3
25
214
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/518/10384/EChadwickRLaphamR470306-0003.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/518/10384/EChadwickRLaphamR470306-0001.1.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lapham, Rosemary
R Lapham
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Lapham, R
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. An oral history interview with Rosemary Lapham, the daughter of Roy Chadwick, family correspondence, congratulations on being honoured, personal documentation as well as photographs of family, acquaintances and aircraft. The collection also contains a thank you letter from Barnes Wallis to Roy Chadwick and a note from Arthur Harris to Robert Saundby about the in-feasibility of the Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation, some conceptual aircraft drawings and other mementos.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rosemary Lapham and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2015-06-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed document
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[postmark]
[postage stamp]
Miss Rosemary Chadwick
St. Elphin’s School
Darley Dale
Matlock
Derbyshire.
[page break]
Midnight Monday
My [underlined] dear Rosemary [/underlined]
Just a little note to go with your Idetenty [sic] Card my dear & thanks for your letter.
I’m a bit fogged as I was at the Air Ministry at six this evening & drove all the way home at speed arriving at ten fifty.
I’v [sic] just had supper & will be off to bed soon.
I do hope that you do not get the G. Measles it must be awful this hot weather
London was terribly hot today & I was busy all day
[page break]
[underlined] 2 [/underlined]
I had a most interesting time during the few days I was away, visiting several aircraft works & meeting lots of my friends.
I flew in the turbine driven “Lincoln” & enjoyed it.
Glad to hear that you enjoyed the eggs, we will bring some more when Mummy & I come over to see you again
With much love from us both & a goodnight. X.
Yours ever
Daddy.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Roy Chadwick to Rosemary Chadwick
Description
An account of the resource
Note to go with identity card. Mentions he was at Air Ministry until late and had to drive home. Hope she will not get German Measles. Talks of visits and meetings and flying in the turbine driven Lincoln.
Date
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1947-03-07
Format
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Two page handwritten letter and envelope
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
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EChadwickRLaphamR470306
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cheshire
England--Sale
England--Derbyshire
England--Matlock
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
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1947-03-07
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Tricia Marshall
David Bloomfield
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Roy Chadwick
Chadwick, Roy (1893-1947)
Lincoln
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/10635/BPayneRPayneRv2.1.pdf
a90530e769feeb87faa075c28bdb865c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Payne, Reg
R Payne
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Payne, R
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. Two oral history interviews with Reg Payne (1923 - 2022, 1435510 Royal Air Force), his memoirs and photographs. Reg Payne completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. His pilot on operations was Michael Beetham. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />
<p>This collection also contains items concerning Fred Ball. Additional information on Fred Ball is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/100970/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.<a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/ball-fc/"></a></p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-03
2017-08-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BEFORE I WAS IN THE RAF
[underlined] Wartime Memories [/underlined]. Reg Payne
[deleted] 2 [/deleted] 2
I didn’t think of being killed whilst flying until I visited one or two crash sites in the Kettering area, some of them were German aircraft and I knew members of the crew had been killed when the A/C crashed.
I visited the crash site of a Blenheim Bomber which crashed in some sand pits, I rescued parts of flying clothing in the hedge row, and found there were still parts of human flesh mixed with the lambs wool.
Another aircraft crashed near a pond and the crew were all killed, bits of the Blenheim Bomber were still on the ground. A bunch of boys with caterpilts [sic] were shooting at something floating in the pond. As it came nearer to me I saw that it was, a human eye ball.
All this didn’t stop me from Joining the RAF to fly when I reached the age of eighteen yrs.
After two yrs of training as a W/OP Airgunner for two yrs I finally arrived at RAF Skellingthorpe 50 Sqdn on the outskirts of Lincoln. My brother two yrs older was also flying in the RAF, near by at RAF Fiskerton, also a W/OP, he had already flown a number of operations.
I was already a member of a Lancaster crew, and my pilot had to fly on an operation with another, before he could take his own crew on his own. After the operation was over we were glad that he had returned OK, and said that he didnt [sic] think the operation was as bad as he expected.
The next day I had a phone call from my mother to say that my brother was missing from the same operation that my pilot was taken on. She asked me if I could come home.
I visited our Squadron C.O. and asked if I could visit my mother, he refused to let me go saying that my parents would perswade [sic] me to stop flying if I did. I told him that I promised him that
[page break]
[deleted] 2 [/deleted] 3
I would come back and continue flying. My Mother and Father both told me to be very careful when I was flying so the C.O. had nothing else to say to me. Luckily later we found that the Lancaster that my brother was in exploded whilst flying and two of the crew, by brother one of them, were blown thro [sic] the perspex roof, although in a German hospital they were not killed.
After a few weeks my mother told me that Ron Boydon the fellow that I had done all my training with was reported missing from operations, followed by Arthur Johnson who I trained with. She told me that Mrs Boydon has been seen looking in peoples gate ways at night looking for her son Ron.
We didnt [sic] think much of our hut at Skellingthorpe with no washing arrangements, to do this we had to walk to the Sgts Mess some distance away.
On our first evening there Fred our Rear Gunner and myself cycled to Lincoln as we were told it was only a short bike ride.
We found a small pub called the “UNITY”,? it was quiet inside not many people in the room that we were in, just tow ATS Girls sipping their two drinks together across the other side of the room.
It was not until they got up to go that we spoke to them, they had to be in their quarters by ten o’clock, in a large house near the cathedral. We were ready to go ourselves and asked if we could walk back with them. They seemed a couple of nice girls and we arranged to meet them at an earlyer [sic] time the next night
Luckily we were not wanted for any evening duties and we were able to get away early and spend time with the two ATS girls until it was time for them to be in their billets by ten oclock [sic]
We spent time with the two ATS girls for a few weeks and both Fred and I found a close relationship with them, Fred along with Joan & myself with Ena, we all became very friendly, and met each other as early and many times as we could get away.
Returning to the large room of ours in our hut, we were
[page break]
4
surprised one evening when entering our large room that there was three extra beds in there, with lots of kit bags and luggage scattered about the room. We had three Canadian aircrew members added to our room who had just joined our 50 Sqdn.
They seemed to get lots of parcels from Canada, and told us we could help ourselves to any chocolates or fruit that we could see in the room they could not cope with it all.
However the Station Warrent [sic] Officer came in one early evening and looked around the room. He said the place looked like a rubbish tip and he would come to look at it each evening and we were not to go out until he looked to see how tidy the room was. At times he was late comming [sic] so it became late each evening for Fred and I to meet Joan & Ena, especially as they had to be back in their billets prompt at 10 Pm.
However one evening the Lancaster that the three Canadians were flying in failed to return and all their clothing and goods were taken out of the room, leaving our room neat and tidy again as it was before the Canadians moved in.
Now that our room was now so clean and tidy, the Station Warrent [sic] Officer said that he would no longer come to visit us each evening as he could see that the room would no longer be full of food parcels etc.
I never did know if the three Canadians lost their lives, but if they did all I could think was that it cost the lives of three men to allow Fred and I to go out early evening to meet our girl friends when we were not flying early evening ourselves.
Having the three Canadians possibly killed made it possible for Fred and myself to go out early and meet our ATS girl friends when we were not on duty ourselves.
Many of [deleted] Fred [/deleted] Ena’s ATS friends had lost their air crew boy friends, and never knew if he had lost his life or not
[page break]
5
Ena’s ATS friend Joan spent all her spare time with Fred Ball our Rear Gunner. Fred was killed when our aircraft was in flames and he didnt [sic] Bale Out.
Lots of Ena’s ATS friends had lost RAF Boy friends flying on operations and tried not to get attatched [sic] to them anymore.
Ena’s Mother came to Lincoln and work in the NAAFI as she was called up to do war work. She chose Lincoln to be near to her daughter Ena.
She had lodgings with a nice lady Mrs Fatchet in Winn St Lincoln. Next door to her was a young lady, that had a small baby, she had it in her arms as we watched the Lancasters flying off on another operation.
She told me that the babies [sic] father was an aircrew member that had been missing from operations for some time, and no one had had any news of him. I always felt very sorry for her as she watched the Lancasters taking off from the Lincolnshire Airfields.
When I knew we were on operations that night I would ring Ena around lunch time, and say to her, I wont [sic] be able to meet you tonight, but all being well will see you tomorrow.
She knew that we were on operations that night.
With my brother Art now a POW in Germany, only two of his crew surviving, my mother was worried what would happen to me. She already knew that our Lancaster was on fire over the Humber Estory [sic]and four members of the crew didnt [sic] have time to bale out and were killed. I went thro [sic] the clouds pulling one of the carrying handles and not the parachute release handle, luckily I pulled the correct one and my parachute opened and I made a safe landing.
We were asked to identify the four bodies in the crashed aircraft
[page break]
6
by one of the senior RAF officers, but not one of us wanted to identify the crushed up bodies in the burned Lancaster. We did’nt [sic] want to go near the aircraft.
On one of our ten operations to Berlin, a German night fighter attacked us and his bullets made a large hole in our Port wing. I thought it was smoke coming out of the large hole in the wing, but our flight Eng. said it was petrol coming from one of the large tanks in the wings.
Arriving back as far as Northamptonshire we were nearly out of Petrol and our Pilot decided to make a landing on the emergency airfield at RAF Wittering to save the extra miles to Lincoln. We circled the airfield, and were waiting for the runway landing lights to come on, expecting any time for the engines to shut down as the petrol had all been used. At last the landing lights came on and we were able to land with all the petrol now used up.
As we entered the Wittering office buildings, we heard the dance band close down and found that no one had been on duty, to turn on the Aircraft landing lights when Aircraft were in trouble and needed to land.
Returning from another of our operations to Berlin we were told to land at RAF Pocklington in Yorkshire, as there was a dense fog in the Lincoln area. We tried a few times to find the runway at Pocklington, but then were told to proceed to RAF Melborne which we found was also foggy.
After flying quite low for some time Michael found it in the fog and managed to land safely.
A large van driven by a WAAF picked us safely up and drove us to their crew rooms. In the fan she had a radio that could hear all of our aircraft calling and saying that they must land as they had little or no fuel left.
[page break]
7
One of our squadron aircraft ran out of fuel and crashed into a nearby farm house, the farmer and his wife were both killed, and only the rear gunner in the Lancaster survived. From then on all the Lancasters on the circuit trying to land were told to Head their aircraft out to sea and Bale Out, which they had to do.
The fog stayed with us for three days up in yorkshire [sic], and we could’nt [sic] return back to Lincoln. We had no washing or shaving items for three days or money to buy anything with, not even our toothe [sic] brush’s [sic] or razors to shave with, we had to stay with our lancasters until the weather improved and we could fly them back to Skellingthorpe.
We had a scare one morning, we had just landed after completing another of our operations, and taxied the Lancaster back to our usual dispersal. Michael Beetham then said to us all, OK everybody “All Switch’s [sic] off.” Before I could check all my radio and inter Comm switch’s [sic], there was a loud scraping noise like a van dragging along the side of the aircraft, followed by a heavy thud.
We all scrambled out of the aircraft and expected to see a small lorry or van firmly stuck to the side of the aircraft, but there was nothing any where near us. The Bomb Aimer went back to the Aircraft and opened the little inspection door panel that allowed him to look down into the Lancasters Bomb bay. He was shocked at what he saw.
A thousand pound bomb had been still in the bomb bay, it had not dropped with the others over the target. Its [sic] a good thing that it didnt [sic] hit its nose cap on the way down the bomb bay or we would all have been blown to pieces.
I’ve often wonderd [sic] how the bomb disposal crews got to remove the bomb without it blowing up the Lancaster.
[page break]
8
We landed early morning after a long trip to Berlin again and our ground crew asked how the aircraft had flown, we all said there were no problems with the aircraft and we all left in a hurry to get back to the Sgts Mess and get our breakfast before getting into bed and have our sleep.
After we were all awake again around tea time we were told that they wanted to show us something about our aircraft. Arriving at the dispersal point of our aircraft “B” baker” the ground crews pointed to a large hole in the port wing where a large bomb had gone thro [sic] and left a large hole you could look thro. [sic] Not only did it go thro [sic] the wing it also went thro [sic] a large petrol tank
Luckily the petrol tank was empty by the time we got to the target. There were three tanks in each wing and this tank was empty when the bomb went thro [sic] it. Had it been thro [sic] the one next to it which was full of petrol we would never have got home and finished as POW’s etc.
On one Berlin Operation as we were getting close to Berlin, I heard the engines on the Lancaster open up and felt the aircraft starting to climb. Our Bomb Aimer Les Bartlett shouted to Jock Higgins our Mid Upper Gunner and said, “Not yet Jock, wait until I say now.” I moved over to our Astro-Dome near my compartment and looked above and in front of us, and I saw straight away a German JU88 Night Fighter which had not seen us.
We flew closely underneath it and Les shouted “OK Jock NOW” They both opened up together and I could see the red hot bullets crashing into the German Heinkel Night fighters. Our Bomb Aimer bullets were being sprayed along its wing area, but I noticed that Jock’s the Mid Upper Gunner, his red hot shower of bullets were going into the cabin area where all the crew members were close together. The JU88 continued to fly steadyly [sic] on for some time whilst the bullets continued to enter the cabin area where the crew were based. After a short time after
[page break]
9
the German night fighter tipped over on its side, with smoke now coming from its engines and cabin area, as it fell lower and lower it was lost from my view.
The forward members of our crew said, that smoke and fire came from it as it plunged down to the burning city below it, and was certainly shot down.
What upset me though, that our bomb Aimer was an officer, and he received a medal for his shooting, but Jock who was only a Sgt received not even a mention.
[underlined] Frank Swinyard Navigator. [/underlined]
Frank Swinyard was a Flying Officer, we sat very close together, and we go on together very well. Frank was our Navigator. Frank and I worked together. He would ask me what stars I could see from the ASTRODOME close by me, when I told him the ones in view, I would take his sextant and read out the degrees & minutes for him to use on his Astro Graph. Also I obtained quite a number of radio bearings for him from distant Radio stations, this helped him to plot his position.
When we were diverted to another Air Base on the way home he would not worry about getting the Lancaster there, he could ask me to get him a QDM to the base, [underlined] QDM COURSE TO STEAR [/underlined] after another on or two, I could take him there.
My worst flying experience was not a bombing operation, but an Air Gunners training flight which we had over the Humber Estory [sic] part of the North Sea of course
We had our own crew of seven, plus another pilot and his two gunners, making ten men altogether.
From Lincoln we had to fly over the Humber Estory [sic] where a spitfire would join us, and in radio contact would continue to attack us whilst our two gunners would train their guns on it as it dived on them. We would then call the Spitfire Pilot & tell him that the other pilot and his two gunners were changing over and we would call him to begin attacking us.
[page break]
10
Cameras were fitted to the guns so the film could be shown after the exercise to see if the Airgunner was using the correct deflection in the attacks etc.
We had our full crew of seven on board the aircraft, along with the other pilot and his two gunners.
On boarding the Lancaster I noticed our Flight Engineer was’nt [sic] taking his parachute with him, I remember saying to him, wheres [sic] your parachute Don, and he said, it’s only a training flight Im [sic] not bothered about that.
The time of the year was January but it was a sunny day although the sea looked very cold should we ever have to land up in it one day, and I wondered, should I be wearing my Mae West. Looking down from the aircraft all I could see now was cloud, so I didnt [sic] know how far away the coast was should you have to use your parachute etc.
The other pilot and his two gunners were moving into their positions in the aircraft, and I noticed that our two gunners had now joined us at the rear of the Lancaster where we could see the other Australian pilot and his two gunners do their part of the exercise.
At the word GO. the Lancaster was taken in a very steep dive, Ive [sic] never seen one dive so steeply, but as it pulled out of its steep dive one of it’s engines burst into flames.
The pilot operated his extinguisher for the engine and for a little time we thought all was well, but after the extinguisher had finished its work, the whole wing seemed to be on fire, and Michael gave the order for all of us to abandon the aircraft. There were only two escape doors in the Lancaster, and ten men who needed to use them.
The Australian Pilot & his two gunners in the front of the aircraft started to bale out of the nose escape exit, as our Mid upper gunner Jock Higgins baled out of the rear exit, but damaged his ribs as he hit the tail plane. I tried to leave by the back exit, but the
[page break]
11
gust of wind blew me back again. I think I was given a push with someones [sic] foot that got me out of the aircraft.
As I fell thro [sic] the air there was nothing but cloud below me, and I didnt [sic] know if I was over the sea or the land.
I did a silly thing I was tugging away at the carrying handle of the parachute pack and not the release metal handle so by the time I had pulled the correct parachute release handle I had already gone thro [sic] the cloud.
A large part of the wing had broken off and was coming down behind me, I’m glad that it drifted away from me and didnt [sic] cut thro [sic] my parachute.
As I got nearer the ground I could see the coast a short distance from me, and I was drifting towards it, then there was a large crashing noise, and smoke and flame as the Lancaster crashed a few miles in land near East Kirkby Airfield and I was still drifting that way myself.
I finally landed in a large field and before I could get in a standing position I saw an RAF van coming towards me with two airmen in it. At the same time some one on a parachute coming down a short distance away landed in a dense spinney, I could hear the branches on the trees breaking as he fell thro [sic] them, I found out later it was the other Australian Pilot.
Our Lancaster had crashed close to East Kirkby Airfield, where I was taken to, there were four men in the aircraft when it crashed and I was asked if I could identify the bodies. I was told they were all crushed, and I just didnt [sic] want to look at them
Fred Ball our Rear Gunner would no longer come with me when I would visit Ena in Lincoln he had every chance to bale out the aircraft early but he didnt [sic] have the pluck to do this Jock Higgins hurt his ribs as he baled out and hit the tail plane, he spent a short time in the base hospital and made a good recovery.
[page break]
12
Following this air crash I would go into Lincoln to see Ena on my own.
Also I was introduced to Ena’s mother who was in lodgings with Mrs Fatchet in Lincoln, whilst working in one of the large NAAFI forces canteens in Lincoln.
Luckily I had plenty of time off when not flying, and during the cold winter day’s [sic] I could ride on my bike and visit Mrs Fatchet at her home in Winn St.
She always made me welcome and found me something to eat, she had a fish & chip shop next door to her so I could always pop in there during the day.
Before going on an operation taking six or eight hours flying time, after no sleep during the day, we were given Wakey Wakey tablets which we only swallowed just before we were airborne, there was no chance of a sleep during the day before going on operations, you didnt [sic] even know where the target was until the main briefing just you were airborn. [sic]
I was the wireless Operator in the crew of Lancaster LL744 VNB 50 SQDN. each morning after breakfast, if I had not been flying the night before, after breakfast I had to visit the Accumulator Store and collect two small but heavy accumulators, on my bike I would ride to our Lancaster, and replace them with the two in the aircraft. I then had to [inserted] VISIT [/inserted] the flight office and collect the form 700 and say the batteries had been changed Sign my name etc. and return the two batteries that I had replaced to the accumulator store. This had to be done by me every day unless I had been on operations the night before.
The batteries had to be changed each day, even if the aircraft had not been flown.
[page break]
13
During one operation the two gunners said how cold they were, especially the Rear Gunner.
Michael Beetham air pilot told me to see what the problem was, I had to put a portable oxygen [inserted] BOT. [/inserted] round my neck before I went down, you wouldn’t last long without one.
I could see straight away what the trouble was, the back door was open & a strong freezing cold wind was coming in.
The flight Engineer came down to help me, but together we could not close the door. There must of [sic] been a wind of over one hundred miles per hour coming thro [sic] the open door and the temp would be around minus thirty degrees.
With the help of I think the Navigator we managed to tie the door up but not fully closed, and leave a sharp knife there to cut the rope should we need to bale out.
One other night the mid upper gunner said his turret had frost all over it and he could’nt [sic] see a thing, he asked me to bring him an axe, I gave him one and he smashed the perspex from the front of his turret so he could see, luckily he had electrical clothing on and could only have the turret facing backwards.
We have a long length of rope close to the back door in the Lancaster, should a crew member loose [sic] an arm or a leg and we are three or four hours from reaching home, we could tie a torch on the wounded crew member, tie a length of rope to his parachute release handle and when passing a large German town or city push the wounded airman out the back door. His parachute would open and he would be seen with the torch and parachute. Hoping he would be rushed to a German hospital to have his life saved.
We called it The dead mans rope.
As a Wireless Operator whilst I was flying on operations I was given a frequency band on my radio to search, and if I picked up a German mans [sic] voice giving out instructions
[page break]
[underlined] 14 [/underlined]
I would tune my transmitter to this frequency, and press down my morse code key, this would transmit the sound of one of our Lancaster engines on that frequency and blot him out. A Microphone was placed against one of the engines for that reason.
To prevent to [sic] many aircraft over the target at the same time and hitting each other, we were divided into two or three waves, First, Second, or third wave, we had our own height to bomb the target and the time over the target, but after a long flight to get there we rarely arrived at our time over target, it was not unusually [sic] for an aircraft to get an incendiary bomb thro [sic] its wing whilst over the target, from an aircraft above.
Whilst over the target area a senior RAF officer would be circling the city area, he was the “Master Bomber” he would be shouting out details of which colour’d [sic] flare’s [sic] to aim at, reds or greens etc. His language at times didnt [sic] meet up to an RAF Officer.
On one operation we were told to land at St Eval Cornwall on our way home, but during our flight I received a message, which said cancel Landing instructions “Return to Base” Unfortuneately [sic] the Wing Commanders Wireless Operator failed to get this message and they landed at St Eval. The only crew to land there.
All the Sqdn Aircrew were at the airfield when the Wing Comm landed back at Skellingthorpe to Cheer him home.
At our next briefing for an operation the Wing Commander said, Wireless Operators, make sure you get all the messages broad casts not like some clot I could name that misses them. His wireless operator stood up and said. If thats [sic] what you think of me sir, you
[page break]
15
can get some other Wireless Operator to fly with you tonight, and then started walking towards the door. RAF police at the door moved to stop him leaving, but the Wing Commander said let him go.
I’m glad I was’nt [sic] the Wing Comm Wireless Operator.
The Wireless Operator had an unusual name which you could remember and looking at a long list of aircrew who lost their lives on fifty Sqdn I saw his name on the list.
After breakfast if I found I was in operations that night, I knew that our Sgts Mess Phone was disconnected and to Tell Ena that I would not be able meet her tonight I used to cycle to a nearby village and us the public Phone Box (she always knew the reason why.
On one day when operations were detailed, I found our crew were not on the list of crews taking part.
I needed a few items such as soap & toothepaste [sic] etc and cycled into Lincoln to purchase them.
I found Lincoln rather quiet whilst in the shopping area with no local aircraft flying at the time.
As it became dusk winter time, all the local airfields were preparing for aircraft take off,
Suddenly I heard a heavy Lancaster taking of [sic] from Waddington, taking off with an overload, then another one from our Skellingthorpe, also from Fiskerton & Bardney, all these Lancasters were flying with an overload of bombs and needed all the power their engines had to get them airborn. [sic]
This was the first time I had been in Lincoln City to hear all the aircraft circling round Lincoln with a heavy overload of bombs, they needed all the power their engines had, to get them airborne. The people of Lincoln didnt [sic] seem to take notice of it I suppose they were quite used to it.
[page break]
16
Ena & Joan had given Fred our Rear Gunner & I a brass Lincoln Imp which they said would bring us luck, and told us not to fly without them.
I kept mine on my flying jacket so I always had it with me when I flew. Fred often removed his from his flying jacket and wore it on his tunic when he went out at Evenings.
One evening we had attended briefing for an operation, and were on our way to our aircraft when Fred told us he didnt [sic] have his Lincoln Imp with him, On arriving at our aircraft we told a ground staff member and he said he would collect it from our billet, after we gave him the hut number, and the position of Freds [sic] bed etc. Freds [sic] Lincoln Imp was on his tunic hanging up over his bed. First bed on the left as you go in the main door.
Off went the man in his van and he returned later with Freds [sic] Lincoln Imp which he had removed from Freds [sic] tunic
We all felt better after this, and we hoped it would make Fred more careful to make sure he always wore his Lincoln Imp.
It was a month or two after this that we had to do an airgunnery exercise with some extra members of the crew, during the exercise the pilot put the Lancaster in a very steep dive, which caused one of the engines and the wing to burst into flames. The Lancaster was overloaded with ten crew members taking part. Four crew members were killed when the Lancaster crashed and sadly Fred was one of them.
My bed was next to Fred’s and I didnt [sic] have a very good nights sleep, I lay awake for some time, looking up at Freds [sic] tunic which hung close to my bed the early sun light shone over Freds [sic] bed area, his tunic was hanging up above it, and the sun was shining on a small brass item on the lapel. I could’nt [sic] believe it, it was his Lincoln Imp and he was’nt [sic] wearing it again.
[inserted] PS I still wear my Lincoln Imp. [/inserted]
[page break]
17
I think my first fear of our operational flying was the Lancaster taking off and getting airborne.
At the briefing for the operation we were usually told we would all be flying with a thousand pound overload.
With a normal all up weight of bombs in the Lancaster it took a long run along the runway before the aircraft became airborn, [sic] but when they had added another thousand pounds of bombs on the aircraft it became that bit more stressful.
As the Lancaster began its way along the runway, the Navigator would read the speed it was travelling at, it needed one hundred miles per hour before it could take off.
Some times when the pilot could see that the aircraft was not going to reach that speed at a certain position along the runway, and the gate was getting closer on the throttle control, he would say to the flight engineer, “THRO THE GATE”, and the throttles were pushed that little bit more before the aircraft started leaving the ground.
[underlined] The gate had to be moved to get [/underlined] the take off speed up to 100 miles per hour.
We had an ELSAN toilet at the rear of the aircraft, but it was not used very much when we were flying. We all had our own metal cans close by us that we could use and they were emptied into the Elsan Toilet as we left the aircraft. The Elsan toilet was at the rear of the aircraft, and to get there in flight you needed a portable oxygen bottle to breath for the journey, and for all your layers of heavy clothing, and the temperature around minus thirty degrees you could’nt [sic] take your gloves off and touch anything.
Most of our flying time over Germany was around six to eight hours. Berlin was around eight hours which our crew flew ten times. We went there three times in five days. (Nights)
[page break]
18.
In our pockets we had a bag of sweets, and a selection of money according to which country we were flying over. Also we had a map of the area that we could use should we have to bale out and find our way to safety.
If we had flying boots with high leather padding half way up to the knee, a knife would be in one of the boots so the tops could be cut off should you be shot down in Germany, or any enemy country, to make them look just like a pair of shoes, and not flying boots.
We also had water tablets in our pockets to use when selecting water from small streams, or brooks.
As the Wireless Operator I had to know the position of some of the stars, the Navigator would ask me which ones were plainly in view. I then had to use the Sextant and take a shot of the star asked for. This was taken in Degrees & Minutes and the correct time. From this the Navigator had equipment where he could plot his position
3.12.43 around lunch time Michael Beetham was instructed to take his crew to RAF Waddington to collect a Lancaster.
When we got there the Lancaster DV376 was already loaded with bombs and before we took it to our airfield, we had to go off and bomb Leipzig first, then take it to Skellingthorpe
During the operation we were attacked and damaged by a JU88, we were very short of fuel and managed to land at Wittering.
Another Lancaster from Skellingthorpe had to collect us the next day and take us back to our base Skellingthorpe whilst the Lancaster DV376 went thro [sic] repairs.
On the 29.12.43 we had to Bomb Berlin, and had a [sic] Incendiary Bomb through our Starboard Outboard Petrol tank and were lucky to get back home again.
We flew on operations to Berlin ten times, and in doing so, we lost 383 aircraft
[page break]
19
Our first three operations were to Berlin [underlined] 22.11.43 23.11.43 26.11.43 55 MISSING. [/underlined]
114 aircraft missing in our first three operations.
The inter comm system was powered by two smallish Lead Acid Batteries. Every morning, it didnt [sic] matter if the aircraft had flown or not these Lead Acid Batteries had to be replaced.
Each morning after breakfast, I as the Wireless operator, I had to visit on my bike the Battery Store. I had to collect the two batteries on my bike and cycle across the airfield where the Lancaster was parked. I had to change the batteries in the Lancaster. I then had to visit the flight offices and ask for the form 700 for our Lancaster.
I then had to sign it to say the batteries had been changed, then on my bike again I would return the two batteries that I had removed from the Lancaster to the battery store where they would be put on charge again.
This I had to do as the Wireless Operator every day, regardless of the day of the week or the weather. Even if the Lancaster had not left its parking site. The hardest job was finding the form 700.
If we were on our way back after an operation over Germany, and the weather was bad over lincoln [sic],”usually fog”. we would be diverted to another airfield which could be as much as sixty miles away from Lincoln.
To help our navigator, I would contact the airfield and ask for a QDM, a course to steer to reach them. By pressing down my morse key, the receiving station could give me a course to fly to reach their airfield, which I would then pass on to our navigator & the pilot.
[page break]
20
My Navigator was a wind finder, this because he was an experiest [sic] Navigator of around thirty years or more of age.
The winds that he found I would pass them on to 5 group, and these would be passed on to all 5 group aircraft in their half hourly broadcasts.
One evening I spent some time passing wind details to the 5 group radio people not knowing if the receiver was a man or a WAAF female.
In morse code I asked if the receiver was a male or a WAAF. I got a very short but strong answer,
In morse code I got, ([symbols]) which was a [underlined] G [/underlined] and an [underlined] S [/underlined]
The G & the S. was a short way to tell me to [underlined] get Stuffed. [/underlined]
When I attended de briefing after the operation, I asked if the 5 group radio operators tonight were male or female, and I was told they are all WAAF female operators.
All this gave us a lighter side of the serious thing we were doing in bombing cities in Germany ETC.
During our training days at RAF Cottesmore, we would be riding our bikes back to Cottesmore after an evening out at Stamford. Frank Swinyard our Navigator would ask me to point out certain stars in the sky, as he always asked me to do his astro shots for him with the sextant.
He had to make sure that I knew the star that he wanted Both he and our pilot (now Sir Michael Beetham) received the DFC. after war, but for us Sgts, there was nothing.
We always relied on my radio bearings when in trouble to get us home safely.
[page break]
21
When flying over the sea, I was taught to let my trailing aerial out, this hung down from the aircraft and [deleted] locked [/deleted] [inserted] touch’d [sic] [/inserted] the sea when the aircraft was flying at sixty feet.
If the pilot was flying over the sea and in the dark he could not see the water if he was going to ditch.
With my radio on, I would loose [sic] my signal as soon as the aerial touched the sea, and I would tell the pilot we are at 60 ft, and he would land the aircraft in the sea. We would call this ditching, “having to ditch”
When we were doing our training, flying as a crew on 14 operational unit at Cottesmore, I would tune my radio into one of the regular BBC programmes and we would all listen to some nice music, I would turn it down should our pilot want to give us instructions. Our cross country flights sometimes lasted two or three hours.
It became general practice for bomber crews to wear a white silk scarf when flying on operations, printed in black ink on the scarves [deleted] wh [/deleted] were the names of the German cities that the wearer had bombed. This went on for a short time until we heard that airmen shot down over Germany wearing one of these scarves, had one wound round their necks and hung on a lampost [sic] etc. This soon stopped us wearing them anymore.
By this time Ena my ATS girl friend and I had become very close to each other, she knew I was on operations, as I had contacted her & told her I would not be seeing her this evening.
However in the morning on the BBC news they would mention the RAF Bombing raid, then finish by saying sixty five of our bombers failed to return, and she could’nt [sic] believe it when I rang her the next day and said I will meet you again tonight.
[page break]
22
On a bombing raid to a large German city, the RAF Pathfinder Force would have arrived there and dropped marker flares for us to aim at, Greens & Reds.
Along with them would be the master Bomber, he would be in charge of the operation.
Green & Red marker flares were dropped all around the city and his voice could be heard telling us not to aim at the Reds, but hit the greens. I think what surprised me most was his bad language and his swearing.
I spoke to Michael Beetham and asked who was that man using that language over the target and he would say it was Wing Commander So & So.
I never thought that an officer such as Wing Co. would use language like that, I only heard it from Erks as we queued for our lunch.
The RAF bombers arrived over their targets in two or three different waves, each wave flew at a different height, should you be late getting over Berlin, you could have two hundred bombers dropping bombs from above. Our navigator F/O Frank Swinyard always urged Michael Beetham to get to the target on time.
There could be 500 ft between the height of each wave. One night we had a bomb dropped on us from above, it punched a large hole in one of our petrol tanks, passing thro [sic] the wing. We were lucky that the tank was empty, the petrol being used to get us to the target, should it have been the one next to it which was full, we would never have got back to Lincoln.
The wireless operator controlled the heat entering the Lancaster, you could never please all the crew. It entered the aircraft from the Engine Exhaust by the side of the Navigator, If I turned it up to please the pilot & Flight Engineer, the navigator would tap my knee and get me to turn it down a bit.
[page break]
23
[underlined] LANDING INSTRUCTIONS [/underlined]
When there was [underlined] two Squadrons [/underlined] based at the same airfield
This could involve over thirty aircraft wanting to land at their airfield, and most of them had only twenty minutes fuel left in their tanks.
[underlined] NUMBER [/underlined] 1 The first aircraft to arrive had to orbit at three thousand feet, and as he circled the airfield he would call out his position on the circuit such as “CROSS ROADS,” OR “BAKERS FARM,” “RAILWAY STATION”, then NUMBER 2 would arrive and call up and he would follow No 1 on the circuit shouting out NO 2 BAKERS FARM ETC,
After around four of five aircraft were circling at three thousand feet, number one would be told to circle at two thousand feet, but still shout his number and position on the circuit, until he was called down to one thousand feet, where he would call out, No 1 down wind, then he would call out No 1 Funnels, then No 1 “touching” “down” then No 1 clear as he left the runway
Our flying control would give the calling aircraft their number and instruct them when they could reduce their height as long as they all called there positions out whilst flying round the circuit
This would possibly go on for fourty [sic] aircraft to land. Our crews were trained to do this on night training exercises, to prevent aircraft running out of fuel whilst circling the airfield many times waiting to land.
My pilot, Michael Beetham (now Sir Michael Beetham) was told by one of the WAAF M.T. drivers that he could use one of the Commer vans on the airfield to check on the servicability [sic] of the aircraft. He asked me if I could drive a car, and on telling him NO. He then said, I have never driven a car.
[page break]
24
This came about because the Wing Comm. Spoke to Michael Beetham and said, now you have been promoted to a Flt Lt you will have the responsibility of checking the servicability [sic] of the Lancasters in “B Flight, but you can use one of the comer vans to get round the airfield. He didnt [sic] like to tell the Wing Commander that he had never driven a car before.
As the Wireless Operator I had the major hot air supply control close to my seating. Also it was close to where the Navigator spread his maps and charts to keep us on course.
The actual heat came from the flames of the port inner “Roles [sic] Royce” Merlin Engine, and were quite hot at times.
The navigator often got quite hot during checking his Course and direction, and signalled me to turn it down a bit, but after ten minutes or so the crew at the front of the aircraft complained at feeling the cold.
I could never please all of them.
Frank Swinyard FLT.LT. was our navigator, also he was a wind finder, from time to time he would find a wind & I would transmit it to our five group base
We must have had around ten aerials on the Lancaster, most of them small whip radar aerials, these had to be looked at before each flight to check that they had not been damaged by the ground crews
[page break]
25
During the bombing operations that we did to Berlin, I would look out of the astro dome and see areas of Berlin covered in the small incendiary bombs, the wide roads were plain to see running thro [sic] the city with all the buildings on fire each side of the roads.
At regular intervals the four thousand pound cookies would explode in the roads and that part of the wide road could not be seen any more, the whole area was covered in large cicular [sic] explosion areas, and the wide roads that were clear to see at the beginning of the raid, were not there anymore, just one large area of fire.
As we had no washing facilities on the site where we slept, we had to walk some distance to the Sgts mess, there we had washing and shower facilities. After we had been in the showers and dried ourselves we had to fold up our towels and put them back in our canvas hold alls, they never got dry, and were always damp when we used them.
Our canvas hold alls were hung on a long row of coat hooks in the shower room of the Sgts Mess.
After a number of weeks we were told to remove our canvas hold alls from the Sgts Shower rooms for a single day. During this time all the canvas holdalls were removed on a trolley that were [underlined] still [/underlined] hanging on the coat hooks, these hold alls were the property of the Sgts who were missing from operations.
When our Lancaster was taking off with an overload of bombs, I would see the flames comming [sic] from the port inner engine, and spreading over the leading edge of the wing.
It was only a few hours before that I had seen the petrol Bowser pumping petrol into the wings in the same area. And petrol running down the wings.
I felt easier after ten minutes of flight, only a small flame leaving the exhaust.
[page break]
26
During my time with 50 Sqdn at RAF SKELLINGTHORPE aircrew started wearing long silk scarf’s [sic] (pure white) on the scarf’s [sic] were printed in black marking ink the names of the German cities that they had bombed.
We were all proud of our scarves mine had the name of Berlin on it ten times.
This all came to an end when it was found out that aircrew who were shot down and were wearing one of these scarfs angered the german public, that the scarf was hung round the airmans neck and he was hanged from the nearest lamp post or tree.
I dont [sic] think I saw anyone wearing his any longer.
I still have mine in my wardrobe.
The pilot of the Lancaster sat in the front of the Lancaster on the Port (Left) side, behind him sitting at a large table was the Navigator, he needed a large table to spread his maps open so he could read his maps.
Also on the left hand side of the aircraft, behind the Navigator was the Wireless Operator, who had his large Marconi transmitter and receiver in a smaller table, along with his morse key for him to transmit his messages etc.
Also by the side of the Wireless operator was the Monica (aircraft Warning) Receiver which he had to keep his eyes on thro [sic] out the flight.
Down along the Starboard side of the aircraft were a number of box’s [sic] of “Window”. Window was small lengths of stiff paper, with a stiff metal like coating on the paper strips. The Bomb aimer in the nose of the aircraft would thro [sic] out a bundle every five or six mins or so, and each time he would call out Window.
A large blip would show on my Monica screen as it passed us by, and I had no need to shout a warning.
When I saw a blip on the monica screen & the
[page break]
27.
bomb aimer had said nothing, I would shout a warning, shouting “CONTACT” “STARBOARD QUARTER UP” our Lancaster would dive in a different direction and for the next few minutes everyone would search the sky until we were sure we were on our own again,.
The paper bundles of window strips were along the bomb bay floor in a row along the starboard side,
As our flight continued I would keep passing these bundles down to the bomb aimer in the nose of the aircraft, and as he said “WINDOW” I would see the blip apear [sic] on my Monica screen.
Its when I saw a blip apear [sic] on my screen and the bomb [inserted] aimer [/inserted] had not spoken that I shouted contact Port, should it be that, or Starboard if it was on our starboard side.
As a Wireless operator I had to tune my receiver to our five Group radio broadcast every half hour to see if they had any messages for us.
One part of my operational flying that I never felt easy with, was when we became airborne on an operation.
The Lancaster always had a one thousand pound over load and the engines needed every bit of power to get us airborn. [sic]
I would look out of my small side window and see the flames leaving the port engine exhaust, the flames were so long they even left large scorch marks on the wings, each side of the engine.
I knew that in those wings were over two thousand gallons of high octain [sic] petrol, the flames would burn the paint off the wings, each side of the engine. This continued until we reached the height we were detailed to fly at over Germany.
[page break]
28.
In our flying clothing pockets we had a fare [sic] ammount [sic] of French or Dutch money which we could use if we had to bale out of the aircraft over such as Holland or France. We also had a supply of water purification tablets to make sure we had drinking water. This all had to be handed back in to the Squadron after landing, which we were always glad to.
A little farther down the aircraft where the Navigator sat, and the Wireless operator, was the rest bed, quite a large bed where a crew member could be placed if he had been wounded.
It was also handy for placing spare heavy flying clothing, especially if I myself had to move into one of the turrets to take the place of a gunner if he had been wounded. I would need to wear some heavy warm clothing.
All our Wireless operators had completed an Airgunners course during his training and could man one of the turrets if need be.
During our crew training period at 14 OTU Cottesmore and Market Harborough we were detailed to do long cross country flights taking two or three hours.
I made this period a little more enjoyable by selecting some nice music on the radio and feeding it on to our “inter comm” circuit in the Wellington,.
Our crew always looked forward to this.
But when flying on our operations over Germany we needed every bit of information on the inter comm spoken, and action had to take place immediately
29.
Our Pilot Michael Beetham was concerned that we were always in bed at nights at a reasonable time.
He had nothing to fear for Fred our rear gunner and myself, as our two ATS girl friends had to be in their quarters before ten oclock [sic] at nights failing this they were not allowed out at nights for some time.
We only had a fifteen minutes bike ride back to our hut at Skellingthorpe, and were soon in bed.
Our ATS girls often gave us a sandwich or a slice of cake to eat on our way back to Skellingthorpe so we didnt [sic] go back feeling hungry.
During our operations and the long journey, our reward came when our Bomb Aimer decided which bunch of PFF marker flares he was going to aim att. [sic]
He would then say “Bomb Doors Open”, and a cold draft would fill the aircraft, then he said “Steady” Steady – “Steady”, and then “Bombs Gone”. You could hear and feel the “clonk”, “clonk”, as the bombs left their positions hanging in the bomb bay. The cold air left you as he said Bomb Doors closed.
We all felt better now we had no bombs on board, and the aircraft felt much lighter now all we had was the long journey home, hoping that there would be no fog over our airfield and we could have a nice long sleep.
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Title
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Before I was in the RAF by Reg Payne
Wartime Memories
Description
An account of the resource
An account by Reg Payne of his wartime experiences. Too young to sign up at the start of the war he spent two years in the Home Guard. Training started at age 18 and lasted for two years. He served at RAF Skellingthorpe and his brother served at RAF Fiskerton. His brother was shot down and taken prisoner but Reg was not allowed to go home to comfort his mother.
He met his future wife in the Unity bar in Lincoln.
Reg survived a crash on a fighter training session when four of his aircrew died.
He also survived ten operations to Berlin. On one operation they were shot up and lost a lot of fuel and had to make an emergency landing at RAF Wittering where no one could be found because they were at a party, on base.
Arriving back on another operation they found everywhere fogged in but landed at RAF Melbourne where they had to stay for a few days until the fog cleared. They had no clothes to change into, no money and no toothbrushes.
After one operation they landed safely and on powering down the aircraft a bomb, which should have been dropped over Germany, came free and rattled down the bomb bay without exploding.
Once they came back with a large hole in the wing, made by a bomb.
On another op they shot down a JU-88 night fighter.
Bombing operations were directed by a Master Bomber who set flares.
Reg and Fred were given Lincoln Imps as mascots but the night Fred died he had left his mascot on another tunic.
He describes the landing procedures when 40 Lancasters arrive back at the same time, most low on fuel.
His navigator, Fl Lt Frank Swingerd calculated winds aloft and Reg transmitted these to 5 Group aircraft.
He describes the various operating areas of the crew on board the Lancaster.
Creator
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Reg Payne
Format
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28 handwritten pages
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BPayneRPayneRv2
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Rutland
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Leipzig
England--Cornwall (County)
Germany
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Tricia Marshall
David Bloomfield
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
14 OTU
5 Group
50 Squadron
aircrew
Blenheim
bomb struck
bombing
civil defence
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
flight engineer
ground personnel
heirloom
Home Guard
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lincoln
love and romance
lynching
Master Bomber
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
pilot
prisoner of war
radar
RAF Bardney
RAF Cottesmore
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Melbourne
RAF Pocklington
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Eval
RAF Waddington
RAF Wittering
sanitation
superstition
training
Window
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/583/10639/LHolmesGH1579658v1.1.pdf
bf036945795cfbfa29a4383912ff5c45
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Holmes, George
George Henry Holmes
G H Holmes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Holmes, GH
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. An oral history interview with Pilot Officer George Holmes (b. 1922, 1579658, 187788 Royal Air Force) his log book, records of operation, newspaper cuttings and photographs of personnel. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 9, 50 and 83 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by George Holmes and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Date
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2016-10-21
2017-01-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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[Partial transcription of page 60 - 61]
LUCKY ESCAPE – iii
One night on return – on the circuit we collided with another A/C on opposite direction – losing about 4-5 foot of the tip of main plane and nearly spun upside down – but recovered level flying – and landed – OK!!
On the night of July 24th in Lancaster VN-O. 50 Sqdn Skellingthorpe we were on route to Stuttgart when we were attacked by a german night fighter. Which shot away our bomb bay door. Damaged the starboard landing gear Fractured the main spar and put 5-6 cannon shells in the fuel tanks, on a 2nd attack the gunners shot the attacker down. We all agreed to carry on to the target, on arriving back at Base we were told to orbit until all the other A/C were down – On inspection we found that the cannon shells were still there. They were removed and were emptied. They were found to contain SAND instead of explosive – which saved all our lives. A very lucky escape. After a Belly Landing our first big escape.
15/3/2016 – G Holmes (aged 93)
[Page break]
RAF Coningsby 83 Sqdn 1945
Between Feb 1 to 18 March 1945 I flew with an Aussie pilot F/O Cassidy
His A/C was named –
“Hopalong Cassidy’s Flying Circus”!!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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George Holmes' navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Mike Connock
Anne-Marie Watson
Format
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One booklet
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
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LHolmesGH1579658v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Chile
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Czech Republic--Plzeň
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
France--Argentan
France--Beauvoir-sur-Mer
France--Brest
France--La Pallice
France--Le Havre
France--Limoges
France--Normandy
France--Orléans
France--Rennes
France--Saint-Pierre-du-Mont (Landes)
Germany--Bremerhaven
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Germany--Siegen
Germany--Stuttgart
Netherlands--Vlissingen
Norway--Horten
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Scotland--Ross and Cromarty
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1944-06-03
1944-06-04
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
1944-06-07
1944-06-08
1944-06-09
1944-06-10
1944-06-11
1944-06-21
1944-06-22
1944-06-23
1944-06-24
1944-06-29
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-30
1944-08-01
1944-08-02
1944-08-05
1944-08-14
1944-08-19
1944-09-10
1944-09-18
1944-09-19
1944-09-20
1944-10-23
1945-01-13
1945-01-14
1945-02-01
1945-02-02
1945-02-03
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-24
1945-03-21
1945-04-08
1945-04-09
1945-04-17
1945-09-10
1945-09-29
1945-10-02
Description
An account of the resource
Navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book for G H Holmes, covering the period from 7 June 1943 to 23 May 1947. Detailing his flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at RAF Yatesbury, RAF Evanton, RAF Turweston, RAF Silverstone, RAF Swinderby, RAF Syerston, RAF Bardney, RAF Skellingthorpe, RAF Coningsby and RAF Hemswell. Aircraft flown in were, Dominie, Procter, Botha, Wellington, Stirling, Lancaster, Lincoln and Oxford. He flew a total of 31 Operations, 7 night with 9 squadron, 9 daylight and 4 night with 50 squadron and 11 night with 83 squadron. Targets were, Ferme D’urville, St Peirre du Mond, Argentan, Rennes, Orlean, Gelsenkirchen, Limoges, Beauvoir, Kiel, Stuttgart, Cahagnes, Mont Cadon, Bois de Cassau, St Leu D’esserent, Brest, La Pallice, Le Havre, Bremerhaven, Mönchengladbach, Flushing, Politz, Siegen, Karlsruhe, Ladbergen, Dresden, Rositz, Horton Fjord, Hamburg, Lutzkendorf, Pilsen. <span>His pilots on operations were </span>Squadron Leader Stubbs, Flying Officer Inniss, Flying Officer Cassidy, Flight Lieutenant Siddle, Wing Commander Osbourne and Flight Lieutenant Weber. He survived a fighter attack and a mid air collision. He also flew on a Cook's Tour, Operation Dodge to Bari and a goodwill tour to Chile. The log book has been annotated and also contains various pictures of the aircraft flown in, the squadron badges and a photo of himself in uniform.
1660 HCU
17 OTU
50 Squadron
83 Squadron
9 Squadron
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
Botha
Cook’s tour
Dominie
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Lincoln
mid-air collision
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
Proctor
RAF Bardney
RAF Coningsby
RAF Evanton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Silverstone
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Turweston
RAF Yatesbury
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/947/10643/LMathersRW55201v2.2.pdf
55bec3251d71f385ab46787c57ae829d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mathers, Ronald
R W Mathers
Description
An account of the resource
20 items. The collection concerns Wing Commander Ronald Mathers DFC (55201 Royal Air Force) and consists of his log books, photographs, correspondence, his decorations, and copies of two letters from Dwight Eisenhower to Sir Arthur Harris. Ronald Mathers completed a tour of operations as a pilot with 9 Squadron from RAF Bardney. After the war he took part in victory flypasts and a Goodwill tour of the United States with 35 Squadron. The collection also contains a scrapbook of the Goodwill Tour to the United States.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Heidi Peace and Ingrid Peters, and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Mathers, RW
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ronald Mathers pilots flying log book. Two
Description
An account of the resource
Pilots flying log book for Ronald Mathers covering the period from 1 October 1944 to 24 February 1948. Detailing his flying training, instructor duties and duties with 35 squadron. He was stationed at RAF Swinderby, RAF Finningley, RAF Hullavington, RAF Gravely, RAF Stradishall and RAF Scampton. Aircraft flown were, Stirling, Lancaster, Oxford, Wellington, Hotspur, Auster, Harvard, Reliant, Hudson, Halifax, Dakota, Warwick, Lincoln, Meteor, Spitfire, Buckmaster, Mosquito and Anson. He also flew operation Goodwill to America, visiting Lagens, Gander, Mitchel Field, Scott Field, Lowry Field, Long Beach Field, Kelly Field, Andrew Field and Westover Field.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LMathersRW55201v2
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
United States
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
California--Long Beach
Colorado--Denver
Illinois--Belleville
Massachusetts--Chicopee
Maryland--Camp Springs
Newfoundland and Labrador--Gander
New York (State)--Long Island
Texas--San Antonio
Azores--Lajes
California
Colorado
Illinois
Maryland
Massachusetts
New York (State)
Texas
Newfoundland and Labrador
Canada
Azores
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
1660 HCU
35 Squadron
Anson
C-47
forced landing
Goodwill tour of the United States (1946)
Halifax
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hudson
Lancaster
Lincoln
Meteor
Mosquito
Oxford
RAF Finningley
RAF Graveley
RAF Hullavington
RAF Scampton
RAF Stradishall
RAF Swinderby
Spitfire
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/818/10801/PFearnsH1701.2.jpg
8507b318fd85683be6792d3505bbeccd
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/818/10801/AFearnsH170724.1.mp3
ce8cfbef19c41548e6c2de7fa30a072a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fearns, Harry
H Fearns
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Harry Fearns (b. 1925, 1591683 Royal Air Force), seven photographs, his service badges and identity card. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 100 and 97 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Harry Fearns and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Fearns, H
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Sergeant Harry Fearns at 2.15 on Monday 24th of July 2017 at his home near Bury, Greater Manchester. Also with us is his daughter, Gillian Bailey. Harry, if I can start off with some straightforward questions for you, please. Can you tell me your date of birth, where you, and where you were born?
HF: Date of birth was 24 1 25.
BW: 24th of January 1925.
HF: Correct.
BW: And how many were there in your family? Did you have any brothers and sisters?
HF: Yes. There were six of us.
BW: How many brothers and sisters did you have in —?
HF: Well, I’ll start at, I was the eldest. There was Harry, Gordon, Joyce, Margaret. Was that my six? That sounds about right.
BW: That’s four.
HF: Four.
BW: There were two more.
HF: Oh.
GB: John. Brother, John.
HF: Oh yes, John.
GB: And Kathleen.
HF: And Kathleen.
BW: And what was, what was family life like? Where were you growing up at this time? Were you in Bury or were you, were you born elsewhere in the country?
HF: No. I was born in South Yorkshire.
BW: Ok. Whereabouts in South Yorkshire.
HF: In a little house [unclear] Barnsley.
BW: Barnsley. Ok.
HF: West Middleton, near Rotherham. But we always talked about Barnsley being the leading place not, not Rotherham.
BW: So, you were close to Barnsley.
HF: Yes.
BW: And where did you go to school?
HF: Wath on Dearne Grammar School.
BW: How do you —
HF: Wath upon, U P O N
BW: Wath upon —
HF: Wath. Separate word, upon. Upon.
BW: Wath upen?
HF: Dearne.
GB: Wath upon Dearne. So, it’s W A T H —
HF: D E A R.
GB: Upon-D E A R N E.
BW: Right. I haven’t heard of that. That’s [pause] Wath upon Dearne.
HF: Nice little place.
BW: Was it a bit of a village?
HF: It was a mining village really.
BW: And what did your dad do? Was he a miner?
HF: A miner.
BW: What about your mum?
HF: Too busy with the family to have any work.
BW: So, your dad was the worker and your mum looked after the rest of you.
HF: That’s it.
BW: And what was, what was your school like?
HF: Well, for the year, typical Wath, typical Grammar School.
BW: So, you went to a Grammar School then.
HF: Yes.
BW: And what age did you leave? You would be fourteen? Or was it after that?
HF: Sixteen. I left and I went to work for the Prudential Insurance Company. At the same time I applied to be in the RAF and of course that was about [pause] 1944. So, obviously that was during the war years.
BW: And what prompted you to join the RAF?
HF: I really wanted. I don’t know how I’d describe it.
GB: But you told me you’d always wanted to fly.
HF: Well, yes. That could be summed up.
BW: And did you want to be a pilot or a navigator or did you want to be say a gunner or or other crew member?
HF: Well, like those in reduced order.
BW: Ok.
HF: Pilot first. Navigator second. Engineer. Then a navigator err air gunner.
BW: And when you went for the interviews did you tell them that you wanted to be a pilot? What happened?
HF: Oh yeah.
BW: What happened so that you, you ended up as flight engineer?
HF: I think what one can say is that they’d got enough at that time. They hadn’t lost enough, putting it crudely. So, it depended what was available when we were called for to be signed on.
BW: So, you were working for Prudential Insurance at this time. Were you? What sort of position were you in the, in the company?
HF: Just a rent collector. Well, not so much rent. A collector of premiums.
BW: And the war had been going on a few years at this point can you recall at that time did it feel like it was coming to an end or that it was going to continue longer than it did?
HF: We thought it was coming to an end. Thought we were helping. All the flying and the fighting. Not that I did any fighting but [laughs]
BW: Did you join up with any friends?
HF: Not exactly friends but certainly some of my old, my pals went around about the same time.
BW: And you’d had an ambition to fly. What [pause] I’m trying to understand whether you and your friends perhaps wanted to get some action before you joined up or whether it was more that you’d heard a lot of the RAF and what it was doing.
HF: I think it’s the latter. You know, we just wanted to fly. We didn’t particularly want to shoot any guns or —
BW: And where, where did you start your training? Do you remember?
HF: St Johns Wood, London.
BW: And what was it like? Was it what you expected it to be?
HF: I thought it was great. We used to march from [pause] I’ve just forgotten the the place where we were sleeping. Something Court. And we used to have PT and exercises early in the morning. Then we did some studies. You might do an hour navigation, an hour generally but have to early on [pause] what was I about to say? [pause] Yeah. We moved on some of our exercises. We went in to Lord’s Cricket Ground. Marching up and down at Lords and doing sort of [pause] after about two months of that they farmed us out and in my particular case was to an aircrew training establishment at Newquay, Cornwall. Have you come across it?
BW: That’s quite a way away.
HF: It was.
BW: From London. It’s a good —
HF: Yeah.
BW: Hundred miles.
HF: But they needed, afterwards you realised they were, that near the end of the war they wanted to get rid of at least accommodation belonging to private people, I suppose. And as soon as they could get rid of the larger establishments then they got rid of places like Newquay. For example, the one after that we went to was Stormy Down in Glamorgan. Porthcawl. That’s the place it was near.
BW: Porthcawl.
HF: Yeah.
BW: It’s a lot easier to get from Newquay to Porthcawl then it is from Newquay to London.
HF: Yeah. Yeah. I read that.
BW: And so you were going through your basic training at this stage.
HF: Yes. This time.
BW: Whereabouts did you do your engineering training? Was that at Stormy Down?
HF: No. St Athan School of Technical Training. Massive place.
BW: Do you recall how long you were there?
HF: No. I would have thought it was about an hour err an hour, a year because they kept stopping as they found out, presumably found out that there were staff they didn’t need they moved them on. On to the next stage and the facilities would be left for some chaps behind. They would spend most of their time playing football.
BW: And so you were training at St Athan. It says, is it Number 4 School of Technical Training? Or trade training.
HF: Something like that. Is it on there.
BW: Yeah. It’s there.
HF: Oh, it’s there [laughs]
BW: And according to your logbook you got sixty five point two percent.
HF: Yeah.
BW: And you trained on Lancaster 1s and Mark 3s.
HF: Yes.
BW: Were they 1s or was that a type of aircraft that you selected to train on or were you —
HF: Oh no.
BW: Directed on to —
HF: You will go.
BW: And how did you feel about that? Being put on Lancasters.
HF: Perhaps relieved that we were not a gunner. An air gunner. It was interesting at the time.
BW: And it looks from your time of joining up to the time of finishing the course at St Athan that the war had actually ended during that time.
HF: That’s about right. Yes.
BW: What can you recall of that? That time? Were there, did you still feel like there was a role for you now that the war had ended or did you feel a bit surplus perhaps?
HF: No. I think we, it’s better to be moved to the southeast and fighting the Japs there. And the aircraft you saw were different to the two colour system. They were, and they had an idea was to give them some protection from other aircraft. Other aircraft attacking you. So, in fact the aircraft that you showed was the Lancaster 1 FE, Far East.
BW: And so it, was it a particular type or version of the Mark 1 that was dedicated for Far East service? Is that why it was called a Lancaster 1FE?
HF: Not really it was just, it was planes they took into the hangars and made adaptations. I couldn’t remember exactly which they gave us. Except obviously, the F, the FE bit.
BW: So, you left St Athan and I think you went to an OCU. An Operational Conversion Unit. And that was 230 OCU at Lindholme.
HF: Ah, yes. Yeah.
BW: And it, it shows from your logbook you starting there in 1947. What do you recall of Lindholme at that time?
HF: Typical Bomber Command plane. [pause] And we kept on doing the same job and by then for a time passed to Lindholme which was virtually mixed in next door to Finningley. And Lindholme, my main recollection of Lindholme was in nineteen, February I think it is, ’47 and the big freeze. We spent loads of time with shovels getting the ice and snow off the runways.
BW: So [laughs] so you joined up to fly and there you were on the runway.
HF: That’s it.
BW: With your spade.
HF: Yeah.
BW: Shovelling snow. At these OCUs it was common for the different trades to get together and form a crew. Can you recall how that happened for you? How you met your other crew mates?
HF: I can remember it. I remember it plain as anything. That we all went in a hangar and they called out, you know, ‘Joe. Joe Smith.’ These, they’d be the skippers, pilots would be called in and they’d say, ‘Right. Pick your navigator. Pick your engineer.’ And eventually build the crew.
BW: So, it sounds fairly similar to what they were doing actually in the war years. Putting them in a hangar and telling them to sort themselves out.
HF: Yeah.
BW: So, you wouldn’t necessarily, did you meet your pilot first or did you meet other crew mates first and then decide which pilot you wanted? Or did the pilot kind of choose you? Or —
HF: I can’t remember whether I was selected or what was left sort of thing.
BW: And what can you recall of your crew mates?
HF: I can’t explain really. Didn’t see a lot of one another except when we were flying.
BW: Were you not billeted together as a crew?
HF: Subject to rank, yes.
BW: So were you all NCOs or was one of —
HF: Well, no. One —
BW: One or two officers.
HF: What did you call him? Leicester? Register. Mike Register. I remember him. He definitely, he got in to the officer’s mess. And we, in other words the sergeants and flight sergeants we’d go in the NCOs mess.
BW: Do you remember how many of you were? Were NCOs? Was there only one officer? Was, was he the pilot? Presumably he was the pilot.
HF: He was. Mike Register.
BW: Yeah.
HF: And the navigator. Scott somebody. I can’t remember his name. He might be in here somewhere.
BW: And did you keep, when you were billeted were you billeted as NCOs or were you in some cases they were by trade. So the gunners would be kept together and so on but that doesn’t seem to have happened with you.
HF: No. It didn’t.
BW: So, you were all mixed trades but still in the NCOs—
HF: Yes.
BW: In the NCOs mess. From your logbook when you were on the OCU do you remember any sorties at that particular time? Any incidents during your, sort of training together?
[pause]
HF: No. I can’t.
BW: Ok. You moved from there I think, to 100 Squadron.
HF: Was that at Hemswell, as well?
BW: And they were as I think you say at Hemswell. But you converted when you joined the squadron. You converted to Lincolns.
HF: Yeah. Well —
BW: Instead of the Lancasters.
HF: Yes.
BW: Can you recall what —
HF: The passage of time. The Lincoln was a bit bigger.
BW: How would you compare it to a Lancaster? Did you have a favourite between the two?
HF: Oh yes. The old Lanc couldn’t be beaten in that respect.
BW: And how did the Lincoln differ from an engineer’s point of view?
HF: It seemed altogether quite efficient. Difficult to explain what it might be for the rest, all the crew and the different engines and things like that. But we had fewer, fewer mistakes. We didn’t have any crashes which was a surprise really.
BW: But having flown Lincolns you preferred the Lancasters still.
HF: Definitely.
BW: Did you notice any particular difference between the Mark 1 and the Mark 3 at all?
HF: 3.
BW: Was there anything notable?
[pause]
HF: No. All I think it was was a larger engine.
BW: And when it came to you actually preparing to carry out a sortie what would you as a flight engineer be doing? Can you recall what kind of things? What kind of steps you would be taking to prepare yourself and then carry out the sortie?
[pause]
HF: You’d check that the, the aircraft site you’d got, that they’d allocated to you, you’d be like, you’d like it so that that to be one as it were you had flown before but nevertheless you used to go out to the [pause] I’ve forgotten the name of the place where the planes were dumped.
BW: Dispersal.
HF: Dispersal. Thank you [laughs] You’d go out to your dispersal and as it were meet your aircraft. See this chief of the engineers. Yeah. And sort yourself with any, any problems there might be. And equally, the engineer would keep an eye on me as a flight engineer often looking down on them because they thought that the flyers were having an easy time.
BW: So even though you were perhaps taking more of a risk as air crew because you would be awarded flying pay in your, in your salary the engineers on the ground still looked down at you because you were not seen perhaps as proper engineers.
HF: Certainly, the chief engineers felt that.
BW: Had any of them flown do you know? Had any of the chief engineers been aircrew at all and then taken a ground job?
HF: No.
BW: So, they didn’t really know what risks you were taking then.
HF: Well, the stories one hears.
BW: You mentioned just before that when you were allocated an aircraft you always hoped to get one that you had flown before and it seems from from that and from your logbook you didn’t have a regular aircraft that you were allocated. Was there a favourite one or a particular one that you felt more comfortable with or was better for you and why would that be?
HF: Well, in a way they would all be the same because for example, you were coming up in the size of the Lincoln 1FE then what are the chances all of you would be on the higher plane? So, they were not all the same.
BW: At 100 Squadron there had been four or five Lancasters on the squadrons books that had flown over a hundred missions in the war. Were they still there at the time do you recall or had they been retired by that point?
HF: I don’t know. I can’t remember that.
BW: Were there any aircraft still there that had maybe war markings on them? Say the number of bomb sorties that they’d, you know sort of, bomb symbols to indicate the number of missions.
HF: They had. They had. I remember one or two like that but I can’t remember which they are.
BW: Did you try and avoid those at all?
HF: No [laughs] Well, the fighting was over then so we relaxed in some ways.
BW: So, you’ve been driven out to dispersal and you’ve had a look around the aircraft and a hand over’s taken place. Can you remember what you would then be doing as flight engineer once you get in the aircraft and you’re walking up or clambering over the main spar to get up to the flight engineer’s position? What kind of things would be on your list to do?
HF: Well, you get to know the aircraft which you know you probably hadn’t seen all that much in spite of the training.
GB: But did you have little checks that you had to do like checking dials or levers?
HF: Oh yes. That, by it’s —
GB: What would you have to do?
HF: Well, first of all you’d walk around the aircraft from the outside and check all the places that you can get at. When you’d done that you go inside the aircraft and check the things that were the responsibility of the engineer. For example, you wouldn’t interfere with the navigator and he wouldn’t interfere with your job. Should be. And once they were satisfied that the aircraft was serviceable then off you’d go on some exercise.
GB: Did you have to write anything down though? As a flight engineer did you have to check certain things and say yes that’s safe. Yes, that’s, did you have anything like that?
HF: Yeah. We did to some extent.
GB: And so what —
HF: I can’t remember them though [pause]
GB: Yeah.
BW: The flight engineer’s position in a Lancaster you’re almost off the, just off the right shoulder of the, of the pilot.
HF: Yeah.
BW: Was that any different in the Lincoln?
HF: No. No.
BW: So, you were in the same position whichever aircraft you flew and —
HF: Yes, I’d been certainly.
BW: And can you recall what you would be doing? Would you have to help the pilot during take-off or anything like that?
HF: Yes.
BW: What would you do?
HF: You’d be, bear in mind this is an aircraft, quite a largish one to us then and we’d got to get it flying. So you’re checking with the pilot on all his checks as well. Calling back to one another until you got ready for flying. In the meantime, we taxied out to the edge of the airport and off you go. Then the navigator would to some extent take over to put down where you were going to go to and see some of these on here.
BW: And there’s a mix in your logbook of day sorties and night sorties as well. And even on your first one I think air to sea firing on the first —
HF: Yes.
BW: Sortie there. So presumably you were out over the North Sea.
HF: Yes. Yes.
BW: And what were your night time sorties like?
HF: Boring [pause] We just had to do our exercise which probably lasted five hours or something like that. These long exercises were in many ways more interesting than the short ones.
BW: And you’d still be carrying out fighter affiliation or bombing exercises even though the war had finished.
HF: Yes.
BW: Did they brief you as to what your sort of longer term role was? Bearing in mind that Germany had been defeated and by this stage, 1947 the war with Japan had long been over as well. Did they, although you are still carrying out, let’s say typical training sorties that were appropriate to wartime did they give, did you get a sense of what your purpose was in the immediate post-war years? What your role was?
HF: I’ve no recollection of that. We were doing odd jobs back at Hemswell and Scampton hoping one day we’d go somewhere interesting. But what happened is that a high percentage of the blokes who had done their time, their Service and went back to Civvy Street and we probably wouldn’t see them again.
BW: Were you able to meet or interact with any of the veterans? And I say veterans, from those who had been on missions over Germany while you were on the squadron. You were fairly new. Were you able to meet any of those who’d been on the squadron and were being demobbed after wartime service?
HF: I thought we would have but I can’t remember any.
BW: When you look back at some of the missions or the sorties that you were tasked what can you recall of them? Are there any memorable ones that, that you can recall from there?
HF: I don’t think there were any real interesting memorable ones at all. You probably saw some of the air sea, air to sea firing [laughs] and dropping bombs in the Wash and things like that.
BW: Can you recall what the targets were in the Wash? Were they perhaps disused ships or were they —
HF: I think they were disused ships. Certainly made to look like ships. There’s an interesting one. Four hours familiarisation flying and three engine flying. Three engines, had obviously had some trouble in one of them and had come out of order so we were flying back on three which was no problem on a big plane.
BW: Did that happen often for you? Did you practice it?
HF: Yes. Oh, yes.
BW: And as an engineer can you recall any particular steps you had to take or difficulties involved in flying with only one engine on, available on one wing and two on the other because you’ve got double to power on.
HF: Yeah.
BW: What kind of problems would that cause you?
HF: Well, the main thing was trying to keep the power up on the other three to balance on the one that was out of order. And seeing as there was no bombs, no problems. We were, almost enjoyed it.
BW: And of course you weren’t, you had the advantage of not being shot at.
HF: True [laughs]
BW: There’s one note in here about Naval exercise. Presumably you’d coordinate with the Navy at some point.
HF: Yeah. I imagine so. I can’t remember it.
BW: And another one there where you’ve got noted power plant in the bomb bay.
HF: Ah, now there was a base near, in Egypt and they were reliable on us in Britain for their maintenance more and wanted a Lancaster to fly out in its bomb bays and then come back of course with the defective engine. And that was for some reason they sent me as engineer there. But planting the bomb bay, you know obviously then brought the bomb bay back, brought the bomb back with us. Have to confirm that.
BW: And there’s a few cross-country flights.
HF: Yes. [laughs]
BW: Pamphlet dropping. And air sea rescue.
HF: Over Lancashire and places like that.
GB: What was the pamphlet dropping, dad? What were you doing?
HF: This was just after the war to keep people cheered up.
BW: All your exercises, or all your sorties are going around the UK. There aren’t any recorded for going overseas except one which we see here going to —
HF: [unclear] just in to.
BW: Saint Quentin.
HF: Germany. Yeah.
BW: Saarbrücken.
HF: Saarbrücken. Yeah. [ Benebruck. Benebruck?]
BW: Osnabruck.
HF: Osnabruck, is it? Yes. So, it is.
BW: That looks like your first time over, over Germany.
HF: Yeah. It probably is.
BW: Can you recall anything about that particular one?
HF: I can’t. No.
[pause]
BW: This one sounds an interesting one. In fact, there’s two. This is late November 1947 and one daylight sortie is formation and fighter affiliation and the other is low level cross country. So which was that? Formation and fighter affil.
HF: Fighter affiliation. Yeah.
BW: Oh that. Yeah.
HF: And then a day or two after low level cross country.
BW: What did it feel like? Flying at low level.
HF: Great. Super it was.
BW: Were there any height restrictions at that particular time?
HF: Yes, I’m sure there were. I can’t remember. I can’t remember anything special about it.
BW: I think they might have been a lot more relaxed then they were. Than they are now.
HF: Yes. A combination of both. Of being relaxed and being bored.
BW: Was a Lincoln alright to handle at low level?
HF: Yes. Oh yes [pause] How’s that for a long flight? Scampton. Ten. Ten minutes [laughs]
[pause]
BW: So, by this stage late 1947 your time on 100 Squadron appears to be coming to an end and I believe you joined 97 Squadron after that. Can you remember?
HF: Yes, I was there for a month or two. I don’t remember a lot about it. Of course, if we were in the right places it was quite famous.
BW: It had been a Pathfinder Squadron.
HF: That’s right. Yeah.
BW: At one time.
HF: Yeah.
BW: But there’s no record of any flights that you took with that, with that squadron.
HF: Not at all.
BW: No.
HF: Perhaps at that yeah. That time they wouldn’t have heard of us [unclear]
BW: Can you recall what your CO was like at 100 Squadron? Did you see much of him?
HF: No. I didn’t. Just made sure he had his salute if he passed you.
BW: What was the social life like in the RAF at this time?
HF: In our case we used to drive in to Lincoln for our social life. Any other direction if you look at your map you’ll find there’s nothing that way, nothing that way.
BW: Lincoln is the nearest big city, isn’t it? [pause] Did it feel any different for you having lived through the war years and the rationing and the blackouts and things was there a palpable difference when you were in the RAF and going into Lincoln let’s say for social events?
HF: No. I can’t say that there was.
BW: There’s a photograph here of you in uniform and it looks like you’re on, you’re on the seafront.
HF: It probably is Skegness or somewhere like that. Or Cleethorpes.
BW: Did you get much time off at all from from duties?
HF: Oh, yes.
BW: And did you socialise as a crew or did you have any particular other friends that you, you met up with in there for instance?
HF: Well, I would socialise. Yes. Not necessarily in the same crew, in fact. You know.
BW: And did you get to know any of the other crews?
HF: Yes. Must have done. Flying with them. But I can’t remember much about it.
BW: There’s another picture here.
HF: That’s a Lincoln, isn’t it?
BW: That’s a Lancaster.
HF: Is it?
BW: And it looks, there must be at least three of you in formation because you’re in one aircraft and there’s two others in the, in the picture. That must be when you’re at 100 Squadron.
GB: Can you remember taking that picture or did somebody else take it and give it to you, dad?
HF: I think the latter but I can’t remember. So —
BW: There’s another picture here which shows the other members of the crew and I’m guessing that that is the navigator who’s the officer. There.
HF: Oh, most certainly, yes. Yes.
BW: Second left.
HF: Yeah.
BW: And that’s by the rear turret of what must be a Lincoln.
HF: [unclear]
BW: Can you recall any of the people in the, in the photograph at all?
HF: Yeah. Sparky there. Willy, the wireless operator there. You mentioned the navigator.
BW: Think that’s him. Yeah. Isn’t it?
HF: In the middle.
BW: Second left.
HF: Flat cap.
BW: Yeah.
HF: Then me. Then the rear gunner. I must have missed somebody out because there’s another navigator there.
[pause]
BW: But none of their names come back to you.
HF: Every now and again. And there’s our navigator down in the, or our bomb aimer down on the floor.
BW: What happened to when you left 97 Squadron? Were you then demobbed? Was this the beginning of National Service? Were you then demobbed after that or did you continue in the RAF for a little while longer?
HF: No. I [pause] yes, I got demobbed or I took demob and that was either from [pause] what’s the place near Doncaster?
BW: Finningley. Finningley?
HF: No, the —
BW: Hemswell.
HF: Hemswell. Yeah. I can see it now. Going over Hemswell and then we signed up all our papers and what have you at Scampton. No. That was at Hemswell. And from Hemswell I was taken to Blackpool and released.
BW: Presumably that was Squires Gate. That’s where they had the big —
HF: Yes. That’s right.
BW: Big Reception Centre. And what happened from there? Did you have a job to go back to or did you just go home to South Yorkshire?
HF: Well, in the latter there was no job as such. I was accepted by the people I worked with at the time, the Prudential and started working there.
BW: And how long did you work —
HF: In Civvy Street.
BW: How long did you work for the Prudential for?
HF: Not long. One year. Two year.
BW: And what, what did you go on to do after that?
HF: Rent collecting.
BW: But not with the Prudential. With another company.
HF: No. Well, Prudential didn’t have many accommodation now for —
GB: So, it was the local council, was it that you —?
HF: It was the local council. Yeah.
GB: Council housing.
BW: And when, when did you get married?
[pause]
HF: About [pause] was it in nineteen —
GB: I remember it was in July. I don’t know which year though. I can’t remember. I wouldn’t. I don’t know.
HF: Well, well, well. I would have laid my money on her remembering that.
BW: Did you stay in South Yorkshire?
HF: Yes. For a couple of years. Then went to Harlow in Essex.
BW: What prompted you to move down there?
HF: Plenty of opportunity. They were building what, eight big towns. In the south mainly. So, I thought it would be best of new opportunities down there. And so I worked there. At some stage I moved up to Harlow in Essex and up to the east. To Doncaster, wasn’t it?
GB: No. After Harlow dad you moved up to Nuneaton because I was born in Harlow, wasn’t I? And we left Harlow in 1972 when you got that job as a housing manager.
HF: Yes.
GB: At Nuneaton Council.
HF: Oh, [unclear]
GB: The date sticks in my mind because that’s when I did my O levels and I remember —
HF: Yes.
GB: Us just moving up just after that.
HF: Oh aye.
BW: And then from there you obviously moved up to Manchester, or Greater Manchester.
HF: Well, that's by accident if anything.
GB: Yeah. It’s only a couple of years ago when dad —
HF: Yeah.
GB: Couldn’t live on his own anymore in Nuneaton.
BW: Yeah. Did you manage to keep in touch with any of your crew mates after, after leaving the RAF or did you just all go your separate ways?
HF: We all went our separate ways. I don’t remember any of them because we all got demobbed as it were in any number. You know, in our number but in my experience.
BW: You were demobbed individually.
HF: Yes.
GB: You know John Whitlock, in Harlow. He was in the RAF. Did you know him when you were in the RAF?
HF: No.
GB: So, you just met him in Harlow and he just happened to be in the RAF.
HF: Yes.
GB: Right.
BW: And the, how did you hear about the Memorial for Bomber Command?
HF: I was in RAFA, so you got all the bumph and publicity for some of the activities. And I remember going to Coningsby. To the, that’s not Bomber Command, is it? That’s —
BW: It was. It was a bomber base.
HF: Yeah. But since then.
GB: Are you thinking of the reunions of Project Propeller that you’ve been to occasionally?
HF: No. But that does come in to it though, love. Yeah. Did you know of that?
GB: Project Propeller is when local pilots take you to your reunions isn’t it?
HF: Yes. That’s sums it up.
BW: Have you managed to get to the Memorial site at Lincoln? At Canwick Hill.
HF: No.
BW: Or not.
HF: Is that where the new site is?
BW: That’s yeah. That’s where the new site is.
HF: Is that in Scampton?
BW: It’s not far from Scampton. It’s probably five or six miles. Something like that.
HF: Yeah. Towards Lincoln.
BW: Yes.
HF: Yeah.
BW: Yeah. Scampton’s just north of Lincoln isn’t it. So, as you, as you come south you actually go —
HF: What did you actually call it?
BW: Scampton. So, as you go towards the city and then go up the valley at the other side and that is Canwick Hill and that’s where the Memoria is.
HF: Oh right.
[pause]
BW: Well, I think I’ve gone through all the questions that I, that I had for you.
HF: Ok.
BW: So it just leaves me to say thank you very much for your time, Harry and thank you for doing the interview.
HF: Pleasure.
BW: Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Fearns
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFearnsH170724, PFearnsH1701
Format
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00:59:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Fearns was born and lived in Barnsley South Yorkshire. He left school at 16 and joined the Prudential Insurance Company as a door to door premiums collector before joining the Royal Air Force in 1944 as a flight engineer. Following initial training at St John’s Wood London and Newquay, Harry completed his training at RAF Stormy Down and RAF St Athan. During training he worked on Lancaster Mk1 and Mk3 aircraft being modified to operate in the Far East, although the war ended before Harry joined an operational squadron. Harry was posted to No 230 Operational Conversion Unit at RAF Lindholme in 1947 where his main recollection was clearing the runways of snow and ice during the very severe winter of 1946/7. From there he was posted to 100 Squadron at RAF Hemswell where he converted to Lincolns although he recalled a preference for the Lancaster. During 1947 the squadron carried out a number of night and daytime exercises, live firing and bombing range practices. After a short period with 97 Squadron, Harry was demobbed late in 1947 and returned to The Prudential Insurance Company before commencing a career in local housing.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jim Sheach
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales--Bridgend
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
England--Yorkshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Cornwall (County)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1946
1947
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
flight engineer
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Lincoln
RAF Hemswell
RAF Lindholme
RAF St Athan
RAF Stormy Down
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/860/11102/AHarrisNG160128.2.mp3
617dde8eedd97b1d29cf4bc164b586a4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harris, Neil
Neil Gibson Harris
N G Harris
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Neil Harris (b. 1920, 56027 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 578 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Harris, NG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: Alright. This is Brian Wright, I am interviewing Flight Lieutenant Brian Wright DFC of Bomber Command on Thursday, the 28th of January 2016 at his home in Lidham and the time is twenty past three in the afternoon. Just to start us with a formal question, if you wouldn’t mind so, could you just confirm your full name, rank on leaving and your service number please?
