1
25
42
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/283/44898/MJonesTJ184141-220105-07.1.pdf
f0c5c4455e92ba33d9d5f18a0361f4b6
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Jones, Thomas John
Tom Jones
T Jones
Description
An account of the resource
62 items. An oral history interview with Peter William Arthur Jones (b. 1954) about his father Thomas John Jones DFC (b. 1921, 1640434 and 184141 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs, correspondence, service documents, aircraft recognition manuals, medals and a memoir. He flew operations as a flight engineer on 622 Squadron Stirling and 7 Squadron on Lancaster. <br /><br />The collection also contains an <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2566">Album</a> of 129 types of aircraft. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Peter Jones and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-12-04
2017-12-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Jones, PW
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Amendment list 45 to Air Publication 1480B
Description
An account of the resource
Pages of recognition handbook of German aircraft showing diagrams of Fw 154, He 219, Ju 88G, Me 262, Ju 252, Ju 352, Bv 222, He 219 (again), Bv 222 (again), Hs 293 (Glider Bomb).
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ministry of Aircraft Production
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-08
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Wehrmacht
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Eleven printed pages with text and diagrams
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MJonesTJ184141-220105-07
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Air Publication 1480
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-08
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Ju 88
Me 262
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1895/35627/SGillK1438901v20027.2.pdf
4e1b16d68628369bb390ad6492ed4bdf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gill, Kenneth
K Gill
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Gill, K
Description
An account of the resource
One hundred and sixty-four items plus another one hundred and fifteen in two sub-ciollections. The collection concerns Flying Officer Kenneth Gill DFC (1922 - 1945, 1438901, 155097 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents, photographs and family and other correspondence. <br />He flew operations as a navigator with 9 Squadron before starting a second tour with 617 Squadron. He was killed 21 March 1945 having completed 45 operations.<br /><br />The collection also contains two albums. <br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2114">Kenneth Gill. Album One</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2117">Kenneth Gill. Album Two</a><br /><br />Additional information on Kenneth Gill is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/108654/">IBCC Losses Database.</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Derek Gill and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
My name is Derek Gill and I was born on the 20th April 1944 (same birthday as Adolph Hitler). So I am 67 years old.
I was 11 months old when my father was killed on Wednesday 21 March 1945.
My father F/O Kenneth Gill DFC was born on the 19 November 1922, when he died he was 22yrs and 4 months old.
He joined the RAF on 18 June 1941 aged 18 as a Volunteer Reserve and after initial training was transferred by Troopship on 6 Jan 1942 arriving in [inserted] Pan American Flying School Florida [/inserted] Monkton USA on the 20 January 1942 for initial Flying Training and then transferred to Canada in May 1942 until he qualified as an Air Navigator on 11 Sept 1942. [inserted] EMPIRE TRAINING COURSE. [/inserted]
On his return to the UK he joined No 29 Operational Training Unit at RAF Station North Luffenham flying Wellington Mk3's during December 1942. His first Operation was on the night of 25 Feb 1943 bombing Clermont Ferrand in France this operation took 7 hrs.
In March 1943 he was transferred to 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Swinderby flying Halifax Mk5's and then Lancaster's.
His second Operation was in a Lancaster Mk3 on the night of 18 April 1943 flying to La Spezia in Italy Mine Laying this flight lasted 9.5 Hrs.
On 20 April 1943 he was transferred to No 9 Squadron at RAF Bardney where he flew 26 Operational Flights with the same crew except for 3 ops Pilot F/LT Derbyshire, Flight Eng. Sgt Sullivan, Navigator Sgt Gill, Wireless Operator Sgt Overend, Bomb Aimer/Front Gunner Sgt Oakes, Mid Upper Gunner Sgt Cole and Rear Gunner Sgt Parsons. In Lancaster's. Targets were: Dortmund, Duisberg, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Essen, Wuppertal, Dusseldorf, Bochum, Oberhausen, Krefeld, Mulheim (returned early as Port outer was u/s), Gelsenkirchen, Cologne (Returned early rear turret u/s bomb load jettisoned, 21 miles from target, whilst testing rear turret a twin engine enemy aircraft made three attacks), Cologne, Essen, Milan, Nurnburg, Nurnberg(54 flak holes), Rheydt, Berlin, Munich, Kassel, Frankfurt, Leipzig, Dusseldorf, Berlin. completed on 19 November 1943 his 21st Birthday.
During these Operations was commissioned from Flt Sgt to P/O. on the 27 June 1943
On the 8 December 1943 he was awarded the DFC for his service with No 9 Squadron.
27 Dec 1943 promoted to F/O.
After completing the above missions he was transferred to No 5 Lancaster Finishing School at RAF Syerston as a Navigation Instructor (Bringing new
[page break]
Navigators up to speed on the different navigational aids being used on the Lancaster and also retraining older Navigators who where [sic] having difficulties with the new innovations.
Whilst at Syerston he met up with F/Lt Gumbley (pilot) and F/O Barnett (Flt Engineer) and at the end of their time at Syerston they were asked to join No 617 Squadron, so went around and completed the rest of the crew asking people who they new [sic] that had completed a Tour and were training new crews.
On the 27 September the New crew were transferred to No 617 Sqd RAF Woodhall Spa (Commanded by W/Cdr J B (Willie) Tait)
Pilot: Flt/Lt B.A. Gumbley DFM RNZAF Aged 29 Hawks Bay NZ.
Flt Eng: F/O E.A. Barnett (Men in Desp) Aged 21 Thorp Bay Essex.
Navigator: F/O K. Gill DFC Aged 22 Halton Leeds.
W/Op: P/O S.V. Grimes Aged 22 Suffolk.
B/A: F/O J.C. Randon Aged 23 Chesterfield Derbyshire.
A/G Mid Upper: F/Sgt J. Penswick Aged 23 London.
A/G Rear: F/Sgt G Bell Aged 23 Hull.
After training with the other crews from 30 Sept 1944 to 26 Oct 1944 they went on their first Operation with 617 flying to Lossiemouth and on the next day took off with a Tallboy Deep penetration 12000 lb Bomb, on board to attack the Tirpitz. They flew to Tromso Fjord (Norway) and after 4 runs over the Target decided that the cloud made accurate bombing impossible. For this operation the Mid-upper turret was removed in order to install the extra fuel tanks required to achieve the range to make the return flight. Even so they landed at Skatska (Coastal Command Airfield) in the Shetlands to top up with fuel as they had not allowed for returning with the Bomb on board (C/O was not impressed as if the bomb had gone off it could have wiped out the airfield), then flew to Lossiemouth returning to Woodhall Spa on the 30 Oct 1944. (Bringing the Tallboy all the way back). Top secret and scarce) 12 hrs
Only a crew of 6 as no mid-upper turret.
On the 11 November 617 and 9 Sqd returned to Lossiemouth and on the 12 flew back to Tromso Fjord and sunk the Tirpitz, bombing at 08:43 from 15400ft a Tallboy was seen to enter the water about 20 yds off the Tirpitz which capsized. (Still a crew of 6 but on this trip the mid-upper gunner was in the rear turret) 12.15 hrs
[page break]
Full Crew of 7
8 Dec Urft Dam. Not bombed as cloud cover was over target.
205 Lancs from 5 Grp carrying 1000lb bombs and 19 from 617 carrying Tallboys. 3.35 hrs
11 Dec Urft Dam Bombed from 6000 ft (Tallboy) could not see bomb burst because of cloud aircraft received minor damage to Tailplain. 5.30 hrs
15 Dec Ijmuiden E&R Boat Pens Bombed at 10000 ft hit NW corner of the Pens. 2.35 hrs
21 Dec Politz-Oil Refineries Bombed at 16900 ft (Tallboy) significant damage to target, landed at Metheringham using FIDO, transferred to Base by road and collected Aircraft on 23 Dec after fog had lifted. 9.45 hrs
24 Dec Command of 617 transferred from W/Cdr Tait to G/C Fauquier
29 Dec Rotterdam E&R Boat Pens Bombed at 16660 ft (Tallboy) Bomb unobserved owing to smoke, a good many near misses, no direct hits seen. 2.50 hrs
30 Dec Ijmuiden E&R Boat Pens Solid cloud over target did not bomb.
Tallboy returned. 2.20 hrs
31 Dec Horten (Oslo Fjord) Cruisers Kolin and Emden Ships travelling at up to 30 Knots difficult to bomb accurately, later on Crews were forced to bomb by moonlight or aim at the source of Flak some crews returned with their Tallboys. Bombed at 00.15 hrs from 10200 ft (Tallboy) near miss on port side of ship, ship appeared to stop. Later identified as a 10000 ton transport ship.
7.45 hrs.
3 Feb 1945 Pootershaven E&R Boat Pens (Midget Submarines) Bombed at 1552 from 13500 ft (Tallboy), bombed into smoke over the aiming point, Aircraft hit by Flak, fuselage and rear turret damaged, not seriously, no casualties.
2.50 hrs.
[page break]
6 Feb Bielefeld (Vielesible Viaduct) Aborted Aircraft targeted by accurate Flak on return route no damage suffered
5.45 hrs
14 Feb Bielefeld (Vielesible Viaduct) Aborted Flak encountered as the aircraft crossed the Rhine.
4.50 hrs
22 Feb Bielefeld (Vielesible (Viaduct) Target comprised two parallel twin track Railway Viaducts. Bombed at 16.10 (Second run Tallboy) 13700 ft. 3 arches at the western viaduct collapsed, but rail link remained on the other two tracks.
4.30 hrs.
24 Feb Dortmund-Ems Canal Aborted Recalled 30 miles from target because of unfavourable weather conditions.
4.40 hrs
13 Mar Bielefeld (Vieiesible Viaduct) Aborted 2 Aircraft were B1 (Specials) carrying the new 22000 lb Grand Slam Bomb (G/C Fauquier & S/L Calder). The aircraft were modified to carry the Grand Slam, Bomb doors removed and the fairings of the bomb bay, deletion of the Mid-Upper Turret and also the Main Radio and the Wireless Operator
4.20 hrs
14 Mar Bielifeld [sic] (Vieiesible Viaduct) Bombed at 1628 hrs from 11600 ft (Tallboy) Bomb believed to be a direct hit, S/L Calder Grand Slam falling 30 yds from viaduct (G/C Fauquier aircraft went u/s at start up. 460 ft of both Viaducts Destroyed Rail link severed completely.
5.00 hrs
19 Mar Arnberg Viaduct Bombed at 10.54 hrs from 12700 ft (Grand Slam) Bomb fell 50 yds south of aiming point as Pilots Bomb Aiming Indicator was not recording the Bomb Aimers alterations. Two or Three Spans of the Viaduct were brought down.
5.20 hrs
21 Mar Arbergen Railway Bridge near Bremen. The bridge was a double track Rail link across the river Weser 200 yds long.
[page break]
On this occasion Flak in the area was more intense and a number of Aircraft were damaged. A number of Me262 Jet Fighters were also encountered after bombing. The Target was rendered unusable although the main bridge was still intact.
The aircraft was a B1 Special although it was carrying a Tallboy, on this mission there were only 5 crew members onboard.
The Aircraft was hit by Flak during its run up to the target and dropped out of formation, causing F/Lt Price to take avoiding action. British records state that the aircraft received a direct hit and dived down out of control.
Witnesses on the ground gave a different account "The aircraft went down passing over the village of Okel heading in the direction of Riede at a hight [sic] of 2000ft. They do not mention that the aircraft was on fire at this stage, but state that it seemed to be flying extremely slow. As it flew over Riede the locale Flak Battery went into action, hitting one of the engines and setting the fuselage on fire. The aircraft made a 180 degree turn back towards Okel and crashed into a field. The witnesses said the aircraft did not explode immediately, but before it could be reached there was a violent explosion, reducing the aircraft to fragments and creating a crater 50ft deep by 100ft diameter.
The RAF Missing Research and Enquiry Service failed to find any German documentation regarding the incident or trace any burial for the crew. The identity of Fl/Lt Randon was established from a document found at the crash site leaving no doubt about the identity of the aircraft. Having no known grave the crew are commemorated on the RAF Memorial at Runnymede, my fathers name appears on Panel 267 and also on the 617 Sqd Memorial at Woodhall Spa, Lincolnshire.
The Crew Comprised of:-
Pilot F/Lt B.A. Gumbly DFM RNZAF,
Flt Eng F/O A.E. Barnett (Men in Desp)
Navigator F/O K. Gill DFC CdG
Bomb Aimer F/Lt J.C. Randon
Rear-Gunner P/O G. Bell.
F/O K. Gill Total Flying Time Day Time 388.10hrs (74.45 Operations)
Night Time 279.15hrs (171.30 Operations)
Total Time 667.25hrs (246.15 Operations)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Biography of Kenneth Gill by son Derek
Description
An account of the resource
Gives service history of Kenneth Gill including training in Canada as navigator, training in England, operations on 9 Squadron with list of his crew. Details targets attacked. Commissioned and awarded Distinguished Flying Cross. After tour on Lancaster finishing school transferred to 617 Squadron, lists crew. Details operations and targets while on 617 Squadron. Includes attack on Tirpitz with tallboy bombs and list other attacks with this weapon. Describes final operation where Me 262s encountered but his aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire and crashed when unreleased weapons exploded, All crew killed. Lists crew.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
D Gill
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-04-20
1941-06-08
1942-01-06
1941-01-20
1942-09-11
1943-02-25
1943-03
1943-04-20
1943-11-19
1943-06-27
1943-12-27
1944-09-27
1944-10
1944-11-11
1944-12
1945-01
1945-02
1945-03
1945-03-21
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
United States
Florida
France
France--Clermont-Ferrand
England--Rutland
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Italy
Italy--La Spezia
Germany
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Oberhausen (Düsseldorf)
Germany--Krefeld
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Cologne
Italy--Milan
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Rheydt
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Munich
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Leipzig
Scotland--Moray
Norway
Norway--Tromsø
Germany--Euskirchen (Kreis)
Netherlands
Netherlands--IJmuiden
Poland
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Atlantic Ocean--Oslofjorden
Germany--Bielefeld
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Bremen
Great Britain
New Brunswick
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Personal research
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Five page printed document
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SGillK1438901v20027
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
1660 HCU
29 OTU
617 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bombing
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
flight engineer
Grand Slam
Halifax
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
killed in action
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 3
Me 262
memorial
navigator
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Bardney
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
Tirpitz
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/147/1572/LColeC1605385v1.2.pdf
146cc1c3261e10e2ec1fd6bc26ecd692
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Cole, Colin
C Cole
Colin Cole
Description
An account of the resource
31 items. The collection relates to Warrant Officer Colin Cole (1924 – 2015 RAF Volunteer Reserve 1605385) who served with 617 Squadron. The collection contains two oral history interviews his, logbook, service documents, medals, memorabilia from the Tirpitz and six photographs.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Six items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties or to comply with intellectual property regulations. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-27
2015-07-27
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cole, C
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Colin Cole's navigator's, air bomber's, air gunner's and flight engineer's flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Navigator’s, air bomber’s, air gunner’s and flight engineer’s flying log book for Warrant Officer Colin Cole from 5 August 1943 to 23 September 1946. Detailing training schedule and operations flown. Served at RAF Yatesbury, RAF Mona, RAF Barrow in Furness, RAF Market Harborough, RAF Winthorpe, RAF Syerston, RAF Woodhall Spa, RAF Digri (Bengal) and RAF Scampton. Aircraft flown were Anson, Proctor, Dominie, Wellington, Stirling, Lancaster and Lincoln. He carried out a total of ten daylight and one night-time operations with 617 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa as a wireless operator on the following targets in Germany, Netherlands, Norway and Poland: Bergen, Dortmund-Ems Canal, Hamburg, Ijmuiden, Lützow, Oslo Fjord, Rotterdam, Tirpitz Tromsø, Urft Dam and Viesleble [sic] (actually Bielefeld) viaduct. <span>His pilots on operations were </span><span data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335559739":200,"335559740":276}">Flight Lieutenant Leavitt and Flight Lieutenant Price. </span>Annotations include bombing the Tirpitz and an attack by an enemy jet aircraft. Operation Exodus and Cook’s tour flights are included, as is a tour of India in 1946.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LColeC1605385v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Pakistan
Norway
Pakistan
Poland
Wales
England--Cumbria
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
Wales--Anglesey
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Oslofjorden
Germany--Bielefeld
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Schleiden (Kreis)
Pakistan--Digri
Netherlands--Ijmuiden
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Norway--Bergen
Norway--Oslo
Norway--Tromsø
Pakistan--Digri
Poland--Świnoujście
Germany--Urft Dam
Netherlands
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
1944-11-12
1944-11-13
1944-12-08
1944-12-11
1944-12-29
1944-12-30
1945-01-12
1945-02-14
1945-02-22
1945-02-24
1945-04-09
1945-04-13
1945-05-08
1945-05-10
1945-05-15
1945-09-27
1945-09-29
14 OTU
1661 HCU
617 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Cook’s tour
Dominie
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
Me 262
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Guzzle
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Barrow in Furness
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Mona
RAF Scampton
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Woodhall Spa
RAF Yatesbury
Stirling
submarine
Tiger force
Tirpitz
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/630/30882/MPotterPL1878961-150914-06.2.pdf
84b52218f1a5776654ee80a871e15669
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Potter, Peter
P Potter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Potter, P
Description
An account of the resource
39 items. Collection concerns Peter Potter, (1925 - 2019, 1876961 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 626 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview, his logbook, memoirs and photographs
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Peter Potter and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[inserted][underlined] Bire etc [/underlined] For Boxted 24-2 [/inserted]
[inserted][missing letter][underlined] A [/underlined][/inserted]
FLYING LOG BOOK
The following are Photostats of pages from my flying log book. They are a record of the operations made by me over enemy-occupied territory in 1944.
Although the completed missions were obviously very dangerous, those we were unable to complete (abortive) nevertheless remain the clearest in my memory. There were two.
The first, on the 8th August, was an op to Aire, a short trip which meant we had a bomb load of 12,000 lbs. However, shortly after take off we were faced with a massive thunderstorm. We attempted to fly above it, but it built and rose as fast as we did. Eventually we entered the cloud, and almost immediately flew into the downdraft. We fell from our ceiling approximately 24,000ft like a stone. At approximately 12,000ft we began to pull out of the dive and the controls began to respond. Our impetus took us down to 4,000ft before we pulled out and climbed to 12,000ft. At this time we realised we were losing height again even with the [deleted] two [/deleted] engines at full power. We decided to return to base as it was obvious we could not complete the op. as we were above the North Sea it was decided to jettison the bombs. This proved to be impossible as we were unable to open the bomb bay doors. The maximum speed we could maintain was about 140 mph and we were gradually losing height. We found out later that both the outboard engines had torn away from their side mountings and they were pointing down about 15 degrees, pulling us down even though we were at full power.
We reached Wickenby with a few hundred feet to spare and made a perfect landing. We had to. We could not have gained height again for another attempt. As we touched down on the runway the photo flash, equivalent to a 500lb bomb, fell out and came bouncing down the runway behind us, sparks flying everywhere. Luckily it didn’t explode. We were directed to the most remote area of the airfield and evacuated the aircraft in record time.
During the descent in the cloud we were entertained by a most brilliant display of St. Elmo’s Fire. The whole aircraft was covered with balls of fire running about. We took photographs but none showed the fire. However, parts of the plane showed as clear as if the photographs had been taken in sunlight.
[page break]
[eighteen pages of log book]
[page break]
27-2
The plane had been almost torn apart in the encounter. The rivets had been torn from the leading edge of the wings and tail-plane. The wings were twisted as was the body. The engineers from AVRO said they could not understand how the plane had remained airborne as long as it had. In their report after tests we received a letter from them stating that to sustain such damage the plane had to exceed 570 mph. if that was the case I believe we flew the fastest bomber in World War II. The tests on UMH2 were carried out under the supervision of Roy Chadwick and the letter to our Navigator was written in long hand, not typed and the original was kept by Jimmy. We all had copies unfortunately mine was lost when moving.
The second abortive was on 5th October 1944, Saarbrucken, when we hit icy conditions so bad that we lost two engines and all suffered some degree of frostbite.
We were routed over the edge of the mountains so were unable to lose height for some time. We were unable to climb and so aborted. We all suffered, also in later life. One engine re-started once we descended.
My most memorable successful operation was when dropping mines in the Kiel Canal from 500ft. We flew straight along the canal dropping one mine at a time in what was one of the most heavily defended targets of the war. There was so much firing along the canal that we could see almost as clearly as in daylight.
We all felt fear at times, but it affects people differently. For me it was a stimulant and when a civilian I was unable to settle until I became a fireman.
I flew on two other ops to cover for bods who could not get back to the station in time and their crews asked me to help out to save the absentees getting into trouble. On one op the C.O. knew what was going on as that morning he called me to his office to offer me a commission (which I had to refuse owing to putting my age up to join the RAF). He recognised me at briefing and knew I was with the wrong crew. However he did nothing except to say that he needed to know if I did it again.
After surviving a few trips we were given our own aircraft, UMF2, already a veteran of many ops. She proved to be a most dependable aircraft. Apart from the number of bombs painted on the side we also had the nude lady which I understand was repainted by the next crew after we completed our tour. The lady was no longer reclining but standing partly clothed. At a reunion a chap said it had been ordered to be removed, which it was, but repainted standing and captioned ‘Frigger of the fighting sixes’ instead of ‘Friga of -----. Whoever gave the order must have got the message as it survived. It was a special aircraft in that for some reason it had a much better performance than the vast majority of Lancs. She flew faster than others on
[page break]
28-2
the same revs and boost and it didn’t make any difference when engines were changed. Fuel consumption was better, a lovely plane. We never found her ceiling and she performed well in all weather conditions. Only once when on an op to Saarbrucken on 5th October 1944 did we have real problems with icing and engine failure with loss of all heating. We all suffered from frostbite and had to abort.
However, on 12th September 1944 target Frankfurt, when evading a fighter JU88 I smashed my lower jaw and was placed sick. The rest of the crew then had two abortives and became convinced I was their luck and pleaded with me to sign myself off which I did and flew with my jaw strapped up, hardly able to talk and still living on liquids. Wearing my oxygen mask I was in agony, but at least the pain kept me awake. Bone splinters from the jaw were still working their way out 40 years later. I was still unable to eat properly for many years and on occasions my jaw would lock solid for weeks at a time. Jaw and Larynx damage caused speech to be impaired and loss of voice if projected for more than a short period. Damage also caused a loss in inflexion ability.
Once the bombs had gone we either flew high or very low on our way home, preferably very high and as on the outward journey, weaving about all the time to allow us the greatest chance of seeing anyone underneath us, a method that stood us in good stead twice. On a moonlit night we flew high, on dark nights low, avoiding lit up areas. We used cloud cover at times, but not if our shadow was thrown.
UMF2 survived the war. I was told she completed over one hundred ops, but have not confirmed it. She was one of the only two aircraft to fly from beginning to and of Squadron Ops period and had been on C Flight 12 Squadron before C Flight became 626 Squadron.
Like many other crews we all learnt as much as possible about each others jobs and agreed amongst ourselves who was the best substitute for who. It was decided that Stu Tween W/OP was best gunner, Jim Jackson, N, was best B/A, Johnny Payne B/A, best F/E. Johnny Moore, MU/G best W/OP. I was best Pilot and also Nav, but every one of us practised at all other positions. I was the only one to land the aircraft which I only did 3 times with a very nervous skipper hovering and the rest on tenterhooks too. What would have happened if I had needed to do it with a dodgy aircraft I have no idea. Landing occasions were on August 1st, V2 on return from Rufforth, August 21st F2 and 29th F2, September 9th Navigated whole trip, September 27th, Navigated whole trip.
I had been taught to fly and navigate by a First World War[deleted]t[/deleted] pilot, my father also and tried to keep up-to-date as I grew older.
Dublin Core
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Format
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One photocopied booklet
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
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MPotterPL1878961-150914-06
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Temporal Coverage
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1944-05-03
1944-05-04
1944-08-04
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-10
1944-08-14
1944-08-15
1944-08-18
1944-08-26
1944-08-27
1944-08-29
1944-08-30
1944-09-03
1944-09-05
1944-09-08
1944-09-10
1944-09-11
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-26
1944-10-03
1944-10-05
1944-10-06
1944-10-07
1944-10-14
1944-10-15
1944-10-19
1944-10-20
1944-10-23
1944-10-24
1944-11-06
1944-11-11
1944-11-12
1944-11-16
1944-11-21
1944-11-22
1944-11-29
1944-12-06
1944-12-07
1944-12-12
1944-12-13
1944-12-15
1944-12-16
1944-12-17
1944-12-18
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Poland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Belgium--Ghent
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
France--Caen Region
France--Calais
France--Falaise
France--Le Havre
France--Paris
France--Pauillac (Gironde)
Germany--Aschaffenburg
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düren (Cologne)
Germany--Emmerich
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kiel Canal
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Ulm
Netherlands--Eindhoven
Netherlands--Uden
Netherlands--Veere
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Fontenay
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
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Steve Baldwin
Mike Connock
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book excerpts from P L Potter’s log book, covering the period from 3 May 1944 to 17 December 1944. Detailing his flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at RAF Hixon and RAF Wickenby. Aircraft flown in were Wellington and Lancaster. He flew a total of 33 operations, one night operation with 30 Operational Training Unit and 17 daylight and 15 night operations with 626 Squadron. His pilot on operations was Flying Officer Ford. Targets were Paris, Pauillac, Fontenay de Marmion, Ferme de Forestal, Falaise, Volkel, Ghent, Kiel, Stettin, Eindhoven, le Havre, Frankfurt, Calais, West kapelle, Saarbrucken, Emmerich, Duisburg, Stuttgart, Essen, Gelsenkirchen, Kiel Canal, Duren, Aschaffenburg, Dortmund, Merseburg, Ludwigshafen and Ulm. The log book also contains type written details of two aborted operations and their causes.
Creator
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Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Title
A name given to the resource
Copy of Peter Potter's flying log book
30 OTU
626 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
Chadwick, Roy (1893-1947)
fear
Ju 88
Lancaster
Me 109
Me 262
military ethos
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
nose art
Operational Training Unit
RAF Hixon
RAF Pembrey
RAF Wickenby
tactical support for Normandy troops
target indicator
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/959/9400/PPopeKMJ18010057.2.jpg
301f7c4000c89426c6c40ea8b67aba24
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Title
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Pope, Kenneth. Album
Description
An account of the resource
79 items. The album concerns Sergeant Kenneth Malcom John Pope, (b. 1924, 1876733 Royal Air Force). He completed 32 operations as a flight engineer with 467 Squadron from RAF Waddington. The album contains his log book, photographs, letters, and newspaper cuttings about the operations he took part in.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Susan Elizabeth Kelly and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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K M J Pope
Date
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2018-02-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
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Americans Take Saarlautern and Push on Beyond
R.A.F. DROP 3500 TONS OF SAAR SUPPLIES
BOMBERS IN GREAT STRENGTH, FOLLOWING A 36-HOUR NON-STOP ATTACK ON GERMANY, FLEW OUT OVER THE EAST COAST BEFORE IT WAS LIGHT TO-DAY, SHORTLY AFTER ALL THE GERMAN MEDIUM-WAVE STATIONS WERE OFF THE AIR.
More than 3500 tons of bombs were dropped by R.A.F. Bomber Command in last night’s attack on [underlined] “Heilbronn” [/underlined] and Karlsruhe-two railway centres which have been packed with supplies and reserves being rushed up to Saar.
Karlsruhe is the nearest large town to the south-western front,where the United States 7th Army is pounding the Nazi defences.
Both attacks began simultaneously. Bombing was concentrated, and large fires were seen.
[inserted] X [/inserted] At Heilbonn, fighters were up in great numbers and there were several combats.
Besides these two heavy attacks the transport centre of Hagen, some 15 miles south of Dortmund, was also bombed.
Returning crews reported that flames from Karlsruhe could be seen for 70 miles. “Three-quarters of a mile of solid fire.” was the description of the town given by a Canadian airman. Some jet-propelled enemy aircraft seen.
Nearly 4000 Allied bombers and fighters had blasted Nazi rail towns as the last of the big twin R.A.F. force left Reich territory last night.
[underlined]
Eleventh Operation
HEILBONN
Monday Night December 4th 1944
Airborne 6hrs 40mins.
[/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Eleventh operation Heilbronn
Description
An account of the resource
A handwritten note giving brief details of the operation and a relevant newspaper cutting titled 'American Take Saarlauten and push on beyond. R.A.F. drop 3500 tons on Saar supplies'.
Identifier
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PPopeKMJ18010057
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Germany--Heilbronn
Temporal Coverage
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1944-12-04
1944-12-05
Format
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One handwritten note and a newspaper cutting
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Andy Hamilton
bombing
Me 262
propaganda
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1550/28722/YJamesER[Ser -DoB]v1.pdf
3b4119258fda9405a724f010441e40b2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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James, Ernest Raymond
E R James
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
James, ER
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. The collection concerns Sergeant Ernest Raymond James and contains his diary, decorations and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 576 and 582 Squadron Pathfinders.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Roy James and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[Front cover of notebook]
[page break]
[rubber stamp of retailer] Loxley Brothers Ltd.
A LANCASTER
[photograph missing]
Left to Right.
1 A Costling 2 P Raynor 3 JT Smith 4 J Brown 5 DN Reid 7 F Docker 6 R James.
Operations
The Gen Crew.
[Black and White photograph]
Smith
Wop RG Mog Pilot Set Op Eng. Nav.
Brown
[page break]
LEFT TO RIGHT.
Wop ALEX. R. Gun. Mid upp. J Smith. Pilot J Brown BA. D Reid Eng. R James Nav Dockar.
[page break]
MY PAL “BUTCH”
[picture of Air Chief Marshall Arthur Harris]
5
Elsham Wolds. 576 SQD
1st OPERATION
KEIL night
23 July 1944
In The Old J2
Medium to light flak.
Very few searchlights
never saw a fighter.
Quiet A nice trip took 5-30 hrs
Receiver in Wireless went u/s but okay after changing valve. Used emergency working.
No damage to aircraft at all.
Saw no kites Shot Down although a few were.
Good prang saw fires through thick clouds.
[page break]
10
576 Squ
2nd operation
Stuttgart
24 July 1944 Night
in J2
Concentrated heavy flak over the aiming point and along the bombing run
Very few searchlights
Bags of fighters one flew alongside of us. Bags of panic
No damage to the kite at all but quiet [sic] a few were shot down.
Not a bad trip but too many fighters knocking around and 9-15 hrs is too long for me to be in the air
A really good prang
[page break]
15
576 Sqd
3rd Operation
Stuttgart
28th July 1944 Night.
In J2.
More flak than last time and more fighters yes sir a lot more fighters
Few searchlights.
Bags of chop fighters escorted us over France right to target and back again and they were not ours
Last time we couldn’t have pranged it so good but this time I dont [sic] think we will have to go again for a bit.
Rear gunner shot a fighter rocket down.
67 Lancs were lost.
We got away without a scratch.
[page break]
18
576 Sqd.
4th Operation.
31 July 1944. Le Havre day.
In R2
1st Daylight raid.
Target port installations and U boat pens.
Bags of predicted flak.
Saw kite in front shot down in flames. That shook me.
No fighters
Afterwards learned that two destroyers were sunk in the harbour.
Actually saw bombs raining down on target.
We suffered no damage at all.
Starboard outer had to be feathered going out.
We were diverted to Lindholme because of bad weather
Trip lasted 4-30.
[page break]
21
5th Operation. 576 Sqd
3 Aug 1944 Trossy/St Maximin Day.
2nd Daylight Raid.
Flying bomb main depot.
Bags of predicted flak
Saw two kites shot down
No Fighters. Had spitfires escorting us.
Had good view of France
Went quite a way in just north of Paris actually.
B.A. Saw one kite knocked out of the air with some one elses bombs.
Not a very good prang.
It took 4-40 hrs.
Kit was R2.
[page break]
26
576 Sqd
6th Operation
Pauillac. Day.
4th August 1944. 3rd Daylight
Back again in J2
Target was an oil refinery. Escorted by Mosquitoes and Spitfires.
Real good trip and a real smashing prang smoke up to 10,000
Not one burst of flak and no fighters.
Saw huge flames after oil tanks had been hit.
Two tankers were hit.
Went out about 100 ft above the sea.
Altogether the best trip up to now although it took 8-15 hrs.
[page break]
32
576 Sqd
7th Operation
Blave Day
5 August 4 Daylight in J2
Target another oil refinery.
Escorted by spitfires and Mos
Quiet [sic] a decent trip similar to Pauillac just opposite side of river.
Just a bit of flak
One JU 88 got into stream but was last seen heading east with a few Mos on his tail.
Not quiet [sic] as good a prang as yesterdays but a nice trip
It took 8-25 hrs.
Diverted to Worksop.
[page break]
35
576 Sqd.
8th Operation.
Battle area (Nr Caen)
7th august 1944 Night attack.
Target. German defences holding up our troops.
Just light flak.
A few enemy night fighters.
Rear gunner saw one but it didnt [sic] see us. Thank the lord.
Very unsatisfactory raid
PFF ran out of target indictors.
We brought all our bombs back.
Trip took 4-10 hrs
Kite was J2.
PS. That was our last trip from 576 Sqd. and as PFF had boobed on the trip above we thought we would try our hand at it.
[page break]
40
[newspaper cutting]
Little Staughton PFF 582 Sqd.
Stettin. Night.
29th August 1944. 9th Operation.
Target was the Town & Docks
In another J.
To show there was no ill feeling we went right over Sweden and boy their lit up towns sure looked good. Their light flak look very pretty too.
Over Stettin there was one huge belt of searchlights and more flak than I have ever seen before
Quite a few fighters around but we weren’t attacked.
Actually we were the first kite over Stettin.
Not a bad trip but I think rather too long.
It took 9-20.
[page break]
45
1st Rhur Trip.
11-9-44. PFF 582 Sqd.
10th Operation. Day.
(Castrop Rauxiel)
In the Rhur. Five miles from Dortmund.
Synthetic Oil Plant.
Kite was E
First kite over target again and plenty of flak to welcome us. It was just like one solid wall. bits of flak hit various parts of kite including the starboard outer engine
No fighters were seen and only nine aircraft were lost. Every kite on our squadron had some damage due to flak.
Trip took 3¾ hours
Did two bombing runs as no Tis were down when we first arrived and that was no picnic
[page break]
50
13 Sept 1944. PFF Sqd 582
11th Operation.
Day. Target Osnabruck
Big railway junction.
Kite was E.
Slight flak
No fighters
Quite a good prang bags of black smoke looked as if some oil had been hit.
Cruised round target to watch the main force bomb. Saw the old cookies going down.
A real good trip
It lasted 4 hrs 5 mins.
Want rest of trips like this one
[page break]
55
[newspaper cutting]
PFF 582 Sqd.
12 th Operation.
15 Sept. Kiel Night.
Target was the town.
Medium flak
Few searchlights.
Night fighters just a few
Kite was O
First kite over target again
Saw Jerries spoof target indicators going down.
Quiet [sic] a decent prang bit that I saw of it.
The kite was in a terrible condition and I never expected it getting to Kiel never mind getting us back.
Trip lasted 5 hrs 35 mins. Similar to last Kiel raid.
First Electric storm we had experienced and it was quite interesting to watch.
[page break]
60
PFF 582 Sqd.
13th Operation
5 Oct. Saarbrucken .
Night.
Target was town which is a supply base for the Siegfreid [sic] line.
Medium flack
Plenty of fighters
As we were late we had to retain our flares.
Not a very eventful trip it lasted 5-10.
Seemed to be a very good prang bit what I saw of it.
Attacked by a JU88 but we evaded okay.
[page break]
65
2nd Rhur Trip
[newspaper cutting]
7 Oct. Saturday morning.
Just been out to the kite and up to now they have found 60 flak holes in her. The No 1 fuel tank (starb) had been holed and starb inner feathering pipe line almost in two
PFF Sqd 582
14th Operation.
6th Oct 1944 day.
Scholven (Rhur).
The most intense heavy predicted flak we have ever seen.
Every one of the engines hit. So many holes in kite that we couldn’t count them. Me and bomb aimer in the nose when nose was hit. Piece of flack hit him and went in his shoulder he is now in hospital. Gee what a feeling when that lump hit us.
We now have some respect for Jerries gunners.
No fighters
Trip lasted 3-45
[page break]
70
3rd Rhur Trip.
PFF 582 Sqd
15th Operation
12th Oct 1944. Day.
Wanneikel (Rhur.)
Worst trip we have had.
Not much flak but deadly accurate and we seemed to be the target all the time.
We were it on the way to the target but no extensive damage was done then we were hit on the bombing run. After bombing we were hit and the port inner started to smoke after it was feathered the starboard inner packed up and we found we couldn’t feather it.
The starboard outer had a bad oil leak and the temp went up to 130. With only two engines running we lost height down to 4500 and coming back away from the target they let us have it again this time hitting
[page break]
the oxygen supply lines.
We tried to get a landing field in Belgium and France but it was no good and we knew we should have to get it back to England. So we went south down France and across where the channel was the narrowest and obtained permission to land at Manston their emergency run way. With a deadly cross wind we got the undercart down with emergency air and managed to feather the starb inner engine. Then to finish things off in a fine style we found the starb wheel was flat. Well, on landing we swung over to starboard and ripped off one of the wheels. Then the kite caught fire and boy I reckon no one ever got out of a kite so quick as us. So after all the trouble we had, we had the pleasure of seeing the kite burn after one of the tanks had exploded and I guess that was the end of Apple.
But it was pretty hot and we didnt [sic] feel safe until we had two feet firmly on the floor.
Well thats [sic] the third time we have been shot up over the happy valley and believe me the Rhur is no picnic at night so in daylight as can be guessed it’s pretty grim.
Gee it was a close one.
[page break]
75
[aerial photograph]
Confirmed not only biggest RAF daylight raid but the heaviest raid ever on any target in the war (up to now). We dropped more than 4500 tons in 25 minutes.
BBC reporter gave very good description of the target as he saw it.
4th Rhur Trips.
16 Operation: PFF 582 Sqd.
Oct 14 1944. Day (Morning).
Bombed at 0907.
Duisburg. (Happy Valley).
Another Rhur trip but much more pleasant.
Flak didn’t hinder us at all got quite a real good bombing run and the target was well ablaze before I bombed.
Was the biggest show put on by Bomber Command in daylight over 1,000 bombers took part.
This was why the flak didn’t bother us very much.
No enemy fighters. We had 16 squadrons of fighters escorting us.
Very good trip it lasted 3 hrs 35 mins.
We carried incendries.
[page break]
80
5th Rhur Trip.
PFF 582 Sqd.
17th Operation.
Duisburg. Night.
Attacked at approx 0320 on morning of 15th Oct 1944.
Saw blaze from fires started in last raid about 100 miles from target and when we were coming back they were still visible 150 miles away.
The target was one huge blazing inferno but the flak was still rather active.
Saw no fighters
Didn’t’ fly with my crew I went with a crew whose engineer was on leave.
Not a bad trip picture of Lanc. dropping incenderies over Duisburg.
[page break]
85
18th Operation. PFF 582 Sqd
15 Oct. Night.
Wilhelmshaven.
Attacked at 1535 sat night. Naval base. Was the target.
Not a great deal of flak but it was pretty accurate.
Had to bomb on DR as we were first on and no Tis were down when we were there.
We were attacked by a fighter but rear gunner saw it coming in and we did evasive action and lost it.
Quite a good trip it lasted 4 hrs 10 mins
Kite was “B”eer
[page break]
16 Day Oct 1944.
Daily Express reporters impressions of the two Duisburg.
[newspaper cutting]
[page break]
90
6th Rhur Trip
PFF. 582 Sqd.
19th Operation
25 Oct. 1944. Daylight.
Target Homberg. Rhur.
(Opposite side of river to Duisburg)
Flak rather intense mainly from Duisburg.
No Fighters
Quite a sight to see all the bombers going out to Essen and to our target.
Couldn’t see results of the attack because of the thick cloud.
Saw one kite or what was left of it burning might have been a scare-crow.
Trip lasted approx 4 hrs
Kite was “E”asy.
[page break]
93
[aerial photograph]
PFF 582 Sqd.
20th Operation. 28 Oct 1944.
Walcheren.
Dutch Island.
Target Defence Positions.
No flak.
No fighters.
Bang on attack
bombed at 4,700
Perfect run in and got an aiming point.
Wouldn’t mind rest of trips like this one.
It only lasted about 2 hrs.
First time we have had icing as bad as this.
[page break]
98
PFF 582 Sqd.
Night
21st Operation. 30 Oct 1944.
Cologne.
Bags of predicted flak. Quiet [sic] a few fighters around
No searchlights.
Almost a full moon. 10 cloud. Bombed on Wanganowi [sic] flares.
Flak was shooting them out of the sky.
Hit in both starboard fuel tanks lost a lot of fuel. Both generators went for a burton and the 1196 us.
It lasted about. 4-40.
This is another trip I’ve done with another crew.
900 aircraft on.
[page break]
103
BBC reporter Richard Dimbleby flew with our squadron on the way back they were calling up George and asking if Richard was alright I didnt [sic] hear them call up and as if we were okay in L London though
PFF 582 Sqd.
22nd Operation. 31st Oct 1944.
Cologne.
Night.
Not very much flak. Bags of fighters and quite a lot were the new jet propulsion type
No searchlights.
full moon made almost like a daylight operation.
Were not hit at all by flak
Saw one kite shot down by flak over the target.
500 aircraft took part.
Went with same crew as last time.
[page break]
108
[indecipherable word] aiming point.
[newspaper cutting]
PFF 582 Sqd
23rd Operation 16 Nov 1944.
Target “Julich”.
Daylight.
Medium flak
No fighters seen
Had to feather port outer just out of target area. But not through enemy action. Made two runs over target.
Over 2,000 aircraft on these targets today. Most important raids since D day. Said this was the beginning of end of the Third Reich as the Americans were to advance across Rhine. These raids were prelude to the advance.
No flak damage this time again.
Trip lasted 4 hrs.
[page break]
113
[aerial photograph]
Caught a packet.
Saw no kites shot down but the bombing seemed rather haphazard.
Trip took 3 3/4 Hrs.
7th Rhur. PFF 582 Sqd.
24th Operation 18th Nov 1944
Target “Munster”.
Daylight.
No fighters.
Medium Flak.
Biggest daylight penetration by RAF Bomber Command and fighter opposition was expected but none were met.
Pretty accurate flak at points into the target but nothing to worry about. As we approached Munster we saw a bit of flak coming up and then it stopped all together
Had some trouble with Gee at take off and just before the target a hatch blew off and with the noise it made we thought we had
[page break]
118
8th Rhur trip PFF582 Sqd
25 th Operation. 21 Nov 1944.
Night
Target Castrop Rauxiel [sic]
Synthetic oil plant.
Medium flak.
Few fighters.
Bags of searchlights.
Got hit last time we went there but didn’t this time. Although the flak seemed pretty accurate.
The searchlights coned us once but we soon got away and I wasn’t sorry either.
We had no trouble with the fighters.
Not a bad trip saw bags of activity as we passed over the front line.
trip lasted 4 1/2 hrs approx.
[page break]
123
9th Ruhr Trip.
PFF 582 Sqd.
26 Operation. 27 November.
Target. Neuss.
Slight heavy flak.
No fighters.
Few searchlights.
No trouble at all on this trip one of the quietest trips we have had.
Saw bags of activity on the front line and they were firing at us with light flak but it caused us no trouble.
Trip lasted approx. 4 1/2 hrs.
[page break]
128
10th Rhur Trip
PFF582 Sqd.
27 Operation. 30 Nov.
Target. Duisburg.
Night.
Medium heavy flak
Very few searchlights.
No fighters.
a real good trip no trouble at all and it seemed quite a decent prang.
Use ground and sky markers but cloud hid ground Tis quite effectively.
Trip lasted 4 1/4 hrs.
[page break]
133
PFF 582 Sqd.
28 Operation. 3 Dec 1944.
Target. Heimbach.
Daylight.
Dam Busting.
Flak Nil.
Fighters Few. (ME 262)
Tactical Target.
Unable to bomb covered with cloud which was 1000 ft base so had to cancel raid. Brought all bombs back
Very disappointing raid
Raid lasted 4 1/2 hrs.
[page break]
138
PFF 582 Sqd.
29th Operation. 6th Dec 1944
Target: Leipzig.
Oil Refiner.
Bags of heavy flak.
Bags fighters.
No Searchlights.
Being the second largest oil refinery in Germany it was very well defended.
Were attacked by fighter. But we evaded them okay. Thanks to gunners spotting him.
Saw a target which was pranged earlier on by Bomber Command and boy was it blazing. This trip tired us out more than any. Maybe because we are used to the Rhur.
Trip lasted. 6 3/4 hrs.
[page break]
143
11 Rhur Trip.
PFF 582 Sqd.
30th Operation. 13 Dec 1944
Night.
Target Essen.
Rail Centre.
Very heavy heavy flak.
Lot of fighters.
No searchlights.
Not a bad trip but the flak was pretty heavy and very accurate
Quiet [sic] a few jet fighters knocking around but we wern’t [sic] attacked.
saw two kites shot down over target.
Trip lasted approx 4 hrs.
[page break]
148
[aerial photograph]
PFF 582Sqd.
31st Operation 15 Dec
Target. Ludwigshaven
Chemical Industry.
Slight heavy flak.
No fighters.
Lots of searchlights.
Feathered engine going to target after it had caught fire. That was after I had feathered the wrong one. I sure had my finger jammed then. Had a little difficulty on landing with choosing the grass to land on instead of the runway. Finger trouble again. Looked a real good prang.
Trip lasted approx 5 hrs.
[page break]
152
12th Rhur Trip.
152.
PFF 582 Sqd.
32nd Operation. 18 Dec.
Target
Duisburg.
Slight heavy flak.
Few fighters.
Few searchlights.
Flak did cause us to alter course coming out of the target but other than that it caused us no trouble at all.
One fighter crossed just above us from starboard to port but he didnt [sic] see us.
Coming out of the target we were attacked. Rear Gunner let him have it. but he didnt [sic] return our fire and we lost him. Not a bad trip.
It lasted 4 3/4 hrs.
[page break]
End of Tour.
No of trips 32
German 26
French 5
Dutch 1.
No of Daylights. 14
No of Nights 18
No of Rhur Trips 12
Total No of Points 152.
Pilot. JE Brown (three engine Brown they call me)
Navigator. F Dockar
Bomb Aimer. M Reid
Wireless Operator.
Mid Upper Gunner. J. D. Smith
Rear Gunner. [signature]
Engineer. [signature]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
ER James War Diary
Description
An account of the resource
A detailed diary of ER James' operations. On the first pages are a photograph of his crew and their names. Included with the text are several aerial photographs and newspaper cuttings.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
38 page handwritten diary
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Diary
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Stuttgart
France--Le Havre
France--Creil
France--Paris
France--Blaye
France--Caen
Poland--Szczecin
Russia (Federation)--Kaliningrad (Kaliningradskai︠a︡ oblastʹ)
Germany--Castrop-Rauxel
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Netherlands--Walcheren
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Jülich
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Essen
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
France
Germany
Poland
Netherlands
Russia (Federation)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
YJamesER[Ser#-DoB]v1
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jan Waller
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
E R James
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-28
1944-07-31
1944-08-03
1944-08-04
1944-08-05
1944-08-07
1944-08-29
1944-09-11
1944-09-13
1944-09-15
1944-10-05
1944-10-06
1944-10-12
1944-10-14
1944-10-17
1944-10-15
1944-10-16
1944-10-25
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-10-31
1944-11-16
1944-11-18
1944-11-21
1944-11-30
1944-12-03
1944-12-06
1944-12-13
1944-12-15
1944-12-18
576 Squadron
582 Squadron
aerial photograph
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bomb struck
bombing
Bombing of Trossy St Maximin (3 August 1944)
flight engineer
forced landing
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Ju 88
Lancaster
Me 262
Mosquito
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
pilot
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Lindholme
RAF Little Staughton
RAF Manston
RAF Worksop
Spitfire
tactical support for Normandy troops
target indicator
target photograph
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2100/34842/SWeirG19660703v110011.2.jpg
07696fbbba01f39fc9288c3f32d34be3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Weir, Greg. Jubb, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
62 items. Collection concerns Pilot Officer Robert Venter Jubb DFC (b 1922, 426609 Royal Australian Air Force), a Halifax pilot he flew operations on 76 and 462 Squadrons between July and November 1944 when his aircraft was shot down. He evaded capture but remainder of crew were caught and became prisoners of war. Collection contains his log book, newspaper cuttings, photographs (including his target photographs), documents, correspondence and operational route maps.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-26
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Weir, G
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Fifth day
Two other objectives were an auto-engine plant near Kiel, and an ordnance depot at Friedrichstadt, near Magdeburg.
In the afternoon R.A.F. Bomber Command [underlined] Halifaxes [/underlined] “in strength,” which probably means up to 500, with fighter cover, smashed at two synthetic plants in [underlined] the Ruhr [/underlined] – at [underlined] Scholven-Buer and Wanne-Eickel. [/underlined]
This was the fifth day of the great battle for Germany’s dwindling oil supplies
The Luftwaffe, probably influenced by Monday’s crippling fighter losses, reacted only half-heartedly to the U.S. attack. Nevertheless they lost about 45 planes in the air and 25 on the ground.
A few jet-propelled planes were used by the enemy.
The Wasserburg factory at Ulm, where the jet-propelled Messerschmitt 262 is made, and an aerodrome at Lechfeld, where many of these secret planes have been seen, were bombed yesterday by up to 500 U.S. heavies from Italy.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fifth Day
Description
An account of the resource
Description of attack by bomber command Halifax aircraft on synthetic oil plants. Mentions German jet aircraft.
This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Magdeburg
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Ulm
Germany--Augsburg
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
Wehrmacht
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One newspaper cutting
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SWeirG19660703v110011
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription. Under review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
bombing
Halifax
Me 262
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/627/19786/MPettyD189456-160831-01.1.jpg
5fbeec3b9f2e7eae44e16d68e954b091
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Petty, Doug
Douglas Petty
D Petty
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Petty, D
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer Douglas Petty ( 1923 - 2023, 189456 Royal Air Force) documents and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 429 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Douglas Petty and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Flying Officer Douglas Petty. Flight Engineer 189456 Born 11th Jan 1923 in ShiId on Co DurhamVolunteered for R.A.F., called up June 1943, enrolment in London as A.C. 2 number 1592021.Posted to Torquay to No 21 initial training wing, No3 squadron B flight for basic training. Then to St Athan in South Wales to train as a Flight Engineer .Com p leted course in March 1944 & awarded my F.E certificate no 86 entry dated 8th March 1944 with a 71% pass. Promoted to Sgt & posted to 1659 conversion unit at Topcliffe N Yorks. Crewed up with an all Canadian crew F/0 Claridge, Pilot, Bullen navigator, F/0 Mannion, Bomb Aimer, Sgt Tammela , Radio Operator, Sgt Jodrell, Mid Upper gunner & Sgt Hay, rear gunner.
Commenced Flying training on 15/4/44 completed on 1/6/44. Posted to Leeming, flew first training flight on 7/6/44.
First operational flight with F/0 Lasik on 14/8/44.Lost F/o Claridge,posted back to Topcliffe for new pilot F/o Mitchell.
Returned to Leeming & commenced operational flying on 12/9/44
Completed 31 operation sorties Promoted to Pilot Officer No 189456 during tour then to F/0. Completed tour on
31/3/45. The crew then consisted of 6 Officers & one Sgt the Sgt was wireless operator E Tammela, Four of the crew
were awarded D.F.Cs These awards were in recognition of the mining operations They were Pilot ,Navigator, Bomb aimer
& Mid upper gunner.
Aircraft flown during this time were Halifax 2.3 &5 ,Lancaster 1&3 .Engines were R.R Merlin & Bristol Radial.
My details are.
13Hrs 35 mins on Link trainer to act as second pilot. Flying training was 165.24 hrs of which 4 were flying the aircraft
including two landings. Operational flying191.25 hrs .These consisted of 7 daylight ,15 night & 9 Minelaying . Carrying
58 tons of bombs .36 canisters of incendiaries & 27 mines. Giving an average load of 10,000 lbs or 4.4 tons
Incidents during tour includ ed Sept 44 , cross country training , mixed with German raid on Bristol.12th Oct 44,
daylight raid on Wanna Eickel, flack damage with pieces in Engineers panel .27th Nov diverted to Woodbridge (fog) landed
with the aid of F.I.D.O fog dispersal system. 12th Jan 45 mine laying at Kiel . J.U 88 shot down by gunners on second attack , we
were only aircraft to return. 1st Feb 45 night raid on Mainz returned on 3 engines , One damaged by flak.
31st March daylight attack on Hamburg attacked by Me262s I used nose guns to help repel attacks.
Completed tour in April 45, me to Air HQ Delhi the Canadians back home. I returned home in March 47 to one of the worst
winters on record. I was demobilised in April 47.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Officer Douglas Petty Memoirs
Description
An account of the resource
Brief memoirs recorded by Doug Petty during his RAF service. They cover the period from June 1943 to April 1947.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Doug Petty
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One typewritten sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MPettyD189456-160831-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Shildon
England--Torquay
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
India--New Delhi
Germany
India
England--Devon
England--Durham (County)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
1659 HCU
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Distinguished Flying Cross
FIDO
flight engineer
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Me 262
mine laying
RAF Leeming
RAF St Athan
RAF Topcliffe
RAF Torquay
RAF Woodbridge
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1858/33473/BDavyHDavyHv1.1.pdf
c0d8b39f8730f4a4159c30d53ea11917
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Davy, H
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Davy, H
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection concerns H Davy (1852721 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, memoir and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 626 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Nancy Davy and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
General memories
I volunteered for Aircrew aged 18 and after examinations and Medical reported for duty in March 1943.
RAF Number 1852721 (only the last three numbers were used)
Ops as detailed but not counted as part of tour 3
Number of ops 31
Therefore apart from training total number of ops was 34
I trained for 12 to 15 months in different places. As civilians we reported to Air Crew Reception Centre, at Lord's Cricket Ground in "The Long Room" London for three weeks. (6.98.A) We ate in the Zoo restaurant. Then to Initial Training Wing (ITW) Bridlington, Morpeth for Gunnery school where I was the course leader. Final exams had 98% Loved what I was doing. A Martinet towed a drogue for the rest of us to practise our gunnery skills above the North Sea. Wymeswold for "crewing-up", then Castle Donington to start training as a crew (Operational Training Unit); Lindholme Heavy conversion unit (HCU) to train on 4 engine bombers (Halifaxes); Hemswell Lancaster finishing school where we converted to Lancasters before going on to the Squadron in May 1944.
At ACRC I remember John Newbegin from Alnwick. I was in the bunk above him. He asked my name, I replied "Spike" and thereafter he called me Spike.
At the medical line up I was called in early. The MO said "Mr. Davy meet Mrs Davy". She was Thelma the wife of my cousin from Calstock. We had never met but she recognised my name on the list.
A lot of men were killed during training.
At Bridlington I got Scarlet Fever & confined to isolation hospital for six weeks. Plus two weeks recuperation leave which put me eight weeks behind those I joined up with.
When I went to Uxbridge for final Demob two others from that original intake said to me "We thought you were dead" They had accounted for only nine out of the sixty still alive. So perhaps scarlet fever saved my life.
To Wymeswold for 3 weeks Operation Training Unit (OTU).
At Wymeswold 200 or 300 crew were put into a hut and told to make up crews. Before this we were marching from place to place (perhaps to a lecture) and I was next to Sam Collens and we talked about our training experiences. I had passed out as 2nd out of 60 as a gunner. Sam said to me Harry Merry will join me as Flight Engineer, will you join us and I said yes can I be Rear Gunner and he replied yes you are my first crew member. After that the whole 626 aircrew intake was taken to a hut and instructed to form crews. All the men mingled and talked and somehow Sam collected his crew together. Tommy Birch BA, Joe Slack MUG, Ron Rainbird WO. Harry Merry would not join us until we had completed our initial training on twin-engined Wellingtons, the reason being that only 4 engine bombers carries a Flight Engineer. Harry joined us at Lindholme, a heavy conversion unit for 4 engine Halifaxes. Sam had met a Navigator Ted Davies, a pharmacist from Northhampton [sic]. A Welshman, short stature, handlebar moustache, super chap. I gelled with him from the beginning & were great pals. His wife was running the business during his absence.
[page break]
After Wymeswold half the contingent stayed there & half including us went to Castle Donnington for OTU.
We used ex-operational, clapped out Wellingtons for 6 weeks training. Very happy there. The Sword of Damacles hung over us as the culmination of this course was a series of decoy flights across the North Sea to draw German fighters away from the main Bomber stream. Also to carry out leaflet raids over Europe, in our case Paris. (called ops as detailed but not counted as operational). Bear in mind the Wellington had two engines & if one failed the plane could not get back on one engine. This meant they either crashed or ditched in the sea. Some crashed on take-off, one into the woods at the end of the run-way & all crew lost.
From Castle Donnington to Lindholme near Doncaster for Heavy Conversion Unit (HCU) & onto 4 engine heavy Halifaxes. Here Harry Merry joined us. A few weeks doing practice flights.
From there to Lancaster finishing school at Hemswell nr Gainsborough, Lincolnshire for final training in Lancs. End of training. Then posted to Operational Squadron, One Group Bomber Command, 626 Squadron at Wickenby near Lincoln.
Throughout the time of training as a crew we were warned on numerous occasions that if we withdrew from training no action would be taken, but if we withdrew after completion of training we would be reduced to ranks, loose [sic] our wings, & all documents would have Lack of Moral Fibre written across them. (Cowardice in the face of the enemy). We would then be sent to a correction establishment at Sheffield before being posted into the Army.
At OTU the final chance was given. On this occasion the Navigator Ted Davies left the crew as his wife was bordering on a nervous breakdown due to his flying career. He wanted to go on but withdrew.
Immediately navigator Jack Leuty joined us. He was an "odd bod" waiting to join a crew. He had spent time training navigators in Canada and his experiences meant he had flown cross country from brightly lit city to city whereas in Britain we had had blackouts for four years.
Most of our operations were at night in the dark.
When we were on the Squadron Joe Slack left us and was replaced by an Irishman Paddy Fulton.
At the end of our own tour of 30 ops (31 actually) we went on 6 months rest from operational duty. Paddy had not completed 30 ops so was posted to another crew. He begged to stay with us, even cried, but was not allowed to. He was killed on his next op with the new crew.
At Wickenby
Pilot – Pilot Officer B.A. (Sam) Collens
Flight Engineer – Sergeant Harry Merry
Navigator – Flight Lieutenant Jack Leuty
Mid Upper Gunner – Sergeant John (Paddy) Fulton
Bomb Aimer – Sergeant Tommy Birch
Wireless Operator – Sergeant Ron (Ronald Thomas) Rainbird
Rear Gunner – Sergeant Herbert Davy (then k/a Bert now k/a Herb or Herbie)
Crews became closer than brothers. Age 19 I was the youngest of our crew. We spent leisure time together, drank together, spent leave together (Sam & Tommy came to Saltash). Relied on each other in the aircraft. We knew we might die together.
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Accommodation was it [sic] huts. Officers had separate accommodation so Sam slept apart from us. We would wake some mornings and find 6 (or 7) empty beds in our hut. It was a fact of life that promotion was rapid because of the high rate of casualties and turnover of Aircrew.
Take off --- us from Wickenby
Up to 1 hour to climb to 10,000ft
500 planes all circling
Congregate over Mablethorpe, Lincs
9p.m. all navigation lights out
All to go in one direction across North Sea
Sometimes collisions in the dark
Could get caught up in the slipstream of the aircraft ahead and crash
Over the targets bombs dropping all around from other planes, from above.
Look up and see gaping open bomb doors in plane above
One fell between our wing and tail
Interrogation after each operation. (Now called de-briefing)
Model -- Lanc III manufactured in Canada
Didn't use the same plane each time because we had 7 days leave every 6 weeks and they were used by other crews. The one we used last may have been shot down.
I remember three in particular:
Sugar 2 S2
Victor 2 V2
Roger 2 R2 Also known as Bennets Beavers
Each Squadron had letters 12 was PH 626 was UM
Each plane in each squadron had a letter – 12 just the letter, 626 the letter plus 2
Station code name/call sign was GRATEFUL
e.g. our plane would be UM O R2
Also V2 H2 Y2 U2 T2 Z2 L2
When R2 (known as Bennetts Beavers after a previous pilot) became available Sam asked to use it because he knew it was a faster aircraft than others.
We now know PA990 R2 Bennetts Beavers was a "ton-up" Lanc. One of few that went out on and survived 100 operations or more. (105; some didn't even come back from one).
Roger 2 was the plane we used when we flew down across Kit Hill and Liskeard (where I could see our milkman delivering), the Lizard, 300 miles out into the Atlantic by daylight & under 1000ft to keep below the German RADAR & into Pauillac (near Bordeaux) to bomb
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the oil tank farm. (I now know I flew across Coombe Park, a farm where Luke held Nancy (age 5) in his arms to see the planes passing overhead, August 4th 1944).
We used R2 for Westkapelle.
Westkapelle was our last op. In 2005 I read that our Navigator was F/O L. Andrews. I have no recollection whatsoever of this substitute or why Jack Leuty wasn't with us. I remember the day well and it is recorded for the Polderhuis Museum at Westkapelle.
Again in 2005 I was asked if the crew ever swapped places. Some records showed that crews did, or flew with substitutes, but then records may not be correct. They were sometimes based on the planes that crews usually flew, not the ones they actually did fly.
The only time we did swap was when we returned from one op with a bomb still on board. We could not land (for fear of blowing up on the runway) so had to dispose of the bomb in the North Sea as was usual practice. Sam asked Tommy if he would like to pilot the plane, (he certainly would and did) and I went to bomb aimer's position and directed the bomb down to a wave I had my eye on. I cannot remember who covered my position.
Corkscrewing to avoid German air attack. The responsibility of the Rear Gunner was the protection of the plane and crew. He was required to give 100% concentration on continually scanning the sky – especially the dark side – to give adequate warning and instruction to the Pilot on what evasive action to take. Highly trained in aircraft recognition.
Majority of enemy fighter attacks were from dark side of the sky so that we were silhouetted against the light. The RG had to concentrate his search on the dark side when the tendency would be to look to the light. (Instructions said never look at lights) e.g. if the attack came from port side the RG would instruct Pilot to corkscrew port – first a 1000ft dive to port followed by 1000ft climb to starboard, then 1000ft dive to starboard followed by 1000ft climb to port which would bring the plane back to it's normal flight path. This procedure was repeated until the fighter abandoned his chase or either of us was shot down. (We now know that some German pilots gave up when they saw that we were alert and ready, and went in search of an easier target.) During a corkscrew anything loose and moveable inside the plane would speedily fly round and cause damage. Especially stomach contents!!
We used T2 for Frankfurt when we were badly shot up. We went via Mannheim in error (Don't know the reason why – navigational, wind, what? I do not know why we should be separated from the others by 50 miles or so.) Approaching what we thought was the target Frankfurt, B/A Tommy offered to help Navigator Jack by describing the ground scene. It was clear moonlight and he described the railway lines and river. "We're following the rail line now the river now the river divides" It obviously differed from the map because Jack said "Did you say the river divides? Christ we're over Mannheim!" That's when the blue searchlight came up. We were coned in searchlights, Sam called up "what shall I do Bert?" I replied "dive to port at top speed & get the hell out of here". I remember seeing the wings flapping. Speed was registered 400mph. by Harry Merry. (normal operating speed was between 180 – 210mph) dropped 18,000ft to 14,000ft. We were badly attacked by anti-aircraft guns, anything they could throw at us. After recovery, Sam said "navigator give me a course for Frankfurt". I can remember my thoughts-they are unprintable. I thought we'd had it. We were way after the main attack so we were a lone aircraft, vulnerable again but apparently not noticed/recognised by ground defences. Perhaps because we approached from the South instead of North. The target marker was still visible so dropped the bombs &
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returned for home. Sam said "course for Woodbridge" The port side engine had to be feathered because the fuel tank had been punctured. I saw what I thought was smoke and reported one engine on fire, but it was fuel. Wireless operator went back through plane & felt what he thought was blood on mid-upper gunner. "He's had it" Minutes later crackle on line & MUG said "what's the matter with you lot. I can't get any reply". He was covered in hydraulic fluid. Tommy reported bomb bay doors would not close. At some stage I know I opened my door to get back into the plane and to my parachute if were possible.
We had to land at Woodbridge an emergency airfield in Suffolk with a 5000yd runway, on three engines & bomb doors open. No radio & not knowing if undercarriage was down. The next day when we inspected the plane and talked this is what we found:
Each member of the crew had evidence of his position being damaged by missiles. I had a hold 2 inches in diameter where the doors joined (centre of backrest) behind my seat and in the gunmounting in front of me. The pilot and flight engineer sat side by side on the flight deck. There were holes in the Perspex either side of the flight deck where their heads would normally be. Tommy lying on his stomach in the bombing position had shrapnel in his harness over his heart. There were holes at all crew positions. Did we all lean sideways to look at something at the same time? There was a hole in the bomb door and a dent in the top of the bomb bay obviously caused before the bomb was dropped. Why didn't the 4000lb bomb explode inside the plane?
The thoughts that went through my mind when we were over Mannheim:
If I get out of the plane where would I land? On buildings, trees, water, forest?
On our second trip to Stettin
Did all the crew fall asleep returning over the North Sea? It was a crime. Crossed North Sea, crossed Denmark, across Sweden over Malmo, across the Baltic then to Stettin. Returned the same route. After crossing Danish coast into the North Sea I heard Bomb Aimer say to Navigator "We are just crossing the Danish coast" The Navigator replied "our ETA on English coast one hour" The next thing I can remember is hearing the Bomb Aimer's voice "hello Navigator, just crossing the English coast". Two or three nights later we were in the Adam & Eve (pub) Wragby. It was my turn to buy the drinks. Harry Merry helped me. He said "You were asleep in your turret, I saw you when I went to the Elsan". He passed the Wireless operator who was asleep at his table, no reaction from Mid Upper Gunner, climbed over Elsan slid down to rear turret looked through window & saw me slouched over guns. Retraced his steps shone torch down into Bomb Aimer & saw Tommy asleep. Thought to himself I will keep watch. Pilot asleep in his seat & next thing Harry knew was when Tommy said "just cross English coast". Meaning that at one point the whole crew had been asleep. Reasoning --- on this long trip we were issued with two wakey-wakey pills to be taken at regular intervals (4 hourly periods). Perhaps we took them too early & when the effect wore off they left you feeling very drowsy.
The lights of Malmo – memorable after the darkness of Britain.
Premonitions
One day the rear turret was leaking oil. I told Pilot we could not or should not fly. He agreed. Terrible losses that night. The next day the leak had cleared up. Afterwards other crew asked did I have a premonition. Yes. They all did too. Harry Merry said "Why didn't you want to fly in that raid?" I replied "Because if we had we would not be here now". He said he agreed & that other crew had felt the same without mentioning names.
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Over Stettin, over target, a voice from the cockpit said "crumbs, there's a bloody fighter coming straight for us!" They envisaged a head-on collision. I saw it as it passed over and above us. I was sure it was an Me262 the first true jet fighter.
Over 50 years later I met Dave Wellard, another Rear Gunner from 626 Squadron who lived in Saltash and he told me the same story. (We had never met before.) His plane was on the same mission. Were we side by side? Was there only the one fighter or two? He also recognised it as an Me262.
After we finished flying Sam was posted to RAF Whitchurch, Bristol. Harry Merry came down from Weeton, Lancs where he was stationed. I came from Avonmouth where I was stationed & met at pub at Whitchurch. When I walked in the door Harry shook my hand and said "Here's old Cat's Eyes. If it hadn't been for you, you bugger, we wouldn't be here now". He always called me Cat's Eyes.
Jack Leuty always asking for a fag, but when someone asked him for one he said "I'll sell you ten" I can remember being absolutely disgusted with his attitude. He was the only crew member who kept aloof from any of the others.
Mrs Lane a customer said to me when she heard I was joining the RAF "you might meet my son Pat" We didn't know each other. One day in the dispersal someone was using my cleaning rods without asking permission. I said to him "Next time ask". He had a Cornish accent. Told me he was from Saltash so I said to him "I suppose you are Pat Lane" He nearly fell over in surprise. "how the hell do you know that?"
Clothes:
Aircrew: I think only the gunners were issued with mustard-yellow coloured buoyancy suits but they proved to be far too bulky especially for Rear gunners because although it was possible to squeeze into the turret with them on it was virtually impossible to escape quickly. I never saw anyone wear one on operations!!! Consider temperature in the rear turret could be as low as -40° C. The main fuselage of the Lanc had hot air ducted from the engines hence the rest of the crew did not need to dress like rear gunners. Also rear gunners removed the Perspex window to get better vision. See photo of HD standing beside turret.
Order of dressing:
1. Long johns – made of wool plated with silk. 2 pieces long sleeved vest and full length pants.
2. RAF issue socks
3. Shirt and tie
4. RAF uniform trousers
5. "SUB" socks. Socks from toe to crotch Naval issue, thick knit (Submarine)
6. "SUB" sweater as above. Full length sleeves and hip length.
7. Thin cotton type electrically heated suit
8. Battle dress top
9. Electrically heated slippers
10. Fur lined leather boots (Escape variety, cut the tops off with the knife in an inside little pocket and they looked like shoes)
11. Silk gloves
12. Woollen mittens and small woollen scarf
13. Padded heated gauntlets
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14. Leather gauntlets with zips and elasticated top
15. MAE West floatation waistcoat filled with kapok
16. Parachute harness
17. Leather helmet with oxygen mask, microphone and earphones
We would take half an hour to dress, especially in summer. It was important not to get sweaty because it would freeze when we were airborne in cold temperatures.
It was impossible to use bodily functions in the rear turret. Sometimes for up to 10 or 11 hours. I drank little during the day before an op. The other crew could use the Elsan toilet situated in the aircraft behind the rear turret. I was only once airsick. I used one of my gauntlets and then threw it out the window. The gauntlet was replaced.
My parachute had to be stored in the aircraft behind the rear turret. If I needed it in a hurry it would have been impossible to get at it.
Personal Survival kit: (for all Bomber Crews) called Escape Kit.
Waterproof flat pouch approx 6x5 inches containing maps of European countries printed on silk each about 7 inches square, together with currency of European countries for use as necessary if shot down, could be used either to "pay" helpers or bribe people.
Celluloid flat box approx 5x4 inches containing 1 razor, 1 blade, 1 tube condensed milk, Horlicks tablets, aspirins, adhesive plasters, amongst other things now forgotten.
Compasses: small compasses were hidden on the uniform. E.g. a uniform button which unscrewed with a left-hand thread (to fox the Germans). A navigator's pencil which when broken in half revealed a bar compass on a piece of thread. Another small compass was sewn behind the brevet (flying wing badge).
Two metal trouser fly buttons when balanced one on top of the other had a white spot which indicated North
We were told that some crews who miraculously escaped their plane complained that the tube of shaving soap was useless. Of course it was an unlabelled tube of condensed milk.
Flying Rations for each operation consisited [sic] of 1 x two ounce bar of Fry's chocolate cream, 1 x two ounce bar of milk chocolate, one packet of chewing gum, and 1 x 4 fluid ounce can of orange juice. One Benzadrine (wakey-wakey pill) which once taken kept you awake for four hours.
To open my small tin of orange juice in the turret I pierced it with a bullet held sharp end down which I hit with my other hand.
Pair of fleece lined shoes attached to gaiters. One gaiter had a small knife concealed inside. On crash landing gaiters were to be cut off so that shoes would look like normal ones.
The Rear Gunner in his turret was not inside the plane but on a "platform" at the rear. To clamber into the turret was a time consuming and awkward business. The Elsam toilet at the rear of the fuselage had a hinged lid secured by an elastic rope. This was the RG's step onto a plywood shute. Partway down the shute was a hinged door secured by another elastic rope which closed automatically after passing through. Once through that door you placed your parachute pack in stowage on the port side of the aircraft, on hooks and again secured by elastic rope. Then still sliding, through two small sliding doors which were closed behind you after entry, forming a backrest. The gunner sat on a small lightly upholstered shelf-like seat for the duration of the operation with no room to move around. One door had a small porthole window. Plug in intercom & oxygen mask and check guns, sights etc. Equipped with 4x
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.303 Browning machine guns. The windows were Perspex which after cleaning became scratched, difficult to see through and susceptible to glare from searchlights & suchlike. Most RG's cut a panel 3ft high x 1ft wide out of the main window between the guns. The temperature could be up to -40°C. If the engines failed there was no power to the rear turret so I could do nothing.
If I needed to escape from my turret, or had the opportunity to bale out, I had to open the small doors behind me (my backrest), & manoeuvre back up the shute to pick up my parachute, then through the first door back into the fuselage proper. In theory in an emergency it should have been possible to turn the turret around and fall backwards out of the "backrest" doors. If the engines failed, no power so I could do nothing other than laboriously hand-crank the turret using two handles, one in each hand and each turning opposite to the other.
I was facing backwards in my turret so had to remember when giving observations and instructions to the other crew that "port was starboard".
I used to regularly mentally practice how I would get out if I had the opportunity. I never wore my cumbersome buoyancy suit. I removed my Perspex window for better vision and I decided I would rather die of cold than being shot down in flames. On the trip which took us to Mannheim in error I can remember I opened my "backrest" doors ready for evacuation if that were to be possible.
Rear Gunners were usually the first target for German fighter planes, and they were often the worst casualties of other attacks or crash landings. A Lanc could land at home base minus the R.G. There were stories of turrets being hosed out.
I am sometimes asked if I was afraid. Of course most of us were scared before take-off, but once airborne training took over and we all did our jobs. Anyone who professed to no fear often took stupid chances and made mistakes. Over the targets and when under attack we just had to get on with it, took evasive action when possible and hoped to survive. Once the bombs had gone there was a sense of relief but also easy to drop your guard. After leaving the target many planes were shot down by the following German fighters. I always said a prayer before take-off and heaved a sigh of relief and thanks each time my turret touched down at Wickenby. I know that our crew was among the lucky ones.
Many Aircrew carried a lucky charm or item on every op. and most carried out small rituals before take-off. When I was training my sister Peggy gave me a Cornish Piskie (Joan the Wad) bronze lapel brooch which I wore on my battle dress jacket all the time.
Sam carried a whole cashew nut. The others did not say if they carried such things.
Before briefing we usually had a shrewd idea of the sort of destination. The ground crew could tell from the fuel load and bomb load whether it was to be a long trip or short one thus guessing it would be Germany or Occupied Territories.
Briefing.
Pubs:
When at Bridlington the "Dun'cow" near Newcastle.
When at Castle Donnington the "Turk's Head". (with Sam & crew)
When at Lindholme the pub at Hatfield Woodhouse. (with Sam & crew)
When at Wickenby the "Adam & Eve" at Wragby (with Sam & crew) because the pub at
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Wickenby was a long way from our billets and a long way to walk. Mainly No. 12 Squadron used it.
Once or twice when in London on leave Sam, Harry & I, went to the "Queens" in Leicester Square til closing time 2p.m. Then to the Hong Kong Chinese Restaurant Shaftsbury Avenue. Then back to the "Queens" at 6p.m. Nearly all Aircrew there.
If we weren't on the battle order for that night we would all go down to the pub. The exception was Jack Leuty Navigator who seemed to keep himself to himself off duty. We made the most of each day because none of us knew if we would return from our operations. We did not go to the pub when we were on battle order.
I can remember one incident. Montgomery was held up at Caen the most heavily defended city in Normandy. He asked Bomber Command to destroy the German front lines so that 2nd Army could advance towards Germany. We had to bomb in daylight because the Allied Force was only 1200yds from the bombing area. Unfortunately the weather was bad so we were told to stand by in camp until it cleared. After three days there was no let up in the weather so most crews went down to the "Adam & Eve" for a few beers. At around 9p.m. the Wing Commander walked in. He very quietly said "I think you chaps should be back in bed, not down here". We knew what that meant so we all duly returned to billets.
We were woken at about 2a.m. to prepare for ops. (breakfast, dress, briefing etc) The briefing was to bomb the target short of the Allied lines. We were told the Americans had bombed the previous day and hit the Allied lines. En route I wanted to vomit probably because of the beer the previous night – the only time I ever felt sick. That's when I was sick in my gauntlet & tossed it out through the clear vision panel. As we approached the target area we saw "box barrage" of flak put up by the Germans. We were flying at approx. 12000ft, and the barrage was approx 1000ft above and below us. Like a curtain or a lethal Commando boarding net hanging in the sky. We had to fly straight through it. I personally witnessed seven Lancs go down. I have since met members of the Expediency Force who were on the ground who told me in words to the effect "your bombing was wonderful-not like those Americans yesterday. Not one of your bombs landed on our lines".
Coming home after one operation with landing lights on we were attacked by USA planes.
Sam to W/O "send up colour of the day"
Did they mistake us for Doodlebugs which had a red tail?
After the tour of operations all Aircrew were given a six months rest job before going back to another tour of flying operations. I was posted to report to an Aircrew Allocation Centre on a small disused airfield called Bracla near Nairn in North of Scotland. (Moray Firth). October. It seemed the coldest place on earth. The others were sent to different places. Don't know why and don't know why I was sent to Bracla. We were interviewed for three weeks for a choice of "Rest Jobs". Harry Merry was at Weeton, Lancashire. Can't remember where Sam and the others went. Tommy did Instructing.
Given three choices:
1. Embarkation Assistant, Movement Control, Ships in Ports in ports anywhere in the UK being responsible for meeting personnel and families on leave from abroad and checking RAF cargoes mostly from America and Canada (supplies for Armed Forces).
2. Transport.
3. To be an Instructor of Aircrews.
At the end of the three weeks we were allowed to choose. I was allowed my first choice
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Embarkation Control because I was interested in ships. Also someone had told me it was a nice job. Posted to a Service Camp at Kirkham near Preston, Lancashire for three weeks training for my new job. Discovered that Harry Merry was only twelve miles away but unable to meet because of the vagaries of transport in those days.
Then to Port of Bristol Authority – Avonmouth Docks where I was billeted with a civilian family the Bentleys. (Their son later played soccer for England team). Many happy weeks in that area. Among my duties there I was involved with unloading a ship carrying 128 wives and families returning from the West Indies on a banana boat which brought the first consignment of Fyffes bananas to England since 1939. Wonderful to taste this delicacy after so many years (1945). Had a good time in the docks boarding ships and receiving hospitality. Whilst I was there V.E. Day was celebrated with street parties. During my time there met up with Sam & Harry in a pub.
After that I was posted to Newhaven, Sussex, checking RAF personnel coming ashore on the cross-channel ferries from France. Again billeted with a civilian family Mrs. Bishop.
Another happy time.
At Newhaven I was expecting to be recalled to flying duties to Burma when V.J. Day was announced. Shortly afterwards my father without my knowledge managed to obtain a compassionate discharge for me to return to the family butchery business in Saltash. I was furious. Later I understood that all ranks except officers were demoted and sent to other jobs. Many of course continued flying.
Afterwards.
At the completion of flying operations crews would part with a handshake and promise to keep in touch. Of course many did, some went on to illustrious careers and many have kept up contact with various Squadron and Aircrew Associations but strange as it may seem now a large number lost contact. Some were traumatised, some just wanted to forget. Some wanted nothing more to do with Service life. We all got on with our lives and some like me suffered no post-war trauma but never forgot those years. It was my impression that Jack Leuty and Ron Rainbird did not want to continue the bond we had made.
Sam, Harry & I met up a couple of times. Sam married Brenda and came to Cornwall for their honeymoon.at [sic] Looe. They & Harry returned to the West Indies.
I married Nancy in 1959 and she will tell you that it doesn't take much to trigger a story or on meeting a stranger soon find I was stationed in their part of the country.
In 1959 Sam, Brenda and their four young boys came to Plymouth on a liner, stayed in a bed and breakfast in Saltash for a couple of nights and spent time with us. Then we lost touch again. One day (date not known) Tommy and Jenny came to Saltash from Leigh-on-Sea and looked me up in the shop. I was another of our depots, and left instructions not to forward telephone calls. However, Nancy phoned and said "a call for you". Tommy's voice came over the line "Bomb Aimer to Rear Gunner". The start of a renewed and lifelong friendship.
Nancy remarked how eerie it was to hear the same stories and memories from a complete stranger.
I knew a Merchant Navy Captain who was going to Trinidad and asked him to find Harry Merry for me. He came back with an address.
As a surprise for our 25th Wedding Anniversary Nancy wrote to Harry and asked him to telephone on a certain day, certain time, and if he knew where Sam was to ask him to phone too. Sam & Brenda by now living in Canada.
Tommy & Jenny stayed with us for the anniversary (a party for family and friends) and lo and behold at the designated hour the phone rang & it was Harry, then Sam. What a reunion
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down the line. Sam & Brenda came to stay with us on a visit to England and we had a most wonderful time. Harry died before Nancy could meet him. After Sam's untimely death Brenda came again and we to Missasauga. Tommy died having a heart attack whilst driving, but we keep up with Jenny.
On leave Sam came to Saltash once or twice with me.
Tommy came twice. On one occasion we put my motor bike on the train at Wickenby to London, somehow got across London then by train to Bristol. We had come straight from an op with no sleep so were very tired. I said I know a place in Weston Super Mare that might be able to put us up so we rode there. It was a sort of hotel/retirement home (so-called in those days for retired gentle folk) where my father used to stay on his Ministerial visits. Mr. Cottle the owner recognised me and said of course he could find us beds. After a good breakfast the next morning he would not let us pay anything. The dear old ladies there were very excited to see us. We then took the train to Plymouth. Got fed up with the slow start/stop journey so got off at a place called Bittaford near Plymouth and rode the bike the rest of the way and across the river to Saltash on the vehicle ferry. Because there were railings and a swing gate at Bittaford we had to manoeuvre the bike over them to the road. I had not told my parents that I had started flying on ops, and on one visit Tommy said "Isn't it time you told them?" We were at the "Notter Bridge" pub at the time. Father was very proud and after that when I was on leave in the shop he would say "This is my son who is . . . . . . . . . . ."
Now. A note from Nancy 2005
Herb is now 81 years old, (going on 65) still energetic with a vivid and accurate memory and I have been recording it all on the computer. Still adding to it. What started off as little memory joggers has grown into a full story. These are not the ramblings of an old man!!!!! All his life he has remembered his experiences of those RAF days as vividly as though they were yesterday. His interest in planes and ships and that training has stayed with him and his observations are as acute as ever. Over the years he has often been asked to give talks and his Rear Gunner reminiscences are always popular. Especially one entitled "When Port Was Starboard". He has only recently told me he still repeats his little mental flying rituals whenever he takes to the air --- on holiday or any flight. Amongst his photographs and memorabilia is his lucky Piskie charm.
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In 2009 during an interview he was asked what he thought about when on operations --- mother & sister perhaps? He replied once airborne all his thoughts were directed to being alert and scanning the sky and doing his job. But afterwards he told me that yes, he and Tommy had thought of their mothers and how devasted they would have been if anything had happened to them.
Heard that crews were very happy when they saw Lincoln Cathedral in sight on approaching base. How did I feel? "Well I never saw it because I was in the rear facing backwards."
Very relieved when the rear wheel touched down.
Between 1st day or [sic] war September 1939 and May 1945
Of every 100 Aircrew
Killed 51 51%
Crashes in England 9 )
Seriously injured 3 )
Prisoners of war 12 ) 25%
Evaded capture 1 )
Survived unharmed 24 24%
Of that 24% none were actually unscathed. All have stories of near-misses, lucky escapes etc. etc.
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55,000 Bomber Command aircrew lost their lives out of a total of 110,000. Rate of loss never before borne by a Military Force of comparable size in the history of the world.
Entitled to Defence Medal (ARP Messenger 1940-1941), & Part-time National Fire Service. 1942-1943 (No. Had to be in for 3 years)
39/45 Star
France and Germany Medal
Victory Medal (War Medal)
Apparently not eligible for Aircrew Europe Medal because I did not fly on operations prior to D-Day (6th June 1944), but I was on Squadron 5th June 1944 and detailed to act as Rear gunner because of illness of another crew member. Unfortunately he heard there was something momentous going to happen that night and pronounced himself fit so I did not fly. But in Feb & March our crew had flown 3 "operations as detailed" over Europe which didn't count. (See logbook)
Harris asked Churchill for a Bomber Command Campaign Medal, but Churchill refused. Montgomery & Tedder etc were all given Earldoms. They only made Harris a Knight. A lot of Bomber Command Aircrew took it as a personal insult but apparently it was his wish that he be given no higher award unless his Bomber crews were given recognition.
I was not alone by any means in refusing to apply for my campaign medals. They knew where we were when they needed us, but if we wanted our medals we had to apply for them.
We supported Harris.
After the War Churchill omitted to include and thank Bomber Command for their involvement.
[page break]
July 18th 2012 We went to London to see the new Bomber Command Memorial.
2013 Bomber Command "veterans" were awarded a "clasp". He was not going to apply for it.
During and after the War new regulations. Medals were presented to serving crew but if they had already left the service they had to apply for them. Was that in 1948 or before? We now know they had to ask for a buff postcard at the Post Office in order to apply.
July 2013 Applied for all medals
Applied for Membership of Bomber Command
August 2013 Nancy trying to find proof he was in the Fire Service
Memories of being in the National Fire Service, Saltash 1942 (previously Auxiliary Fire Service)
Must have had a number. Cannot remember having a photo taken.
Had to give up uniform (overalls) but kept the axe. Is it in this house somewhere?
David Coles, George Rees, Douglas Vosper, Colin Squires father.
The London Fire Brigade were given a rest from the London Blitz by being sent to the country i.e. Saltash. One called himself Flicker because his name was really Fricker.
One was an architect from Maida Vale.
From David Coles -- Two were husband & wife, there is a photo at Heritage. Sidney and Hilda Basset.
There appear to be no records or photos of NFS 1942, presumably because none were taken or had been destroyed during destruction.
2nd Sept 2013
Andrew found the axe in the roof along with some flying "souvenirs".
Axe No. 553 758 (or it could be 555 758).
[page break]
Leggings part of rear runner flying boots with inner little pocket (no knife).
Floating tablet for dying the water yellow/orange to be trailed from a dinghy in the event of being shot down over the sea.
Floating torch from the Mae-West.
Compound and cloth from service respirator to clear and coat lenses of goggles and respirators.
December 2013. Great niece Stephanie Pender asked for details as she is determined to get the Medals. She is in the British Army.
Medals received Feb 2014
War Medal 1939-1945
1939-1945 Star with Bomber Command Clasp
France and Germany Star
2014 French awarded Legion d'Honneur to all surviving veterans who helped liberate France
1944/45. 2015 Nancy applied.
September 2016
Legion d'Honneur arrived
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
General Memories
Description
An account of the resource
Herbert's service life in an autobiography.
He describes training in London, Bridlington, Morpeth and Wymeswold. Later training as a crew was at Castle Donington, Lindholme and Hemswell. He describes in detail his crew, aircraft and operations. After the war he returned to his job in Cornwall and made contact with some of his old crew. His wife concludes his story, writing in 2005.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Herbert Davy
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2005
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
15 typewritten sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BDavyHDavyHv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Alnwick
England--Sheffield
England--Mablethorpe
England--Liskeard
England--The Lizard
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Netherlands--Walcheren
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Mannheim
Poland--Szczecin
Sweden--Malmö
England--Wragby (Lincolnshire)
England--Saltash
France--Caen
England--Lincoln
England--Newhaven
England--Leigh-on-Sea
England--Bristol
Canada
Ontario
Poland
Trinidad and Tobago--Trinidad
France
Germany
Netherlands
Sweden
Trinidad and Tobago
England--Essex
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Northumberland
England--Yorkshire
France--Pauillac (Gironde)
England--Preston (Lancashire)
England--Bristol
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
12 Squadron
626 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crewing up
escaping
flight engineer
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Martinet
Me 262
military ethos
navigator
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Brackla
RAF Bridlington
RAF Castle Donington
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kirkham
RAF Lindholme
RAF Morpeth
RAF Tilstock
RAF Wickenby
RAF Woodbridge
RAF Wymeswold
searchlight
superstition
target indicator
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1963/41315/BLazenbyHJLazenbyHJv1.2.pdf
35022f62bb4527b9a7da34bd424ec42f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lazenby, Harold Jack
H J Lazenby
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lazenby, HJ
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. The collection concerns Warrant Officer Harold Jack Lazenby DFC (b. 1917, 652033 Royal Air Force) and contains his memoir, documents and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 57, 97 and 7 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Daniel, H Jack Lazenby and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
H Jack Lazenby DFC
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Jack Lazenby's autobiography.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Warrington
England--Wolverhampton
England--Shifnal (Shropshire)
England--London
England--Bampton (Oxfordshire)
England--Witney
England--Oxford
England--Cambridge
France--Paris
England--Portsmouth
England--Oxfordshire
England--Southrop (Oxfordshire)
England--Cirencester
England--Skegness
England--Worcestershire
England--Birmingham
England--Kidderminster
England--Gosport
England--Fareham
England--Southsea
Wales--Margam
Wales--Port Talbot
Wales--Bridgend
Wales--Porthcawl
England--Urmston
England--Stockport
Wales--Cardiff
Wales--Barry
United States
New York (State)--Long Island
Illinois--Chicago
England--Gloucester
Scotland--Kilmarnock
England--Surrey
England--Liverpool
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lincoln
Denmark--Anholt
Poland--Gdańsk
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Kiel
Europe--Mont Blanc
Denmark
England--Hull
Czech Republic--Plzeň
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Mablethorpe
Germany--Cologne
Italy--Turin
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
England--Land's End Peninsula
Italy--San Polo d'Enza
Italy--Genoa
Italy--Milan
Algeria
Algeria--Blida
Algeria--Atlas de Blida Mountains
England--Cambridge
England--Surrey
England--Ramsey (Cambridgeshire)
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Munich
France--Montluçon
Germany--Darmstadt
Scotland--Elgin
England--York
Scotland--Aberdeen
England--Grimsby
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Zeitz
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Heide (Schleswig-Holstein)
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Netherlands--Westerschelde
Germany--Rheine
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Bremen
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Belgium
England--Southend-on-Sea
England--Morecambe
England--Kineton
England--Worcester
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
England--London
Italy--La Spezia
France--Dunkerque
Poland--Szczecin
Poland
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Recklinghausen (Münster)
Netherlands
England--Sheringham
England--Redbridge
France--Saint-Nazaire
Atlantic Ocean--Kattegat (Baltic Sea)
Germany
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
United States Army Air Force
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
99 printed sheets
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BLazenbyHJLazenbyHJv1
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lazenby, Harold Jack
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
1654 HCU
20 OTU
207 Squadron
4 Group
5 Group
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
7 Squadron
97 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-17
B-24
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
briefing
Catalina
Chamberlain, Neville (1869-1940)
crewing up
debriefing
demobilisation
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
Distinguished Service Order
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
entertainment
flight engineer
flight mechanic
Flying Training School
George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Hampden
hangar
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hudson
Hurricane
Ju 88
killed in action
Lancaster
love and romance
Manchester
Master Bomber
Me 110
Me 262
mechanics engine
mess
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Nissen hut
Oboe
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
radar
RAF Barkstone Heath
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Benson
RAF Bourn
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Colerne
RAF Cosford
RAF Cranwell
RAF Dunkeswell
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Elvington
RAF Fairford
RAF Halton
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melton Mowbray
RAF Mepal
RAF Oakington
RAF Padgate
RAF Pershore
RAF Scampton
RAF Silverstone
RAF St Athan
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Swinderby
RAF Talbenny
RAF Tangmere
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Upwood
RAF Uxbridge
RAF Valley
RAF Warboys
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wing
recruitment
Resistance
Spitfire
sport
Stirling
target indicator
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Victoria Cross
Wellington
Whitley
Window
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1970/33701/LWakefieldHE174040v1.1.pdf
6abf5d017113b82dd6d95a604f4f8667
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wakefield, Harold Ernest
H E Wakefield
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wakefield, HE
Description
An account of the resource
93 items. The collection concerns Harold Ernest Wakefield DFC (1923 - 1986, 1582185 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents, training publications, decorations and badges, training notebooks, correspondence, newspaper cuttings, photographs and parachute D ring.
He flew operations as a flight engineer with 51 and 617 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Jeremy Wakefield and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harrold Wakefield's navigator's, air bombers and air gunner's flying log book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LWakefieldHE174040v1
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Wakefield's RAF Navigator's, Air Bomber’s and Air Gunner's Flying Log Book, from 16th August 1943 to 16th August 1946, recording training, operations, instructional duties and Transport Command duties to India and the Far East as a flight engineer. Based at RAF Marston Moor (1652 Conversion Unit), RAF Snaith (51 Squadron), RAF North Luffenham (Heavy Glider Conversion Unit), RAF Syerston (5 Lancaster Finishing School), RAF Woodhall Spa (617 Squadron), RAF Riccall (1332 Heavy Conversion Unit), RAF Holmsley South (246 Squadron) and RAF Lyneham (511 Squadron). Aircraft in which flown: Halifax, Oxford, Whitley, Lancaster, Horsa Glider, York. Records a total of 59 operations in two tours (23 day, 36 night) including 10 returned early or did not drop bombs. Targets in France, Germany, Netherlands and Norway are: Alencon, Amiens, Arnsburg, Augsburg, Berlin, Bielfeld, Bochum, Bremen, Chateau Dun, Colline Beaumont, Dortmund Ems Canal, Dusseldorf, Essen, Farge, Fouillard, Frankfurt-Main, Hamburg, Hanover, Heligoland, Herquelingue, Ijmuiden, Kassel, Leipzig, Leverkusen, Lille, Ludwigshafen, Mannheim, Mont Fleury, Morsalines, Nienburg, Orleans, Oslo Fiord (German cruisers “Emden” and “Koln”), Politz, Poortershafen, Rotterdam, Stuttgart, Trappes and Urft Dam. His pilots on operations were Squadron Leader Johnson and Squadron Leader Calder. Also includes notes of dates of promotion and award of DFC, lists of crews and a picture of a Halifax Mk III. Some detailed notes on ops with 617 Squadron.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-22
1943-09-23
1943-09-24
1943-09-27
1943-09-28
1943-09-29
1943-10-03
1943-10-04
1943-10-05
1943-10-08
1943-10-09
1943-11-03
1943-11-18
1943-11-19
1943-11-22
1943-11-23
1943-11-25
1943-11-26
1943-12-03
1943-12-04
1943-12-29
1943-12-30
1944-01-28
1944-01-29
1944-01-30
1944-01-31
1944-02-19
1944-02-20
1944-02-21
1944-02-25
1944-02-26
1944-03-01
1944-03-02
1944-03-06
1944-03-15
1944-03-16
1944-03-18
1944-03-19
1944-03-26
1944-03-27
1944-04-09
1944-05-10
1944-05-11
1944-05-12
1944-05-22
1944-05-23
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
1944-06-07
1944-06-08
1944-06-09
1944-06-12
1944-06-13
1944-06-15
1944-06-16
1944-12-08
1944-12-11
1944-12-15
1944-12-15
1944-12-21
1944-12-29
1944-12-30
1944-12-31
1945-01-01
1945-02-03
1945-02-06
1945-02-08
1945-02-14
1945-02-22
1945-02-24
1945-03-13
1945-03-14
1945-03-15
1945-03-19
1945-03-21
1945-03-22
1945-03-23
1945-03-27
1945-04-06
1945-04-07
1945-04-09
1945-04-19
1946
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
France
Germany
Great Britain
India
Middle East
Netherlands
Norway
England--Hampshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Rutland
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
France--Alençon
France--Amiens
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
France--Brittany
France--Châteaudun
France--Lille
France--Normandy
France--Orléans
France--Pas-de-Calais
France--Yvelines
Germany--Augsburg
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bielefeld
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Leverkusen
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Nienburg (Lower Saxony)
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Urft Dam
Netherlands--Hoek van Holland
Netherlands--Ijmuiden
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Poland
Germany--Herne (Arnsberg)
Germany--Hannover
Atlantic Ocean--Oslofjorden
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Herquelingue
France--Morsalines
France--Ver-Sur-Mer
France--Manche
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Leitch
1652 HCU
51 Squadron
617 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
Distinguished Flying Cross
flight engineer
Grand Slam
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Horsa
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Me 262
mid-air collision
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oxford
promotion
RAF Lyneham
RAF Marston Moor
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Riccall
RAF Snaith
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
training
Whitley
York
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cothliff, Ken
Ken Cothliff
K Cothliff
Description
An account of the resource
486 items in 12 sub-collections. The collection concerns Ken Cothliff's research on 6 Group Bomber Command and contains an interview with Adolf Galland, documents and photographs. Sub-collections include information on 427 Squadron, 429 Squadrons, Gerry Philbin, Jim Moffat, Reg Lane, Robert Mitchell, Steve Puskas and logs from RAF Tholthorpe.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ken Cothliff and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cothliff, K
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Adolph Galland
Description
An account of the resource
General Adolph Galland remembers his early life and subsequent career as a Luftwaffe pilot. Recounts various episodes: flying gliders as a young boy; changes in Luftwaffe fighting tactics during the Spanish civil war; the Luftwaffe refraining from engaging Fighter Command as to bomb London; arguments he had with Herman Göring and other high-ranking officers over the conduct of war. Explains how the Allies day and night operation strategy forced the Luftwaffe to build up a night-fighter force, previously non-existing. Tells of his brothers and their military careers. Remembers his encounter with Group Captain Douglas Bader. Compares technical performance of German and British aircraft, particularly Fw 190, Me 262 and Spitfire. Discusses the downsides of the planned 162 aircraft. Remembers the struggles to turf wars to rebuild the Luftwaffe at the end of both World Wars.
This item is available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Transcription of 01:55:40 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
VGallandAJF[Date]
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Germany
France
Spain
Norway
Malta
Russia (Federation)
Germany--Hamburg
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is a transcription of a video interview taped by a third party. It is available here as derivative work under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ken Cothliff
David Tappin
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Interviewer: General Galland, on behalf of everyone at the Yorkshire Air Museum, may I thank you for granting us this interview. It is greatly appreciated.
AG: Ok. It is my pleasure.
I: I may start with the first question. Is there a military tradition in your family?
AG: Not at all. My, we came, my family came from France, we were Huguenots. And one of this Frenchmen who came over, one Galland was, was a French captain, the chivalry, it was the only [unclear] we have as military.
I: Right. When did you first fly in an airplane?
AG: Oh, I did fly my first time when I was sixteen. I flew in gliders, not very far from my home there were some, an area in which gliding course was done. And I started there in ’20, ’28, I was sixteen years old.
I: I understand you set a record in your gilder.
AG: Ja, that’s right, that’s right. A record in endurance. This area did not have very high mountains, there were only hills and I did for more than two hours, two hours twenty minutes, something like this. This was an area record.
I: Ok.
AG: With my own plane. I got a plane when I finished, [unclear]Schule, I finished
UI2: Like University.
AG: Ja.
I: When did you decide to become a professional pilot and how did you achieve this?
AG: I did it all during my schooltime. Before I left school, I decided to be a commercial pilot and I told this one Sunday, walking with my father outside and he asked me: ‘What do you want to be later on?’. And I said: ‘I want to be a commercial pilot in an airline’. ‘Ah’, he said, ‘don’t you want to study?’. I said, ‘No, I want to make my exam as a professional pilot’. And he said. ‘You can do this, but I have not learned that this is a profession. You can teach me, do you expect a regular fee or do you fly for tips?’
[UI laughs]
AG: You can see how the times have changed. Now the airlines, they don’t like this joke. But they are making a lot of money also. And it is a fine profession. Also today, I think so.
I: So you then go from the airline directly into the Luftwaffe?
AG: No. The first year, at the end of the first year we were told that this was a commercial pilot school. The students were offered to become military pilots. We were told, commercial pilot doesn’t have good aspects for the future, but we will soon have military pilots and you can decide to switch over to the military career. I didn’t like this very much but there was no other questions. This was a strong invitation.
I: [laughs] There must have been many applications to become a professional pilot in those days.
AG: For the commercial side or the military?
I: For the military.
AG: For the military. No, we didn’t have any military organisation at that time at all, everything was, inexistent, was private, commercially or private or it was camouflaged, military.
I: The black Luftwaffe.
AG: The black Luftwaffe did start already in these days.
I: Yes.
AG: But most of the pilots were trained in Russia as you know, Lipezk, a Russian base, we had an agreement with Russia and we trained our people there.
I: Were you there?
AG: No, I have not been there. When Göring came in power, he cancelled this agreement with Russia and he started with Italy an agreement on a similar base. So, I was in the first group which was sent to Italy to be trained there, militarywise. We did not learn too much there in Italy. This agreement was not based on a good understanding between Göring and Balbo, maybe they had language problems, so the Italians did believe we were beginners and we knew already to fly. I remember one day, a French acrobatic pilot that had set up a record [unclear] inverted, invertedly and for two hours or so and we at this time did make acrobatics also there. So I decided when I was, when it was my turn to fly, I went up and go this way, I moved around the airfield all the time invertedly. To make a joke then they sent another airplane up, dropped down [laughs].
I: [laughs] Did you break the record?
AG: No [laughs]. I didn’t have fuel for this. I flew for ten minutes or so, but I showed.
UI2: What type of aircraft were you flying at that time, sir?
AG: Italian aircraft.
UI2: Italian aircraft. Macchi and [unclear].
I: When the Luftwaffe was formed officially in 1935, what was your first unit and what aircraft did you fly?
AG: When I had finished the training, I was ordered to go to the first fighter group which was built close to Berlin, in Döbritz. This was the first group of the fighter wing Richthofen, of the new fighter wing Richthofen. So, I came to this wing as, I was lieutenant, but I was released as Leutenant and we were installed again as Kettenführer.
I: Flight Commander.
AG: Ja, something like this. But, very soon later die Tarnung, the camouflage was taken away and we were made Lieutenants again.
I: I see. You would fly the Heinkel 51?
AG: No, at this time we had the Arado 65. And then we had the Arado 68 and then came the 51.
I: Heinkel 51.
AG: The second group later was set up in Jüterbog, south of Berlin, as the second group that have the 51s already.
I: Did you have any flying accidents in the early days?
AG: [laughs] I had many accidents and many damages. Sometimes they called me the millionaire of the new Luftwaffe, it was for the value of the airplanes I had damaged or destroyed.
[All laugh]
AG: But this was overdoned a little bit. I had one terrible accident, with a Stieglitz, with a biplane by doing acrobatics. I was very good in acrobatics and I had to train for flight demonstrations, which were set up in different towns and I had to show there acrobatics in the Stieglitz. And in this case I had modified the horizontal stabilizer in order to get better flight conditions in inverted flights, but this resulted that the aircraft did have a complete [unclear] conditions in spin. And I couldn’t recover, I could not recover the plane from spin earlier enough so I hit the ground in this position about 45°, this was a terrible accident.
