1
25
214
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2417/42595/MEvansD2-1593692-211115-14.1.jpg
3aa6b1817f0eda86481fcc5aa149344f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Evans, Donald
Description
An account of the resource
31 items. The collection concerns Warrant Officer Donald Evans (b. 1925, 1593692 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents, objects and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 106 and 83 Squadrons.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Michael Evans and catalogued by Barry Hunter,
Date
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2021-11-15
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Evans, D-2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pilot's and Flight Engineer's Notes - Lincoln
Description
An account of the resource
A book of notes used by flight engineers and pilots.
This item is available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.
Creator
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Air Council
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Service material
Format
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One book cover
Identifier
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MEvansD2-1593692-211115-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
aircrew
flight engineer
Lincoln
pilot
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/934/36536/MLovattP1821369-190903-75.2.pdf
51c3fbced3b1e3bd9c7237f2cb79c94a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lovatt, Peter
Dr Peter Lovatt
P Lovatt
Description
An account of the resource
117 items. An oral history interview with Peter Lovatt (b.1924, 1821369 Royal Air Force), his log book, documents, and photographs. The collection also contains two photograph albums. He flew 42 operations as an air gunner on 223 Squadron flying B-24s. <br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1338">Album One</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2135">Album Two</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Nina and Peter Lovatt and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-27
2019-09-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lovatt, P
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
A Reminiscence of the Flying Characteristics of Many Old Type Aircraft
Description
An account of the resource
A detailed analysis of very early aircraft and their flying characteristics.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Air Marshall Sir Ralph Sorley
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Felixstowe
England--Eastbourne (East Sussex)
England--Calshot
England--Bembridge
Atlantic Ocean--Spithead Channel
England--Cowes
England--Stroud
Scotland--Montrose
England--Sunbury
England--London
Monaco
Egypt--Cairo
Iraq--Baghdad
England--Felixstowe
England--Aldeburgh
Iraq
Middle East--Kurdistan
Middle East--Palestine
Jordan
Iran
Middle East--Euphrates River
Syria
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
Singapore
Australia
Borneo
China--Hong Kong
England--Kent
United States
New York (State)--New York
France--Paris
Nigeria
South Africa--Cape Town
Yugoslavia
Norway
Portugal
Spain
Denmark
Japan
Belgium
Argentina
Austria
Brazil
Canada
Chile
Greece
China
Lithuania
Estonia
England--Weybridge
Scotland--Island of Arran
England--Kingston upon Thames
France--Dunkerque
England--Hatfield (Hertfordshire)
Newfoundland and Labrador
New Brunswick
Maine
Maine--Presque Isle
Washington (D.C.)
Massachusetts--Boston
Pennsylvania--Philadelphia
Maryland--Baltimore
Washington (D.C.)--Anacostia
Tennessee--Nashville
Arkansas--Little Rock
Texas--Dallas
Texas--Fort Worth
Texas--Midland
Arizona--Tucson
California--Burbank (Los Angeles County)
California--Palm Springs
California--Los Angeles
California--Beverly Hills
California--San Diego
Arizona--Winslow
New Mexico--Albuquerque
Kansas--Wichita
Missouri--Saint Louis
Ohio--Dayton
New York (State)--Buffalo
Ontario--Toronto
Québec--Montréal
Newfoundland and Labrador--Gander
Netherlands--Eindhoven
Germany--Rheine
Germany--Osnabrück
India
Switzerland--Zurich
Lebanon--Beirut
Pakistan--Karachi
India--Kolkata
Singapore
Indonesia--Jakarta
Australia
Northern Territory--Darwin
New South Wales--Sydney
South Australia--Woomera
South Australia--Adelaide
Victoria--Melbourne
Sri Lanka--Colombo
Spain--Madrid
South Africa--Johannesburg
Kenya--Nairobi
Sudan--Khartoum
Greece--Athens
Italy--Rome
Zambia--Lusaka
Zambia--Ndola
Zambia--Mbala
Heathrow Airport (London, England)
Turkey--Istanbul
France--Nice
Utah--Salt Lake City
Italy--Genoa
Atlantic Ocean--Firth of Clyde
Italy
France
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Kansas
Maryland
Massachusetts
Missouri
New Mexico
New York (State)
Ohio
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
New South Wales
South Australia
Victoria
Northern Territory
Egypt
Sudan
North Africa
Ontario
Québec
Germany
Indonesia
Iraq
Kenya
Lebanon
Netherlands
South Africa
Switzerland
Pakistan
Sri Lanka
Turkey
Yemen (Republic)
Czech Republic
Slovakia
England--Gloucestershire
England--Hampshire
England--Herefordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
England--Surrey
England--Sussex
England--Great Yarmouth
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Navy
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Format
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82 typewritten sheets
Date
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1971-08-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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MLovattP1821369-190903-75
Conforms To
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Pending text-based transcription
aircrew
Anson
B-17
B-24
Battle
Blenheim
C-47
Chadwick, Roy (1893-1947)
Defiant
Dominie
Fw 190
ground crew
Halifax
Harvard
Hudson
Hurricane
Lancaster
Lincoln
Lysander
Magister
Manchester
Me 109
Mosquito
Oxford
Photographic Reconnaissance Unit
pilot
Proctor
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Eastchurch
RAF Hendon
RAF Henlow
RAF Martlesham Heath
RAF North Killingholme
RAF Pembrey
RAF Prestwick
RAF West Freugh
Spitfire
Stirling
Swordfish
Tiger Moth
training
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1375/23784/MEdgarAG172180-180704-01.1.pdf
36ae9e28a74e85f4be77156522931818
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Edgar, Alfred George
Edgar, A G
Description
An account of the resource
83 items. The collection concerns Pilot Officer Alfred George 'Allan' Edgar DFC (b. 1922, 172180 Royal Air Force) He flew operations as a pilot with 49 Squadron.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Pip Harrison and Sally Shawcross nee Edgar, and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-04
2019-10-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Edgar, AG
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DADS TRANSCIPT MEMORIES OF CREW AND MISSIONS 1944 TO 1945
RECORDED BY MIKE GARBETT AND BRIAN GOULDING IN 1980 AT A REUNION ON THE CREW HELD AT SUDBROOKE LINCOLN, AUTHORS OF SEVERAL BOOKS LANCASTER AT WAR (UNFORUNATELY SOME OF THE TAPE IS MISSING AND BITS MISSED OUT)
PHOTOS OF FATHER FLYING HIS LANCASTER INTO FISKERTON IS SHOWN IN THEIR BOOK LASCASTER AT WAR NO3.
WE CREWED UP AT 17 OUT AT SILVERSTONE AND IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY THE FIRST PERSON THAT I GRAVITATED TO WAS THE NAVIGATOR BOB BROOKS AND AUSTRAILIAN I THINK THE MAIN FACT WAS THAT I WAS LOOKING FOR WHAT I THOUGHT WAS A MATURE RELIABLE GOOD NAVIGATOR AND HE SOMEHOW GAVE ME THAT IMPRESSION, SO WE STARTED TALKING AND I REMEMBER OUT OF THIS THAT HE KNEW ALAN MILLARD THE BOMB AIMER SO WE THEN EVENTUALLY GRAVITATED TO HIM AND HE KNOWING BOB FELT IT WOULD BE BETTER TO JOIN US.
AND AFTERWARDS I DID FIND OUT FROM BOB IT WAS SORT OF FIRST HAND IMPRESSION HE RATHER LIKES THE LOOK OF ME, IT WAS ONE OF THOSE THINGS
I AM ALMOST CERTAIN THEN THAT THE NEXT PERSON THAT WE GRABBED, WAS THE WIRELESS OPERATOR AG ALF RIDPATH WHO WITH HIS FAIR SWEPT BACK LOOKED A LITTLE BIT OF A GAY LOTHARIO AND WE FELT IT WAS ANOTHER COMPLETE IDIOT THAT WOULD JOIN AN IDIOT TYPE MOB ANYWAY, AND WE SEEM TO GET ON QUITE WELL. THE NEXT ONE WAS DON HARWOOD THE REAR GUNNER WHO ALTHOUGH HE WAS YOUNG AS US SEEM TO HAVE AN OLD HEAD ON HIS SHOULDERS, A DEEP VOICE AND GAVE AN IMPRESSION OF RELIABILITY, I SOMETIMES WONDER IF THIS WAS EVER TRUE! AND THEN JOHN WATTERS WAS THE MID UPPER GUNNER A LAD FROM BELFAST WHO I AM ALMOST POSITIVE WAS MUCH YOUNGER THAN WHAT HE MAINTAINED HE REALLY WAS, TO THIS DAY I AM CONVINCED THAT HE WAS ONLY ABOUT 16/17 YRS AND HE CLAIMED TO BE MUCH OLDER 18/19 YRS, IT WAS A GREAT PITY REALLY THAT I SUBSEQUENTLY LEARNT AFTER THE WAR THAT HE HAD STEPPED UNDER A TUBE TRAIN ON NEWS YEARS EVE COMMITTING SUICIDE, I LEARNT THIS FROM DON HARWOOD THE REAR GUNNER.
ANYWAY AFTER COMPLETING OUT AT SILVERSTONE WE
[PAGE BREAK]
2
FINALLY ARRIVED AT 1661 CONVERSION UNIT AT WINTHORPE JUST OUTSIDE NEWARK AND TO BE HONEST I CAN’T REMEMBER MUCH ABOUT MY INSTRUCTOR AT ALL – ALL I CAN REMEMBER IS THE BLOODY STERLING!! NOW THE MOST INTERESTING THING WAS THAT ALAN MILLARD THE AUSTRALIAN BOMB AIMER WAS A FAILED PILOT WHO HAD GONE ONTO THE BOMB AIMERS COURSE. SO FROM THE VERY BEGINNING AS A CREW I DIRECTED IF ONE CAN ASSUME THE WORDS DIRECTED THAT EVERYBODY WOULD DOUBLE UP ON EVERYBODY ELSE IN CASE OF ANYTHING HAPPENING AND SO ALAN MILLARD WOULD TAKE OVER IF ANYTHING HAPPENED TO ME BECAUSE AS HE GOT AS NEAR TO GETTING HIS WINGS IT WAS QUITE POSSIBLE INFACT HIGHLY PROBABLE THAT HE COULD FLY THE AIRCRAFT BACK AND MAKE SOME REASONABLE ATTEMPT AT LANDING IT.
THE WIRELESS OPERATOR DOUBLED UP AS A GUNNER, THE NAVIGATOR BOB BROOKS DOUBLED UP AS A BOMB AIMER AS DID THE FLIGHT ENGINEER, AND IN MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY AS WELL, ALAN MILLARD THE BOMB AIMER ALSO PARTIALLY DOUBLED UP FOR THE WIRELESS OPERATOR. WE LEFT JOHNNIE WATTERS THE MID UPPER GUNNER TWIT ON HIS OWN AS WE FELT IT BETTER LEAVE HIM UPSTAIRS THAN DOUBLING UP FOR ANYBODY.
I CAN ALSO REMEMBER THE FACT THAT BOB BROOKS THE NAVIGATOR WAS A JUDO EXPERT AND INFACT IT WAS COMMON PRACTISE WITH OUR CREW TO EGG YOUNG WATTERS JOHN TO ATTACK BOB BROOKS WOULD THROW HIM AROUND THE CREW HUT UNTIL FINALLY THE YOUNG IDIOT IRISHMAN LEANT TO PACK IT IN FOR THE NIGHT, WHEN WE WOULD RESUME AGAIN THE NEXT NIGHT.
COMING BACK TO THE STIRLING I THINK THE MOST VIVID IMPRESSION FOR ME INITIALLY WAS TAXING. NOW WITHOUT AS DOUBT WAS PROBABLY THE MOST BARBARIC BASTARDISE BLOODY AIRCRAFT I HAVE EVER MET IN MY LIFE FOR TAXING. IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY THERE A HUGE YELLOW BRAKE AND YOU OPERATED THE FOUR THROTTLES AND PULLED THIS MASSIVE GREAT LORRY BRAKE BACKWARDS AND FORWARDS SWINGING THE RUDDERS AROUND WHILE THIS, I CAN ONLY DESCRIBE IT AS A TYRANNOSAURUS REX OF A DINOSAUR PROWLED RATHER THAN ROLLED ALL OVER THE PLACE, IN ADDITION THE FLIGHT ENGINEER SAT ON THE MIDDLE OF THE AIRCRAFT IN WHAT WAS LIKE A SUBMARINE WITH ALL HIS FOURTEEN AND IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY ONCE AGAIN THE FUEL TANKS FOR CROSS FEEDING AND OTHER PURPOSES AND IN ADDITION IT DIDN’T MATTER WHAT ANYBODY DID THIS COW OF AN AIRCRAFT NEVER REACHED ITS CEILING EVER.
LANDING AT WINTHORPE WITH THE RUNWAY THAT RAN PARALLEL WITH THE MAIN NEWARK/LINCOLN ROAD ONCE AGAIN THIS BLOODY HANDBRAKE WAS A DISADVANTAGE RATHER THAN AN ADVANTAGE AS I CAN ONLY SAY FROM THINKING DEEPLY ABOUT IT WHOEVER
[PAGE BREAK]
3
DESIGNED THE BLOODY STERLING SHOULD HAVE BEEN MENTALLY EXAMINED.
ANOTHER THING ABOUT STERLINGS WAS CORRING THIS WAS WHERE, I AM ALMOST SURE ITS AS IF THE OIL TEMPERATURE WENT DOWN THAT YOU DROPPED THE UNDERCARRIAGE OPENED UP FULL THROTTLES WITH PART FLAP AND STAGGERED ALONG WITH WHAT CAN ONLY BE TERMED AS FOUR BLOODY GREAT BIG BULLSEYES FOR THE ENGINES WHICH OF COURSE MEANT FROM AN OPERATIONAL POINT OF VIEW THAT THEY WERE SITTING DUCKS FOR ANYBODY, AND IT WAS 460 OR 490 TOW TURNS ON THE WHEELS TO GET THE UNDERCARRIAGE DOWN IF YOU COULD NOT LOWER IT NORMALLY BECAUSE I REMEMBER THAT HAPPENING TO US ONCE.
IT WAS AT WINTHORPE AS WELL THAT WE HAD TO GET RID OF OUR FIRST ENGINEER BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY IT WAS TAKE OFF WHEELS UP “BREAKFAST UP” AND THERE WAS JUST NO WAY HE WAS GOING TO MAKE IT.
WE THEN TOOK ON ANOTHER ENGINEER CALLED GEORGE BEDFORD ON WHO OF COURSE FLEW WITH ME DURING MY FIRST TOUR AND GEORGE BEDFORD THE 2ND FLIGHT ENGINEER AS A VERY PROSAIC LAD AND INDEED HE BELIEVED IMPLICITLY THAT HIS JOB AS A FLIGHT ENGINEER WAS TO MAKE CERTAIN THAT WHATEVER AIRCRAFT WE WERE FLYING WAS ABSOLUTELY IN TIP TOP CONDITION – BECAUSE I CAN REMEMBER COMING BACK FROM A TRIP AND I THOUGHT FOR ONCE I AM GOING TO LIGHT UP A CIGARETTE AND HAVE A SMOKE AS WE WERE FLYING BACK ACROSS THE NORTH SEA AND I DISTINCTLY REMEMBER HIM GOING BANANAS OVER ME SMOKING A CIGARETTE.
AFTER A SHORT PERIOD OF ABOUT 14 HRS OF WHICH 7 HRS DAYLIGHT AND 7HRS NIGHT AT LANC FINISHING SCHOOL AT SYSERTON I THEN ARRIVED AT 49 SQUADRON FISKERTON
WHERE FOR MY SINS I WAS GIVEN “A” APPLE TO FLY I CAN REMEMBER THE FIRST TRIP WHICH WAS A 2ND DICKIE TRIP WHICH WAS WITH RUSS EVANS AND THAT WAS TO DANZIG BAY GIDENER, KONISBERG AREA WHICH WAS A 9HRS 15MIN TRIP, I THINK THAT ALL I CAN REMEMBER ABOUT THIS WAS THE FACT THAT IT SEEMED COMPLETELY IDIOTIC TO ME THAT A PILOT SHOULD GO ON A TRIP RISK GETTING SHOT DOWN WITH ANOTHER PILOT AND CREW, WHEREUPON HIS CREW WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK ALL OVER IT AGAIN WITH ANOTHER PILOT! THE THING WAS TO STAND BEHIND THE PILOT AND FLIGHT ENGINEER AND OBSERVE “WHAT I DO NOT KNOW” I SUPPOSE THE IDEA WAS THAT YOU WENT WITH A RELATIVELY EXPERIENCED CREW AND AS IT WERE SHUCK DOWN WITH THEM AND GOT AN IDEA OR IMPRESSION OF WHAT THE WHOLE CAPER WAS ABOUT.
[PAGE BREAK]
4
BUT ALSO AS I SAY I TEND TO THINK THAT BECAUSE YOU AND YOUR CREW WERE DIFFERENT WHATEVER SHAPE OR FORM THERE WAS GOING TO BE A DIFFERENT REACTION ANYWAY BECAUSE YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE TEACHING YOUR CREW ON YOUR VERY FIRST TRIP WHEN YOU HAVE ONLY DONE ONE YOURSELF! WHICH HAD NOT GIVE YOU MUCH EXPERIENCE ANYWAY. AND INFACT RUSS EVANS IS STILL RUNNING AROUND
HE PROBABLY THINKS OF THIS IDIOT, WHO AFTERWARDS WE GREW VERY FRIENDLY TOGETHER.
MY NEXT TRIP WAS ONE WITH MY OWN CREW TO TORS MARSHALLING YARD AT 7,000 FEET AND I THINK THIS WILL ALWAYS LIVE IN MY MEMORY AS FRANKLY IT STARTED OUT AS A COMPLETE SHAMBLES BUT IT HELPED THE CREW INTO A FIGHTING UNIT.
WE STARTED UP AND TAXIED ROUND TOWARDS TAKEOFF AND I THINK I WAS ABOUT 3RD 4TH OR 5TH INLINE COMING UP THE RUNWAY AND ALAN MILLARD THE BOMB AIMER A TYPICALLY AUSTRALIAN IF I MY [SIC] USE THE WORD WAS IN THE BOMB AIMER COMPARTMENT AND PISSING ABOUT AS USUALLY WHEN SUDDENLY IN A TYPICALLY AUSTRALIAN TWANG OVER THE INTERCOM CAME “ I HAVE PULLED MY BLOODY CHUTE AND IT HAS BELLOWED OUT” I IMMEDIATELY SAID “ WELL THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN TURN OFF HERE AND I CAN’T SEE US TURNING ROUND HERE AND TAXING DOWN THE END TO GET ANOTHER CHUTE FOR YOU SO WE SHALL HAVE TO GO AS IS AND I WOULD SUGGEST TO YOU THAT IF WE HAVE TO BAIL OUT YOU HOLD YOUR CHUTE UP TO YOUR CHEST AND WHEN YOU GET CLEAR OF THE AIRCRAFT RELEASE IT BECAUSE ITS ALREADY OPENED ANYWAY” UPON WHICH IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY HE REPLIED “THAT HE HADN’T COME 12,000 ------ -----!! FOR THIS SORT OF CAPER!! IT JUST SO HAPPENED THAT THE VERY FIRST TRIP I WAS USING A OBSERVE TYPE CHUTE SO IN A FLASH YOU WOULDN’T CALL IT INSPIRATION MORE DESPERATION I SAID ALRIGHT YOU BETTER TAKE MY CHUTE THEN, INCASE ANYTHING HAPPENS, UPON WHICH HE SAID THANKS VERY MUCH SKIP AND PULLED MY CHUTE DOWN INTO THE BOMB AIMERS COMPARTMENT, AND BY THAT TIME I WAS ON THE RUNWAY AND BEGINNING TO TAKE OFF AND IT WAS PROVABLY OR COLLOQUIAL ‘NOT UNTIL AIRBORNE THAT I SHIT A BRICK!! SO OF COURSE THE TRIP COMMENCED WITH ME WITHOUT A CHUTE AND HE THE GREAT ALAN MILLARD WITH TWO, ONE WHICH WAS OPENED WHICH HE HAD STUFFED INTO A CORNER OF THE BOMB AIMERS COMPARTMENT AND AFTERWARDS WHEN WE RETURNED HOME THE REST OF THE CREW SAID SOME HOW OR OTHER THEY ALL FELT THAT THEY MUST NOT LET ME DOWN BECAUSE THERE I WAS FLYING WITHOUT A CHUTE WHEN EVERYBODY ELSE WAS OK AND NO WAY WERE THEY GOING TO LET THE SKIPPER DOWN. SO HAVING SET OFF AS IT WERE AT A SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE AND THINGS OF WAFTING MY WAY GENERALLY DOWN THROUGH THE AIR SHOULD WE BE SHOT UP ON NOTHING.
[PAGE BREAK]
5
WE GET TOWARDS THE TARGET AND STARTED THE RUN IN, DURING OUR TRAINING IT HAD BEEN EMPHASISED WE WERE NOT GOING OVER THE OTHER SIDE TO CHUCK OR THROW BOMBS AROUND AND THAT BASICALLY YOU SHOULD PUT THEM DOWN IN THE RIGHT SPOT SO WHEN WE CAME UP TO THE TARGET AND ALAN WAS SAYING “ STEADY RIGHT, STEADY OH I HAVE MISSED IT GO ROUND AGAIN” I LIKE THE IDIOT I WAS WENT ROUND AGAIN. NOT THINKING GET RID OF THE BLOODY THINGS. SO OF COURSE I WENT ROUND AGAIN AND RAN IN AND THIS TIME WE PUT THEM DOWN AND IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY IT WAS A AIMING POINT. IT WAS NOT TILL WE GOT BACK THAT WE REALISED THAT UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS CREWS DIDN’T NORMALLY DO THIS SORT OF THING. SO REALLY OF WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A DISASTER TURNED OUT TO BE A EXCELLENT THINKS FROM THE CREWS POINT OF VIEW BECAUSE WE BECAME WEILLED AS A FIGHTING UNIT. IT ALSO BECAME APPARENT ON THIS TRIP BECAUSE WE REALISED EARLIER ON THERE WERE THREE ALANS OR ALS IN THE CREW THAT WAS THE BOMB AIMER, WIRELESS OP AND MYSELF, SO THE REAR GUNNER AND MID UPPER GUNNER WOULD CALL ME SKIP AND THE REST OF THE CREW WOULD CALL ME PILOT, THE IDEA BEING THAT IF SOMEBODY CALLED ME SKIP I STARTED WEAVING STRAIGHT AWAY ON THE GROUNDS THAT A GUNNER WAS COMING UP ON THE INTERCOM.
I THINK THE MAIN THING ABOUT MAILLY LE COMP WAS THE ENORMOUS COCKUP OF THIS OPERATION IN WHICH 1 GROUP CAME WITH US ON THE TRIP BECAUSE OF THE SHAMBLES AT THE TARGET INCLUDING VIRTUALLY ALL THE BLINDED ILLUMINATORS BEING KNOCKED OFF THERE WERE “T.I.S” PUT DOWN IN TWO DIFFERENT PLACES ONE FOR 1 GROUP AND ONE FOR US AWAY FROM THE TARGET UPON WHICH EVERYBODY WAS TO CIRCLE THEIR RESPECTIVE “T.I” BY THIS TIME I HAD LEARNT ENOUGH NOT TO GO NEAR ANY “T.I”. WE WERE A LITTLE AWAY FROM OUR ONE QUIETLY CIRCLING IF YOU CAN POINT THAT OUT, WE KNOW THAT 1 GROUP IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY WERE CIRCLING A YELLOW “T.I” AS IF THEY WERE ON A RACE TRACK WITH A RESULT THAT THE FIGHTER BOYS WERE HAVING A FIELD DAY WITH THAT LOT
COS WHEN THE TIME CAME FOR US TO COME IN I CAN REMEMBER TWO INCIDENTS, ONE WITH OUR RUN IN WITH THE BOMB DOORS OPEN A LANC WENT PAST US LIKE A BAT OUT HELL WITH HIS BOMB DOORS OPEN AND THEN A FOKWOLF 190 WENT OVER THE TOP OF OUR COCKPIT BECAUSE THE REAR GUNNER HAD CALLED UP “FIGHTER” AND OF COURSE I WAS ON THE BOMBING RUN AND HE COULDN’T HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 20 OR 30FT OFF THE TOP IF US WHERE HE WAS GOING FOR THE LANC THAT HAS JUST PASSED US AND HE FIRED HOT THIS LANC AND KNOCKED IT OFF “IT JUST BLEW UP” ITS RATHER IRONIC AS WELL BECAUSE DURING THIS TRIP WE HAD THREE COMBATS AS WELL IT WAS A PRETTY HAIRY DO. THERE WAS SO MANY FIGHTERS AROUND US IT WAS TO BE
[PAGE BREAK]
6
UNBELIEVABLE, THEIR DAY FIGHTERS WERE UP AS WELL AS IT WAS SUCH A BRIGHT MOONLIGHT NIGHT.
IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY THAT THIS TRIP WAS ALSO WHERE WE SPOTTED A WHITEL HINEKELL111 AND MY REAR GUNNER SAID LETS GO DOWN AND KNOCK IT OFF AND I SAID WAIT A MINUTE WHEN SUDDENLY IT TURNED TOWARDS AND WE WERE ATTACKED BY TWO FIGHTERS THAT WERE WITH IT, THEY WERE WORKING I AM ALMOST CERTAIN IN CONJUNCTION WITH THIS HINEKELL, SO THAT AS ONE FIGHTER CAME IN AND YOU CORKSCREWED INTO HIM THE OTHER FIGHTER CAME IN AND YOU CORKSCREWED INTO HIM WITH OTHER FIGHTER WOULD THEN BE ON THE OUTSIDE TO NAIL YOU WHICH OF COURSE WOULD FORCE YOU TOWTRDS THE HINEKELL WHICH ALSO WOULD LET FLY AT YOU SO INFACT IN REALITY YOU WERE BEING ATTACKED BY ALL THREE. I DO’NT[SIC] KNOW PERHAPS HE WAS A TRAINEE AIRCRAFT OR WHATEVER IT WAS WE SEEM TO THINK IT WAS A BLOODY GOOD PLOY, BECAUSE WE MENTIONED IT WHEN WE GOT BACK FROM THE TRIP THAT IT SEEMED LIKE A NEW SYSTEM OPERATING BY THEM. ALL WE KNEW THAT WE WERE ATTACKED BY TWO FIGHTERS WHICH APPARENTLY WERE WORKING IN CONJUNCTON WITH IT.
THE ONLY THING I CAN REMEMBER ABOUT THE NEXT TRIP TO SALSBREE ARSENAL WAS THAT ONE WE WERE HIT BY LIGHT FLAK WHICH NECESSITATED US HAVING TO CRASH LAND AT WITTERING THE OTHER THING WAS WE SPOTTED A TRAIN WITH WHITE STEAM COMING UP FROM IT SO WE ATTACKED IT RACED UP AND DOWN IT WITH THE GUNNERS FIRING AT THE TRAIN. IT SEEMS IRONIC TO ME THAT ALL I CAN REMEMBER IS NOT SO MUCH LANDING AT WITTERING ALTHOUGH I DO KNOW NOT HAVING ANY BRAKES OR FLAPS JUST SHOOTING UP THIS TRAIN WHICH WE THOUGHT WAS HILARIOUS EPISODE NOT REALISING OF COURSE THAT WE COULD OF EASILY BEEN BROUGHT DOWN EITHER BY GUNS ON THE TRAIN OR BY A FIGTER FOR UST GOING DOWN AND LARKING ABOUT I MEAN AFTER ALL WHY SHOULD FIGHTERS JUST ATTACK TRAINS WHY CANT LANCASTERS!!
AFTER THE NEXT TRIP IN WHICH WE HAD THREE COMBATS AGAIN WITH NO CLAIMS, CAME THE ONE TO BELGIUM
BOURG LEOPOLD WHICH I WON THE D.F.C.
I REMEMBER ON THIS THAT WE WERE ATTACKED WITHOUT EITHER OF MY GUNNERS SPOTTING THIS BOY HE JUST CAME IN FROM BELOW IN THE DARK AND THE NEXT THINGS THAT WE KNEW THAT HE WAS KNOCKING SIX OUT OF US BECAUSE LET ME RECAP – ONE CANNON SHELL KNOCKED OUT THE WIRELESS SET – WE HAD A FIRE IN THE BOMB BAY FROM THE ATTACK AND WHATS MORE THE FLYING CONTROL SYSTEM WAS HEAVILY DAMAGED BECAUSE SHE REARED LIKE A STRICKEN HORSE AND WENT OVER ONTO HER BACK THEN WE DROPPED ABOUT 12,000 FEET BEFORE I PULLED HER OUT
THE MAIN THING WAS THAT HE HAD GOT VIRTUALLY ALL HIS ATTACK IN BEFORE WE RIPPED UP AND WENT – AS WE HAD NOT DROPPED OUR
[PAGE BREAK]
7
BOMBS WE WERE IN A DIVE AND THE FIRE I OPENED THE BOMB DOORS AND SAID JETTISON THE BOMBS AND SEE IF WE CAN BLOW THE FIRE OUT THE NEXT MINUTE WELL REALLY IT WASN’T THE NEXT MINUITE BECAUSE WE MUST HAVE LOST 10,000-12,000 FEET
IN THE DIVE BY HINT OF PULLING AND MANOEUVRING THE LANC CAME OUT AND SHOT STRAIGHT UP AGAIN WITH A VIOLENT TENDANCY TO GO OVER ONTO ITS BACK – TRYING TO CONTROL HER (IT SEEMS RATHER FUNNY TO CALL A LANC A HER) TRYING TO CONTROL HER I HAD TO CROSS MY RIGHT LEG OVER MY LEFT LEG AND HOLD THE CONTROL COLUMN FORWARD WITH MY RIGHT KNEECAP THEN I HAD TO HOLD FULL LEFT AILERON DOWN AND THIS BROUGHT HER STRAIGHT AND LEVEL AND KEPT HER STRIAGHT AND LEVEL FOR A MOMENT. I CALLED THE BOMB AIMER UP AND THE FLIGHT ENINGEER TO GET INTO THE BOMB AIMERS COMPARTMENT AND I HAD WITH MY LEFT LEG FULL LEFT RUDDER THE IDEA BEING THAT ALAN MILLARD WOULD COME UP AND CONTROL THE THROTTLE TO ASSIST ME BECAUSE WE HAD TO HAVE THE ENGINES OUT OF SYNCHRONISATION IN ORDER TO KEEP HER STRAIGHT AND LEVEL AND GEORGE THE FLIGHT ENGINEER TIED A PIECE OF ROPE ROUND THE LEFT RUDDER AND WAS HOLDING ON TO IT TO HELP – IT WAS DURING THIS PART AS WELL ONE THINKS OF THE HILARIOUS EPISODE OF THE NAVIGATOR SAYING “ I HAVE BEEN HIT AND I WILL GIVE YOU A COURSE FOR HOME” WHICH HE DID OF COURSE THIS TOOK ME AGES TO TURN ONTO THE COURSE WITH THE LANC CRIPPLED AS IT WAS THEN HE FELT INSIDE HIS SHIRT UNDER HIS MAE WEST AND SUBSEQUENTELY SAID “CHRIST ITS SWEAT”
WE AND I SAY WE BECAUSE THERE WAS THREE OF US DOING THE JOB FLEW BACK TO ENGLAND AND WAS DIVERTED TO WOODBRIDGE WHERE I WAS TOLD TO BRING IT IN - SO AS I CAME ACROSS THE AIRFIELD FOR THE FIRST TIME I TOLD ALL MY CREW TO GO FORWARD AND BAIL OUT BECAUSE I DID NOT THINK I COULD BRING IT IN SAFELY THERE WAS THE PROVERBIAL RHUBARDS WE STAYING WITH YOU RATHER THAN BAILING OUT – SO THEY WENT INTO THE CRASH POSITIONS EXCEPT FOR ALAN MILLARD AND MYSELF AND I BROUGHT IT IN AND CRASHED LANDED WHERE AFTERWARDS IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A MASTERLY LANDING ACCORDING TO THE CITATION
ALL I CAN REMEMBER WAS THAT TWO THINGS
ONE WHERE THE CREW SUBSEQUENTLY COUNTED 200 HOLES IN THE AIRCRAFT FROM THE FIGHTERS ATTACK AND THE QUESTION OF THE LITTLE RUM BOTTLES FROM WHICH WE ALL GOT STONED OUT OF MINDS AFTER HAVING SURVIVED
BECAUSE ALSO HALF THE PORT RUDDER WAS MISSING AS WELL. BUT MOST OF THE ATTACK WAS CANNON SHELL BECAUSE APPROXIMATELY 2 WEEKS AFTER THIS EPISODE I FOUND OUT THAT I HAD BEEN AWARDED THE D.F.C.
WELL IF YOU MEAN A CELEBRATION ALL I KNOW IS THAT AT WOODBRIDGE WE GOT STONED OUT OF OUR MINDS WIPING ALL THE
[PAGE BREAK]
8
RUM BOTTLES PRESUMABLY THEY WERE MEANT FOR THE OTHER CREWS WHO CRASH LANDED THERE AS WELL ALTHOUGH WE SAT OUTSIDE THE HUT AND THEY COLLOQUIAL PUT, PISSED OUT OF OUR MINDS - YES THERE WAS A DO IN THE OFFICERS MESS BUT AS THE REST OF MY CREW WERE N.C.OS. WE HAD A LITTLE ONE ON OUR OWN BUT THE OTHER THING WAS THAT OF COURSE MY WIFE SHE WAS NOT THEN SEWED MY D.F.C. ONTO MY TUNIC.
ANOTHER TRIP WAS TO A PLACE CALLED MAISY I STILL CANT PRONOUNCE THE NAME OF IT IN FRENCH AND WE HAD BEEN ATTACKED WE COULD NOT OPEN THE BOMB DOORS AND WE HAD 13,000 LBS BOMBS ABOARD INCIDENTALLY THE WHOLE OF THE HYDRAULIC SYSTEM HAD GONE AS WELL – AFTERWARDS ON THE WAY HOME WE WERE DIVERTED TO SILVERSTONE OUR OLD OTU WHERE WE HAD FIRST CREWED UP ON WELLINGTONS COMING INTO LAND I HAD TO USE THE EMERGENCY AIR SYSYTEM TO BRING DOWN THE UNDERCARRIAGE AND FLAPS WHEN ALOAD OF REDS WERE FIRED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE RUNWAY AND I WAS TOLD TO OVERSHOOT THIS MEANT THAT I INSTICITIVELY PUSHED THE THROTTLE OPEN APPARENTLY THERE WAS STILL ANOTHER AIRCRAFT ON THE RUNWAY SOMEWHERE SO WE STARTED TO STAGGER ALONG ON AT ABOUT 200 FEET WITH A FULL BOMB LOAD UNDERCARRIDGE AND FLAPS DOWN WITHOUT ANY CHANCE OF GETTING THE UNDERCARRIDGE AND FLAPS UP AND I WAS DIVERTED TO TURWESTON – I CAN REMEMBER LETTING A FLOOD OF LANGUAGE COME OUT OVER THE RT (RADIO TRANSMITTOR) TO THE CONTROL TOWER AND PUTTING ME IN THIS STUPID POSITION – SO WE STAGGERED TOWARDS TURWESTON IN THIS CONDITION WHERE I BROUGHT IT STRAIGHT IN AFTER USING THE INTERCOM VITROUILIC TO ALL AND SUNDRY WITRH SOME WORKDS I WOULD THINK ARE ANOT MENTIONED IN BOOKS ANYMORE – WE LANDED ONTO THE RUNWAY AND RAN OFF ONTO THE GRASS AND I REMEMBERED A TRUCK COMING OUT TO US AND SAYING THEY THOUGHT WE HAD SOME PRACTISE BOMBS ABOARD AND WHEN THEY WERE TOLD IT WAS A FULL BOMB LOADS THEY ALL LEPT BACK INTO THE TRUCK AND DISPPEARED OVER THE HORIZON AT HIGH SPEED
SO WE LEFT THE LANC WERE IT WAS AND STARTED TO TRUDGE ACROSS THE AIRFIELD AND BY DAYLIGHT I REMEMEBER DISTINCTIVELY SOME TWIT AS A WING COMMANDER GIVING ME A ROASTING OVER MY USE OF FOUL LANGUAGE OVER THE INTERCOM – IT DID NOT APPEAR TO HIM THAT THERE HAS BEEN ANYTHING WRONG WITH OVERSHOOTING ME WITH A FULL BOMB LOAD WITH UNDERCARRIDGE AND FLAPS DOWN AND ONCE AGAIN I AM CERTAIN THAT AT THE SAME TIME A HALIFAX HAD OVERSHOT AND GONE INTO THE CLOTHING STORE AND BLOWN UP
THE THING ABOUT THIS INCIDENT IS THAT I WILL NOT RELATE ANYMORE BECAUSE IT WAS FAR BETTER TO DRAW A CURTAIN ACROSS
[PAGE BREAK]
9
WHEN ONE CONSIDERS THAT AT THESE TWO AIRFIELDS WERE EX OPERATIONAL PEOPLE WHO WERE NOW INSTRUCTING WHO APPEARED TO HAVE LOST ALL SEMBLANCE OF REALITY.
I THINK IT WOULD BE OF INTEREST TO RELATE ONE SMALL HUMOROUS INCIDENT AND THAT WAS THAT THERE WAS A LEADER NAVIGATION CHAP “PATCHEET” WHO ALWAYS SWORE BLIND THAT HE WOULD NEVER FLY WITH ME BECAUSE I WAS THE HAIRIEST ARSE PILOT ON THE SQUARDON
COS I WAS NOTORIOUS FOR LOW FLYING AND FOR GETTING BACK FIRST
WELL WE HAD BEEN UP TO THE OPS ROOM TO PREPARE FOR THE NIGHTS TRIP AND BOB BROOKS THE NAVIGATOR HAD A BICYCLE AND ON THE REAR WHEEL ON ONE SIDE WAS FREEWHEEL AND THE OTHER SIDE WAS FIXED – HE ALWAYS USED THE FREEWHEEL SIDE AND RIDING BACK FROM THE OPS ROOM WOULD GO ROUND THIS BEND AND PUT HIS FOOT DOWN AND DIRT TRACK LIKE A SPEEDWAY RIDER WHILE HE WAS IN THE OPS ROOM PREPARING THE NAVIGATION ASPECT WE TURNED THE REAR WHEEL ROUND SO THAT HE WAS ON FIXED AND SO HE RODE ALONG PUT HIS RIGHT FOOT DOWN AND HIS LEFT ONE OUT TO DO A SPEEDWAY RIDERS BROADSIDE AND QUITE NATURALLY CAME OFF HIS BIKE HEADLONG INTO THE HEDGE AND DITCH!!
IMMEDIATELY THE DOC WAS INFORMED AND HE WAS CARRIED TO THE SICK BAY WHERE HE WAS TOLD HE COULD NOT GO THAT NIGHT SO PATCHETT WAS NOMINATED TO COME WITH ME AND MY CREW AND DID NOT LIKE THIS ONE AT ALL!
AND THE FUND THING ABOUT THIS TRIP WAS THAT WE WERE ATTACKED TWICE – WITH PATCHETT SITTING THERE AND ALL OF SUDDEN OVER THE INTERCOM AFTER THE SECOND ATTACK HE SAID “I THINK IN FUTURE ANYTIME YOU WANT ME I WILL COME WITH YOU BECAUSE I DID NOT REALISE THAT YOU AND YOUR CREW WERE SO EFFICIENT OVER THE ENEMY TERRITORY”
I KNOW THAT IT BECAME A BYE WORD THAT I WAS INVARIABLY FIRST BACK THERE WAS VARIOUS NAMES APPLIED TO ME INCLUDING CHAMPION JOCKEY AND IT BECAME ALMOST A MATTER OF PROUD WITH ME
A. TO BE FIRST BACK AND
B. B. FOR ANOTHER CREW ON THE SQUADRON TO BEAR ME BACK WHICH FROM MY MEMORY NEVER DID HAPPEN
THE MAIN ASPECT APPEARED TO BE HOW WAS IT I GOT FIRST BACK AND YET MY FUEL LOGS ALWAYS SHOWED THAT WE DID QUITE WELL REGARDS TO FUEL CONSUMPTION
THE ANSWER WAS SIMPLE AND IT WAS KEPT A CLOSELY REGARDED SECRET WITH MY CREW
THAT WHEN WE WERE TOLD TO START DESCENDING AT CERTAIN POINT I STILL KEPT ALTITUDE AND WOULD COME DOWN IN VERY
[PAGE BREAK]
10
SIMPLE SMALL STEPS STILL WITH THE SAME REVS THE RESULT WAS THAT THE TIME EVERYBODY WAS AT CIRCUIT HEIGHT AND FLYING STRAIGHT AND LEVEL TOWARDS BASE I WAS STILL SOME 1000S FEET ABOVE THEM AND VIRTUALLY AT A SIMILAR POINT RELATIVE TO THE EARTHS SURFACE IN RELATION TO THEM THEN THROTTLING BACK AND PUTTING MY NOSE DOWN I WOULD REACH WHAT ONE MIGHT CALL FANTASTIC SPEEDS FOR THE LANCASTER AND RACE PASS EVERYBODY REACHING BASE FIRST AND NOBODY COULD UNDERSTAND HOW THIS KEPT HAPPENING TIME AND TIME AGAIN
ITS INTERESTING BECAUSE AFTER THE WAR WHEN I WENT BACK TO 83 SQUADRON ON LINCOLN’S I APPLIED THE SAME TECHNIQUE AND WAS INVARIABLE FIRST BACK AGAIN AND NOBODY COULD UNDERSTAND EITHER HOW IT HAPPENED.
ANOTHER THING I WAS NOTORIOUS FOR I SAY NOTORIOUS IN APOSTROPHES AND ITALICS WAS COMING INTO THE AIRFIELD INLINE WITH THE RUNWAY AT NOUGHT FEET CLEAN AS A WHISTLE AND A THIRD OR HALFWAY DOWN THE RUNWAY PULLING UP VERY VERY STEEPLY AND GOING INTO A VERY VERY TIGHT LEFT TURN AND WHEN I WAS IN AN ALMOST UPSIDE DOWN POSITION UNDER CARRIAGE AND FLAPS DOWN AND THROTTLE BACK TEMPORARILY STICK WELL BACK IN MY STOMACH AND A SPLIT ARSE TURN ONTO THE RUNWAY LIKE A SPITFIRE OR HURRICANE. I HAD A FEW ROCKETS OVER THIS BUT NOBODY SEEMED REALLY TO OBJECT TO THIS ONE !!
I THINK INFACT THIS COULD REALLY BE MENTIONED IN THE BOOK IF HE GOT ROUND TO IT
THERE WAS A DRIVER A WAAFF ON 49 SQUADRON AND ALL WE KNEW HER WAS SWISS ROLL SAL AND SHE WAS EXTREMELY KEEN ON MY WIRELESS OP ALF WITH A RESULT WAS WHEN WE LANDED WHOEVER WAS CLOSE BEHIND US SHE WOULD INVARIABLY COME TO OUR DISPERSAL FIRST TO COLLECT US AND GET US BACK TO DE-BRIEFING IT WAS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE WITH HER! AND I REMEMBER WE HAD BEEN TO LINCOLN THE CREW AND I AND WE HAD GOT BACK TO FISKERTON FIVE MILE HOLT AND YOU CROSSED THE RIVER BY A LITTLE FERRY BOAT IN THE DARK AND SWISS ROLL SAL WAS WITH MY WIRELESS OP AG WITH SOME OTHER WAAFS AND A COUPLE OF OTHER CREWS AND THERE WAS A HILARIOUS MIX UP IN THE BOAT WHEN HALF OF THEM WENT ONTO THE WATER! AND I THINK THAT’S ITS JUST THE FACT AS I SAY EVERYBODY KNEW SWISS ROLL SAL
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Transcript of interview with Allan Edgar
Dad's Transcript Memories of Crew and Missions 1944 to 1945
Description
An account of the resource
The memoirs were recorded in 1980 at a reunion at Sudbrooke. He starts by describing crewing up at Silverstone. His opinion of the Stirling was that it was awful on the ground and in the air. His first operation was a second 'dickie' (an observer) to Konisberg. On his third trip his bomb aimer opened his chute on the ground so Alan gave him his. Fortunately the trip was uneventful. They took part on an operation to Mailly le Camp which turned into a disaster because the bombing points were obscured. On the next operation they machine gunned a train without appreciating how dangerous it was. Then an operation to Bour Leopold, Belgium led to their Lancaster being heavily damaged. They crash landed at Woodbridge and Alan was awarded the DFC. After the landing they drank all the rum they found in a hut. On the next trip to France they were attacked and the hydraulics were damaged resulting in not being able to open the bomb doors. They returned to the UK with the bombs and successfully landed at Turweston. He was always first back because he maintained height until close to the airfield then dived at top speed for the airfield. The other crews could not understand how he achieved this.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alan Edgar
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1980
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
10 typewritten sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MEdgarAG172180-180704-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Great Britain
Poland
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
France--Tours
France--Mailly-le-Camp
Belgium--Leopoldsburg
Poland--Gdańsk
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Claire Monk
1 Group
49 Squadron
83 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
crash
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
flight engineer
Fw 190
ground personnel
He 111
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hurricane
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
mess
navigator
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Silverstone
RAF Syerston
RAF Turweston
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Wittering
RAF Woodbridge
Spitfire
Stirling
target indicator
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/543/8784/PHildrethJ1502.1.jpg
8ed4834a7c5568e0404e563b1c55b83c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/543/8784/AHildrethJ150805.2.mp3
a049e0a8e3147d0060b1b9c4e9b78690
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hildreth, Jeff
J Hildreth
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hildreth
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Jeff Hildreth (1924 - 2017, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 170 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
2015-08-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: It doesn’t look bad.
JH: It’s just nice to know somebody’s doing as they like. You carry on.
AM: Yeah. Off you go. Ok. So, this then this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moody and the interviewee is Jeff Hildreth and the interview is taking place at Jeff’s home in Sutton in Ashfield on the 5th of August 2015. So, tell me a little bit, let’s start off if you just tell me a little bit about your family, where you were born, where you went to school and what your family background was.
JH: Born — Holmewood Derbyshire. But I think I was only one when we left there and thinking about it, it was a time of expansion of colliery villages in North Nottinghamshire. And it was Langold we went to and one of the reasons for that I think was that the NCB, which was expanding like the clappers was not only sinking pits but was also building a village to go with it. Which they had to do to get the men to come and stay there. So [pause] and I can, let me, it’s alright, some words flowed.
AM: Oh, don’t you worry.
JH: And some did not.
AM: So, what did your parents, what did your dad do?
JH: Oh, my dad was down the pit. He was a deputy down the pit. And, oh, during the First World War he was a sergeant in the army and he gave me a lot of advice, ‘Don’t go in the army Jeff. Trenches are muddy.’ [laughs] And in actual fact the thing was the war had started and, but you’d got to be in something of an organization to contribute to the war effort. But as a young lad I joined the ATC and so when my time to, to be actually called up automatically I went into the air force.
AM: To the air force. What did you do between? What, how old were you when you left school?
JH: Oh. Oh, I went to a grammar school. And switch it off and [laughs] I mean, and I went to when it came to getting a job I was out at sixteen and my mother said, ‘Well, it’s time you got a job,’ because she wanted an increase in, you know. Naturally. But oh dear me [pause] I suddenly go and then I stop, don’t I?
AM: And then forget. No. That’s ok. What did you do when you left school then?
JH: Ah, yes. I had to have a job so what job could I get? I think I wanted one in engineering. But having said that I don’t think I knew much about engineering and eventually the only job I could get was working in Montague Burton’s and yes —
AM: Selling suits.
JH: Pardon?
AM: Selling suits.
JH: More than selling them. Wearing them. Because Montague Burton’s was quite, quite a good place in a way in that to work I wore a black coat and striped trousers. And nothing fitted me worse I think. I was not doomed for that. Thank heaven I didn’t. And, in fact, eventually I was called up into the air force and I did, I remember showing it to the manager of the Montague Burton’s. I said, ‘That’s me. I’m going.’ And they always used to talk about, ‘We’ll have your job for you when you come back,’ and I said, ‘I shall not be coming back.’ There were no question. I don’t know what I was going to do but I was not going to come back to selling suits. I mean, I ask you. And I’m still a bit of a mess now, I think. But —
AM: So, when you were called, when you got your call up what happened next?
JH: Oh, well I went — yes, I made another big mistake in my life. You had to go for a medical which was a half day medical. But then, and if that was ok then you were accepted for the air force which then became a three day medical. And so I had to travel away. First time in my life I’d had a travel warrant and you know and so yes, I had a three day medical. And that was ok. So, there was a catch here somewhere. But oh —
AM: You said, you said it was another big mistake.
JH: Yes. I, oh I qualified and they divide you up into, well, what your situation was. I qualified for the PNB system. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. And, and so therefore I was in to aircrew. And that was fine except that [pause] let me think just a little bit. I do apologise.
AM: No, you’re ok.
JH: Somethings working. Half of its working faster than the other half you see. But [pause] oh, no I, I qualified on this PNB system and I could have been a pilot. And I don’t know why I did, for some reason or other, I did not, at that point [pause] and as far as air crew was concerned — oh they were, sorry — little bits coming back. The training for a pilot and a navigator and a bomb aimer, and the bomb aimer was usually pilots and navigators who had failed the course. But their course was something like a two year course I think. And even then, I think this was about ’43. Even then they were foreseeing the end of the war and that to start somebody on a two year training programme was just not on. So therefore, what could I have? And there were a gunnery course which took six months to, or six weeks to train an air gunner which didn’t suit me particularly. Other than that the only other thing was wireless operator. So yes, I’m a wireless operator and I’ve got to Morse code. And I never felt less secure in my life. I mean I learned the Morse code, you know. A is a de dar and B is a da de de dit and the all the rest.
AM: [Imitating Morse code sound]
JH: Yes. But, I don’t know, I didn’t feel, in fact when they asked me would I be alright as a wireless operator I think I said yes because the only time I’d be needed was to send an SOS and you didn’t need to send it. You just put a special switch on because we had a lovely radio set. I mean a Marconi, Marconi 1155. Good heavens above. And it was. You could pick up signals anywhere you like all over the world. So, [pause] but then of course at the end of your course then you’ve got to crew up. Now, I’m not the greatest person in the world at suddenly making contacts with people. And there were, I think something like seventeen wireless operators had just qualified but they only wanted sixteen to make the crews up. And so I was, I was the odd one. I volunteered to wait for the next course. I mean that was anything rather than go, you know. But then one person who should be nameless became ill and came off his course and so the crew that he was with got me. And that’s how I became a wireless operator on a Lancaster, and yes I can remember to some slight degree a sort [pause] yeah. He’s gone hasn’t he?
AM: Gary? He’ll come back in a bit.
JH: Yes. But he’s also got my flying logbook.
AM: Oh right.
JH: Which tells me all my operations.
AM: Ok.
JH: And everything else. And the, but — [laughs]
AM: He’s come back to haunt us. Don’t worry because what we’ll do is look at that afterwards.
JH: Alright. Yes, so I wish I’d never let you take it.
GR: What —?
AM: Have you —
JH: My logbook.
GR: I haven’t got your logbook. Last time I came around —
[recording paused]
JH: I’m sure.
AM: So, panic over. We just found Jeff’s logbook and he’s just looking up his first operation. Where was it to Jeff?
JH: Aschaffenburg, I think. Ops one. Oh no. That’s three. I did three dodge trips. It was, of course, at the beginning when I was — joined the squadron I did a lot of training. All in in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, quite naturally. So, very often I was cycling home.
AM: Right.
JH: I’d got a pushbike. I used to come home at weekends. No trouble at all. But I was fairly [pause] eventually, oh I went to, eventually of course you have to get through to Lancasters and you go on a Lancaster finishing course but —
AM: So, you do your normal training. Then you do your heavy conversion training.
JH: Yes. When you’ve crewed up.
AM: After you’ve crewed up. Yeah.
JH: You’ve got a crew. It was a Canadian navigator or, as he would put it, he came from, “God’s own country, boy.” But there was [pause] I was, I think my pilot, Flight Lieutenant John Baxter. He was, he’d been a pilot instructor. Both gunners, the mid-upper and the rear gunner, were flight lieutenant gunnery instructors. This all helps to, to help me along, you know. And in fact, I felt like the rawest recruit amongst my crew. But eventually, oh yes Dunholme Lodge. It was a lovely place. And first operation — Aschaffenburg, on some marshalling yard. Slight heavy flak. Etcetera. Etcetera.
AM: What did it feel like going on that first operation? Can you remember how you felt?
JH: Well, it was all new because I’d never done anything like that before and you were, you had to go to briefing. And in actual fact, the briefing, a wireless operator doesn’t need briefing. He’s got no real duties unless there’s an emergency. But the people who do need briefing are the navigators because all of us are going to be given the course and the navigator then has got a nice little zigzag. And they start off. When you take off you’ve got a starting time and from then on, according to those distances, the navigator can put at each turning point what time we should be there and so he could turn around and tell the pilot, you know, speed it up.
AM: On course.
JH: Whatever it was. But thinking about it it was a night trip. In fact, I think my first thirteen or fourteen or something were night trips. And you get up and you’re flying and it’s dark and you can’t see any other aircraft except suddenly one comes straight up through the front of your nose. Or the pilot’s, you know. And it was somebody whose navigator was not quite on the same course as ourselves. I mean, and so you suddenly realized that there were, I’m trying to think [pause] was it about four hundred? They used to send about four hundred aircraft at a time. And all you knew is that, now Reading has just walked in. Reading — we flew and we had to take off from Hemswell, excuse me, and we flew south to Reading and what you were doing all the way down to Reading, all the other aerodromes aircraft were all coming to that until you were in a bomber stream. And, and then of course you, you followed the pattern and eventually of course you suddenly could see a target because there was activity up there. Yes. And, you know, there were things bursting and flashing. All sorts. But it was dark so, you know that was alright [laughs] I mean you don’t want to see it. But there were one or two aircraft suddenly close by and you realised that there must be a lot of people. A lot of aircraft crashing on to other aircraft. In fact, they did I’m sure. So, but, you know, eventually we went and we could see the Pathfinders had gone out in front so when you were actually on the bombing run so to speak — that’s the last leg towards the target. Way, way ahead you could see some Wanganui. I’m sorry. Coloured flares. That’s all they were. But that was your target. And also you suddenly, so you know and there was a lot of activity. There were shells flashing and such like as that. But I think we did as we were told. You’d got to do a certain speed through the bombing run but then once you were through it the skipper just put his foot down so to speak and we went home.
AM: What about taking the photograph?
JH: That would be automatic. It might have been the bomb aimer’s job probably. I think. Yes, it would be. It was the bomb aimer. He was the only bloke who was doing nothing apart from me [laughs] And, and that, oh yes and of course you landed eventually and yes there was a piece of metal about that big which one of the ground staff gave to the pilot afterwards. He took it out of our wing. But that was all the, all that we got on that first trip.
AM: And we’re talking about something about four inches square there.
JH: Yes. And about an inch thick. It was a chunk of metal which was shrapnel as such, sort of thing. But the main thing was that you got out and of course you’d got your harness on and so you were, and you didn’t have to carry a parachute. You could clip them on so that was just somewhere down in the aircraft. But when we landed and then you’d taxi around to your dispersal point [unclear] and eventually out. You get out of the aircraft. Yes. And there’s a small ladder. It’s about this high.
AM: Right.
JH: Small metal ladder.
AM: So about four foot high.
JH: Yes. Which the back door is opened. Everybody goes out the back door except the, no — the pilot, he drops out of a, a flap at the front. And there’s a much longer ladder for him. But for ground staff, for us we, our ground staff came and we opened the door and they put this little ladder. And I think I did step out and fall on the floor. I don’t know and it didn’t, I mean it didn’t hurt me or ought like that. It just woke me up a bit [laughs] I think. And I suppose it was getting my balance back on terra firma sort of thing, you know. But, but the main thing was then, of course, you, you, there was a bus. A very old fashioned bus going around and whenever he saw a crew ready to be picked up so he picked them up and eventually, of course, you’re back. Back home. And you get your flying kit off and the flying kit was nice of course. If I said a pair of brown overalls which was rather like a quilt. And then another grey waterproof overall on top and I think and before you got those on — with respect that’s flying kit, before you got those on you had a big blue, dark blue, sweater. And, and of course you got your flying boots. In actual fact I think after the first trip the only thing I ever wore and one or two other people were flying boots and this long jersey. That’s all. The flying kit, it just too hot to wear.
AM: Even when you were actually flying?
JH: Ah yes, because imagine your aircraft and you’ve got four engines. Two on each side and being engines they’ve got exhausts. And so the heating effect of them was the air from the cockpit, from wireless operation — oh yeah, that was, the wireless operator where I sat like that, just here was the main spar that went right through the wing. And it was —
AM: Ok. So just to your right.
JH: It was about that high. It was an H type aluminium girder made out of aluminium about that thick.
AM: About an inch thick.
JH: The strongest bit of the aircraft. I was quite pleased [laughs] They were only daft little things but they registered in my mind. But eventually of course you’re picked up with this bus that’s going around picking you up. You go in to de-briefing then which amounts to telling anything unusual which, you know didn’t or not much. And then of course you went to, and got a meal. Yes. Which was inevitably egg and bacon. It was lovely. And then of course, you, as soon as you’d gone through that lot you went back to your digs and you went to bed. Went to sleep. And that was it. That was quite.
AM: That was it.
JH: And, and then of course when you wake up the next morning. Yes. I’ve done my first trip. It was, you know and, well it was easy. You let that thought come in but then you know it’s got to go out quickly. And, well —
AM: How many operations did you do?
JH: I think it was twenty eight.
AM: Was it twenty eight? And what sort of place? Can you remember different places that you went to?
JH: Aschaffenburg, Duisburg, Cologne. Yeah. They’re all in —
AM: They’re all in the logbook.
JH: Yeah. Sorry. If its red its night time.
AM: Ok.
JH: And there’s ops one. Aschaffenburg. And it tells you how long we were flying. It was six hours forty minutes at night. As I say if its red. And I apologise if I’m saying, repeating myself but [pause] where was it? Karlsruhe. Of course, Karlsruhe. And, well, it’s just Merseburg. Somewhere. Oh yeah. On our second trip we were attacked by a Focke Wulf 190 and, we believed, shot it down. That’s as much, oh believe shot down because someone else referred to a Focke Wulf 190 about that time and about that place.
AM: What did that feel like then? Did you actually see it? The Focke Wulf.
JH: Me? No. Because what I’d got and I’m blowed if I can remember the name of it. It’s radar. And the only contribution I could make was that in, set in to my desk was a radar screen about that big.
AM: Ok. About six inches square. Something like that.
JH: Round.
AM: Round. Sorry.
JH: The early tubes were all round. Wait a minute. And oh, what I could say they told me it was a radar but it only showed the area below the aircraft. If you see a picture of the aircraft there’s a bulge underneath. And inside there is the aerial that’s spinning around all the time, it’s just a small thing and so I got that. But on that occasion when that aircraft came at us, the Focke Wulf 190, I could pick it up because it got close. And I don’t [pause] I seem to recall the words, ‘He’s coming around again,’ and I know that I called up on the microphone. Oh yeah, yes I was able to say on the microphone, ‘He’s coming around again. He’s on a bearing of 7 o’clock.’ And that, I was conscious, I thought there should be a better way of telling people where another aircraft is coming but I thought coming in at 7 o’clock was quite a good one. And I think, yes the rear gunner, as far as we were concerned the rear gunner got him. And in actual fact at, I think the next briefing, for the next operation was the briefing this was referred to and so it was the squadron through Flight Lieutenant Gordon could claim its first kill. And I thought to myself, yeah but that was my kill. They wouldn’t, they wouldn’t know anything about that. I told them, you know. But, but that was it. We, that was the first one. Then there was a second. And some, and of course the worse thing of course was that when you went to a briefing you usually were told about previous occasions. Previous flights. You were also told about anybody in the, in the squadron who did not come back. You got that and so, as you had come back you were beginning to feel a bit lucky. And you were also, as time went on became a senior crew. And in fact, my skipper, he became a flight, flight commander. They broke a squadron up into two flights and he was a flight commander. But —
AM: Did you stick with the same crew all the way through?
JH: Oh yes. Yeah.
AM: What was your pilot called?
JH: John Baxter, came from Sheffield. The navigator was [pause] Stan. Stan from God’s own country. And I don’t know where the others all came. Oh the flight engineer because with it being four engines the pilot needed another engineer to pull throttles up or whatever. And he, I think, I never got on with him very well, but he’d been a, what do you call them, I don’t know, a naughty boy’s school. He was in charge of them so he was I would call a tough cookie, you know. And you didn’t argue with him. And I didn’t get on with him and I didn’t have much to do with him [laughs] so I don’t know. It’s [pause] but of course as you comment on you became more operations, more operations, more operations and when somebody had done their thirty then they got a weeks’, no [pause] I think you got six weeks leave. You got a weeks’ leave every, about every three months. Something like. Sorry, I do apologise. Anybody in the army and anybody in the air force or navy. Well not navy. You would get a weeks’ leave every three months. Until you were flying crew and flying crew we got a weeks’ leave every six weeks. So, you know, I mean I was coming home quite regularly you know. Walking. I mean I was coming back to a colliery village where any other, any lads in the village did not get called up.
AM: Because they were down the mine.
JH: When they said they were working on the tubs or any sort of little job for a lad down the pit that’s it. They were not called up. Only me who was in a tailor’s shop. I got called up. So, I mean, but I don’t know we carried on. Oh and I got, as I say according to that I did twenty eight actual operations. But —
AM: Were there any more hairy ones. You had the Focke Wulf one. Were there any more?
JH: We had that one and something about the tenth I think [pause] Yeah. Ops ten. Stuttgart. Later one kill credited to Flying Officer Gordon. But that’s all about it. And we’d be, we would be told that at the briefing for the next operation. So, it was just Mannheim, Bottrop, Dortmund. Oh crikey. Chemnitz. Some of them were long trips. I think the longest was about thirteen hours. Something like that. From take-off to landing again. So —
AM: You needed your bacon and eggs at the end of it.
JH: But oh it was, you know, you got your egg. It was egg, chips. Egg and bacon and chips. Yeah. You know. And incidentally I didn’t like eggs before I went into the air force but you soon learned to like them when you were flying because it was all you could have. But —
AM: What happened then? After, after you’d done your tour of operations.
JH: Oh well I didn’t quite finish it. Thirty was a full tour. I’d done twenty eight and my navigator at that point, he was Canadian, he went. He could go home. And he did go home straight away, quite naturally. But I think I didn’t want to stop flying. I was quite happy. Oh and we went to — yes did a few trips to [pause] I don’t know where the Manna trips, they were somewhere in Germany I think.
AM: To Holland. On Operation Manna.
JH: Yes. It was Holland. Yes. Because the Germans as they were being pushed out they were stripping the country of anything and naturally any food they took. And that was it. So, yes, we were dropping bags of food to Holland and you went in at low level. About a hundred feet or something like that. And you could see all the people on the side of the dykes waving to you, you know, as you, as they were ready to go and collect the bags. Excuse me. We did so many of those. But then, oh I know — yes. Then we started fetching troops home. The army that had been in the Middle East and the, the battle in the Middle East. The, we’d come on to Italy and started pushing our way up Italy. And they, they were taking a lot of prisoners and of course they needed to get rid of them so we were bringing them home.
AM: So you were flying to Italy to bring them.
JH: Yeah.
AM: Bring them back.
JH: Yeah. Which was, which was very nice. I mean I —
AM: How many could you fit in?
JH: Pardon?
AM: How many could you fit into a Lancaster?
JH: Twenty. And all that we got was that as they entered the aircraft they were given a blanket and then on the next trip we got twenty blankets we could take to the Italians and flog them [laughs] Well, not quite twenty. Some. But we did a bit of that. We, there was a little bit. But Pomigliano was Italy. Yes. It was Naples. Near Naples. Napoli. And, and there was old Vesuvius not far away. So, I mean, that was quite a nice thing. That’s the furthest away I’d been from home I suppose was Napoli. But, and oh —
AM: How many of those trips did you do?
JH: Oh, only about a couple. Yes. And oh, then eventually [pause] I could have left but I stayed with, I went to another squadron. I was with 170 normally. I went to squadron 12 I think because the new aircraft, the Avro Lincoln had come in which were flipping great things and they were a bit like them. So, I got on to Avro Lincolns. Did a bit of flying in those. Cross country’s. All over. You’d have to go and do cross country’s just to get some hours in but —
AM: How long were you still in for? When were you de-mobbed? Can you remember?
JH: No.
AM: No.
JH: I apologise.
AM: Oh no, it doesn’t matter. It’s just that some people stayed, stayed in quite a long time depending how long you’d been in and different people have told me all sorts of different stories about what they did before they were de-mobbed.
JH: I’ll tell you what. I can remember when it came to being de-mobbed. A huge, if you can think of a huge building. Three or four gardens big. And there were civilian people with all your civvy wear and you went in and you’d got people, a bloke fitting you up with a suit. Slap a tape around you, you know. But I knew what it was all about but at the same time you got a suit of clothes and underwear. Yeah. Shoes. And out you went. And then the next day you had to hand your uniform in.
AM: November 19 —
GR: ‘46.
AM: ’46 you were finally de-mobbed. Just had a look in your logbook.
JH: And the war finished in ’45 didn’t it? If I remember right.
AM: So, about a year.
JH: Yeah.
AM: About a year before you were de-mobbed.
JH: Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course I’d only be called up halfway through in a sense. And you’ve got to realise that the country’s got to absorb all these people haven’t they? So, yes it was according to how long you’d been in. Now wait a minute. But you didn’t do anything. You know. I went down, somewhere down south [pause] and it was one winter and there were a few people there and you was to — during winter, yes. And you could go out into the forest, get some logs suchlike and take them back to this mess and you got a log fire going and somebody had got a Monopoly game. And I learned to play Monopoly [laughs] But [pause] I don’t know. I can’t remember.
AM: What did you do after the war?
JH: I think I went back to that tailor’s shop and told him I wasn’t going to, I didn’t want to join, didn’t want to come back in to it. Oh [pause] I went to night school at the technical college. Now, let me think [pause] Yeah. I had to go three nights a week. I lived in Langold and the technical college was in Worksop. And so three nights a week I was going down to do college at Worksop to study my electrical engineering. And [pause] I hope I’m getting it right.
AM: Of course you are. It’s your life.
JH: It’s alright duck. I’m not bothered. Whatever it is. But no I, yeah and I passed. Passed alright the first year. After that I got a day off a week to go to college one day a week.
AM: Where were you working though?
JH: Ah, I worked for the East Midlands Electricity Board. And initially, oh yeah [pause] I had a pick and shovel because what we were doing was you’d go to a, we’d have a job card. You’d go to this house. They were going on to electricity and so we had to put a service in and there was a main, a main, there was a cable in the pavement if you like. Or near there. And I came, we had to lay a small cable in to the house and do the make off so that somebody later on could come and put a meter in and so on and so forth. But the bloke I was with, he was a linesman who could, and so therefore I was a linesman’s mate. But a linesman would climb the pole and with his sash lines and such like and a service to a bracket on the house. And he would tap it on to the line and then down the house into a meter position. Such like. But I think I disappointed him because he could climb. He could climb a pole. He had climbers on of course. But you know he just, and he could walk up like that. I never liked it. I held on too tight and you have not got to do. When you’re climbing a pole you’ve got to have it out there. Just you’ve got to have faith.
AM: They’ve got those footrests to go up on haven’t they?
JH: On each side.
AM: Yeah.
JH: No. They’re, they put one or two of them at the top. No. You had climbers on which was a steel rod strapped on with a little spike.
AM: Oh. So you literally went up, spiked your way up.
JH: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s only the Post Office who have those nice steps further up. So, it wasn’t, it wasn’t the greatest job but then one day they suddenly said you’re an engineer. And I know the engineer was Vic Smith from Worksop. He was an engineer and I think I was, I was with him but, and in actual fact I — yeah. Sometimes you’d need to find a fault on a cable because some of the joints were not put on very well so the valves weren’t. I mean, I’m talking, if you imagine a cable. There were five cores like that. And you’ve got to, you’re going to only use two and so what you do you push a little wooden wedge in to lift it up from, and then you put linen tape. Yes. I had to have them ready and they were in linen oil. Linen tapes in resin oil and thoroughly soaked and you put those on and you just left a little space. And the paper, you ripped the paper off and then the cable you were connecting you just pulled some strands around, poured some, oh and a little bit of cardboard and poured some hot metal on and soldered it on. And then you take that bit up and eventually you put a box on and put compound in. Bitumen.
AM: And that was that. So you ended up as an engineer after all.
JH: Eventually.
AM: Which is what you said right at the beginning.
JH: Yeah.
AM: That you wanted to do.
JH: Yeah.
AM: That’s wonderful.
JH: Yeah.
AM: I’m going to switch the tape off now.
JH: Thank goodness for that.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Jeff Hildreth
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-05
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Sound
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AHildrethJ150805
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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00:44:35 audio recording
Description
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Jeff Hildreth grew up in a colliery village where his father was a miner. When he left school he started working at a tailor’s shop. He didn’t enjoy working in the shop and was happy to volunteer for the RAF and was accepted for to train as a pilot, navigator or bomb aimer. He considered the length of time for training and decided that being a wireless operator would get him operational quickly and would suit him best. When he crewed up he was happy that his pilot and two gunners were all instructors and so he admits happily that this increased his confidence. On one operation they were attacked by a Fokke Wulf 190 which they shot down. He recalls that during briefing they were told of the crews that had not returned and as they had returned they began to have a false sense of being lucky. After the war Jeff became an engineer with the East Midlands Electricity Board.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Italy
England--Lincolnshire
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Temporal Coverage
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1943
Contributor
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Julie Williams
12 Squadron
aircrew
Fw 190
Lincoln
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Dunholme Lodge
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/597/8866/ALeatherdaleF151018.1.mp3
0656231076eab0f126437dd54aae5a5b
Dublin Core
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Leatherdale, Frank
F Leatherdale
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Leatherdale, F
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Frank Leatherdale DFC (b. 1922, 151162 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 7 and 115 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-10-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Transcription
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GR: It’s Squadron Leader Frank Leatherdale.
AM: OK. [laugh] So, my name’s Annie Moodie. I’m working as a volunteer for the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln and we’re recording memories of Bomber Command veterans for the learning centre in Lincoln so that there’ll be there as a record for future generations. And, I am in Norwich today and with Squad— Squadron Leader Frank Leatherdale and it’s the 18th of October 2015. So, thank you for agreeing to this. And, maybe can — if you can just tell me a little bit about your early days. Where you were born and what did your parents do?
FL: I was born in Thornton Heath, which is part of Croydon these days, almost London, but — and educated at the City of London Freemen’s School at Ashtead, um, not that my father was a Freeman. He — we were day pupils there, my brother and I, um, and I was born on 3rd of November 1922. We’d better start there and [clears throat] when I finished school war had just started. July, I finished and, um, I was still too young to join the RAF. They wouldn’t have me until I was eighteen so I joined the local Defence Volunteers, which was before the Home Guard, and I was a bit of a nob [?] on aircraft recognition because I used to make Skybird models. These were 1:72nd wooden scale models of various aircraft and if you’d been filing away at a piece of wood you know that shape when you see it in the sky very well. And this was known in our DV and so they made me a fulltime aircraft spotter and, um, whenever the air raid alarm went I had to leap in my bike, cycle up the road about three or four hundred yards, to where a house had a very good vantage point all round. This was in Leatherhead in the North Downs and the people at this house on the corner left a window open downstairs so I could reach in and grab their telephone. So, this was known as Point L21. Whenever I got there I had to put two numbers, one was the Leatherhead Police Station, the other was a number in the Brooklands Defence. I never did find out quite where it was but it was an Army number. Anyway, and then I reported what I saw and I never saw great droppings of parachutes or anything like that but I did see aircraft and, on one occasion, I was watching the sky and saw this flash out of the corner of my eye, to the south east, and I thought, ‘That’s funny, what was that?’ And the only equipment I had was what we had in the family. I didn’t get any government equipment. So, I just got some little binoculars and I looked through this thing. There was a group of some twenty-odd aircraft coming across and I thought, ‘Oh, that’s unusual,’ and wondered what the flash was I saw and I reckoned then they were Messerschmitt Jaguars which I’d just read about it. The Messerschmitt Jaguar was a version of the 110 fighter but the bomber version with the glass nose. In fact, later on we learnt that they only built about three of these things but it was reported as a new type in our journals. And, um, anyway, I thought they were going to try and get down to London through the back door’ sort of thing, coming over our way. And —
GR: In fact, this would have been, this was 1940 while the Battle of Britain was —
FL: Sorry?
GR: Was this 1940 [unclear] during the Battle of Britain?
FL: October 1940 yes. And so I reported these aircraft through, to the numbers that I had to ring and I found that, whilst we had air raid warning at Leatherhead, um, it hadn’t reached Brooklands. Their sirens hadn’t gone, which was a bit odd, someone slipped up there but, nevertheless, I didn’t think these things were going to Brooklands. I thought they were going to try to get round, as I say, to London from the north, from the north to west through the back door but they got over at Esher and then they then just peeled off. It was like watching something at the Hendon air display in the peacetime. But they just came down one after the other and bombed the Vickers works at Brooklands. They didn’t touch Hawker’s on the other side of the airfield, thank God, but the trouble was, that as the sirens hadn’t gone, they didn’t respond to my warning, which was, would have given them about five minutes. They would have to be pretty quick off the mark. But one of the bombs hit their canteen and it was lunchtime and two hundred workers were killed there with that bomb. Luckily for us, a Polish Squadron based at Croydon, with Hurricanes, had seen these aircraft approaching Brooklands and the chappie in charge of them said, ‘We’d better go and investigate this.’ And they just managed to get there and attack them as, as they were breaking away from their dives and they shot one down, and the Bofors guns got another one and, um, that was it. Well, when the raid was over I jumped on my bicycle and cycled up to where I’d seen this smoke coming up from the one that had been shot down by the Hurricanes in fact, but it didn’t matter. But being an excited schoolboy (I was only seventeen) I didn’t write down how many there were or what it was. I could so easily have looked at this wreck on, burning on the ground and identified it. I, in fact, took a piece of wreckage of it, which is in the museum at Brooklands now. It’s only a little piece of metal. So, as I said, we weren’t very sure what these aircraft were but we eventually found out that they were a fighter bomber. The Germans only built three Jaguars [slight laugh]. These were just their normal fighter bomber Messerschmitt 110. Anyway, I eventually joined the RAF after that and wanted to be a pilot, like we all did, and was sent out to Canada, to the Empire Air Training Scheme, and I went out right across to Calgary and we were flying Tiger Moths at the Elementary Flying Training School and, very quickly, I didn’t have many hours, I got my log book. I had only twelve hours altogether, um, learning to fly this thing but I crashed one on take-off. A lot of people had trouble landing. I had no trouble guessing my height off the ground. I could land them beautifully. It was take-off that got me and when you open up the engine on a, any aeroplane but particularly a thing like a Tiger Moth there’s a vertex, vortex of air going back onto the tail plane and if you don’t do something about it that’s going to push that tail round so the pilot has to take off some of the rudder to keep the thing straight. I was told all this and I thought, ‘Well, that was easy.’ And then I was given a flight commander’s check and this was when I did a ground loop on take-off, spun round, and, you know, well what happened there? Well, of course the undercarriage collapsed. Not a lot of damage done but worrying. Anyway, I was given another check by a more senior instructor and the same thing happened. I did another ground loop. Years later I realised what I think what was happening was that my first instructor was only quite soon, only just been appointed, a pilot himself and, um, and when he said I’d got control he was still on the controls, quite unwittingly I should think. And so, as we were starting to take off he was working the rudder but didn’t know he was. And so I thought, ‘Oh this is fine.’ Off we went but when the flight commander gave me the check he didn’t have his feet on the rudder bar and I had [emphasis] control when he said I had and, um, and of course I didn’t do anything about correcting this swing until I saw the nose starting to move on the horizon and so then I started to over-correct in the opposite direction and that caused the ground loop. So, I was re-mustered, um, and sent down to a training unit right across the other side of Canada to be re-mustered as an air observer. And well, I was all very upset by that but still, I did what I was told, and became an air observer and qualified as such in February ‘43. Oh, I had been sick in hospital in the meanwhile, in Canada, with glandular fever but anyway, so that put me back a bit. And I eventually, afterwards, realised that how lucky I’d been because the most of the pilots on my first course had a very rough time of it. Many of them were killed when they eventually got across Europe and I always thought, ‘Well, I’d rather be a live navigator than a dead pilot.’ Until I was a sergeant na— navigator with the flying Os, we had in those days, I won’t tell you what we used to call them but you know what [laugh]
GR: I know what [laugh].
FL: And, um, came back to England and joined 115 Squadron up at Witchford, just outside Ely, and when we formed up as a crew an Australian pilot said would I be his navigator and I said, ‘Yes.’ And I’m glad I did. He was a very nice chap and a very good officer and he selected the rest of our crew as he was going round in this big hangar meeting people as we did in those days. It was all very voluntary. And so, we got to 115 Squadron flying the Lancaster Mark 2s. Now, the Lanc 2 had Hercules engines so many people thought they were Halifaxes, looking at them quickly. Of course they’d got these Hercules engines but it was a Lancaster Mark 2 and a damn good aircraft because the Hercules engines had got more power than a Merlin so it was rather like having four — a Hercules was an equivalent four Merlins so we could lift a heavier bomb load. Our difficulty was, we also gobbled up more fuel, especially at high altitude. Anyway, quite shortly our pilot was — went into Ely Hospital with pneumonia and they wouldn’t let us wait for him to come out. They sent another pilot up to take over the crew and he was a Canadian and probably a far better pilot than our Australian chap but nothing like the officer that the Australian was. The Australian really was a good officer, had us all trained and — right, this Canadian, he’d come back from a raid and said, ‘Where have we been?’ [laugh] If we’d been shot down, you know, he wouldn’t have a clue where he was. And that was Mack all the time. He was sitting up late at night playing cards with his oppos in the billets and, um, there was one occasion when, in the following morning — oh, I by this time I was a flying officer and so was the pilot, um, anyway, we were down for flying that night and I looked at Mack and I thought, ‘I’m not flying with you tonight.’ His eyes were little slits and red. He’d been up half the night playing these cards with his — and smoking away there. And after, well years after the war I — oh, the raid was cancelled, thank goodness, so nothing happened, but I went to the flight commander, who was George Mackie, a very famous — also a, a navigator, well a flying O [laugh] and I said, you know, ‘Had I gone to you and told you this at the time what would you have done?’ He said, ‘Well, I’d have had to court martial him.’ And I thought it’s a good thing I didn’t. He was a good pilot as I say. But anyway, we got through our thirty trips on that first tour and I, myself, had only done twenty-nine. Because of the change of pilots we were, most of the crew, were one short. However, I was awarded an assessment of above average and so I thought if we went to Pathfinders we’d get more money. And this is a little tale that needs to be told, that when the Pathfinder Force was formed — and, of course, the shot rate was pretty high. Clearly, you were out in front of the main force, they were coming along, and just these few aircraft out in front to mark the targets and our air officer commanding number 8 Group wanted to get us more money and Air Ministry said, ‘No, we’re not paying you danger money. That’s not how we work.’ So he went tick, tick, tick, tick. He promoted everybody one rank and got his money for us. So everybody was happy and, um, there we were and the rest of the crew were mostly made up to officers. They were sergeants or one was a flight sergeant. And so we went to 7 Squadron. After training at the Pathfinder Training Unit you went to Oakington just outside Ely —
GR: Did you have a break in between? Sorry Frank in between finishing your first tour and then going did you have a break, did you have —
FL: No, no. We, we carried straight on.
GR: Oh you went straight through.
FL: And, um, and I think well, I’m going to volunteer for Pathfinders, are the chaps are coming with me? Well the pilot didn’t want to, being Canadian he was going to go back to Canada and do more training, um, and the flight engineer didn’t want to because he’d just got married on one of the deep leaves that we had at the end of our ops. The rest of them came with me and joined, we joined Pathfinders and we picked up a new pilot there. And, in fact, we didn’t have, we had several different pilots in Pathfinders. It wasn’t a sort of regular crew. The rest of us were but the pilots seemed to come and go. And so, we staggered through a tour on Pathfinders, and we had — twice we were master bombers on the raids so that was good and when I finished there, I was assessed as above average and I thought, ‘Well, that was pretty good.’ But assessed as above average in a Force which was itself was above average. Anyway, I was then I posted to the Radar Research Establishment down at Defford which did all the flying for all the boffins at the Intelligence Communication Radar Establishment at Malvern and, um, I was the station navigation officer at Defford and they had all sorts of aircraft there so this was great fun for me. I liked flying in different planes and, um, anyway I did a lot of flying with the CO of the bomber flight. There was a bomber fight, a coastal flight and things like that at Defford, a naval flight as well, and this pilot, the CO of A Flight, was a chap called Ken Letchford [?] DSO and bar, DFC, from his Pathfinder days. Anyway, I did quite a lot of flying with him and got on very well with him and I flew with a lot of other pilots as well and, um, one of the jobs we were working on was Doppler navigation and the boffins were sitting at the back of a, another Mark 2 Lancaster actually and I had to align the nose, looking at the road or ground ahead, and the boffins would say, ‘We’ve got a return coming up at two miles.’ And I’d say, ‘Yes there’s a motorcycle there,’ or whatever it might be so, eventually, over time they would learn what these returns were on their Doppler. A car would give them this sort of picture and something else would give something different and so on. Well, this meant very low, a lot of it was very low level flying, and Ken Letchford would get right down on the deck, which is what the boffins wanted, so that their Doppler radar looked along the ground. This was just after the Germans had broken through in the Ardennes and, um, so there was a bit of a hurry on to get this equipment working because, at the time of the German breakthrough, which was a bit foggy, the air wasn’t able to give much support to the American sector where the Germans had attacked. Anyway, I would be lying there in the nose and all down the Bristol Channel you’d get these little blocks with a pole and a little light on it for, to warn the shipping, a little — fishing smacks and things, and Ken would go over [slight laugh] and down the other side. Well, when you switch the microphone on in an aeroplane you get a swooshing noise and as soon as I switched on Ken would say, ‘It’s alright Frank. I know where it is.’ And he always did, while most pilots would lose have lost it under the nose, they’d no longer see it, but his skill was he always knew right where it was, and sure enough, as I say, up and down the other side and so there it was. Anyway, one of the pilots I was flying with was — it was the first time I’d flown in a Beaufighter and he’d done his ops on Beaufighters, this chap, and, um, we had a, or the boffins had, a radar station on the Welsh coast, at a place called Brawdy, so that they could work out over Fishguard Bay and so we’d gone down there for, to take some equipment to them. On the way back this pilot decided to beat up Porthcawl and he dived down on the beach at Porthcawl as we were flying back home and to get in the Beaufighter the navigator had to go up through the bottom of the back compartment. The main spar separated you from the pilot’s cabin, no way through physically, and it was the general practice and I did the same as I’d been shown to leave my parachute pack on the airborne interception equipment and, anyway, as the pilot had dived down on Porthcawl, pulled up afterwards, he pulled a lot of G and I was crushed down in my seat and hanging on the sides of the plane and I could feel myself slipping down. And the floor of my compartment was the door which I had climbed in through and it had put the extra load and the extra negative G had snapped the lock on it and that meant I’d slid out a bit so my intercom plug pulled out of the socket and I couldn’t talk to the pilot at all. Thank God he was the man he was because, not only was he an experienced Beaufighter pilot, he’d also done the test flying on Beaufighters at Bristols and as soon as this door started to open he felt the change of trim. So, he thought, ‘Crickey.’ You know, he could guess what was happening and so he quickly put the plane into a bump, and a bump is a reverse loop, and you can — and coming down like that and again had he continued he would have done up and done the loop but he just, just pulled up. So, anyway he stuck the nose down quickly and that got me [unclear] back into my seat with positive G instead of negative G and, um, I was able to plug in and say I was still there and he said, ‘Yes right. We’ll carry on.’ And we got home alright. Just after he’d left Defford, which he was wing CO there at this time, a chap Peter Gibb, he set the world record for a jet aircraft altitude climb. He was — had gone to, back to Bristol’s as a test pilot and, um, he set this thing at about sixty thousand feet or something [clears throat] and about a fortnight later he thought, ‘Well, I can better this.’ Bristols had different engines so he got them to fit more powerful Bristol engines to this Canberra and he went up, and he left the navigator out so it would reduce his weight, and set another world record, which might be even still there to this day. Certainly all the time war was on it was still the record, of about sixty-five thousand feet. Anyway, as I say, I flew with several interesting people, many of them much medal-ridden. One, a chap called Trousdale, he was a New Zealander really, um, but he got the DFC and an AFC and he was also awarded a Dutch [emphasis] DFC because he’d done intruder work in his Beaufighter and he bombed bridges and barges and things like that. Anyway, the Dutch DFC is like ours but is — where the DFC’s got blue and white stripes and the Air Force Cross has got red and white stripes, the Dutch one has got orange [emphasis] and white stripes so, until such time we was issued our campaign medals, these three medals were together. Later on, of course, the Dutch one, being Dutch, would become at the end of his row of medals with the — so you would have the DFC, the AFC, then the campaign medals and then this Dutch one but until that time they were these things and then he was an outstanding chap to look at, he’d got all these strips of different colours. Anyway, he was a very good pilot and, um, one of the flights I did with him, he decided to go in a B17. We had one Flying Fortress, an American Boeing B17. We also had a Liberator there. Anyway, we had to go down to Geschborn, Eschborn [emphasis] in Germany to pick up some equipment which the boffins had left there. As the Army advanced across Germany they got parcelled this stuff up to bring it back to examine it more carefully in this country. And we went over to pick this up and we had to land at Croydon airport coming back, both to clear Customs and to dump off this package of radar equipment, which was going to go Air Ministry to get it in their hands quickly. And so, as we came into land I had wonderful seat right in the nose of this B17. I was navigating on a thing called a Bigsworth board, which was a mobile chart table really. How I came by it? I don’t know. I must have found it somewhere in some odd corner of a RAF station I’d been on. It was from the First World War really. But anyway, it was a very good mobile chart table, and as we flew up the Thames and then turned south to go into Croydon, over the houses, which I hadn’t seen before because they didn’t go that way, bombers obliviously at night but even in daylight we wouldn’t fly over London. Anyway there we were having to fly over London, all these houses, incredible, and we came in and Croydon was a grass aerodrome, didn’t have built-in runways at that time, and I’d been there as a boy, before to war, to see airliners go in and out and, um, I thought, never thought I’d come and land here so it was quite an experience for me to land there. Anyway, um, when I’d finished my two years as a station navigation officer at Defford I was sent to the Pathfinder Training Unit as an instructor and I hadn’t been there very long when the CO said, ‘Oh Frank, go and get your kit. The AOC wants to take a Lanc up.’ The AOC, this was Bennett, Air Vice Marshall Bennett, the most famous navigator in the world, you couldn’t get a — you know, what he hadn’t done, a tremendous man. Anyway, the reason he wanted to go on this flight whilst we had target indicator bombs, which were red and green and one or two yellows but we, our boffins couldn’t get blue and the Germans would make up false target indicators, which they would fire up with their anti-aircraft guns, and try and make people bomb the wrong place so, if they could get a blue marker then the Germans would have — apparently one Dave Brocks [?] said, ‘We’ve got the thing for you. We’ve got a blue marker.’ And so Bennett, being the man he was, said, ‘Right, I want to see it.’ And so, this is why he took a crew made up of other instructors at the Pathfinder Training Unit and, um, I must admit I wasn’t unworried. I was right on my toes because I was ready, knowing that Bennett was an efficiency man, and we took off from Warboys where we were. You could see the Wash and the ranges on it but of course coming the other way I knew very well — but he would knew where he because he knew the place was like the back of his hand. Anyway, I kept the thing right up to date on my G Box. If he asked for a course I could give it to him immediately. And anyway, these marker things, what Brocks had done was to fill marker bomb case with chopped up blue paper and so, when it was burst in daylight, this showered down and make quite a little blue cloud of — in the sky but quite hopeless for a crew to see it and in daylight not at all. So he wasn’t very pleased with that but it was interesting. Well when we landed — By the way Bennett wrote a book on air navigation, I think it might be still the book on it and I had it in my RAF bag and so we landed and I said, ‘Would you mind Sir autographing my book.’ ‘No lad!’ [laugh] I thought he’d be happy to do it. And he turned round to the wireless operator, sorry the flight engineer, and said, ‘And get your microphone checked.’ And this chap had been stuttering and stammering all the way through the flight and I didn’t know him from Adam, of course, it was just other instructors pulled together to make this crew up for the CO, AOC, and he turned round to this flight engineer and said, ‘Get your microphone checked, lad.’ And the chap looked a bit red faced but still. There wasn’t anything wrong with his microphone at all. He was just scared of Bennett. Couldn’t say two words together but you didn’t need to be scared of Bennett. If you were doing your job he would back you to the hilt but if you weren’t doing your job that was another matter. He would soon see you were going to — and he was a great one for training and even when we were on the Squadron we never wasted time. If you weren’t on ops for some reason you’d be sent off on a training exercise. Now, I didn’t worry about this because I could see the benefit of it. It speeds up your work, certainly as a navigator, if you keep in practice every day but some of the boys didn’t like this. They thought it — they would rather go into town [slight laugh] and relax and so on. But anyway, there we were that was Bennett’s method and I think it saved a lot of lives and improved a lot efficiency. So —
GR: So where are we in war time now?
AM: 45? Or 44?
FL: Well, the war came to an end.
AM: 45?
FL: Well, I was eventually demobbed and, um, oh, whilst I was at Defford at the radar establishment I was working on equipment called Airfield Controlled Radar, 3X, X stands for ten centimetre waveband and I said to the wing commander of flight and I said, ‘Look if I’m here to use this equipment and help the boffins I need to get trained as an air traffic control officer.’ He said, ‘Yes I can understand that.’ So I was sent off just on — as duty from Defford to the Air Traffic Control School at, er, Edgeware. I became a — qualified an air traffic control officer so, when I came to be demobbed, I got myself a job with the Ministry of Civil Aviation and, um they were all ex-RAF chaps of course. I was posted to the area control at Uxbridge and one Saturday the boys were going off to lunch and they said, ‘Frank, you’d be alright looking after things.’ I said, ‘Yes, no trouble.’ And a little Airspeed Oxford came in up in, er, distress having flying from the Channel Islands to Southampton lost an engine and this was November, which was not the sort of time to come down in the Channel, cold water and so on. Anyway, as soon as the emergency arose and did what we would have done the RAF always and I picked up the telephone, got through to Mountbatten in Plymouth and said, ‘We’ve got a problem here. Can you have a launch standing by?’ So they said, ‘Yes.’ And alerted a launch somewhere up, probably in Southampton, to get ready to fish someone out of the water. Well, the aircraft landed in Southampton so didn’t leave anyone on tenterhooks waiting for this emergency that no longer existed. I made another telephone call to Mountbatten to say, ‘Thank you very much, stand down, all is OK.’ Come Monday morning, the senior air traffic controller at this centre, who had been at Croydon before the war and how he dodged the war I don’t know but he was in air traffic —, and he, the plane was so antiquated, it wasn’t true. I mean, the RAF had been using radio telephony for ages but not these boys. They were sending turns to land at their simple air fields by WT, on the Morse code, so it meant carrying a wireless operator in the aircraft to trans— for the messages between the air and the ground. Anyway, this chap came in Monday morning and said, ‘What are these two telephone calls to Mountbatten?’ And I explained what it was and he said, ‘Oh no, no, no. You mustn’t do that. Only the Minister can ask the RAF to help. You should have sent a telegram (or a signal he put it but that turned out to be a telegram) to the Minister asking if he would give permission to help these poor blokes.’ Well, by that time they’d had been dead if they had landed in the deep and so I was so infuriated and instead of taking humble pie I said, ‘That is ridiculous, the cost of two telephone calls.’ And all the correct procedures, a far as I was concerned, and the bad thing would have been if I’d left them standing by and hadn’t told them the chap had landed safely. So anyway, instead of eating humble pie, that very morning I had a letter from the Air Ministry in my pocket offering me a permanent commission in the RAF. At this time I was still a volunteer, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. And I thought I don’t know what to do about this but that made up my mind, and I said, ‘I’m going back to the RAF.’ And that was the start of my proper RAF career in post-war days. I did a tour on Lincolns at Waddington and, um, and then I had been doing quite a lot of work on evasion and escape. There was an organisation, the Air Ministry Air Intelligence 9 it was called, and it taught people how to evade and so on and they used to lay on exercises to train people and each station might have one operation perhaps only once a year perhaps, but it laid on that the air crew go off as if they were invading, evading and told they would be dropped off of coaches and they didn’t know where they were, they wouldn’t be told where they were, they had to find out where they were just as if they’d bailed out and, um, and the local police and some army units usually provided opposition for them, trying to catch them. Almost the first exercise that I did, actually organising it, I thought well it’s — when these chaps are caught and brought in to the Police Headquarters, the Police Headquarters were regions around the country, they were being interrogated and I realised that this was not teaching them very much at all because there was no fear at all so they wouldn’t, wouldn’t know quite what, how to react to it. So I had myself, hired myself from Mos Bros an army officer’s uniform as a captain in the artillery with some war medals — oh, and I should say I’d been awarded the DFC in Pathfinders, so I had an MC on this uniform, and the exercise started and I was at the Police Headquarters where these chaps who were caught brought in and I had two big labels put on doors of two different rooms, one saying ‘RAF Interviewer’ and one saying RA— ‘Army Liaison Officer’. So, they would come in and they had been told, of course, to say nothing until the exercise ended on the Monday, the course was over a weekend, and various chaps were brought in and, much to my surprise, one of them was the station commander of RAF Coltishore and he’d decided to go on the run with the boys and he got caught. So anyway, he came in and to me as an Army Liaison Officer and he started to tell me all about the exercise, where they were going, where the [unclear] were and I was taking all this down and when he’d gone I went round to the wing commander policemen who was in charge of the opposition and said, ‘Look if we let this information out it’s the end of the exercise because there’s no point in it so we’ll keep this quiet until Monday morning.’ But then I had to put my report into Air Ministry, which I did, group captain so and so said this, that and the other. He was livid [emphasis]. He was going to have me court martialled wearing a uniform to which I wasn’t entitled, a medal to which I wasn’t entitled and, of course, it had all been laid on by Air Ministry, quite legitimately as far as I was concerned before-hand, and this station commander was none other than a chap called Bing Cross who was always a bit of a firing one. So anyway, that was that. Oh, and then the Suez operation came up and at this time I was at Upwood which was a Canberra station. I was in charge of the ground support system there and, when it as over, it was decided that proper, um, honour should we say, should be given to those who took part and Prince Michael, I think it was, came round and I had to lay out a graphic, get all these photographs that had been taken during the operation in Suez and, of course, you could speak to all the air crew of the squadrons that had gone from Upwood. Well, of course, naturally with such a high ranking visitor the air officer commanding Upwood, which was 1 Group, was Gus Walker, a little man who’d lost an arm during the war when he was rescuing a team, a crew of a bomber that crashed on his airfield at Flintham [?], a wonderful man, and anyway he was there and Cross turned up to represent his squadrons that had taken part in Suez and so Gus Walker, this 1 Group Air Vice Marshal, started to tell Bing Cross, the Air Vice Marshal of 3 Group, about me and I thought, ‘Oh my God.’ And Cross turned round to Gus Walker and said, ‘I know him.’ [laugh] And, much to my surprise, told this tale about himself. I didn’t think he was like that. He’d forgotten over the years perhaps but, um, anyway, he told Gus Walker all about me so that was that.
AM: Gosh, where, where did you —
FL: And then I went out to Korea with the Army still on this evasion and escape drop. I was an Air Ministry liaison officer, the only one north of — well only one in Korea really, certainly —
GR: That’s while the Korean War was on?
FL: Korean Headquarters where I had a little tent and each new lot of soldiers coming in I had to brief them on evading and so on. Well, of course, evading in Korea was very different from evading in this country. I mean, you couldn’t walk around and pretend you were anything other than what you were, with your white face and so on. But, um, so really it was a question of teaching them how to live off the land rather than how to evade but, anyway, that’s what we did and so for two years I was doing that, not only with the Army, I was, I went out onto the boats, HMS Ocean and HMS, oh, the other one. Anyway, there were two aircraft carriers [sneeze] and also I used to work with the Americans, 5th Air Force. I went out on the other coast to one of their big aircraft carriers and spoke to their air crew and so on.
GR: And that would be the early ‘50s, wouldn’t it? 1952, ’53?
AM: No later than that. It’s later than that isn’t it —
GR: The Korean War was ’53.
FL: Anyway, I went back to — well, Air Force Technical Training Command, working in research branch, that was interesting, no flying really, and then from that back — well to 115 here at Marham then, and flying Washingtons, B59s, as the Americans called and I was flight commander on B Flight.
GR: When did you finish in the RAF, Frank?
FL: Sorry?
GR: When did you finish in the RAF the second time around?
FL: Yes —
Frank’s wife: We always forget don’t we?
AM: ‘80s?
FL: Well, oh, from that I was given command of 220 Squadron with Thors, ballistic missiles, so for that I had to go to America to be trained as a launch control officer and ,um, then came back and was stationed up the road at Swaffham, north Ickenham, and when I my tour of duty was finished with that, the only job open for a squadron leader of my seniority, was to run the officers’ mess at one of the three bomber stations and I thought, ‘My God, going from missiles to messes, you know, what is the RAF coming to?’ [laugh] I had long realised that it was a pilot’s Air Force and didn’t have the same promotion chances as navigators. It’s changed now. You’ve got quite a few navigators right up the top but not in those days. If you weren’t a pilot you got nowhere so I thought, ‘Well, I’ll come out.’ And, um, sorry, I can’t think of the year. It doesn’t really matter.
AM: No, it desn’t matter.
FL: So that was the end of my RAF career, running this officers’ mess. In fact, it got me a job in civil life but that’s another story and you won’t want to know about that [laugh]. It’s probably about some of the things in Bomber Command and there’s one flight that I would like to record —
AM: It’s on.
FL: And that’s with 115, from when I was at Witchford. 115 was a big squadron and A and B Flights had used up all the letters of the alphabet because our code letters were KO for 115 Squadron so you had KO, then the roundel and then the aircraft identification A, B, C, whatever it might be. Well, when they got round to C Flight, as I said, they’d used up all the letters of the alphabet so, instead of having KO as the number we had A4. Well, it was a big A and little 4 like a Q and this particular night we’d been down to bomb Friedrichschafen on the —
GR: Maltese [?] coast.
FL: There’s a big lake there now.
Frank’s wife: Lake Constance?
FL: The Messerschmitt factory was in — it was a terrible night, stormy, thunder clouds, bouncing around and I was feeling quite sick. I did suffer from air sickness a great deal in rough aircraft. Anyway, we got down there, markers went down, we bombed the target and turned to come back when we did I didn’t get much help on the way down fixing our positon. And so I knew we obviously — Friedrichschafen that was the name of the place. I knew we’d been at Friedrichschafen when we bombed so from that I could work out what the average speed wind had been since we took off and I thought I’d use this average wind to get home. And the wireless operator couldn’t get me any bearings. Because of these thunderstorms the radio waves had been bounced off the thunderclouds and so the DF direction systems couldn’t help us. It was us on them or them on us. But we got back to where it was over Witchford to Ely and, in those days, all the aircraft had a radio transmission in the aircraft to speak to the ground but it had a limited range of nine miles, deliberately, because there was so many airfields that if it was any wider the ether would be absolutely cluttered with talking so, anyway, we got to where we should have been over Witchford, over Ely, and calling up for a turn to land, deathly quiet, nobody about, no other aircraft, nobody answering. So I thought, ‘Well that’s odd.’ Well, if the wind has changed well we would have been blown this way so I’d go north for ten minutes but then the wind may have gone the other way so I’d go west for ten minutes, still trying to find Witchford, and we had a system, if you were lost you called out ‘Darky’. That was the call sign to get help and any ground station hearing somebody calling ‘Darky’ would answer it with the name of their station. As I said, we were limited to nine miles so you knew you would be within nine miles of that airfield, um, but anyway, nobody answered our Darky call and we went north ten minutes, west ten minutes, north ten minutes, west ten minutes and all the time the bright lights on the fuel tanks were glowing red and I thought, ‘Oh my God, you know, we’re going to be in trouble here.’ And then, just as I was going to tell the crew to — I think I did tell them actually, yes, we sat on the Mae West dinghy, individual pack, and but you didn’t have it clipped to your parachute harness. Normally we just sat on it, that was it, but when you wanted to use it you had to clip it on to the side of your parachute harness otherwise you wouldn’t have a dinghy. So, I warned the crew to hook on their dinghy’s and just at that point we were going north and the rear gunner spotted a searchlight to the rear, to, in other words, to the south and just shining a single searchlight on the cloud. Well, that was, er, quite a normal procedure for showing where an airfield was, a Sandra light it was called, a single searchlight, so we turned to go towards that and I thought, ‘Hang on. We’re going south and we might have been blown a long way south to start with and we could be going to France.’ And we knew the Germans had set up airfields in northern France, along the coast, to make them look like RAF airfields to try and say, ‘Come on in boys. This is where you are.’ Just to capture you, capture the aeroplane, so we carried a little bomb in the aircraft and coming down on hostile country this was to be put in the wing over the fuel tank and then you ignited it, it was an incendiary bomb, and it would burn the aircraft up. And that was the job of the wireless operator was to get out through the hatch on top and go and do this once we’d landed. Anyway, we did quite agree and what I told them to do was for the gunners to protect the aircraft while he was going to do that. Of course, he couldn’t get out until the aircraft had landed, obviously. Anyway, as we got down into the circuit, once we’d broke through this layer of cloud, we could see where the searchlight was shining on the cloud, reflecting all around like daylight underneath, and one of the gunners said, ‘Cor, this is a Messerschmitt over there and a Dornier over there.’ Oh yes, this is one of those German places so I said, ‘Look, gunners stay in their turrets and fight off anyone who comes while we get out and get this bomb burning.’ Well, I used to carry a Mouser pistol because I didn’t like the idea of the RAF only giving you a Bentley 38 with six rounds of ammunition. It wasn’t going to last you very far on the continent but a friend of my fathers had captured this Mouser nine millimetre in the fighting in Russia after, as the First World War ended, and he’d had given it to me so I had this thing. Well, I was going to go to the door and help fight off any Germans coming to try and capture the aircraft and as the tail hit the runway, as we landed, the engines cut, we were right out of fuel. I thought, ‘Goodness me we couldn’t ever get any closer than that.’ Well, we knew it was really low because we’d had red lights on the fuel tanks for some while but, of course, as the engines cut the lights went out because it was the dynamos in the engines that kept the lights going. So, I went on back down to — in the darkness to fiddle with the outside door. Well, it was opened from the outside and a good old English voice said, ‘Oh, 115 Squadron.’ Oh no, there’s something funny about this because, as I said, we didn’t carry 115 letters. We weren’t marked up as KO we were marked as A4 so I thought I’ll put my pistol behind me [laugh] you know, and we found we had landed — oh, sorry as we were approaching it through the static we did pick up the words, ‘Something Ford Bridge standing by.’ I thought Stamford Bridge. Can’t be Yorkshire but it might have been. But anyway where are we? And it turned out what we’d now call Blackbushe, down near Woking . And, um, so it transpired our gunners were quite right, what was happening was that this was just before — well, D -Day hadn’t happened but they were getting ready for it and they got such German aircraft as they caught and assembled there, so that pilots could learn to fly them, so that when the invasion took place they could get over and bring German aircraft back to us. But I was so shattered after that I said, ‘I’m so sorry I can’t stand any more after this. I’m going to resign.’ Of course, it wasn’t just me. It was six other aircraft and they were relying upon me and I failed them. So anyway, when we eventually got back to our base at Witchford the following day, um, the station navigation officer went through my work and said, ‘I couldn’t find any mistakes here. It’s just you didn’t have the information that you needed.’ Well, I said, ‘That’s true. I couldn’t get any information on the way back.’ So, we were just lucky and I said, ‘Well, as a navigator or as an old flying O, I was trained as a gunner. I could go and fly with somebody else in the turret. It didn’t worry me. I’d be quite happy to fly in the turret.’ But the crew said, ‘No, we want you as our navigator.’ I said, ‘Well, you know, we went all through the business of laying mines and mines and so on.’ But we stayed together and carried on with Pathfinders.
AM: Crikey.
GR: Wonderful.
FL: That was a very dodgy, that was the most frightening flight I had.
AM: The dodgiest one of the lot.
FL: Sorry?
AM: The dodgiest one of the lot. You just can’t imagine actually that moment of landing and no fuel. Two more minutes, three more minutes and — gosh. I’ll switch back off again then.
Dublin Core
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Interview with Frank Leatherdale
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Annie Moody
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-18
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Sound
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ALeatherdaleF151018
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:59:36 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Frank was an aircraft spotter for the Local Defence Volunteers and volunteered to join the Royal Air Force as a pilot. He went to Calgary in Canada on the Empire Air Training Scheme, where he few Tiger Moths at the Elementary Training School. He was, however, re-mustered as an air observer and qualified in February 1943.
Frank joined 115 Squadron at RAF Witchford, where his crew was formed and flew in Lancaster Mk 2. His first tour consisted of 30 trips, although they only completed 29 because of a change of pilots. He then joined 7 Squadron, part of the Pathfinder Force. He trained at the Pathfinder Training Unit and went to RAF Oakington where they were twice Master Bombers. After his tour, Frank was posted to the Radar Research Establishment at RAF Defford as station navigation officer. It involved several different aircraft and flights (bomber, coastal, naval). He describes several of the interesting people he flew with and the work on Doppler navigation. Frank was subsequently sent to the Pathfinder Training Unit as an instructor and recounts a flight with Air Vice Marshal Bennett, investigating blue target indicator bombs.
After Frank was demobilised, he worked initially as an air traffic control officer before accepting a permanent commission into the RAF. Frank goes on to describe his post-war RAF activities.
Squadron Leader Frank Leatherdale was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for his work in Pathfinders.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Worcestershire
Canada
Alberta
Alberta--Calgary
115 Squadron
220 Squadron
7 Squadron
aircrew
B-17
B-29
Beaufighter
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
Lincoln
Master Bomber
navigator
observer
Pathfinders
radar
RAF Defford
RAF Marham
RAF Oakington
RAF Waddington
RAF Witchford
searchlight
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/201/10044/BBaileyJDBaileyJDv1.1.pdf
3a146f510c94f18f8643a8ac43ad6772
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bailey, John Derek
John Derek Bailey
Bill Bailey
John D Bailey
John Bailey
J D Bailey
J Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with John Derek "Bill" Bailey (b. 1924, 1583184 and 198592 Royal Air Force) service material, nine photographs, a memoir and his log book. He flew a tour of operations as a bomb aimer with 103 and 166 Squadrons from RAF Elsham Wolds and RAF Kirmington.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Bailey and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-12-07
2017-01-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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Bailey, JD
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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[centred] “WAS IT ALL A DREAM” [/centred]
[centred] The Memories of a Wartime Bomb Aimer Bill Bailey with No. 1 Group Bomber Command February 1942 to April 1947
These things really happened. I now have difficulty in remembering what I did yesterday but happenings of Fifty-odd years ago seem crystal clear, or
Was it all a dream? [/centred]
[page break]
Chapter 1. Enlistment – Royal Air Force Training Command.
The story begins on 2 February, 1942, my 18th. Birthday, when I rushed off to the recruiting office in Leicester and enlisted in the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve as potential aircrew. Being a founder member cadet (No. 6) of 1461 Squadron Air Training Corps was a help. I passed the various medicals, etc[sic] and was sent to the aircrew attestation centre in Birmingham for the various tests for acceptance as aircrew. Like most others I wanted to be a pilot but on the day I attended I think they had that day’s quota of pilots. It was said my eyesight was not up to pilot standard but I could be a navigator. I was said to have a ‘convergency’ problem and would probably try to land an aircraft about ten feet off the deck.. I was duly accepted for Navigator training. The procedure was then to be sent home, attend ATC parades regularly and await further instructions. This was known as ‘deferred service’ and with it came a letter of welcome to the Royal Air Force, from the Secretary of State for Air, at that time Sir Archibald Sinclair, and the privilege of wearing a white flash in my ATC cadet’s forage cap which denoted the wearer was u/t (under training) aircrew.
So it was that on the 27 July 1942 I was commanded to report for service at the Aircrew Reception Centre at Lords Cricket Ground, St. Johns Wood, London. I was now 1583184 AC2 Bailey, J.D., rate of pay two shillings and sixpence per day. We were billeted in blocks of flats adjacent to Regents Park and fed in a vary[sic] large underground car park at one of the blocks or in the restaurant at London Zoo. Talk about feeding time at the Zoo!! A hectic three weeks followed, issue of uniforms and equipment, dental treatment, numerous jabs, endless square bashing - the ATC training helped. Lectures on this, that and everything including the dreaded effects of
[page break]
VD, the latter shown in glorious Technicolor at the Odeon Cinema, Swiss Cottage. Not that this was of much consequence at that time because we were reliably informed that plenty of bromide was put in the tea.
One day on first parade I and one other lad from my Flight were called out by the Flight Corporal, a sadistic sod, who informed us we had volunteered to give a pint of blood. Apparently we had an unusual blood group and some was required for what purpose I have never really understood.
Having completed the aforementioned necessities it was a question of what to do with us next.
The next stage of training was to be ITW (Initial Training Wing). but there was congestion in the supply line from ACRC to the ITW’s so a “holding unit” (this term will crop up from time to time) had been established at Ludlow and it was to there that we went.
Ludlow consisted of three Wings in tented accommodation and was progressively developed into a more permanent establishment by the cadets passing through, using their civilian life skills. We were allowed (officially) one night in three off camp so as not to flood the pubs, of which there were many, with RAF bods, and cause mayhem in the town.
Four weeks were spent at Ludlow. It was said to be a toughening up course and it was certainly that.
Next stop from Ludlow was to an ITW. Most ITW’s were located in seaside towns with the sea front hotels having been requisitioned by the Air Ministry. In my case I was posted to No.4 ITW at Paignton, Devon where I was to spend the next twelve weeks living in the Hydro Hotel, right on the seafront near the harbour.
Twelve weeks of intensive ground training. At the end of this period I was at the peak
[handwritten in margin] followed (needs a verb[?]) [/handwritten in margin]
[page break]
of fitness and having passed my exams was promoted LAC – pay rise to seven shillings a day.
One of the subjects covered at ITW was the Browning .303 machine gun and I well remember the first lecture on this weapon when a Corporal Armourer giving the lecture delivered his party piece which went as follows: “This is the Browning .303 machine gun which works by recoil action. When the gun is fired the bullet nips smartly up the barrel, hotley [sic] pursued by the gases …”. Applause please!
Another subject learned was the Morse Code and here again the training in the ATC stood me in good stead.
The next phase would be flying training, but when and where?
On New Years[sic] Day 1943 we were posted from Paignton to yet another ‘holding unit’ at Brighton. The move from the English Riviera to Brighton was like going to the North Pole. At Brighton we were billeted in the Metropole Hotel. More lectures, square bashing and boredom, until, after about three weeks, on morning parade it was announced that a new aircrew category of Airbomber had been created and any u/t Navigators who volunteered would be guaranteed a quick posting and off to Canada for training.
Needless to say, yours truly stepped forward and within a week had been posted to Heaton Park, Manchester which was an enormous transit camp for u/t aircrew leaving the UK for Canada, Rhodesia or America for training.
They used to say it always rains in Manchester and it certainly did continuously whilst I was there. Anyone who has seen the film “Journey Together” will have seen a departure parade at Heaton Park in pouring rain. I am told that on the day that film was shot it was fine and the fire service had to make the rain. Sods Law I suppose!
[page break]
Chapter II. Canada – The Empire Air Training Scheme.
Next, after a farewell meal of egg and chips (In 1943 a delicacy), and a few words from the C in C Training Command, it was off to Glasgow to board the “Andes” for our trip to Canada.
The ‘Andes’ was said to be jinx ship in port. She didn’t let us down. In the Clyde she dropped anchor to swing the compass and when she tried to up anchor a submarine cable was wrapped around it. After a couple of days we finally left the Clyde and I endured six days of seasickness before arriving in Halifax, Nova Scotia and then to yet another enormous transit camp at Moncton, New Brunswick where we enjoyed food that we had not seen in the UK since the start of food rationing. It was in a restaurant in Moncton that I had my very first ‘T’ Bone steak.
The first task at Moncton was issue of cold weather kit to cope with the Canadian winter and Khaki Drill to cope with the very hot Canadian summer. We were at this time in the middle of the winter and colder than I had ever experienced before.. The next stop should have been to a Bombing & Gunnery School but before that there had to be the inevitable ‘holding unit’. So it was off to Carberry, Manitoba, five or six days on a troop train, days spent seeing nothing but trees, frozen lakes, the occasional trace of habitation and the odd trappers cabin. At intervals on the journey across Canada, people were taken off the train suffering from Scarlet Fever. It was believed that this disease came from the troopships.
As we passed through Winnipeg on our journey, for the first time we were allowed off the train and as we went from the platform to the station concourse we were greeted with bands playing a huge welcome from the good people of Winnipeg. They had in Winnipeg the “Airmens Club” and an invitation to visit if there on leave. They
[page break]
had a wonderful system of people who would welcome RAF chaps into their homes for a few days or a weekend when on leave. This was to stand me in good stead as you will hear later.
Shortly after arrival at Carberry I fell victim to Scarlet Fever and spent five weeks in isolation hospital at Brandon after which I and a fellow sufferer by the name of Peter Caldwell had two weeks sick leave in Winnipeg and the Airmens Club arranged for us to stay with an English family. Wonderful hospitality. The Canadians were wonderful hosts to the Royal Air Force.
Carberry and Brandon were, of course, on the Canadian Prairies and whilst in hospital at Brandon, one night and day there was a terrible dust storm and despite the usual Canadian double glazing, everywhere inside the hospital was covered in black dust. This is probably of little interest but to me at the time was an amazing phenomenom.
Now it was back to reality and a posting to 31 Bombing & Gunnery School at Picton, Ontario. A two day journey by train around the North Shore of Lake Superior to Toronto and Belleville and then twenty plus miles down a dirt road to Picton. The airfield still exists, on high ground, overlooking the town on the shores of Lake Ontario. The bombing targets were moored out in the lake and air gunnery practice took place out over the lake.
The weather during this spell was very hot and flying was limited to a period from very early morning until midday. Canadian built Ansons were used for bombing practice and Bolingbrokes, which were Canadian built Blenheims, were used for air to air gunnery practice. The target drogues were towed by Lysanders.
Nothing outstanding took place at Picton except perhaps for our passing out party which we held in Belleville. In my case, being full of Canadian rye whisky of the
[page break]
bootleg variety I literally passed out and for many years afterwards could not even stand the smell of strong spirits.
Having recovered from the passing out the next stop was No. 33 Air Navigation School, RAF Mount Hope, Hamilton. Ontario. Mount Hope is now Hamilton Airport. Navigation training in Ansons was fairly uneventful and ended with us receiving our Sergeants stripes and the coveted “O” brevet. (Known to all as the flying arsehole) The “O” brevet was soon to be replaced with brevets more appropriate to the trade of the wearer, ie “B” for Airbombers, “N” for Navigators, etc. Next it was back to Moncton for the return to the UK.
The return voyage was on the ‘Mauritania’ where there were only 50 sergeant aircrew who were to act as guards on the ship which was transporting a large number of American troops. O/c. Troops on the ship was a Royal Air Force Squadron Leader. To our amazement when the Americans boarded the ship they had no idea where they were going. Most seemed to think they were going to Iceland and when we told them Liverpool was our destination they could not believe it. We were asked where we picked up the convoy and when we told them we did not go in convoy this caused a great deal of consternation. All the troopships going back and forth between the UK and North America were too fast to be in convoys and fast zig zag runs were made across the Atlantic. It was very long odds against the likelihood of encountering a U Boat..
Having safely arrived in Liverpool our next temporary home was yet another ‘holding unit’.
[page break]
Chapter III. Flying Training Command.
This time it was the Grand Hotel in Harrogate overlooking the famous Valley Gardens.
The RAF had taken over both the Grand and Majestic Hotels. Sadly the Grand has now gone. I rcall our CO at the Grand was Squadron Leader L E G Ames the England cricketer. Time at Harrogate awaiting posting was filled by swimming, drill, the usual time filling lectures, etc. We did, of course, get what was known as disembarkation leave. I went home and whilst there my granddad, with whom I had always had a very close relationship, took ill and died at the age of 85 and I was very grateful that I had been able to talk to him and to attend the funeral.
Christmas was spent at Harrogate, there being a ban on service travel during the Christmas period. On, I believe, Boxing Day, Maxie Booth and myself were in Harrogate, fed up and far from home, when we were approached by a chap who asked if we were doing anything that night, to which we replied “No”. He then said he was having a small party at home that night and had two Air Ministry girls billeted wit6h his family and would we like to join them. We readily accepted and when we arrived at the party we found that one of the girls was Maxie’s cousin. Small world! Still at Harrogate on my birthday 2 February, now at the ripe old age of 20. My room mates contrived to get me very drunk. I will spare you the details.
After a short time we were posted to Kirkham, Lancs to yet another holding unit, for a couple of weeks and then onward to Penrhos, North Wales, 9(O) Advanced Flying Unit for bombing practice. We were using Ansons and 10lb practice bombs. In Canada the Ansons had hydraulic undercarriages but at Penrhos they were Mk1 Ansons and it was the Bombaimers job to wind up the undercarriage by hand. A hell
[page break]
of a lot of turns on the handle – not much fun.
Next move was to Llandwrog, Nr. Caernarvon for the Navigation part of the Course. Same aircraft flying on exercises mainly over the Irish Sea, N. Ireland, Isle of Man, etc. Llandwrog is now Caernarvon airport with an interesting small museum. [handwritten in margin] museum since closed [handwritten in margin]. Llandwrog was unusual in that the airfield and our living site were below sea level, a dyke between us and the Irish Sea. Because of this there was no piped water or drainage on our site and it was necessary to carry a ‘small pack’ and do our ablutions at the main domestic site which was above sea level. I, and a pal or two went into Caernarvon for a weekend in the Prince of Wales Hotel to get a bit of a civilised existence for a change. However our stay at Llandwrog was quite brief.
The 1st. March 1944 was very significant in that it marked the move from Flying Training Command to Bomber Command. 83 Operational Training Unit at Peplow in Shropshire. Never heard of Peplow? Neither had I, it is a few miles North of Wellington. [handwritten in margin] Peplow was formerly Childs Ercall – renamed to avoid conflict with High Ercall airfield, nearby, I understood. [handwritten in margin] We arrived by train at Peplow, in the dark, station ‘lit’ by semi blacked out gas lamps. Arriving at Peplow were Pilots, Navigators, Bombaimers, Wireless Operators and Gunners from different training establishments.
Somehow, the next day, we sorted ourselves out into crews of six, Pilot, Nav, Bombaimer, W/Op and two gunners and were ready to start the business of Operational flying as a bomber crew.. We had never met each other before but were to spend the next few months living together, flying together and relying on each other, and developing a unique comradeship..
Peplow was notable for several things. From our living site, the nearest Pub was five miles in any direction. Having twice walked in different directions to prove the
[page break]
mileage we quickly acquired pushbikes. At that time there were no sign posts. One night doing ‘circuits and bumps’ in a Wellington we were in the ’funnel’ on the approach to the runway, skipper put the flaps down and the aircraft started to make a turn to port which he could not control. He ordered me to pull up the flaps and he then regained control. We then climbed to a respectable height and skip asked me to lower the flaps. The same thing happened again, an uncontrollable turn to port and quickly losing height. Flaps pulled up and normal service resumed. Skip then got permission from Air Traffic to make a flapless landing which he managed without running out of runway. We taxied back to dispersal and on inspection found that when the flaps were lowered only the port side flaps came down. Apparently a tie rod between port and starboard must have come apart. Could have been nasty!
On a lighter note, when cycling back to camp from Wellington one night I had a problem with the lights on my bike and was stopped by P.C Plod and booked for riding a bike without lights. Fined 10 shillings.
Another incident clearly imprinted on my mind was one day in class we were being given a lecture on the dinghy radio. I had heard all about the dinghy radio so many times I could almost recite it. I was sitting on the back row in class and I put my head back against the wall and must have dropped off. Suddenly a piece of chalk hit the wall at the side of my head. I awoke with a start and the guy giving the lecture (A Flying Officer) said, “I suppose Sergeant, you know all about dinghy radio”. To which I foolishly replied “Yes Sir”. He then said “In that case you can come out and continue the lecture”. Even more foolishly I did.
When finished I was asked to stay behind to receive an almighty bollocking for being a smartarse.
Finally whilst at Peplow a young lady I met in Wellington gave me a red scarf for
[page break]
luck and after that my crew would never let me fly without it.
We were now getting down to the serious business of preparing for actual operations and on the 24.5.44 we were despatched on an actual operation which was known as a ‘nickel’ raid, leaflet dropping over France, a place called ‘Criel’. 4 hours 35 minutes airborne in a Wellington bomber.
[Where is chapter IV?]
Chapter V. No. 1 Group Bomber Command.
