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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/673/9225/PAndrewsPF1701.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/673/9225/AAndrewsPF170911.1.mp3
b75333e621a6c4095f4c7e868ae7b6f5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Andrews, Andy
Peter Frederick Andrews
P F Andrews
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Andy Andrews (1924 - 2022, 1811552 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 10 Squadron before he was shot down on a mine laying operation 14 February 1945 and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by 'Andy' Andrews and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Andrews, PF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is Susanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Peter Frederick Andrews known as Andy Andrews, today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Andy’s home and it’s the 11th of September 2017. So, first of all, thank you Andy for agreeing to talk to me today.
AA: Quite alright. Yeah.
SP: So, Andy, tell me about life before the RAF.
AA: I left school at fourteen years of age which was the time that you left education in those days and I went to work as a, in a tailoring, a tailoring shop in Tunbridge High Street. And I was there until such time as I got an interest in flying and I joined the Air Training Corps and they brought my education up a bit by giving me more maths training than I’d had before. And I, in, in those days at seventeen and a quarter you could volunteer for the flying duties in the RAF because it, all air crew were volunteers during the war. And I was, I went into the RAF. As I say I was in a gent’s outfitters and I was there until such time as I went into the RAF at seventeen and a quarter which was the end of 1941, and started. Kitted out at Cardington. Went from there to Blackpool and at Blackpool we did Morse training in the Winter Gardens. And we were there in the winter period and if weather was too bad for physical training we did it in the Tower Ballroom which was quite an experience because the organist on the big organ was usually rehearsing and it was quite, quite an experience. And once we finished at Blackpool we, we went to Lossiemouth in Scotland which was the Operational Training Unit. And the method of crewing up in the RAF in those days sounds a bit chaotic really because you were all in a giant hangar. Air gunners, navigators, bomb aimers, air, wireless operators and pilots and a pilot somehow collected the people that he had spoken to and well, you knew briefly. And he knew one of the gunners because he had, he had been an instructor when the gunner was, James Petre when he was trying for his pilot’s licence which he didn’t manage. Hence the fact he ended up as an air gunner and he picked up him and his mate up as crew. And then they latched on to me and got me as a wireless op and the navigator, whose name was Berry he had red hair so he naturally got nicknamed Red. Plus the fact that the red beret, I mean it was quite obvious why he got the name but, and we formed a crew. We were flying in Wellingtons, training in Wellingtons and we completed, completed our OTU training and from there we went down to York and we went to a Conversion Unit just outside of York called Rufforth. 1663 Con Unit, and we converted on to the Halifax Mark 2 with, with the inlined engine and once we’d, we’d converted successfully on to the Halifax we were sent to a, the squadron which was 10 Squadron. A little village called Seaton Ross or Melbourne and we, we flew in the, they were equipped with the Halifax Mark 3 which was a marvellous aeroplane and we converted on to that. And we had one little hiccup. The bomb aimer that we’d picked up was, he got cold feet and he, he told our pilot Johnny that he wasn’t going to be able to go on ops. So, John told him to go to the medical officer and state his case which he did and he was classed as LMF which is lack of moral fibre and he had his insignia, RAF flying insignia and rank taken away and he was posted off the squadron. But we were very successful in his replacement which was, I’ll be eternally grateful that he came to us because he was so useful to me at a later date when we were prisoner of war. But he was, he come from Liverpool and his name was Stan and he was an ex-docker built quite solid. Again, which I was very grateful for at a later date and he had, he had done a tour in Wellingtons in the Middle East so he’d already done thirty operations when he came to us. He slotted into the crew quite well as one of the senior crews but he was senior to all of us as far as operations are concerned but we started our operating and we did German targets which consisted of the Ruhr which we did a couple of dozen operations. Well, no about twelve operations on the Ruhr which was known to aircrew as Happy Valley and the flak was quite extensive over those areas. Anyhow, we got through nineteen operations and we were feeling confident that we were going to be able to complete our tour without any bother. We’d done a couple of mine laying operations which was code named gardening and was given a, a code name. The one we were on, on, we were briefed to go on was, “Forget Me Nots.” And it was just off the coast of Denmark in the shipping lanes. We were due to drop mines and we took off about 5.30 on the February the 14th, St Valentine’s Day and headed over the coast of Yorkshire heading for, we flew out at five hundred foot to get a bit below the radar so the Germans didn’t pick us up too quick. The, the rest of the squadron, there were just three aircraft on the mine laying which we were one of and the rest of the squadron went to a target called Chemnitz on the 13th of February which was to drag some of the fighter opposition away from Dresden which was the target that night. And they were going to Chemnitz. We were going to drop mines. We took off, flew across to the mainland of Denmark and then climbed to a height of eighteen thousand feet. Headed towards Copenhagen which we were due to, is the island of Zealand and a little farther on we came to the, we would have come to the coast to drop the mines. The bomb aimer had come down to the front to prepare the mines for dropping but unfortunately a JU88 fitted with all the latest equipment had latched on to us. He’d been vectored on to us and once, the method of attack is once they’ve got visual contact with a bomber they flew to the rear of it and slightly underneath so it made the rear gunner couldn’t get a, couldn’t depress his guns far enough to reach them. And then he had a fixed firing .5 gun which actually targeted the front part of the plane. And the part that always fascinates me is the fact that his first burst caught the port wing which was fully alight and the flames were trailing out behind and he he he had another burst which must have killed the pilot because he was sitting immediately above me and I had blood on my battledress which must have been his. And the navigator who sat by my right knee almost within touching distance he had been caught by a cannon shell as well. So, they were both dead. I was in the middle and got away with it apart from superficial cuts and bruises. I stood up, clipped my parachute on and the aircraft was all over the place because the pilot was obviously dead or dying and there was no control and it was flying all over the place and as everybody knows if you’re all over the place in an aircraft it’s difficult to do anything. I was making to move forward to the escape hatch by which time the pilot and the navigator were dead. The mid-upper gunner, the flight engineer and the rear gunner got out of the main escape hatch or the one that you normally come, come in to the aircraft on and they’d gone out. They baled out and just after they had baled out the aircraft blew up and we figured that the nose must have separated from the main fuselage and Stan, who was the bomb aimer he was up in the nose and myself who was about six foot from him must have gone through a gap. And fortunately, as I say I was unconscious and I came to in a silent world because your ears have blacked out. You fall at a hundred and twenty miles an hour. And I looked up and saw the parachute pack but the parachute hadn’t been deployed so I reached up and pulled it. It appears to be in the nick of time because it was only seconds and I hit the deck and in the middle of a field in Denmark. And as I say the, the exiting from the aircraft the flight engineer and the mid-upper gunner got out without any problem at all. Jim, the rear gunner, Jim Petre he turned his guns to, to port because there was, the flames were, were streaming back on the port side and he jettisoned the back doors and fell out backwards. But unfortunately one of his flying boots got caught in the guns so he was trailing out the back and in, with his parachute pack and he realised that he’d got to get away from the aircraft because it was burning and so he pulled the ripcord which yanked him out like a cork out of a bottle and opened the chute. It took him a long while to get down because from sort of eighteen, sixteen thousand feet, whichever we were to the ground takes quite a, quite a number of minutes to get down whereas I was the last one out I reckon and Stan and I we were the first down. And as I say I approached some houses that were alongside the field where we were and I approached some people that were standing out at their gate. They had maps and torches and things to illuminate and whatever, and the first group that I got to said they didn’t want to know because obviously if the Germans, if, if you were a Danish citizen and you helped English aircrew or allied aircrew then you were shot. You were killed. So, they directed me over to another house and I went and knocked the window and that’s when I knew that my hands were quite badly cut and bruised and the blood was running down the window. And they, they took me in and sat me in the chair and dressed my head wounds with paper bandages and I got the escape kit out and the silk map and the currency and all the stuff that goes with it and they pointed, they pointed out where we were in Denmark. And whatever plans I’d got, I was forming in my mind was to get out. Anyhow, they sent for an ambulance and they came along and they picked me up and took me out in a stretcher. Put me in the back of the ambulance. We went down the road, hundred yards not much more I shouldn’t have thought and the back doors opened and Stan was wheeled in. He looked a shocking sight because he was, where Perspex is embedded into his face. It looked a lot worse than what it was. It looked like he was, his whole face was blooded and I suppose mine was must have been the same and I said, ‘You look a shocking sight.’ And he said, ‘Well, you don’t look much better.’ They took us to a hospital which they changed, they put us in an examination room with two benches where we’d laid there and the doctors were checking us over and doing what was necessary and they brought a couple of members of the Resistance in who the doctors interpreted for. One of the doctors could speak really good English and they had said that if we were fit to travel the next day they’d got, they would get us away and we’d get across to Sweden which the other three members of the crew managed to do and they got back to England quite quickly. But unfortunately, somebody in the hospital had blown the whistle on us and said there was two fliers and although they were changing us from ward to ward to keep us out of the way the Germans marched in and took us. And they took us both out on stretchers and they put us in some unbelievable dungeon like place and Stan was one, there was a couple of bunks in there and Stan was in one and I was in the other. And later on that night they brought their girlfriends down to have a laugh at our expense. And as I say Stan was a very forthright ex-docker and he gave them some Liverpool [laughs] swearing which if you, whether they recognised it but they must have known that he wasn’t very happy. And he’d got broken ribs and fortunately the next day the Luftwaffe who had heard that we’d been taken prisoner by the Wehrmacht came and claimed us as their own which they were in the habit of doing because, and they took us to an airfield in Denmark and put us in sick quarters where we were quite well looked after for a few days. I had [sunray] treatment to take the bruising which I was black from just below the thighs up to the chest where the harness was a bit slack and with my delayed drop it did cause quite a bit of damage. But, and Stan also with his broken ribs he had, he had quite a lot of attention and anti-tetanus and all kinds of things and the doctor who could speak, the Luftwaffe doctor who could speak good English, him and Stan had long conversations and argued against the merits of us fighting the Germans and we should never have got into a situation where we were at war with Germany and Stan was saying just how, giving his version of it and it got quite heated. At that particular time Stan had noted or we’d both noted that there was a JU52, one of their transport aircraft was parked not far from the window and they used to take it up for an air test every, every day. And Stan come out with the bright idea that if he could get out to it he’d get us off the ground which I thought might have been a good idea in, in boy’s books but it didn’t sound very convincing to me that he was going to do all that with him with two broken ribs and me strapped up with severe bruising. Anyhow, it came to nothing and we were transported by ship from [pause] from Denmark across the, going over the shipping lanes where the mines had been dropped by other aircraft and we were right in the bowels of this ship and we, but we got away with it. We got to Rostock on the north coast of Germany and then we entrained from there. I had a dodgy experience as we went in to Hamburg. The compartment was reserved just for us and two guards because we had two guards with us and, but the civilians had pushed their way in. In other words, they’d have probably done the same in this country, why should enemy aircrew have a reserved when they were standing in the [laughs] Anyhow, they got that they piled into there and one of them had got me against the door and we were looking out at a part of Hamburg where there wasn’t a stone on a stone. I mean it had been completely obliterated and he was saying, ‘Your comrades,’ and he was trying to undo the door to push me out. Fortunately, the guards with their guns forced them back and put Stan and I up in the corner out of the way and we didn’t have any more trouble from them. But we went from there down to Dulag Luft near Frankfurt which was the Interrogation Centre for all allied aircrew and we were immediately shoved in to solitary confinement and taken out. I think we were there for four days before they were convinced that we’d got no useful information to give us. But we were taken out and chatted to by, or interrogated by German officers who could speak perfect English and offered us cigarette and, ‘Would you like a sandwich?’ And were very nice to us but they had got so much information about 10 Squadron they even knew we’d got a new CO which we’d only had for three weeks, Wing Commander Shannon and they even knew about that. And once they realised that they knew more about 10 Squadron than what I did they released us on to the main camp where we were, I inherited a pair of GI boots which were quite comfortable and we were kitted out and the biggest tragedy as far as I’m concerned we were given a shower and they came along and said I’d got lice so they shaved my head right down to the bone which is the customary mode of hair cutting nowadays but it wasn’t in those days and I was very proud of my mane of hair. And being as we were only short-term prisoners we weren’t there that long. By the time we got back I still only had about half an inch of fuzz on my hair. So, I wore a glengarry all the time, indoors and outdoors. Anyhow, the whole point is that we marched from Dulag Luft down to Nuremberg and that’s where we, we had the unpleasant sight of a B17 had been hit and one of the crew had landed quite near our [pause] we were stopped at that particular time. There was thousands of us but there was also a lot of guards with guns. We couldn’t do anything about it but they’d, the civilians got this American and strung him up to a lamp post. And it’s something that I’ll never forget because I remember his feet twitching as he gave in to the rope and he was killed. But as I say we carried on down to Munich. A big prisoner of war camp called Moosburg and we, night after night if you were lucky you had some kind of accommodation that you stopped at where you had a roof over your head. Apart from that you just slept where you stopped. And we eventually got to the prisoner of war camp and there was far too many people. They were erecting tents, big marquees for people because they had run out of legitimate places. The huts to put us in. And I think there was more people there because they were funnelling in from all over Germany. There was some talk at the time that, the general gossip on the, on the march was that Hitler was going to use us as, as [pause] some kind of reckoning with the allies to get better terms for ending the war but it didn’t happen. But it was one of the things. The funniest thing I ever saw was we had people, guards approaching us with bits of paper saying they’d committed no atrocity. It was that near to the end of the war that they wanted us to sign. And we was, this was at the very end of the march and there was a group of Yanks had got what bits and pieces that they’d got and they’d found an old pram and they piled it all in the pram and they’d got the guard that was guarding their part of the march to put his rifle on the pram and push the pram. And as I say it was that near the end of the war you could get away with quite a lot although things weren’t that good because we were attacked. Fighter Command was sending the American’s Thunderbolts and Mosquitoes and they were having a go at, they were having a go at anything that moved in Germany in those days and when we were on the march they just attacked us and killed five people I believe and wounded quite a few before they realised that we were ex-POWs. But from there we [pause] we were liberated by General “blood and guts” Patton who came in on a jeep with his pearl handled revolvers and we were flown by, after a wait of two or three days at an airfield we managed to get aboard a Dakota and we were flown to Reims in France where Lancasters were coming in nose to tail and we were just piling aboard. We looked a disgusting sight because we were filthy dirty. We wore the same clothes that we were shot down in and I’d had dysentery and we weren’t very nice people to be near. But anyhow, I got aboard a Lancaster and I managed to climb in to the mid-upper turret and as he come over the Channel it was quite a sight to see the white cliffs of Dover. Although we hadn’t been prisoners of war more than three months it was three months that I could have done without. Anyhow, we landed at Cosford. They deloused us which sticking, which is sticking a gun of DDT powder down the front of your blouse and firing it off so that you got white DDT powder coming out of everywhere. And then we had showers, medical examinations, they, they had tables loaded with food which I’d got down to seven and a half stone in that short period and we weren’t able to eat a lot. But we did start to eat again and they gave us money to take on leave and also food coupons which we were told to take home to your family so they could fatten you up a bit and travel warrants and they just sent to the railway system and go home you know. We’ll contact you when you’re ready which was quite a few weeks. I think it was about five weeks and we, I got back to Tunbridge and by which time they hadn’t, they didn’t know that I’d made it and so when I walked down Priory Road, Tunbridge the last communication my father had got was a telegram saying that I was missing from night operations and there would be a letter to follow which he didn’t appear to have got. But they, they were quite convinced that I’d had it and then I put just put in an appearance. And it was the usual kind of festivities. My sister, two sisters were cooking and sitting me down and trying to stuff me with food that I couldn’t eat. Not that vast amount. But over a period of time I got back to normal and went back to the RAF and I ended up as understudy wing warrant officer at Cranwell College which was quite an experience. And that was it. From there I was demobbed and came back. There was no way that I was going to go back to being gentleman’s outfitters so I started doing, learning upholstery and started a business in Tonbridge which is still going to this day. As —
SP: What’s that called? What’s your business called? What was it?
AA: It’s called Botten and Andrews. I had a partner called Botten. Well, he, he’d, he’s died. His son is running the business now and he’s making quite a success of it and. Apart from the fact that I have no financial interests in it he still kept my name over the door. And that was the end of it.
[recording paused]
SP: Ok, Andy. Thanks for, for all that information there. So, you were talking about your base was Melbourne in Yorkshire. Do you want to tell me a little bit about —
AA: Well, yeah, we were a wartime airfield dispersed with huts all, all the way around the perimeter of the airfield and we as a crew had a small hut which we, our two gunners who were senior in age to me, I was the youngest in the crew and they used to forage for fuel for the stove. And the local farmers they bartered their way into getting some eggs and stuff like that and we could do a bit of toast on this tortoise stove and one way or the other where you, as young men we had quite big appetites and although we were fed quite well in the mess but anyhow, we subsidised it with whatever we could get from local farmers and what have you. But as I say Melbourne was one of the few airfields that had FIDO which was fog dispersal and we used it because the two previous mine laying expeditions that we’d been on we’d taken off with the aid of FIDO because it was quite foggy. And the other big experience we had with FIDO was in ’44 just before Christmas lieutenant colonel, the film star, James Stewart came in with a flight of B17s and they had quite a time in the mess with us which was primitive by their standards but they thoroughly enjoyed it. And we used to go out to, if we had a stand down we’d, and there was time there was transport provided to go in to York which was round about twelve and a half miles from Melbourne to the centre of York and we’d chat up the local girls. And we went to a place, we used to go to a place called De Grey Rooms which is still there and they had dances and you used to totter in there after drinking in the local hostelries all evening and subject the local girls to our drunken whatever. Anyhow, the point is that we thoroughly enjoyed ourselves and at the end of the evening there was a small hut by York Station that used to keep open all night I think and you could get a mug of tea and a wad of, of roll with cheese in it and sit there and wait for members of your crew to turn up so that you could share a taxi to get back because you’d missed the last transport. The other thing was, talking of transport Wing Commander Shannon who was the CO of 10 Squadron he, somebody had picked up a bus from York and managed with their information which they must have gained through being either on the buses or mechanics they got it started and took everybody back to 10 Squadron which was quite good. But they parked it outside and he was, he had us in to the main briefing area and he said that he would get to the bottom of it and in the meantime he was going to smarten up the aircrew. No more would they be coming in to the mess for breakfast in their pyjamas underneath their battledress and he was going to have us trotting around the perimeter track to get fit. To make us a lot fitter than what we were. But anyhow, it didn’t really work and he had to give it up in the end. Hence the fact that one of the songs of 10 Squadron was a song that went to the best of my knowledge, “There’s A Flight and B Flight and C Flight you see. But the best of them all is the WT. Fly high. Fly low. Where every go, shiny 10 Squadron will give a good show. Now, old Wingco Shannon he raves and he shouts and he talks about things that he knows nothing about. Fly high. Fly low. Where ever you go, shiny 10 Squadron will give a good show.” And as I say, I think it goes on from there but that’s as much as I can remember and I can’t think of any more that I can tell you. I’m very glad that I got in to Bomber Command although I look back and think that we did a good job and it was great I won’t admit, I won’t admit to saying that I said a lot more religious prayers just before take-off on ops than what I’d ever thought that I would get around to and the feeling in the stomach before you got aboard was unbelievable. Anybody says that they flew over Germany and faced flak and night fighters and weren’t scared I don’t think they were ever there. But it was an experience that I wouldn’t have missed for the world. Well, I couldn’t have missed for the world. I was there and you did it. But I was very glad in hindsight that, that Bomber Command was the place where I’d like to be. So, thank you very much.
SP: Yeah. Well, Andy, thank you on behalf of International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archives. I’d like to thank you for your amazing story and also we got some singing on there.
AA: Yeah. Yeah.
SP: Some amazing singing as well.
AA: Yeah.
SP: Ok. Well, thank you very much.
AA: Yeah.
[recording paused]
SP: I’ll just check it rather retake it than drive all the way back down.
AA: Well, quite.
SP: But we’ll be fine, I’m sure.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Andy Andrews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susanne Pescott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAndrewsPF170911, PAndrewsPF1701
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
License
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CC BY-NC 4.0 International license
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Denmark
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Denmark--Copenhagen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Munich
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Oberursel
Germany--Rostock
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1944
1945-02-14
Description
An account of the resource
Andy Andrews worked in a gentleman's outfitters shop and volunteered for the Air Force in 1941. He trained at RAF Cardington and Blackpool and after crewing up he flew operations with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne. He discusses the members of his crew and describes being shot down by a Ju 88 on his 19th operation during a mine laying operation. His pilot and navigator were both killed and he discusses how he and the rest of the crew baled out before their aircraft exploded. He landed in a field in Denmark badly wounded to the face and hands and was taken to a hospital. He had met some members of the resistance and was preparing to evade when he was captured by the Germans and became a prisoner of war. He discusses his medical treatment and interrogation and witnessing the lynching an American airman during a forced march away from the advancing allied troops. After he was liberated he returned to Great Britain on board a Lancaster as part of Operation Exodus. His family had believed he was dead. After being demobilised he started his own business. Towards the end of the interview he talks about a visit to RAF Melbourne by the actor James Stewart, nights out in York, and Wing Commander Shannon, his Commanding Officer. He also sings a song about 'Shiny Ten Squadron'.
Format
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00:48:09 audio recording
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
10 Squadron
1663 HCU
aircrew
B-17
bombing
crewing up
Dulag Luft
evading
FIDO
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 52
Ju 88
lack of moral fibre
lynching
military living conditions
mine laying
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Cardington
RAF Cranwell
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
Resistance
shot down
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/695/10098/ABarrickMJT161115.2.mp3
f7c1fe9a061922f7ac78869532f1ef46
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barrick, Maurice James Trimigham
M J T Barrick
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Maurice Barrick (b.1925, 1592191 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 467 Squadron. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Barrick, MJT
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SJ: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Sue Johnstone. The interviewee is Maurice Barrick. The interview is taking place at Mr. Barrick’s home in Immingham, North East Lincolnshire, on Tuesday, 15th of November 2016.
MB: Well, good afternoon. Yes, you want to know when I started in the Air Force? My service number was 1592191 which indicated that I was tested for aircrew duties at Doncaster I was [unclear] Doncaster, I was [unclear] who was [unclear] were interviewed at Doncaster so I was the 191st person to be accepted in the Air Force from Lincoln. I served on several stations, got deferred leave for a start actually because I was too young to start training so a leave was granted for me until I reached a certain age then that age arrived and I was posted first of all to, yes [unclear] started my service life at 7 air gunner school which was at Stormy Down in Wales, my initial training was started on the 7th of June 1944, a little bit late in the war years but nevertheless I managed to get on the [unclear] as an air gunnery school during that period, my next station was, [pause] the pilots of these bases were time expired airmen to see that operational duties and now in July of 1944 and they’d taken up to training young sprogs like me, my next station was 16 OTU which was at Stormy Down, Upper Heyford and I spent the next few weeks there at Upper Heyford, we, I went from Upper Heyford to,[pause] posted to 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit which was at Winthorpe which is now at the moment the site for the North Lincolnshire Show as various other things, Winthorpe was a small village just outside Lincoln and it was from that station that the crew went one day and we had a group photograph taken. The next stage was the, to join 5 Lancaster finishing school, at that date we had to do a few weeks in the Lancaster finishing school which was at Syerston later got out because Syerston became a Heavy Conversion Unit and then I didn’t do many operational flights, I joined 467 Squadron in March 1945 and that was at Waddington and the, my stay there wasn’t a very long one, I did operational flying, managed to get one or two operations in and was thankful that I did, I was straining at the leash to get, to get operational so that at least I could get in before the war finished, I had a bit of freedom at one time that the war was finished before I got on the squadron and that would never have done, so I went to the Heavy Conversion Unit which was, which is now the site for North Lincolnshire Show and one or two other activities, I was posted from there to Bomber Command proper which was at Waddington.
SJ: Which squadron was that?
MB: 467 Squadron at Waddington.
SJ: What was your flying time like?
MB: Not all that good, three hundred hours flying time and that was it but.
SJ: What was your role on the aircrew?
MB: I was air gunner, mid-upper gunner and I enjoyed my life on the squadron, it was a bit dodgy at times but we managed to pull through, they managed to, I, only get four operational flights then, we were used, our squadron was used to ferry British prisoners of war home from Germany, twenty nine at a time, and I did two trips with twenty-four, twenty-four young soldiers or sailors who had been prisoners of war [unclear] one cargo back to wing, wing and one cargo back to, oh, I forget the name of the thing now, such a long while ago you know
SJ: Yeah.
MB: It’s, trying to retrieve these memories is not an easy thing, and of course with it being a long time ago I got older!
SJ: You’ve done a lot since as well.
MB: Well, yeah, I’ve been, I’ve had a very good life, I look back at some of the things that I’ve done, and I don’t regret any of them.
SJ: Good.
MB: Including a magistrate and various other clerk of the council and that sort of thing but I retired at sixty five and I’ve enjoyed life since. I don’t know, [unclear] get anymore from this, perhaps we clean those while we [unclear] we had a crash on the first April 1945 there was a fatal air crash at Walsham Wolds, the home of 103 Squadron.
SJ: Elsham Wolds.
MB: Pardon?
SJ: Elsham Wolds.
MB: Elsham Wolds, yeah. And I wasn’t stationed at Elsham Wolds but we all went across to give any assistance that we could.
SJ: What brought you to Elsham Wolds that time then?
MB: I think it was this fatal crash on 1st of August 1942, when the crash happened at Elsham Wolds, the home of 103 Squadron, Black Swan squadron in other words [sighs].
SJ: What did you think of Bomber Command and what they were doing?
MB: I enjoyed it and I thought they did a good job and I get a little bit annoyed when people criticize Harris for not attending various functions but I think he was a good skipper, a good man in charge and I [unclear] bomb aimer.
SJ: Can you say a bit more about your training?
MB: Yeah.
SJ: And why you wanted to join the RAF?
MB: I’d always wanted to serve in the Royal Air Force right from the very first start, I was tested at Doncaster hence my initial number 159, was 21, 2191, [unclear] to be accepted I had to be trained at Elsham Wolds
SJ: Then you had to wait till when you were eighteen?
MB: Well yes, my only snag was I was too young to go on operational flying straight away and I was put on deferred service, in other words wait until you are a bit older son and you can come along and join us which was about in March I think deferred service and eventually I managed to get into the Air Force and we get cracking.
SJ: So, you were a local lad from the area?
MB: Yes, there was no advantage actually but I was local lad of course, was, I was a little bit sad to leave, my number of discharge was something like fifty-one or fifty-two, which was fairly late maybe because I didn’t have much service, actual service with the squadron but nevertheless I managed to get in six operational flights to Germany and enjoy the role.
SJ: What did you do when you left?
MB: When I left the Air Force I went back to where I was joining the Air Force, I was an errand boy at, for Percy Giles at Goxhill, I served, finished my time with him and then from then I went to
Other: [unclear]
MB: [unclear] How did you know that? I went to work on the railway, I was a porter at Goxhill station and eventually, I don’t know that the wages of firemen was greater, much greater than those of porters and so I applied for, I was, I got a transfer to the local [unclear] depot at Immingham where I completed my apprenticeship, it’s very difficult.
SJ: It’s, yeah, so how did they come to dedicate the library in the Immingham museum to you?
MB: Well, I, when I was in civvy street I became a councillor on the Immingham town council and during that time we dedicated a particular part of a building to a museum for the Royal Air Force of course. It was, yeah, several weeks our old crew [unclear] training and the Royal Air Force I’ve always thought the Royal Air Force was really the bee’s knees and any books on, I’ve sort of collected any book I could on the Royal Air Force
SJ: You’ve done quite a bit of research, haven’t you?
MB: I’ve done a little quite a bit, I’d say a small amount, that’s, these are the crew, there’s a bigger picture somewhere on the wall
SJ: Yeah, I’m gonna take a picture of that.
MB: As a crew.
SJ: Can you tell me any funny stories about your crew?
MB: No, we worked very well together we didn’t go out to sort of pull any punches and after the war POP Peter was used to ferry prisoners of war back, twenty-nine at a time, we [unclear] to the aircraft flying back to England
SJ: I bet that was quite rewarding helping the POWs come back
MB: It was indeed very satisfying and I was, I regret I was only on two operations in ferrying people back but it was a service and had to be performed of course and you don’t ask questions in the Air Force, they tell you what to do and you get on with it. And the aircraft we flew in more than any other was P.O.P. Peter and popping all the words and there is some, If you want to take copies of these you may.
SJ: Did you attend many reunions after you left?
MB: No, I didn’t actually, I don’t think I went to any.
SJ: No?
MB: I don’t think so, you tend to think see yourself that’s it, that’s my lot, I’ve done it and that’s the end.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Maurice Barrick
Creator
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Sue Johnstone
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-15
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarrickMJT161115
Format
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00:21:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Maurice Barrick had always wanted to serve in the Royal Air Force. Upon completion of training, he was posted to Bomber Command 467 Squadron at RAF Waddington. He did four operational flights and two trips flying British prisoners of war from Germany. Maurice also remembers a fatal crash at RAF Elsham Wolds. He enjoyed his life in Bomber Command - on being demobbed Maurice went to work as a fireman with the railway.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
16 OTU
1661 HCU
467 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
crash
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Waddington
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/357/5519/PGrimesS1502.2.jpg
2f8c2b7688ba7d1fbece6737ceb4d3a8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/357/5519/AGrimesS151121.2.mp3
3cd700983bd130668fad69444d64890e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grimes, Syd
Syd Grimes
S V Grimes
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Pilot Officer Sydney Grimes (173865, 1271597 Royal Air Force) a photograph, and his logbook. After training as a wireless operator/ air gunner he completed a tour on 106 Squadron at RAF Syerston. After a period as an instructor he joined 617 Squadron for his second tour where he took part in the attacks on the Tirpitz.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Grimes and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Grimes, SV
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SJ: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is myself Sue Johnstone and the interviewee is Sid Grimes. The interview is taking place at Mr Grimes’ home in Mildenhall in Suffolk on the 21st of November 2015.
AG: I was born in a little village called Great Wakering near Southend on Sea, five miles from Southend on Sea and I lived there until I joined the Air Force. I was educated at the village school and also for part of the time at Southend Municipal College. When war broke out I was seventeen and eh my father was a Thames bargeman. I didn’t particularly want to go in the Navy although he would have preferred me to. My my brother went in the Navy, I didn’t want to go in the Army and I thought if I go in the Air Force and volunteered as a wireless operator. At that time I was working for EK Cole Ltd,Echo Radio and I thought if I knew something about the technology of radio I would be doing a more interesting job than as a clerk. So I joined the Air Force. I wasn’t accepted for training immediately because there was a real backlog of training. But I volunteered for wireless operator aircrew and I was called up in 1940. I trained at Blackpool, Yatesbury, Eventon,Madeley and all sorts of places as wireless operator. Eventually I ended up as a sergeant wireless operator at Cottesmore in Rutland. ‘Is this alright?’
SJ: This is absolutely fine, this is fantastic.
AG: Eh, I then met my first pilot a man called Stevens, a Welshman always known as Steve eh and the four others of the crew, so. And eh we trained on Wellingtons until he was eh, he was,treated as a bomber pilot then. We then moved to a conversion unit where we flew Manchesters and Lancasters. Having passed out then we went to a place called Syerston near Newark. Now this 106 Squadron was Guy Gibsons’ Squadron, but he must have known that I was coming because he left the two days before. [laughs] No I don’t know if it was two days but a few days before. So I joined 617 Squadron [think he meant 106] and by that time we had picked up a mid upper gunner and a flight engineer, to the Wellington crew so we were now seven. And I did a tour with 106 Squadron until September 1943. Now that was almost entirely the Battle of the Ruhr. but it did include places like Hamburg and Berlin, one or two other places just outside the Ruhr. So having completed a tour of operations which was a real dodgy period. We had some very heavy losses in the Battle of the Ruhr. In fact my crew was only the second one to finish a tour while I was there. And a lot of people came and went fairly quickly so. I do not know how many losses 617, 106 Squadron had in that period. But we were only the second one to finish. I then went to a place called Balderton just outside Newark which was eh, the residue of the Five Lancaster Finishing School, Five Group Lancaster Finishing School. And eh an interesting thing happened to me there because we hadn’t got any pupils to train then, they were coming in a couple of weeks time and we were getting the place ready. A wing commander arrived, Wing Commander Leonard Cheshire and eh he had been operating in Four Group up in Yorkshire on Halifax’s. And when he came to take over 617 Squadron the AOC said, ‘you had better go and learn to fly a Lancaster.’ So he eh hummed and had and said. ‘Well I have been flying Halifaxs for two years.’ But he said ‘No you go and learn it.’ So he came, he hadn’t got a clue so I went with him and four others. And we became, and I am very proud to tell you, I have in my log book. Four times I flew with him while he learnt to fly a Lancaster. [laugh]. I then went from there to the permanent base for Five Lancaster School of eh, Lancaster Group, School at Syerston again. And I stayed there instructing until I done a foolish thing. I was engaged to be married and I saw in orders that there was a course for RT speech unit, at Stanmore. And I thought if I went to Stanmore, Iris was nursing at Leightonstone, Whipps Cross Hospital, Leightonstone. I would undoubtedly get a couple of days before I reported back. So I did this RT speech course, but I was quite good at it actually and of the six of us I got chosen to form this RT speech unit.
SJ: Brilliant.
AG: At Scampton, so I went there and very foolishly I had to do the same lecture four times a day seven days a week.
SJ: How’s that?
AG: And I met a man called Barney Gumbley, a New Zealander and we sat chat. Chatting in the mess one day and he said. ‘I am going back on ops, are you interested?’ I said. ‘Can we go tomorrow?’ [laugh]. So he said. ‘Well I have got an interview for Pathfinders and an interview for 617 have you any preference?’ I said was, Pathfinders was Eight Group and eh I quite like Five Group, I like the people in it. So I said ‘I’d rather go to 617.’ He said ‘It is a good job you said that, for the rest of us want to go there too.’ [laugh]. Anyway about ten days later I got a phone call to say. ‘There is a van picking you up at nine o’clock tomorrow morning.’ I said. ‘Where are we going?’ He said. ‘We are going to Woodhall Spa to joing 617 Squadron.’ So of I went in this van and eh the mess, the Officers Mess, was eh ‘oh dear, oh dear’ I can’t think of it.
SJ: What Woodhall Spa?
AG: At Woodhall Spa, it was the Officers Mess eh.
SJ: Was it the Petwood?
AG: Petwood.
SJ: Petwood Hotel.
AG: Petwood hotel and eh it dropped me there and I reported at the desk which had, [unclear] which had got a WAAF on it. And she said ‘Oh yes we’ve got a room for you.’ So of I went to this room, Barney Gumley was told I was here but he was up at the flight which was about a mile and a half away. He came down and introduced me to the rest of the crew, but no one thought about booking me in.[laugh]. And I did the two ops to the Tirpitz at Tromso before they suddenly realised I wasn’t on the squadron. [laugh] By that time I had done two trips.
SJ: Then they checked you in.
AG: They checked me in they thought I had better be legitimate. So I, I was with 617 from the September ’44 through ‘til April 1945. We had been flying the Barnes Wallis Tall Boy bomb which was 12000 pounds. And then he came up with a much bigger invention, the Grand Slam which was 22000 pounds. In order to accommodate the big bomb they had to take the bomb doors off, and they took the mid upper turret off, and they took all the armour plating out. They really did a modified Lancaster which only took a crew of five. Took all the wireless equipment out except for a VHF transmitter,RT. So I was surplus so I said to the flight commander. ‘ I have only got three more trips to do can I fly in the astrodome as a fighter observer or something like that?’ He said. ‘Under no circumstances, we are trying to find reasons for loosing weight.’ And he said. ‘You want to go and fly.’ He wouldn’t let me and the crew got shot down on the very next trip. So they got hit by and anti aircraft shell on the port wing and it shot it completely away. So they were on the bombing run at that time which was the dicey part of the trip. Because eh, the special bomb sight that we had, we had to fly straight and level. It was gyroscopically controlled, so you had to fly very accurately with height, speed and all the outside temperatures. And all that kind of thing which you fed in to this computer. So they was, the squadron flew in what was called a gaggle. A geese gaggle you know? The way that they fly in the sky.
SJ: A formation.
AG: A formation, and that gaggle when you were stepped sideways and up and down in a very large box. It was designed so that the whole squadron, twenty of us could bomb without impeding each other, all on the same bombing run. You were actually converging you see, so all the bombs had gone before you actually hit each other. It was a very clever little devise and this anti aircraft shell shot their port wing off so that it. It just spiralled in [unclear], and it was spiralling so quickly, if anybody was still alive in the aircraft eh they couldn’t have got out anyway. And of course the bomb went off as soon as it hit the ground. Because as they were on the bombing run the bomb aimer had already fused it.
SJ: Eh, you don’t remember which aircraft it was?
AG: Yes it is in, I flew with them. ‘Just sit down my dear.’ You can put it off for a bit.
SJ: I was going to pause it for a second.
AG: YZL, PD117 The number of the aircraft was PD117.[pause]
SJ: That looks like a well looked through log book.
AG: Just to prove Wing Commander Cheshire.
SJ: Yes that’s where he had gone to. That is local flying that was part of his training. [laugh]
AG: That’s right, I always say that he was my pupil.
SJ: [laugh] that’s brilliant. So what happened next, you were moved to 617 you were there for a six months.
AG: Yes and I done seventeen trips.
SJ: Seventeen trips.
AG: I got three more to do.[pause] ‘I will just have a cough sweet.’
SJ: That is no problem, that’s fine.
AG: [pause while uwrapping sweet] ‘Will you stay for some lunch?’
SJ: Oh, might do if that’s all right, yeah.
AG: I have got a beef casserole.
SJ: Lovely, that sounds fantastic.
AG: Right, I will heat it up in a minute.
SJ: [Laughs]
AG: ‘Sorry, I was, what was I saying —.
SJ: You were saying about 617 Squadron when you left.
AG: Yes I went to 9 Squadron who was the other squadron that had the tallboys, they didn’t have the grand slam, so that they still needed wireless operators. So I went over to 9 Squadron about three weeks before the end of the war. After we, I then had to make a decision, I was asked did I want to go to the far east against Japan. By that time I was married.
SJ: When did you get married?
AG: I got married the month before I joined 617, Iris never knew I had volunteered to go back.
SJ: Did you ever tell her.
AG: I have since, she was indignant. [laugh]. But I always said she was in a more dangerous situation as a nurse in Whipps Cross Hospital near the docks.
SJ: Was she always a nurse then?
AG: I didn’t say how I met her, did I?
SJ: You didn’t no.
AG: Can I digress?
SJ: Yes that will be fantastic to know.
AG: She was born in Woodford. But before the war they moved down to a little village called Rochford just outside Southend. And she wanted to be a nurse but they wouldn’t take her until she was seventeen. So she came to Echo as a copy typist. I was one of the senior, not senior clerks but I was, I was fairly well up. I had been there three years. And I met her and I liked the look of her and so after I went in the Air Force I kept in touch with her. And you know, I’d spent about no more than about ten days in her company, up to the time we got married. Because when I came on leave we always went to see a London show but that was about the only time we could get of. ’Forgive me sucking the sweet.’
SJ: Oh no it’s fine, not to worry.
AG: And that is how I met her. So I decided I didn’t want to go to the Far East I thought that having done about forty six trips, I didn’t , the neck had gone out too far. So I got posted to 50 Squadron at a place called Sturgate which was up near, in North Lincolnshire. And we were then flying; first of all we were flying prisoners of war from Brussels to England, in the Lancasters. We used to take, I think it was twenty or twenty four depending on what kit they got in the Lancaster fuselage sitting on the floor But they didn’t mind that as long as they were coming to England. After we got all the POWs back we then started bringing people back from leave from Italy. And we used to fly to Naples and pick up about twenty Air Force or Army people at a place call Pernicano, which is just outside Naples. Eh after a time they decided that was going to stop because shipping was available to bring them back in larger quantities anyway. And the Mediterranean was open so they stopped doing it. So I then got posted to do a code and cipher course down at a place called Compton Bassett near Calne in Wiltshire. And having passed that course I got posted to Germany ostensibly to be the CO of a small mobile signals unit. Which was one officer, one sergeant, one corporal and about ten men. When I got there I was told it was based at a place called Stade[?] between Cookshaven and Haverg. So I arrived at Stade[?] and the CO said. ‘Oh I am glad to see you’ he said. ‘I lost my adjutant about two weeks ago you are my new adjutant.’ I said. ‘No I have a mobile signals regiment.’ He said. ‘No I closed that down yesterday and you are my new adjutant.’ But I said. ‘I know something about flying but I know nothing about anything else.’ He said. ‘I’ll teach you.’[laugh] and he became a very good friend of mine. We did all sorts of things together, we got up very early in the morning sometimes at dawn and went and shoot deer. Quite unofficial we hadn’t got a license from the Military Government or anything and it ended up in a very humorous story. We had this, there weren’t very many of us, these base signals on your radar unit, refurbished these units to be sent round to the aerodromes and various places including Berlin. So there were only about fifteen of us I suppose. And we were having dinner or preparing to have dinner one night and we had got deer for dinner. This happened, Military Government people and ourselves we didn’t mingle sociably ‘cause there was nothing else. So they arrived about four o’clock and didn’t look like moving. So the CO said to me ‘What do we do?’ I said ‘Well as they are the guests of our mess this evening you had better invite them to dinner. And as they are our guests they won’t be able to do anything about it.’ So they sat down to dinner with us and ate deer. And they did let us know that they were aware of it. I think they had been told off, they had a [unclear] [laugh]. Well that, I ended up demobilised in August 1946 and I got reinstatement rights if I went back to Echo, but I was offered a short service commission of two years. But if I had taken that it would have meant in all probability the Air Force would have been reducing in size so much that I would have then been demobilised. And I wouldn’t have had reinstatement rights, having been in what was the regular Air Force for two years. So eh I went back to Echo. And so as I say I didn’t know anything about being an adjutant and certainly nothing about earning my living in civvy street. But I was fortunate, the man who interviewed me was the deputy chief accountant of EK Cole Ltd. And he knew because I had told him that I was keen on cricket because he was interviewing me in depth. He said ‘That’s a good thing I am a life member of Lancashire.’ So he took me on his staff and he taught me accountancy. I did take a correspondence course was meeker compared with what he told me. So I was never able to be a chartered accountant because I didn’t take articles. I was earning my living, by that time I was increasing my family.
SJ: How many children have you got?
AG: I’ve got three, two of them became nurses and one, the boy went into insurance.
SJ: You had two girls and a boy.
AG: I am proud of them all.
SJ: Oh yeah I don’t blame you.
AG: So I was in the deputy chief accountants department. Then he got promoted to be the chief accountant and then he became promoted to eh; financial secretary and accountant to a number of subsidiaries. So as he went up my situation went up with him.
SJ: You went up as well, did you enjoy that?
AG: I couldn’t have been an accountant in a professional office because that would have been dull. That would have been checking, checking, checking, checking. What I liked about being in industry, I was always in a place that was making things and you could go there and see it all happening. It was accountancy, it was very important accountancy, but eh —.
SJ: Very different from your RAF days though?
AG: Yes very much so. I was an active member of the 617 Squadron Association and we went to a number of reunions in Canada, Australia, New Zealand eh France as a unit, we’ve gone and made friends wherever we went. I haven’t been to the last couple number of places because Iris became, eh unreliable, she was unsteady. I couldn’t take her onto aircraft and coaches and things like that. She came to, she came to Australia and New Zealand and to Canada but the —, When we went to France and Germany and the Netherlands we went by coach and ferry, she hates flying.
SJ: [laughs]
AG: ‘Now where have I got to?’ Eventually we got taken over, first by Pye from Cambridge and then Phillips who are Dutch of course. But the British office was at Croydon and eh I became the financial accountant, financial director in a number of subsidiaries around the group. But I ended up, I always wanted to be somewhere near Southend because my parents were still alive. And I owed a lot to my parents, I didn’t want to move right out of their orbit. And I then went to Canvey Island to a components factory. First of all as the financial director and then as the managing director. And from there I went back to Southend as the eh; managing director of Echo Instruments which made instrumentation for industry. Then I retired.
SJ: How long have you been retired now?
AG: I retired when I was, I retired finally when I was sixty three. I first retired at sixty one when I left Canvey. And I only had been retired for about three months when my boss at Cambridge rang me up and said. ‘I am in trouble, can you help me?’ I said. ‘Well, help you in what sense?’ He said. ‘Can you come back and do a job looking after a subsidiary until I find a, a permanent managing director?’ So I did and I stayed two years.
SJ: [laugh] Why not?
AG: But it was a good period for me because I was drawing full pension and then I was drawing full salary so it made a nest egg for me when I did retire.
SJ: So it was worth it then?
AG: Yes; well I stayed in Shoeburyness just outside Southend until twelve years ago. But one of my daughters lived in West Row which is just to the West of Milden Hall and another one lived in Barton Mills.
SJ: I was going to ask why you moved up this way?
AG: Well my son was in Kent and the journey from Shoeburyness up to here was one hundred and ten miles. And when I got to eighty I decided that that was too far. So we moved up here to a place just the other side of Mildenhall, Brickcone Hall[?] and eh, it was too large but we loved it. And then Iris had trouble keeping her balance, damaged her hip. So I decided we had to be on the same floor so we moved here. Which was a retirement bungalow which suited us down to the ground.
SJ: And it is a lovely complex, it really is nice.
AG: It is, I sit here and we have mallard ducks and swans on the river and I watch them and they come and look at me and squawk.
SJ: [laugh] And you sit and look at them?
AG: I try, I do, if Iris was here with me I’d love it. But she is only two miles away.
SJ: That is not far. How long has she been in the care home?
AG: Since January, so eleven months. But she is happy there and she is safe. You see I had her home here at first after she came out of hospital eh, but I couldn’t look after her during the day and the night. And I was getting totally exhausted because every time she moved I woke up. So we decided that my savings would go to the wall and I would put her in the care home. And she is in a lovely little care home. She is well cared for and she is safe, so —.
SJ: Does she like it there?
AG: At first she missed us all because she saw the family every day. Well now I go in about five days out of the seven and the two girls go once. Because Rosalind is a practice nurse in Bury so ,
SJ: That is not far away?
AG: No. And she is married to a Canadian who eh and they go backwards and forwards. I think they have a permanent passage booked on aircraft [laugh]. And eh Jill has got four sons and five grandsons, my great grandsons, so we are largely together. And my son comes up —.
SJ: He is the link end.
AG: Yes. He comes up for a week about every six weeks, because he has retired now.
SJ: Has he got any family?
AG: No; he married a lady who was seven years older than him and it never happened, so —.
SJ: That is quite a big family you got then, grandkids and great grandkids.
AG: Yes, I am a very lucky man. Having survived the war I look round and think, ‘This family wouldn’t have survived if I had bought it.’
SJ: I know, yeah.
AG: Well they might have done, Iris might have married someone else, but.
SJ: It would have been different though.
AG: They wouldn’t have had my genes.
SJ: No exactly [laugh]
AG: I’ll heat the —.
SJ: I shall put this on pause shall I?
AG: Since I retired, lived in Shoeburyness, Mildenhall and here there has been a resurgent of interest in 617. And also strangely in Pye Cambridge. And I have been recruited, to say to do this kind of interview for Pye Cambridge. Because they are making a record of the activities of Pye in Cambridge, because it has been there ever since it was formed.
SJ: So they are getting a history together of that part of Pye?
AG: There is a historical museum which is bringing all these records together. So they are doing what you are doing and making recordings and eh —.
SJ: It is great it needs doing. I mean how do you feel about the project? How do you feel about the Bomber Command Archive project?
AG: Lets say this. After I have had a session like this or with John Nichol . Or with other things the squadron seems to send to me. Eh, like the Cambridge stamp centre and signing things happened. Undoubtedly I have a disturbed couple of nights. Because it has brought it all back. But then the family encourage me and I totally accept the fact, if people like me didn’t say what this was like. The written word is not necessarily understood. But I think if they hear peoples voice as you are doing now, it might stop wars happening. I thank my lucky stars, that my son didn’t ever have to go through the trauma of a six years war. It was, don’t get me wrong. I think it was necessary. Hitler wouldn’t have got stopped in any other way. And I think in a way Hitler getting stopped, Mussolini and Stalin also got stopped. Because the consequences of the nuclear bomb was so dreadful that it stopped. And I don’t think there would have been a nuclear bomb if it hadn’t have been for the war, ‘cause the money would not have been found.
SJ: Yeah.
AG: Do I sound too serious?
SJ: No. I completely agree with you. Lessons need to be learnt from the past, don’t they?
AG: I think those of us who went through it. Have kind of a duty to make sure these subsequent generations knew what it was like.
SJ: Do you feel this generation and future generations will understand how it was?
AG: It’s difficult to say. But John Nichol tells me his book had a huge print and he has sold a lot of copies. So that if it get put into houses and families and people must have been buying it to read at home. It didn’t all go to libraries.
SJ: No not at all.
AG: The younger people eh, might well have learnt from it. And the BBC have done a number of programmes about the Air Force and the war in general. The Navy, all those aspects have been fired[?] some of it must have sunk in.
SJ: Yes you would like to think so.
AG: Yeah. And I think we have a duty to make sure that it became available. But it is not something that I enjoy.
SJ: Yes I completely understand, yeah.
AG: Because, well my family were fortunate. My brother was in the Navy, he was on the Arctic Convoys on HMS London, and eh —.
SJ: What was your brothers’ name?
AG: Kenneth, Kenneth George. And he, he went in the Navy. Largely because of my father I think. My father was Thames Bargeman. There’s Thames barges on the wall.
SJ: Yeah, I noticed them when I came in, yeah.
AG: My father was a Freeman of the River Thames. And he was on Thames barges and then on Thames tugs.
SJ: Did your father have military background?
AG: No, in the First World War he was a barge captain. And he, he used to load ammunition at Woolwich Arsenal, and take it over to France to a place called St Valerie.
SJ: He had a very important job.
AG: He used to take it across the channel. Through all those minefields and what have you.
SJ: Very risky.
AG: Yes it was. And at the end of the war he was presented with the Maritime Medal.
SJ: Oh brilliant.
AG: But you know the chances that he took as a civilian. He should have got much more than that.
SJ: I know. What was you fathers name?
AG: George, George David. He lived until he was ninety four, the last six years with us at Shoebury.
SJ: You mentioned your brother. Did you have any more brothers or sisters?
AG: No just the brother. My mother had twins which were still born, my brother and I —. They really were, they were extremely poor in a sense. Because in the shipping slump of 1931, 32 the barges were laid up all over the East Coast. And he just got on care and maintenance pay which was hardly anything. And with that he was trying to run himself on the barge, tied up to a buoy and the family at home. So his savings gradually went. So he had to, he had a break down eventually about 1934. And he stayed on the water in a sense because he became the hand in an oyster dredger on the river Roch at Rochford. And he did that eh, about eight months in the year. Then he was unemployed for the rest of the year. So he dispersed his savings looking after his family really. So I did have a very big moral obligation to my parents who were the salt of the earth.
SJ: Yes they sound like they were, which was great. I think that generation they were, weren’t they?
AG: They were family minded.
SJ: They were mm.
AG: They, [pause] I don’t think they bought themselves a Christmas present. Where my brother and I always had one.
SJ: Yeah, what were your family Christmases like?
AG: The family, my father had one, two, three. Three daughters, three sisters and two brothers. And one of the aunts was a school teacher and she took a fatherly interest. So silly isn’t it, she was an aunt, she couldn’t take a fatherly interest [laugh]. An aunt interest in my brother and I. And he won an open scholarship, a total scholarship to Clarks College when he was thirteen.
SJ: Oh brilliant.
AG: It was the only one on offer in the whole of the area, and he won it. He went to Clarks College. By the time I got to and I was four years younger. By the time I got to the age when I was sitting exams. They couldn’t afford for me to be another drain on the family finances. So eh, I went to work at Ecko.
SJ: How old were you when you started there?
AG: I was fourteen.
SJ: Fourteen mmm. How did you feel about working, starting work so young?
AG: It was the common thing.
SJ: It was mmm.
AG: I was on the, I was at the village and I stayed at the village. I was only at the municipal college for a short time and I was working and doing it evenings. But the village, I was almost. Hardly any of us did further education but my family believed in it. So I did further education and my brother was good example to me that he had won an open scholarship.
SJ: That was brilliant.
AG: But the village had a tradition of going to work at fourteen.
SJ: Yeah. But they did didn’t they? I mean they is eighteen now when they leave school. It is a big difference these days.
AG: But I would say this about the great working school; it was first class. And they had dedicated people. We had two Welshmen who were school masters there and they gave up their Saturdays for sport. They never let us go to a fixture without one of them being there. You know it was —. After school they’d, we would go into the playground and get a matting wicket and play cricket. And they always did it in a —. I look at teachers these days and I think to myself. ‘You should have lived with those people, you would have learned an awful lot.’ They believed in the welfare of their students. Where as now they seem to want —. [Interruption]. ‘Come in.’ [shout]
SJ: Shall I put this on?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Syd Grimes
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AGrimesS151121
Creator
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Sue Johnstone
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:54:01 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Sydney Grimes grew up near Southend and joined the RAF as a wireless operator in 1940. He flew a total of 41 operations - 24 operations with 106 Squadron and 17 operations with 617 Squadron. He then served on 9 Squadron at RAF Bardney for 2 months and 50 Squadron at RAF Sturgate for 3 months, where he assisted on the return of prisoners of war in Operation Dodge. After demobilisation he returned to his old company and retired as the managing director.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Rutland
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1943
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Richard James
106 Squadron
50 Squadron
617 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crewing up
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Manchester
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Balderton
RAF Bardney
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Scampton
RAF Sturgate
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
Tirpitz
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/329/3489/PSmithNG1701.1.jpg
4468b6f3352faded13c6188715151f2b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/329/3489/ASmithNG161203.2.mp3
7eaf605fe11d56646d7146cefca804e4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, Norman George
Norman Smith
Norman G Smith
N G Smith
N Smith
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview and a video interview with Norman George Smith (b. 1924, 427226 Royal Australian Air Force). He flew 10 operations as a pilot on 463 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-12-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Smith, NG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RB: Now Norman have you got any questions for me?
NS: No, not really.
RB: Okay, well I’ll read this interview heading that I’ve got and then perhaps answer any questions you might have. This is an interview being conducted by the International Bomber Command Centre, and I am Ron Baron and I’m talking to Norman George Smith.
NS: That’s right, correct.
RB: And I’m in Western Australia, and also present is Kathy, Norman’s daughter, the date is 3rd December, 2016.
NS: Correct.
RB: Now can you tell me where you were born and when you were born?
NS: 1924, er, in Perth, then spent a bit of time Armadale afterwards.
RB: Right, can you tell me a little bit about your family, your parents, brothers and sisters?
NS: Roy my brother was the next one down, then had sisters, two sisters.
RB: And their names?
NS: Their names [coughs], what the hell were their names, Kathy?
KY: Lynne and Beattie.
NS: And Beattie that’s right, yeah Beattie. Lynne I always forget her.
RB: Lynne and Beattie
NS: She’s named after my mother.
RB: What did your father do what work?
NS: He was what they call a bush boss, he goes into the forest and worked out which trees to fall and made sure that the people picking up trees to take them to landing [unclear] were doing the right thing, picking up the right trees what I suppose had fallen down.
RB: Let’s go on to your schooling now, what age did you start school?
NS: When I was six at Whittaker’s Mill, I just lived about a couple of hundred yards from the school and in Whittaker’s Mill.
RB: And how long were you there at what age did you leave?
NS: That place there would be about eleven, eleven or twelve I think it’d be, and then we went down to Perth, but by this time I’d become a assistant in the timber mill workshop [coughs] and no more school.
RB: You didn’t like school?
NS: Well I wasn’t [unclear], wasn’t too bad at times I suppose but was too much fiddling around.
RB: When you were in the mill what sort of work did you do?
NS: Engineering, and whenever there was a [coughs] trouble in the mill itself at the weekend the engineer and myself as offsider picked up the bearings in the mill and all that sort of thing and we had a pretty good time together.
RB: What sort of wages did you get then, what sort of pay?
NS: Pay?
RB: Yeah.
NS: Oh gosh I’ve forgotten what pay it was but it was pretty good and I remember working at the mill, when I worked in the mill before I went to Perth and it was pretty good. We used to have, sometimes I used to work with the blacksmith and other times they’d be down in the mill itself and do a bit clearing out on the benches.
RB: What sort of hobbies did you have then? Did you enjoy —
NS: Swimming I did a mainly going [unclear] up and down the creeks looking for junies [?] there a sort of a prawn but in the water the white mermaid there only about two inches long, three inches, four inches some the big ones, a bit dirty they’d be about —
RB: Did you eat them? Were they tasty?
NS: Oh yes of course they are yeah, put them in water and boil them up like you do a prawn and there, there just like a prawn that’s all, there in the water, in the rainwater creeks not in the salt.
RB: As you got older did you have any other jobs?
NS: No I don’t think I did really, er none that I, none that I had pay for, might do a bit of self, self, self work, but Roy and I, Roy my brother we’d go off to the bush hunt around for kangaroos and things. Chop a bit of wood on a fallen tree that’s why what happened one day when I went to chop a bit of wood off the end of a tree and instead of hitting the wood straight away I got tangled in a bit of bush the back of the axe and it swung up like that and Roy was standing on the tree and it swung up to him and cut the back of his knee, and had to carry him down to the schoolteacher’s house, the schoolteacher took him away and took him down to Pinjarra to get fixed up, but saved his leg anyway.
RB: When did you become interested in flying?
NS: Oh that’s when I rescued a boy that was in the swimming at the bottom of the falls, out in the middle and he got a cramp but he started to sink and why [unclear] having a bit of a sunbake on the rocks decided so we dived in and grabbed hold of him but he pretty near drowned the two of us, had hold of me around the neck but anyway I got him, got him to the side and he was all right and took him home eventually didn’t seem any, he apologised to me said he was sorry sort of thing. His family reckoned I was pretty good saving him and they invited me down to Perth for holiday that’s when I went down to Perth and the first morning I when I went outside the house had a look out and overlooking the airfield heard the Tiger Moth flying away, suddenly flying away and that’s what I was going to do that’s me fly an aircraft and, er, all the books I’d been reading and monthly magazine learn how to fly a plane and I knew, pretty well knew there and then how to fly the plane and well, well eventually anyway I joined the Air Cadets and well I was going around Air Cadets, Air Cadets in Perth but I was pretty, I was gonna be an aircraft pilot anyway.
RB: When the war came, how old were you when the war started?
NS: Er, I wasn’t, I wasn’t eighteen yet. Eventually I turned eighteen and that’s when I joined the actual Air Force itself that was, that was just after my eighteenth birthday.
RB: Where did you go for your initial training?
NS: Clontarf, that was, no flying but what do you call it an ex school where all the pupils were women and I checked out, waiting for the cleaners to clean up the place, most of the pupils I think had shit on the floor, they cleaned up the place for us anyway and took us in from the tents we were in tents for about a fortnight, took us inside gave us a bedroom.
RB: How long were you there?
NS: Oh, about a month, two months, then we went off to Cunderdin then, where the Tiger Moths were that was what we had after.
RB: What was your first posting then from Clontarf?
NS: Clontarf, after, after, Merredin, yes down to Merredin.
RB: And what did you do there?
NS: That’s where we started to fly planes, and had a pretty good time chasing bloody emus in the planes making out we were gonna shoot them yeah yeah, on the beach firing at people in boats, little boats, make out we were going to shoot ‘em, dive on ‘em —
RB: What sort of aircraft were they?
NS: Tiger Moths, yeah, DH82A, but they were really good planes Tiger Moths.
RB: How long were you there?
NS: Oh, went up, from there we went to Cunderdin where we started really learn how to fly and it was pretty good become pilots eventually had to go to Geraldton, after Geraldton, I, I was up near [unclear] but I came back to Geraldton I knew the place you know, I knew all the corners and all the little, quite a few little huts they had two beds in ‘em, where people should go in when there’s any bombs, bombs coming over, instead of that we were using them as little beds to put the women in while we sort of cuddled up to them.
RB: How did you feel when you first went solo?
NS: I went solo eventually, and by that time I did pretty good because the chap that’s teaching me how to fly and everything apparently I was pretty good on doing the loop de loop, loop de loop, and he used to boast about me to all the other teachers and that in the mess, and I didn’t realise this but he used to keep me pretty near on the same thing all the time and I got fed up with him and complained to [coughs] to the head office. And the chap there he said, ‘What’s the matter?’ I said, ‘Well listen I can’t carry on being learnt anymore about the aircraft so I don’t think I can fly anymore you better take me down off this course.’ And they said, ‘Why?’ I said, ‘Because the bloody teacher there keeps on telling me to do the same thing over and over again.’ And er, anyway they promised me a well they would fix that up, and then they gave me another teacher so okay I settled in quite well and became quite good. But apparently I still had the plane, not the plane the people that looked after me they realised that my first teacher that I wanted to get out of all he was doing was boasting about how I could fly loop de loop and anyway.
RB: And that was still in Tiger Moths?
NS: In Tiger Moths oh yeah, that’s all they had here in Australia at the time.
RB: Did you make any mates while you were there?
NS: Any what?
RB: Any friends, mates?
NS: Oh one or two, Bill, Bill was one, Bill Adam, he was the main one. There was only about one because quite a few of them didn’t come from Western Australia they came from Eastern States, but I got along pretty well the new teachers.
RB: Did you have any troubles there any problems?
NS: No only, only thinking that the Japanese were looking after, tearing after me one night when I was on guard duty and I heard these footsteps, and I said, ‘Okay halt or else I shall fire.’ And this was about three o’clock one morning and I still heard these footsteps so I let go of the rifle and bang, three o’clock in the morning woke the whole school up, and turned out it was aircraft hangars that looked the rooves, the rooves were false never went up to the roof about three or four feet from the roof then up to the roof they had can canvas and of course when the breeze blew it shook the bloody canvas and sounded as though somebody was walking around, and ‘cos I, when I let the rifle go off the CO didn’t like it much not being woken at that time in the morning three o’clock but, er. He said I did the right thing, but at that time it was wrong shooting at that time in the morning waking everybody up, but that was one of the times when I did the right thing but at the wrong time.
RB: When you were at Geraldton did you fly any other aircraft?
NS: Not there, not in Australia, no, no Tiger Moths that’s all we had, and then I got my wings went over to England, over first to America then to England, but got to England that’s when I started on other aircraft to fly.
RB: How did you get, how did you get to the UK from Australia when you were?
NS: By boat, boat to America that was in the coast of America, got that end I went ashore then they took us to an air, a big Air Force base just outside Boston and that’s when I, we were having a meal one day, three of us, three fellas and myself having this meal some ladies next door to us one of them come over and said, ‘You come from Australia?’ I said, ‘Yes, that’s right, Australians.’ And she said, ‘Coming from Australia’ She said. ‘How did you learn to talk English?’ It showed you how much they knew about Australia in those days, but as it was I tried to explain to her and away she went she was quite happy about it. But, you can have some fun —
RB: And then you went by ship from the USA to the UK?
NS: Went from USA to America to Australia —
RB: To the UK?
NS: In the UK yeah, and then started doing a bit of flying when we go to the UK.
RB: So what was the first posting in the UK then? What aircraft were you flying? This would be in 1943 when you arrived.
NS: I’m just trying to think what aircraft we were flying then, flying first. Ansons, yeah Ansons that’s right, Anson Bombers we started flying them. And then went produced up that little bit further and started taking [unclear] Ansons, what’s the other ones.
RB: When you got onto your first squadron what squadron was that?
NS: Er, that was 463.
RB: And the aircraft type you flew there?
NS: They, they were, 463 now what were they flying, they were flying, they were flying Stirlings, Stirling aircraft, so we started flying Stirlings and then the next thing we know we were equipped with Lancaster Bombers
RB: And which squadron were you flying with the Lancasters?
NS: ER, 463, and the only time I got changed, when the war finished in Europe because we after 463 to 467 and waited for our ground crew to go out by boat they had to they were going to Japan. Actually we did that we made [unclear] to go out but funnily enough the Yanks dropped their silly little bomb and finished the whole show and there was no more bombing it simmered down.
RB: Did you do any other flights before you came back to the UK?
NS: Oh we, a few times, a few times we got out to Germany and France to pick up ex bomb, ex people that were captured by the Germans.
RB: Prisoners of war?
NS: Prisoners of war you see and taking them home and I put a sign on the side of the aircraft where the door was I decided to tell them welcome aboard curvaceous hostesses about and as soon as they got inside the aircraft they said, ‘Where’s the hostesses?’ I said, ‘You’ll have to put up with that bomb aimer today.’ He was in charge of them all, I hadn’t, I don’t know, working on the Lancasters.
RB: Did you enjoy flying the Lancaster?
NS: Yes, definitely, beautiful plane, it was one of the best planes I’ve ever flown in I reckon, but there’s Boddingtons, oh quite a few different planes, and, but the Lancaster was the best.
RB: When you were flying operations from Waddington did you have any incidents when you were over Germany?
NS: A few times, over Germany, actually ran out of petrol just about one day we were going to get home but ‘cos we went way out of place we went up over one of the didn’t matter what it was some other country up that way that wasn’t in the war and as I was going along I could see these aircraft, not aircraft, bombers big rockets going off and they followed us they were about two mile away at the time and turns about that, I said to the navigator, ‘Look at them because better alter the course’ I said, ‘We’re going the wrong way.’ And anyway after we come over The Channel, he said, ‘We better bale out get everything out and dive down to the North Sea’, and I said, ‘Well I’m not going to do that too bloody cold out there to get under water so I’m going to try and make England.’ And we made it only just not to our home base another aircraft, another aerodrome and the engineer there checked the bloody petrol down, and he said, ‘We shouldn’t have even it was empty, the tank was empty.’ Which means that we just managed to make it, but they filled me up with petrol, and the next couple of days we were there for a couple of days it turned out it was an American place and they treated us pretty well, we charged them a pound each to come round and have a look over the aircraft, we got quite a bit there was a lot of beer bought, all, all our money we had, all of it we got paid, but we spent most of the money on drink, and we’d all had a booze up.
RB: So when you finished bringing the prisoners of war back to the UK you were finished then, when did you get back to Australia?
NS: Well that Christmas, we got after the war finished in Europe we got back to Australia and as I landed all my family were there to welcome me back home. ‘Oh come on, welcome home, welcome home.’ And my dad was the last one he shook hands with me and he said, ‘It’s good to see you home, good luck Norm.’ And he said, ‘But I’ll tell you why, you better not tell me that you’re not, you’re not a boy anymore you’re a man.’ He said, ‘You’re smoking.’ And I said, ‘Yes dad.’ And he said, ‘Well you had to learn that in the Air Force.’ And I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘When I made the cigarettes for you there was five for you and one for me.’ I said, he said, ‘It’s the same with the beer, you used to drink my beer.’ When it was Fosters, Fosters. He said, ‘I allowed you to drink the bottle empty.’ And he said, ‘Pretty good beer wasn’t it?’ I said, ‘Oh yes pretty well.’
RB: So when you left the Air Force what jobs did you have?
NS: Oh crickey, dozens. I went up to [unclear] oh by that time I’d got rid of my wife, I married in England, I married a girl in England before I left and she arrived back in Australia two or three months later. On a boat what they called the bride, the bride ship because all the, all the women on it were brides come out to all the Australian soldiers they’d married and she did mine was the same. I think that she played naughty and one of the [unclear] and went farming and she started playing up a bit till eventually I caught her one night having a naughty with a boyfriend and so I told her that she better come, she told me to go and see her boyfriend and tell him to come for breakfast he’d run away, but he wasn’t running away at all, he just went away, left the place, left his pay behind a fortnight’s pay left that behind, and told her that he’d gone so she come back to me and said would I stop with her and I said, ‘Well okay.’ I said, ‘But don’t expect me to be a good boy a good man to you.’ I said, ‘He’s ruined everything.’ Anyway she put up with me for a bit, had a daughter, looked after young Kathy, Kathy was the youngest one, Kathy was about eight years, about eight years between the kids, and anyway she turned to me one night and had a couple of naughties with me and the next thing I know Kathy arrived.
RB: So now you’re retired and they're looking after you.
NS: Yes.
RB: That’s good.
NS: That’s right.
RB: Yes.
NS: Then Kathy and I went one day to see the ex-wife where she was living with a chap at a farm and she was living with him, and then she goes into hospital and the next thing I know she dies, so that get rid of her. I finally got another woman and finished up marrying her and then she damn well died on me too.
RB: Well Norman thank you very much for talking to me and doing this really appreciate it.
NS: Hopefully I remembered all, my memory is not so good as it used to be but at a hundred and, I’m heading towards a hundred I’m ninety-two years old at the moment, but actually I’m ninety-three in three months, March I turn ninety-three.
RB: Well I do appreciate it and I’m sure they will when we get, we get this back home, thank you very much.
NS: Well if there’s any question you want to know?
RB: I think you’ve covered everything I think you can remember, yeah that’s great I’m going to turn this off now.
NS: Righty oh.
[Background conversation over tea and cake.]
RB: I’m going to put this back on.
KY: Frank were you ever up at Metheringham? Dad was actually at Metheringham in the beginning and then he was sent down to Waddington later but his initial training and flights were in Metheringham.
F: Scampton, and Skellingthorpe all round there.
KY: So that area of Lincolnshire that’s the central area was there other major bases through England?
F: No this was the main base, Bomber Command was divided into several groups, we were 5 Group was we had our own pathfinders and we had the Dambuster squadron, [unclear] we had our own pathfinders and we developed the ground, ground marking of the targets as well, by Cheshire, Wing, Group Captain Cheshire the last six months of the war.
RB: That was with Lancasters again was it?
F: Yes.
RB: Did they use any other aircraft for that?
NS: Er, no, they Mosquitoes, Mosquitoes were used.
RB: Mosquitoes.
NS: Mosquitoes were used extensively by the pathfinders and also for um [unclear]. That was one of the planes I was looking for.
RB: What the Oxford?
NS: Couldn’t remember what plane it was.
RB: Have you still got your log book Frank?
F: Yeah got it here.
RB: Oh okay. So what’s gonna go, go in a museum somewhere.
[General background conversation]
KY: Unfortunately dad has his flying jacket the nice big thick furry lined one — it was left on the farm it was left on the back of the door. Unfortunately it got left there.
RB: That was in December 1944.
NS: That’s right yeah.
RB: Did your flying take the same sort of route that.
F: Much the same.
RB: Start with the Tiger Moth and Anson and Oxford.
F: Oxford, then Wellington, then Stirling, and then Lancasters.
RB: Yeah, yeah.
F: Virtually the same.
NS: Tiger Moth —
F: Great plane, great plane.
[General background conversation]
RB: How did you find the conversion from single engines, to twins, and then to multis?
F: The only single engine was the Tiger Moth that’s all it was very simple to fly.
RB: Yeah Norman says that.
F: But the Anson was quite good the funny bit about the Anson was made by the same people that made the Lancaster, there was still a bit of a fear that when you crossed the fence in a Lancaster there was still the same feeling as the Anson, it was built under the aircraft the same sort of buzz in the same way.
NS: Did you ever fly Stirlings?
F: Oh I flew bloody Stirlings.
NS: Bloody things —
F: Terrible plane, the back of the Stirling was like a big truck, like a big truck with a wing on the top [unclear].
RB: They were just hard to fly were they?
F: No they were terrible things to taxi because you had to have your foot outside foot here and you had to brake as well because to taxi you’ve got to put you’ve got to use your foot and brake at the same time and you just didn’t have enough hands for it, if the wind was blowing — And then you run out the air.
NS: Not enough air.
RB: Oh right, the air always. Did you guys ever bomb in Stirlings?
F: No, no, no, only practice bombing that’s all.
NS: When I was in the Air Force the best place every day was in the officer’s mess [laughs] down a few beers.
F: That’s right yeah. We had a before you start the Stirlings in the morning you had to turn them over by hand because the oil could run down into the sill at the bottom there get a little oil on top if you start it it would blow the cylinder head off all had to be turned over, turned over by hand before you start.
RB: You guys didn’t do that you had ground crew.
F: Funny enough we used to do exactly the same thing with the Shackletons which is a much later aeroplane but based on the —
NS: What still hand start them?
F: No, no, no turn them over because the oil used to collect.
NS: What stay in the bottom?
F: Yeah. We had a rather nasty accident to a nice young little WAAF when we were on Stirlings because the little WAAF’s used to be delivering things around the aerodrome at night in little Ford 10 vans and they got off [unclear] but the girls were not supposed to drive under the aircraft but they found that they could drive under the outside engine of the Stirling ‘cos the engine was very high and keep under it a couple of Lancasters came in one night the girl was three months out of training school and of course in the night you wouldn’t tell the difference between the Stirling and the Lancaster in the dark and she was driving under the outside engine and took the top off her head.
Oooh.
F: Only a kid out of drivers’ school.
KY: My mum was a driver but in the Army and she was English and she grew up in County Durham up in the North, and she was down driving at the same base where dad was, I think there might be a picture in there of mum and couple of others who she was friends with.
[Pause]
NS: There’s a photo taken in 2004 when we went to Coningsby and that’s where Bull Creek no that’s Coningsby, that’s the, that was Mickey the Moocher then. That’s a copy of Frank’s plane, is that right Frank?
F: Yeah.
NS: So that’s the Lanc he used to fly and that’s a replica, they made a replica of it. That’s at Coningsby [coughing] [unclear].
F: About ten or twelve years ago I had a phone call from the secretary of the 56 Squadron asking me did I have a current picture of Mickey the Moocher because on one of the next conversions of the Lancaster they were going to become Mickey the Moocher and they wanted it, I didn’t have any black and white photographs and I went down to the local library and found a Walt Disney book, and I realised Mickey’s, Mickey’s mouth always the same colour, always the same.
NS: Oh yes Walt Disney was amazing.
F: So they converted them, and when we were going to England with [unclear] I rang them up and they said, ‘Yeah come up, come up, come up.’ [unclear] We were walking [unclear].
NS: Is she still alive, and who’s the young fella?
Other: He was the one that was taking us around wasn’t he?
NS: He was the tour guide was he?
Other: After that he was flying.
F: He was flying the old AC4.
NS: So he can fly Lancasters?
F: Oh yes. He was, like we had we sat down, we had a wonderful time, we were allowed to go inside the Lancaster I think if someone could have but today she was only a test flight.
NS: Was it the brand new one.
F: No this is the one at Coningsby the one that flies every year.
NS: There’s only one or two, one in Canada and one in England, is that right Ron?
F: This was the one in Coningsby and you see they change the nose over every four years for various reasons and it just happened that Mickey the Moocher was right over there.
NS: How appropriate was that.
F: We were the only crew that flew the old Mickey.
Other: The young chap there he was the one that flew it afterwards, you know take it over.
NS: No he must be in the Air Force.
Other: We even corresponded.
F: A couple of years or so hoping he would come out to Australia and see us but he never did.
NS: Well Ron, Lincoln was on the news the other night, last night or the night before they had a big show on on TV.
RB: There’s two sections, you’ve got the memorial itself which overlooks Lincoln, and then you’ve got an archive which is actually in the University and the recording is for the archive, and they are hoping to put basically they call it our life story of air crew, Frank and Norman, from the time they were born right the way through flying different types of aeroplanes until they actually flew their Lancs and did the business as it was.
F: So you really haven’t been able to do that?
RB: Not with Frank but I’ve done it with Norman.
NS: You want to ask Frank if he wants to go and do that you genuinely want to write down your name and particulars so I can keep it on my notebook and email if you’ve got an email address.
KY: Frank have you been inside the Lancaster that’s up in Bull Creek Museum.
F: Yeah I’ve been in it but not for a long time no.
KY: We put dad in it about a month ago.
F: Oh yeah.
KY: And there was a lot of climbing over.
[general background conversation]
KY: There were a couple of places where even I struggled to get through and I had to virtually crawl through to get up to sit in his seat.
NS: No they were, they were a difficult aircraft to get out of [unclear] —
F: The pilots we sat on the parachute and we had full hardness, the rear gunner had the same so all the rear gunner had to do was to turn it to a side where and he could do it hydraulic by hand and get about six foot off the ground and open his doors and put his knees and go straight backwards so he could very quickly get out, we used to practice that actually and we’d play catchy catchy when he fell down just for fun. [laughs]
KY: ‘Cos dad said he didn’t remember there being that many things hurdles that he had to get through —
NS: Well you didn’t, you didn’t notice it when you’re twenty years of age.
KY: No I suppose not.
NS: No you’d be bouncing through the air. [laughs]
F: There all, there all parts of the aircraft, other aircraft have the same thing now —
RB: Name and address, website, er email.
NS: So Ron if you, if you want to put this interview together ask Frank if he’d be prepared to go in there on his own and you two talk. What do you think Kath would that be all right? [unclear]. Is that all right Frank?
F: Yeah okay yeah.
NS: ‘Cos otherwise we’re interrupting as, I’ll take it in thee and we can stay out here Kath is that all right? The bomb aimer forgot to put the switch on.
RB: Sorry Norman go on.
NS: The bomb aimer rang me up and told me we were over the target, but we didn’t bomb the target, I said, ‘Why not?’ He said ‘Well I forgot to put the switch on probably. No I didn’t did I’ Made him go back again and have another go. The air officer commanding wasn’t very happy about me doing that because [unclear]. Told me off about it I never did it again.
[general background conversation]
Other: Now Norman’s just told Ron about the time remember I told you in the car, the bomber didn’t release and he had to come back round the stream and redo it? Did that ever happen to you?
F: No I don’t think so.
Other: So the bombs always went off when they were meant to. ‘Cos he got in big trouble and got told off.
NS: I did the wrong thing.
Other: That’s easy to do.
NS: Well we survived.
[general background conversation]
NS: We had two Australians you know.
Other: Well where your two Aussies, yourself and who else?
NS: Warrant officer.
Other: So you were an Aussie and he was an Aussie and the rest were Poms were they?
NS: Yes.
Other: May be that’s what they did back then Frank, just had a couple of Aussies and the rest were Poms. These are all copies of your log book and everything.
NS: Oh yes.
Other: Yeah, they there are, there’s these incendiaries that he dropped. Didn’t you say that you had one of those stuck?
NS: We had one of the big ones, I think it was that one.
Other: The big cookies there. He had one stuck in his bomb bay and you had to do it freehand didn’t you?
NS: [unclear]
Other: Yes, you guys want to stay here, Norman I’ll come back out here with you.
RB: I’ll put your log book back in my bag when you go home, okay.
Other: That was a disaster, never mind. I could get this opportunity now just one on one. [muffled noise]
RB: It won’t take long Frank, just a brief —
Other: Linda could you turn the music off please there just going to do some interviewing.
RB: How do you pronounce your surname Frank?
F: Moritz or can be Morris, MOR ok.
Other: I’ll leave it with you.
RB: Thank you John. Have you got a small table that I can put in front?
Other: Oh for the thing to go on. There you go, turn that around that way.
RB: That’s great thank you.
Other: No worries. Put that aircon on for you?
RB: Are you comfortable.
F: No it’s all right.
RB: No you’re comfortable. No we’re fine John, John we’re fine.
F: Bits about our family Moritz had been in Australia since 1837 actually we were one of the early settlers in various parts and I’ve relatives all over Australia now.
RB: Right.
F: We were part of some Irish family because the original route to come over —
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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ASmithNG161203
Title
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Interview with Norman George Smith
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:55:57 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Ron Barron
Date
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2016-12-03
Description
An account of the resource
Norman George Smith grew up in Western Australia. After leaving school he became an assistant in a timber mill workshop before volunteering for the Australian Air Force at the age of eighteen. He flew operations as a pilot with 463 Squadron from RAF Waddington. He returned back to Australia at the end of the war and recalls how he was welcomed home by his family. He also talks about how his first wife arrived from England, and his subsequent family life.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Jackie Simpson
463 Squadron
467 Squadron
aircrew
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
pilot
RAF Waddington
Stirling
Tiger Moth
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2055/33665/PSymondsKWP2103.1.jpg
74900e98746d1e287461308f7cb03216
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2055/33665/ASymondsKWP210817.1.mp3
26830fb712e01cf338aa2e8bcd3af7f9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Symonds, Kenneth Walter Prowse
K W P Symonds
Date
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2021-08-17
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Symonds, KWP
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Kenneth Symonds (b. 1924, 1833880 Royal Air Force). He flew served as a flight engineer with 624, 49, 201 and 53 Squadrons.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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RP: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln. The interviewer is Rod Pickles. The interviewee is Ken Symonds. Also present is a friend of Mr Symond’s, Deborah Follett. The interview is taking place on the 17th of August 2021 at Mr Symond’s home near Dorchester in Dorset. Good afternoon, Mr Symonds. May I call you Ken?
KS: Indeed yes.
RP: I think we’d probably like to start the way we usually start these if you could tell us a bit about where you were born and your childhood.
KS: I was, I was born in Weymouth in 1924. My father in fact was a tent maker working for a firm called [Marsham Wright] and in those days of course most of the sewing was done by hand not by a big machine. We moved. I was born in my aunt’s house in Weymouth but after a short while we moved into our own house and the family my mother, father and myself into a house at Kitchener Road which is in a large council estate in Weymouth and we stayed. I had a daughter, no, I beg your pardon I had a sister born there. Her name was Betty and I insisted upon calling her Betty. I was four years old and I put my foot down and made sure she was called Betty. But unfortunately, when I was about, oh about nine years old my, my mother died. I assume it was TB. She died in the Isolation Hospital and unfortunately my father was out of work at the time and so we were a bit distressed for money at that time and of course we were talking about 1938 area. There was a Depression on anyway. So, life was a bit grim and at holiday time I was usually sent away to stay with an aunt and I stayed with an aunt who lived at Wareham for quite a few holidays and delightful for me of course. I didn’t have the, I didn’t know anything about all the responsibilities my dad had in trying to maintain a house for us. Eventually, he, he married again. I think possibly his reason was to have someone to care for me while he was out. Not necessarily working but looking for work because we were still on the, in a Depression and my father married again. Then of course around 1939 we had the outbreak of war when everything changed then. I was then working. Apprentice painter and decorator. Not that I necessarily wanted to be a painter and decorator but somebody, but I started work in order to add a few shillings to the family, the family budget. And anyway, when the war came obviously things started to change and we had to take on other jobs like fire watching and that sort of stuff. But one thing I did do was to join the Air Training Corps because I knew that eventually if I reached the age of eighteen and the war was still on I was going to be conscripted into one of the Services and so the one that I really chose was the Royal Air Force. And, and I did and I stayed in the Royal Air Force. I was made a corporal in fact.
RP: In the ATC?
KS: Pardon?
RP: That’s in the Air Training Corps.
KS: In the Air Training Corps. Yes. I was made a corporal. I had a, a book was given me as a prize a while ago and it was aero engines and I’ve given that away recently and I gave it to Debbie’s father because he’s an engineer and he was interested in these aircraft engines of 1939. And eventually it came to I was eighteen and I volunteered for the Royal Air Force as I wanted to be a flight engineer. Well, I was at air training, the Air Training Corps. One day a sergeant turned up and he was wearing a flying badge with the letters FE in the, in the badge itself which of course was later changed to just the letter E and that was it. That convinced me I wanted to be a flight engineer. But you couldn’t join direct entry from Civvy Street to be trained as a flight engineer. You had to be a ground tradesman.
RP: Oh right. Ok.
KS: So, I had, so my opinion was, what I decided to do, not only myself but my cousin Ron Barnicoat, he was in the Air Training Corps with me. We both decided that when we reached the age of eighteen we were going to volunteer for the Royal Air Force, be trained as a flight mechanic and then having been trained as a flight mechanic then apply to become flight engineers. And we both decided to do this and my cousin, Ron Barnicoat who was about a year older than me he went off a year before me. As soon as he was eighteen he went off and he started that process of being trained as a flight mechanic and then converting to a, to a flight engineer and I did the same. When I was eighteen I went off.
RP: So where did you enrol for the RAF then?
KS: Sorry?
RP: Where did you sign on to the RAF?
KS: I went to, first of all I went to Penarth in South Wales where I was issued with all my kit and that sort of thing and a load of jabs stuck in my arm. Then I went to Weston Super Mare where I did all the foot slogging and drill. That sort of stuff. So, all the signature and that must have been by that time. And then I had then to wait for my flight mechanics course and I was waiting for my flight mechanics course by being stationed at 16 Maintenance Unit at St Athan.
RP: St Athan. Yeah.
KS: Yeah. I [pause] I was just an odd job chap there waiting for the course as a flight mechanic and I used to act as armed guard on lorries that were delivering ammunition and guns, that sort of thing from the Maintenance Unit. But eventually I got sent up to Blackpool for one of the School of Technical Training. I’m not sure. I think it might have been possibly Number 2 School of Technical Training at Squire’s Gate. We were living at [pause] in the boarding houses at South Shore and I started my flight mechanics course but unfortunately I developed Cellulitis in the right ankle and I got put in the hospital. So, my course stopped and when I was released from hospital about four weeks later of course I had to re-start again. Meantime, my cousin Ron he was still carrying on with the plan we had made. He had done his flight mechanics course and then he’d been put on a fitter’s course so I never quite caught up with him. And anyway, I eventually finished my training as a flight mechanic and immediately volunteered for aircrew duties as a flight engineer because I now had a ground trade. But I was sent to a maintenance unit, I think it was in Sealand near Chester to wait for my course as a flight engineer to start. And eventually it came along and I got posted to St Athan’s and at long last I caught up with my cousin, Ron Barnicoat. He was, he had done the same as me but as I say he was about a year ahead of me and I met him on the day he received his flying badge and three stripes and we had a few beers in the NAAFI and the next morning he went off home on leave. Probably seven days leave to Weymouth, his family in Weymouth and I never saw him again because he went and joined a squadron, a Canadian squadron flying Halifaxes and eventually he was shot down over Hamburg and he still was just listed as missing. No known, no known grave.
RP: This was one of his first sorties, yeah?
KS: I don’t know.
RP: Right.
KS: I don’t know how many sorties he’s done. He’d done. He joined this, all I know is that he joined this Canadian squadron which was [pause] what was it? I’m not sure. Was it 2 Group? 2 Group I think they were. Can you remember Debbie? We did look it up, didn’t we?
DF: Yeah. We looked up —
RP: But he was, he was shot down. So obviously you heard about this, how long after he’d gone away then?
KS: Yeah. He went, he left me at St Athan’s.
RP: Yeah.
KS: To go down to, to [pause] on leave to Weymouth.
RP: Right.
KS: But I never saw him again. I don’t know how many ops and I can’t remember how long it was that he was flying before he got, before he got shot down.
RP: Yeah. I’ve got 29th of July ’44 he was, he died.
KS: 29th of July.
RP: 425 Squadron.
KS: Yeah.
RP: He’s on the Runnymede. Yeah. Yeah. It’s —
KS: Yeah.
RP: That’s where they put them. Yeah. Ok.
KS: But I never knew —
RP: But obviously you were on your course and you were heading to be the flight engineer then.
KS: That’s it. Yes. And I carried on with the course because I didn’t know about him being shot down. Well, I’d finished the course.
RP: Yeah.
KS: And in fact, I was trained to go on Stirlings and Stirlings at that time of course had been removed from the main Bomber Command.
RP: Yes.
KS: And so I was sent, having qualified as a flight engineer and got my flying badge I was sent to, I think it was Wratting Common which was a sort of training unit for, for Stirlings and then there I joined a crew for the first time and four of the crew were Australians. They were Tommy Hawkins, Abernethy, Ron Arnold, [Cabbie] Cable. Those were the four Australians. And we had two gunners. The mid-upper gunner, he was a Geordie and I can’t for the life of me think of his name. And then there was Taf Reakes. He was the rear gunner. And we crewed up and started our training flying the Stirling and eventually we got posted to North Africa because the Stirling was kitted out as supply dropping.
RP: Yes.
KS: And target towing. That sort of thing.
RP: Yeah.
KS: It had a big hole in the floor, you know for the parachutists to jump out of that sort of thing and we got sent out to, to North Africa and we went via Rabat. Rabat Salé. Directed there and then across to I think the name of the airfield was Blida.
RP: Yeah. In Algeria. Yeah.
KS: In Algeria. Yes. Near, just outside of Algiers.
RP: Yeah.
KS: And we were there but by the time we got there the requirement for supply dropping in the south of France was no longer needed because the French, the Free French, the American Army and the Maquis had taken over the south so they were no longer needed. And so the Stirlings were, were sort of almost, well the squadron was disbanded. I’m not sure of the number of the squadron. It was a number like 624 or something like that.
RP: Yeah.
KS: A large name. So, our crew, we were kept together and just moved about wondering, wondering what was going to happen to us. And eventually we finished up at a squadron in southern Italy at Brindisi, 148 Squadron. And they were supplying people like Tito up in in Yugoslavia.
RP: Oh yes.
KS: And they were using Halifaxes and but of course, the Stirlings that we had had been modified for North, North Africa work. Low level. They had no oxygen system and they had great big oil coolers to keep the engines cool and [pause] but couldn’t be expected to fly over the mountains to supply Tito so we were decided we weren’t needed there at 148 Squadron and we were sent home to, home to Great Britain with a Stirling thinking it was going to be modified up with oxygen and that sort of thing. But we landed. I’m not sure whether it was, it might have been St Mawgan. You had a problem with the, the big oil coolers. They used to get a thing called coring. Flying in the cold weather. The centre of the, the centre of the oil cooler would freeze.
RP: Oh God.
KS: And the core would build up, build up, build up.
RP: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
KS: And the only way you could clear it was to belt your engines. Well, of course if you belted your engines you were using up fuel.
RP: Yeah.
KS: That you needed to get to your destination. So, it was a bit of a problem and I think we, we didn’t land in an emergency but the pilot decided we had gone far enough and we landed. I’m not sure whether it was in Cornwall or South Wales, it will probably be in my logbook and we were sent home on leave. Or I was sent home on leave. The Australians went to see their relatives in in Great Britain assuming that we were going to go back and have this Stirling modified and then go back to the Middle East again. But it didn’t happen that way. Instead, we got sent to the Lanc Finishing School at Syerston and converted on to Lancasters. And we converted on to the Lancasters and then we got posted to Fulbeck where we did four bombing raids over Germany. And then we were sent on leave and at that time there was a Nuffield Scheme going and aircrew got extra warrants for going on leave. They also got extra ration cards for going on leave. All paid for by Lord Nuffield, I think. It was a long time ago. I can’t remember it. Anyway, I I went on my leave and I returned from leave. As I say we’d done four bombing operations and I went back to Fulbeck to find that in my absence 49 Squadron had been moved to Syerston. So, I went and moved over to Syerston and it came to then the time of the year was ready for the last bombing raid of the war which was Berchtesgaden. And we went on the bombing raid to Berchtesgaden and we completed our bombing run and we got hit on number, number four engine I think it was and so we had to feather the prop. We came back on three and we were the last ones. The last crew of 49 Squadron to land because we came back with three engines and before I’d got to the crew bus the engine fitter had run after me with a piece of flak that had hit the engine. He said it cut straight through an oil pipe.
RP: Oh right.
KS: And the piece of flak was about as big as your thumb.
RP: Yeah. That’s all it needs, I guess.
KS: And I had it in this house.
RP: Oh right.
KS: And we’ve searched everywhere. We can’t find it anywhere.
RP: You haven’t got a fire to put it on. No.
KS: We, you have to remember we were flooded out of the house.
RP: Yes. Yeah.
KS: And it could well have got swept away.
RP: It could be floating down someday.
KS: It’s only, you know a bit.
RP: Yeah. Just need a small piece.
KS: About as big as your thumb.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Anyway —
RP: Well, at least, at least you got back. That’s the main thing.
KS: Oh, we got back. Yes. And we, we landed back at Syerston and, and I think in my logbook we did a training, a training exercise. Fighter affiliation. That sort of thing. And then, then it came to May the 2nd when we all jumped in our aeroplanes and flew to Brussels to bring back our prisoners of war.
RP: That was, that was a nice flight then.
KS: Yeah.
RP: Bringing back all the —
KS: Yes.
RP: It must have been a bit of a sight, I suppose.
KS: It was. It was a bit of a strange do really because we’d switched off our engines at Brussels and of course there were no ground crew there to assist us at all. Just to tell us where to park and we loaded up the, loaded up the Lancaster with our ex-prisoners of war and we were going to get a bit of a problem restarting our engines so I was told to go out and prime them because in a Lancaster you could. In the undercarriage bay there was a priming button.
RP: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
KS: And I was told to get out and do it but the aircraft was full of prisoners of war. But behind me, standing behind me was, I can remember standing because the flight engineer didn’t have anywhere to sit. He stood by the side of the pilot.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Anyway, standing beside me was a regimental sergeant major and he said, ‘Make yourself stiff, lad.’ So, I did and they passed me over hand over hand down through the fuselage and I went up into the undercarriage bay and primed the engines. Then hand over hand back, back to my place and we started the engines and brought them back to, brought the ex-prisoners of war back home. Yeah.
RP: Pity you haven’t got a photograph of that.
KS: It was wonderful and it’s a grand story to tell too.
RP: It is.
KS: Perfectly true.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Whether it was necessary for me to do it. You didn’t want, you see I think the pilot was getting a bit concerned because we had no external trolley acc. No external electrical supply for, for running your starter motors.
RP: That’s right.
KS: You had to do it entirely upon your aircraft batteries and if your, if the engine is on fire and your batteries were flat you were done.
RP: Yeah.
KS: You had to sit there and wait for some poor chap to go all the way from England with some batteries for you. So, I think as a special precaution I was told to go and prime the engines.
RP: Yeah. Make sure they go.
KS: Yeah.
RP: And they obviously fired up then.
KS: Yes.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
KS: And they all worked well and of course it’s a grand story to tell.