I: I understand that after that [unclear] you are very good at passing eyetests.
AG: [laughs], ja, it is true. In this case I had, the plane had an open cockpit and I had glasses and I destroyed one eye with a splinter from [unclear] glasses and I had a damage on the eye and this resulted in a shorter sight of this eye. And I knew I had to pass a new physical and so to be sure I learnt the numbers and the, was ist Buchstaben?
I: Letters.
AG: The letters. I learned the letters from the table and I knew them by memorising them and I passed my exam very fine. [laughs]
I: The doctors they were bewildered.
AG: Yes [laughs]
I: [laughs]. Yes Can you tell us something about the airfighting in Spain with the Condor legion and just how much influence did Mölders have on evolving tactics for the Luftwaffe?
AG: [clears throat] Mölders became my successor as squadron leader and he, my squadron was equipped with 51s and we did ground attacks. And we were very successful in, we were helping the army, the Spanish army in their advances. Mölders arranged to change the missions to real fighter missions and so his, my other squadron was equipped then with 109s and Mölders started then to find a new tactic. He really invented the open flying formation, finger-four formation and he also had set up a, set up the methods to train the pilots in this way. So we flew in a very open formation, two planes at the same altitude, about onehundred, onehundredfifty meters apart
I: Apart.
AG: From the other and we moved all the time this way in the air in a very open formation. And this had the advantage that the number two could see also, could observe the airspace. In a close formation, number two and number three are seeing nothing, nothing but the guide only. So the next two they are flying from here to there also in this open formation. And this was really invented and explored by Mölders, this is his merit, is no question. By the way, was later on also a very good formation leader. We have pilots, and another example is Hartmann, Hartmann was not a leader at all, he could only fly by his own, and many pilots, Udet was also such a pilot, couldn’t lead a formation, I was told. Mölders once told me: ‘I will tell you one thing, you can become a Richthofen, you can become a new Richthofen, I wanted to be a Boelcke’, this means he wanted to fly with his head, so he was convinced that he was taktisch. And he was [unclear].
I: Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No, I was there when these people were doing [screams] this, the Olympic heroes there but I could not, I could not be pleased by looking at the athletics. So I decided to sell my ticket, sold it. I went up to Warnemünde or in the North, on the East Sea and I did chase Swedish girls, was more pleasant.
I: We have heard of your reputation. [laughs] Is another Galland legend. Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No.
I: Would it have been a better fighter than the Messerschmitt 109?
AG: Ja, ja, it’s no question, would have been a much better fighter than the other plane but the plane was more expensive to be built. The wing profile was changing all the time. The wing of the 109 was much more, much easier to build and for much less money to build. And this was one of the reasons why it has been decided in favour of the 109. Especially the undercarriage of the 109 was very narrow and the plane did have a terrible tendency to loop, to break out in taking off and landing, specially with crosswind. The aircraft lost an unbelievable number of planes by, of 109s by accidents during the war.
I: Would the extra range of the Heinkell had been an advantage to you in the battle of Britain?
AG: Of course, it would have been, would have been an advantage, but it wouldn’t have been decisive. The outcome of the battle would have been more or less the same because the Luftwaffe was not build and was not equipped for a battle like battle of Britain, was not build for strategic airwar. The Luftwaffe was for defense, for air defense and also for helping the army.
I: Tactical support.
AG: Ja, tactical support.
I: After Dunkirk, and the fall of France, did you think that the Luftwaffe could win the battle of Britain?
AG: No, we did not believe this, we did hope it but we learned very soon that this was not possible. Lord Dowding was a very, very cleaver man in guiding his fighters the right way and he did not use the fighters so much as Göring did. He was a much better tactician than Göring. There’s no question.
I: And yet he was sacked, he was discharged shortly after the battle of Britain by the High Command.
AG: Yes. Dowding?
I: Downing.
AG: But he came back.
I: Yes. Well, he was never honoured as he should have been for his part in the battle of Britain. Because mainly of Leigh-Mallory.
AG: Ah ja. This are [unclear] conditions and we learned during the battle that Dowding was a very, very cleaver man and Göring had the intention, first to bring the English Fighter Command down and then to bomb England and bomb London by using this medium bombers we had, the Heinkel 111 mostly [unclear] we had the Junkers 88. But the [clears throat] the Stukas had to withdrawn from the battle very soon because they detect high losses, they could not be escorted [unclear]. So the next decision in favour of the Stukas was a mistake. Another mistake was the set up of the 110 formations, what we called Zerstörer, destroyer. It was supposed to be an escort fighter, but a twin-engine fighter aircraft cannot be compared with a single engine fighter. Is always less maneuvrable and has not the acceleration, he has better armament but in fact the 110 as an escort fighter had to be escorted by single engine fighters and we had to withdraw first the Stukas, Junkers 87, and then the 110 from the battle they could not stand the too high losses.
I: Did this come as a major shock to the crews of the 110s?
AG: Ja, it was a shock, but we knew that it would come. We knew this from exercises. Before the war. We could learn in this maneuvers that the Stuka and the 110 would not, would not be used for long time to [unclear] because the performance were not. Performance were compared to single engine fighters were too low.
I: Your famous comment about the, to Göring about the Spitfires, giving you a squadron of Spitfires, you feel that perhaps would not have made the difference either?
AG: Göring came during the battle of Britain with this special train in the Pas-de-Calais and he ordered Mölders and myself to come. And he blamed us for half an hour for not performing the escort. Our bombers wanted to have the fighters sitting on their wing, on their wing tips but by doing this with the 109 we could not stay, we could not fight, we needed speed and this, our speed was not higher than the bomber formation speed, with outside bomb, so the bombs were hanging there. We had to cross over the and below the formation, but was a higher speed and the bombers did not like it. And Göring blamed us, we should sit on their wing tip, we should not leave this position, we should defend the bombers, and I told him we can only defend the bombers by being aggressive, by being offensive, we have to attack the enemy fighters. And this we can only do when we have a higher speed. And Göring said: ‘Don’t talk such a bla bla, you have the best fighter of the world, the Messerschmitt 109 and everybody knows it, this world war I fighter aircraft’. And finally after half an hour he finished this blaming and he asked Mölders: ‘What can I do to improve the fighting capacity of your wing commanders at this time?’. And Mölders said he wanted to have the Messerschmitt 109 with the more powerfull Daimler-Benz 605 M engines, that was an engine with a higher capation [unclear] and this octane 100 fuel. And Göring said to his aide: ‘Take a note, Mölders will get the first engines’. And then he said: ‘What can I do for your wing?’. And I said: ‘Please Reichsmarschall equip my wings with Spitfires’. [laughs] I do not know, what gave me the courage. [all laugh] Göring was standing there, he was unable to say anything. He looked at me, he turned around and [unclear], trying to restrain.
I: That is legend, sir, it is legend now.
AG: But, I never did get the Spitfire. Mölders did get the engines, but I never got. But I was not punished, [unclear], I was not punished, I expected.
I: You were respected for us. In your opinion, if Leigh-Mallory had controlled 11 Group with his big wing tactics and Keith Park had controlled 12 Group in the battle of Britain, the two group commanders, do you think the outcome would have been the same?
AG: Ja, this is, as I said, true English question. I know this and I believe it would have been good to have a bigger formation than only one wing, only one squadron. But not the only group in one wing. So wings with forty, more or less, forty aircraft or twenty to forty, that would be the best in my opinion.
I: Why were Messerschitt 109s not fitted with dropable fuel tanks during the battle of Britain?
AG: That was a real mistake, absolutely was forgotten or they were not available, we have used in Spain already as I told you, but for the 109 we did not, we did not [unclear]
I: And yet it would have helped your range.
AG: It would have helped but we would have, had to drop the tanks already when we came over England.
I: Yes.
AG: Because the dogfight, fighter against fighter, with drop tanks ist not very [unclear]. So later on when we got them, Göring extended an order not to drop the tanks, only when we were attacked.
I: One of the major factors was that the Luftwaffe didn’t concentrate its attack on the communications network and particularly the radar stations. Why was that so?
AG: A mistake.
I: Again a mistake.
AG: Absolutely a big mistake.
I: You knew about them.
AG: Ja, we knew of them, we had photos and it was a mistake. It was a mistake to finish the attack against Fighter Command was a mistake also, we should have continued. Ensure the british fighters did not come up when we came only by fighter. We had to use some bombers to go with us, to drop some bombs, to force the british fighters to come up. But to switch over from the battle against Fighter Command to the attacks on London was a terrible mistake.
I: How would you compare the Messerschmitt 109e with the Mark I Spitfire and Hurricane? I believe yours actually had Mickey Mouse on its, why did you have Mickey Mouse as your logo?
AG: When I was in Spain, Mickey Mouse had just come up everywhere and one of the pilots already in operations had the Mickey Mouse. And I did like this, I said, I will take the Mickey Mouse also, modified it a little bit and then I was told I should not use the Mickey Mouse because it was an American.
I: Yes, quite.
AG: Toy and this did make me decide to have it at all, to keep it and I kept it all the time.
I: Yes, indeed.
AG: I still today in my car [laughs].
I: And how do you think the 109 compared to the Spitfire then? The 109e?
AG: The e was not the best, the g was later better, g4. The Messerschmitt was, besides bad conditions in taking off and landing, based on this narrow undercarriage. The Me 109 had only one advantage, that was the fuel injection of the engine. We could easily use, manoeuvre was negative g, [unclear]
I: Yes.
AG: And the engine would drive perfectly, would not stop. We knew it was the carburator immediately when you get negative g and it stops. So, we could, when we were fired, we dropped only the nose down, and always more down and we could escape. This was a advantage. In other flying conditions both types, the Spitfire and the 109 were more or less equal. Acceleration. Manouvreability was better in the Spitfire, the Spitfire had a lower wingload, had a lower wingload and was better in manoeuvre, but acceleration were more or less the same.
I: Yes. I understand, Sir, that you had three brothers who were also fighter pilots with the Luftwaffe. Did they see service throughout the war with you?
AG: Ja, Ja. First came my younger brother to my wing. He started as a anti-aircraft and he was unhappy there, I took him out and he got a special training and then he came to my wing. And he became very soon a very capable, very good fighter pilot, very good. He had in his time 57 victories between b7, four-engine B-17s, was a high number. And he got the Ritterkreuz, this decoration we had. And my younger brother, the youngest brother, he had some difficulties, he came also from the anti-aircraft and had also a special training. I took him in my wing and in the beginning he had very high difficulties and he asked me to help him. So, I went with him to his 109 and he was sitting in the aircraft, immediately I saw he was sitting in the wrong way in the cockpit. When you had not the right position, then, the, what is when you are shooting?
I: Gunsight.
AG: Gunsight. Gunsight. He was sitting wrong behind the gunsight and this resulted in a mistake of his balance, of his shooting.
I: Yes.
AG: So, I corrected this [unclear] he got in the aircraft and from one day to the other he shot up.
I: Really?
AG: He was so happy. I also. He was a very young fellow, he died with twentythree years, he had 17 victories. And the elder one, he was, was a bad fighter. He was really a bad fighter, he wasn’t able to do anything, he was hopeless, so I managed to get him to the air reconnaissance 109. He flew there but he was not successful [unclear].
I: Did the two other brothers today survive the war with you?
AG: Only the elder, only the elder one but in the mean time he died also. Ten years ago.
I: Alright. I understand that at one time your crew chief was actually given a rocket for saving your life. What’s the story behind that?
AG: He one time did install an additional
I: Armour plate
AG: Plate,
I: Armour?
AG: Armour, armour plate behind me. And this armour blade went over my head and he didn’t tell me when I crossed the cockpit and were taking off, I shut the roof and I hit my head terribly and I blamed him: ‘You did not tell me you installed this’. ‘Wait, when I’m back I will tell you something’. And during this mission, I was shot down and I got an impact on this plate, exactly on this plate. [everybody laughs] So I didn’t blame him, I gave him zweihundert Marks and a special leave.
I: Yes. There is one well-known photograph of your Messerschmitt with a modification of a gunsight. It’s a well-known photograph.
AG: Was a mistake.
I: Was it?
AG: Was absolute a mistake. I thought I could use it for shooting on a longer distance but I learned immediately it is good for nothing, it wasn’t even good to identify the planes. When you have a plane in front, sometimes it is difficult to decide is it 109, or is it Spitfire. So, I thought when I looked through this, I can make it out [unclear] you cannot get it concentrated in anything so I decided to get [unclear]. But this aircraft, many times it has been photographed and many times on many photos it appears with the gunsight. We had not, we had a simple gunsight I have to [unclear] this was a fixed gunsight but what we had needed was a gunsight which was directed by
I: Gyro,
AG: BY gyro,
I: By gyroscope.
AG: By gyro. This we have needed terribly. We got it finally late in ’44 but it didn’t work properly. So this was an advantage on the british you had this gyroscopic gunsight, which made shooting in terms much easier.
I: Without Operation Barbarossa, the attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, would the American 8th Air Force and Bomber Command, in your opinion, have been able to sustain the bomber offensive?
AG: No, no. We were already so much beaten at this time, we would have more fighters available for the air defense and the losses would have been higher on the other side but we could, would not have been able to stop the air offensive. The western allies, the English, the British, they did a very clever thing, to split up the air offensive in day and night offensive and the british concentrated completely on the night. This was very clever, very clever. So, we had to build up a nightfighter airforce, nightfighter force, which did not exist at the beginning of the war. Göring said: ‘Nightfighters? We don’t need them. It will never be a night bombing’. So, when he made the decision, it was a decision, it was [unclear] this. He did not accept anything what was critical or negative of the airforce, everything was first class what he did.
I: Were you ever in charge of the night fighters?
AG: Ja, I was in charge and this after the catastrophe of Hamburg. In this case, Kammhuber, general Kammhuber was responsible for the night fighters and he was a very stupid man, he didn’t fly himself and he gave orders which the night fighters didn’t accept anymore. He was using one night fighter against the incoming bombers and he could only guide one fighter. And at this time, when the Bomber Command switched over to the bomber stream, all the night fighters wanted to follow the stream, they could see it by night, depending from the visibility but with lighting from the ground and with the fire over the towns, our night fighters could see the bomber stream and by the bombers they shoot their fire, they could follow this stream but Kammhuber did not allow our night fighters to go with the stream, to follow. So, they came, the night fighters came to me and they said: ‘You must help us. Our commander, Kammhuber, he bind us on one radar, in the range of one radar, in a circle of 120 km, he bind us and we want to follow’. We used Window the first time in Hamburg and this did lead to a complete catastrophe of Kammhuber’s tactic. So I had to tell this Göring and Kammhuber was released of the [unclear] and he went over to fleet commander, airfleet commander North, 5th airfleet.
I: In Norway.
AG: Norway. And he blamed this on me, Kammhuber, they said. He didn’t say to me but he was convinced I had originated this trouble. And I had, so we had not a very good relationship [unclear]. And after the war Blank was the first man who did set up the beginning of the air force and Blank wanted to have me as the first commander of the air force. And he invited me to come and talk to me and he said: ‘I did not want to have high ranking officers of World War I in the new air force, they are too old. So, everybody has voted for you, you should be the first commander of the air force, when you accept it’. And I said: ‘I am coming from Argentina, I have no idea what is going on here, I must be, first get a complete information what is done, what is planned and so on’. And then finally this was done and I decided to go up to do it, that [unclear] did say this to Blank. Then came a stop on the rebuilding of our new air force because the French blocked, they blocked this, was the European Defense Committee, Community and [unclear] came up this time. And the French did stop the European Defense Committee. So, and this was one time delayed and then this time Kammhuber came as the first commander of the air force because Blank did change against Strauss, Strauss being Bavarian he brought Kammhuber with him, who was also Bavarian and he was [unclear] over. Kammhuber did build up the air force. Was a nice story. When Kammhuber was in charge of the night fighters, I had to see him in order to use his night organisation also during daytime. Kammhuber did denie this completely, he said: ‘No, I have set up for the night fighters and you are day fighter, and they will set up your organisation, radar and everything’. And I said: ‘No, that is not true, we are not so rich that we can do this. This is a hotel with a hotel organisation, we have a night porter and a day porter, you are the night porter, I am the day porter’. We blamed for hours, we could not convince, and then he said: ‘ [unclear] I will show a complete new radar installation I have just set up’. And we went in his car, a big Mercedes, open Mercedes, his big flag as commanding general on front and there was a soldier of the infantry [unclear] He blocked us and said: ‘Your passport’. Kammhuber said: ‘Don’t you know me?’ ‘No. Passport’. [unclear] said: ‘Do you know this flag? I am your commanding officer’. He said: ‘This can be said by everybody. Passport.’ Kammhuber made a head like this and finally he said: ‘Do you know him?’. He looked at me and said: ‘Ah, I believe I have seen him on a [unclear], on a newspaper, in front of a newspaper, a big photo. I think that this is Major Mölders, then you can go’. [unclear] He was [unclear] also, Major Mölders.
I: I’ve been asked by some of the veterans who flew from the Yorkshire fields, where we are from, from 5 Group and 6 Group veterans, what were your feelings towards the night bomber crews, when you were general of night fighters?
AG: I didn’t understand too much about night fighting, I must say this, I’m a complete day fighter, and [coughs] we had a saying as dayfighters: the night is not good for fighter pilots, the night is good for bitches, but not for fighters. But really this was a good organisation and also the guiding systems we had in the night fighters they were very fine, very very fine. And the night fighters did have a better fighter, leading fighter, guiding organisation than any fighters had but they did not need it.
I: This was Wild Boar and Tame Boar.
AG: Ja.
I: After the raid on Schweinfurt-Regensburg, did you think the 8th Air Force could be stopped by the Luftwaffe?
AG: No, I did not believe this, there were too many mistakes done and too many things were not performed. When Hamburg occurred, everybody, Göring did call a big meeting and all important men were present at this meeting. There was a unique opinion, we have now to change the priority and we have to give the air defense first priority. And we have to stop everything else but we have to concentrate all our power on air defense. Göring was convinced and he decided to bring this up to Hitler immediately. This meeting was in Hitler’s headquarters, Wolfsschanze in East Prussia. So Göring went to Hitler. He came back after one hour, he was completely destroyed, he broke down in his quarter and finally he ordered [unclear] and myself to come and he said: ‘Hitler has not accepted our plan. Hitler has decided to build up a new attack air force, a new bomber air force to bomb England. Bombing can only be stopped by bombing, not by air defense’. And he had explained this to me and Hitler has right. He fall down completely, he is right as he is always right. The way through air defense is too far away and we were stopped, we were blocked from continue bombing aim. So Peltz, general Peltz, a young fellow was made the attack guidance, the attack commander in England. This was immediately after Hamburg.
I: 1943.
AG: Ja. Unbelievable, unbelievable.
I: Was this the beginning of what they call the Bedeker Raids?
AG: Ja.
I: Where they used the Bedeker Atlas to bomb.
AG: Ja.
I: May I ask you general?
AG: Göring was not stupid, he was a clever man. He knew this was wrong, but he has never resisted Hitler. When Hitler gave an order, he immediately was of the same opinion, because Göring was not a man for combat, was not a man for fight, was not a man for war. Göring wanted to continue his life as the most richest man in Europe, he wanted to be brilliant and he didn’t like the war at all.
I: Without a western front to defend, could Operation Barbarossa have succeded?
AG: Could?
I: If Germany had not been fighting on two fronts, could you have succeeded with the attack on the Soviet Union?
AG: With the attack on the Soviet Union. It is difficult to decide but we were close to win the battle, but we have been blocked again by beginning the offensive against Russia by the Italians. When you have the Italians as your allies, you have 50% of the war already lost, you we can be sure. [UI and UI2 laugh] Really. The Italians have started the war in Africa, so this did force us to go to Africa. Then, Germany wanted to take over Malta. Mussolini said: ‘No, Malta, we will take over. You can take Greece’. And we took Greece with much losses and it was not good for nothing, I know. And the Russian campaign has been delayed by the Italians again, this time by the war in the Balcans, by attacking Albania. And we had to go to the Balcans. This [unclear] a delay of half a year. Again our allies deterred us. So I still am going to say, if we could have won the war, I think we could have broken the power of Russia, we could have. We were close to Moskow and if we would have started half a year earlier, everything would have been much more in favour.
I: A huge country of course.
AG: Ja.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst
AG: I knew the war was lost, was probably or was not to be won, there is a difference, already in 19, in the second war Russian campaign, this was
I: 1942. 1942.
AG: 1942. In this year I remember conversations I had with the chief of staff of the Air force, Jeschonnek, who told me: ‘You can believe me the war cannot be won anymore’. I said: ‘I agree competely’. But we were not allowed to talk about this, to tell this anybody. And we, ourselves, we fighters, young people, we knew the war could not be won anymore but we hoped, did heartly hope, that the war could be brought to an better end. This means, the unconditional surrender condition, this was something we are fighting against up to the last man.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst Udet. When did you realise that he had committed suicide and what are your memories of Udet?
AG: When we at the funeral of Udet, we were told by Göring, Göring could difficultly close his mouth if he wanted to talk. So, he did tell us what has happened and some weeks, three weeks before, I was with Udet one night in the special train of Göring in East Prussia. And Udet was completely broken, completely broken, he was blamed to be responsible for the armament which were not going up and [unclear] and this was true. Udet was responsible for the development, for test, and for armament, for building, for the industry, and this he could not do, he was not able to do this at all, he could not organise the industry and he did not have the help to do this correctly. And therefore, he missed completely, lost completely this order to build up the industry. But this was not the responsibility of Udet, this was the responsibility of Göring to make him responsible for this. There were other people, Milch is an example, was absolutely more capable to do this and the production went up when Milch took over the post of Udet. So, is this the answer?
I: What are your memories of him as a person?
AG: Oh, he was a wonderful man. He was a wonderful, charming man, he was an artist. He was joking, he was very much liked by everybody. He was a great flier, pilot and you could have a lot of joke with him. And we did have.
UI. Yes.
AG: He did like the whiskeys.
I: And the ladies?
AG: Also.
I: [laughs] I understand that Douglas Bader was a guest of Geschwader 26 for a while.
AG: Ja. I have the date here when he was shot up, that was in 1943. There was an incoming English Royal Air Force attack, Blenheims with escort of Spitfires, and we had a big fight over the Pas de Calais. This was my wing and the wing Richthofen, but in this case only my wing 26 was involved, we did shot down I think 6 Spitfires and 2 or 3 Blenheims, I shot a Blenheim down. And I shot, I combat also with Spitfires but I think [unclear] off 3 Blenheims and 6 Spitfires downed. And in the afternoon one of my group commanders phoned me and said: ‘We have shot down one incredible man, an English wing commander, by the name Bader, he said, Bader said wanted only to be called Bader. He has two wooden legs and you must invite him to come immediately, bring him my invitation. And Bader had to bail out and he left one of his wooden legs in the Spit and the Spit landed with out him and my mechanics could repair this wooden leg a little bit. So, I was called some days later, Bader can come now and visit you. And I did send him my biggest car and a good looking, first Lieutenant. Bader came on. I had informed myself a little bit about him and it was absolutely a great impression, from the first moment, this stepped on his two wooden legs. And Bader said to me: ‘Can you send a message to our side that I am safe in your hands and I wanted to have a second set of my legs, which I have in my [unclear] and a good pipe and tobacco’. I said:’ Yes, I will try it’. So, then I phoned Göring in the evening and said: ‘We have Wing Commander Bader here, a man with two wooden legs, unbelievable man, sympathic and [unclear] the rules [unclear] immediately’. And I said: ‘We wanted, or he, he wanted that we communicate to the other side, to the English side, he is in our hands and he wants to have a spare legs’. And Göring said: ‘You can do this, we have done this in world war one, many times, you can do this, I like this, I like this’, the meaning was [unclear]. So, we put it on the way of the international sea rescue. It was confirmed from the other side, I communicate this to Göring and he said: ‘How do you want to do this?’ I said: ‘We are waiting now that the English [unclear] and then we make a proposal, we make an open space with an airfield and we guarantee a safe landing and coming to our side and of course we will make some photos’. [laughs]
I: Doctor Goebbels [laughs]
AG: This, our message was confirmed through the other side and nothing happened two, three days and then came in the same way, in the same way, the same frequency, a message: in this present attack we are doing, we drop not only bombs, we drop also a case with the spare legs from Bader. They dropped our airfield [unclear], no, not [unclear], Saint-Omer, dropped a case with a parachute, I have photos of this, there were the spare legs, that was not very nice, we were disappointed. So Bader many time has visited me, for tea and then I showed him the aircraft from my wing and showed especially mine, my 109 and he wanted to step out, he mounted the cockpit immediately with his wooden legs, this is unbelievable. And as he was sitting in the aircraft, Heidi, you must being the photos, and he said, I showed him everything, explained [unclear] please can you start the engine [all laugh] all around the place, only around the place. I said, no wing commander, let’s stop this nonsense because I have two 109s for my own personal use and if you take off I would have to follow you. And I would have to shot at you again and I do not want to do this. He was laughing. Of course he has never expected that we would start it. Then he was brought back to the hospital and he made an escape from the hospital, on the sheets from the prisoners, he did borrow the sheets and came down from the second floor to the ground and the last sheet did broke and he did fall down and he hurt one leg again and he had to go the hospital. So, he was immediately captured again. When I heard this, that he had escaped again, I was [unclear] because I had shown him to much [unclear]. I would have had [unclear] perhaps but he came back and he did make another escape. This man was unbelievable.
I: On that engagement when Bader was shot down by your Geschwader, there was another pilot and our research indicates that you shot him down and he lives in Sheffield, which is quite near to the Yorkshire museum. He is still alive today and he sends his best wishes to you.
AG: Oh, thank you. That was on this occasion?
I: Yes. Buck Kassen was his name and he was shot down and made prisoner of war the same time as Douglas Bader. And we interview him as part of this tape.
AG: What is the name of this Spitfire pilot shot down in?
I: [unclear]
AG: My victory 56. He calls himself your victory 56.
I: [unclear]
FS: I’ll take some.
I: May I ask you why did most of the Luftwaffe’s very high scoring aces, such as Hartmann, Barckhorn, Rall, why did they fly the Messerschmitt 109 rather than the Focke Wulff 190?
AG: In the beginning, the 190 was not available, the 190 was only available for wings from April ‘43, so up to this date they could only use the 109. The 190 came later, it was not, was not ready for being used by the operational units.
I: But even later, even later many of the aces still preferred the 109.
AG: Maybe. I personally flew the 190 the last months of the war and my latest was the 262 of course.
I: Yes.
AG: But the 190 was much better for attacks on bombers. The 109 was absolutely better for fighting fights against fighters. Danke. The 190 had a lot of protection against the bomber fighter, the Spit [unclear] engine gave you a feeling of safety.
I: Why did the death of one man, general Wever, bring about the scrapping of the german strategic bomber program and what were Göring’s and Jeschonnek’s views after the battle of Britain?
AG: Wever was an army general but as an army general he had a great understanding for air war and Wever was also a follower of Douhet, this Italian general, the inventor of the strategic air war. And Wever did promote the four-engine big bomber, he did promote this. Unfortunately, he killed himself in a flying accident. He started a Heinkel 70 with the rollers blocked in Dresden, came down immediately. If he would have lived perhaps we would have had a four bomber air force also. I believe this. But then Udet went to the States and he was convinced by the American navy air force, which were, they were using these dive bombers, and Udet was convinced by them that was the way for people which have not big reserves on raw material, like Germany, to get the same result by picking up pinpoint targets. And really Udet did influence the air force, the top air force men, including Göring, that this was the way for Germany to have the Stukas instead of the four-engine bomber. [unclear] we can get the same result if we had the power station of a big plant or we destroyed your plant. This is the same result. So, at this time, an order was given that all the German aircraft, even the twin-engine Junkers 88, could have been used, should have been used in dive attacks. Also the Heinkel 177, which was the German four-engine bomber, in which two engines were blocked, bound together, they should also go in dive-bombing, which was a mistake, of course.
I: When you were promoted to general in charge of fighters, sir, how old were you? You were a very young man, I believe. And how do you feel about succeeding Mölders?
AG: 29, 29 years and I was practically the immediate successor of Mölders.
I: How did you feel about that, sir?
AG: I was not happy, I was absolutely unhappy in these days because I wanted to continue as wing commander. I was very unhappy in this position. I wanted to fight, only to fly. I already upset with, myself with Göring when I was made wing commander, because I did believe I so much paperwork to do that I could not fly anymore. My intention was to fight.
I: Hitler awarded you the Germany’s highest award for bravery, the diamonds to your knight’s cross following your 94th victory. But I understand there was more to it than just the diamonds. You had quite a collection of diamonds in the end.
AG: Ja. The first diamond I got was the Spanish cross with diamonds. That was a german award very nice with diamonds in the middle. This was awarded, I think, nine times.
I: [unclear]
AG: And next I got the diamonds to the oak leaves to the knight’s cross. And when I got this, Göring did had not seen it before and I was sitting in Göring’s train [unclear] and Göring looked at me and said: ‘Are these the diamonds the Führer gave you as highest german award?’. I said ja. ‘It cannot be’, he said, ‘take it off’. I took it off and gave them to him [unclear]. ‘Terrible, terrible, The Führer knows everything, knows every carrier of the [unclear], of the german army, the german, he knows the complete trajectory, every gun, but diamonds, he has no idea, not enough. I tell you, these are splinters. Little splinters, these are not diamonds. Give it to me, I will, I have a jewelier in Berlin, who will make you another set. You will see what diamonds are looking like’. So I took it off and gave it to him. Some weeks later, I was ordered to come to his house in Carinhall. ‘Galland, look at here, this are the splinters of Hitler, these are the diamonds of Göring, who knows about diamonds?’. So, he gave me both sets back, I had now twice. Then, he must have told this to Hitler because some weeks later I was asked to see Hitler and Hitler said: ‘My dear Galland, finally I’m in a position to award you with the final edition of [unclear] decoration. Look at this’. He gave me this case. ‘Take a look, [unclear]’. I did not know for what is this order to come, I had the diamonds from Göring, the big ones. And he said: ‘Can you see the difference? These are splinters’. ‘This is obsolete’. ‘No, you can wear this every day. They are expensive, the big ones here. When you are flying daily, take the other ones. The splinters’. I was about to explode. He gave me both sets back, I did three times now. And then came a time, I was so upset with Göring, I had so big fights with him. And he had in one big meeting in Munich Schleissheim, there were about forty officers in this meeting and he blamed the fighters in a terrible way. He said we were not anymore brave, we were scapegoats and good for nothing, we were decorated highly at the beginning of the war and we did not pay for it. And most of the pilots had with lies made their high decorations over England. When he said this, I took my decoration off, I was sitting opposite to him and hit it on the table. Göring finished this meeting and he tried to calm me down, but I said: ‘No, you should refuse this [unclear]’. I said: ‘Göring, I cannot do it, I cannot do it, [unclear] I cannot take my decoration on anymore’. And I did hang this number three [unclear] in my office in Berlin and this Olympic game installation and hang it on the neck of the wooden [unclear]and It was hanging there, I didn’t take my decoration for, I think, five months. And then Hitler one day saw a photo of mine on a newspaper, Berliner Illustrierte, and said:’Why is Galland not showing his decoration?’. And Hitler was told the Royal Air Force was bombing Berlin. And Hitler said: ‘You should [unclear] immediately and get a new [unclear]. I had to see Hitler without. And Hitler said finally: ‘Bad luck, but you have a new set’. But this is was number four. [laughs] And by the end of this war I was wearing this number four and I took this as prisoner of war with me, until we were asked to take it away. But I could keep this with me and [unclear] till today. That is the only set. The other sets, one was burned, two sets, [unclear] was liberated at the end of the war by the americans,
I: They might be somewhere in America still, probably.
AG: I talked to one man who has one set.
I: Really? Amazing story. You were responsible for the fighter screen when the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugen made the famous Channel dash. How was this success achieved under the eyes of the RAF?
AG: I was made responsible for this fighter escort, is true and I was in a meeting with Hitler and Hitler at the end of the meeting he took me away and said: ‘Do you believe this operation can be performed?’ And I told him: ‘It is possible, but the first condition, first and most important condition is complete, this operation is completely secret. And the English should not know about the operation, should not know when is going on and so on, completely secret and Hitler said: ‘Yes, I agree 100%’. ‘But’, I said, ‘there is a lot of risk in war’. Hitler said: ‘In all my operations, the last years, the biggest risk was the [unclear], it was true, he always was playing with this risk, in an incredible [unclear]. Hitler agreed and when the operation were prepared very much in detail and seriously, very seriously. And I invented the callname, the codename for this operation.
I: Really?
AG: I invented Donnerkeil. This was not accepted by the navy. The navy called it, what was it?
I: Cerberus.
AG: Cerberus, Cerberus, they called it Cerberus. And this was good and in so far as the British secret service knew about this was [unclear], not in detail but they knew, we were preparing it. They did believe this were two different operations, they did not bring the two operations together, so this was an advantage. And then our highest chief of the communication, Martini, he did use for the first time a big system of disturbing the English radar and this disturbation gave the English the impression we were coming in with big [unclear], with big offensive formations and this did help a lot. And the weather did help a lot, it was a miserable weather and on the English side, not in France, nothing, this did help us also. So, we had finally the success based on a lot of luck, lot of luck and our fighters were brave, fighting very very brave. I remember I had my two brothers in this operation and they told me.
I: And a very british Victoria cross was ordered in that operation too. What are your memories of the ace Hans-Joachim Marseille? And how did you regard him as a fighter ace, in comparison to Hartmann?
AG: In my book, the virtuoso, [unclear] but he was a single fighter, also was not a [unclear], nobody could follow him, he did fly like Richthofen, more than Richthofen
I: As a loner, as we would say.
AG: He was not able to guide four fighters there. And he got so impacts I think in his last [unclear] and he did make a mistake by escaping from the aircraft. He didn’t make a [unclear] but he did in the beginning. And was pulling out and he hit the tail. Later, I personally did escape twice by our new method took the nose up, engine down, nose up and then we pushed the bottom very strongly unclear], the aircraft did make this motion and in this situation the pilot was ejected really, the pilot was flying up ten meters, thirty feet and this was this [unclear] method risky.
AG: Ja, we’re finished now.
I: We could move to the end of the war. So, Germany’s experience with jet fighters where of course the Messerschmitt 262 was the first operational combat jet fighter in the world. Do you feel that that aircraft, if it had been available in sufficient numbers in 1943, could have altered the bombing offensive? And what was it like to fly? What was it as an aeroplane?1
AG: I’ve known this airplane I think in June ‘43 the first time and I have made a report on this, I have a copy of this. On Saturday the 22 of May ’43. I’ve flown this aircraft in Ausgburg, taking off in Ausgburg, is a Messerschmitt plant and this a report about this first flight addressed to Feldmarschal Milch. He was responsible man for armament and for development. And I am saying, this aircraft [unclear] us complete new tactical possibilities, this is a revolution and I recommend therefore to stop the messerschnitt 262 development completely and to take this out of the plan. Concentrate only on the Focke Wulff 190 D development and all capacity and concentrate from now on to the 262. This will give us greatest chances supposed that the allies, the Americans and the English [unclear] continuing their operation on piston, only on piston driven fighter base and bombers. WE knew that they were also developing the Meteor and did not know when they were ready. But the 262 would have given us the biggest chance if we would have the time. The development of this project was stopped and delayed, later delayed by order of Hitler, because he was of the opinion that the war was shortly before to be won and developments would take more than one year to be finished, would come too late [unclear]. That was his argument. And without this [unclear] development, which was done by Messerschmitt and by Henkel, was done without being known by Hitler, was done in secret [unclear] of Hitler. Only in the last months of the war, when the aircraft was there, when the RAF made this first light tests, and this report, then he decided to use it only, only as [unclear] against the invasion. This is the aircraft, with which I will fight the forthcoming invasion, he said in my presence, this is the aircraft. I order this aircraft to not be used in any other form and should not be imagined in another operation as [unclear].
I: What was your opinion, sir, of the two other jet fighters that did see operational service or limited, the 162, the Heinkel 162 and of course the incredible Messerschmitt 163 Komet, the jet, rocket jet fighter?
AG: The 163, the rocket fighter was already under development and I knew about this and this would have been a compliment for the anti-aircraft, only for the defense of certain objects, like the derrick oil plants. I was of the opinion that this plane could be used for this object protection with a certain success. It would have been that a lower flight plane target with flight time, with power was only 6 or 8 minutes but the aircraft was then so high up that it could make one or two attacks and then go down. This was only an additional aircraft for the air defense but the 162, this was a political development. It was supposed to set the Hitler
I: Hitler Youth.
AG: Hitler Youth on these planes then only with the training of gliders, which was completely wrong, completely wrong, I was against this development because I said youngsters cannot fly this plane with success, this is absolutely impossible. Secondly, the engine BMW 003 is not so practical, [unclear] that it can be used only one engine on one aircraft, we need two engines. And certainly the 163 with this engine behind the pilots and without the exit seat, this would result, every pilot who tried to bail out would land in the engine. So, I have fought against this plane because the concept was only based on a political wrong thinking, absolutely wrong thinking. And this should have been performed and executed by a, the youngsters and responsible for this was the fieldmarshal or the general, colonel general Keller.
I: From the first world war.
AG: Ja, from the first world war. And I took Keller with me to Nowotny on the day in which there was a , was shot down, hit the ground. In order, my intention was to show him what a jet operation does mean, more complicated than this and at the end of the war, when I was leading my JW 44 in Munich Ried, two or three handful of this 162 came to me and said we want to fly with you. They didn’t have any success at all. So this was, the 162 was a complete wrong concept from the beginning. A political development.
UI. We’re getting near the end, sir, but can you very briefly tell us about JV 44? Is it correct that all the pilots have the night’s cross?
AG: No, no, this is not correct. We had several pilots with the knights cross and most their officers and at the end of the war, pilots who were in hospitals or were in, wie heisst das [unclear]? the recovery stations, they came to me and said:’We want to be, we want to fly under you’, they all said: ‘we want to fight the end of the days with you’. And I have accepted this. So, in the last week or two last weeks, I only accepted such pilots who wanted to continue to fly. Pilots who said, [unclear] for family reasons or something like this and I do not want to fly anymore, he could do this, he would not be punished at all. This were only Freiwillige, free will pilots, [unclear]
I: Volunteers.
AG: Volunteers, volunteers. And Steinhoff had this terrible accident, he was the man who was responsible for operations in my group 44, strong and he believes he had hit a [unclear]. I believe he pushed the wrong button, Steinhoff was used to take off with flaps in and only when he reached, came close to the take off speed, then he dropped the flaps, this [unclear] a little bit [unclear] the take off. But in the Messerschmitt are two buttons, one is for undercarriage, one is for flaps and they are close together, you can see on old cockpits. I think, yes, he pushed the undercarriage. Then he tried to take off, he made a jump, restored its speed, came down with too early engines about 2000 feet after he came lifted from the ground, came down, he hit the ground and burned out.
I: Did you see the crash?
AG: Ja. I was number one, he was number four in my wing. This was the last, my last mission. Finnegan believes he should, this American guy, he came, I shot down two more others in this mission and I didn’t know if the second one was already finished so I made a turn, looked at this [unclear] and [unclear] gave me some shots [unclear].
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions.
AG: Finnegan or when the Americans say, you were shot down by Finnegan, that is not true, I could manage to get home, one engine was hit, ja, that is correct but I could manage to come down and manage a perfect landing with one engine on my base on which I had taken off, is not a victory.
I: Not at all, an American-type victory.
UI2: Unconfirmed probably.
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions, if I may. You are now 82 years of age?
AG: Ja, unfortunately.
I: How do you feel about the events of 55 years ago, during the battle of Britain, when you were fighting for your life, all this time, all this long distance from battle, how do you feel?
AG: At this time when this had happened, we did never believe we would survive. Even in the last days of the war, when I flew the 262, I didn’t believe I would survive the war. I was real ready with my life, had a good life and [unclear] success, [unclear] success in my life and I always wanted to be better than others and I got the feeling to be better than others [unclear]. So, I am thankful for my life and I think it was an extraordinary class of life which I performed. And I thank God for being with you now and have survived all situations. And I have the experience of what I say. I have had so much responsibility during my military life and when I saw the terrible destructions of the allied airwar in Germany and I saw the people who did suffer in such terrible form, I had only the wish and the intention to fight up to the last minute in order to compensate, not to win the war.
I: General Adolf Galland, this has been a real pleasure, sir, we greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Marvellous sir.
I: Thank you sir. You are part of aviation history.
AG: [unclear]
I: Yes, yes, we do, we have some presentations for you.
I: On the way here, sir, I had to pinch myself to make sure that it is real, that I am meeting Adolf Galland. A small gift, sir, on behalf of the Yorshire air Museum.
AG: Thank you.
I: Our air museum plan.
AG: I’ve got quite a collection already.
Unknown interviewer: General Galland, on behalf of everyone at the Yorkshire Air Museum, may I thank you for granting us this interview. It is greatly appreciated.
AG: Ok. It is my pleasure.
I: I may start with the first question. Is there a military tradition in your family?
AG: Not at all. My, we came, my family came from France, we were Huguenots. And one of this Frenchmen who came over, one Galland was, was a French captain, the chivalry, it was the only [unclear] we have as military.
I: Right. When did you first fly in an airplane?
AG: Oh, I did fly my first time when I was sixteen. I flew in gliders, not very far from my home there were some, an area in which gliding course was done. And I started there in ’20, ’28, I was sixteen years old.
I: I understand you set a record in your gilder.
AG: Ja, that’s right, that’s right. A record in endurance. This area did not have very high mountains, there were only hills and I did for more than two hours, two hours twenty minutes, something like this. This was an area record.
I: Ok.
AG: With my own plane. I got a plane when I finished, [unclear]Schule, I finished
UI2: Like University.
AG: Ja.
I: When did you decide to become a professional pilot and how did you achieve this?
AG: I did it all during my schooltime. Before I left school, I decided to be a commercial pilot and I told this one Sunday, walking with my father outside and he asked me: ‘What do you want to be later on?’. And I said: ‘I want to be a commercial pilot in an airline’. ‘Ah’, he said, ‘don’t you want to study?’. I said, ‘No, I want to make my exam as a professional pilot’. And he said. ‘You can do this, but I have not learned that this is a profession. You can teach me, do you expect a regular fee or do you fly for tips?’
[UI laughs]
AG: You can see how the times have changed. Now the airlines, they don’t like this joke. But they are making a lot of money also. And it is a fine profession. Also today, I think so.
I: So you then go from the airline directly into the Luftwaffe?
AG: No. The first year, at the end of the first year we were told that this was a commercial pilot school. The students were offered to become military pilots. We were told, commercial pilot doesn’t have good aspects for the future, but we will soon have military pilots and you can decide to switch over to the military career. I didn’t like this very much but there was no other questions. This was a strong invitation.
I: [laughs] There must have been many applications to become a professional pilot in those days.
AG: For the commercial side or the military?
I: For the military.
AG: For the military. No, we didn’t have any military organisation at that time at all, everything was, inexistent, was private, commercially or private or it was camouflaged, military.
I: The black Luftwaffe.
AG: The black Luftwaffe did start already in these days.
I: Yes.
AG: But most of the pilots were trained in Russia as you know, Lipezk, a Russian base, we had an agreement with Russia and we trained our people there.
I: Were you there?
AG: No, I have not been there. When Göring came in power, he cancelled this agreement with Russia and he started with Italy an agreement on a similar base. So, I was in the first group which was sent to Italy to be trained there, militarywise. We did not learn too much there in Italy. This agreement was not based on a good understanding between Göring and Balbo, maybe they had language problems, so the Italians did believe we were beginners and we knew already to fly. I remember one day, a French acrobatic pilot that had set up a record [unclear] inverted, invertedly and for two hours or so and we at this time did make acrobatics also there. So I decided when I was, when it was my turn to fly, I went up and go this way, I moved around the airfield all the time invertedly. To make a joke then they sent another airplane up, dropped down [laughs].
I: [laughs] Did you break the record?
AG: No [laughs]. I didn’t have fuel for this. I flew for ten minutes or so, but I showed.
UI2: What type of aircraft were you flying at that time, sir?
AG: Italian aircraft.
UI2: Italian aircraft. Macchi and [unclear].
I: When the Luftwaffe was formed officially in 1935, what was your first unit and what aircraft did you fly?
AG: When I had finished the training, I was ordered to go to the first fighter group which was built close to Berlin, in Döbritz. This was the first group of the fighter wing Richthofen, of the new fighter wing Richthofen. So, I came to this wing as, I was lieutenant, but I was released as Leutenant and we were installed again as Kettenführer.
I: Flight Commander.
AG: Ja, something like this. But, very soon later die Tarnung, the camouflage was taken away and we were made Lieutenants again.
I: I see. You would fly the Heinkel 51?
AG: No, at this time we had the Arado 65. And then we had the Arado 68 and then came the 51.
I: Heinkel 51.
AG: The second group later was set up in Jüterbog, south of Berlin, as the second group that have the 51s already.
I: Did you have any flying accidents in the early days?
AG: [laughs] I had many accidents and many damages. Sometimes they called me the millionaire of the new Luftwaffe, it was for the value of the airplanes I had damaged or destroyed.
[All laugh]
AG: But this was overdoned a little bit. I had one terrible accident, with a Stieglitz, with a biplane by doing acrobatics. I was very good in acrobatics and I had to train for flight demonstrations, which were set up in different towns and I had to show there acrobatics in the Stieglitz. And in this case I had modified the horizontal stabilizer in order to get better flight conditions in inverted flights, but this resulted that the aircraft did have a complete [unclear] conditions in spin. And I couldn’t recover, I could not recover the plane from spin earlier enough so I hit the ground in this position about 45°, this was a terrible accident.
I: I understand that after that [unclear] you are very good at passing eyetests.
AG: [laughs], ja, it is true. In this case I had, the plane had an open cockpit and I had glasses and I destroyed one eye with a splinter from [unclear] glasses and I had a damage on the eye and this resulted in a shorter sight of this eye. And I knew I had to pass a new physical and so to be sure I learnt the numbers and the, was ist Buchstaben?
I: Letters.
AG: The letters. I learned the letters from the table and I knew them by memorising them and I passed my exam very fine. [laughs]
I: The doctors they were bewildered.
AG: Yes [laughs]
I: [laughs]. Yes Can you tell us something about the airfighting in Spain with the Condor legion and just how much influence did Mölders have on evolving tactics for the Luftwaffe?
AG: [clears throat] Mölders became my successor as squadron leader and he, my squadron was equipped with 51s and we did ground attacks. And we were very successful in, we were helping the army, the Spanish army in their advances. Mölders arranged to change the missions to real fighter missions and so his, my other squadron was equipped then with 109s and Mölders started then to find a new tactic. He really invented the open flying formation, finger-four formation and he also had set up a, set up the methods to train the pilots in this way. So we flew in a very open formation, two planes at the same altitude, about onehundred, onehundredfifty meters apart
I: Apart.
AG: From the other and we moved all the time this way in the air in a very open formation. And this had the advantage that the number two could see also, could observe the airspace. In a close formation, number two and number three are seeing nothing, nothing but the guide only. So the next two they are flying from here to there also in this open formation. And this was really invented and explored by Mölders, this is his merit, is no question. By the way, was later on also a very good formation leader. We have pilots, and another example is Hartmann, Hartmann was not a leader at all, he could only fly by his own, and many pilots, Udet was also such a pilot, couldn’t lead a formation, I was told. Mölders once told me: ‘I will tell you one thing, you can become a Richthofen, you can become a new Richthofen, I wanted to be a Boelcke’, this means he wanted to fly with his head, so he was convinced that he was taktisch. And he was [unclear].
I: Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No, I was there when these people were doing [screams] this, the Olympic heroes there but I could not, I could not be pleased by looking at the athletics. So I decided to sell my ticket, sold it. I went up to Warnemünde or in the North, on the East Sea and I did chase Swedish girls, was more pleasant.
I: We have heard of your reputation. [laughs] Is another Galland legend. Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No.
I: Would it have been a better fighter than the Messerschmitt 109?
AG: Ja, ja, it’s no question, would have been a much better fighter than the other plane but the plane was more expensive to be built. The wing profile was changing all the time. The wing of the 109 was much more, much easier to build and for much less money to build. And this was one of the reasons why it has been decided in favour of the 109. Especially the undercarriage of the 109 was very narrow and the plane did have a terrible tendency to loop, to break out in taking off and landing, specially with crosswind. The aircraft lost an unbelievable number of planes by, of 109s by accidents during the war.
I: Would the extra range of the Heinkell had been an advantage to you in the battle of Britain?
AG: Of course, it would have been, would have been an advantage, but it wouldn’t have been decisive. The outcome of the battle would have been more or less the same because the Luftwaffe was not build and was not equipped for a battle like battle of Britain, was not build for strategic airwar. The Luftwaffe was for defense, for air defense and also for helping the army.
I: Tactical support.
AG: Ja, tactical support.
I: After Dunkirk, and the fall of France, did you think that the Luftwaffe could win the battle of Britain?
AG: No, we did not believe this, we did hope it but we learned very soon that this was not possible. Lord Dowding was a very, very cleaver man in guiding his fighters the right way and he did not use the fighters so much as Göring did. He was a much better tactician than Göring. There’s no question.
I: And yet he was sacked, he was discharged shortly after the battle of Britain by the High Command.
AG: Yes. Dowding?
I: Downing.
AG: But he came back.
I: Yes. Well, he was never honoured as he should have been for his part in the battle of Britain. Because mainly of Leigh-Mallory.
AG: Ah ja. This are [unclear] conditions and we learned during the battle that Dowding was a very, very cleaver man and Göring had the intention, first to bring the English Fighter Command down and then to bomb England and bomb London by using this medium bombers we had, the Heinkel 111 mostly [unclear] we had the Junkers 88. But the [clears throat] the Stukas had to withdrawn from the battle very soon because they detect high losses, they could not be escorted [unclear]. So the next decision in favour of the Stukas was a mistake. Another mistake was the set up of the 110 formations, what we called Zerstörer, destroyer. It was supposed to be an escort fighter, but a twin-engine fighter aircraft cannot be compared with a single engine fighter. Is always less maneuvrable and has not the acceleration, he has better armament but in fact the 110 as an escort fighter had to be escorted by single engine fighters and we had to withdraw first the Stukas, Junkers 87, and then the 110 from the battle they could not stand the too high losses.
I: Did this come as a major shock to the crews of the 110s?
AG: Ja, it was a shock, but we knew that it would come. We knew this from exercises. Before the war. We could learn in this maneuvers that the Stuka and the 110 would not, would not be used for long time to [unclear] because the performance were not. Performance were compared to single engine fighters were too low.
I: Your famous comment about the, to Göring about the Spitfires, giving you a squadron of Spitfires, you feel that perhaps would not have made the difference either?
AG: Göring came during the battle of Britain with this special train in the Pas-de-Calais and he ordered Mölders and myself to come. And he blamed us for half an hour for not performing the escort. Our bombers wanted to have the fighters sitting on their wing, on their wing tips but by doing this with the 109 we could not stay, we could not fight, we needed speed and this, our speed was not higher than the bomber formation speed, with outside bomb, so the bombs were hanging there. We had to cross over the and below the formation, but was a higher speed and the bombers did not like it. And Göring blamed us, we should sit on their wing tip, we should not leave this position, we should defend the bombers, and I told him we can only defend the bombers by being aggressive, by being offensive, we have to attack the enemy fighters. And this we can only do when we have a higher speed. And Göring said: ‘Don’t talk such a bla bla, you have the best fighter of the world, the Messerschmitt 109 and everybody knows it, this world war I fighter aircraft’. And finally after half an hour he finished this blaming and he asked Mölders: ‘What can I do to improve the fighting capacity of your wing commanders at this time?’. And Mölders said he wanted to have the Messerschmitt 109 with the more powerfull Daimler-Benz 605 M engines, that was an engine with a higher capation [unclear] and this octane 100 fuel. And Göring said to his aide: ‘Take a note, Mölders will get the first engines’. And then he said: ‘What can I do for your wing?’. And I said: ‘Please Reichsmarschall equip my wings with Spitfires’. [laughs] I do not know, what gave me the courage. [all laugh] Göring was standing there, he was unable to say anything. He looked at me, he turned around and [unclear], trying to restrain.
I: That is legend, sir, it is legend now.
AG: But, I never did get the Spitfire. Mölders did get the engines, but I never got. But I was not punished, [unclear], I was not punished, I expected.
I: You were respected for us. In your opinion, if Leigh-Mallory had controlled 11 Group with his big wing tactics and Keith Park had controlled 12 Group in the battle of Britain, the two group commanders, do you think the outcome would have been the same?
AG: Ja, this is, as I said, true English question. I know this and I believe it would have been good to have a bigger formation than only one wing, only one squadron. But not the only group in one wing. So wings with forty, more or less, forty aircraft or twenty to forty, that would be the best in my opinion.
I: Why were Messerschitt 109s not fitted with dropable fuel tanks during the battle of Britain?
AG: That was a real mistake, absolutely was forgotten or they were not available, we have used in Spain already as I told you, but for the 109 we did not, we did not [unclear]
I: And yet it would have helped your range.
AG: It would have helped but we would have, had to drop the tanks already when we came over England.
I: Yes.
AG: Because the dogfight, fighter against fighter, with drop tanks ist not very [unclear]. So later on when we got them, Göring extended an order not to drop the tanks, only when we were attacked.
I: One of the major factors was that the Luftwaffe didn’t concentrate its attack on the communications network and particularly the radar stations. Why was that so?
AG: A mistake.
I: Again a mistake.
AG: Absolutely a big mistake.
I: You knew about them.
AG: Ja, we knew of them, we had photos and it was a mistake. It was a mistake to finish the attack against Fighter Command was a mistake also, we should have continued. Ensure the british fighters did not come up when we came only by fighter. We had to use some bombers to go with us, to drop some bombs, to force the british fighters to come up. But to switch over from the battle against Fighter Command to the attacks on London was a terrible mistake.
I: How would you compare the Messerschmitt 109e with the Mark I Spitfire and Hurricane? I believe yours actually had Mickey Mouse on its, why did you have Mickey Mouse as your logo?
AG: When I was in Spain, Mickey Mouse had just come up everywhere and one of the pilots already in operations had the Mickey Mouse. And I did like this, I said, I will take the Mickey Mouse also, modified it a little bit and then I was told I should not use the Mickey Mouse because it was an American.
I: Yes, quite.
AG: Toy and this did make me decide to have it at all, to keep it and I kept it all the time.
I: Yes, indeed.
AG: I still today in my car [laughs].
I: And how do you think the 109 compared to the Spitfire then? The 109e?
AG: The e was not the best, the g was later better, g4. The Messerschmitt was, besides bad conditions in taking off and landing, based on this narrow undercarriage. The Me 109 had only one advantage, that was the fuel injection of the engine. We could easily use, manoeuvre was negative g, [unclear]
I: Yes.
AG: And the engine would drive perfectly, would not stop. We knew it was the carburator immediately when you get negative g and it stops. So, we could, when we were fired, we dropped only the nose down, and always more down and we could escape. This was a advantage. In other flying conditions both types, the Spitfire and the 109 were more or less equal. Acceleration. Manouvreability was better in the Spitfire, the Spitfire had a lower wingload, had a lower wingload and was better in manoeuvre, but acceleration were more or less the same.
I: Yes. I understand, Sir, that you had three brothers who were also fighter pilots with the Luftwaffe. Did they see service throughout the war with you?
AG: Ja, Ja. First came my younger brother to my wing. He started as a anti-aircraft and he was unhappy there, I took him out and he got a special training and then he came to my wing. And he became very soon a very capable, very good fighter pilot, very good. He had in his time 57 victories between b7, four-engine B-17s, was a high number. And he got the Ritterkreuz, this decoration we had. And my younger brother, the youngest brother, he had some difficulties, he came also from the anti-aircraft and had also a special training. I took him in my wing and in the beginning he had very high difficulties and he asked me to help him. So, I went with him to his 109 and he was sitting in the aircraft, immediately I saw he was sitting in the wrong way in the cockpit. When you had not the right position, then, the, what is when you are shooting?
I: Gunsight.
AG: Gunsight. Gunsight. He was sitting wrong behind the gunsight and this resulted in a mistake of his balance, of his shooting.
I: Yes.
AG: So, I corrected this [unclear] he got in the aircraft and from one day to the other he shot up.
I: Really?
AG: He was so happy. I also. He was a very young fellow, he died with twentythree years, he had 17 victories. And the elder one, he was, was a bad fighter. He was really a bad fighter, he wasn’t able to do anything, he was hopeless, so I managed to get him to the air reconnaissance 109. He flew there but he was not successful [unclear].
I: Did the two other brothers today survive the war with you?
AG: Only the elder, only the elder one but in the mean time he died also. Ten years ago.
I: Alright. I understand that at one time your crew chief was actually given a rocket for saving your life. What’s the story behind that?
AG: He one time did install an additional
I: Armour plate
AG: Plate,
I: Armour?
AG: Armour, armour plate behind me. And this armour blade went over my head and he didn’t tell me when I crossed the cockpit and were taking off, I shut the roof and I hit my head terribly and I blamed him: ‘You did not tell me you installed this’. ‘Wait, when I’m back I will tell you something’. And during this mission, I was shot down and I got an impact on this plate, exactly on this plate. [everybody laughs] So I didn’t blame him, I gave him zweihundert Marks and a special leave.
I: Yes. There is one well-known photograph of your Messerschmitt with a modification of a gunsight. It’s a well-known photograph.
AG: Was a mistake.
I: Was it?
AG: Was absolute a mistake. I thought I could use it for shooting on a longer distance but I learned immediately it is good for nothing, it wasn’t even good to identify the planes. When you have a plane in front, sometimes it is difficult to decide is it 109, or is it Spitfire. So, I thought when I looked through this, I can make it out [unclear] you cannot get it concentrated in anything so I decided to get [unclear]. But this aircraft, many times it has been photographed and many times on many photos it appears with the gunsight. We had not, we had a simple gunsight I have to [unclear] this was a fixed gunsight but what we had needed was a gunsight which was directed by
I: Gyro,
AG: BY gyro,
I: By gyroscope.
AG: By gyro. This we have needed terribly. We got it finally late in ’44 but it didn’t work properly. So this was an advantage on the british you had this gyroscopic gunsight, which made shooting in terms much easier.
I: Without Operation Barbarossa, the attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, would the American 8th Air Force and Bomber Command, in your opinion, have been able to sustain the bomber offensive?
AG: No, no. We were already so much beaten at this time, we would have more fighters available for the air defense and the losses would have been higher on the other side but we could, would not have been able to stop the air offensive. The western allies, the English, the British, they did a very clever thing, to split up the air offensive in day and night offensive and the british concentrated completely on the night. This was very clever, very clever. So, we had to build up a nightfighter airforce, nightfighter force, which did not exist at the beginning of the war. Göring said: ‘Nightfighters? We don’t need them. It will never be a night bombing’. So, when he made the decision, it was a decision, it was [unclear] this. He did not accept anything what was critical or negative of the airforce, everything was first class what he did.
I: Were you ever in charge of the night fighters?
AG: Ja, I was in charge and this after the catastrophe of Hamburg. In this case, Kammhuber, general Kammhuber was responsible for the night fighters and he was a very stupid man, he didn’t fly himself and he gave orders which the night fighters didn’t accept anymore. He was using one night fighter against the incoming bombers and he could only guide one fighter. And at this time, when the Bomber Command switched over to the bomber stream, all the night fighters wanted to follow the stream, they could see it by night, depending from the visibility but with lighting from the ground and with the fire over the towns, our night fighters could see the bomber stream and by the bombers they shoot their fire, they could follow this stream but Kammhuber did not allow our night fighters to go with the stream, to follow. So, they came, the night fighters came to me and they said: ‘You must help us. Our commander, Kammhuber, he bind us on one radar, in the range of one radar, in a circle of 120 km, he bind us and we want to follow’. We used Window the first time in Hamburg and this did lead to a complete catastrophe of Kammhuber’s tactic. So I had to tell this Göring and Kammhuber was released of the [unclear] and he went over to fleet commander, airfleet commander North, 5th airfleet.
I: In Norway.
AG: Norway. And he blamed this on me, Kammhuber, they said. He didn’t say to me but he was convinced I had originated this trouble. And I had, so we had not a very good relationship [unclear]. And after the war Blank was the first man who did set up the beginning of the air force and Blank wanted to have me as the first commander of the air force. And he invited me to come and talk to me and he said: ‘I did not want to have high ranking officers of World War I in the new air force, they are too old. So, everybody has voted for you, you should be the first commander of the air force, when you accept it’. And I said: ‘I am coming from Argentina, I have no idea what is going on here, I must be, first get a complete information what is done, what is planned and so on’. And then finally this was done and I decided to go up to do it, that [unclear] did say this to Blank. Then came a stop on the rebuilding of our new air force because the French blocked, they blocked this, was the European Defense Committee, Community and [unclear] came up this time. And the French did stop the European Defense Committee. So, and this was one time delayed and then this time Kammhuber came as the first commander of the air force because Blank did change against Strauss, Strauss being Bavarian he brought Kammhuber with him, who was also Bavarian and he was [unclear] over. Kammhuber did build up the air force. Was a nice story. When Kammhuber was in charge of the night fighters, I had to see him in order to use his night organisation also during daytime. Kammhuber did denie this completely, he said: ‘No, I have set up for the night fighters and you are day fighter, and they will set up your organisation, radar and everything’. And I said: ‘No, that is not true, we are not so rich that we can do this. This is a hotel with a hotel organisation, we have a night porter and a day porter, you are the night porter, I am the day porter’. We blamed for hours, we could not convince, and then he said: ‘ [unclear] I will show a complete new radar installation I have just set up’. And we went in his car, a big Mercedes, open Mercedes, his big flag as commanding general on front and there was a soldier of the infantry [unclear] He blocked us and said: ‘Your passport’. Kammhuber said: ‘Don’t you know me?’ ‘No. Passport’. [unclear] said: ‘Do you know this flag? I am your commanding officer’. He said: ‘This can be said by everybody. Passport.’ Kammhuber made a head like this and finally he said: ‘Do you know him?’. He looked at me and said: ‘Ah, I believe I have seen him on a [unclear], on a newspaper, in front of a newspaper, a big photo. I think that this is Major Mölders, then you can go’. [unclear] He was [unclear] also, Major Mölders.
I: I’ve been asked by some of the veterans who flew from the Yorkshire fields, where we are from, from 5 Group and 6 Group veterans, what were your feelings towards the night bomber crews, when you were general of night fighters?
AG: I didn’t understand too much about night fighting, I must say this, I’m a complete day fighter, and [coughs] we had a saying as dayfighters: the night is not good for fighter pilots, the night is good for bitches, but not for fighters. But really this was a good organisation and also the guiding systems we had in the night fighters they were very fine, very very fine. And the night fighters did have a better fighter, leading fighter, guiding organisation than any fighters had but they did not need it.
I: This was Wild Boar and Tame Boar.
AG: Ja.
I: After the raid on Schweinfurt-Regensburg, did you think the 8th Air Force could be stopped by the Luftwaffe?
AG: No, I did not believe this, there were too many mistakes done and too many things were not performed. When Hamburg occurred, everybody, Göring did call a big meeting and all important men were present at this meeting. There was a unique opinion, we have now to change the priority and we have to give the air defense first priority. And we have to stop everything else but we have to concentrate all our power on air defense. Göring was convinced and he decided to bring this up to Hitler immediately. This meeting was in Hitler’s headquarters, Wolfsschanze in East Prussia. So Göring went to Hitler. He came back after one hour, he was completely destroyed, he broke down in his quarter and finally he ordered [unclear] and myself to come and he said: ‘Hitler has not accepted our plan. Hitler has decided to build up a new attack air force, a new bomber air force to bomb England. Bombing can only be stopped by bombing, not by air defense’. And he had explained this to me and Hitler has right. He fall down completely, he is right as he is always right. The way through air defense is too far away and we were stopped, we were blocked from continue bombing aim. So Peltz, general Peltz, a young fellow was made the attack guidance, the attack commander in England. This was immediately after Hamburg.
I: 1943.
AG: Ja. Unbelievable, unbelievable.
I: Was this the beginning of what they call the Bedeker Raids?
AG: Ja.
I: Where they used the Bedeker Atlas to bomb.
AG: Ja.
I: May I ask you general?
AG: Göring was not stupid, he was a clever man. He knew this was wrong, but he has never resisted Hitler. When Hitler gave an order, he immediately was of the same opinion, because Göring was not a man for combat, was not a man for fight, was not a man for war. Göring wanted to continue his life as the most richest man in Europe, he wanted to be brilliant and he didn’t like the war at all.
I: Without a western front to defend, could Operation Barbarossa have succeded?
AG: Could?
I: If Germany had not been fighting on two fronts, could you have succeeded with the attack on the Soviet Union?
AG: With the attack on the Soviet Union. It is difficult to decide but we were close to win the battle, but we have been blocked again by beginning the offensive against Russia by the Italians. When you have the Italians as your allies, you have 50% of the war already lost, you we can be sure. [UI and UI2 laugh] Really. The Italians have started the war in Africa, so this did force us to go to Africa. Then, Germany wanted to take over Malta. Mussolini said: ‘No, Malta, we will take over. You can take Greece’. And we took Greece with much losses and it was not good for nothing, I know. And the Russian campaign has been delayed by the Italians again, this time by the war in the Balcans, by attacking Albania. And we had to go to the Balcans. This [unclear] a delay of half a year. Again our allies deterred us. So I still am going to say, if we could have won the war, I think we could have broken the power of Russia, we could have. We were close to Moskow and if we would have started half a year earlier, everything would have been much more in favour.
I: A huge country of course.
AG: Ja.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst
AG: I knew the war was lost, was probably or was not to be won, there is a difference, already in 19, in the second war Russian campaign, this was
I: 1942. 1942.
AG: 1942. In this year I remember conversations I had with the chief of staff of the Air force, Jeschonnek, who told me: ‘You can believe me the war cannot be won anymore’. I said: ‘I agree competely’. But we were not allowed to talk about this, to tell this anybody. And we, ourselves, we fighters, young people, we knew the war could not be won anymore but we hoped, did heartly hope, that the war could be brought to an better end. This means, the unconditional surrender condition, this was something we are fighting against up to the last man.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst Udet. When did you realise that he had committed suicide and what are your memories of Udet?
AG: When we at the funeral of Udet, we were told by Göring, Göring could difficultly close his mouth if he wanted to talk. So, he did tell us what has happened and some weeks, three weeks before, I was with Udet one night in the special train of Göring in East Prussia. And Udet was completely broken, completely broken, he was blamed to be responsible for the armament which were not going up and [unclear] and this was true. Udet was responsible for the development, for test, and for armament, for building, for the industry, and this he could not do, he was not able to do this at all, he could not organise the industry and he did not have the help to do this correctly. And therefore, he missed completely, lost completely this order to build up the industry. But this was not the responsibility of Udet, this was the responsibility of Göring to make him responsible for this. There were other people, Milch is an example, was absolutely more capable to do this and the production went up when Milch took over the post of Udet. So, is this the answer?
I: What are your memories of him as a person?
AG: Oh, he was a wonderful man. He was a wonderful, charming man, he was an artist. He was joking, he was very much liked by everybody. He was a great flier, pilot and you could have a lot of joke with him. And we did have.
UI. Yes.
AG: He did like the whiskeys.
I: And the ladies?
AG: Also.
I: [laughs] I understand that Douglas Bader was a guest of Geschwader 26 for a while.
AG: Ja. I have the date here when he was shot up, that was in 1943. There was an incoming English Royal Air Force attack, Blenheims with escort of Spitfires, and we had a big fight over the Pas de Calais. This was my wing and the wing Richthofen, but in this case only my wing 26 was involved, we did shot down I think 6 Spitfires and 2 or 3 Blenheims, I shot a Blenheim down. And I shot, I combat also with Spitfires but I think [unclear] off 3 Blenheims and 6 Spitfires downed. And in the afternoon one of my group commanders phoned me and said: ‘We have shot down one incredible man, an English wing commander, by the name Bader, he said, Bader said wanted only to be called Bader. He has two wooden legs and you must invite him to come immediately, bring him my invitation. And Bader had to bail out and he left one of his wooden legs in the Spit and the Spit landed with out him and my mechanics could repair this wooden leg a little bit. So, I was called some days later, Bader can come now and visit you. And I did send him my biggest car and a good looking, first Lieutenant. Bader came on. I had informed myself a little bit about him and it was absolutely a great impression, from the first moment, this stepped on his two wooden legs. And Bader said to me: ‘Can you send a message to our side that I am safe in your hands and I wanted to have a second set of my legs, which I have in my [unclear] and a good pipe and tobacco’. I said:’ Yes, I will try it’. So, then I phoned Göring in the evening and said: ‘We have Wing Commander Bader here, a man with two wooden legs, unbelievable man, sympathic and [unclear] the rules [unclear] immediately’. And I said: ‘We wanted, or he, he wanted that we communicate to the other side, to the English side, he is in our hands and he wants to have a spare legs’. And Göring said: ‘You can do this, we have done this in world war one, many times, you can do this, I like this, I like this’, the meaning was [unclear]. So, we put it on the way of the international sea rescue. It was confirmed from the other side, I communicate this to Göring and he said: ‘How do you want to do this?’ I said: ‘We are waiting now that the English [unclear] and then we make a proposal, we make an open space with an airfield and we guarantee a safe landing and coming to our side and of course we will make some photos’. [laughs]
I: Doctor Goebbels [laughs]
AG: This, our message was confirmed through the other side and nothing happened two, three days and then came in the same way, in the same way, the same frequency, a message: in this present attack we are doing, we drop not only bombs, we drop also a case with the spare legs from Bader. They dropped our airfield [unclear], no, not [unclear], Saint-Omer, dropped a case with a parachute, I have photos of this, there were the spare legs, that was not very nice, we were disappointed. So Bader many time has visited me, for tea and then I showed him the aircraft from my wing and showed especially mine, my 109 and he wanted to step out, he mounted the cockpit immediately with his wooden legs, this is unbelievable. And as he was sitting in the aircraft, Heidi, you must being the photos, and he said, I showed him everything, explained [unclear] please can you start the engine [all laugh] all around the place, only around the place. I said, no wing commander, let’s stop this nonsense because I have two 109s for my own personal use and if you take off I would have to follow you. And I would have to shot at you again and I do not want to do this. He was laughing. Of course he has never expected that we would start it. Then he was brought back to the hospital and he made an escape from the hospital, on the sheets from the prisoners, he did borrow the sheets and came down from the second floor to the ground and the last sheet did broke and he did fall down and he hurt one leg again and he had to go the hospital. So, he was immediately captured again. When I heard this, that he had escaped again, I was [unclear] because I had shown him to much [unclear]. I would have had [unclear] perhaps but he came back and he did make another escape. This man was unbelievable.
I: On that engagement when Bader was shot down by your Geschwader, there was another pilot and our research indicates that you shot him down and he lives in Sheffield, which is quite near to the Yorkshire museum. He is still alive today and he sends his best wishes to you.
AG: Oh, thank you. That was on this occasion?
I: Yes. Buck Kassen was his name and he was shot down and made prisoner of war the same time as Douglas Bader. And we interview him as part of this tape.
AG: What is the name of this Spitfire pilot shot down in?
I: [unclear]
AG: My victory 56. He calls himself your victory 56.
I: [unclear]
FS: I’ll take some.
I: May I ask you why did most of the Luftwaffe’s very high scoring aces, such as Hartmann, Barckhorn, Rall, why did they fly the Messerschmitt 109 rather than the Focke Wulff 190?
AG: In the beginning, the 190 was not available, the 190 was only available for wings from April ‘43, so up to this date they could only use the 109. The 190 came later, it was not, was not ready for being used by the operational units.
I: But even later, even later many of the aces still preferred the 109.
AG: Maybe. I personally flew the 190 the last months of the war and my latest was the 262 of course.
I: Yes.
AG: But the 190 was much better for attacks on bombers. The 109 was absolutely better for fighting fights against fighters. Danke. The 190 had a lot of protection against the bomber fighter, the Spit [unclear] engine gave you a feeling of safety.
I: Why did the death of one man, general Wever, bring about the scrapping of the german strategic bomber program and what were Göring’s and Jeschonnek’s views after the battle of Britain?
AG: Wever was an army general but as an army general he had a great understanding for air war and Wever was also a follower of Douhet, this Italian general, the inventor of the strategic air war. And Wever did promote the four-engine big bomber, he did promote this. Unfortunately, he killed himself in a flying accident. He started a Heinkel 70 with the rollers blocked in Dresden, came down immediately. If he would have lived perhaps we would have had a four bomber air force also. I believe this. But then Udet went to the States and he was convinced by the American navy air force, which were, they were using these dive bombers, and Udet was convinced by them that was the way for people which have not big reserves on raw material, like Germany, to get the same result by picking up pinpoint targets. And really Udet did influence the air force, the top air force men, including Göring, that this was the way for Germany to have the Stukas instead of the four-engine bomber. [unclear] we can get the same result if we had the power station of a big plant or we destroyed your plant. This is the same result. So, at this time, an order was given that all the German aircraft, even the twin-engine Junkers 88, could have been used, should have been used in dive attacks. Also the Heinkel 177, which was the German four-engine bomber, in which two engines were blocked, bound together, they should also go in dive-bombing, which was a mistake, of course.
I: When you were promoted to general in charge of fighters, sir, how old were you? You were a very young man, I believe. And how do you feel about succeeding Mölders?
AG: 29, 29 years and I was practically the immediate successor of Mölders.
I: How did you feel about that, sir?
AG: I was not happy, I was absolutely unhappy in these days because I wanted to continue as wing commander. I was very unhappy in this position. I wanted to fight, only to fly. I already upset with, myself with Göring when I was made wing commander, because I did believe I so much paperwork to do that I could not fly anymore. My intention was to fight.
I: Hitler awarded you the Germany’s highest award for bravery, the diamonds to your knight’s cross following your 94th victory. But I understand there was more to it than just the diamonds. You had quite a collection of diamonds in the end.
AG: Ja. The first diamond I got was the Spanish cross with diamonds. That was a german award very nice with diamonds in the middle. This was awarded, I think, nine times.
I: [unclear]
AG: And next I got the diamonds to the oak leaves to the knight’s cross. And when I got this, Göring did had not seen it before and I was sitting in Göring’s train [unclear] and Göring looked at me and said: ‘Are these the diamonds the Führer gave you as highest german award?’. I said ja. ‘It cannot be’, he said, ‘take it off’. I took it off and gave them to him [unclear]. ‘Terrible, terrible, The Führer knows everything, knows every carrier of the [unclear], of the german army, the german, he knows the complete trajectory, every gun, but diamonds, he has no idea, not enough. I tell you, these are splinters. Little splinters, these are not diamonds. Give it to me, I will, I have a jewelier in Berlin, who will make you another set. You will see what diamonds are looking like’. So I took it off and gave it to him. Some weeks later, I was ordered to come to his house in Carinhall. ‘Galland, look at here, this are the splinters of Hitler, these are the diamonds of Göring, who knows about diamonds?’. So, he gave me both sets back, I had now twice. Then, he must have told this to Hitler because some weeks later I was asked to see Hitler and Hitler said: ‘My dear Galland, finally I’m in a position to award you with the final edition of [unclear] decoration. Look at this’. He gave me this case. ‘Take a look, [unclear]’. I did not know for what is this order to come, I had the diamonds from Göring, the big ones. And he said: ‘Can you see the difference? These are splinters’. ‘This is obsolete’. ‘No, you can wear this every day. They are expensive, the big ones here. When you are flying daily, take the other ones. The splinters’. I was about to explode. He gave me both sets back, I did three times now. And then came a time, I was so upset with Göring, I had so big fights with him. And he had in one big meeting in Munich Schleissheim, there were about forty officers in this meeting and he blamed the fighters in a terrible way. He said we were not anymore brave, we were scapegoats and good for nothing, we were decorated highly at the beginning of the war and we did not pay for it. And most of the pilots had with lies made their high decorations over England. When he said this, I took my decoration off, I was sitting opposite to him and hit it on the table. Göring finished this meeting and he tried to calm me down, but I said: ‘No, you should refuse this [unclear]’. I said: ‘Göring, I cannot do it, I cannot do it, [unclear] I cannot take my decoration on anymore’. And I did hang this number three [unclear] in my office in Berlin and this Olympic game installation and hang it on the neck of the wooden [unclear]and It was hanging there, I didn’t take my decoration for, I think, five months. And then Hitler one day saw a photo of mine on a newspaper, Berliner Illustrierte, and said:’Why is Galland not showing his decoration?’. And Hitler was told the Royal Air Force was bombing Berlin. And Hitler said: ‘You should [unclear] immediately and get a new [unclear]. I had to see Hitler without. And Hitler said finally: ‘Bad luck, but you have a new set’. But this is was number four. [laughs] And by the end of this war I was wearing this number four and I took this as prisoner of war with me, until we were asked to take it away. But I could keep this with me and [unclear] till today. That is the only set. The other sets, one was burned, two sets, [unclear] was liberated at the end of the war by the americans,
I: They might be somewhere in America still, probably.
AG: I talked to one man who has one set.
I: Really? Amazing story. You were responsible for the fighter screen when the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugen made the famous Channel dash. How was this success achieved under the eyes of the RAF?
AG: I was made responsible for this fighter escort, is true and I was in a meeting with Hitler and Hitler at the end of the meeting he took me away and said: ‘Do you believe this operation can be performed?’ And I told him: ‘It is possible, but the first condition, first and most important condition is complete, this operation is completely secret. And the English should not know about the operation, should not know when is going on and so on, completely secret and Hitler said: ‘Yes, I agree 100%’. ‘But’, I said, ‘there is a lot of risk in war’. Hitler said: ‘In all my operations, the last years, the biggest risk was the [unclear], it was true, he always was playing with this risk, in an incredible [unclear]. Hitler agreed and when the operation were prepared very much in detail and seriously, very seriously. And I invented the callname, the codename for this operation.
I: Really?
AG: I invented Donnerkeil. This was not accepted by the navy. The navy called it, what was it?
I: Cerberus.
AG: Cerberus, Cerberus, they called it Cerberus. And this was good and in so far as the British secret service knew about this was [unclear], not in detail but they knew, we were preparing it. They did believe this were two different operations, they did not bring the two operations together, so this was an advantage. And then our highest chief of the communication, Martini, he did use for the first time a big system of disturbing the English radar and this disturbation gave the English the impression we were coming in with big [unclear], with big offensive formations and this did help a lot. And the weather did help a lot, it was a miserable weather and on the English side, not in France, nothing, this did help us also. So, we had finally the success based on a lot of luck, lot of luck and our fighters were brave, fighting very very brave. I remember I had my two brothers in this operation and they told me.
I: And a very british Victoria cross was ordered in that operation too. What are your memories of the ace Hans-Joachim Marseille? And how did you regard him as a fighter ace, in comparison to Hartmann?
AG: In my book, the virtuoso, [unclear] but he was a single fighter, also was not a [unclear], nobody could follow him, he did fly like Richthofen, more than Richthofen
I: As a loner, as we would say.
AG: He was not able to guide four fighters there. And he got so impacts I think in his last [unclear] and he did make a mistake by escaping from the aircraft. He didn’t make a [unclear] but he did in the beginning. And was pulling out and he hit the tail. Later, I personally did escape twice by our new method took the nose up, engine down, nose up and then we pushed the bottom very strongly unclear], the aircraft did make this motion and in this situation the pilot was ejected really, the pilot was flying up ten meters, thirty feet and this was this [unclear] method risky.
AG: Ja, we’re finished now.
I: We could move to the end of the war. So, Germany’s experience with jet fighters where of course the Messerschmitt 262 was the first operational combat jet fighter in the world. Do you feel that that aircraft, if it had been available in sufficient numbers in 1943, could have altered the bombing offensive? And what was it like to fly? What was it as an aeroplane?1
AG: I’ve known this airplane I think in June ‘43 the first time and I have made a report on this, I have a copy of this. On Saturday the 22 of May ’43. I’ve flown this aircraft in Ausgburg, taking off in Ausgburg, is a Messerschmitt plant and this a report about this first flight addressed to Feldmarschal Milch. He was responsible man for armament and for development. And I am saying, this aircraft [unclear] us complete new tactical possibilities, this is a revolution and I recommend therefore to stop the messerschnitt 262 development completely and to take this out of the plan. Concentrate only on the Focke Wulff 190 D development and all capacity and concentrate from now on to the 262. This will give us greatest chances supposed that the allies, the Americans and the English [unclear] continuing their operation on piston, only on piston driven fighter base and bombers. WE knew that they were also developing the Meteor and did not know when they were ready. But the 262 would have given us the biggest chance if we would have the time. The development of this project was stopped and delayed, later delayed by order of Hitler, because he was of the opinion that the war was shortly before to be won and developments would take more than one year to be finished, would come too late [unclear]. That was his argument. And without this [unclear] development, which was done by Messerschmitt and by Henkel, was done without being known by Hitler, was done in secret [unclear] of Hitler. Only in the last months of the war, when the aircraft was there, when the RAF made this first light tests, and this report, then he decided to use it only, only as [unclear] against the invasion. This is the aircraft, with which I will fight the forthcoming invasion, he said in my presence, this is the aircraft. I order this aircraft to not be used in any other form and should not be imagined in another operation as [unclear].
I: What was your opinion, sir, of the two other jet fighters that did see operational service or limited, the 162, the Heinkel 162 and of course the incredible Messerschmitt 163 Komet, the jet, rocket jet fighter?
AG: The 163, the rocket fighter was already under development and I knew about this and this would have been a compliment for the anti-aircraft, only for the defense of certain objects, like the derrick oil plants. I was of the opinion that this plane could be used for this object protection with a certain success. It would have been that a lower flight plane target with flight time, with power was only 6 or 8 minutes but the aircraft was then so high up that it could make one or two attacks and then go down. This was only an additional aircraft for the air defense but the 162, this was a political development. It was supposed to set the Hitler
I: Hitler Youth.
AG: Hitler Youth on these planes then only with the training of gliders, which was completely wrong, completely wrong, I was against this development because I said youngsters cannot fly this plane with success, this is absolutely impossible. Secondly, the engine BMW 003 is not so practical, [unclear] that it can be used only one engine on one aircraft, we need two engines. And certainly the 163 with this engine behind the pilots and without the exit seat, this would result, every pilot who tried to bail out would land in the engine. So, I have fought against this plane because the concept was only based on a political wrong thinking, absolutely wrong thinking. And this should have been performed and executed by a, the youngsters and responsible for this was the fieldmarshal or the general, colonel general Keller.
I: From the first world war.
AG: Ja, from the first world war. And I took Keller with me to Nowotny on the day in which there was a , was shot down, hit the ground. In order, my intention was to show him what a jet operation does mean, more complicated than this and at the end of the war, when I was leading my JW 44 in Munich Ried, two or three handful of this 162 came to me and said we want to fly with you. They didn’t have any success at all. So this was, the 162 was a complete wrong concept from the beginning. A political development.
UI. We’re getting near the end, sir, but can you very briefly tell us about JV 44? Is it correct that all the pilots have the night’s cross?
AG: No, no, this is not correct. We had several pilots with the knights cross and most their officers and at the end of the war, pilots who were in hospitals or were in, wie heisst das [unclear]? the recovery stations, they came to me and said:’We want to be, we want to fly under you’, they all said: ‘we want to fight the end of the days with you’. And I have accepted this. So, in the last week or two last weeks, I only accepted such pilots who wanted to continue to fly. Pilots who said, [unclear] for family reasons or something like this and I do not want to fly anymore, he could do this, he would not be punished at all. This were only Freiwillige, free will pilots, [unclear]
I: Volunteers.
AG: Volunteers, volunteers. And Steinhoff had this terrible accident, he was the man who was responsible for operations in my group 44, strong and he believes he had hit a [unclear]. I believe he pushed the wrong button, Steinhoff was used to take off with flaps in and only when he reached, came close to the take off speed, then he dropped the flaps, this [unclear] a little bit [unclear] the take off. But in the Messerschmitt are two buttons, one is for undercarriage, one is for flaps and they are close together, you can see on old cockpits. I think, yes, he pushed the undercarriage. Then he tried to take off, he made a jump, restored its speed, came down with too early engines about 2000 feet after he came lifted from the ground, came down, he hit the ground and burned out.
I: Did you see the crash?
AG: Ja. I was number one, he was number four in my wing. This was the last, my last mission. Finnegan believes he should, this American guy, he came, I shot down two more others in this mission and I didn’t know if the second one was already finished so I made a turn, looked at this [unclear] and [unclear] gave me some shots [unclear].
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions.
AG: Finnegan or when the Americans say, you were shot down by Finnegan, that is not true, I could manage to get home, one engine was hit, ja, that is correct but I could manage to come down and manage a perfect landing with one engine on my base on which I had taken off, is not a victory.
I: Not at all, an American-type victory.
UI2: Unconfirmed probably.
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions, if I may. You are now 82 years of age?
AG: Ja, unfortunately.
I: How do you feel about the events of 55 years ago, during the battle of Britain, when you were fighting for your life, all this time, all this long distance from battle, how do you feel?
AG: At this time when this had happened, we did never believe we would survive. Even in the last days of the war, when I flew the 262, I didn’t believe I would survive the war. I was real ready with my life, had a good life and [unclear] success, [unclear] success in my life and I always wanted to be better than others and I got the feeling to be better than others [unclear]. So, I am thankful for my life and I think it was an extraordinary class of life which I performed. And I thank God for being with you now and have survived all situations. And I have the experience of what I say. I have had so much responsibility during my military life and when I saw the terrible destructions of the allied airwar in Germany and I saw the people who did suffer in such terrible form, I had only the wish and the intention to fight up to the last minute in order to compensate, not to win the war.
I: General Adolf Galland, this has been a real pleasure, sir, we greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Marvellous sir.
I: Thank you sir. You are part of aviation history.
AG: [unclear]
I: Yes, yes, we do, we have some presentations for you.
I: On the way here, sir, I had to pinch myself to make sure that it is real, that I am meeting Adolf Galland. A small gift, sir, on behalf of the Yorshire air Museum.
AG: Thank you.
I: Our air museum plan.
AG: I’ve got quite a collection already.
I: I’m quite sure you must have.
AG: Thank you.
I: The history of our county town of York. You to have a look at.
AG: Oh ja.
I: We have to sign it.
AG: You know there is a collection of signatures there.
I: Yes. We are going to sign these as well.
I: These are other people at the museum.
AG: Oh ja.
I: Would you be so kind as to sign some bits for ourselves, sir?
AG: Ja.
I: [unclear]I’m quite sure you must have.
AG: Thank you.
I: The history of our county town of York. You to have a look at.
AG: Oh ja.
I: We have to sign it.
AG: You know there is a collection of signatures there.
I: Yes. We are going to sign these as well.
I: These are other people at the museum.
AG: Oh ja.
I: Would you be so kind as to sign some bits for ourselves, sir?
AG: Ja.
I: [unclear]
bombing
Fw 190
Goebbels, Joseph (1897-1945)
Goering, Hermann (1893-1946)
Hitler, Adolf (1889-1945)
Ju 88
Me 109
Me 110
Me 163
Me 262
perception of bombing war
Spitfire
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/282/3435/AJenkinsAE160709.1.mp3
d7f55b2a9645816ec63b14a23072b635
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Title
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Jenkins, Alexander Elliott
Alexander Elliott Jenkins
Alexander E Jenkins
Alexander Jenkins
A E Jenkins
A Jenkins
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One oral history interview with Alexander Elliott Jenkins (430033 Royal Australian Air Force).
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-07-09
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Jenkins, AE
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Transcription
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RG: Preamble to the interview with Alex Jenkins of 6 Belton Place, Orange, New South Wales, Australia. Alex was a Lancaster pilot in 460 Squadron who was shot down and although he spent some time in a German hospital it was only a matter of a short, a fairly short time. He wasn’t ever in a prison camp. He was returned to the UK and resumed operations in 1945. Interviewers are Rob Gray and Lucie Davison. Also present at the interview was Alex’s wife, Pauline.
AJ: In fact one of my colleagues coming in clipped the top of Lincoln Cathedral and he went, he could have really cracked. Clipped the top and he had to, after that to just, for some reason or other he couldn’t continue but he continued, lost height slowly and finally belly landed [laughs] not all that far from where he’d come down. But he went clean through the biggest chicken farm [laughs] in the whole of England. Can you imagine all of the, all of the God-damned chickens. We renamed him after that for obvious reasons.
RG: Chook.
AJ: Chook.
LD: Do the intro.
RG: Hmmn?
LD: Do the intro.
RG: Yeah. I’ll just do a quick intro, Alex. This is an interview with Alex Jenkins. Former pilot with 460 Squadron.
AJ: Yes.
RG: And survivor of being shot down. Interview. The date is the 8th of July. Interviewees are Rob Gray and Lucie Davison. So do you want to lead off?
LD: Yeah. Look, I’ve basically, I’ve kind of, you know compiled just a little order of service but it’s really just to make sure that we try and cover all bases.
AJ: Yes.
LD: You know.
AJ: Yeah.
LD: It’s certainly not meant to be definitive. So —
AJ: I know. You’ve got to have some guidance.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Yeah, it’s —
RG: But on the other hand also this way, because you’ve done interviews and things before haven’t you?
AJ: Yes. Some time back I had an interview. Pauline. My memory, by the way is, short term memory, is very, very poor now. I’ve been a bit ill and so on and I can’t remember accurately even some of the simple things.
RG: Oh yes.
AJ: So Paul, when she comes in, if there’s something that I can’t remember she knows a fair bit about it.
RG: She’ll know about it. Yeah. Ok. I was going to say though that we were particularly interested in, like your personal recollections.
AJ: Yes.
RG: So if something comes to mind.
AJ: Right.
RG: Please feel free to divert from the original question.
AJ: Yeah. Right. Right.
RG: So Lucie do you want to —
LD: Yeah. Just interested in your background and, you know, where you grew up.
AJ: Right.
LD: And why you joined the air force initially.
AJ: Yeah.
LD: And so on.
AJ: Yes. That’s rather interesting because it starts really with the history of my father who was terribly knocked around in the First World War. In the, in France. He wasn’t at Gallipoli, but he was in France. In the gunnery groups. And he was gassed and terribly injured. Came back home. And from the time he arrived home just before the war finished in France, he was in and out of military hospitals. Never really recovered enough long term and as a result of that — and my mother was born way up in the Kelly country of North Eastern Victoria with the, her surname was Cann. C A N N. Now, C A N N.
LD: Cann River.
AJ: Now, Cann River and all those things were well documented. The Canns were horse breakers and they were rabble rousing. And in fact William Cann, and this is not apocryphal, William Cann was the principal horse breaker and roustabout in the Kelly gang.
RG: Ah ok.
AJ: And William Cann, he was actually jailed after the shoot-up and so on and served his time. And as my dear mother used to say, ‘Don’t you mention that you’ve got a relative — ?’ [laughs] Most people were very interested. Particularly since he was the one who used to, they had a little tin with a bit of wire around and, and make the fires. It was nicknamed — billy can.
RG: Billy can. yes. Yeah.
AJ: Billy can.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That’s where the term first started to be used. Used. It’s in —
RG: Of course. Yes.
AJ: The Billy can.
RG: William Cann. Yes.
AJ: Anyway, my father was in and out and he, on my eighteenth birthday I was one of the first Legacy awards. We were raised in the slums of Toorak. Toorak, you know, down by the railway lines in those days was a cut-throat area. It was criminals, and God knows.
RG: That’s like Surry Hills in Sydney at the same time. That sort of —
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That was my raising. We were very, very poor. I was brought back from the country where my mother was — she went there I think after they got together. I’m not quite sure how they got together straight after the war. But I was a sort of lad that was caught up in the Samuel McCaughey whip around in the north. I think, darling that if you wouldn’t mind when we have the tea that you sit here too with me as I —
PJ: Why. I’ve heard it all a thousand times before [laughs]
AJ: I mean, I was saying my memory is pretty terrible in various things. Anyway, she [pause] I was brought down under the state government’s attempt to round up these uneducated wild kids.
LD: Right.
AJ: Of which I was one. And we were forcibly removed from the family in North Eastern Victoria, black books, and brought to Melbourne for our own good. Shades of the roundup of the aborigines.
LD: Yes. Absolutely.
RG: Oh yes. There was more than one stolen generation.
AJ: As a result of that I was often in sort of foster care. And my mother was ill. Etcetera etcetera. And dad had had such a terrible life that —
[background chat]
AJ: It was impossible, it was quite impossible for me to forget that sort of thing. And my dad finished up, when I’d turned, was approaching eighteen I was fortunately a gifted kid in education. And I finally got to Melbourne Boy’s High and had an excellent career there and my legacy guardian was none other than Bill Woodfall. The great cricketer.
RG: Oh ok.
AJ: And they, oh they were wonderful people and they looked after me. And I, as 1942 turned over I found myself at Melbourne University in first year. So —
RG: What, what discipline?
AJ: In engineering.
RG: Engineering.
AJ: Engineering yes. And metallurgy. Materials. So I, at the time when I’d completed first year university at Melbourne that would be ’42. I felt, on my eighteenth birthday, dad was in Bundoora Mental Asylum, behind the wire.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Terrible.
RG: As a result of the war.
AJ: Yeah. And I said I’m going to get even for dad and so I joined up at eighteen. On my eighteenth birthday. 29th of October 1942. Well, all hell broke loose because that was a protected profession.
LD: Yes.
AJ: You weren’t allowed to join the service.
LD: Yes. I was wondering how you could join up.
[background chat]
AJ: I got as far as Somers camp and the university and the government people forced, came down and said, ‘You’re coming back. You’re man-powered. You can’t join the services.’ I went back to Melbourne Uni and I stood before the enquiry group of the profession and some of the representatives of the professorial board at Melbourne University and the government official who was man-powering people. I said, ‘I’ve got news for you. You can all get stuffed. I’m not going to continue my course. I’m going to join the service.’ Prof Greenwood was the professor. An English don of the old school.
RG: The old school.
AJ: He was a wonderful bloke. He was called the pink professor simply because he spoke out, you know, more on moral social issues.
LD: So pink as in shades of communist.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Shades of red.
AJ: Yeah. And he fought for me and he won. He said, ‘This man must be allowed to serve. And join and serve. He has had such provocation. And we will see him on his return when he can resume his course.’ Well, that was it then. I joined the air force. Went in to training at Benalla and went solo and so on there. And after a lot of argy bargy after I’d completed the conversion on to Wirraways at Deniliquin. The great Australian fighter. We graduated to get our wings. You know, to become young sergeant pilots. Well, in the interim, just briefly I had been leading a small group of three on our last, final flight before graduation. Now on a long cross country to be twenty, fifty feet above all obstacles. Low flying exercise. And as part of that low flying exercise by tradition we used to bring the Wirraway down. You could imagine at nearly two hundred miles per hour and the great wheat fields, if they were in that stage —
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Which they were when I was ready for graduation you’d bring it down, you’d look in your rear vision mirror and when you were cutting a furrow along the top of the wheat.
RG: You were low enough.
AJ: You were low enough. But —
LD: So, six feet will do.
AJ: Three of us. And the trouble was that the farmers, they hated this practice.
RG: I can’t understand why.
AJ: Because, you know this was low. We had to get the low flying experience. And the air force had the horror of seeing me charged by the civilian.
RG: Authorities. Yeah.
AJ: They appealed you see, and I was made an example. I was the leader of that flight. And so instead of just rapping me over the knuckles and saying, ‘Don’t do it again because you’re so close to graduation,’ I got sentenced to twenty eight days in the Geelong jail.
RG: My God.
AJ: As a civilian. As a young man in training. It caused such a colossal outcry. You know, here what the hell is it coming to.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: If a guy can’t train for war and the civilians say he can’t do that.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Anyway, it was famous. People went through all the business and when I got out.
LD: So you did have to serve the time.
PJ: Oh yes.
LD: The RAF wasn’t able to —
AJ: Oh it was terrible because they brought all the rapists and the murderers down from the Queensland coast. They were frightened of the Jap invasion up there. And they were all, all of the worst types. And myself at eighteen and another young lad. A young bloke. I don’t know what his offence was. We served, but we served, and you could imagine what those nasty bastards. I didn’t know anything about male practices on other males. I was innocent. But finally we turned around and the other bloke and myself and we were young. Fit. And we belted some of these, some of these vicious saddoes and guards up. And they took it out on us and really did us over. Anyway, the end of the twenty eight days came, and I got back to Deniliquin, and graduation. Another month. I was a month behind after my internment. And the graduation came, and everyone, step forward so and so, sergeant so and so, step forward so and so such. And the Hs, you were doing it. And the I’s. The J’s came and went, and my name wasn’t mentioned. K L M N and right through to the end. And then there was a bit of a drum roll and the commanding officer and the big wigs thing there then said, ‘Step forward Pilot Officer Alexander Jenkins.’ They commissioned me of course. And that —
RG: And that’s, that would have been extremely unusual.
AJ: Oh that did. That caused. Anyway it was so bad in many ways. The whole history of the event. The parliament had gone crazy about this sort of stupidity.
LD: So you’d be there [unclear]
AJ: Two weeks later I was on a troop ship. Fast troop ship.
PJ: Just to digress so you can have another mouthful and another piece of cake or a biscuit or something. This went into limbo as far as Alex was concerned. He had to appear in court on a driving, a possible driving offence. He was not convicted but the barrister representing him said, ‘Alex, you didn’t tell me you’d already been in jail.’ And it was still on the records.
RG: Records. Yeah.
PJ: That he’d been in jail. So that was then. They did the right thing and removed it but you know he’d forgotten all about it at this stage.
RG: You would wouldn’t you? After, you know, you would.
PJ: He was sixty or something, you know and anyhow —
AJ: Being an officer and two hundred and fifty airmen. Sergeants, you know. Navs, pilots and so on, on this troop ship which took us solo straight over to the —
PJ: San Francisco.
RG: Oh.
PJ: You went to —
AJ: Coast up to San Francisco. And from there —
PJ: You went over. You were based in that. You know there’s that big base on that island there by the harbour of San Francisco.
AJ: Past Alcatraz. Yeah.
RG: Oh ok. Yeah.
PJ: San Francisco.
AJ: But from there on —
RG: Yeah.
AJ: As an officer I, it was fortunate that I suppose I was because we did our training.
PJ: But at your exercise in New York he was billeted out with the McGraw-Hill, the McGraw-Hill book people.
RG: Oh yeah. The publishers. Yes.
PJ: The millionaires. So he was billeted with them and they carted him around and he ended up meeting people and singing with Jimmy Durante and —
LD: Oh wow.
AJ: Lena Horne.
PJ: Lena Horne.
AJ: Lena Horne and I became very firm dance partners etcetera. It was quite a, quite a business and then —
RG: Quite an adventure for a young man from —
PJ: That’s right. From the bush in Victoria.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: It was fascinating.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Do you remember the name of the ship that you went on?
AJ: No. I don’t, darling.
PJ: On the ship. Let me think. Was it the Mariposa?
AJ: No. It wasn’t a —
PJ: It was —
AJ: I think it was the Lurline.
PJ: Yeah. Well the Lurline, wasn’t the Lurline the one that came across? It will be there in your, in your book.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: I’ll have a look and see if it’s there.
LD: Well that’s alright. It was just —
RG: It was just —
AJ: But anyway —
PJ: I’ll just have a look and see if it’s in his history there.
AJ: Eventually after about a month in New York the great convoy was formed and off we go. And that was —
LD: So, you did go across as part of a convoy.
AJ: A tremendous convoy.
LD: Right.
AJ: And accompanied by American flat top battleships. You know, the ones that had no structure on top.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Just guns.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: Things like that. We lost an awful lot of boats.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Of course. It was submarine attacks.
RG: So this was the end of ’42 wasn’t it?
AJ: This would be —
RG: What? Early ’43?
AJ: ’42 I joined. ’43. ’43.
RG: [Unclear] Battle of the Atlantic. Yeah.
AJ: And I got to Britain and my first thought as I saw Liverpool and all these barrage balloons. I said, ‘God almighty if they cut those balloons the bloody island would sink.’
LD: So, so did you arrive directly in Liverpool?
AJ: Hmmn?
LD: Did you arrive directly in Liverpool?
AJ: Yes.
LD: Or did you go around through Greenock.
AJ: No. No.
LD: Ok.
AJ: Directly in Liverpool. And from there the Australian contingent was taken down to, eventually down to Brighton on the south coast where we [pause] I did various training things. Learning to — how to get out of parachutes if you landed in water and all that sort of thing.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I wouldn’t call it nonsense but it was very very tough.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Activity. And I had.
RG: So that was sort of survival training.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Eventually I was.
LD: Sorry, was that done at Brighton or was that done —?
AJ: Yes. That sort of introduction to survival and elementary training in use of parachutes and things like that was all done at Brighton.
LD: Wow.
AJ: And then you were, well I was eventually posted up to places. I had completed first year uni and therefore in training I had a good mathematical background etcetera.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And so they fast-tracked me in training in the centre part of England for eventual allocation to the famous Mosquito high flying.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: PRU. Photo reccy unit.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And I was completely just flying so high, so fast.
RG: Did you have a multi engine licence at this point?
AJ: I was trained.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I went on first on Oxfords and that kind of.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Standard training for me. But that PRU interval — I thought this is great. Flying that fast and no one could see you or shoot you. That only lasted a couple of weeks because they said, ‘Look, we’re now Bomber Command.’ This is coming through now. The year would be ’44. And they said, ‘You’re, Bomber Command for you lad.’
RG: So when did you arrive in Britain, Alex? When was that?
AJ: I arrived in Britain in December ’43 and spent all of ’44.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Right through ‘til the end of the war.
RG: Yeah. Ok.
AJ: Ok.
RG: Just trying to get a sort of timeline on it.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That’s right. I was rapidly put into the Bomber Command thing. They were taking pilots from anywhere they could get them because the losses from Bomber Command were so —
RG: Well they had, the losses were, well the Battle of Berlin was just running down then wasn’t it and —
LD: Horrendous.
AJ: And I actually joined the squadron, 460 at the very last part of December ’44. So I, fortunately missed out on the Battle of Berlin and all that sort of thing. But I’d been flying at that time up and down the coast in our training, dropping aluminium foil and trying to assist in the confusion.
RG: The deception for D-day.
AJ: Yes.
RG: Was that, was that in Mosquitos? Was that in Mosquitos you were doing that? Or in —
AJ: No. No. Lancasters.
RG: Lancs. That was Lancs. Yeah.
AJ: Lancasters.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That was part of the training. So that that went through. D-day came and went and by that time I had not joined a squadron but aircraft like ours were deployed on all sorts of weird jobs. You know, we would fly way up to, right along the French coast, over the North Sea, dropping this aluminium foil.