NH: Neil Gibson Harris, 56027, Flight Lieutenant.
BW: Ok. And I believe you are born in November 1920 in Bournemouth.
NH: 27/11/1920, yes.
BW: What was your family like, you lived with your parents, of course, did you have any brothers or sisters?
NH: Yes, I had two brothers and one sister we, fairly wide range, my eldest brother was nine years older than me and my sister was six years younger than me. So, was a spread of fifteen years between us, we are a working-class family, thank you, but very close.
BW: And what was the area like where you were growing up, was it [unclear]?
NH: Very pleasant indeed, oh, suburban, but very pleasant. Although basically a lower middle-class type area.
BW: And you were at school in Bournemouth during that time?
NH: Yes.
BW: I understand that you left school at fourteen.
NH: Fourteen, school called East Howe.
BW: East Howe.
NH: Yes.
BW: And did you have any qualifications?
NH: No, there weren’t, there were no qualifications available in those days. Not at fourteen, no, just, you just left school at fourteen and started working. And I went to work in the East Dorset brickworks as an office boy but by the end of nine months, I was rang into [unclear] office and my salary went, my wages went from seven and six to fifteen schillings, the works manager didn’t, gave me all his work to do [laughs]
BW: Just [unclear] you with it.
NH: So, I went from there to Bowmakers, which is a banking facilities company in Bournemouth, where I upgraded my position quite a bit, I was a proper clerk, a junior clerk.
BW: And from there I understand you went into the civil service.
NH: No, not the civil service, no, I went straight into the Air Force from there.
BW: Oh, I see, so you were [unclear]
NH: As an apprentice, as an apprentice. No, I’ve never been in the civil service, No, I went, that was, I was fifteen when I went to Bowmakers and I was nearly seventeen when I joined the RAF as an apprentice at Halton.
BW: Ok, and this would be 1937, so that would be
NH: That would be 1930, no, earlier, yes, ’37, that’s right, yes, ’37, September ’37.
BW: And what attracted you to join the RAF, what was your interest in that?
NH: Well, there were half a dozen or so, junior clerks, they all had had benefit of grammar school type of education, which is different to the one that I had and I, three or four of them were interested in the RAF, two of them, like myself, became apprentices, and one of them became an acting private officer
BW: I see.
NH: And a man named Haynes, he was a Battle of Britain pilot eventually, he was killed eventually too, got a DFC, shot down five, after that I don’t know anything about him but he didn’t survive the war, that’s all I know.
BW: A shame. And so, what prompted you to join the RAF, did you sense that the war was coming or did you [unclear]?
NH: Well, I think It’s the effect of three or four of us talking about the RAF and doing quite a nice job, had a pleasant working situation at Bowmakers but we wanted more excitement, I think. And of course I wanted more education, I, leaving school at fourteen I still felt I’d liked to have gone to a public school, there’s no chance of me doing that but RAF Halton provided a fairly good substitute, we had school and workshops and plenty of sport, which is what I wanted.
BW: And was there a good social life as well?
NH: Oh, no, social life, no, you weren’t allowed out [laughs], no, there’s three years hard regime but you had plenty of sports, but never saw a girl [laughs], no, we were all frustrated [unclear] [laughs]
BW: And so you
NH: It was a good training, excellent, marvellous training of course.
BW: And so, your trade in the engineering branch was what?
NH: I was a fitter 2A, a fitter to airframe.
BW: Ok.
NH: I managed to get in because the expansion scheme had started and the entries became much larger so I [unclear] an examination of three set papers, quite large, got a couple of them here somewhere, and I’m quite impressed by the standards that they required. So I did a lot of private study, my second brother was a very clever man, young man, he helped me a lot, he was an, he was a really highly, he became a highly qualified engineer and he helped me a lot, I managed to scrape in and but by that time, entries were getting to something like nine hundred or a thousand, so two entries a year, and of course the expansion scheme has started because of the threat of Hitler and there were, so, we were, before that time it was, you were called fitter twos and you did both engines and airframes, they split us up, the aircrafts were becoming more complicated and so you either became airframe, a fitter airframe or a fitter engine and then you did your three year, it’s a three year training, you did your three year training either as a fitter to airframe or a fitter to engine, and then the scheme was that after you’d been out on a normal squadron, and had practical experienced, you went back and did another year and that would be a conversion, if you did airframes before then you did a year on engines or vice versa so then you became a fitter one, so that’s basically how the training worked.
BW: And so, you get a good grounding not just in the structure of the aircraft but also the powerplants as well.
NH: You would, by that time but of course the war intervened from my entry and we stayed as fitter 2A’s of course but I got off and I took the easier route and managed to get onto aircrew. And but they wouldn’t let me, as soon as I finished my training, I volunteered for aircrew, but they wouldn’t release me until enough people, the war started by then but they wouldn’t release me to go onto aircrew duties until they had enough people in from, to be converted to trades, you know, as engineering trades and I could leave, so it took me nearly eighteen months from the time of being selected to being called up.
BW: So they needed enough people to be in the pool to replace you
NH: That’s right, that’s
BW: Because they could allow the engineers to move on.
NH: Yes
BW: [unclear]
NH: That’s right, yes.
BW: And what attracted you think to aircrew, was is, there simply more money, cause there was flying pay [unclear] or was it [unclear]?
NH: I wanted the glamour.
BW: Alright.
NH: A little bit it was there but I [laughs], I wanted to be a fighter pilot.
BW: I see.
NH: Yeah.
BW: And did that involve more tests and [unclear]?
NH: Not until you got onto, when I was eventually called up of course then by that time of course there the whole process was so huge that there are bottlenecks and so every stage it took time because you had to wait until you could move on to the next stage, the, either, whether held up training or something of that sort so, we start off at the ITW, which in my case was, well, first of all it started off in London, at the air crew receiving centre and we were all there, we live, we ate at the zoo, I remember,
BW: At London Zoo.
NH: At London Zoo, and lived in flats, in luxury flats in North West London and marched to the zoo for our meals.
BW: Right.
NH: But that, again, took a long time before we moved on and the next stage was to go on to the Initial Training Wing, where you did an eight week course and learned navigation and various other skills but there was a bottleneck there, I remember I went down to Brighton for a, just to occupy time, and eventually, although I’d been called up in November, November ’41, that’s right, and I was at Wick at the time when, as a fitter, on the, we were protecting the convoys coming into Liverpool but we’d been stationed at Stornoway on the Outer Hebrides,
BW: That’s where Wick is, is that right?
NH: Pardon?
BW: That’s where Wick is.
NH: No, Wick, no, Wick is on the north east coast.
BW: Ok.
NH: And now we moved over there with Hudsons, we had started with Ansons and changed over to Hudsons, when we moved up to Stornoway and then from Stornoway, we moved over to Wick. But whilst we were at Wick, I was called up for aircrew duties and that was in November ’41, I happened to be on leave at the time in Bournemouth so I got recalled from Bournemouth to Wick, which was to go back to London [laughs] to start my aircrew duties and as I say, then, we had, we hung around in Regent’s Park waiting for the next stage, well the first stage of training and that didn’t happen, this was in November ’41 and we didn’t get to Stratford until about the end of January, February ’42 and then we had this eight week course at Stratford learning navigation, doing drill, all RT and all the rest of it.
BW: So you travelled in a very short time to the length and breadth of the country cause you’ve gone from a short period of time in Brighton right up to the north of Scotland to work on aircraft protecting the convoys and then, across the other side of Scotland, then back down again, and called for [unclear] training
NH: Well, just go back a little bit, when I left, when I graduated from Halton, well, I graduated as a, what’s the right word, as an aircraftsman first class, normally I’d have an entry at, say, of a hundred, well take a hundred, apprentices leaving but ten would pass out as leading aircraftsmen, ten or fifteen would pass out as leading aircraftsmen, aircraftsmen first class, about sixty or so would pass out as aircraftsmen first class and the remainder would pass out as AC2 but the rate of pay was quite significant, a leading aircraftsman would get forty two schillings a week, which was a big rise from five and six pence,
BW: Yeah, absolutely.
NH: Yeah. So, I passed out an AC1 which is 31, 31 of 31 and six pence a week, which is quite good, I, [laughs].
BW: And was that more than you were earning in the bank previously?
NH: Oh, yes, oh yes, in the bank I was getting seventeen and six, I think it was, might have gonna up, to nearly a pound, but no, seventeen to six a week, yes,
BW: So you almost doubled
NH: No, I, and of course, as an apprentice, I’m only getting three schillings a week, for the first two weeks and then five and six pence for the last week, that’s the third week. And then when I passed out as an AC1, I would have jumped up to thirty-one and six pence a week, which is magnificent,
BW: I believe at some point during your early training, you caught pneumonia and had to be sort of
NH: Oh that was before, that was at the end of my training,
BW: Oh, I see.
NH: Yes, this was, the war had started October, November, I caught pneumonia almost [unclear] they had to, they called my mother to come up because they thought I wouldn’t live but M & B was the new drug which they’d produced and that saved my life I think because but always touch and go anyway, when I recovered and I came out, my entry had, the whole thing was telescoped, you see, did a three year course, when the war started, all sports afternoons were stopped, we worked longer hours, and the whole thing was telescoped from the three years to a much shorter one but so we were on that at the time that I went into hospital with pneumonia and when I came out, my entry had finished and they’d gone, so I was left on my own, they gave me some Christmas leave and when I came back, I just studied on my own for a few weeks and passed out on my own as an AC1. I probably had passed out as an AC2 [laughs]. So, I’ve been lucky that way.
BW: So, there was no parade for you then, unfortunately, they just allowed you
NH: No, I just, no.
BW: So you graduated [unclear]
NH: I went down to Thorney Island under 48 Squadron, which is at Coastal Command, we had Ansons then, as I said, and then we, as an AC1. Is it all getting a bit garbled for you?
BW: No, no, that’s perfectly fine. So, during your time at Thorney Island then, which is near Chichester,
NH: Yeah.
BW: You were still as a tradesman, you were an aircraftman
NH: That’s right
BW: First class
NH: Yeah.
BW: What was it like there, what sort of air, you said Ansons then, have other aircraft there too? [unclear] and Blenheims, would you work on them at all or?
NH: No, only Ansons.
BW: Ah, ok.
NH: Yeah. And of course we were there to protect the shipping coming up to Southampton and to the docks along the south coast but then, when the invasion of the low countries came, it was too dangerous and the shipping was moved up to Liverpool, Liverpool and Glasgow and so we followed the shipping up to Liverpool and we were stationed at Hooton Park.
BW: I see. So around the time of the Battle of Britain and when the invasion was looking imminent during the summer of 1940,
NH: Yeah.
BW: You and your squadron, 48 Squadron, actually moved up to Liverpool.
NH: To Liverpool and we were there for about a year I think before we moved up to, because then there were all bombed badly and the submarine menace became bigger and we moved, and so the shipping was moved further up into Glasgow and so we moved up to Stornoway,
BW: I see.
NH: And then to Wick. Don’t quite know why we did that, we were on Hudsons by that time.
BW: How did you find them to work on?
NH: Well of course [unclear] much, they’d hydraulics of course which you know, on the Anson it was a wind up undercarriage, took a hundred and twenty turns to get the wheels up, well of course there was much more hydraulics on the Hudsons, very modern by comparison with the Anson.
BW: And so, you mentioned earlier about having completed your trade training, you were called up for aircrew which is in November ‘41 thereabouts, did you apply to be a pilot or did you?
NH: Yes, I wanted to be a pilot, yeah, I wanted to be a glamourous pilot and go out with girls [laughs]
BW: [laughs] And what happened to enable the change [unclear]?
NH: Well you see that, everything, as I said, was taking so long with bottlenecks everywhere, they decided to change from being a two pilot crew to one pilot and introduced bomb aimers and bomb aimers very often failed pilots, [unclear] capable of getting an aircraft back perhaps in an emergency as the pilot was no longer capable, that was the, so, the some man crew then became a pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator, engineer and two gunners, that’s a Halifax or Lancaster.
BW: Ok.
NH: And so then of course they had a business of what they called grading and so all of us who wanted to be pilots, we had to go to a grading school and fly Tiger Moths and be graded and although we went solo, I did a very poor final test so they graded me down, I’m afraid I messed it up, I made a mess of the spin, that sort of thing but so that was very disappointing but so they transferred me to being a navigator.
BW: I see.
NH: And others who were the same, were either navigators or bomb aimers did navigator or bomb aimer training.
BW: Ok. And so, until this stage you’ve been training on Tiger Moths
NH: Tiger Moths
BW: As a pilot
NH: Yeah
BW: But I believe you were sent abroad to Canada so you
NH: Well then, then of course I went to, yes, that’s right, I went to Rivers, near Winnipeg, went over on the Queen Elisabeth, just newly constructed, that was in, that was in September ’42, yes, September ’42, oh, because of the bottleneck we gone down to Eastbourne for further navigation, for navigation training, so we did a further navigation course down there, that was after we’d failed, we failed to become pilots and went down and became navigators, this is the start of our navigation course at Eastbourne, so did a few weeks there and then we moved across, up to, somewhere near Manchester, where we stayed there before we were shipped up to Glasgow to get onto the Queen Elisabeth.
BW: And what was it like going across to Canada?
NH: Oh, quite good, I mean, we were only a few thousand aircrew going across to, a mixture of pilots and navigators, most of the pilots went down south to Texas or somewhere like that and we went to a place called Mana, called Rivers in Manitoba, in the middle of Canada, about a hundred and twenty miles from Winnipeg and so we were only going out, we were only about two or three thousand I think aircrew under training or going for training. Coming back, I, and I came back on the same boat, we landed in New York, then went to up to Moncton in Canada on the East Coast and then across to, had two or three weeks there, it’s all bottlenecks all the time before we were posted to Rivers at Manitoba, that took a three day rail journey from
BW: Wow.
NH: And we got there about the middle of September.
BW: So just in time before the winter set in.
NH: Just setting in, yes, a week or two later they froze, they sprayed a compound of water and that was the ice rink for the rest of the winter, yeah.
BW: So, did you get much flying in during that time?
NH: Oh yes, yes, yes, in Ansons again, bitterly cold because we had to do astro training was the big feature and we had to open the hatch and these pilots of course shuddered at the cold air coming in but we had to take our, take these, you know, all these [unclear] and stuff, fortunately in Canada, you know, you get these wonderful clear nights, and the stars and everything so visible, it was a, for doing astro navigation, it was ideal.
BW: So you had to
NH: But it was still to bloody cold.
BW: So you actually had to open the hatch mid flying in order to take reading the stars.
NH: Yeah, and take the reading, well, the stars you wanted, yeah. But navigation was simple in Canada because the nights were clear and the days were, cold and brisk, you know, you could see for miles, you could, you get airborne at Rivers, hundred and twenty miles from Winnipeg, and of course you could see Winnipeg because it is, all the lights were still on in Canada
BW: No blackout.
NH: No. And there’s only a few towns there anyway and you knew exactly which town, by the size, so navigation was simple.
BW: What was life like there in general, did you manage to travel out or did you meet any Canadians, at least some aircrew were stationed off base or b&bs and things but presumably you [unclear]
NH: Oh no, we lived, oh no, we were right in the prairies, we just the camp,
BW: So just yourselves and
NH: Place called Brandon, was about twenty five miles away, [unclear] I never went there, once or twice, we did get down to Londa, to Minneapolis [unclear] at Christmas there over the Christmas period but we managed to work our way down there for a, for the Christmas break
BW: And did you stay
NH: Rather special
BW: And did you stay over in hotels and things and [unclear]
NH: No, we stayed with, while went to the US the United States organisation, you know, like the Red cross naffy or whatever but being American at that time was very well appointed, we had written to them before saying we are coming, and they phoned us out, we stayed with a professor, while he was away, on national service, he was a Lieutenant colonel American Air Force but he was a professor at Minneapolis University and we stayed with him, with his wife, five of us.
BW: And was that your crew that you went with then?
NH: No, not, we weren’t crewed up then, we were just five navigators under training.
BW: Ok. And from there you, I believe, you passed out as sergeant observer navigator
NH: Sergeant observer navigator, yes,
BW: You graduated while you were in Canada.
NH: That’s right, yes, came back to Moncton to wait for our journey home, which again was on the Queen Elisabeth from New York. And then back in Glasgow, by avoiding the U-boats, but because we were so fast, they couldn’t, they couldn’t get any nearer but both the Queen Mary and the Queen Elisabeth both scootered across the Atlantic, coming back it was very different than coming out, we brought all the American troops, about fifteen thousand American troops on board.
BW: So this is pretty much at the height of the Atlantic war, then, isn’t it? When the [unclear]
NH: Yes, this is, this would be March ’43 now and we are just beginning to get over the U-boat, we are just beginning to get control of the U-boat menace, it was in ’42 the U-boat menace was at its highest, and it was a serious problem, well still was but we, yeah, we are getting on top of it by the time I came back in ’43.
BW: And so from there you went to
NH: We went to Harrogate, we were all, Harrogate was the assembly point and we were all assembled, officers went into the Majestic and sergeants went into the Grand Hotel in Harrogate, do you know them?
BW: Yes, I’ve been
NH: And the Majestic
BW: I’ve been to one, yes.
NH: Yeah. So
BW: Very nice [unclear] hotels
NH: We didn’t mind that at all, this was March, we had a couple of weeks leave in Bournemouth and back and then we were kept hanging around again, waiting to go on to our onto the OTU, which is the next step in our training, operational training unit, and that took some time, I remember, in order to occupy us they sent us up to Perth, to a flying training school that flew Tiger Moths around the, the name of the river near Perth, do you know it? Tay, is it, Tay?
BW: Tay.
NH: Lovely, anyway, lovely week, I think it was only a week or ten days, just a way of keeping us amused, before we, eventually we did get to the operational training which was at Kinloss, in northern Scotland.
BW: And was that number 19 OTU, [unclear]
NH: I don’t remember the number, [unclear] on my log book. But it’s, yes, operational at Kinloss and we were on Whitleys, so we are on a different aeroplane now. And this will be, by the time we did that, it’s August, August ’43, so it’s already taken me from November ’41 and now we are in, at August ’43,I got my navigator’s brevy but I still haven’t got, I’m still not operationally trained, that we did on a Whitley.
BW: Right. So it’s taken you, as you say, approximately two years, they needed two years
NH: yeah.
BW: To get to that operational training unit.
NH: Yeah. That’s right, yeah. And that finished for about the end of October, beginning of November ’43,
BW: Ok.
NH: So I think it be the end of October, we were posted, we were crewed up there, that was the big feature and I, you all join up together, you look around and you see who you’d like to fly with. I joined up with a chap named, sergeant, he was a sergeant, Sergeant Wilkinson, we liked the look of one another I suppose, so he and I joined and that was the usual pattern, you and the pilot joined up and you skited around and gathered in the rest of the crew which at this stage we would be five, wireless operator, gunner and a gunner.
BW: And this I believe commonly took place in just a big hangar, they amalgamated all together
NH: No, that’s right, yes
BW: And they just left them
NH: Left us to sort ourselves out, yes, a funny system.
BW: And so, you crew up with Sergeant Wilkinson,
NH: Sergeant Wilkinson, yeah.
BW: And do you recall the names of the other crew members?
NH: No, I can’t. No, I’m afraid I can’t. Oh, George Dugray, yeah, a French Canadian, oh, that was later, no, he’s the bomb aimer, oh yes, he was there too. Did George Dugray? Anyway, he joined us on the next one, the heavy conversion unit, when we got on to the Halifaxes.
BW: So
NH: He was a French-Canadian bomb aimer
BW: So if you were five crewmen initially, what were going to be flying at that point when you initially met Wilkinson and Dugray?
NH: Well, we only knew that we would probably Halifaxes or Lancasters were most likely.
BW: I see.
NH: Well the possibility of a Mosquitoes if we were lucky.
BW: So, where were you when you were looking for your crew and when you were getting yourselves together, was this at Burne or was this elsewhere?
NH: Oh no, this was at the operational training unit at Kinloss
BW: Kinloss.
NH: At Kinloss,
BW: I see.
NH: Yes, that’s when you came together
BW: I see.
NH: And up to that time we’d all been navigators but as you know you are split up and you find your crew, so with them we flew as a crew then, pilot, navigator, did we have a bomb aimer? I suppose we did have Dugray as bomb aimer, wireless operator, not an engineer, gunner. That’s right, yes, that’ll be it. That’s the five, isn’t it? One gunner, engineer, no, one gunner, bomb aimer, navigator, pilot. And wireless operator. So then, then you had to do, you went through the whole, all the daylight flying, night flying and of course very different flying conditions in Kinloss in Scotland, the blackout and very few aids and it was a very difficult and hazardous training period and a lot collided into the mountains through inexperience cause that’s what we were, totally inexperienced and there was a lot of fatalities there. So, it wasn’t an easy time.
BW: What sort of aids were you working with as a navigator then at this point?
NH: I’d be twenty-one, twenty one.
BW: What sort of navigational aids or equipment were you using at this time?
NH: Oh, hardly any
BW: So was
NH: Radio, we could get the old radio bearing, navigation and that’s it
BW: Was it all dead reckoning
NH: Otherwise dead reckoning, yeah, and that was one of the troubles as where people, they got lost and they sended through cloud and hit the high ground.
BW: And roughly how long were you on the OTU?
NH: That’s about six to eight weeks, we went the end of August, it’ll be eight weeks and we finished round about the end of October, beginning of November.
BW: So, this is October, November ’43.
NH: That’s right, yeah, yeah. And then of course we still hadn’t finished, then we got to go to the heavy conversion unit, flying the sort of aeroplanes we were going to fly on operations, which in our case was the Halifax and that was when we were posted to Rufforth to a heavy conversion unit at Rufforth which is about four miles out of York.
BW: And you were onto Halifaxes at that point.
NH: Yeah.
BW: Did you acquire any more crew members at all [unclear]?
NH: Oh yes, that’s where the engineer came, and the second gunner, that’s it. Yes, that’s right, Dugray, he did join us up at [unclear] and so were five when we went down to Rufforth and then we were joined by the other, by the mid upper gunner and by the flight engineer.
BW: Do you happen to recall their names at all or?
NH: No. I can’t.
BW: That’s alright.
NH: I can’t. Hardly anyone finished, I was the only one that finished the op, a full round of ops, they all disappeared one way or another. Well, you see, Wilkinson who I became, who became a good friend, splendid, a good looking chap too, and he became, he was going to go to university, he, when we finished our training at Rufforth, preparing to go to a squadron, we had finally finished our training and now we are fully qualified but it was quite usual for pilots to go on an experience exercise and he was sent on to do a run on on an operation on Berlin and that was the end of him and so we didn’t have a pilot and that kept us waiting again.
BW: And do you recall who eventually came
NH: Yes, I’ve got his name, what’s his name? Oh Gosh, my memory’s gone, I’m afraid,
BW: That’s alright.
NH: It’s in the logbook, he was a flying officer, so now as a sergeant I was being teamed up with a flying officer, who’d been posted from Hemswell. Well, Hemswell was a station, was a Bomber Command station in 4 Group and it achieved a terrible reputation for not pressing on to the target and Harris, the Bomber Command chief came up, called them all sorts of names, and closed the station down, Hemswell, everybody was posted, and I got one of those.
BW: I see.
NH: And so we did our, we did [unclear] game, so we had to train together again on the Halifax from Rufforth and that took us until well after Christmas, during which time I met my wife, who, the girl that became my wife.
BW: And how did you meet her?
NH: Oh, I met her at a dance, and she’d gone with, oh, she had arranged to meet a girlfriend at the Grey Rooms in York, I don’t know if you know it.
BW: No, I don’t.
NH: Oh, it was a lovely place, oh, we all got there, all the, York was full of aircrew, Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians particularly and Brits and a few Americans and of course there wasn’t much in York then, everything was closed down but there was a lovely dance place, the Dugrey Rooms, and that’s where we all went, to meet girls and that’s where I met my wife.
US: Sorry, after Williams your pilot, you then had Houston.
NH: Williams, Williams, that’s right. Flying officer Williams, he was the one who was, came to Rufforth from Hemswell we, I having lost Wilkinson and what you say the name was?
US: Williams.
NH: Williams. Oh, he had, I eventually found out he was called Turnback Williams, we are not going to the target? I’ll on that, busy
BW: Part of the reason Harris talk to these guys.
NH: Yeah. Yeah, that’s right so I did all my, I completed all my training with, as a, with him, with Williams, and from there at the end from February 44, now is it? End of 44, yes, Paul Williams of course, when he was sent out on his second Dickey for experience, that was at the height of the Berlin raids, and the losses were huge, we’d been, we’d been on those of course, if he’d come back from his, from his trip of experience
BW: Second Dickey means like a second pilot
NH: Second pilot experience, yes, yeah, so he didn’t come back and I wrote to his father and I got a nice, I might have it somewhere a nice letter from his father who is a stockbroker in London and anyway so I saw that with Williams then we completed another bit of training before we went off to the squadron which I say was about the end of February ’44.
BW: And this was the newly formed 578 Squadron.
NH: And that was the newly formed, yes, they were only formed about three months before
BW: And they were specifically
NH: From Snaith.
BW: And they were specifically flying Halifaxes Mark III as they were one of the first
NH: I was jolly lucky to get on one of those cause it was just as good as the Lancaster, radial engines Bristol and they could get up to the required height and carry a similar amount of bombs, splendid.
BW: So, your first sortie with 578 would be in February as you say,
NH: In March
BW: In March
NH: Then in February, then again the training was so much, I mean they wouldn’t escort, again got ourselves familiarised with the Mark Iii and done a couple of training runs before we were then considered to be operational and that took place in March and it was during that time the Nuremberg raid and of the pilots at Burton on the squadron, he got a posthumous VC.
BW: Did you know him?
NH: No, I didn’t know him, no, no, I’d only been on the squadron a week or so but I didn’t know him, I know, no, I didn’t know him, I didn’t really know him, I didn’t know anybody really, we kept to ourselves a
BW: You tend to associate with your crew if anything
NH: Just with the crew, didn’t mix much with anybody else, you stuck pretty close into the crew and as I had a girlfriend now in York I scuttled off there [laughs].
BW: So, it was looking pretty serious with your girlfriend
NH: Already started to look serious, yes, yeah, we got engaged in April, after I’d done about five operations. I took her down to Bournemouth to meet my family.
BW: Right. And so, what were the accommodation facilities like at Burne, this is where your 578 Squadron
NH: They weren’t bad, it was a brand-new place, you know, all Hudson.
BW: Were you billeted with the crew?
NH: Oh yes, yes, I, we were in huts of course but as sergeants we had little privileges, the sergeant’s mess and that sort of thing, reasonably comfortable of course, we were well-fed as aircrew, the local people, we always had eggs before we went and that sort of thing, things which people couldn’t get on the ration we had plenty of, plenty of chips too cause at the age of twenty one, twenty two I [unclear] of chips [laughs]
BW: [unclear]
NH: [unclear]
BW: And were you the only crew in the billet sometimes or there were two crews in there or?
NH: I think we were the only one, as far as I can remember we were the only one.
BW: And at this time there was a CO in charge
NH: Yes.
BW: Wing Commander Wilkey Wilkinson, do you recall him?
NH: Oh, I do very well, yes, he’s one chap I do remember, and I’ve never been a hero worshiper but I would think I would put him into that category. Marvellous chap, good looking, tall, great sense of humour, great, young, handsome, had every quality, but you knew that if Wilkinson was flying it was gonna be a bad one, he’d only, he wouldn’t take the easy ones, he’d always took the bad ones, great leader, he was on his second tour, too, very nice chap too because then of course I, to going on a bit further, I was with Williams, I did two operations with Williams, I didn’t remember what it was I didn’t like but I didn’t like it, I went to see Williams in great trepidation but I didn’t know what Williams I never spoke to Wing Commanders, they were far too elevated, but I went to see him and so I did my night flying with Williams so I said, we must have talked a bit, I can’t remember, so he said right leave with me, I’ll fix you up with somebody else and I went then to, I was teamed up then with Houston, Jock Houston, and we stayed together all the time, finished together, got commissioned together, got a DFC together.
BW: And so, you when you went from your crew flying with Williams at this point
NH: Yes
BH: To make the change to another crew
NH: Yes, the others all, I [unclear], yes, yeah.
BW: [unclear]
NH: [unclear]
BW: [unclear]
NH: Well, Williams did finish his tour, yes, but I don’t know who he flew, he finished the tour.
BW: The other members of your crew didn’t pick up your sense of
NH: No,
BW: [unclear]
NH: Not as far as I know. No, no.
BW: And you mentioned about Wilkinson, there’s a description here which seems to chime with what you commented about it and it’s only a short description if I can read it to you, it says, he was described by those who knew him as a tall, loose end fellow, the first impression that a stranger might have of him was that he was rather irresponsible, care-free, vague individual, but on closer acquaintance he would seem that he had one of the kindest, gentlest and most sympathetic
NH: Oh, I think that was pretty accurate
BW: Could possess
NH: Yes
BW: He had the knack of inspiring confidence in his crew, when flying I can’t remember anything disturbing him, he was huge with his men
NH: No, no. There’s my little story in that book he’s flying a strange aircraft, an unusual aircraft and he’s got an army man, and army major alongside him but oh, they couldn’t get the flaps down and the army major says to Wilkinson, can you fly this without flaps? He said, well, you are just about to find out [laughs].
BW: And it says of him because he was awarded a DSO he said, he inspired powers of leadership, great skill and determination, qualities which have earned him much success, his devoted squadron commander, his great drive and tactical abilities used in large measure to the high standard of operation to assume the squadron
NH: Yeah, he did, yeah, briefing were always made a pleasure by him being here, he made them quite different, we quite looked forward to his briefing
BW: And when you, you mentioned about him when he going out on a bad raid, were you aware that if he briefed it, it was gonna be a bad one or was it the case [unclear] the raids?
NH: No, not particularly, no, but you knew that if he was on it, it wouldn’t be an easy one.
BW: But he, he always gave the briefing whatever the raid was.
NH: Oh yes, oh yes.
BW: There was only a few at the time
NH: That’s right, yeah, yeah. Yes, I remember his briefing, that is one thing I do remember quite well. Always something to look forward to. I remember a young WAAF officer looking at him I think, Gosh, I’d like a young woman to look at me like that [laughs].
BW: So, by now you are on the early part of your tour and initially it looks like you got operations mainly over Germany, are there any other particular raids through March that you recall?
NH: No, they were all a great big jumble mainly, I, oh, there is one when we lost a lot of aeroplanes.
BW: That night be Nuremberg presumably.
NH: No, not Nuremberg, I didn’t do Nuremberg, there is some, somewhere like, oh, retro memory for names, the size of the Ruhr, a fairly long trip and I remember coming out, they’d briefed us to come down from the target area right down to five thousand feet, it seemed odd tactic, I remember going up with another navigator to Nuremberg, I don’t like this and he said, I wish we weren’t doing this one and he didn’t come back. We lost six that night. So, I don’t know what that tactic was all about.
BW: So, at this time, when you
NH: Oh, I’m trying to remember the name, that, Karlsruhe,
BW: Karlsruhe. And so at this when you were doing operations, you’ve gone from the billet to the ops room to be briefed, you’ve had your briefing, just talk me through then what you would do from there in terms of boarding the aircraft, the checks you would do, what sort of things would be going on then.
NH: Well, we had our own, quite a lot of instruments, we had Gee for example, the bomb aimer would have his stuff but I would have all my charts, gee charts, ordinary plotting charts, what were they called? [unclear] and then the Gee charts, all rather luminous, astro navigation, [unclear] anyway, waste of time most of the time but always had to do it, sextant, all the stuff had to be checked and so, you know, that took up quite a long time, you did that some with the pilot, checking the routes and marking off certain points on it.
BW: And H2S was coming in at this time.
NH: Oh, we didn’t have H2S.
BW: That wasn’t on your aircraft.
NH: We didn’t have it, no,
BW: And was the Gee equipment located right where you position were?
NH: Right in front like that
BW: Ok.
NH: Had a table, table, yeah.
BW: In some aircraft [unclear] different.
NH: And that, that was an incredibly, wonderful instrument I had, of course the Germans were jamming it as much as they could and you’d lose it, you’d, what it did help you to do was to get an accurate wind, cause that’s so incredibly important, if you got an accurate wind then doing jet reconning isn’t going to be too bad and you could get Gee fixes right up to inside the Dutch coast so it gave you a whole string of fixes and a whole comprehension of the wind you know was established by the time you got there. And then, the same thing coming back, you, I’d have, I’d be searching madly to get the signals eventually appearing and it’s marvellous when the, when they just started to appear on your radar screen, and you’d, and you’d get a proper fix, because when you tried astro navigation or even wireless, there were so many errors involved.
BW: Was your pilot good in terms of sticking to the course? Was he [unclear] following your instructions?
NH: Oh yes, of course, oh yes, oh yes, very good, you know, if I take an astro shot, they had to keep very steady because you have a steady platform to get, I don’t know if you know about sextant?
BW: Yes.
NH: You know, yes, getting the star dive into the bubble and holding it there, if the plane lurches up you’ve lost the, it, you’ve gotta get it back again,
BW: And so, you found that you worked quite well presumably [unclear]
NH: Oh, very well, with Houston, terrible memory for names, I even forget my own sometimes
BW: What was it like actually in the environment of a Halifax then, was it pretty roomy, has a reputation of being a fairly roomy aircraft.
NH: Not bad, not bad really
BW: [unclear]
NH: No, no, not when you compare it [unclear] like the Whitley
BW: And I believe the heating, say for example in a Lancaster kept the wireless operator and the navigator pretty warm
NH: yes
BW: Is it similar in a Halifax or not?
NH: Ah, yeah, pretty I was never cold, I never remember being cold,
BW: How did it feel in your flying kit? Was it [unclear]
NH: I didn’t wear much, had a Mae West on, and a parachute harness of course and that was, oh, and an aircrew sweater, and that was about it, don’t [unclear], I think flying boots, yes, yeah, flying boots, cause you could if you were, if you bailed out and you landed, you could cut the top off and they looked like ordinary shoes, ordinary boots
BW: And so you were pretty comfortable in the interior of the Halifax.
NH: Oh, pretty, reasonably comfortable.
BW:
NH: Yes, yes, I had a good desk and all the instruments that I needed. Wind thing, what you call, wind setting, forgot what they called, wind, don’t they use that much, you had to be [unclear] sort of view the sea at eighteen thousand feet, you can’t do that
BW: Did you find that you had to use oxygen much if you were above [unclear] feet or?
NH: Oh yes, about ten thousand feet, most certainly.
BW: Were most of your ops above that [unclear]?
NH: Oh yes, as soon as you get to, well pretty well from five thousand feet or even before, I can’t remember exactly but you certainly wouldn’t want to be [unclear] oxygen above ten thousand feet
BW: You noted as well one particular date you were in the air on the night of D-Day.
NH: Yes, yes.
BW: Do you recall the briefing for D-Day primarily?
NH: No
BW: Were you aware that is was gonna be the start of the invasion?
NH: Well, we were all suspicious but nobody knew anything definite but of course so much everybody knew that D-Day was gonna come soon but that anything definite not until we, well, we were, the target was an easy one on the Northern Coast of France, just inside, gun batteries of some sort, and we bombed that but as we are coming back, and as we are coming back near [unclear], both the gunners shouted out, all the shipping that they could see and so all this shipping was just on the invasion, that was June the 6th.
BW: What sort of time would that be, was it early morning?
NH: About three or four o’clock in the morning. It be in the logbook there. Be about that time.
BW: The gun battery that you mentioned, was it Mont Fleury,
NH: Right.
BW: And that was covering Gold Beach, which was one of the British invasion beaches.
NH: Yeah, yeah. Cause we did two or three, Montgomery, that was later on, after the armies had got established but got held up by the Germans and Montgomery requested Bomber Command to drop their bombs on the German, where the Germans were and we did that, we got a letter of thanks from him because that’s form where the armies could move on.
BW: Were you made aware of the results of the bombing on that particular D-Day mission?
NH: Not really, no, not until we got this letter from Montgomery thanking us for, yeah, I can’t think that we got any particular, no. Of course, we were taking photographs all the time, and we were given some sort of marking for the accuracy and the standard and that was posted up on the boards.
BW: Did it feel like a competition, where you
NH: A little bit like that, oh yes, a little bit like that. Bomb aimers, you know, we, in that book [unclear] claims that we were used for these targets because we had a bomb aiming accuracy record.
BW: Quite [unclear]
NH: No, but, I think that, what is, my God, the insignia of the squadron has got
US: An arrow
NH: A arrow, isn’t it? A bomb aiming accuracy or something is called.
US: Just called accuracy.
NH: Accuracy, yes, yes. So we had this supposedly reputation. I don’t know [laughs].
BW: Well, the gun position that was there at Gold Beach was actually a target given to the Green Howards, the army regiment that was to assault that.
NH: Oh, was that? Oh, was it?
BW: And that particular action was where sergeant major Stanley Hollis got the VC, [unclear] boxes near that battery. So coincidentally the raid that you were on happened to be the target which sergeant major Hollis was the only VC on D-Day.
NH: That’s interesting too. Yeah, yeah.
BW: There was only one [unclear] I can see on that raid and that was a Halifax flown by squadron leader Watson
NH: OH yes.
BW: Who was shot down
NH: yes.
BW: [unclear]
NH: I think I’ve seen the name but I don’t know him. No, no.
BW: So, at this time during April, May, June, most of your targets are in France
NH: Yes
BW: With the idea of supporting D-Day [unclear]
NH: Yeah, D-Day the invasion, yes, yes,
BW: And that continues
NH: [unclear] targets of course, by comparison with the Ruhr and Berlin
BW: And by easy that I assume that they were lighter, more lightly defended, is that right?
NH: Not so much that they’re but quicklier have a long, the big thing somewhere like Nuremberg or Berlin, even if you got to, you had a long trail back to UK and the German fighters knew that and would wait for the trail of bombers coming out of the target and shooting them out then but so and they had a long time to do it whereas going to somewhere Paris or somewhere like that, they didn’t have that length of time to do it.
BW: did you encounter many fighters that you [unclear]?
NH: No, I can’t remember, well, I think the most famous of course was the concentration, I did a daylight on the Ruhr in September and then you saw the concentration, what a concentration of bombers looked like cause we flew at night and we didn’t see how it really looked. But on this occasion we flew daylight to the Ruhr in September and I flew with a strange crew, which is slightly unsettling, their navigator had gone sick or something, and but then you saw aircraft colliding and of course you saw all the bombs dropping from other aircraft dropping so, you know, getting so close to releasing their bombs on you and the gunners would be shouting out, you know, he’s right over, he’s right over us now, and quite often it did happen that bombs from one aircraft hit another one, underneath.
BW: Did it happen on that occasion when you were?
NH: No, no, I never saw it actually happen,
BW: Just [unclear].
NH: No, I did, I did see aircraft, the other thing was collisions, when you got several hundred aircraft, well, at nighttime you don’t know what has happened, whether there’s a collision or whether they’re being shot by ack-ack, but at daylight you could see and I did see a collision, two aircraft hitting one another,
BW: And what, how could you describe what [unclear]?
NH: No, I can’t, we turned away and it was gone but didn’t see anybody come out.
BW: And so during [unclear]
NH: No explosion, that’s all.
BW: And so, during the raid on Stuttgart, during the daylight, could you see, did you get a chance to see clearly the formation? The bomber formation?
NH: Oh, not really, no, you know, of course you know that they are at night because you get into their slipstream, so you know and that’s what you want, of course you want to be close, you don’t want to be isolated that’s when they can pick you off, the whole object of flying in a gaggle or stream was to protect one another with your, what’s the stuff? Window and, you know, confuse the enemy defenses radar so you were conscious at nighttime, but you didn’t see the full horror of it.
BW: And what was your impression during the daylight raid?
NH: Well, I thought, how the hell can you get through that lot? Approaching the Ruhr, this is a lovely September afternoon and you could see the smoke hovering over the Ruhr from such a long way away, I got a feeling we could see it almost from the Dutch coast, and then you think, then of course within the smoke, which is just the puffs of smoke from the ack-ack, you could see the brusts of the showers, well, there’s no penetration, you cannot penetrate that lost, but looks, it probably looks worst than it really is.
BW: In each case your pilot kept on, there was no consideration of turning back [unclear] target?
NH: Oh no, no, but no, no, we were, I think we were pretty that way, we did what we had to do, and although it is nerve-racking when the bomb aimer is insistent on, you know, my God, why doesn’t he press the bloody button? It was he said, bomb’s gone, yeah, that we could turn away.
BW: Were there any occasions where you had to make a second run over the target or not?
NH: Not exactly the, I ‘m not quite sure but I do know that we’ve been approaching the target and we’ve been told to hold off, the Pathfinder, the master bomber is directing us from underneath, usually in something like a Mosquito and he is calling us by our codename whatever, main force, main force, whatever the code, and he said and he’d be telling us, the bomb, overshoot the red TI’s or bomb the green markers or in one case he couldn’t tell because of the smoke and he couldn’t get accurate and he told the whole force to orbit, that was a nasty experience too,
BW: And the whole force at this stage [unclear]
NH: Would have to turn and wait and come in again until he could give the instructions on which markers to attack, they were of course people like, who has got the VC?
BW: Cheshire?
NH: Cheshire, yeah. Incredible people they were. They would stay, I mean, they would stay on the target for the whole time, going round and round, giving the directions to the main force, and asking for new TI’s or something like that if he wanted it.
BW: So, moving on from the D-Day operations, the squadron was then tasked with hitting the V-Weapon sites
NH: Yes, we, those were fairly easy targets, just inside the Dutch and French coast, yeah. We [unclear] several of those, three or four of those.
BW: Do you recall much about what was explained to you about the targets, we know now that they were being [unclear], did you know that?
NH: I don’t think so, I can’t remember, no, I just know that they were, well eventually of course when the flying bombs came up cause they came up, they came off fairly earlier, in was about August wasn’t it? July, August? Well, after, well then we knew them, that sort, they were that sort of targets, not until they, they’d actually arrived.
BW: So, from there through July and August, I think in total you flew thirty-nine operations, right?
NH: Thirty-nine altogether, yes. And of course the normal operation, prior to that., had ben thirty but because we were getting these easy French targets, they made us do thirty nine. And I, when they did say you’re finished, I was quite surprised, I’d thought they’d keep me I wasn’t all that bothered, I was getting used to it and it think sorry there won’t be an end you just carry on to the end and I accepted that I think.
BW: So you would have gone on for the duration of the war.
NH: Yes, I was slightly surprised when they said, you can stop and get.
BW: And what happened at that point, how was it explained to you your tour would end? What happened [unclear]?
NH: No explanation, I was just told that I would be posted on a certain day to in this case to Marston Moor as an instructor. But of course before that I’d been commissioned, Jock Houston and myself both got commissioned and we both got and then shortly after that we both got DFCs. Oh, we got that after I left the squadron, we got them afterwards, we were commissioned before we left the squadron, about a month or so before and then we got the DFC about a month or so after we left the squadron.
BW: And did you go to the palace to receive the DCF [unclear]?
NH: No, it came in the post, it came in the post with a letter from King George, signed by King George and that was stolen, we had a burglary and some bastard stole it, including the letter which was in some respect more important than the DFC. I got the DFC changed
BW: And that was soon after, that was soon after you’d been awarded it, it happened or was it
NH: No, no, it happened, oh, about twenty years ago.
BW: So still, right, still, as recently as that.
NH: Yeah, but we were in Muscat in Oman and this burglary happened whilst we were away.
BW: But you managed to get a replacement for
NH: I got a replacement, yes, they charged me a hundred pounds for it but it’s not quite the same cause I haven’t got the letter from King George.
BW: A shame. And so how was your relationship at this point with your girlfriend, cause you’ve been on pos, a pretty intense period through [unclear].
NH: Oh, well, every, you see, I suppose, in some respects I missed out a bit, I was very friendly with Jock but the other I, I went and had a beer occasionally with them but I was so eager, I was so wrapped up with Dorothy that every opportunity, I just speared off into York and I didn’t spend much time on the squadron but I, I used to take my inflight rations, because we got chocolate and chewing gum and other things and I couldn’t eat them, I was too frightened to eat them, and so I’d take them into York ands give them to her, I ran up to her office, which is on the fourth story of the LNER headquarters building in York and bang on her door and give her my inflight rations, sweets and chocolate mostly cause these things were rationed at that time.
BW: And that must have made your visits special for her.
NH: Yeah [laughs].
BW: [unclear]
NH: Yeah. Well if I wasn’t flying that night, I’d rush into York and rush up and tell her I’d be there and wait for, meet her after she left work.
BW: At what stage during the day would you find out whether or not you were on ops or not?
NH: Well, usually in the morning, you round about, just round about midday as I remember you’d know whether you’d go and operate that night or not. I do remember one occasion when we, we thought we were going to operate and that was when the flight engineer we’d, it was in June cause its, the nights were brighter, I think we were due for a take-off about ten o’clock and it was getting dusk and as usual everything goes very quiet, you wait for the start-up pistol and all engines would then start revving up, start the engines up and revving up, make a crescendo of noise of course when you’ve got sixteen or eighteen four-engines, all going and on this occasion there is always a little pause, you see you check your aircraft, you check everything and then you sort of hang around for a few minutes, I was there waiting for the [unclear] pistol, signal to get in and start up and on this occasion the flight engineer, we’d done about fourteen trips, he said, I’m not going tonight, and he wouldn’t, he said he wasn’t going, so of course the tower had to be informed that we weren’t, we had a crew deficiency and everybody came out then, the CO and the flight engineer leader and the medical officer and they took him to the rear engine to talk to him and took him off and we thought, well, by this time all the other aircraft had started up and are travelling round the peri-track looking at us curiously wondering what, why we hadn’t started up and we are waving them to say, well, clear off, we’re not going but then the engineer nearly came rushing out saying I’m [unclear] [laughs] so we had a start-up and all we did like that.
BW: So you then got, were you having to get back in the aircraft at this point?
NH: Oh, of course, yes. And off we had to go but then we were Tail End Charlies and that’s another thing you don’t like you don’t wanna be amongst the gaggle.
BW: And so you, how did you feel being at the back of the bomber stream then?
NH: Well, I suppose we must have made it up, you know, put a bit [laughs] more throttle on and we, I think we reached them in the end because what you do, you assemble at same point or something like that, that’s the usual thing, the squadrons all take off from the various aerodromes, say in Yorkshire and Spurn Point was a favorite assembly point and you’d set off from there, which there is no formation, you just keep in the stream, and so of course by the time the assembly had taken place and they had set off, we were catching up.
BW: How did you feel during the flight having had [unclear]?
NH: I didn’t like it, I didn’t like it [laughs] I [unclear] much more nervous, well, I’ve always felt nervous but felt a lot more nervous that night and that’s a clear memory of one flight I do have, yeah.
BW: You mention that just feeling nervous and feeling that you could have your inflight rations when you were airborne, you managed to overcome that, did you [unclear].
NH: [unclear] do it, no, chewing gum, I had the chewing gum but didn’t need anything else, coffee, I’d have, I’d drink the coffee and eat and the chewing gum but I was too frightened to eat anything else [laughs]. I waited for my eggs and bacon, egg and chips like got back.
BW: Did you recall the rest of the crew felt in a similar way?
NH: I think they felt similar, fairly similar, yeah, I think so, I think we all felt pretty much the same.
BW: Did you ever talk about it?
NH: No, no, that’s a strange thing, it’s only in the last few years that I’ve ever talked about it, Dorothy never wanted me to hear me talk about it and I never did, I never thought about it and it’s only sort of more or less than she died that I’ve given it any thought.
BW: And at the time did you talk to your crew mates or did they tell you how it felt on the operations night?
NH: No, never talked about it, never, never, no, it’s a, I look back a lot of it and I think, this is a bit strange really cause I think about it a lot now and talk about it quite a bit but for thirty or forty years never thought about it, hardly, hardly, [unclear].
BW: And how does it feel now, reflecting back on that time?
NH: Well, it’s a different time, you know, it’s something which I didn’t, something which is very different to anything, but you know it’s an experience which you’d never imagined that you’d go through really.
BW: And you mentioned now at this stage of your career that you’d come off operations, you were then posted to Marston Moor as instructor.
NH: That’s right, yes, for six months, six months tour and then we got married in June and when I came back from my honeymoon, I was told I was posted back onto operations to go with Tiger Force against Japan.
BW: And is this June ’45?
NH: This is June ’45, the war, the European war had ended and that ended in May, was it May? Yeah, is it.
BW: That’s right.
NH: Yeah and I’ve finished my six months rest and so I was posted back onto a second tour which happened to be with, what I called the force?
BW: Tiger Force.
NH: Sorry?
US: Tiger.
NH: Tiger Force, with Tiger Force. Yes, [unclear] to, and we were going to do something similar to what we did against Germany. That was, but that was on Lincolns, was it Lancasters or Lincolns? Wasn’t Halifaxes? Either Lancasters or Lincolns, I got the feeling it was Lincolns. Cause then after the war I flew in, I was on 50 Squadron which was at Waddington.
BW: At Waddington.
NH: Yeah, that was after the war, that was in 1950, talking about 1947, ’48, no, ’48.
BW: So you were earmarked to go with Tiger Force out to the Far East
NH: Yeah. We did
BW: Did that happen?
NH: yeah. No, no, we did our training and we didn’t have to do much, it was, you know, becoming acquainted, with a slightly new aircraft and we were all experienced people, all done our tour of ops, all being instructors so we are a very experienced crew we did, we just did a little bit of familiarization and we are ready to go and then they dropped the atom bomb so we didn’t go and we all got split up then.
BW: So you were all prepared to go and then you continued your post first to a training as a crew
NH: Yes
BW: Together and I guess you were all I guess earmarked at the same to go to the Far East but
NH: Yeah
BW: But you said it didn’t happen
NH: No, and we would have gone of course if they hadn’t dropped the atom bombs.
BW: And so, just talk us through your subsequent career which I believe involved transport command, fighter command
NH: Well of course [unclear] lot of funny little jobs like on a recruiting center and I was eventually had a sort of a career posting as an instructor at the RAF [unclear] at Cosford which was, if I’d played my cards right, would have done me some good, but I didn’t, I volunteered for flying, I have tried to go back on flying and they posted me back on transport command, but then Dorothy was expecting her babies and after a while I asked much to their irritation I think and it never did me any good, they posted me back to Bomber Command.
BW: And where did you get posted to?
NH: To, well, first of all I did a conversion, I became a navigator, bomb aimer, I did a bomb aiming course at Lindholme, near Doncaster and then from there I was posted to 50 Squadron at Waddington and that was when Dorothy had her babies, twins, and we all moved into quarters at Waddington and I became adjutant to 50 Squadron and my Co’s a man named Peach and that was a most enjoyable experience, I really enjoyed that time, we flew Lincolns.
BW: I was going to ask actually because at this time Jet aircraft are becoming more widely [unclear].
NH: [unclear] was just coming into service, yes, in Bomber Command.
BW: Did you get a chance to fly in it?
NH: No, I didn’t. No, no.
BW: And so what happened after that, were you involved at all in the Berlin airlift for example or not?
NH: No, because, as I say, I would have been if I stayed on transport command, that’s where I didn’t do myself any good by asking for this, but I didn’t know that Berlin airlift, I would have I wish I could have done that now but I got this request answered and was posted to 50 to Bomber Command but I made a mistake though.
BW: And at what stage did you become flight controller?
NH: Well, this is a, from Waddington I was posted to Scampton as an instructor, again I wish I’d protested and I and stayed on longer but I, we were posted to Scampton, as an instructor and then I hadn’t been offered a permanent commission but they did offer me a restricted permanent commission but it had to be either in the air traffic control branch or the fighter control branch, so I chose the fighter control branch, I wish I, somehow I wish I could afford that more and stay, and let me stay on aircrew and I think I’d have prospered more so then I, I did the course on fighter control and yeah that’s and from there I was posted to Patrington, how do we call those units? Fighter control unit.
BW: And this was at Patrington?
NH: Patrington, yeah.
BW: Patrington.
NH: In East Yorkshire.
BW: Ok.
NH: And then I went from, from there I became training officer and that was a nice post I became training officer to the Hull fighter control unit, [unclear] unit, based at Sutton, that was most enjoyable.
BW: What did you like about it?
NH: Well, I was my own boss, I was both adjutant for a long while, was adjutant and training officer, I had the use of the staff car, say I was my own boss, we had a nice house in Withernsea, no, not in Withernsea, in
US: Wasn’t Cottingham?
NH: Cottingham. In Cottingham, yeah. Nice house in Cottingham, we had some pleasant friends in the village and that was a most enjoyable time, I was very, I became very popular with the people, with the auxiliary people who were of course all civilians but I enjoyed their company I got on well with them so that was quite a nice [unclear], from there so I did a full tour there and then we were posted to Germany doing, well doing an operational job, you know, fighter control unit first of all at [unclear] and then at [unclear].
BW: And that I suppose saw you through to, through the Sixties and
NH: Yeah, and right up until
BW: The Seventies
NH: Yes, I did a year in Borneo on my own and joined the confrontation, nobody knows about that, do they? When we fought the Indonesians I’d, of course that was a year what they called an unaccompanied tour, we were based on a little island called Labuan on the north coast of Borneo, which is enjoyable up to a point but I didn’t like being separated all that time from the family.
BW: What sort of things were you doing out there?
NH: Oh well, the Indonesians were trying to control the whole of Borneo and they were claiming it but we said no, the northern part, including, what’s the oil rich place? Begins with a b. Brunei. Kuching and, that’s Kalimantan and then, we said, no, that all belongs to Malaysia, Malaysian federation which at that time includes Singapore but the Indonesians wanted the whole of Borneo as part of the Indonesia so we said, no, you can’t have it, this is all, so we had a four year war, we didn’t call it a war, we called it a confrontation.
BW: Is this the Malaysian insurgency?
NH: Yeah. Yeah, well, it is an insurgency, but of course Singapore was part of it and Malaysia so we eventually Indonesia gave up and accepted the status quo as we said it should be and we had Javelins at that time so we were controlling Javelins along the border, which was way undefined, you couldn’t and of course we had Gurkas out there and Indonesians were scared stiff of them and it was good jungle warfare, very good for anybody who wanted an army career it was ideal training, not too many casualties, a couple of hundred or so were killed, but we had, but we have radar jamming, Lincolns, not Lincolns, Hastings, we had Hastings out there doing our radar jamming and we controlled the Javelins, we had our Javelins which would come onto the island and jet airborne wherever we saw anything that might be a useful target. So I commanded that little unit, I had about sixty or seventy men and all radar equipment, that sort of little encampment of my own, was quite nice and six officers, and seventy men and we had a marvelous time, laughed like anything, all the time, oh yeah, drank a lot, we drank the hell of a lot. Dorothy never stopped saying how shocked she was [laughs] [unclear].
BW: And so after late Fifties through the Sixties
NH: Yes, that’s the Mid Sixties, the confrontation finished in ’66, well, that’s when I came back, I came back in June ’66, and the confrontation stopped just after that and then I came back to, oh, Scotland again, to, up to Buchan, is it Buchan?
US: Peterhead, yeah.
NH: Peterhead, yeah. Peter, yeah, Peterhead, Buchan. Onto a, well, there we are looking at, we are looking after, looking at Russian aircraft, that was the interesting part there was watching for the Bisons and what not coming out of the Russian bases up at, you know, beyond.
BW: Beyond Murmansk and.
NH: Beyond Murmansk, yeah. They’d come out into the Atlantic, they’d be picked up by the Norwegian radar and we would [unclear] them then to come down between the Iceland gap and the
BW: Faroe islands.
NH: Faroe islands, Shetlands, my memory is terrible, anyway we were waiting for them to come through, past the Iceland gap and they’d go out into the Atlantic while we had a flight of, what were they in those days, not the Javelins, what was after the Javelins? Hunters, Hunters? What were the ones before the Lightning? No, it was the Lightnings, the Lightnings, of course it was. Yeah, the Lightnings, we had Lightnings up at Kinloss, or Lossiemouth? Lossiemouth, they were up there on the and the Americans had Phantoms in Iceland so we would scramble when we, as soon as we saw these coming, being handed over, they were handed over to us by the Norwegians, we probably couldn’t see them then but then when we knew they were there and eventually they would appear on our radar and certain time after that we would scramble the fighters from Lossiemouth and the Phantoms from Reykjavik and at first the Lightnings didn’t have the range to get to them and very frustratingly they would turn back because of lack of fuel, the Phantoms would come on and make the interception and then come onto Scotland and land, but then when the Lightning Mark VI came in, we could make the interception properly and return. But that was quite interesting for a while because we also had radar up on top of the Faroes, right on top, no, not the Faroes, the Shetlands, right up on the top island, Saxa Vord, that’s, there’s a radar station up there, so there, that was a bit of an interest and then I was finally posted back to Germany and that, did my final tour in Germany on a NATO, on a NATO post. We had a German commandant then, Brigadier, German, he was, by that time the Germans had bene reconstituted but we had control of the fighter element, the Germans weren’t allowed to control, we were [unclear] of course for, to intercept the Russians in case there was any sort of attack but we had, but they had to have RAF controllers out there, the Germans, under all their constitutional rules weren’t allowed to do this so although they provided all the manning for it, we did the actual operating of the stand-by fighters, what did we have then? Lightnings, did we? Lightnings, yes, Lightnings, and they were at places like Laarbruch, Bruggen and somewhere else, there were three, Gutersloh, yes, we had the triangle of those three and then of course Monchengladbach.
BW: And so
NH: So I finished my tour there and made a lot of good friends, [unclear] we were Germans, Dutch, British and that very pleasant finished my career really, made some good friends who stayed friends right up till now, those who survived, even the Germans, the German commandant of the German regiment, he became, I still talk to him every week on the telephone [laughs]
BW: And so
NH: Oberst Wolfgang Ostermar
BW: Wolfgang Ostermar
NH: Wolfgang, yeah, we went on holidays together, became very close, you know.
BW: And is he a similar age to you?
NH: A year younger.
BW: So he’d been around the year, presumably in opposing forces when you [unclear]
NH: He was, he was, and he was taken prisoner by the Americans.
BW: Really? Did
NH: But he’s an Anglophile, speaks excellent English, same as his wife does. Did his training, of course he became a fighter controller but trained by us in Britain.
BW: Do you recall briefly what his wartime service was? Was he a pilot or a gunner or [unclear]?
NH: No, he was ground staff.
BW: Right. So there was no chance of him being
NH: When we’d been on holiday together, people made romantic conclusions, you know, a German and a British exile, sorry, good friends,
BW: But it wasn’t
NH: Not like that, no.
BW: And so you left the RAF and NATO
NH: Yeah.
BW: What was your civilian career, what did you, did you [unclear]?
NH: I enjoyed the last couple of years, I did a correspondence course which is organized by the service, my [unclear], what did I do?
US: Agency and business studies.
NH: Agency and business studies, that’s right, yes, and it was such an easy posting in Germany I was able to do this with a lot of enjoyment and I thought, well, I can go in human relations or something like that, I’m made for that and it meant a two week course in a [unclear] to start with, then about eighteen months correspondence, finishing up the six weeks again at Chelsea and we happened to be in the Chelsea barracks near the Chelsea officer’s mess but we were told, the Chelsea officer’s, the guards officers not the, not any ordinary mess it’s the guards officer’s mess and we were told very strictly we were not, we may be officers but we were not entitled to go into the guards officer’s mess [laughs].
BW: You mentioned before we started the interview you were security on the ton air project
NH: Well I, having got the H&C, I wrote lots and lots of letters people offering my services and I got reasonable replies from quite a number and I was offered several jobs, I eventually left the air force in November 1970 and I came up here, [unclear] they seemed puzzled as I, I wanted to come up here, why do you want to come up here then? [laughs] because I suppose hopefully you are going to offer me a job. So, they did in fact, I became assistant to the chief designer, they offered me two jobs actually, they offered me a job on Tornado cockpit which was still on the drawing board, I could have either be that job or be assistant to the chief designer, so I said, I’m not qualified to cock pit design work, so I think I better take the other one so I did that, which was quite a nice job, I learned a tremendous amount cause I worked in the main drawing office with him and got to know all the chaps and what they were doing and of course I say the Tornado was still on the drawing board it goes now in production but that was still very much a live product. And so I got to learn in eighteen months so I did that [unclear], I learned a lot and then the chap who is the chief security officer was an ex wing commander and I had, and he still, I want, I want to retire very soon, do you want to take my job over? So, that’s promotion anyway, so I did, I took, George Kennedy, wing commander George, he’d been an ex apprentice like me, but much earlier, and when he, well, I went and joined him as his assistant, first of all about eighteen months, two years, and then took over completely when he retired and that really was a splendid job because the Tornado was still not flying but it was full of classified information and working with the Germans and the Italians, our own Ministry of Defenses and who of course were very hard on us if we gave any information away it was all very and of course the Cold War was on, you know, and Munich we had plenty of Cold War suspects and [unclear] around Munich, eager to get hold of the information about the Tornado.
BW: And so, you were very limited about what you could and couldn’t say at the time.
NH: Oh yes, very much, yes, but it’s very, eventually I did get hold of because these technical people and engineers [unclear], the last thing they wanted to know was about is security, they want to show off their knowledge and they want to write papers and get their names noticed and things like that their ego, you know publicity, whereas we of course, the security side, wanted to restrict it, well, not because we ourselves wanted it, the Ministry of Defense, they provided the contracts and if we broke the rules, they would start threatening that there would be a loss of contract work. So that’s I, I managed to, because I had experience in aircraft all, you know, I think I was able to work all the people like flight test engineers, the flight crews, the [unclear] like Paul Millet, who is the chief test pilot at the time but he took over from, oh, famous wartime pilot, forgot the, I’ll get it in a minute, anyway I had a good time because I got on well with these people.
BW: And so, looking back at your career and the association you have with Bomber Command, how does it feel now looking back?
NH: Well, occupies my thoughts continuously cause I’m on my own now, I’ve been on my own for nearly elven years, it occupies a tremendous amount of time, I can’t read but I do have listening books which I enjoy and music but otherwise I, I have to use my own thoughts to pass the time and I do it a lot.
BW: And have you been able to keep in touch with progress in terms of the memorials to Bomber Command, how do you feel about the tributes and memorials that have been paid these days?
NH: Well, I love it and Dorothy and I went once to St Paul’s, that would be about, oh, about the year 2000, and I can’t even remember what it was for, is for, I know the chap who was the, oh gracious me, trying to remember, he was head of the air force, and he was also president of Bomber Command.
BW: The name that speaks to my mind are Paul Enteder.
NH: No, long after him, no, long after them.
BW: I see.
NH: He’s about my age.
BW: I see.
NH: Oh Gosh, anyway, we did go to this ceremony at St Paul’s cathedral, it be about three or four years before she died so, be about 2000 or something like that, we had a Lancaster flying over York, we all came out of the service and assembled on the steps, but what was the question?
BW: Have you been to Hyde Park memorial [unclear]?
NH: No, I’d like to, near the Green Park one, you mean?
BW:
NH: No, I haven’t, but I know of it and I and Tony Iveson , who was, this is how I did have a connection with, because he was in 4 Group the time as I was, and he led all the staff to make the memorial, he was on, I heard him on Desert island Discs, he’s dead now, but I couldn’t see it if I went I couldn’t see it.
BW: yeah.
NH: I used to, well, I am a member of the IMF club still but I haven’t’ ben there for three or four years.
BW: How do you, what are your thoughts about the memorial center that’s been set up in Lincoln, the International Bomber Command Center?
NH: I don’t know anything about it.
BW: They have now unveiled the memorial spire and the walls which have the names of all the fifty five thousand and something aircrew who were lost during the war and they are now building, or going to start building the Chadwick Center which will house documents, artifacts, there will be audio recordings as well such as this one, the digital
NH:
BW: That will be in the memorial center in Lincoln
NH: Is that a new purpose build
BW: It’s just outside, it’s on one of the hills outside of Lincoln.
NH: Oh! When is it going to be opened?
BW: The center should be opened later this year
NH: There will be a lot of publicity attached to that one. Pretty sure I can’t see much.
BW: I just wondered whether you’d be informed of it and today
NH: I haven’t been informed of it, I’d like to know about it but I can’t do, I can’t see it, so , you know, provided, I hope I shall hear about it.
BW: Well, I can post the details out to you and the information
NH: Right, yes,
BW: You know
NH: I’d like that. Because if I can’t read, Anthony can read it out to me.
BW: Yeah. So
NH: But I’m restricted in movement and everything else now, I don’t really want to go anywhere.
BW: I see. The, there aren’t any other questions that I have for you, are there any other particular recollections that may have come to mind you wish to talk about or else, anything else I may have missed?
NH: I’m sure there will be when you’re gone [laughs], I can’t, I think, oh, I’ve surprised myself [unclear]
BW: Well, it’s been very interesting to talk to you, you’ve given an awful lot of information
NH: Is it?
BW: [unclear] very happy with that.
NH: [unclear], I seen, I’m very happy with that. That’ll give me a better pleasure anyway.
BW: Thank you very much for your time.
NH: Ok.
BW: [unclear] Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Neil Harris
Creator
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Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisNG160128
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:53:47 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
Neil Harris wanted to join the RAF because he was looking for an exciting life experience and an opportunity for further education. He started as a flight mechanic before training as a pilot. Remembers being trained in different locations across the country, from Brighton to Kinloss, in Scotland. Mentions a particular night, when they took off late and had to catch up with the bomber stream. Flew with 48 and 578 Squadron. Shares his memories of D-Day, when he was targeting a gun battery in Northern France. Remembers his life after the war, when he was sent to Indonesia in the 60s during the Borneo confrontation.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Nuremberg
Scotland--Wick
France
France--Ver-Sur-Mer
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
50 Squadron
578 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
fitter airframe
Gee
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Hudson
Lincoln
love and romance
Master Bomber
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
pilot
promotion
RAF Burn
RAF Halton
RAF Kinloss
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Rufforth
RAF Waddington
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/913/11155/AKnightD180117.2.mp3
a1c603db2ac36daa39476c25f6ee8d4f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Knight, Dave
David Knight
D Knight
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer David Knight (b. 1924, 433310 Royal New Zealand Air Force). He flew operations with 75 and 9 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Knight, D
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: It’s Wednesday the 17th of January 2018 and I’m at the home of David Knight born 15 November 1924 in Matamata, New Zealand. RNZAF navigator, NZ 433310, warrant officer, in Nelson, New Zealand. David joined the RNZAF in 1943, trained in Canada and joined 75 New Zealand Squadron in March 1945 at RAF Mepal. Completed two war ops and numerous Exodus trips before moving to 9 Squadron in June for Tiger Force training. David returned to New Zealand in December 1945. David, thanks for welcoming me into your home. Can you give me a little bit of your, where you were born and grew up and why you wanted to join the Royal New Zealand Air Force please?
DK: Yes. Well, I was born in Matamata and raised in my early years in Hamilton. I joined the ATC prior to my joining the Air Force and was there for eighteen months. And I was on an intake into the Air Force and streamed to be aircrew via basic training and selection in Rotorua in the final stages and travelled overseas as a prospective navigator. We — can we just stop it there? Can I just —
[recording paused]
DK: We travelled to San Diego in the US Mooltan which was a second [unclear] American ship. Landed at San Diego. Trained to Vancouver, across to Hamilton Ontario. And it was two weeks before our course was due to start, and we as a group went to New York and explored the place there. Our course was in Winnipeg. It was, we arrived there just on Christmas. We had Christmas in, a Canadian Christmas at the station. And our training took six months, and of course took us into the winter months and we were flying in temperatures of something like forty below which was pretty hazardous in terms of fingers sticking to implements and one had to be pretty careful with, about one’s ears and noses too in that sort of temperature. Can I get —
GT: Yeah.
[recording paused]
DK: The course was somewhat uneventful but we learned a lot of course and we graduated with our wings there. The only piece of excitement you might say was the fact that in the Anson we had to wind up the undercarriage which was a terrible job in the cold and on one particular occasion we lost a propeller. It appears that it had an oil failure. An engine seized and flicked off the propeller. We were not too far from an adjoining airstrip and landed quite safely so that was the only real aspect worth mentioning. After graduation we trained to Montreal, and after that to Halifax and then across the Atlantic in one of the Empress liners. I think then [pause] at the landing we were transferred to West Freugh up near the Scottish border and once more we trained in Ansons. And from there we went to OTU which is Operational Training Unit on, at Oakley on Wellingtons. We did a long time on Wellingtons preparing for our role as aircrew and from time to [pause] stop.
[recording paused]
DK: Yes. While at the OTU flying Wellingtons, and we’d crewed up to some extent at that stage and we settled down as a crew and we did a lot of the training, cross countries and all that that was required as well as trips over the North Sea as diversionary flights to fool the Germans in terms of bomber raids that were happening in the south. From OTU we went to Conversion Unit on to Lancasters, and one of our, something that sticks in my mind is the fact that the first flight in a Lancaster was under an instructor and we flew up to something like twenty thousand feet and the pilot feathered one engine, two engines, three engines and we maintained height at twenty thousand feet on one engine on a Lancaster which gave us a lot of [pause] you know. Stop it again.
[recording paused]
DK: So that was the introduction to the Lancaster which gave us a lot of confidence. We finally crewed up with our number of seven people in the crew and started some training and preparing to go over to be posted to a squadron which happened to be number 75 New Zealand Squadron. In the time that I was there and that was towards the end of the war we were probably the last replacement intake that happened prior to the finish of the war. Which meant that our crew flew actually three operations of which I went on two. The first one was to Kiel when our commanding officer Wing Commander Cyril Baigent skippered the plane. And that was quite shattering to think that a budding navigator was responsible to the [laughs] to the flight commander. Now, then, then there was another one. The next one was to Potsdam which was a long trip and that took something like eight hours and twenty minutes. So it was the first introduction to flak and real, you know flak and the prospect of night fighters. However that was a successful. The crew, I understand, I know did one more trip to bomb a railyard but at that time I was down with mumps and in isolation in Ely Hospital. So that’s why I missed out on that one. And of course the war ended at that time and they rescheduled everyone in terms of volunteers to make up the Tiger Force and we did a lot of training there in preparation to flying apparently to Okinawa to support the American invasion of Japan. But of course they had something up their sleeve and they didn’t.
GT: That part of the war. So, Dave, I’m just looking at your logbook now. So I’ll just briefly give some idea to your, your entries which gives you the history of your training. So when you first arrived in England it was the 6th of July ’44 and you went on to 4 AFU in West Freugh in Scotland and you were there for pretty much for the month of July. You moved to 11 OTU at Westcott on the August ’44 and a mixture between Westcott and Oakley and that was pretty much from October ’44 right through to the, well January ’45. And, and then you moved to number 1651 Conversion Unit at Woolfox Lodge and that was from the beginning of March and completed that pretty much by the 21st of March as your conversion from Wellingtons to Lancasters. And your arrival on 75 New Zealand Squadron was the 30th of March ’45. And your completion of flying on 75 New Zealand Squadron was on the 17th of May. So, from there, after your total flying hours with 75 Squadron was eleven hours. Your total flying hours at the time, day a hundred and sixty eight. Total night one hundred and fifty one. And then you moved to Bardney at Waddington for 9 Squadron. June 18th you spent flying until the 18th of September which was pretty much your last Lancaster flight. So on 9 Squadron then can you remember anything of the things that you did and your skipper particularly?
DK: Yes. Our skipper was a married gentleman called [unclear] A well-seasoned pilot and you know, a great chap. Apart from training for the Far East we went out to Pomigliano on two occasions to pick up POWs and brought them back. I think number twenty four. The number was twenty four that packed into, into the plane. Apart from that we, I was transferred to Brighton awaiting repatriation back home. Arriving right on Christmas of ’46.
GT: So what ship did they take you back from England? Bring you back.
DK: Yeah.
GT: The Andes?
DK: No [pause] [laughs] No.
[recording paused]
DK: Yes. The ship that brought us home was the SS Mooltan. The one that we caught out of New Zealand to go to San Diego was the US —
GT: The Uruguay, was it?
DK: Uruguay.
GT: Yeah.
DK: That’s the one. Yeah.
GT: So when, when you joined the RNZAF was navigator your aim or was that just the one that they slotted you in and you accepted? Did the [unclear] for you.
DK: I didn’t want to be a pilot. That’s number one. And I was an engineering prospective student so I thought navigation was the one to do. Yeah.
GT: And that, that was easy for you? The navigation. You found it good to work for.
DK: Yes. And I had, my life had been study really up to that point in time, so there was no real effort to knuckle down and do the work necessary to qualify as a navigator.
GT: What was your background before the war that made if good for you to do the navigation?
DK: Well, I was only out of school actually.
GT: Ok.
DK: But I was, joined the Post Office as an engineering cadet and I was, worked for just a year before I was in the, when I joined the Air Force.
GT: And that was a total volunteer thing right? You weren’t called up.
DK: No. Not at eighteen. No.
GT: No.
DK: No.
GT: So the navigation role then how did it work for the crew? They, they all relied on you totally to make sure they got there and back. Did they have — [unclear]
DK: Yes. Well, there’s a back-up in terms of the wireless operator. He could get fixes. He could ask for assistance. And I don’t recall having to use that and I think the bomb aimer was somewhat conversant with the art of navigation. So there were back-ups. The only thing I felt was there were no one to back up the skipper.
GT: Flight engineer.
DK: Yeah. No. Well, they came later.
GT: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
GT: True. So, so when you did the, your daylight trips the difference between night and day did you guys notice a succinct difference? Was it, did you have to change your tactics?
DK: You mean operations? I didn’t fly any daylight trips so I can’t answer that one.
GT: Ok. Now, the aircraft you were flying in. Lancaster. A beautiful aircraft, it was. Other crews liked them. What was it?
DK: Well, yeah. People had faith in the aircraft but, well in retrospect when you think about it there was damn all chance of getting out of the thing in trouble because of the big spar across the centre of the fuselage. Gives you the willies to think that perhaps a lot of people, you know met they’re doom by the fact that they were restrained so much by the structure of the aircraft.
GT: High G forces [unclear]
DK: Yeah.
GT: But were there was any aircraft lost when you were on the squadron? It was right at the end of the war.
DK: Yes. Well, there was evidence of something lost by the time that we arrived there and I just don't recall any particular one on the time that I was there.
GT: You weren’t there that long at Mepal. But in this case did you enjoy any of the pubs? Do you remember any of the —
DK: I think we went out as a crew. Yes. There’s one thing you really didn’t, didn’t make a lot of friends as aircrew on the Air Force because you were confined to your crew mainly and you went as a crew and your, you became friendly with them. But different from being in the Army where you were living with people all the time, and you make up, you settled down in hierarchy and you feel comfortable within your group. Whereas this, you just participated as a group of seven and you lived as a group of seven, slept as a group of seven and that was about it.
GT: You mentioned your first operation was with Cyril Baigent.
DK: Yeah.
GT: Who was the wing commander of 75 New Zealand Squadron. A very young wing commander at that time.
DK: Yes.
GT: Very well respected. And you had that feeling when you were flying with him. He was, he was, respected. He was deserving of that respect.
DK: Absolutely. More so by the fact that he’d achieved that at a very young age. So there must have been something that he had going for him.
GT: Of note that Wing Commander Cyril Baigent returned to New Zealand post war. Took a reduction in rank but he became the commanding officer of the new 75 RNZAF Squadron flying Mosquitoes but sadly died of cancer in 1949.
DK: Yes.
GT: And he’s buried in the cemetery not far from where we are now here in Nelson and several years ago I found his collective grave with his brother. And he, I think also was awarded the Military Cross. So a very prestigious military family is the Baigents here in Nelson, New Zealand. Very good. So then when you moved to 9 Squadron did, what was the kind of work you were doing to work up to go to, well in this case Okinawa? This was where you were heading.
DK: Yes.
GT: So what kind of work were you doing for that?
DK: I think we were concentrating on long range navigation over the Pacific which is different from Europe of course. Was it LORAN that they had there? I just don’t recall in detail but we were doing a lot of cross country and we were in a holding situation because we were a trained crew and we could have been uplifted at any time. And we had different aircraft too. I think we were painted white underneath and black on top. I don’t recall. But some quite different.
GT: What was your main navigation tool on these aircraft? Did they change between 75 and the ones you went to 9 Squadron with or the same?
DK: Pretty much the same. We had H2S and Gee. Well, that’s mainly for navigating around where we were training. They’d have to, they had a different system there covering the Pacific. Yeah.
GT: Now, 75 New Zealand Squadron were heading, went to Spilsby for Tiger Force training and eventually you started to crew up with Lincolns and, and by VJ Day they had received three. Had 9 Squadron been moving towards Lincolns as well or were they just going to go out with Lancasters?
DK: I think it was Lancasters. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. I’d also heard from another veteran some years ago that they were doing engine trials for, for flying in the heat which obviously was something that Lancaster hadn’t done much of in Europe.
DK: No. No.
GT: So, was there any thought of the aircraft overheating? And did they do any training towards that?
DK: No. It didn’t filter down through the ranks.
GT: They were just going to get them there.
DK: Yeah.
GT: And hope for the best.
DK: Yeah.
GT: Hopefully, the Merlins coped. Fascinating. So, so alright, you came back to New Zealand after the war and you settled into a new role. What did you, what did you end up doing then?