RP: Yeah.
KS: And it’s perfectly true.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Yeah. Anyway, we, we, we came back. That was on the 2nd of May and of course by the 8th of May peace was declared and we carried on then. After that we carried on supposedly training to go out to the Far East with the Lancasters. The Australians, and I was, four of the crew were the Australians they were almost told immediately you know return home. And I think they did. Most of them. Certainly, I remember seeing the pilot afterwards because he was engaged to marry one of our WAAFs and [pause] What was her name? I can’t think of her name now. Anyway, she lived at Lincoln and, and Tommy our pilot he stayed with her parents for a little while. But I think the, the problem arose because the Australians went back home to Australia to continue the Far Eastern war which then suddenly came to an end with the atom bomb. And then there was an awful lot of servicemen in Australia who were no longer required and there were an awful lot of people looking for work and I think the case finished up with Tommy just you know, he was looking for work rather than having a young bride coming out from England. Well, they hadn’t got married and so they didn’t get married. Dot Everitt. That was her name. Yeah. But I never met her after that but Tommy Hawkins turned up and when he was telling me the story that’s how it happened. Fearing that he was no longer employable when he got back home. He, he tried to join the RAF but he couldn’t afford the fare to get here.
RP: Oh right.
KS: So, it was a bit tight. Me. I got in to 49 Squadron. I stayed with them for a while and then I got posted up to the Empire Air Navigation School at Shawbury near Shrewsbury still flying Lancasters, and they were improving the training of navigators, that sort of thing. And while I was up there my wife, Flora and I decided to get married. And the week before we were due to get married which was October the 21st, Trafalgar Day there was no flying on the week before and somebody said, ‘Let’s go and have a game of basketball.’ So, we went down to the gym for a game of basketball and I finished up laying on the floor with a broken cheek bone.
RP: Oh no.
KS: So that was the week. They whipped me off into hospital and all I could say was, ‘I’m getting married next week.’ [laughs] Anyway, I was eventually whipped all the way across the country to the RAF hospital at Halton and they fixed up my broken cheekbone and I finished up with a big black eye and five stitches in the side of my head where they’d put the —
RP: Right.
KS: Whatever they needed to click my cheekbone back into place.
RP: That, that was a violent game of basketball wasn’t it?
KS: Eh?
RP: That was a violent game of basketball.
KS: Printed on my cheek [laughs] then somebody used a little rubber stamp saying, stamp saying, “Do not press here.” And I was sent home on leave to get married like that. I had a uniform. Someone had thrown a uniform in the back of the ambulance but there was no wallet so I had no money and worst of all of course I had no wedding ring. I’d bought one. Anyway, I got home. I didn’t have, and they let me in to hospital on the Thursday at Halton and I had to get to Weymouth to get married and I went. I got to Weymouth to get married. I’m greeted by Flora came out to greet me to see this great black eye and she also informed me that the doctors had just been to the house and her mother had three days to live.
RP: Oh no.
KS: This is absolutely true. She was upstairs in her bedroom.
RP: Crikey.
KS: But the doctors told Flora and I to carry on with our procedures. Fortunately, we had agreed to have a quiet wedding but what are we going to do with our wedding ring? We had to go and prise it off of her mother who was lying up in her bed. Anyway, we got married and we had a honeymoon. That was a lovely afternoon, you know [laughs] We didn’t have a honeymoon at all.
RP: No.
KS: We had, we went to the Registry Office and got married and came back home. A few friends came home. Came in. Flora had made a lovely wedding cake. And I’ve got photographs of her cutting it and that was on the Sat [pause] Yes, it was a Saturday we got married. I think on the Sunday the doctors came again and, and said to us that it would be far better if they took Flora’s mother into hospital. They could make her more comfortable and they said, the surgeon said we wish to do this and then I suggest, he suggested we, Flora and I went away for two or three days which we did. But and there was me you see in my old battledress with my black eye and we went to stay with some friends who lived at Godalming. But after two or three days we, we came home again to find that Flora’s mother had been operated on. Now, what they did I don’t know but she had dreadful stomach trouble and that sort of thing and she was recovering. So, from death, from death’s door she was now recovering but of course we hadn’t given her her wedding ring back yet. This is absolutely true. It’s incredible, isn’t it?
RP: Yeah.
KS: Yeah. You almost have a Laurel and Hardy film that at the end of the week was the end of my leave so I went back to Shawbury and of course and then immediately posted the wedding ring back that I had there.
RP: Right.
KS: Posted it back to Flora and also some money to pay her brother who’d loaned us money to get married.
RP: So, did her mother know that the ring had gone then?
KS: I’m sorry?
RP: Did her mother know she’d lost the ring?
KS: No.
RP: No. She didn’t know.
KS: She didn’t. She didn’t know anything.
RP: Oh.
KS: She didn’t know anything at all. No. but anyway, we trundled along like that. I stayed at Shawbury for about oh I suppose about a month and then I left the Air Force for a while. And flora’s mother was in hospital and we used to go up and visit her and she recovered. She was a tough Scot. She spent her childhood I think or girlhood on the Red Clyde and so she knew what was going on. And I came out in to Civvy Street and it wasn’t right for me and it wasn’t right for Flora and we sat down one day and had a long talk and she said that if the man of the house is not doing a job he’s interested in the wedding is, the marriage is going to fail. It’s the most important thing that the man of the house and we sat down and we both decided that the job I wanted to do was to be a flight engineer in the RAF. And so I, at the time I was a foreman painter on a building site and we agreed that I would apply to go back in the RAF to be a flight engineer and so I did this and I was accepted and I remember Flora saying to me, ‘If you’re going back in to the RAF as a flight engineer you’re going to be the best.’ So, I had to live up to her and try to do the best but that’s, that’s why I got back in to the RAF. And I spent a tour then at Lyneham which wasn’t far from Weymouth on Hastings and from there I did a tour at Boscombe Down which was even closer to home and at that time, around about 1953 I suppose the RAF were getting lots of new aeroplanes. For example, a new mark, the Mark 3 Shackleton, the Beverley, the three V bombers and they all came through Boscombe Down being trained err being tested and I was fortunate enough to fly in them. I flew in all three V bombers and I did a flight re-fuelling course at Tarrant Rushton, the Alan’s Cobham’s factory. And I flew on the Valiant as the drogue operator for the flight refuelling. It was such an interesting job. Yeah. But from there I got, when I’d finished that job I got posted to Kinloss and, to be trained to fly on the Shackleton. We had the Mark 1 Shackletons there. and when I finished the course I was asked to stay on the staff. So, I stayed there for some time. An awful long way away from Weymouth but it was on a job I was doing and I enjoyed instructing and from there I got recommended for a commission. And I did, I went to the, OCTU at the time was at, on the Isle of Man and I got to, I got a commission and I was already, being a warrant officer I went straight to the rank of flying officer and I was posted to 201 Squadron at St Mawgan. There’s a picture of the Nimrod err of the Shackleton up there that we were flying on.
RP: Oh yeah. Yeah.
KS: Yeah. And I was with a pilot there, he was Wing commander George Chesworth. I’d met him several times. Unfortunately, he’s died now but I met him when he was a wing commander there. I met him when he was a group captain and station commander at Kinloss and then he was an air commodore at Strike Command Headquarters. That sort of thing. And from then on I flew on the Shackletons. And I was then, went to Ballykelly on the Shackletons and eventually of course we started to get the Nimrod through and I spent a fair bit of time then on the acceptance of the Nimrod flight simulator. And we used to, we were, I was stationed at Halton there and because the builders of the, of the Nimrod simulator were Redifon and their factory was in Aylesbury so —
RP: Yeah.
KS: So, living in Halton. And then what happened? Oh, of course when I was an NCO at Boscombe Down I got, I got, I was awarded the AFM by the, and Flora and I had to go up to Buckingham Palace.
RP: That was good so what, what was that?
KS: To see the queen.
RP: What was, what was the citation for that then?
KS: I’ve never seen a citation.
RP: No?
KS: No. It’s something we ought to look in to it really, I suppose Debbie, isn’t it?
RP: There was no citation?
KS: I haven’t seen it. The only, the only information I had was, were the newspaper reports and an official form telling me the way to present myself at Buckingham Palace.
RP: Oh right.
KS: I remember one thing. I wasn’t allowed to carry a sword [laughs] I remember that.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
RP: Oh, well, that was nice to receive it then but —
KS: Yeah.
RP: It’s a recognition then obviously of your work.
KS: Yeah. I suppose so to.
RP: But I would have thought there would have been a citation.
KS: Yes. Yes. There must have been some where. Have we got one Debbie? Did we?
DF: I got, let me have a look.
KS: Sorry.
DF: No. It’s ok. You got it for devotion to duty.
RP: You were promoted on my birthday I see.
KS: Was I?
RP: 26th of October 1964. Flying officer to flight lieutenant. Oh, that’s good. Very good.
KS: No.
RP: Then on 1st July ‘74 you became a squadron leader.
DF: That’s the one she signed.
RP: Thank you. [pause] Oh, that’s impressive, isn’t it? Ah. Now, they spelt Prowse with a U.
DF: Oh.
RP: They spelt it with a U. Is that correct?
KS: Do they?
DF: That’s wrong.
KS: Do they?
RP: That’s wrong.
KS: Well, that’s not correct.
DF: If you look at his warrant.
RP: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DF: For that one. It’s got —
RP: Yeah. They’ve got it wrong. Fancy Buckingham Palace getting your name wrong. I’d send it back.
KS: Dear queen [pause] It was a tremendous event I might add.
RP: Oh absolutely. Absolutely. Really lovely. I love it.
DF: And the warrant is —
RP: That’s lovely.
DF: Dated the 6th day of September 1959.
RP: That’s brilliant, isn’t it? Have they got your name right there then?
DF: They’ve got his name right on that one.
RP: They’re right on that one. That’s good. That’s lovely. So, you, you became a squadron leader when you were almost fifty then. Yes? And still in the RAF. So —
KS: Yeah. I got commissioned but I went on various jobs within Coastal Command and eventually came to being on the acceptance of the Nimrod.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Flight simulator. I was at the factory. There was a pilot and myself on this and then I got posted down to the training unit for Nimrods at, at St Mawgan and I think it was there I got promoted to squadron leader. And then my last tour in the, in the Royal Air Force I was posted back to Boscombe Down which was still the Aircraft and Armament Experimental Unit and the aircraft that I was concerned with there and the ones I flew in in fact was the, was the Comet 4, the Nimrod and an Argosy.
RP: An Argosy.
KS: And that’s what I finished my service on. Finished.
RP: You finished on an Argosy. That was an experience. I haven’t, I haven’t flown one but I’ve flown in one.
KS: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
RP: Between Malta and Cyprus. Ok.
KS: Yeah. But we had the Argosy there for, because one of the tasks that Boscombe Down had of course was testing parachutes.
RP: Yes. Yes.
KS: And if you had a parachute —
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
KS: If you had a modification of any sort.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Say a change of rigging line, that sort of thing the parachute had to be tested a certain number of times before it could be issued generally.
RP: And the Argosy you could just go out the back, couldn’t you?
KS: That’s it. Yes. We used to go out to Cyprus in the spring and the, spring and autumn for maybe three weeks or a month. Our own parachutists in the Argosy and we climbed out and they’d jump and test the parachute. You had to get an awful lot of jumps to prove it before it could be issued generally you know. It was a very interesting job.
RP: So, what year did you leave the RAF then?
KS: 1982.
RP: 1982.
KS: I joined in 1942.
RP: Yeah.
KS: And I left in 1982. My birthday was, I was, I was serving until my, ah I was due to leave at the age of fifty five.
RP: That was going to be my next question.
KS: Yeah.
RP: You obviously went beyond fifty five.
KS: I was ready to leave at fifty five. I was stationed at Boscombe Down and I received a phone call to ask me if I would serve the extra. An extra three years because they were short of experienced air crew. So, I came home and had a word with Flora and we agreed that it would be alright and I got back to this telephone number and I said, ‘But there are one or two things. You want me to do an extra three years. Where do you want me to do them?’ And they said, ‘Where you are stationed now at Boscombe Down doing exactly the same job.’ And I said, ‘Ah, but at the age of fifty five I was entitled to a terminal grant.’
RP: Yes. Yes.
KS: Three times your salary. And they said, ‘You will get that on your birthday.’
RP: Crikey. They must have, they must have wanted you then.
DF: He was very skilled.
KS: And so, I said, ‘Certainly,’ I said, ‘I’ll settle down for the next three years.’ As it happened, on my birthday, my wife and I were in our caravan up in the Forest of Dean and we said, and we woke up in the morning, we both said, ‘I wonder if it’s in yet?’ Because it’s an awful lot of money you see. Three times your salary.
RP: Yes.
KS: And the squadron leader’s salary and flying pay, you see.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
KS: So, we wondered how, how we were going to find out. So, in the end Flora and I decided we’d go down in to Lydney where there was a small branch of Barclays bank and we’d have a word with the bank manager and we went in and we saw him. He said, ‘There’s no problem.’ He said, ‘There’s no problem,’ He said, ‘I’ll phone my friend the manager of the Barclays branch in Dorchester and ask for a bank statement which he did and he came and wrote it out and we knew obviously the money had gone in. So, we went next door and loaded up with wine and whisky.
RP: And went to celebrate. Well —
KS: Yeah.
RP: I think I’d like to, like to bring this to an end by asking the question I usually ask. Your RAF career —
KS: Yeah.
RP: If you had to do it all again, would you?
KS: Indeed. Certainly.
RP: Even during the wartime?
KS: The wartime was difficult to say, isn’t it? If you could guarantee I was going to survive, shall we say.
RP: Oh, in this world yes. I’ll guarantee it. Yes. For my question I’ll guarantee you’d survive. But you obviously enjoyed your time in the RAF.
KS: I did. Tremendously. Yes. My life was changed completely. What was I going to finish up doing as a young lad? An apprentice painter and decorator. During the wartime what painting and decorating went on? Very little.
RP: Yes.
KS: Most of the painting was using camouflage on some Nissen huts that sort of thing and the decorating side was replacing broken windows. What was that, what sort of a career was that going to be?
RP: Oh, I can see that.
KS: Yeah.
RP: Anyway, thank you. It’s been a privilege talking to you. I’ve really enjoyed it. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.
KS: So have I.
RP: It’s good to —
KS: I hope I didn’t swear.
RP: Certainly not. Thank you very much. It’s been brilliant. Thank you.
[recording paused]
DF: The Channel Islands when it was still occupied.
KS: Oh, that was in the Stirling. Yes. Yes.
DF: When you got shot at.
[recording paused]
RP: These are additional recordings with Ken Symonds on the 17th of August. Ken, you were going to tell us about what happened on the outbreak of war.
KS: Oh, that, that was the day there was around about half a dozen of us young fellas and I think there were a couple of girls with us. In fact, I think two of the girls were evacuees from London. They’d started evacuating early and we were walking along a road in Weymouth called Radipole Lane. And on the left of Radipole Lane then was a huge great field which was known then as Chickerell flying, Chickerell Airfield. Nowadays, it’s just a huge industrial estate. But we were wandering along there just larking about and just a wander around on a Sunday morning and as walked past this, a hut which was on this Chickerell Airfield there were two young chaps there in Air Force uniform and they were filling sandbags and they said, ‘You know we’re at war.’ And that’s how we learned in fact, this must have been the Sunday in, the Sunday the 9th or 8th or something like that in 1939. War broke out and that’s how we learned about it. And of course, we went home and by this time the family had learned that the war, we were now at war and of course, my dad was an old soldier and he was a bit concerned. But of course, all our parents were concerned. We didn’t know what was going to happen to us but that was the start of it.
RP: Ok. Another thing you were going to tell us I think was the story of one your crewmen Taf Reakes.
KS: Oh yes. Yes. Our rear gunner was a Welshman Taf Reakes and he when we [pause] the end of the war the Australians that was the bomb aimer, navigator, mid up err bomb aimer, navigator, pilot and wireless operator they all went back to Australia and we, other crew members split up and went our various ways. After a while I got posted up to Shawbury so I never really knew what happened to Taf Reakes. I did on one occasion call an address in Wales but I got no reply so I had no contact with him. And then after many years Tommy Hawkins, the pilot turned up on a visit here and he told me that Taf had been killed. And he said he was been training as a pilot and we got the impression he was training as a pilot on a Lancaster. And it wasn’t until a few months ago that we were looking through papers, sorting them, papers in the house and we found a long letter written by Tommy Hawkins about, he had died by this time but we found this long letter which took a bit of translating because his writing was dreadful and it was about, one of the things he was speaking about was trying to find out Taf Reakes’ grave. And we found in fact that he was looking for the wrong, we knew Taf had crashed but Tommy was looking at the wrong village in Wales. He’d got one letter wrong in the, in the name of the village and when we tried the second village we found all the information. That he was travelling, flying in a Washington. One is, one is, what part of the crew he was I don’t know. I can only assume he was training as a pilot but a part of the aircraft disintegrated and the whole aircraft crashed. And there is this small village in Wales where they were buried in the, in the cemetery, I think the crew of ten or twelve and the villagers had put up a resting chair there in memory of what they called, “Our brave aircrew.” And that’s all we know about Taf Reakes. That’s where he ended up. Our gunner.
RP: Thank you for that one. Ok, Ken and finally I think you were going to tell us about your escapade with the Channel Islands.
KS: Well, this was January 1945. The crew I was with. The same crew, you know. Mainly the Australians. We were tasked with the job of bringing a Stirling back from Morocco. A place called Rabat-Salé just up from Casablanca and of course France had been liberated so we flew right up low level virtually up across France. Up the Champs Elysee. It was grand. And somebody said, ‘Oh look, there’s the Channel Islands. Let’s go and have a look.’ So, we did and they started firing at us because we didn’t know that the Germans were still, we’d forgotten that the Germans were still occupying the Channel Islands. So, I think the pilot said, ‘Let’s get the hell out of here.’ So, we shot very quickly away from the Channel Islands and also we landed at Athan’s or St Mawgan. Yeah.
RP: Was the incident reported officially? Or did nobody know?
KS: I don’t know. I don’t know. That would be an Australian question.
RP: If I meet any Australians I’ll ask them.
KS: Yeah.
DF: Did he fly up Pall Mall?
RP: Oh, and the other thing finally I think there was a story I think you’ve mentioned before about Pall Mall. Flying up Pall Mall in London.
KS: Oh, that was only, it was the fly past.
RP: And what was the occasion?
KS: Well, after the war we had, we had we had a fly past up the, formation flying up the Pall Mall. In preparation I assume, practice for the big parade which was on June the 6th, I think. 1946.
RP: So, what aircraft were you in?
KS: A Lancaster.
RP: And how many aircraft took part then? Was it quite a lot?
KS: I think there was possibly three Lancasters.
RP: Oh right.
KS: But the Hurricanes were there and, and the Spitfires were there and if I remember a Dakota was there but it’s so long ago you know and of course I was the flight engineer. I was mainly concerned about safety without looking at all the other aircraft. Yes.
RP: So, you never saw the crowds below then.
KS: Oh, no. No. No.
RP: Ok. Thanks very much for that. Thank you.
KS: Yeah.
RP: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Kenneth Walter Prowse Symonds
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rod Pickles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-08-17
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:44:54 Audio Recording
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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ASymondsKWP210817, PSymondsKWP2103
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Symonds was in the Air Training Corps when the unit was visited by a flight engineer. This meeting further inspired him, along with his cousin to join the RAF in a ground trade with the expectation of moving on to become a flight engineer. Ken’s cousin Ron Barnicoat was a year ahead of him in training. They met one final time before Ron went home on leave. Shortly after re-joining his squadron Ron was killed. Ken and his crew took part in Operation Exodus to repatriate prisoners of war.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Channel Islands
Wales--Glamorgan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
49 Squadron
624 Squadron
aircrew
flight engineer
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Fulbeck
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/825/10810/AFosterIWE180221.1.mp3
54d33d809a599918158d50aa31c3512e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Foster, Ivor William Ernest
I W E Foster
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Ivor Foster (b. 1925, 1851250 Royal Air Force) his logbook, a squadron daily order of battle and photographs of operation Exodus in 1945. He flew operations as an air gunner with 186 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ivor Foster and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-02-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Foster, IWE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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RP: This interview is taking place on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The Interviewer Is Rod Pickles. The Interviewee is Ivor Foster. Also present in the room is Bill Nicholson. The interview is taking place at Ivor’s home in Plymstock, Plymouth on the 21st of February 2018. Good morning, Ivor and thank you for inviting me to your home. Could we start then by if you could tell us when and where you were born and what made you join the RAF?
IF: I was born in Stonehouse, Plymouth. What was called Edgcumbe Street. Then it became Union Street. And that was the 16th of August 1925. And I went to High Street School in Stonehearst and at the age of eleven I went to Public Central in Corporate Street having passed what is today the 11 Plus and I left there at fifteen and a half and I had various jobs until I was eligible at eighteen to volunteer. And I volunteered for the RAF, and I got called at eighteen and a quarter and I went up, after the medical I went to the Lord’s Cricket Ground and reported to the RAF to start my service. And then I left the, I left the hotel there with a number of others and we were put on the train to Newquay in Cornwall where I did six weeks there ITW and it was all training for pilot, navigator and bomb aimer and I decided that, they would, they would go abroad after, after another six weeks so I decided that I would change over and become an air gunner. So I sent, I was sent to [unclear] at a place called Eastchurch and remustered there as an air gunner. And then I started my training and I ended up after another ITW, on air gunner training. I went to Northern Ireland to a place called Bishop’s Court and after three months there I came home on a week’s leave as a sergeant air gunner. And at the end of that leave I joined, what was it? Five others and we crewed up as a crew in a Wellington. And after our training there we ended up north at a place called Woolfox Lodge and we went on the mighty Lanc and picked up our engineer.
RP: Do you remember the crewing up procedure? The crewing up procedure. Did you, how did you choose each other then? Who chose the people?
IF: That’s a good one because all trades of aircrew were in a big hangar and the commanding officer came in and said, ‘Right. You will talk amongst yourself and crew up amongst yourself. Nobody is going to tell you you’ve got to go to this pilot or that pilot. You pick yourself.’ And he said, ‘I’ll be back at mid-day and the pilot will give me his crew that he’s formed and any of them that are not in a crew in the afternoon will come back and I shall be here and then you will be ordered to go to this crew or that crew.’ And that’s how we crewed up. I first of all picked up a gunner. He turned out to be our rear gunner for the rest of our service. Then we picked up the pilot and from there we carried on picking up the rest of the crew. The bomb aimer, wireless operator, navigator and like I say we say we went then after flying on Wellington to Woolfox Lodge where we picked up the engineer because we went from two engines obviously to four and he had a job to look after those four engines and had to move the petrol around the wings so that we weren’t caught short of petrol. But then finishing all of our training on the Lancaster we ended up at RAF Stradishall, 186 Squadron and that’s where we started our operations bombing Germany.
RP: Can you remember your first sortie?
IF: Yes. I can. I’ve got it in my book here. It was a place Wesel. W E S E L. And it was lovely keeping this logbook. I refer to it time and time again because a lot of it is just like yesterday. Yes. That was on the 18th of February ’45.
RP: So, you did quite a lot of training before then.
IF: Oh yes.
RP: You must have done over a years training at least.
IF: Yes. Yes. I I started my actual training before I went to the Air Gunner’s Training Unit in Ireland, Northern Ireland. And that was the first time I’ve ever flown an aeroplane and it was the Anson and my pilot was called Sergeant Hedges and lo and behold he came from Plymouth.
RP: Oh right.
IF: That was my initiation into flying. And that, it took us, well it took me from that day, right up to when we first went on as a bombing crew and it took me ‘til [pause – pages turning] That’s Woolfox Lodge finish. Here we are, 14th, no, the 18th of February was my first bombing trip to Wesel.
RP: Do you remember much about it?
[pause]
IF: Apart from well, the first one I wondered what I was going into. I know we entered in “Light flak,” but there was puffs of smoke coming up everywhere. But there again I was told by one of the old colleagues of aircrew on the station, ‘Don’t worry about those puffs of smoke. That shell’s gone away from you.’ He said, ‘It’s the ones that you can’t see.’
RP: Yeah.
IF: That’s not a puff of smoke ‘til it hits you.’ But [pause] Yeah. It’s [pause] I don’t remember. You know, I say I don’t remember. It was all new. Everything was new and things were going so fast. Going out to, being driven out to the plane, jumping in, taking off and that and then finding being a day lighter because that’s what our, our station supplied unless they wanted to do a bit more strength at night and we did a couple of nights during my period there. It was everything going on around you and of course as an air gunner you’re looking all the way around and I had the best view of the lot on the top turret because I could see everywhere. I could see everywhere. But then after you’d done the first one they seemed to slot in and each one’s the same until something happens and if it happens close to you and the plane goes down, you know you realise then you’re in with it.
RP: Because you’re not, you know, the people on the plane.
IF: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
IF: And of course, being on top as well you’re looking for our boys up over you and they would drift over with their bomb doors opened and it’s not a very nice sight looking up at someone else’s bombs ready to come out.
RP: Did you ever have to take avoiding action?
IF: I did that. I said, my pilot wrote a book on it and he thanked me. He said, ‘I’ve got to thank you twice for making me dive to get away from those up above us.
RP: Oh, that was good.
IF: Well, it so happens and yet you see at night you wouldn’t have seen that.
RP: No.
IF: And there was a number of crews lost with bombers over them. But one of the, one of the, well I say the best trips that I ever saw, it was an eye opener, is when I took part in a thousand bomber raid and we were a hundred and fifty from what we called 3 Group which was, like I say day lighters and we were, we were in formation and gaining height on a Sunday afternoon. A beautiful sunny afternoon. Better than what we get today. And we were over Southampton circling and we knew there was going to be a thousand and fifty bombers. We were a hundred and fifty and I can still hear now the bomb aimer sat down in his little cubicle down and under saying, he said, ‘Here they come underneath us.’ And there was nine hundred and they were, the ground was just blackened out with aircraft.
RP: It must have been an impressive sight from where you were then.
IF: Oh, my dear. All going the same way. But then when the last one, this wonderful timing and why a film was never made of a thousand bomber raid I’ll never know. And as the last crew left the shores of England at Southampton we set course as well.
RP: Where were you heading?
IF: We were [pause] we were going to Essen. That was it. Essen, we went. That was on the 11th of March ’45 and we, being day lighters we used to bomb on radar. That’s why we were in formation. But I don’t think there was much else left of Essen for us to bomb by the time we got there and how there wasn’t more accidents I don’t know. But wonderful planning.
RP: Yeah.
IF: Wonderful planning.
RP: But obviously there was a few shot down, I assume. Was there?
IF: Oh, I expect so. I didn’t know of the, you know we —
RP: But you, you returned safely. Yeah.
IF: We were number one.
RP: Yeah.
IF: We, it’s terrible really to say it but you look after yourself.
RP: Yeah.
IF: People then realise that there’s seven in a crew. The number of times people say, ‘Oh, you must have been frightened.’ You’ve got no time to be frightened because the seven of you have ate, slept, drank, worked, played as one. You were like brothers and it was like a chain. You couldn’t afford to be that weak link because if you were you’ve put six others in peril. And that I think sums up most bomber crews. It’s a wonderful feeling to be one of them but there’s a lot of responsibility for each one carrying to think that his work on that plane is saving six others. Not just yourself.
RP: Yeah. Well, it’s the comradeship, isn’t it?
IF: Oh, wonderful.
RP: So, that, you mentioned the first one and the thousand bomber raids. What was your last bombing raid? Where was that too then? Where you were going to?
IF: Oh, now that one —
RP: I know you moved on to other things which we can talk about but can you remember where the last bombing raid was too? And did you know at the time it was your last bombing raid?
IF: No. No. We didn’t. My last bombing raid took place on the 24th of April and we went to a place called Bad Oldeslow, near Lubeck and we went for marshalling yards on that one.
RP: But you were only what, a couple of weeks away from the end of the war by then, weren’t you?
IF: Yes. Oh, yeah.
RP: But did they tell you when you got back you wouldn’t have to go again or what?
IF: No. No.
RP: When did you find out?
IF: Nothing was told. Nothing was told until we heard that the war was over and then that was the 24th of April. Then the 7th of May was my first trip to the Hague in Holland and we were flying five hundred feet dropping food to the Dutch.
RP: This, this is a different kind of sortie now [laughs]
IF: There was a, we always said as a crew that sortie, dropping food to the Dutch people and the four trips we did to Juvencourt in France and brought back twenty four each time of our own boys who had been prisoners of war we were doing something for humanity. We were no longer destroying. We were bringing good to people. The prisoners of war coming back and we, we found out one big lesson. Our first trip bringing them back we were talking to them as they were coming to the plane. Some of them went and kissed the grass. Some of them just knelt down and prayed. We walked away on the next three. That was their life. They’d come back to soil that they had belonged to. That was very very touching —
RP: Yeah.
IF: Believe you me to see a man —
RP: I mean the good thing was to get them back so quickly, wasn’t it?
IF: Oh, oh yes. It was. And I got photographs there where when we landed we lined up all the way up one side of the runway and when we, when we finished taking the prisoners, or ex boys away we, when we flew to Juvencourt we lined up and when we were given the allocation everything was [unclear] who they were coming in whose plane. Obviously, they had to get details of everything in case something did go wrong. And then they’d come to our plane and we seated them then as best we could. And when we got back to Juvencourt and that we’d walk away having brought the plane in to a dispersal or the side of the airfield and they walked away. And later we would go back, pick up our plane and take off and fly back to base. Very very moving. Unless you’ve been there to experience that, to see men, you know not boys but men and some of them old men —
RP: Yeah.
IF: I know we had twenty four ex-prisoners of war was Indians our second trip. Wonderful. Wonderful to see them putting feet on England.
RP: So how many trips did do to Holland on Operation Manna then?
IF: One.
RP: Just the one.
IF: We did the one and then we got called to do these.
RP: And then you had to go and recover —
IF: Bring our boys back because they they wanted to get them back quick.
RP: Yes.
IF: And of course, they wanted, they had other ones that hadn’t been to Holland dropping food so they went.
RP: Yeah.
IF: And we were shifted then to bringing our boys back which was a —
RP: Yeah. By the 7th of May of course the Allied Army would be moving in to Holland, wouldn’t it?
IF: Oh yeah.
RP: They’d surrendered. So, things would be a little better. So, you mentioned when you crewed up initially. When you actually finished how many of the original crew were, were you together? Were you still the same people?
IF: No. When we, when we crewed up we had unfortunately, he was a nice lad from Canada and he was our first navigator but during training they found he couldn’t navigate properly.
RP: Oh right.
IF: Something went wrong with him and we didn’t know what. He was just taken away and we were given then another navigator.
RP: Oh.
IF: And the navigator we got then, old [Jerry] I was a boy eighteen nineteen. Nineteen I was then and he was thirty two. But he was a wizard at navigation and his flight plans, very very small writing but you could read every letter and every number on it.
RP: So, in reality you got a better navigator because of that.
IF: Yes, we did.
RP: Yeah.
IF: We did. But at the end of the day, and I can still see him now as soon as my pilot, he was the last one to leave the plane when we came back, we would be there having a cigarette. He never smoked. As soon as he put his foot down on the grass, he’d step on the grass on the tarmac and he’d say, ‘Well, boys lady luck’s been with us today.’ And that’s what it was. Luck.
RP: Did you have any, were you ever, suffer any damage on your sorties then?
IF: Well, we had one burst quite near us but I was the only one that caught a bit of that one. But it went right through my turret. A bit of shrapnel.
RP: Oh right.
IF: Come in one side, behind me luckily and went out the other side. Ripped the back of my Mae West. The bolt’s there that keeps your head up when you’re in the water.
RP: That was close.
IF: But I had six slithers of Perspex around this eye because I was facing to the rear and they took me down. You’d think I was a wounded soldier but because of the height and the cold and there was slight trickles of blood from where these splinters went in I had to be protected from frostbite and that. So, yeah. But there, I’m here like.
RP: Oh good [laughs] Yeah.
IF: Still got my eye as well.
RP: That’s the main thing. Did you ever shoot anybody down then from your turret?
IF: No.
RP: Did anyone else? And of the —
IF: I never never fired my gun all the time we were flying. Or the rear, rear gunner
RP: Really.
IF: No. We did see one time on one of our trips there was a flash went beside. Whoof gone. And we thought then that was a jet. They were just bringing in the German jet fighters and we thought it was one of them because we’d never seen anything like it. Just a red flash and it was gone. If you wanted to open your gun you couldn’t —
RP: Yes.
IF: Because it was gone so fast.
RP: So, you’ve come back from the POWs. At what point after that did you disband then? When did it come to an end?
IF: It come to an end, our last trip, I think [pause] Hang on. I’ll soon tell you when we [pause] My pilot’s got all that in his book. He wrote a book about it. It was, “Ghosts of Targets Past,” by Philip Gray. [pause] Our last trip. That’s when we went to 622 Squadron to join them from 186 to train to go to Japan but the war finished. That stopped that. Our last flight was on the 3rd of August.
RP: Oh right.
IF: That was a night cross country and a couple of days after that the seven of us walked in different directions and that was it. I ended up ten months, eleven months in Iraq. RAF Habbaniya. I’ll always remember it. Fifty five miles from Baghdad.
RP: What were you doing out there?
IF: Well, they put so many of us to train as equipment assistants. I was one of them and we had this exam and then you were then an AC1 equipment assistant. And I got sent out there as an equipment assistant and believe it or not I was in charge of a bakery, butchery and slaughterhouse. We used to kill the meat because there was over two thousand of the local population that were like an Army out there. They did all the guard duty around the camp and all that. And there was a terrific number of our lads and women there because they had their own hospital there. It was like a little town really. There were shops there. But the big thing, there was, they had their own electricity works there and it was five civilians manned that twenty four hours a day. Made their own ice and that for the camp. And if, I remember I got my move from there. I had to come back what they called [Medlock]. That was a shaker. I flew from Habbaniya down to the Canal, Suez Canal and put in a camp there all under canvas. Then we were taken and we got on a boat and we went what they called [Medlock] and that boat took us to Piraeus in Greece and then we went to the south of France, got on the train, hopped to Calais and then across to England. That’s how I come home.
RP: That must have taken a few days.
IF: The trains, they were, they were slats to sit on and we were about twenty four hours coming from the south of France off the camp.
RP: Ok.
IF: Yeah.
RP: So, after that, how, how long before you were demobbed then?
IF: Oh [pause] I did, I did a fair time down, down in Honington. Dunkeswell. The station just outside Honington.
RP: Oh yeah.
IF: And I got the, I’ll tell you when I got demobbed because I’ve got my book here. I think it was the [pause – pages turning] I went overseas in August ’45 and come back. [unclear] if that. The 28th of December. Came back the 3rd of November. But I got demobbed. I think that was my last day in the RAF was 6th of the 7th ’47.
RP: Gosh. That was —
IF: Yeah.
RP: That was long after the war.
IF: Yeah. Yeah. It was.
RP: Looking back on the time when you were the, when you were the gunner and going on all these sorties if you had your time again would you do it all again?
IF: If I had the same crew. Yeah.
RP: Did you keep in touch with any of them afterwards?
IF: Yes. Yeah. We kept in touch and unfortunately the first one that passed away was our wireless operator. He was walking. He came from Hayes in Middlesex. Always remember it. “Home of His Master’s Voice,” was the railway station there. And he had a heart attack whilst he was out walking. He went. Our engineer, believe it or not when he joined us and don’t forget we were nineteen and twenty and that, he was forty two. A grandfather. Poor old Frank came from Tiverton. He passed away when he was fifty so he didn’t have much of a retirement. And the last one to go was my pilot. He emigrated with his wife to New Zealand. Was out there thirty years and he lost her. Then he emigrated to Toronto and that’s where my wife and myself used to visit him.
RP: So, you have spoken to him.
IF: Oh yeah. And I lost my wife six year ago. And I, I went out in 2013. I couldn’t go the following year and that was the year that he passed away. And the friends he introduced me to out there I still keep in touch. The last time I went there was 2016.
RP: Oh, that’s good.
IF: Didn’t go last year. But, yeah I’ve got my memories and a lot of it is just like yesterday. I now, I can now tell you about my two gripes.
RP: Go on then.
IF: The worst one affects all aircrew is the fact that we never got our Bomber Command medal. And also our the head of Bomber Command, we always knew him as Bomber Harris and I’ll never forget there was a photograph up over the doorway. There was only one door into the room where we got briefed and it said words under, “If he says you go. You go.” But yes. He never got any recognition and we were never mentioned on Mr Churchill’s victory speech. And only, you know, not getting the Bomber Command medal it’s all them boys that came over and helped us during the war.
RP: Well, yes. Its —
IF: All the Commonwealth lads.
RP: It’s a worldwide thing, isn’t it?
IF: Australia, New Zealand, Canada just to name a few of them.
RP: Well, campaigns are running. Let’s hope we get there.
IF: Yeah.
RP: [unclear]
IF: Yeah. That’s one. And the other big thing was having been promoted warrant officer and two months later demoted to sergeant and if serving twelve months after that be demoted to the rank I joined, I think that was a big downfall of the RAF.
RP: Did anyone ever try to explain that to you?
IF: Nobody ever explained it. It was an Air Ministry order and from the date of that order that’s when that ruling took effect. I held my rank for about two months.
RP: That’s very strange.
IF: Yeah. And really speaking being out, being serving then in Iraq where I was in charge of a number of the natives working in the bakery, and the butchery and the slaughterhouse and one day I’m sir —
RP: Yeah.
IF: And the next day they see me with three stripes, sergeant it was a little bit degrading.
RP: Yeah.
IF: Yeah.
RP: I find that, yeah. Well, I think we’ve, we’ve covered your time in Bomber Command which has been a privilege to listen to and I’d just like to say thank you for talking to me.
IF: Oh, thank you.
RP: It’s been tremendous. Thank you.
[recording paused]
RP: Now, this is an add on to Ivor Foster’s interview. He’s got a couple of events that he’d like to discuss. Ivor.
IF: Yes. The [pause] It’s gone again. My mind’s gone blank.
[recording paused]
IF: On one of our trips we had a bit of airy scary. It was about the third trip I think we were making and we started taking off and unfortunately the old Lanc started to swing to port and the pilot couldn’t, couldn’t correct it. So he got the bomb aimer, the engineer to push the forward throttles through what they called the gate and they could only go through there for so long because the full power went on the engine and you can’t gun them too long before they’ll burn out and we were heading for the biggest hangar that we ever saw and we just managed to scrape over. And when we got the other side the rear gunner said we had sunk down a bit but after that we couldn’t stop the blinking plane from climbing. And when we got back to the station nobody mentioned a word about it.
RP: That’s strange.
IF: Like as if it never happened. But the rear gunner, he said he saw one man on his bike pedalling like hell going through this hangar because the other door was open the other side see. So that was that one.
RP: And you were going to tell us about the D-Day medal, I think.
IF: Oh yes. You see all those that flew from the beginning of the war up to D-Day they were awarded the Aircrew Europe. Unfortunately, it was stopped and after D-Day you got the normal medals that they gave you. The same as they gave the Army and the Navy. But what the powers that be never realised was as our troops were coming up through and taking over France and what have you Hitler was pulling all these anti-aircraft guns and all these fighter stations away from France and other areas and putting them around the big cities in the Ruhr. So, by the time we were there bombing various cities in the Ruhr the defence of the Ruhr instead of what it was before D-Day was doubled. All the, all the guns and that were brought up from France and placed all around so we were hitting targets there which was heavily defended to what it was prior to France capitulating. Or France being captured this time.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
IF: No.
RP: Ok. Thank you.
IF: Thank you. Now —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ivor William Ernest Foster
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rod Pickles
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFosterIWE180221
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:33:09 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Ivor Foster of Plymouth volunteered for the RAF as soon as he was of age. He was initially accepted for training to become a Pilot, navigator or bomb aimer but decided the length of time for the training was too long and chose to train as a gunner. He was posted to 186 Squadron as a mid-upper gunner and took part in operational flying and Operation Manna and Operation Exodus. On one operation a piece of shrapnel broke through his turret and ripped his Mae West. Pieces of shrapnel were embedded around his eye but he was otherwise unhurt. After every operation the pilot would descend from the Lancaster, stand on the tarmac and say, ‘Well, boys lady luck has been with us today.’ After his tour Ivor was posted to Habbaniya as an equipment assistant.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03-11
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Iraq
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Suffolk
Germany--Essen
Contributor
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Julie Williams
186 Squadron
622 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Stradishall
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/264/3412/AGrayLW170301.1.mp3
8141028f5d068b9ddb3bbcb25f8c5b0d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gray, Lloyd William
Lloyd William Gray
Lloyd W Gray
L W Gray
L Gray
Bill Gray
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Lloyd William "Bill" Gray (428691 Royal Australian Air Force).
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Gray, LW
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
LWG: Anyway look I’m in a mess because my wife just recently died and that leaves one in one hell of a mess of course and I haven’t been able to redress the place as it is, so excuse that.
RG: Right.
LWG: Tell me then, I want to know, why I’m little confused is that my eldest brother’s eldest son is Robert Gray.
RG: Oh truly.
LWG: And when you ring I thought he was the one that had been addressing me if I seemed a bit offhand because I thought he was having a shot at me. [laughs]
RG: Okay, no you didn’t, I didn’t take that wat at all. Yeah actually I am sorry with the name and the spot I would be [unclear] as well the correct way both of us, so yeah okay, okay I see that point.
LWG: You don’t look anything like him I can tell you —
RG: He’s a very lucky man, a very lucky man. [laughs]
Other: I’ve just got some kind of admin type stuff to do to start. What year were you born Bill?
LWG: Tell me before we start that I’d be intrigued to know how you got on to me.
RG: Okay what it is we it’s the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln there setting up an archive —
LWG: In England?
RG: Yeah, yeah in Lincoln.
LD: It’s the University of Lincoln.
RG: That’s running it.
LWG: Right.
RG: So what they’re doing is there putting up a, Lucy’s actually got a there’s a sheet there that tells you a bit about it, but basically it’s a museum archive for Bomber Command, so there collecting right across the world interviews with people like yourself, veterans, just to capture the stories, capture the whole story as much as we can before it’s all too late. Now how they got on to you was we are directed by a woman in Sydney, Annette Gitteritz [?], she was told about you by someone else here in The Grange, I don’t know who that was she just said somebody else here in The Grange mentioned to her that you were a Bomber Command veteran and that’s how she got on to you and she got your details, that’s the best I know Bill. We just get our records would you go talk to this person.
LWG: Well, I’ve had a busy morning already, the postie came and gave me that —
RG: It’s one of those awards yes.
LD: Oh it’s another one?
LWG: Well I, I haven’t got every, all my so called medals and so on, one reason they contacted me and said, ‘Oh well we’ll try and rouse that for you.’ And that arrived only by the post this morning.
RG: Oh okay.
LWG: So I haven’t opened it yet.
LD: Just to interrupt can you just do the intro on the —
RG: Yeah I just need to do an intro for the recording Bill. This is a recording with Bill Gray in his at his home in Deakin, ACT, on 1st March, 2017, interviewers are Lucy Davison and Rob Gray.
LD: The name’s William Lloyd Gray.
RG: Lloyd William. Sorry his full name is Lloyd William Gray.
LD: Okay. All right I just need to do some a bit of an admin here. Where were you based Bill?
LWG: I was in 3 Group and that was at Mildenhall.
LD: Mildenhall yeah, no worries.
LWG: Think that’s Suffolk isn’t it?
RG: Somewhere in that area.
LD: And did you only fly Lancasters?
LWG: Oh in operations yes.
LD: Yes, yes, no worries. Okay do you have a pen Rob?
LWG: No you’d only fly those things one at a time. [laughs]
LD: Now do you —
LWG: Plus I was a flight commander, a flight commander of 15 Squadron, RAF.
LD: Okay, so I can fill in all that. Are you okay that your name is associated with the record or do you want to remain anonymous?
LWG: Oh I’ve got nothing to hide.
LD: That’s good no worries.
LWG: Depends on what you’re going to do with it or use it for.
LD: So you’re Lloyd William Gray.
LWG: Lloyd [spells it out] I was told by my folks that I was called that because of Lloyd George.
RG: Oh yes.
LWG: Thank God they didn’t put the George in.
RG: Yes. [laughs]
LWG: I’ve never used Lloyd don’t like it.
LD: Can you just sign this one.
LWG: Well what I am signing?
LD: You’re just saying that Lincoln University can use the audio record that we have here.
RG: For research purposes.
LWG: Just there?
LD: Yes. Thank you.
LWG: That’ll do.
LD: Okay, not a problem.
LWG: I was born in 1923 which makes me too old for these things now I would have thought.
LD: The only other thing is if you have any documents that you want to donate to the university, do you have any documents or anything that you want to donate to the university?
LWG: Oh I’ve actually got my log book there what did I do with it?
LD: Just if there are there’s another form to sign to you know say ‘cos we would just take copies of them and there’s another form to sign but we can sort that one out later, yeah we can sort that one out later, no worries. All right. So I read up on you a bit —
LWG: Anyway where’s, where’s my log book that’s interesting I went and got it a minute ago and I put it down somewhere and I’m probably sitting on it. [laughs] Probably put it down when you rang the bell there it’ll come up, it’s easily identified, here we are that’s it.
RG: Yeah that is it yes.
LD: That’s not like other log books.
RG: No it’s different it’s a pilot’s log book we haven’t seen a pilot’s one before. All the people we’ve interviewed with one exception have all been navigators.
LWG: Navigators?
RG: Yes for some reason we’ve only interviewed one other pilot and he didn’t have his log book he’d already donated it.
LD: Oh.
LWG: When we get right into this I’ll tell you about my navigators I had three in all.
LD: Sorry.
LWG: Not at the same time though.
LD: Can I jump in again Rob please. So are you okay for us to take photographs of your log book and send to the university?
LWG: Well probably as we go along let me sort all that out.
LD: Yeah no worries.
LWG: I am surprised that you contacted me anyway and I must confess I was dreading it very likely because I thought about my brother’s son [laughs] I thought it was [unclear] taking the mickey. [laughs].
LD: No, no not your brother’s son.
RG: With the name thing you said you never liked Lloyd for Lloyd George, well so my father’s family emigrated to Australia in 1925 they came in on a ship called “The Barradine” and dad was almost born at sea and they were gonna name him Barradine that would have been the worst thing possible I would think. [laughs].
LD: Anyway if we can get, we’ll sort out all the other stuff afterwards, but like I said I, I read up on you a bit and you’re really a local boy aren’t you from what I read you were born in Goulburn and grew up in Queanbeyan is that right?
LWG: Yes that’s true, if you go back far enough, I’ve had a very complicated life really and I suppose if you want to know it all of course it’ll come out anyway not that it’s anything to be ashamed of. My dad was a policeman and I was born in Goulburn because there was no hospital, you could be born in Australia in 1923 closer than my grand my mother’s mother and father lived in Goulburn so they took me over to Goulburn to live.
LD: Oh so your parents were actually living in Queanbeyan?
LWG: No, oh no, in those days I’ll tell you where, I was born and my dad was then, I told you he was a policeman, that’s where you stay and move on as you get promoted and so on. I was born when they were at a place called Daysdale you would have never have heard of that it’s near Corowa, that’s New South Wales. And from them he went to, er, now let me think where did we go to Leyton, from Daysdale to Leeton to Jellico [?] which is south of there as well, Jellico [?] to Culcairn, Culcairn we went then from Culcairn to Crookwell, Crookwell to Kuma, Kuma[?] to Queanbeyan, and there I finished my schooling by riding a bike from the police station in Queanbeyan to Civey [?] every day. And got the leaving certificate.
LD: That’s a good long ride every morning.
LWG: It used to take us thirty five minutes and we’d be hanging on behind a bus [laughs] or a truck used to sit on. Do you know Queanbeyan?
LD: Yes.
LWG: Do you know where you cross the road there’s a bridge, a bridge side and so on we used to hang on there because there’s a downhill.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yes.
LWG: So that means if you took off from there you got your speed up quickly on your bike.
RG: Indeed.
LWG: And then we used to sit on sit on in behind Quadlings bike, you ever head of Quadlings?
RG: No, no.
LWG: Well they owned it, anyway he used to hate us doing that he used to look in his rear vision mirror. We went to school the four of us, two in, I had a great mate called Freddie Greentree, I don’t know whether you know Greentree’s Café, Queanbeyan?
RG: No.
LD: Mmm, a long time ago aye.
LWG: Oh yes everything’s a long time ago now.
LD: Yes.
LWG: We used to sit up the top there and as the bus came down, down, going downhill we’d peddle like mad get behind the bus and you’d catch your wheel right up the back you know and then means you’re in the draw of the bus —
RG: Yep you’re in the slipstream.
LWG: And of course eventually the ultimate did happen it wasn’t me, but Freddie hit the back and it threw him off and broke his leg and things such as that. There’s so much that you know you, I can talk about which goes through my mind which will be useless in a sense although that presents you the sort of person to you.
LD: Well that’s exactly it and this background kind of really is important because it shows the kind of you know the, it’s shows the people who are behind all this you know, you’re not just a pilot there’s a person behind this and you know and it’s important I think. Anyway what kind of work did you do, did you work before you joined the Air Force or did you join directly from school?
LWG: Er, well I suppose waiting for, well work I suppose, ‘cos then war had started then, and my brother was, I was born into a wonderful family in actual fact. My eldest brother was R. R. Gray and I don’t know whether you remember the name if you ever got a refund from the tax department it would have been signed by R. R. Gray.
RG: Okay.
LWG: I don’t suppose it rings a bill, but anyway Ron he became a deputy commissioner of in Sydney, but he was in records section in the tax department so as I came up to the end of the schooling of course he got me in at the tax department.
RG: Oh okay.
LWG: So I joined that and I was working there for oh how long was I there? Six months or something like that.
RG: Was it in Canberra or in Sydney?
LWG: Here.
RG: In Canberra here.
LWG: I was a despatch clerk and that meant I licked the stamps [laughs], and I used to get have them [unclear] was always bleeding [laughs] and mother used to go [unclear]
LD: They didn’t get you a little sponge? [laughs]
LWG: Well they did and I thought that’s ridiculous because that have you ever tasted the sponge when you, you know you’ve got a sheet of stamps, you’re not sending one letter out you’re sending out so they [unclear] got their share of it. [laughs] So I was there for about six months when I and next big thing that happened is I turned eighteen, ‘cos I wanted, I always wanted to fly aeroplanes of course. And when I was eighteen I got my dad to walk me down to the oh the town clerk in town in Queanbeyan and joined up there and they, I had a, eventually had a medical, a big medical down in Sydney, Palmer and Pluckett Streets [?] you’re making me think way back a long time now of course, but if you want to get a format of what I’m about you probably need to know these things.
RG: It helps, it all adds up.
LWG: And I passed the test there, that was one hell of a test incidentally. Always tell the story about the way they tested you Palmer and Pluckett Streets down in Woolamaloo, if you know Woolamaloo?
RG: I do I was in the Navy I was a guard and I —
LWG: Were you? Good.
RG: So I know Woolamaloo well.
LWG: What were you doing in?
RG: I was in weapons electronics.
LWG: Ah.
RG: Yeah.
LWG: Did you have an association with Harmon?
RG: No, never got posted to Harmon no, no, no, never got posted to either of those.
LWG: They put Harmon in whilst I was, we were in Queanbeyan incidentally.
RG: Ah it would have done ‘cos it was during the war wasn’t it, the early stages of the war yeah that’s right.
LWG: We used to have a lot of sailors coming in —
RG: Villconnan Transmitting Station [?] as well —
LWG: Villconnan was receiving, I’ve forgotten which one was receiving —
RG: Bombshore was receiving I think that was transmitting Villconnan yeah, yeah.
LWG: So.
RG: So medical was seemed a bit rigorous —
LWG: They did it down at Plank Street in Sydney, I remember I was there all day walking around with underpants, I can’t remember whether we did, I didn’t think we had underpants in those days [laughs] all day.
RG: You said the hearing the test, you said the way they tested the hearing —
LWG: Oh yeah that was, that was corny, I even laughed because everything was very serious you know, they put you in a, open a door and I stood there as everyone else was ‘cos there was a queue and there was a bloke standing at the far end of that room with the door, the window open and all the noise was coming from Woolamaloo, Woolamaloo then was a busy place is still is.
RG: Yeah absolutely.
LWG: It was busy because not because of trucks it was busy because of horses drawing the feed.
RG: Ah.
LD: Ah, ah.
RG: Yep.
LWG: And there was a lot of noise you know cracking of whips and all sorts, so it was unbelievable hearing test and the bloke at the window would say twenty-two [whisper] he’d whisper it, [laughs], and I would say twenty-two. [laughs]
RG: Very scientific. [laughs]
LWG: I remember on one occasion I should have [unclear] and he said, ‘Speak up I can’t hear you.’ [Raucous laughter]
LD: Funny.
LWG: It’s funny that, that I did a lot during the war but I’ve lived with it ever since incidentally you never got away from it because every time I put my head on pillow I’m thinking about the war or part some part of it ‘cos I was always in it, and a bit unusual as well because I turned eighteen and immediately I was called up into the Army.
RG: Right okay.
LWG: Because when I joined up with the, they accepted me into the Air Force incidentally except there was a ten months waiting list and did the whole thing but in the course of that they called me into the Army and I ended up being the defenders of Sydney ‘cos I was up on North Head.
RG: What unit were you with, sort of militia unit or?
LWG: 110th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment.
RG: Right okay.
LD: I’m sorry but just for the tape for the future they had conscription in Australia then?
LWG: Yes, yes.
LD: Just to be clear for the record that’s all.
RG: Yeah, yeah. So sorry North Head did you say?
LWG: North Head. Actually I had to be trained of course and so on.
RG: What were you doing in the battery?
LWG: Gunner—
RG: [unclear] or something.
LWG: Now actually it suited me because it was to do with the air because it was a Bofors Gun, do you know what a Bofors Gun is?
RG: Yes yeah, we had a lot of those on the ships, same guns hardly changed still using them into the ‘80’s yeah.
LWG: Well I went this 110th Light Anti-Aircraft tour of duties, and they took me first in the Army, took me first to the showground where I got my Army hat and uniform which is a story in itself, to get the uniform they used to, they had a big long counter and there were blokes there serving, serving you with your uniform and they didn’t come up to the measuring tape or something, he’d say, ‘Oh he’s a thirty-six’ or whatever.’ I remember I the first weekend after getting my uniform they gave us that weekend off and thought that was strange wasn’t it gave you a weekend’s leave which means I came back to Queanbeyan changed trains at Goulburn and we got here late, well early in the morning, my folks were still in bed and I used to creep in, did this a number of times. So on this occasion creeped in and knocked on the door and folks were still in bed, I walked in and my mother looked at me and she cried and she said, ‘What have they done to you?’ ‘Cos I could walk with the uniform they gave me and I put it on I could walk in that take three steps before it moved, before it started moving. [laughter] Sounds stupid but it was a fact.
RG: Oh yeah, yeah.
LWG: And of course she spent the whole weekend, which is of course why they gave us leave, she spent the weekend with the sewing machine sewing the uniform. [laughs] Unbelievable.
RG: So where did you go for your training with the Army, you were kitted out at the showground?
LWG: There was, you know where the racecourse is?
RG: Yeah, yeah.
LWG: Well next to that was another racecourse do you know what that was?
RG: No.
LWG: Kensington.
RG: Ah.
LWG: Kensington Racecourse and they’d taken that over by the Army so they took us to Kensington Racecourse where this regiment was. I was a gunner I wasn’t a private I was a gunner.
RG: A gunner yes artillery yeah.
LWG: [unclear] All that’s incidentally, I’m in a mess I understand that, most of that though is because, um, I don’t know how to take all this, if you want to, wanting I’ll be talk, telling, giving my story for the UA.
LD: Oh yes.
RG: Oh yes.
LWG: You know the UA? Military and they’d been interviewing me about that and I thought that’s how you came by —
RG: Ah it might have been actually, it might have been someone through UA yeah, yeah.
LWG: Could have been. Anyway they’ve been doing a lot of research on my history, anyway to quickly go over the top of it they trained us in, Percy Lamb, Percy was at school with me, he also did the riding to Cirry [?] and so on, and Freddie Greentree did, there was four of us used to do that, and he was called up the same time as I was and we both went into this Bofor Gun regiment, and ‘cos I’ve got to think back about all these things.
RG: So you did your initial training at with —
LWG: We went in mainly with a lot of old blokes and so on, some were young, and Freddie, and Freddie Greentree and myself stood out in one particular way we could read and write.
LD: Ah yes, yes.
LWG: Most old people couldn’t read and a lot of them anyway.
LD: Yes we’ve heard that before.
RG: Yeah.
LWG: Which is amazing isn’t it.
RG: It is actually.
LWG: Because of that he and I picked things up quickly, Freddie and I, and because we did and the Army we found was completely useless they were learning themselves ‘cos was early in the war, and Freddie and I eventually became, no not Freddie, Percy Lamb.
RG: Percy yeah.
LWG: Freddie Greentree, not Freddie Greentree, Percy Lamb, Percy and I. Percy and I became well we were best friends anyway, he was a bigger man Percy than I was I’ve always been a little squirt as they call it, and eventually we became bombardiers which is equivalent of corporal and we became instructors.
RG: ‘Cos how long would have you been in the Army by then for God’s sake not long?
LWG: Not very long no. I think I was only I can’t remember how long about six months I think.
RG: Oh wow.
LWG: And I’ve got a huge ringing in my ears ‘cos we ended up eventually in North Head, and you know what’s up in North Head?
RG: There’s a quarantine station.
LWG: Right on the head was a big coastal —
RG: Oh battery, coastal battery.
LWG: What was that —
RG: Nine point two inch I think they had.
LWG: Nine point something.
RG: Nine point two yeah, yeah, big, they were a bloody big gun those ones yeah.
LWG: Ah.
RG: I doubt they were naval guns.
LWG: And we didn’t know it in that we put in our Bofor Gun we established it there and put a bag —
RG: Sandbag.
LWG: Sandbag.
RG: Yep.
LWG: Protection around it filled it with the stuff which we were levelling the garden, the heads, and we built this high protection around it, now what was I gonna say about that?
RG: What, what your ears.
LWG: They had to shoot eventually, they shot, can’t remember if it was one or two, if you stand beside a big gun and they put a shell in it ‘cos you know how it’s done I suppose or may be longer and then they shoot it, we’d just finished building this wall around our Bofor Gun, knocking it down and putting it in place by bricks you know, and we’d worked pretty hard on that levelled it off and so on, and it shot once or twice I can’t remember, once or twice now, but you could watch the shell come out of the end of the big gun, oh it came up out of the ground it was on a lift and we didn’t know we had that, I didn’t know.
RG: Bit of a shock when it fired.
LWG: So we were there it just said that we were having a shoot today and the next thing you saw was this blasted big thing and they shot it and to my surprise we stood just beside it and, and to my surprise you could see the shell come out of the end of the bow and you could watch it all the way, and we could see them taking a tug boat —
RG: For the target.
LWG: The target, splashed in the water didn’t hit it, it was close but it hit the water, but this huge concussion.
RG: Concussion.
LWG: And both my ears are screaming now and can’t do anything about it.
RG: Didn’t put you out for aircrew service at all though?
LWG: I didn’t tell them about that.
RG: I thought that might have been the case. [laughs]
LWG: [unclear]
RG: Oh yeah they’d have knocked you back on that wouldn’t they. Did it ever cause you any problems with you know communication with the aircraft with the headsets?
LWG: Well I came through that.
LD: So once you left the Army ‘cos my little record says that basically you were discharged from the Army and you joined the Air Force the next day —
LWG: Well that’s the work we just waved goodbye they didn’t want us to go, and they promised us we’d become sergeants immediately [laughter] and they were going to send us to officers training.
RG: Oh okay.
LWG: That’s Percy and myself.
RG: Yeah, yeah.
LWG: ‘Cos we were —
RG: ‘Cos you were educated.
LWG: In actual fact we were a week there, in the [unclear] we couldn’t comprehend most other kids couldn’t read or write.
RG: Yeah we interviewed a bloke in Wogga [?] a couple of weeks ago and he said exactly the same thing that, that the guys he was in with in the Army most of them were illiterate yeah, yeah, he was in the Army first as well.
GWG: Illiterate sounds a bad word but it wasn’t their fault.
RG: No, no.
LWG: [unclear]
RG: Yes, yes, absolutely.
LD: So once you joined the Air Force did you, did you go to an ITS immediately, or did you have to wait for that to happen, or how did that work?
LWG: We were up in North Head protecting Sydney. [laughs]
LD: Trying to hit the targets pulled by tug boat.
LWG: Gosh I’ve gotta think back so far, ‘cos the Army was unbelievable —
LD: Doesn’t matter if you can’t remember.
LWG: Mmm?
LD: Doesn’t matter if you can’t remember it’s a long time ago.
LWG: Oh yeah but it was very interesting. I gave a list of towns where I’ve lived and at this stage, the first I’d been in the way of travel was the place which is five miles in distance and a million miles from Care [?], do you know where that is?
RG: No.
LWG: That’s Manley.
RG: Oh of course yes.
LD: Yes of course.
LWG: And we had gone, my family and I, had gone to Manley a number of times and so we knew about Manley, and so whilst I was up on the Head incidentally we went up there just at the time when the submarines came into.
RG: Yes, yes, yes.
LWG: Into Sydney Harbour, and so everyone was on edge then.
RG: Do you remember —
LWG: We had, we were a group that went was servicing that Bofor Gun of course but we only had one rifle amongst us and we only had one clip of bullets so you had to be precious with those.
RG: Yeah, yeah.
LWG: And I don’t know whether, I used to get as scared as hell so did the rest of us because North Head is populated by thousands probably of bandicoots and at night of course you’d be on duty minding the gun on your own and you’d hear this rustling and we were expecting the Japanese at this stage.
LD: Yes, well when you had the Japanese fleet of subs in the harbour, yeah.
LWG: And um,
RG: It’s probably lucky you only had five bullets or there’d been a lot of dead bandicoots. [laughs]
LWG: There certainly would have been, when you hear guns going off all night because —
RG: There’s all the shooting down in the harbour itself wasn’t there.
LWG: Well we know what was happening there it was all of us up there on North Head.
RG: Oh really okay yeah you’re centuries firing at —
LWG: Oh well yeah they get nervous.
RG: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
LWG: There was one bloke, we were in tents, there was one bloke there I can’t remember his name, late at night he’d all of sudden sit upright and scream his head off and that used to put you on edge. [laughs]
RG: So so when you say the Air Force came back and said we want you, so where did you do your initial Air Force training?
LWG: At Greatfield Park [?] we went in there.
RG: Oh yes yeah.
LWG: We went in there I think it was course thirty-two.
LD: That’s the same as Burt Adams.
RG: Yeah but,
LWG: Adam?
RG: Burt Adams, navigator, he’s the chap out at Wogga we interviewed a couple of weeks ago he was in thirty-two course as well.
LWG: Really.
RG: Yeah, yeah, pretty sure it was thirty-two.
LD: He said he started off in thirty-two until he became ill.
RG: He had a bad run he got appendicitis and got taken off the course and put on the next course and then and then he got put on the next one and you know yeah he had a bit of a rough trot on that.
LD: But he started on thirty-two course.
LWG: Ah. Well it’s interesting every time I went to a new place or moved on as we did I immediately joined forces with a special bloke and each time was fortunate enough to, to hook up as very close mates, we weren’t gay and all that sort of garbage, I don’t understand that.
RG: I think this happened in the services I did the same thing you’d join a new ship and you’d always be beaten and there’d be one bloke who’d was your special oppo and often he would be posted away to a different ships or whatever and you’d probably never see them again but you’d find someone else who’d be yeah.
LWG: We were all together for quite some time and he’s in the War Museum over here incidentally his story.
RG: Who’s that?
LWG: Colin Flockhart [?].
RG: Flossard?
LWG: Flockhart.
RG: Flockhart.
LWG: Colin Flockhart. His sister is a resident here.
RG: Oh okay.
LWG: Allison Aitken, she’s, she married —
LD: Is Colin still with us?
LWG: Colin no, he was killed, I think most of the blokes, my close friends were, would build up as we moved on of course we all went over you know that’ll come out in due course.
LD: So was Percy in the same, was he in 32 Course with you as well?
LWG: Yeah.
LD: Oh good.
LWG: But he did, he, we went to Bradfield Park, Bradfield Park was an ITS they called it an Initial Training School and you couldn’t I personally at school I did use to reasonably well at school I always had the ambition of being top of every class I always came second.
LD: That’s pretty good still.
RG: Yeah.
LWG: What was I gonna say then, ah, I hooked up with when I went to ITS, the first bloke I met was this Colin Flockhart, and we became great mates he was a wonderful fella and he would have been one of those blokes that was always coming first, [laughs], but he and I followed one another over to England sadly he was killed over, oh, it’s really is becoming dull this day. That’s my diary lets have that.
RG: Yeah sure.
LWG: This incidentally is a cover, we all bought one of those ‘cos there was one of the ground staff was making these.
RG: Oh.
LWG: She would walk around all these people who had got this book, we all bought one and it’s done its work ‘cos it protected the book.
RG: Yeah, yeah, [unclear] was sitting there —
LWG: Now what was I going to tell you, what was I —
LD: You were saying —
LWG: Oh this has got a list of everything you need to know here, what I flew, where I was, that’s all the places I was at, and you can have a look at that if you like.
RG: Yes I will thank you.
LWG: ‘Cos I need glasses on.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Bill did you do any of your training overseas, you know some people were sent to places like Canada and Rhodesia and stuff to do their training?
LWG: No, let’s catch up, we did split in this course, some went elsewhere and so on, but that’ll tell you where I went. The first place was —
RG: Temora [?].
LD: Temora [?].
LWG: Yeah once we got out of ITS that was Bradfield Park we went to Temora [?], [unclear] that was —
LD: Yeah but, yeah there’s a —
LWG: That was Avro Ansoms.
LD: Yeah there’s a bunker there still a communications bunker, a World War Two communications bunker there still.
LWG: I wouldn’t be surprised.
LD: That place on the coast yeah.
RG: South Australia?
LD: Oh no I’m not.
LWG: That’s South Australia.
RG: You’re thinking of someplace else.
LD: Maraputa [?].
RG: Maraputa [?] you’re thinking of.
LD: Yeah sorry.
LWG: I got my wings in Mallala [?] went to Temora first after Bradfield Park, then went to Temora.
RG: Was Temora was for single engine flying or and then multi engine at Mallala?
LWG: No that, they were Tiger Moths.
RG: So single engine.
LWG: Yeah single engine.
RG: Yeah, Temora, so Mallala that —
LWG: Mallala was Avro Ansoms, we were going, we all wanted to fly Spitfires.
RG: Of course yeah.
LD: They had other uses for those Spitfires —
LWG: But in actual fact one would discover when you got to England wasn’t the Spitfire that won the war it was the Hurricane.
RG: The Hurricane yeah, yeah.
LWG: Hurricane was much more adaptable.
RG: Spitfires had the glory though didn’t they?
LWG: Oh god yeah they had a new one out every couple of weeks and so on.
RG: A good looking aircraft.
LWG: Mmm?
RG: A good looking aircraft.
LWG: Oh yes, well they won that race.
RG: Yeah they did, yeah.
LWG: England to Australia, fascinating.
LD: Bill did you have any trouble qualifying as a pilot did you pass everything easily and you said you always liked to try to come first?
LWG: Not easy no, this was something new, it was, I’d only been, I always wanted to be I tell you what I always wanted to be I wanted to be when I was early life I wanted to be firstly I wanted to be a lion tamer.
LD: Of course. [laughs]
LWG: Lion tamer where did I go from there, [laughs].
LD: A lion tamer to flying a Lancaster it’s a bit of a leap isn’t it?
LWG: Actually I learnt a lot lion taming it was good, I had an, we had an Alsatian dog we used to put him on the, on a chain and put the chain on the clothes line and he would chase up and down, used to make a hell of a lot of noise.
LD: Oh yes, yes, yes.
LWG: But he was a lovely dog and I used to tame him I used to crack I had a whip, crack it and he’d look at me with [unclear] but anyway I wanted to be a lion tamer, but then I always wanted to be a pilot wanted to fly used to read books [unclear] have you ever heard of that.
LD: No.
LWG: So I always wanted to be a pilot.
LD: Well that’s good that you were then.
LWG: And the first flight I had we were at Crookwell, I think it was Crookwell, and someone came in with a DH type of aircraft and [unclear] well the pilot came in, came in and was talking my dad he wanted to take people for joy rides but dad being the policeman there he had to give his permission and he, the pilot was pulling out his [unclear] I’d like to had a trip and the pilot there was talking to my father used me as the lever [laughs] so eventually —
RG: How old were you then do you reckon?
LWG: Six or something like that, it was a De Havilland landed about three miles out of Crookwell and he agreed to take my mother, and my brother I think Ron, anyway I think four of us went up in this aircraft we got into a bit of a cabin it had a hole in the back I remember through that I could see the pilot I didn’t see much of the ground ‘cos I was watching him I remember, but anyway that was my first trip in an aeroplane thought it was wonderful. Then I used to build up, my big job in the home was cutting the wood and in those days you didn’t cut, you didn’t get a little box and I used to position them so as I could sit in the middle of them, that had wings on so on and I used to fly that. [laughs]
LD: The dog may have been quite relieved about this change in vocation I think?
LWG: Who’s that?
LD: The dog he may have been a bit relieved about the change in vocation.
LWG: Oh it was a lovely dog.
RG: So just going back to the training, so Temora first, then Mallala —
LWG: Mallala we got our wings at Mallala.
RG: And that was Ansoms yes?
LWG: Avro Ansoms yeah. Do you remember you won’t remember any of this, during whilst we were there or it was just before we got to Mallala, a bloke was I don’t know whether it was a Mallala either, but he was in an Ansom and another aeroplane landed on top of him.
RG: That was at Wogga or here in [unclear].
LWG: Yes it was here —
RG: Funny the top one the crew on the bottom were killed —
LWG: A photograph —
RG: And the top guy —
LWG: He landed them both together —
RG: But he had the engines on the bottom one ‘cos his engines stopped and he used his control surfaces and they gave him his wings and they damn well should have. [laughs]
LD: I’ve seen a photograph of that it’s just unbelievable.
RG: I think it was Wogga or here in Quinty.
LWG: Here in Quinty it was singles.
RG: Ah it must have been Wogga then or may be Temora. So that was the end of your flying training?
LWG: Oh no, gosh no.
RG: In Australia I mean.
LWG: That’s getting your wings, we got our wings of Mallala and I’ve got photo of that there was about sixty of us came out on this Course 32 and you had, I don’t know but I don’t remember how many hours we’d had when we got our wings and then they brought us back to Sydney or took us or sent us home and then took us to Bradfield Park again. Bradfield Park, we weren’t there very long but then they took us down to the harbour put us on the “Mount Vernon” [?] I think it was the name of the ship.
RG: Yes, yes, “Mount Vernon”.
LWG: That’ll tell you because it’s got a better memory than I have, that left we didn’t know where we were going, they told us we were going, of course all this was happening at the time the Japanese were —
RG: Yeah ‘cos this was the —
LWG: It was twelfth —
RG: 12th August ’43, even had U-boats down here at that point.
LWG: Oh yeah. They bunged us into this “Mount Vernon” used to be called the “Old Washington” it was an American ship and you always know when you are in, in with the Yanks, they used to have one thing they always be doing and say over the tanoy, ‘Now here this.’
RG: Yeah, they still do it. [laughs]
LWG: Do they.
RG: They still do it, they do though yeah.
LWG: This is Jo. Come in Jo.
Jo: Oh hello you’re busy I’ll come back later.
LWG: Alright I shall see you a little later on, okay sweetheart, thanks. She’s upstairs lovely girl yeah, she become, she was great friend of my wife’s.
LD: Ah that’s good.
RG: So “Mount Vernon” where did you go?
LWG: Ah “Mount Vernon”, they put us in the “Mount Vernon” we thought we were going to go north but instead of turning left they turned right, and we were on for a fortnight roughly I think —
RG: Ah yeah exactly fourteen days.
LWG: Took us over to San Francisco.
LD: So did you go via New Zealand?
LWG: Ah in that direction but no we didn’t stop.
LD: Okay, so you stopped, so you —
LWG: Went direct to America yeah.
LD: Okay, and, and you —
LWG: And they took us from the boat.
LD: San Francisco.
LWG: We passed out of [unclear] watch him — [laughs]
LD: He couldn’t swim over.
RG: I couldn’t swim anyway [laughs], I never even passed my swimming test in the Navy believe it or not but I still got to warrant officer anyway.
LWG: They put us on to a, on to a train at San Francisco we were on that for how long?
RG: Four days.
LWG: Four or five days.
RG: Yes.
LWG: Took us across America.
LD: These the Pullman carriages.
LWG: Yeah, Negro, there was one Negro waiter on each carriage. We were always we couldn’t understand how they used to treat the Negros, I couldn’t understand the Negros that they formed big battalions out here there were lots of them, you’d think that the way they used to treat them they wouldn’t force them to become soldiers.
RG: Yeah, yeah.
LWG: Anyway they took us we went as far as Massachusetts, I think it was Massachusetts this Camp Miles Standish [?]
LD: Ah that’s where Ken went.
LWG: That was an embarkation place not far from Boston and we were there for some time. Ah —
LD: Was it in the winter when you were there?
LWG: We were only there for —
RG: No it’s summer, summer, August.
LWG: Summer.
RG: Actually you were there for a while you were there for —
LWG: I was there for six weeks.
RG: Yeah, yeah, you left on October more ten weeks or so.
LWG: Colin Flockhart, who was my great friend we were together all this time of course, and we parted there because we were supposed to be there for ten days I think and eventually we were there for —
RG: It was about ten weeks.
LWG: Ten weeks.
RG: Yeah, yeah.
LWG: ‘Cos every time they were going to move the next day some of them would come up with an injection they gave us to test us, we had, one of the blokes got scarlet fever so we all had to be tested.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Yes ‘cos it’s so contagious.
LWG: I was a positive which meant that I had come in contact with it apparently this is what they told us. Colin Flockhart hadn’t he didn’t get the red dot.
RG: So he got moved out first.
LWG: So he went out first, he, he came over on the “Aquitania” I think it was.
RG: Yeah.
LWG: But we went down eventually they put us on to, went into this room in trucks, huge room, big pavilion and had doors on it and I didn’t catch on at the time, none of us did didn’t know where the hell we were they didn’t tell us, but it proved to be the side of the “Queen Mary”.
RG: Ah.
LD: Ah.
LWG: It was against the wharf and all the blokes were [unclear] and there were, I don’t know how many there were of us about a hundred I suppose, but there was sixteen thousand Yanks going on there as well.
RG: A huge number of troops.
LWG: And all the activity was there and they put us in this room and when we got in there I thought it was a big building I’d gone into it proved to be this ship.
RG: “The Queen Mary”.
LWG: They put us somewhere downstairs wherever it was and it sailed out, we passed the Statue of Liberty and so on, didn’t tell us where we going all that sort of thing.
RG: Did you sail in convoy or unescorted?
LWG: We were going in convoy.
RG: Right okay.
LWG: But the convoys speed was four knots that was open to U-boats and so on so as soon as we got passed the Statue of Liberty I remember “Queen Mary” we took off.
RG: Yeah she did thirty odd knots.
LWG: Yeah, altogether different.
RG: Did they, ‘cos we had Lucy’s uncle was a tail gunner who was killed and but he went over on the “Queen Mary” was the “Queen Mary” wasn’t it?
LD: “Elizabeth”
RG: “Elizabeth” but they used them as anti-submarine lookouts, did they do that with you guys at all?
LWG: [unclear]
RG: As anti-submarine lookouts they used them, they used the airmen as lookouts for periscopes and submarines and so forth.
LWG: Oh no.
RG: No they didn’t do that with you guys.
LD: Was the ship very crowded?
LWG: Yeah there were sixteen thousand Yanks on it.
LD: Were you guys hot bunking?
LWG: Hot, hot —
LD: Hot bunking no.
LWG: What’s that?
LD: I have heard of you know basically that the ships were so crowded that at times you know basically people would leave the bunks somebody else just comes into it directly that there weren’t enough bunks for people to have separately.
LWG: Oh no, actually I think on the “Queen Mary” I think we, we laid down on the ground, we were down like the fourth, we were underneath the water level anyway. And they kept you busy by putting you in a queue, you had to queue, join the queue you’d find the end of the queue and you’d spend all day going around for your meals.
RG: Yeah.
LWG: It used to take that long. And we were on it for five days.
RG: It doesn’t say here actually how long you were on the “Queen Mary” but it would have been about four days or so, five days.
LWG: Yeah, we went to Liverpool I think.
LD: You arrived in Liverpool, and where, and before you actually sent to an ITU and everything where did you stay?
LWG: You should be able to tell me, we all went to the same place when we got to Liverpool —
LD: I’ve heard Brighton or Bournemouth.
LWG: They put us on a boat, a train and took us down to Brighton.
LD: You went to Brighton —
LWG: And Colin Flockhart was there, he had the bed next to him reserved. [laughs]
RG: They put you in one of those hotels in the seafront?
LWG: “The Grand Hotel” I started the other one was “The Metropole”.
RG: “Metropole” yeah.
LD: That’s where Ken stayed “The Metropole”.
LWG: I didn’t get “The Metropole” until later on I went into “The Grand”. And incidentally when we got our wings we all became sergeants except one he happened to be the, his name was Tom Hughes, he was the grandchild of, er —
RG: Not Billy Hughes?
LWG: The premier, the prime minster.
RG: Billy Hughes.
LD: No the present —
LWG: The prime minister, what’s his name?
RG: The president?
LWG: Yes the president.
RG: Oh, oh, oh Turnbull.
LWG: Turnbull yes.
RG: Ah this is Great Britain, oh okay.
LWG: You go back you find, and he incidentally he obviously came from a special family because he was the only one amongst us all —
RG: Who got a commission.
LWG: Got a commission. [laughs] And he never ate with us either what’s more he used to when we were being trained at Mallala, I remembered you’d see him occasionally during the course of the day but he didn’t chase the mice and so on like the rest of us did.
RG: So he just kept himself away.
LWG: He always stayed in a hotel.
LD: Oh.
LWG: And that’s not I’m up to belittling I wouldn’t have minded doing it myself.
RG: Oh no, but you know yeah.
LWG: But then he was favoured he came with us in the boat to, the boats as well, but he, he came on, he broke away from where I was he went over on the “Aquitania” sent to Britain, England.
RG: Then from Brighton you went on to somewhere in Wales, 29 AFTS, Griff Pidard?
LWG: Clyffe Pypard.
LD: So what OTU was that?
RG: That’s 29 AFTS.
LWG: Didn’t do anything, I remember I taxied a Tiger Moth somewhere, Colin Flockhart had to hang on to the wing if I remember, but we, we then had to be, things started to move of course and we had to wait for our opportunities, we had a lot to learn. We had to learn to fly but by the time I could fly a Tiger Moth before the Avro Ansom which was [unclear] they’d been civilian training if you like just to how to fly an aeroplane used to have to learn to fly a little bit more than what they taught.
RG: So at 29 AFTS did you, what did you fly there was it Oxfords?
LWG: I went on to, eventually I went on to oh what’s the name?
RG: Oxford?
LWG: Yeah, Morris Oxford, not a Morris Oxford.
LD: That’s a car. [laughs]
LWG: It’s got another name, something Oxford, the Oxford and it was a very nice aircraft and a little bit more elite than the Avro Ansom.
RG: Was it a twin engine?
LWG: Twin yeah,.
RG: Twin yeah.
LWG: Oh we were destined for bombers then, well we were when we finished at Mallala in actual fact, I don’t know of anyone who went on to Tigers.
RG: Coastal Command?
LWG: And I’m thinking about it these days I’m pleased they, that’s, that was playing with toys compared with what we were doing.
RG: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So was this the Oxford at, that was in Wales wasn’t it Clyffe Pypard?
LWG: Clyffe Pipard, er well it was all, I never actually knew I knew where the pubs were [laughs] I don’t well that’s about the only time we didn’t know anyone and you’re kept busy, the amazing thing is and they didn’t say this when I went to Bradfield Park, we, we had to do air frames and learn about aeroplanes and the air and wings and all that sort of thing, but god that was the best schooling you’ll ever get, they started, the first thing they did they got us all in we all had to write out our wills, because that’s was happening of course everyone, and all the blokes, Colin Flockhart, and all the others [unclear] and the fact that I wasn’t touch wood about that I suppose that’s plain fortunate.
RG: And then?
LWG: Anywhere where are we up to?
RG: Well that was 29 AFTS and then it says here you went back to Brighton for a while only about three weeks in Brighton, and then you went on to 23 AHU at Hednesford.
LWG: At where?
RG: Hednesford.
LWG: Hednesford. Oh we were, there we, there we split up, Colin Flockhart he went on and I had to wait, they took me and, this is all [unclear] Actually I’ve had someone else doing my story and I ought to just give you that because I did all the research for that, that’s the third eye that’s —
RG: Mmm. It would be good to get hold of that but —
LWG: Anyway —
RG: So AHU is it?
LWG: We went from the Oxford which was a nice aircraft to fly but it was still a training type of aircraft and then ah, then we went on to Wellingtons. Where we were when we got —
RG: It said here you went from to Brighton to Hednesford, Hednesford and then to Wheaton Aston 21 AFU.
LWG: What’s after that?
RG: And then after that is reserve flight at Purton, and then ATU, 30 ATU at Hixon.
LWG: It must have been Hixon where I, I think where I was when we got our crew.
LD: Yes I was wondering about that crewing up experience.
RG: You must have done that before you got on to the Wellingtons.
LWG: It’s all so long ago now.
LD: Excuse me Bill where’s the toilet?
LWG: Oh yes sorry, in there third door shut there that’s the toilet.
LD: Thank you.
LWG: Or if you’d rather be more further away from us you go into that bedroom down there, be right there I think. There’s a light switch on your left hand side.
LD: Thank you.
RG: So would have crewed up for the Wellington though wouldn’t you?
LWG: Yeah now, we’ve got to guess the stage how I got my crew was interesting, er, let’s have that.
RG: Yeah sure.
LWG: Get my glasses what did I do with them?
RG: I did see them actually, there we are.
LWG: I’ve got them there have I?
RG: Oh no there’s a pair there, there broken ones.
LWG: Well you can help me.
LD: How?
LWG: My glasses, there probably in the bathroom are they?
LD: Oh okay I’ll have a look.
LWG: What have I done with them probably in my darn pocket.
LD: Not in the bathroom.
LWG: Oh it’s all right.
RG: In your pocket? [laughs]
LWG: There’s the aircraft I flew.
RG: Yeah.
LWG: Oxfords, we went on to Wellingtons, then we were on to Lancs, then on the Lancaster Mark 2 that had radial engines, then eventually we ended up with that got on to the Mark 3, 4, 5 I think.
RG: They had the Merlins didn’t they?
LWG: And they were Merlins a lot of difference mainly because the 2 the Lanc 2 had the Hercules and that was radial so it was good next to the ground.
RG: But not high at altitude.
LWG: Not high.
RG: Yeah.
LWG: But the 2’s with the Merlin engines lovely aeroplane, it was a lovely aeroplane, but the Merlin was wonderful as well the Merlin.
RG: Your crew was it a mixed RAF, RAAF, RCAF?
LWG: Yeah.
RG: Did you have one crew all the way through Bill or did it, did you?
LWG: Am not sure about that mainly the navigator was, I got my first navigator and towards [unclear] We all got to, no it must have been, confused where was I when we got our?
RG: It doesn’t matter Bill when you got the crew it will be in here anyway.
LWG: Give me my thoughts though, slow down.
RG: Do you want that open page again with the —
LWG: I’d be lost without this thing. Should have done my own research shouldn’t I?
RG: Ah. [looking through book]
LWG: Ah 30 ATU Hixon we were Staffordshire, and I started off with one, two, three, four, five crew.
RG: That’s a crew for a Wellington isn’t it five?
LWG: Yeah we were at Hixon and they, I’ve forgotten how many there were of us I think there might have been twelve, twelve pilots, twelve navigators and so on, and put us all in a room together ridiculous, and said [unclear]. Met another great mate his name was a nickname of course his name was Danny because his name was Daniel Carne and I think one thing that was outstanding was that he was, he had been a professional snooker player.
RG: Ahh, he’d have been handy in the pubs [laughs]
LWG: Yeah, I loved snooker as well not as though I was all that good then, but he used to use me as the wall that is he’d bounce off me because, we, he and I met one another in the snooker room of course.
RG: Right yeah.
LWG: And we both had a game and he’d say you can break so I would break and then he’d sink them all.
RG: Clear the table [laughs], so he was in your crew was he your first crew?
LWG: He was just like another bloke I met later on who was a cricketer, Keith Miller, Keith Miller, he just looked like Keith Miller slicked back hair.
RG: Yeah.
LWG: And he and I became great mates and I was always having to put up with him and his girlfriends because he attracted all the girls.
RG: Yes.
LWG: You know and so on. But he was a great bloke we got to know one another very well over the snooker table he taught me how to play snooker properly and so on and —
RG: So crewing up you just in that room and you just found —
LWG: Well they put us in there were twelve pilots as I was saying all the ones along, and they said, ‘Right oh sort yourselves out into crews.’ Which I thought was ridiculous, and I said to Danny I said, ‘This is ridiculous come on we’ll go have a game of snooker.’ And we did, he said ‘Good idea.’ And we went next door away from this group that were all milling around trying to make friends and so on which was just plain ridiculous, and after a while there was a knock on the door and what anyway, well there’d be twelve blokes came in and they had formed themselves into the crews but they needed a pilot, they said ‘We’re looking for a pilot, two pilots.’ So we, I said ‘Well.’ To Danny I said, ‘Well god this that’ll suit us I suppose so we’ll toss.’ [laughs] And I tossed and that way I got my crew and he got the others, and I had one, two, three, four, five people, one of them was an older bloke, Sergeant Lake he was to be the navigator and he didn’t want to go to war his wife didn’t want him to go to war and he had a lot of trouble.
LD: Yes.
LWG: Eventually the crew came up, he came with us and we started training and so on and he showed his true form and the crew came up to me one day and said, ‘We’ve had enough of George I think your let’s see if we can find another navigator.’ So I asked the CO whoever it was because we’d been doing a bit of work together, I said, ‘I think we’ve [unclear] a problem.’ I thought, he said, ‘Oh you’re lucky we’ve got another navigator here who’s looking for a crew.’ His name was Steve Tinkler and was Steve Tinkler navigator, Steve Tinkler, pas de deux [?] because he’d already done one —
RG: One tour.
LWG: One, what used to be called?
RG: One tour of operation.
LWG: Tour yeah, and he wore glasses, proved to be a bit of a drunk used to have to put him together [unclear] [laughs] He was a great bloke, but he was older, and he was a genius.
RG: Was he AAF or RAF?
LWG: He was RAF, he came from Ireland, lovely bloke had glasses, and mumbled a bit and so on, but he was, he proved to be, he was great with G, you know what G is?
RG: Yep, yep.
LWG: He used to be able to, he got that down to a fine art and now you should be able to turn here because you’ll turn onto the runway or something he was so good —
RG: Precise.
LWG: Advanced, and I was lucky to get him. So he did another tour with us twenty-four he finished his second tour, and then I got another —
RG: So when you say he was older he was only a couple of years older?
LWG: Yeah, but he was, oh he would have been in his forties may be I suppose.
RG: Oh he was in his forties okay.
LWG: Could have been, I never asked, I never asked him. And I remember we’d just changed and I got another, there was another bloke on Mildenhall Station looking for a new crew he was an Indian, Stanley Berry and he’d done some, I’d forgotten how many he’d done, he might have done six or seven or whatever it was trips himself with somebody, with somebody else and I lost him eventually not didn’t lose he did his twenty-four, and we went on our, I remember when he left we went to, where did we go where we went missing? That’ll all come out anyway. That’s the time we got lost at Stockholm, got caught in a storm and we were reported as missing they lost contact with us and so on, and Steve Tinkler was getting nervous ‘cos he used to listen to what was happening and they weren’t hearing from me and they were trying to contact someone, so they assumed we’d been shot down so he gathered all the gear and he robbed my wardrobe I remember and he’d gone didn’t want to wait, he’d gone by the time we got back and I lost contact with him then.
LD: Were you able to get your belongings back?
LWG: Ah, I didn’t know what he’d took he’d ransacked the thing, that was a terrible thing you know he and I, he was a great bloke, I used to put him to bed every night because he’d, he’d go into the mess and drinking he used to put twelve whiskeys on the table and he’d drink and then I’d grab him and take him home and put him to bed.
RG: Twelve whiskeys that’s reasonable enough yeah. So, so he was your first navigator or the first one was the chap who wasn’t up to it.
LWG: First one was George Lake.
RG: Yeah, and then —
LWG: Oh, George we eventually dropped him and he joined another crew and in actual fact my crew didn’t tell me about this until later on.
RG: Yeah.
LWG: He followed us with another crew and was shot down the first —
RG: First trip?
LWG: The first trip.
RG: So how many trips did you do?
LWG: Twenty-nine.
RG: Twenty-nine.
LD: And was that all with 15 Squadron?
LWG: Yeah.
LD: Yeah. And they were all in Lancasters?
LWG: Oh yeah.
LD: Yeah, yeah.
LWG: I, I, we did which is unusual, we did, I did more daylights than —
RG: Oh okay.
LD: Right.
LWG: I did some which day trips, I had, I was good at formation flying and stuff, and I always believed first I was leading the squadron, then on a couple of occasions I led the whole raid, we used to do that in formation.
RG: Any particular trips stand out for you?
LWG: Oh yeah, there all here, one was the one I just mentioned where we got lost which will come up in due course.
LD: So were you with that trip where you got lost over Stockholm were you able to get back to Britain or did you go down over Europe?
LWG: No well I got back, we lost contact. We were chased by [unclear] lights, runway lights going on and off we was at, we were within, right up here, Heligoland, terrible weather and so on we recorded. Anyway we got back and I didn’t, I hadn’t, we’d been chased by the Germans of course and I kept quiet and I was over, we got back to the squadron before they knew I was, that we were coming back, anyway that’ll all come out one way or another. Er, so long ago now really dragged us back, that’s why you’d be better probably taking what —
RG: Well look we will do that, we will take it them as well, yeah.
LWG: Later on. You can see that, can you see that one —
RG: On the top there?
LWG: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
LWG: They haven’t put it into a book form yet there doing that.
LD: ‘Cos we can copy that and return it to you.
LWG: Well you can do that, but there, there’s a few things that I want to change in there although definitely take them, I don’t like to lose contact with these things.
LD: Oh no I understand that entirely absolutely.
RG: Oh yeah this is lovely.
LWG: There’s a few things that I want to change in there anyway but more or less that tells you about what I’m telling you now.
LD: So were you or any of your crew injured during your ops?
LWG: Not to [unclear] the aircraft [unclear] we used to bring it back US and so on flak and whatever, but no we, none of us actually came to any harm in the air.
LD: Fortunate with that. Did you, were you was the aircraft ever so injured that you know you were damaged that you were coming back on one or two engines that kind of thing?
LWG: Oh yeah. Never did I have to come back on one or two for that matter, come back you’d lose an engine but usually you’d lose them for other reasons. You’re always being attacked of course and had holes all over you and so on and they’d have to patch it up, but I was lucky we didn’t get hit personally but the aircraft was many times.
LD: Were you more concerned about doing the daylight raids then the night time raids or did that not make much difference for you?
LWG: Oh they were both difficult if because leading the raid for instance you had to make a lot of decisions it wasn’t all according to orders and you had to make decisions and so on. We used to be going up and the Yanks were coming back in daylight, and at night time one of the big things that was always pretty difficult and you’re always being shot at and all that sort of thing, but at night time was like they draw the curtains down because everything was in the dark you didn’t have lights on.
LD: The time that you got lost over Stockholm, ‘cos I haven’t, I had heard that you know Stockholm didn’t have blackouts were you able, you said there was a bad storm, were you able to see any lights in Sweden to help you navigate home?
LWG: We was very lucky as a matter of fact because we were lost well and truly, the navigational equipment, like G and all that sort of thing went US and we lost our way and we were in, it was a bad storm that they hadn’t predicted. They sent five of us there to, what were we doing? Oh we were mine laying and we had to find exactly where we were to drop the mines in the right spot it was in this area of the water that the Germans were using all the time and we had to be certain of what we were doing, and everything went US with the aircraft when I took off. ‘Cos they sent in, they sent a hundred I think it was a hundred off as a diversion, for the five of us and I was sent from 15 Squadron the others came from different squadrons and the five of us were the ones that were doing, what they were looking for was to drop these mines, ‘cos the Germans were moving their ships with stores and so on up to Caterech [?] and so on up to Russian.
RG: You see right up in the Baltic, it was in the Baltic.
LWG: And we ran into, to start with, we left, we ran into this storm and it was very thick they were flying blind as we used to say and G and so on didn’t work when you got anywhere near Germany ‘cos they used to jam all that. And we got lost and, what happened, how did I do this, I decided to go low ‘cos we’d been doing that from probably twenty thousand feet or something, and so I dived down broke, broke cloud and I was over a big city with all the lights on.
RG: So you were over Sweden?
LWG: Yeah we were over, oh what’s the name?
RG: Stockholm
LWG: Stockholm yeah, and we thought that was so and it proved to be that but we’d been blown a long way out of our area and so on running short of fuel, on the way back everyone else had gone home because they’d sent a hundred over Heligoland to side track the Germans.
RG: Yeah.
