1
25
91
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/127/11/ATurnerB150602.2.mp3
1c6080ee78c66828fc79e2847ce7791d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Turner, Betty
B Turner
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. The collection consists of an oral history interview with Betty Turner, (– 2015, 2146029), a photograph and two poems. Leading aircraftswoman Betty Turner served in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force at 92 Group Headquarters as a wireless operator. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Betty Turner and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Turner, B
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Other persons present: Betty Turner’s daughter, Shelley Marshall [SM]
HH: Ok. Here we are, my name is Heather Hughes, and I’m sitting with Betty Turner who was in the WAAFs during World War 2, in Betty’s home in Bierton and it is Tue, Wednesday? , Tuesday, Tuesday the 2nd of June, 2015. Thank you Betty, so much, for agreeing to do this interview today.
BT: You’re very [emphasis] welcome indeed.
HH: Betty I wonder if we could start by talking about where you were born and grew up?
BT: I was born in Aylesbury, I went to school in Aylesbury, and [pause], I went from here and signed up when the war was on - well, at first, of course, I was working at, um, a very – when I was fourteen we had to leave school in those days at fourteen, and I had a job in a very exclusive shoe shop. I always loved that shop, I was bound and determined I was going to get a job there, and I did, and –
HH: Do you remember the name of the shoe shop?
BT: Yes! It was Ivords [?] and we had customers like the Dimbleby boys, their father was away in the war of course when they would come in, and there would be the sister and the two brothers, and mom would come in with them, and I would wait on them for shoes, not realising how famous they [emphasis] were going to be. Anyway, that was my – and then, I decided – I had a boyfriend, who was shot down, over France, and killed, and the very next day I said I’m joining the, the WAAF. I was seventeen at the time, and, so my mother said ‘alright, I’ll take you to join up’ to High Wycombe – we had to go to High Wycombe – and my brother at the same time wanted to come with us, and he said ‘I’m going to join up too’, but he was only fifteen. Anyway [pause, deep breath] I joined up, and this was in December, December 6th I always remember – the date of the, that Caley was shot down – and I, um, went to Wycombe as I say, the next day, and that was about the 7th of December that I actually went to give my signature –
HH: Was that in nineteen - ?
BT: Forty-two.
HH: Forty-two.
BT: Forty-two. But I wasn’t called until January – first week, I believe, but it was January anyway when I actually went, and I left here, and went to [pause] Gloucester. I think it was Gloucester.
HH: And is that where you went for training?
BT: Ye – well… Yes, to sort you out I think in Gloucester, your uniforms, and what you ought to be and things like that you know. I said driver please [?] [laughs] and they killed themselves laughing, I’m only five foot, I wouldn’t reach the pedals on the trucks at all [laughs]. But I think everybody asked to be a driver when they first joined up. Anyway, at that point we went to Morecombe for square-bashing, and when we came back – I think it was Innsworth, I’m not sure, you know, the memory fades a bit doesn’t it? But there [emphasis] they gave us some, sort of, tests [emphasis] about different things and they needed wireless operators apparently, and everybody had to sit around with a paper and pencil, and they would give you, er, records – they would play a record, and they’d say ‘now you’re going to hear some dots and dashes. All I want you to do is to tell me whether they’re the same each time or different’, and so the record would start and we would have to say write it all down, and I apparently did fine, and they thought immediately well ‘she’s ok she could be a wireless operator’, and after I had done my square bashing – that was first – they read that I was coming to Winslow in Buckinghamshire, and I thought ‘ooh dear’ - I wanted to go somewhere exciting [laughs]. But I, there you go, I came home – quite close to home anyway, only ten miles actually away. It was okay, I had the best of both worlds really didn’t I? They said ‘you’re going to 92 Group Headquarters – Bomber Command’. So, I, that’s what I did! I came over to Winslow, and there didn’t seem to be a lot of RAF around but it was because everybody was on shift work, and the hours would be – I can’t remember all the hours but it’s in that, um, brochure I gave you, from like eight o’clock in the morning ‘til midnight, long hours it seemed. Some were shorter hours and then we would have a couple of days off.
HH: And what did you do with your days off?
BT: I’d come home. And my father would, usually, ask me if I was alright, and did I need any money, and sometimes leave me ten bobs [laughs], ten bob, at the side of my bed, and I’d wake up in the morning and I’d say ‘whoopee I’ve got some money!’ [laughs]. We never had any money, and we always seemed hungry. We were always ready to go into a restaurant and eat if we could find a place to do it, you know, because restaurants, things weren’t easy in the restaurants at that time. Anyway so that was fine. The work was just really [emphasis] quite boring, because that’s all you did was put your earphones on and you had a key, and you had, um, you had receiving and you had sending of Morse code constantly, and it was [emphasis] pretty boring.
HH: But very vital.
BT: But vital, I suppose – well I found that out later, but I didn’t know what I did, and it was just different, really. In the morning we would check with the, all the stations that we had, and they’re on their paper – I can’t remember the names of them all – but the different stations that were in that 92 Group then they would send Morse back to us and you know we would answer backwards and forwards. Not plain language, most of the time, it was certain, certain codes that we would send to them. Every half an hour we would have to send a very very powerful signal – I can still remember it today it was V3A – and then we would give them the time, and we’d go ‘dee dee, dee dee’ [making Morse code sounds] until the second hand went onto the twelve we would hit the key, down, and um, apparently it was for other aircraft and everybody to get their time right, you know, er, it was a very powerful signal and it could be heard many many thousands of miles away, but we never knew why we were doing it. We never asked questions. We signed the secrets thing and we never spoke about what we did. My dad asked me about what we did and ‘oh I just Morse code, you know’, but nobody knew. We didn’t know why we were doing it. And then another time we would fill pages of five letter groups, and five letter groups, and we had a pad, you know, a pad of paper that size and it was asking you questions on – you wrote down what you could hear in five letter groups, and then when your pad was full, you’d take all of the girls’, if they had them you’d collect them up and take them into the main room of the house, because we were in like a, like a Nissen type hut part that had been built on the front of the house, so that it was separate. But in the house we would go for other things like we would get - have our pay parade ever Friday, second Friday morning, and ‘quote your last three letters’ and ‘come to attention’ and they’d pay you, which was very nice, on every other week that would happen and um, that was in the house – we’d go in the house for that, and there was also a lot of RAF personnel in the house but we never actually saw the room that they were in, and outside, at night especially, we’d notice a motorbike – a guy with a motorbike, and we assumed that he must be doing something with what we were taking over to the house – we didn’t know of course. And it wasn’t until I went to Bletchley Park, many years later, and I could hear the Morse code going, and after looking at all the things and listening to the people that were leading us around, what we did, and I’m thinking ‘gosh! I remember that’ and ‘I remember this’, and ‘I remember that’, and it dawned on me what we were doing. But it was years afterwards, prior to that I had no knowledge of what we did, at all. Yeah there was a um – but when we were on, um, hours off, of course, that was very nice, we’d also have dances, at camp, we – the girls, were in the stables of the big house –
HH: Was it kind of dormitory type accommodation?
BT: No, it was, strictly – you know what stables look like, with horses in them? Well, we were in those same things but we weren’t horses [laughing]. We had potbelly stoves to keep us warm, you know [laughing], and it had a gutter where the horses used to do their business and it would run down into the drain, but that was cleaned out [laughing] before we went in there. Oh dear, yes, and at times it would be very draughty.
HH: So did you each have your own stable then?
BT: Well, no, there were two of us in the one stable. Oh well, yes, two of us in each stable – pretty sure it was only two of us, yeah I think it was two, but of course, in the long building itself, there would be lots of, lots of stables. Eventually after I had been there about a – two years, I finally got to go in the house, but I’m sure that was servants’ quarters for the girls - some of the girls would go in there, and then any new girls coming along would go in the stables I suppose. Although, when war ended, when VE Day came along, it was very quickly destroyed, our cabin. Everything [emphasis] was destroyed very very quickly. And there was no more Morse code – nothing – it just stopped, and we were all posted to other places. Then [emphasis] I really enjoyed the work [laughs], I was posted to a place called Great Massingham – that’s up near the Wash, we decided, I’ve seen it on the map yes, up near the Wash – and it was, I was put in the Officers’ Mess, in the corner, with a telephone and a desk, and the calls would come in for the boys from their girlfriends or their wives, and I’d be the one to call out their name and say ‘you are wanted on the telephone’, and it was super [emphasis]. And in the morning, instead of going to the cook house like we used to do at Winslow, I would go and I would have a nice fried breakfast, the same as the officers would have. I’d have mine first though before I went on duty, then later on of course they would all come in and have their breakfast, it was very nice. That was a super job! And I actually saw the planes for a change, because we saw no planes on our camp at all, except the Wellingtons at, at um [pause] what is the – not Wing, not Wing, where - oh I can’t think of the name of the – but we used to have to go onto that field aerodrome when we were doing our experience flights which we didn’t enjoy very much really –
HH: What did that involve?
BT: It involved flying around with a pilot, and I think we were supposed to work the set I’m not quite sure [laughing] I can’t remember. It was to find out how difficult it is to keep on frequency so they wanted us to experience, you know, what it was like to fly – I only went up a couple of times though [pause] but it was – I would not volunteer to go. I did not [emphasis] enjoy it. Sometimes the pilots used to make fun of us, be heading for a barrage balloon and say ‘oh I don’t think I’m going to tell her’ [laughing]. They would tease us, in other words, they would tease us, and it wasn’t very nice really. But we did have fun when we were all off duty. We put on pantomime, well we put on one, and then there was a play. But unfortunately, just before I got to Winslow, there had been a Wellington come down and go into one of the houses and kill several people, and one of our sergeants managed to get some people out, and he got fairly [pause] badly burnt in a couple of places, and he got recommended for that. He really was quite a hero to the rest of them, they were all saying ‘what a great job you did’. But it was all over with when I got there – the rubble was there of course, they were cleaning up, but it was quite scary, really scary. [Pause] Our - we would try and get to work, or go down to – we would have bicycles a lot of us. I took my own bike to camp so that I could cycle home if I wanted to, although I preferred to take the bus – was easier.
HH: But did you use your bicycle around the camp?
BT: Yes. No, no we couldn’t cycle around our camp, we were at a big house, and all we had was a big driveway.
HH: Okay so you didn’t need to.
BT: We had… huts, the stables where we slept, and we had to come out and go to the bathrooms and bath huts and stuff there and then another hut was for our meals. Our canteen was at the other place, because we used to have to cycle through the village back to where we worked. The men were lucky, they were able to have lodgings and they had a landlady that would fix them meals and they would have lovely hot dinners when they got home at night and we had to go to the cook house. We had a cook house. But at the end of the war things began to happen a bit more – towards to end of the war, when the prisoners of war from Germany were coming back home we were, they, we were asked to go and volunteer to welcome the prisoners coming back, which was rather good.
HH: And where was that?
BT: That was at Wing I believe – I’m sure it was Wing although no place ever had a sign on it so we never knew where we were really. I think, from what I could work out, that it was Wing, and they were [pause] quite, quite a sad looking lot coming home but so thrilled to be coming home. And I always remember this one boy asked our girl that was our telephonist – one of our telephonist girls – if, um, he would call – if she would call his mother on this number and he gave her, and she said ‘yes I’ll do that for you’, so, when we got back to camp, she was doing some work there, and she phoned this number, and it was the mother that answered the phone, and she said ‘John would be seeing you in a couple of days’, and it was just the noise and um, a man came on then, and this man said ‘who is this?’ and she said ‘well I’m LACW’ so-and-so, what her name was, ‘I’m just telling you that your son will be home in a couple of days, probably, they have to go to a, a centre first for certain things’ - he said ‘well I hope you know what you’re talking about, because we’ve already been told that our son is missing, believed dead – believe killed’, and he was – well, we all cried. I think about it now and I cry a little bit. Yeah, so, um -
HH: That’s one story that at least had that happy ending.
BT: Yes, I know – I won a book once for writing that story out because I said I’ll never forget it. I said a lot of things I do forget, and a lot of things I think I imagine, ‘oh I couldn’t have done that, surely I couldn’t have done that’ sort of thing, ‘I wouldn’t tell anybody that I’m not going to say’ – and, but, I know that was true, because it, it caused such a – the rest of us in, at the cook house – we were all sitting around the table then when she was telling us about it, and we were all [emphasis] practically in tears. But I wonder how many times that happened, you know, I’m sure it must have happened lots of times, I’ve heard of it since actually happening. On this, “Next Generation”, or that “Last Generation”, the programmes that they’ve had – I’ve loved that series I’ve been watching it and I think ‘good on you!’ [laughs] you know, and they’re still going strong, it’s lovely.
HH: Betty what rank did you attain -
BT: LACW
HH: - in the WAAFs?
BT: Leading Aircraftwoman. So I started off as an AC2 and then an AC1, and then an LACW. Yeah. But um, I don’t know that I deserved it – maybe I did [laughs]
HH: I’m sure you did.
BT: I don’t know. I have my pay book still, and it said I was a keen and willing wireless operator, ‘very efficient’ it says [laughter] so –
HH: Well done.
BT: But it wasn’t any good trying to get a job after the war because [laughs] nobody wanted a wireless operator [laughs], a wireless operator.
HH: It would be good to talk about after the war. I just want to go back and ask you what kind of, what kind of [pause] relationships did you have with other WAAFs? I mean did you form quite a strong bond together?
BT: Oh we did yes, um, and it we were going on leave, one or two of us would go together. In fact, when I went on leave with my friend, she said to me, ‘where shall we go for our leave? When’s yours coming up?’, I said ‘mine is coming up on so-and-so’ – ‘so is mine’ she said, ‘let’s go a long way away’, because we would have a free travel warrant, so, I said ‘ok, well where will we go?’, she said ‘let’s go to Edinburgh’, I said ‘that’s a good idea, let’s go to Edinburgh, and we got on the train, and we had a wonderful journey. It was all the forces in the train, and she was a comedian anyway, and she had the place in stiches, it was hilarious [laughs] that whole trip was funny. And we went to the YMCA, YWCA I should say, and booked in, and we put our money in their safe, as they have, and when you go out you just take a certain amount of money with you. This parti – the f – second night I believe we were there, we decided to go to the Cavendish Ballroom, we were going to go to a dance, okay, so we bought our tickets to go in but when we got inside we realised we hadn’t taken enough – to buy our tea, that, or drink or whatever we wanted, and I said well it’s not far from where we’re, you know where we’re staying, ‘I’ll get the trolley, car’ or whatever it was at that time, and ‘I’ll go back and I’ll get us some more money’. ‘Okay’ says my friend, and when I got back to the Cavendish ballroom, there she was, sitting with a couple of Americans. And I said ‘oh, hi’, she said ‘this is so-and-so and this is so-and-so – I told him you like to dance because he likes to dance too’ [laughs], so I said ‘oh alright, I’ll dance with him’, and we not only danced with them, we spent, um, our days, because they were on furlough as well, and we were on furlough, or ‘leave’ as we call it, ‘furlough’ as they call it. And that whole week we spent going to pictures, but Sunday was a very miserable sort of day in Scotland –
HH: Still is in Scotland!
BT: [laughs] we had so many cups of tea, we were, we, we just floated, and we went to the zoo, and we went to, oh I don’t - I can’t remember where we went, but we went to the dancing again, we went, and when I got home back to camp, my friend that I had met in Scotland phoned me and asked me to meet him in London when I was next off. So I said ‘alright’ and we met a few times, and I brought him home to meet mum and dad, and he was in the Eighth Airforce – the American Eighth Airforce –
HH: Eighth in the East!
BT: And, um, we met quite a few times, and then one night the phone rang, I answered it, and – no, I was told, there’s a - you’re wanted on the phone, so I answered it and it was Fred and he said ‘hi Betty, we’re gonna go home, we’ve gotta get ready for the Far East’ because the Japanese were still fighting, of course, and he said ‘but, I want you to marry me before I go – will you marry me?’, and there was a – this is - I don’t like to say this because it makes me feel so stupid – there was an ITMA show on, and the saying was ‘ee, I’ll ‘ave to ask me dad’ in a Northern accent [laughing] and I thought he was kidding me, and that’s what I said [laughing]. Well he didn’t listen to our shows of course, he’d be listening to Jack Benny or Bob Hope or something, and he said ‘well okay then’ [laughing] ‘okay Betty, you ask your dad’ [laughing] ‘if he says, if he says yes’ [laughing]. So anyway I asked my dad and he said ‘no I don’t think that’s a good idea, I think you should just get engaged’, so the next night when Fred called me I said ‘no dad says I can’t get married, but we could get engaged’. ‘No’ he said, ‘I don’t wanna leave this country ‘til I’m – ‘til you’re with me, and you’re married to me’, so [laughing] I said ‘oh alright then, where – ‘ [laughing] how silly now I think about [laughing] so silly, and I, so I said ‘oh well alright then, when?’. Well this was just after VE Day, he said ‘June the 9th’ [pause] I said ‘gosh that’s, that’s awfully quickly, I don’t know if I can do that, because’ I said ‘you do a lot of investigating of girls and I’d have to go through that and that takes a long time’. ‘No’ he said, ‘it’s alright because my, my commanding officer is a, married to a WAAF and he knows what to do and he can just go straight through to your WAAF officer and he will know exactly your character’ etcetera, etcetera, and, um, ‘there’ll be no problem’. So I said ‘ohh, okay, June the 9th it is’, he said ‘besides it’s my birthday and [laughing, unclear] on my birthday’, so, that’s what happened.
HH: So where did you get married?
BT: In Saint Mary’s church, in the local church in, in Aylesbury, and we had neighbours helping us, and my c-, my warrant officer, he, uh, booked a hotel in London for a couple of nights, and we had all sorts of volunteers for sandwiches because it was very difficult [emphasis] to get things, and the girl across the road, was a Belgian girl married to a British tommy, and she had come over and she was the same size as me. She still had her, her wedding gown, and she said ‘you can borrow my wedding dress’, I said ‘well I want to be married in uniform’ – my father wouldn’t let me, but I wanted to be married, but he said ‘no you’re not, you only get married once and I want you to be married in white’ so –
HH: You were married in white.
BT: - I was married in white, yup. And we had a nice, quite a nice wedding and reception at mummy’s house. We were squashed but it was alright, we had fun. But then, we went on the train, to London to the hotel that my warrant officer had booked for us. As a matter of fact he sat in the same carriage as us, and my husband said he was quite upset, he kept staring at me like, staring at him, like ‘you’d better look after that girl’ [laughs]. Oh well, yes.
HH: And then did he depart soon after that for the Far East?
BT: Yes, yes, about, about two weeks. No - I don’t know that it was two weeks, it could have been – it could have been less, I don’t know, but it was a quick, quick time. I know I met him a couple of times in Norwich because he was going, and I went up there quickly to see him before, before he left, and that was it and I didn’t see him again until the following February.
HH: And what happened then?
BT: Well, what happened then? I went over on the Queen Mary, I went down to um, what was the name of the place… was it Innsworth? Think it was Innsworth, for about four or five days, waiting to go on the boat, and they did an FFI (Free From Infection, as you know) with everybody, and those of us who were in the We- couldn’t give a darn about that we were used to that monthly you know, but some of these poor girls had never had anything like that done to them and, they didn’t like it at all, and some of them had babies. But, um, we got on the Queen Mary and so many days later we arrived in New York, and I had said to my husband, ‘if you’re not in New York to meet me, I’m not going to get – I’m going to get a boat back, I’ve got enough money, I’m going to get a boat back’, and he said ‘well I’ve been called up to go to spring training down to Texas because he was with, being picked for the Dodgers, Pat Derry [?] had signed him up for spring training to see, along with many others, I might add – because he played baseball here with the American Air Force, and he said ‘so I don’t know if I can’, I said ‘well if you’re not there I’m not, I’m going, going home’, so anyway he said he would be there no matter what. So I wasn’t ever really sure. And then they were calling over the tannoy ‘would Betty Ethel Turner please come to dockside’, well my name isn’t Betty Ethel Turner, it’s Betty May Turner, and we were in alphabetical order in this cabin – we even had a Major Turnipseed’s [?] wife, in there [unclear, laughs], anyway, um, we all helped Betty Ethel Turner get things in her case, but she wasn’t expecting to go, they were going to take the girls that weren’t being met to their own organisations, and anyway - so I, and I was a bit disappointed when Betty Ethel went, but anyway about ten minutes later they called out ‘will Betty May [emphasis] Turner please report to dockside’ and everybody helps me get all my stuff together. So I’m walking down the gangplank, and here’s poor Betty Ethel Turner coming back with her bag – ‘they tried to give me to your husband’ [laughing], I can’t tell you how he said [pause] but he said ‘that is not my wife!’ and he [unclear, laughing, possibly ‘worried him to death’].
HH: So you were reunited – you were reunited?
BT: So he was very relieved when I came down the pla – in fact he jumped the barrier, he shouldn’t have done of course but he did. And they all looked so different, they were in zoot suits and those fedora type hats, you know, so [emphasis] different. Yes.
HH: And how long did you spend in the States then?
BT: Twenty-four years.
HH: Where were you living?
BT: Detroit, Michigan.
HH: And how did, how did you feel about leaving and going to live in the States?
BT: I didn’t – I was unhappy leaving my family of course, but really it was excitement for me and if you’ve been away from home living since you were seventeen, I, by that time, well I spent my 21st birthday in the mid-Atlantic, on the Queen Mary, that was my 21st birthday. That’s why I was glad my dad said yes I could get married - well, they didn’t really agree but they agreed to in the end, because they could stop me up to twenty-one, they could have stopped me, if they’d really wanted to. But, I had a good life out there, but he didn’t make, he didn’t make the baseball team and he came back four weeks later, so I, when I went I was totally alone with strangers, and it was, it was strange, but, you know, after, after he came back we lived with his parents while [emphasis] we built our own house in the next block. And then of course I had my girls, and I belonged to the Daughters of the British Empire out there, which is an organisation as, as you probably know, and um, and then it all sort of went – mmm, after twenty four years I suppose it would have been, I, in nine- in the year before I bought him a set of golf clubs for Christmas [laughs], which I never should have done I suppose really, I never saw him again he was on the golf course – well that’s just a, a, you know , a thumbnail story.
HH: So you just came back, you just decided to come back?
BT: Well Donna had come back here, my oldest daughter, we sent her over to see nan and grandad as a, as a graduation present when she was eighteen, now she was older than I was when I left home, oh, when I left home the first time, and so it seemed ok but I did miss her terribly. And then of course this one was going, and one thing and another and I thought [sighs] ‘can’t be doing with this’, and um he, more or less agreed to it of course. He didn’t remarry, I didn’t remarry, I did have a partner for many years, here, but um, after I’d been here a while.
HH: But you’ve done this amazing thing to reassemble your family near Aylesbury.
BT: Well, part of it, yes. But it w – my mother was dead against divorce, they thought it was terrible my getting a divorce, but my mother was ill for a while and I would go over every day, take her a – do the house cleaning and, and look after her, and when she went into hospital she didn’t come out again – she was ninety-odd mind you, ninety, ‘bout ninety-four actually I figured. And um, then my father, and she said to me ‘everything happens for the best you know, because’ she said ‘what would we have done’. And then of course dad became ill, and I had him here for two years before he went to hospital for only just a few days and died, and he was ninety-seven when he died.
HH: So you’ve got longevity in your family.
BT: Well, I, I don’t know I don’t think so – well, so far it’s been long, but, I do have, um, I do have cancer. So I, you know, you never know do you? No.
HH: But it’s been in more recent years, Betty, that you have taken to producing these really very beautiful artworks about your memories of the WAAF – tell us about that.
BT: Well, well, when you’re alone more than anything – because I really didn’t start, um, well, Terry wa – did I do it while Terry was alive?
SM: Not so much.
BT: Not a lot, did I? I would – I know, it was a Christmas, he said ‘what d’you want for Christmas?’ and I said ‘I really would love some watercolours for Christmas’, and I’ve got a box of watercolours that he bought me for Christmas, with brushes, and I started, and I didn’t do very much at first, not at first, and then I – he was poorly, and I nursed him for about six years before he died, and all that time that he was poorly, I was able to sit and do my painting and stuff. And I did a lot of it then, quite a lot of it, and then after he died, and he’s been gone six years – so it’s been about twelve years that I’ve done the painting.
HH: And now, you could’ve chosen all kinds of subjects to paint, but you chose something quite specific, why?
BT: I chose, because I could see them. I could see the girls that I’ve painted. I would get, I would get a book and look at some, one or two, that I’ve painted with a plane in it possibly I’ve had to copy, because I wasn’t on an aerodrome, and they were, and I wanted to recognise them as well, you know, but others I’ve just remembered when we were, for instance, cleaning our, cleaning our irons in the dirty – everybody says we had lovely hot water, we never [emphasis] had lovely hot water, by the re- time the rest of us were coming out of the cook house that water would be ho-, warm, lukewarm and greasy, the grease would be floating on the top, but we still had to rinse them you know. What else would we do? Well we had, nowhere to, nowhere to wash the [unclear], anyway – and so that’s where I’ve done most of my art. Or if somebody call– once or twice somebody’s called up ‘Betty would you do one with so-and-so’, um, ‘I’d like one, I’d like a birthday card for my, for my mother, she’s going to be ninety’ or something ‘and I want - and she was in the WAAF and I want you to do a postcard or a birthday card for her’, so I would do one, one of those, and te- and Shelley my daughter, bless her, she copies them, well not copies them, yes she’s got a copier, and I, so I try and keep the originals and the copies, and the copies go. And that’s what the Association does when I do a card, I send them a copy and they keep it.
HH: In your view, do you think that the WAAFs have received the recognition that they deserve in the years since World War 2, for what they did?
BT: Absolutely not, no, that’s a - that’s a real sore point with me. I could go into the town for Memorial Day and the men, the - ‘come on, come on, let’s line up’, and then I’m there, and I even have my tie and my blue shirt and my blazer with a, with my medal even, but they w-, they wouldn’t bring me to the front. The men come to the front, and you, you know, sort of thing, but it’s like that all the time. And the memorial in London, well. Those coats on a hook. I haven’t seen it, I’ve seen it in a photograph, but I haven’t – I don’t go up to London, I’m not in a fit state to go up to London really, I s’pose I could go, I could persevere and go, make up my mind I’m going, I would love to see the Bomber Command memorial thing up there, I think that must be wonderful – but it’s just the bomber boys isn’t it, the boys that flew, who were absolutely wonderful I think, but everybody else behind those boys were wonderful too, weren’t they?
Other: Indeed.
BT: And everybody - I go to museums and it’s all planes and where are the WAAF? They were there. But you don’t get any recognition at all. Very seldom anyway. The films – you see films of the boys and the planes, but very few WAAF. It might be a love story so they have to put a WAAF in it.
HH: I was going to say -
BT: And she’s an officer’s [unclear] –
HH: - it seems to me that that seems, you know, if you look at, films and things since the war that’s been the way in which WAAFs have tended to be portrayed is as partners or as the love interest rather than as, you know, serious participants in the war effort.
BT: Yes. That’s right, yes, yes. That’s right.
SM: Can I say something here? The one thing that I notice going to the WAAF reunions is the amazing variety of jobs that they had, that the WAAF had during the war. The engine fitters, the plane deliverers, there are so many other things that they did that were men’s jobs, and these little ladies who looked as though they couldn’t blow a feather away, were just fantastic. I was just full of admiration for them, and that isn’t recognised enough.
BT: That’s right. That one woman that we were talking – one lady that sat next to you – what did she do, Shelley?
SM: She was a Stirling engine fitter.
BT: A Stirling engine fitter.
Shelly: And she was four-foot-nothing.
BT: [laughing] Now she’s a four-foot-nothing.
HH: Do you think that that started during the war though? In the sense that there was a certain ambiguity to the role that women were playing, I mean, it was obviously a necessary role to release um, men to take part in front line duty, and especially in Bomber Command with the attrition rate being quite high, um, but there was still nevertheless an ambivalence as to whether women should be playing that role.
BT: Oh yes, oh yes.
HH: Did you feel that, that at the time?
BT: Where I was stationed, not so much, because there were quite a few WAAF there and the men, they would not be on the set as much as we would be, but they would be charging the batteries and all sorts of things like that you know, and you – the men that were there a lot of times were photographers and guards, that – we would be teased, as WAAF, I mean they would say ‘go fetch something’ and it wasn’t there or it- ‘what the heck do you want’ you know, no, you got used to that sort of thing. Or if they had a joke, oh, ‘tell Betty, she’ll laugh’, you know, and I’d laugh but I wouldn’t know what they were talking about sometimes, hadn’t a clue [laughs], very innocent, sort of, you know, but um, it was – but I’ve noticed it a lot more since the last, oh I don’t know, I don’t think when I was in the states that it ever came up, because they didn’t know what WAAF were in the – I did have some friends that were in the WAAF though that married Americans, ‘cause we had this club where quite a few English girls and quite a few of them were in the WAAF, or several of them were in the WAAF anyway, because they were working with Americans some of them, on camp, and they, they were closely working with them and became friendly, very friendly, some of them. But on the whole it was since I’ve been here I notice the, the, sort of - Oh, if I told people, and I don’t do it very often, I’ve done it more lately than I ever have in my life, I’ve said I was in the WAAF and they say ‘oh were you? What did you do?’ and I’d tell them, ‘oooh’, you know, the minute you mention Bletchley Park that’s the only way you’ll get any notice, because that’s had publicity, and, you know, that sort of thing. I don’t know. But I do wish we had – on one of my friends, as a matter of fact my best friend, Jane, she thought that we’ve got to have a memorial up at the Arboretum, we’ve got to have something, and she started, and she planned it, and it was taken out of her hands by a few people in the Association, and her village, and it was built not the way she wanted it to be built, and she was warned that it wouldn’t last this particular way these people were going to do it, and it just broke her heart and even now we’ve got to spend a lot of money now getting it cleaned up and straightened up the way – actually, it would be better to take it down and start all over again, the way Jane wanted it done, it’s been so sad and we’re spending too much money on it, keeping it clean. And one thing and another, and that’s the only one we’ve got, that I know of, there, and that’s at the Arboretum, up your way, isn’t it?
HH: It’s Staffordshire isn’t it? Alrewas.
BT: Yeah. It’s quite a lovely place, but terribly disappointing that particular – so it’s good to have something, isn’t it?
HH: And I hope, very much, that you will approve of what we plan to do in terms of commemorating the WAAFs’ contribution in the new Bomber Command centre.
BT: I hope so. And I wish you the very best of luck in getting it done. I know that I won’t be alive to see it, but I shall hope that my family will go and see it.
HH: Well Betty thank you very much for that interview [telephone rings]
BT: Oh sorry, I’ll turn it -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Betty Turner
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Great Britain. Women's Auxiliary Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Betty Turner served in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force with Bomber Command at 92 Group Headquarters, Winslow, and later at RAF Great Massingham, reaching the rank of leading aircraftswoman. She recounts living in chilly stables, being quite bored by Morse code, and the life-long bond that was forged between her and other Women’s Auxiliary Air Force members. She married an American whom she met during the war and they lived together in the United States for 24 years. After their divorce she settled close to her family in Aylesbury in the United Kingdom, where she had grown up. Betty Turner has been painting images from her days in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force for twelve years because the memories of her service remain so vivid; some have been used for the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force Association annual Christmas card.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Heather Hughes
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Christina Brown
Heather Hughes
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:50:39 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATurnerB150602
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Norfolk
United States
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
arts and crafts
entertainment
ground personnel
love and romance
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Great Massingham
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/53/416/EBoldyDABoldyAD[Date]-020001.jpg
6080432f497cd12e3f75168fb3113e06
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/53/416/EBoldyDABoldyAD[Date]-020002.jpg
c2656e75ffd94b4b1f86adb1d22046d5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Boldy, David
Dave Boldy
D A Boldy
Description
An account of the resource
334 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant David Adrian Boldy (1918 – 1942, 923995 Royal Air Force) and consists of his school reports, letters from school and photographs of family and locations in India, letters from training and service, and photographs from his social life and time training. It also includes newspaper cuttings and letters about him being missing in action. David Boldy was born and attended school in India and studied law at Kings College London. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force and trained as an air gunner in South Africa. He flew operations in Manchesters and Lancasters with 207 Squadron from RAF Bottesford. His aircraft failed to return from an operation to Gdańsk 11 July 1942. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by David Boldy and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.<br /><br />Additional information on David Boldy is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/102182/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Boldy, DA
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] [deleted] R.A.F Torquay. [/deleted] [underlined]
from Boldy.
59, Bathurst Mews.
Lancaster Gate,
London. W. 2.
My darling Dad,
Mum tells me that she has sent several of my letters to her on to you so you can regard them as written to you as well.
I am getting on very well here & rather enjoying life. Now and again we get rather fed up with the petty red tape in existence but otherwise it is a fine life. I have now been in the R.A.F. ten weeks. Each pay day - & every other Friday - we beat up the town & frequent the local taverns. We have some good fun. I have joined a Tennis club behind our billet - & have had some rather good tennis. I played in the Squadron Singles tournament & was beaten in the first round 2-6, 4-6. I led 4-1 in the [deleted] L [/deleted] second set. The
[page break]
court was asphalt and I just cannot play on it. There is nothing like a game on lawn.
Last week-end I managed to get home. I arrived on Saturday 10 p.m. and had to leave Sunday 4pm. Still it was worth it despite the short time. I had a very nice weekend. Steve had come in from Harefield brought a fellow student. Mum treated me royally. I may be able to go up again pretty soon.
We have done a lot of bathing [deleted] p [/deleted] P.T. here and every one I met in London remarked on how fit and tanned I was looking.
The subject’s [sic] we have studied lately are, Maths, Armaments – guns on the planes –, Navigation and Signals – Morse Code – I can do 4 words per min. The requisite amount being 6.
No more at the moment.
God bless you.
[underlined] Love Dave. [/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Description
An account of the resource
Letter from Sergeant David Boldy to his father, regarding his initial training and visiting his mother at home.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Boldy
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Correspondence
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EBoldyDABoldyAD[Date]-02
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-08
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from David Boldy to his father
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
England--Devon
Great Britain
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Karl Williams
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Torquay
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/53/503/EBoldyDABoldyAD400617-0001.2.jpg
a26dc23e53e553bd7615fe63958c589a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/53/503/EBoldyDABoldyAD400617-0002.2.jpg
7cc318cee3b9bfa2f7745f2434818ee5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Boldy, David
Dave Boldy
D A Boldy
Description
An account of the resource
334 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant David Adrian Boldy (1918 – 1942, 923995 Royal Air Force) and consists of his school reports, letters from school and photographs of family and locations in India, letters from training and service, and photographs from his social life and time training. It also includes newspaper cuttings and letters about him being missing in action. David Boldy was born and attended school in India and studied law at Kings College London. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force and trained as an air gunner in South Africa. He flew operations in Manchesters and Lancasters with 207 Squadron from RAF Bottesford. His aircraft failed to return from an operation to Gdańsk 11 July 1942. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by David Boldy and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.<br /><br />Additional information on David Boldy is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/102182/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Boldy, DA
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[inserted in different hand] Boldy.
59, Bathurst Mews,
Lancaster Gate,
London, W.2. [/ inserted in different hand]
R.A.F. [deleted] Hastings [/deleted]
17th June. 1940.
My darling Dad,
Thanks for your letter and all your news. Many happy returns [deleted] of [/deleted] for your birthday. God bless & keep you for us.
Mum Tells[sic] me that there will be no more Air Mails; it is a pity but under present circumstances there is no help for it.
We lest Scotland on Tuesday and arrived in Hastings next day. As we went via London & had a couple of hours spare I popped home for breakfast. Both Mum & Steve were very surprised. We are in Billets at the moment bang on the sea [deleted] front [/deleted] front. It is rather pleasant. We have a terrific amount of work to do. In the mornings instead of P.T. I go for an early morning dip, which is very enjoyable & certainly wakes me up. we then have breakfast. After this a couple of parades, P.T. and the lectures after which we are free.
[page break]
The days end at 5 or 6. We can then go out but must be by our beds by 10 and lights go out at 10.15
The other day there was a Maths grading list, - all people of the same standard to be put in groups so as to make Teaching[sic] easier. I got 100% as the paper was quite simple. We are also to study navigation in a short Time[sic] & the morse code to-day. It should be rather interesting.
I am off to lunch and will complete this letter after it.
Have done some Maths and the morse code. The latter requires quite a bit of concentration. I am now on orderly duty for 24 hrs. – duties to put lights out etc.
The military situation is Terrible[sic]. God help the French. I hope we fight on, whatever the odds are. If the other Democracies or what is left of them don’t come in they will deserve all they will get later – No more To-day. God bless you.
Love [underlined] Dave. [/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from David Boldy to his father
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Description
An account of the resource
Letter from David Boldy to his father about his daily activities after leaving Scotland for Hastings, and visiting his mother and Steve whilst passing through London. He comments the current military situation.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Boldy
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1940-06-17
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Correspondence
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EBoldyDABoldyAD400617
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Scotland
England--Hastings
England--Sussex
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-06
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Baldwin
military living conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/53/511/EBoldyDABoldyAD410515.1.pdf
6128147542dd99812f01128274fc9180
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Boldy, David
Dave Boldy
D A Boldy
Description
An account of the resource
334 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant David Adrian Boldy (1918 – 1942, 923995 Royal Air Force) and consists of his school reports, letters from school and photographs of family and locations in India, letters from training and service, and photographs from his social life and time training. It also includes newspaper cuttings and letters about him being missing in action. David Boldy was born and attended school in India and studied law at Kings College London. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force and trained as an air gunner in South Africa. He flew operations in Manchesters and Lancasters with 207 Squadron from RAF Bottesford. His aircraft failed to return from an operation to Gdańsk 11 July 1942. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by David Boldy and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.<br /><br />Additional information on David Boldy is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/102182/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Boldy, DA
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
923995 LAC D.A.BOLDY.
No 41 AIR SCHOOL.
EAST LONDON.
15th May. 1941.
My darling Dad,
Thanks ever so much for your letter. I am so pleased to hear you liked the wallet. It has not only sentimental value as a present but also value as a S. African Curio.
You should find the Lewis gun most interesting & find fun to fire.
At long last I am a fully trained man. I feel very proud with my Brevet up – the gunners half-wing with A.G. in front. You will see what it looks like from a photograph I shall send shortly. It really feels good being fully qualified. All of us passed thank goodness & our friends in East London are very pleased. Thanks for the cable congratulating me. Also for sending the cash. It was sweet of you Dad.
[page break]
Now that the course is done with we are having a rollicking time. The S. African boys have gone on to their new station but the six of us have remained here, at the moment free of all duties.
I did very well in morse code. The six R.A.F. only had to receive morse at Ten words per minute. I decided to have a shot with the S. African boys. I got 100% at Ten words per minute& 95 1/2% at eighteen words per minute. Not bad considering we only did at the most [deleted] ei [/deleted] six to eight words at home.
We had a qualifying course binge. All the officers turned up and we got cracking. By the end of the evening we were all quite tight. We had some fun, breaking into the officers mess at 4 in the morning & then being tipped out of bed at 5 by some of the fellows including the officer in charge of us. He is one of the whitest men I ever met.
[page break]
[underlined] 2 [/underlined]
There were speeches at the party. I was asked to speak on behalf of the six R.A.F. attached to the course. My speech was short & sweet. Mentioning we did not think much of them at first but having got to know them were damn sorry to be separated from them. It went down well. They are a damn fine crowd of blokes & I was genuinely sorry to be parting from them as we made some good friends.
At the moment I am just about completing a week’s local leave. A friend in town has put me up – He (Desmond) is a grand chap. He has a small sports car which is at my disposal whenever he is not using it. As he goes out with my girls sister it amounts to almost all the time. He has really been damn decent to me. You should see me shooting around in his sports car, its great fun. I have just had the
[page break]
most terrific week. Desmond has six months leave from the Army for business reasons. All his friends (a fine crowd of fellows) are down here on leave & we have been hitting the high spots. – In a big way too. – We are only young once This is properly[sic] the last chance I will get of dashing around as we should be in action before very long so I am making the most of my time. I have a lovely little girl friend here. We have had two terrific quarrels but otherwise we have got on very well indeed. I shall send you a photo of her shortly.
Desmond & my programme at the moment is as follows. Five sets of Tennis every morning a quiet afternoon & then out with our girl friends in the evening. In the evening we usually go to a dance or for a drink somewhere. The S. Africans have really given us a square deal
[page break]
[underlined] 3 [/underlined]
both as regards work & play. This girl friend of mine is really lovely Dad. I am sure you would like her. She is the second girl I have liked in this country. That is nearly [deleted] [indecipherable] [/deleted] 8 months. Not too bad considering we have been to four places. I am very particular these days.
The other morning I played golf for the second time. I was helped this time & got on famously. It is amazing what a difference it makes if someone tells you what to do.
Some of the photographs I have taken really are wizard. A number of them are exposures taken at night. They are incredibly good. I shall send you some as soon as possible.
I get on very well with some of Desmonds friends who are
[page break]
down here this week. They take me swimming & all over the place. Some of the parties we have had have been really grand fun.
My girl friends’ name is baby & we do awfully well together at dancing. You ought to see us.
At the moment we are awaiting posting. If you don’t hear from me for some time you will know I am on the move again. It’s funny I hate moving once I get settled in a place but one gets used to anything these days.
The weather has been ideal. Perfect for Tennis, golf & swimming. These latter keep me fit dispite the late nights.
No more to-day, Dad darling. I will write again in a couple of days & try & send some snaps.
God bless you. Lots of love
from your ever loving son
Dave.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Description
An account of the resource
Letter from Leading Aircraftsman David Boldy to his father about becoming a qualified air gunner, his celebrations on qualifying and now he and the five others are awaiting posting, so he is spending some time with his friends and his girlfriend Baby.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Boldy
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1941-05-15
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Six page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Correspondence
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EBoldyDABoldyAD410515
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
South Africa
South Africa--East London
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from David Boldy to his father
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Baldwin
Andy Hamilton
Angus Bustin
air gunner
aircrew
love and romance
military living conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/53/676/EBoldyDABoldyLM400619.1.pdf
24704f851597f9c450de1931a7e7b613
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Boldy, David
Dave Boldy
D A Boldy
Description
An account of the resource
334 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant David Adrian Boldy (1918 – 1942, 923995 Royal Air Force) and consists of his school reports, letters from school and photographs of family and locations in India, letters from training and service, and photographs from his social life and time training. It also includes newspaper cuttings and letters about him being missing in action. David Boldy was born and attended school in India and studied law at Kings College London. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force and trained as an air gunner in South Africa. He flew operations in Manchesters and Lancasters with 207 Squadron from RAF Bottesford. His aircraft failed to return from an operation to Gdańsk 11 July 1942. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by David Boldy and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.<br /><br />Additional information on David Boldy is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/102182/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Boldy, DA
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[inserted] from Boldy
59 Bathurst Mews,
Lancaster Gale,
London. W.2. [/inserted]
[deleted] R.A.F.
St. Leonards [/deleted]
19 [underlined] th [/underlined] June.
My darling Mum & Steve,
Many thanks for Steve’s letter recd [sic] to-day. I wrote yesterday but forgot to post the letter as Cecil came dashing in about 7.30 so I am enclosing this.
Glad to hear Steve enjoyed the Tennis. It is a pity I shan’t be able to see Peter for a Time. I shall drop him a line when I have some Time to spare. Up the L.D.V.V’s. I hope we give them Hell. I have just had Winstons speech. It’s smashing He’s a great fellow there is no getting away from it.
The situation is certainly very bad, but one never can tell we may yet give Hitler & Mussolini something to think about. We were woken up by the sirens at 12.30 last night. The All clear was given after half an hour. They got a lot uapsin [sic]
[page break]
allright [sic]. We didn’t hear anything at all. I was woken up by Ajan & one had to scramble down over 100 steps in the dark. I would not have woken up if Ajan hadn’t got on to me.
Last evening Cecil (his friend Bill) [deleted] RJ [/deleted] Ajan & I went out for a bit. We had a couple of drinks and a meal. On Thursday we are going to a Bing Crosby Film.
This afternoon instead of parades etc. we had organised games. I played Tennis – one set – we won 6-5. The balls were Terrible, so was the Court & the wind was still worse. Still I quite enjoyed myself.
I heard to-day we are definitely moving. Where or when I am not yet sure. You can carry on writing however as they will forward the mail. Don’t bother to get the
[page break]
[underlined] 2. [/underlined]
pyjamas just yet (I think the size is 34”) anyway I am having a bath to-day + will begin using the silk pair I have, which I have not used yet. I only want one pair from Selfridges.
We did Maths & Morse to-day. I like Morse, though I shall have to get down to it & learn the alphabet properly. We are all so tired at this end of the day that we just haven’t the energy to look at [deleted] the [/deleted] a thing.
By the look of things most of us will be up at night in the Air Raid shelters Anyway we had no P.T. this morning due to the raids. Poor old Dad must be Terribly worried.
The weather here on the whole has been very disappointing we have had only a couple of
[page break]
sunny days.
While waiting to go on parade to-day we amused ourselves by watches some belles bathing on the beach. One had a Terrific Tan. She was like a Red Indian. Tan girls were O.K. too.
I got my second pair of boots the other day. They are smashing. Very neat and the leather is like Kidd [sic], also they have a rubber back, the present pair is almost in ruins.
No more to-day, God bless you both.
[underlined] Love Dave. [/underlined]
P.S. 8 th July.
I am sending these letters by ordinary mail having sent the latest by air mail. They are such delightful, spontaneous, happy affairs that they are worth reading & keeping. Please keep them. Together in one of the drawers in my cupboard with their school boy things. Will send more later. Love Dave
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Letter from David Boldy to his mother and brother. States his opinion on the latest Churchill’s speech; writes about his evening out with his friends and going to see a Bing Crosby film. He also writes doing Morse code and maths and about having no physical training due to the air raids.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Boldy
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1940-07-08
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Four page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Correspondence
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EBoldyDABoldyLM400619
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-07
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anita Raine
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from David Boldy to his mother and brother
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
bombing
entertainment
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/87/849/PWoolgarRLA1609.2.jpg
266bfad936f1e61d06ddd6a4c47451b7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Woolgar, Reg
Reg Woolgar
R L A Woolgar
Jimmy Woolgar
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
<a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?collection=87">17 items</a>. The collection consists of an oral history <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/2148">interview</a> with air gunner Reginald Woolgar DFC (139398 Royal Air Force), correspondence to his father about him being missing in action and subsequently rescued from the sea, his <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/2205">log book</a>, <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/854">service and release book</a> and nine photographs.<br /><br /> He flew operations as an air gunner with 49 and 192 Squadrons.<br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Woolgar and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle. <br /><br />This collection also contains items concerning John William Wilkinson. Additional information on John William Wilkinson is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/125319/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Woolgar, R
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Please scroll down to see all X items in this collection.
Reg ‘Jimmy’ Woolgar was born and schooled in Hove. He began working life as a valuations assistant and was training to be a surveyor, which was interrupted when, in December 1939, he joined the RAF. Although he had aspirations to become a pilot, he trained as a wireless operator/air gunner instead. His wireless operator training was carried out at the wireless training school, RAF Yatesbury. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/87/849/PWoolgarRLA1609.2.jpg His air gunnery training on Fairy Battle aircraft was conducted at RAF West Freugh. On 15 November 1940 he was promoted to sergeant and posted to No 10 OTU at RAF Upper Heyford. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/87/845/PWoolgarRLA1601.2.jpg Initially flying Anson aircraft and then Hampdens with C Flight, he had his first ‘Lucky Jim’ moment, on 6 February 1941, when his Hampden aircraft was forced to crash land in a field near Cottesmore, in Lincolnshire. The aircraft was written off, but he and the pilot survived with minor injuries. At the end of operational training, instead of going directly onto operasations, he spent the next 5 months as a screen operator instructor. Eventually, on 1 September 1941, he was posted to 49 Squadron, Hampdens, at RAF Scampton https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/852 where his very first operational trip (described as a baptism of fire) was to Berlin. With headwinds going out and coming back, and nil visibility, it was likely the crew would have to bail out. Fortunately, the skipper found a break in the clouds and the aircraft landed wheels down in a field near Louth. The aircraft had to be recovered back to base, transported by road, on a low loader. On another occasion, on a mine laying operation to Oslo Fjord, his aircraft was peppered with anti-aircraft fire, it returned to base with 36 bullet holes in the fuselage and mainplane. A bullet had also passed through the upright of his gun sight while he was looking through it, whilst another tore through his flying suit. The nickname ‘Lucky Jim’ was beginning to stick.
In February 1942, on an operation to Manheim, the port engine, hit by flak, cut dead. Despite jettisoning all superfluous weight, which unfortunately included all the navigation equipment, the aircraft rapidly lost height, and the pilot ditched the aircraft in the English Channel. Whilst the crew had struggled to keep the aircraft airborne, (on a single engine), it had steered on a massive curve and unbeknown to them was headed down the English Channel, before it ditched. The crew scrambled out onto the wing and managed to inflate the dingy, then had to cut the cord attaching the dingy to the aircraft using a pair of nail scissors, moments before it sunk. In the water for hours, the crew thought they were drifting near the Yorkshire coast, but were rescued by a motor anti-submarine boat, much to their surprise, near the Isle of Wight.
Operational flying was intense, Reg would feel wound up before take-off and there was much apprehension on the way out to the target. Often, they flew through intense flak that was sometimes so close they could smell it. There was always a sense of sense of relief once they came away from the target. In between operations, each day was treated as it came along with many off-duty hours spent socialising in the local hostelries https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/853
After his first operational tour (he completed two) he was commissioned and became gunnery leader with 192 Squadron in 100 Group.
After the war ended, he signed on for an extra two years and was posted to Palestine as an air movements staff officer. Luck was again on his side when, one day, he was on his way to an Air Priorities Board Meeting at the King David Hotel when the hotel was bombed, resulting in many army and civilian casualties.
After a short tour in Kenya, as Senior Movements Staff Officer, he returned to Palestine flying with 38 Squadron until August 1947. In his flying career he amassed over 1000 flying hours. For services to his country Reg was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/858
He was released from the RAF in September 1947. Initially employed as an assistant valuations officer, he studied to become a Chartered Surveyor and secured a job as a senior valuer with the City of London. He later became the planning valuer of the city. After 14 years he was made a partner at the firm St Quintin Son and Stanley. Reg retired in 1971.
08 December 1939: Joined RAF as a wireless operator/air gunner
28 August 1940: 145, 3 Wing, RAF Yatesbury - Wireless Operator training
29 October 1940 - 15 November 1940: RAF West Freugh, No 4 Bombing and Gunnery School, flying Battle aircraft
November 1940: Promoted to Sergeant
15 November 1940 - 20 August 1941: RAF Upper Heyford, No 10 Operational Training Unit flying Anson and Hampden aircraft
02 September 1941 - 24 March 1942: RAF Scampton, 49 Squadron, flying Hampden aircraft
28 April 1942 - 24 June 1942: 1485 Target Towing and Gunnery Flight flying Whitley and Wellington aircraft
02 July 1942 – 3 July 1942: RAF Manby, Air Gunnery Instructor Course
4 July – 10 July 1942: RAF Scampton, Air Gunnery Instructor flying Manchester and Oxford aircraft
25 July 1942 – 10 August 1942: RAF Wigsley, Air Gunnery Instructor flying Lancaster aircraft
3 October – 27 October 1942: RAF Sutton Bridge flying Wellington and Hampden aircraft
28 October 1942: RAF Sutton Bridge, Gunnery Leader Course
End of 1942: Awarded RAF Commission
09 Nov 1942 – 18 March 1943: RAF Fulbeck flying Manchester aircraft
14 May 1943 – 11 June 1944: RAF Sutton Bridge flying Wellington aircraft
20 June 1944 – 27 July 1945 RAF Foulsham, 192 Squadron flying Halifax and Wellington aircraft
29 April 1946 – 30 August 1946: Palestine, Air Movements Staff Officer
01 September 1946 – 21 January 1947: Kenya, Senior Movements Staff Officer
30 January1947 – 10 June 1947: Ein Shemer, Palestine, 38 Squadron flying Lancaster aircraft
13 July 1947 139398 Flt Lt RLA Woolgar released from Service.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Yatesbury Wireless Training School
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Personnel march between two rows of wooden huts. All men are wearing side caps, carry gas masks and training materials. Captioned 'Wireless Training School, Yatesbury. July, 1940'
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1940-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PWoolgarRLA1609
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
England--Wiltshire
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-07
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Yatesbury
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/110/1154/YBubbGJ1477939v.2.pdf
e15d597d284cb3d2b84eb4cc99fdbbf4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bubb, George
G J Bubb
Description
An account of the resource
13 items. Collection covers the wartime service of Leading Aircraftsman George Joseph Bubb (b. 1911, 1477909 Royal Air Force), an instrument fitter on 44 Squadron. the collection contains notebooks from training courses, a service bible and 1946 diary as well as the contents of a scrapbook which include personal documents and photographs of people and bombing operations.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Dave Pilsworth and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bubb, GJ
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Royal Air Force diary 1946
Description
An account of the resource
Information on all Royal Air Commands, Commonwealth and Allied air forces, the Women's Auxiliary Air Force. Lists and images or aircraft. List of principal engines, technical terms and aircraft instruments. Ranks of services and badges of the Royal Air Force, Glossary of air terms. List of Royal Air Force Victoria Crosses for second world war. List of air records, Morse code and other information. January to December day diary pages with some sporadic entries. Last weeks of December are missing.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Letts Quikref Diaries Ltd
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One book
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Diary
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
YBubbGJ1477939v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1946
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Victoria Cross
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/132/1289/PTempleL1501.1.jpg
ef9ac290edf3a9346f92c6236f7c4df3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/132/1289/ATempleL151027.1.mp3
7e68bfdea2e63e23d0c117e0dcb60971
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Temple, Leslie
Leslie Temple
L Temple
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of one oral history interview and one warrant related to Warrant Officer Leslie Temple (b. 1925, 1893650 Royal Air Force). The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Leslie Temple and catalogued by IBCC staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound. Oral history
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Temple, L
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS: Yes we are, we’re ready to go. Okay, this is, we’re ready to start. The machine’s running I think. Yes okay, so this is Andrew Sadler interviewing Les Temple, Mr. Leslie Temple, at his home in Ilford on Tuesday the 27th of September 2015 for the Bomber Command Archive. Thank you very much for allowing us to interview you Les.
LT: Good.
AS: Can I start by asking you about your date and place of birth?
LT: My birth date is 12th of January 1925 you see. Now I was born in the East End of London, and I had an older – my parents who – my father had come from Poland when he was fourteen and my mother as a young baby when she was born, she came over to England with her mother, and my parents had my brother Arthur. He was four years older than me, Arthur, and he went into the Army. When the war started, he was conscripted into the Army and in 1941 he was sent to France and there lo and behold in France, he was captured and made a prisoner of war. He was a prisoner of war for four years [emphasis] in Germany, and there’s quite a bit of history in his name obviously. But in the meantime, whilst he was away I reached conscription age and living in the East End of London at that particular time – when I was born, I was born and my brother was a bit older [emphasis] than me, so he didn’t sort of used to do the same, same things [laughs] together. He went into the services and then we moved at the beginning of the war to Leyton [emphasis], E10, and from there I was conscripted at the age of eighteen and I was conscripted for the RAF because I had spent four years in the Air Training Core [emphasis]. I was in the Air Training Core, I was conscripted, and in effect I was happy to be going into the RAF and for air, aircrew duties. And I went in initially as a radio operator, wireless operator and in that time, before that time I had been at school in Leyton, E10, at which I was sorted out there because I was always receiving first place in class – and my father was a tailor, and in effect he [laughs] couldn’t afford for me to go on to higher sort of class, school when I reached the age of fourteen and he, I had to go to work. But the fact was, is that I had my school reports there [laughs] of which I have first place in every one, and in that respect the school wanted me to go onto higher school, Leyton County High School, and, but my father I’m afraid in this respect he wasn’t earning much as a tailor and he couldn’t afford for me to go on in school, and I had to go to work. And strangely enough my first job was for the London County Council, Mr. Charles Leyton who I worked for in the office when I left school at the age of fourteen, he was the principle of the London County Council [emphasis]. So he took me into the London County Council and I was worked, worked there for a couple of years. And I found that I couldn’t earn enough to satisfy my parents who it was rather shame that they, you know, things weren’t all that good in those days in the, in the tailoring trade and so on and so forth. So it went on that I found various jobs to improve my mode of being able to live and earn money and I went into the insurance business [emphasis], and I started at a pretty young age in the insurance business, learning the office work and so on and so forth, and then I went into, into the Air Force because the war started and I was taken in as a radio operator, and in effect I had joined the Air Training Core during that period, and I was four years [emphasis] in the Air Training Core, which I did, did quite well, and as you can see here, the history is even in here about me being in the Air Training Core, and they decided it would be good for me to go in as a radio operator into, into the RAF.
AS: Why did you originally go into the Air Training Core, what inspired you?
LT: Well it inspired me because my brother [emphasis] was going to be conscripted in the Army, and I felt that I was capable of handling the things required in the, in the RAF, and I was pretty good at the Morse code and one thing and another in the Air Training Core, and so I applied to, to go into the RAF, and that’s how I was conscripted at that particular time for the RAF. And in effect [paper shuffles] let me see now [continued shuffling, pause]. Ooh, yes [shuffling, pause]. [Reading]: ‘confounding the enemy, the RAF Jewish Special Operators of 101 Squadron, Bomber Command.’ Now in the RAF I was, I did all the examinations and so, learnt the Morse code pretty quickly and so on, and as it got in the book here, [reading]: ‘much of the history of the secret telecommunication of war, against the Germans during the Second World War is still classified and shrouded in mystery, including the radio countermeasures of RAF Squadron 101.’ Now –
AS: So you were in 101?
LT: I was in 101 Squadron you see. Now 101 was a particular – [reading]: ‘it was a great history of the advancement made of telecommunications in the RAF because we were using the special Morse code details for confounding the enemy and also learning what they were transmitting, and we’ – the normal – I went, I went into various [emphasis] stations – I’ll show you, just a moment [pause, papers shuffle]. Well I had it here before, it’s all down here. [Reading]: ‘confounding the enemy in the RAF Jewish [unclear] 101,’ right. Right, my number was 1893650, would you like to make a note [?]. [Pause, continued shuffling].
AS: Good, carry on.
LT: Now, as it says here, [reading]: ‘1893650, Flight Sergeant Leslie Temple, born in 1925 to Jane and Solomon in Stepney, joined the RAF in January 1943 aged eighteen, but has served in the Air Training Core from the age of fourteen. He received initial air training at Bridgnorth in Shropshire, on De Havilland Dominies and Proctors. Radio training at Madley, acclimatisation on B17s at Sculthorpe in Norfolk and a Lancaster Conversion Course at Lindholme in Yorkshire, before being sent as a full flight sergeant aged nineteen to join 101 Squadron.’ I don’t know whether you’ve heard of 101 before, have you?
AS: No, not really.
LT: No, well – [reading]: ‘to join 101 Squadron at Ludford. He’d learnt German at school and spoke fluent Yiddish at home.’ Well you know Yiddish was the language which the foriegn Jews used when they came to London. They couldn’t speak English properly so they were able to speak easily to each other. [Reading]: ‘but the SO work was so secret that they had no idea until he arrived at Ludford,’ – I arrived at Ludford Magna, that was the station that I arrived at. They used to call it not Ludford but Mudford [laughs] it was so, so bad. [Reading]: ‘until he arrived at Ludford why he’d been sent there. He completed thirty missions between 22nd of June against the Reims Marshalling Yard and 28th of October 1944, Cologne.’ So I did my air operations between 22nd of June and 28th of October 1944, on Cologne.[Reading]: ‘other raids from his still prized logbook including Essen, Frankfurt, V1 [?] sites, through concentrations after D-Day, Cahagnes [?], Hamburg and Sholven. Special operators worked intensely on the journeys out and home for several hours, but over the target could only watch. Once the bombers were near the target, it was obvious to the enemy where they were going, so jamming [?] was superfluous.’ When you got near the target you stopped jamming [?] you see, only when you was coming to the target and listening, listening into what the Germans were saying. [Reading]: ‘Leslie Temple explained that the rear gunner in Able ABC Lancasters,’ ABC is you know, Airborne Cigar, that’s ABC – ‘had heavier machine guns than usual because the planes were particularly vulnerable transmitting over enemy bombers.’ Now did you see a thing, Lancaster Bomb, Lancaster Bombers –
AS: Yes.
LT: Ah it’s under, under this book there.
AS: Yeah.
LT: You see now, Lancaster Bombers – the compliment for a crew for a Lancaster was seven, a long was seven. But 101 was the only squadron that had eight [emphasis], and we had eight because we were a special aircrew, squadron which was trans, doing the special operators work, interfering with what the Germans were transmitting to their fighters and so on. Now, the fact that I had a knowledge of the German language , the fact that I had a knowledge of the German language made me that eighth member of the crew, because when I was, when I went to, what’s her name at the beginning, my first squadron at Ludford – I, I had this crew, I joined the crew which I joined because it was time they arrived and I arrived you see, to make up the eighth, eighth member. I did six operations with them, but the skipper, he used to mess about with ladies and so on and so forth, and what happened was he, the crew was disarmed and so on, and taken off [emphasis]. And there was I, left at Ludford without a crew [emphasis]. And I, I had done six operations with them. Well when I was there on my own it was lucky for me that Eric Neilson came in with his crew, and he had seven members of his crew who came to Ludford Magna, to 101, to start operations. So they said to me ‘right, you join him as a special operator.’ Now aircraft in 101, their machine guns were point five. The normal machine gun in a Lancaster and aircraft used by the RAF were 303s. We had heavier machine guns in 101, and it was a wonderful reason that we had [laughs] point fives, because they were very useful on many occasions, and I joined them as a special operator. Now I don’t know whether you know, the Lancaster was converted to a special operation aircraft because when you got into a Lancaster, behind the door on a normal Lancaster was a bed. Well on our Lancasters, 101 Squadron, the bed was taken out and the place was made for the special operators. I had my recording equipment and my equipment to listen, listen in to the German transmissions, and I could hear the German language and I could understand what was going on, and I would transmit that to my skipper when anything was happening that was useful to us. And so we had eight in the crew. Our Lancaster was converted from seven individuals to eight [emphasis], and I was the special operator, and the whole [emphasis] squadron was this way. We all had eight in the crew [phone rings]. Oh, excuse me a minute, is that –
[Tape paused and restarted].
AS: Okay, do carry on.
LT: Right, now I was up to this question – what, have you been over this question of why we had eight, eight members?
AS: Yes.
LT: You’ve been over this, and where they were situated and so on –
AS: Yep.
LT: And so forth. Now where were we up to –
AS: You just told me that.
LT: Yeah. Now when, when I had got my crew, Eric Neilson came in and I joined them. I had done six operations, you see when – you know the tour was at thirty, you were supposed to do up to thirty you see, so I did twenty-three with them, which is in my logbook and, for you to see, and in effect, we were getting on extremely well. I was, you know made[laughs], made right for them, but I couldn’t do the full tour that they were doing, you see. They would have to do the thirty and I would only have to do twenty-three to do. And in effect this, this situation developed where I did the twenty-three with them and I had to come off because I done thirty. I did six and I did another one with another crew, just one, to finish off my thirty [emphasis]. And Eric Neilson had to get another operator you see, so in effect as it says here in this history, that we got on very well together, we had a number of difficult situations to do, but the worst operation we had was on a raid on Kiel [emphasis], where we went to Kiel [papers shuffle]. We took off from Ludford just before midnight, at twenty-three fifty-five for the heavily defended German naval base at Kiel. The Lancaster was blown slightly off course over the North Sea so the bomb aimer had to ask that they, that they fly round for a second time over the target to ensure accuracy, which was always extremely hazardous. As we did not jam [?] over the actual target, I could watch everything from the astrodome. I used to go into the astrodome when we reached the target area, because I had to come off my, my equipment and we started doing our bombing [emphasis], and dropping, and dropping the bombs you see, and as it says here: [reading]: ‘there was a solid curtain burst and hellish flak, wall of searchlights across the sky. Other bombers all around waiting to release their bombs, and predatory German night fighters spitting canon fire. Finally we dropped our bombs on target, but were suddenly nailed by a master searchlight on the way out. Immediately, a dozen others combed us at twenty thousand feet.’ All these other searchlights, we got on a master searchlight caught us in its [laughs] light and the other searchlights came on and we were combed at twenty thousand feet. [Reading]: ‘extremely German flak opened up and we were scarred with shrapnel which simply passed through the airframe, over our two port engines and burst into flames. I feared the worst as I could not bail out over the North Sea at night.’ We were over the North Sea and we had these two engines caught [laughs] fire. [Reading]: ‘our quick thinking Canadian skipper, Eric Neilson, who was given the DFC from this operation, nose a Lancaster down and pulled out of the beam at five thousand feet. The pillar and flight engineer, the pilot [emphasis] and flight engineer managed to extinguish the flames over the North Sea using the internal extinguishers, and despite no power from the directional equipment because of the two cut engines, our skilled navigator used’ –. Now this is – he, our navigatior, he always carried a sextant. You know what a sextant is, for direction and so on and so forth, and [reading]: ‘stars trying to get us home on two engines. We crash landed at Ludford in Lincolnshire and our back at our aerodrome, a special crash landing base at about four a.m. with over a hundred [emphasis] holes in the Lancaster.’ We had over a hundred holes in it, and er – [reading]: ‘after debriefing, I laid on my bed and could not stop shaking for twelve hours. The MO said the best cure was simply to get back up again soon and of course we did.’ No counselling in those days, so that was a pretty difficult situation, which we [laughs], we got, we came back on two engines and crash landed [laughs] and so on and so forth. Now tell, I’ll tell you something that we haven’t written down. The way to get your wheels down in a Lancaster was through hydraulic tanks. Now, if you were out too long, or else [?] they were punctured, the tanks then you couldn’t get your wheels down. The only way you could get down was you had to crash land. So we couldn’t get our wheels down when we got back to our base [emphasis] and the pilot said to us ‘right boys, you’ve got to go and do business [laughs] to pee, to pee in the tanks, the hydraulic tanks.’ So we had to go and pee in the hydraulic tanks, and we managed to get sufficient water to get the wheels down, you know, and that was the only way we could get down safely [emphasis] by doing that. And we just [emphasis] got down, you know, it was a tremendous situation otherwise we were going to have to crash, crash land without any wheels you see, and that was, that thing on Kiel. And that really, on the 23rd of July 1944 was the worst possible trip that we had, and in my thirty operations that was the – because we got shot up and we had, you know, all the situations that developed, being involved with the Germans at that time, but anyway, we managed, managed okay. So is that quite clear to you?
AS: How many more trips did you have to do after that? Where was that in the –
LT: Er –
AS: In the order of them?
LT: That [papers shuffle] that was my twenty-third [emphasis] operation that was.
AS: So you got another seven to do?
LT: Another seven to do, yeah. And you know, it was very, very close. After serving in 101 I was told to take a long leave and thereafter working as ground crew, and [long pause] –
AS: So, so you did your thirty and after that you worked on the ground. You didn’t have to do anymore?
LT: I didn’t have to do anymore, no.
AS: Right.
LT: I worked on the ground –
AS: ‘Cause I read some people had to do another thirty and then –
LT: Oh well that is if you did a straight [emphasis] thirty you weren’t forced [emphasis] to go do a second operation, operational trip. They asked [emphasis] you if you wanted to go you could go, and you found a suitable crew you could go. But I’m afraid that doing thirty trips in a Lancaster at that particular time [laughs] it, it didn’t sit, make you want to go back and have another go [laughs], I can tell you that much.
AS: Were there many people who did thirty, I mean, I mean it was incredibly dangerous wasn’t it?
LT: Oh yes, oh yes.
AS: You must have lost a lot of comrades on the way.
LT: Well, I lost my best pal in the Air Force, a boy named Jack Whitely. We were on a raid going out, and we were circling off the coast, off the English coast, waiting to go out when we saw an explosion in the sky, and what happened was two aircraft had collided because when you were going out, you went to the coast and you all got into your positions. There might have been three or four hundred aircraft, but you all had certain times where you would take off for your target you see, which would put you in a certain position. Well, at some times you got there a little early, you couldn’t go, go off for your operation, so you had to wait. All you’d do is you’d go round and round and round, you see, waiting for your time to come up while you went on operation. Well, at times you were very, very close to other aircraft, especially at night and they were very much a number of collisions. And Jack, real name Jack Whitely who I went through radio school and everything, and as a matter of fact I’ve got information here from his family. They wrote to me, I think it’s in that file there. They wrote to me and you know, because Jack and I we used to be, go to each other’s homes and so on and so forth when we were on leave, and he got killed. They fished him out the, fished him out the sea. And this is the sort of life you had in the Air Force. You didn’t know where you – you made friends but you didn’t know what was going to happen on your next, on your next, next trip.
AS: Your thirty trips, how far, how far apart were they?
LT: Thirty – well in the winter they were further apart than in the, in the summer. A lot depended on, on the weather. I did my, my thirty took me about what, four, four, about five months it took me, yeah. And sometimes it took much longer, it took seven or eight months, and in the summer, if we were completely in the summer weather, well you were that much better off [laughs] as far as getting down quicker. But a lot of boys went back and did second, second tours. But I found myself that getting through one tour was heavy enough.
AS: You’d had your luck, and you were sticking with it.
LT: Yes, definitely [emphasis], definitely.
AS: So when you, then you became ground crew. What did you do with the ground crew, as a ground crew?
LT: Well, when I went back on ground crew I was teaching other boys, you know, carrying on, on various squadrons to teach other boys what you learnt when you [emphasis] were flying, and that’s, that’s what I did, and it, it was 1944 and we were getting towards the end [laughs] of things then. We were finding things that promised, made, we made promises [emphasis] to finish, finish the war then and it, it was a great life at the time because I’d never been abroad when I went into the Air Force. I’d never been abroad or anything like that, and it was a totally, totally different life. And since then it’s been seventy, seventy years [emphasis], seventy years since –
AS: Hmm.
LT: Finishing a tour.
AS: When you did the ground, when you were with the ground crew, was, where were you stationed then? Was that still in Lincolnshire?
LT: Oh yes, yes, Lincolnshire. I think I got [papers shuffle] something here [long pause]. Got here, [reading]: ‘there was little doubt that outside the small circle of 101 Squadron veterans, few knew, few know the important dangerous work of the special [emphasis] operators and their Lancaster crew comrades. Less still, the role of the Jewish SOs,’ special operators, ‘it is to be hoped that this study will bring deserved, if belated recognition to this brave band of brothers.’ Now where did I – [papers shuffle, long pause], hmm.
AS: So how long were you – was it ‘til you were demobilised at the end?
LT: What come off aircrew?
AS: Yes. I mean when you, when you left the RAF, when was that?
LT: I left the – well I was, what, in the RAF nineteen, nineteen, what – just a minute I’ll give you the details, are just here [papers shuffle, long pause]. Hmm, excuse me, looking this up. [Long pause] 24th [?] 1944 [long pause]. [Reading]: ‘from October 1943, Squadron 101 flew two thousand, four hundred and seventy-seven sorties with Airborne Cigar from Ludford Magna. They dropped sixteen thousand tonnes of bombs between January 1944 and April 1945 alone [emphasis], and flew more bombing raids than any other Lancaster squadron in Group 1, losing one thousand and ninety-four crew killed and a hundred and seventy-eight prisoners of war.’ Now, we lost more individuals in our squadron than any other RAF squadron –
AS: Mm.
LT: You know. [Reading]: ‘the highest causalities of any squadron in the RAF,’ 101 Squadron. It’s a good thing for you to have noted. [Reading]: ‘it dropped sixteen thousand tonnes of bombs between January forty-four and April forty-five, and flew more bombing raids than any other, than any other Lancaster squadron in Group 1.’
AS: Hmm.
LT: Yeah. [Reading]: ‘losing one thousand and ninety-four crew and a hundred and seventy-eight were prisoners of war. The highest casualties of any squadron in the RAF.’ It, we were a tough, a tough squadron.
AS: So what date did you, were you demobilised from the RAF?
LT: What date –
AS: Yes.
LT: Did I, excuse me [papers shuffle, long pause]. Well I finished my tour 23rd October forty-four. Now [papers shuffle]. Now, 28th of October forty-four – I started operations [continued shuffling] in June forty-four to October forty-four. That’s when, that’s my whole –
AS: That’s from your logbook.
LT: Yeah.
AS: But when did you actually leave the RAF?
LT: The RAF was in, in forty, forty-five I think. I can’t –
AS: Did you leave immediately after the war finished?
LT: Er, yes [shuffling]. I’ve got a note somewhere when I left the RAF.
AS: What did you do after, after you left?
LT: What did I do?
AS: Hmm.
LT: I became – I had one or two little business activities, but I went into insurance business. I was an insurance broker for many years. I had my office in The Temple. You know The Temple?
AS: Mm.
LT: Smiths [?], Selma [?] and Temple and Company, Temple Chambers, Temple Avenue, East E4, that was, that was what I was involved in –
AS: Did, did –
LT: When I came out the RAF.
AS: Did you find it easy to settle back into civilian life or?
LT: Well, the early days weren’t easy, the early days weren’t easy. But – because I did a lot of cold calling on businesses in those days, a lot of cold calling to build up a basic clientele. But then I, I got known quite well. I had an office in Shoreditch, and then I went up to Ludgate Circus, and then from Ludgate Circus we were doing well with the Norwich Union, and they said to me that ‘we’ve got offices in The Temple.’ They owned these offices in the Norwich Union and ‘we’d like you to come in there and operate [laughs] and we can do business together.’ So that’s the way – until my retirement at sixty-five. Really I retired too early [emphasis]. I could have gone on working and it’s, I mean when you look at it gently, I’m now coming up ninety-one. I’m retired, you know, twenty-six, twenty-six years ago [laughs], it’s, you know to fill in your time over those years it takes, it takes a lot of doing. And I’ve filled in a lot of my time with doing building for other people sort of thing, going, passing on my know how to other people, and that’s the, that’s the way it’s been.
AS: And tell me about your comrades in your crew. You told me you kept in touch with them.
LT: Yes. Well did you see that letter –
AS: I did yes.
LT: From my skipper?
AS: Yes I did. Your skipper Eric Neilson.
LT: Yeah.
AS: Tell me, tell me, tell us about Eric.
LT: Eric’s, Eric was a – well he had his own aircraft in Canada. He he had his own plane, and he wanted me to go out there but I missed it. I didn’t go out to Canada and then things, things happened that are just right. We were writing, phoning each other and so on, keeping, keeping in touch [emphasis]. I kept in touch with about four of my crew. The one you saw the card, just died, Stan Horne my navigator. Kept in touch with him, and with Eric, Eric died pretty early [emphasis] you know.
AS: Did he? And he was the one who was the deputy prime minister in Canada.
LT: In Canada, yes. And you can see in your, in the book there’s some very nice pictures of him.
AS: And this is his memories, his autobiography we’re looking at.
LT: Yeah [shuffling papers]. See there’s our, there’s our crew there –
AS: Oh yes [long pause, shuffling].
LT: Lovely man [shuffling continues]. Life moves very quickly.
AS: And after the war what – I mean how do you think that Bomber Command were treated? Have you got any opinion on that?
LT: On Bomber Command – well no not really. I haven’t got a lot of experience [emphasis] with Bomber Command.
AS: No.
LT: But I’ve kept together, yeah I’ve been going to the RAF club regularly. I still go there occasionally.
AS: In Pall Mall?
LT: In Pall Mall, yes.
AS: Yes.
LT: Opposite the memorial.
AS: Yes.
LT: And go up there and, you know, because it gets to the stage when you’re here, you know, you make friends with someone and then they’re gone, die [laughs] you see. And there’s a session, session, a procession [emphasis] of men dying now –
AS: Hmm.
LT: Because everybody, everybody will, we’ll all go. I don’t know when, how much longer [laughs] I’ve got, you see. But it’s been a great [emphasis] experience in one’s life, to have gone through, gone through all this. It’s – I could go on for, on for days [emphasis] going over, going over things that –
AS: Shall we, erm, well shall I stop the recording, and we’ll look at some of the –
LT: Yeah.
AS: Archival documents –
LT: Did you –
AS: Materials that you’ve got. The book that you’ve been reading from – can I just –
LT: Did you see this letter?
AS: I’ll have a look at it in a second. The book you’ve been reading from is “Fighting Back: British During Military Contribution in the Second World War” by Martin Sugarman isn’t it?
LT: That’s right, yes.
AS: Yes. Okay, thank you very much, I’ll turn the recorder off now, and –
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Leslie Temple
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Sadler
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:49:39 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATempleL151027
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Leslie Temple spent four years in the Air Training Corps before joining the Royal Air Force as a radio operator. He completed a tour of 30 operations with 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna, as a German speaking special operator. He describes how having an eight man crew and extra equipment affected the interior of the Lancaster bombers. He reads from “Fighting Back: British During Military Contribution in the Second World War” by Martin Sugarman throughout the interview.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Katie Gilbert
101 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-17
Dominie
fear
ground personnel
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Proctor
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Madley
RAF Sculthorpe
searchlight
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/158/1964/AWilsonJM160121.1.mp3
cb40304a764a6e6244db3dc9d8fc9ac4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wilson, Joan
Joan Wilson
Joan M Hill
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Joan Mary Wilson (486004 I, Royal Air Force) and one photograph. Joan was a wireless operator in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force and served in 5 Group.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Joan M Wilson and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wilson, JM
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Mrs Joan Wilson. The interview is taking place at Mrs Wilson’s home in Lincoln on Thursday 21st of January 2016. We can start. So I mean if you could tell me just a bit about when and where you were born?