RG: Yeah. The Window.
AJ: And D-day came and went. And then the awful business of starting to do, being injected into the bomber stream with, before the squadron. Before I joined 460.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I’d completed all of about half a dozen raids into the German areas near the coast.
RG: While you were under training.
AJ: While training.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: They were —
RG: They had the spoof.
AJ: We were losing so many aircraft.
LD: I know.
AJ: And of course when the jets came in, the ME262 jets came in around about October, I think of 1944. And our losses were just so, there was no answer to it. And so by the time I was finally allocated to 460 Squadron myself and my crew were well versed in some of these dangers. And the —
LD: So was this a crew that was set up within the OTU or —
AJ: I beg your pardon?
LD: The crew that you joined the squadron with.
AJ: Yes.
LD: Did you guys set up within the OTU or —
AJ: Yes.
LD: Right. Ok.
AJ: That’s right.
RD: Yeah.
AJ: It was a fairly standard practice that I went through once I was on the, on to the heavy aircraft.
RG: Can I ask you, Alex, how did that crewing up occur? Because we’ve spoken to other veterans and it’s a mixed bag between people actually just finding oh we need a pilot. There’s someone over there. We’ll just grab him. And a bit more formalised.
LD: Some people even meeting in a pub.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: So how did yours work?
AJ: Actually that was quite strange the way that crews were formed. Now let me think. The crew that I finally, my first crew it would be at [pause] let me think.
PJ: This is Campbell in all this lot.
AJ: Yes. That’s right. Now where the devil did that take place? But the system was, I might remember where it was. Somewhere in central England. Firstly, you’d get up, the officer group and there were only a few officer, officer pilots because the pilot was the, was the first. He was the senior man.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: Crew captain.
RG: Captain. Yeah.
AJ: The pilots that were officers, firstly stood up on this platform and there was all these —
[background chat]
PJ: Alex is deaf. Very deaf. So he wears a hearing aid but you might have to speak up a bit.
RG: Yes. OK.
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: Anyhow, I think it was the Lurline, Alex. I can’t find it, but I think it was —
AJ: At Lichfield.
PJ: No. The Lurline. The ship you went out on.
AJ: Oh the Lurline. Yeah.
PJ: The Lurline. But —
AJ: Anyway, the pilots, officer pilots would stand up first and give a bit of a spiel saying, you know, where they’d trained. Because a lot of them had trained in Canada.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Some in South Africa.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And I stood up and said I was trained fully in Australia and commissioned off the course. Which was most unusual.
RG: Yes. Yeah.
AJ: I didn’t go into the fact that I was in jail [laughs]
RG: It might have scored points with you Alex.
AJ: Yeah. And after that, you know the other pilots would get up and do the same and then the meeting in the great hall would dissolve from formalities and you’d just wander around. And then you’d have groups of guys. Gunners would tend to, they tended to stick together. And the navigators and the w/op wireless operator blokes. They’d all, they’d be talking and some of them had teamed up with another group. And they’d come up and talk to the pilot. Many of the pilots. And after a while things sort of settled down and I got, in my crew, I got, there were two Englishmen, ‘cause the first Englishman had to be the bloke sitting at the front with you on the right.
RG: The engineer.
AJ: Not the pilot.
RG: The engineer.
AJ: Hmmn?
RG: The engineer.
AJ: Yeah. Flight engineer. Because they weren’t trained out here. They were almost invariably Englishmen.
RG: Oh. Were they? Oh. Ok.
AJ: And the man who I, who came up to me had been in the army and was highly skilled. He was thirty two years of age. An old man.
RG: Yeah.
LD: That was an old man.
AJ: But his rank, I think was oh, major I think.
RG: Wow.
AJ: Frank Stone was his name. A real gentleman.
RG: Was he a sergeant then or was he still commissioned?
AJ: No. He’d re-joined —
RG: Yeah.
AJ: The air force as a pilot officer.
RG: Right. Ok So that’s a big come down though from major to pilot.
AJ: A big come down. He was, I remember he was the first guy. So I had, as the pilot, the flight engineer, Pilot Officer Frank Stone. And he had, for some reason or other known this rear gunner and he, those two joined me. And then the other group of Aussies — the mid-upper gunner, the navigator and the wireless operator were all Australians. A couple of them were, one of them was commissioned. Now, who would that be? Anyway, one was commissioned. And so that’s the way the crew was formed. Well, we went finally, as a crew. We got posted to 460 Squadron which was, you know, we all thought oh that’s it because 460 had a great reputation and what’s his name? The VC.
PJ: Hughie Edwards.
AJ: Hughie Edwards.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Was at that time the 460.
LD: Apparently, he was the world’s worst driver.
RG: Oh was he? [laughs]
LD: Yes. He had a Mercedes.
RG: He was a pilot. Yeah [laughs]
AJ: He was a shocking pilot. Oh my God.
PJ: And then he had a Mercedes and apparently, he had more dents in it because there was a 460 Squadron —
AJ: But everybody said that you fly with Hughie [laughs] at your own risk. But he was charismatic.
PJ: Yeah.
AJ: How he could instil wonderful, wonderful feelings amongst his squadron.
PJ: One of those, one of those sort of pulling off bays, you know, along the highway. In Canberra.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yes. Hughie Edwards bay.
PJ: There was a Hughie Edwards there and his brother that was, that must have been put in, I suppose seven or eight years ago. I can’t remember but we were down there.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: It’s been a while.
PJ: And his brother was there, and he was telling a story of what a frightful driver. He had a Mercedes and he had more dents in it than you could poke a stick at.
AJ: Anyway, I’m probably getting too far ahead for your questions.
LD: No. No. We’re actually.
RG: No. No. it doesn’t matter. We’re actually ticking them off as we go. Just carry on Alex.
AJ: I started flying in combat from 460 right on [pause] almost New Year’s Day of ’45. When the, I’d been flying in, in to but not in to direct combat. We were doing interjections before that as a crew.
RG: So was that the sort of the spoof raids?
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Those sorts of things. Anyway, the first real operation was either New Year’s Day or immediately after. And —
PJ: Weren’t you involved in that Battle of the Bulge? Where, you know, there was such terrible weather.
AJ: Yeah. Yeah.
PJ: That was New Year’s. That was Christmas Day.
AJ: Yeah. Well that’s —
RG: Oh that’s right. Christmas.
PJ: It was terrible weather.
AJ: It was awful weather.
PJ: Nobody could have — the Germans couldn’t come in and the —
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: What’s the name of the town?
AJ: We were all grounded.
PJ: I’m trying to think of the name of the town.
AJ: The bomber force was grounded because of the weather.
PJ: Because there’s a memorial to the Yanks.
AJ: And then it lifted and oh God they launched everything including training aircraft against the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge. Anyway, my first raid was done as what they called a second dickie.
LD: Oh yes.
AJ: That’s a senior pilot and his crew would take you. You’d sit there in the flight engineer’s seat.
RG: Little seat. Yeah.
AJ: And you went through the raid and learned that whatever and if you were lucky you’d return. They didn’t like second dickie trips. I’ve taken a few too on when I was skilled.
RG: Yeah. When you were — yeah.
AJ: And you never liked them because for some reason or other they seemed they were cursed.
PJ: Bring you bad luck.
AJ: Bring you bad luck. Yeah. It was a fair few. Well, ok I started after that with the crew and we had a series of raids which I won’t go into but near the, on about the 20th or something of February we went to Dresden. Awful. Awful. You know the story of Dresden and so on. How we, most of us just made it back because the tremendous long trip to Dresden and the awful conflagration. I’ve often been back to Europe with Pauline.
PJ: Well, when we were in Prague. He wouldn’t go to Dresden.
AJ: We’ve had opportunities to go back to Dresden.
PJ: That was only a couple of years ago.
AJ: Just over the border and I just said no. I just can’t. I’ve never returned to Dresden.
PJ: One of the most interesting things I find with history is its very one sided. It depends who’s telling the story.
RG: Absolutely.
PJ: And you get an enormous amount and when I, ‘cause this is the second marriage for both Alex and I but we’ve now been married thirty two years so it’s been a long, a long hard road [laughs
AJ: I lost my first wife, the mother of my kids to cancer. Breast cancer.
PJ: Anyhow, the thing is that when I first married Alex he was still having nightmares about the Dresden raid etcetera and so forth and you hear a lot about the horror of the Dresden raid, but you seldom hear about the horrors of Coventry. You know, if you go to the cathedral and you see walls left and that amazing cross and so on.
RG: Been to the cathedral. Yes. Yeah.
PJ: You seldom hear this. You seldom hear. And when I was first in Europe in, because I wasn’t in the war, I’m younger than Alex but I was first in the Europe in ’54 ’55. So I was there for the tenth anniversary of the end of the war and so on. And I went through Hamburg. I went through Germany and I couldn’t believe it. You wouldn’t know there was a war there because the Marshall plan had rebuilt everything.
RG: Rebuilt. Yeah.
PJ: But London was still derelict.
RG: Yes.
PJ: All around St Paul’s was still flattened and so on.
RG: Yeah. In fact, just last night we were watching a film which was made in London in — 1953 was it?
LD: ‘51
RG: ‘51. Yeah It was in —
PJ: Still all the bomb damage.
RG: It was in the city and there was buildings down everywhere
AJ: Well, I’d better continue hadn’t I?
PJ: Oh yeah. Sorry.
PJ: That was my fault Alex.
AJ: No. No. It was —
PJ: The history is interesting.
AJ: It is interesting.
RG: It is.
PJ: Interesting.
AJ: After the Dresden we got home and the, the three nights later we went to Dortmund. A bombing raid which was pretty rough. Pretty terrible. And coming home it was midnight. Snow on the ground. And the worst possible conditions for bomber aircraft because it was heavy cloud low down. Full moon. And just above the top of the cloud which was at our return flying height, so we were in and out.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: But often silhouetted.
RG: Yeah. Silhouetted.
AJ: Against the white cloud below. We were caught by — over the German Belgian border by a Messerschmitt 262. Jet.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: They were so fast. Fully armed with cannon.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Not just machine guns. And it blew the starboard wing of my Lancaster clean off. I mean there was no, no, you know, pilot stay in his seat, hold it until the rest of the crew baled go.
RG: Just go.
AJ: And the poor crew of course who were serving. They were at their desks and so on. Never. Their parachutes were strapped to the side of the Lancaster.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: So they always had to somehow get to them, put them on.
RG: And then get out.
AJ: While I held the aircraft.
RG: But you couldn’t do that.
AJ: Theoretically in a position where they could bale out. Well there was none of that because the cannon blew the starboard wing right and the aircraft just disintegrated at twenty two thousand feet. We all went out. I never saw my crew again. Naturally. They fell to their deaths. And I, being a pilot, occasionally you’ll see this in the record in such a case the armour plated bucket seats, which I’m sitting on, sitting on your parachute went out like a cork out of a champagne bottle.
RG: The whole seat.
AJ: The whole seat. Yeah. And I don’t remember anything of that naturally. Just the disintegration. Nothing. I must have fallen. Well, I obviously did because I came to at about two thousand feet. And there’s no steel seat. Somehow that had got lost in the fall down and the parachute harness was still on me but the parachute was unopened. There’s a stick sort of thing.
RG: Handle. Yeah.
AJ: And on fire just above my head.
RG: On fire.
AJ: Yeah. And this great hero at that stage looked down and here’s a church. And we were in a little a place called Lummen in Belgium. And I looked at that and so help me, this is written up and it’s quite true. There’s no exaggeration. You know, I’m a few seconds from death. What do you think the great hero thought at that time? Christ, if I don’t bloody do something that, that’s going to go up my arse. True [laughs]
LD: [laughs] Well it would have looked very small from that height too wouldn’t it?
AJ: Talk about anti-climax. I think people who ask me what’s my, my biggest memories. I said that little thing [laughs] I thought oh gawd. So I gave the rip cord a tug and so help me this burning sticker top opened up just sufficient because I landed in the church yard.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Not on the steeple.
AJ: Not on the steeple. And I think, they say I landed in the peach tree, somewhere near, in the gravestones and so on. In any event I survived the fall. It was in no man’s land. And the Luftwaffe were in charge at that time around that part and of course we had some respect for the, or a great deal of respect actually for the massed combatant. Combatants of the Luftwaffe and there wasn’t —
PJ: And he was also quite seriously injured.
AJ: Wasn’t particularly, if you’d seen the Wehrmacht or something they would have slit my throat. I believe, quite soundly, I was finished in a field hospital of which the Germans were in charge and they saved my life. And all things went on in there and I won’t go through that but some time later —
PJ: They were retreating. The Germans were retreating and left him behind.
AJ: Eventually the Canadians moved through the area and I remember being interviewed there. I spoke up for the Luftwaffe nurses and staff.
RG: Did they leave staff there? Just for interest’s sake, some staff?.
AJ: Yeah. They didn’t want to get back with the, because they didn’t want to go to Russian front.
RG: Oh. Ok. Yeah.
AJ: And I said these people had treated me very very well. I honoured them and they wished to be taken in charge as prisoner of war ectera. ‘Yes. Yes. That can be done. But you’re under arrest.’
RG: Alex, this is becoming a habit [laughs] you know that don’t you?
AJ: And this was, this was a pommie colonel.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Oh did I give him hell.
RG: Why did he say you were under arrest though?
AJ: Good question. You know, I said the same thing, ‘What the f’ing hell are you talking about?’ Anyway, he went out and about an hour later he came back.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And he confirmed some of the basis of the story that I was saying.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And the point was that he raised that issue early because such was the loss, terrible losses of our crews.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: I must have to be sorry to say that it’s not often mentioned in the records. Many of our bomber crews cracked under the strain.
RG: Yeah. Yes.
AJ: And they used to fly over such places to become prisoners.
RG: Yes.
AJ: Or even better to get into Sweden, Switzerland or something and save themselves. They’d had enough. They were cracking.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And really the Germans were winning the air war. There was no doubt about it.
PJ: Yeah. If Hitler wasn’t such an idiot, he would have won.
AJ: He would have. He would have won. All he had to do was keep on going a little bit longer, you know. But anyway as a result of that I was pulled back to Britain some, a week, or ten days. I forget the length of time, later. And instead of being repatriated home immediately which was the usual thing the wonderful base commander, also an Australian. And that was —
RG: Don’t ask me what his name was. I can’t remember.
AJ: Binbrook was —
RG: This was the base commander not the squadron commander.
AJ: That’s right.
RG: Yes.
PJ: [unclear]
AJ: I was flying with the Australian commander at that time. I forget his name now. But the base commander was an Australian too.
PJ: Cowan. Wasn’t it? The base, not the base commander but Cowan.
AJ: No. Cowan was the guy who came in. His crew I finally picked up.
PJ: I can’t remember the name of that fellow. I met him at that —
AJ: No. Anyway he said Alex I’m going to ask you a pretty terrible thing. He said we now have, because of the losses being brought about by the jet aircraft which Churchill refused to allow our air force commander Butch Harris to try and describe to we, the crew because Churchill believed that we’d all surrender.
LD: So did you not —
RG: Did you know about those?
LD: You were not informed that these aircraft —
AJ: No. We were kept in the dark about these engineless things.
PJ: Aircraft.
AJ: That were shooting us down. It was deliberate by Churchill because he had no faith in Bomber Command. He hated the bloody air force. Anyway, he said, ‘I want you to stay here and to pick up the new squadron commander, Wing Commander Cowan.’ He had no experience anyway. He was barred from flying. Anyone above the rank of full squadron leader was barred from flying, because of our losses. And he said, ‘We can’t, we have his crew who were perfectly ready to take over, but they won’t have a pilot. We want you to volunteer to continue in action.’ I said, well I thought about it for about one second and said, ‘Yes, I’ll volunteer.’ So, I was appointed the pilot and commander of the new untested crew. Mainly Aussies. And —
RG: I wanted to ask. Can I just ask, how did that, so they worked up that they were the wing commander’s, Wing Commander Cowan’s crew. They’d worked up with him, trained with him and whatever. And then he goes and you, you jump in.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: How did it work out with them? How did you —
PJ: He’s still friendly with — there’s one in Melbourne.
AJ: Yeah. Well the camaraderie within the squadron was absolutely tremendous. Even though we were being shot to ribbons. And people respected me because they all believed I was dead. When I turned up [laughs] I just rescued my tin in the steel box of personal goods from the, that’s called the graveyard down in London. They used to take —
RG: Sorry, what was that? They used to take the stuff down to what was known as the graveyard.
AJ: When crews went missing or were killed in action. And there were many. Their personal belongings were generally put in a big steel trunk. Sent down to London to the, ‘dead meat factory.’
PJ: Then to be shipped home.
AJ: And then shipped home
RG: We were going to ask you about that if you don’t mind. The Committee of Adjustment term that we’ve heard which is very little information on.
PJ: Never heard of it.
LD: These were the people who picked up —
PJ: Oh yes.
RG: It’s an old term from the nineteenth century. It’s an old British army term and I’ve heard it in Bomber Command. That how, when a crew went missing, were killed that process of who, who did it. And it varied in different squadrons and stuff.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Who came and picked their kit up.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: And we’ve also heard about censoring. That they’d go through and —
AJ: It was the same committee that — I’ve heard of it. I don’t know much about their operations because they were — you didn’t want to know.
RG: No. No. You wouldn’t.
AJ: But they were the ones too who used to pick up the belongings of people who cracked up in combat. Many of us did, you know. Many, many guys would return and they’d be [pause] and they were sentenced. Sentenced. Think of the modern treatment of such people. LMF. Lack of moral fibre.
RG: Lack of moral fibre.
LD: That’s another —
AJ: That was the worst term in the air force.
LD: Yes. Yes.
AJ: Lack of moral fibre.
RG: So what happened, again LMF is naturally there is very little information because no one wants to —
LD: And what you read is so inconsistent.
RG: Yeah. And different squadrons, different groups seemed to do this different in different, well the Canadians did it differently from us.
AJ: That’s right. They all had their certain people that looked after that. And they were ostracised. It was almost too, too much to bear to talk to such people. You know, you’d be, even as an officer in the permanent quarters where my room were because I was a pretty senior officer, combat officer. And, you know, you’d be at breakfast or something after a raid or [pause] and, you know, ‘Where are they? What’s happened?’ And they these people would take over. And when you saw them I could recognise them, but they never socialised with any of us.
RG: Who were they?
AJ: I don’t know.
RG: Were they officers?
PJ: Were they part of the air force?
RG: Were they officers or were they —
PJ: Were they part of the air force or civilians?
AJ: Oh yes. They were air force guys.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: They would dress just like the rest of us but from memory now, that’s right, they had a tag. A tag up here and if you saw them we used to, well we had various words for them. Death heads or something or other. I forget now. But there was no camaraderie with such people. They were terrible around. They had an awful job to do.
RG: They did didn’t they.
AJ: But in my case, I got back. I take over Wing Commander Cowan’s crew and away we go. And from thereafter I think we did another ten or fifteen combat bombing trips. Some finished up in daylight with the American Forts. I admired them, the Yanks. Even though they were bombastic bastards [laughs] we used, we used to fight like hell in the pubs. They were always, we reckoned chasing our women. Our women. We used to call the ladies from Grimsby that we’d invite out to the officer’s mess, famous mess out there called the Village Inn, the Grimsby night fighters. For obvious reasons. But they were, they were lovely, lovely lasses. And strangely enough it wasn’t a sexual trend although that obviously went on. But it was, they were, they seemed to accept their role in a beautiful manner. They’d calm you down when you were dancing, and these are the memories now that are very strong in my mind.
RG: Yes.
AJ: Since the horrors and the trauma of my experience after my recent illnesses for some reason has faded away.
RG: Faded away.
AJ: And I am now touching ninety two and as Pauline says I have a, I don’t have the awful trauma. Only the funny things
RG: The good ones.
AJ: Of the Grimsby, of the Grimsby girls.
PJ: In your second stint, that was when you did Operation Manna.
AJ: Yeah, that’s interesting. As Pauline has just said. After [pause] no. Before the war finished the — a group of Germans and the whole of Belgium and Holland was grounded. It was sealed by Montgomery’s army. And Hitler being Hitler refused any suggestion that these people, that the German and there was a hell of a lot of Germans there, should surrender. And therefore the Red Cross and International Red Cross I think it was mainly who organised a cease fire in order that Lancasters, because of their great load carrying ability would be used to drop food to the starving Dutch.
PJ: Yeah. All the dykes had been busted.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: So Holland was all flooded so there was no production of food.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. It was impossible to get any other way.
AJ: That was amazing. I did about three. Three or four of those.
RG: That was amazing thing, wasn’t it?
AJ: And the worst thing about it was that there were only certain areas that you could drop this food and the stuff we were dropping, you know. Big two hundred pound bag of potatoes and bulky packets.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Of all sorts of food wired up in our own bomb bays. And we’d release those at about, to nearly two hundred mile an hour. We had to fly no higher than a thousand feet over all of the approaches to this area. And the German gunners were, this was unofficial trips.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: You could see, you could set the watches on the —
RG: 11 o’clock. We’ll, yeah, it’s over.
AJ: And we I remember so well the time when the plane in front of me in this great field that was up above the flood waters fence. And all around the fence would be the German troops keeping the starving, and they were starving.
RG: Yeah. Starvation.
AJ: Ordinary folk away. Well the plane in front dropped successfully and suddenly, terribly the German troops, they laid down their arms and raced to get the food. They were starving too.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: And then followed by the people. Can you imagine it? I’m approaching.
LD: Oh and you’re coming.
AJ: And suddenly dropped them as you came in.
LD: Carrying two hundred pounds of potatoes.
AJ: I’ve got to drop. I’ve got to drop. The plane is ready to drop. So I dropped my load and so help me God. You could see them. You know. if you get hit in the head with a two hundred pound bag of spuds at two hundred miles an hour.
RG: Two hundred miles an hour.
AJ: There’s not much of you left. Well I did about three. Three or four of those. And in there I have a plaque that was issued to those of us on Operation Manna. And on the way back, trying to recover our sanity we went on, going past these great windmills with great Lancasters — four engines. You approached the windmill [boom] and the wheels — vroom [laughs] We had photos of that which have gone missing now. That was Operation Manna. And then, after the war, some three days after the war, Churchill ordered the air force to provide a skilled crew. A pilot, with the facilities in this Lancaster for photography. For the record over all of Germany.
RG: The destructed. The destroyed cities. Yeah.
AJ: And hence my first long range. I was selected, and you had, I had on board about eleven or twelve senior people, photographers, ladies, WAAF chiefs. Some of them were very senior people. And at a thousand feet we flew all over Germany taking those. They were quite famous photographs.
PJ: These are the negatives we gave to the War Memorial last year.
AJ: The negatives we gave. We have the copy. Particularly that famous one.
RG: Of the bridge.
AJ: The bridge of Cologne.
AJ: Over Cologne. And the funniest thing of all I guess was the fact that those long trips the ladies of course, it wasn’t set up for ladies in a Lancaster.
LD: From what I’ve heard the elsan wasn’t very well set up for men either.
AJ: The elsan. I had strict instructions I gave to my rear gunner that he wasn’t to switch. I could sense when he moved his turret.
RG: Turret. Yeah.
AJ: I said, ‘You keep that bloody turret looking out.’ But a couple of times there I could sense what was going on. And he was laughing like hell there. So there was some funny things.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Then further on we joined the new force.
RG: Tiger Force.
AJ: Single Australians with very long, highly experienced crews.
PJ: Tiger Force.
AJ: Tiger Force. At the home of east, at East Kirkby which is famous anyhow.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And we started to bring back, we’d fly tremendous distances all over Europe doing various tasks to get experience for when we were to be based in Iwo Jima.
RG: In bombing Japan.
AJ: That had just been taken by the Yanks. To bomb Japan. Can you imagine these long range Lancs up against the Japanese Zeros defending their own land? Over Tokyo. But the worst thing about it was that we would not have enough fuel to return to Iwo Jima.
RG: So what was to happen? Land in China?
AJ: We were too overfly. Think of this for a crazy bloody.
RG: Planning.
AJ: Arrangements made by that idiot Churchill and others to overfly Tokyo in to deep Soviet Russia and to land at a field of opportunity.
LD: Oh because it would all just be sitting there.
AJ: There were no maps. We were just told that you overfly if you survive. You can overfly, land where you’ll be refuelled and rearmed and you could come back. There was no way we would come back. It was a flight to death. But that’s what we were up for. But before we got down on to that level we were, we did a lot of flying down to the south of Italy to the coast. Bari.
RG: Oh yeah.
AJ: Because that Bari became the central point for the collection of all the poor darned prisoners of war.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: From all around that area.
RG: From right up through Europe. Not just to Italy. Everywhere.
AJ: Down. Yeah. All the prisoners that were to be returned to Britain were to be, as far as possible collected from Bari.
RG: Brought back through Bari. Ok.
AJ: We’d fly down and bring them back.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Ten on each side of the Lancaster, strapped.
LD: Of course I’ve heard this, and I’ve wondered where they put them and how they put them.
AJ: Well that’s it because the Lanc became, of course almost unmanageable with twenty people. It’s centre of gravity was all over the place.
LD: Yes.
AJ: It was highly dangerous work.
LD: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: But we did quite a few of these trips and on one trip — this is quite a funny story really. We had realised and so had the people down in Bari that a nice little trade could be organised. We’d take down the, we’d bring back the prisoners but what do we do?
RG: Come back empty.
AJ: About taking them down because you can’t sort of turn up an opportunity to load up your Lanc bomb bay. In a station like Binbrook there were hundreds, literally hundreds of push bikes.
LD: Of course. Of course. Yes.
AJ: Pushbikes were, of course, used by everyone. When a crew went missing no one’s interested in the pushbikes. The bicycle dump was bigger than the bomb dump. And we, a lot of us got our little heads together and said if we take down bikes wired up in the bomb bay and then exchange them down there for fruit, Italian jewellery, you know. For all the goodies that were missing in England. Ah, great. So this trade started. Well we’d done quite a few of these trips bringing back the prisoners itself was —
RG: Key thing.
AJ: A very emotional experience. But mid-way through this exercise the bloody military police down in, our own coppers —
RG: Yeah. Yeah. The crushers.
AJ: Down in Bari. They had a racket or two going too and we were undercutting them, you know. And so they decided that they were going to stop us.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: By arresting a few of the crew and causing mayhem.
RG: You didn’t get arrested again did you Alex?
AJ: What happened was that I got, to there was about six or eight in this flight. I happened to be leading it, of Lancs from Binbrook with our bikes. And we’re flying at about fifteen thousand feet down the Med. We get a call from base saying, ‘Get rid of those bloody bikes. The cops are waiting for you in Bari.’ How do you get rid of bikes fifteen thousand feet over the Med? Obvious.
PJ: It is really.
AJ: I opened the bomb bays and wired them, and at my command, ‘Bombs away. Bikes away.’ And so that’s what happened. And can you imagine suddenly out of the [laughs] hundreds of bikes?
RG: You’ll see them down there on the floor of the Mediterranean there is all this piles of bikes.
AJ: That’s it. in the future, five thousand years away there will be some stupid palaeontologist saying these are unusual.
LD: There’ll be some child who was down on the beach that’s going, ‘Mum, can we go out and get some of those bikes that fell in to the sea?’ ‘Oh, you stupid boy.’
PJ: Wouldn’t believe it.
AJ: Oh dear. But when we got down there and the cops raced into the aircraft. Nothing there. Bomb doors open. Opened the bomb doors. Nothing. I can still see [laughs] they knew they’d been beaten.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Didn’t find anything.
LD: What did you do with those bloody bikes. What bikes?
RG: What bikes?
LD: They didn’t find anything else to arrest anybody for instead did they?
RG: I’ve just got this mental image of all these people riding pushbikes in these 1950s and ‘60s Italian movies.
PJ: That’s right.
RG: And they’re all RAF bikes.
PJ: Of course they had no transport so —
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: So there was some funny stories amongst the tragedies.
PJ: What else is there? I can’t think. Actually now there’s, in Lummen, where Alex came down.
RG: Sorry what was the name of that town again?
PJ: Lummen.
RG: Yeah. How do you spell it?
AJ: L U M M E N.
RG: Ok.
AJ: Lummen.
PJ: They now have a street, an Alexander Jenkins Street, Strasse in the new subdivision there.
RG: Oh truly. Oh wow.
PJ: Yeah. The mayor wrote last year.
AJ: Yeah. What happened was oh about 1983 or thereabouts.
PJ: It was ’83 because that was when I was going through those things for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
AJ: ’83. They, the local people in Lummen. The younger men and women who had no real experience of the war decided that they knew all of them now. They knew the history of that terrible night. The number of aircraft shot down over their, over their area on the night of the 20th.
PJ: Very close to the German border.
AJ: And they decided that they knew that there was somewhere in this rhododendron swamp. Beautiful rhododendron forest but there were bits of my aircraft that had been in that swamp. Had not been discovered and taken away in the great clean-up straight after the war had finished. And they were just resting in pieces until then. And a number of them, the patriots decided they’d find the remains of my Lanc. Which they did. They were amazing the way they did it. And anyway —
PJ: They didn’t find much.
AJ: No. They didn’t find much. The heavy undercarriage survived of course. A few other bits and pieces. So at about ‘83 this occurred, and they finally had got through the ID markings on the, on the remnants. They knew that it was a bomber from Binbrook. The records showed that that was the site of the Lanc. And they decided that they would try, they knew there was one survivor. The pilot.
PJ: They didn’t know that at the outset did they because that young, the young girl that looked after the graves, first of all they had all of you.
AJ: Oh yeah that’s right.
PJ: Lost.
AJ: It took a long time.
RG: For everyone.
PJ: For them all. And we met this young girl who, she was a twelve year old when she used to look after the graves.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Because they were buried in the village.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Now they’re in the war cemetery.
RG: War cemetery. Yeah.
PJ: But in the small war cemetery.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Not in any major ones.
AJ: No.
PJ: Because they said, you know, their our guys. So it’s a small war cemetery.
AJ: They decided that they would get this, these bits and pieces and build a memorial. And the identification — they searched everywhere. Records and so on to try and find the name and the whereabouts of the surviving pilot. Me. Well, officialdom, particularly in Australia and for good reasons you make at that time, you make an enquiry like that and — no comment. Because of the threat of retaliation and bribery and things. People getting even if they handed out that sort of information.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough.
AJ: Where Joe Blow was, who was doing this at that time in the war. Where is he now? I want to go over and shoot him.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: So they didn’t pass any info at all. They couldn’t get anywhere with it. But in any event, they finally did, through the university system. See, I was a professor in the, I was a foundation professor at the University of New South Wales and eventually also a professor in charge of the Department of Materials and Metallurgy at Sydney University. And Sydney, the university has this international academic thing over and they, apparently there was a publication in England about me.
PJ: Well there —
AJ: And they found me.
PJ: Apparently, yeah, apparently, there’s a university magazine that goes out and this fellow in Belgium put an ad in this university magazine seeking the whereabouts of this Alexander Jenkins.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: And Alex had already retired so the registrar of the Sydney Uni rang Alex and said, ‘I don’t know what you’ve been up to.’ And also the Department of Foreign Affairs got in touch.
AJ: Yeah. They said, ‘What have you been up to? You’re wanted.’
RG: Again. Get stuffed.
AJ: Well we were —
PJ: It was.
AJ: Planning to go back at that stage.
PJ: Well, I was working and when I married Alex he said I’d like you to retire in five years. So, ok, because he didn’t know what he was going to be doing. So by the time I retired he was on every rotten board in the country and he was never at home so I could have killed him. But that’s beside the point. So the people I worked for, they, they knew I was going to retire so this was ’86. It must have been. And they said, ‘Look you’ve done a good job for us. We think you should get a new car. We’re suggesting you get BMW and we suggest you go to Munich to pick it up.’ So I was quite happy to do that. So we knew we were going to be in Europe. And we took a house about fifteen kilometres out of Florence for about six weeks or something. So we had all this in place. Well then when they finally got hold of Alex we said we could be there etcetera and so forth. So we went, and we drove into this town and there were thousands of people and Alex said, ‘It must be market day.’ It wasn’t market day it was us and him.
LD: It was Alex Jenkins day.
PJ: And it was incredible.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Did you go by car and wave like the queen?
PJ: It was a big deal.
AJ: It was a big deal.
PJ: The head of the NATO forces for Belgium was there. Colonel [unclear] And there was the Australian Ambassador to France, I think he was. And there was the British Ambassador to somewhere or other. They were all there and it was interesting and we, and Colonel [unclear] said to me they were going to unveil a memorial to Alex’s crew.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Outside the church. So, and Colonel [unclear] he said, because it was a Flemish area. There was a book written about Alex, but it was in Flemish. Have you ever tried to get Flemish translated in this country? It’s almost impossible.
RG: I know one person who can do it.
PJ: Well, I found one person who could do it and she was in Adelaide. And it was interesting. My daughter was working for the Commonwealth Bank and the girl at the desk next to her, she was saying, because Alex was coming up for his eightieth birthday and I was trying to find some way to get this translated so he could, so that I could give it to him for his eightieth. Well, so Louise was helping me. And somehow, she said something to this girl and she said mum, she’s a translator. She’s married to an Australian but she’s from the Flemish region of Belgium. Anyhow, Colonel [unclear] said it in Flemish and then he said it in English and so on. And there was a guard of honour drawn up for Alex and they were all the Resistance fighters. And they were all old, and they were gnarled and they were a tough looking bunch. And they made him an honorary member, his medal’s in there, of the resistance. Well then Colonel [unclear] had said to me, ‘Be prepared for a bit of a surprise.’ So they go through all this and then they gave him a flypast of F16s.
RG: Wow.
PJ: They came over the top of the church.
RG: Yeah. To recognise.
PJ: It was quite amazing. It was a very emotional day. We’ve been over a couple of times since. But —
AJ: It was quite something. I’m standing there and in front of the dais and the colonel and there’s all the Resistance. Wartime blokes. God [laughs] they were a rough bunch with their berets and so on and when he said that there would be a celebration and he didn’t really describe it except that I thought, you know this is something to do with this air force business.
PJ: No. He didn’t tell you. He told me. You didn’t know anything about it.
AJ: No. I didn’t. And anyway, the, I’m standing there and just waiting. And, in the background, I heard vroom vroom vroom and I thought, My God. that’s a bloody aircraft on full power, flaps. It’s a, there’s a word for it in some tactical approach. Supersonic aircraft flying as slow as possible with flaps down.
RG: Flying down.
AJ: And undercart still retracted.
RG: Ok.
AJ: But flying as low and as slow.
RG: Slow as possible.
AJ: It takes tremendous power for a plane like that to do that.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: And they were revving the engines. Vroom. Vroom. Vroom.
RG: Virtually standing on the tail. Yeah.
AJ: I thought, oh my God, I think I know what might be coming because that’s the first part of a ceremonial, highly meaningful but seldom performed performance by aircraft in the honour of a fallen or a number of fallen comrades. Prince of Wales Feathers it called. Anyway, sure enough and low on the horizon was that. How many were there? About six weren’t there? I think so.
PJ: No. I think there was four or something [unclear] to make the Prince of Wales Feathers.
AJ: No. Six it would have been.
PJ: Anyhow, whatever.
AJ: Anyway just over the top just above the ground really and I’m looking at that and I thought I know what’s coming now because what happens is that they move away. That’s meant to be the sound of the human heart.
LD: Yes. Yes.
AJ: Vroom vroom vroom. Then they move away. Get out, away from the crowd and everything else. They reassemble and this time —
RG: Come back.
AJ: They come in with full power as an arrow group.
LD: Yeah.
AJ: And then vroom just above and straight up and then they.
LD: That’s where they get the name the name the Prince of Wales Feathers. Just spreading.
AJ: Prince of Wales Feathers.
LD: Spreading like the feathers.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Yeah. The beating of the human heart first and then the departure of the soul to heaven.
RG: Yeah. Ok. I didn’t realise the significance.
PJ: These, we were guests of this —
AJ: Gosh it was so impressive.
LD: What a wonderful thing for your crew isn’t it.
AJ: I had tears in my eyes.
PJ: The pilots took us to dinner. Their wives took us to dinner that night and one of the wives was saying that she, she, they used to hide under the table during the war. And she said her mother used to say she could hear the Lancasters going over and she’d say, ‘There goes the sound of freedom.’ So —
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: She’s but she —
AJ: What a story that —
PJ: This Colonel [unclear] was the air attaché to the Belgian Embassy.
AJ: He was a wonderful bloke.
PJ: Embassy in Washington. And his wife told the story that when they went over there they had three daughters and the youngest, the littly really spoke no English at all. The other two were bi lingual. Anyhow she gets her there and she didn’t know whether to send her to school or not and so on. So she sends her to kindy and when she gets home her mother said, ‘How was it? How did you like American kindy?’ She said, ‘Mum, it’s quite good but, ‘she said, ‘You know none of the kids could understand a word I said.’ So she said it took her a while. But they were delightful people. When we were there a couple of years ago he was too ill to meet us but no this first trip we went one of the, oh well there’s a, there’s a little memorial. Alex has photos there and it’s made of the, the what do you call the big straps that the wheels go in.
AJ: The oleo legs.
PJ: Ok. And they made a chapel of them.
AJ: And then on top there’s this —
PJ: But then they, and there was an ink drawing of Alex falling out of the sky with his parachute on fire and so on. And there were a whole stack of kids. There was just so many people there. And I tried to, I was saying to these, trying to explain to these kids that that old guy, he didn’t have a beard then but that old guy over there was the guy falling out of the sky. They looked at him. They looked at it. But this bloke from the Australian Embassy had very kindly brought a pocket full of little gold kangaroos, you know so they dispensed these out to the kids.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: And they thought it lovely fun. But at the same time there was a dinner that night a reception that afternoon and a fellow gave Alex, this father and his son came out and the son spoke very good English as they all do. The father wasn’t [unclear] but he had a gold watch he had which belonged to one of Alex’s crew and he asked if we could try and return it to the family. Well I was still working, and I tried and as Alex said earlier you can’t get any information. People don’t give you any information. So when I retired I couldn’t find out where this guy had come from or anything, by the name of Campbell. Anyhow, when I retired I tried again and I struck. I told the lass this story, you know, what was going on and she was quite helpful and said he came from Mudgee. So we did some research. It was very hard. You know, it was a long time ago and people change and die and move on and so on.
LD: Yes.
PJ: Anyhow, we eventually found his three sisters and we gave them back the watch that apparently their mother had given to their brother for his twenty first birthday and so we were able to give them that.
AJ: By the way we have been back several times and I think the last time that we were in contact the people the people in Lummen because we are, we have the freedom of the city and so on.
RG: That’s one place in the world you’re never going to be arrested. You know that [laughs]
AJ: Yeah. That’s right.
PJ: The last time we went —
AJ: Well, the last time we were there they had the signs up.
PJ: But we said, ‘Very low key please. Very low key.’ So we arrived, well first of all they picked us up from the railway station in Brussels. And they described, there would be three guys and they described themselves and their description was absolutely spot on. There was a short guy, a tall guy and a fat guy. Three guys. So they picked us up and we drive into town and there was all these, “Welcome Alexander Jenkins.”
AJ: And since then —
LD: So it was lucky it was low key was it?
AJ: They have, there was a big estate.
PJ: Yeah. Well as I said your name.
AJ: That’s been formed. The principal avenue was named after me. Alexander Jenkins Strasse.
PJ: Strasse but they, you know we were.
AJ: So I’ve got my name in that part of Belgium.
PJ: And we had a reception. And all these kids. A group of kids I think they were probably eleven. Ten or eleven. Something like that. And their job was to draw the story they knew and to draw what they thought of this fellow coming out of the plane. Well, they all stood there literally and came forward and presented Alex with their, their drawings. Which was all very nice. But the only thing, you know, because I worked in the not for profit sector and I used to bring people from overseas as speakers I was very conscious of the luggage that people had to take back, but jeez you know, when we were there last time they presented Alex with a beautiful crystal vase about so high and about so big with everything engraved on it. It weighed three tonnes.
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: And how on earth we were going to get this home, but we did but, no its —
AJ: Anyway that’s the —
PJ: That’s his story. Is there anything else you want to know about?
AJ: That’s my story basically. I know I’ve rambled.
RG: No, that’s, that’s fine.
LD: Oh no. No.
AJ: But the funny parts about it are when I think the last couple of weeks, so we went down to this function which we generally go to once a year.
LD: Yes.
AJ: Of the 460. Under G for George.
PJ: The 460 under the wings —
LD: I was going to ask you to talk about your connection with G for George.
AJ: Yes. Well G for George is of course a Lancaster from 460 Squadron. One of the most weird aircraft we ever had in the squadron. Long before my time. Ninety eight trips. Combat trips. And it’s still in one piece. The C flight, there were various flights on 460 Squadron. A B C D. Twenty six aircraft actually to the squadron, six commence of the four and two spare, and C flight always has G for George, And I finished as the command of C flight of 460 Squadron. And therefore, and I’ve flown of course during the war when this one had returned to Australia. Peter Issacson and others for the, brought that plane back for the — raised funds at the time. I’ve flown G for George. G10, G11, G12 because the average life of the Lanc was only three months.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Before it would be shot down. So I’ve flown quite a few G for George’s but I’m also the ex-commander of that one, C flight which is —
PJ: The one there in Canberra is the one that flew under the Harbour Bridge.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. On that.
PJ: When Peter Issacson was flying.
AJ: They let me in to that aircraft as a special dispensation.
PJ: This was last Friday.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Last Friday. I’ve often said to Pauline and others I’d just love to, once before I go to —
PJ: I’d heard —
RG: Seriously.
AJ: To get back in to my plane.
LD: That would be a wonderful experience.
AJ: It was so lovely.
PJ: I’d heard that you could do this. So when we were talking about taking stuff down, well first of all to give something to the War Memorial isn’t that simple.
RG: No.
PJ: You’ve got to go through a terrible lot of rigmarole. They don’t want you to bring stuff there and so on. I was talking I just left a message and this young man rang me back. And I said look we’re going to be there. I said, ‘My husband is elderly. It doesn’t matter if we bring the stuff. You have a look.’ ‘No. We’re not interested. We’ve already got that.’ ‘That’s fine. But at least then we know.’ And I said, ‘While I’m calling you I understand that if you were a pilot of a Lancaster you can have a sneaky inside.’ And he said, ‘Oh I’ve never heard of that.’ Anyhow, they rang back and said there was this special thing etcetera etcetera. So, there was a message waiting for us when we got to Canberra last week and they said to ring so we rang, and they said well we’re not supposed to. We’ve had to get authority from the highest but as a very special thing and the big thing is apparently a couple of years ago there was an old pilot was up in there and he had a bad fall and severely gashed his head.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: So now it’s totally taboo.
LD: And it’s a good long way up.
PJ: Yeah. So what they had there was two delightful young men. One went in front and one went behind and they had one, of course they used those ladders, you know, those wood ladders, flat on the top.
AJ: My ambition was to get in.
PJ: Anyhow, he got there.
AJ: I knew I wouldn’t be able to get and sit in the front, in the pilots seat because it’s all wired up with dummies, but what I wanted to do, and any Lanc crew member would understand what I’m saying. I wanted to get over the main spar.
RG: Yes. Yeah.
AJ: That main spar was the continuation of the wing structure through the middle of the plane. It used to cause tremendous problems to us. Particularly if you were in combat and you needed to bail out.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Oh. It was awkward. Anyway, I got in, struggled along the plane and I came to the main spar. And I think the bloke said, ‘Do you think you can?’ Because I’ m pretty weak. ‘Do you think you can get over there?’ I said, ‘I’ll do this or die.’ And I got over it.
LD: So does it look like, I’ve seen people climb over it. It doesn’t look like there’s much room.
AJ: Oh yeah. Once I was over there I could see the cockpit and everything else.
PJ: He was a very happy chappy.
AJ: I was a happy chappy and I came back over again. Top of this great ladder and I looked down and opposite in the recess were the two aircraft. One of them the ME262.
RG: Oh yes. Of course there is.
AJ: The one that shot me down.
LD: Yes. Of course you were —
PJ: That’s right.
AJ: And the other was what we called the chase me Charlies. They were the rocket ships that used to go.
RG: ME 163.
AJ: Straight up. And the trick about them was that they had this great cannon which if you were hit with that you didn’t, what I got, blown to bits. You go, it goes up and then it levels out. It levelled out in the stream and selected a target and that was the end of the target. But when you could see it going up we thought oh my God, you know. You watch. You watch. If you see a, the thing stop and then the trail continue you breathed a sigh of relief because it’s going away from you.
RG: Yes.
AJ: Because of the jet at the back. But if it went up.
RG: And vanished.
AJ: And there was darkness it was. ‘Oh my God.’
RG: Coming towards.
AJ: It’s coming to us.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: So those two planes. I looked down and the blokes with me knew what I was thinking.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I said, ‘Yeah, I remember those two,’
PJ: Are you going to see David Griffin?
RG: No. We haven’t been able to get back in contact with him. I’ve tried ringing all week.
LD: We did want to try and see him.
RG: And his phone’s been ringing out. He may have gone away. I’m not too sure.
PJ: He’s got a daughter here. David is ninety five or ninety six.
RG: Yeah. So ninety six. Yeah.
AJ: Very weak.
LD: We were kind of a bit concerned that the phone just kept —
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Well do you want me to ring a friend who is quite close to them. Literally living close but they have a lot to do with David. He also was a headmaster of a school but David was the headmaster of Orange High. But if you like I can just find out if they know whether he’s there.
RG: That would be nice Pauline. Yeah. Because we thought what we might do is we’ve got his address. We might just pop around because I said we’d come today.
PJ: Yeah.
RG: We hadn’t organised a time And I haven’t been able to do that, so I thought we’d pop in and say look we’re —
PJ: His daughter’s here. You had no trouble with the Belubula River. There was a flood. Did you come down through, down it.
RG: No. It’s up but it was no trouble though.
PJ: And where is it in Cowra that you like to stay?
RG: There’s a — you know where the airport is? And then the Grenfell Road. The road that just goes up and up
PJ: Oh yes. Yes.
RG: Well just before Grenfell Road there’s a little road called Back Creek Road that goes back the other way.
PJ: Yeah. Back by the racecourse or whatever it is. Is there a racecourse out there? Yeah.
LD: Yes. There is.
RG: Is there? Oh. As you go down Back Creek Road there’s through a bunch of vineyards and there’s a little vineyard down there.
PJ: Oh yeah.
RG: And there’s a little cottage in the vineyard right up against the creek which is now just about running a banker.
PJ: That’s right.
RG: And it’s beautiful. It’s just a quiet little spot.
PJ: I went, I went to boarding school in Cowra, so —
RG: Oh ok.
AJ: Well, that’s been a rambling thing. I’m sorry.
RG: Can I just ask you. You said something and I’ve kind of lost context of what but it was to do with jinx. That’s right. The second dickie runs, and the second dickie runs , and you said you hated them because the jinx thing. Did you have a talisman or a token or anything that you — ?
AJ: No. I did not and a lot of guys, you’re quite right, a lot of guys swore by them. See it’s strange you know. You were a very old man at twenty five in Bomber Command.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Very few guys older than twenty five. It was a business for very young and hopefully very fit. Yes, we were very fit. Even though we drank like fish. The one reason I have never smoked in my life I can put down to my service as a Lancaster bomber bloke because we drank, naturally. And we all, we had very strict rules though. We used to police ourselves. We didn’t need the service police who used to be around for all sorts of reasons on a squadron.
RG: Yeah. I know.
AJ: They used to pick up every now and then. Spies and so on.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And we drank, and I found that if I had a cigarette then nothing would happen on the ground but as soon as I used to have to go on to the oxygen mask which is at eight thousand feet, or —
LD: Yes.
AJ: I’d give the command to, ‘Masks on.’ I’d become violently ill. Now, if you’ve got to sit in the pilot’s seat strapped in, its bad enough to have a wee because you couldn’t get out.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And the poor bomb aimer, you used to have to butter him up because he used to carry a peach tin or urine bucket they called it and you’d have to struggle and have a widdle if you could into there. And he’s down there and you’re up so sometimes a splash [laughs]
LD: He’d want you flying straight and level while you did that.
AJ: That’s one thing. But to be absolutely sick in your oxygen mask.
LD: Yeah.
LD: Which you couldn’t take off.
LD: Yes. Yes.
AJ: And spend eight, ten hours.
LD: Oh God.
AJ: So naturally I never smoked.
LD: No.
And it’s served me so well in my life.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Being a non-smoker.
RG: Yeah. I agree. I was smoker.
AJ: I wouldn’t say that I was a non-drinker but I’ve cut that down now, obviously on medical advice to just red wine.
PJ: They don’t, they don’t, haven’t heard that he was going away or anything but he’s terribly deaf so —
RG: He may just have not heard the phone. Yeah.
PJ: So I’ll give you the address.
RG: I’ve got that. I’ve got his address.
PJ: Got it. 90 Gardener Road.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: You know Gardener Road.
RG: Oh we use the sat nav. It’ll get us there.
PJ: So I suggest you go and knock on his door.
RG: Yeah. That’s what we thought we’d do because he said he’d written a book which has never been published.
PJ: Oh yes.
RG: He’s got the manuscript and Lucie checked. Because I wrote a book about a friend of mine’s father who was in the 2nd machine gun, 1st Machine Gun Battalion during the war.
PJ: Oh yes.
RG: So, and it’s just a little personal thing for her.
PJ: Yeah.
RG: But Lucy checked with the National Library and they said yes, they’d be happy to take a copy of that.
PJ: Oh yeah.
RG: And a copy of David’s if it’s, providing it’s typed. And if not, we can do that for him if he wants.
AJ: Because he’s an English fellow who was in the RAF.
PJ: But he’s, he’s very deaf. He almost yells. He has good days and bad days. Some days he’s not terribly with it and sometimes he’s fine.
RG: When I called him, you know, he said, ‘Oh look I don’t know.’ He said, ‘I’ve done a few of these interviews I don’t think I could contribute any more,’ and then an hour and a half later I was still trying to get off the phone [laughs]
AJ: [laughs] Yeah.
PJ: He’s a bit of a hoot you know. He comes. Well the people I’ve just spoken to, Bill he won’t wear — because he’s got a service medal but he did, because he didn’t, he was too young. Bill is just ninety. He was too young to actually, he was in the air force, but never got anywhere.
RG: Didn’t go on ops. Yeah.
PJ: He said, ‘I’m too embarrassed to wear the medal I’ve got.’ Whereas David comes, and he has every conceivable pin that he’s ever got, and said. Well the Russians do.
RG: Yeah. Or the Americans. Oh yeah.
PJ: All the bits and pieces. But no, Actually one of my nephews was in the navy. He went through [unclear]
RG: What was his name, just for interest sake?
LD: My brother was at [unclear]
PJ: Was he?
LD: Yes.
PJ: Well me nephew is now, because he is exactly twenty years younger than me. So, we share a birthday so he must be sixty three. But —
RG: Well that’s almost my age. What was his name. We were in at the same time.
PJ: Mark Dowd.
RG: Do you know what he did?
PJ: Yes. He was a diver.
RG: Oh I didn’t know any divers really. Yeah.
PJ: And it was interesting. It was very interesting because you know there was something like twenty of them in this diving class for starters. So I think there was twenty one or something finished.
RG: Very few get through.
PJ: They were either psychologically unsuited. Physically unsuited. There were a few deaths because of accidents and so on but the navy did Mark a great service because he was [unclear] whatever he was. He went to Vietnam. I think they had to make sure there were no mines. They had to clear.
RG: Under the ships.
PJ: Under on the ships and so on. But then he came back and started his own diving business. I don’t mean sort of leisure. It’s like —
RG: Professional diving.
PJ: Cables and this sort of thing. Dams.
RG: They were very well trained. The navy divers were very extremely well trained.
PJ: I’d say Mark has done very well. The navy did him a big favour but no, so his two sons. Neither went into the navy. One’s an engineer. The other one is doing something. I think science at CSU so, not CSU ANU, in Canberra. Alright. Ok.
LD: Just a couple of really short things.
AJ: Yes, love.
LD: One is do you know what a command bullseye is?
AJ: A command.
LD: A command bullseye.
AJ: Command bullseye.
LD: That’s in the diary that I have and it’s from the context it seems to me like it’s the, it’s like the kind of last exercise you do at the OTU before you go on ops. So, you know ,you go out, you fly at night. But I just haven’t actually been able to find the term anywhere.
RG: [unclear] crew, they did, “Did their command bullseye today” was pretty all what they said and they went to London.
LD: Yeah, they went to London.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: They did it over London. But other crews we’ve heard of doing it over France as well.
AJ: No. I don’t think I came across that.
LD: It’s alright. I know It could have even been a local term.
RG: Well Ken was a little, a fraction before you. he went down in December ‘43 and I noticed that terms and practices and things came and went.
AJ: Oh they sure did.
RG: Yeah. There was no consistency.
AJ: I went to Lindholme — and in the final set up. Yeah. Command bullseye. No.
LD: No. That’s fine.
RG: Might have been a local.
LD: Yeah. And just the other thing. I don’t know how you would feel about this but I, in Katoomba I met a man who was busking. He had the most beautiful voice. This baritone and he was busking in a shopping centre. And he was so well-presented. Anyway, I got to talking to him and he was from Dresden.
AJ: Oh dear. Came from Dresden.
LD: Yeah.
RG: Yes.
LD: He was born and grew up Dresden. Middle aged man.
AJ: Oh dear.
LD: And he busks as a professional and he said he busks in Dresden. And he said he goes to the old city and he sings to the old people. And I thought that was really lovely that —
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
LD: You know, that he, you know this is his contribution.
PJ: Well the world moves on. I mean this is —
AJ: I have a horror.
LD: No. No. I mean he sings to the people.
PJ: Yes.
AJ: In relation to Dresden no man who bombed Dresden will, he will never be the same because it was such an awful set up in execution that, you know it scarred any conscience. And the worst thing about it was that it was specifically ordered by Winston Churchill to impress Stalin. And when the British public quite rightly revolted in revulsion even in the wartime and admittedly there was some technical reasons why Dresden had to be bombed because they were concentrating German troops and so on there. But Churchill just wiped his hands. He said, ‘I never.’ He blamed Sir Arthur Harris. Better known as Butch Harris. Sir Arthur Harris never, was never recognised except just before his death. And above all Churchill was so furious with the outcry that in blaming Sir Arthur he never forgot that Bomber Command, in his view needed to be brought to heel. And in that way, I don’t know if you know that story that when the great Victory Parade was organised Bomber Command was the only command refused permission to march in the Victory Parade, and yet Bomber Command was the only service for quite a while that was able to take the —
RG: To Germany. Yeah.
AJ: Oh God. We have the clasp. Have you ever seen that clasp that was awarded?
RG: No. No. I haven’t. No.
AJ: I’ll show you. The clasp was for those in Bomber Command.
PJ: Do you want your medal?
AJ: Yeah. Just the main medal because the other one hasn’t got it.
PJ: It’s not exactly a big deal.
AJ: The British government, queen and parliament eighteen months ago passed a motion of condolence and regret and apology to Bomber Command for the insult delivered to us in the peace. The processions etcetera and by command of the government and the queen a special clasp, a gold clasp was awarded to those of us who served in Bomber Command. When the papers came here and to my colleagues and so on almost to a man, here in Australia we initially refused. In fact I was ready —
PJ: That’s all it is. That’s the bar.
RG: Bomber Command.
AJ: Ready to rip it up. Put it in the application envelope and send it back.
RG: Send it back.
AJ: You know, with the words, ‘Get stuffed,’ but I had second thoughts.
PJ: It was interesting, like last Friday we were at this thing and there’s all these young people there.
RG: It is late but it’s the least they can do now.
PJ: Twenty six or something but every time they go away they get a medal.
RG: It is recognition finally isn’t it? It’s late and it’s long overdue but —
PJ: Always. Every one’s is a different tour of duty, so.
LD: Yeah.
AJ: They’re campaign medals.
PJ: They’ll have five or six medals and they’re about twenty five and, ‘Where did you get all them?’ ‘Oh well, you know I’ve been to Afghanistan. I’ve been to Iraq.’ Or something. But anyhow.
RG: Yeah. There is that.
PJ: Did you know, I’m trying to think? What’s, what’s the naval bloke here. Harris, Harris?
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: Harris.
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: His wife’s name is —
AJ: I can’t remember.
PJ: He was actually the naval attaché to the [unclear] of Paris. What’s his name? I saw him on Anzac Day. Kim. And he’d be older than you.
AJ: Not many. Not many people.
PJ: I was one of eight. And there was a boy, then six girls and then a boy. So the three youngest girls that’s me, my sister. Monica and my sister Dot. We’re the only survivors. But we did very well because until the last two years. My younger brother died, I don’t know probably fifteen, twenty years ago. And my elder sister died when she was only about fifty one but the rest of them, they’ve all been well in to their eighties. I’m eighty three. The next one’s eighty four and the next one’s eighty five.
AJ: You don’t look eighty-three.
PJ: Well thank you. In a good light.
AJ: Now I’m getting nice.
RG: Indeed. Alex. One other question I’d like to ask. VE Day. What was —
AJ: VE day.
RG: Do you have any remembrance of that? Do you remember it?
AJ: Yes. Yes and no. VE day the crew and I were in London. Naturally. I think we all descended on it, and I was actually, I’d been somewhere around Australia House in the morning, early. And they had up on the thing a little notice that guys from certain squadrons and so on represent for, and they had a sort of a bus, open topped bus and I put my name down for 460. I was the one who was chosen to sit on the bus and we got very close, you know, to the royal family. Waving away. And the celebrations though. The Aussies had a number of bars whose names now I forget but we, we descended on the bar in this particular place and we’d actually used the time and time again with the darts that they had for the dart board. We, after a celebration or a particular bomb raid that had gone well and, you know we were proud of it we’d put a few details and twing.
RG: Threw them up on the ceiling.
AJ: Anyway, we decided that they should come down.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And so we got ladders and things and I remember being fully inebriated trying to get up these ladders to pull darts out of the roof.
PJ: It’s a wonder you survived all the things you got up to.
AJ: Well, I mean basically we were young and stupid.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Yeah. So VE day was quite a day.
RG: I had to ask because the chap in Canberra Arthur Louden we said to him you know where you on VE day when the war ended. He said I was in bed with the wife up in Scotland. Someone knocked on the door and said, ‘The war’s over.’ I thought, good. And went back to bed again.
AJ: Oh dear that last raid that our squadron was involved in on Berchtesgaden. Hitler’s retreat. We blew the side off the bloody mountain. 460 Squadron was involved in it. It was Anzac Day. I remember that. Anzac Day they blew the side off the bloody mountain. When Pauline and I went back there I remember somewhere. We looked across, ‘I blew the side off that mountain’.
LD: ‘See that landslip there. I did that.’ Wow.
PJ: It’s interesting. I think it’s a shame that more, whilst still there’s people like Alex around that school kids aren’t given more information about the Second World War.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: At the present time of course it’s a hundred years —
AJ: That’s a moot question.
PJ: Yeah. But at the present time it’s all a hundred years of course of the First World War and so on.
AJ: The First World War.
PJ: But they don’t get a lot of indigenous history in school but very little about the Second World War.
AJ: Yeah. It is a shame. I’m ambivalent about that.
PJ: You know it’s a bit like —
AJ: I don’t know whether it’s good or not.
PJ: I don’t know if you have children, grandchildren or whatever, but, you know kids today like I said to me granddaughter who will turn up in a few minutes, ‘What are you going to do this year?’ You know. She said, ‘Well, grandma, I can’t decide whether I’ll go to Japan or Italy again this year.’ She went to Italy last year. But she’s never been to Cooper’s Creek or Cameron’s Corner or out in to the outback of Australia or where the various explorers went or even around here which was Mitchell’s territory. You know, she knew nothing about it. I do think it’s a shame. I think there should be more of, yes ok the indigenous. My next-door neighbour, his daughter married an indigenous, and. I keep saying, ‘Don’t blame me I, my I had three Italian and one French grandparent so it’s nothing to do with me,’ but —
LD: It’s a question of getting the whole story isn’t it?
PJ: But how do they ever give you the whole story?
LD: And not, you know, eschewed to one side.
PJ: But we’ll become so politically correct.
LD: Yes.
PJ: That it’s ridiculous and —
LD: My daughter went to Munich.
PJ: Oh yes.
LD: Last year. A couple of years ago. Whenever it was, Brother in law was married in Norway so they did all that. And she came back, and she said, ‘Oh mum. Munich’s beautiful.’ And then she said to me, ‘Did you know it was bombed during the war?’ I thought, ‘Hello.’ Would you like to tell? I could tell you, ‘I could tell you the name of people who did this if you like Polly.’
PJ: It’s very interesting.
LD: And I was just gobsmacked that my daughter who I thought was.
PJ: Yeah. But they don’t.
LD: She’s not a silly girl.
PJ: No. But it’s not, it’s not a part of their scene. It’s a bit like oh well, you know once again I’m not indigenous bashing but alright so the indigenous were here. So Captain Cook arrived so they established colonies etcetera, etcetera [unclear] I think was the first bod that arrived up on the West Australian coast, but yeah. Like, who’s going to grab England? Who are you going to go back to? The Gauls?
RG: Well exactly yeah. Yeah.
PJ: Or France or anywhere.
RG: I’ve got, I’ve got a Norwegian skin problem. So where did my family come? We’re from the north of England, ok.
AJ: Oh yeah.
RG: Originally.
LD: With the Vikings.
PJ: So it’s crazy you know.
RG: Yeah.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AJenkinsAE160709
Title
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Interview with Alexander Elliott Jenkins
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:00:55 audio recording
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Creator
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Rob Gray
Date
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2016-07-09
Description
An account of the resource
Alexander Elliott Jenkins grew up in Melbourne, Australia and joined the Air Force aged eighteen. He flew operations as a pilot with 460 Squadron from RAF Binbrook. His aircraft was shot down by a Me 262 over occupied Belgium.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Belgium
Great Britain
Germany
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1944
1945
Contributor
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Julie Williams
460 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
Cook’s tour
final resting place
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Me 262
memorial
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
pilot
RAF Binbrook
shot down
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8746/PGoodmanLS1501.2.jpg
4d6c119b0afafd239cd1395cc73a9296
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8746/AGoodmanLS160407.1.mp3
7215a8a462ca34501fb64632597de4b4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Goodman, Benny
Lawrence Seymour Goodman
L S Goodman
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Goodman, LS
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Squadron Leader Lawrence 'Benny' Goodman (1920 - 2021, 1382530, 123893 Royal Air Force) and a memoir covering his activities from 1939 to 1945. He flew 30 operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Benny Goodman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today we’re in Bracknell talking to Benny Goodman about his experiences in the RAF and today is the 7th of April 2016 and Benny is going to start off with his earliest recollections going through to what he did after the war. So what do you remember first Benny?
LBSG: When the war broke out you mean?
CB: No. When you, your earliest recollections of life.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: In the family.
LBSG: We lived, we’re Londoners from a long way back and I remember I was born in Maida Vale and lived there for the first five or six years of my life and then we moved to Hampstead and we lived there and we were still there when the war broke out.
CB: Keep going.
LBSG: Yes. I was -
CB: So you went to school locally.
LBSG: No.
CB: Right.
LBSG: I was a boarder. I was away at school.
CB: Where were you at school?
LBSG: In Herne Bay.
CB: In Herne Bay.
LBSG: Herne Bay College. Yes.
CB: Right. And if you just keep going on what you -
LBSG: Well, I left, yes, because my father -
CB: So -
LBSG: Had, I’ll keep going, an interest in an electrical engineering factory in Birmingham. It was considered that I should go up there and study at night and work during the day in the factory. I did this and found it fairly hard going doing, doing both things because there was no, very little free time. However, in September 1939 we all listened to a broadcast by the prime minister who told us that we were at war with Germany and so that of course made quite a difference to me. I decided to contact my parents. I was about a hundred miles from London at the time and discuss with my father what I wanted to do. I was only eight/nineteen, eighteen or nineteen at the time. It was agreed that I would go home and I decided I wanted to join the RAF. My father backed me up. My mother was horrified but in the end I went to a recruiting office at, in Brent, North London. It was the nearest RAF one and did all the necessary things to make sure that I would get in, get in to the RAF. Of course I said I wanted to be a pilot. And the officer, it was a flying officer who interviewed me raised his eyebrows. I didn’t really realise what that meant and I noticed he’d put down on the form that he was filling in for me ACH ACH/GD and I thought that meant that I was definitely going to start training as a pilot immediately. Of course nothing could be further from the truth. In due course I went for a general medical and when I passed that I was sent across to the RAF section to have an air crew medical which I passed and then we were, we had to be attested as we were volunteers and so we all had a little ceremony within the medical centre. About twenty of us took the oath of allegiance to the king and the crown and all the rest of it. I was then sent on leave for a little while, a few weeks, and got my call up papers and I thought this is it. I’m going to be a pilot in two weeks. Didn’t quite turn out like that. I went to Cardington, kitted out and we did a bit of marching which wasn’t really on the agenda. We didn’t realise we were there until we were posted and eventually, after about ten days we packed our kit bags and were marched off to a railway station and of course nobody had any idea where we were going but we ended up in Bridgenorth and we, and it was snowy, it was snowing, I beg your pardon and the roads were quite icy but we had to march up the hill from the station at Bridgnorth to Bridgenorth RAF camp and it was quite slippery but we all got to the top and we were all very wet behind the ears there’s no doubt about it. We had a flight sergeant barking at us and we ended up in a hut, about twenty of us, well maybe fifteen in a hut and there we went through six weeks of square bashing of every sort, type and description you could imagine. There was a corporal to every hut and he had a bunk to himself in the hut which was, part of our duty was to sweep his bunk out every day and make the bed and we did that of course. We had to. And we had various other delightful jobs as you can imagine. I can remember spending I think a week in the cookhouse peeling potatoes which didn’t impress me very much with, as you can imagine. However, we eventually got a posting, I and another chap and we were told we would be going to RAF Abingdon and we knew that was a straight through course on Whitleys. By straight through I mean you did ground school, you flew a Tiger Moth, and then an Anson and then a Whitley. So we had every hope that we were going to be on that course. There was no reason to suppose that we wouldn’t be. Things turned out rather differently. Instead of that we were sent to a dugout on the airfield and there was a nissen hut there with six beds in it. No, no sheets, no pillow cases, of course. Just blankets that didn’t smell very good and the latrine, latrines had to be dug out and there we lived for about six months and all thoughts of being pilots, we had become ground gunners. We didn’t know it until, until we had to learn all about ground gunning and how to take to pieces a cow gun, that’s a Coventry ordinance work gun, a Lewis watercool gun and so on and we did that pretty well because we were, we had to do it day and night we would, and the only part I remember, of course we had to name every part we, we’d handled but the only part name I can remember was the rear sear retainer keeper and I cannot tell you why I remember it nor do I really remember where it fitted. However, we were there for about six months and we were both quite fed up with it because it was four hours on and two hours off during the day and at night we had to patrol around the airfield every night and challenge anybody who was walking there. Well, we had to challenge, ask for the password and if we didn’t get the right answer we were supposed to arrest them. However, there was no option, we did have to challenge them because the station duty officer and the warrant officer and the orderly officer all at various times would come around with a couple of NCOs and if we didn’t challenge them we were in trouble and we challenged many more airmen and it was winter and they were trying to find their way in the blackout to a Whitley they were working on with their tool bag in one hand and to have some idiot airman like me challenge them saying, ‘Stop. Who goes there,’ And believe me we used to get some fruity juicy answers. We never got a password from them [laughs]. It would be more, would have been more than our life was worth if we’d really tried to try to stop them. I mean it would have been ridiculous. We could, we could see that. And the fear at the time when I was a ground gunner was that the Germans would invade by air at dawn. So at dawn we had to march around the perimeter track with, we always had, by the way one bullet up the spout. That’s one loaded in the, ready for firing but the safety catch was on and we marched around the perimeter track and for some reason we had to wear oxygen, I beg your pardon, gas masks. I don’t know why because if the Germans were dropping paratroops I can’t believe they were going to drop with gasmasks on. However, that was the order so that was it. Our food was brought out in hay boxes. Breakfast, lunch and a sort of tea, dinner and of course as warm as the hay boxes, hay boxes may have been by the time they got around to us on the other side of the airfield in a dugout it wasn’t very warm. But it is extraordinary, you get used to everything and after about three or four months this other chap and I had given up all hopes of becoming pilots or training and in our off duty by the way, we had a off duty half day and if we were lucky occasionally we’d get a pass in to the, go and walk into the local town, in Abingdon but if you could get past the SPs because you went to go, if you went to go out they had to inspect every inch of you and if they didn’t quite like the way your tie was tied or one button didn’t look properly shined then you were sent back and told to come back again so sometimes you never really got your half day off. I don’t know, we got used to it, it’s extraordinary and because we were very young I don’t think we took, I don’t think we got too, took too much umbridge about it and as, I think I’ve just said this other chap and I had given up any idea of being trained as pilots. We thought here we are and here we are going to stay but one day we were sent for and we wondered what we’d done but we were told we were going on a pilot’s course and we couldn’t believe it. It wasn’t at RAF Abingdon because the Whitley course that we saw was the last one that they, the straight through course was the last one and so we never had any hope of getting on that and we, I was sent to, this chap and I separated unfortunately. We’d become good friends by that time but we were separated and I went to a reception centre at Stratford on Avon. Now remember I’d been a ground gunner for six months and my uniform, to say the least, was tatty because we spent day and night in the, well, at night, walking around but days in the gun pit and sometimes we had, when we were off we, it wasn’t, we couldn’t get undressed, we slept in it. I mean everybody did and of course I looked really tatty and crumpled. There was no doubt about that. I walked in to the orderly room in the reception area at Stratford on Avon and somebody barked, ‘Airman you’re on a charge.’ And I looked around. I want to interrupt.
CB: Right.
LBSG: I want to interrupt.
CB: Oh you do. Right.
[machine pause]
LBSG: Am I? Are you ready? ‘Airman. You’re on a charge,’ and I looked around and there was nobody else, well there were people sitting there and working but and I thought, I think he means me. [laughs] So I got up to the desk and said, ‘Yes sergeant, reporting in.’ He said, ‘You’re on a charge airman’. And I said, well I thought it was me so I, ‘You are a disgrace to the service. Look at you.’ And I probably was because my uniform had been slept in and it was probably a bit muddy. I cleaned it as much as I could but you only had one uniform, two shirts, two pairs of socks and I think two pairs of underpants and that’s all we owned in life and no, certainly no other battle dress or cap and I tried to explain to him what I’d been and why I looked that way and he wasn’t in the least interested. He said, ‘You’re a disgrace to the service. You should have kept yourself in better condition.’ Something like that. In better condition. So I was, the next morning, I was, my feet hadn’t touched the ground there really. The next morning I was marched into the OCs office, he was a flying officer and he read the charge, he said, ‘What about this, Goodman?’ And I said, ‘Well sir what I’ve said is true. I’ve slept in the uniform in gun pits and all the rest of it and we don’t have another uniform to wear and that’s why it looks this way.’ He said, Well I do appreciate it but I’m afraid,’ he had to, obviously had to say this, ‘My sergeant is correct and you look very scruffy,’ and so on and so. I got seven days jankers but I wasn’t offered another uniform or another cap or anything so I still walked about. Anyhow, I was there for not very long fortunately. A week or ten days I think and I was posted to, to ITW at Cambridge. And this was really the beginning of the training for, to be a pilot and we had six weeks of intensive ground school and most of us passed out. One or two chaps failed and I felt jolly sorry for them because they had tried hard but I got through and by this time my friend, I think I’ve said this already, had separated. He’d gone somewhere else. I got through and really I’m afraid that’s what interested me most and I was sent to number 17 AFTS at Peterborough and did about forty eight or fifty hours flying on a Tiger Moth and when it was over I was sent for. I’m afraid I’ve always thought, the first thing that comes into my head, what have I done wrong because as an airmen there’s never any good news. If you are sent for there’s usually something wrong. And the flight commander who was a flight lieutenant said to me, ‘You’ve been posted to RAF Woodley,’ which was the Miles factory, the Miles, where they made the Magister, and all, the Martinet and all the rest of them and, ‘You’re going to be an instructor.’ And I thought I don’t want to be an instructor. I’ve only just learned to fly the Tiger Moth. So I went there and we flew Magisters and they of course had brakes and flaps which I’d never seen before in my life and I was supposed to be training as an instructor. Anyhow, I did my, I really didn’t want to be one but I was there and then when I finished there I was posted to, I was going sorry, I was going to Clyffe Pypard, I think it was, as a holding unit. Ok.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I went to Clyffe Pypard as a holding unit and from there we were posted to Canada and I was told I was going to, I think it was 33 SFTS at Carberry and I thought I was going to be instructor but I wasn’t. I was going to learn to fly twin engine aircraft. Ansons. And that for me, I’d only flown these very light aircraft and for me that was a real, absolutely really big step up and so I did the Anson course and night flying was included. The first time I’d ever done that and I must say I take my hat off to the instructor who was with me for the first night circuit because I was all over the sky. We weren’t taught instrument flying by the way, before, they, so I was looking at the instruments at night for the first time, the artificial horizon and all the rest of it never having really relied on them in my day training so for the first circuit I was all over the place, I really was, up and down and the chap just sat there. The instructor. He didn’t say a word and I thought this can’t be right but I managed a circuit of some sort and we came in on the approach and he gave me a couple of hints on the approach. Of course although I’d done quite a bit of flying on the Anson by this time in the day to do it first time at night first time you’d ever flown at night was quite different. Anyhow, I made some sort of a landing and he said, ‘Well yes, ok you’ll be on the, you’ll be flying tomorrow. Night. And if you improve a bit you can go solo,’ and the thought of that terrified me [laughs] I thought I’ve hardly had real control of the aircraft all the time and if the chap hadn’t, the instructor hadn’t been sitting next to me I think I might have given up but I knew he was there if I made any mistakes. Anyhow, we did a few circuits and bumps and he said, ‘You can go solo,’ and again the thought terrified me but he, he sent me solo and I think we did, I did one circuit and bump and came in and he said, ‘Ok Goodman. That’s fine. And you’ll be on the roster tomorrow night, on the duty, you’ll be flying tomorrow night,’ and you’ll do whatever else it was and that’s, ‘You’re well forward now on your completed training.’ And we had to do three cross countries as navigator because in those days when Hampdens were still flying and Wellingtons, I think Whitleys had stopped by then but Hampdens certainly were flying and Wellingtons were. The first fifteen trips when you were on an operational squadron was usually, not always, flown as a navigator, by the chap who was a pilot. I suppose they didn’t, in those days, have enough. I don’t know why but anyhow I think that was part of the pre-war influence. I don’t know. There were observers but I’m not sure in those days how fully trained as navigators they were. Please forgive me all you people who wear O’s because they were highly distinguished and my own bomb aimer was an observer and he used to put me in my place [laughs] that is when I got on the squadron, in 617, yeah. So I passed there and then I thought well I am on my way back now surely. Not a bit of it. I was sent to RAF Kingston, Ontario as an instructor but horrifyingly I was going to instruct acting leading naval airmen. Now, I didn’t have a clue about landing on, or jinking after take-off or dive bombing or any of the things they were being trained for so the flight commander was, they were all experienced chaps except me. I’d never been on ops and during the war that was really a black mark whether you could help it or not. If you hadn’t done an operational tour not even the students looked up to you really. However, there it was and we, one of the, we had a fleet air arm chap and one or two other seasoned pilots in the flight and of course the flight commander and he took me up and it was a Harvard by the way. An important point. It was Harvards. Now, I’d never flown an aircraft with a VP prop and a retractable undercarriage. The Anson was the nearest I ever got and we had to wind the undercarriage up so you didn’t wind it up unless you were doing a cross country so it was a whole new world to me and he took me up and he said, ‘Well you’re an instructor and that’s the end of it but you’re going to learn to fly this,’ and after about an hour and a half again he shook me to the core, he said, ‘Ok you can go solo.’ Do this, that and the other and, ‘I’ll be watching you.’ ‘Yes you will.’ And come in and we’ll have a talk. So I took this mighty beast off, this Harvard, which was a mighty beast to me. It was a beautiful aeroplane actually. I loved flying it when I got used to it. It was fully aerobatic which was wonderful and for me it had lots of ergs. Bags of power. And so I went solo and then he took me up a couple of times and said, ‘Right. You don’t know anything about naval training but you know about, you’re an instructor so I will show you you’re, the first lesson you’ll do and then you’ll go up and do it and then the second lesson, and so on.’ And so I progressed through the syllabus and by the time I left there I was teaching them about dive bombing and jinking after take-off. Everything you would get court martialled for in the RAF but of course it was the royal, it was the Fleet Air Arm and this is what they were being taught to do. And I had a thoroughly good time. I was a pilot officer. There was no room for me in the mess so I lived in digs and I bought a car. It was a, with a dickie seat. That is, it was a two seater but it had a flap you could open at the back and two people could sit inside, outside as it were but it was wonderful. I had a car of my own. I was only twenty one. I was living in digs. And I was a flying instructor in the air force. I thought I was dreaming actually. I did. Well I had a thoroughly good time of course there’s no doubt about that when I was doing it and we were then, myself and another few chaps who’d got no operational experience were posted back to the UK to go on ops. So we went back and we went to a holding unit in Bournemouth. Oh by the way on the way back, on my first trip back, twenty four hours out we were torpedoed. Fortunately, an American destroyer took most of the torpedo, it blew up with a lot of lives lost but we got damaged. We were going around in circ, the rudder was done. We had no rudder at all and other damage was done but when they had got it all fixed up we were going around in the Atlantic at that night in circles because there was no steering gear and we all thought he’s going to come back and finish us off, that U-boat but he must have run out of torpedoes. I can think of no other reason for him not sinking us. I really can’t. So we went back to Halifax, Nova Scotia and then we were put on a train which we stayed on for five days. Our food was supplied and it was just the ordinary compartment. When we all wanted to clean our teeth just the ordinary passenger way, we would go and have a pee or whatever, we would go to the lavatory or there was a wash basin so we took it in turns to clean our teeth and wash ourselves but nothing like a shower or anything like that and food was given to us and we went all the way from Halifax, Nova Scotia by train to New York. I think it took five days and there we embarked, [paused] I’ve left something out, did I say we were torpedoed?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And there we embarked on the Queen Mary and we were the only, there weren’t many of us, about a dozen I think, there was a, the OC troops was an American officer, a colonel and all the troops apart from us were Americans and so we were very much in the minority on a British ship and I can remember before we sailed the OC troops called us all together in one of the big halls that the Queen Mary had obviously and there were seats there and all of us, all the officers together and he said, ‘I want you to remember this. You’re officers and if anything happens, if we’re torpedoed you will be the last to leave.’ And the other few RAF chaps and myself looked at each other because we’d just been torpedoed [laughs] and we didn’t think much of that statement frankly but we got back safely and of course we had good food, being American and we were put through quite a rigorous, I remember when we arrived on board, a rigorous American medical. The fact that we’d got our RAF medicals didn’t mean a thing to them. We had a thorough, I don’t know whether it was army, yes American army medical I suppose and they passed us fit. I often wonder what they would have done if they hadn’t passed us fit. We were, by that time we were sailing, I mean, but anyhow they passed us fit and we got back safely to the UK. I hadn’t got, I omitted to say this before, but I hadn’t got any luggage of any sort. I just had my shaving kit and I hadn’t even got my logbooks or anything. They were all in my trunk which presumed were ruined and nobody knows what happened. They didn’t know whether they’d floated out or anything and so when I got there they asked me how many flying hours I’d got. I said well you’ll have to take my word for it but I can remember them roughly and I wrote them down in my new logbook and I went to, when we got back I went to Spitalgate, Grantham for what was called a UK, sorry -
CB: It’s ok.
LBSG: Can you switch off?
CB: Yeah.
[machine paused]
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Ok. So start again.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Or continue. Yeah. So you got back yeah. When you got back.
LBSG: When I got back we were sent eventually to RAF Spitalgate which was Grantham for an acclimatisation course which meant we had to learn to fly without any lights and without any help from anywhere. You couldn’t call up, apart from at night you had a system called darkie and if you really got lost at night then you called up darkie. Switch off.
[machine paused]
LBSG: And -
CB: No. No. No. No. So when you were lost you had to do a call sign and that said?
LBSG: Did I mention night flying or what?
CB: This is night flying isn’t it? Yes.
LBSG: Yes. Could I -
CB: So say it. Go on.
LBSG: Night flying of course was rather different in the UK because there were no lights, no aids. Scattered around the country there were, not very many, a few master beacons. They flashed red symbols, I beg your pardon, Morse code characters and if you were lucky, if you were lost at night, you might see one of these but there weren’t many in the whole country but you had to do this cross country at night in Oxfords with just a ground wireless op in the back in case you got lost. He would try to get a QDM to somewhere. And I always felt very sorry for these wireless men because they weren’t aircrew. They were ground crew and they must have hated it. Anyhow, most of us managed to do, get through this without any trouble and I was sent to, to Market, Market Harborough I think it was, Market Harborough to do a Wellington, Wellington OCU and across to and began my flying on Wellington 1Cs at Saltby which was the, which was the -
CB: The OTU.
LBSG: N. It was part of the [pause] satellite.
CB: Oh yes.
LBSG: Satellite for Market Harborough. Unfortunately I fell ill and I was sent to a hospital, RAF Wroughton, and didn’t get my full flying category back for some time. I lost my crew of course. They went on flying with somebody else and then when I did get a flying category I had to, I couldn’t go straight for training. The powers that be insisted I got some flying in so I was sent to an OTU to fly the Martinet which did dummy air attacks on, rather which did air, dummy air attacks on Wellingtons for the training, to train air gunners, would-be air gunners. I made a mess of that.
CB: That’s ok. That’s fine.
LBSG: To train would-be air gunners.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: In addition to that I did the drogue towing when they had live air to air firing which never made me very comfortable because they were all UT, Under Training that is and not qualified. Whilst there I met an observer who’d also been grounded and we struck up a great friendship and when the time came for us both to get our A1G1, that is the full flying category back we got it together fortunately and we asked if we could be posted together and for some, and it was granted which was quite unusual and then we were sent to, we were sent to an RAF station and pitched in amongst a lot of other air crew and there you walked around and spoke to people and believe it or not that’s how you chose your crew. True. From there we went to -
CB: So this was at the OTU.
LBSG: OTU yes. Did I say I’d been in hospital? I did, I think.
CB: You did.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And your OTU was Silverstone.
LBSG: Yes. That’s right. From there we went to OTU at Silverstone and thence to the Lanc Finishing School at Syerston. Syerston or Syston?
CB: Syerston.
LBSG: Syerston yeah. At the end of the course I was sent for by the flight commander and the whole crew said to me, ‘What the hell have you done now, Benny?’ And I said, ‘Well I can think of nothing,’ and they all laughed and said, ‘Oh yeah.’ Of course, they didn’t believe me, of course. Anyhow, I went in and I was horrified when I went in. There was the flight commander, wing commander flying and two or three other officers, squadron leaders and a wing, I think a wing commander and I thought I really am in trouble this time and I couldn’t think of anything I’d done, for a change, that merited this show of high, high class brass as it were. Anyhow, they asked me a few questions and I realised that this had, it couldn’t be to do with something I’d done wrong and then suddenly one said to me, ‘You’ve done pretty well here Goodman and your bombing results are good and your flying’s good.’ I said, ‘Thank you sir.’ He said, ‘How would you like to join 617 squadron?’ And I said, ‘What was that sir?’ [laughs] He said, ‘How would you like to join 617 squadron?’ I said, ‘I would be delighted and I know my crew would be.’ And that’s how we got posted to 617. Shall I go on?
CB: Ahum.
LBSG: When we arrived there of course we, we felt like mice there. All the famous names that had been on the squadron. One or two were still on it and I crept around really like a little mouse. I was frightened to show my face half the time because I thought I’m a sprog crew. I’ve never been on ops. What on earth are they going to think of me? And believe it or not, well not believe it or not I think you will believe it I was made so welcome by everybody that I felt pretty good in the end. Of course we had to do the squadron training. They had the SABS bomb sight which was the only, we were and still are I believe the only squadron that has ever had that sight but if you flew properly and that’s what 617 squadron was all about then you could guarantee if not a direct hit a pretty damn close one. Damn. Is that alright. I said damn. Yeah. Have to be so careful these days.
CB: Don’t worry about it.
LBSG: Yeah. We, we got through the training successfully and I did my first trip as a second dickie or co-pilot with flying officer Bob Knights and I couldn’t have been given a better chap if I’d chosen out of a hundred. To give you the feel of his value Bob was the flight lieutenant but had a DSO awarded and all those who understand that will know the real value of the man.
CB: Absolutely.
LBSG: The flight was to La Pallice. It was a French, a French port and we bombed successfully and came back and then I went to see the wing commander, Wing Commander Tait and he said ok. He’d spoken to Bob Knights obviously and Bob said ok or, ‘ was good enough’ I suppose, I don’t know and he said, ‘Ok. You and your crew will be on the next trip.’ I went back and told and everybody jumped for joy and our next trip in fact was to Brest. The U-boat pens at Brest. And of course being a sprog crew something was bound to happen wasn’t it? And halfway across the sea, on our way the wireless op said, no, I beg your pardon the flight deck filled with smoke and I said to the wireless op, ‘What’s going on at the back?’ He said, ‘Don’t worry. Don’t worry skip. The navigator and I are trying to put out the fire.’ [laughs] ‘The radios have caught fire.’ I said, ‘Oh great.’ Remember this was our first trip. I said, ‘Well the one thing we’re not going to do is turn back. This is 617 and there’s no way we’re going to turn back so you’d better get the bloody fire out.’ And I opened my DV panel. That’s the direct vision panel and tried to get the smoke out. Of course fortunately it was daytime but it was all over the, all over the flight deck. I mean, I could just about, I couldn’t see the instruments very well and but I could see out of the side panel, of course it was open and the DV was open so we managed to fly more or less on course until they put the fire out and then we continued on the op. And if anything was going to happen I suppose it would be on a first trip. After that we, apart from enemy action everything went very well, very well on the squadron. We had some, obviously brushes one way and another with the Luftwaffe and certainly with ackack and I always remember we had a wonderful bunch of ground crew and by the way I take my hat off to them. Nobody ever thinks about the ground crew but they were there day and night, winter, summer, pouring with rain, ice, snow or very hot they were always there when we came, before we left and when we came back. Always there to usher, to wave us into our dispersal and to look after us and to find out if there were any, if there were any snags and woe betide us if we’d been damaged by flak because they said, ‘What have you done to our aeroplane? Look at the holes in it.’ or whatever it was and all very good heartedly of course and they were the cream of the, they really were the cream, as far as far as I was concerned. They were the cream. Unsung heroes all of them. I don’t know anybody who got an award and they deserve some mention but as far as I know there’s never been a mention of them and it’s so unjust. Am I taking too -
CB: That’s alright. Just stop there a mo.
LBSG: Am I taking too -
[machine pause] 4019
CB: So with the ground crew you were getting on really well with them.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah
CB: And they were another part of the family really.
LBSG: Yes. Yes. The ground crew really were another part of our family and I can never understand why there was no tribute paid to them or no mention of them at any time in the huge part they played. Without them we wouldn’t be flying. And that still applies today. We did have one or two hairy trips I suppose on, on the squadron. I can remember so vividly still we deployed after the first abortive trip to sink the Tirpitz from a Russian forward base. We did one from Lossiemouth. We did two from Lossiemouth in fact but on the first one take-off was midnight from Lossiemouth and we were all lined up around the peri track, and people were, the perimeter track and people were taking off in turn and it was nearly our turn and suddenly my, I was looking around the cockpit just finally, everything had been done but you do, probably nervousness I don’t know, will keep you thinking about something. Not nervousness I don’t mean but just to keep you thinking about something and my flight engineer he used to sit by you in the dickie seat for all ops and he’d adjust the throttles or the props or anything you wanted. Synchronise them and of course he followed up on take-off and on landing. He used to, you’d call out the settings and he’d set, just minus four, minus two whatever it was and that’s how you’d come in but he suddenly nudged me, and he was a Scotsman who never used one word if half a word would do so I thought what does he want? He suddenly nudged me and he went like this and I looked up and there was the huge undercarriage of a Lancaster heading straight for us. Straight for us. It wasn’t maybe ten or twenty feet off the ground. Fortunately they cleared us and when we got back of course we found out what had happened and it was Tony Iveson who was taking off before us and he had an engine surge on take-off and so the aircraft swung off the runway and straight towards the parked aircraft which happened to be me facing him and but for the good background training and the alertness and the crew cooperation of his, he and his flight engineer there would have been a disaster but they straightened the aircraft by levelling the propellers above the throttles and then putting them up again and Tony Iveson just cleared the top of our cockpit. Just cleared it. That’s a very good start to a long trip. It was from Lossiemouth, it was pitch dark, it was midnight I think, pouring with rain and we were going low level over the North Sea all the way to the coasting-in point at Norway. What a good start. However, apart from that we all rendezvoused over the rendezvous point over the coast, Norway at daylight just as we were told to and Wing Commander Tait was leading of course and we formed up in to the gaggle and made our way to the Tirpitz and bombed it, or tried to. Unfortunately there was a lot of cloud. They’d put up a smokescreen anyhow but in addition to that there was a lot of cloud so it was an aborted trip. Thirteen and a quarter hours in total and we brought the bombs back. The Tallboys back. So the whole trip was thirteen and a quarter hours and that was the second Tirpitz effort. The third one was a repeat of the second one but the weather was clear and we bombed and I understand that Wing Commander Tait bombed first. His bomb made a direct hit on the Tirpitz.
CB: What could you see from that height?
LBSG: I didn’t see very much because we were following a Target Direction Indicator on the [combing of the] cockpit. It was the bomb aimer who was directing. He didn’t say left or right. He was adjusting his bomb sight and as he did so the target direction indicator came up and one degree looked about that big so he could, he could really show a one degree turn and you’d try it looked so big you would try to do it but you did do it, you’d try and that’s how we we kept within five nautical miles, five miles of our airspeed fifty feet in height and of course with the TDI we had to keep absolutely directly on track and that really I was only part of the team, the pilot. There was the navigator who had to make sure that the bomb aimer had the correct winds and the right temperature and that everything was set and he had the job of making sure when the bomb was to go. The navigator was very important with all the information he had and I was just sitting there like an auto pilot following this TD, Target Direction Indicator. TDI. So really I was the least important of them all. As long as I flew the right course at the right height and the right speed the others were doing the job and there it was, that’s how it was with all 617 squadron ops. With the SABS we did practice for a low level trip but that was a very, we practiced low level at night, five hundred or a thousand feet, on resin lights. They were the very very dim lights on the rear of the, on the, how do we describe it?
[machine pause]
CB: Right we’re just talking about lights.
LBSG: Yes. We did. Can I repeat?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: We practised a gaggle at night and had to, it was called a formation at night but it was very difficult to fly. We did it on the resin lights which were on the wing root of the aircraft you were trying to formate on. It was very difficult at night with a lot of aeroplanes but we managed to do it. It was all over Lincolnshire and everybody got back safely but it was deemed too dangerous to do again.
CB: In the night.
LBSG: Yes at night. Or operationally at all. I think, I think the feeling was we might have gone at night. The whole thing at night.
CB: I see. Right.
LBSG: But there you are. We never did it and I think everybody was thankful including, I believe, the squadron commander. Of course, it was really dicey. They’re a big aeroplane to throw around at night. A Lancaster. We just tried to formate but not too closely on the resin lights which shone so dimly. But there it is.
CB: You didn’t collide. Nobody had a collision.
LBSG: No. No sir.
CB: No. Ok. So in essence the Tirpitz raids were daylight because it wasn’t practical to do it at night.
LBSG: Well night day. We took off at night.
CB: Yes. But you arrived in daylight.
LBSG: Pardon me. We coasted in about daylight. Yeah. Excuse me.
CB: Ok. So coasting in means crossing the coast.
LBSG: Crossing the coast. Yes. And that was our rendezvous point. I think I said that.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I hope. If I made any mistakes please tell me.
CB: That’s alright. Yeah.
LBSG: I don’t know, where were we? Do I need to go -
CB: So this was on the second raid.
LBSG: I finished with that.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And the third raid sank it.
CB: Yes the third raid sank it.
LBSG: Yeah. It was a repeat of the second. There’s no point going through it all again.
CB: No. Ok.
LBSG: Right. Now, what else?
CB: So after that what did you do?
LBSG: I’ll have to get my logbook out to find out.
CB: Ok. But in principal after you’d done the Tirpitz there was nothing else to do there.
LBSG: No.
CB: But you were a precision bombing squadron so -
LBSG: Yes. Yes.
CB: What were you focusing on mainly then?
LBSG: Well we always had a particular target rather than area bombing but there weren’t many terribly specialised targets like the dams or the Tirpitz but we did what we were told to do and, I hope, successfully. We did have a shot at the Mohne, and Eder or Sorpe.
CB: Sorpe.
LBSG: Sorpe dams but with no result. We had Tallboys and they were absolutely not fit for the job. It was just a shot in the dark I think but we never did any damage. Or very appreciable damage.
CB: It was too soft.
LBSG: Yes, I imagine. Yes.
CB: Because it was an earth dam.
LBSG: It wasn’t the right bomb and it was built, I think the dam, the Mohne and the Sorpe were built in different ways, I think. I don’t know.
CB: Well the Sorpe’s an earthwork dam.
LBSG: Yes. Yeah. That’s right. Yes.
CB: So it absorbs -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: The impact.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Explosion.
LBSG: I don’t know. I can tell you about -
CB: So did you go on to U-boat target pens?
LBSG: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So was that immediately after that?
LBSG: I’d better get my –
CB: Well we’ll stop for a mo anyway shall we?
LBSG: Yes. Yes.
[machine pause]
LBSG: I think October the 29th
CB: So we’re talking about the Tirpitz now.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: And the date of your, the third attempt to get it.
LBSG: Second. Second attempt.
CB: Second attempt.
LBSG: I was in hospital for the third one.
CB: Ok. So that was what date?
LBSG: 29th of October 1944.
CB: Right. Ok.
LBSG: 29th. 30th because -
CB: Yeah. Overnight. Yeah.
LBSG: We weren’t we were talking about something else weren’t we?
CB: No. No but it’s just to put that into context.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: Because it can go back.
LBSG: What do you want me to say?
CB: Yes. And so on the first raid you did what was the date of that? On the Tirpitz sortie.
LBSG: Yes. The first raid that I carried out -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Was, on the Tirpitz was on October the 29th
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: 1944.
CB: Right. And then the next one. The second one you did.
LBSG: I was in hospital so I didn’t go.
CB: You didn’t do the next one.
LBSG: I didn’t do the next one.
CB: No.
LBSG: Unfortunately.
CB: Right ok. So after the Tirpitz.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Then what did you do?
LBSG: Well it’s what -
CB: What sorties did you, were they, because you were precision bombing all the time -
LBSG: Yes. Well we went, after the Tirpitz we went after various dams. The earth dam.
CB: Oh yeah.
LBSG: At Heimbach.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And then the E&R boat pens at Ijmuiden in Holland and then -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: It was quite a long night trip in December 1944 to Perlitz which is Stettin.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: To destroy the synthetic oil plant there.
CB: Right.
LBSG: To deny the Germans fuel for their aircraft and tanks and anything else.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And that was a long trip. It was, it took twelve hours and fifty and thirty five minutes.
CB: There and back.
LBSG: There and back.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Yes. Sorry. Erase that.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: That was, it took nine hours and twenty five minutes at night.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: It was a night trip.
CB: Ok. And on the long night trips what did you do when you got hungry? Did you take food with you?
LBSG: Well we were supplied with food and coffee but -
CB: What would that be?
LBSG: But I can never remember eating anything.
CB: Oh really.
LBSG: I may have drunk some coffee. I think on the way back from the Tirpitz I did but I don’t think I ate anything at the time because we had, we had something to eat obviously before we left but there was nobody to fly the aircraft if I was going to sit there drinking coffee and having a sandwich. Of course there was one pilot and of course no autopilot.
CB: No.
LBSG: So if I decided to let go of the controls it wouldn’t be a very good idea. There was nobody else to fly it.
CB: And so after -
LBSG: People did of course. They could, you could sup coffee and you could eat a sandwich but I never really, I had coffee I think but never, never took, never had a sandwich I don’t think.
CB: And what height were you normally flying?
LBSG: I can tell, it varied. Up to eighteen thousand feet. We flew anything between twelve or fourteen and eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Are we talking about a mixture of free flowing bombs or only Tallboys?
LBSG: I’m talking about only Tallboys.
CB: Right. Ok. So in that case you needed to be a certain height for them -
LBSG: Yes. That’s right. We did. Yes.
CB: To reach the speed that was needed didn’t you?
LBSG: And we needed to be, have I mentioned it, needed the correct air speed to be flown.
CB: No. So what, so tell us the envelope you were operating.
LBSG: Well I -
CB: So the airspeed -
LBSG: I’m fairly sure, without knowing, because we were just given the bombing heights.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: That we never, we certainly never bombed less than sixteen to eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Right. And -
LBSG: Are we being recorded?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: And what airspeed would you be going, roughly?
LBSG: A hundred and twenty five I suppose. I don’t –
CB: A bit more than that.
LBSG: What with the bomb doors open?
CB: Right. That’s what I’m asking. Yeah. So you approach, what sort of speed would you cruise first of all? On the way out say. Would you -
LBSG: I don’t know.
CB: Set it at a hundred and eighty or -
LBSG: No. Pardon me. A hundred and eighty miles an hour.
CB: Yeah. Or not?
LBSG: I just cannot remember. I’m sorry.
CB: It doesn’t matter. The reason I’m asking the question -
LBSG: That’s rather fast by the sound of it but it wasn’t –
CB: I’m just getting a feel for -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: What happens in terms of going out there?
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: And then do you change speed when you’re, because you’re doing such precision bombing.
LBSG: Yes, you, well -
CB: Do you have a different speed that is lower, faster or what?
LBSG: Well when the bomb doors are open of course it slows the aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: But you do have to settle down on a speed and I can’t remember it.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And we were supposed to be within fifty feet of height and five miles an hour airspeed.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And we all kept to that.
CB: Right.
LBSG: Without no doubt.
CB: So we’re talking about there’s a very -
LBSG: Precision bomb. Precision.
CB: Yes precision is very specific -
LBSG: Absolutely.
CB: On all these things.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: That are worked out in advance are they?
LBSG: Yes. [pause] No. Sorry they’re not worked out in advance. You have to fly within five miles an hour and of course it wasn’t nautical miles then it was miles per hour.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Of airspeed and within fifty feet of height and the bomb aimer would be given a set of settings by the navigator so that he corrected for temperature and height and wind and so on as much as the navigator could do it all. Obviously -
CB: Right. Yeah.
VT: So you were just told what to -
LBSG: Yes I -
VT: The bomb aimer was telling you wasn’t he?
LBSG: I could have been an auto pilot really.
VT: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: And the important people were the bomb aimer and the navigator really.
CB: Yeah but you were actually translating those instructions into a very -
LBSG: Yes I was but yeah.
CB: Specific held, tightly held speed and height.
LBSG: Oh you had to yes.
CB: So there was a skill in that that was greater than normal bombing.
LBSG: Yes but that’s why you were on 617 squadron.
CB: Exactly.
LBSG: Are we being recorded?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Oh. Ok.
CB: That’s fine.
LBSG: Yeah. That’s why we were on 617 squadron. All of us.
CB: Yeah. Yeah
LBSG: Once we passed the test if you like.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And of course if you weren’t up to scratch although I didn’t meet anybody who wasn’t but, but you could get kicked off and that would have been terrible for anybody.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: I mean you worked hard to stay, to stay on the squadron.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: There’s no doubt. Nobody wanted to leave it.
CB: No.
LBSG: Nobody.
CB: So how much by this time how much is daylight and how much is at night?
LBSG: At this time a lot more was in daylight although we trained for night bombing and we did, as I say, quite long trips. Nine hours and twenty five minutes to Stettin, Berlitz or, as an example. That’s quite a long trip of mine.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: Yes. I don’t know the long –
CB: So what else have you got on your logbook there?
LBSG: Well, of interest on January the 12th 1945. Are we recording?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: We were briefed for a daylight on Bergen. The port.
CB: In Norway.
LBSG: Bergen in Norway yes. The port. And we had an escort of fighters but they had gone down, we were quite high on this occasion, we were, well we were always high, but, and they’d gone down to try and silence the ackack guns. There were an awful lot of them around the port and as they did so a m I think they were outside of a squadron of Focke Wulf 190s which was the latest or a mixture of that and the Messerschmitt but certainly there were a lot of fighters over the target and that was when Tony Iveson got shot up badly and he got a DFC for getting everything home. Although three of his crew baled out they weren’t, there was no communication, they thought, they’d been told to stand by and when they heard nothing else they thought that the thing had been shot up so badly so three of them baled out but you couldn’t blame them but two or three of them remained with Tony and they got the aircraft back. They used ropes to tie things up and it was an extraordinary feat and Tony Iveson put it down, I think it was certainly it was in the Shetlands or around there, one of the islands and he got an immediate DFC and certainly earned it. Certainly earned it. It’s a pity that his flight engineer who did so much towards helping Tony fly it because he couldn’t move the rudders by himself for example, he had to have an oppy sitting down there moving the rudders. The flight engineer. But anyhow there it was. I’m not criticising anybody I mean -
CB: No.
LBSG: It’s as they saw it. Not the crew. That’s how the command saw it.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: And all the rest of it. But that was a dicey trip, Bergen. We were lucky to get away. I think we had three shot down altogether.
CB: Did you?
LBSG: Two or three yeah. Yes. Of course our fighters, they must have been Mustangs because Spitfires could never have made it to Bergen in Norway. They must have been Mustangs. And they went away and shot, went down and shot away the ackack and lo and behold these fighters came and really tried to make mincemeat of us. They did. Well obviously they did. We were lucky.
CB: It didn’t sound a very good tactic did it? You should have, they should have left some fighters up top.
LBSG: Well yeah.
CB: Anyway -
LBSG: Yes. I mean we weren’t told, we weren’t told about the fighter -
CB: No.
LBSG: What the fighter tactics were.
CB: After Bergen where did you go?
LBSG: Oh all over the place. Went to [?]
CB: Is that a port?
LBSG: That was the Midget U-boat pens.
CB: Oh yes.
LBSG: They were a great menace. And we did the Bielefeld Viaduct.
CB: Oh yes.
VT: Oh right.
LBSG: And it was the Beilefeld, yes it was the Bielefeld.
CB: We talked about Tallboys but did you also do Grand Slam?
LBSG: Yes, I, yes.
CB: Because that was Bielefield wasn’t it?
LBSG: I did. I dropped a Grand Slam. I was on, I think the second or third on the squadron. Not many were dropped altogether. Only forty one were made and certainly not that amount were dropped I don’t think.