LWG: And, oh god what happened, as I was flying back towards England it started to clear and I could see the ground well you couldn’t see the ground ‘cos it was dark and so on, but we did come back over an area where I knew there were Germans had night fighters and so on, and I noticed just in front of me the lights came on and go off which meant that was one coming one of the fighters being sent off, that happened six times when I thought I’m gonna have to do something now so I thought well I’m going to do the opposite of what they would do and as blind as I am I’ll get down on the deck. I couldn’t see the deck at all ‘cos it was dark but guessed the best area as far as the height was concerned the altimeter told me that and as I was flying over these lights kept going on they came on six times and they’d sent six fighters off and they didn’t catch up with me until I could see the searchlights in England.
RG: Right.
LWG: When one attacked —
RG: Were you still down low at that point?
LWG: No well I was lowish but I wasn’t real low. I didn’t you couldn’t tell it was just black you couldn’t tell how high you were and my altimeter I’d never [unclear] you couldn’t read it because of the storm the barometer changed.
RG: Ah massive change to the air pressure, yep. So you were —
LWG: Anyway I started and I had to do what they used to call a corkscrew so and I was good at doing I used to teach them how to do the corkscrew, that meant you didn’t do things finally you had to be in desperate situations and I used to teach that to the rest of crew in 15 Squadron, got a few bods coming along ‘cos they all did the same thing corkscrew was something that would help them out of trouble. Anyway we were doing that and I threw them off into the dark and I must have been flying a hundred feet at that stage ‘cos you couldn’t see the ground it was a bit of a worry, but eventually we came through that and ‘cos we were something like an hour late or something they’d written us off.
RG: You must have been dead low on fuel?
LWG: Yeah.
RG: If you were an hour late.
LWG: Yes we were.
LD: Were you able to land at your at Mildenhall or did you have to land elsewhere?
LWG: That’s where Steve or John, ‘cos we’d been described as missing.
RG: Did you ever have to come down in another field, another airfield?
LWG: Yeah. I remember coming down once on a Yankeedrome, they had, oh let me, what was the name of the aircraft they were flying?
RG: A 710, Liberator, Liberator?
LWG: You what?
RG: The Liberator.
LWG: Liberator, Liberator. And we had to be diverted once and we landed there, we all looked like a bunch of kids incidentally, and they grouped around us when we got to that place and we went into the bar and they were saying, ‘There only bloody kids.’
RG: Were they, were they older though?
LWG: Oh yeah, no they were all older blokes.
RG: Oh okay.
LWG: Oh interesting, we landed there and they were trying to work out what they would do with us anyway one of them offered to show me one of the Liberators and we went over and they used to carry cookies as you know, used to carry about twenty thousand pounds of bombs huge [unclear], and we went and had a look at these Liberators, and they said, ‘come and have a tour bombed up ready to go.’ [telephone ringing in background]
LD: So do you remember carrying the tall boys or the grand slams.
LWG: No, no we didn’t do that. Well they were using them because they wanted to penetrate the pens at Heligoland but they never did it you know. Oh incidentally, I remember leading the crew and I had to position the formation and we were, what was it, three thousand [unclear] daylight, we went to Heligoland and, oh god, I’ll have to study my old book again to find out what we did.
LD: So when you finished your tour Bill —
LWG: I didn’t finish a tour.
LD: You didn’t?
LWG: No.
LD: Oh okay.
LWG: They called the war off. [laughs]
RG: How, how, how many were you expected to do in a tour?
LWG: Thirty.
RG: Thirty okay. You know if that varied over —
LWG: It was automatic but all things went through but thirty was the deal. We all wanted to do that ‘cos the whole crew wanted to do that ‘cos we were senior people at that stage.
LD: So when they called the war off were you involved in missions over Europe you know dropping food and bring POW’s back and so on?
LWG: Yeah we dropped some food, actually we dropped food because I, they gave me the job of flying over our drome where we were to find out what height we should do it from.
LD: Oh yes, yes.
LWG: And I did that for them but I never actually, did I drop, I might have done one trip with food otherwise I did a number of trips on bringing prisoners of war back.
LD: Right okay.
LWG: Used to go to a place called Reims and oh this is a bit of tale might tell you a little later on. Used to go to Reims.
RG: Where were you when, what’s your memory of VE Day what was, what happened to you on VE Day when they called the war off do you remember how you thought about it or what you did?
LWG: What did I think, well you were relieved, but I didn’t throw my hat in the air and those sort of things. I was very involved at the end on Mildenhall, but no what they did is they just pulled the sheet from underneath your feet and you were of no use to anybody from then on you had to find your own way. Poms wanted us to go back to redress the country and so on, British were good, some of the Australians were bad, a lot of idiots amongst them as well.
LD: So were you involved with Tiger Force, or the preparations for Tiger Force were you involved in that in any way?
LWG: Oh no I think no, trying to think what was they called the ones supposed to deal with used to go pick up drop a flare?
RG: Oh Pathfinders.
LWG: Pathfinders. I wasn’t in the Pathfinder group but I was doing their work for them.
LD: Oh okay. What sort of work were you doing for them?
LWG: Just leading, we used to be in front of everybody.
LD: Oh okay.
LWG: I remember Pathfinders, I was leading I’ve forgotten which troop that was towards the end anyway I was, had everyone formatting on me and five of these Pathfinders came up and they took a wrong turn I think we bombed as a consequence I heard later on we bombed a prisoner of war camp or something, I’d forgotten about that.
LD: Yeah.
LWG: 5 Group were supposedly the elite of the bombing group but they got the pick of the troops.
RG: Pick of the crews and so forth yeah.
LD: When you were doing the day time raids you must have been involved with some precision bombing were you?
LWG: Precision.
LD: Yes.
LWG: Well none of it was haphazard I can tell you that. [laughs]
LD: Some of it was perhaps more precision than others, but were you involved in any particular raids for very special targets?
LWG: Well they were all special targets. Oh yeah, we used to go out in hundred or two hundred lots and so on and, oh, if you didn’t of course you‘d have Gerrys all over you share the weight a bit, and they were firing those oh what is they called, the V2’s, V1’s.
RG: Was you involved in the raids at Pienemunde at all?
LWG: Pienemunde.
RG: Did you do those at all?
LWG: Yeah I think I was on Pienemunde I forgot.
RG: It’ll be in here in the log —
LWG: No we knew Pienemunde, we, I can’t remember, we certainly did it whether I was on airstrips or not now, but that’s why that books important to me, forgetting things.
RG: Yeah.
LD: It’s not surprising it’s all so long ago. So once they called the war off were you, did it take long for you to get back to Australia or were you floating around Britain for a while wondering what to do?
LWG: No I was, took us back to Brighton.
LD: Yeah.
LWG: And we were lost souls then, no we were there for some time, came back on the, what was the name of the ship, I went through it around the world.
RG: “Stirling Castle”.
LWG: “Stirling Castle” yeah. Came back through the Suez.
LD: Had a bit of a Cooks tour didn’t you?
LWG: Yeah all the way round.
RG: And you did do a Cooks tour of Germany the cities after war I know it’s in here in your log you did one of the Cooks tour trips after the war.
LWG: What’s it got in there?
RG: You did Operation Exodus ones which was the prisoners, and a Cooks tour of Germany from your base at Dover to —
LWG: Yeah I was, I was a senior bod in Mildenhall and we were given the opportunity of taking the ground staff and aircrew around anywhere we wanted to go in Germany and that we called a Cooks tour, Baedeker and yes we did that. I did that in fact it was interesting, Molly and I, Molly was my wife, Molly and I went back to England and we took a trip down the Rhine. [telephone ringing] Excuse me I’ve got to take this. She’s took over from my accountancy I built up in Batumba [?], she was my secretary.
LD: I was wondering what you did after the war?
LWG: Another story altogether.
LD: Did you have trouble finding work when you came back?
LWG: Oh well, that’s a different story you’ll find that I’ve had a very full life one way or another, it didn’t stop with the war anyway.
RG: Well I’m just going to photograph your log book page by page so we’ve just got a record of that if that’s all right?
LWG: Yeah I think that’s all right. I didn’t make any extra secret thoughts or anything like that in the corner I just used to, I was too young, didn’t realise what I should have done, because I had an actually an amazing story to tell, can’t do it now forget things, and my brother Ron comes into that and oh lot of things happened during my life.
RG: Did Ron serve during the war as well?
LWG: No wouldn’t let him go, he, he became the commissioner of —
RG: Oh he was a reserved occupation.
LWG: Yeah, he was very wise, he used, he had signed your refund cheques [laughs] but that was not a big deal.
RG: I was always going to get a refund cheque.
LD: So when you came back to Australia if you became an accountant you must have gone back to study is that right?
LWG: Yeah, um, I have to think about this, I was working in the tax department when I turned eighteen, when I turned eighteen I was called into the Army and I had joined up into the Air Force, and after the ten months when I got into a course and started and when I came back I was still acceptable, pardon me, to the tax.
LD: Yes, yes.
LWG: But I had to do my studies which I did mainly by teaching myself, asked for all the accountancy work and they told me, oh when I came back I was a very sick boy I ended up spending totally six years in Concord Hospital I got a bad touch of the flu in London, got sick, got pleurisy, I was sick when they brought me home in the boat, and I spent six years in Concord Hospital.
LD: Oh my lord.
LWG: In three goes. And eventually they sacked me if you like or whatever, and in the meantime I had studied accountancy and I passed that and got qualified as an accountant here in theory and I was called back to the tax department and I came back here and Ron told me that you’ll never get anywhere if you came to Katumba to Canberra so we’ll send you down to Sydney, so I went down to the tax department in Sydney, so what street was that? Elizabeth Street.
LD: Yes.
LWG: And I was there for years and till eventually I got sick and I was gonna die and all sorts of things because I contacted tuberculosis, so I was in hospital for six years about and they told me I’d never work again.
LD: Oh right, yeah.
LWG: Eventually they, um, now what do I do with this, anyway I decided I would try for work, oh I got married [laughs].
LD: I figured Molly came into it somewhere.
LWG: Yeah I married Molly she was my nurse at Concord Hospital.
LD: Oh that’s so sweet.
LWG: Yeah she was a beauty. So she spent her time nursing me there which I, and I got to the stage where I was getting well, she was myself actually, until I was told they couldn’t do anymore for me anyway and we decided to get married which we did and I decided. They said the best thing you could do is get up in the mountains clean air and so on.
LD: Yes, yes.
LWG: I’d been the yardstick in sense for people in Concord, I got onto a lot of equipment and I refused they wanted to take my lungs out and all sorts of things.
LD: Oh.
LWG: I refused on that we decided we’d try and right it ourselves and we did eventually.
LD: That was probably a good decision.
LWG: I taught myself to, I had got the infection up here on my right lobe, I taught myself they said you’ll never, I had a haemorrhage, they said they’ll never cure that because you can’t stop yourself from moving it, so despite the fact you had to stop moving using that the only way we can do that is take your lung out.
LD: Yeah, yeah.
LWG: I saw what that meant and I saw people getting around despite this because they took all your ribs out, so I said no I’ll do it myself, took me a year, I controlled my ribs sitting very I used to get them to force me to use my stomach.
LD: Yes
LWG: And the lower lobes kept this one as steady as I could.
LD: Goodness
LWG: And it took me a year and they said, took me, you know those scans, ever had a scan?
LD: Yes, yes, I have indeed.
LWG: I had the first scan it was brought to Concord, and they used me as a guinea pig, and they put me in a room all by myself, near the hospital labs, heard this thing clanking, getting closer, and closer and closer and trying out a lot of bad stuff whatever. Wasn’t even aware of that, I became a guinea pig. Anyway after a year they said that cavity has healed itself, the best thing you can do is get up in the mountains so Molly and I got married we went up to live in Katumba [?].
LD: Oh that’s remarkable —
LWG: The best thing I ever did —
LD: Remarkable tenacity.
LWG: Beg your pardon.
LD: Remarkable tenacity.
LWG: And I hung my shield up took me six months to get my first customer basically built up the biggest accounting practice in the mountains and eventually, I had a wonderful secretary, in fact she just rang me, she took over I gave her the practice, she got her accountancy qualifications and she’s running the practice now, she rings me up every day if she’s got a problem, it was her she rang earlier.
LD: Oh that’s wonderful. Did you and Molly have, well yes you obviously had children you spoke to me about them.
LWG: Two children, boy and a girl.
LD: Do they live nearby?
LWG: One lives in [unclear] and Janet is [unclear]
LD: Oh that’s good.
LWG: And they’ve both got kids and so on so it’s all gone rather well.
LD: It’s a remarkable life you’ve led you know, especially this you know this section in Bomber Command you know you said when you went to the American base they were surprised how young you were you know when you look at those bomber crews they were you know they were —
LWG: Well we were only kids we hadn’t done anything in life.
LD: Yeah, I look at my son sometimes, my youngest son you know and I can’t even imagine him doing that, I just I can’t wrap my head around the level of you know skill and —
RG: Responsibility.
LD: Yeah amazing responsibility involved with lads that was so young it’s, it’s a remarkable thing that you all did it really is and yeah it’s, it’s you know.
LWG: There were thousands of us doing it of course.
LD: Yeah, it is important that it is remembered and acknowledged, it’s very important.
LWG: Of course the Yanks were a different thing altogether, interesting the Yanks do things better than we do, Australians I’ve got no time for in total sense, not real smart.
RG: Us Australians?
LWG: Yeah.
RG: Yeah I agreed.
LWG: The Poms were good but they had sense and did it according to oil, if you know what I mean by that because they do things according to what they were told and —
RG: What they were supposed to do.
LWG: The Yanks were different altogether they were freelancers, oh yeah they would do everything because they would pay for it number one, they wouldn’t do it on the yardstick they’d do it properly and I admired the Yanks they were great in their way. The Poms were good, the Australians they were caught short.
RG: Sloppy is that what you mean.
LWG: Yeah, not that they weren’t sincere and so on they were doing that but I don’t know how you’d describe it.
RG: Cut corners a bit or?
LWG: No they certainly weren’t better. The Poms showed us how to do it, the Yanks would do it, and in between the Australians towed it along and that wasn’t wrong. Incidentally Colin Flockhart he was killed and Rolly Wall was and everybody was killed around I was lucky and that not to be killed.
LD: What happened to your friend Percy, your school friend Percy?
LWG: We finished, they wanted us to stay in the Army because what I told you everyone, most of the people we went in with couldn’t read or write and which means they were taken from an area there was nothing wrong with them in a sense but they wanted us to stay. Used to do stupid things they weren’t Australians are good but not the ants pants that we think we are.
RG: Take unnecessary risks?
LWG: Oh?
RG: Take unnecessary risks?
LWG: Oh no, no, oh some of them might have done that no I didn’t mean it that way no, I’ll get into areas where I’m very critical. The worst thing I decided to do was to move out of Katumba and come here to Canberra and I keep saying oh what a terrible place this is, and it’s not the place the city of Canberra’s wonderful but it is, it has everything here just the people who live in it I’m sorry I’m not throwing this at you but I wouldn’t give you five bob and the rest of my family live here and their part of the deal, this working as a public servant is for the [unclear] not for real people in my book, well you can see the decisions they make, or don’t make, or shouldn’t make.
RG: Well Bill thanks a lot, you know, we’ve got a lot of good stuff. Your, you’re a Knight of the Order of Leopold, Belgium.
LWG: I saw you turn that up.
RG: Sorry,
LWG: No —
RG: Yeah, yeah, I photographed the yeah it’s here a Knight of, when did you receive that the Knighthood from the Belgium, the Belgium Knighthood?
LWG: There was two of us on 15 Squadron well he might have been on 622 there was another squadron and he did twenty-nine the same as I did and the routine was that at thirty you got the DFC and so on, he and I only got to do twenty-nine and the CO said that I’m handicapped here because the routine is you know thirty, and I didn’t do thirty I only did twenty-nine, succeeded twenty-nine. So, and they gave me, what’s it called?
RG: It’s the Chevalier —
LWG: Chevalier, Order of Leopold.
RG: Yeah something like that.
LD: The Belgium Croix de Guerre.
LWG: Croix de Guerre yeah.
RG: Order of Leopold, Croix de Guerre with palm [?] It’s in relation to Croix de Guerre 1940 for courage and bravery da, da, da.
LD: And the Belgium Knight of the Order of Leopold.
LWG: Where did you get that from?
LD: The Internet Bill, the internet you’re famous. [laughs]
LWG: No I’m not. It’s interesting the DFC was, I was ready to, I hated the tax of course didn’t like public service but I suppose I lost my faith in human nature when I see what happens in public service in Sydney I got fed up of that. So I applied to and they were advertising for TAA so I got called up for TAA, but because of my health problem I got called into the Concord Hospital at the same time.
LD: So did you ever fly as a civilian pilot?
LWG: Yeah a little bit you might have—
RG: Yeah a little bit there’s a stuff about Cessna’s and things.
LWG: Things didn’t stop there but I was part owner of a Tiger, what did we buy, a Tiger Moth.
RG: All right.
LWG: I never [background noise] down here you can look there and you see you know where Seven Cross is there’s a big store —
RG: A big tower —
LWG: A big tower beside it, if you imagine that as cloud just looks like exactly like the cloud that was over when I landed on and I landed on Woodbridge, we had to break cloud I had to dive into this and then I came underneath ‘cos underneath that was an area where you could see ground and I broke cloud underneath and as I was coming down there was a Flying Fortress coming straight for me, how we missed one another I’ll never know, he crashed they were killed they were all burnt to death I suppose ‘cos they were burnt, I managed to stay within this little cell, what did I do, anyway a very hazardous trip doing steep turns, I only had three or was it two engines or something I’ve forgotten now, yeah this plane was coming straight for me and I flew it down and we just missed one another, they told me to taxi up the end of the runway when I got down.
RG: So you came down with FIDO on that one?
LWG: Yeah, FIDO had the cloud, that was what —
RG: Oh that was what —
LWG: FIDO had pushed everything up and gave you this little area if you could get in to it.
RG: So they’d done that to get you down?
LWG: Oh no not only me.
RG: And the rest of the stream.
LWG: There was I think three or four then, a lot of the aerodromes had FIDO we didn’t have it Mildenhall.
RG: I think Bert said they didn’t have it at Waddington as well.
LD: That’s right yeah.
LWG: As soon as we landed they had to sell the aircraft put us straight into a bus and drove us out of there to get us away from the place took us straight all the way back to Mildenhall.
RG: Woodbridge did you say Woodbridge yeah?
LWG: There was three I think the other two I can’t remember their names but Woodbridge was the one that was operating that day. I could see it, I could see it for miles in front of me ‘cos I was above cloud and there was this tower and that’s why —
RG: Oh I see pushed the cloud up —
LWG: Yeah.
RG: Ah okay.
LWG: Just looked if you —
RG: Yeah, yeah.
LWG: You see that you can imagine that as being a cloud —
RG: So it was a beacon as well as —
LWG: Well it was because it was daylight, well it forced all of the air up until it looked like —
RG: A tower.
LWG: A three story building and it just looks like that.
RG: Wow.
LWG: And I, what I did I found I aimed for the bottom of it and broke into that area and it was clear only in that area.
RG: Yeah it would have been quite small actually you’d have been doing really tight turns.
LWG: Doing steep turns all the time.
RG: Did you have any trouble the last chap we interviewed he finished his tour and was sent to training command at Wigsley and he said one night they had a couple of MM110 night fighters came back with the bomber streams in ’45 and couldn’t do anything they peeled off when they got into England they attacked Wigsley and they attacked Waddington. Did you ever have any problems with intruders coming back into the after a raid back into the —
LWG: What day or night?
RG: Night.
LWG: No I don’t think that happened I think he’s having you on, we certainly didn’t run into that, but then at the same time we were running into late in the, in the war itself as I said when the war finished I was still on squadron we were going and picking POW’s and bringing them back. We went to Reims.
RG: You had an overnight stopover in Reims didn’t you on one trip?
LWG: Yeah, and we went somewhere, we went to café we had no money and the Yanks saw us to that they’d shout us, we went out we were looking for somewhere, it came dark it was night and we couldn’t find any, what did we do, we had landed at a place called, that’ll tell me, Juvincourt, Juvincourt, [?] that’s right and there were two hundred aeroplanes sitting on this drome we decided as a crew, we decided oh let’s go out and we’ll hitchhike into Reims, ‘cos they told us Reims wasn’t far away which we did, and I think a Yank pulled up in one of his jeeps and we all hopped on and when we got in there we found that was full of Yanks it was evening, so we went into, had no money or nothing, went into a a French café I suppose it was a café it was interesting there was a big huge marquee tent you see which I associate with that and we went and got into this café or whatever it was and the Yanks were in there and they shouted at us ‘cos we had no money and so on and we came out of there and we wondered what we’d do, oh, I suppose I should show you that, I’ll take it —
RG: Put that back on the cradle —
LWG: I’ll show you, I only brought that one through there more or less, I’m lying because I got caught in a landslide.
RG: Oh
LWG: Down near Wellington.
LD: Oh, that’s enough to make you lay.
LWG: They want to take my legs off told them no.
RG: [whispers] Turn it off.
LD: Oh sorry
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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AGrayLW170301
Title
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Interview with Bill Gray
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:06:45 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Rob Gray
Lucy Davidson
Date
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2017-03-01
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Gray was born and grew up in Australia and volunteered for the Air Force. After training, he flew 29 operations as an air gunner with 15 squadron from RAF Mildenhall. He returned to Australia after the war but contracted tuberculosis. He was hospitalised for six years, during that time he studied as an accountant, and met and married Molly who had nursed him at the hospital. After recovering he opened his own accountancy practice which he ran until his retirement.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Great Britain
England--Suffolk
Contributor
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Jackie Simpson
15 Squadron
3 Group
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
crewing up
FIDO
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
RAF Hixon
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Woodbridge
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1794/35710/MWilsonRC1389401-170113-100001.2.pdf
e091b70217cd293106ad0a7b6528b79c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wilson, Reginald Charles
R C Wilson
Description
An account of the resource
166 items. The collection concerns Reginald Charles Wilson (b. 1923, 1389401 Royal Air Force) and contains his wartime log, photographs, documents and correspondence. He few operations as a navigator with 102 Squadron. He was shot down on 20 January 1944 and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Janet Hughes and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-01-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Wilson, RC
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1
[underlined] MY PRISONER OF WAR DAYS
This follows the notes of my experiences in Bomber Command which ended with being shot down over the target in Berlin at 20:00 hrs on 20 January 1944) [/underlined]
My Capture (21 January 1944)
Parachuting from 17000 ft. in a strong north-westerly wind, meant that about 17 minutes later I landed, luckily well away from the bombed area of Berlin, in a quiet leafy place. I had descended through cloud and crashed through trees in a small wood in a suburb to the south of Berlin. I was amazed to find that I had sustained no injuries, apart from a grazed face and a sprained ankle. I released my parachute and removed my mae-west life jacket (these I hid from sight as best I could) and made my way to the edge of the wood.
I was now on the edge of a tree-lined street of suburban houses, and I could hear the voices of two or three people as they walked along the street. Somehow I did not feel scared, but nevertheless I dodged behind trees as they passed by. I think that the enormity of the occasion, and that I had survived almost without a scratch, had filled me with some kind of elation at that time, (although I had no idea whether any of the rest of the crew were alive or dead).
I proceeded furtively along the street and then quite suddenly I felt an urgent call of nature, and had to find a spot where I could 'do it' immediately! This was in somebody's front garden: I have often thought since what would have happened if I had been discovered in this position by a local resident, especially as I had just bombed their city!
The street lead out into a country road with houses scattered along it and I decided this was the best route to follow, as I might find a farm building where I could hide for the time being. It was now late evening, in January, and although cold it was dry and I did not feel too much discomfort apart from my sprained ankle.
I walked on through the night and soon it would be getting light and I needed to 'hole up' somewhere. I turned off the road towards a barn and disturbed a dog which started to bark. Almost from nowhere an old man appeared, who apparently was 'knocking up' people (farm workers start early in Germany like everywhere else). He saw me and he said "kaputt" and I nodded. I could have knocked him down, but I decided discretion was the better part of valour. As I was near the Berlin suburbs in Germany, not Holland or France where some help from the Local population was possible, any resistance here (in enemy territory) could end in disaster for me.
The old man telephoned from the farm and shortly afterwards two policemen appeared, one brandishing a revolver and a pair of handcuffs. He indicated to me that if I walked with them they would not handcuff me, but if I started to run away they would shoot me. As by now my sprained ankle was causing me
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trouble, I hobbled alongside them back to one of their houses, where I was exhibited to the policeman's wife before I was taken to the police station.
From Police station to Dulag Luft
At the police station I was searched and all my few possessions – my wallet, cigarette case, navigation watch, escape gear (some French francs, a map of Europe on a handkerchief and a tin of Horlicks tablets) – taken from me. They did not discover my special metal trouser button, which points north when balanced on a pencil point, and was sewn to my flies!
They opened my wallet which contained only photos and asked me quite courteously (by the odd word or gesture) whether I was married. They were quite impressed at the quality of my uniform (which happened to be almost new). They also asked me whether I was a 'Jude'. I often wondered what they would have done if I had said 'yes'! After that I was put in a cell in a yard at the rear of the station.
I spent the rest of the day until the afternoon at the police station, but it was not uneventful. Firstly a French foreign worker said, through the high cell window grill, that "sept camarades sont mort". As I still had no idea what had happened to my other seven crew members, this news was not helpful to my morale. Then an attractive German girl in high leather boots was brought to the cell door and talked to me in English. I do not recall whether she was practising her English or trying her hand at interrogation but she did restore my morale! This was followed by a police officer who appeared with my cigarette case and offered me one of my own cigarettes. I indicated that he should take one also. As these cigarettes were State Express 555 (a superior brand), it was a cordial meeting! He took me out of the cell and we walked beyond the yard to a small field, where he showed me several rows of incendiary bombs laid out, all marked with ICI lot numbers – obviously from some stricken bomber.
Some time later a sandwich was brought to me wrapped in newspaper. This newspaper showed a large photograph of an American airman who had been shot down. The words 'Murder Incorporated' were painted on the back of his leather flying jacket. These words were used by the Italian Mafia in New York who were killer squads in the 1920's. The German Press had lost no time in using this photograph, with the headline 'Terrorflieger'. I wondered at the time whether or not the newspaper 'wrapper' used for my sandwich was accidental or deliberate. If deliberate I was being labled the same as the American, although the police behaved quite correctly towards me during my short stay at the police station.
It was late afternoon when I was moved from the police station in an old Ford motorcar, which belched smoke all the way to a Luftwaffe airfield to the north-east of Berlin. As we approached the airfield the police drive stopped to ask directions from two immaculately dressed Luftwaffe officers. One of them peered into the car and looking at me said, in perfect English, 'last night?' I nodded 'yes' and he said, "We are night fighters", with a grin of satisfaction all
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over his face. In a few minutes we had arrived at the guard house of Werneuchen, a night fighter airfield, one of several defending the city.
I was soon locked in a guard house cell, awaiting the next event. Not long after, I was taken to the officers' mess and paraded like a trophy in front of the commanding officer and company. The commanding officer indicated to me not to look so glum. I suppose he was thinking that 'for me the war was over' and I should be relieved that I was ok.
I was returned to the cell and the guardhouse sergeant came in and talked to me in broken English for some time. He had been a bomber pilot and had bombed London some 60 times in the latter part of 1941. I told him I was a civilian at the time, living in that part of London, but that now we were quits!
I remember that evening, they brought in a large dish of macaroni milk pudding which seemed to me like a feast, as I had had nothing (other than the rye bread sandwich), since my eggs and bacon meal before we took off on the Berlin mission.
The following morning a corporal came into the cell. He could speak good English. He said he was in the guard house as punishment for some misdemeanour, but I think he was planted to engage me in conversation. He talked about the war. He had been in the siege of Leningrad and described the hardship for everyone. He said the Russians were almost sub-human, and were eating rats. The Russian hordes would overrun Europe if they were not stopped by the Western Nations. He also said he had been educated in England and his best friend was an Englishman. I do not remember anything controversial or anything that could be construed as interrogation.
Later this day I was moved from Werneuchan with three other RAF aircrew who had been shot down, one being a wireless operator from my own squadron. We were being transferred to a Luftwaffe station at Spandau West, which involved travelling with only one Luftwaffe guard (who was armed, thankfully) on an underground train through the heart of Berlin, crowded with civilians. It was quite a worrying experience (like travelling the whole length of the Central Line in London), wondering whether they would suddenly turn into a lynch mob and start attacking us! We were extremely relieved when we arrived at Spandau West without incident.
We spent the next two nights in a bunker, as the RAF were still active in the area of Berlin. Our number increased to 16 but still no sign of any of my crew. But I met yet another chap from my squadron who had been shot down over Magdeburg (just west of Berlin) the following night to me, and who had trained with me as a navigator in Canada.
Although up till now I was relishing the sheer joy of being alive, I now began to reflect on my position. Were all my crew killed? Would my parents have been notified by now that I was missing? If so, there would be weeks of agony before they learnt I was alive and uninjured. This was a time when all of us could talk to each other and we talked our heads off about our narrow
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escapes and capture. One chap had five pieces of shrapnel removed from his back whilst we were there.
The food we received here (in the bunker) was poor and indicated the sort of rations we should expect as POWs, the rye bread almost inedible – I don't think I got used to it the whole time I was a prisoner. Several of the chaps were in need of a smoke and tried to smoke straw from the bedding, wrapped in a small piece of newspaper! They kept worrying the guards for a cigarette until one of the guards gave them one of his. I learnt later that this guard had lost both his parents in a bombing raid just a short time before . . .
After two days we were taken in a Luftwaffe bus to a railway terminus in Berlin. Our journey took us through the Tiergarten area of West Berlin, This area was the largest park in Berlin and not industrialised at all, and as such did not appear to be damaged very much. (Perhaps the guards, because of this, thought it was a good route to take). As we approached the centre, the damage was more prevalent and Bismarkstrasse had certainly taken a hammering. On arrival at the railway station, our rather large party of guards hustled us directly on to the train bound for Frankfurt am Main, for which we were very thankful, as a number of Berliners on the platform started shouting and gesticulating in a threatening manner. The train reached Frankfurt the following morning and we were taken by tram to the town of Oberursal, to Dulag Luft, the Luftwaffe interrogation centre.
Dulag Luft
On arrival we were all searched again and put in separate cells, with just our clothes and no possessions. The cells were entirely plain and featureless, with just bed, a straw filled palliasse, a chair and a small table. There was an electric wall heater, not for our benefit but for our discomfort, as it turned out.
So here I was in solitary confinement, more or less in a void after all that had happened since leaving England. There was nobody to talk to, nothing to write with, no noise, nothing to see, just your thoughts to review over and over again.
It was almost a pleasure when an apparent civilian came into the cell. Of course it was the 'Red Cross representative' we had been warned about on the Squadron. He had come in with a bogus Red Cross form to get all my details, starting with my name etc, my next of kin, and ending up with squadron details etc. I said that, under the Geneva Convention, I was only allowed to give my name, rank and number, and after some discussion he left, having offered me a cigarette, which I took. Shortly after that the electric heater came on and the cell began to get very hot, so hot in fact that I was able to smoulder a piece of straw from the palliasse to an ember (by poking it into the heater element) but not enough to light the cigarette I had been given. The overheating was another ploy to unsettle you, because you couldn't sleep or relax at all, and the temperature could reach 120F or more. The next day I was taken to an interrogator, who was very polite and civilised. He started to talk about the war and then produced a photograph of the H2S radar
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equipment I used for navigation and blind bombing runs. He asked what it was, and I said I did not know. He then tried another tack, saying that I could be a spy and they needed evidence to prove that I wasn't. I was then taken back to the cell to endure another hot day and night. During this time, the only food we got each day was just watery soup, rye bread spread with 'marg' or some sort of jam, and a drink of acorn coffee. The following day was my 21st. birthday and I was taken back to the interrogator. He started off again on me proving my identity, I still quoted my name, rank, and number, and in the end he got bored and produced a dossier of my squadron (102 Squadron), saying that it was one of their best customers. I was amazed that he had details of my squadron and I would have dearly liked to have asked him whether any of my crew were alive. It was not until after the war that I learned the Dulag Luft were able to identify squadrons by the number painted on the side of the aircraft. Obviously they were able to match the crew survivors with the close proximity of the aircraft wreckage. He was also accurate about numbers of prisoners, as 102 Squadron was the second highest squadron for numbers of POWs taken in Germany for the whole of Bomber Command. After this episode my interrogation was over, and I asked the interrogator whether I could have a shave, as it was my 21st. birthday! He arranged this for me.
I was transferred the following morning to the Dulag Transit Camp at Frankfurt am Maine and my few possessions were returned to me – except for my photographs and cigarettes which had been 'lost', and my astro-navigation watch which was confiscated under 'war regulations'. But for the watch I got an official receipt!
My interrogation period was about average, but some were in solitary confinement for many days. I can only assume that much depended on the 'intake' of prisoners. In January 1944, the losses to Bomber Command (and presumably the American Air force) were high, about 10%. Because of the increasing numbers and the limited number of cells, it may not have been possible for Dulag Luft to arrange longer periods of solitary confinement at this time.
I was overjoyed to meet John Bushell (my rear gunner) in the party transferred to the Transit Camp. John had a bad cut over is[sic] right eye, which luckily had healed up reasonably well. After we were hit, the plane had gone into a spiral dive, causing him to hit his head on his guns, so he was in a dazed state. The plane blew up near the ground, and John only survived because he was blown out and able to open his parachute in time. He landed on a searchlight battery and was taken into custody immediately. I think he was 24 hours ahead of me arriving at Dulag Luft. He told me he had met Laurie Underwood (my bomb-aimer who followed me out of the aircraft) at Spandau in West Berlin. Laurie was captured by the Wehrmacht whilst he was walking westwards through the night, away from Berlin. We also learned later that George Griffiths (our pilot) was safe, but we had no knowledge of the four remaining members of our crew. Details of George's survival and the four missing crew were not known to me until after the end of the war.
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After my experience so far, the Dulag Transit Camp indicated a substantial change that would take place in our daily lives, due to the fantastic support of the International Red Cross. Without this Organisation many would have died, or at least would have suffered ill health for the rest of their lives. We were now prisoners of war but we would not be officially registered until we were moved to the next camp (although we had been photographed already with our RAF service number).
The Transit Camp, although under the control of the Luftwaffe, was run internally by a small group of RAF officers and sergeants (all aircrew prisoners of war). There were about 200 prisoners and we stayed for two days. During this time we were given essential clothing like boots, overcoats, and, almost unbelievably, a fibre case containing many items like, socks, underclothes, sewing kit, cigarettes, tobacco, pipe, chewing gum, soap, toothbrush, razor, and even pyjamas. On baling out some had lost their flying boots and had damaged clothing. It was also winter in Germany and no-one of course had any other kit. All these items were supplied through the International Red Cross. (At this time the items we received were mainly American.)
The Camp was well stocked with Red Cross food parcels and together with the basic German rations, the 'RAF Staff' was able to produce impressive meals in the communal mess. They were almost sumptuous considering we had hardly eaten for over a week or more!
We were also able to send a postcard to our next of kin, which hopefully would get home in a month or so. I wrote:-
"My Dear Mum & Dad, I am now in Germany. You cannot write until I reach a POW camp. Please keep in touch with the Red Cross. I am unhurt and quite well. Please tell Pat I am safe. Meanwhile do not worry at all. All my love, Reg"
On departure we were each given an American Red Cross food parcel. In some ways it was sad to leave the Transit Camp after such a dramatic change in our fortunes. But the Camp was within a mile of Frankfurt's main railway station and I knew the town was due for more bombing attacks soon. In fact the Camp suffered severe damage, with some casualties, seven weeks later and had to be moved out of Frankfurt.
A large party of us were assembled and moved to the railway sidings where we were put into 'cattle trucks' (presumably old French Army trucks), marked 8 chevaux 40 hommes, although there were more than forty of us to each truck. We were now in the hands of the Wehrmacht and not the Luftwaffe. These trucks, with a few bales of straw added, were to be our living quarters for the next three days. Our fortunes had come down with a bump!
John and I had not met Laurie nor George in the Transit Camp and I can only assume that they were ahead of us and were already on their way to Stalag Luft3. I might have been with them had my commission come through on
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time. As it was, John and I were travelling together on our way to Stalag1VB, Muhlberg on Elbe, a town about 30 miles east of Leipzig and about 65 miles south of Berlin.
The journey to Stalag1VB was a nightmare. Each truck had an armed guard, standing by a partly opened door (for ventilation), but there was barely room to squat on the floor of the truck, let along room for sleeping. There was one bucket for urinating in, slopping about in the straw in the centre of the truck. And occasionally the train would stop when we were allowed out in a long line, to drop our trousers and defecate beside the rail track! Our only pleasure was to enjoy some of the contents of our first food parcel (that which didn't need a tin opener!), together with a meagre portion of German black bread.
We arrived at Neuburxdorf railway sidings near Muhlberg, although we could not see the town, and we were ushered out on to the road about a mile or so from Stalag1VB. The scene looked like Siberia. There had been a recent fall of snow which had partially thawed and there was slush everywhere. Before us was a flat desolate plain and just a blur in the distance, which was our destination.
[underlined] Stalag1VB Muhlberg on Elbe [/underlined]
The road took us through the wide open space of fields to the east end of the Camp and we marched round it to the west gate.
The Camp was constructed at the end of 1939, then mostly tented, but eventually replaced with many wooden barracks either side of a main road, some in separate compounds. Each area had a latrine to cope with 40 prisoners at one sitting! (known as 40-holers). There were various other buildings, including two cookhouses (for boiling mostly rotten potatoes etc. and producing 'skilly' – watery soup, and acorn coffee). There were showers and delousing areas, and a hospital (of sorts). Also several small compounds with solitary confinement cells to punish prisoners for breaking the rules (like trying to escape etc.) There were several water 'reservoirs', (originally for supplying water for sewerage, planned but never completed) – a large one with a windmill driving a water pump. These reservoirs were often referred to as 'swimming pools' but were now stagnant and presumably retained to be available in case of fire. Two compounds had space for sports activities and exercise (walking).
The Camp was surrounded by a double barbed wire fence with an inner trip wire (if crossed you could be shot). There were six watchtowers, one at each corner, and one each in the centre of the two longer sides.
It originally housed French and Polish POWs, but by the end of 1944 it catered for the following nationalities – Americans 473, Belgians 66, British 7578 (including about 2000 RAF), French 1335, Italians 2321, Dutch 1269, Poles 2455, Serbs 736, Slovaks 652, Russians 4292 – Totalling 21177
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Each wooden barrack was divided by a communal brick and cement-built wash and boiler house. Each end catered for up to 250 prisoners, with one inside night latrine. By 1944, as the war developed, due to the continual influx and transfer of prisoners, the barracks became dilapidated, cold and dismal, and totally overcrowded. The wooden exterior of the buildings – a dirty black/brown colour – gave a depressing effect to the whole scene, especially in the snow, slush and mud of winter.
As we approached the west gate of the Camp, we passed through the Wehrmacht administration and barrack block of our German guards, to the formidable wooden two-tower structure, with a bridge across the road painted with the sign 'M STAMMLAGER 1VB'. On the bridge there was a sentry box with a machine gun and a searchlight on top, and two patrolling guards. As we passed under the bridge, we knew that our lives were yet again going to change to an entirely new experience.
Induction to Stalag1VB
We moved into the showers and delousing block, where we were searched for the seventh time before we stripped off for a communal shower, whilst our clothing and possessions were passed through gas chambers (not lethal I hasten to say). On return of our clothing they still smelt of gas, and I found that my flying boots (almost new) were missing. They had been 'appropriated' by the German or Russian helpers and I never saw them again. Instead I got a pair of ill fitting clogs made of bits of leather upper, nailed to wooden soles. I had to clomp around in these for the next three month, in all the mud and slush, before I got a pair of army boots from the Red Cross.
After this we moved to the 'hospital block' where we were literally stabbed with blunt needles by the French medical orderlies. These were our vaccination and inoculation jabs against all the diseases that could result from poor and insufficient food, filthy conditions and overcrowding. The one disease the Germans were really afraid of was typhus, as the year before, an epidemic of typhus had wiped out many Russian prisoners who were also working amongst civilians in the fields nearby.
Now we were registered as POWs on 1st February 1944, given a Stalag1VB number and issued with our 'dog tags'. We also received two blankets apiece. Mine obviously had been used before, as they were very thin and had traces of being soiled with excreta. Whether they had been laundered or not I don't know, but they certainly had been through the gas chambers for delousing! Luckily, the one process that was spared us, was having our heads shaved like convicts. We were the first 'intake' to escape this indignity. (We might have been in fashion, come another generation or so!)
Introduction to prison life in Stalag1VB
My first memory, now inside the camp, was the trail of British prisoners collecting their weekly Red Cross food parcel (not always a full parcel and not always every week). We were also lucky, as the camp, having had British
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prisoners since August 1943, was now benefiting from an established procedure under the Geneva Convention. The International Red Cross, operating from Switzerland, were the Protecting Power (who looked after the prisoners' welfare for Britain) and dealt with the German Government, who were the Detaining Power. British prisoners were represented by an elected 'Man of Confidence', who had contact with the German Commandant about all matters arising day by day. Our Man of Confidence was a Canadian nicknamed 'Snowshoes'.
Compared with ourselves the Russian prisoners were in a terrible state. They did not have the protection of the Geneva Convention and they had no Red Cross provision or repatriation of extremely sick or wounded soldiers. Those who were not sick or limbless had to work as slave labour (arbeit kommandos) in the fields and farms nearby. They were paid in 'lagermarks' but these were relatively worthless. It was fortunate that they had the opportunity to 'trade' for bread etc. with cigarettes got from POWs and also, with various 'rackets', were able to supplement their own meagre German rations. They were almost in rags, and the limbless etc. were in a pitiful condition, reduced to begging and crawling in and out of incinerators for scraps of food remaining in tins. They were often in competition and alongside stray dogs. The German guards gave the Russians no quarter and beat them for the slightest thing. Of course Germans taken prisoner on the Russian front were in the same position as the Russians, with no Geneva Convention to protect them.
Initially we were housed with the British Army who were originally taken prisoner in North Africa before the Battle of EL Alamein. They were moved from Italian POW camps in July/August 1943 by the German Army, when the Italian front line in Italy was beginning to crumble. John Bushell and I were together and we both appreciated the steadfastness of the British Army. They had been prisoners a year or two already and were attuned to the lifestyle. They were resolute and disciplined, despite the fact that they had not been liberated in Italy, and had suffered poor treatment and lack of food under the Italians in their prison camps. As we were only eleven days out of England they wanted to know all the latest news from home.
Our first impression of the barracks was abysmal. On the right hand side were three tiers of rickety bunks in blocks of twelve, separated by a small corridor between each block. These continued up the right hand side and some over to the left hand side. In the centre at each end, there was a stove and a hotplate connected by a horizontal flue to a central chimney. On the left hand side of the flue, there were 'gim-crack' tables built up from basic wooden forms, and further forms either side for seating. In this area, 83 ft. x 40 ft., (about as long, but 7 ft. wider than my back garden) up to 250 prisoners had to live, cook, eat and sleep. The overcrowding and noise could be overwhelming especially after curfew. Clothing and personal possessions had to be stored on the bunks. The bottom bunk occupant was lucky as he had some space underneath, and the top bunk occupant did not suffer from straw and dust etc. falling down from the straw-stuffed palliasse of the bunk above! The floors were like barn floors, with bricks set in earth. Lighting was supplied
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by four 25 watt bulbs. Daylight was poor as many windows were broken and boarded up. There was a night latrine in the entrance – just a seat with a concrete cesspit underneath – which stank like hell day and night. The wash and boiler house that divided the two barracks had large concrete troughs with several spray jets that had long since ceased to function. Anyway the water supply was sporadic and it was a problem to keep the boiler full, for making communal brews during the day. Here we washed our clothes when we could and had our daily ablutions. Washes were often carried out with a 'Klim' tin of water ('Klim', the reverse of 'Milk', was the name of the Canadian milk powder it had contained). It required great skill to get an adequate wash with that amount of water! The drainage system was poor and leaked most of the time. As a result there was a constant trickle of dank water down the main road that separated most of the huts.
After three weeks the RAF contingent were transferred to the RAF compound where about 2000 (mostly aircrew) were housed. This compound was lockable and when we got too boisterous we were locked in as punishment. Here I met several chaps who were on 102 Squadron or previously were on the same training courses. Those from 102 Squadron wanted to know whether they had been reported as POWs. Of course we didn't know, because 1943 – 1944 was a bad time for losses, and we were missing and in Germany, before they were reported, at home, as POWs.
Our lives revolved around food and keeping warm
There is no doubt these primary requirements of life are paramount in a prison camp. Under the Geneva Convention only basic provisions were supplied by Germany. We were not required to work (being officers or non-commissioned officers), thus food rations were the bare minimum and often of poor quality. The International Red Cross were the organisation to supplement the needs of prisoners of war. Operating from Geneva it co-ordinated the supply of goods and distributed them to Working Parties, Stalags and Oflags, throughout Germany. The supply was mainly food, but clothing, books, musical instruments, even correspondence courses for professional exams, were organised for some camps. Supplies were often erratic, governed by the war situation. It was obviously not the first priority in the German distribution system, especially as the war progressed, when their transport infrastructure was virtually destroyed by the RAF and the American Air Force.
The daily ration issued by the Germans consisted of about three boiled potatoes (often nearly rotten after months stored in clamps), and a ladle of watery soup (called 'skilly') made with turnips, swede, millet, barley, dried sauerkraut, or peas. These were issued at midday in skilly buckets, from the cookhouse. (There were two cookhouses one British, the other French which also catered for other nationals). The pea soup was the most desirable skilly, and many rows broke out on how the small leftover should be divided. Each barrack had an elected leader and two or three colleagues to assist him in making minor decisions and sharing out any communal chores – the pea soup share out was one of his problems. In our barracks, after a vote by everybody.
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it was decided that the leftover should be shared out equally, pea by pea if necessary!
In the afternoon, a piece of black bread, about an inch or so thick, a small piece of margarine and a spoonful of jam (made from beetroot); sugar or meat paste completed the hard rations. Several pails of ersatz coffee (made from roasted acorns) were usually put into the washhouse boiler for a hot drink later.
The Red Cross food parcel was based on the requirements of one person for a week. The parcels came from various countries, Britain (including Scotland), America, Canada, New Zealand, Argentine (bulk rations), and sometimes France or Belgium. A British parcel contained a number of the following: tin of condensed milk, 2oz tea, tin of cocoa, 4oz sugar, 8oz margarine, tin of biscuits, 8oz jam, marmalade or syrup, 2oz processed cheese, pkt dried fruit or tin of fruit pudding or creamed rice, rolled oats or oatmeal, tin of meat & veg, steak & kidney pudding or other varieties, tin of sausages or meat roll, sometimes a tin of bacon or Yorkshire pudding (instead of cocoa), tin of egg powder, sometimes a carton of sweets, 4oz bar of chocolate, tin of veg (peas, carrots etc.), tin of salmon or pilchards, bar of soap, sometimes pkt of salt, pepper, or mustard. American parcels and some others contained cigarettes, but alternatively there was a separate issue of 50 cigarettes a week if whole parcels were issued. But it could be only 25 a week or none, according to the availability of parcels. (Cigarettes were used throughout the camp as the main currency for trading and racketeering!)
Together, the German ration and a full parcel every week was Utopia for us. Of course there were weeks when we had only half parcels – or no parcels – when distribution was disrupted for a variety of reasons. So 'tinned stuff' had to be saved for hungry times. Most prisoners joined together in two's or more to share and prepare their food. The term for this was 'mucking in' and groups were called 'muckers'. John Bushell and I became 'muckers' and decided that we would prepare our food together everyday.
On arrival we were given a dixie and spoon each, not much for preparing food, cooking, eating and drinking. We had to acquire knives, drinking cups and plates etc. to start up, which we got with cigarettes from fellow 'kriegies' (established prisoners of war). The kriegies would have got the knives from the Russians, the cups and plates would have been made from Red Cross tins by a kriegie skilled in 'tin bashing'. Cups were Canadian 'Maple Leaf' butter tins with a handle made from a strip of tin attached to another strip, which was clamped to the top and bottom of the butter tin. Plates and dishes for heating or frying food, were made from flattened out Scotch biscuit tins turned up at the sides and the corners folded in. Scotch biscuit tins were ideal for all sorts of things, I don't know what we would have done without them!
The cooking stoves, one at each end of the barracks, were controlled by two stokers. The ovens were not used and only the hot plates were in action. Coal dust (compressed into briquettes) used for cooking and strictly rationed for each barrack, meant that the stoves would only operate at lunch time. The
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remainder of the briquettes were allocated to the washhouse, for use in the boiler for 'brewing up' during the day. Because the briquettes were rationed and were under the supervision of the guards, several attempts were made by various barracks to get more by false pretences. One barrack managed to get a spare set of keys to the briquettes store and organised a parade. By marching specially, with their familiar plywood Red Cross container, as if under the control of the guards, they got another issue. But I don't think they managed it twice! Our barrack was luckier in this respect. There was a German Jew in our barrack whose family left Germany before the war. He became a naturalised British subject, joined RAF ground crew and became a member of an Advanced Airfield Unit and was posted to the Island of Kos. He became at POW after the Germans invaded the Island in October 1943 and he was moved to Muhlberg. He could speak fluent German and was able to bribe two of the guards (who, with dogs, patrolled the camp after curfew) to stay away on certain nights from patrolling the French cookhouse. This cookhouse, adjacent to our compound and opposite our barracks, had a large store of briquettes in the cellar which could be accessed by cutting the barbed wire between our compound and the cookhouse. A group of volunteers in the barracks 'stood by' for these arrangements, and when the barrack leader announced, in true RAF parlance, "Ops on tonight", there was great activity.
Prior to the first of these operations, the floor bricks had been removed from under one of the bunks. A pit had been dug and covered up with a false floor made of plywood from Red Cross packing cases. The removed floor bricks were then put back on the plywood, and earth spread in between the bricks. In the gloom of the barracks it was almost impossible to detect any disturbance in the brick floor.
On 'Ops' night, the pit was opened up, kit bags were borrowed and half the night, kitbags full of briquettes removed from the cookhouse cellar, were unloaded almost silently into the pit. Well before daylight the barbed wire was reconnected, the floor and bricks replaced and everybody involved, back in their bunks. The pit, which also housed other things that needed to be hidden, was never discovered, despite many random searches that were carried out. This activity was carried out every few weeks and meant that we were the most 'well provided for' barracks for cooking and the warmest in the whole camp, until the autumn of 1944.
Back to cooking, the stokers maintained strict control over the hot plates so that everyone had an opportunity to heat, boil or fry their food either in the tin, dixie or dish, by moving them in progression across the hottest part of the hot plate. Nevertheless there were accidents, when dishes caught fire and tins exploded (many of the contents like creamed rice hit the roof above!), or food was cremated as the hot plate suddenly went red hot in one spot. BRC bacon when frying could spit hot fat everywhere and those near the stove had to dive for cover!
John and I, like most 'muckers', tried to add as much variety as possible to our meals. We would save barley soup for breakfast and convert it into porridge by adding sugar, or as a pudding at tea time, by adding dried fruit
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etc. Biscuits could be crumbled and mixed with various things. Sometimes our meagre almost inedible bread ration would be mixed with fruit, meat or fish items to make more acceptable bulk. Most of the 'skilly' (soup items), turnip, swede, or millet (bird seed), we consumed straight away, especially if we were hungry. During the period of receiving a weekly full parcel, most of the skilly and some of the dry rations were given to the Russian amputees and later, to the Italians.
Heating water for tea and coffee was difficult. The Army kriegies from the Italian prison camps brought with them a design of a water heater called a 'blower'. It was a fan operated device which, by means of a belt driving the fan at high speed, forced air into a firebox. The firebox was filled with anything burnable (pine cones, chips of wood and cardboard) and a dixie of water placed on top would be boiling in a few minutes. 'Blowers' were made from Red Cross food tins and plywood, mounted on a bed board taken from a bunk. They were hazardous devices and confined to the wash house. Unfortunately the guards did not approve of these contraptions and they frequently destroyed them. In a short time more were made, and then there were even fewer bed boards to some of the bunks!
The more organised way of providing hot drinks, an essential requirement in cold, draughty and damp huts, was to use the boiler in the wash house for communal brews. It was agreed that the issue of ersatz coffee would be reheated this way, and everybody would give up some of their tea, coffee and cocoa ration for regular hot drinks. The boiler-man would shout out "brew up" six or seven times a day and bodies would appear from bunks and everywhere with mugs and dixies for their ration.
Camp roll call ('Appel')
Everyday at 6.30 a.m. the camp was awakened by guards running through the hut shouting "rouse, rouse", and in quick time we had to dress and form up in rows of 'fumf's' (fives), barrack by barrack in the compound. Whilst the Army in their compounds, who were well disciplined, had their count finished in no-time, the RAF were always late and virtually had to be driven out of their barracks. The guards regularly found stragglers still asleep in their bunks, or they were not all lined up in fives. The German unteroffizier in charge (a relatively young guard who had been wounded on the Russian Front, nicknamed 'Blondie' for his flaxen hair), was often at his wit's end. As a result of these events day after day, Blondie would keep the offending barrack standing for hours in the slush and the snow. On one occasion, a member of another barrack brought out a chair for Blondie to sit on whilst this punishment was in progress, which he took in good part. But when, in another situation he drew his pistol, it was time to call this game to an end!
Although roll call was always at 6.30 in the morning, curfew was later in the summer months, up to 9.30 p.m., which made life much more pleasant as it shortened the time we were incarcerated in the huts.
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Not long after I reached the camp, it was probably towards the end of winter, typhus and diptheria broke out and the whole camp was quarantined. Typhus was to be expected at any time. It usually affected the Russians but it could break out anywhere. I can recall being bitten all over my body with bed bugs. Our palliasses were never replaced and were pretty filthy sacks of straw. Living in such overcrowded conditions, lice, fleas, and bedbugs abounded. It was one of the most depressing times I can remember.
Quarantine meant that there was no roll call in the compound. No-one was allowed outside the barracks for about a month, and this was enforced by having an armed guard posted outside each barrack entrance. Supplies were brought to the barracks and there was only the inside latrine to serve 200 or more of us, day and night.
The Honey Cart
When the camp was first built, a sewer system was planned to take the sewage to the river Elbe some miles away. Camp reservoirs were dug to provide the water supply. This plan was soon abandoned, and latrines with concrete septic tanks installed instead. Each barrack had an inside night latrine and to each compound, one or more forty-seater day latrine buildings were added. Inside these there were four rows of boxed seats, each with ten holes, mounted above a large tank. No-one felt alone in a forty-holer!
With more than 20,000 prisoners, the removal of the sewage was a permanent daily task for a small 'army' of the Russian Kommandos. Through a trap door on the ground outside the latrine a long pipe connected to a hand pump was inserted into the decomposed sewage. With every operation of the pump lever, decomposed sewage was squirted into the hopper of a long wooden barrel which was mounted on an ox-cart. The whole design could have been invented in medieval times and was about as labour intensive as in those days. It generated the most foul stench with every pump movement and was christened 'the honey cart'.
Many honey carts were in action daily all over the camp. They leaked and left their signature everywhere, in a trail on their way out of the main gate to the local fields, where they fertilized the crops. Some of the inferior crops we might consume in our skilly in a few months' time!
In my view the condition of the latrines and inadequate method of sewage disposal for over 20,000 prisoners, was beyond belief. The German nation, known for its discipline, thoroughness and cleanliness, had at that time a blot on its character in the way it dealt with prisoners of war in Stalag 1VB – and probably other camps as well.
There was also no provision for toilet paper and we had to resort to all sorts of solutions, Red Cross tin labels and reading books had to be sacrificed. On one occasion after a Red Cross inspection, when we complained about the lack of toilet paper, we did receive some 'toilet paper' from the Germans, in the form of propaganda booklets printed in English. One entitled 'Jews Must
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Live' and the other 'The Who's Who of Jews', which listed all the prominent people in the western world and whether they were Jews or not, including Churchill (who was not listed as a Jew).
Activities in Stalag1VB
With over 7500 British prisoners, there were many talented people – and those who discovered they had talents – in the camp. Some lectured on their subjects in a small hut set aside as a class room; others were actors or musicians (mostly amateur I believe) who produced fantastic shows in a theatre and in the barracks. And then there were the footballers, cricketers and rugby players, who played on pitches available in one of two compounds.
Studies
There was no facility to study for professional exams, mainly I believe, because the British had come to the camp only months before and there was no opportunity to set up a facility at this stage of the war. Also the overcrowding in the barracks made it impossible for serious study, due to the lack of space, and the noise of cooking, washing and general chatter etc. This was made worse in the winter months, because of the extended length of time we were herded together between curfew at night and morning roll call.
I did manage to study several subjects, mainly to keep my mind occupied on matters of general interest to me. These were radio, intermediate maths, photography and psychology. The latter two closed down shortly afterwards, due the removal of the classroom (that is another story!) The lecturer on radio communications was an interesting person, (Robert Crawford), whom I met when I was in the army barracks. He was a BBC engineer in the army and his roll was to assist a well known BBC war reporter, named Ward. In those days, recording events for subsequent broadcasting, especially in front line conditions, needed a qualified engineer to make the records. Ward and Crawford were captured in North Africa at Tobruk in June 1942. Crawford taught me a lot about basic radio and was obviously quite involved in the construction of radios for the camp. There was always some route for getting supplies of essential parts. He told me they were worried that the camp might be overrun by the Russians, before Western Allied Forces could get here, and we might need to be able to communicate with our Allies to get urgent assistance. To prepare for such an event they had built a transmitter, and had already selected a site for it. They had also acquired a starter motor from a Messerschmitt 'plane to generate the power for it! (Fortunately, in the end, events did not require such action).
Theatre
It was generally accepted that the camp theatre was a remarkable achievement. It provided first class entertainment and raised morale for everyone in the camp. A spare barrack was found for the purpose. The brick
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floor was dug out and the bricks replaced in tiers for the seating, so that the stage could be seen by everyone. A dimmer switch was acquired for better control of stage lighting.
The theatre group was in operation before I arrived and was now in full swing. With food parcels arriving more regularly, and the longer and warmer days of spring and summer ahead, our daily lives became more bearable in the dim, dismal, damp and dilapidated surroundings of the camp. The Second Front was expected soon and with an early prospect to the end of the war, spirits were high. This reflected in the energies of the theatre group, both in variety shows and straight plays, and the appreciation of the audiences.
My first 'visit to the theatre', named the 'Empire', was only a few days after I arrived. The ticket was purchased with cigarettes, but I can't remember how many. It was a variety show entitled 'Muhlberg Melodies of 1944' a totally internally written production. The female impersonations were fantastic, impressing seasoned kriegies and especially me, a newcomber to camp life. The theatre 'props' were wizards at making costumes from old blankets etc., stage scenery and furniture from Red Cross boxes and plywood crates. Even the production of suits of armour was not beyond them. The 'tin bashers' got busy with Red Cross tins, and by clever lighting with green tinted bulbs, were able to produce very realistic results.
The variety group produced several shows, some with leading camp comics, like 'Music in the Cage', 'Lets Raes a Laugh', Knee-deep' and 'Splash'. Musical Comedies such as 'Springtime for Jennifer' with lyrics and music both written by the leader of the orchestra. The variety shows were alternated with straight plays presented by 'The Cads'. Each one seemed better than the previous production. Such shows were 'Dover Road', 'The Man Who Came to Dinner', 'You Can't Take It With You' and 'The Barretts of Wimpole Street'.
There were light classical orchestras and more serious music, also dance and swing band shows. The latter participated in shows in the barracks providing suitable music. At leading football matches, boxing bouts and on Sunday afternoons a military band provided entertainment.
On some Sundays in the Empire, the Experimental Theatre Group presented some unusual plays based on melodrama and plays requiring 'audience participation'. One I remember called 'Waiting for Lefty' (about rebellious cab drivers) was highly successful. In this play the audience, together with members of the cast (who, unknown to us, were 'planted' amongst the audience) got involved in a trade union strike. It resulted in the whole audience, quite spontaneously, standing up and shouting 'Strike, Strike!' and 'Lefty' the ring leader being shot dead!
Also on Sundays, church services were held in the theatre, and the Padre (a New Zealander) organised entertainment and talks on some Sunday afternoons.
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Another organised event that the theatre was used for was a remarkable exhibition of pendulum clocks. I presume pendulum clocks were chosen because they operated by weights and not springs. All these clocks were constructed from flattened Red Cross food tins, which were cut into the various gears and other parts necessary to produce and display the correct time.
Barrack (hut) entertainment
Hut shows were very popular and were introduced in the evening in the summer months when curfew was extended. Stage sets were erected from the hut seating and structures brought in for the purpose. Such industry gave a feeling of involvement and this added to the enjoyment of the show that followed. Radio plays were very novel, being performed behind a curtain and in broadcasting style with all the sound effects. With the rest of the hut in semi-darkness (not difficult in a poorly lit hut) the right atmosphere was achieved, for such plays as 'The Tale of Two Cities', 'Ghost Train' and 'Pygmalion'.
On other winter evenings a series of talks were given on such subjects as 'Big Game Hunting', 'North West Frontier' and 'Russia'. Chaps with personal experiences such as 'HM Prisons' by an ex Prison Warder, an interesting one for us Kreigies! And a talk by a former Undertaker on some of his more gruesome situations. We also had two demonstrations of hypnotism, one by a Dutch therapist who practised in an Indonesian hospital, and another who did it purely for entertainment and sent us into fits of laughter, when he got one of the audience who knew nothing about the subject, to give us a talk on 'how to paint and decorate a room'. But the most impressive demonstration of all was when two Fakirs from the Indian Army demonstrated the results of self hypnosis. They reduced their heart beats until when cut they did not bleed, then over their stomachs they pinched two thick folds of skin and pierced them with spikes. When they pulled the spikes out there was no trace of bleeding. Their second demonstration was even more amazing. They broke glass bottles on the floor and when there was enough broken glass, one laid on it, back down, and the other stood momentarily on his chest. You could hear the crunch of glass under his back! Again when he got up there was no trace of bleeding.
Another popular activity in the winter months was playing cards. This was mostly contract bridge, a game I learned to play. It became an obsession for some partners and was played almost uninterrupted all day and sometimes into the night, only stopping to eat! This was possible with the larger groups of 'muckers', as cooking etc and playing cards, was shared on a rota basis.
Sport
The most active and universal sport in the camp was soccer and this was carried on throughout the day, but mostly in the evening during the summer months. I understood that football equipment was brought from Italy by the
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Army POWs. Each hut had its own team named after the 1st. Division names in Britain. Our hut's team was Blackburn Rovers and the degree of interest was amazing. Our team had its own colours and was well supported by the hut inmates. When we played in the League matches discussion reached tremendous heights. I think the knock-out cup was the most exciting of all. Semi-finals and final games were played off on Saturday afternoons as it was the main feature of the weekend. Newport County was by far the leading light in this competition and eventually won the Cup. At Easter, Whitsun and August Bank Holiday there gala matches such as England versus Scotland, Army v RAF, Amateurs v Professionals. The standard of play was very high indeed, and teams selected from several thousand possible players gave a good account of themselves. Other feature matches were introduced when a number of 'Clubs' were formed for chaps living in the same area, such examples were 'London Club', 'Heather Club', 'Notts & Derby Club', 'Kent Club', 'Invicta Club' and 'Lincolnshire Poacher'. All the clubs had badges, made by Russians, out of aluminium dixies and the clubs advertised their activities on wall posters. The Germans panicked when they saw the 'Lincolnshire Poacher' and issued a general warning that anyone caught poaching could risk being shot!
Other sporting activities
There was a Rugby League and they played their important games on Sundays. Perhaps the most notable members were the 'Springboks' and the 'Anzacs', and many a time blood was drawn between these two hefty teams.
During the cricket season, each hut entered a team and the matches were played off on similar lines to soccer and rugby, the main feature being a test match played between England v Australia or South Africa, over the weekend. Some of these were very close ending matches, England on one occasion beating Australia by a few runs only.
Two athletic matches were held and prior to the events, every morning and evening contestants could be seen on the track training with great zeal. (The track was the perimeter of the football pitch, an area many kreigies used every day to walk round for general exercise). Boxing also was a camp-organised sport and several times exhibitions, as well as competitive bouts, were carried out in a well built ring in one of the compounds.
The Canadians were very keen on basketball and softball, whilst vollyball was played by one and all. Others took up weight lifting and organised P.T. Many of the games were between the British and other Nationals such as the French, Dutch, Russians and Poles; the latter two excelled at volley ball, the former had a tough struggle when playing us at soccer - after all it was our national game (in those days).
There was no lack of exercise at 1VB. The outdoor activity during the summer months, coupled with a good supply of Red Cross food parcels and encouraging news on the war front, kept us all in good spirits at that time. But of course all this was no compensation for the abysmal living conditions and
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the lack of freedom we all experienced, especially when you are only in your early twenties.
Trading
I have already mentioned that NCO's were not paid any service pay in prison camps. The Russian working parties were paid lagermarks, but these were relatively worthless. There was a Russian canteen where items could be purchased but there was relatively nothing to buy. But items could be exchanged or bought and sold with cigarettes. Thus cigarettes became the camp currency and its liquidity. There was a rate that depended upon the amount of spare Red Cross food that was available, compared with how plentiful were the Red Cross cigarettes and cigarettes received in private parcels. In the summer of 1944 spare food was more plentiful, thus the cigarette rate was low – in the winter the position was reversed. The Russian canteen became the flea market (in more ways than one) where anything could be bought and sold or exchanged. The Italians, who became prisoners with their complete kit of clothes and utensils, were seriously short of food and were able to sell clothing, knives, scissors etc. for basic food. They even took on tailoring jobs for food and cigarettes. The Russians were in the best positions to trade because they were able to contact the farm workers in the fields and farms, exchange cigarettes and coffee for bread and small items necessary for day to day living. They would conceal these in their trousers, not very hygienic for the bread! I understand that the Russians who worked on the 'honeycarts' were able to hide bread in the opening of the 'honeycard' barrel (when they were empty!), on their way back to camp.
An event that I witnessed one evening not long before curfew: a British chap had filled an empty cigarette packet with earth, except for ten cigarette stubs at the end, to represent a full packet. He then, in the half-light through the wire of the Russian compound, exchanged it for a long loaf of crusty bread. Back in the hut he was full of his success in duping the Russian, until he discovered the side of the loaf had been sliced off, the whole of the inside hollowed out and filled with damp rags to give the loaf weight, and the side cleverly replaced with thin spills of wood to hold it in place! I often wonder who had the better deal . . .
On some evenings, the same RAF (German Jewish) POW who organised the coal stealing from the French cookhouse, would bring into the hut a German guard complete with rifle, who was on patrol inside the camp. The guard would stand in the middle of the hut whilst the gasmask case on his back (now minus its gasmask) was opened. Inside he had toothbrushes, razors, razor blades, combs etc. to trade for cigarettes, coffee and chocolate. Not every German soldier was waging war to the death!
I also remember a Dutch POW, still resplendent in his uniform with tassels and gold braid. The Dutch, until the Second Front, were well served with IRC food and parcels from home. This chap obviously, like many Dutch very commercially minded, used to appear regularly in the huts carrying a large tray of goods which he was trading for cigarettes.
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Escaping
Planning to escape was a very clandestine business, and unless you were personally involved you didn't know much about it. However there was an escape committee who would assist those who wished to 'have a go'.
There was one mass escape planned in the camp by the RAF and from the RAF compound. It was a very close kept secret, only known to those involved. A hut used as a 'school' for various classes was chosen. This hut was without foundations and raised on blocks. Also it was only a short distance from the camp boundary barbed wire on the north side. The first move was to ask the Germans for permission for us to put a mound of earth around the perimeter of the hut "to prevent footballs etc. from being kicked underneath it." A hatch was then cut into the floor of one of the classrooms, from which a tunnel was dug to the outer wire. The earth dug out was packed tightly, into the now enclosed space, below the hut. As the distance from the hut to the field outside the wire was fairly short, the space was sufficient, and did not need a complicated system of distributing the earth elsewhere. Also concealment was less complicated as classes were still being carried out in other rooms as before. I for one, who attended classes there, did not know what was going on and neither did the Germans. Bed-boards were used to shore up the sides of the tunnel and the hut wiring was tapped for lighting it. The bed-boards would have been taken bit by bit from bunks in various barracks. As boards were already being consumed as firewood, or for blowers etc., it was almost accepted that this was the natural erosion of the place. Although, for those who slept in the middle and lower bunks, more and more loops of palliasse were hanging down between bed-boards from the upper bunk.
The tunnel was completed in late summer, and the day before the planned night breakout, a tractor towing a harvester, cropping the corn in this field, tipped into the tunnel exit which was just below the level of the field. Immediately all hell broke loose as Feldwebel 'Piccolo Pete' our new German compound watchdog, appeared on the scene. Piccolo Pete was a nasty, small, bow legged fellow, who took over after Blondie was posted elsewhere. He consistently made our lives a misery, making raids on our barracks without warning. He would appear with guards to block each end of the hut. We would then be searched and driven out immediately into the compound, while he and his posse of guards turned over the bunks and prodded the floor and everywhere with picks, looking for signs of tunnels, escape material, blowers, radios etc.
Well, Piccolo Pete was in his element. The following morning, he turned up with the Russians and their cavalcade of honey carts, and they emptied our latrines and forty-holer of sewage and poured it into the tunnel. Of course classes were closed at the hut and we never went near it again!
Another means of escape, usually through our own Escape Committee and sometimes with the help of the French Escape Committee, was achieved by exchanging identity with other prisoners who were on working parties. These
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were usually army privates who, under the Geneva Convention, could be employed by the Germans in non war related industries. These industries around 1VB would be mostly in farming. New British POWs were often 'processed' through 1VB, as it was also a registration camp and where new prisoners could be topped up with essential clothing. These prisoners would be approached by the Escape Committee and offered exchanges. They would have the benefit of not having to work and the NCO's would have the chance to escape, which would be less risky than trying to escape from 'behind the wire' at 1VB. Both parties would of course lose their own identities during this time.
All those in 1VB who took this on, were given new identity papers, forged passes, travel documents, maps and money etc. In my view they would have needed, as a minimum, a good knowledge of German and know how to live rough, as they would be hundreds of miles away from any territory where they could expect help from anyone. To my knowledge nearly all those in 1VB who escaped were recaptured, returned to the camp, and given 14 days or more solitary confinement in the 'cooler' on basic rations. One chap who gave us a talk on his experiences, on having reached a railway siding, found that none of the railway wagons had destinations for his chosen route. But with a bit of quick thinking, he decided it would help the British war effort if he collected all the destination cards from the wagons, gave them a thorough shuffle, and put them all back!
Geoff Taylor who wrote the book 'Piece of Cake' about prison life in 1VB, tells his story about attempting an escape by stealing a JU88 'plane from Lonnewitz nightfighter training airfield near 1VB. He and a colleague used the French and British escape committees to do an exchange with two French arbeit kommandos. They got on to the airfield and into a JU88, only to be caught red handed by a Luftwaffe guard. Luckily they were wearing French uniform and Geoff's colleague answered the challenge in French. The guard, thinking they were French farm workers from a nearby village, chastened them and told them to clear off, which they did at a rate of knots! After some time trying to find another aircraft that wasn't locked, and then running out of food, they walked back into the camp with hardly a challenge.
After the murder (on the orders of Hitler) of fifty RAF escapees from Stalag Luft3 in March 1944 became known, the Germans gave out an official warning to all camps. It said that because of increasing action of commando forces in Germany, many places were 'no go' areas and anyone entering them would be shot on sight. Escaping prisoners were at risk, and to remember "escaping was no longer a British sport".
About the same time, a message was received from the British Government via the BBC news, which said it was no longer the duty of prisoners of war to try to escape(!)
Our mail and news in Stalag1VB
Mail
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We were allowed to write one letter and two postcards a month, so I had to ration them between family and friends over the 15 months I was a prisoner. But I received 111 letters and about 6 or 7 parcels over the period. Everybody moaned in the hut every time my name and number (098 Wilson) was called out – 'what, not him again!'
Letters to UK and from Germany took 2 1/2 to 3 months each way, so a reply could take almost 6 months. The first letter I received after being shot down took 5 months, and the first letter from my parents took 6 months. Mail arrived fairly consistently after that, 43 by September 1944, 110 by January 1945 and then only one, before I was liberated in April 1945.
My first parcel took 7 months to reach me. It was from home and contained 500 cigarettes – a fortune either as cigarettes or currency. My second and third contained books – fiction, biographies, technical drawing and – travel! My fourth, from home, contained clothing. Two previous parcels had been sent but never received. I had two further parcels of cigarettes and, I believe, some chocolate.
I also received a parcel of books from the Red Cross in which they had sent two books I had asked for, one on meteorology and the other on astronomy. I remember that I found great interest in the astronomy book. Stalag 1VB being located away from the town in flat countryside, with no lights on late in the evening, presented an ideal situation for viewing the night sky, even through the few windows available. With my knowledge of the star constellations in the northern hemisphere, required for astro-navigational purposes, I was able to identify the only star city outside our own galaxy visible to the naked eye – the nebula in Andromeda near the constellation of Cassiopeia in the north-eastern sky. It gave me a great feeling of space and freedom away from my dismal surroundings.
In my first letter home from Stalag 1VB on 2 February 1944, I told my parents that our 'plane had caught fire and I had to bale out. (I did not say how or where, as this might have stopped the German censors from sending the letter on). I also told them John Bushell was with me. We knew that Laurie Underwood and George Griffiths had survived but there was no news of the others. I asked them to send me underclothes, socks, toothpaste, cigarettes, and photographs.
My letters started with mixed emotions – I was glad I had survived and without injury. Also at that time we were receiving weekly food parcels and the camp was providing entertainment with fairly frequent shows in the Empire theatre. But the winter weather was miserable with slush and mud everywhere, and with only lashed-up clogs to wear, there was no incentive to walk round the circuit of the 'football pitch'. Being incarcerated in these barracks during the long winter days was punishment indeed. Writing letters without receiving any in return, became a burden, and it was not until I received my first letter in June did I brighten up. By then the Second Front had commenced, the days were longer, sunny and warm, outside activities had started, and the parcels
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were still arriving weekly. As the D Day invasion succeeded, a wave of optimism swept the camp. 'Home by Christmas' was the cry. Of course we were young kriegies and did not realise that old kriegies had made this cry for the last three or four years already!
As the year advanced, France was liberated, Italy had capitulated, everybody was at their high point and our letters home reflected this mood. But the success of the war on the ground and in the air across Europe, was having its effect on the German transport system, and our RC food parcel deliveries started to become irregular. Setbacks, at Arnhem in Holland and the Battle of the Bulge in Belgium, ensured that the war would continue into the Spring of 1945 and would make worse our conditions in the prison camp.
In the autumn and winter of 1944 parcels were reduced to a half and some weeks there were none. Coal for heating and cooking was reduced and as more prisoners came into the camp it became excessively overcrowded. My letters did not mention this, and said our Christmas was fine with a RC parcel out of the blue, which enabled us to dodge up some kind of festivities with concocted mince pies (don't ask!) and Christmas pudding. Although we were able to organise 'a dance' for New Year's Day, we entered January 1945 with the worst conditions we had experienced so far in 1VB.
News
News about the progress of the war was the very life blood of every prisoner. As the war moved towards its end, events around us began to coincide with the news we received.
We were lucky in 1VB inasmuch as the Army chaps had managed to bring their radios (in pieces) from Italy, concealed down their trousers, between their legs etc.! The RAF had managed to bribe the guards for parts to assemble their radio. So both compounds had radios and were able to get BBC news everyday. Despite random searches by Picolo Pete and others, they were never discovered.
The news was taken down in shorthand and transcribed so that every barrack leader could read it out after evening curfew. The leader would call for lookouts to see the outside was clear of roving patrols and the hut would remain in complete silence whilst the bulletin was read out. Thus throughout our time in 1VB we were well informed about events, except on D Day when the Germans told us first! That day everyone went wild. Many were making crazy forecasts about the date when the war would end, and when it didn't, they were unceremoniously carried to the stagnant reservoir and thrown in.
About this time Italy capitulated, but Germany continued to fight in Italy. The Italian Army, overnight became POWs and several thousand of them arrived at the camp complete with all their kit. They were in a terrible state, as the Italians were despised by every nation. Italy had declared war on England when we were 'on our knees' after Dunkirk; thus they were also enemies of Russia and all occupied nations. Now they were enemies of Germany. And
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the British Army POWs in 1VB, not long ago treated abysmally as POWs of the Italians, didn't think much of them either. They were soon starving, with poor rations, trading their kit for food, begging alongside the Russian amputees for surplus skilly and scraps.
In addition to the news we got from the radio, the Germans supplied a weekly newspaper called 'The Camp'. I do not know how many they distributed but I managed to keep three copies. These did not really supplement the BBC news, as they were a week or so out of date and were really propaganda papers. Their war reports never mentioned Allied successes. They printed lots of bland articles taken from recent British newspapers and football league results. Their leader articles were loaded with propaganda. However the 30 July 1944 edition was interesting, as it covered the 20 July bomb plot to kill Hitler. It showed a picture of Hitler, apparently uninjured after the attempt on his life, talking to Mussolini. It announced [italics] "that the plot by a criminal clique of German Officers had completely collapsed. The ringleaders either committed suicide after the outrage or were shot by battalions of the army. Among those executed was the manipulator of the explosive, Col. Count von Stauffenberg” [/italics]. Incidently [sic] he is now remembered as a hero by the German nation and a street in Berlin is named after him: "Stauffenbergstrasse".
This edition of The Camp also featured the launching of the V1 (flying bomb) weapons on London. These were followed by the V2 rockets and continued from their launching sites in Holland, mostly on the London area and Antwerp (a major Port for the British and Canadian armies on the North European Front), almost until the end the war. These weapons were totally indiscriminate and some fell in Essex, many of them in the Ilford/Romford area where my parents lived. One V2 fell in the road next to Joydon Drive, wiping out half-a-dozen houses and their occupants. Luckily my parents and two sisters had evacuated to Brighton during this onslaught. But our house was damaged and had to be patched up until after the war, when it was repaired. All this was unknown to me as my parents would not have mentioned it, and in any case mail might have been lost or arrived too late for me to receive it.
There was heavy fighting in Normandy after D Day and the German press made the most of it. At Caen, the first major city, the British and the Canadians suffered very heavy casualties, and the Americans on the Cherbourg Peninsular were held up for a time capturing the Port of Cherbourg. It was about five weeks before Caen fell, and the city was almost demolished by Bomber Command. But the fighting drew in much of the German armour. At this time the American forces made great headway in the Cherbourg Peninsular, swept around Caen to Fallaise to form a pincer movement. The Germans realising they could be trapped, started to withdraw their tanks, through what became to be known as the 'Fallaise Gap'. The RAF with their rocket firing Typhoon fighter bombers had a heyday destroying both troops and tanks. Eventually the Germans discarded much of their equipment and went helter-skelter to cross the river Seine to avoid capture. At this time the landing of Allied troops in Southern France had taken place and the Germans had decided to evacuate their troops from France.
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The German 7th Army was smashed at Fallaise with a loss of 250,000 troops (killed or captured), although a similar number managed to get away. Soon after, an uprising took place in Paris and the city was liberated by the French Second Armoured Division on the 25 August 1944, almost without damage. By 3 & 4 Sept 1944 the Allies had entered Belgium and Holland, and most of France was clear. We had followed all this news on the BBC throughout this time, and the camp was in high spirits.
Now aerial activity was recommencing over Germany. (The bombing of Berlin, Leipzig and other cities during the winter months had been suspended so that Bomber Command could assist with the Second Front. They were now released from this activity and night bombing restarted). Airfields were opened up in France and fighter and fighter bomber squadrons, British and American, moved to them. American Mustangs were fitted with auxillary [sic] fuel tanks and were able to support the squadrons of their Flying Fortresses all the way to Berlin and further east. Now, in the height of summer, we were able to see these raids at 30-40,000 feet, as hundreds of glinting specks in the sunlight and streaks of contrails in the sky. From now on the Allied air forces controlled the sky. Both strategic and industrial German cities were bombed night and day and their roads and railways were under attack from dawn until dusk.
In August 1944 on the Eastern Front the Russians were advancing on Warsaw. The Polish patriots believing that the Russians would come to their aid started an uprising in Warsaw. The patriots were not of the same 'political faith' as Stalin, and the Russian forces were ordered to hold off. Not only did the Russians hold off, they refused to allow the RAF to refuel in Russian territory and thus prevented them from dropping supplies to the Poles. The uprising lasted into September. The German SS and the German Ukrainian army perpetrated terrible atrocities in Warsaw, murdering thousands of civilians including women and children. As they murdered them they burnt their areas of the city to the ground. Eventually the whole city was virtually destroyed.
Sometime in late October or November a long column of young Polish women and children from Warsaw reached our camp and were housed in the transit compound adjacent to the RAF compound. They were in a terrible condition. These young people, many boys of 7 or 8 and girls of 16 years of age upwards, caught up in the patriot uprising, were serving as nurses, runners etc. They had been 'taken prisoner' and brought here by cattle truck and by marching westwards. They had no food or spare clothing and were desperate for help. The transit compound was filthy, dilapidated, and with few latrines. It was almost unbelievable that the Germans could treat them as they did. Most of the nationalities in the camp spent endless time along the wire between the compounds, looking at these young women who despite their condition were cheerful and sang Polish songs, often through the night. Also of course most prisoners had not seen a female form for years, and to see so many had awakened long forgotten aspirations! A number of RAF were Polish, and there was a fair amount of communication with the women through the wire, almost to the level of romance. Although at the time we were getting short of food
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and had limited amount of clothing, food and clothing was given to them. After all this excitement, one morning at roll call the adjacent compound was empty, the Polish women had gone to – I know not where. It was not until January 1945 that the Russians occupied Warsaw in their advance towards Germany.
After reaching the borders of Holland, the Allies decided a rapid crossing of the river Rhine into Northern Germany would shorten the war by several months. It was planned to drop airborne troops to capture the Arnhem bridge across the Rhine in Holland, and hold it for a few days until armoured divisions from the south broke through. The 700 troops of the British 1st Airborne Division dropped in Arnhem, were not joined by those dropped at Oosterbeek, and were thus isolated at the northern end of the bridge. The armoured divisions from the south were not able to reach the bridge in time and the 1st. Airborne fought to a standstill at Arnhem, having run out of ammunition. They had many casualties and all those still alive were taken prisoner, together with those from Oosterbeek who were unable to get back across the Rhine. The 1st. Airborne were regarded as heroes by the British and Germans alike. After several weeks walking and travelling in cattle trucks, many arrived at Stalag 1VB in an exhausted condition, but nevertheless they marched into the camp almost as if they were on parade. After a short stay for registration etc., most were moved out, to working parties, elsewhere.
The failure at Arnhem was a blow to our optimism about the rapid end of the war and we settled back in our minds to the fact we would see Christmas through in 'Kreigyland'.
December arrived and although Bomber Command had resumed its bombing deep into Germany, taking advantage of the long winter nights, not much had happened on the Western Front since Arnhem. Then to everyone's surprise General von Rundstedt's forces launched a massive strike into the American lines in the Ardennes on 16 December 1944. The 106th American Infantry Division came directly from America and had not been exposed to any action before. The Ardennes was a heavily forested area now under snow and 106th was probably thinking more about Christmas than a possible blitzkrieg. The Germans took thousands of prisoners initially, made deep inroads into Belgium, and the Port of Antwerp was under threat. It took some time for the Americans to halt the advance, and they were not helped by the bad weather, as initially air strikes could not be carried out against the German armour. Eventually the battle, known as 'The Battle of the Bulge', was won at great cost to the Germans, who had run out of fuel. There were many prisoners on both sides. As a result, Stalag 1VB was inundated with new American POWs. They arrived on Christmas Eve, the most dispirited group you would ever wish to see, suffering from dysentery and frostbite. The were starving, dirty, shivering, exhausted men. We had to sleep 2 or 3 to a bunk to accommodate the huge intake, and during the night how we dealt with men who had dysentery, with only one inside latrine, I cannot (or wish to) remember. Luckily, as for food, there was an unexpected issue of RC parcels, which to some extent 'saved the day' – it was Christmas Day after all!
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Some interesting comments were made to me at this time by some American prisoners. One said "Only three weeks ago I was in California where I could eat as much chicken as I liked for a dollar". Another complained that on being taken prisoner a German frisked him and took 60 'D Bars' (60 bars of chocolate) from him! Several said that some prisoners were mown down by a machine gun after they had surrendered. (There was a German SS atrocity, when some 86 Americans were shot, at that time.)
The Americans were with us for about two weeks. Then they were moved out to various working parties and our overcrowding returned to normal proportions! BBC news about the Western Front remained quiet, but we all brightened up when we learned about the Russians' sensational advance from the Vistula to the Oder rivers. This was the only news that made life tolerable in January 1945, after extreme cold and damp in the barracks and very little food.
News of events inside Stalag1VB
News was formulated by budding journalists and artists. A weekly newspaper designed like a normal broadsheet, with headlines, pictures and standard columns, was produced in manuscript. The pictures, portraits and cartoons were all hand drawn or painted. The pages were displayed side by side and affixed to a board made from a Red Cross crate which was moved from barrack to barrack each day. The content would cover outdoor sports events, the Empire theatre, and any topic of interest, gossip etc. When the RAF came from Dulag Luft Transit Camp with a Red Cross issue of pyjamas, this hit the headlines: RAF ARRIVE WITH PYJAMAS – a great source of amusement for the army POWs. A cartoon was published showing a RAF chap coming down by parachute, after being shot down, complete with his own Red Cross food parcel!
The French, the other major national in 1VB
The British in 1943-45 were the greatest number of POWs in the camp, but the French were the prisoners who had been there the longest (1939-45) and were the most involved during this time. They had helped to build the camp in 1939 and were well established with the Germans (I suppose that as the Germans were occupying their country it was politic to do so).
They ran the hospital, one of the cookhouses, did all the clerical work involved in prisoners' records within the German administration, and maintained the POW cemetery at Neuburxdorf, near Muhlberg. Over the years they organised many religious parades. They had a good canteen, university, and theatre which produced plays and musicals. But their greatest skill seemed to be in producing exhibitions and models. I saw two exhibitions – 'Paris' and the other on 'Mountaineering'. Their models were the last word in craftmanship.
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They lived well on the whole, getting black market food more easily than us. Their connections were well established long before we arrived. They seemed to have an 'ownership' of 1VB
British casualties in 1VB
There were about 60 British deaths. Most of these would be due to illness (a result of unhygienic living conditions and an irregular supply of Red Cross food, our mainstay for reasonable health) but there were three who were shot by guards, one suicide, and one accident.
Details of those who were shot:-
One caught stealing coal at night.
One seen trying to pick wild strawberries beyond the trip wire.
One caught at night trying to return over the compound wire to his solitary confinement cell.
The suicide hanged himself in the washhouse.
The accident was caused by a pilot from the nearby night fighter training airfield at Lonnewitz. He 'shot up' the camp at low level and hit two prisoners who were taking exercise walking round the compound football pitch. One was killed and the other seriously injured. The pilot was subsequently court marshalled.
All of these man had military funerals and were buried in a separate part of the Neuburxdorf cemetery. After the war they were re-interred in the 1939-45 Berlin War Cemetery.
My time ends in Stalag1VB
At the end of January 1945 the Germans, having received confirmation of my commission from the Air Ministry, arranged for my transfer to Oflag V11B in Bavaria. I knew from the letters I had received from home that I had been commissioned as long ago as 1 December 1944 and was now a Flying Officer, having been promoted automatically after six months. I was surprised that the Germans would bother to arrange this transfer, as the war could not last much longer. I had believed the move would be to Stalag Luft 3 in Poland, but I hadn't known the Russian advance had already forced the Germans to evacuate the whole of Luft 3 and march westwards.
I was sorry that I would have to leave behind Johnny Bushell (my mucker!), as we had been good friends throughout my period at 1VB, but I knew he would join another group after I had left. We agreed that we would have a grand party for 'us survivors' after the war.
The inmates of Stalag1VB had a hard time after I had left, with few Red Cross parcels, German rations cut and little heating. The theatre had closed down,
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and no doubt the outside activities curtailed during the winter period. I believe it was because of these conditions that John contracted tuberculosis after the war. In the last few weeks at the camp there had been much aerial activity at low level from American Mustangs, who were shooting up everything, including POW wood collecting parties in the woods nearby. So much so that the Germans agreed to have 'POW' painted on some of the roofs of the barracks.
On 23 April 1945 Russian Cossacks on horses, brandishing pistols and cutlasses, galloped down the main road in the camp, their tanks ripping through the barbed wire. Liberation day had arrived! The German guards, their families and some Polish POWs (who were no friends of the Russians) had evacuated the camp in buses the day before. I believe the Russians caught up with them with the ultimate consequences of being overrun by an advancing army.
The Russians occupied the German barracks and administration area, from which the noise of drunken parties could be heard for days. I understand that everything was chaotic in the camp – water and power stopped, latrines remained un-emptied, and there was no food distribution. Everybody had to forage for food etc. from the farms around, where many of the terrified German civilians were either dead (killed or committed suicide) or still hiding in their cellars.
Eventually the Russians organised a column to evacuate the camp to Reisa, by crossing the river Elbe at Strehla, alongside a general trek of German refugees and liberated workers (now displaced persons), heading west.
In Reisa, the Russians tried to register all the British ex POWs. They refused, with a display of arms, to allow some American troops with trucks to evacuate the British across the river Mulde (which the advancing American Army had reached). The British were now, in effect, 'prisoners of the Russians' whilst the Russians tried to trade them for Russian POWs released by the Americans. As a result of the general chaos that developed, from the time the camp was liberated until now, many British (including Johnny Bushell and friends) had 'made a run for it,' stealing bicycles and carts etc., in a move to get across a collapsed railway bridge over the river Mulde. The Americans were waiting on the other side with trucks to take them to Leipzig. For many British who remained with the Russians, repatriation took several weeks.
Departure for OflagV11B, Eichstatt, Bavaria
On 2 February 1945, exactly one year since I had arrived, I said goodbye to 1VB with its 'not so pearly gates' and sinister blackish watchtower.
In a party of five RAF and RAAF chaps and three guards, we set out for OflagV11B, Eichstatt, Bavaria. It was a harrowing time to be travelling on the German railways. The Russians, in their rapid advance eastwards, had brough about many German refugees travelling to the west, and the railways
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were heavily congested with them. To make matters worse the Allied air forces were bombing and strafing the roads and railways around the clock.
I had thought travelling like a civilian, and not in the usual 'cattle trucks', would make it a reasonable journey, especially having spent a year incarcerated in 1VB, but I was wrong. The first train we caught from the nearby junction was very late and literally crawled all the way to Chemnitz, where we waited seven hours for our next connection. We were waiting for a train to Nurnberg on a platform crowded with refugees, all with bundles of clothing and packs. Also there were many hospital cases of wounded soldiers about, looking generally very will and in poor health, pale and thin specimens, all of them. Chemnitz was regarded as a hospital centre and had not been bombed. Up until now the junction was still intact, the station was still selling refreshments (just a watery beer), but had no bookstalls or buffet. The refugees had already waited hours for a train and now there was another delay of 70 minutes. They took it without a murmur and just moved back from the platform edge yet another time. I suppose they had given up! On the other hand, on the opposite track, military trains loaded with panzer troops were passing through, no doubt destined for the Eastern Front. I wondered where they would be in a few days time! . . .
We left Chemnitz, just 10 days or so before the town was heavily bombed, alongside Dresden, for the first time. I and my four companions had certainly witnessed the current use of Chemnitz as a busy rail junction for German armour.
I learned later, that at the Yalta Conference on 4 February 1945, the Allies (Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin) had agreed to assist the Russian advance by bombing important rail heads, through which the German armour would pass to the Eastern Front. These rail heads were Leipzig, Chemnitz and Dresden. Unfortunately Dresden suffered a high loss of life as a result of the heavy bombing, and the firestorm that developed due to the many medieval buildings in the town.
After leaving Chemnitz, we continued southward at a very slow pace, and eventually reached Plauen. We arrived at midnight and our next train left at 5am. This station had taken a packet of bombing and we had five hours of very draughty waiting. The civilians (refugees) were in the same position as ourselves, and they had no shelter or anything to warm them. It seems that a youth movement, girls and boys about ten years old and resident in the town, had been recruited to help these people in their plight, with their baggage or in any other way, throughout this time. It was clear that a sense of emergency was developing, as the Russians neared the German homeland, and they were employing every measure to help their war effort. But what drudgery, and to what avail!
Hof was our next port of call. We got there about 9.30am and as there was another long wait, our guards managed to get a hut with a stove in it, on which we were able to brew some coffee with our bread. This made all the difference and we felt alive again. It was about 5pm that day before we moved
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on. The train was packed and more and more people were on the move, all having waited many hours for connections. It was clear that the railways were in complete disarray. The continuous bombing had made its mark and we were lucky we had not experienced any so far. We had a quick change of trains at 7pm, but what a carriage we had! The train had been strafed, it had no windows at all, and we froze all the way to Nurnberg, which we did not reach until twelve midnight. Here the maelstrom of refugees continued and the station was almost in darkness. We were led virtually by the nose to an air-raid shelter. It was an excellent shelter with air conditioning, and plenty of warmth. Whether there was an air-raid or not I do not know but it was a joy to thaw out. It was another six hours before we moved on again.
From this point I have not recorded the details of the rest of my journey, but OflagV11B was about 50 miles further south, and only a few miles north of the Danube.