On the 26th. June we were on the move again, ever nearer to being on an operational Squadron in Bomber Command. This was to 1667 Conversion Unit at Sandtoft where we were to convert to four engine aircraft ‘Halifaxes’. These were Halifax II & V which were underpowered and notoriously unreliable and had been withdrawn from front line service. In fact Sandtoft was affectionately known as ‘Prangtoft’ because of the large number of flying accidents. One of my pals from Harrogate days, Harry Fryer, got the chop in a Halifax that crashed near Crowle.
So that I do not give any wrong ideas, let me say, the Halifax III with radial engines was a superb aircraft and equipped No. 4 Goup.
It was here at Sandtoft that we acquired the seventh member of our crew, a Flight Engineer, straight from RAF St. Athan and never having been airborne.
We obviously survived ‘Prangtoft’ and then moved on the 22 July to LFS (Lancaster Finishing School) at Hemswell, which supplied crews to No. 1 Group, Bomber Command, which was the largest main force group flying Lancasters. We were only two weeks at Hemswell, the sole object being to familiaise[sic] with the
[page break]
Queen of the skies, the LANCASTER. A beautiful aeroplane, very reliable, able to fly easily with two dead engines on one side, and to withstand considerable battle damage and still remain airborne.
Chapter VI. The Tour of Operations. 103 Squadron.
Now for the real thing. On the 10th August we joined 103 Squadron at Elsham Wolds, in North Lincolnshire.
At this point I should like to introduce our crew:
P/O George Knott. Pilot & Skipper.
F/Sgt. Ron Archer. Navigator.
F/Sgt. Bill Bailey. Bombaimer.
F/Sgt. Gus Leigh. Wireless Opeator.
F/Sgt. Wally Williams. Flight Engineer.
F/Sgt. Jock Greig. Midupper Gunner.
F/Sgt. Paddy Anderson. Rear Gunner.
After a bit more training we eventually embarked on our first operation on the 29th,. August. I now propose to go through our complete tour of Operations as recorded in my flying log book and other documents.
Before doing that perhaps I should give an insight into Squadron procedure. We were accommodated in nissen huts on dispersed sites in the vicinity of the airfield, two Crews to a hut. The huts were sleeping quarters only and were heated by a solid fuel stove in the centre. Bloody cold in the bleak Lincolnshire winter. The messes were on the main domestic site. Every morning (provided there was no call out in the night)
[page break]
it was to the mess for breakfast, check if there was an Order of Battle and if you were on it. If not, we made our way to the flight offices and section leaders. I would go to the Bombing Leader’s office where we would review the previous operation and look at target photographs. Releasing the bombs over the target also activated a camera which took line overlap pictures from the release point to impact on the ground.. We would then return to the mess to await the next orders or perhaps take an aircraft on air test, although after ‘D’ day this practice was discontinued because the aircraft were kept bombed up in a state readiness. Temporarily at least Bomber Command was being used in a close support role to assist the Armies in France.
When a Battle Order was issued, the nominated crews assembled in the briefing room at the appointed time and when everyone was present the doors were closed and guarded. On a large wall map of Europe in front of us was a red tape snaking across the map from Base to the designated target. The length of the tape dictated the reaction of the assembled company.
Pilots, Navigators and Bombaimers did their pre-flight planning prepared maps and charts ready to go. Each crew member received a small white bag into which he emptied his pockets of everything. The seven bags were then put into one larger bag and handed to the intelligence office until our return. We, in turn, were given our ‘escape kits’ and flying rations. The escape kit was for use in the event of being shot down and trying to evade capture and return to England. We also carried passport size photographs which might enable resistance workers in occupied countries to get us fake identity documents. Phrase cards, compass, maps and currency notes were also included. The flying rations issued were mainly chocolate bars (very valuable at that time) also ‘wakey wakey pills’, caffeine tablets to be taken on the skipper’s orders. All ready to go. Collect parachutes, get into the crew buses and be ferried out to the
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Dispersals A visual check round the aircraft and then climb aboard. Start engines when ordered, close bomb doors, complete preflight checks and taxi to the end of the runway. The airfield controller’s cabin was located at the side of the runway and on a green lamp from him, open the throttles and roll. We were on our way. The Lancaster had an all up weight for take-off of 66000 lbs and needed the full runway, into wind, for a safe take-off. The maximum bomb load on a standard Lancaster was 7 tons but operating at maximum range the bomb load would be reduced to about 5 tons to accommodate a maximum fuel load.
On return from operations, after landing and returning to dispersal, shut down engines, climb down and await transport back to the briefing room for interrogation by intelligence officers. Hot drinks and tot of rum available and back to the mess for the customary egg, bacon and chips..
At this time were confined to camp because of the possibility of being of being[sic] called for short notice operations.
THE TOUR OF OPERATIONS.
No. 1 29.8.44 Target – STETTIN.
Checked Battle Order to find our crew allocated to PM-N.
Briefing for night attack on the Baltic Port of Stettin. Bomb load mainly incendieries.[sic] The route took us across the North Sea, over Northern Denmark, S.W. Sweden and then due South into the target, bomb and turn West to cross Denmark and the North Sea back to base. The force consisted of 402 Lancasters and 1 Mosquito of 1,3,6,& 8 Groups. It was a very successful attack and 23 Lancasters were lost. We suffered no damage from anti-aircraft fire and saw no fighters. Whilst crossing Sweden there was
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a certain amount of what was called friendly flak, shells bursting at about 10,000 ft whilst we were flying at 18000 ft
This was my first sight of a target and something I shall never forget, smoke, flames, bombbursts, searchlights, anti-aircraft fire. It was also very tiring having been airborne for 9 hours 25 minutes and flown some 2000 miles.
Used full quota of ‘wakey wakey’ pills.
No. 2. 31.8.44. Target .Flying Bomb launch site. AGENVILLE France.
Daylight attack, Master Bomber controlled This was one of several targets to be attacked in Northern France. Seemed like a piece of cake after the long trip to Stettin. Not so! We were briefed to bomb from 10,000 ft on the Master Bomber’s instructions. On approaching the target area there was 10/10 cloud and the call from the Master Bomber went like this: “Main Force – descent to 8,000ft and bomb on red TI’s (Target indicators). – no opposition” We descended to 8,000ft and immediately we broke cloud there were shells bursting around us, Fortunately dead ahead was the target and I called for bomb doors open and started the bombing run.. At the appropriate point I pressed the bomb release and nothing happened. A quick look revealed no lights on the bombing panel. Whilst I was checking the main fuse the rear gunner was calling “We are on fire Skip – there is smoke streaming past me” The ‘smoke’ proved to be hydraulic fluid which was vaporising. We climbed back into cloud and assessed the situation. Whilst in cloud we experienced severe icing and with the pitot head frozen we lost instruments which meant skip had no way of knowing the attitude[?] of the aircraft and for the one and only time in my flying career, we were ordered to prepare to abandon aircraft and I put on my parachute pack. However we emerged from cloud and normal service was resumed. We had no
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electrics, no hydraulics, bomb doors open and a full load of bombs still on board Skip decided to head for base via a North Sea designated dropping zone where I could jettison the bombs safely. This was accompanied by going back along the fuselage and using a highly technical piece of kit, a piece of wire with a hook on the end, pushing it down through a hole about each bomb carrier and tripping the release mechanism.
Having got rid of the bombs it was back to base, crossing the coast at a spot where we should not have been and risking being shot at by friendly Ack Ack gunners. We arrived back at base some one and a half hours late. Now for the tricky bit. The undercarriage, in the absence of hydraulic fluid, had to be blown down by compressed air. This was an emergency procedure and could only be tried once, a now or never situation. Now we have to make a flapless landing and hope that the landing gear is locked down and does not collapse when we land. Not being able to use flaps means the landing speed is greater than normal and then we have no brakes. Skip made a super landing but once on the runway could only throttle back and wait for the aircraft to roll to a stop. This it did right at the end of the runway.
On inspection after return to dispersal it appeared that a shell or shells had burst very near to the bomb bay and shrapnel had severed hydraulic pipes and electric cables in the bomb bay. I should think we were very close to having been blown to bits. This trip was a little bit sobering to say the least. The aircraft resembled a pepper pot but luckily no one was injured.
No. 3 3.9.44 Target Eindhoven Airfield, Holland. Daylight Operation.
Allocated to PM-X (N having been severely damaged on our last sortie)
A straight forward attack on the airfield, one of six airfields in Southern Holland
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attacked by.675 aircraft a mixture of 348 Lancasters and 315 Halifaxes and 12 Mosquitoes, all very successful raids and only one Halifax lost.
This was my first experience of the ‘Oboe’ target marking system now used by Pathfinders flying Mosquitoes.. A very accurate system – the markers were right in the middle of the runway intersections. Very impressive.
No.4 5.9.44. Target – Defensive positions around LE HAVRE.
Aircraft allocated PM-W. Bomb load 15,000 lbs High Explosives. Daylight operation.
This attack was in support of Canadian troops who were demanding the surrender of the German garrison. The first phase of Lancasters orbited the target awaiting the outcome. This was negative and the attack took place. In clear visibility our riming point was 2000 yards in front of the Canadian troops and the area around the aiming point was completely destroyed.
No.5 10.9.44 Target – LE HAVRE again. Daylight operation.
Aircraft allocated PM-E Bomb load 15000 lbs High Explosive. Daylight operation. 992 aircraft attacked 8 difference German strongpoints only yards in front of Canadian troops. All were bombed accurately. No aircraft were lost.
No.6 12.9.44. Target FRANKFURT. Night operation.
Aircraft allocated PM-G. Bomb load 1 x 4000lb Cookie plus incendiaries.
This was an unusual operation in that we were one of several crews who were briefed to bomb 5 minutes ahead of main force, identifying the aiming point ourselves. The
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object was to occupy the defences whilst the pathfinders went in low to mark the aiming point for main force. Our route to target took us South into France, near Strasbourg and then a turn North East towards Frankfurt. Our navigator Ron at some point realised we were well off track because he was getting wrong positions due to distortion of the ‘Gee chain’, wither by jamming or almost out of range.
As well as being bombaimer I was also the H2S radar operator and so I switched this on to try to verify our position I managed to identify Mannheim on the screen and was then able, with Ron, to fix a course to the target. As we approached the target there were hundreds of searchlights but instead of combing the sky they were laid along the ground in the direction of our track. It took a few minutes to realise that what they were doing was putting a carpet of light on the ground so that any fighters above us would have us silhouetted against the light. Gunners be extra vigilant! I dropped the bombs and we headed for base without incident. Intelligence reports said it was a very successful attack.
No. 7 17.9.44 Target Ammunition Dump at THE HAGUE, Holland Daylight.
Aircraft allocated PM-B, Bomb load 15000lbs Gen. Purpose bombs.
This attack by 27 Lancasters of 103 Squadron only and was carried out without loss.
No. 8 24.9.44. Target CALAIS. Close support for the Army. Daylight.
Allocated aircraft PM-B Bomb load 15000 lbs GP Bombs.
103 & 576 Squadrons were chosen to attack this target, gun emplacements, at low level (2000 ft) in the interests of accuracy. The weather was atrocious, almost as soon as we got off the runway we were in cloud. However we set course for Calais flying
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at around 1000 ft so as to keep the ground in view. As we approached the Channel the cloud lifted a bit and we were able to climb to 2000 ft but as we approached the target the cloud base lowered again and we had to descend again to 1000 ft for the bombing run. A we approached the aiming point, I was lying in the nose and could see everything on the ground. And being in the best position to see what was going on. could see where I thought the worst of the anti-aircraft fire, and indeed small arms fire was coming from.. I therefore ‘suggested’ to skip that when I say “bombs gone” you put her over hard to port and get down on the deck. Bugger the target photograph, we’ll have a picture of the sky! George did this and where we would have been if we had gone straight on whilst the camera operated, were shell bursts. We got out of that unscathed. Of the 27 aircraft that started that attack, one was lost, 8 landed away with various degrees of battle damage and of the remainder only 3 aircraft returned to base undamaged. “B” was one of them. As Ron recorded in his notes “Oppositions – everything”.
No. 9 26.9.44. Target Gunsites at Cap Gris Nez Daylight.
Allocated aircraft PM-B Bomb load 15000 lbs GP Bombs.
This was a highly concentrated and successful attack with very little opposition. Obtained a very good aiming point photograph.
No. 10 27,9,44.
We were briefed to bomb in the Calais area again on 27th. Sept but this operation was aborted due to the bombsight being unserviceable.
This ended our operational career at 103 Squadron. Only two of our operations had been at night.
Ourselves and one other crew from ‘A’ flight were transferred to 166 Squadron at
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Kirmington, one of the three stations forming 13 Base, to form a new ‘A’ flight at 166.Squadron.
As a matter of interest, Kirmington is now South Humberside Airport. Before moving on to the next phase I should explain that operational aircrew were given six days leave every six weeks which will explain some of the gaps in the story.
Chapter VII. The Tour of Operations. 166 Squadron.
166 Squadron, Kirmington, Lincs.
When we arrived at Kirmington we were allocated a hut on a dispersed site in Brocklesby Wood, about as far as could be from the airfield. Primitive living arrangements, but not too far from the Sergeants Mess.
By now we were no longer confined to camp and “liberty buses” were run from camp to Grimsby and Scunthorpe. Most of us used to go to ‘Sunny Scunny’ where there was a cinema two well known pubs, The Bluebell and The Oswald, the latter became known as 1 Group Headquarters. This establishment had a large function room with a
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minutes after other aircraft had set course. We took part on second aiming point and catching up 20 minutes on round trip landed No.3 back at base.
No. 14 28.10.44 Target COLOGNE
Allocated aircraft AS-D Bomb Load 1 x 4000 lb Cookie plus incendiaries.
Daylight operation. 733 aircraft despatched to devastate residential areas in NW of the City There was heavy flak opposition and our aircraft suffered some minor damage A piece of shrapnel came through the Perspex dome in front of me whilst I was crouched over the bombsight It hit me on the shoulder on my parachute harness but did me no harm.
This was a very good operation as ordered.
No. 15 29.10.44. Target Gunsites at DOMBURG. Walcheren Island, Holland. Allocated aircraft AS-M Bomb Load 15000 lbs HE. Daylight attack. 6 aircraft from 166 squadron together with 19 others attacked 4 aiming points. All were accurately bombed. There was no opposition.
No. 16 30.10.44. Target COLOGNE, Night operation.
Allocated aircraft AS-K Bomb Load 1x4000lb Cookie plus 9000 lbs HE.
No. 1 Group was assigned to attack aiming point which was not successfully attacked on 28th. October. Over the target there was clear visibility, moderate flak opposition. This was considered to have been a very good attack.
It was on this operation, whilst we were on the bombing run an aircraft exploded ahead of us. At least I believe it was an aircraft although the Germans used a device which we called a “scarecrow”. This was a pyrotechnic device which exploded to
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simulate an exploding aircraft. Presumable meant to put the frighteners on us!
On the 31,.10.44 we were again briefed to attack Cologne but having climbed to operating height a crew check by the Skipper revealed that Paddy our rear gunner was unconscious in his turret. Gus, wireless op went back and pulled him from the turret and onto the rest bed in the centre of the aircraft. He fitted him up with a portable oxygen bottle and skip made the decision to abort and return to base where an ambulance was waiting to whisk paddy[sic] off to sick bay. Apparently the problem had been a trapped oxygen pipe in the turret. We had been airborne for 2hrs 15 mins.
To depart for the moment from the tour of operations, it was about this time when I developed at[sic] rash on my face which turned to a weeping eczema which meant that I could not shave and I had to report sick. The Doc took a look and said, “OK You’re grounded”. I replied “You can’t do that Doc, my crew will have to take a spare bombaimer and I shall have to complete my tour with other crews”. After pleading my case Doc agreed to allow me to continue flying provided each time before flying I reported to Sick Quarters and had a dressing put on my face so that I could wear my oxygen mask. The Doc was treating me with various creams which had little or no effect until one day the WAAF medical orderly who applied the treatment said to the Doc “Why don’t we try a starch poultice”. The Doc suggested that was an old wives remedy. However as nothing else had worked he agreed to let the Waaf[sic] give it a try. I know not where this young lady learned her skills because I gathered she was a hairdresser in civvie street, in Leicester, my home town. She applied the said poultice and the next day I reported back to sick quarters where she removed the poultice and whatever was clinging to it. I went back to our hut and very carefully shaved. The starch poultice had done the trick. I thought frostbite had probably caused the
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problem in the first place but I was to learn some months later the real cause which I shall reveal later in the story.
No. 17. 2.11.44. Target DUSSELDORF. Night operation.
Aircraft allocated AS-C. Bomb load 1 x 4000lb Cookie and 9000 lbs HE.
“C” Charlie was now to become our regular aircraft, for which we developed a great affection and a very special relationship with the ground crew.
992 aircraft attacked Dusseldorf of which 11 Halifaxes and 8 Lancasters were lost. It was a very heavy and concentrated attack with extensive damage and loss of life. This was the last major Bomber Command raid of the war on Dusseldorf.
At about his [this] time friendships were struck up. In my case I was returning from leave and whilst waiting for my train at Lincoln Station to Barnetby (where I had left my bike) I met a Waaf, also returning from leave and who was, surprise, surprise stationed at Kirmington. I asked how she was getting from Barnetby to Kirmington and she said she was walking. No prizes for guessing that she got back to Kirmington on the crossbar of my bike. (No it was not a ladies bike). We became good friends and she along with others, would be standing alongside the airfield controllers cabin at the end of the runway to wave us off on operations.
Also at about his [this] time George and Gus acquired friends from the Waaf personnel, one of whom was a telephonist and the other a R/T operator in the control tower. When returning from operations George would call up base as soon as he was able, to get instructions to join the circuit. First to call would get the 1000’ slot and first to land. The procedure then was to make a circuit of the airfield around the ‘drem’ system of lights, report on the downwind leg and again when turning into the funnels on the
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approach to the runway. We would then be given the OK to land or if there was a runway obstruction, go round again. I understand that word was passed to those who wished to know that “Knott’s crew were in the circuit.”
No. 18. 4.11.44. Target BOCHUM. Night operation.
“C” Charlie. Bomb load. 1 x 4000lb Cookie plus 9000lbs HE.
749 aircraft attacked this target. Unusually Halifaxes of 4 Group slightly out numbered Lancasters. 23 Halifaxes and 5 Lancasters were lost. No. 346 (Free French) Squadron, based at Elvington, lost 5 out of its 16 Halifaxes on the raid. Severe damage was caused to the centre of Bochum, particularly the important steelworks.
This was the last major raid by Bomber Command on this target
It was about at this on return from an operation, I felt the need of a stimulant and so, instead of giving my tot of rum to Jock, I put it into my ovaltine, which curdled and I ended up with something resembling soup and a chastising from Jock for wasting ‘valuable rum’.
No. 19. 11.11.44. Target DORTMUND Oil Plant. Night operation.
“C” Charlie. Bomb load, 1 x 4000lb Cookie plus 9000lb HE.
.209 Lancasters, all 1 Group, plus 19 Mosquitoes from 8 Group (Pathfinders) attacked this target. The aiming point was a synthetic oil plant. A local report confirmed that the plant was severely damaged. No aircraft were lost.
No. 20 21.11.44. Minelaying Operations in OSLO FJORD Norway.
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Aircraft AS-E. Bomb load 6 x 1800 lb Accoustic[sic] and Magnetic Mines.
Six Lancasters from 166 Squadron and 6 from 103 Squadron detailed to plant ‘vegetables’ in Oslo Fjord. AS-E to mine a channel half a mile wide, between an island and the mainland. This was to catch U Boats based in the harbour at MANNS. The attack was carried out at low level and required a very accurate bombing run.. It was a major sin to drop mines on land as they were classified Secret This was a highly successful operation with no opposition and no aircraft lost. Time airborne 6hrs 45mins
No. 21. 27.11.44. Target “FREIBURG” S.W. Germany. Night operation.
“C” Charlie. Bomb load 1 x 4000lb Cookie plus incendiaries.
Freiburg was not an industrial town and had not been bombed by the RAF before. However. No. 1 Group 341 Lancasters, which was maximum effort for the Group, plus 10 Mosquitoes from 8 Group, were called upon to support the French Army in the Strasbourg sector. It is believed the Freiburg was full of German troops. The target was accurately marked using the ‘OBOE’ technique from caravans based in France. 1900 tons of bombs were dropped on the target from 12000 ft in the space of 25 minutes. Casualties on the ground were extremely high. There was little opposition and only one aircraft was lost…
On this operation we carried a second pilot as a prelude to his first operation. He Was Charles Martin, a New Zealander and he and his crew were to claim “C” Charlie as their own when Knott’s crew had finished their tour. Martin’s wireless operator was Jim Wright, who now runs 166 Squadron Association and is the author of “On Wings of War”, the history of 166 Squadron.
This crew completed their tour on “C” Charlie and the aircraft survived the war.
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No. 22. 29.11.44. Target DORTMUND. Daylight operation,
“C” Charlie. 1 x 4000lb Cookie plus 9000 lbs HE.
This was no ordinary operation, 294 Lancasters from 1 Group plus the usual quota of Mosquitoes from 8 Group. At briefing we were told that as Bomber Command had been venturing into Germany and particularly Happy Valley in daylight, and, unlike the Americans, had not been attacked by large numbers of fighters, there was concern that because of our techniques in Bomber Command, each aircraft making its own way to the target in the Bomber stream, we might be very vulnerable to fighter attack. We could not possibly adopt the American system of flying in mass formations and do some boffin somewhere had come up with the ‘brilliant’ idea that we should indulge in gaggle flying. No practice, mind, just – this what you do chaps – get on with it.. The idea was that 3 Lancasters would have their tail fins painted bright yellow and would be the leading ‘Vic’ formation. All other aircraft would take off, find another squadron aircraft and formate on it. Each pair would then pack in together behind the leading ‘vic’ and the lead Navigator would do the navigating with the rest of the force following. The route on the flight plan took us across Belgium crossed the Rhine between Duisburg and Dusseldorf then passing Wuppertal and North East into the target area. All went well until we were approaching the Rhine when the lead navigator realised we were two minutes early. It was important not to be early or we would arrive on target before the pathfinders had done their job. The technique for losing two minutes was to do a two minute ‘dog-leg’. When ordered by the lead nav, this involved doing a 45 degrees starboard turn, two minutes flying, 90 degree port turn, 2 minutes flying, 45 degree starboard turn and we were then back on track.
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Unfortunately the apex of the dog-leg took us directly over Dusseldorf, a town which was very heavily defended. All the flak in the world came up, especially among the three lead aircraft and suddenly there were Lancs going in all directions. I actually saw a collision between two aircraft which both spiralled earthwards. Once clear of this shambles we found we were now in the lead and so we continued to the target and there being no markers down, apparently due to bad weather, I followed standard instructions and bombed what I could see. We had suffered slight flak damage but nothing to affect “C” Charlies[sic] flying capabilities and we arrived back at base 5 hours 35 mins after take-off. Six Lancasters were lost.
This was our one and only experience of ‘gaggle flying’.
No. 23. 4.12.44. Target KARLSRUHE. Night operation.
“C” Charlie. Bomb load 1 x 4000lb Cookie plus incendiaries.
The railway marshalling yards were attacked by 535 aircraft. Marking and bombing were accurate and severe damage was caused. A machine tool factory was also destroyed. 1 Lancaster and 1 Mosquito were lost.
No. 24. 6.12.44. Target Synthetic Oil Plants “MERSEBERG LEUNA” Nr. Leipzig.
“C” Charlie. Bomb load 1 x 4000 lb Cookie 6000 lbs mixed HE.
475 Lancasters and 12 Mosquitoes were called upon to destroy Germany’s largest synthetic oil plant following numerous ineffective raids by the U.S. Air Force. This was the first major attack on an oil target in Eastern Germany and was some 500 miles from the bomber bases in England. “C” Charlie and crew were detailed to support pathfinder force (We were now considered to be an experienced crew). This meant we were to attack six minutes before main force. Weather conditions were
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very poor and marking was scarce and it was thought the attack was not very effective. However, post raid photographs showed that considerable damage had been caused to the synthetic oil plant and it was later revealed that the plant manager reported that the attack put the plant out of action and the second attack on 14.1.45 was not really necessary. 5 Lancasters were lost.
No.25. 12.12.44. Target ESSEN. Night attack.
“C” Charlie. Bomb load 1 x 4000lb Cookie 10000 lbs HE bombs.
This was the last heavy night raid on Essen by 540 aircraft of Bomber Command. Even the Germans paid tribute to the accuracy of the bomb pattern on this raid which was thanks to “OBOE” marking by pathfinder Mosquitoes.
6 Lancasters lost.
No. 26. 13.12.44. Target Seamining [?] KATTEGAT. Night operation.
“C” Charlie. Bomb load. 6 x 1800 lbs mines.
6 aircraft from 166 Squadron and 6 from 103 Squadron were detailed to lay mines in the Kattegat. This force took off in poor visibility but over the dropping zone the weather was good. On this occasion the mines were to be dropped using the blind bombing technique. I was to use the H2S radar which was a ground mapping radar. The dropping point was a bearing and distance from an identifiable point on the coast which gave a good return on the radar. On reaching the dropping point the pilot had to steer a pre-determined course and I had to release the mines at say, one minute intervals. The H2S screen was photographed so that the intelligence bods back at base could check that the mi8nes had been put down in the right place. In this case – spot on!! We then received a signal from base informing that the weather had
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clamped and we were diverted to Lossiemouth. We landed at Lossie having been airborne for 5 hrs 45 mins. At Lossie we were given beds and of course food, with the intention of returning to Kirmington the following morning.
The next morning we were given the Ok to return to Kirmington and went out to the aircraft. One engine failed to start and a faulty starter motor was diagnosed. A replacement was to be flown up from Kirmington. There we were dressed in flying kit with no money or toilet requisites and not knowing when the aircraft would be serviceable It certainly would not be today. We managed to secure a bit of cash from accounts and towels, etc from stores. That night Jock and I decided to go out on the town breaking all the rules about being out in public improperly dressed. However we got away with it. On the 17yth. “C” Charlie was serviceable and we were permitted to return to Kirmington. When we joined the circuit we could see Flying Fortresses on our dispersals having been diverted in the day before. The weather was certainly bad in the winter of 44/45.. The Americans crews allowed us to look over their Fortresses and we in turn invited them to look at our Lancaster. Their main interest centred on the Lancaster’s enormous bomb bay compared with their own.
21/12/44/ Seamining BALTIC Night operation.
Aircraft AS-H. Bomb load. 5 x 1800 lb mines.
This operation was aborted shortly after take-off due to the unserviceability of the H2S which was essential for the accurate laying of the mines. The visibility at base was very poor and we were given permission for one attempt at landing and if unsuccessful we were to divert to Carnaby in Yorkshire which was one of three diversion airfields with very long runways and overshoot facilities. We therefore
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jettisoned fuel to reduce the landing weight and made the approach. The airfield controller was firing white Very lights into the air over the end of the runway to guide us. We crept in over trees in Brocklesby Wood, trees which had claimed other Lancasters coming in too low, and made a perfect wheeled landing. It does not bear thinking about what would have happened if the undercarriage had collapsed, we were sitting on top of 9000 lbs of High Explosive. Good work skipper! Did not count as an operation.
The Squadron had a stand down at Christmas and on Christmas Day there was much merriment and a fair amount of booze put away and we went to bed a bit the worse for wear. It was therefore a bit upsetting to be got out of bed at 3am on Boxing Day morning, sent for an Ops meal and told to report for briefing at some unearthly hour. So to operation No. 27.
No. 27.. 26.12.44. Target “ST-VITH” Daylight operation.
Aircraft ‘B’. Bomb load 1 x 4000lb Cookie and 10000lbs HE.
“The Battle of the Bulge”, the German offensive in the Ardennes was in progress. A large force from Bomber Command was called upon to support the American 1st. Army trying to stem the German advances in the Ardennes. The attack was concentrated on the town of St. Vith where the Germans were unloading panzers to join the battle.
The whole of Lincolnshire was blanketed in fog with ground visibility of only a few yards. After briefing we went out to the aircraft, climbed aboard and waited for the time to start engines. Just before time there were white Very Cartridges fired from the
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control tower which indicated the operation was scrubbed. We returned to the mess and were given a new time to go out to the aircraft. Another flying meal.
We went out to the aircraft again and had a repeat performance. Third time lucky, we sat in the aircraft and although there was still dense fog, time came to start engines. This time no scrub. A marshall appeared in front of the aircraft with tow torches signalling us to start taxying and we were guided to the end of the runway. A glimmer of a green from the airfield controller and we turned onto the runway, lined up, set the gyro compass and we roared off down the runway at 1.15pm. Airborne and climbing we came out of the fog at about 200 ft and it was just like flying above cloud. We set course according to our flight plan and visibility across France and Belgium was first class. No cloud and snow on the ground. We did not really need navigation aids, I was able to map read all the way to the target. Approaching the target area there were a few anti aircraft shell bursts and it was apparent the Germans had advanced quite a long way. We bombed from 10000ft and the bombing was very concentrated and accurate. In fact it was reported that 80% of the attacking aircraft obtained aiming point photographs.
It was now time to concern ourselves with the return to Kirmington. The fog was still there and the only 1 Group airfield open was Binbrook, high up on the Lincolnshire Wolds, which stuck out of the fog like an island. The whole of 1 Group landed at Binbrook. There were Lancasters parked everywhere. Whilst we were in the circuit awaiting our turn to land, I was looking out of the window and noticed a hole in the wing between the two starboard engines. When we had landed and shut down the engines, we went to look at the hole. On top of the wing it was very neat but on the underside there was jagged aluminium hanging down around the hole. Obviously a shell had gone up and passed through the wing on its way down, without exploding.
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An airframe fitter looked at the damage and said the aircraft was grounded. This meant that after interrogation we were allowed to return to Kirmington by bus and proceed on leave.
Our next operation was not until 5.1.45 but some of us returned early from leave to attend a New Year party in the WAAF mess which was actually situated in Kirmington Village.
No.28. 5.1.45. Target HANOVER Night operation.
“C” Charlie. Bomb load. 1 x 4000lb Cookie plus incendiaries.
325 Aircraft of Nos. 1 and 5 Groups were briefed for the second of a two pronged attack on Hanover.
Nos. 4 and 6 Groups had bombed the target two hours earlier with bomb loads of mainly incendiaries. When we crossed the Dutch coast, the fires could be seem[sic] from at least 100 miles away. Our track took us towards Bremen and was meant to mislead the enemy into believing that was our target. However we did a starboard turn short of Bremen and ran into Hanover from the North. The target was well bombed and rail yards put out of action. I don’t know what we did right but “C” Charlie arrived back at base 4 minutes before anyone else.
No. 29. 6.1.45. Seamining. STETTIN Bay. Night operation.
Aircraft AS-D. Bomb Load 6 x 1500lb Mines.
Knott and crew started their third and final gardening trip (As seamining was known) 48 aircraft of Bomber Command were detailed to plant ‘vegetables’ in the entrance to Stettin Harbour and other local areas. The enemy was able to pick up the force 100 miles North East of Cromer because bad weather condition forced us to fly at 15000
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ft to the target instead of the usual 2000ft,. As a result of this early warning enemy fighters were waiting and the target area was well illuminated by fighter flares. It was believed that the enemy thought this was a major attack on Berlin developing. Knott and crew dropped their vegetables in the allotted area, securing a good H2S photograph and again returned to base first.
No. 30. 14.1.45. Target MERSEBERG LEUNA (Again) Night operation.
“C” Charlie. Bomb load 1 x 4000 lb Cookie plus 5500 lbs HE.
200 Aircraft attacked this target to finish off the job started on 6th December. A very successful attack.
No. 31. 16.1.45. Target Oil refinery ZEITZ Nr. Leipzig.
“C” Charlie. Bomb load 1 x 4000lb Cookie plus 6000 lbs GP Bombs.
This was the one we had been waiting for, our last operation. We went into briefing and were told by the intelligence officer that although we were being briefed the operation might be cancelled because a large force of Amercan[sic] Fortresses and Liberators had been to the target earlier in the day and a photo recce Mosquito had gone out to photograph the target and assess the results. Before the end of briefing it was confirmed that that[sic] the Americans had missed and our operation was on. At 1720 on the 16th January we took off on this operation. Over the target there were hundreds of searchlights, the markers were in the right place and we completed our bombing run. The target was well ablaze and there were massive explosions. At one point Paddy called out “We’re coned skip” meaning we were caught by searchlights.
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It was briefly very light in the cabin but the light was caused, not by searchlights but by the explosions from the target.
Of the 328 Lancasters that attacked the target, 10 were lost.
When we returned to base all of our ground crew, including one guy who had returned early from leave, were there to welcome us and join in a little celebration.
George Knott was awarded an immediate Distinguished Flying Cross, said to be a crew award for completing a tour of operations.
All seven of us were posted from Kirmington, on indefinite leave to await our next assignments.
Apart from activities in the Officers and Sergeants Messes, and trips into Scunthorpe where the “Oswald” was the central drinking point, the main point of activity was the pub in Kirmington village. The “Marrow Bone & Cleaver” or the “Chopper” as it was known, was the meeting place for all ranks. The pub is now a shrine to the Squadron, there is a memorial in the village, lovingly cared for by the villagers’ and memorial plaques in the terminal building at Humberside Airport.
There is also a stained glass window in Kirmington Church.
I have mentioned our off base activities but, of course, a lot of time was spent in the Mess and the radio was our main contact with the outside world. I think the most popular program was the AFN (American Forces Network). They had a program which I believe was called the “dufflebag program”. Glen Miller and all the big [inserted in margin] this sentence needs a verb! [/inserted in margin] bands of the day. The song “I’ll walk alone” was very popular and was recorded by several singers. The British one was Anne Shelton, an American whose name escapes me and another American called Lily Ann Carroll (Not sure about the spelling of that name). This girl had a peculiar voice but it had something about it.
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Since the war I have not been able to find anyone who ever heard of her but I did hear the record placed on one of the archives programs on BBC, two or three years ago. If anyone knows of Lily Ann Carroll I would love to know.
I can’t remember where it was but on one occasion when we were out together as a crew, someone asked what the “B” meant on my brevet. Quick as a flash Paddy jumped in “It means Big Bill Bailey the bastard Bombaimer”.
The completion of our tour of operations was of special relief to Gus Leigh, our wireless operator who incidentally had a few weeks earlier had[sic] been commissioned as Pilot Officer. Gus was married and his wife Enid was pregnant and lived in Kent. George our skipper had relatives who lived near Thorne which was quite near to Sandtoft and not really too far from Elsham and Kirmington so it was arranged that Enid would come to stay with George’s relatives and Gus would be able to see her fairly regularly. As we approached the end of our tour you can appreciate the tension. I was to hear later that after we had left Kirmington, Enid had a son and then suffered a massive haemorrhage and died. What irony, a baby that so easily could have been fatherless was now motherless.
Before leaving the scene of operations, so to speak, I would like to clear up one or two points.
I have often been asked the question, were you frightened? I can only speak for myself and maybe my crew. I don’t think ‘frightened’ was the right word, apprehensive, maybe but except for a very few, I believe all aircrew believed in their own immortality. It was always going to be the other guy who got the chop, never yourself. Had this not been the case then we would never have got into a Lancaster.
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Ron Archer used to tell me he thought we were the luckiest crew in Bomber Command.
There were, of course, a very few aircrew who lost their nerve and refused to fly. All aircrew were volunteers and could not be compelled to fly but if that became the case then they would be sent LMF (Lack of moral fibre) and would lose their flying badge and be reduced to the ranks.
Much has been said and written in recent years about the activities of Bomber Command and in particular our Commander in Chief, “Bomber” Harris. I believed then, and still believe that what was done was right. I did not bomb Dresden, but had I been ordered to do so, I would not have given it a second thought.
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Chapter VIII. Lossiemouth.
I was at home in Wigston, Leicestershire and my 21st birthday, the 2nd February was fast approaching. Parents and friends were trying to organise a party, meagre rations, permitting. They need not have worried because I received instructions to proceed immediately to 20 OUT Lossiemouth, At 9.30 pm the eve of my birthday I caught a train from South Wigston station to Rugby and then onto a train bound for Scotland. I arrived at Lossiemouth at 11pm and following day. What a way to spend a 21st birthday!
The next day having completed arrival procedures I duly reported to the Bombing Leader for duty. At the same time I discovered that George Knott had also been posted to Lossiemouth as a screened pilot. I flew with him ocassionally[sic] when he needed some ballast in the rear turret when doing an air test.
The role of 20 OUT was to train Free French Aircrew, again flying Wellingtons and my job was to fly with them on bombing exercises to check that they were using correct procedures. I used to say, “Patter in English please”, which was alright until they got a bit excited and lapsed into French. Bombing took place on Kingston Bombing Range, on the coast East of Lossiemouth. One of my other jobs was to plot the bombs on a chart using co-ordinates given by observers at quadrant points on the
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range. These were phoned through to the bomb plotting office. The student bombaimer then came to the office to see the results of his aiming efforts. 10 lb smoke bo9mbs were used for daylight bombing and 10 lb flash bombs for night bombing. In the summer at Lossie, night flying was almost impossible due to the short night in those Northern parts. It was quite common to take off after sunset and then see the sun set again.
After a few weeks I was attached from 20 OUT to 91 Group Airbomber instructors school at Moreton in Marsh for 3 weeks before becoming an official instructor. I returned to 20 OUT and shortly afterwards was again sent off on a course, this time to the Bomber Command Analysis School at Worksop. Here I became an alleged expert on the Mark XIV Bomsight.[sic] This was a gyro stabilised bombsight [sic] which was a tactical bombsight [sic] rather than a precision bombsight.[sic] It consisted of a computor[sic] box and a sighting head and obtained information of airspeed, height, temperature and course from aircraft instruments plus one or two manual settings and converted this information into a sighting angle. The only piece of vital information to be added was the wind speed and direction which had to be calculated by the Navigator. The bombaimer was then able to do a bombing run without the necessity of flying straight and level.. It took account of climbing, a shallow dive and banking. The sequence of events when bombing was, when the bomb release (hereafter called the ‘tit’ [)]was pressed several things happened, the bombs started to be released in the order set on the automatic bomb distributor, so that they were dropped in a ‘stick’. The photoflash was released, the camera started to operate and as the bombs reached the point of impact almost immediately beneath the aircraft, the photographs were taken. Having used this equipment for the whole of my tour of operations I can vouch for its performance. The Americans had their much vaunted Norden and Sperry Bombsights [sic]
[page break]
which were claimed to be very accurate but required the aircraft to maintain a straight and level flight path for an unacceptable time against heavily defended targets. The Mk XIV was so good that the Americans adopted it for their own aircraft and called it the T1 Bombsight. Many T1’s were used by the RAF in lieu of the MkXIV. A matter of production I guess.
On my return from Worksop, with glowing reports from my two courses, the Bombing Leader said “OK Flight Sergeant you had better apply for a commission.” This I did and after going through all the procedures was commissioned in the rank of Pilot Officer (198592) on the 5th June, 1945.
Of course ‘VE’ Day took place on the 5th May after which it was only a matter of time before the OTU’s were run down and in the case of Lossiemouth this was to be sooner rather than later. The Wellingtons were all flown down to Hawarden in Cheshire for eventual disposal, I must record one tragic incident which happened whilst I was at Lossiemouth. One Sunday morning a Wellington took off on air test and lost an engine on take-off and the pilot was obviously trying to make a crash landing on the beach to the East of Seatown. He didn’t make it and crashed on top of a small block of maisonettes killing most of the inhabitants who were still in bed. A tragic accident!
The question now arose as to where next we would all go. We were given the option of being made redundant aircrew, going to another OTU or going back to an operational Squadron. My problem was solved for me, ‘Johnnie’ Johnson, ‘A’ Flight Commander, came into the plotting office and said “I’m going back on ops, I want a bombaimer”. Thus I joined his crew and other instructors made up a full crew with the exception of a flight engineer, all having done a first tour. Johnnie had to revert
[page break]
from his Squadron Leader rank to Flight Lieutenant. All the other members of the crew were officers.
Chapter IX Tiger Force.
On the 6th. July we went to 1654 Conversion Unit at Wigsley, were not wanted there and were sent to 1660 Conversion Unit at Swinderby. It was necessary to do a conversion course becaused[sic] Johnnie had done his first tour on Halifaxes and needed to convert to Lancasters. We also picked up a Flight Engineer who was actually a newly trained pilot, who had also done a flight engineers course, there now being a surplus of pilots. He happened to be a lad I knew from my ATC days.
We were now part of “Tiger Force” which was 5 Group renamed and we were to fly the Lancasters out to Okinawa to join in the attack on Japan. The Lancasters would shortly be replaced by the new Lincoln bombers which were bigger, more powerful and had a longer range.
We commenced our training, for my part I had to familiarise myself with ‘Loran’ which was a long range Gee for use in the Pacific. I did say earlier in the story that I would tell you about my ‘rash’. At Swinderby I had a recurrence and immediately reported sick. The Doc took a look at me and said “Oh! We know what that is, it is oxygen mask dermatitis, when you sweat your skin is allergic to rubber. We will make you a fabric mask. Problem solved. The new mask was not needed, however,
[page break]
because the war ended and with it my flying career.
VJ Day was a wild affair, In the “Halfway House” pub at Swinderby my brand new officer’s cap was filled with beer when I left it on a stool.
In a final salute to the mighty Lancaster, Swinderby had an open day to celebrate the end of the war and the Chief Flying Instructor, the second on three, the third on two and finally the fourth on one engine. What an aeroplane! What a pilot!
Chapter X The last chapter.
There followed a strange period. First to Acaster Malbis, nr York where all redundant Aircrew handed in their flying kit. Then to Blyton, Nr. Gainsborough where we were given a choice of alternative traded. Seldom did anyone get their first choice and I was chosen to become an Equipment Officer and after a brief spell at Wickenby was posted to the Equipment Officers School at RAF Bicester. A four week course and I was meant to be a fully qualified equipment officer. I was posted to Scampton but not needed there and so was posted on to RAF Cosford where I was put in charge of the technical stores. The Chief Equipment Officer was fairly elderly Wing Commander who took me under his wing and kept a fatherly eye on me. The Royal Air Force was beginning to return to peacetime status and Wingco[sic] warned me that it was probably not a good idea to fraternize with my ex Aircrew NCO’s in the “Shrewsbury Arms”. If you must, get on your bikes and go further afield, was his advice.
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One Monday morning I was called up to the WingCo’s office to be asked “Where is F/Sgt. Brown (Not his real name) this morning”. “I don’t know sir” I replied. “Well I will tell you” he said. “He is under arrest at Shifnal Police Station”
This particular ex Aircrew NCO lived in a village quite near to Cosford and had permission to ‘live out’. It transpired that almost everyone in his village had new curtains made from RAF bunting and quite a few people were wearing RAF or Waaf shoes. I was ordered to do a stock check on my section and for his part he was charged by the Civil Police and at Shifnal Magistrates Court received little more than a slap on the wrist. No doubt his war service stood him in good stead. Because he had been dealt with by the Civil Courts he could not be charged and Court Martialled by the RAF and all that happened was that he was posted away from Cosford and released early into civvie street.
At the time, lots of POW’s were passing through Cosford on their way from POW Camps in Europe to their homes.
Monthly “Dining In” nights were also resumed in the Officers Mess. Due to officers leaving the station or being demobbed, at every “Dining In” we were “Dining Out” those departing., always ending in a wild party. I remember one night which was extremely boisterous ending with Bar Rugby, footprints on the ceiling, the lot. I had better leave to the imagination how the footprints on the ceiling were achieved. That night I went to bed at about 3 am and when I went in to breakfast the following morning the mess was immaculate. The staff had obviously been up all night cleaning up.
On the 4th. November 1946 I received my final posting from Cosford to Headquarters Technical Training Command, at Brampton Nr. Huntingdon to be Unit Equipment
[page break]
Officer. The Headquarters Unit consisted of a Squadron Leader C.O., a Flight Lieutenant Accountant Officer, a Flight Lt. Equipment Officer and their staffs. I had a hairy old Sergeant Equipment Assistant who I believe was a regular airman and probably looked upon me as not a real Equipment Officer. However, his knowledge and experience were invaluable.
I enquired as to the whereabouts of my predecessor to be told that he had already gone having been posted abroad. There was, therefore, no handover of inventories. The next surprise was even greater, I was told that I also had RAF Kimbolton to finish closing down. I took myself to Kimbolton to find a ‘care and maintenance party’ of three airmen and one Waaf. Two were out on the airfield shooting rabbits and the other two were dealing with some paperwork. The entire camp had been almost cleared, barrack equipment to a storage/disposal site, fuel to other sites and/or the homes of the local population. Legend had it that a grand piano from the Sergeants Mess had gone astray. One day a Provost Squadron Leader came into my office and said: “Bailey, I want you to come with me to St. Neots Police Station to identify some rolls of linoleum which they have recovered from a farmer”. We went to St. Neots and a police sergeant showed us several rolls of obvious Air Ministry linoleum standing in a cell. I examined the rolls and could find no AM marks so I told the Provost that I could say the rolls ere exactly similar to AM Lino but I could not positively identify them as AM property. The provost told the police sergeant to give the lino back to the farmer. Heaven only knows how many houses had their floors covered in Air Ministry lino in the Kimbolton area. No doubt this sort of thing was happening all over the country. The politicians were so anxious to get servicemen back into civvies street that establishments were seriously undermanned.
When I, a mere Flying Officer, did the final paperwork for RAF Kimbolton I raised a
[page break]
write off document well in excess of £1 million at 1947 prices and this only involved equipment known to be missing.
With regard to Brampton itself, the winter of 46/47 was extremely severe with heavy snowfalls. Even the rail line between Huntingdon and Kettering was blocked. When the snow thawed there was severe flooding. One weekend I went home and returned to Camp on Sunday afternoon to find that the previous night there had been a severe storm with gale force winds and Brampton was a scene of devastation. Trees had been blown down crushing nissen huts. The camp was flooded and the sewage system was completely useless. The following morning I located a stock of portable loos (Thunder boxes so called). A four wheel drive vehicle was despatched through the flood waters surrounding Huntingdon, to RAF Upwood to collect these things. Things gradually returned to something like normal but it was a terrible time. The Officers Mess at Brampton was in the large house in Brampton Park and the Headquarters Staff from the C in C Technical Training Command down, were housed in Offices adjacent to Brampton Grange. There were far more senior officers at Brampton than junior officers because of the very nature of the place.
The PMC of the mess was a Group Captain and one day he came to me and said “Bailey, we are going to have a Dining In and I thought it would be nice if we could have some proper RAF crested crockery and cutlery”. I informed the PMC that these items were not on issue whereupon he suggested that I use my initiative.
It just so happened that whilst I was a[sic] Cosford I learned that in the Barrack Stores the very things I was being asked to get were in store, having been there throughout the War. I spoke with the Wing Commander, my former boss, who
agreed to release a quantity of crockery, etc. I informed the PMC of my success and he arranged for a De Havilland Rapide aircraft from our communications flight at nearby Wyton to take
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me to Cosford to collect the two heavy chests of crocks. I am sure the Rapide was overloaded on the flight back to Wyton but the mission was accomplished and the PMC was able to show off his ‘posh’ tableware at the next Dining In.
I was shortly to have to make a major decision, the date was fast approaching for my release back into civilian life, I had agreed to serve six months beyond my release date and had made an application for an extended service commission which would have kept me in the Royal Air Force for at least another six years. However my civilian employers became aware that I had done the extra six months and were not amused. I, despite having access to ‘P’ staff at Brampton could not get a decision from Air Ministry and I made the decision to leave the service.
On 1st. April, how significant a date, I headed off to Kirkham in Lancashire to collect my demob suit. A very sad day.
This is the end of the ‘dream’ but not quite the end of my love affair with the Royal Air Force. But that, as they say, is another story ……
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Two photographs in RAF uniform; one in 1942 aged 18 and the other in 1945 aged 21.
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Was it all a Dream
The memoirs of Wartime Bomb Aimer Bill Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Bailey's wartime memoirs, from enlistment, training in UK and Canada and detail of each of 31 operation in Bomber Command. After completion of his tour he was transferred to Lossiemouth to train Free French aircrew. After successful progress he was offered a commission. Later he trained for Tiger Force ops at RAF Wigsley and Swinderby. When the Force was cancelled he became an Equipment Officer at Bicester then Cosford, Brampton and Kimbolton.
Creator
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Bill Bailey
Format
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45 typewritten sheets and two b/w photographs
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Photograph
Identifier
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BBaileyJDBaileyJDv1
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
Free French Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Norway
Poland
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--Kattegat (Baltic Sea)
England--Birmingham
England--Devon
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Yorkshire
France--Domléger-Longvillers
France--Ardennes
France--Calais
France--Cap Gris Nez
France--Le Havre
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Freiburg im Breisgau
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Leipzig
Manitoba--Carberry
Netherlands--Domburg
Netherlands--Eindhoven
New Brunswick--Moncton
Norway--Oslo
Nova Scotia--Halifax
Ontario--Hamilton
Ontario--Picton
Poland--Szczecin
Netherlands--Hague
France
Ontario
New Brunswick
Nova Scotia
Netherlands
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Warwickshire
Manitoba
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Sue Smith
David Bloomfield
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1 Group
103 Squadron
166 Squadron
1660 HCU
1667 HCU
4 Group
5 Group
576 Squadron
8 Group
83 OTU
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
B-17
Bolingbroke
bomb aimer
bombing
Bombing and Gunnery School
briefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
flight engineer
Gee
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
Lysander
Master Bomber
medical officer
memorial
mid-air collision
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Mosquito
Oboe
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
promotion
RAF Acaster Malbis
RAF Bicester
RAF Binbrook
RAF Blyton
RAF Brampton
RAF Cosford
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Hawarden
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kimbolton
RAF Kirmington
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Paignton
RAF Penrhos
RAF Peplow
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Scampton
RAF St Athan
RAF Swinderby
RAF Worksop
RAF Wyton
Scarecrow
searchlight
superstition
Tiger force
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
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8507b318fd85683be6792d3505bbeccd
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/818/10801/AFearnsH170724.1.mp3
ce8cfbef19c41548e6c2de7fa30a072a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fearns, Harry
H Fearns
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Harry Fearns (b. 1925, 1591683 Royal Air Force), seven photographs, his service badges and identity card. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 100 and 97 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Harry Fearns and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Fearns, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Sergeant Harry Fearns at 2.15 on Monday 24th of July 2017 at his home near Bury, Greater Manchester. Also with us is his daughter, Gillian Bailey. Harry, if I can start off with some straightforward questions for you, please. Can you tell me your date of birth, where you, and where you were born?
HF: Date of birth was 24 1 25.
BW: 24th of January 1925.
HF: Correct.
BW: And how many were there in your family? Did you have any brothers and sisters?
HF: Yes. There were six of us.
BW: How many brothers and sisters did you have in —?
HF: Well, I’ll start at, I was the eldest. There was Harry, Gordon, Joyce, Margaret. Was that my six? That sounds about right.
BW: That’s four.
HF: Four.
BW: There were two more.
HF: Oh.
GB: John. Brother, John.
HF: Oh yes, John.
GB: And Kathleen.
HF: And Kathleen.
BW: And what was, what was family life like? Where were you growing up at this time? Were you in Bury or were you, were you born elsewhere in the country?
HF: No. I was born in South Yorkshire.
BW: Ok. Whereabouts in South Yorkshire.
HF: In a little house [unclear] Barnsley.
BW: Barnsley. Ok.
HF: West Middleton, near Rotherham. But we always talked about Barnsley being the leading place not, not Rotherham.
BW: So, you were close to Barnsley.
HF: Yes.
BW: And where did you go to school?
HF: Wath on Dearne Grammar School.
BW: How do you —
HF: Wath upon, U P O N
BW: Wath upon —
HF: Wath. Separate word, upon. Upon.
BW: Wath upen?
HF: Dearne.
GB: Wath upon Dearne. So, it’s W A T H —
HF: D E A R.
GB: Upon-D E A R N E.
BW: Right. I haven’t heard of that. That’s [pause] Wath upon Dearne.
HF: Nice little place.
BW: Was it a bit of a village?
HF: It was a mining village really.
BW: And what did your dad do? Was he a miner?
HF: A miner.
BW: What about your mum?
HF: Too busy with the family to have any work.
BW: So, your dad was the worker and your mum looked after the rest of you.
HF: That’s it.
BW: And what was, what was your school like?
HF: Well, for the year, typical Wath, typical Grammar School.
BW: So, you went to a Grammar School then.
HF: Yes.
BW: And what age did you leave? You would be fourteen? Or was it after that?
HF: Sixteen. I left and I went to work for the Prudential Insurance Company. At the same time I applied to be in the RAF and of course that was about [pause] 1944. So, obviously that was during the war years.
BW: And what prompted you to join the RAF?
HF: I really wanted. I don’t know how I’d describe it.
GB: But you told me you’d always wanted to fly.
HF: Well, yes. That could be summed up.
BW: And did you want to be a pilot or a navigator or did you want to be say a gunner or or other crew member?
HF: Well, like those in reduced order.
BW: Ok.
HF: Pilot first. Navigator second. Engineer. Then a navigator err air gunner.
BW: And when you went for the interviews did you tell them that you wanted to be a pilot? What happened?
HF: Oh yeah.
BW: What happened so that you, you ended up as flight engineer?
HF: I think what one can say is that they’d got enough at that time. They hadn’t lost enough, putting it crudely. So, it depended what was available when we were called for to be signed on.
BW: So, you were working for Prudential Insurance at this time. Were you? What sort of position were you in the, in the company?
HF: Just a rent collector. Well, not so much rent. A collector of premiums.
BW: And the war had been going on a few years at this point can you recall at that time did it feel like it was coming to an end or that it was going to continue longer than it did?
HF: We thought it was coming to an end. Thought we were helping. All the flying and the fighting. Not that I did any fighting but [laughs]
BW: Did you join up with any friends?
HF: Not exactly friends but certainly some of my old, my pals went around about the same time.
BW: And you’d had an ambition to fly. What [pause] I’m trying to understand whether you and your friends perhaps wanted to get some action before you joined up or whether it was more that you’d heard a lot of the RAF and what it was doing.
HF: I think it’s the latter. You know, we just wanted to fly. We didn’t particularly want to shoot any guns or —
BW: And where, where did you start your training? Do you remember?
HF: St Johns Wood, London.
BW: And what was it like? Was it what you expected it to be?
HF: I thought it was great. We used to march from [pause] I’ve just forgotten the the place where we were sleeping. Something Court. And we used to have PT and exercises early in the morning. Then we did some studies. You might do an hour navigation, an hour generally but have to early on [pause] what was I about to say? [pause] Yeah. We moved on some of our exercises. We went in to Lord’s Cricket Ground. Marching up and down at Lords and doing sort of [pause] after about two months of that they farmed us out and in my particular case was to an aircrew training establishment at Newquay, Cornwall. Have you come across it?
BW: That’s quite a way away.
HF: It was.
BW: From London. It’s a good —
HF: Yeah.
BW: Hundred miles.
HF: But they needed, afterwards you realised they were, that near the end of the war they wanted to get rid of at least accommodation belonging to private people, I suppose. And as soon as they could get rid of the larger establishments then they got rid of places like Newquay. For example, the one after that we went to was Stormy Down in Glamorgan. Porthcawl. That’s the place it was near.
BW: Porthcawl.
HF: Yeah.
BW: It’s a lot easier to get from Newquay to Porthcawl then it is from Newquay to London.
HF: Yeah. Yeah. I read that.
BW: And so you were going through your basic training at this stage.
HF: Yes. This time.
BW: Whereabouts did you do your engineering training? Was that at Stormy Down?
HF: No. St Athan School of Technical Training. Massive place.
BW: Do you recall how long you were there?
HF: No. I would have thought it was about an hour err an hour, a year because they kept stopping as they found out, presumably found out that there were staff they didn’t need they moved them on. On to the next stage and the facilities would be left for some chaps behind. They would spend most of their time playing football.
BW: And so you were training at St Athan. It says, is it Number 4 School of Technical Training? Or trade training.
HF: Something like that. Is it on there.
BW: Yeah. It’s there.
HF: Oh, it’s there [laughs]
BW: And according to your logbook you got sixty five point two percent.
HF: Yeah.
BW: And you trained on Lancaster 1s and Mark 3s.
HF: Yes.
BW: Were they 1s or was that a type of aircraft that you selected to train on or were you —
HF: Oh no.
BW: Directed on to —
HF: You will go.
BW: And how did you feel about that? Being put on Lancasters.
HF: Perhaps relieved that we were not a gunner. An air gunner. It was interesting at the time.
BW: And it looks from your time of joining up to the time of finishing the course at St Athan that the war had actually ended during that time.
HF: That’s about right. Yes.
BW: What can you recall of that? That time? Were there, did you still feel like there was a role for you now that the war had ended or did you feel a bit surplus perhaps?
HF: No. I think we, it’s better to be moved to the southeast and fighting the Japs there. And the aircraft you saw were different to the two colour system. They were, and they had an idea was to give them some protection from other aircraft. Other aircraft attacking you. So, in fact the aircraft that you showed was the Lancaster 1 FE, Far East.
BW: And so it, was it a particular type or version of the Mark 1 that was dedicated for Far East service? Is that why it was called a Lancaster 1FE?
HF: Not really it was just, it was planes they took into the hangars and made adaptations. I couldn’t remember exactly which they gave us. Except obviously, the F, the FE bit.
BW: So, you left St Athan and I think you went to an OCU. An Operational Conversion Unit. And that was 230 OCU at Lindholme.
HF: Ah, yes. Yeah.
BW: And it, it shows from your logbook you starting there in 1947. What do you recall of Lindholme at that time?
HF: Typical Bomber Command plane. [pause] And we kept on doing the same job and by then for a time passed to Lindholme which was virtually mixed in next door to Finningley. And Lindholme, my main recollection of Lindholme was in nineteen, February I think it is, ’47 and the big freeze. We spent loads of time with shovels getting the ice and snow off the runways.
BW: So [laughs] so you joined up to fly and there you were on the runway.
HF: That’s it.
BW: With your spade.
HF: Yeah.
BW: Shovelling snow. At these OCUs it was common for the different trades to get together and form a crew. Can you recall how that happened for you? How you met your other crew mates?
HF: I can remember it. I remember it plain as anything. That we all went in a hangar and they called out, you know, ‘Joe. Joe Smith.’ These, they’d be the skippers, pilots would be called in and they’d say, ‘Right. Pick your navigator. Pick your engineer.’ And eventually build the crew.
BW: So, it sounds fairly similar to what they were doing actually in the war years. Putting them in a hangar and telling them to sort themselves out.
HF: Yeah.
BW: So, you wouldn’t necessarily, did you meet your pilot first or did you meet other crew mates first and then decide which pilot you wanted? Or did the pilot kind of choose you? Or —
HF: I can’t remember whether I was selected or what was left sort of thing.
BW: And what can you recall of your crew mates?
HF: I can’t explain really. Didn’t see a lot of one another except when we were flying.
BW: Were you not billeted together as a crew?
HF: Subject to rank, yes.
BW: So were you all NCOs or was one of —
HF: Well, no. One —
BW: One or two officers.
HF: What did you call him? Leicester? Register. Mike Register. I remember him. He definitely, he got in to the officer’s mess. And we, in other words the sergeants and flight sergeants we’d go in the NCOs mess.
BW: Do you remember how many of you were? Were NCOs? Was there only one officer? Was, was he the pilot? Presumably he was the pilot.
HF: He was. Mike Register.
BW: Yeah.
HF: And the navigator. Scott somebody. I can’t remember his name. He might be in here somewhere.
BW: And did you keep, when you were billeted were you billeted as NCOs or were you in some cases they were by trade. So the gunners would be kept together and so on but that doesn’t seem to have happened with you.
HF: No. It didn’t.
BW: So, you were all mixed trades but still in the NCOs—
HF: Yes.
BW: In the NCOs mess. From your logbook when you were on the OCU do you remember any sorties at that particular time? Any incidents during your, sort of training together?
[pause]
HF: No. I can’t.
BW: Ok. You moved from there I think, to 100 Squadron.
HF: Was that at Hemswell, as well?
BW: And they were as I think you say at Hemswell. But you converted when you joined the squadron. You converted to Lincolns.
HF: Yeah. Well —
BW: Instead of the Lancasters.
HF: Yes.
BW: Can you recall what —
HF: The passage of time. The Lincoln was a bit bigger.
BW: How would you compare it to a Lancaster? Did you have a favourite between the two?
HF: Oh yes. The old Lanc couldn’t be beaten in that respect.
BW: And how did the Lincoln differ from an engineer’s point of view?
HF: It seemed altogether quite efficient. Difficult to explain what it might be for the rest, all the crew and the different engines and things like that. But we had fewer, fewer mistakes. We didn’t have any crashes which was a surprise really.
BW: But having flown Lincolns you preferred the Lancasters still.
HF: Definitely.
BW: Did you notice any particular difference between the Mark 1 and the Mark 3 at all?
HF: 3.
BW: Was there anything notable?
[pause]
HF: No. All I think it was was a larger engine.
BW: And when it came to you actually preparing to carry out a sortie what would you as a flight engineer be doing? Can you recall what kind of things? What kind of steps you would be taking to prepare yourself and then carry out the sortie?
[pause]
HF: You’d check that the, the aircraft site you’d got, that they’d allocated to you, you’d be like, you’d like it so that that to be one as it were you had flown before but nevertheless you used to go out to the [pause] I’ve forgotten the name of the place where the planes were dumped.
BW: Dispersal.
HF: Dispersal. Thank you [laughs] You’d go out to your dispersal and as it were meet your aircraft. See this chief of the engineers. Yeah. And sort yourself with any, any problems there might be. And equally, the engineer would keep an eye on me as a flight engineer often looking down on them because they thought that the flyers were having an easy time.
BW: So even though you were perhaps taking more of a risk as air crew because you would be awarded flying pay in your, in your salary the engineers on the ground still looked down at you because you were not seen perhaps as proper engineers.
HF: Certainly, the chief engineers felt that.
BW: Had any of them flown do you know? Had any of the chief engineers been aircrew at all and then taken a ground job?
HF: No.
BW: So, they didn’t really know what risks you were taking then.
HF: Well, the stories one hears.
BW: You mentioned just before that when you were allocated an aircraft you always hoped to get one that you had flown before and it seems from from that and from your logbook you didn’t have a regular aircraft that you were allocated. Was there a favourite one or a particular one that you felt more comfortable with or was better for you and why would that be?
HF: Well, in a way they would all be the same because for example, you were coming up in the size of the Lincoln 1FE then what are the chances all of you would be on the higher plane? So, they were not all the same.
BW: At 100 Squadron there had been four or five Lancasters on the squadrons books that had flown over a hundred missions in the war. Were they still there at the time do you recall or had they been retired by that point?
HF: I don’t know. I can’t remember that.
BW: Were there any aircraft still there that had maybe war markings on them? Say the number of bomb sorties that they’d, you know sort of, bomb symbols to indicate the number of missions.
HF: They had. They had. I remember one or two like that but I can’t remember which they are.
BW: Did you try and avoid those at all?
HF: No [laughs] Well, the fighting was over then so we relaxed in some ways.
BW: So, you’ve been driven out to dispersal and you’ve had a look around the aircraft and a hand over’s taken place. Can you remember what you would then be doing as flight engineer once you get in the aircraft and you’re walking up or clambering over the main spar to get up to the flight engineer’s position? What kind of things would be on your list to do?
HF: Well, you get to know the aircraft which you know you probably hadn’t seen all that much in spite of the training.
GB: But did you have little checks that you had to do like checking dials or levers?
HF: Oh yes. That, by it’s —
GB: What would you have to do?
HF: Well, first of all you’d walk around the aircraft from the outside and check all the places that you can get at. When you’d done that you go inside the aircraft and check the things that were the responsibility of the engineer. For example, you wouldn’t interfere with the navigator and he wouldn’t interfere with your job. Should be. And once they were satisfied that the aircraft was serviceable then off you’d go on some exercise.
GB: Did you have to write anything down though? As a flight engineer did you have to check certain things and say yes that’s safe. Yes, that’s, did you have anything like that?
HF: Yeah. We did to some extent.
GB: And so what —
HF: I can’t remember them though [pause]
GB: Yeah.
BW: The flight engineer’s position in a Lancaster you’re almost off the, just off the right shoulder of the, of the pilot.
HF: Yeah.
BW: Was that any different in the Lincoln?
HF: No. No.
BW: So, you were in the same position whichever aircraft you flew and —
HF: Yes, I’d been certainly.
BW: And can you recall what you would be doing? Would you have to help the pilot during take-off or anything like that?
HF: Yes.
BW: What would you do?
HF: You’d be, bear in mind this is an aircraft, quite a largish one to us then and we’d got to get it flying. So you’re checking with the pilot on all his checks as well. Calling back to one another until you got ready for flying. In the meantime, we taxied out to the edge of the airport and off you go. Then the navigator would to some extent take over to put down where you were going to go to and see some of these on here.
BW: And there’s a mix in your logbook of day sorties and night sorties as well. And even on your first one I think air to sea firing on the first —
HF: Yes.
BW: Sortie there. So presumably you were out over the North Sea.
HF: Yes. Yes.
BW: And what were your night time sorties like?
HF: Boring [pause] We just had to do our exercise which probably lasted five hours or something like that. These long exercises were in many ways more interesting than the short ones.
BW: And you’d still be carrying out fighter affiliation or bombing exercises even though the war had finished.
HF: Yes.
BW: Did they brief you as to what your sort of longer term role was? Bearing in mind that Germany had been defeated and by this stage, 1947 the war with Japan had long been over as well. Did they, although you are still carrying out, let’s say typical training sorties that were appropriate to wartime did they give, did you get a sense of what your purpose was in the immediate post-war years? What your role was?
HF: I’ve no recollection of that. We were doing odd jobs back at Hemswell and Scampton hoping one day we’d go somewhere interesting. But what happened is that a high percentage of the blokes who had done their time, their Service and went back to Civvy Street and we probably wouldn’t see them again.
BW: Were you able to meet or interact with any of the veterans? And I say veterans, from those who had been on missions over Germany while you were on the squadron. You were fairly new. Were you able to meet any of those who’d been on the squadron and were being demobbed after wartime service?
HF: I thought we would have but I can’t remember any.
BW: When you look back at some of the missions or the sorties that you were tasked what can you recall of them? Are there any memorable ones that, that you can recall from there?
HF: I don’t think there were any real interesting memorable ones at all. You probably saw some of the air sea, air to sea firing [laughs] and dropping bombs in the Wash and things like that.
BW: Can you recall what the targets were in the Wash? Were they perhaps disused ships or were they —
HF: I think they were disused ships. Certainly made to look like ships. There’s an interesting one. Four hours familiarisation flying and three engine flying. Three engines, had obviously had some trouble in one of them and had come out of order so we were flying back on three which was no problem on a big plane.
BW: Did that happen often for you? Did you practice it?
HF: Yes. Oh, yes.
BW: And as an engineer can you recall any particular steps you had to take or difficulties involved in flying with only one engine on, available on one wing and two on the other because you’ve got double to power on.
HF: Yeah.
BW: What kind of problems would that cause you?
HF: Well, the main thing was trying to keep the power up on the other three to balance on the one that was out of order. And seeing as there was no bombs, no problems. We were, almost enjoyed it.
BW: And of course you weren’t, you had the advantage of not being shot at.
HF: True [laughs]
BW: There’s one note in here about Naval exercise. Presumably you’d coordinate with the Navy at some point.
HF: Yeah. I imagine so. I can’t remember it.
BW: And another one there where you’ve got noted power plant in the bomb bay.
HF: Ah, now there was a base near, in Egypt and they were reliable on us in Britain for their maintenance more and wanted a Lancaster to fly out in its bomb bays and then come back of course with the defective engine. And that was for some reason they sent me as engineer there. But planting the bomb bay, you know obviously then brought the bomb bay back, brought the bomb back with us. Have to confirm that.
BW: And there’s a few cross-country flights.
HF: Yes. [laughs]
BW: Pamphlet dropping. And air sea rescue.
HF: Over Lancashire and places like that.
GB: What was the pamphlet dropping, dad? What were you doing?
HF: This was just after the war to keep people cheered up.
BW: All your exercises, or all your sorties are going around the UK. There aren’t any recorded for going overseas except one which we see here going to —
HF: [unclear] just in to.
BW: Saint Quentin.
HF: Germany. Yeah.
BW: Saarbrücken.
HF: Saarbrücken. Yeah. [ Benebruck. Benebruck?]
BW: Osnabruck.
HF: Osnabruck, is it? Yes. So, it is.
BW: That looks like your first time over, over Germany.
HF: Yeah. It probably is.
BW: Can you recall anything about that particular one?
HF: I can’t. No.
[pause]
BW: This one sounds an interesting one. In fact, there’s two. This is late November 1947 and one daylight sortie is formation and fighter affiliation and the other is low level cross country. So which was that? Formation and fighter affil.
HF: Fighter affiliation. Yeah.
BW: Oh that. Yeah.
HF: And then a day or two after low level cross country.
BW: What did it feel like? Flying at low level.
HF: Great. Super it was.
BW: Were there any height restrictions at that particular time?
HF: Yes, I’m sure there were. I can’t remember. I can’t remember anything special about it.
BW: I think they might have been a lot more relaxed then they were. Than they are now.
HF: Yes. A combination of both. Of being relaxed and being bored.
BW: Was a Lincoln alright to handle at low level?
HF: Yes. Oh yes [pause] How’s that for a long flight? Scampton. Ten. Ten minutes [laughs]
[pause]
BW: So, by this stage late 1947 your time on 100 Squadron appears to be coming to an end and I believe you joined 97 Squadron after that. Can you remember?
HF: Yes, I was there for a month or two. I don’t remember a lot about it. Of course, if we were in the right places it was quite famous.
BW: It had been a Pathfinder Squadron.
HF: That’s right. Yeah.
BW: At one time.
HF: Yeah.
BW: But there’s no record of any flights that you took with that, with that squadron.
HF: Not at all.
BW: No.
HF: Perhaps at that yeah. That time they wouldn’t have heard of us [unclear]
BW: Can you recall what your CO was like at 100 Squadron? Did you see much of him?
HF: No. I didn’t. Just made sure he had his salute if he passed you.
BW: What was the social life like in the RAF at this time?
HF: In our case we used to drive in to Lincoln for our social life. Any other direction if you look at your map you’ll find there’s nothing that way, nothing that way.
BW: Lincoln is the nearest big city, isn’t it? [pause] Did it feel any different for you having lived through the war years and the rationing and the blackouts and things was there a palpable difference when you were in the RAF and going into Lincoln let’s say for social events?
HF: No. I can’t say that there was.
BW: There’s a photograph here of you in uniform and it looks like you’re on, you’re on the seafront.
HF: It probably is Skegness or somewhere like that. Or Cleethorpes.
BW: Did you get much time off at all from from duties?
HF: Oh, yes.
BW: And did you socialise as a crew or did you have any particular other friends that you, you met up with in there for instance?
HF: Well, I would socialise. Yes. Not necessarily in the same crew, in fact. You know.
BW: And did you get to know any of the other crews?
HF: Yes. Must have done. Flying with them. But I can’t remember much about it.
BW: There’s another picture here.
HF: That’s a Lincoln, isn’t it?
BW: That’s a Lancaster.
HF: Is it?
BW: And it looks, there must be at least three of you in formation because you’re in one aircraft and there’s two others in the, in the picture. That must be when you’re at 100 Squadron.
GB: Can you remember taking that picture or did somebody else take it and give it to you, dad?
HF: I think the latter but I can’t remember. So —
BW: There’s another picture here which shows the other members of the crew and I’m guessing that that is the navigator who’s the officer. There.
HF: Oh, most certainly, yes. Yes.
BW: Second left.
HF: Yeah.
BW: And that’s by the rear turret of what must be a Lincoln.
HF: [unclear]
BW: Can you recall any of the people in the, in the photograph at all?
HF: Yeah. Sparky there. Willy, the wireless operator there. You mentioned the navigator.
BW: Think that’s him. Yeah. Isn’t it?
HF: In the middle.
BW: Second left.
HF: Flat cap.
BW: Yeah.
HF: Then me. Then the rear gunner. I must have missed somebody out because there’s another navigator there.
[pause]
BW: But none of their names come back to you.
HF: Every now and again. And there’s our navigator down in the, or our bomb aimer down on the floor.
BW: What happened to when you left 97 Squadron? Were you then demobbed? Was this the beginning of National Service? Were you then demobbed after that or did you continue in the RAF for a little while longer?
HF: No. I [pause] yes, I got demobbed or I took demob and that was either from [pause] what’s the place near Doncaster?
BW: Finningley. Finningley?
HF: No, the —
BW: Hemswell.
HF: Hemswell. Yeah. I can see it now. Going over Hemswell and then we signed up all our papers and what have you at Scampton. No. That was at Hemswell. And from Hemswell I was taken to Blackpool and released.
BW: Presumably that was Squires Gate. That’s where they had the big —
HF: Yes. That’s right.
BW: Big Reception Centre. And what happened from there? Did you have a job to go back to or did you just go home to South Yorkshire?
HF: Well, in the latter there was no job as such. I was accepted by the people I worked with at the time, the Prudential and started working there.
BW: And how long did you work —
HF: In Civvy Street.
BW: How long did you work for the Prudential for?
HF: Not long. One year. Two year.
BW: And what, what did you go on to do after that?
HF: Rent collecting.
BW: But not with the Prudential. With another company.
HF: No. Well, Prudential didn’t have many accommodation now for —
GB: So, it was the local council, was it that you —?
HF: It was the local council. Yeah.
GB: Council housing.
BW: And when, when did you get married?
[pause]
HF: About [pause] was it in nineteen —
GB: I remember it was in July. I don’t know which year though. I can’t remember. I wouldn’t. I don’t know.
HF: Well, well, well. I would have laid my money on her remembering that.
BW: Did you stay in South Yorkshire?
HF: Yes. For a couple of years. Then went to Harlow in Essex.
BW: What prompted you to move down there?
HF: Plenty of opportunity. They were building what, eight big towns. In the south mainly. So, I thought it would be best of new opportunities down there. And so I worked there. At some stage I moved up to Harlow in Essex and up to the east. To Doncaster, wasn’t it?
GB: No. After Harlow dad you moved up to Nuneaton because I was born in Harlow, wasn’t I? And we left Harlow in 1972 when you got that job as a housing manager.
HF: Yes.
GB: At Nuneaton Council.
HF: Oh, [unclear]
GB: The date sticks in my mind because that’s when I did my O levels and I remember —
HF: Yes.
GB: Us just moving up just after that.
HF: Oh aye.
BW: And then from there you obviously moved up to Manchester, or Greater Manchester.
HF: Well, that's by accident if anything.
GB: Yeah. It’s only a couple of years ago when dad —
HF: Yeah.
GB: Couldn’t live on his own anymore in Nuneaton.
BW: Yeah. Did you manage to keep in touch with any of your crew mates after, after leaving the RAF or did you just all go your separate ways?
HF: We all went our separate ways. I don’t remember any of them because we all got demobbed as it were in any number. You know, in our number but in my experience.
BW: You were demobbed individually.
HF: Yes.
GB: You know John Whitlock, in Harlow. He was in the RAF. Did you know him when you were in the RAF?
HF: No.
GB: So, you just met him in Harlow and he just happened to be in the RAF.
HF: Yes.
GB: Right.
BW: And the, how did you hear about the Memorial for Bomber Command?
HF: I was in RAFA, so you got all the bumph and publicity for some of the activities. And I remember going to Coningsby. To the, that’s not Bomber Command, is it? That’s —
BW: It was. It was a bomber base.
HF: Yeah. But since then.
GB: Are you thinking of the reunions of Project Propeller that you’ve been to occasionally?
HF: No. But that does come in to it though, love. Yeah. Did you know of that?
GB: Project Propeller is when local pilots take you to your reunions isn’t it?
HF: Yes. That’s sums it up.
BW: Have you managed to get to the Memorial site at Lincoln? At Canwick Hill.
HF: No.
BW: Or not.
HF: Is that where the new site is?
BW: That’s yeah. That’s where the new site is.
HF: Is that in Scampton?
BW: It’s not far from Scampton. It’s probably five or six miles. Something like that.
HF: Yeah. Towards Lincoln.
BW: Yes.
HF: Yeah.
BW: Yeah. Scampton’s just north of Lincoln isn’t it. So, as you, as you come south you actually go —
HF: What did you actually call it?
BW: Scampton. So, as you go towards the city and then go up the valley at the other side and that is Canwick Hill and that’s where the Memoria is.
HF: Oh right.
[pause]
BW: Well, I think I’ve gone through all the questions that I, that I had for you.
HF: Ok.
BW: So it just leaves me to say thank you very much for your time, Harry and thank you for doing the interview.
HF: Pleasure.
BW: Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Fearns
Creator
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Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-24
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFearnsH170724, PFearnsH1701
Format
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00:59:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Fearns was born and lived in Barnsley South Yorkshire. He left school at 16 and joined the Prudential Insurance Company as a door to door premiums collector before joining the Royal Air Force in 1944 as a flight engineer. Following initial training at St John’s Wood London and Newquay, Harry completed his training at RAF Stormy Down and RAF St Athan. During training he worked on Lancaster Mk1 and Mk3 aircraft being modified to operate in the Far East, although the war ended before Harry joined an operational squadron. Harry was posted to No 230 Operational Conversion Unit at RAF Lindholme in 1947 where his main recollection was clearing the runways of snow and ice during the very severe winter of 1946/7. From there he was posted to 100 Squadron at RAF Hemswell where he converted to Lincolns although he recalled a preference for the Lancaster. During 1947 the squadron carried out a number of night and daytime exercises, live firing and bombing range practices. After a short period with 97 Squadron, Harry was demobbed late in 1947 and returned to The Prudential Insurance Company before commencing a career in local housing.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jim Sheach
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales--Bridgend
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
England--Yorkshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Cornwall (County)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1946
1947
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
flight engineer
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Lincoln
RAF Hemswell
RAF Lindholme
RAF St Athan
RAF Stormy Down
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/860/11102/AHarrisNG160128.2.mp3
617dde8eedd97b1d29cf4bc164b586a4
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Title
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Harris, Neil
Neil Gibson Harris
N G Harris
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Neil Harris (b. 1920, 56027 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 578 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harris, NG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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BW: Alright. This is Brian Wright, I am interviewing Flight Lieutenant Brian Wright DFC of Bomber Command on Thursday, the 28th of January 2016 at his home in Lidham and the time is twenty past three in the afternoon. Just to start us with a formal question, if you wouldn’t mind so, could you just confirm your full name, rank on leaving and your service number please?
NH: Neil Gibson Harris, 56027, Flight Lieutenant.
BW: Ok. And I believe you are born in November 1920 in Bournemouth.
NH: 27/11/1920, yes.
BW: What was your family like, you lived with your parents, of course, did you have any brothers or sisters?
NH: Yes, I had two brothers and one sister we, fairly wide range, my eldest brother was nine years older than me and my sister was six years younger than me. So, was a spread of fifteen years between us, we are a working-class family, thank you, but very close.
BW: And what was the area like where you were growing up, was it [unclear]?
NH: Very pleasant indeed, oh, suburban, but very pleasant. Although basically a lower middle-class type area.
BW: And you were at school in Bournemouth during that time?
NH: Yes.
BW: I understand that you left school at fourteen.
NH: Fourteen, school called East Howe.
BW: East Howe.
NH: Yes.
BW: And did you have any qualifications?
NH: No, there weren’t, there were no qualifications available in those days. Not at fourteen, no, just, you just left school at fourteen and started working. And I went to work in the East Dorset brickworks as an office boy but by the end of nine months, I was rang into [unclear] office and my salary went, my wages went from seven and six to fifteen schillings, the works manager didn’t, gave me all his work to do [laughs]
BW: Just [unclear] you with it.
NH: So, I went from there to Bowmakers, which is a banking facilities company in Bournemouth, where I upgraded my position quite a bit, I was a proper clerk, a junior clerk.
BW: And from there I understand you went into the civil service.
NH: No, not the civil service, no, I went straight into the Air Force from there.
BW: Oh, I see, so you were [unclear]
NH: As an apprentice, as an apprentice. No, I’ve never been in the civil service, No, I went, that was, I was fifteen when I went to Bowmakers and I was nearly seventeen when I joined the RAF as an apprentice at Halton.
BW: Ok, and this would be 1937, so that would be
NH: That would be 1930, no, earlier, yes, ’37, that’s right, yes, ’37, September ’37.
BW: And what attracted you to join the RAF, what was your interest in that?
NH: Well, there were half a dozen or so, junior clerks, they all had had benefit of grammar school type of education, which is different to the one that I had and I, three or four of them were interested in the RAF, two of them, like myself, became apprentices, and one of them became an acting private officer
BW: I see.
NH: And a man named Haynes, he was a Battle of Britain pilot eventually, he was killed eventually too, got a DFC, shot down five, after that I don’t know anything about him but he didn’t survive the war, that’s all I know.
BW: A shame. And so, what prompted you to join the RAF, did you sense that the war was coming or did you [unclear]?
NH: Well, I think It’s the effect of three or four of us talking about the RAF and doing quite a nice job, had a pleasant working situation at Bowmakers but we wanted more excitement, I think. And of course I wanted more education, I, leaving school at fourteen I still felt I’d liked to have gone to a public school, there’s no chance of me doing that but RAF Halton provided a fairly good substitute, we had school and workshops and plenty of sport, which is what I wanted.
BW: And was there a good social life as well?
NH: Oh, no, social life, no, you weren’t allowed out [laughs], no, there’s three years hard regime but you had plenty of sports, but never saw a girl [laughs], no, we were all frustrated [unclear] [laughs]
BW: And so you
NH: It was a good training, excellent, marvellous training of course.
BW: And so, your trade in the engineering branch was what?
NH: I was a fitter 2A, a fitter to airframe.
BW: Ok.
NH: I managed to get in because the expansion scheme had started and the entries became much larger so I [unclear] an examination of three set papers, quite large, got a couple of them here somewhere, and I’m quite impressed by the standards that they required. So I did a lot of private study, my second brother was a very clever man, young man, he helped me a lot, he was an, he was a really highly, he became a highly qualified engineer and he helped me a lot, I managed to scrape in and but by that time, entries were getting to something like nine hundred or a thousand, so two entries a year, and of course the expansion scheme has started because of the threat of Hitler and there were, so, we were, before that time it was, you were called fitter twos and you did both engines and airframes, they split us up, the aircrafts were becoming more complicated and so you either became airframe, a fitter airframe or a fitter engine and then you did your three year, it’s a three year training, you did your three year training either as a fitter to airframe or a fitter to engine, and then the scheme was that after you’d been out on a normal squadron, and had practical experienced, you went back and did another year and that would be a conversion, if you did airframes before then you did a year on engines or vice versa so then you became a fitter one, so that’s basically how the training worked.
BW: And so, you get a good grounding not just in the structure of the aircraft but also the powerplants as well.
NH: You would, by that time but of course the war intervened from my entry and we stayed as fitter 2A’s of course but I got off and I took the easier route and managed to get onto aircrew. And but they wouldn’t let me, as soon as I finished my training, I volunteered for aircrew, but they wouldn’t release me until enough people, the war started by then but they wouldn’t release me to go onto aircrew duties until they had enough people in from, to be converted to trades, you know, as engineering trades and I could leave, so it took me nearly eighteen months from the time of being selected to being called up.
BW: So they needed enough people to be in the pool to replace you
NH: That’s right, that’s
BW: Because they could allow the engineers to move on.
NH: Yes
BW: [unclear]
NH: That’s right, yes.
BW: And what attracted you think to aircrew, was is, there simply more money, cause there was flying pay [unclear] or was it [unclear]?
NH: I wanted the glamour.
BW: Alright.
NH: A little bit it was there but I [laughs], I wanted to be a fighter pilot.
BW: I see.
NH: Yeah.
BW: And did that involve more tests and [unclear]?
NH: Not until you got onto, when I was eventually called up of course then by that time of course there the whole process was so huge that there are bottlenecks and so every stage it took time because you had to wait until you could move on to the next stage, the, either, whether held up training or something of that sort so, we start off at the ITW, which in my case was, well, first of all it started off in London, at the air crew receiving centre and we were all there, we live, we ate at the zoo, I remember,
BW: At London Zoo.
NH: At London Zoo, and lived in flats, in luxury flats in North West London and marched to the zoo for our meals.
BW: Right.
NH: But that, again, took a long time before we moved on and the next stage was to go on to the Initial Training Wing, where you did an eight week course and learned navigation and various other skills but there was a bottleneck there, I remember I went down to Brighton for a, just to occupy time, and eventually, although I’d been called up in November, November ’41, that’s right, and I was at Wick at the time when, as a fitter, on the, we were protecting the convoys coming into Liverpool but we’d been stationed at Stornoway on the Outer Hebrides,
BW: That’s where Wick is, is that right?
NH: Pardon?
BW: That’s where Wick is.
NH: No, Wick, no, Wick is on the north east coast.
BW: Ok.
NH: And now we moved over there with Hudsons, we had started with Ansons and changed over to Hudsons, when we moved up to Stornoway and then from Stornoway, we moved over to Wick. But whilst we were at Wick, I was called up for aircrew duties and that was in November ’41, I happened to be on leave at the time in Bournemouth so I got recalled from Bournemouth to Wick, which was to go back to London [laughs] to start my aircrew duties and as I say, then, we had, we hung around in Regent’s Park waiting for the next stage, well the first stage of training and that didn’t happen, this was in November ’41 and we didn’t get to Stratford until about the end of January, February ’42 and then we had this eight week course at Stratford learning navigation, doing drill, all RT and all the rest of it.
BW: So you travelled in a very short time to the length and breadth of the country cause you’ve gone from a short period of time in Brighton right up to the north of Scotland to work on aircraft protecting the convoys and then, across the other side of Scotland, then back down again, and called for [unclear] training
NH: Well, just go back a little bit, when I left, when I graduated from Halton, well, I graduated as a, what’s the right word, as an aircraftsman first class, normally I’d have an entry at, say, of a hundred, well take a hundred, apprentices leaving but ten would pass out as leading aircraftsmen, ten or fifteen would pass out as leading aircraftsmen, aircraftsmen first class, about sixty or so would pass out as aircraftsmen first class and the remainder would pass out as AC2 but the rate of pay was quite significant, a leading aircraftsman would get forty two schillings a week, which was a big rise from five and six pence,
BW: Yeah, absolutely.
NH: Yeah. So, I passed out an AC1 which is 31, 31 of 31 and six pence a week, which is quite good, I, [laughs].
BW: And was that more than you were earning in the bank previously?
NH: Oh, yes, oh yes, in the bank I was getting seventeen and six, I think it was, might have gonna up, to nearly a pound, but no, seventeen to six a week, yes,
BW: So you almost doubled
NH: No, I, and of course, as an apprentice, I’m only getting three schillings a week, for the first two weeks and then five and six pence for the last week, that’s the third week. And then when I passed out as an AC1, I would have jumped up to thirty-one and six pence a week, which is magnificent,
BW: I believe at some point during your early training, you caught pneumonia and had to be sort of
NH: Oh that was before, that was at the end of my training,
BW: Oh, I see.
NH: Yes, this was, the war had started October, November, I caught pneumonia almost [unclear] they had to, they called my mother to come up because they thought I wouldn’t live but M & B was the new drug which they’d produced and that saved my life I think because but always touch and go anyway, when I recovered and I came out, my entry had, the whole thing was telescoped, you see, did a three year course, when the war started, all sports afternoons were stopped, we worked longer hours, and the whole thing was telescoped from the three years to a much shorter one but so we were on that at the time that I went into hospital with pneumonia and when I came out, my entry had finished and they’d gone, so I was left on my own, they gave me some Christmas leave and when I came back, I just studied on my own for a few weeks and passed out on my own as an AC1. I probably had passed out as an AC2 [laughs]. So, I’ve been lucky that way.
BW: So, there was no parade for you then, unfortunately, they just allowed you
NH: No, I just, no.
BW: So you graduated [unclear]
NH: I went down to Thorney Island under 48 Squadron, which is at Coastal Command, we had Ansons then, as I said, and then we, as an AC1. Is it all getting a bit garbled for you?
BW: No, no, that’s perfectly fine. So, during your time at Thorney Island then, which is near Chichester,
NH: Yeah.
BW: You were still as a tradesman, you were an aircraftman
NH: That’s right
BW: First class
NH: Yeah.
BW: What was it like there, what sort of air, you said Ansons then, have other aircraft there too? [unclear] and Blenheims, would you work on them at all or?
NH: No, only Ansons.
BW: Ah, ok.
NH: Yeah. And of course we were there to protect the shipping coming up to Southampton and to the docks along the south coast but then, when the invasion of the low countries came, it was too dangerous and the shipping was moved up to Liverpool, Liverpool and Glasgow and so we followed the shipping up to Liverpool and we were stationed at Hooton Park.
BW: I see. So around the time of the Battle of Britain and when the invasion was looking imminent during the summer of 1940,
NH: Yeah.
BW: You and your squadron, 48 Squadron, actually moved up to Liverpool.
NH: To Liverpool and we were there for about a year I think before we moved up to, because then there were all bombed badly and the submarine menace became bigger and we moved, and so the shipping was moved further up into Glasgow and so we moved up to Stornoway,
BW: I see.
NH: And then to Wick. Don’t quite know why we did that, we were on Hudsons by that time.
BW: How did you find them to work on?
NH: Well of course [unclear] much, they’d hydraulics of course which you know, on the Anson it was a wind up undercarriage, took a hundred and twenty turns to get the wheels up, well of course there was much more hydraulics on the Hudsons, very modern by comparison with the Anson.
BW: And so, you mentioned earlier about having completed your trade training, you were called up for aircrew which is in November ‘41 thereabouts, did you apply to be a pilot or did you?
NH: Yes, I wanted to be a pilot, yeah, I wanted to be a glamourous pilot and go out with girls [laughs]
BW: [laughs] And what happened to enable the change [unclear]?
NH: Well you see that, everything, as I said, was taking so long with bottlenecks everywhere, they decided to change from being a two pilot crew to one pilot and introduced bomb aimers and bomb aimers very often failed pilots, [unclear] capable of getting an aircraft back perhaps in an emergency as the pilot was no longer capable, that was the, so, the some man crew then became a pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator, engineer and two gunners, that’s a Halifax or Lancaster.
BW: Ok.
NH: And so then of course they had a business of what they called grading and so all of us who wanted to be pilots, we had to go to a grading school and fly Tiger Moths and be graded and although we went solo, I did a very poor final test so they graded me down, I’m afraid I messed it up, I made a mess of the spin, that sort of thing but so that was very disappointing but so they transferred me to being a navigator.
BW: I see.
NH: And others who were the same, were either navigators or bomb aimers did navigator or bomb aimer training.
BW: Ok. And so, until this stage you’ve been training on Tiger Moths
NH: Tiger Moths
BW: As a pilot
NH: Yeah
BW: But I believe you were sent abroad to Canada so you
NH: Well then, then of course I went to, yes, that’s right, I went to Rivers, near Winnipeg, went over on the Queen Elisabeth, just newly constructed, that was in, that was in September ’42, yes, September ’42, oh, because of the bottleneck we gone down to Eastbourne for further navigation, for navigation training, so we did a further navigation course down there, that was after we’d failed, we failed to become pilots and went down and became navigators, this is the start of our navigation course at Eastbourne, so did a few weeks there and then we moved across, up to, somewhere near Manchester, where we stayed there before we were shipped up to Glasgow to get onto the Queen Elisabeth.
BW: And what was it like going across to Canada?
NH: Oh, quite good, I mean, we were only a few thousand aircrew going across to, a mixture of pilots and navigators, most of the pilots went down south to Texas or somewhere like that and we went to a place called Mana, called Rivers in Manitoba, in the middle of Canada, about a hundred and twenty miles from Winnipeg and so we were only going out, we were only about two or three thousand I think aircrew under training or going for training. Coming back, I, and I came back on the same boat, we landed in New York, then went to up to Moncton in Canada on the East Coast and then across to, had two or three weeks there, it’s all bottlenecks all the time before we were posted to Rivers at Manitoba, that took a three day rail journey from
BW: Wow.
NH: And we got there about the middle of September.
BW: So just in time before the winter set in.
NH: Just setting in, yes, a week or two later they froze, they sprayed a compound of water and that was the ice rink for the rest of the winter, yeah.
BW: So, did you get much flying in during that time?
NH: Oh yes, yes, yes, in Ansons again, bitterly cold because we had to do astro training was the big feature and we had to open the hatch and these pilots of course shuddered at the cold air coming in but we had to take our, take these, you know, all these [unclear] and stuff, fortunately in Canada, you know, you get these wonderful clear nights, and the stars and everything so visible, it was a, for doing astro navigation, it was ideal.
BW: So you had to
NH: But it was still to bloody cold.
BW: So you actually had to open the hatch mid flying in order to take reading the stars.
NH: Yeah, and take the reading, well, the stars you wanted, yeah. But navigation was simple in Canada because the nights were clear and the days were, cold and brisk, you know, you could see for miles, you could, you get airborne at Rivers, hundred and twenty miles from Winnipeg, and of course you could see Winnipeg because it is, all the lights were still on in Canada
BW: No blackout.
NH: No. And there’s only a few towns there anyway and you knew exactly which town, by the size, so navigation was simple.
BW: What was life like there in general, did you manage to travel out or did you meet any Canadians, at least some aircrew were stationed off base or b&bs and things but presumably you [unclear]
NH: Oh no, we lived, oh no, we were right in the prairies, we just the camp,
BW: So just yourselves and
NH: Place called Brandon, was about twenty five miles away, [unclear] I never went there, once or twice, we did get down to Londa, to Minneapolis [unclear] at Christmas there over the Christmas period but we managed to work our way down there for a, for the Christmas break
BW: And did you stay
NH: Rather special
BW: And did you stay over in hotels and things and [unclear]
NH: No, we stayed with, while went to the US the United States organisation, you know, like the Red cross naffy or whatever but being American at that time was very well appointed, we had written to them before saying we are coming, and they phoned us out, we stayed with a professor, while he was away, on national service, he was a Lieutenant colonel American Air Force but he was a professor at Minneapolis University and we stayed with him, with his wife, five of us.
BW: And was that your crew that you went with then?
NH: No, not, we weren’t crewed up then, we were just five navigators under training.
BW: Ok. And from there you, I believe, you passed out as sergeant observer navigator
NH: Sergeant observer navigator, yes,
BW: You graduated while you were in Canada.
NH: That’s right, yes, came back to Moncton to wait for our journey home, which again was on the Queen Elisabeth from New York. And then back in Glasgow, by avoiding the U-boats, but because we were so fast, they couldn’t, they couldn’t get any nearer but both the Queen Mary and the Queen Elisabeth both scootered across the Atlantic, coming back it was very different than coming out, we brought all the American troops, about fifteen thousand American troops on board.
BW: So this is pretty much at the height of the Atlantic war, then, isn’t it? When the [unclear]
NH: Yes, this is, this would be March ’43 now and we are just beginning to get over the U-boat, we are just beginning to get control of the U-boat menace, it was in ’42 the U-boat menace was at its highest, and it was a serious problem, well still was but we, yeah, we are getting on top of it by the time I came back in ’43.
BW: And so from there you went to
NH: We went to Harrogate, we were all, Harrogate was the assembly point and we were all assembled, officers went into the Majestic and sergeants went into the Grand Hotel in Harrogate, do you know them?
BW: Yes, I’ve been
NH: And the Majestic
BW: I’ve been to one, yes.
NH: Yeah. So
BW: Very nice [unclear] hotels
NH: We didn’t mind that at all, this was March, we had a couple of weeks leave in Bournemouth and back and then we were kept hanging around again, waiting to go on to our onto the OTU, which is the next step in our training, operational training unit, and that took some time, I remember, in order to occupy us they sent us up to Perth, to a flying training school that flew Tiger Moths around the, the name of the river near Perth, do you know it? Tay, is it, Tay?
BW: Tay.
NH: Lovely, anyway, lovely week, I think it was only a week or ten days, just a way of keeping us amused, before we, eventually we did get to the operational training which was at Kinloss, in northern Scotland.
BW: And was that number 19 OTU, [unclear]
NH: I don’t remember the number, [unclear] on my log book. But it’s, yes, operational at Kinloss and we were on Whitleys, so we are on a different aeroplane now. And this will be, by the time we did that, it’s August, August ’43, so it’s already taken me from November ’41 and now we are in, at August ’43,I got my navigator’s brevy but I still haven’t got, I’m still not operationally trained, that we did on a Whitley.
BW: Right. So it’s taken you, as you say, approximately two years, they needed two years
NH: yeah.
BW: To get to that operational training unit.
NH: Yeah. That’s right, yeah. And that finished for about the end of October, beginning of November ’43,
BW: Ok.
NH: So I think it be the end of October, we were posted, we were crewed up there, that was the big feature and I, you all join up together, you look around and you see who you’d like to fly with. I joined up with a chap named, sergeant, he was a sergeant, Sergeant Wilkinson, we liked the look of one another I suppose, so he and I joined and that was the usual pattern, you and the pilot joined up and you skited around and gathered in the rest of the crew which at this stage we would be five, wireless operator, gunner and a gunner.
BW: And this I believe commonly took place in just a big hangar, they amalgamated all together
NH: No, that’s right, yes
BW: And they just left them
NH: Left us to sort ourselves out, yes, a funny system.
BW: And so, you crew up with Sergeant Wilkinson,
NH: Sergeant Wilkinson, yeah.
BW: And do you recall the names of the other crew members?
NH: No, I can’t. No, I’m afraid I can’t. Oh, George Dugray, yeah, a French Canadian, oh, that was later, no, he’s the bomb aimer, oh yes, he was there too. Did George Dugray? Anyway, he joined us on the next one, the heavy conversion unit, when we got on to the Halifaxes.
BW: So
NH: He was a French-Canadian bomb aimer
BW: So if you were five crewmen initially, what were going to be flying at that point when you initially met Wilkinson and Dugray?
NH: Well, we only knew that we would probably Halifaxes or Lancasters were most likely.
BW: I see.
NH: Well the possibility of a Mosquitoes if we were lucky.
BW: So, where were you when you were looking for your crew and when you were getting yourselves together, was this at Burne or was this elsewhere?
NH: Oh no, this was at the operational training unit at Kinloss
BW: Kinloss.
NH: At Kinloss,
BW: I see.
NH: Yes, that’s when you came together
BW: I see.
NH: And up to that time we’d all been navigators but as you know you are split up and you find your crew, so with them we flew as a crew then, pilot, navigator, did we have a bomb aimer? I suppose we did have Dugray as bomb aimer, wireless operator, not an engineer, gunner. That’s right, yes, that’ll be it. That’s the five, isn’t it? One gunner, engineer, no, one gunner, bomb aimer, navigator, pilot. And wireless operator. So then, then you had to do, you went through the whole, all the daylight flying, night flying and of course very different flying conditions in Kinloss in Scotland, the blackout and very few aids and it was a very difficult and hazardous training period and a lot collided into the mountains through inexperience cause that’s what we were, totally inexperienced and there was a lot of fatalities there. So, it wasn’t an easy time.
BW: What sort of aids were you working with as a navigator then at this point?
NH: I’d be twenty-one, twenty one.
BW: What sort of navigational aids or equipment were you using at this time?
NH: Oh, hardly any
BW: So was
NH: Radio, we could get the old radio bearing, navigation and that’s it
BW: Was it all dead reckoning
NH: Otherwise dead reckoning, yeah, and that was one of the troubles as where people, they got lost and they sended through cloud and hit the high ground.
BW: And roughly how long were you on the OTU?
NH: That’s about six to eight weeks, we went the end of August, it’ll be eight weeks and we finished round about the end of October, beginning of November.
BW: So, this is October, November ’43.
NH: That’s right, yeah, yeah. And then of course we still hadn’t finished, then we got to go to the heavy conversion unit, flying the sort of aeroplanes we were going to fly on operations, which in our case was the Halifax and that was when we were posted to Rufforth to a heavy conversion unit at Rufforth which is about four miles out of York.
BW: And you were onto Halifaxes at that point.
NH: Yeah.
BW: Did you acquire any more crew members at all [unclear]?
NH: Oh yes, that’s where the engineer came, and the second gunner, that’s it. Yes, that’s right, Dugray, he did join us up at [unclear] and so were five when we went down to Rufforth and then we were joined by the other, by the mid upper gunner and by the flight engineer.
BW: Do you happen to recall their names at all or?
NH: No. I can’t.
BW: That’s alright.
NH: I can’t. Hardly anyone finished, I was the only one that finished the op, a full round of ops, they all disappeared one way or another. Well, you see, Wilkinson who I became, who became a good friend, splendid, a good looking chap too, and he became, he was going to go to university, he, when we finished our training at Rufforth, preparing to go to a squadron, we had finally finished our training and now we are fully qualified but it was quite usual for pilots to go on an experience exercise and he was sent on to do a run on on an operation on Berlin and that was the end of him and so we didn’t have a pilot and that kept us waiting again.
BW: And do you recall who eventually came
NH: Yes, I’ve got his name, what’s his name? Oh Gosh, my memory’s gone, I’m afraid,
BW: That’s alright.
NH: It’s in the logbook, he was a flying officer, so now as a sergeant I was being teamed up with a flying officer, who’d been posted from Hemswell. Well, Hemswell was a station, was a Bomber Command station in 4 Group and it achieved a terrible reputation for not pressing on to the target and Harris, the Bomber Command chief came up, called them all sorts of names, and closed the station down, Hemswell, everybody was posted, and I got one of those.
BW: I see.
NH: And so we did our, we did [unclear] game, so we had to train together again on the Halifax from Rufforth and that took us until well after Christmas, during which time I met my wife, who, the girl that became my wife.
BW: And how did you meet her?
NH: Oh, I met her at a dance, and she’d gone with, oh, she had arranged to meet a girlfriend at the Grey Rooms in York, I don’t know if you know it.
BW: No, I don’t.
NH: Oh, it was a lovely place, oh, we all got there, all the, York was full of aircrew, Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians particularly and Brits and a few Americans and of course there wasn’t much in York then, everything was closed down but there was a lovely dance place, the Dugrey Rooms, and that’s where we all went, to meet girls and that’s where I met my wife.
US: Sorry, after Williams your pilot, you then had Houston.
NH: Williams, Williams, that’s right. Flying officer Williams, he was the one who was, came to Rufforth from Hemswell we, I having lost Wilkinson and what you say the name was?
US: Williams.
NH: Williams. Oh, he had, I eventually found out he was called Turnback Williams, we are not going to the target? I’ll on that, busy
BW: Part of the reason Harris talk to these guys.
NH: Yeah. Yeah, that’s right so I did all my, I completed all my training with, as a, with him, with Williams, and from there at the end from February 44, now is it? End of 44, yes, Paul Williams of course, when he was sent out on his second Dickey for experience, that was at the height of the Berlin raids, and the losses were huge, we’d been, we’d been on those of course, if he’d come back from his, from his trip of experience
BW: Second Dickey means like a second pilot
NH: Second pilot experience, yes, yeah, so he didn’t come back and I wrote to his father and I got a nice, I might have it somewhere a nice letter from his father who is a stockbroker in London and anyway so I saw that with Williams then we completed another bit of training before we went off to the squadron which I say was about the end of February ’44.
BW: And this was the newly formed 578 Squadron.
NH: And that was the newly formed, yes, they were only formed about three months before
BW: And they were specifically
NH: From Snaith.
BW: And they were specifically flying Halifaxes Mark III as they were one of the first
NH: I was jolly lucky to get on one of those cause it was just as good as the Lancaster, radial engines Bristol and they could get up to the required height and carry a similar amount of bombs, splendid.
BW: So, your first sortie with 578 would be in February as you say,
NH: In March
BW: In March
NH: Then in February, then again the training was so much, I mean they wouldn’t escort, again got ourselves familiarised with the Mark Iii and done a couple of training runs before we were then considered to be operational and that took place in March and it was during that time the Nuremberg raid and of the pilots at Burton on the squadron, he got a posthumous VC.
BW: Did you know him?
NH: No, I didn’t know him, no, no, I’d only been on the squadron a week or so but I didn’t know him, I know, no, I didn’t know him, I didn’t really know him, I didn’t know anybody really, we kept to ourselves a
BW: You tend to associate with your crew if anything
NH: Just with the crew, didn’t mix much with anybody else, you stuck pretty close into the crew and as I had a girlfriend now in York I scuttled off there [laughs].
BW: So, it was looking pretty serious with your girlfriend
NH: Already started to look serious, yes, yeah, we got engaged in April, after I’d done about five operations. I took her down to Bournemouth to meet my family.
BW: Right. And so, what were the accommodation facilities like at Burne, this is where your 578 Squadron
NH: They weren’t bad, it was a brand-new place, you know, all Hudson.
BW: Were you billeted with the crew?
NH: Oh yes, yes, I, we were in huts of course but as sergeants we had little privileges, the sergeant’s mess and that sort of thing, reasonably comfortable of course, we were well-fed as aircrew, the local people, we always had eggs before we went and that sort of thing, things which people couldn’t get on the ration we had plenty of, plenty of chips too cause at the age of twenty one, twenty two I [unclear] of chips [laughs]
BW: [unclear]
NH: [unclear]
BW: And were you the only crew in the billet sometimes or there were two crews in there or?
NH: I think we were the only one, as far as I can remember we were the only one.
BW: And at this time there was a CO in charge
NH: Yes.
BW: Wing Commander Wilkey Wilkinson, do you recall him?
NH: Oh, I do very well, yes, he’s one chap I do remember, and I’ve never been a hero worshiper but I would think I would put him into that category. Marvellous chap, good looking, tall, great sense of humour, great, young, handsome, had every quality, but you knew that if Wilkinson was flying it was gonna be a bad one, he’d only, he wouldn’t take the easy ones, he’d always took the bad ones, great leader, he was on his second tour, too, very nice chap too because then of course I, to going on a bit further, I was with Williams, I did two operations with Williams, I didn’t remember what it was I didn’t like but I didn’t like it, I went to see Williams in great trepidation but I didn’t know what Williams I never spoke to Wing Commanders, they were far too elevated, but I went to see him and so I did my night flying with Williams so I said, we must have talked a bit, I can’t remember, so he said right leave with me, I’ll fix you up with somebody else and I went then to, I was teamed up then with Houston, Jock Houston, and we stayed together all the time, finished together, got commissioned together, got a DFC together.
BW: And so, you when you went from your crew flying with Williams at this point
NH: Yes
BH: To make the change to another crew
NH: Yes, the others all, I [unclear], yes, yeah.
BW: [unclear]
NH: [unclear]
BW: [unclear]
NH: Well, Williams did finish his tour, yes, but I don’t know who he flew, he finished the tour.
BW: The other members of your crew didn’t pick up your sense of
NH: No,
BW: [unclear]
NH: Not as far as I know. No, no.
BW: And you mentioned about Wilkinson, there’s a description here which seems to chime with what you commented about it and it’s only a short description if I can read it to you, it says, he was described by those who knew him as a tall, loose end fellow, the first impression that a stranger might have of him was that he was rather irresponsible, care-free, vague individual, but on closer acquaintance he would seem that he had one of the kindest, gentlest and most sympathetic
NH: Oh, I think that was pretty accurate
BW: Could possess
NH: Yes
BW: He had the knack of inspiring confidence in his crew, when flying I can’t remember anything disturbing him, he was huge with his men
NH: No, no. There’s my little story in that book he’s flying a strange aircraft, an unusual aircraft and he’s got an army man, and army major alongside him but oh, they couldn’t get the flaps down and the army major says to Wilkinson, can you fly this without flaps? He said, well, you are just about to find out [laughs].
BW: And it says of him because he was awarded a DSO he said, he inspired powers of leadership, great skill and determination, qualities which have earned him much success, his devoted squadron commander, his great drive and tactical abilities used in large measure to the high standard of operation to assume the squadron
NH: Yeah, he did, yeah, briefing were always made a pleasure by him being here, he made them quite different, we quite looked forward to his briefing
BW: And when you, you mentioned about him when he going out on a bad raid, were you aware that if he briefed it, it was gonna be a bad one or was it the case [unclear] the raids?
NH: No, not particularly, no, but you knew that if he was on it, it wouldn’t be an easy one.
BW: But he, he always gave the briefing whatever the raid was.
NH: Oh yes, oh yes.
BW: There was only a few at the time
NH: That’s right, yeah, yeah. Yes, I remember his briefing, that is one thing I do remember quite well. Always something to look forward to. I remember a young WAAF officer looking at him I think, Gosh, I’d like a young woman to look at me like that [laughs].
BW: So, by now you are on the early part of your tour and initially it looks like you got operations mainly over Germany, are there any other particular raids through March that you recall?
NH: No, they were all a great big jumble mainly, I, oh, there is one when we lost a lot of aeroplanes.
BW: That night be Nuremberg presumably.
NH: No, not Nuremberg, I didn’t do Nuremberg, there is some, somewhere like, oh, retro memory for names, the size of the Ruhr, a fairly long trip and I remember coming out, they’d briefed us to come down from the target area right down to five thousand feet, it seemed odd tactic, I remember going up with another navigator to Nuremberg, I don’t like this and he said, I wish we weren’t doing this one and he didn’t come back. We lost six that night. So, I don’t know what that tactic was all about.
BW: So, at this time, when you
NH: Oh, I’m trying to remember the name, that, Karlsruhe,
BW: Karlsruhe. And so at this when you were doing operations, you’ve gone from the billet to the ops room to be briefed, you’ve had your briefing, just talk me through then what you would do from there in terms of boarding the aircraft, the checks you would do, what sort of things would be going on then.
NH: Well, we had our own, quite a lot of instruments, we had Gee for example, the bomb aimer would have his stuff but I would have all my charts, gee charts, ordinary plotting charts, what were they called? [unclear] and then the Gee charts, all rather luminous, astro navigation, [unclear] anyway, waste of time most of the time but always had to do it, sextant, all the stuff had to be checked and so, you know, that took up quite a long time, you did that some with the pilot, checking the routes and marking off certain points on it.
BW: And H2S was coming in at this time.
NH: Oh, we didn’t have H2S.
BW: That wasn’t on your aircraft.
NH: We didn’t have it, no,
BW: And was the Gee equipment located right where you position were?
NH: Right in front like that
BW: Ok.
NH: Had a table, table, yeah.
BW: In some aircraft [unclear] different.
NH: And that, that was an incredibly, wonderful instrument I had, of course the Germans were jamming it as much as they could and you’d lose it, you’d, what it did help you to do was to get an accurate wind, cause that’s so incredibly important, if you got an accurate wind then doing jet reconning isn’t going to be too bad and you could get Gee fixes right up to inside the Dutch coast so it gave you a whole string of fixes and a whole comprehension of the wind you know was established by the time you got there. And then, the same thing coming back, you, I’d have, I’d be searching madly to get the signals eventually appearing and it’s marvellous when the, when they just started to appear on your radar screen, and you’d, and you’d get a proper fix, because when you tried astro navigation or even wireless, there were so many errors involved.
BW: Was your pilot good in terms of sticking to the course? Was he [unclear] following your instructions?
NH: Oh yes, of course, oh yes, oh yes, very good, you know, if I take an astro shot, they had to keep very steady because you have a steady platform to get, I don’t know if you know about sextant?
BW: Yes.
NH: You know, yes, getting the star dive into the bubble and holding it there, if the plane lurches up you’ve lost the, it, you’ve gotta get it back again,
BW: And so, you found that you worked quite well presumably [unclear]
NH: Oh, very well, with Houston, terrible memory for names, I even forget my own sometimes
BW: What was it like actually in the environment of a Halifax then, was it pretty roomy, has a reputation of being a fairly roomy aircraft.
NH: Not bad, not bad really
BW: [unclear]
NH: No, no, not when you compare it [unclear] like the Whitley
BW: And I believe the heating, say for example in a Lancaster kept the wireless operator and the navigator pretty warm
NH: yes
BW: Is it similar in a Halifax or not?
NH: Ah, yeah, pretty I was never cold, I never remember being cold,
BW: How did it feel in your flying kit? Was it [unclear]
NH: I didn’t wear much, had a Mae West on, and a parachute harness of course and that was, oh, and an aircrew sweater, and that was about it, don’t [unclear], I think flying boots, yes, yeah, flying boots, cause you could if you were, if you bailed out and you landed, you could cut the top off and they looked like ordinary shoes, ordinary boots
BW: And so you were pretty comfortable in the interior of the Halifax.
NH: Oh, pretty, reasonably comfortable.
BW:
NH: Yes, yes, I had a good desk and all the instruments that I needed. Wind thing, what you call, wind setting, forgot what they called, wind, don’t they use that much, you had to be [unclear] sort of view the sea at eighteen thousand feet, you can’t do that
BW: Did you find that you had to use oxygen much if you were above [unclear] feet or?
NH: Oh yes, about ten thousand feet, most certainly.
BW: Were most of your ops above that [unclear]?
NH: Oh yes, as soon as you get to, well pretty well from five thousand feet or even before, I can’t remember exactly but you certainly wouldn’t want to be [unclear] oxygen above ten thousand feet
BW: You noted as well one particular date you were in the air on the night of D-Day.
NH: Yes, yes.
BW: Do you recall the briefing for D-Day primarily?
NH: No
BW: Were you aware that is was gonna be the start of the invasion?
NH: Well, we were all suspicious but nobody knew anything definite but of course so much everybody knew that D-Day was gonna come soon but that anything definite not until we, well, we were, the target was an easy one on the Northern Coast of France, just inside, gun batteries of some sort, and we bombed that but as we are coming back, and as we are coming back near [unclear], both the gunners shouted out, all the shipping that they could see and so all this shipping was just on the invasion, that was June the 6th.
BW: What sort of time would that be, was it early morning?
NH: About three or four o’clock in the morning. It be in the logbook there. Be about that time.
BW: The gun battery that you mentioned, was it Mont Fleury,
NH: Right.
BW: And that was covering Gold Beach, which was one of the British invasion beaches.
NH: Yeah, yeah. Cause we did two or three, Montgomery, that was later on, after the armies had got established but got held up by the Germans and Montgomery requested Bomber Command to drop their bombs on the German, where the Germans were and we did that, we got a letter of thanks from him because that’s form where the armies could move on.
BW: Were you made aware of the results of the bombing on that particular D-Day mission?
NH: Not really, no, not until we got this letter from Montgomery thanking us for, yeah, I can’t think that we got any particular, no. Of course, we were taking photographs all the time, and we were given some sort of marking for the accuracy and the standard and that was posted up on the boards.
BW: Did it feel like a competition, where you
NH: A little bit like that, oh yes, a little bit like that. Bomb aimers, you know, we, in that book [unclear] claims that we were used for these targets because we had a bomb aiming accuracy record.
BW: Quite [unclear]
NH: No, but, I think that, what is, my God, the insignia of the squadron has got
US: An arrow
NH: A arrow, isn’t it? A bomb aiming accuracy or something is called.
US: Just called accuracy.
NH: Accuracy, yes, yes. So we had this supposedly reputation. I don’t know [laughs].
BW: Well, the gun position that was there at Gold Beach was actually a target given to the Green Howards, the army regiment that was to assault that.
NH: Oh, was that? Oh, was it?
BW: And that particular action was where sergeant major Stanley Hollis got the VC, [unclear] boxes near that battery. So coincidentally the raid that you were on happened to be the target which sergeant major Hollis was the only VC on D-Day.
NH: That’s interesting too. Yeah, yeah.
BW: There was only one [unclear] I can see on that raid and that was a Halifax flown by squadron leader Watson
NH: OH yes.
BW: Who was shot down
NH: yes.
BW: [unclear]
NH: I think I’ve seen the name but I don’t know him. No, no.
BW: So, at this time during April, May, June, most of your targets are in France
NH: Yes
BW: With the idea of supporting D-Day [unclear]
NH: Yeah, D-Day the invasion, yes, yes,
BW: And that continues
NH: [unclear] targets of course, by comparison with the Ruhr and Berlin
BW: And by easy that I assume that they were lighter, more lightly defended, is that right?
NH: Not so much that they’re but quicklier have a long, the big thing somewhere like Nuremberg or Berlin, even if you got to, you had a long trail back to UK and the German fighters knew that and would wait for the trail of bombers coming out of the target and shooting them out then but so and they had a long time to do it whereas going to somewhere Paris or somewhere like that, they didn’t have that length of time to do it.
BW: did you encounter many fighters that you [unclear]?
NH: No, I can’t remember, well, I think the most famous of course was the concentration, I did a daylight on the Ruhr in September and then you saw the concentration, what a concentration of bombers looked like cause we flew at night and we didn’t see how it really looked. But on this occasion we flew daylight to the Ruhr in September and I flew with a strange crew, which is slightly unsettling, their navigator had gone sick or something, and but then you saw aircraft colliding and of course you saw all the bombs dropping from other aircraft dropping so, you know, getting so close to releasing their bombs on you and the gunners would be shouting out, you know, he’s right over, he’s right over us now, and quite often it did happen that bombs from one aircraft hit another one, underneath.
BW: Did it happen on that occasion when you were?
NH: No, no, I never saw it actually happen,
BW: Just [unclear].
NH: No, I did, I did see aircraft, the other thing was collisions, when you got several hundred aircraft, well, at nighttime you don’t know what has happened, whether there’s a collision or whether they’re being shot by ack-ack, but at daylight you could see and I did see a collision, two aircraft hitting one another,
BW: And what, how could you describe what [unclear]?
NH: No, I can’t, we turned away and it was gone but didn’t see anybody come out.
BW: And so during [unclear]
NH: No explosion, that’s all.
BW: And so, during the raid on Stuttgart, during the daylight, could you see, did you get a chance to see clearly the formation? The bomber formation?
NH: Oh, not really, no, you know, of course you know that they are at night because you get into their slipstream, so you know and that’s what you want, of course you want to be close, you don’t want to be isolated that’s when they can pick you off, the whole object of flying in a gaggle or stream was to protect one another with your, what’s the stuff? Window and, you know, confuse the enemy defenses radar so you were conscious at nighttime, but you didn’t see the full horror of it.
BW: And what was your impression during the daylight raid?
NH: Well, I thought, how the hell can you get through that lot? Approaching the Ruhr, this is a lovely September afternoon and you could see the smoke hovering over the Ruhr from such a long way away, I got a feeling we could see it almost from the Dutch coast, and then you think, then of course within the smoke, which is just the puffs of smoke from the ack-ack, you could see the brusts of the showers, well, there’s no penetration, you cannot penetrate that lost, but looks, it probably looks worst than it really is.
BW: In each case your pilot kept on, there was no consideration of turning back [unclear] target?
NH: Oh no, no, but no, no, we were, I think we were pretty that way, we did what we had to do, and although it is nerve-racking when the bomb aimer is insistent on, you know, my God, why doesn’t he press the bloody button? It was he said, bomb’s gone, yeah, that we could turn away.
BW: Were there any occasions where you had to make a second run over the target or not?
NH: Not exactly the, I ‘m not quite sure but I do know that we’ve been approaching the target and we’ve been told to hold off, the Pathfinder, the master bomber is directing us from underneath, usually in something like a Mosquito and he is calling us by our codename whatever, main force, main force, whatever the code, and he said and he’d be telling us, the bomb, overshoot the red TI’s or bomb the green markers or in one case he couldn’t tell because of the smoke and he couldn’t get accurate and he told the whole force to orbit, that was a nasty experience too,
BW: And the whole force at this stage [unclear]
NH: Would have to turn and wait and come in again until he could give the instructions on which markers to attack, they were of course people like, who has got the VC?
BW: Cheshire?
NH: Cheshire, yeah. Incredible people they were. They would stay, I mean, they would stay on the target for the whole time, going round and round, giving the directions to the main force, and asking for new TI’s or something like that if he wanted it.
BW: So, moving on from the D-Day operations, the squadron was then tasked with hitting the V-Weapon sites
NH: Yes, we, those were fairly easy targets, just inside the Dutch and French coast, yeah. We [unclear] several of those, three or four of those.
BW: Do you recall much about what was explained to you about the targets, we know now that they were being [unclear], did you know that?
NH: I don’t think so, I can’t remember, no, I just know that they were, well eventually of course when the flying bombs came up cause they came up, they came off fairly earlier, in was about August wasn’t it? July, August? Well, after, well then we knew them, that sort, they were that sort of targets, not until they, they’d actually arrived.
BW: So, from there through July and August, I think in total you flew thirty-nine operations, right?
NH: Thirty-nine altogether, yes. And of course the normal operation, prior to that., had ben thirty but because we were getting these easy French targets, they made us do thirty nine. And I, when they did say you’re finished, I was quite surprised, I’d thought they’d keep me I wasn’t all that bothered, I was getting used to it and it think sorry there won’t be an end you just carry on to the end and I accepted that I think.
BW: So you would have gone on for the duration of the war.
NH: Yes, I was slightly surprised when they said, you can stop and get.
BW: And what happened at that point, how was it explained to you your tour would end? What happened [unclear]?
NH: No explanation, I was just told that I would be posted on a certain day to in this case to Marston Moor as an instructor. But of course before that I’d been commissioned, Jock Houston and myself both got commissioned and we both got and then shortly after that we both got DFCs. Oh, we got that after I left the squadron, we got them afterwards, we were commissioned before we left the squadron, about a month or so before and then we got the DFC about a month or so after we left the squadron.
BW: And did you go to the palace to receive the DCF [unclear]?
NH: No, it came in the post, it came in the post with a letter from King George, signed by King George and that was stolen, we had a burglary and some bastard stole it, including the letter which was in some respect more important than the DFC. I got the DFC changed
BW: And that was soon after, that was soon after you’d been awarded it, it happened or was it
NH: No, no, it happened, oh, about twenty years ago.