CB: No.
LBSG: But anyhow I dropped a Grand Slam on the Arnsberg Viaduct in March 1945. Now, it was important for the winning of the war that all lines of communication were severed so our targets were viaducts, railway bridges which they are, ordinary bridges, railway lines and so on because that stopped them bringing up troops.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And food and ammunition and all the rest of it. So lines of communication were certainly the target.
CB: So how did that do on that viaduct?
LBSG: Well yes. It -
CB: Brought it down.
LBSG: Yes it brought, but then look what they did with the dams. They had that up and working again in two or three weeks. They were masters at repairing things quickly.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And then we went back and bombed it again but nevertheless they -
CB: It was disruptive.
LBSG: They were a pretty tough adversary. They were. And -
CB: Sure.
LBSG: Able to, they weren’t, they were not stolid. They were versatile in their thinking. If they needed something then that would be done in the order it was needed.
CB: So just for the background of people listening to this -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: The Grand Slam is a twenty two thousand pound bomb.
LBSG: That’s right.
CB: What modification was there made to the aircraft and did the crew amount change when you did that?
LBSG: Yes. It did. Well it changed when we went to the Tirpitz. We only had five people I think. If you could pass me what I’ve written I could tell you.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: I know it but it would be much easier.
CB: Yeah. But just quickly on the, you had to take, did you lose -
LBSG: Be careful with that.
CB: The mid upper gunner when you were doing -
LBSG: No. No. I’ll have that back. Doing what?
CB: When you took a Grand Slam which member of the crew -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Did you not take?
LBSG: The Grand Slam. One, two, three. No, we took, we took the, we took the gunners. We didn’t take the wireless op.
CB: Right.
LBSG: For some reason. We took the gunners and we, yes because they’re necessary in daylight but we did anyhow but sometimes we took even fewer. On the Tirpitz we took [pause] sorry about this.
CB: It’s ok. We’re just looking in the -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Logbook.
LBSG: Yeah. The Tirpitz. It was a full crew. No. I’m talking nonsense sorry. On the Tirpitz. Where am I? [pause]. Nothing. The Tirpitz. One, two, three there were five crew and not seven.
CB: Right.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So you would have, we’re talking about Tallboys.
LBSG: Five not including me sorry.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: We left-
CB: So six. Yeah.
LBSG: We left behind the rear gunner. Yeah. Unless, we took one gunner. He may have filled the rear gunner’s position but I can tell you.
CB: Well the wireless operators were often -
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: The wireless operators were often -
LBSG: Oh we took him.
CB: Wireless and gunner weren’t they?
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Originally.
LBSG: We took the wireless op because he was, not that it helped much but he was getting winds which weren’t as good as we were getting. I relied, I had a wonderful navigator and I took his word on anything rather than having command winds sent to us by -
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: Some Mosquito somewhere.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: I was looking for something here. You asked me to check.
CB: Ok. We’re just going to -
LBSG: And I can’t remember it.
CB: Well, we’ll come back to that.
LBSG: Yeah.
VT: Is your logbook as alive today as it was when you wrote it?
LBSG: What?
VT: Your logbook.
LBSG: Yes.
VT: Is it as alive to you today?
LBSG: Yes as I wrote it and when we came back from a trip.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Yeah. It’s a bit fragile but you can have a look at it if you want to.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: The interesting thing I think about the later times is what sort of targets you were talking about and what was the, the Grand Slam was used for a particular reason for a particular target.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So what was that?
LBSG: Well I dropped mine on the viaduct.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And that was a particular target but I suppose one Grand Slam certainly did make a mess. There’s no doubt about the targets but I can’t tell you the thinking behind it I’m afraid. I was a squadron pilot.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I had no, I obeyed orders and took what I was told to take. Nobody discussed the theory of it with me or -
CB: Right. No. Quite.
LBSG: The tactics.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Or anything else.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: The squadron commander knew but I didn’t.
CB: But the Tallboy was a big bomb in itself of twelve thousand pounds.
LBSG: That was a twelve thousand pound bomb. Yes.
CB: And had huge penetration as well.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And so was and of course the twenty two thousand pound was a huge one. There were only, I think, forty one made and I believe I was certainly the third or fourth on the squadron to drop one.
CB: Right. Well they worked.
LBSG: We dropped them. Hmmn?
CB: Yeah. They worked.
LBSG: Yeah. But a massive thing. And we did have an undercarriage, different undercarriage. I think we had -
CB: To get a greater height.
LBSG: We had, I think it was a Lincoln. I just, that’s what I wanted this for. Have a look.
CB: You were –
LBSG: Oh the Grand Slam. Yes. Just a sec. Yes, if you, are you interested?
CB: Yes.
LBSG: Well for the Grand Slam the Lincoln undercarriage was fitted rather than our own. They’d allowed for the increased weight.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: The mid upper and front turret were removed.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: That’s the gunners or one gunner at least and the wireless operator’s equipment and the wireless operator himself so we had a pretty skeleton crew when we -
CB: Simply because the bomb was so heavy.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: They needed to save -
LBSG: Well -
CB: Weight.
LBSG: Yes. The other thing that came out was the armour plating -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And that -
CB: Behind you -
LBSG: And the pilot’s union didn’t like that because we had armour plating behind us. However, it was all taken out and the ammunition load was reduced so we couldn’t, yeah, there we are and it was all to save weight. The bomb doors were removed and they were replaced with fairings and a chain link strop with an electromechanical mechanism release was fitted to hold the Grand Slam in place.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And the electric, electromechanical release worked very well. You could hear it. I know it sounds strange but you actually heard it go, in the air, eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Right. So you are at eighteen thousand and you lose that, you drop it.
LBSG: Oh well –
CB: What happens to the aeroplane at that time?
LBSG: I’ll tell you what happened to the aeroplane. Although I was prepared for something the aeroplane just lifted up. That’s right. It lifted up.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Like a lift. And my flight engineer who was sitting next to me said he heard a loud bang but I didn’t hear that. I think I was occupied wondering what was going to happen to the aeroplane. There was no -
CB: When you -
LBSG: The great thing about the war was these days you’d be on a course for everything but they just did all these modifications and put all these things on and nobody said even about the take-off run because nobody knew so it was all down to us but then we were on 617 squadron and supposed, we were all there because we would be, we had to be able to cope with these things.
CB: So you were stationed where?
LBSG: At Woodhall Spa.
CB: And when you flew with the Grand Slam -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Did you use the standard runway?
LBSG: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So what was the difference in the run needed for Grand Slam compared with using a Tallboy?
LBSG: There wasn’t too much difference. It was a longer run, take off run and it was a bit slower on the climb and I think the flight engineer said he saw the wings bend a bit more than they usually do but I don’t know but it was certainly a longer take off run obviously and it was much slower on, well much, it was slower on the climb but once you got going it was, the Lancaster was an absolutely superb aircraft. You could do anything with it. Is this being recorded?
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So what other, so how many, how many raids are we, so operations so far?
LBSG: Oh well. Tirpitz was, I mentioned, I mentioned Bergen haven’t I? That was –
CB: Yes. Then the viaduct.
LBSG: And the viaduct. Yes and the synthetic oil plant I mentioned.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: But I ought to mention -
CB: Did you do -
LBSG: If I can find it in the right place where we were escorted by an ME262 fighter.
CB: Oh were you?
LBSG: Which really put a bit of a jerk into us as you can imagine. I’m just trying to -
CB: Was he being aggressive or just curious?
LBSG: Well I’ll tell you about it. I’ll just find out when it was.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And I will tell you. [pause] Oh dear. Sorry. Do you mind the pause?
CB: No. I’ll pause it.
[machine pause]
CB: So we’re talking about the 262.
LBSG: Yes. We were briefed for a daylight raid on the docks and installations at Hamburg. The port of Hamburg and we carried out the bombing run and, [pause] let me find the right one.
CB: This is on Hamburg.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Yes
LBSG: I’m looking for the one with the 262.
CB: Ah. Well we’ll just pause it again.
LBSG: Yeah.
[machine pause]
CB: Right we’re restarting now.
LBSG: Yes. I hope this is the one. On the 9th of April we were briefed for a daylight on the docks and installations at Hamburg and we did drop our Tallboy. There was a hang up and unfortunately it didn’t hit the target but went into the port area and I think probably some of the housing which we could do nothing about and on that occasion there were jet aircraft sent up to intercept us and we were fortunate we didn’t get intercepted. However, on the way back I was horrified when my, when my flight engineer who was always sitting next to me in the dickie seat nudged me in the ribs and went like this and I looked out and it all looked normal so I shrugged my shoulders and he nudged me harder and went like that to indicate look outside and I looked outside and I was absolutely horrified to see a Messerschmitt 262 in formation with us if you please. Which, to say the least, is a bit unusual. Now, he had cannon that could open fire three or four hundred yards before our tiny 303s even hit the synchronisation point and so we were, I mean we were helpless and he, he was there. He didn’t, there was no friendly wave and we stared at each other and my flight engineer looked at him as well and suddenly he disappeared as quickly as he’d come.
CB: So he was out of ammo.
LBSG: Well hang on.
CB: Ah.
LBSG: When we got back we mentioned it and Tony Langston who was a navigator in the aircraft behind us, he said, ‘Oh it was you was it?’ And I said, ‘Yeah. What do you mean?’ He said, ‘Well, we’d been attacked by the 262 and he opened fire on us and he got nowhere near us and he left us,’ and he said, ‘So it must have been you he formated on to have a look.’ Of course I was all ready to do the 5 group corkscrew and I don’t know what to get away from him but he just sat there and he wasn't, he couldn’t possibly fire at me while he was in good formation with me and it wasn’t much chance of a mid-upper shooting him down. I mean, I don’t think we had a mid-upper then. Just a sec, I think we only had the rear gunner. Can you -
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Wait?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Sorry.
[machine pause]
LBSG: We shoot at him.
CB: Right so -
LBSG: Sorry.
CB: Just repeat that. So you didn’t, on this particular time when the 262 came along beside you there was no mid upper turret operating.
LBSG: No. We had, there was no way we could shoot at him. We had one gunner and we’d have shot at ourselves I think if we’d tried. He probably could see that. Well he just sat there and then disappeared.
CB: How long was that for?
LBSG: To me it was about five hours but I think it was about thirty, about a minute, yes. Well I was just waiting for him to start an attack and I was getting all ready to do a 5 group corkscrew and all the other things but I don’t think we’d have stood much chance against him frankly. Anyhow, when we landed you were debriefed by the intelligence officer and I told him this and Tony Langston happened to hear me talking about it. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘He went to you did he?’ I said, ‘Well yes.’ Apparently, he’d attacked Tony Langston’s aircraft. I think it was flown by Flying Officer Joplin, Arthur Joplin and although he’d shot at them he didn’t shoot the aeroplane down which was extraordinary and I only, can only assume he must have been a very young -
VT: Rookie.
LBSG: New pilot who’d gone through a crash course towards the end of the war and really were just firing the guns and of course he didn’t do any damage.
VT: This was quite late on then was it?
LBSG: Yes. I’ve just given you the date.
VT: Yeah.
CB: 9th of April.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah. And well thank goodness he didn’t do it.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: I mean, he could have shot us both out of the sky without any trouble.
CB: Thirty millimetre cannon. Yeah.
VT: I suppose given the situation and what was the potential in the situation that you didn’t really have any thoughts about the 262 at that moment.
LBSG: Well -
VT: About its –
LBSG: What I was thinking of, ‘What shall I do?’ Because he was there and while he was on the starboard wing he couldn’t do any damage.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: But if he peeled off and we could see he was going to attack I would have to try and do a 5 group corkscrew -
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Which we were told to do. I don’t know what the success rate is.
CB: Ok. Just on that topic.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Could you just describe what was the 5 group corkscrew?
LBSG: Yes. Certainly.
CB: How it worked. So –
LBSG: Well -
CB: You instigate it.
LBSG: The 5 group corkscrew was -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: If you were attacked by an enemy aircraft you did something called a 5 group corkscrew. And that was from where you were you’d dive, rolling to the right and then after a few hundred feet you’d dive, continue to dive but roll to the left and then you would climb rolling to the right and you continue climbing and roll to the left. Now that’s a 5 group corkscrew and as you did, from the time you commenced the corkscrew you told the rear gunner what you were doing and you knew what deflection, this is theory, he knew what deflection he should be allowing for on his machine guns. So that was our defence and I don’t, I don’t know, fortunately I don’t know if it would ever work. Other people would have found out but they’d probably been shot down. You’ve got an agile twin jet fighter after you and you’ve got a big four engine.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Petrol, I mean fuel, you know.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: We weren’t jet we were the old fashioned engine.
CB: Piston. Yeah.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: Piston.
LBSG: Piston engine. Yeah. Wonderful aeroplane. Wonderful engines. I’ve no criticism there but they were a step, a hundred steps ahead of us with jet engines but we got away with it.
VT: What did you know at that time about the 262?
LBSG: Very little.
VT: Very little. Had you seen them before?
LBSG: Very little. Hmmn?
VT: Had you seen them before?
LBSG: Not in -
VT: No.
LBSG: Not in anger. No.
VT: No.
LBSG: We were attacked by jets over Hamburg and I suppose there must have been 262s amongst them but we were on the bombing run and you –
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: You just, you just had to stay on the bombing. There was no, excuse at all. You wouldn’t last five minutes on the squadron if you didn’t.
CB: We’ve covered a lot of stuff you’ve done.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: So when did you finish the tour?
LBSG: I can tell you that. Well I waited until the end of the war. I’d already finished the tour. Thirty operations.
CB: When did that happen?
LBSG: Well it was right at the end of the war I think and I opted to stay, to stay on the squadron. Hang on a second please.
[machine pause]
LBSG: I did my last operation on the 25th of April 1945 and that was against Berchtesgaden. The Eagle’s Nest.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And that was my, but by that time I’d done thirty trips. That was a tour of, tour of ops.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: But I was staying on. I didn’t want to leave the squadron.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I didn’t know the war was going to end.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: So I‘d opted to stay on the squadron.
CB: Oh right. Which would have been another thirty if the war had continued.
LBSG: Oh no I mean, the war had, the next month, in May the war stopped.
CB: No. No. If the war had continued you would have done -
LBSG: Well -
CB: Thirty. Would you? By signing on for that?
LBSG: Well yes. Yes but on 617 squadron you weren’t time expired after thirty ops.
CB: Ah.
LBSG: On main force you were automatically but you went on on thirty, squadron, to any number of ops. There was no limit on thirty. No limit to thirty. I mean -
CB: No.
VT: So you -
LBSG: On the squadron. We could go on as long as the CO would put up with us and -
VT: So you would have gone on for leave.
LBSG: I would –
VT: And then -
LBSG: Well no I would have gone on if the war hadn’t finished. I would have gone on.
VT: Yes. Yes. So you would have had leave after that thirty.
LBSG: No. I wouldn’t because it was 617. Normally -
VT: You would have just continued on ops.
LBSG: Yes.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Normally, on main force, after thirty ops you had, you were rested. You automatically, you were -
CB: Yes.
LBSG: Posted and you became an instructor on something or other.
CB: Right. Ok so how much longer did you continue with 617?
LBSG: Good question that. I will tell you. I should have said. May the 10th ’45.
CB: Right. Two days after the end of the war.
LBSG: Yeah because they posted and I went, well yes I went into what would have, was going to be Transport Command. It wasn’t then of course and I think with another chap we flew the first two sorties that Transport Command ever did I think. What was the beginning. Hang on a sec. I’ll -
CB: So you were posted somewhere quite different then?
LBSG: Oh yeah. Well I was posted to Leconfield.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And then, I mean, oh at Leconfield it was awfully, we had nothing to do at all and so I went to the, there was a Halifax squadron there and I went to the CO of the squadron and asked him if I could be checked out on a Halifax because we were doing nothing all day and my crew, well one or two of the members of the crew I had left came with me and he said yeah and he, you know checked me out on a Halifax and I said, ‘Can I go on flying?’ And he said, ‘Yeah, if you want to,’ and before I knew it I was flying bigwigs around Germany showing them all the -
CB: Cooks tours.
LBSG: Yeah the Cooks tour of Germany. And it suited me, I was doing some flying. So that’s how I came to fly Halifaxes. And of course I’d flown Stirlings at OT, heavy conversion bombing unit and then when the war ended, I’ll see here flew, yes I did a bit of Fairey flying. Where was this? Stirling. Here we are I think. Stirling flying. Yes. I was posted to, oh dear, another I was posted to, what was I doing?
CB: After Leconfield.
LBSG: Oh 31. 51 squadron I think. Yeah. 51 squadron.
CB: Oh right. At Skellingthorpe.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: They were at Waddington by then.
LBSG: I’m not sure. I don’t know if they were.
CB: They were Skelly oh.
LBSG: This is what I was talking about. September ‘45.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And August.
CB: Otherwise Skellingthorpe.
LBSG: August ’45.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And I did the, what did we do? We did some, yes another chap and myself, called Saunders I think, we were the first to, what was the beginning of Transport Command. We, we could fly Stirlings so we went, we did a sort of proving flight out to Castel Benito if I remember correctly. Yes. And then did some, I don’t know, must have taken freight or something I don’t know. Anyhow, we went, I did quite a bit of flying on the way out to [Shima?] Maripur in Stirlings.
CB: So 51 squadron was on Stirlings was it?
LBSG: Well it must have been.
CB: Was this 51?
LBSG: Yeah. 51, it must have been. Yeah. And we did all sorts of things on Stirlings. Yes, we, I did quite a few hours afterwards on Stirlings. I’ve just realised that and we carried, believe it or not, twenty four passengers. That was all in the Stirling. Of course there was nowhere to put them except in the middle we were all, have you seen the inside of a Stirling? It’s like a submarine. You’ve got these big wheels. If the engineer wanted to change the fuel tanks he had to go halfway down the fuselage with these massive wheels and well it was just like a submarine really. They built them as submarines. And when you, when you took off, as part of the engineer’s duty as soon as you retracted the undercarriage which was like a bailey bridge, they were really, he had to go and check, there was a meter which showed you the amount of revs and each undercarriage and the twin tail wheel, twin tail wheel they had to be within five revolutions of the set figure given when they were retracted [coughs], excuse me, and if they weren’t then you were supposed to go back and land. What you did was you put it down and brought it up again in the hope, because the last thing you wanted to do you’d gone through all the trouble of getting airborne in a Stirling and then to find the undercarriage rev counter had stopped working so we never never had a boomerang for that. Never. But the tail wheel also had a, but it was extraordinary you had to go and check the rev counters to make sure. It was like a bailey bridge going up and down really. Extraordinary. The Stirling was a nice aeroplane to fly.
CB: Was it?
LBSG: It was and I did quite a bit of flying on it out to India and back with passengers. Shaibah. Lida. Cairo.
CB: This was –
LBSG: Went to Cairo.
VT: when you mention the Cooks tour. I’m just thinking for the tape should you not explain something about that? And also -
CB: Ok so -
VT: Who were the bigwigs.
CB: So what people were these bigwigs that you took on the Cooks tours?
LBSG: Well I think they were generals and admirals and air marshals and other probably highly placed civil servants and of course to see anything they had to stand behind you or look out of what windows there were. After all it was a Halifax. It was a bomber not a sightseeing aeroplane [laughs].
CB: No.
LBSG: But they didn’t mind. They stood there and of course there were all these devastated cities.
CB: So what height were you?
LBSG: It was a horror to see.
CB: Yes. What height were you flying?
LBSG: Oh pretty low for them to see. Well high enough for them to have an overall view but not up, not very high.
CB: No. What sort of height are we talking about?
LBSG: Oh a few thousand feet I think.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Yeah. We might come down lower to show them a specific thing but it was really, when I think about it horrifying. These huge cities. But it was great going to Cologne because everything was ruined except the cathedral and that was, and I am sure that was by sheer luck. I am sure. Because we were never briefed don’t hit the cathedral and at night I mean [ ?] I think it was sheer luck but anyhow it reflected greatly on the RAFs reputation and we’ve kept it that way. I’m sure you can’t blame, oh.
CB: Yes. That’s right.
LBSG: Oh no. Please.
CB: That’s fine.
LBSG: Oh no.
CB: We can wipe it.
LBSG: Oh yeah that little bit please.
CB: Right, so -
LBSG: Just -
CB: So -
LBSG: Just -
CB: So we were talking about Cooks tours.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: It’s about people who were -
LBSG: Bigwigs.
CB: Being shown -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: The effect of -
LBSG: Yes. Of the bombing.
CB: Of the bombing.
LBSG: On Germany.
CB: Strategy yeah. So what do you want me to say then?
LBSG: Yeah that’s just to explain. You’ve just said it yeah.
CB: The Cooks tour in the Halifax was for bigwigs and top ranking officers to show them how accurate the bombing had been and how right the RAF strategy was.
CB: Ok. That’s fine. Good.
VT: Wonderful.
CB: So just tell us about the crew then. So you had the same crew all the time did you?
LBSG: Yes. I had the same crew throughout -
CB: On the 617.
LBSG: My operational flying. I think I explained that we picked each other at random but it always seemed to work out. Very rarely did it, did it not work out and I had a splendid crew and they supported me all the way through.
CB: What mixture of nationalities were they?
LBSG: Well at that time they were all British but one was a Welshman. I suppose he didn’t, wouldn’t like me to call him, he’d like me to call him Welsh now but he was he was a rear gunner. The rest, yes, were all British. Were all English. But in those days they were all British.
CB: And the crew themselves at work, rest and play was it?
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So you did everything together.
LBSG: Not everything but we were pretty well bonded together.
CB: So what was the rank range? So you were by then -
LBSG: Flight lieutenant.
CB: What rank? Right.
LBSG: And -
CB: Any other officers -
LBSG: I had -
CB: In the crew?
LBSG: I think I had a flight, I think Tony Hayward, the bomb aimer, I’m not sure if he’d been promoted to flight lieutenant by then. The navigator was a flying officer. Tony Hayward was either a flying officer or flight lieutenant and the rest of the crew were sergeants or flight sergeants and became warrant officers as well.
CB: Yeah. Ok. Thank you. We’re going to stop there and -
LBSG: I’m glad to hear that.
CB: Pick up things later. Isn’t that amazing?
VT: Oh yeah. Terrific. Terrific.
LBSG: What?
CB: So that was really good Benny.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: That’s really good.
LBSG: You’re being nice to me there.
VT: No. No. No. No. No.
CB: I’m trying to be because I want to be able to come back. [laughs]
LBSG: Yeah. Certainly. Well I mean -
CB: Oh no. This is really good. I’m serious. Now the point here really is that we are going to read that. We’re rushing off because we’ve laboured you a lot but also -
LBSG: Oh that’s alright.
CB: We need to get back.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: And I’m coming down here again shortly ‘cause I want to go to Crowthorne and a ninety six year old lady whose husband is suffering from dementia -
LBSG: Oh dear.
CB: The last eight years and is now in a home but she was on intelligence at -
LBSG: Was she at -
CB: At Driffield.
LBSG: Oh Driffield, not on, was it -
CB: And, and later, later at Linton on Ouse.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: And she spent three and a half years at Linton on Ouse.
LBSG: But she wasn’t at the, where am I?
VT: Bletchley?
LBSG: Hmmn?
VT: Bletchley.
LBSG: Bletchley Park.
CB: No. No. No. No. She was a WAAF in the -
LBSG: Well there were lots of WAAFs there.
CB: Administration and cook.
LBSG: Yeah. She was a WAAF intelligence officer.
CB: Yeah. Not officer. Just -
LBSG: No WAAF on, yeah.
CB: She was asked -
LBSG: Well she’d have something to say. Things to tell you.
CB: They wanted to commission her twice but she refused because she wanted to be where the -
LBSG: Her mates.
CB: Where the action was. Yes. So thank you very much indeed.
LBSG: Well I’ll probably be -
CB: And –
LBSG: Talking, bored you to death.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Benny Goodman. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-07
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoodmanLS160407
PGoodmanLS1501
Conforms To
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
Germany
Description
An account of the resource
Benny Goodman grew up in London and hoped to become a pilot. He volunteered for the Air Force and was originally posted to RAF Abingdon as a ground gunner before beginning his flying training. After qualifying as a pilot in Canada, he became an instructor to Navy pilots. He survived his ship being torpedoed before he finally joined the Queen Mary in New York and returned to England. He flew operations with 617 Squadron and discusses a fire in the cockpit of his Lancaster, narrowly missing and mid-air collision and flying alongside a Me 262.
Format
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01:31:12 audio recording
51 Squadron
617 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Cook’s tour
Grand Slam
Halifax
Harvard
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Magister
Me 262
military discipline
military living conditions
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
perimeter track
pilot
RAF Abingdon
RAF Leconfield
RAF Silverstone
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
sanitation
Stirling
submarine
Tallboy
Tiger Moth
Tirpitz
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/785/9340/PTurnerHA1801.1.jpg
ee4d9c570a3678bd6343b3c5957fb700
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/785/9340/ATurnerHA180829.1.mp3
e8342d61f314b839367caf2cfbcc9535
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Turner, Bert
Herbert Alan Turner
H A Turner
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bert Turner (b. 1923, 1607412 Royal Air Force). He completed 31 bombing and supply operations as a flight engineer with 196 Squadron. He was shot down twice.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Turner, HA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MH: We’re now running. So, we just had Bert, thank you for giving your time up and also to Peter for giving his time up as well. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command. The interviewer is Martyn Hordern, that’s me. The interviewee is Herbert Turner. The interview is taking place at the Tri-Services and Veteran’s Support Centre, Hassell Street, Newcastle, Staffordshire. Also present is Peter Batkin, a friend of Bert. The date is the 29th of August 2018. So, we’ve obviously just, when we’ve asked you Peter, Bert sorry that your date of birth was the 23rd of December 1923. Where were you born?
BT: London.
MH: Whereabouts in London?
BT: 99 Ledbury Road, Paddington.
MH: Paddington.
BT: I think it’s Paddington. I wouldn’t be sure.
MH: No.
BT: It’s either Paddington or Kensington.
MH: What sort of family did you come from? A large family, a small family?
BT: Mum and dad and six kids.
MH: And where did you —
BT: I was the youngest but one.
MH: Right. I’m just opening my bottle of water of here so apologies for the fizz. Had your dad served in the First World War?
BT: Yes, he was in the RAF, in the RFC.
MH: Right.
BT: As it was then. I found a photograph the other night of my dad in his tropical kit for the Dardanelles.
MH: Right. So he’d served at Gallipoli.
BT: Hmmn?
MH: In Gallipoli. The Dardanelles. Wasn’t it Gallipoli, yeah?
BT: Ahum.
MH: James, dad was in Gallipoli as well.
BT: He, yeah, my dad and his three brothers fought in the First World War.
MH: So, what was life like growing up in the 1920s in London?
BT: We were alright. We probably, practically lived in Kensington Gardens and the parks and that. And they say, they say it was the hungry years. I didn’t know. I never went hungry. We always had something on the table. Mum was main cook and that was it. We, I went to school at St Stephens in Paddington. Did all my schooling there from the time I was three ‘til I was fourteen. Then I got a, I started work. I worked at Lyons in Cadby Hall, as an office lad. I didn’t like that. Went to McVities Biscuit factory and I finished up in the London Co -op as a delivery boy until I joined up.
MH: So —
BT: And that —
MH: At that point you were you were sort of like as I say a young teenager just before the war started.
BT: Yeah. Well, we in the Scouts and the Cubs and then I transferred to the ATC. 46F Squadron in Kensington. I’m trying to think. It must have been what? Nineteen 1940, 1939 I suppose, I joined the ATC. Of course, we went all through the blitz. But as, as I remember it all I ever wanted to do was fly. That was the be all and end all. I mean Ball and Mannock and all of those, they were my heroes and —
MH: And where did that come from. Do you know that?
BT: I’ve no idea because nobody [laugh] nobody else in the family wanted it but my my idea was I wanted to go straight in to the Air Force as a lad. A boy. And my mum wasn’t having that. Only rogues and vagabonds were served, went in the Services.
MH: What was your dad’s view having served in the First War?
BT: Dad never, dad never argued with mum. They were both short, small people. Mum was just under five foot and dad was just over five foot. About five foot two. But only slight people. Very. But I can’t remember them falling out. They never fell out in front of us.
MH: No.
BT: I’m not saying they didn’t fall out but —
MH: So so you mentioned —
BT: A pretty, a pretty average sort of life.
MH: Yeah.
BT: It was a family and that was it.
MH: How did, how did the Blitz affect you because obviously you were in London and it’s 1940?
BT: Not a, not a lot. We used to go, we used to go out fire watching at the shop in Barlby Road. We were, we used to go messaging with the ARP and that sort of thing. But it never seemed to, I know it sounds ridiculous but it didn’t seem to affect life.
MH: No.
BT: It, life went on.
MH: Yeah. But you could see the after affects I assume of the raids.
BT: You’d get up in the morning and there had been a bomb here or a bomb there sort of thing and you saw different things I mean, like toilets hanging on a wall and that sort of thing. It seemed remarkable. But my, my life just seemed to carry on sort of thing until I was seventeen and a half and then I went to Acton and volunteered. And mother wasn’t very pleased about that. ‘You’ll go quick enough but —’ she said, ‘They’ll send for you quick enough.’
MH: Yeah.
BT: I said, ‘Yes, but I want to go in the Air Force, mum.’ So, that was it.
MH: Did she have to sign you in at that age or were you old enough to sign yourself?
BT: No. I signed myself in [pause] and mother didn’t speak to me for ages. She didn’t, didn’t want to know. We’d already got, I’d already got two brothers in. One in the Air Force and one in the Army and mum said that was enough. But I said, ‘It’s got to come mum. I’ve got to go.’ So that was it.
MH: And the truth be told you wanted to go though.
BT: I wanted to go. Yes. Oh yes, I was. I thought it was going to be all over before I had my chance. But I went to Acton and volunteered and I had to go to Oxford for three days for, you know I don’t know what they called it, an interview with, and exams. And they told me I could go in as a flight mech and [pause] I could study to be a pilot if I wanted. Fair enough. And they called me up on August the 2nd 1942. I went to, from [pause] went to Penarth for seven days where they kitted us out. And from Penarth we went to Blackpool where I did my square bashing and, in civvy digs. We were there ‘til December I think it was and we marched out to Halton in December ’42.
MH: And that’s when you went to a, to a squadron then, did you?
BT: No. No. That was, that was training school.
MH: Right.
BT: I started my flight mech’s course and they put a notice up on orders. They wanted flight engineers. So we, a lot of us volunteered and we had to go down to London for our medicals and I was accepted. And about February we were posted to St Athans in Wales where we did our flight engineer’s course. And [pause] we had a funny experience there. We were all out on the, not the outside the hangars where the school was for a NAAFI break and all at once somebody says, about four or five hundred blokes stood around and all at once somebody shouted, ‘Jerry.’ And everybody drops to the ground and looked and three, three German aircraft flew across. The only thing was they were wearing RAF roundels [laughs] They were captured aircraft. But that was amusing. And then it was 1943, mother died while I was at St Athan and that was a blow. We [pause] we didn’t get over that. But I finished up, I passed out at St Athan. I think I got about sixty five, seventy percent. It was a pass anyhow through and I got my tapes and my brevet. We moved from St Athan to 1657 Con Unit at Stradishall, just outside Newmarket and while I was there I crewed up and met my crew, Mark Azouz, John Greenwell, Leo Hartman, John McQuiggan, Teddy Roper, Pete Findlay and myself. And we started flying Stirling 1s and we did our day circuits and bumps. Started night circuits and bumps. And we did a couple of circuits and bumps with the instructors on board and the skipper screened, turned around, he said, ‘I’m getting out,’ he said. ‘You take it around for one yourself and put it to bed.’ And my instructor said, ‘If he’s getting out I’m getting out. You’re on your own.’ [laughs] I thought fair enough. Off we went. Undercarriage up and away we went. Anyhow, skipper said, ‘Undercarriage down.’ And the undercarriage wouldn’t play.
MH: And this was the first time you’d flown solo as a crew.
BT: Yes. So well, we did all we could think of which I don’t suppose there was much. Told them downstairs that we were having trouble with the undercart. Anyhow, we eventually, we had to try to wind it down by hand. We got one leg down but we couldn’t get the other one. So, we got one leg down and that was tighter. They decided that we were going to have to land at Waterbeach. Then halfway to Waterbeach they decided the best thing was to land it on Newmarket Race Course. So, skipper put her down on Newmarket Race Course.
MH: And you got the one leg back up again.
BT: One leg up and one we, they managed, we managed to break the lock on the starboard, no, port, port leg and the skipper took her in and we landed and I think she was, she was a mess. And we all got out and climbed out and we were all standing on one of them rings and the ambulance driver came up and looked at us and he counted us and he turned around and, ‘What, nobody hurt?’ And we, nobody had a scratch so that was it. And then we were called in the flight office the next day and wingco was very annoyed. He told us we’d broken his aeroplane. That was, that was the end of that. Anyhow, we got away with it and we finished up we were posted to 90 Squadron at Tuddenham just before Christmas and we did, I don’t know, it was six or seven trips. We did a mine laying to Sylt, Kiel and that sort of thing and then at the time they were busy bombing the French factories for the Doodlebugs and that. And we did a couple of them. And then they posted us away to Tarrant Rushton to go glider towing and para dropping. We went [pause] we went to Tarrant Rushton, we were only there for oh, a couple of weeks, a couple of three weeks as I remember it. It doesn’t, doesn’t gel very easily but I don’t think we operated from there. We, we took over Keevil from the Americans in around about March ’44 and we were glider towing and doing supply drops in France for the SOE.
MH: What sort of stuff were you taking over to the SOE? Did you know what you were taking?
BT: No. No. It was all in canisters or baskets or anything. Occasionally we would have a couple of bods we’d take over. SAS people initially. A lot of them were Poles.
MH: Were there, was those trips quiet trips or —
BT: Sometimes, it was but we did [pause] D-Day came up and they decided that we’d got to, all aircrew had got to fly with sidearms so they issued us all with .38 pistols and you can imagine nineteen, twenty year old kids playing cowboys and Indians. But we woke up one morning and went out to an aircraft and they’d painted the white stripes for the invasion. That was, all came as such a surprise that nobody knew anything about it until it was done. But the mechs were standing on the wings painting these blooming white stripes with brooms. Then D-Day came up. We were ready to go on the 5th. But no. We were ready to go on the 4th and it was cancelled. And then they gave the order that we were going on the 5th and we took the paratroops over D-Day on the, we took off on the 5th you know.
MH: Yeah.
BT: Early morning to —
MH: What planes were you flying then?
BT: I beg —
MH: What planes were you flying then?
BT: Stirling 4s. Yeah. We took twenty paratroops over, dropped them off and that was it.
MH: What was that like that you were flying across then?
BT: Do you know, do you know Peter will tell you, I’ve said this so many times before. It was one of the quietest trips I remember.
MH: No flak. No —
BT: We, we saw barely anything. It, it surprised, it, it sounds ridiculous when you first say it but as far as I was, we were concerned it was one of the quietest of our trips.
MH: And the paratroopers. Do you remember what —
BT: The paratroops went in.
MH: What battalion were they from?
BT: Hmmn?
MH: Do you remember what battalion they were from or [pause] Do you remember what —
BT: No. No. No. No, we didn’t have a lot to do with them. Chatted to them and all this, that and the other, you know.
MH: British I assume.
BT: Yes. Yes. It, it was just another trip. And then we did a trip to France and a delivery for the SOE. Arms and whatever and we got there and when you went on these SOE things all you were looking for is five bonfires and we found it. And when we got there Jerry was waiting for us and it got nasty. First, we went in, dropped what we got, came out of it. There was a light flak gun busy after us but we got away with it and he never touched us and we flew in and checked for a hang up. Well, on a Stirling there’s a step and it’s across along the width of the bomb bay and the bomb bay on a Stirling is three different sections. That’s why it can’t take big bombs. And in this step there was three little glass windows only about the size of a tin. You know, a pea tin top and you held a torch against one end and someone looked at the other and if they could see the torch you hadn’t got, the light, you’d got no hang-ups. If they couldn’t you’d got a hang-up. And we had three hang-ups of containers.
MH: Just hadn’t been released from their old —
BT: They hadn’t dropped. So it was skipper turned around and said, ‘Well, they never touched us that time. We’ll take them back.’ Which thinking about it afterwards was a stupid idea but we didn’t think about that at the time and I said, ‘Well, somebody will have to give me a hand.’ I said, ‘Two of them I can drop myself but the other one’s the other end of the aircraft.’ So, ‘Well, McGuigan can drop the other one.’ So, fair enough. And when you drop them you just pull a bolt back and they drop. But they drop without a parachute. A parachute won’t open for some reason. I don’t know why. So anyhow, skipper goes and we go around and just as Leo said, ‘Drop them,’ dropped a, Jerry hit us and he put the starboard outer out of action, damaged the starboard inner and peppered us a bit. None of us were touched. Fair enough. We came out but the skipper shouted for me and I went up and he turned around and said, ‘The starboard outer won’t feather.’ I said, ‘Well, use the —’ [pause] he said, ‘The starboard’s running out.’ ‘Feather it.’ He said, ‘It won’t feather.’ I said, ‘Oh.’ So I said, ‘Get Pete out of his turret,’ because the torque on the prop on the starboard outer could possibly take the rear tail up. The fin and rudder. So we got Pete out of his turret and just as we got Pete out the props flew off somewhere over France and we flew back. We landed, landed at a place called Colerne just outside Bath. And they were, they were surprised to see us naturally so, but they were flying Mosquitoes and Spitfires. And I remember the CO there turned around and very unpolitely, turned round at the skipper and said, ‘I don’t know whether you’re a fool or a hero bringing this abortion in here.’ But anyhow the skipper got a DFC for it and we went back to Keevil.
MH: What, what was it like? You’ve had, you said your early flights were fairly sort of just dropping mines and that. I take it you’d never been really shot at had you in those first flights before you did your —
BT: Oh, we’d been shot at but not as badly if you know. It was just part of the —
MH: Yeah.
BT: Somehow or another it [pause] it didn’t seem to be a part of the equation that you got [pause] I don’t know why.
MH: And, and so and then you go to drop these supplies off and you go back round again.
BT: Yeah.
MH: And then you get hit.
BT: My point, thinking about it afterwards it was supposed to be a secret mission [laughs] Well, Jerry’s there shooting at you. These blokes have got to pick, down there have got to pick these containers up and they’re not light by any manner of means and disperse and get them off and Jerry’s on the doorstep. So all you’re doing really is handing it to Jerry.
MH: And what, what were your thoughts when the plane got hit?
BT: What can I do?
MH: Did you ever think you’d never get back?
BT: No. It never. Do you know, I can’t remember that at all. In any, I got, in any event I could never think of, it never entered my head that we were going to get hurt. Then after that it was we did a, there was an Operation Tonga as I remember it and it was a massive air drop to the south of France of containers for the French. Free French. That was, I think that was the only time that we flew then with other aircraft at daylight. Then I got married. I married a WAAF on the station. We got married on the Thursday. We had three days leave in London. We got, came, we went back and they shut the gates for Arnhem. And on the 17th of September we took a, took a Horsa to Arnhem and we went again on the Monday and it wasn’t bad. It wasn’t bad at all. The opposition we met was practically negligible. On the Tuesday we had apparently there was Air Ministry issued an order that all intelligence officers were to fly a mission. Well, my skipper was a Jew, as was the bomb aimer and the intelligence officer we had was a Jew so I suppose we would keep it in the family and he decided to come with us and of course they just gave him a helmet with a mic and a, earphones on. No, no oxygen mask or anything. And I used to go up second dickie when bomb aimer went down to the bomb aiming position but he’s sitting in my seat. So I’m halfway down the fuselage and in a Stirling that’s it. You can’t see anything. You’ve got to stick your head out the astrodome to look around sort of thing and flying along quite happily. Go to, got to the [unclear] where we turned in to the target and we were flying along quite happily and all at once, ‘There’s flak over there.’ [pause] ‘There’s flak.’ The skipper turned around. He said. ‘There’s flak where?’ He says, ‘Over there.’ He said, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘That’s port.’ He says, ‘And the other side’s starboard.’ ‘Yes,’ he said. ‘And it’s a long way away don’t worry about it.’ I thought to myself things are getting tricky. Jerry’s getting naughty. So I went down and stuck my head out the astrodome. Oh, well away in the distance is a few bursts of flak. We went in and we dropped our Horsa and went back home again. And then we went again on the Tuesday and Jerry got organised and it was rough. We had a rough and we were jocking through this lot the skipper turned around. He says, ‘Flak,’ he says, ‘I wish I’d got him with me now.’ He said, ‘I’d show him flak.’ We got away with it. They knocked us about a bit and we got a few holes in but we were fair enough and we, we got back and that was our thirtieth so we thought that’s it. No more. A rest. And on the Wednesday night they told us we’d got to do another one on Thursday. We’re short of crews. Fair enough. So on the Thursday morning we goes out to the aircraft and the skipper walks along and his scratching cats are missing and he’s got a bar on. What’s this? So, he anyhow, the skipper’s got his commission. Pilot officer. He got awarded a, promulgated with the DFC same day. So, we’re on for Arnhem, Thursday. Go out to the aircraft. Run it up. We couldn’t get revs and boost on. I think it was the outboard inner. One of them was playing up anyway. Doesn’t matter. Couldn’t get it to turn. ‘Take the spare aircraft.’ So you had to move everything that we were carrying to the spare aircraft and the rest of the lads had taken off so we were about twenty five, thirty minutes behind them taking off and skipper said to Leo, ‘Cut corners. Let’s get back with the lads and we can go over together.’ But we got there just as the lads were coming out and we had to go in on our own and it was rough. We got shot up a bit and it happened. And while we were over Arnhem this is a bit cheeky but still I went second dickie. McQuiggan, the wireless op went down the back because we were carrying baskets. Big baskets that had to go out and two Army dispatchers were flying with us and McQuiggan went down the back to supervise that.
MH: Were the dispatcher’s jobs to push the stuff off?
BT: Yeah.
MH: Was that their job?
BT: Yeah. Well, the Stirling had a big hatch at the bottom, in the, at the bottom of the fuselage near the tail where the paratroops dropped out and we used to have to push a, an A frame down and peg it in to stop the paratroop bags wrapping around the elevators. So McQuiggan’s down there doing that and we went through and as I say Jerry knocked us about a bit and we got through and McGuigan come up from the back and I went back to my own station and McGuigan come up and he, he’s covered in blood from head to foot. I looked and I thought where do you put a dressing? And I don’t know, ‘Where are you hit, Mac?’ He turned around and he said, ‘The elsan.’ I said, ‘The elsan?’ A shell must have burst under the aircraft, and the elsan, the chemical toilet is held down by three bolts and it had taken off and it had thrown it all over McQuiggan. And elsanal fluid is the same colour as Jeyes fluid and he’s —
MH: He’s not covered in blood.
BT: Anyhow, we got, we’re flying along and skipper asked Ginger for a course to Brussels. We’re flying on two engines. Well, we’re moving on two engines and I looked out the astrodome and I’ll never forget it. I looked up and there’s six fighters and I thought they were Tempests. And I wouldn’t mistake a 109 for a Tempest. A 190, yes. And I still say they were 190s. The Air Ministry said there were no 190s flying [unclear] Anyhow, they decided that we were going to be their meat and they, they came for us. Well, the rear gunner shot the lead aircraft down. The lead fighter blew up. I saw it with my own eyes. But then they got nasty and skipper gave the order to abandon aircraft and we baled out over a place called Niftrik and we, the Army picked us up. We got landed, four of us finished up in a farm house in Holland and, but they gave us egg and bacon. Then the Royal Horse Artillery picked us up, took us back to their camp, give us a night’s kip and put us in a lorry to go back to Belgium. And just as we were moving off, well we got to a crossroads somewhere or other and the Redcaps, Army Redcaps waiting there. ‘You’ve got to leave this and get out, sir.’ So we got out and we were lay in a ditch for I don’t know and in the finish we, we were walking across a field in Holland and the Americans picked us up and took us in to Veghel. And we got in to a Veghel, we spent the night there. And the next morning the Green Howards relieved that and the paras were coming out of Arnhem and I can’t think of the general, was it who was on the ground but he came out and there was a staff car waiting for him and he had, he went in the side car err in the staff car and before, there were five actually. Another crew bloke I don’t know he was now got in with us and we went in that to Brussels. We spent the night in Brussels and flew back to England the next day. We got in to England on the Sunday. The put us in a coach to take us to the Airworks in London and of course it was almost passing my home so I turned around to the driver and said, ‘You can drop me here. I’m going to see my dad.’ And, ‘You can’t.’ I said. ‘I’m going to.’ I said. So, I got out and I’m carrying a box like a wooden box, a tomato box with peaches and grapes from, and apples from Holland. And I got out the car at the, on the Western Avenue and I stopped a bloke in a car and he took me home [laughs] And I gave him a peach and oh he was quite happy. And I, we lived in quite a big house in London in Chesterton Road at the time and you had to go all round the house and in through the scullery door at the back and the dark passage from the scullery in to the kitchen. And just as I walked up the passage my dad come out of the kitchen and he took one look and passed out. And my brother was with him, he was on leave and he came out and he said, ‘What are you doing here? You’re dead.’ Thanks very much. They’d had telegrams, “Missing believed killed.” Because none of the boys had seen us. Seen us bale out.
MH: No.
BT: I had something to eat. My dad took me to Paddington Station. Well, my dad paid my fare back to Keevil. I never had that money off the Air Force either [laughs] And I’m standing on Paddington station, a sergeant. My trousers were ripped, I’d got no collar and tie, I was wearing a bit of orange supply chute around my neck, got no cap. I was wearing one flying boot and one flying boot that I’d cut down because I’d got an ankle wound and two MPs parading up and down in front of me and clearly they could see [laughs] And eventually they come across to me. ‘Sergeant, you’d best come with us.’ And they took me to the RTO and the RTO officer gave me a bed and they woke me up with a cup of cocoa. Put me on a train for Keevil and when I got back to Keevil of course I’d got no money. I got no money for the bus. One of the airman had to pay my fare. The bus driver wouldn’t let me on the bus without the fare. So, when the airmen paid my fare and I got back to Keevil and I thought well, I’d better go and see the wife, so —
MH: Bearing in mind you’d only been married a few days at that point.
BT: Yeah. I’d been married a week exactly when we were shot down and she’d been told that she was a widow. So anyhow, I walked in, up to the cookhouse and she come running out and the first thing she said to me was, ‘You stink.’ ‘Thanks very much.’ Anyhow, I finished up, I went up the billet and had a wash and had a shower and went to sick bay to get my ankle dressed. Hospital. So they put in the blood wagon and sent me over to Ely. And I’d hopped all over Holland, I’d hopped halfway across England, I got out the ambulance. I had to hop all over the hospital and they x-rayed it and all the rest and, yes. Fair enough. Nothing wrong. Dressed it and put it back and I went back to Keevil in sick bay. Well, my wife had to go in hospital for an operation about three days later so I turned around to the quack, I said, ‘Can I go in the blood wagon to see the wife at Ely?’ ‘You can’t,’ he said, ‘You’re, you’re a stretcher case.’ I thought thanks very much. So we, anyhow we finished up we stayed at, I was in dock for ten days I think and on the Saturday they let me out and I got, I was sent on survivor’s leave. And my wife came with me, and we had to travel from Keevil to Stoke on Trent. We got to Bristol and we had to change stations at Bristol. Anyhow, we got on the train and like all wartime trains it was packed and I’m standing there and the porter slung a case in and of course hit my ankle and didn’t know what it had done at the time of course. But I finished up the journey sitting on kit bags and God knows what. And when we got to my wife’s home my wife took the dressing off and had a look and it had knocked the scab of the wound. So, anyhow, I had my leave and went back and while we were on leave we, they’d moved from Keevil. I think they’d gone from Keevil to Shepherds Grove. And we got, when I got to Shepherds Grove we, I went and reported sick and I’m back in bed again. And anyhow it all went well in the finish and that was it.
MH: Could we just go back to when you got shot down and you parachuted out of a plane had you ever parachuted before? Had any training to parachute?
BT: Never had any training at all apart from someone saying, ‘Well, you put the chute on here and you pull this. Oh no, we never had parachute drill. We had dinghy drill but I never, we never had —
MH: What was dingy drill?
BT: Eh? They used to take you to the local swimming pool.
MH: Baths.
BT: Swimming baths, and they’d throw a seven man dinghy in the water upside down and you wear a flying suit and a Mae West and you’d got to go in there, swim in, swim to the dinghy and turn it upright. It’s quite a job and it was. On the bottom of the dinghy there’s two hand holds and you have to hold these hand holds, pull them towards you as much as you can and then jump on the bottom of the dinghy to turn it over.
MH: Right.
BT: You finish up underneath it and that was, that’s the only dinghy drill we did.
MH: And what height did you bale out at then?
BT: Around about three to four thousand feet.
MH: And did the parachute open straight away or did you have to have a rip cord?
BT: On, on rip cord.
MH: And did anything happen on the way down?
BT: Yes. Jerry tried to kill us.
MH: Would you mind just sort of giving a bit more detail to that?
BT: Well, we all, we all baled out. The rear gunner was killed in the aircraft. The navigator went out the front and I went out of the parachute hatch and we were shaking hands on the way down and a Jerry fighter decided we were his meat and it was very naughty. But he didn’t notice the Thunderbolt behind him and the Thunderbolt, American Thunderbolt shot him down. But they shot the skipper. The skipper was killed.
MH: On the way down.
BT: On the way down on his ‘chute. Well, he was wounded. He died in hospital. So I was told.
MH: And when, when the Germans were flying at you could you feel the bullets whizzing past or, or was you just, is that what —
BT: It’s no good saying yes.
MH: No.
BT: I can’t remember.
MH: But you knew what they were trying to do?
BT: We knew what, as I say the navigator and I, Ginger and I we flew, we dropped together. We dropped in a field together and because [pause] Germans wear field grey, well, we were lying there in a field and there is a grey bloke, a grey dressed bloke dressed, heading for us. And Ginger turned around, he said, ‘Bert, shoot him.’ I said, ‘You shoot him.’ He said, [laughs] ‘I’ve lost my gun.’ And it was a good job we didn’t shoot him. He was a Dutchman wearing one of them navy blue boiler suits that had been washed and washed [laughs] and just looked like Jerry field grey.
MH: So, that point where you dropped down were you, were you behind German lines then or were you —
BT: It was a very fluid situation. Nobody knew who was where or any, if you understand what I mean. There was no front line or, it was all the time I was in Holland you couldn’t say where you were. You were in safe ground sort of thing.
MH: Yeah.
BT: It, one minute you’d be talking to your own Army sort of thing. The next minute there were Jerries but [pause] we saw, we saw a Jerry, a Jerry Tiger tank. It came looking round. Smelling around. But we had nothing to with the job. Didn’t get involved with it.
MH: What was, what was going through your mind then? You’ve been shot down, you’ve been parachuted, the Germans are trying to kill you on the way down, you’re now not quite sure where you are. What was going through this young man’s mind?
BT: I don’t know what was going through my mind. All I knew, all I could say, think was we’d got to get to the Army. We’ve got to find it [pause] I know it sounds ridiculous but I can’t remember being scared. I should have been. I should have been but I can’t remember being scared. At times now I have nightmares but it didn’t seem to work then.
MH: No. I take it you weren’t given any training how to, you know if you parachuted over enemy territory how to evade the enemy.
BT: Pardon?
MH: Were you given any training to evade the enemy?
BT: We were given lectures. You know. What to do and what not to do but it —
MH: And how did that bear out in reality when you actually got there? Did it actually make sense?
BT: It didn’t bear out because there was no one to help us if you understand what I mean. We didn’t, we didn’t run in to civilians. The only time I saw any civilians during that period was when we landed and we were taken to a farmhouse. They took us. We went in to the farmhouse and there must have been the district in this farmhouse trying to, wanting us, getting round to us you know and they couldn’t do enough for us.
MH: No.
BT: But when, once the Army picked us up I don’t, I don’t think we spoke to a civilian until we got to Brussels.
MH: And your ankle injury. How did that, what was that? What had you done to yourself?
BT: Well, the only thing [pause] I don’t know. I was the only one who was scratched apart from Pete. Pete was killed. I didn’t realise I’d been touched until we landed and then when we dropped off I felt it. But whether [pause] the only thing I could think of was a piece of shrapnel. But where it went heaven knows. There was no, nothing there. Still got the scar for it.
MH: I can imagine.
BT: It wouldn’t heal. Once the scab had been knocked off it wouldn’t heal and I was in dock oh quite a while. I remember the Group MO came to, to visit and he looked at it and they were, our, our, the squadron doc was looking after me and he turned around and he said, ‘What are you doing?’ And he said, ‘You can’t do anything else,’ he says. ‘Just keep pouring it in.’ Yeah. But at the time I was under the weather. I was having boils and I had a Whitlow on my finger and that was, that was amusing. I I went home on leave with a Whitlow and that night, oh God I was in agony and my dad came in to me and he said, ‘What’s the matter?’ And I said, ‘My finger.’ ‘He says, ‘Go to the hospital in the morning.’ So I went to Du Cane Road Hospital and they had a look. ‘Oh yes. Sit down. Sit. I’ll send someone to you.’ So I sat down and two blokes came and they were rugby three quarterbacks I think. They were both about seven foot tall and fifteen stone like Peter and they said, ‘Are you the airman with a Whitlow?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Come on.’ And Du Cane Road is a teaching hospital and they took me in a theatre and there are all these seats up there and we sat down at this table and he turned around and he said, ‘Put your finger —', he put a block on the table, ‘Put your finger on there,’ he said, and he sprayed it with some blooming stuff and it was, yes, and he was chatting away quite happily and he picked up a scalpel and he banged on my finger and it just went thud and then he promptly cut it all the flipping way down and wrapped and turned round, ‘Come on.’ And we went to the plaster of Paris place and they put a splint on on my hand. Then they bound my hand up like a boxing glove and I said, ‘How can I get my jacket on?’ Fair enough. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘We’ll pin your jacket up, put you in a sling. Fair enough. Then he gave me two pills. He said, ‘You’ll want them tonight.’ So, I said, ‘Thanks very much.’ ‘Now, you can go home on the bus.’ ‘Thank you very much.’ So anyway, I went out of the hospital on the bus and I’m standing at the bus stop and these two old ladies standing there. I heard one say to the other, ‘That poor boy,’ she says, ‘I wonder how he got his arm — [laughs] I thought to myself, I wonder if they would smile if they knew it was a Whitlow. But that was it and then for the next four months nobody wanted to know me. I used to go back to camp and oh, nothing. Go away. Go on leave. And I was on leave on and off for about four months. Then what, I don’t know how true it is or what it is but they were on about something that we’d been behind enemy lines and we’d come back and if we went again we could be shot. What it is I don’t know but anyhow, it was—
MH: They didn’t want to be associated with you just in case you got shot down again or something.
BT: No. Anyhow, we they decided that we could [pause] I stayed on leave and I was home on leave with the wife at night. Just got in bed. Gone to bed. The doorbell goes so I go to the door. ‘Yes?’ Telegraph boy. Well, I’d still got a brother in the Army and I thought, Derek. No. “Flight Sergeant Turner.” Oh. “Return to unit.” Oh. The next day I go back to unit. ‘Wing Commander Baker wants you.’ ‘Oh, right.’ Goes to see Wing Commander Baker. ‘Ah, Turner. I want to do some flying.’ ‘Yes,’ What’s that to do with me? ‘But my navigator and my flight engineer are sick.’ I said, ‘Oh.’ ‘Well, Greenwell’s decided he’ll fly with me. You don’t mind do you?’ Well, how the hell do you say no to a wing commander? So, ‘Yes, sir.’ So fair enough. ‘We’re doing a cross country tomorrow.’ Fair enough. So we do a cross country with Wing Commander Baker. Now, my pilot was good. I’m not saying Wing Commander Baker was bad but my pilot was good. And the Stirling that they got ready for us they filled with Australian petrol. So, when we come in to land we’re down the runway. Oh dear. A few nights later he decides we’re doing a bullseye on Leeds so we do a bullseye on Leeds and they put the same petrol in the plane and we come down [pause] oh dear. And Wing Commander Baker turned round, he said, ‘That’s twice I’ve done that.’ And Ginger said, ‘Yes, I know sir. We were with you both times.’ ‘No need to be nasty, Greenwell.’ ‘No sir.’ Turner. 19th of February the tannoy goes. ‘Flight Sergeant Turner report to Wing Commander Baker.’ ‘Yes sir.’ Down to Wing Commander Baker. ‘Ahh Turner. My navigator is better so we don’t need Greenwell.’ So I said ‘Yes, sir.’ ‘But Morgan is still bad.’ ‘Yes sir.’ ‘Well, I want to operate.’ Oh dear. That’s a bad idea. ‘Yes.’ ‘You don’t mind do you?’ ‘No sir.’ ‘Right.’ So, December, February the 20th and we know the war’s nearly over and they’re trying to keep Jerry this side, this side of the Rhine. They don’t want him to reform on the other side of the Rhine so they’re knocking down all the bridges on the river to stop him and we got the job. So we flew to Holland and we attacked this bridge at the Waal. On the Waal at a place called Rees and it was a nightmare. It was the worst night. The worst trip I ever had. And then just to cap it all Jerry jet jobs were on the job. So we were shot up by the flak and shot down by a Jerry fighter.
MH: Jet fighter that shot you down was it?
BT: And out of the, out of an aeroplane I jumped again. I landed in a pig sty up to my flipping knees and I didn’t know whether I was in Germany or Holland or where I was. I’d no idea. I was on my own. And then a soldier came marching through the blooming door and he said, ‘Where is he?’ I said, ‘Who are you after?’ Oh, he said, ‘You’re English.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘I was told it was a Jerry.’ I said, ‘No.’ So we went back. I went back to them and I was, I was no how. I remember him giving me a glass of rum and they took us back to a place called Tilburg, I think it was. and flew us home in an air ambulance. But Wing Commander Baker and Flight Sergeant Gordon were killed. And that was the end of my flying career.
MH: What were your thoughts the second time you floated down from a plane?
BT: I couldn’t tell you what I thought. I don’t know. I don’t, honestly. As far as I know I was terrified and [pause] at —
MH: What sort of height did you drop from this time? Similar sort of height?
BT: Hmmn?
MH: What sort of height did you parachute from this time?
BT: About seven thousand feet.
MH: Oh, that was a bit further up.
BT: And we were pretty high.
MH: I take it the two that lost their lives were they did they lose their life in the plane or as a result of the plane crashing? Didn’t they get out or —
BT: I don’t know. I don’t know. All I remember is Baker telling us to bale out. The navigator, bomb aimer and the wireless op and myself got out.
MH: What was it like suddenly seeing these jet powered planes? I take it you’d heard about them before then or —
BT: No. It was the nearest thing I could put it down to it’s the same as looking at one of these sci-fi comics. You know. It just didn’t seem real.
MH: No. Extremely quick.
BT: Hmmn?
MH: Were they flying extremely quick?
BT: It seemed they were there and gone you see before you looked, you know. It [pause] it’s, it’s an episode I can’t really remember and I’m not sorry about that.
MH: No. I can appreciate that. So, at that point you then become a twice holder of the Caterpillar Club badge.
BT: I I never got the second one.
MH: Didn’t you? Oh right.
BT: No. I did get the first.
MH: Oh right.
BT: The first, on my jacket. Oh God. Excuse me.
MH: And I take it, do they come from the manufacturers of the parachutes?
BT: The first one [pause] this one the adjutant of the squadron applied for it and got it for all of us. But the second one I heard nothing at all.
MH: Can I take a picture of that before we finish, Bert? If that’s ok?
[pause]
MH: So they owe you one then.
BT: Yeah, they owe me, they owe me the train fare from blooming Paddington to Keevil. Well, my dad my dad paid.
MH: Yeah. Yeah. So, so that was the, that was it for your flying then after that second one.
BT: Yeah. I finished flying then. I went to [pause] I went to Gillingham in Kent in the office. I was tootling around there and the Warrant Officer Powell came to me one day. He said, ‘Ah, Mr Turner.’ I’ve got my WO for Arnhem. When I got back to Shepherd’s Grove, I think. Shepherd’s Grove. Not, yeah Shepherds Grove, the wing commander was a South African captain and he turned around and told, he said, and he turned around, he told me, ‘I’ve put you in for an award,’ he said, ‘They refused it. So you’re having your warrant. Money will do you more good anyhow.’ And that was it and I went to Gillingham and Warrant Officer Powell came to me. He says, ‘I’ve found a job for you.’ I said, ‘Oh, yes?’ ‘Yes.’ He says, ‘There’s an orderly room at Roborough.’ He said, ‘I want you to go there and run it.’ I said, ‘Well, I’m not —’ ‘Oh, you’ll manage.’ He said, ‘You’ll manage.’ He said, ‘You’re in charge.’ I said, ‘Am I in charge?’ He said, ‘You’re the only one.’ So I went to a little aerodrome just outside Plymouth. A place called Roborough, and I think it was run by ex-aircrew. Every, everywhere you looked there were aircrew that had finished. Of course, the war had finished and it was, it was, it was an eye opener. We went there and as I say I was orderly room clerk and station warrant officer. The CO was a chap called Hill. Henry Horace Hill. He was a flight lieutenant observer and he used to mess at Plymouth and he used to travel by motorbike and sidecar from Roborough to Plymouth.
MH: When did your demob come along then?
BT: Yeah. Then demob came and I went bus conducting. I went down the mines. I tried, I went to oh, TI Industries, Simplex and I couldn’t settle anywhere. I don’t know why. But then I went to a place Cartwright and Edwards to, on a pot bank. And I started dipping and finished up on the kilns and that was it. I finished up. I did thirty five years working for a pot bank.
MH: Any thought of going back to London? Was it always that your wife —
BT: It’s never bothered me. I like, I’ve been down to visits but when mum died the family broke up. It, of course the problem was we were all away from home at the time. I mean my brothers were in the Air Force, in the Army and I married as I say and I came up to Stoke on Trent. Derek married and he went to Manchester. We corresponded for a bit and then then somehow or other it, you know how it is. Things don’t go as you plan and we lost touch. I don’t know where any of my family are now [pause] No idea. But [pause] I haven’t, I don’t miss London at all.
MH: So when we just go back to when you, just for my benefit and I suppose the people who will listen to this interview. What was your, what did your job entail on the Stirling? What was your —
BT: Main, mainly you were watching petrol consumption and changing tanks.
MH: To balance the plane out and —
BT: No. For, a Stirling’s got fourteen petrol tanks.
MH: Right.
BT: At least. It can fit another six. I know it sounds stupid but it is. There’s a little bomb bay at the root of the wings and it’s room for three bombs. Or three petrol tanks in each.
MH: Each side.
BT: Wing each side. We had, one holds three hundred and twenty gallons, two hundred and forty and then as it gets towards the it’s [pause] [unclear] of petrol but you had to change tanks. But you always got rid of your small tanks first.
MH: Now then, you ended up flying, was it Stirling 4s was the last Mark you flew?
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
MH: Now, were they, how did they differ from the, I think you said you flew Stirling 1s at the start, didn’t you?
BT: Well, there was no front turret and there was no mid-upper turret on a Stirling 4. They took the turrets out. And there was a big hole cut towards the rear of the fuselage where the paratroops jumped or dropped out.
MH: And that, the plane was principally marked as a Mark 4 because they did it for parachutists and —
BT: Yeah.
MH: Dropping supplies.
BT: Yeah.
MH: And what have you.
BT: Yeah.
MH: So did you lose some of your crew from when you first started?
BT: Oh yes. We lost a mid-upper gunner. Yeah. A mid-upper gunner that we’d [pause] Teddy Roper. We lost him. I never heard what happened to Ted. He, he was an Essex boy as I remember. Essex or Kent. And he had a girlfriend Penny [ Lopey ]
MH: The things you remember.
BT: The things you think of.
MH: Yes. And did you keep in touch with any of your crewmates after the war?
BT: The last one, Leo. The last one.
MH: Yeah. Leo Hartman.
BT: Leo Hartman. He died at Christmas.
MH: Oh dear.
BT: Yes. I’ve got a copy of his logbook.
MH: Was that the logbook you mentioned to me earlier on when we first met?
BT: Hmmn?
MH: That you had lost your logbook.
BT: Yeah.
MH: And you said that you had a copy of one of your crewmate’s.
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
MH: So, you kept in touch with Leo all the way through up until he passed away.
BT: Well, we did. Just Leo didn’t go on the last one. Leo. Leo, when we came back from Arnhem Leo went to London and he never, he never, he went to Uxbridge and stayed there ‘til the end of the war ‘til he was demobbed. But we kept in touch. I kept in touch with Pete Findlay until he died. But McQuiggan wasn’t interested and Ginger, the navigator he was too far away. He was up, he lived at Fencehouses in Durham.
MH: Right.
BT: That way. And we went in, he went to take up, to a pub. Became a landlord I believe. He got a DFM for the trip we did to France and he died of cancer. Thirty odd years. He was sixty something when he died. And I I met Pete [Bodes] brother and his wife.
MH: That was your rear gunner.
BT: Yeah.
MH: Was that a difficult meeting?
BT: Yes. They want particulars and it’s not nice. Did he get, did it hurt? I don’t think being hit by a cannon shell hurts. But, he had a girlfriend on the station, a WAAF and she had that you know that purple mark on her face.
MH: A birthmark.
BT: Yeah. And it was rather bad and she’d been up to, for some reason and [pause] and I had [pause] when you get talking like this it, it comes back.
MH: Like I said before if there are things you don’t want to talk about then just say.
BT: But, no. It [pause] it’ll pass.
MH: So, we’ve got all these thirty one, thirty two missions that you’d fly in the end.
BT: Thirty one. Yeah.
MH: What was life like in between? You watch these television films of, sort of flying boys down the pub and then back to reality.
BT: I get so cross at times when I watch these films. It’s, I mean I watch the Dambusters and I’m ready to hit someone.
MH: Because it’s not how it was.
BT: They get it so wrong. Well, I mean they’re, they’re supposed to have advisors and when they get the basics wrong it’s time to pack up. Now, you take the Dambusters. It’s nothing. It’s wrong, but it’s nothing. They’re having egg and bacon before they go. They sit down for a meal in the film. You didn’t have egg and bacon before you went. You had egg and bacon when you came back and blokes used to joke, ‘Can I have your egg if you don’t come back?’ And if you look, you watch there’s three Lancasters taking off in line abreast on a grass aerodrome. On a grass airfield. Carrying mines? They’d dig in.
MH: You’d take off one after the other on a hardstanding. A hard strip.
BT: Used tarmac runways. You know, I mean it’s only [pause]
MH: But that’s film for you, isn’t it?
BT: Yeah. Oh yeah.
MH: I think we’ve, we’re probably coming very close to the tape running out. Not that there’s a tape
BT: Yeah.
MH: But another fascinating hour and a half. Is there else that you think you need to tell me? You want to tell me.
BT: I don’t think so. It’s, I mean, I’ve always [pause] I’ve always thought I had a good war. I had a pretty clean war. It’s only when I think of the last op that I get a bit maudlin. It, I was lucky. But I met some decent people. I, we go, we are very fortunate we’ve, we’ve got in with a group, “D-Day Revisited,” and we go to France every June. And we go to Arnhem because I make a point in September of going to Arnhem and going and seeing the lads. I take a wreath to the skipper and he’s still the skipper seventy odd years later. But we go to, go to a little village in France, Arromanches and we were there this year and Pete turns around to me and said, ‘Bert, two blokes here want to shake hands with you.’ I thought right. Turned around and there’s a group captain and an air vice marshall. And I turned around to him, I said, I pointed to groupie, I said, ‘That’s God.’ I said, ‘And that one I don’t know.’ But I mean they’re nice chaps. They’re, they talk to me as if we’re equals and all the rest. You wouldn’t dream of it happening [laughs] I mean, I don’t, I don’t think I spoke to our group captain, and I couldn’t tell you his name, in all the time I was on the squadron.
MH: Different times.
BT: But we meet these chaps and they seem to be interested.
MH: I don’t think they seem to be, I think they are Bert. I think they are being polite.
BT: Did you say you wanted a photograph?
MH: Right. Right. So, I think I’ve asked all the questions. Thank you for giving your time. I know there’s some difficult things we’ve talked about but as you say, you know —
BT: I’m sorry if it’s been boring.
MH: Quite the opposite. It’s been fascinating. Its been absolutely fascinating. It’s been a privilege to sit and listen to you.
BT: It’s —
MH: And I think the important thing is in the future people will be able to listen to your words.
BT: Oh.
MH: And the things that you did, and I think we have to remember you were a twenty something young man, weren’t you?
BT: Well, this is it. We were. We were kids. We were, we were enjoying ourselves. We, it was a big adventure.
MH: Yeah. When you get older you start to look back and think well as you get older and experience affects you do different things.
BT: Oh, that’s a different matter, isn’t it?
MH: Yeah. It is. Right. I’m going to turn the tape recorder off. We’ve been going for oh an hour and twenty six minutes so its twenty five past, twenty six minutes past two.
BT: Oh, are you alright, Peter?
PB: I’m alright. Yeah.
MH: Peter has been very well behaved. I’m very grateful, Peter for your time as well.
PB: You’re welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bert Turner
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Martyn Horndern
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATurnerHA180829, PTurnerHA1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Bert Turner was a member of the Air Training Corps before the war. He volunteered for the Air Force and was called up 2 August 1942. After training he became a flight engineer with 196 Squadron. He flew some bombing and mine laying operations before the squadron was transferred to Transport Command. He remembers dropping supplies to the Special Operations Executive and paratroopers on D-Day. His Stirling was hit by anti-aircraft fire on a supply drop over France but they managed to return to England. He was later shot down by Fw 190s over Holland. His rear gunner was killed he describes how they were attacked while on their parachutes. He was wounded in the ankle by shrapnel. He evaded and met up with Allied troops. After returning to operations after a lengthy convalescence, he was shot down a second time by a Me 262 over Germany. He discusses the role of the flight engineer on Stirlings. When Bert returned to London he decided he was so close he would go and visit his father not knowing that he had received the telegram saying he was missing presumed killed. When he saw his son he thought he was a ghost and passed out.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Dorset
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
Netherlands--Arnhem
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Format
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01:23:36 audio recording
Contributor
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Julie Williams
1657 HCU
196 Squadron
90 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
Caterpillar Club
crewing up
evading
flight engineer
Fw 190
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
Me 262
medical officer
military ethos
military service conditions
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
perception of bombing war
RAF Keevil
RAF St Athan
RAF Stradishall
RAF Tarrant Rushton
RAF Tuddenham
shot down
Special Operations Executive
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/128/1278/AAbbottsC151015.2.mp3
cc3222384b5959170d324f9b72e8d83f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Abbotts, Cyril
C Abbotts
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. The collection consists of one oral history interview and one service and release book related to Warrant Officer Cyril Abbots (b. 1924, 1583753 Royal Air Force). Cyril Abbotts volunteered for the Royal Air Force and trained as a pilot in Canada. On his return to Great Britain he flew operations as a flight engineer with 57 Squadron from RAF East Kirkby in 1945 and later converted from Lancasters to Lincolns. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Cyril Abbot and catalogued by IBCC staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-15
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Abbots, C
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: So today I’m with Cyril Abbott and we are at Malvern in Worcestershire and it is the 15th of October 2015 and we’re just going to talk about his time in the RAF. Cyril, could you start off by talking please about your, family early, your earliest times you recollect?
CA: I was born in 1924 in a place called Princes’ End, Tipton. I lived with father and mother, with my grandparents. My mother was one of a large family, unfortunately she died when I was six and for the next two years we were looked after by my Grandma until Dad remarried. My mother and father were, had a house built in a village Coseley, which was about two miles away but we never moved there because of my Mum’s death. But having remarried we moved as a family, mother, or I should say step-mother, and father and my sister Doris who was four years older than myself. And we moved to a house in Bradleys Lane Coseley. I went to junior schools in Princes End, Tipton and at the age of eleven I passed scholarship and entered Dudley Grammar School where I was educated for the next five, six years. I left school in ‘39 and went out to work with W and T Avery at Smethwick as a engineering apprentice. I didn’t like work so at the first opportunity I volunteered for the Air Force, for aircrew, and having had all the two days of tests at Digbeth, Birmingham, I was accepted as a recruit and sent home and told to wait until I heard from the RAF. I was a bit of a nuisance to my father and mother because every day I used to come home from work and say ‘Has the letter arrived?’ and nothing had appeared and I really caused a bit of grief. But eventually the letter arrived ordering me to report to ACRC at Lords’ Cricket Ground, London. I travelled to, down to London with a fellow from the village who was also joining up, I think it was the first time we’d ever been away from home by ourselves in the whole of our lives but we arrived at Lords’ and the cricket ground was full of recruits, you couldn’t see a blade of grass basically. But they formed us up in groups of about forty and marched us off to Seymour Hall baths where they told us to strip off and swim a hundred yards. This rather shook us I believe ‘cause having to swim without a costume, but we did this and those who could swim the hundred yards were pushed to one side of the bath, and those who couldn’t swim went to the other side. We found out later that the non-swimmers were sent off to RAF Cosford to learn to swim, if I’d have known that I would have done the same [laughs] because Cosford was within about twenty miles of home. But still, we, we were billeted in flats around St John’s Wood, waiting for postings to ITW. Eventually I was posted to 8 Wing ITW at Newquay, Cornwall where I spent the next three to four months school work. In actual fact I can remember the flight commander was a Flight Lieutenant Paine, he was an ex solicitor and the Squadron Leader I think was a man named Fabian, who was a English international footballer amateur. But, and the two PTIs was Corporal White and Corporal Beasley, one was a Londoner, a real Cockney, and they used to take us out on cross country runs. Because one day I, I decided I didn’t want to go, so we had to get changed and set off and I drifted to the back and at the nearest public toilets I disappeared into it, little realising that Corporal White was running right at the back and he caught me [laughs] and I was taken in front of the squadron commander and given three days CB, confined to barracks, but at the end of the, I think it was about twelve weeks of school work were finished and we were waiting then to, for postings and I eventually was posted to RAF Sywell for familiarisation, twelve hours in a Tiger Moth. Again, I remember the instructor was a Flight Lieutenant Bush, I think he could have owned the flying school which had been taken over by the RAF, but we did, we did about ten to twelve hours flying around in Tiger Moths to see if whether we were compatible with flying and then at the end we were posted to Heaton Park, Manchester which was a receiving centre for people waiting basically to go overseas. I mean there were literally hundreds of UT aircrew there and we used to have to attend in the morning when they would read out lists of people with the postings and you had to answer in a certain manner to signify that you’d understood the shouted instructions. Initially I’d received a posting to South Africa, Rhodesia for flying training and we went up to Blackpool to receive the inoculations required, and having received these inoculations we were sent back to Heaton Park where we found out that we weren’t going to South Africa after all. I was sent to Canada and we, we sailed from the River Clyde, Greenock, or something similar on the Queen Elizabeth, the original Queen Elizabeth one, and I think it was about three days and four nights journey which I didn’t like, I don’t, I’m not a, I don’t like sailing, I don’t like water and it was a welcome sight to go through the harbour bar at New York to get inside the docks because as we went through the bar and they closed it the ship lit up because we’d sailed in darkness over, through the Atlantic, and as soon as we entered the, the New York dock area all the lights came on the ship. I mean New York was lit up as you see it on the films, I mean we hadn’t seen lights for three years. Eventually we, we docked in Pier 91 next to the burnt-out Normandy which had been, it had gone on fire and had capsized in the dock next to us, and it was still there. But eventually we were taken off the boat and we went under the river to New Jersey to get a train to go up to Monkton, RAF Monkton in Canada. We had to pass through the customs between America and Canada, and we stopped on the American side and one or two of us shot off because we were near to a small town and got a glass of beer, and we’d got to drink this very quickly and we didn’t realise the American beer was practically frosty, it was very, very cold. But we, eventually we arrived in Monkton, and we were there for maybe a week or so before we were sent west to the flying schools and I finished up at 32 EFTS, RAF Bowden in Alberta, I mean we could see the Rockies on the horizon, as we drove from the station, Innisfail was the station, why I know that is because I was reading a book by an ex Worcestershire cricketer, Cheston, who had trained there as well, and I picked up the name Innisfail I’d forgotten, but as we drove up from the station to the aerodrome all the training planes were lined up with their tails towards us and we all thought God, we’re all going to be fighter pilots, they looked like fighter ‘planes ‘cause they were all Fairchild Cornell which was a low wing plane. We were there for a period of time, I think we got in about seventy or eighty hours, and I soloed quite quickly after about five hours and during the training I realised that I would never become a fighter pilot because I didn’t like aerobatics. I always remember being sent up to practice spins and to do this you climbed to about three or four thousand feet and then spun down, and pulled out and climbed back and did it again. But every time I went to do it I’d get practically to the point of stall, at which point I was supposed to kick in rudder to go right or left and my nerve went so I pushed the nose down and climbed another thousand feet until I finished up at about ten thousand feet before I forced myself to spin. But having done it the first time and realised I could get out of trouble it wasn’t so bad, but aerobatics I just did not like. So I made my mind up then that I would never become a fighter pilot, I’d go for twins or multi engines. Having completed the elementary training we were posted to service flying training and I was posted to a place called RAF Estevan in Saskatchewan it was right on the American border just a few miles on the Canadian side but it was more or less in the middle of the dustpan, everything was covered with dust, there was a wind at all times and it was just blowing this dust and coating everything. The dormitories had got double-glazing with a mesh screen to try to keep this dust out, but they were flying Ansons there for training and we had to have a check to see whether our leg length was sufficient to be able to apply full rudder in the event of an engine failure. Well I didn’t like the station I thought I’m going to do my best to get away from here, so when I came to do my test I put, extending my to get full rudder and I gradually slipped down in the pilots’ seat so that I couldn’t see over the top of the board, dashboard, so that I failed the test. I didn’t realise that I could have been washed out of pilot training but I was posted away from Estevan to RAF Moose Jaw at Saskatchewan to fly Tiger Moths. The Anson hadn’t got a moveable rudder pedal whereas the Oxford had, you could wind them in to suit your leg length. The Oxford had got a bad reputation for killing people. It was a very difficult aeroplane to fly and they said that if you could fly an Oxford you could fly anything. And I took to the Oxford, I soloed after about five hours again and from then on it was just train, train, train until we eventually finished, I think we did something like about a hundred and fifty hours flying, and it came, the wings, the graduation ceremony, and I believe we were presented with our wings by Air Vice-Marshal Billy Bishop who was a Canadian fighter pilot in the First World War. I believe that it was him but we had already sewn wings on our uniforms and stripes on our arms if we were becoming sergeants, but we had to parade without, without wings or stripes on. But then having graduated, we had, we were given a posting back to Halifax, to get the boat back to England. We were allowed, I think, forty eight hours to have a leave in either Quebec or Montreal on the way back. I can’t remember now whether we were in Quebec or Montreal, but we eventually got back to Halifax and boarded the French liner, Louis Pasteur, to come back and it was a terrible journey. Since we were now supposed sergeants capable of looking after ourselves on the ship some of us were posted as assistant gunners on the anti-aircraft guns which were put about ten feet above the boat deck on a little platform with a rail around it to stop you falling off. And we had an Oerlikon cannon to look after. I mean we’d never seen a firearm but we’d got a naval man as the gunner and we were just there to help, But we always said the Louis Pasteur was a flat bottomed boat because it rolled and rocked like nobody’s business and there were literally thousands on the boat, the conditions were terrible, but every morning at about twelve o’clock if I remember rightly, we had a rendezvous with a Coastal Command aircraft so that when it came time we had to close up the guns in case it wasn’t an RAF plane, but bang on the dot it would appear out of the clouds, circle round for about half an hour, and then off it would go and we’d plough on. I mean we were not escorted it was just a, a quick dash across and I must admit I saw more U boats in the sea, that on that journey, than the German’s had got, every wave was a U boat. [laugh] But eventually we arrived at Liverpool, and we disembarked and were shipped to RAF Harrogate, the Majestic Hotel we were billeted in, and there were literally thousands of pilots, bomb aimers and navigators there. We just, we just didn’t know what was going to happen to us. I mean they came round I think twice, once asking for volunteers to change to glider pilot training. I mean those that did, that accepted it, I think most probably went in at Arnhem. But I being frightened, I decided I would stay and get an aeroplane with engines. So I was there for quite some time and eventually I was sent, we had um, because we’d been in Canada, living the life of luxury, they sent us up to Whitley Bay, Newcastle under the Army to have a month toughening up, and everything was done at the double. I was given a rifle and a band to cover my sergeant’s stripes, we used to have to wear these because the instructors were corporals and privates of the commandos and they gave us a real tough time. Route marches of about twelve miles, my feet were sore, but that was completed and we came back to Harrogate. They just didn’t know what to do with us. So we, eventually I ended up at RAF Bridgenorth, under canvas, and we always said we were draining an air commodore’s farm because we were digging ditches all the time and there were, there were Australians, and other Commonwealth aircrew with us and they used to, to show how tough they were, they’d sleep out in the open without a tent, until they got wet once or twice, [laugh] but we were there most probably two or three weeks and back again to Harrogate. And then I went on airfield control at RAF Gamston, just outside Worksop, acting as traffic control watching the Wellingtons, it was an OTU unit, and we were there [indistinct] at night on flare path duty and the control hut flashing greens or reds as required with an Aldis lamp. While I was there, I became friends with one or two of the screened pilots so I managed to get a few hours in on a Wellington. At the end of the, at the end of the time Gamston was closed down and the ‘planes moved to other OTUs so I got a few hours flying with the screen people taking these aeroplanes to the stations. The funniest part was we landed at one, we had a plane which went round all the aerodromes picking up the screened crews to take them back to Gamston, a Wellington, and it was very funny we landed one control, or pulled up at the control tower and shut the engines down waiting for the people to be picked up and out trooped from the Wellington, about eighteen people and the control officer’s jaw dropped when he saw all these people coming out [laugh] but it was quite, we stood, down the Wellington hanging onto the geo, geodetic structure, it was quite funny. From Gamston, I eventually was posted, oh yeah, I think I went back to Harrogate again and there I was volunteered to do an engineers’ course at St Athan down in South Wales. There was no chance of becoming an official pilot because they hadn’t got enough aeroplanes and there was too many people. So we were volunteered to do an engineers’ course at St Athan on the Lancaster systems, which we did about six weeks just to get the fundamentals of the system. And having completed that I was posted to sixteen 54 HCU at RAF Wigsley in Lincolnshire, where I was going to get crewed up with an ex OTU pilot and crew who wanted an Engineer, so we walked in, as engineers we walked into an office where there were pilots sitting around and the first person I saw was a man who’d been on the course immediately in front of me at Moose Jaw, a flying officer, he was a Pilot Officer Coates and we made contact and starting talking, he said ‘Well I’m looking for an engineer’ I said, ‘Well I’m an engineer but I’m also a pilot’ he said ‘Do you want to come and fly with me?’ ‘Yep’, and that’s how I joined Pilot Officer Coates’ crew because we knew each other. We completed a number of hours on the, at the heavy con unit, the conversion unit, and we were posted as a crew to 57 Squadron at East Kirkby.
CB: So when was this exactly?
CA: Well I think it was in either February ’45, because I wasn’t on the squadron long enough to be able to be awarded the Bomber Command Clasp which I thought was a bit em, bit naughty of them, I can come to that later. Well we were introduced to Wing Commander Tomes who was the Squadron Commander and I think Squadron Leader Astall although I’m not sure about that name. And we were more or less sent off to go and do some practice flying which we thought we’d done enough with the heavy con unit but it wasn’t good enough for the squadron. So we did quite a few cross countries and bombing practice at Wainfleet. And one day I was, I think most likely the last one in the engineer’s office and I was about to go for tea, and as I was walking out the engineer officer shouts, ‘Cyril, what are you doing tonight?’ I said ‘I’m going to have a beer why?’ he said ‘No you’re not, you’re flying.’ He said so and so has called in, his engineer’s gone sick, so they want an engineer so you’re flying as a spare bod on Flying Officer Jack Curran, who was an Australian pilot, he was short of an engineer so I was going with him and that night we went to Luetzkendorf which was the first operation, our rear gunner had also been made a spare bod and he went as a rear gunner with another crew. But Jack, Jack Curran had been shot down about two months previously and had got back so he was, he was a bit nervous as a pilot, he gave me a bit of jitters, because once we crossed, if I remember rightly, once we crossed over the Channel and got to the other side he proceeded to weave all the time and it made a heck of a mess of my petrol consumptions. But the thing that I always remember, was having got to the target, was the different colours or shades of red that there are, or were, I’d never seen so many different shades. Of course I mean I didn’t realise what was happening I mean I was, I’d got bags and bags of window which I was pushing [unclear] down the chute like nobody’s business thinking they were saving me but they weren’t they were saving the people coming behind me. But I pushed packets of it down, I even jammed the ‘chute once I had to get a big file from out of my kit, my tool kit and try and clear it and the file went down the ‘chute as well so that if that hit anybody downstairs they would have had a headache. But eventually we got, we came back and as we neared East Kirkby, Jack had called in to ask for landing instructions and we were told to vamoose, scatter, it was either an intruder in the circuit or something but we scattered like nobody’s business heading towards Wales, and on the way, we were told to make for RAF Bruntingthorpe which we eventually reached and Jack landed the Lanc’ alright, we parked it and were taken into a room for a bit of a debrief, given something to eat and then we were taken to beds in the dorms, in the Nissen huts. And I was, I was lying there on the bed, I couldn’t get to sleep, I suppose it was the adrenalin still coursing through the veins, but I was smoking away like nobody’s business, and I woke up the man in the bed next to where I was and he sat up and he saw I was a flight sergeant, he saw my tunic on the bed, so he said ‘What’s happened?’ so I just explained that we’d been diverted there and we were talking, he was a corporal engine fitter and he looked at me and I looked at him quite intently as if we knew each other. So eventually one or other said ‘Were you ever in Canada?’ and I said ‘Yes, you were at Moose Jaw, were you at Moose Jaw?’ ‘Yes’, he’d been an Engine Fitter out on the flights at Moose Jaw and had been posted back to, from Canada and he was working, was working at Bruntingthorpe on the Wellingtons. Well eventually we were given the all clear to go back to East Kirkby and, although it was forbidden, the squadron pilots always shot up the aerodrome having taken off. So we, we took off and joined a queue of people waiting to go down the runway and ignored it which we did. The station commander went mad and by the time we got back to East Kirkby the squadron commander was waiting for us and he proceeded to tear us off a strip. ‘They were OTU pilots being taught to fly safely and you people go down and show them what not to do’ [laugh] still it was Lancaster below zero feet going at about two hundred miles an hour is something, it’s really exhilarating, but still. Um, oh yeah, a few days later we went to Pilsen as a crew, Fred Coates the pilot and the rest of the crew, I mean he’d already done two spare bods as a pilot getting the idea of what happened, and Johnny the rear gunner had been, but the, I’d been but the others hadn’t so it was all new to them, but us old hands [laugh]. Well we went to Pilsen and our navigator was a graduate and he was a very meticulous navigator, very good, but very meticulous. I mean when we were flying you’d hear his voice come over the, the intercom, ‘What speed are we supposed to be flying at?’ ‘About two hundred and twenty, why?’ he said ‘I want two hundred and twenty five, nothing else, two twenty five is the airspeed.’ So I spent minutes trying to get the, the right speed. And he’d come through, ‘What course are you steering?’ ‘Why?’ He said ‘You’re two degrees out’, oh he was a, he was a menace [laugh]. But on the way, it’s only in latter life that I’ve realised this, but it was his first trip, it was most of us second or third and he was navigating and he said ‘We’re too early, we’re going to get to target too early’ so Fred said ‘Well what do you want to do?’ So Marsh says ‘We’ll do a dog leg, turn, and he gave us a course to turn to the left, to port, and flew out for a few minutes and then to come back into the, into the stream and go, head toward the target again, we’d lose the required minutes. And like fools Fred and I did this, but during the flight we were getting, we were getting, bumped about a bit and we couldn’t understand this because there was no flak to blow us around but we’d get jumped up and down, it would last a minute and then die down and then about a few minutes later again. We couldn’t fathom out what it was, but it’s only in latter life that I’ve realised what it was, because we got to Pilsen and back okay, and then we were put on a daylight to go to Flensburg, and I mean the RAF didn’t flew, didn’t fly in formation, they just got into a gaggle and went. So we joined the bunch and the idea was to get into the middle of the stream, so you kept lifting yourself up a bit, move over and then gradually drop down and force the man underneath to move out of the way so that you were doing this all the time. And occasionally we’d get this bump and it’s only as I say in latter life that I realised that at night when we got these bumps it was the slipstream of planes in front of us, that I never, I never saw a plane during flying at night but we must have been very, very close because it showed up during this daylight. But we went to Flensburg and it was aborted we couldn’t bomb, why we were never told but I did see a Messerschmitt 262 I think was the jet fighter, something came, went through the formation like nobody’s business but we’d got Mustang fighter escort they were most probably about ten thousand feet above us, but we did see them come down and go through the formation, on the way down to the deck whether they’d, they went down to er, hit some of these two five twos taking off, two six twos, but that was quite a sight to see these little, little bits going through the, through the formation. But my war ended with that aborted raid on Flensburg. We were thinking we should be going to Berchtesgaden but all the, the higher ups of the squadron did that, they didn’t let the lower lads do it. Then after the , after the war I flew on Lincolns, 57 Squadron were given three Lincolns initially to carry out service trials on them and by this time our pilot, Fred Coates, had departed. He’d been a police constable before the war and since they wanted the police in peace time to build up again they got Class B releases, or they were allowed to take Class B release. So Fred had just married his Canadian girlfriend who’d come over here to marry and 57 Squadron was one of the squadrons that were going out on Tiger Force to the Far East but Fred said no he wasn’t going to go, he’d get his Class B which he did. And we had another pilot, a Flight Lieutenant Strickland, who was posted into us to take over the crew. He came up I think from Mildenhall, I can’t remember which group they were, but he’d been an instructor in Canada for a number of years and he was very meticulous with his flying, everything was perfect and he kept the rest of us on top line. We flew the Lincolns, we’d got three and I think Mildenhall station they’d got three, we had lots of trouble with engine failures where as Mildenhall had airframe failures, rivets popping and things like that so it was quite, it was quite stressful flying these Lincolns. I’ve got a write up.
CB: We’ll stop there just for a moment.
CA: Yeah, I’ve got a write up actually,
CB: So we’ve stopped for a comfort break, and you were talking about Lincolns, you took on Lincolns?
CA: Oh yeah.
CB: You took on Lincolns. What happened then?
CA: Well, with the Lincolns, we as I say we’d got three and I since found that there was a Flight Lieutenant, Flight Lieutenant Jones who was one of the leading lights in the flight, I can’t recall him really, but erm.
CB: This is still war time before the Japanese surrender isn’t it?
CA: It was, yeah, but it was after the European war –
CB: Yep.
CA: And it was in the time between May and August -
CB: Right.
’45. The Lincoln was, was being produced to go overseas with the Tiger Force because the Lanc’ hadn’t got the range that was required and the Lincoln was supposed to have. But it wasn’t, in our eyes, it wasn’t as good as the Lancaster, I mean we were in love with the Lanc’ whereas the Lincoln was, was something different. I fully remember on one flight, I was sitting down on the right hand side and Pete was flying and I looked out of the starboard side and looked at the wing and I could see the skin rippling and I nearly collapsed with fear because I could see the wing moving up and down, and when it lifted up, so it rippled the skin at the join between the mid-section and the wing section, and for the rest of the flight my eyes never left that section [laugh] that part, but I found out when we got down that the wings moved five feet between the bottom and top and this was due to the weight of them and the, the fuel. And it was only after then that I noticed that when the Lincoln sat on the ground the wings appeared to be drooped and they moved up during the take off period to obtain the flying attitude. But it was a frightening sight I will admit.
CB: So it was a bigger aeroplane?
CA: It was a bigger aeroplane, it was heavier, I don’t know about the bomb load. I don’t think it was any different.
CB: But they were bigger engines and could fly higher and the span was a hundred and twenty four feet?
CA: A hundred and twenty.
CB: Hundred and twenty.
CA: About a hundred and twenty feet, yeah.
CB: Now when did you get promoted to warrant officer?
CA: Two years after I graduated. You were made, when you got your wings, you were a sergeant for about nine to twelve months and then flight sergeant for a year and then you became warrant officer. I mean a lot of the ground crew, senior NCO’s didn’t like this, I mean there were us youngsters who were up to sergeants after about eighteen months and they’d been in the Air Force for years and had just made corporal. So there was a bit of resentment between the ground crew NCO’s and the aircrews. But of course I mean we were only as aircrew given stripes, or officers in case you were ever shot down and taken prisoner, you got better treatment as a NCO, but that was the only reason.
CB: OK, so fast forward again to the Lincolns, your time in the RAF finished when, 1946?
CA: 1946 November.
CB: Right, so what did you do?
CA: What did I do afterwards?
CB: After the war, after the war finished?
CA: Well, I came back and as I said previously, I’d been an apprentice with Avery’s, and my apprenticeship had been cancelled when I joined up. So I went back to Avery’s and recommenced my apprenticeship but due to my service, instead of having to do a further length of time, because I was apprenticed for about five years and I had only done about twelve months, they reduced the remaining time by about twelve months and they concluded my apprenticeship about twelve months, having served and I’d done a four year apprenticeship instead of five, and that would have been somewhere around about 1947, ‘48 when I, they transferred me into the drawing office at Avery’s and I became a draughtsman.
CB: How long did you work as a draughtsman?
CA: Well I left Avery’s in 1951 and I was employed by the Cannon Iron Foundries for a year and then I, I went to Thompson Brothers in Bilsden for about three years and finally finished at ICI Marston Excelsior in ’56.
CB: What did you do there?
CA: I was a design draughtsman there and I, I did design, design work on, I always remember my first job was designing a heat exchanger for the Folland Gnat , just a small one, I can’t remember what it was for, I believe it was for the pilot cooling system to keep him cool. But this was on heat exchange. I finished up actually on heavy fabrication work, in aluminium work, and I became a section leader. I did various jobs, I engineered a liquid ethylene storage plant for ICI organic, organic section I think, or one of the sections at Billingham where we stored surplus liquid ethylene. And we stored it in a big container like a gasometer and I, I was given a piece of ground on the side of the river and put a storage plant there. I must admit that my initial estimate of costs was way down, [laugh] I made a hell of a bloomer, I think I estimated about a hundred and fifty thousand and it finished up at about, eight hundred thousand [laugh] we had quite a, an argument, not argument, discussion why [laugh]. But then I went onto production, onto the production side of the factory, as chief planning officer on fabrications which I, I did until the work started to peter out so I went onto development work on cold rolling of noble alloys for jet engines.
CB: This is all for ICI?
CA: All, yes, it’s all under ICI’s name, we bought in a cold rolling machine from Holland and we used to roll to very, very close tolerances. Rolls Royce were trying to reduce their costs by getting in components where they didn’t really have to do any work on, and I mean the jet engines required diameters to a thou’ in tolerance and we were supposed to try to do this by rolling them, which we did eventually, I mean we bought this machine. I went out to G, GE the American counterpart of Rolls Royce. GEC?
CB: GE yeah, General Electric.
CA: And I spent a fortnight out there getting some idea of how they tackled it but I mean they’d got a different idea I mean where here we had to justify spending sixpence, there the engineer, development engineer said ‘I want a machine it costs two hundred thousand pounds’ and he was given the money and they got the machine. Whereas we were trying to do it on one machine they’d got a battery of them, about ten. I mean this is the reason why they are the world beaters. Money is no object.
CB: When did you finally retire?
CA: I retired in March ’86 having completed thirty years.
CB: OK, thank you, I’ll stop there. So we’re restarting, we’re restarting just on a flashback. So you’re back from Canada as a qualified pilot.
CA: Yeah. I should have said then that I went up to, we were asked where we wanted postings to go to for flying. I never realised that there was a flying school at Wolverhampton otherwise I would have asked, instead I got posted up to RAF Carlisle on Tiger Moths where we did about a month flying a Tiger Moth around getting used to flying in English conditions. We used to take a navigator or a bomb aimer as a passenger for them to practice map reading while we flew it. We did a lot of flying around the Lake District, we were flying over Maryport and Workington I think is the other port, on the coast there. And we, we used to go down and count the number of ships that were in the harbour and things like this, and then having to fly back over the Lake District which was very, which could be quite treacherous with the down draughts and the winds whistling over the hills. It used to bounce the Tiger Moths around like nobody’s business. But we did that for about a month and then we were posted again hoping we were going to get posted to OTUs but it never, never, I was, you asked how I felt. I felt disappointed having made my mind up I was never going to fly single engine fighters I put down for twin engines or multis. The onus was on providing crews for four engine planes. So to get there I’d got to go to an OTU and that was never going to happen. So when I was posted to the engineers’ course I accepted it and it, I was still flying, that was what I wanted to do, I wanted to fly. So that, I made the best of a bad job. I thoroughly enjoyed it I mean, I enjoyed the, being on a squadron, being a crew, being a member of a crew and we’d got a good crew. I mean our mid upper gunner was the only one who could shoot through the aerial leading to the rudders which he did time and time again, it used to cost him half a crown a time when he pierced them, I mean this was when we were doing air to air gunnery and he was firing at a drogue and he’d traverse and ‘ping’ and Andy the wireless operator would say ‘You’ve done it again’ [laugh], but um.
CB: So, how long did you keep your pilots brevet?
CA: All the time.
CB: Oh did you, throughout the war?
CA: Yes, yes we were never forced to change them. That is why I always say I was a PFE rather than a flight engineer, I was a pilot flight engineer. And the pilots that I flew with gave me the opportunity to fly, to pilot. I mean Peter who was the ex-instructor, he was always within reach of pulling me out of the seat if necessary, but Fred he used to go and wander down to the Elsan at the back and leave me in charge. I mean I was playing about one day above the clouds and I was following the, the shape of the clouds up and down and Johnny who was sitting with his turret doors open, fore and aft, and it, it started to get a bit robust, the movement of the up and down movement and the Elsan lid which was tied down with a bungee rubber broke and the contents of the Elsan came up, [laugh], oh dear, and it covered him [laugh], he didn’t speak to me for days [laugh] because he knew it was me and not Fred [laugh].
CB: How did the crew get on together socially?
CA: Very good, very good we never went anywhere unless we went as a six. I mean, we bought our beer in the mess, we bought it by the bucket and helped ourselves with dipping the glass into the bucket rather than separate. No, it was a very good crew, very good.
CB: So in those days you could buy beer in a bucket could you?
CA: In the mess.
CB: In the mess, right.
CA: In the mess yeah.
CB: OK, and as a crew you worked well together?
CA: Oh yes, yes.
CB: And er.
CA: Well Marsh, he was working, he wanted to get onto pathfinders.
CB: Marsh being?
CA: The navigator. He was a very good navigator but, Mac, the bomb aimer, he was more of, an easy come, easy go.
CB: So.
CA: That second or the first raid as a crew to Pilsen we went through the target twice because Mac he wouldn’t drop because he couldn’t line it up properly so he said ‘I’ll send you round again’ and the rest of us shouted ‘What the hell, will you pull them’ and Fred said ‘If you don’t I shall jettison’. So he says ‘Go round again!’ So we had to make our way round and come back and get it back in the stream and fly it through but on the second time he let them go.
CB: This is a daylight raid?
CA: No, this was a night raid —
CB: This was in the night. So the reason I said that is because that sounds a particularly dangerous thing to do when you can’t see anything —
CA: It was a, well this is it, I mean what with trying to get in, slip into the stream, I mean you, I never saw another Lancaster in the stream. And I mean we went through the target we were only given somewhere maybe half an hour from the start to the end of the squadron’s time over the target so I mean God knows how close we were, but we were very close when we were getting buffeted by slipstream. But I mean a, when Marsh sent us on a dog leg when we turned out of the stream and then had to come back and join it again. We didn’t realise the stupidity of it, but Marsh being Marsh he’d got to have it down on his chart.
CB: Why would it have mattered if you had arrived early?
CA: Well a, the target may not have been indicated, or they were down below marking it, so you, I mean er.
CB: You could have bombed your own people —
CA: You could have bombed them, yeah —
CB: Right OK.
CA: And since the Lancaster was always the top flight, I mean it was Lancasters, Halifaxes, Stirlings.
CB: Right, there’s a ranking.
CA: So.
CB: And how did the crew feel, and you feel, about what you were doing as bombers?
CA: I don’t think we thought about it.
CB: OK.
CA: I don’t think we thought about it. I mean the first one — we had been bombed at home in 1940. We’d had a landmine dropped within about a hundred yards of home and our house is most probably still standing with the back, back wall bulged where the roof lifted and the walls started to move and it dropped down and it held. So I wanted to do something back but having that I don’t think you, we never talked about whether there was a right or wrong, it was a job.
CB: My wife was born in a bombing raid in Birmingham.
CA: Eh hum.
CB: What about LMF, did you know anything about that, or experience.
CA: We knew of it.
CB: Yes.
CA: We knew of it but we never met anyone who was accused of it or anything like that. But we didn’t like the idea because it wasn’t nice when you were over there. A funny tale, we had a man on the squadron, he was a dark, a Negro, and he was as black as the ace of spades, colour. And he’d got perfectly white teeth and he was known as twenty three fifty nine, that was his nickname, because twenty three fifty nine is the darkest part of the night, or supposed to be, a minute before midnight. And he was a rear gunner and when he was in his turret at night and you walked past it all you could see was these white teeth. It was really funny, but he was a good lad.
CB: What about other aspects of the work? When you boarded the aircraft what did you have with you to eat or drink?
CA: I think the only thing I can remember is boiled sweets. I mean I can’t ever remember fruit, or anything like that. I don’t think we ever took, I never took a drink at all. I mean I can tell the tale where, I mean, we used, sometimes to remember to take a bottle to use and one day Fred had forgotten his, the pilot, and he was in, he was in dire trouble. So he said ‘I’ve got to have something, I’ve got to have something’ so I was scooting round trying to, what the hell can he have? And I went and took the cover off the G George instrument, gyro, which was a pan of about eight or nine inch diameter and about three or four inches deep held on with four screws. So I took this off and gave him this to use, which he used. So he used it and said ‘Here get rid of it’ so I said ‘How?’ he says ‘Throw it out the window’ so I pulled my sliding window back —
CB: [laugh] —
CA: and threw it out, threw the contents. Of course, I mean as soon as the contents went out the slipstream took it all the way down the canopy, the Perspex, and we, I couldn’t see out of that side all the way back, and I also lost the G cover [laugh] which cost me five shillings and a telling off from the engineer officer. How, why was the G cover uncovered. ‘I can’t remember’ [laugh].
CB: Now what about the ground crew because you relied on them so, what was the relationship with them?