OflagV11B, Eichstatt, Bavaria
We arrived at OflagV11B on the forth [sic] or fifth of February 1945. The camp was situated in a small valley running east-west. About a mile away to the south was a road running parallel to the camp. Beyond the road were hills forested with pines and other trees. On the north side was another road, running alongside the camp. Rising from this road was a craggy area, with pine trees scattered along its ridge. It was a very pretty location. What a contrast to Stalag 1VB, with its look of 'Siberia' on my arrival there, a year before.
The camp housed about 1500 officer POWs, all army, from the British Commonwealth (plus now five RAF and RAAF), not like Stalag V1B which had over 20,000 POWs from many nations. The camp was divided into two sections called Upper and Lower camps, separated by a football pitch and an ice hockey ground laid out by the prisoners themselves. The Upper camp was a pre-war built set of barracks with good sanitation and stoves in each room. The Lower camp comprised of five wooden huts with separate room areas and brick stoves, but the sanitation was not as good as the Upper section. Nevertheless the whole camp was like a four-star hotel compared with 1VB. Tom Nelson (also a RAF navigator) and I were in the Lower camp, but when ever possible we used the normal private flush toilets of the Upper camp. I can remember that I used to make special journeys to the toilets in the Upper camp to enjoy the delights of being in a situation which was just like home!
We were in a hut with a portion divided off as a room. We had two sets of double bunks, a tall cupboard on its side which served as a sideboard, with the top as a work surface and storage underneath. There were two easy chairs and a table made from Red Cross crates and we used the services of a communal stove for cooking. The stove was a kreigie modification set into the chimney of the main stove, made up of RC tins and a German pickle tin as a firebox. It enabled us to brew up tea etc., heat up food and keep it warm. The fuel was mostly pine cones (from the wood collecting parties) kept alight by a forced draught, generated by waving a table tennis bat into the opening of the 'firebox'. I have often wondered whether it could have been patented!
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Tom and I were allocated a room with two Australians (Jack Bedells and Nigel Teague) as a mess of four. Jack seemed to be in charge of the German and Red Cross food rations. He also organised a weekly menu and cooked the meals most of the time. In army parlance he was President of the Mess Committee or PMC – gone were the Stalag days of 'muckers'. I cannot recall making any meals but I did a lot of washing up. Although Jack did most of the meals, he was a bit of a hoarder. When from time to time Jack was out on wood collecting parties, Nigel (Paddy) would take over and have a bit of a bash. On one occasion he used up all our chocolate from RC parcels, which he melted down with some margarine, mixed it with a tin of biscuits and solid oatmeal (all crushed up), some Bengers Food and egg powder. When it had set it became a delicious fudge. A bit expensive but at this time it was Easter and the news on the war front was good, so we had a celebration. Another time Jack had tried his hand at making cakes but had used salt instead of sugar. As cakes they were a disaster, but used with a tin of stewed steak, became acceptable Yorkshire puddings!
Jack, and Paddy (a man of few words), obviously had elected to look after us and they were very friendly chaps, but we found that they were quiet and to some extent introspective. In fact most of the people here with like it, and I can only draw the conclusion that they had 'run out of steam'. All of them had been prisoners for four or five years, experienced the same number of Christmases 'go by' and were still behind the wire. Now that the war was almost over they were just waiting for it to 'really happen'. There were still some activities in the camp at this time and I can recall going to their theatre to listen to a recital of Gilbert and Sullivan music. Looking at some of their old programmes and magazines it had been a lively place at one time. They were in the privileged position of having all their 'literature' printed. I suppose that as they received some of their UK pay in lagermarks, they could pay for this work to be done outside the camp. (I cannot recall whether I was receiving any pay at this time, anyway it was too late to bother.)
A few incidents of note I can remember -
On the road to the south, nearly every day you could see in the distance, a troop of Germans marching up and down as if in training, and singing as they marched. We called them 'the singing Goons'. (Germans were often nicknamed Jerries, Krauts, or Goons). I believe they were the Volkssturm, the German 'Homeguard', the Hitler youth and old men recruited to defend the homeland, now it was being invaded on all war fronts. In January 1945 Hitler ordered that, to strengthen their resolve, the Volkssturm would be regrouped with regular army units. In the Russian battle for Berlin in April many of them were killed alongside the more seasoned troops.
Another event, in this late hour of the war, occurred when we had our palliasses removed as punishment for some misdemeaner the Allies had allegedly done to Germans. We had to sleep on bare boards for about a month, not kind to your hips, which at this time, didn't have much flesh on them.
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Then – On 12 April 1945 the Germans informed us that President Roosevelt had died, which was not really a surprise as he had been ill for a long time. (It was a pity that he did not live to see victory, which was less than a month away.) We all assembled as for roll call and had two minutes silence as a mark of respect.
On 9 March 1945 I received a blank book issued by the International Red Cross, named 'A Wartime Log'. It contained pages that could be used as a diary (a bit late in the day) or just to record anything; centre pages for sketching etc. and a rear section with cellophane envelopes to store small items. I spent some time catching up, by writing as much as I could remember of the last year's events, and drew pictures of my present camp and other pictures of interest. I affixed photographs I had received from home. Unfortunately I was unable to complete it, but it has supplied a substantial part of my 'POW DAYS' for which I am extremely grateful, as otherwise it would never have been written.
From February through to April we did not have many Red Cross parcels. One week we were lucky when a truck was diverted through to us, so it had been a sort of 'rags to riches' from one week to another. On 9 March we were told that the German rations were being cut by 20% and potatoes by 33. 1/3%. German rations were poor, but were even more necessary in the, then, current situation of declining Red Cross food supply. We were hoping more than ever, that the war would be over soon.
There was rapid progress in the success of the war for the Allies, from February onwards. The Allies fought through the Siegfried Line in Germany, to the Rhine and took Cologne on 6 March. Then the only surviving bridge over the Rhine at Remegan was captured. From 23 to 26 March, the American armies in the Ruhr area crossed the Rhine, and the British and Canadian airborne and ground troops in the North crossed the Rhine near Wesel, in the greatest operation since D Day. More than 60 bridgeheads were established. As a result massive advances were made. The British and Canadian forces crossed Northern Germany in seven days and reached the Baltic. The American armies had encircled the Ruhr and moved east to Central and Southern Germany.
The import of these advances was that we were soon to learn, as our Commandant informed us on 13 April, that the camp was to be evacuated next day to StalagV11A, Moosburg, some 60 miles or so south across the river Danube. We would march there, with a truck to take any of us who were unable to walk the whole distance. Considering the rate of the American advance under General Patton, it beggars belief that it would be worth the effort to move us at all. (I understand that it had been a standing order from Hitler that no prisoner should fall into 'enemy' hands – but they were now losing the war!)
The 13 April was a hectic day for everybody, packing as much food as possible – luckily there had been an RC parcel delivery that week – and
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essential clothing etc. into kitbags and homemade rucksacks. Some had procured old prams and others had attached some sort of wheels to Canadian Red Cross crates. A number of us had got hold of poles, so that two kitbags could be suspended between the shoulders of two people.
It was a 'motley army' that assembled on the road just outside the camp the following day. At about 9.30 am some 1500 kreigies, in a very long column interspersed with German guards, were ready to move off. Then low over the horizon from the east there swept in a flight of fighter aircraft. The army chap next to me said, "What are they?" and I replied, "They look like ME109s". How wrong can you be! In seconds the 'planes had shot up and straddled with light bombs, a German truck on the road to the south of us. They were a flight of American Mustang fighter bombers! Now it was our turn, the Mustangs wheeled around, and flying in again from the east, started to strafe our column. Pandemonium broke out as the column scattered off the road. Luckily I was in the middle of the column and managed to move off the road in time, before the cannon shells started to spurt along it. The front of the column wasn't so lucky. Then either the aircraft wheeled around again, or another flight appeared in the same run. By this time I was trying to run up the hill to a craggy outcrop for shelter. The Mustangs were barely at 50 feet and firing their cannon. My legs just folded up under me in fright and I didn't make it to the shelter of the rock. I have never felt so vulnerable before or since. The Mustangs on this run were, I believe, firing at a machine gun post on the top of the ridge. They were apparently out of ammunition then, as after this they were gone.
The results of this strafing were tragic: there were some 50 casualties, including seven killed and another three who died within 12 hours. The leader of the camp dance band and a first class pianist, lost an arm, and another chap had to have a leg amputated. Even more tragic when one considers that these chaps had been prisoners for four or five years and were within two weeks of being liberated. We all oved back into the camp and the letters 'POW' were marked out on the football field. It was decided by the Commandant, who had two guards killed and several wounded, that the evacuation would recommence the next evening. We would march by night and lie up under cover during the day. Nobody disagreed with that.
Some days after we left the camp the American army arrived and repatriated the wounded. The event was serious enough for a Question to be asked in the House of Commons as to why a motley column of POWs, in khaki just outside the wire of their camp with its watchtowers and searchlights, could be mistaken for a disciplined column of the German army. The reply was that the American air force thought they were a troop of Hungarians, whose uniforms were also coloured khaki! This was an example of the suffering from 'Friendly Fire' that took place in WW2.
From OflagV11B to StalagV11A
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The march took about six or seven days and unfortunately I did not record details of it. There were no serious incidents during the march and, taking place during the night, not much could be seen. It was more of a trudge along, than a march. As they were not main roads it was quiet, no German troops or armour moving north and no hoards of refugees moving south. There were no towns and only a few villages that we passed through. I don't recall crossing the Danube, but this would have been a natural defence for the Germans, as the Americans advanced south. I understand that pockets of SS troops were active in the forests around Eichstatt, but we did not see or hear any as we moved south.
In my Wartime Log, I did make a sketch of an open barn and farmyard which typified the sort place we stayed in, after each night's march. These farms would have been spread around a village and we were allowed to wander anywhere on parole status. This meant that we would not try to escape. Not that there was any point in escaping at this stage of the war, with the risk of being caught up in a local SS fire fight and the war almost over. Some of the chaps did wander around the farms and houses, trading with locals their cigarettes, for bread and eggs etc. On one occasion I went into a local church and I found a memorial card for a German soldier who was killed in 1941, 'gefallan fur Deuchland', which I kept as a reminder that, in a war, every nation's youth was sacrificed for some so-called national cause.
One event I do remember clearly, in the fading daylight as we moved off one evening. It was two old men just completing a new ornamental wooden fence around their front garden. Each pale had a cloverleaf hole, carefully cut in it at the top with a bow saw. They were so immersed in their work, they didn't notice us as we passed by. Even though much of Germany was in turmoil, the war could have been a thousand miles away, or never even happened, as far as they were concerned. They were just getting on with the remainder of their lives!
On 22 April we reached StalagV11A and it was nearly the end of the war.
StalagV11A, Moosburg, Bavaria
Stalag V11A was started in September 1939 for 10,000 POWs and grew to enormous size over the war years. After the collapse of France, the evacuation at Dunkirk, and the invasion of Russia in 1940, prisoners from 72 nations had passed through the camp. Towards the end of the war there were about 80,000 POWs, 2000 guards and administrative staff, with another 80,000 prisoners with 8000 guards on outside working parties. No doubt these numbers were swollen by the intake of prisoners from other camps likely to be overrun like ourselves. In the final stages the Commandant requisitioned tents for 30,000 prisoners, but we were housed in huts when we arrived.
The huts were like those in Stalag1VB, but probably more dilapidated if that were possible and the whole place was flea ridden. This would have been a shock for our colleagues from OflagV11B having had tolerable living quarters for some years. However we only had a week to suffer until our liberation.
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On the morning of 29 April we were assembled for roll call. However there were no guards to count us and no guards in the watchtowers. Then we heard the rumble of trucks and tanks getting steadily nearer the camp and pass by, a short distance away, but we could not see them. There were a few light explosions and some small arms fire as the column approached the town. This stopped, and in the distance we could see the American flag, the Stars and Stripes, go up over the Town Hall – our war was over! What a 'Holywood ending' for us to experience.
Shortly afterwards an American jeep from General Patton's 3rd. Army entered the camp with a soldier standing, holding aloft the Commandant's revolver which had just been surrendered to him. You couldn't see the rest of the jeep for people trying to climb on to it. The camp was now in a state of euphoria.
I have learned since that Colonel Burger, the German officer responsible for the defence of Moosburg, wanted to hand over the camp to the advancing Americans and for the Americans to by-pass the town. By this means Colonel Burger would ensure the safety of the camp and the town. However Colonel Burger had received orders to deport all the 15000 POW officers in the camp, and to send as many of his own men as he could afford to defend Moosburg. The local command of Moosburg was then taken over on 28 April by an officer of the SS, who was tricked into believing that Burger was going to carry out the deportation orders. When the SS officer left, Burger informed the more senior POW officers, in the presence of the Commandant, of his decision to hand over the camp en bloc to the approaching Americans. On the night of 28 April, under a flag of truce, a delegation including a Swiss delegate, two POW colonels and the SS officer, contacted the Americans to persuade them to go round Moosburg. The Americans held on to the SS officer (as Burger knew they would), declined to go round Moosburg, but accepted the plan to take over the camp from noon 29 April. The plan was carried out with only token resistance in Moosburg (as I actually witnessed) and there were no casualties in the American take-over of the camp.
(I have often thought since, that the reason the German SS wished to hold on to as many officer prisoners as possible, was to use them as hostages to trade for their own lives when the end came!)
Now we had been liberated, all we wanted was to catch a 'plane and fly home. But this was a prodigious task and some organisation obviously necessary before this could happen. The first thing I can remember, was that a number of American ladies assisting the Red Cross appeared, all highly made up as if they were going to a party. They were distributing doughnuts and white bread, which after eating the German bread for 15 months tasted like cake. It was a nice gesture, but I think we would have appreciated more, a field kitchen with some thick soup and American army rations!
The Americans were concerned that in such a large camp with so many nationalities, discipline would weaken, and the inmates would breakout and ravage the town. So we, the British officers, were required to patrol on the
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outside of the wire, in pairs, in the hope that we could maintain order. We had no weapons and luckily no breakouts materialised. I was very relieved when they withdrew this operation, as we could not have prevented any trouble, and instead we could have landed up as being post war casualties.
Plans to fly us out were fairly rapid and I was scheduled to fly to Brussels on 3 May, but this was cancelled. On 6 May I wrote an American air letter home, a rather sad letter, as now I was disappointed about the delay, and conditions in the camp were terrible. Glad to say this letter didn't arrive home until I had been home several weeks!
Eventually a number of us were moved on 8 May to a grass airfield (adjacent to Moosburg town), where some 40 American Dakota transport aircraft were due to arrive to fly us to Brussels. None arrived and we spent all day in glorious sunshine on the airfield, which meant we would all arrive home sunburnt as if we had been on holiday!
The 8 May was VE Day, the day all Germany surrendered to the Allied forces. Since we were released on 29 April, in the space of nine days, German forces had surrendered in Italy. Hitler had committed suicide, the Russians had conquered Berlin, the Americans and Russians had met, officially, on the river Elbe at Torgau (which was near Stalag 1VB), and the Germans in, Holland, Denmark and North Germany had capitulated to the British Army.
At the end of the day on Moosburg airfield, American soldiers took us over to some houses on the edge of the airfield (which they had requisitioned at short notice), so we could 'bed down' for the night. I felt sorry for the owners of the properties, as they had been moved out at short notice and had to leave everything as it was. I for my part just slept on the floor, and at any rate there were too many of us to use the beds. The next morning, early, we had to return to the airfield, but I'm sorry to say not before some of our party had rifled the drawers and cupboards for souvenirs. I felt disgusted by this despoilment of someone's home, by apparently otherwise disciplined men who were now shortly to be reunited with their own families and homes.
On our way home
We had to wait a short time on the airfield for the Dakotas to arrive, so I had my last meal (breakfast) of Red Cross food which I had saved for such an occasion. It was from an American parcel, a box of cornflakes and milk powder, which I managed to mix with water and eat in a comparatively civilised manner.
Not long afterwards I was in the air on my way to Brussels and what a feeling of elation I had! I don't recall much of the flight, but I remember noticing some of the German autobahns with their bridges destroyed. When we arrived in Brussels, the town was in its second VE Day celebrations (9 May), but all I wanted was to clean up and get a change of clothing. We were taken to a Reception Centre where we registered and had a shower. A bit like arriving at Stalag1VB, except we were all issued with new uniforms (and not our existing
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ones deloused with gas!). After that we had a meal, with a band playing light music. One of the pieces played was appropriately 'J'attendrai', and then we were allowed to go into the town. As we were returning to England the next day and recent events were quite exhausting for me, I decided to sleep in a proper bed for the first time for 15 months, and save my celebrations for home.
The next day we left in small parties, only room for a few passengers in each RAF Lancaster, and flew to RAF Odiham in Surrey. We arrived to a heroes' welcome, with Squadron Leaders and Wing Commanders shaking our hands and offering to carry our kit to a hangar. This had been transformed into a large café set out with tables and chairs, with the Station WAAFs kept busy serving us tea and cakes, whilst an RAF band played light music to complete the welcome.
After our refreshment we were each given a ten shilling note (equal to about £40 in year 2004) for our journey to RAF Cosford, Shropshire. A party of us climbed into the back of an RAF open truck, which was to take us along the A30 to Paddington station in London. After some distance in open country we spied a large pub on the right hand side of the road. We thumped on the side of the driver's cab for him to stop, and directed him to the pub for a drink, the first since we were shot down. But when we got to the entrance, there was this devastating notice 'NO BEER'. Of course we had arrived home after two days of victory celebrations and the locals had drunk the place dry! Not to be outdone we charged into the pub and after explaining to the publican our plight, he pulled up some pints of ullage. It was floating with hops, but we didn't car, it was fine.
We followed this bout of 'drinking' with the invasion of a roadside café opposite the pub. We burst in waving our ten shilling notes, asking for cups of tea. When they realised who we were, just back from Germany, we had a bit of a party! Naturally we didn't break into our ten shilling notes, and it was great to be with the British people, back in our homeland again.
On arrival in London we stopped at the Endsleigh Hotel in Paddington for a meal. I took this opportunity to telephone my father from a public call box, using a free phone number. His first words to me were "Are you alright?" My father had a colleague at work, whose son was an army officer in OflagV11B (my camp). He had been wounded in the shoot up by the American Mustangs, left behind in the camp, liberated and repatriated by the Americans to a British hospital a few days later. And of course this event of 'friendly fire' had been followed by a row about it in the House of Commons. I assured my father that I was ok and I should be home in a few days.
We caught a train from Paddington to Cosford shortly after our meal at the hotel. At Cosford we were debriefed by Intelligence Officers for possible atrocities we may have experienced or witnessed in Germany. Of course some weeks before, the Allied forces had over-run the German extermination camps for Jews (the Holocaust). These had been filmed and shown in cinemas across Britain. The whole population had been reviled at what they
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saw. We had not suffered such revolting treatment. Germany had followed the Geneva Convention to what I would describe as a minimum extent. In Stalag1VB, there was excessive overcrowding and lice-ridden living conditions, with no proper sewerage or waste water systems. The food was not sufficient and of low quality. Without the International Red Cross supplying food and monitoring camps, life in prison camps would have been much worse and many more would have died of illness and malnutrition.
Following our debriefing we all had chest X-rays and full aircrew medicals. I was not able to blow up and hold – I think for one minute – a column of mercury, a critical test for aircrew. We were re-issued with battle dress and basic clothing etc. (I did not have an officer's kit, my commission having been promulgated whilst I was a POW, and would have to get it from a military tailor whilst on leave.) After this we were issued with railway warrants and leave passes and free to go home! Not wanting to wait for transport to the railway station a number of us hailed a passing lorry. It was an empty coal lorry. No matter, we couldn't wait, so we climbed aboard, kit bags and all.
I arrived back at Paddington in the late evening, too late to get a train home. Paddington was not far from Park Lane, and living in a deluxe flat in Fountain House in Park Lane was Mr. Heron (the Boys Brigade captain of a company I belonged to before the war). He, his wife and daughter, were good friends of mine and between them had sent me 26 letters whilst I was in Stalag1VB. He was the Chief Engineer of the Dorchester Hotel in Park Lane and was living here because his house in Goodmayes (less than half a mile from where I lived) was completely destroyed by a bomb in 1940. Mr and Mrs Heron were surprised indeed when I knocked on their door that evening. We talked almost the night through. They were the first personal friends I had spoken to for a long time.
The following morning I was on the last leg home. We had no phone at home, and no neighbour who had a phone – not many people had the luxury of a phone in those days – so I could not tell my mother I would be home soon.
I caught a train to Ilford station and from there a taxi home. It was near lunch time, my sisters and father were at work. My mother must have had a premonition it was me knocking on the door, as she was crying buckets of tears of joy and was still holding the cabbage she was preparing, when she opened the door.
October 2008
Dublin Core
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Title
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My Prisoner of War Days
Description
An account of the resource
Reg's account starting when he was shot down on an operation to Berlin. After Berlin he was transferred to Frankfurt for interrogation then by train to his camp. Camp life involved food, the preparation and acquisition of extra food by theft, trading or Red Cross parcels. The theatre was very popular as was sport. Trading was a large part of camp life, using cigarettes as currency. Plans to escape and tunneling were active at all times. Mail was very important, as were parcels from home. Once the Germans found out Reg was now an officer he was transferred to an officer's camp in Bavaria where conditions were better. Finally he relates the arrival of the Americans at the camp and his repatriation to his home.
Creator
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Reg Wilson
Date
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2008-10
Spatial Coverage
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Germany--Berlin
Great Britain
England--London
Russia (Federation)--Leningradskai︠a︡ oblastʹ
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Oberursel
Europe--Elbe River
Germany--Leipzig
France--Dunkerque
England--London
England--Romford
England--Brighton
France--Normandy
France--Caen
France--Cherbourg
France--Falaise
France--Paris
Poland--Warsaw
Netherlands--Arnhem
France--Ardennes
Poland--Vistula River
Europe--Oder River
Germany--Riesa
Germany--Mulde River Region
Germany--Eichstätt
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Plauen
Danube River
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Remagen
Germany--Rhineland
France--Dunkerque
Belgium--Brussels
Germany--Torgau
Poland
France
Germany
Belgium
Netherlands
Russia (Federation)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Essex
England--Sussex
Germany--Hof (Hof)
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Format
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39 printed sheets
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MWilsonRC1389401-170113-100001
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Sue Smith
102 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-17
bale out
bomb aimer
bombing
C-47
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crash
Dulag Luft
entertainment
escaping
evading
H2S
Hitler, Adolf (1889-1945)
Ju 88
Lancaster
Me 109
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
P-51
prisoner of war
RAF Cosford
RAF Odiham
Red Cross
Roosevelt, Franklin Delano (1882-1945)
sport
Stalag Luft 3
strafing
the long march
Typhoon
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1418/25208/PMackayWJ1501.2.jpg
bac5d489d01fcbabd6b139b45b8ea409
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1418/25208/AMackayWJ150527.2.mp3
fade94a1fbdc51da1006bfe0f8d75e48
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Mackay, Jeff
William Jeffrey Mackay
W J Mackay
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2015-05-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mackay, WJ
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Jeff Mackay (b. 1922). He flew operations as a navigator with 460 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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My, my name is Jeff Mackay. William Jeffery actually and I was born in 1922 in Ballarat, Victoria in Australia. My parents were Australian although my father was of Scottish ancestry and my mother English ancestry and we, born in Ballarat but I really grew up in suburban Melbourne, a suburb known as Caulfield where I went through the normal education process. I went to the local state school and later to Melbourne High School and at the age of sixteen I started working as a cadet engineer in a local suburban council as a, as a cadet engineer. By the, the war broke out in 1939 after I’d been working about six months and the, after a few months I joined the Army and found myself driving trucks in Southern Victoria until the Japanese entered the war in nineteen, on December the 7th 1941 when the situation in Australia changed and people who were, went in to the Army and Navy et cetera voluntarily it became more of a compulsory effort because of the threat of the Japanese. So, after a short break I joined the RAAF and found myself being trained for aircrew although at the time a cousin, a New Zealand cousin of mine who was in Britain wrote to my mother and said, ‘I’ve heard that Jeff has joined the Air Force. Tell him on no account to get in to Bomber Command if he can help it.’ But of course, once I was in the Air Force I I had no option. I had to go where I was sent. The, so we trained at the, in Sydney and at the end of our training they split the number of trainees in to, some were being sent to fly in northern Australia and the other fifty percent were sent to Canada to train to fly in Europe. So as, as it happened I was in the section to go to Europe and before long I found myself in a boat called the, I’ve forgotten temporarily the name of the boat but it was loaded with German Afrika Korps troops in the holds who’d been captured at El Alemein and were taken to prison camps in America to be incarcerated for the rest of the war. We had been sailing out of New Zealand away across the Pacific. It wasn’t long before the German Africa Korps members who were being led, led up on deck morning and afternoon for a period for air began jumping overboard and this was a cause of concern. I suppose in total there were probably about a dozen of these troops who didn’t, who were reluctant to go to America. Probably because of their Nazi training. But the German commandant approached the captain of the ship and asked if anything could be done to stop this. So it was the advice to, the idea was that they’d have a concert in the holds of the ship and the call went out to the Australian recruits who were being taken to Canada to be trained. The call went out did anyone have musical instruments they could lend to the Germans to put on this concert? As it happened, I had been learning the steel guitar shortly before I left, I joined the Air Force and I was taking along this steel guitar with me so I I said yes. Well, they could borrow my steel guitar and there were several other members amongst the Aussies who had different musical instruments. They offered to make these available. So in due course the Germans arranged the concert and they invited any, anyone who had lent them a musical instrument to come along as guests. Well, this was early in 1943 at a time when the German, the German enemy was regarded as such and the five or six other blokes who came with me to the concert which was in the bowels of the ship we went down and the Germans had arranged a raised stand for us to stand on at the back of the, the back of all the troops. There must have been in all about three or four thousand who were closely guarded. But the, the concert went on. One song I remember was Lily, “Lily Marlene”, which was played and sung by some of the German troops and it was remarkably good quality. It stuck in my mind for a while. But at any rate we, at that time as the German was the enemy a few of them were turning around and looking at us and funny looks, a few of them grinned at us because the, I suppose they were glad to have us. It was a change from just being locked up. But the concert passed without them bashing us up and we were glad to get back to our, our end of the ship. But it was an interesting little incident on the way over. Another, another incident that happened with the German prisoners while we were sailing across the Pacific was the British troops who had been guarding them since they were brought round from North Africa were getting a bit sick of their job and they thought that some of the Australian trainees should have a turn at guarding the troops. So, as it happened I was given the opportunity to guard, to stand in the mess room when they came through to eat in the morning and afternoon and I was stationed up at the one end of this vast old, vast dining hall where the, where they came. Now, they gave me a sten gun which I’d never handled before. And I was standing at one end and there were several other Aussies along the walls of the hall and the, while the, when the troops were coming up the stairs and pouring in to the room I thought gee I don’t want to shoot any of them, I’d better uncock this gun which I used to do with my P rifle on the farm. But when I tried to uncock it it had a much stronger spring than the little P rifle I used to have and so the gun started going off and I I sprayed the walls and ceiling before eventually it stopped. By this time there was panic in the dining hall and the Germans, some of them had been trying to get out. But I was grabbed by the, we had, actually it was a Dutch boat, the Niew Amsterdam was the name and I was grabbed and marched off and the sten gun taken off me. Taken back to explain why the gun, why I had done this and I was put in the brig for a day in punishment. But those are the incidents which stuck in my mind and the sort of thing that happened [coughs] pardon me. When we got to America and did our, did our training as navigators in the plains of Winnipeg. Around Winnipeg and Minnesota. That was another experience. And when that was completed we were put on the ship for a quick race across the Atlantic on a ship with a name, I can’t recall that either at the moment. But we were crammed in this boat and they relied on speed to get us across so that German submarines wouldn’t get us. So [coughs] pardon me. We, by the, by the time we reached Britain we were put in, Britain was in the middle of the war. Our first impression on getting to Britain was how pale everybody was with the lack of sunshine and that’s the remaining impression I had. But it wasn’t long before we were marshalled in the, separated in to the different groups depending on what we were, we were intended, what was intended for us and we went through the process of advanced flying. Learning to fly under British conditions from a, an aerodrome in North Wales at a place called Llandwrog. From there we were processed to a place in Staffordshire called Hixon where the different category, trained as navigators, gunners who’d trained as gunners et cetera et cetera. We were all brought together at this aerodrome in, at Hixon and formed in to bomber crews. The process consisted, I was approached by a rather dapper looking fella with a, not very big in stature but very self-confident in the air and he said, he came up to me and said, ‘Are you Mackay?’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well, we’re forming a bomber crew. I’ve got a gunner, I’ve got two gunners and a wireless operator. Would you be interested in joining the crew as a navigator?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ It was a time of quick decisions. I glanced at him and the others and said, ‘Yes. Yes. I’ll, that’ll do, I’ll join.’ So he took me over and introduced me to the other members of the crew. One, one was a, one gunner, the mid-upper gunner was a thirty year old ex-taxi driver from Sydney. A tough looking bloke who played in the front line of a rugby team in his spare time and, well actually he was the mid-upper gunner. The rear gunner was a nineteen year old boy from, Snowy Johnson from Perth. The wireless operator was a, another young fella, about twenty from Sydney, Logger Dowling. The bomb aimer was a Scotsman with another little black moustache from Glasgow. And there was me. That was the six. Six of us. The captain said, ‘Right. Well, we don’t know each other. To get to know each other we’ll go down to the pub tonight.’ So, before, the taxi driver looked at me and said, oh, you know, ‘Do you drink?’ and I said, ‘No. No. I don’t drink.’ ‘Do you smoke?’ I said, ‘No. I don’t actually smoke either.’ He said, ‘How do you feel about women?’ I said, oh I could see that I was really getting the right answers as far as he was concerned, so I said, ‘Oh, I like women.’ Which I did. So with that he sort of accepted that there was no further worry. He said something like, ‘Oh we don’t want any too good fellas in the crew. They say only the good die young so we need a bit of rough stuff.’ So that was the method of forming a crew and it turned out to be a really good crew. Very laid back, very casual but very loyal to each other in the air so a good crew spirit developed. Well, we went to the pub and I thought I’ll have a drink. There was no, there was never anything really against. So, it was only a little pub in Staffordshire called the Barley Mow and there was only, it was too small place to have many people but in the corner of the, one corner of the bar there was an elderly gentleman with a bowler hat. And there was no, the entertainment, you had to entertain yourself in those days and as I remember it the, the apart from chatting to each other and telling stories the bomb aimer, the Scotsman, the Scots bomb aimer said he could sing. So, we said, ‘Righto, Jock. Well, give us a song.’ And so, Jack, err Jock approached the elderly fellow with the bowler hat and said, ‘I’m going to borrow your bowler hat to give a song.’ And his name was Jasper. I remember it well, and Jasper lent Jock the bowler hat and Jock got up on the table and sang a song. I think was called, “The Wife,” which we all applauded. It wasn’t much of a song but it was a bit of fun and [cough] pardon me. The next night, the next time we went for another drink Jasper was there again with his bowler hat and Jock again borrowed Jasper’s bowler hat to give a song. And we went several more times and each time Jasper would lend a hat and Jock would give his song about the wife and, until the day we were getting near leaving. We told Jasper, ‘Well, we won’t be borrowing Jasper, your hat soon Jasper because we’re being posted to another, another training place and the next night will be our last.’ So on our last night Jasper arrived at the pub with his hat in a brown paper bag and said, ‘Look boys,’ he said, ‘I’ve enjoyed the, your company and the singing.’ He said, ‘Would you take the bowler hat as a keepsake?’ So, the reason I’m telling this story is that that became our sort of talisman that when we were on our bombing trips when we could see the lights of the target ahead the crew would say to the skipper, ‘Have you got the hat on, Tich?’ Who was the pilot’s nickname, and Tich would say, ‘Yes, the hat is now on.’ So we, we would say hello to the target with the skipper, with the bowler hat on his head and we all felt a bit safer. So, it was something and of course we hung on to the bowler hat and it came back to Australia with the skipper who has since died but actually the hat is now in the Australian War Museum in a glass case with a little insignia below explaining the significance of it. So that’s the story of the bowler hat. The, well the, I should say something about our bombing missions that I can think of. One [pause] one occasion which was a bit embarrassing for me was when we were bombing Hamburg on a daylight raid and I had to leave to go to the toilet which was a container at the back of the aircraft. And I I told the skipper over the intercom that I’d have to go back and had to unhook the oxygen supply. I was in a flying suit which had to be lowered down when I went to the toilet and had to reconnect my intercom and when I was there and I reported to the skipper that I was back where I was suddenly the aircraft dropped in a, in a dive which they call a curve of a pursuit which was a manoeuvre that bomb, Lancs had to go in to if they were attacked by enemy aircraft. They would go down in a fast spin off course and go down and then like that and weave and then come up again to get back on course to throw, to make it difficult for the attacking aircraft to hit the bomber. In this case I didn’t know what was happening apart from the fact I was, I was rising off the seat when he went in to the dive and of course when he climbed again I sat down on the seat and stuck to it because it was about minus forty on the metal seat. I remember thinking if I get out of this I’ll never be scared of anything again [laughs] But I got out of it. And later on there were a few smirks on the face of the rest of the crew so, they said that we’d been attacked by a German aircraft but of course, I was in the dark. I couldn’t tell what was happening and I was always a bit suspicious but that was one incident I remember happening. What else should I relate at this? I’m afraid I’m running out of —
PE: If I can just ask you, you really are doing well, Jeff. Thank you for that. If I could ask you a few questions. When did you arrive at Binbrook?
JM: It would be February 1945.
PE: Right.
JM: I remember years.
PE: How many missions did you fly?
JM: Eleven. We flew eleven before the war ended. The last one was at Nuremberg.
PE: Yeah. So, I was, I was going to ask you which, you know where did you fly? Where did you go? Where were your operations?
JM: The [pause] I’m not sure if I can remember them all. The first one was Nuremberg. Hamburg.
[pause]
PE: Don’t worry if you can’t remember.
JM: I’m struggling to remember at the moment.
PE: That’s alright. It’s alright.
JM: Hamburg [unclear] I’m sorry, it’s just —
PE: No. Don’t worry.
JM: It’s a bit hard to.
PE: When, when you were flying the missions were you ever frightened about what you were doing?
JM: Frightened? Not, no, not frightened although on, when we went on our first operation I remember going to the plane and saying, sort of going, ‘Oh, Nuremberg and back,’ to the rest of the crew. So I was a bit, a bit optimistic. But when the, we were approaching the target the bombs, the mid-upper gunner suddenly said, ‘Don’t look at that ahead.’ There were a couple of Lancasters, it was a night mission, blew up. Burst in to flames near us and I remember the mid-upper gunner, the tough taxi driver making the remark, and I remember I was entering my log and my hands started shaking a bit but I wasn’t scared but I just couldn’t control it for a few moments, control my hand. That’s one thing I remember distinctly. But I don’t think, I think we thought we had a feeling of resignation that if it happens it happens and the fact that we were all together gave, gave a certain amount of confidence. The fact we were together as a crew. I think we did. We tended to strengthen each other. Yeah.
PE: I mean obviously a lot of your other squadron members were lost during the, during these missions. How did you feel about that? Did that affect you at all?
JM: Sort of numb really I suppose would be the expression. We would, for instance in the, in the nav, when we were plotting our course in the nav room before we went on a mission there would be, you know the fellas on the other tables that were plotting their course then on the map and then the next night the fella that was next to you at the seat there would be someone else there. And you were [pause] you were sort of aware of that. But the other, the main feeling was we can’t do much about it. We can’t do anything about it. The mid-upper gunner, the fella, over thirty year old, after the first trip said, ‘I’m going LMF,’ which was lack of moral fibre and that involved being stripped in front of the squadron on parade. Stripped of your, your insignia and then, and then being put in jail and put in the thing for a few days. And he said, ‘Well, I’ve had enough of this,’ you know. ‘I’m not doing that again.’ He said, ‘I’ve got two children at home in Sydney and I’m just, whatever I’m going to go through I will.’ But something happened when he came out after the interview with the, the senior officer that interviewed him. He said, ‘I’ve changed my mind. I’ll keep going.’ And I think because we were only in our very early twenties you tended to think I don’t think it’ll happen to me. That’s as well as I can remember. I think we were a bit resigned and you couldn’t, you couldn’t face the humility of, with the other people saying, ‘Yes, I’m not doing it any more.’ I think it did happen to odd people but not much. And so I think it’s a fairly, resignation. Well, we’re here. We’re in it. Do the best we can.
PE: How did you feel when you were bombing cities and towns in Germany knowing full well that places like London were being bombed here?
JM: Yes. Well, to be, well generally we sort of you don’t like the thought of what was happening down there but the, while you were actually, while you were doing the job your main concern was doing your job. I had to get to the target. I had to get them there on time and that was the main concern while you were doing it. Naturally, the thought of women and children, you know, in another country that really hadn’t affected you directly you didn’t like the thought of what you were doing but you didn’t think really about it. You thought, oh well, I’ve got to survive. I’ve got to. The job has got to be done. One day, one morning, early one morning we were flying back from one of our raids. I think it was one when we went to Nordhausen which was another place. The dawn was coming and there were, were flying over part of rural Germany coming back and the, the mid-upper gunner said that, ‘Look, we’ve had one or two hangups,’ Bombs that hadn’t released, ‘There’s these places there. We’ll let them have it as we go past them because we could see that they would do it to us.’ But the rest of the crew said, ‘No. No. We won’t do that at all. They, they haven’t hurt us. We’ve, we’ve done what we’ve dropped the bombs on the towns.’ So there was a bit of [unclear]. One of, one of our group would have let them have it. So I think the feeling was in the crew was that there was no real hatred or anything like that. No. It was a case we had to do the job and if possible survive. That’s as I remember it.
PE: That’s good. Can you remember when you left Binbrook?
JM: When I left Binbrook?
PE: When you left Binbrook. When did you go back to Australia?
JM: Well, when the war in Germany ended they asked for volunteers to go on in what they called Tiger Force which was they were going to reform 460 Squadron and were going to go out to Okinawa and bomb Japan and they asked for volunteers. The rest of my crew said, ‘No. We’ve had enough. We’ll go back to Australia.’ And I, for some reason decided no. Well, I was prepared to go to another crew. So they formed us in to a second crew. We started training to go. Go out. But then the war ended in, early in August and the whole thing was finished so we never had to. But that was August 1945. It was a very nice summer and we were suddenly free of the, the threat of being killed and so it was a case of just relaxing and enjoying yourself. And by this time I’d met my wife, Olive a couple of months before and so we spent a bit of time together taking her to the pictures and that sort of thing. One incident, I took her to the pictures one, one afternoon and I said, ‘I’ll get you an ice cream.’ So, well at the interval I go to get her an ice cream and the lights went out. Well, I had the two ice creams but I didn’t know where Olive was so I had to eat the two of them. When the lights came on I was sitting a few seats a few in front of her which she, she thought I’d run out on her but, one thing I remember. But then as it was September I was working with other jobs to do flying. We were flying. We were given the opportunity to fly troops back from Italy which was rather touching. They were very emotional as some of them had been away from England for ten and eleven years. And, and also we dropped, there was the Dutch were starving so we dropped food in the Operation Manna, I think. We had a few trips dropping food to the Dutch. And then that was it. [coughs] Pardon me. Sorry about that.
PE: It’s alright.
JM: My parents, my parents were, by this time were writing saying, ‘When are you coming home? Johnny Hodson in the next street, he’s home. He’s home. Why?’ But I was having, I was enjoying England. At any rate the, the order came back. I had to go back to Australia so that’s what I did. Got on the boat with all the rest of them and came back to peaceful Australia. Landed, when we landed at the wharf there were people all waving to see us. To see you all back. Quite a quite nice seeing my mum and dad and the family were all there along with thousands of other people and it was quite a happy occasion.
PE: Did Olive go back with you at the time?
JM: I beg your pardon?
PE: Did Olive go back with you at the time?
JM: Oh, no. No. We, we wrote to each other for four years after I came back. And I I was doing a course to study civil engineering at Melbourne University and I kept thinking I’ll, I’ll go back to embarkation and propose to her. I kept writing but the bald story is my sister said, ‘What are you going to do about that girl in England?’ I said, ‘Well, I’m going back in embarkation to her.’ She oh she said, ‘Don’t be silly. You’ve waited too long. Write to her and ask if she’d like to come out and hurry. Hurry up and she can stay with me.’ It was rather intimate I suppose as a part of our life. But any rate I wrote to Olive and said will you can come out [unclear] about matrimony. She said yes. And, and that was it. That was in 1952 she arrived at, because there was a shortage of shipping space and at any rate we came out and everything’s has been pretty good since then. We’ve got three sons. They’re men now in their fifties. And we’re still getting along well together.
PE: Yeah. Yeah. So you’ve had your golden wedding.
JM: Yes. We’ve been married sixty two, sixty two years.
PE: Sixty two.
JM: Sixty two years.
PE: Right.
JM: Going on sixty three.
PE: So, what’s that? Is that, that’s diamond isn’t it?
Other: Diamond.
PE: Diamond wedding is it? Yeah.
JM: Olive’s a bit [unclear] deaf.
PE: Yeah. Congratulations.
JM: Could you hear what I said, hun?
OM: Yes. I heard you.
JM: Oh.
OM: Sixty three years.
JM: Yeah.
PE: So, is that diamond wedding is it? Sixty two.
OM: I think so. Yes.
PE: It’s in the sixties anyway. Yeah. Yeah. It’s the diamond wedding. Yeah.
JM: Yes.
PE: Well, thank you very much, Jeff.
JM: Yeah.
PE: That was really good. Have you got any questions you wanted to ask?
Other: No. I mean you’ve covered most of the questions I was after anyway.
PE: I think you got a story in there anyway.
JM: And can, can you scramble out the coughing?
PE: Yeah. Yeah. No, we’ll edit all that out.
JM: Yeah.
PE: Don’t worry about that.
JM: Yes. Yes.
PE: You did remarkably well. Can I just check one thing?
JM: Yes.
PE: You’re in your mid-nineties now.
JM: I’m ninety three.
PE: Ninety three.
JM: Yes.
PE: That’s what I thought. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you did very well to remember all that and you actually told a story which is quite unusual. One of the things that I like to do is find unusual stories in what anybody tells me. We know about your activities in 460 Squadron and the contribution that you made but the interesting thing was your voyage over to America with the German prisoners of war.
JM: Yes.
PE: Now, I’ve never heard that story before.
JM: No.
PE: And that’s very interesting in its own right. So, thank you for that.
JM: Yes. Yes. Well, that’s true. That’s, that’s how it happened.
PE: Good.
JM: Yeah.
PE: Well done. You did very well, Jeff. Thank you.
JM: Oh, thank you.
PE: Thank you. It’s been an honour to meet you. A privilege to talk to you. Thank you very much.
JM: I like to talk about myself [laughs]
PE: Most people do [laughs]
JM: Yes [laughs]
PE: Nothing wrong in that.
JM: Yes.
PE: Well, thanks a lot. That was brilliant.
JM: Yeah. Okay. My pleasure.
PE: That makes quite a good interview—
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jeff Mackay
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul Espin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:34:45 Audio Recording
Identifier
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AMackayWJ150527, PMackayWJ1501
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
Jeff Mackay was born in 1922 in Ballarat, Australia and was working as a cadet engineer. He joined the Army but when the Japanese entered the war in 1941 decided to join the RAAF, and after boarding a ship he trained as a navigator in Canada and then went to the UK to commence operational training. After flying training at RAF Llandwrog he was sent to RAF Hixon where he crewed up. It was at a local pub that he and his crew met a gentleman who wore a bowler hat and he befriended the crew and the singer of the crew would borrow his hat to sing songs. When they announced that they were being posted away he gave them the bowler hat, and his skipper would wear the hat on operations. He and his crew were posted to 460 Squadron at RAF Binbrook flying Lancasters and flew eleven operations, the last being on Nuremburg.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943
1945-02
1945-08
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
United States
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
Germany--Nuremberg
Wales--Gwynedd
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
460 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
entertainment
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
military ethos
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
prisoner of war
RAF Binbrook
RAF Hixon
RAF Llandwrog
superstition
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1077/11535/APlenderleithJ151007.2.mp3
cd3b1395d95d7734637103a4e5584cff
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Plenderleith, John
J Plenderleith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Plendereith (1822478R, Royal Air Force). He served as a wireless operator air gunner with 626 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Plenderleith, J
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PL: Ok. So, hello. My name is Pam Locker and I’d just like to thank you very much indeed for agreeing to talk to the Bomber Command Memorial Trust. And I’m in the home of Mr John Plenderleith and he’s going to tell us all about some of his experiences through his life. Not just in Bomber Command but through his life. So, John, if you’d like to just to kick off. Perhaps telling us how you, perhaps a little bit about your earlier life and how you came to be involved with Bomber Command.
JP: Thank you. Right. I went through the normal training of an air signaller from 1943 onwards. I did my ITW at Bridgnorth. And Radio School at RAF Madley, in Herefordshire. And OTU, Operational Training Unit in sorry AFU, Advanced Flying Training Unit at Mona in Anglesey. And Operational Training Unit at Husbands Bosworth in Warwickshire. Then I went on to Heavy Conversion Unit at North Luffenham on Lancasters and during that time of training we took part in a diversion raid for a target in Germany. After that I moved on to 626 Squadron at Wickenby in Lincolnshire on, and that was in April and May 1945. During that time I took part in four Operation Mannas which was delivering food to the starving Dutch people in Holland. In enemy occupied Holland. And also at the end of the war I took part in Operation Exodus which was ferrying, flying prisoners of war from Brussels to the UK when the war finished. And also later I took part, part in Operation Dodge which was bringing the 8th Army back from Italy to the United Kingdom. Can we have a break?
PL: Of course. We’re just stopping now.
[recording paused]
PL: Restarting the tape. Ok John.
JP: When the war finished in Europe the RAF asked for volunteers to continue the war in Japan. Well, we had only just started our, our bomber programme and we volunteered for Tiger Force. Now, this was to continue with the Lancasters in the war against Japan. It carried on for quite a while and eventually the, the atomic bomb was dropped and of course the war in Japan ended in August. So we never really reached Japan but eventually ended up in Egypt and replaced 104 Squadron with Liberators to Lancasters. And we joined 104 Squadron for a short time. I was there for only about six months practically and the crew became split up. And I volunteered to carry on flying which I did do and I ended up in Air Headquarters Greece and spent the best part of two years there during the Greek communist civil war. Which was interesting. After that I came back to the UK and various postings. The main one was Transport Command at Lyneham on Hastings. And I did a good few overseas trips there. Including Australia for the testing of the atomic bombs. And after that the main flying I did was at Farnborough where I flew on the experimental side for up to seven years. And that completed my flying in somewhere about six thousand hours. After that I became an air traffic controller. And I was approach and radar controller at Lyneham until I retired in 1968. After retiring I took the Civil Air Traffic Control Licence and became a controller for the Army Air Corps and I spent a further twenty five years with the Army Air Corps which made sixty years service with the military in all.
PL: That’s amazing.
JP: That was a rough account of my service. Service history.
PL: That’s wonderful. Thank you so much. A couple of things I wanted to return to.
JP: Hmmn?
PL: A couple of things I wanted to return to —
JP: Yeah.
PL: Going back to Operation Manna.
JP: Uh huh.
PL: Can you just expand on that and expand —
JP: Sorry?
PL: Could you expand on your experience of Operation Manna and how that all worked, and you know. And your personal experience of that?
JP: It’s a job remembering now. Well, as with regards to Operation Manna I did [pause] where are we? [pause] I did four trips on Operation Manna. The first one was to the Hague and the second one was to Valkenburg. And the next two were to Rotterdam. As you know this was for dropping food for the starving Dutch people. And we flew out ultra low level. Mainly five hundred feet and below. We flew out and, to the drop zones and we did observe. It was occupied Holland and we did observe military. German military. But there was a truce which was more or less kept over all but occasionally it was broken with small arms fire. And that was really about it. That was the, the four places we dropped on and of course the public were most appreciative of what was happening at the time, dropping the food to them. And they made a great, it became a very important part of the war. Operation Manna. And we returned there four or five times and looked after the Dutch people who were, who really appreciated what was done. And I think it was a good thing to take part in a mercy mission rather than a bombing mission. Much better. Any more?
PL: So when, when you got to the to the sites, the drop sites were the people there? Or what could you see from from the air? Were the people waiting to pick up the food or how did it work?
JP: No. The Germans kept the crowd back, you know, from the drop zone. Because it would have been dangerous, you know. Because we dropped the stuff without parachutes and it would have been rather dangerous if it, if it had fallen on the crowd.
PL: And then they would be allowed to to go forward and —
JP: Well, it was then all collected to a centre and distributed. Yeah.
PL: Right. Ok. Ok . That’s fascinating.
JP: Yeah.
PL: And after the war did you hear any more about that and the affect that it had had? I mean obviously it was of such —
JP: Hmmn?
PL: Did you ever, after the war hear any more about the effect of Operation Manna? Obviously it was —
JP: Oh yes. It was quite often during, over the years it was quite often brought up that this was carried out. I think possibly to give a good name to Bomber Command. Which it did. Yes.
PL: Because it, it was stopped wasn’t it? Do you know anything about that? Why it was stopped.
JP: What?
PL: I think that it didn’t go on right until the end of the war did it? Or did it?
JP: Operation Manna?
PL: Yes.
JP: Yeah. Well, right more or less, up to right to the end of the war. Yeah.
PL: Right.
JP: Until Holland was liberated and there was then freedom of travel and, you know it was delivered by road as well.
PL: Fantastic. So, the crew must, it must have been such a different, a different experience to, to going on the raids. It must have been a wonderful uplifting experience. Did you feel safe?
JP: Well, you felt, I don’t say, I mean on the first one when we went to the briefing and found out what the trip was and we thought well at five hundred feet.
PL: Yes.
JP: We’d be been blown to bits.
PL: Yes. Yes.
JP: If they do, you know. But yeah. We did wonder and the first time really what would happen. Yeah.
PL: So quite nerve wracking.
JP: Hmmn.
PL: Yeah.
JP: But anyway, and then as I say after Manna there was Operation Exodus. That was bringing the POs. That was on the 9th. The 9th of May. The day the war was supposed to have ended. And there we went into Brussels and picked up a lot of the aircrew who had been shot down. And we brought them back alive to, to the UK. And that was —
PL: So was it specifically aircrew then that you brought back?
JP: Mainly. Mainly it was, yeah. Yeah. We brought back, I think it was, yeah it was twenty four. We had twenty four prisoners of war in the Lancaster. And there was never seats of course. They just sat on the floor of the aircraft. And the trip took what? There and back was four hours forty five minutes. But the, it was, you know bringing them back. When we came to the coast of England coming back. Some had been there, prisoners of war, for up to five years. And it really was something, you know. They really did appreciate coming back.
PL: It must have been very emotional for them.
JP: It was. Yeah. It was for us as well. Yeah. So —
PL: Yes. Good. Wonderful. And it must have been a bit tight having twenty four. Was there, was everybody a bit squashed in?
JP: Well, they were mainly, mainly from the crew compartment at the front to the back of the rear turret. And they were all on the floor there. Yeah.
PL: Fantastic. Did you want, did you want to say any more about that before I move on?
JP: Sorry?
PL: Did you want to say anything more about Operation Manna before we move on? Or the, or indeed Operation Exodus.
JP: Not really. The big thing about Manna was how appreciative the Dutch were that it was carried out. I mean, when we were at the Bomber Command Centre this last week a Dutch officer came and presented to the Centre a picture of the Lancasters flying low over Holland and dropping the food. And they want that to be shown you know, in the Centre. As part of the war. Yeah.
PL: It must make you feel very proud.
JP: Yeah.
PL: Wonderful. Thank you. So something else that you touched on was your involvement with the civil war in Greece. And you said that was an interesting experience.
JP: Yes. Well I was on the communication flight there for the RAF delegation to the Greek Air Force and we did quite a bit of flying in the operational area where the communists were. And we carried the Greek generals and British generals who observed what was going on. And with the fight against communism. I don’t, I really shouldn’t say this but the Greek Air Force, they awarded us their General Service Medal for what we did. RAF, the Air Ministry turned that down because it would mean that we were showing an active part to the Russians. So, that was cancelled. Yeah. It was amazing really.
PL: It’s all about politics in the end.
JP: Yeah. Yeah.
PL: So how long were you involved there?
JP: What? In Greece? Best part of nearly seven and a half years.
PL: Goodness. A long time.
JP: Yeah.
PL: Goodness.
JP: And during that time I married a lovely Greek girl. The photograph’s there. Do you see it?
PL: I can’t see it.
JP: Well, have a look—
PL: Oh there.
JP: Yeah.
PL: That was my first wife.
JP: She’s gorgeous.
PL: And she died when she was twenty eight years old.
JP: Oh no. Oh, I’m so sorry.
PL: Yeah.
JP: That was Maria. She died of cancer. And then five years later I married again. To Reina. And she died of cancer as well.
PL: Oh dear.
JP: Yeah. Anyway, that’s just bye the bye you know.
PL: So did you have children?
JP: Hmmn?
PL: Did you have children?
JP: Yes. I had three children. I had one by my first. First marriage. Who’s sixty five now [laughs]. And two by my second marriage. Yeah. And they are in their forties.
PL: Right.
JP: And my daughter, she just had breast cancer. So —
PL: You’ve had a tough time of it.
JP: Yeah.
PL: So Greece was a really significant —
JP: Hmmn?
PL: So Greece turned out to be a very significant part of your life.
JP: Oh yes. Yeah.
PL: In all sorts of ways.
JP: It was, flying wise it was interesting working along with the Greek Air Force, you know.
PL: So did you make lots of friends in —
JP: Hmmn?
PL: Did you make lots of friends in the Greek Air Force?
JP: In the Greek Air Force.
PL: Yes.
JP: Well, yes. Not a lot. No. But I met quite a few. I flew the odd trip with the Greek Air Force and just as young and daft [laughs] Yeah.
PL: But that was a very different experience.
JP: Yeah.
PL: Right. Ok.
JP: So, that was my history really in the services.
PL: Well, something else I wanted to ask you about that you mentioned that I thought would be really interesting to talk about is you talked about your involvement with the atomic bomb.
JP: Oh yes.
PL: And you mentioned that a couple of times. Do you want to just expand on that and say —
JP: Well, the one. Oh sorry.
PL: No. No. Don’t worry.
JP: I flew on the trip to Australia. To, it was either Woomera or Maralinga. And we carried the head for the hydrogen bomb. That was some trip because they had the, the head of the bomb in the centre of the aircraft and a yellow circle painted around it. And no way had we to step within that yellow circuit, circle. And an RAF squadron leader sat with it all the time until we got out to Australia. Yeah. That was, that was interesting. But —
PL: Was that, was that just a security procedure then?
JP: Sorry?
PL: Was that just a security procedure that you weren’t allowed to step within the ring?
JP: No. That was because, well the possibility of what do you call it?
PL: Radiation.
JP: Yeah.
PL: Right. Goodness. It just seems so —
JP: Anyway.
PL: Yeah.
JP: We were all —
PL: So how many, how many times did you do that? Was that just the one trip to Australia? Or —
JP: No. I did two, two trips to Australia. To the base in the south of Australia which was Maralinga or Woomera. Yeah. And that was, that was a long trip there and back in those days because it was in a Hastings aircraft which was a piston. And a piston aircraft and rather slow.
PL: Goodness. So how long did it take?
JP: The flying was somewhere over a hundred hours there and back. Yeah. Yeah.
PL: Goodness me. So you stopped off along the way.
JP: Oh yes. Yeah.
PL: Can you, can you remember where you stopped off and what the arrangements were?
JP: I think the first stop was Castel Benito. I’ve got it in my logbook there somewhere. And first stop was in North Africa. And the second was Iraq at Habbaniya. The third was Karachi. The fourth was Ceylon. Ceylon which is now —
PL: Sri Lanka.
JP: Yeah. And then on to Singapore. And then down to Darwin. And then down to Adelaide. And then across to, to Maralinga. Yeah.
PL: Amazing. Amazing.
JP: And then when I was at Farnborough and then the last years of flying I was mainly on the training. The, mainly on the trials of a navigation aid to cover the whole world. So, to do that we had to fly the whole world. Which was great because I went from South Africa to the North Pole to the Far East. To Hong Kong. To Australia. To Canada. What do you call it? The Caribbean. And South America and that. We had to fly world-wide which was very interesting. But of course all that’s been superceded now by what? Sat nav.
PL: Well, it’s everything is part of a process.
JP: That’s it. Yeah.
PL: And without your process then, you know nothing else could have followed.
JP: No.
PL: What an extraordinarily adventurous life you’ve had.
JP: Sorry?
PL: What an adventurous life you’ve had.
JP: Well, yeah. It was. It was. The two sad times was the loss of my wives.
PL: Of course.
JP: But, with regards to the rest of it. As regards to the services I wouldn’t have changed anything. No.
PL: Wonderful.
JP: Yeah.
PL: I I know we’re going right back to the very start but I’m curious to know how you became involved in signals in the first place. What drew you to that particular discipline?
JP: What? Sorry?
PL: I’m curious to know how you became drawn into signals in the first place.
JP: Well, we, it was what, well — you volunteered for aircrew. All the aircrew were volunteers. Nobody was called up to fly. I volunteered in Edinburgh. And at the time it was, what they were after at the time was air gunners and wireless operator air gunners. That’s what they really were after. And I became a w/op AG. What was known as a w/op AG or wireless operator air gunner. Eventually that became a signaller. Yeah. But —
PL: So that side of it appealed to you.
JP: Hmmn?
PL: That, that side of things appealed to you. The wireless operation. Had you had any experience before that? Had you had any interest before that or was it just something that you wanted?
JP: In the Air Force generally —
PL: No. No. In the, to be a wireless operator.
JP: Well, no. I was in the Air Training Corps of course. As a youngster in 1940.
PL: Right.
JP: And I was good at Morse. And of course they gave you, this was part of the selection procedure. I, I was then able to do what? Fifteen words a minutes Morse. Which I’d done and of course that was it.
PL: Fantastic.
JP: Yeah. Because the communications with Bomber Command was all done in Morse in those days. Yeah.
PL: And when you joined your crew were you with the same crew throughout Operation Manna and —
JP: Yeah. Same crew with me. Yeah.
PL: Right. So can you remember how you all came to be together?
JP: How did everybody —
PL: How, how —
JP: How did we come to be together?
PL: Together as a crew.
JP: Well that was at OTU. The Operational Training Unit on Wellingtons. What they did was they put all the aircrew in a hangar and the group captain said, ‘Sort yourselves out into crews [laughs] So it was, you know —
PL: So, how did you do it?
JP: Well, just sort of went around and speaking to each other and — yeah. Our skipper, Flying Officer Hall, he said, ‘Have you got anybody? I said, ‘Not yet.’ He said, ‘Well, you have now. You’re going to be my wireless operator.’ [laughs] You see. And that was how the they selected you. You selected yourselves.
PL: Fantastic.
JP: I had no idea what — really when I think of it now. We all volunteered. We didn’t know what we were volunteering for. My God we didn’t. I mean the losses were something terrible weren’t they? I remember when we went to, went to the squadron. Posted into 626 we were, we went to the picket post and they said that we would be in hut twelve and as a crew. So we went to this hut twelve and there was all the beds there. And you know people that had got up from there and, you know. Haven’t they got rid of them? We went back to the picket post and said, ‘It’s occupied.’ They said, ‘Well, they were shot down last night.’ And that was that. But I thought, well what an introduction to the squadron. Yeah. Yeah.
PL: Terrible.
JP: Still —
PL: And you all, did the whole of your group survive the war?
JP: The whole of — ?
PL: Did your, did your group survive?
JP: My, our crew.
PL: Your crew.
JP: Oh yeah. Yeah. We all survived. Yeah.
PL: Fantastic. Fantastic. And have you, did you keep in touch at all?
JP: Yeah. Kept in touch with the, with the bomb aimer. The two gunners were Canadians. Of course they went back to Canada when the war finished. And I kept in touch with the bomb aimer right until he died. What? A couple of years ago now and we used to go together to Holland for the Operation Manna. We went together on that. And, you know we were good friends right until he died. Yeah. Arthur. He’s up there on that photograph. That’s 626 Squadron.
PL: Fantastic. Fantastic.
JP: Yeah. That was taken in May ’45 when the war ended. These were all aircrew. It just shows. You know. I think the, those killed in 626 was somewhere about a thousand two hundred. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Right then.
PL: Well, there’s one more thing I want to ask you and that is about your feelings about how Bomber Command were treated after the war? What did you think about that? Do you have any comment that you’d like to be recorded?
JP: Well, there’s no doubt that the bombing of Germany [pause] was it right? Was it wrong? It’s difficult to say. I think, I think it was a means for the ending of the war but of course they always bring up Dresden don’t they? And Hanover. But I’m convinced that if the Luftwaffe had had an aircraft equivalent to the Lancaster we would have been bombed off the face off this earth as well. But they didn’t have a an aircraft that carried the load that we did. I mean they were mainly twin-engined in the, in their bomber force. Heinkels. But the Lancaster was a marvellous aircraft. And, was it right? Was it wrong? Difficult to say. I’m glad I ended up on Operation Manna. That was the, the saving grace wasn’t it? But no. It was wrong in a way and of course it was right in another way.
PL: Of course. Do you think that Bomber Command should have had more recognition for their contribution to the end of the war?
JP: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it’s funny. Last week we had a picture taken against The Spire. And I don’t know how many of us were on the picture but there was quite a few. And there was one chap who said that. Why have they never given a — what do you call it, a campaign medal for operations in Bomber Command? It’s true. Why they didn’t I don’t know. They wanted to keep it quiet I think. But now. Now, they talk about it don’t they? Yeah. I mean the Memorial down at, in London. That came, what a couple of years later on. No. Two years ago or something like that isn’t it? And now the Spire. They’ve shown. Yeah. Because when you think of it fifty five thousand five hundred and seventy three. God almighty. Imagine a football ground full of fifty five and a half thousand airmen. That was the amount of aircrew that were lost. And they were all volunteers. Yeah. Well, anything else you would like to know? There’s nothing much more I can say.
PL: Well, unless there’s anything else you’d like to tell me then I guess the most important thing for me to say is to thank you very very much indeed on behalf of the Bomber Memorial [coughs] Bomber Command Memorial Trust.
JP: Yeah.
PL: For sharing your experiences with us. So thank you very much indeed.
JP: That’s alright I’m sure.
[recording paused]
PL: So, there was just another operation that you didn’t have a chance to talk about. Do you want to just tell me a little bit about that?
JP: Well, Operation Dodge was bringing the troops back from the end of the war in Africa and that. And we, we flew back. I think it was twenty four on each trip. That was much the same as Exodus. They were seated in the fuselage. And it was a longer trip of course. It was over six hours from, from Pomigliano and Rome to the United Kingdom. And I did that trip twice. So, we, we flew out there. Spent one night and then back the next day to the United Kingdom. This was to speed up the evacuation and the return of the troops. There’s nothing much more to say really. That, again that was they all looked forward to home coming and it was a quick way to, for them all to return home.
PL: Wonderful.
JP: Yeah.
[recording paused]
PL: So you were just telling me John about the cathedral.
JP: Yeah.
PL: So you set off and then you circled around.
PL: Well, how shall I put it? We, we often passed close to it you know. After leaving. Yeah. And of course it was always, I mean all those airfields were all, a lot of them were in sight of the cathedral, you know. It was a point that —
JP: A landmark.
PL: As I said it was a point that some of the, a lot of the crews never saw again and that was it. You know. They didn’t come back. But yeah. Anyway, that Spire. The height of it is the wingspan of a Lancaster. Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Plendeleith
Creator
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Pam Locker
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APlenderleithJ151007
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:42:36 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
John Plenderleith was in the Air Training Corps before he volunteered to join the RAF. He was posted to 626 Squadron at Wickenby and when the crew were allocated their hut they were surprised to find it was still occupied with another crew’s personal possessions. When they enquired they were told the other crew had failed to return from their last operation. He took part in Operations Manna and Exodus and recalls the appreciation of the Dutch people for receiving the food aid and of the ex-prisoners returning home. After the war he was posted to Transport Command and flew in Greece and also carried the nuclear head for the atomic bomb for testing in Australia. While at RAF Farnborough he took part in testing of new navigational equipment. When he retired from the RAF he became an air traffic controller for the Army Air Corps.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Egypt
Great Britain
Greece
England--Lincolnshire
England--Farnborough (Hampshire)
England--Hampshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
104 Squadron
626 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
Lancaster
memorial
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
RAF Farnborough
RAF Wickenby
Tiger force
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1080/11538/APoynterAD180416.2.mp3
1c5073d8fccdac823474949f49be5141
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Poynter, Audrey
Audrey Doreen Poynter
A D Poynter
Audrey Bennett
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Audrey Poynter (b. 1926, 2008416 Royal Air Force). She served as a mechanic in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Poynter, AD
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: Ok, this is Nigel Moore for the IBCC, it’s Monday the 16th of April, 2018, and I’m with Mrs. Audrey Poynter [beep]. So, Audrey-
AP: That’s me, yes.
NM: Tell me about your life growing up, at home as a child and at school.
AP: At home I went to an ordinary everyday school until I was ten, I was then transferred from there to Hitchin Girls Grammar School, for which my parents paid a very small fee for some odd reason, I’m not quite sure but you had to. So I was there until I was sixteen, just normal education, although I was interested in various things which went on, we actually heard- ‘Cause we had a water tower at the school and we actually heard when France capitulated, so that was a bit of the beginning of my history of the war really, and then when I finished there I went to work in my father’s garage which was a Ford dealership and I learnt to strip an engine and replace it, as it was- Should’ve been, clean and working- In working order [unclear] and I also learnt to change tires and- Tractor tires were one of the biggest things I did. I was there until I was called up at seventeen-and-a-half, the actual day that I was entitled to be called-up, because I was an only child, my parents had to give permission for me to go into the service at all, and I didn’t have to get permission to go overseas, I wouldn’t’ve been allowed, and that was alright. Went on the day I was seventeen-and-a-half, which was a very cold day in February, and I first went up to the introduction place, the name of which I managed to have forgotten, it’s in the North, and it’s where everybody else went, where you got all your uniform and you got all your injections and so on. That was fine and then that for- Perhaps for a couple of weeks, I can’t remember the exact time, [unclear] so long ago. I then was sent down to the south coast, again for square bashing really, which is what I did there, and then transferred me from there to Halton in Buckinghamshire which is where I learned to extract a screw from measure and various other things, how to cut metal. In fact recently we went back and I saw a pattern of the thing like I’d done there, and he was so pleased to see me ‘cause he’d never seen anybody since and I went years ago, obviously, and then from then on, I was posted to RAF Oakley, which is in Buckinghamshire I believe, the county. I was then put straight away onto doing the Wellington repair- Slight repairs, things like changing brakes, I didn’t change an engine, nothing big like that, but one of the reasons I got used was because my fingers are smaller than the mans and there’s a- An instrument at the front of the, of the Wellington which needs changing and emptying out each time, and then you put it back and screw it back up, and the men didn’t manage the [unclear] ‘cause their fingers were a bit big, so that was- I was very useful for. Yeah, I did- I loved it, and I really [emphasis] did because it was right up my street because I had vigorously gone ahead with Fords, which- I mean basically, the basic principle is exactly the same, ‘Bang, sack[?] and squeak[?],’ we used to say [chuckles] bang, sack[?] and [unclear] for the type of engine. Ah, each time you did anything on an engine, on the Wellington, you had to go up with it afterwards, after you’d worked on it, wasn’t just me, any of the others that worked on it, had to go up and fly with it, make sure we hadn’t done anything we shouldn’t have, and it was a security thing really. I did not at that moment know that we were doing these because the New Zealand Air Force was there, they didn’t tell us that, I presume that was a secret, secret thing, that the New Zealand Air Force had come. Whether they were actual air force, presumably they were, but they came to learn to fly. I didn’t have anything to do with the flying, I only had to maintain the aeroplane, which I did for day after day, after day, after day, exactly the same thing, change the plugs, do the plastic things that are on the top, can’t think what you call them at the moment, where the- Yeah, plastic or paper, we had to replace those, and then we could put the cover back on top and that made a seal on the top, and this went on all the time. Now, the interesting thing was, from my point of view, I was by this time about eighteen, myself and Joan, who was the same age as me, she came from Epsom, worked on the aircraft with all the men, we were the only two girls there, the rest were men. We had a rather lively time, very nice, and they were very kind to us, only the sergeant whose name I think was Fox, Sergeant Fox, and oh dear he did swear, and I told him that I didn’t like his swearing, and he did stop, did stop [chuckles]. I was a bit naughty like that, and I’ve always told people what I think, and- Also, when we went round to see who was going to do fire duty, things like that, the corporal lady this was, she says, ‘What would you do if there was a fire?’, Bennet was my name then, corporal- Not corporal, ‘Cadet Bennet, what would you, what would you do?’, I said, ‘I would warm myself’, because by this time we were freezing [emphasis] cold, we didn’t have any heat, we didn’t have heating in the wooden huts which we lived in. That really was the basically thing that I did over and over again, over and over again, and of course in those days we called it the Wimpy as well at the Wellington, Wimpy being its nickname I believe, and then having been there for about a year, I was only in three-and-a-half years, so it wasn’t that much longer, I was sent up to RAF Disforth to work on the Yorks, and the Yorks at that time were really only using for transport, there was no fighting involved with the York at all. It was a very big, heavy aircraft, and on one occasion we were very pleased to receive the German prison- Our prisoners of war back into Britain, having been released from all their prisons over there. There were several hundred of them, I can’t remember exactly how many. One I know his name was Booth, which interested me ‘cause I thought it sounded like the Booth family, I don’t think he was anything to do with it, he was shot down on the first day of the war and he’d been there all the war, he was very glad to come home. But the others didn’t seem to know they were home, they seemed very confused and as far as we concerned all we can- Gave them was a wad, which is bun as you probably know, and a cup of tea, which seemed to me ridiculous as they’d been so hard up for food anyway, and they were covered in yellow powder to stop us getting the bugs that they’d- That was it really. I then carried on servicing the York as required until I managed to get pneumonia and pleurisy, probably because I was so much in the cold, I had to be in the cold, I also turned a car over privately which probably didn’t help. So, after I’d been in hospital for some time, which I was treated very badly, very well- Very badly, but in a way well. My parents were sent for, ‘cause I was so ill, I was given some of the first penicillin in this country, and that cured me, plus the fact that it was also used on the chap who got pleurisy then, he’d been there for months and he was able to go home in a fortnight, so I did some favours, and that really was the end of it, and I didn’t go outside anymore, they wouldn’t let me, I would much rather of done, I didn’t like office work much, but I did have to do office work ‘cause that’s what I was required to do. That’s really it, and then of course I was sent home.
NM: Ok, we-
AP: And I was home just in time for my twenty-first birthday [chuckles].
NM: Good timing, good timing.
AP: Very dull really.
NM: No, not at all, it’s actually- There’s- Must be a wealth of experience in all of what you’ve just been through. So, can I take you back to, to when you were called up?
AP: Yes.
NM: You were called up on or you volunteered?
AP: I didn’t volunteer, I received a notification that I’d been called up.
NM: Ok.
AP: This is what Denise disagreed with me, I said, ‘No Denise, I did not volunteer, they called me up, and that was the first day they could call me’.
NM: And did you choose the air force or did they-
AP: I chose the air force, yes.
NM: You chose the air force. Why did you-
AP: I also chose to go into engineering, which I was lucky really.
NM: Why did you choose the air force?
AP: ‘Cause I’d always loved it, flying and the idea of flying, always been in my heart and mind I suppose. That’s really why.
NM: Where had you come across flying before you joined up?
AP: Only normal things, for holidays, and so on, nobody in my family flew. I’d met some youngsters, Ian Letch[?] was when they were here, was one who I met and he didn’t come back, he was one of the ones that didn’t come back, he was, he was a fighter pilot, he wasn’t the bombers, but can always remember he said to me, ‘You won’t remember my birthday’, and that’s the sort of thing you forget [chuckles] and I didn’t remember his birthday I’m afraid, and he didn’t come back, so that was him, bless him. Other than that, no, flying has always appealed to me, I haven’t ever flown, haven’t ever flown. I find it romantic, they say, yes, I do.
NM: So, you chose the air force?
AP: I chose the air force.
NM: And you chose engineering because of-
AP: I chose engineering because I could do it.
NM: You could do it.
AP: Yes.
NM: And they were happy to accept you, were they? As, as a woman?
AP: Oh yeah, no problem, yeah, no problem, and strangely enough yesterday I met an officer doing the same thing, which is the furthest I’ve been with it, saw she was in the area of Marythorpe[?], I don’t know who she was but she just introduced herself, said, ‘I did engineering on the, on this one’, because, you see, people don’t realise that they started off bombing with the, with the Wellington, I started off [unclear] with Wellington, not the ones I did but, but that’s what they describe and that’s what I was there for [unclear] of course which is another thing isn’t it? I’ve always liked that type of thing shall we say.
NM: So, they sent you up north for your initial square basing and uniform and injections?
AP: Yes, that’s right, yes.
NM: Was that Padgate?
AP: Padgate, that’s it, yes.
NM: Near Liverpool.
AP: And then we went down to Gloucester [emphasis], near Glo- Right near Gloucester it was, for square bashing, the only place I did square bashing actually, and then onto Halton from there. They’re the, they’re the places I went to, I didn’t go anywhere else.
NM: And how long were you at Halton for?
AP: About nine months I think, there was quite a lot to learn, but they were very good and very helpful. I can’t tell you what I did that I shouldn’t, should I really? [Chuckles]
NM: You can do, it’s many years ago, gone by.
AP: Oh yeah, yes well. I had my bicycle there at Halton, which was fifty miles away from Letchworth, and I discovered that if I went over the back I could get out, went over the back and then down the Dunstable Downs, and was at that time, it was so early in the war that we as a [unclear] still got petrol, so they used to bring me back and drop me off outside [chuckles] outside the place.
NM: So, you used to cycle from Halton to Letchworth?
AP: Yes, I did, yes.
NM: Fifty miles, to come and see you, your parents?
AP: Just to come and see my parents, yeah, I didn’t have a boyfriend then, no.
NM: Gosh.
AP: [Chuckles] My boyfriend story, you don’t have to write this but, when I was sixteen, I’ve got the years wrong, did he say that was five year- When I was sixteen, I was swimming at Letchworth swimming pool and I used to dive and so on, and he saw me there and he said to somebody, ‘Who’s that girl?’, so they told him and my parents and so on, he said, ‘I’m going to marry her’. He did, but not till I was twenty-eight.
NM: Wow.
AP: Yeah. Mind of course at that age, being five years younger, just imagine how stupid I thought he was [chuckles], I tried not to be nasty to him, I wasn’t, he was in the boy's brigade as well. That probably is another idea where I got the idea of flying, was the girls training corps I was in as a youngster, younger than (obviously) when I went in. My, my children also went to the boys training school as well, so they’ve all had a finger in the pie as it were, yeah.
NM: So, tell me about the engineering training at Halton.
AP: Well basically they, they tell you how to do- How to change plugs, (which I already knew anyway) how to- If there was a faulty stud[?] how to remove it and how to put a new one in, that sort of thing which is- We didn’t go any further than that really because all we did was replace plugs, and anything which was damaged when they came in, which would be a normal service on a car really, in those days, much more these days then it was. I didn’t have anything to do with the actual running of the engine at all, we used to have to run them after we’d done them so- To make sure they still went. Other than that, no, I didn’t ever have anything to do with- It was done by a sergeant of flight sergeant probably, can’t remember now exactly what. We didn’t have a pilot to do it, it was- Must’ve been the sergeants that did it, and they didn’t sort of come and take them up, they went up, the flight sergeants went up, took them up to make sure they were sound, it wasn’t us.
NM: So, you worked on, on vehicles as well as aeroengine [unclear]?
AP: Yes, I did, yeah, I’d already done that ‘cause I’d done it at home, I didn’t do a car or anything, although I could drive a car, I drove a car at sixteen, because being in the garage it was easier to drive and so on, which I did, so, yeah.
NM: So, when you finished your training-
AP: Yeah.
NM: - did they give you a rank?
AP: Yeah, only leading aircraft, I never got any higher than leading aircraft woman, yes well that’s all you’re given, and basically didn’t really matter because some of them were more than I was, corporal and so on, worked with me, yeah, and if I was doing alright, they didn’t have no complaints, or I didn’t have any complaints anyway, I was very thorough because that’s the way I am.
NM: And were there any other girls on your course? Or were you the only one?
AP: Just the two.
NM: Right.
AP: Me and this Joan Dunkley[?], she came from Epsom and her father was Vick Smithe, chief lad- No sorry, her father was chief lad to Vick Smithe (got that wrong), the race horse owner, in Epsom. I went there actually, and even that had its wealth[?] ‘cause as we were having a meal, a vice woman[?] came over and mum said, ‘Get under the table’, [unclear], we all got under the table and she said, ‘George, for god's sake do something about that bugger’ [chuckles], he said, ‘What d’you expect me to do? Catch it’, [chuckles] tickled me to death really, if I was a visitor, I don’t think I would’ve used the word bugger but probably he did quite often. I never swore by the way when I was in the air force, although they did, mind that’s only in storytelling, I never did, never did.
NM: So, Joan came back with you to your parents?
AP: No, yeah- No I went to her, I went to her, I don’t think she ever came to me, no she didn’t, not as far as I remember, just didn’t work out that way, but where she is now of course I don’t know, I would think if she’d been married, she’d probably die by now, I mean I’m ninety-one [chuckles].
NM: So, tell me about when you were off duty at Halton, what was your social life like?
AP: Oh yes, we used to go out in the squadron bus, and we used to go into Oxford, there’s a very good dance hall in- Just inside Oxford which we used to go, we always used to go there, that is- Was the outest part, inside we used to have dances in the hall, there was a hall there where we could meet and so on, other than that there wasn’t a great deal we did, really. Just normal past times [unclear], I can’t really remember doing anything extremely unusual, we were all probably quite tired by the time we’d finished for the day, didn’t go out much really ‘cause it was very much in the country, I always remember getting into trouble ‘cause I had hay fever and he said, ‘Well you’ll have to keep out of the grass’, and I thought oh, in the middle of the country, how can I stop that? Anyway, there are some stupid people about [chuckles], yeah. So that’s- Oh I used to go out with them, odd one or two, I did go out, I never slept with anyone, of course in those days it wasn’t done, I just did not sleep with anybody, don’t put that in.
NM: So, so from Halton, you were posted-
AP: To Oakley.
NM: To Oakley.
AP: And I was, I was there when war was ended.
NM: So, what, what date did you go to Oakley?
AP: That I cannot tell you, I can’t remember the dates I’m afraid. I must’ve been there at least a year, because it- I was there, out- ‘Cause I told you how cold it was. I must’ve been there in, in about February time, or in that early year of the, of the year ‘cause it was cold. I can remember when it was frosty, of course I- And I said they used my fingers ‘cause they couldn’t get them round the nuts and bolts very easily, mine did.
NM: So, they put you to work on, on Wellingtons?
AP: Straight away, yeah, and the, and the scaffolding was quite tall for me. In fact, I think I had to have a hip done recently, and I think that was basically ‘cause I always lead with the right leg, and if you do that you tend to wear the joints out, but that was all, I mean the other legs alright so think that’s what it was.
NM: So, were you attached to a unit or were you just a pool of engineers working on the aircraft?
AP: No, no, pool of engineers, not a unit, no, no, I never heard any names or anything for the units at all, I mean they were all- Oh, interestingly, quite a lot of them came from southern Ireland ‘cause they were allowed to come and they didn’t have to go back, they could go back when they liked, they could pretty please themselves, did you know that? The southern Irish? Yeah, they could come and work there for as long as they wish and I think they probably stayed because they’re probably better off than they were in Ireland at that time, and yeah, they stayed. I’ve met many Irish people since and said how pleased I was to work with them ‘cause they’re lovely people to work with, yeah those, and the rest were Londoners and all came from all over the place really, some of the men I remember quite distinctly as being Londoners, that’s where my husband come from, obviously that would happen.
NM: So how many were, were there in this pool of engineers that you were- You and Joan were part of?
AP: I should- Oh I should think there were thirty, forty of us.
NM: And how many aircraft?
AP: Well, they were coming and going all the time, we’d all got two on go, not many, I mean it wasn’t, wasn’t like an airfield exactly. We’re always two being serviced, and that’s where I don’t know, I mean I don’t know how many more there were about, whether there were any left from the bombing, that’s presumably where they came from in the first place ‘cause then they didn’t use them anymore, did they, so. I just taught these chaps to fly [unclear] I think, that’s all. Nothing more I’m afraid, nothing that I can remember.
NM: So- And Joan came with you to, to Oakley?
AP: Yeah, she came with me yes.
NM: From, from Halton, yeah, so you were there together.
AP: That’s right, yeah.
NM: So-
AP: She’d be about the same age as me, I think. What she wanted to do, she wanted to be an operator, an air operator, but they said she couldn’t be ‘cause she- Her sight was bad, but she didn’t ever have it tested, so I don’t know how they knew [chuckles]. Typical air force, but she was a bit annoyed about it, but- However, we worked together quite well.
NM: So- Were you working in hangars or out in the open-
AP: Outside.
NM: Outside.
AP: Outside, on a sort of flat metal area or, or even tarmac, I think it was tarmac actually, yeah, and we had just an ordinary hut behind us. We had huts which we could sit in, I remember that, and we used to cook ourselves eggs and beans and things in there for a meal if we wanted to eat something.
NM: And you had accommodation on the airfield somewhere else?
AP: Yes, we had accommodation, yes.
NM: So how did you get between where you were living and then the dispersals?
AP: Presumably they transported us, but I think it wasn’t that far, we could’ve walked. My feeling is that we walked, I don’t remember any transport. It was well set up, it was- The airfield was here, the way in was here, and the other places were here, all wooden- Normal brick, normal brick bottom but wooden tops, yeah. Anywhere else I’ve seen them, that’s the only place I’ve ever seen them.
NM: You mentioned the cold, but you worked in all conditions I assume?
AP: We worked in all conditions yes.
NM: Rain, sleet, snow, sunshine?
AP: Absolutely, whatever, whatever’s required at the time, we did it. We thought of course we were helping, I expect we were, but that’s-
NM: And it was only the Wellingtons there at Oakley?
AP: Only Wellingtons, I did deal with one Hurricane, which I don’t quite know how it got there, but I always remember that there was a sick bay there, and I remember this chap coming in terribly burnt, it had set fire, and he was on it at the time, nothing to do with us really but, something that happened, yeah.
NM: So, you ended up working on the Hurricane, did you? To repair-
AP: No, I didn’t ever actually work on it, no, I think he probably was too badly done for us, it’s probably greater technical need for that to be mended, put right.
NM: So, what were the off-duty hours like at Oakley?
AP: Like a day, really. We didn’t have any particular off-duty hours, we just- If we’d finished the job, we went off, that was it. It’s a bit like the end of war ‘cause I don’t remember where I went. I don’t get [unclear], I don’t drink but, I don’t know where I went at the end of war. I know I’d got my bicycle, I remember my bicycle being there, don’t know what I did, I don’t know.
NM: So, you don’t remember any particular celebrations at-
AP: No, I think, I think I got to London ‘cause I’ve got a vague recollection of the centre of London with all the people in it and that’s all, but I had to get back you see ‘cause I wasn’t on leave or anything, but everybody was so excited, I don’t think it would’ve mattered a great deal but, but it was worth going to London just for that. I’m afraid I don’t remember the details.
NM: So you went back to Oakley after the celebrations and just carried on?
AP: Just carried on as normal ‘cause as far as we’re concerned, it was still the same, we still got to teach these New Zealanders to fly our aircraft, maybe they flew there, I don’t know [unclear].
NM: So tell me about the circumstances of being transferred up to Yorkshire and Dishforth.
AP: Well, it’s only, only just you receive a notification to say, ‘You’re not required here, we’re sending you to Dishforth’, they don’t tell you why, or anything, they just tell you you’ve got to go there, and then we went by train, all went by train, and that was it really.
NM: And this was ’45, was it still?
AP: Yes, yes, yes, yeah would be ’45 now, yes, and it would’ve been later in the year, ‘cause I’ve told you that I was up at, up at Dishforth and I had to stop working outside, so it wasn’t late- Until later, when it was a bit warmer, when they laid me off and sent me home ‘cause I had pneumonia and pleurisy.
NM: Tell me about, tell me about your first impressions of Dishforth in Yorkshire.
AP: Oh, what a marvellous place, it’s ‘cause it was so sort of big and the hangars themselves were very big because the Yorks were big too, they were in hangars there, there were, as I remember, about three hangars, and the York in two of them and one empty, because they’d obviously been flying out to Germany to pick the prisoners up, that’s what they’d been doing there.
NM: So, it was different, you had to work on a different aeroplane?
AP: Oh, quite different.
NM: You were working in hangars?
AP: No, still outside.
NM: Still outside, ok.
AP: Yeah, and we were on long wooden planks alongside the engines which was a bit different from where we were before, we were sort of astride metal bars, whereas this was all laid out with proper board to stand on around the, around the York, obviously done that before, yeah, it was all new. There was like a- I had to get up there, but once you got up there, you were, you were safe, it was much easier to work on and the other things which were your feet were very safe, in the first instance.
NM: So, were your duties the same?
AP: Yes, exactly the same, exactly the same.
NM: But these were inline liquid cool engines, were they?
AP: That’s right.
NM: What was the difference?
AP: [Laughs] Bigger.
NM: From your perspective, as an engineer?
AP: Yeah, well I liked inline, I liked inline better than I liked radium anyway.
NM: Why?
AP: I don’t know really, just that they- I liked the feel of them, I liked the way they were, they were gonna run when they started. I think radials tended to be more noisy anyway, from what I remember of them, and radial, yeah.
NM: So, to you it was just the carry on of what you’d been doing previously?
AP: It was exactly the same really. Well, you see- I mean don’t forget that we’re not being paid for this, this is what we’re expected to do whatever happened really.
NM: And the accommodation was that wooden huts again or was it-
AP: Yes, yes.
NM: It was exactly the same.
AP: They were better I think, if I remember rightly, yes, they were. Better- Well
‘cause it was a more permanent station, Oakley was a very much a wartime one, whereas this- They Dishforth one was probably had been used as civilian I think, possibly. I think it probably was, yeah, yes.
NM: And again, did Joan go with you this time or?
AP: Yes, she went with me.
NM: Ok, the two of you.
AP: Yes, we both went together. I don’t know really what happened to her, because once they’d taken you away from your area, you don’t see everybody and they disappear, but she went home about the same times as I did, and then I just didn’t see her go, which I was sad about ‘cause I would’ve liked to have done really. Although we fought sometimes, we did see the eye to eye mostly. I think we fought literally, but mentally.
NM: So, was- What were the off-duty hours in Dishforth like? Were you nearby settlements?
AP: Yeah, no there was more going on on the unit. Yeah, there was NAAFI’s and things like that there, which we didn’t have in the other place, and I can remember going to the NAAFI, can also remember also going to a little dance there as well, and there were places where you could go and sit in, like a cafe, which was better than we were at Oakley. Yeah, it was well set up.
NM: So, at some point you got pleurisy and pneumonia?
AP: Yeah.
NM: And at some point, you had a car accident, which, which came first?
AP: The car accident. I- My parents came up for my leave, and we were going to Largs in Scotland, from there, it was not that far, and on the way I hit a tank trap and I turned the car over, right over so that it swivelled right round on its roof, my dad said he saved us going down into dangerous dip. They of course were alright, but I didn’t know at the time that they were. That came first, and then I assume that this was about December time, when I became ill. They of course had gone home then, we was only there for the year- For the holiday, and they sent for them to come back ‘cause I was so ill.
NM: So you weren’t, you weren’t injured in the car crash?
AP: No.
NM: Oh fortunate, wasn’t it?
AP: Yeah, it was, neither were they actually. I always remember because my mother got what we call- Oh dear, her knickers were, all of safety [unclear] we used to call them, and her legs were up here, and my dad hit the choke with knee, and it cut his knee open, that was it. So, they were lucky really.
NM: Yeah, yeah, it sounds [unclear]
AP: Serious [unclear] and when we got to the place, they wouldn’t even give us a cup of tea, and I always blame a bit for that ‘cause I think a nice hot cup of tea might’ve stopped me being ill, you don’t know of course but- Anyway, and December time I started to be ill and I was-
NM: So that was soon after?
AP: Pardon?
NM: That was very soon after then?
AP: Yes, it was, and I was still in after Christmas. So, it was bad too.
NM: So how long were you in hospital for with your ill-
AP: Two months at least. I don’t think- I think I’d have to be in a lot longer if hadn’t had penicillin. I had eighty injections in my bottom, one every eight hours, was very sore [chuckles].
NM: I bet.
AP: It cured me, I’ve always been grateful for that, I’ve always been able to take penicillin too since, you know, when you have the odd illness, yeah.
NM: So, that was the point then, you were what invalided out of the RAF?
AP: No, I wasn’t invalid, I just came out at the end of my time. I wasn’t actually that ill, no.
NM: And that was ‘47?
AP: Yes, yeah, yes, 1945, now I did three-and-a-half years, oh no we’ve got confused.
NM: So, you-
AP: I did a year-and-a-half in the war, so that was ‘44, ‘45, and two more after that, yes you’re right ‘47. ‘46, ‘47, yes that’s right.
NM: So, you were- Had recovered by the time you left the RAF?
AP: Yes, I had, I was fine. I would’ve liked to have gone back but they didn’t want me by that time which was all sorted out, that part of the, the RAF anyway.
NM: So, they actually asked you to leave did they, in effect?
AP: Yes, they did, yes.
NM: Yeah, ok.
AP: And I went to-
NM: So, what happened-
AP: - Padstow, I remember going to, to come out, that was in London isn’t it, Padstow?
NM: That was a demob centre, was it?
AP: Yes, I think so, yeah. I think it was London, in fact, I’m sure it was London. Yeah, that was it, that was all, I didn’t have to do anything else.
NM: So, tell me about life after the RAF.
AP: I went back to the garage. Still doing the same sort of thing, ‘cause I liked engineering, so that- The garage was still there in those days, so yes, I went back to it.
NM: So, this time-
AP: Normal hours, you know.
NM: You were twenty-one?
AP: Yes, I was twenty-one, yes.
NM: So-
AP: I had a boyfriend, but that didn’t come to anything, he was in the air force actually, but-
NM: So, tell me about your life since you worked in the garage then?
AP: Since [emphasis]?
NM: Yep.
AP: [Chuckles]
NM: Take me from twenty-one to now, ninety-one.
AP: Oh dear, oh dear. I’ve been various different places, but the years and things I’m not quite sure about. I’ve been to Norway five times, I’ve been up the Amazon once with my parents, that was early on. It was a three-month thing, a month to get there, a month up the Amazon, and a month to come back [chuckles], that sort of thing. What else have I done? I’m not very good at this answer.
NM: How long did you spend working in the garage?
AP: Oh years, years. Yeah. 1954 when I got married, must’ve been till about then.
NM: Tell me about your husband, you said your husband was in the RAF.
AP: Yes, he was.
NM: So you became a service wife, did you?
AP: [Laughs] yes, he, he joined the air force having finished the instrument training which he was doing, which was quite useful because he did his oil engineering and so on, and he- We got married and we went to Bournemouth for a honeymoon which got broken up ‘cause we were only there five days, and he then went back to Wales, which- He was in Wales, then, he was then training on all the normal aircraft that you train on, and he was then flying jets and when we got married, after a while, we lived in Barnstaple for a while, and then he was posted to Geilenkirchen, so we went out to Germany, and we lived in Holland, a place called Eygelshoven[?], just over the border, not far from Maastricht and while he was there, he actually flew attack at [unclear], I heard it mentioned on this ting over Syria, he went out to show the flag, just the typical British show off thing and then he came back, I had to stay in Europe because he couldn’t take me with him, and then when we’d been- We’d been there for two years ‘cause we took a car out there and we didn’t have to pay tax on it because we were out there, and when we got there I was very pregnant with my son, and when we got to the airport they wouldn’t let us in because they said we’d got to pay the tax, we were there for hours and hours and I was so- I was seven months pregnant, I wasn’t very happy, and it was late at night, and then in the end we called my father to come. He had a, a judge thing- He was a judge, so they took his word for it that we hadn’t done anything wrong and they let us home, otherwise we’d still be there, and then after that we lived in Letchworth all our lives. Keith was brought up in Letchworth by an aunt because there was no one else left to bring him up and he and his cousin were- Lived in Letchworth, got married in Letchworth. His cousin is still alive by the way, and his wife, they’re both in the air force strangely enough and-
NM: So you’re husband had left the air force at this point, had he? When he came back?
AP: Yes, he left the air force and then went into civil flying, started at Dan-Air in, in Europe, in- The east coast isn’t it Dan-Air? Think so, and then he went to Elstree and taught for a while because there weren’t any place- Weren’t any places left, and so he went on, he went up to Birmingham for a while. I can’t remember the aircraft I’m afraid, and I doubt it very much, and then he started flying the Boeings. [Unclear] where he flew to Boeings, which are what the President was flying in at that time, not anymore, he was, and they stayed out for Hong Kong for a bit longer, he’d been- He did the Seychelles and [unclear] Athens, Athens, Greece- In Greece, he moved to Greece for a while. Took me out to the Seychelles on one occasion, we had a fortnight out there which was alright, except I got bitten as usual. I think that’s it really, then when he came home, bless him, he developed Alzheimers, he wouldn’t have it was Alzheimers. He managed to have a burst aorta [unclear] while he was having his ears- Eyes tested, he was there with his son and his son said, ‘I’ll have to tell you what he’s had’, and told them what he’d had, and he’s got Alzheimers, he said, ‘I haven’t got bloody Alzheimers, I've got just [unclear]’ [chuckles] call it Alzheimers, yes, I’ve got the word Alzheimers. Yeah mentally he became very bad.