DK: Well, I went back to the Post Office and with the intention of carrying on my engineering career. I wasn’t accepted back because in [pause]
[recording paused]
DK: Yes. When I got back I applied to continue my engineering study with a bursary from the Post Office, but at the time there was a lot of prospective engineers halfway through their courses when they were either called up or volunteered and the quota was over, over full. So being the youngest virtually and the last one to, the last one to [pause] being the last one to go and join the Air Force I stayed as a technician and I was, included in the work was night shift. And I’d started a family at that stage and I’d built a house and settled down to civilian life and I wasn’t going to do any night shifts at all. So I either was going to quit the job or get my qualification via the Institute of Electrical Engineers extramurally which after four years of study without, without a lot of assistance I achieved that and became a registered engineer. And I graduated through the hierarchy of the Post Office engineering to be an engineer, a senior engineer, a supervising engineer and a district engineer of Nelson. And I retired at age fifty seven after forty years of service.
[recording paused]
DK: Yes. To qualify as an engineer the way I did you had to pass, and be accepted by the Institute of Electrical Engineers based in London. And people who had engineering degrees could not get a practicing certificate or become a chartered engineer unless they passed a section B of the Institute’s recommendation. And then at the time that I graduated the nuclear engineering business was starting to appear and requiring engineers and rather than be under the auspices of the Institute of Electrical Engineers they decided that they would start their own institution and they advertised to recent graduates to be foundation members of the Institute of Atomic Engineering. And so I accepted that because there could be a likelihood that I may end up in the UK and I’d be qualified to accept a responsibility in that particular field. Although New Zealand was nuclear free and all that sort of thing and there’s nothing here of a practical work in that calling I was abreast of the situation through technical papers that I had access to at all times and I became a fellow of the Institute of Nuclear Engineers as time went by.
GT: Ok, Dave. That’s fascinating stuff. Dave, what about family? Yourself and with your lovely wife Margaret, you had how many children and how many great grandchildren?
DK: Well, we had three children. Two boys and a girl. They were all, have been self-employed. Two of them are pensioners now. They’re over sixty five and they’re doing better than I ever did. Each one of them. So there’s no worries there. There’s seven grandchildren and there’s, I think there’s going to be any time, any minute there’s going to be number thirteen of great grandchildren. So, they’re spread all over the world. There’s some in England, some in Sydney, some in, in Brisbane and certainly in Auckland. So, but they seem to like Nelson as a place to come and they certainly come and we enjoy them while they’re here. Unfortunately, I lost my wife eighteen months ago after sixty eight years which was a blow certainly, but I live alone in a four bedroom house. I can manage it. I’m capable of doing that and I intend to stay here until the end rather than go into care if I can possibly arrange it. So, and I’m socially active in terms of belonging to a [unclear] Club which gives any amount of social connection and that’s the saviour of, you know the, of our later retirement years I would say. Certainly after the death of Margaret. Yeah.
GT: Dave, in Nelson here there’s now six, six of you left, and amazingly three of you are ex-75 New Zealand Squadron Lancaster crew. And that, that number has diminished now which means that your local Bomber Command Association of Nelson’s get togethers every so often you’ve now had to kind of curtail that and disband so to speak. So, so it is fabulous to be able to come and enjoy your company. You and I have known each other now for ten years and its fabulous that you’re also very welcoming of my visits to you. So I thank you very much for allowing me to interview you for the IBCC Archives here. And you are accepting of your details being added to a very rich museum and archive status that they’re doing at Lincolnshire. So David lets sign off now. Thank you very much for your story, your life and thank you for your sacrifice and your service, sir.
DK: Well, thank you for the interview.
GT: Thank you.
DK: Yes.
GT: Good night.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dave Knight
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Glen Turner
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AKnightD180117
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:26:45 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
New Zealand
England--Cambridgeshire
New Zealand--Nelson
Description
An account of the resource
David Knight was a member of the ATC before volunteering for the Royal New Zealand Air Force and began training as a navigator. He travelled to Canada as part of his training before arriving in the UK and being posted to 75 Squadron at RAF Mepal. When they flew at twenty thousand feet in a Lancaster on one engine the crew gained a great confidence in the aircraft that would take them on operations. Dave was nervous when his first operational flight was with Wing Commander Cyril Baigent, the Commanding Officer of 75 Squadron. He was posted on to 9 Squadron for training in preparation for being engaged as Tiger Force. He returned to New Zealand after the war to continue his engineering training.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1945
11 OTU
1651 HCU
75 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lincoln
navigator
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Mepal
Tiger force
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/302/11158/PLambAM1509.2.jpg
31ffd0ebb2c172a89ffe42acd1b2e422
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/302/11158/ALambA170912.1.mp3
4eceb1fe534b4e8d1104247955ad9646
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lamb, Alexander
Alexander McPherson Lamb
Alexander M Lamb
Alexander Lamb
A M Lamb
A Lamb
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Alexander McPherson Lamb (b. 1925, 1827673 Royal Air Force), his decorations, album and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 15 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alexander Lamb and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-25
2017-08-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lamb
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AL: Start when you want of course.
JS: Yeah.
[pause]
AL: That’s quite incredible. The modern. I’m not, I was never dragged into the twenty first century unfortunately.
JS: Ok. Right. So, if I can just start. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jim Sheach. The interviewee is Alistair Lamb. The interview is taking place at Alistair’s home [buzz] on the 12th of September 2017. Alistair, thanks for agreeing to be interviewed. Can you tell me a little about your life before the war?
AL: Well, I was born in the house I live in just now. I went to the local school. I left the school at fourteen as we all did in those days. I became a boy messenger in the War Department. The war of course was on and it was a case of just delivering correspondence around the various army units or army offices in the area. I was always interested in aircraft. My father died in ’41. My mother and I were still here at that time. As I say I was born in this house. Then I got a clerical position in the Civil Service. In the War Department. And then I decided I would have to do something. I didn’t want the army although my father was a regular army man. I went and volunteered for air crew. At least I went for an aircrew interview anyway and I was accepted which with all the usual rigmarole in Edinburgh up at, where was it now? I forget now. In Edinburgh where you had your RAF medical and all the rest of it and, ‘We’ll send for you.’ And shortly after that I was sent for and that’s where I joined the RAF. That would be when, I’m not, I’m not sure of the date, sort of thing. I think it would be sometime 1944 I think it would be I joined up. I can ascertain the details. And from then on it was a case of progression. I just went down there. I volunteered for aircrew. As you know you had to be a volunteer to be aircrew anyway. I didn’t think I was clever enough to be a pilot so I volunteered to be an air gunner. And that’s what I started off and finished up as an air gunner.
JS: Why did you, what, what took you to, to volunteering to be aircrew rather than something else?
AL: Well, I was mad keen on aeroplanes. Always had been. I used to build model aircraft as a young lad. And I didn’t want the army for some strange reason. I wanted to fly. So that’s why I volunteered for aircrew.
JS: So which, which squadron were you in?
AL: 15. It was a peacetime squadron. It had been a pre-war peacetime squadron. When I first started off I went to London to Aircrew Reception Centre at St John’s Cricket Ground. St John’s Wood. We stayed in St John’s Cricket Ground. Never been fussed in my life but some of the lads were so elated to be able to get into Lord’s. We were there about a fortnight to three weeks. We went from there to RAF Bridgnorth to do initial RAF training. Bridgnorth. Did our basic ground training at RAF station at Bridgnorth. If you passed the various tests then what you had you were then selected. You were then said, ‘Right. You’ll be aircrew and as an air gunner.’ Came home on leave and went back to RAF Stormy Down in Wales where I did my initial gunnery training. Stormy Down in Wales. I think I was four weeks, five. Three weeks. I can’t remember. You’ll see in my logbook. We left there and went to, we got our wings there. Our half wing there and our tapes. I came home on leave and I was posted then to 14 OTU Market Harborough for flying Wellingtons and to crew up. I don’t know if, do you know about the crewing position do you? There was no compunction of who you flew with. A very strange thing. The first time, when you went to what was called an Operational Training Unit you were all mixtures maxtures and you were given a fortnight to get together and at the end of the fortnight you did some ground training. Basic ground training. You were air crew by this time. You did some basic ground training and at the end of a fortnight you were sent in to a huge hangar. You were asked to crew up. You’d met most of the people that you crewed up with. Of course, all the usual rigmarole try and get a warrant officer pilot because he’s got a lot of flying hours and this sort of thing, you know. All these stories they were going about. Anyway, it doesn’t really matter. The first chap I met at OTU was a chap from Edinburgh. Jock Bathgate, who was a gunner. So we crewed up straight away Jock and I. He was more, he went about with the wireless op. And that was the three of us went together. I didn’t do much in those days with them. They crewed up then and we went into a huge hangar at the end and the chief flying instructor stood up and said, ‘Are you all crewed up?’ We were all crewed up. ‘Right. That’s how you’ll start your training.’ We, and we were unfortunate in as much as that we had two navigators, one after the other who failed and didn’t pass out. They didn’t, they’d actually became navigators but that was as far as they went. They failed their OTU. They just couldn’t cope. I don’t remember all the story. And we kept piling hours up in Wellingtons and thought we’ll end up in the Far East if this goes on [laughs] And we then eventually had a skipper who was a warrant officer as I said and he was posted away so we were left without a pilot. So we were left without. And at that time this chap arrived. A sergeant from the French Air Force, Jack Darlow who had been, that’s another story but it doesn’t matter. He had been in the French Air Force and the usual way the wheels work what’s this chap with an English name doing in the French Air Force? He was re-mustered and we got him as a pilot and that’s how we more or less settled down after that. We lost two navigators while Jack was there. Just couldn’t cope. And then we crewed up and flew as a crew and flew in Wellingtons at OTU, 14 OTU Market Harborough. We passed out from there and then various leaves and what not we then went to [pause] where was it? 16, I can’t. 15? Heavy Conversion Unit anyway. And we were one of the few crews that were on Stirlings at the Conversion Unit. We went on to Stirlings in the Conversion Unit. We’d had, I think twenty one hours or something. I can’t remember. You need to ascertain from my logbook, on Stirlings which I liked very much actually. We went from there on to Lancs. I can’t remember the, you’ll get it in my logbook there. Then we crewed up and went on Lancs and that’s where we did our training on Lancs. We finished off there. We were at Wigsley. We had one or two scares at Wigsley. We were, intruders were coming across by that time. We were never affected much. They strafed the ‘drome once or twice at night. We then went from there. We were posted to 15 Squadron at Mildenhall in Suffolk. I think we went there, in March ’45 I think we’d be by that time. March ’45. And that’s where I finished up from Mildenhall in Suffolk and I stayed at Mildenhall and stayed with 15 Squadron. After a while we moved to Wyton and I still stayed with them. And I finished up, in ’47 it would be. Still had been at 15 Squadron all the time. The crews all broke up of course as you understand. The war finished and crews were getting broken up and sent over and things changed in the Air Force quite a bit then.
JS: So did you have a choice to stay on longer if crews were getting broken up and demobbed or —
AL: Some people were. I could if I’d wanted. I was an air gunnery instructor by this time. I could have stayed on. But I had a job in the Civil Service to come back to. My mother was herself at home and I thought well in four years time there’ll not be any air gunners and unless I could stay on flying I wasn’t going to stay in the air force. And I decided then when my demob group came to come out. A big drawback. A big drawback, you know. A big difference.
JS: Yeah. How did you get on with your crew?
AL: Very much indeed. They were a great crew. Very. I kept up with most of them for years after the war. The navi, I was the best man at the navigator’s wedding. I used to go to Edinburgh to visit the mid-upper. My skipper’s been across here with his family. We’re Just away this year to see most of his family. I’ve been out to Australia to meet him. The bomb aimer I never kept up with very much. Although we were in the same crew and that. The wireless operator, we kept very much with him. The rest of the crew more or less we went about together. Just, you either, you lose, you do lose contact. You did you know. I didn’t care much for them the wireless operator so I didn’t. He, he was brought into the crew by the other gunner actually, you know, ‘We’ll fly with you,’ sort of style. If there’s a lot of that doesn’t interest you just edit it out or take it out.
JS: No. Fine. Is there, is there a memorable operation you could talk about?
AL: Oh. I’m no hero. I think 15 Squadron did the last, Bomber Command did the last thousand bomber raid. We didn’t know at the time but there was, I’ve got it in my book, nine hundred aircraft I think was involved. That was the last thousand bomber raid, I think of the war. Most memorable would be supply dropping to the Dutch. We did three trips supply dropping to the Dutch. That’s one of the pictures up there. I think that’s about all really. The usual sort of run of the mill operational sorties. Nothing I could remember that was anything different from anything else, you know.
JS: So, so what happened on the, the Dutch supply one?
AL: Well, I don’t know if the history is known very well but evidently the Germans became very nasty and said, right, we’re going to do this and they cut off all the food supplies. The Dutch were actually starving. This would be in April. April. The end of April ’45. And the RAF said, ‘Well, we’ll supply you.’ The Americans did I think. They called it Chowhound or something. We called it Operation Manna. Food from heaven. And we did three trips dropping food supplies to the Dutch and the Germans were told that we were coming anyway and be it on their head if anything happened. We were never fired upon. I don’t know. Some crews said they were fired upon but we were certainly never fired upon. We were down to fifty feet most of the time dropping the supplies. I can tell you from my logbook. I think we did three. We did Valkyrie. I can’t remember the names. There were three pre stations we went to drop food supplies to the Dutch. After that we brought liberated prisoners of war back. Flew them home too. And then the war ended and 15, being a peacetime squadron we weren’t broken up. We stayed as a squadron. The crews all changed of course. If I’m boring you to tears stop me please. Then we said, oh we did the drop trials after the war. We got 617 aircraft with the twenty two thousand pounders. We did drop the trials with them. And then we had 617 aircraft up until I was demobbed. That’s no front turret, no top turret and the bomb bays all cut away. You’ll see pictures in my book over there. Then the crews broke up. Demob came along. You all had a demob group as you know. They asked people to stay on. I think I stayed on a little longer because I was gunnery leader by that time although I wasn’t commissioned. I was a warrant officer on the squadron. And then we flew with anybody more or less after that. A lot of pay, officers wanted to stay back on and they came back in again and the crews all mixed up and it was a different, a different attitude toward life at all altogether you know. You never knew. You didn’t really fly. I flew with Squadron Leader Baker double DSO double DFC. He had been a CO of, I forget the [unclear] of a squadron down south and he stayed on. Tubby Baker. I got on well with Tubby. He was a great guy. With different navigators. With different people in the crew. We’d only one gunner of course. We only had one tail one. We only had the tail turret at that time. And that was more or less just we did a lot of local flying. A lot of flying after the war. Did a lot of local flying. We did drop trials. We did all the drop trials on the U-boat pens. Shipping strikes after the war to find out what damage the bombs and things were doing. So it was all just a matter of just we were flying mostly every day.
JS: So, that was, that was live dropping you were doing on —
AL: Yeah.
JS: On old U-boat pens.
AL: That’s correct. We were dropping dummy four thousand pounders and I can’t remember, I can’t remember, I don’t know I think we dropped — I can’t remember, not twenty two thousand, but they were filled with sand to see what damage they would do. I can try to remember. They did, we did all the drop trials off ships. There was a ship moored in Portsmouth area and we bombed the ship with five hundred pounders and thousand pounders filled with sand. The idea being that they didn’t know at that particular time if an aircraft flying at fifteen thousand feet dropping a hundred pound, or a thousand pound bomb going into a ship what damage it would do. So we dropped these bombs until we actually hit the ship and then we went then, the Navy went aboard and put the equivalent amount of charge where that bomb had landed. Someone should have put where it landed and exploded it from there so they could tell an aircraft flying at fifteen thousand feet dropping a thousand pound bomb on a ship would do X amount of damage. I mean they knew this but this was all actual practice for them, you know, thing for them. So we did quite a bit of that. Dropping, [pause] U-boat pens we were dropping the ten thousand pounders and twelve thousand pounders on the U-boat pens but they weren’t filled. They were filled with sand. They, to see what penetration they would do. And that’s about, really all I can remember of that.
JS: So instead of dropping real bombs you actually dropped something the equivalent weight.
AL: That’s right.
JS: And then you put the charge where they ended up.
AL: Yeah. In the ship.
JS: So it was in effect the same thing.
AL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: But rather than —
AL: Basically, I can’t remember the full details. As you can imagine it was a long time ago. I think that was basically the idea. We never actually got, we never got the result of what happened. You know what I mean? You’re taxing my memory now.
JS: No. No. You’re doing, no you’re doing really good. You’re doing really good. Don’t worry about that.
AL: I don’t want to line shoot or anything. It’s very difficult because you can’t line shoot people that are in the forces. They know right away what you’re on about. No. No. No. No.
JS: So —
AL: I was fortunate I did a lot of that. As I said to you I was very fortunate to be able to do all that.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. So having flown Wellingtons, Stirlings.
AL: Stirlings.
JS: And Lancasters.
AL: And Lincolns.
JS: And Lincolns.
AL: For our crimes [laughs] they were a heap of junk.
JS: What were the, what were the plusses and minuses between them all?
AL: Oh, I think without a doubt the Lanc was the best aeroplane. There’s no doubt about that. But I liked a Stirling. I used to claim extra flying time because [laughs] [unclear] kids because we were airborne before everybody else. The only thing that brought it home to ourself is, it’s an aside, I don’t know if it’s worthwhile recording this but anyway. You’re up, by the time I started flying on ops there were so many aircraft that you more or less had your own aeroplane. So I mean you flew in the one aeroplane, your own aeroplane most of the time. Other people used it but you always, nearly always flew your own aircraft. And ours was Z-Zebra. You were always told there would be ops on. Not where you were going. You were told you were flying tomorrow. That was it. You was told that. And when we went out to detail I said to skipper, ‘Why are we not in our own aeroplane?’ I said, ‘I’ve been out here with the nav, with the wireless op, with the other gunner cleaning the Perspex.’ We used to, we used to clean our own Perspex. You did it where you went. You know. Anyway, we got to know the ground crew very well. I said, ‘Why are we not in our own aircraft? We should be in Zebra.’ Which was our aircraft. ‘Oh, that’s alright. Don’t worry. I’ll, I’ll tell the ground. I’ll tell them. I will.’ When we went out it was a new crew was flying in Willie. And we said, ‘No. No. We’ll go,’ so when the WAAF dropped us, we were, we were in buses to the aircraft. He said, ‘We’ll just walk across the road,’ he said, ‘And you go to Willie.’ So we went in our own aeroplane. And in those days you flew in tight formations when you got airborne. So the take-offs were fairly tight together so you could keep the flying times the same and you all formated up. You couldn’t taxi Mildenhall on the grass with a bomb load because it was boggy ground. You had to stay on the peri track. So we were in our own aircraft — Z -Zebra, and we took off more or less three together down the runway. And as we took down the runway you used to put the turret on the beam. The story was so it was in case the guns would fire. That was the story. Anyway, put the turret on the beam and as we got airborne it was all very quick and there was not much talking down and we were so busy up front you didn’t talk very much unless [unclear]. I saw Willie feather an engine. And as we climbed away of course we lost track of what was happening we found away, but there was Mosquitoes, I think, I may be wrong. I can’t remember. I think they was, they were dropping four thousand pounder markers. I can’t remember. I maybe thought, maybe I’ve got confused. Anyway, as we pulled away there was this ginormous explosion and as we got airborne, as we were forming up there was an aircraft, and Willie was missing from our three. Thought no more about it. Just that was something had happened. That must be due to the fact, it doesn’t matter anyway. And what we discovered when we came back of course we were logged to fly in Willie. The ground crew were, ‘Christ, Willie’s been shot down. Willie had blown up on take-off. I don’t know the whole story. There was rumours and rumours and rumours. But as far as I can remember they lost an engine on take-off on Willie. Now, with three engines and a full bomb load and fuel you could get airborne. You could get airborne. There’s no doubt about that if you had enough power to get airborne. But I think somebody said they feathered another engine. I don’t know. I can’t honestly remember the details at the time but they went in, in near Barton Wood I think they went in. But there was a village quite near. They blew up. The aircraft blew up and they were all killed. That’s the only sort of thing that brings it home to you. You remember it could have happened to you. It might not have happened to us, I don’t know. But at that, that, that’s what, that’s the only sort of real thing I really you know. Didn’t talk much about it at the time.
JS: Yeah.
AL: I must admit. It’s not really great but you were just asking me so I’m telling you. It’s not worth recording things like that, you know.
JS: I’ve heard stories about difficulties with the Perspex and the turrets and being able to see through it and whatever and stories about the people took the Perspex out of the turrets as well.
AL: We had moved the turret. We had the Perspex taken out of the tail turret. We had the Perspex taken out of the tail turret. At the back. At the front. The whole panel. That all came out. It wasn’t much difference to the coldness anyway. We still had the side Perspex in. Somewhere else you see that a dot on the Perspex could be an aeroplane. You didn’t know so you had to try and keep the thing down you know. That’s why you’d get the, the Perspex cleaning kit. You were usually were out cleaning. It definitely, it varied. That wasn’t part of your duties but if you weren’t flying you went out and did that, you know. If you weren’t flying you see you went back to the crew’s centre and just wait to see what was happening next. It’s difficult to really try and remember clearly. You know.
JS: No, that’s, no. That’s fine.
AL: It’s a long long time ago you’ve got to say.
JS: That’s fine. You mentioned that you, that you got on well with the ground crew.
AL: Aye. Aye.
JS: So was that the same ground, you said if it was your crew and it was your aeroplane.
AL: Aye.
JS: Was that in effect the same ground crew that you saw.
AL: Yeah. Well, of course there might be two people or three people share an aircraft. I don’t remember that. But I know we knew the ground crew quite well. Aye. Aye. Aye. With some, most of, most of the ground crew were flight sergeants and sergeants were peacetime regulars. Not them all but a lot of them were. We, our flight sergeant was a, had been a peacetime regular anyway, you know. And I don’t know what he was but that’s what he was. And we knew the ground crew quite well. Chatted away to them. We knew them. They were very good.
[pause]
JS: So when it came up to, you said you stayed on after hostilities ended.
AL: Aye.
JS: So do you want to tell me a wee bit about what brought you to leaving the RAF then and just what you, what you did after the war?
AL: Well, I left the RAF because I had a job to come home to in the Civil Service. Although I wasn’t established by that time. And also the fact that my mother was herself at home. There seemed to be, there was talk about decanting at that time. I think they were trying to, people had a big house, asked you to go in to a smaller. I can’t remember. This was a sort of thing in the back of my mind. Is that still being recorded? No. No. This was still in the back of my mind. Anyway, I decided to come out. A big drop in wages. A big drop completely. I was a warrant officer by that time. I was on, what was I on? Twelve and six a day, I think. All the different wages you see. Pilots, navigators and bomb aimers as warrant officers they would be on twenty one bob a day. Gunners were poorly paid. We were on, I would be on twelve. I was on twelve and six a day at that time. Anyway, came out and went back to Civil Service. The War Department. And you were told more or less you’ll have to sit the Civil Service exam if you want to stay in the Civil Service. And I wasn’t very bright at school. I mean I was an average person. I wasn’t an academic and I had to sit the Civil Service exam at Stirling Castle [laughs] A whole crowd of us went there. And a lot of [unclear] out. It was the time of all the trouble out in India too. You know about that was ’46 ’47 when India were all breaking up. One of the questions was, “Write all you know about India.” The Indian conflict. And I said to this guy, coming to the car I said, ‘How did you get on?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘All I know about India was Bengal matches and Bengal tigers.’ Well, you see, I mean [laughs] that was all. Anyway, believe it or not I passed the Civil Service exam. And at that time it was a general exam. You weren’t sitting for any particular thing. And I was posted to Social Security. What was it called in those days? Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance I think it was called and being, and being in that as a, when I came out of the Air Force as a non-established civil servant. I was, it was the War Department. When I went in I joined in the War Department. When I went in, ‘You’d better transfer over because the War Department is shutting down.’ I went into what they called the Department of Pensions and National Insurance. And I was there as a junior, as a clerk by at that time and when I passed the Civil Service exam I went back in to that but they were posting people all over and in those days they weren’t very kind to you. You’re posted to so and so. If you don’t want to go you’ll just have to pack it in. So I was posted to Elgin. My mother was at home herself and I thought well this is not much good at all. How can I manage to keep a house going? One thing. Anyway, to cut a long story short I went to Elgin and that was my first established post in the Civil Service was Elgin. And, and then I was able to get a compassionate posting or a transfer posting nearer to home. And the nearest I could get was Alloa and I went to Alloa. And I was in Alloa for ten years. And then a promotion. I was fortunate enough to get Stirling. I came back to Stirling and sat, went on interview boards of course by that time and I was lucky enough to get to stay in Stirling and promotion came along in Stirling. One chap I knew he went to [pause ] I forget where he went to. Grangemouth. I can’t remember. And I was lucky enough to have his post as an EO in Stirling. And I stayed in Stirling until, until I came out which was quite fortunate.
JS: That’s good. That’s good. You, when you, after the war how, how had you felt as a Bomber Command veteran you were treated? What was the feeling towards Bomber Command when you came out at the end of the war?
AL: I think it was alright. I think they were quite pleased to know you’d been an air gunner and all the rest of it. And of course there was the usual sorry about air gunners lasted two days at the time. That was a great rumour, you know. I think everyone was quite ok, I think. Aye. I don’t, I don’t think there was no, no. Everybody was sort of talking at that time about being in the forces and I’d been in the forces. You met everybody — Army, Navy, Air Force you know and you mingled with your work colleagues, two or three work colleagues what had been in the forces with me as well you see. So no. I think you settled in not too bad. It took a while to settle in, you see. You got a little money. I couldn’t afford a car, or a bike or anything. A push bike was about as much as you could afford. You know. It was good to be home of course. That was the point. My mother, being a widow of course you know. And a very — this shouldn’t be recording us. No. I hope not [laughs]
JS: Yeah. We’re still going.
AL: Oh, well.
JS: Shall I stop?
AL: Stop it. I’ll tell you some other things.
JS: That’s fine. Just, just hang on a second.
AL: To fill you in for your own background information.
JS: Let me just stop this.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Alexander Lamb. Two
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
James Sheach
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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ALambA170912, PLambAM1509
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:28:58 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Alexander Lamb left school in Edinburgh and became a messenger for the War Department. He then took a clerical post with the Department before reaching the age to volunteer for the RAF. He trained as an air gunner and was posted to RAF Mildenhall before moving with the squadron to RAF Wyton. Their aircraft was Z-Zebra and one day he heard that they were to fly in W-Willie. He protested and wanted to fly in their usual aircraft. They did fly in Z-Zebra and on that operation W-Willie crashed on take-off.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Suffolk
14 OTU
15 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
crash
crewing up
ground crew
Lancaster
Lincoln
military ethos
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wyton
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/177/11367/MBattyPH220759-161014-15.1.jpg
4a0f8f07534df25152bf8301d9d09ac4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Batty, Philip
Phil Batty
P Batty
Description
An account of the resource
19 Items. The collection consists of one oral history interview with Philip Batty (b. 1925). He discusses the death of his older brother Dennis early in the Second World War, his wartime service with 50 Squadron at RAF Sturgate as a wireless operator/ air gunner, and his long post war career. The collection also includes a number of group photographs of airmen after training, photographs of aircraft in southern Africa, his log book and propaganda material.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-14
Identifier
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Batty, P
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
A summary of Philip Batty's flying hours by aircraft type
Description
An account of the resource
Sixteen aircraft listed (Domine, Proctor, Anson, Wellington, Lancaster, Lincoln, B-29, Halifax, C-47, Neptune, Shackleton, Hastings, Varsity, Argosy, Victor, Vulcan) for a total of approximately 11,000 flying hours.
Format
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One typewritten note
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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MBattyPH270759-161014-15
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Anson
B-29
C-47
Dominie
Halifax
Lancaster
Lincoln
Proctor
Shackleton
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1027/11399/PMcVickersCG1701.2.jpg
e63e360b9d8c44c497cd07bf38ac604f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1027/11399/AMcVickersCG171006.1.mp3
e70c5002647526a9e94ca6d62c386bfe
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
McVickers, Christopher George
C G McVickers
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Christopher George McVickers (1922 - 2018, 1042135 Royal Air Force), his log book identity card and disks and his decorations. He completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 218 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Christopher McVickers and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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McVickers, CG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: Right. This is an interview for the International Bomber Command.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Digital Archive between Harry Bartlett, representing the Archive and Christopher George McVickers who was a member of 218 Gold Coast Squadron and served throughout the war in —
CM: Well —
HB: With 218.
CM: ’41.
HB: From 1941 through and served after the war through to 1965.
CM: ’67.
HB: Thank you. I was wrong.
CM: Well —
HB: I have.
CM: Don’t forget I wasn’t flying for the last eighteen months. I was just, I was a missile controller.
HB: Right. Right. So, Kit isn’t it?
CM: Kit.
HB: We call you Kit.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Right. Where you were born, Kit?
CM: Blackhill, County Durham.
HB: Right. And did you go to school at Blackhill?
CM: I’ve no recollection of ever going to school.
HB: No.
CM: I forgot about it. I went to school quite obviously.
HB: Obviously.
CM: Went to school at Benfieldside.
HB: Aye. And, and your first job was in —
CM: Errand boy.
HB: Yeah. In the —
CM: As you did in those days. This was, I’m talking 1935 ’36 you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Did up to fourteen.
HB: So you were an errand boy.
CM: I failed the eleven plus.
HB: Right.
CM: But it wasn’t — I had a broken arm during that period and also went to hospital with scarlet fever during that period.
HB: Right.
CM: When I came back to school because obviously the sickness thing. And the eleven plus was pending, I couldn’t do it at the time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because I couldn’t sit at the desk like that.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So I missed all the revision and everything else. So, they all said, you’d have no chance with that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I took, I took it privately. By myself.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Just with my arm out of the, just like that. So consequently I didn’t know how to pick my pen up or to write.
HB: Aye.
CM: So I made a mess of it and I failed it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So there was a lot of talk about it at the time. Jane knows all about this. And my father made such a fuss of this. ‘My son has never had a chance. He’s had no chance. No revision. Nothing at all.’ Sat down with his arm out of his sling and taking an important — so that’s, but at that time they did their very best.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But they couldn’t do anything about it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So you just —
CM: I was going to pass the eleven plus but I didn’t due to circumstances.
HB: Yeah. So you became an errand boy.
CM: Yeah. I was. I won’t say I was a very humble errand boy but I was the best errand boy in the locality.
HB: Yes. Absolutely. And you went to the steelworks I understand.
CM: Yes. My father, my father’s brother Kit who was the, as I said was general secretary of the Iron, Steel, British Iron, Steel and Kindred Trades Association. So he had so much power he could say to me, ‘It’s your sixteenth birthday coming up Kit lad.’ Kit lad. He said Kit lad. He said, ‘Just report to the timekeeper and say you’re Uncle Kit sent you,’ he said, ‘You’ll be set on.’ So I thought, My God, this is nepotism but in a fine sort of way but that’s how I got the steelworks.
HB: And that was at, that was in Consett.
CM: Within two years of course, those were ’36 ’37 then the war broke out and instead of being, doing, on the staff of the steelworks which I was they said, ‘Ok. We’re going to need all the best men we’ve got to man, man the furnaces,’ because a lot of the people on the furnaces had been, were Territorials and they’d been called up anyway. So semi promotion was not only I was going to be boy plus beyond boy to the eighteen year old man. Man’s, man’s business. So suddenly I got promotion beyond the dreams of avarice.
HB: Oh lovely.
CM: But the only fault of it was the timekeepers thought these were boys and they’d be boy labourers. Therefore, they must pay boy labourers wages. So about three months later Kit said to me, he said, ‘How are you spending all the extra money Kit lad?’ And all I was getting was, I said, ‘Well, I’m not getting any extra money.’ I’m getting boy’s labourers wages. He said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘Just stay here. Don’t move from that place for ten minutes.’ And off he went to see the, not the commanding officer —
HB: No.
CM: The general service manager. You know, the boss. Came back and said, ‘Don’t worry,’ he said, ‘You’ll get all the backpay you get at full men’s wages. Not only that it’s all the people who’ve been doing the same thing as you. They’ll get the same thing. Well, I was the most popular chap in the steelworks. By this time it was quite a lump sum between boy’s labourers wages and men’s labourers wages.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Anyway, I did pretty well because leaving school at fourteen didn’t make much difference. I had the intelligence then in the first place. Which I would, that’s why my father said I would have been a cert for the grammar school.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I had the grammar school brains without the grammar qualifications.
CM: That’s —
HB: So I did alright.
HB: So that was up to, that was sort of ’37 ’38.
CM: That’s right. Well —
HB: So, so, how, how did you come to join the RAF?
CM: It was 1941 before I joined the Air Force.
HB: Yeah.
CM: By that time I was nineteen.
HB: Yeah. And did you, did you volunteer Kit?
CM: Oh yeah. Yeah. They wouldn’t let you go unless you volunteered.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And you had to be, you had to volunteer for either submarines or aircrew or some other damned dangerous job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: They wouldn’t let you go otherwise. They wouldn’t let you go just to be an ordinary soldier.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: You know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You’re more important then to be manning the furnaces.
HB: Yeah. So, so it was so you basically you were in a Reserved Occupation.
CM: Oh, that’s right. Yes, I was. Yes.
HB: And then to —
CM: Like Kit. Like Kit himself.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: The boss. And the boss of the steelworks. They were all Reserved Occupation.
HB: Yeah. So you then went from Reserved Occupation and you volunteered for aircrew.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Right.
CM: But if it had been anything other than aircrew they would said no.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Back to where you were more useful.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Which I was by then. I was an experienced furnaceman. A fourth. There a fourth hand, third hand, second hand and first hand. You know, four men manned the furnaces. So you progressed from fourth hand to first hand but it took you about forty years to do it.
HB: Yeah. Oh yeah.
CM: The SiC turn system. [unclear] was in operation.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So —
CM: Organised by my Uncle Kit.
HB: Yeah. So you come and join the RAF. And you obviously had to go for your [pause] you obviously had to go for your training. Where did, where did you go for your training?
CM: First three months was Blackpool.
HB: That’s —
CM: General service training.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You know, square bashing.
HB: Was that at Padgate?
CM: No. That was at Blackpool.
HB: At Blackpool.
CM: Yeah. Blackpool.
HB: Right and —
CM: And from there to Yatesbury.
HB: You went to Yatesbury.
CM: Yeah. But, well say Yatesbury. In actual fact it was a branch of Compton Bassett which was the Ground Radio School. Yatesbury was the Air Radio School.
HB: Ah. Right.
CM: You went to the Ground Radio School because we weren’t going straight on to be at the air gunner’s course. There was a bit of backlog so we went in —
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: Graduated as wireless operators at this station. I was supposed to get to Anglesey but there wasn’t flying there.
HB: Oh right.
CM: But they had a small station that was there to get experience of this.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just general wireless operating which stood me in good stead because by the time we really got to the squadron, you know, I was an experienced wireless op.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Not only just getting practice but doing the real thing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But that made me a pretty good wireless operator to start with, with the experience I had.
HB: Oh right. So that —
CM: So —
HB: So you progressed through that training.
CM: That’s right.
HB: In ’41.
CM: That’s right. And then I was doing these stints at various units and then eventually I was called back. This time to Yatesbury to do what they called the refresher course. Six weeks.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Refreshers. Getting, you know the last time that we were nineteen year old nincompoops. They said — we’d better give them a bit more of a refresher.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That was good.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because I found that I learned more in the six week refresher course than I’d learned for the whole three months before. Getting it again. Because by that time —
HB: Yeah.
CM: I knew what I was all about.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I could take it in better. So, as I said I came and graduated as a W/op AG at [pause] we didn’t do any flying at the gunnery school. It was at a ground gunnery school only because at that time, 1943 the losses, the losses were so great they wanted people desperately at the squadrons. And that’s where I got a, I did a —
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was a w/op AG without doing the air gunnery course. But I still wore a gunner’s brevet because I’d been trained as a ground gunner. That’s, they just cut the courses short.
HB: Yeah.
CM: At that time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So, I graduated in June, 2nd of June 1943 as a w/op ag. Wireless operator/air gunner.
HB: Air gunner. Yeah. Right. So in [pause] you end up in 1943 in, at the OTU at Ossington.
CM: That’s right.
HB: That’s obviously where you start, start your proper flying and wireless operating.
CM: That’s right. With Sergeant Topham.
HB: Yeah.
CM: As my captain. But he couldn’t, when he went to the Lancaster finishing, the Stirling OTU. What did they call it? Heavy Conversion Unit.
HB: Yeah.
CM: When we eventually got there we realised that Johnny Topham, even though he was a wonderful man. He was an ex-police, police sergeant from Newcastle he picked me because I was an ex-errand boy from Consett.
HB: From Durham. County Durham. Yeah.
CM: But he couldn’t fly a — he couldn’t land a Stirling. Stirlings are very very difficult aircraft to land because they’re high up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I can show you a photograph of a Stirling, you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: A hell of a, if you fell out the cockpit of a Stirling you’d kill yourself.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It’s so high.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And he couldn’t land the Stirling. Very difficult to judge the distance.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because of this huge electrical undercarriage and everything.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Very difficult to gauge. Two or three feet as you circle, bang down with a hell of a — break the undercarriage. So you had to be really a skilful, have the feel to start with and Johnny couldn’t do it.
HB: Right.
CM: So he had to go by the board. He went to Lancaster Finishing School and got away with another crew and did a tour of operations.
HB: Right. So, so —
CM: Nevertheless, I went, we got Johnny, with Johnny Lloyd who was an ex-instructor.
HB: Ah right. So that’s, that’s the Lloyd that appears in the operational record.
CM: That’s right.
HB: With you. Oh right. So, it says in your logbook you just, perhaps you can explain it to me it says OTU satellite Bircotes.
CM: That’s right. In each of these OTUs they always had a spare. For diversions and things like that. And sometimes you’d be stationed at the satellite because it was more convenient. To take more, more aircraft in the air. More people going through. So Bircotes was a small grass field right almost just on the edge of Bircotes mining village.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: So but there was a lot of juggling about there with pilots like Johnny Topham I’ve just been telling you about and other people like that. John Lloyd, the other bloke too, he went LMF as well. So it was branded as a kind of a jerky sort of tour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You went to. You see it followed through the worst thing. I’d be a long time in the squadron with Johnny Lloyd and of course every time he took us he took us fly us he took us, he could fly a Stirling, every time he took us to it he could [unclear] with it. They thought was great. We thought was great actually to have a captain who could fling a Stirling around the sky as if he’d been born and bred to it. But of course the authorities didn’t like it. They wanted to be trained in the orthodox sort of way.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So my passes to these sort of things is varied, many and varied.
HB: Yeah. I don’t know if you can remember this, Kit as just an interesting little note in here. September the 4th 1943. You’re with Sergeant Topham as the pilot.
CM: That’s right. Johnny Topham.
HB: And you’re doing a, you’re in a Wellington.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And you’re doing a cross country test.
CM: Yes.
HB: Routine test. And it says in here that you couldn’t maintain your height.
CM: That’s right.
HB: So what happened?
CM: Crashed at, crashed at Catfoss. Doesn’t it, doesn’t it mention crashing at Catfoss?
HB: Yeah. Yeah. It does.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah. So, so what? You just hit the ground and slid.
CM: Well, we were coming in to land. The communication wasn’t very good. But he had got to the air traffic control that we were coming in to land because he had lost, lost an engine. He couldn’t maintain height. But when we approached the runway there was a Beaufort, a Beaufort. At Catfoss was Beauforts. It was a Coastal Command station.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And he’s on the end of runway. So what can we do? We had to get down because the aircraft wouldn’t make it. It wouldn’t have got off the other side.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Only one engine and that engine was derated.
HB: Ah.
CM: It was derated and therefore it was not, they couldn’t put us off anyway. In spite of the fact the engine was, and we’d lost one altogether they’re going to crash anyway. So at the very end of the runway Johnny was trying to get over the Beaufort that was standing at the end of the runway who obviously wasn’t aware what was coming in behind. Just at the last minute he just kind of boosted over the Beaufort and hit the ground but then that lifted pretty well high up. Then when we landed this time hit too hard, undercarriage split and we crashed in to —
HB: Slid down.
CM: That’s it.
HB: Anybody hurt?
CM: No. Of course with the Wellington when it crashes on the ground you can’t get out.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: Did you know that?
HB: Yeah.
CM: You get in through the nose.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And that goes straight against the ground. So they’d got a screened, a screened navigator basically standing beside me in the astrodome. And he undid, I wouldn’t have known about this, he undid the four screws under the astrodome and just on the approach he knew. He knew what he was doing. He was going to make an escape hatch to start with before we even got down.
HB: Right.
CM: And he put us down. He says, ‘You’re going out there.’ The only snag is that when we hit I was knocked arse over t [laughs] and I was lost. But the navigator he hung on. He was experienced. He hung on and he was the first out. And when the others would have got out the same, the pilot got through the cockpit.
HB: Aye. Aye.
CM: Which took a lot of time to take in. Of course I was hit in the back and I strolled out of the, from underneath the astrodome and I heard the navigator say, ‘The w/ops still in there. The w/ops still in there.’ Because expecting the Wellingtons are notorious burners.
HB: Aye.
CM: Experienced. And then one of the, one of the brave members of my crew got in. I’ve forgotten his name, what it was now. But he was the chap and he hooked me out. He sort of picked me up and pushed me through the astrodome.
HB: Right. That’s —
CM: And I can’t, looking back I can’t ever remember thanking that chap.
HB: No.
CM: I was so shocked that they did that. That Kit McVickers was involved in this crash. I couldn’t get over it. But I can’t ever, I may have done. I think I should have done through my background and training.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I can’t ever remember saying. Look [pause] I can’t even remember his name.
HB: And that was just a, and that was just a routine training flight.
CM: That’s right. That’s right.
HB: At night. A night time one.
CM: I was very pleased of course that the crew were around me.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The most wonderful men. But then again all the crews I’ve ever had. They were all wonderful men.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So then you moved on to the Conversion Units at Chedburgh and Wratting Common.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And that, and was that when, that was when you moved to Stirlings was it? From the Wellingtons?
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah. Oh, I see what you mean. Yes. Yeah. Topham was, Topham was your, was your pilot nearly all the way through there. And then [pause] it’s alright. I’m just, I’ve turned two pages in your logbook here. At Stradishall is where you joined up or you occasionally flew with Lloyd. What, what was his name? What was his name?
CM: What? Whose? What was —
HB: Lloyd. The pilot. Lloyd. What was his name? His full name.
CM: Just on Stirlings.
HB: No. On, yeah, Stirlings. Yeah.
CM: Well, first of all there was Johnny Topham.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And then Johnny. Johnny Lloyd. Both Johnny’s.
HB: They were both Johnny.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Right. So you, so then you pick up with Johnny Lloyd at Stradishall.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And you, and you do your training there and then you’re posted to 218 Squadron at Woolfox Lodge.
CM: Woolfox Lodge. Yeah. The best station I’ve ever been on.
HB: Right
CM: Right on the Great North Road.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: The billet. Within one minute of leaving my billet I’d be out on the side of the road and the boys — here’s my younger daughter now and her husband are coming. You’re very popular Mr Bartlett. Fred is it? Fred or Jim? First name.
HB: Harry.
CM: Harry. God, I was going to [unclear] yeah. And of course there was always traffic going backwards and forwards.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Military traffic.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You always get that. So I was lucky in that respect. This is, this is Mr Bartlett. Harry Bartlett.
Other: I Know. We spoke on the phone.
HB: Let me just, let me just, let me just stop the tape.
CM: Fiona.
HB: For a second.
CM: Yeah.
[recording paused]
HB: It’s 12.30 and we’re going to restart.
CM: Does that mean that memorable conversation hasn’t been recorded then?
HB: No. Perhaps as well we haven’t recorded that bit of the conversation. Right.
CM: But that, that was part of my life and of course we depend on communications with the girlfriends to keep us going. We looked forward. No one was more popular than the postman at Bomber Command. Letters coming in. Really beautiful. People loved their communications.
HB: Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. Well, we’ll just go back. We’re on 218, Gold Coast Squadron now. And that’s — sorry I’ve, I’ve closed the book and lost the page.
CM: It is bewildering because it isn’t straightforward because losing these people to LMF and one way or another it became a little bit bitty through my tour.
HB: Yes. Yes. That’s [pause] sorry that’s — I’ve, I’ve somehow managed to lose the whole of the Second World War there to closing the pages. A clever thing to do.
CM: I know. It’s easily done.
HB: Right. So, so you’re on, you’re on Stirlings. We’re in 1944 and you’re flying operations then. And you’re doing all the standard.
CM: But don’t forget at that time there’s the preparation for, D-Day was coming and of course although we were on the squadron but we were the new boys. And they didn’t want, with this big invasion going to take place, new boys cluttering up the edges. So consequently we found ourselves as a crew just chucked a little bit to one side because they wanted to get the main force trained. We were just incidental. So the only chance we’d got of getting operational in those days was mine laying. But of course even mine laying went by the board. We were also trained. Trained up to do this raid on the, with 617 Squadron dropping radars. Dropping Window all along the route to indicate a big fleet going to the north of where they actually landed. And 218 and 617 were two squadrons doing that. I wasn’t even on that because we were just on the, we were the new boys.
HB: Yeah.
CM: On the edges.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But with all this activity going on but not being part of it and we were too late to join it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: They didn’t want to be cluttered up because at that time it was getting on for June wasn’t it? If you look at the date it’s getting on for June the 6th
HB: Yeah.
CM: D-Day.
HB: Because, because throughout what you’re talking about. Through, throughout June and [pause] June and July you’re flying bullseye.
CM: Yeah. The bullseye was the last thing before you actually did operations. It just kept, took in all the aspects of bombing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Without actually being there. Bullseye. It was. There was some navigation, dropping bombs and practice bombs and flares. We did use operational techniques without being actually on operations.
HB: Right. Right.
CM: That sort of thing.
HB: Right. So, we’ve come through June. We’ve got into July. You’re still doing a lot of training flights.
CM: That’s right. Because that was the aftermath. Things were still in a bit of chaos.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I did my first operation there. Sometime around, around about. Generally, on pages you can see war operation. I didn’t even know how to report in my logbook. You never put war operations. You put operations.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Have you seen it yet? Operation. War operation. That was the only one we did in the Stirling.
HB: I’ll have a quick. I’ve got it. War operation.
CM: The one.
HB: That was the 8th of July.
CM: Yeah. So I missed getting the —
HB: Yeah. That was in a Stirling.
CM: That’s right.
HB: With the pilot, with —
CM: Lloyd.
HB: Warrant Officer Lloyd. Johnny Lloyd. Johnny. Johnny Lloyd.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And that was — Attacked FB. Flying —
CM: Flying bomb.
HB: Flying bomb depot.
CM: Yeah.
HB: In daylight.
CM: That’s right.
HB: [unclear] Capel. Yeah.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Right. So that was, that was your first was it?
CM: That’s right.
HB: That was your first op.
CM: Also shortly after that they decided they weren’t going to fly Stirlings anymore so in all the chaos their transferring to Lancasters. You see.
HB: Right [coughs] excuse me. Oh yes. Because by August you’re doing, you’re doing the training on Lancasters. And then we get to September ’44. Then it really starts doesn’t it?
CM: Well, our Johnny went LMF if you read it.
HB: Who? Who went LMF?
CM: Of course that’s not in my logbook because you couldn’t put anything. You didn’t even leave. You just didn’t leave the ground.
HB: No.
CM: You just sat on the side of the runway.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So it’s not, it’s not even listed because why, why should it be? We didn’t get airborne.
HB: No. Who? Who, who actually went LMF?
CM: That you’ll find that in the end Warrant Officer Lloyd ends. No more for him at all. And they get a new one. This one. It took a bit of, it took about three or four weeks to get a new captain who was Hill. Warrant Officer Hill.
HB: Oh yeah that was —
CM: Who was the best pilot.
HB: That was December. Yeah. In the December. Right. And well we’ll, we’ll come on to that because you’re flying with Lloyd in Lancasters. NF 955 and 56. And you’re doing operations at Le Havre. Three. Three times you went over Le Havre.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And —
CM: On the last trip there, when Glenn Miller was — we jettisoned all our bombs in the sea because the target was covered with, covered with, covered with mist.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So you couldn’t drop them because there was civilian people in Le Havre.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So we jettisoned in the sea and that was the day that Glenn missing, Glenn missing went miller [laughs] Glenn Miller went missing.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Flying to the site of a new concert they were going to have.
HB: Oh right.
CM: He must have been, he must have been the most terrified man in the world to suddenly find you were flying over the North Sea just within a few miles of France and suddenly being bombed by, in the middle of the ocean, the middle of the North Sea by about five hundred bombers.
HB: Oh.
CM: The jettison area couldn’t, they couldn’t, they could have jettisoned by the city but civilians were there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was a terrible waste. And he must have thought what on earth is happening here?
HB: And that was, that was —
CM: The gunner from 90 squadron at Tuddenham he saw, he saw this little plane. Pioneer or some —
HB: Yeah.
CM: He saw it actually go in.
HB: Did he?
CM: So there’s no doubt about that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The September. The bombing.
HB: Because that’s, that’s 5th 6th 8th of September. Yeah. And then you did an operation to Frankfurt.
CM: That’s right. A night.
HB: A night operation.
CM: We lost four aircraft on one flight on that raid. In that incident. Because it’s a city you see.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. And that was, that was Lloyd flying that. And then you did an attack. Oh, 28th of September you did an attack on Calais.
CM: That’s right.
HB: A German garrison.
CM: We could, we could actually see the airfield from where we were bombing it. And then we lost three aircraft on that raid. The Calais raid.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The fire. The 88 millimetre fire from, from Calais was so accurate that the aircraft was shot down within sight of their base.
HB: Oh no. Oh dear.
CM: So at Calais is hardly worth anyone going actually.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just shoot the bombs from the guns from Dover.
HB: Right.
CM: But I remember that as being very very fraught because it was a small target and there were five hundred bombers on it. It was absolutely bloody dangerous.
HB: So, I mean your last — it says in here your last operation with Johnny Lloyd was Wilhelmshaven.
CM: Wilhelmshaven. That’s right.
HB: Yeah. That was 5th of October. And then you did, you did some navigational training which was abandoned.
CM: Who was flying on the navigational training?
HB: That was Lloyd. That was Johnny Lloyd.
CM: Oh that’s —
HB: That was an abandoned exercise.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And then —
CM: Now, one of those trips wouldn’t be in my logbook because we didn’t get airborne but he suddenly decided he wasn’t going to go.
HB: Right. Because then you’ve got a you see where they’ve cut the logbook to fit this folder they’ve lost the actual first day. So it’s really early on in December and you’ve got Johnny Lloyd flying on a familiarisation with a Lancaster. Circuits and landings.
CM: That’s right. So it was only, it was when I was on Lancasters that we did the aborted trip on the —
HB: Yeah.
CM: He went LMF.
HB: And then —
CM: So —
HB: And then within a couple of days you’ve got WO, Warrant Officer Hill.
CM: That’s right. Well, there you are you see. One didn’t fly and then you’ve got to get a new captain. Still, we never saw Johnny Lloyd again.
HB: Yeah.
CM: He just vanished off the face of the earth.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s what I say. All these things —
HB: On the time, on the date.
CM: All these things of the crew were hushed up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You don’t hear very much about but mostly it was never put down in black and white.
HB: On the day that, on the day that as you described it he went LMF. What, what happened on that day? Can you remember?
CM: Well, taking off as I believe about 2 o’clock on the afternoon. That’s right. And as I said the 149 Squadron which was with us at Methwold were coming on to the peri track this way and we, 218 were coming around this way. So the peri track was filled with aircraft converged on the runway here. Right. Well, so when we went into the runway on the right hand side we were blocking the runway. No one could take off. Then we started to backtrack slowly. Taff in such a state by the door I can’t imagine what it was like. Silence in the crew. Turns around in front of all this other aircraft, took aim [unclear] and off he went again. Exactly the same thing. [unclear] went straight in there and of course the commanding officer in the background weren’t having that. So anyway straight in. They came in the jeep at the foot of our aircraft and straight away, barking. Couldn’t move. And then, ‘Follow me.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: Before the jeep went back to dispersal.
HB: So, he was, he was sitting in the pilot’s seat.
CM: That’s right. He was —
HB: But he just couldn’t take off.
CM: That’s right. He just wouldn’t take off.
HB: He wouldn’t take off.
CM: He said he could but he didn’t want to. He realised I think that Good God, I’m going to be ruddy be killed on this operation. I’m not sufficiently good. I’ve overstretched my capabilities. And I’m not really, I should have taken more notice of [pause] I think he was worried he was going to make a mess of things.
HB: Right.
CM: This turmoil inside for some reason. I don’t know. Presumably —
HB: So you got back. You go in. You got back to this dispersal.
CM: We got back. He stayed in his seat. He says.
HB: Yeah.
CM: One of the commanding officers came running at the aircraft. He says, ‘Stay where you are. Stay where you are.’ And then he says, ‘Don’t anyone move. Leave the captain there and come out now.’ Stop what you’re doing. Just drop it. Come out.’ So we all trooped out and they had a whatsthename, jeep waggon came out. A little bus to take us back. And one of us said, ‘What’s going to happen to Johnny?’ You know. Because he was very popular you see. We loved him. Johnny Lloyd. He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘He’ll be taken care of. Don’t you worry about that. Johnny’ll be taken care of.’ And we found out later that he’d ditched, within twenty four hours he’d left the station.
HB: Right.
CM: And within, ooh a few weeks we found he’d been turfed out of the Air Force.
HB: Right.
CM: He then went back to his place where he lived and he became destitute. That’s the story we found out later and he was ashamed of himself. Humiliated. His status as a captain and as a solicitor, it was the damned report, it was terrible. But then we found he’d, there’s a rumour that his family had gone off and sent him to Australia and he was doing his training as a solicitor. But the booze. The booze also took part in it this time.
HB: Oh right.
CM: And nothing went in there. In the erratic, an erratic state, to doomsday if you like. Just died in Australia.
HB: Oh, that’s a shame.
CM: I’ve still got — he gave me the book of poetry I’ve got down there somewhere. With his name in the front.
HB: Right.
CM: Johnny Lloyd. He was a very clever man. During the time we were there, the time we were hanging about. I’ll tell you about it. A chap who had been sent on leave to, to Ireland was court martialled and they want someone to take the case. And so Johnny said, ‘I’ve got nothing to do. I’ll take it.’ And he’d been sent on indefinite leave on this unit [unclear] To an escort unit. And he was sent on leave and they’d forgotten about him. They just kept on sending him a renewal of his leave and his money every fortnight. So of course he thought, well, the money’s coming in I must be on, still on indefinite leave.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Well, it lasted about two years this.
HB: Oh no.
CM: So anyway Johnny was, to cut an awful long story short he was, Johnny, he was a very good solicitor. Very good [unclear] He had the gift of the gab. A Welshman but a poetic Welshman.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And a solicitor. And he got, he got the chap off. It was the talk of the command.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Of 3 Group for a long time.
HB: Obviously, a well —
CM: Eloquent and [unclear] Put on a defence that they couldn’t penetrate. What could the man do? He was living in the neutral part of the, though he wasn’t in the war. He was there getting his regular payments and money and free meals and ration cards.
HB: Oh dear. Yeah.
CM: So he said what could he do? He must have been sickened. ‘I’m not doing the right thing but what can I do? If I go back now they’ll probably court martial me.’ Which is what they did when he did get back.
HB: So, Johnny. Johnny —
CM: So there you are. That’s an incidental.
HB: Yeah. No. No. No. It’s important. Johnny. Johnny. Johnny Lloyd was a popular man.
CM: Oh yes.
HB: Did you ever see him after the war?
CM: No.
HB: At all.
CM: Shirley and I —
HB: That was it.
CM: My wife and I went to this place of birth and every time we mentioned the word Johnny Lloyd everyone clamped up.
HB: Oh right.
CM: We got, we got the one chap who was at the boozer. The boozer. [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: He knew Johnny and said he was a fine man but he said he didn’t get a job and he could be found on any any day any time on the street ends, ‘Can you give me sixpence for a cup of tea?’ But that’s a big blow to me as a chap who loved him. And Shirley who didn’t know, didn’t know him but to come across that sort of situation.
HB: Sad.
CM: So he went to Australia. Drank himself to death.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I did go to his house because I think one of his relatives still lived there but they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t talk to us.
HB: No.
CM: And Shirley, my wife could charm the birds out of a tree but even her eloquence couldn’t do it.
HB: No. That’s a shame.
CM: So what I did, my duty by him. I wanted to find out what really happened but I failed. Well, I knew that what the end was.
HB: You say, you say failed. I think you probably did your best.
CM: I can take you and show you a photograph of Johnny Lloyd. My script is, my computer has been u/s but I’ve got a photograph of my crew. The crew I finished my tour with and the one that was with Hill. But this one here was done on the Stirlings when he first came to the squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: And it’s a very good photograph which was of Johnny —
HB: That’s, that’s alright. We’ll grab the, grab the photo in a minute.
CM: In a minute.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Oh, I was going to turn the computer on. You know when it comes up —
HB: Don’t, don’t worry about that.
CM: Ok.
HB: We’ll sort that. We’ll sort that in a minute because what I wanted, what I wanted to do was was to get through. You’ve got —
CM: Operations.
HB: You’ve now got —
CM: Operations. Yeah.
HB: Another pilot —
CM: Yes.
HB: That you’re getting to know and learn. Now, you said earlier to me before we started the recording he was an experienced pilot.
CM: Johnny. Yes. He was at, oh for two years at an airfield. An Advanced Flying Unit.
HB: Right.
CM: Flying Ansons.
HB: This was Hill?
CM: That’s right. That was Johnny. But that’s, that’s appeared in the book of course, but he was a well-known pilot.
HB: Right.
CM: He was an exhibitionist through the routine. Very good at it.
HB: Oh right.
CM: But he wasn’t meant for operations. Johnny. He was poetic. He’s like that famous Dylan Thomas.
HB: Sorry. That’s Johnny. That’s Johnny Lloyd is it?
Other: We’ve moved on.
HB: Yeah.
Other: From Johnny Lloyd, dad.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Eh?
Other: We’ve moved on from Johnny Lloyd.
CM: We’ve —
HB: Right. So, it’s Johnny. So, so Hill.
CM: Yeah. Well, Hill —
HB: We’ve now got him as the pilot.
CM: He was an experienced pilot from the Far East err the Middle East.
HB: The Middle East.
CM: He’d had a tour of operations on Wellingtons.
HB: Right.
CM: So, when we got him —
HB: What was, what was his first name, Kit?
CM: First name? Bill.
HB: Bill. So that’s Bill Hill.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And he’d come to you from the Middle East.
CM: Yeah. He’d been in this country some time actually.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But he wasn’t trained on Lancasters and when we got him he was just an ex-Wellington pilot. And then we went to, through the, he did the Lancaster finishing course there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Change of direction with Bill Hill. Then back with, back to my old squadron again.
HB: And —
CM: 218.
HB: And really really quite quickly he’s in to an operation.
CM: That’s right. Because he was experienced.
HB: On New Year’s Eve 1944 to Vohwinkel, in the Ruhr Valley.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Wow. And you obviously, and then, and then you had to go, you did that in the daytime and then you had to go back and do it in the night time.
CM: That’s right. I remember that one.
HB: Blimey. And that, that’s yeah. You’re then really then in to doing quite a few of these operations.
CM: That’s right. That’s when, that’s when my tour really started, because —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Johnny sorry Bill Hill was determined to get through a tour. He wanted to do it as quickly as possible.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Yeah. He was a good.
HB: Well, he’s got a good team.
CM: He was an excellent pilot. He was an ex-deputy headmaster and he was only about twenty five.
HB: Oh right.
CM: He was a clever lad.
HB: Yeah.
CM: He used to do comic turns as well on the stage.
HB: Did he?
CM: Oh yes. And in the air. He keep coming back from operations Johnny err Bill, Bill Hill was witty with us all together. And also on Dresden I remember he said to me, he said, ‘Wireless operator.’ I said, ‘Yes, captain.’ He said, ‘Do you want to see a, see a sight you’ll never ever see in your life ever again?’ I said, ‘Well, yes.’ He said, ‘Well, just get in the astrodome and have a look down. Down stairs. Dresden.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was too. I’ve never seen anything. The first thing I saw when I was in the astrodome was smoke. Something you hadn’t even heard of. Smoke from the burning city coming past the aeroplane. But you could see the [unclear] of streets burning ferociously.
HB: What height would you be at there?
CM: Oh about twenty thousand feet.
HB: About twenty. Yeah.
CM: It varied twenty, between twenty one, twenty two, twenty three. It could be fifty feet.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was so that you wouldn’t — to lessen the risk of collision over the target.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because all the aircraft coming in on the markers from all directions, you know. Coming in.
HB: So you were at twenty thousand feet and you’re actually flying through the smoke.
CM: Yeah.
HB: From Dresden.
CM: So the smoke was so intense. The wooden mostly, part of the really beautiful buildings the wooden buildings were quite inflammable and they were set alight. And there it was.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Start the whole firestorm as they called it.
HB: Can you, can you remember what they told you on the briefing for Dresden?
CM: Yes. They said there were people in the town, the troops concentrating in the town. They said, not only that but not only ball bearings but some things very important mechanisms to further the war.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Radar and all sorts of things they had scattered all over Dresden. All sorts of other things. Now, our enemies are saying well it was a quiet town. It didn’t do anything at all. It wasn’t. It was very well armed but they didn’t have any, this late in the war all the guns had been taken away because the Germans thought oh they’re going to leave Dresden alone because it’s a wonderful city. They’re good that they, because that business with Churchill started off and Dresden, Chemnitz and Berlin and all these taken at this, we wrecked them all. Dresden was wrecked in one raid.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Eight hundred and fifty bombers.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just saturation. It’s in there I think, is Dresden.
HB: Yes, yes. Yeah. I’ve got —
CM: Nine hours fifty minutes.
HB: Yeah. It’s got, it’s got marked in your book here. Dresden. Saturation raid. And Chemnitz.
CM: Yeah. Next day there wasn’t such a good raid because the weather was bad.
HB: Yeah. I’m just going to check because I think. I’m not sure about the batteries on this. Oh no, we’re alright for a minute.
Other: Dad.
HB: Alright for a minute.
Other: Would you like me to make you another cup of tea?
CM: Ask Mr, Mr Hartley. I presume you’d prefer to be called Harry.
HB: Harry.
CM: Harry.
Other: Harry would you like —
CM: In Geordieland you would be called called Harry Hartley.
Other: Daddy, would you like me to make you a cup of tea?
CM: Yes, dear. It’ll freshen up the one that.
Other: I’ll make you a fresh one.
HB: Right. So —
CM: I told you that was the thoughtful one, didn’t I?
HB: Yeah.
CM: She’s the more thoughtful one.
Other: Dad faces us off against each other as you’ve probably realised.
HB: Oh, I gathered that [laughs]
Other: Yeah.
HB: Right. So, yeah. So, we’ve got, he’s certainly rattling through the operations here because you’re, you’re talking for, this is February 1st 3rd 9th 13th 14th 18th 19th 23.
CM: That’s right. That was —
HB: And that’s operations every two or three days isn’t it?
CM: That’s right. That’s right.
HB: Right. And and that, so I mean that’s how it goes through to April ’45.
CM: Well, there you can see the tour, the tour expired citation. Can you see that? Tour expired.
HB: Hang on.
CM: It would be in the last few pages of my logbook.
HB: Yeah. First operational tour completed.
CM: That’s it.
HB: 9th of April.
CM: Just got to put a tour in before the end of the war.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because I was still, I was very young you know Mr Hartley. I was always, I wasn’t a kind of a middle aged old bastard. [laughs]
HB: Oh no. No.
CM: I was quite youthful.
HB: Oh no [laughs] I mean, I mean you were born in ’22.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And you’ve gone in there at what? Nineteen? Twenty?
CM: That’s right. That’s right. Nineteen.
HB: Nineteen. Right. And, and —
CM: I joined —
HB: Then you finished, you finished your tour there and —
CM: Kiel. It’s on the top of the —
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Your last one was Kiel.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Naval, the naval arsenal.
CM: And on that raid there’s the battle cruiser, German pocket battleship. The last one that was [unclear]. We sank that on that raid. It was moored in the Kiel Harbour. It was moored at the side of the quay and it turned over.
HB: Oh right.
CM: As well as other members of the Bomber Command which were much more [unclear] than me. They sank the Tirpitz in Trondheim harbour. It wasn’t me that did that.
HB: No
CM: But Bomber Command sank more battleships than the Navy.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It’s incredible that when you think of it.
HB: That’s amazing that. Right. So we’ve got — we’ve now gone to 90 Squadron at Tuddenham.
CM: Tuddenham. Yeah.
HB: But before we get there. Right. We were talking about girlfriends earlier on.
CM: Girlfriends. Not Tuddenham.
HB: We were talking about entertainment and dances and all this sort of business and this carry on.
CM: Scandals.
HB: No. No. No. I’m not after, I’m not after scandals.
CM: They’re not scandals.
HB: I’m not after scandals at all but if you want to tell me any scandals I’ll talk to you.
CM: There weren’t many scandals.
HB: But did you actually, looking at the picture on the wall you obviously met your wife during the war.
CM: No.
HB: No.
CM: No. I married my wife just after the war. My first wife.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And —
HB: And did you meet, did you meet your wife during the war?
CM: No. She was a girlfriend from home.
CM: Right.
HB: Jean Smith. Unfortunately, we were married for about, only about three or four months she became pregnant.
HB: Right.
CM: And about a few months after that she had a miscarriage and she had, she contracted tuberculosis. Galloping tuberculosis and within six weeks we knew she was going to die.
HB: Oh no.
CM: Just this, this galloping thing. You couldn’t. Just a few months after that they found a cure for tuberculosis. Even this severe one that Jean had. But it was too late for her.
HB: Was that when —
CM: She went down just like I’m doing, it happened to have, no matter what I eat I can still lose weight.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just lose weight. But that’s the same with poor Jean no matter what she ate she turned in to a shadow and just faded away.
HB: And what, when was that? What —?
CM: That was in ’46 I think, really.
HB: 1946.
CM: Because I’d, I’d left the Air Force by then but I didn’t stay left because as soon as Jean died I thought well what the hell do I do? Going back to the steelworks. Three shift system, you know. I think I’ll go back there. I was very happy in the Air Force. So my father said well Jean I’m afraid that we weren’t going to keep her long like. So I wasn’t long in the when I left the Air Force I was sent home, you know, and she just died. So she died and I wasn’t the sort of man to hang around of course and I started going out before I met Shirley. My beloved wife. My really beloved wife. Married fifty seven years. Two children. And a beauty. Look at that photograph on your right hand side.
HB: Oh yes. I’ve, I’ve already seen the photos. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: And you see that on the wedding photograph I haven’t got the common sense to hold my wife by the hand. I said why couldn’t it, to anybody that sees that now, ‘Oh, you made a mess of that Kit lad.’ I said, ‘Why didn’t the photographer say for Christ’s sake. Hold your wife by the hand.’ Not hold your belt by the hand. But they didn’t. Now, if I’d been a photographer I think I would have said, ‘Hold your wife by the hand.’ Certain things, certain trades must do that’s to make sure that the pose is right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: However, it’s nice. You see my wife. She was only eighteen then.
HB: So where did you meet Shirley?
CM: Grimsby. I was stationed at Binbrook.
HB: Right.
CM: I figured out that for over five years I was in two Bomber Command squadrons.
HB: Right.
CM: 12 and 101.
HB: Right. Right. So, so when we’re, so let’s just go back to 218. You’re in 218.
CM: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: You’re based at Woolfox Lodge.
CM: Well, when tour expired the crew left. All the crew. Leaving me behind because I had just been promoted to warrant officer. They wanted a warrant officer to take charge of the parachute section. So they left me behind. And they said also, ‘You’ve done a few trips less than your crew. Therefore, you’ll be available for a spare.’
HB: Right.
CM: So I was, so I was a new warrant officer and I was still on the squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: Which had the parachute section.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I had to pack that in deliberately because the chap in charge of the parachute section, genuinely head of the section itself came to me. He said, ‘Mac,’ I didn’t let the fact that he’d missed out the sir because I was a warrant officer by then. And he said, ‘They’ve got fifty parachutes not on inventory.’ Right. I said, ‘Yes,’ knowing what was coming. He said, ‘Well, if they’re not on the inventory they don’t belong to anyone.’ He said, ‘We could make ourselves a little bit of money here.’ I got a cold, I remember feeling a cold feeling. I’ve gone through a tour of operations. I’ve risked my life and I never knew, knowing the McVickers luck I was going to be found out before I could say one word I was going to be found out. So, I said, ‘No. I want nothing to do with this,’ and I went straight from there to my commanding officer at the station, not the station commander the one that’s responsible, and said, ‘I have a problem sir.’ He said, ‘What is it?’ I said, ‘It’s very personal sir but it’s taken me a long time to think about this.’ He said, ‘You’ve got, I think you’ve told me this you’d better get on with it. And I said, ‘My flight sergeant, he wants me to do a, about the inventory.’ I said, ‘I want absolutely nothing to do with it.’ He said, ‘You’ve done the right thing.’
HB: Right. Yeah.
CM: ‘You’ve done the right thing.’ And all that’s happened as far as I know he was just taken off. Taken off. Was posted.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I’ve shared this because I felt very guilty about this. He said, ‘It’s your duty to do that.’ So that was a bit of guilt in my life.
HB: Yeah.
CM: However, it is. It is. It was the right thing to do. If I’d been involved I would have lost my whole career on operations. All the medals would have [makes noise] you know.
HB: Yeah. Everything.
CM: So anyway I I don’t know whether that would figure in your synopsis but they’d say, ‘Was he a nice chap?’ ‘No, in all my years he was a bastard after all.’ You know.
HB: No. No. No. No. What, I mean what obviously what you’re now telling me is, is this is, this is at the end of the war and there’s big, obviously a big change of attitudes.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Now. So, and and you’re posted out to Conversion Units and you, and you eventually end up at Binbrook.
CM: That’s right.
HB: As a warrant officer there. And I mean there you’ve, it’s still very intensive. Even in 1947 you’re still flying. Flying an awful lot.
CM: Oh, that’s right. Flying was there. That was still a bomber squadron.
HB: Yeah.
CM: In fact I used to say to Mike Chalk my friend, he said, ‘We’re the only two buggers that, we’re the only two wireless operators left on the squadron.’ I said, ‘We can’t be operational.’ Then the Korean war came up and we had, we had not only Binbrook but all the crews there were no more than you could purpose with four or five to crew. Couldn’t make up proper crews.
HB: Oh right.
CM: So, by this time they started the new ranks. I don’t know if you know anything about this. Because this is something that should be very interesting to you. What happened immediately after the war. If you look at this photograph here.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Take a little look standing up, Harry.
HB: Oh no, I’ve seen that one.
CM: And what do you see on the arm of your favourite flight sergeant? By that time ranks had changed and I was, can you see that rank?
HB: That’s. Is that, is that the change to master.
CM: No. That was the master. That was signaller 1. Three. Three stars and a crown.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, that was the same as flight sergeant. I’d been reduced to flight sergeant anyway so they reduced me even further to signaller 1 which was the same as a flight sergeant. So anyway, it resulted in a mass exodus.
HB: Right.
CM: Of people. Some of the officers had been given a commission by an interview and there they were walking around. Didn’t touch them at all.
HB: Right.
CM: So people got fed up with this because there were still more NCOs than officers and of course they were leaving in droves. The next we knew that’d, just over two years and the next thing we knew was revert. Take the stripes off, take the stars off, revert back to whatsaname, whatever that indicated. And in my case it was flight sergeant so put flight sergeant stripes on. Same as there.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So —
HB: Got one there.
CM: Not many people know about this.
HB: No. No.
CM: At the same time it’s a very important aspect of Bomber Command after the war. Not only Bomber Command but all the Commands.
HB: Yeah. Yes.
CM: All aircrew. The NCOs were given a kick in the teeth and shat on from a very great height.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Now, they recognise that there’s been that but they promised there’d be recognised, all that they should be kept the aircrew separate from the sergeants but it was good that way but what we sort of did was the complete dislocation of all the squadrons of Bomber Command. They didn’t have, they didn’t have a Bomber Command.
HB: No.
CM: By this. Not very much talked about that but I can show you letters I’ve written there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: About this.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I think this is relevant.
HB: It is. It’s all, it’s all relevant. It is all relevant.
CM: You didn’t know about this and yet you’re an interviewer.
HB: No.
CM: You can see it there.
HB: No.
CM: Passed the —
HB: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Because it was only because I had certificate that I was married. Jean. You’ve seen Jane.
HB: Yeah.
CM: My other daughter. That’s her as a baby. That’s in —
HB: So that so that, that’s occurring as the Korean war’s —
CM: That’s right.
HB: Brewing up.
CM: Though Bomber Command wasn’t involved at all in the Korean war.
HB: No. No.
CM: Because they couldn’t be. They didn’t have enough crews. Now, you see that must have hit the people who organised this. It must have hit them with a hell of a wallop. They were responsible for the absolute the demolition of one of the most powerful weapons known to history. The Bomber Command was as you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Far bigger than the American Air Force in, in its numbers. And don’t forget they made big mistakes, the Americans at the beginning of the war. They thought they could fight the fighters off. They couldn’t.
HB: No.
CM: They shot a lot of fighters down but they couldn’t fight them off.
HB: No.
CM: They lost fifty aircraft, fifty each on two of the ball bearing plants at Schweinfurt.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s a hundred and twenty aircraft. No. A hundred aircraft. A hundred aircraft.
HB: Yeah.
CM: These B17s. There were only them that you can recognise and of course Bomber Command and I think my God and they introduced this new rank and they all kept going out in droves and asking to get premature release. We’ve destroyed a really good Air Force. That, that is never talked about.
HB: No.
CM: But I talked about it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I wrote a letter [unclear] a student.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You’ll have to come again. I put it all down in black and white.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I’ll show it to you. You might, you might create a, Mr Hartley what’s known as a coup.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Because nobody else knows about it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: And I’ll show you something and you might think after all you must have the better interviewing technique. You speak with posh language but you didn’t get this information.
HB: No. No. That’s true.
CM: You flashed a photograph of me out in my, in my James Bond days. I was auditioning for James Bond [laughs] You see.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Things are made in —
HB: Was this occurring after you’d gone to the instructor’s school? Or before?
CM: It was, it happened if you look at my logbook it says it should be ‘47.
HB: So I’ve got you going, I’ve got you going to Scampton in July ’47.
CM: That’s right. I was on detachment there.
HB: On Lincolns.
CM: That’s right. Because all the Bomber Command was on, at Binbrook.
CM: All Lincolns.
HB: Yeah.
CM: All Lincolns.
HB: And so was, so the time you’re talking about when they decimated the NCO level.
CM: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: Is that before ’47 or after?
CM: Well, it was 1948.
HB: Oh right. Right.
CM: I was married in ’48 look at the bit.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Even though I’m wearing a, what’s, look carefully a warrant officer’s uniform right. If you look carefully you can just see the badge.
HB: Yeah. With the circle.
CM: But we were allowed to wear the officer’s uniform because at that time there was a hell of a shortage of uniforms.
HB: Oh right.
CM: And just keep on wearing it until as soon as we get new uniform. So there we were parading around as warrant officers even though we weren’t. And eventually we had to have the warrant officers tapes off and put the whatsanames on, but that was very humiliating you know Harry.
HB: Yes, I can imagine.
CM: And just you remember especially the warrant officer suddenly got bumped to sergeant’s stripes. Stars instead of stripes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was just humiliating in the extreme. There was a tremendous amount of ill hateful feeling about it in the squadrons. They detested the officer who kept the, nobody who kept their own rank.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And at the same, they graduated as officers, they graduated as, but the same, exactly the same training. Exactly the same job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Yet they were left alone.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And that of course that led to tremendous resentment.
HB: Yes, I can imagine.
CM: But regardless of what happens in this interview I will dig out certainly this for your own personal viewing.
HB: Yeah. Oh, I’d be, no, I’d be, I’ll be interested in that. I’ve got a — I don’t know if I’ve read this right. I’ve got you here in your book. In your, in your logbook at number 100 Torpedo Bomber Squadron, Hemswell.
CM: That’s right. That was the squadron when I came and joined the Air Force. I was posted to Hemswell. Hemswell was.
HB: Is this when you, when you rejoined?
CM: When I rejoined the Air Force.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And that was August. I’ve got August ‘47.
CM: ’47 would be.
HB: August ‘47 for that. Yeah. And then it goes. And then it goes through. Were you instructing there?
CM: No. At Binbrook, no. I was a —
HB: No. At Hemswell.
CM: At Hemswell.
HB: With the torpedo bombers.
CM: That was a detachment, I think. No. That was at, this was what was the squadron name at the top?
HB: It just says number 100 torpedo bomber squadron.
CM: That’s right. That’s right. That’s Hemswell.
HB: At Hemswell.
CM: I was just attached to the squadron. Binbrook was being resurfaced.
HB: Ah right. Right. That — yeah. Yeah. Because then you returned to Binbrook.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah. I see what you, I see what that, I see what that does. So you’ve come through to ‘47 ’48.
CM: That’s right. Yeah.
HB: And you’ve gone to 12, 12 Squadron.
CM: 12. That’s right. Famous squadron.
HB: At Binbrook.
CM: VCs. The VCs were the two men who sacrificed their lives at the bridges at the invasion. You know, they bombed the bridges and both were killed, attacking success of one of those bridges and they both got VCs. But they’re all [unclear] the Fairey Battle this was.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: At the beginning of the war. But the airman that was flying with them wasn’t a sergeant. He was an LAC so the thing is this. The argument that he was an LAC. Therefore he wasn’t entitled to a DFC but as a LAC he wasn’t entitled but also quite obviously to the DFM which the two sergeants had got. The VC, sorry the two sergeants had got. He got nothing, but the LAC was doing the exactly the same job as the pilot and the navigator who got, two got VCs. They couldn’t leave him out and isolate as if he’d done nothing. God knows what acts of bravery he would have done, but they didn’t. They just a little kind of, little bit of [unclear ] but they got VCs and he got nothing at all. That was quite a bit, that was at 12 Squadron. That was a squadron to which I belonged at that time. The chap called Norris [unclear] and on Pampas and Seaweeds.
HB: Yeah.
CM: We did, did a lot of Mousetrap trips on those squadrons
HB: Yeah. I noticed. I noticed that in your —
CM: Pampas.
HB: Operation Pampas. Yeah.