JW: I was born at Nettleham about five miles from Lincoln in December 1920. The second child of my parents but my mother died when I was a baby. But I was fortunate. My father married again and my stepmother was very good as a stepmother. Unfortunately, they had a child of their own that I was very jealous of and that wasn’t too good. But my mother always, well my step mother always said I was the clever one and when I got a scholarship when I was ten to South Park they thought, you know, I was wonderful because it was a grammar school.
MC: You enjoyed your school days.
JW: I did. At South Park. I hated it until then. Because I was a very shy mousy little girl and St Andrews Church School was a big school. And the teachers didn’t mind giving you a slap if they felt like it. And then when I got to South Park it was so much gentler and quieter. And classes of only eighteen or twenty. I was a bit of a rebel because in my class of eighteen or twenty there were at least five girls called Joan. And we used to sit on the back row so that if the teacher said, ‘Joan,’ at least three of us would stand up. Until we were all separated. And that went on all the time I was at South Park. I left school when I was sixteen because my parents couldn’t afford to keep me at school any longer.
MC: What did your parents – what did your father do for work?
JW: He was a woodworker at Newsomes. A wood machinist at Newsomes. Which is probably why I love anything made of wood. Children’s toys and everything. I’ve a doll’s house in there that the children play with and all the furniture is wood. Crudely cut. But it is wood. Not plastic.
MC: So you left school at sixteen.
JW: I left school at sixteen. I went to train as a nanny. As a children’s nurse at a Church of England group down in Surrey. Unfortunately, after twelve months I caught diphtheria so I never finished the course. I caught it from then. But I became a private nanny to a little girl in Keighley. I stayed there until 1940. When I thought it was time I did something for the war effort. So I went to work in a children’s home and I stayed there until I thought somebody older could do this and I decided to try and join the RAF. Amy Johnson had been my heroine as a child. I’d always wanted to fly. And of course living in Lincoln I saw lots of planes. When I first went to work in Keighley I couldn’t understand why people on a Thursday afternoon would stand in the main street and look up at the sky. But that was when the mail plane went over. Once a week. And that’s the only plane they ever saw whereas I was used to them practicing at Waddington even in those days. Anyway, I decided to try and join the RAF. Unfortunately, at that time they weren’t recruiting for the RAF but I went along nevertheless. And because of my, they got it all wrong, but because of my nursing experience they decided yes, I could join the RAF as a nurse. I mean I’d never done any actual nursing. Only looked after children. But out of about forty of us who were interviewed that day three of us were chosen for the RAF. One because she had already got a driver’s licence or perhaps they didn’t have licences but she could drive and the other one because she had been in the navy and bought herself out and could do Morse. So the three of us ended up in the RAF. Well, one of the reasons I wanted to join the RAF was because I wanted to see something of England or Scotland. You didn’t look any further than that in those days.
MC: Because at that time it would be the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force.
JW: It was. WAAF. Yeah. WAAF. And anyway the three of us remained as, more or less, friends for quite a long while. We all ended up in Blackpool training as wireless operators despite us all wanting to be different. The last thing I ever wanted to be was a wireless operator. It had taken me two years as a Girl Guide to learn Morse. There I was having to do it all over again. I had six months at Blackpool and then a few weeks — I think it was Compton Bassett but I’m not really sure. It was somewhere down south anyway. And that’s when we got our posting. And I thought at last. Imagine what it was like when I found I was posted seven miles from Lincoln. To Morton Hall. I couldn’t believe it. I really couldn’t. Partly because if the journey was going to take more than eight hours you were given rations. And I was given rations. But the journey from London to Lincoln didn’t take eight hours. I spent most of it at home. And then eventually reported.
MC: Did you do any basic training? You know. Drill training.
JW: Oh yes. That was in Gloucester. Somewhere Gloucestershire. Yes. I did. Oh yes I learned how to march and how to salute and form fours and all the rest of it. Yes. That was before I was posted. Yes. I missed that bit out. I did my basic training and then I was posted to Cranwell. Just to fill my time in until my Morse.
MC: Until you learned Morse.
JW: Training started and I had about three months there just wasting time. Running errands and but at least I did see the college and things like that.
MC: So your wireless operator training was in Blackpool?
JW: That was the Morse training yes.
MC: Morse training.
JW: Yeah. And also [pause] I can’t remember the procedure and something else. There was three different courses going on. The Morse was done at the Blackpool Tower Ballroom. And that’s where we got paid as well. At Blackpool. At there.
MC: So how long were you there for?
JW: Six months. Three months before Christmas so that we got Christmas leave and then three months after and then after that, as I said it was a few weeks. I’m almost sure it was Compton Bassett. It was some place like that.
MC: The radio school was at Compton.
JW: Yes. Well it would be there then. For seven weeks I was there. And then I passed out from there at eighteen words a minute.
MC: There was another one at Yatesbury as well.
JW: No. I’m almost sure it was.
MC: It would be probably Compton Bassett. Yeah.
JW: And as I say, then to my horror I was posted to Morton Hall. I got to Morton Hall and of course I was the lowest of the low. ACW2. All these other blokes on my watch they’d all had oak leaves because they’d been in for the Dambuster raid and all this, that and the other and there was me straight from training school. So most of the time I ran messages, I made the tea, I did the cooking on night watch. I mean would you believe it when you were on the night watch and I can’t remember what hours they were we were issued with rations. Well, it was so ridiculous because I mean we had a meal before we went on and there was breakfast when we came off. And really all we wanted was a cup of tea in between. So my parent’s benefited by extra liver, and sausage and various things that we were given and didn’t eat. Rather than waste it. And I was the only one who lived locally. It did mean I didn’t take part in much that went on in the way of social activities because I went home. And as I say my time actually in 5 Group was very humdrum but I did have one real excitement. On D-day plus one we had to keep radio silence so most of us just fiddled around with spare Morse keys you know. Playing about. There was only one magazine in the section that we could copy Morse from and it was called, “Maria and the Red Barn.” It was a real penny dreadful. I don’t know what the story was about but the cover was a very lurid one. A half naked woman covered in blood. Anyway, we were all fiddling about. Really bored. Doing nothing. And the radio officer burst in to the room and said, ‘Stop bombing. Stop bombing. In plain language to all. On all your keys.’ And what had happened was that our lads had gone further and we were bombing them. And that really was the most exciting day I had at Bomber Command.
MC: So when, when did you go to Morton Hall?
JW: Well now let me see. The end of January would see my — the end of March would see my course. March. April. May I should think.
MC: This was what year?
JW: ’44.
MC: ’44. Yeah.
JW: By then.
MC: So you joined. When did you actually joined did you say? Because you said about 1940 you said you decided you’d want to join.
JW: Yeah. But it was after that that I actually got in.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. That’s fine. That’s fine.
JW: I can’t remember.
MC: No. No. It’s —
JW: I’ve got my pay book somewhere. But I don’t know where.
MC: So you were at Morton Hall during D-day.
JW: I was. Yes. Yes. But while I was there I put in for every posting possible because I wanted to travel. Eventually I did get the posting I wanted. To the Far East. And I went to Ceylon. Sri Lanka now. I had —
MC: What year was that? That was in ’44 was it?
JW: It was ‘44/45 [pause] yes. Because in ’46 I went to Hong Kong. So that was after the atom bomb had been dropped. And I think I’m one of the few people who agree with the atom bomb being dropped. But while I was in Ceylon we had some of the people who were ex-prisoners of war came in. And although they’d already been in hospital and supposed to have been well fed they were still skin and bone. And they wanted to touch you. They were, in a way, not quite normal. It must have taken them a long while to get back so if the atom bomb stopped one person from that I was pleased. It was a horrible thing. Really horrible. But something had to be done.
MC: So you were a wireless operator in Ceylon doing —
JW: I was a wireless operator. Still more or less doing what I’d done here. Taking wind messages. It was an odd set up because there was only one person on duty at a time. So I was utterly spoilt because I was in one room and all the weather people were in the other room and I was taking mostly wind reports from all over the world. I can’t remember the name of them now. I know Port Moresby was one of the places that we took wind reports from.
MC: So whereabouts in Ceylon were you?
JW: Colombo. And then the last two months I was in Kandy. So I saw the Temple of the Tooth.
MC: So you enjoyed your time in Ceylon.
JW: I loved it. I loved it. I loved Ceylon. And if I’d ever had the chance to go back I’d have liked to have done. My parents, my daughter of course was brought up on stories of Ceylon so as soon as they could she and her husband they went out to Ceylon for a holiday. But, anyway part of the reason that I loved Ceylon apart from the country and the people was the fact that I joined what we called the Rover Ranger Scout Crew. I’d been a Girl Guide and one of the first notices up in the section when we arrived there was an invitation to join this group. I was the only WAAF that went. There were quite a lot of nurses and WRENs in the group. And it was fine because we weren’t allowed out after sundown without a male escort. How the hell do you find a male escort when you’re just suddenly dumped there? But I was lucky because one of the crew would always come and collect me and sign me out and bring me back. Unfortunately, after a week in Ceylon I was involved in a motor accident. We [pause] we were invited to a unit that was the, it was a signals unit and it was more or less a case of you, you and you go. So I was one that had to go. They needed some females because it was an all male unit. And on the way back from there we were in one of these lorries that had the sort of canvas sides. You know the sort. A frame with a canvas on and at the last minute I needed to go to the loo. So I was sitting right on the end and I had to sit on someone’s knee because by then it was full. And a small car smashed in to us, quite near the WAAF’ery. And I was thrown. I sensed it was coming somehow and fell limply. And I got up. I was covered in blood but it wasn’t mine. I had a scratch. Well, a big hole in one leg. Two people died and I know one, I’ll never forget her, the girl, her head was smashed in and her brains were coming. It was a horrible sight. Something you never forget.
MC: No.
JW: Never. I don’t know what I did. I was in a daze. I know two or three days later one man came to me. An RAF bloke came to me and said thank you for trying to help so and so. I said, ‘Well I honestly don’t know what I did. I was in a daze myself.’ Just being involved in this accident. Seen two people dead. Not knowing. I was the only one who actually walked away from it. Everybody else was in hospital. But I had nightmares for days after. But I got over that. One very exciting thing that happened while I was in Ceylon. The crew were invited to this man’s bungalow. When I say bungalow it was a great big rambling place. Beautiful grounds. He had an orchid garden where there were orchids from that big to that big in rows. Like you get the tulips at Spalding. Actually it put me off orchids because these big ones were almost like rampaging beasts. I loved the little ones. But the meal, a meal was laid out for us in these ground on these long tables. Beautiful white tablecloths. Boys dressed in sort of raj’s uniforms served us. One — and there were little patties in dishes on the tables. One of the crew took a bite and it was so hot he had a drink out of the fingerbowl [laughs] But I can’t remember much about the meal but afterwards the owner of the place asked a few of us to go with him and we went into the bungalow and he showed us this sword and it was the sword he had been knighted with by George VI. And the hilt had a sample of all the jewels you could find in Ceylon. They were only semi-precious but it was absolutely beautiful. I’ve no idea who he was. No way of finding out because I’m the last of the crew to be alive I’m afraid. Everybody else has gone.
MC: So you refer to the crew. How was the crew made up? What was the crew?
JW: They were all Scouts. Ex-Scouts.
MC: Oh the Scout crew. Yeah.
JW: Yes. All ex-Scouts or ex-Guides. Yes. Because that was in the days when you could be a Scout until you died whereas nowadays you’re a Senior scout and somebody else and somebody else. Because of that my daughter was brought up very much in Guiding and now she’s in Scouting. My two youngest, my two, three eldest great grandchildren are all in Beavers. And so it goes on. I’m rambling aren’t I? Anyway, that’s more or less —
MC: So you — when did you leave Ceylon?
JW: I left Ceylon after the atom bomb had dropped. 1946.
MC: And then you went to Hong Kong.
JW: And I went to Hong Kong. I had six months in Hong Kong. It was like a building site.
MC: Really.
JW: There was nothing. I mean the people were camping on the pavements. They were skin and bone. They were camping on the roofs of buildings. And I did meet someone there. Eugenie Coupland who had been in the camp at the end of Hong Kong. What was it called? I can’t remember what it was called now but it was the civilian internment camp. I did go up to it which [pause] there was a lady whose husband had died in the camp and she very much wanted to go up and see his burial ground. And so the crew took her up. We’d managed to get hold of a jeep because it’s high up. The camp was. I wish I could remember what it was called now. It was right on the edge of the island. I mean it was a sheer drop in to the sea from the camp. And we took this lady up and we saw this horrible place. But Eugenie Coupland who had been interned there said they weren’t actually badly treated. It was just that food was so short. She had her little boy with her and she said the English girls who’d been in Hong Kong for Christmas. It was Christmas Day when Hong Kong was taken and she said they were fantastic. These were girls who had been at boarding school. Probably never done a thing for themselves in their lives. But she said they were wonderful. They started schools for the children. They gathered grass and any greenery they could find and cooked it down for extra food. And she said they did get the, occasionally, Red Cross parcel and they’d save the brown paper for the children to draw on and everything. She said they were absolutely wonderful these girls.
MC: So at that time that must have been quite an experience for you to be in Hong Kong. You know. To see what was the aftermath.
JW: It was. It was. And while I was there I joined another Rover Ranger crew there. Once more I was the only girl in that one because there weren’t very many women sent out there. The ATS came out actually and we, we had to, you know, be good to them. Serve them and all the rest of it but they only stayed two or three days and then they went off again. They couldn’t take the heat. We also had some American girls and the same thing with them. They couldn’t take the heat. Whereas I could stand the heat. It’s the cold I can’t stand. Then I go and marry someone who spent his time in Iceland don’t I?
MC: So when did you meet your husband then?
JW: Oh a long while after the war.
MC: Oh I see. So from Hong Kong you came home.
JW: I came back to England. Yes. And went to work at Ruston’s of all places.
MC: So what year was that? When did you come back?
JW: 1946.
MC: You came back in ’46.
JW: Yes. The end.
MC: And you came out the air force then.
JW: Yes. October I think it was. Yes. I got home just after my mother’s birthday. Yes. So that would be October 1946. And I was very thin then because of the heat. Well, about what I am now I think. I mean after that I started packing it on.
MC: So you —
JW: I went to my old job in Keighley for a little while. By which time the little girl I had taken earlier and taught her first lessons was away at boarding school but they had another little girl. So I had a year with her before she went off to boarding school and then I came back to Lincoln and went to work at Ruston’s. And that’s where I met my husband but not until 1956. My daughter was born a year later. And my husband was one of those who would not allow me to go out to work. So we struggled on his money but he was adamant.
MC: What did he do?
JW: He worked at Ruston’s. He was in the office there. But he was quite badly wounded during the war. All down his left side.
MC: And what was he in?
JW: He was in the Anglians. And he went over in D-day plus one. He was one of the ones that got bombed but by the Americans. Not the British. And it was the Americans actually that saved his life eventually. That and penicillin because it was just at the experimental stages. He [pause] he was shelled and the whole group were wiped out. The American burial party came to collect the bodies. And they collected Alf and he said, ‘I’m not dead yet.’ So they managed to get him to, onto a transport. And my husband said that was awful because they were these flat things that they used to carry bombs on. They just were laid on that and he said if you rolled off that was it because there’d would be others following. You’d be in convoy and they’d not stop to pick you up. Anyway, he got back to England and was more or less messing around until the end of the war then. We married and my daughter was born thirteen months later. We only had the one child.
MC: You said, let’s go back a little bit. You said you were in Morton Hall.
JW: Yes.
MC: Part of 5 Group was that?
JW: Yes. It was 5 Group headquarters.
MC: Oh right. Was it? Yes. Of course it would be. Yes.
JW: Yes. Yes. Yes.
MC: So and so when you went to Ceylon who were you with? What —
JW: South East Asia Command I suppose.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. I guess that would be the case. Yes.
JW: Yes.
MC: Yeah. And the same with Hong Kong.
JW: Yes. Mountbatten was my boss.
MC: There you go, you see. Yeah. That’s, that’s lovely.
JW: Yes he took the Victory Parade you know.
MC: So travelling to Ceylon and Hong Kong. How did you get there?
JW: To Ceylon we went by boat. And it was Christmas. We had Christmas on the Mediterranean. People had told me that the Mediterranean was always blue. It wasn’t. It was dark grey, murky and horrible. And it was supposed to have been cleared of submarines and we got one following us. A stray. Didn’t do anything. But it did mean that we had to keep silence. And the boat we sailed on was called the Johan van or von Oldenbarnevelt. John the old man in the field somebody translated it as. We had to learn the Dutch national anthem phonetically so that we could sing it for them because it was a Dutch boat. Very clean boat. And we had [pause] took us four weeks to get there. And we arrived and we were paraded in the boiling sun. No shade on this parade ground at the WAAF’ery. And we were told if we got sunburned it was a criminal offence. And I thought yeah and here we are. I mean luckily I’m dark but some of the fair girls were fainting. But —
MC: And you’d just arrived as well.
JW: Yes. Yeah. Mind you I mean we got used to a certain amount of heat on the boat. We had been issued with shorts. Men’s shorts. One of the first things we did when we got to Ceylon was to be told to go to a certain tailor’s and take somebody with you and be measured for trousers and shorts. Had to wear trousers because of mosquitoes of course.
MC: Yeah. So the, from Ceylon you went, how did you get to Hong Kong then? Did you go by boat?
JW: No. We went by flying boat.
MC: Oh. Flying boat.
JW: Yes. Yes.
MC: That was an experience.
JW: It was. There were twelve of us went. There should have been thirteen but for some reason or other one girl had to drop out so there were twelve of us went. And for some reason or other my friend and I were allocated the crew’s quarters where there were two bunks. The rest sat in the tail of the plane. I never went so I’m not sure exactly how they slept or if they slept. Because we went overnight and I know during the night I woke up and I saw this, the assistant pilot throwing things out of the window. That’s how low we flew in those days. You could open a window [laughs] And he was throwing things out of the window. And I remember thinking now are we going to crash and are they throwing things out. Anyway, I thought well if I’m going to die in my sleep. So I turned over and went to sleep again. And when I woke up the next morning apparently they were things to tell which way the wind was blowing ready for when we landed. And we landed —
MC: So how long was that flight then?
JW: Twelve hours. Well eleven if you count the fact that we altered the clocks.
MC: The clocks.
JW: But it was twelve hours actually in the air yeah. And that was by Flying Boat. So we came to rest on the lake and I was violently sea sick. One of the few who hadn’t been air sick but I made up for it. A jeep came to take us off. As I say I just managed to vomit in the sea. So that was my arrival in Ceylon.
MC: You don’t know what type of sort of Flying Boat it was. I suspect it probably would have been a Sunderland or something.
JW: It was a Sunderland. It was a Sunderland Flying Boat.
MC: Yes.
JW: Yes. Yeah. So they tell me. But that’s how I arrived in Hong Kong. We did have a stopover in Singapore on the way to Hong Kong. And they tell me it’s a beautiful city now but what I saw of it it was a really filthy hole. There was the [pause] oh dear what do you call the place where we went for a cup of tea. A man’s name. It’s very famous and I can’t remember it. And you know it as well. Everybody knows it. We did go there. And because I’ve told you about the crew well we were looking around the cathedral in Singapore and then this voice hailed me. It was one of the crew and they were going home but they were going over the Pacific. They were going that way. So they’d done around the world. But I was on my way to Hong Kong. I can’t get —
MC: I think it might have been Raffles.
JW: It was Raffles. Yes. I’d nearly got it hadn’t I. We did manage to get there.
MC: You had tea in Raffles.
JW: Yes. Yeah. But as I say as regards the city I thought there was some beetle juice all over the place. You know, they chew beetle juice and then spit it out and it’s like red blotches all over the place. And there was, and they spit it out then you see. And there was chewing gum. It was very very dirty but they tell me it’s beautiful now. Of course they’ve stopped spitting. That’s not allowed. I mean it went on in Ceylon as well. But then it rained often enough to wash it away.
MC: So the climate in Ceylon wasn’t, it was hot but quite often —
JW: I could take it. I loved it. Yes. Yes. And I liked, I liked the job I was doing there. As I say I was taking wind reports mostly. As I had done and I did eventually get someone to take my test so that I did become an LACW or else I should have ended my time as an ACW2.
MC: So you finished up as an LAC then.
JW: I did. Yes. Yes. Yes.
MC: Well that’s lovely. Thank you Joan. I mean it’s a super story.
JW: I hope I haven’t wasted your time.
MC: So you talked about Morton Hall. Were you doing the same thing? Wind. What reports were you doing?
JW: Mostly wind reports yes.
MC: The were wind reports.
JW: Which I was able to take to the ops rooms you see. Yes. They were [pause] I think there were six, six digits. Do you know I can’t really remember now but in Ceylon I was taking two hundred word reports you see because it was from all over. They would gather them up and send them over.
MC: Yeah. That’s a lovely story Joan. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Joan Wilson
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-21
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:37:26 audio recording
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mike Connock
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWilsonJM160121
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Joan Wilson was born in Nettleham near Lincoln. She joined the Women’s Auxilliary Air Force and served as a wireless operator at RAF Morton Hall. The day following the Normandy landings, she had to send an urgent signal to all aircraft, to stop bombing because the Allies had progressed further than expected. After the war she was posted to Ceylon, where she witnessed the state of prisoners who had been held by the Japanese. After Ceylon she was posted to Hong Kong.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
China
Great Britain
Sri Lanka
England--Lincolnshire
China--Hong Kong
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-07
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
aircrew
ground personnel
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
prisoner of war
RAF Morton Hall
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/195/3328/AAllenRM160809.2.mp3
0e0b76b16f6cef1602bcaf97be83a19b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Allen, Richard Murray
Richard Allen
Richard Murray Allen
R Allen
Richard M Allen
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Richard Murray Allen (b. 1925, 435362 Royal Australian Air Force).
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Allen, RM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DG: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre; my name is Donald Gould, and I'm interviewing Richard Allen at his home in Pymble, a suburb of Sydney in New Souith Wales, Australia. How old are you, Richard?
RA: Ninety one.
DG: And where were you born?
RA: In Brisbane in Queensland (pause).
DG: Where did you go to school?
RA: Well, actually I went to primary school in Mount Iza because my father went there during the depression, he was an engineer in the power house there. We spent eight years there. I did my primary schooling there, and I did my secondary schooling, two years of it in those days, which would be the equivelent of about year ten now, I did that at the State Commercial High School in Brisbane.
DG: And er, Mount Isa's a mining town, isn't it?
RA: That's correct.
DG: What was your father doing there?
RA: He was an engineer in the power house.
DG: Oh, I'm sorry, yeah (chuckles). When war broke out can you remember where you were, what you were doing, how old you were?
RA: Yes, I was fourteen. Nineteen thirty nine it was, and I was still at school.
DG: And when you were at, when you were at school did you have any thought that you might end up in the war?
RA: Yes. I joined the Air Training Corps as soon as it was formed. From memory that would have been about nineteen forty one, and I joined the Air Training Corps, and we were given, apart from marching and drilling, and all that sort of thing, we were given certain instructions in morse code, sending and receiving of course, and meteor-, meteorological education, and other things relative to the Air Force. And I was in the Air Training Corps until April nineteen forty three, and on the tenth of April, which is my birthday, I er was actually accepted by the Air Force and ten days later I was in camp at the initial training school.
DG: Now you left, you finished school in forty three?
RA: No, I finished school actually in nineteen thirty nine.
DG: Oh, I beg your pardon. Oh you, oh you had finished then?
RA: Oh yes.
DG: Oh I see. Right, right. Okay then.
RA: I finished school at fourteen, which was a bit young in those days. Most kids would have finished high school at fifteen or sixteen, but I'd had primary school, because it was a small country town I'd done two years in one, which meant I could finish school a bit younger than most people. So, I joined the Air Training Corps which was formed during the war, about nineteen forty one. Because I always wanted to get into the Air Force rather than the Army, and I knew that when I turned eighteen I would be put into either the Air Force or the Army because there was conscription for home service, but I thought I might as well volunteer and go wherever they told me to go.
DG: Why the Air Force and not the Army?
RA: Oh, I suppose because (chuckles) it appealed to me more. I can't think of any other reason.
DG: No? And did you erm, when you, when you then, when you then joined the er, the Air Force did you have any, any idea as to what you, what you wanted to do?
RA: Oh yes. Everybody wanted to be a pilot (both laugh). But on initial training course there were about a hundred and eighty on the course. Courses were going in about once a month in those days, and there were about a hunudred and eighty of us. I think there were about ten pilots and about, picked from the course, and about er perhaps ten or fifteen navigators, and the rest, the rest were, were appointed as wireless air gunners for further training. Well wireless was easy to me because I could send and receive, er twenty five, thirty words a minute because of my training in the Air Training Corps. Ah. So the wireless course, which was six months, was pretty easy, actually. The gunnery course only lasted a month, then our training was completed in Victoria, and within a month we were on a troop ship to England.
DG: So what place you, you, was all your training in Victoria?
RA: No. The initial training and the wireless training, which was a total of, initial training was one month, wireless course about six months, that was all done in Queensland. The wireless course, the initial training course, my pardon, was at Kingeroy, a country town in Queensland, and Merriburra in Queensland was the wireless course, and then in Victoria was the gunnery course, which was at West Sale. There was an Air Force station at East Sale, that's why I distinguish one from the other.
DG: So, you were then in the Air Force and receiving this training. Did you have any idea where you might end up? Did you know you might go to Europe, or-
RA: Oh yes, almost certainly, almost certainly. Actually, I was selected as a navigator on the initial training course, and then the next day they sent for me and said, 'look, I'm sorry, you were selected as a navigator but we find that you can't go overseas until you're nineteen. That's against the law. So you're going to have to be a wireless operator.' So, I was a bit peeved by that, but, you know, you have to accept your fate from these people.
DG: Yes. And so, when, when did you-
RA: Actually, I got to England before I was nineteen. I reached England in April, I beg your pardon, in March nineteen forty four, before I was nineteen. It didn't seem to matter then.
DG: No. So, you went from Victoria. Where did you go from -
RA: I went on leave for a few weeks, and then got on the troop ship. I came on leave back to Bradfield Park, Sydney, which you'd know well, and we were there for about three days.
DG: Right.
RA: And then on to the troop ship.
DG: And where did you, where did you, where did you disembark?
RA: In England?
DG: Are you- You didn't go, you didn't have training in Canada?
RA: No.
DG: No?
RA: No navigators -
DG: Ah, of course yes, yes. That's right. Yes. (DG talking across RA throughout this exchange)
RA: Navigators went there, and I think the odd pilot, but mostly the navigators. I guess because it was pretty flat.
DG: And what, and what places did you do further training in the UK?
RA: Well, when I got to UK I was given a staff job, at a Pilot's Advanced Flying Unit, up in the Cotswolds, a place called erm, Windrush, and our job up there was to fly at night time with pilots who were converting from single engined to multi engined aircraft. They were actually converting on Oxfords, which weren't a very pleasant aircraft, but we used to fly with the trainee pilots at night time, so if they got lost we could get them a bearing on the wireless to get them back to, to Windrush. I was there for a couple of months and back to Brighton, which was the RAAF holding unit, and then I was posted to operational training at a place called Kinloss in Scotland, and er, just near Fin- which was the aeordrome, just near Findhorne Bay, I believe there's a permanent base there now, and from there we went to Bottesford for operational training, and converting from, from Wellingtons which we'd flown in at operational training, and er (pause) we then went to heavy conversion unit at Bottesford. Perhaps that's not what I said originally, but it was a heavy conversion unit where we converted onto Lancasters, and then we went to, we were there I guess for about a month, maybe a bit more, then over to 101 Squadron, Ludford Magna.
DG: When you arrived -, and what er, you were a wireless operator, what rank were you at that stage?
RA: I landed in England as a Sergeant, and I, after six months you were automatically promoted to Flight Sergeant, and after tweve months automatically promoted to Warrant Officer, unless you'd kicked a Squadron Commander in the shins, or something. (pause)
DG: And er, 101, and that was at Ludford Magna?
RA: That's correct.
DG: And what type of aircraft were you flying there?
RA: Lancasters
DG: Can you tell me just a little bit about your dialy life at the base? What, what did you do?
RA: Not a lot. I'm blowed if I know. I often think about that. (DG laughs) I don't think we did much at all. Unless the, the, the unit was shut down because there was going to be an operation on, and the mess was closed twelve hours before that, I believe it was twelve hours, I think we used to hang about the hut, or talk, or play cards. Occassionally, if we weren't wanted, we'd go into Louth, er, for a few drinks. But, I can't remember what we did normally, other than that.
DG: The rest of your crew, were they, er what nationalities were they?
RA: An English captain, English engineer, I had an Australian navigator, me wireless operator, a Canadian bomb aimer, and two Scottish gunners, mid upper and rear.
DG: I believe that Ludford Magna wasn't, the airfield, wasn't very well drained.
RA: I don't remember, the strip itself was bitumen, I know that, but off the- I think it was commonly called Mudford Magna. Mudford Magna, because it was pretty sloppy, I clearly remember that.
DG: What sort of problems did that cause?
RA: The same problems as slopping about in muddy circumstances normally.
DG: And I understand that there was a fog dispersal system that was initiated there, or trialed.
RA: Yeah. They were still testing it. After May the eighth when the war was finished in Europe, I recall that aircrew was called upon, I think more than one day, to do circuits and bumps and testing this FIDO thing, Fog Intesnsive Dispersal Of, um FIDO, and it was a system where there were two pipelines, one on each side of the runway, and at intervals, at least, the pipelines had oil in them, I presume, wouldn't have been petrol, would have been oil, and they were lit, and the idea was so that if there was a fog the heat would disperse the fog. But I remember that on a couple of foggy days we were given the task of trying this thing, or testing it, or anyway, it hasn't, it couldn't have been a great success because I don't remember ever hearing of it being used anywhere else.
DG: So how, there were lines along the side of the airfield.
RA: Two pipes along the strip.
DG: And, obviously outlets for the oil. How did, how was that lit?
RA: No idea. No idea, I was concerned with, you know, getting set up to do my part on the aircraft while somebody else did that. Some of the ground staff, no doubt, were handling that while we did what we had to do.
DG: If it was a day where you were going to fly a mission, presumably that night, what was that day like, what, what was your routine then?
RA: Well, I can't clearly remember then because, you know, I only did, according to the log book, which is long since list because I, we've moved, according to my log book I only officially did one operation.
DG: Ah, right.
RA: And, er although there was some discussion about that, they wouldn't let us count a couple which we did (pause) which the Flight Commander or Squadron Leader said, no, they didn't count, but anyway. So I have very little memory of what we did, what the day was like. I remember that we had to be at the briefing at a certain time, I remember that we had to pick up our parachutes, I remember being driven out to the aircraft, I remember that we would have been er, you know, I remember putting on my harness, the parachute harness, I can remember putting on my Mae West, and I can remember standing up when the officer came in to brief us, and lots of funny little things, but er, what I clearly remember though on coming back, that was the important, well perhaps before, the important part for me was that we got a little, a ration to take with us on the aircraft for when we were flying, so we had something to nibble, you know, something to eat, whether it was a sandwich, or also Mars bar, and of course I'd never seen a Mars bar, because we didn't have Mars bars in Australia pre-war, that I ever saw, and as a kid I knew a lot about lollies, and so the Mars bar became very important, and that was where I was introduced to them.
DG: Can you remember what the target was?
RA: Yeah, Rotterdam. We were dropping food at Rotterdam.
DG: Ah, right. At what, well what, what, do you remember the date? Or month, year, whatever?
RA: Yeah, it was May the seventh, nineteen forty five.
DG: Ah right. So yes, that would have been very near-
RA: I can clearly remember part of the briefing was that if you fired, er if you were fired on you're not to return the fire, the gunners were not to return the fire, because we were only at five hundred feet, or thereabout, five hundred seems to stick in my mind, which seems pretty low. But I clearly remember as we crossed the Dutch coast, I was standing in the astrodome and shortly after that, and I could see the German light arm placements along the top of a dyke. They were looking at us, and we were looking back at them, sort of thing, but we'd been instructed that we wouldn't be fired on, but in the event that we were the gunners were not to return fire, which er, you know, I didn't approve of much, and nor did the gunners, but nobody fired on us anyway.
DG: Oh that was just as well, it would have made things a bit difficult under those circumstances. There were some, some people who, who had bad nerves, did you ever, and they, they were, they might have said they couldn't, didn't want to fly a mission, or something, and they were accused of having a lack of moral fibre. Did you come across any of that?
RA: When we, when we were at operational training in Scotland we had initially an Irish bomb aimer, and suddenly he seemed to disappear and he was replaced by a Canadian, a Canadian bloke, and it was always a mystery to me because it all, all happened so quickly, and I have since reflected on it and thought well, maybe he did turn it in then because we were constantly asked, or told, that if we didn't want to go on, now was the time to stop. 'Cause later on, you know, would be no good. You'd be letting the other fellows down.
DG: Yes. Yes. Did you, did you? So you didn't have any real first hand knowledge of that?
RA: No.
DG: No. Did you hear about, hear any stories about -?
RA: Ah, we heard stories about it, yes.
DG: How were they treated?
RA: Oh, pretty badly, you know, they weren't shot, but, you know, they were, lost their rank, and were sort of drummed out of the, out of the service, well out of sight anyway. Yes it was well known that if you went LMF you were in big trouble. Yeah.
DG: So, you didn't er, your mission was (pause) pretty uneventful, nothing -
RA: Pretty uneventful except that we were dropping, amongst other things, bags of flour, which was very exciting, but no, we were pretty low, and as we, they, they weren't too sure that when the bomb aimer released flour as he would release the bombs, they didn't seem to be too sure it would release properly, and my job that day, I'd been given a sort of a toggle. I had to lie on the floor of the aircraft as we approached the field that we were dropping the stuff in, and if they thought, if it held up, I was to work this toggle somehow to make it release, and I remember lying on the floor and when the bags of flour hit the airstream the, the, the flour all, well you know what flour's like, it went everywhere and I was covered in flour from the top of my head to the tip of my toes.
DG: Presumably some of the bags got out alright.
RA: They all got out, but it was the rush of air, you know, flour goes everywhere, you can imagine dropping a bag a flour, it hitting a gale.
DG: They weren't in some sort of canisters or anything?
RA: No, just hessian.
DG: But-
RA: We were very low. We were very low, we were right down below the five hundred feet.
DG: Oh, right. Ok.
RA: We were down below the height of the spires and the buildings.
DG: Oh, I see. But still, you know, a bag of flour hitting the ground, even from that height- (unclear, talking over one another)
RA: But when it hit the flip, the slipstream, I can tell you, it went, (chuckles) didn't burst a bag but-
DG: Oh, I see, the bag, yeah, oh, right, because some gets through the hessian. Yes, of course, I see. It's not the (unclear) it's not airtight, I see. Did you drop anything else, or was it just-
RA: No. Well, there may have been, but it was the flour that got me.
DG: Did you see people out coming to-
RA: Oh the field, the edge of the field was stacked with people. Crowds, of people. So certainly saw people, yes. Apart from the Germans we'd seen, we saw.
DG: Were Germans still at their post?
RA: Yes, yes.
DG: They'd just been told to stop firing? They hadn't been-
RA: The armistice hadn't been settled, you see.
DG: Yes, so they hadn't actually been officially captured or under control of-
RA: No, they were debating, they were debating the terms, I suppose.
DG: And it was just a ceasefire.
RA: They were debating what was to happen and there was a ceasefire.
DG: Yes.
RA: Which was a good thing, I suppose, from my point of view.
DG: Oh yes, you'd have been, you'd have really been a sitting duck.
RA: Well, we probably wouldn't have been doing it, at that height, anyway.
DG: Yes, yes. So ah, did, did you, when you were, do, on that mi, on that flight, on that mission, did you know that, that would be the last one you'd fly?
RA: No, no. No.
DG: You didn't know?
RA: No, we got out of the aircraft when we got back in the afternoon, and the groundcrew said, 'the war's over'. It had by then been announced. The armistice was-
DG: You had flown some other missions? That weren't counted? What were they?
RA: Well, we don't know, we were told, we just flew down over France somewhere. I think they were diversions of some sort.
DG: Oh, I see.
RA: You know, making the Germans think there was going to be an attack there, or an attack here. But anyway, they didn't let us count those.
DG: And did anything happen on those?
RA: Ah, no, we saw other aircraft, other Lancasters, which at one stage I remember we were tri- we were having our first experience of a thing called Fishpond, which I was operating, which was a screen which, with wiping, there was sort of a wiper going round at all times. It was supposed to pick up any other aircraft, beneath you, of course, wouldn't do it above, and I remember operating that. It wasn't very efficient. I remember saying to the gunners, 'look I can see something that looks to be suspicious'. I've forgotten whether it was below us or off to one side. But they said, 'ah, yes, it's another Lancaster. We've been watching it for ten minutes', so, you know, I was pretty slow on the Fishpond (chuckles). Anyway.
DG: But of course in those days that sort of technology was all very new, and it wasn't terribly easy to operate, or accurate or, I don't suppose.
RA: No. I seemed to be seeing things all the time, you know (chuckles) I suppose being a bit nervous.
DG: So when, when you'd flown your last mission, erm, what happened to you after that?
RA: Erm, some weeks later we were, we officially came out, see we'd been testing FIDO, we'd, I think we'd ferried an aircraft up to Lossiemouth, er, for, we'd taken an aircraft up to Lossiemouth, and then we brought it back with a couple of other crews that had also taken a couple of aircraft up there. And the RAAF announced, we were told that Australian, all the Australian air force, or air crew, were to be grounded, and they were calling for volunteers to form an Australian squadron to go to Burma. And you could volunteer for that squadron, or you could wait and get the troop ship home, and then go North, because the Japanese war, the Pacific war was still on. So I though, no, I been away from home now for, you know, sort of, eighteen months, more or less, I thought well I'll go home first and then let them do what they want to do with me.
DG: One fellow told me that some people in Bomber Command had received white feathers from the people in Australia. Did you ever hear about that?
RA: No.
DG: No. When you, when did you come back to Australia?
RA: October nineteen forty five.
DG: And what, what happened to you then?
RA: I was sent, I was given leave, told to report after about two or three weeks to Sandgate, RAAF Sandgate holding unit, and I was discharged. December nineteen forty five.
DG: And what did you do then? What did you do for work?
RA: I went back to work.
DG: Right.
RA: We were offered a rehab course, I took a rehab course, in accounting, so, and that was by correspondence so that took me, that was forty five, that took me another five years to complete that, night time, part time, an so on.
DG: Right. And where did you meet your wife?
RA: At work.
DG: Ah, right. What, what, so you, you an accountant or?
RA:Well, I was doing my accountancy, but I was working for a company that sold machines that did accounting, you know, they were accounting machines. Machinery that could handle ledgers, and most accounting is a ledger, so I was working for them, and she was working for them, and there we are (chuckles).
DG: And do you keep in touch with any people from Bomber Command?
RA: They're all gone, they're all gone, as far as I can see. The only had one, the only one in Australia was the navigator, he did, I probably shouln't mention his name, he did law, he'd been a policeman, he did law, and I picked up the paper one day, The Australian, and here his name was, he'd, he'd tickled the trust fund, I believe, so I think he finished in gaol.
DG: Oh dear. How did you, how were you treated after the war? As being with Bomber Command
RA: Alright. No problems.
DG: Yeah, yeah, right. Well thank you very much. That's much appreciated.
RA: Oh, pretty easy, pretty painless.
DG: Thank you.
RA: Not very interesting.
DG: Always interesting. Finish.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAllenRM160809
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Richard Murray Allen
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:28:57 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Donald Gould
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-09
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Murray Allen was born in Queensland, Australia. He joined the Air Training Corps and later volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force on his eighteenth birthday. He trained as a wireless operator in Australia, before being posted to England, where after further training, he flew one operation with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna. He went home to Australia in October 1945, before being discharged in the December that year.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04
1945-05
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Adams
101 Squadron
aircrew
FIDO
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Oxford
promotion
RAF Bottesford
RAF Kinloss
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Windrush
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/248/3396/ADownesS160806.1.mp3
ed272f76a7ad055f3dc1f08217bda59c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Downes, Steven
Steven Downes
S Downes
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Steven Downes (430647 Royal Australian Air Force).
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Steven Downes and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Downes, S
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SD: Can I take you back to the word go. I always wanted to join the air force and at sixteen joined the Empire Training Course subsidiary. Air Training Corps it was called, at sixteen. So we stayed going to school, high school until I was eighteen. Then went into the air force and more or less did all the elementary things again back at Bradfield Park when we went there. So that’s my story starts.
AP: That’s where it starts. Alright.
SD: 1943.
AP: So this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Steve Downes who was a wireless operator.
SD: Correct.
AP: In Bomber Command during World War Two. It is the 6th of August 2016. The interview is taking place in Steve’s place, at Steve’s house at Preston Bay.
SD: Thornbury.
AP: Thornbury. I was close. North. It’s all the same.
SD: North Thornbury actually.
AP: My name’s Adam Purcell and we may as well start from the beginning Steve if you don’t mind. Can you tell me something of what you were doing before the war?
SD: I was, I was working as a wages clerk at Raymond’s in Collingwood. Webbs of Abbotsford. And I was just doing the wages clerks there every, every week. [unclear] back in those days. And we had I was set up wages clerk for the whole factory. And this was a good, a pressured job. I had to get it right every every Thursday night to collect the money on the, on the Friday morning and then put it in envelopes. So that was my start as a, before that I’d been, worked in a [pause ] a roustabout boy if you like in a mercers office shop in [indecipherable] Then I went to Raymond’s. I was apprentice devil there. Ordered all the paper for the purchase and finally I got up to be the clerk in the wages department. And eventually when the men there went into the army I moved up as the chief. So that’s briefly how I started off. And from there I went to — in Sydney. I went to Bradfield Park and did a two month course there testing the [pause] the skills of of mass of aircraft reconnaissance [unclear] Drill. Lots of drill. A few games of basketball which I’ve never seen down here. Of course in New South Wales it was rugby as far as they was concerned. That didn’t grab me at all. It wasn’t football. It was running ball. I got through that alright. Went up to — came home. Oh God. No, we didn’t come home. Went to Parkes in the middle of New South Wales. We were there for a few months training as a wireless operator. Well, I had done some Morse code back as a trainee in the Air Training Corps. It was still hard to get but eventually it twigged. I mean twigged. But two fellows I always, they both failed. One was, he’d been a leaving certificate. Me, I was a Melbourne High School boy. Only got as far as year ten. And so those two chaps went to England as air gunners because they didn’t qualify as a radio operator. So being a wireless air gunner here in Australia worth really both jobs up north. They sent me off to England which was where I wanted to go in the first place. So I ended up over there. Again more, more training. And one of the tricks as I’m trying to remember is we were down on the promenade outside the Metropole Hotel or the Grand. I’m not sure which one was now, hotel in Brighton and we were taken out every morning. Morning drill by a guardsman. A former guardsman. Anyway, he gave us the changing step on the march. What a mess it was. Everyone did it differently. We didn’t do any good. Everyone laughed at us. I say most people laughed because I couldn’t help myself for laughing because it was so ridiculous and I was only nineteen. So it was all a game. It was. And from there we went up on leave in Wolverhampton. We were there with some people for three weeks or two weeks. Two weeks. Then back to Brighton. And because D-Day was about to start which we didn’t know but we knew it was coming. Something would be coming up. We were put back to a staging camp not far from Wolverhampton [pause] No, no. Yeah. A staging camp. All of us. So here we were. About a hundred or three hundred of us all stuck there. Nothing’s happening because there were four lots of aircrew there and we, while we were there they sent us off on a course up at North Shields and we did some shooting on a range with a Sten gun and also gave us a [pause] we were in, we were in these, these acquired houses. No. Acquired is the wrong word. Something like that. Acquired houses. And from there we went on a game, or I call it a game because we were all supposed to group as a group supposed to get to the final part by means of various pickups and all that sort of thing. Find, find the [pause] what? Yeah. Just find the place where finalising was happening. I said that before we started, ‘Do you want to win this?’ I said. They said yes. So we commandeered a car, and the lady there took us in a car to the next point and the rest came along in a bus. And I [unclear] the next, cabbed to the next place and we were also going on a bus there and some, some of them were riding on the back of hay carts. Another air group who were on the bus. From there we had to walk over the fields to the final meeting place and we went there. We went there. Which was good because we took this two groups at the second last meeting place. So we took off from there in a group across the fields, bulls not withstanding, went across the fields, over the gates. And we went straight as if going around the quick way. So we went. We got there before the other crowd. So we were the first there.
SD: Was that an escape sort of exercise was it or —
AP: Yes. Or seeing if you could map read. All that sort of thing you see. So we did that. Went back to North Shields by bus or we marched back. I don’t think we did. I can’t remember that now. So yes. And from there we went back to [pause] North Shields. I can’t remember. We went back to where I was. Met a chap there. I’d been dancing and I came back home walking across the street and it was his street. He came up behind me and said, ‘Would you like some supper?’ I said, ‘Yeah. I’d like some supper.’ So it was an experience. All this was at initial training but no sign of the staging. We were just waiting. So I met a girl there. [unclear] he invited me into his home to have bacon and eggs, I know it was something like that which was a big deal back then. It was all rations and everything. So she played the piano because I was invited back for dinner. She played the piano then. She’s since died. She went back to Malaysia. Her boyfriend was in the foreign [pause] foreign what’s the right word. The scope of doing some work in Malaysia. Probably to do with rubber. I can’t remember now because I never met him. Anyway, she took a girlfriend with her when we went to the movies so that was good. So eventually we went from there back to Brighton. And I was in 38 course and I think we were, I ended up with 41 course. I got three courses when I studying for the Morse code but I picked up my pass and passed through and that served me alright. I liked that. Eventually the radio went alright. I eventually acquired a bit of a skill to operate it. Not at any great speed but just operating. And from there we were [pause] oh yes we were sent to a place called Halfpenny Green. And that was where that lady in the hotel charged the duke of [pause] one of the dukes, there was a war going on so she fed all the horses at a halfpenny each. That was the thing. Different to Ireland. They’ve got a bridge there. Halfpenny Bridge. So there we were. It seemed like, to be about four months we were there I think. And we finally, having passed the course we were due to come home at Christmas ’43 and because we would have been on a train overnight I organised a taxi and there was five of us in a taxi. We reached Cootamundra the night before. Caught the train down so I was home for Christmas. There was, all this was all pre-Bomber Command but still. I went from home for three or four days leave or something like that. Then up to Sale to do the gunnery side of it. No dancing there. It was all fields and not many girls. So the dancing had to wait until I got back to, to Melbourne and off to England. So what are we up to? Ok. We were at, we were a long while at Church — no. Church Broughton. Yes it was. Church Broughton where we crewed up. We went to Glenfield Park first which was Lichfield. Lichfield. Where I got another uniform because I’d worn the bottom out of mine. I was at [pause] what do you call it? Where is the nearest to Park? Church Broughton, as a crew and from there we — we were at Lichfield first. Then we transferred to a satellite airfield for Lichfield. We spent a lot of time there skilling up to four engine aircraft. Big ones. Not the, not the Avro Ansons that we’d been flying which the wings flapped as you went. And I spent a lot of time there. And then we went to Bottesford. Bottesford was where we had our first trip was by Lancaster from there out across the North Sea. We had an experienced pilot familiarising our flight. This Scotty. Scotty. Our pilot. Well, Lachie was our pilot and all the others were there except the engineer. So we sort of got a little bit of time on Lancasters there. Not long because the war was going on. They were marching up through into, into, up through France. Up and through Belgium then. So we were pretty free of any danger coming up from the ground like. We were told not to fly over there. It was still risky. And so we were in Church Broughton [pause] That’s my son Adam. Adam. Meet Adam. Two Adams.
[recording paused]
SD: Where am I up to?
AP: Where were we? We were at Church Broughton I think.
SD: Church Broughton. Then we went to Bottesford, and from Bottesford we did a lot more flying from there as a, as a crew. And I was there and then the war finished [laughs] So we were there, fully trained, nowhere to go. So they said everyone goes on leave. We went for a fortnight’s leave and by that time I’d met a girl. I was in their home quite a bit of time. Being a wireless operator I guess you were sitting in a little closed off section. You couldn’t see out. You didn’t see a thing. There was no window. You just sat there and looked at a screen, and what they call listening out for signals coming through. And just going out on these training trips. From there we went out again to various places. Around England mostly. One of the, one of the trips home, so my pilot tells me, he didn’t tell us because he was told not to tell us we were followed in by a German night fighter. And the, the [unclear] the reason about this, it was dangerous, and the base phoned through by telegraph to the, and said, ‘We’re being followed.’ Before he finished the message about we were being followed they said, ‘Ten thousand feet, angels high. Get out of it’ In other words get away. So that was one of those night fighters that were coming over and shooting down planes coming in to land when they were most at a disadvantage because everyone is tired and all that sort of thing. So we got down alright from there. But the war finished. And that was before the war finished. Now, all this time I’d been to lots of dances. A lot of the fellas were going to the pubs. I didn’t like the pubs. I wasn’t a drinker. I was happy with cups of tea at home. Anyway, yeah I went to [unclear] and met another girl. And her father was a policeman. I didn’t know at the time but it didn’t take him long before I knew he was a policeman. And I used to spend some nights there. This is way back at Church Broughton. Some nights there. I got to know the son there and the mum and dad. I was, I was made very welcome there which suited me because I was a home bloke. I wasn’t a fly by night fella. I didn’t go to many dances there. I know I went to a village one before I met this girl. Anyway, when the war finished and had to go on leave I went back there for leave which was alright. Now, as far as experiences now back to the air force days. The main one was that following by the fighter, night fighters. There were various other times when we were lucky as we were training. I was taken out by [pause] we were training in the Morse code. We were training flying so that navigators being acclimatized and we got lost one night. I didn’t know anything about it until the plane went there. We went through a hole in a clouds. We went through the hole and found out where it was. The pilot. We were over Wales and he recognised the big mountain there. I knew they were there, they came back when he came back he wasn’t he couldn’t get the wireless to operate. His wireless as it were. He couldn’t get that to work. So I used the Morse code and got us down from ten thousand, a thousand, that’s right ten thousand, brought us down to a thousand through the cloud to where the field was. So we landed alright there eventually. So again we were out of that. And mostly we were there over Christmas. Over Christmas ’44 that would be. I got on my bike and rode up to people that used to be in Australia at their home for Christmas Day. After Christmas Day I rode my bike about eighteen miles. I got on my bike and rode all the way up there to Flint in North Wales. And from Flint I went to a dance there. Where he was, the son, selling the house sale. Now, other experiences are mostly wrapped around not very big experience in the aircraft. Mostly off, off the aircraft on the ground. And nothing exciting happened except my dancing and keeping fit. Oh we played soccer over there and basketball and down in the field [unclear] and of course they were fields, not paddies. No. I can’t tell you much more than that. Rocky, our — for the formation of the crew for me was most significant. We were, there was about a dozen of us. We were in our training place not far from Wolverhampton. Not far from Stourbridge. And we, yeah [pause] So we did the Morse code to get, to get us back down. What else?
AP: Can you tell me —
SD: Oh Lachie. Yeah. Lachie. That arose when we went to Lichfield as a group. We were in the crew in Lichfield and we did a bit of drill there did a little bit of waiting around and we then paraded for selection of a crew. So there was twelve of us and each one of the pilots picked up a fellow as a, as a, as a navigator, a bomb aimer and I was a wireless air gunner but I didn’t have to fit that because I had two, eventually had two. A mid-upper and a rear gunner in, in the Lichfield and we were meant to be selecting a pilot. The pilot selected us. There was a group of pilots come down along the line and I was the last on the end of this line. So Lachie had never picked anyone and he was, he was left with me [laughs] So that was my luck. I get Lachie. My pilot was Lachie McBean and we spent about [pause] no we didn’t go on any air flights from there. Yes we did. We flew Stirlings. Big aircraft. A big tail. Stirling. From there we went to Church Broughton. There we were on our up to a point. Always had the radio to get us out trouble. And we did some long flights from [pause] no. Lichfield. Which one. From Bottesford. We had some long flights from Bottesford. Overnight. Mostly night flying because we were Bomber Command. Night flying. And from the night flying we had a few scares in as much as we got lost once that I didn’t know about. We were followed in. Because I’m in this little cubicle I didn’t know what was going on. All the others knew because he was on touch with base on his radio telephone and was told he had ten thousand and that was involved with flying Lancasters. The best time was had with Lancasters, at that time was the most beautiful aircraft I’d flown in. It was a lovely four big powerful Rolls Royce engines. I thought it was great. But then I was sitting there nothing to see. Once I was going on a long trip I got up out of the, out of my seat and where the radio equipment was and I got the mid-upper, the mid-upper gunner to swap places in as much as he didn’t have the radio but I did. But as I got up there and had a look outside. Only time I did with the big crew but fired a few shots way over a field. Just so as I’d fired a gun. Once anyway.
AP: Yeah.
SD: And so that was about my experience. We were sent on leave and we were told while we were off the station get a job. Something I could have when I went back to Australia. Well clerical works was still operated by the ladies and women. Fellows like me didn’t get a job that was permanent. So I ended up getting a job working in a brewery there in Derby. A brewery. And what we were doing was rolling barrels around but we had a morning tea of beer. We had an afternoon tea of beer [laughs] had a lunchtime too if you wanted it. So that was an experience. So afterwards the war was finished by then and some of us men were coming back home. Our crew had broken up. Lachie went one way. When we were at a place near Bottesford we had to throw away our flying gear out in a pile. Getting rid of our flying gear. So we went on leave and I was home with this family. At that stage I was going to bring her home, we hadn’t married but I was going to get her out to Australia afterwards. Well when I got back to Australia Australian girls were different to English girls and — but father had said to me before I left, ‘Don’t bring home an English bride.’ I’d forgotten all about that. So there we had leave there. Went back in November to [pause] where? Warrington. That’s where we were. First station camp. I think we were there. From there we went to Brighton in a big group. They wanted to bring us home to Australia on the Orion. The SS Orion. A big ship. Now, we were taken aboard and our quarters were over the top of mess tables. And they said, ‘You can sleep in the mess or you can sleep on the floor.’ We had officers saying, ‘Don’t stay. It’s not good.’ So we didn’t stay. So it was a bit of a rebellion if you like. A passive one because all, everyone was outside. Everyone who wanted to stay was outside on the wharf. And we there two in a group overnight. We slept on the train or played. The die hards played with the dice. Whatever the dice were. I forget now. And they went through this. Ok. Eventually we went to, I was coming home. At one point we went from Australia, this is coming back now in March ’44. We travelled from Brisbane. We got off at Brisbane. They put us on an American Liberty ship and took us very far down the coast of Australia below New Zealand I’m sure and it was cool, and up the coast. Took us a fortnight to get to San Francisco. We arrived there on the, this was 1944, we were on the, on the wharf in San Francisco. They welcomed, the American band welcomed the Australians there with a [unclear] A story I’d never heard myself before, [unclear] and do si do, a simple memory thing. We travelled over America for five days. We had three days in New York and then went on the Queen Elizabeth to England. We travelled across to Glasgow but we must have gone up to Greenland. Some of our fellows went up on the top deck manning the machine guns up on the top. I didn’t know if they I reckoned I couldn’t shoot much, I suppose. I didn’t end up there. Anyway we got to England. We travelled down. We went to, actually we travelled to Gourock in, just out of Glasgow and then come back down to Brighton by train overnight. And that was a long trip. So we ended up in Brighton overnight. That was earlier on, before all this happened. Anyway, having come back we come back to Brighton. We were going, we were on leave again for a fortnight. And we were brought back to Brighton and eventually put on the [pause] do you know I can forget that. The Stirling Castle. One of the Castle liner ships. Other people had been brought back by the Durban Castle about a month before us. We were on the Stirling Castle and the Orion of course came back to England because something happened to the engines in the Bay of Biscay and they came back. So all the fellas were supposed to go on the trip back on the Orion. Well those Stirling Castle ships, some of the ships came around the Cape through Durban, South Africa. We came through the Mediterranean. We picked up a whole swathe of New Zealanders. Army. They were army fellows. And they must have been down in the hold because we were on decks up on the ship to come home. So it was a seven, seven week trip. Or a six week. I can’t remember now. And we dropped off at Perth. And from Perth where we caught the train from Fremantle into Perth for six hours and back again to catch the ship home. All this is peripheral, got on the ship to Melbourne and all the people from South Australia got off there with us at Melbourne. And my mother and father and my big brother who was a big tall guy arrived on the Station Pier. They were late. They’d been walking on the wharf itself. Other people were up in the, high up in the observation part. A lot of people were up there yelling and screaming. Yeah. Waving. And there was my mum and dad and my uncle and they were late which suited us, suited the party, so. They saw me eventually. I threw my hat down to say. Well there used to be as saying if you threw your hat in your, and it wasn’t thrown out, you were welcome. That was an English trait. And then I came home. And going back to Lachie. We sort of broke up from Bottesford. We all disappeared. The crew disappeared. All different ways. We had two English fellas. Two English fellas went back to, to where they play tennis. They went there, another chap went home to Gloucester. The other two were Scots. They went back to Scotland. Oh [unclear] so that’s about me in the air force I think. About all I can remember. I was not, not real big stuff at all.
AP: There’s, there’s plenty in there.
SD: Yeah.
AP: One thing you mentioned a lot were dances.
SD: Yeah. Right.
AP: Can you tell us some more about the dances in England?
SD: Oh yes. Yeah. Well as much the same as here.
AP: Well, I’ve never been to a dance in the 1940s but you have.
SD: Oh yeah. Well back in those days that was, it was the modern waltz, the foxtrot, a faster dance. And then there was an English dance. You could dance with a whole load of people. You had to know where you were going because you had to do the same thing. You were going backwards and forwards. So that was, that was great because you know it suited me. It was just something I could do and I enjoyed. And of course I had the English ones. I can’t remember now. No. I can’t remember. So yeah, so I enjoyed the dances that I went to. And mostly they were a small group of musicians. It was never played over the radio. It was all by three or more. Went to Derby a couple of times, a few times and stayed overnight in one of the places. So I’d go there on a Saturday, down Saturday night go back to the bed and breakfast in a big place. And the next morning go back to, on a Sunday go back to Church Broughton back then. So yeah dancing was something I enjoyed. [door sliding open] Yes thank you. You want coffee? Tea?
AP: Tea would be nice actually.
SD: Yeah. I used to be in the tax office after the war. Eventually the tax office. I was over there because I had cups of tea. No milk. No sugar. I was welcome because I wasn’t using any part of their —
AP: [unclear]
SD: Would you like a bit of [unclear]
AP: Say again?
SD: Would you like a bit of life into it?
AP: Yeah. That’s alright. Give it a moment.
SD: Yeah. Sorry yes. As I said there were girls there. Even though there were a lot of Americans were around they didn’t go to the same dances I went to. So I was fortunate that way so I always had a girl to dance with. Oh yes, one experiences they were the [emphasis] experiences of my trip over there was we’re at Lichfield. And we’d gone in to town to, to the go to the pubs. From the pubs I was going to the dance. I’d had a couple of drinks down in the pubs then went to the dance hall. Or the big hall. As it turned out there were a lot of girls there. I paid my money and walked in. I looked at all these girls all around. They had seats all the way around. I’m the only fella there. So I walked in and they started playing the music. No one got up to dance. Oh this is silly. I came for a dance. So I picked on a girl on the other side of the room and she must have been fifteen. She was there with her mother. She might have been well lower than that. Might be fourteen. So I picked her up and did the dance with her and that sort of, everyone else got up then. The fella had made up his mind so he got up 10 o’clock, and the pubs shut and they were all coming up from the pub then to the dance hall. And of course the girls had plenty of people to dance with then. So that was [pause] now there was always a girl to take home. Always took a girl except the first dance I went to near Church Broughton. I found out, I found out that I’d been there and I didn’t have the girl out there but strangely enough a fellow said to me thanks for not, thanks for not taking his girlfriend out. At the end of the dance I just went off on my bike back to, back to the camp. Because they were small English village dance. I didn’t get back there but when I was going with a girl later on who was a policeman’s daughter her mother had mentioned that their auntie had said he was, he was at the dance way back. So nothing secret. So that was, that’s another experience I guess. But again nothing, nothing demanding as far as — no action at all. The other fellows got in to action. Went over Germany and got shot down and some walked out. A few walked out and weren’t captured. Another went back through, back through, through Spain and there I was over there dancing with the girls.
AP: So —
SD: I was, I was, no. I came home virtually. I was lucky. And Lachie will tell us the same. Even now he says to me he always regarded himself as being lucky. I do myself feel I was lucky to go all that way. All those miles on water and not be troubled by submarines or anything like that. No foreign aircraft flying over us. So, I was safe in England. I was safe coming back because the war was over. Arrived back home two years since I’d left there. Come back in, arrived back in Australia in 1946 so that’s something. I mean on the trip arriving home. Coming up in the ship that goes up at 3 o’clock in the morning , pack, pack, get packed up ready to go ashore. We come through the Heads, down towards Rosebuds and then up the, up the channel, up to Melbourne. And we passed by Marines Pier and then, and then you could see Melbourne and the Luna Park stood out well. And then we, I can’t remember. We had a, we were towed in, and we were lucky. That’s the way I think of it. I was lucky.
AP: Why did you pick the air force?
SD: What?
AP: Why did you choose the air force?
SD: Because I didn’t want to go in the army. My dad was in the army in the First War and he’d given us stories about that. He was a trumpeter. He was also an artillery man later. And it was, it was a tough life in the army. So I reckoned with the air force you were safe. Home to a bed at night and have three meals a day. And relatively safe. But no we weren’t safe when we got to England. They were lucky to get thirty missions up. Very lucky. Those that went through their first, first flights. Some of them died on their first trip. Like my two mates. They’d become gunners and they crewed up and the last letter I got from him he’d written the words, ‘Hurray we’re flying.’ He posted it and I tore it up which I shouldn’t have done because it was his last letter ever. What else is there?
AP: What, what can you tell me about the enlistment process and interview or a medical or something that you had to do to get in to the air force?
SD: Yeah. Again it was easy. I already had a uniform. I got a uniform for twelve months in the Air Training Corps until about the February 23rd, I guess. All my stuff’s in the back there. The 23rd we went into train from Spencer Street to Bradfield Park overnight. So, I wanted to be in the air force because I wanted to be a fighter pilot. We all wanted to be fighter pilots. Young and silly. Anyway, at the end of our time in Bradfield Park I wasn’t sure if we were two months or when. It was a week before a category selection board where they chose people for pilots, navigators and gunners, radio operator. The gunnery came along later. So we went to Parkes and I spent my last two months, three months there before I got the taxi home. that’s about all. Anything else I could help you with?
AP: Yes. Plenty. What about the first time you ever went in an aeroplane? What did you think?
SD: Before that I’d already been on an aircraft at Essendon. A de Havilland aircraft. Room for about four or five passengers. I went for a flight from Essendon down surround around towards St Kilda. South Melbourne. And then I went in the air force. The first trip in an aeroplane in the air force at Parkes. We did our training there on single, single engine Wacketts. I think it was Wacketts and did the basic radio work from there. And eventually at Parkes we all had to get to twenty five words a minute in speed. Like my two friends didn’t make it, although he’d been in the Air Training Corps before, one of them [unclear] from Sydney. And he was a beautiful dancer and he was, he could run like the wind too. We both were going out that night to [unclear] because it was cold. We were going home to people. I wanted to go home with the girls to meet their family, and then go back for a cup of tea or sit by the fire. You see, looking after the young men pretty well. So that happened in Parkes. It didn’t happen in Sale. What else is there? Went, went to Brighton and at Brighton we danced at [pause] the Pavilion I think we called it. It’s where the King George the third built this big palace with towers and everything. Chinese influence. So we’d go to the dances there. I went once, got a girl to take home and that night the German bombers came over the top and we were in the street so we didn’t hear from any, that was the closest [unclear] they didn’t drop any bombs over us but they shot, someone shot down a German fighter because they crash landed. He was shot. He ended up in a cemetery on the top of the tombstones if you like. And the other time I went home. Something else. No. It’s gone out of my head. You won’t bring it back.
AP: What, what were your early impressions of wartime England?
SD: Everyone seemed to be alright. They were fed but only just. They [pause] and as I said with the dances went to most places where there was a tourist sort of thing. I got on my bike. Oh yes, the chap had got, where I went, he was a mate eventually I asked him get me a radio and get me a bike. They were two things I needed. I had twenty five pounds, English pounds then, and so I used to ride my bike to these dances. So I had the means of moving around and a radio of course. I had all the music I wanted. In the hut. No one objected to the radio going.
AP: What sort of radio was it?
SD: The one sitting outside under the house that’s been pulled down since then. It was called a lease lend. Lease lend radio. Wooden. Wooden. Wooden casing around the radio. It’s been it was home for a while. Came to my brother in law up the road and from there back here. Not a very powerful one. Had to break the temperature down. Had to break the voltage down from 240 to 120. So it had a [pause] had a power cord to the plug back this way to the unit at 120 by the time it got across there. And that meant it was Americanised. And they operated at 120 rather than 240. Now luckily I stayed mostly in the country with these people. And they seemed to be managing on what they had. As I said a cup of tea. No milk. No sugar. That was a big plus. And no tea except when it went in the water. That’s about all. So England was doing very well as far as their civilian population was concerned. And this was long before I met Lachie. Because when we crewed up when I go back a bit there when we crewed up from Lichfield and they decided, the crew decided we were going to go to the homes of the other members of the crew. So we went up to Scotland and a place called Burntisland which is just across the bridge from Edinburgh. And from Edinburgh we went across to Glasgow, or near Glasgow. A place called Stepps which is a throwaway. From there we came back. We didn’t go to any more. Oh yes we went down to where they play tennis. Must have gone before. Where they play tennis. Do you remember?
AP: Wimbledon.
SD: Wimbledon. Yeah. Close to Wimbledon, that’s right.
Other: [unclear] country.
SD: Nothing. No. Nothing.
Other: Supplement their diet.
SD: They were lucky to live in the country. Yes. They had all those sort of things. The people I was staying with they were, their great grandmother, grandparents lived in the village further down towards the river. While I was there I did a little bit of work with the son of the household and I helped him with his electricity. I helped him with that. They were always had plenty of eggs. And the rest. I didn’t eat much when I was there. I still don’t eat much. No. There’s not much. Not much there to put in a story. Sounds like a long story but a story about coming back here. I always have read the births and the deaths part in the newspaper and lo and behold there was a McBean. Now that was very foreign to me. McBean. And sure enough it said Lachlan [unclear] and sure enough his name was Lachie as the husband. Lachie. So it rang a bell with me. We organised it through the through the, through the funeral people. And said was he a pilot or anything like that and it turns out he was. So, I wrote. I wrote him a card of sympathy which, it’s not good to lose your wife so young. There you go. She was [unclear] Anything else? Oh yes. We went to Wimbledon and stayed overnight there and then back up to camp again. Went back to Lichfield. So that was an incident in the air force. Nothing dangerous about getting on a train or, train travel was pretty easy really for fellas like myself. We went as a group. Went as a flight or unit. [unclear] we just a group of air force bloke so we could travel anywhere. We didn’t seem to put anyone out or anything like that and the people I stayed with were pretty well organised. But the people in the city they would have suffered. As I say I stayed in a place where they could grow some vegetables themselves.
AP: So you were saying about Lachie. About sending him a card.
SD: Oh right. Yeah. Ok. Yes. That notice was in the births and deaths. My daughter, Suzanne rang the, the funeral people to find out if he was a pilot and he was a pilot so it must have been him. So I wrote him a card of condolence. Condolences because he’s lost his wife. And I knew damned well how he’d be feeling because I’d lost my wife some several years before. She was in a nursing home. Went through dementia stage. [unclear] So went up there. Went on the 26th of April last year. Yeah. 26th April last year after Anzac Day and he was pleased to see me because he thought I was dead. I’d been killed in a motorbike accident or something like that. That’s, that’s how I got to know him because he rang me back then over the phone and we organised we’d go and have a day. We’d meet up there the following Sunday as a reunion. So there we were after seventy years of not knowing where either of us were. And there we were. So that was a gift from a higher higher people upstairs.
AP: A couple, a couple more questions if you’re, if you’re still happy to —
SD: Yeah.
AP: Keep answering them. Just interested, your story of the radio sparked off a bit of a memory for me because —
SD: Oh yeah.
AP: Because another pilot I knew had a radio as well but I was never able to ask him about it. So what sort of music were you listening to?
SD: Oh modern stuff. I was never interested in the classical stuff then. It was all the dance music and all that [coughs] which fitted in with the dances. I used to like to listen to the big bands. To Glenn Miller bands. Tommy Dorsey and his brother’s bands. Who else? Stand. No. I can’t remember [coughs] Yeah. So used to listen to all the big bands and the other music that we played. Mostly American music.
AP: There was a lot of that on, on the radio?
SD: Yeah.
AP: Did you have that to listen to.
SD: Yeah. Much the same as young people here listen to the radio now. Music I don’t like particularly. But then I came home and my parents would have said, ‘Turn that off.’ Because I was dancing. I was listening to dance music rather loudly which [coughs] which suited, which suited me because I was, I enjoyed dancing. I enjoyed that music. And they actually took me to a stage show [pause] and that was where? It must have been His Majesty’s then. I can’t remember now. That was after I came home.
AP: And you continued dancing when you got home as well.
SD: Oh yeah.
AP: OK.
SD: Yeah. I met another girl up in Sale. That was alright. She was a schoolteacher up there. She has since died. At the time we had fairly, got on pretty well together. Then I met my present wife Lola. She’s still here. In ‘46. And from her, meeting her I was then a member of their wedding party at their marriage in ’48. And then we were married in 1949. So here again we had the band with quite a number of this band and that was at Tudor Court. Reception. We were married in All Saint’s Church down in South Yarra.
AP: So just moving back to England just briefly can you tell me about VE day? What if any experiences did you have then?
SD: You got it right. It was the VE day. So [pause] I can’t remember. I don’t think it was at the camp. It must have been sort of celebration at the air force station Bottesford then. So I got on the train and went back to a place where she was at. The family I was living with. I was back there. Do you want some more tissues?
AP: No. No. That’s alright. I’m good.
SD: At Church Broughton so that wasn’t far out of Derby. A place called Hatton. H A T T O N. I spent a fair bit of time there. Hatton. Of course the trip into Derby took a long, travelling around by bus, took a long, fairly long time so it was quite handy having a girlfriend near the station and I stayed there some nights in the, with her mother and father and the son at the time. I was in a double bed with the son. That was before the war. That was before we went to to Bottesford. So that was alright. So the son of the house then went to, up country to do some clerical electrical work up country. So I had the bedroom to myself then. But I was pretty green. Young and not very bright family wise or anything like that but I knew they were looking after me pretty well so I still stuck with it and the dances.
AP: What did you do after the war, Steve?
SD: I came back to Australia. Went back to the old job. Job. Like most people went back to the same. The old job then. If they were lucky. But I was there twelve months and then I put up a shilling a day away for my time in the service. So I I can’t remember how much you got. It was a shilling a day and maybe in twenty days I got a pound back then. I was, I had worked that out. Worked out alright. Now, so I didn’t [pause] I came back to that job. Then I went into a business. A trucking business. With a chap that I met through a fellow at work. And the two of us went into partnership in this big truck. A Studebaker. And we were carting wood from [unclear] back to Melbourne. I know I learned to drive virtually on the truck because my uncle had said to me, ‘You’ve got to learn to drive.’ So he was teaching me. Learning to drive. And it’s amazing that in the air force days we had these guys who had never driven anything before in their lives piloting big heavy aircraft. It’s a bit of a thinking back now they were very brave people. I guess we are too actually. Pardon me. By the fact that we were flying too. Because we lost quite a lot of fellas in aircraft accidents.
AP: Did you ever have anything to do with an accident? Or did you see one?
SD: No.
AP: The aftermath of one or something.
SD: No. Once we, there was half a dozen of us selected to go as pallbearers out of respect of a Polish airman. I can’t remember where. Gloucester I think. Gloucester somewhere. Round about there. And there was a trip down there and drove back. That was all. Took some time to bury him and that was it. It wasn’t really worrying me much because it wasn’t me that was getting buried. So I was rather blasé about it then. I was young and didn’t really know. But it was amazing the number of young people who were all mostly well not more than twenty. My group and then as you got further up the line they were older then. But I was pretty young. Some of the fellas had driven cars and all this sort of thing. Which I hadn’t had the experience. So it was a bit, a bit of an attitude which I didn’t have to to fly or operate machinery. So all I had to do was do the Morse code which eventually of course I got expert at it. And I wouldn’t have been able to pick up messages from ships because they were very fast. Aircraft. At twenty five you were pretty ok. As I say I brought one plane down and through the clouds at ten thousand, nine thousand, eight thousand. Down and we were the last to land. But they were bringing down all the other aircraft down before us. Every Avro Anson and we had an Avro Anson here. I reckoned the wings flapped as it flew. Avro Ansons. And from the Anson we went to Stirlings. From Stirlings we went to the Lancasters.
AP: What was your first impression of a Lancaster?
SD: Beautiful ship. Beautiful. The engine. The engine — I didn’t know much about engines but they sounded great to me. Sounded beautiful. And as far as I was concerned they were invincible. Of course they weren’t.
AP: Yes.
SD: So I enjoyed my time in Lancs. I’m sorry. The tea went down the wrong way before. Have you got any other questions?
AP: How did you live on the, on the station?
SD: Oh. There was a bed. A bed there. Meals there. Lunch as well as morning and evening meals. Yes. When I was there I appreciated that. These fellows that didn’t ever want to stay there very much. I gave up the evening meal. I’d get on my bike and away I went. I didn’t stay around for the groups who were going to the pub anyway. I wanted to go the dances. If there were any dances. On my bike. Other times I would catch the bus in to Stourbridge and go to the dances there. We’d all been warned about the girls that went to the dances in Stourbridge. Keep well clear. Don’t get mixed up with them. You’ll end up with venereal disease. That’s coming from the station commander. So at night there was, there were a few girls there I would take them home after the dance and then back to get my bike and ride back to the camp mostly. Sometimes I went on the bus. Not very often. I rode my bike most of the time. Which was about twelve miles from Halfpenny Green to Stourbridge which was mostly what I did. But went there. I put my bike there on the long grass. A village tree. There used to be long grass everywhere. It wasn’t any danger of getting pinched or anything from there. I knew it was there. Now, I was telling you about the bacon and eggs earlier on when you got on to the bike. I was over there when I first arrived in Warrington which was not far from Flint in Wales. I used to go to Flint by train. I was welcomed there pretty much. We went to a dance there on a Saturday night. I was down at Rhyl which is further along the coast. Always had a group of girls going with the fellas. I lined up with a girl there who was just to kissed them goodnight and away I went because I was living with these people and I didn’t want to be out late or anything like that. So what else was there? That’s about all.
AP: Can you tell me about your bike? Your bike in England.
SD: I wanted a racing bike didn’t I? Didn’t want one of the bikes you see on television there with the handlebars stretching out. Handlebars went down. The fastest bike it was. It was painted black. Earlier it was painted, bikes there were all painted black so there was no glint from the air. Yeah. So I left my bike behind me and I got on a ship to come behind. Come home. And we wrote together for some time and then she realised I was still dancing. She took umbrage about going dancing with other girls. There she was in England at sixteen and a half. She was fifteen when I first met her. And sixteen at a half. Very young. But at the time I didn’t realise. She was four years younger than me. I’m jumping around a bit.
AP: No. That’s fine. That’s the nature of memory. It does tend to jump around and that’s, that’s exactly what we’re after to be honest otherwise you don’t dig in as far as you want.
SD: Well the main thing is I got into the air force. Not the army. And the air force was good to me with three meals a day, training and a bed to sleep in. Which was entirely different than the army. It was great to not be in the army.
AP: What err — yeah go on.
SD: Somewhere on there you’ve got there how I met Lachie. That’s one. The last one of the line. He was the last pilot. I was the last radio operator. He already he had his navigator. He had his bomb aimer. So he was ready. He had three, three members of the crew. And he didn’t get the air gunners until later. In the Stirling. We were flying Stirlings. That was later. At [pause] where was that? I don’t know. I know we flew Stirlings. But I don’t know whether we flew Stirlings or Lancasters at Church Broughton which was close. Fairly close to Derby. I enjoyed my radio. I enjoyed my dancing. And I enjoyed the air force. And I got to a place where I soon woke up to the fact there wasn’t many fellows that made the grade. They, they went out and got killed. Or killed in crashes. Some, some fellas didn’t last. Coming back from Derby this girlfriend when I was getting off the bus and this Australian airman was on the bed in the house. [unclear] he knew before I came along that she told me she when the war had finished and he apparently came back to England. I don’t know whether it was Brighton. Whether he was a prisoner and escaped or was sent home. Anyway she didn’t want anything to do with him so that was a bit of let down for him. Not for me. What else is there? Better stay with your questions.
AP: I’m starting to run out of them actually. [unclear] Alright. What, what for you was the legacy of Bomber Command and how do you want it to be remembered?