NM: Oh dear.
AP: Yeah, and it was six years actually that he was- Had-
NM: So, when your husband was flying fighters and jets in the RAF and you had been in the RAF before him, what, what did you think then? ‘Cause you were out of the RAF and he was in it? What did-
AP: I loved [emphasis] it.
NM: You loved being a service wife?
AP: I didn’t mind, I never had fear of losing him, I never did have and we got a couple of friends who we asked to stand in, in case anything happened to him while he was away, and they did, in fact they’ve both gone now, and yeah- No, I never got worried about it ‘cause I thought he’s a good pilot, he’s too careful to do anything stupid, although he did have things happen to him obviously when he was flying, but no, [unclear].
NM: Can you remember what he was flying? Types of aeroplanes?
AP: [Chuckles] Yes, I knew you were going to ask me that, Sabre, he did the Macfin Two[?] Mac Two[?], I’ll have to go up and look what it is, upstairs on the landing, not one in here is there?
NM: What- Don’t worry, we’ll, we’ll-
AP: Pardon?
NM: Don’t worry about it for now.
AP: No?
NM: It’s fine. So, when you look back in your time, in your time in the RAF-
AP: Yeah.
NM: What, what, what are your feelings about it?
AP: I loved it, every minute of it, every minute of it, I even liked being told off because I thought that was part of security and that was part of learning, if you didn’t know that you shouldn’t say these things, then that- How you learn, how it’s necessary for people to tell you to do the things right, yeah, no, I loved it. I really did. I can always remember (this is soon after I said to the corporal that if it was cold, I’d warm myself) I was out in- Course it was all dark with no lights and I walked into a brick wall and I hit my face and my head, and they said, ‘You shouldn’t’ve drunk so much’, I said, ‘I don’t even drink’. I didn’t have a drink till I was nineteen, and that was only ‘cause it was a party, I never over drank, I did have a drink occasionally but to me, it was a lovely life for a woman, man too for that matter, man too yeah.
NM: Well, I say, as a woman in the RAF at that point, must’ve been quite rare, were you- Did you have any special favours from the men, or was it just as hard for you as?
AP: No, just as hard, they treated you even harder in fact, they could be very saucy but then I didn’t mind that, I didn’t mind- You see to me, this business of where they criticise ‘cause men shout at women as they pass by, that’s ridiculous [emphasis], they used to that to all the time, just rode over, didn’t take notice of it, it’s fine [chuckles] to me, but then I’m a bit, I’m a bit easy pleased I must admit, I don’t mind a joke, if it’s a bit naughty, but then if you’ve been in the air force you were gonna get them weren’t you? [Chuckles]. No, I loved the life, I really did, I’d go back if I was younger, I really would, yeah.
NM: ‘Cause you saw RAF life from both sides then, both being in it and then also as- When your husband was in it?
AP: Absolutely, I must tell you [unclear] story, where I went to Geilenkirchen one night to be in the mess, for the mess meal and Keith had been playing football and he suddenly said, ‘Oh god’, he said, ‘I’ve got cramp in my leg’, so I knelt down on the floor and rubbed his leg, which of course it was here, the back of the thigh, just as everybody came in didn’t I? To us that was a joke but not everybody’s joke is it really? [Chuckles] No, that’s how I treated life, if it was a joke, it was a joke, if not then I treated it seriously, I hope I did anyway, I mean the fact that I did my work, I did it thoroughly, I meant it to be thorough and I meant it to be good, and at the time of course I didn’t realise that we weren’t really in it any more, it was, it was- Well nobody did, did they because it was only another year or so since the war ended.
NM: So it had to be good because of course they asked you to take a flight each time you-
AP: They always took a flight, yes [unclear] take a flight.
NM: So, you’ve- How many flights in total? Did you ever keep a log?
AP: No, I didn’t, no I didn’t, we didn’t in those days, we had- Well every time I finished one, I was quite- Must’ve done sort of, between seven or eight I suppose, different times, not at the same time obviously, yeah. Same- Probably the same aircraft came back again, I don’t remember, I don’t remember the aircraft numbers or anything. You see we had to be so careful, you didn’t put anything down in writing, it was still all secret.
NM: Now, one of the episodes you mentioned was the return of the POW’s when you were at Oakley.
AP: Yes, that’s right.
NM: Tell me about them coming back.
AP: Well, there were- There must’ve been between fifty and sixty, I can’t remember exactly, they were all dressed in the same sort of outfits, and because they’d all been covered in this yellow paint, there was sort of dust, but lumpy dust which was to kill the bugs that they’d picked up there before they came home and they were all dressed the same and they looked so dull, so- I mean [unclear] some of them had probably been there four years, don’t know do we? Four, five years even, five years, ‘39, ’41. They didn’t look particularly physically ill, only mentally ill I think, and as I said to you, they didn’t seem to know where they were. Did they think to say [unclear] going home? I don’t know. We just said, ‘Well, you’re home now’. We knew they’d got to go somewhere else, so if they asked, we had to say, ‘Well you have to be medically checked’, we had to tell them all this you see.
NM: So you were part of the reception-
AP: Yeah, yeah.
NM: - meeting?
AP: Yes, well there must’ve been sort of ten or twenty of us there, just going round and talking to them, making them- Try to make them feel at home, which is very difficult if they don’t know where they are. I mean RAF Dishforth is nowhere to them. I’d say, ‘Well you’re in the north of England’, which is about the best they’d get really. Yeah, remember them going, I think they were still sitting there when we left.
NM: ‘Cause that was- Yeah, that was at Oakley, wasn’t it?
AP: I don’t know- Pardon?
NM: That was at Oakley, wasn’t it? They came back to Oakley?
AP: No, they came back to Dishforth.
NM: Did they?
AP: Yes, it was in the York remember. They couldn't've come in a- In one of those, there was too many of them. No, it was Dishforth.
NM: Ok, so they came back to Dishforth?
AP: Yes, definitely Dishforth.
NM: Ok
AP: Yeah, big aircraft you see, the York. I don’t know, as I’ve never seen the runway, if the runway at Oakley would’ve been big enough for the York, probably wouldn’t, it’s all so different, isn’t it? Definitely York, where- That’s a proper airport, a real airport, now that’s the difference between Oakley and Dishforth, Dishforth was a real airport type place, big area of white- Floor area to land, grass area to land, yeah, whereas we didn’t see the landing don’t forget, we only saw the aircraft arrive probably toed by a, a tractor, that’s [unclear] I remember it and just part there for us to deal with. Nothing very important about that. Sorry, I hope that’s-
NM: That’s fine.
AP: Hasn’t bored you to tears?
NM: Not at all, not at all. That’s absolutely fantastic, thank you. Do you want to just talk me through some of these photographs we’ve got here?
AP: Yes I don’t know [unclear]
NM: There’s one of you sitting on a propeller.
AP: That’s it, that’s, that’s one of these.
NM: That’s a Wellington
AP: Yeah, that’s a Wellington, yeah. Oh, that’s just me [chuckles] [unclear], there I am again, it’s the same one but slightly different, I used to have to crawl along that you see.
NM: Ok. I think we’ll leave it there, shall we?
AP: Yeah, surely, yeah.
NM: Thank you very much indeed and we’ll take it from there.
AP: That’s just Keith and-
NM: Thank you Audrey.
AP: You’re welcome. Keith and his best man.
NM: Oh, that’s your husband?
AP: Yeah.
NM: Which one’s your husband?
AP: [Chuckles] I shall remember, that’s Keith.
NM: That’s him there. A good day, both in their flying uniforms with their wings.
AP: Yes, yes.
NM: Best man as a pilot as well.
AP: Yes.
NM: Fantastic. Your diamond wedding greetings from the queen?
AP: Yes, that’s right
NM: Fantastic
AP: Denise wrote and told her, so she did it- You have to write and tell, she doesn’t do it automatically, I didn’t know that. Now what were you doing, ‘cause you’re a doctor now are you? Doctor of medicine or-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Audrey Poynter
Creator
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Nigel Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-04-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APoynterAD180416
Format
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00:56:01 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cheshire
Description
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Having worked in her father’s garage, Audrey was called up, aged 17½, and joined the Royal Air Force. After RAF Padgate, she did some square-bashing at Gloucester before going to RAF Halton. She was taught to change plugs, replace faulty studs and anything damaged. She worked on vehicles as well as aircraft engines. Audrey was posted to RAF Oakley, doing repairs on Wellingtons. There were 30-40 engineers on site. She recalls how cold it was and how they worked outside. After a year, she was sent to RAF Dishforth where she repaired Yorks, which were used to transport several hundred prisoners of war from Germany, many in a confused state. Audrey was one of only two females at all three stations. She was hospitalised with pneumonia and pleurisy, and was one of the first in the country to receive penicillin. Audrey was demobilised in 1947 and returned to work in the garage.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Sally Coulter
Temporal Coverage
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1945
1947
ground crew
ground personnel
hangar
mechanics engine
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
prisoner of war
RAF Dishforth
RAF Halton
RAF Oakley
RAF Padgate
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/822/10806/PFlintCE1601.1.jpg
371cc9c8f2411ee0b5713627154de47d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/822/10806/AFlintC160421.2.mp3
c21fed5851cb164e0d77b2c9cea6b7b9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Flint, Charles
C Flint
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Charles Flint (1925 - 2019, 1812492 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 115, 178, 70 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Flint, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: So, the date is the 21st of August. It’s 2 o’clock — of April sorry 2016. It’s 2 o’clock in the afternoon. I’m with Mr Charles Flint at his address in Welwyn Garden City. Would you like to tell me a little bit about your background? Your childhood, your growing up before you joined the RAF.
CF: Well, what happened was I was working down a tube station that was completely covered in bricks so the trains could go past. Where all the people concerned with the army, navy and air force they were there. And what happened one day I went across Trafalgar Square to get stuff for the Charing Cross Hotel. And I was walking across, come across a Lancaster. And the first thing the bloke says, ‘Would you like to go on it?’ I says, ‘Yeah.’ ‘Got a name and address?’ I give him my name and address where I used to live. And it was my day off the next day and when I got home there was a letter waiting for me. My mother says, ‘What you got there?’ I said, ‘Well, mind your own business first.’ I opened it up. I’d got a, been accepted for the Royal Air Force. She said, ‘Stupid sod. You’ll be called up.’ I said, ‘I’m never going to be called up. I want to do what I would do.’ And from then on I had to go Bridgnorth. Well, you do all the personal training. Learning how to march, reverse, fire a rifle and all that business. Yeah. Went to a place called Bridgnorth where we learned how to do the Morse code. And it took thirteen months to learn all the Morse code. And once you’d learned the Morse code we started in these three [unclear] and it tells you what we were doing. So, if you’d like to read it. As I say you can see what happened.
NM: Why don’t you just tell me?
CF: Yeah.
NM: We’ll look at the books later.
CF: Yeah. So, once you’d learned to do the, what you were supposed to do you’d got to get crewed up. They put you in a big hangar. Shut the doors. Locked it. Hundreds of people inside. You got to select your crew. So, first two blokes I met was a [pause] there was a Birmingham bloke. He went up in the middle. Top of the middle of the aircraft. And he could go around and around with two guns and shoot. The other bloke was a Scotch bloke and he was a rear, rear turret. The pilot. You had to pick up who it was. And then you needed a navigator. You had to pick him up. And once you crewed up they wouldn’t let you out until everybody had crewed up. And then I went to Bridgnorth where I had thirteen months to do the Morse code. By then, when they locked you in this hangar to get the pilot and the stuff you pick out your pilot. Or go up to him saying, ‘Do you need — ?’ If he said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Could I do it?’ ‘Yes.’ So that is it. You pick it up and you‘d got a crew then of seven. From then on he has to be taught what to do and as I say the first time we had to go up I had to do a test so that I could Morse code. And until I got on that pass they won’t let you go. Well, after I’d finished the tests, got away with it, went to Bridgnorth. From Bridgnorth to Bishops Court. That’s in Ireland. There four of us were trained to fire rifles. But we had to watch it. The copper says, ‘Don’t go in town because you’ve got uniform. I’ll teach you how to do what it is.’ He come back and once you start on the aircraft, it’s the pilot. He has to do what is said here. And if you’d like to read on it tells you how it goes.
NM: Ok. But keep telling me your story.
CF: Yeah.
NM: In your own words.
CF: Pardon?
NM: So keep, keep talking.
CF: Yeah.
NM: Telling me about your own.
CF: As I say —
NM: After you’d crewed up.
CF: Well, I went in Dominies first. They’re the double winged ones which was very awkward because there was three of us going around trying to contact the wireless operator on, you know. But eventually we got through and you got the crew and we went to [pause] to a place called Witchford in Herefordshire. And there was always thirty three aircraft from each squadron. The same squadron. Thirty three A, B and C. And that was how you took off. Apparently you had about three on the runway taking off. You go over. Then he has to do low flying exercises and all this business. We just keep flying and gradually he becomes a pilot. He gets his wings. And then from then onwards we started flying. Well, there’s, in there a series of places we bombed. And the last three bombs we’d done — the first we’d done daylight attacks on the, his atomic place he was trying to build. And then the last three, last three bombs we dropped was on Potsdam when Hitler give in. And the three bombs at the time was less than when the prisoners were receiving. One of them came to my Aircrew Association and he said, ‘Who dropped the bombs?’ I said, ‘My crew.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘What were they?’ I told him. There was an eighty, sixty and a forty thousand pound bombs followed by five hundred pounders. And when they dropped them we flew up about fifty feet after dropping then. And then from then onwards we flew over. We finished up in Egypt. Was out there for about seven years just doing normal flying up and down the coast. Up to Algiers where something happened to the pilot where he said, ‘Don’t ever tell Beryl what happened to me.’ That was his wife. And after seven years you had a number that you had to carry about. And that was your release number. I forget where I lived. It was somewhere in, just out of town near where the radio transmitters were, you know. And there were three women. I think it was. They, one used to go to where the Morse code machine was. Another one went to where the Beauforts used to take off. And the other one went somewhere else and they took it in turns. At the time there was about six foot of snow. And the warrant officer in charge he called me over. He said, ‘Charlie,’ he says, ‘I know what your rank is. You’re a warrant officer. Fetch the airmen down to me. We’ve got a meet. A big ATA meeting for the erks.’ The erks were just an ordinary bloke who looked after all the engines. I called them. Got them in line in threes. Marched them down. He said, ‘Right. Here’s your bed. Your place.’ I went there. A little hut. I had my own place to sleep. There was a fire inside where we had coke burners. I was there about what seven days then a letter come from somewhere. I don’t know who it was. I had to go to Blackpool. When I got up to Blackpool they took my uniform away and give me ordinary clothes and I was dismissed. And that was it.
NM: Ok.
CF: But we went to Iraq. Iran. People were quite nice. Look at them now. They’re fighting one another. That’s Daisy. She’s always after people. But — and that was the finish of my air force.
NM: Ok.
CF: And up there, oh. At the end of the war. Prior to going to Egypt we dropped food to the Dutch. And up there on the wall you can see. Up. No. Right up the right hand side there’s a big one called The Manna. The other one’s just the main — what squadron I was on. 115 Squadron. So that’s it. I was in seven years. And if I’d have had any brothers or sisters I would have gone to New Zealand. Because we had Australians, New Zealands, Canadians and all mixed crews. But as I was an only child I would have loved to have gone to New Zealand because the New Zealanders spoke better English than the Australians. But other than that as I say seven years I liked. And I didn’t know whether I should stay on or not but I didn’t. So, after I left the air force I come home. Eventually I was waiting to go to the, to the Trocadero Cinema and my two cousins got up and there was a girl there who became my wife. And that’s her over there.
NM: Right. Ok.
CF: So that’s my life in the air force and that.
NM: Can I take you —
CF: She didn’t know I’d been in the air force. I told her when we started going on holidays. Used to go Tenerife every year. And I’ve got a card over there stating it was thirty five years since we’ve been there.
NM: Can I, can I take you back?
CF: Yeah.
NM: How come, how did you choose to become a wireless operator? How did that —
CF: Pardon?
NM: How did you become a wireless operator?
CF: Oh, it took thirteen months in Bridgnorth.
NM: Yeah. But why a wireless operator? How come you become a wireless operator?
CF: Yeah. Yeah. You have to train to become it.
NM: Yeah, but —
CF: You had to learn the Morse code first. And they come along, give you a test. If you pass it then they give you your stripes which were sergeant’s stripes. And then after what was it? A year. They promoted me to a warrant officer. And then that was it. After that we finished up in the Algiers after we’d done our, all our stuff and I came out of the air force.
NM: So, can you tell me about your crew?
CF: Well, Harry Hooper was the pilot. I was the wireless operator. The navigator never told us where he come from. But Geoff came from Glasgow. He was the rear gunner. And the other bloke, I forget his name now, came from Birmingham. When we come back we had to go to customs. When we got to customs I had a big box. In it I had five thousand fifty tins of cigarettes, soap, Camel sort, three bottles of wine and he said ok. He says to Geoff, ‘What you got?’ ‘Nothing.’ ‘Open your bag [pause] Oh,’ he said, ‘That’s lovely. I want fifteen pound off of you.’ So I said, he said, ‘You got away with it.’ I said, ‘I told him what I had. More than you.’ But otherwise he got nothing because it was taken away from him because he couldn’t pay the fifteen pound. All we had was shrapnel. And that was the finish of the air force.
NM: Ok. So, you were based in Witchford.
CF: Pardon?
NM: You were based in Witchford.
CF: Witchford.
NM: 115 Squadron.
CF: Yeah. Herefordshire.
NM: So, what was life like on the squad —
CF: Eh?
NM: Tell me what life was like on the squadron.
CF: Oh well. As I say you was, you was in your billets and if you was going on you would be woken up by one of the erks and said you were due to fly. You’d get dressed. Go in the café and you’d be eggs and bacon. Every time you go on a trip you got eggs and bacon. But as I say there was thirty three aircraft who took off one after the other over the cathedral. And in the cathedral there’s books about this size. That thick. There’s twenty. Over twenty of them. Names and addresses where they lived. They’re the people who died in the squadron. And our squadron actually had the most losses throughout. Even in the First World War. And as I say after seven years I was out of the air force.
NM: Ok.
CF: And as I say I was living in London, nothing to do and suddenly out of here appeared this woman who became my wife. Fifty eight years married. Now she’s up in the crematorium. But other than that everything’s ok now.
NM: Are there any of the trips you did, any of the operations you did —
CF: Yeah.
NM: With 115.
CF: It’s all in the books.
NM: Yeah. Are there any —
CF: Yeah. I’d done about ten. Ten day ones. And the last one was on Potsdam. Nights. That took us eight hours fifty.
NM: So —
CF: And that finished the war.
NM: So you did about eleven trips with 115.
CF: Yeah.
NM: Yeah. And during that time were you ever attacked?
CF: Well, we was attacked because you’d got holes coming in but it was strong enough to stop the bullets coming out. Coming in. You could hear them trinkling along the wing and catching in the power — they were blown away. So, funnily enough we never had that. The last trip we was doing over to Potsdam it was a night attack and the skipper said, ‘Go down. See the flare go out. Make sure it hits.’ But we used to have a little thing called H2S but they took it out because the Germans could track it. A big six hole, in the dark, walking along, parachute in one hand holding on, walking slowly over this, ‘Ok Harry. Flares gone.’ And I got back and that was it. And that was the last op finished.
NM: So —
CF: So, that was my time in the air force.
NM: Any more? Any more stories from your operations? Can you remember?
CF: Not really. As I say the, I think there were one on Denmark. On the atomic business they were trying to do. That’s all I know. Other than [pause] see we, we had to do the job. They never told us what it was all about. We had to keep our mouths shut. Before we took off we were searched for cigarettes. If you had cigarettes with you they were taken. Put in a bag. Because you were not allowed to fly and smoke. Not like the Americans. But in the Americans we had an, he landed because he ran out of petrol and when he saw the bomb bay he says, ‘What’s that?’ I said, ‘It’s the bomb bay.’ ‘What bombs are you carrying?’ And I told him. He said, ‘I can’t believe that aircraft can take that lot up,’ because all they had was twelve little bombs. Five hundred pounders. They flew in squares which the Jerry had under, their fighter pilots had the upward firing machine guns and they shot down more aircraft from the American Air Force because they flew in a square. And they were about twenty three thousand feet above us. And their blokes used to stand and sing and smoke. And that was my time in the air force. I really, I enjoyed it. If I’d, as I say had brothers or sisters I would have gone with one of the New Zealanders that was on our crew. Because as I said they speak English better than the Australians. Other than that, after the dismissal they give you a number. You get, you go up to Blackpool. You lose your uniform and they give you clothes, tickets back and that was it.
NM: So, so after the war you went — you say you went to Egypt.
CF: Yeah.
NM: That with a different squadron? Was it?
CF: No. That was seven. We had number 70 and 178. That was so we had three squadrons.
NM: And what were you doing in Egypt? What were the squadrons doing in Egypt?
CF: Well, looking. Well, at the time the desert was being cleared up but we weren’t used. We was waiting to be used but we were never used because those Communist blokes done their job. And as I say the last flight we’d done was to this place right at the end of where the Mediterranean finishes. And that’s where what happened to the pilot. I can’t even say it. I can’t even tell you what happened. It’s got to be kept secret.
NM: Ok.
CF: And that was my time in the air force. I really liked it. And I came back and I started work at the post office. I was forty five years in the post office. And I finished up doing forty two hours overtime every Friday. That was for forty five years because they wouldn’t accept another people. Another person taking place. And I was doing it on overtime. So that’s, and the amount of money I got I used to give to the wife. I says, ‘Help yourself to what you want.’ I left the air force. Got a job in a — they were doing shop fitting. I learned all the tools barring one and that was the one that goes around and around. Twenty thousand revs a minute. Of course my wife’s uncle he used that machine and he came home one day. His wife had died. He came home like that. No fingers. He had a little dog. And he put his head in the gas oven. Committed suicide because he couldn’t, couldn’t work.
NM: Oh dear.
CF: But other than that.
NM: So, how long were you in the Middle East?
CF: Pardon?
NM: How long were you in the Middle East with your squadrons? Because you mentioned —
CF: I went out there about five or six years.
NM: So, during that time you say you, you flew over Egypt, Iran, Iraq.
CF: Yeah.
NM: What were you actually doing though? What were these missions?
CF: Well, we were just doing, you know keeping in control of flying. We didn’t drop any bombs anywhere else. It was just a matter that what happened was when we was taking off [pause] people follow you. They track every aircraft and they, I got a message, ‘Tell your pilot to land at Truro.’ So I tell. He said, ‘Well, what have we got at Truro?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. Ask them.’ Of course when we got there we had to change the aircraft from black to white. And that was it. And we just, we went by train to Cairo. Quite nice. Come back on the train. All the women had their tits out in front of us feeding their kids. That was the way they carried on. But now look at them. Fighting one another. But other than that that was my time in the air force. And up there is quite a few things if you’d like to see. I’ve got plenty of them around there but the most information you’ll see at the end. Come up the end and I’ll show you.
NM: Yeah.
CF: Yeah.
NM: Yeah. We’ll do that at the end shall we?
CF: Eh?
NM: We’ll do that at the end.
CF: Do it again.
NM: So, since you left the air force have you, did you go to any reunions with the squadrons?
CF: Yeah. I go once a month to an Aircrew Association in Hemel Hempstead. And everybody there, well the majority of them were all on Lancaster bombers. But there is a bloke there. He’s in charge. He used to fly the Queen about. But other than that I don’t know what he’d done otherwise. Sometimes we have letters with other unions aircraft. ACA blokes. But you’ve got to pay about twenty pound. And I’ve got no car now so I have to rely on Rod to take me anywhere. So, other than that I had a very good time in it. I didn’t [pause] I liked it and as I say if I’d had brothers and sisters I might have stayed in. I might have got a commission. But as I say I came out as a warrant officer. It’s unusual.
NM: When you, when you look back at your time in Bomber Command.
CF: Yeah.
NM: What’s your main thoughts?
CF: Main source?
NM: Thoughts. What do you think about your time in Bomber Command?
CF: I thoroughly enjoyed it. You know, it was a job we had to do. So as I say I was glad I’d done what I had to do. We went up to Gatow and Berlin was absolutely flat. And this boy, this girl, I says, ‘Are you hungry?’ And we’d opened up a [unclear] club there. So she says, I brought them out, she said, ‘Do you want anything?’ Because it wasn’t the Russians that invaded. It was the Mongols. Because one of them told me and he saw my watch. He said, ‘Can I have that?’ I said, ‘No.’ He had thirteen watches up his arm. He couldn’t wind them up. Didn’t know how to wind them up. And that was in Gatow. And from there I just came out and that was it.
NM: So what were you doing in Berlin? Was that —
CF: We was checking. You know. See what we’d done.
NM: So this was —
CF: We was given that permission to do. And as I say it was absolutely flat and they got a big sign. It goes up. And there’s a big thing on it and it comes down and that was the only thing that was left standing. And that was at the end of Gatow. A place called Gatow. But after that I did, I loved it in the air force. I got, I’m keen on flying but nowadays we go on what they called Project Propeller. And little aircraft like up at, just up the road there used to fly all the people. You’d go to a certain airport like all the along the coast. Various airports. You had, all land, you had about three hundred aircraft there and you find your people from the ACA there as well. So, as I say yesterday I went back to the [pause] and they all clapped when they see me coming in because I’ve been in hospital for eight weeks with this all caused by a blood clot. And that’s my stories.
NM: Ok.
CF: If you’ve got it recorded.
NM: Well, we have.
CF: I hope you have.
NM: We have.
CF: So, as I say, if you come down the end I’ll show you the stuff there.
NM: Before we do that —
CF: Yeah.
NM: Can we go right back to the beginning and tell me about your childhood? Where did you grow up? What was your school like? What did you do before the air force?
CF: Well, at school there was seven classes. You do it one at a time. Nine out of ten if you was on the last lot at fourteen if you’d done anything wrong you got a cane. And that school was in Westminster Bridge Road.
NM: In —
CF: Yeah. And I got a cane pretty often. But, and as I say after I left it was a long time before I told my wife that I’d been in the air force and she says, ‘What’s it like? Flying.’ I says, ‘Alright. Let’s go on holiday.’ Of course they’d changed over to jets. And it was the first jet I ever saw landed in Camden Town at the end of the road where I had to go and identify her husband’s body. That was my wife’s mother. And I identified him and then we was living, we had our own place and she used to come up. I had a nice fire going and she would, counted her money. And Vin came in, says, ‘For Christ’s sake mum stop counting that money.’ She says, ‘It’s my money.’ So Vin says, ‘If you keep on counting it — well she got into a sort of a dementia. And she put her out of the way and from then on we was just on our own. We used to have three holidays a year. One in May, June, September and we used to go to Seaton in the caravan. We had that for a few years. But as I say after fifty eight years she died and that was it. Heart attack. I would never go for another woman.
NM: Right.
CF: No.
NM: Ok.
CF: No. I always said that. You hear people like our Geoff who was one of the blokes in the ACA he has, his wife died. He got another girl. They, they lived together. Didn’t marry. She run away. Leaving him. Another girl. She’s now left him. That was it.
NM: Why don’t we go up there and —
CF: Yes.
NM: You can talk me.
CF: Yeah.
NM: Tell me about the things.
CF: Yeah.
NM: On the wall. Is that alright? Are you alright?
CF: Yeah.
NM: Right.
[pause]
CF: Well, first of all that was painted by my wife. This thing is the Manna Operation where we dropped the food.
NM: Tell me a bit about that.
CF: We’d done about four trips at fifty feet. That was what I used to do. And there’s all the crew. And that’s my warrant.
NM: Your warrant for —?
CF: Yeah.
NM: For what? Tell me about the trips. The Manna trips.
CF: Eh?
NM: What was it like on the Manna trips over Holland?
CF: Well, the Germans said five hundred feet. We said no. Fifty feet. Because all the stuff would have opened up. And they had their planes waiting if you dropped them too low. We dropped them and took off again. You kept flying. We was low flying. That’s one of the, what you had, what the pilot had to do training. Low flying. And as you see that’s what it’s all about. That was my signaller’s badge. That’s the wireless operator’s badge. That was the crew. And that was what I used to do. That was more wanted than what the others wanted.
NM: Charles is showing me a photograph of a wireless operator in a Lancaster.
CF: Yeah.
NM: So did your crew stay together for the whole of your time?
CF: Yeah. Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. But as I say well that’s me. That was a flight engineer. He was a pilot. He trained in Canada with Harry. But that was the pilot. Where is he? He’s there. And there’s, he’s from Birmingham. The other two were in Scotland.
NM: You said you had some New Zealanders on the crew as well.
CF: Eh?
NM: People from New Zealand.
CF: Yeah.
NM: On the crew.
CF: No. We, we was an all, well English and Scotch. I did a training in Bishops Court for a certain thing to do. Was too. We went, four of us wireless operators went into town and the police, they had rifles. Stopped us going. They said, ‘You’re in uniform.’ That was when the IRA was pelting them. Other than that that’s my seat. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
NM: Very good.
CF: We went and I saw Prince Edward. I had all them on. He, I went up and I said, ‘Hello Prince Edward. How are you? I’m Charlie Flint,’ so and so squadron. He said, ‘I’ve only got three medals.’ And I’ve got a photo of him over there.
NM: So, when did you meet Prince Edward?
CF: When, met him in the Guildhall on the seventy fifth anniversary of the RAF. Yeah. And the only other bloke there was Geoff. One of our blokes. And they supplied us with food. But there’s another one when I was in my battledress.
NM: Did you keep in touch with your crew after the war?
CF: Yeah. I’m still in touch with only Harry. We’re the only two left.
NM: Ok.
CF: I’ve been up to his place several times when I had a car. But now I use the phone. And he doesn’t know, he didn’t even know what the AC was. There’s nothing like that where he lives in Hampshire. So other than that nothing. Otherwise as you see there’s planes all around the place.
NM: So, did you, did you have reunions with the aircrew?
CF: Yeah.
NM: After the war.
CF: Yeah.
NM: You had. You met up with the crew after the war, did you?
CF: Yeah. As I say there’s only the two of us left. But otherwise if I had, as I say brothers or sisters I might have got a commission and stayed in. But as it is I came out as a warrant officer and I thought well if I get fed up staying here I can join the Beefeaters what the Queen has. Because they’re all ex-servicemen. But they’re like warrant officers, sergeants and corporals but they’re all on different levels. But would I, would I be accepted?
NM: We’ll just pause it there, I think.
CF: Yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
NM: Turn the tape recorder back on.
CF: Yeah.
NM: So tell us about the time —
CF: I was —
NM: In the auxiliary air force — in the fire service.
CF: Yeah. I was with a bloke. He’d only got a wooden leg. And we had to listen for the air raid sirens and inform the headquarters where we trained. And they used to do a show every Wednesday. People used to go and watch them. How the, how the firemen got rid of flames and everything.
NM: So, this was before the RAF.
CF: Yeah.
NM: And where was this? Where were you doing this?
CF: Yeah. That was, that was 1939. All that stuff. When the war started.
NM: But whereabouts were you? Where were you based? Living.
CF: Well, I was living in a place called Campbell Buildings. And there was five blocks there.
NM: Was this in London?
CF: In London. Yeah. I went to Westminster School. I even joined the Cubs. And my mum and dad used to go to their relations and I come out one day it was pouring with rain. They didn’t give me a key to get in so I had to go about five miles to this place. Knock on the door, ‘What are you doing soaking wet?’ ‘Because you didn’t give me a key.’ ‘Oh.’ From then on I had my own key. Yeah.
Other: Where was Campbell Buildings.
CF: Eh?
Other: Where was Campbell Buildings?
CF: Oh they was just off the Westminster Bridge Road. The Bakerloo Line. Lambeth.
NM: So, were you in the Auxiliary Fire Service during the Blitz?
CF: Yeah.
NM: So, you were heavily involved in fire fighting during the Blitz.
CF: Yeah.
NM: Tell me. Tell me a bit about that.
CF: Well, there was not much really because we was only there if the Fire Brigade, you know they had a box you used to push, break open. That called them. You didn’t have to tell them where you are because the box was numbered and they knew where to come. So all the fire stations had these boxes. They were all over the country. But now they don’t use them. It’s a 999 call for them now.
NM: But what was it like fighting fires during the Blitz?
CF: Oh, it was murder for them really because if you look at the damage that was done. Fortunately, the only bomb that landed on our roof was a little one. A fire one. But I kicked it off the roof. That was the only one we had. But all along the docks over the side of the River Thames they were all alight and of course the Germans were bombing there. But when the alarm went all the people went down the tube station. And the Tube still kept running. When the alarm went off again, the clear, everybody moved. Eventually it finished up that they put in beds for the kids and they stayed there all night. And the trains were still going. But it wasn’t a nice place. As I say I got a job as a paper boy. And the bloke says, ‘You’re stealing off me.’ I said, ‘I’m not.’ He said, ‘You are.’ I said, ‘Right. You will never have another paperboy.’ He said, ‘I will.’ I told all the boys, ‘Don’t go papers delivering for him. He calls you a liar.’ He had to shut his shop up. But other than that as I say it was, what was it? Oh, I’d left school. Got this job in [unclear] State Railways. And three days later they shut down. So I had to go down to a place in, just off Queen’s Park — no. Green Park. And it was a disused tube station. So I worked there quite some time and one day I said to them, ‘I’ve been accepted for the Royal Air Force now.’ From then on. That’s how it begun.
NM: Excellent. Let’s just, let’s just have a look through your logbook shall we?
CF: Yeah. Have a look.
[recording interrupted]
CF: Finished. We went to Egypt and that was 70 and 178 Squadrons then.
NM: And that was your whole crew —
CF: Yeah.
NM: Went with you.
Other: Osborne. He was one of your regulars wasn’t he?
CF: Eh?
Other: Osborne. Wasn’t he one of your regulars?
CF: No.
Other: No.
CF: No.
Other: I thought he was.
CF: You’ll see the names of the crew on there.
Other: I can see you were a sergeant. Osborne another one. It was Geoff Osborne. Geoff Osborne was the guy. He was one of your regulars.
CF: Who was the navigator?
Other: It doesn’t. Oh, someone called Hough. Sergeant Hough. H O U G H.
CF: Houghs. Yeah
Other: What’s his name? Hough.
CF: I didn’t always know at the time. It’s only in that book. Or that page.
Other: Ok.
CF: No. That was all the crew that that was on.
Other: Yeah. But this is, this is on your plane. 696.
CF: Yeah. Very —
NM: So, tell me again. You came home from Egypt.
CF: Eh?
NM: You came back from Egypt and flew into Cornwall. Tell me about the trip home.
CF: I was at, that was because I went to Cornwall before. I went. On the 1st of May we was having our overcoats because they used to have a stick making sure your overcoat was conformed and the officer said, ‘You’re sweating. Why?’ I said, ‘I don’t know.’ I’d got pneumonia. I was off for about a week. They sent me, they said, ‘Anywhere you can go?’ I said, ‘Yeah. I’ve got a place down in Ottery St Mary.’ They gave me the tickets. They said, ‘Come back in a week.’ Gave me another chit back to Ottery St Mary and I think that time that fortnight saved my life because the way they was shooting down the aircraft at the time was really horrible. And it was a last sort of stuff. Last. When we dropped the bombs on Potsdam that finished him. That’s when he committed suicide. And we went over to Gatow and that was it. I liked to, you know see what happened but quite a few of our blokes had done the same thing.
NM: I see from your logbook that you took, did some flights to repatriate some prisoners of war.
CF: Yeah.
NM: Tell me. Tell me a bit about those.
CF: Well, we went to Juvencourt in France. And at Juvencourt — yeah that’s in France, we used to pick up twenty four people. One of the blokes I sat beside he’d been a prisoner of war. I says, ‘You’re going home?’ He said, ‘No. I’m coming back.’ I said, ‘Why?’ He said, ‘I worked on a farm and married a farmer’s daughter.’ And he said, ‘I’ve got a child.’ [laughs] A prisoner of war. Things like that, you know you can’t really believe it. And then we flew out to Italy and we got all the people back from there. That was in Italy. At a place called Bari. Where I bought three hundred, three bottles of wine. And that was, I gave them to my dad. He took them to the hotel, come back and give me seven fifty.
NM: So, were the prisoners grateful for a flight in a Lancaster home?
CF: Eh?
NM: Were the prisoners happy to see you?
CF: He was.
NM: No. No. Were the prisoners you picked up?
CF: Oh yeah.
NM: Were they?
CF: But as I say this other one he, as I say he hadn’t been put in prison because they was using prisoners to do all the gardening and stuff and he married one of the farmer’s girls. Then stayed there. The blokes I felt sorry for though was all that parachute lot that dropped. Because the Germans upwards you know because the parachutes bullets go through and the parachutes fold up. Unfortunately I never used my parachute but my daughter done a parachute drop from fourteen thousand feet. I thought she had a — I’d done it. I wished I’d have done. I would have loved to have done one. We tried. We were trained how to do it. You know, you had to land on a bar and land. And how to land. You sort of landed up and push yourself up. But as I say Sue she’s done one. And I thought of all the time I’d done flying she’s done one of them. I can’t believe it.
Other: So if I look up the Bomber Command website —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Charles Flint
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nigel Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFlintC160421, PFlintCE1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:48:17 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Flint was in the Auxiliary Fire Service in London before he joined the RAF. He volunteered and began training as a wireless operator. Part of his training took place at RAF Bishops Court in Ireland where he was advised not to go out in uniform. Charles and his crew joined 115 Squadron based at RAF Witchford. They took part in Operations Manna, Exodus and Dodge before being posted overseas.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
France
Great Britain
Italy
England--Cambridgeshire
Northern Ireland--Down (County)
Great Britain
115 Squadron
aircrew
civil defence
crewing up
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Bishops Court
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Witchford
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/147/1566/PColeC1601.1.jpg
1bf8921fe4149a2ba534e67eb3ce33db
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/147/1566/AColeC150727.2.mp3
dc94a957b0efc83699d429a24c84684d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cole, Colin
C Cole
Colin Cole
Description
An account of the resource
31 items. The collection relates to Warrant Officer Colin Cole (1924 – 2015 RAF Volunteer Reserve 1605385) who served with 617 Squadron. The collection contains two oral history interviews his, logbook, service documents, medals, memorabilia from the Tirpitz and six photographs.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Six items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties or to comply with intellectual property regulations. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-27
2015-07-27
Identifier
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Cole, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: This is Nigel Moore interviewing Colin Cole on the 27th of July. So, we’re at Colin’s address in, in -
Other: Willan House in Stainfield.
NM: Thank you very much. And Colin’s starting to look through a box of his, his photographs and other, other documents.
CC: Yes I’m just trying, I remember, I remember showing these you know
Other: ‘Cause there’s all sorts of
CC: Probably one of the oldest ones at Willan (?) and, yes.
Other: Take it out of the box Colin.
CC: Sorry?
Other: We’ll take out of this box the ones that are pertaining to the Lancaster like that one which is obviously a picture of you with it. Ok?
NM: So what we’ll do, in the end is I’ll inform the people at the Bomber Command Centre that all this documentation is available and if they want to scan it
Other: Yeah.
NM: They will contact Colin separately.
Other: Right.
NM: And they’ll be informed and we’ll get them to contact Colin directly.
Inaudible
NM: Is Colin’s logbook in there?
Other: No it’s in the safe.
NM: OK. It’s a very valuable document.
Other: That’s you with some twins. You carry on and I’ll have a quick look through and grab the ones
NM: Well no it’s going to make a noise and it’ll catch on the
Other: Oh right
NM: We need to sort of try and catch pure form of Colin’s voice. So what I suggest is that we conduct the interview.
Other: Do you want me to look through this at a separate time then?
NM: Yeah I think so.
Other: I think
NM: That might be better yes. I would, sort of trying to do it at random right now. ‘Cause what we’re trying to get is, is mostly Colin’s voice.
Other: Right.
NM: These, these recordings I know are very sensitive. We practice with them and you can pick up.
Other: In that case Colin we’ll go through these later on.
CC: Oh righto, yes. Ok.
Other: And I shall disappear.
NM: I wouldn’t mind looking at Colin’s logbook later if that’s alright.
Other: Right.
NM: But we’ll
Other: And we’ve got his medals and things like that as well.
NM: Yes I’d like to look at those as well, absolutely. I appreciate your help.
Other: I’ll leave that lot down there.
CC: Yeah ok.
NM: Right, so you’ve had lunch haven’t you Colin? Everything’s
Other: Yeah.
NM: Ready to
Other: Just waiting for the beach party this afternoon.
NM: Alright, thanks very much for your help.
Other: See you later. Call If you want anything, just press the yellow button.
NM: Ok. Oh right, fine, brilliant. Thank you very much indeed.
So, hello again Colin and thank you for seeing me again. Can you hear me all right?
CC: Just yeah.
NM: Ok I’ll speak up. What I’d, what I’d like to do
CC: Yes that’s better
NM: You’re ok with that? What I’d like to do Colin is, is ask you a series of very simple questions and you can just talk to me about your life, your experiences and just, just as, as you remember it. Is that alright? Are you happy to do that?
CC: Yes, if I can go back far enough [laughs].
NM: Well if you can brilliant. Ok, well, we’ll just, as it comes alright.
CC: Yes.
NM: So, so tell me a bit about your very early life up to the age of eighteen.
CC: Ahum.
NM: So what about your upbringing and childhood?
CC: Right. Let’s think now. What’s
[Pause]
CC: My upbringing and childhood as a, sort of, very young days, from what I can remember, this is going back, getting a bit old now isn’t it? It’s, yes what can I, what I can remember of it is that my father worked for WH Smith and Sons and which meant that we were, we were all up and running and the irons going and everything else. He had a pretty good job so it was that year and subsequent years, I mean we weren’t rich but I was quite well off you know. We had a comfortable childhood. And when I say an early life I mean, it’s life. We had breakfast at about seven o’clock in the morning you know because of his work, you know. He used to go and we had contacts with the railway which I suppose would be the, the most sort of idea of the, of my childhood you know.
So I had an interest in railways and all that sort of thing going, going to that. And childhood in those days, which in those days, was you know I had a good childhood. Sort of well brought up and, you know, tried to bring you up one thing and another and from that point of view, you know, it was a long time ago you see because I’m now what past my 101th birthday which, and you’re talking about an awful long time ago and the sort memories that, you know that, I did have memories of early train life ‘cause we went around various stations where he was manager and all that sort of thing and I wasn’t concerned with newspapers they were dull and mystery things. So, and had a jolly good time sort of looking at railways how they were formed and you know what they provided and all that sort of thing. I suppose that really was the early, it was not particularly connected with the RAF at all you know, sort of that was something which came along later I suppose you could say
NM: What about school days?
CC: Sorry
NM: What about school days? Your schooling?
CC: Schooling. I, I was at Twickenham. My dad was so, ‘cause I was as well cause we moved around various counties you know sort of and places and that but, yeah Twickenham was school time. Yes it was. I was more or less brought up in Twickenham so yeah it was just an ordinary sort of classroom membership at the time I suppose. Can’t think of anything else that I thought that was different from anybody else’s you know, sort of, learn the sort of tables and all that sort of thing, generally worked our way through to the various classrooms you know and that sort of thing and that was it you know.
NM: What age were you when you left school and what did you do straight after school?
CC: I, I, ages, age when I left school was a customary age was at fourteen, no fifteen. There was always
[background noises].
CC: [unclear]
NM: So Colin you were saying about leaving school at fifteen?
CC: [unclear] Fifteen [laughs]
NM: So what did you do after you left school?
CC: Yes and generally speaking at that time of the year you know, that time of my career such as it was you know sort of just had to take what everybody else took, you know, sort of. Oh dear, what can I say. Just, just really the usual customary schooling, you know. Sang the class tune in every class whatever it was, fourteen, fifteen, you know, so and, nothing very out of the ordinary.
NM: But after school when you left school, Colin, after, after you left aged fifteen what did you do?
CC: Well funnily for a short time I, one of the managers at WH Smith’s from London you know he persuaded Dad to enlist me in WH Smith and Sons so I had a job straightaway, you know. There was no question about that you know. I was always keen to get it right and keen for, to do the job right, you know, sort of thing and which made it easy going if you know what I mean, yeah. It was [unclear]. Now, when, I was trying to think when war started. 1940 was it?
[pause]
I can’t remember. Can you? [laugh]
NM: So tell me how you
CC: It’s a bit of a mix up you know, sort of. I don’t think anybody’s ever asked me that question before, any questions before and I’m afraid my memory’s not as good as it might be if you know what I mean. Sort of summarise and general sort of glance of it you know. Nobody’s really asked me anything about it you know.
NM: So tell me how you came to join the RAF?
CC: Ahh now of course aero, aeroplanes were new and, you know, exciting and all the rest of it, you know and yes I wanted to join the RAF and, and my father said well he wouldn’t stop me you know so, so really, I was trying to think now what I know I was, let me get this right when I was
[pause]
I was eighteen I think when I first joined or put in to join the RAF. Went for examination and one thing and another, both physical and, sort of, more physical than anything else I suppose you know sort of to see if I was fit you know. I had a two day sort of what’s the name to sort of make sure I was ok you know and one thing and another and yes got the ok and that was it. Oh what did the, what, dear oh dear [laughs] funny isn’t it when you go to go back you know.
[pause]
All I can really say I suppose was there was, there was always a job available you know, sort of thing which was what my parents wanted to make sure that I’d got, you know, you have pay from a very early age you know a few pence a week sort of keep going and one thing and another like that and I was just quite happy about it and just feet up you know and there wasn’t much else I can say outstanding.
NM: So when you, when you joined the RAF how did you go into the wireless operator/air gunner route as opposed to any of the other routes. Tell me a little about that.
CC: That, the wireless operator/air gun, well not the air gunner bit because that fell in to the, I was keener at doing the wireless bit. If you went in for a wireless operator you always had - there was always wireless operator stroke air gunner, because if you look at the setup of the crew, and one thing and another the wireless operator was farther back as, as any of the crew but from the pilot and that would be, and they, it was the wireless operator that took over from the air gunner if he was shot down or shot at that sort of thing. So it was really the wireless operator that I was, I was keen on.
The reason of going in for that I suppose really would be that I thought if it was sort of idealistic move you know that if you could do Morse, Morse code and one thing and another and oh and in the first place I joined the, what was the
[pause]
What oh dear trying to think of the word now, joined as a - you know - oh a cadet. You sort of, you had a peacetime job and you had a part in the RAF, you know, that you could take part in, you know, which gave you a better chance of getting into the RAF that you wouldn’t normally have got, you know. And we had a chappie that was he, he was retired then and he took tuition over to cadets you know and was talking and teaching them and that sort of thing and he was a master well mastermind in - what’s the name - you know, sort of, what’s the name of, what’s the name, Morse code you know and the thing I can remember mostly was that I sat in that, sat in that hearing him doing Morse code you know and he was trying to see, to sort of teach people Morse and that sort of thing and I can always think oh I can do that you know. I don’t know why but anyway I thought I could do and it turned out that I could, you know. I easily learned Morse code and one thing and another and I was keen you know on doing that sort of thing. And naturally when I was what eighteen and called up, sort of permanent RAF, went in for sort of wireless operator which I got, you know.
There was a quite lot of what shall we say you know you had quite a job to get into the RAF then. There was a lot of, all the kids used to, you know, it was always like wow sort of (cough) pardon me. You know, you was in the RAF and could fly an aircraft and all that sort of thing which was always new about that time and you know not everyday sort of stuff and, you know, you were looked at. That’s how I got in the RAF. You know, went in for examinations and all that and passed that and it was just a job you know and that’s how I got in the RAF.
NM: Tell me a little bit about the training you had to go through before you went operational. What was your training like?
CC: Well then you, then you went into training once they accepted you. You had a preliminary course which we did nothing else but you stood to attention and stood at ease and all, all the, I don’t know, the job and one thing and another. You didn’t start doing Morse code although I could do it, you know, sort of thing, since I was - the fact that I could do it made absolutely sure that you know I could get it you know but that didn’t come to the second half of the, when they started. Then they, you took the wireless set oh you know sort of a tin box thing you know, sort of thing. I’m talking now, from what I can remember, you know, sort of thing it’s, it’s long, long since this is and yeah got three, it was a three month course which I passed, passed quite easily you know and, sort of and then once you passed the ground staff they wanted me to, one thing I do remember they wanted me to stay in the RAF but the chappie that was teaching all this stuff coming through which I was at, where was I at the time, I’m trying to think. I was around the, oh – Yatesbury that was, there was a big tour at Yatesbury - would I like to stay on as, as an instructor you see, So, which, no I wouldn’t, I wanted to fly in the end, you know so I turned that down and then they sent you, the thing at Yatesbury was like a two sided thing you know if they wanted you as air crew you went along one side and if ground crew you went on the other. So I got on aircrew and just went on and trained on and on you know.
I can’t think of anything of, [pause] nothing’s, nothing sort of I could really talk about. It was all straightforward you know. Take it from there onwards, you know. The difficult things was up until then had a memory in the head you know and that was it you know sort of joining the RAF and end of story you know and got one or two bits and pieces and I tried to remember I’m sure I missed some but
NM: How far into your training did you meet your crew? At what point in your training did you meet your crew?
CC: What trying sorry.
NM: At what point did you meet up with the rest of your crew? John Leavitt and the rest of your crew?
CC: Oh right, John Leavitt and, and crew yeah. Where did we, (pause) well I guess [pause] I know they made up crews over there , now then [pause], [laughs] have a biscuit [laughs]
[pause]
CC: I’m trying to [unclear]
[pause]
CC: Yeah the thing that I do remember that was different if you like, as I say, was we formed up with a crew and John Leavitt was American. He’d been, he was older then we were you know. Two or three, four years older than what we were as normally pilots would be you know and so we - I was trying to think where we were sort of formed up as a crew.
[pause]
Do you know, I can’t really think. Nobody’s ever asked me these question before. It’s one of those things that, you know, what do you tell somebody well not what tell them what do you tell the truth yeah that’s what I want to try and do. Oh dear.
NM: Can you tell me something about the rest of your, the rest of the crew?
CC: Well the rest of the crew well yeah we, there were two gunners posted. Rear gunner and the, and the mid upper gunner they who we who have we got, we’ve got
[pause]
There was what, seven of us altogether wasn’t there? There was two gunners, myself as wireless operator we were called wireless operator/air gunner because we, we first of all had to take a sort of short flying trip you know as a sort of be able to shoot down somebody else which I never used. We never had any trouble with losing a member of the crew or anything like that you know it was quite straight, more or less straightforward, you know.
[pause]
What else can I tell you?
[Pause]
CC: You see we didn’t run into any particular trouble.
NM: So
CC: So it’s all rather
NM: So after you were crewed up you were posted to 617.
CC: 617 at
NM: Squadron
CC: Yeah. What’s the name of it? Yeah, see now where
NM: Tell me a little about life on 617 at Woodhall Spa.
CC: Err
NM: What was life like?
CC: I was at Woodhall Spa yes.
NM: So tell me about squadron life?
CC: Tell you about?
NM: What was your experience of serving with 617 squadron at Woodhall Spa? Just tell me what you remember.
CC: Well I sort of remember, you know, sort of meeting with the lads that I hadn’t met before, you know, one thing and, oh dear.
[pause]
I’m trying to think if there was something different and there wasn’t really. It was, you know, sort of quite straightforward and we got along alright together if you know what I mean. We didn’t see much of the gunners (?) until we went on ops you know and
[pause]
CC: That sort of, putting on operation, that’s when you sort of formed up at Woodhall Spa if you know what I mean, you know. Nothing, nothing outstanding you know sort of thing and
[pause]
CC: And we, we never, once we were a flying team if you like call it that you know it was, it was nothing untoward about it you know. We were sort of flying on operations, you know so.
NM: So what operations can you remember?
CC: I remember, well I was, well of course I remember Tirpitz operation of course
NM: Tell me about that.
[pause]
CC: From what I remember about the Tirpitz operation it was we, it was a very long trip on a Sunday morning that when, well we had one or two goes at that you know, sort of thing. The final one - we sort of, sort of, what can I say about it. Now once we’d flown over, dropped the bombs and away for home as quick as you can you know sort of thing [cough] but and we were just passing over the - just dropped bombs and one thing I can remember and others would remember as well that our rear gunner, he’d gone to the back of the plane you see ‘cause normally when, when we took the final run over the operating aircraft or forward of the aircraft he came towards the front you know sort of anyway he ran over the back of it and he, because it was a special op he kept an eye on the what’s the, on the operation and we, we all remember him saying that he was looking down and he says “Oh” he says, used to call him skipper, always called the pilot, “Oh skip” he said “We’ve hit the bugg, hit the” and everybody cheered [laughs] so I thank God for that sort of, you know and that was that, you know. I remember that part.
[pause]
CC: There was one other I can’t remember where it was when we went to it, we were only talking about it the other week you know, sort of, I’m trying to remember the name of the place we went to. It was in the Baltic, you know, in that area. And what was I going to say about it? Oh it took place on the, on the 13th of April and I said oh this is [laughs] oh we didn’t do anything with it because it clouded over you know, kind of thing but we went on the op you know and had a look at it and one thing and another I did remark that it was my twenty first birthday. Nothing very exciting. I thought it was for me but, you know
[pause]
There really wasn’t anything sort of very exciting about the whole thing, you know. Nobody was shot down or anything like that, you know.
[pause]
I can’t think of anything else.
NM: Was the
CC: I’d rather leave the questions to you.
NM: That’s fine. That’s what I’m here for Colin.
CC: Yes.
NM: When you served on 617 did it feel like a special squadron to you? Did it feel like a main line, main force squadron?
CC: It just felt like a main line you know sort of thing you know. Nothing you know, nothing, nothing particularly special. I mean, in all the, all the operations we took part on that were sort of special if you know what I mean, you know. We realised that, you know, so, but not really, no. 617 was, I probably couldn’t have told you then what the squadron number was if you know what I mean, you know, sort of thing but it didn’t have a particular ring about it, you know. Sort of, just, yes 617 squadron which just happened to be 617 I think, you know.
NM: The fact they trusted you with bombs like Tallboy and Grand Slam - did it feel different to any of the other squadrons?
CC: Oh what they, when they, sort of aye they did, did carry the extra bomb wasn’t it? That was right yes. Took it all in its, all in its day you know. Never thought of it as anything very special if you know what I mean. You know, just another wartime thing that had gone on if you know what I mean, you know, that sort of -nothing, nothing very special about - there was a, when I get hold of the air book there was - I mean there was a date in there that I can’t remember what it was now but nothing particularly special. No, not really ‘cause we weren’t shot down or anything like that you know. We were
[pause]
CC: No, can’t think of anything that’s
NM: What was it, what was it like as an NCO rather than an officer? ‘Cause the officers were all at the Petwood but what was it like for you as an NCO on Woodhall Spa?
CC: Well the funny part was that, that we only saw the officers on operations. There was, you know, like they were sort of, [unclear] what’s the name quartered in the quarters, you know, sort of thing and we, we were the bottom end of 617 squadron if you know what I - nobody bothered, sort of thing. All our nights out were always NCOs and all that sort of thing, you know, sort of thing. Very, only very, very seldom - I think one was at the beginning - one was at the, one of them, the war was, we went and had a few pints on the fact the war was over you know, sort of thing like that and we all went together, you know. It was the most unusual thing of the, of the lot, you know. They used to do their own thing and we used to do our own thing. We used to go into sort of various civilian places and you know sort of do them, them bits and pieces out of duty if you know what I mean, yeah. I can’t think of anything very exciting you know. I was trying to, you know, I was trying to
NM: So how about after, after the war finished and, what happened to 617 and you at that point?
CC: So we more or less, apart from when we met up to either do a practice operation or something like that did we see everybody, you know. It was just [pause] sorry. No one has ever asked me before and I can’t think of anything that was, there was nothing very exciting about it.
NM: Tell me a little about the Tiger Force.
CC: Oh the Tiger Force. Yeah well of course that was special you know. That, if there was one thing I did do funnily enough that somebody grabbed the, sort of, the photographs of that. While we were flying out to the east you know, sort of thing I had a camera, only a sort of little camera you know, sort of Browning type of thing, nothing, nothing very, I took photographs of one thing and another and they are or I hope they still are, but they were in this went in sort of talked about very much later and they were, what was I going to say. I’ve forgotten what I was going to say now. Blast. Nothing, nothing very sort of special except that was, I think I gave them to the, let’s see where were we assigned [?] where? Can’t even
[pause]
CC: I’m trying to think
[pause]
CC: No can’t think I shall have to try and think about that so
NM: Can you remember what you, can you remember where you were posted when you came back from India when the Tiger Force was deployed back to the UK. What happened after that?
CC: We ended back in the slippery slopes of Cornwall actually, you know and then formed up together, you know sort of, I’m trying to think what we did next. It’s almost a question of sort of detaching the crew altogether you know. ‘Cause I think, I say that because I think from what I can recall as it had is that I thought, you know, this would be the end of us, the old form of the 617 you know, sort of, crew if you like yeah and took some pictures of it and you know and made a little write up and that. And that, it’s hanging in if you like, sort of around somewhere or other. God know where but it was brought up, where did I give it to, one of the RAF stations you know so that should still be there. Should be a sort of, ‘cause I think they made quite a thing of it sort of photographs of where we landed and where we took off and all that sort of thing. I don’t know where it is now. It should, should be alright. Is there anything? Have you come across anything or you haven’t?
NM: I’m sure someone will know.
CC: Sorry
NM: I’m sure someone will know where that is.
CC: Well they ought to. Yes, so.
NM: Were you in, I understood you were involved in the disposal of the old upkeep Dambuster mines. Can you tell me?
CC: Oh yes
NM: Something about that?
CC: I was in a different station. I was called in to, they formed up a crew you know, to get, now what did they, oh dear. I’ve got all these things you know ticking about in my mind but when it comes down to putting them into – I can’t [cough] I can’t think of them. Yes we were sort of recalled and, you know after the coming back from India, you know, sort of thing, we were recalled and then you know disposing of the mines weren’t there, sort of. That’s one of things that we just did and end of story if you know what I mean, I’m afraid.
NM: So what happened to you? What did you do with your, after you left the RAF? At what point did you leave the RAF?
CC: Now when did I leave the RAF? Well generally speaking going, going back to civvy life you know. Nothing more, nothing less you know so I worked for the [pause], all I can remember you know when I went back to civvy life and onwards like that was that I picked out or I found out that if you worked for government place of any sort they paid your, oh my God I can’t remember, pension that’s what I was trying to think. They paid your pension and I thought oh you know sort of if I kept on till pensionable age you know and that would help to retirement which it did you know tremendously so you know very much so. I’ve never paid anything else since [laughs]. Oh dear, yeah.
NM: So you worked for the local government or council?
CC: Local government. The council. Then for some reason, I can’t remember why or how it was, I became clerk to the council of - cause I was living at, I was living at Waddington then I became clerk of the council at Waddington Parish Council. I was there for quite a long time you know. Yeah. What happened after then you know, for the life of me nothing of, sort of nothing to report on. Nothing at all that was
NM: Did you keep in touch with your crew at all after the war?
CC: Yes we did for, ‘cause I went, when our skipper died which was only, not so, not so long ago you know, sort of, well don’t know how much now but time marches on doesn’t it but yes we did in parts you know but we never really sort of got together as a crew if you know what I mean, you know, sort of. It’s all very misty that one is [laughs].
NM: You were very heavily involved with the Lincolnshire Lancaster Association weren’t you?
CC: Ahh yes.
NM: Tell me.
CC: Yes, yes, yeah, yes.
[pause]
I think that was all part of parcel of sort of keeping the connection going if you know what I mean, you know, sort of.
[pause]
I don’t know whether it did any, anything to keep it going but, because I often still, when I say recently I mean alright a few years have gone passed now and since the starting years that yes that was one of the things that did keep going. I was secretary to the Lincolnshire Lancaster Association for quite some, that, and then that became for some reason just couldn’t tell you why [unclear] associate sort of thing you know but it’s just all these things kept trying along, you know. When somebody asked me and nobody ever has you know apart from, I mean, I suppose that up to in inverted commas quite recently the, you know the chairman, you know we used to keep in touch with one another and one thing and another [unclear] died now died recently but apart from that that was it, you know. So of certainly until [unclear] asked questions about it I thought the thing had sort of died and [laughs]
NM: When you, when you look back on your time at Bomber
CC: [cough] sorry [cough]
NM: Are you alright
[cough]
[pause]
CC: Pass me that [cough]
[pause]
Sorry about that. I wasn’t
NM: Don’t worry. Don’t worry
CC: Talking a lot
NM: We’ll stop in just a minute.
[pause]
CC: That’s better
[pause]
CC: Sorry What, what was the last question?
NM: I was wondering what your thoughts are when you look back on your time at Bomber Command. What are your reflections?
CC: Nothing, nothing anything particular, you know. Had to be done [cough] Oh blast. No. Took it on as part and parcel as life’s, you know. A lot of it’s, I suppose, took on, you know, I really took it on sort of well thinking about what I did through the years was really what was concerned with the war and when there wasn’t the war and all that sort of thing, you know and it was that that was leading from one sort paragraph to another if you know what I mean. Yeah.
[pause]
CC: Yeah can’t think of anything else.
NM: How do you think Bomber Command has been treated since the war?
CC: Sorry
NM: How do you think Bomber Command has been treated since the war?
CC: Oh [pause] I’ve never really thought of anything in particular you know. It was just the sort of [unclear] what they wouldn’t have done today and then tomorrow and yesterday and, you know sort of just formed and reformed and put this and put that and that just, just things that just suited them you know. I suppose there must have been things that, I can’t remember any you know, that they did or didn’t do or this that and the other. Just took them for granted that it was it’s what you get when you’re in a certain position sort of plays around with, you know.
NM: Ok Colin thanks very much we’ll
CC: I’m sorry.
NM: Shall we, shall we’ll leave it there. No, that’s absolutely fine.
CC: Yeah. Nobody, nobody’s ever really asked me before you know. I suppose when I’m in bed tonight I shall think of all sorts of things. Well I don’t think I will. You know, oh dear, I’d have liked to have been a bit more precise but I don’t really know [unclear].
[pause]
[unclear]
NM: Can you say that again Colin.
Other: What did you qualify for Colin?
NM: What did you just say Colin?
CC: The naval quite a recent one though. The naval star. Running up to the North Pole and all that sort of thing.
NM: Oh the arctic convoys.
CC: Arctic convoys. Yeah
NM: And you qualified for that because?
CC: Yes I have.
NM: Because of the Tirpitz raid?
CC: Because of the Tirpitz well mainly because of the Tirpitz raid yes
Other: The Arctic Star
CC: Yeah
NM: So you qualified for the Arctic Star because of the raid on the Tirpitz?
[pause]
NM: So you joined in 1942 at Yatesbury.
CC: Oh yes, yes I went to the flying
NM: Yeah
CC: ‘Cause they wouldn’t have us, from what I remember we wouldn’t have a flying logbook of course until we started flying
NM: So Yatesbury. Barrow in Furness.
CC: Oh Barrow in Furness yes we did a gunnery course in Barrow in Furness.
NM: Market Harborough.
CC: Market Harborough and that was what was it [unclear] one of the train for aircrew, yes. Yes.
NM: That’s where you met up with John Leavitt?
CC: Yes
NM: John Leavitt.
CC: Yes it would be, yeah.
NM: Flying Wellingtons.
[pause]
CC: That was, that what’s its name has been kicked around well not kicked around ‘cause I used to keep it in the box on the hall of the house on the, you know sort of.
[pause]
CC: I kept them close. I didn’t think there would be other but other people were worried about it and I could understand that really because I understand they fetch a lot of money you see. Whatever they are you know [laughs].
NM: There was, so that was your first operation.
CC: Sorry?
NM: That was your first operation.
CC: Oh yes it was [laughs].
NM: The Tirpitz raid.
CC: Yes [laughs]
NM: Thirteen hours. Can you remember any other of your operations?
CC: I can’t just one or two odd ones. The funny part was that we, you see because there was that one and then the ones in between weren’t all that in number because we used to have to train for a lot of them you know.
[pause]
NM: Here’s the one on your 21st birthday.
CC: Sorry?
NM: Here’s the one on your 21st birthday. It was Lutz.
CC: Oh yes, Lutzow. Lutzow, that’s right.
NM: And you didn’t fly with John Leavitt that day you drove, you flew with Flight Lieutenant Price
CC: Oh there were probably other people as well of course ahum. Yeah there was that sort of officers
[pause]
I would probably go with some with quite a number probably you know.
NM: I see you took part in Exodus, the
CC: Sorry?
NM: I see you took part in Operation Exodus to recover prisoners of war.
CC: Oh yes there was that as well ahum.
[pause]
CC: You know I forgot about, well not forgotten about but at the back of my mind.
NM: Can you remember what the prisoners of war how they reacted when they saw you or were being flown home by you?
CC: I can’t actually no. I think they were, were the most had had enough of it, you know and were glad to get back.
NM: What about the Cooks tours. Did you take some of the ground crew?
CC: What was?
NM: Did you take some of the ground crews on some of the Cooks tours of some the targets?
CC: Oh Cooks tours.
NM: Yeah
CC: Oh yeah we used to go on those didn’t we yes.
NM: Can’t remember too much about it?
[pause]
CC: No. If somebody was going to come along twenty thirty forty years later you’d more write a journal wouldn’t you. It was more or less a blinking nuisance, you know
[pause]
I’m not trying to hide anything it was just a blooming nuisance. Having to lock up a log book up oh
[pause]
NM: So Operation Guzzle. Is that when you had to dispose of the Dams mines?
CC: Operation?
NM: Guzzle?
CC: Yes it was. Ahum.
NM: Ok.
CC: Aye Guzzle ahum.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Colin Cole
Description
An account of the resource
Colin Cole was brought up and schooled at Twickenham, and worked for a time at W H Smith before joining the Royal Air Force. He trained as a wireless operator/air gunner at RAF Yatesbury and RAF Barrow in Furness. He then served with 617 Squadron, stationed at RAF Woodhall Spa and took part in the sinking of the Tirpitz. He was also involved in a number of other operations during and immediately after the war, in particular Tiger Force, Operation Exodus, Operation Guzzle and the Cook’s Tours.
Creator
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Nigel Moore
Date
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2015-08-24
Format
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01:17:44 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AColeC150727
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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England--Stainfield
England--London
England--Yatesbury
England--Waddington
England--Market Harborough
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Barrow-in-Furness
England--Lancashire
England--Leicestershire
England--Wiltshire
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Conforms To
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Pending review
617 Squadron
aircrew
Cook’s tour
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Guzzle
RAF Woodhall Spa
RAF Yatesbury
Tiger force
Tirpitz
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1154/11712/AThomasPG180302.1.mp3
5f48a36e221c6e96879ffcba1c0006cb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Thomas, Peter
P Thomas
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Peter Thomas (b. 1923, 1524026 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a navigator with 149 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Peter Thomas and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Thomas, PG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: The interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The Interviewer Is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Peter Thomas. The interview is taking place at Mr Thomas’ home at [buzz] Lincoln on Friday the 2nd of March 2018. Also in attendance is Peter Selby and Catherine Selby. Ok. Peter, what I’d like to start with is just to start with just tell me a bit about when and where you were born.
PT: Oh, I was born 26 Glenfield Road, Nelson. Are you picking that up?
MC: Yeah. That’s fine.
PT: Yeah. That’s where I was born. Nelson.
MC: When was that?
PT: 26 Glenfield Road, Nelson. There’s a lot of twenty sixes in my life and I regard them as being of good fortune. So I was born at 26 Glenfield Road, Nelson.
MC: In Lancashire.
PT: Lancashire.
MC: Yeah. What, what did your parents do?
PT: My father was a furniture manager and my mother stayed at home and she had three sons to look after. You know going to work and playing football and taking dirty washing to her, you know [laughs] from football because it was a slushy, a bit of a slushy pitch.
MC: What do you remember about your schooldays then, Peter?
PT: Oh, I liked, in contrast to my younger brother who didn’t like it I loved the school. It was Nelson Secondary School and it was just, I don’t know. I should have brought a photograph of it but it was just off the off the, off Walton Lane and it was on Oxford Road. So From Glenfield Road you went there, there and on Oxford Road and there behold. And in recent times, it was built in 1927 and the headmaster was a very strict man. He was. He was mad on getting people through. He was only interested in getting through, people through matriculation as it was then. So, I went there at in 1934 and I was about eleven.
MC: Yeah. And how old were you when you left school?
PT: When I left school?
MC: How old were you?
PT: 1940.
MC: Were you sixteen?
PT: Yeah. Sixteen or seventeen. Yeah.
MC: So what was your first job then when you left school? What did you do after you left school?
PT: When I was, I always had a, had a flair for writing. Not clever stuff. Just writing. Copy anything. And I went for a job at the Marsden Building Society but just when that came up there was another one in the Treasurer’s Department and I thought oh that’s my, that’s what I want. So I went to, I had an interview, borrowed my brother’s overcoat because it was a very small one and got through this interview and I think it was fortuitous that this interview the chap I interviewed or the gentleman I interviewed was Harry Crabtree and he was the, he was one of the old school treasurers. He’d got to the stage when he was back, he was a deputy treasurer but he was conveniently bypassed from the treasurer [Hyram] Reed who was a Geordie. Very clever man and he bypassed Harry Crabtree and came around to Steve Dyson. He was, he was the chief accountant and Steve [pause] was to do with [pause] Steve but there’s a funny little story about Harry Crabtree. He said, I was a junior at that time and he said, ‘Are you busy, Peter?’ And I said, ‘Well, no more than usual.’ Because I worked behind the counter and I also did another job which was ancillary to the ledgers that were being prepared and, ‘No,’ I said, ‘What do you want?’ ‘Just come into my office.’ So I got in to his office and the whole floor was covered with disused envelopes and he had a, he had a pile of new envelopes, new stick ons and we spent the afternoon sticking these temporary covers on these envelopes which was a bit strange for a deputy treasurer. But he was, I think they gave him, I think the only job that he got was I think he did loans. Something like that. Something that was really not, not responsible. The main man was [Hyram] Reed who came from the northeast. He was a Geordie and he was a clever man. And Steve Dyson, he was the chief accountant.
MC: So you worked there until you got, the you joined the —
PT: Eh?
MC: You worked there ‘til you joined the Air Force did you?
PT: Yes. Yes. I did.
MC: When did you join?
PT: I was there ‘til 1943.
MC: How old were you then?
PT: I was twenty then.
MC: Twenty.
PT: Yeah.
MC: So you —
PT: Well, I was born in 1923. So twenty. Yeah.
MC: So you joined the Air Force at twenty.
PT: I joined in nineteen [pause] Well, I joined in 1943 and I had to wait to go in. I wasn’t called up ‘til twelve months after.
MC: You were called up were you?
PT: Yeah. Well, I’d, I’d actually joined when I was about eighteen or nineteen. I can’t just remember the date.
MC: So, did you volunteer for aircrew then?
PT: Oh yes. Well, I’d had a little hiatus as it were and I, my, my friend was joining the Navy and I thought I’d have a go at the Fleet Air Arm and of course I didn’t get accepted because the gentlemen, there were these guys with the old, you know they were old sweats of, of the Navy. And they had bother with the, and one of them produced two, two aircraft and he said, ‘What’s this?’ and ‘What’s this?’ And I didn’t know because the gentleman in Nelson who was crazy to go in the Air Force and be a navigator he was a newly appointed headmaster at [unclear] Senior School. And because I wasn’t able to stay at the Primary School I’d been sent down and there was only me that went there. I can’t know why. But I went down to this Senior School, and I did twelve months and conveniently failed the scholarship again so, to go to the Grammar School. So anyway, I sat an entrance exam to the Grammar School and I was top of that school. Of that class. There were thirty and Francis Myers who was the temporary headmaster said, ‘Peter Thomas.’ So I stood up and he said, ‘You did rather well in arithmetic. We’ve got a place for you in the scholarship class.’ So having failed the scholarship exam twice I finished up in this scholarship class and it was very interesting, you know. Of course, it swelled my head a bit. Consequently, at the first exam at Christmas I was twenty nine out of thirty. That really shook me so after that I was never out of ten. I was always usually in the first five or six in the class in the exams and we were going to sit, we should have been able to sit for the [pause] for the school whatever exam it was but the, they introduced a remove over a year where we had to wait another year. So instead of it being a four year to, to matriculation if that’s the right word we had to wait ‘til, they called it five remove and I was in, in that situation with, with a lot of brainy fellas actually.
MC: That’s why you finished up at —
PT: In fact, there was only one fella —
MC: Yeah.
PT: In that class who managed to get in to the A Section and he was studying to be a doctor and he was KS Oate, of [unclear] Road, Nelson.
MC: My word.
PT: Yeah.
MC: What a memory.
PT: Sorry.
MC: Yeah. So what you, so you joined the Air Force say in ’43. Where did you first go when you joined up?
PT: Well, when I joined up I went to RAF Waddington and I think it was RAF Waddington I got, that’s when I —
MC: No. You did your basic. Where did you do your basic training?
PT: I went, I went to London to do to be accepted because you had the eye tests and hearing and eyes and curiously my friend who’d rode a motorbike he, when we came back I said, ‘How did you go on Milton?’ And he said, and he said, ‘They failed me.’ He said, ‘They failed me on eyes.’ He said, ‘I’ve, was riding my motorbike without goggles. I’ve altered the focal length of my eyes.’ So he was, so he said, ‘I’m going to be a despatch rider in the Army.’ He said, ‘I’ve finished with the Air Force.’ And he went back to his uncle who had a bakery and curiously enough he never got called up. He just worked in this bakery and he, he owned it eventually and that was that was my friend Milton Fothergill.
MC: Yeah. But you went to London and that was —
PT: I went to London.
MC: Aircrew Reception Centre.
PT: Pardon?
MC: Aircrew Reception Centre.
PT: Yes.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I went to London. And then from London I went to Paignton. That was ITW. ITW at Paignton. I was there four or five months and from there when I’d passed out of there we didn’t, we were at the Singer Estate and we did running and sport. And we had a fellow called Chang and he was a, he was a guy who wanted to drive you to kingdom come in running through this Singer Estate. And there was also a boxing ring you know but I didn’t get involved with that I can assure you. No. I’m not a boxer. Anyway, from, from Paignton we moved to [pause] I moved to Cambridge and I did four, twelve hours flying on Tiger Moths but I was, I was a bit unlucky. The first two hours the chap was an Australian pilot. A trainer. A teacher and he said ‘Oh, we’re not going to have any bother with you are we?’ And he came the next day and he said, he said, ‘I’ve been posted.’ He said, ‘I’m so sorry.’ So then we got another chap who [pause] who’d have been in an accident so he wasn’t very, I weren’t very happy with him. But in the meantime, a Manchester policeman called Charlie Kent grumbled about his position, his situation, so they gave him, they gave him my, they gave him, I got his trainer you see. And so as a result of that I didn’t get selected as pilot. When I got to Manchester and there was a big auditorium of combination of Nissen huts I suppose. I don’t know. It was a big hangar type of place and I was in there and my 026 was called out and they said, do you know they called out my name, my number 026 and I’ve a lot of stories on 026. Anyway, they said, ‘Yeah. Straight navigator.’ So I, well they didn’t say that but I knew that when he said what he’d intimated. That I wouldn’t be a pilot. I’d be a navigator. So that was alright. I mean I didn’t know what was what at the time.
MC: Did you, did you have to do any aptitude tests for navigator or did they just say you’re a navigator?
PT: No. They didn’t. I didn’t. I didn’t go up for, I went from Manchester to, I went from Manchester and I finished up in Liverpool to go on a ship to Canada. And when I was on this ship, I mention it in passing because we were still avoiding submarines. Still avoiding submarines and as we were going south during the day he got one of the, one of the chaps got burned and he was the, we were going down to the Azores where it was sunny. And then we came up the Atlantic coast past America, you know. New York and right and came into Halifax so that’s where I started my initial training. In Halifax.
MC: Obviously avoiding the submarines in the North Atlantic.
PT: Yeah. And avoided that. Yes. And I went to, I went on a train from Halifax to Moncton and that was a Receiving Centre. And I met a chap who lived up the street from me and he was Naval uniform and I said, ‘What are you doing here, Harold?’ I can’t remember his last name. He was called Harold anyway. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’m, I’ve trained as a pilot in the Fleet Air Arm.’ So where I’d failed the interview for Fleet Air Arm he, who couldn’t pass his scholarship could. He had a job getting in to, he couldn’t get into the Grammar School. Anyway, he passed, passed for Fleet Air Arm. Anyway, and he’d done flying you know and he went back to England and I don’t think he, I think you won’t believe this but he’d failed on ship recognition. So, so he didn’t get much further in the, I think he finished up on trainers. You know. Link trainers. You know the sort of [pause] he was. He became a teacher.
MC: On link trainers.
PT: In that respect. And he were. He was a teacher anyway and he finished up a teacher. I mean they weren’t the brightest some teachers were they?
MC: Yeah [laughs]
PT: Anyway.
MC: So your navigator’s training started at Malton, Ontario.
PT: Basically yes. I mean we had a long journey from, from Halifax to, to Moncton and then on again through, through Montreal overnight down to, we arrived on the 1st of January nineteen forty something. ’43.
MC: ’44.
PT: ‘44. We arrived at Toronto and we were wondering around in this place and it were, it was the Town Hall. There were no, there were books and files and I don’t why, how we managed to get in and somebody eventually appeared and there’d been a notice of arrival and we got a gash meal you know. And then, then of course we were filtered out to, it was Malton. It wasn’t Toronto International then. It was Malton Airport and we, we were stationed there and that’s where I did my first flying.
MC: What aircraft was that in?
PT: Pardon?
MC: What aircraft was that in?
PT: Avro Anson.
MC: Oh, the Anson.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Yeah. And I did all the flying in Canada on Avro Ansons and I passed everything there. I used to get, I used to get, ‘Ahh Monsieur Thomas.’ That was a Polish, [Weselovski], and [Denowski] and they all wanted to fly with Peter Thomas because they knew I could do it because I’d had so much training with this Mr Brooks at the Senior School In Nelson and he, he trained me on navigation and I never, I never had any trouble with any problems in navigation because I got such a grounding in navigation. And of course, I passed out in Canada as a, as a navigator.
MC: What rank were you then?
PT: I was an LAC but my friend who I met on the ship going out he happened to be on the same walking around the ship at night with, with rifles supposedly on guard you know and we finished up together as friends. And when it came to the exams I was about fourth. Fourth on the course and he was seventeen. But he knew a general in Ottawa didn’t he? So, so that made it rather difficult for me. So he got the commission and I got three stripes. So I came back a sergeant and he came back an officer and he was very generous. He said, ‘You know they’ve robbed you haven’t they Peter?’ They knew, he knew what the game was you know because he’d been, he’d had a forty hour pass, forty hour leave and he’d gone up to see this general in Ottawa. So he, you know the wheels had turned you know and his father was Sir Arthur Smout who’d done, who was doing business on armaments with Paul Revere Incorporated who had a vast building in New York because subsequently David Smout as he was called, we were subsequently invited to have a weekend at New York. So we went overnight on the train to New York and David rang the, the Paul Revere Incorporated and we went around this level of where they were so that it, they showed us New York from four points you see.
MC: Brilliant.
PT: And then at dinnertime we went to the [pause] to the Columbia. I think it was the Columbia. It was a restaurant you know. I’ve forgotten the name of the restaurant. Anyway, it don’t matter and we had our meal with these and then these two gentlemen said, ‘Well, we play Bridge at Saturday afternoon.’ Him and his deputy. So he said, ‘We’ll see you at teatime at this address.’ It was on 5th Avenue. So they bundled me and David off to, to the Rockettes. You know, the famous American Rockettes. The girls who were dancing and stuff. And then there was other items and then they finished up with, with somebody called Doris Day, I think it was in, “Up in Arms.” Yeah. And we watched that. And then of course we, we appeared in these drab Air Force uniforms because all Americans were in if they were in khaki it was serge. There were none of this rough stuff and we were in these rough and we were introduced at 5th Avenue, at this address of this president and we were introduced as Lieutenant Thomas and Smout [laughs] And of course we were LACs weren’t we? Anyway, we didn’t tell them did we? And during that meal David managed to spill his ice cream and I I had a little argument about, with the other chappie, he was, of course they were very strict Conservatives and I was, I’d come from Nelson and Nelson was a [laughs] well you couldn’t be any stronger labour than Nelson. It was a really [pause] yeah. So then from there if you just let me finish, then from there when we, when I’d finished at —
MC: When you finished in Canada.
PT: In Toronto. I had the chance. I had the choice of going up to Montreal or, I’d seen a dance band. Louis Armstrong on the shores of Lake Ontario and, and that week that I was to go I had the choice to see to go and see Duke Ellington who was my, he was one of the great jazz musicians. Have you ever heard of him? Eh? Yeah.
MC: Indeed. Yeah.
PT: Anyway, I went to, I went to Montreal and I met a chap who was a writer in the Navy. A writer is a clerk I think, and this was Bill Farmer, he was, he became a solicitor but he was in the Navy and he was a writer and we met up and we had, well we had at least a day together and then I was left on my own. And then I met a nice lady from [pause] she was, she was a French lady. She spoke, because when I rang her up she said, ‘Oui?’ She didn’t say yes. She said, ‘Oui.’ And she spoke French of course and she spoke English as well so it didn’t matter. And then from there we went back. I went back to Toronto. I did my flying from Malton Airport. Malton Airport was, became Toronto International. Big stuff you know. Toronto International.
MC: So having finished your flying, your navigator training in Canada you then got shipped back to the UK.
PT: Yes.
MC: And where did you come to?
PT: And then when we had, we were in the, we were in a Dutch boat and we got a, the bells all ringing and it all went boom boom boom. We were in the middle of the Atlantic and quite frankly I was shit scared you know [laughs] and we had to appear on deck with our life jackets on like this and we were all lined up like that. And it were just an exercise to see if you could do it if it actually happened. So anyway, we arrived at Gourock in Scotland and we were then posted to Pannal Ash College which was just a holding place. We didn’t do any lessons there. But there was a, it was a, Pannal Ash College was it was probably a private school and they had a swimming pool outside which was, it had sort of been a temporary dugout and the water ran in and it ran out at the other end and the only way you could get in, you could get in at the top but the only way you could get out was at the bottom and it were freezing this water because it was a river you see. Anyway, we, that passed and we from there —
MC: So, there wasn’t any flying there.
PT: No. No flying there. No. No. I think, I think we went up to Millom and did, did some flying from there. And that was when we were flying from Chicken Rock and up to the, up to all the islands of Scotland. Did a lot, quite a bit of flying up there.
MC: And that was in Ansons again, was it? Oh right.
PT: Pardon?
MC: That was in the Avro Anson again. Avro Anson.
PT: Yes. The same as in Canada. And then we moved down from there to Husbands Bosworth.
MC: Was that —
PT: That was a —
MC: That was the Operational Training Unit.
PT: Yes. OT. Yes, it was. Yeah. And there we, we had this incident of not arriving. We were, we were flying on a, on a course and the engine, flight engineer who I think at that time was still the mid-upper gunner but he was looking after the petrol tanks, you know, switching the tanks. And he said, he said, ‘I think, I think we’ve got a problem here skipper with the, with the petrol. Supply of petrol.’ So they started then looking for somewhere to land. And they got, they got a position line from, from the wireless operator the Welshman, Peter [Hoare] and they went, they got this, they got this position line to Leicester. Leicester way. Leicestershire. Leicester. But before that happened the skipper noticed a landing place and it was, it was, it was a grass landing arrangement. It was [pause] I’ve just forgotten the name. I think, is it there?
MC: When was that? Was that while you were at Husbands Bosworth?
PT: When we came back to England that was.
MC: Yeah. It was.
PT: That was when we were [coughs] we were on a, on a —
MC: Was that at Millom?
PT: Pardon?
MC: Was that at Millom or Husbands Bosworth?
PT: That was —
MC: When you were at the OTU.
PT: That was, that was after Millom, I think.
MC: Yeah. The OTU.
PT: Yeah. And that’s when John spotted this landing. It was grass you see. It was a grass landing and they were training pilots because I met a chap there. He knew me from the Grammar School and we had a few days there and they were enjoyable and then we were carted back in a wagon to where we were you know.
MC: Because it mentioned that you force landed.
PT: Yes.
MC: At Penkridge.
PT: Yes. That’s right.
MC: Penkridge.
PT: Forced landing in this grass landing and we just of course it wasn’t it wasn’t designed for Wellington bombers it were designed for Tiger Moths you know. It wasn’t designed for [laughs] for landing these bigger aircraft and he just landed. And he’d had trouble landing this Wellington when we were at, when we were training on the Wellington. He had a devil of a job landing these Wellingtons. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. I was just about to ask you what aircraft.
PT: And —
MC: And you’ve just answered that. Yeah.
PT: The story goes that he used to just, he used to sing, “Johnny’s Hero,” when he were, when he were coming in to land you know. Anyway, we got through that and he landed and they just pushed the wheels over of this fence and that was it. We, we were carted back to the base with, to where we had come from with, in a van. In a wagon, you know. And the, they sent a chap to fly this Wellington to get it out of this grass landing affair. Of course, they landed in a, they landed in, they landed in a Morris Oxford, in an Oxford. There was an aircraft called an Oxford. It was comparable to the Anson.
MC: I know it.
PT: This Oxford, it had a little accident and landed so that was [other voices not part of interview] But finished with Wellingtons. We moved up to Lancasters. To convert on to Lancasters.
MC: Oh, it was a Conversion Unit. Yeah.
PT: Yeah. That was Woolfox Lodge and that’s where, that’s where I really was. I think about it even today one morning I was sat in the navigation room and there was a blue serge uniform. He was an officer and, and I didn’t really know this face but I knew the morning after when he wasn’t there that he was killed the day after. They came. This crew were regarded as being the best crew in the, in the intake. There were eight. I think they were either six or eight crews in the intake.
MC: Yeah. Can we just go back slightly? Obviously, you’ve gone to the Conversion Unit. When did you crew up?
PT: When what?
MC: When did your crew get together?
PT: Oh, did it, yes. When we moved from Millom where we’d done this Avro Anson flying we went to —
PT: Then you went to the OTU.
MC: Pardon?
PT: When you went to the OTU.
MC: OTU at —
PT: Husbands Bosworth.
MC: Husbands Bosworth.
PT: Yes. Is that when crewed up with them?
MC: Was that at Husbands Bosworth?
PT: Yeah. You’re not recording now.
MC: Yes. I am.
PT: Especially —
MC: Is that when you crewed up?
PT: Yes.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. But that would have been a five man crew there.
PT: I often tell the story about my younger brother who was always a tendency to knock me, you know. And being knocked with the elder brother and knocked with the younger brother because I was the middle one and he, I’m trying to think. Well, he’d be surprised who chose the pilot because there’s a story about who chose the pilot. Because I’m in the NAAFI queue or some queue and I’d been [he's left the door open] We moved from Millom to Husbands Bosworth and that’s where we crewed up. And we were in this queue and somebody tapped me on the shoulder and he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘We’re looking for a navigator. We’ve got, we’ve got an air gunner and a mid-upper gunner and a wireless operator and a bomb aimer,’ he said. ‘But we haven’t got a navigator.’ And, ‘Would you like to join us?’ They knew I was a navigator. ‘Would you like to join us?’ And that. ‘Yes. I’m happy to join you if you think I’m suitable.’ And from there we chose the pilot. The pilot was called Dennis Johns and he was a, he’d been a public school lad but he was, he wasn’t, he didn’t strike me as being a very well educated man but he, he was, he was alright.
MC: Was he a good pilot?
PT: Sometimes we wondered. I wondered. They wondered about me with navigation. I wondered about him. But I have to say yes he was a brilliant pilot because we finished [laughs] We finished.
MC: You arrived at Husbands Bosworth. Yeah.
PT: And there’s, that’s where we crewed up.
MC: Yeah. You said.
PT: And we chose, we eventually chose this Johns for a pilot. We chose him. My younger brother would have essentially have said the pilot chooses the crew but no it wasn’t like that. It was always different to what he thought because he was, I was not knocked with, I had two brothers. An elder brother and the younger brother and I used to get knocked from both sides so —
MC: I remember you saying. Yeah.
PT: But —
MC: Yeah. So you went on the, on to the —
PT: I won though you know because they’re both dead [laughs]
MC: [laughs] Bless you. So you went to the Conversion Unit on to Lancasters.
PT: I went up to the, yes and this is where there was a tragedy. I don’t, I didn’t mention it.
MC: Yeah.
PT: There was a tragedy because they were, they were reckoned to be the best crew.
MC: Ah, you said. Yeah. Yeah.
PT: And —
MC: His uniform was there.
PT: And they were coming back from a diversionary sweepstake. No bombs. No. No. The war had nearly finished and they were coming back and they lost an engine and then they flew a bit further and they lost another engine. And then as they were coming in to land they had to just turn like that and he lost another engine. He went like that and they were all killed. And he was the chap that was sat next to me the morning before and he was, and I think, I think many a time about that that family losing that boy.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Because he was an officer. I probably wouldn’t have bothered if he’d been a sergeant like I was [laughs] Stamina.
MC: So, so when you finished at the Conversion Unit —
PT: Yeah.
MC: You were then posted to your first, your squadron.
PT: Yes.
MC: What squadron was that?
PT: 149.
MC: And where was that?
PT: Methwold.
MC: Methwold. So you —
PT: Methwold was a satellite of, I think it was a satellite of Mildenhall.
CS: You’re on the Mildenhall Register, aren’t you?
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yes. And that was obviously with the same crew. Johns.
PT: Oh yes. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: We were on. We were, we were crewed up together for about two years and then in the middle of 1946 I would say, you know. After we was, we were together from nineteen forty —
MC: Yeah. The story, I think goes while you were there about the Astro compass. Can you —
PT: Oh yeah. Well, that was on the operation.
MC: Oh, was it? Which operation was that?
PT: The Kiel.
MC: Oh Kiel. Yeah.
PT: Yeah. Kiel. Yeah. I should have kept my mouth shut but I didn’t as usual. Big mouth. No. I put this, I put this Astro compass . It was a disastrous operation. We got to the to the Danish coast and I warned the skipper. I warned him. I said, ‘We’re much too early. We’re at least twenty minutes. Fifteen twenty minutes too early. We should be doglegging.’ And of course, there’s a risk when you dog leg that these oncoming on stream can be, you can —
MC: Collisions.
PT: Go in to one.
MC: Yeah.
PT: So he didn’t want to do that. He said, ‘We’ll go in with the first wave.’ Typical Johns you know. And anyway we, I think when we, I think we were so early that when I got the message from what was being said that the main target was under the wing when we, when we got through so we missed that. So we turned around and we turned back to come back and this is where there was such lack of brains. We should have made allowances for all the time that we’d lost when we should have gone back up over the North Sea and got away from any impending German fighters because as we were flying the rear gunner said, ‘Port go.’ And Johns just put his wing [psst] and we lost about twelve thousand feet in no time. When we pulled out of this operation we were about six thousand feet, or six hundred feet. I’m not quite sure but I know, I know it were, it was a bit dangerous.
MC: So where does the Astro compass come into this story?
PT: Well, when, when we, I don’t know if it was before or after but when we were flying along and we were, we were trying to find out where we were the astrocompass it does not give you a fix but it gives you a position line. So when you put the astrocompass in the right way around, the first time I put it in the wrong way around but I mean that was so what? You were under a lot of stress then you know. I turned it around and put it in the right way and I said, ‘We’re going in a westerly direction skipper. You’ve no need to worry.’ And I asked him. I said, ‘Is your P4 compass working?’ He said, ‘Yes, but it’s better that you give me the position line,’ because the P4 compass it’s a bit dodgy really. It’s not, not too reliable. Anyway, we ploughed on and ploughed on and we, we had this incident with a fighter, with a German fighter when he said, ‘Port go.’ That meant go and Johns —
MC: Corkscrew.
PT: Responded to Cherokee. He was called, our rear gunner was called Cherokee and he came from Dumbarton. Yeah. Are you recording all this? Very good. And he came from Dumbarton and he was only a little fella but he were a good rear gunner. He spotted this one that was approaching us and went [psst]. We lost a lot of time. I think double quick time and never saw that guy. Now, possibly he thought well the war’s over why, why risk myself? Because he could have got shot down you know. We never saw him again and we kept ploughing on and ploughing on and then, then we, we flew as somebody said it’s a, we’re flying over a big lake and I knew what that was. It was the Zuiderzee as I knew it. And we got through the Zuiderzee and by that time, I’ve forgotten to mention that all through this operation the Gee box which gave you a fix, it gave you a position line and, and both. With the Gee box it was, it gave you a fix. You got these two posters.
MC: Yeah. Height and —
PT: The B Posts and the C Post and when you lined them up you locked the machine and it gave you a reading. And you had a special Gee box map which told you your, you read off the numbers and you got where you were.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And of course, it’s a lot. We was trusted. A bit stressful, you know.
MC: Well, the navigator. Yeah. Right. Of course.
PT: Yeah. Anyway, we got through this Zuiderzee.
PS: But they were jamming you, Peter weren’t, they were jamming you.
PT: Got through the Zuiderzee.
CS: At night. At night.
[recording paused]
MC: Yeah, but —
PT: Somebody else. And he said, ‘It hasn’t been so good, sir’. He said, ‘You’re first back,’ he said, ‘And don’t worry about anything,’ he said, ‘Because they’ve been all over the sky this operation.’ He said, ‘It’s been a real shocker,’ he said. ‘So you’ve done very well.’ And when I signed my, I signed it you know he said, ‘And that’s,’ he said, ‘When you get to Civvy Street,’ he said, ‘That’s signature is worth two thousand pounds.’