CM: And on one of those trips we met the Queen Mary in 17 degrees west and Nogger said, he said to the crew, ‘This a chance I wouldn’t miss for a thousand years.’ A thousand pounds. I’m not sure which. I think it was pounds. And we said, ‘Yes, Nogger,’ because we were all in awe of him. He was a skilful pilot.
HB: Which, which was he?
CM: We did an exhibition of flying to the occupants of the Queen Mary that they’d never seen in their life. Much better than you’d ever see in the —
HB: Yeah.
CM: He did everything.
HB: Was his name Norris?
CM: Nogger Norris. Yeah.
HB: Nogger Norris.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Right. Yeah.
CM: And I took a photograph of the Queen Mary but it was taken with my father in law’s box brownie camera. So, it was, even though I was pretty close to it it looks as though it was farther away.
HB: Yes. Yeah.
CM: But when we took the photograph with one of these alongside, Giles the cartoonist was on board the Queen Mary. Right.
HB: Right.
CM: He was on board.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And he, and Giles saw this, he saw this going on. This kind of shooting up. And he drew a cartoon of it and on the cartoon you could see the Lincoln aircraft 17 degrees west shooting up very close to the Queen Mary. In caricature. In drawing.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So, we didn’t know about that. So when we got back after all this shooting up and God knows what. I lost my trailing aerial as well. Is it in the book?
HB: There’s a thing in here. It just says trailing aerial struck by lightning.
CM: Do you see how many hours it is?
HB: Eight hours thirty five.
CM: Eight hours.
HB: Yeah.
CM: All through the Pampas you’ll see they’re all about six hours. So, the captain —
HB: Yeah.
CM: We came back late wanted to know exactly where we’d been for the two hours that’s missing. So Nogger Norris knowing this, before we landed said, ‘Don’t forget chaps. We haven’t seen the Queen Mary. Ok.’ So, when we landed we kept our buzz. A good crew. We kept it mum.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So the first thing that happened was the flight sergeant in charge of the ground staff got Nogger and [unclear] over to see the where my aerial left the aircraft. And my aerial left the aircraft, came down the, fair lead from the reel, down where we sat through the hole in the bottom of the aircraft and about three or four inches down at the fuselage it had welded itself onto the side of the fuselage about nine feet. It was nine feet along the fuselage, just up the fuselage, welded and beyond that there was a little nidge of about an inch and a half sticking up and it was beautifully rounded at the end. And the flight sergeant said to Nogger and I, he said, ‘That takes a bit of power to do that.’ To do that.
CM: Yeah.
CM: It takes a few volts to do that.’
CM: Yeah.
CM: I thought, Christ almighty all those millions of volts within two feet of my Charlie.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So, anyway it was interesting at nine o’clock the following Monday morning. This was a Friday night, Friday morning. The commanding officer [unclear] there, Nogger there and me here and the other navigator Chuck. I can’t remember his name now. It’s a terrible thing. Those names would have come easily six years ago.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: And just as he started I was right though about these missing two hours. And suddenly the shutters opened at the back and the adjutant popped his head through. He said, ‘Sir. Sir.’ He said, ‘Adj, I told I wasn’t to be disturbed for the next, the next hour.’ He said, ‘I think you’d like being disturbed by what I’ve got to show you.’ So, he said, ‘What is it? What is it?’ So the Adj took something in from the fellas and said give it to the commanding officer. And [unclear] remembered stern faced [pause] And I saw his face changing from stern to kind of a little smile at the edge of his face. And eventually [laughs]
HB: Yeah.
CM: He said, ‘Nogger,’ gave him the papers, ‘I know exactly what you were doing for those two hours.’ And of course it ended up with laughter. Because no harm had been done.
HB: No.
CM: And there was the, Giles with his family aboard the, the Queen Mary and on the side of the ship you see a beautiful sketch of the our aircraft. Can you believe that?
HB: I can. I can believe it.
CM: I cut it out, put it in my logbook and it rotted for the next twenty years. and just rotted away. And when we decided to put these down, these things down in print I realised that I didn’t have this. Now all my family, all my, have you seen them, have you seen them?
HB: Yeah.
CM: And others as well have tried to get copies of that. It’s not, it’s not to be got. Even the people getting back, the back, the numbers of the aircraft, of the Daily Express.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: It wasn’t there either. But Fiona looked up my career in the Air Force list as a warrant officer in the air force list she found it wasn’t listed and it said not to be released until 2022.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. It’ll be, it’ll be in the Official Secrets Act.
CM: So, so because that’s nothing to do with the Queen Mary. It also stopped me from having any contact with other things attached to that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So that I didn’t get it. Peter particularly at the museum museum archives but they couldn’t get that.
HB: No.
CM: But somebody’s got it. So I couldn’t make a proper story about it because I didn’t have the proof. Because people would say, ‘Oh yes, I’ve seen that. Oh yes. Indeed.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: But that was it.
HB: So then.
CM: I’m listening.
HB: We get to 1949 and we’re off to shorts.
Shorts and topi and off to the sunshine in Egypt.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Was that, what was —
CM: Shallufa. Then we went there and Bomber Command went there after the war. For a month every, like six or seven months I was there. Eight or nine months.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The desert was good weather. It was good flying weather.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s what was good. That’s what we went for. Took off from Shallufa and we did El Shatt. I always thought that couldn’t be the proper name. El Shatt. E L S H A T T. El Shatt. I was ashamed of putting it in my logbook [laughs] Bombing range.
HB: And yeah like you say just there for a few months and then you know what what accommodation did you live in in Egypt then? For those few months.
CM: Nissen. Nissen.
HB: In the Nissen hut.
CM: Well, the Nissen was corrugated iron. They were small.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Plenty of wood there and that sort of stuff.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. And then you’re back to —
CM: Don’t forget that Shallufa in the winter was colder. It was colder in Shallufa than it was in Binbrook.
HB: Yeah. I can, oh I can believe that. Yeah.
CM: By God, I’ve experienced some cold. Literally shivered. And shivered all night.
HB: Yeah.
CB: Couldn’t get warm.
HB: And you’re back to Binbrook.
CM: That’s right. Detachment you see.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear] 12 Squadron detachment and 101 Squadron detachment.
HB: And then [pause] this is where the change comes isn’t it? In 1949. Because you go to Scampton on a Conversion Unit.
CM: Scampton. That’s right.
HB: And then. And then you go to 101. Binbrook.
CM: That’s right. I went back to Scampton because that was the Lancaster Finishing School then.
HB: Right.
CM: Right. So, that led to the —
HB: Yeah. Oh. Yeah. You did say. You did say that. Sorry I just need to keep checking this. The batteries.
CM: They won’t be able to understand a word I’ve said, Harry.
HB: Well I can understand you and that’s all that’s all, that’s all that’s important.
CM: You’re nearly a, you’re nearly a Geordie yourself.
Other: Dad.
CM: Yes, dear.
Other: In ten minutes I’ve got, I’ve got an appointment.
CM: Fiona, darling, I thought you’d gone. Didn’t you think she’d gone, Harry?
Other: No. I’m sitting here but in ten minutes I’m going to have to go because I’ve got an appointment in Ashby at 2. So I’ll go on my appointment.
CM: That’s right.
Other: It’s just, it’s just the flats.
CM: Make sure Harry’s alright. A glass of whisky maybe.
Other: Can I get you anything at all, Harry?
HB: No. No. I’m fine. I’m fine.
Other: Would you like another drink?
HB: As long, as long, as long as Kit is alright.
Other: He’s got his cup of tea. Dad has his lunch at —
CM: The only thing that’s wrong with me is ninety five [unclear]
Other: Dad has his breakfast really late like, you know sort of late late so he has his meal, his lunch sort of often about 4.30. So he’s —
CM: Oh yes. That’s it.
Other: But, so I will come back, dad after I’ve done my appointment.
CM: Yeah. Ok.
Other: My son is wanting to buy a flat in Ashby.
CM: Right.
Other: And we’ve got an appointment to look around it with him.
HB: Right.
Other: Just to see what we think. And we cancelled it yesterday because we got stuck in traffic. So I’ll go.
HB: Well, what, what I’ll probably do is.
Other: I’ll come back.
HB: I’ll finish the interview and then I’ll contact you later and let you know how we’re going to come back.
CM: That’s right. I said to —
Other: You’re most welcome if you think you —
CM: Fiona said, ‘Oh he won’t, he’s not interested at all in what you did after the war. He’s not interested in,’ this and that. And I said, ‘You don’t know what he’s interested in until he comes.’ I thought about this because that is something that I think is very, that people should know about.
HB: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Other: It’s an interesting one.
CM: The dirty trick that the Bomber Command well not just bomber but the Air Force generally.
HB: But it, it’s that transition period we are also interested in.
Other: Yes.
HB: Because we’re going from a time of world war.
Other: Yeah. Conflicts.
CM: That’s right
HB: Into a peacetime and policing operations.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Of, you know Korea and all those.
CM: That’s one of the reasons why we never got the medals. Can’t you see that. We can’t demote them, treat them as S H I T and then kind of go we’ll give them medals as well.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Couldn’t do it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So that was what the fuss was about. We didn’t. We were not even honoured in Bomber Command.
HB: Yeah. Well, it’s a quarter past one. I’m going to just stop the tape for a minute while —
CM: Ok.
HB: Your daughter goes.
HB: And then I’ll restart it in a —
Other: And if you wish —
[recording paused]
HB: Right. We’re recommencing the interview. We have had cups of tea and a comfort breaks. So we’ve moved on now to around about 1952 at RAF Watton in 192 Squadron.
CM: Central. Central Signals Establishment to use its full name.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s to mask what it actually did. It was a spy squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: But Central Signals Establishment gave it a kind of fancy name but [unclear] believe anything if you like. Not a hundred percent anyway.
HB: That might, that might answer the question. In your logbook you’re flying with Flight Lieutenant Neil.
CM: Yeah. Flight lieutenant. He was, that was on Super Fortresses. In other words B29s.
HB: B29s.
CM: I’m an ex, an ex-Boeing B29 wireless operator.
HB: Yeah. Were they called Washingtons?
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The Washington was an American name for an American aircraft.
HB: Right.
CM: But we called them Washingtons. American but it was also British.
HB: Right.
CM: So there was a Washington [unclear] married them both together.
HB: So in your logbook it says your duty on [pause] in at the end of 1952 was left scanner and right scanner and special operator.
CM: Spec op. That’s what you called spec ops because you did this job I was telling you about. I don’t know whether I’ll be shot at dawn about this but it’s still secret. Top secret. But it was literally finding out the frequencies of the radars and the special operations. We did that. Once we got that we could be able to jam it. To jam it. And once you knew where the frequency was on the end of the spectrum you could put a jam in there and make it impossible to operate.
HB: So who’s, who’s radars were you trying to discover?
CM: Yeah. But I don’t know how you can’t mention that without breaking the Official Secrets.
HB: You won’t break the Official Secrets Act now.
CM: Yeah. As I said in this Fiona found out that nothing’s to be divulged about me personally in the Air Force until 2022. My hundredth birthday. So you make that of what you will.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: But the B29 as I say were a joy to fly after Lincolns. We used to, we used Lincolns to Watton before that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But the B29 was a luxurious aircraft. Do you know that it was separated by a tunnel? There’s the front end of the aircraft right the co-pilot, the captain and the engineer and all this but the back end of the aircraft was nothing else but spec ops. Right.
HB: Right.
CM: And the whole thing was connected like, like two bellows. The front bit was pressurised. There was a tunnel going over the bomb bay to the rear compartment. So to get from the front to the rear they crawled along the tunnel.
HB: Oh right.
CM: It was from here to well just beyond the window there you know.
HB: So you’re talking —
CM: No bigger. No bigger than that wide.
HB: So you’re talking a good twelve fourteen feet then of tunnel.
CM: That’s right. So getting there hurt your knees crawling up and down so people didn’t tend to go forward. Anyway, the two people at the back were about that stationed from the observer point.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s the back end of the tunnel. To see, to be able to see the engines, all the engines, the flaps. Right. And the undercarriage. They couldn’t see them from the front.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Even the engineer. So I was the left scanner and right scanner but the eyes for the engineer who couldn’t keep on crawling back and forwards along the tunnel.
HB: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So important.
HB: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CM: So I always went for the right scanner because I felt that it was the one place to be to keep a good lookout for the —
HB: Right.
CM: And sway up and down left scanner, right scanner. Otherwise it would be, you couldn’t put spec op. You could be spec op, yes. But on transit you were just kind of sat sitting. You used to fly from Watton to Nicosia in Cyprus and then fly from there the next day with all these aerials. There was an armed guard when we landed in Nicosia and the aircraft was never ever left alone. And the next day we would take off with the full crew of course and the trip would be about, we’d be down there eleven hours, twelve hours doing nothing else but scanning all the frequencies. Picking up their radars. You had to be very lucky because they knew when there was spy aircraft around. They’d switch off. But they had to switch on to see where that spy aircraft was. So watching out all ready to go because it only took a few seconds. It was on. You recognised it. You’d press a button. The camera would take a photograph.
HB: Right.
CM: So I scanned the photograph and the recording and did this virtually the same thing as sitting at home and doing this thing with you, because as we were doing that the recording, they’d take it back to Watton and you’d see it properly. You didn’t see it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: They had —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Yeah. Boffins.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Boffins. Whatever they are.
HB: Yeah. The boffins.
CM: Boffins.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So it was an important job and I think I was part of the Cold War as well as the hot war. So that should —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Be a footnote of that thing that I said. Mr McVickers bravely advanced for the, to be a spec op and took part in the Cold War. Which I did.
HB: Well that’s right. I mean, I mean it’s, it’s very obvious from your logbook that —
CM: I’m a lying bastard.
HB: No. Oh, no. No. No. No. Nowhere near. No. You’ve certainly, you’ve certainly done a bit. I mean there’s, there’s a section here that’s quite fascinating because in the middle of doing your spec ops and whatnot you go to the School of Marine Reconnaissance.
CM: No. No. That was when I was posted there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So when you’re posted you’re still kind of doing whatever you were doing beforehand.
HB: Right.
CM: They sometimes overlapped a bit before you went and it’s doing middle of the road.
HB: Yeah.
CM: A flew flights, you know. That’s what it amounts to.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The School of Maritime Reconnaissance now.
HB: Yes.
CM: The Royal Air Force, St Mawgan, Newquay, Cornwall. It should be on top of the whatsthename —
HB: Yeah.
CM: That was, that was a five months course. Now within, after doing four months to start the flying phase of it the CO sent for me and said they were very very short of flyers at 224 Squadron. I said, ‘What do you mean, sir?’ He said, ‘They desperately need a signaller.’ And I said, ‘I really am not the person to pick. I’ve been off the flying for five years. I’ve done no flying on this and I’m on a course. I’m on a [unclear] aircraft radar work at all.’ ‘Nevertheless,’ he said, ‘You can, with all your experience could pick it up with no trouble at all.’ That wasn’t true. When I got to 224 Squadron which was down there if you looked at 224 squadron —
HB: I’ve got 22 —
CM: Not 224.
HB: I’ve got 220.
CM: That’s the one. 220 Squadron.
HB: 220 Squadron.
CM: 220 Squadron.
HB: Yeah. St Eval.
CM: St Eval.
HB: St Eval.
CM: And that’s —
HB: That was on Shackletons.
CM: Well, within, within about a fortnight they realised that I wasn’t trained on the radar and the radar was the most important thing. I wasn’t trained on it. So I thought — I was in a hell of a state. And I told the commanding officer that I’m really not trained for this work. But I’ve just been sent. I’d no idea at all why I was sent there because Cornish the commanding officer said to me, ‘We don’t need you. We don’t need any training chaps, we’re fully, fully committed.’ So I thought what the hell is going on here?
HB: Yeah.
CM: I think, now during the time I was there they sent me to to Mount Batten. Now Mount Batten was the headquarters of Coastal Command. And I was replacing a man who was doing Anson flying. Supposed to be an instructor. A very important instructor flying from station to station and everything. And the man had gone sick for something. Obviously transitory. But when I appeared on the scene he suddenly made a remarkable recovery.
HB: Right.
CM: So I was stuck there at Mount Batten [unclear] let’s get it right here because Mount Batten is the commanding. This is the most important place in Coastal Command. Why don’t you use that to do something for yourself? So I went to see the postings department which posted all the people in Coastal Command. Everything was done from there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I flannelled one of the, with the WAAF officers who were there. I said I’m in a bit of a dilemma here Miss, Ma’am and explained what had happened and everything, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘I think we can probably do something for you. What would you like to do?’ So I said, ‘Well, there’s one Neptune station dealing with nothing else but Neptunes. Lockheed Neptunes.’ I said, ‘This is based in Topcliffe in Yorkshire and would be ideal for me for getting home and everything else and also picking up, because I’d been on a course, picking up on what had left out in being mid-course. ’I said ‘Perfect solution, She said. She said to me ‘Your next course. I’ll put your name down. I’ll put your name down now. So it’s finished. Nothing has happened. You go.’
HB: Right.
CM: So when I went back to the station. St Eval. 220 Squadron. I could say to the people I’m posted. You know. I obviously shouldn’t have been here in the first place. I’ve been reposted. So I was gash again. I was completely gash. And I just spent my time sitting in the mess and making myself a bloody nuisance where ever I went, you know. And soon enough, as soon as the [unclear] came up I got the posting off to go to Kinloss to do the Neptune course.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was on Neptunes for two and a half years. The best aircraft I’ve ever flown in my life.
HB: And what was, what was the Neptune?
CM: Lockheed Neptune. I’ll show you what.
HB: Oh, that was, it was —
CM: Lockheed was the one before the Boeing, well after the Boeing but —
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Because obviously you’d been flying on Shackletons.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And then you go to Neptune.
CM: I’m afraid it will have to wait now for the next time you come actually.
HB: Oh, no, don’t worry about that. I’ve found. Yeah. I’ve found Topcliffe now. Yeah. With Coastal Command.
CM: That’s right. It’s all Coastal Command.
HB: Yes.
CM: That’s a Bomber Command Lincoln. That’s one of the Lincolns. If you look at the SR is the code letters.
HB: Right.
CM: The code letters for 101 Squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: We, I was on B flight there, George [ ] was the co-pilot and the bomb aimer in the astrodome. That’s me. Best photograph I’ve ever had taken. You see they get access to the photograph.
HB: Yeah.
CM: What had happened, there had been an aircraft sent to take photographs of the villages and towns actually but the photographer being a clever little bugger he said it would far better if you had an aircraft superimposed and we happened to be airborne SR 101 Squadron.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Doing bombing at Wainfleet range. So, they called us up, ‘Are you finished there?’ ‘Oh, we’re finish in a few minutes.’ They said, ‘Go through to Cleethorpes and rendezvous with this aircraft that’s taken —'
HB: Oh right.
CM: And that’s how we got it.
HB: That’s how they took the photo.
CM: It’s a good photograph of Cleethorpes. You can see the [unclear]
HB: And that’s the, that’s the Lincoln aircraft. Right. Yeah.
CM: And that’s the Lincoln, that’s right. And that’s me.
HB: And that’s you in the astro.
CM: No matter how, no matter how vague it is that’s me. It’s one of the —
HB: Well, you need, you need to put that in the pile for, to copy. And that one definitely. Right. So, right we’ve got you, got you in Topcliffe and you’ve done rocketry and all those sort of things and then —
CM: Made drops to the weather ships.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Weather trips. All that sort of thing.
HB: So, I mean you were at Topcliffe a good, a good long time weren’t you?
CM: Two and a half years. I did a full tour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: On Neptunes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I was the first. The first They took one, one squadron member from each squadron. At least one. One member and posted them separately just to see if it could be done. Suddenly they found themselves with all these Neptune crews. No pilot could have told us yarns, you know [laughs]
HB: Oh right.
CM: So, so the experiment they took the flight sergeant McVickers, that was me and Flight Sergeant Chalmers and another one called flight sergeant [pause] Oh I can’t remember his name. But [unclear] squadron, just us three people on a course on Neptunes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear]
HB: It’s alright. I’m just, I’m just double checking the battery. Make sure the battery’s still alright. Yeah. Yeah. That, yeah that’s an aspect that we don’t, that’s an aspect we don’t sort of come across, you know. Obviously they’re trying out different ways of putting.
CM: That’s it. Well, you see we’re flying there but tac incident said put that new chap Flight Sergeant McVickers on the —
HB: Yeah.
CM: A cold chill went down my spine. Because I hadn’t had any — I’d had exams. I’d had the exams instructions on the radars. The APS 20 and things like that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I didn’t have the practical. I’d never used it in the air. So I mean, to ask you to sit down and do something from scratch which I didn’t even know how to switch on, you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Anyway, they forgave me for all that and telling me off and I did alright for two and a half years.
HB: So, so Neptunes. The Neptune. I mean, it goes, it’s obviously a well used aircraft.
CM: I’ll show you a photograph.
HB: For that.
CM: You’ve never seen anything like it.
HB: For that.
CM: It was the most luxurious aircraft I’ve ever seen in my life. Neptune. Never. There was one of these commanding officers, ‘Oh you can’t take photographs.’ [pause] Yes. If you come again. I know now what you’re after I’ll have anything ready.
HB: No. No. No. Worry not. Worry not about that. I mean the important thing is getting your, your story.
CM: Operations.
HB: Yeah. Absolutely. So, now, we’ve gone, you’ve gone to Kinloss in [pause] you’ve been on the Shackleton course. That’s in ’56. 1956.
CM: What was that in 1956?
HB: That was, that was you were at Kinloss in ’56.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Doing a course.
CM: Yeah.
HB: A Shackleton course.
CM: Yeah. That would be the Neptune course because there was flying attached to that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: We were flying on those. On Neptunes.
HB: And then [coughs] excuse me. You’ve got [pause] ’56 you’re off to 224 at Gibraltar.
CM: Gibraltar. Yeah. 224 Squadron.
HB: And that’s on Shackletons. Where were, where were you operating then from Gibraltar?
CM: Well, once again I’ve got to show you this. The base of Gibraltar. The base of the rock there’s an open space. And you can imagine the north face, they always shows the north face in Gibraltar so that’s the face facing north. Right in front of the north face of Gibraltar they built a runway. The sea is at one end at Algecirus Bay and then extended in to the rocks so the whole thing, was not enough room for a proper runway but they kept on building it out to sea, out towards Algecirus, Spain. So there was a long enough runway. Our photographs you can see sticking out of the Bay.
HB: Yeah. So, so you were you were obviously looking at your logbook you were flying out of there regularly. Did you cover the Mediterranean and —
CM: That’s right.
HB: Western approaches or —
CM: The Med, did cover the Med but also as you say the Western Mediterranean, but we did all the trips to Malta and Corsica and Sardinia and visiting there. North Africa of course.
HB: Yes.
CM: Is on the right hand side as you go along. So a lot of trips just landing there. Anyway, I did the exercise. Managed to survive. Became quite proficient at the radar but you know I thought that’s not fair for me. I’m cast out of my course.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Which I would have joined the squadron with the crew as to be a signalman. A signalman. It would be good to replace that man as a special job and he made an immediate recovery. The best thing that ever happened to him was me appearing. So I mean, he thought, oh Christ and he recovered.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was a cushy job.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I mean this is what sort of comes through in your logbook is you’ve got this level of consistency going through now.
CM: That’s right. I did.
HB: And, and as, as an air signaller and you were going through here [pause] sorry. What did I just notice? Yeah. That was something caught my eye. In 1957 you were doing communication trials with HM submarine Subtle.
CM: That’s right. I went to one trip to Ballykelly. We went, this chap and my number two and my signals team, we went to this submarine. HMS Subtle [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: And we went for a full day in a submarine. One of the, well one of the most enlightening experiences I’ve ever had.
HB: Yeah. So you actually went in the submarine.
CM: Yes. I’ll tell you something else. I’ve lifted the periscope up. Transferred, transferred into — I’ve watched the submarine sink from, from the periscope area.
HB: Yeah.
CM: They gave us two a really wonderful experience of a submarine. [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: Which was invaluable for, that’s what we were there for. Submarine killers.
HB: Yeah.
CM: In Coastal Command that’s what we did. We looked for submarines and sank them.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we were gaining experience that was something good. And they showed us, the crew showed us the biggest pile of pornographic material, photographs I’ve ever seen in my life. It was about this big. And the [unclear] as well. God, it really embarrassed me.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I never seen. Every angle. Every possible. I thought these people are all sex maniacs. Because we were getting it regular. This was the [laughs]
HB: Yeah. The, the where — what I’m, what I’m what I’m interested in is you started your career in wireless ops and wireless operator in the ‘40s and we’re now in to the late 50s.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Coming up to the 60s.
CM: New equipment is coming up.
HB: So all of that equipment as it comes along I mean, was it every time new equipment you came out you had to go on a training course?
CM: No.
HB: Or did you a lot of on —
CM: No. If there was something radical, something completely different you’d go on a training course, because nobody could do anything about it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the men in the latter part were the men that got the Air Ministry details, put everything down, the whole thing. They’d learned from there. Then they’d teach the people who were going through the courses. That’s right. So the radar, the equipment on the Neptune aircraft is so far advanced that until just recently in the last ten or fifteen years it was still being used in the spy planes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was so accurate. The APS 20 it was called. Air Pulse Search.
HB: Air Pulse Search. Oh right. Yeah.
CM: Ever heard of that? Air Pulse Search.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the other one in the part of the wings, took part of the wings. One had the APS 30, the APS 31 and yet that’s just the system where you could lock on to an aircraft and home on the aircraft. Or anything. A ship.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Very very accurately with the APS 31. So the APS 31 and the APS 20 made perfect for long distance. They were used for aircraft coming in. The APS 20. An aircraft designed by the Americans for their aircraft, the Neptune was the aircraft used by us for long distance search except for the big fighter stations.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Air defence of Great Britain stations. They had their own.
HB: I’m interested in a note here in your logbook, Kit for [pause] we’re talking March 1958. And it’s something I’ve not seen anywhere else. You’ve suddenly got a list of it says, this is the 6th of March — anti-submarine air offensive operations.
CM: That’s right. It’s the whole squadron.
HB: A large [unclear] of those.
CM: The submarines, our submarines had taken the place of enemy submarines.
HB: Right.
CM: But about the German expression. They were enemy submarines. We had to find them. So they’d been given —
HB: Right.
CM: We had a good idea what they were using in submarines but we had to find out. In other words we had taken our submarines as being enemy submarines. We had to find out all about them.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Well, that was really good training.
HB: Yeah. Ah right. That’s explained it then because I was, I was suddenly thinking 1958.
CM: I was stationed at Kinloss then.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Wasn’t I on the, that’s when I was on [ unclear]
HB: No. No. That was you were still at Gibraltar in ’48 err ’58 sorry. ’58.
CM: I was in Gib then.
HB: Yeah. You were in Gibraltar then. That’s what caught my eye was the fact that you got offensive operations but, yeah I understand that now. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s that transition you see that you’ve gone through all of this equipment. It’s, and its, I presume not only has it become more technical.
CM: Complex.
HB: It’s become small.
CM: Complex.
HB: Yeah. Complex. It’s almost become smaller as well.
CM: That’s right.
HB: I would presume.
CM: More adaptable.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The telephone valves, valves suddenly vanished off the face of the earth and first thing in this system, they got the APS 20 which was about this size.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It suddenly became about this size but the big thing was the screen.
HB: Right. So it went from, it went from the size of a coffee table down to —
CM: Well, yeah. In the [unclear] sense.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But, but it was an interesting job. Can you imagine to a schoolboy to be with all this anti-submarine equipment?
HB: Yeah.
CM: The finder. It was very very interesting. And if you’ve got something real on the screen. Something that was enemy, you know. Not so much enemy.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Simulated enemy. You think this person diving the submarine I have got him in my sights offensively [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: With depth charges which we had.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. That, well that —
CM: We’d be doing the job which we knew we’d be employed in doing if a war broke out.
HB: That was your job. That was your job wasn’t it? And then we get to 1960 and you’re back to Kinloss [pause] flying Shackletons again.
CM: Yeah. This would be the Shackleton then would be in January was it?
HB: Yeah. Shackleton 1 it’s got. Yeah. You got people like, you got numerous pilots with you. All sorts of different pilots.
CM: I think that would be on [unclear] it was [unclear] training. Must have been flying the aircraft that trained them.
HB: Right. Right.
CM: Numbers and numbers of the —
HB: Yeah because you’ve got, you’ve got exercises.
CM: That’s right.
HB: A3, A1, A4, A5.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Not exercises for me but exercises for the pilots.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Trained in, that was for the aircraft and I was just crew then.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Did all the dogsbody stuff. All the stuff that —
HB: Yeah. Yeah. The sweeping up. Making the tea.
CM: I did cooking as well.
HB: Cooking.
CM: Oh we had a, you could get airborne for twenty four hours in a Shackleton, you know.
HB: Right.
CM: Twenty four hours. I never did one. I did a twenty two hour trip once but it’s too long. I think a complaint. ‘I’m not having this. You’d better cut my hours down.’
HB: Yeah. I mean there’s some seven and nine and ten hour flights here.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. And then yeah as I say you carry on, you carry on at Kinloss for a good old time again.
CM: So my next posting after that was I did a [unclear] on the ground staff doing, looking after these, they called the a space stage two trainer. Looking at simulating trips in the air but not leaving the ground.
HB: Right.
CM: You could make exercises. You could make them up all the time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So instead of wasting money on petrol you could do the same thing on the ground. Get the same experience. The same equipment and everything. So that was saving money.
HB: So was that, was that sort of classroom based or was that in some sort of simulator?
CM: No. This was actual equipment. You’d sit in these cubicles with the same stuff that you’d have in the aircraft.
HB: Right.
CM: You have use of the headquarters in these cubicles. You’d have other aircraft in these cubicles. And all the equipment.
HB: Yeah. So the cubicle would be set up exactly as if you were in the air.
CM: That’s it. But radar. Of course you couldn’t get a radar signal there so they simulated that. Simulated kind of things coming up.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: But nevertheless you could save a lot of money by just doing it on the ground.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was all handle work. Key work.
HB: Yeah. I can see. I mean I can see in here that I’ve come to that part. Yeah. Of the sort of the sort of staff training and what not. The [pause] yeah because that I mean obviously the booths that you talk about that were set up, you know with the equipment.
CM: That’s right.
HB: They obviously became the forerunners of what we now know in the modern —
CM: Yeah.
HB: Era of the flight simulators.
CM: That’s right. That’s right. But the link trainer I mean, it’s a simulator.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But you can get, you can fly blind with. The thing is you couldn’t get airborne so got to fly blind there except for putting specs on, hoods on people which they did do. But it was too costly and too —
HB: Yeah.
CM: The link trainer fulfilled that role exactly. They couldn’t see anyway, so you had to go by the instruments.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: You see people used to use the instruments and have faith in the instruments you were using. That was good. The link trainer was good for that.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: People who were poor at blind flying became excellent after a few spells on the link trainer.
HB: I have noticed throughout your logbook —
CM: Hmmn?
HB: I’ve noticed throughout your logbook there’s regular little comments signed by senior officers. Wing commanders and such of, “above average,” “high average.” That’s how they’re assessing you.
CM: That’s damning you with faint praise.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So where are we now? We’ve got to — now, yeah this is, this is the thing. 1963.
CM: Posted to Changi.
HB: You’re in — yeah.
CM: Posted to Changi.
HB: 205 Squadron, Changi.
CM: The best posting I ever had.
HB: Was it?
CM: My wife, she was a very good looking lass but by God the people there the commanding officers they wouldn’t, they would all make a beeline for Shirley whatever the occasion was.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Commanding officers, flight commanders, ordinary people in reserve couldn’t get a look in. So, I said to Shirley, ‘Who are you with, darling? The commanding officer or me?’ ‘You darling.’ ‘Good.’
HB: So a little bit of marital strife there [laughs]
CM: Shirley and I had a very good looking daughter if you see photographs of Jane when she was fifteen sixteen.
HB: Yeah.
CM: She was a very good looking girl. Just like her mother.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Well I saw that in that photograph. Yeah. But so that again that’s flying out in the Shackleton Mark 2s and that’s and I presume that’s doing much of the —
CM: Well, you should come across somewhere there at Changi that we had a wall, if you look at my medals. I’ve got a medal which very very few people have had. Fiona’s put it somewhere where you wouldn’t miss it. So Fiona’s put my medals where we’ll never miss them so the chances are I’ll never find them.
HB: Oh no. Worry not about that.
CM: This one’s particularly good.
[pause]
HB: So that would be [pause] so I’m just trying to find it actually in here. Would that be, would that be Borneo? Would that be the Indonesian Confrontation?
CM: Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.
HB: In ’63.
CM: That’s what I would show you if I could find the damned thing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The medal I got for it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Fiona’s, Fiona’s put it in a place —
HB: You’re a bit, you’re a bit far away from the recorder now Kit.
CM: My daughter has put my medals in a place where I can’t miss them. Therefore I know I’ll ever find them.
HB: Don’t worry about them.
CM: Ok.
HB: We’ll sort them out later. I was just trying to find —
CM: Well you’ll notice that those top of the. Something called Hawk Moths.
HB: Hawk Moths.
CM: Hawk Moths. We were fighting in the Indonesian confrontation.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But there’s one thing we weren’t allowed to do Harry. We weren’t allowed to kill them.
HB: Oh right.
CM: It wasn’t a war. It was a confrontation. Once we started killing the bastards it went to a — so what we did they supplied from Sumatra. If you can imagine Sumatra or just in the Malacca Straits. There’s Malaya one side and Indonesia on the other.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Sumatra. But they used to go across from Sumatra to Malaya and do damage. Dropped by parachutes and people and all this business so we knew that we had to get these people as they’re flying, as they’re sheering across the Malay Strait with motor, motor torpedo boats they were, I think. Big boats but vulnerable. We found that the only thing we could frighten them to death with was this. We used to get, we used to have one, it was always at night. They always came across at night. They didn’t come across in daylight. The fighters would have got them.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But they couldn’t do what we could do. We could kill them or make severely inconvenience them by a simple method of using our four engines.
HB: Right.
CM: Four Griffon engines. So much power. One thousand eight hundred and fifty horsepower and the propellers had to be contra rotating to absorb all the power. They had tremendous [unclear] Simple as a Shackleton pull you out of anything, any trouble you were in just open the throttles and get out of it. And what we used to do was to fire off these 1.5 magi flares. There was thirty six of them in banks of, packs of six. Six sixes are thirty six. Six sixes. Now, they used to burn. Burn in the air. Bang when they go up there and when they reached their zenith it would burst. It would burn with a really fantastic light for about thirty five, forty seconds. Not very long. But long enough at thirty five seconds to appear what was going on. And as they went out, bang another one would go off. And this was going out this would lit up again. So you could get maybe a minute of continuous light. A minute’s a long time.
HB: Yes. Yes.
CM: You know, you know the smart gun there, get the radar detector going towards it and just suddenly, they’re not expecting it up it would go. Bright as day. So what we could do then look at the boat going along from Sumatra to the main whatsaname Beach in Malaya.
HB: Malaya.
CM: And you’d fly towards Malaya ourselves so the boat length ways. Not that way but that way. So then —
HB: So you’re coming in on the side of the boat at ninety degrees.
CM: That’s it, but you’d go down to ten feet. Just above the waves and you opened the throttles and go over this boat. Just dead, bend down just a little bit and level off and the whole blast of this right against the, the force of it, the force against the boat and over she’d go, and all the crew as well.
HB: So it would capsize.
CM: Capsized. Yeah. That’s something else. You’ve got a scoop here.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I’ve never heard this mentioned anywhere, that was.
HB: And that, that’s in the —
CM: But you see it there as Hawk Moths.
HB: It’s Hawk Moth operations.
CM: You can see.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I can see Hawk Moth here.
CM: That was down in the Malacca Strait.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And of course we wouldn’t then, we’d find a few people. There’s always people swimming around.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we said after all if it doesn’t kill them they’ll probably get in to the boat anyway. You couldn’t sink these damned things.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But all the stuff had been tipped out.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the whole operation, their operation would be cancelled.
HB: Yeah.
CM: In other words we won the war.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: That’s why it’s important to me to find where Fiona has hidden my medals. So she can, she can find them easily.
HB: Oh we’ll find them. We’ll find them at the end of the interview, Kit. Don’t you worry.
CM: She’s lovely. She’s a lovely lass but by God she doesn’t have the thoroughness of Jane.
HB: Right.
CM: Jane’s very thorough.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. There’s quite a few. Quite a few of these Hawk Moth operations in there.
CM: And of course during my time there we won the war. Sukarno gave in.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: I was chosen to be the photographer at the HMS Bulwark and HMS Centaur, the Ark Royal and the huge fleet out there just out for the Confrontation. They formed two lines of ships. The capital ships, the aircraft carriers and the battleships and destroyers and all the little ships.
HB: Oh right.
CM: That were there. And we flew down through the, we had an avenue of ships and we were taking photographs actually.
HB: You were doing the aerial photos.
CM: I was on the verge of coming back, I never saw those photographs.
HB: Oh right.
CM: But I was chosen as the photographer. Photographer, you see. But that was, so that was the end of the Confrontation. The Indonese gave us a medal and we got another General Service Medal. So that added two medals to my which nobody, not many people —
HB: No.
CM: Certainly not many people in the war, my medal rate, did you see that? The medals. You still can read it.
HB: I saw, I saw the medals on the photographs.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But there’s two short.
HB: Ah right. Yeah. Which is —
CM: The Indonesian one and the what’s the name.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s right, because they show the medals, that’s extra medals because the medals then were the general service medal and the Malaysian medal is on there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And there’s two complete rows. Well I’ve never seen anybody except me that’s got these two complete rows because I carried on after war.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was on operational squadrons after the war. I was in a front line squadron.
HB: I was going to say it’s all operational isn’t it? Yeah.
CM: I was the last in.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s why I wanted to kind of make a special mention of me about the guerrilla boat because I think your word after getting this scoop. These two scoops.
HB: Yes, it does. Yes. That’s great because that takes us through to where are we? 1965.
CM: But I didn’t do any flying though at that.
HB: June ’65 you [pause] I think that was —
CM: I went, I wasn’t —
HB: Sorry. July.
CM: I was a missile, I was a missile controller at Neatishead.
HB: Yeah. Because, because we — yeah. We —
CM: That wouldn’t be in the logbook.
HB: Yeah. So we’ve done —
CM: They don’t put missiles in logbooks.
HB: I think [pause] I’ll just, I’ll just make absolutely sure about this.
CM: So, it’s a full career flying in front line squadrons all the time.
HB: Yes.
CM: So I’m quite proud of that.
HB: Yes. I mean you’re flying [pause] Let me have a look. You’ve got a Hawk Moth operation on the 16th of August 1965. And you’ve certainly flown some hours on that.
CM: Oh yes.
HB: And that —
CM: I flew a lot after the Indonesian conflict to start with.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But we did have a new flight commanding officer at that time and he took a shine to me.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Unlike some of the buggers [laughs]
HB: Yeah. So that’s where, that’s when your actual flying logbook finishes.
CM: That’s right.
HB: But then in ’65 you go — or ’66 sorry.
CM: I left in ’67.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I was on missiles. I was the controller at Neatishead. But unfortunately —
HB: At where?
CM: Neatishead. It’s the biggest, one of the biggest air defence stations.
HB: Neatishead.
CM: Neatishead. N E A T. Neat. I S. Neatis Head. H E A D.
HB: Neatishead.
CM: Neatishead.
HB: And that’s where?
CM: That’s Norfolk, I think.
HB: Norfolk. Right, right.
CM: But unfortunately, on my wife’s instructions I’d put in for a commission when I left whatsaname, I knew I was pretty well thought of, you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I knew that Commanding Officer Harvey was, he loved, he literally, he kept treating my wife at every possible occasion. This came back to me. So I knew I was well in with him but whether he was going to translate that into a good recommendation, so I just applied. Nothing. And Fiona said err my wife Shirley said, ‘Have you still applied?’ So I banged an application in. Then I was posted to Neatishead. The first thing that happened, I was posted there. I had a good long spells of leave before I went there. The commanding officer said to me, a very nice man, he said, ‘I’ve had a recommendation,’ from your whatsaname, commission he said, I can’t possibly send this on unless I know something about you.’ Right. Oh sod off. I didn’t, I was deaf as a bloody post I think. I couldn’t care less about a commission. I was nearing the end of my time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I thought it was just incidental. I knew I would be, I knew it would waltz through it so what happened? I fell in very very much with a girl who was a flight lieutenant. God knows what her name is now but she was the WAAF commander. She sat at the desk opposite me.
HB: Right.
CM: And she and I became quite comfortable.
HB: Yeah.
CM: For want of a better word, she did. It wasn’t long before she asked me about, ‘Can you take me home in your car tonight, my car’s u/s.’ [unclear] I realised, my God at my age of forty four, forty three this bloody woman’s is in love with me.
HB: Oh dear.
CM: This ugly bastard like me, you know. This was so amusing. So I didn’t dare to mention that I was here but being the adjutant because I’d put or commission, but she seemed to know. She said to me now and then, she said to me, ‘Everything’s ok, you know. Everything’s ok.’ So from that I assumed that she was giving the reports to the whatsaname. The commanding officer hardly saw me. She was putting in the reports about me. Right. So I thought I can’t go on here. I’m a bit of a, I’ll have to find an excuse to get out of it because I’m as deaf as a bloody post. I had to go through all the treatments, ‘Sorry Mr McVickers. You’re deaf.’ You know, that real deep deafness was starting so I knew I wouldn’t get through anyway.’ Anyway, to cut a long story short they had this sent to have a big overhaul at Neatishead, all the whole thing. It been going for years and years. The whole thing’s has to be changed. They’re going to be away for, I think it was six weeks two months, it’s going to be overhauled, all the new equipment. Everything kind of renewed. So they sent me, because there’s nobody at the station virtually at Neatishead, there’s the ground bit and there’s the top of the hole. There’s a big hole. They put me with the other spec ops doing this job and sent me to Patrington which was another Air Defence of Great Britain station. But when I got there I found that the situation was different. The man who was in charge of everything there was a [pause] what’s the word, he was less senior than me. So they said, ‘Well, you’ll have to take over.’ So I said, ‘I can’t possibly take over the job. He’s been trained to be an air traffic controller. A missile controller. How the hell can I possibly do it?’ He said, ‘Well you’ll have to go on a course,’ but I said, ‘I can’t have this. The best thing would be for me to pack the whole thing in.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: They said, ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘Well if I haven’t been properly trained I’m going to be taking a job about which I know nothing.’ I was looking after all the missiles on the ground you know. I said, ‘I’m supposed to be a controller from Neatishead.’ Signalling the targets on the whatsaname and phoning them through to Woodhall Spa or [pause] I’ve forgotten the name of the other place actually, near Grimsby. There what I’m looking for. Just to pass the target on to them. Nothing else. I was the controller. Missiles controller.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the people there thought the best thing was I thought my god what’s going to happen suddenly coming home from Neatishead to say, ‘Report to for training for the commission.’ That’s the last thing in the world I wanted at the time.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So I didn’t tell Shirley about that obviously but I’d certainly heard nothing about the commissions and I left the station. You know. Left the, my friend the WAAF. The flight lieutenant. The good looking WAAF, and suddenly I was unemployed. So I thought the best thing I could here is kept mum. I’m out. I’ve got a good job. A good job lined up and I thought far better to get a job at forty five then be an officer at fifty three or fifty four and find out nobody wants you.
HB: Yes.
CM: So I used my loaf and told Shirley what happened. She said, ‘Oh let’s get out. I’ll get a job as well.’ So she became, to cut a long story short, she’d been a photographer at some hotel just up the road apiece and this job came up in the Trading Standards Department saying they were starting a new section. A completely new department called Consumer Affairs. So they set out all the qualifications, sort of. ‘What a pity Shirley. You could have applied for that.’ She said, ‘I fully intend to apply. To apply for it.’ I said, ‘Well but you’ve had no training darling. You’ve got no qualifications except matriculation.’ So she said, ‘I’m going to apply.’ I said, ‘What are you going to put down for qualifications?’ She said, ‘Just that I’ve been a service wife for nineteen years. I’ve been nineteen years.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: So off she went and within a fortnight she got a letter back. She’d passed the first stage. We found out later there was seven hundred and odd applications. And that was the big weeding out.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And Shirley survived that. And I said, ‘If you survived that’s good. You must have looked good on paper.’ ‘Well,’ she said, ‘I did. I did a good job with that’. So the next was personal interviews. They took a long time actually. But after a while I said to Shirley. ‘What’s happened at this interview? What’s going on here?’ She said [pause] So I thought that she knows something that I don’t know.
HB: The tap on the nose. Yeah.
CM: So I’d better press her, I said, ‘For Christ’s sake, I’m your husband,’ you know. Got to get a job to save the family because I was getting two thousand two hundred at that time. ’67. When the national average was seven hundred and fifty.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was getting two thousand.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we would be digging into our capital. And the next thing that happened was another interview with only about twenty or something like that. Shirley came home. I said, ‘What happened?’ She said, ‘Don’t worry about it. I’ll get the job.’ I said, ‘Shirley, darling how could you possibly get the job with all these qualifications and you haven’t got any of them? You’ve just matriculated.’ So I was really worried about it so I didn’t make a mess on the carpet. In other words Matriculation did. She said, ‘I’ll be their first choice and I’ll get the job.’ I said, ‘Well, that’s lovely you assume that but I think you’re being a little bit premature. Anyway, to cut a long story short again four, four, four left, four interviews and she was, Shirley was told and the other, presumably the other three were told that by 6 o’clock tonight one of you would have got the job. He said, ‘We’ll be visiting the one that’s got the job before 6 o’clock tonight.’ Although whatever it was I forget the timing, so I said to Shirley, ‘Aren’t you a bit nervous with it being in the last four?’ She said, ‘No. I’ll get the job.’ So, I said, ‘Why?’ She said, ‘Oh, I’ve been their first choice all every interview I’ve had.’ I said, ‘But how can this happen?’ This job of course with all these qualifications, suddenly it was.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But anyway, at ten to six that night I’m sitting tactfully in our living room err the dining room. No. Spare room.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I could see the front and I saw these two people get out the car. Mr Butler and Mr Charlesworth. One was an ex major and the other was a Swordfish pilot.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I realised then straight away sort of found out what they were that they’d taken a shine to Shirley because I was the sort of a warrant officer aircrew. You know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: This is the sort of men, somebody that they wanted in the background of. I’m not saying that’s true. But I just think that’s what happened.
HB: Yeah. That’s what you thought. Yeah.
CM: One of the things in her favour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I said to Shirley, ‘Shirley, they’re here.’ And she came in and she said, ‘Yes.’ She said go in there and I’ll call you in. I took them into our special room that we had. And I said, Shirley came with me ‘Mr Charlesworth of course, my wife, Shirley.’ ‘We know. We know your wife, Mr McVickers. We’d like to be, if you don’t mind, alone for the, with her for a —’ So I knew straight away that she got the job. She was the first choice just exactly as she’d said.
HB: Yeah. She’d known that all the way through.
CM: It was, yeah she was, first appointment. The only one thing that they said to me, Mr Charlesworth, he said, he said she was an outstanding candidate. That’s was it. She was an outstanding candidate.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, what that means I don’t know but an outstanding candidate gets rid of all the qualifications. Qualification this and qualifications the other. They just took her on her own merits.
HB: Absolutely. Yes.
CM: And Mr Charlesworth err Mr Butler said afterwards, many many years afterwards, she was working there about twenty years she was the obvious choice to do the job. That’s because —
HB: So so while Shirley’s getting her job and you’re —
CM: I was then worked for Anglian Water.
HB: So, so you’d, you’d then finished and you joined —
CM: Anglian Water.
HB: Anglian Water.
CM: I left the civil service. It didn’t make that much difference.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The man that told me that I was a natural, natural at the job which I wasn’t and also one of the employees there told me if you want to get on here don’t kind of send things back for verification. Just pay them anyway. You see, you’re allowed a five percent, a five percent error. He said you’ll never make any [unclear] It was so simple that there’s no errors. No possible errors. Overtake the hard ones by scores. So you never get five percent error.
HB: So what was your actual —
CM: So I held a job, Mr — he did the X, Ys and Zs and I did the As and Bs. It’s a good to contrast. He got very few applications because everything was to be handed to me. And see he did the bits that were difficult for me. He cancelled them all out.
HB: Right. So what exactly was your job.
CM: It was an easy job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: At the top of the tree.
HB: Yeah. What exactly was your job Kit?
CM: Vetting Officer. I decided how much if a person was eligible. For instance if you’d only had half the payments in you only got half the payment. Right. So if the person came in and they’d only got say, fifteen instead of the twenty six minimum application you’d cancel it altogether. Right. But he’d gone straight to the name then, assistant or something. He’d say what had happened. They’d pay him as if he was full, full stamps.
HB: Oh right I see.
CM: He gets full stamps. So I mean no matter how little you had, their people who only had fourteen they’d get for fourteen and they’d get less then the person that had got none, none at all and he get paid the full. So us vetting officers we soon cottoned on to that. This was completely and utterly unfair.
HB: So this is for the water rates.
CM: No. Not water. This was, this was, that was the next job that I came to.
HB: Oh sorry. Sorry. I’ve missed a bit out. So that, so that was in to the civil service.
CM: Yeah. That’s right. The Civil service. And he kept on saying to me, ‘Don’t worry about that.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: After one year you become a, the, become a something officer.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear] officer. It was the next step up. Free. Just get it free. You’ve got that anyways, if you’d done a year.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I thought [unclear]. Here I am stuck in a job I dislike intensely, you know, being an aircrew man all my life and suddenly I’m kind of stuck there. So Shirley said, ‘I’ll find you another job.’ This is my wife. By this time she’s working at you know, she’s the department commander.
HB: Yeah. [unclear] Consumer Affairs.
CM: I’ve got all the certificates that she’d got.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Given to her. Not kind of worked for but given by virtue of her job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And she said, ‘I’ve got a job here for you, working for Anglian Water as a district inspector.’
HB: Oh right.
CM: But what I got with the job wasn’t district inspector. It was area inspector. A rank higher up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: There were people who were experienced. Of course I had no experience but I did as Shirley said when I went to the interview. The first one I thought what the hell? Shirley can do it I can do it. So I was completely not bothered about it.
HB: Yeah
CM: I’ve got a good job anyway I’ve got pensions from the Air Force, I’ve got pensions from water board, I’ve got pensions from this and pensions from that.
HB: Right.
CM: So I did.
HB: It’s alright I’m just double checking the battery.
CM: Anyway, I’m terribly sorry I’ve taken over.
HB: No. No. No.
CM: But then you’re getting something about my background.
HB: No. No. No.
CM: I ‘m lucky. I’m lucky I have been, how lucky I could be.
HB: I’m interested in the length of service you’ve given.
CM: Yeah. I did thirty one operations in the hot war and there were five six, six, seven in the Cold War.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I did in the, in the, in the whatsaname for.
HB: Malaysia.
CM: Over the water to fly in the helicopters to look for where an aircraft had been. [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: I had to map it out and tell them where it was and they’d come out and sort it out.
HB: The Air Sea Rescue. Yeah.
CM: So I had a particular job there and the promise to being an area officer and then another rank higher but I had to have the qualifications. They got to invent the qualifications for me. They said just get the A level in the, we’ll do the, all the chemical experiments for you. I said I’m in the base of a bloody load of corruption here. There was experienced both the civil service, they both told me first thing. They’d be a bit what’s the name. Something officer, there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Field officer.
HB: Right. Yeah.
CM: But I wasn’t long enough, part time.
HB: So you’ve, you’ve gone all the way through the war. You’ve had your RAF career over twenty years.
CM: Twenty six years.
HB: Twenty six years. And you, you’ve gone back into civilian life. What do you think, what do you think the war, that your wartime service with Bomber Command what do you think that gave you for your later life in the RAF and —
CM: Confidence.
HB: Right.
CM: I was a, as far as I was concerned I was not only a wireless op air gunner who did his job but also I knew that I wasn’t, I wasn’t really scared. I told you I was the biggest coward and everything. I wasn’t.
HB: Right.
CM: I was apprehensive. I used to look at the, the aircraft coming in, the place where the aircraft was parked and find that there were so many bombs, if you looked at the front of the aircraft and you could see nothing else but steel all the way around from middle right at the end. Right through this. A huge bomb bay about easily from that to here in a Lancaster.
HB: Yeah. A good eighteen feet. Twenty feet.
CM: Nothing at all. And you’d look at the front and you’d find that, yes you could see it, everyone said it but you wouldn’t believe it. The wings were fitted upwards.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I thought my God it’s so bloody heavy there that the damned wings are lifting up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And of course everyone, we were all aware of that, you know. And how the hell could this possibly get airborne? But as soon as the aircraft had gone on off the runway and got the a airflow over it the wings then start to lift, because if they [unclear] to lift and of course they reassert themselves.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And of course the Lancaster designed from the bomb bay. It was designed as a —
HB: Yeah. So so you attribute your confidence to it.
CM: And also I was a good wireless op. Morse, because I always, I never got any IMIs. IMI means de de da da dit dit — please, ‘please send that again.’ De de da da dit dit.
HB: Right. Yeah. Right. So, of, of your crews.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Because you obviously had you know a number of, you know slight changes during Bomber Command duties.
CM: Well, they didn’t know anything about ops. They didn’t tell them anything in Morse.
HB: No. No.
CM: But as something else to think about doing lectures. When I was doing my t cal, it was teaching I used to think to myself what I should really do is something that’s really interesting. And one of the interesting things about being a wireless operator was emergencies.
HB: Right.
CM: Now, you know that everyone sends SOSs when they were da da da da, so. But it used to be SOS de de dit da da da dit dit dit da da da dit dit dit. So this brilliant bastard, who it was said, ‘This is not distinguishable.’ It’s dash O S sent, sent separately. Why don’t we put it all together and make it one symbol? So what they did SOS and with SOS, SOOS and they put a bar across the whole lot which meant it ran, the whole thing bit of it, instead of it being it dit dit dit da da dit dit dit it became de de de da da dit dit dit dit dit dit da da dit dit dit Which everyone knows as SOS.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So therefore it was adopted.
HB: Oh right.
CM: So we knew we had a system whereby if you had an emergency we used this system to do this. There’s a word called PATASACANDI. PATASACANDI. And if you think about that PAT is Position and Time. PAT CAS Course and Speed. A PATCAS Altitude. And then name. Name of aircraft. Intention of pilot. Right. All of this went out of your mind even and put all the things in and send it as PATACASANDI. In other words —
HB: Right.
CM: Height would be QAH fifteen, fifteen thousand. PAT, PAT in time of course you’d get your watch, plus course and speed. You ran the different course off from the, the whatsaname [unclear] and yaw thing, and speed. I didn’t get the speed but the navigator put down the speed. QTJ my speed is, my air speed is, such and such and such, my ground speed is depending which you were going to use. Then —
HB: Right.
CM: The course. And then there was the altitude. And the other one was the nature. The nature of, nature of, nature of the emergency.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Engine just, engine on fire. Bomb in, bomb in, bomb in bomb bay. Whatever the emergency was. They put that. Then intention of pilot. A PATCASANDI, Intention of Pilot. I at the end — intention of pilot. PATCASANDI. Everyone in the aircraft and the engineer knew that. How to send an emergency message was always in your head.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was easy. You also knew the Q signals which we’d stick to them. The QAS for height. QTI for skip a course, your QEH was [unclear] of the whole thing so you could do it in your head. All the navigator had to say was, Kit.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah.
CM: I was confident that if there was an emergency I could send that.
HB: Did you, did you, when you look back we obviously lost an awful lot of —
CM: Engine Yeah.
HB: Aircrew and, you know people, you know, people didn’t come back. What was your, what was your general feeling? You know. You fly out on an op. You come back and a couple of your planes are missing. What was, what was your feeling about that, Kit?
CM: What we’d do then if you knew an aircraft had been shot down. We’d got sometimes to the 500cc channel, the name of channel 500 KCs which was 500 used by everybody. Maritimes, aircraft all go to the 500cc and you could hear anyone in distress sending his distress position.
HB: Right.
CM: That was the wonderful thing about being a wireless op you could be individual, an aircraft you’d see shot down and we’d know you didn’t have any chance of sending anything.
HB: No.
CM: But others which were badly damaged the wireless operator there frantically trying to get a message through.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because his message and don’t forget you obviously finished off the message, the SOS by pressing his key for twenty seconds which was a long time [buzz] All the time in the world for the ground staff and other people anywhere taking bearings on you so therefore they get a good picture of just exactly where you were in the North Sea.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I feel I’m taking over too much now of this. Way over things that don’t even matter.
HB: Oh no. No. No. These —
CM: Well, it gives a good background to a wireless operator’s job.
HB: Well, that’s, that’s why you’re being interviewed Kit.
CM: Is that right?
HB: Because your wireless operator experience, I mean we’re talking lots of years here has developed. But —
CM: That’s right.
HB: In Bomber, in Bomber Command.
CM: They were going to be shot down.
HB: Yeah. You, you must have experienced that, you know. With friends.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And other crews that you knew.
CM: Oh yeah.
HB: Who didn’t come back.
CM: Yeah. I won’t talk about that.
HB: No.
CM: Distressing experience I just cut it out of my mind.
HB: No. That’s, yeah that’s understandable. I mean it’s, it’s a difficult area because none of us now can even imagine how you would feel and what you would experience.
CM: That’s right but I do wish before you go and I know you’ll be thinking to yourself how can I get away with this [noise] I’ve broken your communicator.
HB: Worry not. I’ve stood it back up.
CM: I wrote, I wrote a letter once, on an old notepad, so I’ll just [pages turning] Look at this. Do you hear what Sherlock would say? You’ve got all these to read when you’ve got time. Not now.
HB: Well, we will. We will on another occasion, I think.
CM: That’s the chap that was flying that Typhoon.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, I won’t, I won’t keep this, but I’ll tell you what it is. It’s a description of a flight I made. Just a flight rather than the flight. The definite article rather than the indefinite article. Ah is indefinite article. The is action.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So this particular flight was in my mind and I wrote it down exactly how it was. But also I’ve mentioned something which I’ve never seen mentioned anywhere before. Are you listening carefully for it Harry? It was well known in Bomber Command that an awful lot of atrocities took place. Have you heard about this?
HB: About the —?
CM: Atrocities towards aircrew.
HB: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
CM: Some of these people who are — they went through a very very harrowing experience. Some of them went mental. Deranged in fact. And they gathered themselves during a raid and tried to collect any bombers. A lot of people, had they baled out over the target and they’d come down in the streets and they, generally speaking there were some people who would [unclear] had very bad time indeed. They were hanged from lampposts. They were kicked to death by the civilians. They were shot by platoon commanders who wouldn’t take them in. They just cut them down with that, you never hear anything about that.
HB: No.
CM: It’s up to Bomber Command did [unclear] that’s why to a lot of people like me know about this. If people knew about the really bad times that they faced if they were ever taken prisoner. If the Luftwaffe were around the area and the Luftwaffe were patrolling they were pretty safe, but if there were no, no Luftwaffe around the SS they couldn’t have cared less. They’d shoot you out of hand.
HB: Yeah.
CM: An awful lot. There’s never been any book published. Any publication about it. People know, know this went on. But if you try to find anything about it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The only way you find out about is by looking up at this report that I put in.
HB: Right.
CM: Which I can show you.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I can’t now because I can’t remember where it is.
HB: Well, yeah.
CM: So I thought this might be the sort of thing that you’d be looking for.
HB: Yeah.
CM: On top of. In addition to. As well as —
HB: Yes. Yes.
CM: Rather than —
HB: I mean, it’s been fascinating listening to you Kit talking about that, you know. Not just, not just the wartime but the whole of, the whole of your RAFs experience. And you know how, I mean you said that you described this period of time when NCOs were being reduced in rank and whatnot.
CM: Well —
HB: But, but how —
CM: They don’t, they, let’s put it this way they didn’t say it was a reduction of rank
HB: No. No. No. No.
CM: They were exactly the same.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But we as aircrew had been warrant officers. We’d been so used to all this you know.
HB: Yeah. Exactly.
CM: But It was just taken over, three stripes, three stars and a crown, the same as a flight sergeant.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And they wouldn’t have it —
HB: Yeah.
CM: The aircrew who served they wouldn’t have it. That’s what buggered that up.
HB: What do you, do you think? Do you, when you look back now for that time during the World War? Do you think the public really understood what you were trying to do?
CM: I didn’t think. No. I don’t think they even thought about the things I’ve been telling you about now. The murders. That’s what they were. They were murders. And the best way that they used to kill and this comes up time and time again. Butchers. Butchers actually decapitate theirs. They set them in a line and one after the butcher would take their heads off. So called ISIS.
HB: But the public. The public back home here.
CM: They never found anything about that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Never let anything be published.
HB: But in general terms though your, your service in Bomber Command.
CM: I tried to be a bomber.
HB: There were lots and lots of you.
CM: Yeah.
HB: As you came to the end of the war the public in this country had a view about the Spitfire boys and, you know the Navy and, and what not. Did you, did you — what did you think the public thought Bomber Command had achieved in the war?
CM: Well, I think that they pretty thought, and don’t forget and I came from a steel town and I used to and meet with a brevet and my stripes, you know. I was some sort of particular to the girls, I was a hero of Bomber Command. Because a lot of that on the radio all you got was, nothing happening in the war. The war years. The war world. But Bomber Command — last night’s operations. This. There. Bombers bombed shipping.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear] what at the end was always the same. Of all, out of all these operations thirty five, forty four, sixty five, ninety seven in one case —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Of our aircraft are missing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, you don’t have to be an intelligent member of the community to say ninety seven. Ninety seven, down the road. That’s from here to —
HB: Yeah.
CM: But there was a town up there. [unclear]
HB: But, so, so in general times you felt that the public were with you.
CM: Oh yes, really. There were also the liberals and the communists and the whatsanames. They wouldn’t be of course.
HB: No.
CM: But we were, as far as we were concerned we were being instructed. We willingly went into Bomber Command because in Bomber Command you bombed civilians. You couldn’t go to war like that.
HB: Yeah. And what, what was your view? Did, or did you even have a view of the government’s position at the end of the war towards Bomber Command?
CM: As regards the treatment of Bomber Command. It was absolutely atrocious. I’ve just explained to you about that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Within, within on year of the war ending we were no longer flight sergeant or warrant officers. We were signaller 2s and signaller 1s and engineer 1s and engineer 2s, and pilots even. Pilot 1 and pilot 2s and pilot 3s and pilot 4s.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because if you had one star you’re a pilot 4. For two stars you’re a pilot 3.
HB: Yeah.
CM: If you had one star you’re a pilot. No. You’re a pilot, a signaller 2 or pilot 2 with one star. No. Three stars was sergeant. Two stars — three stars and a crown was a flight sergeant. Three stars by itself was sergeant. Two stars was corporal. And one star was lance corporal.
HB: Right.
CM: That’s how, that’s how they looked at it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: But the lance corporal couldn’t go.
HB: But the thing.
CM: Lance corporal couldn’t go in the sergeants mess.
HB: No.
CM: So they had to have separate messes and everything else.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So it was a complete and utter — it didn’t happen to the officers like that.
HB: No.
CM: They weren’t even mentioned. But we were treated badly.
HB: Politically, what, what was, what do you think was coming across politically from —
CM: Oh I think that at that time.
HB: Churchill and people like that.
CM: Don’t forget Bomber Command was the only way we could hit the, hit the Germans at all.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Where could we hit? Where could we hit the Germans except in their homelands.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: We destroyed their cities one by one.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Until only one was left.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Dresden. And in the last few days of the war we destroyed that as well.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we did an incalculable addition to the winning of the war because they, whatsanames the people would be dehoused. Had no where to live. The slave labourers were living in terrible conditions in mountains. The whole system was run by slave labour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And that was because of Bomber Command. They literally — the population were bombed out of their homes.
HB: Yeah. Well, Kit I think, I think we’ve come to a natural conclusion.
CM: That’s right. I feel as if I’ve, I feel as if I’ve monopolised the conversation.
HB: It’s not a conversation. It’s your story, Kit and it’s very very important.
CM: So you learned about the way that the way that Bomber Command were treated at the end of the war.
HB: Absolutely.
CM: You’ve seen my logbook. You know I’m a genuine person. You know that I’ve done well for myself.
HB: Yes. You certainly have. Its, it’s ten to three.
CM: Dear God have I been speaking for two or three hours?
HB: We, we started —
CM: You must have —
HB: We started before 1 o’clock.
CM: You must have put it to at least a half an hour of that Harry.
HB: I’m going to terminate the interview now. Thank you very much Kit. I really do appreciate that.
CM: But you will come back.
HB: Yes.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Christopher George McVickers
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMcVickersCG171006, PMcVickersCG1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:08:19 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Description
An account of the resource
Christopher ‘Kit’ McVickers was working at the steelworks before he volunteered for aircrew. He trained as a wireless operator and was posted to 218 Squadron based at Woolfox Lodge. His pilot refused to fly and was replaced with a new pilot. The crew found the incident upsetting because they loved their pilot and worried for him. Kit went on to complete his tour and then after a short time out of the RAF he re-joined. He went on to serve overseas including the Indonesian Confrontation. He flew in various aeroplanes including Lincolns, Shackletons and Lockheed Neptunes. He ended his career as a missile controller at RAF Neatishead and Patrigton.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Gibraltar
Singapore
England--Lincolnshire
England--Rutland
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
1949
1952
1956
1963
101 Squadron
12 Squadron
218 Squadron
90 Squadron
aircrew
B-29
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crash
forced landing
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Binbrook
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Hemswell
RAF Woolfox Lodge
RAF Yatesbury
Shackleton
Stirling
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1030/11402/AMeggettR170428.2.mp3
632576745c050061ad6f2c301018b42f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Meggett, Raymond
R Meggett
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Raymond Meggett. He grew up on a farm near RAF Scampton.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Meggett, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RM: Now, but they are still there, they are still there. We left there in 1960, and when we left in 1960 it was still an outside toilet you know, in to them, to them days. But we’ve as I said my father used to play the accordion and during the war years he belonged the local Methodist Chapel and he was in quite demand around Christmas time for going round carol singing to play the accordion with them doing carol, carol singing. But basically his accordion skills was if he could sing it or hum it, he could play it, he couldn’t read a note of music. He could also play the mouth organ. Unfortunately his ability hasn’t come down the generations [laughter] you know. I had an uncle as well, my father’s brother, he also played the accordion but none of me cousins have inherited any sort of mechanical, mechanical? [laugh] musical, musical skills.
JL: When they had these parties at the house, what type of RAF personnel came?
RM: We don’t know, but I know some of them were pilots, you know, what rank they all were, I don’t think rank particularly came into it, they’d covered a broad spectrum, I do know that some of them were [emphasis] pilots ‘cause me mother, that’s a story, me mother had a sewing machine which we’ve now got and part of the foot broke, and one of the RAF men says I’ll get it repaired and took it back on to camp and got it repaired, and he brought it back to her and put it on and he says it’s a good job I, I returned from the raid last night because this part was in me jacket pocket when I went out on the raid over Scampton – over Germany – so he says if I hadn’t got back you’d have lost the bit of your sewing machine.
[Other] I’ve not heard that one before.
RM: So, so one of them was at least a pilot, but I don’t know what ranks they were, I don’t think that came into it. I think a lot of them my parents only knew them their Christian names. Certainly they played darts, cricket on the paddock outside, anything to get off the camp just as a break in, just to lighten things up a little bit. My recollection obviously only goes back to about 1951 when I started school, but I can remember, cause Lancasters were still about then, I can remember the Lancasters coming in to RAF Scampton at one level and I can remember Lincolns coming in to Hemswell at a higher level. Scampton, Scampton was coming in like that and Lincolns was coming in
JL: At right angles.
RM: Yes, at higher levels to each other, you know so that’s my recollection, then I can remember the Lincolns and Lancasters being phased out and Canberras coming in, but I can remember at Scampton they’ve got what they call now, the flying bowman loop on the A15. And I can remember when I was at school they was extending the main runway at Scampton, because they got these big American, I can’t remember what sort of plane, flying fortresses or something of that nature, coming in and they needed a longer runway, so they put a loop, because the A15 is a dead straight road, and they put a loop in to accommodate a longer runway and I can remember as school children we used to go up there regularly to watch them building this, this road. And which I can vaguely [emphasis] remember at some time during the war when the Canberras came and they had one crash land, and I can remember hearing the explosion when it came down. But on that line during the war, I can remember my parents saying they actually had a bomb dump explode on RAF Scampton and they were saying that all the windows in the cottage rattled when this bomb dump went up, but it wasn’t a plane crashing so it was obviously some fault, something else had gone wrong, for the bomb dump to go up, you know. These are, these are the bits I piece together over the period of time [musical tones] on a different vein but this is probably. All my family was from farming, and on my mother’s side they farmed at Cromwell near Newark and that was in them days was the Great North Road. Nowadays, it’s the A1 but my uncles and me grandfather, their farm was on one side of the Great North Road and a lot of the land was on the other side. And they had to bring cattle in twice a day for milking, so they’d to bring cattle over the Great North Road twice a day and return, so they’d four journeys over the Great North Road, but unfortunately, I think it was in about 1952, they was herding cattle across the road, and one stepped out of line, and my grandfather went with his stick to bring it back in and got hit with a lorry what was filtering past and unfortunately died of his injuries. When we’re talking younger people now saying about herding cattle across what is now the A1, they can’t believe with the traffic that he was herding cattle across ‘cause obviously in them days the Great North Road, was a lot, and particularly just after the war, was a lot less traffic there is now.
JL: With being brought up in such close proximity to, to Scampton and aircraft and aircrews and pilots, did that give you a hankering to join the RAF or, with, were people in the reserved occupations glad to be in reserved occupation or?
RM: I think, I think the reserved occupation a lot of them volunteered and wasn’t accepted, because, of that side of it, no I never had any thoughts of joining the forces, if I’d got, I was fairly close to National Service, ‘cause of me age group and I was an apprentice, which meant then if you’d been apprentice and your national service age was deferred to the age of 21, but I can remember serving my apprenticeship and men was coming back from doing the national service, because the employers had to keep your job open for at least six months after you came back, but no, I’d no real thoughts, it didn’t really come into it because my parents left the farm in 1960 as I left school in 1961 and I, I went into the building trade, served an apprenticeship in joinery and woodworking machines. So I was, went in a different line altogether. But when I look back now, all my relatives on both father’s side and mother’s side was connected with farming in one way or another but when you move down the generations to mine, farming was getting far more mechanised, so you needed less and less people on the farms. When my parents went on to the farm at Brinkhall Cottages at Welton in 1936, the story was, that that farm of 120 acres supported fourteen people. Well nowadays you would need a lot more land than that to support two or three people. And when they went on the land, on the farm up there when they got married, that farm had sheep, cattle, it had everything you know right from crops all , all the way through. And my birth certificate says ‘Father’s Occupation: Farm garthman,’ now that wasn’t pronounced garthman [soft a] it was pronounced gath [hard a] and if you look the meaning up, it, it means one who looks after stock.
JL: Right.
RM: So that’s people look at me birth certificate and say what on earth did your father do? But farm garthman spelt g a r t h m a n but pronounced gath [hard a] it’s one who looks after stock: you know, that was my background.
JL: When we were talking earlier you mentioned that, was it Wing Commander Campbell took over the farm?
RM: Oh, yeah, after the, after the war ended the farm was taken over by Wing Commander Roger Moore.
JL: Roger Moore.
RM: And he’s the one we were saying did the escape committee with the wooden horse.
JL: But you said he wanted to be called Wing Commander
RM: Oh yes, when he came back he, you’ve got bear in mind all the men on the farm hadn’t been in the services at all, so they wasn’t used to using rank, and he set off on the wrong footing with all these men who were it was, a deep knowledge of farming, wanting to be known as Wing Commander Moore. Now, people who hadn’t been in the services, well they says to him, that rank was in the RAF now you’re Mr Moore, because the previous farmer, who’d been Tom Neave, he was a gentleman farmer and gentleman farmers was generally known as Mr, so that he was always Mr Neave so he became Mr Moore but he wanted to use his rank. And there is other farmers around the Lincoln area who still like to call thereselves Wing Commander – I’ll not mention any names [laugh] because they some of them do still exist at Nettleham, which’ll more or less say who I’m talking about [laugh]
JL: Did, I’m just thinking that, you mention that, I’m just thinking about, did your father say anything about a relationship between different ranks and attitudes towards civilians between civilians and RAF people?
RM: I think when the RAF people came on the farm I think all talk of rank, they, they just wanted to put it to one side and they just came you know, as they were, and it was all Christian name terms, you know all ranks when they was on the farm was, all, were as was, there didn’t appear [emphasis] to be any talk of ranks at all. The one I was saying lived next door, who was known as Johnny Campbell, everybody knew him as Johnny Campbell, but it, what rank he actually was, but he was a Lancaster pilot so I’m not sure what rank he would have been, but the rank was never mentioned, he was always Johnny Campbell and same as the man who we got in touch with from Sheffield, Eric. I’ve no idea what rank he was, it was always Eric, and I can’t remember his sur, I’ve got the name of Sumner coming into me mind. Whether that is it, it’s just, you know, I’m not quite sure. There was no men, and it was all free and easy, they played cricket in the grass paddock you know, they’d fresh eggs what from the chickens they’d do a fry up, a meal, and this sort of thing some of the RAF guys would bring what they could get off the camp to help them supplement their diet. The other one was, during the war years when rationing was on, we did reasonably well although this is from stories from my father again, he used, had a twelve bore and he would go out shooting rabbits and he would take them in the village and swap them for coupons for other commodities they couldn’t get as, as well, so it used to work two ways round, but obviously with rabbits being plentiful, so there, I grew up on a diet of rabbit and pigeon [laugh]
JL: With little bits of shot!
RM: Little bits of shot [laugh], that’s correct, quite correct! But my father didn’t shoot for pleasure: he shot for the table. He didn’t, it, it wasn’t sport, and if he went out with his twelve bore he didn’t come home till he got something for the following day’s dinner, that was the way it, the way it was. ‘Cause cartridges, in relation, he didn’t want to waste them. One cartridge had to equate to a dinner – he didn’t have many misses! [laugh]
JL: Are you aware, or we’ve automatically started talking about people who were pilots and aircrew, is there any memory of the fact that some were ground crew, or were they all just people?
RM: They were all just people, other than I do know this Eric, who we, he was, definitely was ground crew, he wasn’t a flier. But I’m not sure of the name of the one over the sewing machine foot, you know I’ve got no name to go with him at all, at all, I never heard that name mentioned at all. But it was, I suppose it gave them a life away from the camp, away from the camp because some of them was living quite stressful lives, you know and it was a way of breaking the, you know, get them off the camp for a few hours, you know ‘cos they didn’t all want to be in the local pub, you know and it was a way of avoiding, avoiding that. But I can remember in the 50s, on the farm, farm roads as you can visualise, are either muddy tracks or stone filled; we always had fairly good roads on the farm, and they was basically stone and ash, and I can remember as a child going with my father on the track and trailer up to Scampton airfield to collect ash from the boiler rooms on Scampton, ‘cause they was pleased to get rid of the ash as the farmers were to get it, to make the roads up. So there were reasonable, reasonable roads. One other memory I’ve got as a child. On the farm, there was remains of an old Morgan three-wheeler car what we used to play in as a child, now in today’s values – you know, I must admit I’ve made enquiries to see if it was still there, and it’s long since gone. But Roger Moore, Wing Commander Moore, who took the farm, I gathered he was a Bournemouth man and I can remember in the early fifties he would go and visit his mother and he had a pre-war BSA motorcycle and he used to go from Welton all the way down to Bournemouth on this very primitive motor bike to visit his, visit his relatives. I can remember that clearly the, but it must have been a long journey down to Bournemouth with the roads as they were then. No M1 or M6 or whatever, mind you, you wouldn’t have wanted a vehicle like that on the motorway being a nuisance. Now, as I say there’s no mention of rank other than the man who bought the farm, you know, I can’t remember anything else on it.
JL: Right.
RM: The only one thing I’ve got which you know, I don’t really don’t know what to do with, we’ve got a full twelve seat, twelve piece tea service and it was my mother and father’s wedding present from the gentleman farmer when they was first married and went on to it and it’s all there, all complete. Sentiment hangs on to it but the other side of me says well it’s no use to you now, you know, but that’s the one memory I’ve got and I’ve also got a clock which my mother treasured and it was, it came to her from her grandfather who died in 1930,31 I believe, when my mother was 14 or 15, she’d help look after them and she was given this clock as a memento, and I can always remember it being in the house as a child and she always used to tell the story, that at that time there was only me mother and her elder brother out of the family of five or six late ones, who was old enough to do things for this grandfather. Me uncle used to look after his garden a bit, and me mother used to do housework and bit of shopping. So when me grandfather died, mother was given the clock and me uncle was given the spade [laugh] which he was most dischuffed about, he said, he says it reminds me of work! [laugh] and he used to tell this story up till he died a few years ago, didn’t he. [laugh]
JL: We were talking earlier about how my mother’s three years in the navy, was sucha, a big part she talks about it a lot. Did your father talk about the war years very much in later life?