BW: So still, right, still, as recently as that.
NH: Yeah, but we were in Muscat in Oman and this burglary happened whilst we were away.
BW: But you managed to get a replacement for
NH: I got a replacement, yes, they charged me a hundred pounds for it but it’s not quite the same cause I haven’t got the letter from King George.
BW: A shame. And so how was your relationship at this point with your girlfriend, cause you’ve been on pos, a pretty intense period through [unclear].
NH: Oh, well, every, you see, I suppose, in some respects I missed out a bit, I was very friendly with Jock but the other I, I went and had a beer occasionally with them but I was so eager, I was so wrapped up with Dorothy that every opportunity, I just speared off into York and I didn’t spend much time on the squadron but I, I used to take my inflight rations, because we got chocolate and chewing gum and other things and I couldn’t eat them, I was too frightened to eat them, and so I’d take them into York ands give them to her, I ran up to her office, which is on the fourth story of the LNER headquarters building in York and bang on her door and give her my inflight rations, sweets and chocolate mostly cause these things were rationed at that time.
BW: And that must have made your visits special for her.
NH: Yeah [laughs].
BW: [unclear]
NH: Yeah. Well if I wasn’t flying that night, I’d rush into York and rush up and tell her I’d be there and wait for, meet her after she left work.
BW: At what stage during the day would you find out whether or not you were on ops or not?
NH: Well, usually in the morning, you round about, just round about midday as I remember you’d know whether you’d go and operate that night or not. I do remember one occasion when we, we thought we were going to operate and that was when the flight engineer we’d, it was in June cause its, the nights were brighter, I think we were due for a take-off about ten o’clock and it was getting dusk and as usual everything goes very quiet, you wait for the start-up pistol and all engines would then start revving up, start the engines up and revving up, make a crescendo of noise of course when you’ve got sixteen or eighteen four-engines, all going and on this occasion there is always a little pause, you see you check your aircraft, you check everything and then you sort of hang around for a few minutes, I was there waiting for the [unclear] pistol, signal to get in and start up and on this occasion the flight engineer, we’d done about fourteen trips, he said, I’m not going tonight, and he wouldn’t, he said he wasn’t going, so of course the tower had to be informed that we weren’t, we had a crew deficiency and everybody came out then, the CO and the flight engineer leader and the medical officer and they took him to the rear engine to talk to him and took him off and we thought, well, by this time all the other aircraft had started up and are travelling round the peri-track looking at us curiously wondering what, why we hadn’t started up and we are waving them to say, well, clear off, we’re not going but then the engineer nearly came rushing out saying I’m [unclear] [laughs] so we had a start-up and all we did like that.
BW: So you then got, were you having to get back in the aircraft at this point?
NH: Oh, of course, yes. And off we had to go but then we were Tail End Charlies and that’s another thing you don’t like you don’t wanna be amongst the gaggle.
BW: And so you, how did you feel being at the back of the bomber stream then?
NH: Well, I suppose we must have made it up, you know, put a bit [laughs] more throttle on and we, I think we reached them in the end because what you do, you assemble at same point or something like that, that’s the usual thing, the squadrons all take off from the various aerodromes, say in Yorkshire and Spurn Point was a favorite assembly point and you’d set off from there, which there is no formation, you just keep in the stream, and so of course by the time the assembly had taken place and they had set off, we were catching up.
BW: How did you feel during the flight having had [unclear]?
NH: I didn’t like it, I didn’t like it [laughs] I [unclear] much more nervous, well, I’ve always felt nervous but felt a lot more nervous that night and that’s a clear memory of one flight I do have, yeah.
BW: You mention that just feeling nervous and feeling that you could have your inflight rations when you were airborne, you managed to overcome that, did you [unclear].
NH: [unclear] do it, no, chewing gum, I had the chewing gum but didn’t need anything else, coffee, I’d have, I’d drink the coffee and eat and the chewing gum but I was too frightened to eat anything else [laughs]. I waited for my eggs and bacon, egg and chips like got back.
BW: Did you recall the rest of the crew felt in a similar way?
NH: I think they felt similar, fairly similar, yeah, I think so, I think we all felt pretty much the same.
BW: Did you ever talk about it?
NH: No, no, that’s a strange thing, it’s only in the last few years that I’ve ever talked about it, Dorothy never wanted me to hear me talk about it and I never did, I never thought about it and it’s only sort of more or less than she died that I’ve given it any thought.
BW: And at the time did you talk to your crew mates or did they tell you how it felt on the operations night?
NH: No, never talked about it, never, never, no, it’s a, I look back a lot of it and I think, this is a bit strange really cause I think about it a lot now and talk about it quite a bit but for thirty or forty years never thought about it, hardly, hardly, [unclear].
BW: And how does it feel now, reflecting back on that time?
NH: Well, it’s a different time, you know, it’s something which I didn’t, something which is very different to anything, but you know it’s an experience which you’d never imagined that you’d go through really.
BW: And you mentioned now at this stage of your career that you’d come off operations, you were then posted to Marston Moor as instructor.
NH: That’s right, yes, for six months, six months tour and then we got married in June and when I came back from my honeymoon, I was told I was posted back onto operations to go with Tiger Force against Japan.
BW: And is this June ’45?
NH: This is June ’45, the war, the European war had ended and that ended in May, was it May? Yeah, is it.
BW: That’s right.
NH: Yeah and I’ve finished my six months rest and so I was posted back onto a second tour which happened to be with, what I called the force?
BW: Tiger Force.
NH: Sorry?
US: Tiger.
NH: Tiger Force, with Tiger Force. Yes, [unclear] to, and we were going to do something similar to what we did against Germany. That was, but that was on Lincolns, was it Lancasters or Lincolns? Wasn’t Halifaxes? Either Lancasters or Lincolns, I got the feeling it was Lincolns. Cause then after the war I flew in, I was on 50 Squadron which was at Waddington.
BW: At Waddington.
NH: Yeah, that was after the war, that was in 1950, talking about 1947, ’48, no, ’48.
BW: So you were earmarked to go with Tiger Force out to the Far East
NH: Yeah. We did
BW: Did that happen?
NH: yeah. No, no, we did our training and we didn’t have to do much, it was, you know, becoming acquainted, with a slightly new aircraft and we were all experienced people, all done our tour of ops, all being instructors so we are a very experienced crew we did, we just did a little bit of familiarization and we are ready to go and then they dropped the atom bomb so we didn’t go and we all got split up then.
BW: So you were all prepared to go and then you continued your post first to a training as a crew
NH: Yes
BW: Together and I guess you were all I guess earmarked at the same to go to the Far East but
NH: Yeah
BW: But you said it didn’t happen
NH: No, and we would have gone of course if they hadn’t dropped the atom bombs.
BW: And so, just talk us through your subsequent career which I believe involved transport command, fighter command
NH: Well of course [unclear] lot of funny little jobs like on a recruiting center and I was eventually had a sort of a career posting as an instructor at the RAF [unclear] at Cosford which was, if I’d played my cards right, would have done me some good, but I didn’t, I volunteered for flying, I have tried to go back on flying and they posted me back on transport command, but then Dorothy was expecting her babies and after a while I asked much to their irritation I think and it never did me any good, they posted me back to Bomber Command.
BW: And where did you get posted to?
NH: To, well, first of all I did a conversion, I became a navigator, bomb aimer, I did a bomb aiming course at Lindholme, near Doncaster and then from there I was posted to 50 Squadron at Waddington and that was when Dorothy had her babies, twins, and we all moved into quarters at Waddington and I became adjutant to 50 Squadron and my Co’s a man named Peach and that was a most enjoyable experience, I really enjoyed that time, we flew Lincolns.
BW: I was going to ask actually because at this time Jet aircraft are becoming more widely [unclear].
NH: [unclear] was just coming into service, yes, in Bomber Command.
BW: Did you get a chance to fly in it?
NH: No, I didn’t. No, no.
BW: And so what happened after that, were you involved at all in the Berlin airlift for example or not?
NH: No, because, as I say, I would have been if I stayed on transport command, that’s where I didn’t do myself any good by asking for this, but I didn’t know that Berlin airlift, I would have I wish I could have done that now but I got this request answered and was posted to 50 to Bomber Command but I made a mistake though.
BW: And at what stage did you become flight controller?
NH: Well, this is a, from Waddington I was posted to Scampton as an instructor, again I wish I’d protested and I and stayed on longer but I, we were posted to Scampton, as an instructor and then I hadn’t been offered a permanent commission but they did offer me a restricted permanent commission but it had to be either in the air traffic control branch or the fighter control branch, so I chose the fighter control branch, I wish I, somehow I wish I could afford that more and stay, and let me stay on aircrew and I think I’d have prospered more so then I, I did the course on fighter control and yeah that’s and from there I was posted to Patrington, how do we call those units? Fighter control unit.
BW: And this was at Patrington?
NH: Patrington, yeah.
BW: Patrington.
NH: In East Yorkshire.
BW: Ok.
NH: And then I went from, from there I became training officer and that was a nice post I became training officer to the Hull fighter control unit, [unclear] unit, based at Sutton, that was most enjoyable.
BW: What did you like about it?
NH: Well, I was my own boss, I was both adjutant for a long while, was adjutant and training officer, I had the use of the staff car, say I was my own boss, we had a nice house in Withernsea, no, not in Withernsea, in
US: Wasn’t Cottingham?
NH: Cottingham. In Cottingham, yeah. Nice house in Cottingham, we had some pleasant friends in the village and that was a most enjoyable time, I was very, I became very popular with the people, with the auxiliary people who were of course all civilians but I enjoyed their company I got on well with them so that was quite a nice [unclear], from there so I did a full tour there and then we were posted to Germany doing, well doing an operational job, you know, fighter control unit first of all at [unclear] and then at [unclear].
BW: And that I suppose saw you through to, through the Sixties and
NH: Yeah, and right up until
BW: The Seventies
NH: Yes, I did a year in Borneo on my own and joined the confrontation, nobody knows about that, do they? When we fought the Indonesians I’d, of course that was a year what they called an unaccompanied tour, we were based on a little island called Labuan on the north coast of Borneo, which is enjoyable up to a point but I didn’t like being separated all that time from the family.
BW: What sort of things were you doing out there?
NH: Oh well, the Indonesians were trying to control the whole of Borneo and they were claiming it but we said no, the northern part, including, what’s the oil rich place? Begins with a b. Brunei. Kuching and, that’s Kalimantan and then, we said, no, that all belongs to Malaysia, Malaysian federation which at that time includes Singapore but the Indonesians wanted the whole of Borneo as part of the Indonesia so we said, no, you can’t have it, this is all, so we had a four year war, we didn’t call it a war, we called it a confrontation.
BW: Is this the Malaysian insurgency?
NH: Yeah. Yeah, well, it is an insurgency, but of course Singapore was part of it and Malaysia so we eventually Indonesia gave up and accepted the status quo as we said it should be and we had Javelins at that time so we were controlling Javelins along the border, which was way undefined, you couldn’t and of course we had Gurkas out there and Indonesians were scared stiff of them and it was good jungle warfare, very good for anybody who wanted an army career it was ideal training, not too many casualties, a couple of hundred or so were killed, but we had, but we have radar jamming, Lincolns, not Lincolns, Hastings, we had Hastings out there doing our radar jamming and we controlled the Javelins, we had our Javelins which would come onto the island and jet airborne wherever we saw anything that might be a useful target. So I commanded that little unit, I had about sixty or seventy men and all radar equipment, that sort of little encampment of my own, was quite nice and six officers, and seventy men and we had a marvelous time, laughed like anything, all the time, oh yeah, drank a lot, we drank the hell of a lot. Dorothy never stopped saying how shocked she was [laughs] [unclear].
BW: And so after late Fifties through the Sixties
NH: Yes, that’s the Mid Sixties, the confrontation finished in ’66, well, that’s when I came back, I came back in June ’66, and the confrontation stopped just after that and then I came back to, oh, Scotland again, to, up to Buchan, is it Buchan?
US: Peterhead, yeah.
NH: Peterhead, yeah. Peter, yeah, Peterhead, Buchan. Onto a, well, there we are looking at, we are looking after, looking at Russian aircraft, that was the interesting part there was watching for the Bisons and what not coming out of the Russian bases up at, you know, beyond.
BW: Beyond Murmansk and.
NH: Beyond Murmansk, yeah. They’d come out into the Atlantic, they’d be picked up by the Norwegian radar and we would [unclear] them then to come down between the Iceland gap and the
BW: Faroe islands.
NH: Faroe islands, Shetlands, my memory is terrible, anyway we were waiting for them to come through, past the Iceland gap and they’d go out into the Atlantic while we had a flight of, what were they in those days, not the Javelins, what was after the Javelins? Hunters, Hunters? What were the ones before the Lightning? No, it was the Lightnings, the Lightnings, of course it was. Yeah, the Lightnings, we had Lightnings up at Kinloss, or Lossiemouth? Lossiemouth, they were up there on the and the Americans had Phantoms in Iceland so we would scramble when we, as soon as we saw these coming, being handed over, they were handed over to us by the Norwegians, we probably couldn’t see them then but then when we knew they were there and eventually they would appear on our radar and certain time after that we would scramble the fighters from Lossiemouth and the Phantoms from Reykjavik and at first the Lightnings didn’t have the range to get to them and very frustratingly they would turn back because of lack of fuel, the Phantoms would come on and make the interception and then come onto Scotland and land, but then when the Lightning Mark VI came in, we could make the interception properly and return. But that was quite interesting for a while because we also had radar up on top of the Faroes, right on top, no, not the Faroes, the Shetlands, right up on the top island, Saxa Vord, that’s, there’s a radar station up there, so there, that was a bit of an interest and then I was finally posted back to Germany and that, did my final tour in Germany on a NATO, on a NATO post. We had a German commandant then, Brigadier, German, he was, by that time the Germans had bene reconstituted but we had control of the fighter element, the Germans weren’t allowed to control, we were [unclear] of course for, to intercept the Russians in case there was any sort of attack but we had, but they had to have RAF controllers out there, the Germans, under all their constitutional rules weren’t allowed to do this so although they provided all the manning for it, we did the actual operating of the stand-by fighters, what did we have then? Lightnings, did we? Lightnings, yes, Lightnings, and they were at places like Laarbruch, Bruggen and somewhere else, there were three, Gutersloh, yes, we had the triangle of those three and then of course Monchengladbach.
BW: And so
NH: So I finished my tour there and made a lot of good friends, [unclear] we were Germans, Dutch, British and that very pleasant finished my career really, made some good friends who stayed friends right up till now, those who survived, even the Germans, the German commandant of the German regiment, he became, I still talk to him every week on the telephone [laughs]
BW: And so
NH: Oberst Wolfgang Ostermar
BW: Wolfgang Ostermar
NH: Wolfgang, yeah, we went on holidays together, became very close, you know.
BW: And is he a similar age to you?
NH: A year younger.
BW: So he’d been around the year, presumably in opposing forces when you [unclear]
NH: He was, he was, and he was taken prisoner by the Americans.
BW: Really? Did
NH: But he’s an Anglophile, speaks excellent English, same as his wife does. Did his training, of course he became a fighter controller but trained by us in Britain.
BW: Do you recall briefly what his wartime service was? Was he a pilot or a gunner or [unclear]?
NH: No, he was ground staff.
BW: Right. So there was no chance of him being
NH: When we’d been on holiday together, people made romantic conclusions, you know, a German and a British exile, sorry, good friends,
BW: But it wasn’t
NH: Not like that, no.
BW: And so you left the RAF and NATO
NH: Yeah.
BW: What was your civilian career, what did you, did you [unclear]?
NH: I enjoyed the last couple of years, I did a correspondence course which is organized by the service, my [unclear], what did I do?
US: Agency and business studies.
NH: Agency and business studies, that’s right, yes, and it was such an easy posting in Germany I was able to do this with a lot of enjoyment and I thought, well, I can go in human relations or something like that, I’m made for that and it meant a two week course in a [unclear] to start with, then about eighteen months correspondence, finishing up the six weeks again at Chelsea and we happened to be in the Chelsea barracks near the Chelsea officer’s mess but we were told, the Chelsea officer’s, the guards officers not the, not any ordinary mess it’s the guards officer’s mess and we were told very strictly we were not, we may be officers but we were not entitled to go into the guards officer’s mess [laughs].
BW: You mentioned before we started the interview you were security on the ton air project
NH: Well I, having got the H&C, I wrote lots and lots of letters people offering my services and I got reasonable replies from quite a number and I was offered several jobs, I eventually left the air force in November 1970 and I came up here, [unclear] they seemed puzzled as I, I wanted to come up here, why do you want to come up here then? [laughs] because I suppose hopefully you are going to offer me a job. So, they did in fact, I became assistant to the chief designer, they offered me two jobs actually, they offered me a job on Tornado cockpit which was still on the drawing board, I could have either be that job or be assistant to the chief designer, so I said, I’m not qualified to cock pit design work, so I think I better take the other one so I did that, which was quite a nice job, I learned a tremendous amount cause I worked in the main drawing office with him and got to know all the chaps and what they were doing and of course I say the Tornado was still on the drawing board it goes now in production but that was still very much a live product. And so I got to learn in eighteen months so I did that [unclear], I learned a lot and then the chap who is the chief security officer was an ex wing commander and I had, and he still, I want, I want to retire very soon, do you want to take my job over? So, that’s promotion anyway, so I did, I took, George Kennedy, wing commander George, he’d been an ex apprentice like me, but much earlier, and when he, well, I went and joined him as his assistant, first of all about eighteen months, two years, and then took over completely when he retired and that really was a splendid job because the Tornado was still not flying but it was full of classified information and working with the Germans and the Italians, our own Ministry of Defenses and who of course were very hard on us if we gave any information away it was all very and of course the Cold War was on, you know, and Munich we had plenty of Cold War suspects and [unclear] around Munich, eager to get hold of the information about the Tornado.
BW: And so, you were very limited about what you could and couldn’t say at the time.
NH: Oh yes, very much, yes, but it’s very, eventually I did get hold of because these technical people and engineers [unclear], the last thing they wanted to know was about is security, they want to show off their knowledge and they want to write papers and get their names noticed and things like that their ego, you know publicity, whereas we of course, the security side, wanted to restrict it, well, not because we ourselves wanted it, the Ministry of Defense, they provided the contracts and if we broke the rules, they would start threatening that there would be a loss of contract work. So that’s I, I managed to, because I had experience in aircraft all, you know, I think I was able to work all the people like flight test engineers, the flight crews, the [unclear] like Paul Millet, who is the chief test pilot at the time but he took over from, oh, famous wartime pilot, forgot the, I’ll get it in a minute, anyway I had a good time because I got on well with these people.
BW: And so, looking back at your career and the association you have with Bomber Command, how does it feel now looking back?
NH: Well, occupies my thoughts continuously cause I’m on my own now, I’ve been on my own for nearly elven years, it occupies a tremendous amount of time, I can’t read but I do have listening books which I enjoy and music but otherwise I, I have to use my own thoughts to pass the time and I do it a lot.
BW: And have you been able to keep in touch with progress in terms of the memorials to Bomber Command, how do you feel about the tributes and memorials that have been paid these days?
NH: Well, I love it and Dorothy and I went once to St Paul’s, that would be about, oh, about the year 2000, and I can’t even remember what it was for, is for, I know the chap who was the, oh gracious me, trying to remember, he was head of the air force, and he was also president of Bomber Command.
BW: The name that speaks to my mind are Paul Enteder.
NH: No, long after him, no, long after them.
BW: I see.
NH: He’s about my age.
BW: I see.
NH: Oh Gosh, anyway, we did go to this ceremony at St Paul’s cathedral, it be about three or four years before she died so, be about 2000 or something like that, we had a Lancaster flying over York, we all came out of the service and assembled on the steps, but what was the question?
BW: Have you been to Hyde Park memorial [unclear]?
NH: No, I’d like to, near the Green Park one, you mean?
BW:
NH: No, I haven’t, but I know of it and I and Tony Iveson , who was, this is how I did have a connection with, because he was in 4 Group the time as I was, and he led all the staff to make the memorial, he was on, I heard him on Desert island Discs, he’s dead now, but I couldn’t see it if I went I couldn’t see it.
BW: yeah.
NH: I used to, well, I am a member of the IMF club still but I haven’t’ ben there for three or four years.
BW: How do you, what are your thoughts about the memorial center that’s been set up in Lincoln, the International Bomber Command Center?
NH: I don’t know anything about it.
BW: They have now unveiled the memorial spire and the walls which have the names of all the fifty five thousand and something aircrew who were lost during the war and they are now building, or going to start building the Chadwick Center which will house documents, artifacts, there will be audio recordings as well such as this one, the digital
NH:
BW: That will be in the memorial center in Lincoln
NH: Is that a new purpose build
BW: It’s just outside, it’s on one of the hills outside of Lincoln.
NH: Oh! When is it going to be opened?
BW: The center should be opened later this year
NH: There will be a lot of publicity attached to that one. Pretty sure I can’t see much.
BW: I just wondered whether you’d be informed of it and today
NH: I haven’t been informed of it, I’d like to know about it but I can’t do, I can’t see it, so , you know, provided, I hope I shall hear about it.
BW: Well, I can post the details out to you and the information
NH: Right, yes,
BW: You know
NH: I’d like that. Because if I can’t read, Anthony can read it out to me.
BW: Yeah. So
NH: But I’m restricted in movement and everything else now, I don’t really want to go anywhere.
BW: I see. The, there aren’t any other questions that I have for you, are there any other particular recollections that may have come to mind you wish to talk about or else, anything else I may have missed?
NH: I’m sure there will be when you’re gone [laughs], I can’t, I think, oh, I’ve surprised myself [unclear]
BW: Well, it’s been very interesting to talk to you, you’ve given an awful lot of information
NH: Is it?
BW: [unclear] very happy with that.
NH: [unclear], I seen, I’m very happy with that. That’ll give me a better pleasure anyway.
BW: Thank you very much for your time.
NH: Ok.
BW: [unclear] Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Neil Harris
Creator
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Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisNG160128
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:53:47 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
Neil Harris wanted to join the RAF because he was looking for an exciting life experience and an opportunity for further education. He started as a flight mechanic before training as a pilot. Remembers being trained in different locations across the country, from Brighton to Kinloss, in Scotland. Mentions a particular night, when they took off late and had to catch up with the bomber stream. Flew with 48 and 578 Squadron. Shares his memories of D-Day, when he was targeting a gun battery in Northern France. Remembers his life after the war, when he was sent to Indonesia in the 60s during the Borneo confrontation.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Nuremberg
Scotland--Wick
France
France--Ver-Sur-Mer
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
50 Squadron
578 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
fitter airframe
Gee
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Hudson
Lincoln
love and romance
Master Bomber
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
pilot
promotion
RAF Burn
RAF Halton
RAF Kinloss
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Rufforth
RAF Waddington
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/302/3459/PLambAM1702.2.jpg
5bb20bc0ccac9b450bc8f96ec8e8496b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/302/3459/AMcPhersonLambA150726.1.mp3
5e35283fa31ed4090662324faaffc571
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lamb, Alexander
Alexander McPherson Lamb
Alexander M Lamb
Alexander Lamb
A M Lamb
A Lamb
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Alexander McPherson Lamb (b. 1925, 1827673 Royal Air Force), his decorations, album and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 15 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alexander Lamb and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-25
2017-08-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lamb
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BB: Good morning Alistair, and thank you for letting me come into your home. I am representing the International Bomber Command Centre at Lincoln and we’re doing an oral history of Bomber Command veterans. So this interview is being held with Mr Alexander McPherson Lamb in his home in Stirling. Would you like to tell us your story? Thank you.
AML: Well, I joined the RAF in — I think it was March. I’m not quite sure now unclear] I think it was March. And I volunteered for aircrew. I was a junior clerk in the civil service. War Department. And I joined the RAF in, I think it was March. March ’44 I think it would be. I can’t remember.
[background chat]
BB: Sorry Alistair.
AML: That’s alright. You start again? Or is it alright?
BB: No. Just carry on.
AML: You’ve stopped it.
BB: Yeah. Just carry on. Yeah.
AML: And I think it was March ’44. And I volunteered as an air gunner. Had my attestation and medical and whatnot initially in Edinburgh prior to that. And I think I actually joined in March ’44. Yeah. March ’44 was when I actually joined. Went down to London to Aircrew Reception Centre in London where we were sort of needles stuck in us and examined and —
BB: Was that the one in St John’s Wood?
AML: Pardon?
BB: St John’s Wood.
AML: St John’s Wood. Yes. St John’s Wood. Then we went from there overnight by train to Bridgnorth.
BB: In Wales.
AML: I can’t remember the number of the OTU. Of the thing it was. Bridgnorth anyway. I can’t remember where, what it was actually called. It would be RAF. I can’t remember what Bridgnorth was. I’ve got it somewhere. Maybe get it in my logbook.
BB: Ok. We’ll look at that later.
AML: And then did our initial training there. March, gunnery, various things. Air force law. The usual jazz that you get when you join up first of all. And after that we were then [pause] I can’t remember how long we were there. I’d need to look up my logbook again. We then went to gunnery school which was at Stormy Down in Wales.
BB: Right.
AML: Number 7.
BB: That’s right. Number 7 Air Gunner’s School.
AML: At Stormy Down’s in Wales. Near, near Porthcawl. A lovely — it was a good station and I enjoyed it very much. We flew in Ansons there.
BB: Yeah.
AML: We did our gunnery in Ansons there. We passed out. It would be in 28th I think. 28th of July or June, I’m not quite sure, ’44. And then came home on leave. From that we went back to Market Harborough. OTU. 14 OTU Market Harborough.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Where we spent the first three weeks more or less meeting people. Knowing about, meeting guys. All the crews that were there. And you were allowed a month, a fortnight or three weeks to what was called crew up. There was no compunction. You picked your own crew over a period of time and that. Then you went in a huge hangar and I don’t know who it would be, the CO or somebody said, ‘Who are the people who have got full crews?’ And they all went to one side. The last of us were left. If you didn’t have a full crew you were then left and there would be other spare people left as well.
BB: Right.
AML: And they would then say, ‘Well here’s a spare pilot.’ ‘Here’s a spare navigator.’ ‘Here’s a spare gunner.’ Would you all like to, ‘Would you like to crew up?’ And basically that’s how you crewed up.
BB: Which was all very sensible really because you got to know people that you could trust and you liked and you got on well with.
AML: That’s right. That’s right.
BB: So there was method in their madness.
AML: Oh there was. The usual thing as you do in all these things when you join up first. There’s always somebody who knows something about everything. And they said, ‘Oh look for a warrant officer pilot because he’ll have a lot of flying experience. Don’t look for a young flying officer who’s got none.’ Or a young sergeant pilot. A general thing.
BB: Very sensible.
AML: It didn’t matter. You just picked who you found. You took a like to somebody even before you know their qualifications. If you liked them you liked them you know.
BB: Yes.
AML: We picked a warrant officer pilot and when we went in to be crewed up we were told well he’s been posted somewhere else. We were then left standing until this lone sergeant pilot arrived. We didn’t know he was French and they said, ‘Well here’s a pilot needing somebody. What about a crew?’ And I must have been looked at and he said, ‘What would you like to ask?’ I said, ‘Well we’ll take up then.’ So that’s how we got crewed up.
BB: So you had this French, a French airman.
AML: Very very much French actually.
BB: French pilot.
AML: Yeah.
BB: Who was kind of left.
AML: That’s right.
BB: Was he in the French Air Force or was he in the RAF?
AML: He was in the French Air Force initially I think.
BB: Right.
AML: He came from — maybe this is more or less rubbish to you.
BB: No. No. Carry on.
AML: He came from France when the Germans invaded. I forget where it was. It was down in the south of France. Not as far as they were but it was quite far down. Near Bordeaux I think he was.
BB: Right. Southern France. In Vichy France.
AML: Aye. And he escaped and came back to this country and because he had very little English at that time he was put in a reserved occupation building aircraft. He was punching wing ribs out for an Auster aircraft in Leicester.
BB: Oh I see. Right.
AML: That’s where he was sent to. And he got so fed up with it he said the only way you could get out of a reserved occupation during the war was if you were volunteered for submarines or aircrew.
BB: I see. Right. They were so short on both.
AML: So he volunteered for aircrew and did his training, I understand with the French Air Force and the French training him. Probably the RAF but under the auspices of the French.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: And then in the usual way the wheels worked somebody said, ‘What’s this guy with a Scottish, with an English name doing in the French Air Force?’ Jack was then humped out of one into the other and we got him at OTU. His language was quite a problem for a while but we got to know about it. We then went on to Wellingtons at OTU at Market Harborough. And, I don’t know, I can’t remember the dates at Market Harborough. I need to look up my logbook.
BB: That’s ok.
AML: But you can fill them in after. I think we went to Market Harborough in ’44 some time. I can’t remember when. August ’44. I need to look at my logbook. You’ll see it in the logbook.
BB: Yes.
AML: ’44. Market Harborough I think. And we left there and when we did our stint we did a hundred and ten, about a hundred and ten hours on Wellingtons at Market Harborough. The reason we did so many is another story I wouldn’t bore you with. Anyway, and we then went home on leave and came back as a crew to — what did I say it was? Heavy conversion. 1654 Heavy Conversion Unit.
BB: 1654 Heavy Conversion Unit at Wigsley.
AML: Wigsley. Wiglsey.
BB: Yes.
AML: Flying Stirlings.
BB: Yes. How did you find the Stirling?
AML: I liked the Stirling very much indeed. I was very taken with the Stirling. Very very strong aircraft. Very robust aircraft. Plenty of room in it. Because you know how tremendous.
BB: Yes.
AML: I got extra flying time. We used to carry on till the [unclear] you see.
BB: It was a long way off the ground. I remember. And I see you have a model here too which shows the size of it.
AML: That’s right.
BB: Compared to the same scale.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: That you have a Wellington or a Lancaster.
AML: Aye. It was wingspan. You know the story. The wingspans were reduced to get it in to the hangar.
BB: Yes. That’s right.
AML: Which didn’t do it any good at all.
BB: No. Not good at all. No.
AML: It was literally a Sunderland wing.
BB: Yeah. Oh I see.
AML: You see.
BB: Made by Short’s of course.
AML: But ninety nine feet which made it very manoeuvrable but it couldn’t get much higher than —
BB: Couldn’t get the height.
AML: Sixteen thousand and there.
BB: Which made it very vulnerable to flak and fighters.
AML: Very vulnerable to flak. Yeah. Yeah. Same types of turret I had in the Lanc of course. Exactly the same. Anyway —
BB: Yes. Frazer and Nash turret.
AML: Went from there to the same OTU, same conversion. We went to, joined Lancs at that unit. We were then, we went over to Lancs at the same place. 14 OTU.
BB: 1654 Heavy Conversion Unit.
AML: Conversion Unit.
BB: Yeah.
AML: We went on to —
BB: 15 Squadron.
AML: No. Not at that time.
BB: Ok.
AML: We were then posted when we finished that course. I forget how long. I don’t remember how long. It wasn’t terribly long. We then went to 15 Squadron at Mildenhall in March ’45.
BB: That’s right.
AML: More or less a year after we joined. March. I joined a year ’45. And the first thing we did when we got there we were sent to Feltwell to do a GH bombing course.
BB: Gosh that must have been interesting.
AML: It was only about a fortnight’s course I think. A beautiful little airfield. I think it was Harvards they had there. It was a fighter. I think. I can’t remember.
BB: Yeah.
AML: But it was a very nice peacetime ‘drome. A lovely place. I liked Feltwell for the short time we were there.
BB: So that was fighter affiliation.
AML: No. We simply did GH bombing training.
BB: Just bombing training. Ok.
AML: For the navigator’s really.
BB: Yeah.
AML: The navigators and bomb aimers. This type of GH bombing. I can’t remember.
BB: Yes. That would meant that you would have two yellow stripes on your tail when you qualified to be a bombing leader.
AML: Aye. GH leader. Some of —
BB: Yeah.
AML: Some of the aircraft had yellow striped on the tail.
BB: Yeah. That’s right.
AML: Some hadn’t. It was a means of identification.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: Then we came back from there just more or less overnight to RAF Mildenhall itself. Where we were originally. And we were there at RAF Mildenhall until we left in — when would it be? When did we leave Mildenhall?
BB: Mildenhall.
AML: ’46 I think we left Mildenhall.
BB: 20th of August ’46 I think you mentioned before.
AML: Yeah. They moved. They moved to Wyton. The squadron moved to Wyton.
BB: Did you go with them to Wyton?
AML: We went to Wyton. Yeah.
BB: Yeah. Ok.
AML: And the crew, the whole crew went to it. That was the last trip my skipper did. He was then posted as an instructor.
BB: Right. He was screened.
AML: Aye.
BB: And went off to an OTU.
AML: Aye and of course by that time everybody was getting broken up because ’46 the demobbing was taking its toll and people were coming and going. And new people were coming in and sort of general get togethers what was disappearing quickly because you were losing people left, right and middle. And as I say I was fortunate. I stayed flying until I was demobbed which was quite lucky for me.
BB: Yes. Yes. That’s right.
AML: Because 15 was a peacetime squadron. So that’s why I think.
BB: Yes. So with that pretty well organised.
AML: Pre-war squadron.
BB: Yes.
AML: That’s why we were probably kept as such. 44 and 15 and some of the others, 7 were all peacetime squadrons.
BB: All the wartime squadrons were disbanded.
AML: That’s right. Yeah. Were all disbanded.
BB: The peacetime squadrons were re-kept.
AML: Yeah.
BB: And some of the wartime ones were re-kept.
AML: Yeah well —
BB: Like 617 for example.
AML: We had Tuddenham. We talked about Tuddenham.
BB: Tuddenham. Yes.
AML: Just across the road from us.
BB: Yeah. Yes.
AML: A case of wheels up, wheels down, landing.
BB: Yes.
AML: Then we stayed there until we were posted. As I say we were posted to Wyton. Wyton, a beautiful station. A peacetime.
BB: Yes. I’ve been to Wyton. Yes.
AML: A very modern peacetime station.
BB: Yes.
AML: A lovely station. And I was there until I was demobbed.
BB: Yes.
AML: We did a lot of stuff after the war. Immediately after the war, before the war actually ended in Japan. We brought liberated prisoners of war back. We did supply dropping to the Dutch.
BB: Yes.
AML: I got a medal from the Dutch government for that. We did three trips of supply dropping to the Dutch and I think we did three trips for bringing prisoners of war back but I think we came in to —
BB: Yeah.
AML: Westcott.
BB: Westcott. Yes.
AML: I think so.
BB: In Bucks.
AML: Oh my memory’s not as good as it used to be I’m afraid.
BB: So — that’s ok. So how many actual operations did you do? You came in late in the war.
AML: I came in very late. I didn’t join —
BB: Did you do six or five or —?
AML: I did, I did, the crew did six and I did five.
BB: Ok.
AML: I took food poisoning.
BB: Oh right. So you did your five ops. And —
AML: Four daylights and one. Four daylights and one night.
BB: Ok.
AML: Kiel was a night op. And I understand that the war was still on this time — these supply drops trips and prisoner of war would have been turn ups. I don’t think they were actually given as that.
BB: No.
AML: And somebody said to us, ‘Oh you could, in a push, count them as ops,’ but I never ever did that.
BB: No. No.
AML: I didn’t do. But that was —
BB: No.
AML: That was on.
BB: But in terms of bombing German or French targets. Yes. Yes.
AML: Actual bombing Germany itself.
BB: Yes. As target. Yes. Yes.
AML: I did four daylights.
BB: Four daylights.
AML: Munster, Bocholt, Heligoland, Kiel and Bremen.
BB: And Bremen. And Bremen was your last one.
AML: Last one we did.
BB: Yeah. And did you, did you drop — did you have a chance to drop those big bombs?
AML: No. Not at that time.
BB: The Tallboys. No.
AML: 15 Squadron wasn’t doing that.
BB: No. No.
AML: It was a specialised.
BB: Yes. 617. Yeah. Yeah.
AML: 617.
BB: Yes.
AML: Was a specialised squadron for that.
BB: So you dropped the normal, you had a normal cookie and the normal other ones. Yeah.
AML: That’s right. A normal cookie.
BB: Normal load. Yeah.
AML: Or an eight thousand pounder double cookie sometimes.
BB: Right.
AML: And I’ve got to know, I think about a fourteen thousand pounds was about the standard bomb load we had.
BB: Bomb load. Right.
AML: Sixteen hundred gallons of gas. Fuel.
BB: Yeah.
AML: It’s in my logbook. You’ll see it there. Yes. Then 15 Squadron became a sort of — well we were doing a lot of training. Long range navigation exercises. Things like that. Then we started to convert to get the Lancaster ones, the ones they were using for the ten ton bomb.
BB: Yes.
AML: I forget why it was. Like B1 specials I think they were called.
BB: B1 specials. They took the nose turret off and —
AML: The top turret off.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And bomb doors off.
BB: And the bomb doors off to take the Tallboys.
AML: That’s right.
BB: Yes.
AML: We dropped those. We called it Operation Farge I think it was called. We did the dropping of these bombs on the U-boat pens at Farge.
BB: Yeah. Ok.
AML: Because they didn’t know when the war ended exactly what damage was being done with the Halifax that did this. Then we did — oh what was the operation? There was a point but I can’t remember. Where we bombed [pause] ships in the English Channel to see what would happen to bombs.
BB: Oh to see what the damage —
AML: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. Would be —
AML: We flew then at a certain height and we dropped a stick of bombs. I think they were five hundred pounders. And then if and when we went to hit a boat [laughs] It was HMS Firefly. I think it was. It was an ex-mine sweeper. They then stopped the bombing and the navy went aboard the board and put a real bomb in where our bomb had struck or where somebody’s bomb had struck.
BB: Yes.
AML: And then detonated that bomb from a launch so they could then say that an aircraft at eighteen thousand feet dropped a five hundred pound bomb going into number two engine room would do X amount of damage.
BB: X amount of damage. Yes.
AML: This is what we did. We did some research on that.
BB: It was to see what the actual damage was.
AML: That’s right. That’s right.
BB: To a vessel being hit by a bomb of that kind.
AML: That’s right. That was to give them —
BB: So they could either improve the munition.
AML: Yeah.
BB: Or just to see the damage.
AML: It was to give them a general – they didn’t physically know, you know, but now they could actually do it. So we did quite a bit of that.
BB: Right.
AML: And then we got, we were lucky enough to get a trip to Italy.
BB: You went to Italy to bring back POWs.
AML: No. To bring back guys on leave as well.
BB: Oh ok. Right.
AML: I think it was a reward. The squadron got a reward. The squadrons got a reward.
BB: A chance to go and get some oranges and stuff like that.
AML: That’s right.
BB: From Italy. Yes.
AML: Yeah.
BB: And some wine no doubt.
AML: Yeah.
BB: Excellent.
AML: I think we landed at Blackbushe.
BB: Blackbushe right.
AML: Coming back. Aye.
BB: And did your crew all survive the war?
AML: Yes. Yes.
BB: Do you keep in touch with them at all?
No. They’re all away now. My skipper died. I’ve been to see my skipper. My navigator and I went to see my skipper in Australia. I went on my own once and he came with me the next time.
BB: Right.
AML: And he’d been over here. Funnily enough I’ve just had a phone call from Australia saying they’re coming across for my eightieth — for my ninetieth birthday.
BB: Oh that’s nice. That’s good. That’s very nice. Now just to remind me. When were born again. What’s your date of birth?
AML: 1925.
BB: Pardon?
AML: 5.9 ’25.
BB: 5.9 ’25. And that was in Stirling.
AML: Stirling.
BB: Yeah.
AML: In this house.
BB: In this house. Right. Ok.
AML: I’ve lived here ever since.
BB: So you’ve lived in here.
AML: Ever since.
BB: Ever since.
AML: No desire to move.
BB: No. And you were with the civil service before you —
AML: Yeah.
BB: Before you went and when you came back from the war that’s what you did.
AML: I was —what do you call that? I worked in the War Department as a boy messenger initially.
BB: Ok.
AML: For a few months until I then got a junior clerks job. And when I left I was a clerk. What they called temporary clerks because there was no establishment at that time, I understand. During the war.
BB: And that was in —
AML: Stirling.
BB: In Stirling.
AML: [unclear] in Stirling.
BB: Oh in the military side of it there.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: Ok. Ok. And so they didn’t [pause] was that a reserved occupation in that sense?
AML: Probably it might have been. I don’t think so. Anyway —
BB: Because you volunteered for air crew.
AML: Aye.
BB: Yeah.
AML: But what happened then I understand. I don’t know maybe you shouldn’t quote this but I think, I think the people who had gone out had to get their jobs back. You know, after the war.
BB: Yes. They had to be kept for them yeah.
AML: And I went back in. And realise there would be no things like that. I then transferred to what were called the Department of Health and Social Security I think we called it.
BB: Ok.
AML: National Insurance, I think. In Stirling. I was still a temporary clerk.
BB: After, after the war.
AML: Yeah. After the war.
BB: Ok.
AML: And I was there when I had to sit the civil service exam.
BB: Right.
AML: If I wanted to become established. That was the only way you could keep it.
BB: Yeah.
AML: So I sat the civil service exam, passed it and was posted on a permanent, as a permanent civil servant to Elgin.
BB: Elgin. Right.
AML: Elgin. And I was in Elgin for seven — nine months. Then I got back to Stirling. Well I got back to Alloa.
BB: Yes.
AML: And then I got from Alloa to Stirling.
BB: Right.
AML: I was in Stirling until I was demobbed.
BB: Right.
AML: And became a HEO, acting HEO and I was that until I came out. Where did I come out? ’48. Would it have been 1984 ’85 ’86? I can’t remember.
BB: That’s when you retired.
AML: When I was sixty.
BB: Sixty.
AML: In my grade, at that time, you had to go. At your age.
BB: Right. You couldn’t, you couldn’t negotiate.
AML: You couldn’t stay on. Now you can go on forever I understand.
BB: Right. Ok. And you went to school in Stirling.
AML: Went to school.
BB: What? The High school?
AML: Riverside.
BB: Riverside. And that’s where you, did you get your school certificate there?
AML: Yeah. Well I got — I left at fourteen.
BB: Yeah.
AML: As most people did in those days. .
BB: Yeah.
AML: I think I got what they called was it a day school or—? I can’t remember actually.
BB: Yeah. But you had, but you had enough to qualify for aircrew.
AML: Well, I don’t think it really mattered what scholastic abilities you had if you passed.
BB: Passed their test.
AML: The sort of general assessment test.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. Well there were –
AML: Yeah — there were quite a few lads, that’s the wrong word, who were plumbers or joiners who had, you know.
BB: Done apprenticeships the same.
AML: That’s right.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And they went too. Yeah.
BB: Right. Ok. And your mother. Your parents lived in this house.
AML: Yeah.
BB: And obviously that was a great worry to your mother. Going off flying bombers.
AML: Yeah. Yeah. My father died.
BB: Rear gunners position in the bomber at that. The most dangerous position in the aircraft.
AML: My father died. I think in ’40. 1940.
BB: Oh right. Ok.
AML: He was a regular serving soldier prior to that.
BB: What? In the army.
AML: Yeah.
BB: Ok.
AML: A twenty eight year man I think he was.
BB: Did he die in the war? Or did he —?
AML: No. No. He was out of the war. He came out the forces in 1924.
BB: Oh. Ok. So must have been a boy soldier and worked his way up and all that.
AML: Yeah. He joined the Seaforth Highlanders when he was eighteen.
BB: Ok.
AML: I think.
BB: Ok. And these are his medals on the wall.
AML: That’s right. Then after, after the Sudan campaign. Kitchener’s Sudan campaign.
BB: Yeah.
AML: He came back to Egypt.
BB: Right.
AML: In fact I’ve got a letter there written when he was in Egypt. He lost a sister during the terrible flu epidemic. I remember that was in the letter.
BB: I see he’s got the Egyptian Medal.
AML: That’s right.
BB: And the First World War.
AML: Yeah.
BB: War and Victory Medal and looks like —
AML: He’s got a Long Service Meritorious Medal.
BB: Long Service Medals and Meritorious Medal. Yes.
AML: He also has the Russian Order of Saint Stanislaus as well.
BB: Oh right. Ok. Interesting. So he served in the first, he had been a combat soldier.
AML: A regular serving soldier.
BB: In those campaigns.
AML: He was —
BB: How much did his military service influence you in, you know in going into the RAF?
AML: No. I don’t think so. Terribly much.
BB: No. No.
AML: I was never really army orientated.
BB: No. I didn’t mean the army. Just the whole military culture was in the family.
AML: Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.
BB: Yeah. That’s good.
AML: My cousin was killed at Dunkirk.
BB: Was he? Yes. What was he in?
AML: He was in the Royal Artillery.
BB: Royal Artillery. So he’s buried in France.
AML: Somewhere in France.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: I don’t know where.
BB: Exactly where. No. Oh dear. Ok.
AML: Research to that.
BB: Right.
AML: And all my other cousins were in the forces during the war.
BB: Yes.
AML: You know. In various bits.
BB: Yes. But no brothers and sisters.
AML: No.
BB: No.
BB: But you remember your cousins were in the armed forces during the war. Did you ever meet up in Stirling? On leave and things.
AML: No.
BB: No.
AML: I never met them at all.
BB: Never met them at all.
AML: No. It just so happened that, you know —
BB: What was leave like? Did you get regular leave or did it — haphazard? Or —
AML: When you were flying on operations you got I think every seventh week was a leave week. I can’t really remember.
BB: Right.
AML: You got quite a bit of leave. We were quite fortunate. I think, I think it was every seventh week. I can’t remember to be quite —
BB: Yeah. But you did get regular leave.
AML: We got regular leave. Better than most people.
BB: Yes.
AML: Better than most people. Yes.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: Yes we did. Aye. Aye.
BB: I’ve heard that before from other veterans.
AML: Yeah. And we always got our [unclear], you know. Of course. I’m talking from an NCO point of view.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: I don’t know remember what the officers got. They would get the same as us.
BB: Right.
AML: But that’s, that’s their —
BB: Were you made up to flight sergeant before?
AML: After a year I was —
BB: You were a warrant officer weren’t you?
AML: I was, after a year I got my flight sergeant.
BB: Yeah. You went in as a, sorry, you must have joined as an LAC.
AML: Oh I think I was an AC2. I don’t know —
BB: Sorry, AC2.
AML: An AC2 I think.
BB: And then gone through your training.
AML: Training.
BB: And then you would have got your sergeant’s stripes.
AML: Sergeant. That’s right and then I got my flight sergeant.
BB: Now, was that before you went to OUT? Sergeant. To be sergeant.
AML: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Ah huh. When everybody went to OTU they were all aircrew by that.
BB: Yes.
AML: They were all qualified aircrew.
BB: Ok. Ok. So once you got your wings you made a sergeant.
AML: That’s right.
BB: And then you got your flight sergeant.
AML: Yes.
BB: And then you got your warrant officer.
AML: Warrant yeah.
BB: That’s very good.
AML: I got my warrant officer last. I told you. After nine months.
BB: Yes.
AML: You could take, you could take your flight sergeant after nine months.
BB: Yes.
AML: And your W after a year.
BB: Yes.
AML: But Tom said, ‘Oh no you should do it the other way around. You get more money.’ But you don’t get it you know.
BB: And was that was that on a selection basis or a board?
AML: No. It was automatic.
BB: Was it automatic?
AML: Yeah.
BB: Oh I see.
AML: Unless you really had been a bad boy or something.
BB: A bad boy. That’s right.
AML: As far as I can understand it virtually just came through on station, a station order, you know.
BB: Routine orders. Yes. That’s it.
AML: Follow through on flight sergeants.
BB: Right.
AML: In fact I’ve got the papers of my father.
BB: Right.
AML: The same way.
BB: Yes.
AML: In the army way back.
BB: So it was, it was on a good record and on time.
AML: That’s right. Yeah.
BB: Ok. That’s fine.
AML: And I got my warrant officer the same way.
BB: Yes.
AML: The warrant officer was slightly different. I can remember. I think you went in front of the CO.
BB: Yes.
AML: Or your squadron CO.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And he asked you a few questions. Blah blah blah. He knew of you. He knew of you of course by this time anyway.
BB: Yes, of course he did.
AML: And he would say ok.
BB: And he would have had your flight commander’s report and all the rest of it. Yeah.
AML: Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.
BB: And so you got your Tate and Lyle’s on your, on your sleeve.
AML: Aye. I’ve got a picture. Over there.
BB: Yes.
AML: Over there.
BB: Yes. Yeah. Got your Tate and Lyle’s.
AML: My Tate and Lyle’s. Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Yeah.
BB: That’s great. Now tell me about, tell me about, I’m going to ask you certain aspects of Bomber Command and you can say well did you know about these things or not. There was a lot of, there was a lot of problem with venereal disease in Bomber Command. So much so that the Bomber Command chief medical officer went to see Bomber Harris and —
AML: In his book yes. It’s in the book. Aye.
BB: Was there any instances of that on your squadron that you knew? I mean it’s not something that somebody would brag, talk about.
AML: No. No. I don’t think, I don’t remember.
BB: No.
AML: I don’t remember.
BB: The medical officer didn’t give the talks and all that kind of thing.
AML: No.
BB: No.
AML: No. We got a very terrible talk. A horrible talk at ITW. At —
BB: Initial Training Wing. Right.
AML: At Aircrew Reception Centre.
BB: Oh right.
AML: Most of us didn’t know the first thing they were talking about. That’s how innocent we all were.
BB: So naive and young then.
AML: Oh absolutely. People don’t believe it. We were really.
BB: Yes.
AML: You got an odd guy who’d been a bit of a man of the world sort of style.
BB: Aye. No.
AML: But the rest of us we knew what women were and all the rest of it.
BB: Ok.
AML: But that was it.
BB: Alright. That’s fine.
AML: No it was —
BB: No. It was fine.
AML: It was a sort of movie. I mean they actually, you know.
BB: You grew up very quickly no doubt.
AML: Yeah. It was an American made movie.
BB: Right.
AML: About how they met and this guy goes with this lassie and all the rest of it.
BB: Right.
AML: And then graphic pictures of your [laughs]
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: Thingummy.
BB: All the aftermath of all of that yeah.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: But to scare you as well and to give you information.
AML: Aye. It did. I never ever met anyone to my knowledge.
BB: No. No. Ok. Well as I said it’s nothing you would sort of say, hey. You know. But the other thing I want to talk about is LMF. Lack of moral fibre. Did you have any knowledge or —
AML: I never met anybody of LMF.
BB: No. Anybody on your squadron or the station that —
AML: Our first navigator.
BB: That you know.
AML: Our first navigator. We’d had a long protracted training at OTU because we kept losing people.
BB: Right.
AML: We lost two navigators at OTU.
BB: What? They were scrubbed?
AML: Aye. Scrubbed.
BB: Yeah.
AML: The first one just suddenly packed up his nav bag one night and said, ‘I’m not having any more of this.’ And disappeared. That’s the last we saw of him.
BB: Right.
AML: I don’t think it was LMF. It was just a case of —
BB: Just got out of it.
AML: I mean he was fully qualified to be a navigator.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: And then the next thing what happened to me was much the same. Two navigators on the trot and of course —
BB: That would have delayed you graduating from OTU.
AML: Yeah. Of course the pundits said to us, ‘Oh you’ll get a lot of hours in Wellingtons you’ll finish up in the Far East in Wellingtons.’ This sort of thing. You know. That’s what happened to us. That’s why we were held up first of all.
BB: Right. Ok. And the other and the other issue was morale generally. Because at your time with, in Bomber Command it was towards the end. Was morale fairly high?
AML: Oh aye. Very high. Yeah. Yeah.
BB: Yeah. I mean the losses had, the losses in Bomber Command were horrendous.
AML: Oh aye I’d be the first to admit that. It was unfortunate of course. People getting killed the last day of the war.
BB: Yes.
AML: That happened.
BB: Yes.
AML: But we didn’t have the colossal losses they had in —
BB: 1943.
AML: 1943/44.
BB: 1944. Early ’44. Yeah.
AML: Oh No. No. No.
BB: The Battle of the Ruhr. The Battle of Berlin.
AML: That’s right. That’s right. That’s when the chop rate—
BB: Were more or less gone
AML: That’s when the chop rate were really something to —
BB: But German night fighters were still flying.
AML: Oh yeah.
BB: When they got the fuel.
AML: Yeah.
BB: And the flak was just –
AML: Yeah. Flak was, your biggest worry was flak.
BB: Did you ever get to see any of the German jets?
AML: Yes.
BB: The Luftwaffe jets.
AML: Yes. I saw a 163 in actual action. It’s all in my logbook.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: And we went to [pause] the last raid of the war we did. I saw a 163 way below us [schwoooo noise]
BB: That was the Bremen. Bremen.
AML: Bremen.
BB: Yes.
AML: Aye. Aye. Aye. But no —
BB: It didn’t, it didn’t attack or —
AML: No. It had come up — I think 5 Group went to Hamburg the same day.
BB: Right.
AML: And —
BB: Of course you were in 4 Group.
AML: I was in 3 Group.
BB: Sorry. 3 Group.
AML: Some of the things I’m telling you now is on reflection. I mean I would need to really, you know think what exactly it was what it was on reflection I can remember.
BB: Right.
AML: Because I don’t want to line shoot to you under any circumstance. No. That was, that was, I saw a 16. I saw, I saw 262s in Germany after the war.
BB: After the war. On the ground.
AML: We were over in France.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And I saw them there.
BB: Yeah.
AML: They were certainly a very terrible aeroplane. Wonderful.
BB: Right. Now. Dropping the food parcels and other things to the Dutch. That must have been very rewarding.
AML: Oh very. Great. Great.
BB: Because the Dutch were starving at that stage.
AML: The great thing about it was you were allowed to fly low.
BB: Yes.
AML: Down to two hundred or less. Three hundred feet. In fact lower. My skipper took us down to about twenty eight feet some of the time. We were so low. Because he wanted to low fly and I used to say I’m getting water in to the tail turret [laughs] We flew low over —
BB: You did three of those you said.
AML: Pardon?
BB: You did three trips.
AML: We did three trips.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Yeah. Yeah
BB: And then the other humanitarian thing was bringing the POWs back.
AML: That’s correct. Bringing prisoners of war back. Yeah.
BB: From Italy and Germany.
AML: Yeah. The Americans were flying them from either lower or upper Silesia and we were picking them up at Juvincourt.
BB: Right.
AML: And I can remember I think the station was run by Germans as far as I can remember. Nearly all the German people seemed to be able to do the menial tasks there.
BB: Yes. Right.
AML: And then we, the Japanese war was still on of course.
BB: Yes. Of course.
AML: We were bringing them back from Germany at that time. Yeah.
BB: And they, they were obviously very pleased to get, be getting home.
AML: Oh yeah. Yeah.
BB: How many could you get in a Lancaster?
AML: I think I can remember off hand. It was either thirty or twenty six. I can’t honestly remember.
BB: And they all sat on the floor.
AML: Yeah.
BB: Or wherever they could.
AML: Yeah. They used to say in the air force you know this is a rubbish and that’s rubbish. I never saw organisation so wonderful as supply dropping and the prisoners of war. When we, when we went out to bring the prisoners of war back I can remember I was given a bag and in it was discs. And on the disc was a stencilled number one, two, three, four, five, six.
BB: Yeah. Whatever yeah.
AML: And on the fuselage someone had stencilled numbers inside the fuselage. And the idea was that I gave you a number five disc and you went in and the other gunner would say, ‘There’s number five. Sit there.’ And he sat on the floor.
BB: Yeah. Ok.
AML: At number five.
BB: So it was like a boarding, a boarding pass today.
AML: It was really.
BB: Yes.
AML: A very highly organised.
BB: Everybody had their place they had to sit.
AML: That’s right.
BB: And this would have been worked on a centre of gravity basis in the aircraft presumably.
AML: It must have been. Although it was some of the, some of the crew wanted to see land and of course they moved about, you know.
BB: Right.
AML: And I said, ‘Now don’t move about.’ You know.
BB: And did you ever go on any Cook’s Tours as well to look at the German cities that had been bombed.
AML: Yes. I did the Cook’s Tours as well. Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
AML: You’ll see the places we went to.
BB: Yes. That must have been quite sobering.
AML: We took, we took ground crew with us.
BB: Yes. Yes. Ground crew and the ground crew and the people from ops and the WAAFs.
AML: That’s right. Aye.
BB: And so on. Yeah.
AML: Took them with us. Aye.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: I forget where we went.
BB: Ok.
AML: You’ll see it.
BB: Did bomber Harris ever come to see you at the station?
AML: I think he did. As I told you, I think, yesterday.
BB: Yes.
AML: I can’t honestly remember but I’m almost certain somebody told me he did — I can’t, I would be wrong to tell you.
BB: No. No. He did go around.
AML: I’d be wrong to tell you. Yeah.
BB: How was he perceived by the guys on the squadron? Was he just, was he just Harris and that was it or –
AML: Oh aye. He was —
BB: Or did they actually —
AML: He was a good leader.
BB: Yeah.
AML: He did a lot for aircrew. He, again this is all —
BB: Yes.
AML: Sort of —
BB: Your own opinion. Yes.
AML: General talk.
BB: Right. Right.
AML: I don’t know how true or how bad it is.
BB: Right.
AML: But I understand he was the person who wanted every aircrew be commissioned. Or everybody LACs.
BB: Right.
AML: And I mean no different. He wanted all crews to be the same because they were all taking the same risks.
BB: Right.
AML: It couldn’t have worked that way.
BB: No.
AML: But that was the idea.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Most pilots of four engine aircraft were commissioned.
BB: Yeah. Or warrant officers.
AML: Or some —
BB: Yeah.
AML: We had two ome sergeant pilots.
BB: Yeah. A lot of sergeant pilots.
AML: They blotted their copy book but were so good they stayed as they were.
BB: Yeah.
AML: If you came on a squadron it was possible to be still a sergeant. Might have been a flight sergeant by the time he got to bomber, to thingummybob.
BB: Yeah.
AML: But there was. You’ll see on the crew list there.
BB: Yeah. Sergeants.
AML: Sergeants. Aye.
BB: And and and then you came out – what in ’47.
AML: I came out in ’47. I think it was ’47.
BB: ’47. You know the war had been finished a while so you had all that civilian.
AML: Flying.
BB: Flying. And you had obviously bringing back prisoners of war still at that time.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: Some weren’t being released until late.
AML: Yeah. Yeah. We converted on to Lincolns before I came out.
BB: That’s right. Because they were —
AML: Tiger Force.
BB: Tiger Force. That’s right, they’re the ones that were going to go to Japan but didn’t happen because they dropped the atomic bomb.
AML: No. Just as well.
BB: Yes. And so you didn’t consider staying in as a regular? Transferring to the regular air force after the war.
AML: Yes and no. But then somebody said, ‘Well, ok you stay in.’ Who the hell wants a gunner when the war’s finished? I’d have to re-muster probably.
BB: Well it had them in the Lincolns so you would have been a very experienced air gunner if you’d stayed on the Lincolns.
AML: Ah. No. I mean they were on the Lincolns. Ok
BB: They’d probably give you a job on ops or something like that.
AML: I didn’t – Unless I was flying I wasn’t interested.
BB: No. Ok. So you weren’t tempted. One because you had this very good job in Civvy Street which was being held for you.
AML: Well that’s right.
BB: Yeah.
AML: At that time it wasn’t such a good job. Just a normal clerk’s job.
BB: But it was a regular job.
AML: But I had a job to come back to.
BB: It was a regular job.
AML: Plus the fact my mother was living alone.
BB: Yes. Exactly. Here.
AML: Here.
BB: Right.
AML: And I thought well what am I going to do?
BB: Yeah. That’s right.
AML: Funnily enough I met quite a few chaps who I’d served with in the squadron who had stayed on and signed on and finished up at Lossiemouth.
BB: Oh yes.
AML: And when I went to Elgin. My first posting with the civil service at Elgin.
BB: That’s very close to Lossiemouth.
AML: I met one of these guys, one or two guys in the pub. They said, ‘You should go back in again. The money’s good.’ And I half thought of going back.
BB: Yeah. Because you could have re-mustered.
AML: Oh well.
BB: Because they, you were, once they awarded your brevet.
AML: Yeah.
BB: You wore it forever.
AML: You wore it. Yeah.
BB: Unless you did something really wrong.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: And they took it away from you.
AML: Yeah. Oh no.
BB: But you know I —
AML: They couldn’t take your brevet off you.
BB: But when I was a reservist I was one for thirty three years. When I first joined as APO, acting pilot officer up at Kinloss and other stations you had these old hairies as we used to call them. Who still had their —
AML: That’s right.
BB: You know, wartime brevets on.
AML: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
BB: But they’d been re-mustered as ops clerks.
AML: Did you never, did you never fly at all Bruce?
BB: In Nimrods.
AML: Oh Nimrods.
BB: I used to fly in the Nimrods.
AML: What as? Not as aircrew though.
BB: No. I was —
AML: I thought you said the technical. Aye.
BB: Well I was in intelligence so I was there to look at things. Yeah. Yeah.
AML: No. I never thought much about that.
BB: No. No. But they were a great bunch. And of course the Nimrod is a multi crew aircraft.
AML: That’s right.
BB: So it had kinships to Bomber Command.
AML: Oh yeah. Yeah. That’s right.
BB: You know. You had your crew.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: And you know everybody stuck together and —
AML: Oh you could read each other like a book.
BB: Oh yes. And of course we had to brief those crews much the same. And it hasn’t changed. You know, they’d all come to briefing. They’d sit down. The wing commander would stand up. Or the group captain would stand up. The curtains would be drawn.
AML: That’s it.
BB: Just like that.
AML: Aye.
BB: And they would either go [groan] another Atlantic trip or another Mediterranean trip or wherever it was. And all the plot would be up there. Where everything was.
AML: Isn’t it funny that you found out about your crew in many ways? Our wireless operator thought he was the greatest wireless operator in the world.
BB: And was he?
AML: I don’t know. But anyway we had an exercise we did occasionally to go out to the North Sea or out to the Atlantic to — navigation really .
BB: Yeah. Nav ex.
AML: To find a weather ship.
BB: A weather ship.
AML: Or a destroyer. Or something.
BB: Yeah.
AML: I can’t remember all the details. And you had to signal and of course he was in the astrodome and of course aldis they had in the Navy you see —
BB: The aldis lamp.
AML: Aye.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And I always remember he couldn’t read so he said to send up, ‘Please send slowly.’ [laughs] He couldn’t read the navy. You know, they were, they were tremendous. You know.
BB: Yeah, that’s right.
AML: I’ll always remember that.
BB: That’s right.
AML: And my skipper. He hated, he didn’t like landing in the half light and it used to annoy my navigator furiously because you were coming back and I’ m talking about, this is basically after the war. Of course during the war you were restricted what you could and couldn’t do. A long cross country you know.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Our navigator was a great one for food. He was desperate for food. And he would say, ‘I’ve packed up my nav bag. You’re alright. You’ll be over the fields in ten minutes.’ And Jack would say, ‘I want a dog leg.’ And he would get a fury, ‘What the hell are you on about?’
BB: I want to eat my sandwiches.
AML: ‘I want to land in the dark.’ And I said why do you like landing in the dark?’ He said, ‘What I can’t see doesn’t bother me.’ [laughs]
BB: Yeah. Well that’s very true.
AML: Yeah. That was him.
BB: Yeah.
AML: He liked to land in the dark. Yeah.
BB: That’s good. That’s right. And then of course when they came back from their trips in the Nimrod, just like in Bomber Command, we would sit down and debrief them.
AML: That’s right.
BB: And they used to hate that.
AML: Aye. Aye.
BB: Because they wanted to get away to their bed or get their breakfast.
AML: That’s right.
BB: Or whatever.
AML: The trouble with that was with your egg. We got an egg with everything.
BB: Yeah. But you really had to be very strict with them and say, ‘No. Let’s get this done and then you can go.’
AML: You had to get an egg with everything.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And the favourite was, ‘I’ll have his egg if he’s not coming back’
BB: if you’re not coming back.
AML: This sort of thing.
BB: And of course you must have seen even even at that late stage of the war, bomber offensive, you must have seen vacant chairs at breakfast and —
AML: Aye well —
BB: Guys that didn’t, that went out and didn’t come back.
AML: Funny. We were very fortunate on 15. I don’t think the time I was on it we had a very heavy —
BB: Casualty rate.
AML: Casualty rate. Funnily enough one of the chaps in the Aircrew Association was on 15. A hell of a nice bloke. He was shot down in France. I didn’t know him in the squadron but he was shot down in France. Had quite a rough time getting out. Eventually captured and became a prisoner of war.
BB: Right.
AML: And was on The Long March.
BB: Right. Ok.
AML: He was on the same squadron as I was. 15.
BB: Right. That must have been.
AML: Quite a lucky squadron. 15.
BB: That wasn’t great.
AML: I don’t think we had colossal losses on 15. I don’t know why or how. I don’t remember saying oh —
BB: What about, what about losses at OTU? HCU. There must have been crashes there.
AML: They were quite high. Yeah. Those. Somebody said to me after, of course, please understand I’m talking fifty sixty years ago.
BB: Yeah. I understand.
AML: Somebody said there was almost a crash every day at OTU. Now, I couldn’t ascertain that or confirm that. I don’t know.
BB: Well —
AML: But there were certainly one or two crashes when we were at OTU.
BB: I know that my late uncle was killed as an OTU. Instructing.
AML: Yeah.
BB: At Westcott. Number 11 OTU.
AML: Yeah. And we had one or two hairy do’s at OTU.
BB: And we paid, we paid tribute to him a couple years ago and all the guys at OTUs. And I did my research and something like eight thousand aircrew killed at OTU in Bomber Command. And just in Bomber Command.
AML: Probably would be. Well the chop —
BB: From collisions or bad landings.
AML: The chop rate on Wellingtons was quite high.
BB: Yeah. One in ten.
AML: They were second hand aircraft at OTU.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: I mean they weren’t, aircraft had been sent to OTU. You know.
BB: Yes.
AML: So we understand. I don’t know.
BB: And they went didn’t they? Yeah. Well there were, yeah. Well you take the Whitleys. They were front line aircraft.
AML: That’s right.
They were relegated to the OTUs.
AML: That’s right. Yeah.
BB: You know you went on the Whitleys.
AML: Well, they certainly were.
BB: And the Wellingtons as well.
AML: Wellingtons at OTU.
BB: And the Stirlings of course at the Heavy Conversion Unit.
AML: Aye. Heavy Conversion. Stirlings. Aye. Aye.
BB: Because they didn’t, they —
AML: They took them off.
BB: You either went to a Heavy Conversion and then on to a Lancaster Finishing School but you —
AML: I don’t know why we did that.
BB: Didn’t do that.
AML: This is the thing. Quite a lot of people — had to believe, hard to believe I was on Stirlings. Most of them went from OTU to Lanc Finishing School.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AML: And that was it. I don’t know why we went on. I don’t know. Just the way the system worked.
BB: The system worked. Yeah.
AML: We went, they went on to to that and we weren’t really long on Stirlings.
BB: No.
AML: But we were on Stirlings anyway.
BB: But it gave the heavy, it gave you the heavy, it gave the crew the sort of heavy experience that they needed.
AML: Aye. I liked the Stirling very much indeed.
BB: It looked a very roomy aircraft.
AML: It was a very roomy aircraft. Just like a big Sunderland.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: Really is.
BB: Yes.
AML: And I liked it.
BB: A Sunderland with wheels.
AML: Yeah. I didn’t care much for the Lincoln.
BB: Well it was a kind of a hybrid wasn’t it? You know.
AML: A hybrid. I didn’t care much for Lincolns.
BB: We’ll add a bit of this and add a bit of that.
AML: We had a twenty millimetre cannon on a Lincoln.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: And a lot of trouble with them and a lot of trouble —
BB: They used them in, against the terrorists in Malaysia.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: The Australian Lincolns anyway.
AML: We never did that and I think latterly the two turrets that took the twenty millimetres out the turrets. I can’t remember honestly but I flew in the tail of a Lincoln all the time. I flew first, initially I flew as an air gunner instructor and for a while the rule was flying that when we first got Lincolns they were nearly all ex-instructors that were in the top turrets.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: Because the bloody cannon recoiled across your head. If you moved out the road the, rotated, you could get your head taken off easily.
BB: Right. Right.
AML: These are things you remember yet you couldn’t put down on paper and say this is the God’s truth. You know.
BB: No. No. No. No. I know.
AML: It’s just the things I remember. It’s difficult.
BB: Well Alistair thank you very much for for telling us your story and we do appreciate it very much. And I’ll now terminate the interview. And I’ll have a look at your logbooks and other bits and pieces if I may.
AML: Aye. Aye. Sure. Sure.
BB: Yeah. Thank you.
AML: A lot of that stuff of course you’ll probably be able to edit out. You won’t use it all will you?
BB: No. No I don’t think so.
AML: No.
BB: And also thank you for signing the sheets and the other forms that I’ve asked you to sign. Thank you very much. So —
AML: Aye. Aye. Aye.
BB: So —
AML: I think you’ll find that most aircrew don’t really talk very much about it to other people unless it’s aircrew people.
BB: Right.
AML: And you can always find out somebody immediately they start saying, for example that I was told to bale out, and the crew – the nineteen crew baled out, you know someone makes a mistake.
BB: Yeah.
AML: You know right away that they’re actually line shooters. Ahat they said, you know.
BB: Yeah.
AML: You can’t really.
BB: No.
AML: Well we never did that, you know. Like on our squadrons, we cleaned our guns, well a lot – we didn’t do that on our squadron. I depended on the gunnery.
BB: The armourers used to do that.
AML: Yeah.
BB: But mind you had to be able to clear blockages in the aircraft.
AML: Oh yeah. Sit down, blindfold, sit down blindfold.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: And all that sort of thing.
BB: Right.
AML: But each squadron had its own different thing that depended how the CO looked at a particular item.
BB: Right.
AML: He might say, ‘Well I want you to do this,’ and you did it.
BB: What about dinghy drills and things like that.
AML: We did that as well. Yeah.
BB: Was that a regular thing?
AML: I don’t think so. No. We went to [pause] now where did we go? When we were at OTU we went to the Leicester Baths.
BB: Yes.
AML: And the baths were blacked out.
BB: Sure.
AML: And you got in first of all and they said, ‘Right this is your dinghy drill.’ There were RAF instructors I’m sure there. We all went up in one of these big huge big gareys. These big trucks they had with maybe four or five crews. Or three crews anyway. And we wondered why these guys were all dashing to go in such a hurry, you and saying, ‘You’re bloody keen,’ but we didn’t realise that if you went in first you got dry flying kit. If you went in second you put a dirty, you put a wet flying kit on.
BB: Ok right.
AML: You put the flying kit on you see.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And you had to use this and you had to jump in the dinghy with the lights out.
BB: Yeah.
AML: That’s why you had a whistle.
BB: Sure. Because it was dark. Simulating Bomber Command.
AML: The whistle was supposed to, aye. That’s why the aircrew used whistles.
BB: Whistles.
AML: Every aircrew whistled you know.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And you did this. Then they turned the dinghy upside down.
BB: You had to right it.
AML: You’ve got to right the dinghy again.
BB: Right.
AML: Exactly.
BB: And it was a five man dinghy. Or a seven man dinghy.
AML: Five man dinghy. Something like that.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: These are the sort of things you remember. That was one of the things. Why were they in such a hurry to get in? Because that was —
BB: What about using the parachute? Did you have any training?
AML: No.
BB: On how to do that?
AML: No. Never had any training on the parachute training at all.
BB: It was just there it is. Count. One. Two. Three. And pull the string.
AML: That’s right. That’s right. I think basically the reason would be that if you had to do a parachute jump and something had happened you wouldn’t jump in an emergency.
BB: No.
AML: You know you may be frightened to do that.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. And that’s very good wisdom. Yes. Because —
AML: I think probably. I don’t know.
BB: If it’s your first time to go anyway.
AML: These are things that have come up in reflection when you were talking to a pupil.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Maybe that’s the reason why we didn’t do that.
BB: Yeah.
AML: You know.
BB: Ok.
AML: I don’t think there was any sort of written down about that. But we did do a bit of, of what I can remember now, we were in a hangar and we seemed to get a harness on.
BB: Oh yeah and swing a bit.
AML: And you jumped and you swung down and landed.
BB: Yeah. Just tell you how to land.
AML: Close your knees and this sort of thing, you know.
BB: Yeah. And what about parades and drills? Did you do squadron parades?
AML: Air crew are notorious for not wanting drills you know.
BB: Yeah.
AML: We really were a rough shower. I mean we were really were. I mean we got away with murder. I mean I must admit.
BB: Well I can assure you they haven’t changed.
AML: Yeah. If we could get away with it we got away with it.
BB: Yeah.
AML: I’m not going to bore you to tears of course, I hope.
BB: No.
AML: One of the great things you would probably know — after the war things changed of course dramatically as you can well imagine. And they had, I think it was a Friday. I can’t remember. The whole airfield shut down. And you had to participate in organised games.
BB: Oh yes.
AML: The whole station. WAAF. Everybody had to go on organised games. And it was organised in as much as they came around the gunnery section and said, ‘Right. Who’s all going to be play football?’ ‘Who’s all going to play rugby?’ ‘Who’s all going to play netball?’ You know. This sort of thing. It was all down. Your name was put down.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And I, when you’re out in your —
BB: Your PT kit.
AML: Your PT kit and your fancy [unclear] You went down to the front of the hangars and somebody would, I can’t remember, maybe the station would detail all the crews. Who’s going to be?’ And I hated sport. I hated sport. I never was fit. My father was a football referee and all that. I had no time for sport. I still don’t have time for sport. Anyway, I thought well this is bloody terrible.
BB: So what did you do? How did you get out of that?
AML: Well —
BB: Stay in the goal and hope nobody came near it.
AML: No. Well it was quite regular. You had to be back at a certain time. And I thought how can I bloody get out of this thing and I happened to hear one day to hear oh he said there’s flying. I said how do you get in to Waddington, or how do you get to so and so. Oh we’re flying. And I thought so I said to skipper, ‘Did you hear that?’ Because he hated sport too. And I said, ‘Can you no volunteer us to fly crews up?’ And he always wanted somebody in the tail, we all, so that would be a good idea. We got away with that for, however, we didn’t get away, they said right. I said, ‘Well what’s the least supervised job you could get?’ Cross country running.
BB: Go away and hide somewhere.
AML: So we used to run in to the pub [laughs] we used to put a pound note in our shoe.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And around the nearest pub and sit in the pub and then come running back.
BB: Running back. I see.
AML: We got caught out because when the squadron sports came on.
BB: Yeah.
AML: They couldn’t get relay through. The three mile relay run. They couldn’t get, the skipper said, well the CO said, ‘All those who did cross country running can do it.’ We nearly got killed doing this ruddy thing after. You know.
BB: Never mind. Ok.
AML: We were found out, you know.
BB: Right.
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AMcPhersonLambA150726
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Interview with Alexander Lamb. One
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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00:47:13 audio recording
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Pending review
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Bruce Blanche
Date
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2015-07-26
Description
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Alexander Lamb grew up in Scotland and worked in the civil service before he joined the Royal Air Force. He flew five operations as an air gunner with 15 Squadron.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Wales--Bridgend
Contributor
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Julie Williams
11 OTU
14 OTU
15 Squadron
1654 HCU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Gee
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lincoln
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Feltwell
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wyton
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/177/2340/ABattyPH161014.1.mp3
5c4ac0fc187b4591d3ca4948980d7baf
Dublin Core
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Title
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Batty, Philip
Phil Batty
P Batty
Description
An account of the resource
19 Items. The collection consists of one oral history interview with Philip Batty (b. 1925). He discusses the death of his older brother Dennis early in the Second World War, his wartime service with 50 Squadron at RAF Sturgate as a wireless operator/ air gunner, and his long post war career. The collection also includes a number of group photographs of airmen after training, photographs of aircraft in southern Africa, his log book and propaganda material.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-14
Identifier
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Batty, P
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CH: Right, this interview is taking place at Phil Batty’s home in Wellingore, Lincolnshire on the 14th of October 2016, it’s being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. The interviewer is Cathie Hewitt, also present are Guilia Sanzone, Ann Batty and Chris Aram. Okay Phil, if you’d like to give me this information of your date and place of birth and your early childhood.
PB: Right, well, I was born on the 7th of March 1925, at a small village in Yorkshire. Er, my parents, my father was, actually in the Flying Corps in World War One, and he, he stayed in after the war and married my mother in 1918, but mother didn’t care for the Air Force, they were stationed at Castle Bromwich, and father decided that they would leave and he got himself a job as a draughtsman at Rolls Royce in Derby, but unfortunately came the depression and he was laid off, the only job that he could find was in the mines up in Yorkshire, which is where we went, but mother hated that even more, she was determined that we were not going to stay there [laughs] and er, we emigrated back to the West Midlands where father got a job with Walsall Town Council as a roads foreman, and, that’s where I was brought up and educated, at Elmore Green Central School. Mother didn’t care for that either [laughs] I went to sit the entrance examination for I think it was the King Edward Grammar School in Birmingham, I passed it but unfortunately Walsall refused to pay the fees. So, I was stuck in Walsall and went to Elmore Green for my secondary education. I was quite happy there, and, I stayed there until of course war broke out in 1939 when I was fourteen, I was just about to leave school anyway, I’d got a job at the town council myself in the transport department as a clerk, and, there I sat, waiting for things to happen. My brother Dennis, of course was a fully qualified wireless operator air gunner [indistinct], he was with 226 Squadron and once the army got themselves organised they all deployed over to France as the advanced air striking force with the British Expeditionary Force. They were equipped with Fairey Battles, a single engine light bomber, utterly unequipped to face the Luftwaffe, but there they are, and there we sat and waited. Dug a big hole in the back garden, built ourselves an Anderson shelter [laughs] and that sort of thing and waited for the real war to start, which eventually, it did, with a bang, crash, wallop, and, er, Dennis came home when the army retreated, they suffered horrendous losses. He kept a little diary while he was in France of his — of his friends who didn’t come back, because the Messerschmitts knocked them out of the sky like fly swatting really, er, but he came home eventually with his kit bag full of champagne and [laughs] and stayed with us for about a week and then went back, and his squadron reformed with Blenheims and were based at Wattisham, and there they started to bomb the Channel ports where the Germans were then assembling an invasion fleet. It was on bombing, there was bombing raids they went in, inland to bomb an airfield, and they were attacked by some Messerschmitts, the pilot was hit, in the neck, but Dennis shot one Messerschmitt down and that put them off, they left them alone and they got back to base safely and that's where all three of them were awarded the DFM. And, Dennis came home to celebrate. Unfortunately he was posted up to Scotland, I think he was going on the gunnery leaders’ course, but this is a week later and he was killed in a flying accident [pause]. This was my first [pause] real [pause] [cries].
CH: Would you like to take a break?
[interview paused]
CH: Okay?
PB: And er, of course, that’s the last thing my mother wanted [laughs] she said, ‘No, no way, you’ll never pass the medical’, ‘cause I’d had an ear operation, she said, ‘You won’t pass’, [interference] anyway, she said, ‘You’re not going until you’re called up’, and of course eventually I was [laughs]. Passed the medical, went for aircrew, went to Birmingham to the attestation centre, er, which was where they gave you a little exam to make sure you could read and write a little essay and that sort of thing, and, then they did [indistinct] a little test with a little machine keeping a dot in the centre, and they said, ‘Oh, what do you want to be?’, and I said, 'Well I want to be a wireless operator air gunner’, they said, ‘Oh you, no we’re, what about pilot, navigator, you know?'. I said er, ‘Well, how long’s that take?’. He said, ‘Well, you’ll be put on a list and we’ll call you when we want you’, but I said, ‘Will I be quicker being a WOP AG’, he said ‘Yeah a bit’, I said, ‘I’ll have it’ [laughs] and er, that was it then, er, course mother was dead against it, but I said, ‘I’ll be alright’, [emphasis] you know it’s, I hadn’t the faintest idea of course that the losses were mounting for bomber crews at the time but, anyway eventually I got this paper asking me to report to Lords cricket ground, I thought, whatever, funny place for the Air Force, but off I go and they were playing at the time, I think it was the West Indies, I’m not sure, but that’s where you got issued with uniform, numbers, 2220759, ha, ha [laughs] you never forget it [laughs] and er, all the stuff you needed, and put your civilian clothes in a suitcase and send ‘em home, and, we were accommodated in London, in flats at the time being, for a little while, and then put on a train to Bridlington. Bridlington by the sea, yes, and there we were taught to march, yes, and I thought oh God, if this is aircrew, you know, I thought we were going to fly [emphasis] but no, we were marching up and down the promenade and [laughs] and er, learning the Morse code and that sort of thing, signalling by lamp and all the rest of it, and er, we were there for about , I suppose about four to six weeks and then I was posted down to the radio school at Madley to be taught the real skills of being a wireless operator air gunner and, there started the real training really. Er, I was there, I suppose about eight months, passed out, but that was the real jump [indistinct] because when you got your brevet, you got immediate promotion to sergeant, and now this is a big lump, a big jump really, er, and I was posted at the same time over to a place called Staverton, just outside Gloucester. They had a sergeants’ mess, we had sheets [emphasis] on the bed [emphasis] [laughs] fantastic, and we had knives and forks set out in the mess, we thought, you know, we’ve started to live, yeh. Er, the other funny thing was that we were briefed secrecy, you will see an aeroplane here, which you’ve never seen in all your life because it hadn’t got a propeller, it just whistles, and of course it was the jet, the very first, and it did seem very odd I must admit. Er, and we were there for six weeks flying an Anson and that’s where I first met up with my navigator, John, and we flew together for some time, and I think it was when we finished at, there, we went off up north to Dumfries and by God it was cold, [emphasis] we were living in Nissen huts and they were freezing [emphasis] oh, one stove in the middle that everyone tried to huddle round and how it is, but, once again it was just about six weeks, and then we went to, down to the OTU, that was just outside Leicester, where we upgraded to Wellingtons and that’s where we got that leaflet, the operational crews were diverted in one night, and I must admit they all looked clapped out [laughs] very tired, but er, I think that, we went, OTU was where we first started to fly as a crew, we picked up a pilot, a co-pilot, er, I still flew with John Tidmarsh, we’d been flying together then for six, seven months or so, so we de-, decided we’d stick together and the rest of the crew could join us [laughs] which is what we did, as you do, a little band of men. And, we did, I think it was a couple of months on Wellingtons, flying round the countryside practising navigation, bombing, and waiting to march onwards which we did eventually. We were posted to a Lancaster conversion unit, and I think I went to the one just outside Newark, er, it’s in my log book somewhere, and that was the, yes [pause]. Chris’ll find it in there [pause].
CA: Winthorpe.
CH: Winthorpe.
PB: After I, after we’d finished at the, I remember looking at the, where we were, 'cause it had big chimneys at the end of the runway, and I said to the pilot, he's a bloke called Ford, Henry, I said, ‘I hope you can manage to get a Lancaster over the top of those chimneys’, Henry [laughs] ‘they look pretty ominous to me’, he said, ‘Don’t you worry Phil’ [laughs]. Anyway, we passed and eventually 'cause we are coming to right to the end of the war now, and I didn’t, didn’t think we were going to make it before VE Day, we just about did it, we would have done, but not quite. We were posted to a squadron, posted to 50 Squadron at Sturgate and, off we went, and we’d just done the, squadron commander flew with us and pronounced us fit to join his squadron and, but I think it was a week later that we had VE Day, that was it, the war was over. So, we came into the briefing room one morning and saw [unclear] the squadron commander and said ‘Well fellas, well done’, he said, ‘It’s over’, he said, ‘We are now part of the Northern Striking Force', he said, 'Who we’re going to strike I don’t know but that's who we are’, he said, ‘5 Group are going out with Tiger Force to the Far East to fight the Japanese, but we’re staying here, but I’ve got some good news for you’, he said, ‘You can draw some khaki drill’, he said, ‘'Cause we are off to Italy on Monday’, [laughs] he said, ‘What we’re going to do’, he said, he said, ‘We’re going to pick up some prisoners of war up and bring 'em home’, he said, ‘Everyone, yes’, he said, ‘Our [emphasis] prisoners of war [laughs] not theirs’, he says 'We’ll paint twenty circles on the floor’, he said, ‘You put twenty passengers each and off you go’. 'And it’s like an operation, there’ll be sixty or so aeroplanes and some are going to Pomigliano and some to Bari, but we’re going to [unclear]’, he says, ‘Now there’s three things, one, do not try and change your money on the black market, none of that, don’t go down to Naples and get drunk on the local vino, right, and make sure you look after the soldiers [laughs] 'cause they won’t have flown’ [laughs]. But of course they hadn’t, but they were very pleased to jump on board the Lanc, er of course it took a long time, I think it was seven or eight hours trip each way but they didn’t care. Is that what you’re looking at Chris? Yes, they called it Operation Dodge, yes and we did one or two of those and, that was how the — the war virtually ended for me.
CH: Did you bring many prisoners back with you?
PB: Yeah.
CA: I don't think he heard you.
CH: Did you bring many prisoners back on the trips in the Lancasters?
PB: Pardon?
CH: Did you bring many prisoners back from Italy?
PB: Yes, yes, yes, and we landed in the UK at, Polebrook, yes, I don’t know how many times oh, er, eight was it, I don't know. Chris, I think is looking now [unclear]?
CA: Yes, at least eighty.
PB: I did several trips, anyway, yes, I remember that we went to see the ruins of Pompeii, John Tid — Tidmarsh and I, yes. While we were there we thought we might as well, yeah, yes, but, very interesting actually, yes, we did behave ourselves and we did realise that the best things to take out were cigarettes and coffee for trading, and er, we could hand those in and bring back jewellery and that sort of stuff, yes, from the Italians, yes, er, quite enjoyable. Chris is looking now in my logbook, which will be scanned presumably? Yes. The length of the time that the trips took, yeah, quite long, yeah, okay.
CH: What happened after you finished doing these trips bringing the prisoners back?
PB: That was it for the time being, erm, I was posted then to, out to Transport Command for a little while, and then the air force [background noises] in their wisdom thought [?], in their wisdom, sent me out to Southern Rhodesia for two and a half years, er, onto [?] the navigation training school, flying Ansons, where I had a marvellous time [laughs] I really did, I thoroughly enjoyed it, you know, there were no tourists, the game was wonderful, it really was, marvellous place. We went to Victoria Falls and that sort of thing, er, saw the whole of the country at low level 'cause we were flying Ansons, and the navigators for their passing out trip, we took 'em down to Cape Town and back again, and after two and a half years I came home, and I decided to stay in the Air Force and rejoin Bomber Command, and, they’d got Lincolns then, so I was back on the old Lincolns and posted to Wyton and I was waiting there when of course the atom bomb came in, and the old Lincoln, I’m afraid, wasn’t big enough. So we borrowed some B29s from the Americans, the air force called them the Washington, and er, we converted from the Lincoln to the Washington, and that’s where we ended up at, Coningsby er, on the B29 or the Lincoln, and that’s where I was for quite a while until I think that I moved around a bit, on coastal, I think that, I spent a —a little time converting, then I was posted out to Malta and did a tour out there, with my good lady [laughs]. The Cyprus problem blew up — [interruption]
CH: That's —
AB: And, we were doing trips from Malta to Cyprus, once round the island and back, sixteen hours [laughs] rather tiring, so they decided to send us out to Cyprus and, camp on the edge of the airfield instead, so we could do shorter trips. So, we ended up camping on Cyprus for a bit until it was [laughs], time for us to come home, which we did in nineteen, ooh, was that sixty we came home?
AB: I think so.
PB: Yes, something like that, and I was [pause] posted back up to, Coningsby I think.
AB: Topcliffe.
PB: Yeah, oh, Topcliffe one or the other, yes, and er, after that they sent me back to, Bomber, where I converted on to the Vulcan eventually, that’s where we stayed did we not? Yes, I think so. Yes, they, the Cypriots had taken the [background noises] the explosives in a sandwich — in a sandwich tin, just in it, just in between two pieces of bread and they put 'em on the hinges of the aeroplane and blew the wing off, yes, the pilots didn’t like it, no, weren’t too keen on that. So, they put closer guards on the aeroplanes, that’s the only thing they could do [background noises].
CH: What year was this?
PB: Yes.
CH: What year?
PB: Erm, gosh, what year was Cyprus Chris? It’s in there, when we're doing the Cypriot runs. Five, yeah, it’ll be listed there. [pause] 'Cause they were gun running as well, that’s what we were doing there [?] just trying to pick up the gun runners at night [background noises].
[inaudible]
CH: I'll pause that. What were you saying about the Cypriots?
PB: They were very clever in the way they smuggled their weapons and stuff in, that’s why we were doing these orbits around Cyprus at night to try and catch the boats, the little boats they used to get weapons over, and explosives and that sort of stuff, yeah.
CH: Was this the time of EOKA?
PB: Yes, exactly, yes, yes. [pause] I think it was eighty something, yes.
CH: That would have been in the fifties, nineteen fifties.
PB: Yes, that’s it [indistinct]. But I moved over onto the Vulcan, 'cause we went off to Finningley for our conversion and I’d only flown on piston aircraft, piston air, and I sat in this, monster and he said, er, ‘opening the throttles, full throttle’, whump, and I found myself up over my seat and I thought, good grief, [laughs], and I, I got the instruments in front of me 'cause we’d got an altimeter and an airspeed indicator, and he shot down the runway and I watched the altimeter go like that [laughs], winding upwards [laughs]. I’m not in a fighter but a fantastic performance, it really was, but I did get used to it of course, in the end, but, one or two of the blokes I flew with like Dave Thomas and, and Andy, could really handle a Vulcan well. Dave Thomas, when we’d, we'd done a display, we were coming home one Sunday and he said, ‘Do you mind if I try and roll it?’ and I said, ‘Well, I don’t see any reason why you shouldn’t Dave’, and he did a roll and my desk lid lifted about half an inch and went down again, that’s all I knew, but somebody on the ground saw him, reported it to 1 Group Headquarters, and we were all summoned to see the AOC [laughs] 'cause we were both squadron leaders and he gave us both a right rollicking, and he said, ‘Don’t ever do that again’, [emphasis] well he said, ‘If you do don’t let anybody see you’, [laughs] ‘And would you like to stay for lunch’, [laughter] so he wasn’t really annoyed [laughs], but. Ah, ha, but, we did have some fun in the Vulcan one way and another [pause]. Ah. When we were training we were given a weekend off and, mother was always very pleased because we got a special, ration for aircrew and it added to her points, I think it doubled them just about and of course we got a free railway warrant, so I used to always, um, ask for a one to Birmingham and I used to exit at New Street station which was open and then catch the bus home, and that way I ended up with a few free tickets, you see, that I, I could use later on, which I did and during the war, yes it was very handy, but , yes every six weeks we were sent, to, to clear off and have a rest, eh, because we never knew but the sky over Britain was, must have been full of aeroplanes at night, that we didn’t know about, there was no radar cover, nothing like that, you just flew and fingers crossed, hope for the best that you saw everybody else, eh, fortunately we survived, no problems [laughs].
CH: Did you keep in contact with any of your crew that you flew with in the war?
PB: Yes, yes, eh, I haven’t contacted Henry, I did John Tidmarsh for a little while, I’ve lost contact with him.
AB: Johnny, Johnny King.
PB: Yes, but , Johnny King that, flew with since the war, yes, still in contact with him, he's in Canada but, we're in regular contact, yes, we flew together on, on Lincolns, yes, in fact he was a flight engineer and then, changed to pilot, trained to be a pilot, yeah.
AB: Lorenzo, Lorenzo.
PB: Yes, eh, anything else I’ve forgotten?
AB: Lorenzo.
PB: Oh yes, I kept in contact with Keith but he’s dead now of course, passed away.
AB: The Canadian ones, we’ve been over to Canada and stayed with them.
PB: But, [interrupted].
CH: Were there Canadians in your crew?
PB: Er, no, no there was, one Irish and the other one was a Londoner, the two gunners, yeah, one London, one Irish and one London. Paddy Mack [?], he was the rear gunner and there’s a little London fella, I can’t remember his name is the mid upper gunner, and I was the reserve gunner if necessary [laughs] but, I was never used [pause]. I think that’s about all I can remember, apart from the fact that flying was always cold, very, very cold [emphasis]. The only warm place in the Lancaster was in my position in fact, er, that wasn’t too bad, but the rest of them the Anson and the Wellington were perishing [laughs]. You used to wear as much clothing as we could to keep warm and you could hear the gunner in the back cracking the ice in his oxygen mask [laughs], crunching away [laughs], [coughs] but eh, you learn to live with these things [pause]. On Vulcans, Andy Milne and er, the rest of them [interrupted]
AB: Dave Thomas.
PB: Yes, but I think Andy Milne [interrupted]
AB: Jerry Strange.
PB: Was the best, 'cause we, we went on the bombing competition twice so we must have been pretty good [interrupted]
AB: And won, each time.
PB: But eh, yes, we beat the Americans at one stage but er, out in Barksdale, they didn’t like that very much [laughs], poor old, but they’ve been very good to us the Yanks I must admit, yes, um, but yes that was, that was a very good crew I must admit and we, we're still in touch, all of us. Yes, Andy's down in Devon with his own small holding, and, but our co-pilot settled in the Far East, built himself a house [unclear]
[inaudible]
PB: And er, my navigator’s still around, he comes, still comes to the meetings occasionally [pause] but, trying to think that’s, that’s about the limit of -. 'Course, there was our, my crash in the Vulcan, that was quite interesting [laughs]. Well we got to — went out to fly one day, Flight Lieutenant Galway was the captain at the time and, I was the AEO, Stan Grierson was the co-pilot, and we had, Alan Bowman and, was the radar. Anyway we got, this, almost brand-new Vulcan, it had got about ten hours on the air frame. Anyway, climbed on board, and set off and we were flying about an hour, when Ivor said, ‘The hydraulic pressure's reading zero’, I said, ‘Well tap the gauge Ivor, you know, use the old knuckle’, [laughs] he tapped it, wouldn’t come back you know, I said oh, ‘Hang on then I’ll see if it’ll move my,’ got a little scoop on the rover gas turbine in the wing, a little motor, I put my switch on and off, didn’t move, I said, ‘This looks ominous Ivor, it looks to me as if we’ve lost all our hydraulic pressure’, ‘But we’ve got air, we’ve got air, yes, have no fear, we’ll go back and use the air,’ he says, 'Okay, right', so we, we came back to base and um, burnt off a bit of fuel, you know as much as we could and then he said, ‘Right selecting emergency air, undercarriage down,’ down it went, bang’ [emphasis]. Two greens, one red. Oh dear, [sigh] ‘Which is the one?’ he said, ‘It’s the starboard wing, port undercarriage has not gone down and locked’. Now that’s bad, you can’t do anything about that at all. ‘I’ll check the electrics just to make sure that it’s not a fuse’, it wasn’t. So, he said, ‘Well , what about bailing out?’ I said, ‘Bailing out!, the nose wheels down', I said, 'I’ll go sliding out and the first thing I’m going to hit is the nose wheel,’ I said, I’m not too keen on that Ivor, if you don’t mind,’ I said, ‘The navigator and the radar might want to have a go?’ but, he looked at me and said, ‘No sir, I said, ‘What are you going to do Ivor?’, he said, ‘Well, I’m going to land her’, he said, ‘I’m going to try and land’, I said, ‘Well I'm, you are going to have two, three passengers on board as well, so to make sure you don’t clear off we’ll keep the safety pins in the seats all right, if you don’t mind, so you don’t accidently pull those handles and disappear,’ [laughs] he said, ‘Right oh,’ he said, I said, ‘Well, shall we prepare for a crash landing,’ he said, ‘That’s a good idea,’ so, we went through the drill, he said, ‘What we’ll do, we’ll pull the handle, get rid of the canopy, so that we can get out of the top at the front if anything happens,’ you know, that, and he said, ‘We'll, we’ll try.’ So he, he did a roller and it held up, but eh, and we went round again, came in, he said, ‘Well, here we go, hang on fellas.’ And eh, as he lowered the wing, bump [emphasis] down it went, straight onto the ground [laughs]. Round we went, twice [laughs]. We came to a halt about twenty yards from another Vulcan [laughs]. The bottom, our exit was okay, it was clear, actually, we could get out and the aero, the aeroplane was still upright, there was enough room for us to get out and clear off, which we did, as quickly as possible [laughs]. The aeroplanes left there with its wing on the ground, eh, yeh, a complete failure of the down leg had cracked [whispering], split, and all the hydraulic fluid had vented [?] to air. Nothing you could do about it [background noises].
CH: Let’s just pause this.
[interview paused]
PB: Crash landed twice in Rhodesia, [laughs] flying along and the pilot [background noises] said to me, ‘The controls have jammed,’ he said, ‘I can’t move the control column Phil, [background noises] can you come and give me a hand up here?’ I did, we couldn’t shift it at all, we were in a steady slow climb, so he said, ‘[unclear] I'm going to wind full nose trim on, we’ll go down and look for somewhere flat’ [laughs]. Which is what he did, [laughs] we did a very slow descent, we got two nav- cadets on board and I said, ‘Get in your crash landing position, it might be a bit bumpy when we land,’ but they [unclear] were very good you know, straight in, bent the props back and all the rest of it, chopped the ground up a bit, but er, opened the back door and the two lads jumped out, not even a bruise, yeah, yes. A clapped out old Anson you see, the control cables had dropped through the guides and jammed, you couldn’t move 'em, but there we are [laughs]. These are little things you’ve got to be ready for [laughs]. Yes, I had a time when I had to fly the aeroplane back when the pilot fell asleep, as well, poor [unclear] Freddy [laughs]. I said, ‘Fred, [laughs] we need to go back to base Fred’, [laughs] Fred Holloway, ‘What you say Phil?’ [laughs]. I said, ‘One eighty and head for Thornhill Freddy,’ [emphasis] [laughs] ‘oh, you’ll have to do it Phil’, I said, ‘Oh, crikey, I’ve not done this before Freddy,’ [laughs] ‘Nothing to it,’ he said, ‘Just keep it steady,’ he was right, you know I just [laughs], half an hour we were back over the top and he was awake by this stage. I said, ‘Do you think you could land it Freddy?’ oh, got the goose necks out there they are, I could see them, oh, he managed it. Ah, he’d been flying continually for, I think it was a week we’d been doing night flying and without any rest, or something like that, he’d overdone it [pause] yes, right oh, [pause] yes. Well the, the trips to the Congo were, well the Russians packed it in, they wouldn’t go, they, they’d got their aircraft out there, but , they said it was too dangerous, apparently. The weather was always icy [unclear], you know, going through the front but, we just, filled the old Hastings up with their soldiers and off we went and did it, but , we managed to get there and back okay.
CH: What was it that you were doing in the Congo?
PB: Ferrying the United Nations troops from, Nigeria and Ghana into the Congo to, as a peacekeeping — peacekeeping force really, because there were, having a, a dreadful war out there, Katanga, and political as well. They were slaughtering each other left, right and centre, as they do, out there, and so that’s what we were doing, ferrying the troops back and forth [pause]. RAF Transport Command, the black people saw 'em and thought they were commandos, that we were ferrying commandos in to attack them. And eh, we had to go through Leopoldville, which every time we went through, this chap in his ragged [unclear] came out with his hand, wanting so many thousand dollars so that we could go through and get into the Congo proper, where we wanted to be, and, I've forgotten how many thousand dollars we had to hand over, and if you didn’t they set up a light machine gun and trained it on the aeroplane, [laughs] so we paid [laughs]. Yes, we had to put on our United Nations hats, be part of the United Nations force, as opposed to the Royal Air Force [pause].
AB: I don’t know I didn’t hear what she said either Phil.
PB: Eh [unclear] yes, but , yes, yes, you never know — know when you were going to get through or not, that was the trouble, they tried to pull us back once because they thought we’d got the Prime Minister on board, they thought he was, the, the Prime Minister that had been giving them all the trouble, they thought we’d kidnapped him and we were taking him away [laughs] and they said, you must return to Leopoldville immediately, but er oh, it was old Bill Corker[?] who was flying, he says, ‘Tell 'em not bloody likely,’ [laughs] he said, ‘We’re going back to Accra as fast as we can [laughs] and we're not going back to Leopoldville, thank you’ [laughs]. Yes, that was their, the, the biggest problems were handling these people properly, so they could be very tricky these, black politicians. I’ve forgotten what his name was now but he was, [background noises] he caused a lot of trouble out there [pause], 'cause they’re all starving, and, we gave them all our food, all of us [unclear], as much as we could [pause].
AB: And this is one of the letters from the one he's talking about.
PB: Yes [unclear].
AB: Because they used to write regularly to us, letting us know what was going on in the other, the half and I just thought there might be something in here, erm, well there is about killing two Europeans before they got off, before we let you go we are going to kill two Europeans. I’d have to go through the whole of the letter for. I think they're the only two letters we kept, we had piles of them, didn’t we? [pause]. Yes, why I brought that out that was to show you that that’s how we used to communicate.
PB: I remember that, that’s the first time I saw Dennis’s name in, in print after he was , in the chapter called, “Men Like These”, yeah.
AB: Yes, it is only a small part of it, but I just thought that you would be interested, you know, because a lot of it happened in the era that you don’t remember. But, I think maybe David’s got the book.
PB: Oh yes, possibly yes, the one with the red cover, yeah, yes, bit tatty but , yes, yes it was a good book, yes.
AB: Any book that’s got a bit about the family in it, is good [laughs].
PB: I’m sixty, four, forty, KCs, but, as I say the aircrew of course, treat these things with er, well I, I can’t say it really, because its racist but er, [laughter] ‘Hello, hello darkies speak to me you black’ [laughs] and such like, as aircrew a lot, but, bit like that I’m afraid [laughs]. But, er, he’d never heard of it he said, but I said, 'Oh I can assure you it was an emergency [unclear] system during World War Two'.
AB: I know this has only got to do with [unclear].
CA: Not to mention the high jinks you got up to after a dining in night, and you decided to drive down to London to see the Queen, in a sports car, four of you, do you remember that?
AB: I remember them going, yeah. I remember them coming home [laughs] yeah, but that, is that the sort of thing you also want to know about?
PB: What's that?
AB: When you and, erm, what’s his name, all climbed into his sports car to go to visit his auntie, in London.
PB: In Mayfair.
AB: You and?
PB: Stan Grierson.
AB: And Ivor Galway.
PB: And Ivor Galway.
AB: All in their mess kit.
PB: Yes, not, not the best thing to do.
CA: Not having [?] imbibed a certain amount of alcohol?
PB: Weren’t in our right senses, no. ‘We’ll go and see my aunt, she lives in Mayfair [interrupted].
AB: This is from Cottesmore [unclear].
PB: 'She’s got a very nice flat’. ‘Okay Stan, yes, let’s go’. We get the car [laughs] oh dear.
AB: Carry on love.
PB: Yes, then all the wives panic, ‘Where’s my husband gone?’ [laughs]. ‘Don’t know, haven’t the faintest idea?’ We were on our way home, safe and sound.
AB: Yes, all of us were ringing each other up, the wives, to find out, is he home yet, to [unclear], Ivor’s wife, ‘No he’s not home yet, haven’t heard from him’, 'Haven’t you heard from them?’ ‘No.’ They were in London, in their mess kit, all in one sports car, they'd stayed the night, had their breakfast with auntie and then set off to come home. Arrived home at, oh I don’t know, maybe eleven o’clock, eleven am, to irate wives as you can well imagine, having been, been one [laughs]. Go on carry on, what happened then?
PB: Well, that was it wasn’t it, young and irresponsible, absolutely, totally irresponsible.
CA: As children, we were told you’d gone to see the Queen.
AB: Yes [laughs].
PB: Especially for a mature gentleman like you, yes.
AB: Well, you were the oldest member of the crew, you were the responsible one, all the others were young.
PB: Yes exactly, yes, I was the leader, yeah, yeah.
AB: I mean what a thing to do after a dining in night, you'll know about the dining in nights and how they, raucous they can get. Let’s go to London and see the Queen.
PB: It seemed a good idea at the time, yes, yes [laughs].
AB: You can imagine them arriving in London can’t you, all in their mess kit [pause]. Auntie didn’t turn a hair, did she?
PB: No.
AB: Gave them breakfast and sent them on their way [laughs].
PB: Yes, she did have a very nice flat, in Mayfair.
AB: It’s a pity those sort of things can’t come in the thing, 'cause they are hilarious, you know, but erm, what else did you do?
PB: Oh well, I’ve always been a good fellow you know that, I haven’t done anything.
AB: What about the ones in Nottingham? Auntie, in Nottingham, and Fosco?
PB: [laughs] Yes.
AB: I think we wives could write a book.
PB: Yes, come home, all is forgiven, Mother Vallance [laughs].
AB: This was, shall I carry on with it? This was one, one of the young men was, was violently sick when they went to stay in this house in Nottingham where they all used to go if they couldn’t get home 'cause the last bus went at seven o’clock at night, I mean, ridiculous really, so they used to go and stay, and he was very sick in the bedroom and he didn’t tell any of the crew, 'til he got home, and of course, she, the landlady went up and found all this, and she, she eh, was furious obviously. They all sent her a bunch of flowers and a letter saying, you know, we are sorry about this, and she wrote a letter back saying, all is forgiven, come home, love Mother Vallance [laughter]. 'Cause, this is when they were all at Coningsby.
PB: [laughs].
AB: But there’s lots of little stories like that, you know, that don’t come under the terms of flying, you know, but I think we should do a book on what the wives remember [laughs].
PB: Yes.
AB: Anymore?
PB: No, he’s still going strong, isn’t he Fosco?
AB: Yes, the one who was sick, he must be about, they were, they were all probably five or six years younger than Phil, he was the oldest member of the crew, erm, so he will probably be in his early eighties.
PB: Yes.
AB: Still lives at Coningsby. It's funny thinking about them all now, you know, it —
PB: Yes.
AB: 'Cause, Ivor Galway, the pilot of the plane that crashed, he used to live at Woodhall Spa.
PB: Yes ah.
AB: She had an unhappy end didn't she, committed suicide, a lot of the wives couldn’t take the pressures, as they were in those days, you know, the bomb and what not, you know. You, you never knew when they were called out on a QRA, does your husband, still do, is he still in the air force?
CH: No, it’s my son.
AB: Pardon?
CH: My son.
AB: Oh son. So, he would still do QRAs, rushed out in the middle of the night.
PB: Yes, that’s right.
AB: A lot of funny stories about QRAs and being called out.
PB: We used to wait for the call, ‘Attention, attention, this is the bomber controller for Waddington QRA only, readiness zero two is now in force’, and jumped in the car and straight out to the aeroplane and fire it up and get ready. That’s what they used to do [pause].
AB: It’s alright, that’s just a little passage, from the book. They arrived at the door in their flying kit having been brought home by bus because they were all, you know, a bit shaken.
PB: The MO thought we were all shook up, he said 'Go home', yes, I said 'I’m not shook up'.
AB: And we didn’t care less anyway we were, we were too busy with our sherry [laughs].
PB: Yes.
[laughter]
PB: Yes, QRA was a bit of, bit of a, bit of a bind but eh — [interrupted].
AB: And your son will know all about that if he, do they still do QRAs?
PB: Yes, well I suppose they do really eh, sleep in your kit and er, be ready to go eh, at a moment’s notice and it was eh, sort of broken sleep, that sort of thing, mind you at the same time, the food in the aircrew feeder was excellent eh, 'cause we had our own little restaurant, yes, but , [coughs] and of course, you could probably go a couple of nights without being called at all, and then suddenly, you know ‘Attention, attention, this is the bomber controller,’ and eh, and off you’d go, but, but you took your turn, you weren’t on it all the time [pause].
AB: Can I speak [whispered]. 'Cause that’s how a lot of the wives couldn’t cope because they never knew when they were called out on QRA, where they were going and what they were going to do. They could have been called to Russia and when they've passed a certain boundary time, place, they can’t turn round and come home again, they have to keep going, and a lot of the wives, lot of the wives could not cope with this, not knowing when their husbands went out on a QRA call, whether they were coming home or not.
PB: Yes.
AB: Especially the ones who were called out on the, the last, the Falkland do.
PB: Yes.
AB: They actually all wrote letters to their wives because once they got out they wouldn't have been able to turn round and come back.
PB: I think the really serious one was the missile crisis with Russia, you know, with the ships eh, going to Cuba, and J F Kennedy was the really serious one [pause]. That’s where — where we were on full alert, ready, ready to go, actually. Not that anyone wants to 'cause you know well that, there'd be nothing to come back to, if it ever happens, that’s why we want to stop these missiles spreading, it’s very difficult to do but we must try our best.
[laughter]
CH: I shall end that there. Thank you very, very, much Phil.
PB: Yes [laughs].
CH: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Philip Batty
Description
An account of the resource
Philip Batty grew up in Walsall. He discusses the death of his older brother Dennis, a wireless operator with 226 Squadron, early in the Second World War. Philip volunteered for aircrew. After training, he was posted to 50 Squadron at RAF Sturgate as a wireless operator/ air gunner in May 1945. He was involved in Operation Dodge and United Nations peacekeeping in the Congo. He worked in Rhodesia and Cyprus and survived crash landings in a Vulcan and an Anson. He reminiscences about work colleagues and tells some humorous stories relating to his career in the Royal Air Force, which spanned 40 years.
Creator
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Cathie Hewitt
Date
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2016-10-14
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Janet McGreevy
Format
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01:02:22 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABattyPH161014
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Zimbabwe
Cyprus
Cuba
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1945-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
226 Squadron
50 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
B-29
Battle
Blenheim
bombing
crash
Distinguished Flying Medal
Initial Training Wing
killed in action
Lancaster
Lincoln
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridlington
RAF Coningsby
RAF Madley
RAF Sturgate
RAF Wattisham
RAF Wyton
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1200/11773/PWilkinsNE1704.2.jpg
0b82f31961100616000f1a53909d6996
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1200/11773/AWilkinsNE170922.1.mp3
f352a60c5f4b1c6382ed898fe3ada8ca
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wilkins, Norman Edward
N E Wilkins
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. An oral history interview with Wing Commander Norman Wilkins (1925 - 2018, 1807646, 164478 Royal Air Force) parts of his log book and photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 7 Squadron Pathfinders.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Norman Wilkins and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wilkins, NE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: So, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre.
NW: Right.
CB: And today I’m interviewing Norman Wilkins. His wife Ann is also present. The interviewer is myself Cathy Brearley and today’s date is Friday the 22nd of September 2017. And the interview is taking place at Norman and Ann’s home near Worthing in West Sussex.
NW: Thank you.
CB: So, thank you very much.
NW: That’s alright.
CB: For giving this interview for us. Thank you.
NW: That’s really accurate.
CB: So, could you just start off by telling me whereabouts you were born and about your early life and where you grew up?
NW: Yes. I was born in a place called West Norwood which is what? South London really. Yeah. South west or south east. I can’t remember which. And I was such a weakling that the doctor said to my family and let, because it was the days of the big smogs and things, ‘Unless you get this boy out of London he isn’t going to make old bones.’ So, my father who worked for the railway got a job down in — we moved to Redhill in Surrey. And that’s, I suppose that’s when I joined the ATC. A little bit later. And that’s how it rolled on into the Air Force. I was in the ATC a long time. And we’re still involved with the ATC in that when we lived in Kent, the Kent Wing Commander had got such a huge parish that he used to give me about a third of his inspections to do. Which we eagerly did. Which was rather lovely. But now we’re members. We’ve got a certificate that says I’m a member of 176 Brighton and Hove Squadron.
CB: So, how old were you when war broke out?
NW: I must have been fifteen would I? Wait a minute. Which was about 1940. I was born in 1925 so I must have been fourteen then. Take. Yes. Fourteen. And I went to Reigate Grammar School having passed the necessary exams which you had to in those days. And the Battle of Britain was on then. One, a German bomber came down across the playground as you’d call it. And the gunners shot all the windows out in the school [laughs] but we were all outside so nobody was hurt. And fortunately he crashed just down the road. So I set off with my father’s 410 shotgun to join the savages that were going to hold the crew up [laughs] but Corporal Jones and Co got there first. So, that’s alright I remember about that bit. Then I grew up there completely. Joined, joined what was the first thing was the Air Defence Cadet Corps you’d have heard off which was set up, worthy people who believed that where the Air Force was the way ahead. So, Air Defence Cadet Corps turned into ATC which, which took me into the University Air Squadron at Oxford. I was in New College Oxford in a scheme that if you joined the air training — sorry, if you joined the University Air Squadron your fees were paid for by the RAF. Which was a very good scheme and that’s when I remember there was a hideous Flight Sergeant used to bully us in the, in the, when I was in the UAS. Blow me down about two years later he popped up again in Cambridge [laughs] when I was still at the Initial Training Schools which, you’ll, you’ll know about the RAF training system then as well as or probably better than everybody else. You’ve heard about it so many times. When, then we all took off didn’t we? To Heaton Park, Manchester. And I was there for, for some time. But again having opted for Navigator Training I met, I made friends, which is neither here nor there. I made friends with a chap called Eddie Cullen. Now, there was, he was a son of a big grocer’s then in those days called Cullen and Sons. Didn’t matter then but it mattered later. In the middle of the night we marched off. Got into a train for Canada. All the blinds were pulled down so you couldn’t look out and see where you were going. Because I always remember as we, it was all supposed to be terribly secret but as we marched out of the camp there were a bunch of people’s girlfriends there saying, have a, ‘Goodbye. Have a good time in Canada.’ [laughs] So much for security. And when we were allowed to put the blinds up in the morning what were we going to get into? Queen Elizabeth the First. All grey paint painted. So, that’s how I went over to Canada. In the Elizabeth the First. Which, as you know went unescorted because she was faster than the Destroyers that would have escorted us. So it was only four and a half days. Now, in, we were in the Reception Centre in Canada, Eddie Cullen played, paid off because there were people there who’d been hanging about a long time to get on with their training. Eddie Cullen immediately recommended and met one of the Corporals. Because Corporals ran the training system as you know. They ran the air training system really. He met, realised that he’d been at school with this Corporal so we agreed, Eddie and I, go, he’d go and see him and find out whether we could go to London, Ontario — London, Ontario which sounded an attractive spot. Eddie came back and said, ‘Uh huh got to wait three months to do that. But Portage le Prairie next week.’ Right. That was it. Portage le Prairie please. And off we went. That, then the next phase of course was right across Canada in a train. Through the next, through the — what was it called? Lake of the Woods which was a beautiful area. Until we emerged at Winnipeg where the bands were playing. Where they were playing. And up we carried on to Portage le Prairie where there actually weren’t platforms. You got down from the train onto the ground. [laughs] Which didn’t matter because the trucks were there to take us to the airport which until very recently was still, still doing Navigator training for the Canadian Air Force. And we were there however long it was. We were there for the winter course because I remember being in these Ansons you opened a step up, stood on it, opened a flap in the roof and did your astro through that. Temperature would go down to minus fifty of course on the Canadian prairies. And the other thing was you were working hard to make a good plot to get back home but the Canadian pilots who were all civilian bush pilots that had been recruited, you heard that as well, they, they made their own arrangements. So thinking they were helping you but in fact they were doing the very opposite. But it didn’t matter. They flew the radio ranges that they’d always flown. And now that must have been six months through the winter of 1942/43. And then at the end of the course all the others went away to go on the OTU HCU trip and I thought to myself what have I done wrong? Waved them all goodbye. Of course what had happened in fact because I was number one on the course that automatically nominated me for the Pathfinder Training Unit. And so eventually I went but of course I went to squadron very quickly. They had to plough their way through OTUs and HCUs and fly in Manchesters and other horrible things. [laughs] And that really gets me completely to 7 Squadron where on the day I had been there a couple of days and my skipper who — the crew couldn’t operate because their previous radar man had failed. So, they couldn’t fly because they hadn’t got seven people. He was told, ‘Come to the adjutants office again. We’ve got a new radar man for you.’ Well, I was still, still nineteen wasn’t I? Yes. Yes. And I saw, George’s face fell as he thought, ‘Oh my God. What will I do with this little bog rat?’ [laughs] And he walked with me into the crew room where the crews were sitting on benches either side and as we walked past you saw the look of pleasure on their face as they realised I wasn’t for them [laughs]
CB: Whereabouts was this that that happened?
NW: That happened at Oakington itself. Yes. Yes. Because I’d been posted to Oakington from Warboys and that bit happened. That’s when we crewed up. And I met people like, with a very good English name of [pause] I’ve forgotten it. Something like [unclear] Emmanuel Azzaro, who was a Brighton taxi driver. Or had been.
CB: Really?
NW: He was the rear gunner.
CB: And who was the pilot?
NW: No. He was the rear gunner.
CB: Who was the pilot? Who were the other people?
NW: Oh, the pilot was George Harvey who had flown as a civil flight for the National Airways of New Zealand before the war.
CB: And who were the other crew members?
NW: Well, the other member was my, well he had to be a friend because we sat thigh to thigh like that. Bill Parnham, who I don’t know what he did before that. The rear, upper gunner became a policeman just after the war. I don’t know what he did before then unless he was a police cadet. That’s right.
CB: What was his name?
[pause]
NW: Pass. I can’t get it.
CB: No.
NW: Oh. Victor Emmanuel Azzaro. That was it. Victor Emmanuel Azzaro was the rear gunner. The Brighton. Now, because once Azzaro said, ‘You lot ought to come down and see Brighton. It’s a wonderful place.’ So, we all trooped off on a train and came down and put up. We were put up at, in Victor Emmanuel Azzaro’s house. I remember the disgusting business because they had one of these steel shelters. The Anderson shelters were in the garden if you remember. The other one’s were table top ones. Azzaro’s family were tipped out and told to go away somewhere and we, we all took [laughs] over the shelter. And the excuse was we were more valuable to the war effort because we were a bomber crew.
[pause]
AW: [unclear]
CB: Ann’s reminding, Ann’s suggesting reminding you about a story about a wheelbarrow at Brighton.
NW: Oh, yes that was after the war. Yes.
CB: Oh, was it?
NW: That was after the war. Yes.
CB: Ok. Well we can come back to that if you like then.
NW: I was flying with a different man but eventually because I’d become a senior radar person and of course so we only went when the weather was C R A P. We rarely went in good weather. But I can remember towards the end of the bomber offensive we began to go on a few daylights. And on one particular daylight the gunners got very excited because we were going to be attacked by this ME163. A little baby jet. And why they were excited was they couldn’t move the turrets quick enough to catch up with the thing it went so fast. Just a small memo. Other than that I remember no other incidents really. Oh. We went into Cologne but we had P51 Mustangs of the US Air Force escorting us. Right above our heads. But we realised during these daylights how many aircraft and crews had been lost with collisions or accidents because we would be, we were straying, staying on this day on the bomb run and all of a sudden bombs started coming down all around us. There was a guy just above dropping his bomb load. Well, that was because of course the, everybody set their pressure setting but because they would be cheapo they weren’t all exactly the same. Or they should have been but they weren’t. They all got the same setting but they only needed to be a few feet different to be up there or over there and knock a wing off.
CB: Did you do any astro navigation?
NW: Bill insisted we, we did once. But by then another aid called LORRAINE, LORAN had come in. And because we were in Pathfinder f off everything that was brand new in navigation was fitted to our aircraft. But we didn’t do, we didn’t do much with that because Bill would be plotting right there. I’m sitting right here. And we agreed we’d do fix. We’d fix the aircraft six minutes, four minutes and he’d give me a nudge and of course we got a perfect radar pictures. You could see, you’ve seen many of them. So, that was the best way to navigate the aircraft and it finished beautifully in the bomb run. I did lots of astro but that was on Vulcans.
CB: That was later.
NW: Ah.
CB: Yeah.
NW: By then, as I was pretty senior I was picked out to fly with some other crews who hadn’t got a radar man. And one I flew with was a man Phillip P Mather. M A T H E R. He was a big drinking man which doesn’t really matter but his mother lived in that lovely square.
AW: Brunswick.
NW: Brunswick Square. And so, the war was finished. I had flown with Mather on two sorties or one. I can’t remember which. So, I knew him pretty well. And he said, ‘You need to come down and see Brighton.’ So, off we went down to Brighton. And one day we all marched out with the intention of having a pint in every pub in this street. Western Road. Yes. When we, what was annoying about PP Mather was he got all the girls. Didn’t matter how aged they were. Whether they were sixteen to sixty five he got the lot. No one else got a look in because he looked like Ivor Novello and was often mistaken for him. However, when we, when we, when it was decided it was time to go back — oh yes I remember. His mother was an agony aunt for one of the magazines, and Phil, we were all a bit frightened of her so when Phil said, ‘Right. We should go home,’ off we went. And we all were traipsing along and we came, we’d seen the same corner where there was a shop Mence Smiths Do you remember Mence Smiths. No.
CB: No.
NW: Outside was a gleaming brand new wheelbarrow. That was ours straightaway. I climbed in it. Phil picked up the handles and off we went pursued by an employee of Mense Smiths in his warehouse coat. I think they were called khaki coat. He escorted us with the strict instructions to get the wheelbarrow back. But just at the same time a policeman was marching along with us. And we looked and said — he was wearing aircrew ribbons, and he said, ‘Don’t worry, gentlemen. I will navigate through the traffic with you.’ So off we went with our wheelbarrow. Pushed it all back. He held up the traffic, because we were one side and Brunswick Square was the other, while we crossed, handed it back to the man in the warehouse coat and we scuttled in to his mother’s flat. Having pushed this wheelbarrow about a mile I suppose. We’ve been to that corner since. Or identified it since.
AW: One and a half.
NW: There aren’t any wheelbarrows there now.