CS: Dad. When, when you did, when you dropped height when you’d seen the German fighter.
PT: Yeah.
CS: Isn’t that when all your —
PT: Oh yeah.
CS: Instruments went up in the air.
PT: When he, when he went like that.
CS: When you dived.
PT: He went. You flew up in the air and landed on the floor and dropped me down on my hands and knees trying to find these instruments you know. Pencil and that you know. Bits of stuff that you use you know.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: There was I think it was about as big as that book and it gave you, you set it up and it was a, it was like a mini computer.
MC: Yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah.
PT: You know what I mean.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: You know what —
MC: Navigation computer. Yeah.
PT: Eh?
MC: Your navigation computer.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: Yeah.
MC: So the story also about the [unclear] navigator who was, whose Lanc crashed when he came back from a diversion raid.
PT: Yeah, and then crashed.
MC: What happened there?
PT: Well, they went —
CS: That’s the one that [failed]
PS: You had that.
MC: Oh, that is the same one is it. Yeah. It is.
PT: They went, they went they went on a diversionary sweep and as they were coming back they lost an engine. They were at Woolfox Lodge.
MC: Yes. That’s the one you were telling me about. Yeah.
PT: They lost an engine.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And then they lost another engine.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And —
MC: Yeah. You’ve told me about that. He flipped over his back.
PT: Over.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And they were all killed.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: And that was the chap that was sat next to me the morning before and I knew who he was.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I didn’t know him personally but I know, I knew who he belonged to. So that was very sad. I’ve been thinking about him over the last —
MC: Bless you.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Terrible.
MC: So —
PT: Terrible loss to that family.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I think about it even today after all seventy or eighty years. Yeah. Terrible.
MC: Yeah. Do you want to have a break?
[recording paused]
PT: Worked at weekends. He was a subset. a sub editor on the —
CS: Was it the Thompson’s Newspapers up in Dundee?
PT: This is ET Thompson’s.
MC: Jock Fraser you say.
PT: Eh?
MC: Jock Fraser.
PT: Yeah. Jock Fraser. Yeah. It’s his dad.
CS: Was it his dad?
MC: What did he do on your crew?
PT: He was the bomb aimer.
CS: Was he not eighteen months ago dad?
PT: He —
CS: About eighteen months ago.
PT: Yeah. Is it eighteen months?
CS: Yeah. Something like that.
PT: Yeah.
CS: I mean he must have been well in his nineties too.
PT: Yeah.
CS: Yeah.
PT: He was the, I think, I think if you were reckoning brain power he was the, he was a very clever chap really. Good with words you know. If he wrote a letter he didn’t write pages. He wrote all that was necessary in one page and he were, he were clever you know on words. You know, he was, he was a good friend.
MC: So, tell me about this losing the engine.
PT: Pardon?
MC: You lost an engine during —
PT: Yeah.
MC: Coming back on.
PT: What happened was that after the war it were three group. Certainly 149 we were designated to photograph up to the Russian demarcation line. So sometimes we went down towards Switzerland and we were supposed designating —
CS: Designated.
PT: Different areas which we were trying to photographing but we’d a lot of trouble coming, going and coming because of the cloud formation. You couldn’t photograph if there were cloud formation. [unclear] Catherine’s mentioned. One morning we were at 9 o’clock we were at off, off the Norwegian coast and we were just, just about to either come back because there was not, we hadn’t got the too much cloud or some reason and we turned around. As we turned around as we were flying we lost an engine. So no problem we were coming back on three. So I wanted to go to the nearest landfall which was the Orkneys. Johns, Johns of course said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘We’re alright. Straight back to Cromer.’ Cromer which was the landfall into our base you see.
CS: Do you mean Cromer?
MC: Cromer. Yeah. I know. I realise what he meant.
CS: Yeah.
PT: Now in the Fleet Air Arm the navigator is the captain. Did you know that?
MC: Yeah. You told me.
CS: Maybe he wished —
PT: I’ve just told you now.
CS: Maybe he wished he’d been the captain that day.
MC: Then.
PT: I’ve told you now haven’t I?
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: I hadn’t told you before, had I?
MC: No. You hadn’t. No. I was thinking something when you said about the pilots. So yeah. So you made, you wanted to come back to nearest landfall but he decided to come —
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Come back to base.
PT: ‘No,’ he said, ‘We’ll be alright. We’ve got three.’ Well, that one that that this guy was with me.
MC: There was always the chance you’d lose an another one wasn’t there?
PT: Yeah. They lost three didn’t they?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. You didn’t want that happening to you.
PT: They lost three and lost their lives.
MC: Yeah. You were making, so why did he need to get back to base?
PT: And that same night [pause] Say what were you going to say.
MC: No. Why did he want to get back to base and not land up north?
PT: Perhaps he had a girlfriend that night. I don’t know.
CS: Well, my dad, my dad thought it was a girlfriend.
PT: He had a girlfriend in London. We could have had a trip to, there’s a place on the Norwegian coast. Now that name is just I haven’t got that name.
CS: Bergen?
PT: Eh?
CS: Bergen. Stavanger. Bergen.
PT: No. Not Bergen. No.
CS: Stavanger.
PT: Eh?
CS: Stavanger.
PT: Stavanger. No. No.
PS: Trondheim?
PT: Anyway —
CS: Trondheim.
MC: Trondheim probably.
CS: Trondheim. Trondheim.
PT: No. No.
PS: Tromso.
PT: Anyway, the thing was —
CS: What did you say? Trondheim. What was the other one?
PS: Tromso.
CS: Tromso.
PT: Eh?
CS: Tromso.
PT: No. I don’t know. I’ll have to look it up. That, that opportunity to go there and stay there.
CS: Right.
PT: It could have been dangerous but it was an opportunity to be based in Norway. Or Sweden.
CS: Do you mean, do you mean when you lost your engine to go and fly back to Norway.
PS: No.
CS: You don’t mean that do you?
PS: No.
PT: Say that again.
CS: I said you don’t mean when you lost an engine to go back to flying to Norway to land do you?
PT: No.
CS: No. You don’t mean that do you?
PT: There was no question of going back. No.
CS: No. No. No.
PT: The [pause] no there was no question and we never thought about that.
CS: No.
PT: Possibly we could have done if we’d thought about it but you don’t always thing about these things when —
CS: No.
PT: When you’re stressed.
CS: No.
MC: So did you, did you, I mean you did a raid on Kiel but after that it was did you fly any ops bringing prisoners of war back and —
PT: Yes.
MC: Operation Exodus.
PT: Did one of those.
MC: Operation Exodus.
PT: And I did two dropping food over Holland.
MC: Oh, Operation Manna. Yeah.
PT: Manna. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: There was a badge for that too.
MC: Yeah. I believe so.
PT: I never got that.
MC: I believe so. Yeah.
PT: A friend of mine who’s now deceased he got that badge. He, he was keen on badges and stuff like that. I couldn’t be bothered. Then when we were, when we were on, when we were at Methwold we were, we were wearing the 1939/45 badge. And then, and some others which would, I can’t just remember and they told us that we couldn’t wear that badge. You couldn’t wear that and that’s when Fraser said. ‘Well, if we can’t wear that badge, we joined up in 1943 and it’s 1946 if we can’t wear that badge well we won’t wear any of them.’ And he just he just washed his hands of it. Fred. And we just fed up with it and he gave the, gave the medals that he had, he gave them to his kids to play with he were that fed up.
CS: Yeah.
PT: But I I don’t know.
CS: So what were you, there was a badge you were given and then —
MC: Was this —
CS: And then the Ministry of Defence took it back off them didn’t they?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. It was a medal. He was on about, yeah you’ve got it down here. Peter.
CS: It’s amazing actually isn’t it that he did it?
PT: That’s Peter’s stuff.
MC: Yeah, it is. I just [pause] So when did you, I mean when did you fly over Niagara Falls?
PT: Oh, that was in Canada.
MC: Oh, while you were in Canada where it was.
PT: You can’t fly over —
MC: Not from the UK you can’t.
PT: You can’t. You can’t fly over Niagara Falls in Norway. It’s in Canada.
CS: It’s because he was based, he was based in Toronto.
PT: No. I was on a trip in Canada.
MC: I thought you’d gone back over there.
PT: Toronto to Hamilton and I was with this Flight Lieutenant [Bowen] who was, he was sort of, ‘I’ll go with, I’ll go with LAC Thomas today for a change.’ It was designed to see that everybody was being, was working according to plan. And he was with me that particular day and when we got towards Hamilton he he just. none of the civilian pilots on the shore and I don’t know what they were saying but he turned and we went to, we went to, and he turned and we went to Niagara falls. So we flew around and saw Niagara Falls from height. So when we were around the crew reunion do at, at the, at the hotel in, in Toronto. I just forget the name of the, in the big hotel and of course there were these menu things and Flight Lieutenant [Bowen] he was signing them, you know. Flight Lieutenant Bowen put his name. “Flight Lieutenant Bowen. Remember Niagara.” You know. That was that.
MC: Good memories.
PT: Super.
MC: Good memories.
PT: Super. Yeah. Wonderful.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So if we come back to, at 149 Squadron you flew Operation Exodus. Exodus and Manna. You flew on Manna. Were you quite low flying on Operation Manna, weren’t you?
PT: What?
MC: You were low. Flying low on Operation Manna supply drops.
PT: I didn’t know this. The don’t tell you about losses you know. I mean when we were at Woolfox Lodge and that one kite crashed on the runway nobody knew about it. Only that that same night some fighter bombers came over and shot two more of our intake. I’ve never mentioned that before.
MC: No.
PT: But that’s what happened.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We lost, we lost three crews out of our intake and I think there were eight. Eight crews. Eight sixes. There were six in a crew you see until we got the flight engineer and we didn’t get the flight engineer until we got to squadron.
MC: Yeah.
PS: I think where you were going with that Pete was that some aircraft were lost in Operation Manna.
PT: You said that.
PS: Yeah.
PT: It’s him that has [pause] it’s him that started all this nonsense. He fired us up and fired me up and —
PS: We got you the book about —
MC: Yeah, when I’ve talked to odd people, Dutch people I talked to Dutch people and they tell me about waving to the aircraft because they were so low.
PT: Yes. They did that with me when we went to, when we dropped food over Holland they had a big wide circle with Germans. They were starving too. With Germans and Dutch all around this and of course as we were dropping these boxes of margarine and whatever they’d be rushing in. But we weren’t, we were bothered about that because if you don’t get off the ground, if you don’t get off the, out of that situation and I remember being stood behind the pilot and a lady came out of a [pause] roof like and waving this Union Jack. That was good, wasn’t it?
MC: Yeah. You were low enough to see it all.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Never seen [pause] No. No.
MC: Yeah. So I think they were very —
PT: But do you know —
MC: They were very pleased to see you.
PT: Do you know, Mike. Is your name Mike? Yeah. I remembered your name. Mike. We went to a camp in nineteen, I just don’t know when it was. We were avid campers my wife and, well we had no alternative with children. We did a lot of camping and we got to a site near Riez. That’s the major town there. Riez. When you go to Riez you go about fifteen kilometres and you get to this Lak de St Croix and this lake was formed, it’s a, it’s a barrier supplying water to Marseilles and it was, it was the gorges of Verdun. Not the north one. The south one. There’s two gorges. There’s two gorges. There’s this one gorge and that one is in the south and he comes down and they started filling this barrier that they’d made, the French and it took them five years to fill. And when we got there in 1978 it were just about filling up. Yeah. Yeah. And they were swimming in it and paddling in it and of course the big thing was wind surfing so big head Peter went. I had a windsurfer off John Claude. He was the guy you know and I didn’t I fall off it [laughs] but we learned and my wife was a better windsurfer than me because the Dufour wing board, it was a little bit light for me. I weighed fifteen stone. I really needed a heavier [unclear] as he said. John Claude said, ‘You need a [unclear] Peter.’
PS: But Peter there was a Dutch —
PT: But we made friends with them you know.
PS: There was a Dutch connection at St Le Croix. The Dutch connection.
PT: Yeah.
PS: There was. That’s your story isn’t it? The Dutch were there.
MC: The Dutch.
PT: Oh, a lot of Dutch people there. Do you know you can’t believe this that we went to that camp for ten years and I never [laughs] I must have been as thick as two short planks I never ever, never mentioned that I’d ever been in an aircraft. That I’d ever been RAF navigator, you know. Which was a big big thing.
MC: To the Dutch it was.
PT: A big thing when you dropped food to them.
MC: Yeah. It is. Very much to the Dutch.
PT: And they were never mentioned.
MC: Yeah. They you are.
PT: Never mentioned that.
MC: They have got great affection for the RAF.
PT: I’ll give you, if I can get your address you can write to them and tell them you’ve interviewed Peter Thomas.
MC: I see, I see you also did a Cook’s Tour.
PT: Pardon?
MC: You also did a Cook’s Tour.
PT: Did a —?
MC: A Cook’s Tour of the Ruhr.
PT: Oh afterwards. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: That was —
MC: Yeah. You went all over.
PT: Yeah. That was, when we did that Cook’s Tour we took about a dozen blokes in the ground crew you know. And that was a dangerous operation you know. Somebody, I don’t know who it was but they were, it came through the grapevine that somebody pulled a ripcord or something and we lost an aircraft, you know. When you pull a ripcord and it puts a boat on the wing. And that, now when you’re flying you don’t want boats on your wing do you [laughs]
MC: So, tell me what —
PT: There were, there were some, these were Army blokes who should have just, they should have just been like that ‘til we got there and somebody pulled the rip. So they said. I wasn’t in that aircraft.
MC: Fortunately. Yeah. So you mentioned in your logbook review. What was, what was the review? What was that. The review. It’s got review Norway. Review Switzerland. Review Med and Nice. Southern France.
[pause]
CS: Dad, you need your reading glasses.
PT: A map of Norway there. We landed at Woodbridge.
MC: Oh yeah.
PT: That was a big airfield to land. A big aerodrome. That was an emergency landing there that we did that.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We did a lot of things that you forget about you know. I mean that one. The biggest when —
CS: Why did you —
PT: When you think about Johns and his flying when you landed on that grass runway at Penkridge that was superb. And that —
MC: He did a good job.
PT: You never bothered about landing after that. No.
MC: Yeah. No, I was just wondering what it meant by review.
CS: Dad. Dad, why did you an emergency landing?
MC: Yeah. Because you did some photographs. Took some photographs, didn’t you?
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Well, we went to Switzerland. Switzerland and the Mediterranean at Nice. Southern France.
MC: Yeah. You said about your emergency landing. I’ll come back to what you were saying earlier because you said you made the emergency landing because you lost an engine, didn’t you? Was that it?
PT: That was in Norway.
MC: Yeah. When you were coming back from Norway.
PT: When we, when we got to Norway.
MC: That’s right. You did do that. Yeah.
PT: We were just about to start the photo and we lost this engine.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And I wanted to come back via John O’Groats.
MC: Yeah. Yeah, we did talk about that. Yeah.
CS: You talked about it.
MC: Yeah. I thought that was the one that —
PT: ‘Oh no,’ he said ‘Give us a course back to Cromer. We’ll go straight back over the —’ Of course, we’d three engines and when you’ve got three engines you should be doing something about it. Now that firm that lost their lives was the best crew. They came back from the northern, north coast of Germany who lost two engines and then they turned.
MC: Yeah.
PT: To land. You know you have to, you bank don’t you to —
MC: Yeah.
PT: They did that and lost another engine.
MC: Swept on his back.
PT: They went over and they were all killed.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And that chap was, that chap was the serge uniform that I was aware of when they were sat next to me. I don’t know his name but I’ve thought about him many a time. I’ve thought about him since I’ve been holed up here.
MC: You also mentioned in your logbook about different operation names like [Sinkum.]
PT: [Sinkum.] That were dropping bombs over. [Sinkum.]
That was getting rid of —
They were getting rid of —
MC: Yeah.
PT: These, what was the —
MC: Incendiaries. The bombs.
PT: Yes. When they bombed they dropped these —
MC: Mines. Oh no. They wouldn’t be the mines.
PT: They dropped these. Made fires.
MC: Incendiary bombs.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We dropped those.
MC: Dispose of them. Yeah.
PT: To get rid of them over —
MC: Over the North Sea. Yeah.
PT: Over the Welsh Coast. Over the water of the Welsh Coast.
MC: Give them to the Welsh.
PT: You what?
[recording paused.
MC: So, you enjoyed your time in the RAF did you?
PT: I did what?
MC: You enjoyed your time in the RAF.
PT: I enjoyed everything that I’ve ever done except being too close to Peter Selby [laughs] If you say the wrong thing to him and for goodness sake don’t point to him [yeah] I didn’t point. I thought about that.
MC: So when did you come. When did you —
PT: He’s my best friend and when I want any advice I go to him and usually he provides me with the right advice. Not enough money but advice.
MC: So when, so when did you finish?
PT: He’s been great hasn’t he Catherine?
MC: Yeah.
PT: He’s been great.
MC: When did you finish with the RAF? Let me see.
PT: 1946.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: No. I think. No, it might have been early ’47.
MC: ’46. No. This is crashing in a Mosquito. This is a new one.
PT: Yeah. I had a crash in a Mosquito.
MC: Did you? Where was that from? Where were you flying from on that?
PT: That was from [pause]
MC: Were you at Methwold then?
PT: Eh?
MC: Were you at Methwold then?
PT: Feltwell.
MC: Oh Feltwell.
PT: No. No. I wasn’t at Feltwell.
MC: Methwold.
PT: Can I have a look at the book? [pause] The navigator, and somebody said, ‘We’ve a, we’ve a flight test going on in a Mosquito. Have you somebody you could send who wants an air trip?’ and I said, ‘No. There’s nobody here. I’m the duty navigator and there’s nobody here.’ And he said, ‘Oh well, that don’t matter. Do you want to go?’ And I said, ‘Oh, yeah. I’ll have a go.’ So I went in this Mosquito and this chap had, he’d got a, he’d done well in over the Mediterranean. He had, he had an award for what he’d done in ground, the ground loop to an aircraft. Not a Mosquito. It was a two engine job. I’ve forgotten the name of it and you could, you could ground loop it like that and you got away with it. But he didn’t. He tried to do that when we were landing this Mosquito and it just shot into this field you know and cut, just cut my arm. I was next to him of course and he was up with the lid and out. Being first out. Of course, it didn’t fortunately set on fire and then the group captain came around and had a word with me and said, ‘Are you alright, laddie,’ sort of business. ‘Yes sir.’ [laughs]
MC: But nobody was really hurt.
PT: No. No. No.
MC: No.
PT: But he got a, he got a black a black mark on his logbook. He got —
MC: Was —
PT: I don’t know just what he got but he was —
MC: Was the aircraft a write off?
PT: Oh well. It was pretty well buggered [laughs] Well, the, it was, a Mosquito was essentially a plywood affair.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And in the accident it broke the fuselage here and it cut my arm here. Only a slight cut and of course he went around all the camp. [unclear] accompanying the navigator to the pilot he had, you know you’d have thought they’d have had my arm off you know. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah we were lucky then. And that taught me not to do any more reserve flights you know [laughs] So I didn’t, I don’t think I flew —
MC: So you were station navigation officer at that time or —
PT: Pardon?
MC: You were station navigation, navigating man.
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: At that time.
PT: For a bit, yes. At that place.
MC: What rank were you then?
PT: Pardon?
MC: What rank were you then?
PT: Well, I was, it was two years from being a sergeant in Canada. That was in about the 19th of June. Nineteen, nineteen —
MC: It would be ‘46 would it?
PT: What time was, have I made a note to you when we were finishing in Canada? Nineteen.
MC: You have. Yeah, 1944 wasn’t it?
PT: Yeah. 1944. Yeah. That’s when we finished in Canada.
MC: Yeah. You were a sergeant then.
PT: I was sergeant when I got, not until I got back to —
MC: To the UK.
PT: No. That’s right.
MC: So what rank were you when you finished in the Air Force?
PT: When I finished? A warrant officer.
MC: Oh, you did make warrant officer.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I made a mistake. I should have, I should have had a uniform you know but being tight fisted I thought well I won’t be needing that when I go in Civvy Street but I wish I’d have got it now. There was a serge one, you know.
MC: Yeah.
PT: It was an officer type uniform.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: You know. Is this my tea?
CS: Yeah. I just topped it up. They might be able to supply him with one if he goes to this awards do, do you think. Mike?
[recording paused]
PT: Friendly with a girl you know.
Other: Can I interrupt for two seconds. I need to find out what he wants for his tea.
[recording paused]
MC: I’ve paused it. Right. It’s paused anyway.
CS: What do you want for tea, dad?
PT: What do I want for tea?
CS: That’s ok.
[recording paused]
MC: So you went back to work. Did you find it a bit calm, mundane after. After flying? So, this was —
PT: He was a nice bloke.
MC: So this was a souvenir from your 92 navigator’s course.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I should be on that somewhere.
PS: LAC Thomas. You’re on the list there. LAC Thomas.
CS: Has he told you about going to New York?
PS: Yes.
MC: Yeah.
PT: No. I haven’t told. No.
CS: Oh, haven’t you talked about —
MC: Yeah.
PT: This chap that I met on the boat going to Canada he was, we were on the ship, on board ship and he finished up in the next bed to me and we got, we got quite, well we were friends. We only lost that friendship when he got a commission and the other fellow was from St Austell in Cornwall and unfortunately he was lost on a, on a [pause] on a Mosquito. When he came back instead of I did the same thing I volunteered. I made application to go on Mosquitoes rather than Lancasters because I thought it would be safer you see. Anyway, I didn’t. I think they were choosing officers and I was only a sergeant. So I missed it but this fella got it and he was lost on a —
MC: Yeah.
PT: He was lost on a trip on a Mosquito with a Canadian, a South African pilot who came over when we went for a tour with my Javelin. The first car I bought. We called at this cottage. We made enquiries at St Austell and the man said, ‘Oh, it’s my wife. On the roadside. It’s a cottage. Go and knock on the door and it’ll be you.’ And when we went into this room it was just like a mausoleum. There were all these things from, from him being in the Air Force and [pause] sad. His mother lost her only son.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: And it was sad.
MC: So, did you find it, going back to when you came out the Air Force was it difficult? Was it difficult to settle back into civilian life after four years of flying?
PT: Not for me. No.
MC: No. What did you think about the job that Bomber Command did?
PT: What Bomber Command did?
MC: Yeah. During the war.
PT: Well, like the guy who was running it. Harris. He was called Harris, wasn’t he?
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: Harris.
MC: Bomber Harris.
PT: He said if we just keep bombing them a bit longer they would [laughs] they’ll give up.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We lost a lot of lives that we could have avoided but you see they’d have been Bomber Command lives. So, I don’t know. I don’t know. I were glad I didn’t —
MC: What about Churchill?
PT: Pardon?
MC: How did, did you get much about what Churchill was doing and Churchill was —
PT: Not then. No.
MC: No. Yeah. Yeah.
PT: People didn’t. They didn’t tell people. You know, when that, when that aircraft crashed upside down you know we got, we didn’t get to know that. We just got to know that it was lost. Somebody else told us something else.
MC: Yeah. So, I mean, post-war Bomber Command wasn’t recognised probably for want of a better word as it should have been. How did you feel about that?
PT: I think it was, I think we were underestimated.
MC: Did you get the clasp? Did you get the Bomber Command clasp?
PT: No.
MC: You didn’t send for the clasp.
PT: No. I haven’t anything.
CS: Have you applied for that?
PT: Have I got a clasp?
PS: No. No. You didn’t get the clasp.
PT: No.
PS: You had —
CS: He’s made enquiries.
PS: Yeah. Nothing’s about —
CS: He hasn’t made —
[recording paused]
PT: He, if there are any clasps —
MC: If you what? Sorry, what was his name?
PT: Pardon?
MC: What was his name? Victor.
PT: Victor Tytherington.
MC: Oh right.
PT: Have you heard that name?
MC: No.
PT: No. Well, he, he was a navigator late on and he went and he trained in South Africa and he, there was various, there was a Manna clasp for dropping food over Holland. There was something for that. I haven’t anything for any of them.
PS: So we —
PT: Sorry.
PS: I could fill in the gap.
[recording paused]
PT: A tour of ops on Bomber Command. You know, like joining Methwold. If that job had have gone on, it finished of course but if it had gone on you’d have to do thirty ops before you’d finished your tour.
MC: A full tour was thirty. Yeah.
PT: Thirty. Thirty two. I don’t just know. I know there was a gunner in Todmorden and he did about eighty odd in a, as a gunner. Henry he were called. There were a few in Todmorden you know. Just navigators and stuff you know but we never bothered. Got to do. I had enough to do with this bakehouse that I got shuffled into with my dad.
MC: You were in Todmorden?
PT: Pardon?
MC: You lived in Todmorden.
PT: Todmorden.
MC: Yeah.
CS: [unclear]
PT: I was fifty years in Todmorden.
CS: Yeah. He was born in Nelson.
MC: I used to work up that way. How long were you a baker then?
PT: When I came out of the Air Force I had the, aircrew they had the chance of going to university. That was the first mistake I made.
CS: You could have gone.
PT: Me and my wife, no matter now said, ‘Well, you were that busy trying to get your end away.’ [laughs]
CS: But also you said you could have gone into BOAC.
PT: With her.
MC: Yeah. Did you consider BOAC?
PT: Pardon?
MC: Did you consider BOAC? British Overseas Air —
PT: When I was, when I was at Methwold, yes. I could have gone on BOA, BOAC. I was asked to go with having this Reserved Occupation in the Treasury Department I turned it down but I’m not sorry about that. I never felt sorry about that really.
CS: But you also thought, he said they wouldn’t need navigators. That’s why he didn’t want to go to BOAC.
PT: When I left, when I left the squadron and the outfit, when they brought the crew up I don’t know where Johns went but Fraser, the bomb aimer he joined another crew and, but I went. I went north and I did an instructor’s course and I was, when I was, when I was on that test flight I was supposed to be an instructor at this aerodrome. The aerodrome. There’s that many around there. There’s, it could be North Luffenham. There’s a lot of different ones. Cottesmore. Woolfox Lodge.
MC: Yeah.
PT: That was tragic when they lost that one you know. That were just poor bloody maintenance. There was, there was a little amusing incident. I was in a, we were in a NAAFI queue and you know the ATS people? They deliver aircraft. Well, a person had. We were sort of in this queue for the NAAFI and over to our left a person not known at the time man or woman walked and had a helmet on and they were, the ATS people they used to deliver any sort of aircraft. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Lancasters, Halifaxes. Any one they could fly them. And on this particular occasion there was a queue like of the pilots you know, and they were sort of saying, ‘Great job that,’ you know. And suddenly this great job [laughs] pulled her helmet off and she were a woman and all the pilots that were in this queue you know and we said [laughs].
[recording paused]
PT: I think when I, when I got the, when I got back into the Grammar School stream through sheer luck really I think that’s when I enjoyed it. And my brother, younger brother he hated the Grammar School but I liked it and I liked this teacher, Mr Fowles and Miss Graham and all different people. I loved it. Yeah.
CS: His younger brother was six and a half years younger.
PT: I didn’t do particularly well because I was always going out with this girl or that girl. I had a girl from when I was at Grammar School [laughs] yeah.
CS: His, his —
MC: A bit of a lad were you?
CS: His young brother, his younger brother —
PT: A lad yeah.
CS: Was in the military police.
PT: Yeah.
CS: So he was there in Germany when they had the trials you know for the —
MC: Oh yeah, Nuremberg —
CS: Yeah. That’s right.
PT: I probably missed a lot out really.
CS: So what are you going to tell us about the ATA?
PT: Not a —
MC: Yes. It was ATA, wasn’t it? Yeah. Air Transport Auxiliary I think it was. Yeah. I mean they were good pilots some of them.
PT: Pardon?
MC: They were good pilots some of them.
PT: Oh yeah. They had to pilot anything. They would jump into a Spitfire or a Lancaster. They were good.
MC: Yeah. Well thanks very much for your interview, Peter.
PS: Shall I put that —
MC: Thank you very much.
PT: You know all these crew members? Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer.
CS: Gunner.
PT: Mid-upper gunner, rear gunner, wireless operator. If you want to, if you want to contact them for any information unfortunately they’ve all gone. They’re dead.
MC: You’re the last one.
PT: So you can’t. You can’t. You can’t say, ‘Is it right what Peter Thomas said?’ I’m the last one.
MC: I believe every word you said Peter.
PT: I mean they were, they had their moments, you know. I mean Peter’s told me things about dropping food over Holland when I never thought anything about it but they were, they lost aircraft there hadn’t they Peter?
PS: Yes. According to the book on Operation Manna.
MC: Yeah. They lost three.
PS: Three Lancasters on that.
PT: And I did —
PS: They collided I think.
CS: Collided.
PT: I did two. It did two to the Hague. To the Hague.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And, and we I don’t know just which. I tell you what we did one to Juvencourt.
MC: Oh yeah.
PT: And we brought, we stayed overnight and then we brought a lot of ex-prisoners. British boys who were prisoners. Prisoners of war.
MC: Yeah.
PT: That was, that’s tragic.
MC: Yeah. Juvencourt.
PT: When you hear of one being lost through stupid pulling at a rip cord and you know you can’t believe how daft people are.
MC: There were a few aircraft lost when the prisoners were brought back.
PT: Anyway, it didn’t affect me.
MC: No.
PT: We only did the one and one’s enough. Well, when we were at Juvencourt we went, we went drinking. These French [robbing] us you know with this cheap wine you know and I can’t, I can’t understand why I finished up on my own and I finished up in an American camp and this, this American said, ‘Oh sure. We’ve got a place for you boy.’ I went and I slept in this American camp and I wasn’t, I were on my own you know. I don’t know where any, we’d been drinking this wine. I didn’t know where the hell I was and this American said, ‘You follow me and I’ll finish you.’ That sort of talk you know. I thought that were wonderful. I really, I enjoyed the Grammar School. You see at the Grammar School in 1940 I’d been there then about four or five years and a lot of the boys they’d been called up and I lost a very good mentor of Harry Marsden who was lost on a ship in, opposite St Nazaire. He was, they battened him down and he was lost. Harry Marsden. He was my mentor. He was the cricket captain. The head of the school. The football captain. If you mentioned Harry Marsden he was in it, you know and we lost him.
MC: He was in everything.
PT: 1942 he was killed. He was killed on this ship. It was an, it was a British warship. I forget the name of the ship and it was outside St Nazaire and it got sunk and they battened it. They saved a lot and they didn’t get, they didn’t get Harry out. He was, he was battened down and that was sad you know when we were going on to another course you know. I mean when we got back from Canada we were at [pause] we were at Millom. Well, we were at Pannal Ash College and they sent us up to Millom and we went back flying on Avro Ansons.
MC: Yeah. So you brought plenty of —
PT: Chicken Rock and up to the islands and back, you know.
MC: You brought plenty of stuff back.
PT: Then we went to, then we were posted to —
MC: Husbands Bosworth.
PT: Husbands Bosworth. Husbands Bosworth, yeah. And that’s where we crewed up and we were on Lancasters.
MC: Yeah.
PT: No. Not Lancasters. Wellingtons. And that’s when we went and converted on to —
MC: Lancasters.
PT: Lancasters. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So when you came back from Canada you brought a load of stuff back with you from Canada. Cigarettes and stuff like that.
PT: When I came back from, when I was in Moncton they said, we had a, we had a kit bag. A Canadian. And a Canadian kit bag and they said, ‘If you want to get the maximum amount on board ship,’ he said, ‘You’ll have to buy a Canadian, not a Canadian one but a special one they had for erks like me. And it were a bag. It stood about that high and of course you didn’t need the others but I had that many cigarettes and stuff and bottles of cream for my mother that I put this this big kit bag and I had a pack. What did they call it? Like a —
MC: A rucksack.
PT: Knapsack. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And I put this big one, I got somebody to lift it up and it lifted on like this and it were, it were about like this you know and when we got to the ship, when we got to the ship you know I was just hoping that we would have just gone up one step and on to the ship you know. And we went up this gantry you know. Up and up and up with this and when I was [laughs] when I got to where I was supposed to be I were absolutely knackered with this. With this big kit bag you know full of cigarettes and bottles of cream for my mother and stuff like that. Yeah. I enjoyed that. There were moments when you were a bit fed up you know and I mean I got walloped with a master who was, he also hit me but he’d been reported in a magazine that he’d hit a girl the same way. He just, for some, I didn’t know what I’d done wrong and he just whacked me across the face and Geoffrey my younger brother said, ‘He did the same to me.’ And then in this magazine, “Reunion,” this girl said she got whacked with him. He were a bully. He was a bully.
CS: Dad —
[recording paused]
MC: So I’ll just finish up by saying thank you for the interview anyway Peter. It’s much enjoyable. I’m, I thank you very much for doing the interview.
PT: Yeah.
MC: It’s been very good. Very entertaining.
PT: It was good, was it?
MC: Yeah.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Peter Thomas
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-02
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AThomasPG180302
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:33:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Devon
England--Harrogate
England--London
England--Norfolk
England--Rutland
England--Yorkshire
Scotland
Canada
Ontario
Ontario--Toronto
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
North America--Niagara Falls
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Peter was born in Nelson, Lancashire and had two brothers. He was sixteen when he left school in 1940 and got a job until joining the Royal Air Force in 1943. He went to London Air Crew Reception Centre before going to Initial Training Wing at RAF Paignton. He then moved to Cambridge where he spent time on Tiger Moths. He was told he would be a navigator and from there he went to Liverpool to sail to Canada and start his training before going to Moncton receiving centre and then on to Toronto. On one occasion Peter flew over Niagara Falls. After training Peter got shipped back to Great Britain, arriving in Scotland before going to Pannal Ash College. He then moved to the operational training unit at RAF Husbands Bosworth where crews were formed. The crew went to the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Woolfox Lodge to train on Lancasters with 149 Squadron. They were then posted to RAF Methwold. When training on Wellingtons they had to make an emergency landing due to loss of an engine. He also recalled a trip in a Mosquito when the pilot crashed the aircraft but no one was injured. The crew was sometimes designated to take aerial photographs and was also involved with Operation Exodus and Operation Manna. Peter was demobbed as a warrant officer. After the war Peter and his family did a lot of camping. He said he had enjoyed everything he had done in life. Peter thought that Bomber Command did not received the recognition it deserves.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
149 Squadron
aircrew
crash
crewing up
forced landing
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Mosquito
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Husbands Bosworth
RAF Methwold
RAF Paignton
RAF Woolfox Lodge
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/608/8877/AMcDonaldEA150713.2.mp3
691ba5094bf362ae14e81e637e868c57
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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McDonald, Edward Allan
E A McDonald
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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McDonald, EA
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. Two oral history interviews with Edward Allan McDonald (1922 - 2020, 1076170, Royal Air Force), a memoir, his log book, documents and photographs. He flew 28 operations as a rear gunner with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Edward Allan McDonald and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-13
2015-09-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock. The interviewee is Alan McDonald and the interview is taking place at Skellingthorpe on the 13th of July 2015. Right, Alan just tell me a bit about where you were born like where you were born. When and where.
AM: Yeah. I’ll give you that information.
MC: Yeah if you will. Yeah. Go ahead. Please.
AM: I were born in Hull.
MC: Yeah. When was that?
AM: That would be the 27th of the 9th 1922.
MC: Tell us a bit about your early days at school and, you know —
AM: Well my early days at school were, I liked the teacher that I was under, one of the teachers anyway. And he says, Come out,’ what had happened was the old thing that was very common was to have an elastic band and blotting paper and double a piece of blotting paper about that width, double it over and you’d aim it at, so you’d hold it in your teeth, aim it at somebody from behind aim it at somebody you wanted to clobber and someone had done this and they’d missed the person they’d aimed at and hit the teacher with it. He was facing the blackboard. Mr Upton. And he says, ‘Come out McDonald.’ because I had done it a few times but on that particular occasion I hadn’t. So he says, I said, ‘It wasn’t me sir.’ So he said, ‘I said come out McDonald.’ So I went out. He said, ‘Hold your hand out.’ I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I’m not going to get punished for something I haven’t done.’ So he said, ‘I said hold your hand out.’ He’d got the cane in his hand. So he grabbed, grabbed my hand so I thought well there’s only one thing to do and I kicked him on the shin and he let go because I’d kicked him on the shin and I ran out the room then and I ran home. Anyroad, I went the next morning. He says, ‘Come on. We’re friends.’ He said, ‘I’ve an apology to make to you.’ He said, ‘I don’t know what you’re going to say.’ I says ‘No,’ I says, ‘Well it wasn’t me sir.’ He said, ‘I know. I found out who it was and I’m sorry for putting you to the — ’ Well ‘I’m sorry then for kicking you.’ Now I know that so I got sat down and I was in good books with Mr Upton and after the war I went to do the electrical work on a brand new school they were building at a place called Longcroft which is just north of Beverley and we worked on that place from start to finish and each day when we got off the bus from Hull, well at that time I was living at Sutton, Hull which is part of Hull like you have — where are we here? We’re —
MC: Skellingthorpe from Lincoln.
AM: We’re Skellingthorpe and Lincoln. They’re more or less joined together the same. So was Sutton to Hull. It was part of Hull. A stranger wouldn’t know they were out of Hull if they went to Sutton. And anyway I used to each day go to work at this place at the other side of Beverley, catch a bus and where I got off the bus we had quite a way to walk and each day I saw him. And each day when I saw him he’s be like this — he’d get his hand on it and rub his shin in passing [laughs].
MC: So how old were you when you left? Left that school?
AM: Well I as I left on the day I was fourteen. I didn’t do very well at school but that, that was a bad thing really because I wanted to be aircrew and when I went to the recruiting office he says, ‘What do you want to do? What do you want to be?’ I said, ‘I’d like to be a pilot.’ So he says, ‘Just a minute,’ and he looked, ‘You haven’t a chance,’ So I says, ‘Why is that?’ He said, ‘You’ve not done very well at school,’ he said, ‘And if you haven’t got a secondary education you’re no good for air crew.’ So I said, ‘Oh well I shall have to do something about it if I can.’ So I’d joined up now and I went, I went to the electrical school. I failed. I went from there to a place called Nutts Corner in Ireland which was a Coastal Command station.
MC: Can I just go back a little bit? When you left school at fourteen what did you do between then and becoming —
AM: When I left school at fourteen —
MC: Becoming old enough to join the air force?
AM: I went, I went around the town looking to see if anybody wanted an apprentice and I went to a place called Booker and Tarran’s. Booker and Tarran, the name Tarran in Hull was as common a name as what Churchill is to the average person. Tarran’s were a well-known firm. There was, I think, I’m not sure about this but I’m going to think I’m right when I say there were seven sons of Tarrans — RG Tarran, SG Tarran, Martin Tarran, Ken Tarran and I don’t know the others, but Ken Tarran and Martin Tarran were the boss of the firm I went to. They were, they owned the firm and he says, ‘What did you want?’ He came to the office to see what I, as I was a boy, I was fourteen and I was in short trouFsers. What did you want? So he says, ‘And you want to be an electrician?’ So I said, ‘Yes I do.’ So he said, ‘Well how old are you and when do you leave school?’ I said, ‘I’ve left school.’ So he says, ‘Oh when did you leave school?’ I said, ‘Today. I’m fourteen today.’ So I’d not said anything at school. I just simply went to this firm Booker and Tarrans and Ken Tarran says to me, ‘Well why didn’t you ask your dad to come with you or get you fixed up with a job?’ I says, ‘My dad was dead when I was four.’ So he said, ‘Why what happened to your dad?’ I said, ‘Oh,’ I said, he was a blacksmith. He came down from Wallsend, Newcastle area through to Hull and he was supposed to be playing for Hull City as a footballer. And he was driving his motorbike and side car which was a Harley Davidson motorbike sidecar to his work at what they called Springhead in Hull which is a railway siding. It’s a big one too. And enroute to going to work with his motorbike and side car a crane swung a railway line across the road and it fell off the crane and fell on my father and his motorbike. And he ended up in hospital in the Hull Royal Infirmary which is no longer there now, it was pulled down. But my mother had been to see him like say maybe tonight and they said, ‘Would you bring his clothes in the morning? He’s coming out.’ So my mother the next morning took his clothes for him to come out the hospital and the nurse says to my mother, ‘What have you brought his clothes for?’ So she said, ‘He’s coming out this morning.’ She said, ‘He isn’t. He died during the night.’ So, apparently he’d got hypostatic pneumonia. I think I’ve got that word right. I’ve tried to anyway. I may be wrong with it but anyroad it was something of the description that I’ve given. And from there onwards my mother had to go to the coroner’s court, and at the coroner’s court my mother was questioned could she do this, could she do that, could she do the other. Yes. The answer was yes to all the questions he asked. He said, ‘Well in that case you don’t need compensation. You can work for a living. So if you get yourself a job you won’t need compensation.’ So she didn’t get any. And she had to go to work and went to work at Reckitts in Hull which was a well-known firm then. I don’t know if they still are but it was a well-known firm and that’s where my mother went to work packing starch.
MC: You, so you worked, you worked at this firm until you joined the air force?
AM: I worked from, I got the job at Booker and Tarrans which was down Waltham Street which is in the centre of the town and I was apprenticed with them until I finished my time. So —
MC: How old were you then?
AM: Well I’d come out the air force and I had a certain length of time to do and I had to do this certain length of time at apprentice’s rates.
MC: Oh I see. So you joined the air force part way through your apprenticeship.
AM: Yes I did.
MC: Ah yeah so —
AM: And I joined. I went to Henlow, well I started off at Padgate
Other: Yes.
AM: And that would be 1940, and 1940 I went to Henlow. No. No. No. I didn’t. I went to Morecambe. January 1940 I went to Morecambe to do my square bashing and then from Morecambe I went through to Henlow and I took the electrical course there and I didn’t, I didn’t pass. I failed. And from there I went then to Northern Ireland. I went to Nutts Corner and they put me on duty. On flare path duty there which, I liked that job. That’s working with flying control and I was in the spotter box at the start of the runway. That was a good, good number. And then after that I got another job. I got onto the — now what do they call it now? A dummy, a dummy aerodrome anyway for Jerry to bomb and I used to look after the diesel. What do you call them?
Other: The flares.
AM: Hmmn?
Other: The flare path?
AM: No. No it wasn’t. It was a dummy flare path.
Other: Oh a dummy flare path. Yeah.
AM: It was in bogs.
Other: Yes.
AM: And that was up in a place called [Sleavan Lecloy?] which wasn’t far from between Lisburn and Stonyford. And I liked that job as well. It was good. I did quite well in the air force. Now then, I used to, I plagued the warrant officer, station warrant officer, I wanted to be air crew. He said, ‘I’ve told you you can’t be aircrew because you’ve not, you’ve not got a secondary education and you haven’t done very well at school either.’ So I said, ‘Well I still want to be aircrew.’ So I said, ‘Can’t you fix me up with a job anywhere in the aircraft?’ So, I didn’t realise the qualifications necessary then. Anyway, he said, ‘I’ll see what I can do.’ So I’d been that many times he said his hair was beginning to fall out. Anyway, I was carrying on from there. The tannoy went. Would I report to the station education officer? So I thought station, what would I want him for? So I went into the station and found the location of the station education officer and went to see him, ‘Oh you’re the one that’s causing all the trouble.’ So I said, ‘What trouble’s that?’ He said, ‘With the station warrant officer. You keep going to him. You want to be aircrew.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Well’ he said, ‘If you’re really sincere and you really mean what you say I’ll set you some exams. And if you pass the exams that I set you, if you do, you will do if you want to be air crew and we’ll soon find out whether you do or not.’ So I had to go to him for some tuition first. After the tuition I sat for the exams. He said, ‘You’ve passed.’ No he didn’t, he said, ‘You have matriculated.’ Now, I’d never heard the word in my life before and I didn’t know what the word matriculate meant and I was later on to find out that it was to —
Other: Oh dear Alan.
AM: It was to qualify to go to university from what he’d said. And so he said —
Other: Good.
AM: ‘You’ve one further step to go yet. You’ve to go to RAF headquarters in Belfast and you’ve to pass an exam there and so you’ll go there. It’ll be arranged, you’ll soon be notified. You’ll go there and if you don’t pass there you don’t go to aircrew. If you pass there you’ll go for aircrew.’ So I went there and I was there for a fortnight at RAF headquarters. And during the course of me being there unwittingly I was causing a laugh but I didn’t realise I was at the time, because a certain lady says — when I arrived there there was a WVS van outside the, it’s a place as big as Buckingham Palace nearly, this place where the headquarters were. It was a huge place and I went to the WVS van. She said, ‘Is your name McDonald?’ I said, ‘Why? What do you want?’ I said, ‘I’ve only just arrived. You’re not mistaking me for somebody are you?’ She says, ‘McDonald?’ So I said, ‘Yes. McDonald.’ She says, ‘Oh. Well your tea and your cake’ which was tuppence, a penny for your cake and a penny for your cup of tea, that’s what it was then and I’d got the tuppence out to pay. She said, ‘Don’t waste your money. It’s paid for.’ So I says, ‘No.’ I said, ‘There’s some mistake.’ I said, ‘I’m not the only McDonald in the world. There’s plenty more of us.’ I said, ‘It must be somebody else. Not me.’ She says, ‘You. You’ve come from a Coastal Command station haven’t you?’ I said, ‘Yes I have.’ She said, ‘Well it’s you.’ So, so anyway I carried on and what actually happened was I went into the room. There was two big, two doors at the side of this room and these rooms they had doors which were that thick, nearly six inches thick, the doors. Heavy, huge heavy doors. She says, ‘You want the door on the left and if you go in there there’s seventeen WAAFs and you will make three airmen.’ So I says, ‘Oh is that where we’re having — ‘
Other: That’s a challenge
AM: ‘Having our tea and cakes?’ She said, ‘Yes that’s where you’re having your tea and cake.’ Now this WAAF came to me and she says, ‘Here you are Mac.’ I thought, ‘How do you know me?’ I couldn’t fathom this out. She said, ‘Here’s your tea and your cake.’ So I said, ‘Well they told me I haven’t to buy one because somebody had bought me one.’ I said, ‘Do you know me?’ She said, ‘Yes.’ I says, ‘I don’t know you.’ So she says, ‘Oh never mind.’ She says, ‘I’m paying for the tea and the cake.’ ‘Look,’ I said, ‘You’re, I’m an LAC. An LAC denoted I wasn’t AC1. I wasn’t AC2. I was the next one up.
Other: You knew what was what.
AM: Leading Aircraft man.
Other: Yeah.
AM: And I was LAC. I said, ‘You can’t afford to be paying for tea and cakes for me.’ I said, ‘I’m an LAC.’ I said, ‘You’re only an AC1 or an AC2.’
Other: Yeah.
AM: So she says, ‘I’m paying for your tea and your cake.’ I said, ‘You’re not.’ I says, ‘I’m paying for it. You’re not going to.’ I said, ‘What do you think kind of a name I’ll get taking money off a WAAF that’s not even the same rank as me?’ So she says, ‘I’m paying for the tea and the cake.’ So I says, ‘Well I’ll pay for it tomorrow then.’ She said, ‘You won’t.’ I said, ‘I will.’ So anyroad, each day it went on like this until it came to the day before I was due to go back to my station which was the Thursday. I were there for a fortnight. And at the, the, on the Thursday I said, ‘Now look here,’ I says, ‘You’ve been paying for my tea and cakes each day now for a fortnight.’ I said, ‘Let me give you a lump sum for the lot,’ I said, ‘And then I don’t owe you anything.’ I said, ‘You’re going to get me talked about. An LAC taking money off a WAAF that’s a lower rank than he is. What kind of a person am I gonna be?’ So this WAAF stood up. She says, ‘Stop playing green will you.’ So I said, ‘What are you on about stop playing green?’ I said, ‘I don’t know what you’re talking about. Why am I playing green? What does playing green mean?’ She said, ‘You’re after that castle.’ So I said, ‘A castle? What castle are you on about?’ She said, ‘You know what it is and you’re playing green.’ So I said, ‘I don’t know what you’re talking about. How am I playing green?’ I says, ‘This WAAF here has been paying for my tea and cakes and then she won’t let me pay.’ I said, ‘And she’s on a lower rank then me.’ I said, ‘I’m an LAC,’ and I said, ‘She’s only an AC1 or AC2. I don’t know which.’ So she says, ‘Oh you are putting it on.’ So I says, ‘Putting what on?’ She said, ‘You’re trying to make out you don’t know what I’m talking about,’ which I didn’t. I hadn’t the foggiest idea. She said, ‘You know that’s the queen’s sister.’ So I says, ‘It never is. What are you giving me that?’ With this this WAAF that had been giving me my tea and that she went out and slammed the door. And that was the end of the connection. God, I was back to camp the next day but that’s that was that little story.
Other: That would have been, so, Margaret Rose. The queen’s sister.
AM: No. This is Queen Elizabeth’s sister.
Other: Yes.
AM: During the war.
Other: Yes, that was Margaret Rose.
AM: Oh I don’t know.
Other: That was her sister.
AM: I couldn’t say.
MC: So you got accepted for aircrew then.
AM: Yes, I got, I passed for air crew there and within a few days I was off to —
Other: With notoriety.
AM: St John’s Wood in London and whilst I was there they bombed, I think it was the Palais de Dance.
Other: Right.
AM: Somewhere there got bombed while we were there. And I enjoyed being there. I was there a fortnight I think it was. And then from there I went to — St John’s Wood we went to Evanton in Scotland.
MC: By that time had you —
Other: Evanton. Sorry.
MC: Can I, by that time, can I ask you had you been selected for air gunner? Was it decided what you were going to do?
AM: Yes I was selected to go as air gunner and I went to Evanton in Scotland. Now it’s this is what, I got off the station at Inverness and the station, whatever he was, says to me, ‘Are you puzzled? Are you lost?’ I said, ‘Well I don’t know which platform to be on.’ So he said, ‘Where do you want to be?’ So I says, ‘Evanton.’ ‘Nowhere here called Evanton. Let’s have a look at your pass.’ So I give him my pass. ‘You mean Everton.’ Well, I said, ‘Where’s the E R in it? There’s no E R in it. It’s E V A N T O N.’ Everton. Evanton. So he says, ‘In here they call it Everton. So you want to be on that platform there.’ So I got on the platform to Evanton. You go through Evanton and you come to where I was. This station. And I was flying on Avro Ansons with Polish pilots and we did gunnery practice from there firing at a wooden tank on the beach. We flew up the mountainside there. There was a statue at the top. What it was about I don’t know. And the Polish pilots used to fly, there was wires across this this mountain and we used to fly beneath the wires going up the mountain side to the top. To the monument. And then he’d just miss the monument, this was in Avro Ansons, and I did my training there for gunnery. I did photo, photo, photo gunning. Oh what do they call it now? It has a name. Anyroad you had a camera in your door and you did photography with that with a camera gun. And I went from there to Market Harborough and at Market, no it wasn’t Market Harborough I don’t think. But it I think it might have been Market Harborough but the name of the place was [pause] its where you crewed up. We didn’t have a crew and Johnny Meadows, he’s on this photograph here this [rustling of papers]. Now this is him. That man there that’s Johnny Meadows. He became our mid-upper and I was the rear gunner. That’s me there. That man there was Britain’s, one of Britain’s top dancers. They called him Taggerty. There he is. That man there was a dancing champion of Britain. Taggerty. That man. Anyway —
MC: So that was. What were you flying then at Market Harborough, you said?
AM: Market Harborough was flying Wellingtons there. We crashed in the Wellington there. What actually happened was we took off and I said to the skipper, ‘There’s a strong smell of petrol in the rear turret.’ So he said, ‘Well, I don’t know where it’s coming from Mac but everything’s registering. Everything’s perfect up front.’ We was on night bombing. Practice bombing. And so the second time I said, ‘It’s getting stronger skipper.’ So the third time I said, ‘It’s getting stronger still.’ And the fourth time I said, ‘I’m soaked to the skin in petrol skipper.’ So he says, ‘Oh well we’ll make it back to base. We’ll cancel the bombing and go back to base.’ So it was night time and we were now in funnels and halfway down in funnels we’d passed over some buildings of the ‘drome which was Market Harborough and all of a sudden the aircraft did an about turn. The engine cut out. One of the engines cut out and of course immediately we turned around and we were now going backwards now, still going down and we landed in a field and we crossed three ditches and the undercarriage stood up to the thumping it got at each ditch that we crossed and we landed up in a cornfield. Now, I now had turned my turret on the beam, opened the turret door at the back of me — two, two doors and opened them and I’m getting my parachute on and the parachute caught on something and it bellowed out and we were still going forward but what happened the parachute went that way. It went starboard to the starboard side, dragged me out the turret and dragged me across this cornfield. Anyroad, I got up and got the parachute and put it all together. The skipper says to me, ‘What have you been doing over there?’ So I said, ‘Well’ I said, ‘We touched down,’ I said, ‘And we were bouncing along and,’ I said, ‘My parachute caught on something, I don’t know what and,’ I said, ‘It bellowed out and I said, ‘I got dragged out the rear turret.’ I was sat right way around for it to happen because I was soaked to the skin with petrol you see and I thought now if we’re going to start catching fire I don’t want to be anywhere near where there’s fire. I’ll be the first one out. Anyroads, I picked up my parachute and I went to where the skipper was stood and they were all congregating there and he says, ‘What happened to you then Mac?’ He said, ‘Well you stink of petrol.’ I said, ‘Yeah,’ I said, ‘They’ll be having me up for pinching aircraft petrol.’ [laughs] He says —
MC: And that was in Wellingtons at —
AM: That was a Wellington. Anyroads they —
Other: That was in England?
AM: Pardon?
Other: That was in England?
MC: Yeah. Market Harborough.
AM: Market Harborough yeah.
MC: Yeah. That would be 14 OTU.
AM: It may be in —
MC: Yeah.
AM: May be marked in there. I don’t know. That was, that was that. And anyroads we were all safe and that was the main thing. Nobody was damaged. Except the farmer came out and started saying to the pilot, which was Hugh Skilling, he says, he used a bit of bad language. He says, and I thought you’d better just watch your tongue because Hughie could, he could use these could Hughie. I thought — you’re going to get the wrong end of Hughie.
MC: What was the outcome of this crewing up?
AM: Pardon?
MC: Crewing up. You never. Where did you crew up?
AM: We crewed, I think, did we crew, I’m just not sure. I can’t remember whether it was Market Harborough or where it was but it maybe tells you on there. I just don’t remember.
MC: Yeah.
AM: But —
MC: But obviously you got together with Hughie and therefore —
AM: But anyway we were flying in from Market Harborough and was swapping between Market Harborough and Husband Bosworth. The two stations. One day we was flying from Market Harborough and another day we was back at Husbands Bosworth and then we were back again and then from Husbands Bosworth we went down to [pause] to Newark.
Other: Winthorpe.
AM: Winthorpe yeah.
MC: The Conversion Unit.
AM: Yeah and it was quite, we nearly killed a WAAF there. What happened there we was coming in to land with a Stirling. We’d been on a cross country and it was daytime and coming in to land we was orbiting the ‘drome and as we orbited the ‘drome it was, ‘Select undercarriage Fred.’ That was Fred Clarke the flight mechanic.
Other: Yeah.
AM: They selected the undercarriage. One wheel went down and one wheel went up. One wheel went up inside the wing, inside the engine nacelle there and the other one went down and what happened was it pushed the dinghy out.
Other: Good lord.
AM: The dinghy inflated and all the gear in it and it went —
Other: Jesus.
AM: In this manner going down, as it went down on to the ’drome. Now, I watched it go down and as I was watching it go down there was a WAAF walking across the ’drome, the grass. And this here, this here dinghy it actually just missed her by a few inches. Not a foot but inches and it must have burst behind her. Well what happened to her after that I don’t know. I don’t know whether she fainted or what happened but anyroads I never did know the outcome of what happened to her but it must have made her jump to say the least.
MC: So you were in Stirlings there?
AM: I was in Stirlings there.
MC: Yeah and then you went into —
AM: And with the Stirling we went up then to Woodbridge. Landed with that —
Other: Oh yes.
AM: And then we had several other. We went on a leaflet raid over Germany with the Stirling and we was with the bomber stream. In front of the bomber stream I would think. It’s in there anyway. And we came back from that raid and what happened. We had another do with a Stirling. We had one or two dos with that thing. Nobody liked them. They used to call them flying coffins, the Stirling. That were the common name they used in the air force by air crew because we was over the Wash one day and we got into a cloud there and we were icing up. And it was summer time. And we was icing up and the skipper says, ‘Get ready to jump.’ So of course I opened my bomb doors not my bomb doors, my turret doors.
Other: Turret.
AM: And I was sat ready for jumping out and I could see water below us. I thought oh I don’t fancy that. But anyway we suddenly came into an area where there was a huge gap in the cloud and the sun was coming through. ‘Don’t jump,’ he says, ‘Don’t anybody jump.’ He says, ‘Stay where you are. Take your, reposition yourself wherever you are,’ and we all got back in to the, well I had just got the doors closed and got back in because the ice was all falling off the aircraft whilst we was in this here big hole in the cloud. So that was one episode and of course you couldn’t, with a Stirling, you were lucky if you could get off the ground with them they were that unreliable. Terrible things. Anyroad, that was it. We had one or two little dos with Stirlings and I have a feeling we went back again with another Stirling for some reason but anyway we didn’t, we went back. We had a full, we were on a Lanc and we had a full bomb load on, a full petrol load and we got to the end of the runway and it’s the first time I’ve heard metal tearing and it’s a name, a sound I’ll never forget. If I ever hear it again I can be in a dark room and I’ll know what it is. But we heard this here tearing sound and we got airborne and we knew what had happened ‘cause the wheel and all the lot were just flopping about. All the undercarriage was just hanging by some, something thin. Whether it was wire or, or some metals, you know, it wasn’t very heavy metal whatever it was and it was hanging down from the undercarriage area. And we were told to circle, orbit the ‘drome until contacted and we did this while the bomber stream was taking off and when they were taking off we were told, ‘Make out for the North Sea, jettison your bombs and then come back.’ So we went out to the North Sea to — there’s an area where we, we dropped bombs and we went out there. And we couldn’t get the bomb doors open because the bomb doors and the undercarriage were on the same hydraulic circuit and the fluid from the, the just a minute what do they call it um it’s a pump, hydraulic pump. Oh it’ll come to me in a minute. I’ll carry on talking and then it’ll maybe come back to me, the name of it. It was just on the starboard side about nine foot inside on the starboard side of the Lanc was this here recuperation cylinder I think they called it.
Other: It went bang when the clack valve worked.
AM: Pardon?
Other: It used to go bang when the clack valve.
AM: Oh I don’t know.
Other: When the pressure was up the top. Yes.
AM: Oh I don’t know about that. But —
Other: Oh dear.
AM: Anyway, to cut a long story short we tried to get this hydraulic cylinder to operate. To empty or to, to function the bomb doors. We couldn’t get them open. And so we tried everything. So the bomb aimer says, ‘Skipper I’ve an idea if you let me do it.’ So he said, ‘What’s that?’ He said, ‘I’ll drop a thousand pounder.’ I think he said a thousand pounder but normally it were five hundred but anyroad whether it was five, I’ll say five hundred to be on the safe side. He says, ‘I’ll drop a five hundred pound bomb on the bomb doors while they’re being operated to open.’ So he dropped the, I’ll say a thousand pounder, dropped it on the bomb doors. No. They didn’t open so he says, ‘Well, what you can do Skipper,’ he says, ‘With that thousand pounder on the, laying on the bomb door it’s got the safety pin in,’ he said, ‘If you do a tight bank and do it a — centrifugal force will force the doors open.’ Didn’t work. So he says, ‘Well can we drop another one at the other end of the bomb bay?’ He said, ‘That’s up at the front,’ He said, ‘If we drop one at the back that’s two bombs in the bomb bay hanging on the doors and if you do banking with them then it should, should work.’ No. It still didn’t work. So, anyroads we tried all sorts of manoeuvres one after the other and we were, it’s in the book there. I don’t know whether it was two or three hours there trying to get the doors, bomb doors open. It’s there somewhere and anyway it wouldn’t work so I, I made a suggestion, I says, ‘Can I butt in Hughie?’ He said, ‘Why? What did you want to say?’ I said, ‘Well we haven’t tried something have we?’ So he said, ‘What’s that?’ I said, ‘We think that the fluid out of the hydro — the —
Other: Accumulator.
AM: Accumulator.
Other: Yeah.
AM: Has — it’s emptied and it’s working trying to open the bomb doors on an empty system’. I said, ‘Might I make a suggestion? Maybe somebody’s not agreeing, going to agree with what I say but I’ll say it.’ I said, ‘If we all use the elsan bucket and Johnny and I,’ that’s the mid-upper gunner and I —
Other: Pee in the hydraulic system [laughs]
AM: If we can pour it in to the recuperation cylinder —
Other: Yeah.
AM: It might work. I said, ‘I know it’s water and it has hydraulic fluid in it but,’ I said, ‘It might work. Can we try it?’ ‘We’ll try anything Mac.’ Because we’d been back to base and we’d had instructions to get rid of the aircraft. Point it out to sea and —
Other: Yeah.
AM: Bale out over land and you’ll be picked up. And we didn’t want to lose G George. Anyroads, what happened was we all used the elsan bucket and we took the elsan bucket to the hydraulic —
Other: Yes.
AM: Unit there. Took the bung off the top, unscrewed it and we gently poured the fluid into it and it filled it. We said, ‘Try the, try the bomb doors.’ Opened. Come open.
Other: You see? Genius.
AM: So anyroad, anyroads that, we got rid of the bombs. Now, we went up to Woodbridge and we left the Lanc there. It was left there with a lot more Lancs and stuff there.
MC: So that story was when, when you was with 50 Squadron?
AM: Yeah.
MC: Yeah prior to that you’d obviously been to Lancaster Finishing School had you?
AM: Yeah, we’d been to Lanc, yeah, we went to Syerston. Syerston. That’s where we went to. I missed that one out. Yeah that’s Syerston. That was on the way from Newark to Leicester. When you leave Newark it’s on, comes out to the Six Hills Road I think they call it.
Other: Yes. I remember it being built.
AM: Yeah. I’d forgotten that.
MC: So your first operations at, on 50 Squadron, what were they like? You know, can you remember your first operation?
AM: Yeah. That’s what when we went to an oil refinery. Homburg. I think that was the name of it. Homburg.
MC: Yeah.
AM: And we went there and it’s the first time I’d ever been up on a raid and I put the turret on the beam and I stood up hanging out of the turret because the sheet was, you know, they took the sheet out in front of you. The side ones were in but not in front of you. Well I could get outside the turret and I leaned out and with the turret being on the beam the wing came up and I could see above the wing now and I could see it. I thought, ‘Are we going to go through that?’ [laughs] I thought we’ll never get through that. Anyroad, we got through without a scratch. I couldn’t believe it but that’s what happened. That was the first one. Homburg. But we did get clobbered eventually and that was in a Lanc and we had a few episodes.
MC: What about Trondheim? You mentioned Trondheim.
AM: Trondheim. Yeah. Trondheim. We were, I should say we were in the first aircraft there and when we got there it was one of those nights where the moon made it like daylight. It was, you could see miles and miles and when we got to Trondheim the Northern Lights were on and we saw the Northern Lights. I heard them talking up front, ‘Come up front and have a look at the Northern Lights,’ and we were approaching Trondheim. And oh, it was lit up lovely. It was a nice sight from up there. I really enjoyed it and I wouldn’t have known but for them to say because I mean I’m sat with my back to where they were looking but anyroads. I put her on the beam and looked out the turret on the port side looking out there and I could see all the coloured colours of the — what do they call it?
Other: Northern Lights.
AM: Northern lights. That’s it.
Other: Yeah.
AM: Now then we’re turning in now to bomb the target. You could see the target easy. We were low as well and we were coming in and all of a sudden we were heading in to bomb and all of a sudden the Germans set off these here smoke —
Other: Yeah.
AM: Smoke flares. And you couldn’t see the target so we had to — we were told to abandon the raid. Return to base. Now, that’s when one of them landed at Skell, at the base where they’d come from, where we’d all come from — Skellingthorpe. And that’s where they made a heavy landing and I heard them talking about this, by that was a rough landing, whoever made that and anyroad we didn’t go back to Skellingthorpe that day we landed at Carnaby. We was getting short of petrol so we had to make a forced landing at Carnaby. And then the next day we’d got topped up and we went on back to base and the same day as we were supposed to be back at Skellingthorpe and we landed at Carnaby that aircraft landed, made a bad landing and when they got to the dispersal, I think it was a 61 Squadron aircraft and what happened was the crew got on board the, on board the aircraft and, the ground crew that is but the air crew went to get their gear put away to the, to the locker room and then they went to the mess. Well whether they were at the mess or the locker room I don’t know where they were when there was a big bang and up went the aircraft with all the ground staff on. They were delayed action bombs you see.
Other: Enough said.
MC: You, you did a couple of trips to Munich.
AM: Yeah I did two trips to Munich. Yeah.
MC: Long trip?
AM: Yeah. They were long trips and the story with that really because what happened was [pause] where are we — I’ve got a picture here somewhere. There were two ladies. When we come to the reunion they were waiting for us, for Ken and I and, where is [pause] oh not there. Oh it must still be in there. Anyway these two ladies, one of them said, ‘I understand you was on Munich raid.’ And I said, ‘Yeah.’ ‘What date?’ And I told her. Got the log book and got the date. ‘Oh that’s when my husband was killed. He was on that raid and he got killed.’ Well from there on it made a connection between us and the two ladies [pause] No, no, that’s a Polish squadron that. They invited me to a Polish squadron and that man there is Tom Wislocki. That man there took me there. He —
MC: So the, I mean obviously a couple of times to Munich. No mishaps with those really. Those raids. What about, I mean the other long one you did was Politz.
AM: Yeah. And Gydnia.
MC: Yeah. Gydnia.
AM: They were both in the Baltic.
MC: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
Other: That’s a long step.
AM: Yeah we got some long trips in. But—
MC: You did your first trip to Mittelland Canal.
AM: Mittelland Canal.
MC: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. That was, that was the trip where we came unstuck because the Mittelland Canal — there was only nine aircraft on that raid and we were one of the nine aircraft. We couldn’t believe it. Normally they say, ‘Would the members of 50 Squadron and 61 Squadron report to the briefing room.’
Other: Yeah.
AM: Well this time they didn’t. They says will the following crew, and they gave them the names of the crew. Ours was Skillings crew. Would they report to the ops block. And I thought well that’s nine crew. Now, one of the nine crew took off and this was to the Mittelland Canal with, from Wing Commander Flint he said, ‘If by chance you don’t get the doings don’t come back. I don’t want to see you. You’ve got to sink this barge. It’s most important because you know how,’ this, I’ll quote his actual words as near as I can remember and his actual words to us at briefing the nine crew he says, ‘You know how good the Tiger tank is? We’ve nothing to touch the Tiger tank. Well the Germans have built another one which is far superior to the Tiger tank and they’ll win the war with it if it gets through. You must sink it. If you don’t sink it you’ve got to bust the banks of the canal.’ This is at night time and you know what Jerry would be doing. He’d be waiting for us. Anyroad, we gets there and we goes in and we bombs. So we, we didn’t get, I don’t recall any anti–aircraft fire on that trip but maybe there was. Maybe we weren’t in the right place. I don’t know what the outcome of it was. But the first aircraft to take off he had a malfunction and ran off the runway so that reduced us now to eight aircraft. Enroute to the target we were, it was a dark night. It was a very bad dark night. It was pitch black and all of a sudden the sky was lit up. There was a Lanc on our port beam and he was on fire. Fire was streaming from his port wing. So Fritz had been underneath firing up. So, in the glow of the fire from him I could see another Lanc between him and us so that was three of us in a line. Now, on the starboard side just a few yards behind us and I mean a few yards, maybe thirty or forty yards, there was another Lanc and so anyroads the next thing I knew another flare, the lights had gone out on that one. I don’t know whether he’d got a fire extinguisher and put it out or whether it had gone down I don’t know. And, now then the one that was in between him and us he now was on fire the same as the previous one so that knocks two off the list and one that gone down at, that knocked three off so it left six aircraft to bomb the target. So the next thing I know the mid-upper screams out, ‘Corkscrew. Port. Go.’ And he screamed out and all of a sudden there was a great noise and [laughs] the turret filled with the fumes. He’d fired a rocket at us, this fighter and the fighter did a head on attack at night time in dark and he come just missing the top of the aircraft. It was a wonder he didn’t take the mid upper with him. And he just come above the top of us, filled the aircraft with the fumes from his rocket and also from the fumes from the aircraft coming to the rear turret and I wanted to fire at him but I thought if I fire at him I’ll hit this Lanc that’s following us and I don’t want to shoot one of ours down. I didn’t mind shooting him down but not, not one of ours. Anyroad, I had to let him go. I think that pilot must have been, he must have been a special pilot because it was absolutely pitch black and it was just a row. A lot of noise and a blur. That’s all you could say it was. You couldn’t, you couldn’t identify it because we were both going in different directions. So that was the, we thought it was a Fokke - Wulf 190. It could easily have been but we never did know the outcome of that. And I think we landed at where did we land from that? That was Mitteland Canal, oh coming back from it. I know now. We landed at Juvincourt in France. What happened was we was coming back and part of our route was over Belgium and over Belgium there was anti-aircraft fire taking place and we ran into this anti-aircraft fire and it blew all the starboard side of the nose off from the nose here on the starboard side which way around are we? Let’s get my bearings —
Other: Flight engineers side.
AM: Pardon?
Other: Flight engineers side.
AM: Yeah. Flight engineers side. Yeah. There we are. It was [pause] yeah, that side there. Yeah. Starboard, yeah, there we are. From, from the turret but right back to the wing that whole sheet was off there and that’s where the bomb aimer was laid looking for fighters.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Through the downward looking piece of Perspex and the shell piece — the, this is common talk amongst those that were involved they said it must have been a piece of shrapnel that size and it had ripped off the whole sheet from that side from the top, from the top of the aircraft to the bottom was ripped off and we were told to bale out. Now, what had happened was the shell that had done that had cut my intercom so I didn’t hear the word, ‘Jump. Jump,’ and I’m still looking. We were in a cloud and we were, when I say in a cloud, in the searchlights and we’re going down and down and down and down and got the controls jammed with a piece of shrapnel. I don’t know if you know what the controls are like inside a Lanc but on the port side of the Lanc there’s a square rod about that square and it runs between two rollers down the port side and that comes from the skipper to the ailerons on the, on the tail and that — a wheel there, then the aileron control and then a wheel there. And this shrapnel had gone in there and the more he was pulling it in to get out the dive the tighter it was getting. So he took the, did the, wasn’t quite so obvious I wouldn’t think but he did, tried it, he put the nose into a steeper dive still. The shrapnel fell out and everybody was bailing out but me and, and the skipper of course. Anyway, we got out. He got her out the dive and what happened after that [pause] a bit a long ago now. Trying to remember what happened.
MC: He obviously managed to put the aircraft down.
AM: Yeah. Oh I know. He put a mayday out. That was it. A mayday. And we got called in to Juvincourt. Well, at Juvincourt we landed there and we were told to be careful because the previous day, I think they’d captured it the previous day, an aircraft had landed. It was a German fighter ‘drome this Juvincourt and a Lancaster had landed there. And it were night time so it would be the night before we were there and a man had come up out of the darkness and stabbed one of the crew to death. And so they sent a man out to us in a jeep or some kind of vehicle. I call it a jeep. Maybe it wasn’t a jeep, maybe, whatever it was and he said that the skipper says to him, ‘What are you carrying that sten gun for?’ He said, ‘Well yesterday,’ he said, ‘We had, last night,’ he said, ‘We had a Lanc land and the crew were stood outside the aircraft and a man come up and stabbed one of the crew to death,’ He said, ‘So I’ve brought the sten gun in case he comes up with you lot. If you, if you, when you lot get out your aircraft you need somebody with you with a gun.’ Well the skipper would have a gun anyway in there but he wouldn’t bring it out with him I don’t suppose but anyroad that’s where we were. So I goes to hand my, I goes to hand my parachute in and, ‘Oh where’s my seven and sixpence?’ So I says, ‘I’ll give you seven and sixpence,’ I said. ‘I told you when I fly over Germany I don’t carry money in my pocket,’ I said. ‘If we get shot down I’m not going to give them my bonus for shooting us down.’ So he says, ‘Well where is your money then?’ I says, ‘It’s back at camp.’ So he said, ‘Well, will it be alright?’ I said, ‘I’ve told the men in the billet if anything happens to me, spend it. Go and,’ and I told them where it is so I said, ‘It’ll be quite safe. They’re a good crowd. Which they were. I said, ‘You go and spend it and have a drink or two on me.’ But anyroads we got back to base and there’s a lot more I could tell you but it would take too long. A lot happened. I could nearly write a book on what happened when we got there at Juvincourt. It was a —
MC: Presumably the aircraft was repaired there was it? And you flew it back?
AM: No. No. It was a write off.
MC: Oh right.
Other: Yeah.
AM: It was scrapped straightaway.
MC: Was that G for George?
AM: And apparently — we went back there again in another Lanc taking prisoners back. Our prisoners. And the first time we landed there they were, we got, I got out the aircraft to see what was going on and a chap, he heard heard me talking. He said, ‘You’re from Hull.’ So I said, ‘Yeah I am.’ So he says, ‘Which is your aircraft?’ I said, ‘This one here’. ‘Can I come in your aircraft?’ So I says, ‘Yeah I think so.’ ‘Skipper? Can this here chap here come, come with us to Hull?’ ‘So he said, he’s from Hull, is he?’ So I said, ‘Yeah.’ He says, ‘And you are?’ So I said, ‘Yeah.’ So I says, ‘Could he go in the turret if I put him on safety?’ Well they were on safety anyway. So he says, ‘Yeah. Ok. You don’t mind do you?’ I said, ‘No. Let him come on.’ So I got him fixed up in the rear turret and closed the doors behind him and oh —
Other: Dear me.
AM: When we landed somewhere down the south of the England, I can’t remember where it was but south of England. Oh I was a pal for life. But I never did find out where he lived in Hull. So that was him.
Other: Lovely.
MC: So one of the last ops you did was to Vallo.
AM: Vallo, yeah.
MC: Yeah. You returned early I gather.
AM: Yeah. We, we had a —
MC: Crash landing.
Other: Boomerang.
AM: Yeah, we had. I can’t remember whether it was engine trouble or some mechanical trouble. Well damaged with shrapnel. That shrapnel was pretty accurate with the Germans. It really was. They were, they were good. They had some good equipment.
Other: Yes.
MC: So how many operations did you finish up doing?
AM: Pardon?
MC: How many operations did you finish up doing?
AM: Well I did twenty eight. I had two more to do and if I’d finished the two — I got clobbered on the twenty eighth one and I was laid unconscious on the floor of the turret and I spoke to the skipper when I come to. I thought I’d better get contacting him, he’ll be wondering what’s happening. So he says to me, he says, ‘Mac was you alright with that shell?’ So I had to put two and two together and I found out that a shell had burst while I was looking out the rear turret and it had knocked me down onto the floor of the turret and I was unconscious. I don’t know how long but I was unconscious on the floor and when I come up, you know, got my senses and I stood up in the turret and felt I felt all over around to see if I had any wounds or anything [laughs] and I hadn’t. And anyroads the intercom was still plugged in and I spoke to the skipper and he says, ‘Why was you disconnected?’ ‘Oh’ I said, ‘The plug come out.’ I said, ‘I’ve put it back in the socket.’ The intercom socket. It hadn’t. So, and I could sense that he didn’t believe me. Anyway, when we landed he said, ‘Mac will you come here. I want you.’ So we were in light now so he says, ‘Face me.’ So I faced him. He says, ‘Medical centre.’ So I said, ‘What for?’ He says, ‘You’re going to the medical centre. Your eyes are in a hell of a state.’ So I says, ‘Oh are they?’ He said, ‘Medical centre.’ I said, ‘No. I’ll be alright skip.’ ‘Mac,’ he said, ‘We rely on you.’ He says, ‘Medical centre.’ I says, ‘No. I don’t want to go skipper.’ He says, ‘Look. I don’t like using my rank but what’s that?’ I said, ‘Squadron leader,’ and I knew what was coming. He says ‘Well, I’m telling you medical centre now, while I’m here.’ And he wouldn’t leave me till he’d seen me go in to the medical centre and I was in bed for a fortnight and then I come out of that and by that time they’d done two ops so they’d finished their tour.
Other: Yeah.
AM: So I’d missed two trips. So that’s why I didn’t do the two trips. The last —
Other: Medical centre.
AM: Yeah. Loafing.
MC: So you did some, obviously you mentioned you went back to Juvincourt. That was to repatriate?
AM: Yeah we went, we went there. We did several different things when we finished flying. We went dropping bombs now the dropping the bombs business it’s been suggested that um that American flyer — what did they call him that got lost. They never found out where he was? It was suggested that he’d been they’d looked up his record and he’d been directed to the area. When we’d come back from a raid we had certain areas where we —
Other: Dumping ground.
AM: Dropped our bombs.
Other: Yeah.
AM: And apparently he’d been flying in a fighter. I don’t know what it was, maybe a Mustang, maybe a, whatever, anyway he’d been directed to fly to this area and if he was flying when they were jettisoning the bombs probably the bombs had got him and there was an article in the paper making this suggestion that, he was — was he a dance band leader? Glen Miller.
Other: Ah.
AM: That was it.
Other: Yes. Yes.
AM: And the suggestion being that he’d flown underneath a Lancaster which was getting rid of its —
Other: Dumping.
AM: Surplus bombs because they iced up you see did the bomb racks. Very often they iced up. I could tell you a story about that but I’dlistenin better not. It would take too much time.
MC: What story is that?
AM: Well what happened with that was this — that this Lancaster come back and dropped the bombs and they think it’s hit, hit Glen Miller and put him in to the ditch and that was the end of him and that was that. Now then as regards the what I was —
MC: About the bomb rack freezing up.
AM: Yeah. What happened was we went on a raid somewhere where there was some mountains and I think it was somewhere east of Munich on, I think so — somewhere in that area but anyroad what happened was when we was going to this area, what happened there, let’s get it — oh I know. We went to bomb the target but enroute to the target we went between, I know now, two mountains, one on the starboard side, one on the port side and as we were going through these mountains between the two I looked down and on the side of one of them was what I took to be a listening post. A German listening post. And now we got past them and we went on to the target. I thought oh if skip had given me permission I’d have given them a good squirt but —
Other: Yeah.
AM: He wouldn’t have done. Not to waste ammunition like that. But anyway we gets to the target, we runs over the target, select bombs down, no bombs dropped. So we went around again. Select bombs. No bombs dropped. So we went around again. No bombs dropped. Went around again. No bombs dropped. So now we’re making way home and we’d got rid of some of the five hundred pounders but the cookie was held up. So now a conversation took place now between the pilot and Dougie which I could hear and he says to Dougie, he said, ‘Dougie I know what you’re going to say but I’m telling you we’ve got to get rid of that cookie.’ He said, ‘If we don’t —’ and there was an intermediate conversation going on, he says, ‘If we don’t drop that cookie we’ll not reach the French coast.’ He said, ‘We’ve been around four times, around this target.’
Other: Yeah.
AM: He says, ‘And we’re getting a bit low on petrol.’ He said, ‘We’ll be lucky now if we get to the French coast never mind carrying a four thousand pounder back with us.’ ‘Well you heard what Wing Commander Flint said.’ So he said, ‘Yes, I did hear what Wing Commander Flint said. He said if you can’t get rid of a four thousand pounder I want to know what you’ve done with it. You’ve got to bring it back.’ So Dougie says, ‘Well I’m saying let’s take it back.’ So Hughie says, ‘Dougie I’m sorry.’ He says, ‘We’ll put it to the crew. What do we do? Drop it or do we go on? What are we to do?’ So he come to me, started with me. He says, ‘Mac, what do you think?’ I said, ‘Drop it.’ ‘Mid-upper?’ ‘Drop it.’ ‘Wireless op?’ ‘Drop it.’ ‘Navigator?’ ‘Drop it.’ ‘Flight engineer?’ ‘Drop it.’ ‘Me?’ That’s the pilot. ‘Drop it.’ So he says, ‘I think you’re outvoted aren’t you Dougie?’ Dougie Cruickshanks they called him. He said, ‘I think you’re outvoted. We’ve got to drop it.’ So he says, ‘Tell, me when you’re ready and you want the bomb doors open and we’ll get rid of that cookie if we can.’ So, we’re going along and Dougie says, ‘Skipper. When we came along here going to the target there’s a listening post here. Can I bomb that? ‘ So he says, ‘Yeah, you can if it gets rid of it.’ So he said, ‘Right.’ So I’m looking out the rear turret to see this here place coming up ‘cause I knew where it was now. I’d seen it going up. So I’m looking for it and it come up and it was lit up. Anyroad, there was such a bang and a crash. The skipper says, ‘Mac,’ he says, ‘Have we been hit? I says, ‘No’ I said, ‘But somebody else has.’ ‘Who?’ I says, ‘Where Dougie dropped the bomb. Where do you think he dropped it?’ So I said, ‘He’s got a bullseye with it.’ So he’d got this here listening post and it wasn’t there now. No lights. Nothing there. So —
Other: Oh dear.
AM: He made a pretty good shot. Mind you it was well up on the mountain side was this here, this here listening post.
Other: Oh dear.
AM: Now then, we gets back but we still had to land. I think we landed at Tangmere somewhere.
Other: Yes.
AM: On the, you’ll see somewhere there where we landed and we had to get petrolled up. When we got back from a raid somewhere. If you know which raid it was we’d come back on you can tell me the name of the target.
MC: When you landed at Tangmere, Mittelland.
AM: Pardon?
MC: Mittelland Canal.
AM: No. That wasn’t the Mittelland Canal. That was another time.
MC: Oh right. It says Tangmere.
AM: The Mittelland Canal was the one, that’s the one where we, where the two aircraft were set on fire at the side of us and where the Jerry come over and fired a rocket at us. That was the Mittelland Canal. North Germany.
MC: So —
AM: We landed somewhere. I think it was at Tangmere or somewhere we landed. Down south of England. Coming back from Munich area somewhere. I don’t think it was on the Munich raid we landed there but it was a raid somewhere up that way.
MC: There was a Munich raid where you landed at Ludford.
AM: Ludford Magna.
Other: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. We landed at several places coming back depending on what sort of a trip we’d had. I mean if you do a lot of corkscrewing and that you’re going to be galloping the petrol down.
MC: I’m sure, yeah. There’s one where you landed at Saffron Underwood.
AM: Grafton Underwood. Yeah.
MC: Grafton Underwood. Yeah.
AM: Yeah. We were fog bound and they had FIDO. We landed there and the Americans, I never let anybody say to me anything bad about them. To my way of thinking the Americans were marvellous and we’ve a lot to thank them for because they treated us like, you’d have thought we were royalty. We landed in the fog on their ‘drome. The food was good and the bloke at the counter says to me, ‘Don’t you like eggs?’ So I said, ‘Yes. Why?’ Well, I said, ‘I’ve got one.’ So he says, ‘You’ve only got one.’ I says, ‘Well can I have two?’ And he said, ‘You can have as many as you want.’ And wherever we landed on an American ‘drome they were absolutely tops. They were a marvellous crowd to me. Wherever we were with the Americans they were good.
MC: So what, so when you finished your tour and you did your, you obviously did Juvincourt, you did some bomb disposal. Where did you go after you’d finished your tour?
AM: Oh we got shifted about. We was at Sturgate. We was at Blyton. We was at Cranwell. And from Cranwell I got — went down to, is it Uxford, Uxbridge the demob centre.
Other: Uxbridge.
AM: Hmmn?
Other: Uxbridge.
AM: Uxbridge yeah. We got debriefed there. Got, not debriefed, got —
MC: Demobbed.
AM: Yeah demobbed from there.
MC: So what did you do after the war then when you —
AM: I went back to me firm that I was with.
MC: Oh you finished your apprenticeship.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: As an electrician.
AM: Yeah. It was a good firm. One of the best firms I worked for.
MC: What are your thoughts about your time in the air force?
AM: What was what?
MC: What are your thoughts about your time? Was it good?
AM: Well I thought it was a good thing for anybody. You see, I’m in a position now, I belong to Jehovah’s Witnesses and they don’t approve of people going into the forces. Not because they’ve anything against the forces but they don’t believe in war. And today I was cross questioned before I come out because one of the ladies from the Jehovah’s Witnesses came to my house and she didn’t realise that I was twigging what she was up to and they don’t want me to come here because they want no connection whatsoever to do with war or people who take part in wars which I did. And so I had to watch my Ps and Qs. So, I didn’t know I was coming here because he didn’t tell me. I didn’t, I knew we was coming somewhere around here but I didn’t know where, what or anything about it and so when I come in here, it was, I thought what are we going in there for? I didn’t know and you’ve opened my eyes to what’s what so —
MC: Well that’s lovely Alan and I thank you very much for being very frank and I’ve enjoyed your talk and it’s been very interesting. Thank you very much.
AM: Well I could have told you a lot more but —
MC: You can do if you wish.
AM: No [laughs].
MC: What else have you got to tell me then?
AM: No, you’ve got, you want to be going home for a meal or something.
MC: Well I do appreciate what you’ve done. Thank you, Alan.
AM: Ok.
MC: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Edward Allan McDonald
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMcDonaldEA150713
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Mittelland Canal
France--Juvincourt-et-Damary
Description
An account of the resource
Allan McDonald was born in Hull and worked as an apprentice electrician before joining the Air Force. He passed the exams to become aircrew and trained as an air gunner. During training, his aircraft crash landed and he was soaked in petrol. He flew operations as a rear gunner with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe and recalls seeing aircraft exploding in the air, a dinghy deploying by accident and nearly hitting a WAAF, and making an emergency landing at Juvincourt after being attacked by a FW-190 and being hit by anti-aircraft fire.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:15:32 audio recording
14 OTU
50 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
crash
decoy site
Fw 190
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Winthorpe
sanitation
shot down
Stirling
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/543/8783/PHildrethJ1502.1.jpg
8ed4834a7c5568e0404e563b1c55b83c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/543/8783/AHildrethJ150602.2.mp3
9c277bc52941b2a1f31fd5a984fb243f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hildreth, Jeff
J Hildreth
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Hildreth
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Jeff Hildreth (1924 - 2017, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 170 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
2015-08-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock, the interviewee is Mr Jeff Hildreth. The interview is taking place at Mr Hildreths’ home at Sutton-in-Ashfield on 2nd June 2015. OK Jeff, tell me a bit about your early days, when and where you were born.
JH: Well it was at Huntwood, Derbyshire, and my father was a miner, and by the time we got to the war breaking out it was ‒, I decided that I was going to join the RAF because my dad recommended it because he said it was very muddy in the trenches. He was in the Great War. And, well I was called up eventually but I joined the ATC and because you joined that you could qualify for what they called the PNB scheme (Pilot, Navigator, Bomb Aimer) which I did do. I was a bloody idiot, you can erase that if you want [laugh], but I did not ‒, I could have become commissioned and I turned it down, but then that was just a little boy from a little village and it didn’t seem to fit, ‘cause I probably made another mistake somewhere in my life, but that was the daftest one, but nevertheless I did join the ATC and eventually ‒, it’s a long time ago and ‒, but I was going through the various sections and ‒, oh by the time I was called up I remember now, by the time I was called up there was no requirement for pilot, navigator and bomb aimer but there was ‒, so therefore I took the next best thing which was a wireless operator but ‒, and I qualified on the course. That was no problem when I think now ‒, when I say I was qualified, and I think somewhere there they did offer me a commission and again I turned it down. It’s difficult to put the conception to other people but I was just a young lad from a mining village, to be an officer and be in charge didn’t seem to fit. Now I know differently of course, because in the RAF it is very different and so ‒.
MC: What did you do before you joined up? Did you work? Were you working?
JH: I went to night school and studied electrical engineering and I got my ‒, oh, what was it? It wasn’t my AMIEE, it was a HNC, Higher National Certificate, I did that at Worksop Technical College but then, as a result of that, I was employed by the East Midlands Electricity Board and was given a day off a week to go and study again and I did, and I got through that one all right er ‒.
MC: Where did you do your wireless operator training?
JH: Oh that was automatic of course, Yatesbury, the first three months learning Morse code and such like as that, which I never expected that what I ‒, how good, how good I ought to have been compared to how good I really was. It was better to put how bad I was. Let’s see now, I lived at Langold, which is between Worksop and Doncaster and er ‒, let me think. No, that bits gone. It doesn’t seem too long ago.
MC: How long were you at Yatesbury?
JH: Sorry?
MC: How long were you at Yatesbury?
JH: Oh it was three months at Yatesbury, well to start with the first 3 months was nothing else but classroom and then the next three months it was so-called flying training and, which we went on Ansons I believe, I think it’s in there. It was in Ansons and ‒, oh but I’m trying to think where it was. It might have been Scampton. I was at all the stations, Lindholme and so on, the other places, but er ‒.
MC: So where did you go from your wireless operator training? You must have gone to an operational training unit?
JH: Yes, and that was all up in Yorkshire er ‒, I do apologise.
MC: Finningley?
JH: Is it in there?
MC: The 18 OTU out at Finningley.
JH: Yes, that would be it and we were flying Ansons.
MC: 18 OTU were probably Wellingtons.
JH: We went on to Wellingtons but I started on Ansons but that was ‒, oh Finningley, which therefore was not very far from my home in Worksop, and therefore, I used to have my bicycle in camp and whenever I got a weekend off, which was every weekend, I got my bike out and I cycled home and because of that, when it came to crewing up, I suppose I’m not a very open minded person, as you know, I wasn’t good at making friends here there and everywhere, at least not on the surface shall I say but there was one wireless operator too many on the course and so therefore, I offered to be the spare man and not crew up and so I didn’t crew up until it got to the very end of the course and someone went sick and because of that, ‘You are in that crew now’, and that’s how I crewed up and er ‒.
MC: Can you remember the names of the crew?
JH: The actual crew?
MC: The crew.
JH: I don’t know, it was Flight Lieutenant John Baxter from Sheffield, he might have only been a flying officer, I’m not sure, at the time. The bomb aimer came from Huddersfield I think, the navigator came from God’s own country, born in Prince Edward Island, Canadian, and ‒, but the two gunners again ‒, what they were doing, they were closing down the training area because somebody in their wisdom said they got enough, and so my two gunners were both flight lieutenant ex-gunnery trainers and it was Flight Lieutenant Walter Gordon and Flight Lieutenant [unclear] you look up page number two, I think.
MC: So after the OTU you went to the Heavy Conversion Unit?
JH: Oh, that’s right, that was on Halifaxes and ‒, but then you did six weeks on Halifaxes and then you went on to a Lanc finishing school course and that was one year and that was where ‒, and of course, you were supposed to be crewing up all the time, but all I was interested in was being a spare man so I could keep going home weekends on my bike, but then last minute somebody was sick and that’s how I got in John Baxter’s crew.
MC: So when ‒, you then got posted to your squadron?
JH: Well, I think, let me think now. Lanc finishing course, I think. Was it Hemswell? I believe, I’m not sure, and we went down to Scampton for the formation of 170 and then speed back up to Hemswell to take on those flying duties, and so ‒.
MC: What can you remember about that, your first operation then?
JH: Oh, when you looked out forward and I’ve got the astrodome, I could stand up there and as a wireless operator, keep radio silence. That was perfect, it meant I’d got nothing to do except I did follow the ‒, I can’t remember the name of our radar. Fishpond, it was called Fishpond, and it was the aerial was underneath the aircraft, so I could tell if anybody was coming in from underneath and so in actual fact, I could press that button from somewhere and stand up look to in the astrodome as well, I could look at the screen and everything. I ‒, oh the main thing I did was, that when I looked out ‒, I think it was in my mind, I’m sorry there, I was going onto daylight trips and that, I think, was about number twelve and there, if you looked ahead, you could see a bank of clouds which was the anti-aircraft guns exploding, just a bank of black clouds and I sort of recall, it might be that by then the skipper was a flight lieutenant and as such was in the forefront, and we went into that and all I can tell you is that somewhere along the way the skipper says, ‘Right we’re going out’, and we went through that cloud and we looked back, and we could see all the others we’d left behind. So I mean it was ‒, it was a funny crew in a way, I mean the Canadian and myself got on quite well. To be quite honest with you, we didn’t take to the flight engineer because he’d been a warden in a naughty boys school, so if you can picture him, no, but the ‒, as I say, the navigator was from PEI and the rest was good and quite honestly I thoroughly ‒, I shouldn’t say ‒, you don’t enjoy it because every time you go, you’re looking at where all the anti-aircraft is bursting and so it’s like as that, and, of course, you’re becoming more senior with each trip so therefore you were nearer the front and nearer the point for getting [unclear] and getting away, at least that’s my version of it.
MC: So you carried on your night operations and then your day operations. How many flight ops did you complete entirely?
JH: Er, what’s number twelve? That’s it, sorry.
MC: I was looking ‒
JH: Fourteen, that’s night-time, if it’s in red, it’s night-time, oh and that’s another one, fourteen to Eastburg, sorry. Oh yes, that was a Lancaster, and all of a sudden, they fired at us and we got out of the way. We were target with a friend, he might have been on his first trip perhaps, I don’t know.
MC: So you survived pretty well from all your operations. No mishaps? Apart from that of course.
JH: No, I did survive very well and to be quite honest, that was a thought in my head all the time, because very often when you went to a briefing, they might tell you what happened the last time we went there or something like that, but slowly but surely you were told of people who did not come back off their first trip, and it was like blithely going on, you don’t know why, whether the angel was looking after you or what, I don’t know but er ‒, and as I say, in a way we were a funny crew. I knocked about with the navigator and we used to get down into Gainsborough as often as possible and we went to ‒, what do they call the ladies who looked after you?