RM: Not a lot, not a lot, he did a bit, he used to talk about, he knew a few words of Polish, you know. Slivovic being plum, and that, which he’s taught me, but I’m not sure where the Polish connection came. Whether some of these RAF people was Polish or whether there was some other Polish people came to work on the farm at harvest times, I’m not sure. I understand some of these RAF men used to help a bit with the harvest, when it was, you’ve got bear in mind it was all back binders and stooks and pitchforks, farming in them days, but I don’t know where the Polish connection come in, at all. So I assume some of them must have been RAF men ‘cause I wouldn’t have thought there’d have been Polish civilians, at that time unless they was Polish refugees, I’m not sure, I’m not sure. I do know in the grass fields, at the paddock at the side of the house they’d some what would have been Anderson shelters, these little round ones and they was all used as chicken coops so where they’d come from, I presume they was put there ‘cause obviously they would expect Scampton to have been a target for the bombing. There is, which I am sure was well documented, there is at Scampton village there is the graves of two crews of RA, of German planes what were shot down. My father, we used to talk about these planes being shot down at Hackthorne Lane End. Now Hackthorne Lane End now doesn’t exist ‘cause it’s part of the A15 with the loop road so presumably they’d with these planes was having a go [musical notes] at Scampton and the defences brought them down but about these two crews the graves are at Scampton airfield, er not airfield, churchyard which are there to this day, and all named. But he used to talk about that ‘cause obviously that would have been a quite a thing at the, at the time. But I do know mother and dad used to talk about the farmhouse house itself. When Tom Neave had the bridge parties and you’d get the local, local vicar, the local dignitaries with it, and mother and father used to help out, doing the cook, because my mother was quite a good cook in them days, and what they used to do, they used to go and prepare it you know, and help get the food ready and what they used to do, while the main party was having their meal, you know, the gentle, Tom Neave used to say to my mother and father, whatever we’re preparing for the party if there were say ten in the party and were six of you, prepare for sixteen and you’re having the same . So they used to clear up then they used to go and sit down and whatever they’d had for the main party food, they had exactly the same, they used to prepare enough for them as well. Although they didn’t sit in on at the bridge party, they would sit probably at the kitchen or the, and they would have their meal as well. So it was, the one thing I’ve got from, when I was born, apparently the Mr Tom Neave, the farmer, pressed a, sovereign I believe it was, into my hand as a baby, which I’ve still got. But it, I don’t know if there’s any value in it ‘cause it’s got a young [emphasis] Victoria head on it with a, with a fault on it. So I’ve often thought I ought really ought to have a look at that again. It’s quite worn, dated I think 1848. But that’s my relection, recollections of Mr Neave. So, I hope that’s of some interest.
JL: That’s excellent, yes. That’s really good. Has he missed anything out?
RM: I’ve added a bit in.
[Other] He’s added a few bits that I didn’t know about, so [laugh]. I think that’s about it.
JL: We were talking also, you mentioned, we were talking briefly about Hull, weren’t we.
RM: Yes.
JL: You know the guy, a guy who,
RM: I’ve got a friend, ‘cause obviously my hobby, passion in life is vintage and classic motor cycles and I’ve, there’s a friend in town who’ll be about 79 or so now, he always talked about he was born and brought up at Hull, was a refugee or
[Other]: Evacuee
RM: Yup.
[Other]: Evacuee.
RM: Evacuee from Hull and he was put on a farm at Carlton-le-Moorland and he always tells, so whether a few other farms from that area you know, put up evacuees from Hull I don’t know. And the other one is which I mentioned, is the village or settlement of what is now North Greetwell which is on the Wragby road the A158 just out of Lincoln, the local people, us included, always knew it as tin town because during the war they put up a lot of these pre-fabricated buildings, and housed a lot of evacuee, I don’t know if they be children or complete families, but most of these have now gone now, but it is, everybody now knows it as North Greetwell, but all the older locals it’s tin town and it will be for ever I think.
JL: Yeah. That’s it, that’s absolutely brilliant.
RM: That’s basically my recollections, I hope it’s of some interest
JL: That’s absolutely brilliant. It’s great, not too traumatic I hope
RM: It dawned on me that over the sewing machine while I was talking.
[Other] I’ve never heard that one before.
JL: Now then, If you think of something else, I’m going to have to switch this back on again [laugh], but I’ll switch it off for now.
RM: No, I think that’s about covered it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Raymond Meggett
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jeremy Lodge
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMeggettR170428
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:33:31 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Hull
England--Yorkshire
Description
An account of the resource
Raymond Meggett grew up on a farm in Lincolnshire near Scampton, where RAF personnel stayed during the war. His parents told him about some of these men, and sometimes kept in touch with them. He recalls tales of the other farmers, civilian and RAF. He remembers seeing aircraft flying over and accompanied his father around the area. Raymond’s family farmed in the area for generations; he became a joiner.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
evacuation
final resting place
Lancaster
Lincoln
RAF Scampton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1036/11408/AMorganVT170908.2.mp3
12d992549bbfd624a2cc3b28fbdb104e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Morgan, Vernon Thomas
V T Morgan
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Vernon Thoas Morgan (1921 - 2020, 1145635 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer and pilot with 44 and 619 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Morgan, VT
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
This interview is being held by Claire Monk with Vernon Morgan on Friday the 7th September 2017 on behalf of the International Bomber Command.
CM: Right, so, when we spoke earlier you mentioned that you were born and you grew up in Cardiff.
VM: That’s right.
CM: [Pause] And you are an only child.
VW: I am.
CM: What can you tell me about that time?
VM: Well it’s interesting, only child, but next door to me, next door but one, I had a family that had three sons and a daughter and we more or less lived with each other; as far as I’m concerned they were nearly brothers and sisters really. So I was never lonely. I went to school in Cardiff, I went to primary school and an elementary school and then I went to Cathays High School, where I did all the normal things, got my matriculation certificate and then started to look for a job. Sat the civil service exam, very fortunate, nineteen thousand sat it and one thousand were successful, and I passed, and I was in these days you didn’t have any choice about argy-bargy you were told where to go [emphasis]. So I was told to go to RA ROF, Royal Ordnance Factory, Hereford to start work, and off I went. Went into digs there, stayed in somebody’s house and I went in the accounts department of the Royal Ordnance Factory. And that’s where I stayed until the war came. And then I decided to volunteer before I was called up, and I decided I wanted to go in the air force. I had horrible feelings about ground warfare in the army which I didn’t fancy and I didn’t like the sea, so I said well the alternative’s the air force so I joined up. And the only thing they could tell me I could do was a wireless operator. So I said so be it. So I went into the RAF, I went into Blackpool on er August Bank Holiday Monday I was called up there, and in whatever date that was, forgive me [rustle of paper] I’ll look. It was in August 1941 and I went to Blackpool and I started on a wireless operators course and eventually I decided that I’d volunteer for aircrew while I was there. Big thing that because you became elite [emphasis] then, and you got a white flash in your cap and I was accepted, and that started my aircrew training. Um, which I eventually was moved from Blackpool down to the aircrew recruiting centre in Lloyds in London, Lords cricket ground which is where you started all everything to do with aircrew. And that was beginning of my travelling to be a pilot and I went to I don’t know what at Blackpool, I did a lot of medicals, got eyesight and heart and everything, you know you had to make sure you were hundred per cent fit and then I went to a little aerodrome called Booker where I flew a Tiger Moth. And after about eight hours I went solo and they said right that’s it, you’re accepted now for full pilot training. So that was it, and I then waited about a bit, and [rustles of paper] checking on my on my log book to make sure I get my sequences right otherwise I’ll get everything wrong. Yes, for some reason then, I think I told you earlier, I went to RAF Hemswell, for four months and then I went to RAF Cottesmore. What I did there I’ve no idea [emphasis] and I couldn’t find out, so I was, I presume I had some ground training, cause they you did everything. You did meteorology, principles of flying and all sorts of things. I assume I did things like that and then that’s when I went to Booker for my aircrew check to see I was suitable and I was, and then I was waiting for a posting. And you got moved around quite a bit. I went to Brighton, in a hotel. Erm, my first bit of the war happened there [emphasis] because we were doing some again some class in a building on the front which they’d obviously commandeered and we were sitting there doing whatever it is we were doing [chuckle] and a German fighter came across and strafed us so we all dived down on the floor [laugh] underneath the sort of desk and I thought oh yeah, there is a war on you know, and my first sort of indication and then eventually in February ’43 I got on a transport ship; hell on earth I’d call that, um it you know you were in hammocks, there weren’t enough hammocks to go round, always a scramble to find a hammock to sleep on. You were slept down in the bowels of the ship, long tables and the hammocks were strung up over it in the morning after we had to clear up the sick: lots of people were sick and and you had about you know twenty people or so on this table and one of them had to go and get the food from the galley so you trotted off, ship rocking, you trying to carry bowls of soup and things slopping about, and bring it down and serve the people on the table. It was pretty grim, and you know everything was overcrowded, very uncomfortable and you were told always to be ready to put life jackets on in case you were attacked so on. So, I wouldn’t call it a very pleasurable journey and eventually we arrived at Durban. And there we were greeted by cars hooting, people waving and the lady in white who was a traditional well known thing at Durban, who sang a welcome to you as you arrived. And er so we eventually disembarked and went to a camp – Clarewood Camp - where we were absolutely delighted. We could buy bananas and pears and oranges and apples and things we’d never seen at home and going into Durban and having bars of chocolate and going to the canteens there and having bacon and eggs and things, cost us about a shilling I think. So this was real real luxury life there. And then was posted to a little place called Nigel where we carried on with our flying training on Tiger Moths. And after we had finished all the trying flying training there on the Moths, um we went to another little drome called Potchefstroom [background noise] where we finished our flying and then we were posted then to 21 Air School at Kimberley. And this was a place where we were going to do all our flying and get our wings. And er I flew Oxfords there and you had a ‘cope’ sort of training with you. I had someone called Dick Teager who became the best man at my wedding actually and we trained together in the Oxford. Er, did usual things learning all about the flying and night flying and instrument flying, lots of time on the link trainer and er were there any adventures there? Well, there was one, [emphasis] yes, my co-pilot Dick Teager and I were on a navigation exercise and I was flying and he was doing the navigating, and after a little while there was a bang [emphasis] and the aircraft started to shudder. I ‘What the hell’s that?’ ‘Oh no I don’t know,’ he said. ‘Well something’s wrong,’ I said, ‘the aircraft is is shuddering,’ I said. ‘Go and see, find anything that’s loose or missing or something.’ I said. We had no idea really what the hell was going on. So he got up and he sort of crawled back in the aeroplane. He said ‘I can’t see anything wrong’ ‘I don’t like this I think we’d better go back and land,’ you see. I said then, and then suddenly there was another BANG! [emphasis] and I thought oh gawd and the aircraft was quiet and steady and I said ‘That’s very odd’ so I said ‘Well, I can’t see there’s any problem, it’s still flying all right.’ I tried the controls and I said ‘I think we’ll finish the exercise’ so he said ‘Yes okay,’ so off we went and did our exercise and then came back and landed at Kimberley and as we pulled up on to the you know, tarmac there to park the aircraft, one of the ground said [Shout] ‘What’s wrong with your left entry, your port engine there?’ [shout] I said ‘What do you mean?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘you’ve only got half a propeller!’ and he, I looked out and sure enough the propeller had two ends knocked off and I said ‘Well, I don’t understand that.’ Then I said, ‘Well what happened is one end came off that unbalanced things, set up a pressure, a tension and the other end came off to balance it and all was well.’ So then I had to appear before, he and I had to appear before the commanding officer. ‘Where have you been low flying?’ I said, ‘We haven’t been low.’ ‘Well how did you lose your propeller?’ I said ‘Look I don’t know.’ But, well he took a bit of persuading that we hadn’t done something wrong, anyway that was the one bit of excitement and [banging] yeah, the flying went alright we were you know spent a good time there, went to the cinema in the camp every Saturday and you know I said it was quite a good life really. We were. there was no sign of war there of course. Er we met girls in Kimberley, actually they were friends of people back at England who they told us to go and see them. So we went, and we went to the family and had meals with them and went out with them, and I said it was quite a good life and then eventually the day came when I got my wings, you know and Brigadier Baston, the commanding officer, pinned the wings on my chest and that was it. There was a little bit of argy-bargy about well what you do now and I said ‘Well, I presume I am going to go home now’ cause I said I had my eye on, I wanted to get back home, I had a girl waiting for me, and they said ‘Well you’ve done very well on navigating and you’ve done very well on instrument flying we think we could post you down to Capetown and you can become a navigator instructor.’ ‘Oh I don’t want to do that’ I said, I this wasn’t me being bold about wanting to fight the Germans, it was me just wanted to get back to England to see Cynthia. So ‘Oh no I don’t want that,’ well, ‘Also we could give you a posting to go to Bomber Command. To Coastal Command.’ ‘Oh no, I don’t want to do any of that, I want to get back to Britain, I want to go onto bombers over there you see.’ Anyway eventually after a lot of palaver, they agreed that I’d be posted back on bombers to England. So then again we had to wait and er for transport and eventually we got on a ship the Orontes I think it was called [cough] no this we did, that was our, we got on a ship that was a, a Polish sort of ship. It wasn’t a very nice ship and we went through the Suez Canal and we dropped off at Suez. We had to stay there for a while to get another ship. Suez was a funny area it was a sort of a desert and I can remember we had to wee in big funnels in the sand and there were warnings that er ‘Do not buy lemonade from local pedlars,’ because the lemonade is not very good it’s made up of urine and Nile water [laugh]. So anyway, we had and after that we got another boat, the Orontes and were on our way back home. And now this is a funny thing too. I can’t remember what port we arrived at whether it was Liverpool or Southampton, it was just a place that we were going to get off the boat and back home and we then we went to Harrogate which was a sort of holding centre, stayed in a hotel there and then I was posted to Perth which was an elementary flying training school with Tiger Moths. I don’t know going down a grade now, back on Tiger Moths, the idea was getting us back up familiarised with this country because over in South Africa you had big wide open spaces and if you saw a town you knew what is was ‘cause there wasn’t another one for hundreds of miles over here of course it was a conglomerate of things and you had to sort of start getting used to the different terrain and the fact that you had a problem knowing where you were so we, we spent some time at Perth and er after that I went to a senior NCO’s school at Whitley Bay. Now again I find it very difficult to know exactly and I can’t find out, I’ve looked it up on the internet, but you don’t get much joy, it was known as the commando course, and all I can remember doing there was scaling a cliff in Whitley Bay! [laugh] So er this was at the time of er the invasion of Europe in April ‘44 and after that, we went back to Harrogate. It then turned out that they didn’t know what to do with us; they had too many pilots and not enough aeroplanes. So we were having to get channelled into doing useful things. A colleague of mine went and drove engines, locomotives on shunting duties erm they couldn’t, they said we haven’t got any spaces on squadrons for you we can’t don’t know what to do so I was posted to another elementary flying school at Derby and from there they sent me out to a little aerodrome called Abbotts Bromley which was a subsidiary of Derby and I think I became the commanding officer there, because I was, it was a little outpost of Derby and there were about a dozen trainee pilots there just starting, and me. And, I had to, we had one aeroplane, Tiger Moth there and the instructors used to fly over from Derby every day and do their training with the lads. This was fine. I, it was a little aerodrome, I was in charge there, one of the trainees brought me a cup of tea in the morning, There was a local woman who acted as a chef there and she cooked me my meals in my own private little room. I thought this is the life, I hope they’ll forget my where I am and lose my records, I could stay here for the rest of the war! So I stayed there and it was quite good, you know, I used to have a little duty in the morning I just had to put out the T to show the way the wind was blowing, although why you did that when they had a wind sock and you could see which way the wind was blowing I don’t know. I kept my hand in flying and the instructors occasionally said ‘Come on, we better do some advanced flying, keep you in trim,’ so they came up with me and we did aerobatics and things and it was very good I, I er had quite a nice time there and erm I did something unorthodox there in the sense I would say well you know I’d like a weekend down in Cardiff to see my parents, so that’s all right you can fly down there in the Tiger Moth, can I? So anyway I [laugh] got in the Tiger Moth one Friday and set off for Cardiff you see. I had to land at Worcester and get refuelled, then I went off towards Cardiff and the weather came quite bad and I thought ‘Oh my gosh’ and then as I got up near Cardiff or up by Newport I could see all these barrage balloons with their cables I thought gawd I need to be careful don’t go too near cos I’m sure this is an unorthodox flight that I shouldn’t be doing, I’ll be in trouble, So anyway I managed to avoid the barrage balloons and I got to Cardiff airport and course it had one runway and it was right across wind and there was quite a strong wind as I can’t land on that, cross wind on a runway I’m only used to landing into wind on grass I don’t think I like that at all. So I flew over I flew into wind cross, low down on across towards the grass and waggled my wings you see, to say this is what I want to do you see. A red very light came on from the control tower, ‘Oh god,’ I thought ‘what’s that for?’ Does that mean that the ground is too rough or there’s potholes, or something and I can’t land there? I don’t know where else to go. [laugh] I won’t have enough fuel to go anywhere else apart from which, you didn’t have navigation aids I don’t know where else there is, so I’ve gotta land here. Well I flew round and I flew down and I picked a different spot fly into wind and waggle my wings as this is what I’ve gotta do: another red very light. ‘Oh god,’ so I thought, ‘Well, I’ve got to land here.’ So I turned around and did another circuit, came in and I got quite close down, see if I could see potholes or anything, I could, well I’ve gotta land I’ve got no alternative, I just hope it’s all right [laugh]. So I landed on the grass into wind everything okay, didn’t tip over, oh thank goodness for that, so I taxied round, back up to the tarmac in front of the control tower and switched off. And got my flying kit off and up into the control tower where there was a sergeant sitting there smoking his cigarette and as I went in, he said ‘Hello mate’ [bang]. I said ‘Hello,’ I said, ‘what was all that fuss about; what did you fire a red very at me for?’ ‘Oh I was just greeting you,’ he said. ‘What do you mean, greeting me?’ I said. ‘You fired a red very I was trying to say I want to land on the grass and you were indicating it was dangerous.’ ‘Oh no,’ he said, ‘No I was just greeting.’ ‘Well,’ I said ‘why didn’t you fire a bloody green?’ ‘Oh we’ve run out of those!’ he said. [laugh] So anyway that was all right, So anyway I had a nice weekend with my parents and flew back to Abbotts Bromley. Well, that wasn’t the end then, I then got shunted back to Harrogate, this is where you got while they tried to sort out what to do with you. And then they decided they’d post me to a place called RAF Madley which was near Hereford, that’s all right, as it was near my fiancé lived Hereford so thought that’s okay. So I went about and there they were flying Proctors training wireless operators and I was going to be a stooge pilot going up and flying wireless operators while they were doing whatever they do and so that was my assignation there. So I got onto a Proctor and I had my familiarisation flight to make sure I knew what to do with one and that was okay, so I then reported; I cycled away from Madley into Hereford, saw Cynthia and that was fine. And then I took my first official flight as a Proctor pilot with my group of wireless ops and their instructor, and the instructor was saying to me, because obviously they do navigation fixes and things, ‘Fly on such and such a course,’ you see. Yes, okay I did that, and then they say, ‘Now change course and fly somewhere.’ So I did that. And then they said, ‘Now do something else,’ so I flew that, did that, and then after a while they said, ‘Right, well the exercise is finished now, you can go back to the drome,’ see. I looked out of the window - where the hell am I? Cause I said I’d been so busy concentrating this is my first flight as pilot with these wireless ops on flying where they wanted me on the direction I was concentrating on that I hadn’t not looking where the hell I was going and look out the window and thought I I hadn’t any idea where the hell I am. And of course you looked down and it was just a conglomeration of towns and railway lines and you hadn’t a clue where you were, oh gawd, so well if I fly west, I’ll hit the coast and then I can see where I am, so I did that, and yes oh yes! I can see now and I’ve an idea now what I and I knew what course I had to fly to get back to Madley, which I did. Got back rather late, with a very irate duty pilot in the caravan, you know, that has to see you home, was being delayed going to lunch and very annoyed, so I landed there and I wasn’t very popular. I didn’t say I’d got lost, but, ‘What the hell are you so late,’ ‘Well,’ I said ‘These exercises take time,’ anyway that was my adventure at Madley, so I was still flying there so thought this is all right too I’m having a good old war, this is not too bad what can happen next? A posting came in. You’re going to St. Athan. St. Athan, near Cardiff, oh that’s not bad, that’s near home too, my parents are there I could live out I thought this is turning quite good this war, you know. Not as bad as I thought it would be. And er, it was a technical school and I thought what am I going there for? So I got to St. Athan and they said ‘You’re on a flight engineer’s course.’ ‘I’m on a what?’ ‘A flight engineer’s course.’ I said ‘What what am I on that for?’ ‘Well we’re short of flight engineers and we may be able to get you to a squadron as a flight engineer.’ ‘I don’t want to go to a squadron I’m a pilot!’ [emphasis] ‘Oh yeah, well you’ll still be a pilot.’ ‘Well,’ I said, ‘this all sounds a bit fishy to me.’ Anyway I had no alternative. I then did a course on the Merlin engine. Now I’m the least technical minded person you can imagine. And yes, theoretically, I learnt about the Merlin engine and I passed whatever it was there and they said ‘Right that’s it then.’ And er. ‘We’ll send you off and we hope you can get to a squadron.’ ‘Oh, all right.’ I then went to this place RAF Balderton. Now, I have no idea what I did there. I was there from er 29th of December 1944 to the 4th of January. Not a very long period, I have no idea what I did there. I can’t remember. All I can remember is it was perishing cold [emphasis]. Absolutely freezing and we had one of these stoves in the Nissen hut, burning wood. So all I all I slept in my flying clothes because it was so cold, and we found some old chairs and broke ‘em up and burnt them to keep warm that’s all I remember about Balderton. I don’t know why [emphasis] I was there, what [emphasis] I did there or anything else. And the next thing I was posted to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Swinderby. Oh, at last we’re getting somewhere near some flying now. There, I was introduced to a Lancaster and I did some training on a Lanc. I did circuits and bumps and got used to flying a Lanc, you see, and again [emphasis] I cannot remember exactly how I got crewed up. I, I’m not even sure exactly where it happened. I know that normally what happened with crewing is that was they crewed up everyone nearly except the flight engineer who joined at the last minute, I don’t know why exactly. But, anyway, I must have joined up and I went into a crew, an interesting crew because there was no Englishman in it. There was me a Welshman, there was a Dane, a Swede, and Canadians and that was my cosmopolitan crew you see. Okay, so be it. So anyway we finished all our training at Swinderby and at last, we got posted to a squadron which er was to Strubby where it was, or was it? [background noises] 619 Squadron at Strubby. And they didn’t know quite what to make of me. ‘Well, you’re down to fly as a flight engineer: you’re a pilot.’ I said ‘Yes, I am a pilot. And I’m not a flight engineer,’ I said ‘First of all I haven’t got a flight engineer badge, Secondly I haven’t got a flight engineer log book, I’ve only got a pilot’s log book.’ ‘Well, of course, you’re a pilot. You’ve got to have a pilot slot, you’ll be a second pilot. And doing flight engineer duties, but you’re a second pilot, that’s what you are.’ And the everybody wanted me to be their flight engineer cause they had a second pilot who could fly the bloody thing. [laugh] So anyway it was quite interesting I had to keep on insisting I was a pilot I’m not a flight engineer, I’m a pilot doing some flight engineer duties you see. And um so that’s how it was. So I then flew with 619 Squadron, and erm and that’s where I did my op, um well, I no there were, well, backtrack a little bit. While I was at Swinderby we got sent on what was called Operation Sweepstake on two nights, which was going flying to Strasburg. Now this is all a bit vague in my memory but I subsequently found that what Operation Sweepstake was was a diversionary flight to deceive the Germans that that’s where the raid was gonna be and they diverted fighters to you, you see. I thought, oh I see, so we’re the bait are we, we’re the ones that attracted the fighters while the others do their raid you see. So that was twice and I did say to the CO I said, ‘Is that counted as an operation?’ ‘Well yeah,’ he said, ‘it was over enemy territory [loud laugh] and you were being shot at’ and so on, so he said ‘I think [emphasis] it’s an operation but it may be a half [emphasis] an op.’ So I did two of those so I don’t know whether they count as two ops or one op, but anyway that’s it. And er then my first op at um at Strubby was a daylight raid over Germany, we were bombing some troop concentrations and this was quite a big operation, you know. We joined up with the Americans flew over there and um [background noise] we got over the target, you know, bomb aimer said right you know, gave his instructions and I looked out of the window and I could see these bombs coming down, like hail stones, and I thought bloomin’ ‘eck [loud laugh] never mind about flying straight and level, what about these bloody bombs, let’s dodge those, I said and then I suddenly thought well at night you won’t see those but I wonder how many people got hit by bombs coming down from their plane. I said there were these things coming down like hail stones round you, so er anyway that we did the bombing operations and came back home, and then I got posted to 44 Squadron which was at, erm, Spilsby. Now, and then, after that I got posted to Mepal, which was also 44 Squadron, and then finally to Mildenhall. Now, while we were at Spilsby and Mepal we did these trips Exodus, where we brought back prisoners of war from Germany. We also did some engine ferrying out to Italy, to Bari, and we also brought back troops from the Far East to bring them home, so we were doing those sort of jobs. I was getting in, I was flying by then, with the commanding officer of 44 Squadron, Wing Commander Birch and he had chosen me, I know why ‘cause he said ‘Well I’ve got you, because you’re a pilot,’ and he said ‘I can have a nap while you can fly the bloody thing,’ so I said, okay, that’s okay with me as long as he said I recognise you’re a pilot not a flight engineer, I said ‘No, if you’re banking on me being very good if something goes wrong with the engine,’ I said, ‘I’m useless, I’m hopeless technically,’ I said. ‘It’s just a ploy to get me into a squadron,’ I said. ‘That’s all right, but I want you in my crew,’ and he said, ‘we’re designated to go into Tiger Force,’ which was going out to the Far East and he said we we’ll be switching to Lincolns, and he said ‘that has two pilots anyway’ so he said I’m going to have you with me.’ So I said ‘oh that suits me that’s fine thank you.’ So we did these trips flying prisoners of war, bringing troops back, flying engines out to Italy and all these other jobs and er we kept doing that and then I got we got moved to Mildenhall and there we were going to switch to Lincolns ready for Tiger Force to go out to the Far East which I must admit I wasn’t looking forward to, and then, they dropped the atom bomb, and it was all over. And I thought [bang] thank god for that, so I didn’t really have any more then I was just left at Mildenhall, did the odd flight in the Lincoln, the odd flight in the Lancaster, all the year, the crew that I had at before the end of the European war disappeared, the Canadians all went, and the Dane, well they all went back home and I had a hotch potch of different crews. The only thing that was constant was Wing Commander Birch and me and that’s how we carried out till the end of the war when I got demobbed in er June 1946 and so ended my life in the RAF and I, oh I did forget to tell you [laugh] one of the things after I came back from South Africa, was that within a fortnight, Cynthia and I got married. I’d been sending her cake ingredients from South Africa ‘cause you could send parcels home, getting round the rationing so all the stuff had been sent home and the cake had been made, so we got married in 1944 and while I was at Mildenhall waiting to be demobbed she came up there and got a flat together and we stayed there until we were demobbed and went back home. We went to live in Cardiff, and I got back into the civil service and stayed there. I got various postings in the civil service and so on and I ended up in the civil service in 1981 when you got retired bang [emphasis] on sixty, 17th of August 1981, finished, retired. And that was it really so, I suppose that’s my history. [laugh]
CM: That’s amazing [laugh]
VM: All right?
CM: That’s fantastic! And now you’ve come back to Lincoln.
VM: And now I’ve come back to Lincoln. I was Lincoln, I mean I, I went back to Cardiff to start with and then I got promoted and went to London, and after that I went to the Atomic Energy Research Establishment at Harwell and I stayed there. Then I went back to London, to Surrey and that’s where you know I retired. And I lived in various places in London suburbs, and um until we got older and we went into a retirement establishment in Oxford, and then er then Linda and Joe said ‘Well, you know, you’re getting on a bit now as well and might need some care, so come up and live near us,’ which is what we did and here we are. And this is where we are. My wife died three years ago, four years ago now and that’s it really and the air force has reclaimed me in a way ‘cause I had nothing to do with them until I came up to Lincoln. [Pause] How’s that – anything else?
CM: No, it’s been fantastic. Thank you. [laugh] Yes, amazing. Would, if you had the opportunity, would you fly in a Lanc again – not that I can promise that of course.
VM: What do you mean, would I fly in a Lanc?
CM: Would you go up in a Lancaster again if you had the opportunity?
VM: Oh yes of course. Well I mean it’s very interesting the Lanc at East Kirkby,
CM: Yes.
VM: Just Jane, I went there.
CM: Yes.
VM: I had a taxy in it you see. ‘Course they all suddenly said oh well, he used to be in one of these, and fly them I got very embarrassed because people started queuing up to get me autograph and things I thought bloomin’ ‘eck I wish they wouldn’t do that, and it was very interesting because when I got in the Lanc and walking up the fuselage and then you had to get into the cockpit and there’s a big main spar across. Well, I couldn’t, I mean I had a job, I needed a crane to get over that I couldn’t get had to be helped over it, I go one leg up I said I don’t remember this being here at all before, because as a youngster, you know, I said I don’t remember, I didn’t know there was such a thing there [chuckle] I said I can’t get over the damn thing, I said it’s a major job to climb over this to get into the cockpit so it’s quite funny really. And um yeah anyway, there we are. I haven’t actually flown [emphasis] in one but I’ve been [emphasis] in one and I’ve had a taxy in one and you know, I’ve said to Andy Millican, the CO, of BBMF, I said you know if the opportunity arises while I’m here some time I said I’m ready for a trip. [laugh]
CM: I can imagine. Thank you.
VM: All right?
CM: It’s been amazing. I’m going to hit the pause button now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Vernon Thomas Morgan
Creator
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Claire Monk
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-08
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMorganVT170908
Format
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00:41:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
South Africa
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Suffolk
Wales--Cardiff
Description
An account of the resource
Vernon Morgan, from Cardiff, joined the civil service working at the Royal Ordnance Factory, volunteering for the RAF in 1941. After pilot training in South Africa he returned to several different roles: CO of a satellite aerodrome, pilot for wireless operator training. Retrained as flight engineer, he was posted to 619 and then 44 Squadrons, flying operations including bombing runs and repatriation of troops/POWs. He returned to the civil service after the war.
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1944
1946
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
44 Squadron
619 Squadron
aircrew
flight engineer
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lincoln
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Oxford
pilot
Proctor
RAF Madley
RAF Mildenhall
RAF St Athan
RAF Strubby
RAF Swinderby
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1038/11410/PMorrisPG1701.1.jpg
dbe8fd14d0cec7f62ab5484ff8161149
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1038/11410/AMorrisPG171010.2.mp3
2abe2291828666848d77cd6c852668b9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Morris, Peter
P G Morris
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Peter Morris (b.1925, 1813258 Royal Air Force). He flew operations with 90, 42 and 120 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-10
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Morris, PG
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RP: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Rod Pickles. The interviewee is Peter Morris. The interview is taking place at Mr Morris’ home in Collompton, Devon on the 10th of October 2017. Francis Platt is also present. Good morning, Peter. Could you start by telling us when and where you were born and what led you to joining the RAF, please?
PM: Well, I was born in East Ham in East London in the June of 1925. I lived in London throughout the Blitz and I suppose was full of bravado when the ATC started in 1941. I joined. And I decided to train as air crew. And after a couple of years in the Air Training Corps at seventeen I joined the Royal Air Force and I was accepted to train as either a pilot bomb aimer or navigator. I was called up just two weeks before my eighteenth birthday and I went initially on an education course because I left school at fourteen and I was keen to get my education better. And after that I went through the normal basic training for the RAF which was just the normal square bashing and so on. And I spent twelve hours flying on Tiger Moths to see whether I’d got the application to be a pilot. But I wasn’t too keen. And then after a lot more [pause] I then did more aptitude tests in London and it was decided that I should train as a navigator. And then I was sent to Heaton Park in Manchester which was a holding unit for air crew and I was there for nearly six months waiting for a navigation course. At the time they told us that the losses in Bomber Command were less than they were expecting. Well, as one in two got killed I wondered just how many they were expecting.
RP: Well, yes.
PM: And whilst I was there they called for volunteers to go to Hornchurch, just outside London to help repair houses damaged by the V-1 Doodlebugs and I went down there. Spent about a month repairing houses just killing time. And then we were called back to Heaton Park and then they decided they would send us, a group of us went to RAF Waterbeach to work on the bomb dump. The armourers just couldn’t cope at the time as there were twenty aircraft on the station and there were some that were doing two raids a day. And when you had to prepare all the bombs for it. So, we arrived at Waterbeach and the next day we were sent to the bomb dump and there we were shown the bombs that we had to prepare. There were four thousand pound bombs which needed a nose ring fitted because they had pressure fuses in them to help build the pressure up in the noses and the tail fin had to be fitted. And also the lugs which held the bomb on to the aircraft had to be screwed on. Then we had the thousand pounders and there you had to fit the tail units and also you had to fit, fit the fuses in the nose. The only thing we weren’t allowed to do, we weren’t allowed to put the detonators in because the detonators were very very touchy and they could go off with the warmth of your hand and so the armourers would fit the detonators. They would screw in the pistols so that was all ready. Another job we weren’t allowed to do were the long delay fuses because they had, not like the Germans, apparently they had a clockwork system. Our long defused, long delay fuses had acid and various forms of plastic rings and as the acid burned through the rings and then it let the firing pin go forward and set the bomb off. But they had an anti-handling device. You only had to turn it half a turn and it would release the trigger and the bomb went off. So we weren’t allowed to do that. The armourers had to do that. And of course the armourers put them on the aircraft. It was quite a job to think that everyone had to be hand winched up in to the aircraft. And we were there for about a month. The first day I was there we got there about 9 o’clock in the morning and I, still there 9 o’clock the following morning. We had spent all night. They brought food out to us at the bomb dump and we were just getting these bombs ready for them to get on the aircraft. And I remember sitting on a thousand pounder and I fell asleep sitting on it until someone woke me up. And then another job we had doing were packing incendiary bombs. As incendiary bombs they came originally a hundred and fifty in a canister and then they extended the canister so they could get another fifty in each side. So there were three sets of bombs in them and we had to fit another hundred and fifty incendiary bombs in these canisters. And these were small bombs. They were hexagonal shape and there was a small fire, a small pin which you had to fit so that it was kept shut by the can, by the hexagonal shape. And I remember one of the chaps, he happened to accidentally drop one and it went off. We were doing this in a hangar and he had the presence of mind to throw it out the door of the hangar. And the next thing we knew the fire brigade had arrived. They’d seen all the smoke going up —
RP: Yeah.
PM: From this incendiary bomb. But they were very touchy. We were, as I say we were there for about a month doing this and then they, we were called back to Heaton Park because they said that I’d got a navigation course and I was fortunate in many ways because the course was on the Isle of Man. At Jurby. And so I went across to the Isle of Man and qualified as a navigator there and finally qualified in May 1945 just as the VE Day had been declared. And then I went on to train on Wellingtons in preparation to go out to the Far East. And again they dropped the bomb and that stopped that. And from the Wellingtons we went on to Lancasters and I finally went, finished up on a squadron in Bomber Command. Number 90 Squadron at RAF Tuddenham in February 1946.
RP: So most of your war then was dealing with waiting for a course and then —
PM: Yes. Yes. I was, I was a good six months waiting for a navigation course.
RP: And then its VE Day and you don’t see any action.
PM: VE day. They didn’t know what to do with us when we finally qualified and we were sent home on indefinite leave and I had about six weeks at home. And then I got a telegram telling me to report to Number 26 Operational Training Unit at RAF Wing near Leighton Buzzard. And then that was on Wellingtons. And from there, as I say, through to Lancasters.
RP: So when, when you sort of realised that, you know, after the VJ day.
PM: Yeah.
RP: Were you, were you feeling relieved or disappointed? Can you remember?
PM: A bit of both. You obviously at that time you didn’t really know what it was like to go on ops and you always thought that’s what you joined for but at the same time you were relieved that you hadn’t have to go.
RP: Yeah. But did you, when you were at Waterbeach did you meet any of the air crew? Did you get to know any?
PM: No.
RP: You weren’t —
PM: No.
RP: In touch with any of them.
PM: No. No. I think they deliberately kept us out of the way of air crew because they knew what was happening and we didn’t.
RP: So, so only a month. You didn’t feel inclined to become an armourer then.
PM: Oh, no. No.
RP: Seen what they were doing.
PM: No. I wanted to be a navigator.
RP: So you qualified as a navigator. It’s now 1946.
PM: Yeah.
RP: So what happens then?
PM: Then in 1946 they brought out a scheme where you could sign on for three years in the RAF and four years Reserve and they’d give you a hundred pounds for doing it which was a lot of money in those days. And I decided I would sign on and so I signed on for the three years and four Reserve and I remained on the squadron. And then there was trouble out in Yugoslavia and we were sent as an advance party out to Malta to be prepared for going bombing Yugoslavia as they’d attacked one of our ships and also attacked an aircraft I believe. And we spent ten days there and then the whole thing fizzled out and we flew back home again. Then the squadron moved to RAF Wyton which was a permanent station whereas Tuddenham was a wartime base and we re-equipped with Lincoln aircraft. And whilst on Lincolns we had the job of testing the new auto pilot. And one of the jobs that we had was to test it to see how it went and operated under bumpy conditions and low level. At that time everybody’s gradually getting demobbed and there were only two navigators on the squadron at one time, myself and the nav leader. And so anything that happened one of us had to go along. And the navi didn’t want to go on this particular trip so I went along and they said, well we went to the Met Office and, ‘Where can we find bumpy conditions at low level?’ They said, ’How about the Nile Valley?’ And sort of tongue in cheek we said, ‘Great. We’ll apply for it,’ and they accepted. And so we then, we flew out to the Canal Zone in the Middle East and to start with we used the autopilot as the bomb aimer had a control in the bomb aimer’s position for doing bombing runs. We did some bombing runs in the desert there. And then we flew low level along the Nile up to Khartoum. So around about fifty to a hundred feet mostly, up along the Nile with the autopilot in all the way. And then from Khartoum we flew to Nairobi and again at low level. Not quite so low because it was mainly jungle we were flying over. Whilst at Nairobi it was Battle of Britain Day and they asked us if we would do an air display for them which we were quite happy to do. We did that and then again flew back the way we came out and back to RAF Wyton. I remained on the squadron then until, it must have been about the end of 1948. ’47. And one of the other navigators on the squadron had been posted to RAF Coningsby as an instructor on Mosquitoes. And they wanted another instructor there because I had done an instructor’s course when I signed on. They wanted people to be instructors and he volunteered me against my will to go on to Coningsby to fly on Mosquitoes. And I turned up at Coningsby and our job there was to train the navigators in using GH which was a blind bombing radar device. Of course, we couldn’t show them in the aircraft because it only, only held two people. So we had an Anson Mark 19 fitted out with all the gear on it and we trained them on that. But I wasn’t too happy flying in Mosquitoes. You didn’t have a navigation table. You had a piece of board on your knees. Your chart was pinned on it with drawing pins and all your instruments were on pieces of string all around because if you dropped it you’d never find it again. I preferred the heavies. And the nav leader there said, ‘Well, you’re not happy on these are you?’ I said, ‘No. I’d rather go back to heavies.’ They then posted me to RAF Lindholme to do a course to go back on to them again. And when they found out I was a qualified instructor they were one short and they said, ‘Will you remain as an instructor on navigation?’ Which I was quite happy to do. And so there I was training people to use H2S which was a radar which showed a picture of the ground underneath you. It was very primitive compared with what there is now but we were doing that. And [pause] and I remained there until nearly 1950. And towards the end of that time the wing commander flying called me in and said was I interested in taking a commission? And I said, well yes I was. I’d got nothing to lost. And I filled all my papers in and waited and waited. Nothing happened. The wing commander called me into his office. He said, ‘Very sorry. Your application’s been lost.’
RP: Dear me.
PM: ‘Will you fill them in again?’ Which I did. I filled them in and waited, and waited and waited. Nothing happened. And again he said, ‘We’re awfully sorry,’ he said, ‘But they’ve been lost again.’ So I filled in a third lot and again I waited and waited. I was getting a bit upset now because to start with I had now finished my three years and I was on no contract whatsoever with the Air Force to remain in.
RP: And what rank were you at this time?
PM: At that time we were, our ranks had changed. We had air crew ranks.
RP: Yeah.
PM: And we were called navigator 2 which was the equivalent of a sergeant.
RP: Oh right. So here you are. It’s your third application. Does it go through?
PM: It was the third application. And at the same time I’d applied to sign on to do twenty two years in the RAF.
RP: Right.
PM: And again, I went and he said, ‘It’s been lost again.’ Well, I was getting a bit cross now and I said, ‘Sir, you can stick your commission. I will sign on ‘til I, to do twenty two.’ And he more or less agreed with it. We left it at that. And I then applied to do an advanced navigation course and I was accepted. And I went to RAF Shawbury and did the advanced navigation course. It was the most concentrated course I’ve ever done in my life, I think. In six weeks we went from basic algebra to spherical trigonometry and your head was absolutely buzzing. You had to learn about every piece of equipment you had in the aircraft. Not how to use it but how it was made and how it operated. And that took us about three months and then I was posted to RAF Swinderby as an instructor at an Advanced Flying Unit and then back on to Wellingtons again. And while I was in Lincoln I met my old nav leader who was at Scampton and he said, ‘They found your applications. They were all in the station commander’s office when it was the station commander’s home amongst newspapers when he was posted. And they found they were all there.’ Which made me a bit upset.
RP: Yeah. So they couldn’t, couldn’t initiate it from there then?
PM: No. No. So, I remained at Swinderby for, was it two, two years because that was the average time you stayed at any unit. And from there I was posted on to a ground course. Ground crew out in Germany to be at a fighter plotting unit. And when I got there the first thing they said to me, you know, ‘Well, have you trained on this?’ I said, ‘I haven’t.’ They said, ‘Well, you’re no good to us.’ So they sent me to RAF Oldenburg where they had a small mobile radar unit with a mobile plotting table and quite honestly it was a doddle because as a navigator you knew all the maps and so on. It was just a case of sitting at a table watching airmen pushing little arrows around. Much as you see on the Battle of Britain things. And I did that for two and a half years. And at the end of that I was posted back to England and I had to go to Air Ministry for them to decide where I wanted to go from there. By now I’d gone up a rank. I was now a flight sergeant as they’d brought back the old ranks again. And initially I said, ‘Well, can I go on helicopters?’ as my friend had gone on helicopters. They said, ‘Oh no. Not with your experience. How about Coastal Command?’ So, that will do me. And so I was posted then to RAF St Mawgan to train in Coastal Command and I did my basic training there and then was posted to Kinloss up in Scotland to train on the Shackleton Mark 1. And from there I was, when I finished the course I was posted to RAF St Eval where we had Shackleton Mark 2s. So I arrived on 42 Squadron in September of 1946. I went in to the orderly room to book in and the first thing they said to me, ‘Can you go overseas at a moment’s notice? Otherwise,’ he said, ‘We’ll send you to another squadron.’
RP: You said 46.
PM: Fifty.
RP: ’56. Yeah.
PM: ’56.
RP: I think Shackletons weren’t around then.
PM: No. They Weren’t. No. 1956.
RP: ‘56 yeah.
PM: And so, apparently the squadron had just been made the colonial policing squadron and this involved us going out to Aden for short terms. Well, my wife was heavily pregnant at the time but I didn’t tell them and I said, ‘No, it’s alright. I can go.’ And we then had to train from using the low level bombsight which the Shackleton was fitted with to using a high level bombsight which was the Bomber Command bombsight. And we spent several months dropping bombs on a practice range. And then the squadron was moving out there at four aircraft at a time. Four would go out to Aden and then as they were relieved by the other four that were back in St Eval. And it was in July of 1956, ’57 now that our crew was posted, was sent out to Aden. And we were not allowed to fly across the Arab countries because they refused us permission because they said we were going on a warlike mission against other Arab nations. And so we had to stow the guns inside the aircraft because we had two cannon in the nose of the Shackleton and we flew out first to Cyprus. From Cyprus we flew along the borders between Turkey and Syria, down through Iraq, down to Bahrain and from Bahrain we flew down across the desert over Muscat Omans area. Right down until we reached Aden. And [pause] and when we arrived in Aden the temperature was terribly hot. Forty degree plus. At times it was fifty degrees there. First several flights that we did were getting used to the area. We flew with one of the crews from one of the other aircraft because the maps were so poor there. There wasn’t any satellite navigation then and so you more or less had to make the maps up as you flew. And so we got to know the area we flew over. It was mainly along the Yemen border with Aden. And the idea was to, to look out for people that were coming across the borders and causing trouble. This was a sort of a pastime for them. They would come across the border, fire a few rounds off and go back home again. And we did this. I suppose [pause] living up in that area was an RAF intelligence officer. In fact, he lived just like an Arab. Dressed like an Arab. He even looked like an Arab. And he would, we would contact him and he would give us directions to fly to check on at certain areas. A couple of times we had to do some bombing runs. We had fourteen one thousand pound bombs and we had to drop these in areas where the RAF Venoms, they couldn’t reach because they would normally go with rockets. But the mountain, it was so mountainous there because most of it was six thousand feet. And down in the valleys the Venoms couldn’t get in so we would go and drop bombs where these intruders had gone in. A couple of occasions where they’d misbehaved they would go and warn them and drop leaflets and say at such and such a day at such and such a time we’re going to come and bomb your fields. And so they kept clear and then we’d go and we’d drop a stick of bombs across their fields to make them, to bring them back into line again. Then one Saturday morning we were called in and they said, ‘Right. You’ve got to go Bahrain immediately. Don’t know what for but get your kit and off you go.’ And so we got our kit and we flew up to Bahrain. Sunday morning they said, ‘Right, you’re going to fly over Muscat Oman. And you’re to go with a Pembroke pilot from here that will show you around the area.’ So we took off and we flew over to, near a place called Nizwa which was a large sort of town almost and in the centre of it was a very large circular fort. And there’d been an uprising. The Sultan’s brother had rebelled against him and we had an agreement with the Sultan that if he was in danger then the RAF or the British forces would go and, go and help him. So that’s what we were there for. The pilot of the Pembroke was showing us around and he took us up one valley. He said, ‘Well, you can turn around when you get to end and come back again.’ Well, you could in a Pembroke. But in a Shackleton no way. And when we got to the end there was this great cliff in front of us and with full power on we just managed to scrape over the top of it. So we decided we wouldn’t go up that valley again. And then our role then was to fly out every day and we were given certain villages to fly over. Some were friendly. Some weren’t. And we had to observe what they were doing. And this went on for about seven or eight days and in that time nothing seemed to be happening very much but we’d been building up. The army had flown in. The paratroopers had arrived at Bahrain and they were going to be flown out to an airfield which was on an oil well out in Muscat and they would march across the desert to attack from that side. And we were dropping leaflets all the time. We had different colour leaflets. I think it was white ones to drop to friendly areas and pink ones to drop to enemy areas. More or less telling them you know one was saying the Sultan was a good man. The other one was saying you’ve got to stop what you’re doing and come and join the Sultan. All that sort of thing. Anyway, on one of the trips we carried a group captain who was the senior air staff officer for Middle East Command. He wanted to see what was going on and again we had the leaflets to drop. And on one particular village, a place called Firq, which was just south of Nizwa it was a very small fort there and they said, ‘Right, you’ve got to drop these leaflets. They’ve got to go in the fort but they mustn’t go outside it.’ Well it’s not very easy when you’re dropping leaflets like that and so we decided we’d go in at about five hundred feet and drop these leaflets. And we were in the middle of dropping them and we felt like a ripple go through the aircraft. We realised we’d been hit by small arms fire. We were very lucky really because in the nose of the aircraft there were three of us. There was the bomb aimer, that was the other navigator in the nose, there was one of the sergeant signallers who was putting the leaflets down the flare chute and the group captain and a bullet came up. It hit the switch right underneath them, split it in half. Missed them all. One half went in and hit the co-pilot’s intercom box so it knocked it out completely. He didn’t know what was going on. And the other half later we dug out of a tin of sweets in the emergency rations. In the tail there was a tail lookout and the chap laid in the tail look out had a bullet go in by his shoulder and go out above his head. And we decided it was time to clear the area. And I remember our captain, he called up the two Venoms that were attacking another village up the road and said, ‘Watch this place. They’re sharpshooters.’ And one of them said, ‘Oh, I’ll save a rocket for them on the way back.’ And this group captain was on immediately, ‘No. No. No. No. They’ve got to be told first.’ As we were dropping leaflets telling them that they would be attacked the following day. And when we landed back at Bahrain we found there were other holes in the wings where again we were so lucky. Your wings are full of petrol and full of wires and it missed everything. Gone right through the wings in out through the top and nothing was damaged at all. And I remember they, they repaired the holes. They hadn’t have anything to repair them with so they used aluminium beer cans and riveted them over the holes. They were, the following day we took off again and we were told there we’d got to be there before eight in the morning and again go in low level, dropping leaflets telling them they would be attacked within half an hour. They weren’t too pleased about that. Anyway, we got there and we thought that we’d wake them up so we flew across firing our twenty mil cannon to make them keep their heads down. Then came back, dropped our leaflets and came home. We had to allow for the loss of ammunition and so we said we’d done some air sea firing on the way home to account for the ammunition and got admonished for wasting ammunition in that way. Anyway, the, the army did attack that day and the Venoms went in first with the rockets and attacked the fort and then the paratroopers moved in and they gradually drove them up. At Nizwa they’d got a tanker, a lorry which was the, been going from one of the oil wells. They had captured the crew of the tanker and had got them in this large fort and they had said if we attacked the fort they would hang them over the balconies. And we could actually see them there over because it was a big circular fort and we could see the chaps there so obviously we didn’t attack it. Eventually they did get in and they drove the rebels up in to Jabal Akhdar which was an eight thousand foot high mountain nearby and it finished up with the SAS going up the mountain and sorting them out. And that was the end of the sorties there. Before it actually finished the CinC Bomber Comm, the CinC Middle East Command ordered that we be sent back to Bahrain. He said, ‘Go back there and cool off.’ But if you can imagine cooling off in Bahrain. Anyway, we decided, well we didn’t decide we were sent back to Bahrain to have a so-called rest. And the next day we were told we’d got to go on a bombing raid and two aircraft were involved. One of the flight commander’s and our aircraft. And we loaded up with fourteen one thousand pound bombs and as the flight commander was taking off white smoke started pouring out of all four engines and he just managed to pull it to a halt at the end of the runway, and they cancelled the bombing raid. And they found that in the heat in Aden we used a thing called water metholated, water meth which gave increased power to the engines and this was injected in to the engines. And in the heat it had distilled out and it just put straight water into the engines and so it didn’t do them any good. And the following day we again, having found this out they changed all the water meth and we’d loaded. Loaded up again with the bombs and took off and we did the raid up in the hills. And a couple of days later we were sent back to Bahrain to assist because now they were carrying out bombing raids using, using small anti-personnel bombs. These were nasty little things. They went off above the ground. They had got loads of sprung steel in them and you got this spring steel going around which did a lot of damage to whoever they were dropped on. We didn’t like them particularly because they had a pressure fuse in them and occasionally, there was one occasion in fact where the bombs started going off and they set the bombs going off behind them and they almost went back up to the aircraft again. So we weren’t too happy about using them. I think they’ve now been banned from use because they’re considered not the right thing to use [pause] Then the length of time of time we stayed in Bahrain or in Aden depended on the number of hours the aircraft had flown. We were supposed to be up there for three months but we’d done so much flying over Bahrain from Bahrain that we had reached our target in about six weeks. And so again we had to fly home and [pause] and two aircraft were coming back to the UK. One was a flight commander and he took off just about twenty minutes in front of us and this time we were allowed to fly over the Arab countries because we weren’t going on a warlike mission. And so we flew down the Red Sea across the border of Abyssinia and then right across the Libyan desert, the Sahara Desert to a place called Castel Benito, which was an ex-Italian airfield. It took us about twelve hours I suppose to fly across there and we landed there and there was no sign of the flight commander who had gone in front of us. And about an hour later I bumped into the navigator from that aircraft. I said, ‘What happened to you?’ Oh, the flight commander was there as well. He said, ‘How did you get here before of us?’ And jokingly I said, ‘Stayed on track all the way, sir.’ Which didn’t go down too well because his navigator apparently, just after take-off, the flight commander came back to see, look at the charts, dropped a cup of water over his chart completely soaking it. And he’d picked it up and screwed it up and throwed it away when he realised he hadn’t have another chart. There wasn’t another one for that area. So he’d had to get it out, unscrew it, stretch it out and of course now it was all out of shape and apparently they got quite lost going across the desert and they landed about an hour after us.
RP: Not the right thing to say then. Yeah. He was still speaking to you afterwards.
PM: Oh yes. He did after. He was normally quite a decent chap but he blew his top a bit. Anyway, the following day we took off and came back to UK. While we were in Aden we were being relieved by 35 Squadron which had been based in Malta and that was going to go to Aden permanently and remain there. And so that was the end of the squadron’s flying out in Aden. We then returned to our normal Coastal Command duties. One of them of course was air sea rescue and quite often we got a call out to go after, to go over the Atlantic Ocean to assist [pause] Constellation aircraft. They had a habit of losing engines coming across the Atlantic and we would fly out at a thousand feet and they would be up at twenty thousand feet and we would call them up and they would say, you know, ‘Assist us,’ and so we would turn around and fly back again, and usually they had landed at Heathrow before we got back to St Eval because they were going a lot faster than us on three engines than we were doing on four. The end of my tour there the squadron commander called me in. He said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I’m afraid that NCO navigators aren’t going to be employed on RAF operational squadrons anymore. So,’ he said, ‘Your time in Coastal is finished now.’ And he said, ‘What I have got here is, I’ve got a piece of paper that’s just come to me that says that they want volunteers to go and serve on Thor missiles as this is going to be the new Bomber Command. I suggest, I suggest you do that. At least you’re guaranteed a job then.’ So I thought about that. So I applied for this and I had to go to Air Ministry to be interviewed and the interviewer was a wing commander who I’d known as a flight lieutenant on 90 Squadron. So that was the end of the interview really. We just chatted and I was accepted and we then sailed across to, well we were busy. We were going to New York but we went on a Canadian Pacific ship. We went across to Montreal and our first stop was Quebec and then we sailed up the St Lawrence to Montreal. Beautiful river. Lovely day. And it was marvellous sailing along there. It’s a huge river because if you imagine there you’ve got these large ocean going liners and two of them could pass quite easily along the river. From there we got the train to New York where we were given a couple of days off and we managed to go up the Empire State Building while I was there. And then we got an aircraft to take us to Tucson in Arizona and it was a DC4. And it was supposed to land at Tucson Municipal Airport. Well. the pilot thinking as we were all RAF and we were all going to go eventually to [pause] we were going to be stationed at Davis-Monthan, which was a SAC base in Arizona. And so for some reason the pilot decided to land at Davis-Monthan. Well, SAC bases are very very security tight and an aircraft suddenly coming in which they’re not expecting they don’t go much on and they sent us over to the far side of the airfield. We were ringed with machine guns and first of all they wouldn’t let us out of the aeroplane. Well, it’s very hot in Tucson at the end of August, the beginning of September. And eventually they let us out but they surrounded us with the guards with machine guns. And eventually they sorted it out. Apparently, they’d been waiting for us at the municipal airport with a group of local dignitaries to greet us there.
RP: Right.
PM: And when they managed to sort it out it was only a case of driving through the gate because we were billeted just outside the main airfield in Davis-Monthan. We spent a month there learning about the missile. It was so new then they hadn’t actually fired one successfully. The instructor we had was on the previous course and that’s his knowledge was what he’d been told on the previous course there. But we, see we spent a month there and then we got sent on a Constellation to fly out to Los Angeles. And from there we went to [pause] from there we went to Vandenberg which was the main missile base in the States at that time and we carried on with the course there. We actually saw the missile for the first time but again they hadn’t fired one successfully. We saw various films of them taking off and then crash landing and exploding and so on but not one that actually worked. And when we’d finished the course there it was now December and they decided they would fly us back to New York and normally what happened you caught one of the Queens and they flew you, brought you back to UK. And when we got to New York it was freezing cold. When we’d left California we were in shorts. Eighty degrees. There was snow on the ground in New York and the temperature was minus goodness knows what. And it was like walking into a brick wall as you walked out of the aircraft with the change in the temperature. Anyway, they, they said, ‘Well, at the moment we can’t find any way to get you home so we’ll leave you in New York.’ We were abandoned there for ten days which was great. We were given ten dollars a day expenses to live in New York and we were billeted initially in the Governor Clinton Hotel. But they were expensive in there. They charged you four dollars a night just for the bed and then you had to pay for your breakfast and everything on top of that. And we found that the YM, you could do it for a dollar a night and so a number of us moved into the YM and stayed there. Of those who stayed at the Governor Clinton would tell us if anything had happened and they wanted us for going home. The beauty, while we were there is that we had American ID cards and so we could go into their [pause] they had a very good United Services Organisation there and you could go in there, show them your ID card and you’d get free tickets to any theatre in Broadway, any cinema in Broadway and through the day you could go on various tours. And I managed to go through the United Nations building on one tour. Another one they took us up inside the Statue of Liberty where you could climb right up to the top and the band around the Statue of Liberty’s head they are actually windows that you can look out. We were there for, as I say about ten days and then they managed to get Douglas DC6 to fly us home to the UK on Christmas Eve. And so we flew home. I managed to get a taxi home from London Airport as it was then. And so that was the end of my tour there. And from there I was posted to RAF Hemswell in Lincolnshire. That was the main base for the missiles. But there were a number of squadrons and each squadron was based at a different base. These were mainly the old wartime bases and I was sent to number 106 Squadron which was stationed at Bardney. Which again was a wartime airfield. But we still hadn’t got the missiles then. In fact, they were still building the site. The missile goes into a covered shelter and they hadn’t even got the shelters there. They were still putting in the rails for them to work on and it must have been six months or more before it was completed. And then the missiles started to arrive. They were flown over from the States in the large American aircraft. Then sent through the streets to the various sites. And when we’ve actually got them then we had to start the proper shift system because they had to be manned twenty four hours a day as the oil in the guidance system was so touchy that if the temperature changed the oil would solidify and would ruin the gyros which cost thousands of pounds to replace. And so we had to be there all the time with them. This meant manning twenty four hours a day as I say. And then we were put on a shift system where we’d do four days mornings, four days afternoons, four days nights. Four days off. This went on for ever and ever and ever. It was the most boring job in the world because you couldn’t do anything with a missile other than just watch it. Anyway, after a few months they asked me if I’d like to go to Hemswell, the main base to work in the main office there. The training office. And I said, ‘Yeah. I’m quite happy to do that,’ because it was nearer to where I was living. I was living on a caravan at the site at the time because we couldn’t get married quarters there. And so I went there and the role there was to doing, checking on the missiles because every now and again one of them would be selected and the crew would do a practice firing. This involved pumping liquid oxygen into the tank on the missile itself. It carried eighty six thousand gallons of liquid oxygen. And then it also had an eighty err seventy five gallons of fuel. And this was pumped in to a tanker because they didn’t want to get the two together to risk any chance that they might fire. The igniters were taken out so they couldn’t possibly fire. And we’d go through a practice countdown and our role was to go out and just check to see that they’d pressed the right switches and so on. This was much better. It was a more interesting job than I was doing before. Shortly after that I was promoted to master navigator which was warrant officer rank. And I did, I carried on doing that for two or three months. And then I applied to sign on ‘til I was fifty five. And again the letter that came back from Air Ministry did I want to take a commission? So I spoke to my wife and we thought about it and I said, ‘Well, what can I lose?’ I get a higher pension as a commissioned officer than I would as a warrant officer. But I get more respect as a warrant officer than I get as a commissioned. So we decided I’d try and go for the commission. And I went, I had to go to see the AOC, the air officer commanding the area to be interviewed by him. And the day before a corporal in our orderly room had gone up to see him so I said, ‘What did he ask you then?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘He wanted to know, because we’d been to America he wanted to know the American system of parliament. Or the equivalent of our parliament. He also, apparently he’d been the air officer in Pakistan and so he asked him about Pakistan. And so he said he also wanted to know who the various Commonwealth prime ministers were. So that night I did a quick check up on all those. I went and sat down in his office and he said, ‘Oh, yes,’ he said. Tell me, what’s the system in the States for their parliament sort of system.’ And I was able to explain it to him, you know. He said, ‘What’s the set up in Pakistan now?’ I said, ‘I think there’s been a coup recently and the army had taken over.’ ‘Who’s the prime minister of Canada? Who’s the prime minster of — ’ He said, ‘You seem to be very well read.’ He said, ‘That’s ok.’ That was the end of the interview. And then I went to Jurby again on the Isle of Man for three months to train as an officer. And at the end of that I qualified as a flying officer rather than a pilot officer the way most of them did because if you were a warrant officer you went up a rank. And the beauty of it was that you had to be paid more than a warrant officer got. And a warrant officer got more than a normal flying officer got. So I was on a higher rate of pay and the commission I had was called a branch commission which was especially for NCO aircrew and it, after three years you were automatically promoted to flight lieutenant. So at the end of the course I was then posted back to Coastal Command and I went up to Kinloss and there we now had Mark 3 Shackletons. And I had to do the course again. And the thing that did annoy me was that they insisted that I did a basic navigation training course again. And so I waited at Kinloss for a while. I was attached to 120 Squadron until I’d done this navigation course. They were doing several trips there and on one of them going to Gibraltar for the weekend. I said, ‘Well, can I come along with you?’ And they said, ‘Yeah, great,’ you know,’ you can. You’re welcome.’ And I said to one of the navigators, ‘Can I have a go on the table? Give me a chance to get my hand back in.’ He said, ‘Yeah, sure.’ And when I went to go the captain of the aircraft said, ‘Definitely not.’ He said, ‘You’ve haven’t done your refresher course yet.’ He said, ‘You can’t, obviously you can’t go on.’ So I thought fair enough. I went down the back of the aircraft. Got my head down. This was a night flight out there. And after about an hour someone woke me up and they said, ‘Would you come forward?’ So I said, ‘Yeah.’ And when I got forward both the navigators were sick. Would I take over? Which pleased me no end. And we’d only now were just sort of going down the Irish Sea. And so I managed to take over and sort of, sort out where I thought we were. And then that engine packed in and so we diverted into RAF St Mawgan. And while we were on the ground there the other two other navigators recovered themselves and so they took over and they flew it down to Gibraltar so I was a passenger then there and back. But it did amuse me a little bit. And anyway, I did the navigation course at Topcliffe and then back to Kinloss. Did the basic Coastal Command course all over again and then back on to 120 Squadron and there I became, we had first and second navigators. The senior navigator was the first navigator and the junior one was second navigator. I became the second navigator on a crew. The first navigator, he had already done a tour in Gibraltar and he, we were back on, under our normal coastal work which was surveillance of, the Russian fleet was always floating around somewhere in the North Atlantic and we kept surveillance on them. Russian submarines were continually turning up close to our shores and we would do surveillance on them. And also they had fishing boats which were absolutely covered with aerials. We called them ELINTS — Electronic Intelligence vessels and we would have to go out and try and locate them and when you’ve got somewhere three or four hundred Russian fishing vessels and the Russians they used the same type of fishing vessels for everything and so they were all exactly the same. But one of them would have all these aerials on them. You would have to find that one in amongst all this lot. And once you’d located it of course then you could keep track of it and see what it was doing. Once they were located they realised they’d been caught and they would sort of clear off. On one of the occasions we used to fly out quite often to Iceland and we’d do a patrol going up to Iceland. Then from Iceland we would patrol across to Bodo in Norway and have a couple of days on the ground in Norway and then another patrol back to Kinloss again. And on this occasion we were flying up to Iceland and we came across a Russian submarine support vessel which we reported back and when we landed in Iceland there was a great fuss on there because they hadn’t, didn’t realise it was in the area. Normally the Americans had sort of passed on the information but they didn’t even know it was there and our AOC in Scotland ordered us to take off as soon as we could to relocate it. Well, the following day there was a seventy five knot gale blowing at Iceland. The station commander had closed the station. He said it wasn’t safe to take off because it wasn’t down the runway. And our AOC ordered him to open the station up, to open up the disused runway which luckily was straight into wind and we were to take off. And so we did this and we couldn’t locate the aircraft err the ship on the way back. We went back to Kinloss. The following day we had another panic on. A Russian submarine had been located in the training grounds just off Northern Ireland where the navy did all their training with us and often they would join in the exercises. Anyway, they located this submarine right in the middle of it and four of us were ordered off that night to try and locate it and try to force it out of the area. And we’d been airborne about twenty minutes and the aircraft behind us we had a call, a mayday call, he’d got an engine fire and he was returning to Kinloss and the engine, they couldn’t put the fire out and it spread along the wing and set the second engine on fire. And he was, managed to get across over Inverness and he crashed it on Culloden Moor. In fact he crashed he said by the light from the flames from the engines he could see where he was going. And all the crew luckily got out. Now, that aircraft was the one that we’d flown in on the day before. It had only done twenty minutes flying from when we took off from Iceland. If it had happened the day before we wouldn’t have had a hope in hell because of the winds blowing like that. As I say there wouldn’t have been a hope in hell of us getting back anywhere. Anyway, we, one of our aircraft did locate the submarine and it was forced to the surface and it was escorted out of the area. We then had what was considered a jolly. We were going down to South Africa, to Cape Town and we were going to join because the South Africans also had Mark 3 Shackletons and we were going to do exercises with them. The British Navy was down there with their Navy and the American Navy and the American Naval aircraft were there as well. And we flew, this time we flew down to El Adem in North Africa, in Libya. From there we flew across the desert at night to Nairobi. From Nairobi we flew down to Salisbury or Harare as it’s called now. From Harare we flew to Ysterplaat which is the airfield just outside Cape Town where we were going to be based. And we did one exercise with the Navy and then we were going to do another one that night and our CO took one look at the weather, he said, ‘No. We’re not going. It’s a waste of time because the sea state would be so great that you wouldn’t be able to do anything anyway.’ And he decided to cancel the exercise but the South Africans, with their Mark 3s they decided no. They were going to go ahead and do it. Anyway, the next morning we’d had a tremendous gale in the night. In fact, it was hurricane that had gone through and we were immediately, we were called in immediately after breakfast and were told that the aircraft that had taken off was missing. They reckoned that the winds at six odd thousand feet were a hundred and fifty knots and they hadn’t heard from take-off. Anyway, we were the first aircraft to go and we were ordered to go and fly the route that he was supposed to have taken. And we flew out over the, the sea. I was getting winds of seventy five and eighty knots as we sort of went out. The sea was absolutely mountainous. There wasn’t a hope in hell of anybody surviving if it had gone down there sand we flew out and were airborne for about thirteen hours and found absolutely nothing and so we came back. And the following day they said there was a slight chance he might have gone down in the bay outside Cape Town. And two of our, two aircraft were ordered out to go and do a close search of the bay. Whilst there in fact we noticed what we thought might be some wreckage and the thing was if you saw anything like that you’d immediately divert the nearest merchant ship to go and pick it up. And we came across a large Japanese bulk carrier and we did the normal fly across the bows and put the engines up and down to attract his attention. He didn’t take the blindest bit of notice so we came back again and we fired green verey cartridges across the bow. No notice. We came back again with red cartridges this time. Took no notice whatsoever so it obviously wasn’t, I suppose there probably wasn’t anybody on the bridge. And when we landed back apparently he had been called in to Cape Town and they were heavily fined for not following the rules of the sea. Anyway, our CO as we were more conversant with air sea rescue we were given the sort of the control of what was going on and he got the tapes from the tower and listened to them and very very faint, “Mayday. Mayday,” shortly after take-off and they decided they would use a helicopter and go and look in the mountains just off Cape Town. And as they flew over the mountain they could see, they found the aircraft at the bottom of one of the valleys upside down. And the sonar buoys that we carried were bright dayglo orange and it was upside down. The bomb doors had burst open and so they could see these sonar buoys there so they knew immediately what it was. And of course all the crew had been killed. And they must have got into huge turbulence and it flipped the aircraft upside down and that was the end of that. Anyway, the South Africans decided to call the exercise off. And so we stayed there for a little bit longer. They managed to fly us down to Durban for the weekend. We went down there on one of the South African Dakotas. And then we flew home again.
RP: So what year was that?
PM: That was in 1963. Then we went back to our normal sort of surveillance work we were doing and I applied to do the weapons instructor’s course that was actually at Kinloss. And before I could go on that they sent me to RAF Uxbridge which is the RAF School of Education to do an instructor’s course. And I went there and I managed to qualify with an A2 instructor’s category and I went back to Kinloss, did the course as a weapons instructor and back on the squadron where I was made squadron weapons officer. I was then promoted flight lieutenant. And I then got a message through saying I was going to be posted to Malta. Shortly after that I got another message saying I was going to the Maritime Operational Training Unit as a weapon’s instructor. Apparently they had, when I completed the course they had called for me to join them. And so I went to the weapons course at St Mawgan, St Eval, no. Sorry, at Kinloss. And whilst on, on the Operational Training Unit they decided to move the two squadrons that were at St Mawgan up to Kinloss and the Training Unit down to St Mawgan. And so the whole lot had to be moved down to St Mawgan. And before we moved I was called in, they said, ‘Well, would you take over as chief weapons instructor when we move to St Mawgan?’ So I said, ‘Yeah, I don’t mind.’ So I took over and I went down to St Mawgan and we had to set the whole thing up again. All the training classrooms and so on. And I remained there until 1967 when I was posted to Singapore. Now, my wife said she didn’t want to go to Singapore because we’d recently bought a bungalow, the children were both settled in school for the first time because they’d been moved from school to school. So she decided she would remain at home and I didn’t fancy spending two and a half years on my own in Singapore. So they had a scheme whereby if you volunteered to go do, on an unaccompanied tour anywhere in the world it lasted for a year. So I volunteered for that. And they said right, they’d got a post at as ops officer in Labuan in Borneo. So I said that would do fine. And I got all my kit together and just about to go and the signal came through Labuan closed six months ago. And they didn’t know about it apparently. And so they stopped that one. So they said, ‘Well, how about Bahrain?’ So I said, ‘Yes. That would do me.’ Go to Bahrain. And that time they brought out a redundancy scheme for the Air Force had got what they thought were too many older officers. They wanted to get rid of them to make room for the younger ones coming up and so they brought this scheme in which really it was too good to turn down. I think I was, I was given a five thousand pound to leave plus full pension. So I decided I’ll leave. So I volunteered to go out on that and was accepted to leave and I spent another six months or so floating around at St Mawgan doing all sorts of odd jobs. One of them while I was there we wanted, they wanted an aircraft to go out to locate Sir Francis Chichester on his return from his round the world sailing. Because then there was no sat navs and so they had no contact with him. They knew roughly where he was. An aircraft from 42 Squadron was there and an aircraft from the MOTU. We took off to search for him and we were fortunate that we found him and we were able to direct the other aircraft to us because we had reporters on board and the reporters were not allowed to take any photographs until both aircraft were there so neither got the advantage over the other. But it gave me the advantage. I was able to take some photographs before they got the chance for them to do it. Anyway, as we say we located him but he was most upset at being located. Normally, you know, if you found people they would give you a wave when you flew past. But he just didn’t stand up. He didn’t wave. We dropped a message to him in a container welcoming him back and thanking, you know and saying what a good job he’d done. He watched it go past his boat. He didn’t even bother to pick it up. So I think he was most upset. He wanted to sneak in I think without having being seen. And so that was the end of that one and I think one of the last flights I did was on the Torrey Canyon. We were checking the oil that was coming out of that when it crashed at just off the Scilly Isles. And I didn’t know what to do when I came out of the Air Force. I did a computer course at Camborne in Cornwall and it was to train to programme computers but then I realised that there were only two computers in the whole of Cornwall at that time. One, the one we were using was at County Hall and the other was at John Keay House in the China clay industry. So the chances of getting a job there were nil and I didn’t want to leave Cornwall. Cornwall. And so one of the other chaps who was leaving with me, he said he’d applied to train as a teacher at St Luke’s in Exeter. He said, ‘Why don’t you come and, you know try that?’ So, I said, ‘Well, I left school at fourteen. They won’t want to know me there.’ Anyway, he said, ‘Well try it.’ And I went and the principal there was an ex-wing commander navigator.
RP: So you were made. So, I think we finished your RAF career so we might need to bring it to an end there. But did you, just to round it off did you finish your sort of working career as a teacher then?
PM: As a —?
RP: As a teacher.
PM: Yes.
RP: You stayed then.
PM: Well, I’m saying I taught for ten years.
RP: Yeah.
PM: And then I decided I’d had enough again at fifty five they said you could retire. So I took early retirement from that.
RP: Very nice.
PM: And bought a small holding.
RP: Well, that’s, I mean that’s a fascinating, a fascinating career and I say thank you very much for that. I’m just amazed they were still training you as VE day approached but I suppose you were lucky in a way that you didn’t have to go on ops and you could —
PM: No
RP: You looked forward to a full career in the RAF.
PM: Yeah. It was, because you don’t know how you would react to going on ops. The chap that you should have interviewed, that is a chap called Ted Frost. A friend of mine. He did fifty seven ops. DFC. And I said to him, ‘Have they been in touch with you?’ ‘No he said. They haven’t asked me about it.
RP: Oh, well I’ll take the details if you like.
PM: So I can give you Ted’s telephone number.
RP: Absolutely. No. That’s the sort of people I, I would just like to, we’ll just finish this and I’ll say thank you very much, Peter. It’s been fascinating.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Peter Morris
Creator
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Rod Pickles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-10
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMorrisPG171010, PMorrisPG1701
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Pending review
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Format
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01:07:03 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Morris lived through the East End blitz. He joined the ATC as soon as it was established and applied to join the RAF as aircrew. He was accepted for training as a navigator. While waiting for a course he was part of a group that was sent to repair bomb damage from the V-1 attacks and was then sent to support the armourers at RAF Waterbeach by working on the bomb dump. Peter finished his training just as VE day was celebrated and then was sent to prepare for the Far East just before VJ Day. Peter became an instructor and was also posted on to Coastal Command where he took part in air sea rescue operations.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Bahrain
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
United States
California
California--Vandenberg Air Force Base
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
1946
106 Squadron
120 Squadron
42 Squadron
90 Squadron
air sea rescue
aircrew
bombing
bombing up
ground personnel
incendiary device
Lancaster
Lincoln
navigator
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Kinloss
RAF St Eval
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Wyton
Shackleton
Tiger force
training
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/615/11423/PNeechPRR1601.2.jpg
b18dcb33ac05d88b974e6778658b17de
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/615/11423/ANeechPRR180705.1.mp3
71c61783aa88de07a69697151f381f10
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Neech, Peter Rowland Ruthven
P R R Neech
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Neech, PRR
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Peter Neech (b.1925, 1851518 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a with 75 and 98 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GT: This is Thursday the 5th of July 2018 and I’m at the home of Mr Peter Neech born 7 January 1925 in West Hampstead, London, England. Peter joined the RAF on the 7 January 1943 at the age of eighteen, beginning his training to be an air gunner in the July of 1943. Once training completed and fully crewed, Peter completed a tour of Ops on 75 New Zealand Squadron with Stirlings and Lancasters in 1944. Then, after a break, joined 98 Squadron B25 Mitchells until VE Day. Peter continued his RAF career post war as an air gunner on Lincolns, Lancasters and with Coastal Command in Shackletons until retiring in 1956. Peter, thank you for allowing me to interview you for the IBCC Archives. Please tell me why and how you joined the Royal Air Force.
PN: Go ahead now. Yes, I joined because I was working in Hammersmith, London in a jewellers’ shop where my brother had originally worked until he joined the Air Force and so I worked there and the son of the manager came along one time and said ‘Oh I’ve really done it now. I’ve joined the, the I joined up, virtually, but it was in the Air Training Corps Cadets and I’ve joined the Cadets.’ And I said ‘Well that’s a good thing. I’ll join up’, and I joined the Hendon Squadron of the Air Training Corps and em I served with them from 1941 something like that until about 1943 when I joined the Royal Air Force on my eighteenth birthday and I started in as an air gunner on training and went through the training and eh at Westcott I selected, I saw eh ‘Hoot’ Gibson and his crew and I thought ‘They look a very steady crew to me.’ And eh he was third in line for picking out air gunners because they, they hadn’t that’s what they’d come to this country for, so I, he looked my way in between the third position and got in his crew. And from there on I was in ‘Hoot’ Gibson’s crew as a mid-upper gunner.
GT: Outstanding. So, so em, Peter, when you initially then joined as an air gunner at what bases and places did you train before you joined crew?
PN: Before I joined crew? I don’t think em
GT: You were in Scotland?
PN: Yes. Oh yes, I joined up in Scotland at Dalcross. RAF Dalcross and eh that was about three months and then it was there I passed out as a, as an air gunner. And I was very pleased with the little WAAFs there who very kindly sewed our tapes and brevvies on our uniforms. I wouldn’t have been able to do that but they could and they did. And so they sewed our uniforms up with ah the brevvies and the sergeant’s stripes and we were then sergeants. I came down to London then and eh on leave and eh got a, as I’d got a lot of kit, flying kit, I took a taxi home and eh the taxi stopped suddenly and I thought ‘What are you stopped here for?’ and he said ‘Well that’s where you wanted to be.’ And I looked around and true enough it’s my house had been eh quite badly damaged in a local bombing episode when night bombers had come over from Germany and bombed, laid a lot of bombs, and they had blown up a house only two doors, only two houses away from me, damaging my home quite severely. And eh but it got repaired and I went back then to eh a Wellington OTU at Westcott.
GT: So that was late 43 when you eh when you went home to find your house bombed. Was that German bombers or?
PN: German bombers.
GT: Not the German missiles? Not the V1s or the V2s?
PN: No, no, no. They came much later.
GT: Much later, okay. So, so then you arrived at 11 OT, OTU at Westcott in December 43.
PN: Yes.
GT: And, and what aircraft did you join up with there? Or did you go straight to the crew?
PN: No. Went in to Wellington bombers there. And eh I had picked out a crew at that time, ‘Hoot’ Gibson, and eh his crew, I became their mid-upper gunner. And we went from there to Stradishall because that was where they had fighting bombers and Stirling bombers, short Stirlings. And eh I had a mid-upper gunner there, and then we went on from there. And we had, there to [unclear] on to Lancasters and once again there was a mid-upper gunner turret, and then from there we went on to 75 NZ Squadron.
GT: So in Stradishall, and I’m looking at your notebook here and, and pretty much you only spent one month there on 1657 Conversion Unit.
PN: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And that was, that was, now ‘Hoot’s’ crew,
PN: Yeah.
GT: Can you name, name the crew members and where they were from, please?
PN: I, I can, but eh I’ll, no, I’ll have to look it up.
GT: No problem.
PN: Because I have got them all, but em
GT: We, we’ll come back to that.
PN: Their all, apart from one Englishman, who came from Brentford in Essex, the engineer, flight engineer, and myself, we were the only two Englishmen. The rest were all New Zealanders, rear gunner, navigator, em pilot and em bomb aimer. They were all New Zealanders and em from various parts of New Zealand. But eh I can’t remember exactly without looking up, where they came from. I have got the information but eh I can’t remember it now.
GT: Understood.