AW: [unclear] has gone.
NW: Mense Smiths had been gobbled up into something else. Yeah. Just a silly incident but that of course was just after the war. Philip Mather disappeared into the blue. I’d imagine if I looked in the Brighton directory I’d find him. But I’ve no intention of doing so because he’s a dangerous man [laughs]
CB: So, could you explain a little bit about how the radar navigation system actually worked?
NW: Yes. Yes. Now, that was the [unclear] the war expired, we’ll, we’ll jump a bit if that’s alright with you. The war expired and I got a permanent commission to stay in the Air Force and I got posted to what was then the Air Ministry. Well, while I was there in a very interesting intelligence job the cry went in, out in things called AMOs — Air Ministry Orders saying virtually, ‘Where have all the radar navigators had gone? If anybody knows where they are try — ’ Winco Buggins — I can’t think of his name of course because it didn’t matter, ‘On this number.’ So, I pounced on the phone. Got this lovely fellow on the phone and I said, ‘Hello sir, I’m here.’ ‘Right,’ he said, ‘Well, you’re about to be somewhere else. We’re starting a radar course for the V Force at Lindholme and you’ll be on number one course. So, I found myself on number one course. Myself, and twelve bright shiny pilot officers. Flying officers who were all from the Canberras force and whereas my radar training to get on the Pathfinder Force had been three weeks this, they decided the training for the V force would be more than a year. So we were at Lindholme for more than a year. And then I went to Hemswell. Nothing to do with the V force. I finished up commanding this Lincoln squadron which was doing the radar training for the V Force. So it was still the same thing. When I’d finished that —
CB: That was at Hemswell.
NW: That was at —
CB: RAF Hemswell.
NW: it came and I’d found my Jaguar. Oh yes. Outside the officer’s mess was this. You wouldn’t have remembered them because you’re too young. Jaguars in those days used to had P100 headlights. Huge. Huge things. This — and I kept eyeing this and I borrowed somebody’s metal polish in the middle of the night and went out and worked on these lights and found that the chrome was perfectly sound. Eventually I said to the mess manager, ‘Who owns that Jaguar out there?’ He said, ‘Oh, that’s the chap,’ and again I wouldn’t remember the name because it wasn’t relevant. He went off to Suez to fight the Suez war. I said, ‘Any chance you’d give me his name?’ and, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘Yes. I’ll give you a name. As a matter of fact,’ he said, ‘I’ve got a home address for him.’ So, I wrote to this chap and said, ‘Could we talk on the phone?’ This chap rang me in the officer’s mess at Hemswell and said [pause] must have been Hemswell. Yes. He said, ‘Ah,’ he said, ‘Why are you ringing me?’ I said, ‘Because I’d like to have your Jaguar.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘That old wreck,’ he said, ‘I couldn’t be bothered to pick it up because while I was away Aunt Fanny died and left me a small fortune so I’m in to new cars now,’ he said. ‘But I have got a scrap man from Lincoln coming out for it and he’s going to give me forty pounds for it.’ So, I said, ‘Right. Now, if I sent you a cheque for forty five pounds you’d send me the keys and the logbook.’ ‘I’d be happy to do that,’ he said. So, that’s what happened. It was my Jaguar. But what I hadn’t thought of was who could tow to start a two ton Jaguar. Now, by sheer fluke I was with, flying with a Squadron Leader Skeane another huge tall man who’d got an old American Packard six which was capable of pulling this thing. So, came the day when I’d been posted to Finningley and been over there and picked my married quarter when squadron, we got hold of a massive rope. I don’t know. Must have got it from a sports field or something. It was the sort of thing that was being used for the tug of war. We’d attached it to this. Away we went. Let the clutch out. Bang. She started. And all I could do then was flash the lights at Don Skeane to stop. Drove back to Finningley and used it for about two and a half years.
CB: Is that how long you were at RAF Finningley?
NW: I was at RAF Finningley.
CB: Yeah.
NW: Yes.
CB: And which aircraft were you in when you were there?
NW: Sorry?
CB: Which aircraft were you flying in while you were at — ?
NW: Vulcans
CB: Oh right. Yeah.
NW: 101 Squadron.
CB: Yeah.
NW: Was a Vulcan squadron.
CB: And you flew in Lancasters and Ansons during the war.
NW: Well, yes. Ansons in Canada.
CB: Yeah.
NW: Old ones. Built over there. And when I got back straight into, at the Pathfinder Training Unit straight into Lancaster.
CB: So, what was it like flying in a Lancaster?
NW: Oh. Chummy because we were sitting like this. Bill there. Me here. Just the other side but I couldn’t see him. Oh, I must say and you must have heard this many times that people started talking about fear. Well, we didn’t have any fear because we were behind black-out curtains. So I couldn’t even see the flight engineer and the pilot because they were behind blackout. But then we were so busy fix fix fix fix fix. Getting it right. Until we were on the bomb run. Then it was only then when it was that either the markers gone and the bombs have gone did we pull the blackout curtains back. Stand up and have a look at what was going on, and what had we done? And headed back for home very smartly. I don’t know whether that’s of any value or not.
CB: No. It’s interesting.
NW: But, oh there was one serious incident when I was talking to you about accidents. When one time over Germany there was a wacking great bumph. The whole aircraft started rocking and when we’d all recovered ourselves and decided that our trousers were still clean, George said to me, ‘Norman. What do you reckon?’ ‘I’ve got no radar,’ I said, ‘It must have been something to do with the radar. I’m going to put an oxygen bottle on and go back and see if I can find what damage was done.’ Well, the radar, all we’d got back there was a big hole. The radar had been, had collided with something and had gone. [pause] During debriefings we heard that a Halifax had lost a tail and had landed successfully. So, two things were put together. The Halifax had taken our radio off and our radio had taken his, one of his fins off. That was the most, that was the worst feeling that we had. Most of the time we never saw flak or anything like that because we were behind our black out curtains. But that wasn’t very good and I’ve got a picture of that somewhere but I don’t suppose that was worth looking for. That was the biggest incident that we had was loading. We couldn’t of course carry out an attack that day. We turned very smartly and headed for home. Oh, and there was an interesting — [laughs] On another incident we were on the way home and Bill Parnham said to me, ‘Norman, have you ever heard of,’ — where’s the market? ‘Ford?’ I said, ‘No. Of course I’ve never heard of Ford.’ He said, ‘Well, we’re not to go to Oakington. 8 Group aircraft have been diverted to Ford.’ So, we said, ‘Where the devil’s that?’ Well, Brill got out every map he’d got and eventually we found Ford and discovered it was a Naval Air Station up the road from us here really. Now it’s a big market at the weekends. But we found Ford and arrived there and we were, we were something like a top of a huge, because all Pathfinder aircraft based at the Pathfinder bases when the fog had appeared, the Lincolnshire fog all diverted to Ford. Not hundreds. I suppose about fifteen. And George eventually said, and he’d been we’d gradually worked our way down the stack. George decided he’d had enough of that and said, called out, ‘My fuel gauge is getting very low. Low. I need an immediate approach and landing.’ So, that’s what we did to be greeted by some flying officer who was in charge of Ford who said, ‘I’ve got accommodation for you gentlemen. And I’ve got supper for you but I have to tell you it’s only baked beans.’ Oh yeah. Very interesting. So, we slept on, this is where the gunners came good because they had got, many of them, the old fashioned leather fur lined jackets. The rest of us of course had what I would call ordinary thin flying overalls on. The point being we slept on, on the springs of beds because what the pilot officer hadn’t told us was yes he’d got beds but he hadn’t got any mattresses. So, the next morning everybody rose, had their breakfast. Baked beans again. And we discovered that we had three squadron commanders with us from the, from the, from the 8 Group. And the three squadron commanders said, ‘Can we get out of here?’ ‘No. You can’t,’ said the flying officer, ‘We were instructed that you should stay here.’ And I remember we looked. There were Lancasters parked in odd positions all over the airfield because of course nobody could see in the dark. Fortunately nobody had run into another one. They were all over the place. The squadron commander suddenly said, ‘Where’s the nearest pub?’ and the chap said, well it’s Little Dogsbody or somewhere where it was. About seven or eight miles away. So the squadron, the squadron said to him, ‘Right. Firstly, preferably you must know his number in the officer’s mess. Ring him up and tell him a lot of people are coming to drink his beer ration.’ Because beer was rationed as you know. And he said, ‘Secondly, transport please.’ So, a couple of three tonners were appeared and we all scrambled into it and off we went to the pub. And it didn’t take long before his beer ration had gone. And while we were still having a good time, must have been about an hour and a half later the flying officer suddenly appeared and said, ‘Gentlemen, time up,’ he said, ‘Pathfinder bases are clear. You are to immediately return to base.’ So, after another pint, I think or two we went back with the flying officer and his two trucks, scrambled in our Lancasters and went back home again. Just another daft event but we still with our, we still had and it wasn’t the same night so, we must have had a radar that worked. There was one working there. Now, what’s interesting is a friend of Ann’s who was a violinist in either the RPO or the LPO was, who we now are in touch with has got a German friend whose job is to come — is to research bombs. That’s why the bomb load is written in the bottom there. Now, he’s coming over at some time in the very near future because we meet these people about every three to six, three months. He’s coming over. He stays with them at a B&B when he’s over researching at Kew. At the National, is it the National —
AW: Archives.
NW: Archive office. That’s right. Now, he knows the reason I’ve kept that is I’ll get a decent copy of it and he will take it away with him and put it in his research.
CB: And you’re.
NW: So, that’s a bit left over from —
CB: And you’re now president of the 7 Squadron Association.
NW: I’m president of 7 Squadron Association. Yes. Which we shall be going to —
AW: 1983 we formed it.
NW: You’re going to the ATC.
AW: 1983, the 7 Squadron Association was formed.
NW: Right.
CB: And do you have an annual — ?
NW: I was the chairman.
AW: Yes.
NW: For over ten years.
AW: Yeah.
NW: And got booted upstairs to take over from an air commodore who was the president. And I’ve been the president now since oh a very long time.
AW: Yeah. And we meet once or twice a year but lots of us are in touch with each other all the time on the phone.
NW: Oh yes.
AW: Visit each other. Or —
NW: That’s good.
AW: Yes.
NW: Oh yes. Oh yes.
AW: Because again it’s it’s like a second family.
NW: It’s like a family, isn’t it?
AW: It’s like a family. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: You haven’t mentioned Operation Manna yet.
NW: Yes.
CB: And I understand you were involved in that.
NW: Well, badly briefed again. We were told that we were going to go to Holland. So, we were going to go this way. Near Rotterdam. Another one was going to go near Amsterdam probably. And as at low level we were to open the bomb doors and load and release bags of food for the starving Dutch. So off we went and as I said we went — well we didn’t climb up ever that day. We stayed low level. Joined a run in to where Pathfinder markers had been lit to by, by good Dutchmen on the ground. And as we went in I suppose it was yes, polder. The side of a polder was filled with medium sized German flak guns and they tracked us as we went across to release our food and likewise our gunners were tracking them as we went by. But we’d got top cover of American Mustangs so the Krauts very sensibly didn’t make anything of it. Years later, but we didn’t know at the time we were told including by a Dutch policeman. He said, but he said, ‘We were starving,’ he said, ‘People were actually falling down in the, in the street, from starvation.’ He said, ‘If it wasn’t you my — I wouldn’t be here.’ This was one of our escorting policemen when we went there on Manna in the 50s.
AW: Yeah. We went there. I can’t remember what year.
CB: Ann is now showing me a collage of photographs. Was this given to Norman?
NW: Yes.
CB: By the Dutch people when you went over on a visit.
NW: Oh, quite incredible. Quite incredible.
CB: Which is a photograph. A series of photographs.
NW: The equivalent of the, of the Home Guard.
CB: A collage of photographs.
NW: He took holiday to escort us everywhere. Everywhere we went we were escorted by these policemen who were dressed in white. White leather. And we met, mostly met schools.
AW: No. We went everywhere and were given the freedom of the cities.
NW: Oh. Freedom of here and the freedom of there. Yeah.
AW: These are made by the grandchildren of the people at the time in what they’d been told from their grandparents that actually happened. And we each had three or four of these placemats.
CB: Well, they’re lovely.
AW: We wrote to the children.
NE: That was very clever certainly.
CB: The children’s drawings.
AW: Yeah.
CB: The grandchildren’s drawings that have been coloured in and laminated for you to use as placemats. A very grateful nation.
AW: Yes.
NW: We had to bend like this so they could get their clipboards to write on.
AW: As we drove in to each town or village —
NW: Oh.
AW: In the coaches the townspeople or the village people were fighting each other to get on the coaches to hug the men that had brought them food.
NW: That was a very emotional business that.
AW: And the whole week.
NW: Was like that.
AW: We were escorted by what we would call the Territorial Army.
NW: Yeah.
AW: As help. They had taken one week’s holiday out of their ordinary pay and jobs to escort us. And the police escorted us. Two coaches. The whole time. Wherever we went and we went to schools, to towns.
NW: Yes. Villages.
AW: To villages. To the racecourse where you dropped food.
NW: Racecourse.
AW: And a Lancaster came over.
NW: That’s right. A Lancaster came over.
AW: And dropped bread while we were there.
NW: And did a dummy food drop on the racecourse.
AW: Yeah. Very moving. It was an incredibly moving week.
NW: Yeah. It was indeed.
AW: None of us stopped crying the whole time because we couldn’t believe.
NW: The children.
AW: Because these young men who flew in the Lancasters didn’t actually know that people were dropping dead in the street at the time.
NW: No. We didn’t know that.
AW: You didn’t know that, did you?
NW: It was the policeman. I went to speak to him in his white leathers and I said, ‘Thank you very much for escorting us.’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘Thank you for being here. If it wasn’t for you I wouldn’t be here.’ I said, ‘Why is that then?’ He said, ‘Well, you did, my parents tell me that people were dropping dead in the street and if you hadn’t come and did the food drops it would have been in a very very serious situation and I wouldn’t be here.’ But they were all, well they were all like. Weeping.
AW: Everywhere we went, as you can see there were so many things that happened.
CB: There was a singer.
AW: That week. Oh, we had a singing.
CB: A band.
AW: Bands. We had a complete day with old vehicles and their vintage things. The Americans came because they called it Chowhound. So, there were a few Americans there.
NW: Yes.
AW: But I think the most moving man was the Polish man who came with his daughter from Poland and the whole week he never spoke to anybody or reacted to anything at all that was happening. And on the Friday night the hotel who were involved also with the Manna operation gave us Freedom of the City of Rotterdam and also at any time if we wished to go back to the hotel we stayed there free of charge.
CB: Wow.
AW: And there was a small speech by one man and then the whole company were asked if they wanted to speak. And Norman stood up and spoke on behalf of 7 Squadron and then the Polish man said he would like to speak. And in perfect English —
NW: Yeah.
AW: He brought the whole room —
NW: To tears.
AW: Crying. To tears again.
NW: Incredible.
AW: And you thought he hadn’t taken any of it on board but he had and it was so emotional. That was the end of our week there. These things don’t happen now.
CB: No. It’s wonderful that they have done and you’ve been.
AW: Yeah.
NW: Yes. It was incredible.
CB: How many times did you go over?
AW: We went —
CB: With the with food. How many trips did you make with the food?
NW: I imagine, I’ll have to go and get my logbook.
CB: I know you’ve got your logbook. I’ll just pause the tape a moment.
NW: I went.
CB: Just pause it a minute.
[recording paused]
NW: 1970 I went to six of them. Headquarters, Bomber Command. As it still was. And we went over as the British judges in the American. So, I flew in B52s then. It was only a few sorties but —
CB: And that’s when you asked for the four Vulcans to come in in formation.
NW: No. They — that was 1977. That was ’69. Can you remember, well you can see the States here. Here is 1969. The lilac city of Spokane in Washington State. Down here is Orlando in Florida. Well, there couldn’t be a bigger trip between the two. Not that that was relevant at the time to having done the, we had our own Americans over to fly with us in the competition where we were based in Orlando. Which was a nice holiday for the lads. And to make sure a court was able to get plenty of attention because you’ve worked out I’m such a modest person I took my own piper with me from Waddington. He was an engine mechanic but he, he was a Scotsman who played in a pipe band. So he made the, all the television rounds in Florida of course. And all the meetings, everybody’s Caledonia associate. If you saw him he couldn’t stand up. He was all like [laughs] he had such a great trip.
CB: Do you remember his name?
AW: So great you had to send him home.
NW: No. I can’t. No. No I can’t. No. I had two adjutants I sent home. Yes.
AW: Getting drunk.
NW: One of them. Yeah. We hadn’t managed get to that business of the wing commanders in the UK. Do we? Oh dear.
AW: No.
NW: No. Well, except to say because you’ll wonder why I’ve closed up on it. This guy thought the work thought the world was an enormous place. And to get from Spokane back to the UK when the competition was over would mean racing across America on a stagecoach. That would take weeks and weeks. Then you’d be on the sailing schooner coming across the Atlantic. And eventually months later you’d arrive in the UK. Now, that wouldn’t have mattered but unfortunately he’d said to a certain young lady there, ‘You must come and see me when I’m in, when I’m at home.’
AW: She did.
NW: In 1970 the corporal on duty at Scampton had a young lady came up, knocked on the door said, ‘Now, corporal can you tell me where wing commander,’ umpty ump, ‘Lives?’ ‘Yes madam,’ he said. ‘Why?’ She said, ‘Well, I want to call on him.’ So Corporal locked up the guard room and took the young lady to the Wing Commander’s house. Knocked on the door. Who answered it?
AW: His wife.
NW: The Wing Commander’s wife who was in a wheelchair. A worse situation I think there could possibly be. So, I was building up the squadron. Waddington then. This gentleman rang me and said, ‘Norman, I’m in terrible trouble.’ Gave me an outline of what had happened. He said, ‘You must have some young men in your lot now,’ he said. ‘Could you spare one of them to entertain this lady for about a week?’ he said, ‘Take, take her out here. Take her out there.’ We’ll find out everything else we can find. Well, I had, the Air Ministry had given me a light, young baby Lightning pilot. He was, I think he was twenty one but he was held up in training because the Lightnings were as usual with British aircraft instruction were way behind. So, the Ministry man said, ‘Would you mind having this?’ ‘Yeah,’ I said, ‘Lovely. I can do with an adjutant.’ So, this, the guy at Scampton said, ‘Yes,’ he said. ‘Right. See what you can do and you can tell him I’ll pay his expenses.’
AW: To give her away.
NW: So, I called this chap in. He was perfect for the job because he had a two seater sports car. And I said, ‘You’d better sit down. I’m going to tell you some very good news. Well, it could be if you agree to do it.’ I said, ‘There’s a nice good looking young lady staying at Scampton and certain people, including me would like you to entertain her for the next seven or ten days.’ I said, ‘All you’ve got to do is to take her out to a good typically English pub. Take her into Lincoln and see this, that and the everything else.’ Wonderful. The chap said, well he said, ‘Yeah but I’m not terribly well paid sir.’ I said, ‘This is the good bit. The wing commander will pay.’ ‘My God,’ he said. Shot off like a rocket then. [laughs] And they rampaged around Lincolnshire. Pulling down direction boards and doing all the stupid things that students normally do. But it did get her out of the way.
AW: It wasn’t so much away when you took the bombing competitions over to the US the guys getting drunk. It was the fact that they were on television being interviewed drunk. And that didn’t look very good.
CB: Not so good.
AW: For us. In the light of — so that’s why he had to send some of them back home.
NW: Well, the girl was —
AW: Don’t worry darling don’t go into that one.
NW: I’m not going to go —
AW: Because it’s so long, you know.
NW: No.
[recording paused]
CB: Well, thank you ever so much both of you. I can’t think of any other particular questions to ask you. Is there anything else —
NW: Lovely to see you. As I told you —
CB: That you can think of.
NW: You’re absolutely right for the job.
CB: Thank you ever so much and thank you so much for your time. And thank you Norman for recounting your memories for us of such interesting times. Thank you.
NW: Sorry some of them have been way out. I agree.
CB: No. It’s been absolutely fantastic. Very very interesting to listen.
NW: You’ve had to —
AW: More way out than that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Norman Edward Wilkins
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cathy Brearley
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWilkinsNE170922, PWilkinsNE1704
Format
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01:04:16 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Norman Wilkins was born in West Norwood. At the age of fourteen he joined the Air Training Corps and became a member of Brighton and Hove Air Cadets 176 Squadron. He then joined the University Air Squadron at Oxford, with fees being paid by the Royal Air Force. In 1942-1943 he was sent to Winnipeg for navigation training. At the end of the course he was nominated for the Pathfinder Training Unit at RAF Oakington. Norman did astro navigation on one occasion. He also did a course on the radar navigation system and was posted to RAF Finningley for about two years and a half. Norman flew in Lancasters and was also involved in Operation Manna. He then became president of the 7 Squadron Association which meets once or twice a year.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Sussex
England--Brighton
Canada
Manitoba--Winnipeg
Manitoba
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Steph Jackson
7 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Gee
Lancaster
Lincoln
Me 163
mid-air collision
navigator
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Pathfinders
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Oakington
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/128/1278/AAbbottsC151015.2.mp3
cc3222384b5959170d324f9b72e8d83f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Abbotts, Cyril
C Abbotts
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. The collection consists of one oral history interview and one service and release book related to Warrant Officer Cyril Abbots (b. 1924, 1583753 Royal Air Force). Cyril Abbotts volunteered for the Royal Air Force and trained as a pilot in Canada. On his return to Great Britain he flew operations as a flight engineer with 57 Squadron from RAF East Kirkby in 1945 and later converted from Lancasters to Lincolns. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Cyril Abbot and catalogued by IBCC staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-15
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Abbots, C
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: So today I’m with Cyril Abbott and we are at Malvern in Worcestershire and it is the 15th of October 2015 and we’re just going to talk about his time in the RAF. Cyril, could you start off by talking please about your, family early, your earliest times you recollect?
CA: I was born in 1924 in a place called Princes’ End, Tipton. I lived with father and mother, with my grandparents. My mother was one of a large family, unfortunately she died when I was six and for the next two years we were looked after by my Grandma until Dad remarried. My mother and father were, had a house built in a village Coseley, which was about two miles away but we never moved there because of my Mum’s death. But having remarried we moved as a family, mother, or I should say step-mother, and father and my sister Doris who was four years older than myself. And we moved to a house in Bradleys Lane Coseley. I went to junior schools in Princes End, Tipton and at the age of eleven I passed scholarship and entered Dudley Grammar School where I was educated for the next five, six years. I left school in ‘39 and went out to work with W and T Avery at Smethwick as a engineering apprentice. I didn’t like work so at the first opportunity I volunteered for the Air Force, for aircrew, and having had all the two days of tests at Digbeth, Birmingham, I was accepted as a recruit and sent home and told to wait until I heard from the RAF. I was a bit of a nuisance to my father and mother because every day I used to come home from work and say ‘Has the letter arrived?’ and nothing had appeared and I really caused a bit of grief. But eventually the letter arrived ordering me to report to ACRC at Lords’ Cricket Ground, London. I travelled to, down to London with a fellow from the village who was also joining up, I think it was the first time we’d ever been away from home by ourselves in the whole of our lives but we arrived at Lords’ and the cricket ground was full of recruits, you couldn’t see a blade of grass basically. But they formed us up in groups of about forty and marched us off to Seymour Hall baths where they told us to strip off and swim a hundred yards. This rather shook us I believe ‘cause having to swim without a costume, but we did this and those who could swim the hundred yards were pushed to one side of the bath, and those who couldn’t swim went to the other side. We found out later that the non-swimmers were sent off to RAF Cosford to learn to swim, if I’d have known that I would have done the same [laughs] because Cosford was within about twenty miles of home. But still, we, we were billeted in flats around St John’s Wood, waiting for postings to ITW. Eventually I was posted to 8 Wing ITW at Newquay, Cornwall where I spent the next three to four months school work. In actual fact I can remember the flight commander was a Flight Lieutenant Paine, he was an ex solicitor and the Squadron Leader I think was a man named Fabian, who was a English international footballer amateur. But, and the two PTIs was Corporal White and Corporal Beasley, one was a Londoner, a real Cockney, and they used to take us out on cross country runs. Because one day I, I decided I didn’t want to go, so we had to get changed and set off and I drifted to the back and at the nearest public toilets I disappeared into it, little realising that Corporal White was running right at the back and he caught me [laughs] and I was taken in front of the squadron commander and given three days CB, confined to barracks, but at the end of the, I think it was about twelve weeks of school work were finished and we were waiting then to, for postings and I eventually was posted to RAF Sywell for familiarisation, twelve hours in a Tiger Moth. Again, I remember the instructor was a Flight Lieutenant Bush, I think he could have owned the flying school which had been taken over by the RAF, but we did, we did about ten to twelve hours flying around in Tiger Moths to see if whether we were compatible with flying and then at the end we were posted to Heaton Park, Manchester which was a receiving centre for people waiting basically to go overseas. I mean there were literally hundreds of UT aircrew there and we used to have to attend in the morning when they would read out lists of people with the postings and you had to answer in a certain manner to signify that you’d understood the shouted instructions. Initially I’d received a posting to South Africa, Rhodesia for flying training and we went up to Blackpool to receive the inoculations required, and having received these inoculations we were sent back to Heaton Park where we found out that we weren’t going to South Africa after all. I was sent to Canada and we, we sailed from the River Clyde, Greenock, or something similar on the Queen Elizabeth, the original Queen Elizabeth one, and I think it was about three days and four nights journey which I didn’t like, I don’t, I’m not a, I don’t like sailing, I don’t like water and it was a welcome sight to go through the harbour bar at New York to get inside the docks because as we went through the bar and they closed it the ship lit up because we’d sailed in darkness over, through the Atlantic, and as soon as we entered the, the New York dock area all the lights came on the ship. I mean New York was lit up as you see it on the films, I mean we hadn’t seen lights for three years. Eventually we, we docked in Pier 91 next to the burnt-out Normandy which had been, it had gone on fire and had capsized in the dock next to us, and it was still there. But eventually we were taken off the boat and we went under the river to New Jersey to get a train to go up to Monkton, RAF Monkton in Canada. We had to pass through the customs between America and Canada, and we stopped on the American side and one or two of us shot off because we were near to a small town and got a glass of beer, and we’d got to drink this very quickly and we didn’t realise the American beer was practically frosty, it was very, very cold. But we, eventually we arrived in Monkton, and we were there for maybe a week or so before we were sent west to the flying schools and I finished up at 32 EFTS, RAF Bowden in Alberta, I mean we could see the Rockies on the horizon, as we drove from the station, Innisfail was the station, why I know that is because I was reading a book by an ex Worcestershire cricketer, Cheston, who had trained there as well, and I picked up the name Innisfail I’d forgotten, but as we drove up from the station to the aerodrome all the training planes were lined up with their tails towards us and we all thought God, we’re all going to be fighter pilots, they looked like fighter ‘planes ‘cause they were all Fairchild Cornell which was a low wing plane. We were there for a period of time, I think we got in about seventy or eighty hours, and I soloed quite quickly after about five hours and during the training I realised that I would never become a fighter pilot because I didn’t like aerobatics. I always remember being sent up to practice spins and to do this you climbed to about three or four thousand feet and then spun down, and pulled out and climbed back and did it again. But every time I went to do it I’d get practically to the point of stall, at which point I was supposed to kick in rudder to go right or left and my nerve went so I pushed the nose down and climbed another thousand feet until I finished up at about ten thousand feet before I forced myself to spin. But having done it the first time and realised I could get out of trouble it wasn’t so bad, but aerobatics I just did not like. So I made my mind up then that I would never become a fighter pilot, I’d go for twins or multi engines. Having completed the elementary training we were posted to service flying training and I was posted to a place called RAF Estevan in Saskatchewan it was right on the American border just a few miles on the Canadian side but it was more or less in the middle of the dustpan, everything was covered with dust, there was a wind at all times and it was just blowing this dust and coating everything. The dormitories had got double-glazing with a mesh screen to try to keep this dust out, but they were flying Ansons there for training and we had to have a check to see whether our leg length was sufficient to be able to apply full rudder in the event of an engine failure. Well I didn’t like the station I thought I’m going to do my best to get away from here, so when I came to do my test I put, extending my to get full rudder and I gradually slipped down in the pilots’ seat so that I couldn’t see over the top of the board, dashboard, so that I failed the test. I didn’t realise that I could have been washed out of pilot training but I was posted away from Estevan to RAF Moose Jaw at Saskatchewan to fly Tiger Moths. The Anson hadn’t got a moveable rudder pedal whereas the Oxford had, you could wind them in to suit your leg length. The Oxford had got a bad reputation for killing people. It was a very difficult aeroplane to fly and they said that if you could fly an Oxford you could fly anything. And I took to the Oxford, I soloed after about five hours again and from then on it was just train, train, train until we eventually finished, I think we did something like about a hundred and fifty hours flying, and it came, the wings, the graduation ceremony, and I believe we were presented with our wings by Air Vice-Marshal Billy Bishop who was a Canadian fighter pilot in the First World War. I believe that it was him but we had already sewn wings on our uniforms and stripes on our arms if we were becoming sergeants, but we had to parade without, without wings or stripes on. But then having graduated, we had, we were given a posting back to Halifax, to get the boat back to England. We were allowed, I think, forty eight hours to have a leave in either Quebec or Montreal on the way back. I can’t remember now whether we were in Quebec or Montreal, but we eventually got back to Halifax and boarded the French liner, Louis Pasteur, to come back and it was a terrible journey. Since we were now supposed sergeants capable of looking after ourselves on the ship some of us were posted as assistant gunners on the anti-aircraft guns which were put about ten feet above the boat deck on a little platform with a rail around it to stop you falling off. And we had an Oerlikon cannon to look after. I mean we’d never seen a firearm but we’d got a naval man as the gunner and we were just there to help, But we always said the Louis Pasteur was a flat bottomed boat because it rolled and rocked like nobody’s business and there were literally thousands on the boat, the conditions were terrible, but every morning at about twelve o’clock if I remember rightly, we had a rendezvous with a Coastal Command aircraft so that when it came time we had to close up the guns in case it wasn’t an RAF plane, but bang on the dot it would appear out of the clouds, circle round for about half an hour, and then off it would go and we’d plough on. I mean we were not escorted it was just a, a quick dash across and I must admit I saw more U boats in the sea, that on that journey, than the German’s had got, every wave was a U boat. [laugh] But eventually we arrived at Liverpool, and we disembarked and were shipped to RAF Harrogate, the Majestic Hotel we were billeted in, and there were literally thousands of pilots, bomb aimers and navigators there. We just, we just didn’t know what was going to happen to us. I mean they came round I think twice, once asking for volunteers to change to glider pilot training. I mean those that did, that accepted it, I think most probably went in at Arnhem. But I being frightened, I decided I would stay and get an aeroplane with engines. So I was there for quite some time and eventually I was sent, we had um, because we’d been in Canada, living the life of luxury, they sent us up to Whitley Bay, Newcastle under the Army to have a month toughening up, and everything was done at the double. I was given a rifle and a band to cover my sergeant’s stripes, we used to have to wear these because the instructors were corporals and privates of the commandos and they gave us a real tough time. Route marches of about twelve miles, my feet were sore, but that was completed and we came back to Harrogate. They just didn’t know what to do with us. So we, eventually I ended up at RAF Bridgenorth, under canvas, and we always said we were draining an air commodore’s farm because we were digging ditches all the time and there were, there were Australians, and other Commonwealth aircrew with us and they used to, to show how tough they were, they’d sleep out in the open without a tent, until they got wet once or twice, [laugh] but we were there most probably two or three weeks and back again to Harrogate. And then I went on airfield control at RAF Gamston, just outside Worksop, acting as traffic control watching the Wellingtons, it was an OTU unit, and we were there [indistinct] at night on flare path duty and the control hut flashing greens or reds as required with an Aldis lamp. While I was there, I became friends with one or two of the screened pilots so I managed to get a few hours in on a Wellington. At the end of the, at the end of the time Gamston was closed down and the ‘planes moved to other OTUs so I got a few hours flying with the screen people taking these aeroplanes to the stations. The funniest part was we landed at one, we had a plane which went round all the aerodromes picking up the screened crews to take them back to Gamston, a Wellington, and it was very funny we landed one control, or pulled up at the control tower and shut the engines down waiting for the people to be picked up and out trooped from the Wellington, about eighteen people and the control officer’s jaw dropped when he saw all these people coming out [laugh] but it was quite, we stood, down the Wellington hanging onto the geo, geodetic structure, it was quite funny. From Gamston, I eventually was posted, oh yeah, I think I went back to Harrogate again and there I was volunteered to do an engineers’ course at St Athan down in South Wales. There was no chance of becoming an official pilot because they hadn’t got enough aeroplanes and there was too many people. So we were volunteered to do an engineers’ course at St Athan on the Lancaster systems, which we did about six weeks just to get the fundamentals of the system. And having completed that I was posted to sixteen 54 HCU at RAF Wigsley in Lincolnshire, where I was going to get crewed up with an ex OTU pilot and crew who wanted an Engineer, so we walked in, as engineers we walked into an office where there were pilots sitting around and the first person I saw was a man who’d been on the course immediately in front of me at Moose Jaw, a flying officer, he was a Pilot Officer Coates and we made contact and starting talking, he said ‘Well I’m looking for an engineer’ I said, ‘Well I’m an engineer but I’m also a pilot’ he said ‘Do you want to come and fly with me?’ ‘Yep’, and that’s how I joined Pilot Officer Coates’ crew because we knew each other. We completed a number of hours on the, at the heavy con unit, the conversion unit, and we were posted as a crew to 57 Squadron at East Kirkby.
CB: So when was this exactly?
CA: Well I think it was in either February ’45, because I wasn’t on the squadron long enough to be able to be awarded the Bomber Command Clasp which I thought was a bit em, bit naughty of them, I can come to that later. Well we were introduced to Wing Commander Tomes who was the Squadron Commander and I think Squadron Leader Astall although I’m not sure about that name. And we were more or less sent off to go and do some practice flying which we thought we’d done enough with the heavy con unit but it wasn’t good enough for the squadron. So we did quite a few cross countries and bombing practice at Wainfleet. And one day I was, I think most likely the last one in the engineer’s office and I was about to go for tea, and as I was walking out the engineer officer shouts, ‘Cyril, what are you doing tonight?’ I said ‘I’m going to have a beer why?’ he said ‘No you’re not, you’re flying.’ He said so and so has called in, his engineer’s gone sick, so they want an engineer so you’re flying as a spare bod on Flying Officer Jack Curran, who was an Australian pilot, he was short of an engineer so I was going with him and that night we went to Luetzkendorf which was the first operation, our rear gunner had also been made a spare bod and he went as a rear gunner with another crew. But Jack, Jack Curran had been shot down about two months previously and had got back so he was, he was a bit nervous as a pilot, he gave me a bit of jitters, because once we crossed, if I remember rightly, once we crossed over the Channel and got to the other side he proceeded to weave all the time and it made a heck of a mess of my petrol consumptions. But the thing that I always remember, was having got to the target, was the different colours or shades of red that there are, or were, I’d never seen so many different shades. Of course I mean I didn’t realise what was happening I mean I was, I’d got bags and bags of window which I was pushing [unclear] down the chute like nobody’s business thinking they were saving me but they weren’t they were saving the people coming behind me. But I pushed packets of it down, I even jammed the ‘chute once I had to get a big file from out of my kit, my tool kit and try and clear it and the file went down the ‘chute as well so that if that hit anybody downstairs they would have had a headache. But eventually we got, we came back and as we neared East Kirkby, Jack had called in to ask for landing instructions and we were told to vamoose, scatter, it was either an intruder in the circuit or something but we scattered like nobody’s business heading towards Wales, and on the way, we were told to make for RAF Bruntingthorpe which we eventually reached and Jack landed the Lanc’ alright, we parked it and were taken into a room for a bit of a debrief, given something to eat and then we were taken to beds in the dorms, in the Nissen huts. And I was, I was lying there on the bed, I couldn’t get to sleep, I suppose it was the adrenalin still coursing through the veins, but I was smoking away like nobody’s business, and I woke up the man in the bed next to where I was and he sat up and he saw I was a flight sergeant, he saw my tunic on the bed, so he said ‘What’s happened?’ so I just explained that we’d been diverted there and we were talking, he was a corporal engine fitter and he looked at me and I looked at him quite intently as if we knew each other. So eventually one or other said ‘Were you ever in Canada?’ and I said ‘Yes, you were at Moose Jaw, were you at Moose Jaw?’ ‘Yes’, he’d been an Engine Fitter out on the flights at Moose Jaw and had been posted back to, from Canada and he was working, was working at Bruntingthorpe on the Wellingtons. Well eventually we were given the all clear to go back to East Kirkby and, although it was forbidden, the squadron pilots always shot up the aerodrome having taken off. So we, we took off and joined a queue of people waiting to go down the runway and ignored it which we did. The station commander went mad and by the time we got back to East Kirkby the squadron commander was waiting for us and he proceeded to tear us off a strip. ‘They were OTU pilots being taught to fly safely and you people go down and show them what not to do’ [laugh] still it was Lancaster below zero feet going at about two hundred miles an hour is something, it’s really exhilarating, but still. Um, oh yeah, a few days later we went to Pilsen as a crew, Fred Coates the pilot and the rest of the crew, I mean he’d already done two spare bods as a pilot getting the idea of what happened, and Johnny the rear gunner had been, but the, I’d been but the others hadn’t so it was all new to them, but us old hands [laugh]. Well we went to Pilsen and our navigator was a graduate and he was a very meticulous navigator, very good, but very meticulous. I mean when we were flying you’d hear his voice come over the, the intercom, ‘What speed are we supposed to be flying at?’ ‘About two hundred and twenty, why?’ he said ‘I want two hundred and twenty five, nothing else, two twenty five is the airspeed.’ So I spent minutes trying to get the, the right speed. And he’d come through, ‘What course are you steering?’ ‘Why?’ He said ‘You’re two degrees out’, oh he was a, he was a menace [laugh]. But on the way, it’s only in latter life that I’ve realised this, but it was his first trip, it was most of us second or third and he was navigating and he said ‘We’re too early, we’re going to get to target too early’ so Fred said ‘Well what do you want to do?’ So Marsh says ‘We’ll do a dog leg, turn, and he gave us a course to turn to the left, to port, and flew out for a few minutes and then to come back into the, into the stream and go, head toward the target again, we’d lose the required minutes. And like fools Fred and I did this, but during the flight we were getting, we were getting, bumped about a bit and we couldn’t understand this because there was no flak to blow us around but we’d get jumped up and down, it would last a minute and then die down and then about a few minutes later again. We couldn’t fathom out what it was, but it’s only in latter life that I’ve realised what it was, because we got to Pilsen and back okay, and then we were put on a daylight to go to Flensburg, and I mean the RAF didn’t flew, didn’t fly in formation, they just got into a gaggle and went. So we joined the bunch and the idea was to get into the middle of the stream, so you kept lifting yourself up a bit, move over and then gradually drop down and force the man underneath to move out of the way so that you were doing this all the time. And occasionally we’d get this bump and it’s only as I say in latter life that I realised that at night when we got these bumps it was the slipstream of planes in front of us, that I never, I never saw a plane during flying at night but we must have been very, very close because it showed up during this daylight. But we went to Flensburg and it was aborted we couldn’t bomb, why we were never told but I did see a Messerschmitt 262 I think was the jet fighter, something came, went through the formation like nobody’s business but we’d got Mustang fighter escort they were most probably about ten thousand feet above us, but we did see them come down and go through the formation, on the way down to the deck whether they’d, they went down to er, hit some of these two five twos taking off, two six twos, but that was quite a sight to see these little, little bits going through the, through the formation. But my war ended with that aborted raid on Flensburg. We were thinking we should be going to Berchtesgaden but all the, the higher ups of the squadron did that, they didn’t let the lower lads do it. Then after the , after the war I flew on Lincolns, 57 Squadron were given three Lincolns initially to carry out service trials on them and by this time our pilot, Fred Coates, had departed. He’d been a police constable before the war and since they wanted the police in peace time to build up again they got Class B releases, or they were allowed to take Class B release. So Fred had just married his Canadian girlfriend who’d come over here to marry and 57 Squadron was one of the squadrons that were going out on Tiger Force to the Far East but Fred said no he wasn’t going to go, he’d get his Class B which he did. And we had another pilot, a Flight Lieutenant Strickland, who was posted into us to take over the crew. He came up I think from Mildenhall, I can’t remember which group they were, but he’d been an instructor in Canada for a number of years and he was very meticulous with his flying, everything was perfect and he kept the rest of us on top line. We flew the Lincolns, we’d got three and I think Mildenhall station they’d got three, we had lots of trouble with engine failures where as Mildenhall had airframe failures, rivets popping and things like that so it was quite, it was quite stressful flying these Lincolns. I’ve got a write up.
CB: We’ll stop there just for a moment.
CA: Yeah, I’ve got a write up actually,
CB: So we’ve stopped for a comfort break, and you were talking about Lincolns, you took on Lincolns?
CA: Oh yeah.
CB: You took on Lincolns. What happened then?
CA: Well, with the Lincolns, we as I say we’d got three and I since found that there was a Flight Lieutenant, Flight Lieutenant Jones who was one of the leading lights in the flight, I can’t recall him really, but erm.
CB: This is still war time before the Japanese surrender isn’t it?
CA: It was, yeah, but it was after the European war –
CB: Yep.
CA: And it was in the time between May and August -
CB: Right.
’45. The Lincoln was, was being produced to go overseas with the Tiger Force because the Lanc’ hadn’t got the range that was required and the Lincoln was supposed to have. But it wasn’t, in our eyes, it wasn’t as good as the Lancaster, I mean we were in love with the Lanc’ whereas the Lincoln was, was something different. I fully remember on one flight, I was sitting down on the right hand side and Pete was flying and I looked out of the starboard side and looked at the wing and I could see the skin rippling and I nearly collapsed with fear because I could see the wing moving up and down, and when it lifted up, so it rippled the skin at the join between the mid-section and the wing section, and for the rest of the flight my eyes never left that section [laugh] that part, but I found out when we got down that the wings moved five feet between the bottom and top and this was due to the weight of them and the, the fuel. And it was only after then that I noticed that when the Lincoln sat on the ground the wings appeared to be drooped and they moved up during the take off period to obtain the flying attitude. But it was a frightening sight I will admit.
CB: So it was a bigger aeroplane?
CA: It was a bigger aeroplane, it was heavier, I don’t know about the bomb load. I don’t think it was any different.
CB: But they were bigger engines and could fly higher and the span was a hundred and twenty four feet?
CA: A hundred and twenty.
CB: Hundred and twenty.
CA: About a hundred and twenty feet, yeah.
CB: Now when did you get promoted to warrant officer?
CA: Two years after I graduated. You were made, when you got your wings, you were a sergeant for about nine to twelve months and then flight sergeant for a year and then you became warrant officer. I mean a lot of the ground crew, senior NCO’s didn’t like this, I mean there were us youngsters who were up to sergeants after about eighteen months and they’d been in the Air Force for years and had just made corporal. So there was a bit of resentment between the ground crew NCO’s and the aircrews. But of course I mean we were only as aircrew given stripes, or officers in case you were ever shot down and taken prisoner, you got better treatment as a NCO, but that was the only reason.
CB: OK, so fast forward again to the Lincolns, your time in the RAF finished when, 1946?
CA: 1946 November.
CB: Right, so what did you do?
CA: What did I do afterwards?
CB: After the war, after the war finished?
CA: Well, I came back and as I said previously, I’d been an apprentice with Avery’s, and my apprenticeship had been cancelled when I joined up. So I went back to Avery’s and recommenced my apprenticeship but due to my service, instead of having to do a further length of time, because I was apprenticed for about five years and I had only done about twelve months, they reduced the remaining time by about twelve months and they concluded my apprenticeship about twelve months, having served and I’d done a four year apprenticeship instead of five, and that would have been somewhere around about 1947, ‘48 when I, they transferred me into the drawing office at Avery’s and I became a draughtsman.
CB: How long did you work as a draughtsman?
CA: Well I left Avery’s in 1951 and I was employed by the Cannon Iron Foundries for a year and then I, I went to Thompson Brothers in Bilsden for about three years and finally finished at ICI Marston Excelsior in ’56.
CB: What did you do there?
CA: I was a design draughtsman there and I, I did design, design work on, I always remember my first job was designing a heat exchanger for the Folland Gnat , just a small one, I can’t remember what it was for, I believe it was for the pilot cooling system to keep him cool. But this was on heat exchange. I finished up actually on heavy fabrication work, in aluminium work, and I became a section leader. I did various jobs, I engineered a liquid ethylene storage plant for ICI organic, organic section I think, or one of the sections at Billingham where we stored surplus liquid ethylene. And we stored it in a big container like a gasometer and I, I was given a piece of ground on the side of the river and put a storage plant there. I must admit that my initial estimate of costs was way down, [laugh] I made a hell of a bloomer, I think I estimated about a hundred and fifty thousand and it finished up at about, eight hundred thousand [laugh] we had quite a, an argument, not argument, discussion why [laugh]. But then I went onto production, onto the production side of the factory, as chief planning officer on fabrications which I, I did until the work started to peter out so I went onto development work on cold rolling of noble alloys for jet engines.
CB: This is all for ICI?
CA: All, yes, it’s all under ICI’s name, we bought in a cold rolling machine from Holland and we used to roll to very, very close tolerances. Rolls Royce were trying to reduce their costs by getting in components where they didn’t really have to do any work on, and I mean the jet engines required diameters to a thou’ in tolerance and we were supposed to try to do this by rolling them, which we did eventually, I mean we bought this machine. I went out to G, GE the American counterpart of Rolls Royce. GEC?
CB: GE yeah, General Electric.
CA: And I spent a fortnight out there getting some idea of how they tackled it but I mean they’d got a different idea I mean where here we had to justify spending sixpence, there the engineer, development engineer said ‘I want a machine it costs two hundred thousand pounds’ and he was given the money and they got the machine. Whereas we were trying to do it on one machine they’d got a battery of them, about ten. I mean this is the reason why they are the world beaters. Money is no object.
CB: When did you finally retire?
CA: I retired in March ’86 having completed thirty years.
CB: OK, thank you, I’ll stop there. So we’re restarting, we’re restarting just on a flashback. So you’re back from Canada as a qualified pilot.
CA: Yeah. I should have said then that I went up to, we were asked where we wanted postings to go to for flying. I never realised that there was a flying school at Wolverhampton otherwise I would have asked, instead I got posted up to RAF Carlisle on Tiger Moths where we did about a month flying a Tiger Moth around getting used to flying in English conditions. We used to take a navigator or a bomb aimer as a passenger for them to practice map reading while we flew it. We did a lot of flying around the Lake District, we were flying over Maryport and Workington I think is the other port, on the coast there. And we, we used to go down and count the number of ships that were in the harbour and things like this, and then having to fly back over the Lake District which was very, which could be quite treacherous with the down draughts and the winds whistling over the hills. It used to bounce the Tiger Moths around like nobody’s business. But we did that for about a month and then we were posted again hoping we were going to get posted to OTUs but it never, never, I was, you asked how I felt. I felt disappointed having made my mind up I was never going to fly single engine fighters I put down for twin engines or multis. The onus was on providing crews for four engine planes. So to get there I’d got to go to an OTU and that was never going to happen. So when I was posted to the engineers’ course I accepted it and it, I was still flying, that was what I wanted to do, I wanted to fly. So that, I made the best of a bad job. I thoroughly enjoyed it I mean, I enjoyed the, being on a squadron, being a crew, being a member of a crew and we’d got a good crew. I mean our mid upper gunner was the only one who could shoot through the aerial leading to the rudders which he did time and time again, it used to cost him half a crown a time when he pierced them, I mean this was when we were doing air to air gunnery and he was firing at a drogue and he’d traverse and ‘ping’ and Andy the wireless operator would say ‘You’ve done it again’ [laugh], but um.
CB: So, how long did you keep your pilots brevet?
CA: All the time.
CB: Oh did you, throughout the war?
CA: Yes, yes we were never forced to change them. That is why I always say I was a PFE rather than a flight engineer, I was a pilot flight engineer. And the pilots that I flew with gave me the opportunity to fly, to pilot. I mean Peter who was the ex-instructor, he was always within reach of pulling me out of the seat if necessary, but Fred he used to go and wander down to the Elsan at the back and leave me in charge. I mean I was playing about one day above the clouds and I was following the, the shape of the clouds up and down and Johnny who was sitting with his turret doors open, fore and aft, and it, it started to get a bit robust, the movement of the up and down movement and the Elsan lid which was tied down with a bungee rubber broke and the contents of the Elsan came up, [laugh], oh dear, and it covered him [laugh], he didn’t speak to me for days [laugh] because he knew it was me and not Fred [laugh].
CB: How did the crew get on together socially?
CA: Very good, very good we never went anywhere unless we went as a six. I mean, we bought our beer in the mess, we bought it by the bucket and helped ourselves with dipping the glass into the bucket rather than separate. No, it was a very good crew, very good.
CB: So in those days you could buy beer in a bucket could you?
CA: In the mess.
CB: In the mess, right.
CA: In the mess yeah.
CB: OK, and as a crew you worked well together?
CA: Oh yes, yes.
CB: And er.
CA: Well Marsh, he was working, he wanted to get onto pathfinders.
CB: Marsh being?
CA: The navigator. He was a very good navigator but, Mac, the bomb aimer, he was more of, an easy come, easy go.
CB: So.
CA: That second or the first raid as a crew to Pilsen we went through the target twice because Mac he wouldn’t drop because he couldn’t line it up properly so he said ‘I’ll send you round again’ and the rest of us shouted ‘What the hell, will you pull them’ and Fred said ‘If you don’t I shall jettison’. So he says ‘Go round again!’ So we had to make our way round and come back and get it back in the stream and fly it through but on the second time he let them go.
CB: This is a daylight raid?
CA: No, this was a night raid —
CB: This was in the night. So the reason I said that is because that sounds a particularly dangerous thing to do when you can’t see anything —
CA: It was a, well this is it, I mean what with trying to get in, slip into the stream, I mean you, I never saw another Lancaster in the stream. And I mean we went through the target we were only given somewhere maybe half an hour from the start to the end of the squadron’s time over the target so I mean God knows how close we were, but we were very close when we were getting buffeted by slipstream. But I mean a, when Marsh sent us on a dog leg when we turned out of the stream and then had to come back and join it again. We didn’t realise the stupidity of it, but Marsh being Marsh he’d got to have it down on his chart.
CB: Why would it have mattered if you had arrived early?
CA: Well a, the target may not have been indicated, or they were down below marking it, so you, I mean er.
CB: You could have bombed your own people —
CA: You could have bombed them, yeah —
CB: Right OK.
CA: And since the Lancaster was always the top flight, I mean it was Lancasters, Halifaxes, Stirlings.
CB: Right, there’s a ranking.
CA: So.
CB: And how did the crew feel, and you feel, about what you were doing as bombers?
CA: I don’t think we thought about it.
CB: OK.
CA: I don’t think we thought about it. I mean the first one — we had been bombed at home in 1940. We’d had a landmine dropped within about a hundred yards of home and our house is most probably still standing with the back, back wall bulged where the roof lifted and the walls started to move and it dropped down and it held. So I wanted to do something back but having that I don’t think you, we never talked about whether there was a right or wrong, it was a job.
CB: My wife was born in a bombing raid in Birmingham.
CA: Eh hum.
CB: What about LMF, did you know anything about that, or experience.
CA: We knew of it.
CB: Yes.
CA: We knew of it but we never met anyone who was accused of it or anything like that. But we didn’t like the idea because it wasn’t nice when you were over there. A funny tale, we had a man on the squadron, he was a dark, a Negro, and he was as black as the ace of spades, colour. And he’d got perfectly white teeth and he was known as twenty three fifty nine, that was his nickname, because twenty three fifty nine is the darkest part of the night, or supposed to be, a minute before midnight. And he was a rear gunner and when he was in his turret at night and you walked past it all you could see was these white teeth. It was really funny, but he was a good lad.
CB: What about other aspects of the work? When you boarded the aircraft what did you have with you to eat or drink?
CA: I think the only thing I can remember is boiled sweets. I mean I can’t ever remember fruit, or anything like that. I don’t think we ever took, I never took a drink at all. I mean I can tell the tale where, I mean, we used, sometimes to remember to take a bottle to use and one day Fred had forgotten his, the pilot, and he was in, he was in dire trouble. So he said ‘I’ve got to have something, I’ve got to have something’ so I was scooting round trying to, what the hell can he have? And I went and took the cover off the G George instrument, gyro, which was a pan of about eight or nine inch diameter and about three or four inches deep held on with four screws. So I took this off and gave him this to use, which he used. So he used it and said ‘Here get rid of it’ so I said ‘How?’ he says ‘Throw it out the window’ so I pulled my sliding window back —
CB: [laugh] —
CA: and threw it out, threw the contents. Of course, I mean as soon as the contents went out the slipstream took it all the way down the canopy, the Perspex, and we, I couldn’t see out of that side all the way back, and I also lost the G cover [laugh] which cost me five shillings and a telling off from the engineer officer. How, why was the G cover uncovered. ‘I can’t remember’ [laugh].
CB: Now what about the ground crew because you relied on them so, what was the relationship with them?
CA: Very good, other than the first time I went, we joined the squadron, and I don’t know whether I ought to say this, can I, can I not get up?
CB: Um.
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Interview with Cyril Abbotts
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Cyril Abbotts volunteered for the Royal Air Force while he was an engineering apprentice with W T Avery at Smethwick. After his reception at Lord’s Cricket Ground and initial training,he trained as a pilot at RAF Bowden and Moose Jaw in Canada. On his return to Great Britain, he spent some time in holding units, before being posted to retrain as a flight engineer at RAF St Athan. He flew operations with 57 Squadron from RAF East Kirkby in 1945 and later converted from Lancasters to Lincolns. Post-war he completed his apprenticeship, becoming a draughtsman for various companies including ICI. He retired after 30 years of service with them.
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Chris Brockbank
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2015-10-15
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Dawn Studd
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01:18:53 audio recording
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eng
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AAbbottsC151015
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Canada
Saskatchewan--Moose Jaw
England--London
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
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Germany
Wales
Saskatchewan
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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1654 HCU
57 Squadron
African heritage
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bombing
Cornell
crewing up
demobilisation
fear
flight engineer
Flying Training School
Heavy Conversion Unit
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Me 262
military discipline
military living conditions
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pilot
promotion
RAF Bridgnorth
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RAF Carlisle
RAF East Kirkby
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RAF Sywell
RAF Wigsley
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-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/197/3332/AAtkinsG160929.2.mp3
9b38cd43b07e35b6cca1c08e2d9ec8d9
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Atkins, Glenn
Glenn Atkins
G Atkins
Description
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One oral history interview with Glenn Atkins (3131148 Royal Air Force). He completed his national service in the RAF during the Cold War.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-09-29
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Atkins, G
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GA: Although I should have gone because I was in the ATC.
CB: Good. Right. This is the first of two interviews for people who joined and served in the RAF after the war but this is essentially the legacy of the war and we are now talking about the beginning of the Cold War. So today we’re with Glenn Atkins in Buckingham and he has done a variety of tasks as a National Serviceman and, Glenn, what do you remember, oh it’s the 29th of September 2016. What do you remember Glenn from your, what are your earliest recollections of family life?
GA: Well I was born at Newport Pagnell. I went to Newport Elementary School, passed my eleven plus in 1941 and I went to Wolverton Grammar School which is now combined as a comprehensive but, and it’s interesting I went to school on a train from Newport Pagnell to Wolverton. It was a four mile train journey and, well I went to the grammar school but after two years I didn’t like it. I didn’t like the languages. The French and the Latin. I think there was a French master that used to take the mickey out of me because I couldn’t follow it. He always used to ask me the questions so I had to stand up and make a fool of myself but that could have been something but I had in the last term at the school before the eleven plus one, one period of, one term of engineering drawing which I presumed it was because we were drawing things out of Wolverton Works and stuff like that you know so I got the idea of being a draughtsman and that’s why I wanted to leave the grammar school and go to the technical college in Wolverton which was one of the best technical colleges around because it had Wolverton Carriage Works as its base that did every, everything you could do such as all forms of engineering. In fact we used to have teachers from the technical college for engineering drawing, for woodwork and metal work. Anyway, I had a job to leave the grammar school because the headmaster didn’t want me to go. He thought it was a slur on him that I wanted to leave to go to a technical college and I can’t understand how I was twelve years old and I used to have to sit at this desk. He’d come in after everybody had gone and try to talk me out of it. I can remember him saying, ‘Well we do art.’ So I said, ‘Well that’s not engineering drawing.’ Anyway, my father went to see the headmaster at the technical college and he was anxious to receive me, you know. Well three of us did it. He wasn’t worried about the other two but I went to the technical college and all I can say is that in the first term because it was a two year course when I went at the technical school at thirteen, in the first term we’d covered all the maths we’d done in two years at the grammar school. It’s a bit like this university here. They cover everything in two years don’t they? Anyway, I came about third in the class, had a bit of an advantage though just coming in but, and I was, ended up as, can I say the star pupil at the end of my year. Now then in 1945 the new Education Act said that everybody should stop at school until they were sixteen and the technical college got a new school certificate out and the headmaster who had changed then from the one who accepted me but he wanted me to stop on the extra eighteen months to start the period over with a few others. Well, a friend, a boy that I was in class with who was always top of the class he got a privileged apprentice at Vauxhall Motors. He lived at Leighton Buzzard and it sounded so interesting to me that I wanted to leave school and go on this apprenticeship scheme. I went to Luton on my bike and a bus which I did ‘cause I lived at Newport Pagnell. I went there. I found my way on this Saturday morning with everybody’s not there. Big buildings big rooms. In the end I found my way to the interview and there were four or five guys sat in a circle and me in the middle like you are sitting there firing the questions at me. It was quite an interview really. Anyway, I did that and then I found my way home and I went in Monday morning and we used to have an assembly at 9 o’clock, main assembly and when you left there you had to file past the headmaster’s office and he was standing there and anybody that had done something wrong he would point and, get in his office. Nobody got that except me. ‘In there.’ So I went in there and he said, ‘How did you get on?’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ ‘Your interview at Luton.’ I says, ‘How did you know? I never told anybody.’ ‘I have a way of knowing these things,’ he said. He said, ‘Did you get the job?’ I says, ‘No. They didn’t, they didn’t want me.’ He said, ‘I knew they wouldn’t.’ I said, ‘How did you know?’ ‘Because I wrote them a letter asking them not to take you for the reasons I’m going to tell you’. I said, ‘I went through all of that, that interview you know and all that hassle for nothing.’ He said, ‘It’ll do you good for the rest of your life.’ Anyway, he was good of his word because when I came the top of the class in the end and he always said he would find me the best job outside Wolverton Works which was where everybody seemed to go and of course it was Wipac and they’d just started in Bletchley during the war. They came down from London and they’d just bought the company from the Americans because the Americans were convinced in 1942 that we were going to lose the war so they were going to sell the factory you see. Well he bought the factory and, well John’s father knows about this, he was the carpenter but anyway again I cycled in to Bletchley, had my interview and I was a trainee design draughtsman. That was my title at sixteen. 1946. And I carried on then doing night school and day release education to get my, first of all my ordinary national after two years and then another two years for my higher national which I got by the age of twenty and then I thought they’d forgotten about me ‘cause I got deferred from when I was eighteen to get, to do this education. Then Christmas came no buff envelope you know and I really thought they’d forgotten me and then on bloody New Year’s Day it came. Report at Padgate on the 15th of January 1951. I can remember getting my ticket from that little old railway station at Newport Pagnell which they stamped in it and it would take you all the way to Padgate you know and caught the train there early in the morning and Audrey, my wife, I was, we were courting then by about a year. That was my biggest regret was leaving here because I didn’t want to leave her. Anyway, I caught the train to Padgate. Well it wasn’t Padgate. What was it? The station near there anyway and when I got there there was a bunch of chaps like me with a little case all going to do their National Service and everybody was so polite. Even the bus driver. He was an air force man. Until we went through the gates at Padgate and then it all changed. Everybody shouting at you. All the rest. Anyway, we went to this little hut which had twenty two beds in it and we were told to find ourselves a bed space each and I picked one next to the chap in the corner who was from Derbyshire. We hadn’t been there long and the warrant officer came in. Typical you know, loud. ‘Gather around,’ he says. He said, ‘Anybody been in the ATC?’ Well I had. I’d been in the ATC for twelve months. I stuck my hand up didn’t I? He said, ‘Right you’re in charge of this lot,’ he said. ‘You have to march them down to the cookhouse, march them back, everywhere they go they march in order and you’re in charge. You’ve got to get them up by 6 o’clock in the morning to be on parade at seven’. And this went on. First of all we marched in our civvies and then we gradually got kitted out with our uniform and we got half a uniform while the trousers were being altered and that sort of thing. And one incident was marching them down to the cookhouse and we were doing it quite smart actually. I was on the outside and then I could see two officers about a hundred, well I thought, fifty yards away. Out of sight I thought. So we carried on. Suddenly I thought, ‘Airman.’ I knew that was me. I stood and saluted, Went over there and they said, ‘Do you realise you salute officers whenever you meet them?’ I said, ‘Yes but I thought you were too far away.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You just remember that for the future,’ he said. ‘By the way,’ he said, ‘You’d better take charge of your squad. They’ve just marched outside the main gate.’ The buggers were all walking out of Lincoln so I had to run after then and turn them around and come back again and they were all laughing like mad you know. And, but all I can remember about that cookhouse was they were the lowest of the low the chaps in charge there and they all shared an attitude as if they were small children, you know. I would have loved to go back and tell them what I thought of them there afterwards. Anyway, we’d only been there two weeks and we had a recruitment call at this camp cinema and we went down there and the officer commanding, Bomber Command was doing the speech from the platform and he said we’d run the armed forces down to below, down to Dunkirk level and the Cold War was coming on. So anybody, they wanted so many air force so anybody that had a school certificate or equivalent could volunteer to go down to Hornchurch and get selected. There were seventy of us actually but I was the first one to put my name down but not to do with flying. I just wanted more money because I started at Wipac at twenty eight, thirty bob a week so when I went in the, when I got called up for National Service I went to twenty eight bob a week. A shilling a day. Anyway, we went down to Hornchurch. We had all the tests over three days like spin you around and walk in a white line afterwards. Oh the decompression chamber was one where they lowered the compression until they gave you a writing pad with a pen until you went doing all this business. You were just about to pass out and then finish it off but went through all that which was a bit of a surprise. I had got a cold at the time and I was frightened to death I was going to fail ear nose and throat and go back to Padgate for another two or three weeks. Anyway, I got through it and the one thing I remember is that I was fast asleep. I went to bed early before 10 o’clock with aspirins to try and get rid of the cold. I’d just about got off to sleep and somebody came and shook me on the shoulder and it was him. He said, ‘Hey, hey George’. I said, ‘I’m not George.’ ‘Oh sorry.’ he said, ‘I thought you were somebody else.’ That was our first meeting. Anyway, after all the tests, on the Monday we were going back to Padgate and a squadron leader air gunner asked me up in his office and he spoke to me like a father and he said, ‘You see my badge?’ You know it was an emblem and I thought squadron leader air gunner, they were pre, he must be administration afterwards, after the war. He says, ‘If you go back to Padgate with your qualifications you’ll get an LAC electrician. Boring,’ he said. ‘Take my advice. We need three air gunners. He said, ‘In actual fact we need twelve aircrew anyway out of seventy but you were very close to being a pilot which is what you put down for.’ I said, ‘Well I didn’t want anything else.’ He said, ‘Well you take air gunner and you’ll have the time of your life.’ So I did what he said and that’s when I met these three. Those three. That was who I ended up with. We lost him. He was a Scotsman. Anyway, we get back to Padgate and they gave us the filthiest jobs they could find because they knew we were going to go to aircrew. In fact he got conjunctivitis. We were shovelling coal or something you know. Anyway, we went off to, we got posted to Leconfield after only about two or three weeks square bashing. At Leconfield they’d got Wellingtons and that was our air gunnery training where we used to go up in a Wellington and five air gunners would go up with it with a Polish pilot and we would have turns in the rear turret for about a quarter of an hour each with Mark 10 Spitfires attacking us with camera guns and we used to be, our cameras were taken to the crew room afterwards and shown what we scored and they did the same at their base which was further up the road and we got marked. Well I think I got sixty three percent which was very high for an air gunner. Anyway, we did the the course which took us to about May. Incidentally, in the war they trained air gunners within two weeks but in National Service we didn’t only have to learn how to fire the guns we had to know all the mechanism of it. A lot of theory and all that business just to give us something to do I think and then we got posted to Scampton to get crewed up to an aircraft which was the Lincoln. So we went down to Scampton and we had three months conversion to this aircraft. We got through air gunnery quite quickly but we, oh I must say this, when we got to Scampton we all went to this big room and everybody’s conversion about from any age, down from thirty five down to national servicemen. All aircrew trying to get a crew. Well that’s where my Yorkshire friend who was three years younger than me took charge and said, ‘Let’s go for the oldest pilot. He’ll look after us.’ It seemed like a good idea to me so I said, ‘Yeah ok.’ So I went and I sorted him out. ‘Yeah we need two air gunners,’ so we went with him and then we did the conversion and he was an old pilot at thirty four. Ernie Howard. He’d been flying Hurricanes before that. He was out in Japan. Not on Hurricanes but on other aircraft and of course having a Lincoln or a Lancaster was a bit heavy for him so he had to do more circuits and bumps than anybody else landing and taking off and my mate got unconscious hitting his head the roof with the tail coming down too heavy and actually after that they stopped air gunners being in the rear turret. Only the mid-upper could stop while they were doing circuits and bumps. Well we got through in the end and then we got posted. Now they needed one crew with 617 squadron which was the number one squadron you see and because he was the oldest and most experienced in years we went with him and that’s why we were the only two National Servicemen ever flew with 617 because there was nobody else and the aircrew just started for National Servicemen. Well I had the six months up till Christmas ’51 with 617 where I did about a hundred hours. We did various operations, you know, to test all the fighter bases in Europe. We always used to fly up close to the Iron Curtain to show our strength to the Russians but the thing was if we strayed over the border you were shot down. In fact one did get shot down but we didn’t. Anyway, it was all good fun to us. Anyway, we used to come back [pause] but one exercise I remember once we took off from Scampton, we got posted to Scampton from Leconfield from Scampton to Leconfield no to Binbrook. Binbrook in North Lincolnshire and I can always remember taking off from there in this big exercise with about twenty Lincolns taxiing around to take off and all the villagers were there waving and that and we went off, we flew off in the daylight because it was August. We flew out to the North Sea. Ten we flew and attacked Paris. Then we attacked Copenhagen. Then we flew down to Southern Germany, I forget the name and that finished it. We flew up the Iron Curtain and flew up in to the North Sea and we got in to formation then and we attacked London which was to drop these twenty five pounders on a practice bombs on a practice range beyond London. Well when we came over the North Sea every fighter plane in the British air force and the Americans was attacking us. It was full of aircraft. We would have been shot out before we reached the coast. I mean the Americans like I say a proper formal attack which they did, which the British air force did but the American used to come straight at you like that. Never had a hell of hitting you except colliding with you or something. Anyway, we flew past London. When we went over Clacton I think they must have thought war had been declared but we never heard anything about it. I suppose things were still going on after the war that they expected all these exercises. When we got down to Larkhill, that was it, the bombing range and we dropped our bombs and we called back to base. We were supposed to carry on down to Cornwall and we got called back to base because of thunderstorms and was I glad because I’d had nine hours sitting in a mid-upper turret which was like a bicycle seat. Was I sore, you know? And of course we were on oxygen in those things. We didn’t get air conditioning whatever so that was that experience. And then at Christmas they converted to Canberras, 617. I stopped on for a month on number 9 squadron. They needed an air gunner. John, my friend had already been posted to another base on Lincolns again and then I got posted down to Coningsby on B29 Fortresses. Whereas a crew of seven was on the Lincoln a crew of eleven was on the B29 and I was a side gunner. There were five air gunners on a B29. One on each side. On the top he was the master gunner, one in the tail and one in the front. Oh and there was a belly gunner as well but we didn’t usually use him because that was a bit uncomfortable laying down there but the master gunner could control all the three at the back with a switch. Talk about computers. This is 1952. It was all done mechanically and so if there was an aircraft attacking me on my side he could swing his guns around and take over my guns. Now if it swung over to the other side my gun would swing around, no, he would take over that one but the rear one he could do either way. That was good fun on a B29 because it was pressurised at ten thousand feet so we didn’t have oxygen masks. In fact we even had ashtrays there. Typical Americans. Whereas in a Lincoln of course it was bare and very uncomfortable. All the spars were showing and all the rest and you couldn’t smoke, you could set alight. Having said that the pilot often used to smoke. I was a non-smoker but the lovely smell of Player’s cigarettes coming down the fuselage was lovely but I never did it. Anyway, where were we? Oh at Coningsby we had an escape and evasion exercise that I remember quite well. We were taken out in a lorry, enclosed, dumped about forty miles away from the base anywhere when it was fully dark and given a rough map to find our way back to the base at Coningsby so I picked our navigator because I thought he would know the way with the stars which was a good idea because he did and it was a lovely moonlit night. We went straight across the fields but he was scared to death of animals. He’d come from London. Cows, horses he couldn’t stand them. We had to go all the way around the field just to avoid cows. Anyway, we went, we gradually got nearly halfway home. Daylight had come and we got a sugar beet out of the field to carve up to eat it because we were hungry and we decided to make for his married quarters in Coningsby, on the outskirts of Coningsby which backed on to the railway line. He said, ‘If we get to the railway line and follow the railway line in,’ and we got there about Saturday afternoon. His wife cooked us ham and eggs which was not allowed and then we went to bed for a couple of hours and then we said. ‘Look we’ve got to find our way to this base, the base camp,’ because the second exercise was to attack Coningsby camp which was three or four miles away. We’d got to find this base camp which we knew was on the outskirts of Coningsby so we told his wife to [form] ahead and we would follow behind and if, of course the army and police were looking for us with cars going everywhere if ever you saw an army guy just give a whistle which she did and we jumped over the nearest fence and hid. Well we escaped everybody in to there without being noticed by anybody and I said, ‘Well we’d better crawl over this field.’ It was getting a bit light. In the end I said, ‘This is bloody ridiculous,’ I said, ‘because we’ll have to get up to walk in.’ So we got up to walk in when we were only about a hundred yards away and we frightened them to death. They thought we were attacking them. Anyway, we got in there. There had a fire burning and we got a cup of coffee and at a certain hour, I think it was 5 o’clock we had to attack the camp. Again my friend said, he paved the way and we went together and we got in this field, went across it and there was a hedge and a ditch. Oh and that was it. Going across this if we got across there there was horses. Well he was frightened to death of these horses so he burst through the fence and there were two army guys sat on the other side having a fag and they chased after him and he got caught. Well they came back having another fag. I waited against this ditch and burst through the fence and ran like mad and thirty yards before they woke up to what happened and I was like a scared rabbit with people chasing me across this field. I scampered down this alleyway behind the married patch, found an outside loo with a door on it so I jumped in there, shut the door and I hear, they were coming along opening all the doors. In the end they opened the door and I give up. Now the interesting thing was I got very close. There was only two blokes out of God knows how many got into the camp and what they did they flagged a car down, a private individual and said, ‘Give us a lift to the camp and we’ll hide in the back seat,’ and when they were challenged by the police they opened the back door and ran and jumped through the fence. They had somebody standing every twenty yards along that perimeter. You could never get through normally but they were the only two who did it. Now my mother was always a means to this because egg and bacon was my standard meal actually and when they caught you they shoved you in this hangar with nothing in there except a keg of water and a cup but at the end they were frying egg and bacon and they were interrogating people to find out where the base camps were. Well I never told them but I must say the egg and bacon smelt very good but it’s amazing they found every base, all far, except ours. We were the fifth. And people actually said because they wanted to eat. And that was peacetime. Anyway, that’s, that’s a story I remember about Coningsby and also we was flying over the North Sea. We’d been Air Sea firing and as we flew over the Skegness they were playing, a band, a band was playing. We were so low we blew all the music off the people playing the music off. Well the pilot got severely reprimanded I can tell you. The one thing I remember about on the Lincoln was our pilot he did a stupid thing. We were going out on Air Sea firing and we were coming back. Flying low. So low that we levelled out with the slipstream the waves really and suddenly one of the outboard engines went and I thought that’s funny and then another one went and he said, ‘Crew prepare for ditching.’ I thought bloody hell I’m sitting in the mid upper turret, John’s down the back end but he came up. I don’t know, he was up there in about two seconds and he tapped me on the shoulder ‘cause I had a habit of going to sleep you know and I was off intercom and he, the only way he could converse, with cupping his hands in my ears and I said, ‘Is he serious?’ And he said, ‘Bloody well get down here,’ ‘cause we had to go and sit by the main spar, with our back to it and intercom and our head between our legs. We sat there and the engines was droning on, just two engines and then suddenly one burst in to life and the other one. Oh we’re ok. Then the captain said, ‘Sorry crew,’ he said, ‘Only practicing.’ He got really, he got really hauled over the coals because the rear gunner could have jumped out of the rear end with his life jacket. Anyway, that was one experience. Well when it came to the end of our period sure enough I went in on the 15th of January. I came out on the 15th of January. They tried hard to persuade us to go down to Hornchurch again to go as pilots but, one of our friends he did and the one I, he wished he had have done because he said that was the best. He loved it all. I thought, I was thinking of Audrey all the blooming time, trying to get home there and I thought it’s not going to be my life. A married patch, never knowing where you were going to live so I turned it down and I got demobbed on the 15th of Jan and started back at Wipac soon after because they had to give you your job back everywhere you know, if you did your National Service so I was in the air force, well I was at Wipac until ‘46 to 1951 and I was at Wipac from when I came out in 1953 to when I retired in 1994. Forty eight years. Eventually I became very quickly chief design on electrics which is quite interesting because Wipac came over from America and they only made magnetos for stationery engines but Jarman could see what was going to happen, that magnetos was going to die out so he started to go into lighting. The first thing we did was cycle dynamo set and I drew the lamp up for that which was copying a Swiss one you know. To get some idea of it. Then we went on to the first Bantam. We did the lighting for that in 1948 so I’d only been back two years by then. I can honestly say I drew up the headlight for the first Bantam and the rear light and really Wipac progressed from there until lighting took over from the magnetos but with Wipac the BSA Bantam we had to, we did do the magneto which the magneto generator ‘cause while it had a coil to get the energy for the spark, the ignition it also had two coils to produce lighting for the lights which were a bit dud because if your engine went down your lights went down with AC lighting. Anyway, they went, we then progressed into better lighting all the while I was at Bletchley. That was right up until 1960. By then we were on most of the motorcycle in one way or the other doing the full equipment and our biggest competitor of course was Lucas. But I was, I was destined to have the key job outside directorship was the sales manager for contracts with Ford and Austin Rover and places like that. Well I used to go out with this guy often because I was then technical liaison. I was in charge of the design office but also going out to meet the customers. Well that was a great help to him because I, because I was a designer I could understand the problems. Well I always hit it off with the buyers and the engineers because I was technical so when he retired and he was sixty seven and Jarman kept all his old buddies on there until they were sixty seven because he wanted to stop until he was eighty which he did. Anyway, he, he took three weeks holiday and Jarman said, ‘If he can have three weeks holiday he’s no good to me,’ he said. ‘He’s only allowed two weeks,’ he said. So he called me up in the office and told me this and said, ‘You can have his job.’ So, oh no I must tell you this when I was technical liaison I used to go up to the motor show and motor cycle show as technical liaison I was on the stand with customers coming aboard and we had two young ladies come up from Wipac the offices and one of the sales people, he was a lot older than me he’d invited them up to give them a day out. Well the night before they were we were on the stand, a guy named Chubb Dyer, just us two and at about 6 o’clock Michael Jarman had gone home because he was always on the stand and this little chap came there with a handlebar moustache and he was the advertising manager for the Daily Telegraph. He was a little air force man. He was only about five foot two tall and he said, ‘Is Michael here?’ ‘No he always goes at half past 5.’ ‘Oh dear.’ I said, ‘Can I help? Can I offer you a drink?’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said. That’s what he came for really. ‘Well,’ I said, ‘We don’t have drinks on the stand but the bar is down there. I can, you can have what you like.’ So I went down there. Well I tried to keep up with his whiskies to start with. That was enough but when he’d gone we went back to the stand, shut it up, Chubb and I at 9 o’clock and then walked back to the hotel in Earl’s Court and we passed this Australian pub. All sort of noises were going on in there. I said, ‘Let’s go in there Chubb,’ because I’d had a few anyway. Soon as I walked through the door, ‘Here you are [cobber], first on the house,’ and it was a hell of a party, you know. I had to get home and Chubb left long before me and I could hardly walk and I staggered back to the hotel. How I got there I don’t know. Course I went to bed and I felt terrible in the morning. Consequently never get back on the stand till about 10 o’clock, half past ten and the sales manager then who actually Audrey used to work for as his secretary. He’d become sales manager. My boss. Well he didn’t like me. He liked Audrey of course. Anyway, he, he went back to Wipac and he told Jarman that I hadn’t behaved very well on the stand and was a disgrace to the company and all the rest so when I got back to work on a Monday I was hauled up to the office. Jarman sat there, having promised me this job, the big job, ‘I hear you’ve misbehaved yourself at the motor show I believe you’re not fit to represent the company.’ I told him the story. He’d made up his mind because at one time the reason he wanted me to go from Bletchley to Buckingham was to take charge of half the factory. The lighting side. So he said, ‘You’re not having that job I promised. You’re going in the factory and you’re going to be the manager of the lighting side.’ Well I was downcast. When I got back to my office they’d taken all my office, all my equipment out, dumped it out in the factory in an office out on the outskirts and anyway it took me three days to get over it and I thought well if this is going to be it I’m going to be it I’m going to make a go of this you know and I arranged the office and it was a big office. The foremen had their desks, you know, three foremen you know, There was two women on doing the processing, the paperwork and I had big charts on the wall of every, every employee. What they were getting, what they were building that week you know and what line they was on. It was all in control and I used to stop there until half past seven at night to fill it all in every week after Thursday. We used to plan the next week positive what we’d build and the next week tentative. And the guy that was in the meeting he used to make all the notes ‘cause the main thing you’d got to supply to everything was a reflector which was pressed, lacquered and aluminised. That was the key factor and, well I made a real success of it. In fact I was lucky again, I’ve always been lucky. Our biggest contract was Ford. The first one was the front turn signal lamp for the Cortina and we were building up to two thousand five hundred pairs a day but we gradually built up to that because when I took over they’d just started. I had forty people under me to start with and I had a hundred and thirty when I finished. In the year. Tha’s how we progressed so the bonus was very good because of the increase in production and I’d come to about August again. I was called up to the office and there was Jarman. He said, ‘Sit down.’ He said, ‘You’ve done a pretty good job,’ he said. He said it very reluctantly. I want you to take Barry’s job, that’s when he said, ‘He’s had three weeks holiday. I don’t need him.’ So he said you can have that again. Now I didn’t say, ‘Thank you very much Mr Jarman,’ as everybody used to almost get on their knees with Jarman. He ran it like a ship you know. I said, ‘I’m not so sure.’ He said. ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘Well you told me that was a great job out there. It was like running a factory without having the finance,’ and I said, ‘I built it up until there’s what a hundred and thirty people and it’s all going so smoothly.’ He said, ‘Are you telling me you don’t want the job?’ I said, ‘I didn’t say that,’ I said. ‘You’ve been like a father to me,’ I said. I was creeping then. I said, ‘Is it more money?’ He said, ‘Of course it is.’ I said, ‘Is it a company car?’ He said, ‘Of course it is.’ ‘I’ll take the job.’ I got more credentials by that interview from him, with being like that. Anyway that job went equally as well because I made sure I saw every engineer, every buyer, every inspector every visit I made. I was out three or four days a week. In fact that same sales director that put the black on me for a job he wrote me a memo once, I’ve still got it, about, I don’t know how many days in the month I’d spent out entertaining, you know, lunches and that and I wrote back and I said, ‘Well look at the contracts we’ve got.’ And believe me in those days and I still think it goes at least with my daughter’s business which she’s in events you wouldn’t get a contract with Ford Motor Company unless a buyer got to know you personally and got a trust in you first and trust in the company. Well I used to, I gave them a game of golf. I was always, I was known as Mr Lunch Atkins because I never went anywhere without lunch ‘cause I soon found out if I wanted to go to Austin Rover and wanted to see the chief buyer he’d give me an interview at say 11 o’clock or twenty past ten. That would be in the interview room but if I said, ‘What about 12 o’clock and have some lunch?’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said. Well I’d get two hours then and then he’d get, with a drink or two he’d take me to meet the engineers and everybody and it all worked and I actually got the first contract out of Austin Rover had only ever been given on lighting to anybody other than Lucas because, that’s interesting, Lucas had a contract with them from before the war when there was depression when Lucas supplied their goods to Austin without payment to keep them going and they said they’d never buy any electrical good except from Lucas and that was carried on until the 60s or 70s. So there you are. We got, we gradually got contracts all the way through until the big one at Ford was three thousand pairs a day and it was the transit wheel on the transit van. Now, you can imagine they got damaged very often because they were very vulnerable to collision and the spares business was bigger than the oe. We were supplying Southampton and Ghent in Belgium so we were a hundred percent sourced but we only just saved that twice by me going over to Germany with the new director of, because Wipac was sold in 1987 and the new director there twice I took him over there and we talked our way into keeping the business ‘cause I said we designed the thing in keeping with Ford and what they wanted to do was to take the business over to Poland which they did eventually and well then Wipac got sold again in 1992 having built the factory that you see now where Tesco’s was. You remember the old Tesco factory don’t you? What it was like? And I didn’t know it but it was a five year contract, his, him and his directors and they sold to [?]. Now, the new, that was a new forty year old director, managing director. I, of course was sixty four but he still let me do the job the same way for these eighteen months I was with him but I liked the job. Of course I did. I was out most days and it was easy but the thing was our biggest contract on this rear lamp was in Ford spares in Spain. Now I’d been over there twice and made great friends with these buyers. Took them out to lunch and had my photograph taken with them you know. They took a photograph and my arms around them but saying it’s all good but if anything ever went wrong on supplies they didn’t phone the factory they phoned me at home and I had to go and sort it out but that was it and then when the new guy was going to take over from me I said, ‘We’ve got to go and see these people in Spain.’ He thought oh no Atkins wants a freebie, you know, over in Spain and the MD I think thought the same. I said, ‘If we don’t go we’ll lose it.’ Anyway, I left. I went to see the MD and I said, ‘I don’t want to leave.’ I said, ‘Why don’t you let me look after your big contracts. Come in two or three days a week because the people outside don’t know you and your directors because you’ve only been here eighteen months but they know me. I’ve been here forty years or more.’ He said, ‘Yes Glenn,’ he said, ‘You’ve done a wonderful job but you’re way of doing business is not the modern way.’ And I said, ‘What is the modern way?’ He said, ‘Well the modern way they’ve got a telephone on the desk and they’ve got a computer.’ We’d just gone on to computers. ‘They don’t need to go anywhere.’ I said, ‘You’ll never get business with the Ford and people like that unless they build a trust up. They know me but they don’t know you people at all.’ So he said, ‘No. That’s all they need. The telephone and the computer.’ Within eighteen months of him telling, of me leaving they lost that big contract with Spain which was a fifth of the company’s turnover. Fifteen million a year we were doing and he lost his job. I’d have loved to have met him to say about the way you should do a job. What’s that got to do with the air force? Nothing. If I’ve bored you I’m sorry.
CB: No. No. It’s absolutely fascinating and there is a link with these things on the relationships you formed in crews.
GA: Yeah.
CB: Tell us about the crewing up. So you went to the oldest man.
GA: Yes.
CB: What was his reaction?
GA: He just needed two air gunners and two of the young likely lads he got. We lost, on our conversion we lost the younger navigator because we were bombing practice and he made a mistake and bombed the quadrant and we were summoned back to base because they thought they were going to hit the caravan which where the people were spotting and he got, and we got, replaced the navigator by the oldest navigator who was Jock Graham and he used to treat us National Servicemen as though he was our father. I know when we passed out he took us all down to Lincoln for a booze up you know but it was all interim you see then the Lanc, the Lincoln because like I said by the Christmas they were going over to Canberras and I suppose the air pilot and the navigator were two oldest they probably went, you know. They never converted.
CB: So why did some crews go to Canberras and some of them on to - ?
GA: Well it was a different kettle of fish weren’t it ‘cause they only had a pilot and a navigator on a Canberra so no gunners, no engineers, no signallers.
CB: So you changed squadron to go to -
GA: No, it stopped.
CB: The B29s.
GA: Yeah. They stopped at 617.
CB: Yeah.
GA: The Canberras until the V bombers came in.
CB: Yeah. 0k. So, tell us about the B29 Washington. What was that like?
GA: Well -
CB: When you got into that?
GA: It was lovely. Like a civil aircraft really. Beautifully equipped and there was a pressurised and there was a tunnel about that diameter between, went over the bomb bays that linked the pilot area with the air gunner area at the back and we had a navigator, a radar operator sat with us. He was in the middle, a gunner each side and one up there and we had a little cooking stove at the back for boiling water so we used to boil beans and ham and egg in this thing. We weren’t allowed to go through that tunnel because if we got stuck and the air pressure went forward or back you’d go out there like a bullet out of a gun you see so we used to throw these hot tins of soup whatever it was at least the length of this house and he used to catch it in a sack. I remember that.
CB: So whose job was it to do the cooking?
GA: Oh one of us gunners. Yeah. All we did was drop a can in this hot water tank. But the worst job I had to do, well we took it in turns, was in the unpressurised area. That was the very back. There was a door in to there but when we came in to land there was a stationery engine in there, a V8 engine which was covered in frost because it was and we had to take it in turns to go and start it after we were taxiing, flying around to land because that was to keep the batteries up for when we landed and the engines went down in power. Now getting in there, freezing cold, being bumped about I used to feel sick I must admit but you just had to do it. You got covered in hoar frost. You just had to pray it would go and it did. That was another thing.
CB: So the rear gunner was in his own, was he pressurised after ten thousand feet?
GA: I’m not sure.
CB: Because you are saying that there is an envelope which is the only reason, only way pressurisation can work.
GA: Yeah.
CB: You can’t have people coming in and out.
GA: Do you know I can’t remember? We never flew with a gunner in the rear anyway.
CB: Why was that?
GA: I don’t know why. We never did.
CB: So you talked about the master gunner controlling all the guns.
GA: Yeah.
CB: How did that work exactly because the people who were manning those guns, the forward and the rear -?
GA: Well we had a control for air guns but he had a control that would override that one and take it over. His own special one.
CB: So these guns were what calibre? They were .5s. They weren’t cannon were they?
GA: No.
CB: Point 5 machine guns.
GA: The Lincoln had got two cannons.
CB: Oh had you?
GA: In the turret. Yeah well that was the difference between the Lincoln and the Lancaster.
CB: Yeah.
GA: Was the mid-upper turret and the radar dome and about six feet on the wing span but the, those two twenty millimetre cannons on the Lancaster we had four 505s in the rear and when we went on air sea firing the whole aircraft used to shake with these twenty millimetres and I can remember it was at Scampton and we were being tested to see how good we were but I used a full magazine of these 20mm cannons. The only one. A complete magazine. That was sheer luck because it was the armourer that loaded it not me and they made a particular note of that because one thing you couldn’t do was if you got a shell stuck in the breech you weren’t allowed to take it out because they’d had a case or two cases of gunners trying to do that and it exploded in their face so we just, the reason they were pleased that I’d shot the whole lot was because I never had a breech block. I didn’t have a breach block. Yeah.
CB: So the .5 machine guns were belt fed.
GA: Yeah.
CB: The 20 millimetre was with -
GA: No. They were belt fed.
CB: They were belt as well.
GA: Yeah.
CB: You said a magazine you see so I wondered whether -
GA: Well they called it a magazine.
CB: It was a clip on magazine was it?
GA: Yeah. No. No, it was a belt.
CB: And then the belt came out of a tray at the bottom? How was it, how was it fed?
GA: Well at least they retrieved the cases which in the old days they used to file them away didn’t they? I can’t remember.
CB: That’s ok.
GA: You know I went back to, with a friend of mine about five years ago to Duxford and there’s a B29 there and we found it and I had a photograph taken somewhere.
CB: And they let you get in it did they?
GA: Me standing behind it.
CB: Well we can have a bit of a look at that a bit later can’t we?
[pause]
GA: I don’t know.
CB: Let me just ask you about the OTU.
GA: All I can say is when I went back to see.
CB: Yes.
GA: The B29 after all those years.
CB: Yeah.
GA: I couldn’t find my way in because we used to have an entrance near the blisters.
CB: Oh did you?
GA: A side entrance.
CB: Yeah.
GA: A trap door on the side as the rest of the crew got up the front. What they’d done they’d sealed the door up.
CB: Oh.
GA: In the museum.
CB: Yeah. So people didn’t get in.
Other: Some water. He’s made you a coffee has he?
CB: Yes thank you. Won’t be long.
Other: Or did you make it?
GA: Of course I remembered.
CB: I’m stopping just -
[machine paused]
CB: Back at the OTU you described earlier about the training, the crewing up but what were the tasks you had to do because different members of the crew had to do different things but everybody worked together?
GA: Oh used to go on different operations bombing, bombing places and targets. We did certain air sea firing. We never did air to air firing.
[conversation in the background]
GA: We only had camera guns for air to air.
CB: Yes. I see.
GA: We did that for three months I think.
CB: Yes.
GA: But we was always with the crews when they were being tested for signalling or pilot or navigator. Not always together.
CB: Right. Yeah.
GA: So what they did I don’t know except the circuits and bumps.
CB: But you did cross countries.
GA: Oh yeah. A lot.
CB: What about fighter affiliation? Tell us about that.
GA: Oh we took off and we had Mark 10 Spitfires attacking us from the station further up but at Scampton we didn’t do any of that. We did it all at Leconfield.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
GA: Air to air.
CB: At Leconfield, yeah.
GA: And when we were at Scampton, you were talking about OTU well we just used to fly really. We always used to have to, I was the main lookout for the rear end being in the mid-upper and that was, thankfully the rear gunner used to wake me up occasionally.
CB: But just to get a grip of how did the fighter affiliation work? Because the British technique and the American techniques were different. Could you just describe those? So with these Spitfires what was their technique?
GA: They used to fly alongside at a range over six hundred metres and we had a sight that had, what used to have like four balls on a screen in a circle and that by your feet used to adjust the range because you used to get the Spitfire attacking aircraft wingspan, put on the thing and that you adjusted it for that distance with this there. That was done by your feet back that way and then you were steering the turret that way aiming it at the Spitfire with the centre being at the attacking aircraft and you would follow it all the way down keeping the wingspan between you and he had the same thing on the Spitfire actually to attack me but they used to fly alongside, set the speed of your aircraft and you set the speed of their aircraft and then you’d do that one and double back and come up that way.
CB: Come in from behind.
GA: Yeah. So that by the time they levelled out they were shooting straight at the fuselage which you see is far more easier than if you’re going that way and trying to hit that way. That was it.
CB: So, so at the end of the sortie then what happened?
GA: We’d go back to our crew room with a screen and they could fit, your film would go on and they’d show the attack of the fighter attacking and what you’d achieved.
CB: So how soon would they have the film processed and ready to view?
GA: It seemed to be within the day.
CB: It wasn’t within an hour or two.
GA: It could have been. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
GA: I think it was. Now the same thing happened to the Spitfire pilot. He was at the one up the road. About ten miles up the road.
CB: Right.
GA: Can’t remember the name. Began with D.
CB: Dishforth. Dishforth.
GA: Yes.
CB: Right on the A1.
GA: Yeah.
CB: Right. So they, what, when you looked at the camera gun film who was with you to make the assessment?
GA: Oh the training officer. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
GA: Oh yeah they, two blokes had to be beside you while they studied your film.
CB: And how did they make an assessment and feedback of that?
GA: I don’t know.
CB: What did they say?
GA: I can’t remember them saying anything except they gave me sixty three percent. I suppose whether you wandered off and that sort of thing but you see that’s where that air gunner that told me to go for gunnery down at Hornchurch he said the next best thing to being the pilot was to be the rear gunner because you’re using your feet and you’re using your hands and you’re supposed to give a commentary to the pilot about on you’re doing. I mean when the attacking aircraft was coming in you had to be constantly telling the pilot where he was and all that.
CB: So it was a running commentary was it?
GA: Yeah.
CB: And that was your job. Not the rear gunner.
GA: Well we both had to do it.
CB: Right.
GA: Yeah.
CB: Ok. And we’re now in the early 50s so as fighter evasion what would be the tactic?
GA: We never did any. We never trained for that.
CB: Did you do corkscrews?
GA: No. You see I was told they had more fatalities through accidents than they ever did through enemy action. Did you know that?
CB: Well they lost a lot.
GA: Yeah.
CB: And in the B29 what was the manoeuvrability of that like compared with the Lancaster?
GA: I don’t know. We didn’t have to evade much, you see. We just flew dead steady. We did a bit of twisting and turning with the Lincoln.
CB: The Lincoln I meant to say. Yeah. Ok. Stop there.
[machine paused]
GA: It was just like wartime.
CB: So when you’d come back from a sortie -
GA: Yeah but before -
CB: You’d land the aircraft -
GA: Before we went out -
CB: Yes.
GA: We all used to go out in the big assembly room.
CB: Right.
GA: And then they would describe what was going to happen and then we would have to go. Particularly I remember the one at Binbrook because on the Lincoln we didn’t know when we were going to take off and we didn’t know where we were going. Only the pilot knew that so his briefing was separate. We just had the general picture but we didn’t know what time we were taking off or what targets we were going towards but we’d all be debriefed afterwards when we got back. I know it was peacetime but they still did it.
CB: So what was the process, the format of the debriefing because you’d got seven crew? How did they deal with that?
GA: Well they’d ask what aircraft attacked you, incidentally we had, and I don’t know if it’s there.
[pause]
CB: The aircraft recognition.
GA: We had to know all of those.
CB: Yes.
GA: To know what their wingspan was.
CB: Right. That’s interesting. Yeah. So part of your ground school was aircraft recognition.
GA: Yeah.
CB: Particularly, it’s got folded there, particularly for you as gunners.
GA: Yes. Most definitely. Yeah.
CB: So -
GA: 1951 that [laughs].
CB: So here you are at the debrief. Was there a sequence or was everybody speaking ad hoc? In other words did the pilots start the debrief? How did that work on the, when you were debriefed after the sortie?
GA: I can’t remember.
CB: Ok.
GA: What I was going to say was -
[machine pause]
CB: So looking at your logbook your flying was roughly two hundred hours daylight and two hundred hours.
GA: Yeah.
CB: In the night.
GA: Or put it another way. A hundred hours daylight and a hundred hours at night on Lincolns and then the same on B29s.
CB: Which did you prefer? Day or night?
GA: Day. We always wanted to fly at about five thousand feet where it didn’t matter about being pressurised.
CB: Was pressurised uncomfortable?
GA: Yes you had the mask on all the time and I remember getting the Lincoln pilot to fly over Newport Pagnell where my house was, as low as he could. My mother swears she heard it go over the house ‘cause she was hanging the clothes out. This noisy aircraft.
[machine paused]
CB: So you started on the Lincoln and then you went to the Washington.
GA: Yeah.
CB: The B29.
GA: Yeah.
CB: How did you find that? Did you think that that was a better aircraft in terms of what it could do or -
GA: I think it was. Yes, definitely. It could fly higher. A lot higher.
CB: Because it was pressurised.
GA: Yeah. I mean twenty two thousand feet was about it for the Lincoln. Incidentally the Lincoln would maintain height on two engines. It could land on one engine. I don’t think you’d be able to do that with a B29.
CB: Oh really. And in -
GA: But you know they lost more aircraft through take-off and landing than people thought. The nearest we came we was taking, in fact how the Lincoln got in the air with a ten ton, ten ton bomb I don’t know because we used to limp off the tarmac and we were once, one engine went and the wing dipped just as we were clearing the hedge at the bottom of the runway and we took a bit of the hedge out with the wing tip. We could go like that. It hadn’t got the power with twenty pound practice bombs to get up quickly whereas the B29 like the modern aircraft of today was in the air quite quickly. Incidentally, I went to, I talk about crashing I mean we lost one aircraft while we were training at Leconfield. One of our aircraft got shot down by the Russians because it wandered over the Iron Curtain but it never got in the newspapers.
CB: Didn’t it?
GA: No.
CB: No. How did they shoot it down?
GA: We don’t know.
CB: Was it a fighter or was it ground fire is what I meant?
GA: I don’t know. All we were told, so and so had crashed and the same thing with the B29. A plane coming in you know how flat Lincoln is but there are hills and a B29 of our squadron was coming in in fog and he misread the altimeter and he ploughed into the hillside and the worst thing I ever did was with my friend, another air gunner, I said, ‘Let’s go on my motorbike and see the crash,’ and I wish I I’d never gone because all that was left was charred metal from the middle and the rear turret had gone and it had bounced along and hit, ended up in the hedge and you still had the meat in there where they’d cut the pilot, the air gunner out and the smell of that octane fuel. I could still smell it for years.
CB: What happened to the crew that was shot down over East Germany? Were they killed or -
GA: We never heard any more about it.
CB: You don’t know if they got back or not.
GA: No. Because everything were so secret in those days. I know that you know because of my draughting experience.
CB: Yeah.
GA: In that interim period of about December January the officers got to know about it and they were doing, there was a plan for navigation. I couldn’t understand it but I was converting these drawings to engineering drawings and I got special relief to go and work on that instead of flying on the aircraft for about two or three weeks.
CB: What was the, what was the purpose of the task?
GA: It was navigation. Something to do with navigation. Obviously an instrument or something.
CB: Right.
GA: It was quite complicated.
CB: Ok. Thank you. Well that’s been really interesting Glenn.
GA: Are you sure?
CB: A real insight into what happened after the war and how some of the things continued, were perpetuated but others were quite different and the more cautious approach to flying.
GA: Well I think it fills the spot particularly with 617 between the Cold War period until the V bomber came in. So all through the 50s until 1960 when National Service ended. Well we were only needed weren’t we, until that period.
CB: Yeah. Was 617 employed on special tasks for precision bombing in your time or just general bombing?
GA: The Lawrence Minot trophy which was a Bomber Command trophy every year and 617 squadron won it every year. That’s all I can say.
CB: Right. Thank you.
[machine paused]
CB: In terms of ranks. In your training you were an LAC were you? And then you became what?
GA: As soon as we went to, we got a special badge when we were on training and then we got this after our training.
CB: Your brevvy.
GA: Yeah.
CB: And what rank were you when you got your brevvy?
GA: And that, that was -
CB: Right A wing. Yeah. That went on your sleeve.
GA: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So what rank were you when you qualified as an air gunner?
GA: Sergeant. A signaller, the two air gunner and the engineer were sergeants. Sergeant air crew which meant we get extra money for flying pay you see. In fact that’s interesting. As I say I got twenty eight bob a week like everybody did when they went in. As soon as I volunteered and got accepted to go for training I got two pound fifty a week and then after you got selected for a squadron, 617, I got about four pound a week and the last six months I got seven pound a week which was beyond my wildest dreams. In fact when I went for my job back at Wipac I went to see the chief, the chief engineer and we talked about everything and I said, ‘Well what am I going to earn then?’ He said, ‘What do you want then mate?’ And I suddenly thought I’d been getting seven pound a week. I said, ‘Eight pound a week.’ He said, ‘Yes alright.’ Within three months, when I got in the drawing office I found I’d joined the union because we were at eight pound a week we were about two pound under the union rate. So I actually joined a union for a short period and when Jarman who had all these ideas for me right from the start because did I tell you that’s how we bought the house.
CB: No. Tell us.
GA: Well, I was, I’d just got married and we got half a house in Fenny Stratford at eighteen shillings a week rent and rates. It was subletted by Wipac from a landlady and I made it into quite habitable. Mind you there was an outside toilet, tin bath in the, hanging in the shed, it had a little garden at the back that I made into something special because the chap who had the upstairs he didn’t want the garden. He worked at Wipac as well but anyway having had this period of my first married life from 1954 he called me up to the office one day in 1957 and said, ‘You know I’m building a new factory at Buckingham?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well it should be open by 1960.’ He said, ‘I want you to go over there. Be one of the first to go over there to eventually charge, be in charge of one side of the factory.’ Not straightaway but you know. So he said to me, ‘Have you ever thought about buying a house?’ I thought, I didn’t say, ‘Not on your salaries,’ you know. Actually I think we’d moved with the union up to about fifteen pound a week but anyway, he sent me over, he said, ‘I’ve fixed it up. You can go over to Buckingham, see the builder Lewis Pollard, you can see the town clerk which was Tony [?],’ he’s still around, retired of course, he’ll be in his 90s. His own legal guy Martin Athay. ‘Go and see all those and they’ll sort you out with a house,’ and he was, he would put me onto eighteen pound a week in the Autumn. Buy it because a house on Highlands Road was two thousand five hundred plus three hundred pounds if you had a garage built separately. Well I came over to Buckingham and Lewis Pollard took me to Highlands Road and I don’t know whether you know it but until 1957 they never built any private houses after the war. It was all council houses. Government decree. So Highlands Road was the first housing, private housing estate built here after the war. He took me up here and there was the one next near finished the one after that was this one and was finished and lived in and the next one whose funeral I went to yesterday that was there, the one that Lewis offered me for two thousand five hundred but if I had a garage three hundred. Well in the meantime I was taking Practical Householder magazine and there was a plan for this house before the kitchen extension, before the conservatory and before the front porch extension but the rest of it, this was the kitchen, that was the lounge diner and there was an outside porch there but with the dormer windows it was my dream. It looked something beautiful. So I went in to see Lewis the following week and I said, ‘Look you can build that for two thousand five, nine hundred with the garage. This house has got the garage built in. How much can you do that for if I do all the outside decorating and all the inside decorating and you leave all the kitchen bare.’ He came up with three thousand pounds. Anyway, so I went to Wipac on the Monday and he said, ‘How did you get on?’ I told him the story I’ve told you. He said, ‘What is this house like then?’ I spread the plans out. Incidentally and the plans were three pounds fifty and he looked at it and he said –
[Phone starts ringing. Recording stops]
Dublin Core
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AAtkinsG160929
Title
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Interview with Glenn Atkins
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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01:25:42 audio recording
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Pending review
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2016-09-29
Description
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Glenn Atkins was born in Newport Pagnell and was called up for National Service in 1951. He was involved in exercises to test the defences of Europe during the Cold War. When he was released from National Service he returned to his former company where he remained until he retired.
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Royal Air Force
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Julie Williams
44 Squadron
617 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-29
Lincoln
RAF Binbrook
RAF Coningsby
RAF Scampton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/358/6094/AHayleyCA160224.2.mp3
24880b7e4d452a04df441ffcc72a2c71
Dublin Core
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Hayley, Jack
Jack Hayley
C A Hayley
Cecil A Hayley
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Collection consists of a log book, an interview and other items concerning Flight Lieutenant Cecil 'Jack' Alison Hayley DFC. Items include photographs of aircraft and people, a letter concerning his Distinguished Flying Cross and well as newspaper cuttings concerning operations, his wedding and the award of the Distinguished Flying Cross. After training he completed tours on 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern, then 170 Squadron at RAF Hemswell before going on to a bomber defence training flight flying Hurricanes and Spitfires.
This collection was donated by Jack Hayley and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Identifier
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Hayley, CA
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2016-02-25
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the, Thursday the 25th of February 2016 and I’m sitting here with John Longstaff-Ellis talking to Cecil Alison Hayley.
JCAH: No.
CB: Otherwise known as Jack and his wife Barbara about Jack’s experiences in the war but can we just start in your earliest recollections Jack?
JCAH: Yes.
CB: Of family life and -
JCAH: Yes.
CB: And how you came to join the RAF.
JCAH: Yes. Yes. Well, I was born in Caterham as I say. My father had an ironmonger’s business in the Croydon Road, Caterham it’s, ‘cause there was lower Caterham and upper Caterham. We were in the lower, lower Caterham and I was I was born over the shop, over the ironmonger’s shop. So earliest recollections I was the youngest of three boys and I was five years younger than my eldest and three and a half years younger than my, the middle one. Harold was the eldest and Leslie was the middle one. I have very few recollections of life before primary school which was at Caterham Board School they called it. It’s on Croydon Road, Caterham which I suppose I started when I was, I don’t know, five I suppose and then, well while I was there I, my interest in those early days, well when I was old enough was Scouting. I started off as a Wolf Cub and went on to Scouting but can I just I stop there.
[machine paused]
JCAH: The thing is my secondary school, ok. So if we could start again. Are you ready to start again?
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: Ok. Right. I I went to my secondary school which was Purley County School which, when I started there was near Purley but they had, had to extend the school and make a completely new building and the new school was built at Chalden and I used to cycle from Caterham up, because it was up on the hill, I had to go through Caterham on the hill and I was interested in rugby, I used to play rugby. I wasn’t very interested in cricket but I did join the school cadet corps when I was at Purley County School and I learned to play the bugle there in the band. So that took me up to the age of eighteen when I left school which was 1938, no, seventeen, that’s right. 1938. And my first job was with a small insurance company in the city and our offices were in the Royal Exchange and I was on the mezzanine floor looking out of the window right across to the Bank and Bank Square, the Mansion House and the Bank of England. It was a beautiful position to be in. Anyway, I suppose I was there until, where are we, ‘39, probably 1940, the office, oh no it was before the war they, in 1938 they obviously decided they would move out of London and we moved to Aylesbury and the offices at Aylesbury and my wife happened to be the secretary to the district manager at at the branch there at Aylesbury and she managed to fix me up with accommodation in Stoke Mandeville, Moat Farm and I was well fed there during the war. It was a lovely place to be. Anyway, we, my wife and I, her parents were farming in Weston Turville and I used to enjoy going over to the farm and taking part in the farming activities and eventually, well we got engaged so now we’re coming up, I, of course, I was eighteen when war broke and, but it wasn’t, for some reason or other it wasn’t ‘til 1941 they started taking any interest in me and my service and I had interviews and I, at that time I hadn’t any great ambition to go flying because my family history was in, in the navy and I assumed perhaps I would go in to the navy. But then they were desperate to get young, young chaps to join as air crew so I was persuaded to join the air force and my first, I had to report to the Lord’s Cricket Ground at St John’s, St John’s Wood which was the, what they called the Number 1 Air Crew Receiving Centre which was abbreviated as ACRC and in typical RAF slang became marcy tarcy [laughs]. So, yes I was probably there for probably two or three weeks getting kitted out and being introduced to RAF life and from my first part of training was Initial Training Wing at Newquay in Cornwall and there I did our usual square bashing and getting training in aircraft recognition and Morse, all these sort of things before, so I was probably there four or five months I suppose in Newquay and then yes I heard that I was being, of course by this time of course I knew I’d been selected for air crew training but then we had to go through what they called a grading school which was at Cliffe Pypard near, near Lyneham. Up on the top of the hill. A little small airfield and I think we flew Magisters there and we had twelve hours in which to go solo and if we didn’t go solo, unless there was any other particular reason, you continue pilot training then we were selected for pilot training and of course the alternative was trained as a navigator. So Cliffe Pypard. Yes. Could I just stop a minute there?
[machine paused]
JCAH: So from there we were sent to Heaton Park in Manchester which was the Air Crew Disposal, Dispersal Centre and eventually we were allocated to a convoy going out from Glasgow to take us across, across the Atlantic to Canada. We actually landed in New York and took the train up to Monkton in New Brunswick where we were held pending being sent on to our first training station. So I was there about a couple of weeks and then we took a train journey from New Brunswick across to Calgary and I think we started on the Monday and we got there on the Friday [laughs]. The only main stop we had was at Winnipeg where I think we changed trains and the local ladies were very good to us and came along with all sorts of goodies and they treated us very well and from there we went on to Calgary. I think it was the Friday we arrived and of course the steam trains then were fired by, by wood. Wood fired steam trains, and we used to wake up every morning covered in wood soot. Not a very comfortable journey. Anyway, so having arrived at Calgary we were posted to the 31 Elementary Flying Training School at De Winton where we flew Stearmans mostly. Boeing Stearmans during the day but we also flew Tiger Moths. The American, the Canadian Tiger Moth which had the luxury of a canopy above us instead of being an open cockpit and we used, we used to fly those mainly to introduce us to instrument flying but the main training was on the Stearmans so that took us from September ’42 to, yes to the end of November ‘42 when we were, I was posted to Number 38 Flying Training School at Estevan in Saskatchewan in the middle of the prairies in the middle of the winter. It was pretty harsh but it’s surprising how we coped really and of course the accommodation was all centrally heated you know. Anyway, so we were flying the Anson there. The Canadian Anson with the Jacob engines and it had the luxury of hydraulic undercarriage instead of, you know the British Anson you wound up as well. I don’t know. About eighty winds. So that was, but it’s interesting as well of course a lot of the time we were landing on snow which was very, you had very little references to judge your height and it was a good, good training. And well we did all the normal things. Cross country training of course, instrument flying as well as all our ground training in navigation. Did a lot of Morse code training, aircraft recognition, those sort of things and eventually we completed, I completed my training in April ‘43 and qualified for my wings which I was very proud of and then we were returned to Monkton to the dispersal centre at Monkton for our return journey across the Atlantic and while we were there there was, I remember this, Jimmy Edwards had been training out there and he and a few others managed to get together and produce a show for us which was good fun. Anyway, so we, I was going to say on our outward cruise we had a bit of a panic because one of the ships was torpedoed and it wasn’t ‘til after we got back that there was a news item in the new New York papers of the torpedoing of this ship, it was a cargo ship who managed to struggle into New York so that was interesting. But of course I, whilst I was at Monkton I was commissioned before I came home and so the journey home was far more luxurious in the Ile de France. It was, had been converted into a troop ship so yes we were living in luxury. A little episode, if I could go back to the outward cruise. We were in an American convoy and the sister ship of the one we were in had been, gone down with fire so there were very strict no smoking rules on deck, no below deck. You could smoke above deck and I was caught smoking below deck and my punishment was to work in the kitchen which, this was the officer’s mess and it was nice to pick all up the titbits, the luxury titbits such as oysters, fried oysters. So it wasn’t a bad punishment. Anyway, returning, the home trip was as I say very comfortable and so we, let’s see, we, the first posting was to Harrogate which was another personnel receiving centre and then on to Bournemouth for some reason or other and then we started, we went to Little Rissington which is a suburb of, of the big flying training station. No. Yes. No. That’s right we went to Little Rissington and then we were posted to a satellite of Little Rissington at Windrush and there we were flying Oxfords to get acclimatised to a different type of flying in this country as compared with Canada with the wide open spaces and roads that went either north west or east west. North, east, south and east, west. It was quite different and then of course coping with the restricted areas and so on in this country and during that time I, we did some instrument flying training at the Beam, what they called the Beam Approach Training Flight at Docking where we, they had an approach system which was pretty primitive. Anyway, we were only there oh about ten days and then I finished my training at Madly in September ‘43 and was then posted to a radio school at Madly, west of Hereford on the River Wye and there we were flying radio cadets. I was flying the Domini, the RAF version of the Rapide and the other flight was flying Proctors and single aircraft, single engine aircraft. I must say the old Rapide was very reliable and quite nice to fly. The only snag was there was no seat as such. You were just sat on a cushion with your legs stretched out in front of you which after an hour or so could be pretty, you could get a bit stiff. Anyway, it was an interesting period and we could just choose where we flew just as long as getting practice of operating in the air there, the radio equipment and I got to know the area quite well. The Black Mountains and going north to Cheshire and out that way. So that was, that took me up to March 1944 and at that stage I was about to start my operational training but a little incident. I, my wife and I had arranged to get married in November ‘43. Let’s see, ’43 perhaps and but, that’s right, I was at Madley and a week before we were getting married I was told that I was going on a course and it was they called a junior commander’s course and this was up in Inverness and I thought if any course I was going to go on I thought it was going to be an operational course but to spend, to, prior to my wedding arrangements for the sake of a stupid administrative course was, there was no way I could talk them out of it. Consequently our honeymoon arrangements went by the board and so we got married on the Saturday, yes and that Saturday night we spent in a hotel off The Strand. I think it was the Surrey Hotel if I remember rightly and most of the night was spent in the basement because of the air raid [laughs]. So that was my honeymoon night and the following day I, we had to get, I had to get on a train all the way to Inverness which in those days was it was impossible to find a seat on the train so we just had to squat on our kit in the corridor. So all in all that was a bit of a disaster. So having done that I was then posted in March ‘44 to 83 Operational Training Unit at Peplow. That’s in, in the Midlands. And there I flew the Wellington and I was there for about three months. I forget how many hours we flew but one little incident. The Wellington is infamous for its brake pressure. You had to watch your brake pressure all the time and the dispersal areas there were pans, dispersal pans and the land just dropped away from around the dispersal pan and I suddenly discovered I was out of brake pressure and I had to lurch over the side and down the slope, which I got a red endorsement which was eventually cancelled but that was an unfortunate incident. It learned me a lesson. Taught me a lesson. So Peplow [unclear] Park. Air crew. Yes. So having completed training on a Wellington I then went on to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Sandtoft which was in the Hull area. That sort of area. And I suppose we did about thirty or forty hours on the, on the Halifax and then on to the Lancaster Finishing School at Hemswell and that was October ‘44. I was there only for just over two weeks and I had my first training, first appointment to a squadron which was 625 squadron at Kelstern and I was there for nearly two months when 170 squadron was reformed. It was previously a reconnaissance squadron beginning of the war and was disbanded and was reformed at, at Kelstern and I was, we were first of all at a little place called Dunholme Lodge. It was very much a wartime station and it was right alongside, on the, from Scampton on the opposite side of the Ermine Street, the main road to the north and I suppose it was only, I don’t know, might be four miles separating us from Scampton and consequently we had to have a common circuit around both airfields and this all got a bit fraught and I think they decided it was bit too dangerous and we were, I was posted then back to Hemswell and I, well finished my training, finished my tour on 170 squadron on the 15th of April ‘45. If we could just stop there. Yes. Just -
[machine paused]
CB: We’re talking about Lancaster and Halifax so -
JCAH: Yes.
CB: How, what, what were the differences between those then Jack?
JCAH: Well I mean -
CB: And which did you like?
JCAH: The Halifax was quite a heavy aircraft to fly and quite difficult to land successfully. It was quite hard work but the Lancaster was quite different. It was so easily controlled. The controls were more positive but not, not heavy and the manoeuvrability was so much better than the Halifax and the, I suppose as far as the air crew positons it was the same, similar. It simply, you had a Perspex canopy over you as pilot and of course no heating. You just relied on winter clothing to keep warm. So, no, the experience of training, going on to Lancasters was quite remarkable really. The sheer manoeuvrability and particularly when it come to using corkscrews to avoid fighters. Giving maximum deflection all the time. But no so as far as -
CB: What about rate of climb? Was there a difference in that?
JCAH: Yes. I think probably it was better. I think, I think with the four Merlins I can’t remember what the Halifax had in the way of engines.
CB: Well the early ones had Merlins and then they went to -
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: The Bristol Mercuries. .
JCAH: Yes. Hercules.
CB: The Hercules. Yes.
JCAH: Yeah. No. I think it had a climbing and of course I suppose the maximum ceiling was around about twenty thousand feet. We were normally operating, I suppose, about eighteen, eighteen thousand feet. That sort of height. So going back, going, talking about actual incidents during my ops I suppose I’ll just of give a summary of -
CB: What was your first raid?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: What was your first raid?
JCAH: Yes. It was with another crew to introduce me to what was, what happened during a bombing raid and this was an operation on Le Havre in daylight. Yes. So 625 squadron I had, I did twelve sorties with 625 before going on to 170 squadron and I did nineteen sorties with 170 squadron. Making a total of thirty one sorties all together and total flying time during my operations was a hundred and eighty one hours. By that time I had just reached a thousand hours altogether when I finished my tour. But I suppose one particular incident comes to mind when we were over Dusseldorf and we were coned by searchlights and of course you’re a sitting duck then to all the ackack anti-aircraft fire in the area and I simply stuck the nose down and called to the engineer for full power and I shall never forgive him saying, ‘What?’ when I was wanting immediate power [laughs] and you see he was questioning what I was saying. I said, ‘Full power,’ and so we just stuck the nose and just got out of the area as quick as possible. But on return we’d no, had no injuries in the crew but the aircraft was pretty well peppered and on landing I realised that my starboard tyre had burst and that was obviously lurching down. I kept it as straight as I could for as long as I could and then I just veered off on to the grass to clear the runway for the other aircraft coming in but looking at it the next morning was, it was out of commission. That, my aircraft was TCD. Our squadron letter was TC and I, I was D-Dog. I don’t think we had a P. TCP [laughs] Anyway, I suppose in about three or four days it was back in working order and I successfully finished my tour. So -
CB: Just -
JCAH: Yes.
CB: Go back on a couple of things.
JCAH: Yes. Ok.
CB: The crews. So you crewed up.
JCAH: Oh yes.
CB: At OTU. How did that work?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: You crewed up at OTU.
JCAH: That’s right.
CB: How did that work?
JCAH: They were just, well we had, no we didn’t have an engineer I don’t think.
CB: No.
JCAH: No. No. Just pilot, navigator, signaller and I think we had one gunner. That’s right. But then going on to the heavy aircraft we were, we were seven. Pilot, flight engineer, navigator, radio operator, bomb aimer and two gunners. Mid-up and two guns. Seven. No. It’s amazing how crew selection, we were just left to mix with each other and somehow we gelled and and I I was very successful, very lucky with my crew I think. My navigator in particular. He was, he was excellent. There was one occasion when we had no aids at all from the target, I forget which target it was and we were completely on dead reckoning radar based on past information on winds and so on but he got us home safely and we managed to recognise landfall on the English coast and got in safely but no, I was, and I was glad that I was eventually awarded the DFC and he was awarded the DFC as well. That pleased me no end because he was a great cont, made a good contribution to the operation of the crew. So you just -
CB: So you got, got a crew. Sorry.
JCAH: Sorry? Yes?
CB: Yes, just, you got a crew at OTU. Normally there was six on the Wellington.
JCAH: We didn’t have a -
CB: Yeah. But some flew with four.
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: Was there a shortage of gunners and bomb aimers?
JCAH: I’m just trying to think whether we had two gunners at that stage. That I can’t quite remember. We certainly didn’t have a second pilot but then again -
CB: They were probably -
JCAH: I suppose, did we? I think we must have had a bomb aimer because we had to practice bombing.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: Yes. We must have had a bomb aimer so that was at, on the Wellington.
CB: So when you were at, when the crew selection took place who was, were they gelling on you or how -
JCAH: It’s difficult -
CB: Or had some of them already got together? What happened?
JCAH: We got chatting to one another. I mean they had no means of knowing what my performance as a pilot was like and it was all a question of trust. But as I say it worked out very well. Yeah.
CB: So when you got to the HCU you then got the, a flight engineer.
JCAH: Yes. Flight engineer.
CB: And was he allocated to you or how did that happen?
JCAH: No. I think much the same thing happened. Of course we had a crew then to decide amongst us who we liked really, or who appealed to us.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: So that made it easier so, so -
CB: How many of the crew were commissioned other than you?
JCAH: My navigator was commissioned and strangely enough my mid-upper gunner which was unusual for a gunner, to have a commissioned gunner. And the rest of them were non-commissioned.
CB: And how did the crew get on in the, in flight and -
JCAH: Yes. I think -
CB: In the evening.
JCAH: You had to avoid being too familiar on the operations and you had to be strict on your intercom identifying each other as a pilot and not by name, that sort of thing so there was no misunderstanding. But yes my, yes my radio operator, he was Australian. A young Australian but he gelled very well. In fact we had a Bridge crew on board, the radio operator, the navigator my, the mid-upper, all four of us played bridge and we always had a pack of cards with us when we were sitting around waiting for something to happen which was good fun. So -
CB: Socially? So in the time off did the crew do things together or did there -
JCAH: Oh yes.
CB: Tend to be factions?
JCAH: No. Not at all. Of course we were in separate messes obviously but we were, certainly at Dunholme Lodge, we were billeted as a crew in old nissen huts with a coke boiler in the middle and the fumes that used to come off that boiler were quite, well sulphurous put it that way and not very, but anyway, we survived that but of course our messes, we used separate messes but we used to, in the evenings we used to obviously go out to the pub together and relax.
CB: So you were married. Were any of the others married?
JCAH: My engineer I think was married. My navigator wasn’t then I don’t think. No. No. I think my engineer and I were was the only ones who were married.
CB: Where was your wife during the war?
JCAH: She was in Aylesbury and -
CB: With her parents.
JCAH: Yes. On the farm at Weston Turville. Of course you had to be careful in those days just what you said on the telephone. You couldn’t really say anything about your operational activities at all but no we kept in touch and obviously an anxious time for her. But -
CB: How did you manage to get time together?
JCAH: During the tour I think we only had one occasion when we were, had a period of two or three days leave when we could get together. But I do remember when we were on OTU my wife managed to come and join us. She stayed at a local hotel and she managed to meet my basic crew at that time but that was the only time really we got together. Yeah.
CB: You didn’t manage to get loan of a small plane to fly in to Halton.
JCAH: [laughs]. No. No.
CB: Or Westcott.
JCAH: Yes because my father in law’s farm actually bordered on to the airfield at Halton at Weston Turville and just before the war an auto Gyro crashed.
CB: Right.