MC: A brothel?
JH: No [laugh], CWS or something, and you could go to a place in Gainsborough.
MC: WVS.
JH: Pardon?
MC: WVS.
JH: Yes, and you could go to a place in Gainsborough and they’d always got ‒, you could buy these buns, you know, any array of them, they’d all been making them at home. And they’d got a ‒, I think they’d got a billiard table so that suited me as well ‘cause I was trying to learn, and so that was quite enjoyable really. Then somehow, we must have got ‒, I’m trying to think of transport, but I don’t know how we got into Gainsborough and how we got back, but of course it didn’t matter, you knew when you were going on ops because of course, they put a battle order up and if you weren’t on that, away you went to Gainsborough and a day out and ‒,
MC: So how many operations did you complete in total?
JH: I think I completed twenty-nine actually, but with a bit of fiddling, you can say I did thirty. If you look at the bulls ‒, the first thing I did was a bullseye. Now a bullseye, before the operations, a bullseye was where there they sent a force of aircraft over to the foreign ‒, to the European coast, like the Dutch or such like and I’m sorry, yeah, and therefore you were into enemy territory because you went to the coast and what we were doing was to draw the enemy forces to that point because, if you’ve got a fighter, he can only be up in the air for so long as he’s got fuel, so if when we went to, say Gainsborough to, er, Belgium, they had to put their fighters up in the air and that was using some of their fuel. This is what I was told, probably a pack of lies, and then we turned and came home and the main force went in somewhere else, a little further down the coast or something, but we had withdrawn the enemy fire, if you like. I think that was the idea behind it.
MC: Of course, the war ended when you came to the end of your tour anyway?
JH: It did yes.
MC: But you carried on though, didn’t you?
JH: I did, I think I’d just started, done one trip or something, in a Lincoln.
MC: Before that did you do any ‒, Operation Manna, dropping food supplies?
JH: Er ‒, I think so, might have done. Is it in there? Oh yeah, that was low level stuff because yes, and that was stuff that was hung up in the bomb bay and we went low down and dropped it, yes.
MC: To the Dutch.
JH: Yes, but ‒.
MC: You also went on [unclear]
JH: Oh yes, yes, we went to Berlin and we spent a little time in Berlin er ‒, and no, the only thing I can remember in Berlin was that there was a lot of young ladies there, but they had a price and I think the going rate was about twenty cigarettes and er ‒, I think I helped other people. I was a village lad so you know, I don’t think I knew what it was all about at all. So ‒.
MC: Of course, you wouldn’t have been very old at that time.
JH: No.
MC: You would still have only been a young lad.
JH: Yeah, I’d be about twenty-two at most, yeah, but er ‒.
MC: So you then went on to Lincolns.
JH: Yes, and oh, I was gonna say, I don’t know, we were fetching soldiers home.
MC: Operation Exodus.
JH: Yeah.
MC: That’s what they called it.
JH: Yes, er ‒, and we went to Pomergliano, Pommy, I think I did about two or three trips to Pommy, and one to Bari down in Italy. It was quite good. I was quite [unclear], we used to get twenty soldiers into the bomb bay and they were issued with a blanket, a typical Army blanket, that’s what they sat on, and one or two naturally had never flown before, so therefore I was quite experienced, ‘No problem mate’, you know, ‘He’s a good skipper’, thumbs up, and, ‘What’s it like taking off?’ and so on, and I says, ‘No problem, you just fasten up. As long as you relax your body, you’ll never feel a thing. Don’t matter what’s happening’. But the main thing going on those Dodge trips, having got out there, we prayed for bad weather in England so that we had to stay there, because it was near Naples and I thoroughly enjoyed that part of it. I mean, I saw the old city of ‒, I don’t know whether it was Herculaneum or something like that, but it was the old city and of course, there was Vesuvius, always spouting a little bit of smoke and er ‒, I, to be quite honest, the rate of exchange was beautiful, er ‒, I think the official rate of exchange was four hundred lira to the pound, but you could get eight hundred out on the streets, and if you pushed it or bought something, you could even get more than that, so I had ‒, I know I did bring something home, but you know, little bits. I thoroughly enjoyed that.
MC: So you did quite a few of these Dodge trips, didn’t you?
JH: Yeah.
MC: You went to Bordeaux as well.
JH: Ah, that was where I think somebody had a ‒, lost an engine and landed there and so therefore we flew there, along with somebody else. One crew took the repair crew to make good on the aircraft that had landed there and we went and picked up the survivors, some of the survivors, and brought them home, and that was why we went to Bordeaux. Ah, Bordeaux, and [laugh] the ladies of the night were there in Bordeaux in large numbers but again, I was too young [laugh].
MC: So when did your service finish after the war? You went on to Lincolns you said?
JH: Oh yes, they were bringing them in and so therefore we went onto them er ‒, I don’t think I did many trips on Lincolns.
MC: I didn’t realise, you went to 12 Squadron for a while?
JH: I did and I went to 100 Squadron somewhere. I don’t know, but I was ‒, but I think also ‒, what was I going to do back in Civvy Street? I had no idea, I had no idea, and so therefore I was much preferring to stick in the RAF. I don’t mean permanently, but it delayed the decision as to what I was going to do when I did finally come out ‒. Oh, a friend of my brothers was an engineer with the East Midlands Electricity Board and through him, I got a job. Oh good Lord, yes. I was mating a linesman. He went up the pole and he got a sash line. He told you what he wanted so you learnt how to tie it on and make it easy to undo and that was it. So I was ‒, but I was supposed actually ‒, I did eventually qualify as a linesman’s mate, but I was never really a good linesman’s mate and ‒, but as I say, somewhere along the line ‒, oh, one of the engineers with the Electricity Board was a friend of my brothers, and so I ‒, it was through him, he recommended me to go to night school, and I got a day off a week, every week I got a day off to go to night school, and whoever I was working with used to love it because they’d got nothing to do, so I carried on at night school. I got my HNC, or Higher National Certificate if you like, and then I qualified ‒. Oh, I got my AMIEE and then eventually, they made me an engineer and that was me. I was an engineer and that is it, which meant I’d got enough money to get married on.
MC: And when was that?
JH: I should know, shouldn’t it? It’s the 26th of August but I’m blowed if I ‒, I was about twenty-five.
MC: Going back to your Lincoln days, you were with 100 Squadron in Lincolns?
JH: Yeah.
MC: That was a different skipper though.
JH: Oh yes. We broke up altogether because the navigator, being Canadian, he shot off as fast as he could, he was quite happy to go and I think when I was on Lincolns, without saying I’m shooting a line, I was with new trainees coming through, I don’t know. That is correct, yes.
MC: So tell me about that. It says, ‘’Shot down by a Mosquito”.
JH: Yes, why am I ‒? It was ‒, we weren’t shot down by a Mosquito. We were flying along by a Mosquito and I believe the Mosquito claimed a kill, I’m not sure, but we put him down to being a newcomer, trigger happy I suppose, I don’t know. Oh, Operation Capsize, but no Fishpond because with Fishpond, we were very good because we flew low level and I got to interpret, and with a map, I could interpret and I would just tell the skipper, ‘There’s a railway crossing coming up’, and I do know on some, there was a railway going across an embankment and we had to climb to get over it, we were flying at such low level.
MC: Did you ever used H2S radar?
JH: We used H2S a little bit, I’m not sure what that actually did.
MC: It had a screen as well, a bit like Fishpond.
JH: But I believe, and I believe with H2S you could see your target, or something like that.
MC: It was a ground mapping radar.
JH: Ah, I preferred Fishpond.
MC: So you remained in the electricity job the rest of your life then, when you came out of the Air Force, engineering?
JH: Oh yes, yes, well I was in this East Midlands Electricity Board and they used to give me a day off a week and provided you passed at the end of year, and I simply kept passing, and so when I did finally get my fifth year, which was my Higher National Certificate, then that was it. They made me an engineer with the Electricity Board. It wasn’t very wonderful stuff to start with because I’d be on services, for instance, and there was an awful lot of places that had got no electricity, and so some ‒, oh, an application for electricity was going through in one department and if it was in our area, I got the car to go out and check and, you know, say, ’Yeah, it wants a twenty-two yard of red. We can do it'. ‘We can’t do this one underground’, ‘We’ve got to do it underground’, rather, or something like that er ‒, but where possible you slung a ‒, our overhead service. I don’t suppose there’s many of them left now, but it was a number eight copper wire, you put two [unclear] from inside the house, through [unclear] to the top of the house, and at that point, we’d put a corner bracket on and we could put one big insulator on round which was turned this number eight copper, and then the service wire, which was ‒, would be ‒, that’s as far as we went. But then every, as I say, every foot would be a wiring clip, one of those standard ones that wrapped round with two ends and turned back. They were horrible things, they went right through. We did it long enough until my linesman, who I was meeting, climbed up and tapped on. And he was always wanting me to take over from him. I wouldn’t. I climbed up I think once with climbers and that’s ‒. I didn’t think much to it [pause], and he was making like, I’m sure, a picture, you know.
MC: A film movie?
JH: Editing film work.
MC: That was Air Commodore Cozens.
JH: Yes, I don’t know, I can’t remember.
MC: You’ve got a bit in your log book about the Grand National [unclear]
JH: That was after the war. Peace had been declared and so we went flying over places like Grand National or whatever it was and waved to all the cheering crowds.
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Interview with Jeff Hildreth
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Mike Connock
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-06-02
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AHildrethJ150602
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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00:35:16 audio recording
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Jeff Hildreth was born in Huntwood, Derbyshire and studied Electrical Engineering at Worksop Technical College before joining the Air Training Corp, before eventually joining the Royal Air Force as a Wireless Operator.
He did his training at Yatesbury and was there 3 months before moving to 18 Operational Training Unit at Finningley, where he flew Avro Ansons and Vickers Wellingtons. He was not assigned to a crew initially, becoming a spare man to fill in where necessary. He joined Flight Lieutenant John Baxters crew after someone fell ill.
Jeff moved to a Heavy Conversation Unit, flying Handley Page Halifaxes, before moving to a Avro Lancaster finishing school. He was then posted to Scampton for operational duties.
He completed 29 operations before taking part in Operation Manna, dropping food supplies in Holland. He then flew with 100 Squadron on Avro Lincolns taking part in Operation Exodus, bringing soldiers back home.
After the war ended, Jeff returned to his previous employer, the East Midlands Electricity Board where he used his Higher National Certificate to become a qualified Engineer.
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Vivienne Tincombe
100 Squadron
170 Squadron
18 OTU
aircrew
Lincoln
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Yatesbury
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1050/11428/ANicholsonA150922.2.mp3
41b5887b8283872933d2ab6dd5c15c94
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Title
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Nicholson, Arthur
A Nicholson
Description
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An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Arthur Nicholson (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 51 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Nicholson, A
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AN: My name is Arthur Nicholson. Ex-flight engineer, Bomber Command. 51 Squadron. I’ll start this story from leaving school, starting work and then going into the forces. I left school in 1939. August. Just before the war began. And finding work was not easy at that time but I went into an engineering factory manufacturing printing machinery. I went as an apprentice engineer. Well, as you know the war started in September ‘39 and that was the week I started work. Well, for the first year we carried on manufacturing printing machinery but then changed over to manufacturing various armaments such as breech blocks for anti-aircraft guns and bullet making machinery and predictors for anti-aircraft. For the flak department. After that, well that created the fact that I was then in what was classed as a reserved occupation. So my life in the wartime would have been working as an engineer in that factory. And nobody could get me out of there. I learned later on that the only way to get out of there and to become in the military was to be, to join aircrew. Well, I was working with a team of four older fellas. And was very disappointed in the amount of money I was receiving and the amount of work that I was doing which was more than these other four were doing all together. So on my eighteenth birthday I decided I would leave this job and go and volunteer for the RAF. So I went down to Leeds. Put my name down to join aircrew as a flight, as an engineer. It didn’t matter at that time whether it was ground staff or aircrew but they said being in a reserved occupation you can only go into air crew. So I said, ‘Well fair enough. That’s me joined.’ So they said, ‘Oh yes, you’re alright.’ So it was a quick interview and a medical and they said yes you’re fit enough to go at the time. To start with. I said, ‘Well, how long will it be before I’m called up?’ He said, ‘Well, six to eight weeks.’ So I said, ‘Oh well fair enough.’ So I went home and told my parents that I was joining the Air Force which they weren’t very happy about because my elder brother had already been in the Air Force for a year and was flying as a navigator. And he was flying some of the heavy bombers but he never got to go on operations before he was killed in an accident. But so, but that’s later on. It took nearly nine months after me volunteering in January. It was September before the authorities were able to get my release from that reserved occupation. And suddenly in September I received a letter to say I’d been accepted and to report to St John’s Wood such and such a day. And from that day on that was the RAF. The usual thing — you went down to St John’s Wood. Completely strange place. You know, met at Lord’s Cricket Ground and that was my first day in the Air Force. Which was quite an interesting day. You just went from one to room to another being interviewed, being examined and being tested for various things. And halfway through the day somebody brought you a mug of tea and a teacake and that was your sustenance for the day. Eventually we walked away from there. There was hundreds of other lads coming in. Just the same. Little suitcases or bags on their back with just personal belongings. And some corporal or sergeant mustered possibly two hundred of us and said, ‘Right. Follow me.’ And we set off and we walked down the roads of St John’s Wood and we finished up in the swimming baths. The bloke there said, ‘Right. We need to know whether you can swim or not.’ He said, ‘Right. All them who think they can swim get in at this, stand at this end. We’ll give you a pair of trunks.’ They all give us a pair of trunks. ‘The ones who can’t swim stand over there on the right. And the ones who think they might be able to get down to the shallow end.’ So I thought well damn it all. I wasn’t a good swimmer but I didn’t know what was the results of not of being able to swim so I said, ‘Right. That’s it.’ So when it came to me turn I dropped in at the shallow end and had to swim to the deep end. You had to do a full length of the pool at St John’s Wood to be classed as a swimmer. So I struggled and I managed a length [laughs] without drowning and that was that. So, right that’s it. You’re a swimmer. Passed A1. From there on we were taken away and to some ex, I don’t know if it was an ex-block of flats or an ex-hotel or what it was. He said, ‘Right. Find yourself a room in there and go to,’ such and such a place down the road here, ‘For some food. And then, and then you’ll be called in the morning at probably half past six or 7 o’clock to register and muster with the people who you’ve made up friends with.’ Well, I walked into this room and there was one other bloke in there. Then two more came in. And they were three Geordies. They were all from Tyneside. And I could hardly understand a word they said. They were all quite strong Geordies but we got on reasonably well together. Decided which bed we were going to sleep in and where to put the little bit of stuff that we had with us. From there on I went, we went and had food and then came back. We went together. We all had to have a haircut the next day and everything else like they usually do. And I I have always been used to doing a fair amount of walking in the area I used to live in. But two of these lads had always gone on the bus everywhere and they didn’t like walking [laughs] But I made friends with these three people and I stayed with those three people through the basic training at Bridlington and Usworth up in Durham somewhere. And then when we transferred from there it would be possibly eight to ten weeks after basic training which was the usual physical training. Rifle drill, marching, saluting. Everything else. From there then we got the time to go down for the engineering course at St Athan’s in South Wales. And I was still with these three same people all the way through that course which was, I think, then a six month course. And it was very intensive, and the things that we learned was, it was very good. There was always the same discipline. The church parades. Marching in. Waiting for food there. One thing and another. But it was exciting. And it was all new. And I was basically a mechanical engineer but what was taught there was all kinds of the details of hydraulics and electrics and various other bits and pieces. And you had to learn a little bit about, a little bit about navigation. The stars. A bit about oh [pause] yeah the weather. The clouds and everything else. You had to learn about, be able to write the weather forecast damn here. Be as good as Paul Hudson on the telly. But that went on for, for six months until two weeks before I should have — oh in one period in that we were supposed to be selected to what kind of aircraft we would be flying. And you had to put your name down. Well, I fancied at that time to keep away from Germany so I volunteered for Coastal Command and I wanted to fly on Sunderlands. Well, that didn’t come off. So eventually I found that, I’d been told I was going to be flying in Handley Page Halifaxes and was sent on a course to Liverpool. To the manufacturers. We spent a week, or more than a week in the manufacturers learning as much as you could about the individual bits of an Halifax. Well then, two weeks before the end of the engineering course I got a sudden, a telegram while I was in a class. And I was dragged out of the class to the orderly office and told that my brother had been killed [pause] I had to go home.
[recording paused]
AN: Well, the process there was I had to hand in all my equipment at RAF St Athan’s and I was given a train ticket to get back to Otley in Yorkshire the best way I could. So obviously it was a bit of a round about route. To go into London first. And then from London up to Yorkshire and then a local train in Otley. It took eleven hours did that. And at that time more or less all the trains were fully occupied so half the time on that journey I was sat in the corridor on my kit bag and just wondering what my mum and dad would think. Well, the bit I’ve left out of here is after starting work and me coming in to the Air Force I was in the Air Training Corps. And my brother was in it as well. He was a bit brighter than I was and he went off as an navigator and I, I finished up as an engineer. But I thought well I’ve got to go back to the Air Force after this leave. I was only on leave for the funeral of my brother. So I went to this funeral. It was in town. Which was a bit of a ceremony because all the Air Training Corps was there. They had a pipe band at the time and so we had to follow this pipe band to the cemetery. And it was a bit traumatic. Course then we had to go home. Mum and dad weren’t particularly talkative at the time but they didn’t want me to go back. Not at that time. They didn’t want me to go flying. So I had to toss up one way or another when the time came for me to go back. I decided well I don’t want to become ground crew. I’ve learned all this now. My chances is as good as anybody else’s. So, so I went back to St Athan’s to finish my course which was only supposed to be another week. Well, when I got back there all my friends who I’d made in that course had been posted and left to go somewhere else. So I had to start and find a billet on my own with some other intake that was come a lot later than I had. And nobody was interested who I was or anything. And that’s how I finished at the engineering course in St Athan’s. Well after that you were sent home on leave and then you were sent to join an Heavy Conversion Unit. And that was over at Riccall in Yorkshire. So I went to an Heavy Conversion Unit and we learned all about the actual aircraft. The Halifax. They were Halifax 2s and 3s. Mostly 2s at that time. But at the end of that period. Near, well part way through that period we was, we were told to gather at this hangar. And when we got there, there was a lot of other airmen there of all the different categories. Air gunners, pilots, navigators and said, ‘Right, well you’ve got to find a crew.’ So I thought well I’m surprised at this because they’d pushed you into this hangar and there were these different crews all gathered together and you had to go and find one to join because the, the other people had all six, there were six aircrew there that had been flying twin engined-aircraft and they were converting to four engined-aircraft. Whereas they didn’t need an engineer before that. So now they needed an engineer for a four-engined aircraft because there were more complications and assistance with the fuel handling and things like that. And I’d have thought that a pilot — a pilot and his mates would have decided on which engineer they would like. But it worked the other way round and you had to go and pick your own crew. It amazed me and I’ll never understand that. I don’t really. Because they’d already been together for probably six or seven months and for a stranger to come in and pick them rather than them pick the stranger surprised me. Anyhow, I looked around and I saw these different lads. Some of them were a similar age to myself. The pilot, who was an officer and a bit older, well that gave me a bit of confidence. So I asked them if they would like me as their engineer. It seemed to work alright and I was accepted. So that was a full crew of seven people merged together. And we stayed together then for the rest of the time in the Air Force. Well, the time when we were still in Bomber Command. We carried on there until when we learned to fly together and do night flying, cross-country flying, all sorts of flying at the Heavy Conversion Unit. At the end of that we were posted to a squadron. And we got all the kit together and we piled onto the back of an old Bedford wagon and we were driven away to 51 Squadron. We didn’t know where we were going but it turned out to be 51 Squadron at Snaith in South Yorkshire. And so, and we were dumped in a small field off, off the squadron really with little Nissen huts. No facilities and God knows what. The washing facilities were probably a mile, a mile and a half away. And the canteen and the mess. And so we used to have to walk up from there and go in through the main gates of the camp and go to the, you know the general facilities. Because the rest of the billets on the camp were all, had all been taken but eventually we moved up into the camp and, but we were all at a fair dispersal in different, we were still in Nissen huts. And all the crew, our crew was all together apart from the pilot who was in the officer’s mess. Unfortunately, during the trip from Heavy Conversion Unit to the squadron the pilot got some, some foreign body in his eye. And so when he reported to the squadron MO he was told he couldn’t fly until his eye got better. So, there were, we didn’t know how long this would be. I mean the next time we saw him he had this great big cotton wool patch on his eye. And so we were, I was introduced to the engineering leader at that time and several other of the flight engineers. We used to meet on a morning and go for different lessons and things like that. Unfortunately we couldn’t fly so we did all sorts of silly things like flipping learning to jump off a table to land as from a parachute and silly things like that. But this carried on, carried on but I knew we were going to be, and all the rest of the crews on that squadron were going out on operations at that time. So we began to wonder how much longer it would be before we went on ops. Eventually I were in bed one evening, one night about 9 o’clock and some silly bugger came shaking my head and said, ‘Hey get up. Get up.’ ‘What’s the matter?’ ‘You’re on ops tonight.’ I said, ‘Don’t be so silly,’ [laughs] He says, ‘Oh yes you are. You’re on ops.’ He says, ‘There’s an engineer gone sick,’ he says, ‘You’re flying tonight,’ he says, ‘But you’re a bit late. You’ve missed the briefings and you’ve missed the aircraft inspection period. You’ll have to get cracking up there.’ And so he took me in a small little Morris van up on to the squadron to this aircraft. And they were just ready and the engineering leader give me the inspection sheet. He said he’d done the inspection, ‘Get in and find your place and you’re off,’ and I thought well I’d no idea who I was flying with or what the crew was like or how much experience they had and this was my first operation. Well, it turned around after being to it most of the time when you’re in an aircraft on a job like that it’s no speaking. Only speaking for a particular technical reason or some, or you’ve seen something that’s unusual. So I’d probably been flying two hours before I spoke to anybody. Eventually giving instructions on what fuel conditions were like and one thing and another. Carried on, on that operation and it wasn’t until we were nearly at the site for bombing that I was told where we were going. It turned out to be, of all places, Essen. Well, as everybody knows Essen was well protected. There were black smoke and shells bursting all around us, and it didn’t, it didn’t seem to bother me then because I didn’t understand what half of it was. But nothing happened. We turned around and dropped bombs, turned around, came back home and landed quite normally. And when we were in the truck being taken back into the headquarters for de-briefing the pilot then said to me, ‘Well, that’s it. You’re lucky.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ He said, ‘Well, that’s your last operation.’ I says. ‘What makes you think that?’ He says, ‘Well that’s what we were told.’ I said, ‘Well, you’ve been told a lie because that were me first.’ ‘Oh God,’ he says [laughs] He said, ‘I would have talked to you a bit more if I’d have known that. I just thought you knew as much as we did and carried on.’ It were their, I think it was about their twenty eighth out of the thirty but anyhow that was the first operation, because our skipper was still unable to fly. And this went on for eight weeks. And my next operation was a similar, only about the one beforehand and I went to briefing same as everybody else. But then after that we flew as a crew. I can’t remember which destinations we were and what we were bombing. But all our flights were night flights over Germany. Mostly four and a half to five and a half hour flights at that time. And things happened on these flights. One time we had a bit of a fire in the navigator’s place where the H2S set on fire and I had to go down with the extinguisher and put that out. There was another time when we should have set off and I wouldn’t accept the aircraft because it had a big slit in one tyre. Which, that wasn’t looked on very well by the ground crew and everybody else but we’d been instructed that a tyre with a slit in the side wasn’t acceptable. So I refused to fly. So that put the whole crew couldn’t fly. But unfortunately there was a spare aircraft kicking about so they kicked us on to a spare aircraft and we still had to fly. But in one or two of these ops there were things happened. I mean one time and thank God I were only a little fella. My position used to be stood under the astro hatch which is a plastic hatch on top of the aircraft just behind the pilot. And a piece of shrapnel flew through this hatch straight out through one side and out the other. Well, if I’d been five foot six instead of five feet four that would probably have been the end of me. There was another time when we had a few holes in the aircraft from anti-aircraft fire but we always got back. There was one memorable time when we got back to the, we’d been out, I don’t know how long for. Probably five hours. And we got back and when we got back up into Yorkshire it seemed to be pretty bad weather. And we thought oh we, we’ll have to land somewhere. We came to land at Snaith and it was covered in fog. But by that time it was too late for us to go anywhere else. We were about out of fuel sort of thing. So we decided, well the skipper decided we’d have to land. And we were in contact with ground personnel there. And there was no lights on the runway or anything like that at that time so we had to circle two or three times around 51 Squadron at Snaith until they put these goose neck flares all down the side of the runway. We just managed to get in and give a big cheer. Thought we were the first back but it happened we were the only one back because everybody else had listened to the radio broadcast except our radio operator who loved to listen American Forces Network quite a lot for dance music. And he’d missed an instruction to divert. We’d been diverted somewhere down south. I don’t know where it were. And so we cheered, we thought we were the first ones back. So we got a little bit of a lecture on what we should have listened to and things like that. There was another time when, when they wouldn’t, there weren’t two times, I think twice when we went off to bomb certain places. This was getting towards the end of the war and our job then was sort of backing up the advance of the troops after D-Day. And unfortunately they must have given us some wrong information when we set off but we got nearly to where we should have been and the troops had advanced in to the place where we were told to bomb. So we had to turn around and come back. Well, this is one of the things which I thought were bloody silly because we’d gone all that way, bomb load, flown over quite a bit of defensive Germany and yet we were just turned back and fly back just the same. Why we couldn’t have had another target, another fifty miles further on I don’t understand. But this happened twice. Well on the second time back, well also then there was, you could only land your aircraft with a certain maximum weight. Well, the amount of bombs we had on made as we were over that weight. So, you used to have to drop so many in, in The Wash or in the North Sea. And I used to have to calculate the fuel contents. The weight of the fuel, the weight of the bombs and decide on what the all up weight would be on landing. And to tell the bomb aimer how many bombs he had to get rid of, you see. Drop two five hundred pounders or two, and things like that you see. So this I did and the bomb aimer decided he’d be a bit extravagant. Instead of dropping two five hundred pounders he decided he’d drop four just to make sure [laughs] that we were underweight. Well, then we, we got back and the usual debriefing, and, ‘What did you do then?’ ‘How many bombs did you drop?’ When he told him he’d dropped four and the bloke did the calculations that I had done said, ‘You should only have dropped two.’ He said, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘But it made it safe.’ He said, ‘Yes but —’ then we got a lecture about how much bombs cost to manufacture. and the number of hours people spent making bombs. And there was another, well, twice when two different flights went. We landed away from base because we showed, the instruments showed a shortage of fuel. According to my calculations there should have been sufficient fuel for us to get back to base. But to play safe we landed away. We landed at Carnaby. And landed at Hethel, another place and it turned out to be an American place. But landing at Hethel was a mistake. We should have been landing at another RAF place which was about two miles further on. And when we were on the runway on the run in to the landing we got challenged by some American fellas to identify ourselves or we’d be shot at. So I had to shoot a blinking verey cartridge out to the colours of the day. And the wireless op was on the radio trying to tell them who we were. So anyway, we landed alright there and we were looked after. All these Yanks with B49s. And they thought we were marvellous flying in the dark which they didn’t do. They used to do all daylights. More of their flights. But twice as high as we were. And so we, we were looked after there until the next morning we went out to the aircraft. We should have been flying back to Snaith. And I pretended to be a bit dumb and all their aircraft were twelve volt aircraft and ours, ours was twenty four. So, their starting equipment wasn’t suitable for starting our aircraft engines up. So, and I thought well it’s simple enough to get two or three batteries in series to make twenty four volts but I said nothing. So we were there for three days [laughs] We were there for three days. Going to the pictures in Norwich and being fed like lords. Never seen as much food in all my life as what there was on this American base. You could have anything you wanted. Fruit and meat and goodness knows what. To finish they had to send somebody down from 51 Squadron to do some battery alterations and some [unclear] to start our engines. We were three days there [laughs] and it were like a holiday. Anyhow, then I got called into the squadron leader’s office and the engineering leader was there and I got a bit of a lecture on fuel management and one thing and another. And they said that if I didn’t improve at the next flight I would be sent back to St Athan’s for further instruction. That worried me a bit because I thought well everything I’ve done was according to book and log looked alright. It’s just that the instruments didn’t seem right. Anyhow, we were grounded for two days. The next night the officer commanding the squadron took the same aircraft — MHL. I’ll never forget that. Personnel were waiting next night. MHL didn’t come back. Landed away from base short of fuel. Bloody thing were leaking like mad from where one of engines were running, were losing fuel. So I got an apology from [unclear] and that was it. Anyhow, things went on as normal until getting on we thought the war was about finished and Germany would have had it but then we were told we were going to go on a daylight raid. And we went to, we were going to Koln. We went in briefing at early morning. Probably be 6 o’clockish. Something like that. Well we went to Koln. Well, this was our first daylight raid. So we set off as usual. Happy as anything. Nice to do a daylight raid. You can see where you’re going and what’s around you and things like that. But there were a bit of a flak about and an odd fighter was about but when we got on to the bombing run which was the usual straight and level and things and controlled from the bomb aimer the matter, and we were in the second wave. There were four minute intervals between three waves of an eight hundred bombing raid. Eight hundred bombers. Three waves of, and we were second wave. Well, the bomb aimer, we were listening to the master bombers talking at that time and suddenly the master bomber says, ‘Stop bombing reds. Bomb greens from —’ such and such a course. You see. Well, really what we should have done was carried on and bombed reds because we were all half way through the damned bombing run then. But the skipper and the navigator decided and the bomb aimer had a little chat and decided well that must be for us we’d better change course. So I said, ‘Well, this is a bit of a dangerous thing to do. We’re flying half in to the wave. Carry on and bomb as had been instructed beforehand.’ And for us to turn across that everybody else were flying, we were flying at ninety degrees to the rest of them. So they were missing us by inches and one thing and another. And we went out, further out and turned to come in on a different direction. And course we were out on our own at that time. Daylight raid at 10 o’clock in the morning. Flipping flying towards Cologne to drop bombs on it on bloody green targets. And bomb aimer says, kept us on a straight and level course and we did our best and he dropped our bombs. And as soon as our bombs had gone the mid-upper gunner shouts, ‘We’ve just been hit on the right hand side. Starboard engines,’ he says. It’s bunch blazing like mad.’ I looked out and saw the instruments. Skipper switched the engine off. I operated the fire, internal fire extinguishers and I operated the propeller to feather the propellers so they didn’t go around because that made difficulty for flying and also helped to keep the fire going. But nothing was too any avail and you could see this fire getting worse and worse. Of course half the wing’s full of petrol and aviation fuel. And that was it. So the skipper gave us the order to bail out. So, the mid-upper gunner was shouting and telling us what, how this, bad this fire was getting and bits were melting off the wing. The rear gunner turned his turret around and he was hauling back with his head up and telling us about bits flying off. The bomb aimer should have been the first out of the escape hatch which was down in the front. On the floor. What to do with the escape hatch? And him and the navigator were arguing about what to do with it. I said, ‘For God’s sake pull it out and throw it down the front in the bomb aimer’s place.’ So they did that. And the bomb aimer must have had a bit of a dizzy on because he wouldn’t, he was supposed to be the first out and he hesitated so the navigator went out. The wireless op went out. And then the bomb aimer went out. Curly, the rear gunner went out and dropped off the back end. The mid-upper gunner came, scuttled past me and to go down the hatch. I set my parachute and clipped it on and I was stood at the side of the skipper who was still hanging on to the controls trying to keep it straight. I clipped his parachute on to him. And then I said to him, ‘Cheerio Stan. Good luck.’ And I disappeared and that was it. Well, none of us had any parachuting experience or anything like that. It was a cold morning. Snowing at odd times. And we were at about twenty thousand feet. So, and I pulled the rip cord and the little chute came out and then it pulled the other one out. And all of a sudden you slowed down. And there’s me hanging on a few bits of string going around and around and one way or another and swinging backwards and forwards. I thought well the one thing you used to worry about was whether any of the back end of the aircraft might hit you as you dropped out because you just dropped underneath it. And sometimes people had been hit by tail fins and stuff like that. Anyhow, I thought well, that’s it. It’s alright. Here we are in the middle of Germany. You don’t know what sort of a reception you’re going to get. Anything like that. So, and there was an eighty mile an hour wind blowing. If it hadn’t have been we would have probably landed in occupied territory. But as it was this eighty hour wind blowing it was blowing the Germany way so we landed just the other side of the Rhine. Unfortunately I landed in what you might call a copse. A field of small trees. Probably twenty, twenty five foot high. And my parachute, my canopy was over one tree and I was in another. But come to release myself and all of a sudden there’s three blokes with rifles pointing at me. I’d landed in the blasted searchlight squadron or battalion or whatever they called them. And so no chance to run or get anywhere. I wouldn’t have known what to do in any case. So, I was caught straight away as you might say. Had only scratches here and there from twigs breaking and things. But, and that was it. And hence the others who had bailed out, I’d seen the aircraft gunning around and but I never saw another parachute get out so I wasn’t sure whether Stan had got out, the pilot, or not. But evidently he didn’t because he was killed. He went down with the aircraft. And I saw it when the wing dropped off and then it suddenly went down in a spiral. And I’m still floating down. It took nearly twenty minutes to come down. So, but as I say landed in anti- aircraft field where there was a searchlight field and was picked up immediately. I was taken into a police station in a little village. And another RAF bloke was brought in at the same time and people were shouting at us and one thing and another. Didn’t know what were going to happen but the day, the day dragged on and then we were taken out of there and set off to march for somewhere, we walked behind these two policemen. And we crossed the River Rhine at Bonn. We walked across the Rhine at the bridge at Bonn. And then we were taken by a truck to [pause] I think it would be Hamburg. No. No. Frankfurt. Frankfurt. We were put in solitary confinement at Frankfurt and we were kept in solitary confinement for about ten days. And in that confinement you’re in a little cell. Be six foot by eight foot with a stone flag bed. No blankets. No facilities. No nothing. Just a little catch at the side of the door. If you wanted to go to the loo you’d to drop this and the flap dropped outside and some German guard came and rousted you out. But he wouldn’t allow anybody to go out and down that corridor if there was anybody else coming in that corridor because you weren’t allowed to speak to anybody. Used to go to the loo. Get your hands and face washed and that was it. And they used to keep altering the temperature in this cell so in the night time one minute you were cold and the next minute you was too hot and things. But this went on for eight to ten days. Then one day we were, we were taken into a fancy office with a big German. I don’t know what rank he was but his fancy uniform on, sat at a great big desk. And he decided to interrogate us and the usual thing. Rank, name and number and that’s all I’d give him. ‘Now, don’t be silly. No more. The war’s finished for you.’ I said, ‘Well, it might have been but that’s it. Rank, name and number.’ And so he says, ‘Well who’s just your squadron leader. Who’s your flight commander?’ Who’s this and who’s that? I says, ‘I’ve no idea really. I haven’t been on the squadron long enough to find out.’ He says, ‘Well, I’ll tell you.’ And he could tell me more about 51 Squadron than I’d ever known in my life. Commanding officer. Who were flipping different flight officers. How many raids they’d done. And all sorts of things. So he says, ‘Well that’s it for you. Your war’s over. You’ll be sent to a prisoner of war camp somewhere.’ Back to the doings, your cell until they come and collected us. Took us down to the station and they pushed us, there was about forty of us, into a cattle truck. You couldn’t, there weren’t room to sit down or lay down or anything. There was about forty of us. All in a cattle truck. We set off from there. We didn’t know where we were going. On the journey in this cattle truck lots of people had been, they must have been POWs on the run for days. Some of them were poorly. Some of them had diarrhoea and one thing and another. And they used to stop just at the beginning of the evening time at some, out in the country and let us off but all these guards around with big dogs. So you hadn’t the chance to run away. We were, the next day we were going along and we stopped outside a little station and there was a bridge just in front of us. And all of a sudden you could hear these aircraft coming. And, what’s going on? And these bloody aircraft started dropping bombs on us. Well, none of them hit us at the time and so, but we couldn’t get out of these trucks. They were all locked up but we, we [pause] it quietened down a bit so the Germans opened the trucks and said, ‘Out.’ And they sent us round and they’d scattered themselves about around the field next to where we were. And I can remember jumping down over a wall and across a stream and getting my head down. And there were these American twin-engined aircraft that were bombing us. Well, the next three that came in we saw them come in and the blow the engine off the track and they blew the next coach which was full of Germans. The officers, the guards and one thing and another. And then several bullet holes through all the rest of the cattle trucks as we’d class them as. But then they gathered us back up and took us back up to the station. But from then on it were walking. We couldn’t do because the train couldn’t go. We walked for another day then. Then we were picked up again and eventually taken to Nuremberg which we were put in a POW camp. And a massive Nuremberg POW, the camp there. I don’t know how many different compounds there were. And you were just dumped in a doings. Finding, well in each compound there would probably be two to three hundred men. In our compound they were mostly RAF men but there were some army people. And the ones who had been there a bit had formed an organisation. There was always somebody in command in different rank and various things. But all you could do there was walk the perimeter as you might say. And go down and get a wash. The toilet was a big log across a big pit. That was all we had for a toilet there and we were frightened to death of falling into it. Rations were very scarce because the Germans by that time were short of food themselves. They were very short of food. We got to eventually the rations was a sixteenth of a loaf which was one of these black loaves. And one potato. That were your day’s ration. Well, at that time when I first went over there I think I weighed, well my standard weight was nine stone six. But when I came out from there I was just under seven stone. So that teaches you to, it isn’t the kind of food you eat it’s the amount of food that makes, makes you fat [laughs] So anyhow that went on for quite a while. It must have been March, April. Must have been end of April when Americans were in Nuremberg which was south of Germany and Patton’s army were coming through then. Two Gun Patton. Well, we could hear a lot of shelling and bombing and things around us but nothing happened in the camp until one day we was told we were being released. ‘What do you mean we’re being being released?’ ‘Well, the Germans have gone. Patton’s been here and he says we’ll get you some food there and there’s no point — but don’t leave this camp because we want to organise your repatriation,’ you see. ‘So, don’t leave the camp.’ Well, that went on for two days, three days. The food that they sent were typical modern American bread which had no nourishment in it whatsoever. Fluffy stuff. And very little else. So, and I mated up with two Americans and do you know I’m disgusted that I can’t remember their names. Lofty and Shorty. And I met up with them and we decided we’d go for a walk out of the camp. We went out of the camp gates and down and we were following this stream through the farm and I heard a lot of noise going on. Squealing and shouting. Got a bit further on and there were these chaps. There were obviously been a bit of a pig farm and there were these chaps chasing these little pigs and big pigs with big sticks and the iron bars and they were trying to catch and kill these pigs. And I found out they were ex-Russian prisoners and they were starving. And oh they killed these pigs and they just hung them up on the trees. And I met one bloke coming back with a big lump of fatty pig in his hand. Nibbling away at it. It hadn’t been cooked or anything. I thought oh God. Anyhow, we went on a bit further and I got two hens. And we grilled these two hens and then went back to camp again because there were nowhere else to go. You were always frightened and being told be careful. If you’re, if there’s any SS about or anything like that there are certain German troops who wouldn’t hesitate to shoot you if they see you see wondering about on your own. So we went back to camp. Well, eventually they came and they took us from there and took us too a little airstrip called Ingoldstadt. And we just spread out in this place and we were supposed to take our turns as to when we would be lifted off. And we were lifted off by Dakotas. American’s flying Dakotas. And they used to get, I think about twenty four of us into a Dakota. And they flew us from there to Reims. Reims Airfield in, in France. So, we were dropped off there. Well, then we were, we were fed reasonably well. Well, too well for most of them because they couldn’t eat because they hadn’t eaten for — some of them had been four and five years as POWs then. But we, I mean us, we’d only been there two or three months. And after, after that the Lancasters came to Reims. Just Bomber Command Lancasters just as they were. No, no seats in. No nothing. Just as they were as bombers. And we used to get about twenty four or twenty six of us all laid down on the deck. And they flew us over to England and we landed at Tangmere. In one of the RAF fighter bases in the south of England. And well, the thing there, it was, I don’t know who’d arranged it but you got out of this aircraft and, ‘Follow me.’ We goes up this there’s these blokes with blooming back packs and pumps on spraying you. Covering you with delousing powder. This is a fine reception. So you were covered in delousing powder. Then you went up, taken in another hut. Half your clothes were taken off you. And you went to a shower. Then they give you a coat to put on and we went in to this big, well I presume a mess room at Tangmere. And the food that were laid on there. It was amazing. Well, and all the attendants there were some of the best looking WAAFs you’d ever seen. So we went. People had as much to eat as they wanted and you were shuffled off to go into camp to go to bed. The next morning you were taken to a kitting out place and given a uniform to fit you out as best you could. And then you were given a telegram form to fill in to send home to your parents. And that were the first thing they knew about me being alive. And then you were given a railway ticket to get off home on indefinite leave. That was it, so your job as Bomber Command were finished. You didn’t know what was going to happen after that. Well, after about six weeks leave you got called back again. I got called to Cosford near Wolverhampton. I went to Cosford and that, that was a shock for such as us. I mean I were then a WO but it was one of those what I shouldn’t call it but a bullshit place. Stones were painted white. And all guards were there with white webbing on and all that sort of thing. It was a big RAF training camp. And also it was a big sports camp there at Cosford with a swimming pool and a track and all that sort of thing. They used to teach the RAF sportsmen all what they had to do. It were just a gathering place for us. And I think we were there for two weeks. And then we were sent off. There would be, probably fifty of us at that time, to Hereford. Went to Hereford which was now the what do they call these special forces? It’s their, it was their, it’s their camp now. The army special forces. But that was another one. It had been a flight, a flight mechanics training place and an officer’s training place. Well, that was another one that was a bit what I class as bullshitty style. And we were arriving in old usual battledress on and a bit scruffy really because we’d got out of discipline altogether. Well not out of discipline but out of being in your first grade uniform. You were just as you used to fly with your battledress top and your trousers and that was it. And we got there and they were just emptying the place as an officer’s training place. And there were a few, a contingent of Dutch airmen there. Young lads training to be flight mechanics. And when we arrived and there must have been two hundred of us eventually, we were in different billets. And we found our own billets and, and I came across one of the blokes who, one of my Geordies I’d first joined up with there. So we were together again. Macpherson. And we carried on there. What they did with us, they used to gather us together and chop us into groups of about twenty and send you out learning how to throw hand grenades, how to strip a rifle, how to put a machine gun back together. Why the hell do we need this lot for now this war’s finished? War’s finished. And that’s what we were doing all day long. But we used to go down to the mess and there were no food. So we went down parade one morning. About two hundred of us all lined up and all, all ex-Bomber Command, all ex-people who had been on tours and from sergeants to warrant officers. And word went around that when they come to dismiss us stand still. So we all stood there when it came to be dismissed — and what’s? We’ll get so and so to come and read the riot act. The squadron commander. The site commander. Whatever he was. I think he was still one of these officer training people, ‘Well, we’ve no food, you’ve no bread. There’s no meat. There’s no cereals. No nothing. Just these poor Dutch lads doing a few slices of toast and an egg now and then and trying to keep you going on that.’ Well, it wasn’t suitable to us lot after that. So we were stood firm and the commander sent another, a waggon over to Credenhill to, which was a RAF wireless operator’s training place, to fetch a load of food. And they had to fetch this in a blinking waggon and they organised a bit better kitchen staff. And it took them a few weeks to do that. Well, we used to be getting up on a morning, ‘You’re going on a route march today.’ Oh no. No. And half of us would drop out. We’d finish up in picture house in, in Hereford. And one day lights went on in this picture house and there were three big MPs stood up on the stage. ‘We’re looking for — ’ so and so and so and so, ‘That’s missing from camp.’ They had a look around at the cinema half full of flipping ex-Bomber Command lads. So they backed off and went. And that were it. Well, then from there I got posted to 51 Maintenance Unit at Fradley, which is near Lichfield. And it were a bit different to me then because the bloke I got in there, I got sent to Motor Transport Section and I were doing repairs to tractors and fire engines and things. And this, he were a little full time warrant officer. He’d been in for twenty or thirty years. Permanent staff. Warrant officer there and lived in the village next door. They he like us aircrew because we were the same rank as him. Like we were warrant officers and we’d only been for a year. And he took me down to this garage. It was a separate place. And there was this Fordson fire engine there. He says, ‘Do you think you could change this engine?’ I said, ‘What do you mean change the engine? He said, ‘Well take that one out and put a new one in.’ So, I said, ‘Well I can have a try. Who’s going to be showing me and helping me?’ ‘You’re a flight engineer. Have a go.’ So I thought, right and he went off. I looked at this damned thing. Looked in the engine. The bits to take off it, carburettors and things like that to take it out and found a set of blocks. Took engine out. Put the other one back. Put all the bits on. Carburettor, magnetos and various other things, and that were finished. So I finished it off two days later on. He says, ‘Right. You’d better go home then. See you in the morning.’ So I saw him the next morning. He says, ‘Does it work?’ I said, ‘I don’t know if it works. I don’t think there’s any petrol in it.’ He said, ‘Well, there’s some in that tank there. Fill it up. Fill this petrol, this fire engine up and press the starter button.’ And off we went. It were, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘That’s not so bad,’ he says, ‘Right,’ he says, ‘You’d better take it off for a test drive.’ I said, ‘I haven’t got a driving licence.’ He says, ‘That doesn’t matter. You’re on an Air Force camp.’ He says, ‘Take it around the perimeter and just see if it’s alright.’ So there’s me with a bloody, I don’t know what it would be, a four or five tonne flipping fire engine [laughs] changing gears and one thing and another. He got it back and that was it. So I was a bit better friends with him after that. And I used to be on tractors and oh, Coles crane. I learned quite a lot there. But then the government were running out so they shifted me then into an office. And an office was where we used to do this long term storage. There used to be these aircraft flying in. Some of them had just flown in from America. Seven hours flying and things like that and they were putting in, inhibiting them with various materials. All engines were coated and things. And then they were taken away and put on storage. But then at the other end of the camp where they were bringing these aircraft back out of storage and dismantling them for scrap. And they used to bring them down and they used to get axe, fireman’s axe out of the aircraft and just chop into the petrol tanks and let it run out. Put a big, a canopy or something like that onto it and let it run and divert it into a big tank. And then there were a bowser at the side sucking it all out and doing things like that. Well, it used to be all over the blooming place, the fuel. And there were these people riding around in bikes smoking and God knows what. I used to think this is not the place for me. And I used to have to record all these. How many hours it had flown. What inhibitor they’d had put on and all that sort of thing. Well, office work weren’t my cup of tea. But I kept on doing that till one, one day somebody must have ridden down with a bike and thrown a tab end down and aircraft and bowser and the whole lot went up. Three blokes got killed. I thought well this, all excitement. But by this time then I’d met my wife Sheila in the next village. Because we used to go into Lichfield to the dances and we used to, as usual picking the girls up where you could. And I met Sheila and we’ve kept together ever since. That’s what? Sixty eight years now. So, but I carried on. I moved from that job then into — what did I do next? Oh into the tools stores and cycle. Cycle stores and tool stores. So I were in my element with all the different tradespeople. They used to come in and want, and there was a list of tools that each, a plumber had to have or a rigger or a flipping, all that. And I used to be making the tool boxes up. Then when I got demobbed I used to have to count them all and make sure everything were there and send them back to headquarters if they weren’t there. And they got charged for them and things like that. And I was there until I got demobbed. And I got demobbed. Came back home. Went back to my job in printing engineering. They started making printing machines again. And carried on like that with oh — and then I had to go back down to the village to get married. We got married down there. My wife and her sister. We had a double wedding. Had a double wedding. The only one there had ever been in the village. And the village was Alrewas. Do you know where the Arboretum is where all the war memorial things. Well it’s there. That’s where, where my wife comes from. So, and then we came back up here. Finding out, we lived with my mother and father for a year before we could find a house anywhere. And eventually got the house. Started a family. I started making printing machines again. I started going backwards and forwards in England and Ireland repairing them or fitting them and making new ones. And then that developed into going further afield. And I used to be going off on my own to various parts of the world fitting printing machinery up. And then I had three, three sons. And after that I was at home one evening about 11 o’clock there was a bang on the door and some works manager looking for me. He’d been told that I might make a decent works engineer. So I had to go and I said, ‘Well I’m not looking for a job. I’ve just, I’ve got one,’ But I says it would, if I went this was at a factory in town. Employed about two hundred and fifty people. And he says, ‘You wouldn’t have to be going abroad anymore and you could, you know,’ So I went there. A bit of a strange, a lot of strange machinery and things like that but put up with it and did quite well there. I got to the stage where if there were new machinery to be bought the managing director and the works manager used to go. It was mostly to Germany. And they used to take me with them over to Germany to inspect these machines and see whether they were properly suitable for British safety regulations and one thing and another. And different, the different attitude to when I first went to Germany as a POW and this attitude when I was going as a big customer buying a million pound machine. Out to dinner. Out to this. And out. Oh God. Lovely. And that’s how it’s gone until I retired. I didn’t want to retire at sixty five because the job was interesting. I could cope with it fairly well. But it was the policy of the company or the insurance company that ran the pension scheme I don’t know. So I finished at sixty five and that’s it. I think that’ll do for now. Don’t you?
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command I’d like to thank Flight Engineer A Nicholson for his recording at his home on the 22nd of September 2015. Once again, I thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Arthur Nicholson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mick Jeffery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ANicholsonA150922
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:10:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur was released from his reserved occupation as an apprentice engineer to join the Royal Air Force. After St John’s Wood, he underwent some basic training at RAF Bridlington and RAF Usworth before going on an engineering course at RAF St Athan for six months. He also attended a course in Liverpool at Handley Page, the manufacturer of Halifaxes. His brother, a navigator, was killed whilst he was at RAF St Athan. Arthur joined the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall and describes crewing up. He was posted to 51 Squadron at RAF Snaith. His pilot had an injury, so his first two operations were with a different crew. His remaining operations were mainly night flights over Germany.
Arthur describes some of the incidents he encountered. The most notable was a daylight operation to Cologne towards the end of the war. The starboard engines caught on fire and they had to bail out. He was taken as a prisoner of war and, after interrogation in Frankfurt, was taken to a camp in Nuremberg. En route their train was bombed by American aircraft. They had very little food but were liberated by the Americans. Arthur was flown in a C-47 to Reims and on to RAF Tangmere in a Lancaster. He went to RAF Cosford, then RAF Hereford and was posted to the 51 Maintenance Unit at RAF Fradley. He eventually was sent to the Motor Transport Section before being demobilised.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Nuremberg
Great Britain
England--Sunderland (Tyne and Wear)
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
51 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
C-47
crewing up
Dulag Luft
flight engineer
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Heavy Conversion Unit
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
prisoner of war
RAF Bridlington
RAF Riccall
RAF Snaith
RAF St Athan
RAF Usworth
sanitation
shot down
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/505/8403/PDavisSL1501.1.jpg
6e4096e9e41fc641ba50790df8c92499
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/505/8403/ADavisSL151202.1.mp3
19415213e173ef5ffc6150fd7b822399
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Davis, Sidney Lawrence
S L Davis
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Davis, SL
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sidney Davis. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 617, 619 and 9 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SLD: I’m Laurie Davis. I was a wireless operator in 619 squadron based at Strubby in Lincolnshire. I joined at Lords Cricket Ground at 10 o’clock in the morning on the 17th of May and found out that evening, when I went to St John’s Wood, the billet, that it was the morning that 617 returned from the Dambusters raid which brought back memories at the end of my squadron career but like all air crew we did our training. I was a wireless op and eventually I found myself at Silverstone and we went into a massive room and we were just told that you would come out the other end as a six man crew and this was somewhat flabbergasting but I wandered around and coming towards me was a chap, sergeant, we were all sergeants in those days, with wings up and we looked at one another and I said, ‘Are you with anyone?’ And he said, ‘No.’ And we introduced ourselves. Johnny Taylor from Bristol. And we wandered around and we found a chap, a navigator Jack [?] he came from Bath. We joined up. We thought, well, we’re halfway there and then we saw a chap with his B brevvy up. A bomb aimer. And he was Norman [?] a Londoner. Came from Potters Bar. So we were almost there. We thought we only wanted a couple of gunners now and we saw these two chaps coming along together. Compared with me being just twenty they were mature men to say the least but probably they were only in their mid-thirties but it turned out they were both married. Joe Crossland turned out to be the mid upper gunner. He was from Wakefield and Tommy [Klines] who was the rear gunner, he was from Warrington. So we all joined up finished up the other end of this room with a cup of tea or a coffee and it was then that the skipper as we called him, Johnny, John Taylor, said, ‘We’ll call you Red,’ because at that time I had bright red hair. So the rest of my time with that enjoyable crew was I called Red. We moved on there for a couple of weeks, three weeks I think, on Wellingtons. A noisy, rattly old thing and then we went on to Syerston on to Stirlings. Again, just familiarisation and that and that was then we picked up another member of the crew. An engineer and he came from St Helen’s and I must admit he’s the one fellow that I can’t recall a name all the time and to this day I still try to find out his surname and Christian name. Anyway, we then went on to Lancasters and to conversion and then finished going on to 619 squadron in Strubby at Lincolnshire and we did some flying around for a week and lo and behold we knew that to go on operations the pilot always went with an experienced crew and that caused a bit of sensitive humour because there was always some wit thrown in and Johnny Taylor came back from his office one morning and said, ‘I’m flying tonight with a crew,’ so we joked we’d sort out all his personal possessions and share them out if he didn’t come back because we knew that sometimes that’s what happened, unfortunately. So later in the afternoon I get a call to go to the wireless office to be told that I was flying with him and of course that caused more humour and we went off and with Flying Officer Whitely, a senior there and, believe it or not, it was the longest trip I did of the twelve raids. We went to Dresden. Nine hours twenty minutes and quite something in my memory to see the vastness of the fires as a first time on there because when you finished and the pilot and bomb aimer were doing a run up to the target, about a mile and a half or two miles away, my job was to stand up in the astrodome and keep a lookout above mainly because as I found out on the other raids you saw aircraft on other raids with their bomb doors open above you left and right so interrupting the bomb aimer who was calling to the pilot, ‘Steady. Left. Left. Steady. Left,’ I would say, ‘Johnny, there’s one at 11 o’clock’ or, ‘one at 2 o’clock,’ and he’d try and move over to save the bombs coming down through us. It was successful, that Dresden trip and we came back and we were very privileged and lucky to get through eleven more as a crew.
[machine paused]
MJ: It’s on.
SLD: Having, having experienced, pilot and I, our first raid which was horrendous as has proved over the years with Dresden we settled down to training flights and then successfully got through eleven more. One, one that again focusses in my mind of how lucky you are to be here today is we went to an oil refinery called Harburg just outside of Hamburg and as I experienced on the Dresden raid you flew in some two miles away with a straight course for the bomb aimer and the pilot but on this occasion all I could see over the target was a series of ten and fifteen searchlights and we were a mile or so away but I remember at least three aircraft were caught in the lights, hit by the barrage and exploded into a ball and down they went. And I can think, think now to myself thinking well I hope they don’t pick us up before we’ve got rid of ours but we managed to get through, drop the bombs and come out the other side and that’s the hairiest one I would think apart from the Dresden. The dramatic scenes of fire. But the raids, we were lucky and successful and as I say we did eleven as a crew. Twelve in all and they were great colleagues. When the European war finished we were switched to Waddington. 617. And we were involved in what they called Dodge and Exodus and that was flying POWs, our POWs from Italy, Naples and Bari back to England and we used to take twenty four soldiers out, sitting in the fuselage and fly them out and then do a return trip and the humorous part was, I suppose it’s humorous at our age of twenty, twenty one, I was still not twenty one but on the way back they wanted to go in to the mid upper turret so we used to say, I think we used to say, ‘Don’t go around one side more than twenty times otherwise it’ll unscrew,’ but they loved to and to see the patchwork quilt that was England really. They would go up forward by the navigator, the engineer or the bomb aimer and see it so the joy on their faces was worth every second of those flights, being POWs for years and came back. And then towards the end of ‘45 we’d been waiting to fly out to India as nine, with 9 squadron as part of the Tiger Force intending to bomb Japan from the isle of Okinawa where the Americans had made two runways. One for them and one for us. Anyway, it got postponed night after night. We went for a few drinks into Lincoln, came back and the whole station was alight. We said, ‘What’s happened?’ He said, ‘You’re taking off at 4 o’clock,’ and this was about 12 o’clock [laughs] so we packed all our gear, pouring with rain, and flew off to Tobruk then to Cairo and then Karachi and then down to a place called Digri just outside of Calcutta and we were there for a few months practicing different types of bombing and that with 9 squadron and of course the Japs surrendered so we came back. We landed at St Mawgan and we were given a rail pass and four days to get back to Waddington and that was the end of our crew as a unit flying. I was posted to Woodbridge in Suffolk where I found myself as a warrant officer looking after, with twelve men, three hundred polish chaps who were waiting to go home and I’d only stayed there about six months and I was posted to RAF in Germany, Bad Eilsen and stayed out there for just over a year at Signals Headquarters but to me the experiences that I had before and the company with friends was just a holiday really because I was very active in running and football and cricket and that’s what I toured around with the RAF team and we won the RAF Inter-Services, well the British Forces Inter-Services football match at Cologne stadium. Again, as a highlight because it was the army that was going to win the final. They had every army person there, senior level, we beat them and the whole reception afterwards went down like a lead balloon.
[machine pause]
SLD: Right. Laurie Davis, otherwise Red, from there, from the 619 squadron. When I left the Germany in November ‘47 I’ve kept in touch with various groups through my son and until this year I’ve done six marches at the cenotaph on Armistice Day but this year there was insufficient members to march so they didn’t lay a wreath on behalf of Bomber Command but on the 31st of October I meet up with the squadron and adjoining that group was a bomb aimer, Joe Dutton, he’s treasurer and secretary of 619 and we meet there and have a meal and go over and have a look at the statue and lay a wreath and it always amazes me that people that look at it and say, ‘Why are people raising their hand above their eyes?’ And I said to several, ‘When you came back off a raid three or 4 o’clock in the morning and left your aircraft and waiting in the layby waiting to be picked up to go for debriefing and then you hear in the darkness another flight coming in and you just automatically put your hand up to look, see, ‘Oh I wonder who this has made it back again with us?’ And that’s it and that is the feeling that goes on that you were lucky and you respect the fact that you’ve made it back and I was talking to Joe Dutton only in October that, I think I said to him that if we weren’t going on a raid tonight we’d probably go into the village and have a drink and I said here it is seventy one years ago and we’re lucky to be able to do that. Just mentioning something people often said, ‘Didn’t you feel anything of bombing the targets?’ And I go back to fifteen and a half years of age in Portsmouth when they had the biggest raid, the 10th of January 1941, fire watching with my dad outside the house and experience this whistle and continuous whistle and getting closer and closer. Little did I know that it was a bomb and then everything went black, covered in dust and our house had disappeared and that for me thinks, not apportioning blame but they did start it and Plymouth and London and Portsmouth and Southampton but it’s one of those and I’m very grateful and fortunate to have gone through the friendship and association throughout with that crew. Yeah.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command I’d like to thank Laurie Davis at his home in Portsmouth for his recording. Otherwise known as Red. May he travel on well. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Sidney Lawrence Davis
Creator
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Mick Jeffery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-12-02
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Sound
Identifier
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ADavisSL151202, PDavisSL1501
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:15:46 audio recording
Description
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Laurie Davis trained as a wireless operator and first went to RAF Silverstone where crews were formed. Because of his bright red hair, he was then known as ‘Red’. The crew worked on Wellingtons for a few weeks and then Stirlings at RAF Syerston. They then went on to Lancasters and to conversion and finished going on to 619 Squadron based at RAF Strubby in Lincolnshire. Their first operation was on Dresden, the next operation was to an oil refinery just outside Hamburg. At least three aircraft got caught in the searchlights, were hit by the barrage and exploded into a ball. The crew did twelve operations together. Towards the end of 1945 they flew out to India with 9 Squadron as part of the Tiger Force; with 617 Squadron (RAF Waddington) he took part in operations Dodge and Exodus. Laurie was posted to RAF Woodbridge in Suffolk as a warrant officer. After about six months he was posted in Germany. He then toured round with the RAF team for football and cricket, winning the British Forces Inter-Services football match at Cologne stadium. Since leaving Germany in November 1947 he has kept in touch with various groups and has done six marches at the Cenotaph on Armistice Day. He meets up with the squadron every October when they laid a wreath.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Oxfordshire
India
Germany
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1945
1947-11
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
619 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Silverstone
RAF Strubby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Woodbridge
searchlight
sport
Stirling
Tiger force
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/463/8345/AAllenG150917.2.mp3
2746351851156e8d9988d59fc6e382b8
Dublin Core
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Title
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Allen, Graham
G Allen
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Allen, G
Description
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One oral history interview with Graham Allen.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2015-09-17
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MY: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Malcolm Young, the interviewer [sic] is Graham Allen, and the interview is taking place at Mr Allen’s home in West Hallam, near Ilkeston in Derbyshire. The date is 17th of October 2015. Well thank you very much for agreeing to be part of this oral history and the simple opening question is how did you come to be in the Royal Air Force?
GA: Yes, well I was 19 at the time, and I didn’t want to be called up, I’d rather join up and I preferred the air force to any of the other services, so I went down to the Assembly rooms, as it were in Derby, and fixed a date and they had a word with me and when I went with actual joining up part, it was of course a question of what, what are you going to do? So they asked me a few questions as usual, [inaudible] and they didn’t think my education was up to pilot, navigator, radio operator or anything like that, which I agree with them it wasn’t, I only went to a primary school not secondary school or anything like that, and I realise now that is was very necessary to have that, further education,especially in maths and things like that. So they said well you might [inaudible] flight mechanic, I said well that sounds all right, I asked what was involved, so they told me roughly what it was going to be, and I agreed that, that was probably the best way of getting in the air force. Right, well I was called, it was quite a long time before I was called up 7 months it would be about 19 [hesitation] 1940, the end of 1940 I think, 41 perhaps,
MY: Yes
GA: It was nearly the end of the year, and they eventually called me up for my, it was up to Morecombe which was a training place where we did square bashing and anything that followed up, it was Morecombe, they’d got two big bus garages where the local buses operated from and they turned those into workshops, and all down the side of the workshops were these fighter force bi-planes string bags [?] as we used to call them, so those were the things we had to train on. But before that I had to do the square bashing on the prom at Morecombe, where we were put into civilian digs, and oh parade on the promenade there, and parades in the morning and all that sort of thing, and the prom provided a good parade ground for square bashing, so we had some funny weather while we were doing it.
MY: Yes
GA: But we were alright, I quite enjoyed it. Marching round and rifle and bayonets, all that sort of business,but, then they, because I wanted to be flight engineer, not flight engineer sorry, flight mechanic, I went to one of these bus garages, to the training lot there, and they had some excellent civilian instructors and fitters, and they took us through all the basics of, [slight laugh] what I think of now as quite useless information, when you were taught to do all the rigging of the [?] airframe, by the way, [inaudible] airframe, and when they took us to do all the rigging and tightening all the wires up against templates to get the angle of incidence right, and all that sort of thing, it proved to be quite useless in the end, for us because those sort of aeroplanes had rapidly gone out of business, so anyway, we had quite useful stuff as well as that, and general mechanical details, apart from that we had exams occasionally I forget how many weeks it was now, but we were there for quite a while. [inaudible] did quite well, and they said would you like to go on a fitters course straight away, rather than go on this course as a flight engineer [?] so I took the opportunity went on and followed up with the fitters course, which we had to do more detailed work and more practical work [inaudible] After leaving there, I think that took nearly six months altogether, at the bus garages, I was posted to 152 Squadron, at Swanton Morley in Norfolk, and over there I think the first job was, chief mechanic, there was a pile of , there was a pile of Spitfire wheels in one corner of the hanger, all with tyres on, he says there’s a couple of tyre levers there I want you to get those tyres off before you, my friend and I were joined up together, we actually stayed together, there, there pair of us, worked on these wheels at the start getting all the tyres off [inaudible] So that’s, i remember the first job I had, after that we joined in with the squadron activities more and learned how to rescue the aircraft that had crashed and things like that, in fact the Spitfire was very weak on the undercarriage, and we hadn’t come across that before [?] but they easily broke, you get a bit of bad ground or something like that, because, as you know the Spitfire, they were very close together, and retracted outwards, the Hurricane was wider went inwards so the Spitfires were very, it was a vulnerable part of them, otherwise a pretty good aircraft, so my work there was inspection, partly, various parts and what we were looking for was loose controls and things like that, metal fatigue and various things like that, inspection at various times, as they did the same theses days, so most of my work was that, and dealing with these crashed aircraft that came in, that were heavily shot up and damaged and things like that. I remember one way of getting around when an undercarriage had gone, at the time we had an old costermongers cart two wheels and a flat deck like that and two handles that you could get hold of we used to rush out with this costermongers barrow and shout two six and anybody that was available to get hold of the wing tip heaved it onto this, one wing onto this costermongers barrow, we used to wheel it in like that it was quite a regular occurrence in fact. They were still operating it was well after the battle of Britain of course that they were still operating sweeps over the enemy territory and they used to come back, full of beams if they’d shot something up, rolled over the airfield, slow rolls, missing the watch office by [laughter] inches so it was quite exciting at times like that. Now let me think, I was at [inaudible] I stayed with them until, several months we were at Swanton Morley and then we moved to Coltishall which was a bigger place as you probably know, there were two squadrons there 152 and I’m not sure what the other one was, anyway [inaudible] it was going to be equipped with more modern spitfires ours were fairly basic [inaudible] all guns no cannons so they shipped us over to Northern Ireland to Londonderry Eglinton[?] in Londonderry shipped us over there [inaudible] shipped, it was very rough on the way over I remember, and when we got there [inaudible] Belfast I think the route and we spent some time in Northern Ireland at Eglington not doing very much until these new planes came in and the ferry pilots brought them in, and the first time I ever flew was, we hitched a ride back with these ferry pilots, well I’d got a 48 hour pass, it was a bit more than 48 pass, it would be about a 4 day pass and we hitched a ride in a [pause] an old biplane that took passengers [pause]it took about four or five passengers, so then the pilots came over we got talking to them, I was on duty crew that day, that’s why we met them, we were topping the tanks up and that sort of thing and they came in, they brought several new spitfires in. We cadged a lift the next day, we got permission to put our passes forward, two of us hitched a lift on the trip to England, we spent two days in England [slight laugh] back again, that was over by boat then, the Ben-My-Chree was the boat we used to sail in, it was an ex-passenger trip on the Belfast run, in fact it was still battered about because it had been at Dunkirk, there was quite a few holes in the side and things like that. [laughter]I shall always remember it having a look round and things. Anyway we got in on time, back and after about 2 or 3 days leave and we had to hitch hike the rest of the way of course the landings were up north near Ailsa Craig, I remember we passed Ailsa Craig before we landed, as I say they left us there to hitch hike down to our, Derby, and then train back, managed to get back alright without getting jankers or anything like that [laughter] so I did the rest of my life in Northern Ireland on the new Spits that came over. And then while I was there there was a message came through on the routine orders about flight engineers training you could volunteer as a flight engineer if you were a fitter or flight mechanic and it was all to do with the introduction of the four engine bombers. So I [inaudible] and volunteered [laughter] as I’ve often thought and quite soon, we were brought together we had to have an interview in Belfast, with the top brass there asking us why we wanted to be flight engineers and things like that [inaudible] applicants and that, I remember we had to stay the night there in Belfast and there were no proper beds they were sheets of plywood between two posts, in Belfast town hall they made it up for us to stay the night while we were interviewed, so that was my interview for aircrew [slight laugh] Anyway the next thing was I was posted to Aire, now if I get this right [inaudible] posting came through to [long pause] oh I know it was to go to 106 squadron when we’d finished the fitters course, posted to 106 squadron and they have a training wing there or something, it wasn’t a proper training place, they introduced these conversion units, 1654 conversion unit I think it was Swinderby, so first of all we were posted to 106 squadron who were supposed to be at Conningsby anyway we ended up at Conningsby, they said oh they left a fortnight ago, they are at Syerston now so they duly, instead of sending us to Syerston, these conversion units had just started properly and I think it was 1654 at Swinderby, I might have the number wrong, anyway we did Swinderby, posted to Swinderby and there we were crewed up as you know, they practised crewing up [?] chuck you all in a big hanger and sort it out for yourselves, and we did, eventually we arrived at the right crew, they were quite keen on people who had been flight mechanics and things like that fitters. The aircrew had been flying Whitley’s, my crew had, to get two more members a gunner and an engineer they were quite keen on people that had, had a bit of experience on aeroplanes at least,
MY: Yes
very little flying experience on a Spitfire squadron [laughter] in fact the only time I ever flew was that time when we hitched a ride. We did the course at the, forget how long it was now, it wasn’t a terrible long time six or seven weeks or something like that after we’d crewed up, we did quite a few short cross country and things like that and having never been in a war plane before I had to learn it as I went along [slight laugh] and they helped me quite a lot, they knew I knew the stuff on engines
MY: Yes
and things like that so I was able to guide them through that part of it, the rest of the crew we got on very well. My pilot was, we were all sergeants or flight sergeants, he was ex-public schoolboy and he came from London but I got on very well, he taught me a lot and I taught him a lot, and we eventually got posted to 106, and false alarm there in the first place we were able to choose the same squadron, we were originally posted so that was 106, we were interviewed by Wing Commander Gibson as you probably know [laughter]
MY: Yes
and it was quite an interview believe me, they had us in all standing to attention, he was very , very abrupt [inaudible] an arrogant man really and anyway, we got through the interview and I always remember him saying “now you wont get any leave just yet you’ve come here to fight and you either die or finish your tour and get a gong”
MY: [laughter]
and that was part of the interview with Wing Commander Gibson. Anyway we were posted to our usual [inaudible] 106 and first time I flew on operations there we had just done a few to get to know it, flights and [inaudible] the local countryside and things like that, and the new crew, as I say we taught each other a lot, anyway, while we was there I hadn’t done any, we hadn’t been on op’s and one night in January, the 17th of January they put the squadron on op’s, but we weren’t mentioned, but they called me up to the office, [inaudible] and said well we will get you together and brief you and that, right, there’s a chap gone, there’s an engineer gone sick you are in his crew now as flight engineer, just for tonight [?] and of course it was Berlin, [laughter] first time they bombed Berlin for a long time, January 1943 so I went and found my crew, my other crew quite strangers to me, their crew, I think, I don’t think he’s gone sick but from knowing the history of the crew later on I rather think he had gone LMF [lack of moral fibre]
MY: Yes
so they had to find another engineer quick. So I got my first trip as Berlin so all went well for most of the time although it was a bit of a shambles nobody could find the pathfinders flares and everybody seemed to be mixed up and when we eventually, our bomb aimer said right I think I can recognise something, there’s an airfield there its got a peculiar watch office in a horseshoe shape which I know to be Tempelhof airfield and so we dropped the bomb on there, we couldn’t find anything else to drop it on, so we started back no trouble [inaudible] but nothing to write home about and so we started back on the way back and we’d been about oh I should think it’d been about, nearly three quarters of an hour something like that on the way back after, and the shout went up fighter fighter and the usual thing and it was a JU88 coming up behind us, started firing he caught us quite unawares and all I saw was flashing lights flashing passed the cockpit and this JU88 was pumping shells at us our guns did very well though and they shot him down [pause] he came up a bit too close, and they said they claimed him as, then later on they both got immediate DFM’s when they came back. Anyway they shot this JU88 down and I seen it where it was claimed and ratified we came back, except one of the engines was on fire one of our engines was on fire some of the stuff had hit it and it was flaming a bit so I went through the process of feathering and directioning and all that [?] which didn’t work, we kept going for a bit and the pilot eventually said, well get ready to bail out because I don’t think that fire is going to stop, I think its going to spread and anyway we got parachutes ready and things like that, but it did start to go out and something had taken effect and he’d dived quite a long dive to try and get some sort of reaction from that and it seemed to work, I know that sounds like an American film but it did work in that case and the fire went out, and so we were three engines, we set back, set a course back and got back alright but we radioed one of the Manson, Woodbridge or Carnaby, which were the three emergency airfields, I think it was Woodbridge, that we went to and landed there on three, no trouble, it doesn’t matter about one engine gone on the bank, and stayed the night there, we got picked up by, someone fetched us in another Lancaster in the morning took us back, so that was my first op [laughter].
MY: Quite a baptism of fire [laughter]
GA: Really yes, actually it was but [inaudible] were really easy after that, a lot of them anyway, so eventually I went back to my usual crew, then this other crew lasted three weeks after that, they were missing, if fact I’ve got the details where they were shot down [inaudible] on the internet if you wanted to get it [?] all the details where they are buried. [pause] So my crew got pretty good and we got to know most things we were attacked together once or twice, in fact we were a bit naughty sometimes but we didn’t get badly damaged or anything like that. Ah, what’s next in my story? [laughter] I had quite an uneventful, comparatively uneventful, we had our up and downs of course, didn’t get badly damaged or anything like that, until I was near to the end of the tour I think I was about two, think I was thirty, two, two off thirty, but some of the crew had made the thirty, because they had been on these submarine spotting on Whitley’s before, they said well you might as well, you’re with them so I was put off ops at twenty eight instead of thirty and they posted me to another, one of the con units to instruct there,
MY: Which conversion unit, can you recall?
GA: Yes, let me think on, I was at one or two places, Wigsley [?] which is now called Pigsley [?] in the books, it was such a rough place, [inaudible] in the books it was that rough they called it Pigsley, it was pretty rough, Wigsley, Skellingthorpe [long pause] let me think about this, I would say look in the log book but we didn’t put the stations in the log book, I think I ought to show you the log book to start with, I’ll show it you before we’ve finished,
MY: Fine I shall look forward to that,
GA: Anyway, I was transferred to several of these conversion units probably one of them but not, and round about the end of one of the con units I was sent back apparently on ops to do a second tour on ops to 463 Australians, now they were at Waddington, which was very much of a change from Wigsley, [laughter]
MY: Yep
GA: And at Waddington they posted my old Skipper McGregor with me, we made a pair for a new scheme they’d got checking crews at so many ops I think it was five ops, ten ops, fifteen, that was it about fifteen we assumed they knew their stuff by then, they’d either be missing or they knew their stuff by fifteen ops, anyway we spent I suppose, we were both on this quite a long time we were officially on ops but we were only a pair, we were without the rest of the crew, McGregor and myself, were on this job of checking the crews at various stages they said it saved a lot of trouble, it kept them up to scratch in other words
MY: Yes
GA: And try telling Aussies they were doing something wrong wasn’t easy, it some cases [laughter] but we got on very well with them actually in the end, and we were quite respected members of the squadron, I remember they, they made me a, at one of the mess parties they made me an honorary Australian gave me a Kangaroo badge to wear, it was on the ground floor by the way, opened the window at Waddington and we got slung out onto the flower bed outside [laughter] so they called me a, honorary Australian after that. Anyway we got on very well with them in the end until they were posted back to Australia and they had to find me a crew. Before then though I’d, my skipper left me he’d gone on one of these other crews then, he went to Metheringham at 106 back at Metheringham, they moved from Syerston to Metheringham, and they posted him back to Metheringham, and he was on these Lincolns, in fact he wrote to me asking if I’d like to go back with him, but then before I’d got chance to reply they made Metheringham on the Lincolns they didn’t want flight engineers unless they’d done pilot training, well I’d never done pilot training, except on the squadrons, I flew Lancaster’s on my own quite a bit on the squadrons, when I was with an Aussie pilot which I got in the end, we were back flying prisoners of war back from France and Belgium and places like that, and it was this Aussie pilot and his crew, and he used to walk around in the fuselage [inaudible] and leave me to fly it [laughter] so I’ve flown Lancaster’s quite a lot but not taken off, or not landing, but I’ve got quite a few hours on flying the Lancaster on my own
MY: Good
GA: So, anyway that was part of the training and I was with them until they actually all of them went back to Australia, then they posted me as assistant adjunct administration Squadron something like that,
MY: Yes
GA: Which from then on I was demobbed,
MY: This story that’s in the Bomber Command Association magazine that being attacked by a 262 could you say something about that?
GA: Sorry, that was when I was with the Australian squadron, at Waddington, I did actually go back on ops real ops, and that was one of them.
MY: Yes
GA: Well we went, now my pilot was, my old pilot in that case he hadn’t left the 106, so he was, he got me as engineer because I was his engineer all the time, I hadn’t acted as one on ops until then, so they put us both back on ops the picture, the crew out of oddments that were left odd Australians that were left hadn’t gone back and some of them English, some Australian. Anyway I hardly knew the crew except the pilot, anyway we went in daylight, we had been practising two days before, formation flying, formation flying with the Lancaster squadron, its was a gaggle, they used to call it a gaggle, roughly behind each other and that sort of thing, and we were in this gaggle, and we got about I think it was about ten thousand feet something like that, it was, we had got to go quite a long way and we got over the channel or the North Sea, North Sea, we were at Hamburg, and we were, how did it happen? We were going along nicely on the way to Hamburg, and suddenly, red flares went up, that was the signal for being attacked, and we looked round and saw these, oh sorry, I am over running my story a little, I don’t know if you can do anything about that on there.
MY: Don’t worry
GA: On the way out, on the way out, we were still in England we had an engine failure, starboard outer, and it was the shaft that drives the magnetos, there is one shaft that drives two magnetos and it snapped, broke, it’d got a weak spot in it that actually sheared, so both magnetos were out, so literally it just windmilled, so I had to feather that, we decided to , skipper decided to try and keep up with them and keep up with the gaggle, but we were in a losing battle, we couldn’t keep up with the other Lancs. we were well behind by the time we got over there and on the way to Hamburg, so, this is when we were, got to Hamburg, there was 617 with us, they had got Tallboys, and they’d certain things that they had got to do there, and we were back up with 617 and made up about sixty aircraft [inaudible] we were on the tanks and things like that the rest of us, anyway we kept on to Hamburg, well behind by the time we got anywhere near it, the formation had left us, and we were on our own and we suddenly saw these red lights go up, red flares go up, ahead of us where the [inaudible] squadron was then we saw these 262’s diving down straight through the formation, and [pause] we were well behind and said well if their getting that treatment were going to be in trouble soon, anyway, one of the ones, they shot two Lancs. down well ahead of us and one of them they shot the tail straight off, they’d got cannons in these things, they’d gotfour cannons, four thirty millimetre cannons, in the nose of the 262, it must have just hit it [smacking sound] like that, about middle [?] of the door, and I should think it would be about a mile in front of us or something like that by that time, we were well behind the main squadron, and we saw this tail plane and the top bit of the door floating down like that with the gunner still in it, and the rest of the Lanc straight down without the tail, so there were two missing that day, that was one of them. So we eventually said well they haven’t seen us yet, but we went a little bit further and saw one coming towards us so we started pumping red lights out of the out of the very pistol, the wireless op had that, they had a signal, they screwed into the top by the wireless operator, and he got hold of the cartridge, anyway he used up all his red ones [laughter] and used most of the others as well, trying to attract attention , we got a supposedly an escort of mustangs, but we hadn’t seen them until then, and suddenly, way after we saw this shot coming at us and he hit us, knocked another engine out on the same side, but it didn’t set on fire fortunately, just knocked it out and he was coming round for another do, and these mustangs appeared, two mustangs, that was in my picture [?] and this 262 cleared off as soon as he saw the mustangs coming before he had another go at us I was very lucky.
MY: So did you finish your operational flying on 463?
GA: Yes, I only did, I went to Pilsen another one [pause] and err now, Pilsen, it’s in the log book [?] I can show you it, and then we finished operational flying, 463 it’s the last one I did in fact that was the end of the war. While I was still on 463.
MY: How long after that was it you were demobbed?
GA: [pause] We were sent on these postings and assistant adjutant after that, only about six months I should think, six months at the outside, yes. [pause]
MY: What did you do once you had left the RAF at the end of the war?
GA: I went back to my old firm as a rep at first, I did a full bound apprenticeship, at a printing firm and they were still in operation when I came back and they had got a vacancy for a rep that had just left them so I wrote to the manager and asked him if I could apply he said yes and he interviewed me while I was still in the RAF and I got the job as their rep when I actually left which was within about a couple of months, something like that, so the rest of the time, for most of my life i’ve spent as a rep with this printing firm.
MY: And are you local to, in the Derby area?
GA: Yes, yes, it was called Derby printers limited.
MY: Right
GA: It no longer exists but [pause]
MY: Quite a change I should imagine from the hectic life you had lead during the war.
GA: It was, I can’t remember some of it, these days my memory isn’t what it used to be, as you’ve seen me tonight, I have sort of misplaced time haven’t I? Quite a lot of it, [inaudible] by the way I didn’t have a car in those days, I had to use all railways and buses and walking
MY: [laughter]
GA: It ranged between Liverpool, Manchester, London, Northampton, sort of area I covered and eventually they bought me a car after about six months, after about, no not six months more like six years
MY: [laughter]
GA: [pause] And, I eventually became general manager at the same firm after I finished as a rep, at that time the manager was retiring and I got the job as general manager, a bit earlier because he died before he retired.
MY: If you just think back to the time while you were in Bomber Command and the places where you were stationed what sort of relationship did the people on the station have with the local villages and towns?
GA: Well at Syerston where I did most of my ops there was a farmhouse on the perimeter and when we were taxying round to go to the end of the runway there were about fifty people on the top of this farmhouse and the buildings there, never missed they were all waving flags and giving us the go ahead, and then the, of course they weren’t allowed on the actual aerodrome, there were enough people at the caravanners, you know the people who used to gather at the caravan to wave you off. There was only, they were all civilians at this place, at Syerston, and so they all gathered on all sorts of standing up places to look over, waving us off, so that was good. As regards the, we never really met them [inaudible] the local, there was never a local village it wasn’t very near a village, you used to see people in the pubs, but we used to go to Lincoln occasionally, but, as far as I could tell we had good relations, but nothing striking, Lincoln was our main town if we wanted a night out, there again I kept with my old pilot here, we got posted together, [inaudible] right to the end, and met him until he went to Metheringham.
MY: And did he survive the war?
GA: Yes,
MY: Good.
GA: He was an insurance man with the Sun Insurance, and he opted to go to South Africa, to their branch in South Africa, and he stayed there and he wrote to me quite a few years eventually it dropped off a bit [inaudible] I know that he was alive in South Africa, up to, oh, six or seven years ago and my gunner [inaudible] he got in touch with me, I found him, [inaudible] his address in England when he came over on a visit to his daughter who still lives in England and he had a word or two with him.
MY: I notice that in the book the bomber boys, you’re pictured in your flight engineers seat, was that on 106?
GA: Yes [pause] we had a drop down seat, we a drop down seat, no back on it or anything like that, so we could sit there if we wanted, we stood most of the time, take off, take off we stood up took the throttles up to the gate and push them to the gate if necessary, wheels up, flaps, used to do all that, standing up, it wouldn’t have been very good in a crash would it?
MY: And then you’d stay standing for most of the trip?
GA: Quite a lot yes, there’s a bubble on the side window of a Lancaster and if you’re in expected, or position port shall we say, fighters about you used get in there to look underneath,
MY: Amazing
GA: But that seat we used it on cross country’s and that sort of thing, if you wanted a rest, but it wasn’t much of a seat there were no safety belts on it or anything like that [laughter] [pause]
MY: What was the average sort of length of an operational sortie whilst you were flying?
GA: Well we did a lot to the Ruhr which was about, [pause] between five and six hours I should think, according to which end of the Ruhr you took, and then there’s places like [pause] let me get my log book out,
MY: Mmmm, is it in here?
GA: Its in there, much battered, that’s the medals [laughter] which I shall be wearing at the do I think
MY: I should hope so
GA: [inaudible]
MY: Yes
GA: [rustling]Right, I made this myself, [pause, rustling] Oh that’s the crew waiting to go, [pause]my skipper, and Gibson, the rest of the crew is the ones, by the way I forgot to tell you that, they took him the first night as a [inaudible]Berlin was on two nights, the first night I was on, sorry the first night the skipper was on, with that crew, and Richard Ingleman was with them doing the [inaudible] the commentary on it, while they were there [?] [inaudible] I got hold of this [inaudible] this, the bomb aimer was a navel bloke [inaudible]
MY: Oh lord
GA: [pause] I’m finding it, [inaudible, rustling] there’s a bit of damage, [pause] Very interesting pilot I used to fly with, [pause] Bonham Carter, Group Captain Bonham Carter, he was a CO at Wigsley [laughter] and he took me on my commissioning interview, and he used to come into the crew room sometimes and, anybody want a trip to Swinderby, anywhere like that, he’d say I’ve got to go and see an old pal so I want an engineer, so I used to go and fly with him sometimes [laughter] [rustling]
MY: At what stage, [cough] pardon me, at what stage were you commissioned?
GA: When we, after we’d finished ops and when we had been posted to a conversion unit
MY: Right,
GA: [pause, rustling] oh I can’t find, [pause, rustling] Stuttgart six hours, Pilsen eight fifteen, Berlin seven forty five, these are the hours, [pause] this is [pause] typical entry in the log book how many hours, how many trips in a month [pause] got a few Gibson signatures in there, you see [pause] [rustling, pause]
MY: There he is Guy Gibson, OC 106 squadron,
GA: Right
MY: This of course was, its was when he finished this tour that he went to take on 617
GA: Right, that’s right he went from there, you’ll see his signature suddenly ends, some of the flight commanders had to sign it, that was when he went to, six, 617.
MY: Did anybody else from 106 go with him?
GA: Yes, I am trying to think which one it was now, I read the book [laughter] and that sort of thing, there was only one of them, from 106 [pause]
MY: I see you’ve got Halifax as well as Lancaster
GA: Yes they
MY: In here
GA: They wanted to save the Lancaster’s for ops so they got a lot of, they were trying to make them all Lancaster squadrons so as the Halifax squadrons became redundant, they had, we had Stirling’s, Halifax’s as well as Lancs. on the conversion units [pause]
MY: Was there, much difference between them in terms of flying characteristics the Halifax and the Lancaster?
GA: The Halifax was a, it wouldn’t handle like the Lancaster at all, it was prone to getting out of awkward positions when flying, used to drop a wing and that sort of thing on it, the Lanc wouldn’t, so in the Lanc you could bring the throttles right back, pull you stick right back to, till you wait until it stalled it went down perfectly straight like that, [inaudible] gentle. The Halifax would start spinning, the Stirling it just couldn’t get up above 12,000 feet, they’d not carry very much anyway
MY: No
GA: But it was beautiful to fly in the air
MY: The Stirling?
GA: Yes, very steady [?] [inaudible]
MY: So which, presumably you did Stirling’s in your first heavy conversion unit did you?
GA: Yes
MY: Yes there we are
GA: Some of them are in there yes [pause]
MY: And was the, you hear lots of stories about the real affection that people had for the Lancaster, is that correct?
GA: Oh yes, nothing quite like it really, the others that I’d flown in, [inaudible] Stirling’s and the Halifax’s, not on operations though. We got back, by the way on that last one I was telling you about where we attacked by the 262’s
MY: Yes
GA: They shot the other engine out so we came back with two on one side, and it was perfectly alright got a bit warm the engines, but [laughter] there we, we contact the emergency airfield and that was, I think that was Woodbridge, it was one of the three big ones, it had a very wide runway and when they knew you were coming in on two engines on one side, they got a fire engine on one side ambulance on the other [laughter] [inaudible] foam all over the runway like that,
MY: But it was a successful landing was it?
GA: Yes, perfect landing, yes, that was my old pilot as well he was pretty good,
MY: This chap McGregor yes
GA: Yes
MY: Right
GA: Yes, he was a good friend and I am sorry he went to South Africa, so I didn’t see much of him after that,
MY: So would you, its funny question to ask in one sense given that were talking about war time, but did you enjoy your time, in, in Bomber Command?
GA: [pause] Yes, I did enjoy a lot of it yes, enjoyed flying and there were times when I wished I hadn’t but [laughter] but yes I did, I liked flying
MY: I note from your log book that there are a number of occasions when you would do trips on consecutive nights.
GA: Yes
MY: What did it feel like when you’d just come back from what would have been a quite traumatic experience, knowing that in twenty four hours you would be doing it all again?
GA: It was horrible really when they put them too close together like that, yes I didn’t like that part but I suppose it was necessary in those days, [inaudible] no I look back now and think how on earth did we stick it out and
MY: Well of course you were all very young men then weren’t you
GA: We were, we were
MY: Very resilient, the resilience of youth
GA: Exactly, yes, they had a different attitude to life, yes, but it, where they stick that close together it its not [laughter] it doesn’t sound right now does it?
MY: And when you got back from a sortie did you feel really fatigued?
GA: Yes, but not until you got in bed, things going round still, yes, [pause] some of the huts were, the accommodation was quite primitive in some of the [inaudible] some of the huts at Wigsley used to leak and you slept with your ground sheet on top of you, on top of your blankets
MY: [laughter]
GA: [pause, laughter] But places like Waddington and Syerston they were very good, [pause] Aye, have I taken up a lot of your time yet?
MY: I am intrigued by everything you have had to say, seriously,
GA: Are you
MY: Believe it or not we have been at it for nearly an hour and a half,
GA: Have we really
MY: And the time has literally flown
GA: Oh I haven’t dried up have I
MY: No you haven’t, It’s been absolutely marvellous
GA: I am afraid I have made a few mistakes, in timing like I did when I made a mistake in the last daylight we where things happened, and of course id you’d have said six months before that you’ve got to go and bomb Hamburg in daylight, [laughter] don’t be daft, it shows how the war deteriorated, because I mean I’d never seen a 262 before, neither had anybody else that I know
MY: Well they moved pretty fast as well didn’t they
GA: Oh yes, [laughter] but evidently, I don’t know who it was now I don’t think it was one of our squadron that got its tail shot off, makes you realise what fire power they’d got, I mean alright setting someone on fire, with your firepower but to see door I suppose is the weak spot of the fuselage to see it just literally chopped off like that its amazing, mmm.
MY: And presumably you have got your Bomber Command Clasp, at last
GA: [laughter] I have did you see it?
MY: I did yes, but um yes I was delighted when they finally saw sense and you know sort of
GA: Yes
MY: Gave that out, gave in to that and its, its so important it... but [pause] but you have, I mean it’s an amazing record, you’re sort of one and half tours on ops,
GA: Yes
MY: A distinguished flying medal, the Bomber Command Clasp I think its, for somebody who themselves has been a pilot in the Royal Air force its absolutely wonderful to sit and listen to things like this it really is absolutely marvellous
GA: I’m glad you were a pilot because you’ve understood a lot of what I’ve said
MY: Well of course its one of the things that attracted me to the whole project in the first place, because I have my own time, my own time in the service, I’ve always been, had a great interest in military history the air force history and to actually speak to people who were there
GA: Yes, yes
MY: Is, it so is, it’s an honour for me to be able to speak to people like you
GA: Good, I’ve got my grandson in-law is a pilot, so were following on [inaudible]
MY: Is he?
GA: He flies Hercules, and he’s now instructing on choppers,
MY: Oh right
GA: At, where they train all the navy and air force people together now
MY: What at Shorebury, at shorebury?
GA: Shorbury, yes
MY: Shorbury near Shrewsbury, oh right
GA: Yes, he’s instructor there now, and [inaudible] of lot of his flying on Hercules, to Afghanistan and that district
MY: Yes
GA: He was with the SAS team at one time, dropping them off the tail of the Hercules,
MY: I was talking to somebody the other day and we were commenting how, most, about five of the most senior posts in the royal air force, including the chief of the air staff
GA: Yes
MY: Are now helicopter pilots
GA: Are they really
MY: And that is a thing you wouldn’t have been able to say ten years ago,
GA: It is, it is
MY: but they, him his number two, another guy, Basnorth [?] the commandant of the royal air force college at Cranwell is a helicopter pilot and do you know, since the second world war, the only guy to walk round with a DFC with two bars is a helicopter pilot
GA: Really, DFC and two bars,
MY: And he won them in Iraq, and Afghanistan
GA: Oh yes
MY: he‘s now the station commander at Odiham,
GA: Ah
MY: But its quite a, I mean the helicopter fleet is, is so important nowadays, its as important, at least as important as the sharp pointy nose things that I used to fly, so it, its and its lovely to see
GA: Oh aye, aye, [inaudible] I can’t understand helicopters, he’s showed me inside one, I’ve never been in one and never been up in one
MY: Yes
GA: [inaudible]
MY: There we are,
GA: [rustling, inaudible] I was going to show you me grandson, we were together at the opening of the Bomber Command Memorial
MY: Oh right, so you’ve got a, let me take my papers away, and then we’ll be able to see, what you are doing [rustling] [inaudible] is it in there?
GA: No [inaudible]
MY: Was it in your black folder? I think what I’ll do is I’ll switch this off now
GA: Yes yes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Graham Allen
Creator
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Malcolm Young
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-17
Format
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01:12:42 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAllenG150917
Description
An account of the resource
Graham Allen joined the Royal Air Force aged 19. He trained as a mechanic and worked on inspection and recovery of Spitfire aircraft. He later volunteered to be a flight engineer, and flew a tour of operations with 106 Squadron. His first operation was to Berlin; they were attacked by a Ju 88 and returned on three engines. After the war he returned to work for a printing firm in Derby.
Contributor
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Linda Saunders
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
106 Squadron
463 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
fitter airframe
flight engineer
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Me 262
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
P-51
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Wigsley
RAF Woodbridge
runway
Spitfire
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1825/33684/SBrennanJ1210913v20004-00020003.1.jpg
2e94d9db3d7c0e28d527952fa8407be0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Brennan, Jack
John Brennan
J Brennan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Brennan, J
Description
An account of the resource
Twenty-four items.