PN: Who could, who could remember New Zealand words anyway, Maori words [emphasis] at that. [chuckles]. So there you go.
GT: [laughs] All right. So you, em you, you arrived in early April on 75 New Zealand Squadron at Mapel?
PN: Yes. That’s right.
GT: And eh, you eh you did the first month there all on Stirlings?
PN: Yes.
GT: And then you went to LFS at Feltwell in the April.
PN: And changed into Lancasters.
GT: Late April into Lancasters. What, what was the difference between the Stirling and the Lancasters to you?
PN: Size.[chuckles] I used to stand beside the wheel of a Stirling and I came just to the top of the wheel. The Lancaster was much smaller. It’s a fighting bomber but it’s much smaller somehow. Em in size. [coughs]. Quite a, quite a good size and eh quite a good, neat little bomber.
GT: And you were able to fly higher?
PN: Yeah. And it’s a fighting bomber just the same as the Stirling, but much smaller than the Stirling. Wasn’t the same size.
GT: What was your view like. Em was it, was it better on the Lancaster?
PN: Oh yes. It was a, it was a mid-upper gunner turret. Just the same. And em we, we flew on that, on that for twenty six operations. Somehow the tour on one of the things was thirty operations. Somehow or other I managed to do thirty one. [laughs] How I, how I managed to do that I do not know, cos I did. And then I went on to [unclear]
GT: Right. Well, let’s stay with Mapel for the moment. So with, with your gunnery actions and your thirty one operations, did you get any squirts away at the enemy?
PN: Em, occasionally we had eh little eh squirts at them. But on the last, especially the last day, one German aircraft came fairly [emphasis] close to us on the starboard side and eh I kept my eye very closely on him. Eh but he was just flying alongside me, it was towards the end of the war, and all of a sudden he dropped a wing towards us and I didn’t like that at all. Then we, all of us, the rear gunner and myself we fired at him and we shot him down. And that German plane went down and a few seconds later there was a little explosion on the ground and that was him gone.
GT: So you can claim one kill?
PN: One kill at least. Certainly.
GT: The aircraft type was a ?
PN: JU88. A JU88. He probably wasn’t doing any harm but he did, he did drop a wing towards us and I didn’t like that and eh so that’s when we attacked him. I shot him down.
GT: So, did you say to the skipper, ‘I’m Shooting.’ Or did he, did you have to get permission? Or did you just do it?
PN: We didn’t need any permission, only as we’ve opened and fired our guns away. He was close enough I suppose two or three hundred yards. Something like that. Not all that close but eh close enough for us. But he dropped a wing in our direction, I was, I was going and I was firing.
GT: The um, you, you have a little note in your logbook saying that you thought you might have been fired upon from, from below. Was that, was that a rocket?
PN: Oh yes, we did see rockets coming up but em we didn’t take much notice of them. We didn’t even know what they were [emphasis] at that time. So eh, we didn’t take much, we thought they were just anti-aircraft fire as far as I know. But they did come up and they went whistling past us and that was eh they didn’t hit us and that was eh quite happy that they were gone.
GT: So later on you thought they were rockets? Wow.
PN: Later on I did think they were rockets and we learnt about rockets and we suddenly thought probably they were rockets and they had come passed us.
GT: Now, there, there, later on 75 Squadron there were some under-gunners. Did you hear anything about under-gunners?
PN: Never heard. Never heard or saw any under-turrets. No, didn’t see any of those at all.
GT: Did you have any problems with em German aircraft coming up underneath you at night?
PN: Well, we watched, we didn’t eh, we got the skipper to bank over well to one side and we searched underneath very diligently either side, and a little later on we, the other side, we turned the other side there, and searched under that side. We searched underneath very diligently, very carefully and em made quite sure there was no one coming up underneath us to attack us from underneath.
GT: You had been warned about that type of German attack, had you?
PN: Yes, we knew about that kind of German attack. Yes. And eh we were well aware that they could attack from underneath and we took steps to make sure they didn’t attack us [emphasis] from underneath.
GT: So em, how many night operations did you complete?
PN: Em, thirty one, I think on 75.
GT: No, the night time ones though. You did night and day, and day operations.
PN: Oh well, I’d have to consult my log book on that.
GT: And so, for the, for the raids at night though you did not see the other Lancasters next to you?
PN: Em.
GT: Could you see them very well?
PN: Occasionally you’d see them come up close and they would, yes, I did see one come up and I thought he looked a little bit like a fighter and em so we kept a very close watch on him but eh he turned out to be a Lanc. In fact the wireless operator, he has a little radar screen of his own there. He was shouting and saying that there was a fighter coming up on the port side, and I told him to calm down because I had been watching that aircraft for a good ten minutes and I knew [emphasis] that it was another Lancaster and he couldn’t see that he could see just a dot on his screen. But I had been watching it well and knew that it was another Lancaster.
GT: You, you wouldn’t want to be shooting down one of your
PN: And I wouldn’t want to shoot at that. [emphasis]
GT: Did you hear of that ever happening? That other Lancasters shot other Lancasters?
PN: No, no, I didn’t hear any of those. But em there was a time when eh we got eh bombed on the airfield and a lot of air, oh well one aircraft came back with a [unclear] bombs on and he made a very bumpy landing, a very damaging bumpy landing and eh he had [unclear] bombs on board and they kept those bombs on because the aircraft was going to do the same old place again the next day. But about four o’clock in the morning that aircraft [unclear] bombs blew up and blew the aircraft to pieces and quite a number of other aircraft of A Flight as well. And eh they did a lot of damage, but the following morning the replaced an aircraft in the afternoon and we had an aircraft come in to complete the Squadron again.
GT: It was that quick they replaced them?
PN: They replaced. And funnily enough they came in and em landed at the eh the site for A Flight and out of the aircraft a young women got, a young women came out and she climbed out and she had flown this Lancaster on her own, [emphasis] without any other crew and brought it in from transport. She was an air transport, air transport auxiliary and she’d flown that Lancaster on her own and landed it and delivered it to eh to us. Which was an amazing [chuckles] thing when you think of it.
GT: Huge surprise huh?
PN: Well we looked around for the rest of the crew and she said that ‘I am the crew’ she said, ‘I am the crew.’ And that was it. She was the crew.
GT: And eh
PN: And there was no one else, no one else in the aircraft at all. They, they went in and they looked around to find the rest of the crew and eh they came back and they said, ‘Well there’s no one there.’ She said ‘Well, there won’t be. I am [emphasis] the crew.’ And she went back to Air Traffic Control and eh brought the aircraft in and that was it. She just landed it on her own.
GT: So those aircraft that blew up?
PN: Yes, there was quite a lot of them eh on A Flight and B Flight. They, they all suffered damage from this aircraft that blew up at four o’clock in the, well they had [unclear] bombs on. Four thousand pounders and they all blew up and they damaged a lot of the aircraft.
GT: And you, you were in bed at the time? Did you hear it, feel it?
PN: I did and I shot out of bed. We thought that we were being bombed and eh that we were being under attack. But eh
GT: Pretty much an own goal?
PN: Yes. But it wasn’t eh [mumbles] it wasn’t that at all.
GT: But no one was hurt. That was the [unclear]
PN: No. No.
GT: But you managed to find some bits and pieces.
PN: Yeah. I did and I’ve collected an axe, an escape axe that there was lying there. It was lying on the ground. So I captured that and eh I’ve got it to this day.
GT: You still have it and you’ve just showed it to me. So that’s, that’s very good. That was, that was normally where on the Lancaster? Where did that axe normally sit? What position?
PN: Well, there were two, there were two. There was one bolted on to the side, of the starboard side of the aircraft and there’s one on the rear end eh on the stick before they get into the rear turret, there’s another axe. So there are two axes on each aircraft. I’ve got one of them.
GT: And, and they’re identical. You don’t know which position this one came from?
PN: No. No, no. You don’t know. They’re both identical. But I got one of them. And I’ve got it to this day.
GT: So, in the mid-upper turret position em when you were seated in it you could spin yourself completely and just keep going round and round?
PN: You could, you could [mumbles] cos I did like that.
GT: And, and were the guns positioned so that you couldn’t shoot your own tail?
PN: Ah, yes. I did have a, an interrupter gear. The, the raise that the guns, when they came towards the fins as well, they would raise up automatically and down the other side so that they couldn’t fire at their own tail or rear of, rear of the fuselage or any part of the fuselage. When you turned them round to the front they would raise up above the fuselage and down the other side. They couldn’t eh, it’s an automatic interrupter gear.
GT: How many rounds did you have per gun available to you?
PN: Em, around about three thousand, I think.
GT: Each gun?
PN: Yes. Each gun. And the rear gunner, he had ten thousand, because he had a track going down the fuselage with rounds in them. So he had lots more ammunition than we had, but we had about three thousand per gun.
GT: So the tail gunner had four, three lot threes and you had two.
PN: Yes.
GT: Okay, and so where was your ammunition stored? In boxes underneath your guns?
PN: In a box at the side. Eh, ammunition boxes at either side that fed up to each gun. Yes. Em and the rear gunner he had a track leading down the fuselage and into his turret.
GT: So the guns were right next to your shoulders or your head?
PN: Em, well, I forget now but they were reasonably close to, yes they came up round one side and into the guns themselves.
GT: So you could feel them when they went off, yeah?
PN: Yes. Yes. Yes, they were quite close. But not too close.
GT: And you, you were sitting in the seat or were you suspended?
PN: It was a seat that swung up like em like a [mumbles] swing, that eh you swung it down whilst you were sitting in it. But to get out you would have to swing it up and then get down again to the floor of the aircraft.
GT: Was it comfortable? You might have had to have sit in that way for eight hours or so.
PN: Yes. Sometimes we did indeed sit there for quite a long period. It didn’t, it didn’t worry us. That’s eh that’s [unclear] rear ends. [chuckles]
GT: And, and there was no size restriction, any, any height of a person?
PN: No. No height, em sometimes it got a bit cold in the turret. I did at one time get em the perspex shot away and eh I was out in the cold so I slipped down into the turret with just my eyeballs just above the eh turret then where the perspex should have been and I just kept an eye on any, any other aircraft that might be following us.
GT: And that was in the Lancaster?
PN: Yes.
GT: And, and was this anti-aircraft shrapnel or bullets from another aircraft?
PN: Who knows? I don’t know. Just the perpex just vanished. It might have been shrapnel. It could’ve been shrapnel and it just vanished.
GT: And, and did you em suffer from frostbite on your face?
PN: No, fortunately not. I had a oxygen mask on of course and eh goggles, so eh we, we did get a bit of frostbite where it showed but nothing much.
GT: On the forehead?
PN: Yes. Nothing much. No, the goggles were there and the oxygen mask was there and that protected us a lot.
GT: Now eh if you saw a fighter coming in was it your job to tell the pilot to corkscrew?
PN: Yes. If I was, if I saw one, I did occasionally see one eh I was wait, wait till they got to six hundred yards and then having warned the skipper that we wanted to corkscrew to port or starboard as the case may be, eh I would give a running commentary and eventually ‘Corkscrew. Go.’ And he would then drop a thousand foot and roll and drop another thousand foot and roll and climb a thousand foot and roll and up into his normal position again and that was a corkscrew. And by then the fighter had gone. Don’t know where he’d gone, but he’d gone and eh glad that he’d gone. That’s it.
GT: And Hoot was really good at a corkscrew, was he?
PN: He was excellent. He was really excellent at corkscrewing. He used to await my orders and as I said ‘Go,’ he would go [unclear].
GT: You had em, a couple of different pilots. You had Timmons and Williamson as pilots near the end of your tour.
PN: Yes, because on D, the D Day I had been off sick ah with those ears. Infected eardrums.
GT: Ah, now you thought you had ear wax. [emphasis]
PN: I thought I had earwax. But in fact, the doctor, when he looked he [unclear] he said, ‘No, you’ve got collapsed eardrums.’ And I was in hospital for a while having that repaired and that’s why Hoot gives a carry on to this tour and finished early to me. And I had to then go with another crew to finish my tour ah with other, with other pilots, Williamson, Squadron Leader Williamson was one of them and Timmons eh he was the other one.
GT: And they were short of a gunner so you stepped in?
PN: They, they that’s it, I stepped in then. Yeah. I finished my tour that way.
GT: And of your thirty one trips was there any operation that was, that stood out for you besides shooting down an enemy aircraft? Was anything dang –
PN: Not that I can think of.
GT: Dangerous? Ack ack? Em.
PN: It was always dangerous. It was always dangerous. There was flak coming eh and large amounts of flak bursting all around eh but it didn’t hit us and while it didn’t hit us we were happy. And that was it. But there was lots of flak going on, on the ground and flak coming up through the surrounding air, airspace, lots of fires below, where our bombs were going and when the bomb aimer released the bombs it sounded as if someone was slapping the side of a car. If, if you put your arms out of the car and slapped the side door, that’s what it sounded like when the bombs were released. And they left the aircraft, they banged as they left the aircraft. And the bomb aimer said, ‘Bombs gone,’ and the, about twelve thousand pounds worth of bombs a lot of bombs. So the aircraft eh raised a bit, raised up a bit, being the, having lost that much weight, and so eh that’s how it went on. But I suppose we came to expect that.
GT: Now if we go back to your, your first month on 75 and, and at that time the Stirlings were, well certainly well overdue to be replaced on a, for a front line squadron, I believe 75 NZ was one of the last front line squadrons to be replaced with the Lancaster since they’d already been flying for nearly two years. That was a bit criminal of Bomber Command to let you guys carry on flying the Stirling on that op. But you, you did quite a few gardening trips.
PN: Yes.
GT: What was the gardening trips like compared to later on when you were doing high level bombing?
PN: Ah well, they were much lower and much [mutters] mainly in the places like [unclear] and down in the south of France we laid mines in the eh estuaries, where U-boats were likely to come and be harboured. That was mainly our job on those. Dropping these mines for our action against U-boats.
GT: And what eh, what did the German defences have against you?
PN: Oh, they were quite lively. They were quite lively. There were plenty of flak positions, but then I looked at them and I shot down their beams, straight down the em searchlight beams particularly and it’s quite interesting to see, all of a sudden, the searchlights would suddenly switch off very fast and all way down the flight path, that was because they were getting a good sprinkling of eh my guns. [chuckles].
GT: And you, you could give them a good squirt from your mid-upper position?
PN: Yes. Oh yes, we, yes, we banked, banked a bit over and gave a good squirt of the guns, the guns at the searchlight positions and the searchlights switched off very quickly and the anti-aircraft fire started up quickly. Yes.
GT: So did they have land and sea flak positions, ships, flak ships as well, did they?
PN: I didn’t see any flak ships but eh I imagine there were flak ships about. Yes. I didn’t see any though.
GT: And you said you lost a very valuable friend on one of those gardening trips?
PN: Yes. He was on the third operation to, his third operation to Kiel, laying sea mines like we were. We were on the same operation but em it was our fourth operation and his third operation and he was, they were laying sea mines and a fighter came up from a nearby fighter station and unfortunately shot them down and they were all killed. That was em Megson and his crew, yes, Megson, I think is.
GT: Was your bomb loads all the same on the trips you did? They stuck with cookies and GP bombs?
PN: Yes, about twelve thousand pounds, about twelve thousand pounds altogether. The cookies and em bombs.
GT: What was the furtherest [sic] trip that you remember doing? Was it, was it over to Stettin or Berlin?
PN: Stettin was a long way off. Yes, Stettin, Stettin was about fifty miles north, north east of Berlin. Quite a long way away and took about eight hours altogether.
GT: And that was your third to last op, so you were, you were stretching it right at the end of your tour. Weren’t you?
PN: Yes, that’s quite so.
GT: And, what was, what was the morale like on 75 Squadron for you guys?
PN: It was good and in fact I came back from that particular operation and eh expected to see eh my particular pal, Pat Butler, he was eh living in a, a bed next to, virtually next to me in our hut and people called the Committee of Adjustments came round and collected up all his uniform and they collected up quite a few of my bits too. [emphasis] I, and they were the Committee of Adjustments and they collected up uniform and things like that to, to put them away. And it took me quite some time to get back to them and get my own bits of uniform back [emphasis]. Because they collected them up as well.
GT: So that was a, that was a good idea to make sure before you went on an op all your stuff was packed away nice and neatly, yeah?
PN: Yes, yeah. And eh the Committee of Adjustments came along when someone was shot down and they eh collected all of their possessions. Any eh, if they were talking about a man, they didn’t want any letters from his girlfriend eh, falling into the wrong hands as it were. So the Committee of Adjustments had the job of collecting up any letters like that. Making sure they didn’t fall into the hands of wives and eh others arrangements.
GT: Very wise that.
PN: Yes.
GT: Very wise. During July of 44, 75 Squadron suffered seven aircraft loss in one night.
PN: Yes.
GT: Do you remember that?
PN: Yes. Yes, that was a trip to Hamburg, a trip to Hamburg, and it eh took us quite some time and it was em
GT: Were you on that raid?
PN: Yes, I was on that raid.
GT: Particularly, specifically?
PN: Yes, on the
GT: 20th of July.
PN: Yes, yes, on the Hamburg raid and it was quite a, quite a lively bombing mission but we fortunately got back, we got damaged, we got damaged as we did very often on, on them. And em but we, we got back okay. And we came to land alright. But that was quite a hairy operation, to Hamburg.
GT: And to lose seven in one night must have been pretty devastating to the rest of the Squadron, yeah?
PN: Well, it was em it wasn’t out of the ordinary, we didn’t think too much about it. We, we kept a, we kept a, we expected losses, just as we expected everything else and eh what came, came along. That’s it. That’s part of squadron life. So that’s what you had to do. You might get eh, you might get more [emphasis] than seven going sometimes. Who knows? It was the luck of the draw.
GT: Who was your skipper, eh sorry, your commanding officer, on 75 at that time you were there?
PN: Maxie. Wing Commander Max.
GT: And what was he like?
PN: He was a good bloke, yes a good bloke and em we all liked him. And he used to come round to all the aircraft and have a little chat with them, mainly with the pilots and those others. Before they, before they taxied and went off. He used to drive round and have a little chat with them. Wish them good luck I suppose. But he didn’t [unclear] [chuckles] gunners as well. But he didn’t have time for the gunners. We were there that was all right.
GT: Wing Commander Max’s medal group was donated by his wife to the 75 New Zealand Squadron Association.
PN: Was it really?
GT: And they’re currently on display at the Wigram Airforce Museum in Christchurch, New Zealand, but they are, the property of 75 Squadron Association of New Zealand, so, so just to let you know that em, your, your ex-Commanding Officer’s medals are on display.
PN: On display. Good old Maxie. He was a good bloke, a good bloke was Max. Now I got em I got another set of medals, a second set for one of my sons who is now unfortunately deceased. So there’s a set of my medals, identical to my medals which are going spare, which eh, I would be quite happy to donate to eh.
GT: You eh, you and I can have a chat off microphone.
PN: Yeah. Yes.
GT: Thank you, Peter. Okay, so your, your time on 75 though, you must have gone to some pubs?
PN: What did you say?
GT: Some pubs.
PN: Well,
GT: Go and have a beer or two somewhere?
PN: Very occasionally, I wasn’t a, I wasn’t really a drinking man at all. I didn’t, I didn’t like the stuff really, if the truth were known. I would go to a restaurant to have a nice meal occasionally. But I wasn’t really a beer man, I didn’t like beer. Nasty stuff. [laughter]
GT: Cos there was, there was three main pubs, the Chequers and the Three Pickerels in your area.
PN: Yes, we went to them occasionally but very occasionally, but I wasn’t, I would eh go on the, be there for a, perhaps a few minutes and then nip off back home to bed.
GT: So eh, so did you go to any of the churches or cathedrals around Mepal?
PN: No, I don’t think I did.
GT: There was quite a few of them around there.
PN: Yes, there was Ely, of course, Ely Cathedral.
GT: And there’s Sutton, one at Sutton as well.
PN: Sutton there, yes.
GT: Now, the one at Sutton has eh, the complete casualty em, list of all airmen killed on 75 Squadron.
PN: Have they really?
GT: And they turn the page every day and I do think a copy was made and that is in the Chapel of St. Marks, on my old base, base at [unclear] and the chaplain on that base turns the page every day as well.
PN: Oh, yes, good.
GT: And so, so all your colleagues that were lost in the five years of 75 New Zealand Squadron RAF are remembered every day.
PN: So, Pat Butler’s name would be among them. He was a mid-upper gunner, the same as myself, and he was lost on his third operation to Kiel. Laying sea mines in Kiel canal.
GT: His name will certainly be remembered in this, this book, for sure.
PN: Yes, he was a great bloke.
GT: So next to you was at Mepal, after 75, there was 115 Squadron.
PN: Yes. that’s right. Witchford, on the road to Ely. Yes, they were there. I didn’t know much about them. Passed them on the road there. Often they were going, they were taking off at the same, much the same time as we were. On operations. But I didn’t know much about them.
GT: They, they were very unfortunate, at least on one night, had one aircraft shot down by a Messerschmitt 14, eh as it was coming in to land. Did 75 Squadron have any trouble with night fighters stooging around whilst you were coming in?
PN: We did hear, we did hear, have them occasionally and we had to keep a very close watch out and I can’t recall any being shot down. But eh I believe it did happen on more than one occasion.
GT: As the gunner, was it your responsibility to clean and fit the guns, or was that the armourers?
PN: No, I did mine, I did my guns. I did. The armourers could, would do them, but I, I used to do mine, look after my own guns and cleaned my own perspex, to make sure that my perspex was cleaned, in the top turrets.
GT: How did you clean your outside perspex? Did you have a door through the canopy or did you have to get out on the fuselage?
PN: I used to get out. There wasn’t, I think, [mumbles] there wasn’t a place where you could get out on to the front of the fuselage and there was em perspex polish that I could use, and I did, to make sure that my perspex was cleared and clean on the inside as well. If there was a scratch, the searchlight would hit us, a scratch and would split [unclear] effect. It was no good, so I made sure my perpex was clear.
GT: Like a prism mm.
PN: Mmm.
GT: With your training that you did as an air gunner eh, did that, eh when you look back at sitting in a Lancaster turret and doing operations, did that training, was that good enough, did that do the job to prepare you?
PN: Oh yes. Oh yes. Em and I used to keep very close watch on all those around me. I used to spin the turret around and make sure I saw, and I used to ask the skipper occasionally as we heard, to dip his wings down one way, or dip down the other way, so that I could search underneath the aircraft in case there was anything creeping up underneath. But eh that’s how you got on.
GT: And you had good coordination with the tail gunner? Did you talk a lot between you?
PN: We didn’t talk a lot but eh if occasionally em it was necessary to confer we used to. But we didn’t talk a lot really.
GT: And if you
PN: We were very good friends on the ground.
GT: Good yeah.
PN: Yes, we were very good friends on the ground [unclear] and myself were great pals on the ground.
GT: What was the radio talk like? Was it ‘skipper’, ‘rear gunner’, ‘mid upper’? You didn’t say your names did you?
PN: No, didn’t say your names but say, say your position. ‘Mid upper to skipper’, or something of that sort. And he would say, ‘Go ahead, go ahead mid upper’, and you would pass a message to him.
GT: And was, Hoot, Hoot was the flight sergeant em when you joined up together as a crew and then he was commissioned, so
PN: Yeah.
GT: So, so did the commissioning matter to you guys?
PN: No, not at all.
GT: You were a senior NCO and a, and a pilot officer or an officer.
PN: Yes, didn’t make, didn’t make any difference. He was still Hoot Gibson.
GT: But you couldn’t go and drink together in the same mess?
PN: Oh no, no, no. No. We had that, there was that difference. He was a commissioned officer after all. But it didn’t make that difference.
GT: And you were a flight sergeant at that time?
PN: Yes.
GT: Did you want your, did you want a commission as well?
PN: Ah yes I did, but eh but for some reason I didn’t go for it.
GT: You weren’t offered it?
PN: Yes. I can’t remember what exactly it was. [unclear] he was getting commissioned.
GT: As a tail gunner? Wow.
PN: Yes, he became commissioned. But I can’t remember just exactly the circumstances. He was like that later on he became commissioned.
GT: So, your time with 75, em and, and you thoroughly enjoyed?
PN: Oh yes. Oh yes. I was there until I done my, how I, how I had to do thirty one operations I don’t know but I did and I got posted away to, funnily enough, back to Dalcross where I’d done my training.
GT: Your training. So, so when you were posted, what did they say? ‘Right you’re off!’ No fanfare. Just
PN: Oh no.
GT: Called you into the office and said, ‘So right, you’re next, you’re leaving.’ Is that it?
PN: Oh yes. Yes. Just you posted. Yes.
GT: And that would be at the end of eh August?
PN: It would, yes, I think it would.
GT: Your last operation was August the 25th and that completed thirty one ops. You had a hundred and thirty six hours during the day and a hundred and twenty hours of night and em that’s a pretty, that’s a pretty great record there Peter. So your, your log book states that you moved on to Dalcross at 2 AGS and there you were flying in Martinets. [emphasis]
PN: Yes, that’s right.
GT: What were they [emphasis] like?
PN: [chuckles] They were a fighter aircraft, they were like a fighter aircraft as far as I was concerned. But we used to em, had to virtually em they had a real [unclear] of you might call cords really. Then we had to almost stretch out of the aircraft to thread through pulleys and fix them on to the drogue for other aircraft to shoot at.
GT: And so the Martinet was a drogue towing aircraft?
PN: That’s right. Yes.
GT: So you didn’t deploy the drogue until you were in the air?
PN: That’s right. And then you had to bend and you were half way out of the, of the aircraft hooking the drogue on.
GT: This was a hole in the floor of the aircraft?
PN: Yes. Yes.
GT: So how long was the hoars of the rope? Eh, the
PN: About eight hundred, eight hundred yards or something like that.
GT: Was that a safe, safe distance?
PN: Yeah. Safe enough. Yes. Safe enough. Yes.
GT: And what were the gunners and eh, of the aircraft taking the drogue?
PN: They, they did occasionally fire and hit the drogue towing aircraft thinking it was, thinking that was what they had to aim at.
GT: That’s friendly fire.
PN: Yeah. They, they used to do a quick dive away then, but eh mainly that was alright and you could tell in the drogue you could count up the bullet holes because the bullets had got paint under them of some sort. They were coloured.
GT: Did they have a fight over who, who was, what hole was [unclear] [chuckles]
PN: No, I don’t think so.
GT: All good. And therefore you went, that was in eh November?
PN: Yes.
GT: And so you had a little break in between leaving end of August, so you had September, October off?
PN: Yes.
GT: Where did, what did you do there? Did you, did you go back home for a bit?
PN: Eh, I went, I did, I was, I can’t remember exactly what I did.
GT: But you did have a bit of a rest though didn’t you?
PN: But em anyway, I made sure that eh I counted the months and eh while there was only four months and then I went back on the Squadron again.
GT: Aah. Okay, so, so that was 2 AGS at Dalcross and we’re still on the Martinet and Martinet right through to January and eh and in February you moved on to Number 2 GSU on Mitchells.
PN: That’s right. Yes.
GT: As an air gunner, so you were, you were ramping up on the B25.
PN: That’s right.
GT: Were you the mid upper gunner for there too?
PN: Rear gunner.
GT: Rear gunner on the B25.
PN: Rear gunner on the, yeah. And eh you didn’t have a seat to sit on, you sort of eh, virtually on your knees, half on your knees, half sat, sat on the sloping seat. Not a very comfortable position at all. And you had two point fives I think in the rear turret.
GT: Now, the point five was a little bit more heavier than the three nought threes.
PN: It was indeed.
GT: More punch and distance?
PN: Yes, and the you see what happened.
GT: Well now, obviously for the recording eh Peter had a bit of a close escape here, and I’m holding a fifty cal shell eh minus the head and eh there’s a big hole in the side of it. Peter, what happened to you there and this was in the rear turret of a B25, yeah?
PN: Yes, that’s right and it was quite, that, it was quite close to, the bomb was quite close to my shoulder and em the armourer, when we came back, I didn’t know about it, while we were airborne, but the armourer came to me and said, ‘Would you like this as a souvenir?’ and at that time it had a shrapnel inside of it and the, the bullet too. Em but unfortunately, while examining it, my son, the little bit of shrapnel that had caused the hole, put it in the dust, in the ashtray and it got lost. And eh so I don’t, I, I searched for the, I think it was about ten days afterwards that I found it was missing and I searched for the, that little bit of shrapnel, but I couldn’t find it, unfortunately.
GT: Well, it’s very fortunate, [emphasis] for you Peter, that you’ve been able to keep the shell and eh it also has an official RAF photograph tucked with it.
PN: And the [unclear] at the bottom end you notice that it hadn’t been fired.
GT: That’s true, yeah, yeah. The firing element at the base there’s eh, there’s no pin impression so that’s, that’s a special piece of history right there for you.
PN: Yes.
GT: Fabulous. Alright Peter, now, you, you’re suffering badly from eh, from your knees.
PN: Arthritis.
GT: And arthritis, but [emphasis] you were talking to me earlier about your kneeling position of a B25 rear gunner.
PN: Yes.
GT: And can you attribute your current problems with knees back to that?
PN: I wouldn’t be at all surprised. I wouldn’t be at all surprised because you were sort of half on your knees, half sitting on a sloping, a sloping seat.
GT: Gosh.
PN: And it could well have been that em that was the cause of the arthritis.
GT: Well you started flying B25s in March 45 and eh you completed more operations in, in the end of April. Now your trips here in your log book for your Mitchell flights are anywhere between one and, and one and two and three quarter hours. So you were flying from em 98 Squadron. Where were they based and, and where did you go from there for more ops?
PN: Now. 98. Yes, I, oh I can’t remember the dates. Is it not in the book? On top of the table? The places that we went to? I do know the name of the aerodrome but I can’t remember it.
GT: Farfield. So you, so your log book is very well presented, of course, and you’ve got a lot of trips there across to Bremen, em certainly into Germany em and beyond. So, so that’s very impressive. So during your, your flights in the Mitchells, did you have any opposition from the German em Luftwaffe?
PN: Em, we did, and eh I can’t remember the exact details, but we, we eh got flak, flak as much as anything. We had to dodge the flack because we’d got anti-aircraft fire bursting near us, a lot of anti-aircraft fire bursting near us.
GT: How many bombs did you carry?
PN: Eh, oh, I couldn’t say.
GT: It wasn’t a very big bomb load for a B25?
PN: Eh, no, about, about eight or eight or so five hundred pounders probably. I’m not quite sure.
GT: And this was an RAF squadron flying American aircraft?
PN: Second Tactical Aircraft, yes, Second tact.
GT: So what was it like flying an American designed aircraft compared to the English Stirling and Lancaster?
PN: Uncomfortable.
GT: Uncomfortable.
PN: Yeah. Uncomfortable.
GT: It didn’t go very –
PN: On you knees, you see. You were on your knees and the seat sloped and you had your bottom on the, on the seat, and you were half on your knees and eh it wasn’t a comfortable position, wasn’t a very comfortable position at all. But there you are, that was, that was hard luck. And em we did quite a, did quite a few to Bremen if I remember rightly, quite a few to eh yes, the city of Bremen and em they were quite lively, a lot of flak coming up.
GT: It must have been low level, was it?
PN: Em, not really low level.
GT: Oh, no? You were still up high?
PN: Still, still, yes, fairly high I think. I can’t quite remember these details now.
GT: And what was your crew like? For the B25s
PN: There was about five members of a crew in the B25s.
GT: All English?
PN: As far as I know, yes. Ah, yes I think so, yes. They were. Yes. I do mention their names.
GT: Now your, your last operation with eh 98 Squadron was the end of April and then you moved through as passengers in May and you, you began a second trip, tour in, in June as the rear gunner and eh also did some trips, through, as passengers to look over Germany and in July. So you certainly got around for a little bit after that.
PN: Yes.
GT: So tell us a bit more about the eh, okay, the –
PN: I was stationed in Germany.
GT: Ah, there you go. So VE Day, what happened with you on 98 Squadron on VE Day and what did you do after?
PN: So, yes, I remember VE day.
GT: You went to Germany after that was it, directly, or did you stay in England?
PN: [mumbles] Difficult to remember. I think I was, I think I was stationed in Germany at that time. I think, yes, I think, I can remember we were living in tents and all of a sudden the CO of that Squadron popped down and said, ‘It’s all over, chaps. It’s all over!’ and [unclear] drinking his own champagne. And didn’t invite us in at all. And that was the end of the war. And we were in Germany at that time, living in tents. Aachen [?] Yes.
GT: Did you stay on?
PN: We went to Brussels. We took, we took, we went by an aircraft. We took an aircraft into Brussels, but I didn’t think much to that. And eh visited a short time and we came back, back to Aachen [?] again, and stayed there. Didn’t think much to it. It was all over as far as we were concerned and that was it.
GT: So did you want to stay in the RAF? Or did you look at demobbing or?
PN: No, I was demobbed soon after and em I did various civilian jobs and eh basically I got sick of them and went back into the Airforce again after a fairly short time.
GT: As an air gunner?
PN: Yes, eh I was an air gunner instructor this time. I was instructing.
GT: And your log book says in 1951 you were at 230 OCU in Scampton?
PN: Yeah.
GT: In Scampton?
PN: Yes.
GT: As an air gunner exercise so em that was from February
PN: I was instructing then.
GT: And what aircraft were you with?
PN: I think Lincolns.
GT: Lincolns?
PN: I think Lincolns and then Shackletons and finally Neptunes. Yes.
GT: Yes, you have a lot of entries here from being in Lincolns. What was the Lincoln like compared to the Lancaster?
PN: Bigger. And that’s all, apart from that. [mumbles] Yes, they were bigger. A bigger version of the Lancaster.
GT: And the Lincolns had fifty cal? Half inch? Did the Lincolns have the bigger gun systems?
PN: As far as I know, yes, I think so.
GT: And you moved on from three nought threes. Yeah?
PN: Yes.
GT: And then you moved on to 9 Squadron at Binbrook?
PN: Yes, at Binbrook.
GT: And you become crew, you become part of a crew then, were you then? Is that what you were doing?
PN: I think so, I can’t remember. It’s difficult to remember. It’s a long time ago, as you know.
GT: No, that, that’s fine there, Peter. So we’re just moving through and eh you, you were em just working through on the Lincolns right through to 1952 and em with, with your changes you moved into Coastal Command?
PN: Yes, Shackletons. Oh, yes, low flying over the sea doing searches and things like that.
GT: What was the Shackleton like, as an aircraft to fly in?
PN: It was much, it was something like, something like a Lancaster but fatter. You know, it was a bigger, bigger fuselage than the other one. It was much like a, much like a Lincoln.
GT: Now what em, what caused you to finish up in the RAF then? You’d had enough again do you think or?
PN: Yes, yes I did instructing for a while. I was instructing on various subjects and then I came out, I think, I think, I came out and took, took my pension. To get a pension and em I came out and got a pension.
GT: Well, some of your last entries in your log book eh Peter, are at Kinloss em with, with Shacks and eh and then eh you’ve got a P2 Neptune entry here as well.
PN: Eh [mumbles]
GT: In mid 56.
PN: Yes, it was actually the islands, Benbecula for a while. That’s not even mentioned in there, I think, but I was [pauses] just at Benbecula for a while, which is one of the Outer Hebridean islands. But not for any reason.
GT: Yeah. So then you moved down to Singapore for a while. Tell me a, tell me a little bit about that, please, because that was in the mid, early sixties there when you went to Singapore.
PN: Ah yes. Yes.
GT: Was that with the RAF?
PN: Yes, oh yes. And em, Singapore. I think I had a crew there.
GT: And you were doing the administrative stuff? You were?
PN: Oh yes, I was doing admin as well, yes. Instructing em, instructing.
GT: And there was a [unclear]
PN: [unclear] yes. Um I think I was doing instructing as well as doing –
GT: And so that was after the confrontation eh had finished?
PN: More or less I think, yes. Instructing em discip. I was a flight sergeant discip there too. Yes. Various jobs yeah.
GT: Various jobs. Now, you, you were married and had children by then?
PN: Yes, I had been married, I got married in 1962, think it was 62 and unfortunately em my first wife died in 1969. She got breast cancer and she died in 1969. But see we had a tour in Singapore and she quite enjoyed that. So she did have some good life there.
GT: Nice. And you moved back to the UK then?
PN: And we came back in 1966 and then eh we were, she was ill for two or three years and she died in 1969.
GT: No children?
PN: No children. Well, previously we had had four, four sons but long before you know and the eldest which is the one who’s birthday it is today, they were born 50, he was born in 54, 1954 and the last one was born in 1958. Yeah.
GT: Pretty tough to lose their mum a little bit later. And so then you, you remarried later?
PN: Yes. Two or three years afterwards. Yes.
GT: And so, you, you’ve lost two em
PN: And I’ve lost her too.
GT: Several years ago.
PN: Yes.
GT: And, and what did you do after the RAF, Peter? How did, how did that go?
PN: Em I did do, em, what did I do? I engraved [?] a house, do something, engraved [?] a house. I forget now. I forget
GT: Peter, you’ve, you’ve got a lot of memories here and a lot of archives from your time
PN: Yeah.
GT: Especially with Bomber Command.
PN: Yes.
GT: And that’s pretty special. And eh now I’ve known you for some years now and popped in to see you from my trips from New Zealand here to the UK so I’m eh, I’m quite honoured today really to sit and chat with you about your [emphasis] Bomber Command time and your life, a bit of history. This recording will go to the Bomber Command archives and eh and I know that they will gratefully receive your information and your recollections and memories.
PN: Sketchy as they are.
GT: Sketchy as they are. No problem at all, no problem for us, Peter. Is there something that you would like to make one last comment about Bomber Command? Your time, the war, that had to be done, that could have been done any different?
PN: I don’t think so. I was very lucky to have eh, to have a skipper, Hoot Gibson. He was a great, a great pal and a great flyer [coughs]. And we got on very well with him, and the crew for that matter. It was very unfortunate that the navigator, Bill [unclear] unfortunately, he was in a hurry to get home to New Zealand, chose to hitchhike with an American crew, which crashed.
GT: Wrong, wrong choice.
PN: Killing them all. Yes, killing them all. Unfortunately.
GT: Peter, look em I think it’s fabulous of you to be able to sit with me today. Thank you for this interview and it’s been a pleasure being in your company and presence in your house today and I’m gonna say thank you from the IBCC for your recollections. And eh I think we, we can close the interview now if that’s okay with you.
PN: I think so, yes. Sketchy as it might be in places. You’ll have to pick out the bits and pieces. Of course, I mean I’m ninety, getting on for ninety four and memory does tend to get a little bit sketchy at times at that age. But I’ve done my best. Tried to remember the best I can.
GT: Thank you for your service to your King, your country and now your Queen. It is much appreciated. Thank you.
PN: Okay. Good.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Peter Rowland Ruthven Neech. Two
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Glen Turner
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ANeechPRR180705, PNeechPRR1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:08:10 audio recording
Language
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eng
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Description
An account of the resource
Peter was born on the 7th of January 1925, in West Hampstead, London. He worked in a jewellers in Hammersmith and left his job to join the air cadets at RAF Hendon from 1941 to 1943. On his eighteenth birthday, he joined the RAF to begin training as an air gunner, this took him to RAF Dalcross, Scotland, where he completed his training in July 1943. On arriving home on leave, he found his family home damaged after a German bombing attack. In December 1943, Peter trained on Wellingtons and Stirlings at No.11 Operational Training Unit, RAF Westcott, where he was picked to join 75 Squadron, as a mid-upper gunner by Sergeant Donald George ‘Hoot’ Gibson. After flying Stirlings for his first month, the crew trained for Lancasters at 1651 Conversion Unit, 75 Squadron then moved to RAF Mepal, and in April 1944 they converted to Lancasters. Peter completed thirty-one operations with 75 Squadron. In August, he returned to RAF Dalcross, to fly in Martinets which towed targets for aircraft practice. After taking a short break, he joined 98 Squadron in March 1945, and flew B-25’s as a rear gunner until VE Day. He took part in gardening operations, which involved low flying to drop sea mines on estuaries in France to prevent U-Boat attacks. Towards the end of the war, Peter shot down a Ju 88, after it came too close, his only claimed kill of the war. Peter continued his flying career with the RAF post-war, as an air gunner with Lincolns, Lancasters, and Shakletons, and then joined Coastal Command at RAF Benbecula until he retired in 1956. In the 1960s, Peter moved to Singapore to be an instructor, married in 1962, but his wife passed away in 1969 and he remarried a few years later.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jennie Mitchell
Tricia Marshall
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
11 OTU
1651 HCU
1657 HCU
75 Squadron
98 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-25
bombing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lincoln
Martinet
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
RAF Dalcross
RAF Mepal
RAF Westcott
searchlight
Shackleton
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1063/11519/AParkerE160505.2.mp3
921dd41f7f0eb7cf7f983979dcc2aa64
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1063/11519/PParkerE1603.1.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Parker, Eric
E Parker
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Eric Parker (b. 1924, 1522919 Royal Air Force), a photograph and a biography. He flew operations as a navigator with 12 and 166 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Eric Parker and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Parker, E
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EP: A child then up to eighteen.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
EP: And then going in the RAF.
GR: Right. This is Gary Rushbrooke for the International Bomber Command Centre at Lincoln. I am today with Eric Parker at his home in Formby, Merseyside and the date is the 5th of May 2016. Right then, Eric, I know we’re in Formby, was you born round here? Are you from this area?
EP: I was born on the 10th of January 1924 in West Derby, Liverpool. In those days West Derby was a small detached village joined to the main City of Liverpool by a tramway.
GR: Oh right.
EP: And I went to the local village school, which was St Mary’s Church of England School, very adjacent to the big church, which lays right in the middle of West Derby village. I was at the school, it was a boy’s only side of the school, there was a girl’s department on the other side. I was in the school for — ‘til I was fourteen and I left and took up work immediately, as everybody did in those days.
GR: Did you have any brothers or sisters at the same, at the time?
EP: I had two brothers. One named Sydney and one named Reginald. They were both older than me.
GR: Both older brothers.
EP: So, I was the junior in the family. My first job was a lift attendant in a national bank, a seven storey building, which was a skyscraper in its day, in Liverpool. And as a lift attendant, I attended to all the needs of the staff who worked in the various offices, going to toilets and things like that. And I was there for about a year but I’d always wanted to be an apprentice electrician, and an opening came up, and I went down and got the job as apprentice electrician for seven and six a week. This was a drop in my wages, because in the lift attendant I was getting fourteen shillings a week.
GR: Right.
EP: Which was a very big wage for the time.
GR: And a big drop in wages to seven and six.
EP: However, I didn’t last long as an apprentice electrician because one day, the owner of the business wanted me to work on a Saturday, on a special job, and I said, ‘I’m sorry Mr Carling’, that was his name, ‘I can’t do this because I’m going into Liverpool to see “Robin Hood and His Merry Men of Sherwood”, at the Paramount Cinema’. He said, ‘Oh very good. Very good’. he said, ‘Enjoy it then, and you can take your cards at the same time’. So for a while I was on the, on the, not on the dole, I wasn’t old enough to get dole. I was, had to go to the dole school, and I did a bit of time there in the workshops, on metalwork and I learned quite a lot about metalwork. But I did have a small job in between, when I went to Hunter’s Handy Hams in Broadgreen, where they were canning bacon for the troops. And I spent about three weeks there doing a casual labour, and it was quite hard work. I was carrying these cans ready to be boiled and tinned.
GR: Yeah. Had war broken out by then?
EP: The war had broken out by this time. And I was on the dole, not the dole, unemployed.
GR: Yeah.
EP: I should say, for several months. My dad got a bit fed up. He said, ‘Get out and get a job. Can’t be having you doing nothing all day. We need money in the house’, because he was a farm labourer, and he wasn’t on a very big wage. So, lo and behold, in the newspapers in Liverpool, the Liverpool Echo, there came an advert for student gardeners, that meant they would learn all about gardening and would spend one week — one day a week, in the Liverpool Technical College, learning soil science and hygiene and various botanical things. All about gardening. And I was in, I was posted to Newsham Park, in the greenhouses there, I was there for a year. And then the following year, they posted me to a place called Harbreck Farm, near Fozakerley Hospital at the time, and I was there for another year and it was very hard work. And by this time, I’d reached the age of seventeen and a half years, and the war was, the phoney war was at its height, and they were looking for aircrew, young people to go in aircrew. Volunteers. So, I was seventeen and a half at this time, this was in June of 1941, so along with my friend, we volunteered for aircrew and we was posted on deferred service and was called up, finally, in the January of 1942.
GR: Right. Had your two brothers gone into the Forces?
EP: Well, both brothers went into the Army.
GR: Right.
EP: And they served — one served in Italy. I tell a lie. My other brother — one of my brothers went to Italy, served in Italy. My other brother, Syd, went into the Air Force, but he was invalided out with stomach trouble, so he only had a short six months of service.
GR: Right.
EP: So that left me as the young one. So, in 1942, January, I was called up and my first posting was to the Aircrew Recruiting Centre in London, and we lived in one of the big luxury flats there.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Stopney Hall, I think it was called.
GR: Yeah. That was St John’s Wood and Lord’s Cricket Ground.
EP: Around St John’s Wood and Lord’s
GR: Yeah.
EP: That’s correct. I was there for about three weeks while we got our, my jabs and all the other things, all recorded and things like that, and finally, I was posted on a three week course, learning Morse code and semaphore — to Brighton. And that lasted three weeks where we learned, we became quite proficient at Morse code and semaphore flags, and from there, I was posted to Paignton in Devon, to a twelve week course of ITW, Initial Training Wing.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And there, we learned all the ins and outs of aircrew.
GR: Did you know what you were going to be then or –?
EP: At his time, we were posted as PNB. Could have been a pilot, could have been a navigator, or we could have been a bomb aimer.
GR: Oh, so it was one of the three. Yeah.
EP: Of that three, you were automatically put on a pilot’s course, and having finished our ITW, was posted on a grading school, on Tiger Moths, to a little airfield named Sywell, which was near Leicester.
GR: Yeah.
EP: If I remember. And there we did twelve hours flying on Tiger Moths, and we all went to Canada, and all those who had passed the flying school, including me, were made — were put on a pilot’s course in Canada, and I went to a place called Caron, near Moose Jaw, in Saskatchewan. However, I wasn’t very good as a pilot and I scrubbed out after about twelve flying hours on Cornell aircraft, Fairchild Cornells. Single engine monoplane.
GR: Yeah.
EP: So, there I was, no longer on the pilot’s course, but sent to a holding unit in Brandon, Manitoba and I was there for a couple of months, waiting for a pilot —for a navigator bombardiers course to come through. And one came, finally came through, and I was posted to Mountain View, Ontario, on a twelve week bombing and gunnery course, having been reselected now as a navigator bomb aimer.
GR: Right. What was life like in Canada? What was —
EP: Well, life was grand in Canada. Everything was as it was in Civvy Street in Britain.
GR: Before the war.
EP: White bread for the first time. Actually crossed, it took seven days to get across Canada by rail, slept on the train, and everywhere, every station we landed at, there was a big reception committee, giving us all sorts of goodies. And we finally got to Caron, in Moose Jaw, probably in the Easter of 1943.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And finally — anyway, later in that year, I got on the NavB course at Mountain View. Did the Nav, did the bombing and gunnery side of the course, that was very interesting, and then I was posted on a twelve week navigation course to St John’s in Quebec, and that was quite interesting. And then, finally, we ended the course in the end of ’44, got my wings and was posted home again by sea. We went to Canada, by the way, on the Empress of Scotland, one of the Empress lines.
GR: That’s one of the cruise liners, wasn’t it?
EP: One of the cruise liners of the day, yeah. There was a lot of Empress liners we used as troop ships.
GR: And how did you get back?
EP: And I came back on the Empress of Scotland as well.
GR: Oh right.
EP: And I was posted to Harrogate, where we were just on a holding unit there for about a couple of weeks, and I was posted to AFU at Silloth in Scotland. And that was [pause], I’m trying to think how long. A month’s course, I think it was.
GR: Yeah.
EP: It was getting familiar with England. Flying over England.
GR: Yes, because you’d done your training in Canada. You needed to [pause] —
EP: So we were on Ansons there, map reading and doing those, sort of, cross country things, and finally, I was posted off that, onto an Advanced Flying Unit. After the Advanced Flying Unit, I was posted to OTU at Husband’s Bosworth, that was on Wimpies, and it was a twelve week course there. Conversion unit onto Bomber Command.
GR: Right. When did you actually crew up? When did you meet –?
EP: We crewed up at OTU.
GR: Right.
EP: All the crew, except for the engineer.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And so we crewed up there, and did the usual stuff, bombing and gunnery, cross-country’s.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Bombing raids, artificial bombing raids. And finally –
GR: Still lots of training.
EP: Lots of training. Lots of training. Twelve weeks, I think it was. We were posted to a six weeks conversion course on Lancasters.
GR: Yeah.
EP: At Gainsborough. I can’t remember the name of the airfield there. Near Gainsborough anyway.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
EP: And we did the six week course there. We picked up our flight engineer, and from there on, we were posted down to Wickenby on 12 Squadron.
GR: So when did you actually find out you were going to a squadron? Was that at the end of the Lancaster Finishing School?
EP: End of Conversion Unit.
GR: Yeah.
EP: They said, ‘You’re posted to 12 Squadron, Wickenby.’
GR: Yeah.
EP: I said, ‘Where’s that?’ They said, ‘Just the outside of Lincoln’. And it’s an RAF squadron.
GR: Yeah.
EP: With a few continental — a few other members from the empire [unclear].
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
EP: So, when we got there, after a couple of days settling in —
GR: Did you fly down or did you make your way there in a car?
EP: Made our way by —
GR: Car. Bus. Train.
EP: By train.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Train and bus.
GR: Right.
EP: Bussed us in. And [pause] where am I?
GR: So, you’ve arrived at Wickenby. First day at Wickenby.
EP: They gave us a couple of days to settle in, then one day, the wing commander, flying, said, ‘I want you all’, and by that time, all the other aircrews had mingled in. Signallers, gunners, bomb aimers and we mingled in. They said, ‘I want you all in the big hangar tomorrow’. There must have been a couple of hundred aircrew bods, so, ‘I want you all in’, and he said, he came in and said, ‘You’re all here now, so I want you to mingle and form a crew. I’ll be back in a couple of hours. If you haven’t formed a crew by then, from each other by mingling, I’ll put you all together. Whoever’s left’. So, I was sat around, had coffee, the NAAFI was there, you know, and this big, gangling New Zealander came across to me. He said, ‘Hello’. he said, ‘My name’s Alec Wicks’, he said, ‘I’m from New Zealand. I wondered, would you like to be in my crew?’ So I said, ‘Oh yes. I’d love to’. He said, ‘Well, I’ve got a couple of crew members already, two other New Zealanders’. So, we’d got Snowy White. He had blond hair. Snowy White.
GR: Snowy.
EP: Snowy, and he said, ‘We’ve also got Tacker Connelly’, who was a dark, semi Maori, half Maori. He said, ‘We’ve already got them, but we’ll go around now and hunt out a signaller and two gunners’, because we’d got the bomb aimer.
GR: So, at the moment, it was three New Zealanders and one Brit.
EP: One Brit. And we found two Londoners, real Cockney eastenders.
GR: Yeah. Right.
EP: Two Londoners and, of course, the front gunner was the bomb aimer.
GR: Yeah.
EP: That made up the six of the crew, and we didn’t get the engineer, but we carried on doing all our crew work.
GR: Yeah.
EP: All the training and flights and bomb aiming, and all that sort of thing. And we were like that until we were posted to the Heavy Conversion Unit, where we got on to Lancasters again.
GR: And that’s when you needed the flight engineer.
EP: That’s when the flight engineer joined us. I tell a lie. On the Con Unit, we got a brand new Lancaster. Did you get that?
GR: Yeah. It doesn’t matter. Yeah.
EP: On the Con Unit. And then the engineer joined us then. His name was [pause] God, I’ve forgotten his name.
GR: We’ll come back to that later. Not a problem. So, what was the first day at Wickenby like?
EP: First day we just —
GR: Bearing in mind, you’re on a Bomber Command base.
EP: We did our marching in orders, got our arrival certificates. Tried to get a bike, but there was none available. And we were posted to the sergeant’s mess. The skipper, as I said, was a flight sergeant, so was the bomb aimer
GR: Yeah.
EP: And so was the wireless operator.
GR: Yeah.
EP: They were ahead of us. We were sergeants, the rest of us.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And we settled in to the mess and we got, as I say, we got into the big hangar, and we crewed up, and I always remember this. When the, when the wing commander, flying, came back, we were all in crews. There was a couple who weren’t crewed and he said, ‘You go with him’, ‘You go with him’, ‘You go with him’.
GR: That’s it. Done.
EP: Yeah. Done. ‘Now, I want you all in one long line’, and we all crewed up. He said, ‘Now, I want you to look at the man next to you’. So, we looked at him. The one fella looks at the one to the left or right, you know, we looked at each other. He said, ‘I’m going to tell you now, one of you, who you are looking at, is not coming back’, he said, ‘You’ll be killed on ops. It’s a fifty percent loss rate’. So he said, ‘Any of you, it’s all voluntary, any of you don’t want to carry on with ops, take a step forward’. Not one.
GR: Not one.
EP: So, he said, ‘That’s it then’, and so we went on ops. On our first trip, the pilot went on an experience trip on his own.
GR: Yeah.
EP: With a tap crew.
GR: Yeah, like a second dickey, yeah.
EP: He went as a second dickey.
GR: Yeah.
EP: So, he went to the big Dresden night.
GR: Right.
EP: And he came back the next night and he said it was great, you know, because it was great as well. The Yanks had been there during — well, we went the first time.
GR: Yeah, and the Americans bombed in the daytime.
EP: Daytime, the next day. So, the next night went in, we were all on ops. The first trip was Chemnitz, which was about thirty miles away from Dresden.
GR: Yeah.
EP: I’ll always remember the briefing.
GR: Its quite a long trip as well, isn’t it?
EP: It was a long trip, about a quarter of an hour less than the Dresden.
GR: The Dresden.
EP: I always remember the intelligence officer, who gave you your briefing.
GR: Yeah.
EP: When we into the, into the briefing room, he got up, he said, ‘Tonight’s op is to Chemnitz. There’s no target, you just bomb the TIs. Bomb anywhere in the city. There’s no targets at all’. He said, ‘We’ve got notification from reconnaissance planes, that thousands of refugees are streaming from Dresden, there’s thousands of them, so bomb them’. That was it, there was no target, just —
GR: Yeah. Just bomb Chemnitz.
EP: Just bomb the city. And so, we bombed the city.
GR: How did you feel about that as a bomb aimer?
EP: It was great. We were stupid kids at the time.
GR: Yeah, and that was the job, and that’s what you’d been told to do, yeah.
EP: That was what we were told to you. Oh great, you know. We just bombed the TIs when they tell us, the master bomber’s going. Bomb the reds, bomb the greens.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Cancel the reds, with the flares down, you know, bomb upwind of the target. Just listen to the master bomber, you know, and then the master bomber occasionally, you’d get, he was flying low level, about two thousand feet above all the bombs, and occasionally you’d hear blank silence. And then a new bloke on, ‘This is master bomber two coming up. Master bomber one has gone down. Don’t know what’s happened to him. Just carry on’. Carry on bombing this.
GR: Yeah.
EP: He just kept a running commentary. Cool as mustard, they were. And so we came back from that. We’d done six ops, various ones, and we were sent — we went on a weeks’ leave every so often.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And you got an extra bit of money from Lord Nuffield. He was the boss of the motor cars, you know.
GR: That’s right. I’ve heard this.
EP: Morris.
GR: Was it something like, if you went on leave, a weeks’ leave, you got an extra pound or two pound off him.
EP: That’s him. Yeah.
GR: And he did it for every Bomber Command veteran.
EP: For every. He gave us two quid, and so we got a couple of quid and we went on our first leave. Oh, and did I tell you we got a brand new aeroplane. Y-Yoke.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Y for Yoke. PHY. Brand spanking new, flown in that, that very day, you know. On the second day, we took it for an air test. Everything was fine, and by this time, we’d done about six ops in Y-Yoke, and we went on leave, and when we came back there was no Y-Yoke.
GR: Gone.
EP: A sprog crew had took it on their first op, and it got shot down. There was no trace of it, no wreckage, nothing at all. It must have just blown up.
GR: Blown up.
EP: ‘Cause the main trouble as I remember it — went outside the towns, it was fighters. Around the big cities, it was flak.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And as you were flying along at night time, you’d suddenly see a big flash in the sky. That was outside the flak zones and it could have been a night fighter attack — shot down, or it could have equally been two aeroplanes colliding.
GR: Colliding.
EP: Because you tried to keep three miles either side of track, it was a designated track. If you keep on it —all well and good. If you keep three miles, they give you a six mile band. It seems a lot, six miles. It’s nothing is it?
GR: Nothing.
EP: And all the aeroplanes are flying down, all trying to keep on their time. So, you had plus or minus three minutes on your target time, and when you were ahead, when you were behind time, you could open the engines up and carry – get speed up, you know, to knock off a few minutes. So you never tried to let your time go more than three or four minutes outside the brief time. At you’re your turning point, you have a mark with a time you should be there.
GR: Yeah.
EP: It was a sort of a zig zag around all the, all the cities, you know, and - where was I? Oh, when you were behind — when you were ahead of time, as I say, you had to lose time.
EP: Yeah.
GR: And you did that by doglegging.
GR: Yeah.
EP: So if you were flying due east, you turned sixty degrees. Fly three minutes across the stream. They’re all going that way, all going east.
GR: Yeah. And you’re going —
EP: And you’re going across them at forty five degrees. Sixty, turn sixty. Then you come back one twenty for three minutes. So you’ve done an equilateral triangle.
GR: Yeah. And then you were back on.
EP: So, you’ve six minutes, so you lost three minutes. That was how you lost time.
GR: That was the way you lost time.
EP: And if you wanted to lose six minutes you do it — you went across track. Back that way for six minutes, across the other side of track, and back the other way. And you lost, that was twelve minutes lost, so you lost six minutes on the two parts of your tracks —
GR: On the track. Yeah.
EP: To get your time. And that’s how you kept time.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And you were allowed to be on target plus, and invariably most people got there within a couple of minutes of the time they should, so it was quite good.
GR: It was quite good. Yeah.
EP: And once you were on the target, you listened to the master bomber, and they had, they had the master bombers on Mosquitos at my time. They were down below, keeping a running commentary, and they had the PFF force, with back-up Lancs, with TIs on board. And they would say, put, the master bomber had put down a green TI down here, say it was a windy, and the smoke was obscuring the target, he’d select a new point outside the smoke and drop another TI. Then the main master bombers in the Lancs, would back them up with further TIs as they died out. And we’d, as bomb aimers, all we did was, bomb doors open, and the old pilot would be keeping straight and level if he could. All the twisting and turning going in. The bomb aimer would be, ‘Left. Left. Steady. Steady. Steady. Steady. Steady. Bombs gone’. And then we had to stay on a straight and level course for about thirty seconds while the camera cut in, and they took a series of photographs, because you got assessed on them when you got back. And then as soon as he said, ‘Photos finished’, revs went up, shot up in the air, got to turn through the target, got the hell out of it as quick as we could.
GR: Get back home.
EP: You were supposed to stick to a very torturous route always, you know, but we always, when we got to the French coast, we always cut the corner there to see who could get back first. It was a straight run back across the North Sea. It was naughty, we weren’t supposed to do it, but everybody did it.
GR: Everybody did it. Yeah.
EP: Trying to get back first. So, we did that right the way through ‘til I got twenty three ops in. And I did. The last two ops we did [pause] — what was the one?
GR: Did you do the one to Berchtesgaden?
EP: I was just going to say the last two ops [pause] was, we did [pause] God. The island.
GR: Walcheren.
EP: No. [pause] Up by the —
GR: Yeah.
EP: Up by Kiel.
GR: Doesn’t matter.
EP: It’s on the record. Went on the last two ops. And then the next day was Berchtesgaden, which was the last op.
GR: That’s right.
EP: And we didn’t go on it, our crew. We were not posted, so I missed the last op.
GR: Missed the last.
EP: It was a gestapo headquarters op on Berchtesgaden.
GR: That’s right. Yeah. So —
EP: Thingy island. Little island. German island. Kiel. Kiel was it?
GR: No. It wasn’t Kiel.
EP: Not Kiel.
GR: We’ll have a look in a minute.
EP: Kiel’s a Canal.
GR: So where was you on VE-day? When the war came to a close?
EP: On VE? I can’t remember.
GR: No. Obviously not on operations. You might have been at Wickenby.
EP: I was at Wickenby.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Certainly. We just had a big booze up in the mess, I think, that’s all.
GR: Did you have any close calls while you were flying?
EP: We had three fighter attacks. One. Two. The first — what you had to do on bomber, on main force, was do two mining raids.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
EP: You did them on your own. You took mines.
GR: Yeah.
EP: You didn’t have the benefit of the main force all come together. You just went out to Kiel Bay and around where the big battleships were.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And for two of those, two of our trips, we got attacked by night fighters. We were sitting ducks for night fighters, because they were single aeroplanes, they could pick them up.
GR: Yeah.
EP: On radar, you know. And in two cases we corkscrewed. You know the –
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
EP: Diving starboard, pulling up and twisting out and we lost both of them. Once you lose them, they’re away and they go and look for another target.
GR: Look for something else. Yeah.
EP: The third one managed to get a burst of machine gun fire, and he took a big hunk out of our left hand tail fin.
GR: Yeah.
EP: But nothing dangerous, you know. We still, still rudder, so we did well.
GR: So, you got back.
EP: And we corkscrewed. So again, there we corkscrewed, we did the same. The gunners were pretty good at picking them up.
GR: Yeah.
EP: They always seemed to come from starboard, starboard stern ahead, starboard beam ahead. Sort of flying — if you’re flying along, they’d be up there.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Higher. And they’d do a curve of pursuit attack, closing in, and you turned into them. That meant they had to get the turn tighter and tighter and tighter. Tighter than they usually got. They turned upside down and broke away underneath you.
GR: Yeah.
EP: That was the topic of a corkscrew, and while that was happening — the first time it happened, I wasn’t prepared for it, we’d never done one. And the gunner said, ‘Starboard. Starboard. Fighter. Fighter. Starboard. Beam up. Prepare to corkscrew. Corkscrew, go. Now’, you know. That was the way they always said that.
GR: Yeah. Corkscrew. Yeah.
EP: Corkscrew port or starboard. If they were starboard, you corkscrewed starboard into them. You always turned into them to make them tight. I shot out of the seat, just literally dropped out the sky. Got the nose down, throttle back and nose down, going down like that, and I shot out of my seat, because we never strapped ourselves in. We were on like a bench seat in the Lanc.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And radar here and radar. You slid along the seat, and all my maps, my charts, everything was loose on the table, went up. I shot out my seat, banged my head on the roof. Everybody else was more or less in the same boat, apart the pilots who were strapped in.
GR: Who were strapped in and knew what they were doing.
EP: The pilot and the engineer.
GR: Yes.
EP: So, we corkscrewed out of three situations, but it was the flak that was the worse stuff, ‘cause as soon as you got into a flak belt, you couldn’t get out of it. Just rattled the fuselage – bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, dong, doiing. Like ping — all the noises, you know. And searchlights would catch somebody, some poor sod would get caught in them, you know. And that was how it went, you know.
GR: So how did you feel at war’s end?
EP: Oh, and then about a couple of weeks before war’s end. The last ops we done.
GR: Yeah.
EP: We were told no more ops, but the war, it was a week before official war ending. They said, ‘They’re starving in Holland. Can’t get any food’. so he said, ‘You will now spend your next week or so, dropping supplies in Holland. So, you’ll be going on Lancasters, and filling the bomb bays up with food’. So, everybody mucked in. Food came in lorries. Flour in loose sacks, all loose stuff, and special panniers were made for stuff that had to be parachuted down. Medical stuff, stuff like that. All the other stuff was loose or tinned stuff which could stand the drop. And we all — if you’re carrying panniers, you open the bomb doors fully to put these things in. If you weren’t carrying panniers, you opened the bomb doors so there was about a foot or just a bit over. You could get up by your shoulders.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And everybody mucked in. Sacks of loose, packed loose. Sugar and flour and any seed. Cornflakes.
GR: Yeah.
EP: All loose in strong sacks. And you got in the bomb bay, and you loaded them on to the bomb doors itself. Just like that.
GR: Just lying flat. Yeah.
EP: Yeah. Just piled them high, and when you — everybody, the aircrew, the whole lot, the CO, the WAAFs, all loading. And when they were full, couldn’t get any without falling off. There were too many, you know.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Skipper would get in and just close the bomb bay and that was it.
GR: It was all there.
EP: And we’d fly over there. Must go over about a thousand feet.
GR: Yeah.
EP: But we went, we all went in about fifty feet, skimming over the church tops, onto the racecourses and dropping them. Now and again a sack would burst, big splurge of white, you know. But —
GR: That was Operation Manna, wasn’t it?
EP: That was Operation Manna.
GR: Where they fed the Dutch.
EP: And we did four. I did four Manna trips. And then they said, oh —it was still wartime, so they said, ‘We’ll allow you to keep these Manna trips as ops’.
GR: Yeah.
EP: ‘You can count them as ops’. So, I ended up with twenty seven ops.
GR: Twenty seven ops.
EP: So, I didn’t get my thirty, and then from then on, we spent all our time flying over the North Sea, dropping bombs. Jettisoning bombs with no pistols in them.
GR: Just to get rid of the —
EP: And ammunition. To get rid of all the big bombs in the bomb sights. The sights where they stored the bombs, you know.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And then finally, oh I didn’t tell you the story. I’ll tell you the story how, how I’ve got the picture there.
GR: I’ll just pause for one second.
[recording paused]
EP: When I told you that Y-Yoke, our plane, had got shot down?
GR: Yes. Earlier on.
EP: We had no aeroplane, so N-Nan had about ninety odd ops then.
GR: Yeah.
EP: It was the standby aircraft on the squadron. it was always there available in case one was u/s. Couldn’t take off.
GR: Yeah.
EP: So you had to change over quick.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Get in to N-Nan.
GR: So the old plane with ninety operations on.
EP: It had ninety ops on. It was given to us and it was a marvellous aeroplane.
GR: Oh good.
EP: And so it, when that was taken, with our ops, it went over the hundred. So every plane in the past was traditional. Every plane in the past that did ops, it was awarded the DFC, so that was the award being awarded, the DFC. We painted a little DFC cross on.
GR: Yeah. We’re just looking at a photograph of Eric, with his crew, in front of N for Nan and they’ve just done the hundredth op. So, yes, they’ve got a DFC painted on top of the picture. Very good. So —
EP: So that was it.
GR: Yeah.
EP: So that brings the story up to date then.
GR: Yeah. Did you do any — bringing back prisoners of war from Italy?
EP: Oh, I’m going to carry on then.
GR: Yeah.
EP: So when, when we finished, finished jettisoning bombs after VE day, a couple of weeks later, the squadrons had virtually finished flying. We were flying all the Lancs up to Silloth, which was near Carlisle.
GR: Yes.
EP: And when they got there, N-Nan was amongst them. They put a big weight on them and just bust them all up and they went on to make kettles and pans [laughs] and various other bits were taken off.
GR: Yeah.
EP: The only thing I’ve got is a pair of War Office scissors, out of the first aid kit. I’ve still got them, they’re around somewhere. And that came out of there, out of the first aid kit.
GR: Excellent. And I know, very briefly Eric, you stayed in the RAF didn’t you?
EP: Yes.
GR: Yeah.
EP: So after the war, sorry, as soon as the war ended, we went on to our operations to Italy to ferry the prisoners of war back.
GR: Prisoners of war back. Yeah.
EP: And we did that for about four trips.
GR: Right.
EP: One of the trips was a bit different as we ferried back twenty WREN nurses.
GR: Nurses.
EP: Twenty nurses. So, it was a bit better that [laughs] and then the war ended. We had a good booze up. The New Zealanders went back to New Zealand or, so I thought.
GR: Yes, because —
EP: And I was posted to a holding unit prior to going on Transport Command, I was awaiting a course at Dishforth on Yorks. So, while I was at this holding unit, I’ve forgotten the name of it now, I got a telephone call one day. I said, ‘Hello’, and a voice with a New Zealand accent said, ‘Hello Eric. I haven’t gone back to New Zealand. I’ve signed on in the RAF’. It was Alec Wicks, my old skipper.
GR: The skipper. The pilot.
EP: He said, ‘I’m going on Transport Command and I’ll be on the next course and I’ve asked for you to be my navigator’. So, I was highly delighted, because he was a good friend as well as a pilot, and we met up again and made a crew up on Yorks. And we flew, first of all on — [pause] what do you call it? Not passenger Yorks. Luggage.
GR: Yeah.
EP: What do they call it?
GR: Freight.
EP: Freight.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Freighters. My memory’s going.
GR: Don’t worry. No, your memory’s been great, and -
EP: We were posted to Holmsley South, near Bournemouth, on freight, freight Yorks. We were on them for about a year and presumably, by then, we’d qualified to be good enough to take passengers, so they posted us up to Oakington, on passenger Yorks. And while we were there on freighters, we only went as far as India, Delhi, to a place called Palam. And we only took freight, and we went on the usual route through Egypt, across into Shaibah in Iraq, and then into Mauripur via Karachi, and then across to Delhi, to Palam. And when we got on to passenger Yorks, our route was extended. We went to Singapore, to Changi, so it was a couple of years. By this time, I’d extended my release number, and I’d already served about eighteen months over the demob date. I hadn’t signed on yet, I was still ready for demob, but I’d signed on at about eighteen months over and I signed on for another six months. So, we got about two years on Yorks, and we were getting quite a few hours in by this time, all with my old skipper. And, lo and behold, he was posted to the Empire Air Training School at Shawbury as a special pilot, you know.
GR: Yeah.
EP: These special trips they did in the —what was the — the Lancaster. No.
GR: The Lincoln.
EP: Not the Lincoln.
GR: The Washington. No.
EP: No. The one where they made an airliner out of it.
GR: Canberra. No.
EP: No. It was a Lancaster —
GR: I know what you mean and I can’t, even I can’t think of the name.
EP: [unclear] Again my memory’s gone.
GR: Anyway.
EP: He was posted on them at Shawbury, Empire Air Training School.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Went on all these special ops.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Special navigation techniques.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
EP: And so, I was left with another pilot I got then, and I stayed there up until [pause], until, what happened? Oh, until I, until the Berlin Airlift started and all the Yorks were made to call.
GR: They were used on the Berlin Airlift, weren’t they? Yeah.
EP: Used for coal aeroplane, mainly carrying coal. I didn’t go on the Airlift, because I was posted at that time, lo and behold onto, of all things [pause] I’m trying to think where I am. I’m getting a bit confused.
GR: That’s alright. Well we can go forward. How long did you stay in the RAF for? When did you finally –
EP: Twenty two years.
GR: Twenty two.
EP: I did the twenty two.
GR: You did twenty two full years.
EP: Oh I’m with it now. I was on Yorks until the Airlift started. Then, lo and behold, out of the blue, they posted. By this, I hadn’t signed on either. I was still -
GR: Oh, you were still —
EP: on extended demob leave. And out of the blue, when the Airlift just started, when I was posted back to Bomber Command.
GR: Oh right.
EP: I was posted to Upwood.
GR: Upwood.
EP: RAF Upwood.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And I was there for about six months, and by that time, I’d got married during the war, and we moved into a caravan there, and my daughter was born there, and I was there for about a year and, lo and behold, we were suddenly posted over to Wyton, on Lincolns, and that meant I did a back and forwards on the bike. About twelve miles because we were very close. Into the caravan.
GR: Yeah. Yeah. Keep you fit.
EP: And then they built — they had already embarked on building married quarters at Wyton, so we got a married quarters, it was ideal then. And I was there for about six months enjoying everything and I’d signed on by this time for twenty two years. Signed on for twelve initially.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Then extended it later to twenty two. And I was at Wyton for about six months and suddenly, out of the blue, I was posted to Marham. To Marham. In —
GR: East Anglia isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.
EP: East Anglia. So that was, put paid — couldn’t come home all the time. So Amy went home, closed the house down, give up the quarters, had to give them up anyway, was posted, and we got a place in Downham Market, about twelve miles away. Lived in a little —over a shop in a little flat. Lovely little place. And I cycled back and forth twelve miles every day to Wyton.
GR: Very good.
EP: Why was I posted to Wyton? Because they were starting a new Con Unit there, because they were getting B29 bombers.
GR: The Washington.
EP: The Washington. And I was to be posted as a bomb aimer instructor on Washingtons, I was a flight sergeant by this time and so there I was. So, Amy was in the village, in Downham Market. Twelve miles, used to cycle in every day. But then they started extending the runway to this one huge runway they’ve got there, and every day, lorries were coming through, about one every ten minutes. Through Downham Market, loaded with gravel and bricks or cement. I could just, could just pop out of the flat, stand on the corner -
GR: Get a lift.
EP: Just put my hand out. I was in uniform and I did that until, and then they started building houses on Marham, and by that time I had plenty of points. It was all on points.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And we got, finally got a house in Marham and they opened a little, Sandie was about five by this time, a little infant’s school on the camp, you know. And the B29s came.
GR: Yeah.
EP: We had the Yanks there first of all, as a Con Unit, teaching us. Then we, in turn, became the Con Unit, and we taught the squadrons that came through.
GR: Very good.
EP: And finally, when we had taught all the squadrons, and everybody was back on fully operational commitments on their various airfields, we closed the squadron down, and we became 35 Squadron in our own right. So, the Con Unit became 35 Squadron.
GR: 35 Squadron.
EP: And I stayed with 35 Squadron right through until the V bombers came. We flew the Yanks, the B29s, did four trips back to the States, to Tucson in Arizona. And I was only saying, maybe I told you this before, when I got to Tucson the first time, out in the desert, all cocooned, was thousands of four engined aircraft. Bombers.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Fighters, transports, you name it. There was every aeroplane you could think of stretching out as far as I could see into the desert.
GR: A World War Two graveyard.
EP: That was in 19’, around 1960.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Many years later, when I say many years, I’m talking about, about two years ago here, they had a picture of Davis Monthan Air Force Base. He was going over — something to do with America.
GR: Yeah.
EP: And he took a photo of this Air Force Base and there they did an aerial view, quite low. Lovely picture. And I was sitting here watching it and I looked and all the bombers and planes were still there.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Thousands of them, but they weren’t propeller driven. There wasn’t one propeller driven aeroplane there.
GR: They were all jets.
EP: All jets.
GR: Yeah.
EP: What happened to the propellers? And what a mighty Air Force.
GR: Oh God. Yeah. Yeah.
EP: And that’s all one place.
GR: That’s all in one place. And I believe they have them out there because it’s dry and everything.
EP: Exactly.
GR: There’s no rust.
EP: Yeah.
GR: And all that sort. When did you finally leave the RAF, Eric, and then we’ll —was it in the –
EP: I left the RAF in ’42 — 64.
GR: 1964.
EP: August ’64.
GR: August ’64.
EP: And I went. Come August ‘64.
GR: Yeah.
EP: What was I doing then? I spent the last year on a home posting, so I was in command of a radar plotting unit, plotting so called bombs dropped by the V bombers, and it was only for a year. The last year of my service.
GR: Last year. Yeah.
EP: And when I left the service, I went for a two years course at Edghill Training College for teachers. I had been accepted. I took all my GCSEs in the RAF.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Been accepted on a teachers course.
GR: Yeah.
EP: I did two years of a three years course. I joined the young ones as a mature student. I came out of training college as a fully qualified teacher, got an immediate posting. By this time, I’d moved into a house in Formby, my own house, had a brand new car, and life was good and I was posted to a little village school in Formby itself, which I’ll show you a picture of.
GR: And that’s where I will draw it to a close, and Eric has kindly lent us his typed up memoirs called, “Eric’s Story”, which gives a lot of detail to what we’ve just been talking about.
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Title
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Interview with Eric Parker
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Gary Rushbrooke
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AParkerE160505, PParkerE1602, PParkerE1603
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00:51:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Cambridgeshire
United States
Canada
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1943
1964-08
Description
An account of the resource
Eric was born in 1924 in West Derby, Liverpool and volunteered for the Royal Air Force at the age of 17 and a half, finally being called up in January 1942 where he became a navigator / bomb aimer on Lancasters. After completing his training in Canada, Eric was posted to 12 Squadron at RAF Wickenby. Eric tells of the crewing up process, and recollects receiving a brand-new Lancaster, Y-Yoke which was lost after only six operations. Eric flew 27 operations, and took part in Operation Manna and Operation Dodge. He flew in N-Nan which survived 100 operations. He was then posted to Transport Command flying the York, before being posted back to Bomber Command. Eric recollects flying B-29s at RAF Wyton, his training in the United States and the transatlantic crossing. Eric left the Royal Air Force in August 1964, having completed 22 years of service, and took up teaching.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
12 Squadron
166 Squadron
aircrew
B-29
bomb aimer
bombing
Cornell
crewing up
displaced person
Lancaster
Lincoln
Master Bomber
navigator
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Marham
RAF Wickenby
RAF Wyton
training
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1083/11541/APriceSTG151001.1.mp3
1421d71d473b33c64ebc651fe2bbf2aa
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Price, Sam
Samuel Thomas Gwynne Price
S T G Price
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Sam Price (b. 1925, 1819421 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 195 and 35 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Price, STG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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IL: Recording on the 1st of October 2015 at the home of Gwyn Price in Colerne in Wiltshire and Ian Locker conducting the interview. Right, Gwyn tell us a little bit about your early life and how you joined, how you became involved in Bomber Command.
SGP: Yeah. I was born in 1925 so we’re talking about some seventy odd years ago when I did my first operation. So, although the mind is reasonably clear and I’ve had a look at things we really have to go back and give you the background. My rural background. Farming community. No — no electricity, no gas, no water, no sewage. Everything done on the range. But plenty of food and not an unhappy life. A very happy life in fact and I feel that with my later experiences that you make the most of what you’ve got and it was an ideal start because there was a determination to keep one foot going in front of the other if nothing more. I was always interested in flying and my main aim was to become a pilot in the Royal Air Force. I enjoyed the —
IL: What sort of age was that Gwyn? Sorry.