CA: Very good, other than the first time I went, we joined the squadron, and I don’t know whether I ought to say this, can I, can I not get up?
CB: Um.
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Interview with Cyril Abbotts
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Cyril Abbotts volunteered for the Royal Air Force while he was an engineering apprentice with W T Avery at Smethwick. After his reception at Lord’s Cricket Ground and initial training,he trained as a pilot at RAF Bowden and Moose Jaw in Canada. On his return to Great Britain, he spent some time in holding units, before being posted to retrain as a flight engineer at RAF St Athan. He flew operations with 57 Squadron from RAF East Kirkby in 1945 and later converted from Lancasters to Lincolns. Post-war he completed his apprenticeship, becoming a draughtsman for various companies including ICI. He retired after 30 years of service with them.
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Chris Brockbank
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2015-10-15
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Dawn Studd
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01:18:53 audio recording
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eng
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AAbbottsC151015
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Canada
Saskatchewan--Moose Jaw
England--London
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
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Germany
Wales
Saskatchewan
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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1654 HCU
57 Squadron
African heritage
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bombing
Cornell
crewing up
demobilisation
fear
flight engineer
Flying Training School
Heavy Conversion Unit
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Me 262
military discipline
military living conditions
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pilot
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RAF Bridgnorth
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RAF East Kirkby
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-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/683/10087/ABaileyCE180424.1.mp3
835fb4b97ccbfe82c8edefd50e0e08d9
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Title
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Bailey, Cyril Edwin
C E Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Cyril Bailey DFM (b. 1925, 1893433 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 625 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-04-21
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Bailey, CE Collection
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Transcription
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DM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Meanwell. The interviewee is Cyril Bailey. The interview is taking place at Mr Bailey’s home in Surbiton, Surrey on the 24th of April 2018. So, Cyril perhaps you could start us off by just saying a bit about where and when you were born and your early life growing up.
CB: Yeah. Well, as far as I know I was born in Minster-in-Thanet in Kent but I can’t remember that place. It’s only when I got to the schooldays that I remember Preston where we had the, a blackberry farm where my father was working, working on. We then moved to Birchington where my father had took over management. Management and work of a farm there. That was quite a good time. I was there until I left school. Basic education of course. Just the three Rs and that’s it.
DM: So, you were born in 1925, I think.
CB: Yeah.
DM: How old were you when you left school?
CB: Fourteen. I was fourteen years old then.
DM: So, just at the beginning of the war.
CB: Yes. Yes. It was, yeah. It would be there. Yeah. Would be round the same year. So, I had to wait for a few years before I could join up.
DM: What did you do when you left school?
CB: Well, when I left school the first thing I did was to go into a private Preparatory School as a [pause] What’s the title of it now? Basically, it’s any job that was around the kitchens et cetera. The cleaning, serving up school meals and all sorts of things. That went on to, that was in, that was in Westgate about three miles away from Birchington. But then the war came on and they evacuated up to North Wales. Of course, that left me without a job. So, in the meantime, I started looking around and then I had a telegram one day. Would I like to rejoin them up in Wales? Well, I had no job so I said, ‘Yes, please.’ So that was the Myra and Dorian Williams. They run that school. Dorian Williams was later a [unclear] and horse shows. You’ve probably heard of him, and his wife was the honourable Myra Williams. Anyway, she sorted all the travel warrants et cetera for me to go up there, and so I travelled up. Well, I was fourteen, wasn’t I? She picked me up at Oswestry, and of course it was midwinter then, and I always remember that one because there was all snow and ice and when she came to the premises where the school was being run, we slipped on the ice and went into a ditch. Of course, it was in the mountains. Country roads. Nothing, anywhere at all. No telephones or lighting or whatever. So, she said, ‘Well, I’ve got to go back. Walk back to see if I can get somebody at one of the garages way back.’ I said, ‘Shall I come with you?’ You know. I was only fourteen. She said, ‘Oh no,’ she said, ‘If you’d like to sit in the car and just wait for me. Just look after the car.’ Well, anyway, after about a half an hour or so she turned up with a bloke in a breakdown lorry, and they pulled her out of the ditch. No damage done. It was only just skidding, and we carried on our way. That was to a place called Llangedwyn in, in North Wales. It was a massive great big, I did have a picture of that somewhere, a great big country mansion sort of a place, and I quite enjoyed my time there because I was in charge of looking after all the boilers. The two massive, great big six foot boilers there. One was for the hot water and the other one was for the heating. I looked after those and did all the odd jobs around the place chopping up wood for the firewood, getting the coal in et cetera. Anyway, that went on for about a couple of years and I thought, well I don’t know it’s time I went home and so I packed it in. So, I just said, gave my notice in and got on my bike and cycled home.
DM: Cycled.
CB: Cycled. Three hundred miles, I think. Nearly.
DM: That took a while.
CB: It did. Yeah. That took me about two and a half days. The first day I got as far as Coventry, and that, I didn’t realise at the time but that was after they’d had that big bombing raid. But the part of the country where I come in that was still standing. Anyway, I saw somebody in the street there. That was about six or seven o’clock in the evening, I said, ‘Do you know anywhere I could put up for the night?’ I’d made no arrangements at all, you see. He said, ‘Oh yes. I’ll contact my sister. She’ll take you in.’ And their names were Mr and Mrs Devey of 62 Vernon Street. Coventry. I always remember that. Anyway, I had my week‘s rations on my case which was strapped on the back of the bike. It was only an ordinary Roadster bike. You know normal, a Hercules Roadster, and I had nearly all that week’s rations at breakfast the following morning funnily enough which she did. Anyway, so it was about nine o’clock again when I started off on the bike and heading for London. So that took me, I wanted to get through London so I just carried on cycling and finished up, I think it was about three or four o’clock in the morning the following day so had been cycling since nine o’clock right through, through the night in to, finished up at Chatham or somewhere. I forget the name of the station now but they’d got the fire going in the station waiting room there so I thought well that’s lovely, I just parked myself in front of it and dozed off. It had been quite a long day. And I was rudely awakened by all the early morning workers and so that means out. So, I had to get on my bike again. That was about five or six o’clock in the morning, I’m sure. And, so I carried on till I got then to my home which is in in Birchington, and of course I was black as the ace of spades all over with dirt, travelling. No washing or anything like that and my mum said, she said, ‘Oh, you’d better get in the bath and clean yourself up.’ So I went in there and promptly went to sleep in it because my mum got a bit worried. She was banging on the door. Anyway, I come to again and that’s all. I finished on that one. Anyway, then of course, that meant I’d got to find a job down there so that was, and eventually I ended up as a mechanic in a local garage. Jenner’s Garage. And that was, went on until I got papers to go to join up. And of course, during the time I was working at the garage I joined up the ATC as well, at Margate. So, this is where my bike come in handy because cycling to and fro Margate about three and a half miles or so.
DM: What did you pick the ATC?
CB: Well, I don’t know. It was quite silly actually, because when I was working up in North Wales, I went to the nearest place was Oswestry which was about ten miles away. So, I used to cycle there once a week to just go to the pictures, and have a look around the shops, and in a shop, I saw, was looking at some books there. It’s got, “Teach Yourself” — and part of the rest of it was obliterated, you know with other stock in the way. So, I went in the shop. ‘I’d like that book you’ve got in the window.’ He said, ‘Are you sure you want that one?’ I said, ‘Yeah. Yeah. “Teach Yourself.”’ He said ‘Okay.’ It was, “Teach Yourself to Fly,” it was [laughs]
DM: So that was fate.
CB: That sort of triggered the interest in flying, I suppose. But anyway —
DM: So, you used to go to the ATC at Margate —
CB: Oh yes. Yes. I got in to the ATC there and I did quite well on that one. Of course, the time came to join up so I said, ‘Well, I’d like to go as a mechanic in the Air Force.’ And they said, ‘Right. If you, we don’t want any more mechanics at the moment.’ He said, ‘There’s a flight engineer’s job going now.’ And so, ‘Well what’s that? Just the next stage of mechanic?’ ‘More or less.’ I said, ‘Well, does it entail a little bit of flying after doing repairs?’ ‘Something like that.’ That was it. That was my interview. So, I joined up and from then on, we went, well when I finally joined up, I think it was St John‘s Wood where we first got all our clothing and kit et cetera. Then the next move was going up to near Newcastle. I forget. Oh, from then we moved in to St Athans.
DM: So that was after Whitley Bay.
CB: That was after Whitley Bay and, but, oh just going back a bit the, Whitley Bay, the best thing I remember about that all the square bashing we did. It was mid-winter on the prom and that was all snow, ice and everything else and you used to get frozen like mad there.
DM: What year are we in now?
CB: Oh, that would be still in ‘43.
DM: Right.
CB: And once, when we’d been square bashing and things like that I got back to the billets which was private houses taken over by the Air Force, and we had a kitchen range in there. I thought I’d put my shoes in there to dry them out a bit and I forgot about them until I suddenly got thinking about getting them out and there was one of them had scorch marks all over the sole of it as if they’d been worn out. Worn down. So fortunately, when I went to get them replaced I gave that excuse and, that I’d rubbed it down with a bit of emery or something and I got a fresh pair of shoes. Anyway, from there we went on to St Athans. Oh yes. There was another chap which, when did I [unclear] yeah. Jack. Jack Forrest. We, we, when we first joined up, first joined up we met up and we went through all of this St John’s Wood, Whitley Bay and St Athans together. So, we got quite friendly on there and that was the engineering course. Flight engineering course which was I believe about two or three years condensed down to about six months. We both got through that okay, and then we got posted out. Well, Jack didn’t get posted to the same place as me and so I didn’t see more of him. And then we went to, after we finished with St Athans went in to Lindholme Conversion Unit. That’s in Yorkshire. Followed on to Hemswell. The number 1 Lanc Finishing School. And this during the time was on the, other than Lindholme or Hemswell that Dave, I met up with Dave, and we started to do some flying in the old Halifaxes. That would have been Lindholme and he gave me about, because they had a dual control there, he gave me about twenty minutes tuition on how to steer a plane straight and level. Apparently, that was what we were supposed to be able to do if anything happened so we could bring it back. And then, from then after Lanc Finishing School we moved to Kelstern, 625 Squadron and there we had quite a few [pause] went through about twenty eight ops, operations during that time.
DM: When did you first crew up with all the rest of the crew? When did you first all get together as a team?
[pause]
CB: Can we stop there?
[recording paused]
DM: So when, when did you first meet the pilot and become part of his team?
CB: Oh, oh that was in June of ’44, when we went to, the engineers et cetera had to go into a hangar or something, some sort.
DM: A big building.
CB: Yeah. A big building. And everybody was milling around, sort of saying and introducing each other and then David, he come over to me and he said, ‘Did you fancy coming with me and my crew?’ So, I said, ‘Yes, I think that would be alright.’ And that’s how we carried on.
DM: They were all Australian.
CB: And they were an all-Australian crew. Yeah.
DM: How did you feel about that?
CB: And, well I thought it was quite good. I thought it was quite good there and, do you want me to read that? And so of course Dave, David was very pleased to welcome the flight engineer and introduced me to the rest of the crew. And one of the first things they said, I think it was one of the gunners, he said, ‘Oh,’ he said ‘An English rose amongst blue orchids,’ they joked. Of course, I replied, ‘Don’t you mean colonial thorns?’ And then our bonds solidified. Then we went on from there.
DM: Do you remember much about your first op?
CB: No. But whilst we were still in training, before we actually joined up in to 625 —
DM: Right.
CB: Whilst we were —
DM: Where we were training as a crew.
CB: We trained as a crew and they said, oh again very short of aircraft there so we used the training aircraft. The old Halifax, I think. And we went over to [pause] I forget the name of it even now. A place over in Holland somewhere.
DM: And you were a decoy.
CB: And we were just a decoy. We did have one fighter come, come towards us but Dave started doing the old corkscrew then, and he put his, he could see we were prepared for him and so he buzzed off fortunately because we didn’t even have an upper gun turret on there neither. It didn’t. Anyway, we managed to get back all right and of course things after that as I said, we got into 625 Squadron and my first op was to Beukenhorst Wassenaar. That’s a rocket storage place there. But as far as I remember that was reasonably quiet. Just a few bits of flak, but that was about all. And that was in the September of ’44.
DM: Could you say a bit about what your typical duties were as a flight engineer on a flight? What you had to do.
CB: Yes. Well, general it was to give obviously assistance to Dave, the pilot. The main thing was looking after the petrol tanks making sure that we were using the fuel off correctly and keeping tabs on how much we were using to calculate the quantities depending on the engine revs, boost, all the time. So, every time there was a change of speed or height which entailed changing the revs et cetera, the engine, we had to recalculate and see how much we’d done up ‘til then and make note of it all and so we’d got a continuous count of how much was used over what periods of time. So, you always keep control of that. And of course, Jack of all trades. Anything else that goes wrong we’d have to try to and sort it out. I know once we had, a bomb aimer he wanted to go back to the loo at the backend, so he was, he slowly got past me and got as far as the wireless operator and he collapsed. Of course, they called out for me to sort it out and apparently when he’d gone, he hadn’t taken his emergency bottle of oxygen with him and of course he passed out. So —
DM: So, you had to sort him out.
CB: So, I managed to get a, link him up again to the system and after about ten minutes he sort of came around, but he wasn’t the same for the rest of the trip. Yeah. That was a bit unusual that one.
DM: Did you ever have any bombs hang up that you had to deal with?
CB: We did once, and that was when I was when I had a Canadian crew. But that was —
DM: So, you were sort of filling in or —
CB: Yeah, and that was because for the first twenty operations I was with David.
DM: Right.
CB: Until we went, got as far as Dortmund. That was November 29th 1944, and we, we got hit. Well, by flak which blew out our windscreens, and plus it also injured both Dave and myself. Dave got his hand, right hand had got a, a splinter of flak gone in to that and severed the tendons then. He was squirting out blood all over the show because at the time I was laying on my tummy on the floor pushing out Window. Which was anti, anti, what’s the name stuff.
DM: The bits of metal.
CB: Yeah. Metal.
DM: To confuse the radar.
CB: Yeah. That’s right. To confuse the radar. So, of course —
DM: What were your injuries?
CB: Oh, this is on Lancs. Those were a Merlin.
DM: Yeah. But what, what, but you said you were injured as well.
CB: Oh yes, sorry, my injury, yeah. Yeah. I got a bit of flak in my chest. Fortunately, that was not, not very serious. It didn’t hurt me at all so, and made a mess of my clothes of course, but I was able to look after Dave and I knew I had to be quick the way he was squirting out blood there, because it came right across the cabin and so I held his hand tight. Held his wrist tight with one hand as tight as I could, and it slowed it down quite considerably. And whilst I was there, I was able to get the First Aid out for him. Anyway, and then I managed to get to a padded bandage on, on to his hand, and put a tourniquet on his arm to help, help stop it and that appeared to be alright. Whether he was, of course then you were still continuing on and I see David had a bit of flak in, stuck inside his helmet. I thought, well I won’t touch that. He doesn’t seem to be worried about it. But another one in his shoulder. So, I just pinched that. Made him flinch a bit but he was still, still going on all right.
DM: So, he was still sort of flying the plane to the best of his ability.
CB: He still, he was, yeah. But of course, one handed.
DM: Yes.
CB: Because this one, it was useless. He lost his, lost his hand completely there so everything that he would have normally done, the old, the engine and trimming and and everything else like that. We, we went on quite well on that way. I did ask him if he wanted me to take over at all and he said, ‘Oh no. No. No.’ And yeah, I don’t know when we got back to this country because I still had to do to look after the engines and all the calculations for the fuel. That’s how I made sure we’d got enough to go where we wanted to go. Anyway, we decided to try and make it all the way, and then when he, when he come to our own place at Kelstern, when he called up control and said he had an injured man on board but he didn’t say who and of course between us we got the plane down, but I had to do the trimming under his instructions because I mean his, he could feel what the plane was doing obviously with the left hand okay, but we made a perfect landing that time. So, of course, the blood wagon was waiting for us when we get back to dispersal, and they took him off straight to, straight to the hospital there. He’d, he’d also got another one. A bit of flak in his leg which I didn’t know about. So, he might have lost a bit of blood from that.
DM: Did you have to go to hospital?
CB: Yes. And at anyway, so they, they took him off and of course when, when you got to the debriefing room and of course I hadn’t finished the last, what? About the last twenty minutes half hour of calculations on the fuel, and of course the engineer’s controlling officer there he said, ‘Why didn’t you do that?’ I said, ‘Well, because I was wounded.’ He said, ‘Oh, did you? Where?’ I had to tell him then, and of course he called the medics over and the next thing I know I was hopped off to the infirmary. And that, that was funny because it was mid-winter as I say. Bitterly cold and when we got to the infirmary there, I had to wait outside for about an hour in the, in the cold ambulance because they had to make negotiations to take us in there. Anyway, but that, there was another, another crew member from one of the other planes. He was going there as well because he’d been wounded on his, on his flight, and anyway, we got in there and they did us quite well there. They did an operation on there and dug, dug a hole out because if it had gone in there and travelled right across, and, and they’d sort that one out and after that it was quite nice because we finished in the hospital there and on to sick leave. That was unfortunately the last time I saw my crew.
DM: Did you ever think when you were, after you were hit by the flak did it ever enter your head that you might not have got back or were you too busy?
CB: Well, I was more concerned with just keeping going. It didn’t enter that, only in as much I was quite worried wondering whether Dave could be alright but he was perfectly okay. Well, perfectly all right. He was doing it. That’s it. But I think he, when we come in to land or were coming in to land I did turn the oxygen up to, to the maximum there and I think that did help revive him quite considerably. He thanked me for doing it before we even left our seats.
DM: I assume if the flak had blown away the windscreen it must have been pretty cold as well.
CB: Well, funnily enough no. It was a little bit draughty but I think it’s the way that the contours of the aircraft was made that it just skimmed over the nose and not directly on to the windscreen right there because I thought that should be causing quite a blast through there but it didn’t. It was still comfortable with all the clobber on which we had and that was it.
DM: And you got a medal for that, I think.
CB: Yes, well Dave got the DFC immediately for it and he recommended me for the DFM and that came through at a later date about that one. Yes. So that was the first twenty operations which we had. They were —
DM: Did, did the whole crew split up or did any, did you stay with any of them?
CB: Well, during the, during the, after the, this and this turn at Dortmund there Dave couldn’t go back because he was in hospital and the crew were asked to, if they could stay together. But unfortunately, they, they got split up and I think the mid-upper gunner, yeah. That’s right. Mid-upper gunner. He stayed on the station. I didn’t know that but the others went off to another ‘drome, you know. Somewhere else.
DM: Where did you end up?
CB: Well, what do you mean?
DM: When you came back from your sick leave where did you have to go?
CB: Oh, well I, I went back to Kelstern. Yes. I was quite a while there but this was where I picked up another crew there. I thought they were Canadians but since then I’ve found out that the pilot was an Englishman [laughs] And I don’t know where I got the Canadians from because oh probably because I had to go as a spare the first trip back. And that was not until [pause] oh that was on the, in March. March ’45.
DM: Right.
CB: So, we had quite a, quite a long time.
DM: So that would have been your twenty first op then.
CB: Yes, that would have been my twenty first op then. That was with a Flight Lieutenant Jardine and to, to an aircraft factory. But that was a good long trip. The first one back and it’s nine hours fifty minutes and so that was a bit wearying one. And the second one after that was with this Flight Lieutenant Russell that was with, and his crew I went with until I actually finished my operations. But to have the nine hours fifty minutes on that first one. A night one as well. Then the following day I got the new crew and we went to Kassel. Kassel. That was seven hours forty minutes that night one. So, two long, very long trips as a starters but didn’t, but they didn’t go down too well but still. Then they were, my third one after that one we were back to Dortmund. And when we were going, you know on the way to go to briefing walking together as a crew there and I said to the skipper, I said, ‘I know where we are going.’ He said, ‘How do you know that?’ I said, ‘Well, I don’t really know but I think we’re going to go to Dortmund.’ And of course, we got in there and the screens opened up and Dortmund it was.
DM: Just like a premonition.
CB: Yeah. I just knew it was going to be that. Anyway, we went through there. I had a little, oh we’ve got to go back there again and I didn’t know. Well, we did go, and it was quite a good raid that time. I thought well I got my own back now. But I did notice that when we was again going over there he kept well into the middle of the formations we were all in, you know as a gaggle formation and that’s like three in the front and the rest of you strewn behind. And I thought well that’s, that’s quite good of him to do that and it made me feel a bit more comfortable but —
DM: It must have been quite nerve wracking.
CB: It was a bit, yeah. But as things went down, well it, back to somewhere near a comfortable to, to accept.
DM: Yeah.
CB: But then of course the, after that one I went to Bremen. It was the railway the bridge. That was my worst one that was. We had been [pause] yeah, we had just, just finished the bombing run and the doors were still open and of course we get hit by flak again. But that time it got the, most of it was down in the bomb bay and because it cut all the hydraulic oil pipe and we lost all our hydraulic oil and that was, I thought it was on fire but it was just the fact that it was all spraying out the back. And of course, the port inner, I think it was the port inner, yeah that started smoking as well. So, we got a bit of smoke in to the cabin there which I thought well what’s going to happen now. But anyway, I feathered the port inner and that stopped that one going so it hadn’t actually got to flaming which was fortunate and the, all the hydraulic oil was spraying out the back. That looked like smoke actually. The way it was going. And so of course, that meant that the bomb doors were still, still open. Then the flaps went down at ten degrees and [pause] yeah that went down ten degrees and the air pressure went down because I don’t know why that was. Something to do with in the engine part and so the engines went back in to M gear which was a low gear. So, I was getting a bit of a state and you know and then there was about three of us straggling behind. We were all about a mile apart from each other and I saw this [pause] ME 262. He came up behind the last one and of course he went down on to him as he went up in flames. And as he come up he went up to the next one. He went up in flames. And of course, we started to look to see if there were any parachutes. I didn’t see any parachutes but apparently there was two out of those two planes somewhere but then as he came up and they went down then he came to us but of course the skipper, he went into a corkscrew, you know as fast as he could because the engines had gone down, the bomb doors still open, the flaps down a bit. And he missed [laughs] I remember seeing, seeing tracers, you know going underneath us, that’s where it was in the engineer’s side we’d gone to starboard so that was wide open. We just looked. Looked straight into the face of the pilot as he was peering out of his what’s the names. Tracers et cetera. But fortunately, he missed. By that time the skipper had called up for help and this Mustang, he come over and started chasing him off and because the, with the twin jet there he just burst out in a puff of smoke and had gone.
DM: Yeah.
CB: And of course, the Mustang couldn’t keep up with him although they were pretty good but anyway then he stayed with us for a little while, see that we were still going okay and then he buzzed off on further duties again. Anyway, then we got down, come to get back and the skipper said to, said about lowering the undercarriage. I said, ‘Are you able to?’ Oh, no. No, the skipper called up the control and said we’d, we’d lost all our hydraulic oil so we’d got no, no undercarriage. So, I had to intervene and say, ‘Hold on. We haven’t tried the emergency air yet.’ And because this was, I suppose they must have heard all that on ground control. But anyway, so I said, ‘Well, let’s, let’s try it to see if it’s going to work.’ So he turned on the emergency air and of course it did work. Fortunately, it did go down but ever such a long time well, compared to hydraulic and then compressed air and it finally locked. The undercarriage locked on and so we came in and landed quite safely but that was quite a —
DM: Traumatic trip I would think.
CB: Very traumatic. Yeah.
DM: No one was hurt.
CB: No one was hurt this time, no. No. It was quite, quite good that one. But then of course we had, from then on we had maybe four more. Four more trips and then that was the lot.
DM: I suppose after the, the trip where you were in combat I suppose you’d say with the 262 you didn’t get any time off or anything. You were straight off on the next op a few days later.
CB: Oh, yes. Yeah.
DM: Yeah.
CB: On the 23rd of the March for the Bremen. And the 25th of the 3rd and it was Hanover. The city Blitz. So didn’t waste much time there.
DM: So when, what date was your last op? If you can remember.
CB: My last night, last one was on the 14th of April. 14th of April but that was to Potsdam. It was after the Nazi headquarters apparently. So, no it was quite, quite exciting I suppose if you call it one way.
DM: So, when you came back from that last raid did you go on leave then?
CB: Yeah [pause] No. Not, not straightaway I don’t think. No. Because, no it was the, although there was where we had to sort ourselves out for another job so we [unclear] Yeah. We were sent off to Catterick. Or as I called it a misdirecting centre [laughs] and anyway —
DM: That was training, was it?
CB: Retraining for ground trade because they said, ‘What job? What do you want to do now?’ I said, ‘Well, being as I worked in a garage I’d sooner get a driving job.’ So, I went off to Catterick for that. Oh no. Went off to Weeton from Catterick.
DM: What rank were you by this time?
CB: Sergeant.
DM: Right. You didn’t get any huge promotions or anything.
CB: No. No. I didn’t have that. And we went up to Weeton, to the Driving School there and passed that okay. And Blackpool was the Personnel Dispersal Centre or something like that. Yeah. Well, that’s where we, after that we had, had to go to this other place, well West Kirby, or both of them actually until we could be sorted where we were going to go and they said, ‘Where do you want to go?’ So, and so they gave me a couple of choices. So the choices of, for me I thought well, Manston was near my home down, down near Birchington and you never get your first choice so I thought choose one up in Scotland and then Manston as the second. And this is where the funny part is because when I got the papers saying where I was, where I was going to go it wasn’t either of those. It was out to India [laughs] Yes. So, I had to get on board ship and get posted out to India as a driver. And we went to Bombay as it was known then first off and ever so, receiving place in, in Bombay and we had to go to the stations where we were to go for the rest of our time, or nearly and that was over near Calcutta on the opposite side of India. It took about three days on the, on the lines there and the, I always remember those trains there because they were, the seats were like park bench seats. They were slats and we had to sleep on those or on the floor. Fortunately, I’d picked up a sleeping bag from somebody coming back home when we was at Bombay and so I used that which was handy. Anyways, it was about three days going across there and it was mostly a single track railway with a double section now and again where they had to meet, meeting somebody coming the other way and you changed, changed lines and he went on the other side. And there we were obviously we were waiting there because we managed to get some tea made by using the steam from the engine. Making cups of tea. But it wasn’t very nice but still it was wet and warm. And then I went up to Calcutta. Well, that was only for one day and then then until we put the proper station which was Baigachi. It’s about thirty mile outside Calcutta and I had quite a, quite a good time there because I was, as a driver you were doing all sorts of things. You know, there was sometimes I was on daily routine stuff and then I was on the crash tender and the Army ambulance, you know. Wherever they wanted a driver you went on.
DM: How long were you in India for? Can you remember?
CB: Oh, that was [pause] the 4th of November ’45 but I stayed there. I started there and come back home again [pause] 31st of the 12th. Oh, yeah, 31st of the 12th ’46. ’45.
DM: Right. So, a couple of months.
CB: Yeah. A couple of months. Yeah.
DM: And then when you came back was that when you were you demobbed?
CB: Yes. We come back to Kirkham, 101 PDC and that’s where we got demobbed.
DM: Did anyone ask you if you wanted to stay in the RAF?
CB: Yes. They did. Yeah. And I forget what my answer was there. I don’t think it was very positive at the time.
DM: Right. You wanted to get out. You’d had enough.
CB: Get out. Yeah. I’d had enough it. Yeah. It’s fair enough once you finished flying and everything was all so settled down you think, oh, thank goodness for that. It, you know, it felt quite, I suppose quite shattered you know. But then of course you get to look forward to demob then. But it was during that time that they asked, told us we’d got to hand in as well as all our clothes et cetera and, because we got an issue of suits and hats and things like that and we had to hand in our log book so, and that’s where I, I finished up there. I finished up the Air Force.
DM: So, you went home to Birchington.
CB: So, went back to Birchington and picked up in the garage where I was on there. I stayed. Stopped for about, about two weeks I think it was before I went back to them and asked them, ‘Can I have my job back?’ And the answer was that, ‘Yeah. I suppose we’ve got to, haven’t we?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ [laughs] So that was as far as the garage work was concerned. I stayed on the, there until I got cheeky to one of the governors there. The old, old chap that was there, owned the garage. Mr Jenner. He’d got three sons. They were running it and one of them was, I always remember because he was, he was the driver one. He used to drive you to keep you going and he said something to me which was a bit sarcastic and he finished up by saying so and so and so and so, ‘Old boy.’ I said, ‘Alright, I’ll show you old boy.’ That was it. Cards [laughs]
DM: When did you, did you always stay in touch with the pilot or any of the other crew or was that later on?
CB: Yes. We kept in touch with, with Dave and he was —
DM: Did he fly again do you know? After.
CB: No. He never flew again. No. His hand was so damaged he could never do anything in ops. I believe he did do a couple of flights before he went but it was nothing to do with flying in anger at all. It was just he wanted to keep his hand in a bit but — [pause] So he used to be a pianist. A schoolmaster and a pianist as well but he never played the piano again after that. He couldn’t, you see.
DM: No.
CB: It put his hand right out of action. Yeah. So, anyway —
DM: So, he went. Did he go home to Australia?
CB: Yeah. He went back to Australia and of course he had to [pause] I think it was a hospital ship he had to go back in. Anyway, he picked up where he left off but he still had troubles afterwards, you know because it had really knocked him out a bit. He also, whilst he was invalided in this country before he went back he, he’d got, I think it was pleurisy whilst he was in hospital. He was in Rauceby Hospital. And that, and then whilst we was, oh whilst we were on, on sick leave, yes, that’s right. Whilst we were on sick leave because that was about three months wasn’t it that we were off sick leave? He did come down to my family’s home in Birchington and so, so he got quite attached to, he stayed with us for a couple of nights and I’ve been in touch with them more or less ever since.
DM: Did you ever visit him in Australia?
CB: I thought of going to Australia but as far as, that just wouldn’t happen because the money in those days was very, very poor. I mean when I used to work in the garage I used to take home five pound a week. That was with Saturday overtime as well. So that, most of that went on food and lodging and, I don’t know.
DM: After you got your cards did you stay in the garage trade or did you change tack?
CB: No. No. No. When, when I got the cards I went on to, I picked up another job working in an ice cream factory [laughs] That was interesting but we used to make the ice cream and I used to be, as a driver I used to deliver it as well. Went to all the shops. We were doing, quite a nice business that was. Yeah. So —
DM: When did you move up to Surbiton area?
CB: Oh, that, that was after I’d been messed around with little odd jobs like that of course [pause] Oh, whilst, whilst I was still at the garage we, I used to go into Margate with about two or three of us ex-service and just to have a drink and pass around Margate et cetera, and that’s where we met up with a couple of girls there. And they were, we were we always used to leave it ‘til we missed the last bus home which was about a three and a half miles walk and we were just starting to come back to Birchington and met these two girls and they said, ‘We can’t find our hotel.’ So I said, ‘Well, what’s the name of it? Where is it?’ I says, it was on the way to where we were going so, ‘We’ll take you there.’ And that’s it. Anyway, the outcome of that was I kept in touch with one of them, was Dorothy and after about eighteen months I think it was we got married but she was living in Surbiton and this is how I came up this way. When the jobs were getting a bit dodgy Dot’s father, Dorothy’s father, he said, he said, ‘Do you want, do you fancy working up with me?’ And that was with the Metropolitan Water Board in Surbiton. And I said, I asked all about it and so the first thing we knew was that, ‘Oh, yes. Well, yes I can but what’s the wages?’ ‘Oh, it would be starting at ten pound a week.’ I thought ten pound? Double what I was getting and so I said yes. So, we come up to Surbiton and I was with the Metropolitan Water Board working in the engineering side and that was for about a year or something like that I think and it was getting a bit boring on there although it was interesting work because we used to do the engineering side. Then I went on to looking after the boilers on there because they were steam turbines on there and they used to have the massive great big boilers. It was the pumping station for most of the west of London, you know. Surbiton, Kingston, Putney, Honor Oak, Battersea. You know, all those surrounding in that section of, of what’s the name? And, and then of course when I finished with the, oh I thought it was about time I had a change after I’d been on there for a while. After I went on to an inspection course as an inspector of water fittings et cetera up in Battersea. And that was, that was about a three mile ride again every day on the bike. Yes. And then from then on I was really doing quite well on that because in the end was, you know I was always checking around people’s leaks, looking after tap washers and things like that and anything new, used to look after that. Make sure they’d done all the fittings correctly and up to British Standard specs et cetera. And then I thought well what’s the next move now because this was getting a bit stale again. And so I thought well, the next move on that would have been if you wanted to go any further stages going upwards you’d have to wait for an inspection side, supervising et cetera. You had to wait ‘til somebody either dies or retires. That wasn’t very good as far as I was concerned so I went in to, took a radio engineer’s course. You know, what do they call it when you do it by post?
DM: Telegrams?
CB: What?
DM: Telegrams? Right?
Other: Correspondence.
CB: Correspondence course.
DM: Correspondence. I see what you mean. You did a correspondence course on radio engineering. Yes.
CB: A correspondence course. Radio engineers. And on the strength of that I got a job with EMI. Electrical Musical Industries. And that was to do with Ministry of Defence work doing all the sensing heads for all these different missiles. Skyflash, Seawolf and you’ve probably heard of some of those and we were working on that. I lasted about twenty six, I think, years altogether.
DM: So, that one kept your interest up. That one did.
CB: That kept my interest on that one. It was, it was quite good because it was all good work and always up to the highest standards. I was overlooked most of the time by Minister of Defence officials to see that work was done up to the standard wanted and it was quite interesting. I finished up being in charge of one, one section there until, until I retired. But I did have a heart attack about two years before that and so that sort of put me off song a bit and oh yes because that was when I had the heart attack I had to have a kick start on that one.
DM: Right.
CB: And so anyway, I did go on for a bit longer and then of course retired.
DM: So, looking back on your days in the RAF do you have fond memories of it now or —
CB: Well, I know that I’ve never never forgotten a lot of it. Most of it was what, what happened during, whilst we were at Kelstern but the sort of, that stuck in your mind. I remember things about that that, well just don’t go. I still remember it quite a lot in the details of what goes on there. Yeah. That plane which when Dave and I both got wounded and the windscreen blown out. That plane never flew again neither so it must have been well and truly peppered because it never did fly again. So —
[pause]
CB: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Cyril Edwin Bailey
Creator
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David Meanwell
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-04-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABaileyCE180424
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:05:31 audio recording
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
Cyril Bailey was working in a garage before he volunteered for the RAF. He considered that he would like to be a mechanic but was told there were no vacancies and he was encouraged to become a flight engineer. He joined 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern and became the only English member of an all-Australian crew. On an operation to Dortmund he and the pilot were both injured by shrapnel. The pilot’s hand was so badly injured he was no longer able to play the piano which had been one of his jobs as a pre-war teacher. On another occasion the bomb aimer made his way past Cyril and collapsed. Cyril applied oxygen and revived him. While on an operation three other aircraft were in view when they were attacked by an ME 262 who shot down the other aircraft and was just closing in on Cyril’s aircraft when the pilot executed a corkscrew manoeuvre and they were able to escape. While with another crew Cyril was walking to briefing with his pilot and said he expected the operation that night would be Dortmund. This proved to be the case. The pilot made sure to fly within the gaggle because this was like a premonition. After his tour of operations Cyril was posted to India as a driver.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
India
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Dortmund
Wales--Glamorgan
Netherlands
Netherlands--Wassenaar
England--Yorkshire
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944-11-29
1945
625 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Distinguished Flying Medal
flight engineer
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Me 262
military service conditions
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
RAF Lindholme
RAF St Athan
superstition
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/253/3400/PFellowesD1501.2.jpg
e88ffe00536dab58919683f9b4889b66
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/253/3400/AFellowesD150406.1.mp3
2e0bb6d3e178d0c61e40d54ef14a6507
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Fellowes, David
David Fellowes
Dave Fellowes
D Fellowes
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Two oral history interviews with Flight Sergeant David "Dave" Fellowes (Royal Air Force), documents and a photograph. He flew operations as a rear gunner with 460 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by David Fellowes and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-11-25
2015-04-06
2016-08-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Fellowes, D
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
(AP) This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is David Fellowes. Mr Fellowes was a rear gunner in a Lancaster aircraft. The interview is taking place at The Princess Marina House in Rustington, West Sussex on 6th April 2015. Apologies for the poor sound quality at the beginning of the interview due to static on a tie clip microphone.
(DF) [Static] I’d just passed out of gunnery school number 1 ATS at Pembury South Wales and we all went on leave as brand new young Sergeant air gunners. Whilst we were on leave, we received our postings where we were going to go and what was going to happen to us. In my case, I was posted to 30 OTU in in a place called Hickson in Staffordshire. So I left home [unclear]. The first stop was Crewe and I got to Crewe, we had to change trains to go to Stafford. On the train, there I was sitting alone and all a sudden three Australian Flight Sergeants pilots came bustling in. Well we soon made up a little conversation and I asked one of them whereabouts in Australia do you come from and he said: ‘Sydney.’ I said: ‘Oh yes.’ I said: ‘I know it’s a long shot I have an aunt in Sydney. She went out there after the First World War with her husband and have a sports business.’ ‘Oh,’ he said ‘Do you know what part of Sydney?’ ‘Yes in the district called Marrickville.’ ‘Oh,’ he said ‘That’s funny now I used to live in Marrickville. What road did she live in?’ I told him: ‘Illawarra Road and her name is Mrs Ivy Evans.’ Well he made a rather quick Australian [phone in background] good word and he said: ‘Well that lady happened to be my mother’s best friend. Chapel friend.’ So he said: ‘Well we also have something no much in common so will you be guarding me, we’re gonna be on the same course.’ So I said: ‘Yes, why not indeed.’ So when we did get to Hickson we were on the same course and, of course, I crewed up with him. We made the backbone of the crew. The two of us. Flying at 30 OTU, of course, on Wellingtons you didn’t require a Flight Engineer. When we were posted from Hickson, we went up to 1656 Heavy Conversion Unit to convert from the Wellington on course onto the Halifax. It was here up at Lindholme that we gathered the seventh member of the crew, our flight engineer. In this case we didnt have a choice, we were sitting on one side of the large room and the flight engineers were sitting on the other and names were rung out the captains name and then the Flight Engineer’s name and we were getting a bit close towards the end and there was this very old looking gentleman sitting down over there and I said to my skipper: ‘Hey Art I bet we get the old [unclear] over there.’ And, of course, what happened they called his name out: ‘Sergeant Shephard Flight Engineer you will fly with Flight Sergeant Whitmarshand crew.’ So we got this old gentleman. He was a family man already and, in fact, his trade was, in fact, a master baker, would you believe, but he was an excellent Flight Engineer. He really did know his stuff and we were very well pleased to have him but, of course, he was the daddy of the crew. If I remember rightly, he was about 38 years old. [Mobile phone ringing]. We passed out from the Conversion Unit at Lindholme and it was - we were destined to go to a Lancaster Squadron. So we had to go Lanc finishing school [mobile phone ringing] which was relatively a quick changeover from a Halifax to the Lancaster for the benefit of the pilot. Most of the rest of the crew especially the gunners had had experience on both kinds of turrets on each airplane. Anyhow, so it didn’t really worry us too much. Anyhow our skip did ask us if we could – how we felt going to an Australian Squadron, so we said: ‘Arh yes,’ because we knew there were advantages to going to Commonwealth or Colonial Squadron, and that was they were all on permanent RAF stations and had good quarters, married quarters so when you got there you never saw Nissan huts, wooden huts and things like that. You stayed in a married quarter. Married quarters, of course, were empty because wives weren’t allowed to be on the station during the war. When we got to Binbrook, we were allocated Number 13 Airman’s Married Quarters and it was there that we set up house. When one got to the Squadron, one of course had to check in, you went around with your arrival chit with all the different departments getting the signatures so they knew you were there. You reported and found out what flight you were going to and we went to B Flight which was in Number 1 Hanger. Well we were very lucky. It was a good flight. There was a lot of happy old people there and, of course, before we went on ops we did a training flight and then normally what happened was your skipper would go off with an experienced crew to see what it was all like. Well, low and behold that wasn’t going to happen to us. The Station Commander, Group Captain Edwards VC, DSO, DFC and bar said: ‘Oh, I’ll take Whitmarsh and his crew to Friesburg.’ Well ‘course word gets around the station about who you’re gonna fly with they say : ‘Dear oh dear oh dear.’ ‘Cause he had got a bit of a reputation. Quite a good one really but nevertheless he set off and took us to Friesburg. Coming up before we got to Friesburg , well way before Friesburg before we got to the bomb line we passed over an American sector. AnAmerican sector for some unknown reason didn’t care for us flying over their sector very much and opened fire on us and we did in fact got hit by flak. Well this rather upset the Group Captain [chuckle] which is quite understandable. He – no he wasn’t impressed with that. He did mention something about dropping a little bomb on them to keep them quiet but it didn’t happen. Anyhow the trip went on we did as we did – should have done and then coming home before we came home he had to go down and look at the target to see everything was alright and then, of course, we turned round and came home. My role in Bomber Command as an Air Gunner was to protect the crew from any form of enemy fighter attack. Now in the – I volunteered to go into the rear turret. I erh didn’t want to go in the mid upper turret, my other gunner fortunately did. He didn’t mind sitting up in the turret that would turn 360 degrees all the way round. I much preferred to sit in the rear turret by myself with four Browning 303 machine guns. It was a cold lonely place, yes, it was, it used to get very cold. It could be down to minus 14. Icicles would hang from your oxygen mask and erh – we were lucky though we did have an electrically heated slippers and we also had electrically heated gloves. These weren’t too good because it made your fingers too thick and bulky if you wanted to do anything but nevertheless I survived in the rear turret, though on one occasion while I was in the rear turret we’d gone to Stuttgart and as we were coming out there were two Lancasters signalling down, just behind us on the port side andthere was a Halifax on the starboard side. We did have wireless operator looking out through the astrodome checking on any fighter activity and also to make sure that nobody was going to drop any bombs on us which could happen. We had spotted a Wolfe 190 cruise over us so we thought hello there are fighters about. Then all of a sudden around the back of these two Lancasters, which were just a bit lower than us and on the port side, a JU88 came right in close. I opened fire, the mid upper opened fire and we gave the order to climb port but I can still sit here and see bullets and cannon shells ripping right alongside me into our aeroplane. Well, the tail plane was pretty well damaged and so was one of the fins and rudders, the - one of the fuel tanks was ruptured, the starboard wing fuel tank was ruptured and unfortunately our mid upper gunner got hit in the neck[?] which meant he had to be taken out of the turret, put onto the rest bed, given morphine and well looked after until we got back home. The fighter that I’d had the combat with I maintained firing at it all the time until all of a sudden it flipped onto its port wing nose went down and it went straight the way down and it looked completely out of control. Well we reported all this is our debriefing when we got back home. Made out a gunnery-you know - slip, and then, er, we did hear later that we had it confirmed that we got that JU88. The 7th of January 1945 is a day that I shall perhaps never forget in all my life but we were scheduled to fly to Munich in O-Oboe. Now O-Oboe was in fact our aeroplane. It’s a fact that on our squadron after you had proved yourself and you were doing your job properly and looking after things, you were given your own aeroplane to look after. That meant also you had a ground staff looking after that aeroplane as well. This particular night we were scheduled to fly to Munich which is a fairly long way into Germany. On the main sector down to the River Rhine we were scheduled to fly at 14000 feet so we stuck to the rules be flying at 14000 feet but when we got down to the area just prior to the River Rhine in Alzey[?] which, of course, used to be German territory we found ourselves in very thick nasty cloud and we were bumped around all over the place and you could feel the airplane being kinda damp. It wasn’t very pleasant. It wasn’t very nice at all. Our skipper said that he thought that we perhaps oughta climb and get out of this bad weather and also to get away from any icing up. Well the crew all agreed and so, I do remember him asking the flight engineer for climbing power. I can remember hearing the engines increase in power and away we went to climb up out of the cloud. As we came out of the cloud at the top, I don’t know what the exact height, it must have been about another 15 thou - to 15000 feet or more, there were other aircraft who’d already gone up there and it was quite clear but all of a sudden there was a great big thump – a bump. Well we - somebody said: ‘Christ, we’ve been hit.’ And we were, in fact, hit by another Lancaster coming out the cloud and as we were fly along just above the top of the cloud the other Lancaster came out and put his port wing into our fuselage. Er, our starboard wing we lost round about six foot and we think, we think it just went into their flight deck because that airplane just peeled off and went straight down and we can remember the explosion. Now our aeroplane had received this big thump. We went into a spin for 3000 feet and eventually the skipper got it out. He then ordered bombs to be dropped safe, so the bombs were dropped safe. That just meant that they wouldn’t explode when they hit the ground and from then we sorted it all out and climbed up to 20000 feet, above icing level and we took stock of what had happened. We had, in fact, possibly lost about six foot of the starboard wingtip, the starboard airline[?] was all chewed up and there was hole in the fuselage from the trailing edge of the starboard wing virtually back to the door and floor side of the fuselage and the floor had disappeared. Miraculously the mid upper gunner was still up in his turret. It was decided by the Flight Engineer and the Wireless Operator that they could get him forward ‘cause there was the possibility that the turret could have fallen through. They got him out and up to the front. Well that left me down in the back in my little turret which as still operational ‘cause it worked off number one engine and as I said we were going to go back to the UK to land at Lymonsea[?] Airfield, Manston and it was here on the way that the skipper said to me: ‘You know David that the tail’s swinging. Perhaps you oughta think about bailing out if you wish.’ ‘Cause otherwise, my chances of getting away would have been pretty slim but I declined this offer. I said: ‘No, I can’t do that and can’t leave you lot on your own.’ Besides that there was still the possibility that we could get jumped by a night fighter. So we flew on and flew on at a reduced speed until we got to the French coast. We could see Manston and there we made a long approach. A flapless landing at Man – at Manston. On landing at Manston, a follow me truck went out and we followed that down to where they wanted us to park the aeroplane. The crew in the front of the aeroplane couldn’t get out through the back because of the damage that had been done – the hole – so they had to forward the forward escape hatch. I, myself, was able to vacate my turret and just got out the normal way down through the rear door. They took us up to then the – to be debriefed, but had a look at the aircraft first and we thought Dear God. How did we get this aeroplane back? We were so grateful the fact that all the control rods of the aeroplane ran down the port side of the aeroplane. It was all the starboard side, of course, had sustained all the damage. So, yeah, we considered ourselves very very lucky. Went back up to flying control where we were debriefed, given somewhere to sleep and the next morning we had hoped that one of our own airplanes from the squadron would come down and pick us up. But, unfortunately, bad weather set in, both in Manston where it snowed and also at Binbrook. So, we were stuck there for a couple of days and we were playing snowballs larking about. Nothing to do. And all of a sudden, a voice called out: ‘Right you lot, you’re going back to Binbrook by train.’ So there we were all manner of dress. God, it was really terrible, really. And they gave us some money. We went down to Margate first of all. Got a transport down to Margate to get a train to London. When we got into Margate, we decided well – we hadn’t had a shave for about three days. So we hopped into a barbershop which was run by ladies. Their husbands were looking – had gone off into the army and these ladies were looking after the shop. Anyhow, we sat there and would you believe they gave us a reasonable shave with safety razors. Anyhow, after having a shave and bit tidied up, we went up to – we thought we better have a photograph taken of all this. So we went into a photographers and we got this photograph taken and we all signed it. We’ve all got one each and then got the train up to London. When we got up to London – oh dear oh dear – well you can imagine the state of us holding our parachutes, Mae-Wests, helmets over your shoulders still, flying boots some, some not. And, of course, there happened to be a service policeman and, of course, he stopped us and asked what he thought we were on. Well, our skipper Arthur Whitmarsh he really told him what we were on in good Australian language and we didnt hear any more about that. And from there, of course,then we back up by train up to Binbrook and we were – well, of course, they were pleased to see us again, but inside a week we were flying again. 23 of March 1945 we were briefed for a daytime raid on Bremen. Everybody thought we’re in for a straightforward flight. We were told that if anything went wrong we would have to fire off the colours of the day and the American fighter escort, of Thunderbolts and Mustangs, would come down and give us a close escort. We flew, no problem, through to Bremen. We then dropped our bombs right on target. We were running out of the target and all of a sudden, we were badly hit by flak between the two starboard engines number three and number four. Well they both stopped. They had to be feathered. Then, of course, we started to lose height and, of course, we weren’t so fast either. All the other aircraft were overtaking us. To – we then fired off the colours of the day which was done partly to alert the US fighter boys to give us fighter cover. Unfortunately we didnt see a thing. We were, if I remember rightly, flying round about 20000 feet and, of course, well we weren’t all that far from home anyway Bremen, so we set course back to back to base and well the poor old skipper up the front there, besides having full on rudder on to keep the aeroplane straight and he turned round and said when he landed, he said: ‘I’m sure I got one leg longer than the other.’ But we got back home alright. We made a good two engine landing at Binbrook again. No big problem. There was occasions particularly one unit we went to Hanover[?] when we discovered that the German ME262 was being used in operations against Lancasters. Now we did, unfortunately, have an occurrence where in the area of the raid the ME262, the German jet fighter, was quite prominent in action against Lancasters. Now, we had thought about the best way of combatting this, bearing in mind, of course, that the ME262 was a much faster aeroplane than the JU88, ME109 and the other aeroplanes Wolfe 190 and that we only had a 50 mile an hour overtaking speed gunsight[?],that the best thing to do was to take good avoiding action. But but we did this. The matter of fact if you’re flying straight and level and you spot an aeroplane, shall we say, on your port quarter high when he makes an attack he’s got to make a double back, like this, to get onto your tail and it was when he did that double back that you would then, if he was high, climb port therefore he couldn’t follow and so he’d have to break off the engagement. [Pause] This attack by the Germans JU88 was again, of course, at night time. It was - although it was night time it was very light because I can remember the cloud the way we looked down was covering the German countryside was quite still white and it was quite light up there, but soon as the attack started the JU88 open fire and his, his firing was more continuous. My reply was in short bursts round about four five seconds. This is done deliberately because a you don’t want your guns to overheat. You want to conserve ammunition, of course, as well if necessary. But I could still see the bullets from - well they weren’t bullets in his case, they were cannon shells whizzing past me and , damaging the aeroplane, where my 303 bullets which included tracer firing directly into him. One of the problems we had in aerial combat was that the enemy in German Luftwaffe aircraft they had far better and more powerful guns than we did. They had cannons point 5 where to us all we could offer was the ordinary 303 rifle bullet. Although, we - in our every three bullets that we fired there was one bore, one armour piercing, one err ahh incendiary –
(AP) Lets do that one again.
(DF) - one. Our bullets, we were set in a series of five. We had the ordinary ball bullet. We would have an incendiary bullet; we had an explosive bullet and a tracer. And there – that was repeated all the way along, this way you could see where your bullets were going and also, of course, if they were converged at the right angle at the right time, of course, they could do quite a little bit of destruction. Initially our gun sights was straight forward, ring and bead. That was a fixed ring that had a bead in the centre. This could be lit up at night time and when you rotated your turret, either way, of course, the gun sight went with it. Also, if you elevated your guns the gun sight, of course, went with it. We did later on towards the end had some experimental gun sights involving radar and gyros. We had the Mark 14 gyro sight which, of course, was a much improved version and it even guaranteed 98 per cent hits. So that was a big advantage to us. It – but unfortunately it all came in too late. It didn’t come into the beginning of 1945. [Pause] What did we did really do when we got out to our aeroplane? Well, normally we would have a chat with the ground staff crew and we’d have a last cigarette ‘cause we never smoked inside the aeroplane and normally wanted a quick pee. The usual place was against the tail wheel. Everybody eventually get into the aeroplane and take up their positions and carry out the checks that they had to do and there you’d sit until okay you were given instructions to taxi the aeroplane. The pilot would then taxi the aeroplane away down the taxiway onto the runway. He’d get a green from the runway controller and you’d open the throttles and you’d tear down the runway and Grace of God you got yourself airborne. Now from that onwards, that point onwards sitting in your rear turret well you did have a lot to do. First,you’d done all your checks before you’d take off. You’d done that. And you’d keep a watch out first all for other aircraft coming in towards the bombers stream. So you – you know you would try to miss any other aircraft that were flying around in the stream. Further than that you go on to occupied Germany and there then you’d have to keep your eyes open and look for enemy aircraft. We did this by basically turning the rear turret where search – where you’d turn from port to go right the way round starboard, lift up a little way and right the way back round again and you’d do a square search right up as far as you could see and then start all over again. This way, of course, then your chances of – well you wouldn’t miss any aircraft coming in towards you. Further to that, in our crew we used to roll the aeroplane a little bit to make sure that there was nothing coming up underneath. So you can see, you sat there and you were doing something all the time. This way, of course, prevented you feeling too cold. You were kept active all the time. Your skipper would call you up about anything around every 10 to 15 minutes. ‘Are you alright?’ The main thing being, of course, are you still getting your oxygen which was an important thing?
(AP) What about the bit about beneath the aircraft - the attacks – vulnerable?
(DF) Well –
(AP) Would you talk a little bit about that?
(DF) The - they started to use – the Germans started to use the JU88 – I can’t remember the name of it – something music.
(AP) Shraeder music.
(DF) Shraeder music. And, of course, they came up, to hit you not in the body of the aeroplane because if they did and the aeroplane blew up, they’d most likely get blown up as well. They really aimed at your fuel tanks in the wing and once they were really afire, well of course, your chances of doing anything about it were not very very good. Some aeroplanes towards the end did have armour piercing protection and have [unclear] so that the tanks wouldn’t catch fire – but, no, that music, we just used to roll the aeroplane just so we could see underneath.
(AP) I mean, the bit about removing the Perspex? And the flak, the flak must have been going off. Little pings.
(DF) Yeah but you didn’t think about it.
(AP) No.
(DF) You accepted it, you know. Part of life’s rich pattern. [Unclear] What you wanna talk about first?
(AP) Hang on.
(DF) To aid your vision we thought that it’d be a good idea to remove a lot of the Perspex from your rear turret. Now, there was good reason for this as well – as well as including good vision the Captain and the Flight Engineer used to clear their engines round about every 20 minutes to half and hour, that means they would take them up to full power and, of course, it burnt off carbon which used to fly out from the exhaust. Now, we didnt like this because it would give away that you was an aeroplane somewhere there and the other was those little specks of carbon would stick on your Perspex, and if you had a little dot on your Perspex you’d immediately think it was a fighter. An enemy aircraft. So, to get out of all of this we asked to have all the Perspex taken out. And they took the Perspex out and there it solved the problem. But also, yes, it was a little bit colder but the other good thing was you didn’t have a lot of Perspex to clean.
(AP) What about the noise and ping-ping?
(DF) When one was approaching the target I often used to think that, there was the Pilot, the Flight Engineer and the Bomb Aimer up at the front of the aeroplane they could see all what was happening. They could see searchlights up ahead penetrating the sky often in groups of three or more with blue and one which was a master searchlight and the others were attached to it. The akk akk often was a bit more fierce [unclear] as you approached the target and, of course, there was always the risk of other airplanes dropping bombs on you or you colliding with them. Flak in itself used to come up. You’d hear the bang. Then you’d often hear ping. Ping as the little pieces of the shrapnel casing penetrate the aeroplane. The ground staff used to count these when you got back home, but also you could sometimes smell all the cordite from the shells themselves when they exploded. I used to sit in my turret and, of course, I didnt see all of this until, as we had - the bomb aimer dropped his bomb we’d flown straight and level for the required length of time, so we got a photo flash and then, of course, I said to myself : ‘Good God. Did we go through all that lot?’ You know, say ‘Oh well. That’s it.’ But, of course, by that time the skipper dropped the nose down and we’re turning round and we’re off back home which – prior to going on any raid it was important that before you went for your briefing and crew meal before the flight that you got as much rest in as you can. So normally, you would go and have a good lie and a sleep before you went for your crew meal in the mess and then went to the debriefing. Now, of course, there was all of you together, the seven of you and you were chatting away. You weren’t – never showed any signs of fear or – can’t think of the real word – but they all felt quite pleasant, happy about what we got to do and you got into your aeroplane and you settled down and comfort relatively and away you went. I don’t think we ever thought about it. How long it was except you knew it would be good when you got back home and had another crew meal and, of course, the promise of a large glass of rum, which was an incentive. [Chuckle]. People wonder about why we did all this. Well first of all, of course, we volunteered for this kind of work. The RAF couldn’t make you fly as aircrew. So we knew what we were going into. We knew that there would be short trips, heavily defended; we knew there’d be long trips to do and it was part of the day’s work. We knew what – we knew what we were up to and people just didnt really think about the bad side of it. You just got on and did a job of work which we were paid for. In our particular crew, we did a lot of training. We made up our minds we were gonna survive and, of course, we did.
(AP) And you –
(DF) And I think a lot of that was due to the fact that our attitude to the job.
(AP) You you never felt that terror or fear? You just got on with it?
(DF) No, no but also one of the other things of course, some of us would have in mind, of course, that terrible thing called if somebody got to a stage where they didnt want to fly any more, they’d had it. They’d go LMF Lack of Moral Fibre, but, of course, the hardest part of that was going to the CO and admitting it, it was a big thing to admit.
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AFellowesD150406
PFellowesD1501
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Interview with Dave Fellowes
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eng
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00:38:49 audio recording
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Pending review
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Andrew Panton
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2015-04-06
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Dave Fellowes flew operations as a rear gunner with 460 Squadron. He and his crew survived a mid-air collision with another Lancaster which resulted in an emergency landing at RAF Manston.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Kent
England--Lincolnshire
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1945-04
1945-05
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Gemma Clapton
1656 HCU
30 OTU
460 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Me 262
mid-air collision
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Binbrook
RAF Hixon
RAF Lindholme
RAF Manston
taxiway
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/607/8876/AMaywoodRM151109.2.mp3
773cbbdec73ec1fb4e55919303593c37
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Maywood, Dick
Richard M Maywood
R M Maywood
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Maywood, RM
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Three items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Richard 'Dick' Maywood (1923 -2016, 1623169 Royal Air Force), his log book and a certificate. He flew operations as a navigator with 608 and 692 Squadrons.
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2015-11-09
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Transcription
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CB: This was the, this was the interview with Mr Richard ‘Dick’ Maywood at xxxx and he was a Mosquito Pathfinder navigator.
[Recording resumes]
RM: Above the main bomber stream. Twenty eight thousand. We carried one cookie.
CB: Four thousand pounder.
RM: Four thousand pounder.
CB: Yeah.
RM: And we had the Mosquitoes with the bulged belly. Now a lot of those — that was the B16. A lot of those appeared in the film, “633 Squadron.” Now, that film was the biggest load of bullshit you ever came across. It was so ridiculous that a lot of people would believe it. The bombs which they showed being loaded up on these, for the operation, were cookies. The four thousand pounder bombs that we carried with the peculiar tail fin added and they were supposed to drop these bombs so that they hit the base of the rock and bring it down. Now, with the four thousand pounder we were told safety height above one of those is five thousand feet or more. They wouldn’t have been more than five hundred feet away from that rock. So, the best part of that film as I was concerned was the theme song. The theme music.
CB: Yes. Exciting.
RM: Which I intend to have played at the end of my funeral service.
CB: Oh right.
RM: Because I’m gone.
CB: Yeah.
RM: The other Mosquito film they made. “Mosquito Squadron.” Again. That was largely, sort of, bull but there was one interesting point there which is true and that is the point where they had Mosquitoes practicing dropping bombs or lobbing bombs in to tunnels and that actually did occur. And one of the Polish squadrons. I think it was 305 was involved in that but other than that away we go. The Amiens raid which was a true one.
CB: Pickard. Yeah.
RM: That formed the basis of Mosquito squadrons attack. So, in actual fact “Mosquito Squadron” in spite of the American CO and all that sort of nonsense did contain certain aspects which were very true. Curiously enough, as I say, most of the light night striking force operations were either nuisance raids to divert fighter aircraft from the main bomber stream and were raids in their own right or they were on the same targets but about a mile higher than the main stream. So, some of them, the runs, were particularly with Berlin. They used to call that the Milk Run.
CB: Yeah.
RM: Yeah.
CB: So how did that work?
RM: In exactly the same way as an ordinary raid would be set out. You’d be given the route. You’d plot the route. And you’d be given the Met winds which the weather people had found and were vital because A — you needed it for navigation in the days of steam navigation. And you also needed it as the only setting to be put on the Mark 14 bomb sight. And that was the gyroscopically controlled one. I can tell you a story about that too. I shared a bombing range with a B17 on one occasion at Boxmoor near Oxford. We’re at twenty five thousand feet. We had six practice bombs. It was a NFT. And I was sharing a range with a B17 and he could not have been more than fifteen thousand feet. With the bomb and the pickle barrel from thirty thousand feet. Norden bomb sight. His bombing error was twice mine. I was knocking up around about sixty, seventy yards and he was around about the, probably a hundred and twenty, hundred and fifty yards and as I say he was probably ten thousand feet below me. Two miles below me. So much for the American bomb sight. And that Bomb sight the bombardier had to take it out of the aircraft every time he flew and put it back in to safe keeping and then draw it out because they didn’t want the Germans to get it. But what they’d overlooked was the fact that the Germans had hacked down quite a lot of B17s and knew everything about the bombsight. But there we go. I’m afraid that you are probably going to think that I am very biased against the Americans. I’m very biased against the American navy. And I’m not particularly, sort of enthusiastic about their air force either. Any air force which bombed in daylight, in formation. Well, at a steady height. Steady speed. Nearest approach to suicide you could get. The B17 crews, I must admit, were very very brave people. Very brave people. But in those days as I say we hadn’t got much reference for them because most of the big B17 stations were around here. in this area. Northamptonshire.
CB: Near Peterborough.
RM: Peterborough and that area.
CB: Yeah.
CB: And all that area. And George, my pilot, if we were coming off a night flying test he’d look around for one of these and he’d formate on a B17 and sort of drop his undercarriage and put the flaps down and sort of follow on its wingtips and then when he’d had enough of that he’d go clean. Both engines. And then he’d fly in a circle around them as they went along because I mean we could do a hundred and ninety knots quite comfortably on one engine. But to give you some idea. On one occasion, on an authorised low flying exercise an American B, a P47, the Mustang — formated on us. “Air Police” written along it’s side and he was going like this. More or less telling us to get up. I gave him the washout sign. I said to George my pilot, I said, ‘We’ve got a visitor.’ ‘What’s that?’ He looked, ‘Oh him,’ he said. He said, ‘Let’s teach him a lesson.’ And he just took both engines through the gate and we left.
CB: Left him standing.
RM: Within a minute he was a dot. He could have beaten us at low level because of course our B16s that we were flying at that time, although it’s low level, really didn’t get into their own until we were at twenty one thousand feet or over. But going through the gate gave us that little bit extra. And that was it. Because we used to — from Downham Market we exited down between the old and new Bedford Levels right down to Royston. That was our route out. Incidentally, after VE day they said, ‘You’re coming off high level bombing. You’re going low level daylight in the far east and map reading.’ Now, that is the equivalent of going off an HGV on to formula one practically. Now, a lot of people don’t believe this but I can assure you, hand on heart, that it’s true. We were told, ‘Now, when you go to low level that is fifteen to twenty five feet.’ And we did it. Fortunately, my pilot, when he was an instructor in Canada at Estevan on Oxfords had four instances of collecting rubbish from the undercarriage of his Oxfords. Low level. Unauthorised. But he was very very good at it [laughs] and we had quite an amusing incident to do with that but if we go back to the light night striking force. As I say that was part of 8 Group which was given the permission to put eight, in brackets, PFF force. Group rather. Pathfinder force. Because each station in 8 Group had one Mosquito which was mainly light night striking force and one squadron of Lancs which were again associated with the Pathfinder force and they were equipped with H2S which gave you the map. And of course H2S was the result of quite a lot of Lancs being shot down because the night fighters, German night fighters could tune in. Home in on them and bang. And then again, the Germans had a very nasty idea called Schrage Musik which you’ve probably heard of. The upward firing guns. So, they’d home in underneath an unsuspecting Lanc and bang. That was it. But once they got wind of this then they put the Mosquito night fighters in with the bombers and that did reduce the losses a little because it upset the Germans. Now, is there any aspect that I could fill you in on? Because I don’t exactly know what you’re after you see.
CB: That’s alright. So, what I’d like to suggest is that we start with your earliest recollections of your life. What you did at school? Where you were born? And then after school what did you do?
RM: Yeah.
CB: And how did you come to join the RAF?
RM: Yeah.
CB: I’m just going to stop for a mo.
RM: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Hang on. Let me just get it started again. So now we’re restarting with the early days, Dick.
RM: Yeah.
CB: So, where you were you born and —
RM: I was born —
CB: Just up the road.
RM: Just around the corner.
CB: In Peterborough.
RM: In Peterborough yes. I went to the local school which is about a hundred and fifty yards around the corner from here as an infant. From five to seven. They had the junior section then from seven to eleven and when I was eleven I got a scholarship to the local grammar school which was called Deacon’s School. Peterborough had two grammar schools. Deacon’s and King’s, of which, of course, there was very considerable a rivalry between the two [laughs] as you can imagine. Now, with King’s School it didn’t matter so much about passing the school cert exam. Eleven plus equal. With King’s School you had to be able to sing because that was the Cathedral School. And curiously enough at the service yesterday at the Peterborough Cathedral I remarked on the fact that we must be getting old because the choirboys looked smaller and smaller. I was actually in school to hear war declared. I’d reached the sixth form. And we were actually called in during the holiday to the sixth form to deal with the evacuees from London. Now they, that started on a Friday. The evacuees came into the school and we were there to separate these various children and give them to the groups to which they’d been allocated so that they could be taken to their future homes. And about half past ten, quarter to eleven on the Sunday morning the headmaster came around and said, ‘Forget about the evacuees. All of you assemble in the music room because Neville Chamberlain is going to speak to the nation at 11 o’clock.’ So, we went in there and we heard the war declared and that was that. Now, I came to the conclusion then that instead of staying on to go, say to do my A levels and go to university if that would be interrupted by war service. Now, I’d always been, from the age of about nine when I’d got a book called the Boy’s Book of Aircraft for a Christmas present I’d always been interested in the flying aspect. Biggles and all that sort of thing. And I developed quite an interest in flying from the reading point of view and from the model aircraft point of view. And I thought well why not volunteer for the air force. So as soon as I was eighteen, that was in 1941, I nipped up to Cambridge because at eighteen if I volunteered for the air force I wouldn’t be called up for the army or the navy. And so, I volunteered. I was accepted for further investigation. That was in 1941 and then in December ‘41 was called to Cardington where I had my aircrew medicals and aptitude tests and was accepted as future aircrew. And much to my annoyance, that was December ’41, I was actually called up to Lord’s Cricket Ground August bank holiday Monday 1942. I hopped off one foot on to the other. I thought that was a dirty trick [laughs] Anyway, we were assailed with needles and vaccinations and boots to be cleaned and uniforms. Paraded up and down Earl’s Court and so on and went to the zoo for meals. From there I eventually went to Number 6 ITW at Aberystwyth. I’d only been there about six weeks on a ten weeks course when I had to report sick on the Tuesday. I’d got a swollen throat and what not. Sore throat. Went to the sick quarters and the MO there sort of looked, ‘Ah, Mist Expect three times a day for three days. Come again on Friday.’ Well, this Mist Expect was a brown lotion. Yuck. Which was very evil tasting. Anyway, by the Friday morning I more or less managed to crawl up to the sick quarters and they said, ‘Strange. We’ll have you upstairs under observation.’ And that was on the Friday. On the Sunday morning I developed the classic male symptoms of mumps. Now, as soon as they realised this they whipped me off to the local isolation hospital called Tanybwlch where I was the only patient and I distinctly remember it. There were five Nurse Williams’ and one Nurse Prodigan there. I lived like a lord but the interesting thing was that I was there for a week and at the end of the week they said, ‘Right. You’ll be going home Monday. Fourteen days sick leave.’ Now, before the Monday, on the Friday, about twelve of the people who were in my flight at ITW reported in to Tanybwlch with mumps. And what they were going to do to me was nobody’s business until I mentioned fourteen days sick leave. I was the flavour of the month after that. Anyway, from there, after a week, a few weeks due to bad weather I finished up as Desford Leicester, grading school where I did my twelve hours on Tigers. Selected for further pilot training. The interesting thing was there the instructor that I had was a Sergeant Collinson. He was an ex-bank manager and three weeks after I’d finished and gone to Heaton Park word filtered through that he’d had a pupil who’d frozen on the controls and killed them both. And a nicer bloke you couldn’t have wished for. He was the exact opposite to the American instructor which I had at Grosse Ile. Anyway, as I say, we did this grading school and then from there we went to Heaton Park which of course was the centre from which all aircrew to Canada, America — the USA, South Africa were sent simply because there was no room in the sky to have UT pilots barging about and getting in the way even though the Tigers were painted yellow. But, and as I say from there I volunteered for the Flying Boat course which was rather ill fated. I did get about thirty — thirty five hours solo on Stearman N2S4s which I thought was a beautiful aircraft. It really handled superbly. The sort of one that the wing walkers are using now. Much nicer aircraft to fly then the Tiger. Had twice as much power and on Tiger if you came on the approach five miles an hour too fast you nearly floated across the airfield. You didn’t get down. With the Stearman N2S4 you came in and as soon as you got the right attitude closed the throttle, stick back and it would go down on a three pointer and stick. Much nicer. Also, had brakes which helped you to stop and manoeuvre because with the tiger they had to come out and take your wing tip.
CB: Now where was this? In the states. Where?
RM: This. Grosse Ile, Detroit.
CB: Grosse Ile.
RM: Yes. And the French Grosse Ile. And that was American navy. The only British officers that we had there were one RAF and one Royal Navy officer acting as liaison because of course not only did the RAF send pilots there but of course Fleet Air Arm. And it was the Fleet Air Arm course really. With carrier work and then Flying Boats because they had to be versatile with both but I could never understand why we were subjected to the first part of the course but it was a good thing in actual fact. But I couldn’t see it at the time. Because I couldn’t understand anybody would try landing a Catalina on a Flying Boat. It’s a ridiculous state of affairs to be. Anyway, from there, as I say, I was sent back to Canada. To Windsor, Ontario and had a re-selection board. Was re-selected as a navigator air bomber. The navigators could either be pure navigators, NavBs, NavWs nav wireless or Nav radio and in each case, it depended on the type of aircraft that they would be going on to for their training and radio mostly on fighters for instance. The day and night fighters. The —
CB: Can I just go — can I interrupt? Go back a bit? Why was it that you gave up the flying? The pilot training with the US navy.
RM: Why? I was washed off. Yes. I was washed off the course. They had a field. The main fields. Grosse Ile had several satellite airfields. Much more. And one of these was a square field on the edge of Lake Michigan and in the middle of the field was a hundred foot diameter circle. Now, it gets rather technical here because to explain it I’ve got to be technical. Imagine that there’s a line through the circle with the wind. Wind line. And this wind line when on the afternoon that I was taking my tests was at right angles to the shore of the lake. Now, this field was probably no more than four hundred yards long and the circle would be probably about eight or ninety yards in because you had to, sort of, do a touch down and off again. The afternoon, it was in August, the ambient air temperature was eighty five Fahrenheit. Now, you came down wind parallel to the wind line like a normal left hand circuit. Eight hundred feet. When your wings were opposite the circle you cut the engine and the rest was a glide. Now, you had to glide down across the wind line at between ninety and forty five degrees. Continue the left hand turn and make a right hand turn onto the wind line and in and drop. Because, of course with a lot of aircraft you’ve got no forward, fighter aircraft particularly, no forward vision. So they had to adopt this and they still do I believe. I’m not sure. Now, as soon as on the right hand turn, as soon as I crossed the shoreline I gained about fifty feet. Thermals. I’ve never done any gliding or known anything about it and I didn’t know what a thermal was. So I overshot. The next time. The second run. I came a little bit lower. I still overshot. And we had to get three out of six in the circle. The third shot. I came around and I still touched down just beyond the circle. So I knew that I’d failed but I opened up and ignored the instructor who was sitting by the side of the circle watching. Ignored his signals [laughs] I thought I will bloody well put one in and the fourth one in I actually undershot. But in order to do that my right hand wingtip on the right turn was almost in the water. It was that low. And as I say as soon as I muffed that third one I knew that I’d failed so it didn’t bother me much. Now, one difference between the RAF training aircraft and the American training aircraft was that with the Tiger Moth you had a two way Gosport system so you could talk to the pilot. With the Stearman N2S4s, both army and navy, they had one way Gosport. The pilot could talk to you but you couldn’t talk back. The other fact is that all of the instructors, army and navy instructors on pilot training in the States were usually first generation nationalised Americans. Now, they were not allowed to go to the actual warzones just in case they were spies and nasty types. So, you can imagine that these instructors had quite a bone to pick. You know. They were very bitter about being singled out for this and they took it out on us. Now, on one occasion I’d already upset my instructor. You know, before these circles landing. And if you had a high level emergency which usually occurred at two thousand feet you were supposed to glide round, selecting a field and then make this sort of approach. And we were stooging along on one exercise just before these circles and he suddenly cut the motor and said, ‘Right. High level emergency.’ And one of the satellite fields was just down there so, I gave it full left stick, full right rudder, organised a side slip and brought it right down in one go in to this field. Settled and did a three pointer. And I sat there and I thought bloody marvellous Maywood. The remarks that came over the Gosport were not printable. Definitely not printable. I had disobeyed every rule in their book. Disobeyed them. I was worthless. I was useless. He didn’t speak to me for a couple of days afterwards. He just took me up. But on the way back after the side slip he cut the visit short because we flew for an hour and a half at a time. We’d been flying for about a half an hour. He said, ‘Right. We’re going back to base.’ And he did flick rolls left right left right and obviously to try and upset me. And they had a mirror up in the centre section where they could see us and as he did these, the more he did it, you know, sort of thumbs-up which made him even worse. As I say for two days he would just take me out to the aircraft. We’d do what we had to do until this circle business and not a word was said. Now, after washing off this course, as I say, we had a re-selection board in Windsor, Ontario. It’s just across the water from Detroit and I was selected as a NavB. I had to do six months general duties work. Three months in Toronto manning depot. That was quite an interesting, mostly sweeping the floor but on one occasion. Two occasions. Two successive days. We had to, you know, two of us, another washed off pilot and myself chummed up and we were picked for guard duty in the detention barracks there. When we reported to the flight sergeant MP first thing in the morning we were handed side arms. 45 revolvers. And the SP said, ‘Now, the only thing I’m going to tell you,’ he said, ‘Is never ever let one of the prisoners get within shovel distance of you.’ Shovel distance. What’s that? He said, ‘Remember that.’ He said. ‘If they look like getting there,’ he said, ‘Shoot them because it might be the last thing you do.’ He said, ‘We won’t ask questions.’ Anyway, we went into this detention barracks and we were ushered in to a building which was about thirty feet wide. Probably ninety feet long and normal height of a shed. Say perhaps ten, twelve feet. Across the centre of the room there was a black line. Two inch black line that ran down the walls, across the floor and up the other wall. Now, you can imagine. You walk in there and you see this. At one end there was probably about fifty, sixty tonnes of small coal. The other end absolutely pristine walls and floor. Whitewashed. The prisoners had wheelbarrows and shovels and it was their job to shift this coal from one end to the other and then when they’d done that they scrubbed the floor and the walls. Whitewashed them. And then did the job again. Now, they were doing this probably for two or three months and they were, it was described as being stir happy. And this was the reason. They’d had one or two of the guards had been attacked with these shovels and had been seriously injured or killed and that was the reason why we were told. Now, we only had that for two days fortunately because we more or less stood back to back [laughs] watching each other’s backs and then back to the old sweeping routine. And that was for three months. Then from there I was sent out to a place called Goderich which is right on the borders. Western border of Ontario. That was a training station for twin-engined aircraft for Royal Canadian Air Force cadets. Spent three months there and then onto a place called Mountain View in Ontario to do the bombing and gunnery school. The flying was done on Mark 2 Ansons. You’ve probably seen pictures of those. And the gunnery was done with the Bollingbroke which was the Canadian version of the Blenheim 4. The turret. Have you ever seen the Blenheim gun turret?
Other: No.
RM: Most peculiar arrangement. Vertical column. And a beam pivoted on this vertical column. At one end of the beam is a seat. At the other end are two Browning pop guns. 303s. And handlebars. So when you — to operate the turret to elevate the guns or depress them you turn the handlebars like twist grips. And to turn the turret you steer it like a pushbike. So, if you were firing at aircraft up there your bottom was right down here and you’re looking up there. You’re not sitting in the chair and looking all over like did with the Fraser Nash and the other turrets. The locking ones. Anyway, we were quite interested because the first exercise that we did it was really a chastener. We had two hundred rounds each to fire. Now, what they did with the two Brownings — they put three hundred pounds in each with a dummy round of two hundred in each gun. So, the first person in to the turret, you flew in threes, first used the left hand gun. Two hundred rounds. Left it. The next person going in two hundred rounds from the right hand gun. And then the third one cleared both guns and a hundred from each. Now, the actual bullets — the tips were dipped in paint. So that when they went through the drogue, which was the target, you could see from the colour as to who hit and how many. The drogue was roughly in size a bit bigger say than the fuselage of a Hurricane or a Spit so you can see it was quite large. The first exercise was what was known as a beam target where the towing aircraft had towed the drogue on your beam two hundred yards distance. Steady. In other words you were firing at a static object. No lead necessary either way. And of course we just blazed away with these in short bursts and when we got down after the first exercise. This exercise. They gave us the number of hits. Now, believe it or believe it not at two hundred yards, steady target, no more than probably being on the gun boats — an extraordinarily good result was five percent hits. The average? Three percent. Which is amazing isn’t it? The reason? Vibration. The rigidity of the gun mountings of course allowed the guns to spray and this is one of the things where modern films and pre-modern films of aircraft fights where you see a nice line of holes being stitched across the fuselage — absolute bullshit. You were lucky if you get it off, peppered them. That was the gunnery and then we did sort of quarter cross overs and all that sort of thing. Mostly then with cameras attached to the guns. They took Cinefilms. They wouldn’t let us use live ammunition against [laughs] their aircraft. The bombing was done with Mark 2 Ansons. A very slow aircraft. And using the old fashioned Mark 9 bomb sight which was quite a Heath Robinson contraption really but it worked after a fashion. But it was designed to operate when aircraft were sort of doing their bombing runs at probably a hundred and twenty, a hundred and fifty miles an hour with very little relationship to the forthcoming four-engined aircraft. And for that reason they devised the Mark 14 bomb sight which was gyroscope labourised and it was a beautiful piece of work. But going back to what I was saying about the weather, aircraft and wind finding. With the Mark 14 bomb sight you had to put the wind velocity in. Feed it in manually. And the only other manual thing you did was fit the bomb type. Select the bomb type and it worked out the trajectory and everything. Not only that but with the plate glass, sight glass, you had the red cross with the sword and that was stabilised horizontally. So that it would, in actual fact, give you accurate bombing up to about ten degrees of bank. Whereas with a Mark 9 you couldn’t. You had to be absolutely spot on and running the thing accurately.
CB: Straight and level.
RM: Straight and level. Yes. So that was an advantage with it. And that was bombing and gunnery school. Then nav school, as I say, was at Charlottetown, PEI. Prince Edward Island. And it was there I had my first really narrow squeak. In training of all things. Now, the nav school at that time lasted for twenty weeks. At the end of ten weeks you got a seventy two hour pass. From the Friday night to the Sunday which you couldn’t do much about because by the time you got from Charlottetown on to the mainland it was time to come back again. Right out in the sticks there. You were in the boon docks. Anyway, because we had bad night flying weather in the first eight weeks of our course they decided that instead of us flying on the tenth week we would fly on our twelfth week and the next course — 97. Behind us. Two weeks behind us would fly in our place. Now, you can appreciate this obviously. We were, a group of us, were going into the local cinema and it was just getting dark. Nice bright moon. No wind. Not worth talking about. Beautiful night. When we came out of the cinema three hours later there was a forty five knot gale blowing. Now, I can visualise what I understood and if I was in the same position I might have made the same mistake. In fact, almost certainly would but the Met forecast for the whole of their four hours was light and variable winds. Now, a sprog navigator. They’d only done ten weeks. They were only half way through the course. You still, over there, only had radio bearings. Visual sightings. More or less. And astro compass. The old bubble sextant which I could never get on with to navigate with. And the first leg out probably — of course you see navigation in those, steam navigation the vital part was wind finding, direction of the wind because that meant that you would get to where you wanted to go to. Probably find wind— sort of ten knots. Well, that falls within the flight plan. Get on the next leg and then you suddenly find wind fifteen, twenty knots. Must be something wrong so you backtrack. Check all your doings and in the meantime still maintaining the same course. And eventually you think well the only thing to do is to go back to ten knots. So, you re-plot for ten knots. Come to the next turning point as you thought, make your turn and say ,with four legs ultimately, you’ll probably be getting, or getting readings of thirty knots, thirty five knots. Can’t be right. Must go back to flight plan. And at the end of the flight when you should have been back at Charlottetown if you’d sort of ignored the truth you were probably fifty, sixty nautical miles northeast of Charlottetown. Right over the main Gulf of St Lawrence. Well as I say when we came out of the cinema there was this forty five knot wind blowing. When we got back to the camp they said, ‘Course 96 report to briefing room first light.’ And they made sure that we were there at first light because they sent people around to get us up. And we were given a very quick course on how to conduct line square searches. And every available aircraft and staff pilot who were available flew us so that we did these searches over the Gulf looking for missing aircraft. Never did see any. I believe that just after we’d finished the course. Twenty weeks. And being on our way back that they found one empty dinghy out there. And I believe that in actual fact they found the wreckage of one on the coast of Labrador which is just across the other side. How many went missing we were never told. But I did find out from the archives of the Empire Air Training Scheme in Brandon near Winnipeg — that I think three crews were absolutely lost. But anyway, we measured that and as I say we came back to this country. We did, before they would turn us lose on anything, they said, ‘Right you’ve got your navigation brevets in Canada. From Charlottetown. Over the Maritimes. Where one road or one railway is a land mark. Now, you may find flying over Britain and the continent a bit different. So, before you do anything we’re going to give you three weeks intensive training on map reading.’ And we were actually posted to a lovely little station just outside Carlisle. I think it was called Longton, where we were piled in the back seats of Tiger Moths. They only had about eight of these Tigers with staff pilots there. So, as I say it was quite a small grass field and we did quite a lot of map reading and target spotting over the Midlands and the Lake District. And that was good fun actually. On one occasion we, I actually flew with a pilot. One of the staff pilots who was a little more daring than others and it was a very windy day and he said, ‘I fancy doing a trip. Do you want to come?’ So I said, ‘Yes.’ So, we took off and we were plotting our way around and the biggest rift that I calculated on that was fifty four degrees. And when we came over the airfield boundary at three hundred feet we actually landed ten feet inside the fence because the wind speed was virtually the approach speed of the Tiger. Yeah. That was quite interesting that was. Anyway, from there we went to AFU, Advanced Flying Unit and that was at Wigtown in Scotland. Halfway between Dumfries and Stranraer and that was on Ansons. Again, that was just generally getting used to flying over Britain. And then from AFU of course, straight on to OTU at Upper Heyford where we flew in Oxfords and we, more or less, we were [pause] our technique with Gee was a Gee fix every three minutes. DR after six. Six minutes. New course and again every three minutes. Every three minutes. And this was anything up to four hours. Which of course is the sort of navigation that we would be doing with the Mossies at night. And we also, we weren’t introduced to Loran until OTU and the snag there you see was the Gee would only be useful up to the Continent’s coast line. After that there was so much interference by the Germans. So much, what we called grass, that you couldn’t pick out the signal so we had to use LORAN which, curiously enough, they never did jam. It worked quite well and it worked out well over the Atlantic. Coastal command used it quite considerably. And as I say the last OTU trip we demolished a Mossie by going through the hedge and into trees on the way back with a single engine landing. Then, as I say, I’d only just started a tour before VE Day came. Just after VE Day the first thing we did were Cook’s Tours. We had two Mosquitos from each of the stations. 8 Group stations. Took off at one hour intervals during the day so that there was a route which went across northern Germany, the Ruhr valley then out more or less through the Danish border and back to home. And this was ostensibly to give us a picture of the damage which Bomber Command had done but if you bear in mind that these flights were every hour through daylight I reckon that the idea was a standing patrol just to tell the Germans we were still about. Now, at the risk of boring you here we were told that these Cook’s Tours would be a thousand feet. That’s a thousand feet above ground level obviously but George sort of took it upon himself to fly at a thousand feet. Now, the Ruhr valley is above sea level. About three hundred feet if I remember rightly. So, we were probably about seven hundred feet. Now, as I say the place was absolute rubble with steel structures. Just odd bits sticking up. Odd bits of concrete. Just like Hiroshima. And the Germans had bulldozed roads through this rubble so that they could get their troops. We were stooging along one of these roads. Sort of just ambling along at about a hundred and ninety knots. And we could see in the distance a chap ambling along with his stick and he heard us and he turned around. He recognised what we were and shook his stick at us. So, George said, ‘I’ll teach him a lesson.’ So, he sort of pulled up into a stalled turn and as he did he opened the bomb doors. Now on the B16 the bomb doors are big. Four thousand pound bomb size and from the front you can’t miss them. And this chappy, you could see, he sort of looked. Up went the stick and he was legging it down the road like mad, much to our amusement. Yeah. When it comes to low level flying though as I say our height was fifteen, twenty five feet. Clipping the grass almost. And on one occasion we were going across Wales, went down the valley and then up the other side. Big wide valley. Half way up this valley was a farmhouse and we were climbing up the slope and there was a woman pegging washing out. She obviously heard us and we could see her looking. Saw we were there and then she decided to look down and she could see us coming up and she legged it through this farmhouse. We could see her. And she ran out the other side as went over the top. Again, in those days our sense of humour was different to what it is now and as you probably [unclear] it was quite interesting. But fortunately for us — just after this 608 Squadron, the one we were on, was disbanded and we were posted to another 8 Group unit. 692 Squadron at Gransden Lodge which is just to the west of Cambridge and we, in actual fact, did one or two trips there and 692 was disbanded which meant that we were redundant aircrew. So we were sent first of all up to Blyton in Lincolnshire for re-selection board and I eventually finished up, although I’d opted for something different, on a flight mechanic engines course at Hereford. Credenhill. But there I learned all of the intricacies of the Merlin and the Pratt and Whitney Twin Wasp engine. And having finished that course I was posted to 254 torpedo Beaufighter Squadron at Langham in Norfolk. Langham, now, I believe is famous for its glass factory there which I think is on the old airfield where I became the flight tractor driver. And that’s what I stayed until I was demobbed. Now, they [pause] I could have opted to sign on with the air force. Not necessarily guaranteeing that I would fly as a navigator again but there was a pretty good chance. But in those days you had to do twenty one years for a pension which would have taken me from the age of nineteen when I joined up to forty. But you were too old to fly at thirty two. Now, as you probably appreciate after being grounded you don’t know what sort of job you’re going to get. General dogsbody usually. And the thought of eight years as dogsbody to get a pension didn’t appeal to me so I came out and I eventually finished up at teacher training college where I spent five years with a secondary mod trying to teach maths and science. And at the end of five years — because in the period between school and joining the air force I’d become an electrical trainee at the local power station so I’d got quite a good working knowledge of turbines, pumps and all that. Generators and so on. A good mechanical background. I managed to get a job as a lecturer in mechanical engineering at the local technical college on a one term temporary contract in 1954 and I was like old Bill in World War One. Unless you can find a better hole there’s no point in moving. And I eventually spent twenty eight years there and retired. Well, took voluntary redundancy in ‘82. And I’ve been a pensioner ever since. I think the Ministry of Education are busy making little plasticine models of me and sticking pins in because I’m quite expensive. Yeah. But that is that sad story of my life.
CB: Fascinating. Thank you very much. I suggest we have a break now.
RM: Yes.
CB: So, I’ll turn off.
[recording paused]
CB: So. Ken. We’ve just talked about Ken O’Dell being at Edith Weston near North Luffenham because he was also trained in America.
RM: Yeah. Now, if he was trained in America he wouldn’t necessarily be going to Grosse Ile because –
CB: He didn’t. No.
RM: He went under what was known as the Arnold Scheme and that would be usually around about Texas or somewhere like that. To one of the flying schools there with the American army and he would become an army pilot. Now, of course there would be some relevance there because the first part of their course would be for fighter aircraft. Fighter training. Single seat fighters. And this is probably where he went.
CB: Yes.
RM: Under the Arnold Scheme.
CB: His instructors were civilians.
RM: Yes. Yeah. And that did apply but not with the navy. The navy were all genuine navy types. For example, the chief petty officer who took charge of all the morning parades and what not — he had been in the American navy for eighteen years and he’d never seen the sea. Mind you, the Great Lakes, when it does get rough you do get thirty foot waves on it so it’s as good as the sea. And we can prove that because a group of us Fleet Air Arm and RAF types we hired one of these paddle steamers one Saturday night to go out on the lakes. You know, for an outing. This chief petty officer came with us. Now, admittedly it was a bit choppy but he spent all evening draped over the rail. Much to our delight. Much to our delight. Yes. Yes, he was not popular. The Americans for instance. The American navy have a very queer discipline which didn’t go with us. Very rigid. Whereas with the RAF you get a certain amount of latitude and humour. But not the Americans and for any minor misdemeanour the sort of punishment you got you went before the mast, you see and you were awarded this punishment. And that was known as square eating. Have you ever come across it?
Other: No.
RM: Ever heard of it?
Other: No.
CB: Never.
RM: Right. Now, at mealtimes because you were condemned to this you had to do a square eating. In other words [pause] that. That was square eating.
CB: So, lifting it up vertically and then pulling it, eating it horizontally.
RM: Yes. Horizontally. To eat.
CB: Into your mouth. With both knife and fork.
RM: Yes. Oh no. Usually with the fork because the Americans of course chop up their stuff.
CB: Of course. Yes.
RM: With a fork even. But if you did use the knife.
CB: Yeah.
RM: It had to be like. Now can you imagine anything more stupid? And that was the sort of typical sort of thing that you got. But the Americans, bless them, they weathered it so — good luck.
CB: Tell us about the accommodation. What did that they have?
RM: Oh, the accommodation was superb. These twin, these blocks that you see in the films. Two story blocks. Everything beautifully polished. Wood floors. The interesting thing is they had showers there and toilets. You had a single bed which was made up every morning. You know. Bullshit. And the interesting thing was the actual loos. Now, the loos were just like ordinary loos except there were no partitions [laughs] yeah. And we thought that strange. But they say you can get used to anything and it is so. Yeah.
CB: How many people? Were they, were you in dormitories?
RM: It was a dormitory. Yes. It would be about twenty — probably twenty four people. Twenty four cadets. Two sides. Twelves. Just like the dormitories you see on the films. The wartime films of the Americans. The American army of course were a bit more spartan than the navy. But everything was nice. The food though was good. Rather like the curate’s egg though. Good in parts. And you had very strange things like plum jelly with chopped celery in it and that would be a vegetable. Things like that. It was ingenious. Let’s put it that way. As I say, the discipline was very very good. If you heard the trumpet sound for the flag being lowered at the end of the day wherever you were and whatever you were doing you had to stand to attention, face the flag and salute whilst the trumpet blew. We did, in fact, there was one big navy battle that was conducted whilst I was there and I can’t for the life of me think what it was. I think it was Leyte Gulf but I’m not sure. On this particular occasion all flying stopped on this day. We were all assembled in one of the big hangars. All RAF. And five hundred of us all together. Fleet Air Arm types. All the officers there. The band. And the flags and banners and what not and we were given a very very stirring speech by the commanding officer on how good the American navy was and how brave they were and what a victory this had been. All this, that and the other. If you’d listened carefully at the back particularly with Royal Navy types, Fleet Air Arm types a series of raspberries. Yeah. Then having gone through all this marshall music we were all marched out again and continued. I remember that quite clearly.
CB: What time did you get up in the morning?
RM: Usually around about half six.
CB: And breakfast?
RM: Breakfast. Yes. You wandered over to the mess. That was one thing you didn’t parade for. You only paraded after breakfast. You know.
CB: Yeah. And what time did you go to breakfast?
RM: Usually around about half seven.
CB: And then you went for your parade. What time?
RM: About quarter past eight or so. From there disbursed to the actual flying field which — now this was quite interesting in actual fact. The main airfield at Grosse Ile didn’t have runways but it did have a huge circular patch of concrete about six hundred yards diameter so that you could land in any direction and you could land two or three aircraft side by side. Now, that was clear. All you had was hangars in the distance. And then beyond the hangars there was one vertical radio mast which was clearly visible. Now, that radio mast subtended a fraction of one degree from the field. So, you think nobody’s going to hit it. Wrong. Just before we got there some character flying solo. Chop. And the mast came down and hit the, fortunately the American seamen’s mess not the British mess and did grievous bodily damage to several of them. But nobody shed a tear from the British contingent for that. As you can gather I’m not terribly impressed with the Americans.
CB: Were the Americans training their people in similar numbers to yours or what was the situation?
RM: I don’t know what the navy situation was because this was the American navy base. And it was only RAF and Royal Navy.
CB: Oh was it? Training.
RM: Training.
CB: Right.
RM: Yeah. So, they must have had other bases. Probably in California and on the coast and so on. But we didn’t know anything about those and didn’t want to know anything about those.
CB: No. Tell us a bit more about these people who were first generation Americans. What sort of people were they and what was their attitude to the war?
RM: The one. My instructor and I only came across him really was a chappy who was a naturalised Dutchman with the rather curious name of Nieswander. Not spelt exactly as we’d pronounce it. N I E S W A N D E R. Now, he was, as a say, a naturalised Dutchman. First generation. And about six feet two, physique rather like a beanpole and of course like all of these other characters he had a chip on his shoulder. He wanted to be a fighter pilot. He was going to be a fighter pilot. Bugger this job sort of business. And he was, I suppose, fairly interested in teaching people to fly but you could sense and even it was expressed sort of rather obliquely to you by him that he wanted to go into the war zone but he was not allowed to.
CB: No.
RM: All of the pilots and this, of course, I think this also applied to the army pilots that they were not allowed to go into the warzone so they could either go on to training but curiously enough — transport. Cargo and all that sort of thing. And some of these cargo flights actually took them into the war zone. But they weren’t equipped with guns and what not so they couldn’t fight. Yeah.
CB: And what ranks were these people who were your instructors?
RM: Oh, practically all lieutenants. Junior grade.
CB: Right.
RM: Which would be equivalent to our POs. Pilot officers. Now, the interesting thing was there that in the RAF of course with commissioned and non-commissioned ranks you got upgrading in rank at given periods of time with aircrew and what not. Not so with the Americans. And I daresay that I was there, what, 1943. I daresay that in 1945 when the war finished he would still be a lieutenant. General. GJ. Lieutenant junior grade.
CB: And what rank were you at that time? An LAC were you?
RM: An LAC yes. Got, oh — Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, where I got y brevet. The Wings Parade there. Now that was in July. And we were all drawn up. We’d finished our training satisfactorily and I was assigned the rank of sergeant. We did get about three or four commissions straight away but mostly sergeant rank. And we were drawn up 2.30 in the afternoon on the parade ground there at Charlottetown and we were addressed by the Governor General of Prince Edward Island after we’d been given our brevets. And this gentleman to us, at that time, we estimated his age at eighty. He was old anyway. He was quite short and apparently, he was deaf. His aide de camp was an army type, lieutenant, who stood about six feet two and this Governor General was making a speech which lasted in total about fifteen minutes. And in the speech, he congratulated us on being — becoming pilots with the Royal Air Force. Went on in this vein and his aide de camp, his aid, was nudging him. Almost to tell him. You know, we could see it happening but he ploughed on and at the end of it the aide de camp had a real chat with him. Now we were standing to attention. Blazing sun.
CB: July. Yes.
RM: And by this time our tunics were turning black with perspiration. And what does the silly old bugger do? Once he’d been told that we were navigators he went through exactly the same speech and substituted the word navigators.
CB: Yes.
RM: Now, if any of us had had a gun we’d have shot him. Without any doubt. He was definitely not the flavour of the month. I had, I have never ever been so hot because of course the Canadians had the lightweight summer gear. Khaki. Like the Americans. What did we have? Blue serge. We never had any and those blue serge uniforms were quite warm. Yeah. We could have shot him quite cheerfully.
CB: Yeah.
RM: But –
CB: Now the Canadians. Excuse me. I’m going to stop a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: So, let’s just talk about the Canadians.
RM: The Canadians except for the French Canadians in Quebec were charming people. Now, as far as the Americans are concerned — individually very charming. We had individual hospitality through their USOs where you go and have a weekend with a family and so on. Superb hospitality. But when you get them in a group you’re on a different planet. Terry Thomas had the best description of a group of Americans. Remember his –?
Other: No. I remember him but not –
RM: Described an absolute shower. Yeah. And we found that afterwards actually when my first wife and I went across to the Continent in the early 60s. On the ferry we bumped into a bunch of Americans. Loud mouthed. Uncouth. But if you separated them they were quite charming to talk to. Now, the Canadians — much more reserved but just as genuine and I made quite a few friends there except at Charlottetown. Which — there’s a joke about Charlottetown actually which was very true at that time and the joke goes like — that in summer they raise potatoes and in winter children. Now, they still had prohibition there when we were there. That would be in late ’43, early ‘44. And apparently, prohibition stopped only perhaps twenty years ago so consequently the local inhabitants made their own alcoholic drinks by filtering off brasso and stuff like that or using rubbing alcohol. And the weekend before we got there. Two of the erks off the station because there were RAF aircrew there had purloined from the stores a quart of glycol, mixed it with orange juice and two of the local popsies and these two had a beano at the weekend. On the Monday morning the two popsies were dead, one of the erks was in sick quarters blind and the other one was rather non compos mentis. And both of them by the time we got there at the next weekend were on the boat home to Britain. That’s the sort of thing they got up to. As far as I can remember with Charlottetown you had large numbers of children who did the same sort of thing as a lot of the children you see where troops are concerned, and where the Americans are concerned. You know. Chocolates. They wanted chocolates and sweets or whatever and I was not impressed. Nothing would tempt me to go back there again even though it has changed apparently. The Maritimes, the western provinces, New Brunswick and so on — very sparsely populated and very uninterested. The only thing with them is trees, more trees and even more trees with roads, odd roads going through. Nah.
CB: Now when you were flying in Canada —
RM: Yeah.
CB: Were the instructors all Canadians? Were they British? What were they?
RM: A lot of them were RAF seconded over there. What happened, say take twin engine aircraft. You get the RAF sent over there — say to Estevan. He would do his course. The few people at the top of the course, the really high flyers would be retained.
CB: The creamies.
RM: As instructors and would do a full tour. Now, this has a bearing actually on George, my pilot and 8 Group. Now, all 8 Group Mossie pilots had to have at least a thousand hours on twin engines and the twin engines were mostly of course Oxfords which handled apparently rather like a Mossie. Either that or they were tour expired Lancasters. But you didn’t get anybody who just got his wings becoming a Mosquito pilot. Now that was just 8 Group. I don’t know what happened with 5 Group or 2 Group which were the other two groups that I remember being a part of Bomber Command. And it worked. It worked quite well. There were Canadian instructors obviously. RCAF. That is, if they hadn’t been posted to Britain which they were. I mean, they were coming over. When it comes to going over to Canada and the States I travelled on the Queen Elizabeth and it was like a mill pond and of course the Lizzie and the Mary were run by the Americans. They were handed over to the Americans and based at New York. And typically from New York they would come across to Glasgow — Greenock, with a division of American troops. Eighteen to twenty thousand troops on. They would unload them. They would then load returning Americans or returning Canadians and all RAF aircrew that were going for training. Royal Navy and so on. Roughly about five thousand at a time. And they would go to Halifax. At Halifax they would discharge and pick up a Canadian division. Bring those back and then you’d have aircrew that were going to the United States on the Arnold Scheme and people like that. Returning Americans going back to New York. And that’s how they did it. Now, going over there the actual mess deck had tables for twelve diners. Twelve people. And the cooks cooked in batches of twelve and you had, each day, one person went from the table to the mess. The cooks collected a tray say, of twelve steaks. Twelve chops. Now, when I say steaks — American steaks. Not British steaks which were postage stamp sized. But these were genuine. Genuine pork chops. Sausages. Those twelve helpings came to the table. Now, we got on to the QE in Greenock at midnight. The engines were running. There was a bit of vibration there. We sailed on the first tide which was about 6 o’clock in the morning. Just breaking day. We had to go to breakfast around about 7.30 again. And of course, we collected this tray. There were only four of us on the table. The other, sorry, six of us on the table. The other six were in their bunks seasick and we hadn’t even hit the Atlantic. Anyway, we got out onto the Atlantic and it was like a mill pond. There were six the first day, six missing the second day, four missing the third day. And we ate like lords. You know, God, we thought, you know, this is marvellous. We really ate. And these steaks and that were beautiful. Couldn’t grumble at that. And on the last morning they did manage to come down for breakfast before we disembarked. But one interesting thing. Each of us was given a job. The job that I was given was to go from the main stores with one of the American seamen to actually re-store or re-stock the canteens. Chocolate and so on. Which was quite a — not a very onerous job. Over and done with in an hour and that was it. But this American seaman I was with he said, ‘Have you got any currency you want changing?’ So I said, ‘Well, you’re not allowed to bring any currency out. Only ten pounds.’ He said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘Supposing you got a bit more than that?’ He said, ‘Would you like it changed?’ He said. So I said, ‘Changed to what?’ He said, ‘Dollars. American.’ Now in 1939 the pound was worth four dollars American and four forty dollars.
CB: Canadian.
RM: To the Canadian. So you had this ten percent difference. So, I said, ‘Well, what’s your exchange rate?’ He said, ‘Well. For you it’ll be four dollars to the pound.’ So I said, ‘Well, it so happens,’ I said, ‘I’ve been a bit naughty. I’ve brought an extra tenner out. Twenty. I got twenty pounds changed into American dollars which, interestingly of course if you spent them in Canada which they were spendable — for ten dollars you’d pay the American ten dollars and get a dollar change. So, it worked out quite well. But the — I was talking to this seaman and I said, ‘We seem to be going at a fair old lick.’ I said, ‘What’s it doing?’ He said, ‘Well, I shouldn’t tell you.’ He said, ‘It’s more than my job’s worth.’ So, I said, ‘Go on. Nobody’s listening.’ He said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘We’re cruising at twenty nine knots.’ But one night I woke up. It was only about 2 o’clock in the morning and the boat, you could tell from the vibration that they’d definitely sort of upped the steam but when we went to breakfast we were back to the twenty nine knots. So, I said to this chap, I said, ‘What happened last night?’ ‘Nothing very much,’ he said. So I said, ‘Go on,’ ‘You’re pulling my leg,’ I said, ‘You were going a lot faster.’ I said, ‘What speed were you doing?’ He said, ‘Thirty four knots,’ he said, ‘There was a sub scare.’ Now, of course the two Queens were unescorted but imagine this. A six inch gun fore and aft on the bow and the stern. On the main deck — Bofors and three inch guns. On the deck above you had Oerlikon cannons.