JCAH: On the airfield and in their hall they had the joystick from the remains of the auto Gyro I remember. Anyway that’s all a bit irrelevant.
CB: So you finished your tour.
JCAH: Yes.
CB: So that was when?
JCAH: It was February 1944.
CB: Yes. ‘45. ’44.
JCAH: ’45.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: I beg your pardon ‘45 and then there was an extraordinary posting was on to 1687 bomber defence training flights flying Spitfires and Hurricanes if you please. Coming off Lancasters this was quite, quite a different experience but we used to do, practice fighter affiliation.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: On the squadron bombers.
CB: Where was that?
JCAH: That was back at Hemswell strangely enough. Actually yes actually they were at Scampton when I first joined them and then they went back to Hemswell and as I say we used to fly Spitfires during the day and the Hurricanes at night.
CB: Oh did you? What were they like?
JCAH: Well they were, I mean they didn’t compare with the Spitfires. The handling and manoeuvrability. It was a steady, steady old aircraft but the Spitfire was great fun to fly. So manoeuvrable. Mind you there were times when I really didn’t know what I was up to. In fact it was in 19, where are we? ’47. We had the first open day after the war. Hemswell open day and part of the programme was the three of us were doing a tail chase and supposedly bombing a target in the middle of the airfield and the cloud base was only around about a thousand feet and we, all three of us winged over and I suddenly realised I really hadn’t got enough height to pull out of this dive and this hangar was coming out on my right and I was literally [stalling all around this dive?] and I honestly thought that this was it. Anyway, when I taxied in after this flight I had about twenty yards of telegraph wire on my tail wheel which shows you how close I was to the ground.
CB: It thrilled the audience.
JCAH: Oh yes. You know. Highly delighted.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: But I never heard the result of the loss of telephone communications in the area [laughs].
CB: Yes.
JCAH: I never did hear.
CB: What was the significance of having the fighter, the Spitfire for day affiliation and the Hurricane for night?
JCAH: Well really the Spitfire with the narrow undercarriage it was quite tricky to land particularly in a crosswind. It was very, you were sort of teetering all the time whereas the Hurricane the undercarriage went outwards, that’s right and so you had a wider wheel base and they were more stable in the landing process. Apart from that, I think that was the main reason why we used to fly Hurricanes at night. But there were times. The Lancaster used to have little blue lights on the tail side of the wing tips and there were times when I thought I was chasing these two blue lights only to find I was chasing a star. Got into all sort of peculiar situations. So I wasn’t a great night fighter pilot. [laughs]
CB: How long were you there?
JCAH: Let me see. Hurricanes. ’45. Well, I have it in here. Yes. [pause] Yes I was there about eighteen months. Yeah. Yes.
CB: End of ’46.
JCAH: Yes. October ‘46 I finished my tour there.
CB: Then what?
JCAH: Well it disbanded. The unit disbanded and I I was put on to headquarters duties I think. I was, when the chaps were demobbed they had what they called a release book which gave a little history and I had to make a little summary of the person’s history but really not knowing much about them at all but I used to make up some complimentary remarks but that was the main thing I was doing there.
CB: Where was that?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: Where?
JCAH: Still at Hemswell.
CB: Right.
JCAH: As I say Hemswell took up a very big part in my RAF career at that time because then Lincolns were brought into Hemswell and I joined 83 squadron on Lincolns. The intention was they were being trained for operations in the Far East against Japan.
CB: Right.
JCAH: And of course that didn’t come off and so I finished on 83 squadron in March 1949 and it was then that I was posted to Defford. What they called the Telecommunications Flying Unit doing, flying the equipment from the Radar Research Establishment, airborne experience and that really was quite a remarkable unit because they were using aircraft which weren’t required for their original duties. Consequently while I was on the heavy flight, what did I here? So I was flying Lincolns, Yorks, a Tudor 7 and a Wayfarer. This was on the, we had a heavy flight and a light flight, you know, flight and when we had a slack period in heavy flight I used to go across to fly some of the lighter aircraft which included Meteor, Meteor 7, Mosquito, Vampire, Firefly, Canberra, Brigand and we had had some communication aircraft. Valetta and the, the Devon, the service version of the De Havilland Dove which we used for communication flying but I mean on one month I had nine different aircraft on my logbook.
CB: Amazing.
JCAH: But that -
CB: So you enjoyed that.
JCAH: Pardon?
CB: You enjoyed that.
JCAH: Well, it was, it was good fun and it was amazing you used to go across to the light flight and you’d get the handbook out and just chat with the chaps because I mean, well a Mosquito did have two pilots but I mean, the others, the Meteor and the Canberra and the Vampire had all single seat and you couldn’t get any dual training and you just had a chat with the chaps who were flying and read the pilots notes and off you went.
CB: So was the Meteor the first jet that you flew?
JCAH: It was either the Meteor or the Vampire. It looks as though, yes.
CB: And did -
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: And did you go in a training version of that for your first flight in jet?
JCAH: No. I think probably not formal training but went along with one of the other chaps who was flying it regularly. Yes that was quite an experience.
CB: Because the Meteor 7 is a T7 isn’t it?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: The Meteor 7 is a trainer. T7.
JCAH: Oh right.
CB: And –
JCAH: Yes. And, yes, and the Meteor 4 if I can remember. Yes.
CB: Was a single seater.
JCAH: Yes. So that’s the way we went on.
CB: So when did you finish that?
JCAH: Where are we? Yes in May 1952.
CB: What was your wife’s name?
JCAH: Noreen.
CB: Noreen.
JCAH: Noreen.
CB: How is that spelled? N O R E E N.
JCAH: N. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. And did she come up to stay with you then at that time? Were there quarters?
JCAH: Yes. Now we’re talking about 1947 and it was only then that we were allowed to make arrangements to live out locally. We were with our wives and families, if you had them and I found a little cottage. It was, well it was attached to a bigger, still a cottage but we were just one up and one down and this was in Kirton Lindsey which was just north of Hemswell and it was about, yes, about seven miles. I used to cycle from there to Hemswell but the extraordinary thing with this little cottage was that the downstairs floor was wooden and the bedroom was a concrete floor. It was quite extraordinary and of course we had a little scullery, a little small scullery which we used as a pantry and an old coal range which we used to cook on. So it was all rather primitive but we were so pleased to be living together and, yes it wasn’t ‘til, yes, that was Hemswell. It wasn’t until I got to Defford that we had official married quarters but being a wartime station there were just single bed accommodation and I think where we were used to be the WAAF area when WAAFs were there and as I say they were just single brick quarters but we had, I think we had two bedrooms and a kitchen and bathroom so it was comparative luxury from our original -
CB: But that was an air force -
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: That was an air force building.
JCAH: Yes. Actually at Defford the, it was a Ministry of Supply station and it was just the aircrew who were the service, RAF element. So the interesting thing was as my, as I say my grandson is in a practice in Malvern.
CB: Malvern.
JCAH: Malvern. Yes. And living in Worcester and we, it was about a couple of years ago we paid a visit to them and I said I would like to go back to the Defford area and see what’s left because the flying discontinued there. They went to, moved to Pershore but there was still they had these big aerial discs on the airfield but I discovered they’d got a little museum there because Defford during the war was a very important station developing all the radar stuff and they’ve got a little exhibition there and my grandson introduced me as being, being there just after the war and they were very interested in this and they were talking about this road, Swimming Pool Road and of course the airfield was built on the Croome Estate, the Earl of Coventry’s estate and the entrance to our mess area was one of the big arches from the estate and the road leading from the arch up to where our mess was was known as Swimming Pool Road and they couldn’t understand this. Anyway, I was able to tell them we had a fire reservoir outside the mess which we took advantage of and used it as a swimming pool and we knew it as well that’s how it got its name but I was able to tell them the origin of the name which is quite interesting. So we’ve diverted a bit.
CB: We have. But after Defford, so May ‘52 where did you go from that?
JCAH: Yes. I went, for my sins I was posted to Germany as a station adjutant at RAF Celle. This was in August ‘52 and it was a big station. We had three flying squadrons with Venoms. They had Vampires and then Venoms and three RAF regiment squadrons and various other [unclear] so it was a big station and a lot of activity of course. Not being au fait with administration it was very daunting to say the least and not only that, one of the subsidiary jobs was married, married quarters, I was responsible for married quarters and the problem of allocating quarters to people who were desperate, you know, to come back from England and get quarters and that caused all sorts of problems but fortunately I hadn’t been there long when they posted a WAAF officer who took over that. That part. But what else? Oh yes I was responsible for the station police and there were some police dogs there and that was all part of my responsibility. So really it was two and a half years but I made some very good friends there at the time. Particularly amongst the RAF regiment squadrons and two particular families I stayed with them until they died. All four of them died now. But as I say, we had, it’s surprising when you’re away from home, posted away from home you make your entertainment in the mess and we had a lot of fun with fancy dress balls and all that sort of thing and there were compensations.
CB: Now this was a former Luftwaffe station.
JCAH: Yes.
CB: So the facilities were pre-war Luftwaffe.
JCAH: Yes. The accommodation -
CB: What was that like?
JCAH: Was very good. Yes. The mess. The mess accommodation was excellent and we had, you know, properly built married quarters. Yeah. That side of it was, was excellent you know. And of course I, I’ve got a, I haven’t mentioned my, the birth of my granddaughter, sorry, my daughter Anthea. Yes we were at -
CB: When was that?
JCAH: Yes, we were at Defford when she arrived. She was originally supposed to be born at a nursing home at Upton on Severn but she was an awful mess. She was upside down and extended and they decided they couldn’t cope with her at the nursing home and I had to take her into Birmingham. This was mid-winter and we’d had a lot of snow and it had thawed and then frozen and I had as my first car was an old standard 10, pre-war standard 10 where the suspension was almost nil. My poor wife driving over this corrugated ice all the way to Birmingham was quite extraordinary. Anyway, she arrived safely on the 5th of June, sorry the 5th of January 1951 and of course I had to wait, when I went out to Germany I had to wait probably three or four months before married accommodation was available but anyway she was, I suppose she was about two. Yeah, ‘53 and we, in those days in Germany you were, you were provided with a housekeeper so, and Renata, our housekeeper she also acted as a nurse to Anthea and they got on, she loved my daughter and it meant that we could go away and leave her with her and go on trips down the Rhine and this sort of thing. So -
CB: So when did you leave Celle?
JCAH: Celle? Yes. It was, my records run out. It was in about March ‘55. Yes I had just about two and a half years out in Germany and I was then posted to Transport Command and –
CB: Where was that?
JCAH: I did a conversion training on Hastings at Dishforth and then I joined 24 squadron at Abingdon on Hastings. I suppose at the end of ‘55. Yeah. The conversion training was only about forty or fifty hours and that was the beginning of another interesting period in my flying career because as I say I was on 24 and we used to say in brackets C Commonwealth squadron because it, they posted quite a few Commonwealth people on 24 squadron and our squadron leader, he was a squadron commander was an Australian and there were various other people from the Commonwealth but most of my experience on Hastings was flying out to Australia to send, fly supplies and personnel to the Woomera guided weapons range and also to the, oh dear, [unclear] they, they were just preparing for the atom bomb going up there.
CB: Christmas Island.
JCAH: Well no. That was the H bomb. This was the first atom bomb. Actually I think they had blown up one. Well this was a big preparation and of course we spent a lot of time, flights, we used to bring supplies and personnel to, we used to fly out of Edinburgh Field, the RAF base near Adelaide and it so happened I did have some relations living in Adelaide so it was quite convenient to be able to look them up but I, we were actually there. Maralinga, that’s right, was the, where the bomb went off and I was actually there when they exploded the atom bomb. That was quite an experience and everybody, every individual had to be accounted for before they set off the bomb and we were told obviously to face away and we were told when we could turn back and see and well it was pretty hefty sound when the bomb went off but the interesting thing was all the, they sent up rockets which left tracers going in different directions to indicate the direction of what was happening to the air following the bomb and the next day, I think it was the next day or might have been the day I was, I had to fly some samples from Maralinga up to Edinburgh. What am I saying? To Darwin. A civil flight to take them back to the UK and I was told how low I could fly. I could fly over the area but it was just like the face of the moon. All arid and, but to see these white clad figures walking across there was quite remarkable and of course the radio just went berserk to some extent and I had a strange feeling of saliva drying up in my mouth. It was quite definite and whether it was the effect of the radio activity, I suppose it must have been. Anyway, that was that and then of course then the H bomb came along and we were supplying, flying supplies out to that out to Christmas Island. Yes. That, let me think. Yes I’ve got to try and recap.
CB: We’ll have a break.
JCAH: Yeah.
[machine paused]
JCAH: Early ‘57 when we were flying out to Christmas Island.
CB: Right.
JCAH: To prepare for the –
CB: You were still on Hastings then.
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: But we used to, while we were on Christmas Island we used to take flights up to Honolulu to fly supplies for the station there. It was mostly boxes of whisky [laughs] but all sorts of things we used to go up to Honolulu to keep the Christmas Island supplied which was quite a nice diversion. So, yes, by then, we started off, 24 squadron started off at Colerne and then they moved, sorry at Abingdon and then we moved to Colerne near Bath and eventually we finished up at Lyneham and by, and then of course the Britannia came along so I joined 99 squadron at Lyneham in August 1959 and started training on the Britannia. So that was 1959. Lots of interesting flights. I know we took the Cranwell cadets out to, I’ll have to see if I can find it, the equivalent, the American air force equivalent of Victors. I wish I could find it now. Anyway, that was quite interesting and we were well looked after by the American air force in, it’s on the east side of the mountains in America. And my mind is beginning to go blank.
CB: Ok.
JCAH: So well that’s all sorts of interesting flights on the Britannia.
CB: So how long were you flying the Britannia?
JCAH: Yes. Let’s have a look. [pause]. 1960 [pause] ‘61. Yes, I finished flying the Britannia in February 1962 and they wanted to make way for the young second pilots coming on to become captains so they decided the older ones would stand down and I then went to Benson on the, at the, in the operations room at Benson which would be ‘62. I’m running out of – and I was there ‘62 to ’64 and I was told I was going to Aden on a year’s unaccompanied tour and, well, I was expecting to retire within the next year or eighteen months and I said, ‘No but I’m retiring shortly.’ And I obviously wanted to do a bit of preparation before leaving the service but no they wouldn’t be moved so I had to spend a year on my own in Aden and that was at the time just before we pulled out and it was getting pretty uncomfortable out there. The bombs being dropped all over the place. In fact we had one occasion where we were in, I was at headquarters Middle East at Steamer Point and on one occasion where a bomb went off in the mess and the chap who was laying it made a mess of it and blew himself up and fortunately nobody else. It was intended to go off later on in the day. And another occasion we were entertaining, it was dining in night and this, I was sitting with some nurses, RAF nurses and this grenade landed on this, this girl’s soup plate and it didn’t go off. Oh dear. And so, but that’s the sort of life we lived out there. It was pretty uncomfortable that year. I did manage to get home, I think for a week, at one period. So that was ‘65 and then my final tour in the RAF I was at Odiham in the ops room there which was then headquarters of 38 Group which was a part of Transport Command. And I always remember watching England win the World Cup on television there while I was there and then I finally retired in 1967.
CB: From Odiham.
JCAH: From Odiham. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: And, yes, I was just wondering, I mean, I was looking around for some civil appointment and I got to hear about the CAA wanting ex RAF people as operations officers and I managed to pass an interview for that. So, well, that was ‘67 and I started off with the accident and investigation branch, in the Adelphi I remember, in London and then I was, I used to go to court cases where there were people being summoned for low flying and all this sort of thing and I used to be the operational advisor to the legal people but that was only for a short time and then I went in to the licensing department. Of course it was, let me think, yes it was air ministry I think still when I was there. Then it became the Department of Trade and Industry, no, no, became Board of Trade and then finally Department of Trade and Industry. This was the time when Heath was trying to cut down on civil service and he decided that he wanted to offload the air ministry side to another separate authority and that’s when the CAA was formed. So, yes, I was, yes it was quite interesting [flight?] licencing and I eventually chaired ICAO. You know, the International Civil Aviation Organisation was in Montreal and I was put on to a group in, at Montreal to update the licensing aspects of what they called Annexe One of the international convention and this was the, what did they call it? Anyway the licencing aircrew, licensing requirements for the various licenses. There was the commercial pilot’s licence, the air and transport licence and eventually I did chair this committee and we finally produced amendments which I never saw implemented but I gather later that they were, I heard that they were implemented. What was the other thing?
CB: So when did you retire from the, from that?
JCAH: 1984.
CB: 1984.
JCAH: ’84.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: Yes. Yes, it was. I used to get quite a few chaps from the service that I knew who were coming along and I had one chap in particular he, there was the Air Registration Board Examination to qualify to fly a particular aircraft and they had this qualifying exam and he was trying to give me past papers but they just didn’t publish them and he was one of these chaps, you know, he was trying to be clever to try the easy way out. Anyway, that was a minor incident. So I retired on my, virtually on my birthday April ‘84 and I’d been retired about four weeks and my wife died.
CB: Ah.
JCAH: Yes and obviously we’d made all sorts of plans.
CB: Oh dear.
JCAH: And of course I haven’t mentioned how I came to Wokingham. How, to live in Wokingham. It was when I’d finished my tour in Germany we decided we would put our, try and to put some roots down somewhere because my daughter was coming up for schooling and I was going in to Transport Command and be away a lot. Anyway, we went up to the Ideal Home Exhibition and saw these houses and liked the look of them and were told they were being built in Wokingham. I’d never heard of Wokingham. Anyway, we came down and had a look where they were building and the town and we liked it and so that was in 1955. December ‘55 we actually moved in. Where are we? Yes, that’s right, come back, 1955 we actually moved in and I’ve been here ever since in Wokingham but, so having, my wife having died we were living in rented accommodation at the time because we were intending to move to -
BH: I thought you’d look at me. No. I can’t remember.
JCAH: It’s silly. I know the place so well. The name is not, just not coming. I’ll think of it.
CB: Right. Around here was it?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: Was it around here?
JCAH: No. Up in the Midlands.
CB: Ok.
JCAH: Near Leicester.
CB: Ah.
JCAH: I know the place.
CB: But not in Rutland.
JCAH: Yes. In Rutland and the capital of Rutland was.
CB: Oakham.
JCAH: Oakham. Thank you very much and we’d actually put a deposit down for a house in Oakham. I wasn’t all that keen on it but my wife had become disenchanted with Wokingham and we’d had friends at Cottesmore who we used to visit regularly and of course Rutland Water had been developed then. It was all very nice in that area but in, of course my wife then died while we were still negotiating. The people we were buying from hadn’t got a house and they were trying to find a house. It suited me because I hadn’t actually retired when we, but anyway my wife having died I wasn’t going to move up there on my own and I sold the house and during that period when the prices were really escalating and it did me a good turn financially by this period while we were waiting. Anyway, I was, so I was then looking around for somewhere to live and I came down here and I didn’t know this existed and I thought well this is a nice place. It would be nice here. And I walked down the bottom of the road here and a retired clergyman who used to help us at All Saints Church, he saw me and I told him, you know, I was looking for a house and how nice it was. He invited me in. I walked back up to Wokingham and I met a lady who was my next door but one neighbour in my first house in [Frogall?] Road and she asked me how I was getting on. I said I was getting on alright but I was just looking for a house and I’d just been down to Milton Gardens and how nice it was. She said, Well I’ve just had lunch with a lady and she told me, and who lived in Milton Gardens and told me she was putting her house on the market the following Monday so I immediately got in touch with her and we settled it without agents or anything and that’s how I came to number eleven over there. So that was, where are we in dates?
BH: It was about ‘90 wasn’t it?
JCAH: Yes.
CB: Well, you retired in ‘84.
BH: I was still working –
JCAH: Well -
BH: I was still working when you -
JCAH: Yes, it was the end of ‘84 that I actually moved in.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: So I knew Barbara before through the church and she used to play tennis with my wife so we knew each other but I know we were neighbours for seven years and I used to be in the kitchen over there getting ready to go out and play golf and I used to see Barbara going, and poor girl going out to work and here I am going off to play golf. Anyway, it was, it took seven years before we, well we did one or two things together didn’t we? And went to concerts together and one thing and, well I used to have Christmas parties, I was chairman of the Residents Association and I used to have a Christmas party and Barbara always used to come over and help me clear up afterwards. It gave me a good impression anyway. So in the end -
CB: Got all the ticks.
BH: You waited until I retired -
JCAH: That’s right.
BH: Before he proposed.
JCAH: And I said, ‘This is stupid, why don’t we get together?’ And I came over here.
CB: Very good. Smashing.
JCAH: So there we are.
CB: That’s been great.
JCAH: The end of a fairy tale.
CB: Well the whole thing -
JCAH: The fairy tale ending.
CB: Worked very well didn’t it?
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: Thank you very much for that. There’s just one thing and that is fast backwards to your promotions. So you started as an SAC because you were well educated.
JCAH: Yes and I was commissioned.
CB: And then how did it go from there?
JCAH: I was commission at the end of my training when I got my wings.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: I was at Monkton. I, I, yes. I was because I remember going and buying my uniform.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: In Monkton. In the town. And then of course while I was at Defford the first station commander there I didn’t get along at all. I had a dispute about the married quarters and somebody else wanting the same one. Anyway, I wasn’t very popular there and he didn’t recommend me for a PC. And then the next chap came along and I got on very well with him and he recommended me for my permanent commission and I’d taken promotion exam and I’d taken the Staff College Qualifying Exam and did all I could and, well this would be 1951 and they decided that they’d put an age limit of thirty on appointments to permanent commission and I’d just gone over, over the thirty so that was the end of that but I was quite keen to stay on in the air force and I settled for this limited promotion one. Commission.
CB: So you were already a flight lieutenant.
JCAH: Yes. Oh yes. Yes. I finished up the war as a flight lieutenant.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: And that was confirmed. I was an acting flight lieutenant at the time.
CB: Yeah because you were acting VR.
JCAH: Yes and I was eventually confirmed and I stayed as a, as a old flight lieutenant but as I say I enjoyed my RAF career and a lot of interest.
CB: Well Jack Haley thank you very much indeed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Hayley
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-24
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:27:23 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHayleyCA160224
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Hayley was born in Caterham and worked for an insurance company before he joined the Royal Air Force and trained to be a pilot. He trained to fly in Canada and after going through an Operational Training Unit in England, he was posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern. And after completing twelve operations he joined 170 Squadron where he completed a further nineteen operations. While waiting for operations he would play bridge with other members of his crew. After his tour he was posted to 83 Squadron and served with Transport Command in Germany, Australia and Aden. He was present during the testing for the Atom bomb and also flew supplies to Christmas Island in advance of the hydrogen bomb test.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Germany
Great Britain
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
Christmas Island
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Düsseldorf
Yemen (Republic)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1938
1940
1941
1944
1945
170 Squadron
625 Squadron
83 OTU
83 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Dominie
Flying Training School
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hurricane
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
love and romance
Magister
Meteor
military living conditions
Mosquito
Nissen hut
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
Proctor
RAF Clyffe Pypard
RAF Defford
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Madley
RAF Peplow
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Windrush
RCAF Estevan
Spitfire
Stearman
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/509/8411/ADobleRG151117.1.mp3
445d6be24eaf87a7eca4d9a422544675
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Doble, Ronald George
R G Doble
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Doble, RG
Description
An account of the resource
13 items. An oral history interview with Ronald George Doble (3030256 Royal Air Force) his log book, service documents and photographs. George Doble served as a wireless operator / air gunner with 97 Squadron
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Requires
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Andrew St.Denis
Sergeant Ronald Doble – 3030256. Was born in London and initially served in the Air Training Corp, No,336 Squadron before joining the RAF aged 18, towards the end of WWII. Starting training for Radio Operator and Air Gunner, but switching to focus on Gunnery, this was on Wellington’s at Morton-in-Marsh. Completing training at No.1660 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Swinderby and then No.1653 HCU at RAF Lindholme, both in Lancaster’s the war in Europe had finished. Joining No.97 Squadron at RAF Hemswell, flying in Lincoln’s he flew as a rear gunner and took part in equipment tests such as Rebecca/Eureka, Radio Navigation equipment. After leaving the RAF Ronald entered an apprenticeship as a panel neater, building body’s for Talbots and Sunbeams at Rootes Group.
Factual ‘CV’
20 August 1945 – 9 November 1945: No 2 Air Gunnery School at RAF Dalcross – Aircraft: Wellington.
10 November 1945 - 1 November 1946: 21 Operational Training Unit at Moreton-in-Marsh – Aircraft: Unknown.
1 November 1946 – 9 November 1946: 1660 HCU at RAF Swinderby – Aircraft: Lancaster.
10 November 1946 – 26 March 1947: 1653 HCU at RAF Lindholme – Aircraft: Lancaster.
27 March 1947 – 1 July 1947: 97 Squadron at RAF Hemswell, Lincolnshire – Aircraft: Lincoln.
Biography
Born in Hammersmith, London to a working-class family, Ronald George Doble recounts his service in the RAF before leaving in 1947. Doble left school, aged thirteen, to work behind a guillotine cutting metal. Upon witnessing the bombing of London during the Second World War, Doble joined the fire watchers, tasked with dealing with the fallout of oil bombs before making the choice to join the RAF, beginning at the Air Training corps. Soon after he was sent to Grove court air crew receiving centre. Here he recalls a memory of a group of him and his new friends playing around with a mess tin which flew through the window and fall onto a flight sergeant with fifty men on parade. Doble was then sent to Yatesbury, where he was picked up as a wireless operator air gunner, undergoing a nine-month course.
Finding that there was no longer any use for his position, Doble went to Clapham, London where he took an educational course in preparation for taking the aptitude test at RAF Regiment Locking. Upon passing the test, he was posted to the Initial Training Wing at Bridgenorth. Once completing training at Bridgenorth, Doble was moved to Dalcross Air Gunnery school before proceeding to move to Moreton-in-Marsh, 21 operational training unit, then to the 1965 HCU and then finally ending up in Hemswell in Lincolnshire. However, when he and other gunners began to be de-ranked, they made the decision to leave the RAF and chose to continue an apprenticeship in Filey, making Sunbeams, Talbots, and Humbers Bodies. Within this job, Doble would get lead poisoning before being left without a job and finishing his career as a panel beater on car repairs in Haddenham.
This collection including an oral interview, with reference to stories ranging from attempting to carry a piano out of a building during a bomb attack and getting stuck and running out of oxygen whilst attempting to do a drogue firing. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/8411 There are also multiple photographs detailing the different services he was part of and the men he served with, as well as some of the aircrafts he flew. One such photograph shows Doble as well as other RAF airmen being introduced to King George VI and his family with an ‘x’ added by a fellow airman to show Doble amongst the men. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/17743 The collection includes an article about a Bomb Aimer and Navigator who refused to fly, destroying their maps in the process. Despite being allowed to fly after this event, they did so again and was ultimately charged with Lack of Moral Fibre. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/17746 Finally, Doble’s log and service and release book shows his service across his entire career as well as the aircrafts he flew in each place, something which he explores within his oral interview. Upon his release, Doble was described as an ‘extremely capable and efficient worker… of a very pleasant and cheerful nature’, and once again his interview serves to reflect the type of man he was and still is. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/17747
Amy Johnson
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: So this is the introduction to the interview that I’m having with Mr Ron Doble. My name’s Chris Brockbank and we’re at [omitted] Haddenham, and we’re going to be talking about his experiences, er, in training and, er, in life in general with the RAF and what he did afterwards and he was with 97 Squadron. So Ron, would you mind starting please with what your earliest recollections were, your family and how you came to join the RAF?
RD: Well I was born, er, in London, in Hammersmith, um, from a very working class people, my family, er, my father was a driver on the Great Western Railway and my mother was an ex— believe it or not, nun, who was kept by the nuns and ill-treated etcetera, which is something, but there you go, um, and she left or got out of it and met my father and they both got married. Then I was born and that was it. I lived in Richard’s Street, which was, um, very near the Gaumont British Studios where the film stars used to come and I used to look down there and see some of them getting out of their cars, very interesting actually. From there I, I left school, at, er, just nearly fourteen and the war had just started. I didn’t do a great deal regarding that but I joined the ATC, Air Training Corps, 336 Squadron it was, and I thoroughly enjoyed my time there [cough] beg your pardon and, um, during this time of course the war had just more or less started and, er, all we could think about was, or all I [emphasis] could think about, was to get into the RAF and do flying and be a great heroic person [laugh] and shoot down thousands of aircraft and how wonderful it would be, not realising really it would have been a nightmare in some cases, maybe not for the likes of me myself personally but for the likes of people that I know, have known and known very well, great friends. I then went to — oh dear, where did I join up in London?
CB: At Lords.
RD: Yeah. Went to Lords, had a bit of breakfast, got kitted out with the stuff and then sent from there to Grove Court [background noise] to Grove Court which was, er, Air Crew Receiving Centre and while we were there we were put to really rigorous, um, oh dear, discipline [emphasis] but being all youngsters, of course, you always had a bit of fun altogether, sort of thing, and one thing or another, and it was a great laugh in a way. In other ways it wasn’t but there you go. So what happened, one of the things that happened there, we were put into rooms next to each other, this lot in this room and us lot in this room, and we thought we would go and have a little mess around with the other lot, not anything violent or anything like that, just a laugh. So away we went and, er, somebody joined this mix-up, er, picked up a biscuit, a set of biscuits, which were three mattresses that were on the bed for you, for your sleeping, and he, he just got into this crowd of guys all messing around but within that was a mess tin and, unfortunately, the mess tin took off and went through a window, and we were all flabbergasted so we all shot to the window and looked out, low and behold, the grass and things had fallen on a, a flight sergeant with, with fifty guys on parade down below. So we thought, ‘Oh my God.’ So we went to our rooms quickly but that wasn’t not quick enough because the next second up come the flight sergeant, Chiefie we used to call him, and, um, we were all put on a charge. So that was a good start [laugh] for the start of our — whatever. Anyway we were marched in front of the, um, guy in charge of the place, group captain, and it was quick march, quick march, left right, left right. Walked in and saluted and he said, ‘Right disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful going on. This is not what we do or should do.’ So he said, ‘Therefore I’m giving you five days confined to barracks and each one of you will pay threepence halfpenny for all the damage that you’ve caused.’ So we thought, ‘Right.’ Left, right, left right and out we went, and that was the end of that. The confined to barracks was nothing really, let’s face it, because we weren’t allowed out or went on relief from there for the period of time we were there which was, er, about six weeks. [cough] What happened then was we were sent to — that’s right, Yatesbury. I was because I was picked as a wireless operator air gunner. This was a nine month course, um, which was to take me nearly to the end of the war. But anyway, what happened then was we all, well not all of us, part of us went off to Yatesbury. We did a radio course and learnt the Morse code and things and then we were suddenly told that they didn’t want radio wireless operators anymore. So that curtailed my training there and we were sent back, typical business, but sent back to Scarborough which was another receiving centre for aircrew. And while we were there the powers that be thought, ‘Right we’ll give them something to do.’ So they put us on a so-called aptitude test and this aptitude test was to determine whether you were fit and able to be aircrew or other things, OK? So away we went. We had to march so far, run so far, swim. Swimming, by the way, um, I should always remember being in the little place where you changed and then waiting to see whether they gave you a slip, and the slip was like a little loin cloth to cover your vital parts up but the flight sergeant came along and said, ‘What the hell are you waiting here for some of you guys.’ And we said, ‘Well, where’s the slip? He said, ‘No bloody slip here.’ He said, ‘You get in that water.’ He said, ‘And the swimmers will help the non-swimmers.’ So we all jumped in and did our bit and then got out [cleared throat]. We had various, various things, mental things as well. One of them that really struck me was the fact that put in front of you was, was a box, in the box was squares of wood, painted on top was half black and half white and you had so many seconds to turn these things round to see how many you could do, and what surprised me quite a bit was that some of the guys turned them round completely so at the end of it there was hardly any score, which was amazing really. Anyway, that went on and then we were told, ‘Right, you’ve done that. You’re going to Locking, RAF Regiment place, Locking.’ We got there and we were kitted out with army stuff and boots and gaiters and given, um, a rifle — and, er, didn’t know what to do with it but, um, anyway while we were there we were put to different things such as crawling through tunnels [background noise] and one thing or another. So we got through that and then posted on the — at Scarborough posted on a notice board would be exactly what you, your aptitude made of what you were capable of. But I must stress that when you joined up you knew what you were going to be, or supposed to be, if you passed the test, but with this thing you went to it and it was just luck of the draw, that’s all I can say. Because some of us got through and much to my amazement, I was really chuffed, I got through as an air gunner, fine, three-month’s course, yeah? So — but some of them didn’t get thorough, didn’t reach these — full [?] marks so they were designated, believe it or not — don’t forget that we were all volunteers — they were designated to be Paratroops, um, down the coal mines or in the Army and then there was a big clear out then. And then we were posted to ITW, Initial Training Wing, at Bridgenorth.
CB: Right, we’ll stop there just for a mo. [interview stopped at 0:13:42:9 and restarted 0:13:45:07]
RD: Before we went to ITW, sorry I’m getting a bit mixed we were sent to [ cough] Clapham, in London, Wandsworth and we were put on an educational course [slight laugh] and we went to the — we were stationed at Victoria Rise, which was a, a block of, um, rooms on the hill, and we were marched from there to the tram and the tram took us down to Wandsworth College and we went in the College and we’d do four or five hours learning different things, which was, which was quite good actually and, of course, big head here put his foot in it again because on, on the desk [cough] beg your pardon, was a, a pressure thing, what do you call it? A U-tube and he was showing us the way you, you varied the pressure. So big head here thought, ‘Oh well, I’ll have a go at that.’ So instead of blowing carefully I went there and went like that and the whole lot of mercury, well part of it, shot out the top of this tube and went all over the place and mercury is like little ball bearings. So we got all the lads to go round and pick up all these little ball bearings and put it back in the tube before the teacher come back. We thought it was funny but I didn’t at the time. Just something, one of the bloody stupid things I normally did. So there we go. So what happened then was we were there and we done that and then we were going on to ITW but, a big but, during this time we were sitting there and all of a sudden this aircraft, er, came over and it was quite low and quite noisy. And we thought, ‘Oh good God, I wonder what that is.’ And the thing cut out and went down and we were on the hill and then we just saw a big bang and, er, that was the V1. So the V1 thing started coming over then. What happened then was the course was abandoned at the college, as normal, and we were given, four of us, each, each of us four, four lads were given a truck with a driver and we were told to go to these bomb sites and help out with rescuing people or helping in general. Well, regarding rescuing people that was ridiculous really. I mean, you’re walking over, er, debris and stuff and, er, I know it sounds awful but it [background noise] probably did more damage than [unclear] anyway we were taking off of that and told us that, um, we’ll be responsible for all valuables and moveable objects in these bombed out buildings, er, and one instance was whilst we went to a four storey building, we looked around for valuables, we took those and I must impress none of these guys, none of us kept one penny of anything that we found but [cough] it was handed over to the van driver so, OK, and he had to report back and hand that in, um, anyway we got to the — one of the points was we got to the top story of this four [cough] four-storey building and there was a grand piano there. So we were told we’d have to move the grand piano and the only way you could move the grand piano was to put it out of the shattered window. There was no frame or anything and lower it down on straps. Well, the guy that was with us was supposed to have been a removal van, man so we put the strap around. It was one strap and a couple of ropes and we, we managed to lift this piano up and put it on the ledge of the window [cough] and then the guy said, ‘Right give it a little push and then we’ll lower it down.’ So we gave it a little push and, low and behold, the piano just disappeared down. The ropes went through our hands, we couldn’t hold it, and it hit the bottom of this place in the area and made a lovely booming sound but that was the end of thing. So really and truly we didn’t achieve a lot there. But we did, we did help, I must admit we did help. So then we were, we were went to ITW at Bridgenorth, Initial training Wing Bridgenorth, and then we did our ITW there and then from there I went on to Dalcross I think, which is now Inverness.
CB: Airport.
RD: Dalcross, um, I forget the name of the — similar[?] something — Air Gunnery School and that was really something, that really was something, but by now of course the war was getting very close to the end. So got in these Wellingtons and, er, it is most odd but I got a picture up there, you can see later, you probably know anyway they were just, er, lattice work and fabric [cough] but very very strong, very reliable, anyway I got in that, my first time in there I was given a suit and, er, all the bits and pieces. And away we went and we had to do drogue firing, and, er, air to sea firing and also, er, camera work with Spitfires and Hurricanes, um, that’s right, yep. Spitfires and Hurricanes, um, that’s right, yep. Well, this course was to me the, the height of what I had to achieve because I didn’t want to fail this. This is what from a little lad in the ATC up till then I had to get in that Lanc or whatever and do, um, some work. So anyway the end of that came and I did very well, um, and they made a new idea of, of drogue firing which was called a quarter cross under. And, amazingly enough, I got a hundred and sixteen hits out of six hundred rounds and another one I got what? Thirty-two hits I think. It’s in the logbook. And when I got — passed all the tests and I did very well actually and, er, the guy handing out the wings congratulated me on my scoring, sort of thing, so I was quite chuffed about that. From there we went to Moreton-in-Marsh which was 21 Operational Training Unit and again on Wellingtons but these were really doing the job, flying around and God knows what. So I’d only done about twenty odd hours at Dalcross and nothing high altitude so when I got there I was put amongst a pool of half a dozen guys and there was a chap there called Squadron Leader Corbesley [?] and, and his crew [cough] and they were well into their course but their gunner was sick with appendicitis so, low and behold, out come the boss of the gunnery section and said, ‘Right Doble, you done well on the final test you can do well on this I’m sure.’ So he put me in the crew with Pete Corbesley, um, oh I forget their names now, bless them. The bomb aimer Ted Heywood [?]— anyway, so away we went. Now this flight was a high altitude bombing flight and also a night-time drogue firing. Right, so I’ve got all the kit on and everything and I’d never done this before. It was a four hour or five hour trip [cough] oxygen and all the rest of it. So in the turret I got, which was good. I managed to get in that. That was OK, lovely, and away we went on our, on our, on our, um, job. We did the bombing and all the rest of it and then I had to do the drogue firing. Now, nobody had told me much about what to do because I’d missed that part of the course or I’d been shoved in halfway through. What I had to do was to get out the turret, put the little emergency bottle on, put the drogue down the flare chute and let it out on a winch, and then get back in and look for the drogue, which was — had a little light inside, fire at it when I’m finished, come back, wheel it in and do it. Right, I went out, I got in the turret, looked and I thought, ‘That’s funny, where’s the drogue?’ And then I saw this thing doing a complete circle behind the aircraft [slight laugh] and the drogue had gone out there and hadn’t streamed so it was just like a parcel. And when I looked and this thing’s whirling round I thought, ‘My God.’ All I could think was whether it would cut the tail off. Obviously it couldn’t but I thought, ‘Oh gee whiz,’ so and the skipper said, ‘You OK gunner?’ I said, ‘Yeah I’m just starting now.’ So I fired a few rounds and all the rest of it and then I quickly got out, put the bottle on and had to wind this thing back. So I wound it back and then I had a nice silk scarf and that got tangled up winding in the wings. So I had to wind it back a bit and get the scarf out and fiddling about and then suddenly I felt a bit woozy but anyway I managed to get the drogue in, undid it and — yeah and then I thought, ‘Right I’ll get back in now.’ But I felt a bit odd. So as I tried to move I couldn’t really move properly and I looked down and this little bottle I think had, I think they had about fifteen minutes, I’m not sure but I think they had, um, and it had run out. So there so there I was stuck halfway down at the end of this dark tunnel, um, gasping for breath and there are things on the side where you can get it in but you can’t really see them. And lucky enough [clears throat] the navigator pulled his curtain back and had a look and I said, er, you know, ‘Can you help me, you know?’ Sort of thing. So he come down and looked and said, ‘Oh yeah,’ and plugged it in and said then I was OK. I got back in the turret and away we went. We did the job and got back and I thought, ‘My goodness me. That was the [clock chimes] first long range high altitude trip and it was a nightmare.’ [laugh] All because of my own fault possibly but there you go. That went on there and there was another a bit of a thing. The Wellies were getting a bit old by now and, um, one little thing was in the turret I felt a bit of wet and God knows what and when I looked the hydraulic pipe had broken and saturated me with hydraulic oil. So that was one thing and, um, the next thing was, on another trip we did, um, I was in the turret and a big cloud of smoke and stuff come up through the turret and I thought, ‘Oh my God. It’s going to catch alight.’ [clock chimes] So I quickly got out the turret and I said to the skipper, ‘Skipper, it looks as if the turret’s on fire.’ [slight laugh] I mean, I know it sounds funny but it’s not funny, it’s not [slight laugh]. So he said, ‘Well is there any flames? I said, ‘No, no, no there’s no flames.’ So he said, ‘Right, well stand by it and see what happens.’ And then I said, ‘Oh, it’s alright now.’ The smoke had disappeared. So he said, ‘Oh good.’ He said, ‘OK then. Carry on. Get back in your turret.’ Well, I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I’m not getting back in there.’ I said, ‘Because if it’s on fire this thing might fall off or something.’ I said, ‘No, I’ve had enough of that’. So he said, ‘Yeah, OK gunner come up front.’ So I went up front and it was a twin flying thing, a Wellington with twin controls, and I sat in there in the — this seat and the skipper was there and [cough] I finished, finished that. He let me fly the thing but I couldn’t ruddy fly it, you know. I sat there and he said, ‘OK, you take over governor and see how you get on.’ So it was night time so I didn’t know what to do. I thought, ‘Well if I hold the stick still then the thing just goes.’ So I held the stick still and then all of a sudden all the dials started going round. Well my little brain said, ‘Oh blow me, I’m over speeding, there’s too much power.’ You know, so I leant forward to get the throttles and he said, ‘What are you doing?’ I said, ‘Well I’m throttling back.’ ‘Don’t do that.’ He said [cough], ‘Look out there.’ He said, ‘And you’ll see the horizon, even though it’s dark.’ He said, ‘Where’s the horizon?’ And of course the horizon was up there [unclear] long way down so he, he sorted that out and we landed and that was the end of that. OK. [background noise]
CB: Yeah, you only had yourself to look after.
RD: Absolutely, you know, it was your responsibility. If something happened well that’s it. It was just bad luck. But getting back to my opinion about it all was the fact that — I know for a fact that lots of these aircraft were, were, um, destroyed. I mean, Nuremburg I think was one and another one, Leipzig, um, where you got ninety-five aircraft knocked down in one night.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Um, that is one of the reasons why we went on all this business to start of my career, if you can call it that. They wanted air gunners. Oh and something I missed out by the way —
CB: That’s OK.
RD: I’m sorry about that.
CB: No don’t worry. We can pick it up. What, what did you miss out?
RD: Well, what happened was, when we were at St Johns Wood, at the ACRC, um, they called for volunteers but air gunners. Now we were all different grades. Well, obviously I went down ‘cause I wanted to be an air gunner and so, being stupid, [noise] it’s only a three month course or something like that and I’ll be on operations, um, so we all queued up and along came the groupie [?] and he talked to some and talked to some and he come to me and he said, ‘How old are you son?’ I said, ‘Eighteen Sir.’ He said, ‘Well bugger off!’ And, er, I went with a few of the others, you know. So he was quite human, put it that way. I mean I was only a kid wasn’t I? Let’s face it. We were all kids, high spirited and, er, mind you we learnt quick, well I [emphasis] didn’t. The people that did these ops, hundreds of ops and things, tours, they were incredible people. The other thing that strikes me as well — can I go on? Was the fact that, as you know, if you didn’t do the op — [background noise]
CB: Now here’s your tea Ron —
RD: Yes, thank you very much.
CB: So some of these people —
RD: [noise] Shall I carry on? So, some of these people, as you know, I’ve known an instance of a guy who done thirty ops and he was told he’d got to do an extra five, um, you know, before he was taken out and he said, ‘I’m not doing it.’ He said, ‘ I’ve had enough. I’ve done my bit and that’s it.’ And that’s where this business of LMF comes in and they were sent to Eastchurch, where the LMF place was, and they were demoted, AC2s, and, er, I don’t know, just, used as spare parts I suppose. But it was awful really, absolutely terrible, um, and quite a few, quite a few did that. I don’t know and that’s, that’s what gets me [emphasis]. If I’d done quite a few ops, how would I have felt? I don’t know now. I would love to have known but you don’t know. But there you go. Anyway, where were we? Oh yeah, OTU. So we finished up at OTU. My pilot, by the way, was a squadron leader. He was quite important and he was a Spitfire photo reconnaissance pilot originally and he was on a high flying operation over Italy at the time and he was, er, shot down and he was captured by the Italians and put in a prisoner camp. But the, the Italians surrendered and left the Germans there but when this happened he got away and he was transported back to England, believe it or not, and that’s when he came onto the OTU for multi-engined aircraft to go back, back to that and he was getting on a bit as well, so that’s it. So from there we went to 1653 HCU. I can’t quite remember.
CB: At North Luffenham?
RD: It was Lindholme, Lind— I don’t know. Some of them we were — one of them in there in my book we were sent to the Heavy Conversion Unit there and then moved halfway through to another operational place, airfield.
CB: OK. 1653 was North Luffenham.
RD: Yeah, was it? Oh well, I might have it wrong, I might even have it wrong, it was North Luffenham. But anyway, from there we went to, um, a squadron, that’s it, in Lincolnshire.
CB: Just before we get on to that could you just explain what you please did at the HCU?
RD: Oh, yeah, well what we did at — sorry. Obviously — what happened at the Conversion Unit was, you come from Wellingtons, which were rather a sparse looking aircraft, but ground [?] crew very reliable, to the Lanc which got a bit more room, er, the turrets weren’t much better than the old, er, Wellington, um, and what we did there was, um, touch and go and all the rest of it. And then, um, high flying and bombing etcetera and when we finished that we went on to squadron, I think it was — yeah, the squadron I was at was Hemswell in Lincolnshire. Hemswell, that’s right and when I got there I my pilot [unclear] and the crew but he had a heart problem, poor old boy, and, er, he was demoted from squadron— from wing commander down to squadron leader, sorry, and, er, we never saw him again. So I was left again without a crew. So again I’m the spare Charlie. So we all sat in the gunnery place and then along pops the gunnery leader and said, ‘Right, Doble, you’re flying with so and so. Right, Doble, you’re flying with so and so.’ And I flew away with Squadron Leader Bretherton. I think this is a well-known name, I’m not sure, but he was a nice guy. [clears throat] But all this time, all this time, things are moving regarding the air crew itself. Um, a — and I can understand it really, with the sergeant ground crew were sharing their mess with youngsters, sergeants, um, with nothing like their service or whatever. And it wasn’t, wasn’t a very happy scene at that time and they were obviously looked at, it was looked into and the powers that be said, ‘Well, as from — whatever date it was — you won’t be sergeants any more, you’ll be gunners in grades. There’ll be Gunner 2 and Gunner 1 and Master Gunner and your rank would not be there. It will be there but it will be a crown with, um, G2, G1 or Master, Master Gunner.’ And that was equivalent to sergeant, flight sergeant and warrant officer. The war had ended and I still hadn’t got into it and that was — that did it for me as far as I was concerned [cough]. I was pushed from pillar to post, didn’t do a great deal of flying and I got a bit fed up. So I thought, ‘Right I’m going to leave.’ So I left. We all got together actually and said we were fed up with this business and, I don’t know, about twenty of us decided we’d leave the RAF and — oh sorry, during this time the thing that came out was you could serve three years or five years if you wanted to, early on, and we had all signed up for three years and you were given fifty pounds a year for the three years, for a five — no, for the three years, that’s right. So we signed up, fine. Sorry, this is before things happened, sorry, before the squadron. Sorry about that. So we’d all signed up so what happened when we got to Hemswell, the war had ended, we were messing around and we all decided then — they’d de-ranked us and we were fed up with it. So we thought, ‘Right what we’ll do we’ll leave.’ And there was a clause in the thing that you signed that said if you had an apprenticeship, um, you could say that you want to continue with your apprenticeship and you’d be let off the signing up [cough] so about twenty-five of us turned up outside the office and we all marched in one by one into the boss and we all said, ‘We want to continue with our apprenticeship serg.’ And there was no messing about. It was, ‘OK that’s it, OK that’s it.’ And that was the end of it. I was sent to Filey, near Scarborough, kitted out with my suit and trilby hat and stuff and, er, released from the RAF. And then I came home and I was fed up really, I really was and, um, the other thing was coming back into Civvy Street was most strange because I was only a kid when I went in and I’d lived with loads of people and then suddenly bumph you’re out and you were on your own. And living in London there wasn’t much going on there as far as I was concerned and money was tight. So, um, that’s what we did.
CB: Where was your apprenticeship? Where was your apprenticeship?
RD: Oh sorry, yeah, that was at Rootes, Rootes Group in Acton, and we were making Sunbeams, Talbots and, um, Humbers bodies and during this time I was there, of course, I was working on all these things. I was a panel beater. And, er, there was lots of lead used on these old bodies. They don’t use it now, but what it was was when they were assembled they were hand assembled, so there was no real strict conforming, so when they came off the body with the doors the doors wouldn’t fit. The body was all weird. So it all had to be jacked out and messed about and then the joints were, were spot-welded, so that had to be covered with lead and I got the job of, amongst other guys, finishing lead so I did that and, um, got lead poisoning. So what happened then was my teeth started feeling awful and my gums — and I couldn’t at a piece of bread. So I went to the hospital and they said, ‘Well there’s only one thing for it. We’ll have to take all your teeth out.’ So they took all my teeth out and by then Rootes, Rootes Group had shut down their production on Talbots and we were out of a job but my union [emphasis] had taken up the lead poising business because there were others obviously. There were some that were really bad. They could hardly walk with this business. It got into their bones. So, um, that was it and then what happened then was I got a letter from the union with a cheque and the cheque was for a hundred pounds which I suppose nowadays would be — what, a thousand? And that was it, in settlement of my claim but obviously some of the old boys never made it I don’t — anyway that was it. So we left that. What did I do then? [cough] Um, oh that’s right, I took up motor cycling. I mean, that was good. My little bike was passing cars on the road and the rest of it. So I took up motor cycling. I met my dear wife and she used to sit on the back and terrified but she liked it. But we had good fun and I met lots of people and I, I got a job, er, as a panel beater on car repairs in Haddenham, where we are now, across on the estate, industrial estate, and I did that until I retired. And then when I retired I took up the Air Crew Association and I met some lovely people. Ah they were great guys. They are now [emphasis]. Look at, look at my mate here, you know. They are, they’re so helpful and lovely, all of them. And that’s what I done and I became the welfare officer. At one time we’d left [unclear] when I was squadron bomb aimer and, er, we used to go round all the guys and cheer them up or have a chat, exactly, more or less like you guys are doing really, all voluntary, but well done and absolutely loved doing it. And then, er, as time went on and I gave that up. I used to organise lots of trips, didn’t I? And one of the trips I, I managed to get was I wrote to, um, the Mem— Memorial Flight, Lincoln, and they wrote back and said, ‘Yeah, come up and we’ll give you a flight.’ So I went up with two of my mates [cough] I think that’s [unclear] there and, low and behold, and we got a trip in a Lancaster, which was quite nice. What else did we do?
CB: I’m going to stop it there because your drink is —
RD: Oh yeah —
CB: [background noise] Now after refreshments we’re just picking up on a few things now. So Ron, er, it’s difficult to understand when you haven’t experienced it what it was like in gunnery training. What was the first thing they did to teach you how to shoot from an aircraft?
RD: Right, so what they did was, um, you first go on the rifle range, obviously, at the gunnery school and then you would go to a turret, um, which was fired into the butts and then you sat in that and, er, you operated it and you fired it and that was fine. Then you were taught, um, the amount of deflection you gave to each aircraft, so you had to learn — yeah, really — I still — you had to learn the wing span of the aircraft. So you had to identify the aircraft. If it’s an ME109 — I forget now, I’ve got it somewhere, it’s thirty-odd feet, and then you had to, um, in your mind, give a little bit of leeway or whatever there and then the other thing was — it was silly really, in my opinion, but I’m, I’m probably wrong, but all the training was done by what they called curve pursuit. That’s what they called it. It’s in the book somewhere.
CB: And what did that mean?
RD: Curve pursuit — it meant you fly here and the aircraft would come here, the Spitfire or Hurricane or whatever, and supposedly a German aircraft, and it would come round and then it would —
CB: In a curve.
RD: Start firing and then break down or break down that way. So you had to give your deflection and it would be — I forget now, um, anyway you had to gradually bring it in to the, to the dock and the dock would be when that’s right astern.
CB: OK.
RD: But the attacking aircraft would never get into that positon because they come along that like and then they dived down and away. They wouldn’t make a dead, a dead shot.
CB: OK but if I can just ask you another question there though because these are technical phrases really? So what do you mean by deflection?
RD: Well deflection is when the bullet leaves the gun you got — it’s got to go from there to the aircraft and also the aircraft is moving at a speed so you’ve got to fire —
CB: Ahead of it.
RD: In front of the aircraft all the time and gradually decreasing it, you get what I mean? There’s the sight there. It starts off there, um, and you’re gradually decreasing the, the deflection until its zero right behind you.
CB: Cause as it gets close —
RD: But you get —
CB: Yes but the further away it is the greater the deflection because the bullet has to go further.
RD: That’s right and then the bullets wouldn’t strike anyway really. The proper, proper range, where you can do damage really was two hundred yards but you opened fire at six hundred yards.
CB: Rihgt, OK. And how many rounds were there in — for each gun?
RD: Oh, there were hundreds. There used to be in the old aircraft there used to be a can and they’d fill it up but these aircraft, the Wellie as well, they found there was not enough bullets so in the aircraft hallway up there’s a big, um, storage thing —
CB: A drum.
RD: A steel box, steel box, and they’re laid like that, flexible links [cough] and they’d go down this chute onto the power, power roller sort of thing, right, that drags them along and it would go along there, quite a good, a nice job, under the turret —
CB: This is the rear turret?
RD: Yep. And then to the guns so you’d have one, two, three, four, four of each, and once you’d put them in the breach and locked it down then, when you fired, the strength of the round going in pulled the bullets along so, you know, they just kept feeding in, sort of thing.
CB: Yeah, OK.
RD: [cough] Very uncomfortable, um, and the controls were like a motorbike controls, um, left, right, up, down and triggers. No heating, um, but they did have one plug which would be for an electric suit and if you were lucky enough you got an electric suit. They did have them but they were a bit troublesome. But anyway, on this particular night, I had an electric suit and we did a high, high trip and it was absolutely freezing cold, um, your eyes ice up and you got to watch the oxygen because, er, your spittle sort of goes in the oxygen tube and then it ices up, so you got to make sure it’s clear by cracking it, you know, so you can breathe. How many people passed out or whatever I don’t know but that’s what you had to do, um, what else was there?
CB: So the gunsight itself, what is like that?
RD: Oh yeah, it was the old-fashioned one —
CB: Was a circle, was it?
RD: It was just a little round thing like that with a hood, that’s all, with a sight that’s projected by light at the bottom, know what I mean?
CB: So there was spot in the middle of it, was there?
RD: A dot in the middle.
CB: Yeah, a dot.
RD: And a circle.
CB: Right and —
RD: And when the aircraft got close, um, you got it right on the outside and you gradually decreased it. It was all luck of the draw really. And then — oh, yes, that’s right, the electric suit — so this one — another drama — I plugged in the suit and, er, when you’re high up you tend to sweat a little bit, believe it or not, just on the back of the neck and things and, of course, this bloody suit when I moved my neck like that it was going [buzzing sound] it was sending a small charge through. Oh dear and this part here was beautifully warm, really, really, really warm. This was there so I had to keep turning it off and get freezing cold, turn it on and get it warm and everything. Anyway what happened when I got back I complained, took it off, and low and behold, my jumper had — a big polo neck thing had a ruddy big hole in it [laugh] and it went through that and it went onto my battle dress [laugh]. It didn’t burn my skin but what was happening it was shorting out there [cough] and burning my clothes [laugh]. That was another saga and that was it.
CB: You were lucky not to get fried.
RD: Well yeah [laugh] but it was, it was so damn cold. It really, really was.
CB: So what temperature would it have been outside?
RD: Jesus, I don’t know, I don’t know, minus twenty?
JL: Probably more than that, depends what height you were at.
CB: More likely to be minus forty.
RD: Forty yes, you know, that is —
CB: But very cold anyway.
RD: That’s bloody cold. But one plane I flew in at the Conversion Unit had been an ex-squadron Lancaster, it’s time had expired or whatever, and it been sent to the Conversion Unit and I saw pictures of this as well, it did happen. The visibly with perspex and the turret visibly really is very limited because the guns were there, the sight’s there, and you’ve got panels, so what they did they cut the hole, um, glass area off —
CB: The back.
RD: So yeah. So when I got in this thing you were literally sat there with nothing, just obviously the guns and stuff, but, um, cor that must have been bloody cold but they did it. Thing is they had to do it, didn’t they? Because, you know, they were losing aircraft left, right and centre. And the other thing is, the silly thing that I think is, um, quite a while before, um, these ops become more frequent, um, they were losing aircraft. They couldn’t understand it. What was happening, as you all know now probably, was the fact that they had these Messerschmitt would, would up and firing cannon at an angle. Well, you’re sitting here and you can’t see down there, and these things used to come along like that and just blast the old cannon into the aircraft. And that’s it, you — well they’d always put it into the wing, not to the fuselage, because with the bomb load they could kill theirselves — put it into the wing, engine caught fire and that’s it. They knew about this but the thing was to put a turret in — the first Lancaster, the very very first Lancaster built — I don’t know whether you know this — but there was an under turret. But the powers that be, they were on about bomb load, so they took the turret out and made more space for a bomb bay [cough] so they were coming underneath there and doing that. So, um, one squadron, I think it was 77, a Halifax Squadron, um, they cut a hole and put a .5 drill on the mounting, um, to make sure that they could see what was going on underneath but I don’t think that was very good. But that was where most of the casualties were, underneath, firing, not direct, not this silly curve pursuit thing. They wouldn’t do that, that was daft. Then the Lanc, er, the Lincoln was a stretched Lanc really, very nice, different, a little bit of comfort and in the turret totally different. There were 2.5s [cough] pardon, two half inch Browning and, er, a little desk. It was amazing really. You could put your hands out and a single column which fired by a button on top and you could do all this and that would do all that instead of doing all this and the sight was, um, what they called a gyro-sight. It was on the front — was — it had ME109, FW190, Heinkel 111 and the idea was you identified the aircraft you turned this thing round to whatever aircraft you identified, which would feed into this system, the wing span, and the sight itself would be, I think — let me think, yeah, diamonds, yeah, you understand?
CB: Yep.
RD: Little white diamonds, one in the middle, and when you moved the turret these diamonds in this screen would, would — were black. You know what I mean? You know, you would start off there, they were black, and when you come astern it would — and that was the gyro-sight, which is quite successful really, but how many were shot down like that I don’t know. It was quite a nice sight and the heating was incredible, there was heating as well, um, quite comfortable actually, very good [cough].
CB: OK. Just going back to gunnery school, how did they teach you to do deflection shooting before you got in the turret?
RD: Well — no —
CB: Clay pigeon?
RD: Yeah.
CB: So how much of that did you do?
RD: That’s it.
CB: How much of that did you do?
RD: It was quite a bit and you know it’s the usual thing you’d start behind there so the clay went out like that. You had to deflect, you know, because the thing’s dropping isn’t it? Fire and then you go on the quarter which is again, er, more or less, a detraction and then on the beam, which would be, um, full [?] deflection and then on the spar [?], which would be going the other way, you do less. It’s quite — you know, it was fairly easy because you didn’t sight it. Well people must know, you just covered the clay, you know what I mean? And — but you had to follow on and that was the thing.
CB: It was to [unclear]
RD: So many, you know, so many would sight it up and stop and pull the trigger and, of course, it was too late but it was the flow. That’s it.
CB: And that, that taught you the importance of flow?
RD: Yeah. So that was it.
CB: And fast forward when you went to 97 Squadron.
RD: Sorry?
CB: You went to 97 Squadron. Did you — so was the war in Europe over by then?
RD: Yeah. We were called the —
CB: The Tiger Squadron.
RD: Tiger Force.
CB: Tiger Force.
RD: But of course that fell through, didn’t it? I think, I think it was a good thing too because the Lincoln wasn’t, wasn’t sorted for that sort of thing. You know, um, what the [unclear] forces were doing — they were doing — what two or three thousand miles, fifteen hundred miles, you know? And the old Lanc — well, it, it was alright. And of course what the fuel you put on then it lessened the bomb load and that’s why they did away with this under-turret and why didn’t fit one. They knew what was going on. I know for a fact. I‘ve seen photos of the Lanc wing with bullet holes in it and they put rods through and it shows you that the, the cannon shells were going in at an angle underneath the aircraft.
CB: Did they, um, tell you about that?
RD: No.
CB: What do you understand about scarecrow?
RD: Yes, well that didn’t take place. I’m sorry, it didn’t take place, in my [emphasis] opinion. I’ve spoken to many people and seen different things [clock chimes] and, er, no they were flames, explosives. They’d been hit in the bomb bay and, er, just — but they thought they were scarecrows, big, big, big guns firing scary things up them and big explosions, you know. But that’s in my opinion. I mean, I’m just saying.
CB: There was, there were lots of different situations in, obviously, in the war but how did you get on with the people who joined up with you and did you keep in touch with them for a period?
RD: Yeah, I kept in touch. I’ve got a photo there, see. Yeah, I had great friends. Fred Davies, he was a Welshman, he was a nice guy. Yeah, there was no, no animosity, nothing, right? None whatsoever, in, in my lot, put it that way. [clock chimes]
CB: The crew went together well?
RD: No animosity or anything. Really lovely. [clock chimes]
CB: And as far as mates were concerned, how many of those did you lose on the way?
RD: Well, I lost two, that’s right, yeah, two gunners, well two crews and that was the course at OTU.
CB: What happened to them?
RD: [clears throat] Well one of them was coming into land on the runway and at night. [clock striking] This was the thing, at night, and, er, it landed short and went in the forest. I’ve got some pictures of that somewhere and, er, smashed a tree [?] and that was it. And the other one was a friend of mine and Sandy and I go to Botley because that’s where they’re buried. And this crew — they were nice. There was Robin, Robbie I called him. He was rear gunner and there was the navigator. The pilot was called Ferdinando and they also had on board instructors so I should think there was probably on board five —eight people. And what it was, we, we, were on the way back to the aerodrome at Morton and a big weather front came in and we were told — it said by radio, you know, watch it there’s a bit dodgy weather and we managed, believe it or not, got in fine. We landed, perhaps because we’d got a good pilot, Pete, you know, he’d done it before. And while we were standing there waiting for the truck to come along and load our stuff in, in the distance on the hill — it was only six hundred foot high, apparently, they found out afterwards — there was a big red glow come up and died down quickly and we all thought, ‘What the hell’s that?’ And, er, I thought no more of it. And then in the morning of course when, when we went for breakfast there was, um, pictures of this and there was the Lincoln [?] and they were all killed and Robbie was too. He was a great character. Yeah.
CB: So next you went to the HCU and the HCU you went to 97 Squadron but the war finished. So how did everybody feel about that?
RD: Well we stopped [laugh] sorry. That’s the reason why I left anyway [cough]. Not only that they’re demoting you and bringing in these new grades and chucking you in — you hadn’t got a mess then I suppose. I don’t know where you went. They didn’t have a gunners’ mess, whatever, I don’t know. You just felt let down. You know what I mean?
CB: Let down because —
RD: Well I was —
CB: Because you hadn’t seen the action, is that what you meant?
RD: There was that to it but it was the way you were treated after the war — it was, it was just falling to bits, you know, I mean, as you say, the aircraft — the economy [?] of it was time-expired bloody Lancs and squadrons. The Wellingtons were well on their way out really. And also the morale was there. I mean, when you’ve got a group of guys together and they’re doing something, you know, dodgy [laugh] flying and — you don’t know what’s going to happen, put it that way. Then you become very close but then, as I say, look at myself. I was told to fly with them and fly with them and fly with them. I didn’t even know the crew. Then when Pete left so there was nothing, as far as I was concerned, and the war, that had ended, and I thought, ‘Well, what is there?’ And they started coming out with these aircraft that could — jets, you know. Oh yes, that’s right, sorry. There’s a little thing I must tell you as the fact that when we was there on the Lincolns we were told that there would be an exercise with Canberra’s, you know, so we got in the aircraft, I got in the aircraft and that was it. Then these Canberras were going to do a diving attack on our aircraft. So I’d got this gyro-sight, so the Canberra was way up there, carrying on the same course, and I’m looking at that and thinking, ‘Right, when you come down I’ll get you.’ And, er, he came down. I went like that and the gyro-sight toppled, get what I mean?
CB: Absolutely.
RD: It was, it was too quick. So that’s another thing, I mean [laugh]. Useless, isn’t it. What can you do?
CB: Sure.
RD: You know, you get the 262s, you know, and had you got plenty more of them they could have done a lot of damage.
CB: What sort of experiences were fed back when you were in the HCU? Because a lot of the crews had been on operations. So what did you get from that?
RD: Well they were quite happy, you know, really, I suppose but, um, I never doubted that, they’d done their tour or whatever, um, yeah, we were alright. But of course the thing is, with the older people in the RAF — I’m not talking about peacetime, wartime as well — the older people in the RAF. I mean, we were, we were at a dance, er, I forget where it was. Anyway, I was — I’d got my buddy [?] and things. It might have been Morton or somewhere and [cough] the guys were having a few beers like everybody else and enjoying it, lovely, and then in the morning we were told to go to the cinema, all sergeant aircrew to go to the cinema. So we went to the cinema and there was the CO and he said, ‘Right.’ He said, ‘I’ve never seen such a disgusting display of behaviour by all you people at this dance.’ He said, ‘You should be ashamed of yourself.’ And I heard it at school as well. They used to tell me, ‘You’re nothing like your fathers and your people before you.’ ‘You’re a disgusting young people and to pee in the middle of a bloody dance floor.’ He said, ‘It’s just the top of the thing. That’s disgusting.’ So we thought, ‘Yeah, that’s nice isn’t it? That’s typical of what’s going to go on.’ So we left there and it turned out it was a ground crew sergeant that pissed on the floor. So there you go. Not that I’m saying anything about the ground crew. They were lovely. We all had our moments, I must admit.
CB: How did the air — the crew of your aircraft get on with the ground crew?
RD: Lovely, yeah, but then again you didn’t see a lot of them unless you walked around and spoke to them. Yeah, they were fine, um, but you read reports of course that they were not fine, you know. They were — you know there’s a bloke, his statement I got upstairs [cough] written by some — in my opinion — brain has gone — about ground crew, he said they — a whole list of it, they hated us, they did this, they did that [cough]. It’s all rubbish. That’s how it, um, came about, you know, by their state of mind. Obviously they must have had a bad time or something like that and that was it. I don’t know whether that’s —
CB: Did you keep in touch with your crew after the war?
RD: Yes. Yeah. I’ve got some photos there —
CB: I’m going to stop this now. [background noise]
RD: All the pictures that you see of the Lincoln now. They’ve taken the gun turret out, mid-upper, I don’t know why.
CB: Just on this topic. We are talking now about gunnery again about equipment. How did you feel about using point 303s instead of .5s? Because the Lincoln had .5s.
RD: I used to think at that time that was, that was OK because, um, if I remember rightly, I think at six hundred yards, no four hundred yards, you get an area of a twenty two foot six square.
CB: A cone.
RD: So, you know, you’ve got a chance of hitting but a little 303 like that [cough] on the under plate on the front of these aircraft would just bounce off unless you got a lucky hit, which they did, they did at times, I must admit they did. But the 20 mill that was alright, my God that was — phew, bloody hell, that was a thing that was. And to load them you had to get in the turret and, and drop a, an arming tool down a hook and you had to drop it down to the breach, hook on the 20 mil cannon shell, and then pull it up, um, into the breach.
CB: This was the belt, the belt of shells.
RD: But the thing was you had to be very careful because some of the shells were impact used and if you got hold of it and pulled it like that you could blow yourself up. [cough] I think they discontinued those anyway. But they did with the turret. It was too much. I was as deaf as a post anyway.
CB: Ok. Thank you. I’m going to stop it now. [interview paused at 1:23:14:01 and restarted 1:23:16:2]
RD: Now we’ve glossed over [background noise] what you did after leaving school before joining the RAF. So you left school at fourteen Ron, what did you do before you joined the RAF and where did you live?
RD: At fourteen I went to Rootes and they were building, at that time, the stern frame and the centre section, wing centre section, of the Blenheim and, um, my first job there was to put behind a guillotine, which I had visions of one of these French guillotines coming down and chopping my head off, but it was a machine obviously and it cut metal, and I was the holder-upper on the guillotine, and my job was to go behind the guillotine. The guy operating it was there and I used to hold it and, er, it would cut and then I would put it down and cut, put it down and —
CB: This is aluminium sheet is it? Sheet aluminium?
RD: Alclad.
CB: Alclad.
RD: Alclad. Yeah, I used to do that and then there was guys going round with rivets and the rivets had to be normalised and, um, they were put in salt baths for a certain amount of time and all us guys had trays and at certain times of the day, and when I was free from this guillotine, you were given these rivet, rivet boxes and you had to go round to each guy, take his old rivet box and give him new a rivet box and that would go all the way through the cycle so that the rivets were always soft, yeah? And would harden with age. And then I was offered a job, sheet metal work, right, and I was taken on by the union as a, as an apprentice for sheet metal work and I used to do a bit of riveting and a bit of this and a bit of that, and shaping things and that, and, um, I think that was — that went on for — oh how long? Three years, that’s right, three years. By that time I could do a pretty good job at, um, panel beating. I was knocking out dents or whatever in the aluminium stuff and that. And then of course the end of the time came and, er, I got my calling up papers. I went to — what’s the name of the place? The house in London?
CB: What, to Lords?
RD: No. It’s a building. Oh God, Air Ministry RAF place — it’s got a name. Anyway, I went to there and that’s where all the things, medicals were done, and I went to that and then in my log book you’ll see A3B, A3B, NL what it was I got to do this thing, the length of leg, and I think it had to be thirty, thirty inches, yeah, and when they shoved me up — it was very crude in a way. They shoved me up against a, a back wall and then they would measure your leg length and mine was twenty-nine. So I got one guy pushing me back like this and the other guy pulling my legs to try and get the extra inch but it didn’t work out. So I could, according to that, I could never be a pilot because I didn’t have the leg length [cough]. [unclear] Of course, er, there was a little guy who used to fly, um, Kittyhawks and stuff and I used to take him to the Air Crew Association and, um, his job was to liaison with people, with these aircraft, and I always remember a little tale he said was, er, when he was in the Far East, he was told to fly from — I don’t know where it was, Libya to Malta, and he was told in — where the headquarters were — but this was a special message for the admiral in Malta, so he said, ‘ I’ve just come from a trip.’ And they said, ‘No you cannot worry about that, get in the aircraft and do this job because it’s very, very important.’ OK, gets in his Spitfire, flies off and lands in Malta and he said, ‘I’ve got a very special secret message for the admiral.’ So he had — was escorted to the — I don’t know where it was, the naval base, and went in front and saluted and gave the admiral this, er, this envelope [cough] and, um, the admiral went over there near the window and sort of opened the thing, ‘Oh, jolly good, jolly good, yeah. I bet the odds on that will be really great.’ He said, ‘OK, you can go and get yourself a meal now.’ And it was a tip. [laugh]
CB: For racing.
RD: For horse racing in Malta.
CB: [background noise] Ron was, um, in London during the war before he joined the RAF so what was it like Ron when you were in London and experiencing the air raids?
RD: I was only fourteen at the time [clears throat] and the war started. The sirens went and everybody panicked and run around, and got under tables and things, but then it was the all clear. And then nothing happened at all for quite some time, until one day above, in the sky above us, and over London itself there were vapour trails, loads and loads of vapour trails, and aircraft way up high, and then a smudge of smoke from where we were on the horizon. If you got upstairs and looked out you could see a smudge of smoke and that was when they first started bombing the docks and they caught fire, several of the granaries and other places along there, which really made a blaze, and all this was going on in a relatively small area of London called the East End [cough]. Unfortunately, that is where the real English people were, the cockneys, the, the miners, the coal — you know, the dockers, all sorts of things, and, er, living a very frugal life. But these bombs came down and wiped out a lot of the East End and then the fire got even worse and you could see the red on the horizon. I thought it was a good idea but — it’s silly again — but me and my mate said, ‘Let’s have a bike ride up there and see if we can see what’s going on somewhere.’ But we, we rode up there through London itself, near the East End, and then we were turned back because the police were there and God knows what, um, and then at night, they started to bomb at night, and this went on for, oh dear, four or five months maybe, maybe more. But every night, without doubt, without any problem, the siren would sound and then the bombers would come over. Then in the morning when it got light the all-clear would go. There was no guns, nothing. They just came over and did what they did. Then one night, one particular night, we were all there and waiting for the sirens to go and the sirens went, and we had an Anderson shelter in the garden and we went down there, sort of thing, and then the guns started. You never heard [cough] anything like it [chime] and all the guns down south were created in London, you know, mobile guns and everything and, um, they just fired hundreds of shells up in the air but they didn’t, they didn’t, they couldn’t target anything. They didn’t know anything about where they were or anything. They just fired everything and the idea was, apparently, I found out, was to raise morale of people — ‘cause every night they sat there and the bombs were coming on top of them and nothing was happening. So this, er, lot went up and — but they still carried on bombing and, er, we had a few two roads up that, um, dropped and killed some people and then they hit the gas, a big gasometer there, which was quite something that. That went up in a big flare [chimes]. It was a good mark but quite frankly I didn’t see, where I was in the west of London, I didn’t see a great deal. The one thing they did drop was an oil bomb which was a barrel full of crude oil with a detonator on it and that come down in Shepherds Bush Green. It didn’t do any damage but it made a mess, black muck everywhere. I can’t — that’s it as far as I was concerned, er, and then I joined the ATC and through that I used to cycle to the ATC and come back. And then I joined the fire watchers [slight laugh]. They brought out a thing, dousing the incendiaries, because this is what, what caused so much problem in London and everywhere, thousands of incendiaries came down, burned the roof and burned the place out. So they brought out voluntary fire parties and what you did you got together as a neighbourhood and you were issued with a stirrup pump and a bucket and, er, told how to put these fires out by laying on the floor and pressing the thing and one thing or another but if you pressed — put water directly on it it would just explode so you had to be very careful [cough]. So I did that for a while and then, as I say, I joined the ATC and used to go there and then the bombing receded then because that was the time, I believe, that the Germans were going into Russia. They wanted all their aircraft over there, most of them, and that was it. Then I joined the ATC. The V1s that caused — I’ve spoken to you about, at Clapham, when we were on the preliminary air crew training course, er, that was another sort of thing. Oh and by the way, um, when I was home, home in London I had a five-day leave — Chiswick was quite near us — but there one tremendous great explosion and, er, it blew some houses down and things and, er, people didn’t hear any aircraft or anything. And that was the actual first V1 rocket that hit the, hit the ground in London.
CB: First V2.
RD: V2, sorry, V2, yeah.
CB: Were there many refugees from the east of London coming your way. What happened with them?
RD: They all went in hotels and things along what they call Bayswater Road, which runs along Hyde Park, and they were all put in there, loads and loads of them, quite a lot from Malta to help them out, um, very good actually. They really looked after them I must admit, um, what was I going to say? Oh, the other thing is, what surprised me was after the war, er, Malta had, had been saturated with bombs and so many killed and this place was just wrecked. But they began to build it up and there was a guy apparently, I think called Mintoff, which was the president of all of them, the boss, and he asked our government for a million pound to help with the job and it was refused. Typical politics I suppose I’m afraid. But that’s life. Thank you very much.
CB: Thank you Ron. [recording device stops at 1:39:12:6 and restarts 1:39:17:01] This is just a summary of Ron’s situation. Even though he joined the RAF on 31st of January 1944 at Lords and Grove Court he never became operational during the hostilities. He’d chosen to be an air gunner and, er, was sent on a wireless operator course, with a view to then going to air gunner. However he ended up being shunted from pillar to post instead of actually going to, er, straight squadron operations. So various training he undertook included RAF regiment and educational training. He eventually left the RAF in 1947.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Ronald George Doble
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-17
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Sound
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ADobleRG151117
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Doble grew up in London and joined the Air Training Corps and the fire watchers when war was declared. He volunteered for the Air Force when he was 18 and trained as an air gunner. He talks about the conditions in his turret and the mishaps he had with his crew. Ron was never operational and left the RAF in 1947. He then returned to his former job as a panel beater were he stayed until he retired. When he retired be became involved in the Air Crew Association.
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
Cathie Hewitt
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
England--Shropshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
1947
Language
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eng
Format
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01:40:15 audio recording
1653 HCU
21 OTU
97 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
displaced person
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lincoln
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Dalcross
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Yatesbury
Scarecrow
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/619/8888/PPageTJ1606.1.jpg
b148aa18f4800cd0fb0c18a9acf80a81
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/619/8888/APageTJ160702.2.mp3
c8fe4cbafca04e08890102b6ebcd50da
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Page, Thomas James
T J Page
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Page, TJ
Description
An account of the resource
Fifteen items. An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Thomas Page DFM (1922 - 2017, 922297, 183427 Royal Air Force), his log book, two autobiographies and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 49 Squadron.
The collection was The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Thomas Page and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-02
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: So hang on –,
TP: Why the hell didn’t I bring those things? In the drawer, in the ‒
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 2ndof July 2016. I’m in Hythe with Thomas Page DFM who’s going to tell us his story of his twenty-eight years in the Royal Air Force. So, what are your earliest recollections Thomas? Of life ‒
TP: Oh, of life? Not just the RAF?
CB: No, and then into the RAF.
TP: [Sigh]. My earliest recollections are of living with my mother and my grandparents just outside of Coulswood (?) beside Manston Airfield in the 1920s to the 19 ‒, which date? Which date did we move to ‒, I was ‒, I was nine years old, I was born in ’22, at nine years old we moved from St Peters at Broadstairs where I started school. My father then went to work for his uncle on a farm at Chislet. When I left school at ‒, oh at the age of thirteen I went to a village school, a church school, at Chilset. At the age of thirteen went to a new central school called Sturry Central School um, not very far, at Sturry, which is west of Canterbury, not very far from Canterbury, and I became the first school captain, boys captain of the school, and equally so a girl from Chislet School became the first girls school captain. Anyway, that was at thirteen, but by fourteen I had to leave like we did in those days and then I just went to work on a farm with my father and his uncle. That was up until the age of ‒, oh dear, in 1936. The farm had to be sold because uncle got too old and auntie got too old and we went to work on a farm at Westwell, which is about five miles from Ashford on the west side. And as time went on 1940 came my ambition rose to the fore and one day I got fed up with what I was doing, I just got on my bicycle and cycled to Canterbury to the recruiting office. That would be in April, April 1940, and then I had to wait until 19th of July when I had to report to RAF Uxbridge. I can remember having to travel from Chislet from Marshside, which is the area, on my own, through London to RAF Uxbridge. I’d never been into London, never been on a tube train. Anyway, I remember going through the barbed wire gate entrance saying, ‘Reporting for duty,’ and soon I was joined by the others that were reporting for duty on that day. That was on the Monday and the first words the CO said was, ’You do not walk across that square. It’s hallowed ground.’ Fair enough. We were kitted up and attested on the Tuesday and on the Wednesday the whole intake of airmen, having been kitted out, went by tube train to Morecambe in Lancashire to be trained as flight mechanics A. The course finished at the end of 1940 and I was passed out as an AC2 and I went to ‒, I was posted to number 257 Hurricane Fighter Squadron, whose CO was Squadron Leader Stanford Tuck of the Battle of Britain, and there I was on the airfield with the aircraft, turning them round, filling them up, doing repairs, doing the daily inspections, but that only lasted three months ‘cause off I went to Gloucester for another course to become a fitter. Er ‒, 1942, and then I was on 71 MU based at Slough, close to the Hawker factory, and there I was involved with mostly moving and collecting of aircraft between units and stations and picking up crashes, both German and our own, for salvage and, as I say, 1942 came and then there was this notice on orders, fitters required to volunteer to help fly the four-engine jobs and, having seen that Stirling on the ground at Manston where I was repairing an aircraft, I volunteered. I just wanted to fly. That was April 1943. A little bit before that we went to RAF Swinderby, not Swinderby, that was further up, just outside Newark in Nottinghamshire, Winthorpe [emphasis], Winthorpe where we were crewed up. The new um ‒. They wanted an air gunner and a flight engineer to join a Wellington Squadron, a Wellington crew that had just finished OTU training, and they pushed us all in a big room and said, ‘Sort out who you want to fly with,’ which we did and then we started off with flying Manchesters, training in Manchesters, four wall [?] things and then onto Lancasters until it was time we were considered proficient to go to a bomber squadron in, as you saw in that photograph, in 1943. I finished at 49 Squadron in April ’44. Er ‒, I was sent, I was commissioned and I went to RAF St Athan in South Wales to train flight engineers on the ground side. Yeah, I was commissioned at the end of my tour, that would be beginning of ’44, that’s right, I was commissioned and went down to St Athan and then it wasn’t until 1947 that I went to 44 Squadron Lincolns for a two-year peace time flying tour.
CB: I’m just going back a bit. When you volunteered for air crew where did they send you to be trained for being a flight engineer?
TP: [Sigh]
CB: Did they send you to St Athan then?
TP: Yes, I went to St Athan to learn all about the Lancaster inside and out and then of course from there to join the Wimpy crew at um ‒.
CB: So they’d done their OTU?
TP: They did their OUT somewhere down in the south, yeah.
CB: Yeah, so you crewed up and that was at the Heavy Conversion Unit?
TP: We crewed up and the first aircraft we flew as a crew, or trained as a crew first of all, was a Manchester because they were keeping the Lancs for bombing ops and the Manchester hadn’t been ‒, wasn’t good enough.
CB: No.
TP: Kept having certain engine failure ‘cause they were trying out a different type of H-type engine. Anyway, we finished flying training in April and that’s when we went to 49 Squadron.
CB: So how many ops did you do?
TP: Thirty.
CB: Right, OK and what were the most memorable of those ops?
TP: The first one [laugh].
CB? Oh, right, what was that?
TP: Well, we set off to go to Italy. The target was Spetzia, the docks at Spetzia in the north-west of Italy [laugh]. When the time for the target came up, normally you could see a raid from see from miles away especially at altitude but there was no sign of a raid anywhere. We suddenly realised we were lost, we found ourselves still over the sea, over the sea, and then they realised we were over the Mediterranean, we’d ‒, and I said to the skipper, I said, ‘If we don’t turn for base now, we return to base, we won’t get back there ‘cause I haven’t got enough fuel.’ So we turned to come back and after a series of changes in course we eventually came back out over the French coast, all alone, we flew alone across Europe on our own. Anyway, we were short of fuel when coming back. On the south coast and we just plonked down on the first airfield we saw because when we landed we could see the bottom of the tanks. What had happened on subsequent inspection was the main compass was thirty degrees out so every time the navigator made a course it kept going off to the right so instead of going towards the north of Italy we were going down into the Med. I think I saw, as we turned, I think I saw Sardinia and Corsica. Anyway, as I said I told the skipper, ‘If we go back the same way we’ll never get there. If we don’t turn now.’ So we dropped the cookie in the sea and after a series of various courses I think we went up around Paris at one stage before we managed to get to the coast, back to the coast. And, as I say, coming across the Channel they couldn’t be sure where they were and I was saying, ‘We’re short of fuel.’ But we did find the south coast of England. Misty it was when we called up Darkie for our positions and permission to land. There was no sign at all, nothing, they’d all shut down, so we took a chance, found the first airfield we could see and went straight in, when er ‒
CB: Where was that?
TP: At Dunsfold and when we looked in the petrol tanks we could see the bottom of the petrol tanks. All we had was what was in the back of the tanks when the tail was down. Well that was a salutary effect. Obviously the compass hadn’t been swung properly. Anyway, where’s the log book?
CB: It’s in the back of the car.
TP: The printed one or my log book?
CB: The printed one. You’ve got the other one here, have you?
TP: I think I saw it.
CB: I’ll stop this just for a moment. So that was your first op. What other memorable ops were there?
TP: I don’t know how many ops we did but very shortly, very early on we did a mining trip to the Frisian Islands. Er ‒, we lost twenty-two aircraft that night off the Frisian Islands. We were down at five hundred feet in cloud, couldn’t see a thing, but as with mines you have to record their position, where they’re dropped, so we had to drop them in the sea and come back to base. Yeah, then well, of course, the rest you will see, one after the other, mostly in the Ruhr, Essen, Dusseldorf, Nuremburg, Hamburg. Oh we set Hamburg alight. I was on the two big ones.
CB: You were on the two big ones then, were you?
TP: Yeah we really set Hamburg alight.
CB: That was the first night we used window.
TP: Oh right. So you were you unopposed?
TP: And we could hear the German people saying the aircraft are multiplying themselves [laugh]. Well, then as you’ll see from the log book there was a series was mostly into the Ruhr. I did two more, two more trips. One, two, two more trips to Italy.
CB: Now, going to Italy, normally it meant going through the Alps. How did you get on with that?
TP: The first time was very clear and we got over ‘cause we were at twenty thousand feet or more but the second time we ran into cloud and storms over the Alps and we were down to about seventeen hundred ‒, seventeen thousand feet and it was a bit dicey to say the least. Er ‒, we got iced up, ice on the wings, St Elmo’s fire on the windscreen [laugh] but other than that it was fairly straightforward.
CB: And what was the target then?
TP: Target then was ‒, what was those two big towns?
CB: Well, Turin and Milan.
TP: Turin was one of them.
CB: Was Milan the other?
TP: Pardon?
CB: Milan? Milan?
TP: Yes.
CB: And then the port La Spezia?
TP: Yeah, up on the north-east corner of Italy.
CB: North-west, yeah.
TP: The others went off very well indeed. There was no trouble there although some aircraft were lost and some aircraft landed in North Africa.
CB: Did the Italians put up night fighters?
TP: We never saw any ‘cause we never got there. Oh, you mean the two that we did get to there?
CB: Yes.
TP: We never saw any.
CB: No, and what about their flak? Was there a lot of flak?
TP: I can’t remember much flak at all, no.
CB: And on your raids against Germany, your ops against Germany?
TP: Pardon?
CB: On the ops against Germany what about the flak and fighters there?
TP: Well, the first time we went to the Ruhr, I think it was Essen, you’ll see it in the log book. I remember miles away you could see the target all lit up, ring of searchlights full of flak, searchlights. And I said, I gasped on the intercom, I said, ‘How the hell do we get through there?’ No one answered, each had his own thoughts. But anyway, we were soon amongst the ‒, in the target area, you would see aircraft catching fire, being shot down, you pressed on, smelling the cordite of the bursting shells around you, um ‒, we never saw much in the way of fighters that the gunners could shoot at, once or twice I think they did. Um ‒, in fact we were very lucky, the worst flak was the one up to the target ‘cause you had to fly straight and level and you waited for the bomb aimer to say, ‘Bomb’s gone,’ and I knew they’d gone because I could feel the flex, the floor of the cock pit would flex when they realised the bombs. We always had a cookie, a four thousand pounder, and about four or five or six five hundred pounders.
CB: Yeah, and how much flak did you collect on the way?
TP: We didn’t, the only time we collected flak was from the British Navy just off the coast of Cromer on the way home when we were about three thousand feet with the navigation lights on. That was awful. The wireless operator got filled with shrapnel and he was ill, invalided out. Um ‒, when it happened I was standing in the flight engineer’s position ‘cause I had to move about quite a bit and I saw flak going past me [unclear] going past me and the skipper called for reports and the navigator came up and said, ‘Ralph’s been hit.’ So I went back past the navigator, looked at Ralph, got the First Aid. He ‒, the wireless operator had his hand on his desk (you know the position of the wireless operator in the Lanc), he’d got a hole through his hand which was the worst one, and he got flak up his backside, up his back, and he was ‒. I put a tourniquet on his wrist to stop it and every so often I said to the navigator, ‘Keep an eye on him,’ ‘cause I had to go back to what I was doing. Every now and again I’d go back and release the tourniquet. And when we got back at ‒, this time we were flying from Dunelm Lodge ‘cause Fiskerton runway at one point was being resurfaced and it was pouring with rain and on the downward leg I tried to put the undercarriage down and it didn’t come down [laugh]. Fortunately, the emergency system, the air system did work and we landed. But Ralph got out of his seat and walked to the ambulance. God knows, we went to see him in Maudsley Hospital but never saw him again. The rear gunner disappeared of course ‘cause he got shot up, shaken up, on a flight where we returned early. We were over the North Sea, and I’d lost an engine, the starboard inner engine, lost the flame covers and exhaust stubs off the starboard inner and flame was working its way over the leading edge of the wing. Not only was it dangerous, it was also a beacon to night fighters and we were over the North Sea. Shut the engine down so then returned to base. We dropped the cookie in the North Sea and when we got back to base ‒. I don’t know if you’ve been to the airfield at Fiskerton?
CB: I haven’t no.
TP: They put us down on the short runway to save the long runway for all the other returning aircraft to save them from being diverted. Anyway, I got the undercarriage down, made the approach and there was a cross-wind and we floated [emphasis] and so it was a little while before we touched down and after a while the pilot said, ‘Brace, I’m gonna go off the end of the runway.’ Which we did, off the end of the runway, the undercarriage collapsed. Nothing happened, no fire, nothing like that. I remember getting the hatch off the top off the roof and diving straight out and running like mad. They all did. But fortunately nothing happened.
CB: It didn’t go up?
TP: No, nothing. Didn’t burn or anything and fortunately no bombs went off. That’s when the rear gunner got shaken up ‘cause being at the back end of the Lancaster he probably caught the main shock. He was invalided out. And then you’ll see how we went on. Look, target after target after target, mostly in the Ruhr. We went to Berlin two or three times, flew to Berlin with Wing Commander Adams, the CO, towards the end of my tour when ‒, ‘cause Jock Wallace had finished his thirty in October and we all had to fly as spares with other crew. When he left you see I ‒, in October, I stayed on as flight engineer leader until about ’44, ’44 that was when I was commissioned and then sent to St Athan. You interested in anything after the war?
CB: Well, I am. Just back on ‒, what was your role in the aircraft?
TP: Flight engineer. I was virtually second pilot.
CB: What did you actually do?
TP: Well if you think of it ‒
CB: From take-off.
TP: Pardon?
CB: So from take-off you do the throttles.
TP: I would select the fuel, air conditions, oxygen, see that all the engines were running perfectly and then, when the time came, apart from starting the engines, you know, um ‒. When you think of it the pilot just had his control tower and his rudders and his instruments in front of him, I was left to do everything else, speed of the engines, the air speed, the oxygen, everything. The petrol controls were down to the right, you had bunches of instruments to tell you how much fuel you got, what pressures there was, what coolant pressures were, looking after the oxygen supply, everything that the pilot couldn’t do.
CB: Yeah.
TP: So you could say you did everything the pilot could do but you never flew the aircraft.
CB: So just taking off you’re doing the throttle?
TP: Taking off the pilot would turn onto the runway, he’d line up by using the outer engines and once we were straight and level he’d say, ‘Full power,’ and I’d push the throttles right to the grate. We’d done our pre-flight check, of course, before and once we were safely airborne he’d say, ‘Undercarriage,’ and I’d lift the undercarriage up. Later on I’d bring the flaps up and then we’d settle down to whatver air speed he wanted er ‒, and then we were off.
CB: So what flap did you set for take-off?
TP: Fifteen degrees.
CB: And the tanks were managed by you, the fuel, so what tanks did you start with?
TP: We always started with the inner boards, the in boards, and as soon as you were airborne you went over to number twos, and as soon as number twos getting low enough you went into number threes into number two and then you emptied number two and then did the remainder on the number ones.
CB: Right, so the number three is out towards, is beyond the engine?
TP: Yes.
CB: Right on the wing tip?
TP: You had number three tank, you had one, two and three on both sides. It had lesser amount of fuel. That was emptied into number two when there was sufficient space in number two that had been used up.
CB: So the sequence of fuel flow was through tank number one because they were linked directly to that. So number two tank ran into number one, did it?
TP: No, you ran on number two.
CB: Oh you did?
TP: Until they ran out and then you went back on to number three, the inward boards, number ones, yeah.
CB: Right, so when you’re in the air what are you doing then? You’re airborne and got to cruising height.
TP: Every twenty minutes I was making a log.
CB: Right.
TP: Of engine interpreters. Pressures, everything, er ‒, and that was it, seeing everything’s alright.
CB: And so what revs were you taking off at?
TP: Three thousand per engine.
CB: And you’d pull it back after how long before you ‒? And at what level?
TP: Until we were safely airborne. We had an override. Normal engine speeds were three thousand plus twelve but we had an override. We’d put the boost up to fourteen, if not more, and then when you were safely airborne you’d take out the override and continue climbing at twenty-eight fifty, twenty-eight fifty. You never moved the throttles once you were airborne. You had your throttles fully open. You controlled your speed on the engine speed on the revs so you were there, you saw he’d ‒, the pilot had got the speed that he wanted.
CB: OK. What about the pitch on the propellers?
TP: [Sigh]
CB: So did you take off in fine pitch?
TP: Yeah, always in fine pitch, yes.
CB: Then what?
TP: And then you’d come back to whatever airspeed you wanted.
CB: And you’d change to course pitch for cruising, would you?
TP: Pardon?
CB: Did you change to course for cruising?
TP: It was automatic.
CB: Automatic.
TP: It was [uncear] and airscrews, yeah. Once you’d set your throttles fully forward you just controlled your airspeed by the revelations, revolutions [emphasis] of each engine.
CB: So you had to shut down the starboard inner?
TP: Yeah.
CB: When you got hit by the Navy ship, what’s the process for doing that?
TP: Turn off the fuel cocks to start with, turn off the ignition, just let it run down, feather the airscrew, that is feather the blades so that they’re straight on to the airflow and that was it. See that your fuel was turned off. We had a cross feed if we needed it on the mainplane [?] where you could transfer from one side to another. Fortunately I never had to do that.
CB: So with the sorties coming to an end ‒
TP: Pardon?
CB: With the sorties coming to an end, what did you do then?
CB: We’d join the circuit and you’d get a number to land and you’d follow one another round until it was your turn to land and you were given permission to land. At the end of the airfield I’d put the undercarriage down, the flaps down to fifteen degrees, we’d go round to the down-wind position, I’d put the undercarriage down, I’d adjust the webs er ‒, and the rest was up to the pilot. He then ‒, that was only then that he’d have his hands on the throttle for the actual landing.
TP: He’d do that himself?
TP: Yes.
CB: Because that was a sensitive task.
TP: That was a sensitive task yes.
CB: So here we are with one engine out, which upsets the trim of the aircraft.
TP: We’ve got trimming controls here. Trimming controls for the [unclear] and trimming controls for the rudder.
CB: Right and you’re doing that with the pilot or ‒?
TP: He would do that because he’d know what the feel of the controls was like.
CB: He had the feel on the stick.
TP: To make things easy on his controls.
CB: Right, OK, so he’s doing that, then you land so then what? So you’d taxi on all engines?
TP: Taxi on the two outer engines to the dispersal point and then you’d go through the routine of shitting your engines down.
CB: So what’s the routine for shutting down your engines?
TP: Oh, can I remember now? Obviously we put them into fine pitch, close the throttles, turn the fuel off, turn the ignition off and they went down.
CB: Right, so do you now hand over as the flight engineer, with everything shut down, do you hand over to the Chiefie?
TP: Oh always see the Chiefie. The ground Chiefie?
CB: Yes.
TP: Yes and tell him anything ‒, we always saw the ground Chiefie before we took off and the pilot would sign the log book, the aircraft log book, taking responsibility for the aircraft and then of course anything that we noticed wanted doing when we came back we’d see Chiefie and the ground crew, and then we were off to the briefing room.
CB: So with the Chiefie, what was the relationship between the crew and the ground crew?
TP: Only the pilot and me went to Chiefie for that sort of ‒, as part of our duties, the others just piled into their appropriate positions.
CB: So now you’re at the de-brief, so how did the de-brief run?
TP: [Sigh] Sit round a table asking what you’d seen or telling what you’d seen.
CB: This is with the intelligence officer?
TP: With the intelligence. I was thinking about the ground Chiefie.
CB: Ground Chiefie, OK yeah.
TP: We saw the ground Chiefie to say if there was anything wrong and anything ‘cause they’d take it over to service it, the aircraft, and of course it’s quite a way to the briefing room.
CB: Yes.
TP: The briefing room was in a little ‒, I went back there years later and it was being used ‒, there were donkeys in it. It was being used as a stable. I don’t know what it had been used for before, before we used it as a briefing room, de-briefing room. Mind you there was a big Nissan hut we used as the briefing room and then we had a hangar, or a tin hut, for a locker room. We had the inevitable bacon and egg sandwich before we took off in the evenings and when we came back, if we came back.
CB: What did you take with you to eat when you were flying?
TP: We were given a packet of sandwiches and a tin of orange juice and a bar of chocolate. Yep, I carried a small tool kit. Why? I don’t know, I suppose that was if we landed away somewhere. Um ‒, navigator of course had his charts and maps and instruments. Wireless operator had his codes.
CB: So in the crews, were you sitting in your seat behind the pilot or on the folding seat at the side?
TP: The folding seat at the side.
CB: So you could monitor the instruments?
TP: Oh yes but more often than not I was standing up, only now and again could I sit down.
CB: Yeah.
TP: It was a seat that folded down and hooked up to the side. Er ‒, I just had to keep an eye on the air speed and the revelations, and the boost pressures, oxygen supply, air supply, in fact do everything other than what the pilot had to do to fly the plane.
CB: So you did your thirty ops. How did you all feel having completed thirty ops?
TP: Well, it was different because the crew had previously flown Wimpys, doing their operational training as a crew of five, they even did one windows raid over Germany before they came to the Heavy Conversion Unit where we were crewed up with myself and another mid-upper gunner and, of course, we finished at different times. Once the pilot had done his thirty because he did two or three ops the second Dickie with an experienced pilot before he took his own crew. So Jock finished in October and I had four more to do, so I was kept on as the flight engineer leader, and it took me round to April 1944 for me to do the four extras or extra four with the other crews.
CB: Is that because there weren’t spaces with the other crews?
TP: That was because the others were short, short of a flight engineer, for some reason or other.
CB: Yes.
TP: Or it was a made up crew with the CO, something like that. One of my flights to Berlin was with Wing Commander Adams. He was an air attaché, apparently, and he’d been sitting at a desk late on and he’d volunteered for air crew. He said he couldn’t bear the thought of what I was and not volunteering or not getting onto an operational squadron. He was a fine fellow, Wing Commander Adams.
CB: Did he complete the war?
TP: As far as I know. He didn’t do a full tour of course.
CB: No.
TP: But he commanded a squadron. He was still there when I left it.
CB: So there was a point where the crew, because of the pilot Jock finishing early, there was a point when all the crew effectively dispersed.
TP: That’s right.
CB: So what was the feeling then?
TP: [Sigh] Sadness in a way because you’d flown together, you’d been through it all, you’d lived together, you were in the same tin-hutted barrack room.
CB: The Nissan hut.
TP: Nissan hut, yeah, you went out to Lincoln all the time together, you went round all the pubs together, not that I drank much, but you got to know one another quite well and then to suddenly find it’s no more, you’re out on your own, but that was life. It happened to a lot of crew members very often. When we went to the RAF [?] course we had to have a spare in the wireless operator’s position after the Ralph got hit we had to have a different man in the rear turret because Taffy, Taffy [unclear] got injured. So you couldn’t really ‒
CB: That disrupted the family.
TP: Pardon?
CB: That [emphasis] disrupted the family really. What was it like then for you working with other crews on a temporary basis? How did you fit in there?
TP: It just fell into place. I mean, you knew what you had to do and that was it.
CB: But there was no social link with that because it was a one-off.
TP: There was no social, no.
CB: So now you’ve finished your thirty and you went to St Athan as an instructor?
TP: I was commissioned at the end of my thirty and I went to St Athan to train flight engineers.
CB: What was that like?
TP: It was very good. You were teaching them all about the Lancaster. [Laugh]. Every now and again, there was a MU Maintenance Unit on the other side of the airfield where they were doing repairs, you know, on the Lancasters, and every now and then you’d get a telephone call, ‘We need a flight engineer to go with the pilot.’
CB: For the test flights.
TP: Not necessarily a test flight but to and from the factory, to take aircraft to and from the factory.
CB: Oh right.
TP: Yeah, that was great fun, just the two of you in the aircraft flying low over Wiltshire, the Malvern Hills, I’ll always remember that and then from there I went on, as I say, in peacetime in 44.
CB: So now you’re in peacetime and a new squadron, what’s the feeling of the crew then?
TP: You didn’t have a crew as such, although crews did tend to stick together. I became the squadron adjutant and the CO’s flight engineer so it was only when the Co wanted to fly I flew as his engineer. At other times I flew as and when required.
CB: What was the Lincoln like compared to the Lancaster?
TP: It was a wonderful aircraft in many ways. It was a larger Lancaster. We liked it. We went as a squadron on a goodwill trip to southern Rhodesia to show the Rhodesians, to say ‘Thank you,’ to the Rhodesians who’d flown on the squadron during the war. It was named the 44 Rhodesian Squadron.
CB: So it was more powerful, more manoeuvrable, what was it like?
TP: More powerful, bigger engines, bigger in size as well, yes, heavier. The only time we went and did practice bombing stuff was to ‒, in peacetime, was to the U-boat pens in Heligoland. It was mostly just training.
CB: What were you dropping?
TP: I think they had some kind of armour-piercing bomb that they had tried out.
CB: Was it a big one?
TP: We didn’t have any big ones, no cookies, or anything like that.
CB: No but was it a tall-boy, which was the ‒,
TP: I never flew with a tall-boy.
CB: Right.
TP: I know people who did.
CB: But this was a different type of anti-submarine pen bomb?
TP: Yes, that was later, yes. I served in Germany after the war, I served with a Wing Commander who flew one of the tall-boy aircraft and bombed the Bielefeld viaduct in [unclear] and crashed.
CB: That was a Grand Slam.
TP: Grand Slam yes but other than that the peacetime flying with 44 was absolute wizard.
CB: So you finished your tour on 44 then what did you do? Were you a flying officer then?
TP: I was doing my tour with 44 as is was in peacetime you get sent away on different courses and at some stages I was sent away on intelligence courses, PR courses, photographic intelligence courses, and so then from there, from 44 squadron I was posted via 3 Group Headquarters for three months in Intelligence, of course with the squadron leader, and then I was moved to Headquarters Bomber Command in the Intelligence Section of the ‒, 1,2,3,4 of us. I was then responsible for target information for exercises and they used to collect information as to what to use, what place in England to use as targets, and I’d work ‒, I’d work during the operation down in the ops room, which was quite a thing when I come to think of it. This was where Butcher Harris used to control me from.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Anyway me, then being a commissioned officer in the secretarial branch, I had to do an accounting course, so off to an accounting course to Hereford, and my first accounting post was at Bridgnorth in Shropshire and there I was collecting money from the bank, paying, doing airmen’s paper wage, and then became a flight lieutenant and I was then in charge of airmen’s pay at Padgate in Lancashire and then still as a flight lieutenant I was posted overseas to be an accounting officer at RAF Mauripur just outside Karachi in Pakistan. That was quite a job. I had to pay not only the three hundred-odd airmen of the unit (it was a staging post) I had to pay the airmen and officers that had been seconded to the Pakistan Air Force and also those RAF personnel that were seconded to the embassy in Karachi and I remember my first visit to the embassy, only to find out that the Wing Commander that had been my Wing Commander as intelligence officer at Headquarters Bomber Command, was there as the group captain air attaché [laugh]. Is someone at the door, did I see the door move?
CB: It’s just ‒
TP: Not to worry [laugh].
CB: Small world.
TP: Anyway, that was a two year posting and it was pretty hot, bouts of dysentery, fortunately it was close to the coast and we had a lido down at the coast and we could go and swim and stay the night. But the conditions around Karachi was horrendous. It was just after the partition of India and Pakistan, where they segregated the Indians, the Hindus on the east side and the Muslims on the west side, and the squalor of the camps was awful. I had a ‒, I had a Pakistani batman, Ashworth, he was very good, do your kit, your dhobi every day because you used to sweat a lot because of the heat. It was just a flat barren airfield.
CB: This is Pakistan as an independent country?
TP: Pakistan Air Force place, they were flying there.
CB: What did they fly?
TP: They were flying Harvards. They were the sort of things training’s for [laugh] and the admin officer on the unit was a pilot, he was a pilot, and at that time pilots were required to keep in flying practice so what he used to do was borrow a Pakistani aircraft, a Harvard, and I used to go with him and I learnt to fly Harvards. Oh, I had fun flying a Harvard with him until I sent in the bills to headquarters and then they stopped the flying [laugh], yeah.
CB: Yeah, amazing.
TP: I had fun flying Harvards.
CB: So back from Pakistan, where did you go then?
TP: I’d been out of the country two years. By then I was courting my second wife, bless her heart. Where do you think they posted me after three ‒, three months at an administrative course in Norfolk?
CB: Orkneys?
TP: Bircham Newton.
CB: Oh right.
TP: I was sent to the Isle of Man.
CB: Yes.
TP: Way out of England again to train officers [laugh].
CB: Quite a journey.
TP: Oh dear, and then as time went on I was promoted to the squadron leader, quite out of the blue, and told to report to the AOC of Maintenance Command. Hello, hello, come in.
Other: Sorry.
TP: Ah, can I have a cup of tea for my guest please? He’s a very important guest this man. The AOC, Maintenance Command, he says, ‘Page,’ he says, ‘I want you to take over a squadron of administrative personnel to support an airfield construction branch controlled by a wing commander and a squadron leader to the Isle of Kilda in the middle of the Atlantic.’ Oh how much time? Altogether I was out of England for five years. Bless poor Cecilia. Cecilia bless her, trained as a state registered nurse whilst I was away. Anyway, after that, after I’d finished that, believe it or not, I was appointed Senior Accounting Officer at Uxbridge, at Uxbridge, the station where I’d joined up. Imagine my feelings walking through the gate. Eighteen years before I’d walked through that gate to join up and now I was to be the Senior Accounting Officer in charge of all the finances. That was good, that was good anyway. At one stage I got a duty, a royal duty in St Pauls Cathedral, when the Queen was there, I was there as an usher. [Background noises].
CB: Thank you very much.
Other: Sorry, I spilled a bit, think I filled it up too much.
CB: Thank you love.
TP: And the squadron, the station got up a concert party and I got involved in that and we put on a Christmas show in St Clement Danes Church [laugh]. So what happened after Uxbridge? Three years in the Ministry of Defence, in the Personnel Department, and occasionally I was required to do duty overnight and weekends as duty Personnel Officer in case there was any flap on. And then I lived out at Watford at the time and commuted into London every day because you had to find your own accommodation. The three years passed very pleasantly and then again I was posted overseas, Germany for three years. I went as Senior Accounting Officer at Wildenrath in Germany just over the Dutch border. There, believe it or not, I had five hundred Germans on my payroll, plus all the RAF side of it. I was responsible for pay and conditions and court martial and everything to do with personnel B2, B3, B4 and that lasted three years and that was very enjoyable. It was.
CB: Cecilia was with you then?
TP: Pardon?
CB: Cecilia was with you then.
TP: No, she wasn’t. She was still in England. She was still at ‒. Anyway, what was I saying? Oh yes.
CB: Paying all these Germans and British people.
TP: I mean, going to places I’d been out to bomb, Gelsenkirchen. I was close up to the Ruhr you see. It was funny really. At one stage a collection of officers, Army and Navy, went on a goodwill tour to the Bürgermeister at Hamburg and we were in the Bürgermeister’s office. He’d got great big maps on the wall, a great picture of Hamburg as it was and Hamburg ‒, no, was it? As it had been built, Hamburg as it had been rebuilt and Hamburg as it was when we knocked it down. I was stood at the back of the blooming crowd of officers were listening to this story. I thought, ‘My God, I helped knock it down.’ [Laugh].
CB: Amazing.
TP: Oh dear, oh dear. Beautiful thing was I had a fortnight’s leave every ‒, each year, so Cecilia came out and the first time I hired a caravan because I had a car with a towing bar ‘cause I was doing a lot of gliding stuff and I picked her up at Ostend and we got in the caravan and we towed all the way down into Austria, stopping here and there. We parked in Salzburg. Oh what a lovely city is Salzburg. We had a wonderful fortnight’s holiday. The following year on the fortnight we just got in the car and drove where the car would take us and that too was wonderful. We went down to Bavaria and Switzerland and Austria and it was really wonderful. I learnt a lot. I thoroughly enjoyed it. We both did of course. Then what happened after that? I got a home posting, OC Personnel at RAF Swinderby in Lincolnshire, as the OC Personnel and then by then time was getting on and I got a letter from the Air Ministry saying there was no more promotion unless I was promoted to wing commander and I thought I can’t go on like this, Cecilia and I had been separated too much and too long, ‘I think I’ll take my retirement,’ and at that time, I don’t make a lot of this because ‒, oh yes, I was in my office one morning and the telephone rang. He said, ‘This is the bank manager. Have you any personnel coming out of the service who would like a job in a bank? I’m setting up a new bank in Lincoln.’ I said, ‘I’ll have a look at my records Sir and see if I’ve got anybody.’ Next day I thought of this and I’d just got this letter from the Ministry saying there was no more promotion unless ‒. I rang him back the next day and said, ‘I’m interested but,’ I said, ’You’ll have to wait six months for me.’ He said, ‘I’m prepared to do that.’ And so, much to my dismay and regret, I had to leave the service and join the bank in Lincoln. Mind you it was very helpful in the following years ‘cause I got two pensions, RAF pension, bank pension, old age pension. I wouldn’t be where I am today if it hadn’t been for that. I can afford to pay for this now.
CB: That’s really good, isn’t it? Look, this is getting cold so
TP: I’ll just have a drink of tea.
CB: I’ll just stop for a minute.
TP: I hadn’t realised we’d run into tea-time. I was a founder member of the Gliding and Soaring Association and at one stage when I was at the Ministry of Defence I was the Treasurer.
CB: That was based at Bicester, wasn’t it?
TP: The first aero-tow. You’re talking about aero-towing.
CB: I used to do that, yep.
TP: I was running the ‒, I’d been on a couple of er ‒, gliding courses with ‒, at the gliding school and I was running the Cosford Gliding Club and we had a two-seater Sedbergh and as we were close within thirty miles of the Long Mynd in Shropshire we thought we’d get more flying on the ridge so we trailed the two-seater Sedbergh up to the Longmynd and parked it there but couldn’t get the airmen there. Transport, nobody had any transport. It was awfully difficult to get them to the Mynd so it wasn’t viable, so we pressed on at Cosford. I suddenly realised it was wind wasted so I thought we must bring it back to Cosford from the Long Mynd which is about thirty miles away so I thought, ‘How do I do that? How do I get it back?’ ‘Ah,’ I said, ’The only way to get it back is by aero-tow.’ Well, I’d never done an aero-tow. I’d read up the books, you know, and I got in touch with a tug pilot at Harden in Cheshire and I asked Tony about it and he said, ‘Yes, on a suitable day,’ he says, ‘I’ll take you there and we’ll bring it back.’ We flew up to the Long Mynd which wasn’t an airfield as such.
CB: No.
TP: There was a ground engineer there on permanent duty with him and there was one another. Anyway, we managed to get the Sedbergh out of the hangar, rigged it, put a bag of sand in the second pilot’s seat, positioned oneself back from the hedge [?] and all was ready. Off we went. First aero-tow. It was rough. It was [emphasis] rough but anyway soon settled down and soon find your position and then a very pleasant aero-tow for about thirty miles back to Cosford. That’s the first aero-tow I’d ever done.
CB: Amazing.
TP: Nobody taught me.
CB: No.
TP: And then we put it to good use at Cosford. And then I was moved from Bridgnorth to Padgate which was quite a way away from Cosford. I couldn’t get there and so I joined the Derbyshire and Lancashire Gliding Club at Camp Hill. Now that was wonderful. Wave flights up to six, seven thousand feet, smooth air, hands off the controls almost. Lovely. But then of course you didn’t prolong the flight because you only had an hour because there were a lot of other people wanting to have a turn. It was lovely civilian gliding club. At one stage, when was it? When I was at Bomber Command I crewed for two RAF pilots who were flying an Olympia in this championship, the 1953 Championships, and oh what was his name? Anyway, he finished up as a wing commander at Cranwell. We picked him up once. He landed from Camp Hill at Skegness, as far as you could go before being over the sea, and when we found him, when we as a crew we had an RAF MT [?] driver in an RAF vehicle, and when we found him the Olympia was de-rigged and standing up by the side of a pub. The pilot was inside with the local policeman drinking. Oh he trailed all the way back. Next time it was my turn. Er ‒, was it my turn? I can’t remember which way round it was now. I know I flew there two years running. In the meantime I joined the Lancashire, Lancashire and Sheffield. Sheffield, what County was there?
CB: Derby.
TP: Anyway ‒.
CB: Oh Sheffield, Yorkshire.
TP: Yeah, anyway, I joined the civilian’s club and I managed to do my thirty miles from Camp Hill to Lindholme in an Olympia. But one of my best flights was later on from the RAF Centre at Bicester, um, I did a hundred mile Gull flight from Bicester to Swanton Morley.
CB: I know it, yeah.
TP: In one of the more super jobs. Coming back on the Sunday morning, this was the Sunday, coming back the Sunday morning through Cambridge a wheel came off the trailer. Fortunately there was a gliding club at Waterbeach and so we got in touch with them and they lent us a trailer and in the streets of Cambridge we unloaded it from one to the other and I got in touch with Marshall’s Airfield, the engineering works, if they’d collect the trailer and repair it, and it was late Sunday afternoon when I arrived back at Bicester. It was quite a weekend that was. I’m talking too much.
CB: It’s alright. That’s really good. I’m going to stop you because your supper’s getting cold. Thank you very much Thomas. That’s been really useful.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Thomas James Page
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-02
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APageTJ160702
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:07:38 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lincoln
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Essen
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Wassenberg
Alps
Italy
Italy--La Spezia
Zimbabwe
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-04
1942
1943
1944
Description
An account of the resource
Thomas Page grew up in a farming family before joining the Royal Air Force in 1940, training as a flight mechanic. He was initially posted to 257 Squadron (Hurricanes) but soon went to Gloucester to train as a fitter from where he was posted to 71 Maintenance Unit at Slough. Here he recovered crashed RAF and German aircraft. Responding to a requirement for flight engineers, he went to RAF St Athan for training and then to a Heavy Conversion Unit to meet his crew. Flying in Manchesters, he recalls the engine problems that the type suffered from.
Posted to 49 Squadron, he began his tour with an operation to La Spezia. Thomas describes his various experiences during the tour including bad weather over the Alps, running off the runway at RAF Fiskerton and crew injury. He describes operations to Essen, Dusseldorf, Nuremberg and to Hamburg for the first use of Window. He details his duties during these operations.
Completing his tour, Thomas was commissioned and posted back to RAF St Athan to train flight engineers. After the war he flew in Lincolns and was part of a goodwill tour of Rhodesia. Trained in intelligence, Thomas was posted to No. 3 Group Headquarters and then Bomber Command Headquarters before retraining as an accountant and personnel officer. Then he undertook postings to RAF Bridgnorth, Karachi, and RAF Wildenrath.
Thomas describes touring Europe with his wife before his final posting, to RAF Swinderby as officer commanding personnel. Here he left the RAF to work in a bank in Lincoln. During his service Thomas took up gliding, a hobby he continued in civilian life.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
44 Squadron
49 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
fitter airframe
flight engineer
flight mechanic
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hurricane
Lancaster
Lincoln
Manchester
military service conditions
mine laying
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Fiskerton
RAF St Athan
sport
training
Window
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1123/11614/ASimmondsJE171114.1.mp3
75368cc2130c56e3cb7dcd43cae774fc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Simmonds, Jack Edward
J E Simmonds
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Jack Simmonds (1920 - 2020, 67595 Royl Air Force). He flew operations as pilot with 77 Squadron until he was shot down and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-14
Rights
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Simmonds, JE
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CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Jack Simmonds today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Jack’s home and it is Tuesday the 14th of November 2017. Thank you, Jack for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Jack’s son, Paul. So, Jack, first of all perhaps could you tell us where and when you were born please and what your family background was?
JS: Yes. Yes. Firstly, I was born on the 8th of December 1920 and I was born in Gillingham in Kent and my father was a serving officer in the Royal Air Force. We, he had moved around a great deal and at that particular stage my mother had bought a house in Gillingham and that’s why I was born there. Otherwise we have no connection at all with that particular area. Fairly early on, when I was about five or six my father was posted to Egypt, and we moved out there and I stayed there for six years. I went to school in Victoria College in Alexandria and came back to the UK. As I said I was about six years, and we came back to Gillingham in Kent. I went for a short period to King’s, sorry to the Mathematical School at Rochester and when my father was posted again as also as people do we wondered around the UK following, following the parent. And my father was posted to Halton near Aylesbury and I spent about a year at Aylesbury Grammar School. Subsequently he was posted down to Worthy Down in Hampshire and we moved down to Winchester. I spent really the rest of my schooling at Peter Symonds School in Winchester, and I boarded there for a while when my father was posted away from Winchester to Brize Norton in Oxfordshire. I left school at the age of eighteen from, from Winchester and at that time was 1939 and the war was just about to start. After some discussion with my parents, I didn’t want to get conscripted into the Army or the Navy so I went to Oxford and volunteered to become a pilot. Now, it was difficult at that stage to select what category of aircrew you wanted to join but I was fortunate that, presumably because of my connection with the Air Force, they agreed that I should be nominated for pilot. Now, after that very little happened. I spent nearly six months at Selwyn College in Cambridge where they, I suppose tried to indoctrinate us in what the Air Force was about and doing some odd things like stripping down a machine gun and that sort of thing. And after that I was posted to — I can’t remember my number. I think it was 11 Elementary, Elementary Flying Training School at Coventry, and I obviously learned to fly and was taught flying on Tiger Moths. Now, at that stage of the war where the air force was extremely short of pilots, they were being shot down and killed all over the place, and for some reason or other I was not sent from Elementary Flying Training School to Flying Training School. They for some reason decided that they would try and see if they could avoid the elementary, the Flying Training School stage. So we were sent, about six of us from, from Coventry — or not. No. We weren’t all from Coventry. They were from, I think around the country, down to Abingdon. To the, I think it was number 11 Operational Training Unit. I’m not quite sure of the number. And we were taught, we were then presented with the fact that we were going to go straight on to the operational aircraft. the Whitley. From the Tiger Moth straight to Whitley. And we spent, in fact really we were quite an embarrassment because we were just airmen. We weren’t NCOs. We weren’t officers. We couldn’t use the sergeants’ mess, couldn’t use the officers’ mess. So, eventually they cleared a couple of married quarters and gave us those and allocated us a corner of the sergeant’s mess to eat and so on. I stayed there until I was qualified and in that same time I got my wings. And I stayed at Abingdon for probably about four months, I can’t remember exactly until I was qualified as a, as a Whitley pilot and then posted to 51 Squadron in Dishforth. I did my first couple of operations. My first operations were from Dishforth, and after about, I don’t know how many months — probably two or three months, I was commissioned. I was — by the way when I left Abingdon I was then made a sergeant. So I was a sergeant at Dishforth and then suddenly I was commissioned and moved, posted to Topcliffe, 77 Squadron. They also, of course had Whitleys. There was two squadrons there. 77 and 102 I think. The — I started my operational flying there obviously and on about my seventh or eighth one, I can’t remember, operation I was shot down over the Ruhr and we had a little bit of a problems maintaining our — by the way my navigator was wounded when we were caught by anti-aircraft fire. He got a lump of flak through his chest and so we obviously couldn’t bale out because he was flat out on the floor. And we went on for about half an hour or so on one, on one engine and eventually we, that failed and we crash landed in a sort of a swamp, about, I don’t know how many miles, about, about twenty miles short of Eindhoven I think. The, the swamp itself was not quite deep enough to sink but nearly, and I remember getting out and going around the back, getting the back door open and trying to smash the IFF thing that we were told to try and destroy if we had a chance. And during this period we got the navigator out and sat him on the top of the fuselage. He was still alive, and by that time there were Germans who apparently, we subsequently found had been following us by radar, Germans coming up the road which was about, probably about a couple of hundred metres from where we landed. And they took us to a radar station and then I went off to jail in Rotterdam. And I was there for — I don’t know really, probably three, two or three weeks. And the interesting thing about that was we were, I was interviewed by a so-called Red Cross person who offered me cigarettes and things and then tried to, to find out where I came from and me and my squadron who — you know. Trying to interrogate, and then after about three weeks in jail I was sent down to Frankfurt to the — I think it was a reception camp. And I remember being quite, I suppose shocked by the fact that some of the inmates there had settled into the, to the arrangements in the camp and were apparently cooperating I suppose with the locals. The only chance, the only time they tried then to, to interrogate me was at, for some reason they removed all my clothes and I was in this room and this, this Hauptman, a major [pause] He was a Luftwaffe major, immaculately dressed in white and boots and all that and tried to investigate where I came from and who I was and where, you know what the names of my crew were, and what my, my target for that night was and so on. Just generally tried to, to find out information. The next thing that happened about six or eight of us were shoved on a train and sent down to Salzburg. We were in — I can’t remember the name of the — I think it was Oflag something 6. I don’t know. So, it was army. It was army officers there and they were again a bit settled in their ways. They were a little bit resentful of, of half a dozen young and feisty aircrew coming in. We stayed there for, I can’t remember, say three months. I don’t know. And then we were sent to Leipzig. Now, Salzburg to Leipzig was a long way [laughs] and we went unfortunately by cattle truck, and I think we took seven days, and it wasn’t a very pleasant time as you imagine. When we got to, to the camp at Leipzig it had just been evacuated by Russian prisoners of war and was really derelict. There was nothing there. Virtually. And I know one thing that I had obtained when I was down at Salzburg was that I met a friend of mine who was an army officer who I had known some couple of years before. And he managed to obtain for me a nice blanket. A pale blue blanket which, I enjoyed mine. And I got to Leipzig. The first thing they did, one goon said, ‘That’s mine.’ and whipped it. The only thing that really strikes me about Lubeck was that it was bare. You know, it was very, very austere. We, we were very, very badly treated there. Very poor food. In fact we managed to catch the camp cat and cooked that. We went from there to Warburg to another army camp. That was about, Warburg was about the centre of Germany somewhere. I’m not quite sure. I know a lot of army, army people there. They were all, of course they were all officers and most had been, been there since, since 1939/40. That sort of time. We were there for, I don’t know probably six months at least when we upped again and were sent off to Poland. We went to a place called Posen (Poznan?) I think it was in Poland. Which was not very far from Danzig. About forty miles south of Danzig. The, the terrain there was very, very soft and sandy, and I know that particularly because digging tunnels was very, very difficult. You, you were going through the ground and you had behind you had [unclear] and that was very scary. We stayed there for perhaps [pause] perhaps a year. I don’t know. But we were posted or were posted, sent off to Stalag Luft, Stalag Luft 3. Now, people first, everybody says to me, ‘Did you go to Stalag Luft 3?’, and I said, ‘Yes’, and they said, ‘Were you in the big escape?’ And people didn’t understand that in Stalag Luft 3 there were two camps. The North Camp and the East Camp, and I was in the East Camp, and the big escape took place from the North Camp. The only escape of significant importance I think from our place was the two that got away in the horse. The — we used to take it out every day and pop it in the middle of a field and little did they realise that when we carried it out we had two people in them, and we put it down in the same place and they were digging a tunnel out and —
CJ: This was the wooden exercise horse if I remember.