SGP: Well, when I was about fifteen — Grammar School ATC. I joined the Grammar School ATC and actually did all my proficiency exams. Did better at that than my academic subjects and became a flight sergeant which was a bit unusual to get that high. So I was then committed to join the Royal Air Force. And when I became seventeen and a quarter I, without anybody knowing I shot off to Birmingham for interviews and hoping to be a pilot. But the situation then was such, this is ’43, there were a lot of pilots being turned out and so I was offered a flight engineer. Which, in retrospect was a very good place to be because I eventually ended up on Lancasters and sat in the right hand seat and did a lot of flying and all the rest of it but — so there I was accepted as a flight engineer in 1943. Because of my age I was deferred until I was eighteen and a quarter which was the 7th of January 1944. And then my world, you have to — from a rural background, never really been out of the county very much, very quiet and laid back and shot into London for all my pre-RAF equipping and inoculations and films on sexual behaviour. People fainting all over the place [laughs] And some people fainting with the sign of a needle. And we suffered all through that and then went off to Newquay to start our initial training which was a three months course initiating us into the history and the aims of the Royal Air Force and the background. Plus all the navigation, engineering and all sundry things. Plus physical exercise. Lots of, beautiful down in Newquay. Very, got very fit. Sitting on the side of the cliff there breaking down Bren guns and things like that. And eventually came out. By this time I think we were beginning to feel a little bit like servicemen. And so then I went off to St Athan for my engineer training. Flight engineer training which was a six months course. And this was extremely complicated in you, you went from talking about engines from the autocycle right the way through to Rolls Royce, Merlin, V12s plus all the, the other equipment. Electrical engine, hydraulics. Oxygen. All the other systems in the aircraft and I eventually decided I wanted to be in a Lancaster because the Lancaster engineer sits by the side of the pilot and I felt then I would have a good chance to get some flying in. So, I passed out in October, practically on my birthday, nineteen year old birthday in 1944. And then shot off to do a little bit of Anson training. About ten hours. A little pilot training on the Anson before I then joined up and went to the Heavy Conversion Unit, Lancaster Heavy Conversion Unit to start my training as, on the job as it were, as a flight engineer. I then only did, let me, I should go back and say that passing from a cadet to a sergeant flight engineer my pay went up from three shillings a day to twelve shillings a day which was a ginormous jump. I’d always been a saving man and I sent a shilling a day, sorry. Yeah, a shilling a week home and saved that so I had a car at the end of the war. But there you go. So, we’re on our way. Flight engineer training. I did twenty four hours training as a flight engineer and then I was then considered fit to join a crew. And this was very, for a poor old engineer you had the boys coming in with their crews already formed, flying Wellingtons, pre-Lancasters, where seven crew were required. And the engineers sat like wall flowers on the side waiting for a crew to say, ‘He looks a decent sort of chap.’ ‘He looks like he might be sensible,’ or whatever. And I didn’t get picked for a while. I think I was probably too good looking actually [laughs] They didn’t want, they didn’t want any, they wanted a dour, down to earth engineer who would sort things out. Eventually this big Aussie, God he was big. Bob Newbiggin. Big Aussie. About six foot five and huge. He was the surf swimmer for Australia. He was in the “Guinness Book of Records” eight consecutive years. He was surf champion of Australia. A lovely chap. And he looked at me and the rear gunner was a bit older than the rest. A bit, he had a bit more savvy. He said, ‘Well I think he looks alright.’ [laughs] And I said, ‘Well, you look alright.’ So, so this Bob Newbiggin’s crew was formed. And then off we went and we did only thirty three hours training as a crew before we started our operations. We were declared fit for operational service which, when you think about it was not very much. After serving the Royal Air Force and flying about, nearly five thousand hours afterwards I realise how green we were at the time and, but how we managed despite that to cope with the difficult situations.
IL: So, had Bob Newbiggin and the rest of the crew been flying together for a while or were they — ?
SGP: They had, they’d only been on Wellingtons and formed a crew. They’d only probably done about fifty hours together.
IL: Right.
SGP: As a crew. So that formation but they had in fact had that advanced experience that I hadn’t had so I had to fit in with these other chaps you know.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: And I’d better say a little bit about myself. I used to read my bible every day which was a bit, the lads used to say, ‘Are you coming?’ I’d say, ‘No. I’ve got my scripture reading to do today.’ [laughs] And I didn’t drink very much at the time. I was a good boy. That changed a bit later on but, so anyway we all got on very well and then, in fact we were posted to 195 Squadron at Wratting Common in Suffolk.
IL: Right.
SGP: A beautiful area but of course we were at the — 1944, the winter was severe. We had snow on the ground and there was icing everywhere and it was really, really difficult. And we were living in Nissen huts. Metal huts. Yeah. You know N number, about twenty in a room. Two whacking great stoves burning coke and coal. Absolutely red hot. Talk about health and safety. It just hadn’t come in to being in 1944. They would have gone mad then. The thing would have never got off the ground. Anyway, we were comfortable enough in our way you know. And we were then waiting for our first operation. So, on the 14th of December we were and I’ll go through the operational briefing which was very important. So we’d all go down to the briefing room. Already equipped. And sometimes you’d be selected for a flight and sometimes you wouldn’t. And you would have the CO and all the navigation, signaller, engineer leaders, gunner leaders, all there briefing on any particular trip on any facets that might affect the individual crew members. And a big curtain. A curtain was drawn. Secrecy was tight until then. The curtain was drawn and then you were given a target for the night. Well, it was so vague actually I haven’t even got the name of the target. First target. But because we got half way across, got airborne, fully laden, half way across the North Sea and it was aborted so we had to drop our bombs in the sea and return saying, ‘Oh.’ Oh. Amazing that we were feeling miserable that we hadn’t gone and completed our first operation. Which gives you an idea of the calibre of the people and their attitude to the war.
IL: Absolutely.
SGP: We would, we then and now I have no regrets about what I did. And I think when you think about the way the Germans indiscriminately bombed our cities. You had your V bombs. You had your doodlebugs. There was no way that they could be targeted specifically at military targets. It was just pattern bombing. So we never felt any regret about this. Either then or now. And so we were a bit miserable on that occasion. A little bit post the briefing. You then, you had to go. The navigator would plot out his route. Because every, every aircraft was planned to operate individually which was very important. And then the signaller and myself and everybody else would be all briefed in the briefing room. And then the old truck used to come round, pick us up and drop us off at the dispersal point. And this particular one was a daylight flight and my role after all the crew went in the aircraft up the rickety old ladder that we had into the aircraft I would have to go around and check everything. Check all the things were tight. No, no cowlings aren’t loose or anything of that sort. No leaks. All the de-icing paste on the leading edge of the wings and the props was all done. So that we were all ready. And then I do say this and it’ll cause a laugh. You had, always had a last pee on the tail wheel before you went in, for good luck. So I did that and away we went. And then the crew did all the starting up procedures and everything else and pre-flight checks which were very thorough and then eventually taxi-ing out with all the other aircraft and you’d get your green light from the caravan at the end of the runway and away you’d go. And when you think about it we were probably laden with about two thousand seven hundred and fourteen gallons of fuel plus about twenty thousand pound of bombs, four thousand pound plus two fifties and that sort of thing. And so sometimes you were scratching a bit when you were getting off but then away you went and then you were individually working your way to the target. Now, in daylight it wasn’t too bad because you obviously could see people most of the time if the weather was fine and you could obviously avoid them. We did have a system to confuse the enemy radar where we’d drop what we called Window and they were long metal strips in packages. We’d throw, put them through the chute and they would spread all over the air below.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: And confuse the radar. But the only trouble with that is that in daylight you could see these piles in front of you and they would tend to get in the, in the oil cooling radiators and overheat the engines. So you’d do the up and down, up and down until the crew said, ‘No. No more.’ [laughs] you know, ‘No more. We can’t have any more of this.’ Anyway, that was a little bit of an aside. So, at night and I’ll go through at night because —
IL: So, because, because presumably most of, most of your operations were night time because obviously Bomber Command was doing the night time.
SGP: Exactly.
IL: And the Americans were doing the daytime.
SGP: Exactly.
IL: Weren’t they?
SGP: Yeah.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: We did a lot of daylight over France supporting the army on the second front and all that sort of thing. So we did quite a lot of daylight ones as well but the majority of them were night.
IL: So were you fighter escorted during the daytime?
SGP: No.
IL: You were on your own.
SGP: Only the, only the Americans had escorts. They had N number of guns, God knows how many fighter escorts and they carried very little, very little in the way of bomb load.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: But Flying Fortresses [laughs]
IL: Yeah.
SGP: There was a song about that but I won’t go into it.
IL: Is it a rude one? [laughs]
SGP: Carrying a teeny weeny bomb. Anyway, the night trips, you can imagine you would take off in a stream, one after the other and then you’d all be heading your own way. Planning your own trip. And so, what happened then if you were in heavy cloud, you’re getting iced up, ice was flying off the propellers on to the fuselage, cracking on the fuselage, and St Elmo’s Fire flashing around. All these sort of things were new to us and I was always concerned about temperatures of engines and things like that. But then you, the thing you have to remember is we didn’t have any naked lights in the aircraft. All the, all the instruments, flying instruments were just luminous dials and with the background a little bit of radium light. And they, I I used a little torch with a pinpoint light from it to do all my logs for the fuel consumptions and all the rest of it. And the navigator was in a blacked out little cabin there behind with his light on the desk. So there was absolutely no light in the aircraft. Absolutely black. So there was no light in the other aircraft either. So you wouldn’t see them. The only thing you would see are the exhaust flames and suddenly you would see exhaust flames and you wouldn’t be too far away then. And some of them were very close. And if they were navigating to get there on time some were probably a little bit ahead so it would be crossing the main stream to be back on time. This sort of thing. So, it was pretty hazardous and if the cloud, you were being iced up and the turbulence was bad and all that sort of thing it was pretty — that’s one of the biggest things was to look out. Just keep the eyes peeled. So, so that gives you a little bit of background of what it was like at night. And I might as well get on now to the difference because at night you’d be flying along in darkness and suddenly the target area would be as light as day. Lit up by fires, by all the flares put down by the Pathfinders and everything that was going on. And you could see all the other aircraft flying around, all the bombs coming down and you’d unfortunately see some aircraft being hit at the time and going down. That sort of thing. And all the stuff coming up as well. I shall never ever forget what it was like ever because it was so surreal. You, you’d go from total blackness into this light and you’d think everybody, you could see everybody you know and it was very unreal, but [pause] So we got our next flight. Let me have a [pause] was, was on the 24th . We did a flight to Bonn and this was heavily defended and we were well tasked, you know, to experience what I’ve just told you about. Both the night flying and the difficulties and also the light over the target area.
IL: So, Bonn was your first night flight?
SGP: Yes. Yeah. And I’ve gone over the [pause] we completed that trip without any trouble and then went on to —
IL: You say it was heavily defended so, you know. Do you mean sort of flak, or —?
SGP: Oh yes.
IL: Fighters? Or —
SGP: Oh yeah. Flak. I didn’t, we didn’t personally see any fighters.
IL: Right.
SGP: Except on one which I’ll tell you later.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: Because that was a bit close. But I suppose we had two major problems. One was a little bit later on over Kiel. No. Can I just have that for a minute —
IL: Oh yes. Please do. Please do.
SGP: Yeah.
[pause]
IL: Do you want me to pause for a second.
SGP: Yeah. Pause.
[recording paused]
SGP: We completed five further operations in six days. And the last one to a place called Vohwinkel. And we were, came back to base. The cloud was thick down to base so we were diverted to East Moor in Yorkshire. And I just want you to picture N number of aircraft all being diverted to East Moor. All stacked at five hundred foot intervals up to over twenty thousand feet. All desperately trying to get in and land and the weather wasn’t very good there either. So, we found ourselves in these orbits. Carrying on orbit, orbit, orbit until you were gradually coming down five hundred feet at a time and eventually you were the one five hundred, just five hundred feet and you were then in to land. And they got us down very well. But I thought about it. We’re in this cloud, continuously in cloud all the time but just going on instruments flying around in the orbit and if anybody had had an altimeter wrong or something like that only five hundred foot is the difference between the heights. But anyway, we landed ok and the next thing wasn’t so good. East Moor had only been given a short notice of us arriving. So, we’d had quite a long trip of about six hours. A bit tired out and a bit wound up with the, being diverted and having the towering let down procedure thing. And we arrived in our little huts and all they’d done, God bless them was to put piles of blankets on each bed. With no heat or anything. So [laughs] so we had to make the most of it. And that was the calibre of people we had those days. I should really go back to the beginning because I missed it out at the start. We came from a generation where we had great respect for the history of the country and our, what we’d done throughout the world. And that was still there then in the 44’s. We were very much in respect of the monarchy and the parliamentary democracy that we had and to the extent that even if you were at home we used to stand up when the national anthem was played. So, coming from that background it was a place in history that we accepted and we took it on for the, for everybody really. Because it was in defence of our country which we loved, you know. So, going back that gives you a little bit of a feeling for how we felt at the time. But after the, after the Vohwinkel one we completed eleven operations and then we were selected for the Pathfinder force. Well, we all thought, we were asked if we would be happy to go and we said, Bob said, the pilot said he’d be happy so we all decided we’d be happy to go to the Pathfinders. And then [pause] the, we, we went on our first flight which was a trip to Duisburg. As a Pathfinder. Now, the Pathfinder situation was that you had to go down to about eight thousand. That sort of height. Master bombers sometimes went lower than that and he circled continuously so their problem, they had a bigger problem than us. But we would go down and at least circle the target twice at something like eight thousand feet. So, what you had was, you had things coming up and you also had rather lethal things coming down from all our, the main force going through in their hundreds, sort of thing. Dropping bombs. In fact, our last squadron we had one tail turret taken off by a four thousand pound bomb. Clean straight off but the aircraft got back to base but the poor old gunner didn’t, obviously. So, and we circled around a couple of times and buffeted around. Anyway, we got our flares away because you’d, what you did was you identified the target where the flares were and then re-centred them on the, on the coloured lights that were down on the ground. And we did that a couple of times and we tore off home. A little bit wondering whether we’d done the right thing by going on the Pathfinders side [laughs]
IL: So how many, for a raid how many Pathfinders? Just the one or —
SGP: Oh no.
IL: For each squadron.
SGP: No. You had quite a lot.
IL: Right.
SGP: You had a master bomber.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: Who would be there, technically going there and identifying the target and putting down the, the first indicators and then the main force would drop on those indicators. And then you had what they call visual centre’ers who’d come along and replenish the flares so that the rest of the force coming through would have a target to aim for. If it was, the weather was bad and you couldn’t identify the target you had a visual, a marker chap who would have his H2S equipment to identify it through the cloud and then put what they called Wanganui flares. And they would be suspended in the air and you would drop on those.
IL: Right.
SGP: Which was, subsequently these sort of things were done more by the Mosquito because they had Gee and the navigational equipment that was more accurate. And they would be up at, say twenty eight thousand feet. Above everything really. And they would drop their markers accurately on, it was worked out on Gee and they would drop their markers. And that was very accurate. They, they did a lot of that towards the end of the war. But, so, so we, we completed that and the next thing is after five more operations we were over Kiel and we dropped our bombs and immediately we were locked on by three, coned by three searchlights. And we were totally blinded. Couldn’t see a thing. Absolutely unbelievable. Well, Bob then, he went like a maniac and we, we went down and out and around and whoa, and we ended up, we got away from them and we ended up over Kiel harbour and it was amazing. It was almost like heavenly sent as it were in that we went from chaos in one minute, light and chaos and then immediately to peace and tranquillity. And we were only, we were down to five thousand feet by this time and we felt a bit vulnerable sitting there on our own, you know, with no — so I wasn’t too keen on saving any fuel that night so it was full bore and away. But we got away with it and that was up to Bob. He did, he did a marvellous job and I was standing up at the front looking to see what was going on. And that was, so that was that. That was probably our most frightening experience. And then, almost our last flight we were on, enroute to Bayreuth and we suddenly had a Junkers 88, head on, come over the top and nearly took our canopy off. It was so obvious it was a Junkers when it was overhead. And the noise and he was gone and what I said in my little book was we didn’t know whether he had run out of ammo, was short of fuel, was tired and realised the war was nearly over, and thought we’d give them a fright but we won’t damage our aircraft. So we got away with that. I mean he could have taken off our canopy off.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: Without any trouble at all, you know. And we were a bit apprehensive about that. Whether he was going to come back or not but he never did so we went ahead and completed the target.
IL: Gosh.
SGP: Then on the 24th of April the CO asked for volunteers for a flight engineer on a crew where they had lost their engineer. And it was to drop medical supplies to prisoners of war in a place called New Wittenberg. And I said I’d go. So the crew said, ‘Don’t go Gwyn. You know what happens when you have an odd bod in the aeroplane. Nine times out of ten you get clobbered.’ And anyway, I was a bit pig-headed I suppose and I said, ‘Ok I’ll go.’ We were in fact told, the war wasn’t over then, we were told that there was a, the Germans wouldn’t in fact attack us on the way. Well it turned out there was three aircraft involved and I was in one of them. And we went across Germany. Lovely night. Clear blue sky. Not blue skies, moonlit sky at about five thousand feet. Quietly going across, found the target, dropped all our supplies on the target and then came back without any problem at all. In fact, I did a lot of the flying that night actually but, which was a good experience. And then that was it really. That was my last trip of the war. And —
IL: So you were still a flight engineer at that point?
SGP: I was still a flight engineer. I was at, I became a [pause] I got accelerated promotion. In fact, I would have been, I was on the list for a commission and then the war ended and that was the end of that. But I was a warrant officer at the, at the end of the war. And so that was the end. I should like to say that I’ve always said that the lads who went ahead of us were flying in inferior aircraft. Not good navigational equipment. Not able to get the heights and that that we got and operated under extreme difficulties compared with us. We had a really good aeroplane. Good navigational equipments and carrying a good load of bomb. But the point I’m trying to make is that even on the last day of the war we lost a crew. And he was a very well decorated man. He was in headquarters and he came down to the squadron, booked himself out to do a trip and he picked up all his men. They were all in the eighty, ninety operations and he, they decided they would have this last op but they got shot down and all died.
IL: Gosh.
SGP: Right at the end of the war. And I mean, you know so there was no safe operations.
IL: No. Absolutely.
SGP: And so that was it. That was my, my sort of war if you like. And after that I’ll go into the post —
IL: Oh no. I —
SGP: War era.
IL: Just, you’ve obviously you know, as a crew you became, I understand that, you know crews became very close. Tell me about the rest of the crew.
SGP: Yeah. I think we were, we were all very quiet. Nothing —
IL: Even the Australian?
SGP: Yeah. Yeah. Bob. Yeah. Well you did have a little bit where you had Bob was an officer and we were other ranks. The navigator was an officer and the bomb aimer was an officer. And the rest of us were other ranks. So there wasn’t the same sort of get together.
IL: Right.
SGP: Although we did get together. We had fine times but we were all very quiet crew and we operated together as a crew very well. Really well. Without making a fuss about it, you know.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: Just getting on. Getting on with the job. And I think that’s the point I’d always make. People ask me were you ever frightened? And do you know I was only frightened if I had a fuel calculation wrong or the oxygen was queer or the hydraulics or something or this and that. You were so involved with the operation, your own operation that nothing else mattered really. You had to, I suppose that was the responsibility of both the crew and to the operation itself that you felt like that which seemed to put everything else to one side. I can’t say that ever, even when we were crashing all over the sky over Kiel with the searchlight on us I didn’t, I didn’t feel any fear then. I think, was it because we were too green to be, to have fear? Because everything was new and was to some degree was quite exciting actually. I don’t know. A lot of people go, go and say they were frightened actually but I will, I will say one thing. As a crew you have all you boys up the front and your two gunners down the back. One mid-upper gunner and one tail gunner. Now, we always felt sorry for the tail gunner. He was out on his own. His, he was away from the centre of gravity of the aeroplane and the centre of pressure and whatever. So everything we did with the aeroplane it would be accentuated back there. I don’t know how he managed to draw beads when you were doing a corkscrew on an aircraft coming in is anyone’s business. And what he did on the night that we were flying all over the sky trying to get out the searchlights I don’t know but he quite got on with it. But we always felt that the rear gunner was a bit special because, one he’d be stuck in the tiniest little cockpit. A little area. Doors behind him. And that was it. He was in there. And he’d have an electrically heated suit. Sometimes he was burning on one side and freezing on the other. Icicles. Condensation. Unbelievable. I mean we did a couple of eight hour trips to the eastern front and he’d be sitting there for, well it would be longer than the eight, the actual flight times were eight hours. By the time you got in and got all your checks done and everything else you were talking about another eight and a half hours or more. Which is a heck of a long time to be sitting in that, those conditions. And so we always felt a little bit sorry for him. By and large we were, we had a reasonably heated environment in the cockpit and from the ground up at night we were always on oxygen. Daylight we went on about ten thousand. But it was reasonably comfortable and we had a nice bottle with a chromium plate with a little lid on the top where we could have a pee if we wanted. And I’ll tell you a funny thing.
IL: For eight hours you need it.
SGP: I’ll tell you a funny thing. Bob, our skipper was desperate for a pee about halfway across one trip. So I said, ‘Ok Bob. I’ll hand you the bottle.’ And if you can imagine, apart from having long johns on, flying suits on, parachute harness on, seat harness on, trying to organise yourself to cope with that. And he tried desperately. In the end, as I said in my little book I think he must have tied it in a knot but he never said anything about it afterwards [laughs] So, no. We, we I think we were always good friends. And I mean I still call the, Frank, the signaller, but he’s not well at all now. He’s older. He’s about ninety three now.
IL: Gosh.
SGP: And he’s just been taken into hospital. He had a fall. And he’s the only one I know who’s alive. And I was looking at the goodwill tour which I’ll talk about later on because they were things that happened later on. I was looking in the book and there was a little note there from a P Farmer and she was the wife of our, our Farmer in the back cockpit. And she’d seen the name Jack Stratten, who was a Newfoundlander, bomb aimer, who flew with us.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: And she’d seen his name mentioned. She was writing to this chap to see if he was the chap who flew with Bob Newbiggin and Eddie Farmer the, her husband, who had unfortunately died. And she was trying to get, I only looked, I only found that last night and I’ve been trying to pick up the threads ever since and Frank’s the only one that I’ve been able to contact. So that’s sad you know. Because we did [pause] but I suppose in a way we took it in our stride. I I took the whole thing in my stride and I had a longer term ambition to stay in the Air Force. The rest, none of the rest of the crew stayed and they all went back to civilian life. So, I had plans to be a pilot and so my next, I’ll go through, have a little break. I’ll go through my next period of service.
IL: Yeah. That would be —
SGP: After we’ve had a little break. It’s getting a bit hot in here.
IL: Yeah. It is actually. Might have to open the door for a second. Just, just suspending the recording.
[recording paused]
SGP: Rather than talk about military matters and flying and all the hazards associated with that you want to know a little bit about my personal background. And I’d like to put on tape my wife and I and our association for over sixty five years of married life recently. And it started off when she was evacuated from Liverpool to Herefordshire and was evacuated to my little village of Eardisland. It’s a lovely little chocolate box village of Eardisland. Very quiet. Nothing ever happens. And so she came down and then I eventually went off to start my service with the Air Force. And eight years later I was home on leave. I was actually taking part in the tug of war match for the local village and Muriel and her friend came down. And the, one of the neighbours who knew her said, ‘You know that’s Gwyn Price?’ She said, ‘Oh no. It can’t be him. He looks too young.’ [laughs] Which was always a problem I’ve had actually [laughs] And anyway what happened was we just chatted a little bit together and then there was an outing laid on by the village for a bus to go to a local village to a dance. And I didn’t know this but I turned up in my bow tie and everything else at the bus stop and immediately walked in behind Mu as I call her and sat down by her side. And from that moment on we never left each other, you know. The moment was done and the die was cast. And what I found out later was a friend of mine had actually bought the ticket to take Muriel. And I don’t know but I didn’t feel too bad about that actually [laughs] And after two years and I was on my way to, we courted for about two years and then I was on my way to Singapore and I said, ‘Well, we must get married.’ And the Air Force didn’t recognise you were married until you were twenty five. So, I actually bucked the rules and married just before I was twenty five. And so we were married and that’s the, that’s the start of our married life. And I’ll go to our association. From then on she became an Air Force wife. And we would never be anywhere without our wives because we spend so much time away from home. And I’ll go through all the times I’ve been away. And months on time. And they’re there running the home, looking after the kids, organising everything, looking after finances. Everything. And without a good wife it wouldn’t last which proved its point. So that’s my little bit of fill in. Social life in the middle of my Air Force history. Can I go on now to the —
IL: Oh yes. Please do.
SGP: The next point really is I’d completed twenty eight operations with, eleven with the main force and sixteen with the Pathfinders and then on the 24th of April, before the end of the war — no. Sorry. I beg your pardon. Not the 24th of April. On the 30th of April, before the war was peacefully declared we were geared to drop supplies to the Dutch people who had been starving under the Germans. They were really, they were eating rats and tulip bulbs and everything else and they were really, really in a bad way. Well, hundreds of RAF aircraft, Lancasters were filled up with food. Not any parachutes or anything like that. Just filled in the bomb bays filled with food. And we were, planned to do this and on the 30th of April we carried out an operation out at, in Holland. And I shall never forget this because we came in low from the sea at about a hundred feet and lo and behold there was a little hillock on the coastline and we couldn’t believe it. There were Dutch people there waving flags. Kids and everything else. Waving. And we could see the German soldiers standing there with their rifles down below. And you know, they obviously knew it was over then but we came in and dropped our supplies and then, that was known as Operation Manna. The Manna from Heaven. And ever since then there’s been this association with the Dutch people and the people who operated on Operation Manna and I’ve been there and feted by the Dutch people. I’m talking about fifty years later. And people, old people would come up, put their arms around you and cry. It was so dramatic that they were in desperate straits. The other important thing is and I think this is a reflection on our teaching in the schools. The youngsters were all taught this and were involved in carrying on this knowledge and this history, historical period. And I found that interesting because I find that even my own children are lacking in knowledge of World War Two and what was happening and who was doing what and where. And there’s a general feeling that the British Empire never did any good. And I really do feel strongly about that because I just ask one question. Can you name me one colonial power that was, one colonial nation that’s better off since the colonists went? Is this racist?
IL: No. No.
SGP: I don’t think it is because I’m, I’m rebutting what kids feel and what they generally feel today. What did we give to India? We gave the railways, we gave them a diplomatic service and we gave them the English language. Now, where would the Indian nation be without the English language? I don’t think they’d be as far ahead as they are. I know that they have got their social problems. They’ve got their peaks and lows in terms of riches and poorness but I do, I do have a bee in my bonnet about what we did. And I’ll say a bit more about that when we go to the Congo when I was with the United Nations in the Congo war. So we, we did our drop and Operation Manna was something that’s lived on in the memory of the Dutch people and it also was for us, was very emotional. We’d been dropping bombs on the Germans. Then suddenly we saw how the Dutch people ignored the sentries and were standing out there waving their flags and I thought, and the kids and everything. I thought it was very emotional for us. We felt really very emotional about it and very pleased to be able to help them. And talking about the food supplies because we were all free dropped on the ground. And they talk about the margarine and the sugar and all the rest of the stuff that came down. Scrape it off the grass or whatever. They were so appreciative and that’s stuck on. I mean, we’re talking now, they’re still, in fact doing it you see. Appreciating it and thanking us for it. But so that was Operation Manna and then we had all these hundreds of bombers. Lancaster bombers and we were totally employed then on bringing back our POWs from all over the place. From Belgium, Italy. We had Bari in the south. We had Naples. Pomigliano was the airport there at Naples. And we were in and out. Hundreds of aircraft on the undertaking and we could only carry twenty or so people and they were all sitting on the, on the metal floor in the cockpit. But I probably shouldn’t say this but we used to take Italian prisoners of war out and then bring our own boys back. And I won’t say what the treatment, how the treatment differed between the two because I’d probably be had up.
IL: Oh you wouldn’t. So how did it? How did it differ?
SGP: Well we gave our boys blankets and comforters and we also stayed at a reasonable height where they wouldn’t suffer from an oxygen lack or anything like that [laugh] We were naughty then but of course we were, we were getting over the war actually. It had been a trying period. And the other thing we did apart from all this, carrying all the troops around that was great because we felt we were humanly doing something very important. And we’d get our boys up in to the cockpit and if they were coming back and to see the white cliffs of Dover after four or five years of prisoner of war camp was too much. They all broke down without exception and it was very [pause] but they were so happy as well and had to work it out that way but so that was that and so, that was that. Then we amalgamated with 156 Squadron and primarily to represent Bomber Command in all the celebrations that one does after a war. The Victory Day fly past over London. The VJ day flypast. The Battle of Britain flypast. So we had twelve Lancaster aircraft in white and doing formation flying over these cities. And then we were, we were then ready to go to the good will tour of America. And so we took off from Graveley which was our base in Huntingdon, near Huntingdon and shot off via St Mawgan to the Azores, Newfoundland and then all around America. From right down from, from New York to Colorado to California to Texas. Washington. Giving exhibition.
IL: So was this with the same crew? With the same crew that you’d had?
SGP: We only had the amalgamation of the 156 and 35 didn’t come without its pain because obviously some people, they only wanted half of each squadron.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: And we lost everyone except myself and my rear gunner. And the navigator came with us as well. So there was three of us on our crew. And we had another pilot who, in fact was then a Flight Lieutenant Harris who was an ex-master bomber pilot.
IL: Right.
SGP: A very good pilot. And so we joined up with him and flew all around the States. And had a very good time. They feted us but I don’t know whether I should put this in but we found, this is talking about 1946 we are talking about how parochial they are. They read their local papers but their international knowledge and even knowledge of World War Two was unbelievably bleak and barren if you like and they were, you know, they were, amazed to see people, other people who had actually been involved in the war other than the Americans. And this was something that we weren’t very comfortable about because I mean we always get the state where the Americans win the war but they, they’re load of bombs dropped was much less than we dropped. And they also — are you were getting near to the end of your tape?
IL: No.
SGP: Ok.
IL: I’m just checking.
SGP: Yeah. We all get blamed for targets that shouldn’t have been bombed. You know what I’m talking about.
IL: Absolutely.
SGP: But the Americans also had a daylight bombing of that, of there as well. I can’t think of the name at the moment. I can’t remember. I’ve gone a bit queer. But so that was one thing about the American tour that I was a bit, we were a bit shaken by really because I mean we were so involved with the war the whole people, the whole nation had been subjected to all this bombing and everything else and the terror attacks and what have you. The Americans didn’t have any of that.
IL: No.
SGP: They didn’t have any of it. All they got was their films and their propaganda, you know. Then of course on the lease lend they made sure the British empire wouldn’t last forever.
IL: Absolutely.
SGP: And this went on but I mean that’s a side issue which maybe is my view rather than anything else so.
IL: Just one, just on the war so how do you personally feel about this lack of recognition that you’ve had? Not you personally but, you know —
SGP: No. No.
IL: That Bomber Command has had.
SGP: I should, I will stick my neck out and be quite positive about this in that we only have one man to blame for that and he’s the honoured man Winston Churchill. Winston gave Arthur Harris, Bomber Harris, our great bomber commander the authority to break the will of the German people and Arthur Harris went out and we helped to do that. At the end of the war Churchill didn’t want to know. It was bad publicity to have this hanging around his neck. So, Bomber Command and including Bomber Harris and our Pathfinder chief, none of them were awarded at all. They weren’t given proper recognition and we felt very bad about that because they were, they were good commanders and we thought the world of them. And I think politically it wasn’t, it wasn’t to his liking you know to pursue that glorification if you like, in brackets again, of the war effort by the, by ourselves. That I think has pursued us down the years until we had the Memorial in Green Park which is —have you been there?
IL: I haven’t but I —
SGP: It’s a marvellous Memorial. It’s late but it’ll stand the test of time. It’s wonderful. The architecture. The setting. Everything about it. And I went to a political party meeting recently and I suppose I told the MP there. I said, I had a little bit of a go at him on this because it was not only Winston Churchill but every other prime minister since then. They ignored it. And he said, ‘But we did give you money.’ I said, ‘But nothing like enough to cover the cost.’ It was all done by voluntary subscription. And so I don’t even pinch any glory from that side of it, you know. It’s a political argument. I think it was lost and I do feel strongly about that and I think all my friends do as well.
IL: Absolutely.
SGP: Who served at that time. But better late than never and another one is coming up in Lincoln.
IL: Yes. Well tomorrow.
SGP: Which will be good. Yeah. I was hoping to be there actually but you coming in the [laughs] No. It wasn’t that actually. It was a little bit longer. The journey was a problem in itself and it’s a day, it would have probably have taken two days or something. But I’m sorry I’ve not been there, you know. But so that’s what I felt about that. So then I left the squadron and I did a flight engineer’s instructors course. I did a little bit of flying as a screened engineer and then went on and flew about fifty hours on the Lincoln which is the bigger version of the Lancaster. And then the phone call came, ‘You’ve been selected to go for tests for a navigator or pilot.’ And so I went down there and went through about a week of pretty strict physical and mental tests. And then we were all brought out on the parade ground and we were also, I was hoping I wouldn’t be a navigator. I couldn’t stand that. Anyway, I was picked as a pilot. I was selected as a pilot so my day was made and my aim was achieved. I still had to qualify. Go through all the tests and pilot training etcetera but from that moment on I was happy and I started my pilot training and —
IL: Did you, so did you train on the Lincoln?
SGP: No. No. No.
IL: Right.
SGP: We started, oh gosh I started on the only aircraft I think that has ever been, that I would really call an aeroplane. That’s the Tiger Moth. Because it was such fun. And I mean we used to sit up there with our heads out in the winter with the scarves around and the goggles on hanging from your straps in the freezing air. Cutting your engine. Then doing vertical dives to start the engine again. All that sort of thing. It was a fun aeroplane. The only thing was it wasn’t like the Stampe aeroplane which is like a Tiger Moth which the French have.
IL: Yes.
SGP: And that had an automatic [pause] Oh God. [pause] Carburettor. Carburettor sorry, which would allow it to turn upside down and still fly. Keep the engine going where the Tiger Moth would cut out straight away. If you were upside down too long it would just cut out. But no that was a fun aeroplane. So we, we started on that and did quite a number of hours on the Tiger Moth and then we went on to the Harvard. And the Harvard was a wonderful aeroplane too. A wonderful trainee aeroplane and eventually with all the hard work we had nine months of solid training and then you’re going through everything from meteorology to navigation to everything, you know and plus all the tests and everything else. Plus all the flying. It’s quite a, quite a tough, a tough course. Anyway, I eventually passed out and they decided that I would be more a transport man. So I was, I started training on the Wellington which was the old wartime aeroplane with geodetic construction and all the rest of it. And I had a very interesting training on that because I think probably the only person who ever had two airspeed indicators fail. One at night and one in the day. So I had no airspeed at all. I was just flying along on the seat of my pants, you know. And they came up and said, ‘Do you want somebody to come and, come and side by you?’ I said, ‘No. No. I can feel the aeroplane. I can fly.’ Fly the inside. So I landed both happily. I got an above average assessment at the end of the course for that. So, after that I started on the Dakota which was going to be my operational aeroplane and that was a wonderful aeroplane and I eventually passed out on that and went off to Malaya. And of course there was a war on in Malaya. In the emergency, 1950 ‘53. And the, Singapore still hadn’t recovered fully from the Japanese invasion. Changi Jail. We were based at Changi Airfield which was near Changi Jail. And the place was pretty dire, you know. And we were supporting the army in the jungle of Malaya and flying a lot from Kuala Lumpur and Penang. And I mean, health and safety. Oh gosh. I can’t think about it now but we used to do all sorts of things. The army, because I know they’re cutting their way through the jungle and eventually getting tired and wanting to form a little camp with a dropping zone. DZ.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: And they would pick them in the most awful places. Sometimes at the end of a valley. We could hardly turn around. I mean we had a wing tip to get around. And I was on one trip and it was on the side of a hill. I was coming in from the valley side, concentrating on the DZ and at the last minute the trees were coming towards me on the top of the hill. So I had everything open, a little bit of flap and I just went over the top. That was the sort of situation we found. In fact, that situation was probably more dangerous than anything I’d ever had during the war. And the other stupid things we used to do we had a big base at Ipoh which is North Malaya. And we would fly from Kuala Lumpur. It was always cloud covered at Ipoh so you couldn’t get down in to drop your supplies for the troops on the ground for distribution. And so what we would do, believe it or not, we’d fly, and at north of Malaya there was a little valley opening and a railway line used to work its way through the mountain up to Ipoh. And we’d go up through there, windscreen wiper on, raining, coming down and you’d wind yourself up, hardly any room for the aircraft to go up and eventually come out at Ipoh at the end underneath the cloud. Drop your supply and then you climb out to sea and you’d be ok. But little things like that, that I mean it wouldn’t happen today I don’t think. Even on operational circumstances it wouldn’t be on. But we had lots of flying out there. We used to travel from Ceylon as it then was or Sri Lanka now. And I had a two months — married my wife in the August, she came out by troop ship on the, on the, in the January. Seasick all the way because we got these boats as reparation from the Germans. They were all designed for river boating [laughs] so they had very little keel on and the sick, unbelievable sickness. Anyway, she came out. She was sick all the way and within a week I was off to Ceylon for two months. That was the beginning of our Service married life. And this was life in the Service. So, I was on air sea rescue out there and then we would go out the other way through, right through Indo-China as it then was. Through Saigon, [unclear] up to Hong Kong. And Hong Kong then was a small [pause] Kai Tak, the airport, the RAF airport there was small. You may know it or not know it.
IL: I do know it.
SGP: And you had Lion Rock up here.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: And we’d come in over, along the valley on the south west side and over Kowloon and then you’d do a [pfhtt] straight down, chop everything and land and then the sea was at the other end. And then the Hong Kong Island on the other side. So that was interesting. So that, we were on San Miguels then. the San Mig which was very popular and very, very nice. So I experienced there — weather. I’ve taken off in pouring rain from Hong Kong island, from Kai Tak not from Hong Kong Island.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: From Kai Tak. Pouring rain. Could hardly see the end of the runway. Windshield wipers going like this. Targeting a non-directional beacon on the top of Hong Kong Island in cloud and just climbing like mad hoping that, the indicator going mad and you were trying to keep up and hoping that nothing failed otherwise you’d be straight in Hong Kong Harbour. And it was sort of things like that that made life interesting. So we would then go on to, up to Okinawa and then off to Iwakuni in Japan. And we were up there in the 50s which wasn’t that long after the Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombs. And we were landing at Iwakuni which was quite close to them. So we had a good sight of the devastation that was there. Of the land and the houses and everything else. So that was, made us aware of how powerful — ok Japan houses, Japanese houses were not that resistant to that sort of treatment but it was all vaporised really and it was very, made one aware. We had our group captain [pause] not Townsend [pause] Who was our man? Famous man. A hundred operations.
IL: Not Leonard Cheshire.
SGP: Cheshire. Yeah. Leonard Cheshire. Leonard Cheshire was on one of those flights.
IL: Gosh.
SGP: And they’d made him, he’d done over a hundred ops and got a VC. And he was then seriously worried by using that type of bomb. But there you go. It’s frightening. But so on one trip coming out of Okinawa I’d just got airborne and my port engine seized and it’s from sea to sea at either end. So I had to do, I did a quick dink around and came back in on a reciprocal. Landed. So that was one of the interesting things that we had. And the other route we used to go to the north would be through Labuan in Borneo and then up through Manila. And we were then on Valettas. I transferred to Valettas because the Dakota went out and I did about four hundred on Dakotas out there and about eight hundred then on Valettas. But the Valetta was a different animal. They had the Hercules engines, Bristol engine, and as soon as you get in very cold air the oil cooler would, all the oil would get thick and it wouldn’t run through the engine. So you had to do the opposite. You had to slow down, put revs up and fly at the slowest. And I was going up there just north of Borneo over the sea, engines coring. We call it coring. When you get overheating and you do the opposite to what you would normally do and eventually you get the temperature back down and away you go. So that was one little flying incident. So after that tour I was then made a command flight safety officer at Upavon.
IL: Right.
SGP: I was the trial and command flight safety officer. So I had two and a half years there which was good fun. And I went to [pause] where did I go after that? [pause] No, I’d bet, can I, can I rescind that?
IL: Oh yes.
SGP: Can I rescind that?
IL: Yeah.
SGP: Well can we —
IL: Please do.
SGP: Restart. I jumped ahead of myself on the last. On the command flight safety officer. My next, in fact, in September ’53 I was put forward for an instructor’s course at the Central Flying School at Little Rissington. And then passed through that course flying Harvards and Provosts and was then posted to Ternhill in Shropshire as a flying instructor on the Provost aircraft. I qualified on the Meteor jet and completed the instruction at Ternhill, posted to fly Hastings aircraft at Colerne. This required a lot of time away from home and one of the main trips and the most memorable trip that I did was to, in July of ’58 I flew out to Kiritimati Island. Or Atoll. In the middle of the Pacific. Commonly known as Christmas Island — for transport support for the hydrogen operation, Grapple Zulu which was carried out at the Atoll then from a Victor aircraft. I’d like, just like to say to get out to Christmas Island it took us ninety hours flying in the Hastings. Eighteen days. And so we then arrived from, finally from sort of Brisbane to Fiji to Kanton Island and then up to Christmas Island and then if you get the idea of the space from Fiji was about five hours flying. Six hours. Then up to Honolulu, Hawaii was another six hours. So it’s a long, you can imagine. It’s a little spot. Coral Atoll, in the middle of the ocean. Obviously an ideal place for an atomic explosion. Or a hydrogen explosion that was then. Anyway, on the day of the explosion we were all on the tarmac with our backs to the blast, in flying suits and covered up. And the aim was that it would be dropped from a Victor aircraft and exploded about ten thousand feet. And then when we did anticipate, because they had old buildings and that on the island to see the reaction of the, of different constructions to the atomic bomb. The experience then was something I’ll never forget. We were on the ground. Sitting on the ground with our back to the explosion and hands over the eyes, eyes tightly shut. And yet the light from the explosion was obvious to us even in that situation and then the blast of air coming through was tremendous. And the power happening about thirty miles away was unbelievable. And I’ll never forget it. And then of course when it was safe to do so we turned around and looked at the mushroom cloud which was going, going up at that time. You could see the immense power in the, in the cloud. And the thing which I think there was a bit of naivety about the effect of radiation. But we had two Canberra aircraft with sniffer things on the, on the wings and one of them was in the cloud for about fifteen minutes. Another one flew through it which was less time. And in reflection, on reflection I don’t know what happened to the pilot or what effect it had on him or the other pilot. But of course a lot of people have suffered and there’s been a big fight about the effect of, the effect on one’s skin and cancer from, from the explosion. I’ve only had about fifteen lumps taken off so far and only one was cancerous [laughs] but then that involved five years in Malaya, Christmas Island for months, Ceylon for months, Congo for months and so my, my skin’s been exposed to a lot of sunshine which is not a good thing now. I’ve even got problems coming up. I’ve just had a few taken off my face actually.
IL: So, were you given, was there any radiation protection? Or was it just flying suits?
SGP: Nothing at all.
IL: Nothing.
SGP: Nothing at all. I’ll tell you an interesting story and this is about a doctor. I, I knew this doctor because he was at Farnborough and they’re all a bit mental there anyway because that’s why they’re there. They’re prepared to try anything. I know, I know he had, one of his tests was air sickness. He wanted to test it out. So he would get his mate with a flying machine with an aerobatic ace and he’d have a couple of eggs and, just before the flight, and he’d sit there with his stopwatch and his bag seeing how long it would take him before he was sick. But that was one of his, that was one of his little things he used to get up to. And then they, they he managed to contrive to have a railway track and they had a thing on wheels that had a rocket behind it and these rockets were actually dud ones. And they didn’t know what they were going to do with them. Whether they would go off or fizzle or disintegrate or whatever. I mean it just shows the way they — to see the acceleration. The effect of acceleration on the human body. And that was one. Well, I think he topped it in Christmas Island because he had some special glasses with, that were flicking at a fraction of a second. Timed for when the bomb went off. Looking at it to see what effect it would have on his eyes. And I was standing by to fly him up to Hawaii to a medical, you know, to get treatment. But in the event it wasn’t too bad so obviously he wasn’t exposed for very long. But I mean, his name was Whiteside, a super chap and there were three things I could say. He wasn’t on his own. I mean he was just I think a bit mad actually but he was still prepared for the interest of science to sort of expose himself to such terrible risk. So that was it at Christmas island. We used to fly around there. The frigate bird was obviously getting, we were flying all over the place. We used to be clobbered on take-off. They were a bit of a pain really. And then we had crabs who used to come and, on the island to lay their eggs and things or whatever and thousands used to come and you’d just drive over them because they were just too many. They were everywhere. And it was a very small island, Atoll, you see. And anyway that was an experience that, you know stands out in the memory. And of course, going up to Honolulu. It was very nice up there. Waikiki beach was very nice [laughs] and the food was nice and we’d go around to all the pineapple places. So we used to have a break up there. But then we, I had about three months out there and then we were back and I had one more job which was of interest and I flew the body of the Columbian ambassador from England to New York. And I think it’s probably the worst flight I ever had in my life. I took off at Colerne here on the short runway which was very rarely used, in a blinding storm. Got to Northolt and let down there totally down on the ground, pouring with rain, landed and thought I was going to run off the end because I was aquaplaning down the runway. Stopped there. Took off the next day for Iceland. Reykjavik. And with the body on board of course by this time. He wasn’t worried. No, I shouldn’t say that. However, we landed in Iceland. The weather to Goose Bay in Greenland was diabolical so they said, ‘You can’t go yet.’ So we were in and out of the aeroplane. Eventually got off. Landed in Goose Bay. By the time we refuelled the oil had gone solid and we had to go into the, into the hangar to warm the lot up and eventually got the engines turned over and got airborne. And by this time there were people in New York waiting for us to be there, you see. Waiting for time scale with the reception party and everything else. And then lo and behold we had one hundred knot headwinds going down the east coast of, the west coast of Canada and America and arrived in New York at 2 o’clock in the morning. Terribly late and where the guard of honour took off the ambassador and then we managed to get some sleep after that. The next day we had an engine failure and couldn’t, had to have it fixed before we could turn back. And we had just the same sort of weather all the way back. It was one of those trips you remember very clearly.
IL: Absolutely.
SGP: So that was primarily one to think about. Then I did do an attachment to Accra in Ghana as OC Accra. We had one Hastings aircraft there supporting the Ghanaian troops under the United Nations banner. In the Congo. Operating in the Congo. And I went into what was then Leopoldville which is now Kinshasa and I was amazed. You know right in the middle of, I wouldn’t say the jungle that would be —
IL: Yeah.
SGP: Implying whatever, that Africa’s a jungle which it isn’t. But you go to Leopoldville, it was a city. A beautiful city. Wide boulevards with trees. Just like a continental city. And a lovely university on top of the hill. A small aircraft that did DDT spraying every day so it didn’t get any mosquitoes. Beautiful. And what happened was the Belgians said — at midnight tonight you can have the Congo. It’s all yours.
IL: Yeah.
SGP: And they moved out lock, stock and, well not lock stock and barrel. They moved out to a man at that time. Left all their houses. We saw villas. Beautiful villas. I mean ok you could make an argument about they were living well but villas with all the tables laid and everything else. They just walked out. And their big mistake was they’d not really promoted anybody above artisan class. So there was nobody really in that sort of echelon to take over power of the country. But then, as so often happens and it’s the one thing I feel about the colonial reign was that because we were able to organise and run a country with very different ethnic people involved we tended to put a ring around. We got it everywhere. You can talk where you like. You can go to Kenya, you can go in to Iraq or anywhere like that where colonials put a ring around. In the Congo you had the people up in Luluabourg in the north who were totally opposed the south. And as soon as the Belgians went they wanted to take over the north. And since then of course the country has really gone down. It’s the richest mineral wealth country in the world and yet it’s in a terrible state. Roads and everything else. There’s been so much corruption and money taken out. It’s, it really is very sad but I mean I experienced that as part of the United Nations and I think, well perhaps it wasn’t perfect for everybody in the Congo when the Belgians were there but at least there was the rule of law as it were. And I believe the people respected it, you know. I mean a lot of people in India didn’t want the Raj to go because the place was organised and run but, and the same happened in Kenya. I mean Mugabe, he drives me up the wall that fellow because there was so many, so many things that, they’ve killed more people than we ever killed there. Opposing tribal, tribal situation. Anyway, I don’t want to go, that was my one little trip to the Congo. And then I did a flight to Gibraltar and that was the end of my flying at Colerne and you know, down the road here, on the Hastings. And my next trip believe it or not was to Singapore again. I came home and said to my wife, ‘We’re going to Singapore,’ and she nearly had a fit. She said, ‘I’m not going back to Singapore.’ She didn’t like the heat.
IL: No.
SGP: And the humidity. Although we had some extremely good times there. Had lots of very good friends. The kids said, ‘Oh great. Going back to Singapore.’ Well, the one, the first child, Debbie was born in Singapore on the first tour. So anyway, we went back out as I went as OC, the transport operations in Seletar. And of course, the upshot of that was that I got myself involved with the Borneo campaign and I went out with the commander out there. And in fact, I was the assistant to General Walker who was the army commander. And we arrived, we’d had a [pause] not a Valetta [pause] oh the big plane. Oh God, my mind’s going. Anyway, we all arrived in Brunei. The first night our accommodation was on a boat on the side of the river there. In the harbour. Not very comfortable. But eventually we set ourselves up as a headquarters in Brunei. And for a habitation, I shouldn’t say this really, but we went into a girl’s private school. Into their accommodation. You won’t believe this. We got in. We found the beds were lice ridden. All around the beds, we all went around with all sorts of things like lighters and things like that to kill all these bugs off. We eventually got ourselves reasonably comfortable there but we did have one chap who came over to visit us and we kept one bed specially for people we didn’t like and then a good skinful of Tiger Beer. Not a very happy lad in the morning. Anyway, that’s by the by. Now, we eventually moved down to Sarawak. To Kuching. Sarawak. And I was OC of the transport so I was, I was tasking all the transport aircraft. There were Pioneers and Valettas and Beverleys. Beverleys the aircraft. It was the Beverley that flew into [Lap?] and took the airport to start off with.
IL: Right.
SGP: That was the beginning of the war and they just got in and the troops got out and sorted it out before anybody else could do any damage to the airport. But so I was tasking the aircraft, mainly twin and single Pioneers and helicopters. And I had an interesting request from an army commander. They used to go up and down the Rajang River with twin outboard motors belting out the longboats you know. Up there. And he got a chief up there that he was wanting to get onside. And so he asked for a helicopter to go out and take the chief for a ride. And I said negative. I’ve got too many operational tasks for that. So he came blazing back down as fast as he could on the Raja, on the River Rajang in this outboard motors and had a go with this commander. The commander said, ‘Not a chance mate. You’ve had it.’ So that was that but the other thing was you get involved with the natives, the local people when you go up and so we all went down to a longhouse up on the sticks with a big hole in the floor for any business that one wanted to do. And you’d sit all around talking to the people. And out would come, the rice wine would come around in the cup. Well I’m not ultra fussy but I’m a little bit fussy [laughs] You come and you see the flies floating on the top and the globules of rice. Things look horrible and you have to take a drink otherwise it’s very unpopular. It’s like eating the sheep’s eyeballs in Arabia or wherever which I couldn’t, I wouldn’t cope with that either [laughs] And but we, we had that was in the interesting aside. They were head-hunters. They were in their loincloths. Very, very good chaps actually. We had no trouble with them. And so that was technically the end of my, my time out in in the Far East on the second tour. Because then we came back home. Then I came back to be command flight safety officer at Upavon. And that was a very interesting time because one had to look at the safety operation of the aeroplanes. And the war was over. And there was a greater pressure, if you like on operating, operating aircraft within safety measures. I mean we’d operated out of Colerne, for instance for years. Fully laden and everything else. Never had a problem. Then they produced Operation Data Manual which required that if you had an engine failure on take-off you’d never be able to cope at Colerne. So they were, Hastings were banned from Colerne although we’d been operating for years just because this Operation Data Manual. And we had the Argosy aircraft come out and the power on that was terrible. When you put the Operation Data Manual you could hardly carry a mouse. And the Beverley wasn’t a lot better so that was one of the things I had to watch was the safety. And we produced a magazine every month which obviously was a bit of a pain because you could never get enough people to put in contributions, you know. So you were always having to scratch at the last minute to complete your [laughs] your book. So, so where are we gone now then? We’re up to —
IL: You were in Upavon.
SGP: We’re up at Upavon. After that I was selected to go to the Ministry of Technology to do a project manager for simulators.
IL: Oh right.
SGP: And I got in the back end of the Belfast liaising with the companies concerned. And also the VC10. And I had a complete management on the navigation and the signals simulator. And I was kept on, in fact for five years to finish that. And that turned out to be a very good training aid for the RAF and they were very pleased with it. So, so that was that really. And after that I, I decided I wasn’t sure about what I was going to do but I felt that the mahogany bomber wasn’t quite me and I did my last tour as a personnel officer at Andover with Transport Command and finished. Retired from the Air Force in [unclear ] after doing thirty one years in the Air Force.
IL: Gosh.
SGP: Which I think was, I enjoyed every minute because the big, apart from the operational flying side of it the sport side was attractive to me and I used to play rugger regularly and cricket. And we used to play badminton, squash and all the games, tennis but rugby was my game. I played on the Padang at Singapore. In the, in the heat but I went out as a young flank forward on the open side usually so I was tearing around a bit. And the Tiger beer didn’t do any good. I came back as a front row forward and they didn’t like that very much.
IL: No. It’s —
SGP: I remember playing the police force and I eventually got my arm was hanging like that. My one leg had gone and I thought, ‘I think you’re getting a bit old for this lad [laughs]
IL: Absolutely.
SGP: So we, we packed it up but, and also from the flying in the Lancaster which I didn’t mention, if you can imagine health and safety again I had a seat which dropped down from the side of the aircraft. It had to be moveable. The bomb aimer had to get through. Our escape hatch was just down below us. We had to dive down and a way to go. And so it had to be moveable so it used to fold up just a single seat. A little bit of foam on it and then you had a belt behind you. Yeah. You put a bar up. Put a bar up in front of you to put your feet on and that was your seat [laughs] And I never really thought much about it actually but if we came to a sudden stop I’d be probably, I’d be probably in the next parish [laughs]
IL: Right.
SGP: So there was no, there was no security there. But after that I had a lot of back trouble for a long time. and the RAF at that time had one cure for back trouble. That was lie on your back. PID I think it was called. Something about rest and something.
IL: That’s the current, that’s the current feeling. That’s not the current feeling is to keep going but it was for a long time.
SGP: Three weeks I was on this bed in Cosford in the RAF hospital there. Getting more and more uncomfortable. Not being able to do anything. You know. Back end wise as it were. And eventually they let me up to go to the toilet which was a great relief. But I came out a lot [pause] much worse than I went in, in fact. So uncomfortable and of course on nothing in the way of a mattress. It was just hard. And they wouldn’t let you turn over. You would lie on your back permanently for three weeks. That was hell. And I thought well I can continue, I had continuous manipulation on the back at Nocton Hall and places which used to be another hospital when I was up there. And eventually when I came down here to Colerne I went to Headley Court. Headley Court cured me because the first thing we did I was going there with the sciatic nerve trapped and dragging my leg along. The first thing you do, it was a lovely summer and you get down on, you’d be playing cards and you’d have a penalty — push-ups. So you’d be lying on your tummy on the floor. You’d either have to push up or lift your legs up and they continuously did that. Strengthening the back. Tuning up the back dorsal muscles. Whatever. And also heated pool. And we just had inner tubes. Quite a deep pool. You couldn’t stand up in it and you would have to hang from those. And you didn’t dare move. Just total relaxation. And that plus it’s a lovely place, Headley Court. I don’t know whether you know it. It used to be a house.
IL: I do know it. My brother in law is a physio. Well, was a physio, in the army and he was head of rehab there for a while.
SGP: Was he? Marvellous. Wonderful place. I saw people coming in who were smashed up. Really literally smashed up and they walked away. And it was continuous help and aid and wonderful. I’ve never had a problem with it since. You know, it did the job and manipulation didn’t. I’d have the manipulation, go home and I’d lean across and it would pop again. But, but having said that I now have mobility problems so, but the Service are looking after me well in that respect.
IL: Good.
SGP: Yes. It’s been a fascinating life and, and by and large the family have enjoyed it. It’s given us, I’m talking now about a country lad, farming stock. Rural background with they say two h’s Hertford and Hereford hardly anything ever happens. And Hereford is one of them. Hardly anything ever happens. So, it’s quite a remote place and I’ve moved on I suppose from that into where we are today and we’ve lived a very good life and a very comfortable life actually. And I, I thank the Air Force for that. The only regrets I have is as you say the boys who died, fifty five thousand of us didn’t get recognition earlier and I think that’s very sad. And it’s sad that it should be a political gesture that caused that to happen, you know.
IL: Absolutely.
SGP: Yeah. But so here we are. We’re back to square one and how do you think it’s gone?
[recording paused]
SGP: A little reflection. I really intended to start this talk on the basis that I didn’t ask to be a part of this reporting system. And I was asked to do it. And I didn’t consider my service, my number of operations, my general service as any more remarkable than anyone else’s and the fact I was doing a job that I enjoyed was, was fine and I, I wouldn’t like to think that I’ve been courting publicity in putting my history down on record [laughs] Ok.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Sam Price
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Ian Locker
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-01
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APriceSTG151001
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Pending review
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01:38:25 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Gwyn Price was living a rural lifestyle until he volunteered for the RAF. His dream was to train as an RAF pilot but since there was a surplus of pilots he chose to train instead as a flight engineer. On operations Gwyn observed the surreal feeling of one moment being in pitch darkness and the next being in the bright light over the target. On one operation they were coned by searchlights but managed to get clear by the skill and quick reaction of the pilot. On another occasion, their aircraft had a near miss with a Ju 88. When Gwyn left the squadron he became an engineer instructor but later retrained as a pilot; he went on to fly in the Far East and the Congo. He flew a large number of different aircraft including Hasting, Provost, Valetta, C-47 Meteor and Harvard.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Christmas Island
Hawaii
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Surrey
Hawaii--Honolulu
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
195 Squadron
35 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
C-47
crewing up
faith
flight engineer
Gee
Goodwill tour of the United States (1946)
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lincoln
memorial
military living conditions
military service conditions
Nissen hut
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Colerne
RAF Graveley
RAF Wratting Common
searchlight
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1123/11614/PSimmondsJE1701.2.jpg
618f3494008f7e19b194a907f9ca6882
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1123/11614/ASimmondsJE171114.1.mp3
75368cc2130c56e3cb7dcd43cae774fc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Simmonds, Jack Edward
J E Simmonds
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Jack Simmonds (1920 - 2020, 67595 Royl Air Force). He flew operations as pilot with 77 Squadron until he was shot down and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Simmonds, JE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Jack Simmonds today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Jack’s home and it is Tuesday the 14th of November 2017. Thank you, Jack for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Jack’s son, Paul. So, Jack, first of all perhaps could you tell us where and when you were born please and what your family background was?
JS: Yes. Yes. Firstly, I was born on the 8th of December 1920 and I was born in Gillingham in Kent and my father was a serving officer in the Royal Air Force. We, he had moved around a great deal and at that particular stage my mother had bought a house in Gillingham and that’s why I was born there. Otherwise we have no connection at all with that particular area. Fairly early on, when I was about five or six my father was posted to Egypt, and we moved out there and I stayed there for six years. I went to school in Victoria College in Alexandria and came back to the UK. As I said I was about six years, and we came back to Gillingham in Kent. I went for a short period to King’s, sorry to the Mathematical School at Rochester and when my father was posted again as also as people do we wondered around the UK following, following the parent. And my father was posted to Halton near Aylesbury and I spent about a year at Aylesbury Grammar School. Subsequently he was posted down to Worthy Down in Hampshire and we moved down to Winchester. I spent really the rest of my schooling at Peter Symonds School in Winchester, and I boarded there for a while when my father was posted away from Winchester to Brize Norton in Oxfordshire. I left school at the age of eighteen from, from Winchester and at that time was 1939 and the war was just about to start. After some discussion with my parents, I didn’t want to get conscripted into the Army or the Navy so I went to Oxford and volunteered to become a pilot. Now, it was difficult at that stage to select what category of aircrew you wanted to join but I was fortunate that, presumably because of my connection with the Air Force, they agreed that I should be nominated for pilot. Now, after that very little happened. I spent nearly six months at Selwyn College in Cambridge where they, I suppose tried to indoctrinate us in what the Air Force was about and doing some odd things like stripping down a machine gun and that sort of thing. And after that I was posted to — I can’t remember my number. I think it was 11 Elementary, Elementary Flying Training School at Coventry, and I obviously learned to fly and was taught flying on Tiger Moths. Now, at that stage of the war where the air force was extremely short of pilots, they were being shot down and killed all over the place, and for some reason or other I was not sent from Elementary Flying Training School to Flying Training School. They for some reason decided that they would try and see if they could avoid the elementary, the Flying Training School stage. So we were sent, about six of us from, from Coventry — or not. No. We weren’t all from Coventry. They were from, I think around the country, down to Abingdon. To the, I think it was number 11 Operational Training Unit. I’m not quite sure of the number. And we were taught, we were then presented with the fact that we were going to go straight on to the operational aircraft. the Whitley. From the Tiger Moth straight to Whitley. And we spent, in fact really we were quite an embarrassment because we were just airmen. We weren’t NCOs. We weren’t officers. We couldn’t use the sergeants’ mess, couldn’t use the officers’ mess. So, eventually they cleared a couple of married quarters and gave us those and allocated us a corner of the sergeant’s mess to eat and so on. I stayed there until I was qualified and in that same time I got my wings. And I stayed at Abingdon for probably about four months, I can’t remember exactly until I was qualified as a, as a Whitley pilot and then posted to 51 Squadron in Dishforth. I did my first couple of operations. My first operations were from Dishforth, and after about, I don’t know how many months — probably two or three months, I was commissioned. I was — by the way when I left Abingdon I was then made a sergeant. So I was a sergeant at Dishforth and then suddenly I was commissioned and moved, posted to Topcliffe, 77 Squadron. They also, of course had Whitleys. There was two squadrons there. 77 and 102 I think. The — I started my operational flying there obviously and on about my seventh or eighth one, I can’t remember, operation I was shot down over the Ruhr and we had a little bit of a problems maintaining our — by the way my navigator was wounded when we were caught by anti-aircraft fire. He got a lump of flak through his chest and so we obviously couldn’t bale out because he was flat out on the floor. And we went on for about half an hour or so on one, on one engine and eventually we, that failed and we crash landed in a sort of a swamp, about, I don’t know how many miles, about, about twenty miles short of Eindhoven I think. The, the swamp itself was not quite deep enough to sink but nearly, and I remember getting out and going around the back, getting the back door open and trying to smash the IFF thing that we were told to try and destroy if we had a chance. And during this period we got the navigator out and sat him on the top of the fuselage. He was still alive, and by that time there were Germans who apparently, we subsequently found had been following us by radar, Germans coming up the road which was about, probably about a couple of hundred metres from where we landed. And they took us to a radar station and then I went off to jail in Rotterdam. And I was there for — I don’t know really, probably three, two or three weeks. And the interesting thing about that was we were, I was interviewed by a so-called Red Cross person who offered me cigarettes and things and then tried to, to find out where I came from and me and my squadron who — you know. Trying to interrogate, and then after about three weeks in jail I was sent down to Frankfurt to the — I think it was a reception camp. And I remember being quite, I suppose shocked by the fact that some of the inmates there had settled into the, to the arrangements in the camp and were apparently cooperating I suppose with the locals. The only chance, the only time they tried then to, to interrogate me was at, for some reason they removed all my clothes and I was in this room and this, this Hauptman, a major [pause] He was a Luftwaffe major, immaculately dressed in white and boots and all that and tried to investigate where I came from and who I was and where, you know what the names of my crew were, and what my, my target for that night was and so on. Just generally tried to, to find out information. The next thing that happened about six or eight of us were shoved on a train and sent down to Salzburg. We were in — I can’t remember the name of the — I think it was Oflag something 6. I don’t know. So, it was army. It was army officers there and they were again a bit settled in their ways. They were a little bit resentful of, of half a dozen young and feisty aircrew coming in. We stayed there for, I can’t remember, say three months. I don’t know. And then we were sent to Leipzig. Now, Salzburg to Leipzig was a long way [laughs] and we went unfortunately by cattle truck, and I think we took seven days, and it wasn’t a very pleasant time as you imagine. When we got to, to the camp at Leipzig it had just been evacuated by Russian prisoners of war and was really derelict. There was nothing there. Virtually. And I know one thing that I had obtained when I was down at Salzburg was that I met a friend of mine who was an army officer who I had known some couple of years before. And he managed to obtain for me a nice blanket. A pale blue blanket which, I enjoyed mine. And I got to Leipzig. The first thing they did, one goon said, ‘That’s mine.’ and whipped it. The only thing that really strikes me about Lubeck was that it was bare. You know, it was very, very austere. We, we were very, very badly treated there. Very poor food. In fact we managed to catch the camp cat and cooked that. We went from there to Warburg to another army camp. That was about, Warburg was about the centre of Germany somewhere. I’m not quite sure. I know a lot of army, army people there. They were all, of course they were all officers and most had been, been there since, since 1939/40. That sort of time. We were there for, I don’t know probably six months at least when we upped again and were sent off to Poland. We went to a place called Posen (Poznan?) I think it was in Poland. Which was not very far from Danzig. About forty miles south of Danzig. The, the terrain there was very, very soft and sandy, and I know that particularly because digging tunnels was very, very difficult. You, you were going through the ground and you had behind you had [unclear] and that was very scary. We stayed there for perhaps [pause] perhaps a year. I don’t know. But we were posted or were posted, sent off to Stalag Luft, Stalag Luft 3. Now, people first, everybody says to me, ‘Did you go to Stalag Luft 3?’, and I said, ‘Yes’, and they said, ‘Were you in the big escape?’ And people didn’t understand that in Stalag Luft 3 there were two camps. The North Camp and the East Camp, and I was in the East Camp, and the big escape took place from the North Camp. The only escape of significant importance I think from our place was the two that got away in the horse. The — we used to take it out every day and pop it in the middle of a field and little did they realise that when we carried it out we had two people in them, and we put it down in the same place and they were digging a tunnel out and —
CJ: This was the wooden exercise horse if I remember.
JS: The wooden horse. Yes. And we were fairly, it was fairly easy to dispose of all the tunnels there because when we carried the, the wooden horse out to the playing field the, there were big paths through sort of sacks we’d made of our bed blankets and we could walk around the perimeter track and sort of let this go. So all the rubbish that they had dug from that tunnel was disposed around the camp. These two were successful. They got out and I think both of them made, made it to Sweden, I think. I think, and I think one was Swedish at any rate. We stayed there. I was in Stalag Luft 3 for about two years, and one night they, because by that time the movement of the war the Russians were, were approaching from the east. And incidentally in where I was in the, in Stalag Luft 3 we had what we called JH which stands for Jimmy Higgins. Anybody who’s been in Stalag Luft 3 East camp would know who that is because we’d arranged — we had a boffin who had got, bribed the guard to bring him bits of wireless equipment and we’d built alongside a table a radio. And so we knew exactly what was going on from UK, and every night, at whatever time it was we used to close down the place. Make certain there were no, no ferrets underneath there. People. Ferrets who wandered around looking for tunnels, and they used to give us an update of the UK news. So, although the Germans were, were propagating all the news over the biggest tunnels we actually knew what was really going on. We left there one, I think Friday night in, in February I think it was when the Russians were approaching, and the Germans decided to walk us out and we walked from there to [pause] I’m trying to remember the name of the place. A place called Luckenwalde which was about, I suppose about thirty kilometres south of Berlin. And we hadn’t been there very long and again I don’t know how long that was before a Russian small tank group probably consisting of six Soviet tanks arrived, and we fortunately had a Russian speaker. Somebody within, within our group. No matter what you wanted. Could speak Swahili or whatever. There was always somebody there because you know they gathered the aircrew from quite a wide range of, of population, and he was dealing with the, with the young I suppose. He was a lieutenant and I can remember being very amazed that all the tanks, these six or so tanks covered with people, Russians, and he said half of them were females and you couldn’t tell. And he said, one of the things he said was that he had great trouble in in communicating with his troop because they didn’t all speak the same language. Some came from Uzbekistan or somewhere. They spoke, didn’t speak Russian, and so he had great trouble. I know we had great difficulty with one of their, the Russians who decided he wanted to take watches, and he went around some of the officers and sort of said, ‘Your watch’, and we complained to this young lad, this young officer, and he said [unclear] and so he called this fellow. This fellow had a whole heap of watches at the time. And they took him out and shot him. Bang. One of the things that was extraordinary that happened that one of the tanks decided to go around the camp taking down all the barbed wire. Just tore the lights and the communications, everything with them. The lot. So, we really were, we were really a bit concerned whether the locals were going to be friendly or not, and I can remember one morning when we were sort of, we were free really. We could have gone anywhere. We went off to a building we could see about a half a mile away and it turned out to be one of these army stores and I could have picked up all sorts of gorgeous things there. Like, do you know the lovely, those lovely red flags they had in Germany with the big swastika on the bottom? But they were much too heavy to carry. But I did pick up a few, a few German — not medals but they were, they were campaign things, and I’ve still got those somewhere. We, we stayed there sort of really in limbo for a while. And I was down on the gate. We tried to maintain a semblance of, of a gate when some Americans arrived in a, in a, I think it’s a scout car, you know. One of the things that you drove. You drive one way or the other. And so two of us got on that one and they took us back to their base and then took us up to Brussels, and I flew from Brussels back to the UK. And that was sort of my war.
CJ: Very interesting. Thank you. So, what happened to you when you got home then and what did you do following on from that?
JS: Well, the end of the war I was sent up somewhere. I can’t remember where. Up in the Midlands. Really, I suppose to rehabilitate myself. And they put us all around the place like down a coal mine and up a and up a steel mill and those sorts of things. And eventually I decided that I would attempt to stay in the air force. And they sent me to, to Cairo. And I was at the headquarters in Cairo for about six months and that started to fold up and then I was sent to, to Lydda which is now Lod, in Palestine as the station adjutant. And I stayed there for about — oh I don’t know. Six months. Until they decided, the Air Force decided to give me a permanent commission in the Air Force. And I went from there to the army really. I was sent as the adjutant of an army cooperation squadron, air squadron which was flying Oxfords. And so I spent about three — oh more than that I think. Probably a year or more with the army. Flying officers all over Palestine and it was very fortunate really in a way because you had your own private aeroplane really. I used to fly off to Oman for the weekend and down to the Canal Zone for the weekend. You know, that’s as if I had a taxi of my own. Then I was very, very sports minded at the time and I was playing hockey for the squadron against another army unit and the Irish Fusiliers I think it was, and the goalkeeper smashed me across the face and knocked my front teeth out. And they decided to send me home to try and get that fixed up. And so that ended my, my time in the Middle East. And when I got back to the UK having been fixed up with some teeth, they sent me up to somewhere. Wyton or somewhere, to fly Wellington, Wellingtons, Wellingtons. Well, I converted on to Wellingtons then. Having done that they sent me to up, further up to Yorkshire to convert onto the replacement for the Lancaster which was the Lincoln, and of course the Lincoln was never introduced into the Air Force. Although I did about a hundred hours or a hundred and fifty hours on Lincoln. That’s really, they withdrew it for some reason or other. And I was sent down to, to Calshot to convert to flying boats and I flew Sunderlands. I converted on to Sunderlands there. Then after conversion was posted to Pembroke Dock. 201 Squadron. And I stayed there for a couple of years I suppose when we, we did a Cook’s Tour of, of America in the flying boat. We went to Newfoundland and Iceland and Newfoundland and Virginia and Jamaica and so on just going really on a jolly. Whilst I was at Pembroke Dock I was flight commander of the squadron because our squadron commander had had gone a bit — he, taking off one night he hit a, hit something with, with his throat and knocked that off and he went a bit queer so I was flight commander of the squadron and they one day they came in about, about Battle of Britain time asking for an aeroplane to go up to the Thames. So being flight commander I said, ‘That’s mine.’ So, I went up there and met the Port of London Authority and they drove me up and down the Thames awhile on one of their boats and I selected somewhere to land down near Greenwich. And I landed for Battle of Britain weekend at Greenwich and this [unclear] from the Port of London Authority met me and led me all the way up to Tower Bridge and they opened Tower Bridge for me [laughs] And they’d already put a buoy just outside Queen’s Gate and I moored up there and stayed in the Tower of London with the, the commander. I can’t remember what they were. The Scots Guards, I think. I can’t remember. Stayed there for six months. Sorry, six days, and then we, then all we did was return I think. We just about turned and drove back down to Greenwich and took off and straight over Buckingham Palace. Right down the Mall. And then I went back to, to Pembroke Dock. And after Pembroke Dock I was promoted there, and sent to St Mawgan as the chief ground instructor of the Maritime School there. And I stayed there for [pause] I don’t know, six months, a year, and then I was posted to the Navy in Portland. They had what they called an Access B tactical teacher. Which our job, our job was to work out the, the destroyers for the Navy. And we had a large building in which we laid on games and I had a — my colleagues were a submariner and task officer torpedo anti-submarine and myself as the airman. And we used to play games for them and had a great screen and projected all the activities while they were closed up back somewhere in the, in the back of beyond. And then having run games for them we would then give them what’s up, what they should have been doing and that was — I spent again a year, two years at, at Portland doing that job. Then I went to Saffron Walden which was part of the Royal Air Force Technical School. I spent a year there doing a signals course, and the object of the exercise was to, to produce a band of officer who could act as, as a liaison between the technician and the aircrew. And so we went for a year. We wandered all around the country and halfway around the world too looking at radars and communications systems and all that rubbish. And then, then I was posted to, to a job at Northwood in Middlesex, and I stayed there for probably about four months or more. Maybe six months. How long were you, were we at Northwood?
PS: We missed, we missed out Cyprus dad.
JS: Oh God. I went from — no went from —
PS: We went from Medmenham to Cyprus.
JS: Medmenham. We went — just a minute. We went from Portland to, no we went we went from Debden the school, Technical College, to Medmenham and then Medmenham we went to, to Northwood.
PS: Cyprus. Medmenham to Cyprus.
JS: Cyprus. Cyprus. We stayed there for what, two years?
PS: Two and a half years. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. And I came back from there, and —
PS: Did six months in West Malling.
JS: Yeah. Well, I wasn’t posted there.
PS: No. It was just a stopover.
JS: I was only there for accommodation because we got a married quarter there. And then from there I went to, to Northwood. Stayed in Northwood for a while.
PS: That was two years.
JS: Was it two years? Yeah. And then I was posted to the Air Ministry to, to be sort of a PA to the, he was an army general who was head of the Joint Services Communications.
PS: We went from Northwood to Lindholme.
JS: No. I didn’t. No. I didn’t. I went to this job in the, in the, in the Air Ministry which was, really it was a [unclear] I didn’t like at all and I got, I got on to the, to the Air Ministry, the people in the in P staff in the Air Ministry and said, ‘I want out’, and they said, ‘You can, if you wish to, retire.’ So, I said, ‘Right. I’m going.’ And I retired from my job in the Air Ministry and I came, we bought this house. I came down here. I got a job. Incidentally, before I decided to leave the Air Force I decided to find out a little bit about business and, you know trying to get a job. And so I went to, I think it was the South West College to do an HNC in Business Studies and just after that the, I think it was Wilson started the Open University and I joined that as well and got a Bachelor of Arts and that in Sociology and Economics. And later on when I was again working down in Maidstone I joined Kent University and got a Masters in Management. But I jump from leaving the Air Force to getting a job. I joined a management consultancy in London and spent probably nearly six months or more than that. More like three years wandering around the country doing jobs for them. All sorts of investigatory things like, for instance I went to, to a, an architect in London and they said to me we want to set up a new salary scheme. And so I spend my time, you know interviewing all the locals and deciding what I think [unclear] I did some work in local authorities. I worked in a number of, of — I worked down in Brecon. I worked in many of the London boroughs and after I’d been there for a while I was getting a bit fed up with moving around again like I’d done in the Air Force and I found a job in Maidstone as the personnel manager of the Borough Council down there. I stayed there for five years I think and I retired completely from there.
CJ: Very good.
JS: Then I played golf for a while.
PS: For a long time.
JS: For a few years. And then I became too old to play golf.
CJ: One question about aircraft. Coming back to your RAF times, given the experience you had on the later types, how did they compare with the Whitley that you were flying during the war?
JS: Oh. The Whitley was antediluvian. I mean it was so slow. It had no, no navigation device at all. No Gee. No H2S. Nothing like that. So, you were relying on DR really. Dropping a flare out and taking a drift and trying to calculate where you were on your course and speed calculator. You could carry a four thousand pound bomb. With that on board you could get to probably ten thousand feet. Twelve thousand feet perhaps if you were lucky. You could get about a hundred knots out of it [pause] downwind. No. It was, it was a terrible aeroplane. Awful. And it was so vulnerable you had a, you had a rear gunner, you had an upper gunner but night-time you couldn’t see a night fighter, you know. The, the defence. You were absolutely defenceless really and the attrition rate was very high.
CJ: And after the war were you able to keep in touch with people you knew from your squadron?
JS: No.
CJ: Or from the prisoner of war camps?
JS: No. No. I tried once to go to a Prisoner of War dinner in London. And it was really a failure because they’d all dispersed to other things and you had nothing in common anymore.
CJ: Was there a Squadron Association?
JS: I didn’t follow it up at all.
CJ: And how do you think Bomber Command were treated after the war for those — ?
JS: I never had a problem personally but I think that one of the things that one understood about Bomber Command was that they felt that they were sort of aggressive rather than, rather than defensive. But I mean Fighter Command are completely different or Bomber Command were. Well they’re not — I don’t think they appreciated what we were trying to do. Anybody. I never had any trouble personally.
CJ: Well, thank you very much for speaking to us today.