CB: Twenty millimetre.
RM: Yeah. Twenty millimetre. And on the roof you actually had two rocket launchers. So, as far as aircraft were concerned which of course would be the main thing they would have given them a very rough time. And on the second day they tried the guns out, you know, just to make sure they were working. And they did them one side and then the other. A big rocket flare went up, parachute flare, and they all opened up on this and it was quite deafening. Except the big six inch guns. They didn’t. But everything else —
CB: How many days did it take to get over?
RM: Four days and eight hours. As I say we lived like lords. Coming back. We came back on one of the old Empress boats. It was the Empress of Japan but it had been re-named the Empress of Scotland for obviously patriotic reasons. That took six days and a half. And on that they only had two meals a day. Not three. Now, you can believe this or believe it not. Going out the canteen had run dry so there was nothing on the way back. The first morning, I forget exactly which way around it was but this was the sort of thing. We had smoked haddock for breakfast. The evening meal — wiener sausages. Then for a change wiener sausages for breakfast. Smoked haddock. And we had that for six days. There was no sweets. No fruit available. And we were not in a happy mood. And then when we got into Liverpool Bay the boat had to anchor there for twelve hours before we could dock. And we could see the shoreline. People moving about. There would be restaurants there. And there we were. Stuck. We were not a happy crew. Funnily enough when we came back we had a full customs inspection. And you were allowed two hundred cigarettes, a bottle of Scotch say, or a spirit and a bottle of wine. The chappy in front of me, customs bloke ‘cause we were all queuing up, customs said to the chap. ‘Any cigarettes?’ Expecting two hundreds. The chappy in front said, ‘Six hundred.’ The customs officer looked at him and he said, ‘Surely you mean two hundred?’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘I’ve got six hundred.’ ‘Oh. Well, that’ll bloody well cost you then.’ [laughs] I mean how thick can you get? Dear. Oh, it was. I must say that in spite of our, got one, two or three near squeaks I can look back on my war service and it’s quite interesting. Very varied. And I met some jolly nice people.
CB: How many of those did you keep in contact with after the war?
RM: I kept in contact with my pilot up to a time and then I lost contact with him. The chappy that I was at the Toronto manning depot with we split up but I traced him afterwards. After we’d become civilians. And found out that he’d actually joined the Toronto Metropolitan Police. Been with them for ten years and then he’d left there and joined the Pinkertons.
CB: Right. In America.
RM: Now, I always thought that the Pinkertons was a mythical organisation and I was put severely in my place when Gordon — eventually I went over there in ‘86 and stayed with him and his wife. When I said that I thought it was mythical he said, ‘We’re international,’ he said, ‘We’re interested, more or less in industrial espionage and things like that,’ he said. ‘We’re not interested in police work.’ So, I was really put in my place there. Yeah. And my pilot. He died. Had a heart attack around about 1982 if I remember rightly going on a fishing trip from Vancouver to Nanaimo. Vancouver Island. And he died on the ferry. Had a heart attack.
CB: Was he a Canadian?
RM: No. He was a Londoner. But he had gone across to the States — to Canada. Done his pilot training, become an instructor at Estevan and while he was there he met his wife who was the daughter of a newspaper owner in Langley which is just outside Vancouver. And of course as soon as he was demobbed he shot off to Canada because he got free passage there. Free ticket back home. Yeah.
CB: I’ll stop there for a bit. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: Right. We’re now re-starting after a short break and we’re with Dick Maywood and talking now about LMF.
RM: LMF. Lack of moral fibre which was a euphemistic way of referring to cowardice. It was not unknown with, particularly Bomber Command crews that some of them lost their nerve. In fact it’s a wonder that they didn’t all lost their nerves on heavies. Anyway, if they were accused and if they did succumb to lack of moral fibre they more or less had a courts martial and were almost certainly stripped of all rank.
CB: Physically.
RM: Yes. And –
CB: In front of — sorry go on –
RM: They were also treated to so many months in the Glasshouse which was at Sheffield. And everybody knew. All their crew knew of Sheffield and what it entailed. And fortunately, from my point of view I mean flying in the Mossie was safe. I mean not like the heavies. Because the chop rate even in 1944/45 on heavies was still quite considerable. But on Mossies I think it worked out, on 8 Group Mossies something like about half a percent. But one thing that did strike me with that ‘casue in the Mossie, being wood, low thermal conductivity. Radiators between the engines and the fuselage on both sides with air bleeds. Sealed cockpits. We flew in battle dress. No gloves. But we did have the escape boots just in case we had to escape. That was it. And we had our own sidearms. In my case a .38 revolver and it was only about three years ago it that it suddenly dawned on me. Twenty five thousand feet. If we had been hit and had had to bale out we would have been dead. Lack of oxygen and cold because, I mean, the outside air temperature was around about minus sixty. Minus seventy. And apparently about thirty six seconds of that and its good night nurse. It was a good job we didn’t think about that otherwise we might have gone LMF. But no, I have the utmost sympathy because one or two of my friends I know have had a very sticky patch. One I was with yesterday he is ex-Bomber Command Lanc and he was telling a friend that on one occasion they had a twenty millimetre shell, or, no, it couldn’t have been twenty millimetre. It must have been bigger than that. Go in to the Lanc and lodge in the ironmongery and not explode. And Dennis said that they sort of fished this thing out and dropped it out. And the chap who was talking to him and said, yeah, ‘Didn’t it explode then?’ And Dennis said words to the effect, ‘You’re rather stupid. If it had exploded I wouldn’t be here.’ How silly can people get? It’s, but it’s surprising really. When it comes to the old Mossie they talk about the wooden wonder. They’ve heard of the wooded wonder vaguely. No idea what it did really. Couldn’t be very interesting because it’s made of wood. And when you consider it was the first RAF multi role combat aircraft. You had your weather versions. You had the oboe versions. You had the PR Unit versions. Night fighter units. You had the Coastal Command Banff Wing which for a time had those Tsetse Mosquitoes with the 57 millimetre gun and I know one or two of the 247 Squadron even now who flew in those. And one in particular and he said that every time one of those guns went off you lost twenty knots airspeed with the recoil. But they didn’t last long because they found that a battery of eight rockets, sixty pound rockets was a better bet than the Tsetse gun. That was known as the Banff wing. There was 235 and 247 Squadrons in the Banff Wing. Anti-shipping. You had second TAF who flew fighter bombers. That’s guns, cannons and two bombs in each and that would probably be either on interdiction, road transport, railways and what not. You had the night intruders. Now, had the war had gone on longer it would have satisfied my sense of humour to get on night intruders. Because I loved the idea of sort of just dropping an odd bomb on the runway as they were about to land or shooting the buggers down. Pardon my broken English. Shooting them down. It would have appealed to my sense of humour but no. No. But there we are.
CB: So, you talked about flying at very low level.
RM: Yes.
CB: Tell to us a little more about that. I mean we’re talking about being low indeed.
RM: Yeah.
CB: However you look at it. And what about the excitement and the danger? Or the other way around.
RM: Well excitement. Yes. Particularly when we were doing low level bombing because I’d be prone in the bomb bay looking out the window. The Mark 14 bomb sight was useless because it was a high level job. And they hadn’t got a low level bombsight so it was all done with Mark 1 eyeballs. Now we had a bombing range out at Whittlesea. Well, just the other side of Whittlesea. And flying PPL I often had a scout around there to find out where the field was and I couldn’t find it but this was a big square field with the target in the centre. Now, literally to go we were flying over trees and down again. That was, we were sort of doing. The reason for it was quite simple. We were told the lower — you were going out to the Far East. A lot of jungle. Clearings. The lower you fly the less time you’ll be a target for ground gunners. So, the closer you can get to the treetops and the ground the safer you’ll be. And as I say, fortunately George was extremely good at low flying. Quite interesting actually. If we were bombing on east west run we’d come in low level and then at the end of the run we’d do a slow climb up to about fifteen hundred feet and then do a turn, reciprocal, back down to height again and bomb in the reverse direction and when we were on that run. On the east west run. Our turn to go reciprocal was always over Peterborough Town Bridge. It was super you know. Sort of down there. Yes. Home.
CB: Now, what about navigating when you’re — because your vista is very restricted when you’re flying low. So how did you deal with the navigation in that context?
RM: That was extremely difficult because as you say your range of vision is restricted so you have to absolutely do the correct thing. You look out and you see on the map where you are. The common mistake with map reading is to look at the map and say, ‘Oh that must be it,’ Because as you are probably well aware it is in actual fact, it’s very easy to do that. To convince yourself but I’ve been ferried over the last two or three years on what was known as Project Propeller. And I have, I’ve had a variety of pilots and I’ve flown as passenger with them and quite interestingly I am deadly against wind — so called wind turbines. And I cannot convince the BBC or the papers just what a waste of money they are. But these wind farms shown on air maps are extremely accurate.
CB: Are they?
RM: And they make bloody good landmarks because they actually show the arrangement of them.
CB: Oh right.
RM: So, you can see an arrangement and you can look at the map. Well we must be there. But of course in those days we didn’t. And again, you see, over the jungle as far as I can make out fortunately we were three weeks from going out to the east with the B35s.
CB: Oh.
RM: Which was the later version of the B16. We were within three weeks and VJ day came. Now I cannot stand hot humid weather. Whether it’s a throwback to the Wings Parade with the Governor General or not I do not know but I just cannot stand it and the thought of going out there. I would have been a grease spot.
CB: Yeah.
RM: A grease spot. Yeah.
CB: Just picking up on the navigation.
RM: But it would be with maps.
CB: Yes but —
RM: And dead reckoning.
CB: Yes. Well, I was going to say you use IPs. identification points. Would you put more of those in?
RM: Oh yes. You’d put them on the map because you’d probably, you’d be looking for them on the course. And as I say you take the ground on to the map not the map to the ground. Yeah.
CB: Now, going back to what you were talking about before we started taping you talked about the three mishaps that you had. So, what were they?
RM: Right. The first one was at Navigation School at Charlottetown and that was the fact that due to bad weather we missed the bad weather which was not forecast for the people who flew in our place. So, they got lost and I’m pretty sure that if we had flown on that night and we’d been given that Met forecast — winds light and variable which would take as zero for navigation purposes. It might have been a case of there but by the God go.
CB: Yes. You might also have vanished.
RM: Yes. Yes.
CB: Yeah. In the Great Lake.
RM: No. The Gulf of St Lawrence.
CB: Oh, in the Gulf of St Lawrence sorry. Ok. Next one.
RM: That was the first one.
CB: Ok.
RM: Then at OTU on the return trip from France where we had to land on one engine. They put us on the shortest runway with no wind and of course we vanished through the hedge with rather dire consequences to the Mossie. But — and then the third narrow squeak we had was of course the first time we took off with a four thousand pound live bomb and we got off ten knots slower than we should have done.
CB: Now, the Mossie could take four thousand pounds.
RM: Yes.
CB: But it was just in this particular case. What happened?
RM: Well, we, we — it took us longer to maintain, to achieve height than it should have done. Let’s put it that way. There was considerable chance that if the engines had even stuttered under those conditions on take-off we would have wiped out half of Downham Market.
CB: Was it because of the wind? You took off with the wind? Or what was it that caused it?
RM: Oh, we always took off in to wind.
CB: I know but in this particular case why was it?
RM: George didn’t say very much but I think the engines were not producing as much as he expected or the flaps were not right or something like that but I was too busy then actually during take-off. Getting all the charts ready and getting ready to —
CB: Where were you going that day?
RM: We were going to a place called Eggbeck which was one of the satellite airfields for Kiel. The Kiel Canal in Denmark. And it must have been the name of an airfield because I’ve looked and I’ve actually been in that area. Motored in that area for quite some distance and never found a place called Eggbeck. But it must have been one of the fields which was known as that. Yeah. And that was the one and only.
CB: Right.
RM: I’m afraid. Much to my annoyance. I was really savage when VE day came along, you know.
CB: Yeah. I imagine.
RM: I wanted to get my teeth into the Germans. But these things happen. But as I say afterwards we did the Cook’s Tour. We did quite a few what were known as Bullseyes. Have you come across those?
CB: Yes. Would you like to describe that?
RM: Yeah. Bullseyes were exactly the same conditions you would fly an actual operation. The only difference was at the target area e didn’t drop a bomb. We took a photograph to prove that we were there and we got there on time. Now, to give you an idea of the difference because as I say we had the Lancaster squadron. 635 Squadron at Downham Market and on bullseyes we both did the same route. Now, the Lancaster chaps would go in for their evening meal, would go to briefing and would be taking off as we were getting ready to go to the mess for our evening meal. Our evening meal, briefing, take off. Fly the same route. Be on target at the same time. On the way back we would land, be debriefed and would be having our breakfast when the Lancs were coming in. So two hour difference. Solely due to speed. But here I can give you something which is even more interesting. The American B17, the Flying Fortress. Nine crew. Fourteen guns. Four engines. Bomb load to Berlin four thousand pounds exactly. Out and return nine hours. Now, our Mossies on 608 Squadron, 692 and the other ones on the, what we called the Milk Run. The Berlin run. Out and return time four and a half hours. Now, admittedly with the American the B17s there was time taken up getting into formation and breaking formation on the way back but a lot of people don’t realise with the Americans in daylight, they couldn’t fly at night. They couldn’t navigate. They didn’t know how. They flew in daylight. Formation. Now, they carried a master navigator and a master bomber and I think usually two deputies just in case. They’re in formation. When the lead aircraft dropped his bombs they all dropped theirs. So, what they were doing in actual fact was carpet bombing. Admittedly they’d blanket the target. They would hit the target but that would be covering an area. Now, of course Bomber Command was specific on target markers. You bombed a target and all of the aircraft bombed that target. Not just one or two. So, as I say the American B17 crews were very brave. Much braver than I’d be, I think, under those circumstances to fly in daylight, level thirty thousand feet. Fighter fodder. No doubt. Yeah. Whereas the old Mossie. You couldn’t describe [pause] they did, the Germans did do us an honour. I think it was the Henschel 219 but I’m not sure where it was designed as a two engine night fighter specifically to counter Mosquitoes.
CB: Was it really?
RM: And that was the biggest compliment they could pay us. Then of course the jets came along and that was a different matter. They could sort of commit mayhem. But the interesting thing was that on the raid that we were doing on Eggbeck we were going out and near the target one of the aircraft called out, ‘Snappers,’ and that was the code name for the fact that 262s were about.
CB: Right.
RM: But nobody got lost that night. So –
CB: Messerschmitt 262 jets.
RM: Yeah.
CB: Yes.
RM: I mean they were serious opponents those. The 30 millimetre cannon for a start. I mean you don’t argue with those. Yeah.
CB: What was your operating speed?
RM: Our normal cruising airspeed out was around about two hundred and thirty knots. But that was indicated air speed. I mean at twenty five thousand feet the true airspeed would probably be somewhere in the region of three hundred knots which was covering the ground fairly well. If we went flat out the highest ground speed that I ever recorded was four hundred and ten miles an hours. And that was without trying.
CB: Now, what was the pattern of your operation? Because you were much faster than the Lancasters so you took off late but you had to be there first so how did you do that?
RM: Well the oboe aircraft had to be first. And then the Mosquitoes that carried additional marker bombs would be on target more or less at the same time and they would be listening to the oboe.
CB: Which was the master bomber.
RM: Or the ground. Master bomber. Advising them where to drop their new flares.
CB: Right.
RM: Whether they’d drop them short, long, east or west and so on to correct the error. And then of course by this time the main force Lancs and Mossies would be coming up on the scene but in a lot of cases with 8 Group the light night striking force actually operated on different targets. These targets were designed to be diversionary to lure night fighters away so that they didn’t know whether to go for the Lancs or us and in that case you’d probably get about anything from forty to fifty Mossies attacking quite a valuable target. Yeah.
CB: Now, you talked about twenty five thousand feet. Was that your normal operating height?
RM: Yes. That was normal.
CB: Or did it vary much?
RM: It didn’t vary much. Anything from twenty five — twenty eight thousand. The oboe Mossies, of course, they went up to thirty seven thousand feet.
CB: Oh did they. Right.
RM: Because of course the radio waves were line of sight and at that height they could just get the Ruhr. And of course, the Ruhr was the main complex of the German war industry and after, in ’43 onwards it was systematically demolished with oboe and and with precision bombing. Yeah. As I say the whole area was completely derelict. There was nothing there.
CB: What was your most abiding memory of your experience in the war?
RM: Well, it may sound silly to you but the thing which stuck in my throat more than anything was catching mumps. I mean it was so demeaning. Orchitis. Which, of course is the classic symptoms of that. It’s not pretty and it’s painful and to catch that at nineteen years of age. It was a chance complaint and that, that really stuck with me more than anything. Yes. But that’s the way the cookie crumbles.
CB: Yes.
RM: I suppose in a way what with that and the fact that I got washed off pilots case and the fact we hit bad weather at Nav School. With the time I lost. If it hadn’t been for that I might not be here.
CB: But you might have done all sorts of other things. Operationally.
RM: I might have finished up on heavies with a much heavier chop rate. Yeah.
CB: Just going back to the American training experience. In essence it was to train for flying boats so that –
RM: Yes.
CB: What aircraft did they have in that area working on the lake?
RM: They didn’t. The Grosse Ile was the aircraft carrier part of the navy.
CB: Ah right.
RM: And once they’d completed that you then went down to Pensacola.
CB: Right.
RM: And the Gulf of Florida and converted on to Catalinas.
CB: Right.
RM: Now the interesting thing is that for many years RAF — the RAF Museum at Cosford encapsulated my wartime flying experience very very neatly. They had Canso, which was a Canadian built Catalina because it had a retractable undercarriage whereas the Catalina didn’t. And alongside it was a Mossie B35 which, to all intents and purposes, apart from an astro dome was the same, exactly the same as our B16s. And these were side by side. Now, nobody knew about me there so it was purely chance but I gather now that last year that they actually split them up into two different hangars. Which is a shame.
CB: Changing the subject a bit —
RM: Yes.
CB: A Mosquito is very cramped inside. Or is it? For the navigator? And how did you operate?
RM: Well, I was a lot slimmer than I am now. The amount of room we had. My seat was about that wide. In front of me we had a dashboard with a dropdown table for the maps and what not on. We were actually sitting on the main spar and the pilot’s seat was just in front of the main spar. Now, just here —
CB: In front of you.
RM: In front of me and to the left hand side would be the console with the undercarriage and flaps.
CB: Throttles.
RM: And throttles. For the pilot. Right handed. In front of me, underneath the dashboard would be the opening which I would go through to get into the bomb bay.
CB: Go in legs first.
RM: No. Head first.
CB: Right.
RM: Yeah. Because you had to be facing the front. Yeah. You could only go in head first. There was no room to do a hundred and eighty.
CB: Yeah.
RM: It’s very cosy. The pilot –he had roughly the same amount of room and all the gubbins in front of him and to his left. We were both slimmer and we could both get in. Now, the B, the bomber versions — you went in underneath. It had a floor entry. Like the prototype in South Mimms Museum. The fighter bomber versions had a side exit or entry and that was just aft of the propellers. About nine to twelve inches behind the propellers and in the event of getting out you had to go in. Go out head first facing the rear to make sure you didn’t get mixed up and come out as mincemeat. Yeah. They had a ladder which stowed in the aircraft that you climbed up. You went in facing backwards and then turned around. The pilot went in first, of course to get into his seat. Now, he would have a seat type parachute. We had just the harness and we had the parachute stowed down by the right hand side so that if we had to get out we could just pick it up, clip it on and out.
CB: So, if you had to get out are you going to go out through the canopy or through the floor?
RM: Oh you didn’t go out through the canopy except as we did when we crash landed at [unclear] when it was stationary. If you went out through the canopy you had a jolly good chance of being chopped in half with the rudder. So, you always went out the escape hatch at the bottom. Yes. It would be a very foolhardy thing to go out the top. Yeah. That was quite interesting now you’ve come to mention it. When we were at Gransden Lodge we were doing, going up on an air test actually and we got up to about ten thousand feet and all of a sudden there was a hell of a bang and a lot of rubbish and what not flying about and George said, ‘Get ready to jump.’ So, I sort of put the parachute on and he said, ‘Oh.’ he said, ‘The aircraft seems to be flying all right,’ he said, ‘I thought the front had gone in.’ You know, the nose, with all the rubbish and what not. We were looking around. Couldn’t see anything wrong. And then we looked up and we found that the top hatch had blown off. And of course the vacuum, the sort of [unclear] effect too place all the rubbish in the bomb bay had come out and he said just said, just tried it and he said, ‘The chances are it’s probably altered the stalling speed a bit.’ So instead of carrying on with the climb he played about and found out exactly how the aircraft handled at a hundred and twenty knots which was the normal approach speed and he found it was probably about a hundred and thirty knots with the extra drag. And so, we aborted and came back and landed. There was quite a hullabaloo, you know. ‘How come you lost that hatch?’ Well, one of those things. Yeah. They didn’t charge us for it [laughs] 664B. I take it you know what 664B was.
CB: No. Tell us. Tell us for the tape.
RM: 664B action was to re-claim from your wages.
CB: Yeah.
RM: The money for whatever it was that you’d lost, stolen or strayed. Yeah. A lot of people for instance lost their wristwatches and went on 664B because you could get a Rolex for around about six pounds ten shillings. The Longines. I had actually had a Longines wristwatch. We were issued with watches. I don’t know whether you realise this or not but we had, were equipped with aircrew watches and we had to rate them and adjust them so that they lost no more or gained no more than two seconds a day. Now, that stems from the vital necessity of having exact time to the second when you’re doing astro shots. Because one second in time can mean about a quarter of a mile in position. And for instance Coastal Command types. The Catalinas and the old Flying Boats.
CB: The Sunderlands.
RM: The Sunderland. If they were returning and they had very poor radio signals. Very few Astra shots. And could not be absolutely certain of their landfall because of the astro shots and wrong time. A few seconds. I mean a quarter of a mile could mean the difference between getting into a fjord or a bay or hitting the land at the side of it. So it was vitally important that you got the time down to a second. It wouldn’t have mattered now because course cards. So accurate. But of course with the spring you actually had to adjust them. Now, the first watch I had we were equipped with these at navigation school at Charlottetown. The first one I had was a Waltham. An American which was quite well thought of. But I just could not get it closer than about five seconds no matter how I tried. And after two weeks they said, ‘Right. That’s no use.’ So, I took it back and got a Longines and within a week I’d got that sorted out and it worked quite well. And kept that right the way through and stupidly I handed that in when I was demobbed. Because as I said 664B I could have had it for six pounds fifty. Six pounds.
CB: Even in those days.
RM: Another thing. Another thing too which I bitterly resent or regret handing in was my sunglasses. Now, they were Ray-Ban. Green. They were superb for sun. want a pair of Ray-Ban sunglasses now. Ninety quid. Ridiculous isn’t it? They would have cost about three pounds.
Other: Yeah.
RM: On 664B.
CB: You talked about astro shots. You talked about astro shots so where would you put the sextant. Could you hang it on the —?
RM: Yes, you hung it in the astro dome.
CB: Yeah.
RM: Now, you can turn this off because I’m going to be in trouble.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dick Maywood
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-09
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AMaywoodRM151109
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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02:21:54 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Herefordshire
England--Norfolk
England--Oxfordshire
England--Lincolnshire
Scotland--Aberdeenshire
England--Leicestershire
Canada
Ontario
Ontario--Goderich
Alberta
Prince Edward Island
Prince Edward Island--Charlottetown
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Ontario--Belleville
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
1945-05-08
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Description
An account of the resource
Dick was born in Peterborough and volunteered for the Royal Air Force in 1941. He was called up to Lord’s Cricket Ground in 1942. Dick went to No. 6 Initial Training Wing at Aberystwyth. He then went to RAF Desford, flying Tiger Moths and was selected for further pilot training. After Heaton Park, Dick volunteered for the flying boat course and flew on Stearman N254s at Grosse Isle in the United States. He returned to Canada, initially to Windsor where he was re-selected as a navigator air bomber. He was sent to Goderich and then Mountain View to the bombing and gunnery school on Mark 2 Ansons and the Bolingbroke. He gained his brevet at Navigation School in Charlottetown on Prince Edward Island.
Dick underwent intensive map training on his return and went to the Advanced Flying Unit in Wigtown on Ansons. He proceeded to the Operational Training Unit at RAF Upper Heyford on Oxfords, where he was introduced to Loran. He had just started a tour as a Mosquito Pathfinder navigator before VE Day. He describes the aircraft, Oboe, and the pattern of their operations. Dick participated in Cook’s Tours to the Ruhr Valley. He was in 608 Squadron but it was disbanded and so he was posted to 692 Squadron, another Group 8 unit, at RAF Gransden Lodge. This was also disbanded, and Dick was sent to RAF Blyton for a re-selection board where he was sent on a flight mechanic engines course at RAF Credenhill. He was posted to the 254 torpedo Beaufighter Squadron at Langham until he was demobilised.
608 Squadron
692 Squadron
8 Group
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
B-17
Beaufighter
Bolingbroke
Cook’s tour
flight engineer
Gee
Initial Training Wing
Master Bomber
Me 262
military living conditions
military service conditions
Mosquito
navigator
Oboe
Oxford
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Banff
RAF Blyton
RAF Credenhill
RAF Desford
RAF Downham Market
RAF Gransden Lodge
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Upper Heyford
sanitation
Stearman
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/331/3491/PSouthwellDE1603.1.jpg
14aae2a01070e096fa9c00a5c57a4ace
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/331/3491/ASouthwellDE160424.2.mp3
bd5f88b470f50c82d0fece440095f478
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Southwell, Don
Donald Edward Southwell
Donald E Southwell
Donald Southwell
D E Southwell
D Southwell
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Donald Edward "Don" Southwell (b. 1924 - 2019, 423987 Royal Australian Air Force), documents including a navigation chart, and six photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 463 and 467 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Don Southwell and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Southwell, DE
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DES: [unclear] have you?
AP: My little question sheet.
DES: Oh, good, [unclear] you should have given it to me before.
AP: No, no, no.
DES: [laughs]
AP: So what I do, uhm, because of this little adapter, if I unplug it, the careful tuned thing dies and it gets embarrassing cause it never works. So, instead I have to plug in earphones, so that I can check cause this is a little splitter. I can plug in earphones so that I can listen to it, because if I just try on the speaker, it goes out the earphones so, anyway. It works now, that’ the most important thing, I’ve had a couple of interviews where I had to use the little microphone built in here cause I never know if this thing’s working. Very very [unclear].
DES: I didn’t know there was a mike in those. See, I use one of those all the time. [unclear]
AP: Well, some of them, some of them do, so there is actually a little camera up here, there is a little microphone there, so it is like for web cam, is not for very good quality and it picks up all the noise that’s around, this seems to be more, uhm, localised to adjust your voice, which [unclear] in the recording. I did one of those with a bloke, uhm, Jack Bell, who, he was shot down in Libya, uhm, he’s 98, he was shot down in Libya in 1942 and spent the rest of the war as prisoner, ’43, very early [unclear].
DES: Ah, prisoner.
AP: 42 [unclear]
DES: In Germany?
AP: Uhm, in Italy and then in Germany.
DES: Ah.
AP: Uhm, and the house next door was actually being demolished at the time we did the interview. In the background you can hear a little bit of it, but not very much. So, for a twenty dollar E-bay special, they are pretty good. Anyway, if you are comfortable and ready to [unclear]
DES: Yeah.
AP: All this is, as you know, IBCC interview, uhm, basically we just have a chat. Uhm, I’ve got a sort of list of questions to get us started, but basically I’ll let you run and we go wherever we go and then we might come back and fill in gaps, all that sort of stuff.
DES: You edit it. Yeah.
AP: Yeah, uhm, we just go until one of us begs for mercy basically. I know what you are like, so it could be for a while [laughs].
DES: No, no, no, it’s not right. No, I, whenever this comes up and I’m in a group, I know the people who’ve got all the interesting stories. I’ve been doing this since Australia all over.
AP: No, I.
DES: Down in, [unclear] I’m gonna write him a letter too, but, uh, Ian McNamara and uh he was, uhm, I was all, I did directing, at, down there, I got the, we got this bloke and got this bloke, got that bloke, got that bloke, he’s gonna get all interesting blokes, you know, I knew [unclear] too long [laughs] and they didn’t want me [laughs] Yeah.
AP: Very good. Anyway, uhm, so, look, the shortest interview I’ve done went from forty five minutes long to three and a half hours or so, you know, whenever we get, we get, it’s quite ok. As I said, there’s a list of questions to sort to start of, so
DES: Forty five minutes, [unclear]
AP: That’s very short one, that was very hard because I had to keep asking questions to. Uhm, my favourite one.
DES: You’d might have to do that.
AP: We’ll see what happens when I ask the first question, that’s always the same question I start with and once the opening response went for about ten words, the longest one has been an hour and fifty before I had to say anything else. Which
DES: [unclear]
AP: It’s astonishing, it’s really really good. Anyway, so, uhm, I start off with a little spiel, so, kick off with that now, just to sort of set the time and the place, uh, so, we are recording and it looks good. So, this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Don Southwell, who was a 463 Squadron navigator at the tail end of World War Two. Interview is taking place at Don’s home in St Ives in Sydney, it’s the 24th of April, I should know that, it’s their [unclear] day, my name is Adam Purcell. Uhm, so, as usual, Don, we will start with the normal question, can you tell me something of your early life, growing up, what you did before the war.
DES: Yes, I can certainly do that. Ehm, I was born in Croydon, in New South Wales, in number 10, Hardidge [?] Street as a matter of fact and I was the third child of my mother Cathy. Ehm, I had my brother Brian, my sister and myself, we were four years between each of us and we lived in Croydon, in Sydney. My father died when I was thirty, when he was thirty five and my mother brought us all up to the [unclear], my, I went to school in [unclear] High school and I had, oh I had a job when I left high school. I was, uhm, my first job was at, uhm, RKO Radio Pictures and I was there for about eighteen months and uhm, my mother thought that this picture business wasn’t the sort of place that [laughs] her son should be spending his career in. So, she started to work on various people and I finished up with a job at the MLC. At the MLC, at this particular stage, they only took you with the leaving certificate. My mum couldn’t afford to keep me on the leaving, so, while my brother and sister went to Fort Street High School and did the leaving, uhm, my mum couldn’t afford it. Anyway, we, I went to RKO Radio Pictures and we, uhm, I lasted there and, uhm, I got the job at the MLC and my sister actually worked and that’s how I probably had a little bit of influence and they didn’t want to appoint me first of all but I reached the stage where there weren’t getting many men in because of the war and the war had started and this was in 1941. And so, uhm, I was very fortunate to get that job because I remind there laws about 90 and that’s not a jag either, this is quite true and I [unclear], I have to write, yeah, uh, I was there for eighteen months and the war came and I’d already enlisted, I’d already joined the air training corps, it was 24 Squadron at Ashfield and under control of squadron leader Whitehurst and he had the grads there and we did all the courses for the air training corps and I was also an ARP warden on my bike and I had an ARP band on my arm, patrolling the streets at night to make sure the people were keeping to the blackout rules. I used to sit in those, sit at the top of the town hall at Ashfield and looking for [laughs] Japanese planes coming over. We didn’t get any Japanese planes but we had to report all things that were going in there and then I got the call up for the army. Because I was eighteen the army called me up and because I was in the air force, I had already been in the air training corps it didn’t make any difference so I went up to the infantry training battalion at Dubbo in central New South Wales and, uhm, I was there for about three weeks, while the rifle regiment came in on a motorbike and looking for [unclear] and took me back to the, you know, the orderly room, I was put on a train to Sydney, I was discharged from the army and sent down to Woolloomooloo. In Woolloomooloo was the air force, uhm, recruiting depot and there we did the medical tests and so forth and I was then posted off and I to number nine Glebe Island [?], which is a wharf in Sydney, I went in as an aircrew, I was called, the air force had so many people for aircrew that they couldn’t cope with them at a particular time and they made us air crew guards and I served for three months in Sydney, there’s an aircrew guard, some of them got posted all the way from New South Wales but I was fortunate enough, I caught number nine Glebe Island, where we guarded little beds, belonged to the air force and so forth and we also did jobs working on the wharves and I was part of the secret war people talk about, that the wharfies continually being out on strike and so forth and they asked the, they sent one of us down to do various jobs on the wharves because later all the supplies were going up to New Guinea, was on a ship called the Marino and it belonged under contract to the air force and now, the wharfies were pilfering stuff from this convoys that were going up to the, the trips up in New Guinea, they were pilfering stuff there and so we had a, we were put, what do you call it? A revolver, a Smith and Wesson revolver around their waists and I did stay for one night, I’d be inside the wharf for one day, inside the wharf in the stores where they had all the stuff there laying. We had a guard on the door, a guard on the, uhm, where the crane came down and picked the, uhm, supplies up, one on top on board the ship and one down in the hold. And we virtually stopped the pilfering in the, but there was a great war against the wharfies in those particular days but a very interesting book has been written about the secret war and it’s not only happened there, but it happened in the army and all around the place. So, that was just a little side set up, while I was waiting to go to aircrew. I was then called up to number 2 ITS in Bradfield Park, to go and do my initial training school and, uhm, so began my career in the air force. Then, do you want me to go further?
AP: Yeah, can you keep going as [unclear].
DES: I’m in the air force then, ok.
AP: Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Absolutely.
DES: We’re in Bradfield Park and Bradfield Park was the centre of two ITS and we did the normal parades on the [unclear] rid marches, uhm, we did cross country runs, we did all sorts of subjects that were pertinent to air crew and so forth, meteorology, all that sort of business and we, uhm, that took us about three weeks to do that and then I was categorised as a pilot. Cause I wanted to be a pilot because my brother was a pilot and so they made me a pilot. They sent me off to number 8, I think it is number 8, EFTS at Narrandera and so began my career, started my career as a pilot. The time limit for getting through, through the school was you had to go solo in twelve hours, now came twelve hours and I hadn’t gone solo and the, uhm, my instructor said; ‘Come on, Don, we gotta get you through this’ and we were operating from a little satellite area, outside of Narrandera, he said you gotta go up and go solo today [laughs]. So, I worked out all what I had to do in the circuit and so forth and I went up on the, took off, made a nice take off but I got the wind changed and then [laughs], I didn’t know the wind had changed and I’m doing the circuit on the basis of when I took off, I did the left-hand circuit and so forth and coming, all of a sudden there is a Tiger Moth coming up beside me, it was my instructor and he was pointing down to the wind sock and I didn’t know what he was talking about, you know, so I didn’t, I just went up and landed, I did a beautiful crosswind landing, it was a good crosswind landing but that’s the last time I, I think I lasted for another half an hour or so flying and then they decided that I, you know, I hadn’t gone in twelve hours, didn’t look like it, so they scrubbed me, I was scrubbed and that was a terrible thing to happen to me, to be scrubbed, I wanted so much to be like my brother who could fly before the war. And, so, uh, I was then, I thought, oh, I’ll have it now the air crew but they transferred me. The boy that got a B in mathematics 1 and mathematics 2, the intermediate, they transferred me to embarkation depot as a navigator and so, but I, and then I stayed at the, I came from Narrandera back to Sydney and I stayed there at the embarkation depot and uhm, just as on the side, we used to, get my [unclear] at Burwood, that was a [unclear] about twenty minute train ride from Chatswood, we used to have a night down, tucked down under the barbed wire, get down a lady game driver, was not a lady game driver this near, walk up to take off, picked to be kept, seen the fiver air crew, when I say we there were a lot of fellows doing this, and we get, I get the train to Han, I spend the night at Ham (or Han), get out of bed at about five o’clock, then come back and up [unclear] at five o’clock ready for parade. And so that, that didn’t go on for long of course, but I did my, that was our waiting game but of course, we were going overseas an therefore we couldn’t leave Australia until we were nineteen, that was a government rule, they just couldn’t, you couldn’t leave, you couldn’t get out, be transferred out of Australia unless you were nineteen. So, I kept going, I was before I turned nineteen, I went to embarkation depot, so I kept [unclear] just about every day reminding them that I was, I’ll be nineteen on the seventeenth of April. Anyway, to cut a long story short, we were bound on a train up to, from Central Railway, we went up to Queensland and transferred to Kalinga and the army came, was a big army came and we slept in tents, oh, by the way, the train trip was terrible, we were in, we had to sit up or some fellows were sitting up, lying down on in the luggage racks upstairs but we had a terrible trip that night, that train, they put us like cattle in there, and so we got up to Brisbane to Kalinga and we had to wait there for our ship and that was somewhere around the first or second of July in 1943, ’43, yeah ’43, and we uhm, one night we had the cars or the truck all arrived and took us down to the boat, was the Noordam, was the United States army transport going back to San Francisco, empty or as empty, except for us air force, because they’ve been bringing all those hundreds of thousands of American troops over to Australia for the Pacific War and uhm, so uhm, we set sail from Brisbane heading or Morton Bay and then shortly about two or three hours out from Brisbane we [unclear] and we wonder what we were doing because of the Japanese submarines and all that sort of thing and it was the, only about three or four days before, or, yeah must have been before, we have to because the Japanese had sunk the hospital ship, the, the, the, the, because they sunk one of their hospital ships and we had two minutes of silence we expected to be torpedoed [unclear] and we headed on our way to, I think it took us about eighteen days to get to San Francisco and never been past Hornsby, past Wollongong, never seen the Blue Mountains, I hadn’t been out to the parks to the, in the [unclear] and to Dubbo in the army and, uhm, here I was, just coming into San Francisco harbour and so I made sure I was at the front of the ship and I never left that ship till about two o’clock in the afternoon, we came by, saw the Golden Gate bridge [unclear] I was nineteen years of age and we heard the, we saw the [unclear] prison and the San Francisco bridge and we landed at Oakland and from there we were put on a train and sent up to, up the uhm, West Coast of America, uh, to Vancouver, where we switched trains for our trip on Canadian national Railways, was a steam, was an old-burner train and we went to, went on our way through the Canadian Rockies to Edmonton and slightly north of Calgary at and the thing that strikes us, was the difference in travelling in Australia in the cattle trucks, where we had, uhm, they weren’t there for our Americans in those days but they were there for Americans were waiting on us, we had sleepers, everything was laid on, the Canadian people, the Canadian government were fantastic, and here we were, we were only leading aircraftsmen, we weren’t even sergeants, and so anyway, we got to Edmonton, I went to the, uhm, manning depot, manning depot and I have a big photo in my home here of the, uhm, on one of our parades, you can pick me out in the [unclear], we had the morning [unclear], you can pick out the Australians because of their blue uniforms, all the rest wore khaki, was in summertime, but anyway, you could pick us out, pick me out with the manning depot and then I was transferred from there, which was just across the road, really, to number 2 AOS Edmonton, that’s where I did my navigation course. My first trip on navigation course was a real, [laugh], was a real did last as far as I was concerned but I’ll tell you about it. We, uhm, I had a, uhm, another navigator, we were flying Avro Ansons and, well, just digress slightly on our Avro Ansons and then poor our navigator had to wind the wheels of the Anson, Avro Anson up, a hundred and forty-nine times to get the wheels up, that was their job for, just straight on take-off. Anyway, we went on from this first navigation trip, I had a second navigator with me, who was supposed to be giving me fixes and that sort of thing and I got lost and so while I was suggesting we do, the pilots by the way were all civilians, they were not in the air force, they were under civilian contract and that was [unclear] Canada and, uhm, Maxi Titlebomb his name was and he suggested we get out and have a look at the railway sign [laughs] so we went down to the railway station and were at a sort of place called Wetaskiwin, not far out of Edmonton, but it was Wetaskiwin so I proceeded to [unclear] I knew where I was, I got me air plucked for Wetaskiwin and went up and we continued on our course, I expected to be scrubbed straight off on that score but I wasn’t, no, they didn’t, was the best thing that ever happened to me because I made a mistake on my first trip, you were never, the navigators rule was never to drop your air plot and I dropped me air plot because if you kept your air plot [unclear] end your life to get a position, make some sort of, where you think it was but you, you’d always got the opportunity to do that and, so a navigator never had to, should never drop his air plot. But anyway I finished up, was about six months course, was about six months and we, incidentally we had to, people talk about the weather these days, it was forty degrees, one night it was forty degrees below zero, now was in Fahrenheit was thirty-two degrees and so was seventy-two degrees of frost. We had to warm the aircraft up in the hangers before we went out and we had winds, sometimes we had headwinds where we were going backwards up in the north part of Canada [laughs], you know, very, very frightening for a nineteen year old [laughs] that didn’t know a lot about navigation, but we got through all of it and we, I finished up with a reasonable max coming out of my course, I was always better at the air plot than I was, I always had trouble with my theory things, wasn’t very good on the theory but I was, even if I say so I was reasonable as a navigator. And so we got our wings there and was around December 1943 and I haven’t been out to find many [unclear] since I came across my fellows book called Navigator Brothers the other day and I wrote to the author, because in there was a photo of one of the group that was having their passing air parade, cause a big deal the passing air parade, the Canadians really put on all their pomp and ceremony for their passing air parade. The, uhm, uh, yes, we got our wings and we proceeded then to go to, uhm, to uhm, we’d being posted to Montreal [unclear] I just had a thought, we went to Montreal and we had to wait a bit to go over to England and, you know, during my stay in Montreal, we stayed at a place called the Sheen, we were sent off for six weeks up to a ski lodge, so they didn’t have a boat to take us over to England so they sent us, was about thirty of us, we were all sent up to a ski lodge, luxurious place for, you know, a couple of weeks, two or three weeks, we learned to ski, we learned to use the tennis rackets on the feet to walk in the snow, we learned to ice skate, to do all sorts of things, it was wonderful. Anyway, we got back from, we went back to the Sheen and I found out that my brother, was, uhm, who was a pilot in the Middle East and an instructor at Lichfield, which would probably entirely they said to be Bomber Command.
AP: Absolutely.
DES: But he, uh, I found out he was coming over on his way home to Australia having completed his tour, he was transferred back to Australia but on his way he had to go, he was [unclear] to fly back with a brand new Liberator and Bryan was in New York with his crew, but they’d been flying Liberators although a lot of these fellows who did this were Lancaster pilots, cause there’s two hundred of them eventually, and then Bryan and I we shared a room in Belmont Plaza Hotel in New York for a couple of days. Then he went on his way home or to California, I should say, where he did three months before he flew off back to Australia, If you like I might talk about that later on. But, then I went back to Montreal and we then got advised that a ship was waiting for us in Halifax, so we did a night trip to Halifax from Montreal and we joined the maiden [?] vessel called, the maiden [?] vessel called the Andes, was a flat bottom boat, a, yeah, a 20000-tonner I suppose, but it was very fast and on that boat we had a complete Canadian armoured division, were ten thousand fellows with their tanks and about a hundred aircrew, [unclear] pilots joining there, there were navigators, there were wireless operators, there was bomb aimers, all been trained in Canada and sending us all over and so we went over there on our own, we didn’t go in a convoy, we went on our own, took us about seven days, we went up towards the North Pole and [unclear] in Liverpool but we didn’t have any, uhm, we didn’t have any [unclear] things happening to us except that we, was a [unclear] taking more than seven days but it was a fast trip was what we did and we weren’t allowed about decks at night time, so, at night time you couldn’t go up on deck no matter what it was because people had a habit of lighting cigarettes and submarines could catch you but some of these, the Queen Elizabeth and the Queen Mary, they were too fast for the submarines so they, we zig-zagged all the way across and we arrived in Liverpool and uhm, we uhm, got, we arrived nearly as the morning met by the salvation army, they gave us food and so forth, we went in the big tunnel out of Liverpool and came down to, went down to Brighton PDRC and that’s where I started my first, uhm, flying, my first events in England.
AP: What did you?
DES: Now.
AP: What did you think of wartime England when you first got there?
DES: When?
AP: As a nineteen year old Australian, you are now in wartime England. What?
DES: What I thought of it? Well, uhm, when I first got there I, we went by train down to, we skirted to London, we went to, Brighton was a lovely place but, we were, there was the IFF that had taken over the uhm, the uhm, the Metropole and the, the Metropole and the, the two big hotels, I have just forgotten their names but it was where Margaret Thatcher was blown up later on, she escaped the bombing near in Brighton some years later but we went straight down so, we didn’t see much of the, uhm, the countryside. We were billeted out from the hotels, the [unclear] were billeted out in homes quite near the hotel but we didn’t see any great, you know, people had their coupons, that sort of thing and I saw a lot of it after on my first leave to London, then was when I, you know, realised how terrible things were but there in Brighton, where we were, all the beaches were, they’re all pebble stones not sand all the beaches were mined so you couldn’t go there. If anybody knows Brighton as the Brighton pier, and then it had been chopped in half purposely and the bottom half was used by the air force to, but we used to go and gonna get paid there, we used to go and collect the money on a Thursday or whatever it was, and so uhm, we didn’t see, uhm, in all fairness, you know, I didn’t see, you know, it was, I wouldn’t say, you know, nasty looking, you know, there wasn’t, there was no visible damage that I saw down in Brighton but, my mother and father both came out from England in 1912 so I had relations to go to in England and so I was, uhm, my first leave I had when I went to, I went to a place called Maidstone where my mother was born and uhm, I went to see uncle Ted and auntie Gladys who became [unclear] mother while I was there and I stayed with them and they had a big two story home. He was the general manager of Fremlin’s Brewery, which was a big brewery [laughs] in London and Maidstone, and was a white, the emblem was a white elephant on all the London busses and he was the general manager of this [unclear] and so naturally I was well looked after. If they wanted some meat, if they wanted a steak or some, which was very rare, she takes it, make sure you keep the uniform on and we’ll go down to the butchers today and she, he’s my cousin from Australia you know and they’d toss out some special food for us. But uhm, they seemed to live pretty well you know I think they were, you had to be careful with petrol rationing and that sort of thing but in the group that I sort of as, you know, these people were part of, put in mind, you know, reasonably well off as people and, but she was a real mother to me, she used to take me round on, I always used to go there on leave but she used to take me round and onto, show me the Rochester cathedral or Ramsgate, where my mother used to go and swim as she was a kid and so forth, you know, and I’ve met all my relations but I, I don’t have any, it’s only when later on I went down when I was in the middle of the buzz bombs and the V2 rockets that I realised, you know, how terrible that, uh, what the Germans had done to our people here in London and, you know, when you see streets that are just completely, [unclear] smashed, it was quite something but generally speaking I can’t say that I, you know, I go shopping in London and I, one of the girls there I used to take out, Elisabeth Fulligan, she was a solicitors clerk in London and I used to see her every now and then when I was on leave but I generally speaking, you know, the, I go into a restaurant but we might have a bit difficulty in getting decent sort of stuff but, you know, I can always get eggs and bacon or some I think we had horse meat at some places in London but I didn’t know we were eating horse meat until somebody told us but. Uh, all I can say is about, the people there were marvellous [unclear] and if I can just get back, the people in Canada I missed them, I spent a lot of time when I was in Canada doing my course, one of the fellows on my course was Harry Thompson and he was a Canadian, he lived in 1065 107 Street and we used to go to weekends there and you know, they couldn’t do, his parents and their friends had us all out to their places and we go, they take us to their places and, you know, you can never pay for them, they , it was fantastic in what they did for us and I had, as I say, I had relations in England and they are all the same and I, I think that I was fortunate in that I had relations to go and stay with, all our on the other side of that I missed seeing a lot of England, I used to go down on leave to Wesperdale [?] , good to be when I was there, I was enjoying myself immensely you know, I didn’t drink beer, I drank cider and that was worse. I can always remember going to a Rotary club meeting in Maidstone and they introduced me to a sergeants household and I had to get up and say who I was and I didn’t drink beer and I thought I’d have some cider and I think I was silly as anything because I didn’t realise cider was, I any, I didn’t know much about the air force and before we finished I’d like to speak about to something about the air force that I would like to say but I answered that question there and that’s about the best I can do about the people and the conditions and that sort of thing.
AP: So.
DES: Except that I had a good time.
AP: Well, that’s the important thing.
DES: When I was on leave that was, all my leave [unclear], that’s when you notice these things.
AP: So, from Brighton, where did you go next?
DES: Oh, ok, from Brighton my first port of call was, I think it was 29 OTU, operational training unit at Bruntingthorpe, which was near Leicester and that’s, no, I’m sorry, that’s not where I went, I went to the advanced flying unit in Freugh in Scotland. There’s a good story about Freugh and that’s where we did our first lot of real navigation. We did all trips, day trips out to the Mull of Kintyre, we’re up right in the north of Scotland, no the north, but half way of Scotland, and we were doing all these trips. You went over pretty close to Ireland, we’re doing all these marvellous trips, you know, that’s where we really learned to be navigators, really into, we got our wings in Canada, but this where we really did the real thing and there we spent, West Freugh is near Stranraer and Stranraer was the main port of call when you go over to Northern Ireland and now we are on the maps, normal maps, you can find them on google now but on the normal maps you buy, you will never see West Freugh, I’ve asked many a Scottish bloke about West Freugh but they can never find West Freugh, they can only assume it was probably a farm of some sort but they had especially for that, they made it [unclear] because it was flying, we’re on Avro Ansons again, we were flying Avro Ansons there at West Freugh, they’re a two-engine aircraft, and they had two navigators on board and then we, uhm, so, I think from a point of view of a AF advanced flying unit, by the way, it was number 4 [unclear] which is [unclear], we stayed there about, uhm, oh, we didn’t stay there long, we stayed there from July ’44 to the end of July, early July, 5th of July to the 21st of July and that’s where we did our AFU advanced flying unit . Now, from there, we graduated from there and we were only doing cross country trips and that sort of thing from there. From there we went to 29 OTU at Bruntingthorpe and that’s where what we called crewed up and that’s where we, uhm, we’re all pilots, navigators, wireless operators, correct me if I’m wrong, there was, we didn’t have any engineers cause we didn’t have engineers at that stage we had two air gunners, not certain about if we had all, and the wireless operator and so we all, where we were, we were put in a big room and we were told to find yourself a pilot, navigators find yourself a pilot sort of, so, all was a real PR job, you know, we’d all yeah and there might have been a few drinks [unclear] around too as I say but they all, we were all supposed to be friendly and you wanted to find out if you, you wanted to find you’ll gonna have a team that you could work together with and I, I don’t know how I picked my pilot but I [unclear] [unclear] from [unclear] and was slightly older than me, he’s a big man and he had the biggest hands I’ve ever seen, he was a, he had a grape, not a vineyard, well it was a vineyard but he had dried fruits in [unclear] and now was to sitting behind a big bomber and we had to carry a full bomb load and with his hands gave him a great confidence. But I’ll get back to the Bruntingthorpe now, but we, we got together and we finished up with whatever we had to do and we all then did various cross country fighter affiliation where they send up and you get up in the air find another fighter plane to come and meet you and then attack you and all that sort of thing and all various subjects pertaining to air, Gee, H2S, all that sort of thing and we we’ve been introduced to, that was our navigational aids, air positioning indication, that was another thing we learned all about but that was, an hour on Wellingtons, Wellington bomber, well, they were bombers in the early stage, they were being used for training at this stage now and uhm, the uhm, and so we, when they thought the pilot was satisfactory, off we went then to, let me see, we went to, from to HCU which was the heavy conversion unit and that was our introduction to four-engine aircraft and we caught the Sterling, now said and the, uhm, we were there for a short time, that was just, this was mainly the, the pilot getting used to and the navigator, we were doing more, more uhm, things that we had done before, you know, were dropping bombs and packed us bombs and we were doing long, uhm, long cross countries, uhm, you know, five hours, two hours, that sort of thing and uhm, we, uhm, we’d be when the pilot was satisfactory trained, we were showed off to what we called the Lank finishing skill, it was the Lancaster finishing skill and we were introduced to Lancasters and the, from and that was once again, we all did our own thing with the pilot and he just had to become a professional on that particular type of aircraft and from there we were sent to the squadron. Which was Waddington, which was just a few miles away and, and that was when we started our operational flying.
AP: So, what was your first thought of the Lancaster when you first [unclear]?
DES: Oh, after being on the Sterling [laugh], after being on the Sterling it was marvellous, uhm, yeah, with, uh, yeah because [unclear], the carry under the Lancaster, you know, this was probably the best aircraft that had ever been produced at that time for the duration of the war uh, but everything was, when you are a new pilot on the squadron, you usually get the [unclear] aircraft, but some of them, some of had been there for a while had their own aircraft made sure that they kept their own aircraft, we were not allowed to do this, I was on my first start, we were on one particular type of Lancaster and but everything was so modern and up-to-date, you know for us the Gee was, the navigational instruments were all spot on, you know, we never, I don’t know who did the, to this day I don’t know who did all the mechanics and the [unclear], our aircraft was already, it was one of the ground crew base but, you never saw them at work, at least I never saw them at work, unless something really went wrong but yeah, the gap at the back steps of the Lancaster and to walk along the, yeah, it’s try I suppose when I first went up there, you wonder, Gee, where am I going, you had to walk over a big spare but then again I had my own room, well, area, it was just a small area with a black curtain around it but I had a nice desk, had the astro[unclear] up on top which would flashed the various maps down on the and the stars onto the table, everything was spot on and you know, we came to expect, we’re on a Lancaster, we’re on the best we had and that was the feeling that I had, that I was very, very fortunate, you know, some people like the Halifax , you know, but, you know, they say, I love the Halifax and so forth but we just happened to, uh, it had such a good reputation and such a wonderful aircraft and could carry so many more bombs than anyone else. Uh, you know, I think that, uhm, that was my feeling about my first, but I was amazed, really. I was in awe. Yeah.
AP: So, you then go to Waddington from, what’s it, I think, I saw Skellingthorpe in [unclear]?
DES: Yes, I did, I went to Skellingthorpe I thought that was after. I went to Waddington [unclear].
AP: [laughs]
DES: No we didn’t get to Skellingthorpe.
AP: You didn’t get to Skellingthorpe? [unclear] after.
DES: No, we went to Skellingthorpe after the war finished. We went to Skellingthorpe and we were all transferred to Skellingthorpe and we were, uhm, we had our final passing air parade in August, August 1945. We had our passing air parade.
AP: So, alright, we will get back to Waddington then.
DES: Yeah, get back to Waddington.
AP: Yeah [laughs]. Uhm, where and how did you live on the Squadron at Waddington?
DES: Oh, well now, Waddington was a permanent station in England, a permanent RAF station. It was, it had been there for many years and it consisted of what you would call apartment-type of accommodation, it was brick, big brick flats and in that we’d all, the officers, my pilot now was a flight sergeant right through but as soon as he went to the Squadron, he got his commission and that was the rule then he got his commission. And so he went to the officer’s mess and they had their own specific area and we had our own, we were in dormitories and, uhm, I had, I sort of, well, I was a flight sergeant a lot of that time but I was regarded as a bit senior, not senior but, I seemed to be the one that organises for when and what we are doing outside out of the, you know, for our recreation cause my pilot didn’t smoke or drink and that is marvellous, [unclear] didn’t smoke or drink, he was young too but, but he was a great one for, uhm. He was really wrapped in aircraft, which he should be I know, no, but he gathered at the end of the runway if we weren’t flying a particular day on the squadron he’d go off at the end of the runway and watch them all take off and that sort of thing, he was, he was a wonderful bloke and then he took a great interest in everything, but he. My brother was the same, he would do all that sort of thing, you know, they’re really wrapped but others might be doing something else, but, we used to, well, there were various things we could do, I used to take them down to the, we used to go down to The Horse and Jockey, which is still there, the hotel, but it was a hotel in the , you know, we could go and have something to eat down there, or we’d have a few [unclear], play darts, [unclear] balls and that sort of thing and there a lot of our lot, we had pushbikes and we could pushbike down to the Horse & Jockey and that was in the little town of Waddington, was only a little place and uhm, uh, a lot of our time was spent going around and then we’d have, every six weeks we’d have leave. But, sticking to Waddington, uhm, you know, we had a lot to do, we had dances, the west [unclear] we would have dances all night, yeah, we’re all, uh, I reckon that we were all well looked after and they really were, I’ve recently been back to the Horse & Jockey, and, you know, they are so pleased to see you and they were like that in England. Most, I think of most of them were, I’m not being a snob but I think most of them were pretty good party fellows, there were not a lot of drunks, gave me a favorite to drinks, we had a, we had right a bite back and a [unclear] who used to stop us every now and then and say: ‘Aye, aye, aye!’ but they wouldn’t do anything to us. They were quite, uhm, quite pleasant. But I’ve really found that the people there, I didn’t get involved in anything much outside [unclear] leave I had relations to go to [unclear] wonderful, cause I had my mother’s side and my father’s side so I had relations of both so [unclear] he was from, my father was from Maryport in Cumberland, right up in the north and I have been there a few times since. I met my grandfather that I had never seen and a bit quite of the other relations but the grandfather was the closest, he was a tenner and there was gaslight, there was no electricity, was gaslight, and he, I had to sleep with him, he had no other accommodation there was I think he had a family gone but there wasn’t a very big place and I had forgotten he had, I was [unclear] he was one of six brothers, my father was one of six brothers but later on I found out that my grandmother had fourteen kids so that meant we, in the last few years I’ve been chasing up all these people we’ve met, since I didn’t know we had but sticking to the, uhm, on the Squadron, yeah, we, uhm, I don’t think I had much more [unclear] than I, I had just a normal [unclear], I used to go to church at the Lincoln Cathedral every now and then, I used to go to Southwell. In case you don’t know that Southwell was six miles south out of Newark in Robin Hood territory and it’s a cathedral, it’s got a cathedral so it’s a city, it’s only a small place but it’s a city of Southwell, although they call it Southwell, and so I went there a few times, I was made very welcome and incidentally the Southwells in Australia is one of the biggest families in Australia but, and I am connected with them but they’re in Canberra and they, their offshoots are all, uhm, there is an enormous lot of them, probably the biggest family in Australia, the Southwells. You might, [unclear], but the government gave them a grant in the bicentenary they have their big reunion in Canberra, so there must be some truth in there.
AP: So, you mentioned The Horse & Jockey earlier. Uhm, if you walk into the Horse & Jockey, in wartime, what’s there, what does it look like and what’s going on?
DES: Looks like an old English pub.
AP: Yeah? Funny that.
DES: Yeah, a bit out [unclear] cause I went back a few months again and I hardly knew the place, it had been changed around, they moved a lot of the chimneys out, but I can’t remember getting to a reunion in 1995 at the Horse & Jockey and they had an upstairs everybody could go and we had a great get together that day which was been back on Channel 9 and I was lady in the singing of all the wartime songs in Waddington but it was a real meeting place down, there was another pub we tried [unclear] plus I didn’t drink much but I went to that, oh, I was drinking as at that stage I hadn’t started to drink but that’s another story. My brother, I didn’t mind, now I never drink in our family and my brother on his way back he came up to see me in Montreal at one stage and he said: ‘Would you like a beer?’ And I said: ‘Oh no, I will have a lemonade’. And he said: ‘I will have a beer’. I said, oh, so I didn’t say anything to him. And when since I got back to Montreal, I’ve had a beer and I’ve been drinking beer ever since [laughs]. But, you know, Canada was a funny place for beer because it’s a, they don’t sell beer in a, in those days they didn’t sell beer in a hotel, you had to go into a place that was especially designed and sit down and have a beer but you put salt into the beer to get the gas out of, it was so gassy, that’s another story. But, the Horse & Jockey now, I gonna say now because honestly I’ve forgotten what it was there like but now they have a lot of dart boards around, we played darts and we played balls outside, it was fun, uhm, but it was just, you know, there were members of the public, you know, the people that were working there, we would fraternise with them, they were all friendly with, so, it was generally, it was nice, actually it wasn’t a bad place to go and have a [unclear] and a [unclear]. No, I wouldn’t say that, [unclear] we were [unclear] but more recollections of the Horse & Jockey that was, I said, the crew kept together, I kept the crew together, we were all there together, it was the whole other six of us, there as, that didn’t mean, there was no worry about that but I would like to add that I had [unclear] to my place in about 1950 or 60 and he [unclear] smoked. So, [laughs], [unclear] it’s been a change, he remained a bachelor all his life. But he was wonderful fellow and he was another one, as I say he was very, very keen on, what he did, he took on the training course after the war in [unclear] and he was, he got a medal for that, an RFD or doing something like that, royal returned forces, no, not returned, what’s it, returned something forces decoration? Not returned forces. Anyway, as an RFD, as a, there’s a post normal or medal, but he, he got one of those. But he was a great fellow and he brought us home safely.
AP: [unclear] Alright.
DES: But I had a lot of confidence in him, as I was saying, earlier on, [unclear] blessed hands, they were bigger than mine, I got the tiniest hands you’ve ever seen, mine, my wife’s gloves won’t fit me, you know, they’re my hands, my hands are so tiny, but, yeah, he was, yeah, that’s about it, [unclear].
AP: Yeah, we’re going alright still. So, a little bit more about this daily life in Waddington. The Sergeants Mess, what was that like, what sort of things happened there?
DES: Oh yeah, the Sergeants Mess. Yeah, well, we spend a bit of time there, no, after a trip we do was going to the mess and there’s a lot of, a lot of untoward things went on in the Sergeants Mess and some of the other persons over there, a bit longer than I was, tell some wonderful stories about bringing a donkey into the mess and there’s the Officers Mess and all sort of that. But, we, uhm, I can’t recall, my memory is not that good for the Sergeants Mess. I can, I know what it was like but it was not a place that, you know, we all met there at various stages and had our lunch there and our dinner there and all that sort of thing but, uhm, this never stayed in my mind as being rather relevant to me, I don’t know why but I know we ate there and had our meals there and you know the ordering officer would come round and say: ‘Any complaints?’ [Laughs] Every day in the evening we had our meal there, the ordering officer would come round and say, quite often it was one of the, one of your pilots that, [laughs] you know, was his turn to come over from the officers mess and say: ‘Any complaints?’ What’s the officer, orderly officer, any complaints, I don’t know, that I had many complaints, no, I can’t help, I can’t recall a lot about the Sergeants Mess.
AP: Did 463 and 467 Squadron eat in, did they have their own officer’s mess [unclear]?
DES: No, we were all together, they had their own, the two were there together.
AP: So it was more [unclear] Waddington.
DES: yeah, yeah, yeah. Was Waddington, yeah. Yeah, when we went back to Waddington in, when we went to the Officers Mess there was just one place, yeah, there was only one place, there was 463 and 467, yeah, we got to know each other 463 and 467, as you know 467 was the first Australian Squadron, first Squadron on, uhm ,first was their own Squadron, they were formed in about 1941, something like that and then after they got a big bigger, we wanted to have another Squadron, so 463 grew out of [unclear]? Yeah, [unclear], grew out of [unclear], is it about November or December? ‘43, would that be right? 47 might have been ’42, I think it was ’43.
AP: Yeah, ’43.
DES: Yeah, it was ’43, I think. And so that’s how 463 was. Uhm, and that was under Wing Commander Rollo Kingswood-Smith, who send me off the parade ground for not having a shave. And I was only a young bloke who only shaved about four days a week and I was on, and they sent me off the parade ground for not having a shave. And then later on of course, I’m going ahead of fifty years I became the secretary of 463 Squadron, Rollo was, he is the patron at present, no, he is the patron, I think but he was and he came up to me, oh, I did know him a bit afterwards so. He came up to me and looked at me and said: ‘Oh, Don, you’ve done your shave today’. And days before he died, he said to me: ‘Don, you had your shave today’ and I reminded him when I came back from England but I became quite a good friend of Rollo, when I finished, cause he is really very, very good, he always [unclear], you know, he was a flight commander, no he was a CO, or was a flight commander, whatever he was, he wasn’t a station commander, because that was different from, but he was, he was a 463 commanding officer but he did his trips at the time, he never, he always did his trips, so, he could have quite easily have said, No, I’m going tonight or something like that, but Rollo would always do his trips and never fail. And he was always very good with his, I know, with his writing to people for, you know, lost their and lost their sons and but I believe he was a very strict, he was a very, very strict man, as I say, he was quite different in late years, well, he was, you knew where you stood with him but, and I think he had to be to be the commanding officer at that particular, and we had all walks of life in our, uh, in the air force.
AP: Did 463 Squadron have any superstitions or hoodoos or anything that you are aware of of [unclear]?
DES: Not that I am aware of, I always used to carry my RAF, I had no RAF scarf, always carry my RAF scarf, had to go back one night to get it, but, which I had forgotten, I had to get back but that was only a personal deal I don’t think I was really superstitious about I had to carry my RAF scarf, it was a scarf, it wasn’t a tie, it was a scarf, I didn’t see many of them, I still got mine on my top drawer beside my bed I’ve got my Royal Air Force scarf. I also had my Royal Air Force [unclear] [laughs].
AP: [laughs]
DES: Some [unclear].
AP: We were talking about off tape before we started. Very good. So, you flew nine operations [unclear].
DES: I did nine operations, yep.
AP: Do any of them particularly stand out?
DES: Yeah, was a couple I can have. The trip, uhm, I did to Pilsen. We took off, was a long trip, Pilsen was in Czechoslovakia and it was a long trip and not, we had a couple of hours and now one of our engines went and the skipper said to me: ‘Do you think we can make it?, and I said: ‘Yes, I think so. I think we can take a few short cuts [unclear] we might be able to make it, we don’t tell anybody whatever’. And he said, [skimming through pages of a book], yeah, the uhm, I said: ‘I think I could make it’ and I did a few calculations and even though I say [unclear] I reckon I did a pretty well navigation so I think that was that day because you know you had to be careful if you gonna take any short cuts it couldn’t stand out we were on a track that you were given and as long as you stayed four miles or five miles out of the side of the track you are fairly safe because that’s where all the other aircraft were going, and we were tossing out the silver paper, the Window, that made look as if there are more aircraft out and that sort of thing. But we had to be careful if we went out of it, you could be picked off by the German radar, so you had to be a little bit careful. So, anyway, we got there on time, uhm, we uhm, and uhm, so that was a long trip that I got a bit of praise for by my skipper in the briefing that we went back to and that was about uhm, eight hours and we bombed on three engines. We were diverted when we got back cause we didn’t have much fuel left, uhm, we landed at Boscombe Down that particular night and, uhm, then the next day went back to, uhm, to, uhm, Waddington but uhm, yeah, it was that. And one other night we went to [unclear]. I was in a couple of thousand bomber raids, daylight, we were over Essen and Dortmund and I, we bombed through a cloud there and this was, you realised we were getting towards the end of the war and the master bomber was down below the clouds and he’d come up the cloud, drop the target indicators and go back down again and see how they went and he turned on the RT, the radio telephone and he turned into [unclear] TI by ten seconds or something like that, you know, and he’d be conducting the whole operation from down below. And, so we were just, we just dropped bombs, we didn’t see where they go, we just dropped them on top of the cloud, and that was on the Krupp works at Essen and Dortmund and. But there was another one I was going to mention and we went to [unclear], and uhm, which is just south of Hamburg and the wind changed that particular night and the whole force was all over north-western Europe, we got a little blown away but well, I got a little bit off course, I got to say this, I got a bit off course and we were chased by the German jetfighters, the 263 I think it is? The 263, something like that, the 263? But, we went into a cork, we did have, we were well-trained, went straight away and went into the corkscrew and we did all that, and, cause they can only stay up for about ten minutes and so they, you know, you, if you did your corkscrew properly, probably you were safe so we got out of that but that was, we were picked off there because I got a bit off course. And then I went to uhm, smaller refineries, Bohlen, I went to Bohlen, that was out near Leipzig, for people that might know where Leipzig is, a lot of these synthetic oil refineries were in Eastern Germany and, uhm, we’re at the crossing of the Rhine when the British army were, uhm, crossing the Rhine, uh, we were given the job of bombing Wesel, we were given the job of bombing Wesel and, uhm, which we did and I think it was only, it was only our, you know, our group went that particular night but the British army were on one side of the river and the German side, the Germans were on the other side, and we bombed the other side but we were given a certain time because the British were going into the water at a certain time to go over and I took it with the loss of one life, I think it was in, General Montgomery, Field Marshall Montgomery, he, send the message back to, they brought it over to the loudspeakers the next day on parade, do you want something to eat?
AP: No, thank you.
DES: It was on parade and we were on parade and they read out a message from Montgomery to say how wonderful it was and we did a wonderful job bla, bla, bla, yeah, and uh, yeah that was interesting because you can, if you go to Wesel afterwards it’s quite, you know, I’ve seen some photos of it lately and I think they have rebuilt most of, most of the place. And lastly we did the last operation of the war which was on Tonsberg, which was in the southern part of Norway and we approached it from the North, so it was a long crossing over the North Sea, this was the last operation of the war, on Anzac Day, and with the, we came down the coast, I was coming down from Norway, with Sweden on the left hand side and Sweden was all beautifully lit up, all lit up and the other side was all black, blacked up there was the, Norway which was under the control of the Germans, anyway, we, uhm, that was the last operation of the war and we, uhm, that was bombed successfully but on, if I check forward about fifty years, I was at a funeral and, uhm, of a lady who was of Norwegian birth and the ex-consul of Norway was there and I went and spoke to him and I said: ‘I’ve never been to Norway except on the air’. And he said: ’When were you there?’ I said: ‘Oh, I was there on the 25th of April 1945’ and he said: ‘Well, your aim was pretty good that night’. [laughs] Not at all, so I thought we did pretty well. He said yes. He said, but some of your bombers did bomb the shipyards, some of them went astray and they bombed some of the civilians and he said that all the people of Norway, the war was coming to an end, the 8th of May was the end of the war, the war was coming to an end, they are all thrilled, all happy because everybody knew the armistice was coming on that particular day and he said, now, all the people in the rest of Norway, he said, we were burying our dead and he was very nice about the whole thing and, you know, he is, I got him down as a likely speaker for whoever wants someone to speak about it but, they were very understanding and. So I must really go to France these days, you know, the people in France they were terribly bombed, you know, was, they are thanking you and thanking you and we did an enormous lot of damage but they realised that we had to, that we had to do that for, uhm, sake of winning the war.
AP: So, you mentioned that Messerschmitt, or the jetfighter.
DES: Jetfighter, yeah.
AP: And the corkscrew. So, you are the navigator. You hear corkscrew port go. What happens next?
DES: I have been difficult. Well, we gotta a set of pattern what you got to do the, if the plane’s coming in from the port, you corkscrew port go the rear gunner or whatever the hillside part will do his corkscrew and he’d go down fifteen hundred and he’d turn and he’d go up fifteen hundred feet and it’s quite a ring morale to do but you fly, if you do it properly you fly, you know, a certain course even [unclear] and so, you know, it didn’t do much damage to our [unclear] we didn’t have to make much allowance for an hour in our navigation, if you had to corkscrew port, you, you could just sort of forget about it and just there’s, as long as you weren’t [unclear] too long but generally speaking you flew a net course for this business, all designed to and it was very successful the corkscrew but I, I think we did this about three times I suppose.
AP: What does it feel like?
DES: Oh, I don’t mind, don’t forget we are nineteen years of age there, this was just, this was just wonderful, trusting the aircraft. Oh, of course you were worried a bit about where you were being shot down that goes into it, but generally speaking the corkscrew never, we thought if we did the corkscrew port we would be safe. You’ve got that feeling in your mind that you’d do that, I always remember Redge Boys [?] he was our hero, he was [unclear], he was our navigation leader at Waddington and Redge he did two tours and he said he never believed himself that he’d ever be shot down and he tried to, he despite the fact that the pilot was the chief, he always made sure the crew were all, you know, positive about what we were doing, they were all, they were always convinced that they were gonna get through this. They had this positive attitude that they, you know, and I think it helped, while you’re up there, [unclear], I tried to adopt that attitude that, you know, we all wanted to get home and see the people and I want to get home but, I must admit that, when we were on a bombing run, I used to see, a navigator didn’t have his parachute on, he, you couldn’t work on a desk when, cause we had a chest parachute that fitted on a harness on your chest and you had it sitting beside you. Now, uh, if I was to leave there at my desk, I’d always put my parachute on and I would go, if we were on a bombing run, I would remember the course you got to steer after we dropped our bombs and I’d turn the light out and I’d go up and stand behind the pilot, and watch all the, what was going on and I could then pop down to the rear gunner, near the rear gunner and say, could I have a look at the pilot [laughs] and you’d see the fires and all that sort of thing in the background. But, you know, I felt as if I wanted to be part of the thing so I wanted to see what was going on. Cause everyone else could see what was going on except the wireless operator and what’s the name because we were sitting [unclear] bomb’s gone, you’d have to wait a while, while the photo was taken, away was given course 270 and off we go. And, yeah.
AP: Yes, that’s unusual, most, uhm, most navigators I have spoken to would, you know come up and have a look [unclear] take the head and go, no, don’t ask me to do that [unclear].
DES: Oh, now, that’s, that’s another story. Well, that is. After, a lot of people don’t know about this. But after the war we disarmed, the war had finished and we were disarming with all our, [unclear] disarmed and we had to get rid of all the bombs on the station. So, what they did was we’d [unclear] might have been a couple of weeks, I could look that up but that’s been a couple of weeks, we flew out of Waddington with four bomb loads, headed to the North Sea, about two and a half hours and straight course out, dropped our bombs, they were dropped safe, they weren’ dropped armed but they were dropped safe, and there, I know what the Greenies [?] had signed out because they knew all these thousands of bombs now there was really thousands of us, there was not only our Squadron but every other Squadron was doing this. We go out there and then we come back and if you were above the cloud, we used to have a lot of fun with the pilot with going over the cloud, as if you were low flying. We had some lovely time so, but what I’m coming to is I thought this particular dive [?] was navigation record, no had Gee operator, [unclear], I didn’t done any, I didn’t have to do any strict navigation set up, I, cause I had near position indicators which told me, anyway, we, I thought I’d like to get into the rear turret and I saw [unclear] was the rear gunner and he could come up and sit in the navigation seat and I’d coming in here for a couple of hours, you know. So I trotted off down to the and the [unclear] showed me what to do and [unclear] I couldn’t have gone out of there, couldn’t have gotten there faster, was scared stiff, you know I’d never been because you’re away from the tires of the aircraft, when you are sitting back behind you, so, you are sitting out in the open. You know, you’re away from the aircraft so you feel like it and I think [unclear] having to sit [unclear] on our trip to sit in this thing, you know, you’d be, mind you, these, while our air gunners had had the experience of flying they knew what they’d, you know, they’d got used to it I suppose but me as a person I was scared stiff, I was more scared stiff getting into, getting out of that turret than I was, say, sitting out there in the navigation and bombs, looking down and looking at bombs going off and [unclear] I was scared stiff on that trip. And I had the greatest of admiration for our rear gunner out there, how they could [unclear], and [unclear] you know, I’m not necessarily claustrophobic but I thought oh, Jeez, I couldn’t do this. And I realised how well off I was, because the navigator was lucky I reckon because, as I say, on a ten hour trip you’d have, you had to get a fix every ten minutes or so and, you know, you no sooner that you’d got your fix, you’d plotted it, as you got your fix, you plotted it, you’d make the necessary course, the course change and so forth so If you had to make any change and it took time and the time went quickly this was what the beauty was the pilot was the same, he may be sitting around looking, you know, sitting out on the front [unclear] putting on a [unclear] every now and then, yeah, most of the time but he, and but the navigator had to do and the wireless op was something similar to, he had a lot of work to do, he had to keep the schedules and report back and we had our jobs and our logs don’t forget, as soon as we got back, were handed in to the navigation leader and you were marked as if you were at school and you get 60 percent, or 50 percent or 75. And uhm, you know but this is why we had, oh I must say this as a navigator, that we had marvellous navigator, the navigators were, the Royal Air Force and the Royal Australian Air Force, they were wonderfully trained, they, don’t forget, they took as about eighteen months to get into operations, the Americans, I understand can get in as navigating, get in about six weeks training, you know, and that’s not exaggerating, I believe as I say, because some of the B-24s out of Darwin carried, the Americans carried Australian navigators if you look up your history, which is not widely spoken about, but we were well trained and, as I say, we strictly [unclear], we knew our work was big marked anyhow so you had to be, you really gave you a greater incentive to be [unclear] but above all, you know, a ten hour trip might have seemed by far, you know, then, yeah.
AP: VE-day.
DES: Ah, VE-Day. This is all vivid with me, I had wonderful times on VE-day but VE-Day I did three trips to France bringing home, I think it was on VE-Day, yeah, it was on VE-Day, I don’t know if it was three or two we didn’t the next day, you know I did three trips of bringing home prisoners of war, we’d go over in Juvincourt in France and load up twenty five, it was called Operation Exodus and we were out, we load up to twenty five British war, British prisoners of war, they’d been, some of them had been there since Dunkirk in 1940 and the first load we carried, oh, they sit, the twenty five of them sat in the fuselage of the Lancaster on cushions, not seatbelts, uhm, they just had to hang on and [laughs] they just had to sit there and there were thousands of them, we brought out prisoners of war with this Operation exodus by the way, but they were, uhm, It was a wonderful experience, it was one of the greatest experiences of my life, you flew these guys out, they’d been prisoners of war all these years and they, uhm, the first load I carried they were all Sikhs, they were Indians the first lot we carried out. The next load we carried were all obviously from England and it seemed to be most obvious, I made sure that I went down and I got them to come up gradually when the white cliffs of Dover came, got them, and we ferried them up but it was nice and orderly and hear the tears was rolling down their cheeks, you know, was absolutely wonderful to see the, uhm, and they all shook hands when we, uhm, they all shook hands when they got off the aircraft and that was what I did on VE-Day. Now, shortly after VE-Day we had a lot of celebrations and I, you know, I can always remember smoking a cigar, having a few beers, I was Mister Churchill at one stage, you know, was a lot of hilarity and joyness and it was a wonderful feeling, they, you know, all the station was all together and we were all having, officers, ordinary, you know, the airmen, we were all together having a and they’d put on some wonderful [unclear] there and at that particular time and that’s my, I worked on the VE-Day there and we were so glad we were doing, and the guy that wrote our 463-467 book, Nobby Blundell he was a, uhm, he was a fitter, he was a fitter, uhm, an engineer and on a ground staff and he wrote our books incidentally, all the books on 464-647 fisher [?] books were all written by Nobby did a magnificent job but the uhm, was great the, uhm, he managed to, you know, get, gives us all the particulars that we wanted to know, I don’t know, and he was all of our flying set up, all of the, he’d used the, [unclear], is that called, the evidence of our doing your trip, he used to get all these information from the [unclear], he spend years on doing this and so we were forever grateful and he did this but, uhm, getting back to VE-Day, I was more than, more than pleased with what was happening and then of course we had to start thinking about what was gonna happen as it was after VE-Day.
AP: Uhm, how did you get back to Australia?
DES: Ah, that’s a good [unclear], you’ve got some good questions. They are very good, you know, [unclear], we uhm, the uhm, oh I made two efforts to get away. We were disbanded by the way, we were disbanded in August at, uhm, Skellingthorpe, I think it was Skellingthorpe, we’d moved to Skellingthorpe from the Squadron and they formed a Tiger Force for people that were gonna go out to fight the Japanese and uhm, we uhm, managed to particular Tiger Force the uhm, [unclear] you know just asking [unclear].
AP: How did you go home?
DES: How did you go home, yeah. Lost my train of thought. At my age you can.
AP: That’s one. That’s the first one in [unclear]
DES: No, I forget.
AP: Off you go.
DES: Oh, good. [laughs] I know you can scrub that out, yeah, but getting home. Yeah, but I wanted to mention about, we disbanded and then we were transferred to Brighton to wait for a boat and the [unclear] came along. Now, a lot of people in the Air Force know what happened there, there was virtually no, [unclear] but the conditions on the [unclear] which is the [unclear] boat, there was no P&O those days, [unclear] made all the newspapers that a lot of the trips walked off the ship at Southampton because of the conditions, I didn’t want to go twenty five days or so we gotta go and we went back through the canal and [unclear], well we didn’t stop, well we stopped in a few places, the uhm, it was, the, in Brighton we went from, we’d gone onto the ship on the [unclear], we’d got onto the ship and we sailed eventually, we sailed to half of it and wouldn’t you believe we broke down in the Bay of Biscay and the war was over, there was no submarines or so, the war had finished at this time, this was in August or September 1945 [unclear] and we, in between time we had been flying, we’d been doing, taking stuff out to drop the bombs and we’d been doing fighter affiliation and all, we then found work for us to do. Anyway, we set sail out of Southampton and we broke down, and we were flying the black flag, anyone knows it’s out of control and so we eventually we got, we slipped back to Southampton, the first time I have ever been sick was on that bay because we just it [unclear] and happened [unclear] it was about 20000 tons and was their luxury ship when the [unclear] luxury could have been made into a troop ship and we went back to Southampton we were sent then up to Millham. Now Millham is right up near West Freugh, up near Stranraer, right up on the North-West of England and [unclear] us all up to, it was the middle of winter. And we were in Nissen huts and we had to try and keep warm and they had to heat us there but ran out of coal, they couldn’t get, we were rationed the coal, so we smarty Australians [unclear], there was the coal, we got into the coal, [unclear] and pinched the coal, I caught a couple of sometime [unclear] about but we had to go and pinch coal to keep warm. And uhm, we eventually went from there, we were there about a week I suppose and then they found another boat for us which was the Durban Castle, it was a [unclear] ship which went from London, used to go from London to Cape Town and that was a nice ship was made up of air, the complement of going home was a lot of air force people, we had New Zealanders coming home uhm, was quite an interesting lot of people that were on board but we were in [unclear], I was a warrant officer then I’d got up to warrant officer and there under the normal chain, six months of flight sergeant, twelve months of, uh, sorry, six months of sergeant, four months of flight sergeant, then you’re put and made a warrant officer, that was the RAAF and so we’d became warrant officers and then was commission if you got a commission. And the uhm, we uhm, [pauses] [unclear] yeah, yeah, we’re back, we’re off from and, yeah, we were now on the Durban Castle, we’re on the, I forgot, the Durban Castle and the Durban Castle and we had a lot of, we pulled into Gibraltar, can remember Gibraltar, the conditions on the boat were good, the food was good, I put on a stain on the way back because, you know, we put a lot of potatoes, they had a lot of stuff [unclear] but they fed us well, it was a full ship really, but we picked up people on the way, we went to Gibraltar but that was to drop off somebody who was sick so we didn’t pull in, it was just off Gibraltar and we could see the place and if anybody is interested they oughta go to Gibraltar, it is one of the most interesting places to go there. Uh, you don’t expect to see what you see, so we, Gibraltar just a night, we dropped these people off and then we went to Taranto in Italy, in the heel of Italy and there we picked up the New Zealand war brides, that had married a lot of the New Zealanders, who were fighting in Italy, they’d either gone home or [unclear], but the war brides were on their own and so we picked up the war brides and that filled the boat a bit more and then we went from Italy to the Canal, went through the canal, and they wouldn’t let us off the boat in the canal and, you know, none of us would have been through the Suez Canal and so, that was working of course and so was [unclear] to Port Tewfik, Tewfik? No, Port Said, we went to Port Said and they, one of the guys in that was with me at the time, was called [unclear] and he had a DCM, Distinguished Conduct Medal which he had earned in the Middle East but he was in the Air Force, he was, he was a gunner in the Air Force but and he’d been to Port Said, you know, he knew all about this place and we had to get to Port, [mimics the gunners voice] so there was a ladder down at the back of the ship and so a few of us got out of the bumboats as they called them [unclear] and we went ashore, we went ashore, we didn’t take any notice of them people [unclear] we, most of the people were doing this but they were not supposed to. And so we were wondering around the town and the Arabs tried to come and sell us something, dirty postcards on sale [laughs], you know, and we were looking, [unclear] got out, went off and he hit one of these blokes, he hit one of these blokes, you know, because he was trying to do something wrong or I don’t know what it was but he knew what he can get away with, he slapped him on the face [unclear] we gonna get caught [unclear] being in a riot, anyway we got back to our ship alright and went up the gangway this time, no one said anything so. We went through the canal which was a great experience to go through and see how that operates, I’ve never been through the Panama but a lot of our fellows went through the Panama, which I would have liked to have done, uhm, then we went into Aden, and then we, that was near Yemen, and that was in Yemen where you nearly got a lot of troubles and then we went to, uhm, Perth, we went straight across the Indian Ocean to Perth and that’s where we dropped of the Perth blacks [?] and I remember carrying, not carrying but helping a bloke who’d had too much to drink in Kings Park and we were gonna miss the boat, cause you had to be up to Perth and the boat was at Freemantle, we had to get back by train and we had to get him back so [unclear] helped him back but he was not used to Australian beer cause the British beer was pretty, uh, pretty weak and this Australian beer was pretty, you know, pretty [unclear] anyway we got back, we came around the [unclear] to Melbourne, and was Melbourne we got off the boat and went to, uhm, went on the train, went on the train to Sydney, I don’t recall, must have been the train of the time, we sat up but we didn’t have sleepers, and no, we went up to Sydney and the Vietnam blokes all complain that they didn’t get a welcome home. Well, none of us got a welcome home but we were quite happy, cause we arrived at Central Station on platform number one, my mother and sister were there to meet me, they took me home and then a week later I was to report at Bradfield Park, I went to Bradfield Park, they gave me a dischargement home and I went back to work.
AP: That was it.
DES: That was it.
AP: Did you have any issues settling down again? [unclear]?
DES: No, no, no, I had no issues. The only thing is for a while so I went straight back to my job that I left at the MLC and I had been there eighteen months, for eighteen months so I didn’t know much about the business and so I got into, when I went to, I applied when I went back, this is in early 1946 I uhm went back to the MLC and they put me on, they had to put me on that was the law, they had to put you back on staff and they sent me to a department where I was the only fellow with a hundred and forty girls. I’d been in the Air Force all this time with fellows, we had the well WAAF around but generally speaking you weren’t used to mixing around with women, you know, and they put me there for, they put me there for a purpose, of course, and they put next to me the girl that spoke the most [laughs] she was a real gossip, she spoke the most, Shirley Reed, and Shirley, and I, the first two weeks I didn’t hardly, apart from doing my work I didn’t say anything but not because I didn’t [unclear], I was just out, I don’t know what to do, you know, I was just doing my work but I thought, and I wasn’t that good at conversation at that particular time [unclear] we had lunch at our desk in those days, we bought some sandwiches and had lunch at our desks, she kicked the chair from underneath me, I was leaning back and she kicked the chair it was dangerous, she kicked the chair, I went down under the [unclear], well, everybody laughed and I laughed and from that time on I was married [?] [laughs]. I was in that department for about two years and I was still the only fellow. And I have great memories of that, of that two years because I was single, I went to so many birthday parties and twenty-first birthday parties, to weddings, I talked to get a few other girls, my wife was one of them and well, became one of them and I went to work for her in the department and I made [unclear] she came to England for four years and then came back and I married her then but I don’t, was I was then move to, I went again they sent me to Tasmania to open up the office in Tasmania in Launceston and then I was there for two years and then I, they did that in those days, don’t do it nowadays, then I was sent to, I was in Sydney for a while and then I was posted to Adelaide in 1960 and I, I was in charge of the collector branch there in Adelaide and we had two children there, Dave and Jane and that was another wonderful experience and then. I’ve got to say something about the air force, don’t let me forget.
AP: [unclear] of course.
DES: But, we had, Adelaide was a wonderful place to bring children up, I became a fan of the, I was a rugby person, rugby union, I became a fan of Australian rules when I first went to Adelaide I was, uhm, every Monday we had lunch with a group in the industry, in the life insurance industry and I didn’t have much to, I didn’t have much to talk about because I didn’t know anything about the Australian rules, for all they talked about were the teams that played at the weekend so I thought, oh, the best thing for me to do was to join those, if we were gonna have, [unclear], I’d better join them, better go out with them, so, they were members, a few of them were members of the Stirling football club, Aussie [?] rules club, and, no, The Double Blues, I can sing you the song if you want me to sing it, but they are The Double Blues and I became quite a rugby, an Australian rules fan, I’m not forgetting me rugby cause I’m a rugby person still but the, I used to, family, it was a family setup, we’d go out on a Saturday and we’d go, we’d have the radio would be on at the eleven o’clock match and then we’d go on, we’d have lunch or something then we’d go up to see the afternoon, the main game in the afternoon and then we’d finish there we’d go and buy some beer and some food and we'd watch the replay of that game and then we’d watch the replay of the main game in Melbourne, that was our Saturday but all the kids were all around at home that particular day and they’d come to the game in Adelaide, then they got so much free bottle they could pick up and the kids used to go and pick it up and make a lot of money on a Saturday [laughs] and but I became quite a fan of that we won the premiership four weeks running and that was my introduction to Australian rules, what a wonderful thing to be, but it’s a wonderful game and I love Australian rules and I do follow the Swans, uhm, but I don’t go out and see nowadays, I don’t go and see the rugby except on [unclear] occasions again I go and watch the rugby but. And in Tasmania I played rugby union and my [unclear] was the president of the North Tasmanian rugby union, we had three teams and I played in one of the teams and, uhm, that was in Launceston and, oh I forgot, New Zealand. I was in, I was two and a half years in New Zealand and I was there for the Springbok Tour in 1956 and I saw quite a bit of the football there, I used to go to the football in those days but New Zealand was another great place to be I was married there but I came back to Sydney, married Dorothy and then came back to New Zealand when she came back, she came back to work at the MLC for twelve months and, uh, and then we came back to, and I had a wonderful time because I have got relations there In New Zealand, so, I had places I had to go, so, I’ve seen every city in New Zealand except Gisborne and I don’t know why I’m saying that but, uhm, it was a wonderful place for me and it was a good place to, uhm, yeah it was a good, I was the, I joined the Kendala Lawn Tennis Club and I played tennis and I became the treasurer of the Kendala Lawn Tennis Club and so I fitted into the New Zealand mob, cause New Zealanders by and large as a group don’t like Australians, you know, but they do like, when they meet individually we’re all great, you know, we might talk about the Anzac business but they have really odd, that’s only my observation of course, they don’t’ really and I’m a, I regularly go to funerals in New Zealand at the moment but you know I’m a great fan of New Zealand and they as a group, they are jealous of Australians, I think, cause we’re so big.
AP: Ok, could be something.
DES: Yeah.
AP: Yeah, worked with a few kiwis, anyway. Uhm, yeah, you were gonna say something [unclear].
DES: I was gonna say, I do a lot of this, you know, I’m gonna plug in for the Bomber Command Commemorative Day and I’ve been involved with 463-467 Squadron Association, I’ve been involved with, uh, the Bomber Command Commemorative Day Foundation but that’s just a little aside. Uh, I’m doing this really because [clears throat] I owe the Air Force something. [sighs] When my, when memoires bring us [unclear] when I went away on the Air Force, I didn’t know anything, I was a real greenhorn, I was a green eighteen, didn’t know anything cause mum, you know, we were never allowed to play cards on a Sunday as I’d never, we never had cards in the house, mum didn’t, mum was a bit, she was an Anglican and uh, but she wasn’t, she wasn’t an [unclear] or anything either but a [unclear] drink she might have been, we never had but grog in the place, I tried to have [unclear] sherry sometimes [laughs] she went [mimics and astonished expression] when she heard, she was a great mother by, a great mother by the way but our mum, I’m trying to get the message over that I didn’t know a lot about the world until I went to the Air Force and the Air Force made me and I feel I gotta make some contribution to the Air Force and the same thing applies to the office MLC, that they to me were absolutely marvellous and I only retired from there about two years ago when I, I retired in ‘84, I went back to do a job for three months, to set up the database, helped set up the database in the MLC and now twenty five years later I’m still there with two, with another guy, it was five of us who stayed on for a while, but then, three had died and two of us are still left. But the MLC were, they, you know, I was on a, I tell you I was on a two and half percent mortgage for a time at the MLC, and they didn’t pay as much as probably some of the other companies but you know, I never, you felt you had a real, uhm, you know, they never sacked anybody except if you pinched money [laughs] and that, it remarks the office that didn’t happen but the MLC were wonderful to me, the Air Force and the MLC were wonderful to me and a lot of my friends are not jealous of me but they would have loved to have had a job like I’ve got, working with the MLC until I was just on ninety and, uhm, and I was doing every bit as good a job as I was as the people beside me that I was working, I was doing all computer work and this sort of thing. Oh, when I say computer work, it wasn’t on a main frame but it was, was all the stuff was all set up for us to do but I did some work on the telephones and that sort of thing but there was a lot of sixty plus, sixty five plus fellows that could, they some of the companies could, instead of putting them off, give them extra time, you know, keep them employed on a, say, five days, four days, three days, because, you know, I was bored stiff for a while when I first retired and when I got this [unclear], I was a bit two-minded about going back and doing this and that was one of the best decisions I have ever made and so there for that, this is not wartime setup but the MLC they could have paid when I was in the Air Force but I was getting more money in the Air Force than I was in the MLC [laughs] so I didn’t much from it but. Had I not been in the aircrew I would have probably cause we were paid extra in the aircrew, not a lot but we were paid extra. And, yeah, so that was, I have a lot to thank the Air Force for and that’s why I’m doing, I do this work now with volunteering with doing various things on Bomber Command Association and the 463 business, anything to do with the Air Force I like doing, you know, and I meet a lot of nice people.
AP: Good. Final question. Uhm, what do you think the legacy of Bomber Command is and how you want to see it remembered?
DES: Uh, well, I don’t think we will ever see another Bomber Command, in these days we will never see another Bomber Command because the days of the, uhm, what do we call them? The, you know, the things that fly on their own? You’ll never see another Lancaster bomber bombing places, you will see atom bombs or, not atom bombs, but these other sort of, what do you call the little?
AP: Drones. Yeah.
Des: The drones, you see, just here in one of our Squadrons here now, the 462 Squadron in Adelaide, they are mixed up in drones, you see, and so, you know, I’m very proud of, uhm, joining and taking part in Bomber Command. I think they did a magnificent job; they’d had a rough trot until 1942, when they weren’t hitting their targets, [unclear] as things got better, they did the, I’m fully happy with all what the Bomber Command did. I think the world of Air Marshal Harris and I get, I get annoyed sometimes when people who want to criticize him. You know, every year I get a message from Melbourne about Dresden [laughs], which, you know, which annoys me, more than anything else, because Dresden deserved what they got, you know, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, London, Liverpool, Coventry, they all got a similar treatment and I don’t think, you know, there was a lot about Dresden that, and I’m sorry I brought that up but we know that there were a lot of people operating in Dresden which were military, they were hidden, slightly like the people today are putting, uh, children and some of these in where real targets are and there were definitely a lot of things in Dresden that deserved to be bombed and, you know, we’re at war, we had to do our best to do that but I’m quite proud of what we did in Bomber Command and I’m very, I think I finished my speech at the reflections at the Bomber Command thing in Canberra a few years ago and I was very proud and fine with Bomber Command and but I don’t think we will see another Bomber Command type of people, there will never be a group like us ever again, so I don’t’ think there is any future, but it will be done by the drones, what it’s gotta be done I think will be done by the drones and then that creates a bit of loss of life to civilians but I’m afraid when you are fighting a war it’s just, you know, it’s just the way it goes. Uhm, I don’t know, of [unclear].
AP: How do you want to see it remembered?
DES: How will I remember it?
AP: Yeah, how do you want to see it remembered, how do you want Bomber Command to be remembered.
DES: Oh, [unclear], oh, I just like the people here today to and that’s what we’re in the business with the Bomber Command Commemoration Day Foundation, we want the children of our people to carry on and thank the people of, like the 5000 who died, not us particularly but, ah yeah, the 5000 Australian airmen we hope you’ll remember them, you might forget them, as I hope you won’t forget the Vietnam people and the people who went to Korea and the people who went to [unclear]. We do remember them and I pray that they remember them on Anzac Day, uhm, but I think that, uhm, I would like to and I am amazed at, uh, the young people today that we have come into their [unclear] up to about four or five years ago and never heard of some of the things of their fathers and grandfathers had done. And I’m amazed by the number of people who came out of the woodwork to find out more about now and it’s up to us now, cause we are talking here now, it’s up to us to make sure that we get the message out to the younger people that their living today because of the sacrifice that the people made, that died over in the Bomber Command raids and that sort of thing, that they would be, uhm, might be leading a different sort of life, that they, uh, if it hadn’t been for the actions and the deeds of those who fought in Bomber Command. But I’d like them to think nicely of us and I think most of them do. I get, not amazed, but I’m really interested and pray that today for instance I’ve been talking to people that were involved and had involvements, you know, a lot of them didn’t know to a certain extent what things we’d done and how we’d helped shorten the war and that sort of thing, cause we did really and I suppose dropping the atom bomb bought us to and I’ve got no objections to the atom bomb being dropped either, it probably saved a lot of lives too. It’s a terrible thing but once, if I can say again, I’m amazed at the young people that are so interested and yet there are some families that they are not interested at all, not interested at all and parts of families, including my own, now, some of mine are not that interested, my son is and but, and I think [unclear] but one of my grandchildren is very interested. It’s on the other side but that’s their decision, we probably haven’t got the message over to them which is [unclear] and I am disappointed when I speak to some of my friends who don’t want to talk about it, it’s not boasting about these [unclear], people should know that these sort of things went on, that these, because of their actions, they’ve had fifty, sixty, seventy years of freedom here, even in Australia which might never have happened if those people hadn’t made the sacrifices that they did and volunteered and don’t forget, all the aircrew in Australia were volunteers, there was no, no one was conscripted, they were all volunteers. Yeah.
AP: Oh well, that’s the end of my questions. So.
DES: Well, that’s good. Yeah.
AP: You’ve done very well.
DES: [unclear] How long was that?
AP: That was one hour forty two.
DES: That was alright, well, that was [unclear]
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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ASouthwellDE160424
Title
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Interview with Don Southwell
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:42:57 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Adam Purcell
Date
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2016-04-24
Description
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Don Southwell grew up in Australia and worked for RKO Radio Pictures and as an Air Raid Precautions Warden before volunteering for the Royal Air Force. After training in Australia and Canada, he flew nine operations as a navigator with 463 Squadron from RAF Waddington. He describes crewing up and everyday military life at the station, and gives accounts of his operations and being chased by Me 262s over Hamburg. He remembers ferrying liberated prisoners of war as part of Operation Exodus.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Canada
Czech Republic
Germany
Great Britain
New South Wales
Alberta--Edmonton
Czech Republic--Plzeň
England--Brighton
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Essen
Germany--Leipzig
New South Wales--Sydney
California--San Francisco
United States
California
Alberta
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Sussex
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
29 OTU
463 Squadron
467 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
fear
Lancaster
Me 262
memorial
mess
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Waddington
RAF West Freugh
Stirling
superstition
training
Wellington
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cothliff, Ken
Ken Cothliff
K Cothliff
Description
An account of the resource
486 items in 12 sub-collections. The collection concerns Ken Cothliff's research on 6 Group Bomber Command and contains an interview with Adolf Galland, documents and photographs. Sub-collections include information on 427 Squadron, 429 Squadrons, Gerry Philbin, Jim Moffat, Reg Lane, Robert Mitchell, Steve Puskas and logs from RAF Tholthorpe.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ken Cothliff and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-20
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Cothliff, K
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Günther Rall
Description
An account of the resource
Gunther Rall was raised in Stuttgart and enjoyed outdoor and sporting activities as a youngster and he was also a Boy Scout. He became a cadet in the army, and joined the 13th Infantry Regiment. He met a friend in the air force, and decided it was the service for him. He joined the Luftwaffe in 1938, and he decided he wanted to be fighter pilot. He scored his first aerial victory in 1940 during the Battle of France, shooting down a Curtiss P36 Hawk. During the combat he also sustained damage to his aeroplane realising how dangerous air combat can be. He also took part in the Battle of Britain flying against convoys and supporting Ju 87 Stukas, and facing Spitfire and Hurricane fighters of the RAF. He was posted to Romania flying the Bf 109F and took part in support of the German invasion of Crete, and the beginning of Operation Barbarossa, the attack against Russia, shooting down Russian bombers. Flying as a squadron commander with Jagdgeswader 52, in support of Stuka dive bombers he became an ace. In one combat with the Russian air force, he cut off the right wing of his opponent with his propeller, damaging his own aircraft, but made it back to friendly territory. During the attack against the Russians he experienced harsh weather conditions, and relied on re supply by the few Ju 52 transport aircraft available. In 1943 he received the award of Oak Leaves and Swords to his Knights Cross and Iron Cross from Adolf Hitler, and after his meeting left depressed, and with a feeling that the war was lost. In 1944 he became commander of Jagdgeswader 11 flying in defence of the Reich, mainly in daylight against the American 8TH Air Force. During his career he was able to fly captured aircraft such as the P 51 Mustang, and Spitfire, he also flew the Me 262 jet fighter. After the war he became a prisoner, and was flown to England where he met some of his former enemy fighter pilots, and particularly remembers Wing Commander Robert S Tuck. In the 1950s he joined the post war Luftwaffe and became project officer in the procurement of the F104 Starfighter aircraft. In later life he was invited to meet some Russian fighter pilots, and veterans at their base in Kubinka, and was treated to the finest foods, and drank many toasts. This item is available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ken Cothliff
David Tappin
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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01:39:16 audio recording
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is a transcription of a video interview taped by a third party. It is available here as derivative work under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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ARallG[Date]-01
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1943
1944
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
Russia (Federation)
France--Marseille
Germany--Stuttgart
Black Sea
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Requires
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KC: So, it’s just a general, and then we’ll finish off with a little bit about what you did in NATO?
GR: Yeah.
KC: So, it’s a sort of —
DT: I think we ended up in the right place.
KC: Yeah.
DT: Are we ready to go?
KC: Are you happy David?
Other: Yes. I’m happy. Ok chaps, and if you can keep looking this way all the time just try to ignore the cameras here.
GR: I can guarantee.
Other: Ok. Off you go, chaps.
DT: Generalleutnant Gunther Rall, on behalf of everyone at the Yorkshire Air Museum may we welcome you to Yorkshire?
GR: Thank you.
DT: We are delighted to see you, sir.
GR: Thank you. It’s my pleasure to be here.
DT: If we may ask you a few questions about your family background.
GR: Yeah.
DT: Before we go on to the aviation.
GR: Ok.
DT: What exactly is your family background?
GR: I was born in the Black Forest but I was raised in Stuttgart and I actually, Stuttgart, consider to be my home town. I went to school and all the time as a young boy I had in Stuttgart and my father was a merchant. My mother was an excellent housewife in those days and I have a sister. The dominating activities during my youth was the, I was a member of the Boy Scouts, the Christian Boy Scouts and this really dominated all the activities. I was an outdoor boy which in those days we didn’t have these luxury camps, you know. We, we built our own tents and we were out. This was the one activity and the next one besides the school [laughs] I was, I was at school very well and there was, no problems. Sometimes better, sometimes less but anyhow, it wasn’t a problem. And the second activity was sport. I was an enthusiastic sportsman at athletics. A hundred metres up to four hundred metres. The, how do you call it? Long jumping and javelin throwing and this type and I was very successful as a youth and made some small championships in small circles. But anyhow, this was a dominating factor in my youth and after the elementary school I went to the Gymnasium. What we call Gymnasium, Humanistic Gymnasium, and I learned Latin and Greek. The old type of science. Latin. Greek. History. This was the predominant, the faculties at school.