The collection concerns Sergeant John Brennan DFM (1210913 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book as well as documents including a Goldfish Club certificate, notes from station and squadron operational record book with details of activities and operations, memoirs, newspaper cuttings and correspondence. In addition, contains operation order and other details for 617 Squadron's attack of German dams on 16/17 May 1943.
He flew operations as a wireless operator with 102 and 35 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by T Noble and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[boxed] SQUADRON HISTORIES [/boxed]
[crest]
[italics] THE WINGED HORSE'S HEAD in the badge of 35 Squadron commemorates its co-operation with the cavalry in the First World War. Translation of the motto is "We act with one accord." Authority for the badge was given by King Edward VIII in October, 1936. [/italics]
OVER 400 TIMES THEY LED THE WAY
First of the Pathfinders
NIGHT after night they flew eastwards into danger.
Always they were there, ahead of the main bomber group, leading, guiding, indicating.
To them the men of the R.A.F.'s select Pathfinder Force, goes the highest of praise.
Their magnificent work ensured that Bomber Command's all-out efforts during the Second World War were not wasted, that the bombs hit Germany where it hurt most.
Among the most distinguished of the Pathfinder squadrons was No. 35.
With 7, 83 and 156 Squadrons it formed the nucleus of the force in August, 1942. And from then until the end of the war it supplied marking aircraft for no fewer then 425 attacks.
From St. Nazaire to Berlin and from Turin to Hamburg its aircraft clearly and effectively showed the way.
And the outstanding courage of its crews earned over 50 D.S.O.s, D.F.C.s and D.F.M's
But it wasn't only as a Pathfinder squadron that No. 35 gained distinction.
For 18 months before becoming one it had already been [missing letter]itting hard at a great variety of targets, from factories at Manheim to the battleship Tirpit[missing letter] at Trondheim.
It was, in fact, the [missing letters]rst squadron to us Halifaxes. It received them at Leeming, Yorks. on November 20. 1940.
From Madras
[italics] The money for them was [missing letters]vided by people of the Mad[missing letters] Presidency. And in appre[missing letters]tion the squadron has [missing word] been officially known as [missing numbers] (Madras Presidency) Squadron [/italics]
It was the intention of [missing word] Madras Provincial War Com[missing letters]tee to commemorate the gift [missing word] some more permanent to[missing letters] Soon after the war, [missing words] presented the squadron with a writing-table set, comprising an inkstand, blotting-pad and roller-blotter, all of Indian beaten silver and bearing the Madras Presidency arms.
No. 35 also saw much action in the First World War.
It was formed at Thetford, Norfolk, from a nucleus of 9 (Reserve) Squadron, on February 1, 1916.
After a period of training it flew to France on January 25, 1917, as a Corps squadron. Its aircraft were Armstrong Whitworth F.K.8s.
[italics] It was soon in the thick of the fray. Without respite it did sterling work in the Battles of Arras, the Somme, Ypres and Cambrai. [/italics]
Casualties were often heavy, but there was never any sign of faltering.
Advancing with the Army and carrying out a mixed bag of duties, from bombing to laying smoke-screens, it kept up the pace [indecipherable word] up to the Armistice.
Ten-year break
It returned to Britain early in 1919 and was disbanded on June 26 at Netheravon.
When it was re-formed on March 1, 1929, at Bircham Newton, Norfolk, it became a bomber squadron.
At first it received D.H. 9As, but they were soon replaced by Fairey 3Fs. Then in 1933 came Gordons.
In October, 1935, after the Italians had invaded Abyssinia, the squadron was sent to the Middle East. It stayed ten months.
Back home it faced a period of reorganisation. After moving in 1938 from Worthy Down to Cottesmore, it received Battles and Ansons. Then in 1939 came a move to Cranfield.
Quick start
For the first year of the war No. 35's duties were confined to training. But it soon made up for lost time.
Based at Linton-on-Ouse, it struck its first blow at the enemy on March 11, 1941, with a raid on the docks at Le Havre.
Other early targets included Bremen, Essen, Hamburg, Hanover, [indecipherable name], Kiel, Rotterdam, Stettin and Turin.
Several attacks were made on the battleships [italics] Scharnhorst and Gnelsenau [/italics] at Brest.
Among first crew-members to win awards were S/Ldr. J. B. Tait, who gained a bar to his D.S.O., and S/Ldr. T. P. A. Bradley who won a D.S.O. and a bar to his D.F.C. The latter was killed three years later in the Far East.
Early in 1942, before it became a Pathfinder squadron, No. 35 hit continually at vital targets in the Ruhr and other parts of Germany.
A change came on two successive nights in April, when attacks were made on the [italics] Tirpitz [/italics] in Trondheim Fjord.
1,000-bomber raid
[italics] Then on May 30 the squadron took part in the first 1,000-bomber raid on Cologne. [/italics]
First Pathfinder operation was made on August 18 against Flensburg. It was not a success.
The crews quickly gained proficiency, however, and were soon providing an effective spearhead to raid after raid.
In an attack on November 18 on Turin, the C.O., W/Cdr. B. V. Robinson, flew back to base at Gravely with his aircraft on fire.
He was killed the following August during a second spell with the squadron. Then a group captain, he had gained a D.S.O. and a D.F.C. and bar
Almost nightly
An attack on Berlin marked the opening of 1943. Then came raids on U-boat bases at Brest, Lorient and St. Nazaire, followed by almost nightly trips to the Ruhr.
Included in targets during June were the Schneider armament works at Le Creusot.
During that month F/Sgt. N. F. Williams, an Australian rear gunner, became the first member of the squadron to win a C.G.M.
[italics] On a raid on Dusseldorf, though partly paralysed through wounds in his body and legs, he stayed in his turret and shot down two enemy aircraft. [/italics]
He already held a D.F.M. and bar.
In August Nuremburg and Peenemunde were among the targets. Then, as another winter of all-out effort began, strong forces were led to Berlin, Hamburg, Hanover, Kassel, Mannheim, Munich and many other towns.
Another outstanding act of gallantry occurred in December S/Ldr. J. Sale, returning to [indecipherable word] with an aircraft extensively damaged by fire, ordered his crew to bale out.
But when he discovered one member had an unserviceable parachute, he stayed at the controls and brought off a most difficult touch-down.
The following March he crashed in Germany and was seriously wounded.
Conversion
That month No. 35 converted to Lancasters and began blasting pre-invasion targets.
[italics] After D-Day it augmented strategic bombing with tactical operations. It gave close support to our troops at Caen and Falaise and bombed the heavy-gun batteries at Walcheren. [/italics]
Attacks against flying-bomb sites and important store centres also formed part of the programme.
On a raid against Dusseldorf in November, S/Ldr. G. A. Patrick, a veteran of 118 sorties, kept on course even though his navigational aids were useless, and made a faultless bombing run.
No letting up
Operating by both day and night, the squadron kept hard at it right to the end.
Targets hit during the last months of the war included Bonn, Cologne, Goch, Mainz and Potsdam.
Final tasks were dropping food to the Dutch and flying home repatriated prisoners of war.
[italics] In July and August, 1946, No. 35 was honoured by being chosen to carry out the R.A.F.'s first post-war goodwill tour. [/italics]
Today it is still a vital part of Britain's striking force, being equipped with Canberras and based at Marham.
There is no doubt that it can always be counted on to maintain the magnificent pattern of efficiency and devotion to duty set by its gallant wartime crews.
[italics] Most of the information in this article was supplied by Air Force historian [indecipherable words] [/italics]
[page break]
[missing number] 6455
[inserted] DAILY TELEGRAPH MON. 29/12/1997 [/inserted]
SIR – I was disappointed that your obituary of Professor R. V. Jones (Dec. 20) mentioned only the Lancasters of Bomber Command. At the start of the Second World War the Wellington, Hampden and Blenheim did sterling service. Later the Command became all four-engined with the Sterling, Halifax and Lancaster.
While the Sterling was not a success, valuable work was done by the 6,000-odd Halifaxes, especially the later versions fitted with Hercules engines. Indeed, some Halifax crews loved to cut one engine on return from a raid and then overtake Lancasters while making an appropriate gesture. And while the Lancaster served only with Bomber Command, the more versatile Halifax operated with both Coastal and Transport Commands and dropped supplies and agents in occupied Europe.
Why is it, these days, that only the Lancaster is ever mentioned?
MIKE USHERWOOD
York
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Two newspaper cuttings
Description
An account of the resource
First - over 400 times they led the way. Article about RAF Pathfinders. Crest and details about 35 Squadron. Also mentions 7, 83 and 156 Squadrons as nucleus of force in August 1942. Mentions some of their attacks and numbers of decorations awarded. Continues with mention of 35 Squadron Halifax and past history. Continues with other wartime exploits of squadron. Second cutting is a letter from Daily Telegraph complaining that the obituary of R V Jones did not mention aircraft of Bomber Command other than the Lancaster.
Creator
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M Usherwood
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1997-12-25
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-08
1940-11-20
1941-03-11
1942-05-30
1943-08
1946-07
1946-08
1943
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
France--Saint-Nazaire
Italy
Italy--Turin
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Mannheim
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
France--Le Havre
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Essen
Germany--Kiel
Netherlands
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Poland
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Flensburg
France--Brest
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
France--Lorient
France--Le Creusot
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Munich
France--Calais
France--Caen
France--Falaise
Netherlands--Walcheren
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Goch
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Potsdam
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
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The Daily Telegraph
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Format
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Two newspaper cuttings mounted on an album page
Identifier
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SBrennanJ1210913v20004-00020003
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
156 Squadron
35 Squadron
7 Squadron
83 Squadron
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
Conspicuous Gallantry Medal
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
Distinguished Service Order
Halifax
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Pathfinders
RAF Leeming
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Marham
Tirpitz
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/593/18468/MKempMWD2221885-160506-01.2.jpg
afef2aa6168c5ff1c01bb43452696947
Dublin Core
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Title
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Kemp, Maurice
Maurice William Denton Kemp
M W D Kemp
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Kemp, M
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Maurice Kemp (1925 - 2016, 2221885 Royal Air Force), a list of operations and photographs. He served as a mid upper gunner on Lancaster with 115 Squadron in 1945. He carried out 9 operations and then took part in operations Manna and Exodus.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by aurice Kemp and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
F/SGT MAURICE W D KEMP 2221885
115 SQUADRON WITCHFORD 15 2 45 TO 10 9 45
DAYLIGHT 288 Hrs 20 Mins NIGHT 26 Hrs 5Mins DAYLI GHT Ops 6 + I EARLY RETURN 36 Hrs 15 Mins DAYLIGHT 288 Hrs 20 Mins NIGHT 26 Hrs 5Mins
OPS
25 2 45 KARMEN 27 2 45 GELSENKIRCHEN 28 3 45 GELSKIRCHEN18 3 45
BRUCHSTRASSE 23 3 45 MUNSTER [EARLY RETURN] 27 3 45 HAMM
25 4 45 HELIGOLAND DAYTIME Hrs 35 Hrs 15 Mins
9 4 45 KEIL 13 4 45 KIEL 14 4 45 POTSDAM NIGHT TIME Hrs 19 Hrs 15 Mins
1 5 45 DROPPING SUPPLIES THE HAGUE 4 5 45 DROPPING SUPPLIES THE HAGUE
.
11 5 45 REPATRIATING PO Ws FROM BELGIUM 13 5 45 REPATRIATING PO Ws FROM
BELGIUM 14 5 45 REPATRIATING P O Ws FROM BELGIUM 16 5 45 REPATRIATING P O Ws
FROM BELGIUM18 5 45 REPATRIATING PO Ws FROM BELGUM 25 5 45 REPATRIATING P O Ws FROM
BELGUM 25 5 45 REPATRIATING P O Ws FROM BELGIUM
11 8 45 TO BARI ITALY 13 8 45 TROOPS BACK TO ENGLAND FROM BARI
24 8 45 TO BARI ITALY 26 8 45 TROOPS BACK TO ENGLAND FROM BARI
18 9 45 TO BARI ITALY 19 9 45 TROOPS BACK TO ENGLAND FROM BARI
8 11 45 TAKE TROOPS TO NAPLES ITALY 10 11 45
10 11 45 COLLECT TROOPS FROM NAPLES RETURN TO ENGLAND
8 11 45 FLIGHT TO NAPLES THE PILOT STOOD UP FROM THE PILOTS SEAT HIS INTERCOM CABLE ENGAUGED WITH THE BOMB DOOR LEVER OPENING THE DOORS RELEASING THE TROOPS PERSONAL LUGGAGE FROM THE STORAGE PANYARDS
AND WERE LOST OVER ENGLAND.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Maurice Kemp list of operations
Description
An account of the resource
Notes persona details and hours flown day and night on 115 Squadron at RAF Witchford. Lists operation to Kiel, Potsdam, Gelsenkirchen, Karmen, Bruchstrasse, Munster, Hamm and Heligoland. List sorties on Operation Manna at the Hague, Operation Exodus with flights to Belgium and Operation Dodge with flights to Bari and Naples. Concludes with comment that pilot inadvertently opened bomb doors and dropped troops personal luggage over England.
Creator
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M Kemp
Format
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One page printed document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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MKempMWD2221885-160506-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Potsdam
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Belgium
Netherlands
Netherlands--Hague
Italy
Italy--Bari
Italy--Naples
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Hamm (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-25
1945-02-27
1945-03-28
1945-03-18
1945-03-23
1945-03-27
1945-04-26
1945-04-09
1945-04-13
1945-04-14
1945-05-01
1945-05-04
1945-08-11
1945-08-13
1945-08-24
1945-08-26
1945-09-18
1945-09-19
1945-11-08
1945-11-10
1945-11-10
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
115 Squadron
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Witchford
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/478/31022/BBrookMBrookMv1.1.pdf
4cd3acd12de048eadb4febb65de3b363
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Brook, Maurice
Dr Maurice Brook
M Brook
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Brook, M
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Maurice Brook (1640523 Royal Air Force), his memoir and a squadron photograph. He flew operations as a navigator with 625 Squadron.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Maurice Brook and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[centred]By Request
A RETROSPECTIVE [/centred]
Bomber Command No. 625 Squadron
[picture of a Lancaster]
No. 625 Squadron
[picture of badge] Motto: “We avenge”. Badge: Within a circular chain of seven links a Lancaster rose. The Lancaster rose is indicative of the aircraft used by the squadron, and the seven links the number of personnel comprising an aircrew.
King George VI, March 1945. Authority:
No. 625 Squadron was formed at Kelstem, Lincolnshire, on 1st October 1943, as a heavy-bomber squadron equipped with Lancasters. It formed part of No. 1 Group and between 18/19th October 1944, and 25th April 1945, took part in many major raids on enemy targets. Following its final bombing mission it helped to drop food to the starving Dutch people, ferry British ex-POWs home from Belgium and British troops home from Italy.
Bomber Command WWII Bases:
Formed 1.10.43 as No. 625 (Bomber) Squadron at Kelstem. Main nucleus-posted in about middle of month-was “C” Flt of 100 Squadron.
Kelstem, Lincs: Oct 1943-Apr 1945
Scampton, Lincs: Apr 1945 onwards
Bomber Command WWII Aircraft:
Avro Lancaster B.I,B.III: Oct 1943 onwards
Code Letters:
“CF”
[centred] Maurice Brook February 2011 [/centred]
[page break]
For years I resisted family requests to talk about my experiences as a navigator in Bomber Command. Apart from a natural reticence of not wanting to “shoot a line”, to use RAF slang, I knew that memory alone could mislead, as proved to be the case. More important was a selfish concern that real but unpleasant and perhaps unmanageable memories would emerge. Virtually daily, in quite[sic] moments, I have brief flashbacks. Conventional wisdom is that this is evidence of post traumatic stress disorder. My argument, which disconcerted a conference of psychiatrists, is that it is a biological mechanism for coping and providing there is no evidence that it interferes with normal functioning there is no need for treatment, which might undermine effective coping.
Last year, I was told that, “I owed it to the grandchildren at least, to make them aware of what an earlier generation had done in extreme youth. Ever son-in-law, Clive, remembered a wish I had once casually expressed for a final visit to Lincolnshire, a Lancaster bomber and perhaps visit the hotel where the Dambusters were housed. Out of the blue, he telephone last Autumn to say he had booked a VIP day in April at East Kirby airfield. There, among other things, there would be a ride in a Lancaster on the ground. The previous night was to be spent at Woodhall Spa, the very hotel used by the Dambusters. With that breathtaking announcement made, in his usual persuasive way, he suggested that as a quid pro quo I might respond to the requests to write about my experiences.
My navigator’s log book was stolen when we moved house from Effingham and memory can be false after over 60 years. To be as accurate as possible, I got my service record from the RAF and paid a researcher to cull the squadron records in the National Archives. I had tried to do this some years ago, but found the microfiches almost unreadable. The experienced researcher did a reasonable job, but may have missed some operations. To my surprise, it proved the unreliability of memory. I would have sworn I joined 625 squadron in the winter of 1944, but the record shows I did not do so until early March 1945. What I recollected as months was only weeks, which itself says something about the impact on me of the experience.
So, as they say, “to begin at the beginning”.
[centred] 1939 – 1941 [/centred]
I was on school holiday when my mother and I listened to Neville Chamberlain’s broadcast, September 3rd 1939, telling us we were at war with Germany. A neighbour came in, whose husband, like my father, had been permanently damaged by service in the first world war, which had ended only some 20 years earlier. I remember her saying to my mother, “at least your lad is too young to have a go.”
At school there was an awareness of the threat to freedom from fascism. We had Hitler’s Mein Kampf and Mussolini’s biography in the school library and were urged to read them. One master was a Jewish refugee who had escaped with his young daughter in 1938. Some of the boys had been on a school trip to Germany in 1938 and returned with Nazi
[page break]
memorabilia given to them by members of the Hitler Youth. Throughout 1938 preparations for defence were apparent, such as air raid shelters being built on the school playing fields, gas masks being issued and air raid practices.
I was able, with bicycle, to join the Air Raid Precautions Service as a messenger boy. This involved spending nights in the control centre at the local council offices, waiting to be sent with messages if telephones were put out of action. Not much happened and my usual duty was to be sent out, in the blackout, to buy fish and chips. One night, in early 1940, there was a raid on Leeds as I war returning with fish and chips. There was a drone of engines, searchlights and then anti-aircraft guns opened up. A piece of shrapnel hit my steel helmet, but somehow cut my lip. That was my initiation which, of course, gave me status in the control centre as their first real casualty. I told my parents that I had, “bumped into a wall in the blackout” and was told to be more careful.
During 1940, the school summer holiday was cancelled and the staff arranged a special programme: learning to play bridge, producing a play, music appreciation, outdoor games etc. One highlight was a demonstration of unarmed combat by the headmaster with the school caretaker. The Home Guard was being formed, initially called the Local Defence Volunteers. Our headmaster was the captain and the caretaker was the senior warrant officer. A squadron of The Air Training Corps was also formed, with the headmaster as CO and the caretaker as warrant officer. We were taught basic navigation, mathematics, aircraft recognition, morse code, drill etc. We had a week at Holme on Spalding Moor, then a base for Hampden bombers. We saw them take off after dark one night on a leaflet raid. Our first flight was on an Avro Anson and I was airsick. I was never airsick again until May 1945. Fooling about with my school-friend Walter Murton, I jumped through an open window in the NAAFI but didn’t duck enough and cut my head on the upper frame. The MO stitched it up and I was swathed in a turban of bandages, which gave rise to all kinds of speculation when we were back at school. Unfortunately, it put Muriel, who was in the same class, off for a time.
Dunkirk brought home to us all how desperate the situation was. We had a military hospital not far away and the head used to arrange for groups of wounded soldiers to come to the school and be given tea by the girls. We had a young staff who were beginning to leave, to go into the army or air force. They were being replaced by men from retirement and young women. Older brothers were already involved, one as an air gunner, whose schoolboy brother brought a clip of live machine gun ammunition into school and no one turned a hair. The brother of one of my primary school teachers was a Halifax pilot and cycling home from school I sometimes saw his plane circling over my home village of Outwood before going off on a raid. He was lost after a few operations. The headmaster had some of the older boys to his home at weekends where we were taught and practised rifle shooting. We also spent hours cleaning grease from case loads of old American rifles and making sure they were in working order. All this activity was a practical response to Churchill’s call, “to fight on the beaches and the landing grounds, etc., - we will never surrender.” Invasion really seemed imminent and we were preparing for it.
I had become a sergeant in the Air Training Corps and the RAF were offering university bursaries for suitable candidates volunteering for aircrew. The minimum age was 17 ½ , which I was in October 1941. My father agreed, reluctantly, to sign the papers and I made
[page break]
an advance application. This was accepted, after a long medical and intelligence test, in July 1942, at a centre in Viceroy Court outside Birmingham. I was then sworn in as a member of the RAF Volunteer Reserve, becoming the property of the RAF.
CAMBRIDGE
The RAF deal was that their bursary covered attendance at a university first year engineering course, and completing the initial aircrew cadet training at the RAF proper, by simultaneously being a member of the university air squadron. Long vacations were suspended during the war, so the normal degree was covered in two years. The first year equivalent was from October to March.
In October 1942, almost 18 years old, I arrived at Christ’s College. Walter Murton, accepted under the same scheme, went to Corpus Christi. I had two rooms with coal fires. A ‘scout’, old enough to be my father, cleaned, made the fires, got the coal in etc. One of the many new and not entirely comfortable experiences. Wearing of academic gowns was compulsory for undergraduates and you had to be back in college by 10-30pm or the gate was locked on you. The lecturers were first class and eminent in their fields. We did aeronautical engineering, applied mathematics, some meteorology, physics and electronics. Practicals were done in the Cavendish laboratories. To be in these famous labs and lecture theatres was something to remember. Other aspects of university life were enjoyed. I joined the Harriers and went running every Wednesday afternoon, likewise rowing, another new experience. Sunday evenings were often spent at the University church listening to first class speakers. There were many free lectures in the evening by well known politicians of the time, often firebrands: Krishna Menon I remember: Lord Gort, ex-governor of Gibraltar talked about his angel and god experience when governor of the beleaguered Rock, and communist Harry Pollitt. Sundays, arranged by the Communist Society, I spent with many other students on a bench at the Eye factory mindlessly stamping out rivets or washers to aid the war effort. It was a useful insight into the monotony of unskilled factory work.
The university air squadron was commanded by the headmaster of the Leys public school, but the staff were all RAF. We wore RAF uniform with a University Air Squadron shoulder badge and a white flash in our caps. The training was intensive. The New Zealander drill sergeant told us that when he was posted to the CUAS the CO said he was to remember that, “these cadets are the sons of gentlemen and are to be treated as such”. An interesting insight into prevailing snobbery. Amusing and tedious but it had a purpose. The CO’s comment I suppose had some substance in that period. We had several titled members, some sons of very senior RAF officers and army generals, the son of the then chairman of ICI. Needless to say, the effect on this New Zealander (colonial was we all then saw him) was that he made life really tough for us. We became good at drill and his inspections made sure we were super smart with polished buttons etc. Morse signalling was practised until it was second nature and we learned to take down messages with interference fed into the system. Aircraft recognition was practised by a brief flashes on the screen. In time we got to be over 90% accurate. More navigation teaching and an introduction to astronomy by learning the main
[page break]
constellations and important stars and planets. With Britain blacked out star gazing was easier than it is now. Social aspects were not neglected. Formal mess dinners were held with speeches and silly games afterwards and etiquette rules taught about behaviour in the officer’s mess - never go in your greatcoat, or wear your hat or fail to speak to the CO if he is in there, how to pass the port and so on. The whole ethos was that we were to show that we were demonstrably better than the normal RAF intake and I suppose it rubbed off in encouraging higher achievement.
After university and air squadron exams most of us had about two weeks at an aircrew reception centre, in commandeered luxury flats at St. John’s Wood eating in the zoo restaurant. From the RAF records I have obtained, I see my character was then rated as “very good” and “ recommended for a commission”. You were never told about your appraisals in those days. Time was taken up by more medicals in the pavilion at Lord’d: tests for night vision and ability to cope with spin. We did daily PT in the open under the shadow of anti-aircraft guns in Regent’s Park. One of the group in my ex-luxury room with eight airmen was a dedicated member of The Oxford Movement, who rose early every morning to say his prayers, but he was well tolerated and no one made fun of him.
From St. John’s Wood it was back to Cambridge as proper RAF airmen. This time living in Selwyn College, part of which had been commandeered. We were there about a month and given Tiger Moth training at Marshall’s field outside Cambridge, before being posted to Heaton Park Manchester, where I was billeted in the spare room of a couple in Crumpsall. He was an ambulance driver in Manchester and had already experienced raids. Other members of the family lived nearby and I soon learned that one son was a Japanese prisoner. I walked each day to Heaton Park for breakfast and all other meals. Apart from frequent daily inspections the days were taken up with useless tasks to keep us occupied as we were there awaiting a troopship sailing to Canada.
CANADA
Late autumn, 1943, hundreds of us were gathered in a large hangar at Heaton Park, given ration packs and marched to board a train, which travelled through the night reaching what some recognised as Glasgow docks the next morning. There we were marched onto a liner (either the Andes or the Aquitania) converted into a troopship. Every inch below decks was occupied with bunks or hammocks. we were given timed tickets for one meal only a day and practised lifeboat drill several times. Late afternoon we slid out of Glasgow and started the lone crossing relying on speed and zig-zagging to escape U-boats. Hygiene was primitive. Showers were just about possible , using special soap for salt water, but it wasn’t advisable in case of attack. Each day, the deck mounted gun was used in target practice. I think the journey must have been about three weeks. One dawn, we saw the impressive Statue of Liberty as we entered New York Harbour. The water was covered in floating debris. Not a pretty sight, but a relief to be there..
Train from New York to Monckton, New Brunswick, another aircrew reception centre. I
[page break]
was there long enough to be accepted into the hospital laboratory as an assistant. That made the days pass, but got me on a disciplinary charge for missing a parade. This remains on my record. From Monckton to London Ontario and the air navigation school, using Avro Ansons and civilian pilots. For the first time, navigation theory was being put into practice. Alongside daily lectures and practicals we flew on given routes around the Great Lakes at night, using ground observation (no blackout there) and code flashing beacons strategically placed. Some astro-navigation was involved, but no electronic aids. The pilots presumably always knew where they were, but they always obeyed trainee navigator instructions. More than once, planes were flown across Lake Erie to land short of fuel many miles from London. I avoided such embarrassment, but learned what it was like to be uncertain of your position and yet get yourself out of the difficulty.
[photograph]
Trainee Navigators Avro Anson. London, Ontario.
Temperatures at ground level of minus 20F were not uncommon as was regular snow, but flying was never suspended. With no blackout and abundant rich food, the contrast with the Britain we had left was marked. The other big impression was how big everything seemed to be, railway trains, cars, buses, wide roads and lots of space everywhere. I wrote to Muriel practically every dyad she did likewise. There was a special form we had to use that was transmitted electronically: an aerogram, I think. You wrote in black pen and the recipient received a photo-reproduction. The process was surprisingly quick, but you had to be careful what was said because they were all censored. The cadets on the course were from all backgrounds. An ex-Newcastle policeman and a miner, both in their thirties and with families. They had reserved occupations which exempted them from normal military service, but volunteering for aircrew always took priority. Also, there were virtual schoolboys like me; a couple of air gunners who had re-mustered after operational experience and a young East End Jew boy with a scar on his face from an air raid in which his girl friend had been killed in his arms. The instructors were Royal Canadian Air Force,
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mainly peacetime teachers, one of whom I met later in the UK at Operational Training Unit preparing to go on operations as navigator.
At the end of February 1944, I graduated from Navigation School and was commissioned as a pilot officer in The Royal Canadian Air Force, aged 19. A free month followed, hitch hiking in the USA prior to reaching Halifax, New Brunswick, to join the designated return troopship (Andes or Aquitania). The only difference in conditions on the return trip was that officers were separated from the sergeants.
[photograph of Pilot Officer Brook in March 1944]
Newly Commissioned
[centred] HOME AGAIN [/centred]
We docked in Liverpool to a quayside military band, before taking a special train to Harrogate, where the RAF had taken most of the major hotels for aircrew reception. It was a bus ride from home and I took advantage whenever I could. With a two day pass I could get to see Muriel wherever she was stationed in the army. I got myself a temporary job in the adjutant’s office censoring mail, primarily so I had access to the blank passes and could write and stamp my own.
Posting to an Advance Flying Unit at Millom in Cumberland followed. Here, navigating in blackout conditions on Avro Ansons without radar aid was the norm, having respect for the mountainous terrain in the area. The given route and height left little room for error. Crashes did occur as a harsh penalty for error. We were taken to swimming baths where we had to wear dark glasses, jump fully clothed, wearing Mae Wests (lifejacket) from the top diving step into the pool, locate a dinghy that was upside down, clamber in then blow a
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whistle to attract other crew already in the water. It was cold, unpleasant, physically draining but obviously potentially a survival skill.
By August I was considered proficient and posted to an operational training unit (OUT) at Husband’s Bosworth, a wartime airfield in Leicestershire.
[centred] OPERATIONAL TRAINING [/centred]
All new arrivals for the OUT course spent the second evening together in a large mess room. We were to sort ourselves out into crews for Wellington bombers. Being cautious and diffident, I did nothing at first but watched the scene with a mixture of amusement and cynicism. Within the first hour a dapper, mature, commissioned bomb aimer (itself unusual), came to me. He said he was Jim, had found a pilot and wanted a navigator, was I interested? So I said yes and joined the pilot (also commissioned) who was not much older than me but I judged him as less mature, but I was committed. Two sergeant air gunners asked to join us and we learned they were the sole survivors from a crash in training. The rear gunner was 18 but the mid-upper was 35, like Jim. Jim has chosen to be a bomb aimer because the statistics showed they had a high casualty rate, like rear gunners, and he had an unhappy marriage and wanted out with some glory! Later, he met a future wife and changed his views. Ron, a bright yellow wireless operator asked if he could fill the vacancy he recognised. He was welcomed as being very experienced, after being a ground wireless operator in West Africa. His colour was a side effect of the anti-malarial treatment used at that time and it took years to fade.
The next day, training started on Wellingtons and I had an introduction to Gee, a navigation aid that worked by receiving oscilloscope signals from widely dispersed transmitters. By plotting the readings on special maps, a good fix of ground position was possible until, as I soon learned, German counter measures could confuse signals. OTU. Included practice parachute jumps from a tower, lectures on how to contact the underground, how to behave as a prisoner of war and basic survival techniques. We also, in turn, observed other crew members in a tank as the oxygen level was reduced. They showed inability to do simple sums or drawings, yet were supremely confident they were doing well. This taught us the need always to use oxygen about 10,000 feet. It was my job to instruct the crew, “oxygen on.”
As a crew we had to practise bombing on a range almost daily, machine gunning a towed target drogue and fighter affiliation exercises in which the object was to evade a theoretically attacking fighter. Inquests after exercise identified errors. Most al all, we had a series of night raids, under code numbers, to carry out. These specified routes with many turns at sharp angled where sloppy timing of the turn would put you outside the line of the next course to follow. In a real raid this would put you outside the mainstream and therefore increase vulnerability. We were to follow the given routes and return to base exactly on the estimated time of return. Some of these routes took us briefly to enemy territory, which exposed us to searchlight and anti-aircraft activity and kept the gunners alert to night fighters. Sometimes we dropped ‘window’, foil strips, to confound radar. Aircraft were occasionally lost to enemy activity. It was this OTU period that must have created my false impression of when I started operations proper, as the exercises were very realistic.
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Whenever I could get away I went to where Muriel was stationed, meeting her as she came off duty or saying goodbye as she went on duty. The bridge over the Dee, at Chester, was one place, near Western Command Headquarters. Goodge Street station was another haunt, when Muriel was with General Eisenhower’s signals centre located in tunnels underneath the platforms. There was a café near Goodge Street where we sometimes had the luxury of a hot orange drink that was off the ration.
February 1944
[photograph of Maurice Brook with Muriel]
Our young pilot was not good at putting the crew at ease, because his own obvious tensions were transmitted by his tone of voice and forgetfulness. For example, on take off he left his oxygen mask microphone switched on and dangling, so that the engine roar was amplified and transmitted to the whole crew, making it impossible for anyone to pass a message until we were well airborne and passed the critical danger period. He was told about it, but consistently forgot under pressure. On our last training flight an instructor flew with us to assess the crew. It was a filthy night, with thunder and lightning and very strong winds. At one stage, with a headwind, I thought I was in error. My calculation of ground covered suggested we had hardly moved and we seemed to be stationary over Anglesey. The wireless operator received a diversion instruction, away from our weather-closed airfield in Lincolnshire to one in the west country. I calculated a new course and time of arrival at a specified airspeed and we got over the right spot, though the weather was still bad. It then became clear that our pilot was so stressed he could not go through the landing drill and he began to prepare us to bail out. At that point the instructor took over as captain and managed to land just before the fuel ran out.
We returned to Husband’s Bosworth the next day and were sent on a week’s leave prior to being posted to a four engine conversion unit. On return, Jim and I quickly found that we shared serious reservations about our pilot. The gunners, already extra twitchy because of their accident history, and the wireless operator told us they were unhappy and expected the officers in the crew to do something about it. Jim and I went to see the adjutant to say that as a crew we were unwilling to continue flying with this particular pilot. It was a delicate
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task because, although all aircrew were volunteers, refusal to fly was treated as ‘lack of moral fibre’. Reduction in rank and disgrace followed. However, the adjutant surprised and relieved us by saying, “you will be posted as planned but your pilot will remain behind for further training.” “A new pilot will be waiting for you at the conversion unit”.
[centred] Four Engine Heavy Conversion Unit [/centred]
It would have been around October, when we arrived at Sturgate, a base near Scunthorpe, for training on Halifax, four engine bombers. We were introduced to Dave Lennox to be our new pilot and captain. Already a flight lieutenant with many hours of instructor service in Canada, he had joined a Scottish regiment in 1938, risen to regimental sergeant major, been to France and back through Dunkirk. Then he had applied to re-muster as aircrew and trained as a pilot. We also acquired a second pilot as flight engineer, making a full crew of seven.
From our first practice flight, Dave established his authority and inspired confidence in us all. He was calm, ensured we only used the intercom for messages not chatter, repeated my instructions and followed them exactly. Once, on take off just before becoming airborne, he said quite calmly, “We have burst a tyre”. We completed the exercise for the day and as we prepared to land he said, “take up crash positions, I am going to try to put the burst tyre on the grass and the other on the runway, but we might tilt over.” He landed smoothly and stayed upright. What a relief and what a further confidence boost for the crew.
The weather was freezing and the Nissen hut in which we were housed had no fuel. The first night, after dark, a group of us went to the fuel compound, which had a high wire fence with barbed wire. By standing on the shoulders of a big chap on the ground, throwing a greatcoat over the wire, I (being relatively light) was able to get over the top, hang down and then drop. A bucket came over with a rope attached which I filled and returned three or four times. Finally I did a monkey crawl up the tope and was pulled up and over. The whole process took less than 15 minutes and was over before the patrolling guards came round again.
Then, a strange thing happened. I was posted to Hereford to No 1 Aircrew Officers School. I found Walter Murton also had been posted there from his further pilot training. We were given intensive military training by the RAF Regiment and taught to use a variety of weapons, unarmed combat, grenade throwing, stalking a sentry. We had to undergo assault course training over a wall, under wire, through water, jump off the back of a moving lorry in the dark somewhere in Wales and make our way back to the unit. The only explanation we were given for this bizarre treatment was that it was necessary to train a number of aircrew officers so they could lead the defence if an airfield was attacked. The school is now the base for the SAS. I failed to finish the course because I ended in hospital, paralysed, suffering from exposure. A week in hospital with daily physiotherapy put me right, though I had to endure daily visits from the local vicar, who seemed to have got the idea I must have come down in the sea! However, it got me away and back to the proper air force. When Walter returned he was trained as a glider pilot for the Rhine crossing where he would have had to lead his infantry passengers after they landed.
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[centred] 625 Squadron and Operations [/centred]
The preliminaries
Later than I originally thought, possibly for the reason I explained earlier, the crew were taken on March 2nd 1945 to Kelstern, a wartime airfield in the Lincolnshire Wolds, near Louth. We were met by the squadron commander, who outlined a familiarisation on Lancasters before we would be ready for operations. We three officers shared a small room in a Nissen hut, the sergeants had beds in a barrack room for about 20, heated by a central coke stove. Though nothing was said, we were all aware that we were probably occupying the places of missing aircrew as the squadron commander said nothing about crews that had recently left because they had completed their tours (30 operations). For the sergeants, I felt sympathy. Sometimes, usually during a morning, the belongings of one or more residents from their hut would be removed, because they had not returned the night before. “Gone for a Burton” was the slang expression. This was a derivation of, ‘he went for a beer and hasn’t come back’. A day later, the beds would be re-occupied by newcomers. Thinking back, we all seemed to avoid developing friendships with members of other crews, an understandable defence mechanism. Unlike an army unit, there was no feeling of dependence on and mutual responsibility for one another. The reliance and complete trust was confined to members of each individual crew.
We were introduced to our Lancaster. V for Victor but also V for victory, just returned to service after an overhaul. It had already a distinguished survival record, with over two tours to its record. A “lucky plane” was our assessment, which did great things for morale, even before we got inside. Inside, it was compact, with just enough room for each function. Whereas the Halifax seemed like a spacious airliner, the Lancaster felt like a proper war-plane.
Our first Lancaster. V – Victor [photograph of the Lancaster]
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My ‘office’ was next to the wireless operator and only a step away from the astro-dome. I encountered two new navigation aids. The first was an air position indicator (API). Once set with the latitude and longitude of a start point, it automatically integrated every subsequent movement of the aircraft in direction and speed. This gave a continuous reading of exactly where the aircraft was above the ground, assuming no wind. Of course, there always was wind, otherwise a navigator would have been redundant. The API improved precision, compared with the previous method of noting changing direction, airspeeds and duration of each of them, then doing a series of time consuming mathematical calculations. A second, new navigation aid was called H2S. I had a screen on which a rotating beam showed illuminated ground objects, detected by a revolving aerial under the aircraft that transmitted an electronic beam to earth and picked up the reflections. Towns, clusters of buildings, lakes etc., showed up on the screen as glowing smudges. We had special radar maps that more or less reproduced what the ground objects would look like on the screen.
We were photographed as a crew, for the squadron record.
Don Abbott – flt. Engineer Wally Birkey – rear gunner Ron Wilsdon – wireless op. Ken Cowley – upper gunner Jim Harbord – bomb aimer Dave Lennox – captain Maurice Brook – navigator
[photograph of the crew]
We had to avoid shaving for five days and then were individually photographed in shabby civilian clothing. We were given the prints to carry so that if we were being helped by the underground they could use them to make false permits as foreign workers.
Daily flights took place to become familiar with the aircraft. Dave practised aerobatics and evasive action and said Victor handled like a fighter. We had bombing practice near Gibraltar Point. The gunners had target practice and I had to master the new electronic aid and use of the API. According to the records from the National Archives, we were on the squadron for two weeks before our first operation. My recollection was of a much shorter period. Moreover, I recollect Stettin, Essen, Frieburg and Munich as operations. None of these appear in the archive record, so I could be wrong.
I seem to have spent a long time on the preliminaries in this account. I suspect it has been subconscious behaviour to delay coming to terms with the real thing, which I must now do using the archive record only.
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The real thing.
One would think that our first operation would be one to remember, yet I have no memory whatever. On March 15th., the record shows we attacked Misberg, near Hanover. We took off at 17-53 and landed back at 01-09. Surprisingly, those 7 hours are a memory blank.
There was a routine on an operational station. In the morning a tannoy (loudspeaker) message “all operational aircrew to remain on base”’ meant operations were likely but not certain. The officers mess had a small blackboard headed, ‘Battle Order’. If an operation was confirmed, the squadron commander chalked the names of the captains and navigators on this board and a likely time of briefing. By then, ground crews would be moving trolly loads of bombs to each aircraft and bowsers would be delivering fuel. Jim used to go out to check the ‘bombing up’ and the gunners checked or preferably loaded their own ammunition belts. There would be much speculation about the target as there was a ratio between bomb load and fuel load that helped in guessing the likely distance. I used to go to the intelligence room or the navigation room to collect up to date maps and note reported changes in enemy anti-aircraft and fighter placements.
The Tannoy would indicate the briefing time and crews would amble along to the crew room and change into flying kit. Silk underwear and under gloves, then woollen, then battle dress, a Sith & Wesson 48 and ammunition, Mae West (lifejacket) and parachute harness. During this process, the ample toilets were much used. Parachutes were collected, each directly from the WAAF who had packed it, also a small plastic box of escape kit. This contained forged money, maps printed on thin fabric capable of also being used to strain water, water sterilising tablets, a simple fishing line and some glucose tablets. We also each got a thermos flask of cocoa.
As you entered the briefing room, you read over the door “Press on Regardless”. In the briefing room, each crew sat at a trestle table facing a raised platform A curtain covered the end wall. In would come the station commander and acolytes. The curtain was dawn aside revealing the target and the designated routes in and out. These were never direct, especially inward, with frequent marked changes of direction. The meteorology officer would brief on weather en-route and on return. Bombing leader explained the bomb loads, bombing heights and the target markers (coloured flares) to be dropped by pathfinder force. The C.O. explained the reasons for its target selection and the total number of aircraft taking part in the mission. This was usually several hundred. After questions, all left except the navigators. We made careful notes of the turning points and target times. We were also taken to our dispersal sites in a blacked out bus driven by a WAAF. The engines were usually already running. I would greet the ground crew and clamber aboard.
Once I had reported my arrival Dave would taxi out. As we rolled along the perimeter track, I would pin down my charts, check the API and that the altimeter was correctly set, prepare the first log entry which would read “airborne”. By then we would be at the runway. An airman would check the tyres and give a thumbs up to Dave. Then from a caravan at the other end of the runway a green Aldis lamp would flash. There was complete radio silence and pre-arranged drill had to be followed. The engine would roar with the brakes still on,
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then as the aircraft strained, the brakes were released and we began to roll, gathering speed. Dave would call, “full power” as he with the engineer pushed the throttles forward and held them there. Hurtling down a runway, sitting on tons of high explosive, was always a period of tension. The aircraft seemed to stick to the ground until, slowly, it became unstuck. A steep climb began and the undercarriage was retracted. We were on our way. I had a bit of a ritual in logging the exact time in minutes and seconds that we left the ground.
Each aircraft took off as it was ready. Once airborne we had time to kill. I usually gave dAve a course that took us over my home territory and then turned him to meet our first departure point on the given time. Frequently, the UK legs were Reading then Beach Head, after which the route varied according to the briefing instructions. Residents of Reading would have endured the noise of several hundred aircraft as they formed the stream going south. I could get accurate Gee fixes of ground position and Jim would usually confirm the time of crossing each coast, from which, using the API, I would calculate my first wind speed and direction. This was used to calculate the compass course for the next leg. As we reached 10,000 feet I would check that oxygen was on for each of the crew. Our operational height was usually between 10 and 15 thousand feet.
March 16th., we were briefed for a major raid on Nurenberg involving 277 aircraft. This I do remember. Gee signals were soon being jammed and fake signals were appearing, so I was glad to use H2S, difficult though it was to link the responses on the screen to the charts in front of me. There were many changes of direction towards the target. Precise timing of a turn was essential to remain within the stream. For example, on an accurate turn, 30 seconds wrong could put the aircraft outside the stream when on the new course and therefore vulnerable. We had a drill. I would warn Dave, “prepare to change course to….” and I would give a compass heading. He would acknowledge and repeat the given heading. As the time to turn approached, I would do a verbal count down ending in “now’ and there would be be an instantaneous change of direction. Frequently, the aircraft would vibrate as though running over cobbles. This cheered the crew because it was due to the slipstream of another aircraft and meant that we were still in the mainstream. Only later, on a daylight mission did we realise how close you had to be to get this effect! Ron had a long trailing aerial that he reeled out below the aircraft and this was regularly chopped off by the propellers of following planes. As we proceeded to the target, Jim and others kept reporting fires on the ground. Nearer the target, Jim took over guidance leading to the bombing run. After take off, this was the next certain period of extreme tension. For several minutes, Dave would have to fly level and respond to, “left left, right right, steady, steady” as Jim lined up his bombsight on the target markers laid by pathfinders. I would follow on the H2S, with my thumb on a bomb release button which I could use, if Jim became unable. All the while, we would rock from time to time from nearby anti-aircraft bursts and occasionally a searchlight would light up the cabin, but thankfully pass over without locking on. “Bombs gone” from Jim would be accompanied by an upward leap as the aircraft suddenly became lighter. “Steady, steady,” would be Jim’s calm injunction for several seconds more until the camera had operated, recording our ground bursts. These were analysed on return for accuracy. “Camera off” would be Dave’s signal to open throttles and turn on the course I had given him to pre-set on the compass before starting the bombing run. The long return then began with Dave usually checking that the gunners were awake and alert. We had taken off at 17-45 and landed back at 02-05 and bombed from 16500 feet. Climbing out after landing, as the engines stopped, the overwhelming impression was of a
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peaceful silence and the smell of clean air. A quick briefing of the ground crew about any mechanical problems and into the crew bus and to the de-briefing room. Here, a WAAF intelligence officer sat behind a table and we sat facing her. We had been given a mug of cocoa laced with rum by the chaplain, who had usually had one for himself each time. On the wall was a large table listing crews, take off time, estimated time of return and comments. You noted the ones marked overdue, sometimes crashed, ditched or missing. 3 of the 26 planes dispatched had not returned. The weather observations I had to make en route were reported. Jim gave his report of target marking, etc. When the number of fires was reported, as though the enemy had marked the route, we were told these would be aircraft burning on the ground. These words had schilling effect, reinforced by the news that soon emerged that 24 (8.6%) of the total force of 277 had been lost, an unsustainable rate of attrition. Bacon, eggs, sausage, beans in quantity and it tasted good. Back to the hut and dog tired we were soon asleep.
March 18th., Hanau was the target, taking of 39 minutes after midnight and landing back at 07-47, bombing at 04-35 from the relatively low height of 10,300 feet. It was a lively trip, with several night fighter warnings that caused stomach churning, as Dave took violent ‘corkscrewing’ evasive action. Two members of another crew returned wounded, but safely.
There was a brief closure for very bad weather, then on March 22nd we were off to Bruchstrasse, for a relatively uneventful trip of 6 hours, from 01-08 to 07-05, bombing at 04-19 from 17,000 feet.
The next day we were briefed for a specific target in Bremen : Bremen railway bridge the record says. I thought it was Bremen docks, but I suppose they could be the same. Less than 5 hours, up at 19-47 and down just after midnight, after bombing at 10-05 from 16500 feet. The camera recorded clear direct hits right on target, which reflected well on the crew and especially Dave and Jim.
Target photograph - Bremen - 23 March 1945
[photograph]
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By now, I think as a crew we had acquired some recognition within the squadron and we were selected to radio back to base the wind speeds and directions I was using. Aircraft from other squadrons were similarly detailed. The responses were collated at base and an advisory wind radioed to the mainforce to use or not, as each navigator decided.
Two days after Bremen, we did our first daylight operation. On March 25th Hanover was the target. We left at 06-37 reached target at 09-47 and were back for lunch by 12-26. In daylight on a perfect sunny day of blue skies, we realised how close you had to be to the aircraft in front to feel the slipstream effect. It was a sobering thought. As we left Hanover I looked back from the astro-dome to see a column of dense black smoke rising to nearly our bombing height of 17000 feet. I remember feeling a surge of sympathy for the burgers on that Sunday morning, coupled with the thought that there would have been plenty of warning to give them time to reach shelters.
On March 31st, another clear Spring day, a major daylight operation was directed at long-suffering Hamburg. The bomber stream was accompanied by American Mustang and Lightening fighters, but we soon encountered anti-aircraft fire. The gunners reported an aircraft to our starboard on fire. I looked out of the astro-dome and saw it flying level with thick black smoke pouring out. Then it slowly, very slowly, began a dive. We were all hoping to see parachutes. Eventually, three bundles fell out, all on fire. No parachutes opened. Then it was back to work. There was less dog-legging on the escorted raid, so we were up at 06-35 and back by 11-41, reaching the target at 08-52 from 17,000 feet.
Enthusiasm for escorted daylight raids seemed to be growing in the command, as April 3rd was the day for another. This time to army barracks at Nordhausen, a very specific target which we were to identify ourselves and not rely on pathfinder force. We were up at 13-28 and reached the target successfully at about 16-15. It was cloudy as Jim started the bombing run and just as he was approaching the target it was covered by cloud. Jim, properly and unusually, aborted the run. Anti-aircraft response was desultory and Dave decided to go round again for another try, whilst I would track on H2S ready to act if cloud remained. Cloud remained. I had a good image outlining the barracks and pressed the bomb release. Photographic reconnaissance later that day showed successful destruction.
Two days later, April 5th, we were transferred to Scampton, near Lincoln. This was a permanent RAF base and had been home of 617 squadron, the Dambusters. The officers mess had portraits on the walls of VC’s won from Scampton. Living was more comfortable than Nissen huts and some of us had long serving civilian batmen.
April 9th was memorable and provides one of my regular flashbacks. We were detailed to lay mines in Kiel harbour. Taking off at 18-15, we flew with the mainstream for most of the route, until it turned south to the main target and we carried on alone to Kiel. My job was to navigate to a promontory to the north of the harbour, where Jim would take over visually. This was successfully achieved, and we started the pre-determined time and distance run, along which Jim dropped mines from 14,000 feet at 22-46. Needless to say, as a lone aircraft we had the full attention of both ship and shore batteries, but the drops were made and Dave accelerated on the course I had given him in advance.
Soon afterwards the flight engineer reported an engine on fire. It was quickly extinguished
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and ‘feathered,’ ie. stopped with the propellers fixed in position. It was not long before there was trouble with another engine, fortunately on the opposite side from the first failure, which also had to be feathered. It had probably been damaged by shrapnel from a near miss. For me, the consequence was loss of all electronic aids, as these engines had generated the electric current. I knew that Dave’s course needed alteration, but how? My first priority was to be sure we avoided the fortified islands of the Heligoland Bight, so I gave Dave an alteration that I guessed would keep us over the sea, well to the North. The next problem was how to get back, bearing in mind that we were slowly losing height and were uncertain of what might next go wrong. Ron got radio fixes on European radio stations, the location of which he knew, but these were not very useful. Bearings on the BBC, which would have been ideal, were impossible because those transmissions were revolved continuously and rapidly around different transmitters, precisely to prevent them being used as direction finders. It was cloudy, but breaks appeared. From time to time I could locate the Pole star, so I got out my sextant and got Ron to note the precise time I took a shot on it. Using tables, which I carried, I could work out our latitude from the sextant reading and the time it was made, measured to the second. I made an estimate of the wind from the last determination made outside Kiel and did a judgement modification for the lower height and changing air pressure from which I gave Dave a new course, behaving verbally as though I knew exactly what I was doing.
My reasoning was that if I kept him on the right latitude we would reach the English coast where there were two emergency airfields: Manston in Kent and Woodbridge in East Anglia. If we came down in the sea, Ron would have time to radio base with our course and latitude, that would help air sea rescue. It was moonlight and as luck would have it we reached the coast. Jim soon recognised where we were, virtually on course for Lincoln! We landed at 02-00 and the plane was taken out of service.
No time for worrying about what might have been. The next night we were briefed to attack an oilfield in Czechoslovakia at Plauen. A long. long, way, that was met with murmurs of disbelief when the curtain was drawn aside at briefing. It was a wet night and a visiting orchestra had come to give a concert in one of the hangars. They came to the take off point to wave us off at 18-27. We reached the target, not without incident, and bombed nearly five hours later, at 23-12 from 17500 feet A large fire was raging as we left. I never looked out but the cabin was illuminated and the gunners expressed their awe. It was nearly four hours later, at 03-02 when we landed As we turned off the runway, the engines stopped with all the fuel gone. One aircraft failed altogether en route, one was missing for several days but eventually turned up, having had a forced landing in our zone of Europe after running out of fuel.
Four days later, we had caught up on sleep and had Potsdam as the target, which was much the same as Berlin for opposition. Assuming that Gee would be heavily jammed, I studied the H2S charts and especially the shapes of numerous lakes in the are, [sic] to improve the chances of identifying what I would see on the screen. This also was a long trip. Take off was 18-08 and the heavily defended target was bombed over four hours later at 22-58 from a height of 19,500 feet. This highest operation we did was no doubt intended to make it more difficult for anti-aircraft gunners. In another four hours plus we were back, at 03-20, This was our last offensive operation.
A daylight raid on Berchtesgaden, Hitlers mountain retreat, was next but our crew was
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withdrawn. It was soon after dawn, as we stayed in the crew room waiting for the others to return we saw the trail of a V2 rocket that had been fired. It was an awesome sight and a reminder of the dangers still posed to London and our Southern cities.
On one operation, I can’t recall which, we were asked to take a major from the Royal Artillery responsible for London air defence so he could study German tactics. They had developed sensitive radar controlled searchlights working in groups. A master light was bright blue. Once it located a plane, several white lights locked on, apparently automatically, making evasion difficult. The guns seemed to be linked as well. As we approached the target he was busy making notes and seemed disappointed that we had not been illuminated. Then we were. Instantly, Dave went into a steep corkscrew dive, then climbed steeply, successfully getting out of the beams. Our major was very quiet after that and when we got back said he didn’t know how we coped.
Remaining alert throughout was always a necessity and when the home airfield was reached extra vigilance was needed. German night fighters would try to follow landing aircraft and catch them at their most vulnerable. Although radio silence was observed at take off, there was full radio contact with the controllers on return and their calm warm voices were always cheering, especially if an aircraft needed special clearance to get down quickly. One morning, at about dawn, we arrived at Kelstern when there was low level fog and the airfield was obscured. Dave heard the controller give clearance to an aircraft ahead and then to us. He kept getting glimpses of the one in front and then lost it but picked up the perimeter lights and landed quickly. As he touched down he said, “wrong airfield”. Our perimeter lights were adjacent to those of our sister station Binbrook and his error was understandable.
Mercy Missions
The assumption that the war was coming to an end did not mean there was any significant reduction in opposition. It its not widely known that after Dresden, in February 1945, some 7000 members of over 1000 aircraft of Bomber Command were lost ; over 10% of the total losses of over 55,000 aircrew from the command throughout the war.
Five days after Potsdam, we were called to a special briefing as we saw army lorries arriving. We were told that the Dutch population was in dire straights from starvation. The German Command had refused a request, through the Red Cross, to allow army lorries to cross the border with food supplies. When asked to allow safe passage to an air drop, they had also refused. Nevertheless, we were told that we were not to fire unless fired upon.
The first dropping zone was a racecourse near The Hague. There was a murmur of apprehension when we were told that 50-60 feet was the height from which to drop. This was about what the Dambusters did, but only after a lot of low flying training. Off we went at 11-29 am with bomb bays full of tons of basic food. Normal navigation was not possible or necessary. I stood behind Dave with a map and basically it was like guiding a fast car. As we swept over the houses and streets we could see adults and children waving excitedly. Some were weeping, soon so was I as still do when reminded. You could have recognised anyone, we were so low.
The doors were opened above the racecourse at 13-29 and it was soon covered in crates of supplies. We had a chocolate ration which we tied in handkerchief parachutes, which Wally threw from the rear turret. We saw German machine gunners swing their weapons towards us and Wally did likewise to them, but no one fired. It was probably the combination of emotion and the effect on the eyes of such low flying that I was airsick for the second time in my life. The squadron records say we dropped from 400 feet. This I cannot believe. We were below church spires and just above chimney pots.
There was a sea fret as we turned for home, which obscured the visual horizon. Instrument flying, so low, was hazardous and altimeter readings could not be relied on if there had been a change of air pressure. In the midst, we were aware of a blinding flash ahead of us lasting a few seconds. When we got back and reported this, we learned that an aircraft from another squadron must have exploded on hitting the sea.
The next day there was another flight, aptly named Operation Manna. We were excused, but I volunteered to substitute for a sick navigator in an Australian crew. We were airborne at 11-03 and landed back at 14-33, having dropped supplied near The Hague. The same street scenes were seen. Flying with this Australian crew was a new experience. There was banter and chatter most of the time and the pilot seemed to revel in seeing how low he could get.
As soon as the war had ended, many of our army prisoners were being released in Europe and a quick return home was needed. On May 11th., we flew to Brussels airport as part of Operation Exodus, where we collected 24 released soldiers. They were packed into the back, between the spars and I gave them a lecture to the effect that if they oved none of us would get back. Their weight in the back affected the trim of the aircraft, for which Dave had to correct. Any change in the trim, especially at take off, could be dangerous. One aircraft crashed on take off, killing all on board. A sad homecoming for some. We flew them to Dunsfold, where they were quickly processed and sent on leave.
Our job was done. We never flew together again. Of over 7,300 Lancasters built, V-Victor was one of only 34 to complete over 100 operations.
A final line-up Mary 1945
[photograph of the crew with their Lancaster]
[page break]
[centred] PEACETIME [/centred]
We soon had a Labour government, that was keen to arrange orderly release to civilian life and keep the troops occupied, especially with the war with Japan still active.
I spent a lot of time as liaison officer to a Polish squadron at Dunholme Lodge, and heard moving stories of their lives. Most of them had left Poland in 1939, knew nothing of their families and were wary of returning to a communist regime. Many of them had transferable skills and were able to remain in this country.
I also spent time with the unit education section that was preparing to run educational courses in a big way.
The atomic bomb ended the Japanese war and our squadron stand by for Tiger Force to go to Japan was ended. I was called to Bomber Command headquarters to see group captain Neville. The upshot was my promotion to Flight Lieutenant to return to Scampton and create and run a big educational operation. This was a new experience which involved day and evening courses for over 400 men and women. For the domestic science course, I remember sending the two WAAF instructors to RAF supplies at Cottesmore with blank requisition forms, signed by me as Bomber Command HQ. They came back delighted, with rolls of parachute silk, aircraft linen and cotton etc. Needless to say, their classes were well attended and several wedding dresses were created from parachute silk. We were given a large library specially ordered for the Educational and Vocational Scheme. I was busy and stretched, but it worked. Eventually, I was asked to remain and promised further promotion, but this was not what I saw as the future.
With peace assured. Muriel and I arranged to be married in February 1946 against not a little family opposition. In those days, you needed parent’s permission to marry if you were under 21. Muriel was 21 in February 1945 and I reached this majority in October, so we were able to do what we wished and crumble the opposition.
[photograph of Maurice and Muriel when they married in Bude, Cornwall in February 1946]
Dublin Core
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Title
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A retrospective - Bomber Command No 625 Squadron
Description
An account of the resource
Opens with some details of 625 Squadron and introduction with reasons for writing. Writes of beginning of the war when still at school and experiences before joining up. Mentions activities with Air Training Corps and being awarded an RAF bursary to attend Cambridge university as a member of the RAFVR. Relates experiences on the university air squadron. In 1943 departed for training in Canada describing the journey and training as navigator. Goes on to describe training back in England on Anson, Wellington and Halifax. before going to No 1 Aircrew Officers School at Hereford. Was posted to 625 Squadron on 2 March 1945 at RAF Kelstern flying the Lancaster. Writes of his experiences on the squadron including operations to Misburg , Nuremburg and other targets. After cease of hostilities describes operation manna sorties to Holland and prisoner of war repatriation flights. Concludes with peacetime activity and reflection on his time in the RAF. Includes some photographs of people, a target and aircraft.
Creator
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M Brook
Date
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2011-02
Format
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Twenty-two page document with photographs
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eng
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Text
Text. Memoir
Photograph
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BBrookMBrookMv1
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cambridge
England--London
Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
Ontario--London
England--Cumbria
England--Leicestershire
England--Herefordshire
England--Hereford
Germany
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Hanau
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Nordhausen (Thuringia)
Germany--Plauen
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Potsdam
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Netherlands
Netherlands--Hague
Ontario
New Brunswick
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-01
1940
1941-10
1942-07
1942-10
1943
1944-02
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-03-18
1945-03-22
1945-03-25
1945-03-31
1945-04-03
1945-04-09
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David Bloomfield
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
1 Group
625 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aerial photograph
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
briefing
coping mechanism
crewing up
debriefing
Gee
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Lancaster
love and romance
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
navigator
Nissen hut
nose art
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
P-51
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Husbands Bosworth
RAF Kelstern
RAF Millom
RAF Scampton
RAF Sturgate
searchlight
target photograph
training
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
Window
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1963/41315/BLazenbyHJLazenbyHJv1.2.pdf
35022f62bb4527b9a7da34bd424ec42f
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lazenby, Harold Jack
H J Lazenby
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lazenby, HJ
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. The collection concerns Warrant Officer Harold Jack Lazenby DFC (b. 1917, 652033 Royal Air Force) and contains his memoir, documents and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 57, 97 and 7 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Daniel, H Jack Lazenby and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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H Jack Lazenby DFC
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Jack Lazenby's autobiography.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Warrington
England--Wolverhampton
England--Shifnal (Shropshire)
England--London
England--Bampton (Oxfordshire)
England--Witney
England--Oxford
England--Cambridge
France--Paris
England--Portsmouth
England--Oxfordshire
England--Southrop (Oxfordshire)
England--Cirencester
England--Skegness
England--Worcestershire
England--Birmingham
England--Kidderminster
England--Gosport
England--Fareham
England--Southsea
Wales--Margam
Wales--Port Talbot
Wales--Bridgend
Wales--Porthcawl
England--Urmston
England--Stockport
Wales--Cardiff
Wales--Barry
United States
New York (State)--Long Island
Illinois--Chicago
England--Gloucester
Scotland--Kilmarnock
England--Surrey
England--Liverpool
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lincoln
Denmark--Anholt
Poland--Gdańsk
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Kiel
Europe--Mont Blanc
Denmark
England--Hull
Czech Republic--Plzeň
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Mablethorpe
Germany--Cologne
Italy--Turin
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
England--Land's End Peninsula
Italy--San Polo d'Enza
Italy--Genoa
Italy--Milan
Algeria
Algeria--Blida
Algeria--Atlas de Blida Mountains
England--Cambridge
England--Surrey
England--Ramsey (Cambridgeshire)
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Munich
France--Montluçon
Germany--Darmstadt
Scotland--Elgin
England--York
Scotland--Aberdeen
England--Grimsby
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Zeitz
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Heide (Schleswig-Holstein)
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Netherlands--Westerschelde
Germany--Rheine
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Bremen
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Belgium
England--Southend-on-Sea
England--Morecambe
England--Kineton
England--Worcester
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
England--London
Italy--La Spezia
France--Dunkerque
Poland--Szczecin
Poland
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Recklinghausen (Münster)
Netherlands
England--Sheringham
England--Redbridge
France--Saint-Nazaire
Atlantic Ocean--Kattegat (Baltic Sea)
Germany
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
United States Army Air Force
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Format
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99 printed sheets
Identifier
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BLazenbyHJLazenbyHJv1
Creator
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Lazenby, Harold Jack
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
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Pending text-based transcription
1654 HCU
20 OTU
207 Squadron
4 Group
5 Group
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
7 Squadron
97 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-17
B-24
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
briefing
Catalina
Chamberlain, Neville (1869-1940)
crewing up
debriefing
demobilisation
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
Distinguished Service Order
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
entertainment
flight engineer
flight mechanic
Flying Training School
George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Hampden
hangar
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hudson
Hurricane
Ju 88
killed in action
Lancaster
love and romance
Manchester
Master Bomber
Me 110
Me 262
mechanics engine
mess
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Nissen hut
Oboe
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
radar
RAF Barkstone Heath
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Benson
RAF Bourn
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Colerne
RAF Cosford
RAF Cranwell
RAF Dunkeswell
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Elvington
RAF Fairford
RAF Halton
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melton Mowbray
RAF Mepal
RAF Oakington
RAF Padgate
RAF Pershore
RAF Scampton
RAF Silverstone
RAF St Athan
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Swinderby
RAF Talbenny
RAF Tangmere
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Upwood
RAF Uxbridge
RAF Valley
RAF Warboys
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wing
recruitment
Resistance
Spitfire
sport
Stirling
target indicator
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Victoria Cross
Wellington
Whitley
Window
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/745/10745/ACockbillDFA171008.1.mp3
db5752c8519a065771ad0856ae6002c8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cockbill, Denis Francis Albert
D F A Cockbill
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flying Officer Denis Cockbill (1924, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 195 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cockbill, DFA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
LD: Right. This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Laura Dixon and the interviewee is Denis Cockbill. The interview is taking place in Penhale on the 8th of October 2017. Right. Hi Denis. Hello.
DC: Hello.
LD: Could you tell me just a bit about your early life before the Bomber Command?
DC: Before the Bomber Command.
LD: Yeah.
DC: Well, I was born in Newport.
LD: Ok.
DC: In 1924. I went to school in Newport. Went to the Grammar School. And my father worked as a, he was a clerk in the steelworks. And I had twelve months. Before, when I left this school I had twelve months. I only volunteered for the Air Force because I’d been bombed. Near misses a couple of time. I thought I’d get my own back so I joined the Air Force. So I was in the Air Training Corps. So when I was seventeen I volunteered as aircrew. I was attested because it’s quite tough, you know. You’ve got to be really fit and what have you. I passed that and they said, ‘Right. Pilot. Navigator, Air bomber.’ Which was the normal what people wanted to be. I didn’t. I wanted to be a wireless operator because my CO in the Air Training Corps was an ex-Merchant Navy radio officer. And he’d got me interested in radio. For instance when I went to the radio school they said, ‘In two or three months you’ll be doing eight words a minute.’ I could already do twelve so I walked it. So, I joined the Air Force when I was eighteen. Actually, I was three months late because the day I should have joined the Air Force I had an appendicectomy. So I was three months later. And three months on the squadron could have saved my life. Right.
LD: Ok. So a wireless operator. What do they actually do? Are you based on the plane or on the ground?
DC: Oh no. Aircrew wireless operator. Aircrew. Two years training.
LD: Oh ok.
DC: Ten months in radio school. Two hours of Morse a day.
LD: Right.
DC: You either learned it or you go around the bend and some did of course. See.
LD: Yeah.
DC: It’s like learning another language. You know, I mean I haven’t used it for donkeys years now but, you know what’s your Christian name?
LD: Dixon.
DC: No. Your Christian name.
LD: Laura.
DC: Laura.
LD: Yeah. Laura.
DC: De da de dit de da dit dit da dit da dit de da dit. That’s in Morse.
LD: Right. Ok. Wow.
DC: You don’t forget.
LD: Really. Oh, ok. So how long would a mission last for?
DC: Well, if you had a short mission two or three hours. The longest one I did was Berlin I think which was about eight and a half hours.
LD: Ok.
DC: Sat on oxygen all that time. The gunners were the worst off. I could move around. They couldn’t. They had to sit there for eight and a half hours.
LD: Wow. So, what other, apart from Berlin what other places did you go to?
DC: Actually, because I [pause] I mean I was fifteen when the war started so in three years I was eighteen. So when I joined the Air Force it was 1940, end of 1942. So the worst part was over. And I was two years training. So it wasn’t until the end of 1944 that I joined the squadron. War was over. So I was lucky. Fighter escort.
[pause]
DC: Right.
[pause – pages turning]
DC: Let me get my glasses.
LD: Ok.
[pause]
DC: That was the first trip I did which was Gelsenkirchen. It gives you the time. Take off at 0600 and we landed at [pause] no. It was five hours. That was in the, in the Ruhr and it was one of our worst trips. We were holed. We lost an engine and managed to limp back. My navigator had a bit of flak just miss him. So that was one. Then there was, then we did Kiel. And we sank, we sank the Admiral Scheer. And that was in red. It was a night trip. Then we went out again during the, on the same one on that day. That was 9th. On the 13th we went out again. Then I did Berlin. Heligoland. Bad Oldesloe.
LD: Never heard of that.
DC: That’s in the Ruhr.
LD: Oh.
DC: That’s in the Ruhr. That was what? Six hours. That was the longest trip you see was this one. No. Berlin. Where’s Berlin? [pause] Eight and a half hours at night time. And then we did, oh this was when we dropped, have you heard of the Manna raids?
LD: I was going to ask about that. Yeah.
DC: I was on that. In fact, if, of because logbooks aren’t filled in always by us. These were filled in by somebody else, “Spam Raid,” “Flour Raid.” And these were counted as operations because we were flying over enemy territory. Germans, if they’d opened up four hundred, five hundred feet high they couldn’t have missed us. And we dropped. I did, I did three I think [pause] I thought I did three. Yeah. One. Two. No. I did, I did two actually. That was Manna. Then we did Exodus which was bringing prisoners of war back from France. And we also did later on from Italy as well. So, yeah. Was that what you wanted?
LD: Yeah. Ok. So what was your relationship like with your fellow crew members?
DC: Oh excellent. It had to be because we were, we were, it was we were a team.
LD: Yeah.
DC: And if you had one bad apple in a team it doesn’t work. And the biggest problem of course was when you were crewed up. Do you know how you crewed up?
LD: No.
DC: Well, in a Lancaster there’s seven. The pilot, flight engineer, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator and two gunners. Right. So when I, when I did my, finished my training and I got my wings and everything I went to eventually I went to what they called Operational Training Unit where you crew up. You meet. You get your crew. You get the crews together. Right. And what would happen you’d get an intake of say twenty wireless operators, twenty pilots, twenty navigators, twenty flight engineers and forty gunners, because there were two gunners in a plane, eh. They put you in a hangar for the morning with coffee and say, ‘Right. Crew up.’ Now, you were with all these people you’d never met before. Right. And you’ve got to decide who was the best. Which is very difficult. And the best one to get of course is the pilot because he’s the one that flies it. Nobody else. If he goes we’ve had it then. And you just mingled around and get talking and actually on the way there in the train I was sat on a train with a bomb aimer and he was just joining up as well so we clicked altogether. We had two of us, see.
LD: Ok. So what would you do —
DC: And then there’s, there’s a story of the pilot. He was short of a bomb aimer. Got all the crew but a bomb aimer. And he saw the bomber walking around. He said, ‘Are you crewed up?’ And the gun aimer, he was a gunner actually, he said ‘Are you crewed up.?’ And the gunner said, ‘No.’ So the pilot said, ‘Would you like to join my crew?’ And the gunner said, ‘Yeah. Ok. But,’ he said, ‘I’m a bloody awful gunner.’ And the pilot said, ‘That’s alright. I’m a bloody awful pilot.’ [laughs] So they gelled.
LD: Yeah.
DC: You’ve got to gel.
LD: Ok. So what did you do in your spare time when you weren’t flying? As entertainment? What would you do together?
DC: The NAAFI. Cakes and buns. The cinema, which was very popular. And, yes, loafing around as normal. Playing football and probably snooker if you had a snooker table there. And if you had time to go out down to the local village. To the pub if they had any beer.
LD: Ok.
DC: That’s about it.
LD: So, can you tell me more about Operation Manna. Because —
DC: Yeah.
LD: It must have been a lot different from dropping bombs.
DC: Could you switch it off a minute?
LD: Yeah. Sure.
[recording paused]
DC: Sorry about that.
LD: No. Ok. I’ll just. You know, we’ll I keep some of that for the recorder. So —
DC: Yeah.
LD: Talk about Operation Manna. It must have felt —
DC: It should have been on the recorder, shouldn’t it? What I just told you.
LD: It was but I can repeat it anyway. Or, you know, repeat bits of it. So, you know you’re dropping food and not bombs.
DC: That’s right.
LD: That must have felt different from your usual.
DC: Oh yeah. It was brilliant. And I mean the Dutch were out. All the flags. We went out on D-Day, just before D-Day and there were orange bunting and flags and they were waving and cheering. It was fantastic. In fact there was a Manna, Manna Association. Every, once every five years we went over there and we were feted by the Dutch people. They thought we were fantastic. In fact, I got, I got a medal.
LD: Oh ok.
DC: Do you want to see it?
LD: Yeah. Sure. I’ll stop this now.
[recording paused]
LD: Course not. No. It’s interesting. So, with Operation Manna do you know how bad, how bad the people were?
DC: Oh, yes.
LD: How bad the starvation.
DC: Well, what happened, how it came is about is our troops were pushing through the low countries and they decided to leave the bulk of the Netherlands under the control of the Germans because they’d already blown some of the dykes. And the fear was if we attacked they would blow all the dykes and Holland would be completely under water. Which would be no good at all. So we left them alone. But it was one of the worst winter. A very, very bad winter. And because nothing was getting in or out including food people were starving. And eventually about over twenty thousand died of starvation. Mainly the young and the very old. Now, we knew about this and eventually we made an agreement with the Germans. Eventually. It took some time. That we would fly our aircraft at a very low height. We had to fly very low because it wasn’t on parachute. It was just double hessian sacks with the food inside. If you dropped from height it would damage. So we had to fly very low. And the agreement was reached. They agreed that we could do it. So, we did. The first trip was cancelled. Probably because some disagreement. And when we did, we flew, the gunners were already armed and when we flew over the coast you could see the Germans behind their guns. Five hundred feet. If they’d opened up they couldn’t have missed. We lost one aircraft in two weeks. We don’t know what. It just disappeared in the North Sea somewhere. But over the period we dropped almost seven thousand tons of food and saved lives.
LD: Ok.
DC: You meet a Dutchman and say Manna they love you.
LD: That’s lovely. So did you keep in touch with any comrades in the years after the bombing?
DC: I did. They’re all gone. I’m the only one left.
LD: Yeah.
DC: My last crew member was our flight engineer. He died eighteen months ago.
LD: Oh. Ok. Oh.
DC: My pilot was an Australian. We’re in, I’m in touch with his family but only recently because we were very reticent. We don’t talk. I never spoke about my war at all. My father never spoke about his war which was a great pity because I was born five, six years after the end of the First World War. My father was injured at Passchendaele. He got the military medal. We don’t know how because his records were bombed in the Blitz. And he never spoke about it, about his war, at all. I never asked him. I wished to God I did.
LD: Yeah. It’s a pity.
DC: And my son said [unclear] saying to me, ‘Write a book.’ So, what they do when I go out with them they take a tape recorder. Because the things I say now I’ve never said before.
LD: Yeah. Ok. So, with your, could you tell me about your primary school visits and the kind of reaction that you get?
DC: Oh, excellent. Excellent. What happens, they don’t do it any longer by the way but they used to bring school children in from South Wales and Gloucestershire to the Drill Hall in, they do it all over the country but here it was the Drill Hall in Chepstow. And they come for the day and the Drill Hall, the museum would be rigged out like war time kitchens and all this sort of thing. And in the Drill Hall they’d have war time posters and all the equipment and the ladies would talk to them about that. And then they’d bring them all in for us to talk to them.
LD: Ok.
DC: And some of the questions you get from these kids.
LD: Yeah.
DC: How many did you kill?
LD: I don’t know.
DC: No. They were fantastic. And it stopped now unfortunately which is a great pity. Because school people, it’s amazing how many youngsters [pause] May, if I may call you a youngster. How old are you?
LD: Twenty two.
DC: I was still flying —
LD: Oh yeah.
DC: When I was your age. You’re still to me a youngster.
LD: Yeah.
DC: And there’s a lot of things that you don’t know about my war. I didn’t know anything about the First World War. Henry the fifth in history we got up to, I think. Nothing about modern stuff at all.
LD: No.
DC: And the kids today don’t.
LD: No.
DC: I mean, I was in, we were in Hendon. The Air Museum at Hendon and, with my family. I mean we were in front of the Lancaster and I was saying about various experience. Eventually we had a whole crowd around us and one chaps said, ‘We learned more off of you than the staff.’ And one, one chap said, we said about the Americans, what they did. If it hadn’t been for the Americans we’d have lost Two World Wars. And bearing in mind they lost thirty five thousand in their Bomber Command. Even people like Clark Gable. Have you heard of Clark Gable?
LD: No.
DC: Film star.
LD: No.
DC: Well, he was, he was a gunner on them.
LD: Right. Ok.
DC: They didn’t have to. They didn’t have to.
LD: Yeah.
DC: And one of the visitors said, ‘Were the Americans in the war?’ Where’s he been?
LD: How old, so how old was he? Was just —
DC: Oh, I don’t know. I can’t remember now. Probably forty. Fifty. Something like that.
LD: Oh right. And he asked that. Oh. Ok. Can you just repeat what you said about the girl from Holland that you, that you met?
DC: Yes.
LD: Yeah. If you could just repeat what you said about that. Yes.
DC: Well, the, the talk to the schoolchildren that were in the Drill Hall in Chepstow. And the first one I did rather than talk about dropping bombs to school children I tell them about Operation Manna because I’ve got a very good print of the actual aircraft doing it. After the first one Anna phoned me up and said, ‘There’s a lady that lives in Itton, and she was at school in Holland. So can you talk together?’ So we, we met eventually. We met at the next talk. I knew who she was but she didn’t know who I was. And I had a, behind me the big print of a Lancaster dropping food covered up. So eventually this lady got up and started talking about when she was a school girl in Holland. And her father was taken away, or almost taken away. And they had no food. They had to chop up furniture and people were starving. And then one day she said big aircraft came over and instead of dropping bombs they dropped food. And out of her bag she picked out a picture she drew as a child. You know. Of an aircraft dropping food. And I was listening to all this. So when she finished I got up and I said about this lady who saw these aircraft dropping food. So I whipped the cover off the picture. I said, ‘It could have been that aircraft. And I could have been in it.’ And she burst into tears. The teachers burst into tears. And ever since then all my future talks were, we were a double act. Very good. And we still are friends.
LD: Really?
DC: I still take her to lunch now. Yeah.
LD: Oh. So she lives —
DC: She lives in Itton. Only ten miles away.
LD: Oh, lovely. Oh, ok.
DC: We never met until — never met until —
LD: Yeah.
DC: The talks. That was about twelve years ago. Thirteen years ago.
LD: But she moved here.
DC: No. She —
LD: Oh.
DC: Well, she moved here.
LD: Yeah.
DC: After the war. She was a teacher of art in [pause] in she came over as a au pair actually and finished up as a schoolteacher in Bristol. And then they liked, the Dutch like Wales.
LD: Yeah.
DC: There are a lot of visitors. They don’t like, because there’s no hills in Holland.
LD: Yeah.
DC: She bought a house in Itton, which is in the Wye Valley. Very nice.
LD: Oh, that’s lovely.
DC: That was in the 60s.
LD: Yeah. Ok. So, how do you think the Bomber Command is being perceived now. Like how —
DC: Dreadful.
LD: Right. Ok.
DC: When I get and if I meet somebody I’ve never met before and I say I was Bomber Command the usual reaction is Dresden. Which incidentally was a legitimate target. The fact that we dropped bombs and killed people. But it was all out war. No mentions are made of what the Germans did before. We started it and so when I give my talks to school children as I say I talk about when we saved lives and not when we took lives. Nobody knows about that. Which is a great pity.
LD: Yes.
DC: And you’ve got to bear in mind that Bomber Command lost more on a pro-rata basis more than any other branch of the armed forces. One in three were killed. Five thousand. Well, I think a hundred and fifty thousand flew in Bomber Command. Fifty five thousand were killed. Ten thousand prisoners of war they managed to get out which was very unusual. Five thousand killed whilst training. Can you imagine when you’re training you’ve got the aircraft and they’ve come off the front line so they’re probably clapped out to start out with. The crews on them are on a learning curve. How would you like to get on an plane in say Cardiff to fly to Spain or somewhere and they said to you, ‘By the way the pilot’s never flown this before and he’s on his own.’ Would you go?
LD: No.
DC: We had to.
LD: Yeah. Oh wow.
DC: So, a lot were killed in training you know. Of course air, air collisions as well. I mean, I mean can you imagine a night bomber raid with say eight hundred aircraft all flying with no lights.
LD: No. No. But there were no problems with your particular craft that you, do you remember any injuries or any problems?
DC: Oh yeah. Well, we got shot up on our first trip to Gelsenkirchen. Lost an engine and the shrapnel in the aircraft and a piece just missed the, the pilot was, the navigator was standing up, it went through his legs. Other than that I was lucky. I didn’t do many trips. We only did ten. Whereas to complete a tour was thirty trips and not many did that.
Other: Tell, tell Laura about the how Ted lost his position on the vic.
DC: Say that again.
Other: Tell the story of how, tell Laura the story of how Ted, your skipper lost his position on the vic and he was flying along the line in the [unclear]
DC: Oh well. That’ a long story, John.
LD: Oh, no. Yeah. Sure.
DC: Well, most of my trips which, towards the end of the war we had fighter escorts. In the olden days they had no fighter escort because they couldn’t fly that distance and it was over enemy territory. But as our troops were pushing forward we had fighter stations in France which would give us cover. So on a daylight we would have fighter escort. And on one trip we did it was a daylight trip. Probably eight hundred aircraft. And we were called a GH squadron. We flew on radar. Even in those days. One aircraft out of three had this equipment and it was, it was a cathode ray tube in front of me and you’d have two lines with two scrobes. One above. One above. And you would, we would pass back the windspeed to a base in England. They knew the height we were flying. They knew the speed we were flying. And they knew the bomb load. So they could commute, compute the exact spot where they dropped the bombs. And what they would do then they would send signals out on this cathode ray. Where these two scrobes were they were like that and they slowly get together. When they got there you dropped the bombs. There was only one aircraft had this. The other two were followers. They’d watch him. Right. So the bomb aimer, as they got nearer the bomb aimer would open the bomb doors so they’d open their bomb doors. When he dropped his bombs they dropped their bombs. So in twenty minutes you got eight hundred aircraft dropping their bombs on the target, you see. Now, we were on this one trip. We were a follower. In other words we were one of the ones behind. Right. Now, you take off. Eighteen aircraft take off on the squadron. You’ve got letters on the side of the aircraft. Right. So, you knew who your leader was so you look out for that letter aircraft to follow him. We took off and couldn’t find him in the melee. So my pilot flew down the bomber stream. There was the bomber stream. He flew down the bomber stream looking for our squadron and we couldn’t find him. So as we got near the target there was one vic of three that was slightly out of formation so he pfft underneath and he was in between. And these other aircraft were, ‘Get out. Get out.’ You know. So, we flew behind him, dropped on him, dropped bombs and then, when, when we dropped the bomb we just pushed off on our own.
LD: Wow. Yeah.
DC: So things were quite funny as well.
LD: Oh, that’s good. Yeah.
DC: That what you mean, Steve?
Other: Yeah. And the other one was the where you got the Spitfire escort coming back on that first trip. And the mid-upper —
DC: Oh, that was Gelsenkirchen. Yeah.
Other: Yeah. And you were so pleased to see them.
DC: Another, when we were shot up on this Gelsenkirchen it was a daylight and we lost an engine. We lost an engine and a half actually. Now, she’ll fly on two engines but slowly lose speed. Lose height. We were about twenty thousand. Now, it was a lovely clear blue sky and we had to leave the formation. And once you leave the formation on your own, you know you’re set up for any night fighters. Any fighters of course. So we had, I had a verey pistol above me and the instruction was that if you need assistance you fire off a green. If you are in dire problems you fire off a red. So we said to Ted, we were on our own and we had fighter, we couldn’t see them. They were way above us of course. The Typhoons and the Spitfires and the Mustangs were the best aircraft. Anyway, we said to Ted, ‘Don’t you think we ought to get some fighter escort?’ ‘No. No. We’ll be alright.’ Anyway, eventually we convinced him. I fired off a green and within twenty seconds we had two clipped wing Spits on our wingtip. And that was, the pilot hit the roof. The gunners never saw them. If they’d have been German we’d have had it. Anyway, a lovely feeling flying back with two Spits on your wing. When we got, when we got to the Channel they disappeared. That was nice that.
LD: Yes. Yeah. Ok. So, anything else before I leave? Anything you can think of. Any other stories or memories that we haven’t touched yet?
DC: No. I mean —
LD: No. Ok.
DC: It was, you know, you know I’ve told you how we crew up. And when we got back you know we had what we called the flying breakfast. But every time we took off we had bacon and egg and what have you which you couldn’t get in the wartime, see. Right. And when we got back the same thing. And the joke was you’d say to anybody opposite, ‘If you don’t come back can I have your breakfast?’
LD: Oh right.
DC: So you had a sense of humour.
LD: Yeah. Yeah. That’s true, yeah.
DC: We had a sense of humour.
LD: Yeah. Yeah.
DC: No. I know I shouldn’t say this but in some way I enjoyed it. I was young. No commitments. Flying. How many people flew in those days? I must admit when I flew first I was airsick by the way which wasn’t very clever. And when we did fighter affiliation [laughs] do you know what that is?
LD: No.
DC: Fighter affiliation is when you go up on a, on a training flight with gunners and you’re attacked by a Spitfire as if it’s a German and you take evasive action. And evasive action, if he’s seen coming from the port which is the left to you, ‘Enemy aircraft port. Corkscrew port.’ And the air, the pilot would throw the control column up, kick the control column and the aircraft would do that. And then he’d pull it up and he’d do that. So you’re doing that all the time. And if you suffer from airsick that doesn’t do any good.
LD: No.
DC: Now, the first time we did that was on a Wellington on training. And because the aircraft was very old he wasn’t allowed to do more than a thirty degree bank. In other words it would, I was sat there, I did nothing. I just sat there you see. But we couldn’t fly out without a full crew even then. But with, on the Wimpy it was gentle so I just sat there no problem. When we converted on the Lancasters and the first time I went up on the fighter affiliation I still sat there like this. I heard the aircraft, the pilot, the gunners say, ‘Corkscrew starboard,’ or port, ‘Go.’ The next thing I’m on the roof because I lost all gravity. I was on the roof. My pencils would be flying around in, there was dust in the air and when he pulled it up I couldn’t move see. And then I felt sick.’
LD: Oh no.
DC: And the elsan toilet down the back of the aircraft [laughs] So when we did, when we did future ones the pilot would call me up and say, ‘Taff, get down the elsan.’ [laughs] So, but the aircraft weren’t that wide at the bottom with two metal stanchions you see. So you go down. The elsan’s there. The rear gunner turret there. The elsan’s there. So you stand like this and you wait until you hear, you’re on the intercom. ‘Corkscrew. Port. Go.’ So immediately your legs come up so you daren’t be sick then. But you’ve got to make sure the lid of the elsan’s on [laughs] So then when he, when he pulls it up that’s the time to lift lid bluuugh. And once you’re sick you’re fine. It’s when you’re not sick.
LD: Yeah.
DC: I remember, I remember not long after the war we took what we called the Baedekers. We took the ground staff on a low level tour of the Ruhr to show them the damage we’d done. Now, on came these WAAFs with flasks of coffee and cakes and God knows what. And it was June. Just after the war.
LD: Yeah.
DC: Hot. And if you’re flying low when it’s hot you get updrafts. So we sat there. They don’t sit, they didn’t see much. They were sick all the time most of them. And I had a job to make sure I wasn’t as well.
LD: Yeah.
DC: Yeah. It was good fun.
LD: Yeah. It sounds good fun.
DC: So we enjoyed it as well.
LD: Yeah. I suppose if you’re young and you’re excited then, yeah. Ok.
DC: And of course I was commissioned eventually so I was walking around with the officer’s uniform with wings up you know. You felt good.
LD: Yeah. Ok. Well, if that’s, if there’s not anything else than I think we’re pretty much done. Ok. Well, thank you.
DC: Ok.
LD: Very good. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Denis Francis Cockbill
Creator
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Laura Dixon
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACockbillDFA171008
Format
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00:29:06 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Newport, Denis volunteered for the Royal Air Force as he was tired of bombing, wishing to get his own back, he joined the Air Corps at 17. Wishing to train as a wireless operator because of his interest in radio technology, he officially joined the Royal Air Force three months after his 18th birthday. Having to train for two years, Denis joined an aircrew in 1944, flying Lancasters. He attests that learning radio communication was like learning a new language and that he has never forgotten it. He recounts several operations in which he flew over enemy territory, including flying over Berlin, an operation which took eight hours. He also recalls several experiences during his time, including near-misses, as well as Operation Manna and Operation Exodus. He gives detailed information about Operation Manna, stating that he also joined the Manna Association and travelled to the Netherlands once every five years for a celebration. Denis states that his relationship with his crew was excellent and believes that it had to be because they always worked as a team. He recalls that he completed ten operations in total, but believes he was lucky to survive these, recounting a specific experience in which he was escorted by Spitfires. He admits that he rarely spoke of his war, following his father’s example of the first world war, until recently. He now invites primary school children to learn of his experiences. He continues to give combined talks about Operation Manna with a Dutch lady who survived the Second World War. He believes that the representation of Bomber Command has been terrible, naming Dresden as a legitimate target, but he also prefers to talk of saving lives through Manna and Exodus. He states that the general public does not understand Bomber Command’s losses.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1944
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
195 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
Gee
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
recruitment
Spitfire
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1350/28422/MJenkinsFC59301-150515-01.2.pdf
0c7c59931cbf002ba0c9725bfe8b94e9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Jenkins, F C
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant F C Jenkins (1920 - 2000) and contains his log book, biography and three photographs. He flew a total of 56 operations as a navigator with 149, 148 and 271 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Kevin Jenkins and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-05-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Jenkins, FC
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Flight Lieutenant FC Jenkins
Born Eastney, Hampshire March 1920. The only son of a Royal Marine Gunner who had been put forward for a Victoria Cross after the raid on Zeebrugge in 1918.
Married Sheelagh Newman at the age of 20. Had one son at the age of 23. Died on the Isle of Wight at the age of 80 years.
Flew in Wellingtons as Bomb Aimer/ Navigator and after his proscribed tour of duty (which he extended even in the face of a devastating rate of mortality for flight crew) he transferred to Transport Command flying in Dakotas including being the Navigator in one of the Dakotas towing gliders to the Arnhem battle.
Signed up to serve in the RAF (not ‘called up’) at the age of 19 years. Left the RAF with the rank of Flight Lieutenant. Won the DFM For gallantry and devotion to duty in the execution of air operations. As an airman of 148 Squadron he participated in 57 operational missions, of which 28 were carried out over Germany and enemy-occupied territory. Sergeant Jenkins was specially chosen for the first raids on Italy from England. In one raid on Milan, he scored a direct hit on the Pirelli factory. On another occasion, with the oil refinery at Port Marghere, Venice as the objective, he displayed superb navigation as, owing to adverse weather conditions, he was compelled to rely entirely on astro-navigation. On his last operational flight from England, he scored a great success when attacking the Focke Wulf factory at Bremen. He dropped two sticks of bombs, scoring a direct hit with every bomb. In addition, he secured two photographs which recorded each stick bursting on the target. As a result of this raid, intelligence information stated that one third of the factory output ceased. In the Middle East scene of operations, he performed excellent work, including successful raids on targets in Libya, Greece, Rhodes and Crete. On one occasion, during an attack on Tripoli harbour, he obtained a direct hit on a ship which was set on fire, while in another attack at Messina he obtained a hit on the power station and assisted in the attack on the marshalling yard whereby the entire objective was set on fire. Throughout, he was said to have shown great courage, skill and determination.
Anecdotes: On one raid over Germany his Wellington was ‘held’ by German searchlights for many minutes. Amazingly this was not followed up by anti aircraft fire as presumably the German ‘Ack Ack’ guns were too busy firing at other targets! After another raid his Pilot misjudged the landing back in England and overshot the runway but fortunately all escaped with bruises and the plane was largely undamaged. On one raid as the Wellington finished its bombing ‘run’ the bomb bay doors jammed and as the plane banked Freddie Jenkins began to fall through the open doors, but was able to grab the edge of the bomb bay opening in time to prevent his disappearance into the dark night below!
[page break]
He and his fellow crew men never seemed to bother overmuch with parachutes and also they got rid of the machine guns in the beam of their aircraft to reduce weight. They were proud of the plane’s manoeuvrability, strength and speed and overall felt that to ‘stay with the plane’ come what may was the preferred option.
I’m almost 100% certain that 149 Squadron was the one that my Dad was serving with. The Log Book sent you does make reference to my Dad having dropped food ‘packages’ (towards the end of his active service and after he had finished his bombing sorties plus the extra ones he tacked on).
At the end of the war no. 149 squadron participated in Operation Manna, to drop food to the starved Dutch population still under German occupation, and Operation 'Exodus', to return former prisoners of war back to the UK.
The other interesting thing regards ‘his’ Squadron is that the famous war time movie called “Target for Tonight” being commanded by Group Captain Pickard (who was later killed when bombing the Amiens prison camp) was based on 149 Squadron and features a Wellington bomber called “F” for Freddie. A bit of a coincidence I guess as my Dad was always known to his chums as “Freddie” and all of his active sorties were in Wellingtons.
One other anecdote was that he would never fly without his ‘lucky charm’ - ie. a rabbits foot. On one occasion he forgot to have it in his pocket with all his fellow aircrew in the Wellington getting ready to take off. His ‘skipper’ (ie. the first pilot) waited on the tarmac whilst Freddie ran back to the billet hut to get his ‘charm’.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flight Lieutenant FC Jenkins
Description
An account of the resource
A biography of FC Jenkins. It covers his birth and marriage but concentrates on his RAF years. He took part in 58 operations and survived the war to continue in RAF service.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
K Jenkins
Format
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Two printed sheets
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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MJenkinsFC59301-150515-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Hampshire
Netherlands--Arnhem
Italy--Milan
Italy--Venice
Germany--Bremen
Libya
Greece
Greece--Rhodes
Greece--Crete
Libya--Tripoli
Italy--Messina
Belgium--Zeebrugge
Italy
Germany
Belgium
Netherlands
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jan Waller
149 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
C-47
Distinguished Flying Medal
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
pilot
superstition
Victoria Cross
Wellington