JS: The wooden horse. Yes. And we were fairly, it was fairly easy to dispose of all the tunnels there because when we carried the, the wooden horse out to the playing field the, there were big paths through sort of sacks we’d made of our bed blankets and we could walk around the perimeter track and sort of let this go. So all the rubbish that they had dug from that tunnel was disposed around the camp. These two were successful. They got out and I think both of them made, made it to Sweden, I think. I think, and I think one was Swedish at any rate. We stayed there. I was in Stalag Luft 3 for about two years, and one night they, because by that time the movement of the war the Russians were, were approaching from the east. And incidentally in where I was in the, in Stalag Luft 3 we had what we called JH which stands for Jimmy Higgins. Anybody who’s been in Stalag Luft 3 East camp would know who that is because we’d arranged — we had a boffin who had got, bribed the guard to bring him bits of wireless equipment and we’d built alongside a table a radio. And so we knew exactly what was going on from UK, and every night, at whatever time it was we used to close down the place. Make certain there were no, no ferrets underneath there. People. Ferrets who wandered around looking for tunnels, and they used to give us an update of the UK news. So, although the Germans were, were propagating all the news over the biggest tunnels we actually knew what was really going on. We left there one, I think Friday night in, in February I think it was when the Russians were approaching, and the Germans decided to walk us out and we walked from there to [pause] I’m trying to remember the name of the place. A place called Luckenwalde which was about, I suppose about thirty kilometres south of Berlin. And we hadn’t been there very long and again I don’t know how long that was before a Russian small tank group probably consisting of six Soviet tanks arrived, and we fortunately had a Russian speaker. Somebody within, within our group. No matter what you wanted. Could speak Swahili or whatever. There was always somebody there because you know they gathered the aircrew from quite a wide range of, of population, and he was dealing with the, with the young I suppose. He was a lieutenant and I can remember being very amazed that all the tanks, these six or so tanks covered with people, Russians, and he said half of them were females and you couldn’t tell. And he said, one of the things he said was that he had great trouble in in communicating with his troop because they didn’t all speak the same language. Some came from Uzbekistan or somewhere. They spoke, didn’t speak Russian, and so he had great trouble. I know we had great difficulty with one of their, the Russians who decided he wanted to take watches, and he went around some of the officers and sort of said, ‘Your watch’, and we complained to this young lad, this young officer, and he said [unclear] and so he called this fellow. This fellow had a whole heap of watches at the time. And they took him out and shot him. Bang. One of the things that was extraordinary that happened that one of the tanks decided to go around the camp taking down all the barbed wire. Just tore the lights and the communications, everything with them. The lot. So, we really were, we were really a bit concerned whether the locals were going to be friendly or not, and I can remember one morning when we were sort of, we were free really. We could have gone anywhere. We went off to a building we could see about a half a mile away and it turned out to be one of these army stores and I could have picked up all sorts of gorgeous things there. Like, do you know the lovely, those lovely red flags they had in Germany with the big swastika on the bottom? But they were much too heavy to carry. But I did pick up a few, a few German — not medals but they were, they were campaign things, and I’ve still got those somewhere. We, we stayed there sort of really in limbo for a while. And I was down on the gate. We tried to maintain a semblance of, of a gate when some Americans arrived in a, in a, I think it’s a scout car, you know. One of the things that you drove. You drive one way or the other. And so two of us got on that one and they took us back to their base and then took us up to Brussels, and I flew from Brussels back to the UK. And that was sort of my war.
CJ: Very interesting. Thank you. So, what happened to you when you got home then and what did you do following on from that?
JS: Well, the end of the war I was sent up somewhere. I can’t remember where. Up in the Midlands. Really, I suppose to rehabilitate myself. And they put us all around the place like down a coal mine and up a and up a steel mill and those sorts of things. And eventually I decided that I would attempt to stay in the air force. And they sent me to, to Cairo. And I was at the headquarters in Cairo for about six months and that started to fold up and then I was sent to, to Lydda which is now Lod, in Palestine as the station adjutant. And I stayed there for about — oh I don’t know. Six months. Until they decided, the Air Force decided to give me a permanent commission in the Air Force. And I went from there to the army really. I was sent as the adjutant of an army cooperation squadron, air squadron which was flying Oxfords. And so I spent about three — oh more than that I think. Probably a year or more with the army. Flying officers all over Palestine and it was very fortunate really in a way because you had your own private aeroplane really. I used to fly off to Oman for the weekend and down to the Canal Zone for the weekend. You know, that’s as if I had a taxi of my own. Then I was very, very sports minded at the time and I was playing hockey for the squadron against another army unit and the Irish Fusiliers I think it was, and the goalkeeper smashed me across the face and knocked my front teeth out. And they decided to send me home to try and get that fixed up. And so that ended my, my time in the Middle East. And when I got back to the UK having been fixed up with some teeth, they sent me up to somewhere. Wyton or somewhere, to fly Wellington, Wellingtons, Wellingtons. Well, I converted on to Wellingtons then. Having done that they sent me to up, further up to Yorkshire to convert onto the replacement for the Lancaster which was the Lincoln, and of course the Lincoln was never introduced into the Air Force. Although I did about a hundred hours or a hundred and fifty hours on Lincoln. That’s really, they withdrew it for some reason or other. And I was sent down to, to Calshot to convert to flying boats and I flew Sunderlands. I converted on to Sunderlands there. Then after conversion was posted to Pembroke Dock. 201 Squadron. And I stayed there for a couple of years I suppose when we, we did a Cook’s Tour of, of America in the flying boat. We went to Newfoundland and Iceland and Newfoundland and Virginia and Jamaica and so on just going really on a jolly. Whilst I was at Pembroke Dock I was flight commander of the squadron because our squadron commander had had gone a bit — he, taking off one night he hit a, hit something with, with his throat and knocked that off and he went a bit queer so I was flight commander of the squadron and they one day they came in about, about Battle of Britain time asking for an aeroplane to go up to the Thames. So being flight commander I said, ‘That’s mine.’ So, I went up there and met the Port of London Authority and they drove me up and down the Thames awhile on one of their boats and I selected somewhere to land down near Greenwich. And I landed for Battle of Britain weekend at Greenwich and this [unclear] from the Port of London Authority met me and led me all the way up to Tower Bridge and they opened Tower Bridge for me [laughs] And they’d already put a buoy just outside Queen’s Gate and I moored up there and stayed in the Tower of London with the, the commander. I can’t remember what they were. The Scots Guards, I think. I can’t remember. Stayed there for six months. Sorry, six days, and then we, then all we did was return I think. We just about turned and drove back down to Greenwich and took off and straight over Buckingham Palace. Right down the Mall. And then I went back to, to Pembroke Dock. And after Pembroke Dock I was promoted there, and sent to St Mawgan as the chief ground instructor of the Maritime School there. And I stayed there for [pause] I don’t know, six months, a year, and then I was posted to the Navy in Portland. They had what they called an Access B tactical teacher. Which our job, our job was to work out the, the destroyers for the Navy. And we had a large building in which we laid on games and I had a — my colleagues were a submariner and task officer torpedo anti-submarine and myself as the airman. And we used to play games for them and had a great screen and projected all the activities while they were closed up back somewhere in the, in the back of beyond. And then having run games for them we would then give them what’s up, what they should have been doing and that was — I spent again a year, two years at, at Portland doing that job. Then I went to Saffron Walden which was part of the Royal Air Force Technical School. I spent a year there doing a signals course, and the object of the exercise was to, to produce a band of officer who could act as, as a liaison between the technician and the aircrew. And so we went for a year. We wandered all around the country and halfway around the world too looking at radars and communications systems and all that rubbish. And then, then I was posted to, to a job at Northwood in Middlesex, and I stayed there for probably about four months or more. Maybe six months. How long were you, were we at Northwood?
PS: We missed, we missed out Cyprus dad.
JS: Oh God. I went from — no went from —
PS: We went from Medmenham to Cyprus.
JS: Medmenham. We went — just a minute. We went from Portland to, no we went we went from Debden the school, Technical College, to Medmenham and then Medmenham we went to, to Northwood.
PS: Cyprus. Medmenham to Cyprus.
JS: Cyprus. Cyprus. We stayed there for what, two years?
PS: Two and a half years. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. And I came back from there, and —
PS: Did six months in West Malling.
JS: Yeah. Well, I wasn’t posted there.
PS: No. It was just a stopover.
JS: I was only there for accommodation because we got a married quarter there. And then from there I went to, to Northwood. Stayed in Northwood for a while.
PS: That was two years.
JS: Was it two years? Yeah. And then I was posted to the Air Ministry to, to be sort of a PA to the, he was an army general who was head of the Joint Services Communications.
PS: We went from Northwood to Lindholme.
JS: No. I didn’t. No. I didn’t. I went to this job in the, in the, in the Air Ministry which was, really it was a [unclear] I didn’t like at all and I got, I got on to the, to the Air Ministry, the people in the in P staff in the Air Ministry and said, ‘I want out’, and they said, ‘You can, if you wish to, retire.’ So, I said, ‘Right. I’m going.’ And I retired from my job in the Air Ministry and I came, we bought this house. I came down here. I got a job. Incidentally, before I decided to leave the Air Force I decided to find out a little bit about business and, you know trying to get a job. And so I went to, I think it was the South West College to do an HNC in Business Studies and just after that the, I think it was Wilson started the Open University and I joined that as well and got a Bachelor of Arts and that in Sociology and Economics. And later on when I was again working down in Maidstone I joined Kent University and got a Masters in Management. But I jump from leaving the Air Force to getting a job. I joined a management consultancy in London and spent probably nearly six months or more than that. More like three years wandering around the country doing jobs for them. All sorts of investigatory things like, for instance I went to, to a, an architect in London and they said to me we want to set up a new salary scheme. And so I spend my time, you know interviewing all the locals and deciding what I think [unclear] I did some work in local authorities. I worked in a number of, of — I worked down in Brecon. I worked in many of the London boroughs and after I’d been there for a while I was getting a bit fed up with moving around again like I’d done in the Air Force and I found a job in Maidstone as the personnel manager of the Borough Council down there. I stayed there for five years I think and I retired completely from there.
CJ: Very good.
JS: Then I played golf for a while.
PS: For a long time.
JS: For a few years. And then I became too old to play golf.
CJ: One question about aircraft. Coming back to your RAF times, given the experience you had on the later types, how did they compare with the Whitley that you were flying during the war?
JS: Oh. The Whitley was antediluvian. I mean it was so slow. It had no, no navigation device at all. No Gee. No H2S. Nothing like that. So, you were relying on DR really. Dropping a flare out and taking a drift and trying to calculate where you were on your course and speed calculator. You could carry a four thousand pound bomb. With that on board you could get to probably ten thousand feet. Twelve thousand feet perhaps if you were lucky. You could get about a hundred knots out of it [pause] downwind. No. It was, it was a terrible aeroplane. Awful. And it was so vulnerable you had a, you had a rear gunner, you had an upper gunner but night-time you couldn’t see a night fighter, you know. The, the defence. You were absolutely defenceless really and the attrition rate was very high.
CJ: And after the war were you able to keep in touch with people you knew from your squadron?
JS: No.
CJ: Or from the prisoner of war camps?
JS: No. No. I tried once to go to a Prisoner of War dinner in London. And it was really a failure because they’d all dispersed to other things and you had nothing in common anymore.
CJ: Was there a Squadron Association?
JS: I didn’t follow it up at all.
CJ: And how do you think Bomber Command were treated after the war for those — ?
JS: I never had a problem personally but I think that one of the things that one understood about Bomber Command was that they felt that they were sort of aggressive rather than, rather than defensive. But I mean Fighter Command are completely different or Bomber Command were. Well they’re not — I don’t think they appreciated what we were trying to do. Anybody. I never had any trouble personally.
CJ: Well, thank you very much for speaking to us today.
JS: That’s alright.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Edward Simmonds
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-14
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASimmondsJE171114, PSimmondsJE1701
Format
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00:49:41 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Poland
England--Yorkshire
Poland--Żagań
Temporal Coverage
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1941
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Simmonds was the son of an RAF serviceman. As a result his childhood was spent moving around a great deal including a few years in Egypt. He joined the RAF and began training as a pilot. He joined 51 Squadron as a Whitley pilot at RAF Dishforth before transferring to 77 Squadron at RAF Topcliffe. Coming under attack the navigator was injured and so was unable to bale out forcing Jack to crash land. The surviving crew became Prisoners of War. He was sent to Stalag Luft 3 where he took an active part in the Wooden Horse escape.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Chris Johnson
51 Squadron
77 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Dulag Luft
Lincoln
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Abingdon
RAF Dishforth
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Topcliffe
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 3
Sunderland
the long march
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1036/11408/AMorganVT170908.2.mp3
12d992549bbfd624a2cc3b28fbdb104e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Morgan, Vernon Thomas
V T Morgan
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Vernon Thoas Morgan (1921 - 2020, 1145635 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer and pilot with 44 and 619 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Morgan, VT
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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This interview is being held by Claire Monk with Vernon Morgan on Friday the 7th September 2017 on behalf of the International Bomber Command.
CM: Right, so, when we spoke earlier you mentioned that you were born and you grew up in Cardiff.
VM: That’s right.
CM: [Pause] And you are an only child.
VW: I am.
CM: What can you tell me about that time?
VM: Well it’s interesting, only child, but next door to me, next door but one, I had a family that had three sons and a daughter and we more or less lived with each other; as far as I’m concerned they were nearly brothers and sisters really. So I was never lonely. I went to school in Cardiff, I went to primary school and an elementary school and then I went to Cathays High School, where I did all the normal things, got my matriculation certificate and then started to look for a job. Sat the civil service exam, very fortunate, nineteen thousand sat it and one thousand were successful, and I passed, and I was in these days you didn’t have any choice about argy-bargy you were told where to go [emphasis]. So I was told to go to RA ROF, Royal Ordnance Factory, Hereford to start work, and off I went. Went into digs there, stayed in somebody’s house and I went in the accounts department of the Royal Ordnance Factory. And that’s where I stayed until the war came. And then I decided to volunteer before I was called up, and I decided I wanted to go in the air force. I had horrible feelings about ground warfare in the army which I didn’t fancy and I didn’t like the sea, so I said well the alternative’s the air force so I joined up. And the only thing they could tell me I could do was a wireless operator. So I said so be it. So I went into the RAF, I went into Blackpool on er August Bank Holiday Monday I was called up there, and in whatever date that was, forgive me [rustle of paper] I’ll look. It was in August 1941 and I went to Blackpool and I started on a wireless operators course and eventually I decided that I’d volunteer for aircrew while I was there. Big thing that because you became elite [emphasis] then, and you got a white flash in your cap and I was accepted, and that started my aircrew training. Um, which I eventually was moved from Blackpool down to the aircrew recruiting centre in Lloyds in London, Lords cricket ground which is where you started all everything to do with aircrew. And that was beginning of my travelling to be a pilot and I went to I don’t know what at Blackpool, I did a lot of medicals, got eyesight and heart and everything, you know you had to make sure you were hundred per cent fit and then I went to a little aerodrome called Booker where I flew a Tiger Moth. And after about eight hours I went solo and they said right that’s it, you’re accepted now for full pilot training. So that was it, and I then waited about a bit, and [rustles of paper] checking on my on my log book to make sure I get my sequences right otherwise I’ll get everything wrong. Yes, for some reason then, I think I told you earlier, I went to RAF Hemswell, for four months and then I went to RAF Cottesmore. What I did there I’ve no idea [emphasis] and I couldn’t find out, so I was, I presume I had some ground training, cause they you did everything. You did meteorology, principles of flying and all sorts of things. I assume I did things like that and then that’s when I went to Booker for my aircrew check to see I was suitable and I was, and then I was waiting for a posting. And you got moved around quite a bit. I went to Brighton, in a hotel. Erm, my first bit of the war happened there [emphasis] because we were doing some again some class in a building on the front which they’d obviously commandeered and we were sitting there doing whatever it is we were doing [chuckle] and a German fighter came across and strafed us so we all dived down on the floor [laugh] underneath the sort of desk and I thought oh yeah, there is a war on you know, and my first sort of indication and then eventually in February ’43 I got on a transport ship; hell on earth I’d call that, um it you know you were in hammocks, there weren’t enough hammocks to go round, always a scramble to find a hammock to sleep on. You were slept down in the bowels of the ship, long tables and the hammocks were strung up over it in the morning after we had to clear up the sick: lots of people were sick and and you had about you know twenty people or so on this table and one of them had to go and get the food from the galley so you trotted off, ship rocking, you trying to carry bowls of soup and things slopping about, and bring it down and serve the people on the table. It was pretty grim, and you know everything was overcrowded, very uncomfortable and you were told always to be ready to put life jackets on in case you were attacked so on. So, I wouldn’t call it a very pleasurable journey and eventually we arrived at Durban. And there we were greeted by cars hooting, people waving and the lady in white who was a traditional well known thing at Durban, who sang a welcome to you as you arrived. And er so we eventually disembarked and went to a camp – Clarewood Camp - where we were absolutely delighted. We could buy bananas and pears and oranges and apples and things we’d never seen at home and going into Durban and having bars of chocolate and going to the canteens there and having bacon and eggs and things, cost us about a shilling I think. So this was real real luxury life there. And then was posted to a little place called Nigel where we carried on with our flying training on Tiger Moths. And after we had finished all the trying flying training there on the Moths, um we went to another little drome called Potchefstroom [background noise] where we finished our flying and then we were posted then to 21 Air School at Kimberley. And this was a place where we were going to do all our flying and get our wings. And er I flew Oxfords there and you had a ‘cope’ sort of training with you. I had someone called Dick Teager who became the best man at my wedding actually and we trained together in the Oxford. Er, did usual things learning all about the flying and night flying and instrument flying, lots of time on the link trainer and er were there any adventures there? Well, there was one, [emphasis] yes, my co-pilot Dick Teager and I were on a navigation exercise and I was flying and he was doing the navigating, and after a little while there was a bang [emphasis] and the aircraft started to shudder. I ‘What the hell’s that?’ ‘Oh no I don’t know,’ he said. ‘Well something’s wrong,’ I said, ‘the aircraft is is shuddering,’ I said. ‘Go and see, find anything that’s loose or missing or something.’ I said. We had no idea really what the hell was going on. So he got up and he sort of crawled back in the aeroplane. He said ‘I can’t see anything wrong’ ‘I don’t like this I think we’d better go back and land,’ you see. I said then, and then suddenly there was another BANG! [emphasis] and I thought oh gawd and the aircraft was quiet and steady and I said ‘That’s very odd’ so I said ‘Well, I can’t see there’s any problem, it’s still flying all right.’ I tried the controls and I said ‘I think we’ll finish the exercise’ so he said ‘Yes okay,’ so off we went and did our exercise and then came back and landed at Kimberley and as we pulled up on to the you know, tarmac there to park the aircraft, one of the ground said [Shout] ‘What’s wrong with your left entry, your port engine there?’ [shout] I said ‘What do you mean?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘you’ve only got half a propeller!’ and he, I looked out and sure enough the propeller had two ends knocked off and I said ‘Well, I don’t understand that.’ Then I said, ‘Well what happened is one end came off that unbalanced things, set up a pressure, a tension and the other end came off to balance it and all was well.’ So then I had to appear before, he and I had to appear before the commanding officer. ‘Where have you been low flying?’ I said, ‘We haven’t been low.’ ‘Well how did you lose your propeller?’ I said ‘Look I don’t know.’ But, well he took a bit of persuading that we hadn’t done something wrong, anyway that was the one bit of excitement and [banging] yeah, the flying went alright we were you know spent a good time there, went to the cinema in the camp every Saturday and you know I said it was quite a good life really. We were. there was no sign of war there of course. Er we met girls in Kimberley, actually they were friends of people back at England who they told us to go and see them. So we went, and we went to the family and had meals with them and went out with them, and I said it was quite a good life and then eventually the day came when I got my wings, you know and Brigadier Baston, the commanding officer, pinned the wings on my chest and that was it. There was a little bit of argy-bargy about well what you do now and I said ‘Well, I presume I am going to go home now’ cause I said I had my eye on, I wanted to get back home, I had a girl waiting for me, and they said ‘Well you’ve done very well on navigating and you’ve done very well on instrument flying we think we could post you down to Capetown and you can become a navigator instructor.’ ‘Oh I don’t want to do that’ I said, I this wasn’t me being bold about wanting to fight the Germans, it was me just wanted to get back to England to see Cynthia. So ‘Oh no I don’t want that,’ well, ‘Also we could give you a posting to go to Bomber Command. To Coastal Command.’ ‘Oh no, I don’t want to do any of that, I want to get back to Britain, I want to go onto bombers over there you see.’ Anyway eventually after a lot of palaver, they agreed that I’d be posted back on bombers to England. So then again we had to wait and er for transport and eventually we got on a ship the Orontes I think it was called [cough] no this we did, that was our, we got on a ship that was a, a Polish sort of ship. It wasn’t a very nice ship and we went through the Suez Canal and we dropped off at Suez. We had to stay there for a while to get another ship. Suez was a funny area it was a sort of a desert and I can remember we had to wee in big funnels in the sand and there were warnings that er ‘Do not buy lemonade from local pedlars,’ because the lemonade is not very good it’s made up of urine and Nile water [laugh]. So anyway, we had and after that we got another boat, the Orontes and were on our way back home. And now this is a funny thing too. I can’t remember what port we arrived at whether it was Liverpool or Southampton, it was just a place that we were going to get off the boat and back home and we then we went to Harrogate which was a sort of holding centre, stayed in a hotel there and then I was posted to Perth which was an elementary flying training school with Tiger Moths. I don’t know going down a grade now, back on Tiger Moths, the idea was getting us back up familiarised with this country because over in South Africa you had big wide open spaces and if you saw a town you knew what is was ‘cause there wasn’t another one for hundreds of miles over here of course it was a conglomerate of things and you had to sort of start getting used to the different terrain and the fact that you had a problem knowing where you were so we, we spent some time at Perth and er after that I went to a senior NCO’s school at Whitley Bay. Now again I find it very difficult to know exactly and I can’t find out, I’ve looked it up on the internet, but you don’t get much joy, it was known as the commando course, and all I can remember doing there was scaling a cliff in Whitley Bay! [laugh] So er this was at the time of er the invasion of Europe in April ‘44 and after that, we went back to Harrogate. It then turned out that they didn’t know what to do with us; they had too many pilots and not enough aeroplanes. So we were having to get channelled into doing useful things. A colleague of mine went and drove engines, locomotives on shunting duties erm they couldn’t, they said we haven’t got any spaces on squadrons for you we can’t don’t know what to do so I was posted to another elementary flying school at Derby and from there they sent me out to a little aerodrome called Abbotts Bromley which was a subsidiary of Derby and I think I became the commanding officer there, because I was, it was a little outpost of Derby and there were about a dozen trainee pilots there just starting, and me. And, I had to, we had one aeroplane, Tiger Moth there and the instructors used to fly over from Derby every day and do their training with the lads. This was fine. I, it was a little aerodrome, I was in charge there, one of the trainees brought me a cup of tea in the morning, There was a local woman who acted as a chef there and she cooked me my meals in my own private little room. I thought this is the life, I hope they’ll forget my where I am and lose my records, I could stay here for the rest of the war! So I stayed there and it was quite good, you know, I used to have a little duty in the morning I just had to put out the T to show the way the wind was blowing, although why you did that when they had a wind sock and you could see which way the wind was blowing I don’t know. I kept my hand in flying and the instructors occasionally said ‘Come on, we better do some advanced flying, keep you in trim,’ so they came up with me and we did aerobatics and things and it was very good I, I er had quite a nice time there and erm I did something unorthodox there in the sense I would say well you know I’d like a weekend down in Cardiff to see my parents, so that’s all right you can fly down there in the Tiger Moth, can I? So anyway I [laugh] got in the Tiger Moth one Friday and set off for Cardiff you see. I had to land at Worcester and get refuelled, then I went off towards Cardiff and the weather came quite bad and I thought ‘Oh my gosh’ and then as I got up near Cardiff or up by Newport I could see all these barrage balloons with their cables I thought gawd I need to be careful don’t go too near cos I’m sure this is an unorthodox flight that I shouldn’t be doing, I’ll be in trouble, So anyway I managed to avoid the barrage balloons and I got to Cardiff airport and course it had one runway and it was right across wind and there was quite a strong wind as I can’t land on that, cross wind on a runway I’m only used to landing into wind on grass I don’t think I like that at all. So I flew over I flew into wind cross, low down on across towards the grass and waggled my wings you see, to say this is what I want to do you see. A red very light came on from the control tower, ‘Oh god,’ I thought ‘what’s that for?’ Does that mean that the ground is too rough or there’s potholes, or something and I can’t land there? I don’t know where else to go. [laugh] I won’t have enough fuel to go anywhere else apart from which, you didn’t have navigation aids I don’t know where else there is, so I’ve gotta land here. Well I flew round and I flew down and I picked a different spot fly into wind and waggle my wings as this is what I’ve gotta do: another red very light. ‘Oh god,’ so I thought, ‘Well, I’ve got to land here.’ So I turned around and did another circuit, came in and I got quite close down, see if I could see potholes or anything, I could, well I’ve gotta land I’ve got no alternative, I just hope it’s all right [laugh]. So I landed on the grass into wind everything okay, didn’t tip over, oh thank goodness for that, so I taxied round, back up to the tarmac in front of the control tower and switched off. And got my flying kit off and up into the control tower where there was a sergeant sitting there smoking his cigarette and as I went in, he said ‘Hello mate’ [bang]. I said ‘Hello,’ I said, ‘what was all that fuss about; what did you fire a red very at me for?’ ‘Oh I was just greeting you,’ he said. ‘What do you mean, greeting me?’ I said. ‘You fired a red very I was trying to say I want to land on the grass and you were indicating it was dangerous.’ ‘Oh no,’ he said, ‘No I was just greeting.’ ‘Well,’ I said ‘why didn’t you fire a bloody green?’ ‘Oh we’ve run out of those!’ he said. [laugh] So anyway that was all right, So anyway I had a nice weekend with my parents and flew back to Abbotts Bromley. Well, that wasn’t the end then, I then got shunted back to Harrogate, this is where you got while they tried to sort out what to do with you. And then they decided they’d post me to a place called RAF Madley which was near Hereford, that’s all right, as it was near my fiancé lived Hereford so thought that’s okay. So I went about and there they were flying Proctors training wireless operators and I was going to be a stooge pilot going up and flying wireless operators while they were doing whatever they do and so that was my assignation there. So I got onto a Proctor and I had my familiarisation flight to make sure I knew what to do with one and that was okay, so I then reported; I cycled away from Madley into Hereford, saw Cynthia and that was fine. And then I took my first official flight as a Proctor pilot with my group of wireless ops and their instructor, and the instructor was saying to me, because obviously they do navigation fixes and things, ‘Fly on such and such a course,’ you see. Yes, okay I did that, and then they say, ‘Now change course and fly somewhere.’ So I did that. And then they said, ‘Now do something else,’ so I flew that, did that, and then after a while they said, ‘Right, well the exercise is finished now, you can go back to the drome,’ see. I looked out of the window - where the hell am I? Cause I said I’d been so busy concentrating this is my first flight as pilot with these wireless ops on flying where they wanted me on the direction I was concentrating on that I hadn’t not looking where the hell I was going and look out the window and thought I I hadn’t any idea where the hell I am. And of course you looked down and it was just a conglomeration of towns and railway lines and you hadn’t a clue where you were, oh gawd, so well if I fly west, I’ll hit the coast and then I can see where I am, so I did that, and yes oh yes! I can see now and I’ve an idea now what I and I knew what course I had to fly to get back to Madley, which I did. Got back rather late, with a very irate duty pilot in the caravan, you know, that has to see you home, was being delayed going to lunch and very annoyed, so I landed there and I wasn’t very popular. I didn’t say I’d got lost, but, ‘What the hell are you so late,’ ‘Well,’ I said ‘These exercises take time,’ anyway that was my adventure at Madley, so I was still flying there so thought this is all right too I’m having a good old war, this is not too bad what can happen next? A posting came in. You’re going to St. Athan. St. Athan, near Cardiff, oh that’s not bad, that’s near home too, my parents are there I could live out I thought this is turning quite good this war, you know. Not as bad as I thought it would be. And er, it was a technical school and I thought what am I going there for? So I got to St. Athan and they said ‘You’re on a flight engineer’s course.’ ‘I’m on a what?’ ‘A flight engineer’s course.’ I said ‘What what am I on that for?’ ‘Well we’re short of flight engineers and we may be able to get you to a squadron as a flight engineer.’ ‘I don’t want to go to a squadron I’m a pilot!’ [emphasis] ‘Oh yeah, well you’ll still be a pilot.’ ‘Well,’ I said, ‘this all sounds a bit fishy to me.’ Anyway I had no alternative. I then did a course on the Merlin engine. Now I’m the least technical minded person you can imagine. And yes, theoretically, I learnt about the Merlin engine and I passed whatever it was there and they said ‘Right that’s it then.’ And er. ‘We’ll send you off and we hope you can get to a squadron.’ ‘Oh, all right.’ I then went to this place RAF Balderton. Now, I have no idea what I did there. I was there from er 29th of December 1944 to the 4th of January. Not a very long period, I have no idea what I did there. I can’t remember. All I can remember is it was perishing cold [emphasis]. Absolutely freezing and we had one of these stoves in the Nissen hut, burning wood. So all I all I slept in my flying clothes because it was so cold, and we found some old chairs and broke ‘em up and burnt them to keep warm that’s all I remember about Balderton. I don’t know why [emphasis] I was there, what [emphasis] I did there or anything else. And the next thing I was posted to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Swinderby. Oh, at last we’re getting somewhere near some flying now. There, I was introduced to a Lancaster and I did some training on a Lanc. I did circuits and bumps and got used to flying a Lanc, you see, and again [emphasis] I cannot remember exactly how I got crewed up. I, I’m not even sure exactly where it happened. I know that normally what happened with crewing is that was they crewed up everyone nearly except the flight engineer who joined at the last minute, I don’t know why exactly. But, anyway, I must have joined up and I went into a crew, an interesting crew because there was no Englishman in it. There was me a Welshman, there was a Dane, a Swede, and Canadians and that was my cosmopolitan crew you see. Okay, so be it. So anyway we finished all our training at Swinderby and at last, we got posted to a squadron which er was to Strubby where it was, or was it? [background noises] 619 Squadron at Strubby. And they didn’t know quite what to make of me. ‘Well, you’re down to fly as a flight engineer: you’re a pilot.’ I said ‘Yes, I am a pilot. And I’m not a flight engineer,’ I said ‘First of all I haven’t got a flight engineer badge, Secondly I haven’t got a flight engineer log book, I’ve only got a pilot’s log book.’ ‘Well, of course, you’re a pilot. You’ve got to have a pilot slot, you’ll be a second pilot. And doing flight engineer duties, but you’re a second pilot, that’s what you are.’ And the everybody wanted me to be their flight engineer cause they had a second pilot who could fly the bloody thing. [laugh] So anyway it was quite interesting I had to keep on insisting I was a pilot I’m not a flight engineer, I’m a pilot doing some flight engineer duties you see. And um so that’s how it was. So I then flew with 619 Squadron, and erm and that’s where I did my op, um well, I no there were, well, backtrack a little bit. While I was at Swinderby we got sent on what was called Operation Sweepstake on two nights, which was going flying to Strasburg. Now this is all a bit vague in my memory but I subsequently found that what Operation Sweepstake was was a diversionary flight to deceive the Germans that that’s where the raid was gonna be and they diverted fighters to you, you see. I thought, oh I see, so we’re the bait are we, we’re the ones that attracted the fighters while the others do their raid you see. So that was twice and I did say to the CO I said, ‘Is that counted as an operation?’ ‘Well yeah,’ he said, ‘it was over enemy territory [loud laugh] and you were being shot at’ and so on, so he said ‘I think [emphasis] it’s an operation but it may be a half [emphasis] an op.’ So I did two of those so I don’t know whether they count as two ops or one op, but anyway that’s it. And er then my first op at um at Strubby was a daylight raid over Germany, we were bombing some troop concentrations and this was quite a big operation, you know. We joined up with the Americans flew over there and um [background noise] we got over the target, you know, bomb aimer said right you know, gave his instructions and I looked out of the window and I could see these bombs coming down, like hail stones, and I thought bloomin’ ‘eck [loud laugh] never mind about flying straight and level, what about these bloody bombs, let’s dodge those, I said and then I suddenly thought well at night you won’t see those but I wonder how many people got hit by bombs coming down from their plane. I said there were these things coming down like hail stones round you, so er anyway that we did the bombing operations and came back home, and then I got posted to 44 Squadron which was at, erm, Spilsby. Now, and then, after that I got posted to Mepal, which was also 44 Squadron, and then finally to Mildenhall. Now, while we were at Spilsby and Mepal we did these trips Exodus, where we brought back prisoners of war from Germany. We also did some engine ferrying out to Italy, to Bari, and we also brought back troops from the Far East to bring them home, so we were doing those sort of jobs. I was getting in, I was flying by then, with the commanding officer of 44 Squadron, Wing Commander Birch and he had chosen me, I know why ‘cause he said ‘Well I’ve got you, because you’re a pilot,’ and he said ‘I can have a nap while you can fly the bloody thing,’ so I said, okay, that’s okay with me as long as he said I recognise you’re a pilot not a flight engineer, I said ‘No, if you’re banking on me being very good if something goes wrong with the engine,’ I said, ‘I’m useless, I’m hopeless technically,’ I said. ‘It’s just a ploy to get me into a squadron,’ I said. ‘That’s all right, but I want you in my crew,’ and he said, ‘we’re designated to go into Tiger Force,’ which was going out to the Far East and he said we we’ll be switching to Lincolns, and he said ‘that has two pilots anyway’ so he said I’m going to have you with me.’ So I said ‘oh that suits me that’s fine thank you.’ So we did these trips flying prisoners of war, bringing troops back, flying engines out to Italy and all these other jobs and er we kept doing that and then I got we got moved to Mildenhall and there we were going to switch to Lincolns ready for Tiger Force to go out to the Far East which I must admit I wasn’t looking forward to, and then, they dropped the atom bomb, and it was all over. And I thought [bang] thank god for that, so I didn’t really have any more then I was just left at Mildenhall, did the odd flight in the Lincoln, the odd flight in the Lancaster, all the year, the crew that I had at before the end of the European war disappeared, the Canadians all went, and the Dane, well they all went back home and I had a hotch potch of different crews. The only thing that was constant was Wing Commander Birch and me and that’s how we carried out till the end of the war when I got demobbed in er June 1946 and so ended my life in the RAF and I, oh I did forget to tell you [laugh] one of the things after I came back from South Africa, was that within a fortnight, Cynthia and I got married. I’d been sending her cake ingredients from South Africa ‘cause you could send parcels home, getting round the rationing so all the stuff had been sent home and the cake had been made, so we got married in 1944 and while I was at Mildenhall waiting to be demobbed she came up there and got a flat together and we stayed there until we were demobbed and went back home. We went to live in Cardiff, and I got back into the civil service and stayed there. I got various postings in the civil service and so on and I ended up in the civil service in 1981 when you got retired bang [emphasis] on sixty, 17th of August 1981, finished, retired. And that was it really so, I suppose that’s my history. [laugh]
CM: That’s amazing [laugh]
VM: All right?
CM: That’s fantastic! And now you’ve come back to Lincoln.
VM: And now I’ve come back to Lincoln. I was Lincoln, I mean I, I went back to Cardiff to start with and then I got promoted and went to London, and after that I went to the Atomic Energy Research Establishment at Harwell and I stayed there. Then I went back to London, to Surrey and that’s where you know I retired. And I lived in various places in London suburbs, and um until we got older and we went into a retirement establishment in Oxford, and then er then Linda and Joe said ‘Well, you know, you’re getting on a bit now as well and might need some care, so come up and live near us,’ which is what we did and here we are. And this is where we are. My wife died three years ago, four years ago now and that’s it really and the air force has reclaimed me in a way ‘cause I had nothing to do with them until I came up to Lincoln. [Pause] How’s that – anything else?
CM: No, it’s been fantastic. Thank you. [laugh] Yes, amazing. Would, if you had the opportunity, would you fly in a Lanc again – not that I can promise that of course.
VM: What do you mean, would I fly in a Lanc?
CM: Would you go up in a Lancaster again if you had the opportunity?
VM: Oh yes of course. Well I mean it’s very interesting the Lanc at East Kirkby,
CM: Yes.
VM: Just Jane, I went there.
CM: Yes.
VM: I had a taxy in it you see. ‘Course they all suddenly said oh well, he used to be in one of these, and fly them I got very embarrassed because people started queuing up to get me autograph and things I thought bloomin’ ‘eck I wish they wouldn’t do that, and it was very interesting because when I got in the Lanc and walking up the fuselage and then you had to get into the cockpit and there’s a big main spar across. Well, I couldn’t, I mean I had a job, I needed a crane to get over that I couldn’t get had to be helped over it, I go one leg up I said I don’t remember this being here at all before, because as a youngster, you know, I said I don’t remember, I didn’t know there was such a thing there [chuckle] I said I can’t get over the damn thing, I said it’s a major job to climb over this to get into the cockpit so it’s quite funny really. And um yeah anyway, there we are. I haven’t actually flown [emphasis] in one but I’ve been [emphasis] in one and I’ve had a taxy in one and you know, I’ve said to Andy Millican, the CO, of BBMF, I said you know if the opportunity arises while I’m here some time I said I’m ready for a trip. [laugh]
CM: I can imagine. Thank you.
VM: All right?
CM: It’s been amazing. I’m going to hit the pause button now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Vernon Thomas Morgan
Creator
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Claire Monk
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-08
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMorganVT170908
Format
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00:41:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
South Africa
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Suffolk
Wales--Cardiff
Description
An account of the resource
Vernon Morgan, from Cardiff, joined the civil service working at the Royal Ordnance Factory, volunteering for the RAF in 1941. After pilot training in South Africa he returned to several different roles: CO of a satellite aerodrome, pilot for wireless operator training. Retrained as flight engineer, he was posted to 619 and then 44 Squadrons, flying operations including bombing runs and repatriation of troops/POWs. He returned to the civil service after the war.
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1944
1946
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
44 Squadron
619 Squadron
aircrew
flight engineer
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lincoln
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Oxford
pilot
Proctor
RAF Madley
RAF Mildenhall
RAF St Athan
RAF Strubby
RAF Swinderby
Tiger Moth
training
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1532/24323/PChadwickR19040087.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1532/24323/PChadwickR19040088.2.jpg
2e2eb3582b20a038698eb0b87d59ba09
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Chadwick, Roy. 1940s
Description
An account of the resource
69 items. Photographs of people, places and aircraft
Rights
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This content is property of Delphine S Stevens who has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0) permission to publish it. Please note that it was digitised by a third-party which used technical specifications that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Avro Lincoln taxiing
Description
An account of the resource
Front quarter view from above of an Avro Lincoln on taxiway. In the background a dispersal pan and runway caravan. On the reverse 'Lincoln at Tengah of No 1 Bomber Squadron Singapore, by courtesy of D G Howell, signed D G Howell 5 MU'.
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D G Howell
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One b/w photograph
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Photograph
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PChadwickR19040087, PChadwickR19040088
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Royal Australian Air Force
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Singapore
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is property of Delphine S Stevens who has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0) permission to publish it. Please note that it was digitised by a third-party which used technical specifications that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
control caravan
Lincoln
service vehicle
taxiway
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/159/2504/AParkinsHW150612.2.mp3
a7b074df4b419b69687ccb1c168e6939
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Parkins, Harry
H W Parkins
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. Two oral history interviews with Harry Parkins (891679 Royal Air Force), his logbook, identity card and one photograph. Harry Parkins was a flight engineer with 630 Squadron and 576 Squadron and flew 30 night time and 17 daylight operations from RAF Fiskerton and RAF East Kirkby.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Harry Parkins and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DE: Harry, you were going to tell me the story of being shot at.
HP: Yes it was on the 21st of the 6th ‘44, we were on operations to Wessling, and we had twelve thousand pounds worth on bombs, we succeeded in doing that but on the way back I spotted what I thought was a plane coming towards us, I shouted to the gunners ‘cause [sic] they hadn’t seen it, and as it got nearer it started firing tracer bullets which was very frightening, and the gunners spotted it and shot at it and luckily they downed it, so we were able to get back home safely but I went down to see where the tracer bullet had gone in the aircraft to see if there was any serious damage, I couldn’t see any but when we landed the ground crew actually cried because there was seventeen holes in the plane and it didn’t fly again, a shame that was, and that took us four hours twenty minutes that trip.
DE: Where were you standing when you saw this aircraft attacking you?
HP: I was just standing by the seat that’s next to the pilot, where there’s a little dome, and standing in that dome you can see all the way round, and I always liked to look all the way round when I wasn’t checking the engines because, it was your job really to spot anything, and some of the frightening aspects of it is if the Perspex wasn’t cleaned very well, in the night time, incidentally that was a night time flight, in the night time if you saw a little speck of dirt that hadn’t been cleaned it could be a fighter coming after you, so we always wanted the ground crew to make sure the Perspex was always as clean as possible.
DE: So what did an incoming eighty-eight look like then?
HP: [slight laugh] it’s hard to remember because with the tracer bullets coming at you, you practically didn’t see the plane, all you saw was these lights coming at you, which was very frightening, it’s bad enough being shot at but to see, actually see it coming at you, it was worse than ever.
DE: Did the pilot take any evasive action?
HP: Yes, he did a slight corkscrew but not too much because the gunners had got the plane, and it went down, so he really didn’t have to do a corkscrew, but that’s a frightening thing when you do a corkscrew, because at one time coming back from an operation, I forget where that was, we were caught in searchlights, and that again is another frightening thing, and it’s, it’s like being on a stage completely naked and everyone’s looking at you, and well the gunner shouted to do a corkscrew and it went really mad, it was a really violent corkscrew, you thought the wings were gonna [sic] come off, but we managed to get out of the searchlight and carry on home, again we were lucky.
DE: And when you landed, you say the ground crew were really upset, was it that obvious then that the plane had been hit?
HP: Yeah, you could see all the holes in the side, yeah, but we didn’t know until after briefing how many holes there was, seventeen all told [sic], which is quite a lot, [pause] that was our twentieth operation that one.
DE: So, you mentioned at certain points when the searchlights were on you or if you were being shot at you felt frightened, how did you feel before and during operations normally?
HP: I didn’t feel too bad because, I think half the time being a young age it was like excitement more than anything else, you didn’t really have a lot of fear at all, at least I didn’t, and I don’t think the rest of the crew did, except maybe the rear gunner because that time when we had a mid-air collision, I think that really frightened him.
DE: But he was OK?
HP: He carried on until the end yeah, and when we finished the tour of ops, they went back to their various countries, which was Australia and New Zealand.
DE: You had another story about some low flying?
HP: Oh yes, my skipper like to do low flying, and, we were low flying what we called air to sea firing where the gunners fired off their guns to make sure everything was OK and you checked various things in the plane and coming back, he decided to do a bit of low flying along Skegness and in actual fact when I looked out from my little blister, I could see the pier above us [laughs], and he still carried on and as we passed further along near to the pier there was two men in a boat, who must have thought we were coming into crash because they jumped out the boat [laughs] and we passed them and coming up to Butlins camp which at that time had been taken over by the navy, and the navy was having a parade on their parade ground and he went so low that the parade all scarpered and ducked down and we all laughed at that and carried on back to East Kirkby, but a couple of days later we were called to the group captains office and he said, ‘first of all you needn’t deny this because we’ve got people who witnessed your aircraft number from the naval station’ and he said the naval officer in charge contacted him because he knew it was from East Kirkby and said that ‘tell your crew that next time if they do that, it won’t be air to sea firing, it’ll be ground to air firing’ and he just said ‘dismissed’, I think he thought it was more of a joke as well [pause], anything else?
DE: Well anything else you can tell me?
HP: I don’t know if I told you about when Pilot Officer Jackson and I went, three, twice with him, did I tell you that?
DE: Yes you did.
HP: I’m just trying to think of the other thing.
DE: Yes you said that three was your lucky number.
HP: Yes, well I lived in 13, Churchill Walk in England, in London I should say and we had a bomb dropped on the next street and it shattered all the windows of our street, right the way along except number thirteen, never touched the windows at all, and with no explanation for that at all.
DE: Would you say you are quite a superstitious person then?
HP: In the way of three and thirteen, yes.
DE: What about any lucky charms did you have anything?
HP: No, never had lucky charms but quite a few air crew used to have lucky charms, and my opinion is that often the lucky charms cause them to do something wrong and end up being either shot down or crashed, because when you think about it, if a member of the crew had a lucky charm and he’d gone and left it before he was flying, instead of his mind being on what he should be doing, his mind was on, ‘what did I do with that lucky charm?’ and during that period something could happen, but that was only my opinion.
DE: So you think it’s more professional just to keep your mind focused on the job?
HP: Oh yes, definitely.
DE: Did you know if anybody in your crew had anything like that?
HP: No, none of them, none at all, the only thing we considered a lucky charm was our whistle and we all had a whistle it was always pinned to your coat.
DE: So the other thing I’ve read about is similar superstitions that if you associated with a certain woman she was unlucky or anything like that, do you have any stories about things like that?
HP: No, the only story I had was that one of the air crew, I don’t know who he was, I think he was a pilot, he’d got going with one of the girls in the village and after a while, whether he got fed up with her or not, she found out that he’d been seeing someone else when he said he was off flying and she happened to be in, the, it was a WAF and she happened to be in where they had the parachutes and as a revenge apparently she cut the strings of the parachute and of course nothing happened for a while but eventually they were shot up and the crew bailed out but his parachute didn’t open properly and that was the end of him, there was an enquiry about that but it was more or less hushed up because it would’ve scared other members of the crew. Whether that was a true story I don’t know but that’s the story that went round.
DE: And you heard that on, during your time on operations?
HP: Yes.
DE: Did you have any associations with any WAF’s?
HP: No, only when I was training I had a association with a land army girl who lived in Nottingham, and, I think it’s more or less after, no towards the end of the war, I was stationed at Stirgate and we got leave and I thought ‘oh I’d go into Nottingham and see if I could find this land army girl’ and as it happened, whilst I was in Nottingham I met up with some Americans and they got chatting to me and they said they had a club, would I like go into the club and having a few drinks, well a few drinks ended up to a lot of drinks and then I found out where this land army girl lived and I knocked on the door and she came out and give me a cuddle and said ‘oh lets go for a walk’, and at Nottingham there’s the Lincoln castle where you go up a sort of a hill, and we were walking up there and we got to the top, we were going to sit down and have a chat and I was dying for a leak [slight laugh] and I said ‘I’m ever so sorry, I’ve got to go and find a toilet’ and I actually run down all the hill to find somewhere, I found somewhere, when I went back up she’d gone, [slight laugh] that was the end of that ‘cause [sic] she didn’t like people drinking, and that’s about the only experience I had.
DE: Did you have a lot to do with Americans then?
HP: Not really, but we did have an American who swapped a pilots, with, he came to East Kirkby as a pilot on Lancaster’s and an English pilot went onto theirs, to go onto super fortresses , just an exchange and it appeared the American was a bit of an unruly type so that’s why they were keen to get rid of him go to the RAF, but if ever we went out together because we always get chatting together, he would go into Boston with us and instead of wearing either his American outfit or his British outfit he used to go with part aircrew American on top and part RAF at the bottom and he was always being picked up by MP’s, but being American he always got away with it, and there was one incident where, it was when a lot of prisoners made an escape and the Germans found out where they were coming up and I don’t know if you ever read about it but the Germans shot, I think it was about thirty or forty of the escapees, so at that time the group captain said that if anybody wanted to draw a gun, fifteen rounds of ammunition, he’s not saying you should do that but if you felt you wanted to you could do, so I think nearly half the air force drew guns and fifteen rounds of ammunition, and this American he’d got his gun and fifteen rounds of ammunition, and outside his nissen hut, there was a tree where a blackbird used to come every day twittering away and it upset him he didn’t like this blackbird so he went outside and fired at it but he never hit it at all until he run out of ammunition , and I can remember also, where you went for ablutions, it was in a place outside where your nissen hut was, and they used to issue you with a tin bowl, and I was walking across with this tin bowl and all of a sudden a bullet hit this tin bowl [laughing], I dropped the tin bowl and rushed into the ablution, never found out who fired it, but there was so much ridiculous firing going on round the airdrome at East Kirkby that the group captain got to know about this and he said ‘right, that is stupid of all these people’, so he wanted all the guns handed, handed in and all the ammunition handed in, well, all the guns were handed in OK but I think there was only ten rounds of ammunition, all the rest had been spent. Similar things like, in my crew a New Zealander, he didn’t like flies and we used to often play darts a lot and he saw this fly going across the dart board so out come the gun firing, [laughing] firing at the fly, so as I say there was all daft things like that going on, that’s why the group said, group captain said ‘right they’ve all got to come back in again’, he didn’t trust any of them.
DE: So, people in your crew took them, did you take one?
HP: Oh yeah, we all took one I think, as I say, I think everybody who was allowed to took one, I never fired mine, I don’t think my crew did except this New Zealander, he did at the dart board [laughs] a crazy lot.
DE: I’ve read in other people’s stories that the medical officers sometimes gave tablets to help you get through night operations, did that ever happen with you?
HP: Never heard of it, never, although once when I got a sty on my eye it was considered to be unlucky if you couldn’t go off on your routine operations one after the other all the way through, and I got such a bad sty on my eye, I thought ‘well they won’t let me fly’, so I said to the crew ‘I’m going down to sick quarters’ to see if they can do anything, and sick quarters was quite a way off the airdrome and it had a seat in there which was just concrete to sit on while you was waiting to be seen by the doctor, well when I got there there was nobody else there but the doctor wasn’t there, and while I was sat there, the dentist came out and he said ‘it must be freezing cold over there, son’ he said ‘come in, sit on the dentist chair and we’ll have a look at your teeth’ [laughs] so he had a look at me teeth and before I knew it he’d took one out and [laughs] I got blood all over me shirt and I said ‘oh I only came in for me eye’ he said ‘well it was much warmer in here wasn’t it?’, [laughs] and I said ‘yes’ and his WAF helper, she said ‘oh here’s the doctor now, so you can go in next door and see the doctor’, and he looked at me and said ‘good God, what’s all this blood all over you?’ ‘I said ‘well the dentist decided to keep me in the warm and took a tooth out’ and I’m sure, it was that one there, and I’m sure there was nothing wrong with it, and he looked at me eye and he said ‘I could lance it’ and he played around with the sty for several minutes and he said ‘if you go back and rest before you get your briefing’ he said, ‘I think you’ll be OK’ and that was it, I carried on on ops.
DE: I would’ve thought you’d need more time off for having a tooth out?
HP: Yeah [laughs]. We certainly had some funny things happening during our time in the RAF.
DE: You briefly mentioned the ablutions then, what were the living accommodations and the ablutions like there?
HP: Well it was only a nissen hut with so many beds all the way down which weren’t all that comfortable but you had plenty of blankets that you could put underneath or over the top of the mattress so it weren’t too bad and the ablutions was, well you had to take your own bowl, you didn’t get hot water, just turned the tap on and that was it, so it was very sparse, but you got on with it, you didn’t complain, if you complained nothing would happen about it [slight laugh], and another thing happened, they used to be card mad and if you weren’t on any day light trips or anything like that, you used to sit there playing pontoon or shoot, shoot pontoon, I don’t know if you knew that, it was where you had a dealer and he’d go round to everybody to see how much they’d put it the deal in the front, either to match his or over match it then as they dealt the cards round to each person you said ‘shoot’, either put a bit more money in or you left it as it was and you either lost or you won and you took something out or put something in and when it got to my turn, I had an ace and I thought its worth shooting the lot , so I shot the lot, I got a queen and the damn dealer got a king so his took preference over mine so I lost the lot and another fella next to me, weren’t member of my crew, he had an Indian motorbike and he’d done the similar thing and lost it all so he still wanted to go again so dealer said ‘what have you got?’ and he said ‘well, I’ve got no money left but I’ll put my motor bike in’ [laughs] and he put the motorbike in and he lost, so round it went and when it came to my turn again and I said ‘I’ve got no money neither but I’ll shoot the motorbike and I’ll have to pay if I lose, at a later date’, anyways I won so I won this motorbike and I had no clues what so ever how to drive a motorbike, and the fella who had originally lost it, he said ‘you lucky devil’ he said ‘I’ll show you what to do’ and we got outside the nissen hut ‘cause the card game had finished and he said ‘right, you do this, do that, and away you go’, so I did that and did that and I went straight through the ablution, straight through [laughs], straight through the covers that were on the outside and just stopped so I said ‘no I don’t want this anymore’ [laughing], I had a few bruises but the motorbike was OK, except where there was a big hole in the side of the ablution, so the next time we played I put the motorbike in purely to lose it, and I never went on a motorbike again.
DE: Probably quite right. So did you play cards with other crews?
HP: Yeah there was all sorts that used to mix in with playing cards yeah, yeah there was one time when we were due leave but the train wasn’t due till, I forget probably about half past ten or eleven and we were always up before seven, you go for your breakfast, come back and waiting to go in, get in to Boston station and you’d play cards, and I played cards and lost again, lost all me money, I went on leave purely with your leave application where you didn’t have to pay anything and when I got to London, I relied on my father to pay for the fayre to get back home, and I said what I had been doing, playing cards and he said ‘your best bet is to leave cards alone unless you’ve got a good memory for where cards turn up’, so I never played cards again [slight laugh].
DE: So just quickly going back to the nissen hut, who did you share with?
HP: Just your own crew, maybe, possibly another crew that were in a nissen hut nearby, so it weren’t too bad, bit cold in winter though, yeah [pause], but I had a cut throat razor, as where we used to live in London, we always used to go to the top of the road ‘cause there was a Jewish barber there and he was always asking about me, when I come home on leave I always used to go there to have a haircut and have a chat with him and he said, ‘you’ll soon be needing to shave, won’t you?’, I said ‘well I got a little bit of stubble coming’, he said ‘I’ve got something for you, I’ve saved this for you’ and it was a German crop razor one of the best there could be and he said, ‘there you are, that’s for you’ and eventually I had to use this, and people used to come and watch me shaving thinking that if I got the twitch from flying I’d cut myself [slight laugh] but I never did and then we went off somewhere and we came back and somehow the call up[?] seemed to go astray, went wrong and instead of landing at east Kirkby we landed at another field, airfield nearby, can’t remember what it was, it might have been Strubby or some name like that, and when we landed we had briefing and they said ‘oh you are not far from East Kirkby so you may as well stay the night, which we did, then next morning refuelled and fly back to East Kirkby, when I went into the nissen hut there was nothing of mine there, it had all gone, and I had a wallet where one of the young ladies I knew in London had given me a ten pound note and I’d always kept that in this wallet for emergencies and that had gone, ‘cause you weren’t allowed to take anything on ops with you, nothing to identify you, and what had happened, if any crews were shot down or didn’t come back, rather than send any of the stuff that the person had kept, they used to have what they called a committee of adjustments, and that was where the stuff was put in to be auctioned off and everything was auctioned and I lost all my stuff, and other members of the crew had lost their radio or maybe a bike, it was all gone, so I never ever got my razor back.
DE: Oh dear and this was because you were somewhere else for one night?
HP: Yeah, they thought we had been shot down.
DE: So for the sake of one phone call, you lost all your kit.
HP: Yeah. That was one of those things, but hardly anybody had ever heard of it, committee of adjustments, I’ve never heard of anybody who knew about it, none of the parents or lovers knew about it either, it just all sort of vanished.
DE: And over efficient as well it seems.
HP: Yeah, very efficient [laughs]
DE: You mentioned when you were talking about your razor, about the dangers of shaving if you got the twitch, could you explain a little bit about the twitch?
HP: Yeah, well that was where some air crew who had got so scared, that they were too scared to admit that they were frightened and they used to have a sort of twitch which gave them away, you know when they were walking along they would go like that somehow, do a funny little twitch with a hand or the head and we we [sic] had one fella who had got it so bad he was walking along as though he was carrying a ladder and if anybody was near him they’d shout at them ‘get out the way, can’t you see the ladder?’ and he’d got nothing, again [laughing] this is what we called the twitch.
DE: Did these people carry on flying then?
HP: Some of them did and some of them didn’t, they ended up in hospital you know having consultations and things like that, see if they could get them back to normal.
DE: Did you know anyone personally?
HP: No. I say on an airdrome or a base you’d mainly know your own crew really thoroughly but other crews you didn’t really mix a lot at all, so didn’t know many of them at all, ‘cause many a time I spoke or people have asked me about being in East Kirkby and they say, ‘do you know Jack Thompson?’, I said ‘never heard of him’, ‘oh well he was there, he was at East Kirkby’, as I say you just didn’t know these people, unless they were someone famous.
DE: So you wouldn’t talk to each other in briefing or anything like that then?
HP: Not really no, ‘cause your crew was your crew altogether and further down was their crew, all listening to what was going on.
DE: I see, what about the ground personnel and the ground crew that looked after your aircraft?
HP: They were smashing, really good blokes, yeah.
DE: Did you have more to do with them then?
HP: Not really, only when we took off and come back again, so you didn’t really mix with them in the mess because most of them were, I forgot what, LAC’s, they weren’t sergeants or anything like that, so they were in a different category.
DE: I just wondered if you chatted to them about anything out on the dispersals?
HP: You did occasionally but not very often, not unless like when we came back and we had seventeen holes and they were upset about it.
DE: Did you always fly the same aircraft then if you could?
HP: No you had several different aircrafts but in just looking at that, we flew an X, X X X X, the same Lancaster all the time there, then, after that X X, Q V, all different letters to the different Lancaster’s.
DE: I’ve read somewhere that the ground crew said that the aircraft belonged to them and the air crew only borrowed it.
HP: Yes [laughs] I think that’s true as well, because they really were good blokes, nothing wrong with them at all, they really looked after your aircraft, [pauses] in fact they should have got more praise than they ever did, ground crews.
DE: Did you have any views about what you were doing? I know it’s been a matter of debate since the war a lot.
HP: Not really, but I always thought we were doing the right thing as being a Londoner and being in the Blitz, seeing what had been happening in London and you felt you were doing the right thing to do the same thing back to them.
DE: Yes you mentioned last time we spoke how you were on your way to work and the factory wasn’t there anymore.
Hp: Yeah, so you know you had that feeling we were doing the proper thing.
DE: I can’t remember if I asked you much about your recruitment and your training?
HP: Well I think I mentioned that, two lads at the outer city trip (?-name of company) transport company where we were thinking we might get called up, we were having our lunch and we were debating should we volunteer and we decided we ought to so we got what we wanted and we went straight out after lunch, straight down to the recruiting office and both volunteered for the RAF and that was because I thought it was safer in the air than on the ground at the time.
DE: Yes you said that you didn’t want to join the navy because you couldn’t swim very well.
HP: No only across the canal because there was a big canal near us in London and we often used to go and swim across the canal, and we also used to get an old bike wheel, break all the spokes out and thread a sack round, put some string on and drop it down, pull it up and we’d got loads of sticklebacks and it reminded me of that, seeing I don’t know if you watch it, Countryfile, it was showing you about a stickleback there that was blowing its nest waiting for the little ones to come out and they called it the star of the show and it reminded me of that because we used to sell these sticklebacks then to other kids, because everybody used to like a fish in a jar, made a little bit of money doing that. [laughs]
DE: But you were expected into the RAF and then you went away?
HP: Yes we, we went first of all to the flats were film stars used to be, the RAF had accommodated those and I thought it was marvellous because the bathroom was cut glass all the way around with like fish swimming round and I thought ‘boy this is the life to be in the RAF’ but that was only temporary while we were doing the training, and also on the square we had a fella called Alva Liddel, he used to be an announcer for the news and he always used to say ‘this is the news and Alva Liddel speaking it’ and he happened to be in, I don’t know whether he volunteered or not or was called up, but he was on the square and in the papers it said ‘this is Alva Liddel on the square, bashing it’, so that was interesting and we were opposite London zoo and we had our food in the zoo, and people used to be wondering around looking at us having food in the zoo which seemed strange to them, and there used to be a place, I forget the name of the place but we used to march from the flats where the square was, down across the stop lights on Marylebone road to a swimming baths, where we used to have training for, if you came down how to turn the, not the airborne lifeboat, it was like a big circle, I can’t remember what they call that now, but often if you dropped it for you to go in to, it would turn up the wrong way so the bottom of it was on the top and there was like a suction, so you had to be able to go over the top of it, hold on just where the bottle was for blowing it up, grab hold of that and pull yourself up like that and go right the way under and re-put it right, [DE: turn the dingy the right way round] yeah dingy that was it I couldn’t remember what they were called them, yeah and I wasn’t pretty good at that even though I couldn’t swim very far, but they used to make you march in this place as well, because they put boards across and if it was raining you could go in there and do your marching up and down on these boards, when it was swimming they used to take all the boards up and you did the swimming exercise, and there was one where this sergeant he called out, I don’t know if I mentioned this before, he called out that all the crews that were there had to put on their flying suit and he said ‘I want all the swimmers this end and all the non-swimmers that end’, so I thought to myself ‘I don’t know what he’s going to do so I’m going to go to the non-swimmers’ so I was down the non-swimmers which was the least deep part of it and all the swimmers were up by the diving board, then he said ‘right I don’t want anybody to move but all the non-swimmers come up by the diving board’, all the swimmers went down to the non-deep side and the idea was you had to climb up to the top diving board and jump off with your flying suit on then swim to the side if you could, and I was that scared of having to go up that ladder I kept getting behind and behind and behind, and I was the last one and everybody was booing me and he came up to me and he said ‘I can understand you being scared but just go up to the top, I’ll come with you and just look over and you’ll be OK’, he said ‘then you can come back down’ so I believed him and I went up with him, got to the top, and he said ‘you can let go of the bars either side’, so I let go and he just pushed me and down I went and I went right down under, well I didn’t come up because where the zips on my flying suit didn’t work they just filled up with water, held me down, so there was panic on to fish me out, get me back and pump me chest to get me spilling all the water out and after a while I was OK, but I wouldn’t dive after that [slight laugh], and that was a frightening experience, and I always hoped that I would never have to jump out of an aircraft into the sea or even have to turn the dingy over, but luckily we never had to, but that was a frightening experience before I even got to flying.
DE: So what other things did they have you doing for your training to be an engineer?
HP: Oh before you was, became an engineer you had to do like army training, going through tunnels and climbing over things and that was done at Bridlington, I think I mentioned that, [DE: briefly yes], well that was where we were marching along and I looked over the side and I thought that looks like my Uncle Ernie, and I didn’t know he was in the army, he’d been called up, and I just went marching over to him, because the sergeant halted the crew, came over to me and shouted, shouted a few abusive words at me and I said ‘well that’s my Uncle Ernie’, he said ‘I don’t care if it’s the f’ing queen’ he said ‘you don’t walk out of my marching section’, so I got ten days working in the cook house cleaning dirty tins, yeah, and he got chatting to me uncle to see if it was true, he was my uncle and they got quite friendly and he used to arrange football matches between the RAF and the army, ‘cause the army didn’t get on very well with the RAF but that broke the ice down.
DE: Why didn’t the army and the RAF get on?
HP: Well we were called the ‘Brylcreem boys’ [laughs], supposed to be the aloof.
HP: Did I mention that on, when they were expecting the invasion from the Germans they put us on duty either end of Bridlington with our rifle, so many rounds of ammunition and you had to march up a little way and back just to see if there was any invaders coming and shoot them, and this particular time it was a moonlight night with the clouds suddenly going over, and I looked up at one of the hotels and I could see what I thought was somebody flashing to the enemy, so I thought ‘well I’ve got to go and investigate as I’ve seen it’, and I got my rifle ready, I went scrambling up the stairs, right to the top, and as I went along the top corridor I saw another fella coming at me with the rifle and it frightened the life out of me, I dropped my torch, dropped my rifle and ran like mad and when I got to the bottom I thought ‘that was odd, nobody shot at me and nobody come running after me’ and I couldn’t work it out so I thought I better go back, pick me gun up, rifle, and when I got up there I realised I’d saw myself in a mirror [laughs] at the end of the corridor and there was anybody there and the light that I thought was somebody signalling was as a cloud went over the moon it was flickering on the window and the window was sort of flashing, I never told anybody about that [slight laugh] so that was another funny story.
DE: Were you at Bridlington very long then?
HP: Not long, no.
DE: Where did you go after that?
HP: After Bridlington, it was to do with going down to Saint Athens where you learnt everything from the book and from me looking at the engines to find out how they all worked and that took a couple of months, so you really knew everything about the Stirling bomber, and then you eventually went flying with different people in a Stirling and that’s where I said you were dead scared seeing as you’ve never flown before and you were meeting your crew for the first time in the bar, and that’s when this Aussie, rear gunner come up to me and said ‘you sound a bit like us, mate’ I said ‘why where you from?’ because I didn’t know where he was from, he said ‘Australia, where are you from?’ I said ‘Hackney’ he said ‘where’s Hackney?’, I said ‘in London’ he said ‘that sounds good, Hackney Harry’, ‘cause I’d told him my name and that’s when he said come and meet the crew, and I think I went through that.
DE: Yeah you did, you mentioned you got put on a charge and had to work in a kitchen?
HP: Yeah that was through meeting me uncle.
DE: What did they have you doing in there?
HP: Well all the greasy tins when they fried anything or done anything, they couldn’t wash them straight away, so you had to scrub away with the brush to get all the grease off and you had to do that at breakfast time, dinner time and evening meal time, which weren’t very good [slight laugh].
DE: Was it a fitting punishment then do you think?
HP: Yeah, I didn’t think so at the time, but there in the hotel where we used to go into, there was a stairway like that coming up with a landing like that and the toilet was right in the middle, and there was no locks or anything on it, did I tell you about that? [DE: no] well there used to be a scotch fella, who always had a great big knife, always down the side of his belt and I was on the toilet and this scotch fella came out, bashed the door open and said ‘out’ [emphasis], like that and it so infuriated me, I head butted him, he’s much bigger than me, great big bloke, and he went over the banisters, landed on the floor, I, I honestly thought I’d killed him and the sergeant come over and he was still laid there, he’d been knocked out actually, ended up in sick quarters, and all the rest of the air crew that used to be training there they were really scared of this scotch men and I became his best friend because nobody had ever stood up to him and it really upset him and he looked after me from then on, [slight laugh] but it was a frightening experience.
DE: Did you keep in touch with him?
HP: No, no once we split up, went off to you know the squadron where you met your crew and started flying with them, and as I said before it was with Stirling’s to start with and then after a little while they decided Lancaster’s were coming in, so you ended up at East Kirkby on Lancaster’s and I think I told you what happened when I said that I needed more training, they put me on ops.
DE: Yeah. That’s smashing, I think we’ll call that a day unless you can think of any other amusing anecdotes? I’ve ticked all the questions I had for you.
HP: Yeah, well when I was at the end of my first tour training with, I think I said that the pilot trained a pilot and the engineer trained an engineer, and I was with a, a pilot and we’d be on a cross country or something and it was dark when we were coming back so they used to let you go round the circuit before you came in, and this particular time someone fired up a red flare which meant there was danger you couldn’t land, and the pilot carried on landing and I said to him ‘we can’t land, there’s something wrong’, I think somebody had crashed before us, so he said ‘oh, we better go round again’, so we went round again, he was a squadron leader and he’d been on a lot of ops, and as we come round again, another red flare went up and he said ‘oh good we’re ok now’, I said ‘no it’s a red flare, what’s up with you, are you blind or something?’ [laughs] and round we went again and we were called up on the intercom to keep flying round until a green flare was fired, so we did this until I spotted a green flare coming up and I said ‘it’s ok now, there’s a green flare’, so he said ‘ok, we’ll go into land’ and when we’d landed and taxied round I said to him ‘I know you are a higher rank than me but I’m wondering if you’re bloody colour blind’ and he said ‘sssh, I am’ [whispers] and he said ‘I’ve never admitted it to anyone’, he says ‘so please, please don’t report me’, I didn’t know what to do really, because he was training he wasn’t on ops anymore so I just forgot about it, and I thought well if he’d been on ops, he’s done his share so let the poor bloke carry on, but that was frightening as well ‘cause if I hadn’t had said something he would have gone in and probably have crashed into the other plane crash.
DE: Which operation training unit was this you were at then?
HP: Can’t remember where that was. It might have been at Stirgate, fifty squadron ,Stirgate, it was there and that’s where we went on to picking up the passengers in Italy.
DE: Yes, you told me about that.
HP: Oh and another time we had to go to Brussels, this was after the war, to pick up twenty four ex-prisoners of war and the first time went there, everything went through OK, we had a couple of days off and then we had to go again and as we were coming into land, my pilot was looking either side because there’d been a lot of aircraft that had crashed there, and they were just bulldozed over the side and he was looking at, ‘oh look at that, that’s an American so and so, oh look at that’, and there was a great big gulley where somebody had crashed there and they’d moved the plane out the way and we went into that and burst a tire and an American bulldozer come out, up to us, I’d got, well we’d all got out the plane and he said ‘ok, everybody out the plane, I’m bulldozing you over to the side ‘cause other planes have got to come in’, I said ‘no you daren’t, you’re not gonna [sic] bulldoze my plane’, I said ‘we’ll wait until we get a new tyre’ he said ‘no I’m gonna bull doze it’, so all the crew stood in front of him so he couldn’t do it so in the end he gave up and somebody else came out and towed us over to the side where we had to wait for somebody to bring out another wheel for us, and that was at Brussels and we ended up at Melbrook, wherever that was and then we got the tyre all sorted out and then went on to our base, that was a daylight operation.
DE: Did you bring many prisoners of war back then?
HP: Yeah there was twenty four there, another twenty four the second time and then when we went to Italy there was six where we brought twenty back at a time so [adds up out loud] so that’d be about hundred and eighty blokes coming back.
DE: How does that make you feel that you did that?
HP: It made us feel good because they couldn’t get back other than by sea and going by plane it was a couple of hours so they were really grateful to us but really scared of flying, so we went without our parachutes to prove to them that it was safe to fly [slight laugh]
DE: What state were the POW’s in?
HP: Very poor state, very poor, some of, some of them were being sick but they couldn’t help it because they’d never ever flown before and some had bandages on them where they had broken their limbs, but it felt really good fetching them back.
DE: The other thing I’ve read about, about flights at the end of the war, where you had a sort of tour of Germany and had a look at the bombing, did you do any of those?
HP: No, no I didn’t hear about it though.
DE: I think people called them cook’s tours?
HP: No never heard of it, [pauses] the only time I heard of anybody going around, looking round again is Guy Gibson, I think I told you about that didn’t I? I had a mate, air crew flight engineer, used to on the same sort of ops as we did but I had done a lot more than him, we got very friendly and if we managed to get back we’d go into the pub and exchange stories, and this particular time he was right down in the mouth, he wouldn’t have a drink and I couldn’t get him to talk and I thought he’d got lack of moral fibre and was likely to disappear, so I kept talking to him and in the end he said ‘I’ve been sworn not to say anything ‘, so I said ‘well that’s a bit daft’ I said ‘because we could be not here, on our next op so what does it matter about telling me what you’re on about?’ so he said ‘alright then’ he said ‘you know we’re the last ones to get in the plane after our inspection?’ I said ‘yeah’ he said ‘I was just going up the ladder and this bloke come up to me, pushed me out the way and before I knew it was on the plane’, he said ‘I didn’t know what to do so I pulled the ladder up and went up to my position’, he said ‘and when I got there was this bloke sat in my seat and he just said ‘bugger off down the back’ and I was just about to shout at him when the pilot said’ ‘ssh, it’s Guy Gibson’ he was a squadron leader then, so I shut up and listened to rest went on and he said ‘all the way over when we went on the op he was criticising everybody, the gunners, the navigator wasn’t doing it right, the pilot wasn’t watching this and watching that’ and he said when they got to the target, they went round, dropped the bombs and the idea was you got away quick but Guy Gibson said ‘hang on, go round I want to have a look’ and he made the pilot go round about three times before they flew off back and all on the way back he still criticised them all and he said just as we were coming into land he said ‘I wanna [sic] speak to every member of the crew, I want you to swear an oath that you never saw me in this plane’ and he said ‘it frightened the lives out of all of us’ and that was why he was like he was but anyways he got over that and carried on flying, and I never liked Guy Gibson and when I once went to, I forget where it was, somewhere near Coningsby, which was the end of the runway where they’d got a museum there of what happened with bomber command and one of the fellas there happened to mention something about Guy Gibson and I said ‘I hated him, from what he did to one of my mates’ so he said ‘you’re not the first one to say that’ I said ‘why?’, he said ‘well there was a young pilot who was just about going to take off, walking up to his plane and Guy Gibson happened to be just at the side and he called this pilot over and he said ‘don’t you ever salute your superiors and the pilot said ‘I didn’t know you did that when you’re going off flying’ and he said ‘right, when you come back, you’ll be reduced in rank’, reduced him down to sergeant from a pilot officer, he said and that’s why he didn’t like Guy Gibson, but strange nobody liked him not on the squadron he was at and there was once when we come back from ops, we went into the pub and all of a sudden there was a shout and everybody saying ‘wahey’ and I said ‘is that the end of the war, have we finished?’ and somebody said ‘no, Guy Gibson’s caught the bucket’, in other words he’d gone down and that was where he’d gone off with some, I think it was mosquitos he was flying and on the way back instead of keeping with them, he spotted a train and he decided to go down and shoot this train up, and the story we heard was that one of the guards on the train had a rifle and he fired at Guy Gibson’s plane and a million to one chance he hit the fuel tank and it blew up and he went in, but that was all hushed up, they gave another story about why he was shot down.
De: What was the other story?
HP: I forget what it was but he was coming back and he was with the two other mosquitos and he was unlucky that got a shot that hit his plane and down he went, but we believed the first story, no he was never liked at all.
DE: Why was that do you think, was that just his attitude?
HP: His attitude to everybody, he was the king and he was the one who knew everything.
DE: Was there a lot of discipline or difference between people with officers and sergeants?
HP: There was some, I wouldn’t say a lot, but often when people were sergeants and they were made up to officers, that’s when you got a bit of flack, ‘cause I always remember after the war there was something happening and all crews were going to this place, I forget where it was, and I’d been issued with medals and I’d got the air crew Europe and star, because I had actually flown before my crew had so I come under that particular section and my pilot who’d got the DFC on behalf of crew co-operation, we never got anything so we were a bit bitter about that but I happened to spot my pilot and I went up to him to shake hands and say ‘how you doing?’ and the first thing he said to me, ‘how is it you got that?’ I said ‘what?’ he said ‘the air crew Europe and star? I’ve only got the air crew Europe’, I said ‘that’s because I flew before you’ and he weren’t very pleased and just walked off, never even spoke to me, so that sort of thing did happen.
DE: Was there a difference between people who were flying before the war and people who were volunteer reserve?
HP: Not really no, they were all doing the same thing.
DE: So how long did you stay in the RAF for?
HP: I think it was about seven or eight years, all told [sic]
DE: So what did you fly after the war?
HP: It was Lancaster’s and Lincoln’s, that was at Waddington, and did I tell you about the story of taking a photo of a, a Lincoln bomber? well when the Lincoln’s come onto the squadron, I was thinking about this and I thought to myself ‘it’d be marvellous , a Lincoln bomber flying over Lincoln Cathedral’, sounded good and I said this to my pilot and he said ‘yeah that sounds good’, he said ‘if you could get it organised ‘cause I’d had more experience than this new pilot, so I said to the photographer who used to unofficially do our photographs for us, I told him about this, he said ‘that would be marvellous, if you get me on the plane’, so I spoke to another pilot and we all agreed that we’d do this, we’d be in a plane with the photographer and another plane in the Lincoln would fly over Lincoln Cathedral but he happened to be late on take-off, the Lincoln pilot, and he came in a bit late, but because he was late he went flying too low and he went below the cathedral so anyways we got the photo of this, got back on the ground and I said ‘I’m going up to the photographer’s to see how he’s getting on’, so when I got there, he said ‘oh come in’ he said ‘a fabulous picture, Lincoln bomber flying below Lincoln Cathedral’ he said ‘it’s absolutely marvellous’ and he’d put the either negatives or something on a drum which used to go round to dry these photographs and just as he was doing this the group captain came in, inspected and he said ‘what are you two up to?’, ‘nothing, sir’ saluted him and out came this picture and he looked at it, he said ‘good God are you trying to get me demoted?’ he said ‘that’s illegal [emphasis], where is the negative?’ so the photographer was dead scared gave him the negative, he ripped it up and he ripped the photograph up and he said ‘you deserve to be on a charge, you two’ and he stormed off , and just as he stormed off the second picture came out and I grabbed hold of it and put it in my battle dress and the photographer said ‘you can’t do that!’, I said ‘I’ve done it, cheers’ and I kept this right the way till the end of the war and when I came out and I got friendly with a photographer, can’t remember his name now, of the Echo and he got to hear where I was working at Thorne electrical wholesalers and he phoned me up and said could he come in and see me so I said ‘what for?’, he said ‘I’d like to have a chat with you’ and in my office ‘cause I was a manager, I had a big picture up of the Lancaster and anybody who used to come in to see me said ‘that’s a super picture, why have you got that in an electrical wholesalers?’, because I said ‘I was in them’ and I used to get in with these people who used to come flogging you things for the electrical side, so he came in and he saw this picture, he said ‘that’s marvellous’, I said ‘I got a better one than that’ and he asked me questions like you have about me war record and he said ‘can you fetch that picture in to me?’ and I said ‘yeah I can fetch it in but I don’t want to let go’ so he said ‘OK’ he said ‘I’ll have a word with the editor and see if we can publish it’, so a couple of days later he rang me up at work and said I’ve got some sad news, he said the editor said it’s on RAF paper, it’s illegal photograph and he said it couldn’t be published until say twenty five years until that time had expired so he said ‘but I’m keeping it on file’, so I said ‘Ok then’ he said ‘I’ve got a copy of it and I’ll let you have that back’ and I got a copy in the bedroom I’ll let you have a look, and I suppose about twenty years afterwards he rang me up at work and he said ‘do you get the Lincoln Echo?’, I said ‘now and again’, he said ‘well buy it today’ so I did, front page was this picture, that marvellous picture and no end of people wanted to know how I took this and I told them and as I say I can show you the actual photograph, but this group captain, did I tell you about him who lived across the way? When I got a puncture outside his house? [DE: yes you told me but it’s not on the tape] Oh I was going one Sunday to get the Sunday paper and just as I got near this group captains house, I didn’t know he was a group captain, something went wrong with the car and I got out and I found I got a puncture and I jacked the car up, tried to get the wheel off but do you think I can undo those nuts, just couldn’t do it, and this young fella come strolling over and he said ‘I can help you there, I’m a younger fella than you’ so I said ‘oh thank you’ and he did everything, put the old one in the boot and put the new one in pumped it up, I said ‘oh thanks very much’ so he said ‘I hear you was in the war, in the RAF, is that right?’ I said ‘yes, I was flight engineer’, he said ‘did you do any ops? I said ‘yeah, I did thirty nine all told [sic] and had a mid-air collision at East Kirkby’ he said ‘good God and you’re still here’ [laughs] I said ‘yeah’, then he put out his hand and said ‘well done, I’m a squadron leader’ no he was a wing commander then, ‘I’m a wing commander’ so I said ‘well fancy that, that’s a new one ain’t [sic] it?, a wing commander changing the wheel of a warrant officer [slight laugh], it’s never been known’ and he laughed and he said ‘can I come across and see you?, where do you live?’ I said ‘just across from you’ so a few days later he came over and like you he sat there and he said ‘have you still got your log book?’, because you’re not supposed to have had it really but most people did and I said ‘yeah’, he said ‘can I have a look at it’ and he went through it and he said ‘I can’t believe you’re still here’ [laughs] and he said ‘there’s going to be a do at Petwood hotel’, I forget what it’s called but I can show you what it’s called up here [pause – background noise, moves to collect something] it’s called the memorial dinner, 3rd of July 2009 and there would be all top ranking officers there and these officers either had the girlfriends or their wives there and it was a fabulous dinner because lots of companies had donated money, they didn’t have Petwood hotel chefs they had the, what do they call those top chefs?, I’ve forgotten what they call them at the moment but they did the dinner, wish I could remember the names, you see them on television sometimes, very top chefs, somebody had arranged to have all the drinks so everything was free there and it was marvellous, and half way through, a fella got up and he was a famous painter, don’t know if you’ve ever seen a big elephant, I forget the name, what it was called but he was there and he said ‘gentlemen and ladies’ he said ‘I’ve asked the squadron leader if he would auction those three paintings that I’ve donated to the RAF because my heart is felt with the RAF for what they did during the war’, so the squadron leader got up and the first two paintings went for fifteen hundred pounds each, the last one went for two and a half thousand pounds, so it was smashing all donated to the RAF, and I thought I’ll have to go up and get his signature this fella and I went up and there was a couple of people in front of me and it was funny because one of the group captains wives was there with all her gold and chains on her, and she turned round to me and she said ‘oh’, she saw me medals and she said ‘you were in the RAF were you during the war?’ I said ’yes, that’s what these are for’ she said ‘what did you do?’ I said ‘I was a flight engineer on Lancaster’s and I did thirty nine ops’ she said ‘good God can I kiss you?’ [laughs] I said ‘if you wish’ [laughs], she kissed me and she said ‘thank you very much’ she said ‘if it wasn’t for people like you we wouldn’t be here having this do’ so I said ‘oh thank you’ and they gave us one of those, [DE: the mug] also a book of Lancaster’s and spitfires in it, it’s fabulous and then I suppose a couple of months after that, he rang up here and he said ‘would you like to come over?’, so I said ‘yes’ went to his door, he said ‘come in, I want to show you this’ and he showed me his hat and his lapels on his suit and he said ‘I’ve been promoted to group captain’ so I shook his hand and said ‘well done’ and he said ‘we’re having a do at’, he said ‘I’m at bomber command headquarters at the moment now’ he said ‘but I’ve come home for the weekend to show the wife me promotion’ he said ‘so when I go back I want to take you with me to bomber command headquarters and have a big dinner there’, did I tell you about that? So he said ‘have you still got your uniform?’ I said ‘you’re joking its seventy years ago now’, he said ‘well you need to have a dress suit’ so I said ‘well I haven’t even got that’ never even thought about it, so he said ‘well I’ll leave you to it, see if you can get one quick’ and he said by such and such a date, he said ‘I’ll be taking you down with me’, so at that moment my wife wanted to go to Matalans and my son said ‘I’ll come along with you I might see something I want’ ‘cause it’s a bit cheaper buying stuff there so we walked round and my wife brought a few skirts and things, and my son said to me ‘you wanted a dress suit didn’t you?’ he said ‘come and have a look at this’, and they had some dress suits that they were selling off cheaper so I worked out my size, tried a jacket on and it fitted so I said ‘I’ll buy this’ and instead of paying a couple of hundred pound I got one for about forty five quid so I thought that was really good and, I rang him up then, I said ‘I’ve got a dress suit now’ and I said ‘do I need to have me medals put on?’ he said ‘yes’ he said ‘if you bring it across, my wife will stitch them on for you’ so that was good, so did all that, she made some sandwiches and we went all the way down to High Wycombe, when I got there I’ve never seen so many high ranking officers, because I was only a warrant officer, I didn’t really know where to put myself so he said ‘I’m going to take you round’, he said ‘cause I got to do some work’ he said ‘but I’ll come back for you at seven o’clock, be dressed up with your medals on and we’re go and have a drink first with some of the officers, then we’ll go in for the dinner’ so I thought ‘lovely’, so picked me up at seven o’clock, I was put in an officer quarters so that was nice, went down to where they had the bar, had a few drinks and a lot of these top officers had never been on ops at all and they started asking me questions so that was good, and then he said ‘it’s time now to go in to our table’, and all along the top table, group captain was there, I was sat at the side of him and a nice WAF squadron leader at the side of me and we started off with this dinner and then he said ‘we’ve got to drink to the Queen’ and what is coming round is port and there was a great big jug like that of port so I went to grab hold of this big glass to pour mine out and he ‘aaah no you mustn’t touch it, it’s only touched by the squadron leader coming round, its part of the system that we have’ so they poured these glasses out and went all the way round and it was all silver service, you never see anything like it and then, a little while through, air vice marshal got up and he said ‘Gentlemen’, [clap clap] he said ‘I’d like to tell you there’s an interesting person with us tonight and I’d like to speak about him’ and I looked round and I thought maybe the Duke of Edinburgh were there but by the time I turned back he said ‘his name’s ex warrant officer Harry Parkins’ and he said ‘he did one of the longest bombing trips in the war from East Kirkby where they had to top up at the take off point, they went all the way down to Italy to fool the Germans, came all the way back up again to bomb Munich and on the way back his gunner a New Zealander’, no an Australian said ‘Harry we’re going to lose a day of our leave or maybe more if we land down south where we’d been told to go because we might not have enough fuel to get anywhere else’ so he said ‘can you work out the fuel, Harry?’, I said ‘yes’, there was no computers in those days, and I worked it out and I said ‘if there was a sunny morning we’d just about make it’ he said ‘so all the crew said ‘go for it, Harry’ so we did and we landed at East Kirkby on a nice sunny morning and all the engines chopped at the end of the runway’ and he said ‘gentlemen that took ten hours twenty five minutes, the longest that had ever been done in a Lancaster bomber and a hundred and sixty officers got up and gave me a two minute ovation, I didn’t know where to put myself or what to say but I got up and said ‘it wasn’t me gentlemen, it was the crew’, so we carried on with the dinner, and that was really was smashing and then he brought me all the way back home, stayed there about three nights, and one lunchtime, he said ‘I’ll tell you when to come in’, went in at a particular time and there was two other pilots sat with him, we were having your dinner and you could pick almost anything you wanted and it was a Friday so I said I’ll have fish and chips and they all had the same, they all did the same [laughs] and one of these pilots said to me ‘as a flight engineer did you ever do any flying yourself?’ I said ‘oh yes, we had training in a link trainer’ and up to a point I’d never flown a Lancaster but my pilot was a sergeant and then he was promoted to a pilot officer and he went out celebrating that night, and next night we were on flying, on ops and he was still under the weather so went through the briefing, never said much but felt a bit hazy like, he said ‘I’m going to take off Harry’ and I’m sat at the side of him and he said ‘you can do the rest’ I said ‘what do you mean?’, he said ‘ well you’ve had training on the link trainer’ he said I’m going back and having a sleep and you can carry on’, so I flew I think it was about two and a half hours to the bombing target and the bit that amused me most was when they were saying ‘left a bit, left a bit, right’ ‘till we got over the target, bombs away, turn round and on the way back and on the way back, I didn’t feel like doing the landing myself ‘cause I’d never done anything like that so I went back and woke him up and he came up and did the landing, so that was my time of having, flying the Lancaster myself, I didn’t do anymore that was the only time, but I felt quite proud about it and luckily we got back OK.
DE: Well that’s amazing, you mentioned the story of your ten hours twenty five minutes, is there any significance about it being a sunny day?
HP: Yeah because if it had been dark, you might have had to go round the circuit, to get your bearings for coming in, being a sunny day you could just go straight in, no need to go round the circuit, no other plane were likely to be flying there. I told you about the group captain coming in, yeah? So that was another good story.
DE: Smashing, I’m going to press stop there, that’s another hour and a half that, thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Parkins. Two
Identifier
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AParkinsHW150612
Date
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2015-06-12
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Emma Bonson
Sally Coulter
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:29:35 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Harry shares several memories of his time as a flight engineer in the Royal Air Force. He describes their initial accommodation in luxury London flats, and dinghy training at the local swimming pool. He recounts how in June 1944 they received 17 bullets in their aircraft on an operation to Wesseling but managed to return safely, also discussing lucky charms and superstition.
Anecdotes include a low flying incident near Skegness for which they were in trouble with the group captain, and the issue of guns and ammunition when some German prisoners escaped. They lost their possessions to the Committee of Adjustment when they were diverted to another airfield.
Harry received army-type training at RAF Bridlington and continued his flight engineering training on Stirlings at RAF St Athan. He was sent to RAF East Kirkby on Lancasters.
Harry collected prisoners of war from Italy and Brussels. He describes people’s recollections of Guy Gibson.
He stayed for seven or so years in the RAF, flying Lancasters and Lincolns at RAF Waddington. Harry relates the delayed publication of a photograph, with a Lincoln and Lincoln cathedral.
Harry outlines his encounter with a group captain who helped him to change his wheel, subsequently inviting him to dinners at the Petwood Hotel and Bomber Command headquarters. Harry received a two minute standing ovation for one of the longest bombing trips of the war.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany
Germany--Wesseling
England--Woodhall Spa
England--Lincoln
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
fear
flight engineer
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lincoln
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
RAF Bridlington
RAF East Kirkby
RAF St Athan
RAF Waddington
searchlight
Stirling
superstition
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/667/9220/PAlgarH1701.1.jpg
fc6613bb2e0382203476e2c25fd2b6dd
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/667/9220/AAlgarH170520.1.mp3
971b79860cc48492ea1f6c034d96276b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Algar, Harry
Harold Keith Mael Algar
H K M Algar
Description
An account of the resource
Thirteen items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Harry Algar (1924 - 2022, 1801102 Royal Air Force) and his log books and documents.
He flew a tour of operations as a bomb aimer with 463 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Greg Algar and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Algar, H
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: [unclear] So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Harry Algar at the Dambuster’s Inn on the 20th of May, is it the 20th today?
HA: [unclear] we’ve been discussing that this morning, what the date is [laughs]
US: I think it is, yes.
DK: Ok, [unclear], I can always amend it later. If I keep looking down at this, I’m just making sure that it’s still working cause I sometimes get beaten by the technology and the battery runs out or something
HA: Yeah
DK: So if I look down that’s all I’m doing. So, just leave that there. So, what I wanted to ask you Harry was first of all, what were you doing immediately before the war?
HA: Well, at that time I was working in London right next to London Bridge, working for Hay’s Wharf and I used to go up there every day, because in those days I went there on Saturdays as well as the other days of the week and I was what they called an office boy in those days, I don’t suppose they have them these days, but I worked in the engineer’s department of Hay’s Wharf [unclear] on the river front right from London Bridge down to Tower Bridge and part of my job was to walk from there to there and put in the time cards for the various [unclear] cranes and all the equipment they had on the wharf and then we’d take them out at the end of the week, work out their wages, that was my job then
DK: Right, so, what made you then want to join the Air Force, is there anything in particular?
HA: Well, yeah, in those days, it’s any different now but I did realise that there was gonna be trouble with Germany again and so I thought if I joined the RAF now at least I’m in the Air Force, not in the navy or the army
DK: So, the navy and army didn’t appeal to you?
HA: Not really, no, and so I joined the, what was it called? The
DK: ATC
HA: ATC, yes, I was one of the first to join the ATC, I joined the Woolwich Squadron, cause I lived comparatively near to Woolwich
DK: So how old would you have been about then?
HA: Sixteen,
DK: Sixteen
HA: Sixteen, seventeen
DK: Yeah
HA: Yes, I actually joined the Air Force when I was seventeen and I got called up when I was eighteen
DK: Yeah, right. So what did you feel when you were called up into the Air Force, what were you?
HA: I was expecting it, you know, it’s no great surprise
DK: No. And what were you hoping to do once you joined?
HA: Well, when I was in the ATC, I took the [unclear] leave for navigators, pilots and bomb aimers and that was sufficient actually to get me into aircrew
DK: Right. So you were tested then to see what your best sort of role
HA: Yes, well, when I actually joined the RAF the first thing I did was to go to the Elementary Flying Training School on, what the heck they called them?
DK: Is it the biplanes, the Tiger Moths?
HA: Yeah, Tiger Moths, on Tiger Moths, yeah. So, I was on Tiger Moths but I wasn’t specially able to, I didn’t progress quickly enough and so I came out of that particular scheme and got sent to Canada to do an air bomber scheme.
DK: So, when you were trying to fly the Tiger Moths, did they tell you quite early on, no, this isn’t
HA: I did about ten or twelve hours flying on Tiger Moths and after that they said, we think you’re more likely to kill us than kill Germans [laughs] so I was taken off the scheme.
DK: So, you then went off to Canada.
HA: Yeah.
DK: Can you remember much about the trip to Canada?
HA: Well yes, at the time, Roosevelt was in charge of the scheme and Churchill was going out to Canada to meet him and to discuss the state of the war and so Churchill was on the Queen Mary and I was on the Queen Mary as well.
DK: Oh right, Churchill was on the ship at the same time.
HA: Yes.
DK: Oh, right.
HA: Cause in those days, but most people don’t realise it that you couldn’t fly to Canada, not directly, you could only go by in small hops you know, so he went on the Queen Mary and I went on the Queen Mary
DK: Did you see him?
HA: Yes, I was outside his suite supposed to be guarding him, unfortunately I was rather sick [laughs] I could only go out and say [unclear]
DK: Were you a bit seasick then?
HA: Oh yes.
DK: So you were supposed to be actually guarding Churchill.
HA: Yeah.
DK: Oh right. Did he speak to you?
HA: No, I never saw him.
DK: You never saw him, oh, right.
HA: No. And of course when we went because we had him on board we had a squadron of Spitfires with us going down the Irish Sea and then we got down to the Irish, through the Irish Sea into the Channel, then it would be full steam ahead and then go down south into the South Pacific, South Atlantic so that you would avoid the submarines and then come up the coast of
DK: So, you weren’t actually in a convoy then, you [unclear]
HA: No, just a single ship
DK: Just the Queen Mary
HA: Yeah. It could outrun submarines
DK: Alright, so [unclear]
HA: And of course the submarine could, if it was very lucky, happen to be [unclear] our position to torpedo it but [unclear]
DK: Yeah, so are going at quite a speed then on the
HA: Yes, it could do thirty knots, twenty eight to thirty knots something like that but they were quite a quick [unclear] away but because of the length of the trip going down into the South Atlantic it took us best part of a week, I think
DK: And whereabouts in Canada did you dock, you remember?
HA: Well, we docked at New York
DK: Alright.
HA: We docked at New York and
DK: Was this, would this have been the first time you’d been over to another country in overseas?
HA: No, in, before I left school, I went on a school trip to Holland and Belgium and France
DK: Alright. Obviously the first time to America then
HA: First time to America, yeah, and then from New York we went up to Moncton in Canada which was via Boston and Providence and then we waited in Halifax until there was this place in a school for me to go to and then I was sent to Picton in
DK: In Picton
HA: Picton, yeah, in Ontario and did a bomb aimers course there and then after that I did a short navigation course
DK: So, what did the bomb aiming course involve then? What did you have to do?
HA: Well, it involved a whole of the theory of bombing, also all the things to do with the bombs and the components, so that you knew exactly what the bombs would do and what sort of fusing they had on them and pyrotechnics as well, so a lot of it was more or less, more armament than anything else and I’d be responsible for the bombload on the, on whatever aircraft I was flying at the time
DK: Can you remember what type of aircraft were training there?
HA: Yeah, yeah, Ansons
DK: Ansons, yeah
HA: And then we had Blenheim IVs,
DK: Right.
HA: Blenheim IVs we used as towing targets and also we were going to the turret of another one and fire at a drove that
DK: [unclear] being towed, yeah
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what did
HA: They were towed by Lysanders
DK: Lysanders. So, what did you think of Canada then, was it?
HA: Oh, it was fine, I mean, it was [unclear] really I suppose because when we went there it was still more or less summertime I think, I can’t quite remember when I went but
Dk: [unclear] people were training in winter [unclear] it was very cold
HA: Well we, when I’d finished training I went back to Halifax to wait for a boat, to take a ship to bring me back to England and that was in the winter and we had several feet of snow and I took the opportunity to go to Montreal and Quebec and also I took a couple of trips down to New York because we had a fair amount of time spare you know, it wasn’t something you [unclear] [mimics a bombing sound] that’s how you’re going to work, it was done over a period of time cause you never knew exactly when you were going anywhere
DK: No. So, what did the training actually involve? What are you also dropping dummy bombs as well or?
HA: Yes, yes, that’s in
DK: Is in one of the logbooks
HA: One of them, yeah, first of them
DK: That one, that’s, is that the first one?
HA: Right at the beginning
DK: So, I’ll read this out just for the benefit of the recording here, so you were with 31 Bombing and Gunnery School
HA: Yeah, that’s right, yeah, so, Picton
DK: Picton, Ontario, Canada,
HA: Yeah
DK: So, you’re going, you’re flying on Lysanders, no, you’re not flying, sorry, you’re flying on Ansons
HA: Yeah. Doing the bombing
DK: Yeah, flying on Ansons and the [unclear] which is the Blenheim.
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So it’s got example here is six bombs, there’s quite a number of flights on the Ansons then
HA: Yeah
DK: And the [unclear], yeah, and the Anson again
HA: And I went to the navigation school
DK: Alright, that’s
HA: At Mount, Mount Hope, Mount Hope is still in use in Canada as a major
DK: Funny enough I’m going there next month
HA: Oh yeah?
DK: Hamilton and Mount Hope, so this is, so then you went onto number 33 ANS
HA: Yes
DK: So that’s the Air Navigation
HA: Air Navigation
DK: Air Navigation School, yeah. And that was at Mount Hope,
HA: Yeah
DK: Hamilton, Ontario.
HA: Yeah
DK: So then you’re back on Ansons again
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was purely navigation training
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So it’s got where you had to fly from and to then
HA: Yeah, various cross-country trips
DK: Yeah. And then, so you’ve come back to the UK then
Ha: Yeah, then we went to Penrhos
DK: Penrhos, so that was number 9 AFU
HA: Yes, Advanced Flying School
DK: Number 9 Advanced Flying School
HA: And that was really to get you into, you know, into with the sort of weather that you would have in England which was obviously quite different to Canada, so that was an introduction to English weather
DK: So that was all air bombing training again
HA: Yeah
DK: Rather than navigation and that’s all on Ansons. What did you think of the Anson as an aircraft?
HA: [laughs] Well of course it was, well the first Anson I flew in you didn’t, you, to get the undercarriage up you had to
DK: Wind it up
HA: Wind it up [laughs], so you had the pilot sitting there, I was sitting here and I’d be winding up the undercarriage [laughs]
DK: So, how many of you would go on, roughly on one of these training? Was it you and a couple of other
HA: Yeah, just, yeah, yeah.
DK: So you also used the gun turret as well.
HA: Yes, yeah
DK: So you’re trained in air bombing, gunnery and navigation
HA: Yes
DK: Yeah. [unclear] the training there so then you’ve gone to number 29 Operational Training Unit at Bruntingthorpe
HA: Yeah, yeah, yeah
DK: That’s 29 OTU Bruntingthorpe
HA: Bruntingthorpe
DK: There you’re on the Wellingtons
HA: Yeah, this was crewing up with the idea of eventually going onto a squadron.
DK: So, how did you meet your crew then, was it at the OTU?
HA: Yeah, yeah. All that happened was that they would have enough people from the various trades to make up about eight or ten crews, something like that and you’d all be put into one room and told to mingle and sort yourself out in your crews.
DK: And through that you found your pilot and
HA: Yeah
DK: Navigator. How did you think that worked, cause it’s a bit unusual. Because normally
HA: It worked very well actually because I never knew anybody who was dissatisfied with the people that I picked up to fly with.
DK: Because it’s quite unusual really, it’s not normally how the military worked
HA: Yes
DK: You’re [unclear]
HA: That’s right, yeah.
DK: But you think that worked well then
HA: It did, yeah, I was crewed up with, where I found my pilot, he was an Australian, that’s how I got on the Australian squadron
DK: Can you remember his name?
HA: Yes, Hyland, Frank Hyland, H-Y-L-A-N-D
DK: Frank Hyland.
HA: Yeah. His name’s in there
DK: Yes, his name’s in there, yes, so he’s Flight Sergeant Hyland
HA: Yeah
DK: H-Y-L-A-N-D
HA: Yeah. Then later on when we were going, I’m not sure whether it was when we were there but he got commissioned
DK: Right, ok.
HA: And we weren’t very keen on that because in those days the, well, do you know the, if you were commissioned, you were a bit [unclear] from the people who weren’t commissioned and it tend to break up the crew so we weren’t keen on that
DK: Would he have been the only officer on the crew then?
HA: Yeah, he was
DK: So, once he was commissioned then, did that mean you didn’t socialise at all?
HA: That’s right. Well, that’s not true because we did, it was against the law, but you know, you’re not supposed to socialise with your lower ranks but we used to meet up in pubs, we already did you know, because at that time was when things were beginning to break down when it came to the, you know, the iron fist in the services, you know, became easier to meet with
DK: But on the station itself you’d be living separate
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: You’d be in the officer’s mess
HA: That’s it, that was why we didn’t like very much, I mean you couldn’t talk as much as you would like to about what you’d done or what you expected to do
DK: Which I would imagine would’ve been good for you, your job if you got to know each other better
HA: Well, it is, yes, it is, yes
DK: So, at 29 OTU then you were flying Wellingtons?
HA: Yes.
DK: And what did you think of the Wellington?
HA: They were marvellous aircraft really, they were geodetic construction which means they were as you probably know, teaching the conversion [laughs] but you know it’s like [unclear] with the canvas outside but they were remarkably strong and no, I thought they were great aircraft
DK: Right, so, so after 29 OTU then, gone on
HA: Then we started getting onto the Heavies
DK: Right, so
HA: And you didn’t go onto Lancasters straight away because all the Lancasters at that time were being used by frontline squadrons
DK: Alright. Ok, so then, just read your logbook again, you went to 1660
HA: Heavy Conversion Unit
DK: Heavy Conversion Unit and that was
HA: That was on Stirlings
DK: Right, so that’s at Swinderby
HA: Yeah
DK: [unclear] 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit, Swinderby and you’re flying Stirlings
HA: Stirlings, yeah
DK: What did you think of the Stirling?
HA: Not a lot [laughs], they were heavy, cumbersome things and they were all like, I think they got their design and that from people who worked on ships
DK: Right.
HA: I mean they were, they came from Ireland, Belfast and they’d been more used to work on ships than on aircraft
DK: And what was it like as an air bomber then? Because you’re at the front, are they quite high up?
HA: Oh yes,
DK: [unclear]
HA: Oh well, you don’t sit on the front for take-off
DK: Right, ok
HA: You come back and then you go down the front when you’re airborne
DK: I noticed you’re not having your coffee. [unclear]
US: [unclear] forgot it. He hasn’t brought it, has he?
DK: Right, ok, so, you’re
HA: I just done
DK: 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit
HA: That’s right, yes. And now next thing is the Lanc Finishing School which means that you go on to Lancasters and get tuned up on what’s happening before you go on the squadron.
DK: So that was, just for the benefit of the recording, making sure it’s working, is number 5 Lancaster Finishing School at Syerston
HA: Mhm.
DK: So you, so the idea is then you’ve gone from the Heavy Conversion Unit to then [unclear]
HA: To the aircraft you’re gonna fly on Bomber Command. And you know, you get used to it before you actually get sent to a squadron cause obviously when you get to the squadron you’re expected to be [unclear] with what’s going on
Dk: Alright. So what did you think of the Lancaster then when you?
HA: A marvellous aircraft [unclear], very strong and quite fast and a good altitude, the defence wasn’t so hot, it was on any aircraft
DK: No. You say the defence, was that a problem with the machine guns or?
HA: Well, they were too light, you know, they were 303s and people were firing at you with rockets and whatever, well not rockets but heavier, heavier
DK: Calibres
HA: Calibre
DK: Yeah. So, as the air bomber then, on Lancaster, was not too short [unclear], were you responsible for both dropping the bombs and the front gun turret?
HA: Yeah, I was responsible for all the armament really on the aircraft and we would go up before a raid and we used to harmonise the guns on the turrets, they would be harmonised the four guns in the rear turret, harmonised at about four hundred yards, in other when I say harmonised all four came to
DK: Came together
HA: Yeah, at that point and in the front you just had two guns and you harmonise those for probably about a hundred yards something like that
DK: And also, so did you have any other roles as the air bomber besides that, so you’re looking after the guns, dropping the bombs and
HA: Well, as soon as you went out to the aircraft, I was in charge of the bombs and so I would have to go round and inspect all the bombs and remove every safety devices that weren’t used once we were airborne so the rest of the armament would be made live once you got airborne and once the aircraft got to target and started to drop the bombs as the bombs came out of their holding and the last safety devices would be removed and the bomb would be live
DK: So how could you remove the last safety device when you’re in the air?
HA: Well, they would [unclear] electrically
DK: Ah, right
HA: You had the, how can I put it? You had something that was locked in and when you switched on the electrics the [unclear] would work and clamp onto that thing and hold it in position till the bomb had gone
DK: Right, and you could control that from
HA: Yeah
DK: Something in the, the bomb aimers area
HA: Yeah
DK: So you had a control panel who did that
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: Alright.
HA: And you could, if you got into trouble, you could drop all the bombs at once [unclear] panel showed that you could drop a salvo of bombs all at once so if you put it on that you could get rid of the whole immediately so if you were in trouble, you could lighten the aircraft by several thousand pounds you know
DK: Very quickly
HA: Yeah [phone rings]
DK: Ok. So, after the Lancaster Finishing School then, you’ve gone to number 463 Squadron Royal Australian Air Force
HA: Yeah
DK: Based at Waddington
HA: Yeah
DK: So we [unclear] that for the benefit of that and that was in first, so, November 1944 [unclear]
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: What did you think of Waddington when you got there?
HA: Well, we were very lucky really cause it’s a pre-war aerodrome with buildings, got accommodation as I said in my book there, some people were in Nissen huts you know in winter it was terribly cold and in summer they were really hot so they were quite uncomfortable, but we had permanent buildings to live in, we had a decent mess, we were really lucky
DK: And you mentioned you went to this particular squadron because your pilot was Australian?
HA: Yeah, we had an Australian wireless operator as well
DK: Right
HA: So we had two Australians on our, on our crew
DK: Can you still name the crew?
HA: Yes, Frank Hyland was the captain and the skipper
DK: Yeah
HA: I was the bomb aimer
DK: Yeah
HA: Navigator was Keith, what was his name?
DK: Listed in here?
HA: Yes, it is. Cause I was his best man
DK: Right.
US: [unclear]
DK: Frank Hyland, wasn’t that?
HA: Frank Hyland, yeah
DK: So, that’s your crew there
HA: Yeah
DK: So, you got Bob Stewart
HA: Yeah
DK: Eric
US: No.
HA: No, Eric is the only one that I, we couldn’t keep in contact with
DK: Alright
HA: After the war he just sort of disappeared and I found unfortunately, I’ve also forgotten his name as well
DK: Yeah, right. And then Ken Richardson?
HA: Yeah. He was the rear gunner
DK: Rear gunner. Keith Jenkins?
HA: Yeah, he was the navigator.
DK: Navigator.
HA: Yeah
DK: Frank Hyland
HA: He was the pilot
DK: Pilot. And then you got Max ?
HA: Yeah [unclear] I don’t remember his name, he was the other Aussie.
DK: So, he was the wireless operator [unclear]
HA: Wireless operator
DK: Yeah
HA: He was a great sportsman actually, he played for Australia after the war, rugby
DK: Alright. So I’ll, just for the benefit of the recording again, I’ll read this out again, so, from left to right you got, [unclear], Bob Stewart, he was the
HA: He was engineer
DK: Flight engineer
HA: Yeah
DK: Eric somebody, who was
HA: The mid upper gunner
DK: Mid upper gunner, Ken Richardson
HA: He was the rear gunner
DK: Rear gunner, Keith Jenkins,
HA: He was the navigator
DK: Navigator. Frank Hyland, pilot
HA: Was the pilot
DK: And the Max somebody
HA: Wireless operator
DK: Wireless operator and he was the Australian
HA: Yeah
DK: So, was 463 a good squadron, do you think?
HA: Yes, well, the thing was that you were only on the squadron for about six months really, in general you know, you don’t, you’re not gonna be on it for years and at that time you don’t get to know people all that well but because you’re, not really with the other squadron, the other crews, your, it’s your crew you were interested in
DK: Yes, yeah. So, you didn’t mix too much?
HA: Not all that much, no, we, as a crew we always stuck together and when went out socializing we always stuck together, we all had bikes you know, we just cycled down the pub, the Horse and Jockey at
US: Coningsby?
HA: No, The Horse and Jockey at, quite close to Waddington, Bracebridge Heath
DK: Bracebridge Heath. Yeah.
HA: Yeah
DK: Is it still there?
HA: Yeah
DK: Oh, right, I’ll have to go along to it at some point
HA: Yeah [laughs]
DK: See if they remember you [laughs]. So, looking at your logbook again then you got your first operation to Heilbronn?
HA: Heilbronn, yes
DK: Heilbronn, just for the benefit of the recording, H-E-I-L-B-R-O-N-N
HA: Yeah
DK: So, your bombs then are thirteen thousand pounds
HA: Yeah
DK: So, one
HA: One four thousand pounder
DK: Six
HA: Six one thousand pounders
DK: And six five hundred pounders
HA: Yeah
DK: So how did you feel after you’re done, after all this training and done your first operation?
HA: Oh, relieved I suppose, I managed to do one without getting shot down [laughs]. I mean the thing is lots of people joined the Air Force, they never managed to do very much because they got shot down on the first trip, you know, but to survive one tour [unclear] was very fortunate but Dinah’s father, he also was a navigator
DK: Alright.
HA: And he did eighty-three operations, oh, eighty-eight operations, he got, he was ordered a DFC and bar.
DK: What was his name?
US: Mayson
DK: Mayson, alright.
HA: M-A-Y-S-O-N.
DK: M-A-Y-S-O-N, I’ll make a note of that. Alright, so and he flew how many operations?
HA: Eighty-eight, I think it was.
US: I think it’s eighty-six, for all he said.
HA: Oh yeah, it’ll be eighty-six. Yeah, eighty-six.
DK: Can you recall which squadron he was in?
HA: Yes, [unclear] somewhere
US: I am not as old as Harry, so
HA: Not many are [laughs]
US: During the war, we stayed at home, he went and I didn’t really know an awful lot about it
HA: So, he was on Pathfinders as well, he flew on Lancasters, he flew on Mosquitoes,
DK: And so he was a pilot or?
HA: No, a navigator
DK: Navigator, sorry, navigator, yeah
HA: Actually I think he had the same sort of introduction to the RAF as I did, I think he used to wear an O badge, observer, observer was the same sort of thing as bomb and navigation which I did so I think we both did the same sort of course initially and then he went back onto navigation before I did
DK: Alright, and did eighty-three ops
HA: Yes, eighty-three ops. I think he did about thirty on Berlin
DK: Wow!
HA: [laughs]
DK: Ok, just for the benefit of the tape again, just going back to your logbook, so your second operation then, 6th of
HA: Giessen
DK: February 1944 to Giessen
HA: Yeah
DK: And there you got elven thousand pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was twelve one thousand pounders
HA: Yeah
DK: An interesting one next so, the 8th of December, operations to the Urft Dam
HA: Yes
DK: U-R-F-T Dam
HA: Well, that’s in green, it’s daylight
DK: Daylight
HA: But it was clouded over, we didn’t
DK: Cause you got, it says here, eight thousand five hundred pounds, no bombs dropped
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was because it was
HA: Weather,
DK: Weather
HA: Couldn’t see the target
DK: No. Would that be normal then, if you couldn’t see the target you’d bring the bombs back?
HA: I don’t know if it would be normal, but we probably got recalled and it was probably said in the brief [unclear] did not jettison or something like that
DK: Oh, ok. And what was it like flying at night compared to day? Did you prefer one to the other?
HA: Oh yes, night flying was always a bit hairy because we went, you take off say from Waddington and it’s probably dark when you take off, you may well have seen the odd aircraft crash you know and you knew that it could be a bit dodgy taking off at night time with all that load of armament on board
DK: Yeah, and the petrol as well
HA: Yeah. Yeah
DK: Ok, so just going through this again then so you had another operation recalled here, so that’s the 10th of December 1944, operation recalled and then,
HA: Where was that to?
DK: It doesn’t actually, it just says, operation recalled
HA: How many hours did it do?
DK: Two hours forty-five
HA: They got started
DK: And then on the 11th of December 1944 it’s the Urft Dam again
HA: Yeah
DK: U-R-F-T,
HA: Again
DK: Ten thousand pounds, no bombs dropped
HA: Again [unclear]
DK: Ten tenth cloud. Ah, and then 18th of December 1944, operations to Gdynia. That was
DK: It’s in Poland, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah, bombing the German fleet which had taken position in Gdynia and we’re bombing them
DF: And that says thirteen thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DF: And it does actually say in pencil here, Poland bombing German fleet
HA: Yes, right.
DF: And it says landing FIDO
HA: Oh yeah, FIDO, that was, yeah, when we came back it was
DG: Fog
HA: Fog everywhere and we didn’t really know where we were too well and we were told to fly on dead reckoning and wondering whether we would be able to find anywhere to land because you couldn’t get in contact with people without the aerodromes like you could today, there was no VHF or UHF, it was HF, HF was short range communication and so, you know, it was sometimes very difficult to get in touch with people that could help you, so we were just flying along wondering what was going to happen whether we’d have to bail out or [unclear] because we couldn’t find anywhere to land when in the distance we saw a glow in the sky and we flew towards it and then when we got there we realized it was FIDO which is a method of dispersing the fog and we were able to get down and land
DK: That was petrol set like each side of the runway
HA: Yes, petrol, clean burning petrol which dispersed the fog
DK: I bet that was an impressive sight
HA: Oh, it was
DK: [unclear] [laughs]
HA: This was at Carnaby
DK: Carnaby, right, ok.
HA: And the
DK: Was it a bit of a relief to see that then?
HA: Oh, it was, yeah, and there were lots of other aircraft already managed to land on it, the whole aerodrome was covered in aircraft that had managed to get in
DK: So then, next operation then, 12th of December 1944, operations to Politz
HA: Politz, that’s an oil refinery, a big oil refinery
DK: And that was twenty thousand two hundred and fifty pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DF: So, one four thousand pounds and six one thousand pound bombs. So, then we’re into 1945 here, so 13th, I think that’s just 13th of January ‘45
HA: Yeah
DK: So, Politz again
HA: Yeah
DK: One four thousand pound bomb and fourteen five hundred pounds of bombs. And then 14th of January 1945, Wurzburg
HA: There’s an oil refinery
DK: Oil refinery again and then 1st of February ’45, Siegen
HA: Siegen, yeah
DK: S-I-E-G-E-N
HA: I don’t remember much about that
DK: And then 2nd of February ’45 operations to Karlsruhe
HA: Where? Karlsruhe? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah
DK: And then 13th of February 1945 operations to Dresden.
HA: Yeah
DK: So that was, it says here supporters,
HA: It means that we went around twice
DK: Right
HA: Because what it means is that you go in, drop your bombs and then to give support to those who were still coming in after you go round again, so that [unclear] far ahead [laughs]
DK: Alright. So that’s saying thirteen thousand seven hundred bombs, one four thousand pounder and elven, can’t quite read what that says,
HA: I’ll have a look
DK: Yeah. Is that incendiaries?
HA: Eleven cans, be eleven cans of incendiaries
DK: Eleven cans of incendiaries, right. Do you remember much about the Dresden raid?
HA: Well, yes, I suppose, I remember more than the rest because I suppose I probably brought it to mind because people keep talking about it [laughs]. As far as I was concerned, Dresden was just another town. I mean, I left school when I was fourteen, so I wasn’t all that well educated and Dresden, you know, was just another town
DK: Yeah, just another operation
HA: Yeah, another operation. I remember it because it did burn, I mean without a doubt it was a hell of a burn but
DK: So then 3rd of March 1945 operations to the Dortmund-Ems Canal
HA: Yeah
DK: So then, 5th of March ’45, operations to Bohlen
HA: Bohlen?
DK: B-O-H-L-E-N.
HA: Bohlen.
DK: Bohlen. And then 7th of March Harburg, 12th of March Dortmund, 14th of March Lutzkendorf
HA: Lutzkendorf, that’s another oil refinery
DK: And then it’s got, I notice you landed back at Alconbury
HA: Oh yes, yes
DK: Which was
HA: Oh, is an American base again was being in the fog or something like that we were being diverted there. I remember that because we were eating in the, I remember the soup in there was full of pepper [laughs] couldn’t possibly eat it and I said to this chap, why did you put that much pepper in this? He said, because I like it [laughs].
DK: Making taste, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah
DK: And then 20th of March ’45 Bohlen again, B-O-H-L-E-N. Then 22nd of March Bremen and then 27th of March Farge, F-A-R-G-E.
HA: Farge
DK: Farge, F-A-R-G-E. The war’s ended, are we? So, 4th of April Nordhausen.
HA: Nordhausen.
DK: Yes, 7th of
HA: Nordhausen was where they were firing the rockets from on London
DK: Oh, right. Would you, would you tell, can you recall if you were actually told about that, at the briefing
HA: Oh yes.
DK: What the target was?
HA: Oh yes. We were told what we were looking for, because these rockets that they were firing at London, they were coming out of woods and that sort of thing so they were extremely difficult to find, what we were looking for but they weren’t anywhere else you know and London was really getting a pasting with bombs and rockets
DK: The V2s
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HA: Yeah.
DK: So, 7th of April, the operation seems to be recalled and then I can’t quite, it’s something 8th of April I think it is, operations to Lutzkendorf again
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s a supporters as well
HA: Yeah
DK: So would that mean you’ve gone round
HA: Yeah
DK: Twice again
HA: Yeah
DK: Then there was fifteen thousand two hundred and fifty pounds bombs, one four thousand pounder and fourteen five hundred pounds. And then 23rd of April Flensburg, and it says no bombs dropped
HA: Yeah, well, the war was very nearly closed then, very near to close and I think that was probably the last, one of the last targets that were nominated for
DK: And then I see the next few flights then was Operation Exodus
HA: Yeah, that was
DK: After that
HA: Yeah, that was picking up prisoners of war, British prisoners of war and bringing them back to England.
DK: That must have been quite [unclear]
HA: Oh yes, yeah
DK: Yeah. What sort of shape were the POWs in?
HA: Oh, very poor shape, yeah. And then of course, I didn’t actually do any, but they were also dropping food to Holland at that time.
DK: So, you didn’t do any Operation Manna flights?
HA: No, no.
DK: And then you’ve got Cook’s Tour.
HA: Well, that was just a sort of swan around Germany to see what damage [unclear] you caused [laughs].
DK: And presumably that would’ve been the first time you’d seen the damage then, was that
HA: Well, you could see it in daylight, if you did the odd daylight trip, as we did, you would see [unclear]
DK: And did the Cook’s Tour event involve taking the people on the aircraft?
HA: Yeah
DK: The ground staff
HA: Yeah, yeah
DK: So you had a circular flight there
HA: Yeah
DK: Munster, Dusseldorf, Essen, Cologne, Munich, Glad, sorry, Monchen Gladbach, then back to base. So the war has come to an end then
HA: Yeah
DK: What did you do at that point then?
HA: I went to India
DK: Oh, right [laughs]
HA: In India they were going to demilitarize the Air Force there and most of the aircrew were [unclear] obviously they were the war [unclear] at a close but on the other hand there was, the fight was still going on with the Japanese so to some extent they wanted to have aircrew out in the Far East to take over bombing of Japan if
DK: Right
HA: If it became necessary. And we went to India with that intention but in fact what we did was to demilitarize the Air Force and we had to, the way we did it was to get the [unclear] in groups and take their uniforms and that sort of thing from them, pay them and organize transport for them to get back to home
DK: Alright. So it’s quite a different
HA: Oh, quite different altogether, yeah
DF: So, you weren’t considered to be flying out operations against Japan then?