DT: Do you have any brothers or sisters?
GR: I have a sister. I have a sister. She’s still alive. She lives in Stuttgart. She’s a widow but she has grandchildren and there’s a very harmonised family.
DT: So, is your, is your wife still alive?
GR: No, unfortunately not. My wife, she was a doctor. She was a Viennese and I get acquainted with her when I was in a full body cast when I was injured in Russia, we maybe we touch this later, and finally ended up in Vienna in the hospital for special treatment. There was a very famous professor and I was partially paralysed on the right side by breaking my back in three places, and my station doctor became my wife.
DT: When did you —
Other: Stop there a second. I’ll just close this door. There are people coming down the stairs.
[pause]
KC: General Rall would you perhaps just, if you are finished would you just move your finger.
GR: Yeah.
DT: Ok. Just something like that.
GR: So, that you can then start your —
DT: Yeah. Ok. Ok Darren?
Other: Yes.
DT: When did you first become interested in aviation?
GR: It was quite late. My wish was to become an officer, and first of all I wanted to get into the Navy but it was so difficult in those days. It was a tremendous selection so I thought do what you hope you get and I made my application to become an officer cadet in the Army which happened, and I became a cadet in the Infantry Regiment 13 near Stuttgart, a very famous old regiment and I made my career in the Army Officer School. And after the promotion to lieutenant then I changed to the Air Force because when I was in the Officer’s School in Dresden, I had a friend. He was in the Officer’s School in the, in the Air Force which was also in Dresden, and every Saturday we met and he told me where he was. He was in Hamburg, he was in Munich, flying. I said what the hell. I was laying on the ground and grubbing around in the, on a, on a training camp. A training field. I was challenged by this and think that’s a wonderful life and I wanted to become a flyer. This made my decision.
DT: When did you join the Luftwaffe?
GR: I joined the Luftwaffe in 1938.
DT: Was it your wish at that time to be a fighter pilot?
GR: Yes. Right from the beginning. I think according to my temperament I wanted to be a fighter pilot. I loved all the acrobatics. I was single crew flying and I, I wouldn’t have pleasure in just sitting in a big cockpit with a crew and dropping bombs. I wanted to be a fighter pilot.
DT: I knew an old gentleman who flew in the First World War with a Sopwith Camel who said that the, all the fighter pilots were the madmen and all the bomber pilots were the intelligent sane men.
GR: Ok. Let them think that way [laughs] I was happy to be a fighter pilot whether intelligent or not. I didn’t care.
DT: Did you have any boyhood heroes? Aviation heroes.
GR: I mean in those days certainly, Richthofen, Boelke. These were heroes but they were far away, unreachable, you know. They were, it was a challenge to be like he. He was too far out of my imagination.
DT: Would you describe to us your first aerial victory?
GR: The first air victory was over France. Way, you know, there was when the war against France was declared there was about six months, we had nothing. The French called it drole de guerre and when the invasion, the German invasion started, attacks started we had to escort a reconnaissance plane back from France from a mission and the rendezvous point was near the North Sea. Metz, in this area at six thousand metres and we took off from Trier which was an airfield right to the front, to the frontier and we saw the, the reconnaissance plane coming back but I also spotted ten or twelve dots behind. Far away, but pretty soon I saw these were fighters chasing that Heinkel 111. We approached them very rapidly and luckily the Heinkel was on the level, was not anymore of interest to the, to the fighters on both sides so we were in the, we were in a, in a very hectic dogfight. It was the first time I ran into the enemy and I saw the [cook house], and everybody was very, very excited. I led the second element in the squadron. I jumped down. I’d just, French P-36s. They flew the P36. Curtiss P36 just was ahead of me and was a tremendous curving and turns, rapid turns. It was the first time that I recognised if I gain a very rough turn just by gravity the leading air slots come out on the outer wing which causes a snap and they give me a, one warning of the characteristic of this aeroplane so I released the stick a little bit and everything was ok, and I give a burst and the poor guy got on flames but luckily could bale out. This was my first victory. At the same time, I heard a hell of a noise in my aeroplane and I got shot at and had a lot of holes. So, it gave me a tremendous self-confidence. I was a victor. But also, a warning because I was hit several times.
DT: How did the air fighting during the Battle of Britain compare to the Battle of France?
GR: You know, in France the, the Air Force was, the effect of the Air Force was very poor. The French in, in their planning they put priority on the Army and the Air Force was inferior in numbers and in quality. Quality as far as equipment is concerned. I mean they had very courageous pilots no doubt but it didn’t play that role as the German Air Force played in the battle against France, you know. The Air Force was a tactical Air Force with tremendous power, Ju87 dive bombers with a very effective support for the German Army. Against the British it was a different situation. The difference was that the British came with their Spitfires, with their Hurricanes. Very good equipment. In some areas superior to the 109. They were fighting over their own territory and this makes a hell of a difference. If they had to bail out, the next day they could fly another mission with another aeroplane. We were, we had the wrong tactics I must say. I just speak for my own group. We were a young group, inexperienced and the group was established three or four months before that so there was not an experienced fighter group, and we had to fly against convoys in the British Channel escorting Ju87 and the order was direct escort. Close escort. So, we gave up our, our superiority in speed. We had to reduce the speed to the Ju87 which was a deadly tactic because the Spitfires and Hurricanes just waited upstairs and came down, shot off and we had a lot of losses in a very short time.
DT: Was there a great deal of aerial fighting in the battles for Crete and the Balkans?
GR: You know the, when we came to Greece the battle was gone already and was decided and we went down to the Peloponnese for the attack to, to Crete Island and over Crete Island there was not very much air activities. It was more air to ground and, you know there were a lot mistakes from the German side. They dropped the troops at too high altitude so that means they were hanging from their parachutes for too long time and they were shot at by the New Zealanders on the ground. And then the gliders who came over there they crashed in the, in the olive, in these olive trees, and the terrain was very rough and was, there were hills. So, there were a lot of losses just by, at the landing when the, when they started. And we had to support the Army by ground attacks but it was very difficult because they dropped the, the weapons in containers, and they were, they were in a flag of swastika, with swastika and they dropped it and they just landed by the New Zealanders and they laid out the flag so we couldn’t know who is who. This was our problem.
DT: What were your thoughts when you realised that Operation Barbarossa was about to commence, with the situation on the western front still unresolved?
GR: You know, there was, we were a little bit shocked because it was against every logic. A two front war was a very deadly operation. The operation hadn’t been finished in the west and we started in the east with a tremendous enemy and with a tremendous land space to cover and we all remember the Napoleon. His fate. And we couldn’t believe it at the beginning until two weeks before we started and then it was a fact.
DT: Can you recall the first week of Operation Barbarossa?
GR: Yes. I was down in Romania, just shortly before we came back from Crete Island and we got new aeroplanes. The F 109. F was a brilliant aeroplane and we loved it. The first one with the round wing tips, and with the DB 603, and in the evening, I got the order to go with my squadron. Fly with my squadron, to Mamaia because the Russian had attacked the, the harbour of Constanta on the Black Sea and the harbour had a tremendous importance because it was an oil harbour to ship the oil and there were refineries also. So, I flew with my squadron down to Mamaia, to the beach of the Black Sea but there was nothing on that airfield. Just an empty hangar. That was it. No radar. No telephone. No. No nothing. So, I, I, the very night Ju52 came with barrels of fuel so with a hand pump we filled our aircraft and right from dawn in the morning I sent out a patrol. Two ship patrol over the ocean because if the Russians attacked, they had to come to Constanta. It was the only target. They flew patrol in six thousand metres about twenty kilometres out to the Black Sea and the whole Romanian squadron was on cockpit alert. And when they gave the signal they come, we scrambled and we were very successful. We also, we always could catch them before they reached the coast and we shot down quite a number of DB3 two engine bombers. They came without any fighter escort and this was for them a very deadly operation. And after one week with heavy losses they stopped and they never came back.
DT: What was your rank at the time of Operation Barbarossa when it began? And were you still with the same Jagdgeshwader that you were with in the west?
GR: Yes. I had the same squadron, you know. I became squadron leader in the British Channel. Due to the losses of our senior officers and the commanders were, were shot down so I became a squadron commander and I was a squadron commander for three and a half years of the 8 Squadron in the Wing 52, and at that time I was first lieutenant and squadron commander.
DT: Did you think that victory was possible in the east in 1941 or did you think it was a foolhardy episode?
GR: You know, if you start, if you go to war you always think you’ll win. Otherwise, you forget it. But pretty soon you have doubts, and we had doubts when we saw these masses. But at the beginning I must give in, there were, the Russians had tremendous losses, particularly the Air Force and the, our opponents on the other side on the run in they were not qualified. They had obsolete equipment, they had not a very good training, and they had very bad tactics so they had tremendous losses. This gave us some feeling of security.
DT: How did the Russian tactics then compare directly with the Luftwaffe’s tactics? What was the difference in the way they operated?
GR: You know, the Russian Air Force was under the command of the Army so it was a supporting Air Force. They say they also had a strategic fleet but they never showed up. Not at least in our area and I flew for quite a time. I never saw a strategic bomber from the Russians. The main bulk of the Air Force was the ground supporters. It was too heavily armed to, to the ground, and always escorted by fighters. This was the main operation. They supported their Army activities and actions continuously, and we flew the front line in the areas of priority and you always run into a bulk of EL2 escorted by fighters.
DT: How did you cope with that first dreadful winter?
GR: You know nobody was prepared for such an extreme winter situation. Particularly with the, with the temperature. We went down to minus forty centigrade, unprepared. Not technically prepared for our aircraft. You know, it was very, very difficult to start the engine in the morning which caused that we sometimes we had open fires underneath the aircraft just to heat it up. On the other hand, also our mechanics and our pilots were not prepared for this. We didn’t have the suit for that. You know, the overalls. It took time to get them over there. Can you imagine what it means for a mechanic to work on an engine without gloves at a temperature of minus forty degrees? This is a problem
DT: Yes. Which victory in Russia do you recall most vividly?
GR: You know, the most dramatic one was my mid-air collision. It was a victory but I didn’t know that it was going to be a victory. It was the day of the Pocket Battle of Kursk. In the late afternoon in the east was a tremendous cumulus cloud. In the west was the sun and the cumulus cloud was lit, you know, bright and I flew from west to east and spotted two dots ahead of me far away and I approached them with my adjutant. We flew, we had a two-ship formation and when I came closer, I saw two aircraft with a big radial engine. I knew that at that time for these tremendous operations in the, in the Kursk battle a German F-190 unit was transferred to this area. A friend of mine was the leader of that. I never have seen a 190 in the air before. I saw it in a, on a picture but not, there was no, so when I approached, I was not sure if this now was 190 or was a La 5, because against this white cumulus you only could see the silhouette, not the colours. So, I approached with high speed. I pulled up to the side and looked down and saw green, red star so I couldn’t turn away otherwise I would have been chased. So, I turned again back to the sky, down. I gave him a full burst which hit him. Pulled up my aeroplane and got in a high- speed stall and just crashed and slipped over him, and I never forget this big bang and I cut off his right wing with my propeller, slipped away and he cut off my body of the aeroplane with his propeller. But he couldn’t recover because he got in a spin. Without, without one wing you cannot recover. I had a tremendous vibration in my aeroplane and it was over Russian territory. I want to get to the German lines and it was about four thousand metres altitude and the aircraft was in a tremendous vibration. I was always looking for the right RPM setting to reduce this but it didn’t happen. But I made it back to the German lines. I lowered the gear. I was very, very cautious in making a turn because I thought maybe the, the tail comes off and breaks off by any G load on that. I landed and I saw that I had a split underneath for about one metre. He cut off that. I was very lucky. It was a victory [laughs] and it was a dramatic one.
Other: Can we just —
KC: We’re getting a bit of vibration from the —
DT: We’re picking up a bit of noise from your shoes against the legs of the table General.
GR: I see.
KC: Just. Yeah. Ok. Yes. Yeah.
Other: Ok chaps.
KC: Ok?
Other: Yeah.
DT: Which of the battles in the Soviet do you consider to be the most significant?
GR: You know, there are three battles, and I refer to the Russians themselves and they are, they are two. The first, the German didn’t reach the objective in the first year. The plan was to reach a line Astrakhan [Hungaris]. We couldn’t make it because we were late. The winter came and we couldn’t even make Moscow. The winter stopped us and the Russians stopped us in front of Moscow. That was number one. Number two was Stalingrad. Stalingrad was a turning point and we lost the Sixth Army which was a tremendous loss by wrong planning and by wrong orders directed from Hitler, you know. He never allowed a retreat of the Sixth Army. Stay where you are. And it happened. And the third battle was 1943. June. July. The Battle of Kursk where the Russians really knocked out the German tank force, and the German tank force what they say would have been a very serious part during the invasion, but it didn’t exist in that numbers any more. From the Russian side of this this made the invasion possible.
DT: Can you tell us something about Hans Rudel and Erich Hartmann? Rudel the Stuka pilot, and Hartmann the fighter pilot both as air fighter, and as people.
GR: I flew many, many escorts for Rudel and Rudel was a unique Stuka pilot. Very fanatic. He flew three or four missions a day and he also invented the tactics to kill the tanks, you know. He had these tremendous guns in his undercarriage and over the time he knocked out five hundred tanks. That’s a tank army by one man. Later on, I was, after the war I was together with Rudel in Tangmere as a prisoner of war and we were in the same room so we became very close. We had different opinions. It doesn’t mean that he was a Stuka pilot, I was a fighter pilot but I respected this man tremendously for his dedication. For his courage. Bubi Hartmann came to me 1941 or ’42, to the Caucasus as a very young lieutenant and fighter pilot. It, it took some time to adjust him to the unit and all of a sudden, he became successful, developed his own tactics and had a, developed also a certain charisma in his squadron. But his, his ability was more or less to be a single fighter pilot. His own success Certainly he raised the success of his own squadron. Bubi had a very bad fate and I have to tell this which characterises the man. Being the number one pilot very well known to the Russians. When the Armistice came Bubi Hartmann was on the Eastern Front and he got the order from higher headquarters to fly to the west. Not to come to, become a Russian prisoner. Bubi refused. Bubi said, ‘No. I share the fate of my Wing.’ And he stayed with them and he became a prisoner of war, and had a very, very hard time for ten years in Russia which almost broke his personality. But he was a very brave man. No doubt.
DT: Was he popular as a man in the squadron?
GR: Oh yeah. Oh Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah.
DT: And was Rudel. Rudel was a loner, was he? Did he sort of work hard?
GR: I can’t tell how he was in the squadron, you know. I only know him as a person and what he did was extraordinary.
DT: Who do you consider to be the best German fighter ace of all? Who do you consider?
GR: I mean, the most talented and the most, dare I say one unique judgment, this is Marseille. Marseille is a great fighter. He was a great fighter pilot. He was. You can dispute about him as a soldier. He was a, he was a unique character. Very intelligent, with some civilian attitude but once he became a leader responsible for a school, he was a tremendous good leader and he has the benefit to have a very father type in command which was [unclear]. He really held his hand over Marseille and Marseille developed his own tactics which were tailored for him. You never can, as a proven, as a norm because everybody who would fly like Marseille would be killed. He’d make acrobatics. He’d be running to the circle of the Spitfires and he was outstanding and he was lucky for a certain time until his bad fate.
DT: Can you give a direct comparison flying the Messerschmitt 109 and the Fokke Wulf 190 and really was the TA15 —
Other: Sorry, we should change the tapes now.
DT: Right. Ok.
[recording paused]
DT: Ok.
Other: Right. When, when everybody’s set, we’re ok. Ready.
DT: Ok. General, can you give us a direct comparison between flying the Messerschmitt 109 and the Fokke Wulf 190? And was the later mark of the Fokke Wulf 190 the Dora or the TA152 as it was sometimes called better than the Messerschmitt 109 G Gustav?
GR: That’s a very difficult question. I haven’t flown all these types. I flew the 109, all the marks and the Fokke Wulf and some, some flights with a long nosed but always, I always said the Fokke Wulf to me it’s a sabre and the 109, it’s a florette, and each aircraft had its advantages and disadvantages. The Fokke Wulf was a rugged aircraft. A good undercarriage, a good adjustment of weapons, that is four guns and it was like a shower. The 109 was more sensitive. This aircraft, you know. It had a very touchy undercarriage. It had slots and I only had three weapons. One through the, what do you call it? Through the propeller. And two guns. One cannon. Two guns. Now, this is the difference and I figured out that all these victories in one day, the serious was most cases started with the Fokke Wulf, not with a 104 err not with a 109. The long nosed I don’t have this experience. Certainly, the long nosed Fokke Wulf for [unclear] with the injection engine was supposed to be better but it came late and never came in operation in considerable numbers so I cannot give you exact comparison versus the 109.
KC: It was reputed that at the end —
GR: Yeah.
KC: The, the Fokke Wulf was.
GR: Sure.
KC: An improvement over the Gustav.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
KC: General, what were, living conditions like on the Eastern Front?
GR: It was very different, you know. In the north there was a very static wall and they were in front of Leningrad for three years. We in the south, I mean south, let’s say from Kiev, well down to the Caucasus Mountains was a fast- moving wall. Forward and back, forward and backwards and it raised tremendous problems, logistic problems particularly in the, when we had the weather season when we had mud on the road or in winter when we got a lot of snow. For the pilot himself and for the crew itself it was a life like, like gypsies, you know. We were staying for maybe for one week on a lawn selected from the air. It was not a prepared airfield. Living in tents from April ‘til October. Then we dug into the ground to get some cover from the, from the from snow and, and from the temperatures. So, this was a very different situation in the south. There was not a solid front line also, you know. You were always in the open and one day my Group, I was in the back my Group were rolled over by tanks also. By Russian tanks. It could happen. So, this was a quite different situation to the situation to the air warfare in the north or in the west.
DT: Who do you consider to be the most aggressive air fighter on the eastern front?
GR: You mean the person?
DT: Yes. For —
GR: What type?
DT: Aggressive, straight in and attack type of fighter, in the east.
GR: From the, from the Russians?
No. From, from the Luftwaffe’s point of view.
GR: Oh, I can’t tell you this, I think. I think as far as I remember in my group, you know we had a lot of very aggressive fighters [unclear] Krupinski, Bubi Hartmann, these were all very aggressive fighters and I’m sure that in other Wings they had the same calibre.
DT: Can you recall the day when Bully Lang destroyed eighteen Russian aircraft in one day?
GR: Who was it?
DT: Lang.
GR: Ah, Lang. No. I didn’t have any contact with him. I knew Emil Lang before the war. He was a great athlete. Eight hundred metre runners. He was a very good runner and I knew him from there but I never was in the same theatre with Lang. Lang was in the invasion front and he got killed there. And at that time, I was over Germany or in the hospital.
DT: During 1944 Adolf Hitler personally awarded you the Oak Leaves and Swords to your Knight’s Cross.
GR: ’43.
DT: 1943.
GR: ’43.
DT: Shall I ask that again?
Other: Yes. Please.
DT: During 1943 Adolf Hitler personally awarded you the Oak Leaves and Swords to your Knight’s Cross and the Iron Cross. Can you recall these occasions and can you recall what he said to you?
GR: Yes. You know, I got the first what was it, the first report to Hitler was 1942 when we were in front of Stalingrad, in front of El Alamein, and there was a very euphoristic mood in the headquarter because everybody thought we might get it in the next two weeks. And at that time Hitler talked to us. We were four, Captain Steinhoff and [unclear] In fact, nine months later, this was ’43 I had to report again. And you know, it was not only me but from the oak leaves onwards was what handed over the medal by Hitler himself, and after the handing over ceremony we were sitting around the fireplace and he developed his ideas. In ‘43 this was quite a different Hitler. What happened in the meantime between the first and the second visit to the headquarter was that we lost Stalingrad, we lost the Sixth Army, and all his forecasts were [laughs] not realised, and we were on the retreat in North Africa and this was a Hitler who never spoke. In fact, he spoke in mystery. In deep valley, and dark and we have to get through and silver strip on the horizon, and this junk, you know. Not substantial. And it was very, I left the headquarter very depressed like this, and we are not going to win the war.
DT: Do you think that Hitler himself appreciated that victory was impossible at that time?
GR: That’s very hard to say, you know. There’s [laughs] I’m not [pause] Hitler was a psychopath and how, what his ideas were, you can hardly analyse. You know, how can you analyse a man who says in the very last days of war if the German nation is not worth to win the war then it’s worth to get disappeared. Out. I mean one man claims the right to, to give the fate to a whole nation.
[pause]
DT: We understand that Hitler had a form of Parkinson’s disease which affected his, did you think this affected, can I ask that again, Dave?
Other: Yes.
DT: Is it correct that Hitler had some form of Parkinson’s disease and if so, could this have, affected his judgement in crucial areas?
GR: You should ask a doctor. A medical doctor. I cannot tell. I cannot give you an answer. The only thing I can say, the third time I had to report to headquarter was the 10th of January 1944, and all the, the bearer of the Oak Leaf with Swords had to report there to get the certificate, the [unclear] certificates. There was Galland, [unclear] a lot of good outstanding fighter pilots who got killed later on were assembled there and we sat around at lunch and I saw what Hitler, his medicine. It was a battery of [unclear] with around his, his table setting, and I saw my God how much medicine he has to take, but I couldn’t certainly not realise that he had a Parkinson with it. So then, this was recognised after the 20th of July when, after the explosion in his headquarters. He said that Hitler had shivers in his hands. I couldn’t make them like this.
DT: During operation Barbarossa how were the [Wehrmacht] and the Luftwaffe supplied during the critical periods of the autumn and winter?
GR: How do you mean?
DT: Shall I just explain quickly Dave?
GR: Yeah.
DT: Logistically, how did you get the, how did you move equipment?
GR: Yeah. You know —
DT: Can I ask the question again, general?
GR: No, I know.
DT: Right.
GR: This was a very difficult problem, the logistic problems of supply because there was a very, very poor road system and from fall onwards it was mud. We couldn’t move very much our trucks, heavy trucks. And in winter this was snow and it was ice and it was frozen. So, we sent back all our heavy trucks back to the west. We couldn’t use them which means we strictly depend on air transport, Ju52. But the problem was there was a lack. We had only few Ju52 available because in the Battle of Crete there were tremendous losses in Ju52 which never recovered. So, we got our support and supply by air, by Ju52. We strictly depend on them.
DT: Was the large powered glider the Messerschmitt 323 Gigant, was this a successful aeroplane during the Soviet campaign?
GR: You know, I don’t know. It never showed up in the front line. It was too big and too manoeuvrable, and too vulnerable. I flew it back from, from, when I had to report in the, back home. I flew back with, with this aircraft but from an airport which was too the west. It didn’t show up in the front area.
DT: Is it correct that when you left the Eastern Front in 1944 you were at that time the world’s leading fighter ace?
GR: It could be. It could be. I think I was. Is there a number 2? You know we always, we were equal, always, even with Nowotny. Nowotny was in the middle section of Russia and I was in the south and one time I was ahead, and he was ahead. Exactly I can’t tell you the situation when I came to the, to the home defence.
DT: Were you conscious of a rivalry between yourselves to be the leading ace?
GR: Oh, this was a friendly rivalry, you know. It was not a, I respected Nowotny. He was a very very fine character and I met him several times, and I respected him and I liked him very much.
DT: A very similar situation to the First World War.
GR: Yeah.
DT: In 1918 with Udet and Loewenhardt.
GR: Yeah.
DT: They, they battled for the —
GR: Sure.
DT: To be the leading ace.
GR: Sure. Ok. You are always you know as a young pilot you were eager to be successful but not to, you are, I was also happy when he was successful.
DT: Yes.
GR: Yeah. There was no jealousy.
DT: So, when you left Bubi Hartman was the third ranked ace.
GR: Yeah.
DT: Behind you and Nowotny.
GR: Yeah. Yeah. Bubi Hartman came up much later, you know, I was the leading when I was shot down and lost my thumb. That time. And I think at that time Nowotny was, he flew the 262 then. And I don’t know whether he was already killed or still alive, but anyhow when I was shot down and lost my thumb I had to go into hospital. At that time, I was the number one and it took three months and when I was in hospital that Bubi Hartmann came up. Bubi Hartmann and Barkhorn.
DT: And at the end of the war that was the position. Hartmann. Barkhorn. Rall.
GR: Right. Right. That was it.
DT: Batz, number four.
GR: Yes. I don’t know. Yeah.
DT: Wilhelm Batz.
GR: Yeah.
DT: When you left the Eastern Front and transferred to the west you took over command of Jagdgeshwader 11.
GR: No. For a Group.
DT: Oh sorry.
GR: The 2nd Group.
DT: How did the conditions in air fighting compare in the west to conditions on the Eastern Front?
GR: There was a completely different situation. First of all, the, the air warfare over Germany was a, was a air warfare on its’ own right. Not in relation to the Army. In Russia that was always supporting the Army. Over Germany air warfare on its own right with highly capable experienced pilots and very good equipment in numbers. In numbers. In quantities. This was our problem when I took over the Group. The situation was that every mission we flew against the, we flew in daylight so in most cases against the Americans from the Eighth Air Force in, in south England. They came over escorted by long range fighters in numbers. And the average loss rate was fifty percent which every pilot knew. Every second pilot would not return.
DT: When you, when you first went into action in the west had the P51 been introduced? Had it replaced the P47?
GR: Both were there. The P47 and the P51 but P47 was in a process of be pulled out and replaced by P51, and I had the privilege before I took over to [pause] no after that. After that I had the privilege to fly the P51 and the P47, and I could see the difference to the 109 for instance you know, in the flight manoeuvrability and all this, speed it was absolutely adequate but the big advantage was the endurance. They flew for seven and a half hours and we flew for one and a half hours. That was a big difference.
DT: How, how was the P47 as a dogfighter?
GR: A dogfight it has its benefits. I feel, you know climbing in a dog fight we feel superior. In a dive he was much faster. The structural strength was much higher than in the 109, you know. They could stand up to fourteen hundred kilometres and the 109 was limited up to a thousand kilometres. So, the rule was don’t dive away from a P47 because it’s faster and it had a bit better structure than a 109. But you cannot always select what you want. You are forced to some even illogic manoeuvres.
DT: I understand that a Thunderbolt pilot removed part of your anatomy during 1944.
GR: Yeah [laughs] He became a friend of mine which was very unusual. It was the 12th of May ‘44 and I run into Thunderbolts, and there was a dogfight and there was lucky. I got two Thunderbolts. Big flames because they were full of fuel and as the leader pulled away and made escape manoeuvres, rolls and what the hell and dive from me his second element spotted me and they chased me to the dead end, you know. They shot off my thumb, shot off the engine, cooler. It was bang, bang, bang in the aircraft and I was in a dive which was certainly I knew that I cannot make it against four P47 flying line abreast and chasing me. What can I do? When I turned to the left, I turn in the guns, I turn to the right I turn in the guns. So, I went down to tree top level, pulled up. I wanted to get out of the aeroplane. They wanted to go back to England. So, I was in that situation had a better condition. Just dropped out of the aeroplane, and pulled my parachute and after freefall of about five, eight hundred metres and the parachute opened and then I came down. Much later, years later by studying all the documents they identified this was the P47 Group, was Hub Zemke’s Wolf Pack and we became friends.
DT: Is Zemke still alive?
GR: No. Unfortunately, he died two years ago. He lived in California.
DT: How would you compare the American bomber commanders Ira Eaker, and Jimmy Doolittle with their tactics?
GR: I can’t. I wouldn’t dare to give a judgement over this. I had the privilege to visit Jimmy Doolittle when he was retired in his home in Pebble Beach in California. He was a great, great man but in those days ninety years old, over ninety years old. He was beyond of daily problems you know, and he was a very graceful man, and we are sitting there and together with Galland, with Peter Townsend was a group of us and it was a great privilege to meet him before he passed away.
DT: Did you know that the American bomber crews called him something like Doolittle the murderer because he released the fighters on the free chase?
GR: Yeah.
DT: Rather than, than fly close escort to the bombers.
GR: No.
DT: At first.
GR: No. I don’t know that.
DT: They realised later.
GR: Yeah.
DT: That it worked.
GR: It worked. It was our problem, you know. The direct escort of give the fighter the freedom to sweep the airspace clean, and use his own tactics and apply his own superiorities where, in which area he ever could.
KC: Did you use the Messerschmitt 109 with the rocket attachments underneath?
GR: No.
KC: Not at all.
GR: No.
DT: Ok. Just distracted me a bit.
[pause]
DT: Were you greatly outnumbered in 1944 when you —
GR: Yeah.
DT: Attacked the Americans.
GR: Yes. Very much, and I’ll give you an example. On this particular mission 12th of May 1944, we had a unit with two Fokke Wulf Groups. Heavy fighters. They were supposed to attack the bombers and I had a Group with twenty five high altitude fighters, 109 polished and cleaned for that and all unnecessary equipment out of the aeroplane. We cruised at a level of eleven thousand metres without pressurisation. Without, without heating of the cockpit and it was a group of seventy five. The bombers were eight hundred and we had escort, fighter escort by radar. Recognised from the Hartz Mountains down to Stuttgart. All together about eleven hundred. There might have been another German Group which I don’t know but we were, we were at the spot, you know and with this outnumbering magnitude of bombers and fighters.
DT: So, the, so the total ratio of bombers and fighters to yourselves was about thirty to one.
GR: I don’t know. I must say this this was not in our area. I mean, a bomber stream of eight hundred bombers takes about a hundred kilometres.
DT: Yes.
GR: You know.
DT: It must have been a daunting prospect.
GR: But at one point we were there, you know and this is, it was, it was always we were always outnumbered. We were outnumbered in Russia.
DT: How did you feel when you, when you saw the huge size of the American offensive operation? The sky must have been full of aeroplanes.
GR: No.
DT: Did you feel —
GR: You don’t. You don’t, you know this is a wide space. The, the, in there and you see some, you see some here, you see some there and what do you think? You know, this is more, this is not only a thinking process. It’s also let’s say a hunting instinct also. Certainly, you know the rules. How to attack, when, from which direction. How to get your formation to the enemy, you know. But from there it’s his business, you know. We cannot direct every part in a dogfight. That’s his own business, but to get them in in a good position but this is a matter of a fraction of seconds very often. Not long -term planning. It’s a moving target. A high-speed moving target and the situation changes from every second.
KC: You said that you actually flew aircraft that were stripped and polished.
GR: Yeah.
KC: So that they gave an improved performance.
GR: Yeah.
KC: The Americans did this and they took the camouflage off their fighters and polished them.
GR: Ah yeah.
KC: Did you actually fly silver polished aircraft?
GR: No. No. No. No.
KC: They were still camouflaged.
GR: They were still, yeah camouflaged you know [laughs] It doesn’t, it doesn’t work very much if they identified us whether with colour or not.
KC: You said a few moments ago that you had the pleasure to fly the P47.
GR: Yeah.
KC: And the P51. Did you fly any other captured aircraft, and whereabouts was this that you flew these captured aeroplanes?
GR: A P38, a Spitfire. I flew them and I think that one of the outstanding aeroplanes is a Spitfire, but the Spitfire had the same problem with me. I only flew, all the European’s aircraft where a fighter aircraft, were designed for short range.
KC: I understand that you have a particular quote for the P38 that it was quite a good aircraft, but there was a particular role that it was more suited to than any other.
GR: Yeah. I would, I would, I would like to fly with a P38 on vacation you know. Fantastic. Luxury. Good space in the cockpit, two engines, not the status. A very comfortable thing, you know. Beautiful. But in a dogfight, I think it’s two big, you know with two engines it turned out. The concept, we had discerned on the German side also once this idea to have the long range destroyer [unclear] and it didn’t work out. They had tremendous losses. It wasn’t that the P38 was not as bad as the 110 but compared the 51, 47 I would prefer the 51.
Other: Stop it there, chaps. We’re about to run out of tape again.
[recording paused]
Other: Ok, chaps.
KC: Going back to the, the flying of captured allied aircraft was this with the special unit that you —
GR: Yes.
KC: You flew. Were you detached to this unit?
GR: Yeah. At that, time I was not able to fly in combat because I still had an open injury, yeah and I was ordered to be the commander of a German Fighter Leader School and I had to train young officers to become squadron commanders. And we got a visit. There was a German unit formed by captured aircraft. They flew captured aircraft painted with the German insignia and, just for evaluation and they came to me, and I certainly took the chance to fly all of them as target against my students. So, I get very well acquainted with all these planes.
KC: Did, did you, did you come across the P39? The Airacobra or the Kingcobra.
GR: No. We didn’t. In Russia yes. We had a lot of Airacobra in Russia and the Russians liked them. Particularly Pokryshkin, one of the outstanding fighter pilots, Russian fighter pilots. He flew the Airacobra. We also liked them because sometimes I thought it’s a, it’s a good target because the Airacobra has the engine behind the pilot at the back which means it has the centre of gravity is way back in this aeroplane and in a dogfight if you hit and this is what I recognised, when you hit an Airacobra in the wing you get instability, you know and then it gets in a spin and can’t recover because of this centre of gravity situation.
KC: Were you invited to join General Galland’s jet unit JV44 to fly the Messerschmitt 262?
GR: No. I flew the 262. At the time I was the commander of this Fighter Leader School, and I took the chance. It was very close to the training base in the south of Augsburg where my friend Heinz [Behr] was the commander said, ‘Come over.’ Gave me the chance to fly the 262. So, I got checked out to fly the 262 and flew about twenty, thirty hours. Not in operation. Just to get acquainted with the aeroplane and then I had to take over another Wing. The Wing 300. This it would be to come to the 44 Wing from Galland, and all these guys who were in Galland’s wing their units were dissolved. They didn’t exist anymore, but I had to take over a Wing. I mean these were the ruins of a Wing but it was Wing.
KC: And was, was among obviously the aircraft was dramatically different to fly but how did you feel as an experienced pilot?
GR: It was a new dimension, you know. First, if you taxied with a, with a 262 it was a wonderful feeling. You had a beautiful view because you have a nosewheel. You taxied like in a taxi. Yeah. You know, not the zigzag of a 109 where you had the engine in front of you and you reduced the visibility, forward visibility. So, this was number one. Number two you had a very good radio situation. No background noise because there was no interference from the engine. This was very clear. Without noise. Then take off. The, you had to accelerate the throttle very, very carefully and slowly. If, you do it rapidly you can over heat and risk of fire in the engine which happened quite often. So, advance the throttle very carefully and slowly. Once you release the brakes and you rolled down the runway catching up speed and getting into the air the 262 at the beginning is very heavy and unmanoeuverable, until she really catches up speed. Then we are superior. And the 262 was the only aeroplane designed to make dogfights, you know. The advantage was attack with high speed go and start again but don’t turn the old-fashioned dogfights. This is not for the 262. But the 262 flew at about the double speed. Double the speed of the normal conventional aircraft.
KC: After the war you got to know Steinhoff very well indeed. He served with you in NATO and I think he became a friend of yours.
GR: Yeah.
KC: He often said that he felt that his crash in the 262 was due to a bomb crater but when we met General Galland he seemed to think that there was a movement between, there is control for a flap.
GR: Yeah.
KC: And the throttle controls were very close together, and he seemed to think that possibly Steinhoff had used that as well as a contributory factor. Did you get to talk to Steinhoff about that particular incident?
GR: No. You know and you have to, this was such a dramatic accident. Even the memory of Steinhoff, you know was not, couldn’t be realistic, you know, because there are a lot of psychological influence in such a situation. What really happened I don’t know. Some say with the flaps. Lowering for flaps, or reducing flaps too early and he says the crater, a bomb crater. I don’t know and whether he could have the right memory I don’t, after such a dramatic, dramatic accident, you know. He lost his face and his consciousness. Everything. How can he commemorate exactly what happened?
KC: At the end of the war of course you came into the allied, the, became a prisoner of war.
GR: Yeah.
KC: In the west.
GR: Yeah.
KC: How were you treated and what was your story of your movement from operational status to —
GR: Yeah.
KC: Prisoner of war.
GR: Well, you know this was from one day to another one you know. We want to go home. The war is over. There is no, no fighting anymore and we dissolved our units and I said goodbye and thanked them and you go to north and we go south and soon you get the food. That was last and everybody tries to go home. And we marched with my staff until the late, [unclear] and what we didn’t know at that time there was a very strong, there was a very strong all these soldiers came this is the alpine fortress. Something like that. Very fanatic Nazis fighting to the dead end. It wasn’t true. We wanted to go home. Ok. They got us and then I had some camps. Lousy camps. I don’t blame the Americans you know, because there was such a number of prisoners from one day to the other. They hardly could feed them, you know. There was a logistical problem. There was, no camps. Where to put them? And so it would happen to us also, you know. From one day we had thousands and thousands and thousands of prisoners but no camps, no food. We were fed and suddenly we have an, we had an array of people, other people who couldn’t stand it. They passed away. There was tremendous malnutrition but it was due to the fact that it was unforeseen situation. Then I was picked up by the Secret Service or whoever we call it. CIA or what. They called to get all the Air Force officers, and they called out the name. Five. Rall bump, bump and then we were interrogated privately, individually and the question was, ‘You flew the —’ Asked me, ‘You flew the 262?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ And they said, ‘Would you, would you assist us by giving us your advice? By building up a jet force. We don’t have —’ The Americans didn’t have a jet at that time in operation. The war was over. Our sympathy was with the west and I said, ok. Then I said, ok, and we were taken out from this camp and you know after we didn’t have, we were really suffering from food and no food. Lackage of food. And when this oversized jeep took four of us out of the camp after one hour or after half an hour he stopped in a small trail beside the main road and opened his trunk and here came sausage and food and tomato juices and this was the first time we were very, very happy. Then we went to Heidelberg and from there to Wiesbaden, and finally we were taken over to England in to an interrogation camp, and every day we walked up and down and talked the war over again, you know. Primarily about the different types. 262 certainly. This was a main interest. And with one of these interrogators we still have, or Galland had a close friendship with Colonel Wigman. An American colonel. He lives in Vienna and he also attended the funeral of Galland. He was a good friend. So, the treatment was very [pause] comfortable. Not comfortable but acceptable. Put it that way. Acceptable. And then I was taken to, from England to when, you know we lost, they lost interest in our, in our personalities you know, the persons because the war is still running in in the Far East, and they dropped the atomic bomb and the whole thing was over. Then we, then they lost every interest in us. And I was in France and I was as a, as a, as an American prisoner, and they were asked to lend us to the British and then we came over to Tangmere together with Rudel, and in Tangmere we sat together in the evening with all the outstanding British fighter pilots, Bader, Stanford Tuck and [unclear] and they treated us as gentlemen up there.
KC: I believe —
GR: Grateful. Very grateful.
Other: Can we just hold that chaps. I’m about to lose the batteries.
[recording paused]
GR: He was a blockhead, you know.
DT: Yes.
GR: [unclear] I cannot say that here.
DT: Right.
GR: It becomes history. This man is damned, you know. I don’t like that. He was a great fighter, no doubt. But certainly, I wouldn’t call him a friend, you know.
KC: What was, what was he like as a, did it come across in conversation, his, his attitude.
GR: Me. I. ‘I was the greatest.’ ‘I had the highest decoration.’
DT: Mohammed Ali type.
KC: He couldn’t, that was it, the special medal he got. What was it called?
GR: He got the, he had the Knights Cross with Oak Leaf and Swords in diamonds in gold.
DT: That’s right. And only Goering had —
GR: Only. Only he. Only he has. Yeah.
KC: Ok.
GR: Actually, he has the highest decoration. Rudel.
KC: Could, could you just tell us of that flight from France and your first meeting with the British officers at Tangmere.
GR: Yes. You know, we were American prisoners and one day in a camp in, in the Brittany [pause] or Normandy, Normandy and one day the American officer came, ‘Pack.’ Didn’t know what to do, and I had to be at the main gate in ten minutes, and there also was Rudel. Rudel was in the hospital camp and they also came over and the jeep came and we jumped in to the jeep, and here we went and Rudel was always saying, ‘Where are we going? Where are we going? I think the Russians have sent a ship and they turn us over to the Russians.’ The command we are not that important that the Russians come with a cruiser from Leningrad to, to Cherbourg to pick two guys up and bring them back. We ended up in Cherbourg in a little airfield and waited. And after a while a Beechcraft came with British cocarde blue, white, red. Ok. Here we go to England, and we jumped into the Beechcraft and flew over the Channel. I knew the Channel and right after we crossed the border the, the, the, the coastline the pilot reduced the throttle. We are going to land. We looked outside. I said, ‘Ah, here’s a base.’ I saw the base and we went down. Circled down, and came in and landed. And when we landed, we jumped out of the plane and the air police came and Rudel jumped out and he had his rucksack, and in his rucksack, he had his artificial leg. He was on stretchers, one leg marching. The other one was in the rucksack [laughs] It was not the brightest view of the German Air Force. Anyway, they took us very politely. Escorted us to the prison. I thought this could not be the only reason to come over here. To go in another prison. But they left the doors open. This is a good indication. Say to Rudel, ‘You must be optimistic. The doors are open.’ After a short while a very smart British wing commander came. Good looking and exquisite German, ‘Excuse me. You came earlier than expected,’ and offered us immediately a cigarette. Never happened in the last years. I mean offered a cigarette. Very nice. And then he asked us in German, ‘Did you have lunch?’ I said, ‘Sir, I didn’t have lunch in the last three months.’ And he escorted us to the officer’s mess, and we get the lunch. It was fantastic to us as prisoners, always treated by guards with a machine gun, ‘Macht schnell. Macht schnell,’ and now treated as gentlemen. And the man who treated us as gentlemen was Wing Commander Stanford Tuck and I’ll never forget. This man gave us a feeling as we were treated as gentlemen.
KC: Did you, did you know then of his reputation at that time?
GR: No.
KC: As a fighter pilot.
GR: No. I knew his reputation after. He came over and we became friends in Germany, and he attended our fighter pilot’s meeting. He was, became a good friend of Galland, as Bader did. So, but not at that time.
KC: Eventually you became a major contributor to the build Other: up of the, rebuild of the Luftwaffe after the war in the 1950s. Could you tell us a little about your role?
GR: Yes. When I got, you know Steinhoff, they joined the office in preparation to build up the force and he wrote me a letter, Steinhoff when, when the time has come and we are legally authorised for new Germany. ‘You have to come. How should we build up an Air Force without you?’ Without you, not meaning me but all the pilots, the old fighter pilots. I said I was really lucky to because you know the, the bad experiences and the, the trauma of this feeling that we fought maybe for the wrong objectives, and with all these new knowledges, what happened, and all these arguments I was not willing to jump in a new adventure at this time. So, I was reluctant but I was convinced certainly in our new democratic system an armed force was necessary for the defence, you know in those days. We still had tremendous confrontation between east and west. The hot war. The, the Cold War. The Cold War. And finally, I said, ‘Ok. I come.’ And then I joined on the 1st of January ‘56 the new German Air Force which at that time was just in an early build up situation.
KC: And where did you train for this?
GR: First, I was on the staff to do our staff work and to make all the conditions for building up the force. We had to build up the staff, the schools, the structure. And then I went to, I went to flying and I was working on a programme to get all these wartime pilots trained in the States. You know, we started our training with the Harvard Mark 4 as a trainer. Then to the T33, first jet, and then we went to the States to Luke Air Force Base in Phoenix, Arizona, and we were trained on the F84. Some others were trained in Canada on the F86. This was the nucleus of the units in the new German Air Force.
KC: And eventually you went on to fly the Starfighter, I understand.
GR: Later on. You know, in ’58 my general asked me, ‘Do you want to fly the 104?’ And I said, ‘Yes sir.’ It was a most spectacular aircraft. The first aircraft who went through the barrier of sound in a climb. There was a [unclear] sixteen thousand pound thrust rate, six thousand pound, sixteen thousand pound thrust. So, one to one. I said yes so, they took me over to Palmdale, to Los Angeles with a group of engineers and they have to try to figure out the German version of the 104. The T version. At that time, we made six flights from me to the Lockheed Company out in Palmdale and I flew the A the B, and A model, and this was for me a new dimension. Fantastic. And when I came back, I was declared to the project officer of the 104, and from there on I was every year three or four months with young pilots and we flew all the tests of first, full maximum load and night flying and with the bomb being, which changed. The problem was that due to political pressure the 104 had to replace these old timers early as possible which meant that the, the production sometimes was parallel to the, to the design, to the to the development of the aircraft. This was sometimes a critical situation.
KC: At this time the aircraft actually became surrounded in some controversy because it got the reputation as a widow maker.
GR: Yeah.
KC: As an aircraft that was unreliable.
GR: You know, the 104 you can argue about this for hours and hours. What was the reason of the unacceptable losses we had on a 104? If you ask a pilot, every pilot who flew the 104 said it’s a pilot’s aircraft it was the best aircraft we could get. The 104 was an aircraft which wants to fly. You have to. You have to force it through the air. It flies by itself. A very stable weapons platform. But you have to follow the conditions, you know. Don’t make a mistake. It’s an unforgivable aircraft also with the small wings. Due to the fact that production development was parallel and some others certainly there was a source of mistakes, of failures. But as an overall judgement the, the losses of the 104 was not due to the wrong construction of the aeroplane, mistakes in the aeroplane it was a genius development of design from Kelly Johnson in the States. But we always had, or ninety percent of the whole losses were human failure in some area. Not only the pilot. The maintenance, the [unclear] or whatever.
KC: It was designed of course as an interceptor. A pure interceptor.
GR: I know.
KC: But in Europe it was employed in a ground attack role.
GR: It was a multi-roler. We had a multi-role. We used the 104 as an interceptor, as a fighter bomber, and as a reconnaissance and we thought for financial reasons we cannot afford to have a logistic system for interceptor, for fighter bomber and for the reconnaissance. This was, surely it was wrong, because a multi-role aircraft means always not the extreme best solution for the particular role. It means a compromise. A compromise is always giving up some advantages, and this is true of the 104.
DT: Do you still maintain contact with your wartime comrades?
GR: Yes. Sure. We, in Germany we have a very fine Association. A Fighter Pilot’s Association with a tremendously good president and due to him you know we have a very good contact. And what he does you know this is biological problem that if you have in fifty years of Fighter Association there’s nobody there. They all passed away so how can you solve this? Keep this unit, this association alive. It means you have to get in new pilots. A new force. So, most of the wing commanders of the new German Air Force I mean, the unit is fifty years old already. Much older than the old one. They all became members of the Fighter Pilot’s Association so, they will, if the old characters pass away, they still arrive, the Association.
DT: I understand you were one of the first if not the very first German ace to be invited to Moscow to speak to the Russian fighter pilots.
GR: Yeah.
DT: Tell us of your experiences in Moscow.
GR: Yeah. This is, you know I was invited by the veterans. War veterans. And I was invited through the German Embassy and the German Air Attache delivered this invitation. And the, the man who had the invitation was General Oberst Andreyev, he was not a wartime veteran he was younger but he was the commander in chief of the Warsaw Pact Air Forces for a time. And when I came over, I was received very politely at the airport. Four, four persons saluted me and took me to my hotel. It was a very friendly treatment, and the next day we went out to Kubinka. Kubinka is the third most important operation base of the present Russian Air Force and it is the home of the acrobatic team with the MIG29 and the SU27. Highly modern aircraft. And there an assembly of five, four hundred officers and all the maps from the war time and all with the figures. How many army soldiers we had at the beginning and they had to compare, and the old veterans they couldn’t always get upright because they had tons of medals on their pressing down. Like a, like an arming plate, you know. But this is a Russian habit. And now, we were on the front stage and we are on the table and they delivered their speech to the four hundred officers. This was the meaning. To give these officers inspiration because the Russian armed forces are in a very, very critical shape. This was a privileged cast in the past. Now, they are completely underprivileged. They don’t have money, you know, and many draughtees don’t show up. They don’t come and all the privileges are gone and from one day to the other, you know. This is only a very short time so they are in a situation and they want to motivate their officers. Therefore, they invited the old groups, all to talk about the war and all the medals. And then I was on the stage and I had the privilege to have a very good interpreter. A very nice lady. And I spoke one sentence, and she could translate and I would think of the next one so, because I was completely unprepared. I didn’t know. It was very nice and I recapulated all my experience in the east and certainly also spelling out my high respect for their great fighting morale. Their capability to switch from a very obsolete Air Force to a very modern, very very acceptable Air Force during the war. And after that we went out to a balcony, and we had the demonstration of the acrobatic team with the MIG29 and SU27. It was outstanding. Excellent. And after that finally, we went to lunch. It was about 4 o’clock in the afternoon, and there was a tremendous table set. Beautiful. We came in. There was a band playing Russian, very nice Russian songs, and a colonel, a lieutenant colonel. He was a singer. He sung, beautiful Russian voice and a major in a duet sometimes and what I spotted on the table set was every thirty centimetres one bottle of vodka.
Other: Can you just hold it there? I’m sorry.
[recording paused]
Other: If you want to go back over the, maybe the setting out the table.
GR: About the what? Sorry? Yeah. OK.
DT: Go back to you went, you went out on the balcony.
GR: Ok.
DT: And saw the aircraft.
GR: No. When we came back into, into the lunch room, you know.
DT: Yeah.
GR: With the little band playing and singing. The lieutenant colonel singing and the major singing. It was, it was wonderful. And then we are sitting at the table, and I was sitting next to General Andreyev, and he delivered a speech and then he gave me the wings of Russian Air Force. I was very touched by this. And then there was beautiful for food, Caviar and what you have. And then he asked all these veterans toast to so and so, and it was in Russian. I couldn’t follow that, trust me [laughs] And all these old timers, one after the other toasted to somebody, to something. I don’t know what but I know after every toast of [unclear] vodka, no swallowing, just pouring in. You can imagine after eight toasts, it was a very gay club there, and this is what I would really liked, you know, and a two star general, Army general stood up and gave a poem, you know. He, how do you —
DT: Recite.
KC: Recited.
GR: Yeah. A poem. And then it was sung. And next to him was the pilot of the MIG29, and when I had, I was offered to, to make some, give some words to them, and I said, well I’m deeply touched about the wide span of Russian mentality from a very sentimental, very amusable, very agreeable situation by the songs of Russian songs, about the poems about the very, very literal mood to the strong tactical side of the pilot of the MIG29 and SU27, this was a wide span recording the Russian soul. It was no doubt.
KC: Grateful that you came over here to Yorkshire to the Yorkshire Air Museum and helped us with our fund raising. I think everybody who came to the lecture that we had last night thoroughly enjoyed themselves and certainly David and I would be pleased to know whether you are actually grateful that eventually after many phone calls and letters you did give in to the persistent Yorkshireman as you call him, my colleague here.
GR: I am very glad to be here and I’m very, I’m convinced it was good to come over here to meet friends. I can say that and to make a contribute to the, to the very, very fine Yorkshire Air Museum. And I envy you I must say. When you are about here because of the great interest and enthusiasm of your people here in masses to be interested. Historical events, and events of today which I am slightly missing in Germany. Thank you.
KC: Sir, thank you very much indeed.
Other: What we need to do now is, if you just carry on chatting and I’ll just get some listening shots.
KC: Right.
Other: You know, but if you can try and keep him quiet. So, I’m just do, you know a few close ups of his face listening, and then we’ll do the same with you.
KC: What? Talking. Listening to me, talking, you mean.
Other: Yeah.
KC: Right.
Other: [unclear] I’ll just get —
DT: Right. So when, when does your plane go general, today?
GR: 14.40 I think.
KC: Yes. Yes.
GR: And I will go to Gatwick in one hour. Then I arrive Salzburg, I think 1910, which is here 1810.
KC: I think we have to say that David and I, certainly David was the inspiration behind these things, aviation lectures and when we first started them which was about what four years ago —
DT: Yeah.
KC: Four years ago, the first ones we had was a local speaker and I think there was six people turned up.
DT: Something like that.
KC: Six or seven people turned up to the first one. We had a —
DT: And a dog. And one dog.
KC: And a dog. We had some, we had a quiz which was again just a few local people.
GR: Yeah.
DT: And at that time one of our museum colleagues said we decided to put up the entrance fee from two pounds to three pounds and our friend said. ‘You’re being very risky. Keep it to local people and about two pounds.’ And four years later here we are with such distinguished speakers as yourself as yourself and Johnny Johnson, and Wilhelm Johnen.
GR: Yeah.
DT: And the various people we’ve had.
GR: Yeah.
DT: Colonel David from the Canadian Air Force.
GR: Yeah.
KC: From all over the world. I mean it is quite remarkable. I don’t think David and I in our wildest dreams would ever have thought that we’d have spent such time with people like yourself, and the British aces. I mean it’s absolutely incredible.
DT: I’ll tell you, if we are not on record, General Rall, I said to the museum chairman one year ago we may have an opportunity to speak to Gunther Rall, and he said, ‘Who is Gunther Rall?’ [laughs] I said, ‘Well, he is the — ’
GR: Was he a German? Sorry [laughs]
DT: ‘He is the world’s leading fighter ace still left alive.’ ‘Oh,’ He said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘Nobody in England has heard of him apart from you.’ Apart from me.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
DT: I said, ‘That is rubbish.’
GR: Yeah.
DT: ‘Many people have heard of Gunther Rall,’ I said.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
DT: He said, ‘I think it is a big risk for the Yorkshire Air Museum — ’ So — [laughs]
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
DT: We’ve taken —
Fw 190
Hurricane
Ju 87
Me 109
Me 262
P-51
RAF Tangmere
Spitfire
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/845/10839/AGreenWG150911.1.mp3
ba6635496652503178b42beb5d3131ea
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Title
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Green, Geoff
William Geoffrey Green
W G Green
Description
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An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Geoffrey Green DFC and bar (176170 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner and gunnery leader with 100 and 625 Squadrons.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-09-11
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Green, WG
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Transcription
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AGreenWG150911
BW: Right. This is Brian Wright. I'm interviewing Squadron Leader Green at […], and it's Friday the eleventh of September, twenty fifteen, at two thirty. So, Squadron Leader Green, I understand you were a rear gunner in a Lancaster.
WG: Yes, Gunnery Leader. Yes, I was in the rear turret, yes.
BW: Could we just start with your full name and your rank at the time you were doing these operations.
WG: Yes, it's William, do you want the [pause] name, when you say name, full name.
BW: Yes please, yes.
WG: What's the word I want for the Christian, ah, Christian names you want, do you?
BW: That's right.
WG: William Geoffrey Green. That's, er, Geoffrey is G E O double F R E Y.
BW: OK. And what rank were you at the time, when you joined the squadron?
WG: I was a Sergeant.
BW: Sergeant.
WG: I passed out as a Sergeant, yes.
BW: OK. And, if you would, just describe for me, please, what your life was like prior to you joining the RAF. Where did you live, and what prompted you to join the RAF?
WG: Yes. Well, I was born in Kings Lynn, Norfolk. [pause]
BW: And how long were you living there before you joined up?
WG: I joined up when I was seventeen and a half, officially, but as far as they were concerned, I was eighteen, because you had to be eighteen then. Yes, anyway, that's right, I joined up and then from there, I went to, oh dear, it's a long time ago [pause]. Well, I was being trained, you know, in various places; OTU's.
BW: Yes
WG: Operational Training Units, and all those sorts of things. The usual, the usual drill, you know, for a new boy, if you follow me. And, er
BW: Did you come from a large family?
WG: No, I had one sister.. [pause], I had one sister, was she in the WAAF? I don't think she was. Oh, it was you in the WAAF, oh no it wasn't?
Laura: No. Mother.
WG: Oh, your mother. Yes, that's right and then, oh, I've lost my train of thought now.
BW: And what prompted you to join the RAF? There was obviously a war going on at the time. Why the RAF and not the other services?
WG: Yes there was. I had a silly though that if I didn't [pause], if I didn't join the Air Force to fly, there was no point in joining it. That was the main reason. I didn't, I had no, all my friends at home, school friends and what-not were in the Army, and I hadn't anything, hadn't any keenness to join the Army. I always, I think I always wanted to fly, until I did, and then of course, I didn't want to [laughs]. My father used to say, 'I can't understand why you want to fly'. And of course, I thought that over, and I thought, 'you're dead right’. I don't know why I wanted to fly, because as soon as I started I was, not terrified, but bordering [laughs]. No, it's a bit of a line, that. I was pleased to fly. I realised I wasn't a Navy type, and I don't suppose they would have accepted me, anyway, because they were, the people they, the people that went into the Navy who I knew were all sort of special types, they'd got something to really offer that service. Well, I had nothing at all to offer the Air Force, but I just wanted to, I just thought it would be just nice to come home on leave, and walk up and down the High Street in my uniform. [laughs]. Oh dear.
BW: And did the thought of becoming a pilot attract you, or was it something that you thought, I’d rather be in a crew?
WG: Yes, it was. I got accepted, I was accepted under the PNB scheme, which stood for Pilot, Navigator, Bomb Aimer. In other words, if you failed as a pilot, they tried to train you then as a Navigator, and if you failed at that, you were trained as a bomb aimer. And if you failed at that, you were out [laughs], so I should have got out in the first place to save all that trouble.
BW: So how did you end up, then, as a gunner? Because if you were on that scheme, and as you said, if you weren't successful in one of those categories, you were out. What then led you to be a gunner?
WG: Well, that was the last thing I could be before I was out.
BW: I see.
WG: That was the lowest form of animal life, I suppose, and if you failed at being an air gunner, well they didn't want you. You can't blame them, I suppose but fortunately, I didn't fail. I often thought I would, but I wasn't good at maths and that sort of thing, you know. I did think of, I was mustering to train as a navigator, and then I realised that I would need a higher standard of maths than I could offer, so I just had to let them sort of guide me through the Air Force, sort of thing, without volunteering for anything.
BW: And what were the tests like, that you had to sit during your training? Do you remember those?
WG: Err, well yes, there were partly navigation, but very, very junior navigation stuff. Nothing complicated, because if it was, I wouldn't have got it but -. What else was it, oh, it's a long time ago. Err, aircraft recognition, that sort of thing, signals, and that's about all, you know. And then I, and then I was transferred on to do an instructors course, and I joined an instructors team to train the lads coming in, sort of thing, you know. But it didn't last very long because I, well, oh for about, maybe about six months, because I was not really the type to train people. I was too short tempered, I suppose. If they didn't, er, if they didn't sort of pick it up the first time, I didn't want to know, and I didn't give a second chance. I had many a second chance, but I didn't, I didn’t agree with that. Oh, I don't know. So there you are.
BW: And what was life like on the base? You went through the training and the Operational Training Units, and you got to base. What was the accommodation like? What were the facilities like on the base at the time?
WG: Excellent. You mean living accommodation and food, that sort of thing? Oh yes. Yes, in those days, aircrew had, aircrew had, er, they didn't eat with the non-aircrew type, if you follow me. You didn't actually have special food, I suppose, though I don't really know, but it was jolly good food, and you were built up a bit that way. I was a bit of a weedy lad when I was young, younger, so I was built up really, I suppose.
BW: So you were well fed?
WG: Well fed, yes, oh yes.
BW: Your training and lifestyle really made a man of you in that respect
WG: Oh yes, yes, and of course, when you'd finished in the daytime, you were really on the town at night, you know. The SP's were chasing you, or you were chasing the SP's [laughs], and being rude to people, I expect. Oh dear.
BW: So where did you socialise when you went off base, where were the local towns that you would visit?
WG: Oh, Grimsby. Grimsby, er, oh dear, I should have got the log book, I could show you my log book, if you wanted to see it, if it would be any use to you, would it?
BW: If you have it, and it's not inconvenient, yes, that would help.
WG: It's in the drawer, Laura dear, would you mind. That's very kind of you. Yes, what was I talking about?
BW: Visiting Grimsby?
WG: Log book, oh I remember, yes, I'm very forgetful nowadays, you've obviously noticed.
BW: You were talking about Grimsby, and visiting towns.
WG: Oh yes, Grimsby, Grimsby, Lincoln, er. Yes, I did a tour from Grimsby, I did a tour from Grimsby at a place called Waltham. Was it? Yes, Waltham. And then I thought, 'well that's that, I've finished my flying'. But I hadn't. Instead of being transferred to instructing, I think they realised I was no good at it, because I was interviewed, instead of being, er, what did I do then? I went to, I went to, I stayed on at Grimsby instructing, for a while, and then I went to two or three other stations in Lincolnshire, instructing, you know. And not only instructing, but giving talks on what it was like, if you follow me, you know. I suppose line-shooting, you know.
BW: And was this with a view to encouraging new recruits to join the Air Force?
WG: Beg pardon?
BW: Was this with a view to encouraging new recruits to join the Air Force?
WG: It was, yes. It was going round instructing to recruits, yes. I went round to one or two stations. Bircham Newton and Finningley, all in the Lincolnshire area, you know and then I, then I was screened, as they called it, taken off, and I thought, 'well that's that, I've finished the dicey part of flying'. But of course, I hadn't. I should think it would only be about six to eight months, and I was sent back again, which rather shook me, because I thought I'd done with all that nonsense. And I thought, ' well, this is tempting suicide', but it wasn't. I completed a second tour then and then I went back on to instructing again. And what happened then? It was getting towards the end of the war, I suppose. And it's difficult trying to remember what I did then. I stayed in Lincolnshire, I know. Mainly, I was always flying anyway as well as instructing, well, with instructing, you were flying as well. The new recruits, the new aircrew people and then I suppose the war ended. Well, no, it couldn't have done because I did a second, I was going back on a third tour. Voluntary, actually. Other blokes, er, I was no good at instructing, and I was interviewed for another instructors job, but I asked to go back on a third tour, but fortunately [chuckles] the war ended. So I didn't do a third tour. That's why I'm here, I suppose.
BW: And so, you were doing the instructing in between your tours? You did your first tour, then had the instructor posts you were talking about.
WG: That's it.
BW:Then second tour.
WG: Second tour
BW: Followed by another post as instructor.
WG: Well yes, but it didn't come off, the second, the second instructing bit
BW: Right. So, just take us back, then, to that point when you met your crew. How did you join up as a crew, how did you meet and crew-up?
WG: We went to, I can't remember the station, but it, as I say, it'll be in my log book, which is out there. Oh, Laura's got it. Thank you very much. I, er, oh dear. Excuse me. Here we go. Oh, there's a five pound note there, Laura. Is it yours?
Laura: No.
WG: That's something, isn't it? I'm glad you came [laughs]. Would you like to look at this yourself?
BW: Yes, we can have a look through. I'll just put the recorder on pause while we pick out one or two points in the log books.
WG: Alright. This is 'Results of Ammunition Courses and Remarks'. That's the one, that's it. There you are, there's a good write up here [laughs], though my mother wouldn't agree, 'could have done much better had he tried harder' [laughs]. That's what the school people used to say. 'Over confident, needs watching'. One signed by a Squadron Leader, here it is, 'could have done much better had he tried harder'. 'Over confident, needs watching'. That's that bit. And then here, [paper rustling] oh dear, oh dear, here we are. Here we come to the nitty-gritty stuff. These are all the, this is Seventeen Air-gunners School, Stormy Down, Bridgend, Glamorganshire, South Wales. I was a trainee here. Here I was training on Whitley's, Defiants. Whitley's and Defiants, yes, and that was headquarters training with number 17 AGS. And then in nineteen forty three, I was on number 28 OTU, Wymeswold, Leicestershire. Er, circuits and landings, and what-not. Cross countries, landings, formation flying, air test, cross country, bombing, exercise, and all that business. What's all this? Oh, exercises, bombing exercises, circuits and landings, circuits and landings, at night, circuits and landings, cross countries, cross countries, bombing, that was all night flying. [unclear] Then I went to heavy conversion unit, Number 1656 Heavy Conversion Unit, Lindholme, Yorkshire, where I flew on Halifaxes, Lancasters. Circuits and landings, cross countries, oh dear, they were a bind.
BW: What did you think of flying in the Halifaxes and Lancasters? You'd previously flown in, say, Whitleys, how did that?
WG: Well, it was really, really nice to be on them, because it was a step up, if you follow me. Halifaxes, I didn't like Halifaxes, except that there was plenty of room down in the rear turret. You could move about a bit, you know. In fact, they seemed to me to be too big, quite honestly but they were much better, in my opinion, they were much better than the Lancaster. The Lancaster, you were a bit cooped up, you know, it was a bit difficult to move. They were hard to get into. To get into, you got in the back door and then you lifted up onto a sort of a table, a long table, then you had to get, you had to hang on with your hands at the back, and get your feet on to this table, and push yourself forward until you got to the doors of the rear turret. And then you got into the rear turret and closed your doors, and you really felt trapped in, sort of thing, but once you started flying, you, I overcame that. I don't know about others but I overcame it.
BW: Is it correct you had to leave your 'chute outside of the turret? You had to put it on the side?
WG: Yes, on the left hand side. In a clip. You couldn't, with the Lancaster, you couldn't get your, that was a snag, you couldn't get your parachute actually in with you. If you had to bale out, you had to centralise the turret, turn it to starboard, open the door, open the doors, and you really were, as you opened the doors there, you were outside in the thin air, you know. But with the, that was with the Lancaster, but with the Halifax, it was a bit different, to a point anyway, but it was all a bit, it was all a bit nerve-wracking to begin with. And then you suddenly got used to it, and you got used to people saying, 'well, you shouldn't have joined', sort of thing, you know [chuckles], which of course was very true. But too late. [laughs]. I was looking back, well it's different looking back, but at the time I used to think to myself, 'I'll be glad when this is over', but when it was over, I was rather pleased that I could think back on those days, and the people I knew. They all seemed different from the, this is, shouldn't really say it but they seemed different from your ground crew friends, you know. Different type. As if when you were being selected for flying, that they were looking for something. Which they found [laughs]. Oh dear, yes.
BW: And how did you feel being a rear gunner, when there were other gunners on board. I mean, being a tail gunner is perhaps traditionally thought of as, er, a job a lot of people wouldn't want.
WG: Very true, yes. I felt safe in the rear turret because it was, in my opinion, I think, when I got in and got the door shut in the training, I thought, well, at least if anything happens, I've only got to turn this to port or starboard, half turn, and do that, or do that, and the doors automatically opened, and you go out backwards. Once you got your parachute clipped on, you know. Er, yes. What was that question you asked me?
BW: Originally, how did you crew up, how did you meet? At the Conversion Unit.
WG: Oh yes, that's it. We went to an Operational Training Unit, and they said, 'right, you're going to, there are either seven or nine crews of you'. In other words, there were either, there were seven to a crew, so there were either forty nine of us, which was seven to a crew, oh, I forget. I can't forget how many there were in the other lot. And then we were put into, we were put into an operations room, and said, 'right, well there are seven aircrew positions amongst you, and each, each aircraft has seven men', seven different types, gunners, signallers, all that nonsense, and we were told to pick our crew. And you sort of looked round at people, and I found myself with another bloke, just stuck. Nobody seemed to want us, we were just standing there. Everybody else had got, had been picked, as a crew, you know. Which I suppose is rather fortunate, because I, that's how I met Ron Clarke, who I've kept in touch with ever since. But he's dead. He died suddenly. He and his wife died. But we, and then there were six of us who were there that, later on, on my second tour, were picked for going up to Air Ministry for being decorated. And [chuckles], yes, that's right yes, we went up to Air Ministry, and so many of us got a DSO, I got a DFC. And then, let's see, after that I was posted to Bircham Newton, I think it was, training staff, training aircrew, you know, which was a bit of a bind, so I volunteered for a third tour, but it never came off because the, it was quite obvious that the war was ending, and it did, and I didn't do a third tour. Which perhaps was a good thing. That's why I'm here, I expect [laughs].
BW: You mentioned going up to the Air Ministry to get a Distinguished Flying Cross, and they were only awarded to officers at that particular time-
WG: I beg your pardon?
BW: They were only awarded to officers at that particular time, a DFC. Do you recall what the event was that led you to be decorated?
WG: Er, oh yes. Yes. It was, there were several air, several air, several Lancasters were lost, and it was, all I could really say was, it was a very dodgy period. It was, well in my case you were frightened. Quite often. You didn't just think you were frightened, I was frightened, but you overcame that, I overcame that to the point where, I wasn't pleased to go on Op's, but I used to wake up in the morning thinking, 'well, if we're on Op's tonight, is it going to happen?' That's how it got me in the end, and I used to wonder if I would lose my life, you know. Which I didn't, of course, but there you are. And then after my first tour, as I say, I went on instructing, and I was going on for a third instruction course, but I was selected for another tour of Op's, and I took rather a dim view of that, because I thought to myself,' you could go on too long', you know. There's a limit to it. Lots of blokes, I knew several people, several blokes who were, who had done two or three tours, but it was a bit dodgy, you know. So fortunately, I went back on to instructing, went on to instructing, oh, and then I went round, then I went round to schools, in the Lincolnshire area, I suppose, in other words telling them how brave you were [laughs]. And they seemed to believe it [chuckles]. Yes. And after that I was taken off flying. I think I got a bit 'flak happy', as they called it. If you'd done too much operational flying, you were getting a bit round the bend, you know, and you were doing silly things, and taking too many risks, I suppose. And then, yes after the instructing, I suppose the war ended. I don't know when it did end.
BW: You mentioned about, er, thinking about whether you were going to be on Op's the next night, and so on, and it was popular for crews to take mascots, or lucky charms, or have certain rituals. Did you have any of those?
WG: No. I had no faith in lucky charms.
BW: Did any of the crew that you flew with have anything?
WG: Yes, they used to take things that, usually belonged to their wives. My navigator had a, what was it, oh, a little paper, not paper, a little doll about as big as that, that she'd had as a kid. And I suppose they thought, 'well, if I take this, I shan't get killed', sort of thing. That's how you thought of it in those days, you know. You thought, I half expected, I didn't think I would get through, quite honestly. I never thought I'd get through a second tour, and when I was half way through my first tour, I said, 'well, if I get through my first tour, I'm not going to volunteer for a second tour'. But I did. I volunteered to stay on [laughs].
BW: And it was usual, for pilots certainly, who had completed thirty operations to be awarded the DFC? What did you get your DFC for?
WG: No, it wasn't [pause], you're right in saying up to a point, but my skipper was awarded a DFC, but not for doing a second tour. There were, there were, I did know one or two blokes who got them for doing a second tour, but nobody ever seemed to know why. We took a dim view that you joined, you went as aircrew, and that was your job. So of course, of course, you were flying on op's, and bombing Germany and all that sort of thing, but to be decorated just for becoming aircrew, I thought was all wrong. But that was all besides the point, I suppose.
BW: And was yours awarded because you'd completed a number of operations, or was it for a single action?
WG: No, I shot down- oh dear, what did I shoot down? An ME109, I think. I've got it in here somewhere. I've got it in here somewhere. Yeah, I shot down [pause], I don't know if I'm boring you?
BW: No, no. Not at all.
WG: Kelstern to form. Oh yes, I went to Kelstern then, to help form a new squadron. 625 Squadron, with two other aircrews. And we went on another, we went on, we went on to, we formed 625 Squadron, at Kelstern there, and then I got an immediate award. I've got it here in red ink. See previous page. 'Doug Wheeler badly wounded'. He was the bomb aimer, he was badly wounded. And I went up onto the [coughs], there was a bed in the aircraft, just before you get into the pilot's area, and the navigator's, the front part, and he was badly wounded, and they took him up onto the aircrew bed, and I sat with him and [coughs], that’s right. and Warrant Officer Clarke was the pilot, and he was awarded the DFM as well, and the flight engineer was as well. The three of them were awarded the DFM, because they were all NCO's then. And that's about all there.
BW: Your bomb aimer was badly wounded, and you went up.
WG: The bomb aimer was badly wounded, that's right, yes. The bomb aimer was badly wounded, and he lost quite a lot of blood. And it was thought, not by me, but it was thought by, I think it was the bomb aimer, er, I think it was the wireless operator relieved me sitting with him, and he seemed to think that he was losing too much blood, so he couldn't last much longer. But he did, of course. And he and I left together, and I remember, I remember walking down to Grimsby railway station, and our kit was already there. We were being posted. I was going home, home on leave, and he was going home on leave, and it was on the railway station, that's right, both of us on the railway station, and we both said goodbye as our various trains, as our trains came in, and that was that. I kept in touch with him, we kept in touch with each other, but I did not see him again. I went to his home town in, I went to his home town and I met his mother, his father was dead, and I think I met his brother, who had already been accepted for aircrew, but was still a civilian. And then from there I went somewhere else instructing, so I thought, well, I couldn't keep on with this instructing business, because I was never good at it really. I was the wrong temperament. And I volunteered for a third, I volunteered for a third tour. But it was quite obvious the war was ending, and I was never called back to do a third tour. And that was that, I went on a further instruction course, and I was going to join, I was going to be transferred to the er, transferred to the American Air Force, with others but, who were stationed in Lincolnshire, but it never materialised, fortunately. I went to, oh I forget where I went then.
Laura: You went to India.
WG: Oh, I went touring. Touring round various stations, Army and Navy, no, not Navy, but Army and Air Force stations telling them what it was like on operations, sort of thing, you know. You shot a line [chuckles].
BW: Now, you mentioned on that particular instance when you were looking in your log book, that the pilot and the flight engineer were also awarded medals. The pilot got a DFC and the navigator got a DFM. Was your DFC awarded on the same raid, because they got those medals as a result of their actions over Mannheim.
WG: No, I got mine, yes, Mannheim, wasn't it, I got mine after I'd left them. I was on my second tour then. I think I'd started my third tour, quite honestly. But I don't really, it'll be in the log book here. Yes, yeah, I can't remember really.
BW: Ok, do you recall that night when you flew over Mannheim. It was a particularly notable instance, but what were your recollections?
WG: It was, sorry?
BW: It was a notable raid that night.
WG: It was indeed, yes.
BW: What were your recollections of it?
WG: Er, perhaps being more frightened than I normally was. Yes, when you're running up to, the bomb aimer, as you obviously know, was right in the front, I mean, the bomb aimer's nose was there, and there was the fresh air, there, sort of thing, you know. And when you're up the front there, I suppose I was more frightened, but it did pass off, you know. Because I thought, well, if I'm going to frightened like this, I'm going to be no good to the aircrew. They won't want me. That's when he was taken down to the bed, and I went down there with him as another member of the aircrew. Immediate award of the DFC to Warrant Officer Clarke, and the DFM to flight engineer. Warrant Officers and Officers, if they were decorated, got a DFM, and, oh yes [unclear], oh I don't remember, but it's not important.
BW: You mentioned that you'd shot down a ME109.
WG: Yes.
BW: And was that while you were over Mannheim? Or was that on a separate raid?
WG: No, it wasn't when we were over Mannheim, no. Everybody thought Mannheim was going to be a killer, sort of thing, but it wasn't, so it must have been another. No, it wasn't Mannheim. [reading]. 'Immediate award of the DFC, immediate award of the DFC.' Oh yes it was, it was Mannheim. It was Mannheim that we got it, the three of us. We were badly shot up by night-fighters. We were coned, we were coned in searchlights. The searchlights, when you're coned in a searchlight, it switches on twice, a certain searchlight. You see the searchlight in the distance, or I would see them at the back of me, being in the rear turret, creeping up at you on the back, and they would switch on and switch off, twice, and the third time when they switched on, they'd got you. And it was just like this in the turrets, daylight, you know. And of course, that's when the fighters see you and they come in to attack. But we weren't attacked, but we were coned, and it was, it was just like daylight. [Reading] 'Night-fighter, night-fighters, coned in searchlights', that's right. And, that's right, yes, that's it, we were hit there because it says here that we were, 'coned in searchlights and riddled with flak. Upon landing aircraft broke in two', oh yes, and on landing our aircraft broke it's back. And we went, I think Clarke took it into a hedge, because we were still going pretty fast down the runway, having just landed, and we went off the runway, dead ahead, and into that hedge, sort of thing. Which obviously stopped us, and nobody, no sound and nobody moved, it was just as though the whole lot of us were dead [laughs]. It wasn't until we crawled out, feeling very sorry for ourselves [laughs].
BW: And you were saying about the flak on that, on that mission, that it was accurate, and it was at the height that you were at, and it sounded like hail on the side
WG: That's it, the flak, the flak, the flak that was coming up from the ground to the fighters, was coming down onto our aircraft as well, and we could feel it. It shook, it shook the aircraft a bit. That was particularly frightening, I suppose, but only for a while. I'm convinced that, I'm convinced that many times, I never spoke about it, to see if others witnessed it, but many times I was so, so frightened to a point where I was frightened back to normality. I used to think to myself, 'Christ, I'm frightened. This is no good.' And then suddenly, it was suddenly clear, and I would be quite happy to be sitting there, waiting for it to happen. It was as simple as that, you know. You were so frightened, you would be glad to be hit, and shot down. That was the truth, I suppose. Up until then, up until then, when you knew Op's were on, and you were getting up and shaving and what not, you thought, 'well, what's going to happen, I wonder, today.' And, 'tonight', rather, and so often nothing happened. We were only attacked twice, I think. I did fifty five, I did, yes I did fifty five bombing raids on Germany, nine on Berlin, and that was pretty frightening. I was frightened going over Berlin, because they really were a crack lot, the German, the German fighters. I mean, once they'd got you in their sights you could imagine them saying to themselves, 'I've got him this time’. And they would, you see, you'd see others being shot down, of your own type. I saw quite a lot.
BW: You saw quite a lot?
WG: Well, I say quite a lot, less than a dozen, but you know, if you look across at somebody by your side, you see maybe a mile away, and then you see a ball of light on this aircraft, and it gets bigger and bigger, and then suddenly it blows, and that's frightening, you think, 'well, it could happen to me, this’. But, it didn't. But it was frightening to see somebody else, some of your own people shot down. And, I suppose, to see others, the enemy shot down, because you think, well they've all got mothers and fathers. What are they going to say when they get home, you know.
BW: Some veterans talk about it being relatively isolated in the formation, in other words, they would fly a mission and not see other aircraft, perhaps until they were over the target. Was that something you saw as well?
WG: Sorry?
BW: Some veterans say that they didn't see other aircraft in the formation until they were perhaps over the target. Do you, was that something you experienced as well, or were you aware you were in a formation all the time you were on the mission, or did you only see them over the target?
WG: No, we weren't so much together, in a heap, going over. You didn't see any of your own aircraft, seldom saw. The only time you saw other aircraft, or I saw other aircraft, was when German aircraft were firing at our aircraft, in the sky somewhere, but not actually firing at ourselves. So rightly or wrongly, I thought, 'well, thank god they're firing at them and not us’, sort of thing. You know. I didn't feel sorry for the others, I was just pleased for myself [chuckles].
BW: Were you able to pick out enemy night fighters at the time?
WG: Yes. Not so much fighters, but Heinkels. Bombers. We flew alongside, they flew alongside us, or we flew alongside them, same thing, for quite a while and you didn't open fire, I didn't at least, the other two gunners in our aircraft and myself didn't open fire, because you thought, well they're not firing at us so they haven't seen us, so if we fire at them, they're going to see the light from our shots going out, you know.
BW: The muzzle flash and the tracers.
WG: Pardon?
BW: They would see the muzzle flash and the tracers.
WG: Exactly, yes. You'd be giving your position away. And you just called up the pilot, and he would usually do a power dive, which could be quite dicey because you never knew if you really would pull out of a power dive. Especially if you'd still got your bombs on board. So the practice was for the bomb aimer to jettison his bombs, no matter where he was, where we were, but to jettison the bombs to lighten your load and increase your speed a bit, in a dive, you know. We'd been down as much as below a thousand feet, which is a bit of a bind, in a way. You get away from them, but you've got the bind of the slow climb up where they could see you, they could see your engines lit up, you know [pause], yes, they could see you more clearly then.
BW: And I believe you flew a couple of raids over Italy as well.
WG: Oh yes, that's right. Oh yes, so I did. I flew over [reading] Munich, Stuttgart, Hanover, Berlin, Berlin, Mannheim, Munich, Mannheim, er, Hamburg, Nuremberg, Milan. There you are, Milan. Peennemunde, Leverkusen, Berlin, Nuremberg. Oh yes. Did not complete operation. One of the engines was hit. It started a fire, we thought, but it didn't. And Berlin again, then Berlin, Mannheim, Munich, Mannheim. Mannheim was a bad place to bomb. They were very good there, with their night fighters. Hagen, Munich , Stuttgart, Hanover. Oh dear, so it goes on, so it goes on. Stettin, er Russelsheim, Stettin again. Oh, yes, then we went on to the V2 sights. They were in daylight, which was particularly bad. Frankfurt, Danzig, mining. mining Danzig Bay, that was a long trip, that was nine hours there and back. Westkapelle, daylight, Calais, daylight, Cap Brunet, daylight, three hours fifteen, oh dear, oh dear, Westkapelle, damn-busting, daylight. Saarbruken, Stuttgart, six hours fifty five minutes, Essen, five hours thirty, Cologne, oh dear, oh dear, I didn't know I'd done all this [chuckles].
BW: This must have been in nineteen forty four.
WG: Yes it was, November. November forty four. Gelsenkirchen, Van Ickel, that was in the Ruhr, Dortmund, er Maasberg, wherever that was, I don't know. That was on the second tour. Er, Marseilles. Yes, that's about it. The rest of it's all Transport Command stuff. Getting toward the end of the war then. And, er, and, that was it. Calcutta. Delhi and Calcutta, Delhi and Calcutta, Bangalore, Yellow Hanker.
BW: What were you flying there, in Transport Command? In India.
WG: Er, Lancasters. I was always on Lancasters. Except in training, when I was on Lancasters, and oh, what do you call the bloody things? [unclear] I've forgotten what they're called. [pause]. They're all Lancasters there. They're all Lancasters.
BW: You spent a lot of time. obviously, over the Ruhr. So your aircraft, when you were at 100 Squadron, the Phantom of the Ruhr, was appropriately named, wasn't it?
WG: Yes, yes. Sorry?
BW: I say your aircraft, the Lancaster, was called the Phantom of the Ruhr.
WG: That's right, yes.
BW: It was appropriately named, you spent so much time over it.
WG: Yes, the navigator, no, not the navigator, the bloke next to the pilot, the flight engineer, did a very good etching of the scene. What was it was called?
BW: Phantom of the Ruhr.
WG: Oh, that's right, yes. He did, he actually drew a phantom, the head, you know, of a phantom, then underneath he wrote, ' Phantom of the Ruhr'. Yes, I had a photograph of that, I don't know what happened to it. I've lost lots of things I wish I'd kept. Um. Yes [pause]. Yes, there were good and bad days, you know, good and bad days. I often thought, many times, I should never have volunteered, and then I thought, well, if I don't volunteer for flying, there's not much point in volunteering for the Air Force. And I couldn't volunteer for that, I couldn't be an Army bloke. I couldn't have been in the Army. I wouldn't have wanted to be a soldier.
BW: I have a photograph here of the nose-art of the aircraft.
WG: Oh, that's it. The engineer did that.
BW: I think this was after your time on the aircraft, it went on to fly over a hundred sorties.
WG: Yes, that's right.
BW: I think the crew pictured here, unless you recognise any of them, are from the end of the tour, because there's quite a number of –
WG: I don’t think I’ve seen this. Yes, here you are.
BW: - bomb markers on the side, there, to indicate the number of sorties.
WG: May I just show this to Laura? You can come over, it's all right. That's, our flight engineer drew that, and I stood, er, I stood, this is the front of the aircraft, as you'll appreciate and I stood beneath the aircraft here. I stood on a [slight pause], what do you have with Scotch to drink?
Laura: Tonic?
WG: Tonic. I stood on a Schweppes, an empty Schweppes tonic box and held the paint, held the point, no, the pint, held the paint up like this, while he dipped it in and drew that.
Laura: Very clever, wasn't it?
WG: Yes. He was standing about here, and I was over on this side, and, yes, well, that's nice, that. And then he would, and then I held the thing, whatever he wanted, his paint, when he painted the first half of those, they were all the bombs we dropped. And then our aircraft, we were taken off, and our aircraft went on to another crew, and that was their bit that they did.
Laura: My word.
WG: Yes. Now what was in there, oh nothing. There was something in there I was going to show you. But it's not important. Sorry about that.
BW: That's alright. There's another photograph here of your skipper, stood at the back of the aircraft, which has damage to the starboard elevator plane.
WG: That’s it.
BW: And there's your turret at the back, with a hood over it. It shows some of the damage that was received to the aircraft on that particular raid over Mannheim. The holes that the shells caused.
WG: Oh yes. That's it, yes. Oh yes. Yes, that's it. That's dear old Ron Clarke. He was a Warrant Officer then. There's his Warrant Officer's rank badge, there.
BW: Yes, on his right sleeve.
WG: Pardon.
BW: On his right sleeve.
WG: That's it, yes. And of course there're the holes in the aircraft that the flak caused, that shot up at us. And that was covered up, that was covered over for some reason or other. They were usually covered over, turrets, if they bought somebody back dead, you know. They were taken down to a special hanger for any repairs to be done, and for whoever was in the turret to be taken out, and then they'd, as a mark of respect, they covered it over. Thank you. Yes. [Pause]
BW: Do you have any other information in the log book, at all? Do you have any other photos or descriptions, that you particularly recall?
WG: Oh, I don't know [unclear[ [pause]. No, all I've got is a letter from the Under-Secretary of State for Air, presents his compliments [chuckles], and by command of the Air Council, has the honour to transmit the enclosed awards granted for service during the war of nineteen thirty nine, forty five. That was that. I don't know what this is. This is, Squadron Leader in correspondence from reserve [unclear], oh, The Council, the Air Council desires me to convey to you their warm thanks for the services you have rendered to the Royal Air Force, which they greatly appreciated. They have granted you permission to retain the rank of Flight Lieutenant under the terms of paragraph three oh two of Queens Regulations and Air Council Instructions, but this grant of rank does not confer the right to any emoluments. Your attention is drawn to the attached memorandum, and also to the enclosed extract from Queens Regulations regarding the occasion on which officers who have been permitted to retain their rank, wear uniform and the badges of that rank. So I always keep that in case. I used to, I used to go on parades when I was still in the service, um, on uniform parades, but you couldn't do that unless you'd actually got permission to actually do that. Thank you. Well, sorry about all this, this is a non-issue.
BW: That's alright. That's no problem. You mentioned that you joined as a sergeant, and at some point you've obviously been commissioned.
WG: Yes.
BW: Do you recall when and how that happened?
WG: Well, I didn't actually join as a sergeant. I joined, I joined. War was declared on the Saturday. I was in the kitchen, helping my mother with getting the food ready, and war was declared at eleven o' clock on that Saturday, and I asked mother if she could lend me some money to get a ticket to go to Lincoln to volunteer for aircrew. And she, yes she did, she gave me the money. She wasn't, and of course my father was very, well, not very annoyed. He said, 'I can't understand it’, he said, ‘why don't you wait until you're called up?' [laughs] I said, 'if I wait, if I wait until I'm called up, I've been advised that they will put you anywhere in the crew, but if you volunteer, you can more or less choose if you want to be a rear gunner, or a signaller, or navigator', though I hadn't got the brains for that, navigator. But if you volunteered, you could choose more or less where you were going to fly, but if you didn't, you were put anywhere in the aircraft, where they wanted a spare bod, I mean. A Lanc would come back with, maybe with somebody killed in a turret, so they'd whip him out and stick you in, sort of thing. Filling in space, you see, that sort of thing, so that was the reason I volunteered, so that I could volunteer – I felt very happy in the rear turret. I never felt, I don't think I felt really frightened, once I got up in the air. But waking up in the morning, knowing that that night we were going on operations, I did feel a bit dodgy, but it wore off once I got on to the squadron, sort of thing. But until then I did feel a bit, I thought, well it could happen, and that sort of thing, and what's mother going to do, you know.
BW: What was your social life like on the squadron? You mentioned, you wouldn't be on op's every night.
WG: Oh no, no, The amount of flights I did, it's in the log book. Most op's was four nights in seven, following on. You see, you go on op's, and you might be on again tonight, and you were on again tonight, and you'd say, 'well, we can't be on tomorrow night'. But of course, when you woke up you found you were on, you know, I used to, even though I was not commissioned then, we did have a batman who used to look after us and keep our buttons clean, usual thing, you know, and they would do various things for you. I've forgotten what I was going to say, never mind, it doesn't matter.
BW: And did you get time to socialise? You mentioned going out to Grimsby and places, did you socialise in the mess, the Sergeants Mess?
WG: Oh yes. If you'd got a bit of money in your pocket, you would go out of the mess, into town, where'd you'd girlfriends, and that sort of thing, you know. But if you'd, if you hadn't got money, you would stay in the mess and use the facilities there, the bar, they usually specialised in supplying you with a good bar. I mean you paid for it, you had to buy the stuff, but there was a bar in every mess, and if you hadn't got much dough you would go into the bar in the mess because you could book it. And you didn't have to pay until the end of the month, when you got your money. Until then, you had to pay for it there and then.
BW: And did you socialise really with your crew? Did you go out together, or did you socialise with your other friends, who were gunners on other aircraft?
WG: Very seldom. If I socialised with anybody, which I did, it would be with those of my rank and air-crew calling. You know, air gunners would go with air gunners, and navigators with navigators, and that sort of thing. Occasionally I would go out with Clarke, my pilot. Quite often, I suppose really. He was an extremely nice bloke. And we used to go, er, we used to go, I suppose boozing. But not to get violently drunk, you know. Because it was too expensive, anyway [chuckles]. Otherwise we would never have been sober.
BW: And I believe you liked doing crosswords, as well, is that right?
WG: I beg your pardon.
BW: I believe you like doing crosswords.
WG: Yes, I used to do a crossword in the turret coming back quite often. It was advised not to in case we were followed back, and we were seen by whoever was following us back that we weren't really, that the turret wasn't moving. So that once you got up, once you left the shores of the country, you never kept your turret still. You always went backwards and forwards, up and down. So that if you were seen by enemy aircraft, they would see that you weren't asleep, you were alert, sort of thing, you know. That was the idea.
BW: And I believe that on the way back from a raid on Mannheim, when you had actually been shot up, and the searchlights were still on you, and following you away from the target, you joked that you had enough time to finish the crossword, because there was a light in the turret.
WG: No, at night time it isn't that dark. When you're flying, when you're up in the air at night, even if you're the only aircraft in the sky, the sky's still light. Not like this, but you know, you can be seen.
[Noises off as someone knocks to come in]
BW: Yes, I'll just pause the recording here for a moment.
BW: So, we're just looking through one or two things in the log book at the moment. Would you mind if I read a couple of extracts from it? Would that be alright?
WG: Say what? To read it out? Oh yes, yes.
BW: There's, [pause] firstly there is a description here for seventeenth of August nineteen forty three, a night mission to Peenemunde, codenamed Hydra. And the description underneath, which you've indicated, reads, 'six hundred aircraft, Lancasters, dropped sixteen hundred tons of high explosives. This prevented the stockpiling of five thousand V2's, which Hitler intended to be dropped on London simultaneously, in one day’. And there's a quote in a short section from the Daily Telegraph magazine which indicates that in general, the raid, Bomber Command's raid was an outstanding success, and a shattering attack on Peenemunde research and radio location factory, Germans biggest development centre for air defences. In a message to Sir Arthur Harris, Chief of Bomber Command, the Air Minister says, 'photographs prove the outstanding success of your attack’, and goes on to say, 'the accuracy of the bombing, in spite of a smokescreen, and of fierce fighting over the target, testifies to the skill and determination of your crews, and to the effectiveness of your planning and tactical methods’. And that was dated the fifth of June nineteen forty three. So that was obviously a very well defended target, but notable because of what was achieved as a result, in hitting the V2 sights. The other description in here comes from, erm, the forth of November nineteen forty four, which I think must be your second tour.
WG: Yes, yes it was the second tour, forty three, forty four.
BW: When you went on to 625 Squadron, based at Kelstern.
WG: Yes. We formed there, I think.
BW: And, I believe it was C Flight from 100 Squadron that formed 625.
WG: That's right. Yes.
BW: The description here says that it was a raid on Bokum, and that, in brackets, a jet aircraft, ME262 confirmed, and the description goes on to say, 'awarded the DFC. This was their fastest and latest fighter, and the first to be shot down at night by Bomber Command, and confirmed’.
WG: Yes, that's right. I shot it down, yes.
BW: That's particularly notable because firstly, it was a jet aircraft, and secondly, it was at night.
WG: Yes.
BW: Do you recall how you recognised the aircraft? Did it appear to be a jet, were you able to recognise it? Or was it just another target for you?
WG: Well, when I was on then, on both tours, the only [pause] if it hadn't got four engines, which were easy to pick out, even at night, because it's not as dark as all that up there at night. But it is dark, of course, but if it hadn't got four engines, you had a go at it. Because it shouldn't have been up there, sort of thing, so it must have been an enemy. Must be an enemy. You didn't recognise it perhaps as an enemy, except that it had only got two engines. Otherwise, it would have four. Which meant it was one of your own.
BW: And who saw who first? Do you think.
WG: Well exactly, yes.
BW: Who saw who first on that occasion? Did you see him?
WG: That I can't remember. I don't, I only remember being attacked maybe a couple of times, but that was in the early part of the war [pause]. It's difficult [pause]. Yes it’s, you could pick them out, quickly. But even if you didn't, you still fired at them, because you couldn't take the risk. If you didn't fire at them and they were enemy, they fired at you, it would be too late because they might hit you. But it was better to take a chance, and sometimes a wrong chance. On occasions your own being shot down. That has happened. I don't know how it was proven, but it all comes out at, it all comes out when you come back, and you're interrogated. And you really are interrogated, I mean, you don't stand a chance, even if you want to, to shoot a line or tell a load of lies, because they'd soon find out, the way they interrogate you. They aren't aircrew themselves, they're ground crew, and really, really trained for that job of sorting out the truth from the shooting a line business.
BW: And so when you landed, how soon after landing would you be debriefed?
WG: Straight away. You'd be taken in transport straight away. You wouldn't even speak to your ground crew, be allowed to speak to your ground crew. The, er, as soon as you landed, the first people you spoke to were the ground crew, the ground crew, er, oh dear, questioning you, interrogating you [pause].
BW: And were you debriefed as a crew together? Or were you debriefed individually?
WG: You were all put in the debriefing room, and each aircrew department were briefed by their own people. And then you were together briefed as a crew. And it was there to make sure there was no line-shooting, you know. Well, I suppose it was, that's what it was done for. They could easily say, well you're telling us this story, but your mate is telling us this story. That sort of idea, you know.
BW: By line-shooting, you mean telling them something inaccurate.
WG: Telling lies. Yes, telling lies and lies that could never happen, you know. You were boosting up your bravery perhaps, I suppose. If that's the word, yes. I don't know if you could say that many of us were brave. It was just one of those things. You'd volunteered to do it and you were there, so you'd got to do it, but I don't think that I looked upon it as bravery, I looked upon it as being a bloody idiot for being there [laughs].
BW: What I'd just like to do now, is just to show you a list of the crew, and you've talked about Ron Clarke, and there's your name at the bottom, this is when you were on 100 Squadron.
WG: Oh yeah. That's right.
BW: Yeah? And there's one or two other names you've briefly mentioned. Are there any particular instances or things you would remember about each of those men that you flew with?
WG: There's Ron Clarke. I think Clarke got a second DFC, but I'm not sure. Bennett got a DFM, that's right. Flight Engineer. Sidell, Jim Sidell. Well, Jim Sidell was killed, the navigator, so he got nothing. Wheeler, the bomb aimer, didn't get anything. Easby, the wireless operator, didn't get anything. Simpson didn't get anything. And then there's myself, yes. No, that was the crew. And er, what was the question, what did you ask me?
BW: Do you remember anything other about the other members of the crew, anything else about them? What sort of chaps they were?
WG: No, we didn't. I don't remember any of us really teaming up when we weren't flying, and going out together. We used to sort of go on our todd, so if we got up to something we didn't want too many people to know [laughs]. Which was my idea, anyway. I don't know about Clarke, But no, Clarke didn't, he’d be doing something. He'd be studying, I expect. He was a studing type [unclear]. Easby's very ill now. I don't know if he's still living. I intend to phone up and speak to his wife, but-
BW: Do you know if Harry Bennett is still alive?
WG: Bennett, Bennett. Where's Bennett's name here? Bennett, yes, Flight Engineer. No I don't actually. I don't even know, I don't even know where Bennett came from.
BW: I believe he came from Preston. In Lancashire.
WG: Now that's a point, yes. Somewhere up North. Yes, he was a north country chap. The Flight Engineer. He was a good bloke. He could, if something went wrong, he would get out of his seat up front, next door to the pilot, and walk down the aircraft with his tool kit, and if anything was wrong, and he could do something there, he would stay down there and mend it, and do all that sort of thing. He was a very brave bloke [coughs].
BW: Do you recall how he got his DFM?
WG: Who?
BW: Bennett.
WG: Bennett. No, no I can't. No.
BW: There's a description that when you were over Mannheim one night, and because you were heavily hit by the flak, it severed the flying controls to the ailerons.
WG: Oh yes, so it did.
BW: And there was a lot of vibration going through the flying controls, which meant the pilot couldn't handle the aircraft properly.
WG: That's right. That's it.
BW: And the story goes that Bennett took out his penknife, and bearing in mind you were probably at five thousand feet at night over Germany and France at the time, apparently he took out his penknife and severed the starboard trim control cables.
WG: That's right, he trimmed the controls, that's right. I don't know if it was his penknife, but he did sever controls, yes, which steadied the aircraft, and it was, well everybody was, we all were scared when this, when the aircraft was really shaking, you know. And then it suddenly stopped, and after, we realised that dear old Bennett had done that. He'd gone down and put his, put his breathing apparatus thing on, and stopped the vibrating.
BW: That's quite a thing to have done.
WG: Well, yes.
BW: Firstly, to know what to do, and then to be able to see it and cut it.
WG: Yes, yes. Yes. It doesn't say anything there, but I think Bennett was decorated as well. There were, there were, there were three of us decorated to my knowledge, I think he could have been the fourth one, but I'm not really sure. But three of us were decorated, and as I say, I think he was the fourth one, but actually, getting down and stopping the vibration, which it was thought could have prevented the aircraft being flown properly [coughs] or safely. Safely was the word, not properly. Same thing.
BW: And the other description that I just wanted to read on the back of the log book that you've got here; on the tenth of January nineteen forty five there's a description in here from a Squadron Leader, which looks like a Flight Commander of 626, in relation to your proficiency and assessment says, 'this', oh.
WG: This officer?
BW: 'This officer [pause] that knows his job, which he does well, this officer that knows his job, which he does well, put up a splendid show whilst on this', I can't make out the last word, but it says underneath, 'awarded the DFC'. Does that description-
WG: Which bit? Oh, 'whilst on the squadron'. Whilst on the squadron, yes. What does it say there, then?
BW: It says, 'Our officer, that knows his job, which he does well, puts up a splendid show whilst on this squadron. Awarded DFC'.
WG: Oh, I see. Yes.
BW: That would be your second one.
WG: That's right, yes.
[Pause}
Laura: You’ve not drunk your tea, Pops.
WG: Pardon?
Laura: Your tea
WG: Pardon?
Laura: Your cup of tea?
WG: Oh yes, my cup of tea. Oh there's a cup of tea, look.
BW: From these tours, then, what happened after, towards the end.
WG: Sorry?
BW: From, after completing these two tours, or three tours, because you completed a hundred operations, didn't you?
WG: Yes, I think so. Something like that. Yeah, well two and a half tours.
BW: And what happened after that? When you, when the war ended, and you stayed in service, but you went out to India and the Far East.
WG: Oh yes, I did, yes, Yes, I went out to, I went out to Delhi, and Calcutta, and Bangalore. Erm. I wasn't instructing. I can't think what I was doing. I wasn't lecturing. Well, I was lecturing in Bangalore, but not for very long. I asked to be taken off because I wasn't any good at it. I was, you know, if the blokes you were instructing weren't sort of, didn't cotton on, I used to get bad tempered, so it was no good [long pause]. Yes, looking back, they were good days. When you're there, they're not, really. You wonder, why did I do it? [pause]
BW: And when the war ended, and you'd been in India, what then happened? You came back and you left the Air Force at some stage, did you?
WG: Yes. I came back from India. I was, where was I, I think I was in Calcutta then. Oh yes, that's what annoyed me, was that when I went out there, I flew out there and was there a fortnight, and when I came back, I didn't come back quickly in an aircraft, I came back on a boat, and that took about three to four weeks to get back to the country, which I thought was rather bad. Because they flew me out there quickly, and then it took a long time to get me back home.
BW: They wanted you out there quickly, but didn't want you back home so fast [chuckles]. And did you come home to get married, and raise a family after that?
WG: Yes, I came home and, I don't know, yes, I came home, what did I do [pause], I don't know where I met Betty. Oh, we met, yes, I was with a group of blokes somewhere, and we saw a group of WAAFs, and we teamed up with these WAAFs, and I went off with mine. I don't know what happened to the others, but I never met them again, but I went off. I forget where we went, and we stayed together for some time. She was , she was a plotter. She used to plot enemy aircraft, and that sort of thing. In Bomber Command. And, I went to Bomber Command for a while, and asked to be taken away, but until then, that was where we met each other [Pause].
BW: And when did you get married?
WG: That's a point [pause].
BW: Was it soon after the war? Or was it a few years after?
WG: No, the war was still on, I think. Is my log book here? Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. I don't know if it tells me in here. I don't know, I must, I don't know when I got married [pause and paper rustling]. 'Slightly above average', and, 'above average'. That's slightly above. No, I don't know. [More paper rustling]. What was I looking for? 'Screen, after twenty sorties, second tour.'
Laura: Pops. I think you got married on the thirteenth of April, it was a Friday, and I think it was nineteen forty five. Would it be?
WG: Oh, nineteen forty five.
Laura: I think. It was forty four or forty five, I think. Before you went to India.
WG: Oh, that's right, before I went to India, wasn't it.
Laura: Yes
WG: Yes [pause]. November forty four, Bokum. Oh yes. Oh, I don't know [pause].
BW: When you left the service, what did you go on to do then?