SD: The fact we were in the, at Bottesford and heading for, heading for action. Real action. We were this far away from it. We were still flying over Germany. dropping bombs while the ground forces were coming up through France. Up through Belgium and Holland. [pause] So there was no, ok in my way of a young fella thinking I was twenty year old. I was twenty year old then. I think it was from day to day really. So as far as memories are concerned I was just pleased to be in the air force and safer than most days I could get up and I’d be safe. Most days. [pause] One thing I did notice between the two. England where we were living mostly had these ordinary, ordinary people living in houses made of brick. The people I stayed with were in a house in brick. Coming to Australia quite a lot of houses there more so were billboard houses and different to England. They were well built up out Camberwell way. I didn’t know much about that. I was pretty green as far as, in fact I wanted [unclear] we wanted to buy a house when we, when we came home. So yes we did want to buy a house. A lot of people over there wanted to buy a house and of course I didn’t have any money. Well, my mum had been a saviour because I allocated some money for her which she put in her bank and my bank until I came home. Until I wanted the money. And she, she’d actually had this five shillings, five shillings a week for up to two and half. Two, two fifty pounds roughly. So that’s a bit of a plus to come home and you were still getting air force money. We didn’t get flying pay though because when we were in England we got extra money by way of flight pay which was more than the soldiers were getting. All the aircrew. People on the ground floor didn’t get anything. I forget how much it was. So I didn’t want for money ever. There was always some money there. As a matter of fact I lent a chap ten pounds. He came from Sydney. I lent him ten pound. Where? Where? Halfpenny Green. So that was about, about the size of it. I don’t know if you’ve got enough there.
AP: Yeah. I can’t, I can’t think of too much else to ask.
SD: Yeah.
AP: So do you have any final thoughts on Bomber Command in general? How it’s remembered.
SD: As far as I’m concerned Bomber Command — it was, people were getting killed in Bomber Command and it never occurred to me this was the case. I thought it was unending safety at that stage. And as I got closer towards flying on Lancasters I realised it wasn’t a game anymore. It was fair dinkum because I lost two mates. That didn’t, that didn’t mean much to me at the time. They went out on their first flight and didn’t come back. They’re still missing. God knows what happened to them. And I was ok. The air force for me — I was safe. My mother must have worried a fair bit because she, she died in 1948. I was back in 1946 and I was a different bloke living at home to what I was in the air force. Again, I was a bit selfish. I had turned twenty one and I was quite happy about going to dances, playing loud music. Not worrying about mum waiting at home for me because no one had been waiting home for me before. Back to the camp to sleep. So it was a big, big step back to civilian life from air force life. What I’d been doing anyway because my air force life was mostly tied up with working in day time and dancing at night. Obviously at night. But there was never a twenty four hour, a twenty four hour job. It was from 8 o’clock in the morning until about 6 o’clock at night. Then dinner and then back to bed or go dancing. That was all. So all in all because I had this freedom I felt safe whereas in the army you were under threat all the time. And I was told they were fighting the Japanese here and that didn’t grab me one bit. That’s about the size. What else is there? Yeah. I arrived home and I was close to what it was part of must have been part of. 1946 Australia Day holiday which was [unclear] I didn’t know about that. A group of people here wanted me home which I didn’t really want. It was 3 o’clock in the morning. Got out of bed. It’s not my mother got up early to wash my clothes. My grandma got out there and was washing. And my wife, wife my mother went crook because my grandma was doing my washing and my mum was there. That sort of thing went on. Then after that my mother looked after most of my clothes and my mum got the photograph. [unclear] That’s about all. There’s not enough meat there. I went, I went back to the girl’s place. The police sergeant’s home. And Lachie as I found out later went up to Queensland but had been up in Scotland. I didn’t know that. But yeah I found out and after arriving home he went back in Melbourne and then gong to Ballarat. Started two years ago. So that was a bit of an experience. Meeting up with someone who didn’t know what had happened to you in 1946. Here we are in 2006 and it came out of the blue. Seventy years. So that was a big experiences. My daughter wanted to go to further back so she got in touch with Lachie’s girls so the girls fixed up this meeting with going to the Shrine on Anzac Day. After Anzac Day met after Anzac Day up at his new home because he’d given up, he was over seventy like myself, and he stopped farming and passed that on to his son. He lost his wife and he was up there on his own except for the people in the, in the complex. Various small homes. A house but two bedroomed home. A kitchen, dining room and a lounge. And so he come down from his home farm to a home in Ballarat. So that was his thing. It was a big thing after seventy years. Meeting someone right out of the blue like that. Not that we were very close in the air force because he was on the intercom and he’d be speaking to the other members of the crew except me because I wasn’t connected to the system. I was just plugged in to here. Plugged into home base plus I also used to listen to American Forces Network when we were not listening out. So I had modern music as it was then. So yeah. I was lucky. I was lucky to be alive. And there was a lot of fellows came home on the same ship. The Orion. So I was lucky to get through that. So virtually it was 1943 I went into the air force. Late 1943 and was there until April 1946. So what time was that being in the air force. And in that time I got my boat to America. Got to England by boat again. The big ship. So pretty safe. I was lucky enough that my ships weren’t torpedoed or danger of being torpedoed. Which was at the back of your mind when you were travelling by ship. Am I going to be safe? Will I get out of this? No. I never felt that way. I always felt safe in the ships. Whereas when I was flying I always felt safe up there too except [unclear] German fighter followed us home and I didn’t know anything about that. So from, I was lucky from that point of view. I never faced the dangers that I knew about, the bomb aimer and the navigator yes. They did. And we had two gunners by then. The mid-upper gunner he was from, he lived close to Gloucester. And the other fellow was he was an old man of thirty something or other. He lived with his wife in Wimbledon. Wimbledon. So that’s about all. Not too great. Not great. I was lucky to be alive then. I’m lucky to be alive now. So we were going up to Ballarat and then back to the Bomber Command Memorial Service. Yes it was a big experience. And from the point of view of [pause] I was lucky this happened. To have been in Bomber Command. There were fellows there that flew in Bomber Command in England. There’s not many fellows left that had been in Bomber Command. And I was part of Bomber Command but didn’t see any action except a near miss. How about that?
AP: Sounds pretty good to me.
SD: Ok. I don’t know what sort of story you can make out of that.
AP: Thank you very much, Steve.
SD: That’s alright.
AP: It’s been great.
SD: And would you like some tea or some orange?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ADownesS160806
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Steven Downes
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:33:18 audio recording
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Purcell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-06
Description
An account of the resource
Steven Downes grew up in Australia and worked as a wages clerk before he volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force. He arrived in the UK and after spending some time in Brighton, he was posted to Church Broughton and then RAF Bottesford. The war ended before the crew could become operational. He served as a wireless operator. While in the UK Steve loved listening to the big band music on the radio and attended as many dances as he possibly could.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Great Britain
England--Derbyshire
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending OH summary
aircrew
entertainment
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Bottesford
RAF Church Broughton
sport
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/303/3460/AMcPhersonWhiteR150901.1.mp3
0e5df7f42951c97fd20e9aa7362cf89e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
White, Roy
Roy McPherson White
Roy M White
Roy White
R M White
R White
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Roy McPherson White (1925 - 2018, 3006061 Royal Air Force), his log book, Service and Release Book, and five photographs. He joined the RAF in 1943 and after training, served as a wireless operator until 1947.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Roy White and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
White, RM
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Stationed at RAF Yatesbury (No.2 Radio School),
RAF Aqir (No. 76 Operational Training Unit and No. 26 Anti-Aircraft Cooperation Unit), RAF Abu Sueir (1675 Heavy Conversion Unit),
RAF Khormaksar (Aden Communication Flight).
Aircraft in which flown: Proctor, Dominie, Wellington X, Liberator VI, Baltimore, Ventura, Albacore, Beechcraft, Mosquito, Anson.
Roy White was born in Perth, Scotland in 1925. He lived in Scotland until the age of nine, before moving to London, after he received a scholarship to the London Choir. Roy performed with the choir at the 1937 Coronation of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth.
Roy left school at fifteen and went to work in the fabric trade at 16, he joined the ATC as a Volunteer Reserve, before joining the RAF in 1943 at the age of 18.
Roy recalls going to Lords Cricket Ground on the “Hallowed Turf” to join up. Roy was accommodated in some near by flats by the RAF. Roy’s brother was also in the RAF, in Costal Command and was a Navigator.
Roy was stationed at RAF Yatesbury (No.2 Radio School), RAF Aqir (No. 76 Operational Training Unit and No. 26 Anti-Aircraft Cooperation Unit), RAF Abu Sueir (1675 Heavy Conversion Unit), RAF Khormaksar (Aden Communication Flight).
Aircraft in which he flew: Proctor, Dominie, Wellington X, Liberator VI, Baltimore, Ventura, Albacore, Beechcraft, Mosquito, Anson.
At RAF Yatesbury Roy could easily do the required twelve words per minute in Morse code, and had an excellent American trainer who could do forty words per minute, along as sending and receiving the messages. At certain times, Roy was allowed to teach the class, but was mocked by his fellow classmates. Roy also learnt about the different parts of the radio, how to take them apart and fix them, along with how to fault find on the radio. The signaller would receive a message every thirty minutes, on the mission flight. This message could be about the target, or the weather condition, or even to return to base. The radio waves could also be used to help the Navigator find the correct location. As the Signaller was listening out constantly for messages, he wasn’t on the main crew radio.
Roy also learnt how to take a gun apart blindfolded, which he struggled with but found useful. Roy and his best friend Billy failed the initial training exams, and had to resit them, wit the next unit that arrived. While waiting to complete his exams, Roy worked as a porter at the local hospital, moving the wounded solider sent over from France.
Once Roy had passed all his exams and training, on his passing out parade, he borrowed a uniform for the parade. His uniform was having his brevets sown on by a WAAF on the base.
As part of the Air Crew training for a Signaller to correctly use the radio on board. Roy had to learn about the theory of radio waves, and learn to complete different sounds tests, along with the PNB system test.
When training as an Air Gunner, Roy learnt about the different parts of a .303 riffle and did some clay pigeon shooting. He didn’t receive much Air Gunnery training, as he was to fly on B24 Liberators (the main bombers used in the Middle east) and they used .5 guns, which he didn’t train on until he was in the Liberators.
Roy sailed to Egypt via Gibraltar, as he was a trained Air Gunner, the ships Captain on the merchant convoy, appointed him Ships Gunner and told him to expect to fire the guns. Roy did daily four-hour shift, U-Boat watches on the journey.
When Roy finally arrived RAF Abu Sueir, along with all the other crews. They were locked in a hanger for twenty minutes and told to crew up for the Vickers Wellington that they were to fly. Roy joined a crew with four South Africans and two other Scotsman. The South African crew mostly spoke to one another in Afrikaans.
When Roy was training on Wellingtons, due to a fuel tank problem. The Wellington crashed on landing. Roy banged his head on the radio set and was in hospital for a few days. After the crash, they were assigned a new pilot. The rear gunner got stuck in the Wellington, due to the mechanism being broken.
Roy and the crew then converted to B24 Liberators, which he flew until he left the RAF in 1947. After the war he returned back to his pre-war job in fabric, before running a Antiques shop with his wife before retiring.
Daniel Richards
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today I am doing an interview with Roy White and we’re at [redacted] Haunton near Banbury and we are going to talk about his days in the RAF, about how he got to that position and what he did afterwards. So, over to you Roy, if you’d like to gives us your history please.
RW: Right, I was born in Perth, Scotland 1925. I lived there till I was nine years old, then I came to take a recital in London to join a London choir in Margaret Street in London. So I did join the choir at the age of nine and I continued there until I was fifteen. I managed to get into the coronation choir during my experiences there and it was a marvellous experience in actual fact then. When I left the choir I went to the Mercers’ school for a couple of years but I left there and joined a firm that was making fabrics and I was there until I joined up in 1943. I joined up and went to St John’s Wood, Lord’s Cricket Ground on the hallowed turf, we were actually allowed to go across there and we were billeted out in the flats at St John’s Wood from there and kitted out and all the rest. After we’d done all our initial pieces we then went on to Bridgnorth for our initial training wing, which was drill, which didn’t come as a great surprise ‘cause I’ve been in the ATC and we’d done it all before, you know, but the Morse code was alright because we were supposed to do twelve words a minute when we left there but in actual fact I could do twelve when I started, ‘cause I done there, but I found it more difficult with the, with the gunnery in actual fact taking 303s to pieces and what not there because used to have, undo the breechblock with a blindfold on and put it back together which sounds stupid but in actual fact the lighting was very poor on aircraft so in actual fact if something goes wrong it was quite difficult to see so, in actual fact it made quite a lot of sense. So we were there till about the end of the year 1943 and then went to the radio school at Yatesbury and we were supposed to get up from twelve to eighteen words a minute on there and we also did training in arms, we rifles, Sten guns, we did hand grenades as well, what not there to, general training, what not there and my best pal, Billy Wilson and I, when it came to the exams we both failed the same thing on [unclear] and so we had to drop back a week and join the next unit, which came as a big surprise for us because that unit had been marked down for overseas unit, they sent us home on leave again for a fortnight but we joined the unit there. During our period waiting for embarkation we spent a couple of nights at [unclear] hospital, portering the wounded coming back from France, the convoys and we worked all night during operations helping out which was quite an experience ‘cause it really brought it home to you what it was all about when you saw the condition of some of these people who were there, you know, quite difficult, but it was a good experience and we embarked on the ship and we, I’ve never been sailing before, I’ve been across the Isle of Wight, that was my total knowledge of sailing, we thought, oh, lovely, easy trip on there and we saw the sailors loading up shells and wondered what on earth they were for, the first officer came on board, was just walking past us and he said, ‘you gunners?’ And we said, ‘well, air gunners’, and he said, ‘oh good, you can be the [unclear] gunners for this ship.’ And we all looked at each other as if to say what’s he talking about? He said, ‘let me explain, we are classified as an armed merchant cruiser’, he said, ‘that destroyer over there will be looking after one side of the convoy and we should be looking after the other side.’ He said, ‘we’ve got two 4.6 guns on the end of this ship’, he said, ‘you will be firing them at some time’ and whatnot [laughs] ‘but in the meantime you’ll be submarine watching as well on four hour shifts’ [laughs]. So we started our voyage doing submarine watching shifts from midnight till four in the morning on the, dead man’s watch I think, we called it in actual fact [laughs]. So we did that there and we did actually fire the guns so [laughs] much to the amusement of the rest of the people on board the ship but so, yes so that was the voyage. Then we went to Aqir we were from Cairo, we were based there for about a week or so and then went through Aqir just started our training there and from there we went to the gunnery school at Ballah, then came back and did our OTU at Aqir and then finishing that we went down to a Heavy Conversion Unit down Abu Suweir onto Liberators after that, we were flying Wellingtons at Aqir but Liberators down to [unclear] and then after that we, came the end of the war in the Far East ‘cause we were due to go out there on our next trip but the atom bomb dropping, we then faced with nothing to do so, we got posted out to Aden then, to a communications unit there where we flew all over the Middle East, all over the Arabian continent what not, did quite a lot of flying there and did a year there and from there we went to 26 ACU army operation, cooperation unit and that was helping the army in Egypt, we were target towing to, for there so we did that for about nine months. And then we came home in 1947, and I got demobbed up in, on the coast, up north. And came back to my job in London after that.
CB: Ok, so when you returned to your job in London, what did you actually do?
RW: Oh, we were inspecting, we used to make rolls of cloth, and when we, they came back to London we used to inspect them all to make sure that the quality was good and what not, and then
CB: Then what?
RW: And then the firm split up, I went with one director and went with another and I eventually became the director of the firm on, you know, in London.
CB: So what were you supplying? You -
RW: We were supplying the wholesale trade, dress making trade, the fashion trade in other words.
CB: And so becoming a director, what were your responsibilities when you were the director?
RW: Well, re the stock and travelling as well, I used to go and see customers and we used to do the buying and what not you know for each year, ‘cause you are working six months in advance all the time, picking the next seasons, materials, fabrics and all the rest of it, you know, so.
CB: Sounds good.
RW: Quite a good job. Very interesting.
CB: When did that come to an end?
RW: About 1973 or 4 I think, something like that.
CB: Ok, so you were only fifty then, so what did you do next?
RW: Yes. We went into antiques then, you know. My wife had a hat shop and when she left that, we started doing antiques.
CB: Ok. And you did that till when?
RW: We were still doing antiques I mean we came here so till about, I suppose, twenty five years ago, something like that, you know.
CB: Then what?
RW: So we retired then [laughs]. We’d had enough [laughs].
CB: Ok. And did your wife keep busy after that?
RW: Yes, she, she enjoyed her hat shop and she was an extremely good French polisher, which very handy in antiques trade.
CB: For antiques.
RW: And she was very clever, extremely good needle woman, ‘cause her grandmother had been a court dressmaker, you know, so.
CB: Ok. Thank you very much, so now going back to the early days. How did you come to join the RAF rather than the army or the navy?
RW: Well, I’d been in the ACC [sic], my idea was to join, ‘cause my brother was in the RAF as well, he was in Coastal Command.
CB: What did he do?
RW: He was navigator.
CB: Ok. And is he still about, is he?
RW: No, he died unfortunately when he was about fifty odd. He had a heart condition and those days unfortunately there was nothing they could do for them, you know. Today could probably just put a stent on again.
[Other]: It was a different matter.
CB: Quite different.
RW: Unfortunately then he died but he was also very lucky because he was in a crash as well, in a Mosquito went up with a strange pilot because the aircraft had been in for an electrical fault and then this pilot said, would you come up with me because you weren’t allowed to go out without a wireless operator so they went up and after about twenty minutes or so went totally out of control and wouldn’t recognize any of the signals and what not and they just crashed on the runway and while I saw the pictures of it, all you could see was the radio, that was all that was left there and luckily, say luckily, he broke his thigh quite badly. And so reduced him to grade three and so he had to give up flying, you know, after that but the pilot was lucky, he just got nick out of his ear, that was all [unclear].
CB: Right. What happened, what was, did they find out what was wrong with it?
RW: No, as I say, it had been, I think, for an electrical fault so whether it was still there or what not, you know, is hard to know.
CB: We are going back to your situation.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you’ve been in the Air Training Corps at school.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And you left school at fifteen.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you stayed with the Air Training Corps throughout that period.
RW: That’s right.
CB: When you were doing what? You were at -
RW: Well, I joined the textiles when I was about sixteen, you know, so I’ve been with them about a couple of years.
CB: That was a company.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So, you volunteered, you were being called up at eighteen.
RW: Yeah, I was in the RAF for, you know, [unclear]
CB: Yeah, ok, so how did that go? So, they called you up or you just said, I am joining, I want to join up?
RW: No, they called me up when I was eight, after eighteen, you know, because as conscription after you were eighteen.
CB: Yeah. Ok, so what happened then? ‘Cause you talked earlier about grading, so at what point did you undertake the grading system for aircrew, because they could have put you on the ground you see?
RW: Oh, when I went to Cardington.
CB: Right.
RW: That was it, I just got the notice to stay and we were there two days, most of the first day was medicals and what not and then the second day was all the various testing and then we had a board interview with the wing commander I think who went through all our details and said, yes or no, you were suitable.
CB: And what sort of testing did they do to decide whether first of all you’d be aircrew rather than ground crew and secondly which type of aircrew?
RW: They’d give you some educational test and for wireless operators they’d just give the difference between different sounds, you know, to pick it out as to say whether you could tell the difference [unclear]
CB: Yeah, sure.
RW: But that was the basics of it.
CB: Right, because they had the PNB system, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer
RW: That’s right, yes, and I think they had different things for each of them, you know
CB: Yeah. And had you volunteered to be a wireless operator air gunner?
RW: Yeah, because they said, why do you want to be a wireless operator? I said, well, I’ve been in the ATC, I enjoyed [unclear] I want to be a wireless operator, you know [laughs].
CB: Ok, good. So then you went on to do gunnery.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And how did that go? So,
RW: It was quite good, the training was quite good but it was fairly short course ‘cause they knew we were going onto Liberators and because different guns, instead of the 303s you’re on the point five, so there wasn’t a lot of training for that because they knew you’d be going over to the other ones afterwards.
CB: But how did they train people to be an air gunner? What was the first thing they did, because you hadn’t been in the air before so what was the process that you went through?
RW: Well, just mainly the basics of the 303 machine gun, you know, to learn all the bits and pieces of it, that took the most of the time.
CB: And when you start, when did you start shooting with an aerial?
RW: Well, we only did a little bit of shooting there.
CB: Was that, clay pigeon or initially, or how did they do it?
RW: Yeah, we did clay pigeon shooting and what not at Yatesbury as well as Ross rifles, what not, we did all that sort of thing.
CB: What rifles?
RW: Ross rifles, Canadian rifles they were.
CB: Oh, right, that was shooting at targets.
RW: Yeah, that’s right.
CB: Ok. So they didn’t put you in any turret at that stage.
RW: No, not at that stage, no.
CB: Ok. Good. So the point you were making earlier about the Liberator is that it is an American aircraft so it’s got different guns and they are .5 machine guns
RW: That’s right.
CB: And a completely different setup.
RW: Yeah.
CB: But when you got to the end of the course they recoursed you because you and Billy Wilson didn’t get through, what caused you to fail?
RW: It was a radio test, what you did, you tuned up the transmitter to get the maximum aerial, and you had, you were supposed to retest it, to make sure that you were on the right one and not on the reverse signal there and it was one of the few tests that if you failed that was it, you had to, the other things you could fail but it didn’t matter quite so much.
CB: Ok.
RW: But this particular one we both failed on the same thing so all we did was just retrain for a week and retake it all again, you know.
CB: Ok. The reason why we’re asking the questions is of course people have absolutely no concept of what is involved in the individual trade specialities.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So when you came to do radio training how did that work? They started you said earlier with the Morse code.
RW: Yeah.
CB: But then you got on to using radio, so could you describe please what was the process of training to be a wireless operator?
RW: Well, you had to learn all the innards of the various sets, all the various valves and what they did and they went through all the theories of what radios waves were and how they worked, all of the rest of it, you know, it was, quite involved learning all of that you know, something new completely to me at the time and of course in those days with the big old valves and what not not like the modern things now, and it was quite a complicated business fault finding ‘cause they used to do testing, putting faults in the system and find out where they were, all that sort of thing, and it was quite complicated you know to do it all but -
CB: So there was a lot of theory?
RW: Yeah, a lot of theory.
CB: And then there was practical, so how did that work?
RW: Practical. Very good in actual fact I enjoyed you know Morse code for my sins the instructor used to let me take the class when he was getting tired, usually [unclear], used to start a bit of a riot with all the class, they said, don’t you go too fast now! [laughs] Oh no, so, I used to take the class occasionally [unclear] but I enjoyed Morse code.
CB: So, Morse code you needed to know because of the signals coming in.
RW: Yes, that’s right.
CB: And going out but what was actually the job of the air signaller, the radio operator?
RW: Well, on half hour used to get the messages from coming in, I mean it might say return to base or weather bad or whatever, the rest of the time you could use the radio compass to find out the way back to base and stuff like that you know and you could find your position by contacting two different stations and asking them to verify what your position was [unclear]
CB: So in practical terms you were helping the navigator, were you, in position and indication?
RW: Yes, in an actual fact, you could pass it over to him, say what it was [unclear]
CB: And did the navigator ask you to do that?
RW: Not that, not that I remember.
CB: Later on.
RW: But I used to pass it on to him anyway, you know, see whether there was any commonality [laughs]
CB: So you were teacher’s pet in this business of the training for being a wireless operator?
RW: I don’t know about that! [laughs]
CB: But -
RW: No, he was, mainly, he was on an American, he worked for Wells Fargo, he was absolutely fabulous operator, quite incredible.
CB: And he had operational experience, had he?
RW: Yeah, I think he could do about forty words a minute actually on there which was absolutely incredible and he could send messages and receive them at the same time, you know.
CB: But had he got aircrew experience?
RW: No.
CB: Oh, he hadn’t. Oh, ok. So what about the other people who were on the course, so they were barracking you not to go too fast, so what were the people and what were they like? What sort of people?
RW: Oh, they were great bunch of fellows, as in actual fact you know, wonderful sense of humour, all pulling the leg if they had to [laughs] but oh yeah, great bunch of blokes in actual fact.
CB: And presumably they had some kind of aptitude, did they, to do this work because.
RW: Oh yes, they did, in actual fact, you know, we all [unclear] in different ways, they all come from different backgrounds, all sorts of things.
CB: Had any of them got radio experience before?
RW: I don’t think so, oh yeah, one chap had, I think he worked for Marconi or something like that but most of the others never had, you know so [unclear]
CB: So you and Billy Wilson were recoursed.
RW: Yeah.
CB: What happened to the other members of the course? I mean, where did they go?
RW: Oh, I think they must have gone straight on over here to OTU gunnery school and probably onto a squadron you know [unclear] left behind, you know.
CB: So you kept in touch did you, with some of the people so -
RW: No, I didn’t, actually, in actual fact, you know [unclear], so I don’t know quite where they all finished up, but I have no doubt they finished up in a squadron somewhere round about.
CB: It’s interesting that you then being recoursed, you went to a different unit.
RW: Yeah.
CB: That meant you had to go in the convoy system.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Out to the Middle East.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Did you go around the Cape, did you?
RW: No, went straight, went straight through Gibraltar, a long way to Port Said [unclear]
CB: Right. Ok. So when you then got to Egypt, what was the routine then because you’d done your basic training including gunnery but you hadn’t done .5 machine guns, so what did you do as soon as you got to Port Said?
RW: I think we went to Cairo, as I say, for about a week or ten days, something like that and then straight to Aqir, to the base I think there, and then from there to Ballah, you know, to the gunnery school after that, they did that first to get that out of the way before the OTU, you know.
CB: So how was the training, how did they do the training in those two places, at Aqir and Ballah?
RW: It was mostly paper work, you know for the biggest part of the time, you know, in actual fact, fill in all the different bits and pieces that were there.
CB: And the gunnery, how did they do that?
RW: I’m not sure we did a lot of that because I think what they were thinking, we were going on to Liberators anyway so wasn’t gonna make a lot of difference to do that, you know, so in actual fact I think we curtailed it.
CB: So at what stage did you crew up and where?
RW: Well, what they did when we went to Aqir, they marched us all up into a big hangar, said, ‘right, we are going now, we are locking the doors, we’ll come back in twenty minutes, sort yourself out a crew’ and that was it [laughs], that’s exactly what you did, you all talked to each other and finished up going on to a crew.
CB: So this is crewing up for Wellingtons?
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you don’t have an air engineer, you don’t have a flight engineer.
RW: No.
CB: So, how did you -
RW: We had a second pilot.
CB: Oh did you? Who took the initiative in making the crew up?
RW: Well, you just sort of walked into people and said, ‘well, can I be with you’ [laughs] and they said, ‘oh yes, why not?’ You know, my name is Roy, you know [unclear]
CB: ‘Cause you all got brevet so you knew what your specialities were.
RW: Of course, some of them I knew but others most of them I didn’t know at all you know so because our crew was, there were four South Africans in it, you know, it’s unusual, you know [unclear]
CB: So tell us about who were the people there then, in the, individual, the pilot, who was the captain, the pilot, who was he?
RW: The pilot was a Lieutenant Van Sale.
CB: South African.
RW: And there was Lieutenant Erasmus was the co-pilot and there was a front gunner and a rear gunner, they were both South Africans.
CB: Right. The navigator?
RW: Two Scots, and then one Englishman, [laughs] that made up -
CB: So, did you class yourself as a Scotsman or an Englishman in that?
RW: Well, as a Scotsman, you know.
CBN: Right, ok. So, how did the others go then? Who was the navigator?
RW: Navigator was the Englishman. Yeah, he was an officer as well [unclear]
CB: And what was his experience?
RW: I don’t know really, in actual fact where he’d come from, in fact. I think like everybody else he just arrived at Aqir you know, [laughs] sorry I don’t know where from in actual fact but -
CB: The reason -
RW: We were all a great bunch anyway.
CB: Yes. And so you crewed up and you did your, you did then gunnery training when you were in the Wellington, did you?
RW: No, I did radio, just radio, that’s all.
CB: Ok, right. So you didn’t do gunnery normally, it was just a secondary -
RW: No, no, I was just filling in.
CB: Right. Ok. And then how long were you there at the OTU?
RW: A sheet somewhere.
CB: Because it took a little while to do all the training on the Wellington presumably.
RW: Yes, it did, in actual fact.
CB: Just looking at the form.
RW: We finished in June ’45 at Aqir OTU and then we went to Abu Suweyr and finished up in September ’45 there, just one day after they dropped the atom bomb, you know, so.
CB: Yeah, but by then you went to Abu Suweyr because of the Liberator?
RW: Yeah.
CB: So, that took more crew, so how did that work?
RW: Yeah, we made up, because, I don’t think I said but [unclear] the aircraft, as far as we know, a bomb exploded on board, I think it got caught up in the release mechanism and they were all killed.
CB: On the ground or in the air?
RW: In the air, you know and about three days later our pilot was told to switch over tanks, he switched over to an empty one, cut both the engines and -
CB: This is in the Wellington?
RW: In the Wellington, that’s right.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And so we finished up in a field on that, how he managed to control it I don’t know but -
CB: This was without an instructor?
RW: We had an instructor with us, thank God.
CB: Oh you did?
RW: So, yeah, so we finished up in the field and the laugh was I didn’t know anything about it because I’ve been on my radio ‘cause I cut myself off from the rest and the first thing I knew was my going straight into the radio thing front there and I was livid because I thought, what kind of a landing is that? [laughs] but it was a fantastic piece of work, in actual fact, how he did it, and I mean, we were just lucky to be over some fields, if we’d been over a built up area we, you know, there’d be no way out, but just lucky that was a field there.
CB: What did they do with the pilot?
RW: I think, he left us after that, yes, that’s right, got a new pilot as a matter of fact, so.
CB: As a captain.
RW: Yeah, captain.
CB: Another South African.
RW: Another South African, yeah, that’s right, slightly older so, so we got a different instructor, we had a squadron leader, the chief instructor then so.
CB: Interesting, so how did the crew gel together?
RW: Oh, very well really, considering they come from all different backgrounds, you know.
CB: Did they South Africans, because of their names, it sound as if they were Afrikaans? Did they?
RW: Yeah, they spoke to each other in Afrikaans because it was better for them, I mean they speak English very well but they tended to speak to each other in Afrikaans some of the time.
CB: But you didn’t mind.
RW: No.
CB: But you knew a bit of it after a bit.
RW: Not really [laughs], I had enough trouble trying to learn Arabic! [laughs]
CB: Did they give you courses in Arabic?
RW: No, just picked it up, you know, from bits and pieces during the day.
CB: Right, right. So you finish on the OTU,
RW: Yeah.
CB: You go to the HCU,
RW: Yeah.
CB: To go to change to heavies and you’re going onto Liberators.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So what was the process there?
RW: Going on to Liberators, just getting used to, ‘cause they were quite complicated the American sets, they were very good, the Bendicks was a marvellous transmitter, they used to ask us not to transmit over the station because it used to drown all [laughs] communications in actual fact but it was very good, in actual fact.
CB: So now, you were just allocated other aircrew because for instance there was no engineer on the -
RW: Yes, I think one of them was off, Billy my friend’s crew that got killed ‘cause unfortunately they had to drop one out when the instructor was with them so there was one crew member left, one poor gunner left on his own so we took him on as one of our spare ones, on there.
CB: How many crew were there on a Liberator?
RW: Eight on there.
CB: Ok. Where did the engineer come from? Was he a South African as well?
RW: Well, he was second pilot, you know, Lieutenant Erasmus [unclear]
CB: Ah right. Ok. Good. Now some of the difficult things in the circumstances were obvious in Britain but in some cases they were also abroad. One of them is LMF, lacking moral fibre.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So, did you come across that at all?
RW: No, there was a slight bit of it because when we had our crash, the rear gunner got stuck in his and couldn’t get the turret to move, you know, I think he was scared [laughs] it was gonna go up, you know, without him, so there was some talk at the time that he was going to give it up but in actual fact he didn’t, he went back again but I think there were odd cases of people who did give up.
CB: And what did they do with them?
RW: I don’t know what they did, I presume they put them down in the ground staff job, but I don’t really know.
CB: ‘Cause in Britain they had a very firm way of dealing with them.
RW: Yeah, they didn’t like it you know ‘cause obviously it wasn’t good for morale.
CB: No.
RW: No.
CB: The other is the STDs, the sexually transmitted diseases. So how did that get dealt with?
RW: I remember that they had somewhat horrific films they showed you at St John’s Wood when we first went there [laughs] but I think that was their method of dealing with it mainly you know, in actual fact, but it was really all the confrontation we had with it, you know.
CB: Ok. Good, I’m gonna stop there for a mo. We are restarting now just to talk about some extra items.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So what about accommodation?
RW: Accommodation was quite good, you had your own space and locker where you keep all your own private bits and pieces, you know, photographs and letters from home all the rest of it you know and the food generally was very good, you know, we enjoyed it and what not, nothing really to complain about, it was really, really quite good.
CB: Did you get better food because you were aircrew?
RW: Yes, I think so.
CB: Even in training?
RW: Yeah, I think so, yes, on there. ‘Cause at a sergeant’s mess you know and what not there, so used on your own, quite decent but we reckoned it was better than the officer’s mess [laughs] so we didn’t know.
CB: So you had lockable lockers but were you in Nissen huts or what sort of accommodation did you have?
RW: Yes, sort of Nissen huts, you know, there, and yes in Aqir.
CB: So, were they insulated?
RW: Not really, because it was very hot, you know, all the rest of it, the climate was quite hot out there so, don’t really [unclear] much from there,
CB: No.
RW: But they were quite comfortable, I must say.
CB: Right. And in the UK, what about the accommodation there?
RW: No, fairly basic there, I remember polishing the floor [laughs] so corporal used to come and dump a great load of polish on the floor and say, ‘polish that’ and it took about an hour to get it [laughs]
CB: With a bumper and a liner.
RW: That’s right, a bumper up and down and one sitting on it and going up and down but yes [unclear]
CB: Now you started as an AC2.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How did the promotion system work?
RW: Well, when you finished your course at Yatesbury, you got your promotion to sergeant, used to be quite funny actually because what we used to do is borrow somebody else’s uniform for the parade that day and get the WAAFs to sew all our stuff on there so the minute we came out for our parade we could put our new jackets on with all the rest of us so we were all in borrowed, borrowed gear [laughs] when we went on parade then.
CB: And your brevet was what?
RW: Pardon?
CB: What was the brevet?
RW: The brevet, that originally it was air gunner and then it went to signaller later on they changed after about a year to signaller.
CB: And so you are now a sergeant, how long were you a sergeant?
RW: Till, till I was down in Aden when we took a board from there, got flight sergeant.
CB: And how did the pay change?
RW: It was more, I can’t remember what it was [laughs] wasn’t a fortune but it was better than it was before, you know.
CB: You knew where you were going to go when you left the RAF. Were you waiting to get out waiting for demob or did you just say, I want to be demobbed now? [emphasis]
RW: No, we just got sent home, that was all afterwards, no sort of forecast or anything, we just, we were 26 AACU, they just said, right, you are posted home you know and that was it, little or no warning [unclear]
CB: And where did they send you?
RW: To Lytham St Annes.
CB: And what was the process there?
RW: Just got all your civvies which we hadn’t seen for donkey’s years [laughs], you know and all the bits and pieces, got your vouchers and your travel warrants and all those [unclear] and I was due about six or seven weeks leave I think something like that, you know, so I didn’t take it up [unclear] but yes that was the end of that you know.
CB: So, the war’s ended, you’ve been demobbed two years later.
RW: Yeah.
CB: You then go into civilian life, having been in the ATC and joined as a volunteer reserve person, what was your commitment for future years?
RW: Well, I quite liked the job that I went to, you know, so I decided I’ve been toying with the idea I might stop in the RAF but I decided, no, I’d sooner go back to the textiles so, in a way I’m glad you know that I did, because I enjoyed textiles so it’s very good you know.
CB: But you were required, as a VR man, you were required to remain in the VR,
RW: Yes.
CB: That’s what I meant. Till what age?
RW: I got my release, release thing, I think all the dates and what not are back there, how many years I’m on reserve ‘cause they said [unclear], you might be eligible for call up in an emergency and what not.
CB: And did you join any air force associations afterwards?
RW: I was in the RAFA for a while not long after, played cricket for them, while, I enjoyed that in actual fact [laughs]
CB: Did you do much cricket when you were in the RAF?
RW: When we were down at Aden I played cricket down there you know, we’d to play the officer’s mess, we used to like beating them [laughs]
CB: Good, Ok, thank you very much, I’m going to stop there for a mo. Right, you mentioned earlier about the aircraft that was downed because of a hang-up.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And the bomb, were you in formation with that or was it a separate and what happened?
RW: No, we weren’t flying that day, we were between lectures and I just came back at lunchtime and as I say next door were just empty bedsprings, nothing on the locker nothing I said you know, where’s Billy’s stuff, and he said, haven’t you heard? No, and he said, oh, you know he’s gone and got killed, you know, I was shattered you know.
CB: This is your friend Billy Wilson.
RW: Yeah, that’s right, so as I say, we never got an official report, you never did with these things, but that was what we heard, and it sort of ties up with the fact that nobody got out, it was an experienced pilot on board, an instructor, you know, there were no survivors, nobody parachuted out or what not there so must have been something disastrous that happened you know, so that was it.
CB: So how did you all feel as a crew after that?
RW: Oh, a bit shattered, especially when we had our own one a couple of days after [laughs], wasn’t a very good week in actual fact.
CB: So when you had your own engine failure because of fuel starvation, that was, what height was that?
RW: I’m not really sure but all I can think was that the pilot had to keep the nose down because they daren’t let the nose go up, go out of control so if we were flying, say six thousand feet, take what, two, three minutes with the nose down, something like that so he had to find somewhere in about two or three minutes.
CB: And he wasn’t able to switch, he wasn’t able to switch the fuel correctly and restart.
RW: No, there wasn’t time because I mean he had more than his job, ‘cause it was a heavy aircraft the Wellington but to keep control of it with no engines it must have been a heck of a job, you know, to do that, just to try and keep it level and what not there and at the same time try and find somewhere you could put it down, you know, so.
CB: What did he say to the crew on the intercom?
RW: I don’t really know ‘cause I wasn’t on it, you see, I didn’t know anything about it, you know.
CB: You were listening out, were you, on the radio?
RW: I was listening out, ‘cause it was more than your life’s worth, to miss the messages on the half hour, then, you know, if you came back and your logbook had got no messages, so, what goes on, you know,
CB: So that’s an important point as you’re, now you’re flying, your role is to listen out to signals.
RW: Yeah.
CB: What did you actually have to do? You were listening to signals but how did that work?
RW: Well, as I say, it might be just trial messages that you think on there but as I say occasionally would be something like return to base, weather bad or something else like that which you of course you would then pass on them back to them on there so that was why they absolutely insisted that you got the half hour messages, you know, didn’t miss them.
CB: Because they would send particular messages on the half hour.
RW: Yes, they did on Bomber Command I think, if they had anything there had a registered time to send the messages and you had to make sure you got them.
CB: So we are talking about this crash, how, who else was hurt in the crash?
RW: The front gunner broke his ankle but that was the worst of the injuries, which is absolutely incredible really.
CB: And was the bomb aimer also a gunner?
RW: No. No.
CB: He simply was the air bomber.
RW: Yeah, yeah.
CB: Ok. So, thinking of your flying experiences in total, what would you say were the best times and what were the worst?
RW: I think, flying in the communications unit down at Aden was the best time in actual fact ‘cause it was so varied, you know, all sorts of things, we actually took an air vice marshal round on a tour of the thing, the CO called us up one day and he got a letter in front of him and said, ‘I’ve just had a note from the Air Ministry to say that they are sending Air Vice Marshal Sir Charles’ - I can’t remember what his surname was – ‘on a tour of inspection and we’ve been given the job of taking him round, so I don’t want anything to go wrong understood?’ [laughs] So he says [unclear] so we’ve, I’ve never seen so much top brass in my life ‘cause they all appeared, the Governor’s car turned up, his Rolls Royce and they were all involved.
CB: This is in the Liberator?
RW: No, so, no, it was a Wellington converted on [unclear] so, yes so, and a very nice lady officer with him as well there, which cheered everybody up but yes so we took him round, we actually had dinner together the evening which surprised me [unclear]
CB: He was a flying man, I take it?
RW: Yes, I think he was one of the top handful of people in the end, the chief of technical training command I think he was something like that you know, so.
CB: What was the worst experience you had?
RW: Let me think now, I should think probably the day Billy’s crash I think it was probably about the worst day of it all really, rest of it, you know, was bad, that was the sort of low point from the time but get over it, you know.
CB: Had you known his parents, before you went out?
RW: No, unfortunately not, no, and the worst thing was I wanted to go on his funeral parade but we were all on sick leave you know, they wouldn’t let us go on parade you know so I didn’t get the chance to, well you know, say goodbye.
CB: You were on sick leave. What sort of sickness did you get?
RW: Ah, well, I had a sore head [laughs] for about a week afterwards but you know apart from that it wasn’t bad you know.
CB: Yeah. From the crash. Yeah.
RW: Yeah, but they obviously decided, you know, to give us some days off.
CB: Yeah. Right. We’ve had a good interview now so we are looking at pictures and various things and we’ll wrap things up.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMcPhersonWhiteR150901
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Roy White
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:53:22 audio recording
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-01
Description
An account of the resource
Roy White was born in Perth, Scotland but grew up in London. He joined the Air Training Corps, went on as a volunteer reserve and then served as an air gunner in the RAF. Tells of his brother serving in Coastal Command and surviving an aircraft crash. Gives some insight in aircrew roles such as radio operator and air gunner. Mentions various episodes of his service life: training in England and Egypt; an aircraft crash in which a friend got killed; flying with a South African crew; being assigned to submarine watching and manning the guns on his journey to Egypt; towards the end of the war, being posted to the communications unit at Aden. He served as a wireless operator in Egypt post war.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Great Britain
Middle East
Egypt--Ismailia (Province)
Egypt--Alexandria
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
aircrew
B-24
crash
crewing up
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Aqir
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/352/3523/AWoodhouseRM151001.1.mp3
9305bce62fb9f1fae39850e860037e67
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Woodhouse, Robert
Robert Michael Woodhouse
Robert M Woodhouse
R M Woodhouse
R Woodhouse
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Robert Woodhouse (1836194 Royal Air Force). He flew operations a wireless operator / air gunner with 207 and 617 Squadrons.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Woodhouse, RM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: Ok. Today is the 1st of October 2015 and I am Heather Hughes and I am sitting here talking to a Bomber Command veteran Robert Woodward, who has come all the way —
RW: Woodhouse.
HH: Woodhouse, sorry. Who’s come all the way from South Africa to attend the unveiling of the Spire tomorrow and who has kindly agreed to do an interview with us today. Thank you so much Robert.
RW: Ok.
HH: For agreeing to, to do this with us.
RW: Pleasure.
HH: I wonder if we could start by asking you just to talk about your early life in Wales?
RW: I will do, yes. Gladly. Well, I was born on the 16th of March 1925 and I lived in a place in South West Wales called Pembroke Dock which was a garrison town. Famous for the navy, the air force in particular — Flying Boats, and the dockyard. We naturally became, when the Second World War started a sitting target for the German bombers. And we were raided many times. At one time we were sixth of thirty continuous nights when the oil tanks that fed the naval submarines were bombed and they burned for, as far as I can remember, twenty one days and nights. We were bombed out and my father who was a hairdresser, decided to move to Cardiff which we did in the end of 1941. I went to school in Pembroke Dock. And my cousin Ronnie who had lost his father in normal circumstances and his mother used to stay with us when he was on leave. He was a boy entrant in the RAF and because of all this I became very, very interested in the air force and wanted to become a boy entrant myself. This didn’t happen. The war started in 1939. When we moved to Cardiff I joined the local boys ATC. Number 1344 Squadron. And in October 1942 I volunteered for aircrew. I think at seventeen years of age. Yes. Seventeen years of age in October. And some months later, having been accepted and I joined the RAF and went to, for kitting out into Lord’s Cricket Ground in London. I remember the day very well, right. Having said that we were issued with our flying clothing before we even saw an aircraft. Because everyone that volunteered seemed to want to become a pilot they were, if I can put it this way, overbooked. Right. And anyway pilots, navigators and bomb aimers were trained out of the country. Usually Canada or South Africa or wherever. Right. And because I was keen I was persuaded by the interviewer who was ex-First World War to accept an appointment as a wireless operator. He said you only, you would be in the air force quickly and that was about it. Anyway, this I did, right, and eventually my radio school was at Madley in Hereford. If I remember correctly Number 4 Radio School. Lasted plus or minus six months and we began flying after about, I think it was six weeks. Something like that. Maybe twelve weeks. The course had been reduced to six months because previously wireless operators had to do a ground stint at local radio RAF stations. This didn’t happen for me. I was accepted straight away because it was now reduced to six months. My Morse was exceptional. I say it myself. My Morse code.
HH: Fantastic.
RW: I had an aptitude for, for this. Anyway, we went and then when we were finished the course we received our sergeant’s stripes. And the majority, there was about a hundred on the course, the majority were dealt with and posted elsewhere on an alphabetical basis. Being Woodhouse, I was at the tail end of the last eight that were sent on a three month gunnery course which was exceptional but helped, I think, to preserve my stay before getting to a squadron by about plus or minus three months. That’s what I worked out since. Having said all that the next posting was to, I went, the gunnery course was in Scotland at a place called Evanton. E V A N T O N. Number 8 Gunnery School. And we were then sent to Halfpenny Green which was near Wolverhampton and we went on an advanced course for radio operators and navigators only. I came across, if you’re interested, I came across a colleague that I had known and got friendly with in, in London at Lord’s Cricket Ground and he was flying in the same aircraft. An Anson. And he said, ‘Look I’ve been here a bit longer and they’re just going to ground me because I was suffering from air sickness. But can I can I fly with you guys? You know, for the three hours flight to see if I’ve got over it.’ We all agreed but unfortunately he was ill and that was the end of that. Right. We then moved on to Operational Training Unit. Number 14 OTU at Market Harborough. Another famous OTU. It’s where Guy Gibson did his OTU and so we had all of this to think about, I suppose. And if I remember correctly the course lasted something like three months. We flew in Wellingtons and this is where we were crewed up. We met what was to be our future crew. Right. And I remember being in a big room, something like where I’m sitting now and all aircrew milling around. And we were speaking to one another and chose. And a fellow came up to me and said he was a rear gunner and he said, ‘Would you like to join us?’ He said, ‘I’ve already crewed up,’ with so and so, so and so. And I said, ‘Well, what’s your name?’ He said, ‘Moore.’ M O O R E. Well, I said, ‘Oh well, fair enough. My sister just got married to a naval guy whose name was Moore so I’ll make up the number.’ And that’s the way we chose. The rear gunner was Moore. The bomb aimer was Andre Moore. The pilot was Tom Moore. And Bob Woodhouse was Robert Moore. And that’s how we got together. At the end of the course we were interviewed by the wing commander or squadron leader flying and he said, ‘Look. You guys have all done so well, right. Two of you are being recommended for commissions but we can’t give it to you at this station. You get it at your next station.’ Right. And he said Robert Woodhouse and Andre Moore. Right. He then went on to say, ‘Look it’s up to you but you know all aircrew have to volunteer again,’ and he said, ‘We want to recommend your crew for Pathfinders. To go direct to Warboys in Cambridgeshire,’ which was training Pathfinders. We, at that time, I qualify this, we all agreed that this was so but he said, ‘You are all, you’re going straight to a squadron for training at Warboys.’ He said, ‘Yes.’ Anyway, for whatever reason our navigator was sick the next day and we had to find another navigator. So, we don’t know. I can’t add to that but this actually happened and cancelled our stay. Our going to Warboys. Which may well have been a good thing. We were sent temporarily to Balderton which is in Lincolnshire. And it, it was several squadrons there, two squadrons there and — until we got a new navigator. And I cannot recall exactly when this happened. May have been a couple of weeks. It may have been a month. I can’t recall. But they were flying operations from Balderton. We didn’t fly in them. But I remember seeing, the first time I came into contact with something that was a little frightening was there was a Lancaster which was there which we were quite nearby, right and they were hosing out the rear turret from the operation the previous night. That’s what I remember. Anyway, from there we went to Wigsley with a, which was a Conversion Unit from Wellingtons onto Lancasters but because we were short of a navigator, we still didn’t have a navigator I invariably ended up flying with different trainee crews or whatever. Right. And one, you may have heard what these were like or not was the chief flying instructor, a squadron leader, Australian — they named an airport after him in Australia, who I flew with once and there was a different crew altogether and well, he was, he used to show you how good the Lancaster was. And I remember he flew over the control tower at Wigsley, right and cut all four engines which was pretty frightening. And the aircraft still stayed up in the sky. These are the basic facts that I remember. I may well enlarge on them a little bit. Right. Ok. But having said that we then went to a squadron — 207 Squadron in 5 Group. Wigsley was in 5 Group and they did have operations. To go back and retrack a little bit. While we were at Wigsley the German fighters used to infiltrate the main bomber streams and end up at the aerodromes, right. Which they did at Wigsley and they bombed the central runway which was put out of action. The bomb aimer and I were very friendly, right and [laughs] over my future crew and he, we used to have an end room. We picked the end room in the Nissen hut where we stayed and the next morning he said, ‘God ,you sleep hard you know?’ He said, ‘Didn’t you hear them last night?’ I said, ‘No. Not at all.’ That was it, right. Anyway, we then went on then to Spilsby on 207 Squadron. The CO was Wing Commander Black. And the chief intelligence officer was Joyce Brotherton. Brotherton [pause] who was much older than any of us and there we are. I had my twentieth birthday on 207 Squadron and we did a few operations. Nothing of real interest, right. Because we had a new navigator and I can’t recall where he came from whether they had had an accident or whatever but he was a Scot and I can’t remember his name. But having said that we had crewed up with an engineer whose name was Robertson and he was trained as a pilot but because it was at the end of the war, coming to the end of the war they weren’t training just engineers but they had a surplus of pilots and they had to volunteer. So they volunteered to fly on the squadron as engineers which he did. Right. And the other thing is he had a car which helped the crew a lot, right. There we are. But the last operation was in April. April to —[pause] April. April 20th, 23rd something like that, right. To Flensburg. And it was going to be a daylight raid and each time we got to the aircraft it was stopped because the weather was bad. Anyway, we eventually took off and we flew out over Skegness and we flew wave high. Wave high. All to get under the radar. There must have been a hundred and fifty, a hundred and sixty aircraft. Something like that. We, we were due to meet with American fighters too, before we got to the Danish coast and it didn’t happen. But suddenly one of the aircraft on our beam started flashing an Aldis lamp from his whatsthename. Right. So I had to read the Morse code and it was to tell us that our rear door was still open. Right. So that was a funny part. Right. And the rear gunner whatever, had forgotten to lock the door. We didn’t know and we couldn’t use normal voice or anything. So, anyway but when we got to the target and got to bombing height there we had a master bomber in control. I forget his name and he was directing us. Actually we could see we were going to bomb the docks but by that time our, our fighter escort had arrived out from Scotland and there was an air force, an airfield at the top which the, we were firing their guns at that. And then suddenly the cloud did come over but we could still, but see the target. But the, as I said at that time, towards the end of the war, right, see the bombing line had to be strictly accurate. And in no way did this appeared to be the case so it was aborted. And where the [pause] we could see clearly, right, the sea, and there were loads of U-boats coming back because it was a U-boat base as well, right. And they had been recalled and they were going so we dropped our bombs on them. Right. And we didn’t lose one aircraft on that trip.
HH: Gosh.
RW: One aircraft. So I’m told.
HH: That’s quite unusual.
RW: So I’m told. Whether you believe everything I don’t know but one has to remember that at the end of the war you had this thirty year limit as it applied. And anyway we got back and we went on leave straight away. And oh yeah, we came back, right and we screamed over, over Skegness. Right. It must have frightened them because we were so low I tell you and you get a hundred odd aircraft. Anyway, that happened, right. And then after leave we came back and we immediately, oh yes, they, in our absence they had done the raid on, which was the final raid of the war, on Berchtesgaden. Which was sometime at the end of April probably. Early May. Whatever. And that was it and the squadron was laid up and that was it. And then we started doing trips to Operation Dodge to Italy.
HH: To collect prisoners of war.
RW: Well, yeah, we brought back soldiers actually.
HH: Oh soldiers.
RW: We brought. And soldiers. And another one was Pomigliano. Somewhere near the Leaning Tower actually. And brought them back. Right. And yeah, yes and we went to Norfolk and dropped them off there somewhere. So much details I can’t quite remember. Right. And then, oh yes when I got, when we got back, I’m trying to think now and get it right. Ok. Oh it’s a job. You only remember what you want to remember, you know. Anyway that was it. So, right, fair enough I came back off leave. That was it. I was still on 207 Squadron and lo and behold, right I had a message to report to station headquarters who said, ‘Right. Pack your bags but, you have to volunteer but you are going to 617 Squadron.’ So I, and that’s what happened. Right. I didn’t have time to say cheerio to the crew who had gone off on various things. Been on leave. And so I went to 617 Squadron which was, had been or was at Woodhall Spa but was then immediately moved to Washington to err Waddington as the 463 and 467 Australian squadrons had previously been at Waddington. Anyway, we were there in the mess and everything was — by that time I was a flight sergeant, and I became a warrant officer on 617 Squadron. And I remained with 617, the war had just ended, right and for about eleven months. In that time we were the lead squadron for Operation Tiger Force which was going to the Far East to support. Supposedly finish off the war there. Being the lead squadron. I’m told that the ground staff had already sailed in ships. But 617 and 9 Squadrons which we always partnered, right were going to be the sole. We went on to heavy duty low level flying. As you will know 617 Squadron was famous for their part in the dams raid. Various battleships. Ok. The Tirpitz being the top one.
HH: The Tirpitz. Yeah.
RW: But I wasn’t on the squadron at that time. But it was an honour to be chosen to go to the squadron. That’s the way I felt and I enjoyed every minute of it. We had a great time. Anyway, we were, we all got kitted out with overseas clothing and inoculations and what have you. And I remember a funny part was we were lined up irrespective of rank. Whether you were a wing commander, squadron leader or what. But I’m not a very physically big person but, but there was a squadron leader in front of me with his sleeves rolled up where he was getting the jabs and instead of giving you one jab now and again, right they had a system where they’d wind everything in and give you the eight in one go. That is how I remember. Right. The squadron leader just boom [laughs] That was it. He collapsed completely. Not for long but he, there we are. So there we are. That’s the funny side of it.
HH: And you survived fine.
RW: Pardon?
HH: And you survived fine, did you?
RW: Yes. I, yes, I just looked away, you know. But there we are. So, so we did those trips and — sorry yes. We then flew to the Far East. Ok. And we started off, we flew to Tripoli. There was another name for it then. An Italian name. Anyway we had a night there and then went via Cairo West and Idris, sorry Idris was the name of the aerodrome. And then, yeah and we went on and ended up in India. And in the course of our flight we were due to go up to a place called Chittagong which was on the border of Burma and India, as it was then. Right. Whilst flying we were in the first three aircraft going to the Far East. The rest would follow on later. And we were diverted to a place called Digri, in the Bay of Bengal and 9 Squadron was with us. We were diverted to a place called Salboni which was within car distance if you like, you know. So we were soon friendly with them. And we continued to practice bombing. The Americans had been at Digri and Salboni before us and had left the day before. So we had all their rubbish and what have you. Unfortunately our, our radio officer, right, in the squadron who had served with 617 for quite some time and had a lot of experience, right was killed in an accident there. Once we were there. Not flying but on the motorbike. Very very sad, so. He was one of the better types and things like that. Anyway, we then, we were on our, supposedly on our way to Okinawa and the Americans stopped us and they said stay in India. Once we were there we did, again three aircraft did a flying display in New Delhi which was great fun. It was a night flying tattoo kind of thing with searchlights and firing off rocket shells and so forth. And there we are. As I say, I think I, no I didn’t mention it but I think the air force taught us to drink a little bit, you know. And so we had a lot of enjoyment there. And then we flew back. The route we came we flew back and landed in St Mawgan’s in Cornwall. Oh, we were told on, prior to leaving India that we were going on a good will tour, the squadron, to America. This didn’t happen. We got to St Mawgan. We were told, right, leave the aircraft and take everything with you including, including your parachutes and we’ll be in touch. But go home on leave. Which was alright. And I suppose, I suppose it’s only right that the Air Ministry took over the squadron and went on the good will tour [laughs] Something like that happened. Right. There we are and I was recalled to Binbrook, near Grimsby right, where we set up business, if you like as a squadron and [pause] yeah. And from there I was grounded and I got all, they gave you a list of things you wanted to do. And I said, ‘Oh fair enough. Flying control is what I want. Right.’ And I ended up at Wittering in flying control until I was de-mobbed in the winter of 1947. It was a bad winter. I remember the snow. And there we are. Ok. So that’s my air force. Oh yes when, when I, after de-mob I went home to Cardiff. Lived with my parents until I got married at the age of twenty nine. Right. And, but I was in the RAF VR and I joined the local flying school and I flew every weekend without fail. Without uniform. No uniforms. Right. Terrific time for seven years.
HH: And is that how come you had two service numbers?
RW: Yes. Yeah. 2604304 the other one. Yeah. There was. That’s why I have a good memory. Do you want to hear my later life or not.
HH: I definitely do. I think that would be most useful.
RW: It’s ever so boring but would you like to listen?
HH: No. It’s not boring at all.
RW: It’s not, it took us approximately, approximately twenty one months to two years in some cases to get to a squadron from the beginning. So it was a very thorough training. Very thorough. It was very mixed and unfortunately things happened. People went sick or whatever. There we are. Anyway, having got de-mobbed, when I’d left school originally in Pembroke Dock at the age of fifteen, war started. There was no way you could do much. Anyway, I joined a wine and spirit merchants. It was a nice little job but again we were bombed out so we moved on to Cardiff. And there I joined the air force from there but my cousin, who was [pause] had a great influence with me. A boy entrant. Was of exactly that. Right. Flight lieu, later became a flight lieutenant observer. Being a boy entrant himself he had, he’d been in, he was, he was thirty when he was killed on 627 Squadron. 627 Squadron at Woodhall Spa on Pathfinders. A great pity. There we are. But he was the influence of attracting me to the air force and we kept in touch right until he was killed. I would have ended up with him had he survived but there we are. On the same station. But there we are. Right. After the war. I took several courses in, after the war ended. I was very friendly at Waddington with an EVT training officer. Education vocation which they, they tried to interest you in your civilian life. And I actually remember we were very friendly. So he sent me off on several courses and they said, ‘Oh you would do well as a travelling salesman.’ I said, ‘Oh yes,’ you know, and listened to it all. Anyway, I joined the Prudential Assurance Company at Cardiff. I had several interviews. I was accepted. And I stayed with them all my working life. This was in 1947. I became, I was seconded to South Africa and became general manager of the African business. Which was good. I moved a lot. I was, it was like the air force. I never seemed to say no [laughs] And when they said we’d like you to go somewhere. Somewhere, right. I readily agreed. And I was going to South Africa for two years. I’d already been a divisional manager in the UK. And they said. ‘Look. Just for two years, family,’ go and do this. Will you do that? And I’m still in South Africa after forty years. We loved it so much. There we are.
HH: And did you stay in the same job even, even though you didn’t —
RW: Well. Put it this way —
HH: Outstayed your two years.
RW: I, I, yes. The general management. I was in the top job you know so I mean I didn’t have anything to do with life insurance. Everything, all liability insurances. Everything with the household. Motor. What have you. I was in charge of it in Africa. From Nairobi right down to Jo’berg. So fortunately I did well. We got involved with various mergers which I hated. And [pause] but I came out of it alright naturally but the thing is that we did this and I eventually resigned when I was fifty six years of age. I started my own business which was, don’t ask me why, it was madness, right — which was broking. And because I was well known at the time, to be quite frank and other companies, I had a lot, a lot of support and the business did take off. And the result is that when I eventually retired for the final time I was sixty nine — 1994 was it? Yeah. And there were political changes in South Africa and everything. And we still had property. A house in the UK. And we went back there for a while but eventually we returned to South Africa. We had a daughter, son, grandchildren, the lot, which we love and, and I still enjoy it.
HH: So that’s how come you’re still in Fourways.
RW: Yes. That’s right. In Fourways.
HH: So where had you lived before in South Africa?
RW: Ok. We lived in Hyde Park, or Craighall Park, more to the point. Near Hyde Park. Buckingham Avenue. And we had a lovely property there and were very happy. But we went to, when we returned, I always remember where we lived was a place called Cedar Lakes, Broadacres, Fourways and our son lived there. And he was very well educated. He had a PhD and things like this. And we were visiting him for a [unclear] or something or other and I sat under a rondavel on the estate which I subsequently, where we subsequently lived. And I said, ‘Jeremy,’ and I said, ‘I’d better speak to your wife as well. Would you be upset if we came to live on this estate?’ He said he’d be delighted, you know. So the house, bought a house, and that is where we are. And our daughter lives in Bryanston and they have a larger property shall is say and two beautiful grandchildren and everybody’s very very happy.
HH: Well. it’s lovely to be close to family. There’s no point living here if all your family are there.
RW: Well this is it exactly, you know and yes and if I’ve bored you please —
HH: That was a wonderful story. And you’ve kept, how have you kept in touch with, with Bomber Command?
RW: Oh yeah. Not really. We have, it’s [pause] I’m a member of 207 Squadron Association. I’m a member 617 Association but they’re not so well presented if you like with the paperwork there. 207 is exceptional. Somebody there who is the son of somebody who was killed and he took over the secretary’s job and he’s done a marvelous job, so he does keep us up to date. Right. 617 we get notices but obviously, you know, there’s nothing. 617 is a very, how can say, a modern squadron. Right. 617, Tornadoes and what have you. Right. But we used to go, but as I say that’s after that thirty year cycle, right. We had notice and we went to, we had an invite, we lived in Chester at the time and we had an invite to go to Scampton, right, for a presentation of squadron colours. Which was, if my memory is correct was ’59, 1959, our daughter wasn’t born till 1958 so, yeah. I think it was 1959 and that was the first time after the war we got together. We soon knew several who were regulars in the air force there. And then after [pause] sorry my mind’s wandering again. The, yeah, we’re in ‘59 and later on there was a whole Bomber Command reunion. Reunion where Harris was there. And it was at Brize Norton in Oxfordshire. And I remember I didn’t sit at 617. I sat with 207 Squadron. And I did know two people who have since died. But other than that we have had no contact at all.
HH: And Harris also went to Southern Africa didn’t he?
RW: Who?
HH: Harris.
RW: Oh yeah. Well he was Rhodesian.
HH: Yeah.
RW: And do you know where he stayed? He lived actually. The Mount Nelson Hotel. One thing I can maybe offer at this point, one thing I do not understand is he had children. Young children. I couldn’t understand this because he was in his 40s when operational. So I don’t know whether, nothing has ever been said about family or wife or anything, but yes. He had a, yeah if everything I read is, or read is correct then he is treated badly. But there, that’s nature of things you know.
HH: Yeah.
RW: Any direct questions?
HH: You have given us a lovely story and thank you so much for that.
RW: No.
HH: I think you deserve a drink in the Dambusters now.
RW: Yeah. I used to enjoy going, oh sorry we went to one or two, quite a few before I went back to South Africa. We went to the reunions at the Petwood which we enjoyed very much and everything. But I didn’t operate with 617. I was operational but not war time.
HH: Yeah.
RW: Ok.
HH: 617, yeah.
RW: With 617. Get my facts straight, you know. But again the more you read about things and if you read them and a very good friend of mine who was never aircrew but very very interested in everything and he, he went right through and he always enlarged things. And in fact, I’m a bit cross because, not for this but I had the, when we went to 617 they still had the clapper aircraft. Are you familiar with the clapper? Before the big bomber one. And again to be edited is whether we were told, my memories of [unclear] were told I’m not so sure or whether I read it. Right, but those aircraft had to be disposed of quickly because 617, so I was led to believe, right, to be listed as war criminals if the war hadn’t ended. That’s why they had two different identifications. KC and AJ was the — you know all this don’t you? Eh?
HH: Well it’s interesting to hear it from you. Yeah.
RW: Yeah. But the other time is very of interest which is worth researching was when we were in India the wars were over. Right. The Jap war had just finished and we had stopped. Well, again, aircraft were bombed up ready to fly over the Indian fleet which had mutinied in 1946. The beginning of 1946. Whether that’s true but my memory. You have no recollection?
HH: Sounds worth following up.
RW: And again it goes on , you see. Prompt things. I tried to research that because I thought well was it true or did I imagine it? But we weren’t involved. We were involved with flying with the squadron but not, but one aircraft supposedly flew over the destroyers or whatever the navy. Somewhere near Bombay and a white flag went up. But nothing happened. But that, tell me if my memory is playing. When I came, apart from all of this, when I was on the Number 3 Flying School in Cardiff, right, after the war, I really, that was great. Absolutely. Every weekend. I loved it.
HH: Sounds wonderful.
RW: Having said that I still had to do so many flights away from Cardiff and I went twice, I think to Lyneham. Transport Command. And flew out with the crew to somewhere, all right. It was a holiday for me and they picked me up on the way back. And then yeah. That’s where I lost my logbook.
HH: Oh you lost your logbook.
RW: I left it at Lyneham. I left it at Lyneham to be written up because we got back on a Saturday. Everything was closed. That’s the last I saw of it. But there —
HH: Do you know what ever happened to it?
RW: No. No. Just there amongst a lot of paper. Anyway.
HH: Thank you so much for your interview. That was a real treat to listen to your story. Thank you so much.
RW: I don’t. But wartime is, you know full but that’s alright. Later on. Many years after the war ended we had young children and we had a caravan towed and one of our many trips was to Italy. Italy? Yeah. And it was called in Venice Audi and SU Holiday Camp. The German company had provided their staff with a holiday. Anyway we went there and being German everything was precision. You lined your caravan up etcetera and right opposite us was a German family. And then, we both had young children so he invited us for a drink and we accepted. And having said this he brought up the war, you know and all this, ‘What did you do?’ And every time he was having swig he’d slap you on the back, you know. And I said, you know, he was an ex-U- boat commander. And it turned out he was in one of the U-boats where we dropped our, on our last trip.
HH: Isn’t that extraordinary?
RW: Yeah. Yeah. And he worked for the German Motor Company.
HH: That you should have met up in that context.
RW: Yeah.
HH: After the war.
RW: Yeah. There we are. I might have glossed over a little bit. Please edit it as you see fit.
HH: Thank you so much for that.
RW: Right then.
[recording paused]
RW: But what I would say about medals is I am quite anti because of the attitude after the war ended of the politicians regarding the recognizing, the proper recognition. The proper recognition of Bomber Command which, as to ending the war early. Right. The, I’m also anti the medals situation because in my case I am entitled I suppose to maybe three or, or mainly three medals which would be the end of the war, the defence and the France and Germany medal. I’m not so sure I’m entitled to the 1939 ’45 because you had to be, if my memory serves me correct, a minimum of three months on a squadron but you could finish your operations and be gone. You know, so you could die in your first raid but so I’ve never bothered to apply. And that’s still the position. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWoodhouseRM151001
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert Woodhouse
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:50:11 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Heather Hughes
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-01
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Woodhouse was living in Pembroke Dock when the bombing of the town began. The family relocated to Cardiff when they lost their home in the bombing. In Cardiff Robert joined the Air Training Corps. He had a cousin who had already joined the RAF as a boy entrant and he wanted to follow in his footsteps. He volunteered and began training as a wireless operator. He was posted to 207 Squadron at RAF Wigsley. A German aircraft infiltrated the bomber stream after an operation and was able to bomb the runway thus putting it out of action. The squadron moved to RAF Spilsby and continued operations. The crew had been told by the commanding officer that they had been recommended for Pathfinders but the navigator became ill and the move was cancelled. With his squadron John took part in Operation Dodge. Also on one operation that was aborted John recalled that when they were flying home they dropped their bombs on U-boats heading to their pens. Much later after the war he was on holiday with his family and became friendly with the German family in the next caravan. It transpired that the father had actually been the commander of one of the U-boats that they had attacked.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
South Africa
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1941
1942
1945
1946
1947
14 OTU
207 Squadron
617 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Evanton
RAF Halfpenny Green
RAF Madley
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Spilsby
RAF Wigsley
runway
submarine
Tiger force
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/372/6241/ELampreyPGuntonW[Date]-05.pdf
318a3059dc804918f032e3e43e921a0f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lamprey, Peter
Description
An account of the resource
122 items. The collection contains letters from Flight Sergeant Peter Lamprey (1384535 Royal Air Force) to 'Uncle Bill' W Gunton and his former colleagues at Waterlow Printers, Park Royal, London. The letters cover all his stages of training and operations at Royal Air Force Ludford Magna. A wireless operator / air gunner, he was killed, aged 36, on 14 January 1944 during an operation on Braunschweig when 101 Squadron Lancaster LM367 was attacked by a night fighter and crashed at Lautenthal. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Dereck Titchen and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.<br /><br /> A photograph of Peter and his final resting place appears in the Arthur Standivan collection <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/35884">here.</a><br /><br />Additional information onPeter Lamprey is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/113449/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lamprey, P
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
1384535
A.C.2.Lamprey
2.D.27.
84 [underlined] Dickson [/underlined] Road.
Dear Bill.
Many, many, many thanks for packet. I am returning card signed and will expect money by return. The usual rate for Sunday I see has been suspended. This war is now entering upon a stage of stalemate and things, I am afraid, will move rather more slow than of late. We still do the same tricks only now we either do them well – bad or, if you happen to be in the rear rank, not at all. This Mor [inserted] s [/inserted] e business gets a bit of a bind. Di-di-da-dit now forms most of our conversation and any moment you expect one of the mob to start running up the wall, which is about all you can afford to get up in Blackpool. The price is a fur coat up here and only the Poles can afford it, mind you, we are all saving up hard, but its [sic] not money were [sic] saving. This is a great life and I feel really fit. Fit for nothing, in fact even my uniform fits somebody else. You get quite a lot of fun laughing at the funny looking perishers over there until you notice its [sic] your own reflection. The ideas in the RAF are a bit different to
[page break]
Army ones. The Army swings its arms, we swing the lead and continue to do so even off parade. Tell the boys not to worry about being called up, wait till they’re in, they they’ll have something to worry about. The RAF want men who know something, but only because they like prove [sic] that, after all, you know nothing. I hope none of the boys get sent up here when they are called up as I should hate to meet anyone with money in these dark byways. I have just passed out on my second Morse test since starting this epistle. I have also been definitely accepted for air-crew by the final selection board so am feeling rather bucked. By the way that last word is spelt right, the other one is used when I come in off rifle-drill. I am going to see if I can see Harry Lentle tonight and let him have a look at a real airman, theres [sic] plenty in the hotel I use. I write hotel to hoodwink Eddie Hunt as he objects to riotous living on A.C.2’s money. This place is simply lousy with letters, though any letter is welcomed, but actually I am a W. OP/AG/U. T/10R.C.2D27. If you can work that out I am more than suprised [sic] and consider you to be too good for a charge-hand and advise you to remuster as a spotter as they know the answers to every-
[page break]
[underlined] 3 [/underlined]
bit of crooked work going. Our dear Sergeant goes on leave this week-end and we hope to convince him that a single ticket is a lot cheaper and saves half the journey, but we have not much hope of success as he evidently likes our company the way he hangs around. Living in the lap of luxury up here must make you poor devils envious and any tips I can give you, you are welcome to. If you want to know how we make our money go round we swing our arms, it’s the only way. Don’t think that I imagine you have no worries and trouble. If you haven’t I am deeply sorry. If I suffer its [sic] in good cause or else someone’s been kidding me and they’d better be careful, I can stand so much but at the present moment I can just stand myself a couple of beers and thats [sic] about all. This war business again interrupted this letter and this is the third go I’ve had at it and shall now concentrate on finishing it and let the war run its course without my help for the time being. I failed to find Harry Lentle last night but being in the know I can easily find him sometime this week and give him the benefit of my vast experience. This will doubtless help him to make this war an
[page break]
interesting experience that he’d wish he’d dodged. Coming away from the seamy side of life I hope all the other lads are doing as well as me and finding things as entertaining. Let me know how much Frank Batchelor hates it and if anyone else has received their cards. Remember me to everyone and express my sympathy to H. Straw and B. Wall and tell them its [sic] in my diary when I visit. Give Dave my kind regards and tell him not to let Rusty shove him about. Remember me to the Guv’nor, Bill Thornhill & George Francis. I’ll be seeing you one day.
Best of luck.
Pete.
P.S. Keep your chin up and I’ll be down to have a smack at it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Peter Lamprey to W Gunton
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Lamprey writes of his life towards the end of his basic training for the Royal Air Force basic in Blackpool. He mentions Morse code training and that he has been accepted for aircrew.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter Lamprey
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Four-page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ELampreyPGuntonW[Date]-05
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lancashire
England--Blackpool
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
military living conditions
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/372/6244/ELampreyPGuntonW[Date]-08.pdf
052527db3f216c5c9525c64790d1b2e5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lamprey, Peter
Description
An account of the resource
122 items. The collection contains letters from Flight Sergeant Peter Lamprey (1384535 Royal Air Force) to 'Uncle Bill' W Gunton and his former colleagues at Waterlow Printers, Park Royal, London. The letters cover all his stages of training and operations at Royal Air Force Ludford Magna. A wireless operator / air gunner, he was killed, aged 36, on 14 January 1944 during an operation on Braunschweig when 101 Squadron Lancaster LM367 was attacked by a night fighter and crashed at Lautenthal. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Dereck Titchen and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.<br /><br /> A photograph of Peter and his final resting place appears in the Arthur Standivan collection <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/35884">here.</a><br /><br />Additional information onPeter Lamprey is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/113449/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lamprey, P
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
1384535.
A.C.2. Lamprey.
2 wing. D27.
84 Dickson Rd.
[underlined] Blackpool. [/underlined]
Dear Bill.
This time the pen is lifted and a more sombre note is struck. The veil is drawn and at last before your horrified gaze, there passes the pageant of youth of the country attempting to get by in the Morse wing. Having succeeded in scraping the fat from our bones with a rifle, they are now attempting to remove the bones piecemeal by intensive P.T. four hours per diem is devoted to Morse, when you have had this you [sic] brain is dripping from your ears and the next proceedure [sic] is to get it back. This is done by plenty of excersise [sic] and when your head is spinning with it, the old grey matter slips back and the vital operation is complete. We have as a P.T. Sergeant a professional acrobat in civvy life and the only trick he can’t do is disappear off the end of the pier. We are subscribing for a book for him to learn it. The parcel arrived safely, for which many thanks. Corn in Egypt is the phrase most suitable. One query I have to ask, why did you only put Eddy Hunts’
[page break]
[underlined] 2. [/underlined]
draw tickets in the box? Surely some of my other friends support the scheme. I thank all who wrote praising me for the R.A.F. successes against night bombing but wish to point out that I have some slight [deleted] assisst [/deleted] assistance in this business and I do not do it all by myself. All I do absolutely on my own is sleep; one of my grievances. Even had you not informed me that the Ginger Cat was back on the job I should have known by the parcel etc. Tell him to put plenty of weight on before they call him so they have something to work on. When I strip down now, my shape is so different I keep thinking its [sic] a stranger standing about. I feel a new man, what feeling I have left. Lumps have appeared where no lumps grew before and I have developed muscles in the most unexpected places, notably the right arm and can now carry a full glass safely across a crowded bar. They are now promising seven days leave to all airman who pass out in the Morse School, there are plenty here who will pass out in the Morse School and quite a few who will pass out on the parade ground. Everything we have learnt these past weeks is, according to the old sergeant, wrong, and we are all having a very nice time, thank you, learning to do it right. If he can get our mob right in the time I believe they are going to decorate him. Quite a few of boys would like a
[page break]
[underlined] 3. [/underlined]
hand in the decoration. We are quite old sweats now as understood by the RAF. That means we can do something wrong, be bawled out, told how to do it, shown how to do it, and do it wrong again. This is always a sure fire winner with the crowd that gathers to watch us drill and next week, being a broke week, we will most likely make a collection. We see plenty of shows here, very cheap and very humourous [sic]. They train the army on the front as well and we often stroll along and point out the faults. They best way to bring the pains on is to tell them not to worry, we can use the rifles.
I see you are having rather a hot time lately, if you can only hold them off for another year or two I shall be ready to climb into the ring and deliver the knock-out, if you can’t hold them off and feel yourself weakening, sell my tools and send me the money just before the end. You will notice by the way that I have moved my billets and am now in with eleven other herbs. We notice with pleasure, that there is plenty of room left in the house for summer visitors, we have church parade Sunday and twelve good men and true will pray for the right occupants of the rooms. Taken by and large this war is running true to form, we are happy in our misery here, knowing the vital part we are playing is helping to spend the twelve million a day. The only snag is
[page break]
they don’t let us handle enough of it or we could always push the figure up a bit. This must now close as I want to be turned out of the Carlton Hotel as usual so thanking everybody at home, from this far flung outpost of civilisation I will say cheerio.
Harry Lentle wrote to me and I am enclosing a note for him which will help him in the great game he is getting in on. Remember me to Bert Smith and all the maintenance and to all my friends doing their best to make this country safe for [deleted] te [/deleted] the RAF to live in.