HA: No
DF: No
HA: No. The only aircraft that we had that could possibly have done that was a Lincoln at that time
DF: Right
HA: But the Lincoln hasn’t actually been put on the squadrons at the end of the war, they never flew during the war on operations in England or in Europe rather.
DF: So, the war is ended, so it’s 1948 now and you’re
HA: I’m back from India
DF: India and then you’re going to number 2 ANS
HA: Yeah
DF: At Middleton Ste George. Was it, did you make a decision then to stay in the Air Force?
HA: Oh yes, yes, I applied to join before, I forget what years it was but eventually I was signed on till I was fifty-five. I didn’t serve until I was fifty-five because there was a Labor government in and they decided that they wanted to reduce the number of people into services and so there was a redundancy scheme offered and because we had three boys, we didn’t really want the family split up which would’ve been if I had carried on the Air Force, they’d had to go to school, [unclear] live in the school somewhere and I’d have to [unclear] somewhere
DK: And can you remember what year it was you left then?
HA: Yeah, I left in, what year was that?
DF: [unclear], ’49, ‘53,
HA: What year I left the Air Force? Oh, ‘69.
DK: ’69, right, yeah.
HA: Yeah, ’69.
DK: So, you’ve now trained as a navigator then
HA: Yeah, at Middleton St George
DK: Yeah. Let’s go through this, so, number 201 AFS
HA: And I was back then on Lancasters
DK: And Wellingtons by the looks of it
HA: Yeah was, yeah that was to crew up again
DK: Yeah
HA: Cause I’d been on a different crew
DK: And then 1949 Lancasters again with 149 Squadron
HA: Yeah
DK: At Mildenhall. And by this time, you are a fully-fledged navigator
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So these, some of the last Lancasters built, aren’t they?
HA: [unclear] what?
DK: Some of the Lancaster here, they’d be quite old by this time
HA: Oh yes, they would, yeah
DK: [unclear] crew here now, 1949 so Lancasters
HA: And
DK: So you’re with 149 Squadron for quite a while then.
HA: Yeah
DK: ’49. Then to the Central Gunnery School
HA: Yeah
DK: Lancasters again
HA: That was to get a qualification as an instructor on [unclear]
DK: So 1950 then you’re now on the Avro Lincoln
HA: Yeah
DK: What did you think of the Lincoln compared to the Lancaster, was it?
HA: It was bigger, better armed, cannons on the front, machine guns, but I don’t think, they were just a bigger version, that’s all [unclear] Lancaster I suppose
DK: So, then it was number 44 Rhodesia squadron at Whitten
HA: Yeah
DK: That’s Lincolns again
HA: Yeah [unclear]
DK: And then the 149 Squadron, the Washington conversion unit
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s August 1950
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s at Marham
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what did you think of the Washington then?
HA: Oh, they were marvelous really cause they were, you fly unpressurised in them and they had a tube which ran from the front down to the back and you could actually bomb using radar equipment that was at the rear and you could actually guide the aircraft from the back
DK: Alright
HA: Using the radar target that you could see
DK: And that controlled the aircraft
HA: Yeah
DK: Is it true that B-29s had ashtrays?
HA: We didn’t [laughs]
DK: The Americans put ashtrays in the [unclear]
HA: I remember, we did use to smoke in there
DK: They had ashtrays. Were you impressed by the Washington then?
HA: Yes, yes, it was a big aircraft and carried a big load
DK: So, 149 Squadron again with Washingtons, right into 1951, so it’s mostly all training then
HA: Yeah, you could do the sort of flight you could do in a B-29 would last about sixteen hours
DK: Alright.
HA: When, there’s one in there, I think, sixteen hours we went there onto Africa and back non-stop
DK: You flew on the Washingtons for quite some time, didn’t you?
HA: Yeah.
DK: And this was all from the UK
HA: Yeah
DK: And then I see, so it’s 203 Squadron Coastal Command, then 236 OCU at Kinloss on the Neptunes
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what was the Neptunes like?
HA: It was good aircraft too, it was only two engines but it had [unclear] endurance, it did one time hold the record for endurance flying, the aircraft was called the reluctant turtle [laughs]
DK: That’s up to 1954 then when you
HA: Ah yes, I got commissioned in ‘54
DK: Ok, that’s, just one final question, just looking back at your time specifically with RAF Bomber Command in the war, how do you look back on that period now?
HA: I don’t think it ever, I mean, never, I don’t know, it never bothered me, you know, I read of some people getting bothered [unclear] about what you did and that sort of thing, it never bothered me, I mean, I was, I went through the Blitz in London, I was in the, we used to do fire watching and I remember London burning and when I was at, as a boy, you know, doing this office job as it were, we used to do at least one night a week fire watching and I can remember bomb was falling and terrific fires and we were putting these fires out, you know, and I remember one particular incident where sticker bombs fell into the water about a hundred yards away from us I think, but because they fell in the water there was no damage was done, you know, we didn’t get hurt but I mean, I had to [unclear] quite a lot from the Germans so I didn’t feel I was doing anything I shouldn’t do as far as I was concerned, I was defending my life and the life of my family.
DK: Ok, that’s great, we’ll stop there
HA: Ok.
DK: You’re absolutely marvelous. No, thank you very much for your time. It’s been wonderful, I think we covered everything.
HA: Ok [laughs].
DK: Just for the benefit, thanks very much for that.
HA: Do you
DK: There’s a notice here in the book. I thought you left the service at the time of the Neptunes but you went on, did you go onto the Shackletons after that?
HA: Yes.
DK: So you went to Guyana?
HA: Went to Guyana, yeah.
DK: And that’s cause it burnt down.
HA: Sorry?
DK: You said it was burnt down.
HA: Well the [unclear] Georgetown in Guyana was set on fire, yeah but the government decided, the British government decided they’d have to send troops out there
DK: Alright
HA: And so we carried the troops out there that meant these chaps we were taken out, had a very horrible journey because they had been taken from Ireland where we were based to [unclear], [unclear] down to Bermuda, Bermuda then out to Jamaica
DK: Right
HA: And then Jamaica to Guyana, all they had was a hard floor to lie on
DK: And that was on the Shackletons
HA: Yeah, you know, they didn’t have anything decent to lie on
DK: So what was the Shackletons like as aircraft [unclear]
HA: Well, they were really good aircraft, they did the job
DK: Yeah
HA: But I mean this was, they weren’t made for that sort of thing
DK: Yeah
HA: Carrying troops
DK: So, what was your normal role in Shackletons then?
HA: Again, I was first navigator on most of these trips.
DK: Alright. And that’s through the Cold War, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah
DK: You’re keeping an eye on the Russians.
HA: That’s right, yeah. And our sort of flying was, flying training was locating submarines and practice bombing them, that sort of thing
DK: Oh, right. Did you actually identify Russian submarines?
HA: Oh yes. Yes, you’d pick up a contact on radar and then you’d home into the contact and if you were lucky you’d probably find the submarine at the end, probably just diving, you know, realisng that it’d been found
DK: And would you make a dummy attack on it?
HA: Yeah
DK: Trying to go down
HA: There’s one trip we did in southern UK we came across about, well, I think there must have been about twenty Russian ships, a whole fleet in the Atlantic
DK: They didn’t ever fire on you then, did they?
HA: No, but they always turned their guns on us
DK: Alright.
HA: They were always pointing their guns at us.
DK: And you could see that [unclear]
HA: Yeah. We would never actually overfly them knowingly, just, we would just [unclear] round them
DK: So you went out to Rhodesia, was it Rhodesia then, wasn’t it?
HA: Yeah, we went down to South Africa
DK: Yeah
HA: And then I did quite a lot of flying from the Middle East when the [unclear] on
DK: Oman
HA: No, I’m sorry, my mind isn’t quite as quick as it should be. Cyprus
DK: Cyprus, yes, yeah.
HA: And then, there was some other in, where was that? Anyway, if you, it’s in that book
DK: Yes, it mentioned Oman here, yeah
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. And then later the government came along and [unclear] the redundancy
HA: Yeah, I joined Barclay’s bank then [laughs]
DK: So, you did almost twenty-seven years in the Royal Air Force
HA: Yeah
DK: And then ten years in Barclay’s?
HA: Twenty years
DK: Twenty years in Barclay’s. Oh right, ok. Good bank Barclay’s. [unclear] Ok, that’s great, I’ll [unclear], but thanks again for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Algar
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAlgarH170520, PAlgarH1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:55:27 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Algar worked as an office boy at Hay’s Wharf in London before the war. He entered the Air Training Corps before joining the RAF when he was seventeen. Started his training on Tiger Moths but was then sent to Canada to remuster as a bomb aimer. Remembers travelling on the Queen Mary, where he was assigned to escort Winston Churchill, and his training in Canada on Ansons and Blenheims IV. After completing his training, he was posted to 463 Squadron (RAAF) at RAF Waddington. Describes his role and his duties as a bomb aimer. Remembers some of his operations: coming back from an operation to Poland targeting the German fleet, they encountered heavy fog and managed to land safely at Carnaby airfield thanks to the fog dispersal system; taking part at the Dresden operation on the 13th of February 1945; operation to Nordhausen on the 4th of April 1945 to disrupt V2 rocket launches on London. He took part in Operation Exodus. At the end of the war, was posted to India. After the war, he trained as a navigator and flew on Neptunes, B-29s and Shackletons. Remembers fire-watching as a little boy during the Blitz in London and tells of a bomb dropping a few hundred yards away from him, leaving him unscathed.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Canada
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
149 Squadron
1660 HCU
29 OTU
463 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
B-29
Blenheim
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Cook’s tour
FIDO
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Carnaby
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
Shackleton
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/237/3381/PCooperJ1602.1.jpg
6f8734ad672efbc8cddbda087ea8bff8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/237/3381/ACooperJ160727.2.mp3
edac21553fa5ecd239dc7b655036871d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cooper, John
John Cooper
J Cooper
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One oral history interview with John Cooper (b. 1924, 1827988 Royal Air Force).
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2016-07-27
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Cooper, J
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DM.This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre the interviewer is David Meanwell the interviewee is John Cooper. The interview is taking place at Mr Coopers home in Sandhurst in Berkshire on the twenty seventh of July 2016. Now John perhaps you could tell me a little about where you were born and your early life.
JC. Alright well, I was born at Sheringham and I lived there for ten years and then we moved to Aylsham just half way between Sheringham and Norfolk and when I left the Grammar School at North Walsham I went into the bank for about a year and eh by that time eh the war was on and I went up to Norwich and volunteered for Aircrew and they put me eh down as under training, PNB which is Pilot, Navigator, Bomb Aimer and eh I think about nine months later I eh think it was I was, I was called, I went into the Air Force in October 1943. I did my eh Initial Training Wing at Aberystwyth and I then went to eh Cliffe Pypard to do my grading school and if I can remember rightly I was one out of eight I think it was out of the fifty who were told we were going for Pilot training. Eh a lot of the eh others went as Bomb Aimers because with the bigger aeroplanes coming in there was quite a demand for them. I had to wait quite a long time before anything turned up, I was at Heaton Park at Manchester, the Aircrew Reception Centre for roughly nine months, waiting around to go to the next stage of training but eventually to my delight I went up to Greenock where we went on the Queen Mary and off we went to eh New York. From New York we then went on a train up to New Brunswick in Canada and eh to be kitted out because we found we were going to a flying school at Miami, we thought marvellous. Miami nice warm sunshine, lots of girls marvellous, but it was Miami, Oklahoma right in the middle of America as far from the sea as you could possibly get in any direction and eh anyway we spent about four days on the train going to Miami and eh that was to Number Three British Flying Training School. It was so hot, it really was but it was really nice. Our course, our school had eh PT19 Cornells as a primary trainer, all the others had eh Steermans but our school had, had PT19s. We did about seventy or eighty hours on those and then eh we started on the Harvard and eh almost near the end of the Harvard course the eh the Atom Bombs had been dropped on Japan and suddenly without warning the school closed. We had about ten hours to go I think to eh, we done some of the flying tests, we had done some of the wings exams. We were about an ace from graduating and the Americans said, “what a pity that we got to stop, couldn’t we just carry on those few extra days?” but no we couldn’t. So we were very downhearted about that and eventually we went back to New York by train, had about a weeks leave there and came home on the Aquitania back to the UK. We landed at Southampton and we went up to Morecambe which was a holding unit and nobody really seemed to know what to do with us and eh [unreadable] we were sent to and eh that was a hive of activity with thousands of redundant aircrew and us as well and cadets who hadn’t graduated. We had to wait around there for weeks and weeks and weeks and we were given the choice of signing on for three years in the Air Force and finishing our training if we wanted to do that or probably waiting for a couple of years for our demob number to come up. So I opted to stay in the Air Force and went to Church Lawford eventually and eh joined a course half way through because we had already done a couple of hundred hours flying you see, and eh so we graduated from there. Having done that we still had to wait around for the next op, because at that time with all the redundancies and this that and the other the Air Force wasn’t sure what to do with all those people. But eventually I went to Finningley to eh a Wellington School and did a course on the, on the Wellington. And eh by this time it was nineteen eh, oh I can’t remember oh about nineteen forty seven I suppose. From there I went to Lindholme to eh the OCU Lancaster OCU and eh and trained on the Lancaster which was lovely getting my hands on, it really was. Having done that I was eh posted to 101 Squadron at Binbrook, they didn’t have the Lancaster they got rid of theirs and they got the Lincoln which of course was the bigger version as you probably know. The engines were bigger, the wing span was about twenty foot bigger altogether a bigger aeroplane but it was much the same inside. And then so I, I started out I was a Sergeant Pilot then and eh. The crewing up at Lindholme, just going back a bit, the way of doing it, we were just shoved in a room with assorted eh categories and told to sort yourself out into a Crew. Which eventually we did and eh, and eh Binbrook here we come “I will just stop for a minute.” I joined 101 Squadron at Binbrook in nineteen forty eight incredibly over five years since I first joined the Air Force. About four and a half years since I joined ACRC. No fault of mine then eh, but we operated just as it had been during the war going round Europe, lots of practise bombing, we used to go to Helgoland to drop my bombs and eh and cross countries. Sort of things we did, I remember one day we, we did a long cross country over, into the North Atlantic and we decided to make Rockall our target, you know that tiny little island in the middle of nowhere and we got there. It is the tip of a volcano I think and eh I flew around the thing and I couldn’t believe it my Navigator didn’t even come out and have a look at it. I just couldn’t understand that, it’s strange really. But eh we went to Egypt in October of eh, of eh that year to Shallufa for a months training. During that visit I was one of a pair that flew down to Khartoum for a couple of nights, so I dropped my first four thousand pound Cookie part of a ten thousand pound bomb load on the range which I think woke the whole city up really. Coming back again I, I, we landed at Castleton Heath there the same as we had done going out to there and I had to land at Isteris near Marseilles with and engine snag and I was there for about four days before coming back to Lyneham. I happen to, to the customs as we were going back to Binbrook on November the Fifth fireworks night. So I took the liberty of going back to Binbrook at fairly low level watching all the fireworks on the way up. In November the Squadron was given a new task on top of everything else, the Bomber Command Meteorological Flight it meant all out aircraft had to have special instruments fitted plus an additional crew member, a Met Observer, he was usually a retrained a redundant Pilot and we eh had about twelve special routes around the British Isles, mainly over the Atlantic, South West approaches to gather met data to be transmitted to the, to the Air Ministry. I did the first one the Squadron was called on to do, it meant being called at Oh five hundred hours and me getting in touch. I was still a Sergeant Pilot and I had to contact One Group to be briefed on the days route and then with the Navigator and Met Observer getting everything organised for a take off at eight o clock on the dot we made a game of that, on the dot. The first one was out over the Atlantic, heights varied from a hundred feet to eighteen thousand feet, doing box climbs and descents. The second one I did on the eighth of December nineteen forty eight was a bit more interesting. As usual eight o clock take off from Binbrook but just off Hartland Point the port engine, port inner engine which meant a return to base at Binbrook. I was a bit cross when I was told I would have to take the reserve aircraft, instead of the relief crew who of course hadn’t been briefed but orders are orders as they say, so of we went and eh and we spent about thirteen hours in the air that day. At least the whole crew and I got a special commendation for that from the AOC of Number One Group. Em they were called Pamper those eh, those weather flights, I, I flew twenty one of them all together by the time we had them. They made life interesting in a way because they were often flown through really lousey weather regardless having got airbourne at eight o clock having, without having any idea where you might finish up on the day and eh and sometimes we were the only aircraft in the Air Force airborne as far as we could make out, apart from the other met flight place, in Northern Ireland, what do you call it, I forget what it is called now eh. On my fifteenth Pamper there was a special for the next day because eh a couple of the Squadrons were going out to Egypt for some sort of exercise. We had to go into the Bay of Biscay to check up on, on the weather and eh we had a lightning strike climbing up through the innocuous little cloud. There was a great big bang which blew an enormous hole in one wing tip and also blew the radios including the intercom and the Wireless Op was transmitting directly to the Air Ministry at the time. I suppose he is lucky not to have been hurt when the trailing aerial blew. When we wound it in there was only about twelve feet out of two hundred and fifty feet of it left. Anyway eh I diverted into Bordeaux it was a bit of an excuse to go into France you know and we went in I went in there, not on the radio two hours later and so I taxied in. [Pause] Right well eh I think I said I had passed it all to the UK. Apparently a general alert had been put out because of the abrupt stoppage of the message due to the lightning strike. We were able to get the aircraft fixed overnight. There were half a dozen French Navy Lancasters there and they had common equipment with us even one of two [unreadable] radio crystals. I eh paid Heligoland for night position nineteen fortynine[unreadable] to drop maybe five hundred pound bombs plus incendiary clusters and we also started doing quite a bit of formation flying that mid summer. I used to fly in the number three position that’s on the left hand side of the Leader. To [unreadable] Newcastle, the daily express joke, Gatwick, the AOCs departure, Birmingham, Battle of Britain fly past and eh that was the day we did a low level beat up of twenty one airfields that day, that was really hard, hard work. Really tight over the airfield and open up a little bit, just have a slight rest and get in tight again. I got a lovely photograph that I can show you over Odiham that day. My Brother saw it on the Aldershot News and then he wrote to them and they sent that for a couple of coppers which was really nice. A week later something quite nasty happened. I was one of about thirty Lincolns approaching Newark Power Station on a, on a night exercise when two of them in front of me collided and eh they sort of burst into flames and crashed with no survivors at all and I and several others switched on our navigation lights and suddenly the sky was ablaze with lights. They all switched off, I think it probably felt safer in the dark I, I had the job of taking some camera men around to take some air to ground photographs the next day of the crash site, not very nice. Eh in December nineteen forty nine the World was changing. Our aircraft used for Pamper flights were fitted with lots of filters on the nose and on the fourth of December I was called to do a series of special Pampers. The aircraft were fitted with two four hundred gallon tanks in the bomb bay giving a total fuel capacity of four thousand four hundred gallons. My brief was to fly as far North as possible before turning back, nobody told me why at the time. I found out much later it was thought that the Russians had exploded an Atomic Bomb and that was the reason for the filters. So much for my family prospects. [laugh]. That Sunday morning again at eight o clock I roared across the hangers and domestic site at very low level just to wake everybody up as we flew away and off we went. The target was Jan Mayen Island the one above the Arctic Circle. The fuel was measured carefully on the way North to ensure that there would always be enough to get back to base. We saw Jan Mayen below us visually and on the H2S Radar so the plotted winds must have been ok and could be used on the way home. Also there was enough fuel in the aircraft, there was a good reserve of margin. It was decided to route via the Faroes on the way back, it was marginally further, they would provide a good check point. About one hours from starting south what appeared to be a coast line showed on the H2S on the starboard side which I thought was rather odd. Then after about an other hour what looked like heavy clouds from a distance began to look like mountains which indeed they were. They were certainly not the Faroes because I had seen them on earlier Pampers and we realised later on that the coastline had been the edge of the Greenland Ice Cap. Using Consul help to navigate was not good because due to an oxygen lack I was down to about ten thousand feed and the Wop could not raise any stations as we were in some sort of a radio mush. I thought it was Iceland and tried calling Reykyavick on 121.5 the Emergency Frequency but to no avail. I told the Navigator that I was turning onto a South Easterly heading, if it was Iceland we would be heading roughly towards Scotland, if not then who knows. Roughly one hour later we crossed a coastland from land to sea, which suggested Iceland. By this time the two bomb bay tanks had long been used up. My Flight Engineer was monitoring the fuel and getting the revs down as far as he dared to maximise our range and the airspeed lowered by about thirty knots. At last the Wop managed to contact Number One Group, told them of our plight and they arranged for the Royal Naval Air Station at Lossiemouth to open up especially for us. That is if we could reach them because it was a Sunday as I had previously said. We crossed into North West Scotland on a lovely clear night by then but we were all freezing cold having sat in temperatures of around minus forty degrees, minus forty centigrade is not the same as minus forty Fahrenheit so that was about seventy two degrees of frost at least. I did manage to land at Lossiemouth after two attempts in a heavy snow shower and fourteen hours in the air. When the aircraft was checked the next day before refuelling, the form seven hundred the aircraft log, said no measurable fuel in the aircraft. Back at Binbrook the next day the Wingco flying Hamish Mahaddie talked to me about it and the Nav section went into a big hudle and came to the conclusion that we must have run into a Jetstream which in those days nobody heard very much of. Anyway five days later I did another one and turned round at the Faroes because eh we didn’t have to go so far. I diverted into Middleton St George on that. On the sixteenth another one returned from fifty seven north having jettisoned six hundred gallons of fuel. The final twenty first Pamper to the Faroes and back on the twentieth of December. I certainly had my share of cold weather operations and the forth of December nineteen forty nine as certainly a day for me to remember ever more. Anyway I went from a freezing December to a red hot February nineteen fifty I spent that month again in Shallufa, Egypt staging both there and back by Castle Benetto, did a lot of fighter affil and air to air gunnery. Some air to ground gunnery, very low level and dropped some five hundred pound bombs on the target we had at Habbaniya, Iraq and back to the UK. It was the same old routine apart from a lot of formation flying fly past at Woodford, Number One Group Headquarters over Bawtry. The Kings birthday flypast over Buckingham Palace on the eighth of June. My very last time flying a Lincoln in the leading vic of sixty aircraft over Farnborough for the RAF display on the seventh of July. All together I flew eight hundred and eighty hours on Lancs and Lincolns but eh I was pleased to finish on a high note. Mind you not only was it was announced in the London Gazette that I had been awarded the Air Force Medal but I was also on my way to the OCTU at Kirton Lindsey so eh, and I was commissioned on my twenty first birthday which caused a lot of who, ha when filling in forms, “you put the same date, have you done it right?”[laugh]. I had applied to go to the Central Flying School on an Instructors course but after OCTU I was posted to Marham to the B29 they called them the Washington in the RAF but two weeks into the intensive Ground School came a big dilemma for me. The chance to go to CFS came up and I was given twenty four hours to decide. I plumped for CFS I was posted to Oakington in Cambridgeshire about twenty hours refresher flying on the Harvard and started on the CFS course at Little Rissington on the twenty eighth of December although the snow was thick on the ground. A really intensive course especially the class room theory and once or twice I thought have I done the right thing having given up the B29 for this. I flew about ninety hours just learning to be an Instructor, quite a lot of that time with a fellow student practicing the patter. There were thirty of us on the course I was pleased to finish with five others, I think it was five with a B1 category. The rest passed out with a B2 and I was posted to 3 FTS in Norfolk and eh so I went up there in a lovely old white SS Jaguar with another guy who was posted there. I left my motor bike at, at, at Rissie at CFS and went back for it later. It was quite nice to be back in our home county again but it turned out I did do the right thing because a young WAAF Officer turned up in the Mess one day and mine were two of many eyes that followed her round the room. Em We got married actually on the eighteenth of March nineteen fifty three and we lived in a caravan near Methwold our satellite airfield, there were no married quarters for newly weds. And eh the flying was quite intense, there were four students at the beginning of each course and before going solo on the Harvard each student has to do four periods of stalling and spinning apart from general handling and circuits and bumps which meant for me at least forty, four forty five minutes sorties each day for the first two or three weeks. But eh this gradually changed, the students went solo, you know sort of fifty fifty and eh that went on for about five months I suppose. Formation flying, instrument flying, aerobatics, low flying, gunnery, night flying, you name it we did it. And em after five months it all started again with a new course and eh there was occasionally the odd diversion. RAF Lakenheath eh was only five miles from Feltwell. I once, I remember when the eh large American eh B36s were there. I had the chance to low down, low run down the runway out of a GCA approach and eh and have a really good look at them really.
DM. Did you have any frightening moments with your students, did they ever put the wind up you?
JC. I suppose one or two things but you never really thought anything of it really, yes. With a student you had to let them correct their mistakes if they possibly could. It’s no good grabbing it and doing, sometimes if they were having a job getting out of the spin or something like that you had to stick it as long as you could, telling them or encouraging them to get out of the, but you had to watch it like a hawk. It was really interesting I really enjoyed that, yeah. I used to take my wife sometimes in the Harvard she was, she was in the WAAF of course. In formation flying she used to sometimes come along in. in the back, yeah. I did, what? about eleven hundred hours in the couple of years I was at Feltwell. Em eight hundred and eighty of them amazing same figure as the earlier one isn’t it, but it is right, eight hundred and eighty of instructional hours and I was upgraded to an A2 Category. Towards the end of my time there I didn’t have eh so many students of my own, I often had to do a lot of check rides on them. Often we were washing them out and I didn’t like having to do that very much. You know it, it’s I know it sounds daft but it is a bit upsetting in a way to, to see these lads suddenly to be told they are scrubbed. Anyway in August nineteen fifty three I was posted to eh Number 6 FTS eh at Tern Hill in Shropshire to start the very first course on the, the eh Piston Provost which was of course our new side by side trainer. Eh, before collecting our new aeroplanes from the Percival Factory at Luton which was a grass airfield in those days. I spent the first month on the Harvard helping to acclimatise newly graduated Pilots from Canada which is the English way of operating in particular coping with our weather. I should have heeded my own words because one day four of us were taken by Harvard to Luton to collect our brand new Provosts. We were all quite experienced, there was quite a bit of flying between us. A cold front was coming down the Country which we had to fly through going back to Tern Hill. All four aircraft were non radio, ‘cause they didn’t have the right crystals but we all wanted to get back so we set off in a loose gaggle and then we the rain and boy oh boy was it heavy. Everything sort of disappeared, the ground, the other aeroplanes you know. Nobody could talk to us, we were non radio and so I found the A5 I think it was, it may have been the A6 below me showing up, quite low really. I stuck over the road, at least there were no tall masts or whatever over the middle of the road and about, I don’t know, twenty minutes later we flew out of the, out of the rain and you could see for thousands of miles. A beautiful, I looked round for the other guys and we jiggle around one or two sort of in different positions from what we had been in. Anyway we all, all got back to Tern Hill and when we got on the ground we all looked at each other and thought “silly beggars,” you know. But there was nothing, all married you know and it was one of those silly things I thought “fools really” but em, but em. There used to be an article in the Aeroplane called I learned about flying from that and eh. It may have been in Flight magazine I can’t remember and that episode would have been my contribution really. Anyway doing my time at Tern Hill I managed to get a month at 12 FTS Weston [unreadable] to fly the Meteor for about fourteen hours which was quite nice and eh going in that up to about sort of forty thousand feet and that was quite a different world really, it was great fun. Then em I volunteered for something, they wanted a Flight Commander at 61 Group Con Flight at Kenley. You had to be a Flight Lieutenant, an A2 Instructor, a front rating examiner and I filled the bill on all three counts and there was I only got about six months left before joining the RAF, before leaving the RAF. I applied and was accepted. The Flight had three Ansons two Oxfords, three Austers, six Chipmunks and the Anson 12s, mainly for flying ATC Cadets around and the Anson 19 was for the AOC to be ferried around in. The Austers were for instrument checks on young Army Officers for the fairly new Army Air Corps in these days of course.The Chipmunks were for the use of mainly Senior Officers at Air Ministry to keep their currency to do Instrument Ratings with me. I was able to fly all over the country including one trip to Balne near Cologne in Germany in the Anson. My first instrument rating test technically was on Air Vice Marshall Mclvoy he practised on the Anson for a week, did a good test and eh, not like some of the Air Ministry Bods who just want to come and have a little go. And eh But eh all things, all good things come to an end I left the RAF in nineteen fifty five to start a new career having flown roughly three thousand hours. “I’m taking a lot from this of course but cutting a lot out.” Right I became an Air Traffic Control Officer in eh nineteen fifty six with a lengthy course at the Air Training College at Hurn Airport. I served initially at Croydon and then at Black Bush and eh, well in those days all, all your ATCOs Civil Air ATCOs were all Pilots or eh Navigators and sort of working with kindred spirits which was quite nice. After a year I was posted to the Southern Air Traffic Centre on the North Side of Heathrow and after a three year gap I got airbourne again in the jump seat of a Viscount to Copenhagen and to also one in Paris. I did a Radar course at Hurn, I em also got a Cockpit flight in a DC6 from Blackbush and a chance to fly the Decca Navigator from Croydon and also on their Ambassador from Heathrow on a Decca Demo flight. I spent another twenty five years as an ATCO at eh Southern Centre at Heathrow and later at West Drayton and during that time I flew in the cockpit of many different types of airliner. Different airlines all over Europe and the Middle East visiting other Air Traffic agencies including a cockpit ride in a Trans World 747 to eh, to Long Island, New York to the Air Traffic Centre there which was nice. I also had a supersonic flight in Concorde as it was being worked by the RAF up to fifty five thousand feet and Mach 2.2 over the North Sea and down to land on the inaugural Edinburgh Shuttle, super Shuttle and I just had to pay a normal fare for that, fifty five pounds I think it was. [laugh]. Another rather special flight in nineteen seventy seven I was in a Sandringham Flying Boat from Calshot and the Captain of that with reputed forty thousand flying hours, was named Blair, he was the husband em of the film actress Maureen O’Hara. He was later killed in one of his own aeroplanes, a Goose crash landed in the sea and had an engine failure. I can’t remember when it was, but all of the passengers survived that and he was killed yeah a bit unfortunate. But anyway in nineteen sixty two when the trial of the air experience flights were performed by the RAF I applied to join but it was far too late because most of the Auxiliary Air Force guys had switched over when that was closed down. 6 AEF at White Waltham had a waiting list of fifty odd people and I was told that my only real chance to fly was as supernumary pilot if I was commissioned in the RAF VR Training Branch. So I joined the local Air Training Corp at Camberley as a Civilian Instructor and after about two years a vacancy arose and I was commissioned as a Flying Officer in the eh the VR Training Branch. That was amusing I had to be interviewed by the eh girl out of the Camberley Council to see if I was a suitable chap to be commissioned in the VR having been commissioned, so I thought that was rather amusing having been commissioned. Anyway em the day after my commission came through In fact the next day I was knocking on the door of 6 AEF COs Office again and I was accepted and began flying in a Chipmunk usually two hour sorties with four cadets and I had the best of both worlds of course, a job I liked and eh being able to fly the cadets at weekends and CCF cadets on weekdays more or less. Little did I know, did I put that I would be flying them around till nineteen eighty nine, nineteen eighty nine. I usually did an Eastern and Summer Camp at various RAF Stations and often managed to get my hands on various other types usually jets and some helicopters. My very first supersonic flight before Concord was in a two seat Hunter T7 and at Brawdy one of my ex students from Feltwell was CO of the Hawk Squadron so that was really good for me. 6 AEF moved to Abingdon in September nineteen seventy three, I did a Summer Camp at Odiham in the summer of nineteen seventy four and running it was an old chum of mine from my course at Miami Oklahoma he was a Squadron Leader then he was the boss of No 2 AEF at Hamble and he suggested I would move, I would like to move there em, despite it being a much longer journey I, I did so after another camp at West Raynham where, where incidentally I flew in a Canberra in a low level exercise over the North Sea, we just missed eh a Luftwaffe Phantom [laugh] after about a fortnight at Hamble I was made deputy Flight Commander which meant I was paid as a Flight Lieutenant which was good em. We used to go and fly the cadets at Herne, Goodwood, Lea on Sollent, Benbridge and Sandown on the Isle of Wight and it was just nice. Er one day just after take off at Shoreham the engine blew up just as I was crossing the beach at eight hundred feet. I done the fastest one hundred and eighty turn in history and managed to force land at Shoreham at eh, at eh Shoreham and one of the pots had eh blown completely. In early December nineteen eighty the AEF moved to Hurn so it was now a hundred and sixty mile round trip from home eh but eh that was really good and I stayed at Hurn well until I, I finished with the RAF. I eh most of my Summer Camps over the years were at Coltishall close to where I used to live in Aylesham. On two or three occasions young Squadron Pilots came up to me at various places saying “ are you John Cooper? I remember you, I flew with you when I was a cadet” which was quite nice to be remembered like that, yeah. And eh, eh I remember one day em at St Mawgan in Cornwall, I used to camp in nineteen eighty five, I happened to mention on the third trip of the four I was going t do, I would be flying my five thousandth cadet and eh after landing on the third trip I was told by AirTraffic to taxi in and switch of because the Station Commander wanted to see me. I thought “goodness what have I been up to” Anyway the Airman who marshalled me in was wearing huge, six foot five rubber gloves, you remember Kenny Everett the kind he used to wear, marshalling me in wearing those and I thought “that is a bit odd” As I climbed out of the aeroplane, the Chipmunk, the Group Captain and a few others walked over smiling with a tray and a bottle of champagne and some glasses to celebrate the occasion [laugh]. I was sorry I could not fly again that day because of the drinking and eh in nineteen eighty six we done a Summer Camp with the AEF at Wildenrath in Germany, I bumped into eh this friend of mine Norman Geery who I trained with in America who had been this Flight Commander and he was, he was, he had retired from the AEF he was working as a Staff Officer, so eh. I, I flew over seven thousand cadets so eh in one hundred and ten different Chipmunks you know, that’s quite a lot really isn’t it? And I, I did about three thousand seven hundred hours in the Chipmunk and not too bad for a eh spare time. The one with my name stencilled on the side, eh WK630 I did one hundred and fifty hours in that one aeroplane and it is based up a little airfield in Norfolk again about five or six miles from where I used to live. I’ve met, I’ve met the owner in fact I met them a couple of months ago as well or the new owners, Shuttleworth when they had the seventieth anniversary of the Chipmunk. So eh who knows I might get a ride in that. I had visited my old Flying School in Miami, Oklahoma in nineteen eighty two we had a reunion there, the first one which was quite nice and eh we also had on in ninety seven, nineteen eighty seven and Frances came to me to that one so that was eh. I met my old Instructor on that one and he was living in Tulsa in Oklahoma. And eh so Frances and I went to see him and he said I was the first of his he had ever met since, since the end of the war yeah, so he was quite an old boy by then but that was very nice, yeah. I’ve kept my flying license going for quite a long time now after that, I had a share in a Cessna 172 at Black Bush and used to take the family occasionally and this that and the other and eh, I done what, six thousand nine hundred hours roughly in all sorts of different what about forty five different types but eh it’s slowed down now. My license has expired now but I had a real of on eh, on the I don’t know, this might be of interest, on the twenty ninth of June two thousand and three I was with a friend of mine in his Chipmunk on a three day rally organised by the Moth Club. There was a Tiger Moth taking part and I met the owner, told him his very same one that I had first flown at Grayingham School on the 14th of April nineteen forty four. He gave me a flight in his aeroplane on the 14th of April two thousand and four exactly sixty years to the very day that I first flew it. Now if you go forward ten years and again on the 14th of April two thousand fourteen exactly seventy days to the very day I first flew it, I flew it again. That’s a bit unusual isn’t it? Yeah, yeah and he said, he said well I haven’t booked in for the next ten, we will start with five[laugh] I shall be a bit creaky by then, yeah. So really that’s my, my.
DM. When did you, going right back to the beginning, why did you decide to join the Air Force as opposed to going into another branch of the Forces?
JC. Never entered my head, never entered my head well you see I didn’t really mention this, when the eh Air Training Corps started in nineteen forty one a flight of it was formed in Aylesham near where I lived and the CO was the local Headmaster and eh I was one of the founder members and eh I used to keep a log of all the aeroplanes I seen flying over the top of it and eh. I’ve got here there were Spitfires, Hurricanes, Aerocobras, Typhoons there were twin engined Whirlwinds which were quite rare and the Bombers going out in the darkness, Wellingtons, Hampdens and Whitleys at that stage and the Blenheims at Alton airfield about three miles away. When we, when we got our uniforms you see, I, I was made the first NCO of the Flight with the lofty rank of Corporal and eh one, one Sunday I cycled to Alton Airfield two miles away with a friend of mine also in the ATC, somehow we talked ourselves, talked ourselves into a flight, into a flight in a Lockheed Hudson for thirty five minutes you see. That was the first of March nineteen forty two. And from there on nothing else seemed to matter, every Sunday practically I used to cycle to various airfields to cadge flights. On May forty two on the third, tenth, seventeenth and thirty first I had flights in the Bostons’ of 88 Squadron at Athellridge, Athellridge after the war became home to the Mathews Turkey Organisation [Laugh] em. I flew mostly in the rear gun position in the Boston. One day I was in the nose doing about two hundred and sixty knots across the airfield about fifty feet, really exciting. So it went on like that until nineteen forty two in Bostons in June, July, August I flew in them. I had a flight in a Beaufighter at Alton and I had to stand by a door just behind the Pilot.Summer camp at Coltishall an Oxford, a Domini and a real one off the gun turret of a Boulton Paul Defiant which eh that was a really good one. Eh, the Bostons disappeared from Athellridge So I turned my attention to Matlass a little grass airfield, satellite of Coltishall about seven miles from Aylesham, in those days security seemed almost non existent, just rolled up in our uniforms to go flying. I did practically every weekend in Miles Magisters to do aerobatics and in a Hawk [unreadable] to do drogue towing for Spitfires mostly also in Lysanders also towing for Spitfires as things were. Whirlwinds, the Beaufighter and then the Bostons turned up again at Alton two miles from home. It was game on again and eh when they disappeared 21 Squadron Venturas turned up and eh they were. Incidentally when the Bostons were there I was on the Airfield on the day of Operation Oyster that was the famous raid on eh on the Phillips works at Eindhoven. I was standing on the airfield watching the Wingco flying there with Pele Fry coming in, belly land his Boston on the grass, great holes in it and that eh. And then when the em, oh, by now it was obvious the war had been going on for some time, I went to the recruiting centre in Norwich and put my name down for Aircrew which I think I mentioned at the beginning of this thing. I was asked if I would like to join as a Wop or Airgunner then I could get into the aeroplane, Air Force more quickly and then I could remuster. But I said no “I really want to be a Pilot” so that was em, that was em nine months deferred service, started before I was actually called up. In the meantime I still went, used to go flying in a Mitchell in February, March at Folsham Airfield and I also flew in a Lancaster MK 11 there the one with the radial engines which was a bit different. Eh and when the Venturas’ turned up at 21 at eh Alton I flew with them practically every Sunday in nineteen forty three, formation flying, fighter afill, practise bombing. So based at quite a famous building Brickley Hall it was a National Trust place, that was where the, that was where the Officers, Officers Mess there it was really quite grand for them, but the grounds are still open. My Mother often used to walk to Brickley it was only a mile and a half from home. One Sunday she say a Ventura go whizzing across the lake and eh she said, I remember her saying “I could read the letters on the side” I said “ what were they” She said “I can’t remember I think they were such and such” I said “they were because I was in it” [laugh] Yes I had one, not near, I wasn’t in it be eh 21 Squadron had one or two Mitchells for conversion purposes, I had a flight with the Flight Commander doing a liaison thing with the Home Guard. I was going to fly in another one all day, walking out and the same Flight Commander changed his mind saying as a new crew I could go on a later trip. And I am jolly glad he did say that because, I watched the aeroplane taxi out and take of but it was only just airborne and went through the far hedge and hit a Ventura on the other side on dispersal and never got above a hundred feet and about a mile away it crashed and there was only one survivor from that. So I am very glad he, he stopped me going on that. So my long deferred service ended on the eight of November nineteen forty three when I was called up and went to Lords Cricket Ground with thousands of others and eh. I am saying all this part [laugh] Yeah [pause] I was at ACRC for longer than the usual months indoctrination to get in the RAF. Of course in the rush to get down the stairs one day from the top of a block of flats we were in in St Johns Wood I was knocked over and got Concussion and woke up in the Sick Quarters of Abbey Lodge in Regents Park. I was recoursed but eventually went to eventually went to No 6 ITW in Aberystwyth in, in nineteen forty four. Em the usual pretty tough course because of terrible weather the eh winter time we were pretty soaked all the time. There was one soaking I really hated, one day we marched up the hill to the University swimming baths where we were dressed in full RAF flying kit, including boots, helmet, may west, parachute had to climb up to the top board and eh jump in the water and eh somehow clamber into a dinghy yeah. But I didn’t like that.
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ACooperJ160727
PCooperJ1602
Title
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Interview with John Cooper
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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01:01:45 audio recording
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Pending review
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Creator
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David Meanwell
Date
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2016-07-27
Description
An account of the resource
Mr Cooper joined the Royal Air Force in October 1943 and trained in the United States. The war in Europe was over by the time he returned to England. He remained in the Royal Air Force until he retired as a Flight Commander and became an Air Traffic Control Officer.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Canada
United States
England--Lincolnshire
Atlantic Ocean
Atlantic Ocean--Rockall Bank
Temporal Coverage
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1943
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Hugh Donnelly
101 Squadron
3 BFTS
aircrew
British Flying Training School Program
Cornell
Harvard
Lancaster
Lincoln
Meteor
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Feltwell
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Methwold
training
Wellington
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2052/33662/PSouterKP2132.1.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2052/33662/ASouterKP210710.1.mp3
504241e825931f427344c812d2b631c3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Souter, Kenneth Place
K P Souter
Date
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2021-07-10
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Souter, KP
Description
An account of the resource
30 items. An oral history interview with Kenneth Souter (b. 1919, 129001 Royal Air Force), his log books and photographs. He flew operations as a fighter pilot with 73 Squadron in North Africa and as a test pilot. After the war he flew Lancasters during the filming of The Dam Busters film in 1954.
The collection was catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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TS: For coffee. Ok.
[recording paused]
DM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Meanwell and the interviewee is Ken Souter. Ken’s son Tony Souter is also present and the interview is taking place at Mr Souter’s home in Morden in Surrey on the 10th of July 2021. Ok. Ken, maybe you could start off by saying a bit about what you can remember about where you were born and growing up and your childhood.
KS: When I was born?
DM: Yeah.
KS: Oh. Well, that must have been 1918 I think, and I was living, my parents were living in Amberley Street. That’s in, well not the rough end but you know not very much up and up in Sunderland. Eventually moved to a better house, and still in Sunderland, but by Seaburn was the seaside part of the operation. From there I went to school there at the Argyle House, I don’t think. I can’t remember the name of the school. It’ll come to me maybe.
DM: Yeah. Don’t worry.
KS: Something. But it was just a private school, and I stayed there until I was about probably fifteen, sixteen, and we moved to various houses. Moved from one house to another, but still in Sunderland and my father had a, well it was a big company for buying and selling props. What are called props. The props were —
TS: He was importing timber wasn’t he from Finland to be used as pit props in the mines?
KS: Pardon?
TS: He was importing timber from Finland and Norway.
KS: Correct. Yeah.
TS: To be used as pit props for the, for the coal mines in the area.
KS: For the what?
TS: The coal mines.
KS: Correct.
TS: Yeah. Yeah.
KS: That’s right. Yeah.
TS: So, he had, he had a couple, I think he ended up buying a couple of ships and whatnot.
KS: I think to cut it short we, did we move to, the family moved to Spain?
TS: No. That was much, much later. You moved to Chester. Chester le Street, Chester le Street, which is just down the road from Sunderland.
KS: Oh yeah. Yeah. And then I remember, I remember —
TS: Yeah.
KS: Not much about it.
TS: No. And then you, you went. You joined up. You went to the Air Flying School didn’t you at, were you, actually you were involved in boxing for a little while, weren’t you? You joined a boxing club.
KS: Yeah. That’s right.
TS: Because we had a picture of you.
KS: What? In the, in the, my father’s company where these pit props were imported. They’d come by ship.
TS: Yeah.
KS: And then what they do the pit, they called it the yard which stores all the timber. And then the boxers used to come and train there.
DM: Right.
KS: Yes. Because it’s hard work, you know. You get a lump of props and they put them on their shoulder and stack them up. And I worked with them for exercise, because a lot of the boxers came just for exercise. And from there I can’t really remember very much. I can’t remember very much.
TS: But—
DM: Did you, after you finished education did you go straight into the Air Force or did you do something else first?
KS: I couldn’t say.
TS: I think you worked for your dad for a while, didn’t you? You worked in your dad’s company for a little bit.
KS: Yeah. Not very much.
TS: Right.
KS: Perhaps a year.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Something like that.
TS: Yeah. My memory is that you ended up in Cambridge at the, at the Flying School for aspiring pilots. Is that, would that be correct?
KS: Yeah.
TS: Yeah.
DM: What, what, can you remember why you decided to learn to fly? What prompted you?
KS: I’ve no idea. I was a —
DM: Just a young man’s fancy, I expect.
KS: Yes. It was a toss-up between that and the, and the college for drawing, for art because I was keen on drawing then. And, so I went to work for my father which is quite, well it’s difficult in a way because as the boss’s son I don’t, I hadn’t been naughty with him and all this sort of stuff, you know. You can imagine it. And I just remember then going to South Africa.
TS: No. That was, that’s a long time later.
KS: Was it?
TS: Yeah. A lot happened before you went to South Africa. The Second World War for a start.
KS: Oh.
TS: No. The chronology is much later but maybe David might be interested in what happened when you went to flying school at Cambridge. Ken’s brother was, his older brother joined the Army and became a captain eventually during the war but Ken went off to Cambridge to, to train as a pilot.
DM: Do you have any memories of Cambridge and learning to fly?
KS: Yes. A little bit. Not very much. It’s all boring stuff with biplanes.
DM: Yes. Of course. Yes. Because this would have been in the 1930s, wouldn’t it?
KS: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
TS: I have your first, first flight here, in a, air experience flight on the July the 5th in 1939.
KS: Oh really?
TS: And you were in a de Havilland 82 which is probably a Tiger Moth I should think, isn’t it?
KS: Pardon?
TS: In a de Havilland 82, which might well be a Tiger Moth.
KS: A Tiger Moth. Yeah.
TS: Yeah. Yeah. So that’s when you started your training.
KS: Started what?
TS: That’s when you started your training on the Tiger Moth.
KS: Yes.
TS: And then you went solo. You went solo. It’s here somewhere. First solo in June the 4th in 1940. That was your first solo.
KS: Oh. My solo. Yeah.
TS: Ok.
DM: So, you learned to fly. You got your pilot’s licence. You were in the RAF. Can you remember where you were posted first of all? What, or what job you did? You know, what, were you, did you go into Bomber Command then or was that later?
KS: No. No. It was later. Once you qualified on Tiger Moths and Harts you remember Hart.
DM: Yeah.
KS: Harts. That was the Tiger Moth. Hart. And then the aeroplane you’re going to fly. I forget what it was. It’s just an upbeat from the Tiger Moth. I don’t know what it was.
TS: Yeah. You were on Harts.
KS: Harts.
TS: Yeah. Your first solo on a Hart was in July 31st in 1940.
KS: Yeah. I joined the Air Force. It was around about that time, I think. I did training. Funnily enough down here, across the road there was my initial training where at the time there were not all that many pilots around so you could apply to go as a pilot, or not. I’m wrong. I said that wrong. You could apply to, at school you could apply to go into various things and I applied to [pause] I forget what it was now. I can’t remember.
TS: So, the Cambridge flying was like a, like a Cadet Corps presumably.
KS: That was training.
TS: Like a training Squadron.
KS: Yeah.
TS: Yeah. And looking at your logbooks here when you went on to the Hart —
KS: Yes.
TS: That was when you had started serious fighter pilot training and they taught you aerobatics, and combat flying and all that sort of stuff on the Hart.
KS: That’s correct.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
DM: So, at some time, you must then have been trained to fly multiple engine aircraft because you ended up flying multiple engine aircraft so you would have.
KS: Sorry. I’m not with you.
DM: Well, you were flying single engine aircraft. Learning aerobatics and all that.
KS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DM: And then ultimately you ended up flying aircraft with four engines. So, you would have had some additional training.
KS: Yes.
DM: Before that happened.
KS: Correct. Yeah.
DM: But that wasn’t at Cambridge, or was it?
TS: If I could help you out here. It’s, there was a long gap between him flying fighters and bombers.
DM: Right.
TS: The fighter pilot stuff was all during the Second World War, and you can come on to where he was —
DM: Yes.
TS: Later on.
DM: So, in, in the Second World War when you’d completed your training what, what did you get? What were you flying then? What were you posted to fly?
KS: The heaviest one I flew I think was a Hart. A Hart. It’s a sort of forerunner of the Spitfire I think really. It was very difficult. It was difficult to fly. Yeah. So that’s, and then, I was on the BNF.
TS: Yeah. You went on to, I mean Harts and I think the Audax, which I think were similar aircraft. And from the Hart you went on to, to fly Hurricanes.
KS: Oh. Was it?
TS: Yeah.
KS: Oh.
KS: So, in October 1940 you were on, converted on to Harvards, training aircraft.
KS: Oh.
KS: And then from Harvards you went. Your first flight was on a Hurricane was on October the 20th 1940. So, you were training on Hurricanes for quite a while before you got posted.
KS: The forerunner to a Hurricane.
TS: No. No. You were on Hurricanes in, in October 1940.
DM: And where was that?
TS: Just having a look [pause] 43 Squadron.
KS: 43 Squadron.
TS: Yeah. Does that ring a bell?
KS: Oh yes. Yes.
TS: So, I think, I think all is, at some point he was posted to 43 Squadron with Hurricanes and completed his training on those.
KS: Yeah. 43 Squadron. You’ve got to remember there weren’t all that many aeroplanes available.
TS: No.
KS: And the people like the guy that [pause] I don’t know. A lot of famous people, I can’t remember who they were.
TS: Well, in the meantime there was the Battle of Britain, of course.
KS: That’s right. Yes.
TS: Which you missed out on.
KS: Yeah. I was stationed down at, after —
TS: There you go.
[pause]
KS: I was stationed at the, on the, all the pilots of the Battle of Britain were based around London.
TS: Yeah.
KS: And I was on, I was flying there but I wasn’t, I wasn’t —
TS: You weren’t part of the Battle of Britain because you were still training.
KS: No.
TS: Yeah. Ok. So, I’ve got you flying with 43 Squadron until January the 9th in 1941, when your Squadron was shipped out to North Africa. Do you remember that?
KS: No.
TS: Yeah. You do. You’ve told me often about it.
KS: Eh?
TS: You’ve told me a lot about it in the past so —
KS: Have I? [laughs]
TS: Yeah. You were put on an aircraft carrier.
KS: Yeah.
TS: Yeah. You remember that.
KS: Just. Yeah.
TS: So, tell us about that.
KS: Well, I got a lot of my grey hairs there on this aircraft carrier. It was terrifying [laughs] because you go balling down the runway and the end of ship approaches very quickly, and you sort of quickly visualise going under the water [laughs] It’s terrifying.
TS: So, I’ve got your logbook here. You ferried your Hurricane down to Tangmere.
KS: Tangmere. Yes.
TS: Yeah.
KS: That was a big Battle of Britain station.
TS: And then in, as I say in January 1941 your Hurricanes were put on board HMS Furious.
KS: Furious. Yeah.
TS: On the way to North Africa.
KS: Yeah. David, do you want all this small talk?
DM: Oh yes. That’s fine.
KS: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. It’s all interesting stuff.
TS: Right. So, so, you were bundling along in the aircraft carrier. At some point —
KS: Yeah.
TS: Some guys flew off to Malta along with your best mate who went to Malta and you went a little further and flew off to Africa.
KS: Yes.
TS: And through a very circuitous rate ended up in the, in the northern desert.
KS: Yeah.
TS: Yeah. Led by a, it says, your logbook says you were led by a Blenheim. So, at some point a Blenheim must have picked the Squadron up, and led you on this circuitous route through, through Nigeria and parts of Africa.
KS: We were led because a lot of the part was no, no maps.
TS: Yeah.
KS: So, you followed the Blenheim. That’s why they were there.
TS: And hoping that they didn’t get lost.
KS: Yeah.
TS: The Blenheim presumably had a navigator on board.
KS: Yeah.
TS: With a map.
KS: Correct. Yeah.
TS: Ok.
DM: Do you have any memories of your time in the desert?
KS: Pardon?
DM: Do you have any memories of your time in the desert?
KS: Well, yeah. There’s not much to write about. Sand and more sand and more sand, and then it gets into the trees. Yeah. I remember it very well. Lived in tents. [unclear] I just continued flying training and we, I think we, yeah, I don’t know how long I flew in the desert. About six months, I think. Or a year.
TS: Yeah. You joined 73 Squadron in the desert.
KS: Oh. Did I?
TS: Yeah. Yeah [pause] but you also did a lot of test flying didn’t you of repaired aircraft that you were flying quite a bit? The photographs that we have from that time shows you flying a number of different types of aircraft that had been repaired.
KS: I think I must have flown into Africa like we just discussed and eventually went back to England.
TS: Well, that was much later on so we’re going to cover the time in the desert now.
KS: Well, there’s not much to tell you really.
TS: Right. It was just routine operational stuff in the desert.
KS: Yes.
TS: Patrols and —
KS: That’s right.
DM: Yeah. Looking at the logbook it’s —
KS: Yeah.
DM: It’s patrols and convoy patrols and —
KS: Yes. Routine stuff.
DM: Patrol over enemy prison camp. I assume that was a prison camp where —
KS: Yeah.
DM: Your enemies were rather than enemy. And I see you flew to Tobruk.
KS: Tobruk.
DM: Yeah. So, all the sort of and Sidi Barrani, and I see you’ve got, you’ve written down here in your logbook which was in April 1941, “Chased some JU87s but too late.”
KS: What’s it say?
TS: Chased, “Chased some JU87s.”
KS: Oh yeah.
TS: But too late.
KS: Oh [laughs] really.
DM: So obviously they were too far in front of you. And then you say on the next day you got hit by Jerry ack ack.
KS: Oh, was I?
DM: You had quite an eventful time really. And then there was a gentleman. You said Bill Wills was killed by ground strafing.
KS: Yes.
DM: Was he —
KS: Where was he killed?
DM: While ground, while ground strafing. So, he obviously crashed, or was shot down, I imagine.
KS: What was his name?
DM: Bill Wills.
KS: Oh yes. I remember him very well. He was a very nice guy. Was he shot down?
DM: Yes. And killed it says.
KS: Oh.
DM: Yes.
KS: Well, there was a period of [unclear] weather.
DM: Yeah. And then I don’t know if you remember this at the end of April you went sick with acute tonsilitis.
KS: Got what?
DM: Acute tonsilitis.
KS: Tonsilitis.
DM: Yes. Probably the dry air or something I expect and all that sand.
KS: Really?
TS: Yeah. He had a big issue which dogged him right through his flying career of ear infection which probably was about that time and he ended up in Cairo Hospital and was off flying for quite a while. And, and that eventually when he, when he returned to civil flying much, much, much later that eventually did him and he had to give up his licence because of his ear problem. What’s interesting, I don’t know whether, whether Ken will be able to remind you of he had a big accident with his Hurricane trying to take off in a sand storm. Do you remember that?
KS: What was that?
TS: You had a big accident in your, in your Hurricane while trying to take off in a sandstorm and you hit a truck.
KS: Oh.
TS: And the story goes.
DM: Oh yes. It’s in here. That was on the, that was an eventful month, April. That’s was 8th of April in 1941, “Wiped off Hurricane taking off in sandstorm.”
KS: Ah yeah. I remember.
TS: The back story, do you want to hear the back story of that?
DM: Yeah.
TS: If you remember something, just cut me off and butt in but the story you told me a while ago —
KS: Couldn’t be reliable.
TS: Was that you were, one of your pilots had landed out in the desert and you and another pilot had seen where he was and you were going back to pick him up. And there was some urgency to get back there and hence you were committed to taking off in this sand storm which was in hindsight probably not a good idea. But the idea was to go and rescue this other pilot, and apparently that used to happen quite a bit. Pilots used to land out and they’d climb in another, sit on the other pilot’s knee as they flew back. So, I think that’s, if I remember rightly that’s what you were doing at the time. And there are some interesting pictures of what you did to the Hurricane. And the clock that I have of yours came from your crashed Hurricane if you remember.
KS: Yeah.
DM: That would be one of the famous Smith’s clocks, would it?
TS: Yeah.
DM: Yeah.
TS: I’ve not got a picture of it here but I’ve got it at home. Yeah. It was one of a number of accidents actually [laughs] he had out there because he was, he was test flying repaired aircraft and there are pictures in his albums of him landing with a trail of smoke out of the engines and engines catching fire and all sorts of things.
DM: Yeah. And I see in here that you started to fly other aircraft. Particularly when you were posted to the Met flight in Khartoum. That’s when you started to fly Lysanders. A Valencia on one occasion.
KS: Oh really? A Valencia.
DM: And Blenheims as well.
KS: Oh God.
DM: So, you were starting to get some practice on different aircraft then.
KS: I don’t remember much of that. Where was that? In Africa?
DM: That was in Africa. That was still, that was in May 1941.
KS: ’41.
DM: Yeah.
KS: Oh right.
DM: Yeah. You had a few hours on all, on all of those. And then that continued on into June. You sort of, I guess this is when you were starting to test aircraft because in, in June you flew Hurricane, Blenheim, Valencia, Tomahawk, Blenheims again, and then back to the Hurricanes again. So, you know, you were, you were flying a multitude of aircraft. Mainly the Hurricane.
KS: Yes.
DM: Mainly.
KS: It was. Yeah. It was mainly Hurricane.
DM: So, you, how do you remember when you came home from Africa or did you go somewhere else first?
KS: No. I came straight back to the UK. I can’t remember when it was.
TS: You flew to Portugal, I think. In a Sunderland.
KS: Oh, that would be taking me home.
TS: Yeah. This is what we’re talking about.
KS: Oh yes.
TS: I think after your ear infection I think you were taken off flying duties and —
KS: Yeah.
TS: Is that right?
KS: Probably something to do with that.
TS: Is that right. Yeah. There are pictures of you in Cairo Hospital with lots of nurses around.
KS: Oh yeah [laughs]
TS: And the odd, according to your photo album, the odd floozy here and there.
KS: Was what?
TS: The odd floozy. Which is a term we don’t hear nowadays.
DM: Yeah, because you were still flying in December 1941 in the desert. You were, you were sort of doing a lot of test flying on Hardys, Kittyhawks, Tomahawks which you seemed to fly in Tomahawks quite a lot.
KS: Yes. It was at one time. I can’t remember why.
DM: Test flights I think it says.
KS: That would make sense to me.
DM: Yeah. Yeah. On one occasion in a Kittyhawk it says you overshot into bushes.
KS: Oh no. No. Really?
DM: It doesn’t sound like you, does it? No. I can’t believe that.
TS: I’m surprised they had bushes in the desert actually.
DM: Well, yeah. Well, I think —
TS: There can’t have been many.
DM: I don’t know where we are now. We’re obviously still out there somewhere.
KS: Yeah. There are. Little clumps.
TS: Yeah. Little, little shrubs aren’t they?
KS: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: It mentions Wadi Halfa.
KS: Wadi Halfa, yeah. I remember that.
DM: And it says you flew something called a Lodestar as well.
KS: A lodestar.
DM: Yeah. L O D E S T A R.
KS: I don’t remember that.
TS: An American transport plane, I think.
DM: Oh right.
KS: Possibly.
DM: Obviously, you must, I think, I mean there’s a gap. So, you were continually flying in the desert up until February 1942.
KS: Yes.
DM: And then you don’t fly again until May. So that may well I presume have been when you were in hospital probably, do you think?
KS: It’s possible.
DM: 1942.
TS: I think.
DM: Yeah.
KS: I probably went home to the UK.
DM: You were, well once you started again you were still. No. You were still [Wadi Natrun] or something. So you —
KS: Wadi Halfa.
DM: Wadi Halfa. Yes. You were, you were, after your, your enforced break you were still out there in June 1942. So, you were away from home for a long time.
KS: Yeah. I spent quite a bit of time in the desert.
DM: Yes.
TS: Look, that’s Ken in 1942.
DM: He looks like a film star.
TS: Doesn’t he. Yeah. Do you recognise him?
KS: No.
TS: No. Ok.
[Needs to be excused. Recording paused]
DM: Ok. So eventually you came back to the UK.
KS: Yes.
DM: And according to your logbook the first part of the journey was in a Sunderland. In a Flying Boat.
KS: Yes. That was when we went to [pause] where’s that holiday resort?
DM: Lisbon No. No.
KS: Yeah. There. Around there.
DM: Yeah. And then you sort of, you came home. You came home from there. So it says here that you flew from Cairo to Khartoum.
KS: Yeah.
DM: Then from Khartoum to Lagos.
KS: Oh, Lagos. In the desert.
DM: Yeah. Then to Bathurst which I always thought was in Australia, but there’s obviously another one somewhere. And then from Bathurst to Lisbon. Then from Lisbon to Foynes in Ireland.
KS: To where?
DM: Foynes in Ireland. I expect it was a refuelling stop.
KS: Sounds —
DM: And then, then to Poole. I imagine the one in Dorset where all the rich people live.
KS: [laughs] I don’t remember much about that.
DM: So, I assume when you came back you must have had some leave.
KS: Yeah.
DM: And where, were your parents, where, would they still be living up in the north east then?
TS: I think so because his dad would be a Reserved Occupation wouldn’t it, for the —
KS: Yes.
TS: For the coal mines.
DM: Yeah, and he might have been a bit old anyway then.
KS: Yes. Up north. Up north. Sunderland.
DM: Yes.
KS: That’s right. Yeah.
DM: So then after —
KS: I went to Usworth.
DM: Right.
KS: There. Where is that near? Usworth. Have you heard of it? Usworth.
DM: I was waiting for you to tell me where it was near because —
KS: Eh?
DM: I’ve heard of it but I’ve no idea where it is.
KS: That’s, well, it’s northeast. Newcastle. That way.
DM: Right. Yeah. You don’t sound like a Geordie, you see.
KS: No. But there was [laughs] I don’t, I don’t suppose I was home long enough to get the accent.
DM: No. That’s probably true. That’s probably true. So, after that you started, I think you did some test flights and reconnaissance flights and some photography flights as well in a, in a Prefect which I always thought was a car but obviously there was —
KS: A what?
DM: Was there an aircraft called a Prefect. Do you remember that?
KS: Yeah. I’ve heard of that. I can’t remember what it looked like. A Prefect.
TS: If you look at the front there’s some pictures of the planes he flew on. I don’t know whether it’s there.
DM: What have we got? Let’s have a look.
[recording paused]
DM: So, you come back home. Had your leave and then you start sort of like a new chapter in your Royal Air Force career, and I see that one of the things you were doing was target towing.
KS: Oh yes.
DM: Was that in Scotland?
KS: Yeah. I think so. Yeah.
DM: Did you have any sticky moments with people hitting the aircraft or anything like that?
KS: I don’t think so. No. No. I don’t [laughs] There might have been. I can’t remember having one.
KS: And I imagine that was mainly low-level stuff.
KS: No. No. Not necessarily. I think. No. It was just normal flight, you know. Perhaps maybe up to ten thousand feet. Something like that.
DM: Right. And then you did a lot of, you have to help me out here one of you, CCG duties. Is it coast guard or something do you think?
KS: CCG?
DM: Yeah. It was in a Martinet.
KS: CCG. Was it a flying thing?
DM: Yeah. It says that the duty was CCG.
TS: It would be Coast Guard, wouldn’t it?
DM: I think it must have been. Yeah.
TS: Yeah. Yeah.
KS: I don’t know what it, what it stands for.
DM: It must have been Coast Guard work I would imagine.
TS: So, it was up near Scapa, well the Orkneys would have been Scapa Flow, isn’t it? Up in that direction?
DM: And then there’s a lot where you’re doing, obviously I assume this is a route. Some Y Line, Z Line, X Line. Things like that.
KS: What?
DM: Y line, Z Line, X Line. I don’t know what they would have been. Whether they were patrols perhaps. They were all about an hour, an hour and a half long.
KS: What did it say?
DM: So, for example, “July the 13th 1943 Martinet. Self and second pilot McGilvary. McGilvary. Y Line. 1 hour.”
TS: Was that to do with target towing do you think? Maybe it’s —
DM: It’s listed among the coast guard stuff so I don’t know.
TS: Whether that’s a patrol route or something. Or —
DM: I think it must have been.
KS: I don’t think it must have been very important.
DM: I think it’s a job for Mr Google.
TS: Yes.
DM: But it was mainly flying the Martinets, and mainly target towing. You did a lot. You seemed to have done a lot of that. Do you remember who you were providing target practice for? Was it, I suppose it was trainee fighter pilots was it? Or was it for bombers?
TS: I think a lot of it was for the Royal Navy, wasn’t it?
DM: Oh right. Well, that would make sense because it was obviously over the sea by the sound of it.
KS: I don’t know. Yeah. Maybe, yeah. Maybe target. I don’t know. Is it in Scotland?
DM: Yeah. We’re still in Scotland, I think. Yes.
KS: Yes.
TS: You had a great times in the Orkneys, didn’t you? There’s a, in your albums there’s a number of pictures of you up in the Orkneys, and you quite enjoyed it there.
KS: What?
TS: You quite enjoyed your time in the Orkneys, in Scotland. I remember you saying because in your albums there’s quite a few pictures of you up there. Usually with floozies of some description.
KS: A what?
TS: I think you had a girlfriend up in, in the Orkneys.
KS: Yeah. I had.
TS: Yeah. And a dog whose name you remembered I think when I last discussed it with you.
KS: Yes.
TS: And here’s the picture.
KS: Oh yeah. That’s the dog.
TS: Yeah. What was the name of the dog?
KS: Butch, I think.
TS: I think it was. You’re right. Yeah.
KS: I think it was Butch.
TS: Yeah. I think it was.
KS: Yeah. That was in the Orkneys.
TS: Yeah. Yeah.
KS: A nice girl.
DM: So, you were up, you were in Scotland for quite some time, and then in 1944 you were doing a lot of air tests of various Martinets and Ansons. It was basically. And something called curve of pursuit crops up from time to time which, is it some sort of navigational exercise maybe? I don’t know.
KS: What is it? What did you say?
DM: Curve of pursuit.
KS: Don’t know.
DM: No.
TS: But that would be some aerial manoeuvre wouldn’t it be? Do you think?
KS: Does it say a lot of that?
DM: There’s a fair few of them.
KS: I must remember then.
DM: So, like in a Master with pilot officer Bullen, curve of pursuit. With Sergeant Clark, curve of pursuit. Always with a different co-pilot or passenger, so it could have been a navigation exercise or something, I guess.
KS: Yeah. I think so.
[pause]
TS: Well, unless there was some sort of protocol for vectoring pilots onto enemy aircraft or something. There was some sort of protocol for that.
DM: Maybe. I don’t know where you are now when you, when you’re doing this. I imagine you’ve left the Orkneys. We’re in 1944.
KS: Yes.
DM: And then we, we sort of, you then had a, you had a couple more flights in a Hurricane in 1944, in August 1944. Local it says, so —
TS: Does it mention the Seafire in there somewhere?
[recording paused]
DM: So, I see from your logbook that in 1945 —
KS: Yes.
DM: You started flying, you were seconded I imagine to the Fleet Air Arm. To 771 Squadron.
KS: Yes. I remember that.
DM: Do you remember what you did?
KS: No.
DM: Were you testing aircraft? Was that, was that why you were there?
KS: Yes. We were testing aircraft and it was at Oxford. Oxford? The airport near London. Where was —
DM: Right.
TS: Not Duxford?
DM: Oh. Could be Duxford. Duxford?
KS: Where?
DM: Duxford.
KS: Don’t know.
DM: It’s not far from London. It’s Cambridgeshire.
KS: The name seems to ring a bell but I don’t know why.
DM: I mean you were doing all sorts of things there. Like it’s got, “Destroyer. Anti-aircraft. Winged target.” Whether they winged you or you winged them I don’t know.
KS: Oh yeah. Yeah. That was an aeroplane towing a target and the following that is an aeroplane testing out its guns if I remember rightly.
DM: Right.
TS: On the Seafire business there’s an interesting picture here in his album. It’s a drop tank. Drop tank trial on the Seafire Mark 15.
KS: What’s that?
DM: Right.
KS: Drop tank trial on the Seafire.
TS: Yeah. That was part of your NAFDU work, I think.
KD: Oh yes.
DM: Yes. Which we think stood for — NAFDU.
TS: Naval Air, Naval Air —
DM: Force.
TS: Force.
KS: Fighter Unit.
DM: Fighter.
TS: Yeah. Fighter Defence Unit.
KS: Fighter Unit, NAFDU.
DM: Right. Right.
KS: NAFDU. Yeah.
DM: Can you remember what a DBX was?
KS: Pardon?
DM: A DBX. Because you did a, you did three flights to DBX Duke of York which is obviously a ship or a land base because —
KS: No. I don’t know what that is.
DM: DBX. I don’t know what that is. Do you know how you can, this is a very unfair question but do you know how you came to be seconded to the Royal Navy? Why that happened?
[pause]
TS: It’s perhaps on the back of your test pilot work in North Africa maybe.
KS: Hmmn?
TS: Maybe on the back of your test pilot work in North Africa. I think you had a reputation.
KS: I don’t know. What was the question?
DM: How you came to be in the Royal Navy. Why they moved you across to the Royal Navy.
KS: I don’t know. I think probably it was from the Air Force. Royal Air Force that. I really don’t know.
DM: No.
KS: I don’t know.
DM: You probably, you probably volunteered in inverted commas. That’s what it was. I mean looking, looking at your logbook from the war, so your first stint in the Royal Air Force there are, you’ve, you’ve compiled a list in the back of the aerodromes that you visited during your service.
KS: Oh yes.
DM: And there’s a hundred and twenty three of them.
KS: No.
DM: Yeah. A hundred and twenty three.
KS: I didn’t think there were that number.
DM: No. Range and that’s sort of like ranging from Cambridge of course. In fact, the first one was a place called, it’s near Newcastle. Walsington.
KS: Usworth.
DM: No. It says Walsington here. Or Halsington. I can’t see if it’s a W. I think it’s a W. Walsington I think. But then it was Cambridge which of course was where you did your training as we’ve already seen. And then eventually of course you end up in 1941 in Lagos and that was when —
KS: Lagos.
DM: You started out there.
KS: Yes.
DM: And then so many places out in Africa until you make the flight back via Lisbon and Foynes. And then after that you make your way up to Inverness and then to Tain which I imagine is the place in the Orkneys.
KS: Tain.
DM: T A I N. Tain. It’s in Scotland. It says it’s in Scotland.
KS: Yeah. It rings a bell somehow. Yes.
DM: Yeah.
KS: Tain.
DM: Yeah, and then various places in Scotland, and then ultimately in 1945 you end up in places like Gosport, Westhampnett which is obviously when you were with the Fleet Air Arm.
KS: Yes.
DM: And then I think the last place in the logbook is a place called High Post. Where ever that was.
KS: Is what?
DM: High Post. That was probably part of your demob, I would think. Probably where you flew to finish. So, you did, were you given the opportunity, can you remember at the end of the war?
KS: Yes.
DM: And as you visited a few German airfields and places obviously after the war ended.
KS: Yes.
DM: But were you offered a commission to stay on and refused it or —
KS: I think I had, a commission. I was a flight lieutenant.
DM: Right.
TS: I think that was after the war. When, when you re-joined the RAF for the second time.
DM: Right. So, anyway, you left the Air Force at the end of the war, didn’t you? You took a break from the Air Force.
KS: Take a break. Yeah.
DM: Yeah. What —
KS: I went civil flying.
DM: Right. Right. And what, what, who were you flying for?
TS: I think you’ve got the order mixed up because you went out to South Africa. Do you remember? To visit —
KS: Yeah, with —
TS: With Harry. Your brother.
KS: The family.
TS: No. No. No. With your brother.
KS: Yeah.
TS: Who had a business out there and I think you worked with him for a few years in his engineering business.
KS: I think so.
TS: Yeah. Which was when I was born in 1949. Out there.
KS: Were you born there?
TS: Yeah. And then we came back.
KS: Yeah.
TS: I think the following year. In 1950 or something. And then later on, I think ’54, I think you re-joined the RAF.
DM: It says ’51 in here.
TS: ‘51. ’51.
DM: Yeah. ’51.
TS: That would figure because I was born in ’49 and we came back in 1950 to the UK.
KS: Did I, did I re-join the Air Force then?
TS: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. According to your logbook you re-joined the Air Force, well, you started flying again in March 1951. And the first aircraft that you flew was a Lincoln.
KS: Was it?
DM: Yes.
KS: Lincoln.
DM: Which was quite a new aircraft then. A new type. Well, I mean I know it’s a version of the Lancaster.
KS: Yeah.
DM: But it was a new, a new type.
KS: That’s right. It was.
DM: And a new thing and it was familiarisation and landing, and stalling and asymmetric feathering, and all the multi-engine type stuff, I imagine.
KS: Yes. It was quite a handful.
DM: Yeah. Do you, can you remember why you joined the air, re-joined the Air Force?
KS: I don’t know.
TS: I think you were probably looking for a job, weren’t you? I imagine getting a job in those days was —
KS: Yeah. I, yeah, I thought that why I joined the Air Force was to get some flying in so that I could go civil flying.
DM: Right. That makes sense.
KS: Yeah.
DM: Hence the Lincoln of course because —
TS: Yeah.
DM: It’s a big aircraft.
TS: Yeah. There’s some letters we have in the album from the Air Ministry actually signing him up for his second stint, and with it came a commission to flight lieutenant, and you were signed up for twenty years’ service at the time. And you actually, at the advent of the, of the dawn of the, of the V bombers they were downsizing the Air Force, and they were making crews redundant and I think you took a golden handshake. Early retirement. So, you didn’t actually do the twenty years. You baled out before that.
KS: Silly thing to do, wasn’t it?
TS: Well, not really because that was the beginning of your civil flying career.
KS: Oh.
TS: After that.
KS: Oh, I see. Yeah.
DM: I don’t know. It’s difficult to see from the logbook where you were based. Tangmere is mentioned quite a lot but I don’t think that was your base.
KS: No.
DM: You were flying to and from Tangmere and doing, doing air tests and so on.
TS: I don’t know whether you would get a Lincoln, would you, into Tangmere?
DM: Well, it says [pause] where are we? I can’t find it now, can I? Yes. Oh no. You’re quite right. That was in an Anson. The first, the first Tangmere venture.
TS: Right.
DM: Which would make sense.
TS: I’m only guessing because Tangmere was a fighter, fighter squadron, wasn’t it?
[recording paused]
TS: Yes. You were. You’d, they put you in Bomber Command, and the go to bomber at the time was, was the Lincoln which was a derivation of the Lancaster. A later model of the Lancaster. So, a lot of your time, early time was spent refamiliarizing yourself with a multi-engine plane and doing all the tests. All the tests, and test flying that are associated with flying big heavy bombers. And I think eventually, I mean David will correct me, I think you ended up at Scampton and Hemswell up in East Anglia. In Lincolnshire.
KS: Scampton.
TS: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s right. I think, and that would have been 83 Squadron, wouldn’t it?
TS: Yeah.
DM: That was your Bomber Command Squadron was 83 Squadron, and I think they were based at Scampton at one point. And it mentions here in 1952 you did some Battle of Britain flypasts. Or you did the Battle of Britain flypast. You did a rehearsal.
KS: Yes.
DM: A couple of rehearsals. Including landing at Biggin Hill.
KS: At Biggin Hill.
DM: Yes.
KS: Oh.
TS: It just so happens I have the picture here.
KS: Eh?
DM: Oh yes.
KS: Oh, is that, is that what it is?
TS: That’s the Battle of Britain flypast.
KS: Oh, that’s me in the middle.
TS: In 1952.
KS: That’s 414. That’s right.
TS: Is that right David? Does that tie up with —
DM: That’s the right date. Yeah.
No. But the aircraft.
KS: You can see, you can see the cutback where the bomb —
DM: It’s a Lincoln and it says —
KS: The bomb went out there.
DM: 414.
TS: Yeah. No. No. This was a Lincoln which was, the thing you’re looking at is a radar dome under, under the aircraft. For the Dambusters you use, you use a Lancaster but this is a, this is a later aircraft so the big bulge under the fuselage which you, I think you thought was the bomb is, is a radar dome.
KS: Oh really.
TS: So, this is in 1952 and the, the Lancaster was then redundant. It was obsolete.
KS: Redundant.
TS: Yeah. And this was, this was a new version of it.
KS: Oh.
DM: Basically, I mean we’re continuing on to 1953, and of course you were operational but there was no war on, and it’s mainly instrument testing and sort of just flying from one place to another. But that was when you were based in Hemswell.
KS: Yes.
DM: A number of exercises in crew training and that sort of stuff.
KS: Yes.
TS: Was that a concrete runway at Hemswell then?
KS: Oh yes.
TS: It was.
KS: Yeah.
DM: So —
KS: All the interesting ones are while the war was on.
DM: Yeah. Although, of course, there is a very interesting one coming up which was when you ended up flying for the film of the Dambusters.
KS: Oh yes.
DM: And you were sort of in charge of the group of pilots who were, who were flying the planes for the film, weren’t you?
KS: That’s right. Yes.
DM: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
TS: But prior to that he was in Malaya doing, doing the stuff in Malaya which you’ll probably come across.
KS: What?
TS: Do you remember going to Malaya? To Singapore.
KS: Pardon?
TS: You went out to Singapore with your Squadron.
KS: Yes.
TS: And you were based in Changi. Do you remember that?
KS: Yeah.
TS: And you were doing bombing missions over, over Malaya to try and suppress the communists who were trying to take over the country there. So, I remember you telling me that you used to, there was a lot of partying going on, and then you would get an instruction to go and bomb. Drop some bombs on some bombs on some coordinate in the jungle on some poor people who were trying to reclaim their country back from the, from the United Kingdom. And then you go back and finish partying. Is that right?
KS: I can’t remember.
TS: No. I shouldn’t think you can.
KS: I can’t remember.
DM: So, that, that’s what they called the Malayan Emergency, wasn’t it? And were you based in Singapore then? Or —
KS: Yeah.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
TS: So, you must have flown out. It must be a long trip out from the UK because I remember when we joined you out there for a year we flew from, I think from Croydon in some, some Hermes or something, and it took us about three or four days to reach Singapore going via India. So, when you flew your Lincolns out there it must have taken quite a while to get there. Do you remember that?
KS: I remember going out. Flying the Lincolns out.
TS: Right.
DM: So would that have been in —
KS: Well, we landed at Changi.
TS: That’s right. Yeah.
DM: I’m trying to find out when? Can you remember what year that would have been?
TS: Fifty [pause] fifty. Well, the Dambusters was ’53, I think. So it must have been early 50s.
DM: Oh no. Here we are. No. the Dambusters is ’54 and this was, it was ’53. So you were in the UK in July ’53 doing various RAF Review rehearsals for formation flying and then you were off to Habbaniya in August 1953.
KS: Off to where?
DM: Then to Mauripur, Negombo and then to Tengah, in brackets Singapore.
KS: So, was this flying out there?
DM: Yes. You see, that was, that was your route out I imagine. So, you took a Lincoln. 672 was the aircraft.
KS: Yes. I remember the number.
TS: Do you? Really. That’s his Squadron, David when he was out with the Lincoln.
DM: So, yeah. You had five crew and three passengers on the flight out there.
KS: Oh, was it?
DM: So quite a crowded aircraft I would imagine. And you arrived in, on, I think you finally arrived in Singapore on August the 26th 1953.
TS: So how long would that take to get there?
DM: They set out [pause] I guess it was the 21st so it was [pause] they flew to somewhere called Idris then, and then from Idris to [Habbaniya] the next day. And then the next leg was [Habbaniya] to Mauripur. Mauripur. And then the 24th was Mauripur to Negombo which I assume is in North Africa.
TS: Yeah. Sounds like it.
DM: Sounds like it doesn’t it? Yeah. And then on the 26th from Negombo to Tengah stroke brackets Singapore.
TS: Gosh.
DM: And then it’s —
TS: It must have been a very boring flight.
DM: Well, yeah. And then you didn’t fly for five days after that, and then on the 31st you and the five crew did a cross country navigation exercise.
KS: What was that?
DM: That was, so after you arrived in Singapore, they gave you five days off.
KS: Oh.
DM: And then you went on a navigation exercise.
KS: Oh.
DM: And then four days later was your first bombing mission. So, you [pause] and then, then still out there you did a Battle of Britain flypast in September.
KS: Where?
DM: Well, I assume you were still, you must have still been still been out in Singapore because there’s no mention of any transit flight or anything. I suppose, outposts of the empire.
TS: Yeah. Yeah.
KS: Yeah. I don’t remember that.
DM: Frighten the locals you know [laughs]
KS: I don’t remember that at all.
TS: I remember visiting the airfield when you were there and they had an aircraft called a Beverley which was a huge transport aeroplane, an ugly thing, and they used to do parachute drops over the, over the airfield which for a, you know for a young kid was very exciting.
KS: I don’t remember.
TS: Well, you were probably off doing something else but it was a very busy airfield. It’s now, it’s now of course the main international airport in Singapore.
KS: At Singapore.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
DM: So, in 19, on the 13th of November you probably won’t remember this but I’ll give it a go. You were involved in an air sea rescue search off Singapore.
KS: Oh.
TS: I don’t remember that either.
KS: I don’t remember.
DM: Two and a half hours that was.
KS: How long did it last?
DM: Two and a half hours. It doesn’t say you found anybody but, and then you did some more strike flying and then —
KS: Air Sea rescue.
DM: Yeah. Somebody must have come down in the drink, I guess. You went to Hong Kong in December. And then you, you came home in January 1954 and again that was another very long flight. You took off on the 7th of January from Tengah to Negombo. Then from Negombo to Mauripur the next day. Mauripur to Bahrain. Then Bahrain to Fayid. Fayid to Idris and Idris to Hemswell. So, you were actually six days flying back.
KS: Really? Six days.
DM: These days you’d be about eleven or twelve hours wouldn’t you, you know?
TS: Yes. Yeah.
DM: So then then you were back home and you were made a flight commander. Do you remember that? In February 1954.
KS: What was it?
DM: You were made flight commander.
KS: Oh, I can’t remember.
DM: Do you have a recollection of that?
KS: No.
TS: What does a flight commander do? [pause] Apart from commanding a flight.
KS: Commands a flight [laughs]
TS: Ok.
KS: Yeah.
DM: I suppose that would explain why you were the man in charge of the seconded people and some civil pilots too who were doing the Dambuster film. Because you were a flight commander so you, you were sent there to keep them in order and take charge.
KS: Yeah.
DM: So, you did a number of air displays and various other things and you were, it’s interesting actually. Obviously, you started flying Lancasters again. So, you’ve been flying the Lincoln and the Lancasters were mainly sort of, you did some low flying practice and various other things and then you were attending air shows and doing flying displays. So almost an early version of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, I would imagine. Something similar.
TS: So that was about the same time as the Dambusters film though.
DM: This was May 1954. And then [pause] yeah. So, the actual, yes, no, you’re right. The dam, so there was some local familiarisation flying and some display flights. There was display flying in the Lincoln. Local familiarisation flying in the Lancaster, and then you started practicing for the Dambusters film on the 8th of April 1954. Low flying practice.
KS: Oh, was there?
TS: Because, because according to the book about the filming of the Dambusters they had to get the Lancasters out of mothballs. They were mothballed in various places, weren’t they? And then —
KS: Yeah. They would be, wouldn’t they?
TS: They were.
KS: Yeah.
TS: There were four aircraft all together and I think they —
KS: Four?
TS: Well, there were four. Three and one spare, I think.
DM: Yeah. And I remember, remember reading that each aircraft was painted with a different number on the side so they could duplicate six aircraft with the three that they were flying. Yeah. So filmed from one side it looks like one aircraft. Filmed from the other side it looks like another. Do you have any recollection of how you got involved in that? Was this another case of sort of somebody telling you, you were going to do it or —
KS: Yes. I can’t remember that.
TS: I think it was mainly due to your flying. Flying prowess that you —
KS: Oh yeah probably because —
TS: Because you’d got —
KS: All this flying.
TS: Yeah. You got good reports in your logbook for your flying skills.
KS: Yeah. I think something like that. Yeah.
DM: I mean you were still flying the Lincoln from time to time in, during filming. So, to do an instrument rating test on the Lincoln in the middle of flying on the Battle of Britain, the Dambusters film. I know there was a lot of very low flying involved in the Dambusters film.
KS: Oh yes.
DM: And I’ve read in the book about it that you took some exception to that at one point because you thought it was too dangerous.
KS: What was that?
DM: You, apparently you had a bit of a set to with the director, or one of the assistant directors because you felt you were being asked to, you and the other airmen were being asked to do things that was somewhat dangerous.
KS: Yeah. It was all dangerous. I remember bad things. Over the, over the lake, and where we were practicing prior to the big show I came along the water. I was sort of almost touching the water and ahead of me was a hill and I left it too late and I got myself into the position that I’d got to climb over the hill and I took on too much. And I said often this flying over the hill, and the crowd got closer and closer. As I was going up the hill it was becoming bigger. Oh dear. I was, I was right on the ground by the time I’d got to the top of the hill. I was almost scratching the top. I said to myself never again. How could you be so stupid to take on things like that? Because it had a certain amount of power, but not all that much. I remember that very well.
TS: Because I think the director, at the sixty feet that you were flying at over the water I seem to remember you saying the director thought on the camera it didn’t look that low so he asked you whether you could go even lower.
KS: Right. Yes.
TS: And you said you’d give it a go.
KS: Yeah.
TS: And I think at some point you were so low that the prop wash was whipping up water off the lake surface.
KS: Yes. That’s right.
DM: Yeah. That may well be. It doesn’t, doesn’t mention the incident but on the 22nd of April you were low flying and being filmed over Lake Windermere. So that that could well have been it I would imagine.
TS: Yeah.
DM: And those fells are pretty steep.
TS: Yeah.
DM: Aren’t they? Around the lakes out there.
KS: Yeah.
DM: So, you survived the war but nearly bought it when you were making a movie basically.
KS: Yes.
DM: Do you have any other memories from that time about making the film?
KS: Making a film.
DM: Yeah.
KS: Oh yes. I remember. Yeah. I remember making a film but it was fairly straightforward like over, flying over Lake Windermere, you know. Just a normal flight. Only it was low. But that was the only difference. It was quite fun. Quite, quite fun.
TS: Well, I think for pilots who like, you know if you want to fly low, it was legal during the filming but probably —
KS: That’s right.
TS: Not otherwise.
KS: Yes.
TS: I remember you telling me a story about going mushrooming in a Lancaster. Do you remember this? I’ll remind you. Then maybe you might remember. You were, I think you were at Kirton Lindsey because of the —
KS: Yeah.
TS: The original road went off a grass runway.
KS: Yes.
TS: And both Scampton and Hemswell were concrete runways.
KS: Right.
TS: So, I think you went to Kirton Lindsey, didn’t you?
KS: Yeah.
TS: And I think between takes of the filming, you were just sitting around and being very high up in the cockpit you could spot these. I remember these massive horse mushrooms you used to get on airfields.
KS: Oh.
TS: And you used to trundle about with a Lancaster looking for these mushrooms, and then the tail gunner would nip out when you found one. Out of the back door, grab the mushrooms and then you’d go to the next one.
KS: Yeah. That’s right.
TS: But, and you told me a story about the station commander banning you from the airfield because of the, the hairy flying that you were doing.
KS: Yeah.
TS: Do you remember that?
KS: Yeah.
TS: Can you tell David what happened?
KS: Yes. Well, I mean, it wasn’t all that big.
DM: No.
KS: Kirton Lindsey. And to get right back as far as you could get, and turn the aeroplane around and right brake, flaps down, and all the rest of the trip because there was not much space and putting the power on, and we started. We were here. That’s the end of the airfield.
TS: Yeah.
KS: And here were the offices. The officer —
TS: Officer’s mess.
KS: Offices as a, as a —
TS: Oh the —
KS: Not a person but the office, you know.
TS: Yeah.
KS: And we got balling up to this, and it seemed to be so long that we were on the ground and this office was coming up getting bigger and bigger and eventually I lifted the thing off the ground, and you usually get a bit of side kicking if you haven’t got enough speed and we just scraped over that one. Seemed to be living, I don’t know I make it sound very dangerous but I suppose it was really.
TS: So, so, so what happened when the CO called you in and said that you —
KS: Oh, we were banned.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Don’t come back.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
DM: So, you were quite a long time on the filming weren’t you because looking in your logbook you’ve still got Dambusters, and still flying 679 mainly, the Lancaster. At the end of August, you’re still, still going strong doing various filming and things. And then I think it looks as though it was about, yes still September still flying the Lancaster. You must, must have got very familiar with it as an aircraft.
KS: Oh yes. Yeah.
DM: How did it compare to the Lincoln?
KS: Well, virtually it was the same as far as I was concerned.
DM: From the pilot’s perspective. Yeah.
KS: Similar.
DM: And then you, then again in September 1954 you were back on the Lincoln.
KS: Yeah.
DM: To do the Battle of Britain flypast, but you actually rehearsed in the Lincoln and did it in the Lancaster, so I suppose because they decided since they’d got the plane they decided they’d do the flypast. Then you also had a spell with the Lancaster again while they’d got it. You did an Air Ministry Film Unit photo, photoshoot in the Lancaster in October 1954.
KS: What was that?
DM: “Air Ministry Film Unit. Photos and ferrying,” it says.
KS: Air Ministry?
DM: Yeah. I suppose while they’d got the aircraft up and running they thought they’d take a few pictures of it for posterity or something like that.
TS: Yes.
KS: I don’t remember that.
TS: We’ve got some stills from the film which are also in the book, and there’s one of a, I think it was a Varsity they used for the filming, air to air filming and there’s a picture of the cameramen in the cockpit or something but which has been mislabelled in the, in the book I think as you and it’s not. It’s actually a film unit. This was a camera platform they used, and they used a Varsity aeroplane to have the camera in to do the aerial shots from the, from the, you know air to air shots of the Lancasters.
KS: Oh yes.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Well, they had the camera out of the window.
TS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
DM: So, it would seem that after you’d finished you did a little bit more flying in the Lincoln in October 1954, but then there was a gap in your logbook until 1955 and then you had a trip in a Vampire. That was your, I think that was your first flight. Yeah. You were second pilot in a Vampire. Circuits and landings.
KS: Was I?
DM: And you were cleared for solo flying in a Vampire on the 17th of January 1955.
KS: A Vampire. I don’t remember flying that.
TS: I think this must have been the beginning of your conversion on to, I think the Canberra bomber had come on stream, and I think all that early jet stuff with the Vampire and the, I don’t know what other aircraft there was. A Meteor, I think. I think that was part of your conversion on to the jets from the Lincoln.
KS: I think it would be, yeah.
TS: Prior to flying the Canberra.
DM: Yeah.
TS: Yes.
DM: And then you were out in the Far East again.
TS: Right.
DM: Well, Changi. In a Valetta. You obviously didn’t fly there because you did a flight from Changi to Labuan. And then Labuan. And then Labuan to Clark Field. That was at the end. That was in a Valetta.
TS: Really? I don’t remember that.
DM: Yeah. And then in February 1955 you flew from Clark Field to Kai Tek, Kai Tec to Saigon and Saigon to Changi. You weren’t doing much flying then. And then back. Then in March you were back on the Vampire and that’s when you started to fly the Vampire all the time. Although again not many flights. The flights seem to have been very few and far between on the Vampire. Probably hadn’t got enough fuel or something.
TS: Do you remember the Vampire? It was a —
KS: I remember the Vampire. Yeah.
TS: It was quite a small aircraft with a twin boom tail.
KS: Yeah. I never flew it.
TS: Yeah. You did. It says in there. But I remember you telling me it was a very nice aircraft to fly.
KS: Oh really?
TS: Yeah.
KS: I don’t remember flying it.
DM: I’m not sure where you, yeah you were flying it out in the Far East. You were flying it at Changi. You were based in Changi and you also flew a Valetta while you were out there.
KS: A Valetta. Yeah.
DM: And then you came back home in [pause] so you, obviously the flying was a bit fewer and further between then, because in January you were, in 1956 in January you were still out in the Far East. And then you don’t fly again until April, and that’s when you were flying at Boscombe Down and Andover in April 1956.
KS: Boscombe Down. What’s that? Was that an airfield?
DM: Yes. It’s an airfield. Yes.
TS: Test Pilot’s School.
DM: It’s where you were and you were flying. You were flying an Anson. And then in May 1956 you started to fly the Meteor.
KS: Meteor.
DM: I’m sure you remember that.
KS: Yeah.
DM: Quite a dangerous aircraft by reputation, I think.
KS: The Meteor.
DM: Yeah. I mean quite a few pilots came unstuck in Meteors, didn’t they?
KS: Oh really. I didn’t know that.
DM: I think so. Yes. There were quite a few crashes. Particularly early on.
TS: Were they difficult to handle then? Or —
DM: I think there were problems with them.
TS: Problems with the —
[recording paused]
DM: So anyway, you really got back in to flying in May 1956, and that’s, that’s when you were, you were actually usually the second pilot but sometimes the first pilot in a Meteor and it was obviously when you were doing your training then.
KS: Doing my —
DM: Doing your training in the Meteor in 19 —
KS: I think so.
DM: Yeah. And still in June and you were up to the type 7 and the type 8 Meteor by then. I don’t know what the differences were. Did you enjoy flying a jet?
KS: Yeah. Yeah. That’s —
DM: Still young enough to enjoy it.
KS: Yes. It was alright. It was good fun.
DM: I imagine that everything happens very fast when you’re flying a jet.
KS: Oh yeah.
DM: You’ve got to have your —
KS: Very fast.
DM: Yeah.
KS: Yeah. If you’re taking off and something goes wrong, and you’re just off the ground what do you do? Go straight ahead.
DM: Yes.
TS: But did they have ejector seats in those days? In the early days of — did they have ejector seats in the early days of jet flying, or was that a later development?
KS: Yeah. I think they had.
TS: They had. Ok.
KS: I think so, yeah.
TS: Right.
KS: Yeah. As they, as they used to drop people in behind the, behind the lines. The German lines.
TS: Yeah. But I don’t think [laughs] that’s quite the same thing I don’t think.
DM: No. So latterly in your Air Force career I see you were flying the Canberra.
KS: The Canberra. Yes.
DM: Yes. You did a lot of flying in the Canberra, which I suppose was all good practice for when you went into civil aviation after you left the Air Force really. It doesn’t say where you were based. I don’t know where you based.
KS: I was based at Scampton.
DM: Oh right. 61 Squadron it says for one of them.
KS: I can’t remember the number. I was based there. Yeah.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Basically, a lot of the war I’d go away and come back. Go away and come back.
TS: There’s the, there’s the Canberra. Do you remember that one?
KS: Oh, oh yes.
TS: Yeah. It’s a pretty aircraft actually. And there’s one here of you in Gibraltar with someone.
KS: Very easy to fly a jet. No big problem.
DM: Yes, that was 61. After you had done your training, you were in B Flight, 61 Squadron. Had you been promoted or were you still a flight lieutenant then?
KS: No. I never got any higher than a —
DM: That was it.
KS: Flight lieutenant.
DM: That was the ceiling of your career.
KS: Yeah.
DM: Too much of the bad boy. You probably answered back too much. Yeah. So —
KS: Yes. There’s not much you can take out of that really is there?
DM: Well, no. I mean we know that you signed up for twenty years in the Air Force.
KS: Hmmn?
DM: You signed up to do twenty years in the Air Force the second time you went in but you didn’t do twenty years, did you?
KS: No.
DM: You, you sort of, I suppose these days it was, you’d say you took voluntary severance.
KS: Yeah.
DM: And that, that’s when you went into civil aviation was it?
KS: That’s what?
DM: When you went into civil aviation.
KS: Yeah, well, I can’t remember the date.
DM: No.
KS: 1950, was it?
DM: Well, you were still in the Air Force in ’58. I think ’58 was when you came out of the Air Force.
KS: Was that it?
DM: Yeah.
KS: Oh.
TS: His, his first job if I remember rightly was with Napier’s. And —
KS: Sorry?
TS: Your first job when you left the RAF was as a test pilot for Napier’s flying, quite coincidentally, flying a Lincoln that had been kitted out with a dorsal wing. A wing coming out of the top of the fuselage which they were doing experiments about de-icing on the wings, so they had all sorts of nozzles and cameras and stuff.
KS: Yes. Yeah.
TS: And I think you had to go off and find some clouds that were, you know likely to be to be, to precipitate some icing.
KS: Cumulonimbus.
TS: Yeah. So, so you did that for a while, and in your album there’s a letter of thanks at Napier’s for your time test flying with them.
KS: Who was that?
TS: Napier’s. The, well, the aviation people. They used to make engines, didn’t they?
KS: Oh, did they? Such a lot. I don’t remember it.
TS: Well, you crammed quite a lot in so it’s difficult to remember all the detail. I’ve been pouring over your logbooks so I probably know more about it than you, and David’s found stuff that I didn’t even know about so I need to go and have another look at them.
KS: Yeah. What you just said. Something about [pause] what was it?
TS: I was talking about Napier’s and test flying.
KS: Yes.
TS: For the de-icing rig that they had on, on a Lincoln.
KS: Yes.
TS: And I think that worked quite well because you’d been flying Lincoln and so you could, you know you were quite useful to them, I think.
KS: Yes. I don’t remember very much about that.
DM: No. You weren’t with them very long I don’t think.
KS: No.
DM: But I can remember coming to visit you at Cranfield Aerodrome which is now, it’s —
KS: Where?
DM: Cranfield.
KS: Oh.
DM: In Bedfordshire. Which is where you were based and flying from.
KS: Oh right.
DM: And at the time I don’t know if it’s relevant to this, but at the time when you were flying, I used to wander around the hangars at Cranfield.
KS: Oh.
TS: And at the time it was a kind of overspill for the Imperial War Museum.
KS: The what?
DM: For the Imperial War Museum, and what later became the RAF museum at Hendon.
KS: Oh really?
DM: And the hangars were stacked full of German aircraft.
KS: German.
DM: Which had been captured.
KS: Yeah.
DM: And also some experimental aircraft that were there. There was, I remember seeing a seaplane. A jet seaplane that was there. And I think all this stuff eventually were, was transferred to the RAF museum at Hendon. But as a young kid it made quite an impression.
KS: It’s a wonder they let you get out alive.
TS: Well, yeah actually.
DM: So, just to finish up you’ve left. You left the Air Force. You worked for Napier’s doing testing.
KS: Yes.
DM: And various other things. Where did you go after Napier’s?
[pause]
TS: That’s a tricky one.
KS: I was flying for [pause] I was flying for what was that? Oh, how could I get it out?
TS: Well, the executive.
KS: Pardon?
TS: The executive flying you did.
KS: Yes, the executive.
TS: But before that, before that you were going around job hunting. Doing various jobs flying where ever you could find them. And I remember you used to go to air shows and you’d be flying a, something like a Rapide, to giving people just, you know joy flights.
KS: Yeah.
TS: At air shows and I think you did that, you know where ever you could just to keep your hours up.
KS: What?
TS: Just to keep your hours up.
KS: Yes. That’s right.
TS: Just to keep your flying hours up.
KS: Yes.
TS: And I remember going on a trip with you once in a Rapide with all these people who hadn’t flown before.
KS: Oh.
TS: And then I think you got a job and I’m not sure how you got the job and I’m not sure how you got the job but you got a job with a merchant bank flying a de Havilland Dove, that they’d bought as an executive eight seater aircraft or something, and you were based at Hatfield which was a de Havilland or Hawker Siddeley, it became. It was their airfield so you were based there with this Dove.
KS: Yes. I was there a long time.
TS: Yeah. So off you go with the Dove. Do you remember. Do you remember flying the Dove? I used to fly with you a bit.
KS: Yeah.
TS: In the Dove.
KS: Yes. I remember.
TS: So, so you’d be flying what? To mainly in the UK with these merchant bankers doing —
KS: Yeah. A lot in the UK but on the continent.
TS: Ok.
KS: Quite a lot in the continent really.
TS: It was a nice little aeroplane I seem to remember.
KS: Hmmn?
TS: It was a nice little aeroplane.
KS: Yes. It was.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Yeah. I remember we used to go at weekends. We used to go to [pause] I can’t remember the name. There’s an airfield.
TS: You used to go, you used to go to Norfolk quite a bit, because the head of the merchant bank had an estate there and they used to go shooting, didn’t they? They used to have shooting parties and things.
KS: Oh yeah. That’s right. But that’s not the one I’m thinking of. I was thinking of Manchester. That way.
TS: Oh right.
KS: I remember taking, in a Rapide, a group of ladies.
TS: Oh, this was doing your joy flying.
KS: Yeah.
TS: Your air experience flights.
KS: That’s right. Anything to get a few coppers.
TS: Yeah.
KS: But this, they these ladies their average age about forty five, I suppose and their weight was about the same in stones [laughs]
TS: They were matron, matron type ladies, were they?
KS: What?
TS: They were kind of matronly ladies.
KS: Yes.
TS: Of some girth.
KS: Oh yes.
TS: That’s right.
KS: I doubted how many of there, because I was only flying a Rapide, you know, and it’s not, not a very big aeroplane, and it turned out I think there were about four or five of them. I thought Jesus. I wouldn’t like to have this weighed you know. It wouldn’t be allowed I wouldn’t think. Anyway, they were all happy and merry, you know. All off. They’d been saving up to go to London I think it was. Somewhere. And it was all right. I took off. It didn’t take too long to get off. I thought it might take the whole runway but they were very sweet ladies [laughs] and that was it. Weekend flying.
TS: Yeah. I remember you did quite a bit of that, I think just, just to make ends meet.
KS: Yeah. Anything like that. Yeah.
TS: Yeah. Because I remember, I remember you telling me that, you know being a pilot, being a civil pilot in those days was feast or famine. They either had too many pilots or not enough and I think you probably hit a period when a lot of the RAF pilots were out trying to find work, and I think work was quite difficult to find.
KS: Right. Yes. It was.
TS: So, after the Dove. Do you remember what, what happened after the Dove? They bought a Hawker Siddeley 125. A jet aircraft.
KS: A 125.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Yeah. That’s right.
TS: Yeah, and then they shared that with, with Beecham’s, the pharmaceutical company.
KS: That’s right.
TS: And —
KS: That wasn’t a jet. It was a propeller, wasn’t it?
TS: No. No. No. It was a jet. The propeller was the Dove.
KS: Eh?
TS: The propeller driven aircraft was the Dove. That was a twin engine propeller.
KS: Yeah.
TS: And then you went on to the Hawker Siddeley 125 which was a jet. One of the first executive jets that were, that were around.
KS: Was it?
TS: Yeah. We have a model of it somewhere.
KS: Really? I can’t remember.
TS: You can’t remember [laughs] and you did a lot of European flying I remember with that because —
KS: A lot of European.
TS: Yeah. Because eventually you went to work for Trusthouse Forte. Do you remember that? And they had holiday villages all over Sardinia, and all over Europe so you were doing quite a lot of European flying then.
KS: A lot of work was what?
TS: You were doing a lot of European flying with Trusthouse Forte.
KS: Yeah.
TS: The hotel group people.
KS: Yes. Yeah.
TS: And then you, then you retired from that. I think you had another bout of problems with your ear if you remember.
KS: Probably.
TS: You were getting ear infections from the damage that was done way back in the war, and I think eventually you chucked it in because you were, you were, you know you were having problems with it.
KS: Yeah. That was —
TS: I don’t know how old you were then. Probably, what, in your fifties?
KS: Sixty.
TS: Yeah. There’s, there’s, a civil flying logbook there somewhere.
KS: Oh, is there?
TS: And that was that.
KS: Oh. That’s in there.
TS: And I tried to get you in to a glider to go flying.
KS: Hmmn?
TS: When I was doing gliding at Lasham.
KS: Yes.
TS: I tried to get you in to a glider to take a trip, and that was the, that was the first time you would have flown for quite some time, I think. Apart from going on an airliner.
KS: Yeah.
TS: And I remember you saying that you’d survived the war, and years of flying with the RAF and you weren’t bloody getting into a plane with no engine.
KS: Yeah.
TS: Yeah.
KS: It could be.
TS: Yeah.
DM: So, when you retired that was it. You didn’t fly again after that. Not as a pilot at least.
KS: No. I never really retired. I stayed and I’d do some —
DM: Just stopped.
KS: I could do weekend flying there.
DM: Right.
KS: And I went to fly for Trusthouse Forte for their top brass and there was some money there. But they were all very nice people really.
DM: And I guess once you did retire. You left Trusthouse Forte and retired, you, you were able to sort of have a life of leisure.
KS: No.
DM: Did you take up, did you take up art again because I know you were a very keen artist.
KS: What?
DM: You were keen on art, weren’t you?
KS: Oh yes.
DM: And so you did some of that when you retired.
KS: Yes. I’m still doing it.
DM: Right. Oh, that’s good.
KS: Done that one up there. That painting.
DM: Yes.
KS: Here you are, David. The —
DM: Oh right. So, this is your, this is your civil aviation logbook. From London Heathrow to Swansea. Something you don’t see very often. Yeah.
KS: When was that?
TS: What?
KS: Finished flying.
TS: It’ll, David will tell us. It’s in your logbook there.
DM: I can’t find a year.
TS: No. I couldn’t either.
DM: I can tell you it was October. Oh, 1970. We’ve got 1970. I think 1970 it looks like it finishes.
KS: 1970, was it?
DM: It looks like, unless there’s any more lurking at the back. No.
KS: No. There wouldn’t be.
DM: 1970. So, you would have been just over fifty, wouldn’t you?
KS: Fifty?
DM: Yeah.
KS: I was looking for a job.
TS: But you, did you miss flying? I don’t think you did, did you?
KS: I think I did in a way. Yes.
TS: You probably missed the travel and the high rolling lifestyle.
KS: Pardon?
TS: I think you missed the travel and staying in nice luxury hotels when you were flying but I remember you saying that you know you’d done, you’d done so much flying that actually you didn’t miss it that much when you finished.
KS: Yeah.
TS: But where some people I know, and certainly when I was at Lasham they, you know some pilots couldn’t get enough of it you know. They they’d retired and they wanted to carry on flying so they went and bought Tiger Moths and other aircraft so that they could keep going.
KS: Oh really? I think if they’d been flying like I was with commercial flying, I think at the end of the day I think you’ve, I think you’ve had enough.
TS: Yeah. I think you probably had the best of it actually, because I think flying these days is probably not, not that interesting or it is certainly safer though.
KS: Yeah. They’ve got all the aids. Yeah. I still, still —
TS: So, so, what, what was your favourite aeroplane out of all, all the aeroplanes you flew?
KS: The Spitfire.
TS: Right. That’s what everyone says.
KS: Eh?
TS: That’s what everybody says.
KS: Oh really?
TS: Yeah.
KS: Yeah. It was a nice aeroplane.
TS: What about the Hurricane?
KS: Yeah. It was, yeah. Well, I didn’t fly the what the, what was it called?
TS: What? The Hurricane?
KS: Hurricane. I flew that a lot.
TS: Yeah. You did. Yeah.
KS: But —
TS: You didn’t fly the Spitfire that much.
KS: No. There’s not all that difference.
TS: Because you were with a Hurricane Squadron for most of the war.
KS: Yeah. That’s right.
TS: Yeah.
KS: But the Spitfire was nicer.
TS: Yeah.
KS: To fly in.
TS: But what I didn’t know was, I mean reading some of the books that you’ve got is that the Hurricane made up the bulk of the aircraft during the Battle of Britain, you know, there were far more Hurricanes weren’t there?
KS: Yeah. That’s right.
TS: Then there were Spitfires. It was a much easier plane to make, I guess and repair.
KS: Yes. As I say it was a jack of all trades.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Yeah. It was a nice aeroplane.
TS: And did you, I mean when you, when you moved to bombers was that, was that, was that interesting for you because having handled a fighter aircraft, bombers were very sluggish and a very different type of flying, I imagine.
KS: Not really. I wouldn’t notice any difference.
TS: It was, because, as you said before, you know it was a job, and you know it seems very glamourous now but at the time it was just run of the mill flying, I guess.
KS: Right.
TS: Is that, would that be fair?
KS: Yeah. But I mean to fly a Hurricane or any of these fighter aeroplanes they were owned by the government. I mean, the fighters, and you didn’t really get a look in unless you were in that part of the world.
TS: Yeah. I think you cost them quite bit of money with the planes that were written off through no fault of your own but —
KS: Yeah. We don’t talk about that.
TS: No. I remember reading about the Hurricanes in Malta which they, they didn’t have very many and they had to keep them flying at all costs.
KS: Yeah.
TS: And they repaired them and repaired them.
KS: Yeah, that’s right.
TS: And they became unreliable.
KS: Yeah. That was in Malta.
TS: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
TS: Do you remember your mate who flew off the aircraft carrier at the same time as you and went to Malta? The Scottish guy.
KS: Yeah. I can’t remember who they were.
TS: No. Your best friend went to Malta, didn’t he?
KS: Yes.
TS: Yeah. Do you remember his name?
KS: No.
TS: Because I don’t either.
KS: Eh?
TS: I don’t. it’s in the back of my head somewhere. He was probably called Jock because he was from Scotland. So —
KS: He was a Scots. A Scotsman.
TS: He was. Yeah.
KS: Yeah. His picture was on one of those.
TS: In one of those books. Yeah.
KS: One you brought.
TS: Yeah.
KS: The photographs.
TS: But he flew off the aircraft and you never saw him again did you because —
KS: No.
TS: He was killed in Malta not long after.
KS: No. I didn’t. I didn’t. I don’t know what happened to him.
TS: Well, I did explain to you he, he his engines started leaking oil, and he was trying to get his aeroplane back to the airfield because they were short of aircraft and then I think he was very afraid that it was going to catch fire which they often did apparently.
KS: They were afraid.
TS: That it was going to catch fire. That the oil was going to ignite.
KS: Oh, I see.
TS: And, and so he, he baled out, but he wasn’t high enough and his parachute didn’t open.
KS: I never heard that version.
TS: Yeah. I’ve told you before about it but you’ve probably forgotten.
KS: The latest I heard that he was flying from Malta and he got shot up and he got back but it was a job to get back. But he died soon after, so whether he was shot out there. Bullets in him I don’t know.
TS: No. Whether he, whether he got shot up and the engine was damaged. That could have been the story. But, unfortunately, he did, it was reported at the time because someone witnessed the accident. He tried to bale out and he wasn’t, didn’t have enough height and that happened quite a lot apparently in Malta, and it certainly wasn’t the first incident like that and —
KS: It could be but I, I thought, I thought one of the stories was that I was stationed out, not in Malta but where ever.
TS: In North Africa. In Libya.
KS: Yeah.
TS: Yeah.
KS: That he, he got back, because someone told me that he had a job walking up getting in and out the aeroplane. I was all muddled up.
TS: I think that’s probably somebody else, but certainly the accounts that I’ve read in the two books, one is, “Hurricanes over Malta.”
KS: Yeah.
TS: And the other one which was called, “Scramble,” which is —
KS: “Scramble.” Yes.
TS: Takes in a fair chunk of Malta but that’s what happened to him. That he baled out and his parachute didn’t open but whether he’d been shot up before that and his aircraft was damaged but he, they had a lot of problems with reliability with the engines.
KS: Well, yeah. There was. They didn’t have all the —
TS: Well, they didn’t have spares for a start.
KS: That’s right. They had, it was very hard to keep them airborne.
TS: Yeah. So, when did you hear about him dying? Was it after the war or did word get back to you at the time?
KS: No. I think the war was still on.
TS: Right. Ok. Because he’s buried in Malta. There’s a —
KS: Hmmn?
TS: He’s buried in Malta. There’s a naval cemetery there.
KS: Yes.
TS: And a lot of the Hurricane pilots ended up in, in that cemetery.
KS: Yeah. I’ve never heard that one before.
TS: Yeah. it was in the book.
KS: Oh really?
TS: Yeah.
KS: It’s a good bet that there were a lot of killed.
TS: Oh, they had a hell of a time. They really, you know, I mean it’s just, you know amazing.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ken Souter
Creator
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David Meanwell
Date
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2021-07-10
Type
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Sound
Format
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01:32:07 Audio Recording
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Pending review
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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ASouterKP210710, PSouterKP2131, PSouterKP2132
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Navy
Language
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eng
Description
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Kenneth Souter was born in Sunderland. His father ran a business importing wooden pit props. Kenneth learned to fly at Cambridge, and his first air experience flight was on the 5th of July 1939, and after training he went solo on the 31st of July 1940 flying a Hawker Hart. After completing advanced training he joined 43 Squadron flying Hurricanes. He flew off HMS Furious to North Africa, and joined 73 Squadron. After flying many aircraft types and on fighter operations and having to contend with flying in the desert he flew back to the UK. He was posted to RAF Usworth on his return. He was attached to the Royal Navy target towing with Martinet aircraft, and in 1945 he was seconded to the Royal Navy flying amongst other aircraft the Seafire. He left the RAF after the war, and re-joined in 1951. He took part in Battle of Britain flypasts and in 1953 took part in bombing missions flying Lincolns against the communist insurgents during the Malayan Emergency. Whilst flying as a display pilot he took part in the filming of the Dam Busters film flying Lancasters which involved low flying. He flew Canberras in 61 Squadron and he continued flying after he had left the RAF.
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1951
1952
1953
1954-04-08
1955
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Malaysia
Malta
Singapore
North Africa
England--Lincolnshire
England--Sussex
Singapore
Contributor
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Julie Williams
43 Squadron
61 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Hurricane
Lancaster
Lincoln
Martinet
Meteor
pilot
RAF Tangmere
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1401/27150/MMooreD1603117-160524-150001.1.jpg
234043a38ca0e46a7c1b188e57cab6e8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1401/27150/MMooreD1603117-160524-150002.1.jpg
2e3334d14679344826ea720bb99b7de5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Moore, Dennis
D Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-05-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Moore, D
Description
An account of the resource
37 items and two albums.
The collection concerns (1923 - 2010, 1603117, 153623 Royal Air Force) and contains his log books, documents, photographs and two albums. He flew operations as a navigator with 218 and 15 Squadrons.
Album one contains photographs of his family and his training in Canada.
Album Two contains photographs of his service in the Far East.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Terrence D Moore and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Dennis MOORE
[heading] Dates – Events [/heading]
1941 – Home town WALLIINGTON [sic] Surrey. Volunteered for RAF Aircrew. Accepted for Deferred Service.
1942 – Joined R.A.F. as U/T Aircrew.
1942-1943 – ITW Newquay – Elected to train as Navigator. No. 1 CNS RIVERS Manitoba. Qualified as Nav 1/10/1943 (Ansons)
Jan-April 1944 – No. 1 (O) AFU WIGTON, Scotland. (Ansons)
May-July 1944 – No. 12 OTU CHIPPING WARDEN/EDGEHILL (Wellingtons)
August 1944 – No., 1658 Conversion Unit CHEDBURGH (Stirlings)
September 1944 – No. 3 LFS FELTWELL (Lancasters)
September 1944 – No. 218 (Goldcoast) Squadron METHWOLD (3 GROUP) 10 ‘Ops’ (6 Daylight Formation-4 Night-time)
28 November 1944 – Transferred to No. XV Squadron MILDENHALL with Skipper promoted to Squadron Commander.
14 April 1945 – Completed Operational tour of 33 Sorties (21 Day Formation – 12 Night-time) Master Bomber on Daylight to SCHWAMMENUAL DAM & Led Formation/Group/Squadron on most Daylight Formations.
July 1945 – No. 109 Transport OTU CROSBY-ON-EDEN (Dakotas).
October 1945 – No. 52 Squadron Transport Command (Dakotas) DUM-DUM Calcutta. All routes to Hong Kong via Rangoon, Bangkok and Saigon.
November 1946 – ‘Demob’ RAF. Join Silver City Airways (Lancastrian, VIP Dakota, Wayfarer etc.) Charter flying. Set new record (10/12/46)- of 4.55 hrs Heathrow to Malta!! First Class Civil Navigators Licence No. 2116
November 1948 – Joined Flota Aerea Mercante Argentina (subsequently Argentine Airways) (Yorks). Left January 1949 after Eva Peron decree limiting numbers of non-nationals in FAMA. Routes Buenos Aires to Madrid and London.
January 1949 – Joined Flight Refuelling on BERLIN AIRLIFT. Flying Petrol In Lancastrians. Completed 98 sorties.
[page break]
May 1951 – Rejoined RAF _ CNCS SHAWBURY (Wellington Mk XI)
October 1951 – No. 5 ANS LINDHOLME. Navigation Instructor (Valetta & Wellington X)
September 1952 – Headquarters Flying Training Command – Command Examination Unit. (Setting and marking all Final Navigation exams for Pilots & Navigators.)
April 1954 – Command Search & Rescue Officer HQ FTC. (Anson!, Balliol & Canberra B2)
January 1955 – Royal Radar Establishment – TFU Defford. Radar etc Development trials (Lincoln, Canberra, Devon, Ashton, Hastings, Dakota, Meteor, Vampire, Wayfarer, Marathon, Valetta, Varsity, Shackleton & Whirlwind.)
November 1957 – Unit renamed RRFU & moved to PERSHORE.
July 1959 – USA – Thor Missile systems training.
December 1959 – No. 82 Squadron SHEPHERDS GROVE (Thor missiles) Launch Control Officer. Returned to USA 1961 to fire missile returned to VANDENBERG AFB from 82 Squadron.
May 1962 – Appointed to FELTWELL Categorization Flight to carry out Launch Crew categorizations on all Squadrons of Feltwell complex.
April 1963 – Commanding Officer No. 721 Mobile Signals Unit METHWOLD. Unit moved to LINDHOLME late 1963. (Bombplot for ‘V’ Force)
November 1964 – Retired from RAF
1964-1984 – Various appointments as Training Officer. (all in Construction, Engineering and Printing Industries)
1984-TPD – Self-employed as Training & Computer Consultant.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dennis Moore List of Experience
Description
An account of the resource
A list of postings completed by Dennis from 1941 to 1984.
Creator
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Dennis Moore
Format
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Two printed sheets
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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MMooreD1603117-160524-150001, MMooreD1603117-160524-150002
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Wallington Garden
England--Newquay
Canada
Manitoba
China--Hong Kong
Burma--Rangoon
Thailand--Bangkok
Malta
England--Heathrow
Argentina--Buenos Aires
Spain--Madrid
England--London
Germany--Berlin
England--Crosby-on-Eden
India--Kolkata
Vietnam--Ho Chi Minh City
Spain
Germany
Burma
China
India
Thailand
Vietnam
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Cumberland
United States
California
California--Vandenberg Air Force Base
England--Middlesex
England--Northumberland
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
12 OTU
15 Squadron
1658 HCU
218 Squadron
3 Group
52 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
C-47
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancastrian
Lincoln
Master Bomber
Meteor
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Chipping Warden
RAF Feltwell
RAF Lindholme
RAF Methwold
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Pershore
RAF Shawbury
RAF Shepherds Grove
RAF Wigtown
Shackleton
Stirling
training
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1401/27272/BMooreDMooreDv1.1.pdf
6f33157a0b1575c878747146f837b62b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Moore, Dennis
D Moore
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Moore, D
Description
An account of the resource
37 items and two albums.
The collection concerns (1923 - 2010, 1603117, 153623 Royal Air Force) and contains his log books, documents, photographs and two albums. He flew operations as a navigator with 218 and 15 Squadrons.
Album one contains photographs of his family and his training in Canada.
Album Two contains photographs of his service in the Far East.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Terrence D Moore and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Dennis Moore
28.06.1923 – 30.10.2010
[photograph]
Autobiographical notes
DM Memoirs (Second Edition)
Compiled and edited by Terry D Moore
[censored lines]
1
[page break]
2
[page break]
Foreward
In late 1991, following the end of the Cold War and the cessation of hostilities in Iraq. the Government's "Options for Change" defence review led to the disbandment of several RAF squadrons, one of which was XV Squadron which had played a significant role in the first Gulf War. As a former member of this squadron, in which he flew as a Lancaster Navigator during the Second World War, my father was invited to attend the disbandment ceremony in Laarbruch, Germany, and I had the privilege of accompanying him as his guest.
Although he continued to serve in the RAF until 1964, Dad had never talked about his wartime experiences but, during the long car journey to and from Germany, all that changed – the memories flooded back as though it were yesterday. The stories became very familiar to me as they were regularly recounted at the many air-shows and Squadron Reunions we attended over almost two decades
Sadly, he did not live to celebrate his birthday on 28th June 2012, the day on which Queen Elizabeth II unveiled the long overdue Bomber Command Memorial in London's Green Park. However, my wife Penny and I proudly attended as his representatives
[photograph]
The ceremony, honouring the 55,730 airmen who lost their lives during the Second World War, was attended by more than 5,000 second world war veterans and it brought to mind the last words of the Antarctic explorer, Captain R.F. Scott: "had we survived I would have had a take to tell . . . . . . ." Well he did survive – a thirty-three sortie tour with Bomber Command, and his tales are told in the form of these "Autobiographical Notes" which he compiled following our trip to Germany in 1991.