WG; Well I, er, before the war I joined the firm that my father was the secretary for, at Kings Lynn. A timber importing firm, Patrick and Thompson’s. And I was going out to, I was going out to India. We had a branch in India. In, where was it, Bangalore, no, not Bangalore, oh I don't remember now. And I don't quite know what I did. I didn't do what I expected to do, or what they said I was going to do and I think that the way the war was going, it was felt that soon it going to end, so it was a pretty cushy time for us all. Because we weren't, there wasn't very much to do really, and I didn't know whether to stay in or not, and I wasn't keen on going back to my father, to the firm where my father was, so I stayed in. And I was going to get, I hadn't got a permanent commission then. I was on, not a part-time commission, I forget what the word was for it, but it wasn't a regular commission, and I thought, well, if I'm going to stay in the service, I must get a regular commission, or else they can get me out any time. But with a regular commission, provided I'm playing it straight, I haven't got to bother about a job, because I'd got a job. And it was quite well paid. I was a Flight Lieutenant then. And when I went to Bangalore, I was promoted to Squadron Leader, and then when I came back, when I came back, I was demoted to my previous regular engagement commission. It wasn’t an active one. But then I decided that with how things were going, I wasn't very keen. I was getting into spots of bother, and that sort of thing. I was made a personal assistant to an Air Vice Marshall, which was a bit of a bind because you're always on duty, you know. You could suddenly be in bed, and your batman would come in, and give you a shake, and say,' the old man wants you’, and you could get up at any time of the day. Yes, at any time of the day and night. Because if you'd been flying at night, you'd be asleep during the day, and you'd have to go down to see what he wanted, and all that sort of thing. And his wife would, many times when I was in their house, she would come in and say, 'Geoffrey, just nip down to the butchers will you, and get so and so’, that sort of thing, you know. That wasn't my cup of tea, really, not what I'd joined to do [laughs]. Walking back with strings of sausages round me neck [laughs].
BW: Well, I think you've been very open, and it's been a great pleasure to listen to you, sir, and to all your experiences, so I want to thank you on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre for doing that, and it's probably an appropriate place to leave your reminiscences, with a string of sausages round your neck [laughs]
WG: Thank you very much indeed.
BW: Thank you.
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Interview with Geoff Green
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Brian Wright
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-09-11
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AGreenWG150911
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01:34:43 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
William Green was born in Kings Lynn in Norfolk and joined the Royal Air Force at the outbreak of war, when he was 17 and a half, becoming a rear gunner on Lancasters and eventually rising to the rank of squadron leader. He tells about going to help form 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern and his training for rear gunner, which included some navigation and aircraft recognition. William tells of how he was sent on an instructor course to train new recruits however he admits he did not have the temperament to do this for very long. In 1944 he was awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross for shooting down the first Me 262 aircraft, whilst coming home from an operation to Mannheim. It was the first confirmed shooting down of this particular aircraft and it was during a night operation. William tells about a particularly bad operation to Mannheim, when he helped with a badly injured bomb aimer, being coned by searchlights and coping with anti-aircraft fire. He also recalls a flight where the aircraft was hit and flying controls to the ailerons were severed, meaning the pilot had trouble controlling the aircraft. The flight engineer picked up a toolbox and acted on the starboard trim control cables with a penknife, allowing the pilot to land. William completed two full tours with Bomber Command, flying over 100 operations, including 55 bombing operations on Germany alone, and his aircraft was nicknamed ‘Phantom of the Ruhr’. He tells the story of how he helped with the painting of the nose art. Towards the end of war, William was in India with Transport Command, particularly in Delhi and Calcutta.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Germany--Mannheim
India
India--Kolkata
India--New Delhi
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
100 Squadron
1656 HCU
28 OTU
625 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
coping mechanism
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Me 109
Me 262
military service conditions
nose art
Operational Training Unit
operations room
pilot
RAF Kelstern
searchlight
superstition
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/96/3368/ACatlingG151121.2.mp3
972a4a544e0f1ef8c50f71fc347f68c4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Catling, Gordon
Gordon Catling
B G Catling
G Catling
B Catling
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Sergeant B Gordon Catling (3005381 Royal Air Force), a poem and a list of 29 operations he completed as a rear gunner with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe during 1944 and 1945.
The collection was been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Gordon Catling and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
2015-12-28
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Catling, G
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SJ: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre my name is Sue Johnstone and the interviewee is Gordon Catling, the interview is taking place at Gordon’s home in Ipswich Suffolk on 21st November 2015. So we are recording now so it’s er just start from the beginning.
GC: Well as I said I was born in Suffolk born in Ipswich and er went to school in Ipswich and when the war broke out I was only er just turned fourteen and er I went to help in my friend’s father’s shop butchers shop I got fed up with that and I put my age up a year when I was fifteen to get a driving licence to drive a motorbike at sixteen the reason was so that I could join the fire service as a despatch rider they didn’t let me join straight away they let me go as a part time messenger boy and then I did finally get in there at the age sixteen at er that was when I was really sixteen I did manage to get in the fire service and I was a despatch rider there until 1943 when I joined the Royal Air Force, I went to ACRC at London from there we went to Bridlington for the ITW then we went on to Bridgnorth for the EATS and from Bridgnorth to Walney Island for the ATS Air Gunner School, I passed out there in er May forty four no forty three, er sorry.
SJ: That’s ok just take your time no rush.
GC: Passed out there in May forty four yes and I went on then to 14 OTU at Market Harborough where I was crewed up with four Canadians and my mid upper gunner who we’d done our training with which give us six of us in the crew for Wellington, we lost our Canadian bomb aimer and then we finally got a British bomb aimer and then from there we finished our training and we went to RAF Scampton er no sorry RAF Swinderby to do our heavy conversion on Stirlings and we met our engineer we finished out we went to Five Lane Finishing School at Syston and then in the October we got posted to 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe which is just outside of Lincoln, um we went on operations after about being there for a couple of weeks they sent us on our first operation um all I can say about it is we were looking forward to it but we were scared.
SJ: Yes
GC: And er one or two things did happen to us when we were doing a tour the first bad thing that happened to us was when we were going to Munich and the route to Munich used to be through Southern France then over the Alps then towards Munich we were flying in F for Freddy and in the middle of the going over the Alps the aircraft lost power and we stalled and of course instead of flying over we flew through them we didn’t carry on the skipper returned to base and we landed at Bardney still with a four thousand pounder on board, the next thing that happened to us was at we were bombing Politz I think Politz [unclear] and as we were leaving the target coming out there was a terrific bang we had been hit by a shell and um the intercom all went everything went the call light in the rear turret just flashed on and off and I thought that was the letter P which means parachute I was just getting myself ready to jump out of the aircraft when the bomb aimer came down and sought to see if I was all right at the end we got back from that all right, the next really bad thing we had was on 1st February 1944 we were briefed upon a placed called Seele[?] and er approximate seven o’clock night when we were just on our bombing run the rear upper gunner actually looked up and saw a bomb bay open on the aircraft above a bomb bay open with all the bombs on and he just shouted at skipper ‘Christ dive to port to port skipper’ and the cookie [?] [unclear] missed us but the incendiaries hit the side of the aircraft.
SJ: Oh gosh.
GC: And the aircraft was um a lot of incendiaries went off and they caught fire so the mid upper gunner and and the wireless operator used the extinguishers and also threw the bombs out of the aircraft ‘cos all the side of the aircraft was ripped open the rear doors gone the [unclear] gone as well and er that’s what they done and er I was looking up at the fuselage ‘cos my turret was US and ‘cos we’d lost and engine and the doors had gone and I looked up and saw something burning just outside the turret so I climbed out a bit got hold of it that was a couple of incendiaries threw them out the door just managed to get hold of them the end that wasn’t burning got back to the turret and I operated the turret by hand for the next three hours before we landed at a place called Horsham St. Faith in Norfolk just outside Norwich which was the B24 station after being there for three days we returned to Skellingthorpe and we assumed operations again nothing really happened to us much I know towards the end of tour we were I forget what town it was now we were attacked by Messerschmitts 262’s but they were so fast we just couldn’t do much about it, I enjoyed the life and we had a good crew in fact the best crew in the world I am the only survivor and I would never would say I wouldn’t missed it but wouldn’t missed it but I did you know I felt I had done something.
SJ: Yes.
GC: Um but there again I wasn’t the only one and I survived, after that I volunteered to go on to Tiger Force and I thought oh yes but instead I was sent out to India and I stayed in India.
SJ: Still in the RAF?
GC: In the RAF, came out the RAF in 1947 and been as you know I hadn’t seen civvy street a lot I stayed out the air force for a little while got fed up and went back in again I couldn’t get back on flying straight away so I was on air traffic control for a few years and then as runway controller and then I managed to get back on flying as er air load master and I finished up flying in transport command, air support command, helicopters [unclear] and then in 1970 I got grounded in Hong Kong and then I returned to England in 1971 on recruiting and then in 1973 I should have returned back on flying again on VC10’s but er didn’t [unclear] so I was grounded again and I finished up back on then recruiting then they asked for redundancies and I volunteered to come out of the Air Force in 1975.
SJ: Mmm so you did a good old time in the RAF didn’t you?
GC: Yes I did.
SJ: Yeah a good old thirty thirty odd years?
GC: Yes yes it is. Recently I’ve just been given the honour I’ll show you the paper.
SJ: Yeah.
GC: And er and I wear it.
SJ: Region DI yeah
GC: And I wore it at the Bomber Command Memorial I think I was the only one up there wearing it and a lot of people asked me what it was but er when I told them but I wear it not for myself but for the crew.
SJ: Yeah
GC: That is for our crew.
SJ: That’s it, it’s very special isn’t it yeah.
GC: [unclear]
SJ: No that’s very special.
GC: Here’s the er operations list for that raid [shuffles through some papers].
SJ: Oh I see yeah. What did you do when you left the RAF for a little while before you joined back up?
GC: Er I was I worked for a firm in Ipswich for a little while and I had a little warning I’d pack it in and then um I went on er insurance and er I had that for a little while and then I had that for a little while and then I had another little warning and I packed that in so the time I was sixty five er fifty five I was practically retired completely through ill health.
SJ: Yeah.
GC: And I ain’t worked since I’m nearly ninety odd so I wouldn’t worry.
SJ: [Laughs]. Yeah you enjoyed your time in the RAF?
GC: I enjoyed my time in the RAF and then I lost my wife in 89 and then I was on my own until 19 until 1992 when my wife now Joy she lost her husband and er she wanted some help and she managed to get hold of me and I went and helped her and of course been as we had known each other since 1942.
SJ: Gosh long time.
GC: And we used to socialise a bit with her husband and my wife and that and we got together and now we got married in 93 twenty two years ago in’t it come Friday.
SJ: Yeah.
GC: And that’s it and of course she’s never had all this trouble with her first husband Gordon he was these places sort themselves out [unclear] she’s bearing up on it and I’m proud of the way she’s taken it.
SJ: [Laughs]
GC: Ah well.
SJ: It’s good that you’ve got the history together I know you were obviously married to different people but it is nice isn’t it.
GC: Mmm oh yes we knew each other.
SJ: The memories haven’t you?
JC: Oh yes.
GC: Well she worked with my brother and everything see.
SJ: Mmm yeah.
JC: Yes I was a nurse for thirty five years.
GC: Yes.
JC: Yes.
GC: So there is not much to say really I’ve enjoyed my life and
SJ: Yes, no that’s good.
GC: I’m lucky to be alive you can say that again because we could have had that bomb on top of us and we wouldn’t be here now.
SJ: I know that was a pretty scary moment.
GC: It was yes, and er you see that was in the Canadian papers [showing a copy of the paper to SJ].
SJ: Okay yeah, you had a safe landing?
GC: Oh yeah we landed at um Horsham St. Faith in er just outside Norwich which is now Norwich Airport.
SJ: Oh okay yeah.
GC: That used to be 24 base.
SJ: So you’ve been quite all over the place in the RAF then?
GC: Mmm oh yes travelled around a bit.
SJ: Yeah you sound like you have yeah.
GC: Mmm I enjoyed it.
SJ: Yeah. What was the training like I’ve always wondered how the in war time what was your training like?
GC: Ooh I enjoyed it um especially aircraft recognition ‘cos that was one of my favourites and also pyrotechnics guns and other things.
SJ: Yes.
GC: Um I got top marks for gunnery in the Gunnery School and er as I say I always enjoyed the sort of thing I don’t know why but I never wanted to be anything else but a Warrant Office Rear Gunner I don’t know why a Warrant Officer but yes I did get Warrant Officer but that was way back after I’d finished and everything but.
SJ: Yeah that was the trade you wanted to do was it?
GC: It was during the war because I think what it was a friend of mine his brother was an air gunner was an air gunner on er Blenheims at RAF Horsham at the beginning of the war and I think this friend I don’t know why he used to talk things and maybe that’s what I want to be I didn’t want to be anything else.
SJ: No. How old was you when you joined?
GC: Well The first time I was er just seventeen I joined up and they well had the um went to Car [?] to be assessed for air crew I was okay ‘cos I put my age up six months to get there [laughs] and er somehow they found out my age and they scrubbed it all so I had to volunteer again for it again.
SJ: Oh yes.
GC: When I was it did upset me you know it wasn’t until I was nearly eighteen when I was doing it the next time and er I was on deferred service for a little while then I got called up and er I’m lucky enough to have got right through it all and I done my training and I enjoyed it always just above average and that was it.
SJ: Yes.
GC: I managed to keep above average all the time.
SJ: That’s good.
GC: Because that was the thing that I did enjoy doing.
SJ: And you were obviously good at it?
GC: I had I used to be able to strip a Browning 303 down and assemble it again blindfolded that’s how I used to really love it.
SJ: Mmm well when you find your love for it it’s interesting.
GC: Yes its something.
SJ: You do well at it don’t you yeah.
GC: Yes I was [unclear] it’s gone now and as I say everything I do anything that’s for my crew.
SJ: Is that how you feel about doing interviews and things?
GC: Well I do you see I, I met five of our crew after the war in 1946 I met the engineer in India, in 1989 at the unveiling of the Birchwood Memorial failed to return 50 and 51 Squadron I met my mid upper gunner, now John Bridger he got the DFM for that for putting the fires out in the aircraft John and I actually done our training right from the start we even flew together when we were training at Walney Island and I saw him in 89 and that’s fifty four that was fifty years fifty four years and then in er no forty four years sorry and in er 19 no in 1999 wasn’t it?
JC: 1999
GC: We went to Canada and we stayed with the navigator and the pilot came over to see me so the three of us met up at the end in 99 and yes a lovely fortnight over there with them.
SJ: Oh lovely.
GC: And then they all died after that I come back and phoned John Bridger up and told him I’d been over and met them and er he was quite thrilled and then he died of cancer then Gordon the navigator he died was that cancer he had dear I forget?
JC: Gordon died first and then Danny.
GC: Then Danny died yeah so now I’m the only one left.
JC: And you hadn’t seen each other when we went for fifty four years.
GC: Fifty four years.
JC: Fifty four years.
GC: We still recognised each other.
SJ: Yeah I bet well you don’t go through something like that and not recognise each other do you?
JC: Amazing really because when we got to the airport they’d got he’d got our names up you know so we could see him, him and his wife fifty four years is a long time.
SJ: Yes it is, I bet it took you right back though didn’t it?
GC: It did, I even went and saw the Lancaster at Hamilton and even got in the rear turret [laughs].
JC: Yes he did.
GC: I managed to get in it.
SJ: Did you see it when it came over here the Canadian?
GC: No I didn’t see it because I as I say I am handicapped now I’m I have to walk with crutches and I can’t walk very far even with them er when we went up to Lincoln to the unveiling of the Memorial my daughter my and her partner they even got hired a wheelchair to take with us and they pushed me around a bit but that was too rough to push round in the wheelchair so I didn’t see a lot of what I would have liked to see and I am hoping and praying that when it’s open I don’t know when it will be next year some time I understand I will be able to go up again and see it properly and er I have been promised on Friday Thursday night a presenter from Radio Suffolk said he’d take me up there.
SJ: Oh brilliant [laughs]. So what was the Special Recognition Award for?
GC: For the war time.
JC: For the war time.
GC: There was three of us there was this Navy chap he’d been torpedoed and then taken prisoner of war in Japanese hands, the other one was in the Army captain in the tank corp he went to Auschwitz and he was saying about he should have come home to England but been as he was single he was he stayed there because they said all married men home first and they kept him there he went there and [unclear] it was terrible and as I say the three of us were all recommended and they said right we will give you one each and we did and that’s what we got.
SJ: Lovely isn’t it.
JC: Yes it is it was nice to see the three of them together it really was.
SJ: Had you met them before?
GC: No never seen them before.
JC: No not till then.
SJ: No.
GC: In fact I don’t see anybody near where I was living ‘cos I moved around but I did form the Air Gunners Association in Ipswich when I came out of the Air Force in 1976 I formed that and um I was chairman there for quite a while until I had as I say I had me first warning and that told me I had to pack up the things that I used to but er.
SJ: Is the Association still going here In Lincolnshire.
GC: No it’s all finished.
SJ: It’s all finished.
GC: Even the National ones gone now so um we used to go round a lot one time when we went on different little holidays we went on we went and had a look at the air gunners room at um York at Elvington isn’t it.
SJ: Elvington yes.
GC: And there is a special room there for air gunners and my beloved was looking at some photographs there and she said ‘aye come here’ I said ‘what’s wrong’ she said ‘there’s a photograph of you’ [laughs] that was a photograph that was taken at Walney Island yeah at the Air Gunners School yeah but we used but we went to most of the museums don’t we dear.
JC: We have dear yes.
GC: Yes we’ve been to them all.
JC: We fitted in quite a lot while we could didn’t we.
GC: We did when I was going around.
SJ: When you were a bit more mobile?
JC: Yes.
GC: Of course now I’m lucky I can still drive but I can’t walk.
SJ: You still get about?
GC: Oh yes.
JC: We get from A to B and
GC: Get out the car.
JC: We try and get out as much as we can don’t we otherwise you.
GC: Otherwise we’d be stagnating that’s it.
JC: Like a vegetable [laughs] you’ve got to got to keep your brain ticking over.
SJ: Well hopefully you’ll get to see up to the Bomber Command Memorial next year.
GC: I hope to get there.
JC: I hope so I hope so.
GC: ‘Cos I was disappointed when the unveiled the one in London I phoned up to see if I could get some seats to see it unveiled and the woman at the Bomber Command Association who was doing this she said ‘are you a member of the Association?’ I said ‘no not now but I was on the Bomber Command list years ago’ and she said ‘oh I’m sorry there’s no seats there’s nothing available’ and I said ‘oh thank you’ there’s so many other people there who’d nothing to do with the Royal Air Force and they had everything and I couldn’t get a seat and my daughter she is one of these types she really went to town but um I was very very disappointed over that.
JC: Yes but still you went to Lincoln.
GC: Oh we went to Lincoln we went.
JC: To see that which you really wanted to do.
GC: Yes we used to go to call in at Birchwood quite often didn’t we take a wreath out there when we used to go on these coach trips to do with Bomber Command Battle of Britain Weekend and they used to take you all round and we always used to call in at Birchwood to see the memorial there and always take a wreath up there which was from the crew but and I’m sorry I can’t even do that now.
SJ: How do you feel about the Bomber Command Centre project?
GC: I thought it’s really good and er I think that um it’s long delayed and have to and people like yourselves and other people and I think the University has got something to do with it.
SJ: Yes they have yeah.
GC: They really done themselves proud and they’ve done us proud.
JC: Also we think where it is situated when you look out you can see the Cathedral.
SJ: Yes lovely.
JC: I think that is really beautiful.
SJ: It is it’s very poignant isn’t it.
JC: Oh I think it’s lovely.
SJ: Yeah.
JC: And the thing is that it had been raining the weather had been shocking and we thought well you know what’s it going to like going and that particular day it was a beautiful sunny day it was really really lovely and I mean obviously all round it was a bit muddy and whatever because they had so much rain but the actual day itself the sun was absolutely beautiful and as you stood and looked down you could see the Cathedral and I thought how beautiful where it was situated.
SJ: It is it’s lovely isn’t it.
GC: It is it’s an ideal situation because that’s the first thing we used to see was the Cathedral you see when we came back.
SJ: Yeah that’s what they said that’s why they put it up there.
GC: Mmm I know that’s the first thing, by the way get the medal over and show her.
JC: Yes
GC: Syria
JC: We were so lucky.
GC: I don’t know if you’ve see one of these have you?
SJ: I’ve seen pictures of them not one
GC: That’s the legion of honour.
SJ: Yes it is yeah I’ve seen photos of someone who received one the other day so for I’ve seen the photo the other day but they received it a while ago yeah, would you mind if I take a photo of this?
GC: I don’t mind?
SJ: To keep to keep with your archive no I will do that will be lovely. Is there any more stories and things that you want to say?
GC: Not really as I say that the only regret I have is that I never had my pint with old Baker [laughs].
SJ: Well when you get up there next year you’ll be able to see his name up there so it’s in alphabetical order so.
GC: No don’t matter really as I say I enjoyed my life in the Royal Air Force I enjoyed what we were doing I was scared yeah this was what I was saying we were all scared and if anybody said they weren’t they were bloody liars.
SJ: Yes I can imagine mmm, scary times I bet you worked hard and played hard?
GC: Yes I did I played all sorts of sports and this was what’s the result [laughs].
SJ: What was the social life like in the RAF?
GC: Very good.
SJ: Yeah I bet you’ve got loads of stories to say there haven’t you or?
GC: No I haven’t [laughs].
SJ: Not for recording?
GC: No there not [laughs].
SJ: Okay so well thank you very much.
GC: That’s all right.
JC: You’ve got to go back to Lincoln tonight?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACatlingG151121
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gordon Catling
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:26:31 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Sue Johnstone
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jackie Simpson
Description
An account of the resource
Gordon Catling grew up in Ipswich and lied about his age to join the Fire Service as a despatch rider. He joined the Royal Air Force in 1943 and flew operations as a rear gunner with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. He was posted to India after the war and left the Royal Air Force in 1947. In 1976 he formed and became Chairman of the Ipswich Air Gunners Association.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
India
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
14 OTU
50 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
fear
Lancaster
Me 262
memorial
Operational Training Unit
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/463/8345/AAllenG150917.2.mp3
2746351851156e8d9988d59fc6e382b8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Allen, Graham
G Allen
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Allen, G
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Graham Allen.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-17
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MY: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Malcolm Young, the interviewer [sic] is Graham Allen, and the interview is taking place at Mr Allen’s home in West Hallam, near Ilkeston in Derbyshire. The date is 17th of October 2015. Well thank you very much for agreeing to be part of this oral history and the simple opening question is how did you come to be in the Royal Air Force?
GA: Yes, well I was 19 at the time, and I didn’t want to be called up, I’d rather join up and I preferred the air force to any of the other services, so I went down to the Assembly rooms, as it were in Derby, and fixed a date and they had a word with me and when I went with actual joining up part, it was of course a question of what, what are you going to do? So they asked me a few questions as usual, [inaudible] and they didn’t think my education was up to pilot, navigator, radio operator or anything like that, which I agree with them it wasn’t, I only went to a primary school not secondary school or anything like that, and I realise now that is was very necessary to have that, further education,especially in maths and things like that. So they said well you might [inaudible] flight mechanic, I said well that sounds all right, I asked what was involved, so they told me roughly what it was going to be, and I agreed that, that was probably the best way of getting in the air force. Right, well I was called, it was quite a long time before I was called up 7 months it would be about 19 [hesitation] 1940, the end of 1940 I think, 41 perhaps,
MY: Yes
GA: It was nearly the end of the year, and they eventually called me up for my, it was up to Morecombe which was a training place where we did square bashing and anything that followed up, it was Morecombe, they’d got two big bus garages where the local buses operated from and they turned those into workshops, and all down the side of the workshops were these fighter force bi-planes string bags [?] as we used to call them, so those were the things we had to train on. But before that I had to do the square bashing on the prom at Morecombe, where we were put into civilian digs, and oh parade on the promenade there, and parades in the morning and all that sort of thing, and the prom provided a good parade ground for square bashing, so we had some funny weather while we were doing it.
MY: Yes
GA: But we were alright, I quite enjoyed it. Marching round and rifle and bayonets, all that sort of business,but, then they, because I wanted to be flight engineer, not flight engineer sorry, flight mechanic, I went to one of these bus garages, to the training lot there, and they had some excellent civilian instructors and fitters, and they took us through all the basics of, [slight laugh] what I think of now as quite useless information, when you were taught to do all the rigging of the [?] airframe, by the way, [inaudible] airframe, and when they took us to do all the rigging and tightening all the wires up against templates to get the angle of incidence right, and all that sort of thing, it proved to be quite useless in the end, for us because those sort of aeroplanes had rapidly gone out of business, so anyway, we had quite useful stuff as well as that, and general mechanical details, apart from that we had exams occasionally I forget how many weeks it was now, but we were there for quite a while. [inaudible] did quite well, and they said would you like to go on a fitters course straight away, rather than go on this course as a flight engineer [?] so I took the opportunity went on and followed up with the fitters course, which we had to do more detailed work and more practical work [inaudible] After leaving there, I think that took nearly six months altogether, at the bus garages, I was posted to 152 Squadron, at Swanton Morley in Norfolk, and over there I think the first job was, chief mechanic, there was a pile of , there was a pile of Spitfire wheels in one corner of the hanger, all with tyres on, he says there’s a couple of tyre levers there I want you to get those tyres off before you, my friend and I were joined up together, we actually stayed together, there, there pair of us, worked on these wheels at the start getting all the tyres off [inaudible] So that’s, i remember the first job I had, after that we joined in with the squadron activities more and learned how to rescue the aircraft that had crashed and things like that, in fact the Spitfire was very weak on the undercarriage, and we hadn’t come across that before [?] but they easily broke, you get a bit of bad ground or something like that, because, as you know the Spitfire, they were very close together, and retracted outwards, the Hurricane was wider went inwards so the Spitfires were very, it was a vulnerable part of them, otherwise a pretty good aircraft, so my work there was inspection, partly, various parts and what we were looking for was loose controls and things like that, metal fatigue and various things like that, inspection at various times, as they did the same theses days, so most of my work was that, and dealing with these crashed aircraft that came in, that were heavily shot up and damaged and things like that. I remember one way of getting around when an undercarriage had gone, at the time we had an old costermongers cart two wheels and a flat deck like that and two handles that you could get hold of we used to rush out with this costermongers barrow and shout two six and anybody that was available to get hold of the wing tip heaved it onto this, one wing onto this costermongers barrow, we used to wheel it in like that it was quite a regular occurrence in fact. They were still operating it was well after the battle of Britain of course that they were still operating sweeps over the enemy territory and they used to come back, full of beams if they’d shot something up, rolled over the airfield, slow rolls, missing the watch office by [laughter] inches so it was quite exciting at times like that. Now let me think, I was at [inaudible] I stayed with them until, several months we were at Swanton Morley and then we moved to Coltishall which was a bigger place as you probably know, there were two squadrons there 152 and I’m not sure what the other one was, anyway [inaudible] it was going to be equipped with more modern spitfires ours were fairly basic [inaudible] all guns no cannons so they shipped us over to Northern Ireland to Londonderry Eglinton[?] in Londonderry shipped us over there [inaudible] shipped, it was very rough on the way over I remember, and when we got there [inaudible] Belfast I think the route and we spent some time in Northern Ireland at Eglington not doing very much until these new planes came in and the ferry pilots brought them in, and the first time I ever flew was, we hitched a ride back with these ferry pilots, well I’d got a 48 hour pass, it was a bit more than 48 pass, it would be about a 4 day pass and we hitched a ride in a [pause] an old biplane that took passengers [pause]it took about four or five passengers, so then the pilots came over we got talking to them, I was on duty crew that day, that’s why we met them, we were topping the tanks up and that sort of thing and they came in, they brought several new spitfires in. We cadged a lift the next day, we got permission to put our passes forward, two of us hitched a lift on the trip to England, we spent two days in England [slight laugh] back again, that was over by boat then, the Ben-My-Chree was the boat we used to sail in, it was an ex-passenger trip on the Belfast run, in fact it was still battered about because it had been at Dunkirk, there was quite a few holes in the side and things like that. [laughter]I shall always remember it having a look round and things. Anyway we got in on time, back and after about 2 or 3 days leave and we had to hitch hike the rest of the way of course the landings were up north near Ailsa Craig, I remember we passed Ailsa Craig before we landed, as I say they left us there to hitch hike down to our, Derby, and then train back, managed to get back alright without getting jankers or anything like that [laughter] so I did the rest of my life in Northern Ireland on the new Spits that came over. And then while I was there there was a message came through on the routine orders about flight engineers training you could volunteer as a flight engineer if you were a fitter or flight mechanic and it was all to do with the introduction of the four engine bombers. So I [inaudible] and volunteered [laughter] as I’ve often thought and quite soon, we were brought together we had to have an interview in Belfast, with the top brass there asking us why we wanted to be flight engineers and things like that [inaudible] applicants and that, I remember we had to stay the night there in Belfast and there were no proper beds they were sheets of plywood between two posts, in Belfast town hall they made it up for us to stay the night while we were interviewed, so that was my interview for aircrew [slight laugh] Anyway the next thing was I was posted to Aire, now if I get this right [inaudible] posting came through to [long pause] oh I know it was to go to 106 squadron when we’d finished the fitters course, posted to 106 squadron and they have a training wing there or something, it wasn’t a proper training place, they introduced these conversion units, 1654 conversion unit I think it was Swinderby, so first of all we were posted to 106 squadron who were supposed to be at Conningsby anyway we ended up at Conningsby, they said oh they left a fortnight ago, they are at Syerston now so they duly, instead of sending us to Syerston, these conversion units had just started properly and I think it was 1654 at Swinderby, I might have the number wrong, anyway we did Swinderby, posted to Swinderby and there we were crewed up as you know, they practised crewing up [?] chuck you all in a big hanger and sort it out for yourselves, and we did, eventually we arrived at the right crew, they were quite keen on people who had been flight mechanics and things like that fitters. The aircrew had been flying Whitley’s, my crew had, to get two more members a gunner and an engineer they were quite keen on people that had, had a bit of experience on aeroplanes at least,
MY: Yes
very little flying experience on a Spitfire squadron [laughter] in fact the only time I ever flew was that time when we hitched a ride. We did the course at the, forget how long it was now, it wasn’t a terrible long time six or seven weeks or something like that after we’d crewed up, we did quite a few short cross country and things like that and having never been in a war plane before I had to learn it as I went along [slight laugh] and they helped me quite a lot, they knew I knew the stuff on engines
MY: Yes
and things like that so I was able to guide them through that part of it, the rest of the crew we got on very well. My pilot was, we were all sergeants or flight sergeants, he was ex-public schoolboy and he came from London but I got on very well, he taught me a lot and I taught him a lot, and we eventually got posted to 106, and false alarm there in the first place we were able to choose the same squadron, we were originally posted so that was 106, we were interviewed by Wing Commander Gibson as you probably know [laughter]
MY: Yes
and it was quite an interview believe me, they had us in all standing to attention, he was very , very abrupt [inaudible] an arrogant man really and anyway, we got through the interview and I always remember him saying “now you wont get any leave just yet you’ve come here to fight and you either die or finish your tour and get a gong”
MY: [laughter]
and that was part of the interview with Wing Commander Gibson. Anyway we were posted to our usual [inaudible] 106 and first time I flew on operations there we had just done a few to get to know it, flights and [inaudible] the local countryside and things like that, and the new crew, as I say we taught each other a lot, anyway, while we was there I hadn’t done any, we hadn’t been on op’s and one night in January, the 17th of January they put the squadron on op’s, but we weren’t mentioned, but they called me up to the office, [inaudible] and said well we will get you together and brief you and that, right, there’s a chap gone, there’s an engineer gone sick you are in his crew now as flight engineer, just for tonight [?] and of course it was Berlin, [laughter] first time they bombed Berlin for a long time, January 1943 so I went and found my crew, my other crew quite strangers to me, their crew, I think, I don’t think he’s gone sick but from knowing the history of the crew later on I rather think he had gone LMF [lack of moral fibre]
MY: Yes
so they had to find another engineer quick. So I got my first trip as Berlin so all went well for most of the time although it was a bit of a shambles nobody could find the pathfinders flares and everybody seemed to be mixed up and when we eventually, our bomb aimer said right I think I can recognise something, there’s an airfield there its got a peculiar watch office in a horseshoe shape which I know to be Tempelhof airfield and so we dropped the bomb on there, we couldn’t find anything else to drop it on, so we started back no trouble [inaudible] but nothing to write home about and so we started back on the way back and we’d been about oh I should think it’d been about, nearly three quarters of an hour something like that on the way back after, and the shout went up fighter fighter and the usual thing and it was a JU88 coming up behind us, started firing he caught us quite unawares and all I saw was flashing lights flashing passed the cockpit and this JU88 was pumping shells at us our guns did very well though and they shot him down [pause] he came up a bit too close, and they said they claimed him as, then later on they both got immediate DFM’s when they came back. Anyway they shot this JU88 down and I seen it where it was claimed and ratified we came back, except one of the engines was on fire one of our engines was on fire some of the stuff had hit it and it was flaming a bit so I went through the process of feathering and directioning and all that [?] which didn’t work, we kept going for a bit and the pilot eventually said, well get ready to bail out because I don’t think that fire is going to stop, I think its going to spread and anyway we got parachutes ready and things like that, but it did start to go out and something had taken effect and he’d dived quite a long dive to try and get some sort of reaction from that and it seemed to work, I know that sounds like an American film but it did work in that case and the fire went out, and so we were three engines, we set back, set a course back and got back alright but we radioed one of the Manson, Woodbridge or Carnaby, which were the three emergency airfields, I think it was Woodbridge, that we went to and landed there on three, no trouble, it doesn’t matter about one engine gone on the bank, and stayed the night there, we got picked up by, someone fetched us in another Lancaster in the morning took us back, so that was my first op [laughter].
MY: Quite a baptism of fire [laughter]
GA: Really yes, actually it was but [inaudible] were really easy after that, a lot of them anyway, so eventually I went back to my usual crew, then this other crew lasted three weeks after that, they were missing, if fact I’ve got the details where they were shot down [inaudible] on the internet if you wanted to get it [?] all the details where they are buried. [pause] So my crew got pretty good and we got to know most things we were attacked together once or twice, in fact we were a bit naughty sometimes but we didn’t get badly damaged or anything like that. Ah, what’s next in my story? [laughter] I had quite an uneventful, comparatively uneventful, we had our up and downs of course, didn’t get badly damaged or anything like that, until I was near to the end of the tour I think I was about two, think I was thirty, two, two off thirty, but some of the crew had made the thirty, because they had been on these submarine spotting on Whitley’s before, they said well you might as well, you’re with them so I was put off ops at twenty eight instead of thirty and they posted me to another, one of the con units to instruct there,
MY: Which conversion unit, can you recall?
GA: Yes, let me think on, I was at one or two places, Wigsley [?] which is now called Pigsley [?] in the books, it was such a rough place, [inaudible] in the books it was that rough they called it Pigsley, it was pretty rough, Wigsley, Skellingthorpe [long pause] let me think about this, I would say look in the log book but we didn’t put the stations in the log book, I think I ought to show you the log book to start with, I’ll show it you before we’ve finished,
MY: Fine I shall look forward to that,
GA: Anyway, I was transferred to several of these conversion units probably one of them but not, and round about the end of one of the con units I was sent back apparently on ops to do a second tour on ops to 463 Australians, now they were at Waddington, which was very much of a change from Wigsley, [laughter]
MY: Yep
GA: And at Waddington they posted my old Skipper McGregor with me, we made a pair for a new scheme they’d got checking crews at so many ops I think it was five ops, ten ops, fifteen, that was it about fifteen we assumed they knew their stuff by then, they’d either be missing or they knew their stuff by fifteen ops, anyway we spent I suppose, we were both on this quite a long time we were officially on ops but we were only a pair, we were without the rest of the crew, McGregor and myself, were on this job of checking the crews at various stages they said it saved a lot of trouble, it kept them up to scratch in other words
MY: Yes
GA: And try telling Aussies they were doing something wrong wasn’t easy, it some cases [laughter] but we got on very well with them actually in the end, and we were quite respected members of the squadron, I remember they, they made me a, at one of the mess parties they made me an honorary Australian gave me a Kangaroo badge to wear, it was on the ground floor by the way, opened the window at Waddington and we got slung out onto the flower bed outside [laughter] so they called me a, honorary Australian after that. Anyway we got on very well with them in the end until they were posted back to Australia and they had to find me a crew. Before then though I’d, my skipper left me he’d gone on one of these other crews then, he went to Metheringham at 106 back at Metheringham, they moved from Syerston to Metheringham, and they posted him back to Metheringham, and he was on these Lincolns, in fact he wrote to me asking if I’d like to go back with him, but then before I’d got chance to reply they made Metheringham on the Lincolns they didn’t want flight engineers unless they’d done pilot training, well I’d never done pilot training, except on the squadrons, I flew Lancaster’s on my own quite a bit on the squadrons, when I was with an Aussie pilot which I got in the end, we were back flying prisoners of war back from France and Belgium and places like that, and it was this Aussie pilot and his crew, and he used to walk around in the fuselage [inaudible] and leave me to fly it [laughter] so I’ve flown Lancaster’s quite a lot but not taken off, or not landing, but I’ve got quite a few hours on flying the Lancaster on my own
MY: Good
GA: So, anyway that was part of the training and I was with them until they actually all of them went back to Australia, then they posted me as assistant adjunct administration Squadron something like that,
MY: Yes
GA: Which from then on I was demobbed,
MY: This story that’s in the Bomber Command Association magazine that being attacked by a 262 could you say something about that?
GA: Sorry, that was when I was with the Australian squadron, at Waddington, I did actually go back on ops real ops, and that was one of them.
MY: Yes
GA: Well we went, now my pilot was, my old pilot in that case he hadn’t left the 106, so he was, he got me as engineer because I was his engineer all the time, I hadn’t acted as one on ops until then, so they put us both back on ops the picture, the crew out of oddments that were left odd Australians that were left hadn’t gone back and some of them English, some Australian. Anyway I hardly knew the crew except the pilot, anyway we went in daylight, we had been practising two days before, formation flying, formation flying with the Lancaster squadron, its was a gaggle, they used to call it a gaggle, roughly behind each other and that sort of thing, and we were in this gaggle, and we got about I think it was about ten thousand feet something like that, it was, we had got to go quite a long way and we got over the channel or the North Sea, North Sea, we were at Hamburg, and we were, how did it happen? We were going along nicely on the way to Hamburg, and suddenly, red flares went up, that was the signal for being attacked, and we looked round and saw these, oh sorry, I am over running my story a little, I don’t know if you can do anything about that on there.
MY: Don’t worry
GA: On the way out, on the way out, we were still in England we had an engine failure, starboard outer, and it was the shaft that drives the magnetos, there is one shaft that drives two magnetos and it snapped, broke, it’d got a weak spot in it that actually sheared, so both magnetos were out, so literally it just windmilled, so I had to feather that, we decided to , skipper decided to try and keep up with them and keep up with the gaggle, but we were in a losing battle, we couldn’t keep up with the other Lancs. we were well behind by the time we got over there and on the way to Hamburg, so, this is when we were, got to Hamburg, there was 617 with us, they had got Tallboys, and they’d certain things that they had got to do there, and we were back up with 617 and made up about sixty aircraft [inaudible] we were on the tanks and things like that the rest of us, anyway we kept on to Hamburg, well behind by the time we got anywhere near it, the formation had left us, and we were on our own and we suddenly saw these red lights go up, red flares go up, ahead of us where the [inaudible] squadron was then we saw these 262’s diving down straight through the formation, and [pause] we were well behind and said well if their getting that treatment were going to be in trouble soon, anyway, one of the ones, they shot two Lancs. down well ahead of us and one of them they shot the tail straight off, they’d got cannons in these things, they’d gotfour cannons, four thirty millimetre cannons, in the nose of the 262, it must have just hit it [smacking sound] like that, about middle [?] of the door, and I should think it would be about a mile in front of us or something like that by that time, we were well behind the main squadron, and we saw this tail plane and the top bit of the door floating down like that with the gunner still in it, and the rest of the Lanc straight down without the tail, so there were two missing that day, that was one of them. So we eventually said well they haven’t seen us yet, but we went a little bit further and saw one coming towards us so we started pumping red lights out of the out of the very pistol, the wireless op had that, they had a signal, they screwed into the top by the wireless operator, and he got hold of the cartridge, anyway he used up all his red ones [laughter] and used most of the others as well, trying to attract attention , we got a supposedly an escort of mustangs, but we hadn’t seen them until then, and suddenly, way after we saw this shot coming at us and he hit us, knocked another engine out on the same side, but it didn’t set on fire fortunately, just knocked it out and he was coming round for another do, and these mustangs appeared, two mustangs, that was in my picture [?] and this 262 cleared off as soon as he saw the mustangs coming before he had another go at us I was very lucky.
MY: So did you finish your operational flying on 463?
GA: Yes, I only did, I went to Pilsen another one [pause] and err now, Pilsen, it’s in the log book [?] I can show you it, and then we finished operational flying, 463 it’s the last one I did in fact that was the end of the war. While I was still on 463.
MY: How long after that was it you were demobbed?
GA: [pause] We were sent on these postings and assistant adjutant after that, only about six months I should think, six months at the outside, yes. [pause]
MY: What did you do once you had left the RAF at the end of the war?
GA: I went back to my old firm as a rep at first, I did a full bound apprenticeship, at a printing firm and they were still in operation when I came back and they had got a vacancy for a rep that had just left them so I wrote to the manager and asked him if I could apply he said yes and he interviewed me while I was still in the RAF and I got the job as their rep when I actually left which was within about a couple of months, something like that, so the rest of the time, for most of my life i’ve spent as a rep with this printing firm.
MY: And are you local to, in the Derby area?
GA: Yes, yes, it was called Derby printers limited.
MY: Right
GA: It no longer exists but [pause]
MY: Quite a change I should imagine from the hectic life you had lead during the war.
GA: It was, I can’t remember some of it, these days my memory isn’t what it used to be, as you’ve seen me tonight, I have sort of misplaced time haven’t I? Quite a lot of it, [inaudible] by the way I didn’t have a car in those days, I had to use all railways and buses and walking
MY: [laughter]
GA: It ranged between Liverpool, Manchester, London, Northampton, sort of area I covered and eventually they bought me a car after about six months, after about, no not six months more like six years
MY: [laughter]
GA: [pause] And, I eventually became general manager at the same firm after I finished as a rep, at that time the manager was retiring and I got the job as general manager, a bit earlier because he died before he retired.
MY: If you just think back to the time while you were in Bomber Command and the places where you were stationed what sort of relationship did the people on the station have with the local villages and towns?
GA: Well at Syerston where I did most of my ops there was a farmhouse on the perimeter and when we were taxying round to go to the end of the runway there were about fifty people on the top of this farmhouse and the buildings there, never missed they were all waving flags and giving us the go ahead, and then the, of course they weren’t allowed on the actual aerodrome, there were enough people at the caravanners, you know the people who used to gather at the caravan to wave you off. There was only, they were all civilians at this place, at Syerston, and so they all gathered on all sorts of standing up places to look over, waving us off, so that was good. As regards the, we never really met them [inaudible] the local, there was never a local village it wasn’t very near a village, you used to see people in the pubs, but we used to go to Lincoln occasionally, but, as far as I could tell we had good relations, but nothing striking, Lincoln was our main town if we wanted a night out, there again I kept with my old pilot here, we got posted together, [inaudible] right to the end, and met him until he went to Metheringham.
MY: And did he survive the war?
GA: Yes,
MY: Good.
GA: He was an insurance man with the Sun Insurance, and he opted to go to South Africa, to their branch in South Africa, and he stayed there and he wrote to me quite a few years eventually it dropped off a bit [inaudible] I know that he was alive in South Africa, up to, oh, six or seven years ago and my gunner [inaudible] he got in touch with me, I found him, [inaudible] his address in England when he came over on a visit to his daughter who still lives in England and he had a word or two with him.
MY: I notice that in the book the bomber boys, you’re pictured in your flight engineers seat, was that on 106?
GA: Yes [pause] we had a drop down seat, we a drop down seat, no back on it or anything like that, so we could sit there if we wanted, we stood most of the time, take off, take off we stood up took the throttles up to the gate and push them to the gate if necessary, wheels up, flaps, used to do all that, standing up, it wouldn’t have been very good in a crash would it?
MY: And then you’d stay standing for most of the trip?
GA: Quite a lot yes, there’s a bubble on the side window of a Lancaster and if you’re in expected, or position port shall we say, fighters about you used get in there to look underneath,
MY: Amazing
GA: But that seat we used it on cross country’s and that sort of thing, if you wanted a rest, but it wasn’t much of a seat there were no safety belts on it or anything like that [laughter] [pause]
MY: What was the average sort of length of an operational sortie whilst you were flying?
GA: Well we did a lot to the Ruhr which was about, [pause] between five and six hours I should think, according to which end of the Ruhr you took, and then there’s places like [pause] let me get my log book out,
MY: Mmmm, is it in here?
GA: Its in there, much battered, that’s the medals [laughter] which I shall be wearing at the do I think
MY: I should hope so
GA: [inaudible]
MY: Yes
GA: [rustling]Right, I made this myself, [pause, rustling] Oh that’s the crew waiting to go, [pause]my skipper, and Gibson, the rest of the crew is the ones, by the way I forgot to tell you that, they took him the first night as a [inaudible]Berlin was on two nights, the first night I was on, sorry the first night the skipper was on, with that crew, and Richard Ingleman was with them doing the [inaudible] the commentary on it, while they were there [?] [inaudible] I got hold of this [inaudible] this, the bomb aimer was a navel bloke [inaudible]
MY: Oh lord
GA: [pause] I’m finding it, [inaudible, rustling] there’s a bit of damage, [pause] Very interesting pilot I used to fly with, [pause] Bonham Carter, Group Captain Bonham Carter, he was a CO at Wigsley [laughter] and he took me on my commissioning interview, and he used to come into the crew room sometimes and, anybody want a trip to Swinderby, anywhere like that, he’d say I’ve got to go and see an old pal so I want an engineer, so I used to go and fly with him sometimes [laughter] [rustling]
MY: At what stage, [cough] pardon me, at what stage were you commissioned?
GA: When we, after we’d finished ops and when we had been posted to a conversion unit
MY: Right,
GA: [pause, rustling] oh I can’t find, [pause, rustling] Stuttgart six hours, Pilsen eight fifteen, Berlin seven forty five, these are the hours, [pause] this is [pause] typical entry in the log book how many hours, how many trips in a month [pause] got a few Gibson signatures in there, you see [pause] [rustling, pause]
MY: There he is Guy Gibson, OC 106 squadron,
GA: Right
MY: This of course was, its was when he finished this tour that he went to take on 617
GA: Right, that’s right he went from there, you’ll see his signature suddenly ends, some of the flight commanders had to sign it, that was when he went to, six, 617.
MY: Did anybody else from 106 go with him?
GA: Yes, I am trying to think which one it was now, I read the book [laughter] and that sort of thing, there was only one of them, from 106 [pause]
MY: I see you’ve got Halifax as well as Lancaster
GA: Yes they
MY: In here
GA: They wanted to save the Lancaster’s for ops so they got a lot of, they were trying to make them all Lancaster squadrons so as the Halifax squadrons became redundant, they had, we had Stirling’s, Halifax’s as well as Lancs. on the conversion units [pause]
MY: Was there, much difference between them in terms of flying characteristics the Halifax and the Lancaster?
GA: The Halifax was a, it wouldn’t handle like the Lancaster at all, it was prone to getting out of awkward positions when flying, used to drop a wing and that sort of thing on it, the Lanc wouldn’t, so in the Lanc you could bring the throttles right back, pull you stick right back to, till you wait until it stalled it went down perfectly straight like that, [inaudible] gentle. The Halifax would start spinning, the Stirling it just couldn’t get up above 12,000 feet, they’d not carry very much anyway
MY: No
GA: But it was beautiful to fly in the air
MY: The Stirling?
GA: Yes, very steady [?] [inaudible]
MY: So which, presumably you did Stirling’s in your first heavy conversion unit did you?
GA: Yes
MY: Yes there we are
GA: Some of them are in there yes [pause]
MY: And was the, you hear lots of stories about the real affection that people had for the Lancaster, is that correct?
GA: Oh yes, nothing quite like it really, the others that I’d flown in, [inaudible] Stirling’s and the Halifax’s, not on operations though. We got back, by the way on that last one I was telling you about where we attacked by the 262’s
MY: Yes
GA: They shot the other engine out so we came back with two on one side, and it was perfectly alright got a bit warm the engines, but [laughter] there we, we contact the emergency airfield and that was, I think that was Woodbridge, it was one of the three big ones, it had a very wide runway and when they knew you were coming in on two engines on one side, they got a fire engine on one side ambulance on the other [laughter] [inaudible] foam all over the runway like that,
MY: But it was a successful landing was it?
GA: Yes, perfect landing, yes, that was my old pilot as well he was pretty good,
MY: This chap McGregor yes
GA: Yes
MY: Right
GA: Yes, he was a good friend and I am sorry he went to South Africa, so I didn’t see much of him after that,
MY: So would you, its funny question to ask in one sense given that were talking about war time, but did you enjoy your time, in, in Bomber Command?
GA: [pause] Yes, I did enjoy a lot of it yes, enjoyed flying and there were times when I wished I hadn’t but [laughter] but yes I did, I liked flying
MY: I note from your log book that there are a number of occasions when you would do trips on consecutive nights.
GA: Yes
MY: What did it feel like when you’d just come back from what would have been a quite traumatic experience, knowing that in twenty four hours you would be doing it all again?
GA: It was horrible really when they put them too close together like that, yes I didn’t like that part but I suppose it was necessary in those days, [inaudible] no I look back now and think how on earth did we stick it out and
MY: Well of course you were all very young men then weren’t you
GA: We were, we were
MY: Very resilient, the resilience of youth
GA: Exactly, yes, they had a different attitude to life, yes, but it, where they stick that close together it its not [laughter] it doesn’t sound right now does it?
MY: And when you got back from a sortie did you feel really fatigued?
GA: Yes, but not until you got in bed, things going round still, yes, [pause] some of the huts were, the accommodation was quite primitive in some of the [inaudible] some of the huts at Wigsley used to leak and you slept with your ground sheet on top of you, on top of your blankets
MY: [laughter]
GA: [pause, laughter] But places like Waddington and Syerston they were very good, [pause] Aye, have I taken up a lot of your time yet?
MY: I am intrigued by everything you have had to say, seriously,
GA: Are you
MY: Believe it or not we have been at it for nearly an hour and a half,
GA: Have we really
MY: And the time has literally flown
GA: Oh I haven’t dried up have I
MY: No you haven’t, It’s been absolutely marvellous
GA: I am afraid I have made a few mistakes, in timing like I did when I made a mistake in the last daylight we where things happened, and of course id you’d have said six months before that you’ve got to go and bomb Hamburg in daylight, [laughter] don’t be daft, it shows how the war deteriorated, because I mean I’d never seen a 262 before, neither had anybody else that I know
MY: Well they moved pretty fast as well didn’t they
GA: Oh yes, [laughter] but evidently, I don’t know who it was now I don’t think it was one of our squadron that got its tail shot off, makes you realise what fire power they’d got, I mean alright setting someone on fire, with your firepower but to see door I suppose is the weak spot of the fuselage to see it just literally chopped off like that its amazing, mmm.
MY: And presumably you have got your Bomber Command Clasp, at last
GA: [laughter] I have did you see it?
MY: I did yes, but um yes I was delighted when they finally saw sense and you know sort of
GA: Yes
MY: Gave that out, gave in to that and its, its so important it... but [pause] but you have, I mean it’s an amazing record, you’re sort of one and half tours on ops,
GA: Yes
MY: A distinguished flying medal, the Bomber Command Clasp I think its, for somebody who themselves has been a pilot in the Royal Air force its absolutely wonderful to sit and listen to things like this it really is absolutely marvellous
GA: I’m glad you were a pilot because you’ve understood a lot of what I’ve said
MY: Well of course its one of the things that attracted me to the whole project in the first place, because I have my own time, my own time in the service, I’ve always been, had a great interest in military history the air force history and to actually speak to people who were there
GA: Yes, yes
MY: Is, it so is, it’s an honour for me to be able to speak to people like you
GA: Good, I’ve got my grandson in-law is a pilot, so were following on [inaudible]
MY: Is he?
GA: He flies Hercules, and he’s now instructing on choppers,
MY: Oh right
GA: At, where they train all the navy and air force people together now
MY: What at Shorebury, at shorebury?
GA: Shorbury, yes
MY: Shorbury near Shrewsbury, oh right
GA: Yes, he’s instructor there now, and [inaudible] of lot of his flying on Hercules, to Afghanistan and that district
MY: Yes
GA: He was with the SAS team at one time, dropping them off the tail of the Hercules,
MY: I was talking to somebody the other day and we were commenting how, most, about five of the most senior posts in the royal air force, including the chief of the air staff
GA: Yes
MY: Are now helicopter pilots
GA: Are they really
MY: And that is a thing you wouldn’t have been able to say ten years ago,
GA: It is, it is
MY: but they, him his number two, another guy, Basnorth [?] the commandant of the royal air force college at Cranwell is a helicopter pilot and do you know, since the second world war, the only guy to walk round with a DFC with two bars is a helicopter pilot
GA: Really, DFC and two bars,
MY: And he won them in Iraq, and Afghanistan
GA: Oh yes
MY: he‘s now the station commander at Odiham,
GA: Ah
MY: But its quite a, I mean the helicopter fleet is, is so important nowadays, its as important, at least as important as the sharp pointy nose things that I used to fly, so it, its and its lovely to see
GA: Oh aye, aye, [inaudible] I can’t understand helicopters, he’s showed me inside one, I’ve never been in one and never been up in one
MY: Yes
GA: [inaudible]
MY: There we are,
GA: [rustling, inaudible] I was going to show you me grandson, we were together at the opening of the Bomber Command Memorial
MY: Oh right, so you’ve got a, let me take my papers away, and then we’ll be able to see, what you are doing [rustling] [inaudible] is it in there?
GA: No [inaudible]
MY: Was it in your black folder? I think what I’ll do is I’ll switch this off now
GA: Yes yes
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Graham Allen
Creator
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Malcolm Young
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-17
Format
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01:12:42 audio recording
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Pending review
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Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAllenG150917
Description
An account of the resource
Graham Allen joined the Royal Air Force aged 19. He trained as a mechanic and worked on inspection and recovery of Spitfire aircraft. He later volunteered to be a flight engineer, and flew a tour of operations with 106 Squadron. His first operation was to Berlin; they were attacked by a Ju 88 and returned on three engines. After the war he returned to work for a printing firm in Derby.
Contributor
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Linda Saunders
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1943
106 Squadron
463 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
fitter airframe
flight engineer
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Me 262
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
P-51
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Wigsley
RAF Woodbridge
runway
Spitfire
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/858/11100/AHarrisHST150909.2.mp3
0644ea5d3fae401b624fe3f915057fc0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Harris, Harry
Harry Stracan Thomson Harris
H S T Harris
Sam Harris
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Harry Stracan Thomson Harris (162261 Royal Air Force). He flew two tours of operations as a navigator with 103 Squadron and later with 105 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harris, HST
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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BW: Alright. This is Brian Wright and I’m interviewing Mr Harry Harris on Wednesday the 9th of September at 2:25 in the afternoon in his house. So, Harry, you were in the RAF, in Bomber Command. What was your rank when you left?
HH: Flight lieutenant.
BW: Ok. And start us off. Just please tell me about your home life before the war.
HH: Well in 1939 I lived in ‘Trose and I went down to London to start a chef’s course at the Westminster College for Cookery and I stayed with an aunt who lived in London. I was there during the Blitz and then my, my cousin and I didn’t agree so I was evacuated to Exeter as an evacuee.
BW: Right.
HH: But I didn’t like it at Exeter and I came back to London. Started, re-started on the course and I lived in a sort of YMCA place beside the River Thames and it was the centre of the bombing there and, but I liked it. I went out every night to watch the bombers. But then I had to leave and I found out later, my aunt had been paying for my education and she had to stop work and look after her parents. So, I had to go home and I worked for a year in a mental, the hospital of a mental asylum.
BW: And what year was that?
HH: That was in 1941. And then when I became seventeen and a half — it was 1940, I came back. And when I became seventeen and a half I volunteered as a pilot at Aberdeen. Then I went to Edinburgh about July to do the course. The tests and things. And they drilled me then as a navigator and I found out much later, when I was at the RAF flying college that if you got a certain, they did a maths test and if you got above a certain number you automatically qualified as a navigator. Under that you became a pilot or an air gunner. And we used to, when we found out we used to call them the dim pilots [laughs] because they couldn’t pass the test. But then I went to, went to London to Lord’s Cricket Ground. That was where we think we met. And then went down to Torquay. Babbacombe near Torquay, for the first course. Training course. And then from there to Eastbourne for another course and from there went to, to South Africa for our flying. We landed at Cape Town and went up to Pretoria and then down to Port Elizabeth where we did our course. Our flying course. And then passed out and got our wings. I got mine in November 1942.
BW: And this was your navigator wings.
HH: Navigator. Yes.
BW: Right. What prompted you to become a navigator? I think you mentioned earlier you wanted to be a pilot.
HH: A pilot. Yeah. Well when I went —
BW: Why the change?
HH: When I went to this board at Edinburgh. I forget what they called the board. Screening board. And we did, you know, oral interviews. We had written tests and one was a maths test and apparently that’s when the heavy bombers were coming in and they wanted navigators and so they did this by choosing above a certain percentage in the maths test. You were automatically selected as navigator.
BW: Ok. And when you went down to Cape Town for the, for the flying was that the navigational instructional part of flying?
HH: Yes.
BW: So you were put in an aircraft and learned to navigate.
HH: That’s right. Yeah. We flew in Oxfords. Yeah.
BW: Ok.
HH: At Port Elizabeth. And there used to be three u/t navigators in an aircraft. One was navigating. One was sitting beside the pilot and using the wind to find out the winds and the other one did the Astra. And —
BW: The Astra being the star navigations.
HH: Astra navigation. Yeah. And on the second last one of our course we flew out over the sea and our course commander was an ex-naval officer and we flew over the sea and we saw all these lifeboats. A tremendous number of lifeboats. We couldn’t communicate with them so we came back to Port Elizabeth and they sent out a boat and picked up all the survivors. But the next day we went out again. This time I was sitting in the front with the pilot and I saw a boat. It was a U-boat.
BW: Right.
HH: And the pilot, the South African pilot and he turned towards this U-boat and started diving. Now this U-boat came up, there was three gunners at the far end of the boat with a gun and they were firing at us and the shells were just going two or three feet above us because they weren’t allowing for us going down. So we carried a depth charge and as we got closer the three men ran towards the conning tower. As we got closed the conning tower was closed so they couldn’t get in. We dropped the depth charge and at this time we were only about fifty feet and this time we turned. There was nothing left. The U-boat had gone. And years, years later I met the course commander and, you know I asked if anything had happened about that. And he said, ‘No. They never confirmed the loss of a U-boat.’ Yeah.
BW: So you weren’t sure whether it had dived and avoided it or whether it had been hit.
HH: No. We didn’t know.
BW: There was no trace of it.
HH: No.
BW: Right. And that was just on, that was just on the training.
HH: [laughs] Yes. On training. That was our last trip. Funny. We went back to Cape Town and then, I forget where and we got on the boat again to come home. And we were in the South Atlantic when we, the ship ran into the wreckage of a ship that had been torpedoed. We lost a propeller and had to go in to New York and we got there on the 26th of December. And we were there for three weeks. Beautiful.
BW: Very good. And so, you then must have come back from America.
HH: We came back to New York.
BW: At some point.
HH: Back to Glasgow. Yeah. And then we did more flying at Wigtown on Ansons. Just to get acclimatized, you know, with the country. And then we went to the Operational Training Unit and it’s all written down there. That’s where we met the first of the crew. The pilot was Ken Murray and he’d trained in America and he wanted to fly on fighters. And when he found he was going to be flying on bombers he wasn’t a very happy chap I can tell you. But we got on well.
BW: Good.
HH: And the first day there they had to crew-up and at the end of the day there was twelve of us hadn’t crewed-up. That was two crews. So we want to the pub in Loughborough and somehow we got together and we stayed together.
BW: And this was The Golden Fleece in Loughborough. Is that right?
HH: Yeah. And the other crew that were there that night they were killed at the Operational Training Unit. They crashed on take-off and they were all killed. So if I’d gone with the other pilot I wouldn’t be here today.
BW: That’s fate isn’t it?
HH: It is. Yeah.
BW: So you were based in, in Lincolnshire.
HH: Yeah. Elsham Wolds.
BW: Or Leicestershire. About there. Is that right? At that time?
HH: Pardon?
BW: You were based around Leicestershire at that time if you were in Loughborough.
HH: At that time. Yeah. We must. We did our first operation from there.
BW: So where were you, where you were based at this point on — had you joined operations at this stage? Now you’d crewed up.
HH: No. No. We, we went. We did our flying training on Wellingtons. Wellington 1Cs. And at the end of the course we went on an operation to Dunkirk. And it’s all written down there. And when we got over the target we got hit by flak but we managed to get back home. The hydraulic system had gone. So had to wind down the undercarriage. Wind down flaps. And the next morning the engineer came and said that the shell had missed the fuel tank by three inches [laughs] And we wouldn’t be here.
BW: Wow.
HH: Yeah. He had it all. He said three inches.
BW: And so the early part of your flying career then you were flying in Wellingtons.
HH: Yeah. Wellington 1Cs. Yeah.
BW: And from then on, I mean we understand that you went on to fly Lancasters.
HH: On to Lancasters. Yeah.
BW: How many operations did you fly on Wellingtons?
HH: One. Just the one.
BW: Just the one.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And how was the change made, or the decision made for you to fly Lancasters?
HH: Well we, from the Wellingtons we went to train on Halifaxes. And then when the pilot was capable of flying the Halifax we went on to Lancasters. And then when they were satisfied that he was fit then we went to 576 Squadron, Elsham Wolds.
BW: And Elsham Wolds is also in Lincolnshire isn’t it?
HH: Yeah. Lincoln. Lincolnshire.
BW: And how did you find that change from Halifaxes to Lancasters? Was there—
HH: Oh, I loved the Lancaster. Yeah. That was, yeah.
BW: And there are more, are there the same number of crew in the Wellingtons?
HH: Yeah. Same number of crew. Yeah.
BW: Ok. So you were able to keep the same crew together?
HH: Oh yes. The same crew. Yeah.
BW: And what were the living conditions like on base at that time?
HH: Well, there was Nissen huts. I suppose we got used to them. Each Nissen hut got somehow fourteen, somehow twenty beds and you just got used to it. You had, well they just had the basics I suppose.
BW: Just a bed and blankets.
HH: Bed and blankets in them.
BW: And a stove in the middle.
HH: Yeah. Yeah there was three, I forget what they call them now. Three square things made up the mattress. Yeah. And that’s all there was. And the washing facilities were always outside. And in the wintertime there was no heating in the ablutions and so the water was freezing cold. Sometimes frozen altogether. And the heating inside the stoves [pause] well you used what you could. Logs or anything we used to use just to keep the place warm when we were there.
BW: Did you have the hut to yourself or were you sharing with another crew?
HH: We shared. Until we got to the squadron we shared with another crew. When we got to Elsham Wolds we had to wait until they got the Nissen ready. And we got the Nissen and we found out later that we had to wait because the crew that had occupied the Nissen had gone missing. And there was room for two crews actually but we only ever had the one crew in it. The losses was pretty heavy so we only ever had just the one. Just ourselves.
BW: And were you fairly close to the aircraft? Or to the mess?
HH: No. We had to get —
BW: Whereabouts on the base were you?
HH: We all had cycles. It was about a mile, a mile and a half to cycle.
BW: Each day. Just to —
HH: Yeah. Just to get up to the main part.
BW: Right.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. All the living accommodation was spread away from the airfield.
BW: Right. I’m just going to pause the recording for the moment.
[recording paused]
BW: I just paused the recording there to allow us to just put the door to and avoid any background noise. So, continuing on you were at Elsham Wolds then. You were flying Lancasters. And you were living in Nissen huts.
HH: Yeah.
BW: At the edge of the airfield. What were your, or describe for me if you would please a typical sortie for a Lancaster operation from sort of getting ready to do the operation and then flying it and then coming back. What was that like?
HH: Well we, we used to, every morning we went and got breakfast. Went up to the squadron offices and sometimes we would go ahead and do an air test and we’d wait until about lunchtime and then they would say whether the operations were on that night or not. That was usually around lunchtime. And then the briefing was with, there was a navigation briefing first. Just the navigator, the bomb aimer and the pilot there. And we got told the target, the route and I made out the flight plan. And when that was finished we went to the main operations room where the station commander, he would, all the crews were there and he would tell them where the operation was and that was the first they would know. We had known maybe half an hour, three quarters of an hour before but then they only knew then. And they went through the drill — what was happening, what the target was and any questions. And I can’t remember anybody ever asking a question [laughs] and then we went to the aircraft and took off at the allotted time.
BW: It, it’s been said at certain times that aircrew had superstitions. Were there any that you were aware of on your aircraft or in your crew?
HH: Any? Any what?
BW: Superstitions or habits or, guys would take, for example personal items with them as lucky charms. Were there any instances like that?
HH: See that picture behind you.
BW: There’s a, on the wall is a picture of, like a little gollywog.
HH: Yeah.
BW: Was that yours?
HH: Yeah. My wife, when we came back from South Africa my girlfriend, now my wife she bought me that and I wore that every time I flew. For the rest of my flying career I flew with that.
BW: And what’s —
HH: It’s downstairs.
BW: What sort of size is, is that? Is it, it must only have been a little figure was it?
HH: It was — high. Yes. It’s downstairs.
BW: So about three to four inches. Yeah Three or four inches tall.
HH: It just fitted inside the pocket. Yeah.
BW: Right. So that was your lucky charm that you took on a mission.
HH: That was my lucky charm. Yeah.
BW: It seems to have worked.
HH: The lucky charm and a box of matches in that pocket. And twenty cigarettes in the other one [laughs]
BW: About —
HH: I never ever flew again without that mascot. And I flew over nine and a half thousand hours.
BW: Wow. And did the, did your other mates have any similar things?
HH: Yeah. They had similar things but I can’t remember what they were.
BW: Right.
HH: But every one of them had a mascot. Every one [laughs]
BW: So you get into the aircraft. You get into the Lancaster and prepare. What sort of things would you start to do and the others start to do to, to get ready?
HH: Well, we, first of all we went to pick up our parachutes and Mae Wests. And then we got in a truck that took us out to the aircraft. We’d get inside and prepare. Like the pilot and the flight engineer would do all the checks. Checks. Myself and the bomb aimer, you know would get the flight plan and check all the other instruments were there. The wireless op was the same. And the air gunners, they would check all their equipment. And then it would be time to, to go to the take-off point. The take off point was a caravan and they gave a green light to take off. And beside that caravan, every time I can remember there was a crowd of WAAFs there. And airmen but mostly WAAFS would come to see us take off. And, and that, I was thinking back. That was the time that we were most frightened. Take-off time. Every time we talked it was, in case we would crash on take-off.
BW: Because the aircraft is fully loaded and fully fuelled.
HH: Fully loaded. Yeah. Had full fuel and we had a big cookie each. What was it? Two tonnes plus incendiaries. And one night we didn’t take off properly. We went through, past the end of the runway, through the fence at the end of the runway and luckily there was a quarry underneath and we went down in the quarry and came out at Brigg before we started to pull up again.
BW: So if there hadn’t been a quarry at the end of the runway — ?
HH: That was, we would have gone [laughs] That was, that was the worst one. Yeah.
BW: Wow.
HH: Yeah. That quarry saved us. And it was a long time it ever happened because we would fly over Brigg which was quite a few miles away before we started to climb.
BW: And yet the other aircraft would have been similarly fuelled and armed.
HH: Yeah but they —
BW: And they got off all right.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Don’t know what it was. No. No.
BW: So, on the flight out you’re now airborne heading towards the enemy coast. What sort of things are happening in the aircraft at this stage?
HH: Well, on the Lancasters then we had a navigation aid called Gee. You know, where we could fix our position within, you know a half of mile. But once it got outside Britain the signal faded and the Germans were jamming it anyhow. So after that you relied just on, I don’t know the Pathfinders would pass winds and you used to use these winds because they had H2S which gave a map of the ground. But the winds weren’t always accurate. Sometimes a long, long way out. And so we, we just had this Gee. That was all.
BW: And apart from that there was just dead reckoning presumably.
HH: Dead reckoning. That’s all there was. Yeah.
BW: Did you —
HH: But then we got an aircraft. It was fitted with H2S [laughs] That was towards the end and that, that was absolutely different altogether. Yeah.
BW: Made the job a lot easier.
HH: Yeah. It did. Yeah.
BW: So did you have to circle the airfield to form up?
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: Or did you meet the formation over a certain point?
HH: No. We, you were given your take-off time and the first crews took off first so, and then you had time to set course over the airfield. That’s sometimes you’d get airborne and it was twenty, twenty five minutes before you got back over the airfield for the right time to head out. And it was strongly, they put, always had the new crews on there. They should have put the older crews on that but they didn’t. They didn’t in our squadron.
BW: So you had, you had a separate take off time to be airborne.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And you then had to be overhead the airfield at a certain time to set course.
HH: Yeah. All aircraft. Well if it was fairly light you could see the other aircraft. Otherwise you didn’t.
BW: And did —
HH: And I think there were some crashes there too.
BW: And did you see much of the other aircraft throughout the rest of the sorties?
HH: No. No.
BW: Missions.
HH: Not unless they were caught in the searchlights. No.
BW: So —
HH: We did, it was all night stuff we did.
BW: So presumably then very rarely would you actually see other aircraft in the, in the formation.
HH: No. You wouldn’t. No.
BW: How did it feel then? Did it feel as part of a combined effort or did it feel pretty much as a lone crew out there?
HH: Well it just, it was just the sort of thing you did, you know. I don’t know. As I said the only time we saw other aircraft was when they were caught in the searchlights. And over a target, you know when the target was all lit up then you could see other aircraft. Usually then there was full searchlights. But no. In the darkness we never saw anything.
BW: So when you left the shores of England and you were flying out over the Sea were you able to see France or the Dutch coast at all?
HH: No. No. No. It was always dark. Always dark. Never saw the ground.
BW: Did you ever receive any attention from the flak guns on the ground below or from night fighters at all?
HH: We once had night fighters and the rear gunner, he fired his guns but then I don’t know what happened. It just disappeared. That was the only time.
BW: And so when it came to being over the target what would be happening in the aircraft then?
HH: Well, the bomb aimer would be down giving directions. He’d find the [pause] the what do you call it? [laughs] The target indicator. And it was red, blue, whatever it was. And he’d find that and he’d head towards that and give directions to the pilot — left, left, right. And then the flight engineer and the pilot were in their seats. I would get out of mine and I would stand behind the flight engineer to see what was going on. And the, then there’s bombs gone and then they had to wait because the camera would take a photograph. So it was like forty seconds I think till the bombs went down and once the photograph was taken it was bomb doors closed. I would give the pilot the next heading and off we’d go.
BW: And all this time on the run in to the target and the run out you had to keep straight and level.
HH: Oh yes.
BW: One, in order to, to allow the bombs to fall accurately but also to allow the photograph to be taken.
HH: Had to be absolutely straight and level. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Were there times when that wasn’t possible?
HH: The only times if you’d got behind another aircraft and then you’d go bumpety bump. That was awful. But when I was, later when I was in Mosquitoes and doing the bombing that was beautiful. The Mosquito could hold itself nicely. But the Lancaster, no. There was always aircraft in front. It was a bit bumpy, you know.
BW: Just because of the turbulence —
HH: Turbulence. Yeah.
BW: From the aircraft ahead. And so once you’d dropped the, dropped the bombs and turned for home what sort of things were going on then? What —
HH: Well, that was, I think that’s when we lost a lot of the aircraft but I’m not sure because the German fighters then, they were all from over the place, had gone. They knew where the target was and had gone there and there was lots and lots of fighters.
BW: So the gunners were pretty active.
HH: We could, we could see the other aircraft being shot down. We’d see the tracer bullets and this sort of thing. It’s quite a lot of, the worst one was on the Nuremberg raid where we lost ninety five. And on the way out it was a long, straight course and the fighters got up. And I was inside there, I didn’t see anything but the flight engineer was saying, ‘There’s another one,’ and the pilot said, ‘It’s only dummies. It’s only dummies. They’re just shooting dummies. There’s no aircraft there.’ And when we got back to base, at the debriefing he said, ‘And we lost an awful lot of aircraft on the way out.’ Oh [laughs] Trying to keep us from being frightened. Yeah.
BW: When, during the flight back did you begin to feel safe again?
HH: I think we felt safe all the way really. It was just we’d done the job and I was just getting back.
BW: Ok.
HH: I can’t, all I was worried about mostly was when we could pick up the navigation. Gee. You know. To be sure we were in the right place. But I, I don’t think we were. I could be wrong but I don’t think we worried too much going back. You know. It was going out. The very worst time was the take-off. That was, we all agreed that was the worst time.
BW: So once you were in the air the nerves started to settle a bit with doing your job.
HH: You were doing your job then. Yeah.
BW: So, roughly how long would each sortie or each operation have been then?
HH: About six hours. It’s all in there somewhere. Each one. About six hours I think. Yeah. But then after a while we started going to the French targets and that was, you know five hours maybe. And the very last one was on D-Day. We went to Vire Bridge in Northern France. And that was the first time that the bomb aimer had seen where the bombs landed. And two of them landed on the bridge. He was so happy we hit it.
BW: What was the name of the bridge again?
HH: Vire. V I R E.
BW: Oh. I see.
HH: Yeah. My eldest daughter’s, well she’s been going to France for years to a motorbike thing and she brought back a picture of somewhere around. There is a picture of Vire Bridge.
BW: Obviously rebuilt since your bomb aimer put two bombs on it.
HH: Yeah. Funnily enough on Mosquitoes I only once saw where the bombs dropped. It was a Cookie we carried. No, I wasn’t. Sometimes. And I can still see it. Yeah. There was a very, very wide road. A canal running along the side and a building with a massive door at the side. The bomb landed in the middle of this so it must have blown the door, must have blown the side off the factory. That’s what we were aiming for. The factory. That was the only once.
BW: And the bomb hit. It landed on the road. Or landed in the —
HH: Landed on the road. Yeah. It was halfway between the building and the canal.
BW: But it still blew the factory down.
HH: It would have. It was only about ten fifteen yards from the wall so it must have blown it right, right out. And the factory too, I hope.
BW: And when you returned to base after a successful operation what then happened? You mentioned debriefing.
HH: The debriefing. Yeah. You went in front of the intelligence officers and they, they mainly the questions, you know. They wanted to know anything and we just told them about the trip.
BW: And what sort of questions would they ask?
HH: Oh, about the Pathfinders. Did they drop the right, did they drop the right colours and that? Did you think they were in the right place? And this sort of thing. About the timing. Did you see any enemy aircraft and enemy gunfire? That was the sort of things they wanted to know. Just the defences.
BW: And once you’d had the debriefing? What? What then?
HH: Oh, we went back. Handed in our parachutes and Mae Wests and then went for a meal in the mess.
BW: How did you spend your spare time between operations?
HH: Well, we were at Elsham Wolds and it was quite, quite a long way to, Brigg was the nearest place. And Scunthorpe was beyond that. And we’d, initially we’d all go out together, all seven of us and we’d go to Brigg and drink in the pub there. And we had bicycles so we’d cycle there and cycle back. And then the pilot got commissioned so he sort of left us then and we split. We did the same as before. And then the bomb aimer and the flight engineer, they met a couple of people and they went to their home. You know and they sometimes stayed overnight if they could. And the two air gunners, they went on their bikes and they cycled all the way up to the Humber and they went together. So there was the wireless operator and myself and we just went our own way to the pub and the dance hall and back. That was it. Go to Scunthorpe. Got the train to Scunthorpe and get the last train back.
BW: And were you on ops every night or were there periods —
HH: Oh no. No. No. No. Very seldom it was two nights in a row. Sometimes there’d be a week’s gap or something. And every four days, every four weeks we had a week’s leave. But because of the losses sometimes we got leave every three weeks. Yeah. The losses were pretty heavy at the time.
BW: How did you spend your leave when you got the opportunity?
HH: With my wife. She, we lived not far apart in the village and we used to go out dancing and that sort of thing. That was all. In the summertime, well in the summertime then we had the bikes and we went biking, walking. But in the wintertime that was all there was because she was working all the time.
BW: How did you meet?
HH: Well we lived, my father and mother, my father was in the Royal Marines during the First World War and my mother was in the Women’s Royal Air Force near [unclear] in 1919. And they both lived in ‘Trose and they both went as nurses at the asylum, Montrose Royal Asylum. They both went as nurses. They met and got married and then I came along. And in that asylum, it was a small community and Mary’s father was the grieve. I don’t know, the head farmer. He was in charge of the farm. It was a great big farm. A really huge farm. So, you know, all the kids, we used to all play together and that in the grounds of the asylum. That’s how we met.
BW: And so you’d knew each other for a while before the war started and before you joined up.
HH: Oh knows, we played together and her brothers and that since we were five years old, you know, so. But it wasn’t until I was going overseas that I had a few days leave and I met her. And we just had a couple of days, you know going out and then we wrote and then it was another about fourteen months I think before we met again. Yeah.
BW: And how did you re-meet? When did you —
HH: Oh we kept writing all the time. Yeah. And then we got married in 1947 because I was going to be posted to an airfield in London, or near London. And I’d phoned the adjutant and he said accommodation was no problem. My wife would get a job. That was no problem. He guaranteed everything. So we got married. Went on honeymoon. Three days later we were going out the hotel and the porter came around and said I was wanted on the phone. I thought, ‘Oh. There’s only, there’s only the Air Ministry know I’m here.’ So I went and they said, ‘You’re posted to Singapore. You’re leaving in one week’s time.’ And so I went off to Singapore and at that time you weren’t considered married until you were twenty five. Well I was only twenty three. So it was eighteen months before she could join me.
BW: Just because of the service rules.
HH: Oh yeah. Eighteen months.
BW: So just, I’d just like to go back. You mentioned about flying Mosquitoes. At what stage during your career, your service career did you change to Mosquitoes?
HH: Well, when we finished operations on Lancasters I was posted to a Canadian run Operational Training Unit. They were flying Wellingtons. It was run by Canadians for Canadians but in this country. And the only RAF people there were the station commander, a group captain and a wireless operator. He’d done a tour of operations himself. But we were the only RAF personnel. And instead of lecturing I used to just to go up, fly with them in an aircraft with the trainees. And that was all that was done so I got fed up with this and I went and saw the station commander and said I wanted a posting. And he said, ‘No. No.’ And every Monday morning I went. In the end he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I’ve arranged for you to go before a commissioning board.’ And so myself and the wireless operator went before this commissioning board and got our commissions. And the next day I went to see the group captain [laughs] He said, ‘Now, don’t tell me.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ And a week later he, he arranged for me to go on Mosquitoes. That was good.
BW: And did you move onto that squadron on your own or were there any mates that went with you?
HH: No. Just on my —
BW: Just on your own.
HH: Just on my own. Went to the, what do they call it where you all met? The pilots and navigators. And I crewed-up with this George Nunn. He crewed-up with me. He picked me [laughs] And so we flew together. We flew on Oxfords at first during this training and then on to Mosquitoes. And then on to the squadron. And then when the war finished in Europe I had a navigator friend, he was from the West Indies and he was going to London to meet his own people. So, I went down to London with him to this pub. It was full of West Indians and, but we had a good time. And then they said that 105 Squadron, Mosquito squadron was going to start training for the Far East. I thought — oh. So, I went back to thingummybob and saw the wing commander and I said I would like to transfer to 105 Squadron. And he went up in the air because he was organising this sort of, what do they call it [pause] West Indies. A big aircraft thing. Commercial aircraft. He was going to be the boss and he was looking for people to fly. And so I kept on and he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You haven’t got a chance going by yourself. You have to find a pilot.’ Well, George wasn’t keen because he wanted to go back to his old job but when he, when he heard that he said, ‘Right. Away we go.’ So we got posted to 105 Squadron. And we were doing this, this new bombing aid they had. And we were ready. Just to be ready to go to the Far East when the war finished.
BW: But you got, you got out there it must have been late 1945 then.
HH: Yeah.
BW: In that case.
HH: Yeah. So 1945 finished with Mosquitoes and I went on the training on what they called BABS. It was a blind landing aid. And we went to various Transport Command stations and taught them how to fly this. And then I got, got married and then Singapore on 48 Squadron.
BW: And what were you flying there?
HH: Dakotas.
BW: How long were you out in the Far East?
HH: Just over two and a half years. I flew a lot to Hong Kong. India. Bangkok. A couple of times to Australia. It was quite good. A good trip. Yeah.
BW: How did you find the change from navigating in Lancasters to Mosquitoes? Both aircraft have different, slightly different reputations.
HH: Yes. Well —
BW: What was the experience like for you?
HH: The big, the big thing with the Mosquito was the space. It was the pilot sitting, like a pilot would sit, sit there.
BW: Yeah.
HH: And I would sit here [laughs] and he had all these instruments in front of him. And just down below was the bomb bay. So that, you know, after the space in the Lancaster, you know, a table this size you just had a thing you picked up like that.
BW: A notepad.
HH: It was a chart and everything there.
BW: Yeah.
HH: So it was quite different.
BW: It seems different in the sense that when you were in the Lancaster you would be working as a single navigator.
HH: Yeah.
BW: But yet, when you were in the Mosquito you would be doing two roles because you were the bomb aimer as well.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, we got trained on bomb aiming. Yeah. We got, we did our training, bomb aiming training on Mosquitoes and I remember flying over somewhere in Lincolnshire one day bomb aiming and something happened going towards the target and something happened and the bomb went. The bomb released. And [laughs] you saw it and it landed in a farm yard. So we went back and, you know reported it because there was maybe something wrong with the bombing. Anyhow, the next day we got a phone message from a farmer. He invited us all out for a drink [laughs] Because they’d gone to the farm, they’d apologised. He wanted to know who they were and he invited us all out. Not us but the whole squadron for a drink. So I don’t know what had happened. If he had insurance or something like that.
BW: Was it a practice bomb that had dropped? Or —
HH: A practice bomb. Yeah.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Fifteen pounds. You know.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And it just happened to come off the —
HH: Yeah.
BW: Off the release and into the farmyard. What sort of operations were you flying in Mosquitoes then? And how, how different were they to those on the Lancasters?
HH: Well the Mosquitoes we did, I think it was fifteen trips to Berlin. We did nineteen trips altogether and fifteen to Berlin. And it [pause] it was, I don’t know. In some ways it was easier that a Lancaster trip. We never worried we’d take-off. That never worried us. And it was just a case of getting to the target and it was a lot shorter time. Four and a half hours to Berlin and back instead of nine hours. And now, you used to get down, do the bombing and never had any problems.
BW: Were you part of the Pathfinder Force on Mosquitoes?
HH: No. No. Not the Path, no.
BW: Or were you —
HH: We were just ordinary. Yeah. No, we had the Pathfinders in front of us. They dropped the target indicators. And it was, no, it was, I don’t know it was just the two of us there sitting like this, close together. And sitting in there somewhere we left Berlin one night and we were always they always got coned by the searchlights. Every time we went there. And I just, I used to like that because I could see inside the bomb bay, you know. See the bombs and everything. We never minded. And we were coming back out one night and the searchlights, you know and it was no good trying to dodge them and suddenly the searchlights stopped. They all dropped. And I looked. There’s was a blister at the side and I looked behind and I could see lights. Red and green lights and I thought, I said to George, I said, ‘There’s some silly bugger going in there with his lights on.’ I said, I said, ‘No. He’s overtaken us. I said, ‘Direct to starboard. Go.’ And George, and they were pffft. The cannon shells came right across. And one of them took the top off the aircraft. We went down and the searchlights had come on. George got blinded and we were going whoooa and essentially —
BW: Apparently down.
HH: There were, the heavy aircraft were bombing, I forget the name of the place and we could visualise that and he turned and got the aircraft right and then looked at the altimeter and we were only about fifteen hundred feet above the ground and we’d come from twenty four thousand [laughs] Oh God. And anyhow we made it back. And it was years later when I was at the RAF flying college I was reading about, you know this thing and on that night, at that time, at that place, this German fighter that shot down a Mosquito [laughs]. I thought that’s great. It was the exact time and everything as that.
BW: If, if that’s the same account as I read about that was a raid over Potsdam. Near Berlin. Is that right?
HH: No. No. That was. We were at Berlin actually itself.
BW: Berlin itself.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And is it, was it right that the report said it was a Messerschmitt 262. It was a jet. A German jet.
HH: Yeah.
BW: So they were using those as night fighters.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And, and you were very lucky not to have put his bullets into the cockpit.
HH: Yeah. Just lucky we dived in time and just in the, oh and one, one of the bullets had gone through the tail fin. Right through the middle. The next day the ground crew there were sticking sticks through it [laughs] I thought, oh my God, that was close. Yeah. It was nice.
BW: I believe on that, on that particular raid on, as that was happening and you were spinning down you ended up upside down and you were on the, on the canopy.
HH: On the top. Yeah.
BW: So you were being pulled out of your seat.
HH: Yeah. Oh yeah.
BW: While the aircraft is upside down and you were on the canopy trying to get your parachute together. Is that right?
HH: I undid my harness to, to go down and get my parachute and open the bomb doors. Open the exit place. And it wouldn’t open. And so I got back and then I was sitting on the seat and she went pffft. Yeah. On our first Lancaster raid we never got to the target. We lost two of the engines and we had a full bomb load and a fuel load so we turned back and headed for The Wash to jettison the bombs. And the bomb aimer thought, you know, we thought well in case anything happens we’d better get ready to bale out. He couldn’t open the doors. Just, it was the pressure and that, it just wouldn’t open. So if anything had happened we couldn’t have got out. But we jettisoned the bombs over The Wash and then jettisoned some of the fuel because it was a tremendous amount of fuel we carried.
BW: But you managed to land safely.
HH: Oh yeah. Yeah. We did. Yeah.
BW: And were you ever caught in searchlights on other raids as well? You mentioned —
HH: Oh yeah. Lots of times. Yeah. Especially on Mosquitoes. Every time we went near the target they picked us up because they had a lot, a lot of searchlights then. But on the Lancaster I think there was only two or three times we got caught in searchlights. Just for a short time.
BW: Did the pilot have to take evasive action?
HH: Well in the Mosquito, we stopped because we couldn’t get out of them. They were, you know coming from all sides and it didn’t matter. On a Lancaster he could get out of them. Yeah.
BW: But you were never intercepted by fighters except for the, for the one occasion.
HH: Except for that once. Yeah. And very lucky.
BW: Were there other raids over France that you, that you recall? You mention one on the —
HH: Vire. Yeah.
BW: Vire Bridge.
HH: The one, the worst one of all was [pause] oh my memory. Starts with an M. It was the marshalling yards in the north of France. Now, what Bomber Command didn’t realise was that the Germans were sending troops up to the battlefield and the big anti-aircraft was based at this railway station. And we went in. If I remember rightly it was ninety five Lancasters from Number 1 Group. And we went in and just it was murder actually. And I think we lost forty nine. It’s all there somewhere. This stuff. Ninety five and we lost about half of them. That German anti-aircraft unit was stationed there and we were, for the Lancaster we were flying, you know at fifteen thousand feet. Which is ideal for them. Yeah. That was a tremendous loss.
BW: There’s a lot of reports I’ve seen of the German anti-aircraft fire being extremely accurate. It was always at the right height.
HH: Oh yeah. Yeah.
BW: But you never got hit yourself.
HH: No. Just that once in a Wellington. You know, that first flight. That’s the only time we got hit.
BW: You mentioned about flying on or around D-Day. Were you flying operations in support of D-Day? Do you remember anything about the build up?
HH: We didn’t know anything about it. D-Day was the 6th of June. We went out to a target in Northern France on the 5th of June but we didn’t know. Nobody knew it was about D-Day. And coming back, on the H2S on the Channel I saw the Channel was full of ships. And I said, ‘It’s the invasion. It’s D-Day,’ and we went back to, to Elsham and they said it’s D-Day in the morning and we just all laughed. And I said we saw them, you know, on the radar. And of course it was. Next day was D-Day. It was tremendous seeing all these ships. Yeah. But then we did our last trip then and that was it.
BW: And so very soon after that you finished flying on Lancasters. Just after D-Day.
HH: Yeah. On D-Day. That was our last trip. Yeah.
BW: And then you changed then to flying Mosquitoes.
HH: Now the pilot, he went back on Lancasters in ’45. Mid-upper gunner and the rear gunner, they both went back on operations ’45. But the wireless operator he just got to a squadron when the war finished. And the flight engineer, he didn’t want to do anymore because he’d got married.
BW: And did they let him? Let him —
HH: He was training. Yeah. He was. Yeah. Oh yeah. He spent his time training.
BW: But all the way through that you managed to keep together as a crew.
HH: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then we met again in 1978. It’s all written down there. It’s a long long story. It was a young chap. He went to Bristol to see the boat racing there. And he was staying the night in a pub and he saw an axe hanging up behind the bar and he asked the barman. He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I used to break up aircraft after the war. During the war and after the war. And that’s from one of the aircraft.’ And he says, ‘Oh which aircraft?’ And he said, ‘Oh it’s got on it.’ And the bloke went and found out and it was our aircraft we used to fly in. And he lived in Kent. And he went to an air gunner’s meeting and met our air gunner and said, ‘Do you know, and it was our axe.’ And so from there you know we all got together then. It’s all written down there.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Bit by bit we wrote. And then they formed the Elsham Wolds Association. That’s how they got in touch with me from there.
BW: And were there more than one squadron based at Elsham Wolds?
HH: Yeah. Two squadrons there. 576. Was it 103 Squadron, I think? Yeah. I’m not sure. I think it was 103.
BW: And were they both Lancaster squadrons?
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
[pause]
BW: And so it seems you’ve had a pretty eventful and successful career and managed to avoid the, sort of impact of anti-aircraft fire.
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: And night fighters.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And all the sort of other dangers that people experienced in, and you —
HH: I was really lucky. Yeah. Really, really lucky.
BW: Did you ever know any crews that became prisoners? That had been shot down over France?
HH: Yeah.
BW: Were any captured?
HH: I think it may be in there. If not I’ll —
BW: Ok.
HH: I tried to, there was thirty two of us passed out in South Africa. At the end of the war there was only eleven of us alive and three of these was prisoners of war. I contacted you know because like the magazines, aircraft magazines they used to print losses you know. Who was killed and that. And I used to keep a look out for it all. Yeah. There’s eleven and I met, you know I met all eleven eventually.
BW: So you’ve done a lot of work to keep track of those guys that you met.
HH: Oh yeah. Well that’s —
BW: You keep in touch with them.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And that chance reunion in a pub down south with one of your, was it a bomb aimer who saw the axe over the, over the, at the pub?
HH: No. No. It was another bloke. Just a chap who was out there.
BW: I see.
HH: He lived in Kent and he went, he went to the Air Gunner’s Association because he thought maybe somebody knows about this axe. And he was right. Our mid-upper gunner did. And so it was he was he that formed the Society at Elsham Wolds. John. He’s been here once or twice. John Wiltshire. That was his name.
BW: John Wiltshire. And is he still around? Has he passed?
HH: I don’t know. I don’t know.
BW: Right [pause] Something I’m intrigued about if I could just ask. It’s your nickname. You have a nickname. Sam. Is that right?
HH: Yeah. Well —
BW: How did that come about?
HH: Well when we were going out to South Africa on the boat we used to have drills. You know. We had rifles and bayonets. We used to do drills and one day we were doing a drill and I dropped my rifle. And the course comedian, of course he says, ‘Sam, Sam pick up thy rifle.’ That was a song that was going at the time.
BW: I see.
HH: That stuck with me ever since. ‘Sam, Sam pick up thy rifle.’ [pause] Then when I went to that Canadian OTU I got Jock then. Jock Harris.
BW: Jock Harris. And you have the same surname of course.
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: As Bomber Harris.
HH: Yeah. The RAF.
BW: Was that ever put to you? The same nickname or —
HH: No. No. No.
BW: The RAF only had room for one Bomber Harris.
HH: Yeah. Only room for one.
[pause]
BW: Are there any other sort of memorable operations or, or events that perhaps spring to mind?
HH: Let’s think. No. I think we had it very easy really. [pause] No. The first Mosquito operation was fogged-in at base. It was fogged-in and we were running out of fuel and the pilot, George, he’d seen an airfield further back so we went back. We found this airfield and we were just, just wait to land and the engine stopped. Went bump on the runway and the fire brigade and that came out and got us out, you know. Bundled us out the aircraft and left the aircraft on the runway. And Lancasters, it was a Lancaster base and they were circling around the top because they couldn’t land. So we went and got debriefed and went to the mess and were having a cup of cocoa or something and there was a great thump on my shoulders. And I looked around. It was a chap who I lived next door to, we were born within three weeks of each other. We lived next door to each for about fourteen or fifteen years and he was on the one of the Lancasters. And he said, ‘Is that your heap of wood lying out there?’ [laughs]
BW: Is that your heap of wood lying out there?
HH: Yeah.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Jim Cassell. He’d got a mighty slap [laughs]
BW: What a way to meet up after living all that time next door to each other.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And then bumping into each other.
HH: Yeah.
BW: Literally in the, in the debriefing room. Which was your favourite aircraft, do you think to fly?
HH: The Lancaster during the wartime. But after that the Britannia was a beautiful aircraft. Yeah. That was the best one. But during the war the Lancaster. Yeah.
BW: You mentioned when you went out to serve with 105 Squadron in the Far East and you continued to stay out in the Far East for about two and a half years. At what stage then did you leave the RAF and what prompted the move?
HH: Oh 1968. I went to [pause] let me see. I left 48 Squadron. Came back to this country. I did a course, instructor’s course and then I instructed people to become navigators. In two places. And then I went to a place where they were training pilots on Meteors. I was a navigation officer and all sort of things. Then I went to RAF flying college as an instructor and was there for a while. Then went on Transport Command on Hastings, Britannias and VC10s.
BW: So you pretty well stayed on multi engine aircraft.
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: All the way, all the way through. Even though when you were instructing navigators for Meteors.
HH: Yeah.
BW: You weren’t flying Meteors yourself.
HH: Oh yeah. I flew in Meteors.
BW: You were. Right. You flew Meteors as well.
HH: Yeah. I, one of the blokes, he was a Polish bloke and at that time there were at the Farnborough thing. You know flying an aircraft straight up and then it would sort of come down, you know so he said, he got me flying. He said, ‘We’re going to try that today’ [laughs] We went up and the thing toppled over backwards and I was going to, I said, ‘I’m going to eject,’ and, ‘No. No. No,’ and he pulled it out then.
BW: So instead of going up nice and vertical and coming back tail down there the same axis you fell out backwards.
HH: Yeah. That’s the last time he tried it. Yeah. And I flew with Gus Walker on Canberras at the flying college. We did a trip to the North Pole from Norway but we ran out of oxygen just about seventy miles from the North Pole and we had to come back and we descended to the oxygen level and we landed at this place in Norway, Bardufoss. And as we landed we ran out of fuel and bump. She came down with a crash.
BW: You were very lucky there again.
HH: There. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Just made it home in time.
HH: Just made it.
BW: With no fuel.
HH: Yeah. Gus Walker. He was a really nice bloke. Gus. We were up to the top there once before and the Canberra couldn’t get back in. We were going to land then further south and there was a Hastings there and no pilot except Gus and he’d never flown a Hastings before [laughs] And he says to us, he says, ‘Will it be alright if I fly it? And we said, ‘Yeah. Yeah.’ And he flew it down there. Flew it to Oslo. It was alright. One of the funny things was when we was on Britannias there was a scare over Germany where a German aircraft or something had buzzed a civil aircraft. And somehow it got arranged that newspaper people would come and fly in a Britannia and this sort of thing would be, would be happening. And I was a navigator and Gus Walker was in charge of this lot. And he came up to the flight deck and we were chatting there and forgot all the fact that everything was going through to all the passengers as well [laughs] And then I looked up and I said to the pilot, ‘That’s not the airfield. We’re at the wrong airfield. Another airfield across there.’ And then I thought oh my. And Gus Walker went back and when we landed all the press came out and then one of them come across. He said, ‘That was good. I listened to all that. That was really really good. I enjoyed that.’ But nothing came out in the papers happily.
BW: So you managed to find the right airfield eventually.
HH: Yeah. Gus Walker. Yeah.
BW: Did you come across any famous pilots in the RAF at all? There were well known guys. People like Gibson flew Mosquitoes. Did you ever come across —
HH: Douglas Bader. I met him twice. Once when he was doing the instructing on, just after the war. I met him down south somewhere. And then when I was on 48 Squadron in Singapore he, I don’t know, he came in there to the mess. I don’t know. I can’t remember. And he recognized me in the crowd and I thought [laughs] and everybody’s [pause] yeah. He was a nice bloke.
BW: Ok. Is there anything that you would like to show us on the computer at all. But I think —
HH: I think you’ve got it —
BW: It might be a case of printing it.
HH: I think it’s all on there.
BW: Ok.
HH: Wherever you have it. Yeah.
BW: Ok.
HH: It’s all there. I hope. But if there’s anything else just phone. I’ll get it.
BW: Ok.
HH: I’ll tell you about these logbook pages.
[pause]
BW: Just going to have a look at some logbook pages.
[pause]
BW: We’re just, we’re just looking at one of the logbooks. Would you just describe what it says on the citation there? It’s dated 8th of October 1946. Is that right? At the bottom there.
HH: On 8th October 1946. Yeah. Something Headquarter 46 Group. Letter reference 46 at C250 something, something dated 20th of August 1946.
BW: What does the, so it says at the top. “Incidences of avoidance by exceptional flying skill and judgement of loss or damage to aircraft or personnel.” And it says, “Flying Officer HST Harris DFC, whilst navigation instructor on an Oxford aircraft EB798 during — ”
HH: “Exercise.”
BW: “Exercise.”
HH: “On eureka.”
BW: “On eureka.”
[pause]
HH: “Eureka homings”
BW: “Eureka homings from St Mawgan.”
HH: “From St Mawgan. The starboard engine failed and was feathered by — ”
BW: “By his skill.”
HH: “In operating the radar screen he enabled his pilot to carry out the shortened BABS. Let down.”
BW: “Guidance.”
HH: “And made a good landing in conditions, bad weather and poor visibility after breaking cloud at two hundred and fifty feet with the runway immediately ahead. By his knowledge of his radio aids and his skill in the operation of these he helped his pilot to save the aircraft from —"
BW: “Damage. Saved the aircraft from damage and the crews from —"
HH: “Injury.”
BW: “Injury.”
HH: That’s a long time ago [laughs]
BW: So that —
HH: 1946.
BW: Yeah. That is a citation that was presumably made into your logbook for skill in flying and avoiding an accident and injury to crew.
HH: Yeah.
BW: That’s very unique.
HH: That’s this one here.
BW: Well done.
HH: In six —
BW: So, 608 Squadron.
HH: Downham Market.
BW: Downham Market.
HH: That’s operations. Yeah.
BW: I’ll just pause again while you look for another document.
[pause]
BW: So —
HH: This is a bit here.
BW: So, for your services you were awarded the DFC. Was that because it was standard for aircrew or —
HH: No. It’s —
BW: For people to be awarded after so many missions or was there an act of gallantry.
HH: There wasn’t anything definite. But all pilots, when they did a tour of operations, all pilots automatically got a DFC. But I did fifty operations and I suppose that’s why I got it.
BW: Because you’d done over fifty ops.
HH: Hmmn?
BW: Because you’d done over fifty ops.
HH: No. The war finished then. No. Yeah, I could have done a lot more. Yeah.
BW: It’s quite something though to have come through so many operations. As you said before particularly because so many aircrew were killed during that time.
HH: It was just less than two months ago on the television they were doing some sort of programme and they said only one aircrew member in forty [pause] only one aircrew member in a hundred was it, survived forty operations. I forget the exact number now. I know that was forty operations and there were very few people.
BW: Yeah.
HH: That had done that.
BW: Yeah. That’s quite something. That’s quite an excellent sort of achievement really.
HH: See these things here. You’ve seen them [pause] This. My navigation logs. That’s, I think, I don’t know which aircraft that is. Put that other light on.
BW: So these are on, let’s have a look.
[pause]
BW: So these navigation logs are also recorded in —
HH: Yes.
BW: Wartime service so did you have to fill out effectively two logs.
HH: Some of them. Some of them are. Not all of them I don’t think. I’m trying to see.
BW: You Ok?
HH: Yeah. Where’s the switch? Oh, it’s up here [pause] The light switch is on there.
BW: So did navigators have to fill out another log as well as their own flying log?
HH: No.
BW: For operations.
HH: No.
BW: Or was this just done as an instructor?
HH: This light doesn’t work now. Oh wait a minute. Maybe it does. No. It’s broken. That’s why it’s off. I think the bulbs gone. Yeah. It’s —
BW: It’s alright.
[pause]
BW: Ok.
HH: You’ve got that all on there.
BW: So these records are all on the disc as well.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Ok.
HH: It’ll take a lot of printing out.
BW: It looks like it. Yeah.
HH: And that’s.— [pause]
BW: Ok. I’ll just pause the recording while we look through for the documents.
[recording paused]
What I’ll do I’ll end the recording there. We’ve had a look through some documents and photographs of your time in the Far East. So all that’s left to do is, on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre is just to say thank you very much for your time Mr Harris. It’s very good of you.
HH: You’ll find a lot of things in these.
BW: Thank you.
HH: These CDs. Yeah.
BW: Yeah. We’ll arrange to get your CDs and documents copied by one of the other volunteers. They will send somebody out but they weren’t able to do that today. So we’ll sort that out for you. Thank you.
[recording paused]
BW: Very much so. Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Harris
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHarrisHST150909
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:19:59 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harry ‘Sam’ Harris grew up in Scotland and volunteered for the Air Force. He trained as a navigator in South Africa. On the penultimate day of his training he flew over a multitude of lifeboats bearing the survivors of a torpedoed ship. The next day he flew over a U-Boat above water and the pilot turned the aircraft to attack it. On return to Great Britain he was posted to 576 Squadron at RAF Elsham Wolds. After his first tour he wanted to continue to fly and was posted to a Mosquito Squadron. He discusses being attacked by a Me 262. He notes that of the thirty two men who passed out with him in South Africa only eleven were left after the war and three of those had been prisoners of war. After the war Harry stayed in the RAF and flew in a wide variety of aircraft.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Norway
South Africa
Arctic Ocean--North Pole
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Scotland--Montrose
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1944
1945
1946
105 Squadron
576 Squadron
608 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
briefing
C-47
control caravan
crewing up
debriefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
Gee
Halifax
Lancaster
love and romance
Me 262
Meteor
military living conditions
military service conditions
Mosquito
navigator
Nissen hut
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
promotion
RAF Downham Market
RAF Elsham Wolds
searchlight
service vehicle
submarine
superstition
training
Wellington