JS: That’s alright.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Edward Simmonds
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-14
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASimmondsJE171114, PSimmondsJE1701
Format
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00:49:41 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Poland
England--Yorkshire
Poland--Żagań
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Simmonds was the son of an RAF serviceman. As a result his childhood was spent moving around a great deal including a few years in Egypt. He joined the RAF and began training as a pilot. He joined 51 Squadron as a Whitley pilot at RAF Dishforth before transferring to 77 Squadron at RAF Topcliffe. Coming under attack the navigator was injured and so was unable to bale out forcing Jack to crash land. The surviving crew became Prisoners of War. He was sent to Stalag Luft 3 where he took an active part in the Wooden Horse escape.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Chris Johnson
51 Squadron
77 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Dulag Luft
Lincoln
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Abingdon
RAF Dishforth
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Topcliffe
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 3
Sunderland
the long march
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/177/11644/PBattyPH1691.1.jpg
e56a37cbadfeb92170bae349a1f4ba2b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Batty, Philip
Phil Batty
P Batty
Description
An account of the resource
19 Items. The collection consists of one oral history interview with Philip Batty (b. 1925). He discusses the death of his older brother Dennis early in the Second World War, his wartime service with 50 Squadron at RAF Sturgate as a wireless operator/ air gunner, and his long post war career. The collection also includes a number of group photographs of airmen after training, photographs of aircraft in southern Africa, his log book and propaganda material.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-14
Identifier
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Batty, P
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lincoln being serviced
Description
An account of the resource
Lincoln RF445, R-MG on the ground, surrounded by grass, background indistinct. Some individuals working on aircraft, another is on horseback wearing topee.
Format
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One b/w photograph
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
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PBattyPH1691
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
animal
ground crew
ground personnel
Lincoln
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1138/11694/AStaffordF180705.2.mp3
a24006c6be1c463a77708a715d03dc1e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stafford, Frank
F Stafford
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Frank Stafford (1924 - 2019, 1591661 Royal Air Force).
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frank Stafford and Tony Ward and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Stafford, F
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PS: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Patricia Selby and the interview is Frank Stafford. The interview is taking place at Mr Stafford’s home on the 5th of July at 11 am. Mr Stafford what’s your date of birth?
FS: 10th of June 1924.
PS: And where were you born?
FS: In Creswell, Derbyshire.
PS: And can you remember a lot about your childhood? Did you live in a village? Did you live in a town?
FS: Yeah.
PS: You lived in a village.
FS: I lived in a small mining village. Yeah.
PS: So what sort of things did you get up to?
FS: Oh dear.
PS: You went, did you go to school in the same village?
FS: Yes. It’s the village school. Everybody went to the one school. Boys and girls.
PS: Did you stay in the same village for your high school?
FS: Yes.
PS: What age were you when you left school?
FS: Sixteen. Fifteen. Sixteen, I think.
PS: Were they enjoyable times at school?
FS: Yes. It certainly opened my eyes to a different world at Grammar School.
PS: You had the Grammar. Did you have to travel far to the Grammar School?
FS: Yes. About ten miles away. We had a special bus took us there.
PS: When you left the Grammar School did you go straight to work?
FS: Yes. My parents were very poor. So going to work I did a repayment for all they’d done for me.
PS: What sort of work did you do?
FS: Well, I was in the Inland Revenue.
PS: Was the Inland Revenue office quite a way away from where you lived or —
FS: That was in Doncaster. About three miles away.
PS: And how did you travel there each day?
FS: On a bicycle. We walked or used a bicycle in those days.
PS: Did you enjoy that work?
FS: Yes. Very good.
PS: What did it entail?
FS: Inland revenue work? Income tax. Purchase tax. All just work.
PS: How many years did you do that for?
FS: Well, when I was eighteen I volunteered for the RAF. When I was eighteen. And there was quite a queue apparently waiting. And then I waited about I don’t know nearly twelve months before I was called up.
PS: Right. And what did you do when you were first called up?
FS: I went to London and did all the training. Physical training. Be prepared to train as a pilot or whatever.
PS: Did they send you to a special place for extra training to be a pilot or whatever?
FS: Yes. Yes. We were about half way through the course when somebody came in. An officer came in and said, ‘It looks like the war’s going to be over before you’re fully trained. So,’ he said, ‘All the training for pilots —’ and what not, ‘Is cancelled. And we’re looking at, all we want is volunteers for air gunner.’ Air gunners. ‘So you can either enlist, re-enlist for an air gunner or go on the ground crew.’ And all the class wanted to stay in aircrew. So we retrained as air gunners.
PS: Where did you do that training?
FS: All over the place.
PS: You can’t remember anywhere specific?
FS: Well, there was a lot of places we went to. I finished at Morpeth in Northumberland when I was finally given my air gunner’s badge and what not.
PS: Did you have a choice about which gun you were going to be put on?
FS: No. No choice at all. I was just allocated rear gunner and that was it.
PS: How long did the training take? Can you remember?
FS: Yeah. I finished training December.
PS: And when did you start it?
FS: Just after May, I suppose.
PS: Quite a long stint really.
FS: It was. It was quite thorough.
PS: Yeah. What did you think about it? Did you know you were going to be a rear gunner at that time or at the end of your training?
FS: No. I told you. The officer came in the class. The training for pilot, navigator —
PS: Yes. But —
FS: Or bomb aimer.
PS: But you became a rear gunner from what I understand from your daughter.
FS: Yeah.
PS: When did you know you were going to be a rear gunner out of the other gunners?
FS: When we had the crew. When we picked the crew. They said, ‘You’re a rear gunner. You’re a mid-upper gunner,’ and what not.
PS: Right. So you were then sent off to a squadron. Or whatever.
FS: Yeah. Then we started training as a crew.
PS: Oh right. So where was that? Can you remember?
FS: Several places. Not just one place. I finished up at Waddington anyway. Training a lot from there.
PS: Can you remember what squadron you were in?
FS: Hang on a sec.
[pause – pages turning]
FS: 576 squadron. That’s at Fiskerton. I went to several places, I know.
PS: Yeah. Were they all English crew?
FS: Yeah.
[pause]
PS: Is that your logbook?
FS: Hmmn. 61 Squadron, Waddington. That’s where I ended up.
PS: So you changed squadrons. You sort of moved about a bit.
FS: Yes.
PS: Was that difficult when you got to know a group of people and then they shipped you along to another plane?
FS: Well, we always flew as a crew.
PS: Yes. Did the crews move or did they —
FS: No. We were training most of the time in Lancasters.
PS: Yes.
[pause]
FS: Went to different places. Different.
[pause]
FS: Yeah.
PS: So what happened when you finished your training? They sent you on.
FS: Went to Bomber Command.
PS: Yes.
FS: And then we [pause] They gave us about three days leave. And when we went back we were operational then. Given an operation to bomb Germany. And then peace was declared.
PS: So did you actually get to go to bomb Germany?
FS: No.
PS: You didn’t.
FS: No. We were all ready to go.
PS: Yeah.
FS: And it was cancelled. All.
PS: The war came to an end.
FS: Yeah.
PS: You were very lucky, weren’t you?
FS: Yeah. I didn’t realised how lucky I was really.
PS: No.
FS: I never thought about anything else but flying.
PS: No. You trained in the back of an aircraft.
FS: Yeah.
PS: How did that feel?
FS: I got used to it. Didn’t mind at all.
PS: I’ve seen how you got in and out and what chances were if you had to get out quickly. They weren’t easy. Did you know that?
FS: There weren’t. Yes. We knew all about that. Yes. But never, never even thought about it really. I was twenty years old. Twenty, twenty one.
PS: Yeah.
FS: Just never thought about it.
PS: So you were never in the position of losing crew. Losing part of your squadron or anything like that.
FS: No. We had a good crew. We all liked each other and got on very well together. And all being young we couldn’t see any danger at all.
PS: Do you think you would have seen danger if you’d actually gone on a run?
FS: Oh yeah. They were, that’s the first thing they did was to shoot and kill the rear gunner. We knew that. Realised that. But you don’t think about it. Well, we didn’t anyway.
PS: Yes. I can see what you mean. You were young. But it was a very young crew wasn’t it?
FS: Very young. Yeah. Yeah. It’s all wrong now. Looking back it’s all wrong. I mean [pause] I saw the, I was in London when the Doodlebugs were coming over and fighting in the air and it was wasn’t very good. But again, you don’t, it seems up there out of the way. Didn’t seem to affect you very much. But of course it did.
PS: So you don’t think it had any, well obviously it did leave you some lasting effects but nothing too nasty really. Do you think? Or do you think it did?
FS: No. No.
PS: So the war came to an end. Did they just demob you then or —
FS: No. We carried on. We converted to Lincolns. Training again in that, and then after a while I broke my wrist. So that was the end of me flying. So I ended up in Pay Corps. And finally got discharged.
PS: So there were some really nasty damage to your wrist.
FS: Yeah. It was in plaster. So that was it.
PS: Yeah. Interesting.
FS: Very condensed.
PS: Yes. But do you keep up, did you keep up with any of your crew afterwards?
FS: No.
PS: No.
FS: No. I think I was the first to be demobbed I think. The crew stayed together.
PS: Did they continue flying after you’d gone into the Pay Corps for any length of time?
FS: Yes. As I say they converted to Lincolns. And they trained in them.
PS: And what did they do after they’d trained in those?
FS: I don’t know.
PS: Do you know? [laughs]
FS: I’ve no idea. I suppose they carried on or got discharged or demobbed, I suppose.
PS: So what did you do after you were demobbed?
FS: I came back to the Civil Service. Inland Revenue.
PS: Did you go back to where you were working before?
FS: Yeah.
PS: Or where did you go?
FS: Yeah. In Doncaster. Yeah.
PS: And you did that all the rest of your working life?
FS: No. The Air Force made me very restless. And then I transferred to Customs and Excise.
PS: Oh right.
FS: And I stayed in Custom and Excise until I retired.
PS: I should think Customs and Excise was more exciting. More interesting.
FS: I suppose so. Yeah. But I was very restless. I couldn’t settle down.
PS: I think that’s understandable. So you moved about from Doncaster did you?
FS: I moved a lot. Yeah. I moved all over the country.
PS: Nice.
FS: Sheffield. London. Harwich. Kings Lynn. Letchworth. Northampton and —
PS: You did get around.
FS: Yes. You see, I was very restless.
PS: Did you settle down eventually or you stayed restless?
FS: I suppose I settled down eventually. Yeah. [pause] Yeah.
PS: So now looking back what sort of effect do you think being in the RAF made to you? As it obviously made your restless but —
FS: Well, I saw a bit of the world anyway. Italy. Malta. And I flew over Germany. We took some VIPs over Germany to show them the damage that had been done by all the bombing. It was terrible.
PS: Yeah.
FS: It was shocking.
PS: That was, was that before, still while you were in the RAF?
FS: That’s when I was in the RAF then.
PS: Yeah.
FS: We just used it as a, to show different people what it was like in Germany.
PS: Yeah.
FS: And it was terrible.
PS: Did you have to do many of those trips?
FS: No. Not many. But we did a few. We brought back some Army people. Bring them back to England.
PS: So, what did you think about it at the time or immediately afterwards?
FS: I didn’t think about it at all.
PS: It was, when did you start thinking about it?
FS: When did I start thinking about it? [pause] I don’t think ever. I just accepted it.
PS: Yeah. It’s just looking back now.
FS: Yeah.
PS: Being asked to recall it it’s —
FS: It’s terrible. Yeah. I’m against all wars. They’re all terrible.
PS: Yep. When you were in the RAF what sort of things did you do to relax when you weren’t training or in flight?
FS: Sleep. Used to fly at any time. Day or night. You couldn’t get enough sleep. [pause] But we were well looked after I must say. There was always a meal when we came back from flying. A meal ready for us. There used to be a meal and then back to bed and wait for the next flying.
PS: These trips you did after. You know, when you were taking the people up to have a look. They were quite long were they? They were quite long trips were they not?
FS: Yes. I mean —
PS: So, so —
FS: Fly to Germany and around to Germany. Quite long trips. Yes.
PS: So you’d need something to eat when you came back.
FS: I forget.
PS: Did you take stuff with you to eat or was there stuff on the plane to eat?
FS: No. Never. No. Well, normally we used to fly about twelve thousand feet and go and have, we had oxygen masks on so we couldn’t.
PS: No.
FS: I told you. We didn’t eat.
[pause]
PS: Anything else you want to tell me?
FS: Hmmn?
PS: Anything else you want to tell me?
FS: Not really. It was a phase. I think I was very lucky. I didn’t realise how lucky I was. Perhaps was a little bit disappointed we didn’t go on a bombing raid but I’m glad we didn’t. So it was mostly training all the time. After we trained on Lancasters. Then we trained on Lincolns. And then I just came out.
PS: When you took these VIPs to have a look at Germany after things were finished what you, were you, you weren’t still sitting on a gun were you? Or were you?
FS: Oh yeah.
PS: You were.
FS: We always flew with a full crew. We had to.
PS: Oh, I see.
FS: So if if the pilot was learning something it would be a full crew. Same with the navigator, the wireless operator. Full crew. Always.
PS: So you did get a sort of sense of what it was like. I mean, no one was firing at you I know but being in the back like that.
FS: I saw what was going on. Yeah.
PS: Yes.
FS: Yeah.
PS: Yes.
FS: I had a good view. So that’s about it I reckon.
PS: Well, you’ve done very well. Thank you very much indeed. I’m quite happy to sit here if you want to try and think of anything else. But that is fine as far as I’m concerned.
FS: No.
PS: Ok.
FS: As I say it’s a long time ago.
PS: Yeah.
FS: A different world. I’m anti-war and I can’t [pause] I don’t understand people who wanted to fight and threaten and whatnot. I just don’t understand it.
PS: No.
FS: Yeah.
PS: Well, thank you very much indeed. I’m very grateful for letting me come. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Frank Stafford
Creator
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Patricia Selby
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-07-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AStaffordF180705
Format
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00:29:19 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Stafford grew up in a small mining village in Creswell, Derbyshire. After leaving school at 16, he went to work for the Inland Revenue, from here at the age of 18, he volunteered for the Royal Air Force. He was sent to London to begin physical training and then onto various other places for further training to be part of a Lancaster air crew. Fortunately the training was cancelled as the war would be coming to an end. Frank could either volunteer as an air gunner or join the ground crew, or enlist. He remained with the air crew and finished his training in RAF Morpeth. He joined 576 Squadron, went onto join 61 Squadron, and eventually became operational. The first operation to Germany was cancelled with declaration of peace. Frank was transferred to train on the Lincoln. After breaking his wrist, he could no longer fly, and was discharged.
Contributor
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Jennie Mitchell
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--London
England--Lincolnshire
England--Northumberland
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
576 Squadron
61 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Cook’s tour
Lancaster
Lincoln
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Morpeth
RAF Waddington
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1200/11773/PWilkinsNE1704.2.jpg
0b82f31961100616000f1a53909d6996
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1200/11773/AWilkinsNE170922.1.mp3
f352a60c5f4b1c6382ed898fe3ada8ca
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wilkins, Norman Edward
N E Wilkins
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. An oral history interview with Wing Commander Norman Wilkins (1925 - 2018, 1807646, 164478 Royal Air Force) parts of his log book and photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 7 Squadron Pathfinders.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Norman Wilkins and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wilkins, NE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: So, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre.
NW: Right.
CB: And today I’m interviewing Norman Wilkins. His wife Ann is also present. The interviewer is myself Cathy Brearley and today’s date is Friday the 22nd of September 2017. And the interview is taking place at Norman and Ann’s home near Worthing in West Sussex.
NW: Thank you.
CB: So, thank you very much.
NW: That’s alright.
CB: For giving this interview for us. Thank you.
NW: That’s really accurate.
CB: So, could you just start off by telling me whereabouts you were born and about your early life and where you grew up?
NW: Yes. I was born in a place called West Norwood which is what? South London really. Yeah. South west or south east. I can’t remember which. And I was such a weakling that the doctor said to my family and let, because it was the days of the big smogs and things, ‘Unless you get this boy out of London he isn’t going to make old bones.’ So, my father who worked for the railway got a job down in — we moved to Redhill in Surrey. And that’s, I suppose that’s when I joined the ATC. A little bit later. And that’s how it rolled on into the Air Force. I was in the ATC a long time. And we’re still involved with the ATC in that when we lived in Kent, the Kent Wing Commander had got such a huge parish that he used to give me about a third of his inspections to do. Which we eagerly did. Which was rather lovely. But now we’re members. We’ve got a certificate that says I’m a member of 176 Brighton and Hove Squadron.
CB: So, how old were you when war broke out?
NW: I must have been fifteen would I? Wait a minute. Which was about 1940. I was born in 1925 so I must have been fourteen then. Take. Yes. Fourteen. And I went to Reigate Grammar School having passed the necessary exams which you had to in those days. And the Battle of Britain was on then. One, a German bomber came down across the playground as you’d call it. And the gunners shot all the windows out in the school [laughs] but we were all outside so nobody was hurt. And fortunately he crashed just down the road. So I set off with my father’s 410 shotgun to join the savages that were going to hold the crew up [laughs] but Corporal Jones and Co got there first. So, that’s alright I remember about that bit. Then I grew up there completely. Joined, joined what was the first thing was the Air Defence Cadet Corps you’d have heard off which was set up, worthy people who believed that where the Air Force was the way ahead. So, Air Defence Cadet Corps turned into ATC which, which took me into the University Air Squadron at Oxford. I was in New College Oxford in a scheme that if you joined the air training — sorry, if you joined the University Air Squadron your fees were paid for by the RAF. Which was a very good scheme and that’s when I remember there was a hideous Flight Sergeant used to bully us in the, in the, when I was in the UAS. Blow me down about two years later he popped up again in Cambridge [laughs] when I was still at the Initial Training Schools which, you’ll, you’ll know about the RAF training system then as well as or probably better than everybody else. You’ve heard about it so many times. When, then we all took off didn’t we? To Heaton Park, Manchester. And I was there for, for some time. But again having opted for Navigator Training I met, I made friends, which is neither here nor there. I made friends with a chap called Eddie Cullen. Now, there was, he was a son of a big grocer’s then in those days called Cullen and Sons. Didn’t matter then but it mattered later. In the middle of the night we marched off. Got into a train for Canada. All the blinds were pulled down so you couldn’t look out and see where you were going. Because I always remember as we, it was all supposed to be terribly secret but as we marched out of the camp there were a bunch of people’s girlfriends there saying, have a, ‘Goodbye. Have a good time in Canada.’ [laughs] So much for security. And when we were allowed to put the blinds up in the morning what were we going to get into? Queen Elizabeth the First. All grey paint painted. So, that’s how I went over to Canada. In the Elizabeth the First. Which, as you know went unescorted because she was faster than the Destroyers that would have escorted us. So it was only four and a half days. Now, in, we were in the Reception Centre in Canada, Eddie Cullen played, paid off because there were people there who’d been hanging about a long time to get on with their training. Eddie Cullen immediately recommended and met one of the Corporals. Because Corporals ran the training system as you know. They ran the air training system really. He met, realised that he’d been at school with this Corporal so we agreed, Eddie and I, go, he’d go and see him and find out whether we could go to London, Ontario — London, Ontario which sounded an attractive spot. Eddie came back and said, ‘Uh huh got to wait three months to do that. But Portage le Prairie next week.’ Right. That was it. Portage le Prairie please. And off we went. That, then the next phase of course was right across Canada in a train. Through the next, through the — what was it called? Lake of the Woods which was a beautiful area. Until we emerged at Winnipeg where the bands were playing. Where they were playing. And up we carried on to Portage le Prairie where there actually weren’t platforms. You got down from the train onto the ground. [laughs] Which didn’t matter because the trucks were there to take us to the airport which until very recently was still, still doing Navigator training for the Canadian Air Force. And we were there however long it was. We were there for the winter course because I remember being in these Ansons you opened a step up, stood on it, opened a flap in the roof and did your astro through that. Temperature would go down to minus fifty of course on the Canadian prairies. And the other thing was you were working hard to make a good plot to get back home but the Canadian pilots who were all civilian bush pilots that had been recruited, you heard that as well, they, they made their own arrangements. So thinking they were helping you but in fact they were doing the very opposite. But it didn’t matter. They flew the radio ranges that they’d always flown. And now that must have been six months through the winter of 1942/43. And then at the end of the course all the others went away to go on the OTU HCU trip and I thought to myself what have I done wrong? Waved them all goodbye. Of course what had happened in fact because I was number one on the course that automatically nominated me for the Pathfinder Training Unit. And so eventually I went but of course I went to squadron very quickly. They had to plough their way through OTUs and HCUs and fly in Manchesters and other horrible things. [laughs] And that really gets me completely to 7 Squadron where on the day I had been there a couple of days and my skipper who — the crew couldn’t operate because their previous radar man had failed. So, they couldn’t fly because they hadn’t got seven people. He was told, ‘Come to the adjutants office again. We’ve got a new radar man for you.’ Well, I was still, still nineteen wasn’t I? Yes. Yes. And I saw, George’s face fell as he thought, ‘Oh my God. What will I do with this little bog rat?’ [laughs] And he walked with me into the crew room where the crews were sitting on benches either side and as we walked past you saw the look of pleasure on their face as they realised I wasn’t for them [laughs]
CB: Whereabouts was this that that happened?
NW: That happened at Oakington itself. Yes. Yes. Because I’d been posted to Oakington from Warboys and that bit happened. That’s when we crewed up. And I met people like, with a very good English name of [pause] I’ve forgotten it. Something like [unclear] Emmanuel Azzaro, who was a Brighton taxi driver. Or had been.
CB: Really?
NW: He was the rear gunner.
CB: And who was the pilot?
NW: No. He was the rear gunner.
CB: Who was the pilot? Who were the other people?
NW: Oh, the pilot was George Harvey who had flown as a civil flight for the National Airways of New Zealand before the war.
CB: And who were the other crew members?
NW: Well, the other member was my, well he had to be a friend because we sat thigh to thigh like that. Bill Parnham, who I don’t know what he did before that. The rear, upper gunner became a policeman just after the war. I don’t know what he did before then unless he was a police cadet. That’s right.
CB: What was his name?
[pause]
NW: Pass. I can’t get it.
CB: No.
NW: Oh. Victor Emmanuel Azzaro. That was it. Victor Emmanuel Azzaro was the rear gunner. The Brighton. Now, because once Azzaro said, ‘You lot ought to come down and see Brighton. It’s a wonderful place.’ So, we all trooped off on a train and came down and put up. We were put up at, in Victor Emmanuel Azzaro’s house. I remember the disgusting business because they had one of these steel shelters. The Anderson shelters were in the garden if you remember. The other one’s were table top ones. Azzaro’s family were tipped out and told to go away somewhere and we, we all took [laughs] over the shelter. And the excuse was we were more valuable to the war effort because we were a bomber crew.
[pause]
AW: [unclear]
CB: Ann’s reminding, Ann’s suggesting reminding you about a story about a wheelbarrow at Brighton.
NW: Oh, yes that was after the war. Yes.
CB: Oh, was it?
NW: That was after the war. Yes.
CB: Ok. Well we can come back to that if you like then.
NW: I was flying with a different man but eventually because I’d become a senior radar person and of course so we only went when the weather was C R A P. We rarely went in good weather. But I can remember towards the end of the bomber offensive we began to go on a few daylights. And on one particular daylight the gunners got very excited because we were going to be attacked by this ME163. A little baby jet. And why they were excited was they couldn’t move the turrets quick enough to catch up with the thing it went so fast. Just a small memo. Other than that I remember no other incidents really. Oh. We went into Cologne but we had P51 Mustangs of the US Air Force escorting us. Right above our heads. But we realised during these daylights how many aircraft and crews had been lost with collisions or accidents because we would be, we were straying, staying on this day on the bomb run and all of a sudden bombs started coming down all around us. There was a guy just above dropping his bomb load. Well, that was because of course the, everybody set their pressure setting but because they would be cheapo they weren’t all exactly the same. Or they should have been but they weren’t. They all got the same setting but they only needed to be a few feet different to be up there or over there and knock a wing off.
CB: Did you do any astro navigation?
NW: Bill insisted we, we did once. But by then another aid called LORRAINE, LORAN had come in. And because we were in Pathfinder f off everything that was brand new in navigation was fitted to our aircraft. But we didn’t do, we didn’t do much with that because Bill would be plotting right there. I’m sitting right here. And we agreed we’d do fix. We’d fix the aircraft six minutes, four minutes and he’d give me a nudge and of course we got a perfect radar pictures. You could see, you’ve seen many of them. So, that was the best way to navigate the aircraft and it finished beautifully in the bomb run. I did lots of astro but that was on Vulcans.
CB: That was later.
NW: Ah.
CB: Yeah.
NW: By then, as I was pretty senior I was picked out to fly with some other crews who hadn’t got a radar man. And one I flew with was a man Phillip P Mather. M A T H E R. He was a big drinking man which doesn’t really matter but his mother lived in that lovely square.
AW: Brunswick.
NW: Brunswick Square. And so, the war was finished. I had flown with Mather on two sorties or one. I can’t remember which. So, I knew him pretty well. And he said, ‘You need to come down and see Brighton.’ So, off we went down to Brighton. And one day we all marched out with the intention of having a pint in every pub in this street. Western Road. Yes. When we, what was annoying about PP Mather was he got all the girls. Didn’t matter how aged they were. Whether they were sixteen to sixty five he got the lot. No one else got a look in because he looked like Ivor Novello and was often mistaken for him. However, when we, when we, when it was decided it was time to go back — oh yes I remember. His mother was an agony aunt for one of the magazines, and Phil, we were all a bit frightened of her so when Phil said, ‘Right. We should go home,’ off we went. And we all were traipsing along and we came, we’d seen the same corner where there was a shop Mence Smiths Do you remember Mence Smiths. No.
CB: No.
NW: Outside was a gleaming brand new wheelbarrow. That was ours straightaway. I climbed in it. Phil picked up the handles and off we went pursued by an employee of Mense Smiths in his warehouse coat. I think they were called khaki coat. He escorted us with the strict instructions to get the wheelbarrow back. But just at the same time a policeman was marching along with us. And we looked and said — he was wearing aircrew ribbons, and he said, ‘Don’t worry, gentlemen. I will navigate through the traffic with you.’ So off we went with our wheelbarrow. Pushed it all back. He held up the traffic, because we were one side and Brunswick Square was the other, while we crossed, handed it back to the man in the warehouse coat and we scuttled in to his mother’s flat. Having pushed this wheelbarrow about a mile I suppose. We’ve been to that corner since. Or identified it since.
AW: One and a half.
NW: There aren’t any wheelbarrows there now.
AW: [unclear] has gone.
NW: Mense Smiths had been gobbled up into something else. Yeah. Just a silly incident but that of course was just after the war. Philip Mather disappeared into the blue. I’d imagine if I looked in the Brighton directory I’d find him. But I’ve no intention of doing so because he’s a dangerous man [laughs]
CB: So, could you explain a little bit about how the radar navigation system actually worked?
NW: Yes. Yes. Now, that was the [unclear] the war expired, we’ll, we’ll jump a bit if that’s alright with you. The war expired and I got a permanent commission to stay in the Air Force and I got posted to what was then the Air Ministry. Well, while I was there in a very interesting intelligence job the cry went in, out in things called AMOs — Air Ministry Orders saying virtually, ‘Where have all the radar navigators had gone? If anybody knows where they are try — ’ Winco Buggins — I can’t think of his name of course because it didn’t matter, ‘On this number.’ So, I pounced on the phone. Got this lovely fellow on the phone and I said, ‘Hello sir, I’m here.’ ‘Right,’ he said, ‘Well, you’re about to be somewhere else. We’re starting a radar course for the V Force at Lindholme and you’ll be on number one course. So, I found myself on number one course. Myself, and twelve bright shiny pilot officers. Flying officers who were all from the Canberras force and whereas my radar training to get on the Pathfinder Force had been three weeks this, they decided the training for the V force would be more than a year. So we were at Lindholme for more than a year. And then I went to Hemswell. Nothing to do with the V force. I finished up commanding this Lincoln squadron which was doing the radar training for the V Force. So it was still the same thing. When I’d finished that —
CB: That was at Hemswell.
NW: That was at —
CB: RAF Hemswell.
NW: it came and I’d found my Jaguar. Oh yes. Outside the officer’s mess was this. You wouldn’t have remembered them because you’re too young. Jaguars in those days used to had P100 headlights. Huge. Huge things. This — and I kept eyeing this and I borrowed somebody’s metal polish in the middle of the night and went out and worked on these lights and found that the chrome was perfectly sound. Eventually I said to the mess manager, ‘Who owns that Jaguar out there?’ He said, ‘Oh, that’s the chap,’ and again I wouldn’t remember the name because it wasn’t relevant. He went off to Suez to fight the Suez war. I said, ‘Any chance you’d give me his name?’ and, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘Yes. I’ll give you a name. As a matter of fact,’ he said, ‘I’ve got a home address for him.’ So, I wrote to this chap and said, ‘Could we talk on the phone?’ This chap rang me in the officer’s mess at Hemswell and said [pause] must have been Hemswell. Yes. He said, ‘Ah,’ he said, ‘Why are you ringing me?’ I said, ‘Because I’d like to have your Jaguar.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘That old wreck,’ he said, ‘I couldn’t be bothered to pick it up because while I was away Aunt Fanny died and left me a small fortune so I’m in to new cars now,’ he said. ‘But I have got a scrap man from Lincoln coming out for it and he’s going to give me forty pounds for it.’ So, I said, ‘Right. Now, if I sent you a cheque for forty five pounds you’d send me the keys and the logbook.’ ‘I’d be happy to do that,’ he said. So, that’s what happened. It was my Jaguar. But what I hadn’t thought of was who could tow to start a two ton Jaguar. Now, by sheer fluke I was with, flying with a Squadron Leader Skeane another huge tall man who’d got an old American Packard six which was capable of pulling this thing. So, came the day when I’d been posted to Finningley and been over there and picked my married quarter when squadron, we got hold of a massive rope. I don’t know. Must have got it from a sports field or something. It was the sort of thing that was being used for the tug of war. We’d attached it to this. Away we went. Let the clutch out. Bang. She started. And all I could do then was flash the lights at Don Skeane to stop. Drove back to Finningley and used it for about two and a half years.
CB: Is that how long you were at RAF Finningley?
NW: I was at RAF Finningley.
CB: Yeah.
NW: Yes.
CB: And which aircraft were you in when you were there?
NW: Sorry?
CB: Which aircraft were you flying in while you were at — ?
NW: Vulcans
CB: Oh right. Yeah.
NW: 101 Squadron.
CB: Yeah.
NW: Was a Vulcan squadron.
CB: And you flew in Lancasters and Ansons during the war.
NW: Well, yes. Ansons in Canada.
CB: Yeah.
NW: Old ones. Built over there. And when I got back straight into, at the Pathfinder Training Unit straight into Lancaster.
CB: So, what was it like flying in a Lancaster?
NW: Oh. Chummy because we were sitting like this. Bill there. Me here. Just the other side but I couldn’t see him. Oh, I must say and you must have heard this many times that people started talking about fear. Well, we didn’t have any fear because we were behind black-out curtains. So I couldn’t even see the flight engineer and the pilot because they were behind blackout. But then we were so busy fix fix fix fix fix. Getting it right. Until we were on the bomb run. Then it was only then when it was that either the markers gone and the bombs have gone did we pull the blackout curtains back. Stand up and have a look at what was going on, and what had we done? And headed back for home very smartly. I don’t know whether that’s of any value or not.
CB: No. It’s interesting.
NW: But, oh there was one serious incident when I was talking to you about accidents. When one time over Germany there was a wacking great bumph. The whole aircraft started rocking and when we’d all recovered ourselves and decided that our trousers were still clean, George said to me, ‘Norman. What do you reckon?’ ‘I’ve got no radar,’ I said, ‘It must have been something to do with the radar. I’m going to put an oxygen bottle on and go back and see if I can find what damage was done.’ Well, the radar, all we’d got back there was a big hole. The radar had been, had collided with something and had gone. [pause] During debriefings we heard that a Halifax had lost a tail and had landed successfully. So, two things were put together. The Halifax had taken our radio off and our radio had taken his, one of his fins off. That was the most, that was the worst feeling that we had. Most of the time we never saw flak or anything like that because we were behind our black out curtains. But that wasn’t very good and I’ve got a picture of that somewhere but I don’t suppose that was worth looking for. That was the biggest incident that we had was loading. We couldn’t of course carry out an attack that day. We turned very smartly and headed for home. Oh, and there was an interesting — [laughs] On another incident we were on the way home and Bill Parnham said to me, ‘Norman, have you ever heard of,’ — where’s the market? ‘Ford?’ I said, ‘No. Of course I’ve never heard of Ford.’ He said, ‘Well, we’re not to go to Oakington. 8 Group aircraft have been diverted to Ford.’ So, we said, ‘Where the devil’s that?’ Well, Brill got out every map he’d got and eventually we found Ford and discovered it was a Naval Air Station up the road from us here really. Now it’s a big market at the weekends. But we found Ford and arrived there and we were, we were something like a top of a huge, because all Pathfinder aircraft based at the Pathfinder bases when the fog had appeared, the Lincolnshire fog all diverted to Ford. Not hundreds. I suppose about fifteen. And George eventually said, and he’d been we’d gradually worked our way down the stack. George decided he’d had enough of that and said, called out, ‘My fuel gauge is getting very low. Low. I need an immediate approach and landing.’ So, that’s what we did to be greeted by some flying officer who was in charge of Ford who said, ‘I’ve got accommodation for you gentlemen. And I’ve got supper for you but I have to tell you it’s only baked beans.’ Oh yeah. Very interesting. So, we slept on, this is where the gunners came good because they had got, many of them, the old fashioned leather fur lined jackets. The rest of us of course had what I would call ordinary thin flying overalls on. The point being we slept on, on the springs of beds because what the pilot officer hadn’t told us was yes he’d got beds but he hadn’t got any mattresses. So, the next morning everybody rose, had their breakfast. Baked beans again. And we discovered that we had three squadron commanders with us from the, from the, from the 8 Group. And the three squadron commanders said, ‘Can we get out of here?’ ‘No. You can’t,’ said the flying officer, ‘We were instructed that you should stay here.’ And I remember we looked. There were Lancasters parked in odd positions all over the airfield because of course nobody could see in the dark. Fortunately nobody had run into another one. They were all over the place. The squadron commander suddenly said, ‘Where’s the nearest pub?’ and the chap said, well it’s Little Dogsbody or somewhere where it was. About seven or eight miles away. So the squadron, the squadron said to him, ‘Right. Firstly, preferably you must know his number in the officer’s mess. Ring him up and tell him a lot of people are coming to drink his beer ration.’ Because beer was rationed as you know. And he said, ‘Secondly, transport please.’ So, a couple of three tonners were appeared and we all scrambled into it and off we went to the pub. And it didn’t take long before his beer ration had gone. And while we were still having a good time, must have been about an hour and a half later the flying officer suddenly appeared and said, ‘Gentlemen, time up,’ he said, ‘Pathfinder bases are clear. You are to immediately return to base.’ So, after another pint, I think or two we went back with the flying officer and his two trucks, scrambled in our Lancasters and went back home again. Just another daft event but we still with our, we still had and it wasn’t the same night so, we must have had a radar that worked. There was one working there. Now, what’s interesting is a friend of Ann’s who was a violinist in either the RPO or the LPO was, who we now are in touch with has got a German friend whose job is to come — is to research bombs. That’s why the bomb load is written in the bottom there. Now, he’s coming over at some time in the very near future because we meet these people about every three to six, three months. He’s coming over. He stays with them at a B&B when he’s over researching at Kew. At the National, is it the National —
AW: Archives.
NW: Archive office. That’s right. Now, he knows the reason I’ve kept that is I’ll get a decent copy of it and he will take it away with him and put it in his research.
CB: And you’re.
NW: So, that’s a bit left over from —
CB: And you’re now president of the 7 Squadron Association.
NW: I’m president of 7 Squadron Association. Yes. Which we shall be going to —
AW: 1983 we formed it.
NW: You’re going to the ATC.
AW: 1983, the 7 Squadron Association was formed.
NW: Right.
CB: And do you have an annual — ?
NW: I was the chairman.
AW: Yes.
NW: For over ten years.
AW: Yeah.
NW: And got booted upstairs to take over from an air commodore who was the president. And I’ve been the president now since oh a very long time.
AW: Yeah. And we meet once or twice a year but lots of us are in touch with each other all the time on the phone.
NW: Oh yes.
AW: Visit each other. Or —
NW: That’s good.
AW: Yes.
NW: Oh yes. Oh yes.
AW: Because again it’s it’s like a second family.
NW: It’s like a family, isn’t it?
AW: It’s like a family. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: You haven’t mentioned Operation Manna yet.
NW: Yes.
CB: And I understand you were involved in that.
NW: Well, badly briefed again. We were told that we were going to go to Holland. So, we were going to go this way. Near Rotterdam. Another one was going to go near Amsterdam probably. And as at low level we were to open the bomb doors and load and release bags of food for the starving Dutch. So off we went and as I said we went — well we didn’t climb up ever that day. We stayed low level. Joined a run in to where Pathfinder markers had been lit to by, by good Dutchmen on the ground. And as we went in I suppose it was yes, polder. The side of a polder was filled with medium sized German flak guns and they tracked us as we went across to release our food and likewise our gunners were tracking them as we went by. But we’d got top cover of American Mustangs so the Krauts very sensibly didn’t make anything of it. Years later, but we didn’t know at the time we were told including by a Dutch policeman. He said, but he said, ‘We were starving,’ he said, ‘People were actually falling down in the, in the street, from starvation.’ He said, ‘If it wasn’t you my — I wouldn’t be here.’ This was one of our escorting policemen when we went there on Manna in the 50s.
AW: Yeah. We went there. I can’t remember what year.
CB: Ann is now showing me a collage of photographs. Was this given to Norman?
NW: Yes.
CB: By the Dutch people when you went over on a visit.
NW: Oh, quite incredible. Quite incredible.
CB: Which is a photograph. A series of photographs.
NW: The equivalent of the, of the Home Guard.
CB: A collage of photographs.
NW: He took holiday to escort us everywhere. Everywhere we went we were escorted by these policemen who were dressed in white. White leather. And we met, mostly met schools.
AW: No. We went everywhere and were given the freedom of the cities.
NW: Oh. Freedom of here and the freedom of there. Yeah.
AW: These are made by the grandchildren of the people at the time in what they’d been told from their grandparents that actually happened. And we each had three or four of these placemats.
CB: Well, they’re lovely.
AW: We wrote to the children.
NE: That was very clever certainly.
CB: The children’s drawings.
AW: Yeah.
CB: The grandchildren’s drawings that have been coloured in and laminated for you to use as placemats. A very grateful nation.
AW: Yes.
NW: We had to bend like this so they could get their clipboards to write on.
AW: As we drove in to each town or village —
NW: Oh.
AW: In the coaches the townspeople or the village people were fighting each other to get on the coaches to hug the men that had brought them food.
NW: That was a very emotional business that.
AW: And the whole week.
NW: Was like that.
AW: We were escorted by what we would call the Territorial Army.
NW: Yeah.
AW: As help. They had taken one week’s holiday out of their ordinary pay and jobs to escort us. And the police escorted us. Two coaches. The whole time. Wherever we went and we went to schools, to towns.
NW: Yes. Villages.
AW: To villages. To the racecourse where you dropped food.
NW: Racecourse.
AW: And a Lancaster came over.
NW: That’s right. A Lancaster came over.
AW: And dropped bread while we were there.
NW: And did a dummy food drop on the racecourse.
AW: Yeah. Very moving. It was an incredibly moving week.
NW: Yeah. It was indeed.
AW: None of us stopped crying the whole time because we couldn’t believe.
NW: The children.
AW: Because these young men who flew in the Lancasters didn’t actually know that people were dropping dead in the street at the time.
NW: No. We didn’t know that.
AW: You didn’t know that, did you?
NW: It was the policeman. I went to speak to him in his white leathers and I said, ‘Thank you very much for escorting us.’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘Thank you for being here. If it wasn’t for you I wouldn’t be here.’ I said, ‘Why is that then?’ He said, ‘Well, you did, my parents tell me that people were dropping dead in the street and if you hadn’t come and did the food drops it would have been in a very very serious situation and I wouldn’t be here.’ But they were all, well they were all like. Weeping.
AW: Everywhere we went, as you can see there were so many things that happened.
CB: There was a singer.
AW: That week. Oh, we had a singing.
CB: A band.
AW: Bands. We had a complete day with old vehicles and their vintage things. The Americans came because they called it Chowhound. So, there were a few Americans there.
NW: Yes.
AW: But I think the most moving man was the Polish man who came with his daughter from Poland and the whole week he never spoke to anybody or reacted to anything at all that was happening. And on the Friday night the hotel who were involved also with the Manna operation gave us Freedom of the City of Rotterdam and also at any time if we wished to go back to the hotel we stayed there free of charge.
CB: Wow.
AW: And there was a small speech by one man and then the whole company were asked if they wanted to speak. And Norman stood up and spoke on behalf of 7 Squadron and then the Polish man said he would like to speak. And in perfect English —
NW: Yeah.
AW: He brought the whole room —
NW: To tears.
AW: Crying. To tears again.
NW: Incredible.
AW: And you thought he hadn’t taken any of it on board but he had and it was so emotional. That was the end of our week there. These things don’t happen now.
CB: No. It’s wonderful that they have done and you’ve been.
AW: Yeah.
NW: Yes. It was incredible.
CB: How many times did you go over?
AW: We went —
CB: With the with food. How many trips did you make with the food?
NW: I imagine, I’ll have to go and get my logbook.
CB: I know you’ve got your logbook. I’ll just pause the tape a moment.
NW: I went.
CB: Just pause it a minute.
[recording paused]
NW: 1970 I went to six of them. Headquarters, Bomber Command. As it still was. And we went over as the British judges in the American. So, I flew in B52s then. It was only a few sorties but —
CB: And that’s when you asked for the four Vulcans to come in in formation.
NW: No. They — that was 1977. That was ’69. Can you remember, well you can see the States here. Here is 1969. The lilac city of Spokane in Washington State. Down here is Orlando in Florida. Well, there couldn’t be a bigger trip between the two. Not that that was relevant at the time to having done the, we had our own Americans over to fly with us in the competition where we were based in Orlando. Which was a nice holiday for the lads. And to make sure a court was able to get plenty of attention because you’ve worked out I’m such a modest person I took my own piper with me from Waddington. He was an engine mechanic but he, he was a Scotsman who played in a pipe band. So he made the, all the television rounds in Florida of course. And all the meetings, everybody’s Caledonia associate. If you saw him he couldn’t stand up. He was all like [laughs] he had such a great trip.
CB: Do you remember his name?
AW: So great you had to send him home.
NW: No. I can’t. No. No I can’t. No. I had two adjutants I sent home. Yes.
AW: Getting drunk.
NW: One of them. Yeah. We hadn’t managed get to that business of the wing commanders in the UK. Do we? Oh dear.
AW: No.
NW: No. Well, except to say because you’ll wonder why I’ve closed up on it. This guy thought the work thought the world was an enormous place. And to get from Spokane back to the UK when the competition was over would mean racing across America on a stagecoach. That would take weeks and weeks. Then you’d be on the sailing schooner coming across the Atlantic. And eventually months later you’d arrive in the UK. Now, that wouldn’t have mattered but unfortunately he’d said to a certain young lady there, ‘You must come and see me when I’m in, when I’m at home.’
AW: She did.
NW: In 1970 the corporal on duty at Scampton had a young lady came up, knocked on the door said, ‘Now, corporal can you tell me where wing commander,’ umpty ump, ‘Lives?’ ‘Yes madam,’ he said. ‘Why?’ She said, ‘Well, I want to call on him.’ So Corporal locked up the guard room and took the young lady to the Wing Commander’s house. Knocked on the door. Who answered it?
AW: His wife.
NW: The Wing Commander’s wife who was in a wheelchair. A worse situation I think there could possibly be. So, I was building up the squadron. Waddington then. This gentleman rang me and said, ‘Norman, I’m in terrible trouble.’ Gave me an outline of what had happened. He said, ‘You must have some young men in your lot now,’ he said. ‘Could you spare one of them to entertain this lady for about a week?’ he said, ‘Take, take her out here. Take her out there.’ We’ll find out everything else we can find. Well, I had, the Air Ministry had given me a light, young baby Lightning pilot. He was, I think he was twenty one but he was held up in training because the Lightnings were as usual with British aircraft instruction were way behind. So, the Ministry man said, ‘Would you mind having this?’ ‘Yeah,’ I said, ‘Lovely. I can do with an adjutant.’ So, this, the guy at Scampton said, ‘Yes,’ he said. ‘Right. See what you can do and you can tell him I’ll pay his expenses.’
AW: To give her away.
NW: So, I called this chap in. He was perfect for the job because he had a two seater sports car. And I said, ‘You’d better sit down. I’m going to tell you some very good news. Well, it could be if you agree to do it.’ I said, ‘There’s a nice good looking young lady staying at Scampton and certain people, including me would like you to entertain her for the next seven or ten days.’ I said, ‘All you’ve got to do is to take her out to a good typically English pub. Take her into Lincoln and see this, that and the everything else.’ Wonderful. The chap said, well he said, ‘Yeah but I’m not terribly well paid sir.’ I said, ‘This is the good bit. The wing commander will pay.’ ‘My God,’ he said. Shot off like a rocket then. [laughs] And they rampaged around Lincolnshire. Pulling down direction boards and doing all the stupid things that students normally do. But it did get her out of the way.
AW: It wasn’t so much away when you took the bombing competitions over to the US the guys getting drunk. It was the fact that they were on television being interviewed drunk. And that didn’t look very good.
CB: Not so good.
AW: For us. In the light of — so that’s why he had to send some of them back home.
NW: Well, the girl was —
AW: Don’t worry darling don’t go into that one.
NW: I’m not going to go —
AW: Because it’s so long, you know.
NW: No.
[recording paused]
CB: Well, thank you ever so much both of you. I can’t think of any other particular questions to ask you. Is there anything else —
NW: Lovely to see you. As I told you —
CB: That you can think of.
NW: You’re absolutely right for the job.
CB: Thank you ever so much and thank you so much for your time. And thank you Norman for recounting your memories for us of such interesting times. Thank you.
NW: Sorry some of them have been way out. I agree.
CB: No. It’s been absolutely fantastic. Very very interesting to listen.
NW: You’ve had to —
AW: More way out than that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Norman Edward Wilkins
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cathy Brearley
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWilkinsNE170922, PWilkinsNE1704
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:04:16 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Norman Wilkins was born in West Norwood. At the age of fourteen he joined the Air Training Corps and became a member of Brighton and Hove Air Cadets 176 Squadron. He then joined the University Air Squadron at Oxford, with fees being paid by the Royal Air Force. In 1942-1943 he was sent to Winnipeg for navigation training. At the end of the course he was nominated for the Pathfinder Training Unit at RAF Oakington. Norman did astro navigation on one occasion. He also did a course on the radar navigation system and was posted to RAF Finningley for about two years and a half. Norman flew in Lancasters and was also involved in Operation Manna. He then became president of the 7 Squadron Association which meets once or twice a year.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Sussex
England--Brighton
Canada
Manitoba--Winnipeg
Manitoba
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Steph Jackson
7 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Gee
Lancaster
Lincoln
Me 163
mid-air collision
navigator
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Pathfinders
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Oakington
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/704/11815/LBeethamMJ[Ser -DoB]v1.pdf
8f08975309682a9cca55096aaf343edb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Beetham, Michael
Sir Michael Beetham
M Beetham
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. The collection concerns Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Michael Beetham GCB, CBE, DFC, AFC, DL (1923 - 2015) and contains his five flying log books. He flew a tour of operations as a pilot with 50 Squadron. After the war he flew on the goodwill tour of the United States with 35 Squadron. He remained in the RAF and rose in rank until his retirement in the 1980s.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Sir Michael Beetham and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Beetham, MJ
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Michael Beetham's pilot's flying log book. One
Description
An account of the resource
Pilots flying log book one for Michael James Beetham, covering the period from 2 March 1942 to 17 November 1945. Detailing his flying training. Operations flown, instructor duties and post war squadron duties. He was stationed at RAF Perth, USAAC Lakeland, USAAC Gunter Field, USAAC Turner Field, RAF Desford, RAF Church Lawford, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Wigsley, RAF Skellingthorpe, RAF Lulsgate Bottom, RAF Syerston and RAF East Kirkby. Aircraft flown were, DH82a, Stearman, Vultee, Cessna AT17, Curtis AT9, Oxford, Anson, Wellington, Halifax, Lancaster and Lincoln. He flew a total of 30 night operations with 50 Squadron and one Operation Exodus and two Operation Dodge with 57 Squadron. Targets were, Dusseldorf, Berlin, Leipzig, Frankfurt, Stettin, Brunswick, Augsburg, Stuttgart, Marseilles, Essen, Nuremberg, Toulouse, Aachen, Juvisy, Paris, Schweinfurt, Bordeaux, Juvincourt and Bari. His pilot for his first 'second dickie' operation was Flight Lieutenant Bolton.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LBeethamMJ19230517v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
United States
Alabama--Montgomery
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Rutland
England--Somerset
England--Warwickshire
Florida--Lakeland
France--Aisne
France--Essonne
France--Marseille
France--Paris
France--Toulouse
Georgia--Albany
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Augsburg
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Braunschweig
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Schweinfurt
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Stuttgart
Italy--Bari
Scotland--Perth
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Poland
Florida
Alabama
Georgia
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Juvincourt-et-Damary
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1944-03-30
1944-03-31
1944-04-06
1944-04-18
1944-04-19
1945
1944-04-05
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
50 Squadron
57 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
bombing of the Juvisy, Noisy-le-Sec and Le Bourget railways (18/19 April 1944)
bombing of Toulouse (5/6 April 1944)
Halifax
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Oxford
pilot
RAF Church Lawford
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Desford
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Hunmanby Moor
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Morton Hall
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
Stearman
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/704/11895/LBeethamMJ[Ser -DoB]v2.pdf
e48b84bb1ab4b0ad11464c42bd3238d3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Beetham, Michael
Sir Michael Beetham
M Beetham
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. The collection concerns Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Michael Beetham GCB, CBE, DFC, AFC, DL (1923 - 2015) and contains his five flying log books. He flew a tour of operations as a pilot with 50 Squadron. After the war he flew on the goodwill tour of the United States with 35 Squadron. He remained in the RAF and rose in rank until his retirement in the 1980s.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Sir Michael Beetham and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Beetham, MJ
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Michael James Beetham’s pilots flying log book. Two
Description
An account of the resource
Pilots flying log book for Michael James Beetham, covering the period from 5 December 1945 to 18 July 1952. Detailing his post war squadron duties, staff duties, flying training and instructor duties and flew the victory day fly past and good will tour of the United States. He was stationed at RAF Graveley, RAF Hemswell, RAF Finningley, RAF Eastleigh, RAF Middleton St. George, RAF Bassingbourn and RAF Andover. Aircraft flown were, Lancaster, Oxford, Lincoln, C-47, B-17, Expiditor, Anson, Wellington, Devon, Valetta, Meteor, Canberra and Proctor. Flying duties were with 35 Squadron, 82 Squadron, Headquarters Bomber Command and Staff College.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LBeethamMJ19230517v2
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
1946
1947
1948
1949
1950
1951
1952
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
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Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor
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Mike Connock
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Ghana
Great Britain
Kenya
Nigeria
South Africa
Tanzania
United States
Zambia
California--Mather Air Force Base
Colorado--Colorado Springs
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Durham (County)
England--Hampshire
England--Huntingdonshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Ghana--Accra
Ghana--Takoradi
Kenya--Nairobi
Michigan
New York (State)
New York (State)--Mitchel Field
Newfoundland and Labrador--Gander
Ohio
Ontario--Ottawa
Ontario--Trenton
South Africa--Pretoria
Tanzania--Dar es Salaam
Tanzania--Lindi
Tanzania--Mbeya
Tanzania--Tabora
Texas
Washington (D.C.)
Zambia--Ndola
California
Colorado
Ontario
Newfoundland and Labrador
35 Squadron
82 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
B-17
C-47
Goodwill tour of the United States (1946)
Lancaster
Lincoln
Meteor
Oxford
pilot
Proctor
RAF Andover
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Eastleigh
RAF Finningley
RAF Graveley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Middleton St George
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/675/11897/LArrowsmithHL571013v1.2.pdf
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Arrowsmith, Les
H L Arrowsmith
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant Les Arrowsmith (b.1920) who flew operations as a bomb aimer with 576 Squadron from RAF Elsham Wolds until his Lancaster was shot down 21/22 May 1944 and he became a prisoner of war. The collection includes his prisoner of war diary, his log book, photographs, a scrap book and correspondence. After the war he continued to serve with the RAF and remustered to become a navigator.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Mike Arrowsmith and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-22
Identifier
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Arrowsmith, HL
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Les Arrowsmith’s flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners and flight engineers
Description
An account of the resource
Warrant Officer Les Arrowsmith’s flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners and flight engineers, from 28 January 1946 to 18 July 1950. Mainly records his training and various postings in the Far East as navigator within Transport Command, with references to Singapore (Changi), Kuala Lumpur, Kuching, Saigon, Hong Kong, and Jakarta. Described as “A very reliable and conscientious navigator”, one of his assessments refers to him as an “Ex POW”, and a note on the first page says “1st Log Book lost by RAF 22/5/44”. His final posting was with Bomber Command, 138 squadron at RAF Wyton. Aircraft flown were Oxford, York, Auster, Anson, Harvard, C-47 and Lincoln.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
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LArrowsmithHL571013v1
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
China--Hong Kong
Indonesia--Jakarta
Malaysia--Kuala Lumpur
Malaysia--Kuching (Sarawak)
Singapore
Vietnam--Ho Chi Minh City
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
China
Indonesia
Malaysia
Vietnam
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1946
1947
1948
1949
1950
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Leitch
138 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
C-47
Harvard
Lincoln
navigator
Oxford
prisoner of war
RAF Bishops Court
RAF Bramcote
RAF Netheravon
RAF Snaith
RAF Wymeswold
RAF Wyton
training
York
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Donaldson, David
David Donaldson
D Donaldson
Description
An account of the resource
309 Items and a sub-collection of 51 items. Concerns Royal Air Force career of Wing Commander David Donaldson DSO and bar, DFC. A pilot, he joined the Royal Air Force Reserve in 1934. Mobilized in 1939. he undertook tours on 149, 57 and 156 and 192 Squadrons. He was photographed by Cecil Beaton at RAF Mildenhall in 1941. Collection contains a large number of letters to and from family members, friends as well as Royal Air Force personnel. Also included are personal and service documents, and his logbooks. In addition, there are photographs of family, service personnel and aircraft. After the war he became a solicitor. The collection also contains an oral history interview with Frances Grundy, his daughter.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Anna Frances Grundy and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
2022-10-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Donaldson, D
Grundy, AF
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] Brief History of 192 Squadron [/underlined]
No. 192 Squadron was always part of the 'Y' Service and, as such, its primary object was a complete and detailed analysis from the air of the enemy signals organisation. The first step in this direction was made by the Blind Approach Training Development Unit who, in addition to their Blind Approach Training, started to fly on the German Ruffian and Knickebein beams. At a later date, a special unit, the Wireless Investigation Development Unit was formed to take over special signals investigation leaving B.A.T.D.U. to concentrate solely on their Blind Approach Training.
The airborne investigation of enemy signals was then taken over by 'B' Flight of 109 Squadron, which later became 1474 Flight, being formed at Gransden Lodge on the 10th July 1942, and this in turn, became 192 Squadron on 4th January, 1943. With the formation of 192 Squadron, the aircraft establishment was 8+3 Wellington Mk.X, 1+1 Halifax Mk.II and 3+0 Mosquito Mk.IV. 192 Squadron had hardly been formed when it was called upon to undertake a very important and detailed investigation. The whole of the Western Mediterranean had to be surveyed in order to ascertain what enemy radar coverage existed in that area, and with this object in view, one Wellington Mk.X was detached to North Africa on the 18th February 1943. As the undertaking proved to be far too big for one aircraft, this aircraft returned to base on the 14th April, 1943. They made a complete survey of the Western Mediterranean bringing many important features to light and returned to base on the 25th August 1943.
On the 1st February 1944, 1473 Flight, who up to this time had been under the control of O.C. 80 Wing, Radlett, and whose activities in the main, consisted of signals investigation over friendly territiry [sic], were merged into 192 Squadron and the aircraft establishment was amended to 6+1 Wellington Mk.X, 8+2 Halifax Mk.V, 6+1 Mosquito Mk.IV and 1+0 Anson. The Halifax Mk.V on this establishment being changed to Halifax Mk.III on the 20th February 1944. The Squadron was then a three Flight Squadron, but on the 25th November 1944 the Wellington Mk.X were replaced by Halifax Mk.III and on the 27th December 1944 the Squadron Establishment was 17+0 Halifax Mk.III, 7+0 Mosquito Mk.IV and 1+0 Anson.
[page break]
It was the Squadron's responsibility to undertake rgular [sic] coastal flights in Europe, covering the whole of the coastal areas in the European theatre of operations. The West Coast of France, Belgium, Denmark and Norway were patrolled with the object of ascertaining that we always had full information regarding the density and frequency coverage of the enemy coastal radar organisation. At the same time a vigilant watch had to be maintained to see that new frequencies were not brought into operation undetected. The importance of this work cannot be overestimated and it is felt that no history of the Squadron would be complete without mentioning the survey of the Norwegian Coast which was carried out in September 1944. This survey was undertaken on orders received from Air Ministry and the object was to try and find some break in the enemy coastal radar coverage between the latitudes of 62° and 67° North which would enable an attacking force to get in undetected. As a result of the survey carried out by a detachment of this Squadron at Lossiemouth, it was found that such a break did exist, and if our aircraft crossed the Norwegian Coast north of 64°50' there was little or no chance of them being plotted. As a result of this information several successful attacks were made on enemy capital ships, the Command losses being slight.
In August 1944, 192 Squadron were the first to find and establish the identity of an enemy transmission 36.2 Mc/s which had a P.R.F. of 25. This was established as an enemy long range radar, and by means of a Fuge 16 homing loop, which was fitted to one of our Wellington aircraft, homing runs were made, and its site on the coast of N.W. Holland established.
The enemy inland radar coverage and communication system also had to be monitored and to enable this to be undertaken, it became the policy of his Squadron to route heavy aircraft in with Bomber Command formations accompanying them to he[sic] trget[sic]. In addition to keeping a constant watch on the enemy ground radar organisation, it became part of the Squadron's duty to investigate enemy airborne transmissions, but due to the lack of D/P facilities considerable difficulties were experienced. The enemy A.I. transmissions
/was
[page break]
was known at the time but its general characteristics concerning radio frequency and pulse recurrence frequency were not. In all eighteen flights were made, the last being a more or less suicidal but successful attempt. A Wellington IC fitted with special investigation equipment was routed over enemy occupied territory in the hope that a Hun night fighter would intercept and attack. The enemy was most obliging and although he carried out ten or twelve attacks on the aircraft, doing considerable damage, wounding the special operator on three occasions and damaging the special investigation equipment, all the required information was obtained and sent back to base in code by the wireless operator. The after effects of this flight were far reaching in as much as it enabled countermeasure action to be taken from the jamming point of view and permitted the formation of the Serrate Squadron, which met with considerable success.
If all the various types of investigation undertaken by the Squadron were dealt with in detail, considerable space would be occupied and in view of this only details concerning the types of German radar which were investigated are given herewith. Freya types, including Hoarding and Chimney, both inland and coastal; Wuerzbergs, inland and coastal; Coast Watchers, mainly coastal but on several occasions inland flights were made to ascertain if the enemy was using the coastwatchers inland for aircraft reporting. Enemy A.I. (Fuge 202), SN2, Germonica (Fuge 216, 217 and 218). Radio altimeter, Fuge 201, I.F.F. Fuge 25 and 25A Jadgeschloss, Windjammers, Bernhard, Benito, Sonne, Schwanbuoy, Pulse Communication and also the Centimetre bands. As was expected some of these flights entailed considerable flying hours before any positive information was obtained and in certain instances, (such as investigation undertaken in the Bay of Biscay searching for submarine radar), well over 1,000 flying hours were expended on this search without any positive results.
With the advent of V.1. and V.2., 192 Squadron were prepared in as much as Mosquito, Halifax and Wellington aircraft were suitably equipped and kept at stand-by for immediate take-off in order to investigate the responsibility of some form of radio control being used with V.1. and V.2.
[page break]
The investigation for signals in connection with V.2., assistance was given by the 8th. U.S.A.A.F. Who had already detached a flight of P.38's to Foulsham, arriving on the 24th August 1944 under the command of Capt. Kasch. These investigations were continued until the end of February 1945, the Americans finally leaving the Squadron on the 6th March, 1945.
D. Day saw 192 Squadron in a new operational role. A constant patrol was maintained between Cap Gris Nez/Cherbourg to see if the enemy was using the Centimetre band for radar, all the known enemy radars being efficiently jammed. No positive results were obtained but the Centimetre investigations were continued right up to the last days of the Squadron and many interesting signals received. Although no definite information was obtained that the enemy had, at the time of the investigation, Centimetre radar equipment, it was established that the enemy was using Centimetre radar.
Sound recorders, both on film and on wire have been used extensively on investigations and have proved invaluable. The Squadron has always played an important part in the interception of V.H.F. R/T and W/T traffic, both air-to-air, and air-to-ground, and numerous valuable sound recordings of this traffic were made. Its value was doubly increased from D.Day onwards due to the old question of optical range and such transmissions being outside the normal interception of a ground Listening Sation [sic].
A sound recorder also played a very important part in establishing the use by the enemy of what is known as the Bernhardine Gerate, this being a somewhat complicated system, ground to air, involving the transmission of Hellschreiber traffic. When one considers that this traffic was only operative for approximately ten seconds a minute and the nature of the traffic, without a sound recordr [sic] this particular type of of transmission could not have ben [sic] broken down.
Sound recordings were also of considerable assistance in assessing the efficiency of our R.C.M. As sound recordings were made of our countermeasures with the actual signal when it was being jammed in the background. These recordings could, therefore, be examined at leisure and the efficiency of the jammers assessed accordingly.
[page break]
Cameras also played an important part in signals investigation, such cameras as the Leica, Contax, Kodak Cine and Bell and Howell were used. The duration of certain enemy transmissions being so short, it was not always possible for a detailed analysis of a signal to be made by the special operator, but in many instances the duration of the signal did permit a photographic to be made, enabling further information to be obtained. Cine cameras played a very important part in establishing the polar diagrams of enemy radar transmiters [sic]. Some very good results being obtained on the Jadgschloss type of transmitter.
As opposed to the straightforward investigation of enemy radar, a considerable number of flights were made to analyse various types of jamming which were reported. Gee, Oboe, Monica, Serrate etc. and other flights were made to check the efficiency of our own radar countermeasures. It is considered of outstanding interest that it was as a result of detailed investigation by the Squadron of friendly and enemy signals both checking the density and signal strengths, that the present Loran frequency of 1.9 Mc/s was allocated.
On 12th. December 1944, 192 Squadron played its first operational role as an airborne jammer. On this date the first Mosquito aircraft of the Squadron fitted with two channels of Piperack flew operationally. In time, all the Mosquitoes were fitted with Piperack and a dual role was played by the aircraft, from the point of view that it was the general practice to carry out a signals investigation on the way to and from the targets, but using Piperack itself over the target.
The type of work undertaken by the Squadron necessitates a high standard of skill and efficiency on the part of the Special Operator. Prior to November, 1943 the training of special operators was undertaken by T.R.E. but after this date, all training of special operators was done on and by the Squadron. A detailed course was given to the special operators involving 2 - 3 weeks of ground lectures and at the termination of these lectures, an examination was given On passing the ground examination, additional air training was given to the candidate. Generally the special operator had to have an average of from 6 - 9 air training flights before becoming operational. It is also of interest to note that the requirements
[page break]
of 1431 Flight A.C.S.E.A., with regard to special operators was met by the Squadron.
Considerable work has to be done on aircraft for signals investigation, such work involving a 230 volt A.C. power supply in addition to the 230 volt D.C. and 1,000 volt A.C. cycle being supplied. Mountings had to be fitted into the aircraft to house the special investigation equipment and when it is considered that the equipment itself differs with the nature of the investigation, the installation had to be designed in such a way as to enable any type of receiving equipment to be put in at a minute's notice. The following aerials also had to be fitted to the aircraft: ¼ wave general search aerial, vertically polarised, ½ wave dipole vertically polarised and horizontally polarised on the port and starboard sides, a ¼ wave band cone aerial for 1 - 5,000 Mc/s general search and a special wide band capped cone aerial of Bagful aerial for general search for 200 - 1,000 Mc/s.
Self recording receivers have also been used by the Squadron. The first of these was the Goldmark and although the recordings made were of value, they were not comparable with those that were made using the Bagful receiver (a T.R.E. Product). The usefulness of the self-recording receivers is limited by the fact that they only enable the radio frequency and the density of signals in the frequency band being being swept, to be recorded. Other special recordind [sic] units such as the Blonde were in hand, by means of which full details concerning the radio frequency, pulse recurrence frequency, pulse width and general characteristics of a signal could be determined, but unfortunately, these did not come to hand in time to be used operationally.
Window dropping was also undertaken by the Squadron. The first Window flight being made on the 6th October, 1944, and as they are of interest, the operational flying hours and sorties for the years 1943, 1944 and 1945 are given herewith:-
/1943
[page break]
1943.............Operational hours …................3,143
1943.............Operational sorties.....................440
1944.............Operational hours ….................6,817
1944.............Operational sorties...................1,394
(four 1945.............Operational hours ….................3,121
months) 1945.............Operational sorties......................602
The Squadron badge was presented to the Squadron on 15th May 1945 by A.V.M. E.B.Addison, C.B., C.B.E., A.O.C. 100 Group and the Squadron disbanded on 22nd August 1945.
[page break]
[underlined]AIRCRAFT TYPES FLOWN[/underlined]
Jan 1943 – Nov 1944 Wellington Mk X Vickers
Jan 1943 – Feb 1944 Halifax Mk II Handley Page
Jan 1943 – Aug 1945 Mosquito Mk IV de Havilland
Feb 1944 – Feb 1944 Halifax Mk V Handley Page
Feb 1944 – Aug 1945 Halifax Mk III Hndley [sic] Page
Feb 1944 – Aug 1945 Anson Avro
Jul 1951 – Mar 1953 Lincoln B2 Avro
Jul 1951 – Jan 1958 Washington B1 Boeing
Mar 1953 – Jul 1958 Canberra B2 English Electric
Jan 1958 – Jul 1958 Comet C2 de Havilland
[underlined]LOCATIONS[/underlined]
04 Jan 1943 Gransden Lodge Squadron Formed
05 Apr 1943 Feltwell
25 Nov 1943 Foulsham
22 Aug 1945 Foulsham Squadron Disbanded
[page break]
[underlined]SQUADRON COMMANDERS of 192 SQUADRON[/underlined]
Wg Cdr C D V Willis DFC 4 January 1943
Wg Cdr E P M Fernbank DFC 12 March 1944
Wg Cdr D W Donaldson DSO DFC 13 June 1944
Sqn Ldr W A C Emmett 15 July 1951
Sqn Ldr A N Hoad AFC 18 January 1954
Wg Cdr W M Dixon DSO DFC 1 January 1956
Wg Cdr D S V Rake OBE AFC 7 July 1958
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
192 Squadron radio countermeasures operations
Description
An account of the resource
Covers coastal patrols to determine density and frequency coverage of enemy radar organisation, discovery of new enemy radar type and monitoring enemy overland radar and communications. Mentions use of specially equipped Wellington flown over enemy territory in hope of attack by night fighter to collect enemy airborne radar information. Search for possible radio use with V1 and V2, D Day operations, sound recording of enemy VHF W/T and R/T transmissions, use of cameras, modification of aircraft and use of window. Lists of hours flown, aircraft flown, locations and squadron commanders.
Format
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Eight page printed document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MGrundyAF[DoB]-150610-09
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
England--Cambridgeshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Frances Grundy
100 Group
192 Squadron
Anson
B-29
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Halifax Mk 5
Lincoln
Mosquito
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
P-38
radar
RAF Feltwell
RAF Foulsham
RAF Gamston
RAF Lossiemouth
Tirpitz
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/976/16154/LManningR52870v1.1.pdf
247348241574f6d9c13acee159d9d84f
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Observer’s and Air Gunner’s Log Book
Description
An account of the resource
The Observer’s and Air Gunner’s Log Book covering the period 15 June 1941 to the 16 August 1963. Manning qualified first as an Air Gunner on the 4 July 1941 and second as a flight engineer on the 1 September 1941. He was commissioned on the 4 July 1943 as a Pilot Officer and promoted to acting Flight Lieutenant in April 1944, and again to acting Squadron Leader in March 1946. He reverted to Flight Lieutenant in April 1947 but was made substantive Squadron Leader in April 1956 in the Engineering Branch. He retired 16 August 1963. There are very few entries relating to his time as a Gunner. Most entries are as Engineer.
He was stationed at RAF Stormy Down; RAF Middleton St George; RAF Linton-on-Ouse; RAF Leeming, RAF Aqir, RAF Fayid, RAF Marston Moor, RAF Snaith, RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Finingley, RAF Scampton, RAF Binbrook, RAF Henlow, RAF Seletar, RAF LLandow, RAF Swaton Morley, and RAF Medmenham. He flew in the following types manly as Engineer ; Arvo Tutor, Armstrong Whitworth Ensign, Handley Page Hannibal, Hawker Hart, Handley Page Heyford, Douglas DC 4 and 5, Handley Page Harrow, Handley Page Halifax, Miles Magister, Armstrong Whitworth Whitley, Avro Lancaster, Fairey Battle, Airspeed Oxford, de Havilland Mosquito, Avro Lincoln, Handley Page Hastings, Gloster Meteor, Avro Anson, Vickers Valletta, Vickers Wellington, Percival Prentice, Bristol Britannia and Handley Page Victor. He flew with 10 Sqaudron, 462 Squadron, 51 Squadron, and 614 Squadron. He was awarded the DFC. Pilots he flew with were Richards, Sobinski, Lewin, Turnbull, Hacking, Godfrey, Trip, Peterson, Lloyd, Bell, O’Driscoll, Allen, Declerk, Gribben, Gibsons, Wyatt, Clarke, Snow, Hardy, Haydon, McDonald, Murray, Jones, Dennis, Fisher, Connolly, Cheshire, Woolnough, Cat, McIntosh, Pope, Alcock, Smythe, Williams, Freeman, McKnight, Gillchrist, Moore, Faulkner, Carr, Espie, Brown, Price, Wiltshire, Spence, Symmons, Kirk, King, Burgess, Wilson, Pugh, Johnson, Reynolds, Roberts, Ringer, Minnis, Lowe, Everett, Renshaw-Dibb, Mathers, Sullings, Flower, Jarvis, Chopping, Widmer, Yates, Day, Spires, Huggins, Watts, Haycock, Owens, Liversidge, George , Banfield, Hunt, Porter, Goodman, Ayres, Shannon, Laytham, Lord, Rhys and Blundy,
War time operations were to Sharnhorst and Gneisenau, Cologne, St Nazaire, Kiel, Paris, Aysen Fjord, Terpitz, Trondheim, Hamburg, Mannheim, Essen, Osnabruck, Tobruk, Heraklion, Maleme, Lens, Colline Beaumont, Bourg-Leopold, Trappes, Mont-Fleury, Abbeville, Nucourt, Le Harve, Boulogne. Post war destinations were to RAF Netheravon, RAF Hemswell, RAF Scampton, RAF Lindholm, RAF Marnham, RAF St Eval, RAF Aldergrove, RAF Wyton, RAF Stradishall, RAF Binbrook, RAF Bagington, RAF Waddington, RAF Topcliffe, RAF Upwood, Kai Tak, Changi, RAF Pembrey, RAF Llandow, RAF Filton, and RAF Bruggen.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Manning, Reg
Reginald Manning
R Manning
Description
An account of the resource
Six items, concerning Pilot Officer Reg Manning DFC (567647 Royal air Force) including his flying log book and photographs. He served as an air gunner and flight engineer with 10 Squadron, 462 Squadron, 51 Squadron, and 614 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Manning.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Manning, R
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Reg Manning's observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
The Observer’s and Air Gunner’s Log Book covering the period 15 June 1941 to the 16 August 1963. Manning qualified first as an Air Gunner on the 4 July 1941 and second as a flight engineer on the 1 September 1941. He was commissioned on the 4 July 1943 as a Pilot Officer and promoted to acting Flight Lieutenant in April 1944, and again to acting Squadron Leader in March 1946. He reverted to Flight Lieutenant in April 1947 but was made substantive Squadron Leader in April 1956 in the Engineering Branch. He retired 16 August 1963. There are very few entries relating to his time as a Gunner. Most entries are as Engineer. He was stationed at RAF Stormy Down; RAF Middleton St George; RAF Linton-on-Ouse, RAF Leeming, RAF Aqir, RAF Fayid, RAF Marston Moor, RAF Snaith, RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Finningley, RAF Scampton, RAF Binbrook, RAF Henlow, RAF Seletar, RAF LLandow, RAF Swanton Morley, and RAF Medmenham. He flew in the following types manly as Engineer; Avro Tutor, Armstrong Whitworth Ensign, Handley Page Hannibal, Hawker Hart, Handley Page Heyford, Douglas DC 4 and 5, Handley Page Harrow, Handley Page Halifax, Miles Magister, Armstrong Whitworth Whitley, Avro Lancaster, Fairey Battle, Airspeed Oxford, de Havilland Mosquito, Avro Lincoln, Handley Page Hastings, Gloster Meteor, Avro Anson, Vickers Valletta, Vickers Wellington, Percival Prentice, Bristol Britannia and Handley Page Victor. He flew with 10 Squadron, 462 Squadron, 51 Squadron, and 614 Squadron. He was awarded the DFC. His pilots on operations were Warrant Officer Peterson, Flight sergeant Whyte, Warrant Officer O'Driscoll, Sergeant Declerk, Flight Sergeant Clarke, Sergeant Gibbons, Sergeant Wyatt, Flight Lieutenant Freeman, Flight Sergeant McKnight, Pilot Officer Gillchrist, Flight Sergeant Moore, Warrant Officer Skinner, Warrant Officer Faulkner, Flying Officer Carr and Flight Sergeant Espie. War time operations were to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, Cologne, St Nazaire, Kiel, Paris, Aasen Fjord, Tirpitz, Trondheim, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Mannheim, Essen, Osnabruck, Tobruk, Heraklion, Maleme, Lens, Colline Beaumont, Bourg-Leopold, Trappes, Mont Fleury, Abbeville, Nucourt, Le Havre, Boulogne, Gibraltar, Kasfereet. Post war destinations were to RAF Netheravon, RAF Hemswell, RAF Scampton, RAF Lindholme, RAF Marnham, RAF St Eval, RAF Aldergrove, RAF Wyton, RAF Stradishall, RAF Binbrook, RAF Baginton, RAF Waddington, RAF Topcliffe, RAF Upwood, Kai Tak, Changi, RAF Pembrey, RAF Llandow, RAF Filton, and RAF Bruggen.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
1949
1950
1951
1952
1953
1954
1955
1956
1957
1958
1959
1960
1961
1962
1963
1942-02-12
1942-02-14
1942-02-15
1942-02-16
1942-02-22
1942-02-23
1942-02-26
1942-02-27
1942-03-03
1942-03-04
1942-03-30
1942-03-31
1942-04-27
1942-04-28
1942-04-29
1942-05-03
1942-05-04
1942-05-06
1942-05-07
1942-05-19
1942-05-20
1942-05-30
1942-05-31
1942-06-01
1942-06-02
1942-06-03
1942-06-04
1942-06-05
1942-06-19
1942-06-20
1942-06-22
1942-07-11
1942-07-12
1942-07-18
1942-07-19
1942-07-20
1942-07-21
1942-07-24
1942-07-25
1942-09-03
1942-09-15
1942-09-16
1942-09-17
1942-09-18
1942-09-29
1942-09-30
1942-10-05
1942-10-06
1942-10-12
1942-10-13
1942-10-18
1942-10-19
1942-10-23
1942-10-24
1942-10-27
1942-10-29
1942-11-05
1942-11-07
1942-11-23
1943-07-24
1943-07-26
1943-07-27
1943-07-29
1943-08-01
1944-05-10
1944-05-11
1944-05-12
1944-05-27
1944-05-31
1944-06-01
1944-06-06
1944-06-11
1944-06-12
1944-06-23
1944-06-24
1944-07-15
1944-07-17
1944-09-11
1944-09-17
1945-06-19
1944-06-05
1944-07-18
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Egypt
Middle East--Palestine
Singapore
China--Hong Kong
England--Yorkshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Rutland
England--Norfolk
England--Bedfordshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Suffolk
England--Warwickshire
Wales--Carmarthenshire
Belgium
Belgium--Leopoldsburg
Greece--Crete
Greece--Ērakleion
Libya
Libya--Tobruk
Norway
Norway--Trondheim
France
France--Saint-Nazaire
France--Paris
France--Lens
France--Colline-Beaumont
France--Soligny-la-Trappe
France--Abbeville
France--Nucourt
France--Le Havre
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Essen
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Stuttgart
Gibraltar
Norway--Aasen Fjord
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Northern Ireland
North Africa
France--Ver-Sur-Mer
Scotland--Shetland
China
Greece
Great Britain
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Durham (County)
Greece
Greece--Maleme
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LManningR52870v1
10 Squadron
1652 HCU
1668 HCU
462 Squadron
51 Squadron
614 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
air sea rescue
aircrew
Anson
Battle
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
Cook’s tour
Distinguished Flying Cross
flight engineer
Gneisenau
Halifax
Harrow
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lincoln
Magister
Me 110
Meteor
Mosquito
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oxford
promotion
RAF Aqir
RAF Binbrook
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Filton
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Henlow
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Honington
RAF Kasfereet
RAF Leeming
RAF Lindholme
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Marham
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Medmenham
RAF Middleton St George
RAF Pembrey
RAF Scampton
RAF Snaith
RAF St Eval
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Stradishall
RAF Swanton Morley
RAF Topcliffe
RAF Upwood
RAF Waddington
RAF Wyton
Scharnhorst
tactical support for Normandy troops
Tirpitz
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
Whitley