I spent many hours editing his notes, which I illustrated with photographs from his albums and, thankfully, was able to get his seal of approval before he died. Since then I have added more photos and later material which I found in his papers. I am certain that he would have approved.
[photograph]
Terry Moore, July 2012
3
[page break]
[photograph]
"60 years on" – with PA474 at RAF Lossiemouth, May 2005
[photograph]
Pam and me at XV Squadron "90th Birthday" reunion, Lossiemouth
4
[page break]
Dennis Moore
AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL NOTES
1923 – 1939
I was born at 98 Camden Crescent, Chadwell Heath, Essex on 28th June 1923. The youngest child of Thomas and Mary Moore 1, brother to Thomas (Owen) 2 and sister Joyce 3.
About 1926/7 the family moved to 150 Croydon Road, Beddington, Surrey.
My education began at Bandon Hill School, Wallington.
At the age of 7 I fell ill with infantile paralysis (Polio). I was taken to St. Thomas's Hospital in London where I spent nearly 3 months. I was immobilised in a body splint but do not remember much about the treatment except having pins stuck in the soles of my feet periodically (mostly in middle of night!). Apparently I was very lucky to have been diagnosed so quickly and affected in whole body rather than in particular limbs. I only remember there being some form of epidemic in the ward and visitors were not allowed for three weeks or so. The doctor promised me 5 shillings (a lot of money for an eight year old in those days) if I could walk unaided from the end of my bed to the end of the bed opposite by the time my parents were allowed back in. He had to pay up! All together I was off school for nearly a year. I started back in a wheel chair but soon discarded it!
In 1934 I got a place at Wallington County School for Boys. I was not very good at school but just about managed to keep up, though mostly somewhere near the bottom of the form! I only once ever obtained good results in exams when I managed to come [italics] first [/italics] in a science exam, and that was only because, by chance, I had swotted up the night before on all the right things!
I joined the school Scouts (9th Wallington {County School} Troop) and did quite well. Our Scout Master, A. D. Prince, was the school science master. I became Patrol Leader of the 'Owls' and eventually obtained the King's Scout badge and the 'Bushman's Thong'. Nearly every holiday was spent camping or 'Trekking'. In 1937 I attended the Scout Jamboree at Zandfoort in Holland (pictures in green photo album). None of us liked the very militant contingent from Germany who threw their weight about at all the 'get-togethers'.
[photograph]
Joyce, Dad, Mum and me
I represented the Scouts at swimming and the school 2nd XV at Rugby. All my spare time was taken up with tennis at Beddington House Lawn Tennis Club, playing and helping to maintain the tennis courts.
My swimming ability arose from the Polio recovery therapy. Long daily sessions were spent in the hospital pool and then in the local swimming baths in Croydon.
Our house was quite close to Croydon Airport and two of my friends lived actually overlooking the airfield. We could recognise all of the airlines and aircraft that we saw landing and taking off each day. This aroused my life long interest in flying.
1 Thomas Henry Moore (1892-1967), Mary (née Tait) (1893-1984)
2 Thomas Owen (b. 3 October 1917, d. 2 November 2010)
3 Joyce (b. 11 July 1919, d. 16 May 2012)
5
[page break]
1939
Mid-June – our summer holiday at The Hartland Hotel, Hartland Point, Devon was delayed so that I could take the last exam of Matriculation (Economics) but I did so badly that we need not have wasted the extra day. I left school at the beginning of July, aged 16
War started on 3rd September and we listened to the radio broadcast by Neville Chamberlain, which was immediately followed by the Air Raid warning and all of us really though that we were about to be annihilated.
I started work at 'CUACO' (Commercial Union Assurance (Marine Department)) in Lime Street, London. Starting Pay was 21 shillings & sixpence (£1.12 1/2) per week and a railway season ticket cost 13 shillings (60p) per month. My boss was called Godin. I spent most of the time making onionskin copies of documents – before the days of photocopiers! The Underwriters were almost like gods and had to be treated as such. The firm had a lunch club in Ropemaker Street (near Moorgate Tube Station). It was a very old and decrepit building and we had one of the top floors, which could only be reached by very rickety stairs. It was well worth the 10-15 minute walk to get there, through the many alleyways and quick-cuts through other buildings, as the meal was free!!! Later, this building was destroyed by bombing and the Barbican now stands on the site.
I joined the AFS (Auxiliary Fire Service) as a Messenger.
1940
Joined the CUACO Tennis club. Played on the sports ground in the Sidcup area. In late summer I witnessed the bombings in the surrounding area.
The evacuation of Allied Forces from Dunkirk, following the German advance through Belgium, Holland and France, took place at the end of May and was completed around 3rd June. I had holiday from work a few days later and went on a cycle tour of Devon. I caught the train to Exeter, then cycled & stayed at YHA's from there. I passed many camps of army people who had just got back. They were not allowed to send mail without it being censored, so I acted as 'Mail Boy' for many of them who called me over from inside the fence. One of the hostels I stayed at was at Waters Meet (now a National Trust site) and the Warden and I were the only two people there. He took me into Lynton (or perhaps Lynmouth) and introduced me to real cider. It did not take much of this to wake up next morning with a very thick head! However, a long hike up the river soon altered that. At Salcombe, I managed to hire a motor boat (dinghy) and could not understand why the chap who hired it to me insisted that there was a full tank of petrol. I now imagine he must have thought that I was going into the Channel to pick up more 'Dunkirk Survivors' – I must have been very naive at the time!!
The 'Battle of Britain' started in earnest about 12th August. I had been playing tennis at Sidcup when the first bombing of airfields started. On the 15th (or possibly the 18th), I was in the garden at 150 Croydon Road Beddington when aircraft flew over with bombs dropping from them aimed towards Croydon aerodrome. The following day I was called to the Bourjois factory with the AFS to try and get underneath some girders to see if anyone was trapped. A few days later, Dad took us all to live with the Robsons in Charlton Cottage, Copperkins Lane, Amersham, which they rented for a short while. I joined the local Scout Troop (1st Chesham Bois) and met the King family. After short time, by general consent, I was made Troop Leader.
I travelled up to London daily by train with George King & his brother. On one occasion, after a very heavy night raid, it took two hours to walk from Paddington to Lime Street through the devastated city. I camped out at weekends at Chalfont Heights and Great Hampden.
The Blitz was at its height during this period and London and the surrounding area were seemingly bombed every night.
6
[page break]
1941
Early in year the folks moved back to Beddington but I stayed on and lived with one of the King family at 'Rose Cottage' in Chesham Bois. I visited Len Reynolds (see Gunboat 658) who worked for Sun Insurance and had been evacuated to Wrest Park, Silsoe, Beds. I cycled from Amersham via Luton and was chased by a dog for a long way up the A6. Recent visits to Wrest Park are somewhat nostalgic.
24th April 1941, on leaving Chesham Bois, I was presented with a Photo Album by George King and members of 1st Chesham Bois Scout Troop.
[photograph]
Len Reynolds and myself in uniform
Changed jobs soon after a devasting German bombing raid on London on 10th May and started with Gold Exploration & Finance Company of Australia, which had been evacuated to Sandroyd School, Oxshott. The first few days were spent in the old office in Basinghall Street helping to move files and papers from the partially bombed building. During the week I lived at Sandroyd (in a small house called Kittermasters) and cycled home to Beddington at weekends. By the end of the summer the Blitz had more or less finished but a German bomber (or parts of it!) crashed in the grounds of Sandroyd one evening while we were out drinking in a local pub!
Volunteered for RAF and attended the selection centre at Oxford University (not sure which college – visits in recent years in no way help me to recognise anything about it). Had a long session with medics to decide if my previous infantile paralysis (Polio) would allow me to be considered for Aircrew. After an interview with four Senior Officers, it was decided that I had passed 'A1' and was 'sworn-in' for deferred service. My actual service in the RAF counted from then. Mum was very upset when I informed her as she was convinced that I would be unfit for any service in the Forces due to my previous medical history and Dad was upset that I had volunteered for the [underlined] RAF [/underlined] because he had already booked me as a nautical apprentice with a post on the Prince Line vessel "Black Prince". I had actually done myself a great favour as the ship was sunk quite early on with the loss of all the crew!
Took part in amateur dramatics at Sandroyd together with others from English, Scottish & Australian Bank (ES&A). Performed in Xmas panto as a character in sketches of the Weston Brothers type. They were very popular Radio characters of the time.
7
[page break]
1942
Early spring, I was called up as U/T Aircrew and reported to Aircrew Receiving Centre (ACRC) at Lords cricket ground and billeted in "Viceroy Court" (one of numerous apartment blocks in Regents Park area). During the first week or so we were kitted out, received inoculations, vaccinations, took night vision tests and attended numerous lectures in various part of the cricket ground. Many of the staff were well known cricketers of the day. Spent about eight or nine weeks here with some odd short periods of leave (weekend passes) so I was able to get home quite easily.
[photograph]
At home in the garden 150 Croydon Rd, Beddington
Posted to RAF Bridgenorth & RAF Ludlow where I helped to build the camps. We lived in tents and were treated like 'dirt'. Most of the time was devoted to learning how to 'skive-off' each evening and get back into camp without being caught! Ludlow was famous for the large number of pubs and we took advantage of this to avoid being seen by the SPs (RAF Police). Fortunately, both postings were quite short lived.
Summer was spent at Initial Training Wing (ITW) Newquay. Billeted in the "Penolver Hotel" on the seafront. I seem to remember it being next door to the "Beresford" (pictures in album). Our Sergeant, called Sgt. Hannah, was very strict but fair and we got on well with him. In the photos I recall many of the faces but I cannot put names to any of them. A certain teaspoon, still in use, came from a little cafe where we had our brief coffee breaks! A glorious summer – spent much time on the beach and in the sea, as well as clay pigeon shooting on the cliffs.
Since I had elected not go to pilot basic training selection but [italics] to train as a navigator [/italics], I remained at Newquay with 2 others while the rest of the course did their 'Tiger Moth' time. We met up again at Heaton Park, Manchester after they had finished their pilot checkouts. Had a miserable time hanging about waiting for next posting. Billeted in a filthy boarding house with a scruffy landlady and every one of the NCOs seemed to make life difficult.
8
[page break]
1943
Early in the year I finally got a posting to Empire Air Training in Canada. We entrained to Greenock (Glasgow) and boarded the Troop ship [italics] Empress of Scotland [/italics].
[photograph]
RMS Empress of Scotland (formerly Empress of Japan)
Hundreds of us were bundled together in tiers of bunks in makeshift accommodation on the port side, fairly well forward on the boat deck. It was a blessing being able to get out into the open quickly as some of the others were down below, almost in the bilges. We spent hours queuing for food but it passed the time quickly. We sailed on our own and had numerous alerts but nothing was seen or heard. Eventually we docked in New York, although we all thought we were going to [underlined] [italics] Halifax! [/italics] [/underlined]
By train up to No. 31 Personnel Depot Moncton (New Brunswick), stopping for nearly a day in sidings in Portland (Maine). People were very hospitable and made us meals and food for the rest of the journey.
It was freezing cold in Moncton but the huts were very warm and I remember barrels of apples at the end of each hut, which were always kept topped up with crisp, juicy, sweet red apples. Although well below zero outside, we never seemed to feel the cold. Time-off was spent in the town of Moncton, mostly in Macdonald's(?) drug store, eating very cheap T-bone steaks and drinking pints of milk. No shortage of food made it a regular paradise after rationing. We also spent hours ten-pin bowling, both in Moncton and in the alley back at camp.
I cannot remember what we did on duty, but do remember coming into contact with a Welsh corporal by the name of Gee who was the most obnoxious individual I have ever come across and who made our life a misery. It was a relief to join the epidemic of Scarlet Fever that swept through the camp. I was quite ill but lucky to find that one of the doctors was the husband of one of the girls that I had worked with at Sandroyd. He helped me when I was fit enough for convalescent leave by suggesting that I didn't go on my own to Montreal but to stay with one of the local families who took in Service people and looked after them. He introduced me to a couple called Tait who lived in Shediac, a place some 50 miles away, near or at the coast. They seemed to like me and 2 days later arrived back to take me home with them. They already had a number of Australian 'Tour Ex' aircrew staying with them, a couple of whom were in a very bad state and were being sent home by way of Canada and America.
[photograph]
The Tait residence was a huge detached property and they had a lovely red setter dog called Terry who took an immediate fancy to me for some reason and was my constant companion for the rest of my stay with them.
The Taits cosseted me right from the start and were most intrigued to find that Mum's maiden name was the same as theirs. They were most concerned when they saw my patched pyjamas and other clothes and really didn't understand when I told them about
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clothes rationing and all the other shortages. They immediately took me shopping to buy a whole set of new clothes and underclothes. Early in my stay they asked if I had ever had oysters and when I said no they immediately took me to a place called Pointe du Cheyne(?), which was 75 miles away up the coast, for an evening meal out. The place specialised in fried oysters and I had a whole plateful of them. They were marvellous and the taste still lingers on even though I have never had them again since. They seemed to think nothing of a 75-mile drive each way just for a meal out. I was introduced to all the inhabitants of Shediac – or so it seemed – and during my stay with them took me all over New Brunswick, visiting all the towns and villages and spent a day in Fredrickton visiting various relatives at the University.
It was a terrible break to have to leave them and get back to real life. One thing however was somewhat sobering and that was the discussions I had with the Australians before they left. I learnt from them what it was really going to be like to go on Bomber operations once training was finished.
Almost as soon as I reported back to camp in Moncton I was posted to No 1 Central Navigation School – Rivers Manitoba. The trip was a 3-day ride on the train and that in itself was a fascinating experience. Eventually I arrived at the town of Brandon after a short stop off in Winnipeg.
No. 76A Navigation Course began almost as soon as I had arrived and lasted from 17th May 1943 to 1st October 1943. After nearly a month of groundwork, I had my first flight in an aeroplane on 5th June 1943. I spent 3 hours 10 minutes in Anson 6882 flown by P/O Davey. [underlined] [italics] I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. [/italics] [/underlined]
[photograph]
76A Navigation Course 17th May – 1st October 1943,
No. 1 Central Navigation School, Rivers Manitoba, Canada
The others on the course were an amazingly good bunch and a number of us used to work and play together in almost perfect harmony. Only three pupils were 'scrubbed', for various reasons, during the course and the list of those completing the course is in my green photo album. Seven of us formed a small group.
Paul Bailey
Ken Waine
Joe Meadows
Doug Holt
Rick Richardson
Don Finlayson
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We were given regular 48-hour passes and the 75 miles on the train to Winnipeg was quite an easy journey. At Eatons, the major department store, we were able to arrange to stay with local people. Nearly all my visits were to a family living in Assiniboine Drive but quite early on Don Finlayson discovered that he had a relation in Winnipeg that he had never heard of before and we spent most of the time at his place, only going back to the others to sleep. I do not remember the name of the people I used to stay with, although I have a vague recollection that their name might be Oliver.
Finlayson's relatives had a youngish daughter and before long all seven of us paired up with other girls. As can be seen from the photo album we enjoyed many happy hours in the Cave Supper Club and danced to the music of Marsh Phimister (Marsh was still around in 1979 when we returned to Winnipeg to visit my cousin Tom Moore4 & his wife Marg!).
THE CAVE SUPPER CLUB
[photograph]
Date SEP 15 1948 No. 9 GIBSON
On one 48-hour pass I travelled to Toronto (or Montreal, I can't remember which) to meet my cousin Tom, whom I had never met before, but still managed to find him amongst the crowds on the Mainline Station. He took me to Hamilton Ontario were [sic] he was billeted. I think we also went to London Ontario but am not certain. He looked after me quite well and we seemed to get on well together, although it was a very short visit before I had to get back to camp.
Although I had never done very well at school, I suddenly discovered that I was just as clever (if not more so) as the others and I began to do well on the course. In the end I managed to finish 2nd on the course and along with 6 others was given an immediate commission as a Pilot Officer whilst all the others were promoted to Sergeant.
About the 5th October I returned to Moncton and almost straight away entrained to Halifax and boarded the Aquatania (or was it the Mauretania?). We sailed without a convoy again but had air cover at both ends with only a small gap in the middle. It was a smooth crossing, in much superior accommodation to that on the journey out. I met a Canadian who, it subsequently turned out, used to work opposite Tom Moore at Ogilvy Mills in Medicine Hat. – Small world!
We landed back at Greenock and I was posted to Harrogate for Officer kitting-out and indoctrination. I stayed at the Queen's Hotel in some luxury and, as there were lots of Civil Servants evacuated to Harrogate, the social life was extremely good. Went to numerous dances and parties including Christmas and New Year.
4Tom Moore (1916-1992) Margaret (nee Rutherford) (1914-1999)
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1944
Posted to No. 1 (O) A.F.U. (Advanced Flying Unit) Wigton, Scotland on or about 10th January and started No. 193 Air Navigators AFU Course.
Towards the end of January I 'went sick' with an undulant fever. Local Medical Officer did not believe me until I got rapidly worse and eventually was transferred to Hospital near Stranraer where Glandular fever was diagnosed. Whilst there, a survivor from a crashed Anson was brought in and all the 'stops' were pulled out to help him survive. Although nearly every bone in his body was broken he gradually rallied and started to make a miraculous recovery. Having recovered from Glandular Fever, I was diagnosed to have a mild leukaemia and started getting massive injections of iron and ate liver until it almost came out of my ears. Walked for miles in the surrounding countryside with some of the other patients and after a while felt fitter than I had for a long time.
I rejoined No. 226 Course on 7th April and finally finished there on 2nd May. I was posted to No. 12 O.T.U. (Operational Training Unit) at a place called Chipping Warden near Banbury. I arrived at Banbury railway station on my own and started enquiring about transport to the RAF Station. I met a Squadron Leader Pilot who informed me that he had already arranged for transport, which would be along in 'about an hour'. We sat and talked and I learned that he was called Nigel Macfarlane (Mac), a Rhodesian, who had already done a 'tour' in Hampdens. He told me that we were both two days late for the start of the course, although through no fault of our own. He seemed to be quite interested in me and my background.
When we arrived on the course, we discovered that most of the others had already had time to choose their own crews and Mac immediately asked me to be his navigator. Together we then looked around for the rest of the crew.
Eventually we got ourselves sorted out and finished up with
Pilot – Squadron Leader Nigel G. Macfarlane
Navigator – Pilot Officer Dennis Moore
Bomb Aimer – Pilot Officer Fred H. Shepherd
Wireless Operator – Sergeant 'Napper' Dennis Evans
Mid Upper Gunner – Sergeant Jimmy Bourke
Rear Gunner – Sergeant 'Nobby' Clarke (655)
The Flight Engineer, Sergeant 'Johnnie' Forster (later to become Pilot Officer), joined us later – after we had left Chipping Warden.
Fred Shepherd wore an 'N' brevet as he had completed a Navigation Course but for some reason had been re-mustered to Bomb Aimer at the end of his course?
The OCU aircraft identification was 'FQ'. All the flying was done in Wellingtons and it is worth noting that one of these – Z1735 – 'S', actually set a record of longevity by operating at this unit from early 1942 until January 1945. We only flew in this aircraft once. During the course both Fred & I were made Flying Officers and the Sergeants promoted to Flight/Sergeant.
We were on an exercise on the night of 5/6th June (D-day), and at the time could not understand why there were so many other aircraft in the sky!
On the 10th July we completed our first Operational flight on what was called a 'Nickel'. We dropped leaflets over Angers in France. The trip was successful and no difficulties other than 'Flak' were encountered.
Much of our flying here was from the 'satellite' airfield of Edgehill which was some distance away and actually on the site of the old battlefield.
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We finished our training about the 15th July, by which time we all seemed to work well together and all the instructors rated Mac very highly.
Posted to No. 1653 HCU (Heavy Conversion Unit) Chedburgh, Suffolk, on or about 28th July after leave. Flying on Stirlings commenced on the 14th August, firstly on 'A' Flight doing mostly circuits and bumps by day & night and then on 'C' & 'D' Flight doing Cross Country, followed by high level bombing practice. During the course we had 2 undercarriage collapses but otherwise the Stirling was quite a pleasant aircraft to fly in.
We did a fair bit of interchange of jobs except that our flight engineer, Johnny Forster had now joined us and he got the major share of actually flying it. I had a short lesson and also a session in the rear turret. It was here that I discovered that I did not feel at all happy looking down. I actually dropped a stick of practice bombs and did very well. On the ground we also did exercises at each other's job and on the gunnery range my '4 sec' burst disintegrated the moving target!
Whilst doing each other's jobs we found out that Mac (the pilot) had attended the Specialist Navigators Course just when the war started (he had come over from Rhodesia and joined the Air Force in 1938). This made three of us who were so-called navigators and it could have presented a problem, particularly as Fred Shepherd rather fancied himself in that role. However, on one trip, Fred started to try and give changes of aircraft heading to Mac from 'pinpoints' that he had observed on the ground without letting me know. Mac had no hesitation in telling the whole crew that, although there were two others who 'at a pinch' could possibly take over, there was only one navigator in the aircraft whilst he was Captain and that was me!! – and he had every faith in my ability to look after all of us as far as the navigation was concerned. This certainly boosted my ego and from then on we all got on famously.
The course was completed on the 4th September and we were quickly posted to No. 3 LFS (Lancaster Finishing School) at Feltwell where we arrived on 7th. Feltwell was a grass airfield with no runways but, nevertheless, we finished our conversion in 4 days and then rushed to No. 218 Squadron at Methwold so that Mac could take over the job of c/o 'A' Flight. We discovered that a few nights previously the Squadron had lost 5 aircraft, one of the crews being the Flight Commander. This was somewhat of a shattering experience to start off with but fortunately our first operation was a relatively easy one, bombing by daylight 'V1' bomb sites at Boulogne. 'Flak' (Anti-Aircraft shells) was quite heavy but there was no fighter activity.
During the rest of September we did two more daylight trips and 1 night trip to Neuss near Dusseldorf. During the early days of Oct. we converted to a form of specialised bombing called 'G.H' – an extension of OBOE. This used a tracking beam and a crossing beam for the release point. On this system the bomb aimer only had to set up the bomb release and I did the actual bombing run and release. The exercises we did proved to be extremely accurate and we regularly dropped practise bombs to within 50 yards from 20,000 feet.
Methwold was built just before the war but had no permanent brick buildings and accommodation was in Nissen huts dispersed in the woods, some over a mile from the Mess, which could only be reached over muddy footpaths. It started to get quite cold in these huts quite early on and scrounging for fuel for the stoves became a major pastime. Barbara Sharp, who used to live five doors from us in Beddington, turned up at Methwold but she did not stay for long. The film 'Journey together' was shot at Methwold and David Tomlinson the actor (of 'Bedknobs & Broomsticks' with Julie Andrews) was on one of the Squadrons. The author – Miles Tripp was a bomb-aimer on the Squadron and his book "The Eighth Passenger" tells of his crew and what happened to them both during and after the war. He talks of one trip taking off at a certain time when we actually took off 1 minute before him on the same operation. My experience and his seemed to differ completely on this particular occasion (see copy of his book obtained 20/01/1994!!).
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During October we completed 2 daylights and 3 night ops and after 1 trip (at night) in November Mac was posted to Mildenhall as Commanding Officer No. 15 (XV) Squadron and promoted to Wing Commander. The next day he sent an aircraft over to fetch us and we then joined the Squadron officially. As the C/O's crew we did less trips than anyone else and as Mac decided to act as a check pilot for the first trip with all new crews, we were asked to fly with one of the Flight Commanders called Flight Lieutenant Pat Percy (known to us as 'Tojo'). This was not a popular move as he was not of the same calibre as Mac but for special trips Mac flew with us and the difference was noticeable by everyone. Tojo was promoted to Squadron Leader in mid-December and we finished the month carrying out 3 daylight and 3 night trips. One of these was as 'Master Bomber' on the Schwammenauel Dam with Mac.
[photograph]
Mildenhall, December 1944
XV Squadron crew, with Lancaster "C" Charlie, ME844
[photograph] [photograph]
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1945
New Year's day opened the month with a 6 hour 5 minute night trip and during the rest of the month a further two night ops and three day trips were completed. On the 14th, returning from Saarbrucken, the East Anglian weather deteriorated so much that all aircraft had to be diverted. We finished up at Predannack in Cornwall and it was an absolute shambles. It is amazing that there were not any collisions as aircraft with very little fuel left tried to get into unknown airfields.
Most of our spare time when 'ops' were not in the offing we used to spend at the Bull at Barton Mills. Mac had his wife Margaret (from Nottingham) and his baby son Ian living there and the whole crew went to keep her company, particularly when Mac himself was not able to be there (see note at end of 1945). He often went with 'Sprog' crews on their first operation, to try and make sure that they were capable of operating on their own. We made many friends from No. 90 Squadron based at Tuddenham, which was also nearby and particularly with a Squadron Leader Pete Dunham and his crew who we subsequently saw blowing up on a daylight operation (see scrapbooks)
Only 2 trips in February (1 day – 1 night) both with Mac, and during this time Johnnie Forster was commissioned and Fred & I took him to London to get kitted out.
About this time I first met Pam. She was going out with Fred and visited him at Mildenhall. For some reason or other we were walking back to camp from the village as a group and Fred chose to go off with somebody else and Pam walked back with me.
Also around about this time I had bought a car and 'passed my test' by driving on leave with 4 passengers down through the centre of London. BAU 62 was a blue Ford saloon named 'EROS' which I bought for £30 at an auction of the effects of a deceased pilot.
Sometime during the month, my sister Joyce came up to visit. She stayed at a small pub quite near the main camp. I have always thought that it was called the George but visits in recent years have failed to find a pub with this name. [italics] (27/05/2014 – Fred Shepherd confirmed that it was "The Bird in Hand" which is just outside the old main gate – Ed) [/italics]
7 Daylight ops during March and mostly with a Canadian bomb-aimer called Tom Butler who stood in for Fred who was deputising for the Bombing Leader. On most of these we led either the Squadron, the Base (No. 32) or the whole Group. A Base was a small group of RAF airfields & 3 Group comprised all the Heavy Bomber Squadrons in East Anglia. All these 'daylights' were flown in quite tight formation – depending on the opposition! To boost moral back at the Squadron, our return over the airfield was always in as tight a formation as possible. On 23rd March we bombed a very precise area on the German side of the Rhine at Wesel (we were the lead aircraft), in preparation for our troops crossing. From all the aircraft bombing, 80 despatched and 77 actually bombed, only one bomb fell outside the perimeter (not us!) and that was as a result of a 'hang up' and not the fault of the crew. In Dudley Saward's authorised biography of "Bomber" Harris, this attack was listed as – 'perhaps the best example of direct support of the Army were the attacks on troop concentrations in Wesel on 23rd March by seventy seven heavies dropping 435.5 tons of bombs immediately prior to the Army launching its crossing of the Rhine and capturing Wesel'. Montgomery wrote to Harris – "My grateful appreciation of the quite magnificent co-operation you have given us. The bombing of Wesel yesterday was a masterpiece and was a decisive factor in making possible our entry into that town before midnight".
At this stage of Bombing Operations in Europe the number of 'Ops' required to complete a 'Tour' changed week by week. At the beginning of the year it was more or less standard at 30 but then it went up, first to 35 then to 40 before coming back down to 35 again in early March. When we went on our 33rd trip on 14th April we still expected to have at least another two to do. It was very much of a pleasant surprise to be told that we had finished as the tour had just been reduced again to 30!! One of the most difficult of trips was always the last with the crew
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so worked up that inevitably things went wrong and the crew failed to return. We were lucky not to have had to go through that trauma. Although so late on in the war, losses were still extremely high, with aircraft being shot down by flak and the more modern German fighters even by rocket aircraft. Losses averaged 5% per trip right up to the end. The end of the European war (VE Day) came on my last day of 'End of Tour' leave and after some celebrations on the way eventually got back to camp to find the mess having a huge party which spread onto the front lawn with fireworks and a colossal bonfire.
Without having much time to think about what was happening, the crew split up and I was posted to Catterick for "Disposal", leaving on the following day. I drove up to Catterick on official petrol coupons and went through the boring process of half choosing and half being told where to go next. At the time it seemed like a good idea to elect for Transport Command to get away from having to stay in Bomber Command and being posted to the Far East in what was known as 'Tiger Force'. I had hoped that I could get on to routes in-and-around Europe!!
After a further leave, when I had to drive on 'acquired' petrol, I was eventually posted to No. 109 Transport OTU Crosby-on-Eden near Carlisle, arriving around the beginning of June. After 4 weeks 'Ground' school – after a false start, I crewed up with:
Pilot – Flying Officer 'Butch' Harris
Signaller – Warrant Officer Ernie Omerod
and flying on DC3 (Dakotas) began on the 7th July and finished on 27th August. On the 1st August the unit was reorganised as 1383 Transport Conversion Unit and it was here that the news of the dropping of the Atom Bombs was announced, as well as the end of the war. Another tremendous party to celebrate.
I was then posted to India! Departed for Morecombe to await transit instructions. Pam came up for few days and we went fishing for Dabs with the others! On 7th October departed for Holmsley South (Hampshire) and the following day we left in a York (MW167) of 246 Squadron for Karachi via Malta, Cairo and Shiebah, arriving on the 10th. Spent a whole month kicking our heels in Mauripur (Karachi) before moving on (see photo album).
On 16th November departed in Sunderland (ML786) for Calcutta. Had a 7 1/2-hour flight, taking-off and landing in the appropriate rivers and enjoying the luxury of a civilian aircraft even though flown by a Wing Commander.
Arrived on 52 Squadron at Dum Dum, Calcutta and almost immediately started route flying in Dakotas. Places visited:
Akyab
Bangkok
Bombay
Canton
Chakulia
Chittagong
Comilla
Hong Kong
Meiktila
Nagpur
Rangoon
Saigon
Although now 3 months since the war finished, there were still the last of the Japanese soldiers (now prisoners) working at various places we flew to and there was much evidence of the utter destruction caused by their occupation. Most of our flights were to ferry the civil and military occupation forces back and forth and even to the more remote areas.
Christmas Eve and Christmas Day were spent on a round trip to Rangoon via Meiktila where our Xmas Dinner was a bacon 'sarni' (we actually had flown in the bacon!)
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1946
New Year's day was spent en-route to Bombay having only returned the night before from Rangoon again. During the month we flew some 71 hours.
Until 5th May we flew with only very short breaks in between and in one month (March) flew 106 hours. It was in March when we had to divert whilst flying over Hainan Island and the only option open to us was to go to Canton (China). We became the first British aircraft to land there since the beginning of the war. As I was the senior British Officer on board the aircraft, the British Consul would only talk to me even though I was not Captain of the aircraft. He was virtually useless and was going to try and arrange for various families to accommodate us in ones and two? The American Consul offered to put everyone up in his Headquarters and I agreed to this much to the annoyance of the British bloke (I seem to remember his name was HALL). Within a few minutes everything was arranged and all 30 odd people allocated a bed, even though somewhat crowded. The crew adjourned to the bar and, as the song 'Rum & Coca-Cola' was all the rage at the time, that's what we decided to have. It slid down very easily and after eating out at a local Chinese Café we eventually returned rather noisily, tripping over various passengers beds in the process. In the morning 7 of the passengers refused to fly with us and decided to return to Hong-Kong by boat. We did the trip in a matter of minutes whilst they took nearly the whole day. To give them their due, when we met up again in Hong-Kong, their spokesman apologised to us and admitted that we knew our own job better than they thought we did and then he bought us all a further round of 'Rum & Coke'.
Soon after this episode we were allocated a very young 2nd pilot called Terry Glover, who ousted me from my usual position in the right-hand seat. After a very scary let-down into Hong-Kong (letting down well out to sea and flying very low level over the water and between the numerous islands) we were guided by our new pilot into a dead-end which was not very popular with 'Butch', who immediately climbed very rapidly, put me back in the right-hand seat and then did a smart 180 before doing another letdown. This time I was lucky enough to find the right way through the islands and from then on I always sat in the front unless the conditions were CAVU (Clear and Visibility unlimited). In 1946 Kaitak airfield was a very different airfield compared to today. The main runway was usually only used from one end (from seaward) as a 1200ft. mountain blocked the other end. It was just possible to land the other way by just scraping the top of the 'Hill' and cutting back on everything, dropping like a stone then pulling out at the last moment!! We did it a number of times but only when the weather was good and even then it was quite exciting. After the war the whole of the mountain was removed and dumped in the sea at the other end of the runway, thus extending the runway considerably. Photos in the brown embossed album just about show this hill. More pictures in the album show various other views and other places. We stayed in a transit 'Hotel' called the 'Arlington' and did a great deal of sightseeing. Bearing in mind that the colony had only just been recovered from the Japanese, there was plenty to see and do. A suite in the Peninsular Hotel (the largest at the time) had been occupied by the Japanese General commanding the colony and was fitted out to remind him of home and even had a little stream running through the bedroom!!
One of the delights of our stays in Hong-Kong was the chance to be able to drink fresh cold milk and we always made a beeline for the local Milk-Bar as soon as we arrived and indulged in the luxury of a long cold pint!! Food also seemed plentiful and we fed well in one or the other of a Russian Café on the mainland, which was called "Timoschenko's" or the "Paris Grille" over on Kowloon.
Our stops in Saigon were also not without their drama as well as relaxation. The French always resented our having taken over from them and a continuous subtle 'infighting' was always taking place. The airfield was run by a joint-force and both the French and British Flags flew side by side on separate flagpoles over the airfield Control Tower. The British troops started one night by taking the French pole down and sawing a foot off the end before putting it back up so that their flag was slightly lower than ours. Apparently it took them a long time to notice but when they did, they reciprocated. Eventually new flagpoles were required and these
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got progressively longer and longer. One evening we arrived to discover the French very much up in arms because the following day their General Leclerc was coming on an inspection visit and they had caught our chaps taking their flag away altogether. As a result we were prevented from parking our aircraft in its usual position and were made to place it in part of a semi circle of aircraft on the tarmac in front of the Control Tower. We told them that we needed to leave at our usual time the following morning (around 8.30 to 9.00) to give us plenty of time in daylight for the 6 1/2-hour flight to Hong-Kong. They chose to ignore us and insisted we park where they told us, despite our protests. When we arrived early the next morning from our hotel in the town, French troops and a large band were already drawn up inside the semi circle, awaiting the arrival of General Leclerc. We carried out our normal preparations, including starting up the engines and testing them out! This infuriated the French and when we went back into the Control Tower for Met. and Flight Clearance briefing, they threatened to arrest us. The British staff winked, gave us a full briefing, with both Met. and the arrival times of visiting dignitaries, and assured us that they would give us taxi and take-off clearance. Walking casually through the French ranks, we informed one of the officers that they would need to move whilst we taxied out but nobody moved. We then decided that it was time to go, so started up our engines again and called for taxi clearance. We got no reply so started to move forward very slowly. The troops decided to give us room to get through and moved aside, but as we turned it was necessary to rev up the port engine and this we did somewhat more enthusiastically than usual. When we managed to look back the bandsmen were chasing their sheet music all over the airfield, so we gave an extra blast just to complete the havoc. As we did so the controller came through advising us to take off immediately and clear the area. Once airborne, the British controller bid us 'good-day' and thanked us for our 'co-operation' and we could hear the glee in his voice. Almost immediately we were formatted upon by 4 Free French Spitfires and we had visions of them shooting us down. However, they stayed with us for nearly 10 minutes before breaking away sharply and going back the way we had come. We found out on the return visit that they thought we were the General's aircraft and that the General's aircraft had landed before they got back. Apparently he was NOT amused to have to arrive without an escort and the Band still not fully reformed!!
On top of all this there were Dacoits and Bandits operating in the area, and there were gunfights around the airfield and Saigon on a number of occasions. Despite all this we enjoyed our leisure in Saigon, the French Club 'Ciercle Sportif' (see Photos).
About this time, I had applied for a job with BOAC through Mr. Robson who was something to do with the Ministry of Transport. I had been given a very good character assessment by our Squadron Commander (see his remarks in my Log-Book) and had hoped that the experience of 'route' flying would stand me in good stead.
In mid May we were given 2 weeks leave and we decided to find the coolest spot we could, so decided to visit Darjeeling. We went by train to a place called Siliguri, which is at the base of the Himalayas. By the time we got there we were hotter than ever and did not relish another train ride up to Darjeeling. However, we joined a miniature train which slowly but surely wound its way up the mountains and it got progressively cooler all the time. When it got near to the top it was going round and round like a corkscrew and in many places it was possible to step off the train, as it was moving very slowly, and then walk up a few steps to meet the line again and wait for the train to come past again. There is a picture of this in the photo album and this little railway is in fact quite famous. By the time we reached Darjeeling I was freezing cold and we had to hang about whilst accommodation was arranged for us. I remember flopping down on a bed in a dingy "guest house" and the next thing I remembered was waking up in the local Forces Hospital. It seemed that I had gone down with a severe bout of flu and some other chest bug as well. I was extremely well looked after in this hospital and there were a number of Sikh and Ghurka officers in the place as well. They all had serious complaints of some sort but as I got better they were a good crowd to be with. Towards the end of the 14 days leave, the others that I had come up to Darjeeling with departed back to Calcutta and I was given an indefinite extension, with sick leave on top. Before leaving the hospital, I was taken by the others to visit the highest racecourse in the world. It was at a place called Lebong and was at 14,000 feet. It was about the size of a large football ground and spent most of the time in
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cloud. Betting was a hazardous affair, as it was not unknown for the horses to disappear into cloud on the far side of the curse, only to re-appear in a completely different order when they came back into view! However, it was very pleasant to be able to sit in a reserved box, rather like the Royal Box at Epsom, drinking our cool drinks and placing a bet when the mood took us. We never ever won anything but nevertheless didn't lose much either. One morning, very early, a whole gang of us hired horses and rode the 15 miles or so to a place called Tiger Hill where we hoped to witness sunrise over Everest. We did see Everest but the sunrise was not quite where we had thought it should be. It was a magnificent sight, however, and well worth the effort to get there. The ride back was less pleasant and we all finished up vowing never to ride a horse again. Needless to say I never have.
One of the patients from the Hospital was a chap called Captain Weston who had a very rare skin complaint which was caused by the heat and humidity of the climate on the plains. His skin peeled off in layers and as a result he nearly died. It was only in the cool of the hills that his skin was able to grow again but as soon as the Medics tried to get him back home the whole process started again. Apparently on one occasion they got him as far as Calcutta ready to catch a plane out but unfortunately the aircraft takeoff was delayed and they had to rush him back to Darjeeling having already lost nearly the whole of his skin again and once again seriously ill. I have often wondered what ever happened to him when I left.
So many people out in India and the Far East suffered from skin problems as well as the dysentery types of disease. Apart from the time in Darjeeling I cannot remember being free from some form of diarrhoea varying from slight to chronic as well as 'Prickly Heat'. We all took Malarial prevention tablets called Mepachrine, which gave a yellowy tinge to the skin. Having the 'Trots' while flying was somewhat of a problem in itself. The Dakota only had one toilet and with 35 odd passengers most of whom suffered from the same problem made things somewhat complicated!! The prickly heat was no respecter of rank and once we had an Air Commodore on board who asked if he could come up front so that he could take his Bush Jacket off and get some cold air to his body. I had never before seen anyone who was so badly affected. His whole body was one mass of it and most was infected through scratching. We opened the side windows for him and after about an hour's flying he got some slight relief. He was most grateful to us and thanked us profusely before going back to the cabin to exercise his authority over the more junior members of his party. The Medics had no cures for any of these problems in those days although they could bring some help to the dysentery sufferers.
I was very reluctant to leave the cool of Darjeeling but eventually had to and took a mad taxi ride down through the tea plantations to the railway at Siliguri and almost finished up with a heart attack as the driver was desperate to show off his skill at negotiating hairpin bends on two wheels and only one hand on the steering. The road drops from about 12,000 feet to sea level in something like 15 miles and did not seem to go more than a few hundred yards without at least one hairpin to turn back on itself. The heat at sea level hit me like an oven and the train ride back to Calcutta was enough to make me swear never to complain about being too cold again. When you are cold at least you can find some way of keeping warm but there was absolutely no way out there that you could cool off when you were too hot.
Back in Calcutta the Monsoon had started with a vengeance but I was immediately informed that I was on the next 'demob' contingent and also that I had been offered a job as Navigator with BOAC as soon as I was 'demobbed'. Very soon after I was on the train again, en-route to Bombay. This took 3 days and we played cards nearly the whole time. I swore that I would never play 'Solo' again after that. It was sweltering hot the whole time and we had all the windows open to catch the air from the movement of the train but most of the time we just got the smoke and smuts from the engine. Food was only available at each of the many stops and since the train was only carrying troops it was a mad rush each time and more often than not we had to scramble back onto the train as it started to pull out of the station without having got anything.
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At Bombay we waited in the transit camp at WORLI until our turn came. After about two weeks we finally boarded the SS Samaria, a small passenger boat, which we were told would take 13-14 days to reach home. As we sailed out of the harbour a large liner steamed in and we were told that it would embark its passengers and sail again within 12 hours and only take 7 days to get home. Sure enough the following day we were galled to see it steaming passed [sic] us with all the troops on her decks jeering at us as they shot past. We were absolutely livid at the time and as everyone was anxious to get home as soon as possible we all felt hard done by. However, we heard later that the liner had broken down and had turned round and gone back to Bombay during the night. Like the tortoise and the hare the laugh was on us as we chugged slowly but surely and arrived in Liverpool after 12 days.
After disembarking we were quickly put through the 'demob' procedure including handing in our air force kit, medicals and being issued with civilian clothes and a rail warrant home and with the minimum of fuss we caught the train to London. All this happened within 24 hours of disembarking and, similarly quickly, arrangements were made for our Wedding on 19th October at St. Andrews church Leytonstone. After a Honeymoon in Hastings I was due to start with BOAC at the beginning of November. However, following a visit to my old civilian company to tell them that I did not want my old job back, I was introduced to Air Commodore Powell who was running SILVER CITY AIRWAYS and decided to join them instead, which I did on 5th November. On the 8th I was navigating an Avro Lancastrian G-AHBW (City of London) from London Heathrow to Nairobi Eastleigh, Captained by Ex-Wing Commander Johnny Sauvage DSO & bar, DFC, arriving back to the 4 huts of Heathrow on the 24th. During December we did 3 trips to Malta and back, one of them in the then record time of 4 hours 55 minutes (see cutting from the Malta Times). Thus ended a very eventful Year.
[photograph]
Sliver [sic] City Airways – December 1946
Johnny Sauvage and crew with Lancastrian G-AHBW “City of London”
20
1947
At the end of my RAF Transport Command Course at Crosby on Eden in 1945, I had been
awarded a certificate which was recognised by the Department of Civil Aviation. Also in February 1946 I had been awarded a Second Class Navigation Warrant number 422, which was also recognised by the D of CA. Whilst working in the office of Silver City Airways (1 Great Cumberland Place, London), I was able to study the additional subjects required to obtain a Civil Aircraft Navigator's Licence. I passed all except [underlined] signalling [/underlined] and re-took this and one other subject to obtain full First Class Civil Licence in May. After another full aircrew medical, licence number 2116 was issued on 7th June 1947.
On 13th June I started flying again with Captain Storm-Clark in G-AHBV "City of Canberra" to Verona. After a further 2 months in their office (during which time Terry was born, we moved from 63 Fladgate Road, Leytonstone, to38 Warham Road, South Croydon, as well as attending a XV Squadron reunion at the Holborn Restaurant on 22nd August), I joined up with Captain R. C. "Hoppy" Hopkins as his navigator on a VIP Dakota G-AJAV. This aircraft was very luxuriously fitted out, with only 6 seats and very superior accommodation. Hoppy immediately 'promoted' me to 'pupil pilot under instruction' and I spent most of my flying time with him sitting in the second pilot's seat, often on my own, while he chatted with the passengers. We flew to France, Belgium, Germany, Portugal and Iceland, as well as locally. I was very disappointed when the aircraft was chartered to fly Churchill out to Marrakesh and I was taken out of the crew. Another pilot took my place to act as formal second pilot/navigator. Hoppy was very upset particularly as the new chap was not a very experienced pilot and had never previously acted as navigator. He had long arguments with the MD of the company (Air Commodore Powell) expressing the opinion that he 'would rather fly with an experienced navigator who at a pinch could fly the aircraft than fly with a not very experienced pilot who, at a pinch, might possibly be able to navigate the aircraft'. Unfortunately the MD would not give way and blamed the charterers, who had insisted on there being two qualified pilots on board and the firm could not afford to have a crew of four (excluding stewards etc.).
In the event I was sent to Belfast to pick up a crew to ferry a Sandringham flying-boat to Buenos Aires. The pilot was called 'Pappy' Carreras (because of his age) and we got on famously together. As well as navigator I was 'promoted' to become 'Mooring Officer', which meant that I stood in the bows to slip the mooring before take-off and had to attempt to catch the mooring buoy with a boat-hook on landing. I had thought that slipping the mooring would be very simple but more often than not it was impossible to do as the aircraft was pulling against the tide and the loop would not come off without the engines being revved hard to take up the slack. Often we surged forward so quickly that I did not have time to get the loop off before we were passing the buoy – still attached to it. Mooring after landing was also just as tricky and I lost a number of boat-hooks before I finally mastered the technique!!
On the way we ate and slept in the 'boat' as the accommodation and cooking facilities were superb. On the leg between Dakar (West Africa) and Natal (Brazil), Pappy commented that although he had done the crossing a number of times, he had never seen Saint Paul's rocks. I gaily said that this time we would see them, not realising how small they were in the wide expanse of ocean. He immediately took me up on it and some 8 hours later (the crossing took 10 hours 20 minutes) was more than astonished when I suggested that if the others were to look out of the starboard windows they might see the rocks in about 5 minutes time. More by pure luck than anything to do with me, we passed them some 6 minutes later about 1/2 mile away. From then on I could do no wrong!!
Pappy had flown during the Spanish Civil War in 1936 but unfortunately for him – on the wrong side – so that he was no longer able to go home. His flying with F.A.M.A. (Flota Aerea Merchante Argentina) meant that he had to be very careful not to ever get diverted to Spain.
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Christmas day was spent in Buenos Aires and I was able to buy some presents there that I could not get at home. (A Tri-ang bus (No. 15) and Xmas Decorations – some of which are still in use today!!) We arrived back in London on New Years Eve (without Pappy who of course normally operated from B.A.)
As a result of my various trips abroad I did not spend much time at home, although when I did, I usually was able to have plenty of time-off from work.
Sometime round about October, Terry had gone into Great Ormond St. Hospital to have a growth removed from his neck. It was more difficult to remove than had originally been thought and when he was able to come home he became very ill with Gastro Enteritis and was taken to the Mayday Hospital in Croydon. He was desperately ill to start off with and took a long time to recover.
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1948
Worked mostly in the office until April, having attended a 52 Squadron Reunion at the Waldorf Hotel on 20th February when, on 8th April, I ferried a MOSQUITO out of Turkey via Jersey & Rome landing at IZMIR. Had trouble with Turkish Customs over three wooden deer bought in Rome. They could not seem to understand way anyone should want to buy such things! An insight into to [sic] the mentality of the Turks we came into contact with is highlighted by the fact that the Turkish government had purchased 100 odd SPITFIRES and a similar number of 'Mossies'. The deliveries were almost complete by the time we took ours out there but they only had managed to have one Mosquito & two Spits' remaining serviceable by that time. The story goes that one Spitfire XI was delivered one evening and the pilot handed it over to the ground crew asking if there was anything they wanted to know about it. During the night it rained hard and when they were getting it ready for a test flight they discovered that the cockpit had a pool of water in it. To cover up the fact that the cockpit hood had been left open in the rain, one bright spark took his drill with the biggest bit that he could find and bored a series of holes in the floor and to let the water drain out!! The Turkish pilot duly took off but came back in after a fairly short flight and refused to sign the acceptance certificate because the aircraft would not pressurise. Apparently the Spitfire XI was one of the first aircraft to have cockpit pressurisation!!!
In May we went to Canada to pick up a Dakota which had just been converted for a company in South Africa. I stayed in Montreal whilst the rest of the crew went down into the States to pick it up. At the time I thought the whole set-up seemed strange but the fact that aircraft were being flown illegally into Israel at the time never occurred to me. Eventually we set off from Montreal to Newfoundland but I didn't prepare properly and we wandered miles off course and I was unable to get a pinpoint fix because I could not recognise any ground feature. Since I had been sitting in the second pilot's seat I eventually decided to go back and try to fathom out why we were 'lost'. After a long period I suddenly realised what I had done wrong – I had borrowed a Canadian map that had the various airline tracks marked on and along the side were the courses to steer. What I had not noticed was that they were magnetic and not [underlined] true [/underlined] bearings. I had applied a correction for the wind and applied variation as usual to arrive at the course for the pilot to steer. As variation in that part of the world was something like 30 degrees, we had in fact been flying 30 degrees off course!! Once I had sussed this out I was soon able to recognise where we were and to start pointing us back in the right direction. Sighs of relief all round!! If we had had some decent radio equipment aboard it would not have been so bad but the aircraft was stripped right down to bare essentials – In retrospect another odd thing.
When we landed at GANDER my preparation was suddenly very much more thorough, the next leg being across the Atlantic. With the fuel that we could carry there were three choices of route bearing in mind the winds that could be expected in the weather systems that existed. First, to head straight across to Ireland and make for Shannon – this was ruled-out as there would be barely enough fuel to do it. Second, to go southwards to the Azores. This was the best for fuel, wind & weather but without radio navigation aids was rather risky – if we missed our landfall there was nowhere to divert to within range of the fuel remaining (if any!). Third, to head for Iceland, which was much the nearest. Unfortunately, with the low-pressure system to the north, the winds would be headwind and very strong. This would again leave us very short of fuel and, as well as this, the landing conditions forecast were not very good. As a result of our discussions we decided that unless we waited a couple of days for the weather to improve, we should consider a fourth possibility of taking the short leg to Greenland, refuelling and then heading for Iceland the following day. This would only, so we thought, take one more day and would allow us to assess the fuel situation when approaching Iceland and perhaps carry on direct to Scotland and, in fact, save us time. This we finally decided to do and although we were unable to get clearance due to radio interference, the controller assured us that it would be alright as he would radio through later on whilst we were on our way. After a very frightening flight to Bluey West One, up a long fiord, we arrived only to be refused landing permission as the flight had not been cleared. Since there was no way we could get back to Gander and there were no other diversions they eventually agreed to let us land. When we did
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the aircraft was surrounded with soldiers and we were told that we would be interned until clearance could be obtained from Washington because of the Israeli situation!!
So there we sat for 7 days whilst the powers-that-be decided what to do with us. We had all bought loads of food to bring home as meat was still rationed and other foodstuffs were in short supply. We had a small fridge on board the aircraft but they would not allow us to run one engine to keep it cold and they would not store it for us. There we were, surrounded by huge Glaciers, whilst all our 'loot' went slowly off. In the end we had to dump nearly all of it. I got sunburned sitting on the nearest glacier and this did little to improve our tempers. Eventually on the 7th day we were allowed to file a flight plan to Weeks (Iceland) and we took off at 22.45 that night. At that time of year it was still almost broad daylight and we landed and refuelled in Iceland, at night but still light enough to see. Two hours later we were off again and landed at Prestwick after a 5hr 40min flight.
After this I was transferred back to flying with Hoppy but in a Bristol Wayfarer (freighter) this time. The first trip was to Karachi via all the short legs possible. We were delayed in Nicosia whilst a new propeller was sent out and we helped the engineer to change it. There was no help forthcoming from the locals (civilian & RAF) although I cannot remember why. This took 7 days and then we were delayed for a further 9 days by the Iraqi Government, so that the whole trip had taken 24 days. It was about the time of Partition in India and the whole of the region was in turmoil. I met a chap that I knew well who was running some form of charter company out there, who offered me a job on the spot, at a ludicrously high salary, if I would join him the same day. The offer was so attractive that I was sorely tempted but I did not want to break my contract with Silver City and leave Hoppy in the lurch. I suspected that the job was either gun running or illegal transport of refugees, so in the end I turned it down. I was to learn later, that the day after we left he tried to take off from Karachi and the plane was so grossly overloaded in the tail that it stalled just after becoming airborne and all aboard were killed outright. As we suspected the cargo was found to be arms and ammunition!!
The next trip was out to Iraq on charter to IPC (Iraqi Petroleum Company) and we flogged up and down the oil pipelines. Having been stuck in Baghdad last trip we had all suffered from the lack of liquid refreshment (alcohol banned and water somewhat 'iffy'), so I bought two bottles of orange squash in Malta to take with us. When I opened my case in Baghdad I discovered a somewhat wet and sticky mess where one of the bottle tops had come loose. Just about everything was covered in juice but it was not until we got to Bahrein that I was able to get everything washed and the case swilled out! It was lucky that we stayed there an extra day or else I would have had to bring the whole soggy mess back home with me. As it was the case was never the same again, even when I relined the inside with brown paper. Terry had the case for a number of years and finally gave it back to me in 1991!
At the end of September I, along with a number of other navigators, was made redundant and then I started my first experience of having to hunt for a job to keep the family fed!! I applied for a job with Flota Aerea Merchante Argentina and, along with another navigator from Silver City called Ross Plews, was called for an interview in their offices in the West-End. We were horrified to see a crowd of 20 or 30 people waiting and spilling out on to the pavement outside. We debated what to do and had decided that, as we were almost the last ones there, it was not worthwhile waiting. We were just about to walk away, when who should try to push past us than Pappy Carreras, who immediately asked me what the crowd was about. When we explained her said, "Wait there while I check in". This we did and within minutes we were called to the front of the queue, much to the disgust of most of the others, and both of us went into for interview to discover Pappy sitting at the long desk with three other officials and I was introduced to the others by him. He then said, "this is the chap I have flown with down to BA and he is the one I would choose without seeing any of the others. If his friend is as good as him we may as well take him on as well – has anyone any objections? – No! – Good! – That's it then! – Let's send all the others away. Welcome to FAMA Dennis – You are hired”.
That's how I came to be flying on an Argentinean York, en-route to Buenos Aires in the first week of November. We were delayed in Natal for three days whilst an engine fault was
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corrected and I got badly sunburned whilst swimming in the sea when there was no shade. Having arrived in Buenos Aires we were met with welcoming arms and I started to look around for somewhere to live but very shortly after a new decree was issued by Eva Peron (she was the power behind throne!) limiting the number of non-nationals working in the country. As FAMA was 75% British, 15% German and the rest Argentinean, this caused immediate problems and, since we were the last to arrive, we were scheduled as the first to go. I was offered the opportunity to navigate a force of Lincolns as a show of strength over the 'Malvinas', provided I gave up my British nationality and took on Argentine citizenship. This I refused to do and so started a week of negotiations to collect some form of compensation and what was already due to me. The expression 'mañana' really came into play and it took all our wits to find someone high enough in the organisation who had the power to do something about our plight. They, in their turn, did everything they could to beat down our demands. Once again it was Pappy Carreras who came to our rescue and we eventually got a flight back with Pappy (see 'Crossing the Line' certificate) landing back in London on the 3rd of December. We came via Madrid and Pappy had been given permission for the very first time to re-enter Spain. Even then he decided to stay in the Airport – just in case.
Once I got back I was quite surprised to get a number of phone calls from various firms offering me a job and I was able to pick and choose, finally agreeing to start at the beginning of the New Year with Flight Refuelling, the firm founded in 1934 by Sir Alan Cobham to investigate the use of air refuelling, and who's pioneering system is still in use today. The BERLIN AIRLIFT was under way and all the Charter firms were fighting for the work that it generated.
[logo] Berlin Airlift [emblem]
[drawing]
[inserted] TX 276/1281 [/inserted]
AVRO LANCASTRIAN – FLIGHT REFUELLING LTD
47403
On 23 June 1948, the Soviet forces occupying the eastern part of Germany blockaded all rail, road and waterway supply routes from the Allied Western Occupation Zones in Berlin. With less than one month’s supply of food and fuel, the prospects for the two and a half million Berliners looked bleak. Only three severely restricted air routes remained as a lifeline between the besieged city and the western world. The Allies responded immediately with a miracle of logistics – The Berlin Airlift. Codenamed Operation Vittles by the USAF, and Operation Plainfare by the RAF, over a period of 11 months Allied aircraft made thousands of flights into the cramped airspace of Berlin and succeeded in supplying everything the city needed. Every available aircraft from RAF Transport Command was in service, as well as hundreds of USAF aircraft and even civil charter firms were called upon to supplement the effort. The operation became so skilled that the Soviet Command eventually realised that they had failed and on 12 May 1949 the blockade was finally lifted.
Avro Lancastrian G-AGWI represents an aircraft which was originally delivered to British South American Airways (BSAA) at Heathrow in January 1946. The aircraft was registered to the Ministry of Civil Aviation for a short period in 1948 before being sold to Flight Refuelling in January 1949. The aircraft was then allotted fleet no. Tanker 26 and flew 226 sorties on the Berlin Airlift.
[inserted] I FLEW IN 13 OF THEM [/inserted] [diagram]
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1949
I report to Flight Refuelling at Tarrant Rushton and am crewed up with a very experienced ex-Air Lingus pilot. It was not until later that I was to discover that he had been sacked from them due to being drunk in flight! After an air test we departed in a Lancastrian for Wuntsdorf just outside Hanover on 13th January. The airfield was RAF and being used by them to fly Yorks on the airlift. It was very crowded with both aircraft and people and we were billeted in a small place called Bad Nenndorf about 10 miles away. There was a reasonable sized Hotel where all Flight Refuelling crews were accommodated. The following day we did two trips into Gatow carrying PETROL.
B.T. O'reilly was the name of the pilot and he became somewhat of a legend on the lift. However he was not a very reliable pilot when sober and, although he boasted that he could land the aircraft better 'on a sea of gin' than any other time, sometimes he was positively dangerous. On one occasion whilst flying into Gatow, I saw him climb out of his seat and then push past me and go to the back of the aircraft. I thought it would be a good idea to go forward and keep an eye on the instruments to make sure 'George' was doing its job properly. To my consternation, I saw that the aircraft was trimmed into a shallow dive (perhaps to counter his moving to the toilet at the rear of the aircraft?) and there was no sign of him returning back to his seat. When we descended below 1,000 feet I decided to get into his seat and was absolutely astounded to discover that the autopilot was not even engaged. I climbed it back up to the proper altitude and called the wireless operator to go and look for 'BT'. He reported back to say that 'BT' was 'out cold' on one of the seats at the back and he could not get him to register that he was needed! At this point we were committed to carry on towards Gatow as we were in the air corridor in the Russian Zone, so I decided that I would make up some story to over fly Gatow and hope that by the time we had got back to Wuntsdorf 'BT' might have surfaced. In the event, just as we approached the Beacon to start letting down to land, 'BT' pushed up to the front and demanded to know why I was in the pilot's seat. We swapped over and I pointed out that he had not put 'George' in when he went down the back. His reaction was happily to say, "these aircraft fly themselves!!" and then carried on to make a perfect landing. I was must relieved when I was asked to take an aircraft back to Tarrant Rushton with another pilot and never had to fly with him again. I was crewed up with a better chap on our return to Germany.
At the end of April we moved to Hamburg and started flying into Tegel instead of Gatow. In June I was allocated yet another pilot who was very young and inexperienced and I was not over happy with him either. When we were withdrawn from the airlift in mid-July, I had completed 89 flights back and forth to Berlin and also carried out a number of ferrying flights to Tarrant Rushton. (See Lecture Notes and 50th Anniversary Celebrations 1999)
[photograph]
With Col. Gail S. Halvorsen – "The chocolate pilot"
Berlin Airlift 50th Anniversary, Berlin 1999
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Two books fully detail the Berlin airlift and the part played by the civil participants (they have been suitably annotated). The one by Robert Rodrigo is the better of the two.
The end of the airlift deposited hundreds of aircrew (many of whom had only just come back into flying for the good money) on to the job market and I was unable to find another flying post. Thus ended my civil flying career.
After flying for so long, finding an ordinary job where my abilities would be of some use and would be recognized by prospective employers, was very difficult. One day I saw a friend from schooldays called Peter Filldew whom I had met at Mildenhall during the war, where he was the orderly-room clerk. He suggested he might be able to get me a job with his firm of Estate Agents (Fielder & Partners) in South Croydon. He obviously gave me a glowing recommendation as my interview was quite short, and I was offered a job as a Negotiator with a very low salary but very good commission on completion of any property that I obtained for their books or was instrumental in selling. The work was very hard and I had to spend long and unsociable hours including Saturdays & Sundays but I managed reasonably well once I gained the necessary confidence.
Soon afterwards we moved house to 248 Croydon Road and this stretched our resources to almost breaking point. The car, BAU 62, which I had bought during the war, had to go and I only managed to get £5 for it and it almost broke my heart to see it being driven away. The bungalow cost something like £1,200 and I got somewhat into debt to raise even the 10% and buying fees. Everything was based on my getting the commission on sales that I thought I should be able to earn. 1949 ended with me still working for Fielder.
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1950
One day at Fielder's, I overheard the receptionist speaking on the phone to someone called Macfarlane and casually asked what were his initials. On being told that they were N.G., I asked to speak to him and asked if he recognised my voice which, after a short pause, he did and we immediately arranged to meet. This caused uproar from the sales manager called Chillcot, who insisted that Mac was already one of [italics] his [/italics] clients and I was not to be allowed to deal with him. All my explanations fell on deaf ears and I had to phone from home to explain this to Mac. He agreed to phone up and cancel the appointment we had made and say that he was not interested anymore. We arranged to meet one lunchtime and go home to our bungalow. I then told the Sales Manager that through his stupidity we had lost a good client and this started an antagonism between us.
The meeting with Mac was quite an event and he suggested that I should re-apply to come back into the RAF and he would back my application if he could. He was still a Wing Commander but holding a post at the Air Ministry and he thought he should be able to pull a few strings.
As a result of this meeting I decided to apply and, after a long wait, was called for interview by a panel, who seemed to feel that wartime service was not a good recommendation for a peacetime commission and they did not even listen to what I had done subsequently. After a further long wait I received a letter addressed to Flight Lieutenat [sic] D. Moore informing me that they were unable to offer me a commission but they would be prepared to let me return as 'NAV 2' (which was the same as Sgt.) As much as I would have dearly loved to have got back into the Service, my pride would not let me accept such a reduction in rank and I therefore wrote back straight away telling them what I thought of their offer.
Working for Chilcott became very difficult and it was obvious that things would come to a head soon. Just when I was expecting to start collecting my first big commissions I was told that I was no good at the job and 'fired'. They would only pay me up until the last day at the basic rate, and no commission money. I appealed to Fielder but he was obviously being influenced by his sales manager and would not help me.
On the job market again, I could only get menial jobs, first as a temp in what then equated to the DHSS issuing new National Insurance Cards and then a more permanent job in the Gas Company working in their costing department. My job was to cost out all the job sheets for the week from the job rates for the various jobs and individuals. This job was running weeks behind when I joined and it did not take long before I was able to catch up and sit waiting for the current week's work dockets to arrive. When the head of my section saw this he 'warned me off' and checked every item of my work so that we looked as though we were still working weeks behind time again. This got very frustrating and I started to look around for another job.
Through the good offices of the Officers' Association I was passed a number of job openings and eventually was interviewed by a firm of grocery distributors called Harvey Bradfield & Toyer. They wanted a salesman to help introduce a Milton's product called Deosan to cafés & restaurants as a means of getting to be their suppliers for groceries as well. I was given the whole of South London to canvas and had to do it all by 'cold selling' and without the use of any transport of my own. Fortunately I made my number with the Public Health Office and frequently got called by them to visit establishments that they had found to be 'unhealthy' and I was able to introduce 'The Deosan method of food hygiene' to them quite easily. I found that the standard of cleanliness in most places I visited to be almost non-existent and the large 'posh' Hotels were the worst. I found this job quite interesting but although I did not feel I was doing a very good job of it, the firm seemed quite happy with my work.
1950 ended with me still trudging around south London and hardly making enough money to live on. Christine had been born on May 28th and this did not make things any easier.
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1951
At the beginning of the year I was still working for H.B.T. and being called-on to visit various places in the South London Area. I asked for a special visit to the Head Office to discuss my work with my boss, who still seemed quite happy with what I was doing but made no effort to increase my wages. I do not remember exactly what I actually earned each week but it was round about £50 per month.
During the last week in March I was in Croydon on a visit and decided to call again on my friend in the Recruiting Office, and here I was asked if I had thought about applying to rejoin the RAF. When I explained about having applied once already and had only been offered 'Master Aircrew' which I had turned down, the Senior Recruiting Officer asked if I would mind if he phoned Air Ministry to find out what the latest situation was. I was quite happy for him to do this and did not expect anything to come of it. It was quite a surprise when he phoned me the next day to say that if I were to apply again I would be given every consideration, so I got him to help me fill in the necessary forms which he duly sent in. It was only a few days later that I was called for interview at the Air Ministry and I went with a totally different attitude to the previous time. When asked the first question which inevitably was 'Why do you want to rejoin the RAF' I decided to take the offensive and replied 'I am not sure if I do – I want you to convince me that I should'. From this point on I could do no wrong.
A greater part of the interview came from a Group Captain on the panel who kept asking me questions about the Argentine and seemed genuinely interested in the answers that I gave. The panel were all smiling when I left and the 'Groupie' asked me to wait for him outside. He then told me that I would be hearing within the next few days – at which I laughingly said that the last time I had heard that remark it had taken over 6 weeks for them to contact me. He assured me that he literally meant 'the next few days' and then asked me if I would wait for him and walk down to the Tube with him. This I did and he told me that he was due to be posted as the next Air Attaché in Buenos Aires hence his interest in my comments.
Two days later I was called for an Aircrew Medical and, having passed this easily enough, was offered a new commission in the RAF as a Flying Officer to start at Air Ministry on April 16th (this was barely 3 weeks since I visited the Recruiting Office in Croydon). Needless to say I accepted and duly reported for duty on the day required and then spent a month getting kitted out and doing some odd jobs for a Wing Commander in one of the departments there. Along with 13 other people reported to Central Navigation School at Shawbury on 23rd May for a Navigation Instructors Course. I teamed up with Jimmy Cuthill (with whom I shared a room) and Bob Hunter (who was a Canadian serving in the RAF).
[photograph]
Navigation Instructors Course, Shawbury 1951
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On 17th June I went with most of the others to Sick Quarters to have our inoculations brought up to date and as soon as I had had mine I began to feel odd. We all trouped back to the classroom and settled down to a lecture on 'how not to lecture' and I could feel myself 'blowing up like a balloon' and my heart racing like mad. I bemoaned the fact that I had never had a reaction to 'jabs' before and I really did feel rough. The Instructor eventually noticed that there was something wrong and told me to go back to the Mess and lie down. I remember 'floating' back and one of two gardeners asking me for the time and me just laughing back at them because I could not see the time on my watch. The next thing I knew was someone asking me how I felt and me just laughing like a mad thing again, and then later somebody standing over me and saying "I am just going to inject some adrenalin into you – you will find yourself shaking but try not to fight it – just let yourself go". I was then carried out to an ambulance and taken to the Station hospital. It seemed like hours before the shaking stopped but eventually it did and I felt very much better – in fact even asked for something to eat as I was hungry! Needless to say, I did not get a meal but was allowed a drink. After a while the M.O. (doctor) came to see me and explained what had happened. I had suffered an 'angino-neurotic' type of reaction to the inoculation and this was extremely rare and quite often fatal unless caught in time. It seems that when the lesson finished everyone wandered back to the Mess for lunch and, since it was a little late, everyone went straight in to eat except Jimmy Cuthill, who decided he ought to check up to see how I was. He found me unconscious on the bed and immediately called for the M.O. but could not find him. Fortunately he looked in the dining room and when he saw him eating his lunch insisted that he came up to our room immediately. The M.O. told me that if I had been left much longer I could very well have died. The humorous part of the story was that, after a good night's sleep and a hearty breakfast in bed, I felt completely fit and was allowed to rejoin the others in class. They were all sitting moaning about sore arms and feeling rotten and I was 'feeling no pain' and was able to 'lord' it over them for the rest of the day!
Flying started on my Birthday on Mark XI Wellingtons! and the course finished with an overseas flight using special navigation techniques (Grid Navigation). I was then posted to No. 1 Air Navigation School at Thorney Island and I reported there on 13th August. This was a prime posting and I was very pleased to get such a good one. However, it soon became obvious that something was not quite right. When I applied for married quarters I was told that I would not be considered "just yet" and no explanation was given when I queried this. When I tried to find out which courses I would be looking after I was allocated as course tutor and then, a little later, told that I was to be held in reserve pending the arrival of another course tutor. I then learnt that this new chap was Les Dibb who had been in the same Group at Shawbury and had hoped to be posted to Thorney but had eventually been posted to Lindholme. It then became fairly obvious that some 'string pulling' had been going on by someone at Thorney.
For the Open Day at Thorney I had arranged for Pam to bring Terry down for the day to look around and see the show. Nobody was more disappointed than me to have to tell her when she arrived that we were not going to be staying, since I had just been informed that my posting to Thorney was cancelled and that I was to report to No. 5 Air Navigation School at Lindholme on 19th September. Terry enjoyed the show until two aircraft flew over and dropped bags of flour (to represent bombs) and fake bangs designed to simulate the explosions & the crashes from the 'Anti Aircraft guns' frightened the life out of him. He yelled his head off and did not want to see anything else and all he wanted to do was to go home.
Just before leaving Thorney I met Ernie Ormerod (signaller) from back in 1946 as well as another signaller that I knew called 'Chuck' Radcliffe who was also on 52 Sqn. I really did not have enough time to do more than say hello before I was on my way.
I duly reported to Lindholme somewhat bitter about the whole thing but was immediately made Course Tutor under Flight Lieutenant 'Mick' Munday on No. 2 Long Navigation Refresher Course. This comprised 6 Officers and 1 NCO who had either been off flying for some long time or who had just come back into the Service. One of them, Flt.Lt. Willis, had been on the same course as me at ITW in Newquay. At the time he was re-mustering from Corporal SP
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(RAF Police) and we had given him a hard time during 'rough and tumble' games on the Beach. He subsequently became the Navigator with Prince Charles when he was learning to fly. They were a good crowd and I got on well with all of them. Our Classroom was a concrete hut, which had been used by the Poles as a church during the war and all the walls had been panelled with carved wood and decorated with religious artefacts. I could not get into quarters so I started looking around for somewhere to live (without much success), so I had travel up and down to Beddington whenever I could manage a weekend off. Without a car it was very difficult but I did manage to get lifts from time to time.
[photograph]
[underlined] No.2 L.N.R. COURSE. [underlined]
BACK ROW:- F/LT. CARR, F/O. GREEN, SGT. JONES, F/O. SWINFIELD.
FRONT ROW:- F/LT. WILLIS, F/O. D. MOORE, F/LT. H. MUNDAY, F/LT. HINGE, F/LT. ROWLAND.
NEGATIVE No LIND 290G 9 UN52/UNCLASSIFIED
When the Long Nav. refresher course finished we started to run navigation courses for National Service people. We found this to be very frustrating as most of those on the course were not the slightest bit interested in what they were doing and they had only chosen to become 'Navigators' as an easy way to spend their time instead of becoming 'PBI' (soldiers!) It was further made much worse when we were informed from a higher source that none of them were to be 'failed' (some political reason no doubt). One of them (a Pilot Officer Simpson) was so bad and such a bad influence on the others that we fought tooth and nail to get him 'scrubbed' but all we did was to made [sic] trouble for ourselves for 'making waves'. I shall always remember his face when he eventually 'passed out' as a navigator and was promoted to Flying Officer. He boasted openly that he was cleverer than us because he had 'beaten the system'. At the time I could only hope that he never had to put a flying crew at risk, as he would surely kill them all and himself as well. I often wonder what happened to him.
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1952
In the New Year we decided to sell the Bungalow and find somewhere up near Lindholme whenever we could. I negotiated with a Sergeant Paine who wanted to sell his car, and he agreed to accept a deposit and the balance as soon as we had sold the house. I did make it clear that I could not possibly pay him until the money came through from the solicitors and we had not even found a buyer for the Bungalow. At the time he seemed quite happy to agree to this but later had doubts and then started to cause me hassle. The car was a Hillman Minx Reg. No. FA7136, which served us well until about 1956.
In the meantime I found a house that the RAF were prepared to take on as a 'hiring' in Crabtree Drive at Five Lane Ends, Skellow, Just off the A1, about 7 miles North of Doncaster and I was able to start setting up a home there. Nowadays the Motorway around Doncaster rejoins the A1 just there and you can just see the road from the Service station at the junction.
The Bungalow sold quite quickly and we got £2,850 for it, having paid about £950 when we bought it. It took a while for all the loose ends to be tied up but eventually I got the money, paid off Sgt. Paine and moved the family up to the new place. Pam was sadly disappointed with it but the people were all very friendly and she began to like it after a while. We had a number of excursions from there and went to the sea at Hornsea on two or three occasions.
Having done well with No. 2 LNR Course I applied for a permanent commission but the Group Captain (Laine – I think) told me that I did not have the right kind of experience to suit me for a permanent career and turned me down. The Chief Navigation Instructor was Wing Commander Hickey (nicknamed 'Bone dome'), who also did not think much of me either. I rather think it had something to do with my leaving Thorney Island under odd circumstances.
After only a year and just getting settled into the house, I was surprised to find myself posted yet again. This time it seemed like a real improvement but very much a 'desk' job as one of the Navigation Examiners at the Command Examination Board, Flying Training Command at Shinfield Park just outside Reading. Our offices were in old huts a little removed from the main building and here began one of the more interesting posts of my career. We managed to find a bungalow to rent from a Mrs Samways at 36 Wood Way, Woodley and we were able to move from Doncaster quite quickly.
Having settled in, I was allocated the exams for the navigator's finals that I would be responsible for. These were: astro-navigation, maps & charts and magnetism & compasses. I also had to set the general navigation paper for pilots. I did not have much time to think before having to do a full set of exams and, only by Christmas, start to really appreciate the scope of the job.
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1953
To start off with, I had discovered that the questions on the subjects that I was to specialise in had previously been picked out by the examiner from a 'bank' of questions based on what had been set previously. After thinking about it for a while and based on my own experience decided that it was possible for the Instructors at the various Training Schools to work out a permutation which would more or less guarantee to predict over 60% of the questions.
All the exam papers were vetted by the newly appointed Chief Examiner (Gordon Arkley) and I did not have much difficulty in convincing him that we should be a bit more professional and he agreed that I could start-off by changing the system in one subject to be going on with. I started with astro navigation and set what I considered to be a very practical paper instead of the usual theory one. I sat back and waited and on the day of the exams the phone stated [sic] to ring and complaints came in thick and fast – 'Unfair', 'Not what we have been used to'; 'We were not able to prepare the students!' etc., etc. As a result, I was asked to attend a high power meeting of all the Chief Navigation Instructors and the senior people on the Examinations Board. In the meantime, I received all the papers for marking and the results showed that one school did very well but all the others failed miserably. When I was grilled at the meeting I was very pleased to have the backing of my own boss. When all of them were presented with the evidence that, apart from the one school, the others had not covered the syllabus properly and 'only taught what was necessary to get the students through the exam', there were a number of red faces and I was not very popular with them. However, the Chief of the Examination Board asked the schools to go back and put their houses in order and told them that from here on in, [underlined] [italics] all [/italics] [/underlined] examinations would be based on the new method and not on the 'Question Bank' method'. He then congratulated me on setting a fair and very practical paper, which should have been welcomed instead of being complained about. So began a new regime and after a while everyone agreed that things were much better than they used to be. We also move into better offices.
Gordon Arkley dabbled in amateur dramatics and had contacts with the film studios at Pinewood. One day he took me across there for lunch and introduced me to Glynis Johns and Robert Newton as well as a couple of other famous film stars whose names escape me. After a very 'boozy' lunch, we went across to the film-set and watched for a couple of hours. I cannot recall which film it was but it became one of the big hits of the 1950's. It was a most interesting experience.
During the year, I managed to get in a few hours flying from White Waltham airfield, mostly in Ansons, to visit other Flying Training Command units (to the Isle of Man and also to Northern Ireland). I also flew in a Procter, a Prentice and a Chipmunk.
It was just before Christmas, when I was sitting at my office desk, busy painting the air traffic control vehicle with black and white squares for the model airfield that I was making for Terry's Xmas present, when the Air Officer Commanding (Sir Arthur Pendred) chose to make his inspection (without notice) of the Examination Board's offices. I really thought I was in for big trouble for doing private work in duty time. When asked what I was doing, I decided to say precisely what, and why I was doing it! He did not blink an eyelid, had a good look at the model and then, as he turned for the door, wished me a happy Christmas and hoped that I managed to get it all finished in time!! Needless to say I put it all away quickly and tried to get on with some 'proper work'. I still expected that there would be repercussions but there never were. Some 5 year later (16/7/58), I was stationed at Pershore and I was flying with Group Captain Innes-Crump to a meeting at West Malling. When we entered the Bar in the Mess to get a drink before lunch, there was a large group in the corner surrounding a very senior officer – It was Sir Arthur! I was never more surprised in my life when he broke off talking to the others and called across to me to come and join his party. He greeted me as though I was a long lost friend and, remembering my name, ordered drinks for me and the Group Captain before asking me, with a smile on his face, if I ever managed to get [italics] that [/italics] Xmas present finished in time!! A marvellous man.
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1954
Started building model aircraft again and flew them in the fields at the back of the bungalow. After losing a glider, I made a Hawker Hunter powered by a 'jet' engine (in fact it was a pellet that had to be lit!) and Terry became quite upset when it got lodged up a tree. He started school in Woodley and has been back there recently to retrace his steps.
Bob Hunter, a Canadian who had been on the same course as me at Shawbury, was also based at Reading and he was always popping round to our place. He and his wife Marg are pictured, in the photo album, with us at the New Years Eve Party.
Having sat and worried about what happened last Xmas, was quite surprised to be offered, in February, a job on the Air Staff as Command Search & Rescue Officer & also to look after the Command Film Library. Apparently there was considerable opposition from some of the others working there (mostly Wing Commanders and above) as normally only 'Permanent Commission' officers were offered this sort of post. However my new boss, Wing Commander Bagott, made it quite clear that someone 'on high' had approved my appointment and immediately suggested that I apply for a permanent commission (my original commission was 'Short Service' – i.e.: 8 years). When I pointed out that I had already applied and been turned down and was reluctant to go through it all again, he offered to have the necessary forms filled in and all I needed do was sign them! By the end of the day this was done, and two days later I was called away from my office to attend an Assessment Board. I was totally unprepared for this but was assured that I did not need to go and get 'dressed up' and 'not to worry'! The interview took about 2 minutes and was a complete farce – we just passed pleasantries! Within a few minutes I was told that, of the 13 candidates having been seen, I was the only one to be recommended. After a few days I was called for another interview with an AVM Allison who carried out a proper 'grilling' but he was very pleasant about it and made it quite plain that it was just a formality.
Shortly afterwards I was offered a brand new Married Quarter and we then moved into 15 Salmond Road, Whitley Wood – right opposite the Baggots! The appointment to a Permanent Commission was not confirmed until 25th August and backdated to 1st June 1954. (I had already been informed verbally quite early on).
[certificate]
In my new job I did a fair bit of visiting and on one occasion, whilst flying with Group Captain Alvey stopping off a [sic] various Units, I had a further brief meeting with Mac (my 'skipper' on Bomber Command). Due to my interest in model making I also got involved in the RAF Model Aircraft competitions and was 'asked' to act as a Judge on a couple of them (see pictures in album).
Here I was introduced to my first flight in a jet aircraft – the Canberra. I have to say that I did not particularly enjoy it (I got air-sick).
My work was very absorbing and most of the dissenters soon began to accept me. I enjoyed mixing with quite senior officers and only found it difficult to get on with some of the 'upward pushing' more junior people. We became very friendly with our next-door neighbours – The Lacey's and we all got on very well together. Christine had started school here and most of the children from 'The Patch' went there as well.
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1955
Having got nicely settled down in our Married Quarter I was somewhat disappointed to receive a Posting Notice in early January. However, I was told that it was supposed to be a prestige posting and about two weeks later I left Reading in a heavy snow blizzard on my way to the Royal Radar Establishment Flying Unit at RAF DEFFORD, near Worcester.
The Mess was deserted when I arrived in the gloom of a Sunday evening, with the snow still pelting down. Later, one or two others came in for a drink and were so friendly that I began to feel a little less dejected than I had been during the journey there. So began almost 5 years of a marvellous posting.
Initially, I lived in the Mess and immediately started flying in various aircraft, on trials of equipment designed by the 'boffins' at the Royal Radar Establishment at Malvern. My first flight was in Hastings TG503 piloted by 'Bert' Welvaert, aged 36, who claimed to be 'the youngest grandfather in the Air Force'. I next met up with Bert at the Berlin Airlift 50th Anniversary in May 1999
[photograph]
Bert Welvaert and myself standing if [sic] front of Hastings TG503’.
This aircraft is now on permanent display at the Allied Museum in Berlin.
I flew in the following types (in no particular order) during my stay on the unit (over 1000 hours all told):
Hastings
Lincoln
Shackleton
Dakota
Varsity
Ashton
Wayfarer
Marathon
Hermes
Devon
Valetta
Meteor
Canberra
Vampire
Whirlwind (Helicopter)
Fairly early on, I quite often flew with a pilot called Flt. Lt. Chase in a Hastings and around March time was scheduled to fly with him again on a trip to Farnborough. One of the other navigators, a Canadian (whose name I cannot remember), asked me to swap with him as he needed only a couple more hours to make up his first '1,000 hrs' before he left the unit to return to Canada. I agreed to do so just to do him a favour, but in the event I did myself a very special one as the aircraft crashed on take off from Farnborough, killing the navigator and severely injuring the flight engineer. The pilot and signaller were less severely injured and the two passengers in the back escaped with only minor injuries. When the news was first
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received, many of us were briefed to quickly break the news to the various wives and families. I was allocated the flight engineer's wife, wishing like mad that I had been able to go to the signaller's instead. However, as it turned out I was lucky again, as the signaller, whose wife had been told that he was "OK and not too badly hurt", had a relapse the following day and died from 'secondary shock'. On the other hand, John Mills the flight engineer, who had not been expected to live, remained in a coma for nearly a month and suddenly woke up one morning demanding to be fed as he was [italics] starving [/italics]! Although he finished up with a plate in his head, he actually returned to flying about six months later. The pilot recovered enough to return to flying but was posted away quite quickly when it was established that he had attempted to take off with the flying control locks still in place (i.e. [underlined] Pilot Error [/underlined])!
It is worth pointing out however, that the Hastings had mechanical locks of a new type instead of the old wooden blocks that fitted on the outside and had to be removed before getting into the aircraft. With the new method there was a lever in the cockpit that had to be actuated to release the locks. If the lever was operated whilst the aircraft had airflow over the wings etc., it did not release the locks as it was designed to do. As a result of this accident a modification was introduced to rectify the fault.
The funeral of the navigator took place in the local church in Pershore and I was a Pall Bearer for the funeral of the signaller in Scarborough. Once these funerals were out of the way, life gradually got back to normal.
After a short while I managed to find a 'hiring' – a large detached house in a very nice spot – 'Severn Croft', Bevere, in Worcester – and moved the family away from Reading. We have lots of expensive furniture, curtains etc., which has to be put away in store for safety. Started to make friends with the 'Lentons & Skeers' for Terry & Christine.
Peter was born in December and a new house is started in the field next to us. I did not fly at all this month and managed a fair bit of time off.
Pictures of us at the Summer Ball are in the photo-album.
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1956
The new Flight Commander (the unit split into two flights – 'A' Flight for piston engined & 'B' for jet aircraft), Sqn Ldr Tebbutt, shared an interest in model making and he started building a model boat whilst I stick to aircraft. I made a Tiger Moth, which flew well, and we used the airfield at weekends. Other aircraft that I made seemed to crash too easily and the Radar servicing Manager suggested that I use radio control. He offered to help me build it but I decided to put it into a model boat rather than aircraft as this was much safer.
Early in the year I got myself elected Mess Secretary, which slowed down the flying somewhat – sometimes to only 10-12 hours each month.
Being Mess Secretary became an almost full time job and, mixed in with developing a new radio control system to put into the destroyer that I built, my time was fully occupied and very rewarding. Two major Mess functions during the year and, as this was such a small Unit, I found myself suggesting, designing and constructing all the decorations for both of them. Fortunately the civilian component of the Unit made sure that I was able to get marvellous procurement & engineering assistance.
Peter was 1 year old just before the Christmas Ball and lots of locals attended his party.
1957
Started flying helicopters and was allowed to take the controls on odd occasions, eventually having some 'formal' instruction. I was told that fixed wing pilots are somewhat difficult to convert whereas other aircrew categories with good 'air sense' usually learn quite quickly. After about 10 hours dual I became reasonably competent and passed the 'brick wall' of it being in charge of you, to you being in charge of it!!
[photograph]
RRFU Defford, 1957
Group Captain Innes-Crump took me under his wing and nominated me as his navigator. We did various trips to conferences etc. and eventually he let me do most of the flying and some take-offs & landings (in a Devon). Many of the pilots started to let me fly the aircraft from the right-hand seat and eventually I even landed a Hastings all on my own (or at least I thought I did).
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[photograph]
Lincoln at zero feet!
Flying with Group Captain Innes-Crump (OC, RRFU Pershore)
At end of October the Unit moved from Defford to Pershore and took on a somewhat more formal atmosphere, which was not to everyone's liking.
10th December 1957, Peter's 2nd birthday and disaster on the Unit. One of 'B' Flight jet aircraft went missing and presumed crashed in the hills over North Wales. I had to visit the wife of one of crew members to warn her that her husband 'would be late home'. A dreadful story to delay the almost inevitable. As a result I was also 'late home' for the Birthday Party and could not say why – I was not very popular!!
Next day, along with others, flew a 4-hour sortie to see if we could find the crash site. Although flying very low ourselves amongst the treacherous hills, we could not find anything. Just before we were due to leave the area, we received a message that Mountain Rescue team had found the site and both crew had been killed. It was some way from where we had been looking near 'Drum Hill'. Another funeral to attend, and just before Christmas too. However see picture in album of us at Xmas Ball a few days later!
1958
Lots of flying each month this year mostly in:
Hastings
Varsity
Devon
Valetta
July – see item, 5th paragraph of 1953 re. Sir Arthur Pendred. Also see article & photos in 'Air Clues'.
The atmosphere at Pershore was not the same as at Defford. However, we all became very settled in at Bevere and friendly with neighbours – Lentons around corner, the Hucksters at the back and the next-door families on both sides. – A very pleasant year.
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1959
At beginning of year got in regular flying each month. Flew in a Meteor for the first time with Wing Commander Lawrence as pilot. Also did some more helicopter piloting but had become quite stale after so long.
April was particularly busy, flying, but after the first few days in June got caught for admin work.
On 10th July I was handed a signal informing me along with others (but not Flt. Lt. Smith mentioned in signal – see photo-album), that passage was booked on the FLANDRE, sailing 17th July, to attend a training course on the 'Thor Missile' in the USA. Mad panic to get ready and needed to get a Dinner Jacket for the voyage and other items at a time when I was particularly low on funds. Pam was not very happy with the idea of me being away for so long and having to look after everything on her own. Fortunately the neighbours at Bevere were all very supportive.
Travelled First Class by train from Worcester via London where we were joined by another group of RAF but who considered themselves very superior and tried to keep apart from us as much as they could. The Flandre was a French passenger liner of some 15,000 tons and the First Class passengers (mostly American – and us of course!) were extremely well looked after. After a very enlightening voyage and a charter flight to TUCSON Arizona, we started our training on Thor missiles at Davis Monathon AFB. Our group consisted of: self; Flt. Lt. Colin Reeve; Flt.Lt. Walker; Flt. Lt. Evans & Flg. Off. Nancarrow, together with Americans: Captains Jim Hadsell; Mel Schaffer & Carl Heintz. After an intensive 'ground' training period there, we travelled by car with Jimmy Hadsell via the Grand Canyon and Hoover Dam to Vandenberg AFB California.
[photograph]
Davis Monathon AFB, Tucson Arizona
Standing (in uniform), L-R: Flight Lieutenants John Evans, Jeff Walker, Colin Reeve, Myself
Below: USAF Captains Jim Hadsell and Mell Schaffer, Flying Officer Frank Nancarrow,, Captain Carl Heintz
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When the training had finished, another charter flight back to New York and thence on the SS America back to Southampton, where I was met by the family, who had been driven there by Mr Lenton.
Posted to No. 82 Squadron SHEPHERDS GROVE as Launch Control Officer in December.
[photograph]
RAF Thor Launch, July 1959
Vandenberg AFB, California
1960
Found a bungalow in Diss – about 10 miles from Shepherds Grove – to take on as a 'Hiring'. We moved from 'Severn Croft' on a very bleak and foggy day. It was very nostalgic as we had started to 'put down roots' in Worcester and very difficult as far as Schools were concerned. The journey was very hazardous as the car was loaded down with all the last minute items – Including the animals. At one point near Diss we finished up in a field because the fog was so thick – but eventually got to Diss about 4 hours later than planned.
I had not been in the Bungalow for long and was at home one lunchtime, when a Victor en-route for Honington, passed overhead quite low making a horrible roaring noise. We all rushed outside to see the aircraft on fire and will the crew to eject (we did not know at this time that only the pilots had ejection seats). Eventually, parachutes were seen to open but the aircraft dived into the ground about 2 miles away. As I was in uniform, I decide to drive towards the crash sight [sic] to see if I could help – but before I could get within a mile of it I was held up by masses of sightseers crowding the narrow lanes. In the end I gave up and returned home. It transpired that 2 of the crew had been killed – one of them opening his 'chute too late and the other (one of the pilots) getting out too late.
Spent the whole of the year on shift covering 365 days a year and having responsibility for 3 Thor nuclear missiles every time I was on shift.
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1961
Was selected to join the Feltwell Thor Missile Training Flight after categorisation by Bomber Command. [italics] Second US trip, this time to Vandenberg AFB, California for THOR test firing] [/italics]
[photograph]
82 Squadron crew. With RAF THOR Missile, Vandenberg AFB
1962
[inserted] Fl/L Moore [/inserted]
Headquarters Bomber Command,
Royal Air Force,
High Wycombe,
Bucks.
[underlined] Order of the Day [/underlined]
[underlined] To all Thor Squadrons and Stations [/underlined]
The decision to phase out the Thor Force of Bomber Command in no way detracts from the vital role which the force played in the past, and the significant part it will continue to play in future, until the very last missile is withdrawn.
Thor was the first strategic missile system operational in the West. At a time when the threat to this country came almost entirely from manned aircraft, you were the most formidable part of the defence of the United Kingdom, and the Western Alliance.
You in the Thor force have maintained a constant vigil day and night for almost four years. You have maintained a higher state of readiness in peacetime than has ever been achieved before in the history of the Armed Forces of the Crown. I am well aware of the sacrifices, so willingly accepted, that this constant readiness has imposed on the officers and airmen of the force.
I am content that History will recognise your devoted service in the cause of peace. I know that I can rely on you for the same devotion during the rundown phase, as you have shown since the birth of the force in 1958.
[signature]
(K. B.E. CROSS)
Air Marshal.
Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief.
Bomber Command
2nd August, 1962.
Announcing the rundown of Britain's THOR missile defence programme
41
[page break]
1963
A very severe winter and had great difficulty travelling back and forth. On the way to Shepherds Grove, while driving along a cutting through a snowdrift, a car coming the other way crashed into me. Although my car was damaged, after temporary repairs I managed to drive it back to Diss and put it in to garage for proper repair. In the meantime, I used the Vespa scooter to get to the Units to do my categorisations. Strange, but everyone seemed to know I was coming, so the grapevine seemed to be working overtime.
All the pipes froze up at 102 Victoria Road, including the underground ones from the mains. Had to get water from our next-door neighbours, who remained unaffected. The Council eventually cleared the mains by passing an electric current in some way.
In July I was informed that [underlined] [italics] my services were no longer required by the RAF [/italics] [/underlined] and that I was to have a 'Last Tour Posting' somewhere nearby. I was shattered by this news as I had very high ratings in my job and good yearly assessments. I appealed to the Group Captain who was as much astounded as I was, particularly as other officers were being kept on whom he would 'court martial' given half a chance. Eventually he informed me that somewhere, someone with 'influence' didn't like me, and I must have upset whoever it was. So no reprieve!
Middle of July, I was posted to 721 Mobile Signals Unit based at Methwold as Commanding Officer – very strange! I was met with the results of a drunken brawl amongst members of the Unit under the previous CO and it took all of my energy and some very smooth talking to get it sorted out. Managed to restore unit pride with only two people being posted away and reprimands for a couple of others. It turned into a happy posting once I got everyone on my side. Managed to get damage fixed without any further problems.
The unit acted as a bomb plot for the "V" Force and had the call sign 'BRANTUB'. Unfortunately in October the unit was ordered to move to Lindholme. So much for it being a 'Last Tour Posting' [underlined] [italics] near [/italics] [/underlined] present residence.
1964
The Lindholme posting was not as bad as expected. Fell ill with flu just as move took place and when I finally drove up there from Diss I found the Unit on an isolated site, well away from the rest of the Station (see photos in 'Nostalgia' album). Everything was in good order and working well, all thanks to the good spirit now on the unit and a Warrant Officer who worked wonders to get it going. I now had an assistant, Pilot Officer Frank Moss, who was a navigator on Vulcans. Since we were acting as a "Bomb Plot" for the "V" Force, I think the idea was for him to persuade me to give good scores despite some of the dismal results they had been getting previously!
Made a number of suggestions for improving our lot on the Station and moral was very high. Managed to get us out of AOC's inspection and this also went down well. On the operational side I was able to invent a means of our not having to listen to the sound put out to simulate "Blue Steel" bombing. This was achieved by converting the sound signal into a visual meter display so that we could watch rather than having to listen for 10 minutes each run. Everyone at Bomber Command were surprised that nobody had thought of this before.
After we had settled in and were given a good result from the Bomber Command Inspection Team, I managed to arrange our shifts so that I could get away for longer periods. Finally, at the end of October, I was given a firm retirement date. I was given a very emotional farewell from the Unit and, although the practice was frowned upon in higher circles, I was given an inscribed watch as a going away present from all the members of the Unit (some 26 people excluding myself).
42
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From Lindholme I was finally posted to Honington to begin formalities to leave the Air Force. I only spent a few days there, handing in Kit and obtaining all the necessary clearances. On 19th November I drove away from Honington having finally 'retired'. I shall always remember it being rather like a dream but I do recall listening on the car radio to a program featuring Pam's cousin, Christopher Gable, who was leaving the Royal Ballet to take up an acting career (Christopher's last performance with the Royal Ballet was in 1965. He died in 1998).
The break was so great that I was hardly able to make any plans for the future.
Right: The final farewell
[Ministry of Defence Crest]
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
MAIN BUILDING, WHITEHALL, LONDON, S.W.1.
TELEPHONE WHITEHALL [indecipherable number]
29th October 1964
Dear Flt. Lt. Moore
The Secretary of State for Defence has it in command from Her Majesty The Queen to convey to you on leaving the Active List of the Royal Air Force her thanks for your long and valuable services.
May I take this opportunity of wishing you all good fortune in the future.
[signature]
Flight Lieutenant D. Moore
43
[page break]
1965
I managed to get a job with Marconi at Southend working with the modifications team and liaison with the RAF! It was very poorly paid but it was the best I could do under the circumstances.
We decided to move away from Diss and chose Chelmsford as the best place to settle down. It was the nearest into London that I wanted to go and the furthest out that Pam wanted to be. We started looking around and were particularly interested in some new houses being built on a development on the edge of town on Springfield road. They were more than I could really afford and the one we liked was suddenly sold to someone else. We needed to move quite quickly and when we saw a chalet bungalow, which Pam seemed to like, we decided to set the wheels in motion to buy it. No sooner had we paid a deposit than one of the new ones came back on the market, even before the walls had been built, so we decided to buy that one instead. I managed to commute half of my £500 a year RAF pension and the £250 translated into a cash sum of nearly £6,000, which only left a small mortgage requirement. The purchase proceeded reasonably smoothly and we finally moved into 2 Llewellyn Close on 9th April 1965. Moving into a newly built house was not such a good idea and all sorts of snags were encountered.
Only earning a pittance and very unhappy with what was expected of me, I started to look around again for another job.
1966
Got a job as Training Officer with Littlewoods operating out of Basildon, visiting all their stores in the south of England. Found it very difficult as all the lady supervisors were very suspicious of me and not at all co-operative. Was suddenly called up to Liverpool and made redundant with no reason given.
1967
Spent the whole year job hunting and at last got a job with John Zinc just outside St. Albans.
1968
21/10/68 – 13/12/68. Completed a Training Officer course (construction Industry) in Slough.
Finally got a reasonable job with Balfour Beatty in Bread St. London but had to leave after they moved to Croydon.
1970
At last I got a decent job! Started with Powell Duffryn, Great Tower St. London on 19th January but made redundant when they de-centralised
1971
After spending most of the year job hunting I finally started working for Letchworth and District Printers Group Training Scheme on 1st December
44
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1972
After travelling the 43 miles back and forth to Letchworth every day and finding it very tiring, we decided to look around for housing in Letchworth. I made up my mind that I wanted to be as near to work as possible and not have to travel any distance at all. Unfortunately this was a period of 'gazumping' and although our offer on the nice house we found in Cloisters Road and had been accepted, suddenly they had another buyer prepared to offer more. Reluctantly we bid for our present house and once again the offer was accepted. At the time of the year it looked much better than it actually was and, to make things worse, the day after swapping contracts the house in Cloisters came back on the market. We had easily sold our Chelmsford house and had completed on that, so we could not afford to change our minds. We finally moved into 116 West View on 15th May 1972.
Having been promised help in re-location by my employers, the Committee that had originally made the offer changed and all the new lot were prepared to give me was £100. I was not very happy about this and made my feelings very plain. But they just shrugged their shoulders.
1973 – 2010 No further entries
[photograph]
Celebrating my 80th Birthday
DM Memoirs (second Edition) Compiled and edited by Terry Moore, October 2010
Appendix and additional photographs – January 2011
Postscript – May 2012
Foreword – July 2012
[italics] The editor accepts no responsibility for inaccuracies [/italics]
45
[page break]
Postscript
The funeral service for my father took place at Harewood Park Crematorium, Stevenage, on Thursday 11th November 2010, attended by family, friends, representatives from the XV Squadron Association and colleagues from the North Herts. Branch of the Aircrew Association, of which he was president.
Like most airmen of his generation, Dad had a great affection for the Avro Lancaster, in which he spent many flying hours as navigator in both war time and peace, so it seemed most fitting that his ashes be scattered from the only remaining Lancaster still flying in this country.
[photograph] [photograph]
In May 2011, my wife and I made the ninety-mile trip to RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire where the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight is stationed and left the casket in the care of the Public Relations Manager who was to make the necessary arrangements.
[photograph] [photograph]
Dad took his "last flight" on 29th August 2011 in Avro Lancaster PA474 escorted by the Spitfire and Hurricane of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. His ashes were scattered over North Norfolk, England.
[chart]
BBMF flight schedule for 29/08/2011
Terry Moore, May 2012
46
[page break]
1945 Appendix 1 Operational Sorties – September 1944 – April 1945
[underlined] NO 218 SQUADRON RAF METHWOLD Aircraft Letters "HA" [/underlined]
[underlined] 17/09/1944 [/underlined]Sortie No: 1 (Daylight). Target [underlined] BOULOGNE [/underlined]
Aircraft – PD277 Code "A". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 2 hours 45 minutes
762 Aircraft – 370 Lancasters; 351 Halifax; 41 Mosquito. Dropped more than 3000 tons of Bombs on German positions around Boulogne in preparation for an attack by Allied troops. The German garrison surrendered soon afterwards.
1 Lancaster & 1 Halifax lost.
[underlined] 23-24/09/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 2 (Night time). Target [underlined] NEUSS [/underlined]
Aircraft – PD256 Code "J". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 hours 35 Minutes
549 Aircraft – 378 Lancasters; 154 Halifax; 17 Mosquito. Most of the bombing fell in the dock & factory area. A short local report only says that 617 houses & 14 Public Buildings were destroyed and 289 people killed/150 injured.
5 Lancasters & 2 Halifax lost.
[underlined] 26/09/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 3 (Daylight). Target [underlined] CAP GRIS NEZ [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlare [sic]
Flying Time – 2 Hours 55 Minutes
722 Aircraft – 388 Lancasters, 289 Halifax; 45 Mosquito – 531 aircraft to CAP GRIS NEZ (4 Targets) and 191 aircraft to 3 Targets in CALAIS. Accurate and intense bombing of all targets.
1 Lancaster lost
[underlined] 28/09/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 4 (Daylight). Target [underlined] CALAIS [/underlined]
Aircraft – PD277 Code "A". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 2 Hours 35 Minutes
341 Aircraft – 222 Lancasters; 84 Halifax; 35 Moquito. [sic] Target area covered in cloud but Master Bomber brought the force below cloud to bomb visually. Bombing was accurate.
1 Lancaster Lost
[underlined] 14/10/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 5 (Daylight). Target [underlined] DUISBURG [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 Hours 5 Minutes
This raid was part of a special operation. (See page 601 of Bomber Command Diaries)
1013 Aircraft – 519 Lancasters; 474 Halifax; 20 Mosquito with RAF fighters escorting.
3574 Tons of HE & 820 Tons of incendiary.
13 Lancasters & 1 Halifax lost.
[underlined] 15/10/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 6 (Night time). Target [underlined] WILHEMSHAVEN [sic] [/underlined]
Aircraft ? Code "C". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 Hours
506 Aircraft – 257 Halifax; 241 Lancasters; 8 Mosquito.
Last of 14 Major raids on Port of Wilhemshaven [sic]. Bomber Command claimed "severe damage caused."
No record of any losses noted.
[underlined] 19/10/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 7 (Night time). Target [underlined] STUTTGART [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 6 Hours 30 Minutes
565 Lancasters & 18 Mosquito in 2 forces 4 hours apart.
Serious damage caused to central and eastern districts (including BOSCH factory)
6 Lancasters lost.
[underlined] 23/10/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No. 8 (Night time). Target [underlined] ESSEN [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 5 Hours 5 Minutes
1055 Aircraft – 561 Lancasters; 463 Halifax & 31 Mosquito. This was the heaviest raid on Essen so far in the war and the number of aircraft also the greatest number on any target. (These results achieved [underlined] without [/underlined] the Lancasters from 5 Group!! 4538 Tons of Bombs dropped.
[underlined] 29/10/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 9 (Daylight). Target [underlined] WESTKAPELLE (WALCHEREN) [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 2 Hours 15 Minutes
358 Aircraft – 194 Lancasters; 128 Halifax & 36 Mosquito.
11 different ground positions attacked. Visibility was good and results were accurate.
1 Lancaster lost.
47
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[underlined] 04/11/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 10 (Daylight). Target [underlined] SOLINGEN [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 Hours 30 Minutes
176 Lancasters of 3 Group. The raid was not considered successful as bombing scattered.
4 Lancasters lost
Note: Aircraft NF934 Code "G" went "missing" on 12/12/1944
Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane promoted to Wing Commander and posted as Officer Commanding No: XV Squadron RAF Mildenhall in mid-November and sends aircraft to fetch whole crew from Methwold
[underlined] NO: XV SQUADRON RAF MILDENHALL Aircraft letters "LS" [/underlined]
[underlined] 28/11/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 11 (Night time). Target [underlined] NEUSS (DUSSELDORF) [/underlined]
Aircraft – HK 695 Code "V". Pilot – Wing Commander N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 Hours 40 Minutes
145 Lancasters of 3 Group & 8 of 1 Group. GH Bombing attack. Modest damage.
No losses.
[underlined] 05/12/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 12 (Daylight). Target [underlined] SCHWAMMENAUEL DAM [/underlined]
Aircraft – ME 844 Code "C. Pilot – Wing Commander N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 Hours 40 Minutes
MASTER BOMBER – 56 Lancasters of 3 Group attempt to "Blow up" this Dam on river ROER to help American Army. Target covered in cloud. Only 2 aircraft bombed. No losses.
[underlined] 06/12/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 13 (Night time) Target [underlined] LEUNA MERSEBURG [/underlined] (Near LEIPZIG)
Aircraft – NG 357 Code "K" Pilot – Flt. Lt. Percy
Flying Time – 7 Hours 20 Minutes
475 Lancasters bombed Oil Target in Eastern Germany, 500 miles from UK. Cloud cover but considerable damage to the synthetic oil plant. 5 aircraft lost
[underlined] 08/12/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 14 (Daylight). Target [underlined] DUISBURG [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 357 Code "K". Pilot – Flt. Lt. Percy
Flying Time – 4 Hours 20 Minutes
163 Lancasters of 3 Group bombed on GH through cloud on railway yards. Good results.
No losses.
[underlined] 14/12/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 15 (Night time). Target [underlined] MINING KATTEGAT [/underlined] (off KULLEN POINT)
Aircraft – NG 357 Code "K". Pilot – Flt. Lt. Percy
Flying Time – 7 Hours (Landed LOSSIEMOUTH)
30 Lancasters & 9 Halifax. Mines accurately laid. (see H2S photo) Diverted to Lossiemouth on return. No losses.
[underlined] 28/12//1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 16 (Daylight). Target [underlined] COLOGNE [/underlined] (GREMBERG)
Aircraft – HK 693 Code "B". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 4 Hours 50 Minutes
167 Lancasters of 3 Group. Marshalling yards. Accurate bombing. No losses
[underlined] 01/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 17 (Night time). Target [underlined] VOHWINKEL [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 6 Hours 5 Minutes
146 Lancasters of 3 Group. Successful attack on railway yards. 1 aircraft lost
[underlined] 03/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 18 (Daytime). Target [underlined] DORTMUND [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 4 Hours 45 Minutes
99 Lancasters of 3 group. GH attacks through cloud on Coking plant (HANSA). Accurate bombing. 1 aircraft lost.
[underlined] 07-08/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 19 (Night time). Target [underlined] MUNICH [/underlined]
Aircraft – HK 618 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 7 Hours 45 Minutes
645 Lancasters from 1,3, 5, 6 & 8 Groups – Very successful raid causing severe damage (see Terry's book – "Fliegeralarm" – Luftangriffe auf München 1940-1945)
11 aircraft lost and 4 crash in France
[underlined] 13/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 20 (Daylight). Target [underlined] SAARBRUCKENt [/underlined][sic]
Aircraft – ME 849 Code "L". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 6 Hours 20 Minutes
158 Lancasters of 3 Group attack Railway yards. Accurate but some overshooting
Divert to Predannack on return because of bad weather at base.
1 Aircraft lost
48
[page break]
[underlined] 16-17/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 21 (Night time). Target [underlined] WANNE EICKEL [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 5 Hours 5 Minutes
138 Lancasters of 3 Group attack Benzol plant. 1 Aircraft lost
[underlined] 23/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 22 (Daylight). Target [underlined] COLOGNE [/underlined] (GREMBERG)
Aircraft – PD 234 Code "E". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 5 Hours 55 Minutes
153 Lancasters from 3 Group attack Railway Yards. Good Visibility – Results variable
3 aircraft lost and 1 crashed in France
[underlined] 09/02/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 23 (Night time). Target [underlined] HOHENBUDBERG (DUISBERG KREFELD) [/underlined]
Aircraft – PD 234 Code "E". Pilot – Wing Commander N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 5 Hours 10 Minutes
151 Lancasters from 3 Group attack Railway Yards. 2 Lancasters lost
[underlined] 19/02/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 24 (Daylight). Target [underlined] WESEL [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 444 Code "Y". Pilot – Wing Commander N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 5 Hours 15 Minutes
168 Lancasters from 3 Group. Good attack with best results around railway area
Leading Aircraft for whole of 3 Group. (I navigated and everyone else followed me!)
1 Lancaster lost
[underlined] 02/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 25 (Daylight). Target [underlined] COLOGNE [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 5 Hours 30 Minutes
858 Aircraft – 155 Lancasters from 3 Group. Only 15 aircraft from 3 Group bombed because of GH failure. All other bombing highly destructive. Cologne captured by the Americans 4 days later. 6 Lancasters lost
[underlined] 04/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 26 (Daylight). Target [underlined] WANNE EINCKEL [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 4 Hours 55 Minutes
128 Lancasters from 3 Group bombed on GH. No losses.
[underlined] 05/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 27 (Daylight). Target [underlined] GELSENKIRCHEN [/underlines]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 5 Hours 35 Minutes
170 Lancasters from 3 Group. Leading Aircraft for whole of 3 Group.
1 Lancaster lost
[underlined] 11/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 28 (Daylight). Target [underlined] ESSEN [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 6 Hours 5 Minutes
1079 Aircraft – 750 Lancasters. Attack accurate and Essen paralysed.
Leading aircraft for 32 Base. 3 Lancasters lost
[underlined] 22/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 29 (Daylight). Target [underlined] BOCHULT [/underlined]
Aircraft – PA 235 Code "E". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 5 Hours 15 Minutes
100 Lancasters from 3 Group. Leading aircraft for Squadron. Town seen to be on fire.
No losses
[underlined] 23/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 30 (Daylight). Target [underlined] WESEL [/underlined]
Aircraft – PA 235 Code "E". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 4 Hours 35 Minutes
Special GH attack to support Rhine crossing. 80 Lancasters from 3 Group.
Signal from General Eisenhower congratulating the crews concerned on their very accurate bombing.
[underlined] 29/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 31 (Daylight). Target [underlined] HALLENDORF [/underlined] (SALZGITTER)
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 7 Hours 5 Minutes
130 Lancasters from 3 Group. Attack on Benzol plant using GH. Leading aircraft for Squadron.
No losses
[underlined] 9-10/04/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 32 (Night time). Target [underlined] KIEL BAY [/underlined] – MINING
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 6 Hours 10 Minutes
70 Lancasters. No loss on Mining but 4 lost on main raid on Kiel (Very accurate - Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer hit and capsized. Admiral Hipper Emden badly damaged.)
49
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[underlined] 14//04/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 33 (Night time). Target [underlined] POTSDAM [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 8 Hours 35 Minutes
500 Lancasters. Attack successful and severe damage caused
1 Lancaster lost to night fighter.
Tour completed because the tour requirement was reduced from 40 to 30 whilst we were over Potsdam.
References Air 27 1352 (218 Sqn)
Air 27 204 & 205 (XV Sqn)
[photograph]
End of Tour, Mildenhall, April 1945
Lancaster "H" Howe, NG538
L-R: P/O Johnny Forster (flight engineer), Flt Sgt Jimmy Bourke (mid-upper gunner),
Ft Sgt 'Nobby' Clarke (rear gunner), Sqn Ldr Pat "Tojo" Percy (pilot), Flt Sgt Dennis "Napper" Evans (wireless op.)
F/O Tom Butler (bomb aimer), F/O Dennis Moore (navigator)
[photograph)
End of Tour, Mildenhall, April 1945
Lancaster "H" Howe, NG538
Squadron Leader Percy & Crew with ground crew
50
[page break]
1945 Appendix II
[underlined] Lancaster NG 358 Mark B1. XV Squadron (15) Coded LS-H [/underlined]
This aircraft was built by Armstrong Whitworth at their Baginton factory and was one of 400 delivered to the RAF between July 1944 & February 1945. The previous LS-H was HK 648 and NG 358 first appeared on the squadron in Mid-December 1944. It was finally 'Struck off charge' on 19/10/1945
[photograph]
Dates actually flown in this aircraft:
30/12/1944 Day 1450 'GH' Bombing Exercise
1-2/01/1945 Night 1610 6.05 VOHWINKEL 146 a/c, 3 missing
03/01/1945 Day 1250 4.45 DORTMUND 50 a/c
16-17/01/1945 Night 2307 5.05 WANNE EINCKEL 138 a/c, 1 missing
27/01/1945 Day 1005 Air Test
02/03/1945 Day 1200 5.30 KÖLN Led 32 BASE, 531 a/c, 6 missing
04/03/1945 Day 0946 4.45 WANNE EINCKEL 128 a/c
05/03/1945 Day 0940 5.35 GELSENKIRCHEN Led 3 Group, 170 a/c, 1 missing
11/03/1945 Day 1200 6.05 ESSEN Led 32 BASE, 750 a/c, 3 missing
29/03/1945 Day 1230 7.05 HALLENDORF Led SQUADRON, 130 a/c
09-10/04/1945 Night 2000 6.10 KIEL BAY MINING 70 a/c
14-15/04/1945 Night 1825 8.55 BERLIN (POTSDAM) 500 a/c, 2 missing
The crew of 'H' – 'HOWE' on the above flights was:
Pilot Squadron Leader Pat Percy
Navigator Flying Officer Dennis Moore
Bomb Aimer Flying Officer Tom Butler (Canadian)
F/Engineer Pilot Officer Johnnie Forster
Wireless Op. F/Sgt. Dennis Evans
Mid Upper F/Sgt. Jimmy Bourke
Rear Gunner F/Sgt. Nobby Clarke
Other 'operations' in other aircraft were flown with Wing Commander N.G. Macfarlane as Pilot. (see note below)
51
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[underlined] Explanations: [/underlined]
Bomber Command was split into GROUPS (mainly 3 & 5 Group) – each Group split into 3 BASES and each Base comprised 2 or 3 airfields on which there were usually 2 SQUADRONS. Each Squadron was normally split in two FLIGHTS although sometimes they had three. 3 Group Base were Nos. 31; 32 & 33. 31 Base comprised STRADISHALL & WRATTING COMMON plus one other; 32 Base comprised MILDENHALL, LAKENHEATH & METHWOLD. 33 Base comprised WATERBEACH, WITCHFORD & MEPAL. The other Squadron at MILDENHALL at this time was No 622 (Australian). Each Squadron normally had 24 aircraft and a 'MAXIMUM EFFORT' was achieved when all of them flew on an OPERATION ('op').
All daylight trips were in tight FORMATION and Bombing was done on 'GH' – which was operated by the navigator who actually 'pressed the button'. The Bombing Leaders were distinguished by the double yellow bars on the tailfin/rudder. All others in the flight bombed on the Leader. A limited number of Squadrons & Aircraft in No 3 Group were fitted with this equipment, which was extremely accurate.
Note. Mac (or Nigel, as I now am allowed to call him) lives in a retirement home near Capetown, South Africa. At the Mildenhall register meeting in May 1995 I was told he had died. The following day I was able to contact his son Ian (whom we had 'baby-sat') who is now a Harley Street Consultant and he put paid to this rumour.
Nigel & Margaret visited the UK June 2000 to celebrate their 60th Wedding Anniversary and Pam & I were invited to their Party. Not able to drive at the time so unable to go. Terry offered to pick him up and take him with us to Squadron 85th Birthday celebrations at Lossiemouth. Unfortunately he was not well enough so Terry & I went to Lossiemouth on our own.
1945 Appendix III
[italics] The Operational Sortie which the crew decided had turned me from being a "very Good" Navigator into an "ACE" Navigator. (Their words - not mine!!) [/italics]
An operational order was "posted" quite early in the morning of the 7th January 1945 and the fuel load was 2154 gallons (the maximum) so we all knew that we were in for a long haul. At the pre-flight briefing Munich was announced as the target and we were allocated HK618 "G" (George) with Squadron Leader Percy as pilot. We learned later that 645 aircraft from 1;3;5;6 and 8 Groups loaded with 1 x 4000 pounder (Cookie) and clusters of incendiaries, carried out a very successful bombing raid causing very severe damage. (See photos in Terry's book). A total of 11 aircraft were lost and another 4 crashed in France (nearly 3%, which was quite high at this time).
Getting airborne at 1830, the flight out was quite uneventful from a navigational point of view with 'Gee' working well and covering a good way down into France. Having bombed on a well lit (burning) target, the Alps were now the only visible landmarks and, at the appropriate time, we turned onto a northerly heading based on the wind component calculated on the way down across France. We kept going on this heading, expecting to pick up something to give us a 'fix' but unfortunately nothing was forthcoming, and at the ETA at the French coast I asked if any of the crew could see anything. Nobody else could see through the cloud but the rear gunner (who had a good downward view) finally called to say that we had just passed over a 'Pundit' flashing what turned out to be Manston!! Quickly turning on the IFF (identifying friend not foe) and crossing the Thames estuary, a quick calculation, the message" Maintain heading – ETA base in 17 minutes" was passed to the pilot. EXACTLY 17 minutes later the pilot reported "overhead base – joining circuit. Well done Navigator" Thus ended a 7hour 45 minute flight and the very tired but elated crew gathered in the briefing room to be met, as usual, by the padre dishing out the rum ration for those that wanted it. I was quite happy to have my share while we were being de-briefed, with a crew enthusing over my marvellous navigation (all the way back from the south of France without having to change heading once!!) and then off to the quarters behind the Mess to a well earned sleep.
What was never mentioned to anyone – and the crew in particular – was that, had the heading been just ONE degree to starboard, we would have gone sailing – literally – up the north sea and, because of the cloud cover, not know why we never made it back to base – if we had survived the ditching in the dark and subsequent days adrift in the North Sea – that is!!!
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1945 Appendix IV
[underlined] Dakota Flights (as Navigator) July 1945 – May 1946 [/underlined]
109 OTU Crosby on Eden
08/07/1945 – 23/07/1945 DAY 18.55, NIGHT 7.45
PILOTS: Flt/Lt Mason & Flt/Lt Samuael
Aircraft registrations: FZ609 KG502 KG619 KG658 KG664 KG666
B Flight 1383T/C.U
26/07/1945 – 27/08/1945 DAY 49.55, NIGHT 26.15
PILOTS: P/O Zygnerski & Flt/Lt Herringe
Aircraft registrations: FL652 KG373 KG392 KG638 KG726 KG644 KG649 KG657 KG726
52 Squadron RAF DUM-DUM CALCUTTA
01/12/1945 – 08/05/1946 DAY 345.25, NIGHT 13.50
PILOTS: Mainly F/O Harris but also Flt/Lt Ruddle, F/O Lofting, Flt/Lt Earwalker & F/O MacArthur
Route flying from Calcutta to Bangkok, Saigon (Ho Chi Minh), Hong Kong, sometimes calling into Chittagong, Meiktila, Hmawbi, Rangoon, Canton
Aircraft registrations:
FL507 FL612 KG212 KG502 KG573 KG923
KJ813 KJ814 KJ820 KJ904 KJ963 KK190
KN211 KN219 KN231 KN239 KN240 KN299
KN301 KN308 KN341 KL507 KN534 KN573
KN600 KN604 KN630 KN633 KP211
Total Hours: DAY 413.35 NIGHT 47.10
Appendix 1949
[underlined] "Lancastrian" G – AGWI/1281/TX276/111 [/underlined]
I flew 13 Sorties as Navigator in this Aircraft on the Berlin Airlift.
Registered 28/11/1945 to Ministry of Aircraft Production.
Certificate of Airworthiness No: 7283 24/01/1946.
Delivered to BSAA (British South American Airways) Heathrow 27/01/1946
Named 'Star Land'
Registered to Ministry of Civil Aviation 16/08/1948.
Sold to Flight Refuelling Ltd. 16/01/1949 and Registered to them 18/01/1949.
Allotted Fleet No. 'Tanker 26' and flew [underlined] 226 [/underlined] Sorties on Berlin Airlift
Scrapped at Tarrant Ruston 26/09/1951.
Berlin Airlift
[logo] Berlin Airlift [emblem]
[drawing]
[inserted] TX 276/1281 [/inserted]
AVRO LANCASTRIAN – FLIGHT REFUELLING LTD
47403
On 23 June 1948, the Soviet forces occupying the eastern part of Germany blockaded all rail, road and waterway supply routes from the Allied Western Occupation Zones in Berlin. With less than one month’s supply of food and fuel, the prospects for the two and a half million Berliners looked bleak. Only three severely restricted air routes remained as a lifeline between the besieged city and the western world. The Allies responded immediately with a miracle of logistics – The Berlin Airlift. Codenamed Operation Vittles by the USAF, and Operation Plainfare by the RAF, over a period of 11 months Allied aircraft made thousands of flights into the cramped airspace of Berlin and succeeded in supplying everything the city needed. Every available aircraft from RAF Transport Command was in service, as well as hundreds of USAF aircraft and even civil charter firms were called upon to supplement the effort. The operation became so skilled that the Soviet Command eventually realised that they had failed and on 12 May 1949 the blockade was finally lifted.
Avro Lancastrian G-AGWI represents an aircraft which was originally delivered to British South American Airways (BSAA) at Heathrow in January 1946. The aircraft was registered to the Ministry of Civil Aviation for a short period in 1948 before being sold to Flight Refuelling in January 1949. The aircraft was then allotted fleet no. Tanker 26 and flew 226 sorties on the Berlin Airlift.
[inserted] I FLEW IN 13 OF THEM [/inserted] [diagram]
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Dennis Moore Autobiography
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Dennis Moore's autobiography, compiled and edited by his son, Terry Moore.
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Dennis Moore
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53 typed sheets
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eng
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BMooreDMooreDv1
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Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sue Smith
12 OTU
15 Squadron
1653 HCU
218 Squadron
3 Group
5 Group
52 Squadron
6 Group
8 Group
82 Squadron
90 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
air gunner
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
arts and crafts
bomb aimer
C-47
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Service Order
entertainment
flight engineer
Gee
ground crew
H2S
Halifax
Hampden
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancastrian
Lincoln
Master Bomber
memorial
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mine laying
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Nissen hut
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