[All the Best in Morse Code]
[underlined] Pete. [/underlined]
P.S. Thank Bill Spalding – Eddie Hunt – Harry Staw – Fred Honeycombe – the Four Spotters etc [sic] for their most welcome notes. If you have any troubles dont [sic] forget to write and tell me, I like a good laugh.
Pete.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Peter Lamprey to W Gunton
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Lamprey writes about his life in the Royal Air Force including intensive physical training and Morse code training.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter Lamprey
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Four page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ELampreyPGuntonW[Date]-08
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lancashire
England--Blackpool
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/372/6530/ELampreyPGuntonW[Date]-20.pdf
b7d60e55386d7d99acba7899588bd0a3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lamprey, Peter
Description
An account of the resource
122 items. The collection contains letters from Flight Sergeant Peter Lamprey (1384535 Royal Air Force) to 'Uncle Bill' W Gunton and his former colleagues at Waterlow Printers, Park Royal, London. The letters cover all his stages of training and operations at Royal Air Force Ludford Magna. A wireless operator / air gunner, he was killed, aged 36, on 14 January 1944 during an operation on Braunschweig when 101 Squadron Lancaster LM367 was attacked by a night fighter and crashed at Lautenthal. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Dereck Titchen and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.<br /><br /> A photograph of Peter and his final resting place appears in the Arthur Standivan collection <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/35884">here.</a><br /><br />Additional information onPeter Lamprey is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/113449/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lamprey, P
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
1384535 A.C.2. Lamprey.
Signals Section.
H.Q. 14 Group. RAF.
Inverness.
[underlined] Scotland. [/underlined]
Dear Bill and those who wish me well
I have a sordid tale to tell
Of one who would – an airman be,
Who went and signed as W.OP/A.G.
Now when the fatal papers came
(the same to which he’d signed his name)
He left his home – and went to find,
If he was lame: or halt: or blind.
They tapped him there – they tapped him here
And said “it really does appear –
As if at last, we did not fail
To find the ultra – perfect male”
His final test seemed rather crude
And might to some – appear quite rude
For when he turned his head to cough,
They nearly tore the damn things off.
But finally then sent him forth
And posted him – somewhere up north.
[inserted] PTO. [/inserted]
[page break]
[underlined] 2. [/underlined]
Now in this town of great repute
They gave him such a lovely suit
With loads of other things to pack
And learn to carry on his back.
Then wheeled him out upon the square
And lined him up with special care
With heaps of others of his make
Who’d made the same futile mistake.
And there his troubles really start
A sergeant with a stony heart,
Made him drill and do P.T.
Until, as far as he could see,
A horse’s life was one long laze
Compared with how he spent his days.
From that – he started on his course,
And weeks and weeks he spent at Morse,
His sanity – he hardly kept
He sent the damn stuff as he slept.
And when he thought he’d learnt the lot
They sent him to another spot
And bashed the Morse at him again
Until he’d got it on his brain.
[inserted] Cont on [underlined] P.3 [/underlined] [/inserted]
[page break]
[underlined] 3. [/underlined]
At last they said “here starts the fun,
We’ll show you how to use a gun
And just what tricks, to bear in mind,
When Jerry’s coming up behind”.
He learnt each little lark he could,
And said he really understood;
To always try and [deleted] an [/deleted] be the first,
To get in with a [deleted] lo [/deleted] nice long burst
That stopped his dirty little games
And shot the blighter down in flames.
At last the day he did receive
Three tapes to sew upon his sleeve
And realized at last that he
Had passed out as a WO/P/AG
The big day [deleted] indecipherable letter [/deleted] came – to his elation
Off he flew on operation
Heeding not the months he’d spent
Off at last – at last content
So his tale must close at last
Rueing not his bitter past
Heedless of lifes [sic] bitter knocks
He came back in a wooden box.
What a life.
[page break]
Of course you don’t finish up in a wooden box but I couldn’t get “wiped him out of the back turret” to rhyme – still you get the idea. A fat lot you care, you haven’t signed as one.
Thank everyone for their wishes - their letters - their books. One of these days I’ll compose a poem in praise of the chapel – when I’ve saved enough to get properly drunk. Tell Charlie to use the other hand – there are fingerprints all over his last letter.
Best of luck
Three cheers
[underlined] Pete. [/underlined]
P.S. If Moloney ever thinks of writing I shan’t believe it – it would be miracle even if he could think.
[underlined] P. [/underlined]
P.P.S. Get Eddie Hunt to kiss Moloney for me, they’ll both die of poisoning.
P.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Peter Lamprey to W Gunton
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Lamprey writes about basic and wireless operator/air gunner training in the form of a poem.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter Lamprey
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Four page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Text. Poetry
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ELampreyPGuntonW[Date]-20
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Scotland--Highlands
Scotland--Inverness
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
aircrew
arts and crafts
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Inverness
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/44/6645/ABarfootWE151208.2.mp3
1b5f298e0d48f0992512af90412e5b70
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barfoot, William
William Barfoot
W Barfoot
W E Barfoot
William E Barfoot
Description
An account of the resource
56 items. An oral history interview with William Ernest Barfoot (915770, 141457 Royal Air Force), and photographs of him school in India, during training and on operations with 296 Squadron. They include images of Albemarle and Halifax glider tugs, Horsa gliders, landing zones, and his wedding photographs.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Nigel Barfoot and catalogued by Terry Hancock.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-08
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Barfoot, W
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB. My name is Chris Brockbank and I am with Squadron Leader William Barfoot and we are in Birmingham talking about his very varied experiences in the war. Bill would you like to start off with your early days, where you were born where you were schooled.
WB. I was born in Newcastle upon Tyne so I’m a Geordie, but I was taken to India when I was about six, five or six and I didn’t come back to just before the war. In India I went to that school the Laurence Memorial Royal Military School now called the Laurence School. It em its a military school in that you couldn’t go to the school unless you had been in the British Army or the British Navy, the Air Force wasn’t in great shape at that time, and your parents had to be one of those two. And then er I just had a secondary school education, I left school in 1936 and I went to Bombay University because the intention was to send me to either Oxford or Cambridge, both required Latin in those days and I hadn’t done Latin and I hadn’t done Latin because we done localised languages like Undra. So I went to the University to learn Latin and then eh, differences arose in the family of the financing of the thing so I left India altogether and eh came back to this country, when I came back to this country we [garbled] and so on. As a side line I was invited to stay at some Barracks in Woking, I forget the name of the Barracks now with the Father of two daughters, I eventually married one of them. [laugh]. I was twenty and seventeen, I actually met them in India before I came here, but they were in school and I was at a different school, so we didn’t really get to know each other until I came back to this country and I was seventeen. I was twenty and she was seventeen so that was a dangerous situation. I then got married and later on during the war, it’s the only dish. Incidentally I can’t give dates because we have lost the vital documents that would have given us this information, namely the flying log book and we have moved about four times after I left the Air Force and somewhere it has got lost. At least we haven’t found it yet, this is the point. So I can’t give you dates but I can tell you places I went to. I started off with, oh, I applied for a short service commission and I was accepted but then hostilities broke out. I then got a letter that cancelled the short service commission, so I then joined the Air Force as an Airman at a place I can’t remember now in London. We didn’t do much there except possibly square bashing, we were issued with uniforms and the usual sort of things, and the one, the one point when there, we were all given ten shillings in advance to buy blanco and shoe polish and what have you and it so happened that almost the same week there was a pay parade and we of course had to attend because discipline required it. There, there was a chap called Manning, that’s right. Puffy Manning we called him because he was a bit plump. The drill was of course, the Accounting Officer he would sit at the table and he would have an accounting Airman there. The Airman would call out your name and you would actually, this was the last three numbers of your name, walk up to the desk, salute and collect the money. Well Puffy Manning did all this correctly and the Clerk read out two shillings and sixpence. The Accounting Officer put a half crown on the thing. Puffy Manning tossed it up in the air and it bounced off the table and Puffy Manning said “buy yourself a cigar Sir.” Apparently the Station Warrant Officer nearly fainted and he said “arrest that man” and of course he was taken away to the Guard Room. He was very lucky because his Flight Commander was quite sympathetic and let him off with a caution. So anyway that’s what happened at that place which I can’t remember now. Em after that, where did I go then? Oh went to,” Nigel what’s the name of that place where we came in?”
Nigel “Kidderminster”
WB. Kidderminster, yes where there was a [unreadable] where we did one, to the front salute and all that sort of stuff, sort of bashing. After that I was taken to an airfield called Hullavington which was near Chippenham and over there, it was at the time when there was a fear of German invasion you know Dunkirk was just over. We were issued with obsolescent Canadian rifles and five rounds of ammunition to deal with the invasion of the Germans. Eh, Eh one night an old German aircraft flew over the airfield and scattered a few bombs on the airfield. We then said this is it you know, this is the invasion. So we all rushed out to our appointed positions but then it all went quiet and nothing happened. We stayed there for about two hours and suddenly there was a shot and the Orderly Officer went to see what it was all about. The airman said “I saw a movement down there and challenged him three times, he didn’t answer, so I shot.” He shot a horse, the Farmer was exactly delighted the next day. Anyway that’s what happened at Hullavington.
I worked in the cookhouse funnily enough there and eh [garbled] a parade a [unreadable] parade. I worked in the cookhouse and we were excused the parade. We used to all stand there and present arms with a broom and sing here comes the Air Vice Marshall he’s got lots and lots of rings but only got one arsehole.[laugh] Anyway from there, from Hullavington I then went to Yatesbury eh, and Compton Bassett, both close together and where I trained as a Wireless Operator eh. I was, we flew in Dragons I think or whatever they were called.
CB. Dragon Rapide
WB. That’s right Dragon Rapide, for practice at sending messages and receiving messages on the flight. I don’t know how long the course lasted but it was quite long. I learnt morse, its abolished now, but I tell you what, my morse code. Everybody who learns morse never forgets it and I got up to about twenty two words a minute which was quite good at that time. After Yatesbury and Compton Bassett I then was posted to Digby to Number 46 Squadron, Hurricanes as a Wireless Operator. We did sort of servicing on the Aircraft. The Squadron was then moved down to eh, forgot the name of the place to eh, Sherburn in Elmet which is in Yorkshire. My Squadron moved down there and shortly afterwards they eh, were detailed to go out to the Middle East. I was held back because I had volunteered for Aircrew. I told the admin staff and the next thing was to go down to London to ACRC which we called arsey tarsey of course. You get a written examination, virtually all maths and eh after that I was sent to Downing College in Cambridge where we did our initial training, were we learned the various fundamentals of the various activities in the Air Force. After Cambridge, after that eh, oh my next movement was to the EANS or Elementary Air Navigation School at a place near Brighton. Town near Brighton.
Prompt. Where at Eastbourne.
WB. At Eastbourne, we occupied the Eastbourne Grammar School and eh and that’s where we learned the very early functions of Navigation. After that, which place did I go from there? Oh yes I think it was called Heaton or High Heaton or something like that, it was the holding place for people travelling abroad. And so ah, I was put aboard an aircraft, I have forgotten the name of the ship, they were all Castle ships, something Castle you know and eh. We sailed first to Brazil of all places eh where we went ashore and were made very welcome and eh we crossed over to Capetown and eh we got off at Capetown and went by rail to a place called Grahamstown which is the sort of University town of South Africa where we were made very welcome because most of the people there were of British origin, so we had a lovely time there. Then we began to train Navigation seriously, flying in Ansons with South African Pilots and I forgot how long the course took. I think it took quite a time about six months, I could be wrong eh. I was then Commissioned as a Pilot Officer and we went to another ship of course to cross the Atlantic with the Italian prisoners of war. We put them out in New York and filled the, and filled the boat or ship with American soldiers to come back to the UK. Funnily enough I remember it was the time the Dambusters broke the Dams and the New York papers were full of it and they made a great fuss of us did the Americans. I remember two of them, when I was with a friend and someone stopping me to give me theatre tickets to go in. Incidentally the pound was worth four dollars in those days so it was quite expensive. Anyway we then sailed back to UK I think we went to Greenock I think, I can’t really remember we were given two, two weeks holiday on leave, eh. That’s when I went to, the only days I can remember for that period is the 27th of May Nineteen fift, Nineteen forty three which is of course the date I got married. I subsequently lived with her for sixty nine and a half years and then she died. Then we went back and went to Wigtown which is in Scotland, that was an advanced flying unit we flew in Ansons and then we went to Kinloss. When we went to Kinloss the funny thing that happened we were just turned into a room, a crowd of people, most of whom were Sergeants and told to form Crew em. Inevitably because there were more Sergeants than anything else I ended up in a Crew where I was the only Officer the rest were all Sergeants. We then had a mixed period which I forget. I remember an airfield and a road travelling through it, I can’t remember what the name of the airfield was. And we very shortly found out why we were sent on various courses. I was sent on a Gee course, Gee was then the, the very sensational Navigation Aid. The first time we had anything that was anything like accurate you know sort of like Astro Navigation you were jolly lucky to get ten miles from your accurate position. Where as with Gee you got right to the spot and it was absolutely sensational. The other thing I did during that period I did a map reading course in Tiger Moths at Worcester Race Course and just flew around, very happy times. I got on very well with the Pilot had a go of flying the Tiger Moth but we were all over the place.
The reason being off course, we were being held back for 296 Squadron, which had, was returning from the Middle East and. We were held back because we were going to reinforce them and they were, where were they? Earls Colne that where they reformed. I was made the Squadron Navigation Officer because we only had two Officers amongst the Navigators and This is where we went with Albemarle’s for the first time, we never heard of Albemarle’s before, it was the only aircraft in the RAF that had a tricycle undercarriage and therefore very suitable for glider towing. You know the glider goes off first and then you go off and, and eh we started operating from there [Garbled]. We later moved to Brize Norton and Brize Norton became our permanent base. But we flew from Earls Colne for quite a while. We spent time reinforcing French Resistance Groups but obviously it was a slow process because you had to organise the Group. They also did Norway as well in the Albemarles. The Albemarle was a very bad aircraft for the Navigator because they had forgotten that they needed a Navigator. It had switches all over the place, down there, up there later on when we converted to Halifax’s it was absolute luxury to have all these instruments in front of you. But eh, eh, anyway we flew surprise Resistance Groups, they didn’t come too often because, obviously I had to organise the Groups carefully because the Gestapo were on the lookout all the time. We used to fly round about six thousand feet and then we would have to find the Resistance Group which usually had four torches in a field in the form of an arrow and the bottom line of the arrow would flash a code, Morse code, which we had been given. When we saw that we dropped down to about five hundred feet and dropped the supplies and flew on so the Gestapo didn’t see, the whereas, dropped there and turning away and that’s what we did. We did one or two in Norway as well but Norway was a bit frightening because it was a bit mountainous compared with France.
The other thing was our other function on Special Operations was towing of gliders. It was obvious there was going to be a big glider operation and they needed these Crews trained. The trouble with the, with towing gliders is A. Your speed drops, you get down to Anson speeds and secondly you can’t manoeuvre because you have a glider full of Troops behind you. So when we went on and we did the first one was D day, when you went on these Operations you had a very hairy Fighter Escort. You needed it because you were very vulnerable funnily enough we didn’t lose many because by then we had complete Air Superiority and eh you didn’t get too much interference. We did two other glider operations, one was at Arnhem in Holland and that was a disaster. Not from the air point of view we dropped them all in the right place at the right time. The thing was the Intelligence had not discovered there was a German Armoured Division in Holland and of course our Troops who were Airborne Troops were comparatively lightly armed of course they suffered very heavy casualties and eh. They were supposed to capture the Bridge at Nijmegen so the Second Army I think it was could proceed on and race towards Berlin, but they never got the Bridge of course. As I have said they had very heavy casualties and eh, that was that.
The third operation that we had with gliders was eh, Rhine crossing and we were getting near the end of the war there and eh, the eh, Germans put some of the Troops, in the woods resting from Operations, not too far away and eh so we were detailed for the first time ever to carry bombs. Bye the way we now had converted to Halifax’s for the [unreadable]. We had Albemarle’s for the other two eh, for the Rhine crossing we had Halifax’s which were much better. All your equipment from the Navigator point of view, direct compass everything, everything, APR all the lot was in the one compartment. You could see it all in front of you where as in the Albemarle you were doing this sort of thing. The other advantage of the Halifax, I sat on the escape hole but we didn’t need to use it. We did in fact loose our Rear Gunner, but that was not our aircraft. His friend had a girlfriend in the local village and he had a date with her that night so Jimmy Osall who was our Rear Gunner offered to stand in for him, instead of him, never came back. After that more or less the war was beginning to end then we flew eh, incidentally we did convert to Stirling’s before we went to Halifax’s but fortunately we never used the Stirling. Something I didn’t mention when I spoke about Kinloss, we flew Whitley’s there and, and, it was known as the flying coffin of course and it was a very slow aircraft, only had two engines , it was supposed to be a bomber. We did cross country flying but they didn’t risk sending us on Operations in them because we would never have come back.
Anyway we then flew VIPs, from,who fled to England during the Invasion by and large VIPs we flew them to Oslo. We also flew eh, Concentration Camp survivors to Greece, we did two of those and I think that was the end of the war and I was then posted to, oh yes I was posted to Staff Navigator Course after the war ended and eh and I was posted to when I had done the course, I done that at Shawbury by the way. When I done that course I was, I was em where was I then, oh yes I went to join 242 Squadron it was a Transport Squadron flying to the Far East. Eh, we were stationed at Oakington in Cambridge. Then we were moved to a place near Christchurch, Mosley, Mousley something like that Moseley which upset my Wife quite much because she got really settled in Cambridge and rather liked it and so did I. So I got onto the Navigation Boss, where was he? I have forgotten where he was and I said I wanted to go back to Cambridge. So eh ah they managed to sort it out, so I left 242 Squadron and went back to Cambridge, this time to Waterbeach which was also a Cambridge airfield, or was. Then vacancies were coming up the Air Force was running short, we hadn’t got a third category of Navigator, a specialist Navigator and a specialist Navigator was supposed to liaise with Scientists on possible uses for Navigation purposes. Em so I went on that course, also to Shawbury, Shawbury[unreadable] Empire Navigation School. Was then the central Navigation School for Navigation purposes and that’s where I went for the and then after that I was posted to er, where was it, near Darlington.
Interruption. Middleton St George.
WB. Middleton St George, yes Middleton St George where I was teaching Navigation to Bomb Aimers who had converted to Navigators em and eh. Then after that I then ended up to, to em oh that incidentally is when Nigel was born. I went to, we went to Ceylon where we were stationed at Degummed airfield. Em [unreadable] nothing there and then after about a year in Ceylon I was posted to Singapore and eh in Singapore, I was promoted to Squadron Leader then. I became Airhead Forces Malaya Navigation Representative and eh and advised them on Navigation. What did we do, I did do .The Korean War was on at the same time and some of our aircraft in Malaya were taking part in the war, mostly Flying Boats that were patrolling the seas around Korea. They were having trouble with the long range Navigation aid that the Americans had invented [unreadable] to Gee. They were having trouble with it, so I was sent via Hong Kong out in another Flying Boat to see if they could correct it which I succeeded to do and I flew on ops in Korea in the Flying Boat. And also at the same time we got a Typhoon, or what are the local thingies called, probably call a Tsunami now, which badly damaged one of the Flying Boats. So I got signal back from HQ Malaya to investigate the damage to this Flying Boat. I then came back to the UK, I then came back to Singapore and that’s when I came to the UK.
Then I went to the Air Ministry for about a year and then I was posted to Castle Bromwich as Station Commander. I em, we still had several lodger units there. 7 Police District, an ATC unit and Army AOP Flight, 2605 Fighter Control eh Fighter Exercise. We had several aircraft Austers and AOP Flight I forget what they flew, gliders for the ATC, University Air Squadron, Chipmunk, they were on our eh, my airfield and I think that was about it, the lot of them. Eh after that I was posted, I oh, I did two years or we did two years at Castle Bromwich where we did Battle of Britain Displays each and we were eh, highest in the Country. I don’t know if it was because the people of Birmingham were very generous. I think part of it was that we had the British Industries Fair at the side. We done quite well out of that I should think we charged them a pound for parking there eh that pushed up the Benevolent fund and we did quite well out of it I should think.
Then I got my last posting which was to run the Staff Navigation Course at Shawbury. So I had three goes at Shawbury. I liked Shawbury it was one of my favourite airfields and then I left the Air Force. And and Then I went over to BMC as the em Career and eh ah as the representative to the Caribbean that was [laugh] that was a treat. It was just after, we were still on rations in this country and to go there on one of the Islands and order a steak and get something about that big, it was quite an experience. Anyway from then on of course I was in Civvy Street. So I eh finished up doing Management Training in eh training. I was an expert in a technique called [unreadable] which was problem solving and decision making and eh, “what was the other course?” [little confused] “my minds going” [pause].
Nigel? “Transaction Analysis.”
CB. Transaction Analysis yes.
CB. We’ll have a break now.
WB. Yeah. I carried on teaching at, it wasn’t BMC any longer or Leyland as it had been called. But I did several courses for er for the Systems which eventually became, eventually became Unipart didn’t it? I ran a few courses and then no more and lapsed into old age.
CB. What age did you retire?
WB. Sixty five I retired but I still continued to go back to run the odd course. I’d just got paid a fee. That’s about it.[pause]
CB. You ok?
[Possibly a break in the recording]
WB. Its called Decca
CB. We are just talking about Gee and the fact that the Germans jammed it, but you could tell they were jamming it. How did that show on the screen?
WB. The screen went all like that eh eh.
CB. What was the next system?
WB. It was, well Bomber Command resorted to Pathfinders where they used Mosquitoes with things like H2S and eh and other eh quite a lot of stuff that the Mosquitoes carried and they marked the target with em.
CB. With coloured flares ?
WB. With coloured flares, yes and they presumably new the colours beforehand so the Germans could not mark, put these things into operation.
CB. So after, you said there was a different system after Gee, what sort.
WB. Decca
CB. How did that work.
WB. It was similar to Gee, it was very, Gee had a very short range compared with the other things. Decca had a better range, the thing about Decca was that it could be made to give you the wrong information without you realising it. In other words it was possible for the enemy or the Germans if you like to make the Decca instrument read something else and you would not know.
CB. And that’s what they did?
WB. The RAF refused to have anything to with it. They did Air Commodore Death, he was flying over the North Pole they did use Decca for that occasion. But then of course the war was long over, but they wouldn’t touch it as a eh eh Navigational Instrument. In fact now they don’t even have Navigators so never mind eh. Now they have all these Satellites and Computers and what have you and Laser Beams. They don’t need Navigators, they don’t need Wireless Operators either, there is no need for Morse. I eh as far as I know the Tornado isn’t eh doesn’t carry defensive guns as far as I know.
CB. Can we go back to when you were doing your Flying Training in South Africa.
WB. Yes.
CB. So you done Ground School already in the UK, what did you do in your Training in South Africa?
WB. Flew in Ansons all over the, all over South Africa and,
CB. So what were the exercises that you did ?
WB. Normal Navigation, cross country ones, but we did not have much in the way of Navigation Aids you know. You could, you could get beams from wireless beams but they weren’t particularly accurate and certainly astro was bloody awful. I mean you were very lucky[laugh] to be within twelve miles of where you really were.
CB. Why was that, was it because it took so long or it was difficult to see?
WB. No the sextant was a bottle sextant which moves about of course and you had to go for a whole, yet, have very accurate watch, for a minute do a, and then you averaged it out eh well cause you, you, used to have a song about eh “The bubble goes right and something goes left” I can’t remember.
CB. So in practical terms, in practical terms you were taking three fixes to get each.
WB. No, three position lines.
CB. Three position lines.
WB. To get a fix, but you very often found the position lines didn’t bear any relation to each other. Astro, to be honest I never used Astro except practicing on the ground. I never used it for Flying. No never. We once got em, in a Halifax, we once got struck by lightning and all the magnetical things all went hay wire so we had to come back on Gee [laugh] and eh and the Astro compass yeah. There was a lovely story when, Death, Air Commodore Death was flying round the North Pole. You have a problem with the North Pole because whatever way you go you go South, so they had to use Grid Navigation. But Anyway they landed at some place or other and er and Airman or somebody or maybe an NCO was taking, allocating rooms in the Mess and eh said “AC Death” and he said to the Air Commodore “AC1 or 2?” and the Air Commodore said “Air Commodore actually” and the chap said “that will be the day.”
CB. These anecdotes are very good. So just going back to the Flying Training. How long were you doing that, you were flying daylight but you sometimes flew at night didn’t you, in South Africa?
WB. No in South Africa we never flew at night, I can never remember flying at night but we flew all the time. We did a lot of flying in Anson’s and of course we did a lot of theoretical work. I remember we used to make fun of their accent, the South African accent especially when they were talking about the guns the rear guns. And talking about the Hood, they used to say Hoood. We used to say to him how goo get us the Hoood. [laugh]
CB. But they took it in good stead.
WB. Oh yes, we used to get on very well with the South Africans they were quite pleasant of course they were in the war.
CB. At what point were you awarded your flying brevet?
WB. Oh immediately we finished the course in South Africa. I remember I could you, eh, I had to buy them in the local shop, you had to get your first uniform made there but there were no Navigator half moons, half wings. They were the old “O”
CB. So you were the Observer.
WB. That’s why when we got married I was wearing the “O”
CB. Did you then convert to Navigator or did you have the Observer brevet?
WB. I changed to Navigator because I thought it sounded much better and more prestige than Observer. Totally after that I changed to Navigator brevet. Of course that doesn’t exist now, well it does in theory.
CB. Right, different. So as an Observer you didn’t just do Navigation, what else did you do? Because you done Air Bombing.
WB. No we had a Bomb Aimer who did that, I tell you what we used to introduce ourselves to the soldiers that we were carrying in the Gliders and we all had our names here. It was all very well oh when I went bye or a Pilot went by they always looked with natural horror, his name was Coffin [laugh] yeah.
CB. On the Albemarle, the Armstrong Whitworth Albemarle was a fairly rare aeroplane?
WB. I think five or six hundred were made and about two hundred of them were sent to Russia. Yes I wouldn’t say it was the best aeroplane to fly particularly from the Navigators point of view, you had no room, your table, your navigation table was folded over your lap. And eh when we went to the Halifax they had a proper laid out table and everything was marvellous, ah God.
CB. So flying the Albemarle what were you doing, were you dropping supplies to the Macys or the Resistance in General, how did the Operation go?
WB. We were particularly successful in fact my Pilot, as usual in the Air Force the Pilot was the one who usually got decorated because eventually the effect. The fable was you decorated the whole crew by giving the Pilot the DFC or whatever or DSO. Then we changed you know, when in the Air Force we changed every two years, so after about two years’ time you had no recognition saying you were a Navigator or whatever or Wireless Operator. The only person who had any recognition was the Pilot. Very few Navigators eh most of the Navigators who got mostly decorated were mainly Pathfinders ones. Eh not many, occasionally when something happened perhaps they got the odd DFC. Bye and large the Pilots always got the Gong which we thought was unfair. The other thing we thought was unfair was when the Canadians came over the Canadian Navigators had double wings eh so we thought we ought of have double wings. So would you believe it the Air Ministry decided to put it to the vote of Aircrew em as to whether they wanted the double wings. Of course there were far more Pilots than ever was Navigators. So of course they voted against it, so of course we never did get the double wings. But the Canadians had it and the Americans did too. The Americans had the double wings but eh, but eh.
CB. Can you talk us through an Operation when you are supplying the Macys?
WB. Well eh yeah, you were given a very short interval in which to drop, about five minutes, you weren’t allowed any more than five minutes because that would give away the position of the Macys. So you eh ah the Navigational had to be very accurate. If you didn’t make contact in the field in the time given you had to return to Base em with the material. As I said you had three lights, three torches that’s all they were. Three there and one at the side, with the one at the side like a nail formation and that one there would be flashing a code number which we had been given beforehand. And eh when the ere when the eh, the thing that annoyed me my Pilot got the same decoration as I got last week, this French decoration He got his during the war or just to the end of the war [unreadable] but the thing was he only did what he was told. I mean you gave him the Flight you gave him the Course the Height to fly at, the eh Airspeed. You kept changing the airspeed so that you arrived at the correct time because as I say you only had a short time to deliver the [unreadable]. When we eh when we spotted the lights, the Bomb Aimer would be in position, we would drop height down to about five hundred feet and drop the supplies and back. We normally flew at about six thousand, six or seven thousand but I tell you what as the Navigator I always gave the Pilot a thousand feet to much if you eh if the high ground was seven thousand feet I always gave him eight thousand to fly. I was all eh we lost a couple of aircraft in Norway because of this, well they didn’t put a safety margin on the flight.
CB. How difficulty was to find this Target, on your own that is, it is not with any other aircraft.
WB. Very difficult, we once got chased by a Fighter but he eh um he didn’t shoot. We did a Corkscrew, we were at our proper height then. The beauty, the reason that we dropped down to five hundred feet, the Fighters couldn’t fly underneath you [laugh] they would fly into the ground if they did. But eh but we never did, never had a Fighter contact at the time we were dropping, it was always clear and eh as I say eh you had a fifty, fifty chance of finding them, you only had, you were out of range of Gee. The Pathfinders of course had many other aids other than Gee. I mean they had bending beams and things and cross beams that were active when they were over the target. All the Navigators that I met who were well decorated were Pathfinder ones. Oh apart from the, there was the odd one from the eh, Dambusters.
CB. Oh Yeah. When you eh were looking for the sight of the Dropping Zone did they tend to be in wooded areas or were they in open fields or where were they.
WB. It would depend on what part of France it was, if it was the unoccupied part it would tend to be open ground. If it was the occupied part eh, we would look for some sort of cover if you could get it yeah em, but em.
CB. How many passes could you do?
WB. Oh we were only allowed one.
CB. Only one ?
WB. Yeah, because you didn’t have time to do any others. The Resistance Group would hear the aircraft coming and they would put on their torches, immediately we saw the torches we would drop and eh to supply them. We used to supply them with generally stuff to sabotage and so on to blow up railway lines and bridges. The idea was, they didn’t operate, or not very much until D Day and then they started mining all the things to delay any German reinforcements.
CB. And eh the Bomb Aimer was the person responsible for dropping, so there were static lines attached to the stores. How were they dropped, with a parachute?
WB. No they were more or less dropped as [unreadable] they were wrapped up, they weren’t on parachutes.
CB. They weren’t.
WB. No.
CB. Did you ever drop supplies by parachute?
WB. No but eh the night before D Day, 296 Squadron, I wasn’t on that 296 Squadron dropped parachutes, parachute Troops to seize a bridge, I forget the name of it but it is very famous, the Bridge.
CB. So on D Day what was your task?
WB. Our task was to drop the er Paratroops, the Gliders we dropped those behind the lines.
CB. Was this in daylight or at night?
WB. In daylight, the one that captured the bridge were dropped by parachute, that was night. It was the night before D Day but em. On D Day I remember the whole blinking sea seemed to be full of ships. I just couldn’t believe it and we flew over them. We were then stationed at Brize Norton which is now quite a famous airfield.
CB. When you were towing gliders, what height are you flying?
WB. Eh, I can’t remember exactly but I think about two to three thousand.
CB. What speed were you able to make?
WB. [laugh] Anson speed about a hundred em hundred and twenty perhaps, if you were lucky, sometimes slower than that.
CB. Because the speed is governed by what the Glider can do.
WB. Yes, well you just tow the glider along and the glider has control whither he has the release, not the Tug as we were called, we didn’t. We usually spoke to them before they were released to say good luck and what have you.
CB. So as well as the rope, it was a rope that tied you to the glider.
WB. I mean we dropped that, we were usually given a dropping zone for that.
CB. Back in Britain?
WB. No, by the Target, yes because we didn’t want to fly with a rope, [laugh] spare rope behind us. Yeah we, I think on D Day 296 Squadron we lost one aircraft.
CB. So how many other glider trips did you take for the Invasion?
WB. The Invasion, the Invasion only the one they did we, er there were other Squadrons, there was 297 doing the same sort of thing, they were stationed at Harwell. We had Halifax’s, 38 Group were equipped with the first Halifax’s, we didn’t have them but they were in the group they were used. Funnily enough eh they towed a different glider. We towed a Horsa which carried troops. They towed a thing called a, “what was it called?” Hamilcar, yes that’s it.
CB. That had guns in it?
WB. That carried a small tank and of course the small tank was no match for the German Armoured Division, no. That that was Montgomery’s idea apparently [unreadable] Eisenhower and it was a disaster. Only because they didn’t know, they would never have sent them had they knew there was a German Armoured Division there.
CB. Are we talking about Arnhem now or are we talking about Normandy landings, you were just taking troops?
WB. Normandy landings we just flew over the top we got em the. I think some parachutists were dropped, their purpose was to try to immobilise the guns. I think that is what the Americans unfortunately dropped their parachutists in the wrong place or too far away and they suffered terrible casualties, compared with the British and Canadians. But it is so old now seventy five years or whatever.
CB. Long time.
WB. It is a long time, in fact I’m surprised, I suppose it’s the role played that I remember so much. I wouldn’t have thought at ninety six to remember as much as I do remember, but I don’t remember all of it.
CB. So when you were towing the glider, were you the lead Navigator yourself?
WB. No each aircraft had its own Navigator. The Americans had a lead Navigator scheme but I think they gave that up after a while, because if you got the Leader shot down you were in trouble to a certain extent.
CB. You were the Squadron Navigation Officer weren’t you?
WB. Yes I was Squadron Navigation Officer then Station Navigation Officer then HQ Malaya Navigation.
CB. Over a period of years?
WB. Oh I loved Singapore was lovely, that was a posting that.
CB. But in that case you gave up towing gliders at the end of the war.
WB. Oh yes, gliders were never used again. They were very expensive the er em. The Germans invaded Crete with parachutists and they made the mistake of parachuting the ammunition separately [laugh] and eh the British Tommies had a Hell of a time for a while until the Germans were able to reinforce and eh eh, funny.
CB. OK we will stop there for a bit.
CB. So Bill what was the most memorable thing that you did, do you think?
WB. The most memorable thing was the Ground Crew of 296 decided to hold a raffle or call it what you like, that sort of thing. They collected money from all of the Ground Crew and decided they would award the money to the first aircraft to make touch down. We were first and eh our Ground Crew goes cheering to the roof you know because they would collect the money. Some Ground Crew serviced more aircraft, I don’t know what arrangements they had for that. We taxied back to the dispersal with cheers and whoops and what have you. We were then at Brize Norton.
When we went to. I didn’t mention, when we went to Arnhem we flew to Manston and, and in order to get closer to the Target because Albemarle’s hadn’t the range of the Halifax. So we flew down there, but the thing that I remember was that there were Americans at Manston and eh our first Meteors had appeared and they couldn’t understand how these aircraft were flying without propellers [laugh].
CB. Meteor Jets yes.
WB. Yes
CB. What was the level of loss on the Squadron, how many aircraft were lost?
WB. I don’t know off hand.
CB. Was it a regular occurrence?
WB. No not, the sort of Operation we were doing supplying the Resistance Group, it didn’t pay the German Air Force to go chasing after one er aircraft, so by in large we were never attacked. Although there is a, I’ve got a picture in the album. Incidentally, I don’t know if you want to look at the Album when I got this French Decoration, three weeks later we were there.
CB. We will look at that in just a moment thank you.
WB. Yes that was the only thing, it’s funny how you remember small things connected to big things. You get some small incidents that occur and a great big thing like D Day you remember the Ground Crew gathering on your return to Base.
CB. How was the relationship between the Aircrew and the Ground Crew.
WB. Oh very good, very, very good yeah we knew them all by name, they were always there with a smile.
CB. We are going to stop there because time has run out so thank you very much indeed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with William Barfoot
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending OH summary
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Barfoot was born in Newcastle upon Tyne. On joining the Air Force, he trained as a wireless operator but remustered as aircrew. He trained as a navigator in South Africa. He flew operations with 296 Squadron supplying the French and Norwegian Resistance, towing troop gliders to Normandy, Arnham and the Rhine.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-08
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:10:19 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABarfootWE151208
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Greece
Netherlands
Norway
South Africa
England--Essex
England--Oxfordshire
England--Kent
South Africa--Makhanda
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
296 Squadron
aircrew
Albemarle
Anson
Dominie
Gee
Halifax
Hamilcar
Horsa
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Castle Bromwich
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Earls Colne
RAF Hullavington
RAF Manston
RAF Shawbury
RAF Yatesbury
Resistance
Stirling
Tiger Moth
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/277/7906/PIronsH1501.2.jpg
62e8999adc6227a8e1dcf9d08e401fbc
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/277/7906/AIronsH150723.1.mp3
113b2cff64ef934152b89828f1ea404f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Irons, Harry
Harry Irons
H Irons
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Harry Irons (1924 - 2018). He was an apprentice tailor in London, but lied about his age and joined the RAF aged 16. He flew operations as a rear gunner with 158, 462 and 9 Squadrons.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-23
2016-07-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Irons, H
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Okay so, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moodie and the interviewee is Harry Irons. The interview’s taking place at a hotel near Kings Lynn and we’re here for the 9 Squadron Association hundred year dinner.
HI: Yeah that’s right, yeah.
AM: And it’s the 23rd of July 2015. So, off you go Harry. Tell us –
HI: Er, actually I won a scholarship to go to a grammar school, but my father insisted that I left school at fourteen so I could go to work and earn a wage. So, being in the east end the only jobs you could get was either tailoring or cabinet making. There was a whole area that’s – it was a big Jewish area and the, most of the people were either tailors or cabinet makers, and they were good, very good, brilliant craftsmen. So I took a job on as a trainee tailor and I was doing that for two years until I was sixteen, nearly sixteen, and we lived in an area of London called Stamford Hill and one evening we, me and a few other chaps were on the hill, and we see the huge blitz on London, and we actually see the whole of the City of London literally ablaze. Enormous, as far as your eye could see was buildings all, all ablaze, that was the City of London. Actually, they weren’t after the City of London, what they was after was the Docks, and they just, their bombing, what we used to call creeping, crept back from the Docks into the City of London and once it hit the City of London course everything went up in flames so, two or three friends said ‘we’ll, we’re gonna join up.’ I was sixteen at the time, so we went up the recruiting office in Kings Cross, London, and I told ‘em I was seventeen and a quarter, how they believed me I don’t know but they said ‘alright you’re in,’ and that was at the end of 1941, and I was called up in January 1941 [unclear]. The blaze was – the bombing was in 1940 and we joined, we joined up at the end of 1940, and 1941 they called me up and I went to a place near where it was called Bridgnorth then six weeks square bashing [?] there and they said ‘you’ll have to wait to sele’ – they asked me what I wanted to be in the air force, I said ‘I wanna fly,’ they said ‘alright, we’ll put you down for either a pilot, navigator or an air gunner and we’ll sort that out later on.’ Anyway, I went to Bridgnorth, done my six weeks training, and they sent me to a RAF station, Wisbech in Cambridge and I had to do menial jobs there, in the cook house, in the stores, waiting for, to go on a course. In the mean while they told me I was gonna become a wireless operator air gunner, and I’ve got to wait for a course to come up, a vacancy for the course to come up, so I stayed at Wisbech ‘til August ’41, and then they posted me to Blackpool on a wireless course and everybody in the RAF went to Blackpool to do their wireless course, and you had to stay in a, all the border houses were commandeered, and all the aircrew used to live in these border houses and the thing was when you’re at Blackpool you got up to twelve words a minute which we all did, and then from there you’re posted to another sta, er, air force station to continue your study ‘til you become up to eighteen words a minute –
AM: When you say eighteen words a minute, doing what?
HI: Morse code.
AM: Morse code right, okay.
HI: Yeah, dit dah dit dah dit dah dit. Anyway, we was all queuing up to wait for postings and the sergeant came out just like that he said ‘you lot, over that side. You lot, that side,’ and fortunately or unfortunately I was in that lot on that side and we become airgunners. Not wireless operators, airgunners. Just airgunners. And the reason for that, I didn’t know at the time, was the heavy bombers, the Lancasters, were going on production, and there was, they were short of airgunners, because they had to carry another air gunner so they said ‘you lot over there, you become airgunners,’ and I went back to Wisbech – I was a bit cheesed off about it all anyway, couldn’t do much about it, and I waited another couple of months and then they sent me on a gunnery course, a place called Manby [emphasis] in Lincoln, it’s a big air force gunnery school there, and we done six weeks training there as gunners, gunnery, and I got the huge total flying hours of nineteen hours, that’s all I got, and they said – and from there you’re supposed to do a four month, five month operational training course, that’s getting accustomed to actually doing bombing raids on enemy territory. But then whatever happened they said to me ‘you’re being posted straight on a squadron’ and I tell you what, I was a greener than this.
AM: [Laughs] we’re sat on a green settee, for the record.
HI: Yeah, yeah. It was as green, I was as green as anything then. ‘Cause I got nineteen hours and I didn’t know what to expect. Anyway, I was posted to Waddington [emphasis] to Number 9 Squadron. And when I arrived there, as it was luck [exhale of breath] was in my favour because a flight lieutenant named Stubbs came up to me and said ‘you’re gonna fly with me as a mid-upper’ and I said ‘fair enough.’ They’d already, he was already on his second tour, he’d already done thirteen trips on Wellingtons [emphasis].
AM: So you didn’t do the usual crewing up thing?
HI: Never done anything like that, no.
AM: You just –
HI: No, no they just sent about ten of us to 9 Squadron, ‘cause I was just converting from Wellingtons onto Lancasters, and consequently they was one gunner short because the Lancaster carried a mid-upper. So he said to me, anyhow I didn’t know what it was all about actually, he said to me ‘the rear gunner I’ve got at the moment is a big Australian,’ he was about six foot three [unclear] ‘and he’s too tall for the turret’ he said ‘what we’re gonna do is you’re gonna do your first trip in the mid-upper and after that you’ll go in the rear turret, and the Australian will go’ –‘cause in the mid-upper you can pull your legs down, straighten you know, you’ve got plenty of room, so what we done then, we done – as time’s gone on, this was 1942, round about June 1942 and we started getting to used, well the crew getting used to flying a Wellington twin engine bomber onto a four engine bomber. And that, you use what they call conversion, and that’s pretty difficult ‘cause you learn how to fly an entirely different aircraft, land it, you got to find out all the different things, the different systems and the turrets, anyway we done about six weeks training, well not, training it was, well converting from the one engine to the Lancaster, and then September ’42 we was in a crew, we had a big crew and we used to lay and loll about smoking, swearing everything else [laughs] anyway, they said ‘ops tonight.’ So, before you went on operations you done what they call a night flying test [emphasis], you took the aircraft up, you tested the bomb site, you tested the, the bomb bays open and closing, you tested the turrets and you give a, you went outta sea and give the guns a little squirt, see everything was alright, the compass [emphasis], check the compass and the, the under carriage we’d dropped up and down a couple of time to make sure it was alright, and we landed, and as we landed, the bomb aimer had already done thirteen trips on Wellingtons, and this is vivid, and as we’d come out of the steps of the Lancaster, the bomb aimer’s behind me, and coming along the road was tractor carrying a four thousand pound bomb, and fourteen hundred incendiaries, and the bomb aimer said to me ‘oh, we’re going to Happy Valley tonight.’ He said ‘by that bomb load, we’re definitely going to Happy Valley,’ and I thought ‘well that don’t sound too bad, Happy Valley,’ I thought ‘well Happy Valley, that can’t be too bad,’ I didn’t know that that was a nickname for the Ruhr Valley. The whole of the Ruhr Valley was called Happy Valley, and I didn’t realise at the time but the Happy Valley, the Ruhr Valley, as you went in you got a brilliant [emphasis] reception and a better, a, what you say, a bye-bye on the way out, and I tell you what, right I’ll go on, anyway we – it was always ritual, always [emphasis] for bomber crews to have bacon and eggs before they went on ops, always. Didn’t matter where you were, all the time I was in the air force, I done sixty bombing trips, and every time we went on a bombing trip we got bacon and eggs [emphasis] and if we come back we got bacon and eggs. And that was a luxury in those, in wartime, and then of course the joke was, always the joke ‘if you don’t come back, can I have your bacon and eggs?’ you know. Anyway, we went to the, we got – there was a bit of a rigmarole getting ready, you had to, you had to have your bacon and eggs and you go down to – most, most aircrew wrote a last letter, most of ‘em. I think the majority of aircrew wrote a last letter home to their wives, and they used to put them on the bed, and I’m afraid to say, I seen many, many, many letters being collected by the padre, many, that’s why I never wrote one myself. Anyway, we had our food, our bacon and eggs, we were all laughing and joking, you know we were young blokes, and we went to the crew, to the briefing room and we all sat down to see who would come in, and the map [emphasis] had a huge sheet over it, and the CO always, always done it, come in, whipped the sheet off and there was the target. So the bomb aimer said to me ‘I told you.’ It was Dusseldorf, he said ‘there you are,’ he said ‘I knew we were going there’ he said, ‘we’re going to Happy Valley,’ and I still didn’t twig on, ‘oh well, that don’t sound too bad,’ thinking of German girls tryna start [?] kisses you know what I mean. Anyway, we went down to the crew room and the atmosphere changed completely [emphasis]. We went in the crew room and the whole squadron was in the crew room ‘cause we had cabinets for all our flying gear and used to get dressed in there, and as I walked in, all the crews were there, it was dead silence, and everybody was looking at each other, there was no jokes, no laughing, nothing. And there was simply a – the atmosphere was incredible [emphasis] to what it was in the mess having our egg and bacon. Anyway, we got dressed and it was – airgunners dressing was long underpants, pure silk, and a vest that was silk and then your shirt and then your pullover, and then a, over the shirt you put a, I think it was, no, before you put the shirt on, as we put the shirt on we put an electrical heated suit with gloves and electrical heated gloves and body and feet, which was really, really important. And over that we put our uniform ‘cause you had to wear a uniform, if you never wore a uniform, I never realised but at night if you’ve was parachuted out in civilian clothes you was likely to get executed, which many, quite a few boys did get executed, especially by the civilians. And over that we used to put a huge [emphasis] fur jacket and fur trousers, fur lined boots, and there we were –
AM: Fur trousers?
HI: Fur trousers, yeah [murmur from AM]. You know, thick, made of the same material as your jacket. Irvin jacket, you had Irvin trousers, thick Irvin trousers and they used to tuck them inside your boot, zip your boots up and there, you could hardly move by then, but – and I’ll tell you what, on a warm day you was walking out you was absolutely sweating [emphasis, laughs]. Anyway, we went out to the aircraft and everybody smoked, everybody smoked [emphasis] except the skipper, the skipper didn’t smoke, he never drunk, never went out with women, he was absolutely – they said in the officers mess that they couldn’t understand the man, he wouldn’t, he never swore, he never smoked. Anyway, he – a good pilot mind you. Anyway, we got in the aircraft and I was in the mid-upper, first time. And in the mid-upper turret of the Lancaster, I’ve got a picture of it, you had a fantastic [emphasis] view –
AM: Hmm, all round.
HI: All three hundred and eighty degree. You could see everything [emphasis]and I got in the mid-upper, and I never got, I was still raw, we done, only done six weeks training, and I plugged in the electricity for the heater ‘cause if we, even in the mid-upper the temperature was about forty-five, fifty below zero. Worse still in the turret, rear turret. Anyway, we got ready and then the crew room, nobody was talking, it was like that, nobody spoke, and off we went. We took off at Waddington, and the thing was at Waddington they had no runways at that time. There were two squadrons of Lancasters there and no runway. All we had was grass, and in the winter it was very, very difficult with full bomb loads to takeoff. Before that, when we arrived at Waddington there was a squadron there, 44 Squadron, a Rhodesian squadron, and apparently they was the first squadron in the RAF to be equipped with the Lancaster, in March, April, round about April. And what they’d done, they’d decided to do a daylight raid, a low level daylight raid on a town called Augsburg in Germany. They sent six Lancasters flying at zero feet right across France, right into Germany –
AM: At zero [emphasis] feet?
HI: Zero feet, I mean zero – well when I say zero feet, about half of these buildings.
AM: Right okay.
HI: Can you imagine six Lancasters –
AM: No [laughs] –
HI: At that height over, just ducking over the trees, going as low as low as they could, else they would have invade [?] the radar.
AM: Right.
HI: Anyway, what happened – unfortunately there was squadron of Messerschmitts flying, I don’t know if it was practicing or flying, and of course they see these six Lancasters, and they immediately they shot down five [noise of shock from AM]. So outta the six they sent, one come back badly, badly damaged, and his name was Nevillson [name unclear] and he got the VC. The other five that was shot down got nothing [emphasis] so, he was fortunate, he was leading the squadron from the front and they gradually cut the other five down and he managed to avoid and managed to get back badly damaged. So, I’m just telling you that because it deal with another operation I went on. Anyway, we all got ready to takeoff, and everything was quiet in the – nobody spoke, when we was on ops, very rarely we spoke. The only time we spoke is when we was being attacked, when the navigator was giving instructions to the pilot, or the bomb aimer or me or the mid-upper or the rear gunner could see something downstairs they could identify and then inform the navigator what we see, and that helped him to crack the course. ‘Cause in those days, 1942, we had no radar. We had what they called Gee-box up to the coast and once we hit the coast the Germans blocked it, so it was from then onwards it was the navigator used to have to go from one spot to another spot, estimate the time of arrival at the other spot before he made a correction to the course, and of course things improved later on in ’43, and the gunners helped a lot because they could, especially the rear gunner could see, or the mid-upper could see different –
AM: Rivers, train lines and stuff like that.
HI: -- objects, yeah. And sometimes that wasn’t possible, there’d be ten-Thames [?] cloud. And then navigation become very, very difficult. And don’t forget we didn’t have no radar help whatsoever, but we managed and we flew over, as we took off we flew over the Dutch coast and the bomb aimer, he used to lay pronged in the nose [very unsure about what was said here], he said ‘skipper, enemy air coast [?] ahead, flak, flak.’ Always gunfire was called flak [emphasis]. So I looked down and I see all these beautiful, indescribable [?] lights, every colour, reds, blues, greens, there all tracers [?] from what they call night flak. They went up to about eight or nine thousand feet and then it dropped down again. And that’s when flak –
AM: And how high were you at that point?
HI: We was about twelve thousand feet. So when I looked down from mid-upper and I see that flak below us and I thought to myself ‘if that’s flak, we’ve got nothing at all to worry about.’ So we flew over Holland, don’t forget this was the early phase of bombing. Before that the bombing was nothing ‘cause they had obsolete bombing, bombing aircraft and no idea whether they reached the target. It was only in beginning, half way through 1942 they was giving the apparatus so they didn’t really find the target. Anyway, you crossed the Dutch coast and I’m in the mid-upper, spinning it round, and for about, I should imagine it was about hour, hour and a quarter, then the bomb aimer said ‘target ahead skipper.’ So then I thought to myself ‘well I’ll have a look to see what this target is all about,’ and I swung the turret around and I had really [emphasis], really the shock of my life. In front of us, with no exaggeration, was one solid massive explosion of shells. Absolute whole area was full up of high explosive shell fire, and we gotta fly through that. And searchlights were creeping about, and they had one searchlight which was radar operated and it was a different colour, it was blue, very light blue. And that was a searchlight, never missed. It went up bang, like that, straight onto an aircraft. It was radar controlled [coughs] excuse me [pause to drink] so when I see this huge massive explosion ‘cause I had a beautiful view, so I thought to myself ‘cor blimey, surely we haven’t gotta go through all this.’ And I could hear it, and the plane was bumping up and down from the force of the explosions and the skipper said to me ‘mid-upper, keep an eye above you, because bombers above you will drop their bombs on you’ which happened many times. So I said ‘okay skipper,’ and – we called the pilot skipper, always called him a skipper. Doesn’t matter what rank he was, always a skipper. Anyway, we, I started looking up and there right above us was a Lanc, bomb bay open, ‘cause you know the bomb bays were enormous, I says ‘there’s a bomber above us skipper with his bomb bay open, dive port.’ We dived port, good job we did because he was ready to drop his load, so we slammed our bomb bay shut, because we was on a run as well and, and the bomb aimer said ‘we’ll have to make a correction on our way into the target.’ You must realise that all around us these huge [emphasis] explosions of shells, I’m telling you not few, hundreds [emphasis] of ‘em exploding into the sky. Anyway, as we were flying in, the skipper said ‘skipper, I’ve lost the target point,’ he said ‘we’ll have to round again.’ And I just told you, the skipper never swore. I’ll tell you what [laughs] he said to the bomb aimer ‘you are a silly chap’ [laughs]. There was a few more words. So we slammed the bomb bay shut, went right through that target, went all through that explosions and the plane was rocking about, could hear shrapnel hitting the bloody machine, in our machine, and we went round and we do a dogleg. We approached the target like that, and then we go like that, like that, in again. But you had to be very, very careful ‘cause when you left the target and you was gonna come in again, you was coming across the last of the bombers that was going in. And it was very, very, very dangerous. Anyway, when we went round, and by that time the German radar was on us and it was giving us a real, real shellacking [?] I’ll tell you. Anyway, we made our run round, opened the bomb bay, dropped our bombs, slammed the door, slammed the door shut and what we usually do then, you couldn’t – slammed the doors shut but you couldn’t get away, you had to stay straight and level for another forty seconds because the camera was turning around and at the same time you was dropping what they called a photo-flash [?]. That was in the fuselage. And as the photo-flash dropped down, the cameras turning over, and they took a picture, an actual picture, of you bombing the target, which was very, very important because if you didn’t bring back a picture the intelligence officers said to you ‘well it’s your word against mine that you went there,’ even if the aircraft was full of bloody holes, they still say ‘we don’t believe you,’ well, ‘not saying we don’t believe you but you’ve got no proof that you went to the target so it don’t count, so you can go all that way there and back for nothing,’ which happened several times. Anyway, we slammed the bomb bay down, we made a dived [emphasis] to the port, turned round and come back and that’s when your trouble started, the fighters. But that time they wasn’t so dangerous as what they were to be. They, we used to see the fighters flying about and straight away, I don’t know if it was instinct or not, when I see a fighter, I wouldn’t fire on him unless he was interfering with us, I let him go, because generally you’d find on a fighter he had huge [emphasis] canons and you had no chance, I tell you, you had no chance whatsoever.
AM: So you’re just causing trouble for yourself really –
HI: Yeah because they could stand off from two, three hundred yards and you couldn’t do nothing about it, ‘cause your 303 went about a hundred yards and started dropping what they called a gravity drop. They had canons and he could rake you [?] which happened a couple of times. Anyway, we slammed the bomb bay shut, and we started coming back, and the bomb aimer said to the skipper and the navigator, ‘skipper, we can’t breathe. We’ve got no oxygen.’ And what had happened, the shrapnel had cut through the oxygen lines, so the skipper said ‘alright, so what we have to do is dive down below ten thousand feet,’ which we did do, and coming home in the mid-upper I thought to myself, ‘if this is bloody Happy Valley, I hope we don’t go anywhere that’s miserable’[laughs]. And I’ll tell you what, it’s a terrible, terrible place. Anyway we got down to – we crossed the Dutch coast at about four thousand feet, and these beautiful lights we see were flashing past us like that, all over, and lucky enough we managed to get through a few bangs and we were damaged but not that bad. And we dropped down about two thousand feet and we headed home, and I thought to myself ‘dear oh dear, I got thirty of these, thirty trips to do like that before we get a rest.’ And we landed, and I was exhausted. Even at that age, at seventeen, I was exhausted. And we went into the briefing room and I stood there and we was asked a load of questions, and they said to me, it was only my first trip, they said to me ‘what do you think?’ And I said ‘I see four or five bombers exploding in the sky,’ I said ‘apart from that everything was alright.’ He said ‘you never seen no bombers’ – this was the officer, the briefing officer telling me that, he wasn’t even a flyer. He’s saying ‘you didn’t see no bombers blowing up, that was scarecrows.’ What the Germans were firing up shells to mimic a bomber exploding, and they kept this up right the way through the war.
AM: So it was true, you hadn’t, you’d seen the scarecrows, not a bomber blowing up.
HI: No, no they were actually aircraft blowing up in the sky. They did admit after the war there was no such thing as a scarecrow.
AM: Ah right.
HI: They admitted it, the Air Ministry, but they kept it a –
AM: So why did they say that?
HI: Well they – one of the reasons was they didn’t want us to duck and dive about. They wanted us to fly straight and level, ‘cause it was dangerous anyway, ducking and diving. But every time we went back we say we seen three or four, sometimes more than that, explosions, literally exploding in the sky. They said ‘no, that’s German scarecrows to demoralise you.’ Anyway, we got back and in the briefing room he said, he told me about the scarecrows so I thought ‘oh well, that’s it.’ Anyway, I didn’t know how exhausted I was, it was only a four and three-quarter hour trip. I went to bed and I felt absolutely exhausted. And I think the mental strain of the first trip. Anyway, we went back to the mess, we went to bed, and I think next morning we had a day off. The following day I think we went to Bremen, and the reason why went to Bremen, or Bremen [different pronunciation, shorter vowel sound] as they called it, they was building the submarines, the U-Boats there.
AM: Right.
HI: And we went across the Baltic that time. We didn’t see no flak until we hit Bremen, and the flak was unbelievable. It was worse than Dusseldorf.
AM: Were you in the rear gunner at this –
HI: I was in the rear turret, yeah.
AM: So you’d moved to the rear turret by this time?
HI: Yeah. And different position and the different visibility of the – when you’re in the rear turret you can see that way, see the bits you couldn’t see really above you or at the side of you –
AM: Or behind you.
HI: And at that time, the Germans were only attacking from dead astern, port over or starboard over . That was the method of attacking at that time [emphasis], things were getting much, much worse, but they had a little bit of a chance because if they come in close you had four guns here and you could – you had a bit of a chance, not a lot, but you had a bit of a chance. Anyway, I think it was after that trip, couple of trips, I complained to the engineering officer that the rear turret, that the oil for the Merlin engines was coating the Perspex in the rear turret, which obviously, the exhaust was coming out. So we was sitting in the crew room, the officer come in, he said ‘we solved the problem of the oil on the turrets,’ and I thought ‘well that’s good’ ‘cause after about two hours this oil used to go onto the Perspex, it was starting to be difficult to see outta it, and when we went out there [chuckles] what they had done, they had taken the whole Perspex out [chuckles]. So there we were in a rear turret with no bloody Perspex, and I tell you what, it was cold [emphasis].
AM: How did that – what so nothing between you –
HI: No, just – they took the whole of the front of the Perspex out. We used to look through, they took out because the oil.
AM: So it was just you [emphasis] and sky –
HI: Yeah, yeah.
AM: Nothing between you?
HI: No, no. Well the Perspex only stopped the slipstream but they took the Perspex out. Yeah, on all the Lancs, but they solved the problem [laughs]. Anyway, we –
AM: But the oil would just hit you in the face instead.
HI: Yeah, but it was, it wasn’t so bad because you could just wipe it with your glove with it [AM laughs]. But, we got rid of the – it wasn’t such a huge amount but it was enough oil to stop, to obscure your sight a bit, you know. And you had to be really, really on your toes all that time you was in that turret. It was bitterly cold in there, forty-five, fifty below zero, was nothing.
AM: Did you ever have an occasion when your suit didn’t work, or?
HI: Yes sometimes it, it didn’t work a couple of times. I burnt me foot ‘cause it was a new, new idea you know, they’d, after the war they made electric blankets [AM laughs] that was only through the electrical heated suits and it’s the short shirts – it’s like everything in the war, everything was crash, bang, wallop, get ready , but every gunner was issued with an electrical heated suit, and they were good when they worked. So I’d done my first op, and I thought I was proud of myself, but I had other twenty-nine to do. I mean, twenty-nine successful [emphasis] ones, so you can, you can go all the way there, and you get, you get engine trouble and you gotta come back, that don’t count. Even in respect of what you’ve gone through, it didn’t count.
AM: You had to drop your bombs on the target for it to count.
HI: Yeah, the gunner target, yeah. You see, what actually happened, I think at the beginning of the war, the few of them used to go to North Sea, drop their bombs and come back and say yeah they’ve, they’ve, and they – ‘cause they realised Germany wasn’t being bombed really, it was a, the most that we got to was five miles from the towns [?] so what they decide to put the camera in, and the photo-flash. And that stopped it all, ‘cause you had to bring back a picture. The first thing they asked for when you walked in, ‘have you got your picture?’ It was the first thing – [unclear] you’d land on the aircraft, there was a [unclear] photography unit come out and take the film out, and there’d be developed or they used to take it back to the crew, the, where we was being briefed, and they could see if we bombed the target or not. Anyway, so we went to Bremen, we gained a good shellacking [?] and we done a bit of damage there, and we come back, and I was blowing my chest out, I’d done two trips [laughs]. The following, following day, er day after that, we went to Wilhelmshaven, and that was worse. That’s where I was really in full, full strength of building submarines there, and we did – it was devastating the bombing we done there, it was very successful, they held up the submarine building for a long while, and then I’d done, I’d done three trips, and I was, you know, thinking to myself, well –
AM: Were you scared?
HI: Frightened outta my bloody life. The first one, I told you, that first one, Dusseldorf, I could not believe, I could not [emphasis] but everyone was the same –
AM: Did you talk about it?
HI: No, no we never talked about it, no. I’ll tell you one thing, we used to get crews coming straight from OTU into the squadron, ‘cause their losses were horrendous you know, we was losing so many aircraft, and they’d say ‘what’s the ops like?’ and we’d always used to say ‘you find out, you find out yourself.’ We never said ‘oh it’s terrible over there’ or nothing, never. And I don’t know if that helped them or not, but a lot of the crews only done one trip before they got shot down, hell of a lot of ‘em. Just one – in fact, what they used to do when a crew come from OTU, they used to let the pilot fly with an experienced crew on his first trip, so he’d understand what an actual raid was. Very often he never come back off his first trip, it happened time and time again. The crew used to be walking about the station with no, waiting for a new pilot. Yeah, happened many times. Anyway, after Wilhelmshaven we went back to Happy Valley again, and this time, I tell you what, I thought Dusseldorf was bad, we went to Essen [emphasis] and Essen was something out of this [noise of disbelief] something outta, I tell you what, it was absolutely ferocious. The flak was enormous, everywhere you look there was shells bursting, aircraft blowing up in the sky, aircraft going down in flames, and I had something with me because we just went through – we always got hit, always got hit with flak, big holes in the aircraft, but when we got back they used to bang ‘em and tap ‘em back and –
AM: Bodge [?] ‘em up.
HI: Yeah, that’s it [chuckles]. Anyway, we went to Essen, then we went to Munich, and I’ll tell you how my luck is, what happened, losses at Waddington on 9 Squadron, even those few weeks I was there, was horrendous. So they sent two scientists down from Cambridge with a new device to put into the rear turret so that when a fighter was five or six hundred yards away, which we couldn’t see, they could see us on their radar, this instrument was radar. It could pick up the fighter and warn us with a red light that there was a fighter in the close vicinity. Unfortunately the first time the squadron was equipped with them, we lost two aircraft and the Germans must have sorted the, must have examined the wreckage and seen this device in the rear turret and copied [unclear] a wavelength or whatever it was, anyway we went to Munich and that was a long trip, that was about eight and a half hours and we went over, and how the navigator found Munich I’ll never know ‘cause we went over in ten-tenths cloud, that means to say underneath you was solid cloud, but he found Munich as – before we reached Munich the cloud broke and there was Munich and we did, we did give it real good hiding.
AM: Is this day time or night?
HI: It’s night time –
AM: It’s night time isn’t it?
HI: Never, never done daylight.
AM: But you could still see it, so how come you could see it at night time?
HI: We could see it yeah because the – a couple of people had been bombing it and the searchlights –
AM: Right.
HI: And you could see the town anyway. You – but that’s why bombing – they, they said ‘well why did you bomb areas’ – the only way you can do night bombing was to, at that time was area bombing and in that area you probably got a load of factories you could destroy, but you couldn’t pick out – it was very, very difficult to pick out an individual target so you had to bomb an area, they used to pick an area out. This was before pathfinding [murmured agreement from AM] so we used to drop flares ourselves, we dropped a few flares as we was going in, or people before us would drop a few flares, and you’d sit and the bomb aimer would see the target.
AM: Who dropped the flares, the bomb aimer?
HI: The bomb aimer, yeah. Someone on the squadron [very unclear what was said here] would drop a few flares and then down they went, but that was the beginning, when we really first started bombing Germany, before that it was a joke. Anyway, we bombed Munich and we made a good frame [?] on it actually, and coming back the skipper said ‘I think we’ll fly through cloud’ because the fighter activity, we could see the fighter flares, and so he said ‘if we go through cloud we won’t meet any fighters,’ which we did do, so we was flying for about an hour in the cloud and all of a sudden the cloud broke clear, and believe it or not, right by my rear turret, as I looked outta my rear turret was a Ju-88. I tell you what he was no more than thirty yards [emphasis] behind us. And he opened fire with his cannons and the tracer went just above the aircraft, just missed us. The reason was that he was so close and we was up and down like that and I suppose as we went down he fired and he missed us. Anyway, we opened fire, me in the rear turret and the mid-upper ‘cause he was right close to us, and down he went, he spun over and down he went.
AM: So you got him?
HI: Yeah we got him, yeah.
AM: Which one of you got him, do you know?
HI: We don’t know, I think –
AM: Both of you?
HI: We both opened fire on him, and he was more surprised than what we were, he never expected it, and down he went. Lucky enough because usually once the night fighter got on your tail, it was very, very difficult. Anyway we, when we got back we told the intelligence officer that this night fighter had followed us through ten-tenths cloud for an hour ‘till the cloud broke. So they put two and two together and realised the apparatus they’d put in the turret was sending out a ray for the Germans to pick up and that’s what he was following us on. So what – immediately they took the radar thing out of the turret and I don’t know if it made any difference or not. After that we were talking and laughing about it and they said ‘you gonna do some low level formation flying in daylight,’ so we thought ‘well surely we’re not gonna have another daylight raid after the huge loss to 44 Squadron,’ and I mean we never even considered [emphasis] that they would do anymore daylight raids. So anyway, we done this practice formation, well it’s not formation flying – at that time there was over ninety Lancs in 5 Group, and there was ninety of us flying over Lincoln, around this area, right on the ground, well I don’t mean on the ground, as high as these buildings. Everyone was moaning down below because can you imagine ninety Lancasters flying about thirty or forty feet and they said ‘you’re gonna have to cut the squadron of Spitfires doing damning runs [?] on you.’ So I’m sitting in my turret, and the Spitfires come straight for me, and he was so close our slipstream hit his, hit his wings, and he turned like that, and being so low, he couldn’t, he couldn’t get outta the dive and he went straight in the deck. And I was ‘that don’t sound too bad, that’s gonna happen.’ Anyway –
AM: What happened to him? Crashed? Killed?
HI: Crashed, just crashed yeah. And when I looked along the road there was about three or four Spits on the deck, burning [emphasis] doing the same thing, come straight in –
AM: So they were killed?
HI: And the slipstream, they had no chance of correcting, correcting, ‘cause it’s too low on the ground. Anyway, on the Saturday they said ‘there’s gonna – report to your flights ‘cause there’s gonna be a daylight raid.’ So we went out to do the what they call a night flighting test, and when we landed there was the trailer, but all it had on it was six [emphasis] one thousand pounders. So we knew it was gonna be a long, long journey. We were – a bomb load like that was only a third of the weight of what we’d usually take to the Ruhr, so we were, obviously it was gonna be a long journey. We went to the briefing –
AM: Can I just ask, so why obviously, ‘cause that would conserve the fuel because you had a lighter load?
HI: Yeah we had to take more fuel and less bombs, so –
AM: Yep, okay.
HI: So actually we knew the distance when we see a big petrol load [emphasis] going in we knew we were on for a – we see a small bomb load we knew, the petrol, it was being loaded up for all the tanks and we knew we was on for a long trip. Anyway, we went and had our – even at that time, we’d already had breakfast, but they sent us out and said ‘we’re gonna have bleeding bacon and eggs’ [laughs]. That was always done, it don’t matter what time of the day it was bacon –
AM: Well what would happen if you didn’t like bacon?
HI: Well –
AM: What did they get, sausage?
HI: There were a few Jewish people who, they had to eat the bleeding bacon [laughs].
AM: Did they, they ate it?
HI: Yeah, well, by then I’d done five or six trips, and I thought ‘so I better eat the food, you never know what’s gonna happen.’ Anyway, we went to the briefing at about ten o’clock, Saturday morning, it was, in October, round about, I forget the date, about the tenth of October, and we went to the briefing, and the officer come in, pulled the blind down, and there it was. Place called Le Creusot. It was right on the other side of France, nearly on the Swiss border. It was a nearly ten and a half hour trip and we were looking at each other, and they said ‘you’re to fly as low as possible, even lower than that if you can,’ and they said ‘there’ll be two hundred Spitfires,’ or hundred, two or three hundred Spitfires ‘escorting you to the coast,’ but the trouble was the Spitfires went to the wrong bleeding place, we never see ‘em. So we crossed the French coast at about the height of these buildings, and then you imagine what a sight that must have been , ninety-two Lancasters flying –
AM: What a noise [emphasis] never mind a sight.
HI: Yeah, there was loads and loads of ‘em. And all we got was the French girls waving at us and I thought ‘that’s handy,’ and everybody was coming out and waving, it was a beautiful day, and we went right across France. I mean right across France, looking, wondering where the fighters was ‘cause there was thousands of by that time, ’42, there was hundreds and hundreds of fighters in France –
AM: German fighters?
HI: Yeah, German fighters in France. Anyway, we went right across France, there was no incidents, everybody was waving, and we approached the target [coughs] excuse me, and six of us had to break off and bomb the power station that was supplying the electricity to this huge armament factory in Le Creusot. It was a huge armament factory, nearly as big as what the Germans had, and they was producing armaments for the German army. So we broke off, telling you now there was six of us who broke off, Guy Gibson was with us, he was on our port side, and he was on 106 Squadron, Guy Gibson was on, and his second in command was flying the other Lanc, and on our starboard side was two Lancasters from 50 Squadron on the other side, we was in the centre and there was six of us. We broke off and went straight to this power station. Oh, and as we approached the power station, one of the Lancasters on our starboard side just went straight in the deck and exploded. We were – he had six one thousand pound bombs on it, and it literally went straight in the deck and exploded. What happened we don’t know.
AM: Don’t know.
HI: Anyway, the five of us carried on, Gibson was on our portside with his second in command and we was in the centre, and the last one of 50 Squadron was, was on our starboard side. Anyway, we bombed the power station and we absolutely flattened [emphasis] it. We was carrying six one thousand pounders, and we went and we climbed up a little bit and dropped ‘em, and we could see that the whole place was flattened. In fact, the factory was – actually I went back there last year, to the factory and it’s bombed, still bleeding bombed [unclear, laughs]. Anyway –
AM: Did you get your photo?
HI: Pardon?
AM: Did you get – not last year, I mean in 1942.
HI: No we didn’t, I don’t think we took a photo because it was daylight and everything –
AM: So they knew –
HI: Everyone was bombing the same target. Anyway, the ninety Lancs turned round, it was ninety-two ‘cause when we turned around there was only ninety-one, one had blown up in the sky, and we came back over the – by the time we’d got to the French coast it was getting dark –
AM: Still flying really low level?
HI: Yeah, and we started climbing when we got to the French coast, and as we passed the French coast it was getting dark, and we was flying for about another thirty or forty minutes, and all of a sudden the sky was smothered in bloody high explosive shells again. So the pilot said ‘where the bloody hell are we,’ so the skipper said ‘ I think we’ve, I’ve miscalculated and we’re flying over Jersey,’ and we were over Jersey with these huge explosions coming up, anyway the pilot called him a nice fella again, he said ‘stupid chap you are’ like that, and we branched out and come back, but that was a catch that, Jersey was very, very heavily armed, and anybody strayed off the course they wait for you. Shot down quite a few bombers over there. Anyway, we got back and went to the briefing, we were told exactly what had happened, and they confirmed that we done a good job there –
AM: Good.
HI: And I thought ‘there won’t be no more daylight raids after that.’ And we went to, in a week, we had a couple of days off and we went to Genoa [emphasis], and we couldn’t make out why we was going all the way to Italy, it was eleven hour trip to bomb Genoa, but we soon found out because on the Thursday [emphasis] they said, a briefing for Saturday, a daylight raid. So we said ‘surely we’re not having another daylight raid, we was lucky we got away with La Crusoe.’ Anyway, believe it or not, the target was Milan, and we was gonna bomb it, in daylight, taking it from a very, very low level ‘till we got to the Alps, we couldn’t go low level so we had to wander through the Alps, and there was ninety- two Lancasters, darting and diving through the Alps.
AM: Had the Spitfires turned up this time?
HI: No we never see no bloody Spitfires at all this time, and same again, we went right across France, no opposition whatsoever. We went through the Alps, and this is what I call a terror raid. We went across Lake Como about hundred feet then, we climbed to three hundred feet, and there was Milan waiting for us. No air raid shelter, no flak, they never expected British bombers to come all the way from England in daylight, never expected.
AM: Could you, were you low enough to actually see people in the –
HI: Pardon?
AM: Were you low enough to actually see people?
HI: It was, we was that low, we dropped down to about a hundred feet, hundred and fifty feet over Milan, we could see everybody in the streets, in the restaurants, we could see ‘em all. And we see ‘em started running about, there was no alarm given, and the city was completely open, and imagine ninety-two Lancs with six one thousand pounders on. We caused absolute havoc there, and a few of the boys I know were machine gunning, which I thought was wrong. Anyway, we climbed up again, came back, slid our way through the Alps, dropped down again to nought [?] feet and came right across France again.
AM: You missed Jersey that time.
HI: Yeah, we missed Jersey that time. We had our pullovers on [laughs].
AM: What did you feel about that then? The fact that you could actually see people?
HI: Oh we could see ‘em yeah, yeah because we –
AM: What did you, did you talk about it afterwards?
HI: No, we never talked about air raids, never mentioned it. Once you got back it was finished. No body, and same as the logbook, all we used to put in the logbook was the raid, the time, we never, what we should have done was put a little, exactly what happened, but when you put your books into the commanding officer to be signed once a month, [unclear] shooting, just put down what the raid was and that was it, that was what we used to do. But we should have done, we should have put the whole story of what exactly went on. And after that raid believe it or not the Ities [?] didn’t want to know anything more about the war, and there was huge – we had a big publicity the next day in the Daily Express, had a huge photo of Number 9 Squadron, coming back off the raid, and they reproduced it in Italy with, English Gangsters they called us, and there we are. I think we lost four aircraft that night, I don’t know where we lost them, might have been technical trouble, I don’t know, but, to go all that way in daylight and not see a German fighter was incredible. And after that we felt ourselves very, very, very lucky. It was about my ninth trip then, I was one of the top, experienced men then –
AM: And you’d shot somebody down by then.
HI: Yeah, yeah. But we’d, we were the top men in the squadron, we’d done about nine or ten trips.
AM: And you were seventeen.
HI: Yeah, yeah. And from then things got worse. Worse and worse and worse. The –
AM: In what way worse, Harry?
HI: The fighters got much more efficient, and their radar got much more efficient. Their guns got more efficient. Search lights got better, and more, and they had guns that fired with radar and they never missed. I remember later on in the year on my second tour we was bombing a place in the Ruhr Valley, and we was going in, our squadron, and as we was going in, there was people in front of us bombing, and they’d already turned starboard and coming out again, and for some reason, I don’t know, a Halifax [emphasis] I don’t know if it was in our squadron or the squadron beforehand, instead of going hitting the target, I don’t know what happened, he turned and joined the aircraft that was coming out of the, from the bombing run, which was in daylight, and there was a big gap between us going in and those coming out, and then he flew across, and as he flew across the flak went bang, bang, and the third shell hit him right underneath, and just exploded, yeah. Why he done that I don’t know, ‘cause we was all in the shadow of the silver paper we was dropping, and that helps with the – this one had got outta range with it going across and they shot him down straight away, yeah. And as it went on, we used to get leave every six weeks, and Lord [pause] what his name, Rank, Rank, wasn’t Rank, it was the er, the bloke that owned Morris, BMC, owned BMC, and he said, and he gave every aircrew bloke that was on ops, when he went on leave he doubled their pay, for a weeks leave yeah, he done that right through the war. Must have cost him a fortune.
AM: Every airman?
HI: Yeah, well it was in Bomber Command.
AM: In Bomber Command.
HI: Who was flying. He used to give ‘em – he used to, he used to double our pay, yeah.
AM: You know what, just going back to operations, you know the gaps between them, as in a day, a couple of days?
HI: All depending upon the weather. It was entirely dependent upon the weather. If the weather was, it was a bright – I’ll tell you one we went one, we went on one and I still think about it, it was a full light night, getting onto Christmas I think it was, and they said ‘there’ll be no ops tonight because there’s bright moonlight and no cloud,’ and it was suicide to go over there. Anyway, they said they’d picked out sixteen Lancasters, they’d picked out about eight from our squadron, four from 44 and I think four from another squadron, they said ‘we want you to do a low level night time raid on small towns just outside the Ruhr Valley.’ And the excuse they gave us was that the civilian population wasn’t getting any rest from the bombing raids on the Ruhr Valley and they was letting them come to these small towns to get rest. That’s why they wanted to go over there and liven ‘em up. So, it really was a terror raid and we carried sixteen one thousand pounders with a delayed charged of about half an hour, and we found this small town, we was after, just outside the Ruhr Valley, and we went right down, it was brilliant [emphasis] moonlight we were in, we went right down this village or small town and dropped the sixteen one thousand pounders right down the centre of the town. And I often wonder what happened about that, but I don’t, there was no need really to do that bombing really, but there you go, that was war.
AM: Well you called it a terror raid.
HI: Pardon?
AM: You called it a terror raid?
HI: Yeah, yeah, and that was Christmas, went home and had some leave, came back and we started again. And by that time, all the crews that I knew when I joined the squadron in June had all gone, they’d all gone. All been shot down.
AM: Every single one.
HI: Yeah, and they was all new recruits except us, and we was all NCOs.
AM: What do you think kept your plane – why your crew when all the rest of them got shot down? What can you say?
HI: I don’t know, I don’t know. I’ll tell you, shall I tell you?
AM: Go on.
HI: Well, what they used to do, before you went on a raid they used to give us a bag of sweets –
AM: Go on, keep going. I know the story, but keep going.
HI: Oh you know the story do you?
AM: You told me earlier on, but tell me again.
HI: And, we couldn’t undo the sweets with the cellophane, so we used to throw them out of the rear turret, and the Germans knew that and that’s why they never shot us down. ‘Cause they wanted the sweets [laughs]. That’s only a joke [both laugh]. I don’t know, I got no idea. Well, what actually happened, the crew I was with, I said they’d already done fourteen trips on Wellingtons when I joined them, they finished, and they finished, we finished our tour, was up to about sixteen, fifteen or sixteen trips, and I was left with no crew, and I was sitting in the mess, and a bloke walked in, I knew him as Sergeant Doolan, pilot, and he said ‘my rear gunner Robbie has just been killed, would you take his place?’ That was, that was luck really, so I said ‘alright, I’ll become your new rear gunner’ which I did do, and we was an NCO crew, and we was the only crew to, that I know of, all the time I was there, that finished the tour. And how many crews we lost, Lord knows.
AM: But you were the common denominator.
HI: Yeah, yeah –
AM: From the first sixteen and then fourteen and then the –
HI: Yeah, and then, we was all NCOs and we finished the tour, yeah. And I think the pilot got the DFM, and none of us got even a mention of a medal. And there was – but the thing was, what was happening by then was the Germans had come up with a new technique called Schräge Musik, that was what they’d come up with, they’d put two cannons at eighty degree, put the two cannons behind the cockpit at eight degrees so there was the aircraft, and these two guns stuck up like that –
AM: Okay.
HI: And all they had to do, they had radar, and all they had to do was coast [?] yourself underneath a bomber and just fly underneath him. You didn’t have to have no sight, no tracer, it just went underneath the aircraft, up to the petrol tanks, quick squirt, and we used to see ‘em blowing up but we couldn’t make out, we used to come back and tell ‘em that we seen aircraft blowing up in the sky, there was no flak and no fighters we could see, and the, and they literally shot down thousands [emphasis] of bombers, and not once did they ever mention what was going on at the briefing, not once. Never.
AM: Would there have been any way to avoid them if you’d have known about them?
HI: Well, if we knew and known about it, which they knew what we’d be doing, we’d start jiggling up and down, so they wouldn’t get a clean shot at us, but then when you think about it, you get five or six hundred bombers doing that in pitch darkness, you’re gonna get, gonna get a lot of problems. And that was it, but they were shooting them down, ah, unbelievable. Yeah, you had to be lucky really, because if you bowed out you had to be lucky, because if the civilians, you come out near a target and the civilians get hold of you they’d rip you to pieces. Yeah, and the Gestapo shot a few as well. If you was lucky the Luftwaffe got hold of you, was alright, but, or the army got you –
AM: But you never got shot down?
HI: No, I never got shot down, no.
AM: What happened at the end of your first tour, then?
HI: What happened then, finished my tour, didn’t get no bloody medal, don’t know why not –
AM: Even though you shot one down, ‘cause people got medals for that didn’t they?
HI: Yeah I know. Anyway, I went as an instructor, and then I realised how risky this business was, because all [emphasis] that was coming from OTUs were crews being trained in Canada. And when you think they were being trained on single engine aircraft in beautiful weather, all they had to do was follow the railway line from one point to another, everything was easy. Of course when they come to London, especially, and England, especially where, with the weather, and was OTU we had to train ‘em for three or four months before they went on operations, and hell of a lot of ‘em got killed on accidents, but they were very raw, they should have had much, much more training, but then again –
AM: And how old were you at this point? Eighteen?
HI: Yeah, eighteen, about eighteen and a half yeah. And I was an instructor, and apparently, I carried on for a little while and the, we had a bit of a go – oh they sent me up to a place up in Scotland to a gunnery school to do some – the instructors up there wanted to get on ops, don’t know why, but they said ‘you go up there and relieve them,’ about ten of us went up there, and we were in the mess one night, and we all got drunk and caused a bit of a havoc and we went in front of the CO next day, he said ‘I’ve had enough of you blokes, I’m posting you.’ So I thought ‘oh go on, I’ll be posted somewhere out in the Middle East’ or somewhere like that, and anyway I got posted to South End, about fifteen miles from where I lived, and I was thinking ‘be at home every night’ and while I was there, what we was doing there was flying drogues [?], the flak along the south coast, we had a big drogue pulled behind, and I tell you what, when I see that I knew we had no chance at all. They had these, we had to use a toeless drogue, and they used to fight, not at the drogue, a couple of degrees past the drogue, because they kept hitting the drogues and it was becoming expensive. So, but the flak [emphasis] to follow you, right, same height, would follow the drogue all the way along. Anyway, after a while they said ‘you’re posted,’ and this I knew was why the government knew what was going on in Germany with the fighters. They said ‘you’ve been posted to the 77 Squadron, Halifaxes.’ So I thought ‘alright,’ so and when I got up there –
AM: Where was that? Where was it?
HI: Er, Full Sutton I think, yeah Full Sutton. And when I got up there, the CO said he wanted to see me when I got up there, so I thought ‘that’s handy, the bloody warrant officer and the CO wants to see me, I must be important’ and he took me out to the, where the arment [?] officer, out to a Halifax, and what they had done they’d cut a big hole in the bottom of the Halifax and placed a point manual point five over the hole –
AM: Point five –
HI: Yeah, point five, point five machine gun.
AM: Okay.
HI: A much bigger shell than the 303. And they said ‘have you seen any German fighters coming, coming at you, you’ll be able to handle ‘em.’ So they knew what was going on. Anyway, we took off for Duisburg and I was sitting there – I was bleeding freezing, can you imagine there’s a big hole like that, about twenty thousand feet and –
AM: Hang on where’s this, is this in the middle of the plane?
HI: In the middle of the plane.
AM: Right, okay.
HI: A big hole.
AM: Where the bomb doors would have been?
HI: Er, it was different in the Halifax.
AM: Okay.
HI: It was different from the Lancaster. Most the bombs – up, further up and underneath the wings as well.
AM: Right.
HI: Anyway, they dug this hole, cut this hole in the Halifax and they had a point five there, and I sat there, and can you imagine it was about forty-five below, and it seemed the whole world was coming through that bloody hole. The pilot was moaning, the bomb aimer was moaning, and the – anyway, we’d done the bombing raid, come back and they complained bitterly about it, and that was the last that – and they said to me ‘we’re posting you to Driffield, to an Australian squadron’ and that’s where I went then, as a rear gunner at 462 Australian Squadron. I stayed there for a couple of months and I don’t know what happened there, I don’t know if I’d lost my logbook or – anyway, I done about eight or nine trips here and never even registered, and then they posted from there, from 64, er, 462 Squadron on Driffield to its other squadron which was at Driffield –
AM: Why did you keep, why did you keep getting posted to different ones?
HI: Well the pilot I went with in 462, bloke, Australian called Heurigen [unsure of spelling] – 462 they posted away completely [emphasis] but he, he stayed, he said ‘no I wanna stay here at Driffield’ and he went onto 466, and he took me with him. And when he finished, I was in, I didn’t know what to do, and they said ‘we want you to go to 158 Squadron at Lissett’ and that’s where I finished. I don about another ten trips there, and they said to me ‘you done enough, that’s it.’
AM: What was Lissett like?
HI: Nissan huts, terrible. Baking hot in the summer, freezing [emphasis] in the winter. And you come back off an op and you had to go in one of them bloody tin huts. The bedding was wet, yeah. But I survived.
AM: You did.
HI: Yeah, I really survived, yeah. All, most of them, all my friends went there, yeah, a lot.
AM: Was the DFC then for the number of operations you went on?
HI: Number of trips I done, sixty trips, yeah. Yeah, I done more now actually, but –
AM: Well the ones that didn’t yeah, didn’t get counted.
HI: Yeah.
AM: And then so from that point, when you did your last tour, sorry your last operation, then what happened, were you sent to demob?
HI: No, they said to me ‘what was your trade?’ The war had finished, and they said to me ‘what was your trade before the war? What did you do?’ and I said ‘I was an apprentice tailor,’ they said ‘we’ve got the job for you’ I thought – they sent me down to Newmarket on the racecourse, in charge of about eight or nine WAFs on sewing machines. I don’t know why they thought I was – they were making lorry covers on these machines, and they put me in charge of ‘em. Oh, when I was there.
AM: What was that like Harry?
HI: [Laughs] had a little giggle [laughter].
AM: So what, how old are you at this point you’re about twenty –
HI: About twenty, yes. Yeah, about, getting on for twenty.
AM: So go on, you had a little giggle [HI laughs], tell me [HI laughs] go on, tell me some stories.
HI: Yeah I was charge of them, that’s it [laughs].
AM: Right, alright then.
HI: Yeah and then I stayed in Newmarket – oh blimey, it’s, oh it’s only twenty past.
AM: No, we’re alright.
HI: Newmarket was a bombing station if you believe it or not. The Rowley Mile was a runway for 75 Squadron, a New Zealand squadron, and after the war they turned it into a Prussian [?] depot. They was dropping all the aircraft into Newmarket and crushing ‘em.
AM: Crushing them?
HI: Crushing ‘em. Hundreds of ‘em. Into this big machine they just went pfft like, just crushed ‘em up, piled ‘em up. As far as we could see was one huge pile of aluminium.
AM: Going back to you though, so you’ve had your giggle with your WAFs –
HI: Yeah.
AM: Then what? Did you get –
HI: I had a couple of giggles [laughter from both] but it was handy there because we could get up to London from Newmarket, they had a railway station –
AM: How long was it before you were demobbed then?
HI: Er, got demobbed in forty, 1946, August ’46.
AM: So quite early, a lot earlier than a lot of ‘em then? ‘Cause you’d been in the whole –
HI: I’d been in the whole, since [unclear] yeah. I come out, about to find a job, I couldn’t go back to tailoring, I’d missed it you know. Anyway, I tried, went back to tailoring and learnt a little bit. Things were very difficult when we come out, we had no houses, you can imagine London, there was all bloody roofs off the buildings, and then we had to wait for a house. I was married then.
AM: I was gonna say, where did, where did you meet your wife?
HI: I knew her from the, from the blackout. I was sitting on a seat in the blackout and she came along with her friend and we started talking and that’s how it started, and I, it was only when I [unclear] and we got married in forty, 1945, Christmas 1945, and I remember we, we done a couple of trips, and I remember I bombed Dresden, we bombed Dresden just after Christmas, February, but we got married on the Christmas, and I shouldn’t have got married ‘cause we had nowhere to bloody live, better than living with the mother-in-law for a little while, got fed up with that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-23
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:15:35 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AIronsH150723
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
England--Lincolnshire
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Harry Irons. One
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Irons left a tailoring apprenticeship to join the Royal Air Force and trained as a wireless operator but actually became an air-gunner. He describes the uniform he wore and the unreliability of heated suits. Discusses the invention of scarecrows which crews believed were sent up by the Germans to distract and demoralise them. Also describes a number of operations including to the Ruhr Valley and a number of daylight operations including Le Creusot (17 October 1942) and Milan (24 October 1942). Goes on to discuss the removal of Perspex from Lancasters to prevent oil from exhausts from affecting visibility, the introduction of radar into the rear turret and it’s quick removal after it was found as used by Germany and Schrage Musik. He returned to tailoring following his retirement from the Royal Air Force.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Katie Gilbert
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-10-24
1942-10-17
158 Squadron
462 Squadron
5 Group
50 Squadron
77 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Augsburg (17 April 1942)
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
briefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
Gee
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Halifax
In the event of my death letter
Ju 88
Lancaster
military living conditions
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Nissen hut
radar
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Driffield
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Lissett
RAF Manby
Scarecrow
Spitfire
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/452/7941/APederielliM171212.2.mp3
e2651d9ab1831a92ac693f20ef9544b7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pederielli, Marco
Marco Pederielli
M Pederielli
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Marco Pederielli who recollects his wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-12
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pederielli, M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: Sono Alessandro Pesaro e sto per intervistare il dottor Marco Pederelli. Siamo a Milano, è il 12 dicembre 2017. Grazie dottor Pederelli per aver acconsentito a questa intervista.
MP: Pederielli.
AP: MI perdoni. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. Grazie per aver acconsentito a questa intervista. Mi parli per favore del suo ricordo più antico, dei fatti più remoti che riesce a ricordare. Potrebbe essere un ricordo legato alla sua famiglia, ai suoi genitori o alla sua prima casa.
MP: Beh, il ricordo più antico, sicuramente ricordo di quando mio padre ci portò a vivere di fianco all’aeroporto di Linate in una villa a Peschiera Borromeo. Perché mio padre era un ufficiale dell’aeronautica, tenente poi diventato capitano che aveva militato nell’aeronautica da quando aveva vent’anni e fece una ottima carriera essendo entrato come aviere. Per cui, quando io non ero ancora nato, siamo di origini emiliane, Cento, provincia di Ferrara, la patria del Guercino, del pittore Guercino e mio padre fece questa carriera molto buona e andò a seguire tutte le guerre, le guerre di conquista che fece l’Italia negli anni ’30 in sostanza. Dunque Abissinia, dunque Somalia, Eritrea, queste guerre dove lui era rispettivamente capitano, maggiore, sergente maggiore, piuttosto che maresciallo prima di diventare ufficiale. Io non ero ancora nato perché sono nato nel 1938. Questo è molto importante perché 1938 è l’anno in sostanza della dichiarazione di guerra dell’Italia agli stati, agli alleati in sostanza, no? E, e allora in quel momento lì effettivamente mio padre venne mandato prima a Padova poi, no prima addirittura a Palermo quando ancora non, non aveva, non era stata invasa la Sicilia dagli americani insomma per cui stemmo a Palermo, poi a Bologna, poi a Padova e alla fine proprio nel diciamo, nel 1941-42 appunto ci trasferimmo a Peschiera Borromeo, vicino all’aeroporto, all’aeroporto Forlanini, all’aeroporto di Linate. E mio padre dunque comandava questo gruppo che faceva, che comandava tutto l’aereoporto e aveva trenta, quaranta avieri che lavoravano per lui all’aeroporto eccetera. E io ero così piccolo da, addirittura mi ero, mi avevano fatto una divisa, una piccola divisa da aviere e allora il mio primo ricordo è una volta che io, arrivò mio papà, vestito da ufficiale e io cantavo una canzonaccia dei soldati. Allora lui mi fermò e mi disse: ‘Marco, non hai salutato il tuo comandante. Ricordati che tu, che io, prima di essere tuo papà, sono il tuo comandante’. Allora io mi misi a piangere disperatamente, corsi da mia mamma perché appunto avevo ricevuto il primo, la prima, il primo, diciamo sgridata da mio papà, in sostanza, ecco. Questo è il ricordo più vecchio che ho della guerra. Poi arrivò il, sostanzialmente l’8 settembre, no? L’8 settembre come tutti sanno ci fu la, il voltabandiera dell’Italia in sostanza, no? Per cui tutta la parte sud dell’Italia era già stata invasa dagli americani, c’era, c’era sostanzialmente l’ordine che diede Badoglio, personaggio disastroso per, addirittura avevano, gli inglesi e gli americani avevano coniato un termine: ‘to badogliate’. Non se lei lo sa, ‘to badogliate’ vuol dire tradire in sostanza per cui anche i nostri nemici, cioè gli anglo-americani non capivano come fosse possibile avendo una, avendo degli alleati tedeschi chiudere così, senza nessun accordo, col re che è scappato come lei sa in, a Brindisi e con tutto, con tutto il disfacimento totale dell’esercito italiano per quello che poteva valere, perché per un po’ di tempo sembrava che l’Italia avesse una, addirittura Churchill era abbastanza amico di Mussolini, aveva cercato disperatamente di evitare che entrasse in guerra, mi pare, qualche cosa di questo genere almeno. Per cui a quel punto lì quando arrivò l’8 settembre del 1943, 8 settembre ’43, noi dovemmo lasciare la villa di fianco al. Mio padre, diciamo che non scappò ma non volle più continuare in questa situazione perché i tedeschi da una parte gli dicevano: ‘Ma, se non vieni con noi, se non ti iscrivi alla Repubblica Sociale Italiana, noi ti portiamo in Germania, caro Pederielli’. Erano amici e io mi ricordo anche di pranzi dove sono andato a cena con gli ufficiali tedeschi, ero un bambino piccolissimo, vagamente mi ricordo. E così sostanzialmente ci trasferimmo in una cascina dove c’erano anche i topi sulle, che era vicino all’aereoporto e i tedeschi sapevano dove era mio papà e ogni settimana gli dicevano: ‘Allora, vieni o no?’. E finalmente mio padre disse: ‘Va bene, d’accordo, sono anch’io nella Repubblica Sociale Italiana ma tanto aereoplani non ce ne sono più in sostanza. Non c’era più niente, lui non, l’Italia era completamente, negli anni, alla fine del ’43 l’Italia, anche le fabbriche del Nord Italia erano praticamente quasi finite insomma non. E continuavano i bombardamenti, bombardamenti degli alleati e sappiamo il famoso estate del ’43 dove Milano fu praticamente distrutta. Si salvò fortunosamente il meraviglioso Duomo di Milano ma tutto il centro di Milano che adesso è una delle cose più belle che si possano vedere, a Milano, in Italia sicuramente Milano è diventata la città più affascinante, più perfetta che esista, tutto funziona, a differenza di Roma, tutto è perfetto, la moda, l’alimentazione, sono, è una città strepitosa ormai Milano. E ecco e per cui praticamente questa situazione noi andammo. Dopo un po’, essendo mio padre entrato come ufficiale nella Repubblica Sociale Italiana, lui non voleva nessuna carica perché era troppo brutto il discorso di dire: ‘Ma tu stai dalla parte del giusto o dalla parte del sbagliato?’. Lui credeva di essere dalla parte del giusto perché aveva giurato per il re, aveva giurato per tutto, aveva fatto una carriera di vent’anni entrando a diciotto anni eccetera e invece quelli che venivano dal sud, per caso incontrava perché si poteva ancora passare la Linea Gotica così, gli dicevano: ‘Ah, ma tu sei dalla parte sbagliata’. Certo, loro erano dalla parte giusta perché erano, c’erano gli americani ma non perché loro avessero delle cose. Per cui sostanzialmente mio papà aveva abbandonato l’attività e si era dato all’insegnamento delle marconiste, quelle che dovevano, e aveva una sede dove c’è adesso la Malpensa, mi pare. E lui faceva questo lavorino insomma, andava in bicicletta a fare questa cosa con, questo glielo racconto perché poi le da anche un episodio, c’è un altro episodio, un altro piccolo episodio un po’ particolare. Sostanzialmente mio papà scelse di andare a vivere in una villetta a Gorla, che è una piccolissima, era una piccola frazione di Milano, che è su Viale Monza, sulla via che porta a Sesto San Giovanni, molto vicina alle fabbriche di Sesto San Giovanni che erano sostanzialmente tutte distrutte ormai, non. Diciamo che alla fine del ’43 la Pirelli, la Breda, la Fiat, la Isotta Fraschini erano ormai distrutte, non facevano più niente sostanzialmente, anche i tedeschi. Poi c’erano già i partigiani dentro alle fabbriche che facevano attentati o facevano delle, per cui non funzionava più niente in sostanza. Allora cosa successe? Che noi andammo a vivere in questa piccola villa e io avevo cinque anni, esattamente cinque anni ma sapevo già leggere, scrivere, tutto. Allora mia mamma mi disse: ‘Ma, peccato che cominci, che vai a scuola, che ti insegnano a fare le aste, vai e cerchiamo di farti fare l’esame, entra in prima quando tu avresti dovuto, quando tu avrai sei anni, in sostanza, andrai in seconda.’ E questa fu la mia prima fortuna perché io andai, quando avevo, sono nato in luglio, quando avevo sei anni e tre mesi, andai, mi iscrissi alla scuola di Gorla. Mio padre venne a vedere com’era, anche questo me lo ricordo benissimo, il rifugio della scuola di Gorla era una cantina, una cantina puntellata che quando papà la vide disse: ‘Ma qui cade una bomba, muoiono tutti.’ Però non c’era altro da fare. E così arrivò appunto il 1944, poi è l’anno cruciale perché è lì che si fece poi la fine della guerra sostanzialmente per noi è il 25 aprile del ’45 in sostanza, quando anche questa parte d’Italia viene presa dagli americani e dai partigiani che poi diventano numerosissimi perché tutti abbandonano il fascismo eccetera eccetera e non esiste più il fascismo ma il 25 aprile fu la data del 1945, no? E allora, in pratica, passo a parlare di cosa successe quel giorno. Allora, quel giorno successe che questo piccolo bambino che non conosceva ancora i suoi compagni perché non avevo fatto la prima per cui dopo cinque, sei, sette giorni di scuola non conoscevo i miei compagni di classe, non li conoscevo ancora. E andai in questa scuola che era appunto circa cinquecento metri da casa mia, da questa casa che avevamo affittato. Allora successe che i, andai a scuola regolarmente, accompagnato da mia mamma e verso le undici arrivò un’allarme, il piccolo allarme si diceva così quando era un piccolo allarme. Allora tutti i bambini vennero messi in fila per scendere nel rifugio e anche noi che eravamo in prima, che eravamo in seconda, le prime, le seconde, scendevamo per primi perché poi gli ultimi invece erano gli ultimi, anche la quarta e la quinta classe che erano i più grandi, magari qualcuno si è salvato, successo così. Però cosa successe? Che io scesi le scale, scesi le scale e quando fui davanti alla porta d’uscita, quando fui davanti alla porta d’uscita mi ricordai che mia mamma in un giorno bellissimo mi aveva dato un cappotto, un piccolo cappottino. Allora lasciai la mia classe, risalii le scale che la mia classe era la secondo piano, presi con una certa fatica il cappottino e ridiscesi le scale. Erano le undici e quindici. Undici e quindici scoppiò il grande allarme per cui tutti andarono in rifugio. E il bidello non faceva uscire, prima non faceva uscire nessuno ma quando arrivai io aveva aperto la porta e basta ormai erano tutti in rifugio i bambini. Io vidi la porta aperta e corsi fuori. Corsi fuori in questa strada, c’è una piccola strada con una cascina, era ancora molto, di fianco al fiume, il naviglio, che è un fiume che c’è, un piccolo fiumiciattolo e di corsa, io che non ero mai andato senza mia mamma, era sempre venuta a prendermi, l’ho, ho cominciato a correre verso casa che sapevo più o meno dov’era. Vidi chiaramente gli aerei e sentii dei rumori spaventosi, cominciavano a buttare le bombe, vidi, vidi proprio fisicamente le bombe che cadevano. Fisicamente le bombe, e rumori spaventosi che mi sono rimasti nella testa. Vidi chiaramente, vidi le bombe che cadevano, una cosa incredibile. E di corsa, di corsa, non è vero che cadevano da duemila, tremila metri, cadevano, erano molto basse queste bomba insomma [unclear]. E allora di corsa arrivai, dopo duecento metri di corsa davanti alla chiesa, c’era una chiesa lì, c’è ancora una chiesa e per fortuna davanti alla chiesa c’era un negozio di un droghiere, di un, una drogheria, un piccolo supermarket si direbbe oggi e il padrone mi conosceva, m’ha preso e dice: ‘Ma dove vai? Vieni, vieni, andiamo in rifugio, ti porto in rifugio.’ E allora, mentre mi diceva così, scoppiò una bomba davanti alla chiesa, sul sagrato della chiesa ma io ero già dentro all’edificio e finì del, finì nella cantina insomma dove avevano attrezzato una, un rifugio, piccolo rifugio. Che non cadde, non cadde niente e semplicemente questa bomba fece uno spostamento d’aria tremendo per cui quelli che erano rimasti in strada morirono, furono schiacciati dalle, dalla. E io mi salvai e quando finirono, perché subito a questo punto alle 11.45 finì tutto insomma, no? Una polvere immensa aveva coperto tutto questo quartiere che era un quartiere un po’ popolare con delle case, anche delle case popolari eccetera, caduto dappertutto, Viale Monza era completamente. Tant’è vero che mio padre, allora io arrivai, io uscii e cominciai a correre verso casa perché l’allarme era finito. E vedevo delle bombe, anche delle buche enormi perché c’erano anche molti campi in questa zona. E finalmente vidi mia mamma che in un, veniva, attraversava un prato per venirmi a prendere e così io, io l’abbracciai e andammo verso il rifugio che avevamo a casa nostra, che era un bel rifugio ben attrezzato. E lì cominciammo ad avere sentore che qualcosa di spaventoso poteva essere successo perché quella zona non era stata, circa cinquecento metri non era caduta qualche bomba in un prato, in un prato ma non. E allora cominciammo a vedere, ‘Ma sei tu e gli altri? Dove sono gli altri bambini?’ ‘Ah no, ma io sono uscito prima, sono uscito da solo’. ‘Ma come? E mio figlio, mia figlia dov’è?’ ‘Eh, sarà ancora a scuola, sarà andata in rifugio’. Dunque momento di, tragico perché i bambini morti sono duecento per cui erano, ogni casa aveva come minimo due o tre morti, due o tre. E allora, però non si sapeva niente. E nel mentre mio papà che aveva, che aveva il suo ufficio più o meno da queste parti mi pare, non so, un ufficio qualsiasi per dove facevano, addestravano le marconiste non era più all’aereoporto ma era. Aveva visto questa nuvola di fumo così e allora in bicicletta è andato, è arrivato fino in Viale Monza e l’hanno fermato, hanno detto: ‘Ma dove va? Dove va?’ E dice: ‘Vado a casa perché’. ‘Ma lasci stare perché sono cadute tante di quelle bombe su Gorla e su Precotto che la strada, l’altra zona vicino a Sesto San Giovanni, che è tutto distrutto’. ‘E i bambini, i bambini?’ ‘I bambini non sappiamo ancora ma non’. Allora lui arrivò dove c’è la piazza dove era tutto silenzio e lui non si rese conto, tutto saltando da un, da una maceria all’altra, silenzio. Allora arrivò, dopo un poco, in bicicletta arrivò nel rifugio: ‘E Checco, Marco, dov’è?’ ‘Ah, è qua, è qua.’ ‘Ma e gli altri?’ ‘Ah non so, saranno ancora’. ‘Ma’, dice, ‘Io non credo che ci siano, saranno usciti prima’ perché c’era un silenzio meraviglioso dunque. Insomma dopo un poco cominciarono a dire: ‘Ma, no ma, i bambini sono sotto’. E allora lui si vestì così [unclear] e andarono anche lui a, andò anche a lui a cercare di aiutare a tirare fuori i bambini ma si resero conto che i bambini erano tutti morti praticamente. Perché la bomba, una bomba o due bombe, erano cadute esattamente nella tromba delle scale e avevano ucciso duecento, centonovanta bambini. Se ne erano salvati circa una ventina, che magari erano usciti prima, io l’unica persona che qualche volta vedo è un, qualche volta ho visto cercandolo, è un certo Francescatti che fu proprio travolto e si, un braccio, rimase col braccio sotto e si salvò per, per miracolo insomma, no? E anche un, ebbe anche un grosso problema agli occhi ma è ancora vivo e l’ho incontrato un giorno e ha fatto la sua vita normale eccetera eccetera. Per cui sostanzialmente questo è stato l’episodio clou del bombardamento. Poi queste cose sono vere nel senso che erano trentasei aerei americani che erano partiti da Foggia, dal sud, erano venuti su, avevano bombardato e poi. Le voci sono strane. Io ho letto da qualche parte che temevano di non avere più carburante per ritornare per cui quando sono arrivati qua, dopo poco hanno visto che non avevano più carburante e hanno buttato giù tutto dove capitava eccetera eccetera. Questa è la cosa più probabile. Ma anche qui c’è una frase di questo genere dove dice, ricevettero un ordine dal comando supremo di sganciare le bombe qualsiasi e questo falso nome di questo personaggio che non era lui perché, comunque il nome è Stew [o Steward?], qualcosa del genere, del comandante in capo si stupisce molto, dice: ‘Ma perché buttiamo le bombe giù adesso?’ Ma è un ordine del comando generale e buonanotte. Comunque lui era americano infatti qua si vede che è un, è un americano che vive nel New Jersey e che scrive alla sua bambina, dicendo: ‘Ah, andiamo a fare la guerra’, no, era per liberarsi, eccetera eccetera, c’è questa giustificazione che poi sostanzialmente è un po’ quello che diceva lei prima in sostanza, no? Per cui lo facevano di malavoglia, anche loro sembra ma insomma poi dopo lo facevano insomma quello che. Comunque erano trentasei aerei, tra cui fortezze volanti e così, e basta insomma. E poi qui io ad un certo punto dico centotrentasei, in realtà erano trentasei. E aerei che sono partiti da lì dove c’è adesso tutta, in quel libro che le dicevo, addirittura c’erano i nomi, cognomi di tutti, ma era irrilevante quanti fossero, sono. Partivano da Foggia, da un posto tra l’altro molto vicino alla famosa zona del santo Padre Pio [laughs], dove c’è Padre Pio da Pietralcina insomma, dove avevano costruito un aereoporto dove bombardavano tutto eccetera eccetera. Ecco, questo è un po’ l’episodio proprio della guerra che poi ricordo io è questa qua in sostanza. Che dopo io mi sono sentito sempre un miracolato e, miracolato ha condizionato molto la mia vita perché per esempio io quando perdo qualcosa non ho mai, non mi interessa assolutamente perché grazie al fatto che avevo dimenticato, quando dimentico molte cose, pazienza, non gli do mai nessuna importanza perché dico, se l’ho perso vuol dire che forse era meglio perderla che averla insomma, [laughs] no? Per cui questo aspetto. E poi, beh, poi praticamente io non avevo amici lì perché i bambini erano tutti morti quelli della zona e per cui ho fatto il liceo, ho fatto la scuola media più in centro, ho fatto il liceo scientifico dove ormai la cosa. Ma in questi anni, e questo è importante dirlo, non, queste ricorrenze per i primi vent’anni sono state molto limitate. Hanno fatto un bellissimo, non so se l’ha visto, hanno fatto un bellissimo monumento, sono state le famiglie più rilevanti, che si conoscevano, che erano di Gorla, che hanno voluto questo monumento. Hanno portato tutti i bambini in questo ossario che è dentro la chiesa, questi duecento bambini con i loro nomi eccetera eccetera e con le maestre e così. Però non se ne è parlato quasi più per un bel po’ di tempo perché, sì, Milano sì, ma insomma mica tanto, forse solo quelli che avevano parenti, avevano bambini, avevano ma è stata una cosa, insomma un po’ analoga alle foibe diciamo la verità. Perché in fondo c’era il Piano Marshall, in fondo c’erano gli americani. Dirò un ultimo, per darle un’idea, no? Quando arrivarono gli americani a un certo punto, io avevo visto, io, quando stavo a Peschiera Borromeo vidi i tedeschi che se ne andavano. I tedeschi con i loro carri armati che andavano via perché insomma arrivavano poi gli americani, arrivavano, cominciavano i partigiani. Ma poi vidi ancora di più quando arrivarono gli americani su Viale Monza. Quando arrivarono gli americani che successe nell’anno, un anno dopo, no? Il 25 aprile, dunque dopo pochi mesi da questa strage, le madri che avevano perso i figli lì a farsi dare la cioccolata, a prendere sigarette, a tenere, applaudire gli americani. Questo è una cosa che mi colpì in modo impressionante perché insomma voglio dire, avevano perso i figli, avevano perso tutto quello che avevano, non avevano più la casa, non avevano più niente. Però poi gli americani furono bravi perché il Piano Marshall perché, aiutarono il paese a, per cui non si poteva dire che erano stati loro sostanzialmente. Magari si diceva più volentieri che erano stati gli inglesi perché magari gli inglesi erano più antipatici, gli inglesi erano più, sembravano più antipatici infatti. Infatti, questo antipatia per l’Inghilterra, che io non ho mai avuto per la verità, però diciamo che negli anni cinquanta, sessanta, cinquanta forse, sì, negli anni cinquanta, era un, era rimasto un po’ nella testa degli italiani insomma, l’Inghilterra era considerata qualche cosa di, così, non c’era grande simpatia per l’Inghilterra. Poi invece, quando cominciarono, cominciò, bisogna imparare le lingue eccetera eccetera, addirittura io diedi uno, ero il direttore del centro relazioni universitarie con l’estero della Bocconi, accompagnavo su eserciti di ragazze che si dovevano laureare in lingue e che avevano bisogno della ragazza, dell’au pair piuttosto che e allora divenni, divenni un grande, ero un anglofono veramente, conoscevo bene l’inglese, miei amici, anche adesso li vedo, abbiamo un’associazione dei longevi dell’Università Bocconi che sono persone eccezionalissime, allegrissime, lì c’è il, uno che creò proprio un’agenzia di viaggi dentro alla Bocconi per favorire e io accompagnavo le persone su le ragazze, organizzavo i corsi d’inglese all’estero per cui divenni molto amico dell’Inghilterra, andai un’infinità di volte in Inghilterra in treno e. Per cui è cambiato molto l’atteggiamento vero l’Inghilterra. E invece lì, in quel periodo lì era un po’, s’incolpavano abbastanza gli inglesi di questa cosa, era più facile perché Dio stramaledica gli inglesi questa, queste frasi fatte, queste cose qua ecco. Questo è un po’ come si viveva questa, questo dopoguerra, ecco. E poi vabbe, poi dopo a questo punto l’Italia fu uno dei paesi che riuscirono meglio a superare con, all’ONU, abbiamo i nostri personaggi come De Gasperi eccetera che andò là e disse: ‘Io, io non ho altro da chiedere che chiedere scusa al mondo’, eccetera eccetera con il suo cappotto rivoltato senza, era uno dei personaggi che insomma cominciò e così. Per cui questo è un po’ la storia dei rapporti. Io non, non lo so, anche episodi di, ne ho anch’io episodio veramente drammatico per esempio di mio padre che il 25 aprile proprio prima di, prima che prendessero Mussolini e lo impiccassero eccetera eccetera i partigiani naturalmente diventarono, tutti erano partigiani, tutti erano comunisti, tutti erano. E un bel, e lui veniva dalla Malpensa e fecero un posto di blocco qui a Niguarda, c’è l’ospedale Niguarda. E a un certo punto mio papà era in bicicletta, si fermò e c’era un signore della sua età e dice: ‘Ma lei cosa fa?’. Erano tutti lì fermi ad aspettare. E c’era mio papà che aveva un soprabito, e vestito con la divisa. E lui diceva: ‘Io sono un medico. Sto aspettando di andare al mio turno. Un medico qui all’ospedale di Niguarda, proprio qua a cento metri, a mezzo chilometro da qua’. E lui dice: ‘No, no’, dice, ‘io sono un ufficiale dell’aeronautica’. ‘Lei è un ufficiale della nautica?’. ‘Eh, sì’. Perché lui non aveva ancora capito che era finito, che ormai, che erano nelle mani dei partigiani, di quelli che si dicevano tali. ‘Ma vada subito a cambiarsi, a tirarsi via la, i gradi e la divisa lì che c’è una, c’ha magari anche una rivoltella?’ ‘Ma sì, la portiamo sempre’. ‘Ma vada lì che c’è un casottino, tiri via tutto, si metta lì che ne hanno appena ammazzati due ufficiali qua della Repubblica Sociale Italiana’. E mio padre che in fondo non era, non è mai stato fascista, addirittura era un casino per lui perché essendo un ufficiale avrebbe dovuto essere fascista ma lui era sempre riuscito a non avere la tessera perché proprio non. Mio padre all’idea di togliersi i gradi, buttare la divisa in una casottina eccetera e la sua carta d’identità, la sua cosa, lo colpì in un modo veramente grande e a quel punto disse: ‘No, io, basta, non voglio più essere un ufficiale dell’aereonautica, non voglio più’. Poi lo richiamarono e lo misero a Treviso e lì c’era il dopo, dopo qualche mese insomma no? Ma lui nel mentre aveva cominciato una piccola attività a fare le radio eccetera così e un giorno mi portò anche a Treviso e disse: ‘Dai, vieni che ti faccio fare un giro su questo Spitfire’. C’aveva, c’erano gli Spitfire che dice: ‘l’aereo migliore che abbiamo qua’, era un aereo inglese come lei ben sa, e io dissi: ‘No, guarda, io ho paura [laughs]’ e mi fa: ‘Ma come? No, dai!’. Però lui stette lì ancora due anni ma poi non gli piaceva più proprio. Non c’era l’atmosfera più e dette le dimissioni, gli dettero una buona uscita e lui cominciò una vita, una vita di meditazione, una vita strana, una vita. Lui, lui divenne, vabbè, divenne un commerciante perché così doveva mantenere la famiglia eccetera, vendeva vetri, cristalli, specchi ma soprattuto divenne un teosofo, uno studioso delle religioni, e fece anche un libro che io ho pubblicato, Al di là del velo, che è un libro di Teosophical Society, della Annie Besant, si iscrisse a questa cosa e divenne un sostenitore di questa cosa, non c’è religione al di sopra della verità, insomma così. Un movimento nato proprio in Inghilterra mi pare.
AP: Vorrei riportarla per un istante a.
MP: Mi scusi, forse ho fatto delle divagazioni ma poi ho intagliato tutto quello che abbiamo detto non è che [unclear]
AP: Non si preoccupi. Si ricorda Pippo? Mi parli di Pippo, se ha qualche ricordo.
MP: Beh, Pippo era un incubo per noi eh, perché era questo aereo che tutte le notti non ci faceva dormire per un certo periodo di tempo però perché era un aereo che veniva qui, questo dicevano che veniva dall’Inghilterra, non lo so se venisse dall’Inghilterra. Fatto sta che era un aereo che faceva due cose sostanzialmente: una molto brutta perché buttava giù delle cose, dei bengala che magari incendiavano le case; oppure buttava giù delle, delle caramelle piuttosto che delle cose che i bambini poi quando le prendevano in mano scoppiava, cose del genere. Questo lo faceva così come divertissement. Ma soprattutto buttava giù una bomba, mi sembra proprio una e la buttava dove capitava in sostanza. Per cui, adesso magari ne buttava giù anche due o tre, non so, però sostanzialmente ne buttava giù uno o due bombe. Che cadevano dove cadevano. Allora la gente era un po’ terrorizzata insomma, perché quando arriva Pippo non puoi dormire, non puoi andare, devi andare in rifugio, non devi andare in rifugio, devi fare. E io stesso, mi sembra vagamente una volta che andassi, fossi andato giù in rifugio e per un pelo, ero con mio papà non so come mai, per un pelo non mi beccai una cosa, una scheggia, una scheggia che andò a piantarsi, evidentemente era un bengala, questi, no, uno spezzone, uno spezzone ma insomma. Comunque insomma era una cosa che dava molto, che era fatta apposta per terrorizzare un po’ la gente, ecco. Generalmente la gente se ne fregava perché però avevano un po’ paura insomma perché, però era questo, no? Pippo era questo. Su Milano veniva Pippo, forse su Milano, su grandi città era, non lo so ma questo era quello che. Poi c’era Radio Londra che si sentiva, Radio Londra e poi c’era ma insomma, che non bisognava sentire, vietato sentire, cose così, c’erano tutte queste cose qui che io ricordo vagamente insomma, no. Queste sono un po’ le, i miei ricordi che non sono niente di eccezionale ma che però sono, sono vere [laughs].
AP: C’è un’ultima cosa che vorrei approfondire. Lei mi ha parlato della sua laurea.
MP: Sì.
AP: In un periodo in cui le persone che si laureavano erano una minoranza, come si lega questo fatto all’essere un sopravvissuto di quel bombardamento e lei come si rapporta con i suoi compagni di scuola che sono rimasti sotto quel bombardamento? C’è un legame tra le due cose?
MP: No, perché non, no, perché è cambiato tutta la vita, a un certo punto. Io ho continuato ad abitare a Gorla per un bel po’ di tempo, facendo il liceo, che lo facevo in Corso Buenos Aires, liceo scientifico. E lì eran tutti ragazzi che abitavano intorno a Loreto per cui non, non c’era nessun, non è che io avessi un marchio particolare che sei sopravvissuto a Gorla eccetera. Poi la cosa si, cioè come tutti non ne parlavano anch’io non ne parlavo, andavo abbastanza, il 20 ottobre andavo a queste cerimonie dove a un certo punto cominciavano a farla un po’ più regolarmente. I primi tempi non se ne parlava quasi, soltanto proprio queste famiglie di Gorla che si sono unite e hanno fatto, e hanno creato questo bel monumento, e hanno. Ma sono proprio quelli che erano più di Gorla, proprio che erano, proprio erano come un paese lì, e allora loro erano più vicini a questa cosa ma non. Io sono andato a vivere sostanzialmente come, sì, abitavo lì ma non c’era nessuno che non, e poi dopo quando sono andato via da Gorla, mi sono iscritto alla Bocconi perché cioè mio padre lavorava in un ufficio vicino alla Bocconi e allora abbiamo preso la casa là insomma ma non, non ho più neanche, non c’ho neanch’io, ci pensavo solo il 20 ottobre in sostanza, ecco, non.
AP: C’è un’ultima cosa. Lei mi ha parlato di un fatto molto interessante. Le stesse madri che prima piangevano i figli scomparsi, poi hanno accolto festosamente gli americani che distribuivano sigarette e cioccolata.
MP: Sì, questo è sicuro.
AP: Vuole riflettere un po’ su questo? Cosa?
MP: Beh, è molto strano, cioè i miei genitori non erano, loro hanno vissuto un po’ di più, ecco, forse il discorso è un po’ questo. I miei genitori, facendo parte, mio padre della, di coloro che avevano combattuto veramente insomma, no, con, dalla parte dei tedeschi, e in quest’alleanza che, dell’Asse insomma per cui non, non hanno, non volevano assolutamente festeggiare questo arrivo degli americani, in sostanza. In sostanza lo, l’hanno, lo festeggiavano più quelli che erano i comunisti, che erano i, quelli che sono diventati subito partigiani, che sono diventati, per cui siccome lì è una zona molto, molto rossa perché Viale Monza, Sesto San Giovanni eccetera. Per cui i miei erano più, più agnostici, capivano che insomma alla fine questi hanno buttato giù le bombe, poche balle, insomma, no, per cui. Invece la gente più povera, più, che era diventata subito tutta fascista, tutta, scusa, tutta comunista, praticamente quelli lì, effettivamente credevano l’arrivo di questi liberatori, liberatori, erano tutti liberatori, per cui tutti erano diventati liberatori. Erano diventati liberatori i russi, erano diventati liberatori tutti e allora effettivamente c’era questa, come hanno fatto un po’ in Francia, no, che hanno abbracciato quelli che sono arrivati anche se avevano fatto parte della Repubblica di Vichy insomma, no, però erano. E allora questa la ragione per cui, quando c’è stato questo arrivo di tutti questi carri armati che venivano dal sud e sono passati per Viale Monza, questi qui erano pieni di cose che davano, da mangiare, di caramelle, di chewing-gum, di calze da donna, di tutte queste cose nuove, di Coca-Cola, piuttosto che. Evidentemente è un mondo nuovo che si apriva allora, allora c’era questa volontà di, di. Invece sono altre persone che non hanno più bevuto la Coca-Cola, non hanno mangiato il chewing-gum, proprio quasi per rifiuto di entrare subito in questa, poi sono entrati tutti naturalmente ma, cioè non erano molto popolari in sostanza questi americani, ecco diciamo. Gli inglesi non lo erano per natura perché non, venivano considerati un po’. Ma anche mio padre stesso, che pure è un uomo aperto eccetera, lui non è mai stato a Londra per esempio. Io due o tre volte, io andavo a Londra come, l’altra volta, ‘dai andiamo, ti porto, vieni’, allora [unclear], siamo andati con lui in due o tre paesi a fare dei viaggi, a Parigi, anche in Egitto eccetera, ma Londra lui diceva, ma no, Londra. Cioè, c’era sempre qualcosa di minimamente ostile insomma verso l’inglese ma non so, forse perché lui essendo, avendo visto l’inglese come nemico forse non, anche in Africa quelle cose lì. Eppure mio padre per esempio, deve anche lui la sua vita a una combinazione perché ha portato una volta un maresciallo, un Graziani, cosa del genere, sul suo aereo a Gibuti a incontrare il comandante inglese della Somalia britannica, prestando il suo aereo, cioè andando con il suo aereo e il suo aereo è stato sostituito da un altro che è andato a Addis Abeba, è stato circondato dalle truppe abissine e sono morti tutti e lui si è salvato. Per quello ha preso anche una medaglia d’argento perché è andato a trovare questi qui che erano stati come anche è successo a Kimbu che gli italiani sono stati come circondati dai, per cui. Mio padro ha avuto tre medaglie d’argento, in quei tempi lì, insomma lui evidentemente era uno che c’aveva creduto insomma no per cui insomma. Non credeva nel fascismo come le ho detto ma aveva creduto in questo stato che sostanzialmente, insomma non dimentichiamo che l’Italia nel ’33 ha attraversato l’oceano Atlantico ed era diventata la nazione più potente dal punto di vista aereo con non so quanti, cinquanta idrovolanti, una cosa del genere. Ho visto l’altro giorno alla televisione un episodio dove su tutta New York tappezzata di bandiere italiane con Italo Balbo, capo di questa grande spedizione di centocinquanta aerei, mio padre doveva andare poi dopo non so come mai non è andato ma, che hanno attraversato l’Atlantico con gli idrovolanti insomma no. Per cui insomma essere stato un ufficiale, un aviatore dal ’20, mio padre era del ’09, diciamo dal ’22, ’23 al ’40, è stato una cosa insomma, e di aver fatto una carriera molto prestigiosa insomma, partendo da zero è stato, non è andato all’accademia mio papà ma per cui insomma questa cosa l’ha molto. Per cui non aveva molta simpatia per gli inglesi, diciamo così [laughs] ecco.
AP: Le viene in mente qualcos’altro? Vuole aggiungere qualcosa o possiamo concludere qui?
MP: Ma io, se lei, io, abbiamo fatto una chiacchierata proprio, eh, non so cosa può tirarne fuori lei ma secondo me quello che può tirarne fuori è. Perché questo libro qui effettivamente va bene perché è un libro che è stato fatto con grande amore insomma anche se non, anche se non riporta esattamente le cose però un po’ i disegni fatti, un po’ le poesie messe, un po’ così questa, queste illustrazioni. La prima stesura era stata una stesura un po’, molto, molto brutale, io ho detto a Eugenio: ‘Ma no, qua non va bene insomma, far vedere i morti eccetera eccetera’. Invece effettivamente così è una favola, una favola triste e ma diciamo che è quello che si vuole avere. Perché non è, non è memoria, non è storia ma è memoria, questo è importante avere memoria, [unclear] non è storia perché questo, la storia è quella che si fa scientificamente eccetera, questa è una memoria per cui. Qui, anche questo sono io [laughs] e poi. No, no, va bene. Ecco.
AP: Mi sembra eccellente. Concluderei qui.
MP: Sì, direi che va bene così.
AP: Grazie per questa intervista.
MP: Sì, forse una cosa che potrebbe essere più sottolineata è che le famiglie che hanno avuto le perdite più gravi che si sono, si sono unite in una, in una specie di associazione dove, con la quale hanno raccolto fondi nel dopoguerra con il marmo, per comprare il marmo, per comprare tutto quello, per comprare il grande scultore che ha fatto un’opera molto bella è questo è un atto molto importante. Il primo sindaco di Milano che si chiamava Greppi è stato quello che sostanzialmente ha, ha sostenuto questo fatto di erigere questo monumento e non vendere quell’area lì molto grande che molti hanno detto: ‘Ah, adesso facciamo l’area, facciamo dei palazzi eccetera’, loro hanno detto: ‘No, qui sono morte duecento bambini e in questo rione sono morti trecento persone nelle varie case eccetera, facciamo un monumento di ricordo’. Ecco, sono stati un po’ loro che hanno. Perché proprio come le dicevo, sono quelle cose che in un certo periodo storico non era politically correct parlarne troppo, diciamo così, ecco, questo un po’ la. Forse questo vale la pena ecco. Perché lei potrebbe al limite avere una copia di quel documento lì, di quel monumento lì. Lei ce l’ha?
AP: Sì.
MP: Ah, lei ce l’ha. Basta.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Marco Pederielli
Description
An account of the resource
Marco Pederielli describes his father’s career as a Regia Aeronautica officer, providing details of his service in North Africa. Describes his personal situation after the fall of the Fascist regime, when he reluctantly joined the Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana as a Morse code instructor. Chronicles the 20 October 1944 Milan bombing describing aircraft approaching at a low altitude, bombs falling down on Gorla, and the subsequent widespread destruction. Explains how he left the school early and therefore did not go in the shelter where all his schoolmates perished. Mentions Pippo dropping small bombs at night which often maimed or killed children. Describes scenes of mothers who had their children killed during the bombings and cheering American personnel at the end of the war, gratefully accepting small gifts. Stresses the difference in perception between the Americans and British personnel, the former loved and hailed as saviours, and latter being generally disliked. Describes the difficult memorisation of the Gorla primary school bombing and how the monument was built in a period when the aerial warfare war was still a sensitive topic. Describes his father’s post-war career on Spitfires and his subsequent interest in theosophy. Elaborates on the legitimacy of bombing and reminisces how people of different political persuasions welcomed the Allies at the end of the war. Reflects on how being at the receiving end of the bombing has changed his outlook on life.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-12
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:50:52 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APederielliM171212
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1944-10-20
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
bombing of Milan (20 October 1944)
childhood in wartime
memorial
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
perception of bombing war
Pippo
shelter
Spitfire
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/486/8370/ABurdinJR170206.1.mp3
110add58ae6a4b4edfbbb17f5230f227
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Burdin, James
James Roy Burdin
J R Burdin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Burdin, JR
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with James Roy Burdin (b. 1920, 1109124 Royal Air Force) and his service and release book. He worked as a radar technician.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Monday the 6th of February 2017 and I’m in Longton near Preston with James Roy Burdin and we’re going to talk about his work in the RAF in the war largely to do with radar. What is your earliest recollection of life Roy?
JRB: Living on our small holding in Longton and helping my dad from a very early age with his, with his work on the small holding.
[pause]
CB: And where did you go to school?
JRB: I started school at five I think I would be. I’d be five when I went to Longton, Longton Primary School. That’s not a very satisfactory [question?] is it? You know, the local village school. Longton Primary School and I was there until I was, I went in for the scholarship examination as we called it then. It was before the eleven plus day and it was virtually the entry to grammar school. Only the ones that the teachers at school thought had a chance were put in for the exam because we had to go to Preston to sit the examination and I passed and was awarded a place at Hutton Grammar School and I studied there for the school, for the, what did they call it in those days? It wasn’t the GCE was it? The equivalent of today’s GCE anyway and I I passed that and got my certificate for that but there was no question in those days, very few people went on to further education after that. For one thing I knew that there wasn’t money in the family to support me to go on to university or anything of that sort even if I’d been eligible for it so I I left school with that qualification and it was at the time of the big Depression in the ‘30s and jobs were very difficult to get but eventually I went to work for a small business in Preston. Radio repair and sales. Just a one man business [at that point?] but that didn’t last very long because the main trouble was that it was I had to use a bus to get into Preston. Although I’d only been with this situation for a short time the proprietor usually had calls to make on his way down to work from his home in Longridge and I was left to open up the shop although very inexperienced at the time and very often he’d be out either delivering or collecting radio sets for repair until quite late at night and the shop hours were very long anyway so my dad thought that I was, shall we say, I don’t know how to put it really. Anyway, my dad thought that I would be better off coming and helping on the, on the small holding so I went to the agricultural, or horticultural rather, training station at Hutton and took their course which was only a short course and I continued working on the holding. We had greenhouses and market garden mostly and orchards and it was quite a pleasant life but not exactly a pot of gold, you know but I was doing that until, until the war started and eventually of course as I said before, I think, I joined, I volunteered for the RAF.
CB: Why did you choose the RAF rather than one of the other forces?
JRB: Well, some of my ex schoolmates discussed it all and we thought that the RAF would be a good unit to, to get into. We thought the conditions were better for one thing and you wouldn’t get involved in the dreadful trench warfare of the previous, previous war which everybody expected might recur again and so it was actually at the time of Dunkirk that I realised, I seemed to have rather a blank in a way about the international situations and that sort of thing and I wasn’t very, very quick to realise the danger that Germany was presenting to the, to the world and when the near disaster occurred at Dunkirk and the Germans were more or less on our frontier I decided it was time to, to join up so that’s when I volunteered for the RAF. When I first went for my interviews for the RAF they said, ‘Well there will be a, a gap. We won’t take you right away. We’ll call you at a bit later date.’ So in the meantime the, what became known as the Home Guard but started off as the Local Defence Volunteers was formed and I joined the local group and we did a bit of rifle practice and general infantry training really and we had a patrol on Longton Marshes. We did a night patrol down there and from there we could see the, the German bombing of Liverpool but of course we were a little country district so we didn’t attract any of the, of the bombs and I I was with that until the RAF called me up and then -
CB: When did they do that?
JRB: I was posted to Blackpool and billeted in one of the boarding houses there. We, we were kitted out and given basic training, foot drill and all that sort of thing on the promenades at Blackpool and the Winter Gardens became a Morse school. It was all fitted out with tables with Morse keys and that was where a lot of the air crew in the RAF got their Morse training. As I mentioned to you my speed didn’t build up satisfactorily on Morse. I could, I could learn the code easy enough but I couldn’t get, I wasn’t confident enough to get any speed up and so they said, well there’s a new branch opening up and since you’ve had experience of radio repair work and actually radio had always been my hobby right from school days so they said, I think they said, ‘Do you know what a supersonic hetrodyne is?’ So I had to tell them that which a lot of people didn’t know and that got me on to the, it was, it was highly secret at the time, nobody would mention the word RDF which was our original name for the, what became known as Radar. It wasn’t until the Americans came in that they started calling it Radar but to us it was RDF which was Radio Detection Finding. So there was some delay in starting the course that I was destined to go on and in the meantime I was sent over to a place called Bircham Newton which was a Coastal Command station on the Norfolk coast and I spent some months there waiting for my course to be organised and there I was just doing ordinary general duties. You know just, it was a sort of a standby position but I saw quite a bit of the, the Coastal Command life and I was there when the, what do you call it? I’m not very good at this I’m afraid. I was there when the Fleet Air Arm, I think they were Gladiators. Would they be Gladiators?
CB: Yeah.
JRB: Or would they be -?
CB: Yeah. No. They’d be Swordfish.
JRB: Swordfish probably. The old, the old biplane.
CB: Swordfish.
JRB: I was there when they dropped in at our station to refuel and have a break and a meal before taking off to bomb the German battleships.
CB: Oh Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.
JRB: Yeah. And of course most of them were lost anyway on that raid. So I was there at that time. And then I was sent to London to join a course at Battersea Polytechnic on general radio principles and that type of thing and at the time we were billeted in premises that the RAF had taken over next door to the American Embassy in Grosvenor Square so we had the whole place taken over and converted into RAF billets really. We were taken each day by coach to Battersea to do the course at what later became London University or part of London University. The end of that course I was posted to Yatesbury on Salisbury Plain and that was the first glimpse we got of radar equipment or RDF equipment. They had obviously, they’d got the school all set up there and they’d got the equipment, the transmitters, receivers and ancillary equipment for a radar station and we studied there for several months and on, on passing out there it was practically Christmas time. This would be in ‘41 wouldn’t it?
CB: Ahum.
JRB: So we were all posted to our various units and my friend and I got postings to St Bride’s in the Isle of Man. So we duly arrived at Liverpool expecting to get a sailing across to the Isle of Man but they said, ‘Oh, no more boats sailing until after Christmas. You’d better have Christmas leave.’ So we weren’t displeased about that and went off home. He to Manchester where his home was and I to Longton. And on reporting back again, beginning of January they said, ‘You’re not going to the Isle of Man anymore. You’re going down to a place called Ruislip near London.’ So we went down to Ruislip and reported there to find that it was a small unit that was building up convoys into radar stations. The, the equipment, the transmitters and receivers and other equipment were made by commercial firms obviously such as Metro Vickers, they made transmitters and Cossors and other people made receivers and so on but I think the reason they were scattered about in that way was because they didn’t want the people to know what it all, put together, what it all became when it was assembled together. Anyway, we, that was our job. To, to set up mobile radars ready for going overseas mostly. I seemed to gravitate to, to being on the transmitters which were a very massive piece of equipment made by Metro Vickers of Manchester and they were about two tonnes a piece. Well we had to manhandle those into, into vans which were on the old Crossley vehicles of which the RAF had a lot. Big hefty thumping old, old type vehicles and they, they had bodies specially made at Park Royal body builders and so on at, at London. So we had to receive these by road from the manufacturers and manhandle them with crowbars and and whatever equipment we needed to get them in to place in these vehicles. Then we had to tune them up to the required frequency and check their output and all the functions and alongside us the receivers were being treated in a similar manner. And a convoy would consist of a transmitter vehicle, receiver vehicle, a trailer for the antennae and the wooden towers which they used for the transmitters, for the signal for the aerials for the transmitters so altogether there would be oh and there would be a diesel generator on a, on a separate trailer and all that together would form a radar station and after, after us doing all the tests and cabling all the connections and everything they would be sent off to wherever the army or the RAF wanted them. So I worked on that for quite a while. Do you want me to carry on in this –?
CB: Please do.
JRB: Yes.
CB: What was the crew, the number of people who would be on this crew for the convoy? How many people?
JRB: We never saw the full, we never saw it go out as a full unit. I don’t know how -
CB: Oh so you -
JRB: There would probably be, well you see with radar it would have to work pretty well twenty four hours a day so they’d have enough people to, to form crews to cover the twenty four hours and -
CB: So these were, you were able to move them around but what, what were they used for? Was it for training other people or were they used inland because the chain radar didn’t read inland?
JRB: Oh this, no this was, the chain radar was already in place.
CB: Yes.
JRB: Now the chain radar had heavier equipment still and the transmitters for that were pretty well built on sight, you know. They weren’t moveable really but that was operating because there had already been the Battle of Britain and the chain stations were very active during that time.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: But these were mobile convoys which would go overseas and wherever the theatre of war needed them they’d, they’d go but that didn’t, that didn’t tie up directly with the chain stations because as I say they were a very, a fixed, absolutely fixed installation.
CB: Yeah. And only -
JRB: They used, they used three hundred and sixty foot transmitter towers, steel towers and they used two hundred and forty foot receiver towers. You know, the chain system had fixed antennae which, looking back on it, it seems quite a primitive type of equipment to us but in its day it was the front of technology and we all thought we were very big stuff to be associated with it. But the purpose of the chain was to cover mostly the south and east coast although there were stations further, further afield along the coast. Every so many miles you would have a chain station and they all had to work together.
CB: So those were large and static. You’re using mobile but I thought, what I want -
JRB: These were, these were very static stations.
CB: Yes.
JRB: And of course the chain with these aerials and the frequency they worked on only looked one way.
CB: Yeah. Outwards.
JRB: The transmitter aerials or antennae were a fairly widespread beam. Not the, not the highly directed beam that we associated with higher frequency stations but the, the frequency they were working on was what we would consider very low today but obviously aerials of that sort couldn’t be swivelled around on a gantry. They had to be fixed. The receiver aerials likewise on separate towers were what I refer to as cross dipoles. That means to say that one aerial is north south and the other is east west and by using an instrument known as a Goniometer the operator on the receiver could swivel this knob that was a Goniometer which was graduated in degrees of the compass and could differentiate the direction from which the echo was coming. The whole system of radar of course as you are probably well aware is that you transmit a pulse and you measure the time it takes for that pulse to get back reflected from an aircraft or whatever, it might be a flock of seagulls and when you measure that, that time interval of the return trace you know since electromagnetic waves travel at the speed of light you know what the distance is so that’s how we were able to forecast the approach of bombers and the operators were largely recruited from the WAAFs and they became very adept at, at this work. From experience they could tell pretty well how many aircraft were involved. If it was a raid with say fifty aircraft in it they would be able to tell the controllers pretty well the size of the numbers involved in the raid which was very useful of course. So that was operational all during the Battle of Britain time and continued on right through the war actually but other forms of radar came along later on. Higher frequencies as you know with the, with the rotatable antennae. The first one I knew of that type was what we called CHL. That was Chain Low. CHL, Chain Low, because the original chain stations didn’t see the aircraft if it was quite low down so they wanted this other. Now that was on a higher frequency and it could detect aircraft at lower levels and also it used what we call a PPI which was a Planned Position Indicator tube which was a round tube. The original chain station drew a straight trace across the Cathode Ray tube and aircraft caused a downward deflection of that trace so it was like a V would form on the trace. That meant it was picking up a return signal.
CB: On the screen you mean?
JRB: Yeah, on the, on the -
CB: Cathode Ray tube.
JRB: Cathode Ray tube screen. Now the PPI, the aerials rotated and you had the display more like a map. It looked, as it swept around the, the location of your station was the centre point of the, of the tube and the trace would turn about it actually, axially so that you could get the direction and the distance of the incoming echo which was a big improvement really. I don’t think anybody would think of a radar receiver without that facility nowadays because now that we’re on much higher frequencies that is a generally accepted way of displaying it. So back to 4 MU at Ruislip where we were setting up the, the stations which were working on the same principal as the, as the chain station. They had fixed aerials and had the same drawbacks you might say as the, as the chain as the big chain stations but they were supposedly mobile but they were rather clumsy awkward things to, to consider as mobile. Then a lighter equipment called, what did you call them? [pause]. Anyway, it was a sort of a much more mobile and much more, much lighter equipment than the, than the forerunners and they started to arrive at Ruislip for us to set up and so there was a separate flight formed. B flight, which I was put into and we, we used to fit those into fifteen hundred weight trucks or vans and they had, they had a rotating aerial. They ran off a petrol generator which was adapted from a motorcycle engine I believe and then of course there was a receiver vehicle and the, the aerials were mounted up on the top of the same vehicle.
CB: Was the principal of these the same as chain? You weren’t on to parabolic aerials by then were you?
JRB: We’d got, we’d got a step forward on to higher frequency so that’s why we could use rotating aerials.
CB: Right. Rather than parabolic ones.
JRB: Yeah. And the whole equipment was very much lighter and more mobile than the previous one. Well some of these we were fitting into, into these fifteen hundred weight trucks which were very common in the army and the air force in those days and we also had, to accompany them, a jeep with the radio communications equipment so all told that made up a convoy which again were ready for going out to, well again they were used quite regularly in, in the desert and later on in, on the continent.
CB: So they’re main, mainly going to the desert were they in those days.
JRB: Yes.
CB: To North Africa in other words.
JRB: A lot went to North Africa and of course when we invaded D-Day at they went over to the continent with them and that was what I worked on for most my time there.
CB: So you were loading up these vehicles but who were the crews to look after them? Were you training the crews for the equipment or did they -
JRB: No. The crews -
CB: Come already trained?
JRB: The crews were trained at the radar schools, I expect. At Yatesbury and places like that you see. All we did was just put the convoys together and get them ready for operational use.
CB: And were they air force people who were running these radars or army?
JRB: Mostly air force I would say. Yeah. So that’s what we were doing.
CB: So they went to Algeria after the Torch landings and then on to Tunisia and then they were coming from the other end. That’s what you’re saying are you? In other words coming across the desert from Egypt.
JRB: Yes. So wherever radar was needed to follow up the forces. Of course the, being an RAF scheme it would be directing our aircraft where necessary to attack the enemy.
CB: And detecting the German attacks on the British forces.
JRB: Yes.
CB: Now you mentioned the fact that later version could the CHL gave you, gave the lower altitude detection. Was that only on the Gee, on the CH chain or was it on your mobile ones as well?
JRB: No. On the, on the mobiles as well. That was -
[pause]
JRB: Various other equipments came along and they more or less all passed through our hands at Ruislip. I don’t know. I think we’ll have a break.
CB: Ok. We’ll have a break. Thank you.
[recording paused]
JRB: I don’t think I’m doing, completely ready to switch on.
CB: So in those days -
JRB: [When it left us?]
CB: In those days everything was done by using huge valves, well valves anyway, but big, how big were the valves that would be used in your mobile radars?
JRB: In the mobile, in the lighter one they were very much smaller. I should say about six inches tall. Something like that. Probably a bit less than that. More like four inches.
CB: Each valve.
JRB: But -
CB: Was the different, was there a difference in valve size between the transmitting part of the radar and the receiver?
JRB: Oh definitely.
CB: So how big were the transmitter ones?
JRB: Well the transmitter ones I’m talking about really.
CB: Oh right.
JRB: Because I had more to do with the transmitters than the receivers. For some reason I always seemed to be picked to be a transmitter man.
CB: Right.
JRB: And I quite enjoyed working on the transmitters. Of course they were using very high voltages and a lot of people didn’t want to know about them. They were a bit scared of them.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: We’d a, I remember on one occasion at Ruislip we had a, I don’t know what his rank would be but he was, he was Ministry of Defence and he was not exactly like a signals officer but he was, he was, he classed as an officer and he used to come around more or less overseeing what we were doing and one day I believe that he got a bit too near the high voltage and got himself knocked out but he came around again but the transmitting side you’d be talking about two thousand five hundred volts and that sort of thing you know which were really very lethal if you didn’t know what you were doing but anyway that’s -
CB: So what was the process? You mentioned earlier that the equipment was built by different companies so that it wasn’t obvious what the package was.
JRB: What it was going to be when it was all fitted together.
CB: So it arrived with you from the manufacturer. Then what did you and your colleagues do with all these parts?
JRB: Well as I say we fitted them in to the respective vehicles and did all the cabling and necessary inter-connections and tuned then up to the correct frequencies that was designated and that was about it.
CB: And with the convoys was -
JRB: Any, any, any faults we had to correct and put new parts in if necessary.
CB: And each convoy had a generator.
JRB: Each convoy had a generator.
CB: What, what was that and what was its capacity?
JRB: Well, the, the ones for the original mobiles, that is the ones that were very similar to a slightly smaller version of the, of the chain station the, the generator was a, I think it was a three cylinder Lister diesel engine driving a three phase generator. Quite a hefty piece of equipment and these particular diesels, diesel isn’t very easy to turn over by hand anyway but there were no self-starters on them. The only way to start them was by a crank handle and in cold weather in the winter it was very difficult to, to turn that handle around. In fact we resorted to tying ropes to it and having a couple of men on either end of the rope and push pull to get, to get it over the top dead centre of the starting point but that was that. We had to use whatever equipment was sent to us. I think these, like a lot of the wartime equipment I think it had been adapted from some civilian usage but the ones for the lightweight convoys they were much more manageable. They were a two cylinder horizontally opposed engine. I think they were a firm at Coventry called Climax I believe had those.
CB: Again, diesel was it?
JRB: That was, that was a petrol driven generator. It was adapted from a motorbike engine. Now going on from that eventually we, they were stepping up the frequencies anyway. It was always, always trying to find equipment which would work on a higher frequency which was preferable for radar purposes and also it meant that the aerial size was smaller and we were supposedly, the magnetron was developed which would, which would operate where the old, the old type valves wouldn’t and we could, we could use much higher frequencies with that.
CB: So the magnetron was the key to reducing the size of the kit was it?
JRB: That was the key, the key to improving the radar system altogether really.
CB: What was the key point about magnetron? It’s ability to handle high frequency?
JRB: Well it worked, it worked on an entirely new principal.
CB: Right.
JRB: It would be a bit too to difficult to explain [unclear] but it involved especially designed core which had a number of cavities on a cylindrical pattern and by, its difficult to explain really. By subjecting this to a very strong magnetic field you could get, you could develop an oscillation from it whereas an ordinary valve wouldn’t oscillate above a certain, certain frequency so that was, that was much, a big improvement for it.
CB: So that was the key to the centimetre wavelength.
JRB: Yeah.
CB: Now when you go first, fast forward now to D-Day, how was the equipment handled there? Packaged and handled.
JRB: Well, prior to D-Day we had a programme for water proofing equipment and we had to, we had to make up convoys which were swathed in [blue?] fabric and Bostik cement to keep the sea water from getting on to them but they were still in the same vehicles so they could only go in shallow water virtually. They weren’t on a tracked vehicle of any sort but we all got in a horrible mess with all this Bostik and stuff around and it got on to all our tools and you couldn’t pick a screwdriver up without sticking to it [laughs] but that apparently saved them from being damaged on the landings. I don’t say they went in at the very first landings but they’d have probably followed on very shortly afterwards. So that was, that was -
CB: Now -
JRB: D-Day.
CB: Was, were there two sizes of equipment all the time or was it simply that they were being made smaller as time went on? In other words was there a bigger one for longer range and the shorter one was for -
JRB: No.
CB: More tactical use.
JRB: I don’t think so. I don’t. I think I think the original mobiles were sort of gradually phased out. I think we went more on, on to the lighter weight ones. LW. Lightweight Receivers they were called and there was another occasion when we, when we had a special job. At some stage, I think it was before D-Day the Germans started a night bombing campaign which became known as the little blitz. I don’t know whether you’ve ever heard of that.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JRB: But the little blitz was designed to renew the, the bombing campaign against Britain, against London in particular and the Germans thought that they’d got an advantage because they’d developed a rear, a rear looking radar which they would fit to the tails of the bombers and so they could see our night fighters coming up from behind. ‘Cause as you probably know the object of downing a bomber is to put the rear gunner out of action first and then it’s the bomber’s a sitting duck virtually so with this they thought they could get away with it and come up behind our our aircraft and -
CB: So how did that link in with you?
JRB: Well I was going to say, [pause] just a minute I’ve got something [unclear].
CB: This is interesting because they actually lost -
JRB: Lost something there I think.
CB: They actually lost sixty percent of their aircraft in that mini blitz, so, shot down -
JRB: I’m not talking about our raids on Germany.
CB: No. No. We’re talking about their, their mini blitz.
JRB: Of the German’s raids -
CB: Final fling.
JRB: On this renewed bombing against London. Now -
RB: You were going to say something about Meershum the other day weren’t you? Is that to do with it?
[pause]
CB: Did you get hold of one of these as a result of it being, the aircraft being shot down?
JRB: That was, wait a minute. I’ve got a bit lost I’m afraid.
CB: Ok. We’ll have a break.
RB: I’ll make another cup of –
[recording paused]
CB: So we’re just talking about the mini blitz and the fact that the Germans had got a rear facing radar detector.
JRB: That’s right.
CB: So what came out of that?
JRB: Now then, it turned out that the frequency that their rear, rear radar was working on was quite near to the frequency of our, some of our transmitters so we were asked to retune to get on to the German frequency and to put out a jamming signal which we did by modifying a transmitter so that instead of sending out the usual radar pulses it would send out a continuous noise signal which would block the display of the German rear radar and we always presumed that we were successful with that because we did a [panic?] programme, modifying equipment and setting it up. We went out on fitting parties along stations, the old chain station sites such as Pevensey, Pevensey and along the south coast and we went and fitted up this modified equipment in, in these mobile vans that we were using for the, the radar, anyway but instead of sending, you know that radar sends out a pulse from the transmitter and then it, it shuts off. It’s just a short pulse and you wait for the echo to come back. Well, now we were, we were asked to modify a transmitter so that instead of doing that it would send out a noise signal continuously and we set these stations up, mostly at the existing sites of chain stations and it wasn’t very long before the Germans called off their night raids so we always, we never got any direct feedback on it really but we always claimed that that had, that had influenced them in deciding to call it off and for some reason or other they named that Operation Meershum which of course is the name of a German type of pipe isn’t it?
CB: How is it spelled?
JRB: I think you spell it M E, M E, would it be M E E R S H U M or something like that. Meershum.
CB: Ok. We can look it up. So these mobile transmitters were placed where to achieve this?
JRB: They were sited on -
CB: On the CH stations.
JRB: Mostly the old, the old existing stations, you see.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: We were -
CB: Facing inwards.
JRB: Eh?
CB: Were they facing inwards in to the country these, these mobiles because they were on the back, the German radar was on the tail of their aircraft
JRB: They were -
CB: So to jam them they’d need to have, would they -?
JRB: Do you know I can’t quite remember.
CB: Was the idea to get the Germans before they reached the UK or more -
JRB: No. It was too -
CB: When they were inside.
JRB: After they got inside I believe.
CB: Yeah. So, so the, what I’m asking is if the mobiles were facing inside to be able to do the jamming.
JRB: Well I imagine that -
CB: They must have been mustn’t they?
JRB: The aerial would be sweeping around. On it’s usual -
CB: Ok.
JRB: Every time it came around it would -
CB: Ok.
JRB: Block them out wouldn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
JRB: I’m not quite sure about that but I know that we always thought that we stopped this mini blitz on London anyway.
CB: Right. Right. So there’s an important point here isn’t there? The CH stations only were for the protection and identification of aircraft coming towards Britain. In this particular case we’re talking about aircraft that got through the coastal area and were inside but your aerials were effectively giving a rotating beam whereas the CH stations were only directed out.
JRB: The CH stations were just directed outwards. Yeah because of course the equipment of the CH was, it would be quite impossible to –
CB: Yeah
JRB: Have it rotating anyway.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. I’ll stop there.
[recording paused]
CB: So -
JRB: The landing like Arnhem and that -
CB: They used gliders extensively.
JRB: They used gliders a lot and we, we had a, you’ve heard of the old Hamilcar glider have you?
CB: Yes. A big lifter.
JRB: A big one. Well the manufacturers sent us a dummy body of one of those to our station at Ruislip and the idea was that we were to build equipment which could fit in to this Hamilcar. So the thing was they wanted to make sure it would drive in as opposed to do it on the rule of thumb you might, might say and we had, we had specially set up equipment. These transmitters and other equipment which were in vehicles. I think the, I think the radar, yeah the radar would be in a specially built up body in a fifteen tonne truck and it had to be possible to drive it in and out of the Hamilcar so we, we had those made up locally and we’d one or two, not, not everybody could drive in those days you know.
CB: No.
JRB: And we’d one or two people who were quite good drivers and we trained them up to get these vehicles in and out the Hamilcar car. Well, we made up, I think it was six convoys like that to go with the troops and there was -
CB: That was for Arnhem was it? Or for D-day? D-day was a sea landing.
JRB: No.
CB: Was it for the vehicles.
JRB: It would be the -
CB: For Arnhem?
JRB: The river crossings wouldn’t it? The, like -
CB: Oh ok for crossing the Rhine.
JRB: Arnhem and that type of -
CB: And the Rhine. Yeah.
JRB: Wouldn’t it because that’s where the gliders were mostly used wasn’t they?
CB: Ok. Yeah.
JRB: We had special equipment for that and there was one, there was a station down near Bournemouth, Tarrant Rushton and that was a big depot for the gliders. I suppose quite near the coast to make a fairly short crossing and we took one set down there and there was some snag about it and it was suggested that I and one of my mates would accompany it. They were, they decided to do test flights to about six different stations up and down and one of them was a station near Bedford and we said well we’ll go on that one and there was a fault on it or something. I can’t quite remember just what it was at the time. So we got a trip in the glider which was quite an experience.
CB: To Twinwood Farm.
JRB: And -
CB: Twinwood Farm was the -
JRB: Yeah.
CB: Airfield there.
JRB: But you know when you, when the, when the glider casts off its rope you’re entirely at the mercy of the glider pilot and he knows that there’s no case of going around again and trying again. He’s got to put the thing down somewhere and pretty quick and it was a grass field and he, he had to land on the grass which was a bit, a bit hairy really but anyway.
CB: Were you looking our or did you close your eyes?
JRB: [laughs] No. We were looking out. But I don’t think we were very, very happy about it but of course a lot of the gliders were lost weren’t they? They were shot up and shot down before they ever got there [I reckon?]. That was about the only excitement we got with it really.
CB: What was the purpose of the tests? Was it to see whether the equipment would survive?
JRB: To see if it would be, the operational feasibility to do it, you know.
CB: I was thinking of terms -
JRB: To get out of the, to get the equipment out and rolling and get it set up isn’t it?
CB: I was thinking of the vulnerability of the valves to a heavy landing.
JRB: Well they had to take their chance didn’t they? And also it had to carry goodness knows how many jerry cans of petrol for the generator so it was a thing liable to go up in smoke at any minute sort of thing.
CB: I’ll stop there for a mo.
[recording paused]
JRB: The space between D-day and VJ, wait a minute. Not D-day.
CB: Arnhem.
JRB: No. No. I’m moving on.
CB: Oh ok so crossing the Rhine.
JRB: Yeah but after, after VE day.
CB: Oh yes.
JRB: Victory in Europe.
CB: Yes.
JRB: We concentrated on the war in the east of course and we expected that to go on for quite a long time. Now the, we got reports back that the termites were eating all the insulation off the wires and that in the, in the ordinary sets so we had to strip them all down and rebuild them with this new development. PVC wiring. Because apparently they couldn’t eat that and so we had a big job taking all the receivers and transmitters to pieces and rewiring them with this termite proof wire and things like transformers and components of that type, they had to be immersed in a solution of Perspex or something very similar and dried off so that they were coated in a something that the termites wouldn’t eat which of course as you well know the American atomic bombs put a rapid end to that war so these things weren’t really needed much longer than that.
RB: Although I suppose in, would they have termites in Korea after that.
JRB: But we’d, we’d modified quite a few equipments ready to go over there.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: But that was about the end of the war wasn’t it?
CB: So that was August ‘45. Then what did you do?
JRB: Well I stayed on at Ruislip and of course things got very quiet and we didn’t do very much more until the end of the, until getting demobbed but of course as you know we all had to wait our turns for, for demob.
CB: How did they keep you busy during that period? From August ‘45 to when you were demobbed?
JRB: What did I?
CB: How did they keep you busy from that, during that period ‘cause we’re talking about eighteen months?
JRB: I think there were one or two new developments coming out because there was one case where we, it was when the parabolic reflectors started coming out more and we had one or two sessions with developing or testing those of different types. I’ve got a photograph somewhere of, of a team of us setting up one of the parabolic reflectors but I just couldn’t lay my hands on it at the moment. But that was about it really you know just thinking about new equipments coming along and developing for peace time use I suppose. More or less.
CB: So the development of the parabolic aerial. What did that do to the overall size of the convoy.
JRB: Well it wouldn’t make much difference to the convoy but they were gradually getting more into microwave technology and just general, general developments that were coming along, you know but nothing very outstanding as far as I -. The pressure was off, you know. It was -
CB: Yeah.
JRB: But we were getting, going down to TRE and setting up -
CB: So what was TRE?
JRB: Technical Research Establishment I think it was and no, it was just, of course I suppose the modern radars are a big advance on what we were using at the time but we were just experimenting and testing out some new developments during that period.
CB: ‘Cause that was at Malvern at that time wasn’t it? So did you go up there?
JRB: Malvern was a centre for that sort of thing.
CB: How many vehicles were there in these convoys? What were, what were, what were the vehicles?
JRB: Well, the big the original ones. The heavy ones there would be a transmitter, a receiver, a communications, a trailer of the aerial and a trailer for the diesel generator so there would be about five, five items in a convoy really.
CB: And as time went on they did -
JRB: And then of course when we got on to the light, the light warning system
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JRB: There would more or less be only a transmitter, a receiver and communications vehicle but all all very much smaller vehicles. More manoeuvrable.
CB: And where was the petrol stored when you were travelling? With the generator or in a different trailer? ‘Cause you used a lot of petrol or diesel.
JRB: Well as I say the ones that we did for the airborne landings they’d got to carry the petrol with them in jerry cans. Enough to run for a good time and then I suppose they’d get their supplies through normal channels you know but it wasn’t a good thing to be carrying loads of petrol on board when you’ve got troops in as well on the gliders. But I always think that I had a very easy and comfortable war compared with many, many people.
CB: So what was the accommodation like at Ruislip?
JRB: Our site, it was only a small unit, our site I think we’d two, two billets. Two huts about thirty men to a billet in the middle of a field. No, no heating unless you could scrounge some coke and get the coke stove going. No proper toilet facilities. No, no baths but there again you rely on somebody to keep the, keep the coke fired boiler going to give you hot water and and of course a few toilets but quite basic accommodation really at that place but we, we had to put up with that for several years. When I was promoted up to sergeant I had the choice of going either into, we, we were just across the, the railway tracks from the records office at Ruislip and I could have used the sergeant’s mess there but I elected to take up an option of being billeted with some friends in the area.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: So I finished off being in in billets with these people.
CB: You had to pay them rent.
JRB: Well that was all done automatically through the, through the exchequer, you know.
CB: Right.
JRB: I just had to, I suppose they got, they got sort of postal orders or something like that. They never complained. They always, always seemed to think they’ve been paid alright for it.
CB: They had your ration book.
JRB: They had my ration book yes. They [could draw?] my rations.
CB: So the accommodation for you -
JRB: ‘Cause you see in, in, when you were in RAF billets in the camp you didn’t need ration books anyway. They just -
CB: No.
JRB: You just had a cookhouse.
RB: Were you always segregated in the accommodation?
JRB: Well, eh?
RB: Were you always segregated? I mean, in your hut there would only be radar people or would there be other RAF personnel as well?
JRB: No. Just reckon that we, we were all working together in the radar.
RB: So you were all in the same boat.
JRB: Yeah all -
CB: What was the unit called? MU was it?
JRB: 4 MU.
CB: 4 MU. Yeah.
JRB: 4 MU. 4 MU at Ruislip.
CB: And where did you eat in the daytime?
JRB: We had a little cookhouse and meals were, meals were done there. And we had a NAAFI. Again, just sort of temporary. I think the NAAFI was just a, like a wooden hut but we were only a very small unit altogether you see. So that’s about what I -
CB: Good. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: Now yours was mobile radar but the whole concept was based on the original chain radar. So how did that work Roy?
JRB: Well the -
CB: And where was it?
JRB: The British aircraft carried a special piece of equipment which would send out a signal when, when it, when the initial pulse from the transmitter reached the aircraft it triggered this equipment in the aircraft which would send a, a varying signal back and if the, if the echo on the CRDF was pulsing they would know it was, it was this IFF responding.
CB: So what was IFF? Identification -
JRB: Identification Friend or Foe.
CB: Right.
JRB: IFF. So if it was a British aircraft it would be, it would enable it to send out a signal which would cause the echo on the tube to vary and that’s why they would know that it was a friendly.
CB: So where were the chain radar stations?
JRB: Where were the chain stations? Well they were all along the coast. They were at Pevensey. Isle of Wight. You name it there was a whole string of them all along the coast. Every so many miles apart. I can’t tell you -
CB: And what was the purpose of the chain system?
JRB: The purpose was virtually to detect incoming raids. ‘Cause you see there, there were various systems. They realised, when war was pretty imminent they realised that we’d no way of detecting incoming bombers until they were right overhead and they tried various systems. One of them was based on the sound of the aircraft engine. They built, they built a few of these big concrete dishes supposed to pick up the sound of an engine and amplify it and give warning in that way but of course that didn’t work awfully well at all and the principal of radar was well known because it had been used, it had been, been experimented with before the war and one of its uses that they foresaw was that they would be able to measure distance to planets and so on because the same, the same theory applies. If you, if you send out a radio pulse it becomes reflected from anything it hits so if you, if you directed it towards the solar system you could, by measuring the time lapse and converting it from the well known formula of the speed of electromagnetic waves and time you could, you could work out the distance so the scientists of the day were experimenting with that sort of thing and it was just that Watson Watt seemed to get the credit for it but I think that the principal was already known before that and I have always believed that the Germans had quite good radar equipment although we always claimed it was a British invention and it was, it was a big saviour to us. Which, no doubt, it did help a great deal in the Battle of Britain but its main reason for its success was the fact that with our coastline we could form a chain of stations which would detect incoming aircraft. Now the Germans were at a disadvantage because they had such a long and dispersed coastline that they couldn’t very well cover it anyway but I’ve always had in my mind that the Germans knew quite a bit about radar and in fact do you remember we sent over a party, RAF, an RAF flight sergeant I think in charge of it. A secret landing on the French coast to capture equipment from a German station and I’ve no doubt at all that the Germans knew quite a bit more about radar than what we would admit. We were always, always, always claiming that it was an entirely British invention but it was, I think it was common knowledge in the scientific world that a radio transmission would be reflected by a solid object.
CB: What did you do after the war? You were demobbed in ’47 so what did you then do?
JRB: I came back here. My dad had carried on with his little smallholding business all during the war years and I came back fully intending to take over because he was retirement age and becoming less able to do the work and I thought that would be my future which it was for quite a few years wasn’t it Ray? When you were born it was.
RB: About, about ten years wasn’t it?
JRB: About ten years I was, I was running that.
RB: I think it was a combination of -
JRB: And we -
RB: Of cheap imports and fuel prices.
JRB: Yeah. We were, we were producing well a very nice orchard in those days which is now defunct and greenhouses and we were making our living from that. I got married just after the end of the war and my wife came. She was a girl from London but she came up here and threw her lot in with, with me helping on the smallholding and that’s what we did for, as Ray says, about ten years and then there was a time when prices were very bad for produce and unless you’d a lot of capital to develop in a big way the small, the small units were beginning to get faded out. You know, they were getting superseded and I think it was when, we used to sell our produce on the market at Preston you see. Well you could go, you could go and set up your stall on Preston Market and sell your own produce but that all seemed to fade away didn’t it Ray? You know I don’t think they have that your way now do they?
RB: I think supermarkets really -
JRB: And supermarkets.
RB: The nail in the coffin weren’t they?
JRB: Supermarkets were beginning to come along and of course they were only interested in making contracts with the, with the big producers and it just got it wasn’t really a viable thing and of course with having had my wartime experience and knowledge of radio I applied to -
RB: The civil service. Barton Hall.
JRB: I think, there was an air traffic control centre just outside Preston just on the A6 going north from Preston called Barton, Barton Hall and that was, it, there was a Met section and what do you call it Ray? A meteorological section.
RB: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JRB: And there was a civilian section which was connected with Manchester Airport and that was, it had an airline for civilian aircraft coming down from Scotland into Manchester and that was like a first contact point this, this civilian air traffic control and also running alongside it more or less the RAF had got a emergency system. The idea being that we did twenty four hour coverage and but we had what in those days was considered to be state of the art technology which enabled us to position accurately an aircraft anywhere over the north of England virtually which was called auto triangulation. Now the idea being that we had, of course, remember this was entirely before the days of the, of the satellites and the the navigation that they’ve got today. We had a selection of RAF airfields in the area. Woodvale, Bishop’s, what were it? Bishops Court Northern Ireland, one on the Isle of Man, another up on the Cumbrian coast and one or two further inland over the Pennine areas and with this equipment which was put in by Standard Telephones we could get a position from each of these, each of these RAF stations could give you the bearing of on aircraft.
CB: They could triangulate it.
JRB: They could triangulate it by, we had this big, big screen with the map of the area on it and the position of each of our forward relay stations as we called them and if an aircraft, it was, it was designed specifically for aircraft in distress, civilian or RAF and when an aircraft transmitted on the international distress frequency it would draw traces from the various stations on our big map and a cross, well it was never a perfect cross it was always a little bit ambiguous but roughly call it, they called it a cocked hat. It would form a little, maybe like a little five sided area of probability so that you could say, you could, you could call the pilot up again on a forward relay station. You see all this, we’d got land lines, GPO lines to each of these stations so our controller could use, well, say for instance valley in the isle, in the -
CB: Anglesey.
JRB: Anglesey was one of them. We could use their transmitter if the aircraft was in that area.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: Or we could use one of the other transmitters, speak over the landline to that local transmitter and of course you’d get a better signal than if it was coming all the way from Preston and, and we could give him, give him his position pretty accurately and we could say, you know, ask the nature of his emergency and say well fly such and such a vector to such and such an airfield you see and direct him to try and get down.
CB: This is because you were using a big planned position indicator with a map on it aren’t you?
JRB: Yeah.
CB: And when he squawks then the line comes out.
JRB: We used, you know the television, the early television projector sets? They had a little, a little tube which would project on to a bigger screen hadn’t they? Not very distinct I would always thought but anyway we used those same -
CB: Same principal.
JRB: Those same tubes to project on to this big map that we had on our control desk and so it worked very well that did but we, we had to run on it on a watch system because it was covering the twenty four hours.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: And it was the emergency service you see.
CB: So what were you doing there?
JRB: I was maintaining all the equipment.
CB: Right.
JRB: At the Preston end.
CB: Now, you were, you during that period you trans -
JRB: You see, we had to, over our land line we could talk to the people at, at each station and if the, if we suspected that their signals were not quite right we’d have to call them to go and have a look at their equipment on the airfield and check and of course we, we used to have the authority over them to call them out if necessary for that sort of thing but it was quite a, quite a good system really but of course the sat nav type thing has entirely put that into the history books hasn’t it now?
CB: Yeah.
JRB: You’ll have heard of the RAF equipments called CADF and CRDF. Well they were installed on the airfields and each control tower if the, if the aircraft in his area called up his own station could give him his bearing to fly to the station but it couldn’t give him how many miles away it was or anything like that so this would give him a fixed position. So we used to have, thankfully we didn’t have a lot of emergencies, true emergencies but we used to do a lot of test, tests with aircraft in the area. So call, call up on the emergency channel and just check that everything was in order you know. It worked very well I thought.
CB: Now that was a transition. During that period you were, the technology was moving from valves to printed circuits. Well to -
JRB: Only just. This equipment -
CB: Transistors was what I meant to say.
JRB: This equipment was still on valves.
CB: Was it?
JRB: But -
CB: So we’re talking about the fifties and the sixties are we?
JRB: A friend, a friend of mine who served with me in the RAF after the war, this is Terry Parnell, he got a job at Standard Telephones and he, the two direction finding equipment that I mentioned CADF and CRDF they were in use by the RAF using the valve technology and I believe he converted it and brought out the transistorised versions of it and that worked alright for quite a long time.
CB: So when did you retire?
JRB: When did I retire?
RB: Well there was, there was another stage in your career when Barton Hall closed down in the early 70s. You went to Sealand didn’t you and you were working for the civil service at the, on laser, laser guided things.
JRB: Oh that was later on wasn’t it? Yes, of course.
RB: After Barton Hall closed down. So you actually retired from the laser -
JRB: Originally –
RB: Thing.
JRB: Originally we had five control centres. There was Preston, Barton Hall, Uxbridge and one up near the Scottish borders somewhere wasn’t there? Anyway there were about five, five areas. Well gradually they combined them. We took over the Yorkshire stations as well as our western stations and Uxbridge took over from somebody else so it was centralised from five to about three and then eventually it was centralised all on Uxbridge so of course the Barton Hall equipment was superfluous as regards this auto triangulation system. It was all being done collectively through Uxbridge.
RB: That’s when you were transferred to Sealand.
JRB: And that’s when, that’s when I transferred to Sealand which as you know is on, near Chester and I worked there until the end of the war er till the end of the, of my service.
CB: Which was 19 -
JRB: To my retirement and -
CB: 75 was it? 1970’s
RB: ‘85.
JRB: Sixty five wasn’t I?
RB: Yeah but ’85 you were sixty five.
CB: 1985
JRB: Yes I retired at sixty five and the last bit of my time there I was on, 30 MU at Sealand was a big RAF station. It had been a wartime flying station.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: And it became a central maintenance unit for airborne radio for the RAF. Most of the, most of the stations, if they had faulty equipment it would be sent to Sealand to be sorted out at that one place you see instead of each station doing their own repair work.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: It would come to a sensible point which was Sealand. So I worked on that for several years and then the Cossor’s, not Cossor’s, Ferranti’s. Ferranti’s of Edinburgh, they developed a laser equipment.
CB: At Sealand.
JRB: Now laser as you probably know is quite similar to ordinary radar but it’s using a different part of the spectrum.
CB: Infra-red.
JRB: It’s using infra-red and they, I don’t know whether it’s still in use but they fitted it in the Jaguars and I think in the new, the new fighter that replaced, well it was the Jaguar wasn’t it but I can’t remember what that was called but anyway but that was known as, I’m just trying to remember the [pause] Oh mark, laser ranger and marked target seeker. Now that had two purposes. From an aircraft it could, it could detect and range on a target or alternatively somebody on the ground, hopefully a little squaddie with a pack set, could direct this laser on to a bridge say that he wanted eliminating and that would be detected by the aircraft who could then range on that specific target you see so that’s why they called it the marked target seeker. So I worked on that which was a new technology again altogether using, as you said, infra-red instead of -
CB: To illuminate the target.
JRB: Radio waves. And I believe they used that in the Shetlands.
RB: The Falklands.
CB: In the Falklands war.
JRB: In the Falklands. Sorry. In the Falklands and one or two incidents since I believe but I don’t know whether it’s still, you see this, this is, we’re going back now what thirty years Ray. Something like that.
RB: Well yeah it was before Kit was born. Kit’s thirty at the end of this month.
JRB: Yeah.
RB: That’s my son, dad’s grandson.
JRB: Yes. That’s right.
RB: He’s thirty in a few weeks.
JRB: So presumably that equipment is now out of date anyway.
CB: Well just more sophisticated isn’t it?
JRB: It was the start of the, start of the laser usage for this purpose.
CB: Yes. Right. Excellent.
JRB: And then of course that was what I worked on right up to the end of my civil -
RB: Until you retired.
JRB: Service type of thing.
CB: So how many years did you do in the civil service? About thirty I suppose.
JRB: Something like that.
CB: ‘55 to ’85.
JRB: Something like that. Yeah. At, I was up at Barton Hall for quite a number of years wasn’t I Ray and then at Sealand again.
RB: Yeah.
JRB: About thirty years I suppose. Yeah.
CB: Right. We’re stopping there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: As a final point Roy what was the most memorable point about your service in the RAF?
JRB: In the RAF.
[pause]
JRB: I don’t know. It’s hard to say really.
[pause]
CB: Ok. What about in, in, when you, in civilian life? Was there a memorable part of your activities when you became a civil servant with radar, laser and so on?
JRB: No. There was nothing very exciting about it I’m afraid. It was just, just the same humdrum stuff.
CB: And what was your interests in the background in all that time? Were you keen on sport or some other -?
JRB: Never been much of a sportsman but I think, would you say our, our overseas holiday trips? That sort of -?
RB: Yeah. Well you went on foreign language courses didn’t you and did evening schools in various things.
JRB: Yes.
RB: Did you do a maths course? What was that -
JRB: No. I didn’t do a maths course.
RB: You didn’t do maths. Some, some
JRB: You see Peter, Peter -
RB: Sort of, was it a City and Guilds course you did? Something in -
JRB: Yes. Well that was more to do with my service life wasn’t it? The City and Guilds. It was qualification for -
RB: You did sort of later, qualifications in later life didn’t you?
JRB: Yes.
RB: And did you do Italian courses? And French.
JRB: Well I did one or two study courses. Yeah.
CB: Good. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: Just clarifying the mini blitz because clearly that was a memorable thing for you. You had to react quickly did you to this situation and so was this a particularly memorable event? The Meershum.
JRB: Yes it was because it was a sudden request that we got and we had to pull the stops out and design a modification to the equipment and get it, get it out to the airfields. We’d quite a hectic time going around and installing it at the various -
CB: At the CH stations.
JRB: Fields.
CB: Was it at airfields or CH stations?
JRB: It was at CH stations.
CB: Right. Thanks.
RB: That the [unclear?] isn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
JRB: Have you got it there?
CB: How long did it take you to do this? Literally a weekend or was it weeks?
JRB: Literally, literally just over a weekend.
CB: Amazing.
JRB: We were going all over the place, split up into different fitting parties and took one, one equipment to each station you see and set it up. So we landed down at Pevensey and that was the one that I was most involved in and the rest of our company did likewise. We were all separate, separate little fitting parties going along the various -
CB: You went by road -
JRB: Stations.
CB: I presume.
JRB: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: Yes. They laid transport on for us and of course we went, went straight to these stations.
CB: Good.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with James Burdin
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-06
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:51:55 audio recording
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABurdinJR170206
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
James Burdin went at Hutton Grammar School and worked on radio repair and sales. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force but had to wait and joined the Local Defence Volunteers instead. He did some rifle practice, general infantry training and patrols. James had his initial training at Blackpool where the winter gardens had been converted into a Morse school. Owing his background in radio, he later went to work on radar: he discusses his postings at different training establishments and provides details of radar technical advances, installation, modify and repair, vulnerability and equipment mobility. James served in mobile equipment units in Algeria (Operation Torch), Tunisia, Egypt, Normandy (D-Day landings), crossing of the Rhine, Netherlands (Operation Market Garden), Mauthausen camp (Operation Meerschaum). Discusses the end of the war, continuing to work at 4 Maintenance Unit at RAF Ruislip developing equipment, components and technologies. He then worked at the Technical Research Establishment until demobilised in 1947.
After an unsuccessful attempt to run his family business, he applied for the civil service and worked until 1985 on radar development, auto triangulation, Cathode-Ray Direction Finder, Identification Friend or Foe, infrared devices, laser and chain radar stations.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Lancashire
England--Blackpool
Algeria
Austria
Austria--Mauthausen
Egypt
France
Germany
Rhine River
Netherlands
Netherlands--Arnhem
Tunisia
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
civil defence
demobilisation
Gneisenau
Home Guard
military living conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
radar
RAF Bircham Newton
RAF Ruislip
recruitment
sanitation
Scharnhorst
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/491/8377/AClarkeE150817.1.mp3
8d1fa9fcebb570507c9570e843139bb8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Clarke, Eric
E Clarke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Clarke, E
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Concerns Eric Clarke (1051928 Royal Air Force). He served as a wireless operator / air gunner with 49 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview and two photographs.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Eric Clarke and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Eric, it’s lovely to see you this morning and as you know I want to talk to you on behalf of the Bomber Command, International Bomber Command Memorial Centre. My name’s Annie Moody. We’ve met before lots of times and I’m interviewing Eric where he lives at Carcroft and it’s Monday the 17th of August 2015. So, Eric where shall we start? Can we start by, just tell me a little bit about where you were born and your childhood?
EC: It so happens the first article I did was in the days of, not computer, typewriters.
AM: Yes.
EC: Typewriters. Not a computer. And used to get a sheet of foolscap and my little portable typewriter and I am doing now and then I started. My father died when I was only eight. Now, that is the first line, first page of the article that I have done in recent years and since the impact of the computer. Are you alright so far?
AM: Alright so far. So your dad, your father, died when you were eight.
EC: Yeah. Right, well, that’s interesting. Where was I born? I was born here and here I am.
AM: In Doncaster. In Carcroft.
EC: Go on.
AM: Were you born in Carcroft?
EC: Go on.
AM: Doncaster.
EC: You’ve got a main road called Owston Road. Did you go to the top of the hill? Well, anyway this building is on the edge of a fairly large, which was for a long time, a colliery housing estate built by the, at that time it was, all around here there’s bore holes of some sort. Here, top of the hill, woodlands when you come to the woodlands and eventually they got one bore hole about three, four hundred yards along the lane and there was still a little water in a hollow like that and then the bottom of the hollow where they dug and they left it and over the years it’s been, it’s been called Witches Hollow and all sorts of things. Of course it’s the coaching lane as you go out and you wind around and it goes a little hollow like that and at the bottom of the well, or what do you call it? What’s the –
AM: Yeah. The well -
EC: Well.
AM: The well.
EC: And then down to the main [Aspen?] Road. The A15. Now, this is where I [] looking at the wall, my documentation, you know.
AM: Don’t worry about it. Where did you go to school, Eric?
EC: Here. Let me -
AM: Go on.
EC: Explain my birth ‘cause that’s important. Where we are, oh dear, just give me a minute. Anyway, the Owston Road which is the edge of the colliery housing estate.
AM: Right.
EC: And this Owston Road and then then there’s [Dereham New Street]. Colliery housing goes from two [102 all back?] then the next street, the last one on the estate is Paxton Avenue. That, coming down lower down [used to be] Carcroft, where the post office is. The shops have been developed and I was born and [black jack?] blamed this, it’s something to do with being a hundred and two. I’ve jumped a few years.
AM: Don’t worry.
EC: It’s important. Let me get it properly.
AM: It’s all good stuff.
EC: Right. I wasn’t born here but I lived here ten years old. So, we’ll start from there. I was born at another colliery estate only two miles down the road. Bentley Colliery. It has a history because of an explosion with thirty one killed over the years. Now, a private, a Nottingham, a Nottingham private colliery company called Barber Walker and Company sank a deep mine. They came from Nottingham where they had several mines but they were shallow mines. They came to South Yorkshire for the deep coal mines and my, I’ve got to go back to my father and mother are both Nottingham bred but first of all to my father, see I’ve made a chart that big with the whole family.
AM: With the family, a family tree on it.
EC: Yes. Chart. Oh yes it is my family tree. Well, I’m going back to 1730 and my ancestors, male ancestors all or most of them worked on the land in Chicheley Hall. Have you heard of that?
AM: Chicheley Hall. Yes I have.
EC: A very famous house and one reputation is that he was Lord Admiral on that. Admiral Lord Beatty. Admiral Lord Beatty.
AM: Admiral Lord Beatty.
EC: A famous World War One man. Now he had Chicheley Hall and a massive estate and all my ancestors either worked on the land or in the big house itself. The Hall. From footmen and so on. Right. And the women also on the land and the usual agricultural workers of those days. Right. We’re trying to get along quicker. A little more quickly. In the early 1800s they started a migration north to Northamptonshire and Nottinghamshire and finally they came to Nottingham where women went in these factories as part of the, what do you call it the –
AM: Industrialisation.
EC: You can go to the top of the class on Monday. You’re a knockout.
AM: Thank you.
EC: Yes, and my father’s, I think he was a land man anyway but there is one man who didn’t migrate to Nottingham and he was in the army in World War One and got a military medal and he’s buried somewhere in [Chicheley?] Abbey and he’s there again and I built up this -
AM: Your family tree.
EC: They, there was no computer and there were no, I had to do all this on those –
AM: Right.
EC: [I have brochures on this] why I mentioned the estate Carcroft here. That’s where I spent the first ten years of my life. Well my mother and father migrated to South Yorkshire and my father went to Bentley Colliery and we occupied a colliery house. 75 Balfour Road, Bentley. Yeah. I was born there on the 13th of April 1913. Am I reading it right?
AM: Yeah. Yes. You’re a hundred and two so 1913.
EC: [Three weeks’ time.]
AM: Where did you go to school Eric?
EC: Here.
AM: In –
EC: At [?]. My father died when I was only eight. I shall have to move on quicker. It’s taking all this time to explain the first sentence.
AM: That’s ok.
EC: I’m being critical again you know.
AM: It sets the context Eric.
EC: I had a brother three years older than me and he said I was a prickly little sod [laughs] There you go.
AM: When, how old were you when you left school?
EC: Ten.
AM: You were ten.
EC: Ten. Right that’s why this story is a bit difficult.
AM: Right.
EC: The next, my father died. He was only thirty one. He had cancer and he was riddled and in those days there was no pension. No money, no support and you died with what you put in your pockets and all my mother’s family on my mother’s side, it was big family, about five six brothers. However they migrated with Barber Walker Company, brought all the miners to Bentley and Carcroft [?] and as I was born at 75 Balfour Road. Then, as I was born my mother became pregnant again quite quickly and we had, I had a sister, Freda born August 22nd 1914 and this house was only two bedroom, so, and my mother, the roving type anyway she, in no time at all we got a private house on the A15 only two miles from here and he went, carried on and from that moment from that moment of moving I gather my father started to go down and he didn’t go to work. He’d gone. Right, so no pension, no money, started looking around. My mother was very busy, hardworking, all the rest of it, ‘Take that shirt off,’ ‘cause, you know, she was you couldn’t move without her –
AM: Without her washing -
EC: Inspecting me. And Freda was born at the same house and then, as I was saying, there was no money. There was nothing. So the first thing my mother thought well I’ll get back to my roots and dad’s roots and get some help [from home] and start again. She started and stopped because my mother was very unsettled and [couldn’t be nice to anyone.] A hard working person anyway and she, this is rather strange right, she came back over here to start sorting things out she easily, she had a brother who had a motorbike and he fetched her to go to Nottingham and when she was there one time she bumped into [a former?], went on the back of the motorbike and in fact she was [only with him anyway] and it happened that she went to school in Nottingham.
AM: Is that the clock?
1629
EC: It [?] now and again and gives you the right time but not the others.
AM: Ok. Just coming back to school, you said -
EC: Yes.
AM: You left school at ten years old.
EC: Yes. I’ll try to go on to that now. Sorry. She met this, on a trip to Nottingham she met, bumped into a [mate?] from the Nottinghamshire school she used to know. [He was ? anyway] 1914 and he was in her same plight. He was a widower and he’d got four children. Unfortunately, didn’t know then he got two who were backwards, which we called lack of learning. Two very bright children.
AM: Two not. Yeah.
EC: And my mother had got three. Anyway, they came together like, like here was a man who met all her needs. Never mind [how or what?]. He was a miner and so they married and in no time at all apparently they met [only?] two or three months she was there and she was pregnant and again in no time at all upped sticks and here we are. We got to this Bentley Colliery. [I’m trying to remember]
AM: Don’t worry ‘cause I want to get to where you left school and then what happened between then and joining the RAF.
EC: Right ok. They was married anyway and [a child on the] way and we came from Bentley and got married here. Bullcroft Colliery.
AM: Yeah.
EC: That’s the colliery for this area.
AM: Ok.
EC: Bullcroft.
AM: Yeah.
EC: It’s Barber Walker and Company. [pause] And I went to Carcroft School which was at the bottom of the street. One of them modern schools and it was opened the same year as my birth day. I was as old as the school and in fact I attended the anniv -
AM: Anniversary.
EC: Yes, and my name’s on a brass plate outside the school. So that was the start of the bit getting along Eric. Right, and then when I got to school –
AM: What did you do when you left, did you take your school certificate?
EC: Not in those days.
AM: No. What did you do when you left school then?
EC: Right. Right. I was at Carcroft school, they married, my mother and father were still having children and in no time at all from a family of four we, a family of nine.
AM: Nine.
EC: [?] on the chart the results show how it was and we moved here nineteen whatever, I think we moved here in 1910. We did the ordinary school. They did have, you sat for grammar school.
AM: Yes.
EC: And in those days my father who, well you can imagine the terrible family conditions. It was terrible. They never found Eric anywhere because he was crouching under the table in the bedroom upstairs out of the way. But I was doing well at school, quite bright, I can’t remember so much of it [?] skip this anyway. My father, my stepfather was violent. My mother was as violent and so you can imagine how they got on except have children and in no time at all they’d got five. Well, [?] in those days the bright boys in the class were selected to sit for the West Riding County Council for the grammar school at Doncaster.
AM: Ok
EC: Not Very big and there was only a few from this schools because this local government wise was under the administration of the West Riding County Council.
AM: Yes.
EC: And so to cut that story short there was violence and all sorts and I was always missing upstairs doing, trying to do homework of a sort and then the result of all that was that when I was fourteen oh I was chosen to sit for the [?] but my stepfather [?] in the examination, ‘We can’t afford to send you to grammar school,’ and that was -
AM: So you didn’t get to go.
EC: I didn’t go and I was fourteen and on about the 10th of May, something like that I got a bike in those days and it’s from the house to the office in Doncaster. Coming up to fourteen my mother said, ‘You’re not going down the pit. Here write the application for that job, office boy in Doncaster.’ ‘Yes mum.’ Right. I started working in Doncaster as a fourteen year old boy with ten shillings a week.
AM: Ten shillings.
EC: Ten shillings a week and it so happened that it was a family firm. A World War One family but it was a man with five sons. So I started there. I mentioned the five sons because there was no hope of –
AM: Progression.
EC: Reaching forward but at the same time there was no time [for boys going to] grammar school. So I was there plodding away at this and couldn’t get up the ladder and in a way that was [?] office boy, rent collector, all sort of duties [I had a knowledge of] Doncaster because I was visiting solicitors and so forth all at close knit city centre and my firm had dealings with them all.
AM: Yeah.
EC: I was [giving out] ten to thirty letters delivering around town. Anyway, there was no real progression except the ordinary one. Ten shillings a week. One year I got twelve and six. One year I got fifteen. And progress there and I jumped to it and that was all I did from leaving school was work at Ernest Woodman and Sons, 15 Young Street, Doncaster.
AM: Ok.
EC: And very well experienced in Doncaster. Legal, which attracted me. Legal World. Solicitors.
AM: Yes.
EC: Accountants and two other debt collectors. Well you can imagine what the debt collectors were like immediately after the war.
AM: Ahum.
EC: And 1926 strike and so here we go. My mother, hot tempered, she got, she tried to get me away from my stepfather. I was a thorn in his side somehow. I think it was because his children were not as bright as my mother’s so, hang on a second. Hang on.
AM: Do you want me to switch it off? Ok.
EC: This article that you’ve seen, it’s a bit if what I’m doing at the moment. Can you help?
AM: But they want to hear your voice. That’s the thing. We want your voice telling us.
EC: And what a voice at this moment.
AM: Absolutely. So you’ve worked in Doncaster.
EC: Yes.
AM: And you’ve worked there for a number of years
[sound of knocking on the door]
AM: Oh hang on.
[machine pause?]
EC: My mother was always moving on and the family bigger house, bigger house, family, bigger house. Job’s no good to you. Leave the job. Anyway, so we went from Bullcroft Colliery and then the family was enlarging and the house was not big enough for the family. Looking around and we finished up at Woodlands on the Great North Road.
AM: Ok.
EC: Have you been there?
AM: No. I don’t know it.
EC: Well it’s the A1 M.
AM: Yes.
EC: The end A1 M [came our?] house. We moved out, we finished up, finally we moved to Woodlands of course from the age of ten to forty, not forty.
AM: Fourteen.
EC: 1940.
AM: Oh right 1940.
EC: We finished up at Woodlands in a four or five roomed house and got transferred to Brodsworth Colliery because he was cricketer, first class and of course the collieries if you played cricket up there with the nobs you got a job and that’s how it worked. You got a job but it so happens he was lazy and they were clashing all the time and the eldest of this family of ten or more was my brother George and he was similar. He was like [our mother?] and he actually, the two of them fought and knocking the living daylights out of each other and then there was another move and we finished up at Woodland. Did you come by The Highwayman?
AM: I can’t remember.
EC: Come by it at the bottom.
AM: Oh yes. Yes.
EC: Yes. Well the council houses on [the edge of the next] street right down there tacked on to the Brodsworth, so we got to this, how can I put it [pause] well I was, because I was think, I was a good scholar I think and I, with reading and so on and my teacher got me to stand up in class and read right and there was something about wanting to speak because my teacher was a World War One veteran, a tank captain and a captain of a tank as well as a captain by rank. Yeah.
AM: Right.
EC: And I remember once I wanted to do it, do things apparently I was good at. I could stand up, speak well and the boys you know were deep in dialect. I wasn’t. I was avoiding it like the plague. Even at that age. I don’t know why. And –
AM: You’ve told me about working for that family firm.
EC: Yes.
AM: And you’ve told me about doing the debt collecting. What if we move on a little bit what, how did you come to join the RAF?
EC: Well, before then I I married the first girl who winked at me and only had the one girlfriend and we were married seventy years anyway.
AM: You were.
EC: So your question again was?
AM: So you’ve started work and you’ve got married. What made you, when we get to -
EC: Right.
AM: The beginning of the war what made you join the RAF?
EC: Right. That’s, that’s answered as well, in the book, quite clearly. When we were younger, the 1930s, so on early mid-30s, Finningley became an RAF aerodrome and we, I was going around town and so on I was so used to seeing the Hampdens and the earlier ones and also my ten years to fourteen years was a period of being with the family. I liked to go back home at that age I couldn’t stay away and my mum wanted my money.
AM: Yeah.
EC: Only ten bob.
AM: Yeah.
EC: So I decided, I became very interested and my mother said, ‘better not going down the mine.’
AM: That’s not going down the pit.
EC: Not going down the pit and so on and so on and it was that really and my associate in Doncaster, the people. My squadron for instance, 49 squadron were at Finningley.
AM: They were at Finningley.
EC: Finningley.
AM: But can you, can you remember when you actually went to join up and then what the training was like? What year did you join up, Eric?
EC: I joined up, well that, [I’m not sure about] this really, war was imminent.
AM: Yeah.
EC: We all knew that and all knew, some were joining up you know and getting out of the mines.
AM: Yeah.
EC: Some of the younger ones. However, I wanted to, I decided I’m going to fly. That’s all.
AM: Yeah.
EC: Except I’d seen the boys in blue in Doncaster going into the offices, getting, bringing their wives and getting accommodation and all that and it very gradually became a big RAF station and it also became an Operational Training Unit. Operational Training Unit.
AM: Yes.
EC: And then a small squadron moved in and an awful lot of [? moved in]. In 1939 war was declared and there were Whitley’s which were different, a twin engine bomber.
AM: Yeah.
EC: And Hampdens. Twin engine medium bomber sort of thing. Anyway, I got my brother to take me on his motorbike pillion and, to Sheffield which was a local recruiting office for the whole of South Yorkshire really and I went through the routine and passed one way or another although I did have some ear trouble but nothing to worry about and I was, I wanted to be a navigator. I knew damn all about navigation except I’d become interested in it in my classroom with this captain.
AM: So were you accepted as a navigator?
EC: No. No.
AM: No.
EC: That was it because I hadn’t got a school certificate as you say. I didn’t take it and I hadn’t got it so there was no way. They did not employ grammar school, only grammar school boys at least got in to the navigation.
AM: Ok.
EC: But they offered me wireless operator/navigator and I, yes, yes now we’re in. So I went through the various routines and I get the call and reported, report to Sheffield for a medical examination for air crew. [?] air crew. However, [pause] then they sent me, they said that they would send me home with papers. I was accepted and registered as aircraftsman second class. I was in the air force. And that would be August [1913 the year war] and I went back, back home and I went back to my job and got a shock because I’d already asked my firm could I, is it alright if I, and I showed them the invitation. Medical and so on so yeah but when I got back which was more or less a weeks leave I went back to [primarily] carry on working until I was called, I got a shock. They’d set on somebody in my place who, I understood, I didn’t know it at the time but I was told was exempt.
AM: Ok.
EC: So he could do the job I’d been doing and that was the way it was so I was sent home and that happened twice. I was called up. Anyway, I met a local council not many hours away from here, not now, I met him, he was the treasurer, the chairman of the Labour party’s son. Talking about nineteen and he’d become exempt because he was, he’d qualified, not quite as an accountant.
AM: Right.
EC: But in no time at all war was declared and he was treasurer of the council. Right then, he said ‘What are you doing?’ And I explained briefly and, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘We’re setting on some temporary staff here and if you’re interested you know the district, you know everything and everybody about us more or less so I got a fortnight’s and it so happens I was working then two shilling a week lower than I was paid earlier.
AM: But at Doncaster council. At the council.
EC: No.
AM: No.
EC: No. Oh Adwick.
AM: Oh.
EC: I was, Adwick le Street Urban District Council.
AM: Right.
EC: On April 1st 1915 Adwick, Adwick Council became an urban district.
AM: Right. So you worked for your local urban district council.
EC: So I moved my first, into local government, again its charted and that. Yeah, so from April the 1st 1915 it was an urban district council and [sent to work and it was?] in those days.
AM: Right.
EC: [And often the?] rent collection and so on their offices and all graded and whatnot. [Presumably]
AM: So, so you worked there and then, and then at point did you get your call up to go for training?
EC: Yes. I suddenly got papers through and the call and I had to go to Padgate which was near Warrington. And it was RAF centre of sorts for World War Two and I was issued with a uniform and then blow me they lined up the squadrons, everybody going to the squadrons in there and incidentally I was duly qualified. I had taken to that so I know that. Anyway, the next thing you know and they gave me a railway warrant home. Said you’ll be called by an RAF unit as soon as you’re employable. So I’m back home.
AM: Back home again.
EC: And I went back to [Wolf Lane] the treasurer of the council then and suggested we were doing emergency war measures which meant visiting the council houses, various establishments in the urban district which I knew, you know. I knew every yard. Anyway, that eventually I got the actual call up and again I had to go to Padgate. I think it was there. I’m not sure. And we were lined up one morning and half of us were given railway warrants and we went to Blackpool and I was in the Royal Air Force. Air crew. Now, we should have gone on entering the RAF to an ITW, Initial Training Wing that’s where they [?] speaking get you off the street. Put your feet together, angled at forty five degrees and all that.
AM: And start marching.
EC: From scratch. But not me because I’d already become [duly conscious.] It’s all this detail. Lovely detail really and with one other chappie went to Sheffield and there was procedures and from there I was posted, forgotten that little bit there, where was it? Operational Training Unit.
AM: Up to an Operational Training Unit.
EC: Yes. How we got there I don’t know.
AM: Don’t worry. So what was that like?
EC: Anyway, I went straight on to the, oh what was it? Chipping Norton down south OTUs and there was one there, south of Oxford. Its three letter anyway [pause] anyway I did all the basics ITU and aircrew and posting again home again I think two or three days. Then posted. I went to, about a dozen of us were posted to Scampton and you know all about that.
AM: I do.
EC: I served fourteen months there. At a time when, [you don’t mind] I went straight on to the squadron and then it’s all in the book.
AM: Ok.
EC: All in the logbook.
AM: So you joined 49 squadron. Can you remember crewing up and joining up with the rest of your crew. With your pilot and -
EC: No. I didn’t get that far.
AM: Oh right.
EC: What happened was the ITU and Blackpool were just doing nothing but training. Some people didn’t need training. Straight to squadron or something and I did fly in the ITU on the, [pause] from Blackpool we went by troop train in dead of night because of an air raid. From Blackpool down to Wales down to Bristol where we were in the [?] and everything, no rations, no nothing, six seats a side, no gangway, no nothing and then in the morning we arrived at Yatesbury. That’s on the Bath Road.
AM: Yes.
EC: And that’s where the real work starts. We were just another, well it seemed like there was only a couple of hundred of us but it wasn’t. Not quite that. Very nearly, and that was a first and basic training for air crew. Now in our case that area as big as this was aircraft navigation, no that was further on I think. That unit concentrated on training navigators. Yatesbury was wireless and basics. Pilots, they did their training as pilots and then we started getting together as as crews but not necessarily staying together.
AM: Right.
EC: But putting you, you, you, right, ‘Take M for Mother on a trip, test,’ so on and that was it at any stage a lot of flying. The book tells it all. Have you’ve seen it?
AM: No. I’ll have a look at your logbook afterwards if I may.
EC: You might, well, I’m looking, my son, he used to be a manager, he left and in recent you see I’ve all this is, damaged the brain. You know that. It’s the damage in my brain and that’s why my memory’s gone so I have two brains. One apparently and mainly is normal.
AM: Yes.
EC: But -
AM: You’re doing well Eric.
EC: Yeah. But the other one, anytime soon it will break and I’m in another, the thing was but it’s not permanent.
AM: So, what, what was the wireless operator training like?
EC: Well that was rather intense but first of all it was mainly one track mind. We had to reach, we were, we’d taken over all the ballroom and the big, ballroom, Blackpool front you know, the tower and all the rest of it. Dance halls. There were all tables wired up for blokes. Six in groups of fifty with an acting corporal, a regular corporal, been in the air force since the year dot apparently and then we were two hours [?] and you can imagine it was all regimented at that stage.
AM: Yeah.
EC: You only breathe out when you’re allowed. So that’s it. Right. Test please and you were at trestle tables. Lines of them. Oh and incidentally we had been billeted in Blackpool and all that sort of thing.
AM: Can I stop you for a minute? Do you want -
EC: Yes.
AM: Do you want this tea?
EC: Back to Carcroft School I always remember this captain in the army and tank captain survivor. It on poetry and he got me speaking and reading. ‘Clarke.’ And I’d stand up with my book. Point at it and read. All that sort of thing. And World War One disciplines.
AM: Yes. I’m going to take you back to Yatesbury rather than back to your school. Tell me some more about Yatesbury.
EC: Yatesbury. Yes of course. All we saw were [?] and it was 13th of October.
AM: It’s alright I’m just making sure your tea doesn’t slip.
EC: 13th of October. [?] it’s there.
AM: Tell me a little bit more about Yatesbury.
EC: Oh yes. Yatesbury. We had two, two solid weeks, two solid hours of Morse and our instructor was a retired navy wireless operator.
AM: Ok.
EC: And some people used to say you couldn’t think of anything worse but he was quiet but he was used to, used to thirty words a minute but we got to achieve, we’d never studied Morse. What’s Morse? We were dumb.
AM: Yeah, all new to you.
EC: Yes. What they did people precisely volunteered and in some cases allocated. Even they wanted to go. Like me. I wanted to go so after two hours there was a break and then the acting corporal, the corporal marched out and this is where the journal comes in. Quite a few holiday makers there were in Blackpool at the time saw some smart click click of the air force drill shouting and bawling. 3B3 3 squadron and three wing three squadron and three company and, ‘Clarke,’ ‘928 flight sergeant,’ You caught your last three figures. Mine was 1051928 and you got it’s flight sergeant 928, ‘Take your squad to the park,’ [?] and then we had report back to that certain area in that certain place for the next, which could have been anything from PT, stripping off, in to the baths. I loved that. The baths. I was in charge marching and bathing. Morse. Right up through, ‘Straight through, straight, halt. Stand. Right, space out, space, spread yourselves out. Right. Strip. Get in there. Get in.’
AM: Is this public baths?
EC: Yes.
AM: Yes
EC: And that’s what we did. I’d been delegated to look after them as an acting corporal unpaid and because I had to get out to get them on the go again. Report elsewhere. It might be report to a certain park where the RAF had a PTI, Physical Training Instructor and we had two hours with him. Not at it all the time but some duty other than we had the first two hours get back to Morse at the tower and that was the front. Four times in two hours PTI, break two hours, back. That’s it. Back to Morse again. And to that march left right left right left right all around Blackpool there before this just as an introduction, more or less, to what navigation means?
AM: Yes.
EC: Charts. Do charts and things we’d got. I imagined myself working on a chart.
AM: Yeah. I’m going to let you drink a bit more of your tea.
EC: Yes and then it was high tech training now. How, what wireless sets are made of, you know. We were really into it all. That’s that, that and that but why? It’s there and we [?] Incidentally by the time I got into Blackpool I was twenty six and I was probably standing next to –
AM: An eighteen year old.
EC: An eighteen year old boy who was well away.
AM: You were one of the old men.
EC: I was. I don’t know why but that’s another story.
AM: When did you first go up in and fly in a plane?
EC: Well, at Yatesbury we again this is where the logbook would have come in. From Yatesbury we were warned, six of us, right, at the airfield and we’re going with this sergeant. He takes you. He took six of us out to the airfield. He was doing an exercises anyway. We knew we were going up in the air and we were going to call Blackpool radio station.
AM: Yeah.
EC: And you’re going to make contact and back, and then back to the classroom. See how well we’d done. So it was at Yatesbury and it was probably an hour and a half. We went up in this six seater passenger aircraft and with a sergeant, he’d been in the air force years and he was a technician. So that’s when we first flew. I didn’t fly again then until Finningley and this is again is where the drag occurred and interfered. When final at Yatesbury which had a nasty name did Yatesbury. You know the name given to prisoners you had a bad reputation because it was psych training you know. You couldn’t breathe. Anyway, we were picked out and were queuing up were [all between] get our inoculations and then the next time is railway warrants which are, we two going to the same place. I got used to him. Mahoney. [Finished up?]
AM: How, when did you, after that you went to Finningley. Where did go you after -
EC: Yes.
AM: Yatesbury?
EC: After Yatesbury railway warrants and we thought we were going home or not and we were for a week and then we reported to the squadron.
AM: The squadron. 49 squadron.
EC: 49 Squadron at, no. I jumped. This station south of, south of Oxford I’ve got a memory for stations as well. It’s one –
AM: I don’t know Eric. There’s no -
EC: No. Anyway -
AM: Gary would know but I don’t.
EC: It was an OTU, we were posted to OTU from then for the first time we became flying together.
AM: Right.
EC: Pilot, navigator, sometimes just wireless operator because at that time no aircraft could get airborne without a wireless operator.
AM: Yes.
EC: No RAF could get airborne without a wireless operator and then there were various exercises, flying exercises. In the early part the pilots were doing the circuits and bumps and you had to be, you had to have a wireless operator with him.
AM: What plane, what sort of aircraft were you in?
EC: That was, first time, that was Hampdens.
AM: Hampdens.
EC: Yeah. Ended up in, just a minute, just a minute, this is where, for once in a while I’m lost without my logbook. And we, I arrived at Finningley anyway. I was posted to Finningley.
AM: Yeah.
EC: And it was because I’d been posted but [they don’t know] so they posted me, ‘Where do you live flight sergeant?’ ‘Doncaster.’ ‘Ah right. Finningley.’ And it was Finningley because they couldn’t receive this, they were full up training you see and so I reported to 49 squadron. They were busy flying as an OTU.
AM: Yes.
EC: Operational Training Unit and I just went down to the airfield where there was a crew rooms and outbuildings in between, in between whatever flight programme was on and that, one day that might be navigators which meant pilot, pilot and navigator and wireless operator or it might in between a few circuits and bumps but we were, I was there to get me airborne. I had the temerity to complain. I’m sitting here doing nothing. Nothing to read. No book. No nothing. Anyway, he understood alright. That particular squadron leader eventually did very well right up in Bomber Command. Now then, now -
AM: I’m probably jumping now but when did you do your first operation?
EC: Right. October 13th.
AM: October -
EC: Two minutes past twelve. It was twelve, Midnight. Thirteenth.
AM: This was 1940.
EC: ’40.
AM: Yeah. What was that like Eric? Can you remember it? Well you can remember it.
EC: Yeah. Well I was there, I was there at Finningley and I had to jump a little bit there because this, the squadron commander he said you could do a few rides on the tin. Well the tin was the underside of a Hampden. Underneath -
AM: Right.
EC: You know, where the gun is? No wireless. Just straight, stuck the wireless operator on top with guns and he was a wireless operator on top of the aircraft. So I was there, for air experience. I was in this Hampden. I don’t know if I was doing those cross country and I was just sat in the cockpit and I was getting airborne and that was it. I was not impressed either. I was a little bit of a sergeant major myself I have to admit. A bit, ‘That won’t do.’ Anyway, and then then came the day that Chipping –
AM: Chipping Norton.
EC: No.
AM: Chipping Sudbury.
EC: Oh dear.
AM: No. Oh I don’t know.
EC: Oh I do. I can’t give it you. Ah yes. Oh I can point it to you. I’ve got the book there.
AM: Well never mind because what I want to hear about is your first operation.
EC: First operation. Yes. Well this book. It’s written there perfectly.
AM: Did you get bacon and eggs before you went?
EC: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
[pause]
EC: I can’t move without, I can’t.
AM: So your first operation was on the 12th and 13th of October 1941.
EC: That’s right.
AM: To Auls and Bremen. That’s A U L S and Bremen.
EC: Well, we, it’s all in that report but we actually bombed Huls. H.U.L.S.
AM: Yes, and that was the start of a full tour.
EC: Yeah.
AM: On three different kinds of aircraft.
EC: And they were all, all overcrowded and –
AM: You started off on Hampdens didn’t you?
EC: Yes. Yes.
AM: Let me have a look at the next one. Your next one after that was the 22nd and 23rd of October to Mannheim.
EC: Mann, yes.
AM: Yeah.
EC: And that’s in the, they called it Happy Valley.
AM: Yes. The Ruhr valley.
EC: Yes. That’s right. And here again I was at a loose end and not very happy. I was arriving at Scampton in a crew room and about half of them regulars. One or two were real regulars, went in before the war. [?] flight sergeant who was in before the war, wireless operator and he come to me or called me upstairs and say this is the flying programme and these two ops [that were ops have] just been scrubbed.
AM: Let me look at your -
EC: Now that was, I can’t see it.
AM: What did it actually feel like up in the aircraft Eric?
EC: Well again, mixed feelings. It was no picnic in that undercarriage. They called it the tin. Dreaded it. It was just a cockpit underneath the aircraft with twin Vickers gas operated guns on, like that and you could swing them around and you could strafe or [303?] and then behind me the bomb doors opened like that behind me to the front of the aircraft. Say from, you know, from there to there and they would open and I can’t, well it’s still a case of looking around. The weather we knew nothing about. It was just another aircraft on a training flight. I would listen out carefully. The pilots, mainly it was the pilot and navigator yeah that was the hardest job to do. I realise now.
AM: Yes. There’s another one highlighted here. The 9th and 10th of January to Brest. Mine laying.
EC: Oh yes. From October onwards it was still was the same. You were lucky to get a flight or if you did, in the tin to fill up and now –
AM: Let me look at the, - this is talking about the Bransby Memorial.
EC: Oh yes. And there again I became [this was a Hampden, not this particular one, [pause] there we are, we took off at dusk mainly. Sometimes it was later on and the whole of Scampton is set in the middle of vast farming areas and that’s so and we took off at dusk and it was all a nail-biting time you had to get up because the Hampden was loaded with mines or a particular type of bomb and otherwise it would carry mines and all I know is I sat there looking around and occasionally a tiny light, nothing else, could see the railways and [pause] sorry.
AM: Shall we find?
EC: The navigator was talking a lot -
AM: Yeah.
EC: About -
AM: I’m looking at another one here in February 1942. You went to Bremen, Bremen.
EC: Yes. Bremen.
AM: Bremen.
EC: Yeah. [Should be Berlin?] to military target. Heavily defended. And what I [?] the first one as we, two important things there did at least talk me to otherwise I might not have [?] right I’m looking for a crossing on the coast out crossing the channel there or from Orfordness there over there, that’s where we leave our coast. See. I was looking for that and that was, and then there’s a channel which is when the navigator and pilot had a lot to talk about, ‘Yes. Yes. No. No. Oh that’s –‘. A lot of them before they finally agreed on a, agreed on a course and then it was crossing the enemy coast. That for me was about the first time was really really not knowing what to expect. Anyway, I very soon found out what it was like as we were getting this crossing point, the enemy coast and suddenly searchlights, ackack, fire, aircraft, aircraft coming up, checking the height and the bombs are not just dropped you’ve got to drop from a certain height and then the navigator were the ones doing the talking, agreeing with the pilot on a certain in, ‘We could do with another thousand feet.’ ‘Yeah. I’ll try it.’ and we would, did it say what -
AM: Let me have a look at, let me find the next one. The Channel Dash that you -
EC: Yes. Now, that’s been reported many many times and it still is.
AM: Were you part of that Eric?
EC: Yes. Let me think. Channel Dash. Name the crew first.
AM: Let me have a look. I’m just trying to see if, with my flight. Oh someone, someone had your flying boots on.
EC: That’s right.
AM: Sergeant B Hunter.
EC: Hunter. Yes that’s the one. I think, however, I was in the tin I think. I can’t remember. Oh I do wish. That morning, I were all ready for call to get airborne and I was in the crew room and like, usually and some people knew the crew same as before and others, like me, I wasn’t sure where I’d be. I’d be called. You were given the pilot’s name. Anyway, oh come on, come on, come on. We were briefed. While we were waiting that morning the back room boys and so on they, everybody knew that the three German battleships were based at Brest.
AM: Yes.
EC: And there was the Scharnhorst and [Schweigen?] oh the name of it now, it will come.
AM: I can’t remember but I know that the Scharnhorst was one of the big ones.
EC: Yes. Yeah. [pause] I can’t remember.
AM: Why, why did Sergeant Hunter have your flying boots on?
EC: Oh yes. Yes, this is the story. Again, it’s in here in detail. We’re in the crew room. There’s lockers. Flying lockers. Your flying kit, if you’re not wearing it, should be in that locker. Right. I was, I got to the crew room. I saw the operations board. That’s the only time, sometimes that I found where I was -
AM: Where you were going?
EC: With whom and where we were going. Channel, Brest and I was with this, well Sergeant Hunter, he was spitting feathers for want of, I put the flying kit on to join this particular aircraft which was on the operations board. Next to me is Sergeant Hunter and he’d been on the squadron just a few months or more. A bit more experienced and he seemed a happy type. Now, he, he had left his flying boots at his billet. At that time we were in the old married quarters for, you know air crew and so on and against the rules, the rules flying clothing must be in the locker. Anyway. I’m scrubbed. Oh yes while and I was getting my stuff on and the door opened and Gadsby, Flight Sergeant Gadsby, ‘Sergeant Clarke, you’re scrubbed.’ I said, ‘Oh not again.’ And anyway to Hunter, ‘I’m scrubbed so you he might as well take mine.’ ‘Alright.’ He had no time to go back to the billet. He’d got to get there and out to the aircraft and so he did and I went back to the crew room and [have something to eat] play around till the next morning to see how they got on. Well the next morning I found that Sergeant Hunter’s aircraft and four others had not come back and my, obviously my boots were down. Well, later on Sergeant Hunter’s [?] body was washed up on the French shore two days later, the Dutch shore two days later. Oh and trying to move it on a little bit I’d been out to Holland two or three times [on the] memorial [to him] he was shot down anyway as he crossed the coast and it was a Hampden, low flying aircraft and they were already obviously, from the information there they were already they knew they were going down so the wireless operator in the tin came up and squeezed into the wireless operator’s -
AM: Yeah.
EC: Standing order that for take-off and landing the chap in the tin had to be up top squeezed in. So that’s what happened. They went down. Pilot and engineer went down with the aircraft on a Dutch farm and the wireless operator and gunner they were thrown out of the aircraft somehow and, but they went down with the aircraft into the mud and the Dutch -
AM: Yeah.
EC: So for sixty years that aircraft with two crew, pilot and navigator, and they recovered it anyway.
AM: It was recovered.
EC: That was a long story anyway but –
AM: So that was the story of your boots. Let’s have a look at some more.
EC: I’ve been since and they recovered the aircraft and gave them a military –
AM: A proper burial. A proper burial.
EC: And it’s all about it and everything in here and then I went back to the crew room waiting to see where next. Who I was going to fly with next.
AM: We’ve got the next one February mine laying and leaflets. Were you still on Hampdens or had you moved -
EC: No.
AM: To Manchesters at this point?
EC: All my, all my ops there were twelve on Hampdens, four on Manchesters and twelve on Lancasters.
AM: On Lancasters. Which was the best out of the three?
EC: Oh [laughs]
AM: Which one Eric? You’re pointing at it but I don’t know which it is.
EC: Oh well that’s a Hampden.
AM: That’s a Hampden.
EC: That’s a, it’s a Lancaster.
AM: Oh that one’s a Lancaster.
EC: And if that was a true photo, well it is, that would be up there.
AM: This one would be you.
EC: That was my position and I would be there.
AM: So did you like the Lancaster best out of the three?
EC: Ooh ooh above everything.
AM: Really. Why?
EC: Well first of all it was the space I’d got.
AM: Yes, you’re not down in the tin any more.
EC: In the tin. I was surrounded by wireless there and there.
AM: So you were just crunched up with your knees up to your nose nearly.
EC: Yeah [?] try to write something in the logbook and I’ve highlighted where I am in the crews.
AM: We’ve got, we’ve got the mine laying and leaflets and let me just have a look here. In March 1942, Essen.
EC: Yes.
AM: Were you on that one?
EC: Well am I marked? It gives you the -
AM: Essen. Yes. Clarke. There you are. Let’s have another, - hang on, [pause] in March ’42 again mine laying and nickels.
EC: Yeah. Don’t know. Now the thing is you want the logbook.
AM: Now don’t worry about, Lubeck. You went to Lubeck. In March.
EC: Lubeck. Lubeck. That’s in the South Baltic. That was a little [?] port all ancient but it was a military target used by the Germans for shipping so for us it was a, it was a target.
AM: A legitimate target.
EC: Yes. So we gave them a surprise. Went over the North Sea. Now –
AM: April ‘42 Cologne.
EC: Yes. [pause] Did we lose any?
AM: Let me have a look. Yes. A flight with Pilot Officer D Kay. Became a prisoner of war and the wireless operator and air gunner was killed. Sergeant Waddell. Sergeant Waddell.
EC: Sergeant Waddell, yes.
AM: Yeah.
EC: Yeah.
AM: I’m looking at the ones that you’ve highlighted.
EC: Yes.
AM: You’ve got April ‘42 was a noticeable date. From this date the unit received its first three Avro Manchesters.
EC: Yes. Now they phased out the Hampdens. Now this is where the flying logbook would have come in.
[Knocking on door]
AM: Oh just one minute. Knock at the door.
[machine paused]
EC: [?]
AM: No. Let’s, let’s, let’s move on a bit. When you got the Lancasters -
EC: Yeah.
AM: Where did you go in the Lancasters? Let me look.
EC: Oh we didn’t do any ops for a month.
AM: No.
EC: Because we had to, what was the trouble we had?
AM: Debrief from one plane and learned to fly another one.
EC: Yes. Yes.
AM: Yeah. Were you on the thousand bomber raid?
EC: Yes.
AM: To Cologne.
EC: Yes. That was May the 30th. Was it?
AM: Yeah. May, yes May 30th 1942.
EC: Yes and it had got six crew and it was more or less a Lancaster fuselage.
AM: Yeah.
EC: So I’d got all this room. I loved it. I’d got a desk and I could get up and I could stand, stand up and put my head in the astrodome and look at, you know, for targets and navigational points and then when we got the signal to, to drop the leaflets I, how can I [pause] I site there?
AM: Yeah we’re looking at a picture now of the -
EC: Wireless.
AM: Wireless operator.
EC: I’m back here. Behind my bomb there’s called the main spar of the aircraft.
AM: Yes.
EC: And I go along there, leg over there and I’m in the -
AM: The fuselage.
EC: The fuselage is it where I’d been like this I’d got all this space. So what the fuse, and the packets with the rubber bands and so on and I got on the intercom, connected by intercom by the pilot and navigator and they told me when, coming up they knew the height we were flying at and the instructions as to the best, well releasing the leaflets. There’s no bomb aiming facility as such but it’s something throwing out parcels so they went down in packets of thousands. Well we did that and we got back safely. Another?
AM: What about the thousand bomber raid?
EC: Yes that’s the last -
AM: Yeah. And then Essen in June 1942.
EC: June 1st. That was Flying Officer Jefferies.
AM: Yes.
EC: He became my pilot.
AM: Right.
EC: I knew I was flying with him but I’d done my ops and on the board I knew that I was flying with him. Now then. Pick one with Flying Officer Jefferies.
AM: It says here that over Essen you attacked from nine thousand feet at two minutes past two and bomb bursts were seen in the target area. Large fires started.
EC: Yeah.
AM: So you knew you’d hit the, hit what you, hit the target.
EC: Only four [Manchesters].
AM: Yeah. When did you move on to Lancasters? Can you, what month?
EC: What
AM: What month did you move on to Lancasters?
EC: We had a period of adjustment to another aircraft.
AM: Yes. Yeah.
EC: Does it say?
AM: Osnabruck. These are all August. Osnabruck.
EC: Osnabruck, yes.
AM: Flensburg and Frankfurt.
EC: Yeah.
AM: And then Zabrucken and Bremen.
EC: Which aircraft?
AM: Let me have a look. Let me look at the picture. I’m not sure. I think this might -
EC: The first Lancaster I remember of course was Flight Lieutenant Cook. Cookie as he was. You hear about this one. We, not much to say, we went to pick up an aircraft and we went to a station to pick up a Lancaster and that was our first Lancaster.
AM: Right.
EC: After that we got them all.
AM: You got, it’s talking here about mine laying in September and the Cooke crew of W4107.
EC: Yes.
AM: Attacked their primary target at Warnemunde
EC: Yeah.
AM: And then landed back at Scampton but four aircraft had to go, so Marston Moor and then we’ve got Weismar again.
EC: Yeah.
AM: And Cologne again in October.
EC: Cologne. It was the last of the four. I knew it was a massed operation but I didn’t know that it was the flight. I’d got several to do for my tour [part of that?] [pause] What does it say?
AM: I’ve got another one here where, here we are at about 2130 on the evening of 24th of October.
EC: Yeah.
AM: After W4761 got back to her Scampton dispersal out jumped Eric Clarke the W/Op air gunner to celebrate the completion of his operational tour.
EC: Now where were, where had we landed?
AM: You landed at Scampton.
EC: No.
AM: Oh wait a minute. Let me look.
EC: The day before.
AM: I’m not sure.
EC: I’ll look at it in there.
AM: But you did twenty six operations.
EC: Yes. We landed short of petrol.
AM: Right.
EC: Back at the place where I did all my OTU.
AM: Right.
EC: South of Oxford.
AM: Right.
EC: See. And then next day, in the morning, we got airborne to Scampton.
AM: Back to Scampton.
EC: I’ll show you anyway and you’ll appreciate the details there.
AM: When you finished Eric, when you’d done, when you’d done your last operation what did you do after that?
EC: Right. Well, I’m now, I’d got quite a bit of leave, but I’ve no job, I’m married to a wonderful, and my wife was working all the time. She worked in a paper shop, newsagent shop and with close family and for instance the owners always had the news agent shop and he used to have to be up at five in the morning. It was very very good for them [?] and that was the same one –
AM: Can I just look at the front of this where it’s saying that you became a signals officer?
EC: Oh yes. That’s right.
AM: And a senior signals leader.
EC: Yes. That’s it. Well when I finished the, got back safely and landed at Scampton and then we carried on ops to finish my tour. We were all together and we qualified as staff Pathfinders.
AM: Yes.
EC: We were a special crew. We were good.
AM: Yeah. Let me just look at the front again. You were commissioned and then you rose quickly in rank to flight lieutenant.
EC: Yeah.
AM: Became a signals officer and then a senior signals leader.
EC: Yeah.
AM: You were mentioned in dispatches in June 1944.
EC: Yeah.
AM: That’s when the war -
AM: Yes. And then finally you became a staff lecturer at the number one Bomber Command Instructor’s School.
EC: At Finningley.
AM: At Finningley.
EC: Yes.
AM: Back where you started.
EC: Yes. But again things weren’t always going right. I can finish that part off. I did, I was called for ops back at Scampton after the Cologne raid and we were briefed to go to [?] Stettin to submarines out there, in the Baltic rather. The Baltic. And to cut that short I was briefed twice to do an op and they were both scrubbed.
AM: And that was to Stettin.
EC: Stettin. Yes.
AM: Yes. Yeah.
EC: And it was for mine laying.
AM: Right.
EC: It was a base. A German base. Anyway, it was a stealth, we called it a stealth raid. Right. We got back and expected to go on the next trip, we’ll be on tomorrow night. Ok. And tomorrow night came and I wasn’t there and I thought I would be there [?] and I went back. Anyway it was scrubbed and it was announced that I had completed my tour of ops which was fourteen months.
AM: Yeah. Finished.
EC: On record.
AM: Yeah.
EC: And so on and then I think, it will tell me in the book, I don’t know how long it was before I was posted. Anyway –
AM: What was it like being an instructor?
EC: Well I was very much at home.
AM: Yeah.
EC: Very much at home with it. I indulged a little bit here and there. [?] the smokers in those days. And they were chain smoking and you could tell the type you know.
AM: Yeah.
EC: I wasn’t [I was too disciplined to] smoke really. Anyway, I was, in June what I wanted to get to, I was called for interview by the station squadron commander. Got that right? Yes, in the book. Would I, ‘Would you accept recommendation for a commission in His Majesty’s Royal Air Force.’ ‘Yes sir.’ I was already a Church Lads Brigade officer for four hundred boys, you know. Anyway, ‘Thank you, you will get the papers eventually. You go home, you get kitted up and we will send you on your way.’ ‘Thank you sir.’ Away I went and went home and I got my papers there. I was a pilot officer.
AM: That was your commission.
EC: And that was that. Then it came through and by that time I was in this OTU getting in to the role of reflecting [?] the OTU as I was still a sergeant. And then I was called, [pause] damn it damn it damn it.
AM: I think you were, you were a sergeant, then a pilot officer.
EC: Yes.
AM: Then a flying officer.
EC: There’s a story with that, you see.
AM: Right ok.
EC: Because I was, I was called by the CO on the OTU where I was a senior instructor at that time.
AM: Yes. Yeah.
EC: ‘Your commission has come through, Pilot Officer Clarke,’ and he leaned across the desk to shake hands and I think it was and, ‘There are your papers, your railway warrant, you’ve eight days to get kitted out’ and [?] there.
EC: ‘Thank you sir,’ and away I went. Home. Pilot officer what had happened they found out later on that prior to getting your commission once you’re recommended you start off with the organisation. The quadron commander, the station commander, group headquarters at Lincoln and so on and then to command headquarters and then ten days later you, you’re an officer. Well I went through all that but it didn’t work. Somewhere along the line somebody sat on my papers or misdirected them or whatever and I arrived at this station and what was that station where I arrived at?
AM: Lincoln?
EC: No.
AM: No.
EC: South of Oxford.
AM: I can’t remember. Does it say in here where you were? No. Don’t worry. Don’t matter.
EC: [Pause] Damn. Damn. Damn.
AM: It’s frustrating isn’t it?
EC: It is yes.
AM: Where, where were, I’m just going back to your, where was Number One Bomber Command Instructor’s School?
EC: Finningley.
AM: That was at Finningley. So you did end up at Finningley in the end.
EC: Yeah.
AM: When were you demobbed Eric? How long did you stay in?
EC: October 13.
AM: 1945 or ’46.
EC: [?]
AM: You were demobbed.
EC: Yes. And I did fourteen months.
AM: Yes.
EC: Continuous.
AM: Operations.
EC: Which would be a record but at the time, statistically the lifespan of Bomber Command aircrew was seven or eight weeks.
AM: Yes.
EC: And I did fourteen months.
AM: You did.
EC: And -
AM: Do you know I think I’m going to switch off now.
EC: Yes.
AM: And let you have a drink and a rest but thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Eric Clarke
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-17
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AClarkeE150817
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:51:27 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Eric was born in Doncaster and had a difficult childhood. He was attracted by nearby RAF Finningley and decided he wanted to join the RAF when war was imminent. He was registered as an aircraftman second class and trained to be a wireless operator. After training in Blackpool, he did wireless operator training at RAF Yatesbury before going to an Operational Training Unit in Oxfordshire. Eric was then posted to RAF Finningley and 49 Squadron at RAF Scampton.
Eric’s first operation was in October 1941 to Hüls (Krefeld) and Bremen. He did twenty six operations on three different types of aircraft: Hampdens, Manchesters, and Lancasters. He preferred the Lancaster because he had much more space. He was stood down on the “Channel Dash” operation: the wireless operator borrowed his flying boots but never returned.
Eric became a senior signals leader and, after the tour, qualified as staff Pathfinder. He was mentioned in dispatches in 1944 and became a staff lecturer at No. 1 Bomber Command Instructors School at RAF Finningley. Eric was commissioned as a pilot officer and then flying officer.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Cheshire
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Krefeld
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Cologne
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-02
1944
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
49 Squadron
aircrew
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
Hampden
Lancaster
Manchester
memorial
mine laying
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
promotion
RAF Finningley
RAF Padgate
RAF Scampton
RAF Yatesbury
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/493/8379/Stan Clegg and Joyce.2.jpg
f2a63fde71d036ac2c0560db3ff49631
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/493/8379/ACleggS160706.1.mp3
942f45cca6b20b5576f44fdc6ecfed4c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Clegg, Stanley
S Clegg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Clegg, S
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sergeant Stanley Clegg (1923 -2022, 1750485 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Stanley Clegg and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 6th of July 2016. We’re in Maidenhead with Stanley Clegg to talk about his career in the RAF. So, Stanley, what are your earliest recollections?
SC: Well, I was born in 1923 in to a working-class family in the small town of Shaw, near Oldham. My father worked in the cotton industry as did everyone else in the cotton town, and my mother worked in a laundry from six in the morning till six in the evening. We lived in a small four roomed house and of course, the cotton industry was beginning to see that it was disappearing as an industrial base in Britain. And of course, as a baby, I don’t remember very, very much of this time, but I grew up in to working class society and I went to a small church school, which was initially called the Wesleyans, and it ultimately changed to St Paul’s, and this was a junior school, so I attended from the age of four to the age of eleven. In those days, at the age of eleven, you sat an examination to see if you were grammar school material, and unfortunately, I was never even asked to sit the paper, and so I went to what was known as a central school which educationally was half way between a grammar school and an ordinary school. I went, I was fourteen when I left the central school and I was in the top class all the way through my three years there. Work wasn’t easy to find. If your father was in a trade, you could become an apprentice, but my father had been unemployed for quite some years and unfortunately, I didn’t know anyone who could get me as an apprentice, but one day I heard of a job vacancy in a cotton mill office. I was still at school at this time but leaving on the following Friday, and this would be Thursday afternoon. My father took me down to this cotton mill, which was called the Fern Cotton Spinning Company Limited, and the, secretary said, ‘Come back for a test after you’ve been to school and we’ll see whether you’re suitable’. So after school, I went back to the mill and I was given an arithmetic test and an English test and he said he would let me know how I’d gone on, on the Saturday morning. On the Saturday morning, I was told to go back to the Fern Mill because I’d got the job out of the candidates that they’d had, and so on the following Monday morning I started work at 8 o’clock in the cotton mill office, and the first job I did was to fill inkwells and put new blotting paper out for the staff of which, in the office, there were only four of us. There were two hundred in the factory and four in the office. Today we have two hundred in the office and four in the factory. All right so far?
CB: Absolutely.
SC: Bit by bit, I got into the office work and I became the company typist, so each day I probably prepared thirty or forty invoices for the sale of our cotton yarn, and I also typed the letters that the company was sending and also calculated the wages. There were no calculation, calculating machines in the factory in those days so it was all done in our head, so I’m a very quick arithmetician, today even. And I had to improve my handwriting because all the account books, the sales ledgers, the purchase ledgers and the share ledgers were all hand written. After two years, the chief clerk, who was sixteen, got another job and I was promoted with an increase in pay of 2’6 pence, so my salary went up from ten shillings to twelve shillings and sixpence, and I did the job of the chief clerk. Unfortunately, they didn’t replace the junior clerk, which I was previously, and I had to do the two jobs for the extra two and sixpence a week. After about three months in my new job, the company decided that the trading situation wasn’t good and it went into voluntary liquidation. The managing director of the Fern Cotton Spinning Company was the cousin of a famous musician, Sir William Walton. On leaving that, the mill at the age of sixteen, the first time I was redundant, with no redundancy pay in those days, I managed to get another job as an office boy in a company just outside Oldham called Thomas Mellowdew and Company, and they were famous worldwide for the manufacture of velvets and velveteens so it was quite a big company. It had both cotton spinning machinery and weaving machinery - looms. So at the age of sixteen, I began work at Thomas Mellowdew and I used to have a long walk to work through the country, about two miles each there and two miles back, and I actually started there on the day that the war began. And so we tramped through the countryside with flashlights in the winter months and whatever, and bit by bit I, again in the mill office which had few staff, about three hundred in this factory and I did the wages and the general work that was done in an office, writing up the account books and ledgers and so on and so forth. At this time I began to study textile manufacture at the local night school for three or four nights a week, and I continued to do that until I was called up at the age of eighteen into the RAF, and that was at Oldham Technical College as it was then. At the age of eighteen, a national order came out that everybody who was eighteen had to sign up, so prior to being informed that I had to go for an Army, an Army recruitment, one of my pals said to me, ‘slip down to the Air Force and you’ll get in the Air Force’. So, the recruiting agency was in Dover Street, Manchester and of course, in those days, Manchester was a long way from Oldham, so I went down on a bus to Manchester, found Dover Street and offered to become a volunteer in the Royal Air Force, for which I was accepted, given a number and that would be December 1941. I went back to my job in the textile industry, and in April 1942, I was called up to go to RAF Padgate. Alright so far? RAF Padgate. I had been put down to train as a wireless operator, I had two weeks at Padgate and then I was transferred to Blackpool where the wireless operating schools were based in the Winter Gardens. I began my training. The day used to be split into an afternoon and a morning session and they changed them about, so one week you were on mornings and one week you were afternoons, and you went into the place and the, there were these long tables each with about ten or fifteen students around them, all learning Morse, and we each had a different instructor and we either did a morning session or an afternoon session. The alternate sessions that you did were spent in drilling on the promenade. The morning session, the instructor I had would always do, when we got used to taking Morse a little bit easier, he used to do the first page of the Daily Telegraph, so I can remember quite well the Morse for the Daily Telegraph which was - de de de de da da da da de de de da de da de de de de de di dit - and so we learned Morse. If you did the afternoon session with my particular instructor, he improved my education by introducing us to this ship, the Beagle, which went out as a research ship around about 1800 I would think, so the adventures of the Beagle was a book that had been written about that time and so we did the adventures of the Beagle in the afternoon. Unfortunately, one of the RAF sayings comes from this source. Each Friday, you had to go for an examination to see how your speed was going on the Morse and it was held in the upper storey, which had previously been a billiard hall above Burtons, and so the saying, ‘We went for a Burton’, originated in the Blackpool School of Morse. Now then, I managed this business of improving my speed until the very final, when we were tested to see if we could do twelve words a minute, and unfortunately I couldn’t, so I was taken off the course, where my friends would be sent to Compton Bassett or somewhere like that and I went to the very north of Scotland in Sutherland, via Inverness, to become a general dogsbody on a small RAF radio station in a little place called Elfin. Now this would be June 1942, and I arrived first in Inverness to this RAF station, which was a big headquarters, and I always remember looking at the Moray Firth for the first time, thinking how wonderful this is. Of course, being a working-class lad from the middle of Lancashire. Anyway, from there, I was put on a train that went further north towards Lairg and it was, I remember the name of the station I got off at was Invershin, and I had to walk the next distance with my pack which would be about two miles I suppose to the headquarters of this radio system, and the house was called Altnagar - A L T N A G A R - Altnagar. And it had been the shooting lodge of Sir, of Andrew, was he called Andrew Carnegie? The man who provided the libraries, and I remember we had just a small run of part of the house and we could sit in the kitchen, and at that time I’d never even heard of Carnegie, my education was a bit lacking although we had a Carnegie Library in my town, and I remember the electro magnet signals in the kitchen to tell you who you were required by either in Mr Carnegie’s bathroom or Mr Carnegie’s sitting room or Miss Carnegie’s bathroom or sitting room or whatever. A little moving flag. And I was there about a week and I was sent off to near the west coast, to a very small unit of thirteen members, called RAF Elfin, and it was a little radio station. So with thirteen members, wherein a corporal was in charge. I can’t remember his name but I remember he came from Kettering, and there was another chappy from Middlesbrough and one or two, obviously a variation of people from different places. So there were thirteen of us on the unit and our job was, the whole of Scotland had been divided up into squares - A, B, C, D, E - and each square had a radio station like us in, and our job was to report on German aircraft going over to bomb convoys coming in from the North Atlantic, and moving down The Minch. A, each unit had three teams so we had a corporal, two dogsbodies like me and we had three teams of three, a wireless operator, an observer and a sort of a runner, and so they worked shifts, and we used to wait till we were wakened up or whatever to German aircraft going over, which we reported, and of course we were able to follow their path. Sorry, the dogsbody was an observer, yeah, and we were able to report the path of the aircraft.
Other: Hello. You’re still here obviously.
SC: Saying it was going, said which way the planes were going, east or west or northeast or northwest, and they would be picked up by successive squares that were in the system. I can’t remember the exact month but it’s well known that the Canadian forces were preparing a raid on Dieppe, and I think it must have been about July when ten, sorry, nine of our thirteen, sorry, ten of our thirteen were sent to White Waltham near Maidenhead which was then a dispersal centre, and of course that left just three of us up on this little radio station and all the others disappeared. I had taken the address of two of the chaps who I was very friendly with, about my age, and I, I, after some time I wrote to the mother of one, and I got a rather upsetting letter back that they had been the signals contact on the Dieppe raid and they’d all been lost. So to some extent, I was a bit lucky. Now when the, just three of us left, I thought I’ve got to do something, and on the daily routine orders they said anybody who was good at arithmetic could apply as a trainee wireless mechanic, so I applied. Came down to Cardington for a test to see if my background was adequate and I did exams in science and arithmetic, basic maths. And so I was taken on and they said, ‘Yes, we’ll send for you when we need you’. So a couple of weeks went past and I was posted to the radio training college at Rotherham, near Sheffield. So I left the little radio unit and went down to Rotherham, and I started a rather long course to become a wireless mechanic and I got an exceptionally good basic training in electronics and radio signals, and how to repair radios, but unfortunately, when it came to the exams at the end, I wasn’t good enough. So that would be probably, I can’t say now, February 1943. So I was posted out to a bomb dump, at a place called Escrick, just outside York, and I became a member of a team of men offloading bombs in this bomb storage area, which of course was in the middle of a lot of airfields, and our job was to prepare these bombs to go to the units, that were going to be used in the raids in the evening or night I suppose. Anyway, after two days of lifting bombs, and particularly the big thousand pound ones which I wasn’t keen on, but I was told they were quite safe. I didn’t believe them. I thought, I’ve had enough of this, so I walked up to the adjutant’s office and said, ‘Do you want a typist?’ To which they said, ‘Why? Can you type?’ I said, ‘Yeah’. So they said, ‘Oh well we might, we don’t know. We’ll keep you informed’. So the following morning, at 7 o’clock, when I was on work parade, I was called out to go and take a typing exam, so I went to the adjutant’s office, took a typing exam and they said, ‘We’ll let you know if we need you’. So the following morning, which was rather quick, they sent for me and I became the company typist and I remember they had the stock control system, and each week we had to type out this huge thing telling us which sort of bombs we had in store, and the man who had previously been the typist had gone off on a course to become a cypher operator in the RAF and he was on a course in Oxford. So I thought, well I could do that job, it’s just right. Anyhow, I carried on and about a month later, they put up another order to, for cypher people, so I went along and I applied and about two weeks later I came to Oxford, to St John’s College for a week, where they kept us fairly confined, and we chatted and talked with various people and did little exams, which mathematically were easy for me, and they sent me back to my unit, and about three weeks after that, I found myself on the code and cypher course in Oxford, which lasted for probably four or five weeks. It so happened that I came out fourth of the top, from the top in this exam. Not the bottom as I had been previously and -
Other: [unclear]
SC: And I, the top ten people were sent on leave. The remaining people, the remaining people went to various RAF bases, and I remember the conversation amongst we top ten was, ‘I reckon we we’re off for overseas straightaway’, and we were told that we’d be told to come back after two weeks leave. So off we go home, during which time I broke my finger but that didn’t make any difference. After two weeks exactly, I got a telegram saying to report to an address in Baker Street, London, the following day. So off I go to Baker Street, and now I’ve been in the RAF so I’ve got used to titles like squadron leader and flight lieutenant and flight sergeant and corporal, and I get down for the first time in my life to London. People didn’t travel in those days, and I was surprised to find it looked like being part of Marks and Spencer’s, and it had a big green door, and I remember knocking on these closed doors and a ATS, ATS officer arrived and I handed her the telegram, and I was amazed because I’d only been, in the services, known as Clegg or Airman, and now the lady said, ‘Oh hello, Stanley. How delighted I am to meet you. Do come in and go into that little room on your right and there are several of your ex-colleagues in there, and I’ll make you some tea and biscuits’, and I thought, ‘What am I getting into?’ And she came in shortly afterwards and there were four others in there whose names I remember and largely where they came from. There was a man called Pike, who came from London, there was myself, there was a man called Earnshaw from Huddersfield. And so we’ve now got Clegg, Pike, Earnshaw, Barlow, who I mustn’t forget because that’s a story in itself, Barlow and there was another man from Sheffield called, I’ve just forgotten his name but it will come back, and we’d been in there eating, having these biscuits and coffee, and she said, ‘Lieutenant Colonel Gore-Browne will now see you individually’. So number one went in to see Gore-Browne, and number two, and I happened to be the last one and sitting in front of me there, in fact he stood up when I went in, and he had all red tabs around his neck, and it’s the first time I’d ever met a lieutenant colonel, and, ‘Oh hello Stanley’, he said, ‘Do take a seat old chap’, and I sat down and he said, ‘Now, I’m going to ask you a question or two’, he said, ‘And all I need is yes and no’. He said, ‘Now, you’ve probably noticed that some of the five, some of the ten friends that you left Oxford with aren’t now with you’. To which I said, ‘Yes’. He said, ‘Well the reason is’, he said, ‘Whilst you’ve been on leave, we’ve been making enquiries right around your home town’, he said, ‘And for instance, we know Mr Ridley, the postmaster. We know your old school headmaster, and we’ve made one or two enquiries about your family. We know that your father was in the First World War’, he said, ‘And we’ve considered you’re alright for the purpose’. He said, ‘The five friends who are missing are what we call security risks’. He said, ‘Now the next thing’, he said, ‘Do you want to stay with us or not?’ He said, ‘I cannot tell you what the work is, but you are invited to stay with us if you so wish’. He said, ‘If you say no’, he said, ‘You can go through that door and back into the RAF’. So either in my ignorance or in, yeah probably ignorance I did in fact quickly weigh it up. I had about three seconds. So I said, ‘Yes’. ‘Ah good’, he said, and he shook my hand again and said, ‘Welcome’, to which I now thought, ‘Where am I going from here?’ So I went out from his office, having now become part of this whatever it was, and I went back to see that four of my friends, the name that I’d forgotten, by the way, is Kirton. The man from Sheffield. Ivor Kirton.
Other: A good name.
SC: K I R T O N.
Other: [unclear]
SC: And I met them, up with them again and we had another coffee and another biscuit, and then we were taken to our billet which was in Hallam Street in London, and we’d no idea what was happening to us but we were taken to our billet in Hallam Street, which was rather a posh part, I think, of London, ‘cause they were all very big houses and the first thing, the first man I spoke to in Hallam Street, I’d never seen him before and he said to me, ‘If ever you see any of us in the street, don’t recognise us’. Now, to a lad who is just gone nineteen, this is all very odd, but I thought, well I’m here now, I’ll stick with it, and the food was good and there were probably about twenty of us in this place, including my four pals, and we kept noticing that these blokes, who didn’t have a uniform on, kept disappearing and of course we didn’t know where they disappeared to, and then they might reappear or maybe not and we were there, but the following morning, we were taken to, I think it was number 57 or 56 Broadway, and it was opposite St James’ Park Station, just across the road, and we were now taken down in to the bottom of the building, which I will tell you we’ve been back to see, and we were introduced to a young lady who now said, ‘I’m going to teach you another type of cypher’. So we learned this other type of cypher and we then went from there to Bletchley Park. I was at Bletchley Park probably six or seven weeks when I was then transferred to quite a big radio station at Great Witcombe, near, near a very famous spot called Birdlip Hill and a pub called The Air Balloon, and I was there for probably five weeks when I went back to Bletchley, and from Bletchley, I was sent on leave for two weeks and that was embarkation leave.
Other: Keep going.
CB: Keep going. Right, so we’ve left Birdlip.
SC: So we’ve left, we’ve left Great Witcombe and I’m sent home on two weeks leave, which is embarkation leave, and after two weeks I’m told to report to a PDC in Morecambe. We stayed in billets for about a week when the ship that we were going on abroad would be ready to load passengers at Liverpool. Now, being with Bletchley Park and now having knowledge of a very secret system, we five, Kirton, myself, Barlow, we’re now told that we’re going on a ship called The Monarch of Bermuda to Algiers. Now, the rest of the troops on board this ship didn’t know where they were going, all they had was their rifles and their kit and topees. Topees. So we were privileged in knowing this, and when we boarded ship, we, at Liverpool, I remember walking down from Lime Street Station with a rifle on my back and my topee hanging from my backpack and people looking out of offices and cheering us as we marched down to join the ship at the quayside opposite the Liver Buildings.
CB: Yeah.
SC: We boarded the ship, quite a number of Army troops and we five chaps out of the RAF. There was only a small contingent of RAF people on there and mainly Army. They then moved to the middle of the River Mersey where they anchored again for a short period, and I remember the jokes that we couldn’t now escape and about, in the evening a battalion of the Black Watch were moved out in tenders to join the ship. We lay there for about a day when we began to set sail. I remember us going up the Mersey and we sailed out at the Mersey Bar and we sailed for about a day, and at 6 o’clock in the morning, I remember Barlow coming in and said, ‘We’re in Iceland’, which seemed sensible because we had topees (laughs), and I thought, ‘Oh dear’, so I went out on the after deck and saw these small houses here and there, and we all decided that we were now in Iceland, until about 9 o’clock when a tug went past us that said “John Brown and Company, Glasgow”. So we now knew we were up the Clyde. And we -
Other: Oh dear.
SC: We anchored at Greenock and this was apparently called, ‘Joining convoy’. We stayed there for a couple of days and my only memories of Greenock was looking across at a pavilion that had a clock on. I couldn’t read the clock, we were too far away but I remember it well and I’m told it’s still there.
Other: Right.
SC: The Monday evening, we were all invited to a little concert that was going on, so obviously we didn’t all go down but some of us did, and the chief entertainer was Peter Ustinov, who was going out, he was in the Royal Signals apparently, and he was going out to Algiers and he gave us a little concert. I can’t remember what it was about but there we were. We, on the, whilst the concert was going on, which, if I remember correctly, was at about 9 o’clock on a Monday evening, we heard the engines start and we moved out. We knew we were going to Algiers but not many in the boat did, and we were billeted, sorry, we were housed in a cabin and the ship had been a cruise ship previously, out, I presume, in the Caribbean, and the Monarch of Bermuda and it had a bathroom in. A lovely pink bathroom and proper wash basins and a shower, and I remember thinking to myself, ‘Oh lovely, I can have a good wash here’, because we didn’t have a bathroom in my house, or a shower, and I found out that the soap didn’t work. So I made an enquiry, the man in charge of our set of cabins was called Ivan, and, ‘Oh no’, he said, ‘You’ll have to buy some soap’. Seaweed soap or something, I wouldn’t know, that did, in fact, give a bit of lather in sea water and where did we get the soap from? Obviously from Ivan at, I presume, an inflated price. So anyhow I bought a bar of soap from Ivan and I had my first bath that I’d had for a long time I think, and we set off on our sail, not knowing where we were going and obviously, we went north, up The Minch, past Iceland and Greenland, and we were told that we’d now get into heavy fog, which we did, and we just saw one or two small icebergs and then we hit, I presume, the American coast, and we sailed down it because of difficulties with submarines. This journey lasted fourteen or fifteen days, and I remember every now and again we’d hear depth chargers going off, and we slept in our clothes. We never took our clothes off apart from that once when I had a bath, and we wore our lifebelts all the time, and we ultimately hit the, I suppose, the Bahamas or whatever, and we turned east past the Canaries ultimately, the Canary Isles, and then we’d hit the West African coast where we turned left, north and came up to the straights of Gibraltar. Now we were waiting to go through, we couldn’t go through the straits until it went dark, because there were apparently, so they said, foreign agents on the North African coast and the Spanish coast, and we were rather surprised to see that they put the masts down on the ship because apparently, these people were shining either radio signals or whatever or light, and as the ships went past, they could identify what they were roughly from the mast situation and the height of the funnels and various other things, so we went through when it was dark and some hours later, I wouldn’t know how long, we called, we pulled in at Algiers. We lined up at Algiers. There’s a fifth member of our party that I haven’t mentioned called Alf Parrock. Now, he came from Battle in Sussex and we hadn’t seen much of Alf since leaving Liverpool because the poor chap was seasick even watching, having a glass of water and -
Other: Oh dear.
SC: He, he lost about two stone I remember. And we got off at Algiers. The contingent of the Black Watch were marched off in full marching order, and we were left on the quayside until a senior officer came along, and he said, ‘Sergeant Parrock, step forward’. So Sergeant Parrock stepped forward and the poor chap, they said, ‘Just go there to that gangway and join that boat there’. He said, ‘You’re going to Corsica’. So poor old Parrock, who’d just got off a boat having been sick for a fortnight, now goes back on another boat for another sea trip. So there was Alf Parrock’s story, and we were whisked off and I was taken, we were taken to an RAF camp called Fort De Lowe, Fort De Lowe, and there was another RAF base there called Maison Blanche. Can’t remember what happened there but anyhow, the five of us now arrive at Fort De Lowe, and a very nice flight sergeant took us around and he said, ‘I’ll find you a bed space now’. So they were all in tents, and the first tent he went to, he said, ‘Oh that’s full’, and the second he went in, he says, ‘One of you in there’, so I looked in and I could see there were no beds in there so I thought, I’m smart. I didn’t realise that this was the start of me sleeping on the floor for a long time, and ultimately, three of us went on to the final tent but there was a bed space but sadly no bed. So we were there for probably about four days when we were transferred, if I’ve got the name correctly, it was the George Hotel in Algiers, which was the headquarters of the Army in North Africa. Not Egypt. Just Algiers, Morocco, Tunisia and I worked there for probably two or three weeks when they decided the war, the war in North Africa was then over. It ended at Cap, sorry, it ended in Tunis in May 1943, the North African campaign at Cap Bon. Cap Bon. And we moved down, the remaining four of us, Parrock having gone to Corsica, and we moved down to Tunis and we landed at Tunis Airport, El Aouina, which is still there ‘cause I’ve been twice since, and we moved out to a little town, a very small town called La Marsa, which is near Carthage. La Marsa. And there were just about probably about fifteen of us on the unit under a Squadron Leader Payne. Payne. P A Y N E, I presume and we had this little radio station and it was part of the Special Liaison Unit outfit. I think it were, I can’t remember its number, I think it was probably LSU8, and we were, the office was right down on the beach because you don’t get many tides in the Med, and we were billeted on the top of a cliff, and just some distance away, Air Marshall Tedder, as he then was, lived with his partner or wife, who I believe had been an actress, and we both had, he and, we chaps in our billet we had the same laundryman who washed our laundry, we had to pay him of course, and he hung it out to dry in the little hall that we had to pass through, so many times I walked into the underpants of Air Chief Marshall Tedder, in the dark you see, hanging up to dry. So, we, we were there, I was there until February 1943 when we were joined, and this is a bit of an interesting bit of the story which I mustn’t forget, I got a message through from Malta saying that, ‘Howard is going to join you awaiting his commission’. He was a sergeant in Malta and he was awaiting commission. So he was part of the Bletchley Park outfit and the following day Howard arrived, and prior to that, I believe they used to call him Shooter, Shooter Howard. He said, ‘Oh he’s a townie of yours’. So I said, ‘What do you mean?’ ‘Well’, he said, ‘He lives in Liverpool’, which is a fair distance from Oldham but that’s by the way. Anyhow, if you met Shooter, he was an amazing man. You’d say, ‘Do you ever, have you ever been anything with football, Bernard?’ ‘Oh yeah. I was with Liverpool reserves for three seasons but I never made it’, but then again, you’ve got to remember, he was only about twenty years of age. And then he got on to cricket. Apart from having played for the Lancashire second eleven, he’d never really made it and I think he’d done the cross bay swim at Morecambe about three times so they used to call him Shooter. But now I will tell you that when life got a bit easier I played football with him, and I’m sure the ball was laced to his feet, and at cricket, his bat was a barn door, and in Naples one day, some children were in trouble in the sea and Bernard pulled them out, and the very last man I spoke to on my demob, demobilisation in Lancashire, the last man I spoke to when I picked up my civilian suit, and I was going out through an RAF door for the last time after my service, there was a man putting some papers in a filing drawer and I looked, and it was now Flight Lieutenant Bernard Howard. So I shook his hand. He said, ‘Cleggy’, and I hadn’t seen him since Naples. Anyway, coming back to being in Tunis. So I was in Tunis until February doing the work of Bletchley Park and the work of Air Marshall Tedder, and I have a photograph somewhere of Air Marshall Tedder kicking off a football match on the 1st of January 1943. I’ve got it somewhere, love.
Other: I’m not looking.
SC: And in February I was waiting for a plane to go to Naples. The plane obviously arrived and I remember flying over Mount Vesuvius, which was still smoking a little, and on the 1st of February 1943, I touched down at Naples Airport. A name which I’ve temporarily forgotten and I was picked up and taken about fifteen miles to north between Naples and Casino, to a palace called Caserta Palace, and our headquarters were in this palace and I worked and slept in the top storey of this palace and we ate out meals in the mess, which was in the basement, and of course, it was the headquarters of Field Marshall Alexander and General Mark Clark. Field Marshall Alexander was the top man and of course, the British 8th Army was moving up the east coast, the eastern side of Italy and the, on the western side was the American 5th Army under General Mark Clark. We’ve also been back there to have a look at it. We worked on a three shift basis and so every third night was working through the night, which I believe upset my stomach for life but that’s by the way, and the work was interesting and I remember, which I’ve already mentioned, that each day we got a fodder report from Bletchley pertaining to the horse units that were held by the Germans confronting us across, I can’t remember the name of the German line now, but it went from Casino eastwards across Italy.
CB: Gustav was it?
SC: The Gustav Line, yeah, I think it was, and there was only one way past, of course, Monte Casino. I think it was called Highway 7 and so we were stuck at this time, the Army was stuck at Casino. We weren’t doing anything and in fact, we didn’t move for quite a long time. So we’re now in to February, and this fodder report helped the intelligence people to work out how many horses were in front of us. So from the number of horses, they were able to work out roughly the size of the unit, and that was that bit of intelligence information that I can remember. The [pause] front was fairly static. We didn’t move anywhere much for quite some time, and I carried on working up in the top room of this lovely palace. It is still there. And on the night of the invasion of Normandy, which was the 6th June, I was on night duty, and the wireless operator came in and said, ‘you’d better make clear the machine, Cleggy’. He said, ‘We have a 5Z message coming in’. 5Z meant you dropped everything and worked on it. So the wireless operator took the message down and quickly brought it in to me to be decoded.
[Phone ringing. Machine paused]
On duty at midnight. Actually, it would be about twenty minutes past two or maybe half past two, and I decoded this message from Bletchley Park, and it was from, it had been picked up in England and it was a message from a German intelligence source in Normandy, saying that allied troops were landing on the Point of Barfleur. So I applied myself and probably beginning to think that I was the first man in Italy to know that the landings had started, and of course the message was so important, it had to be delivered immediately to General Alexander and General Mark Clark, so I had the honour of waking up these two gentlemen at the small hours of the morning, probably half past two, 3 o’clock, and handing over the message to them. I obviously then went back to my work and that was that. Now, a few days later, the front in Italy started moving, because I imagine some German troops had been moved up into France, although I don’t know and I, we pushed on from Casino. Now I’m still obviously in Caserta, and I just went up for a couple of days to Casino because they were wanting just temporary staff at the unit there, we had a unit at Casino and then I went back to Caserta. June arrived. Sorry, June had arrived. About the middle of June, I got posted to Bastia in Corsica and there we were with a naval unit. I can’t remember its name but I do remember it had E-Boats, or whatever we called them, and whatever and they used to, from my memory there were a lot of French, there were some French troops there as well. I forget what they called them. Le Gore? Gore something? Doesn’t matter. And we were there. There weren’t a lot of troops there in Bastia and we worked again for Bletchley whilst I was there and on the, I was there quite a long time and, and on the 15th, sorry, the 14th of August, we moved out from of Bastia to the east side, sorry, the west side of Corsica to a little harbour then, which now is a big town called L’ile Rousse. L’ile Rousse. R O U S S E. And we were taken on to a landing craft and we waited till about midnight when we set sail, and we were part of the invasion of the South of France, and I landed at a beach a little town called Saint Raphael. At Saint Raphael, which in those days I remember was a lovely little place with houses built around a small harbour and we made our base in a hotel that had the odd name, I’m sure it was called Latitude 49. It had an odd name. And we made our headquarters there for probably about a week or a fortnight, I’m not sure. When we moved out and started moving north, and we’d now of course got into moving up with the American 5th Army and the French 1st Army. If I remember rightly, the American Army general was General Devers, and I can’t remember the name of the French Army general, and it was the American 7th Army, sorry, the American 7th Army that we landed with that had been held back in North Africa since the African campaign. I remember going through towns. The Army moved on very quickly from the southern landings, and I remember going through towns like Avignon, Orange, and we ultimately came up to Lyon, where again, although we’d been using mobile equipment at Lyon, we decided we’d stop for a short period and we made our headquarters in what had been a German Air Force training base, ‘cause I remember finding a pair of German officer’s gloves which I even used on my marriage and -
Other: Very posh.
SC: And we were there several weeks and I was going over, I think there are twenty six bridges. The main town of Lyon is a small, is an island and there are two rivers run around Lyon, the Saone and the Rhone, the River Rhone, and we’d already met with the American Army coming down from Normandy. So General Patton was now part of our remit and we made our headquarters just for a short period in Lyon, in this exhibition hall which, the Germans were very fond of making murals on walls and I remember looking at pictures of Messerschmitts shooting down Spitfires. And I must say the place was overridden with mice. You daren’t leave anything about, chocolate or anything, if you had any and so that was that. After a couple of weeks, we had now divided our headquarters into two. We had the forward headquarters which followed the Army up, and we had the rear section which, which stayed behind until it was clear to leapfrog over us to become the forward unit. So now I go into the, after two or three weeks, the Army had moved pretty quickly and that at Dijon, obviously, we’d met the American Army and they’d moved east towards Vienna, and the French Army had taken the more Alp side of France and made for Strasbourg, and so after Dijon, we come to a place called Vittel, which if any of you drink mineral water, you’ll know about Vittel water and Vittel had several big hotels being a Spa, and I’ve just momentary forgotten where we made our headquarters there and I was billeted in an hotel called Hotel Splendide. I must say it was worse than any boarding house I’d ever been in but there we go. Hotel Splendide. It was just taken over by the military as a resting place because we didn’t eat there. We ate somewhere else. We worked at the Hotel Spendide or, sorry, the headquarters there and -
Other: Do either of you want a biscuit?
SC: Sometime later, sometime later, I can’t remember exactly when, probably September time. Well, no, it would be later. October time we moved out and we followed the 7th and American 3rd Armies eastwards and we came ultimately to a place called Felsberg. I remember us going through Nancy, Metz, Trier and then a little way up into what was probably the Rhineland, where if you were eighty years old, you didn’t know whether you were French or German, and made our headquarters at this small town, then called Felsberg, and I’ve recently met someone in Yorkshire who came from Felsberg. Alright? Are we alright?
CB: Yes. Stop for a mo.
SC: Stop for a minute.
[machine paused]
CB: So you’ve been moving pretty briskly here, but all the time you’ve had a specialist role that is very confidential, secret. What were you actually doing?
SC: Well, we were a signals system between Bletchley Park and whatever was relevant for the units to know. So that I can honestly say, I knew more about the German Army than the British Army, and some of the information was very hot. If it was hot, it was what we called a 5Z. If it was something you could leave until tomorrow, it was a 1Z. So the number of zeds at the start of the message told you the importance of them.
CB: Ok.
SC: Does that fix it?
CB: Yeah. So here we are.
SC: Right.
CB: In to the Rhineland.
SC: So we’re now into the Rhineland, and can I tell a personal story?
CB: Sure.
SC: Of the Rhineland?
CB: Absolutely.
SC: Right.
CB: We haven’t crossed the Rhine yet.
SC: We haven’t crossed the Rhine.
CB: No.
SC: No. I think one unit had but we hadn’t. So we’re going up the Rhineland, and in the town of Felsberg, there was a big ex-French Army barracks, or German Army barracks, which it could have been and I always remember it had the term Casern written above it, and the town hall and the church were the main buildings, but I’ll quickly mention the church. Next to the church, when I got there, it was called Kirkstrasse and overnight it changed its name to Rue De Glis, and several days later, it was back to Kirkstrasse, and I suppose a few days later it was Rue De Glis again, and the town hall had a big sign up that said hotel du vis, and I noticed the sign went and it said Ratthaus. And so this went on, on and off because the nature of the people in the area, they didn’t know whether they were English, sorry, French or German, and at Cassern 99, we ate our food, and one morning with a member of the Royal Corps of Signals. Our outfit was very odd, our telegraphists were naval people, I, the cypher bloke was an RAF man and we also had an odd one in the Royal Corps of Signals, who also did the driving of the caravans that we moved in, and one morning, the sergeant I was with, we were going down for breakfast through this, what had been a parade ground of either the German or the French Army and the church, and it was a beautiful sunny day. Beautiful, although it was wintertime, it was early December. We noticed a light flashing from the church tower. Now of course, when you’re close to the front, you have people coming over called line crossers, who pick up information and they put explosives in people’s bits of coal, and they chuck them into coal heaps, so that when you put it on the fire, it goes up, and it was very useful for blowing up ammunition trains. And the, we saw this light flashing so he and I decided we’d better go and check it out, although he couldn’t pick it up because it looked like an Aldis lamp that was flashing, and so I remember us going into this church and I, at that time, I’d been with the American Army, I had a tommy gun and he had a revolver, and so I can remember opening the church door and I can hear it now, it went [mimics the sound of the door screeching] and we looked around and we saw a way up in to the tower, a circular staircase that was stone. And we crept up very quietly and I put my machine gun off the catch and he got his revolver out, and we ultimately came to a wooden staircase that ended on a wooden platform, with a door in front with an ordinary latch on, and we got on to the platform and inside we could hear the – click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. Not a lot of pattern to it, but click-clicking it was, and ultimately we decided we’d best go in and so I remember my partner lifted this latch with his revolver in his hand, and I rushed in to this little compartment in the tower with my machine gun ready. That’s it, yeah, and I felt like Al Capone and there was nobody in, and so we thought, that’s odd, and we looked around and it had leaded windows, and there was a loose window that was catching the sun in the draught. So I was rather pleased that I didn’t have to shoot anyone or get shot. So that was a little story in Felsberg and about two or three days later the, we moved up from there and we were using now the caravans for our equipment and everything, and we got held back in, I remember near a wood. I can’t remember the name of this place now and this is a story again in itself. I was on night duty, sorry, on evening duty which was an eight till twelve shift and I got in, I got relieved rather late, I was on my own in this caravan and I got relieved. My pals had gone back to get into bed and we had to walk a short distance through this wood and the, it was awful really, it was quite frightening. There’d obviously been some battle in this wood because there were chip marks on all the trees, I remember, and it was moonlight and I have a Lancashire dialect and I’m with the American Army, and every twig you trod on snapped like a rifle shot, so ultimately I came out in to this slight clearing on my way back to go to bed and a voice rang out, ‘Halt. Who goes there?’ So as I’d been taught, I replied, ‘Friend’, in a Lancashire dialect, and the American voice said, ‘What the hell do you mean, friend?’ So I sat there thinking, I’m going to get shot, and I said, ‘Well, friend’. So after a few minutes, which felt like hours, he said, ‘Advance, friend, to be recognised’. So I advanced with my tommy gun and there were two Americans there, and the one who’d spoken previously said, ‘What’s the password?’ because you have passwords up in the front areas. I can’t remember exactly but let’s say it was ‘frogs’. So I said, ‘Frogs’. So he turned to his pal, he said, ‘Herman, what’s the bleeding password?’ and Herman replied, ‘How the hell should I know?’ So now I get stuck with two Americans, and what had happened is an armoured unit had moved up and these two were looking after the tanks that had moved up. I hadn’t, they weren’t there when I went on duty, so after about two hours, the duty officer came around and approved my identity and they let me go. So that was, that was in a wood going north, now, towards Luxemburg. Now, at this particular stage, I get at odds with what I hear and read about the Battle of the Bulge. I always read that the Battle of the Bulge was done, it was the German Army trying to get to Antwerp by the way, to cut, to cut our supplies off from shipping, and they say it was done very quickly. They didn’t know anything about the German Army forming up beforehand. Now, I’ll tell you now, for a week I was putting buttons into a map, telling me that there was a big build-up of German forces in the Ardennes, and some of the messages coming from Bletchley were telling me trains were leaving from places like Leipzig and even off the Russian front. All being, pulling up to the area of Bastogne and I must have put several dozen of these pins in saying what German units were being brought together. Now, opposite them, in the Ardennes, was not a battle wise American Army and I can’t remember whether it was the 9th or the 10th American Army, but they weren’t battle trained troops. They were new troops from the USA and I watched this, and in my ignorance, I thought, ‘Oh dear. Well, somebody makes decisions above me’, but I certainly would have been bringing battle troops down, but anyhow I’ve always thought there was a serious plan that had been thought of by the upper echelons and I think that it was clever if it was so. So on the 17th of December, the German Army made its move towards Antwerp to cut our supplies off, and of course, as we all know, it was very successful, but of course, another thing you learn is that the longer, the quicker and the further you go, let’s say you have an armoured spearhead, the supply situation of ammunition and the fuel and the food and the medical supplies and even of water, become more difficult, so I like to think that it wasn’t an error that they made when I was pushing buttons in, but it was a real Army tactic to let them increase the supply lines, the length of the supply lines till ultimately, and actually what did happen, they ran out of fuel. And then all we had to do was pincer off little bits along this line of advancement, so if I recall, we moved in the British 2nd Army and the New Zealand 1st Army. We moved them in from the north to cut the first bit off of this line of Germans, and we moved up from the south with the 7th and 3rd Armies to meet the pincer movement, and then we went further back and did a bit more and a bit more until ultimately it was rather a disaster for the German Army. Are you with it? From there, I moved up to Narmer, which had been occupied, and from there I was one of the first to come on leave on the very first ship that sailed from Dieppe to Newhaven since the war started, where we were met by numerous paper reporters and given a bit of a welcome like a cup of tea. And -
Other: Oh dear.
And I had a fortnight’s leave. Went back to Narmer, which of course now was getting a bit more like normality, and about two weeks later, I moved to Versailles where I worked again for a Bletchley Park crew, and we were the main signals group for the German, sorry, the English and the American commanders, Eisenhower and Montgomery, and so we were involved with passing quite important information between even Winston Churchill and the other top people. In other words, we were the very, very secret signal system. So I was at Versailles until the war ended. Sorry, I’m telling lies, I was at Versailles for a couple of weeks and we worked in one of the palaces, and I then moved up on what was known as SHAEF Forward, Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force Forward. I moved up to Rheims or Rheims as the French would call it. Rheims, and I worked there, still of course part of the secret, secret signals unit. SLU8 if I remember rightly and we remember, I remember passing information that would more or less got Germany down to its knees, and I remember the German generals coming in to sign the peace, which they did, and I was part of a team that put some of the peace terms which wanted ratifying, putting them into code to come over to England so they could be ratified, and made absolutely clear what was wanting to happen. Coming to an end now. In, I suppose, probably whilst I’m still at Rheims, the war had ended on the 8th of May and a few days later, probably about two or three weeks, two weeks, I moved to Frankfurt to the supreme headquarters of the Allied Expeditionary Force and it was largely at that point, American. So I moved to Frankfurt and I remember standing at the Hauptbahnhof, the railway station in the middle of Frankfurt and looking around at the devastation, and there wasn’t a building standing, from my memory. I could see the countryside miles away, from the middle of Frankfurt. Now, we established another unit there at Frankfurt, in the headquarters of what had been the IG Farben Chemical Company, and we had our headquarters there and we were billeted just outside in an ex-German barracks, and of course the war now had only been over a week or ten days. We were told not to do much around the place, there wasn’t anything to do anyway. We were laid on our beds most of the time when we weren’t on duty, and then one night we were told we could move around a bit more, and I remember we got in a waggon, about five of us, and we went down the road a couple of mile, and we came to a small German hamlet. I think the name was Kubach and people actually came out and shook our hand and we gave the children, being with an American unit, we didn’t suffer from chocolate, or cigarettes or biscuits, we had them all the time, and I remember we gave the children chocolate and sweets, and the men we gave cigarettes to. It was a farming community and there was only, there was a bar and all they sold was apfelwein, which is cider, and I remember a Saturday night about two weeks after the war had ended, I was in this bar on a Saturday night and quite a number of locals were in, and I remember holding hands and singing songs and thinking to myself, what the hell did we have wars for when the ordinary public generally are friendly? And so twenty four years of age, twenty three years of age was I then? Twenty two, sorry. At twenty two years of age, there I was thinking what a waste of human life. All this. Through political misleading and I’m sorry to say it the Blair. In, I’m still in Frankfurt and after about a month the operation at Bletchley was closed and so I’m posted back to the RAF, and I’m told to report at a PDC in St John’s Wood, London, to wait to be called for a Far East draft, and I met up with a chap I hadn’t seen since North Africa by the name of Webb, who was a journalist in profession. Geoffrey Webb and he too was going on the Far East draft as was the rest of the draft. Draft number 998. So we all wrote because some had come back from East Africa and some had come back from Egypt. We’d all been overseas by then at least a couple of years, so we all wrote to the commanding officer, saying it was a bit thick that we were now going out to some do in the Far East because now Bletchley Park was finished, and so we went on leave and we were told to go back to St John’s Wood, where we were told the draft had been cancelled and we were all going to go to the continent. So I spent about five weeks in Hornchurch and then I moved out to Ghent in Belgium, when I was now back in the RAF as such. From Ghent I went to Hamburg, and I met up in Hamburg with a man who was now a wing commander, who I had been with in Versailles, and he too had worked for Bletchley, and we met up again and he had seen that I was taking several courses that were available to us. One was physics, one was mathematics and one was economics and he’d seen I’d been enrolled on these courses and we talked occasionally when I met him, and he was the education officer for 85 Group RAF. And after a few weeks with 85 Group, working on RAF cyphers, now he came to me, he said, ‘We have a technical college at a place called Buckeburg, down towards Hamelin and we have month courses there’, he said, ‘And I’ve fixed up for you to go on three courses, economics, mathematics and physics’. So I moved down to Buckeburg and for three or four months, the latter part of my service life, I studied economics, mathematics and physics.
AM: German?
SC: Sorry.
AM: German?
SC: Yes. And our, one of our instructors had been an ex-rocket scientist by the name of Herb Shabinsky, and I don’t know how you spell it but Shabinsky, it was, and the mathematics teacher was an RAF flight sergeant and the economics teacher was an RAF economics man. So I spent most of my final years, after I’d finished the three courses, I was posted about five miles away from the technical colleges I’d been at, to a place called Bad Eilsen, a small spa town, and the RAF headquarters, which was British [BAFO] British Air Force of occupation. Sorry, no it wasn’t, it was BAFO, BAFO Ops. BAFO Ops. British Air Force of Occupation Operations and we held it, it was held at a big hotel complex there. Being a spa, it did have these hotel complexes and I was there till, I think it was, late October 1946 when I left to get demobilised at an RAF station near Blackpool, back near my home town, and the last RAF officer I spoke to was Flight Lieutenant Bernard Howard, who I’d met in Africa. Shooter Howard.
CB: Full circle.
[Machine pause]
SC: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Thank you. Now, just, so, when you, so you come to the end of your service time because you’re demobbed and then what did you do?
SC: I went back to the mill where I’d worked in the office, and remember I was studying textiles and we made velvets and velveteens and fustians, which won’t mean much to you, and it was a big company called Thomas Mellodew and Company and my wife, who was fourteen, had just started work in the office and I, at that time, was twenty three. I didn’t ask my wife out for some years and I continued working there until 1951 when I had reached the, sorry, I carried on there and because I was studying textiles, I got made assistant manager in the weaving section, and in 1949 I was offered to go to college to train as a school teacher. Now, looking at the state of the cotton industry, which was closing down rather than building up, I thought maybe a school teacher’s the best thing so I went to college for twelve months to train as, to train as a mathematics and physics, general science teacher and I finished the course, but by this time I’d asked my wife out and we were courting. She was now eighteen. I was now twenty four, twenty five and I’d already reached the position of assistant manager of the textile industry and I was applying for jobs as a school teacher. The last one was in the Lake District and I thought what am I going to do because marriage was on the cards then and whatever and I decided I preferred the textile industry to teaching so I went back in to the textile industry, to a company that’s now long since gone called Fine Spinners and Doublers Limited, that owned a hundred, owned a hundred cotton mills.
[Phone ringing]
SC: So –
CB: Fine Spinners and Doublers.
SC: Sorry.
CB: Fine Spinners and Doublers.
SC: Doublers, yeah. A very big company and I was, the government at that time was trying to keep the textile industry going so they were paying for new machinery to go into these mills. Now although I was part trained and certainly qualified textile man, I had what was called a higher national certificate, I was also a part qualified accountant so I joined the company on those two qualifications to work on getting money back from the government to pay for this new machinery. So I went into mills. We decided what new machinery we wanted and as the installation went on, I applied to the government to get the money back, or some of the money back and so I was involved with thirteen of the one hundred mills which were all being reshaped with new machinery like we were talking about earlier, things were moved on and you didn’t need so much equipment.
CB: Yeah.
SC: And I worked there, I got married, and that was that.
CB: So that’s 1951.
SC: And that brings me to 1951 when I saw an advert in the paper by a company in London who wanted a manager for a carpet factory, and the carpet factory was in Kendal and I thought that would be rather nice, living up in the Lake District, and by now I’m married so I apply, and the company happened to be, the main headquarters in London. In Custom House which is now Canary Wharf area. So I applied and I got the job, and a month after I got married, I moved down to Barking in Essex and cycled each day through East Ham and West Ham, bits of Bow and whatever and into Custom House and I was, they wanted me there so I could learn a little about their industry because I was a velvet man, but note the similarity with what we call pile fabrics. Carpet has pile and velvet has pile and I was, it was at the time that, as you know from my previous statement, of Fine Spinners and Doublers for getting money back from the government to modernise. So this company which was called William Goodacre and Sons Limited. William Goodacre and Sons Limited had factories all over and several of them were in the Lake District and their main business initially was coir fibre fabrics. Coconut matting and they had their own coconut plantations on the west coast of India, which is probably part of it now is Bangladesh and up near Islamabad, and so I was there learning a little about coir fibre matting and carpets and whatever, when they were also opening a factory in Aylesbury, and very sadly the manager dropped down dead on the factory floor. So, me also being a manager of a mill they thought, oh whilst we’re waiting for the new machinery to go in Kendal, he can go up to Aylesbury. So I’d been married a month and I was told I was coming down to Aylesbury, so my wife and I lived in a bed and breakfast place, if that’s what it was. Somebody let us a room and we lived in this room and whilst I’m at Aylesbury, the chairman of the company dropped down dead and so at that point my life changed, because the company was taken over by others and I never ever got anywhere near the Lake District. I remained in Aylesbury, starting this new type of carpet and anyway, after about five years the industry, the carpet industry, was going down and they decided that I’d helped to get the company going and they didn’t need me anymore. I’d put the wages systems in and trained some of the operatives and got the company going, and after about five years, they made me redundant and it was rather sad. It was done in a bad way. I went to work and my wife rang me about 9 o’clock and said, ‘Your employment cards are in the post. You’ve been sacked. You’ve been made redundant’. So for the second time in my life, at the age of twenty nine, thirty, I’d been made redundant. So I just walked out of the factory. I didn’t go and see anybody or whatever, and about a week later, a man rang me up and he said, ‘I’ve heard you’ve lost your job there’. I said, ‘Yeah’. ‘Oh’, he said, ‘We’ve a job here for you’. And I’d only ever met the man when I went to meetings of local industrial people and his name was Pat Sage and he was a member of the Amateur Athletics Association. A very big member actually. He was very well known internationally and he was the personnel director at Air Trainers Link Limited. He said, ‘We’ve a job for you’. So I took the job, initially to try to govern the amount of labour making flight simulators. So I had an assistant and the two of us used to work together on a bit of equipment we devised to move labour about on different contracts, because obviously all these contracts, in the case of the flight simulator, lasted two or three years because just thinking, of a think like the Lightning fighter, which I remember it all starts off with one man whose known as the project leader, and then as the development gets on, we build up with technicians and people who are engineers and different types of engineers. Ophthalmic engineers and whatever, and so when the, when you get to the middle of the contract, you’ve probably an awful lot of people working for you but on that particular project, but as time goes on you start dropping them off. Well you can’t just pay them for doing nothing so you put them on other projects that are going at the same time. So my job was to balance the labour in these various projects, which I won’t bore you with, it is very clever and I partly designed it and the, I did that and at this time I start studying accountancy, because I thought, I don’t want to be dealing here all the time and I’m a part qualified accountant I might as well carry on, but my father-in-law, who’d come to live near us, he said, ‘Hey there’s some money in this’. And I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘Driving schools’. I had, he said, ‘Yeah, you can do it in your spare time’, because in those days, you didn’t have to have a qualification so my weekends and evenings now and, my early mornings are quite difficult. I used to get up at 5 o’clock. Until 7 o’clock, I studied accountancy. At 7 o’clock I would have my breakfast and make sure I always had a walk of about a mile or two miles and motor cars weren’t quite as popular in those days, but I worked in, lived in a place called Wendover, near Halton, and where -
CB: We know it well.
SC: Come from.
CB: Yeah.
SC: And I used to be picked up probably around about Stoke Mandeville with a pal of mine in his car, and he took me in to Aylesbury, down the Bicester Road, and at 6 o’clock in the evening, I came back to have my meal and I used to say to my wife, ‘What’s my first pick up?’ To go out teaching driving and she very often said Mainpoint at Halton, so I used to go up to Halton, and until 9 o’clock, I taught driving. Then I came home, went to bed and at 6 o’clock in the morning I got up and studied accountancy, then went to work, then came home, then went teaching driving and that went on. As I got a bit more advanced, I passed more exams in accounting side and that went on for probably a couple of years ,1951. And so, I’m now a three part qualified accountant, a driving instructor, which you didn’t have any qualifications for in those days other than RAC registered, and if I was to tell you I took the exams in London and became an RAC registered instructor and I have the certificate in my car to this day. So in 1961, I saw an advert in the Telegraph that said management consultants required for the industry.
Other: [unclear]
CB: Sorry.
Other: That’s alright.
SC: Management consultants required in the woollen industry.
Other: This isn’t being recorded.
CB: Yes.
SC: So I thought, I could do that. Blimey, my textile background and this background, I’m on a winner, so I wrote them, and at this time I was now, believe it or not, in charge of the cost office of the flight simulator company. So I had people under me. We were working out the cost of flight simulators, which at that time would be about half a million to a million pounds, so I’d had fairly good promotion. Well now I get an interview in Bradford, in a lovely big house called Piedmont up what was known as Toller Lane. It’s still there. And some days later they wrote to me, and said you can come, you can join us, this team of consultants, that was again partly paid for by the government for modernisation of the woollen industry, and at this point I may tell you, that in my life on assignments and employed fully, I have worked for seventy six companies. From, I joined the Bradford office of the Wool and Allied Textile Fibres I think it was called. Wool and Allied Textile Fibres. Yeah, I can’t remember the full name. Doesn’t matter but it’s now gone as has all the woollen industry and the, I first went on a course for three months to learn time and motion study and this I did. I did a three month course so now I’m also a qualified driving instructor, a three part qualified accountant, a Higher National Certificate holder of the Textile Institute and there we go, and at that point, I start going into mills to see if we could improve them and I went through quite a different number of woollen mills and whatever, and you’ll have to come back again if you’re really interested. I got involved in the Moors Murders in Saddleworth. All part of working for the woollen industry, and I worked with them for five years, four years when a pal of mine who was working with me said, ‘We’re mugs aren’t we?’ I said, ‘Why?’ He said, ‘Well you know what your salary is?’ I said, ‘Well, yeah’. He said, ‘Do you know what they charge for your work?’ ‘I haven’t a clue’, I said. ‘Well’, he said, ‘It’s something like five hundred pound a week’, which was a lot of money in those days. He said, ‘We’re better off starting on our own’. So we gave our notices in to our company and we started on our own, and I worked at about five places. He was the bloke going out to look for business and I was the bloke doing the work, and we were slowly building up and I was at one mill one day, he said, ‘What does your pal do?’ I said, ‘Well he’s out finding business’. He said, ‘Rubbish’. I said, ‘Why? What do you mean?’ He said, ‘He’s always on the bloody golf course’. So I tackled him with it and sure enough, I found out I was the money earner and he was doing the dip, so we had a big argument and I left him. I had no job. I just said, ‘Right that’s it. I’ll finish the job I’m doing’, and there we go, and believe it or not, a man rang me up from Slough, from Langley, and he said, ‘We’re wanting somebody like you Stanley’. I said, ‘What for?’ He said, ‘Well, we’ve got the job that would be just your job’. He said, ‘We want you to come and join the management services offices at Ladybird Children’s Wear’. So I was offered a good job with what was then a good salary, and I moved down here to Ladybird where I worked for fifteen years till it closed down. Story of my life, and I’m then fifty nine so I thought, what the hell do I do at the age of fifty nine, nobody’d want me. And believe it or not, I got two jobs in a week. Sorry, for about three months I worked for an accountancy firm in Maidenhead doing shop books and then I was offered two jobs in a week. One was at Hammersmith Town Hall, which I remember sitting an exam for, and luckily one of them was an arithmetic exam. I could do it in my head, you know, and I took, I went up to the other one which was in Maidenhead. Vandervells if you know them, or heard of them.
CB: Absolutely.
SC: Made bearings.
CB: Engineering. Yeah.
SC: Engineering. So for five years I went into engineering and I could see that the end was coming in the engineering, and in fact, when I was sixty four, I was made redundant for the last time and I thought, well what the hell am I going to do, and what did I do? I started a driving school. Took the government exams and I ran a successful driving school for the next ten years till I was seventy four, and I now get people coming up to me saying, ‘Do you remember me?’ And I say, ‘No, but where did you live?’ ‘ Oh such and such’. ‘I remember you now’. And so there we go, that finishes my life.
CB: Quite extraordinary. Thank you very much indeed. Very good Stanley.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Stanley Clegg
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-06
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACleggS160706, PCleggS1602
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
02:10:35 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Stanley Clegg was born in 1923 in Shaw, a small town near Oldham and started working at the Fern Cotton Spinning Company as an apprentice in the office at the age of 14.
He signed up for the Royal Air Force at the age of 18 in December 1941 and was called up in April 192 and posted to RAF Padgate to train as a Wireless Operator.
Stanley tells of his training at Padgate, including learning to use Morse Code, where he was unable to make 12 words a minute and was then posted to an RAF Radio Station in Elfin in Scotland.
He worked at offloading bombs and his job was to prepare them for distribution to units that they were to be used, however he then tells of his experiences there and what lead to his application to become the company typist.
Stanley tells of his interview to work for Bletchley Park, where he was based for six to seven weeks, and his posting to a radio station at Great Witcombe before being sent on embarkation leave. He tells of boarding a ship to Algiers and his experiences there and he also recalls his work in Algiers and Tunisia, passing messages along and learning of the Normandy invasion on D-Day.
He worked with British, French and American Army units as part of a signals unit. Once Bletchley Park closed, he returned to the RAF, using his later service life to study Economics, Mathematics and Physics.
After the war, Stanley returned to the mills where he worked in the office, studying textiles, taking his accountancy exams and working at various companies and after being made redundant at the age of 64, started his own driving school.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
France--Vittel
Italy
Italy--Naples
France--Reims
France--Bastia
Tunisia
Algeria
Algeria--Algiers
Alexander, Harold (1891-1969)
bomb dump
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Padgate
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/500/8391/PCrossleyD1501.2.jpg
e5e18390904d426fab27f09c93ed261d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/500/8391/ACrossleyD150904.2.mp3
760021ffe0f8cb3b6d12186322512cde
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crossley, Don
D Crossley
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Crossley, D
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Don Crossley (1924 - 2017, 1592825 Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew as a Lancaster wireless operator on 100 Squadron.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Don Crossley and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Gary Rushbrooke and the interviewee is Don Crossley. The interview is taking place at Don’s home in Upton West Yorkshire and the date is the 4th September 2015. Right Don, thank you. If you can just tell us a little bit about where you were born and your actual growing up.
DC. Yes, well I was born in South Emsall, and all these villages around here are very much alike in that they were based on the coal board, all private enterprise in those days and I was born in 1924.
GR. Right, and did you go to school locally?
DC. Never anything else other than the local school which at 14, you finished at 14 years old, and the first job I had was down Upton Colliery on a very mundane, dark murky job and that was coupling empty tubs coming off the chair. You know what a chair is – it’s the lift.
GR. It’s the lift.
DC. That lifts coal up and down, and that was the very first job which I hated. There was a man who took the tubs off the, off the cage and he was a brute, because he did nothing but swear at me and fetch this fetch that, not a kind word, I had no training I just went on.
GR. How old would you have been then Don?
DC. 14.
GR. 14.
DC. Yes very like that.
GR. And was that actually underground?
DC. Yes, in the pit bottom.
GR. Yes.
DC. Coupling empty tubs as they came off the chair, they went in different districts of the pit.
GR. Yes.
DC. And we were coupling them up going directly to each part of the pit they were needed if that makes sense.
GR. It does, and how many years or...
DC. Oh I was on there I can’t remember how long but I was on there a short time before I saw the lack of wisdom in going down the pit in the first place because I hated it.
GR. Right.
DC. So I got a job at local brick yard and that were fine, but I was only there a year when, when war broke out really or getting in that direction.
GR. And so you would have been about 16, 17, 16 when war broke out?
DC. I think I was a bit younger than that.
GR. Bit younger yes.
DC. About 15 maybe, yes.
GR. And so did you carry on working, in the first few years?
DC. I was at this brick yard, and then I went to have a little job where they made tarmac of all things for the runways they were putting down for the airfields.
GR. Oh right.
DC. Making tarmac, a stone quarry [pause]
GR. And that would have carried on?
DC. That carried on until I knew I was going in the Air Force, at least I was going to go in the services because the war had broken out by then.
GR. Yes.
DC. So.
GR. So am I right.
DC. Just went on in the quarry until I was old enough to go in the Air Force.
GR. I’m right that obviously when conscription you would have been conscripted if you didn’t volunteer.
DC. That’s right, as you probably are aware all aircrew were volunteers, there were no pressed men.
GR. No.
DC. Everybody was a volunteer so I was waiting my turn, but I never thought I’d get in, education requirements were relaxed rather alarmingly to get the numbers they wanted.
GR. Right, so did you, I know everybody aircrew were volunteers, so did you, was there literally an RAF recruiting office, did you, how did you volunteer for the Royal Air Force?
DC. They notified you, Ministry of whatever.
GR. Yes.
DC. When you became a certain age, and the interviewing panel consisted of all the three services and it was held where the Sheffield United ground, football ground, they took those premises over and confiscated them for interviewing different service personnel who were coming in for service, in the, in whatever service they chose.
GR. Right.
DC. Lets see now, so they asked me, there was a panel and they asked me to say why I wanted to join the Air Force., I said well, my brothers been at Dunkirk, he didn’t like the Army too much, I am frightened to death of water so I wouldn’t have gone in the Navy. I can’t swim yet, now, it used to be a requirement for aircrew that they had to be able to swim, I can’t put one foot in the water without being frightened to death of it.
GR. Right.
DC. They didn’t like it, but they said then why have you volunteered for aircrew then, why don’t you, and if you’ve volunteered for aircrew why haven’t you gone for a pilot. Oh, I said, that’s simple, I’m just not clever enough. I didn’t have the education, I left school at 14 I didn’t start till I was 6 so that’s not much of a recommendation.
GR. Right. And so was there any specific role?
DC. Yes.
GR. On the aircrew that you wanted to do or did they tell you...
DC. There was yes, naturally anybody would want to be a pilot but, I were living in cloud cuckoo land that I even got in the Air Force with my lack of education really, so they said well if you’re that keen why don’t you become a gunner. Well in those days gunners, the gunners were getting knocked out of the sky quicker than you could shake a stick at.
GR. Yes.
DC. So I told them that, I said well I want to volunteer but I don’t want to kill myself, not yet I’m still only 18 so if you don’t mind, they said well what would you like to be. I said I’d like to be a flight engineer or a wireless operator. A gunner is too quick, the waiting lists for gunnery, for gunnery recruiters were very quickly used up.
GR. Yes.
DC. And I was amazed when I got a letter this was in 1943, June 1943, to join the Air Force but first you had to have an attestation, go before the attestation board. I couldn’t even spell it never mind know what it was, I didn’t know what attestation was, but it was for three days at Doncaster where they had requisitioned the new Court building again for this attestation. They tested you on maths and English and things like that, and health gave you a very thorough health check.
GR. Check up, yes.
DC. So they said well the fact that you are still breathing shows you might have something, so...
GR. Oh good.
DC. So I was accepted, as a potential cadet and that required being sent to ACRC, that’s imprinted on anybody’s documents ,who went for aircrew, which stands for Aircrew Receiving Centre and the first one was at Doncaster where they did all these checks. Next thing I got was a letter saying go to Lord’s Cricket Ground you are posted as a potential wireless operator so I thought well this is good, there’s me on hallowed ground of the cricket match, cricket pitch, on which people like Don Bradman had put foot on.
GR. Yes.
DC. I thought I was very privileged just to have been on there.
GR. And they used Lord’s at St John’s Wood for most of the war didn’t they as...
DC. That’s right.
GR. For RAF.
DC. Yes. Everybody, when I, when I was called up, I went from Doncaster Station and it was funny you could tell people were going like I was. There were two lads stood talking to each other and I went up to them and I said “ Are you going to ACRC” and they both said yes and they were from Mexborough, it is about 10 miles from here, so at least I had got somebody to travel with and speak to, all the way to London where I’d never been out of my own bed before and there I was on my way to London.
GR. I was going to say that’s the first time you’ve travelled away from
DC. Yes.
GR. This area.
DC. Right, right I had never been away any days holiday or anything, just, just on my way to London, there’s me this loan miner, been a miner travelling all the way to the biggest city in the world.
GR. Yes and what happened after Lord’s? Did you come home or...
DC. After Lord’s Cricket Ground, training and swimming and doing there to my horror, you were posted to an ITW, Initial Training Wing, and these were where you’re training and your basic training for whatever trade you chose, we had been selected to serve in. It was... Getting back to the interview for going into the Air Force in the first place they were all cut glass people, we call them cut glass because they talked as though they had got mouthful of cut glass.
GR. Right.
DC. And that how I found the officers, but on reflection they were the right kind of people.
GR. Yes, yes. So what, what, what did training mean?
GR. Mean to you, where did you go?
DC. That was the first initial things was the ITW we were there for about 18 week, in which they taught you the basics about guns, Browning 303’s. I can remember one corporal teaching us and he said “you need Kings Norton Nickel Silver”, I said oh that’s a funny name I wonder what this is, and it was Brasso. He came from the Midlands and they must have called it a different title, Kings Norton Nickel Silver, that’s what you ask for in the shops.
GR. Right.
DC. Aye, I thought it was part of the course learning this word.
GR. [laughter]
DC. And it was the description, yes. Another one, why should this stick in my head, teaching you how a bullet leaves a gun. They said the bullet leaves, the bullet nips smartly up the barrel hotly pursued by the hot gasses which work with reflex to re-coil the mechanism first fired in the gun, and I had to learn that off by heart, and I thought well when I’m sat up there in a turret, if I’m going to be a gunner, that’s the last thing I want to be having to learn, at the end of a gun.
GR. Yes.
DC. It was a Browning, and it was a Browning 303, which is the same as a soldier’s rifle, the size of ammunition, and that was a bit of a handicap compared to the Germans cannon, and that’s a different story.
GR. It is. So you’ve done your initial training and...
DC. Initial training, and I failed on my passing out tests, I failed my, I didn’t quite get the speed which was 18 words a minute in plain language and 22 words on cord, and the officer had me in and said well you’ve failed, what are you going to do, are you going to go on the ground crew. I says no if I can’t be in the Air Force to fly, I’m not in the Air Force, I said I’ll go back down the pits I think. Anyway he gave me another test that afternoon and I passed it so.
GR. Oh well done.
DC. I did get in one way or another.
GR. Yes, so that’s training as a wireless operator/air gunner?
DC. Yes, let me just explain, on the original war, on the ex war, pre war aeroplanes, the gunner was the main man as regards all auxiliary duties.
GR. Yes.
DC. Wireless was part of his training so he was a duel role person; he was a wireless operator/air gunner.
GR. Air gunner yes?
DC. But, with the advent of four engine airplanes, the signaller as they re-named him, took on a different role, a bit more specialised, so they made him a straight signaller and its funny walking around a town with an S on. Everybody is acquainted with an N for navigator and B for bomb aimer, to a wing for a pilot they saw this S on my half brevet and said well what’s that for, I said you mustn’t touch that, that’s secret, that’s what the S’s meant, its secret. [laughter]
GR. And then later on they learnt it meant signaller?
DC. Yes, Signaller, it was a long training really for a signaller, and that was basically because you can’t rush learning the Morse code, it could only go at a certain speed, and you gradually built up and one problem I had, I didn’t realise at the time, you’re all sitting at different desks hammering away on a key with a pair of headphones on trying to increase your speed up to the required speed for passing out, [pause] where am I?
GR. Yes, well yes you were just talking about your Morse code training.
DC. Yes and the corporal instructor passed me and said “What do you think you are doing?” I said I’m doing about 10 words a minute, he said “Well not in this Mans Air Force you’re not, lad” he said “in this Air Force you’re sending with your left hand” he said “And you can’t do that”. The technique of sending Morse is the wrist action and you can’t get it with the left hand because you’ve got to, the Morse key is on the right hand side in an aeroplane and you’ve got to send with your right hand.
GR. Yes.
DC. So I says “Well I can’t I’m left handed” he said “Well by the time you’ve got a parachute on and a Maewest and different clothing thickness you won’t be able to reach the key never mind send Morse with it”, he says “you either send with your right hand or you’re off the course”. So I had to learn, forget my left hand and go up to speed with my right hand which took some doing.
GR. Yes
DC. And that is why you know me now as being ambidextrous.
GR. Yes
DC. Because I thought if I can send with my left hand, right hand, I can write with my left hand as well, so I wouldn’t have to write with my left hand and that served me in good stead later on.
GR. So you could do Morse, left hand, right hand.
DC. Yes
GR. And you can sign your name, left hand, right hand.
DC. That’s right.
GR. Very, very good, when...
DC. Go on.
GR. When did you actually meet your crew? How did all that come about, what happens?
DC. Well, just in between the radio school where you’re passed out from with three stripes, there was an AFU an Advanced Flying Unit, for wireless operators and that was on Anson’s, where you went up with a pilot and a navigator and that was what they called advanced training. We then went to OTU, which you were touching on, where serious flying started really and we did our crew assembly there, and you are probably familiar with every detail that tells you, that your not, your not selected you just go and mix with each other.
GR. Yes.
DC. You become a crew by consent.
GR. Yes.
DC. Talking to each other and saying yes, will you be my wireless operator, will you be my pilot?
GR. Yes, so did you ask the pilot, or did the pilot come and ask you?
DC. I was on an all Canadian crew my first, weren’t my choice it’s just that I think I was the only one left and we went flying on a night flying trip and I got some severe pains in my groin and so when we landed I went down to the hospital on the quarters of the airfield, and they said it looks like appendicitis, they took me to Doncaster infirmary to have my appendix out. So that meant that crew was without a wireless operator, because I was in there about a week and their training was ongoing, and when I come out they’d gone, and nobody ever to this day has told me where they went they just disappeared. I don’t know what happened to them, they were all Canadian apart from me.
GR. Right.
DC. And so how my crew came about, they’d already selected themselves they were just waiting for a signaller, a wireless operator and that turned out to be me and the adjutant had me in and said well there’s only two, two captains without wireless operators, and there’s a picture of either one, so you pick which one you want. So one was a Scotsman with a scarf round his neck a typical flying, fighter pilot, he liked the image, the other one was more like a vicar on the photograph and I thought well, there’s old pilots as you know and there’s bold pilots, and I said there’s no old bold pilots, so I picked the vicar looking one he looked a bit more steady and he had been flying Dragon Rapide’s, training navigators at Cranwell before he came to pick a crew up. Eygot they called him, he lived in Plymouth. [pause] What else can I tell you about him?
GR. So you’ve got your, you’ve got a crew.
DC. A crew of two Canadians, one Australian, one man from Cornwall, that’s the navigator, the pilot from Plymouth, and myself from Yorkshire.
GR. Yorkshire.
DC. A right motley bunch.
GR. Yep, and then did you then move on to Heavy Conversion Unit? or...
DC. Yes.
GR. Yes.
DC. After that flying that’s where we went, that was at Sandtoft, I don’t know whether you’ve heard of Sandtoft?
GR. I’ve heard of Sandtoft, yes.
DC. That’s a Heavy Con Unit, it was named Prangtoft, you know what a prang is?
GR. Yes.
DC. That’s a crash for an aircraft because there were a lot of accidents and they put it down to them being knackered crew, knackered aeroplanes so old, beyond fit for use on operations.
GR. Yes, because I, I must admit I heard somewhere that yes, the four engine aircraft they used at Heavy Conversion Unit was a lot of aircraft that had finished on ops or weren’t up to scratch for ops.
DC. That’s right, they were used.
GR. Yes and they were expecting you people to, to train on them.
DC. That’s right, yes that’s true, and it was a rough old place was Sandtoft.
GR. Did you have a prang free?
DC. Life?
GR. Conversion?
DC. A what?
GR. Did you have a prang free conversion?
DC. Oh yes we didn’t have any accidents.
GR. You and your pilot were alright?
DC. Yes we were ok, yes; you didn’t pick an engineer up until you got onto Sandtoft.
GR. Yes.
DC. Because there is no position in a twin engine aircraft for an Engineer, so that’s when we picked the seventh member of the crew up and he came from Birmingham.
GR. Right.
DC. He worked at the Austin factories in Birmingham before he came in the Air Force . [pause] what else can we tell you Gary?
GR. And then, so how, so from that very first day when you set off to Lord’s to finally finishing at Heavy Conversion Unit, how long did your training take? Roughly, six months, nine months?
DC. Oh about a year.
GR. About a year.
DC. I came, yes I went to Operational Training Unit in August ’44, joined the Air Force in June ‘43, so it would be about a year.
GR. Yes, So that’s a year of training?
DC. Yes.
GR. And then you were allocated a squadron, were you? Your crew?
DC. Yes.
GR. Your plane.
DC. We flew together at the Heavy Con Unit in that monster and then we were posted to 100 Squadron which is in 1 Group if you know the grouping numbers.
GR. Yes.
DC. Of aircraft, and we went to 1 group and we went to Grimsby, which was 100 Squadron.
GR. Yes. So not too bad that’s about, Grimsby is probably 50, 60 mile away from where we are so...
DC. Yes, and we used to get home whenever I could but you didn’t get a lot of time off.
GR. Yes
DC. And at Grimsby, [pause] it was a nice lovely run station it was great, there was a lot more freedom, a lot more tolerance.
GR. Yes, right.
DC. I did, in total I did 12 operations but, we did about 8 of those mixed with daylight and night bombing.
GR. Can you remember what the first operation was and what it was like?
DC. Yes, it was a bit rough. I don’t remember a lot of action though because I was listening to the wireless; my job was listening to the wireless, I just sat down.
GR. Yes.
DC. I can get my book and determine that.
GR. No, no, so what, what was it like though on that day, you obviously had been at the Squadron, I don’t know a week, two weeks and then you were obviously told you were going on operations. What did the crew feel like? Or what did you feel like?
DC. I would think somewhat apprehensive,
GR. Yes.
DC. To put it mildly, yes.
GR. Because by then there would have been, yes, the war was going into its fifth year.
DC. That’s right, it was getting close to the end of the war, but nobody knew that at the time.
GR. No .
DC. There were still enemy aircraft about and they were still, there was one funny thing at the briefing, they said that Jerry is sending up spoofs. I don’t know if you’ve heard of spoofs, but these are supposed to be Germany firing shells which gave the impression an aircraft had been hit, a big black cloud.
GR. Yes.
DC. Well I didn’t believe that, I thought they were real aeroplanes because why would he waste putting a gun together and putting a dummy bullet up the spout. I think they were aircraft blowing up.
GR. Right, I mean, perhaps, perhaps the Germans thought if they...
DC. Get the morale.
GR. Yes the morale if you saw lots of planes exploding around you.
DC. Yes.
GR. Yes, and morale.
DC. I just can’t see them wasting...
GR. Yes.
DC. Useless shells, well of course when its dark you don’t see them anyway because their black clouds, you just see the flashes.
GR. You see the, you see the flame inside that.
DC. Yes the internal, yes.
GR. But as you said earlier being in the, in the radio section you...
DC. Yes.
GR. You were enclosed, weren’t you?
DC. That’s right the one redeeming feature about it really was the astrodome, which was right alongside my seat, so I could stand on a step, put my head outside, virtually under the astrodome, because that’s where the Navigator took star shots and navigated.
GR. That’s right, yes.
DC. Yes.
GR. An incredible view
DC. All round, yes.
GR. Yes.
DC. In fact I’m deaf now, and I put it down to the effect of the engines because there is two either side of you, at eardrum level.
GR. Where the radio operator...
DC. Where the radio operator’s seat is.
GR. I have heard that, I have heard that before so yes, yes.
DC. Oh right, In that case I ought to get a pension for that [laughter]
GR. [laughter]
DC. We’ll ask the prime minister for a pension.
GR. Seventy years later.
DC. Actually its a bit more than that because, I was, just in passing I did twelve years, I had four war years, 1947 I came out, but then when the Korean trouble started, and the Berlin airlift, there were adverts for ex-aircrew to go back in the Air Force, because they wanted to staff it up again.
GR. Yes.
DC. There looked like there were going to be some problems so I went back in and the minimum I could sign for was eight years so that’s what I did, I went back into the Air Force in 1949.
GR. As a?
DC. As a Wireless Operator.
GR. As a Wireless Operator.
DC. On what is laughingly called Bomber Command with Lincoln’s.
GR. Right.
DC. Yes, I flew after the war; I flew with Lincolns in Lincolns, York’s, Hastings, [unclear] I mentioned Lincolns didn’t I?
GR. Did you fly the Washington?
DC. Oh yes three years flying the Washington, B29.
GR. That was the American bomber that [unclear] the end of the war, but then came back, came across here?
DC. Yes.
GR. And the RAF used it?
DC. The RAF used it and it was also the one which dropped the two atom bombs.
GR. That’s right.
DC. Which I thank, was most thankful for. It killed a lot of people did those two things but, what they did we were, it wasn’t decided quite what we were going to do at the end of the war, but there was rumour on all the Squadrons I think and certainly on ours, that we were going to go on Tiger Force which was Bomber Command going out and doing low level attacks on Japanese targets. That didn’t materialise because the Americans dropped the...
GR. Dropped the bomb.
DC. The V bomber, the...
GR. And can you remember was your Squadron down as Tiger Force?
DC. There was rumour on the station, but there was nothing proved, but the station [unclear] is that we only did about eight operations, and then the whole squadron was posted away from Waltham to Elsham Wolds.
GR. Right.
DC. Where 103 Squadron were domiciled.
GR. Yes.
DC. And we went there, and we only did four there so I did twelve in total.
GR. Twelve in total.
DC. But at the end of that number, 8 , 12 in total, our crew was picked to go on Pathfinders and we went down to Warboys and did a bit of a course on the 8 Group, 582 Squadron. 582 squadron saw the last Victoria Cross of the war in Bomber Command. He was shot down, a Captain Swales was shot, I can remember his voice quite clearly.
GR. Right.
DC. Directing them in force onto the target area, and he went very low and couldn’t get his height back and he bailed his crew out as I read.
GR. But he stayed in?
DC. Yes.
GR. Yes.
DC. And he killed himself.
GR. So then you, as you’ve just said you were going to do Pathfinder training but the war came to a close.
DC. That’s right.
GR. Then you came back into the RAF .
DC. In between that.
GR. Yes.
DC. I did, it was quite impressive numbers of prisoners of war we flew back from France.
GR. Yes.
DC. And Italy what they called Exodus, exercise Exodus.
GR. That’s right yes.
DC. And that was flying them from [unclear] France, and then we went on to what they called Exercise Dodge, flying the troops back from Italy, by along the south coast on the Adriatic, still with the Lancaster, with 24 passengers.
GR. Nice job that one.
DC. It was a good job yes.
DC. We’d get hooch from one of the local shops, hooch very cheap at that time the official changing rate of Lira for Pound was three thousand we could get 18 thousand [unclear] pound note on the exchange rate on the street.
GR. [laughter]
DC. So did a bit of lubricating of the back passages as it were. [unclear]
GR. [laughter] And you finally left the RAF in…
DC, January the 1st 1947,
GR. 1947 but then you went back in?
DC. Went back in March ‘49.
GR. Right.
DC. For the?
GR. Berlin airlift and Korea .
DC. Yes.
GR. When did you finally come out of the RAF?
DC. 1956.
GR. 1956.
DC. And I got two hundred and fifty six pound, for the eight years.
GR. For the eight years, as a thank you.
DC. That’s right, yes.
GR. [laughter] What did you do then Don, what did you do with the rest of your life?
DC. Goodness me, I had a variety of jobs, one unpaid was 25 years as a parish councillor.
GR. Right.
DC. That was a waste of time with the politics as they are. I had a variety of jobs making houses, building houses, all labouring jobs with me you see.
GR. Ah I see.
DC. I’d no trade, and there aren’t any wireless operators down a pit.
GR. No.
DC. So, and I ended up back down the pit twice like I’ve, like I’ve put in my little memory book, I can mesmerise bung [?] fly really, wasting time going down those jobs, because I ultimately ended up I had a very good job, I went mending televisions for one thing and putting aerials up. But a very good job I ended up with was with the Central Electricity Generating Board. Subsequently became a supervisor in the technical department in the instrumentation areas and it was a very good job.
GR. Good.
DC. Lovely.
GR. Yeah, Well I’ll bring the interview to a close and this has been recorded and hopefully in four weeks time today you’ll be attending the International Bomber Command Centre memorial at Lincoln for the unveiling.
DC. That’s my intention.
GR. So I’m sure we’ll see you there.
DC. Good, all the best.
GR. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Don Crossley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-04
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:34:29 audio recording
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACrossleyD150904, PCrossleyD1501
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Don Crossley was born in South Emsall in 1924. He tells of his time before the war working at Upton Colliery before joining the Royal Air Force. He volunteered and trained initially as a wireless operator / air gunner. He tells of his experience at the aircrew receiving centre and his training at the initial training wing before his assignment to an operational training unit for crewing up. After serving in a heavy conversion unit, he was posted to 100 Squadron. He flew on Ansons, Lancasters, Lincolns, Yorks and Hastings. He was in Pathfinders force with 8 Group, 582 Squadron, and took part in operations Exodus and Dodge. Don was demobilised in 1947 but returned to take part in the Berlin airlift and also in Korea. He finally left the Royal Air Force in 1956. Don tells about his post war life doing manual labour and then a job with the Central Electricity Generating Board.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Korea
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1947
1956
100 Squadron
582 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
Anson
B-29
bombing
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lincoln
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Grimsby
RAF Sandtoft
recruitment
Tiger force
training
wireless operator / air gunner
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/539/8775/AYoungM150515.1.mp3
fbd69f68e247e629198a234c42efa918
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young, Margaret
M Young
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Young, MD
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Margaret Young who served as a wireless operator in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: This is an interview with Margaret Young in Heckington on Friday the 15th of May 2015, I am the interviewer I’m Dan Ellin. So Margaret could you start off by telling me a little bit about where you were born and how you grew up and your schooling and that sort of thing?
MY: Right, well I was born in Leith, which is a suburb of Edinburgh, in 1925, went to school there, secondary school went to Bellevue school and from there went to work in Princes Street in R W Forsyth’s, in the ladies shoe department and from there when I turned 18 I had to register and if you didn’t volunteer to go in the services the authorities could send you anywhere, and as I didn’t want to go to munitions or the land army I decided I’d like to be in the Air force [laughs]. So I went and registered and joined the WAAF that was just after my 18th birthday which was in 43. Then I was called up to go to an initial interview early in 44 then after that I was sent for and told that I ‘d been accepted and I had got a railway warrant to take me to Wilmslow for initial training, that was in march 44.
DE: Why didn’t you want to join the land army or one of the other services?
MY: Well, I did want to join the Land Army but my mother and a few others talked me out of it because they were country people and they knew it was very hard work [laughter] and it was the uniform that attracted me [laughter] to be wanting to join the land army, as I got older and got more sense I realised that I did the right thing by joining the WAAF.
DE: You didn’t fancy any of the other services the ATS
MY: No
DE: Or the WRENS?
MY: No I don’t know why blue has always been my colour [laughter] as you can see.
DE: Quite. So what was going through your mind on your train journey to Wilmslow?
MY: Och, I can’t really remember but it must have been a bit strange because I had never been away from home before and there was only my mother and myself because my father died when I was two and a half, and there was only the two of us, and it was strange to be going away, but it was adventurous at the same time, and I was, sometimes when I got there I was a bit homesick but its something you just learn to live with.
DE: So can you remember what sort of things did they have you doing or happened to you at the recruitment centre?
MY: Well first of all we were kitted out with our uniforms, and we had injections which weren’t very pleasant because in those days you had a needle put into your arm unscrewed and you left the needle in and you moved on to the next doctor re-screwed another injection and gave you another dose, and we also had a vaccination as well thats – and also we had what we called FFI’s Free From Infection, to see if you had anything in your hair or any skin disease, you had all those medicals. We had a foot inspection as well to make sure our feet were alright [laughter] for marching and that was it. Different days we had different lectures, how to conduct yourself as a WAAF and when to salute and it was the badge on the officers hat that you were saluting, not the officer and how to salute the long way up and the short way down. [inaudible]
DE: What happened if you got these things wrong, these lessons wrong?
MY: Well I suppose they would take into consideration we were raw recruits and probably get a telling off I suppose, I never got one [laughter]
DE: And the FFIs how did they work? Was it –?
MY: You had to strip to the waist with – and go through different - and be examined by doctors to see if you were alright.
DE: Aha, and was this individually or – ?
MY: Well no you just all queued one behind each other and went forward and there were different doctors in little cubicles and that was it.
DE: Can you remember how long you were there at the reception area?
MY: I can’t, I think it was about three weeks I don’t think it was any longer than that, but I can’t honestly remember.
DE: Did you make any friends?
MY: Oh yes you make friends there but not lifelong friends because you were all going in your separate directions, when we went we were- . That’s where they decided what trade you were going to be and I was picked out to be a wireless op. I don’t know why, maybe, I knew the Morse code because I had learnt that when I was in the Guides, and whether that helped me or not I don’t know, but they decided that I was to be a wireless op. So then, at the end of our training we were all taken, sent on, to our different places -. I was sent to Blackpool that’s where the wireless ops did their first three months of their training it was a six months course, and we did the first three months in Blackpool and the second three months at RAF Compton Bassett in Wiltshire.
DE: Ok, can you remember whether there were any tests or interviews that you had to do to pick which trade you were going to be sent for?
MY: Yes we had, we had some pictures of designs where you would pick out something but I can’t really remember much about them, that’s, you know, they must have just decided, we were either going to go to that sort of, I don’t know, trade or what I don’t know but that was it.
DE: Did they take your choices or your opinions into consideration or was it just – ?
MY: Not, not really they just more or less told we were going to be. Yeah!
DE: How did you feel about becoming a wireless –
MY: Oh I was quite happy yeah, I was quite happy about it, I didn’t know it was going to be such a long course at first, but yeah I quite, I enjoyed it.
DE: Before we move on and talk about further training, what was the accommodation like at the reception centre?
MY: Oh it was just wooden huts held about thirty odd people, because we had some bunk beds as well, I happened to be on the top of a bunk bed right at the very end, so I had a good view of everything [laughter] and that, but then when we went to Blackpool we were in civilian accommodation. We were in Reeds Avenue most of us were in Reeds Avenue and that, that area of Blackpool and we used to march every day from there to the Winter Gardens where we had our Morse school. There was the ladies in one section and the airmen in the other.
DE: And how did that training work? What was a typical day like?
MY: You went in the morning, you got your Morse lessons, learnt the Morse code and learnt how to tap the machine and then we had procedure lessons and we also had technical lessons, where we learnt how to put a plug, an electric plug together, and the procedure one was how messages were written down [pause] it was alright, gradually we used to march around from one – because there was only the wireless school in the one place, the other classes were held in anywhere that was empty, a shop that was maybe empty. I don’t know how true it is but we used to go to Burtons and they always said that’s how I went for a Burton or I’m going for a Burton but I don’t know if that’s true or not but we were told that.
DE: Aha
MY: It was different shops and then we marched along the prom, doing our marching and sometimes we did our PE lessons on the beach,
DE: So were you – ?
MY: So it was like a big long holiday [laughter]
DE: Was it the summer time you were there then?
MY: From April, yeah April, May, and June and July so it was summer time yeah.
DE: Ok
MY: Then we got leave that was the first leave we got after half way through the course, before we went on to RAF Compton Bassett.
DE: How long leave did you get?
MY: Probably about 10 days.
DE: Did you go home?
MY: Oh yes! They gave us warrants railway warrants to take us from –
DE: And what was travelling on the trains on a warrant like?
MY: Well it was alright, but the trains were very packed and there weren’t so many about then they were few and far between and they were always packed mostly with service people.
DE: I have read an awful lot about people who hitchhiked, did you ever you ever do any hitchhiking?
MY: Yes, from Compton Bassett we did some hitchhiking up to London or - , but not very often because the doodle bugs were about then, but we did, I’ve been on the back of a Queen Mary which is a long – with aircraft bits on it, you know, oh yes we did a bit of that, but never on our own we always made sure there was two of us [laughter] at least, there, I don’t, I can’t remember if that was drummed into us or not, it may not have been but we decided my friends and I that we wouldn’t do it on our own.
DE: So did you start to make friends when you were doing the training?
MY: Oh yes! You had lots of friends, well all the people on your - , there is a picture there, of our class that one up there forty, forty [inaudible] that was about the size of the class and these were our instructors along the middle. So there is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight – [silence] there’s about twenty of us in a class and the instructors were –
DE: Did the instructors look like the civilians?
MY: Some of them were civilians yes, they did mostly the procedure and the technical [pause] but they weren’t all, there were some RAF ones as well on different courses, you see, because you stayed with the same instructors throughout your course.
DE: I See. Did you have any time off perhaps in the evenings in Blackpool?
MY: Yes, yes, yes we were out most evenings but we didn’t have the money because we were paid fourteen shillings a week and we got paid once a fortnight, and that was to pay for your NAFFI cups of tea and your cigarette ration 20 big cigarettes and 20 little ones, woodbines [laughter] and your chocolate ration, you got once a week but you had to buy that and you had to buy your soap and any other cleaning stuff you needed you know, for buttons [?] you had to buy all that yourself.
DE: But your accommodation and your food was - ?
MY: Oh yes accommodation was free, you got your mug and your cutlery and you carried that around with you.
DE: What were the billets like in Blackpool?
MY: They were alright but they were very small the room I was in had been a big front room and the bay window was divided in half and half of the room was two girls in it, and the other half of the room were two WAAF in it, and you could have, there was a wash hand basin in our half but it wasn’t in the other half, so we had the two single beds and the wash hand basin and there was a little cupboard that you could - , but we didn’t have many clothes because we just had our uniform and the rest went into your kit bag which didn’t hang up.
DE: Ok, so what happened to all your civilian clothes then?
MY: You didn’t take them with you, you went with what you joined up in, when you first went, then you took them back when you went back on your leave.
DE: Ah, ok, so you had your first half of your training in Blackpool and then you moved to [talks over the top] RAF Compton Basset.
MY: RAF Compton Bassett. Yes in Wiltshire.
DE: Was that different sort of training or- ?
MY: Well no it was further training really, it was, really you were getting your words up, you started up with about four or five words a minute and you got up to twelve to fifteen, sixteen words a minute, so it was really the advanced end of your training,
DE: So it was more practice?
MY: Yeah, yes, and that was wooden huts, big wooden huts there.
DE: Did you go there with the same class?
MY: No, no, no, there, from there we were, oh yes we did from Blackpool to Compton Bassett yes, some of the girls didn’t come because they didn’t pass and they were FTd, further training,
DE: Aha
MY: For two weeks so they would join another group so you did get some new ones in with your lot.
DE: Were you worried that you wouldn’t pass?
MY: I was worried about the procedure because we had a civilian instructor and when you’re eighteen you will laugh at anything, but I think he must have had indigestion [inaudible] because he was always eating white tablets and kept frothing at the mouth and we laughed at that instead of listening what he was saying half the time [laughter] but we got there in the end, so that was it that was the end of the training.
DE: So then what happened?
MY: Then we got our postings, we were asked where we would like to go, and I just said ‘somewhere in Scotland’ because I wanted to get back up to Scotland [laughter] and I did get up – they sent me to RAF Banff [?] which is right in the north of Scotland in the Merry Firth, but there was only myself went there at that time so I was the only new girl that went. But new ones kept coming in from other places you know, and we had Nissan huts there, Nissan huts, they held I think it was either fourteen or sixteen I can’t remember, three, six, nine, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, and a black stove in the middle and a toilet at the end so you didn’t have to go out to go to the toilet [slight laughter]
DE: Luxury then? [laughter]
MY: But I enjoyed it we worked in what they called the WT cabin and we worked shifts, we worked a four watch system there, where you went on duty at eight in the morning till one o’clock then when you came off at one, you went on again at midnight then you did from midnight till eight in the morning, then you had from eight in the morning till five o’clock that next afternoon you went five till eight then the next time you went on from one till five then you got a day and a half off in between your rota, your four watches.
DE: That’s quite, quite stressful I would imagine?
MY: It was, because we worked all night, and then of course you had to go for your breakfast, so you, or a meal when nobody else was going and the cooks in the cookhouse didn’t care very much for us going in at those times having meals, but they were good they were good yeah, you know they used to pull our legs and say oh you’re a nuisance and what have you, maybe a bit stronger words than that but [laughs] but I’m not going to say them [laughter]
DE: And then I suppose you had to try and sleep at the wrong time of day as well?
MY: Yes, well there were erm [pause] Wire- I can’t remember what they were called them, there were huts where you would perhaps watch people on them, you were on watches at slightly different times, but I, when I went there they were full and I had to go into a normal hut where the people came in at lunchtime and if you were trying to sleep you just couldn’t, you had to wait till they went back to work in the afternoon and then you would get another sleep, it was, you just put up with it.
DE: So were you tired and hungry very often then?
MY: Not, I wouldn’t say we were hungry because we had the NAFFI which we could go to and that’s when I first had cold chip sandwiches because you would get somebody to bring you in, the NAFFI closed at eight o’clock at night and you’d get somebody to bring you in a plate of chips and two slices of bread and butter and of course you had that when you wakened so they were cold, the chips were cold so you had cold chip sandwiches before you went on duty at midnight, but even that was, you ate them and quite happy to eat them, that’s when the cooks weren’t giving us anything to eat at that time of night, so, that was it you just got on with it.
DE: So your shifts, you’re either doing a long eight hour shift or a short four hour shift?
MY: Yes, three or four hours it was, the midnight to eight o’clock one was the hardest one.
DE: So were you on your own listening to the - ?
MY: No there was some, one two, there was at least three sometimes four WAAF and there was a Corporal in charge the people were in the building, there was the telephonists and the duty officer and that they were all there. Because if we got messages in they were in code and they had to go to the decoding officers to be decoded.
DE: And you, you just listened to Morse?
MY: We just listened to Morse till the war finished and then I was writing down as usual and I realised that I was writing plain English into these five, these little squares, and it was one of the pilots sending a message to say that he was escorting a U boat into Sullom Voe, in the Orkneys, and that was the first time I’d had English over the [inaudible] –
DE: So normally you were just writing down jumbles of meaningless letters?
MY: There was always four letters and a number in each block of five and you had to put them in these blocks, because these four letters and a number meant a certain phrase.
DE: Oh I see, yes
MY: Which we didn’t know what they meant,
DE: No
MY: And they were probably changed every so often.
DE: Did you get any bother with getting the, getting the code words wrong?
MY: I don’t know, nobody ever said, we were never called, at least I was never called in to say that I had taken down the wrong things, so I don’t know about anyone else, I never heard of anybody else being [pause] taken in.
DE: Was it, was it really busy would you sit there and it be message after message or would you sit there and nothing – ?
MY: Well it just depends, if they were out on a strike, because it was called the Banff strike, and we had a Norwegian squadron and they went up to the shipping and the Norwegian fjords because they knew them like the back of their hands, you know, and, but sometimes that was in sort of the five, maybe, no that would be during the day time, they would go [?] because I don’t think they went out much in night, but you did get the odd message through at night, because there was only two of us on duty at night.
DE: So if it was quieter what would you do to pass the time?
MY: Sleep under the bench [laughs]
DE: Was that allowed?
MY: Yes, well the corporal was there you see, and if they only had two machines and there was four of us there on duty, he let, he halfway through he would, waken the ones that were sleeping under the bench get up, and change over.
DE: But when you were on duty it was sit at -?
MY: It was sit, you sat there and if you wanted to go to the toilet you had to ask permission and somebody else would take over while you went.
DE: So I imagine you are sitting there with headphones on?
MY: Yes
DE: Do you have those on all the time?
MY: Yes
DE: Was there, was there a background noise, or was it – ?
MY: No it was just quiet, yes, [pause] yes, no it was quiet, but you had to be, you couldn’t just sit there and go to sleep and nod, because you just were waiting in case something came through.
DE: And how long were you there for?
MY: Ah [pause] I can’t remember, I was there on VE day anyway, I was there a while before and awhile after, because we left, after the war finished we were made redundant, the wireless operators, because they had far too many and it was in plain language they didn’t need us, so many of us, because we had a satellite where we had another lot of wireless ops at Fraserborough, and of course they all came back and they had far too many, so twenty of us were posted ten of us went to Hednesford, and twenty of them came to Cranwell, I was in the twenty that went to RAF Hednesford and that’s where the 104 PDC [personnel dispatch centre] where we demobbed the men mostly from overseas. There again we used to work all night because they would come in, go into the wooden billets and they had a corporal in charge of each hut, and he would bring a list of the names and numbers and the rank, in, and while they were being seen to we had all the documents delivered into our office and we had to go through all these documents. First of all put them in alphabetical order then when you, the list came in you had an idea where you could look for the documents in the A’s or B’s or C’s.
DE: And these are their service records and things?
MY: That was the service records, sometimes they were full of sand, because most of them had come from the middle east there was sand all over the place [slight laugh] out of the boxes and we then, after we got the documents we separated them into a pile for the pay, pay room, the medical service then they went to another pile for the demob suits.
DE: And they had you working overnight again?
MY: Yes, because sometimes a boat load, if a boat load came in, there was well, thousands, two or three thousand of them, and we had to get the documents ready for them going to, what they called the machine, to go through the machine in the morning, with the [inaudible] and corporals in charge.
DE: So how long did the demob process take for them then, was it - ?
MY: About three days it was very quick by the time, sometimes they went out in two it depends, if there weren’t such a big lot a big amount of them, they could sometimes two days they would go through quicker.
DE: And were they billeted at the - ?
MY: Yes they were all in wooden huts, yeah.
DE: But with a quick turnaround so they were there for a couple of days then, then they were civilians?
MY: That’s right and then you’ve got the rail, we had to write out the railway warrants where they were went, were going to on leave. Now here's an incident once, there were some Welsh came in and they wanted us to write down where their railway warrants were going, and we had to ask how to spell them because they was double L’s and what have you and there was one group there must have been about a dozen of them, and they were with a sergeant and they got nasty with us there was two of us doing this, because we had to do a red copy and a blue copy, one went with them and one stayed with us, and they got nasty with us and my friend Betty, she says ‘I’m not standing for this I’m going to get the flight sergeant’ who was in an office across the road from us so she disappeared and left me with all these men [laughter] however when she got over there the flight sergeant wasn’t there but the wing commander was, and he said ‘what’s the matter?’ and she told him and he came across and he stopped their leave for twenty four hours, he says ‘my girls work here night and day to get you men out as quick as possible’ and he says ‘and you stand there and start swearing at them because they can’t spell where you’re going’ he says ‘so you can just go back to your billets for twenty four hours’ Well we were frightened to go out [laughter] in case we saw any of them [laughter] but we never saw any, there was no trouble, but that was just one incident that happened, you know, but most of the time the men were that pleased to be back they were jovial and joked with us and that, you know, because we were the first white women they’d seen since they were over abroad [laughter] sometimes.
DE: So were they flirting [inaudible]
MY: Oh yes! Most of them flirted [slight laugh] but you just sat there and took it, you know, laughed and that was it, got on with your job, because you couldn’t spend time with them because there was so many of them, you’d be too busy getting them out and through you know, you just had to get on with it.
DE: What about the men in your earlier postings did you have anything to - ?
MY: Not, not, not really I did, we, I mean we used to go to the dances and things but you just danced with the airmen and that was it, some of the girls made [pause] friends, but I’m afraid I wasn’t one of them, not till I met my future husband at Compton Bassett and he was a regular in the RAF, and was redundant the same as me and doing office work.
DE: So you got posted back to Compton Bassett then?
MY: No that’s when, no, well we did later on because he was a regular and we got married in Blackpool because at that time you had to be three weeks in one place before you could get married, well being in the service you couldn’t go home or that you had to be married there and that’s why we were married in Blackpool. Then they gave us leave for our honeymoon because they wouldn’t, you couldn’t get leave together, [inaudible] we were working in the same office but when we were married they relented and let us go, where we went up to Scotland back to my mother [laughter]
DE: So where did you meet him?
MY: At Compton Bassett in the office [pause] then he as I say he was a regular, he did thirty three years in the RAF and when he was demobbed [pause] now I was going to – what was I going to tell – Yeah when I was demobbed he not long after we came up to Scotland he was sent on, he was asked if he would be, go on his commission and he and he went on his commission and he passed out as a flying officer and then he finished up at RAF Digby as a flight lieutenant in the signals unit, that [pause] that was it. I was demobbed after we got married; yeah I got demobbed early because you could get out earlier if you were married. But as I say I went back to Compton Bassett he was posted to Compton Bassett and that time I went back into officers’ quarters instead of wooden billets, which was a bit different [laughter]
DE: So what were the officer’s quarters like?
MY: Well they were very nice, yes, we had three, nice three bed roomed ones, they were semi, semi attached but very nice and we had a nice little patch which was good.
DE: So did you follow him round with all the postings then, where did you go?
MY: Most of them yes I went to Singapore, for three years then we came back, that’s when we came back from Singapore we went to Compton Bassett then from Compton Bassett we went to Aden and we did two years in Aden then from Aden we came up to RAF Digby and that’s where we retired from in 1968 and that’s why I am now living in Heckington. Well that’s it
DE: It’s probably a bit of an odd question but, what do you think about the way the war and the RAF have been remembered?
MY: Oh well I think now it’s been good that they are doing all these things like VE day and VJ day and Battle of Britain day, they’re doing it again because its Seventy Five years in September from the Battle of Britain, and I’m sure they will be doing quite a few things then and I think the school children are learning more about it now than some of the youngsters did, you know, just after the war their history and that was further back but now I think the schools and that the children are learning a lot about it, and I think it’s good.
DE: Did you ever have any reunions or anything like that?
MY: I have WAAF, I joined the WAAF Association in 1988 I think, yeah 1988, and we have had reunions and AGMs, and we started out with between three and four hundred, we’re down to now, I went to my last reunion and AGM in April this year and we went to Coventry and there was only about fifty of us there [pause] but they have allowed, now the RAF, the WRAF and the RAF if any of the ladies want to join and some of them have joined in with us but our standard was laid up in the church in London St Clementine’s and that’s where our standard is now the WAAF standard, [inaudible] Can I help you with anything else? I think we’ve covered nearly everything.
DE: I think you are probably right, we probably have, let’s have a look at the things I’ve scribbled down. I’ve got a couple of questions. One you were talking about going for a Burton, I mean can you just explain that?
MY: Well if you fall, or if you anything odd happens, you say oh you’ve gone for a Burton, but that’s, it’s just a saying it’s like the chads, you know, when you had the wall with the little man’s face above it we called them chads, little imaginary men, [laughter] that did all the things that upset people [laughter] that was it, that was going for a burton that was - , but as I say I don’t know how true that is, I’ve heard it once or twice in different areas so it could be true, because it started right away back then you know.
DE: Where there any other funny sayings or slang terms that were unusual for the forces?
MY: Not really not that I can say on here.
DE: [laughter]
MY: No, no there weren’t any, we used to sing different words to some of the songs but I can’t remember them, you made up your own words sometimes, because we were a right mixture of people in the billets, you know, came from all different places and I mean some places I had never heard of before, when you’re only eighteen you don’t, you just live in your, before you joined up you just lived in your little community.
DE: Yes
MY: And that was it, geography, I must admit I always liked geography at school and I still like geography, I still like to find out where places are and what have you. That, there’s a picture there me at [?] at RAF Cranwell college at the Battle of Britain last year there’s, one, two, three veterans, four veterans and a veterans wife then the air officer commanding of the college and another one there and I was invited as a veteran there last year and I’ve had a another invitation this year to go to the seventy fifth one on the 11th September. So, and that’s through being in the The RAFA, the RAF Association which we belong to, I belong to the Cranwell branch.
DE: I see, you were saying how such a wide selection of different people from different places, did you always get on?
MY: Mostly, yeah they were mostly, yes, and some were older than me because I was younger you know, some had been in two years longer than me before I’d joined up, but no we got on very well together, I never found it difficult. One friend I kept in touch with because she was another Scot she was the one that went in, in to find the flight sergeant and found the wing commander instead, you know about the men
DE: Oh yes, yes.
MY: At Compton Bassett, and I kept up with her till she died, she lived up in Scotland, I visited her, it would be about five years ago she died, and I visited her probably two years before that you know, and that was the last I saw her, but she was the only one that I really kept in touch with because we’d been together for quite a while we were at Banff together then she live up, not far outside of Edinburgh so we did keep in touch, but she’s gone, and the other lady that I said, I met her at one of our reunions and she has died but that’s the one I went to school with.
DE: Oh I see,
MY: She has died [pause] so that’s it.
DE: Ok then
MY: Do you think we’ve covered everything?
DE: I think so, I’ll probably think of lots of more things to ask as soon as I [laughter] walk out the door.
MY: Yes [laughter]
DE: So we’ve been chatting, well you’ve been chatting for 42 minutes
MY: Have I?
DE: Yes, thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Margret Young
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-15
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AYoungM150515
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Margaret Young grew up in Scotland and worked in a ladies shoe department. She volunteered for the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force at the age of 18 and served as a wireless operator. She talks about the medical and reception centre and training, learning Morse code and the wooden accommodation huts. Once trained, she was posted to RAF Banff, and talks about the shifts and accommodation. She was later posted to RAF Hednesford, where servicemen were demobilised.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Linda Saunders
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Staffordshire
England--Wiltshire
Scotland--Aberdeenshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:42:13 audio recording
aircrew
demobilisation
ground personnel
love and romance
military living conditions
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Nissen hut
RAF Banff
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Hednesford
training
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/565/8833/PEvansDC1602.2.jpg
86b05a1f1363b47b738718b23de31580
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/565/8833/AEvansDC160714.2.mp3
c2f2de6871b83db8ca8bdb70d47cefb5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Evans, Derek Carrington
D C Evans
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Evans, DC
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Derek Carrington Evans (1924 - 2017, 2207080 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 625 Squadron. Also contains photographs of model Lancaster and people.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Derek Carrington Evans and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM. Ok so this is Annie Moody and I am with Derek Evans today. Derek was born in Doncaster he’s living in York at the moment and I am undertaking this interview at the Offices of Worans in Doncaster.
DE. He was born on the 20th of June 1924.
AM. 20th of June ’24, erm and todays date is the 14th of July 2016. So, Derek.
DE. I am 92.
AM. You’re 92, getting on a bit, but still.
DE. I am getting on a bit, yes.
AM. Derek tell me, you have told me when you were born, tell me a little bit about where were you born and tell me a little bit about your parents?
DE. I was born in the village of Doncaster, that’s Edlington, I was born [laugh] about twenty past nine one Friday morning and, eh my sister went to school and she came back and she got a new brother, and eh I don’t know what her reactions were but I heard plenty about it at the time [laugh], yeah eh, yes there was two of us. I had a brother as well who died em but em, there was Doris and me who lived and she died just a few years ago with rotten cancer and she was as good as, as healthy as me, which seemed anyway.
AM. What did you, what did your parents do Derek?
DE. What did?
AM. What did your parents do, what work did your dad do?
DE. My father, my mother was a housewife, my father was an electronic, electric engineer and em pneumatic. That’s em, he worked in the collieries installing the machinery.
AM. Right
DE. And em, and he served in the first war and em he got some medals for that, ‘cause he, one day he heard somebody crying in no mans land, he went over the top.
AM. So he was in the Army?
DE. Yes, he was in, first of all he was in eh [pause] thousands in the Middle East, what do you call it, the Dardanelles and he got away with that. In fact, he brought a shell back that had burst near him [laugh] and I have still got it somewhere.
AM. Still got it.
DE. And eh, eh, then he was, oh he was quite an authority in the eh Scout Movement, and eh if, if they haven’t been destroyed, I’ve got letters from Baden Powell to him and from Lady Baden Powell to him yeah, he helped in the formation of that.
AM. So were you in the Scouts?
DE. Oh I was.
AM. Tell me a bit about your childhood?
DE. Well, I went to school as an infant and, eh it was at Edlington, and eh I think my father must have had a bit better job than a miner because we lived in the top village and it was new, it was all new that, but I had to go down to the old village to school. And eh I used to go dressed, I had a little suit and a tie and did I get some hammer from the scrubbing sods down there, and eh the only thing I remember about that is I got hold of one of these lads and I pulled him up to me, and me hand went up like this, somebody got hold of it. It was me father.
AM. This was at school?
DE. Coming home from school em, yes, and I had waited for that devil because he had taunted me quite a bit. And eh I, I cured him.
AM. Your Dad stopped you thumping him?
DE. Yeah, I would really have done something [unclear], knocked him about I would.
AM. So that was the village school, what about when you were older and in your teens?
DE. That’s eh, one day my father came home from a colliery, I learnt after it was Bentley and there had been an explosion there and he was filthy, his clothes were in rags. And em, I heard him say to my mother, ’that’s the last time I go down the colliery’, and eh he gave his notice in and eh he had no job. And then he managed to get a supply of electrical goods, he was an electrician he knew all about that job and he was selling those, he used to go round the streets selling them and he built a good business up and then the war came. He lost all his contacts and we had to come out of our nice house and get a cooperation house, council house, and eh I went to, I then joined Doncaster Council.
AM. Let me just ask you, so what age were you when you left school then, ‘cause you would be fifteen when the war started, you left at fourteen.
DE. Em.
AM. So what was your first job?
DE. I got a job taking papers around and eh I gave my mother my first wage packet of five shillings, yeah. And eh and then I got eh, and then I left school at fourteen and I was on the streets.
AM. On the streets looking for a job you mean?
DE. Well walking about looking for a job and somebody said to me, “oh, you know Taylor of Colbridge’, do you remember them? ‘looking for an errand boy’ so I went in there and said, ‘I have come for that job’ and they gave it me.
AM. So what did you do, what did you have to do, what did that consist of?
DE. Well first of all it was delivering orders of books round Doncaster, eh and inside three months there were three other errand boys in there, and inside three months I was in charge [laugh], bighead [laugh]. And em, I er carried on there and eh the boss said, ‘would you like an apprenticeship?’ I said, ‘Yeah I would’, so I took an apprenticeship with them at ten and sixpence a week. Ten and six a week, which was a good wage in those days.
AM. A good wage indeed.
DE. And eh I carried on there and er and at six er at sixteen em, I was a junior there and at sixteen I was senior. All the folks had been pulled out in to the War and they left me in charge of that ruddy shop, d’know, at sixteen.
AM. So we are 1940at the beginning of the war, the first year of the war.
DE. Oh yes it would be, wouldn’t it?
AM. Yeah.
DE. And eh I run that all right, eh there was a lot of turnover I maintained it, eh I think it was, about thirty thousand a year, which was a lot of money.
AM. A considerable amount.
DE. I was in charge of about six women [laugh] old women, they were all twenties and thirties and they were all old to me of course, but I ran it, I carried on with it and eh part of there was printing you know, and of course I learned the printing job. I was a stationer, printer and bookseller officially when I came out of there. Well, I was eighteen, at seventeen, I heard they wouldn’t take aircrew unless you volunteered.
AM. Why did you want to be aircrew particularly rather than Army, Navy.
DE. Well, I thought it was a bit cleaner than being shot in trenches [laugh].
AM. True.
DE. Well, me father told me about his, he did fourteen to eighteen in the Army and he was in France, he was in Passchendaele. He used to tell me all about them actually and somewhere in that house of mine, I have got a recording of him telling the tale of the Red Baron being shot down over the trenches yeah.
AM. Baron Von Reichthoven.
DE. I’ve got that somewhere.
AM. So you are getting to seventeen, they wouldn’t take aircrew unless you volunteer.
DE. And I volunteered at seventeen, I went down to the Royal Air Force Recruitment Centre and got signed on.
AM. Right, where was that in Doncaster?
DE. In Doncaster, yeah, well my interest [unclear] out the place. My interest in aircraft started, oh, in the thirties because I was only a kid and my father used to take me to see the aircraft at Finningley, and in those days, you could walk on and walk up to the aircraft you know and I used to talk to the aircrews that were hanging about them, and eh I got really interested in, and they were, now then, Vickers Vimmies, em oh I can remember them over, I will tell you what they were later on, Vickers Vimmies.
AM. It’ll come.
DE. Aye?
AM. It’ll come
DE. Oh, it’s there yes and the Handley Page, eh the Handley Page, it had the gunner on the, in the front nose and the two engines were at the side of course. And eh, I had a look round and I was dragged into one, one day just to show, show me and I remember they had thirteen there and they went off on a [unclear], what did you call it eh, eh countryside eh, travels so. And eh thirteen took off and they got two back they crashed the rest of them.
AM. This was before the war?
DE. This was in the thirties, when the Vickers Vimmies and Handley Page Heyfords, Heyfords, em yeah and from then I have been interested in aircraft.
AM. So, you are interested in aircraft and you want something cleaner than the trenches, so off to the RAF Recruiting Officer.
DE. Yeah
AM. So they signed you up, but then what?
DE. Well eventually of course, my eighteenth birthday turned and they called me up into the Air Force and em I got, I got into the Aircrew Receiving Centre, Aircrew Receiving Selection Centre and it was in the Zoo in Regents Park [laugh].
AM. Had they, at that point, done any testing or anything to decide whether you were going to be aircrew or Ground Crew.
DE. Wait a minute.
AM. Sorry, going too fast.
DE. Typical woman rushing away [laugh].
AM. I apologise.
DE. And eh we was in the eh, the melee of being selected and, and, and I passed the exams for Pilot and they, after a week or two, we were square bashing at that, we were feeding amongst the monkeys [laugh], the zoo and eh one day some sort of Air Force bloke, I didn’t notice what his rank was in those days eh, ‘does anybody know morse code?’ I said, ‘yes I do’, ‘why?’ I said, ‘because I have got a radio station meself and with another bloke, we rented an office, an office we were using in the middle of Doncaster for half a crown a week’ [laugh], and we got all the gear in there. And eh this bloke said, ‘we are short of recruits for radio officers, do you think you could, like to transfer?’ ‘Yeah, I don’t mind, it’s flying, I’ll come’, and I then went down into the radio school and eh I spent twelve months there, came out, it tells you in the book there, came out and qualified a radio operator.
AM. So it was twelve months?
DE. I am sure it was twelve months yeah.
AM. Don’t matter, so what was that like, tell me a bit of what the training was like, easy, hard?
DE. It was hard yeah, it was not particularly hard for me actually em, they could fire morse at me all the days of the year and I could take it then, it’s a good job ‘cause when I was flying on operations, I had, it was all the time morse was coming in from headquarters em, eh Bomber Command headquarters. Go on, you tell me?
AM. No I can’t remember.
DE. And eh it all came in code and you had to be taking it down, writing it out and I could take twenty words a minute then [laugh], and I used to say to the Pilot, ‘oh there is diversion on, we are diverted when you get to such and such a place’, and that is how a radio operator used to perform and weather reports used to come through.
AM. So you finished your training as a wireless operator, what happens next after that.
DE. Well, I got, I don’t know, I was selected and I was given a course of radio navigation and it was a month, and I had a what I call them ‘sprog pilots’, they had just qualified and they wouldn’t trust a good pilot with me [laugh], and I used to fly all over the country and tell him where to go and what city he is going to do. I did that for a month, I did it successfully and I was passed out as a radio operator one then, and then I went to gunnery school and I went to, majority of them didn’t but I was selected to go to Gunnery School and I have no idea why.
AM. Not as a trained radio operator, not when you were already a trained wireless operator.
DE. Well in Bomber Command eh, there were more WOP/AG’S because if anything happened to the rear gunner, he was shot, my job was to crawl down there, open the doors, chuck him out into the open space and get in, sit in the guns [laugh] and that was the procedure yeah. I went to gunnery school, I have got the results there, they are good results and eh [looking through papers].
AM. I am just flicking through the log book for the tape to find where we are up to.
DE. Let’s have a look at it please.
AM. So we are looking at, we are looking at the initial trips here and the results of the initial courses.
DE. You are nowhere near the operation here.
AM. No, I know, no, no.
DE. Ah this is it look, extra syllabus.
AM. So we are May, June ‘44 and we are on the gunnery course.
DE. Yes
AM. And the results of the gunnery course are above average a very keen Cadet.
DE. [laugh] and when I were in gunnery, I used to be in the top turret of an aircraft in the mid upper gun turret, and eh they used to fly, now then a master, or an em, they are Masters aren’t they? Single engined training aircraft towing a long drogue and we had to hit it. You had to fire at that thing coming over you.
ME. A bit like clay pigeon shooting, not.
DE. Oh, I have done plenty of pigeon shooting.
ME. Oh later on. So, I’m looking at the fact that you were given extra syllabus training, given in lieu of bad weather, which cancelled flying.
DE. Yes, ah and that’s Dominies, isn’t it? Yeah, Domini that’s it. The De Havilland Domini was a twin engined twin winged aircraft I don’t know whether you -
ME. No.
Unknown. A biplane.
DE A biplane yeah, it was a lovely aeroplane that, lovely.
AM. So you have done your WOP training, you’ve done your gunnery training. What next?
DE. Eh after gunnery, I don’t know what they call it, it was advanced flying school, oh that’s advanced gunnery course.
AM. You moved onto the Operational Training Unit I would guess.
DE. No not yet.
AM. No, was that later?
DE. [unclear] Wigton that is on the West Coast of Scotland and I don’t know what we were supposed to be doing there, have I made notes of it? [pause] It’s just the details of what we were doing, I don’t know. Anyway, that’s Advanced Flying School, and then I went to No. 18 Operational Training Unit. How I got to there was, we were paraded one morning and eh this corporal came out and he said, ‘I am going to read out names and say a place where you are posted to. You will find that some is going to Leuchars in Scotland’. The bloke next to me said, ‘I live at Leuchars’, he said, ‘the others are at Finningley at Doncaster’. I said, ‘and I live at Doncaster, what is your name, I will swap you names’. Well, this Leuchars name came up, put me hand up, join the queue for Leuchars. No, I, t’other way round, yes, and when it was all, come out in the wash, I was going to Bomber Command, so I thought I had dropped a clanger here, and he was going to Coastal Command, so anyway I joined 18 and we were, we were put in a big, we were put in a Hanger with four, and there was a desk in there and there were four candles. The bloke sat there he re [unclear] they got a seventy-two scale Spitfire if you like and he went, and you had to shout out, and I got everyone right.
AM. Right, so what were you looking at?
DE. I was looking at the aircraft.
[Unknown]. Aircraft recognition.
AM. I’ve got you actual recognition of aircraft, I’ve got you.
DE. An eh, Peter Russell, who was and who’d come and he was in this hall, and there was about four hundred of us and eh he came to me and he said, ‘would you like to become my radio operator?’ and he had done a tour.
AM. How did you know he had done a tour.
DE. He told me.
AM. Ok but he had a little brevet as well that shows that they had done a tour I think. He talks about that in his book that maybe at crewing up, people were happy to join him because he had already done a tour, so you are probably going to be safe with him.
DE. Yeah, he was good looking too.
AM. Right, so he decided.
DE. Couldn’t keep the girls off him.
AM. So at crewing up then, there’s you.
DE. So, there is a Pilot, Colin Richardson, Navigator, Derek Evans the Radio Operator and Titch Haldred the Rear Gunner, is that it?
AM. Yeah, I have got them written down.
DE. Where do you get that from?
AM. The book.
DE. Oh, I see and I did quite a fair lot, quite a lot of flying to a lot of places.
AM. And this was on Wellingtons.
DE. Wellingtons, we used to go wandering around the Continent you know and eh and from then -
AM. Sorry to interrupt, so at this point there is five of you, ‘cause you are in a Wellington and you are doing your training on Wellingtons based in, where were you actually?
DE. Finningley.
AM. You stayed at Finningley.
DE. Eh well we used to use the satellite at Worksop.
AM. Yes, I had scribbled down Worksop.
DE. Finningley was the base and em, and then what, what happened then. Oh, went to eh, four engined aircraft and that was Halifaxes.
AM. So this is heavy conversion unit to get you used to big boys.
DE. Yes, and therefore we had two crew, we had an engineer and a mid-upper gunner.
AM. And I think I’ve got the names here. Tim Cordon was your Flight Engineer and Tony Large was your Mid Upper Gunner. So you picked up your extra two and got seven of you.
DE. No, I am telling lies, he was a Dubliner. I said to him, ‘what the hell are you doing here?’ he said, ‘you don’t think you are fighting the war on your own’ [laugh].
AM. So you went to Heavy Conversion Unit I think at em, Blyton.
DE. Blyton yes, it was the base was Lindholme, but the airfield was -
AM. Was at.
DE. Yeah.
AM. And that was initially on Hali, on old Halifaxes.
DE. Yeah.
AM. So what was the wireless operator bit, room, not room, area like in the Halifax?
DE. Ruddy awful, in fact I, I wouldn’t say it terrified me but it frightened me to death.
AM. Why was it ruddy awful?
DE. Well, there was a staircase and em, the Pilot sat on the top of this staircase and I sat directly under him, in trouble and the aircraft spinning, do you think I got down those stairs? No, no, you were pinned in, no, you had no room, I had full radio gear there. I could do all the nice flying, I could do everything you want to but I wouldn’t have like to thought I was getting in operations in it. Anyway, then we went to Lancaster Finishing School at Hemswell, an eh -
AM. So how different, tell me how different was, the Lancaster was to the Halifax.
DE. Well, it is like coming, sitting in this room instead of a back passage somewhere yeah, you could walk about in a Lanc.
AM. And the wireless operator area was better?
DE. Well, there was the pilot, there was the bomb aimer, our front gunner and then there was the pilot and then there was the navigator and the radio operator, we sat together and that was a flight crew. You couldn’t take a four engined aircraft off without having a pilot, navigator and a radio operator yeah, three and eh good job as well, I will tell you later on. I pulled them out of the drink.
AM. Got some stories. So, you done your heavy conversion training, what did that consist of? Just basically up there?
DE. Circuits and bumps.
AM. Circuits and bumps.
DE. And familiarisation with the aircraft of course, but the radio gear was the same so I didn’t need any conversion to that because I knew that backwards.
AM. For your pilot of course, who was moving onto a completely different plane, to fly from what he had been used to on his first tour.
DE. Yeah, oh he used to fly Hudsons, that’s an American twin engined originally a civil aircraft and eh yeah, I’ll come to him in a minute if you like? [laugh].
AM. Sorry, where am I up to, we know where are you, so you have done your circuits and bumps, your heavy conversion training, got your crew.
DE. And then got posted to a Squadron, 625 Squadron.
AM. Yep, at RAF Kelstern.
DE. Kelstern, and the CO met us, because we were two crews posted there to replace two lost last week. So he says, ‘Good evening gentlemen, the only thing we can guarantee here is two weeks life. The crew, the other crew took off with us on the first operation and was lost’. They had one life em I went, well we went as a crew we went on, we went on, we did a tour, we did.
AM. When he said that to you though Derek, you are twenty years old.
DE. Twenty.
AM. You’re twenty. You have not done your first operation yet and he is telling you you’ve got -
DE. A years . .[unclear].. well
AM. I can’t imagine how that felt or what you thought about that?
DE. Em, well we were a little bit bravado, we said, ‘well we will bloody show you’ [laugh] yeah well Peter had done two years operational flying before that and our first operation was to Essen.
AM. Was this the, on your first one, well first of all, you start off, your pilot has to go as second dicky and not all of you went with him.
DE. I don’t know if I went on his second dicky or not, I can’t remember, but he normally took, this is the old, this is the experienced taking the new crew, they actually, they were the, he used to take, the old pilot, used to take the new pilot as second pilot, and he used to take his own navigator and his own rear gunner. So I wouldn’t go on that dicky, second dicky. I did a few of those when we took a new crew on ops.
AM. I’m just looking, so when you did your first one
DE. Was Essen.
AM. Right, let’s find it [pause]. Circuits, here we are. So, the very first one was HLB?
DE. High Level Bombing.
AM. High Level Bombing at Essen. So, tell me right, so this first operation you’re going to Essen, what was that like from the beginning. As in, you know, you are going, you start off, it’s going to be a night, night flight.
DE. Will you close your ears a minute [laugh]. Em the Battle Order, that’s an illustration of the Battle Order in there, it was posted in the mess in the morning and we had to go for breakfast, and eh we thought oh, tonight so what we did as a crew, at ten o’clock we used to go down to the aircraft and we used to go through it like a dose of salts. We used to make sure everything was working and the first thing we did was to say to the ground crew, ‘what’s loaded on here?’ and they used to say, ‘eighteen hundred gallons’ or ‘two thousand gallons’, and of course, if it was two thousand five hundred, we used to say, ‘a long one tonight’. Then we em, went back and had a meal and then we went to kitting out. Put our ‘chutes on and whatever we were going to wear. We used to find out by devious means the temperatures, ‘what are we going to wear?’” So, and then we went into briefing and eh I went into radio briefing, navigator went into navigator briefing and so on, and gunnery and then we had a briefing altogether where you saw the wall, and we used to think ‘bloody hell’ [laugh]. And eh we used to then get in the bus and took out to dispersal, where we climbed in our aircraft. And by ritual all aircrew before an op, had to wee on the wheels.
AM. That is better than doing it up in the air isn’t it?
DE. Yeah, you diverted me a little bit
AM. Sorry.
DE. It’s all right. It was really cold, I mean I’ve flown in minus fifty I, I, actually in conjunction with this, I’ll have to write you a story about Essen, I can tell you.
AM. Tell me what the story is?
DE. I can’t really without thinking about it but eh, Essen, we were up through the flak barrage but we didn’t enquire, we didn’t, we didn’t involve running into a fighter, and we came back on that and eh. That’s where that poor devil lost his life on that first flight of the next crew that we were replacing. So that was Essen done. Come back, you got a cup, a mug of cocoa and half a mug of rum.
AM. A mug?
DE. You could treacle it out the rum you know, if it was naval rum. I didn’t drink, it sort of thawed you out a bit ‘cause you come back from these raids, and I will say it quite bluntly, you were terrified. And em, and then of course you went to your bed and you slept very soundly.
AM. Did you speak with each other about how terrified you were or did you keep that to yourself?
DE. No, no, we, no, no, we talked about it. Because one was saying, ‘did you see that fighter, did you see that, did you see that going down on so and so’. Oh no, you portrayed the whole lot together because the pilot had a different view all together over the rear gunner. I had a different view of them all because I had the radar and I could, I could see every aircraft in, in the Bomber Stream.
AM. Is that the Fishpond?
DE. Fishpond, oh I have saved the, with that I have saved the crew on numerous occasions where I have said to Titch, in the tail, em, ‘aircraft two thousand yards astern, don’t know what it is but it looks quite small and it is going fast’, so we presume -
AM. So it is not a Lancaster then.
DE. It is not a Lancaster, well I can see all the lights around us em, because I used to say to the pilot ‘increase your height by about two hundred feet, ‘cause there is somebody converging on us’, and it would be another one of the stream, ‘cause we had a thousand in the stream you know. And he would raise the aircraft and you would feel the wash of something passing underneath and that was going to be a collision had we not had the knowledge. Mm, so, and then I would say to the, I would say to Titch in the tail, we called him Titch, he was about my size actually, and eh I would say to him ‘seventeen fifty yards, fifteen hundred yards, twelve hundred yards, you are now coming up to a thousand yards’, and he would say ‘I can see him’ and so, and once, I don’t know which. Well I do, I have got it somewhere down eh, I heard him say ‘bloody hell, there’s four of them’. and so they came in and eh the first one actually went up and he set a Lanc on fire above us. We saw them bale out and floating down and it exploded, and all the flaming petrol landed on the ‘chutes and they went, and the next one he decided to have a go at us. He went out to, he went out to starboard and was coming in like this, and I was counting out to Torrey in the top turret, ‘he is just above the horizon, em and is in within oh, he is coming up to about nine hundred yards now from us’, and I said to him, “he will, he’s a fighter and his guns point forward, he’s got to level himself up with us’. and I kept saying to him, “he’s levelling up, he’s levelling up, he’s levelling up’, and I heard Torries’ guns going brrrrr and this thing, so he got him, shot him down [laugh]. And em, the other time, our rear gunner never shot anybody down but he knew where they were, so they didn’t come in his range, but twice Torries came in because once a Junkers 88 came alongside us and he was stalking a Lanc in front of us, and he didn’t see us. Then I heard Torrey, and I heard Peter shout, ‘who’s firing?’ He said, ‘it’s me, oh I have just hosed a Junkers 88 down’. He must have killed the crew ‘cause it went straight down. Aye, I didn’t like to see that just the same, whether it was the enemy or what, but I do know if it hadn’t been the enemy, it would have been us.
AM. Exactly, exactly.
DE. And em, oh this went on night after night.
AM. Can I just ask you about that Cologne trip. So, it is your second one and I believe you, if I have got this one right, is this one where you had to land somewhere else?
DE. Oh, we were going, we were running in on the target and there was Kenny the Bomb Aimer just shouted ‘steady, steady, steady, steady, bombs open, bomb doors open, steady, bombs gone’, and the old Lanc, you know, we used to be at about seven or eight, yes, five hundred foot, it used to rise you know and then eh [pause], well heard, it was a god almighty bang, crash and lit the whole aircraft up and I thought [unclear], and eh we levelled up, Peter caught it again and we got it flying and [pause], no at that time he said, ‘I lost me, I haven’t lost me bombs’, so we went round again like stupid idiots, and we let our bombs go and him at the front said, ‘I haven’t got any bomb sight, the shell has hit it and destroyed our bomb sight’, so some wag in the back shouted, ‘let’s dive bomb them then’ [laugh] and we did, we used Cologne Cathedral as the sighting point and missed it.
AM. Was this the one where the compass and the chart didn’t match and you later found out that the compass had been shot up actually.
DE. Well what happened was that big flash [unclear], a shell had burst next door to us very, very close and had shaken all the navigation equipment that was fixed to the walls, onto the floor and Colin was groping round looking for it, and em we are flying along and em, I suddenly said to him, ‘Colin, you are running on about 230 degrees’, and I said ‘if my memories right, that’s heading for the Atlantic, yeah West’, you see, ‘no I’m not’. I said, ‘you are’, anyhow, I am arguing with him and I knew he was wrong.
AM. How could you tell?
DE. I could see all the bomber stream, I could see the fighters attacking them on the stream.
AM. On the fishpond.
DE. On my Fishpond and eh I saw the bomber stream converging north, and us converging west and eh anyway, Peter the Pilot he said, ‘what are you two arguing about?’ I said, “well we are off course, we should be wanting to swim back shortly because we are heading for the Atlantic’, and eh he talked to Colin for a minute or two and then he said to me, ‘Derek, take us home’, just that, ‘take us home’, and he dismissed Colin as navigator and eh I brought ‘em home, I brought ‘em home, and eh I got, I was given them the courses, I could read the courses off and I thought, thank god I had had some navigation training. We were, we were flying up country and I said I can’t get em, eh a beacon from Binbrook, because that was the local with the em, the pilots thing, that’s right, and if you keep those like that, you will get to where that is being transmitted from and if it collapses, you are on, turned over it. So anyway, I couldn’t raise Binbrook and I couldn’t raise Binbrook and eh we were flying up country, and our rear gunner shouted, ‘there is an aircraft below us, in car headlamps’. Because I had just said to Peter, ‘by god, you are flying low’, he said, ‘I am looking for a field’, he said, ‘we have no juice hardly’. Eh so I said to him, ‘you use your flight control radio’, it’s a little radio in the pilots cockpit and I said, ‘shout Darky on it’, and eh he shouted, “Darky, Darky’, and all the lights came on and he whipped it round like that and banged it down on the runway, and eh a car came and he followed us to dispersal and em it was an American, it was half American and half British, I can’t imagine.
AM. Falkingham.
DE. Falking.
AM. Falkingham.
DE. Falkingham yeah that’s right, she knows more than me about this.
AM. Oh I don’t.
DE. [laugh] I didn’t notice you sat at the side of your mam like.
AM. I am a bit younger than that.
DE. I would have thought, you are alright anyway [laugh]. Anyway em, we parked and we went into the mess, God, the food was beautiful. The Americans used to fly their own food in you know, and eh it was served like pigs. You walked past the table with all this beautiful stuff on it, custard, kippers.
AM. All together?
DE. All together a plate full of [unclear]. The next morning, as usual, we went to look at our aircraft, ten o’clock in the morning, we always used to gather round the aircraft and eh it was like a colander. There were holes in it and eh Peter said to a so called engineer, who was walking about there, ‘how long are you going to get this kite ready, how long is it going to be?’ and he said, ‘that’ll not fly again’. And eh there was an unexploded shell which lodged in the port outer engine, if that had gone bang, um.
AM. And what about the compass, because at this point Colins compass, you brought them home because the compass wasn’t working.
DE. I bought mine, yes, through my radio detection gear.
AM. What happened to the compass.
DE. It was lying on the floor.
AM. So that had been shot as well.
DE. It had shot off, well I don’t know whether the explosion but it was lying on the floor of the aircraft at the back because the, the rear, what do you call it? That compass anyway was lying on the floor and it was giving all sorts of bloody readings to him, ‘cause I couldn’t believe that Colin had lost us because he had run us into targets and kept the forty five second window that we got to bomb.
AM. So Colin was vindicated.
DE. Yes, I he grumbled at me a bit ‘cause I, I told him, ‘You are out of your mind, Colin, you are wrong’, [laugh] and I knew he was.
AM. But it was his equipment rather than him?
DE. It wasn’t Colin, no, no.
AM. So that was only your second operation and you had to get back. Then how did you, you get back from there [unclear].
DE. On a truck.
AM. And what did they say to you when you got back to your own base?
DE. First thing I done, I went into Flying Control and I said, ‘what happened to the comp. The transmitter at Binbrook’, I said, ‘I couldn’t get that for the last, we were half up the country’. And I could have brought Peter with that device over the airfield, and I couldn’t and fortunately, the rear gunner shouts, ‘there is an aircraft in the car headlamps’. Anyway, ah I walked into Flying Control, Peter Russell, Colin Richie and Derek Evans, there was a line through us. They had written us off, dead and they wouldn’t answer my calls, and anyway, we had that out with them with a little bit of fury [laugh] and we were alright with them then, I mean. The aircraft didn’t fly again for some months and we got it again once.
AM. Did you?
DE. Yes, aye, but there was a hole in the floor, hole in the floor between me, and I used to sit with the navigator, close as this and our table was here, and eh there was a hole in the floor, hole in the ceiling something had come through and missed the pair of us. And my father was right, wasn’t he, ‘cause when I started this he said, ‘don’t worry lad’, he says, ‘the Devil looks after his own’ [laugh].
AM. But somebody was.
DE. Yeah, my mother was a spiritualist and, on that night, it was three o’clock when we landed, and she wouldn’t let me father and her go to bed, ‘he’s in trouble’, and at three o’clock she said, ‘he’s alright’.
AM. He’s alright now.
DE. That’s fantastic ‘aint it.
AM. Do you want a rest?
AM. So I am looking at other stuff that I’ve got here. I’ve, I’ve so we have done the Essen, we’ve done the Cologne, then we have Düsseldorf, Bochum.
DE. Bottrop, we were attacked by about four ruddy German fighters there with that. It was a terrible job that, I don’t know whether, I got some, I got some, I got some good notes but I never carry them about with me.
AM. I have got some here where, I think it was on your third one, that was one where I think you saw and aircraft hit. Tell me about, there was one, there was one where you had a near head on crash?
DE. Oh god aye, we were flying, well, we did, no, not quite all night bombing but most of it. That’s the aircraft I got together and the only things I haven’t made are the wheels, I couldn’t do rubber wheels.
AM. We are looking now at a picture of a model of E for Easy, Derek’s second Lancaster that he made and I have got a photograph of that.
DE. Do you know how long it took to make that?
AM. A long time.
DE. Two thousand four hundred hours, because I built it from the plans, and all these engines and all the ribs and everything are all scale fifteen scale. Two thousand four hundred hours and it is a beautiful model and it is made to fly, and I put it on our drive eh, I opened the throttles and it shot forward and I closed them. I thought that’s not going into the air ‘cause [unclear].
AM. You wouldn’t get it back. Tell me about the operation where you had a near head on crash?
DE. Oh well, it’s in the Ruhr, we had done the bombing and suddenly, we were flying like that, suddenly we went down and I looked up and I saw an aircraft pass over the top of us. I thought ‘bloody hell, that was a close one’, and Peter says, ‘I was watching that aircraft come towards us’, he says, ‘and when the wings filled my windscreen, I thought I had better dive’, and that one went up and it was a German fighter.
AM. Right.
DE. So he nearly got his chop as well.
AM. I am looking at, I am looking back at Derek’s log book here, at all the various things. So, in November ‘44 now we are talking about. So, thinking about what is happening generally, we have had D-Day, the Army.
DE. No, not in.
AM. In November ‘44.
DE. Yes, yes, D-Day was, was it June ‘44?
AM. June ‘44.
DE. Oh yes.
AM. So the Army are working their way up towards Germany now and you are still flying over Germany.
DE. We are taking out important points eh Dortmund, Durkheim, [unclear], Dortmund, good gracious.
AM. I think you bombed quite a few railway, railway lines as well, railway yards.
DE. And also, oil refineries.
AM. What did you think, if you did think at all about, about the, the people on the ground.
DE. Nothing, afterwards yeah, I thought oh dear, we got reports back, you had killed so many on that night and eh, we as a crew had killed four hundred and fifty Germans or something, and I was sorry. I don’t like killing eh, we have had to kill ah, while these German fighters were levelling their guns up, we had to kill ‘em quick or it was the man who got in first.
AM. Kill or be killed.
DE. Yeah, but I didn’t like, I didn’t like it particularly. I am not a killing man but you are if you get in the right circumstances em, yeah [laugh] yes. Em just to jump a year or two, I was, I didn’t attend a meeting and I was appointed President of an Air Gunners Association over the north here somewhere, and I thought, ‘flipping heck’, and eh I then said to myself, ‘what did I do. I know, lets go see if there is any German fighter pilots still alive’. I went to Germany, I walked into a Luftwaffe station, I said, ‘does anybody know anything about flying here?’ [laugh].
AM. And they said?
DE. Oh, I got ever so friendly with them, as a matter of fact, it eh, em we got invites to, my wife and I, got invites to stay with them and we invited them and their wives to stay with us. It culminated in, I cleared a couple of fields, ‘cause I still have the farm and em, I got, I asked the, I knew the Army, a Major in the Army, Richard somebody or other, and I said, ‘do you do any manoeuvres?’ and he said, ‘why’, I said, ‘I have quite a few acres of woods and fields’, ‘Oh’, ‘the price is couple of marquees and a field kitchen on Saturday, such and such a date’, ‘yeah that’s easy, yeah I’ll do that’, and they arrived and I issued an invitation to British and German aircrews, a hundred and twenty eight turned up. The wife says how are you going to feed these? Well, we got a few sausage rolls and that, and I said, ‘oh I know something’, and I went into see the CO at Finningley, a David Wilton, he was very friendly with us and eh I said ‘can I borrow a Jetstream for an afternoon?’ He said ‘what do you want one for?’ I said ‘I’ve got a hundred and twenty five British and German aircrew starving in a field of mine and I know that’, what is the German station, closing one down [pause] and eh I will think about it and I had heard on the grapevine that there was chucking food away and stuff, and so to fetch all these bottles of whisky and food into Finningley, it wasn’t changing hands was it? It was RAF in Germany and RAF in England, and eh when we put the, when we put the piles of food down on pallets, my drive was eighty five yards long and it was full, we had tons. I was, I was moved of course, I got a field kitchen cooking and eh I thought, ‘I wonder where they make all the sausages in Germany’. Just as a thought, so I undid a big bundle and got down to a small package, a kilo or something and it said ‘in case of complaint, such and such a company, Burnley’ [laugh]. I held it up and I said you bloody Krauts can’t even make your own sausage.
AM. Can’t make a sausage. I am going to pause while we have some lunch.
AM. So we are back now, we have had lunch, a bit of refreshment and Derek is raring to go, I think.
DE. Raring to carry on.
AM. Raring to carry on. So, we, we have talked about his early life and we have gone through joining up, crewing up, squadron, some of his first operations em. I think just before we paused, Derek was telling us about the near miss when he nearly had a head on crash.
DE. Yeah, I looked up and saw this bloody aeroplane two inches above me, well it seemed like it.
AM. Not long after that em, I think your pilot became a squadron leader, your squadron leader.
DE. Yes, he was.
AM. What difference did that make to rest of you as a crew, did that make a difference?
DE. No, no, no, no he, all the crews were all a family, all the crews were a family.
AM. Right.
DE. The only time I couldn’t get near him was what I used to crudely call ‘Birding’.
AM. Playing out with the ladies.
DE. Yes, and he was very good at that.
AM. You don’t mean, you don’t mean bird watching with binoculars then?
DE. Eh I don’t think he would know one bird from another actually.
AM. Also just before we finished or maybe just after we switched off, you talked about a landing at Sturgate with Fido, tell me about that, what happened?
DE. Well eh, they put some eh pipes and they didn’t quite join them up, there were leaks in them on both sides of the runway and [unclear].
AM. Yes, so as you are coming back from, dropped your bomb load, on your way back and it is not foggy as you are coming back.
DE. And I am saying to Peter, oh I got it through the ‘we can’t land at Kelstern’, ‘Oh?’ ‘We have been diverted to Sturgate’. ‘What’s Sturgate, we don’t have been of there’, ‘it’s Fido, Fog Investigation Dispersal Operation’, and em we arrived over Sturgate, there was just a blazing mass, there’s the air and the fog had been moved up to about five thousand feet I should think, so it was above, above the runway and the runway was just a mass of fire actually and Peter said, ‘god [unclear]’. Anyway, he landed down there and we were frightened, we didn’t want to get a tyre burst or anything, and em we landed there and then we taxied back up the runway, and we picked up a truck with lights flashing and took us into dispersal. That was it, we stayed there for the night. It was em, it was a dangerous job landing on that job, if you got anything went wrong with you and you veered off, you were burnt.
AM. It went down both sides of the runway, didn’t it, all the way down.
DE. Both sides about six thousand gallons of petrol, a minute was burning oh, colossal, colossal amount.
AM. How many times did you have to land on a FIDO? Just the once?
DE. Just the once um [laugh].
AM. Good job.
DE. Yeah, we took off on it, we got, the next day, message came through that Kelstern was clear, so we said ‘right, we might as well take off and get on back’, and so we did.
AM. But it was still foggy where you were?
DE. It was still blazing so we actually took off amongst the blazing petrol and em got up to a reasonable height and cleared off then.
AM. And got back to Kelstern.
DE. Lovely station was Kelstern, it was a -
AM. What was it like, tell me what Kelstern was like?
DE. A field.
AM. But you just said it was a lovely Station, what was lovely about it?
DE. Em, it was a family, there were no rules and regulations, it was just a station carved out of the countryside and all we got round there was just fields and woods, and eh it suited me because I had been used to woods and fields. We spent a nice time there and eh everybody knew everybody, there was no ‘morning Sir’, in fact the boss there was Air Vice Marshall John Baker. I saved his life once and he always called me Derek, never airman.
AM. So how did you save his life. I think I know this story but tell me anyway?
DE. Well, we set of to bomb em some German positions that were holding the British Army up.
AM. You say we, so he was with you.
DE. Oh Aye yes, he was with us and em we were flying over the North Sea and I got a message from headquarters, eh position over run, return to base and take your bombs and fuel back. Thirty two of aircraft and bombs and I said to Peter, ‘yeah whip it round, we have a recall’, and he said ‘our position is to fly with the boss’.
AM. So he was in a separate aircraft.
DE. Oh, in a separate aircraft, we were the aircraft escorting him because Peter was high up then in rank, and em we were to fly in Vic formation with him. You have heard of Vic formation, haven’t you?
AM. Yeah, yeah.
DE. And we kept on flying and I said, ‘Peter. aren’t you turning round?’ He said ‘I can’t let him fly over ‘cause we’re getting near the Dutch coast there you see’. So eh he said eh, so I said, ‘go a bit closer to him’, and I got the Aldiss lamp out and I winked out the message, and that stupid radio operator said, ‘Why?’. And I signalled back ‘read your bloody bomber [unclear] broadcasts’, and he disappeared and he did and em just before the Dutch coast and the Dutch defences. There were rockets you know. We used to fly along and a rocket would be fired and we would steer round it [laugh], you can’t believe it can you? And em I saw him then turn and we flew back with him, and em he said to me, he says, ‘thank you for saving my life’.
AM. So neither of you had dropped your bombs, the whole lot had to land.
DE. We were loaded with petrol and bombs, thirty tons, and em Peter came in, came in last ‘cause we, they had all gone, they had all gone to land except for the gaggle, us and Peter said, ‘I will let him land and go back in after’, so we did an orbit or two and eh then he came in. His rate of sink was too much because a hundred mile an hour was the rate of sink of a Lanc you know, coming in to land. He was sinking a lot and he slammed the throttles forward and he came in a hundred, came in to land on full throttles and we [unclear]. I was in the astrodome, I thought, ‘bloody hell, we are not, we are going to be buried automatically in the field here, you know’, and em, he touched down and then, he was like this, wheel to wheel and he banged open the throttles and took off, and we went round and come and did a proper landing then. We got in the crew bus and we were detached, dispatched outside the Flying Control near the parachute section and all that, and there was John Barker, the Boss, he got all the air crew kneeling down on the hard runway and we were all with this.
AM. Bowing.
DE. Yeah, and Peter said to him ‘what’s all this’, and he said, ‘any bugger who can survive a landing like that is a god’ [laugh].
AM. I can’t, I can’t imagine landing with the full bomb load and how scary that must be.
DE. It was scary. A burst tyre would have made things hot.
AM. Very.
DE. Oh you wouldn’t have got away with it if you had burst a tyre.
AM. You know that Vic formation that you said, what does Vic stand for? I know what it is like and arrow head.
DE. Vee
AM. Oh vee, of course, yeah, but I was trying to work out what the I and the C stood for.
DE. Vic
AM. Vee, Vic, so it is the phonetic alphabet, isn’t it?
DE. Three aircraft.
AM. It is the point at the front.
DE. Yes, that the Vic.
AM. The ones that take the flak.
DE. Yeah.
AM. I read in the book that you led a formation of about two hundred at the front of that, and Colin got them all there and got them all back.
DE. Yeah, oh he was a good bloke was Colin, he was a bit shirty with me when I said, ‘you are bloody miles out, Colin’, ‘oh no I’m not, no I’m not’, and Peter says, ‘what are you two arguing about?’
AM. To be relying to, on his instruments. I am looking at, I am still looking at your log book here at some of the others “Gaggle Leader Training.”
DE. Yes, you are talking about Vic, aren’t you.
AM. Is that what, I am just looking at this.
DE. What do they say about a flock of birds?
AM. A gaggle of geese.
DE. Yeah.
AM. But it is got here that you actually did training for it.
DE. Yes that’s right, learned to fly in vics.
AM. Yes, got you.
DE. Because normally we flew alone, didn’t we?
AM. Yes within the stream.
DE. Yeah.
AM. And then you, what else have I got here, I’ve got one, I’ve got a little note about when you were attacked by some fighters near Nuremburg.
DE. Yes, yes.
AM. Can you remember that one, I might be jumping about too much now, and then the other note I’ve got is em that in April 1945 Kelstern closed, and you had to move to Scampton.
DE. Yes.
AM. And then your very last Operation was Heligoland?
DE. Heligoland yes, a submarine base. I remember running in over that and we weren’t leaders, we were in the main stream and eh we were dropping big stuff on there. Eh and I mean the ones with the em, ten tonners, they used to go through thirty eight feet of concrete and very often didn’t explode a few days later they would explode wouldn’t they. It was designed for that, what do you call it, delayed action yeah, ’cause we, we done one or two trips to em the Dortmund Emms Canal and eh we used to let the water out the canal [laugh] bad people.
AM. That’s one way of putting it.
DE. All eh, you see the submarine engines were made by MAN, M.A.N [spelt out name], you have seen the lorries and that was, that was down there anyway, Dortmund or somewhere and eh, they always used to use barges taking these submarine engines to Bremen to be fitted to submarines and they were all stuck there with no water in [laugh].
AM. That was the idea.
DE. Have a good trip, yeah, yeah [laugh].
AM. And that was it so that was April ’45, that last one.
DE. Yeah.
Unknown. When was VE day?
AM. VE Day was in May, early May, wasn’t it?
DE. Something like that, I know where it starts, the last operation and the next was delivering food.
AM. For the Operation Manna. How many of those did you do?
DE. How many?
AM. Did you just do one Operation Manna?
DE. No, we did two or three, did more than one anyway.
AM. ‘Cause you were flying really low level in Operation Manna weren’t you. What was that actually, after all that year of the full tour of dropping bombs and all the rest of it, now you’re dropping food?
DE. Well we was dropping food to this Hospital. I was stood in the astrodome and we were lower than the nurses standing on the roof.
AM. I know it was really low level, I didn’t know it was that low, I knew it was really low level.
DE. And you know, some years later, I take my wife to Buxton, to the theatre there, you know the theatre? I drove into this car park, lined up and got out and a Volvo came in and what a pigs ear he was making of trying to, so I got out and I am saying, ‘come on, come on’, you know, then I notice it’s Dutch number plates. So I said to him ‘are you a Dutchman then?’ and he said, ‘yes, have you been to Holland?’ I said, ‘I have been over it a time or two’, he said, ‘have you?’ I said, ‘yes, the last time I went I was delivering food’. He said ‘I’ve got some photographs’, he said, ‘I had hidden a box brownie camera’, and he’d taken photographs of us. He said, ‘I have got it with me and you can have them’.
AM. That’s brilliant.
DE. That was marvellous that was, wasn’t it?
AM. What was it, I can’t imagine what that must have been like to be flying so low that you could actually see the people waiting and, and for the food, because they were starving weren’t they?
DE. Oh, we would have killed them if we had dropped it on them, Aye, we were dropping six ton, lots and eh, we went along this low, we went Hague, I think we went somewhere else as well, I think it was the Hague.
AM. Yes, we’ve got the Hague here ‘Spam Droppings’.
DE. Spam Droppings, we call it spam yeah [laugh], and eh we used to, we dropped that and then we dropped, we went across low like that, if we could have put our wheels down landed on it, it was that low. Well, eh was perhaps thirteen, thirteen foot diameter [unclear] props they were and as soon as we let the things go, turned it over and went straight up. We was told not to fire at the defences because they had agreed not to fire at us and I remember Titch saying, ‘the buggers were going with us all the time’, their guns you know. He said, ‘and I got ‘em lined up as well’ [laugh].
AM. Just in case.
DE. Yeah, but the only one that was any trouble was an American. They fired at some of the defences and they shot him down. Serves him right, the agreement was made, it should have been kept.
AM. They called it ‘Chow hand’ didn’t they, we called it ‘Operation Manna’ and the Americans called it ‘Chow hand’.
DE. They would do. When we got a, we used to land at different places if there was fog like Sturgate, the Americans used to land with us in case, if their bases were fog bound and I remember once, this young airman, he attached himself to me, this American airman. ‘Will you show us a Lancaster?’ ‘Yes, I will show you a Lancaster’, and then there were the bomb trains starting and he said ‘where are all these going from?’ I said, ‘they are going to’, I said, ‘wait a minute, this is ours, look’. I said, ‘climb on one of those bombs and you will have a ride round’, so we rode round into the, into our dispersal and he lay on that aircraft until the last one was bombed. He couldn’t believe it, ‘cause I don’t know we eh, four thousand pounder, sixteen five hundreds eh about two and a half thousand pounds of incendiaries, that was a usual load you see. He watched every one hung cause he couldn’t have believed that lot would have done the whole lot of and American squadron, ‘cause their bomb load, maximum bomb load is four thousand pounds. Well, ours was twenty two thousand pounds.
Unknown. What on a Flying Fortress?
DE. Pardon?
Unknown. What on a Flying Fortress, American.
DE. And the German, what do you call that, Dornier 17 isn’t it.
AM. Dornier, yeah.
DE. That was four thousand pound load as well, they couldn’t carry anything.
AM. Well the Lancaster basically was a flying bomb factory, machine wasn’t it.
DE. That is what it was.
AM. And when you stand under it and look at when the bomb doors are open.
DE. Thirty three feet long.
AM. Yeah it is, so have I missed any stories about various operations. Can you think of any more that I have missed that you need to tell me about?
Unknown. The one that you were trying to get Derek was the fighter one, that was the one when Pete went into the Corkscrew, you know, the manoeuvres that got the fighters off the tail.
DE. Eh, I think it was Bochum, yes Bochum. It was a [unclear] because I have got a lot of.
AM. I think Bochum is just after the photographs.
DE. I see it, yes.
Unknown. I know you told me before, Derek, about how Peter had to turn, turn the Lancaster into, you know, the Corkscrew turn, upside down.
DE. We used to turn a Lancaster down like that and roll it, somebody says to me, ‘you can’t roll a Lancaster’. I said, ‘you bloody can with a fighter at the back of you’ [laugh]. I don’t know how many, I can’t remember how many fighter attacks I dealt with, because I dealt with them before the gunners saw them. Yeah look, ninety minutes to the target, Titch in the tail shouts, ‘fighter, fighter!!’
AM. Eight o’clock.
DE. ‘Eight o’clock level, corkscrew, left, go!’
AM. So describe that to me what that felt like from where you were sat?
DE. Where I was sat, I was glued to a screen, eh, well I used to do this with the armchair to hold myself there, ‘cause I’d be swung about and eh Its corkscrew left, right wing down, nose down, dive four thousand feet eh, and then eh, change the wing so that wing was down and then up and that’s why the corkscrew was like that you see, yeah. And that’s why we hoped that the fighters wouldn’t follow us em, and we through them off most we had, oh we had about twelve fighter attacks so we got used to it [laugh]. But with two very good gunners, they were, they were, I mean Torrey the Mid Upper Gunner shot two down, and he shot two down because em, ‘cause they got too close and he said ‘I waited’ and I was saying to him, ‘cause I was vectoring him onto this fighter coming in, and eh I said to him, ‘he has gone out to starboard but he is just, I can see him, he is just below the em, horizon’. He then said, ‘I can see him’, I said, ‘well watch him because he has no guns on top, he has got to fire out of his wings ‘cause he was a 110’, an eh we knew the German aircraft, we knew them very well, best thing for him to do was to study them. That, I can see him now, ‘cause I am up on top, looking, then I saw this fighter coming up and I said, ‘he is going to get his guns level on you, Torrey’, and Torrey let him have it, killed him, oh he killed him, killed him and eh that was five seconds to our demise. That coming up like that and he got him just before he got his guns level em, oh yes, em. Sometimes we got a bit of excitement.
AM. Ah, probably excitement you could have done without.
DE. Oh god, aye, yeah.
AM. And then it all just came to an end, VE Day, last operation. Just looking at your log book, after the Operation Manna, you did a couple of photographic em.
DE. Oh eh, yes in there you see, eh about ten of us nicked a Lancaster.
AM. Nicked a Lancaster?
DE. Borrowed one and then we, and what have I done now, called it?
AM. You have called it a Special Bombing Photographic.
DE. No, I didn’t.
AM. Was it later than that?
DE. Yeah.
AM. Let’s have a look.
DE. Oh we did a Cooks Tour as we called it, we borrowed an aircraft, well there were plenty [unclear] and I think it was about ten of us and we went round the Cooks Tour, up over the Ruhr and the targets we done and had a look at them, and we were shattered. We were shocked at the damage we’d done and eh fighter affiliation, that is you meet up with a Spitfire and it is trying, its got cameras and it is trying to shoot us down with cameras, yeah and that is where we learnt to fight night fighters. And then on 69 Reserve Flying School, I was, of all the flight crew, that was navigators, pilots, navigators, radio operators em, were given a five year call up if you like and em, they gave us an aircraft and we had a lovely time, this was after the war.
AM. Just before the after the war bit, so we have had VE day, you’ve nicked your aircraft and had a bit of fun going round looking at the bomb sites. How long, what, what happened to you then between then and demob, because it was usually quite a lengthy time wasn’t it?
DE. I don’t know why but eh I, I was posted to eh em, electronic school and I qualified as an electronic engineer then, and then I got on a fighter squadron, servicing their gear.
AM. In, in England.
DE. Yeah, and then I got posted to ruddy Scotland, Leuchars, do you know Leuchars?
AM. I don’t know it, but you talked about that right at the beginning.
DE. And eh -
AM. It’s Coastal Command isn’t it up there?
DE. Yes, it used to be Bomber Command and then it was Coastal Command. Because I think they took off from there and the adjacent station to bomb the ships in the fjords, that’s the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau and then em, I had been there a little bit and I was just about getting acclimatized I was posted to St. Leonards, the point of Cornwall.
Unknown. Penzance.
AM. About as far away as you could get.
DE. Yeah, and I thought to myself eh and I thought my demob number is number 53 and they are demobbing 45, ‘I’m not working’, I went. I went looking round the beach and I saw a bungalow for to let and I went in there and I didn’t turn up for work. But what I’d done was, I went into the, into the other aircrew that I was friendly with and I said, ‘book me into the mess will you, for each meal and sign Derek Evans’. Eh after a fortnight I thought, I wonder if they have missed me?
AM. So what did you do, just generally played about on the beach and had a rest?
DE. On the beach it was lovely, a bit of surfing and that, I was fit then and em, one morning I thought ‘I wonder if they’ve missed me?’ So I got on me bike and rode to the station, I went through a fence where the radar section was and somebody says, ‘the Adj. is looking for you’. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘Is he?’ I went in front of the Adj. and eh ‘you have been absent without leave’, I said, ‘no I haven’t, go and look at the meals register’. Well he couldn’t get anywhere so he said, ‘you had better go and see their Radar Officer in charge of the radar section’, and eh he said, ‘you have been absent without leave’, I said ‘no I haven’t’. Bit of an argument and I thought ‘bloody bloke, he has been here all the blinking war, telling me off’, and at the end of the argument, I said ‘what you need is a bit of air under your arse’ [laugh] flying.
AM. And he said?
DE. Put me on a charge for insubordination and I went in front of the CO, and he says, he says, ‘you shouldn’t demonstrate discipline like this’. He gave me a right ticking off. My demob came up then about a fortnight after and I went in front of the same Group Captain, and he says ‘will you sign on?’ I said ‘after what you have told me’, he said ‘I have got to talk in front of these buggers’. But he had the same medal ribbons as me and I knew what he’d done [laugh], then eh I went, I, I, left then and he says, ‘I’ll guarantee you promotion to Squadron Leader in five weeks if you sign on’. He says, ‘we are losing’, he said ‘you are experienced ground crew, experienced aircrew’. I said ‘you’ll be right now’, I said. He said ‘Squadron Leader’, and I said ‘no’ I said, ‘I am going back to my own patch where I served an apprenticeship’ and I did.
AM. And that’s what you did. Were you married by then Derek, did you meet your wife in the war, during the war or afterwards?
DE. After the war.
AM. It was after.
DE. I wouldn’t entertain [unclear]
AM. Of course, you are still only twenty two or twenty three at this point, you were still only a baby in relative terms.
DE. Twenty two and em yes, quite a few contacts with WAAFs especially in the, well that’s put it politely, and there was one or two wanted to marry and I says ‘do you know what job I am doing?’ I says ‘tomorrow I might be dead’, I said, ‘if anything happened you became pregnant’ [unclear]. I said ‘no, I won’t attach myself to anybody’ and I think I did right. I eh was posted to Verne, that is near Selby and there’s a Holding Unit. They had bods in there and they were saying ‘I need six so and so, right six out of these’, and eh I was, I was driving up past the racecourse in Doncaster which was, well my mother’s home was there, just near the racecourse and I saw this WAAF working, walking on her own and I pulled up and I says ‘hello, what are you doing here?’ She was one of the Kelstern teleprinter operators. She said ‘I have been posted to Verne’, I said, ‘that’s where I’m going, get in’, so I took her up there, and eh I did marry her actually, eventually. Me dad said to me, when I took her home the first time, ‘she’s no bloody good to you, you know’. My god, was he right, I didn’t last long with her.
AM. So this wasn’t Edna then. That wasn’t Edna then because I know that your wife that you have been married to for a long time, was Edna.
DE. No, I don’t know if it is for publication actually. She was a chemist was Edna and she was in, worked in Boots, just down, and I managed an office equipment shop, just above and we just used to say ‘hello’, you know, nothing and eh, I was living with me father and I was in the pub one night and I used to meet all the builders and business folks, ‘cause I used to collect business, you see. And em, ah, I am trying to think of his name now, Terry it was, anyway I said to him ‘Are you building any houses?’ He said, ‘I have got whole estate going at ‘em’. I said, ‘have you anything cheap?’ He said, ‘Well I have a very nice bungalow, er, next to the field which we are not building on’, I said, “oh, what do you want for it?’ and he said, “two and a half thousand pounds’. I said, ‘I’ll have it’, and I bought it off him in the pub [laugh]. I move in there and I was in there for a bit and eh I kept seeing Edna, I used to chat with her, nothing extraordinary. She said ‘What have you done then?’ I said ‘I have moved from me fathers’ place, I’ve bought a bungalow in [unclear], a brand new one’. ‘Oh’, she said, ‘what’s that address?’ Anyway, bless her, I am having my dinner one day, I used to go, it wasn’t far from where I worked. She knocks at the door, she had all her cases with her. I said ‘what are you doing?’ She said ‘I’ve come to live with you’ [laugh].
Unknown. That’s very forward.
AM. And that was that?
DE. Oh, I took her in and that was it, yeah and I was with her, I have been with her sixty odd years, sixty six years.
AM. How did the, you know, I know you, you talked about what you did after the war, but you know the model building, how did the model building come about?
DE. Well. I used to build models, I have built hundreds, ships, aircraft.
AM. As a hobby, this is a hobby, not as a job.
DE. Yes, and I eh, a friend of mine said, he was one of the officials at the brewery, John Smiths, and I said ‘have you got any property you are getting rid of for nought?’ And he said, “yes, got a nice one in Silver Street, a nice’, but he said ‘but Legards are in it’, but he said, ‘their things coming to an end’. He said, ‘so you had better put in a thing’, so I had a look at it and I thought, ‘this would make a good shop’. I don’t know what, I don’t know what I was thinking of, and then, and then I thought a model shop, yeah, a model shop. Em, the bloke who’s in it, what they call him, I don’t really know him now but, he says ‘Oh, your lease is coming to an end’, ‘cause I rented it from him for a week or two, and he says ‘the lease is, so your rent will have to go up’, so I said to him, ‘why, has your landlord put your rent up?’ ‘No, I am going to see him’. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘you had better come back to me and tell me how much you want more’. He came back to me and said ‘you cheeky bugger, you own the place’.
AM. You are the landlord [laugh] and I think on that note.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Derek Carington Evans
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-14
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AEvansDC160714, PEvansDC1602
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:42:07 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Derek was born on June 20th 1924 in Edlington near Doncaster, volunteering as aircrew at the age of 17.
After leaving school at the age of 14, Derek delivered books in and around Doncaster before going down to the Royal Air Force Recruitment Centre in Doncaster and signing up for service after developing a love of aviation after seeing Vimmies and Heyfords.
Derek passed his exams for a pilot, however trained as a wireless operator because of his knowledge of Morse code. When he was crewed up, his team flew in Wellingtons at RAF Finningley, with 18 Operational Training Unit.
Derek then was transferred to a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Blyton, where he worked on Halifaxes, before being posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern, flying on Lancasters.
He completed operations to Essen, Dortmund, Cologne and also targeted the oil refineries. Derek also took part in Operation Manna, dropping supplies in Holland.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Essen
Netherlands
Germany
18 OTU
625 Squadron
Absent Without Leave
aircrew
Anson
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Dominie
FIDO
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military discipline
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Blyton
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
superstition
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner