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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/692/9237/ABarnesR170803.1.mp3
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Title
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Barnes, Robert
R Barnes
Description
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Two oral history interviews with Robert Barnes (b. 1923) He flew operations as a flight engineer with 50 Squadron.
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2 Interviews
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-08-03
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Barnes, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: Right. So, I’ll just introduce myself. So, this is David Kavanagh interviewing Bob Barnes at his home on August the 3rd 2017. So, if I just put that down there.
RB: Right.
DK: I might occasionally look at it. It’s just to make sure it’s working.
RB: Yeah [laughs]
DK: So, what, what I wanted to ask you first of all was —
RB: Sorry. If I have, if you —
DK: No, that’s ok.
RB: If I don’t hear you properly it’s because I’m hearing a bit —
DK: Ok. Ok. What, what I wanted to ask first was what were you doing before the war?
RB: Well, I was in the last year at school and living in London. We were evacuated to Duke of Sutherland’s place near Guildford.
DK: Right.
RB: Thirty of us. They thought, they were expecting girls but but anyway we had the year and I came back to London. And I joined the ARP as a messenger and I did about a year on that. And then the Home Guard. Both the infantry and rocket sites.
DK: Right. Do you know how old you would have been then?
RB: Well, I left school at sixteen. And so, sixteen to seventeen I went to a Government Training Centre and was on engineering. And then I did a year or so with a machine tool firm who were renovating machine tools. And then 19 — [pause] I actually volunteered in 1943.
DK: Right. Ok.
RB: And I went to Cardington for an initial test.
DK: Was, was there any reason why you chose the RAF? Was there any particular reason?
RB: Well —
DK: Rather than the Army or Navy.
RB: No. The only reason, all my friends had gone in to service. Some had been lost. And I thought, well the Air Force, to be honest I was in a Reserved Occupation and you only had three places to go. As an artificer in the Navy. Which meant below decks.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Which I didn’t fancy. Or down in the mines which I didn’t fancy that either.
DK: No.
RB: So, just left the Air Force. But just really all my friends had gone in the services and I thought it was time I went. Signed on in, at Lord’s Cricket Ground and we had about six weeks in Regent’s Park area. Billeted in flats. We had our meals in the Zoo. And then I had six months, I think it was six months at Torquay.
DK: Right.
RB: And then on to St Athan for the engineering course. And then ’44, I went to Swinderby on the initial introduction to flying. And we were on Stirlings for that.
DK: Right. Had you met your crew at this point?
RB: No. I hadn’t got, I was just coming to that.
DK: Oh. Ok. Sorry.
RB: No. They allocated the engineers to the crew at Swinderby.
DK: Right. Ok.
RB: And —
DK: So, they’d already crewed up then.
RB: That’s right. Yes. And then we went over to — I forget the name now. Over for the transfer to Lancasters.
DK: Right. Was that the Lancaster Finishing School?
RB: More or less. Yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
RB: And I think, I forget how long I was there but then we went to, to Skellingthorpe.
DK: Right. Just taking you back a bit. What did you think of the Stirlings as an aeroplane?
RB: Well, I suppose it’s like every. With the Lancaster I was happy. I’d go anywhere in that. And I suppose to anyone who flew in Stirlings they’d have the same attitude. Although it was a bit more vulnerable than —
DK: Yeah.
RB: And my main memory of the Stirling was if we went to a height where it was cold we had pipes with heating coming through and sticking them down your jacket [laughs] But anyway that was the time when D-Day was going.
DK: Right.
RB: And then from Swinderby we went. I went to Skellingthorpe and stayed there ‘til the end of the war.
DK: And that was with 50 Squadron.
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And our skipper was a flight lieutenant in [pause] He was a flight commander at the time and then he became CO. And of course as a crew we didn’t fly all that many operations. We did eighteen together.
DK: Right.
RB: But if someone was ill on another crew then we did the extra trips.
DK: Can you remember the pilot’s name?
RB: Yes. He was Flight Lieutenant Flint when I, when I joined. And then he went to wing commander and he became CO of the squadron.
DK: So, he was the CO of 50 Squadron.
RB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Wing Commander Flint.
RB: Yes.
DK: Oh right. What was he —
RB: I think he was well known although I didn’t realise at the time. He had a George Cross for rescuing a navigator in a Blenheim, I think it was.
DK: That’s what I thought. Yeah. I recognised the name when you said.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
RB: And —
DK: What was he like then?
RB: Sorry?
DK: What was he like?
RB: Well, he wasn’t a person who you made friends with but he was fair. And strict as far as the flying went.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And as a crew we worked pretty well worked together. We were a bit of an odd crowd. One from, the navigator was from Liverpool.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember — can you remember the crew’s name? The navigator’s name.
RB: MacLeod.
DK: MacLeod. Yeah.
RB: Then the two gunners. Tombs and Johnson.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Tombs was a Cockney and I think Johnson came from the Midlands somewhere. And the bomb aimer. He was also from the Midlands.
DK: Right.
RB: He was another Johnson, I think. And myself.
DK: Right. And the wireless operator. Can you remember?
RB: The wireless operator. Yeah. [pause] I can’t remember at the moment. But it might come back as we go through.
DK: Ok. So, so you got on well as a crew then did you?
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah. Yes. The —
DK: Did you, even though he was the CO of the squadron did you socialise at all?
RB: Various. He didn’t socialise with us but on occasions when we were stood down we’d perhaps go in to Nottingham and have a night out.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And that would be the rest of the crew. Not, not the navigator. But the bomb aimer and the gunners.
DK: So, get — could you just talk a little bit about what your role was as the flight engineer? What your job was?
RB: Well, the training they gave us at St Athan was completely new to me because I knew nothing about engines and that was the main part of the course. But in the air we were responsible for the fuel side and according to the book, in the handbook that we got we were supposed to know everything about the, all the aircraft.
DK: Right.
RB: But I, I don’t think we learned all that [laughs]
DK: But you, you knew the important part about the engines and the fuel.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And watching the instruments. See. Keep an eye on them. Make sure they were going alright. We had one occasion when we were running up for, in the morning before going on a raid. And we’d started up the engines. And of course I was looking at the instruments and then I suddenly looked downstairs and the ground crew was jumping up and down. And we’d got steam up from a valve for the coolant that had got stuck.
DK: Right.
RB: So we had to shut that down. But apart from that they [pause] we didn’t really have much problem with the aircraft itself. The ground crew did a good job.
DK: Did you still go on that operation with the coolant problem?
RB: With the —
DK: The coolant.
RB: Oh No.
DK: No.
RB: No. They settled that in the —
DK: It wasn’t fixed for you to then take-off.
RB: No.
DK: No. No.
RB: No. We were ok. And then that more or less happened all the way through. The only time that [pause] I went on a briefing side for one operation and I went out to the runway where they, where they had the waving the aircraft off. And we had the 61 Squadron. One of their aircraft it went off and then it circled around and for some reason something had gone wrong and they landed down. Everything went up. The only, the rear gunner was left on the edge of the crater. So, overall my view of the operations was that it was a bit of a lottery whether you survived or not.
DK: So how many operations in total did you fly?
RB: Eighteen.
DK: Eighteen. Can you remember any of the targets?
RB: The — ?
DK: The targets.
RB: Well, that was a problem really in those days because bombing was not an accurate thing. They’d mark the site.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And if the flares got put out or the wind took them away so you had a creep affect. And whether you hit the actual target or not was a —
DK: No.
RB: You wouldn’t know.
DK: Were most of your operations in daylight or, or night time?
RB: I’ve got a logbook here.
DK: Ah. You’ve got the logbook.
[pause]
RB: That’s all the training.
DK: Right. That’s all — so, you were with 1660 Conversion Unit then.
RB: Sorry?
DK: 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit.
RB: Yes.
DK: 1660.
RB: Yes. Oh sorry.
DK: So, that’s at Swinderby.
RB: Syerston.
DK: Syerston.
RB: Swinderby then Syerston.
DK: Right. Ok. So, Syerston and then Swinderby.
RB: Yes.
DK: Right. Ok. So, there’s your pilot there then. Flint.
RB: Yes.
DK: Flight lieutenant then.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So in green is the war operations then. So, red. Red’s at night isn’t it? And green —
RB: That’s night.
DK: Red’s night and green is daylight.
RB: That’s daylight.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yes.
DK: So, that’s 19th July ‘44. That’s in France. Creil. C R E I L. That says PFF Pathfinder Force poor.
RB: [laughs] I’ll just get my other glasses.
DK: Ok.
[pause]
RB: Getting blind as well as deaf.
DK: I can, I can read it to you. It’s ok. So, just going through this then we’ve got 19th of July 1944.
RB: Yes.
DK: War operations. And it’s a flying bomb dump near to Creil in France. And it says PFF poor. So, that’s Pathfinder Force poor.
RB: Yes. That’s, that was the, I forget what that was now. PFF. I think that was to do with if enemy aircraft were around.
DK: Right. Was that the Pathfinder Force?
RB: Sorry?
DK: Was that the Pathfinder Force?
RB: The — ?
DK: Pathfinder Force.
RB: I can’t remember now.
DK: You can’t remember. I think it probably is. So, then you’ve got —
RB: Let’s see where that was, shall we?
DK: So you’ve got PFF poor there but the next raid PFF good. I think that’s, that is the Pathfinder Force.
RB: Flying bomb.
DK: Yeah.
RB: That might be the Pathfinders. I’m sure. Yes. Yes.
DK: The Pathfinder. Yes. Yes.
RB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DK: That’s saying PFF is poor.
RB: Yeah.
DK: PFF good on that one.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So the next raid is 20th July ’44 and it’s the railway marshalling yards in Belgium.
RB: Yes.
DK: PFF good. And then July the 24th.
RB: St Nazaire.
DK: St Nazaire. Oil storage dumps. July the 25th St Cyr Airfield. That’s C Y R.
RB: St Cyr. Versailles.
DK: Yeah. Versailles. Cyr. St Cyr Airfield. July 26th — that’s the railway junction and marshalling yards in France.
RB: Yes.
DK: And the 31st of July war operations.
RB: Reims.
DK: Reims. Reims. Yeah. Good results it says.
RB: Yes.
DK: And carrying on. So August the 16th —
RB: Yes. Stettin.
DK: Stettin. Built up area. So, August the 19th the Pallice. La Pallice.
RB: Oil storage.
DK: Oil storage. And then August the 31st — flying bomb dump again.
RB: I can’t remember where that place was.
DK: All on the French coast somewhere. For the, for the recording —
RB: Yes.
DK: I’m not going to try and pronounce this but I’ll spell it it’s B E R G E N E U S E. That’s somewhere in France.
RB: Yes.
DK: So, you landed back at Ford then. You didn’t get back to base.
RB: Yes. Well, on that operation we had the wing commander’s bomb aimer with us. And we were just coming away from that site and there was a single shot and as luck would have it the bomb aimer caught shrapnel in his head. And that’s why we landed at Ford.
DK: Was it, was he ok?
RB: Well, I didn’t keep up in touch with him. It’s like everything else. People were injured or went on a flight. Once they’d gone.
DK: That’s it.
RB: That was it.
DK: So, you got a replacement bomb aimer presumably.
RB: Well, that was on the way home fortunately.
DK: Right. Ok. Ok. So, then 24th of September 1944. Target — defensive enemy positions at Calais.
RB: Yes.
DK: And that time you were diverted back to Westcott.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So then, 6th of October. Target — Bremen.
RB: Bremen.
DK: Built up area. Yeah. And then the 1st of November. Target — Hamburg. Synthetic oil plants.
RB: Yes.
DK: Then 4th of December. Heilbronn. That’s H E I L.
RB: Heilbronn. Yeah.
DK: H E I L B R O N N. Heilbronn. So, that was the area bombing then. The target area. Then 30th of December —
RB: Yes.
DK: That’s, that’s Germany again isn’t it?
RB: That was when the troops were advancing on.
DK: I’ll spell this for the benefit of the recording. It’s H O U F F A L I Z E.
RB: I think on that because the troops, they weren’t sure where the troops were.
DK: Yeah.
RB: We, we went, we were briefed for the operation and then it was called off. We then had breakfast. Bacon and egg. Brought on again. Back to the mess for another meal.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And this happened three times [laughs]
DK: You had three breakfasts.
RB: Yeah. We were egg bound by that time.
DK: So, so the target was German troops in salient.
RB: Yes.
DK: So it was tactical bombing of the German troops.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And just here it says here on the 30th of December operation, it says severe icing conditions.
RB: Yes.
DK: So, did that cause any problems to your aircraft?
RB: Not really. We had the heating system which helped to get rid of it. But you can hear the bits flaking off.
DK: And then 4th of January 1945 war operations. Target — Royan. R O Y A N. South West France. German troop concentrations. And then again, 6th of January German troop concentrations in the salient. They were being hammered a bit weren’t they? So, 13th of January 1945 — Politz. P O L I T Z. Oil refineries. 14th of January — Marsberg. Oil refineries again.
RB: Yeah. They were two long flights.
DK: Politz is in Poland isn’t it? I think.
RB: Sorry?
DK: Politz. Isn’t it in Poland?
RB: I’m not sure exactly where but it was certainly —
DK: Well, in the east. Yeah.
RB: It was in the east.
DK: Yeah.
RB: In the eastern area.
DK: And then on the so that’s the 13th to Politz and then the 14th to Marsberg
RB: Yes. Merseburg.
DK: Merseburg. Sorry. Merseburg. Merseburg. And it mentions here concentrated flak. Diverted.
RB: On that one we were Window crew. So, you went around once dropping the Window and then came back to do the second trip.
DK: So, you dropped, so you dropped your bombs on the second time around?
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: So, you had to go over the target twice?
RB: Yes. And then with two long trips.
DK: Yeah. Well the one on the 13th of January. That’s eleven hours five minutes. And the one on the 14th of January that’s ten hours [pause] So, I think that’s all of your operations there, isn’t it?
RB: There was bringing ex-prisoners back.
DK: So, that was your last operation there then. So, then you went on to Operation Exodus.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Do you, do you remember picking up the Prisoners of War?
RB: On that one.
DK: Yeah. The 26th of April 1945.
RB: That one we were actually service crew.
DK: Right.
RB: So we didn’t bring anybody back on that one. But on this one we brought.
DK: So, there’s another trip.
RB: Yes.
DK: Brussels again.
RB: So, we stayed the night at —
DK: Yeah.
RB: Westcott.
DK: So, on the 26th of April ’45 it actually says you returned with twenty four ex-POWs. So, what sort of states were they in?
RB: Well, they were very quiet. We didn’t really have a lot to do with them. We just kept in touch with them. Seeing they were alright on the flight. But they were quiet on the main.
DK: Yeah. So another Exodus then on the 6th of May. So, at this point the war has ended then.
RB: Yes.
DK: You did a trip to Italy then after the war has ended.
RB: Yeah. That was to bring more [pause] more troops back.
DK: Troops back. Yeah. That was Operation Dodge, I think, wasn’t it? Bringing the army —
RB: Yeah.
DK: Back from Italy. And then that’s it. So, that was your last operation here. Well, not operation. Your last flight I should say. 28th August 1945. So, did —
RB: We had, that was one of the few occasions when we had any problem with the aircraft. The wireless operator had smoke coming from his area.
DK: Oh right.
RB: And we thought we were going to have two or three days in Pomigliano.
DK: Right.
RB: But they did the dirty on us and got it ready [laughs]
DK: Would you have liked to have stayed a bit longer then?
RB: Yeah. Well, we went to [pause] because we were near Sorrento.
DK: Right.
RB: And we hitchhiked to a junction. And then we got another hitch to Sorrento. We had a meal there. And I, we had, we didn’t see a lot of Sorrento but the main thing there’s no sand there. It’s as a result of the Vesuvius eruption.
DK: Oh right. Ok. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
RB: And there was all dust really.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
RB: But —
DK: So that was on, that was on the 27th of July 1945.
RB: Yeah.
DK: And you come back from Italy then with twenty.
RB: Twenty persons.
DK: Twenty passengers. People on board.
RB: Ex-soldiers.
DK: So, they were soldiers.
RB: Yes.
DK: Coming back from Italy. Yeah.
RB: And I was with another pilot.
DK: Oh right. Yeah. So, that’s Flight Lieutenant Lundy. So had Flint left by this point then? Because you did the Exodus —
RB: Yes.
DK: Once with Flint there.
RB: Yes.
DK: But the Dodge flights were with Lundy.
RB: I’m just looking to see the other pilots we were with. There was one. That was another one.
DK: So you’ve got Groves. Flying Officer Syd Groves, Flying Officer Wells and Flying Officer Boyle.
RB: Boyle.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So it’s eighteen operations.
RB: I think the rest were — there was Flying Officer Wells.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Another. Another officer there.
DK: Arden. Yeah. So you flew with a number of different pilots.
RB: That’s right, yes.
DK: But did you have the same crew and just a different pilot or were they –
RB: Sorry?
DK: Did you have the same crew and a different pilot?
RB: That was at the beginning.
DK: Right.
RB: We did the twelve. Well, yeah the twelve operations with our own skipper.
DK: Right.
RB: And then the rest were these.
DK: Right. Ok.
RB: Odd ones.
DK: So, the first twelve were with Flint.
RB: Yes.
DK: And then the other six with various other pilots.
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: Were you, were you ever attacked by German fighters at all?
RB: Sorry?
DK: Were you ever attacked by German fighters?
RB: No. The only time when we took evasion action we weren’t sure. and we had the rear gunner — he gave a warning and we did a corkscrew. But apart from that — no.
DK: And can, can you recall the aircraft being hit by flak at all?
RB: Well, as I say there was that one when the bomb aimer got hit. And I myself because, because we had the blip. The [pause] on the windows we had the, where you could look out and see down.
DK: The blister.
RB: That’s right. Yes. And I was looking out at, we had some flak coming up and I felt a little something going, graze the head. But that was the nearest I had to anything to do with the flak.
DK: So you got hit by a little piece then.
RB: Just a little bit. Yeah. So I was dead lucky.
DK: Yeah.
RB: But after all it was all dead lucky really. I knew you had the — you were given a course in the briefing and you had to turn at certain points etcetera. And some pilots, they get ahead of time so they wanted to lose it and they’d be flying across the stream. No lights at all.
DK: No.
RB: So whether anybody got put down by a crash or —
DK: A collision.
RB: Collision. I don’t know. But it could have happened.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And then we had another. The aircraft had returned from the, from an operation and they still had their bombs on board. And the ground crew were putting this aircraft to bed and something happened. Up it went and the ground crew were killed. So you never knew from the time you took off ‘til the time you got back to bed.
DK: So, that happened at Skellingthorpe, did it?
RB: That’s right.
DK: The aircraft exploded.
RB: Yeah.
DK: And a number of the ground crew killed.
RB: That was the ground crew. Yeah.
DK: So how do, how do you look back in your time in the RAF now then?
RB: Well, it was certainly interesting. But I don’t think bombing as such is the beginning and end of a war. And there’s Johnny Johnson, the bomb aimer, he got the MBE or OBE.
DK: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
RB: And I thought myself because I’d had the clasp for Bomber Command and I thought that was a better idea because that was for operations.
DK: Yeah.
RB: But I always thought that the MBE and all those Birthday Honours were for services to civil life and of course I had reservations about —because things weren’t accurate. There were probably innocent people getting killed.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And, and there was an aspect that, well you got on with the job. You couldn’t do anything about that but at the same time I didn’t feel it was quite right. And having seen some of the bombing in London when we were living there and some of our friends got bombed. Nothing to do with the war. So from that aspect I’m not sure about bombing at all.
DK: No.
RB: But there we go. It was a job they wanted done.
DK: Yeah.
RB: You did it.
DK: So what was your career? Did you leave the RAF at that point then or —
RB: Yeah. I left. I only did four years. The two years of the war. That’s 1943 to ’45. And then I had a spell at Hereford. And then there was an admin course. And then I got posted to West Africa. And I was there for a year.
DK: Right.
RB: And when I came back the — that was demob time.
DK: And what, what was your career after that? What did you do?
RB: I’ve been a draughtsman for most of the time.
DK: Oh right.
RB: On the electrical side. I joined what was [Bridge Johnson Hewstone?] when I came back. No. I went to Napier’s first of all. And I was doing drawings for design etcetera. And it was then I went to Bridge Johnson Hewstone because Napier’s were getting rid of a few people.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And then I was with [pause] they, they moved to North London. And then they closed that down. They moved up to Blackpool.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And I was redundant then. I went to an electrical. Honeywell Electrics.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And then we were living in Hertfordshire at the time. And the [pause] then I got a job at Luton Airport with Hunting Aircraft.
DK: Oh right.
RB: And then they moved. So, and I finished up with the, an Italian firm Snamprogetti on, they were petrol installations.
DK: Right.
RB: And I was there and that was the finish of work in ‘87.
DK: So, just going back a little bit now if I may. I asked you about the Stirling.
RB: Yes.
DK: And what it was like to fly. What was the Lancaster like to fly?
RB: It was, I suppose one would say it almost flew itself. It wasn’t a comfortable position as far as the engineer was concerned but —
DK: Yes. As a flight engineer did you used to sit down or were you standing up?
RB: Yeah. We had a seat.
DK: Yeah.
RB: That you could fold up from the side.
DK: Right.
RB: You sat beside the —
DK: Pilot.
RB: The pilot yes. And you had the undercarriage and throttles which we helped with the take off.
DK: So, so when the pilot’s taking off then you’re helping with the throttles.
RB: Yes.
DK: And would you raise the undercarriage when you were up or would he do that?
RB: Yes. Yeah.
DK: You’d do that?
RB: As far as the throttles were concerned the pilot did the initial take-off thing, but you followed him up and when he got to the stage he was wanting full blast then you finished it through to the end.
DK: Right.
RB: And after that he, apart from synchronising the engines the pilot had control.
DK: Control. So on your right then you’ve got all the various dials.
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: And what are those dials telling you then? Are they —
RB: That was fuel contents. I forget what the rest did. That was the main thing that we were interested in.
DK: So your job is always to make sure you’ve got enough fuel to get back.
RB: Yes. Because you had to transfer fuel through from one tank to another at one stage.
DK: Right. And what about landing though, did you help the pilot land at all? Or —
RB: With the flaps. He’d call for the flaps and you’d operate that one. But apart from that the pilot was in control.
DK: Yeah. So, were your pilots very good then? Were they? Mostly?
RB: Well, some took a few chances I think [laughs] There was one, whether he actually did it or not they reckoned he did the loop the loop in the Lancaster but I take that with a bit of salt.
DK: You mentioned just before I put the recording on about somebody who was smoking.
RB: Yes. But that was the navigator but —
DK: Because you’re not allowed to smoke on the aircraft are you?
RB: Well, certainly not with our skipper.
DK: No.
RB: Well, it was so silly really. I mean, you had this main spar and the navigator sat just forward of it.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And there was a valve. So if you had a leakage goodness knows what would happen.
DK: Oh right. So the pilot smelled the smoke then did he?
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: Did he tell him off?
RB: Yes. And he was, he was another flight lieutenant.
DK: But I am correct in saying that regardless of rank the pilot is always in charge isn’t he?
RB: Well, yes. As far as we were concerned. Yes.
DK: Yeah. So you might have other crew that outranks him but the pilot’s still in charge.
RB: Could be. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
RB: But I don’t think it happened very often.
DK: So you were quite pleased with Flint then. You thought he was a good —
RB: Sorry?
DK: You thought that Flint — Flint was a good pilot.
RB: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah.
DK: I know who you mean. He’s the holder of the George Cross isn’t he?
RB: Sorry?
DK: He’s got the George Cross.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah. I only realised that [pause] I was looking at an Antiques Roadshow I think it was and they were at Lincoln Cathedral. And he was there with the, with these medals that he’d got.
DK: Oh right. So did you stay in touch with the crew after the war?
RB: No. The only, I did at one time. They, they were doing a Memorial at Skellingthorpe.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And I offered help but they didn’t take it up. And when they had the actual ceremony I went up there but I didn’t get involved in —
DK: Right.
RB: In anything, and I met the squadron navigator who had been on 61 Squadron as well as 50. And I saw the skipper. He was marching up with the crowd to a meal or something and I waved to him [laughs]
DK: That was —
RB: That was the only time that I actually saw him to speak to.
DK: So you did — that’s Flint you waved to.
RB: That was Flint. Yeah.
DK: Did he wave back?
RB: Yeah.
DK: Oh.
RB: Well, he shouted out, ‘Are you coming up for — ’
DK: Yeah.
RB: But I wasn’t sure whether I was going to make it or not.
DK: No.
RB: But the only other time I saw him, when they did the Memorial in Green Park in London.
DK: Right.
RB: I went up to that.
DK: Right.
RB: And it was quite a hot day and —
DK: Yeah. I was there.
RB: Were you?
DK: Yeah.
RB: And because I was a bit daft really. I didn’t have any hat or anything. And I I wasn’t feeling all that well and in the end so I didn’t get a chance to speak to him but —
DK: That was a shame.
RB: But he was in a invalid chair. A bit hunched up then. And I think it was either that year or the following year that he died. So I didn’t get in to speak to anybody after that.
DK: No. What did you think of the Memorial at Green Park?
RB: Well, it’s quite impressive.
DK: Are you pleased Bomber Command are being recognised now after all these years?
RB: Well, yes. It’s fair enough. I mean fifty five thousand people gone. And —
DK: But obviously there’s the two big Memorials now. There’s the Green Park one.
RB: Sorry?
DK: There’s two Memorials now. There’s Green Park and the new one in Lincoln.
RB: And the one in Lincoln. Yes. Yes. The one, the one I saw in Lincoln my friends were going up to Leeds and I said , ‘Would you give me a lift to somewhere near Lincoln and leave me there and you go on up.’ And they said, ‘No. We’re not going to do that. And they went up to the actual site.
DK: Oh right.
RB: Of course it wasn’t open to the public.
DK: Right. You saw it close up though did you?
RB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Well, it stands right out.
DK: Yeah.
RB: There’s a hotel nearby which —
DK: So, you haven’t actually been yet then to see it close up.
RB: No.
DK: Oh. I’ll have to try and arrange something then.
RB: Because they are running the tours for them.
DK: Running the tours.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: I might do that at some stage.
DK: Yeah. I’ll have a word with them when I get back. Because obviously we’ve got the main opening in April so hopefully you can come along to that.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah. Oh, ok then. I think that’s that’s everything. That’s been very interesting.
RB: No exciting moments.
DK: Trust me it’s all very exciting. I always like the logbooks. How do feel looking back at this thinking that was you?
RB: Sorry?
DK: How do you feel looking back in this logbook thinking that was, that was you? You did that.
RB: I’m sorry?
DK: How do you look feel looking in the logbook knowing that you did that?
RB: Well, I’m glad I did it. If only we sort of remember all the people who I’ve known and lost. And after all you’d have surviving these is a matter, as I say of luck. You can be on the last flight. Gone. Or you can come into the squadron, you do your training, go on the first flight.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Never got to know them.
DK: Yeah. Can I just —
RB: But I may have got some photos of the crew.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
[pause]
RB: Some misguided person sent me that book [laughs]
DK: For the recording it’s, “How To Fly a Second World War Heavy Bomber.”
RB: [laughs] It covers the Stirling, Halifax and —
DK: Yeah. As if you didn’t know.
[pause]
RB: Now, there’s the training flights.
DK: Right. Ok. You’ve got a photo here. It’s, so it’s A flight, 4 Squadron.
RB: That was at Torquay.
DK: Number 21 ITW.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Torquay.
[pause]
DK: Oh, there you are. RG Barnes.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So, you’re one two three four five six seven. One two three four five six seven. Is that you there?
RB: That’s it. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh right. Ok.
RB: That’s the crew.
DK: That is. Yeah.
RB: That’s skipper.
DK: So that’s, that’s your Lancaster there.
RB: That’s right. Near
DK: That’s T.
RB: Well, we flew in different aircraft all the time. There’s no one aircraft allocated.
DK: Because 50 Squadron’s codes were VN, weren’t they?
RB: Sorry?
DK: 50 Squadron’s code were VN.
RB: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yes.
DK: Oh wow.
RB: That’s another one.
DK: [unclear] That one. LN29. Oh, they’re great these photos are. So, can you, can you name the crew here?
RB: That’s the bomb aimer.
DK: Bomb aimer.
RB: Johnson.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Navigator — Macleod. That’s me.
DK: Right.
RB: Skipper.
DK: So, that’s, that’s Flint.
RB: Flint. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Tombs. That’s Johnson. And I still can’t remember the bomb aimer’s name.
DK: Or was that the wireless operator?
RB: Wireless operator.
DK: Ok.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Right. I know the [pause] Yeah. That’s, that’s T as well isn’t it? The reason I mention this is you know the Royal Air Force’s Lancaster that’s still flying?
RB: Yes.
DK: Well, they’ve painted it in new codes as 50 Squadron’s VN T. So, I think they’ve put it in the markings of your old aircraft.
RB: Oh.
DK: VN T. I’ll ask them.
RB: The only time I’ve had a [pause] we had a neighbour where I was living in, before coming here and he was an engineering NCO at Abingdon. And they were renovating a Lancaster there.
DK: Yeah. It would be the same one.
RB: So, and he said, ‘Would you like to come over and have a look?’ So —
DK: Did you go on board?
RB: [laughs] Yes.
DK: Right. What did you think seeing it again after all these years?
RB: Sorry?
DK: What did you think seeing it again after all these years?
RB: That brought back memories.
DK: Ok. I’ll turn this off now. I think we’ve said enough but thanks very much for your time on that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Robert Barnes. One
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarnesR170803, PBarnesR1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:49:29 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Barnes was working in a Reserved Occupation and so knew the only way he could join the RAF was to volunteer for aircrew. Before he volunteered he was also a member of the ARP and Home Guard. Robert trained as a flight engineer and was posted to 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe. Robert’s pilot was James Flint DFC GM DFM who became the Commanding Officer of 50 Squadron.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Merseburg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
50 Squadron
Air Raid Precautions
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Home Guard
Lancaster
memorial
navigator
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Athan
RAF Swinderby
RAF Torquay
Stirling
training
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/693/9240/PBarnettWE1701.1.jpg
7c713abda4f42e7135e9e634f0cfee24
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/693/9240/ABarnettWE170328.1.mp3
d760a82e33d828a0e77867096443f1cb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barnett, William Edwin
W E Barnett
Description
An account of the resource
an oral history interview with William Barnett (b. 1924). He grew up close to RAF Westcott and was nearly killed when a Lancaster crashed. He served in the Royal Navy 1946 - 1952.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Barnett, WE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 28th of March 2017 and we are in Woodham, near Aylesbury and I’m talking with William Edwin Barnett about his days in the war as a resident on the edge of the airfield at Westcott. So, Eddie, what are your earliest recollections of life?
WEB: Well, earliest recollections really is going to school at Westcott School and I went to, you know, walked to, down to the village and get educated there. And from there we were then transferred to Waddesdon and that’s where I finished my education, in Waddesdon. So that’s as far as that goes.
CB: And what did your father do?
WEB: My father was a signalman on the railway and he, all during the war, he was at Ashendon Junction signal box
CB: Right. So, which railway was that?
WEB: That was like, that’s, I don’t know the railway, that’s the Oxford, is that the Oxford one? It goes, anyway, it goes below Ashendon Hills
CB: Yes
WEB: And on its way to Oxford and [unclear] perhaps I used to come from there through to here, Woodham and
CB: Yeah
WEB: And on to, on to
CB: Went on to the mainline
WEB: Mainline and onto Quainton
CB: Yes
WEB: Joined up with that one
CB: Yes
WEB: That’s as far as I know
CB: Which was the London to Wragby line
WEB: Yeah
CB: Yeah. Ok. And at what age did you leave school, Eddie?
WEB: I left school at the age of fourteen
CB: Ok.
WEB: And I, my first job was William Fenimore’s farm, which is this one down here, down, where Mr. Adams lives now, that’s where I first had my working experience and we used to get up and do, had to get down to the farm around about six o’clock in the morning to do the milking and finish it around [unclear] and come home for breakfast then and then continue the rest of the day onto the farm.
CB: And what did you do on the farm the rest of the day?
WEB: Just general farm work, cleaning out the stables and cow [unclear] and things like that and do the milking and all that sort of thing
CB: So, was this an animal farm effectively or was it arable as well?
WEB: It was until the war years, when the war started it became any arable, the ploughing and things like that, that was the first time that I ploughed and done things like that
CB: So, what animals were there, apart from the cows?
WEB: The cow. Oh, all animals like, they didn’t have horse, they had one horse, I think, one horse, and that used to take the milk from the farm up to the [unclear] on it and the rest of the day it was in the stable and [unclear] things just, you done the normal things with haymaking and all that sort of thing and the hay was all stacked in ricks and these were cut and delivered to the [unclear] as they needed it. I think that covers that sort
CB: So, in the wintertime, there was enough hay, was there, to feed the cattle?
WEB: Yes, yes, that was enough, all stacked in what they called ricks, ricks we used to call them
CB: Could you describe a rick? What’s that like?
WEB: Well, it’s built from the ground upwards and it’s round about, what, [unclear] about the size, half the size of this building long and about the same width and you take it up, build it up and then you come, when you get to round about ten, fifteen feet from the ground, something like that, you [unclear] it in which to make the roof and then you thatch it to keep the rain out
CB: So, the thatching is done with
WEB: Straw
CB: Straw. Ok. Where did the straw come from?
WEB: Straw was with the, in the fields like, where you thrashed out the corn
CB: Yes
WEB: What you call it, you thrash the corn out and then the straw was what was left
CB: Yes. So, they grew corn effectively to create straw, did they, for thatching
Web: Well, it would, it got that and then of course corn was used cause poultry and that, they had in [unclear] farm in what they called them I forget now, it was a thing that you could move and the chickens were in there
CB: Yes
WEB: The chicken, with a run and it was moved gradually about the field the chickens to get fresh grain to be on. This was, and that was all done usually nothing to do with the men farmer, just usually done by the daughter, something like that which in down here was Carrie Fenimore, that was the daughter’s name and she looked after the chickens
CB: Did they have sheep as well?
WEB: They had sheep, a few sheep
CB: Any goats?
WEB: Not goats, never had goats
CB: Right. And what numbers of cattle were involved in this? Roughly
WEB: The actual, I think it was around about up to twenty-five in, for milking purposes and that sort of thing
CB: Right
WEB: And then they did, did they have beef cattle as well?
WEB: Pardon?
CB: Did they have beef cattle?
WEB: Yes
CB: Raised for meat?
WEB: Yes, well, yes, they, that in a was a sort of a separate place because they used to have some fields that were down here but over the railway, over the top of the railway were a few more fields and those cows used to run wild there and were just, you went up with a horse and a cow straw and hay and that and you used to feed them during the winter
CB: Right
WEB: With that and they used to fatten up there and then, when they were ready they send them off to market
CB: Did the farm have a tractor?
WEB: Well, he, well
CB: At that time when you joined?
WEB: Had a tractor of a, yes, they did have a tractor, yeah, but it was a big, powerful one and it was a steam driven one they had, like, it was more like a steam engine then with which they towed anything they wanted to tow
CB: So, could that go on the road?
WEB: That did go on the road, that steam engine
CB: So, would you call that a traction engine?
WEB: Traction engine? Yes
CB: Right
WEB: And that was, that was used to take [unclear] job to describe the farms because they had another load of field round on the [unclear] road
CB: Right
WEB: And things like that and all these [unclear] just wend round and some of the sons and daughters used to look after that
CB: Right. So, how many people were running the farm?
WEB: Well, the actual who, the head of the farm was Will, William Fenimore and then there was Algernon Fenimore, he used to run and what was the other one? Algernon and I forget the other man’s name but he was married to a schoolteacher, now I can’t think of his name now but
CB: So you were supporting the family effectively. Were there other farm workers in addition to you?
WEB: Oh, there was, yes, there was
CB: How many?
WEB: Other people, was Leslie Jones and he was a real farm worker, well, he used to do that plus he used to look after me
CB: He looked after the animals
WEB: He looked after the hedging, and hedge cut
CB: Oh yes
WEB: Anything like that, he’d step in and do that sort of thing
CB: Was there a lot of hedging, hedge cutting in those days?
WEB: Only when it was necessary and he’d done, it wasn’t done on a regular basis in this day that was done very occasionally
CB: So, you were born in 1924 and you joined at fourteen, so that’s 1938, what do you remember of the next year, when the war started, in September 1939?
WEB: What do I remember? Not very much mainly actually [unclear] it was, the thing was there and that had to be dealt with I presume but it did make differences to us because we, for instance we had to join the home guard that was, if you couldn’t join, if, what I mean to say is if you was in a reserved occupation, let’s put it that way, you were not called up to do military service
CB: Right
WEB: As it goes but you were conscripted into the home guard and you’d done military training [unclear] and one odd day in the week and at no time, no time when you was later on you were let, we had to patrol the A41 of [unclear] and [unclear] you have done that for, would say, from midnight till four, and then from four till you went, four, that was, four would be the last watch, and you then, from then on you went to work so what you done, what you’re trying to do is to get you the end and the beginning of the day, merge into one so you could do the job, then go home and have your breakfast and then carry on working for the rest of the day. Does that make any sense to you?
CB: It does, yes. So, you were on four till eight, were you, and then had your breakfast
WEB: Yeah
CB: Ok. And what was the watch before that, before the one at twelve, was it eight till twelve? Were they four-hour watches?
WEB: These four-hour watches, they, you were drawn from, they started by midnight, more or less,
CB: Yeah, right
WEB: We used to think but that probably, started a little bit earlier than that but you’d done so long and then you got relieved and you left
CB: Yeah. So, at what stage did the farm operation change because of the war and why was it changed? How was it changed?
WEB: Well
CB: Because they started doing arable crops, didn’t they?
WEB: Well, this is all before the war, before the war [unclear], it was more or less just have a few cows, let them run around in the fields and do things like that, there weren’t much given to ploughing or anything that I can remember before the war
CB: No
WEB: Not, on a
CB: On a
WEB: On this basis
CB: Yeah
WEB: It weren’t really come necessary to do, what is it, to substitute the corn and that we were getting from the [unclear] and that sort of thing were coming in before the war for breadmaking and all that, it wasn’t until after when the war started and we had to make deal with bread and make bread out of the wheat and we started making bread of our own
CB: Did you?
WEB: We’d have our own wheat is what I mean [unclear] it was all done by imported corn wheat stuff
CB: Yeah
WEB: Does that make sense?
CB: Yeah, absolutely. So, then, Westcott became an RAF airfield, so when did that happen, when did they start building that and what was the reaction?
WEB: Dates, I can’t remember those dates and what was it, who was when? [unclear] to say
CB: Well, we can look up the actual date but what do you remember about it happening because your house
WEB: Yes, yes, as a matter of fact while, before that happened, I was happily working on the farm down here and then I got talking to some lads who was on the, doing the ministry job as I call it and I know he said, well, if they are getting that much money, I think it’s time I went in and had some [unclear], so I left the farm and went into the [unclear] and started doing this job and at that time I was, I was taken a surveyor [unclear] on a dumper to [unclear] we went up and came up to the bridge and what was the boss from the farm spotted me and that’s where my problems started then because he immediately went back and phoned the employment agency [unclear] I was immediately told to go and see them to get myself back on the farm, I was more important to them on the farm than the [unclear] so I was virtually took back to the farm and made to work on that farm until the wartime was over. I couldn’t please myself where I went [unclear] I had to be there. Do you understand this?
CB: Absolutely. So, there you were, in a house, a row of three, is it, next to the airfield, so did that map out as they were building it?
WEB: Well, it was, no, it didn’t affect us to in a lot of ways, you know, I mean, the only thing that we sort of did fall into was it all these, making these rain rings and putting them on where the aircraft standings were which what they called the one [unclear] behind the hazes, where I lived, was given a number of sea flight, that was its number and that’s where a lot of the fellows worked and that’s where a lot of the fellows used to nip out and go absent to drink without anybody else knowing [laughs] [unclear]. Mother used to be [unclear] nipping and give them plates of food and things like that they didn’t want give mother on a plate said, yes, you can use that more than we can, which take me now to, down on this road as we go down to Mote farm
CB: Right
WEB: Just as you go down [unclear], there they got as machine gun post, a machine gun nest then for Canadians, the Canadians were stationed in the old drive, driveway down at Lodge Garage they went that, they were stationed there, the Canadians were and they had a machine gun nest, machine gun [unclear] the bloke and what was it, and he came and he made friends with us, with myself and my brother, used to go down to [unclear] and for a pint or two of milk the farmer didn’t know about, he, they used to give us a bit of corned beef [laughs], which I, which people don’t know about, they shouldn’t have known about it then so we used to get a bit of corned beef for giving a pint of Mr. Fenimore’s milk and all went on during the war that sort of thing
CB: Nobody ever knew
WEB: No, well, I supposed they guessed I mean, Mr. Fenimore, what was it, he got these as I said, as I said the daughter of the farm, Carrie Fenimore, she used to be in charge of the chicken in these, I forget what they used to call them things, you could [unclear] them with the [unclear] and [unclear] with the [unclear], I forget the
CB: And they were called arcs, were they?
WEB: Well, [unclear] that anyway, and they shipped them about the farms and she looked after that and all the, what was it, and after, when you’d done all the those, all the milk was in churns which stood about that height from the ground were filled up and we, they had to be taken from the farm and up to the road here and stood on the road where Nestle’s milk lorries would pick them up and Carrie used to [unclear] the door, she drove the van up and I’d have to go up with her to lump the cans of milk away to where they go and that was where we got the milk to Aylesbury.
CB: These churns were about four feet high but how much milk did they carry each?
WEB: [unclear] I can’t [unclear] at the moment
CB: Probably about forty pints
WEB: I mean they [laughs] I stood about that, about that high so what was in there I wouldn’t know
CB: No
WEB: But there was but we used to send about five churns of milk per day to Aylesbury, to the Aylesbury Nestle’s, Nestle’s milk Aylesbury, [unclear] that
CB: What was the lorry? Was it a steam lorry or was it a
WEB: It was a petrol
CB: Petrol
WEB: Petrol driven lorry, lorry with a flat back where the bloke used to keep the pints of milk and get it go in to set on top of the
CB: The technique was to kick it and bounce it
WEB: Well, it was, yes, it got two little handles at the top
CB: Yeah
WEB: But he [unclear], his foot [unclear] side of the lorry, just slide it on
CB: So you
WEB: The lorry was not very high
CB: No. You brought it but he loaded it, did he?
WEB: He’d done all the, if he, if there was no, we used to leave it, if, you take it up to the road and you pick up the old churn and they used to drop the spare churns as I went down but if they were there when you were, you took the spare churn and left the milk, the milk there for him to pick up, you didn’t have to be there to see him take it
CB: But it was on a deck by the gate, was it?
WEB: That was on a
CB: Platform
WEB: Well, some [unclear] had platforms but we just set them straight onto the road
CB: Was it concrete?
WEB: To the farm you had road on, you know
CB: Ok. And how did you sterilise the empty ones when they returned them?
WEB: Well, when they returned them, they were already done
CB: Ready to fill
WEB: Straight in, straight into the caveyard and filled them up again
CB: Yeah. Right
WEB: But to, it was [unclear] in the farm there was a place where you put your milk, I forget what they called it now so, you put your milk into the top and it went through to cool it off, they cooled the milk off before it went into the can, into the churns
CB: Right
WEB: The churns that’s what
CB: Yeah
WEB: Thinking about
CB: Good
WEB: But that, that was heavy work that you had to do
CB: You were the only person who did that, were you?
WEB: You had to do it cause Carrie, the daughter couldn’t let them and so she just drove the little lost van it was at that time but they got, just [unclear] Carrie used to drive it
CB: I think we’ll take a break for a mo, thank you.
WEB: Lived on, lived where I am.
CB: Right, so, let’s just look at the farm. The Fenimores didn’t own this farm, did they?
WEB: No
CB: Who do you think owned it?
WEB: No, they rent it
CB: Right, from whom?
WEB: From the [unclear] estates
CB: Right
WEB: As far as I could think,
CB: Right. And the house you were in, who owned that?
WEB: That was, oh, some,
CB: It wasn’t owned by the farmer?
WEB: No
CB: It was owned by the Crown
WEB: Crown properties
CB: Yeah
WEB: Crown properties owned that
CB: Because it was the edge of the road
WEB: Like there sort of thing
CB: Right
WEB: That was [unclear]
CB: That, yeah. And you were one of a big family, so how big was the family?
WEB: There was eleven in our family
CB: Right. Mixture of boys and girls?
WEB: Yeah, I think it was six and five, I
CB: Yeah, ok
WEB: That was [unclear], that was five boys and six girls, yeah
CB: Yeah
WEB: And at the moment, there’s just three boys
CB: Yeah
WEB: Left
CB: Left
WEB: That’s the sad outcome
CB: So, going back to when the airfield was starting to be built, in about 1940, ’41, that was right next to your house, what could you see going on from the house? Because
WEB: Well
CB: It was land which it was a mixture of fields, wasn’t it? What did they do about that?
WEB: The field and different thing
CB: Woods?
WEB: [unclear] say that the first thing that you saw, thing was the great big caterpillar tractors around pulling down, pulling up hedges and things like that to make way for all this airfield now and as I say, I left and went over to, thought I get a few paid more than I was getting on the farm and that was Derby, this is the name of the firm if you want
CB: Yeah
WEB: It was the one I worked for was Derby Everdale and Greenwood who were subcontracting to, I can’t think now, the overall government was, what was it
CB: A big construction company
WEB: Big
CB: Like McAlpine
WEB: Well, was something like that, there, can’t think of it now but that was more or less done there and as I say, I thought I’d have some of the while I went, while they sent me back they said, Mr. Barnett, not Mr. Barnett, they called me, what was it? Get back to work, you, work, they said, you are more important where you are than where, [unclear] told me, he said, you’ll stay there until the end of the war, that’s your job, and that was all they told me, that, and during that time, the whole home guard and all that you were expected to join that but at night-time you’d have to do a stand on, from, on the road
CB: Yeah
WEB: On the A41
CB: Yeah
WEB: To ensure that there was no funny business by, you know, some people wanted to damage the, damage the things at Agnem Street station, that was all that keep you on that, because in the Agnum Street station they got that based to run petrol into that, to Wadston to store and you had to make sure that it was doing and then, as I say, you done that and the time it was, you finished that shift it was time to go and milk the cows
CB: What sort of people were they thinking were going to do these things?
WEB: Well, it was German parachuters more than anything, you know, that was what they, that was what they used to tell us, they dropped these people with parachutes and things and we believed them and you had to believe, innit? They say they would drop, I presume they could’ve done, but that we believed it and we used to do this patrolling. Two of us used to do the patrol and then get relieved, the ideal one was to start at four o’clock in the morning and do that and do that and [unclear] until six and then you went and done your farming
CB: Right
WEB: Done your milking, went and done your milking and then you went home and had your breakfast and all that sort of thing
CB: What weapons did you carry?
WEB: We had, I don’t know where, the ones we had were the imported 300
CB: Springfields
WEB: Must have been the Springfields, it was American made
CB: American, yeah
WEB: [unclear] that was the ones we had, we had Springfield and five rounds of ammunition
CB: Right
WEB: And we kept that, there was two of those and [unclear] cause me brother Sam [unclear] he had one as well
CB: Did you take it home or?
WEB: That was, that was kept at home.
CB: Yea
WEB: But you had to take it to your [unclear] on the Sunday and that one we were doing the drills and [unclear] and several on a Sunday and all that sort of thing
CB: Where did you practice your shooting skills?
WEB: Unfortunately, we didn’t get to any shooting practices, that was too, our ammunition was too, what they called? Too
CB: Too [unclear]
WEB: Too spare, too expensive, and too valuable then to expend on things like that, what we used to do was to have a target sort of thing with an air rifle
CB: Ah
WEB: [unclear] and you never practiced with the actual big machine, as I call it,
CB: Yeah
WEB: You had a little air rifle
CB: Yeah. And how good was your shooting?
WEB: Pardon?
CB: How good was your shooting?
WEB: My shooting weren’t too bad, actually. It was about fair, fair
CB: So when you briefly worked on the airfield construction, how much did they pay you?
WEB: Oh, I think it was round about that time, it was round about seven or eight pounds, something like that which normally
CB: A week?
WEB: For that time
CB: A week
WEB: A week
CB: Yeah
WEB: But the farming, that was only up to about seven or eight pounds
CB: Right
WEB: So that was what [unclear], Mr. Fenimore he spotted me on this, what was it and I was back down the next day
CB: Yeah. So, how many people were building the airfield, were there lots of people?
WEB: Oh, I don’t know, quite a lot, what was it? It was Irish, a lot of Irish people
CB: Right
WEB: At the time
CB: Where did they house those?
WEB: In a factory down sort of gypsie bombers as we called it, you know a gypsies barn is buried where the club is
CB: Yes, in the wood there
WEB: In that strip of land there to the bottom of the hill, that’s where they used to house those people, in Nissen huts sort of things
CB: Which they put specially, had they?
WEB: They put them up specially for them
CB: How long did it take to build the airfield?
WEB: Oh, I don’t know, [unclear] I don’t know, it didn’t take them long, to, I mean, it’s, I think it’s, I wouldn’t say
CB: So, you talked about these caterpillars that were ripping up the hedges, how many trees did they have to take out?
WEB: Oh, that is beyond me, I mean, as a matter of fact, I don’t know, before the war actually they were [unclear] from way [unclear] on the side of the road
CB: The A41
WEB: From there the back portal as we called it to the Westcott turn was a load of those, what we called? Birch, is it?
CB: Silver birch
WEB: Silver birch, they were lines of eight of those trees on the road, then they got four of them and then there was odd one or two down Westcott lane, these silver birch trees and that sort of thing
CB: So what happened to those?
WEB: All fell and burnt, but the most of it was burnt and the logs and that, cause people had them stacked and had them for firewood and that sort of thing
CB: They pulled the roots out?
WEB: The roots and all that were pulled all out and
CB: Where did the put those?
WEB: They put them in heaps and got rid of those with the fire
CB: And what about the runways, because they had a different type of equipment for that, did they?
WEB: What the
CB: Making the runways
WEB: That I couldn’t say, I mean, I just
CB: You could watch them
WEB: It was concrete and what was it? All the way, done, they’d done it in bays, bays
CB: In sections
WEB: In sections, that was all, don’t know what the, the machine was actually making the concrete and they’d lay there and then, when that was drawn, they moved it on and made the next one and doing, that was done in bays I think
CB: Right, yeah
WEB: Call it but it was big concrete
CB: And what about the material. How did that get there?
WEB: Came in from road, from the road, from [unclear], the Oxford area, somewhere down, I just big, some big [unclear]
CB: Were they petrol
WEB: Pits and where they loaded them up on the lorries and
CB: Yeah
WEB: They brought the stuff and loaded it and put it on, what was it, where that was to be used and that was levelled out by tractor, the things and pushed all over and levelled and rolled out and then they made concrete on the top of it
CB: Right. Now, there’s a railway that goes down beside the airfield so, how much came by railway?
WEB: Funnily enough I don’t think not a lot of it came by the rail but the only thing that sort of come by rail was petrol and storage that they sent to Wadston and stored up in the plantations of Wadston [unclear]
CB: Oh, was it? Right
WEB: Mostly [unclear] that I can tell
CB: That was fuel for the aircraft
WEB: That was fuel for, not for the aircraft, that was fuel for the general army actually but a load of these things were in tin, what they called it? Tin cans, they weren’t very thick but those weigh round about four gallons
CB: Yeah
WEB: And they were all stacked in the Wadston, Wadston plantations
CB: Right
WEB: Right where the doctor’s surgery is [unclear], all around that area
CB: On the far side of the village, yeah
WEB: Was where [unclear]
CB: So, how different was the supply, when the airfield was finished, how did they supply the fuel for that?
WEB: That used to come in by big tankers from somewhere, I don’t know where
CB: But not by train
WEB: Ehm
CB: Not by train
WEB: Not say this local station anyway
CB: Right
WEB: It came, it might, even then I might be wrong, but I think it was from somewhere else they used to come, the big tankers
CB: Yeah. Now your house and the others next to it are on the north side of the airfield, they actually with the hard standings for servicing, they also had a big petrol store underground
WEB: In where?
CB: Just across the fence from here
WEB: Ah, yes, yes
CB: So how did they build that?
WEB: That was all a big, they dug it all out, a big pit and they put a steel tank, yeah, that was, a big tank was lowered into the ground with pumps and all that and they [unclear] for petrol, well, fuel for aircraft anyway and then they [unclear] the back [unclear] where [unclear] is, are three, are standings for aircraft
CB: Yes
WEB: Cause I was saying, [unclear] or something like that, three Wellington bombers used to stay
CB: [unclear]
WEB: Were parked out there and that sort of got to know the load of the people
CB: Yeah
WEB: [unclear] Tipps Wooller, he used to run to dinner now and again he [unclear], we don’t want it, you can eat it [laughs], yeah Tipps Wooller, [unclear] to know I recall, you know, some of the names but no [unclear] to me, so I say, Tipps, he was an aircraft ambuler, he brought out to the aircraft and that at the back and then he, there was several couples I used to know in when we used to go and have a pint with them when we got in the pub to get a pint but I forget the names of those people that used to come, I know they come up into London somewhere
CB: Why was it difficult to get into the pub?
WEB: Pardon?
CB: Why was it difficult to get into the pub?
WEB: Into the what?
CB: Into the pub. You said it was difficult to get into it
WEB: The pub?
CB: Yeah
WEB: Oh well, I mean, [unclear], it was like everything else, it was shortage of beer [laughs], that was too odd difficult thing to get in there, I mean, they’d be all waiting outside there for Frank Washington to open the door, [unclear] that was, the biggest problem was to rush in and a beer, they weren’t officially rationed but they weren’t [unclear] for them to give it then, yeah
CB: Now, this big tank with petrol in, when they moved the contents to be able to fill the aircraft, to what extent was there a strong smell of fuel in the air?
WEB: I don’t know this much of it. I couldn’t notice much of the smell from it really. I mean [unclear] I presumed, which way the wind blowed
CB: Right
Web: But we, some of that we didn’t take much notice of but [unclear] the big, the tank, that when you get more of a smell than anything was when the tanker came round to fuel the aircraft
CB: Right
WEB: Which was right close to the [unclear] the aircraft and that was when you used to get more of a smell from the tankers but other than that, nothing [unclear]
CB: So, how did they get from the main road to this fuel tank? Was there a special gate near your house?
WEB: What was?
CB: The tankers
WEB: The tankers [unclear]
CB: They came in from a gate near your house, did they?
WEB: Not the actual tankers that fuelled, they used to come in and I had, they had an underground tank
CB: Yeah
WEB: Inside the aerodrome which was quite a long way from the [unclear] and they used to, at the end of where our garden and that, there was a road
CB: Right
WEB: Off there where all the tankers went in and to supply the tanks and that sort of thing
CB: Yes
WEB: Other than that, that was the only sort of thing that used to go over in there but it was a pretty busy thing I would think
CB: We’ll take a break there. So, just talking about
WEB: End of the gardens
CB: Yeah, there was a [unclear]
WEB: There was a [unclear] called Wadston terrace
CB: Yeah
WEB: There used to be a little building with a sentry, and he used to let in the lorries that’s one thing I think [unclear] lorries
CB: The fuel delivery lorries
WEB: They let the fuel delivery lorries in
CB: Yeah. So how was the airfield secured? They didn’t have a fence, did it?
WEB: Had, most of it round was concertina barbwire
CB: Right
WEB: One roll, two rolls on the floor, one on the top
CB: Right
WEB: That’s what they call it
CB: How high was that? When they were piled on top?
WEB: Well, they were, each roll was about that high
CB: Right, five, six feet
WEB: There was one, that was up from the floor
CB: Yeah, five feet
WEB: And then one, another one
CB: Yeah
WEB: Balanced on the two
CB: Yeah
WEB: That was the only thing that I can remember of [unclear] place
CB: Yeah
WEB: Being [unclear] as it stood and [unclear] we used to be a very good [unclear] for the people who come and see and have a pint without the bosses knowing [laughs]
CB: So where would they
WEB: They would walk through the garden at the end of the pub and then back
CB: Which pub are we talking about? Which pub are we talking about, in the village or elsewhere?
WEB: [unclear] go anywhere more or less where the pub, they got the beer
CB: Ah
WEB: This was the problem for me, see, with all these extra people, is, where do you go and get your pint of beer, when it don’t last long? You know, it was, they ain’t got beer all the time, these pubs, they just start to [unclear] if you [unclear] go and get a pint every day mostly, well I suppose, it was a type of rationing [unclear] but, yeah
CB: Could you buy beer to drink at home or was it not available?
WEB: Never, I never saw any of that sort of, bought anywhere, not a way, that was too, they wouldn’t sell it, I don’t think, in the pubs, avoidable for them to sell it, I don’t think, you probably would do but I can’t say that I know that you can buy beer to take home
CB: Right
WEB: But, I mean, it’s a long time ago, isn’t it?
CB: Yes
WEB: But there
CB: Now what about, when the aircraft, when the airfield became operational, that was quite a change to the quiet of the countryside so how did people take to that?
WEB: Oh, just a war time job that you had to take, it wasn’t that, the noisiest places for us, I presume, was when the aircraft was on the landing, on the site, next [unclear] and they were testing the engines
CB: Yes
WEB: They were revving up, that was the noisy part of it and to do that, we used to laugh, we got Lottie Cannon used to live one end of [unclear] and guess it’s going back and Stanley [unclear] was in the middle, I think it was the [unclear] in the middle way round there for end at the time and mum said, that lot, Lottie will be able to [unclear] she said today, she said, they grabbed the aircraft blowing straight across our garden [laughs], they used to make, that was the type of thing they’d done, you see, to test the aircraft, that was right on there, in the aircraft there and then the [unclear] is here, and they, I guess, they just revved up the engine to test them, and all that sort of thing and you had to put with it and that was it
CB: They didn’t swing the aircraft into a better position to save you
WEB: Pardon?
CB: They didn’t swing the aircraft
WEB: No
CB: Save the
WEB: No, they, that, where the aircraft come in to land, that’s where it [unclear] straight to the aerodrome and tail, facing your [unclear]
CB: Yeah
WEB: You got all the background then
CB: So you deserved the extra food as compensation
WEB: We deserved a lot but we didn’t get [laughs], oh dear
CB: So we are talking about a big family here, how many of the family had left to get elsewhere by this time, beginning of the war?
WEB: By the war all the girls had gone
CB: Right
WEB: I think most
CB: Cause they were older
WEB: No, it was because the way these people worked them days, when the girls left school they were billeted out to the place where they were gonna work
CB: Right
WEB: [unclear] they seemed to manage to all these families
CB: Yeah
WEB: I mean, I think certainly my oldest sister Winnie, she went over the back of the farmer back Quainton Hills [unclear] Quainton Hills and she was lodged in that place, that’s where she met her husband and
CB: What was her job then?
WEB: Well, she was [unclear], she kept and cleaned the farm and kept it all going
CB: Right
WEB: [unclear]
CB: What did the other girls do?
WEB: Oh,
CB: A variety
WEB: I don’t know, Alice, she was sent out to [unclear], Aston Clinton, that area, round there to do people’s ailsing and the other girls, they all, well, don’t think of the younger ones, were at home, you know
CB: So, in those days, the big houses had girls in service
WEB: Yes, they did that, that was what they had to do mostly what they’d done [unclear], business was the service for
CB: You were on the farm, were there any of the girls in the land army?
WEB: Not our girls, no
CB: And your brothers, what did they do?
WEB: The brothers were all more or less, Ernie, now, he was the star of the family actually, cause he was a cross country runner and he was transferred from Grendon, that was present man, Lord somebody who’s done Grendon Hall
CB: Grendon Hall, yeah
WEB: And he worked for them in the gardens
CB: Right
WEB: And he happened to go, happened to go to Grendon and the police were holding a sport’s day at Grendon, at Bicester and he [unclear] and went to and do his races and he eventually come home with a, what do you call it? Hang on the wall [unclear], tells the weather, a weather glass, a grandmother clock, and something else he, three things he brought home on that high school from
CB: That he’d won
WEB: He won
CB: Yeah
WEB: But the police bought it what was it, when from then on, that made him and they got in contact with Wickham Phoenix Harriers, which was at Wickham, what was it? And they got him a job in the chair factories and that’s where he spent the rest of his days in factories apart from when he was called up into the Air Force and that was it, he won the only international medal he got was when he, England and Belgium were against other sports and he was one of the runners and he got a gold medal in that, what was it, and that was his only medal he ever sort of won in international, what was it, and then on he went in the Air Force and the next thing I know he was in the Far East, Middle East, my mistake, doing his Air Force
CB: Right. When did he join the RAF? When did he join the RAF?
WEB: When did he? Oh, I don’t know, he was more or less conscripted I think into it, that was where
CB: At the beginning of the war
WEB: At the beginning of the war and that was where he done that training and all that sort
CB: How much older than you was he?
WEB: Oh Ernie, he was quite, he was the oldest and I was round about the middle, middle of the family
CB: Right
WEB: I don’t, those, I don’t know much really cause the difference in years and that, most of the girls then were sent out to work [unclear]
CB: Was that because of the war or because that’s how the things happened?
WEB: Well, that’s how things happened normally
CB: Right
WEB: Cause the war didn’t have a lot of effect on the difference what, the only difference they did sort of do then were to get jobs into factories and things so that were important to do, war efforts where before that they’d do everything else
CB: Right. And did one of your brothers do work in the mines? What was he?
WEB: Oh, well, Victor
CB: Yeah
WEB: Victor, he’s still living in Aylesbury at the moment, he was conscripted down the mines, yes
CB: A Bevin boy
WEB: A Bevin boy, yeah
CB: Yes
WEB: Yes, he was, that was it, he was a Bevin boy. I don’t know many people that done it from around here that went in there
CB: Yeah. And where was that? Up in the north?
WEB: He went up to
CB: Newcastle?
WEB: That was Newcastle and somewhere around that area
CB: Ok, we’ll take a break there. We’re stopping there. So, what we are going to do now is talk about the crashes and other recollections of the airfield. Actually, Westcott 11 Operational Training Unit lost 53 Wellingtons in crashes
WEB: [unclear]
CB: Yeah. And how many, what’s the first one you remember? You talked about one to do with a signal box.
WEB: Yes, well, that one has taken three runways out there and I think it was, I don’t know which one, which one to name, they named them, but it came from that way and he didn’t make the end of the runway properly and he was never got enough height and he hit the signal box and went into the, this side of the railway and that was where one of the fellows, I think it was one of the fellows down on the Restborough [unclear] but that was that one but I don’t think there was any
CB: Right, so then another one was one that
WEB: Another one was, I mean, [laughs] I don’t know whether anybody ever looked at, if they kept the [unclear] on the left hand side but you come down from [unclear], from [unclear] down to Woodham, I think I’m not sure but there’s three, three fences on that left hand side, where the aircraft had actually gone over the road, come over the, come to land on that airfield, failed, went over the field, down and over the road and landed with its, either its tail or its nose, over the Bicester road
CB: This explains
WEB: And I think if I’m not sure, there’s three fences have been put up in the [unclear], I don’t know [unclear]
CB: So, this is a strip between your house and where we are talking today of about half a mile and we are talking about the end of the runway that is runway 2 8, in other words goes to the North-West so there was shot out
WEB: They are the ones that come over the road then
CB: Yeah
WEB:
CB: To the A41
WEB: Yeah. Well, that’s as far as I can tell, I don’t know where they got fences in there or not, but they used to have gaps in the hedge then and they been filled in [unclear] sense or not, I don’t know,
CB: Now, there was one crash that took place on the 15th of March 1944 which was when there was a Wellington in the circuit and it was hit, this is in the night, by a Stirling that came from another direction, what do you remember about that?
WEB: That’s the first time I ever called a Stirling, we, everybody [laughs], I’ve always known it as a Lancaster,
CB: Right, that’s the other, that’s the different crash, this the one that where they were hit
WEB: This is
CB:
WEB: This is one at Westcott turn
CB: Yes
WEB: This, this
CB: Ok, that’s the other one, yes
WEB: This plane had been doing circuits and bumps as we called it
CB: Right
WEB: Been flying [unclear]
CB: Yeah
WEB: On its final, he didn’t make it, he went straight over the road
CB: Yes
WEB: But that crashed his undercarriage
CB: Yes
WEB: And he [unclear] that side of the road
CB: The other side, this is a Wellington
WEB: At night time, they’d done this big raid on Germany and these aircraft were flying back and these actually got diverted from some other airfield, this Lancaster bomber, we’ll call it a Lancaster
CB: It is a Lancaster, yes
WEB: A Lancaster bomber come flying in from the other way and he didn’t make it, he went over the road and landed on top of this Wellington that was already there
CB: Right
WEB: And that was where all the hullabaloo got started then, blokes running down the road, in their flying boots, mom looked out of the window and she said, [unclear] Charlie said, blokes running [unclear] we better get out, and we [unclear] then Kitt Rebell come along and he shouted and told us, get out and clear airfield, he said, in the roots cause all in [unclear] beyond our place were tree roots, [unclear] up when aircraft were being made, when the airfield was being made but there was a load of roots out there, so get out in [unclear] and we went out there. My father, he was out there and he was when it went off, he was pulling his trousers on outside in the field and he was pulling his trousers on and suddenly he said, I heard this thump, I know there was a lump of aircraft metal, not two yards from him but my father was near my father ever got to an aircraft, he said, that’s the nearest I ever wanna be and that was, he missed, that was when that aircraft blew up at Westcott turn
CB: So you were in the tree tumps
WEB: We were in the tree stumps
CB: And where was he, close to that?
WEB: Who, my father?
CB: Yeah
WEB: He was in the tree stumps with us
CB: Yeah
WEB: In those but he was [unclear] a little bit in the open when that aircraft blew
CB: Yeah
WEB: That of course took the roof off [unclear] the slades and things and we were covered with sheets [unclear] for ages
CB: Who came and fixed it?
WEB: I don’t know, it took, I think it was, I’m not sure where it was, [unclear] and fixed the
CB: [unclear]
WEB: Well, but the finish
CB: So this was the first of June 1944. How long did it take to get the house fixed?
WEB: I can’t say, took a long time I mean they more or less had cut [unclear] to make it waterproof then
CB: Yeah
WEB: To stop the water but to actual do the repairs, that took ages
CB: So, it blew the roofs off, what happened to the windows?
WEB: Windows were [unclear], never was blown out the windows so that they fixed those up as well. A lot of time I think some of them would bits of plaster or something instead of glass
CB: So this was actually only two hundred yards from your house that the explosion took place. What other houses were damaged?
WEB: A little bit more than
CB: Four hundred yards?
WEB: [unclear] from Westcott turn to [unclear]
CB: Yeah, four hundred yards
WEB: Something like that
CB: Yeah. What other houses were damaged?
WEB: Oh, I presume the [unclear] were damaged and all that sort of thing but
CB: There was a bungalow in the opposite direction that received an engine through the roof. And who was hurt in this?
WEB: I, I don’t know, obviously somebody I don’t know, I
CB: Ok. So, the person that hurt was the duty officer who’d been telling people to get out and he’s buried in the church yard but he was the only casualty from the blast.
WEB: Yeah
CB: The bomber landed with the full bomb load
WEB: That’s [unclear] full bomb load [unclear]
CB: Which he’d brought back
WEB: He landed on the Wellington that was lying there incumbent
CB: That’s what made it catch fire, wasn’t it? Cause it wasn’t on fire when it landed
WEB: Naturally in coming in, his engines were hot anyway
CB: Yes
WEB: And he had the bomb in
CB: That’s it
WEB: Petrol was very inflammable stuff and that, especially that aircraft fuel
CB: But unusually the aircraft came with a full bomb load, cause you would not normally land with a full bomb load
WEB: Yes, but he was diverted from another airfield
CB: Yes
WEB: I mean, you wouldn’t have got a Westcott plane coming in with a full bomb load because they didn’t have, they didn’t have a lot of bombing sites
CB: Yes
WEB: Only when they, they would make an exception
CB: Yeah
WEB: [unclear] but not many of the crashes that happened round Westcott were with people, with aircraft with fully explosive bombs on. That’s the only thing good about any crash that came round Westcott [unclear] that one
CB: Cause it was an operational training unit. Now, one of the crashes was registered as Waddesdon so where was that?
WEB: Well, as far as I know, that was the only one that went, that was in the side of the hill, was it?
CB: Right
WEB: I don’t remember
CB: But that wasn’t by the fuel dump
WEB: What?
CB: It wasn’t by the fuel dump
WEB: I don’t know much about, we didn’t know much about anything like that
CB: Right. Just stop it, just a mo.
WEB: I still, was still [unclear] went but doing tees and what I did when it went over
US: But you used to have a cafe
CB: Yeah, it is on, yeah. So, Gos ran a café, did he?
WEB: That was a café there
CB: Yeah, and he got the engine
WEB: What they called a path walk cafe
CB: Right
WEB: That was, they were a going concern
CB: Yeah
WEB: So, I think a load of RAF people used to go up there for a cup of tea or things like that
CB: Right. Yeah
WEB: But
CB: This is the bungalow that got the engine through the roof. Then there was another house I gather called Victoria House which was badly damaged
WEB: Victoria House, this
CB: That’s on the edge of the village, what happened there?
WEB: Well, I don’t know, must have been, I mean, that was as close as any other [unclear] could get really
CB: Yeah, the blast hit it
WEB: But I mean, obviously damaged
CB: Yeah
WEB: But we missed looking at our own what was it, we didn’t really know much about what happened down there and there or I suppose it was, yeah
CB: Now the
WEB: [unclear] you see
CB: The duty officer was flight lieutenant Bulmer of the cider family
WEB: Bulmer, sorry
CB: And he’s buried in the churchyard and they put in new windows in the church, did they? And they paid for it, restoring the church
WEB: Almost
CB: Restoring the church
WEB: Yeah, they come, yeah, Bulmer’s [unclear] people
CB: There is a plaque in the church to his memory
WEB: Yeah
CB: Yeah, right. Now, there is another crash which is recorded on the airfield with a monument and that was, took place on the 15th of March ‘44, when a Wellington was hit by a Short Stirling and that was near Quainton and you know somebody who was in the signal box at the time.
WEB: Well, that’s, that might be Sue’s uncle
CB: Right
WEB: Someone like that [unclear] but I don’t this Stirling, I didn’t know any Stirlings here but if they say it was a Stirling that was what it was, but I imagine that could have been a Lancaster
CB: But it was a Stirling and it landed at Wappenham, crashed at Wappenham
WEB: Yeah
CB: In the end but the Wellington landed nearby so the significance was this person in the signal box seeing it
WEB: Yeah
CB: The pilot’s wife was in a house up the road with her new child, he was an Australian
WEB: Yeah, I, well, I don’t know [unclear]
CB: That’s right. What other crashes do you remember there being
WEB: Well, I mean, as I just say, if you look what date where they overshot the runway away and landed in the fields, the only things that mark by fencing and all that sort of thing
CB: Yeah
WEB: That I can say about any others I mean, I should say, if you walked around the perimeter, you’d find a crash site anywhere around that aerodrome
CB: Yeah
WEB: Where the aircraft were taking off and landing, but you can’t, to pinpoint it’s a hell of a job
CB: On a more positive front then, how about the social life? How did you link in with that with the airmen and the air women for that matter?
WEB: Well, we used to drink together in The Swan at Westcott, that to we went out to drink, they weren’t allowed much beer about then, I mean, the pub, you’d be standing outside the pub waiting for it to open and it wouldn’t open something like that was, I mean the, when Frank [unclear] the bloke who used to keep the pub at Westcott, he used to say, said, when it’s gone, it’s gone, he said, so if you drink it now, he said, you won’t get it tomorrow, and that was his philosophy and you get rid on. I know we were young [unclear] but we had bicycles and things like that and when we hang up going up to Quainton and see any or not that was we used to take, you could always get a pint at Quainton
CB: There were three pubs in Waddesdon
WEB: Waddesdon
CB: So, how did you get on there?
WEB: Well that was, we used to get off a pint in the [unclear] now and again when we started doing the home guard, home guard training sessions at Waddesdon on Sunday morning, that was the only place you could get a pint if you wanted a pint then
CB: Would help your shooting, wouldn’t it? What about socials that they ran on the airfield, cause there were a good few WAAFs, there was a separate WAAF area
WEB: Well, didn’t take much part in the social side of the airfield, you know
CB: Right
WEB: But any time I used to [unclear] was when I got in the Swan and I did know a couple of WAAFs and their boyfriends and things like that, they used to come in the Swan and other than that I didn’t know, yeah, I get the names [laughs]
CB: Now, being in a reserved occupation meant that you were a young person amongst military people, most people were in the forces one way or the other, what sort of reaction did you get as you walked around and cycled around, not being in uniform?
WEB: No, [unclear] I think people more or less understood the situation you were in, you were in that, I never got any diverse comments about [unclear] or anything
CB: When you were in the Home Guard you’d be wearing the uniform, at other times you wouldn’t, wouldn’t you?
WEB: Well, in the Home Guard, you wore that when you went to and done the midnight walk, as we used to call it, go out at midnight and be home back by four o’clock, be in bed at four and then back up again at six and go milking [laughs], that’s how we used to, things, no, I, wasn’t anything spectacular
CB: Did they give you a badge to wear, to show that you were in a reserved occupation?
WEB: No. I never had one anyway
CB: Right
WEB: I didn’t know never [unclear] I mean there was my brother Lewis and myself, we were all working in the same, on the same farm, just one day here,
CB: Mate Farm
WEB: Mote Farm and we never did [unclear] seen any words or anything from anybody about it, you know
CB: So, what would you prefer to have done in the war?
WEB: Well, what I wanted to do and which I tried to do, several times, as a matter of fact I [unclear] from here to blooming Oxford to go to a recruiting centre and all I got in trouble was get on your bikes and go back to where you come from, you’re in a reserved occupation and you are better off where you are. And that was that, that was the only thing I [unclear]. And I went to Old Wickham, it was [unclear] come back on the, went to Wickham, come back on a train said it was a waste of time then, trying to go, you’re in a reserved occupation, you’ve got to do that reserved occupation to change jobs that blokes say if I want to move from where [unclear] the
CB: Mate Farm
WEB: Yeah, but I wanted to go to work at Waddesdon for somebody else, it was a hell of a job, you got to [unclear] to Aylesbury and see somebody in the labour exchange when I’ve been all through the, what was it? The [unclear] was, go back and behave yourself and don’t worry us again. You go back where you come from.
CB: Yeah
WEB: That was that, that was the attitude to take. You were in the, you were there and that’s where you’re gonna stay
CB: Right
WEB: [unclear] it was, you couldn’t, I mean, as I said, I tried to get away from [unclear] and only needed the farmer to spot me once and just ring [unclear] exchange and somebody was there to tell me to get back on the farm again
CB: So, which of the forces were you hoping to join?
WEB: Mh?
CB: Which of the forces were you hoping to join?
WEB: Well, I was always wanted to join the navy, that was my one and only thing, I wanted to join the navy and I went, and I tried my [unclear] to get into the navy but every time I went anywhere, was the same thing, you’re doing a better job than [unclear], but directly the war was over, this is what nickels me in a way, so as soon as the war was over, and things had settled down a bit, the first thing I got, was a notice to go and see somebody at High Wycombe and when I went to High Wycombe they said, you will be sent now to a training camp down in, what was it? To join the navy. And I said, why at this time? He said, because we want, he said the, well, what we call it? Operation, people that was, were forcibly sent into the forces, we want those people back home and we will get you training and put you in the navy and send those people back home and that’s exactly what happened. I went down too long for a round of instructions to get down to Plymouth, in that area, to a place down there, and I was conscripted into the navy then and I served seven years and five on a reserve and I was told, that was where I got to be after that and that’s what I had to do.
CB: But the conscripted
WEB: And I was seven years a complete, what shall I say? I thoroughly enjoyed my seven years I served in the navy and I got no complaints whatsoever by joining up.
CB: And what did you do while you were in the navy?
WEB: I ended up being a radar operator, you know, sort of, on any ship I could go and operate, what was it, and I’d been, the best thing really was to get into the plot room on board ship with the officer, the navigating officer and you were on the radar and told him where to put the dots and [unclear] on his [unclear], on his plot. You had two [unclear], you either served in the actual place where the PPI was, the Plot Position Indicator, which was like a little light line going round and round like that and if it hit a ship or anything like that, it would leave a spot and you reported up to the bloke in the, what was it, and from there he’d take it up and you’d keep telling him where that spot [unclear] he said you can plot the course and tell his where the ship was going. So, in a way, it was interesting in a way, but I thoroughly enjoyed it
CB: What was the balance between being on shore and being afloat?
WEB: What, in what way?
CB: How many years of the seven were you on shore and how many on afloat?
WEB: I was, oh, I don’t know, I don’t [unclear] about on any land station really. I went over to, we’d done the training down at Plymouth and that took about to eight weeks, something like that [unclear] course and that and from there, I’d done that and I was in the Mediterranean in next to no time and the first, I joined there and I started, and the coincidence here is that I joined this ship HMS Cheviot and I relieved a bloke on board of that ship by the name of Stanley Pankhurst, now, I lived at Westcott and Stanley Pankhurst lived at Bicester [laughs] and was, his, and when I went there, he said, good gracious, he said, where do you come from? And I said, Westcott. Wow! I could blow the, I could blow the bloody place up, he said, if, he said, you’re the finest bloke I’ve ever seen in this world, he said, come and relieve me. Stanley Pankhurst greeted me to [unclear], he said, here’s the keys, I said, what’s that for? He said, that’s for your locker, he said, he said, you can, I’ll take my kit out, you can put yours in there, he said, I’ll make sure it’s locked, he said, that was when I went since Stanley Pankhurst but his father apparently owned a paper shop or something in Bicester but no
CB: That’s eight miles away
WEB: Yeah, that’s right
CB: Right
WEB: I mean, wonderful, that is to think that you meet somebody who’s glad to see you [laughs]
CB: But the conscription was for less than two years so how did you come to do seven?
WEB: Ah, I, you see, that’s, that was, I volunteered for the seven, I volunteered to, wanted to join the navy and the only thing that stopped me joining the navy was my father and when you, if your father said you can’t do this, in them days, you’d done what your father said
CB: Yeah
WEB: Now, when I decided that I wanted to go, he said, well, he said, you can go now, he said, you’d done all what you need to do here and that was as far as it went and I joined up and I said, I’ll do seven, the seven years and then seven years, if, that seven years was done on a reason was that if we’d given seven years to do and then five years on a reserve that means to say that we still got a little hand on them for another twelve, for twelve years and that’s where they go and half way through that five year job they cancelled it
CB: Right
WEB: They wrote a letter who said you are no longer required and that was, from that [unclear] now I can go upstairs into my bedroom [unclear] and I can go into my, into a, what was it there? and I can pick up a little blue folder, and that’s all my papers
CB: Really?
WEB: Navy
CB: Fantastic. What did you do when you came out of the navy?
WEB: Well, I went into the brickyards
CB: Which is where?
WEB: [laughs] at [unclear], that’s where I started
CB: Just half a mile away
WEB: Yeah. I went and started into the, what was it? And it wasn’t long before Woodham disappeared and I went from there I went to [unclear]
CB: Right. London Brick
WEB: London Brick company. And that’s where I finished my work in days on the brick, I say, they made me redundant when I was, what was, I think I was fifty something,
US: Fifty-eight
WEB: Fifty-eight or something [unclear] and I had round about four, three years to do and they, I didn’t do a day, I’d done one day’s work since I was retired
CB: Right
WEB: And my [unclear] got me to go and do one day’s work for the people that he worked, worked for and [unclear] and sadly he’s gone anyway
CB: What, how far did you move up the organisation? You started doing what, little brickworks?
WEB: In the brickworks? Well, I had work all the time, [unclear] you didn’t get any advancement in any way, at all much, you’d go down into the pit or any, or down or drawing site, going with a barrel going into the [unclear] and run the brick site and load lorries off with your barrels and all that sort of thing, [unclear] anything you could do down there, paid work, I mean, that was the only thing, if you’d done, if you worked hard, you got paid more. But, I did not [unclear], there was no advantage in being in brickyard, brickworks
CB: Did you, to what extent did you find opportunities to take a more responsible job? There’s a chargehand or supervisor or something?
WEB: Chargehand and all that sort of thing, I mean, that came earlier there when somebody else had gone and
CB: Yeah
WEB: And they wanted somebody to fill the place and that was only done or any and when you got to filling out the forms and that sort of thing, but that weren’t, that was all to just fill the forms out, get it cause he took the lorry driver and he took the bricks and away
CB: Right
WEB: [unclear] keep you landing and doing the thing but all our work
CB: What would you say finally was the most memorable thing about your working life from when you left school?
WEB: Memorable? Can’t say there is anything memorable [unclear]. I know being out to more or less do what you like, do what you please and as long as it didn’t do any damage to anybody else. Yeah
CB: Well, Eddie, thank you very much for a very interesting and enlightening conversation
WEB: Well, just, piece of work then, as I say
CB: Now
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with William Edwin Barnett
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarnettWE170328, PBarnettWE1701
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Pending review
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Format
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01:49:02 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Description
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William Edwin Barnett talks about his experience of living on the edge of RAF Westcott, near Aylesbury. Remembers starting to work on a farm at the age of fourteen and describes his everyday life and duties. Tells of being conscripted into the Home Guard, where he did night patrolling and practiced target shooting with an air rifle. Tells of how he wanted to join the Navy but was rejected because he was in a reserved occupation. Talks about various plane crashes, including a Lancaster, of which he gives a detailed and vivid account. After the war, remembers being conscripted into the Navy, where he served for seven years.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
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1944-03-15
11 OTU
civil defence
crash
final resting place
Home Guard
Lancaster
memorial
Operational Training Unit
RAF Westcott
sport
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/780/9339/PSwallowP1801.2.jpg
9b31f1ce807ba92eab35e3b4283acca8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/780/9339/ASwallowRP180914.2.mp3
60ab47068015824b41841c1828d1c3a4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Swallow, Peter
R P Swallow
Raymond Peter Swallow
Description
An account of the resource
One item. An oral history interview with Peter Swallow (b.1929), who reminisces wartime years in Sheffield.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Swallow, RP
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: Right. This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Peter Swallow and the interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is taking place at Peter’s home in Heighington on Friday the 14th of September 2018. Also in attendance is daughter Suzanne Bellhouse. Ok. Peter, tell me a bit about when and where you were born. a
PS: I was born in Sheffield. It’s a steel city, which is not much now like it was before, you know. Yeah. And I was in the house on my own one day. I had the radio on. We had a proper radio then, and Chamberlain came on and, you know was ever so serious giving his little talk and said, ‘We are now at war with Germany.’
MC: So how old were you there then?
PS: About ten, I think.
MC: Ten. So you were born in ’29.
PS: Yeah.
MC: You were born in 1929. What about your early days before the war? Growing up. What was it like? You know, your childhood and school.
[pause]
PS: I went to Walkley Church School and it was, it was the church was there and there was a hall and, and the sorry and the classrooms. And the headmaster used to come in his car. Not many people had cars.
MC: No.
PS: My dad had one. And you had to modify the lights on your car, you know in case Germans came over and spotted you.
MC: That was during the war. Yeah.
PS: And there was a hood. You got this steel plate with a round hood in it about four or five inches in the middle with slots cut in and moved slightly forward so the light would shine down. Your sidelights, you had to paint the, paint the glass and leave just the size of a penny . So it was a bit dark, and of course at that time all the side streets were lit with gas. Gas lamps. This is taking you back isn’t it? Gas lamps. And that’s how the transport was.
MC: Did you enjoy your schooldays?
PS: Yes. Some of, some of the time. We left the schools and went on to home learning and various people volunteered to let us use their houses so that all the children were spread between housing and not altogether in one. One block.
MC: This would have been during the war.
PS: This was during the war. Yeah. And —
MC: So you remember Chamberlain making the announcement.
PS: It wasn’t Chamberlain. Were it? Yeah.
MC: Chamberlain, did you say? The outbreak of war. Yeah.
PS: Yes. I remember that coming up on the radio. It didn’t seem to make much sense to me you know. It was just, it was a bit like you got it whether you liked or whether you didn’t. And of course he started thinking of what were we going to do for defence and they set up the what they called at the time LDV. Local Defence Volunteers. It changed its name because they used to call them the Look, Duck and Vanish [laughs] And my dad was in a Reserved Occupation because he was a plumber, you know.
MC: I was going to ask what he did.
PS: You had to have that sort of person around. And he volunteered to join the LDV and he finished up as a sergeant armourer. And he did a lot of things he shouldn’t have done. He used to bring guns home and all sorts. You know he had a tommy gun in the kitchen one day which was like the ones that Al Capone had with a flat cylinder, sticky bombs. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of a sticky bomb but they were a glass vial with explosives in and a handle with a detonator to set them off and it was covered in metal for safety. And he, he had to take this glass off and stick it. You were supposed to stick it on a tank. Well, this sticky stuff was real sticky. He brought one of them home one day to show us. And he was posted. One of the things they were told to do was if the Germans come and they were coming up the streets, got to come up the streets put your sheets out between the houses on one side of the road and the other because all the houses were up to, up to the pavement you know and just room for a couple of cars or something like that. And so I seem to have lost my —
MC: That’s ok. No. So, I mean what did you come in to contact with any of the RAF during those days? Those war days.
PS: No. I saw, well we had various salute the soldier and salute the airman and this that and the other exhibitions in the town. There was one by the Army and he’d got this gun, you know. A howitzer and I walked up and had a look at it and opened the breech and then just got the breech in pieces when I got caught. So they were saying, ‘Who are you? Where do you live? What are you doing?’ And oh dear.
MC: Yeah.
PS: But I was inquisitive you know and I give it him back.
MC: And of course your dad had been bringing weapons you knew about them as well.
PS: Oh yeah. Well, anything mechanical I was interested in. And he went on to be a sergeant armourer. In the town itself and the suburbs they put big tanks in on the edge of the pavement or back on the pavement about oh, about that wide.
MC: About three foot wide. A yard wide.
PS: Yeah.
MC: A yard wide.
PS: Yeah. They did those in town anyway and quite a long bit of mesh over the top for water. And they also put iron water pipes down the edges of the pavement, about four inch for places you could stick a hose on. You know, in case of fire. So we had to be careful where we put the feet. But you got used to the darkness.
MC: Yeah.
PS: Yeah. And of course you had blackouts every night. People going around shouting, ‘Put that light out.’ And so you did like. But during the war a couple of mates of, mates of mine who were at the Boy Scouts like I was used to go down to the Sheffield Infirmary which was at the bottom of the hill and we used to go put the blackout up in the wards and that. As a service you know. Which was quite a walk down there and walk back because it’s very hill, Sheffield is very hilly. It’s, there are only two cities in the world with seven hills around. One is Sheffield. The other is Rome. So we were used to hills. I mean everywhere you went it was hilly and the transport of course was tram cars. And come rain, snow you know we would carry on. They had single decker one with a board across underneath at an angle which used to go along and clear the tracks. And then turn it around at the terminus, come back and go somewhere else. You know running backwards and forwards keeping the snow away. It —
MC: So growing up in Sheffield during the war then. What, you were in Sheffield all during the war.
PS: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So did you experience any of the bombing of Sheffield?
PS: Yes. Hitler decided to have a go at Sheffield because Sheffield was a steelworks. Biggest steelworks. So the, originally we just had the odd plane come over and drop a few bombs you know. Which wasn’t a nice thing to hear. You’d hear them whistle. If you heard them go bang you were alright [laughs] If you didn’t you weren’t. And when, when we, when we had the Sheffield blitz that was on, I’m not quite sure what night it was on. Thursday or Friday. They came over with incendiaries. Incendiary bombs mainly. There were some other bombs as well but they dropped what they called bread baskets of incendiaries. They were in a tall canister which flew open and all these bombs came out. They were solid magnesium. You could, as they burned that was it you know. But they put buckets of sand in various places so you could throw them on them. Stop them by cutting off our oxygen supply. When the, during the Blitz —
MC: Just sorry I was going to say did you spend much time in air raid shelters?
PS: Well, air raid shelters. We had, our house was a, was a detached house. There was, had been some stables at one time and then we got the driveway and then three houses to take around the corner. And of course the toilets were there so we hadn’t got much room. We hadn’t got a lot of room for an Anderson shelter. So they decided to, if anything happened we’d go through to the top, go through to the top house which is reinforced. So they, they dug a channel across the driveway and cut in to that cellar, and cut into our cellar, and cut into the next one until you got to the top. And they were about well you got a bit of shoulder room but they weren’t, they weren’t that tall. You had to go through on your hands and knees more or less and get to the first one and then go up the first one to the second one and so on. Which wasn’t very comfortable. But we got two, two Anderson shelter bunk beds in our cellar and my dad took some of the floor up in the front room and our house sloped so he put some bolts and things through the joists and some timbers and filled it with concrete so we could go down there instead of crawling through this lot. Because you could crawl through there and then you got the all clear went. You know.
MC: So you had to crawl through there on your own.
PS: Yeah. So we had somewhere to go on and we had two bunk beds which I had one and my sister had the other. And during the night of the Blitz when the bombs were coming down you could hear them whistle as they came down like and then, then they’d crash. Then you knew you were safe because it had gone off. We had a storm lantern hung on a beam and that swung like this you know with the, with the wind. Our house only suffered two things. One it fetched a big bit of the plaster off my dad’s ceiling in his bedroom and another room. But the ceilings in those days were lats and plaster. You know they put some lats up and then plastered them. So that all had to all be repaired. Then we had something called Essex board up at the windows which we used to put on. Put, turn these turn buttons because you had to do it yourself because it was a blackout every night. And it wasn’t —
MC: So, after the air raids did you used to go and explore the sites of the air raids?
PS: Yeah. I went down with my mother. We walked to town and there were no trams running because some of them had been hit or set on fire. So that was it, you know. The route is off. So we walked down and when we got to town, this I think, this was a morning. The first morning and the second morning after the Blitz and the Moor which was a big shopping centre round the centre of Sheffield that was all bombed. With Marks and Spencer’s and all the big shops all set on fire. And where the wind, windows used to be and some of them were these windows that were put in at the time which were curved so that there wasn’t any reflection. With all, I mean deflects the top down and blew the girders up and along the bottom was this glass that had been burned which had just come down saggy in a lump you know. And if you spit on it it went hisss. And that was right down, right down the Moor which was a shopping centre. So —
MC: Did you not, did you go out with your mates at all? You know. Friends. Collecting bits from the sites.
PS: Yeah. Well, the night after, the morning after the Blitz my sister and I went out with a bucket and got about three parts of it full with shrapnel that we’d picked up in the street in about a quarter of an hour. I mean they were bang bang bang bang above you at the time as the artillery went off. There was, on the opposite hillside an area which they put some rocket guns on. In a square. You know these things that went off. And they could, if they set them off they would be, like a square mile of the sky would be covered, covered with bombs because they set the distance to go off. But I don’t them remember going off. Not far away from where we lived there was our school and the local church and a, what did you call them? They sent these bombs. Came down by, with a, from a parachute which [unclear] and it could swing as it could go anywhere and the parachute itself was green and knitted. Like knitted nylon. Thick and heavy. And one, one went on the main road, not, came down on the main road not far from us and just missed the church and there were lumps of it everywhere you know. The parachute on somebody’s roof.
MC: Did you recover any of these bombs? These incendiary bombs?
PS: I recovered one. Yeah.
MC: Did you?
PS: Yeah. But I mean I left that house to another one and so I lost that. I lost everything I’d got like that.
MC: Did you get anything else? Did you got any?
PS: Well, we got some parts of a, there was an American fort, Flying Fortress came down in the woods and crashed. Well, it’s on the edge of the wood. One of the parks and I think they deliberately tried to avoid the known areas where the kids play and things like that and it just burned down to nothing and trees were burned and there was like a little river that flowed through. It was all muddy. So we would go and have a scrounge through that and I got a couple of bits of metal. Also got something which was a clip. And I later found out it was a parachute harness clip. Fastener. That’s gone. Everything’s gone with changing house you know. And happened that that was it. You know.
MC: So, how come you finished up with a hand grenade?
PS: Oh, my dad used to bring the bloody things home. In fact the chalk white. A couple of years ago I said, ‘What did you do with them hand grenades that you’d got?’ Because I found a box full in, over his garage. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I went to where the convent was like, and chucked them over their wall.’ Because there was a convent which was [pause] on the top of the hill on a slope. Because it was very hilly there. We used to go up a big hill, then a dip and then along and down another dip to get to the end of the main road. And that particular period was was coming up for Christmas and I’d been invited to a party by one of the lads at school. And that was up on the top of the hill. And so that was off. I mean you got plaster in your pudding and things like that.
MC: So the bombing obviously interfered with quite a few of your parties.
PS: Yeah. I mean I didn’t know at the time but the lady I eventually married was going to the same party and she lived further down the hill. Which I didn’t know because they’d moved from there into a brand new council house. And I met her at the Speedway I think. Sheffield Speedway. I don’t know if they’ve still got Sheffield Speedway going on but we used to go down on a Thursday night. But not during the war.
MC: So, I mean obviously the Germans were trying to bomb the steelworks.
PS: Well, that, that came later. I think it was a Thursday or Friday when they blitzed the town. Then they came back on the Sunday to go to the steelworks. And I believe that they were recalled to the base because of thick fog over the bases. So they took them back but they started going down from the, from the top. And all the steelworks went along by the River Don all the way to Doncaster and so they didn’t do as much damage as they could have done.
MC: No. So they didn’t do a lot of damage.
PS: If they’d got that lot there was only one firm there that made crankshafts for Spitfires. If they’d have got that it would have caused a lot of trouble in the war because that was defence. And —
MC: So you used to travel around a lot of the time by the trams.
PS: Yeah.
MC: Did they have any protection, you know?
PS: No. All they had was this mesh on the windows.
MC: Oh, oh yeah. Yes. To stop the glass shattering.
PS: Stop the glass. Yeah. But it caught fire a few of those, it were, some were scrapped. We got some from Edinburgh or somewhere like that I think. I mean all ours was fairly modern some of the stuff they sent us I think they were glad to get rid of it. But at least we’d got transport. It was in the middle town. They’d got this, they’d got this shopping centre. Right in the shopping centre where the road divided in to about four and all the big shops got burned. It looked a horrible mess. And it were like that for a long time after with weeds growing on it and etcetera. But —
MC: What was food like in, in that, during that period? Getting food.
PS: Well, you got rations.
MC: Did you, did you have to go out and get food for your parents?? Did they send you shopping?
PS: I used, I used to go shopping for vegetables because I used to look around what was going. If there was anything special like bananas, you know. Well, I think it’s our turn for the bananas this week, you know. Everything was in short supply. But we managed. The meat. I think you could have the ration was ten, ten pennyworth of meat. So we got, you didn’t get the best cuts because you wouldn’t get as much. Things like that.
MC: Yeah. The story about a turkey.
PS: We didn’t have a turkey.
MC: No. You didn’t have a turkey.
PS: No.
MC: Walking a turkey home.
PS: Oh. That was a friend of my dad’s got one. And he put a cord around its neck and brought it. Walked it down to our house. Knocked and came in and my mother said, ‘What they heck are you doing with that?’ You know.
MC: It’s lucky he didn’t get mugged for the turkey.
PS: Yeah. It was one of those with a big tail, you know. Big cock turkey. A bit further on the road we moved to after that place there was the Co-op. There were local shops at the corners of streets you know. Not like here. You could order your vegetables and go and get them. Somebody would bring them back in the wheelbarrow. But food was in short supply. But you know you had to make do with what you could get. And ice cream. I went to the cinema and had an ice cream and I think they made it out of potato or something like that. Tasted horrible. A block of ice cream, uugh. But we were in the, we went in one afternoon we went to the Palladium at, in Sheffield in our suburb and we were watching a film called, “Heidi.” It was a, you know a continental thing. Swiss or something. And during it, while we were watching this in the afternoon notice came up on the screen, “Air raid warning has just sounded.” If you want, which you may leave the room and come back when it’s, when it’s gone. Well, we sit out there for a while and thought well we’d better go out so we went out. Then we heard the all clear so we came back. And when we came back and sat down the film was still on and Heidi had got a big cauldron and she was making soup or something. And right across the middle of the screen comes the notice, “All clear.” Which was an very appropriate at the time. So —
MC: So what, well amongst your friends obviously you were a teenager growing up. Becoming a teenager during the war. What about antics you got up to as a young lad?
PS: Well, we always, we used to go fishing with fishing nets down at the River Lin which is at the bottom which goes, that river flows through more or less to Derbyshire. And not so far away there was an old quarry which we called the Bald Hills. And it came down in stages with a little, like an ash finish on. Just ashes. We used to go and play football up there. There was also tennis if you wanted it. We didn’t play tennis. Things like that. This party I went to well I was going to go to I later found out that the lady I was to marry was also going to this party. And I had no idea.
MC: So, did you meet her at that? Oh, you didn’t get to the party did you?
PS: No. I met her at the Speedway Club. That kind of thing I used to go on.
MC: Was this after the war or during the war?
PS: Yeah. I got married in 1952.
MC: Ah.
PS: Yeah.
MC: So how old were you when you left school?
PS: Well, I went to the, I took the eleven plus when I was ten. And I was eleven during the [pause] during the holidays. So I just got in and you took an exam to go to school and you had to put down where you would like to go. And in those days there was an intermediate school or a Grammar School. And I put down for about a couple of each. And I was eventually notified that I’d got through to Grammar School. ‘Which one do you want to go to?’ I said, well I mean, the one was the other side of town but there was one in town which used to be in the old days a pupil teacher centre and had been turned into a High School. So, I went there for a couple of years. Then my father said, ‘Well, I don’t know what you’re going to do when you finish school. You know, you’ve got to get a job. You’d be better taking an engineering course,’ because there was there was also ran a technical engineering course which I went on. I had to do another exam for that. They were all about examinations. Passed that and went there, and they hadn’t got as much equipment as they wanted because it was difficult to get the stuff. But they had a stove, the thing to melt steel which they never got around to. They had a workshop and we got, I made a seagrass stool in there. And as well as that, as well as woodwork which they taught us with the lathes they had two engineering rooms. One was machine shops, lathes which were used during the war by ladies making shelves. You used to see them come walking out like they would on a tea trolley only with shelves on. And which, that was one of the places we went to.
MC: Is this the story about — we’ve been told the story about the cook and the frying pan and tracer bullets. Is that —
PS: I’m not with you.
SB: This is from Jackie.
PS: Anyway, the [pause] I went, I went to this school and they had experienced people, not just teachers to come and teach. And we had about eight big lathes all with belt driven from above, you know. And the teacher used to remind you if you’d forgot to take the chuck key out with you before you started it. So [set the lathe up] otherwise you’d go flying across the room. And you go across and get somebody. Thumped on them on the shoulder, ‘Don’t forget to take the chuck key out mate.’ The next room to that was the room where you did pattern making and, no. No. That was that side. There was the we had a hangar workshop where they made various things. I made a spanner centre punch, plug gauge and things like that. And a hacksaw.
MC: And this was all part of your training?
PS: All part of your training. Yeah. They had a forge in there so when you made your spanner.
MC: How old would you be then?
PS: I left school when I was, just before I was sixteen. So you put your hard steel coating on and some stuff called kasenit. Used to put it on it and then put it in the fire. We had exams at the end, you know. And you had, you had to turn a piece of metal of a certain size in various sizes.
MC: Was this in a factory or a training school? A technical school.
PS: That was in school in town.
MC: At a school. A technical school.
PS: It had been a pupil teacher centre.
MC: Oh right.
PS: I mean during the war you’d seen the ladies come out of the main doors pushing a trolley with shelves on that they’d made. You know. For the war effort. So it was well equipped. We had precision grinders. It was a teaching unit you know. Really expert. How to do metal work. Made a hacksaw. And on the other, the other side the pattern making, we made we made patterns with a vice handle for holding the vice. When we took the final exam the teacher came around and looked at the mould I’d made and he ummed and he ahhed and he said, ‘Well, I can’t give you a hundred percent for this because if I do that means nobody can make it any better,’ which they couldn’t anyway. So I got ninety nine.
MC: Very good.
PS: And in the final exams I think I got five, five each teachings, five credits and a pass because we used to do French as well. I went, I’d written to the GPO and asked them if they’d got any vacancies. And I got a reply and had to go for an interview which I did. And about a fortnight after that they said the report you know so I didn’t have much of a summer holiday. I had to go to, to Otley to a training school. And while I was at the training school I got a letter saying that I was top of the school for the handicraft, and there was a, could I have a book. And I didn’t know what sort of book I wanted, you know, I mean. We were from Otley, up in Yorkshire. So I said I’ll have the money which I got five bob which I went to the town hall and bought a driving licence [laughs] Which was useful because you didn’t have to have a test at that time. There were no tests. I mean you couldn’t spare people to training and tests. But by the time they started that I’d been driving for about two years I think with this motorbike I’d got and so I kept that. Until I got my call up.
MC: Ah, call up. Yes. So you did National Service, did you?
PS: National Service. Yeah. It was my birthday in July and I had to go to Pontefract Barracks for training. In December I think. And of course you did all what was —
MC: This was for the army, was it?
PS: Well, it was yeah it was the army but you didn’t know where you were going. It was, when I had the medical and they said, ‘Well, what would you like to go in?’ And I said I’d like to go in the Navy and so I had to go and have the interview with a sailor with all his doings on like and he were asking what I could do and what [pause] how far I could turn steel, you know. What were the distances you could do it in, you know. And I said oh [about a thou, a half thou.] And he said anyway he gave me a written test to do. Which I did that. He read through it. He said, ‘Well, yeah. We can take you on but you’ll have to sign on for three years instead of two.’ So I thought well I can’t do that because I don’t know whether I could get my job back. Because you were guaranteed your job back. So I had to turn that down. They sent me to Catterick where we all passed out. And Catterick was a Royal Signals really. They were all there. Not the Tank Corps like there is now. Nearly everybody was Post Office, telephone. And I did that and then they sent us to Dalton Airfield. An old, an old camp. Ready for, ready for, oh they asked if I wanted to go, they asked they wanted twelve people to go to Germany to learn to be A tradesman. There was A, B and C. And it was a December time, you know. And December time in Catterick is terrible. It’s bloody cold up there. So I volunteered and I was accepted so twelve of us went to this old RAF camp where there was just little tortoise stoves in the, in the huts. And we used to go, go around to the huts, other huts that weren’t in use and pull some timber off. Pulled a line up and tried to warm the place up. Went down to the dance in Thirsk. As we walked down the railway line to get there and they stamped, stamped your wrist when you went with your pass out. Mayor of Pontefract’s something they formed earlier on. And coming back from there there was some lads who were, I think they’d volunteered for the Air Force signals. And we were coming up this, like an alleyway and they were vaulting over these standards you know to stop the vehicles going down. One of them got hung up and down with his flies [laughs] ‘Get me off.’ So we had a bit of fun. Then we went up there and they then took us by train to Empire, Empire Parkstone dock. Down there. Not so far from London. Took us across to the continent in a troop ship. Then we were just poles inside. Your bed would drop down, you know where it was. Most of the lads were playing card games on the way there. And we got to the other side. And went to the toilets and talk about toilets on the dockside. They were just two rows of toilets facing each other. No doors and there was an earthenware trough which we went past them all you know. Some of the lads messing about lit some paper and it floated down you know and singed you.
MC: So where did you finish up in Germany?
PS: Well, I went to [pause] where did I finish up? I finished up at Herford. Eventually. First of all we went to the, an RAF camp which was the RAF regiment at Gütersloh.
MC: Oh, Gütersloh. Yeah.
PS: They weren’t as smart as us, you know. They didn’t, they had their caps to here. With us if you haven’t got your cap on that was it. But we went into Bielefeld one day and I heard this rattling. I turned around and had a look and there was a lady coming down the street. It were all cobbles, you know. Anyroad, at this time and she’d no tyres in this bicycle but she’d got coiled springs one in the front and one In the back which was you know going up and down as she rode. Rattled down the street in this push bike. So you can tell what a state they were in. We were paid in what they called BAFSV. British Armed Forces Service Vouchers. You weren’t, you didn’t get any German currency unless you withdrew it especially and you put it in your paybook. We got some though because we went to the barber’s one day. Three of us and sat down at a barber’s and there they had like a double wooden thing just like a couple of big rulers which clipped on the edge of the paper, you know, looking through this. A chap got up and went and sat in the, in the chair. The barber got his tackle and put the whole of his head, froth all over his head to give him a shave like. Then he gets the cut throat razor out I thought oh crikey. And he shaved the top of his, he hadn’t got much on and shaved the top of his head. And then we paid him in cigarettes. And we worked it out that five of us could have a haircut for one cigarette. Gave us all, you know. They’d got nothing.
MC: So did you see much of the results of the bombing in Germany when you were there?
PS: Yes. The buildings had been knocked down. They were starting to put them back up again. Well piled up, piled all the stuff up and they were starting to rebuild. And that’s when I understood more the term Jerry built. Because they just slapped some cement on a brick and pointed them all up afterwards. They didn’t point them it at the same time. And oh, on the way out at first we went by train. We went past a viaduct. What do you call that? I can’t remember just at the moment.
MC: Was it one we bombed?
PS: Hmmn?
MC: Was it one we bombed?
PS: Yes. That was the one the hit with the biggest bomb.
MC: Bielefeld.
PS: Bielefeld. Yes. That’s it. Bielefeld Viaduct. I got, took a photograph of that from long distance.
MC: So you did a bit of travelling around while you were there.
PS: Yeah. I got as far as the checkpoint at Berlin. Because we had a radio station working, an ordinary radio station and they wanted some supplies so we took them out. But we could only go so far. We went to the American checkpoint. A half a mile further on was a British checkpoint. They were half a mile back. The yanks. We took some stuff out because we had a radio set working to, to Berlin. The radio sets we used they couldn’t, they couldn’t use them for that because when I, when I finished my course, training course in Germany. This, the course in about five months before you passed out and they were teaching you to be either a line mechanic which was a [unclear] equipment and radio mechanics and there were three, there were three things. Line, radio and telegraph. So, so they give us this section of it. The airfield. There were WAAFs on the airfield. Surrounded by barbed wire. And we had, we had to spruce up our training. Of course we had to march to through the town with your rifles and everything. I think it was just say it’s a warning like. So they had us out every day in the cold. Going through various moves because they told us how to move your rifle from one shoulder to the other. I know when you’re trailing arms by your side they’re heavy them rifles and I, you changed it from one to the other, and went through the town. We led the Air Force because we were senior to them and it was, it was quite a decent barracks. It had got double glazing. They had double glazing when we go there. We took them down when we got there. They took them down. Because it got warm took the outside panels down because we had to clean the glass. So we did that. And every morning we had to go for a two mile run. You know shorts and [unclear] running around the camp.
MC: So eventually I believe you got to Möhne Dam as well.
PS: Yeah. There was a leave centre at the Möhne Dam and we got, we had the driver to, we had the driver for the trip. And he drove whatever he was supposed to drive and he got us permission to go to Möhne Dam which was, which was rebuilt.
MC: O. It was rebuilt was it?
PS: Oh they didn’t take long to get that put back.
MC: You walked around it did you?
PS: No. We went around, we went around on a push bike. We’d been posted the night before so we got our pushbikes and we went all the way around it.
MC: Where did you get your bikes from?
PS: From the leave centre.
MC: Oh, right. They did have them did they?
PS: They had them on there to use. I’ve a photograph somewhere of when we’re on the wall which had been replaced. A young couple on a boat. Little [pause] two feet I think.
MC: Rowing boat type thing.
PS: In front of the first one was a wind up gramophone playing records as we went down the Möhne Dam. But we went down there a couple of times.
MC: You got down to the Black Forest.
PS: Yeah. We went to [pause] I can’t remember what they called it now. Another leave centre we went to and you were just there couple of nights. But, and I fell asleep in the truck coming back. When I woke up everything was in darkness and I was laid on the floor on the back of this two ton bloody truck. So I had to get to, get to my barrack room without this sentry seeing me because we had a sentry at the gate and we had a prowler. The other one used to prowl around. And they said, ‘Who goes there?’ ‘It’s only me.’ You know. I just walked up to him. But we, you had a to do a guard every so often. Two on and four off.
MC: So in the Black Forest tell me about the, you were collecting stuff to put under the COs bed somebody tells me.
PS: Oh, that wasn’t, yeah but what we finished up with, you know when they trained us on the radio stuff they put us in a troop. And it was [pause] it was radio telephones. They call them a ten set and we had these mirrors, you know. These big mirrors where we used to pipe the, pipe the mesh out of whatever you’re doing from the inside of this trailer and they got ten, ten pulses so you can have running across all the time so you can have ten connections running. And we went out into no man’s land. I mean you had to get high enough up to get as far, as far as you could. I mean there were two about that big. And we went to one and as we were building this. There was a, as we were building this there was a hill that we went on called [unclear]. Which was a monument at the top of the hill which was some Germans lived in. A German family. And we, we come in, we got that room in there, put the generator in the garage place at the side because you get about you could light two lights and that was all the supply of electric. So we cut a hole in in the window frame, push a cable through and we had a petrol driven generator. Well, the old lady came up. All the snow in winter was going to come through that bloody hole. And one day one of the lads decided to repair one of his boots and he stuck it on the end of the bedpost and he’s hammering away, you know putting some studs in. And she came up ohhh well the plaster was going down in her old boy’s dinner. But we got through and put it in. But she said, I mean there were five of us living there and she’d do a, do a hotpot for us. You know. For the five. And apparently the Russians had been there before us and they could have one of these each. Like gannets. And one day she said she heard the banging upstairs and went up to have a look. One of these Russians was knocking a hole in the wall. She asked them what he was doing. He wanted water. Because he’d seen her turn the tap on downstairs he thought he could get water out of the wall and he was chopping a hole in the wall. This was the mentality of the Russians. I mean they hadn’t seen things like that.
MC: So where does the COs bed come into this?
PS: Oh, that was in the [pause] well while we were there the only transport we’d got was a fifteen hundred weight shell which you went up so far and then you went in a shell and up around it and away. In this shell hole, at the side of the shell was a small tank with shells around it. You know. Inside. And a shell hole full of rifles. Thrown the rifles in. Taken, taken the works out. And we was up and down in the truck. And we, I mean the toilet was already there when I got there because there had been some people before us and they’d got a wooden fish, wooden [pause] I don’t know what you call it. Case off some, off a sixty foot steel tower we’d got with the [unclear] guys on you know who you wouldn’t expect. And we used to, we made an oven out of a piece of tank. A flat piece of tank. And we got some cement from the Germans in a swap sort of thing, cut out a trough and we had a big burner like it was a blow lamp with about four inches diameter plate. Put that at one end and a piece of plate on the other end. We could cook on that. And we put some covers around it and a roof on it and we were nice and warm in there during the day. During the night of course while you were laying in bed your breath was freezing on the canvas so you had a nice white circle when you woke up. And we used to have to break, break the ice in this water bale, water container either before we went to bed or in the morning so we could have a cup of tea. The only place we could water from was the local village pub. No. The local village. It was a farmer’s, I think. We had a water carrier we dragged down there and filled it but it was always icy. You could always throw some petrol under it and set fire to it. But one of the lads, the driver actually he was a bit of a lad. We brought some of this ammunition, German ammunition into the tent which was forbidden you know and filled the German helmet and put it under the corporal’s bed. He didn’t know it were there until he would have gone crackers.
MC: So what was in it you put under the bed?
PS: Hmmn?
MC: What was in it you put under the bed?
PS: Sten gun.
MC: Oh.
PS: They were all, we were all armed. Some had got rifles and that and I had a sten gun and I just hung it underneath. I got a few rounds, you know. I think somebody let a few rounds off before that. But we used to put a canister on a on a branch with oil in and set fire to it have a nice flame on it. Shoot it down with a 303. I mean there were only five of us. You couldn’t put a guard up when you’ve only five people. I mean they’d never been off. You’d never have got an ounce of sleep. So we used to shove a rifle through the flap of the tent and let a couple of rounds off at night.
MC: So, what is the story about the chef and the frying pan catching bullets?
SB: On top of the tower.
MC: On top of the tower.
SB: Radio tower.
MC: You tell the story about —
SB: Firing rounds on the chef.
PS: We had a piece of tubing. Steel tubing which was blocked at one end and you know we’d got stacks of bullets from this corner where the tank got knocked out and the belts of ammunition. He took some up. He used to go up the tower. We had a sixty foot tower. Took the ladder vertical and then around and up again to the top to set it up. He used to sit up there and somebody would put, get the steel tube we’d got, get it hot and put a round in and, you know it would fire. Put them in backwards way around so that the bullet cases were going up to him and he were trying to catch him on top of a sixty foot tower. The other bloke wouldn’t go up it. ‘No. I’m not going up there, he says.’ When you got up there was railings about ten inches and steel rods across. You know, sixty foot up. And when we went to that place [unclear] where the Germans lived we had to put, haul this thing up to the railings that they got that went around the tower. It was called [unclear] and we had to haul this up there and site it which was difficult because you know you’d get your compass sideways and go across the front of the ditches. That was, that was nothing at either side. So we had to try and do it from down below. You know. Bob your head up and down but we got it through.
MC: So how long were you in Germany then?
PS: Well, from leaving.
MC: For all your National Service you were in Germany.
PS: All of it. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PS: I went to [pause] Lüneburg was it? Yeah. On the north coast. I got ten days just before I came out. I got ten days leave. Local leave. And I’d been knocking about with a girl whose father had been posted to Germany. So they said, ‘Come up,’ like. So I applied for my holiday and I had my holiday when there was a big scheme on. All the British Army had arrived and was in it apart from me. I were waiting at the camp gates for control commission bus because there weren’t any German buses out that way. And this big staff car pulls up and a lady driving. This bloke with all this stuff on you know. All this gold. He said, ‘Where are you going soldier?’ I said, ‘Oh,’ I’m going to Bad Oeynhausen sir to catch a train.’ ‘Jump in,’ he said. He took me all the way to Bad Oeynhausen. Everybody else was at war, you know [laughs] playing soldiers. So we got there and got on the train, sat down and had lunch on the train and got a bottle of beer, you know. All on the house. I stopped there all week with this girl who lived not so far from [unclear] And when the week was over I got this train ticket to go back, catch it about 7 o’clock in the morning. I’m not going to get down to the station at 7 o’clock in the morning. So I found there was a later train. He took me down to the station and I got in a carriage. Only me in it. Took my belt off, you know and my jacket and my hat. Sat there next to the window. The door opens and the conductor comes. Apologises and shuts it. So I went all the way from Lubeck to Herford free of charge as they say. Went on another free of charge thing —
MC: So, tell me, as a British soldier in Germany how were you treated by the Germans? And how did you find them?
PS: Alright actually. Because at Christmas we went down to this local pub where we was getting water. A little village. We were down there one day and this girl came across like and we were social and we went down there. We down on New Year’s Eve. We went before that it were one of their birthdays the next weekend. ‘Can you come to our birthday?’ So I said, ‘Yeah. We can come to your birthday.’ And they’d got all sorts of pies that they’d made. You know. Cherry pies. And dancing with them you know. They thought it were great. So we went [pause] No. We went again at New Year. And I mean they were giving you a glass of schnapps, you know. We weren’t fit to get back to the camp. We had to ring somebody up to bring, bring the truck down to fetch us. But everybody were alright.
MC: So you got treated fairly well.
PS: Yeah. I mean the girls were very friendly. Very friendly.
MC: He says with a smile on his face.
PS: Yeah. What was I going to say?
MC: So, so that was your time in Germany. Thinking back a little bit I never asked you at the beginning about any brothers and sisters.
PS: Yeah I’ve got, I had a brother and one sister didn’t I? One brother. One sister. He was about ten years younger than me so I didn’t see much of him.
MC: And your sister? She, she was of a similar age to you?
PS: Yeah. She was about fifteen months older than me. She’s still alive. She’s in a care home at [pause]
SB: Blackpool.
PS: Near Blackpool anyway.
MC: Yeah.
PS: She can’t see anything.
MC: So did you spend a lot of time with her as a child at home?
PS: Not particularly. I used to be out with the lads you know playing football and —
MC: I’m working up to a story of snails and putting salt on them.
PS: Oh, that was when we were about so high. When she, when she walked up the garden path. The garden paths then were just slabs of stone and slabs at either side and two, three four houses in each block.
MC: Yeah.
PS: And a gate in the middle. Well, a door. A big heavy door that closed. My uncle had written on the back, “This door shuts. Try it.” Chokes it. My sister went around collecting snails, you know. To come out of the garden at the side. And I were only little. I didn’t know about it at the time but she was putting salt on them I started eating the bloody things ‘til they stopped me. So I have seen a bit of life.
MC: Certainly have. Certainly have. Yeah. So, coming back.
PS: Oh, and I —
MC: Sorry.
PS: Went to hospital once in Germany. I was fed up of going on parade so I thought I’d have a bit of time off. I had a couple of cysts behind my ear so I went and reported them to the medics. They said, ‘Oh, we’ll take them off. But we’ll get a truck to take you to RAF Rinteln they called it. Be down at the gates, barrack gates by 10 o’clock and we’ll run you up there. Or 9 o’clock or something like that. Anyway, I went down and this thing never turned up. So I went to guard room and told them. ‘Oh, they’ve forgotten.’ So they got this jeep and went up the autobahn like a bloody rocket. We were going up the autobahn and a bloke pulls alongside, he said, ‘Your back wheels are doing, going like this.’ We said, ‘We know.’ You know. I mean the speedometer wouldn’t go any faster. Open topped jeep. But I got about three or four days off of parades. We were on parade once we were doing, they decided that they were going to do a march through the town, you know. Just letting them know that we were here and we did our training. Even the RAF did the training. Had the caps on and that. We couldn’t go anywhere without a cap on you know. Had to have it on all the time. They taught us how to change, change arms. We’d got a trail from that and that. I recently went to the bomber places and, you know the one that don’t fly and one of my grandsons, my great grandson looking at these things, ‘Oh look. 303 rifle there,’ like. I’ll show you. I couldn’t pick the bloody thing up now. I used to chuck it about before. I was I was a captain of the shooting team for a while. Some of the officers were bloody terrible with a bren gun. So I was nominated.
MC: So you had your marksman’s badge.
PS: Yeah. Well, I didn’t get the badge but I had the satisfaction to know that I was the captain.
MC: So you came home from Germany. And then when did you meet your wife? You said you knew her before you went to Germany.
PS: No. I didn’t marry that one. I came home. I met this lady at the Speedway Club. Speedway Supporter’s Club. In fact, I think there were two or three were looking to see if they could get my attention. I used to play the records for dancing and got talking to this girl and I’d be going down on my motorbike so I took her home on my motorbike. Well, not quite home. ‘I’ll get off before we get there because I don’t want my dad see me on this.’ [laughs] And that blossomed and we got married.
MC: So you had quite a following.
PS: Oh yeah.
MC: Of ladies.
PS: I was popular with the ladies. But I mean when we went [pause] oh it’s, as well to be going to the Möhne Dam we went to another place and where they got dancing and everything. And of course we were dancing with them and kissing them and all that. And saw them again the next afternoon. We didn’t see them again after that. It’s all right for you laughing. We didn’t [unclear] it was in the Black Forest.
MC: Yeah.
PS: Yeah. It was, it was nice there.
MC: And these were German girls.
PS: Yeah. Oh yeah. Fish a bit of paper out and write their name and address on and trusted you to do yours. Expecting you to. I mean there was a shortage of men. We killed that many. So they, if they could get a bloke fair enough but, yeah. They were friendly.
MC: So when you came back from Germany you went back in to your old job.
PS: Yeah. Yeah. Went back. Well. I’d finished my two year training course before I went. They put me in electric light and power. So I did about six months on that installing and maintaining the, maintaining all the batteries and that for the, for the [trunk call lists] and keeping the batteries full up, full up with evaporated and each cell two volts would be about from there to other side of them plants. About that wide and about that deep. Two volts. Very high capacity and they’d got wooden boxes lead lined.
MC: So you’re talking about what? About two metres wide.
PS: Yeah.
MC: Two yards wide by about a foot deep. A yard deep.
PS: Oh, they were deep. I mean the contractors used to put them in and when they put them in they put a glass tubes between them as insulators and put them in plate by plate and then melted the lead frame on to the [unclear] I mean the water was so good that we could use it in batteries. You can’t here because there’s too much lime in it but in Sheffield you could use it for.
MC: [unclear]
PS: Yeah. Fill it up by hosepipe. We used to [pause] on maintenance we maintained stamp set milling machines that they had in the walls. Stamp cancelling machines. They put them through, the letters through and conveyers, lifts. Everything electrical we did. And we put at Rotherham we put new lighting in because it was a downstairs sorting office with ordinary, ordinary lights. We put the first lot of fluorescents in there when they got [unclear]. Right along these bays where you could see where you were going. When we switched them on it was just as we were taking the roof off.
MC: Yeah. That’s great, Peter. I just, I just want to talk about a couple of other things. You went through, you went through the war and obviously you experienced the, what the RAF were doing. What did you think of the job that Bomber Command did? Were you much, did you give much thought to that?
PS: I didn’t see much of them until nearly the end. I’m not quite sure whether it’s nearly the end of the war but I mean the planes were coming over. [unclear] planes it was that would come, and the sirens used to go off.
MC: Did you get much news of what they were during the war?
PS: No. Not a lot.
MC: I mean post-war you knew what they were doing. Or what they’d been doing.
PS: We were. I don’t know quite sure what, sure when it was we went to Bridlington. Stopped there and there were three airfields near there I think. One had got this FIDO with the paraffin in the pipes around to disperse the fog. One evening we saw, saw these flames going across. I’m not quite sure when it was. It might have been near the end of the war. But I don’t know whether it had finished then.
MC: Do you think Bomber Command did a good job?
PS: Oh, they did. I mean I went to Hamburg.
MC: Oh yeah.
PS: By train, you know on the way to Lubeck to see this young lady because her dad was a sergeant you see and that was on the, on the, on our border with the Germans.
MC: Yeah.
PS: And at Lubeck it’s like a port. And went via Hamburg. Coming back, oh I went and caught the train. I went and sat down. A chap came and asked us what we wanted for lunch, you know. There was a butler there. This was all on the, all on the forces. So fair enough. When it came time to come back the train was about half past seven in the morning. I thought well I’m not travelling at half past seven in the morning. So her dad took me down to the station later on from their home. And I got on the train. It wasn’t a troop train. It was just an ordinary German train. Got in this carriage. There was only me in. Took my jacket undid my jacket took my belt off and relaxed like. All of a sudden the carriage door opens and there was this German porter there you know and he apologised and shut the door.
MC: So you say you went to Hamburg. You saw Hamburg.
PS: Then I, that was I hadn’t got a ticket. So we saw what was left of Hamburg at the time. The other side of the train I was you just looked and it was all a mess. I’ll give the Germans their due a lot of, a lot of nearly everything well everything I saw that had been wrecked was put back exactly as it was. I mean Cologne Cathedral was bombed. That was brought back. I went to another one and —
[phone ringtone]
MC: Sorry, I thought I’d put that on silent.
PS: That wasn’t me. Where else did I go to?
MC: Yeah. You were talking about Hamburg and the bombings and the ruins and the Germans and how they repaired everything. You know.
PS: Yeah. Apparently, there was one town we went to afterwards you know as civilians. We were told that they said to the Yanks they would surrender this town if they didn’t bomb it. Because, before the Yanks went in anyway they just blasted away. That was it. We did a, we went in a train holiday through Germany and [pause] just a minute. Oh, I went to Nuremberg.
MC: Oh, you certainly got around in Germany.
PS: Yeah. This was after the war. After the war.
MC: Oh right, ok.
PS: Went to Nuremberg and Nuremberg didn’t exist after the British had bombed it. The city. The old walled city. But when we got there there was only one. Everything was put back as it was. A chap had made a model of it but they knew what was what. And I’ll give them their due the Germans everything they put back after the war unless you’d a place like Hamburg which was nothing left they built it back to what it was originally. I mean the church was you know high at one end and next to nothing at the other. You couldn’t tell it had been rebuilt. There was a lot of lovely architecture. We destroyed it and they put it back up. Not here. We get all these so called architects put up all sorts of rubbish don’t they? It’s a clean city. I went on an overhead tram. It’s the only place there is one. These girls who were, we had a couple of girls used to come up to the camp. They were the ones that we would dance with in the village. They took us down there and they’d got an overhead railway which hung and it went along over the river. It’s still there.
MC: Oh.
PS: Which was an experience. We didn’t pay. You just got on. They don’t queue either. The Germans don’t queue for anything. I mean you go to a bus stop and its who gets on can get on while somebody else is trying to get off. In fact, we went on holiday in [pause] was it Croatia, I think? And there were some Germans there and they called you into the restaurant and these Germans came and you know and the Yugoslavs said, ‘Out. Wait your turn. I’ll tell you where you’re going to sit. You’ve been allocated a seat.’ And they all went out but they were bloody gluttons. They had a lot of muscles. It was like that.
[recording paused]
MC: Pushbike. Going down the street on a pushbike.
PS: Yeah. Well, it was a lady actually. I heard this rattle. This was in the first place we went to and I turned around and looked and there was this lady coming down the street on her pushbike. No tyres. And she’d got coil springs. One in the back and one in the front and of course it’s bellying out as you, as you, centrifugal force but it rattled. That’s all they had. No tyres. No nothing.
MC: Nothing. No.
PS: I mean, coffee. Coffee was a good currency. Cigarettes was a good currency. Five haircuts for a [unclear]. The girls were very friendly as well. You know. They’d give you their name and address. I think they were short of blokes. They’d had so many killed.
MC: Yeah. You said that. Yeah.
PS: There was a lake up there.
MC: Finish off. We’ll just finish off, Peter. And the other thing I did, I was going to mention I believe you’ve got a bit of a musical talent as well.
PS: Well, I had.
MC: You had. Did you play? Did you enjoy music when you was a child or was that later life?
PS: No. They tried to get me to, to teach me piano but I never got around to it. I was a bugler in the Scouts.
MC: Oh, that would. Yeah. Anyway, thank you for your time, Peter.
PS: You’ll find something.
MC: That was very good. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Peter Swallow
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-09-14
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASwallowRP180914, PSwallowRP1801
Format
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01:27:59 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Sheffield
Germany
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1952
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Swallow was born in Sheffield in 1929, one of three children. He recalls hearing Mr Chamberlain’s declaration of war broadcast as a schoolchild. His father, a plumber, volunteered as a member of the Local Defence Volunteers, eventually becoming a sergeant armourer. Peter remembers his father bringing home a Thompson sub-machine gun, a sticky bomb and grenades. War-time life in Sheffield is described including blackout arrangements, details of car lighting, firefighting water tanks and pipes, and rationing. Peter started at a grammar school after passing his 11+ exams, but then moved on to an engineering course. It was well equipped, and the lathes were used to manufacture shells by women workers. When not at school or being taught at home, Peter went fishing, playing football or as a Boy Scout, helping put up the blackout covers in the hospital. His father constructed an air raid shelter in the cellar of their house to protect them from the bombing, and Peter describes the aftermath of air attacks with details of fires and destroyed buildings in the city centre. He went out with a bucket and collected spent shrapnel and incendiaries after the attacks. After passing his engineering exams he got a job with the General Post Office. After the war he received his National Service call-up and served his two years in Germany with Royal Signals. He relates the camp he was based in, what they got up to in leisure time and his various travels around post-war Germany. On demobilisation he returned to his job with the GPO and married in 1952.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
bombing
Chamberlain, Neville (1869-1940)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
firefighting
home front
Home Guard
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/697/10100/ABassettFG180517.1.mp3
c76a4674418dcf52e322e714612bd4d8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bassett, Frank Gerald
F G Bassett
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Frank Bassett (b. 1924 1860826 Royal Air Force).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bassett, FG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FB: It was bloody hard work humping bombs out for them.
AC: Right.
FB: Good job though. Good old blokes.
AC: So, I’ve got to, I’ve got to do an introduction. I’m, I’m Andrew Cowley. I’m from the International Bomber Command Centre. I’m interviewing Frank Bassett.
FB: Yeah.
AC: And also here are his son Gary Bassett and his granddaughter, Helen Howard.
FB: Right.
AC: It’s, we’re at his [redacted] It’s the 17th of May 2018 which is the seventy fifth anniversary of the Dambusters raid.
FB: Christ.
AC: And it’s 10.32. So Frank, I’m going to put some questions to you, but before we get on to the RAF just tell me about, a bit, a little bit about your childhood, your family, where you went to school, how you came to join up.
FB: I went to school at Wood Street School, Woolwich. When I left there, I went straight to a firm that I was going to learn a trade with. That would be [unclear] case making and all that. From there, I stayed there until I done a silly thing. Decided that I’d join the RAF [laughs] I don’t know why because I was already in the Home Guard and things like that and I was only about sixteen then. I was about eighteen when I went in the RAF, and where? I can’t even think where. I know it wasn’t too long before, where you are down in, I can’t even think of the names. I couldn’t even tell you the names of the ‘dromes there. But I was in the bomb dump there, or in the armoury and unfortunately that was another silly mistake. Apart from where we did the most work and it was bloody heaviest too. And where were we talking? I couldn’t even tell you most of the ‘dromes I’ve been on. But when you think we’re talking about when I was eighteen and I’m now forty five [laughs] ninety four. So that gives you an idea, you know, but I have to say that. Well, I don’t know. I suppose I was a bit silly at the time, but I thought well both my brothers were in the Army and I thought well, although I’ve got a trade here that’s alright. They, when I, when I told them they said, ‘Oh don’t worry about it. You won’t have to.’ I said, ‘But I want to stay.’ ‘What?’ I was learning a trade there. So, I said, ‘Well, I aint going to.’ Cor, Christ. So, they said, ‘Well, it’s up to you.’ And I left there and I went in the RAF and when I came out although I’d still about three years to do they said, ‘That’s alright. You can come straight in as what you’d been trained in.’ So that was alright as far as that go. But I can only remember I was doing fire watching and in the Home Guard and when I think you know, what’s the matter with me? And when I came out I went back to my old job again. And when I was in the RAF, apart from doing my training, where was that now? One of those coastal places. Anyway, most of the time I spent in, apart from going abroad I spent in where you are now in, I’m trying to think. Was there just one ‘drome there? But it was a Bomber Command one. You know. And as far as I’m concerned I don’t think I was always, well I would be if I was in aerodromes and that, that’s where you’re going to be isn’t it? Humping bombs about. And bloody hard work I have to say but so, but I don’t know why. I suppose I went in there as a kid and as you know there’s AC1 and AC2 and all that lot and I was a corporal when I came out. So, I was still only twenty four. So that’s not bad going really I don’t think. And I have to say that to be honest I think they were a good lot really, you know. I wasn’t keen on going in the Army although I’d been in the Home Guard and that. But yeah, they was quite nice and I think 617 was a really good squadron. The only thing is that as I say as far as I was concerned it, it meant getting bombs out the bomb dump, loading them up and then getting them out of there and of course the squadron blokes put them on but that’s the easy part, wasn’t it? And then we’d have to unload more when they came in and if they was a bit late at night we wouldn’t get no dinner until, I don’t know about 8 or 9 o’clock at night so, but I was only young so it didn’t really worry me. But I think that as I say I thought 617 was a really, that was one of the strong ones, weren’t it? They were really good them blokes, I reckon. Very nice fellas. So was, aircrews and that. But as I say, perhaps ‘cos I was a bit young. Perhaps I should have chosen something a little bit better but there you go. I chose the RAF and that’s it.
AC: Was there a reason you chose the RAF?
FB: It was strange really because I was, as I say I was in the Home Guard, which was Army and no I never thought about it but for some reason or other. I don’t know. Perhaps it’s because it’s a young lot wasn’t it? You know. And somehow or other I took to a fancy to it. And I soon learned better of course, but I, I really believe that they are, so was the Army I suppose and the Navy but I mean when you look at some of these kids nowadays, or these idiots as I call them no wonder the Germans said, ‘Christ [unclear] the only good was the Army.’ No. I think I quite liked it and what did I do? About four years I suppose. So, but I can’t say as I’ve got any complaints. I didn’t get into any trouble but I also didn’t do silly things which I think was quite good. And I liked Lincolnshire. That was quite good.
AC: Did you have any choice about the job in the RAF?
FB: Well, yeah actually we did but I don’t know. Well, of course I’d experienced the bombing at home, but when I went to the recruiting place they said, ‘What do I want to join the RAF for?’ and I thought as a young, a young, that’s sounds alright. So I said, ‘Yeah, I wouldn’t mind the RAF.’ And to be honest I haven’t got a bad word to say about them. Not like some blokes do, you know. I quite liked it even though I got in the wrong lot. Getting in the Army, by Christ. I should have, have gone in the office or something like that. Doing nothing [laughs] But no, I think they were a good lot of blokes, and I think 617 Squadron really were a fine lot. Well, they all were really. But they were a nice lot of blokes, I think.
AC: Did, did you get a choice of about whether you wanted to be an armourer or anything else in the RAF?
FB: I was in the RAF.
AC: No. Did you get a choice about what you wanted to do in the RAF?
FB: I couldn’t tell you now. For some reason or other I can remember roughly going to one of the ‘dromes and they said, ‘Well, we need blokes in the bomb dump.’ So [laughs] if they’d have said, ‘We need blokes in the café,’ I suppose I would have been in the café. No. So I got used and I had a few friends there and that’s it. So, I thought it was quite good. I don’t think that was a bad I say. Well, I would say that but I do think they were a good lot. There was none of this you know like some blokes they don’t want to be. As a matter of fact, there must be because when I had my photo taken they wouldn’t allow. ‘Your hat’s not on right.’ [laughs] but I was about twenty something then, I suppose.
AC: So, can you, can you describe to me a typical day for you in the armoury?
FB: A miserable day?
AC: A typical.
FB: A typical day. Oh. Well, we come out from the billet. We’d go down to the armoury. We’d be told what had to be done. If there’s anything going out that day there could well be a couple of lorries coming in with bombs on board which meant of course you had to do that. So therefore, you didn’t have a nice little job sitting somewhere. You’d do that. You’d have to make sure everything was as it was and it was hard work. I mean, you probably know yourself you get those long sodding bombs and you get one bloke on each end. It’s not easy. And then you get the hard ones where you’ve got a crane. And to be honest we never used that crane. You see you’ve got a crane there, a lift there. Nobody ever touched it. All done, done by hand. And when I think about well, I don’t know get four or five of you on it. That’s not bad. But you have to remember I was only twenty or so if I was about forty something I might have had a different view. But I thought they was, I thought they was quite good. I liked the places, and I suppose in a way just because you was in the Army didn’t mean you didn’t have anything else to do. Oh yes you did. When there was other things there you might be, I don’t know, route marches, or, whatever else had to be done. But like, as I say I was only young then so it didn’t worry me.
AC: Good.
FB: And where I worked wasn’t a piece of cake so it never worried me. So —
AC: Just going, you mentioned your billet. What was that like?
FB: Well, I had various billets but I have to say even about that for a billet it’s not bad. I don’t know what the Army’s like but this wasn’t bad. I mean it wasn’t like a hotel but [laughs] but the billets were alright. And you had to keep the place clean but I think that’s a good thing because I even say it to the kids sometimes if you’re, if you’re not organised you’re just a rabble and I don’t think the RAF was a rabble. Or any of the other services. And I found that most of the blokes, providing you were sensible you was fine. None of this old [moaning] None of that. As I told these I do have to have to have a bit of a laugh sometimes because I remember a bloke coming along the road and he said, ‘Oh, I want to get a paper.’ He said, ‘It does fold up I suppose.’ There’s all these blokes coming along and he said, ‘Ah, just a minute mate. Where do you get a paper?’ ‘Mate? Mate,’ he said, ‘What do you think they are? Report to the guardroom.’ But I mean, they weren’t all that bad really but I mean as I said before I do believe if you don’t have discipline it’s just a bloody rabble. And apart from, I don’t like to say that, apart from the German Army the British Army is the best in the world. That’s my one. I’m sure the RAF is also [laughs] alright. But no. I did my bit quietly really. I was glad to get home mind you but I went to Palestine and Egypt and that but I don’t know, you know.
AC: Did, did you have any contact with the aircrew?
FB: Not an awful lot because you have to remember the crews are out there. Me and my comrades were down in the bomb dump, and it wasn’t just a question of, ‘Oh, well that’s alright then. We haven’t got anything coming.’ It wasn’t like that as you probably know. There was bombs coming in all the time for you to unload apart from doing the rest of your work and it wasn’t easy but, I don’t know. I suppose I was, as I say I was only twenty or so. It didn’t worry me. I didn’t worry about cranes or anything like that. And I think it was, I can’t honestly say, I can’t remember it all, the difference when I was up but I can’t honestly say I was disappointed in the attitude or anything like that, and no, I think it wasn’t always, hey up, stand to attention. But when you was off duty it was quite good. So, I don’t think there’s, I think personally, I suppose I would say that but I really think they are a good force. I don’t know what they’re like now of course but, you know.
AC: Were you involved with loading bombs actually on to the planes?
FB: No. Actually, what we, what we did we got the bombs out the bomb dump and done what we had to do with them. Got them on the trucks. Pushed them out the trucks, and the aircrew had their own blokes so really in a way amongst the armourers they were the easiest. They had to unload them, load them on and that’s it finished. But not us. We might have loaded them on, got them out there. And then go and have your tea. When you come back there’s three trucks coming in. And it was bloody hard. But that’s another strange thing because I know I’d never done an easy job when I was in civvy street, but they was never what I would call [pause] it wasn’t easy, and you know yourself when you get one of these with a load of bombs on it, it’s not that simple but I’d find it a bit harder now I suppose, but no. I think they were a good lot and I think, well I think all the British forces are good. I would think that. But I’ve, I have no complaint about which is basically, I know there are some blokes in there in a nice office jobs, I suppose but that’s just one of these things. But other than that, I think they were a good lot of blokes. And the crews were good and all, I think. They weren’t [unclear] they was good blokes. So, and I really think that in a way they had a very hard job. I mean it’s not easy flying over somewhere and so —
AC: In your bomb dump can you remember any particular smells or anything about it?
FB: Not off hand, I can’t. The thing is as I say, because I didn’t choose any particular, what I wanted to do I suppose they’d go, oh good another bloke for the bomb dump, and that’s why you know I always worked in bomb dumps but it didn’t worry me.
AC: Was it, was it particularly hot. Cold. Can you remember?
FB: Sometimes it would be when the weather was a bit warm, you know and you’re humping bombs around. Remember you might have had a crane to do some things but like most blokes, ‘I don’t want a bloody crane. Get hold there,’ you know. But I’m, I’m saying that I don’t really, I suppose I’m biased really but when I say the RAF is the best one. There’s not one as good as that in the world. Never mind. You know. So, perhaps I’m biased.
AC: And can, can you remember any of the mates who you worked with? Any personalities?
FB: Well, I worked with a few blokes [unclear] I can’t remember. I can’t remember their names. Not even, look you can see one here [paper rustling] but I couldn’t remember his name either. Not him, I mean he worked in the bomb dump. He’s not [laughs] That’s me. I know you shouldn’t have your photo taken like that but I did. No, I’m trying to think of. As I say once I came out the RAF that was it. I went back to me work and —
HH: [unclear]
FB: It’s a long while ago. A long while ago. Trying to think. Probably might have been, might have a lot of jokes about different things but basically I think when you hear people talk about oh bloody this, and that I can understand it but they were a good lot of blokes and we knew what we had to do and that’s it. And if you wanted the war to end as quickly as possible you did that, didn’t you? You didn’t do silly things. I can’t think of any complaints. Even with the NCOs and that. They were quite good blokes. So, I think [unclear] we did but they were quite good.
AC: I’m going to read four placenames where 617 Squadron were just to see if it jogs your memory about where you served.
FB: Christ.
AC: There’s Coningsby.
FB: Yeah.
AC: Scampton.
FB: Yeah.
AC: Waddington
FB: Yeah.
AC: Woodhall Spa.
FB: Yeah. I’ve done all of them at different times. I remember them clear as anything but if you’d have said to me who was the captain of so and so, Christ, who would that be now? You know. But no, I really thought that and I still think they were the best aircraft in the world.
AC: So, did, did, did you have a favourite place out of all those?
FB: Well, I liked Lincolnshire. I don’t know why but I did. I was up there. Quite good there. Used to get out you know when we wanted to and the camp itself was quite good you know I thought and even the grub wasn’t bad really.
AC: But which —
FB: I know you hear these people moaning about everything but if you were honest it’s a bloody sight more worse than that so but no I can’t even remember what ‘dromes I was on. I’ve been on all them ‘dromes. I was at the one when the Lincolnshire blokes come in. You know, the Dam ones. But I can’t, I can’t remember. There were other ‘dromes I was at and of course I’d done certain courses at times and things like that but I can’t honestly say that oh, bloody awful you know. I think, and I might be wrong but I think a lot of young blokes they got it bloody easy in the forces. You know. The kids these days look at you they wouldn’t have that for five minutes. But you know I’m a bit scruffy myself now I suppose. Mind you I’ve got some better clothes but no. No, I have to say that although I don’t know why I really chose them. Perhaps it might have been glamour but if I was of that age again that would be who’d I’d prefer to join. The RAF.
AC: You said you did some courses. Can you remember what those courses were?
FB: Oh, Christ. Now you’re asking. It’s about ninety years ago. Oh Christ. They must have been armament courses some of them I suppose. Various other ones what you do, you know. I don’t know. They would all be to do with war. It wouldn’t be dancing or anything like that. But no. I can’t think. I can’t even think of the names of the blokes. But you wouldn’t, all that time ago, would you? I was only twenty or so. In fact, I was only, I think I was eighteen when, when I went to join the RAF and as I said I might have been about eighteen and a half by the time I got in there. But no. I met some nice fellas and I thought the, you know it was better than just marching all day or something. I understand, I suppose the Army has to do that probably amongst the other things but I was always, I’m even trying to even think of some of the names of the squadrons. 617 of course. You don’t forget them. And as far as I’m concerned they were without doubt, I’m not saying all the rest of the crews weren’t. They were. But 617, well, you know. But it was hard work but what do you expect? So —
AC: I think you may have loaded some Dambusters bombs. Is that right?
FB: Yeah. Oh yeah. But as I say, as you probably know first of all they come in from wherever they’re made. We unload them there. When they go out we load them again and the only difference was the aircrews had their own blokes for putting them on board. Bloody lucky. That’s all I can say. But no, I have to say that I’m not like some people, bloody war. I mean it was a war and that’s it. You could be in the Army which would have been worse. Both my brothers was in the Army and it wasn’t too great for them. No. I think [pause] Yes, I could have stayed out. In fact, the governor said to me, ‘You are doing a job where you won’t get called up.’ And I said, ‘Well, I’ve got no objections to being called up.’ [Unclear] But you wouldn’t ask that now. I know that. I suppose a bit silly at the time but I don’t regret it. Not really. You’ve got to do this and that’s it as far as I [pause] I wouldn’t do it now if I was, you know but I wouldn’t say no to anything like that and I realise you’ve got have to have a certain amount of discipline. I know that. But looking at it another way I think they was pretty good in lots of ways. So —
AC: Were, were any of your ‘dromes ever bombed while you were there?
FB: I think, vaguely, vaguely, I can’t remember, I suppose. I can’t even remember which ones it might have been. Why? I don’t think the damage if I can remember correct was too much. They were soon shushed up I think. But it must have been Lincolnshire, that’s where I was at, that’s where I spent most of my time before I went abroad, you know. And I can’t even think of the name until you mentioned the names of them ‘dromes. And I can’t even remember the commanding officers or anyone else. But as I say it’s ninety years ago. I’ve had nothing to do with the forces since then really, you know.
AC: Did you ever watch planes taking off or landing?
FB: Yeah. Yeah. I suppose I’m a bit biased but to me the RAF, there was no one like them. They couldn’t land like that and couldn’t take off and they couldn’t be like them but that’s how you’ve got to be I think. You’re not concerned with the enemy. Yes, I think there was some very good crews there. I was only looking in the paper the other day about their, what’s his name now. Apparently, he had short legs and he couldn’t get in to the RAF. But then he was a squadron leader with them. That just shows you. I met one or two blokes mind you but I suppose basically once you either go in to a trade or you gone in to whatever it was you stuck with that because as far as they was concerned that job was yours wasn’t it? And I think they were quite good blokes really. I don’t think there’s any real nastiness amongst them. They were quite all right. Maybe I was just lucky and most of the blokes were just good blokes. I never thought that sometimes you might go out to the ‘dromes but you never got any of these squadron leaders, ‘Oi you —’ and their weight you know and I thought that was bloody good really. They didn’t have to be like that but they were. Maybe I was just lucky and had lucky crews there.
AC: Did you know any aircrew? Did they tell you of any of their experiences at all?
FB: Christ, now I’m trying to think. I can’t think of any. I can’t even think of some of the raids they used to make. I know sometimes of course unfortunately they didn’t all come back. Sometimes they came back a bit, but I never, I never heard anyone saying, ‘Sod this,’ you know. Might have been one or two. I never heard anything like that and I thought they was all good blokes and certainly they never sort of laid the law down. As far as they were concerned they were aircrew and that’s it. And providing you was sensible it didn’t matter, you know. I thought they were good. Most of them crews. And yeah, there must have been something. A few of them shot up and that and various things. But as I said being in, it would be where you got Bomber Command. So of course most of my time was concerned with bomb dumps. I was getting bombs out, bringing them in, doing all this, doing all that so you didn’t get a lot of time really to, a bit of time off now and again and things like that but you worked. There’s no doubt about that. But I couldn’t think of any, I can’t think off hand that nobody liked. Obviously, I didn’t have so much to do with the aircrews but obviously when they weren’t training or anything they wouldn’t just stroll around the camp. But as I say if I had to join another force I know I’d, as I say I was in the Home Guard but they would be the ones that I would probably and it probably the same sort as I was with. I don’t know why. Perhaps it’s because I got used to it and there was some good blokes there, you know so, but no, sometimes the air raid would go off and but I can’t think of any real, real bad ones, you know. I can think of some being shot up a bit and things like that. Fortunately, when the crew weren’t in them [laughs] but I can’t really think of [pause] I suppose, in a way, thinking of it now working a lot of the time and you would be in the bomb dump wouldn’t you? Someone’s got to bring the bombs in. Someone’s got to arm them up, someone’s got to load them and get them out to, and the aircrew blokes, not them but their crew who had to do it for them. But they was a nice lot of fellas so, but no I can’t think off hand. If I was that young again and I wanted to join it would probably be the Air Force again. I don’t think it would be, perhaps I’m being biased but I’m being honest when I say I don’t [unclear] I didn’t find any of that providing you behaved yourself and dressed yourself properly. I think these blokes bellowing their heads off, a load of rubbish some of that is I think. But there you go.
AC: What did you get up to in your time off?
FB: Well, of course, being in London [laughs] you would be dodging bombs and things like that wouldn’t you because the raids was going on here just the same. And I don’t know. I suppose those blokes said, ‘Why the bloody hell did you want to join the Air Force when bombs come over here.’ But there you go. No. I didn’t do an awful lot. There wasn’t a lot you could do. And obviously I only had Air Force pay then. I wasn’t earning more than people on the outside. But I can remember, you know when I got demobbed as I told the kids once I went down to where I used to work, saw the manager, had a word and the bloke, I should have done a six, five or six year course. Actually, I’d done three of them when I went. I came in and one of the blokes said, ‘Hello.’ I said, ‘Hello.’ He said, ‘Are you coming back now?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ He said, ‘Oh, can I find you a job on the bench.’ No. He’s not going to find me a job. I’ll tell you what. He’s been doing the same job you were doing but I don’t care about that. While you were still here I was somewhere else. So other than that, fine. So I’ve never had push here, push there. All those. And I’ve always considered I’ve done a job well so —
AC: So, when you were on the ‘dromes —
FB: Yeah.
AC: On your time off did you go to pubs or, what did you do with your spare time?
FB: I’ve never smoked except a very little when I was young. Never drank. Did I [unclear] I don’t think so. No. I used to go out with the lads and might go in one of the cafes down there or things like that but we didn’t have a lot of money did we so we didn’t you know. But no, I might go to the pictures now and again. It was only about fourpence I suppose. No. It was all right. But nice enough blokes. We never had every day off of course. [unclear] sometimes but I can’t really have any moans about it. You know, I mean you don’t go to war and expect to have strong wine and [unclear] and got plenty of money do you? And I never had plenty of money so I accepted. No. I liked Lincoln as I say. I don’t think I’ve been there since but I did, perhaps it’s because the RAF was mainly a lot of young blokes weren’t they? I think, you I know. I think so. But no, it was alright.
AC: What about RAF songs? Have you got any of those for me? Songs.
FB: Songs?
AC: From the RAF.
FB: Yeah. I can’t remember them off hand. There were a few of course. Some were a bit more than the others but basically as I say I think as one German bloke put it there’s only two real armies. The British Army and the German. He’s probably right. But no, we had some good blokes there. Obviously, we must have had a few blokes who were a bit, you know but judging by today I don’t think so. I mean even your hair cut. I can remember them saying, ‘Get your hair cut.’ It was no good saying you had it cut yesterday. ‘Well, they didn’t cut it right.’ No. There must have been some things I didn’t like. I mean I have to say at times I’d think, ‘Oh Christ, there they go. They are on a day off. We’ve got to go back and unload another load of bombs.’ But it might have been a bit of a moan. But wouldn’t be now though so —
AC: Did you get sent stuff from home? You know, parcels from home.
FB: A few. Some blokes might have got a few more but that never worried me but as I say I didn’t used to drink and I smoked very little which I soon packed up when I came out the forces. I haven’t smoked for I don’t know how long. And no, sometimes I would get bored and have a kick about. If you were a lucky boy you’d get in a team, you know. But I’m trying to think. Obviously, someone must have had a moan. It doesn’t matter what it is and who it is. Someone is going to have a moan, aren’t they? But I can’t think and I have to say by that and large I think most of the officers and people like that were quite good. They didn’t go out of their way to be bloody nasty to you or anything like that. Certainly not in the bomb dump. They’d got no time for that. So, you know. No. No. No. I’m saying that if I had to join the forces again maybe I’d have a different view now but they would be who I would join. Well, if you look in that what’s the name you’ll see a 617 Squadron plane there. That’s how, just on the top there. But no, I think, I can’t think [pause] I wouldn’t want to do it now of course. A bit older now [laughs]
AC: Did you ever think where the bombs were going?
FB: Oh yeah. We had an idea where they was going. We weren’t told but we had an idea by the load so we knew roughly where they was going and I have to say we never thought poor sods or anything like that. They didn’t think that about us and obviously we didn’t them. To us they were the enemy, that’s it. Unfortunately, I suppose the civilians weren’t. But I don’t believe our blokes were so any old how. I don’t think they were like that. I think they would, did what they had to do. I don’t think they just went and dropped bombs any how. I don’t think that. Apart from the photos they brought back. But no, I suppose, I mean when you look at some of these young kids today. Christ. I suppose they could be smart enough. No. I think [laughs] I don’t know why. When I, when I got posted, first one, you know for joining I don’t know why I didn’t think, oh Christ, fancy getting Bomber Command. Letting me in. But there’s no doubt about it Bomber Command did do a lot of work in spite of all the others. I’m not saying they didn’t but Bomber Command was bloody hard work and certainly for the crews. I mean, some were very unfortunate, weren’t they? But I think they were nice sort of blokes. So —
AC: You, you mentioned that you went abroad.
FB: Yeah.
AC: Was that with Bomber Command?
FB: Yeah. I went to Palestine I think it was. Probably a photo there. Palestine and Egypt. But I think by that time it would be about nineteen, I’d been in the forces about two years then and there were rather funny things with that at times. Very funny.
AC: What sort of funny things?
FB: Well, on one camp I was at we used to have a place about two, two miles from the camp and you’d go out and I went out there and by that time I had four blokes and I would be in charge of them. And somebody rang up one day and they said, ‘How many men have you got there?’ And I went, ‘You what?’ ‘How many men you got?’ I said ‘Well, you just tell me the code.’ ‘I’m an officer.’ ‘I’m sorry what you are but — ’ ‘Well, you tell me.’ I said, ‘I’m sorry. I can’t.’ And he slammed the phone down. So, when we got back I told the blokes. They said, ‘Oh Christ,’ they said, ‘That’s one of the Stern Gang people.’ Them sort of people, ‘You were lucky.’ I said, ‘I know I was.’ Nobody would do it [unclear] And I think it was two months after that they done away with that. But so, considering we were bloody lucky really. So, I didn’t get too many of them, you know. We were —
AC: So, what was this place that was two miles away?
FB: Who I was with?
AC: No. You told me about a place that was two miles away from where you were.
FB: Oh, just a caravan. What it was for I don’t know but they used it for some reason or other. It was out there. Wasn’t out there much longer. I’m glad it wasn’t, you know. But obviously there must have been some nasty things going on at some places. We were lucky I suppose but there you go.
AC: And were you doing the same job in Egypt and Palestine?
FB: Mainly. But all to do with the armoury of course. Unless you wanted to do something else, I suppose. No point then. You were already in that sort of thing, weren’t you? But no. I was, I suppose from the time I finished my training basically that’s what I did. Armoury. I wasn’t asked [laughs] whether I wanted to of course. But, but as I say I don’t think it was all a bit of cake but I don’t think there’s a lot of people realise what they’ve got to thank these people. Particularly some of the air crew. There you go.
AC: So, after the war did anybody speak to you about what Bomber Command had done?
FB: I can’t think off hand, you know and I could have gone on. Strangely, I’d only been home about three weeks and I think I got a letter saying, perhaps you are fed up now being in civvy street and we, if you want to come back in to the Air Force you would get immediate upgrade, you know. Higher rank, you know. But I was home then. I’d got a couple of kids so I wasn’t interested in. I suppose I’m a little bit, you know. You never hear me making any complaint about what they were or even the ones that weren’t too good. If you was in the war you was in the war. And that’s it. Better than my brothers. They was in the Army. Well, I don’t know.
AC: Did, did you ever miss the RAF?
FB: I suppose I can’t really say yes because I was still only young. Back home, back in my job, I’d got two kids, earning good money and fairly, you know, no one saying what I got to do and if I wanted to go anywhere I’d go anywhere. But I still think that I know you get blokes saying you must have been bloody mad. But I really think that if you had to go, I didn’t have to I know but I think really by and large I think they were good lot of blokes really. There must have been some of the blokes that weren’t but by and large I think they were quite good and I can’t ever remember being in any real trouble, you know. I might have had my hat put on the wrong way but other than that I think they was quite good, you know and certainly the rest of the blokes and definitely the aircrew were. None of this, the aircrews that were in the station none of them [unclear] No. No. They’re all good blokes but perhaps we were just biased at the ones we chose.
AC: Did you stay in touch with any of your mates?
FB: No. Not now. I wouldn’t be. I did one or two. I saw one or two and then of course I went to visit one or two blokes who I was in civvy street with but that was a long while ago. I couldn’t even tell you their names now. So not, no as I say I married and got a couple of kids who have also got kids. So no, I don’t think and I stayed in the job I left right up until the firm closed down. And other than that, so I was still working when I was fifty eight so, you know.
[recording paused]
FB: To get to any reasonable rank you had four lots to get through there. AC1, AC2, AC1, LAC before you got to a corporal rank. So I, and I was, remember I was only young then but I did —
GB: You got promoted, didn’t you?
FB: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
GB: Was that a few things —
[recording paused]
FB: Really, what I told you. I don’t think I was deliberate. I’m just not that way. I’m not going to say I would like it. I might not like it but there you go. But for me you know but I’d like to think I did my best while I was in the force. I didn’t do anything really I might have done one, two or three silly little things but I didn’t do nothing that you shouldn’t do. So therefore, as far as I know I never had a bad word anywhere and I, as I say it takes you a while to get these promotions but when you think about it I was a boy in a sense but I don’t know if somebody said to me would you be proud to be in the forces? And I would say yes. The RAF. That’s what, I chose that. They didn’t put me in it. So, you know, and I’d sooner think I did the right thing even though I sometimes speak to people, ‘ Cor, Christ, I wouldn’t have liked to have been in that lot. Didn’t you have any time off?’ I said, ‘Time off? A bloody war on. What are you talking about? Time off.’ We did get a certain amount of time off but no I found most of the blokes and most of the officers and that, even the commanders I didn’t find them [unclear] I think if you behaved yourself they were alright. They don’t expect you to always, but they, they’re not nasty blokes like some of these people say. Bloody ridiculous. But there you go. But I’ve got a nice big one of those down at my daughter’s. That’s where that’s come from. But no —
AC: So, you came from quite a poor family.
FB: Yeah.
AC: Is that right?
FB: We were all poor in those days unless you were in work and had a job.
AC: And do you think you sort of built up your health and strength when you joined the RAF?
FB: Well, basically I must have done because I mean I had to leave school when leaving age was about fourteen, I suppose. Something like that. Because you needed to get out and get a job and I was fourteen and as far as I can remember to be honest now I don’t think I was, I’ve got a few things now but I was still doing things when I was eighty [unclear] And I think, I think the, I don’t know how bad the Army really is, or the Navy but I think the RAF was quite good and they were who we got the training from. They weren’t all mugs or anything like that but they were decent blokes. If you behaved yourself that was all they were asking for. So I’d already got, I don’t know perhaps I was just lucky. It might have been that.
AC: I’ve been told you did PT on Great Yarmouth beach. Is that right? Do you remember that?
FB: I don’t know whether I can. I must have done it. Must have done it. And route marches and things like that on a course like this, you know. Well, I mean I’d been in the Home Guard. I’d done a few. Not like that but it didn’t worry me. And I thought, by and large I still think if you’ve got to compare different countries I don’t think there’s one to [unclear] our country. Perhaps I’m just biased, you know.
AC: And when you were doing the Dambusters stuff.
FB: Yeah.
AC: Is that right you realised that there was something was going on? The bombs were a bit different.
FB: Oh yeah. I mean these were on a, weren’t like the ordinary bombs, you know. These were on a you know, on a [unclear] they looked like that but on a great big long what’s the name and you’d got up there. You’d got a crane but you’d no time for that. And so you’d dump them on as I say. Push the tray and then someone would take it over and take it out to the ‘drome and their blokes would put it on and they’d finish with it then. We weren’t of course because as soon as you got stuck down in would come a load more and you had a lot of work to do but so had lots of other blokes and some poor sods were in the front line so how can you, you know. I’ve never been that way. Just as now. I mean, lots of blokes now say, ‘Sod that,’ you know but I’ve never been like that and I like to think I behaved myself when I was in the forces. But yeah, I must have put some weight on. I think I must have been about, I don’t know eight or nine stone and a little while ago I weighed just on eleven stone. I don’t know. Twelve stone. Obviously, I don’t work now in that way. But no, I think when you talk about, we know it’s all rubbish about the grub‘s wrong but it’s not that bad and the cooks are not bad blokes either. So, I don’t think it was, it wasn’t like going to the Royal but I mean what do you expect? And I suppose we all had our little moans but I still think, I might be wrong but I think choosing the RAF was the wisest one. I think they were not so bad as maybe it’s different in the [pause] you know. I mean in the RAF you’re dealing with not only ground staff but you’re dealing with aircrew so I suppose perhaps don’t get so much, you certainly get some hard work but, you know. So —
AC: You mentioned the food there. I think sometimes you had to make do with sandwiches you weren’t keen on.
FB: Well, we did. Not the, all the camp didn’t. They were all right. 5 o’clock tea or whatever. We did because we had, as I say we got to get the loads out and you know talking about one lot, you’re talking about I don’t know could be ten or fifteen loads you got to get out and you’ve got to get them out and you’ve got to put them on there and you’ve got to send them out and the squadron armourer would take over then but their’s was not bad. They had a good job but I mean they didn’t have to get them out. They had to put them on. But that’s not, and that’s just them. You’ve got all the other bombs remember, even, you know for all kinds so you would be working all day a lot of the time and at times they’d say, ‘Well lads, we’ve got some nice grub for you coming out the line.’ [groan] Yeah. Because you’ll be working out here ‘til 8 o’clock. [laughs] So, but I don’t know. I suppose you must let them moan, isn’t it? I have a moan now sometimes. [unclear] I have to put him in his place. I don’t know. I don’t know how he’d have got on. I really don’t. Blimey, he’d been in the guardhouse and not come out for a long while I reckon. No. I think if you’re honest about it if you’re in the forces you’re in the forces and that’s that. There’s no good being [unclear] about it. You’ve got to [unclear] haven’t you up to a point so that’s it. I’ve never been in any trouble.
AC: Going, going back to your time in Palestine and Egypt I think there was some stuff going missing from your camp was there? Do you remember that?
FB: I can’t honestly say I do because we’re talking about ninety years ago nearly.
AC: In the latrines, was it?
FB: I thought basically where ever we were was not bad but I suppose I would say now, ‘Cor sod that. All that hard work,’ but like I say I was only twenty so, eighteen when I went in to the forces which I didn’t have to do but I did and so I don’t think, I still say that alright I’m biased I suppose but I still say the RAF is the best air force in the world. Whatever they say. Probably the other countries say the same but, you know.
AC: Is there anything I ‘ve not asked you about that you think might be of interest. Anything you can think of?
FB: Well, I can vaguely remember some. Vaguely, when there might have been some outside attack on the camp or something you know from outside. But I can’t even remember where they were or who they were. But they were nothing to them. Well, they were. They got in the way I suppose. But like as I said before there would probably be some things I wouldn’t know because like I said before if you was in the armoury that meant you had to work. There’s no doubt about that. Not like working in the office or some cushy little job. It wasn’t like that. You could be bleeding working hours all day. Grub brought out to you for your dinner. You know. Your dinner was, I don’t know 12 o’clock but about 8 o’clock at night. Get home by about often, where you was working at. You know. But no. I suppose in a way if I was one of these sort of persons that didn’t like [unclear] I’d probably say bloody [unclear] but I can’t say that. I’m not saying I would volunteer again. I’m a bit older now but you know. But no. I mean some of the times I went on was really good. Really good. But some weren’t so good of course. But there must have lots of things that went on that I can’t recall. I think I can vaguely, must have been something wrong with some, one or two aircraft got blown up somehow or other but I mean ninety years is a long while to think. I couldn’t even tell you the names of the camps I’ve been in. I couldn’t even tell you that and I liked that. We were there for a few years so I don’t know why. I don’t know and I don’t think [pause] I can’t say about today but I certainly don’t think it’s as bad as a lot of people would try and make out. If you’ve got to behave yourself you’ve got to behave yourself. So, I can’t say anything about simply because you know you think you’d go out when you liked and you can’t do that but I don’t think that’s myself. I’m not sure as I would do it again of course. I know better. But if we all thought that we’d all be marching along with the bloody Germans or something. You can’t do that. So, I don’t know.
AC: Well, that’s —
FB: Oh well. I’ll think. I could make it [unclear] When Gary’s, ‘What’s he on about. What’s he [unclear] I don’t know who they are?’ And I don’t know who you are of course, but I suppose I don’t know. I said, I don’t know [unclear] Bloody honour, I think. I don’t know but there you go, you know.
AC: Well, that’s, that’s been very interesting Frank and it will be very useful for our purposes so thank you.
FB: Well, as long as I’m only discussing things probably at one time I wouldn’t have bothered to answer it but I’ll try to be honest. I haven’t tried to pretend [unclear] several people or nothing like that. I haven’t done that. But what you really want it for I don’t know. But there you go, you know.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Frank Gerald Bassett
Creator
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Andrew Cowley
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-05-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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ABassettFG180517
Format
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01:00:02 audio recording
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Language
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eng
Description
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Frank was brought up in Woolwich. He joined the RAF at the age of 18 and became an armourer. Frank describes the difficult physical work, loading and unloading bombs. He served 617 Squadron and loaded bouncing bombs, which were different. He remembers RAF Coningsby, RAF Scampton, RAF Waddington and RAF Woodhall Spa. He also went with Bomber Command to Egypt and Palestine. Frank expresses his pride in the RAF.
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Egypt
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Middle East--Palestine
North Africa
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Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
Carolyn Emery
617 Squadron
bombing
bombing up
bouncing bomb
civil defence
ground personnel
Home Guard
military ethos
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/10612/BPayneRPayneRv1.1.pdf
4be42d107ed7b8f0a042057052d00c0f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Payne, Reg
R Payne
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Payne, R
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. Two oral history interviews with Reg Payne (1923 - 2022, 1435510 Royal Air Force), his memoirs and photographs. Reg Payne completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. His pilot on operations was Michael Beetham. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />
<p>This collection also contains items concerning Fred Ball. Additional information on Fred Ball is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/100970/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.<a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/ball-fc/"></a></p>
Date
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2015-07-03
2017-08-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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AVIATION MEMORY.
[Page break]
18
RAF BASES WHERE REG SERVED
[Underlined] 5 YRS [/underlined]
PADGATE
BLACKPOOL
YATESBURY
NORTH COATS
SOUTH KENSINGTON
MADELY
STORMY DOWN
WIGTOWN
SALTBY
COTTESMORE
MARKET HARBOROUGH
WIGSLEY
SKELLINGTHORPE
SILVERSTONE
TURWESTON
NORTH WEALD
KIRKHAM
RANGOON BURMA
[Page break]
[Underlined] Reg Payne [/underlined]
[Underlined] 1939 SEPT. WAR DECLARED [/underlined]
[Underlined] 16 YEARS OF AGE [/underlined]
Home Guard at 16 yrs (1939)
If you waited to be called up at 18yrs you could be sent to work in any of the coal mines, miles away from home
i volunteerd at 17 yrs RAF [underlined] 1940 [/underlined]
Took inteligence exams Moreton Hall Northampton then to RAF Cardington for more tests.
Training as a Wireless Operator.
My training would cost the Government twice as much as sending a pupil thro a university. Period.
2 years training before operations
[Underlined] 1 year to learn morse code 4 hrs per [/underlined] day
Only fighter pilots had long range radio speech.
Bomber pilots had only 10 miles range “Hello Darky” [Underlined] Give Details [/underlined].
[Page break]
[Underlined] JOINING THE RAF OCT 1941 [/underlined]
16 yrs old War Declared
Always keen on RAF.
Joined Home Guard (then L.D.V.) Cransley reservoir & Pytchley Bridge
At 17 yrs volunteer’d RAF
Selection testS Dover Hall Northampton
later on Cardington
Selected as Wireless OP/AG. Training with ATC. Morse code
Short hand typing exam (Cacelled) and call up papers
Advised to get very short haircut ready for RAF
Train to Padgate with Sandwich’s
Poring rain ladies umbrella
Sore eye until Derbyshire
Soaking wet at Padgate hut to hut
[Page break]
After issue of uniform next day parcel up wet cloth’s to send home to mum. Then train to Blackpool P.D.C. Personel Disp Centre
[Underlined] King St. Blackpool [/underlined]
One week only learning about
RAF regulations etc
Care of uniform
Told to get haircut and had one next day (thought I told you to get haircut
Corporal took four of us to nearby hairdressers lost most of our hair
Landlady taught us to polish boots Candle and spoon (hot)
First letter from home (over breakfast) after reading it the landlady said
[underlined] your mother still loves you [/underlined] (tears)
Then move to start our training in the tram sheds every day. Our instructors were ex naval wireless ops, 2hrs morning & 2 hrs afternoon
Morse code Morse code Morse code
[Page break]
[Underlined] OCT 1941 [/underlined]
Mrs Clegg 4 Charnley Rd Blackpool
10 RAF young lads posted there
2 in each bedroom. 2 single beds 3 beds in our bedroom
No food in bedrooms. Ron Boydon Arthur Bromich
Electric lights out in bedrooms after 7pm.
We were detailed in turn washing up. If you didn’t eat all your meals she contacted the RAF Billeting Officer and had you moved
We got over this by flushing it all down the toilet.
Gym slippers had to be worn all the time 10 pairs of gym slippers in the hall always a job to find your own
[Underlined] RAF men had to be in by 10pm. [/underlined]
Mrs Clegg locked the door promp at ten
We could not see the end of film at Christmaas Day, for a small piece of chicken and a small glass of ale
We [underlined] were charged 2 and 6 pence [/underlined]
Ron Boydon & Arthur Browich
The two boys who shared my bedroom were both killed in the war
[Page break]
All your personal clothing and items had to have your name and RAF number printed on it.
[Underlined] No bath or shower at Mrs Cleggs [/underlined]
Showers were allowed for us.
Sat mornings [underlined] Derby Baths Blackpool [/underlined]
We could swim in the baths but had no swiming trunks etc
We [underlined] could [/underlined] swim without costumes etc.
The medical plasters on our arms came off in the waters and floted on the surface on the swimming pool.
A pool atendant collected them with a shrimp net.
Female workers in a large building across the road could’nt take their eyes off us, and waved their arms to us
Morse code Morse code Morse code
[Page break]
Reg’s close RAF friend.
[Underlined] RON BOYDON [/underlined]
Junior Ket Evening Tel reporter
[Underlined] Cover’d in Corby today [/underlined]
Shared my room at Blackpool
Tall young fellow
Ron carried the white parafin lamp at front of our squad, on dark mornings when we all had to march across
Blackpool, to the tram sheds for morse practice, or Stanley Park early morning for P.T. or drill.
On dark mornings & evenings
[Page break]
Morse code speed tests were carried out in a room above Woolworths (Fridays) as your morse speed increast. We only went up to 10 words per minute
If you failed three times you would be taken off corse and be trained as Gunner (Air)
At further training at Yatesbury your morse speed reached 18 words per min
We didn’nt get our own laundry back from RAF Laundry (sizes) sent my laundry home to mum. Food also in parcel when returned Told to put food in cabinet Other boys ate it.
[Page break]
Must be in doors by 10pm.
Home from pictures food not in cabinet! Next time put food in bedroom draw wrapped in underwear.
Later food not in draw contact Mrs Clegg.
Arrive back clock striking 10 oclock just in time we say
Ron Boydon late on parade oil lantern
Trim wick
Lights go out whilst shaving. 7pm.
Turn water off on landing.
Eat up food or will inform Billeting Officer Yellow Peril & hard cheese.
Food down toilet and down back of piano
Ron’s pygamas on landing
Drill with gym shoes on Tower Ballroom also lectures Ena Bagnor organ
Derby Baths shower and swim once per week
Vaccination scabs Office girls
PTO
[Page break]
[Underlined] CHRISTMAS 1941. [/underlined]
No extra Christmas meal, we had to pay 2/6d for some chicken and Christmas Pud
Found out later my mother wrote Mrs Clegg nasty letter.
Of the three in bedroom I was the only one to survive
I recently returned to Blackpool where I visited Charnley Rd,
Our biller much enlarged (2 floors higher
Found my old room So small coul’nt believe 3 beds in a room.
Posted to Yatesbury, P.T. long distance runs over the Downs. P.T.I. ran behind the last boys Took his belt off and made the last boys run fast
Sunday bus ride to Swindon Drinking cider.
Ladies behind bar, kissing us before we got bus home
[Page break]
[Underlined] YATESBURY WILTS [/underlined]
Morse code and wireless valves
Valves}
Triodes
Tetroes
Pentrose
Diodes
Aerials & Accululators
Morse Keys
Accumulators
Stormy Down south coast.
Air Gunnery Cause
Browning machine guns
Armstrong Whitworth [underlined] Whitley’s. [/underlined]
[Underlined] NO 1 A.F.U. SCOTLAND [/underlined] Advanced Flying [underlined] Unit [/underlined]
Ansons & Botha’s
[Underlined] Night flying 34 hours [/underlined]
Pilot suspected engine trouble daylight flight. Landed over in England mid day. Nice dinner in Sgts Mess
Were told later nothing wrong with engine but all had a lovely meal
[Page break]
RADIO WORK & TRAINING
JAN 42 Yatesbury Wireless study
MAY 42 North Coates Ops Duties, Coastal, Com
OCT 42 Radio Maintenance Kensington
JAN 43 Madely Flying Proctors & Dominies
APR 43 Gunnery Course Whitley’s Stormy Down
MAY 43 AFU Wigtown Scotland Ansons Bothas
JUNE 43 14 OUT Cottesmore Saltby Market-Harb
SEP 43 H.C.U. Wigsley Halifax Lancaaster
OCT 43 Ops Skellingthorpe
Now crew of 5 at Cottesmore
Heavy Conversion Unit Wigsley
At RAF Wigsley (Notts) we collected two new crew members
1/ Jock Higgins Mid Upper Gunner
2/ Don Moore Flight Engineer
We were lucky because Don had done a lot of work as an engine fitter before joining as air crew.
[Page break]
MORSE CODE
[Table of Morse Code]
[Page break]
[Underlined] 14 OTU COTTESMORE [/underlined]
[Underlined] JUNE 1943. [/underlined]
Pilots
Navigators
Bomb Aimers
Wireless Operators
Air Gunners
All taken to an empty hangar and told to sort themselves out into [underlined] crews of five [/underlined]
Later each crew would get a Bomb Aimer and [underlined] another Gunner [/underlined]
[Underlined] OPERATIONS [/underlined]
[Underlined] Take Wakey Wakey tablets on leaving English coast for Germany [/underlined]
[Underlined
I IDENTITY
F FRIEND
OR
F FOE [/underlined]
I.F.F. transmitter sends out a signal which recognises you as an RAF aircraft
and not an enemy aircraft.
[Page break]
1 [Underlined] EVERY MORNING [/underlined] change intercom lead ACI batteries. Sign Form 700. Return used batteries to the Accumulator Section
2. [Underlined] Inspect all external aerials [/underlined] for any damage
3. During air test flight, [underlined] check all radio equip [/underlined]
4 [Underlined] Attend the WOPS briefing. D/F stations and frequencies etc. Attend the main briefing [/underlined]
5. [Underlined] Collect the colour of the, day charts, bomber codes, M/F D/F groups to use. Broadcast spare helmet W/T challenge chart [/underlined]
[Underlined] Check ground flight switch. Check voltage switch on A 1134 amplifier for inter com Check radio whilst engines are running Tidy up bundles of window on floor Oxygen mask on before take off Once air born pencil in ranges on Monica Screen IFF switched on Keep watch on Monica screen Listen for half hourly broadcast from Base Leaving the cost wind out trailing aerial
[Page break]
At RAF Wigsley our pilot was given training on 4 engines, training starting with flying Halifax bombers, then changing to Lancasters
Luckily most the wireless equipment that I had was the same that I used in Wellingtons
We did a number of flights by night
Long distance flights which always ended up dropping bombs on a distant bombing range.
At last we were posted to our bomber squadron, which was 50 Sqdn only 3 miles from Lincoln city. Skellingthorpe airfield
The first thing we had to do when arriving was to contact the orderly room and give the name and address of our next of kin.
We were then taken to our sleeping quarters a hut alongside others in a field off the main road leading to Lincoln
Toilets were provided close by, but there were no washing or shower equipment on the site, this only in the Sgts Mess, some distance away a good ten minutes walk.
Rather than take our washing towel, and shaving kit backwards and forwards each day they were hung on pegs in the Sgts Mess where we did all our ablutions. The towels had to be folded back in our haversacks each day and they were always damp.
[Page break]
It was after we had our evening meal in the Sgts Mess, and were returing to our hut, that we spoke to a group of chaps on our camp site. After telling them what a “terrible” place we had ended up in, they smiled at us and said, “terrible” it’s a lovely place, Lincoln is only 10 mins bike ride down the road, loads of pubs, and all of them have plenty of girls there that love meeting us RAF chaps, you will see when you go there.
Fred Ball our rear gunner and myself both had bikes and said we would give it a try. Biking into the centre of Lincoln we spotted a small pub called “The Unity? Finding a place for our bikes we entered the building, there was music in there and we found a table & two chairs to relax on
Sitting there enjoying a glass bitter we could’nt help notice two ATS girls also enjoying their drinks, we could’nt speak to them as they were the other side of a busy room. Before 10 oclock the two girls got up and started to walk out.
Fred said to them and where are you two off now, and they said we have to be in by 10 oclock, and our billet is near the Cathedral. Fred said do you mind if we walk with you, they said not at all.
We arrived at the large house near the Cathedral now the ATS Headquarters. We chatted for a short time and agreed to meet again the same time tomorrow. I didn’t know at that time I had just met
[Page break]
[Underlined] SQDN CALLSIGN CODES [/underlined]
50 SQDN A/C Pilgrim (B. Baker etc.
Skellingthorpe airfield C/S Black Swan
MORSE CALL SIGNS.
50 Sqdn STB
5 Group A8X
STBB V A8X Radio call from 5 Group
STBB V STB. Radio call from our Sqdn
[Underlined] V means from [/underlined]
my first wife
[Page break]
[Underlined] WAKEY WAKEY TABLETS [/underlined]
Not usually taken until getting airborn.
[Page break]
ITEMS CARRIED IN OUR POCKETS BATTLE DRESS AND BOOTS
French and Dutch money etc.
Emergency high protane food. Ovaltine tablets Water purification tablets
Knife and torch in our boots
The knife to off the tops of our boots
Map of the area (on a silk scarf) more like a large hankerchief
Dead mans rope at rear door
Amputation saw and morphia tablets in first aid cabinet
[Page break]
[Underlined] OCT 1943 [/underlined]
Posted to 50 Sqdn Skellingthorpe Lincoln
Crew not up to operation standard
More training needed
Give name of next of kin and address to the orderly room.
[Underlined] NOV 3RD [/underlined] 1943
BEETHAMS SECOND DICKY
TARGET DUSSELDORF
18 Aircraft lost (One of them my brother)
Telegram brother Arthur missing on operation
Mother asking me to come home
Making a promise to our Wing/Co to keep flying
Hoping for an easy operation for our first one
My first wife
[Page break]
1943.
OPERATIONAL FLYING
14 OTU COTTESMORE & MARKET HARBOROUGH
JUNE 1943
Crewing up in hangar Cottesmore
CREW MEMBERS
P/O BEETHAM PILOT
P/O SWINYARD NAV
SGT BARTLETT BOMB AIMER
SGT PAYNE WIRELESS OP.
SGT BALL REAR GUNNER
SGT HIGGINS MID UPPER GUNNER
SGT MOORE FLIGHT ENGINEER
WIRELESS OPS JOB
Change accumulators every morning.
Keep in contact with Base
Care of the inter/comm system.
Assist nav with bearings and fixes
Able to move about aircraft whilst in flight
Astro shots using the sextant
Check all aerials before all flights
Watching Monica screen Pilot had only [word missing] radio communication 10 miles
Jamming enemy radio messages
Demonstrate morse code.
[Page break]
1
22.1.43. LANC JA899 F/O BEETHAM
7.15 [Underlined] OPS BERLIN [/underlined]
764 Aircraft – 469 Lancs, 234 Halifax’s 50 Stirlings, 11 Mosquitoes. This was the greatest force sent to Berlin so far. But it was also the last raid in which Stirlings were sent to Germany. Bad weather again kept most of the German fighters on the ground and the bomber force was able to take a relatively “straight in” “strait out” route to the target without suffering undue losses. 11 Lancs 10 Halifaxe’s 5 Stirlings 3.4 per cent of the force. Berlin was again completely cloud covered and returning crews could only estimate that the marking and bombing were believed to be accurate, in fact this was the most effective raid on Berlin of the war. A vast area of destruction. The mainly residential areas of Tiergarten and Charlottenburg, the dry weather conditions, several “firestorm” areas were reported and a German plane next day measured the height of the smoke cloud as 6,000 metres nearly 19,00 ft.
It is impossible to give anything like the full details of the damage or to separate completely details from this raid and a smaller one on the next night at least 3,000 houses and 23 industrial premises were completely destroyd, with several thousands of other buildings damaged. It is estimated that 175,000 people were bombed out, more than 50,000 soldiers were brought in to help. From garrisons up to 100KM distance, these were equivalent to nearly three
[Page break]
Army divisions taken from their normal duties.
Interesting entries among the list of buildings destroyed or severely damaged are. The Kaiser Wilhelm Gedachtwiskirche (The Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church, which is now half ruined, half restored, (a major attraction in West Berlin)
The Charlottenburg Castle, the Berlin Zoo, much of the Unter den Linden, the British, French, Italian and Japanese embassies, the Ministry of Weopons and Munitions, the Waffen S.S. Admin College the Barracks of the Imperial Guard at Spandau and, among many industrial premises, 5 factories of the Siemens Group and the Alkett tank works which had recently moved from the Ruhr. It is difficult to give exact casualty figures, an estimated 2,000 people were killed, including 500 in a large shelter in Wilmersdorf which received a direct hit, and 105 people killed in another shelter in Wilmersdorf which was next to the Neukoln gas works where there was a huge explosion.
[Page break]
23.11.43 2
17.05 LANC JA899 F/O BEETHAM
17.05
[Underlined] OPS BERLIN LANDED WITTERING FLAPS U/S. [/underlined]
383 aircraft 365 Lancs 8 Mosquitoes to continue the attack on Berlin. The bombers used the same direct route as had been employed on the previous night. The German controllers made an early identification of Berlin as the probable target. Their single engined fighters were gathered over the city by zero hour and other fighters arrived a few minutes later
Fake instructions broadcast from England caused much annoyance to the German who was giving the running commentary. The Germans started a female commentator but this was mostly counered by a female voice from England ordering the German pilots to land because of fog at their bases. Spoof fighter flares were dropped by Mosquitoes north of the bomber stream also caused some diversions of German effort. Bomber crews noticed that flak over the target was unusually restrained with the German fighters obviously being given priority [Underlined] 20 aircraft all Lancasters were lost 5.2 per cent of the bomber force [/underlined]
The target was again cloud covered and the Pathfinders carried out sky-marking, but many of the main force crews aimed their bombs thro the cloud at the glow of 11 major fires still burning from the previous night. Much further destruction was caused to Berlin but because many of the details of the 2 raids were recorded to-gether by the Germans, it is only possible to say that more than 2,000 further houses 94 wooden barrack buildings and 8 industrial premises and 1 military establishment were destroyed, with many other buildings damaged
Approx 1,400 – 1.500 people were killed on this night.
[Page break]
26.11.43 LANC JA376 F/O BEETHAM
[Underlined] OPS BERLIN DIVERTED MELBOURNE (YORKS) [/underlined]
443 Lancasters 7 Mosquitoes
The Berlin force and the Stuttgart force diversionary flew a common route over Northern France and on nearly to Frankfurt (diversionary) flew a common route over norther France and on nearly to Frankfurt before diverging
The German controllers thought that Frankfurt was the main target until a late stage and several bombers were shot down as they flew past Frankfurt. Only a few fighters appeard over Berlin where flak was the main danger. But the scattered condition of the bomber stream at Berlin meant that bombers were caught by fighters off track on the return flight and the casualties mounted [Underlined] 28 Lancasters were lost 6.2 per cent [/underlined] of the force, and 14 more Lancasters crashed in England. The weather was clear over Berlin, but after their long approach flight from the south, the Pathfinders marked an area 6-7 miles from the city centre (north west) and most aircraft bombed there. Because of Berlins size however most of the bombing fell in the centre and in the Siemen Sstadt (with many electrical factories) and Tegel districts. 38 war industry factories were destroyed, and many more damaged. The now routine destruction of housing and public buildings also took place, but not on such a great scale as on the previous raids to Berlin
The Berlin zoo was heavily bombed on this night many of the animals had been evacuated to zoo’s in other parts of Germany, but the bombing killed most of the remainder, several large and dangerous animals leopards, panthers, jaguars apes – escaped had to be hunted and shot in the streets
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Because of the confusion caused by so many raids in a short period, it was only possible for the Germans to record an approximate number of people killed on this night, of about 700-800. The local officials however produce a report in Jan 1944 giving details of combined casualties of the three raids of 22/23 23/24 26/27 November 4,330 were killed of whome the bodies of 574 were never recovered. The districts with the most deaths were Tiergarten 793 Charlottenburg 735 and Wedding 548. The dead were foreign workers and 26 were prisoners of war.
The property damage was extensive with 8,701 dwelling buildings destroyed and several times that number damaged
417,665 lost their homes for more than a month and 36,391 for up to a month
Reaching [underlined] Melbourne [/underlined] Yorks
Still heavy fog Diverted to [underline] Pocklington [/underlined] Yorkshire
We managed to land in heavy fog still,
All aircraft had little fuel left and could not find the runway
They were told to (head your A/C out to sea and bale out
[Boxed] 1 Lancaster ran out of fuel and crashed on a farm house. Killing the farmer & wife only the Lancaster R.G. survived
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One night we had to do a very deep dive when another Lancaster that had not seen us came across our path, Mike put our Lancaster into a steep dive to prevent us hitting each other.
After we had settled down and were flying a steady course again, we found that our inter com was not working and we could not speak to each other.
Using my torch I soon found the problem, the inter com battery was not in its place, and the inter com leads were where the battery had left. With a torch I searched along the aircraft and found the battery some distance away. I think the Navigators feet had released the clamp that held the battery in position, and the battery in the steep dive that we did ended up some distance away. Luckily I was able to replace it, and make sure it was clamped down in position.
[Underlined] OPS LEIPZIG [/underlined]
A relative successful raid on Leipzig during the war
24 Aircraft 15 Halifaxes 9 Lancasters were lost 4.6 per cent of the force
The largest building being taken over by the Junkers aircraft company the former world fair exhibition site whose spacious buildings had been converted to become war factories
[This text in the corner appears in following page text] were severely damaged One place that was hit by a exhibition site, whose spaciou [see following page]
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[Underlined] OPS LEIPZIG [/underlined]
[Underlined] LANDED WITTERING DAMAGED BY JU88 [/underlined]
3.12.43
Our crew were told to collect a Lancaster from RAF Waddington. We must take all our flying kit along with us. After arrival at Waddington we found we had to bomb Leipzig with it first then return the Lancaster to Skellingthorpe.
We thought what a strange way to deliver a Lancaster bomber 4 miles to its new airfield
[Second part of page missing – copy shows text from page beneath transcribed below]
A German nightfighter hit us in the port wing I reported that the wing was on fire. Our FL/t Eng came and looked and said, no its just petrol escaping from the wing tanks.
All the engines were then run from that one tank to save petrol being wasted
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[Underlined] OPS LEIPZIG [/underlined]
[Underlined] LANDED WITTERING DAMAGED BY JU88 [/underlined]
[Underlined] 3.12.43 SHORT OF FUEL. (TANKS SHOT UP) [/underlined]
527 Aircraft. 307 Lancasters 220 Halifax’s
Despite the loss of two press men on the previous night the well known American broadcaster Ed Morrow flew on the raid with 619 Sqdn Lancaster crew, he returned safely. The bomber force took another direct route towards Berlin before turning off to bomb Leipzig
German fighters were in the bomber stream and scoring successes befor the turn was made but most of them were then directed to Berlin when the Mosquito diversion opened there.
There were few fighters over Leipzig and only 3 bombers are believed to have been lost in the target area 2 of them being shot down by flak
A relative sucessful raid from the point of view of bomber casualties, was spoiled when many aircraft flew by mistake into th Frankfurt defended area on the long southern withdrawal route and more than half of the bombers shot down this night were lost 4.6 per cent of the force
The Pathfinders found and marked this distant inland target accurately and the bombing was very effective This was the most sucsessful raid on Leipzig during the war a large area of housing and many industrial premises were severely damaged One place that was hit by a large number of bombs was the former world fair exhibition site whose spacious buildings had been conserved to become war factories
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The Wehrmacht suffered damage to 4 flak positions, a clothing store, a veterinary depot and the Army Music School. 64 people were killed and 111 were missing or still covered by wreckage. 23,000 were bombed out. A train standing six miles south of Frankfurt was hit by a 4,000lb bomb and 13 people in it were killed.
Part of the bombing some how fell on Mainz 17 miles to the west and many houses along the Rhine water front and in southern suburbs were hit. 14 people were killed
We circled arround Wittering with little or no fuel left in our tanks, the Wittering phone R/T operator repeated saying the landing lights will soon be on, we waited an waited
Eventually the landing lights did come on and we were able to land with almost empty fuel tanks.
When we entered the Wittering mess we could see what the delay had been to get the landing lights on, as no one was on duty at their watch office, they were all attending the party.
A few years ago, giving our landing date and time to a serving RAF officer, he contacted me and said there was no mention in their flying control log book of our landing that night
Myself and two other crew members stood near the open back door with parachutes on as soon as the engines cut we would jump.
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20.12.43 LANCASTER G ED588.
[Underlined] OPERATIONS FRANKFURT [/underlined]
650 Aircraft 390 Lancasters 257 Halifax’s
14 Lancasters lost
The German control room were able to plot the bomber force as soon as it left the English coast and were able to continue plotting it all the way to Frankfurt. There were many combats on the route to the target. The Mannheim diversion did not draw fighters away from the main attack until after the raid was over. But the return flight was quieter
41 aircraft – [underlined] 27 Halifax’s 14 Lancasters lost 6.3 per cent of the force [/underlined]
The bombing of Frankfurt did no go according to plan. The Pathfinders had prepared a ground marking plan on the basis of a forcast giving clear weather but they found up to 8/10 cloud. The Germans lit decoy fires 5 miles south east of the city and also used dummy target indicators. Some of the bombing fell arround the decoy, but part of the creepback fell on Frankfurt causing more damage than bomber command realized at the time. 466 houses were completely distroyd and 1,948 seriously damaged. In Frankfurt and in the outlying townships of Sachsenhausen and Offenbach 117 bombs hit various industrial premises but no important factories are mentioned. The report stresses the large number of cultural, historical, and public buildings hit, including the cathedral, the city library, the city hospital and no fewer than 69 schools.
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[Underlined] JU88 SHOT DOWN [/underlined]
One night I felt the aircraft start to rise as the engines were open’d up I heard Les our bomb aimer on the inter com say to our mid upper gunner (Jock Higgins) not yet Jock I’ll say when.
He then said OK Jock [underlined] NOW. [/underlined]
By that time I was standing in the astro dome and looking above and in front of our aircraft I could see a German J.U.88 night fighter, flying in front of us, and a little above us.
Our bombaimer Les Bartlett suddenly said Jock now, with that they both open’d fire on the night fighter Ju88.
I noticed that Les seem’d to be spraying the nightfighter from side to side with his twin browning machine guns, but Jock Higgins with the same two machine guns was sending a constant stream of bullets up in the area of the nightfighter where the two crew members would be seated. The German night fighter flew for some time being riddled with bullets until it turned over and started to go down
I would think that it was Sgt Higgins that killed the two German crew members and caused the J.U.88 to crash with continuous firing in the cockpit area. As Les Bartlett was an office, he received ta medal for his efforts, but I still think it was Jock Higgins that brought the aircraft down.
Jock Higgins rec’d nothing
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29.12.43
[Underlined] 7.25 [/underlined]
1707 LM428.
[Underlined] OPS BERLIN INCENDIARY THROUGH STARBOARD OUTBOARD TANK [/underlined]
712 Aircraft, 457 Lancasters, 252 Halifaxes 3 Mosquitoes.
A long approach route from the south, passing south of the Ruhr and then within 20 miles of Leipzig. Together with Mosquito diversions at Dusseldorf, Leipzig and Magdeburg causes the German controller great difficulties and there were few fighters over Berlin. Bad weather on the outward route also kept down the number of German fighters finding the bomber stream
[Underlined] 20 Aircraft 11 Lancasters 9 Halifaxes 2.8 per cent [/underlined] of the force lost
Berlin was again cloud covered, the bomber command report claiming a concentrated attack on skymarkers is not confirmed by the local report. The heaviest bombing was in the southern and south eastern districts but many bombs also fell to the east of the city
388 houses and other mixed property were destroyed but no item of major interest is mentioned.
182 people were killed, more than 600 were injured and over 10,000 were bombed out
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REAR DOOR OPEN
The rear end of the Lancaster near the rear gunners position is one of the coldest parts of the aircraft, but one night our rear gunner said he was freezing in his position at the rear of the aircraft.
I soon found the problem when I got to the rear of the aircraft, the main entrance door was open, and the freezing cold air was coming straight in.
With gloves on I tried to close the the door, but with a two hundred mile wind rushing thro the door way it would’nt close. The Flight Eng came down to help me, but even the two of us could not close it.
We managed to get it partly closed leaving a small gap and tying it back with the dead mans rope The dead mans rope is a long length of rope near the rear door, should one of our crew be unlucky to have one of his legs or arms chopped off the rope was to tie a torch or a lamp on him, and with a parachute on push him out of this back door and hope people will see him coming down and rush him to hospital before he dies.
With the rope we still could nt close the door properly and had to push some heavy clothing into the door cracks to keep out the biting cold wind coming in the aircraft.
Whilst doing this work at the rear of the aircraft we had porable oxygen bottles round our necks all the time, or we would have passed out threw lack of oxygen.
Gloves on hands or you would loose the skin if you touched the bare metal
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1.1.44 OPS BERLIN
23.44
LANCASTER
M/ME 567 [Underlined] 421 LANCASTERS [/underlined] 8.15
German fighters were directed to the bomber stream at an early stage and were particularly active between 2. Route markers on the way to Berlin
The German controller was not deceived by the Mosquito feint at Hamburg. But his fighters were not effective over Berlin. Only 2 bombers being shot down by fighters there, and the local flak was probably restricted to the height at which it could fire and the guns only shot down 2 bombers over the target.
[Underlined] 28 Bombers were lost 6.7 per cent of the force. [/underlined]
The target area was covered in cloud and the accuracy of the sky marking soon deteriorated
The Berlin report says that there was scattered bombing mainly in the southern parts of the city.
A large number of bombs fell in the Grunewald, an extensive wooded area in the south west of Berlin only 21 houses and 1 industrial building were destroyed with 79 people being killed. A high explosive bomb hit a lock on an important canal and stopped shipping at that area for several days
14.1.44 LANCASTER B.LL744
[Underlined] F/O BEETHAM OPS BRUNSWICK [/underlined]
496 Lancasters and 2 Halifaxes on the first major
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We always took of with us a thousand or 2 [underlined] thousand pound overload [/underlined]
As we left the runway the long flames from the exhausts rose over the leading edge of the wings burning the [inserted] paint [/inserted] off the wings I knew there was 2,000 gallons of high grade petrol in tanks under all those flames
[Page break]
Raid to [underlined] Brunswick [/underlined] of the war [underlined] 38 Lancasters were lost [/underlined] 7.6 per cent of the force.
The German running commentary was heard following the progress of the bomber force from a position only 40 miles from the English coast, and many German fighters entered the bomber stream soon after the German frontier was crossed near Bremen. The German fighters scored steadily until the Dutch coast was crossed on the return flight. 11 of the lost aircraft were Pathfinders. Brunswick was smaller than bomber commands usual targets and this raid was not a success. The city report describes this only as a “light raid” with bombs in the south of the city which had only 10 houses destroyed and 14 people killed. Most of the attack fell either in the countryside or in Wolfenbuttel and other small towns and villages well to the south of Brunswick.
20.1.44 LANCASTER B/LL744
F/O BEETHAM [/underlined] OPS BERLIN [/underlined]
[Underlined] 769 Aircraft. 495 Lancasters [/underlined] 264 Halifax’s [underlined] 10 Mosquito’s. [/underlined]
35 Aircraft 22 Halifax’s 13 Lancasters were lost 4.6 per cent of the force
102 Sqdn from Pocklington lost 5 of its 16 Halifaxes on this raid, 2 more crashed in England ->
[Page break]
A CLEAR NIGHT OVER BERLIN
I think my first clear night over Berlin made me realize the terrible bombing coditions that the German folk were having to face
Looking down on Berlin from 3 or 4 miles high, I could see thousands of incendiary bombs burning on the ground. The large wide roads of Berlin showed like a large map
Every few minutes a huge explosion would take place along one of the roads wiping out part of the road plan.
These large explosions were the 4,000lb blast bombs which all the Lancasters carried (known by the RAF men as cookies)
I could see a wide road thro the streets of Berlin, quite clearly with the houses on fire on both sides, then a 4,000lb cookie would drop on the road, and a dark patch would appear where it had left no buildings standing.
Red and green incendiary bombs were still raining down and the RAF Pathfinder men were telling the bomber crews which ones they were to aim at.
I could look at a long wide road thro Berlin, houses on both sides alive with incendiary bombs buring, then a 4,000pb cookie hits the area and leaves a black space.
The master bomber above is shouting out to the aircraft aim at the reds not the greens.
We were expected to sleep when we got to out huts
[Page break]
-> and the squadron would lose 4 more aircraft in the next nights raid
The bomber approach route took a wide swing to the north but once again the German controller manage to feed his fighters into the bomber stream early and the fighters scored steadily until the force was well on the way home. The diversions were not large enough to deceive the Germans
The Berlin areas was, as son often completely cloud covered and what happened to the bombing is a mystery. The Pathfinder sky marking appeared to go according to plan and the crews who were scanning the ground with their H2S sets believed that the attack fell on the eastern districts of Berlin. No major navigational problems were experienced.
No photographic reconnaissance was possible until after a further 4 raids on Berlin were carried out but the various sources from which the Berlin reports are normally drawn all show a complete blank for this night. It is not known whether this is because of some order issued by the German authorities to conceal the extent of the damage, or whether the entire raid missed Berlin
[Page break]
[Underlined] 1,000lb BOMB IN BOMB BAY [/underlined]
One early morning after we had been on an operation we taxied the Lancaster back to our usual dispersal point at Skellingthorpe
The engines were shut down and all was quiet as we started collecting our loose flying kit together.
Suddenly we heard a large thud and at first we though a van had bumped into us. Then there was the sound of something rolling along the side of the aircraft.
Our bomb aimer Les Bartlett opened his bomb bay inspection door and was shocked at what he saw.
A thousand pound bomb had fell from from its station on to the bomb bay doors and it had rolled down the sloping bomb bay and had crashed at the rear of the bomb bay.
We did’nt know if it was still live and had to warn the ground crews, unless they opened to bomb bay doors where it would fall out.
We never did know how they made it all safe.
[Page break]
[Underlined] OPS BERLIN SPOOF ATTACK [/underlined]
27.1.44
[Underlined] F/LT BEETHAM [/underlined]
[Underlined] OPS BERLIN [/underlined]
515 Lancasters and 15 Mosquitoes
The German fighters were committed to action earlier than normal, some being sent out 75 miles over the North Sea from the Dutch coast. But the elaborate feints and diversions had some effect. Half of the German fighters were lured north by the Heligoland mining diversion and action in the main bomber stream was less intense than on recent nights.
33 Lancasters lost 6.4 per cent.
The target was cloud covered again and sky marking had to be used again. Bomber command was not able to make any assessment of the raid except to state that the bombing appeared to have been spread over a wide area, although many bombs fell in the southern half of the city, less in the north but 61 small towns and villages outside the city limits were also hit. With 28 people being killed in these places. Details of houses in Berlin are not available but it is known that nearly 20,000 people were bombed out. 50 industrial premises were hit and several important war industries suffered serious damage.
567 people were killed including 132 foreign workers.
[Page break]
[Underlined] FOG OVER AIRFIELD ON RETURN [/underlined]
All with little fuel left
Most sqdns sent up 20 A/C to target
2 Sqdns on each airfield (approx.) 36 A/C Each A/C had little more than 20 mins fuel left [underlined] No 1 [/underlined] would ask permision to land.
He was told to orbit at 3,000ft and as he circled he had to shout his position on the circuit such as (railway bridge) (cross roads) (Thompson’s farm) (reservoir)
As he circled he was called to decen’d to 2,000ft but still had to shout his number and position as he circled the airfield
Finally he was called down to 1,00 F shouting his position on the circuit No 1 down wind, then No 1 funnels No 1 touching down, then No 1 clear
No 2 would follow behind shouting out their positions on the circuit. Followed by No 3 doing the same
By shouting out their number and position and height the controller called them down
All crew’s had then to go to de-briefing
[Page break]
[Underlined] INSTRUCTING W/OPS [/underlined]
[Underlined] SILVERSTONE & TURWESTON [/underlined]
JUNE 1944 TILL END OF WAR
Of the 4319 men in the A/C shot downn attacking only [underlined] 992 [/underlined] survived 22.9 per cent.
On take off with 2,000lb overload
100 miles per hour were needed for take off
A gate stopped the throttle.
If the speed was not fast enough the pilot would say to the enineer [underlined] thro the gate [/underlined] and the gate was open’d to give more power
[Page break]
[Underlined] INTERNATIONAL DISTRESS [/underlined] SIGNAL.
[Underlined] SOS [/underlined]
ˑˑˑ / --- / ˑˑˑ
You would be told to divert to another airfield if there was fog over Lincolnshire where our airfield is. And stay there with the aircraft
[Underlined] DIVERSIONS F.I.D.O [/underlined]
[Underlined] FOG INTENSIVE DISPERSAL OF [/underlined]
[Underlined] FISKERTON 49 [/underlined] SQDN.
[Underlined] ASTRO DOME (FOR NAVIGATOR [/underlined] degrees & minutes
[Underlined] USING A SEXTANT. [/underlined]
Taking astro shots of the stars.
[Underlined] Polaris Bennet Nash Dubhi [/underlined]
[Page break]
2
Switch off IFF (Identity Friend or Foe)
Continuous watch on Monica screen
Listen out on given wave band for German speech
Tune my transmitter and jamb any speech
Wind in trailing aerial when over the cost [underlined] German [/underlined]
Pass bundles of window down to Flight Engineer
Transmit height and wind speed back to base. Details from Navigator.
Keep watching Monica screen whilst listening for German speech on given wave band
Obtain bearing from given [inserted] radio [/inserted] beacon for Nav, using loop aerial
Take hot coffee to the two Gunners
On clear nights, obtain sextant shots of given stars asked for by Navigator
On run up to target get in astro dome and watch for any bombers above us
Receive messages from base. Decode them & pass to pilot
Send more winds back to base. Our Nav is a wind finder
Shout out [underlined] contact [/underlined when a blip comes on Monica screen
Keep searching for German R/T speech.
After leaving enemy coast, let out trailing aerial
Switch on IFF when near English coast
Place colours of the day cartridges in Very pistol
[Page break]
3
Wind in trailing aerial crossing the English coast
If a diversion message is received on reachin the English coast, contact the diversion airfield and obtain a [underlined] QDM [/underlined] for the Navigator.
A QDM, is a coarse to steer to take you to the airfield.
You have to stay there with the aircraft. No washing or shaving equip. money or pygamas etc. Some times for two or three days if our aircraft needs work on it to be carried out
After landing you have to attend debriefing where you are asked a lot of questions before getting any sleep.
[Underlined] WHEN LOST. DARKY WATCH [/underlined]
“Hello” Darky”
Hello Darky
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4
[Underlined] SKELLINGTHORPE SITE [/underlined]
No washing arrangements were available on our living quarters site. Just toilet & sleeping quarters All shaving & showers etc were in the Seargeans Mess. All toilet items kept in small haversack hanging on peg’s. After a few weeks we were told to remove our toilet haversacks for one day only.
The ones still on the pegs were the property of the men missing
[Page break]
[Underlined] CANADIAN AIRMEN. [/underlined]
Three NCO members of our crew were housed in a tin hut at Skellingthorpe
We had the hut to ourselves.
Arriving back after our leave, three extra beds were in the hut occupies by three Canadians
They were very generous, and told us to help ourselves from all the boxes of food arround the hut. Tins and packages all arround us.
The S.W.O. Station Warrant Officer came in and looking at it all said, I will be in this hut ever night at 7 oclock and if it is [inserted] not [/inserted] clean and tidy you wont be allowed out until it is. We had to wait for his insection every evening before we could visit Ena and Joan in Lincoln
A short time after the Canadians were shot down over Germany, all their contents were taken away and the hut was tidy again
The S.W.O. then said we could go out in our own time he would not visit us again. It probably took the death of three nice Canadians to allow Fred and myself to take Ena & Joan for an early meal.
And they were taken away
[Page break]
Whilst flying over Germany I would search a wave band on my radio.
I would listen for German speech sounding like giving orders to people.
I would tune my transmitter to that frequency and prese my morse key.
This would transmit the noise of one of our aircraft engines on that frequency as there was a microphone in that engine
On one long German operation, bad weather was forecast for our return over Lincoln and we were told to land St. Eval, Cornwall Some hours later I received another message which said cancel the previous message return to base.
Our Wing Commanders wireless operator did’nt get this message and he landed in Cornwall. On his return to Skellingthorpe, crowds of aircrew members line’d the runway to cheer him in.
At our next briefing, the Wing Co. said Wireless Operators make sure you get all the messages from Group, not like some clot that dos’nt get them. Jagger his Wireless Op got up and said, if that’s what you think of me you can get someone else to fly with you[inserted] tonight sir [/inserted] and with that he then left the room to go,
[Page break]
28.1.44
LANCASTER B/LL744 [Underlined] OPS BERLIN [/underlined]
677 Aircraft [Underlined] 432 Lancasters 241 Halifaxes 4 Mosquito’s [/underlined]
Part of the German fighter force was drawn up by the early diversions and the bomber approach route over northern Denmark proved too distant for some of the other German fighters. The German controller was however able to concentrate his fighters over the target and many aircraft were shot down there [underlined] 46 aircraft 26 Halifax’s 20 Lancasters [/underlined] lost 6.8 per cent of the force
The cloud over Berlin was broken and some ground marking was possible, but the bomber command claim that this was the most concentrated attack of this period is not quite fully confirmed by German records.
The western and southern districts were hit but so too were 77 places out side the city. The Berlin recording system was now showing an increasing deterioration no overall figure for property damage was recorded Approximately 180,000 people were bombed out on this night. Although many industrial firms were again hit the feature of the night is the unusually high proportion of administrative and public buildings appearing in the list of buildings hit. The new Chancellery, 4 theatres, the French Cathedral, 6 hospitals, 5 embassies, the state patent office etc, the report concludes with the entry the casualties are still not known
RAF Police came forward to stop him and the Wing Co. said let him go.
[Page break]
28.1.44
LANCASTER B/LL744 [Underlined] OPS BERLIN [/underlined]
677 Aircraft [Underlined] 432 Lancasters 241 Halifaxes 4 Mosqioto’s [/underlined]
Part of the German fighter force was drawn up by the early diversions and the bomber approach route over northern Denmark proved too distant for some of the other German fighters. The German controller was however able to concentrate his fighters over the target and many aircraft were shot down there [underlined] 46 aircraft 26 Halifax’s 20 Lancasters [/underlined] lost 6.8 per cent of the force
The cloud over Berlin was broken and some ground marking was possible, but the bomber command claim that this was the most concentrated attack of this period is not quite fully confirmed by German records.
The western and southern districts were hit but so too were 77 places outside the city. The Berlin recording system was now showing an increasing deterioration no overall figure for property damage was recorded Approximately 180,000 people were bombed out on this night. Although many industrial firms were again hit the feature of the night is the unusually high proportion of administrative and public buildings appearing in the list of buildings hit. The new Chancellery, 4 theatres, the French Cathedral, 6 hospitals, 5 embassies, the state patent office etc, the report concludes with the entry the casualties are still not known but they are bound to be considerable. It is reported that a vast amount of wreckage must still be clearid. Rescue workers are among the mountains of it. *Report os Technischen Nothilfe Gau 111-Berlin Berlin and Brandenburg. In Berlin City Archives
[Page break]
Reg Payne flew with 91 different pilots during his service in the RAF
Flew with Sir Michael Beetham as pilot 108 times
362 official flights were made during his RAF service, plus a lot of unofficial flights not recorded in his log book
After one operation after returning to our dispersal, and switching everything off a 1,000lb bomb came detatched from its moring in the bomb bay, luckily the bomb bay doors were closed. It rolled down the bomb bay and made a clonk as it reached the bottom. We don’t know how the ground crew delt with it.
During one operation the gunners complained how cold it was, I was asked to look into this. Going to the rear of the A/C I saw that the rear door was open. It could not be closed agains the slip stream but we tied it up as close as we could, and then pushed spare heavy flying clothing in the small gaps.
[Page break]
[Underlined] KENSINGTON ALBERT HALL [/underlined]
Wireless instruction in Science Museum.
Meals in Victoria & Albert Museum
Bedrooms in Albert Court next to Hall
“P.T.” in Albert Hall (boxing) etc.
Football in Kensington Gardens
[Underlined] BOXING ALBERT HALL [/underlined]
P.T. instructor sort us out in pairs boxing gloves on.
Instructor shouts Get stuck into each other or I’ll get stuck in to the pair of you
[Page break]
[Underlined] FIRST OPERATION BERLIN [/underlined]
[Underlined] 16.45 hrs [/underlined]
2,000lb overload Beetham spared this
NOV 22ND 764 A/C 7HRS 15MINS
26 A/C Lost 169 killed
Dispersal 1 hour before take off
Check all aerials/W/T./Monica./SBA/IFF/Trailing/Gee/Loop
[Underlined] Gunners getting ready [/underlined]
[Underlined] 17.05hrs BERLIN AGAIN [/underlined] Trailing aerial out [underlined] over the [/underlined] sea
NOV 23rd. [Underlined] IFF switched on [/underlined]
383 A/C 7hrs 45 mins
Navigator reading airspeeds at take off flames from exhausts 20 A/C lost [underlined] while taking off [/underlined]
130 killed
[Underlined] ON LANDING [/underlined]
Flaps frozen up, [Underlined] Refused landing [/underlined] Diverted to RAF Wittering
Bath ready in the morning
[Page break]
[Underlined] 3RD OPERATION [/underlined]
NOV 26TH [Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined]
17.20HRS
443 A/C 8HRS 5MINS
28 A/C lost 202 killed
[Underlined] Fog over Lincoln [/underlined] 14 damaged beyond repair
Diverted to Melbourne (Yorks)
[Underlined] Fog also over Melbourne [/underlined]
5 A/C crashed landing
Head your A/C out to sea and B.O.
Back to Skellingthorpe 2 days later
K King hit farm house. Farmer and wife killed
Only rear gunner survived
No cash or shaving kit on operation toothe brush etc.
[Page break]
3 times to Berlin in 5 nights
Cold bed at nights thinking about it.
EXTRACT FROM OFFICIAL GERMAN RECORDS ABOUT BERLIN RAID NOV 22ND
The most effective raid of the war on Berlin 3,000 houses and 23 industrial premises were completely destroyed with several thousands of other buildings damaged
175,000 people were bombed out
More than 50,000 soldiers were brought in to help from garrisons up to 100KM distance. Equivalent to three army divisions taken from their normal duties
Buildings destroyed or severely damaged are the Kaiser Wilhelm, Memorial Church (now a memorial) the Charlottenburg Castle, the Berlin Zoo, much of the Unter den Linden, the British, French, Italian, and Japanese embassies. The Ministry of Weapons and Munitions, the Waffen SS. admin college. The barracks of the Imperial Guard at Spandau, and many industrial premises inc. 5 factories of the Siemens Group, and the Alkett tank works, recently removed from the Ruhr. 2,000 people killed inc 500 in a large shelter which received a direct hit, and 105 people in another shelter near the gas works, where there was a huge explosion.
[Page break]
[Underlined] DEC 3rd [/underlined] 0023 HRS 527 A/C
[Underlined] LEIPZIG [/underlined 7HRS 50MINS
24 A/C lost 120 killed
Damaged by JU88 Fuel tanks ruptured short of fuel
Landed at Wittering
Officers Mess party no landing lights
Bath in the morning (much better conditions than at Skellingthorpe)
DEC 20TH 17.26 HRS 41 A/C Lost 193 killed
[Underlined] FRANKFURT [/underlined] 5HRS 40MINS
A/C G ED588 Did over 100 operations
DEC 29TH 17.07 HRS
[Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined] 20 A/C lost 79 killed
30lb phosphorous incendiary thro stbrd outer fuel tank.
We didn’t know about it.
Wing/Co took Beetham out to A/C after breakfast to show him hole in wing
[Page break]
[Underlined] JAN 1ST 1944 [/underlined] 23.44HRS NEW YEARS DAY 421 A/C.
BERLIN 8HRS 15MINS
28 A/C lost
Had to take the mid upper an axe spare mid upper smashes Perspex of turret Turret perspex frozen over
JAN 5TH 0005HRS STETTIN (TOUCHING SWEDEN)
358 A/C 8HRS 40MINS 16 A/C lost
Lancaster was fired on from another Lancaster
JAN 14TH 17.15HRS BRUNSWICK
498 A/C 5HRS 10MIN 38 A/C lost
Freda and Joans Lincoln Imps
Fred R/G forgot Lincoln Imp whilst on peri track.
Van driver collected it before take off
[Page break]
JAN 20TH [Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined]
16.35HRS
769 A/C 7HRS 35 A/C lost
Coned by searchlights Inter.comm battery became loose
No sound on inter com
2,400 tons of bombs dropped
Collected the HT battery from rear of A/C and re connected it
JAN 21st 19.51 HRS
22 A/C [Underlined] berlin [/underlined] spoof attack → 1 A/C lost
Main operation Magdeburg → 66 A/C lo
7 HRS 25MINS
Back door open. [Underlined] Tie up with rope Would not close. Slipstream [/underlined]
Dead mans rope at the rear door
Torch and knife in boots
[Page break]
FEB 25TH 18.35 HRS
[Underlined] AUGSBURG [/underlined]
594 A/C 8HRS 21 A/C lost.
Oil temperature much too high on one engine
Returned on 3 engines
Oil temp guage U/S
Nothing wrong with engine
Mike Beetham flying Lancasters promoted to Flight [inserted] LTD [/inserted] Commander
Could not drive car
Help from WAAFs.
1ST MARCH 23.19 HRS
[Underlined] STUTTGART [/underlined]
594 A/C 8HRS 10MINS 4 A/C lost
Thick cloud on route and over target
Night fighters unable to locate bomber stream
Much damage to Stuttgart
[Underlined] On the bomb run left left etc. [/underlined]
[Underlined] Bomb doors open Very cold draught when open. [/underlined]
[Page break]
JAN 27TH 17.17 HRS
[Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined
530 A/C 8.55 MINS 33 A/C lost
Off inter comm. High engine rev’s
Les and Jock attack Ju88
Of Les gets DFM, Jock goth nothing
JAN 28TH 0021 HRS
[Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined
677 A/C 7HRS 55MINS 46 A/C lost
Washing & shaving items
Haversacks collected from Sgts mess from airmen missing
19TH FEB 23.55 HRS
[Underlined] LEIPZIG [/underlined
823 A/C 7HRS 78 A/C lost
Returning home over North Sea (dawn reduce hight to stay in the dark
[Page break]
12.2.44
[Underlined] FIGHTER AFFILIATION [/underlined]
12.2.44 We were detailed to fly a short distance up into Yorkshire and to meet up with a Spitfire, who would contact us and when ready would continue to dive on us and give us advice on our defensive moves. In our Lancaster we had our full crew of seven personel, plus another pilot and his two gunners.
Our pilot Sir Michael Beetham decided that he and our two gunners would do the exercise first. With our two gunners in the turrets and Michael in the pilots seat, the attacks began all of them ending in the Lancaster doing cork screws to prevent the Spitfire from shooting him down. After 10 or 15 mins, the other pilot took over from Michael, and his gunners made for the turrets.
When all was ready the Spitfire came in for it first attack, the Lancaster went into a steep dive. I don’t think I have ever dived so steep before in a Lancaster, and so fast. On pulling out of the dive I noticed smoke round the port outer engine, and then there were flames.
Michael shouted a warning on the inter com and to our flight eng to use the fire extinwishes
[Page break]
With the extinuish’s working the flames vanished, with just smoke and steam, however once the extinguisher was empty the flames came back again, and seemed to be spreading down the wing. From the port outer engine the wing was on fire, and as the fire extinguisher was now finished and the fire spreading down the wing Michael gave the order to abandon the aircraft.
With ten crew members on board there was a move to the two exits, my pilot and navigator baled out at the nose exit, followed by the other pilot.
The rear door was open and Jock Higgins our M.U.G. baled out there, Les Bartlett our B.A. also left from there, when I arrived at the rear door they made way for me to go next. I had just left looking at the large fire in the port wing and I knew it was about to break off. I baled out.
Looking down I could only see 10 tenth cloud 3,000ft below me and I did’nt know if we were still over the Humber Estury
As I was falling to earth I found I was pulling one of the canvas handles and not the metal release handle. With the correct handle my chute opened, and looking up I saw part of the port wing following me down Also I could see the coast and I was drifting towards it. At the same time I heard the crash as the Lancaster crashed a few miles in land. I was drifting towards the Lincoln
[Page break]
shore, and I could see all the smoke drifting up in the sky from where it crashed
I made a soft landing in a field quite near East Kirkby airfield, quite close to where the Lancaster crashed. I was told that four of the crew were still in the aircraft when it went down. And I was asked if I would help them decide which body was who. As they were so badly crushed I did’nt want to go near them
[Underlined] REG [/underlined]
The four airmen killed were the other pilots 2 gunners.
Also our rear gunner Fred Ball our flight eng Don Moore
Fred Ball and Joan
Reg and Ena
The two ATS girls
Fred Ball was due to take Joan home to his house in [missing word] on their next leave together. But that was no longer possible
But Reg & Ena found it drew them closer together
[Underlined] Reg was made a member of the Caterpillar Club. [/underlined] Irving parachute.
[Pgae break]
19.2.44
[Underlined] OPERATIONS LEIPZIG [/underlined]
19.2.44 823 Aircraft 561 Lancaster 255 Halifax’s 7 Mosquitoes,
44 Lancasters and 34 Halifax’s lost 9.5 per cent of the force. The Halifax loss rate was 13.3 per cent of those dispatched and 14.9 per cent of those Halifaxes which reached the enemy coast after early returns had turned back. The Halifax 2’sand 5’s were permanently withdrawn from operations to Germany after this raid.
This was an unhappy raid for bomber command.
The German controllers only sent part of their force of fighters to te Kiel minelaying diversion. When the main bomber force crossed the Dutch coast they were met by a further part of the German fighter force and those German fighters which had been sent north to Kiel hurriedly returned. The bomber stream was this under attack all the way to the target. There were further difficulties at the target because winds were not as forcast and many aircraft reached the Leipzig area too early and had to orbit and await the Pathfinders. 4 aircraft were lost by collision and approximately 20 were shot down by flak.
Leipzig was cloud covered and the Pathfinders had to use sky marking. The raid appeared to be concentrated in its early stages but scattered later. There are few details of the effects of the bombing. No report is available from Germany and there was no immediate post raid reconnaissance flight. When photographs were eventually taken they included the results of an American raid which took place on the following day.
[Page break]
Reg Payne flew with 91 different pilots during his RAF service
Flew with Sir Michael Beetham his pilot 108 times
362 official flights made during his RAF service. Plus a large no of unofficial flights not recorded in his log book
After my operational flying at Skellingthorpe as a rest period I was sent to RAF Silverstone No 14 OTU, an Operational Training Unit
This made it rather difficult for me to see my ATS sweetheart in Lincoln.
I always visited her on my days off in Lincoln. Arriving back in the train one evening, I left the railway station at Brackley quite close to my airfield at Turweston. My bike was left chained to the station railings ready for me to ride back to Turweston a short distance away. A WAAF was in the same rail coach as me, she also was based with me, and worked in our Sgts mess. I asked her how she was getting to our airfield a couple of miles away. She said walk I suppose. I had my bike with me & she was please when I offered her a ride on my cross bar. All went well until near the airfield down a dark unlit lane, the pedals of my bike dug into the grass and we both ended up in the ditch. Luckily we were both not hurt, but decided we would walk the rest of the way, and I left her at the gates of the WAAFs site
[Page break]
Having all my meals in the Sgts mess, I thought I would see her again, and finally I asked one of the WAAFs if she was working there still. She smiled at me and said not any more, I then said why not, she then shook me and said, she’s had a dishonourable discharge, I asked what ever for, and she replied, she has had a mis-carriage and is in hospital. I could only think our bike accident was the cause of it. I never met her again.
[Page break]
[Underlined] OPS. AUGSBURG. RETURNED ON 3 ENGINES [/underlined]
25.2.44 23.55 Lancaster B LL744
F/Lt Beetham W.OP.
[Underlined] OPS LEIPZIG [/underlined 7.0PM
823 Aircraft – 561 Lancasters 255 Halifax’s 7 Mosquito’s 44 Lancaster and 34 Halifaxes lost 9.5 per cent of the force The Halifax loss rate was 13.3 per cent of those dispatched and 14.9 per cent of those Halifaxes which reached the enemy coast after early returns had turned back. The Halifax IIs and Vs were permanently withdrawn from operations to Germany after this raid
This was an unhappy raid for bomber command, the German controllers only sent part of their force of fighters to the Kiel minelaying diversion. When the main bomber force crossed the Dutch coast they were met by a further part of the German fighter force and those German fighter which had been sent north to Kiel hurriedly returned.
The bomber stream was thus under attack all the way to the target. There were further difficulties at the target because winds were not as forecast and many aircraft reached the Leipzig area too early and had to orbit and await the Pathfinders. 4 aircraft were lost by collision and approximately 20 were shot down by flak
Leipzig was cloud covered and the Pathfinders had to use sky marking. The raid appeared to be concentrated in its early stages but scattered later. There are few details of the effects of the bombing. No report is available from Germany and there was no immediate post raid reconnaissance flight, when photographs were eventually taken they included the results
[Page break]
BALING OUT OF THE LANCASTER
In a short time the whole port wing had flames along it, and Michael Beetham gave the order for us to bale out
With ten members of the crew in the aircraft we all had to move swiftly
Les Bartlett our bomb aimer left the astro dome where he had been filming the spitfire and baled out of the rear door followed by Jock Higgins. My pilot and navigator baled out of the front escape hatch
I made my way to the rear exit and baled out, below me all I could see was cloud, we were at 6,000ft, I did’nt know if we were over the Humber Estury or over land. We did not have Mae Wests on
As I was floating down on my chute, part of the port wing was above, luckily it passed by me.
Unfortunately the Australians two gunners didn’t bale out and were both killed
Worst of all our flight eng did not bring his chute because he told it was only a local flight
I think our rear gunner waited to late to jump.
Don our flight eng didn’t stand a chance He said he had not taken his parachute because it was only a training flight
Some time later after I had left the RAF, a friend of mine from East Kirkby took me to the crash side. We dug up a human pelvis and lots of metal that I had melted down and made into small Lancasters
[Page break]
9TH MARCH 20.42 HRS
[Underlined] MARSEILLES FRANCE [/underlined]
No A/C lost.
44 A/C of 5. Group. 8hrs 55mins
AIRCRAFT FACTORY BOMBED 10,000FT.
Practice flight before op with Air/Comm Hesketh Flew over target to get French workers clear before bombing
24TH MAR. [Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined]
811 a/c 7hrs 20mins 72 A/C lost
FOG OVER LINCOLNSHIRE LANDED FOULSHAM (NORFOLK
Tea with rum Massive searchlight & birds 2.30am.
[Underlined] EXPLAIN DARKY PROCEDURE [/underlined]
26TH MARCH 44 19.50HRS
[Underlined] ESSEN [/underlined]
705 A/C 5hrs 5mins 9 A/C lost
Jock pinching coal from compound
Bombs make a metalic jolt as each one leaves
[Page break]
30TH MARCH 19.50HRS
[Underlined] NUREMBURG [/underlined]
[Underlined] BELGUIM [/underlined]
795 A/C 7hrs 45mins 95 A/C lost
5 Northants airmen killed on this op.
Kettering man Arthur Johnson killed with all his crew
4 of our Sqdn were missing
Trevor Roper Gibsons R/G on the dams raid was killed
60 miles of burning A/C across Belgium
Aircraft flying in bright moonlight
200 mile strait leg to north of the target leaving large contrails behind
60 A/C lost
5TH APRILX 20.31 [underlined] TOULOUSE [/underlined] 6HRS 55 MINS
144 A/C of 5 Group [underlined] AIRCRAFT FACTORY [/underlined]
One aircraft exploded over the target.
The factory was severely damaged but 22 people killed in houses near by
[Page break]
[Underlined] HUMBER ESTUARY [/underlined]
12TH FEB [underlined] FIGHTER AFFILIATION [/underlined]
Baled out at 6,00ft
Pilot P.O. Jennings RAAF & two gunners
Les and his camera
Don [inserted] Moore [/inserted] No parachute
Jock on the tail
Me pulling wrong handle
Over the sea or over the land Baling out watching Don Moore (no parachute)
Large reservoir
P/O Jennings in the trees
Tablets from M.O.
Ena ringing Sgts mess
Looking over at Freds bed that night
Freds Lincoln Imp on tunic (not wearing it.
[Underlined] 1979 VISIT CRASH SITE PELVIS FOUND [/underlined]
Explain landing procedure at airfield after [underlined] returning to base Black Swan from Pilgrim B. Baker [/underlined] etc
[Page break]
2252HRS
28TH APRIL [underlined] ST MEDARD BORDEAUX [/underlined]
88 A/C 8HRS No A/C lost
Explosive factory
Markers set woods on fire
Unable to see target
Bombs returned to base
22.35HRS
29TH APRIL [underlined] ST MEDARD BORDEAUX [/underlined]
68 A/C 7HRS 20MINS No A/C lost
Explosive factory destroyed
Message (master bomber) do not bomb below “4,000FT
Blast lifted up our A/C
21.35HRS
1ST MAY 44 [underlined] TOULOUSE [/underlined]
131 A/C 5HRS 35MINS No A/C lost
Aircraft factory & Explosives factory
Both targets hit.
[Page break]
23.21HRS
[Underlined] 22ND APRIL BRUNSWICH [/underlined]
238 A/C 6HRS 4 A/C lost
617 Sqdn Mosquito’s marked target
Thin could over target hampered the bombing
[Underlined] 1,000lb bomb still in bomb bay after [/underlined] landing
Rolled down bomb bay after landing
[Underlined] 21.35 HRS SCHWEINFURT [/underlined
[Underlined] 26TH April [/underlined]
206 A/C 8HRS 50 MINS 21 A/C lost
Unexpected strong winds
Raid not a success
F/St Jackson Flt/Eng Awarded V.C. for climbing out on wing of A/C to put out fire in engine
FW 190 below Lanc. But didn’t fire at it.
[Page break]
11 TH APRIL 20.30
[Underlined] AACHEN [/underlined] 4 HRS
341 A/C 9 A/C lost
Always wanted to bomb Aachen
They gave us so much AA when it was used as a turning point
German civilian population all prepared for RAF raids. All their cellars were joined together with tunnels
The roof attic timbers coated with lime
18TH APRIL 44 [underlined] JUVISEY PARIS [/underlined] 4.25HRS
202 A/C RAILWAY TERMINAL 1 A/C lost
5 Group effort with master bomber Red spot marking
20TH APRIL 44 [underlined LA CHAPELLE [/underlined] (PARIS) 4HRS 30MINS
270 A/C 6 A/C lost
[Underlined] Rail target north of Paris [/underlined]
[Underlined] Washing & shaving equipment [/underlined]
[Underlined] Haversacks in Sgts mess. [/underlined]
Collected from hooks after approx. 6 weeks
[Page break]
Although operations were detailed one night our crew were not detailed.
I needed a few items for myself from the shops in Lincoln and went there on my own to purchase them.
Lincoln city was very quiet. Not an aircraft in the sky and you could hear all the traffic noises.
Suddenly the crackling noise of a heavily laden Lancaster bomber climbed over the roof tops from one airfield, then followed by another from another airfield. This was followed by dozens of Lancasters circling round the city, heavily laden with tons of bombs. The people of Lincoln were used to this, as they knew that once on their way to Germany it would be quiet until they returned some hours later
[Page break]
[Underlined] WE HAD TO BURY REAR GUNNER AT BIRMING [/underlined]
End of tour operations.
Returning after 7 days leave
5 – 50 Sqdn crews missing from raids whilst away
4 on Mailly le Camp.
15 Lancs flown whilst with 50 Sqdn 14 lost soon after.
[Underlined] No interest in football what so ever [/underlined]
[Underlined] DURING MY 30 OPERATIONS [/underlined]
691 aircraft lost
3967 aircrew killed
1111 P.O.W.’s
209 hrs over Germany (all at night) over 8 days.
Of the 4319 men in the A/C attacking Berlin who were shot down in the 18 raids only 992 survived 22.9 per cent.
[Page break]
Fred and Reg Ena Goodrich and Joan Brighty
[Underlined] THE LINCOLN IMP [/underlined]
Ena & Joan our two ATS girl friends gave us both a little Lincoln Imp badge to wear on our clothing when flying. They were known as very lucky items. Fred liked to pin his to his blazor when he went out in the evening, and pin it to his flying jacket when flying.
One evening when we were on operations being taken to our aircraft, Fred said to the driver of our transport, I have’nt got my Lincoln Imp (I never fly without it) Fred told him our hut number, 1st bed on left, Lincoln Imp on blazor hanging above bed.
The driver after dropping us at our A/C sped off to our hut, in ten minutes he was back with Freds Lincoln Imp. We all felt much better.
It was some time after, during a local parachute jumping afternoon, we had ten men in the Lancaster and only six of us managed to bale out before the Lancaster crashed. The other four men were killed Fred our rear gunner was one of them.
As I lay’d in my bed the next morning with Fred’s bed next to mine, his uniform jacket hung in the sun light: something on the pocket lapel caught the sunlight. It was Freds Lincoln Imp
[Page break]
AIRCRAFT & AIRCREW LOSSES DURING REG’S 30 OPERATIONS
[Table of aircraft with losses and details of crews]
Total number of A/C lost on these operations [underlined] 562. [/underlined]
Total number of aircrew killed [underlined] 4,300. 1206 POW’s
Average number of A/C on each operation 425.
Of the 4319 men in the A/C shot down attacking Berlin only 992 survived 22.9 per cent
[Page break]
BOMBER COMMAND LOSSES 8,325 AIRCRAFT.
1 in every 7 aircrew were killed in training
[Underlined] 1942 [/underlined] Only 3 in every 10 crews would finish a tour
3 groups od U.S. P40’s had sweepd German airfields in the afternoon prior to Nuremburg
Many say after pilots releasing their brakes and getting close to 105mph. was the moment of greatest fear. Sitting between 12 tons of petrol and explosives
6 nights before the Nuremburg raid 72 bombers were lost over Berlin
[Page break]
Killed on the Nuremburg raid
545 RAF crew
129 German civilian and military inc 11 Luftwaffe
[Underlined] 5 airmen from Northants killed [/underlined]
F/Sgt T J Hirst Weedon
F/O H C Frost Northampton
Sgt A J Johnson Kettering
Sgt J.P G Binder Moulton
Sgt G.W. Walker Geddington
In all during WWII 14,000 tons of bombs were dropped on Nuremburg. 6,369 Germans killed
A crew member had 1 in 4 chance when shot down
In the 5 month period known as the Battle of Berlin, it cost bomber command 1,123 A/C missing over enemy territory and crashes in England More than the entire strength of bomber command
Cyril Barton was the only Halifax pilot to gain V.C.
After Nuremburg, Mosquitoes went out with the bombers using the latest Mark X radar. Before this it was never allowed over enemy territory
[Page break]
[Underlined] NUREMBURG [/underlined]
41 Second Dicky’s took part in raid 9 killed 2 POW’s
9 Flight Commanders lost all killed
Half missing crews had done less than 10 ops.
30 missing had done less than 5 ops.
9 crews missing on their first op.
Out of 64 Lancs shot down only 4 rear gunners survived
101 Sqdn lost 7 A/C
51 Sqdn lost 6
Sgt Brinkhurst was the only crew member to get back to England after being shot down by a Halifax mid/upper gunner
Most men after being shot down in Germany, after taking off their parachutes, felt a sense of relief and were glad to be alive
No Mosquito carrying Oboe was ever shot down
[Page break]
Finally the moon set 1.48am, 3 hrs flight home against head winds
Martin Becker had shot down 6 bombers, he landed and re fuelled then shot down another Halifax. The rear gunner never saw him
50 men in Beckers 7 A/C 34 died
Major Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer had shot down 121 bombers
The spread of bombers was 160 miles wide when crossing the coast home at 4am.
F/Lt Snell PFF pilot over Nuremburg 0107, landed base Downham Market 0410by direct route home 25 mins before the next A/C landed
Some crews 100 miles off track
Our crew crossed coast at Calais instead of 80 miles further south
P/O Barton crossed Durham coast 200 miles off track and crash landed. 3 crew survived.
Cyril Barton died – VC.
14 A/C crashed in this country.
[Underlined] East Kirkby [/underlined] 5 crews had there leave stopped to go on this operation 2 aborted 2 shot down.
[Page break]
NUREMBERG
Sgt Handley 50 Sqdn crashed RAF Winth [missing rest of word] All crew okay.
But all crew killed 5 weeks later Mailey le Camp.
When we were interrogated we were asked, How many did you think we have lost. Our M/U said about 100 and they said “Come off it Sgt. ” and poo pooed it.
Bennett was angry when he heard of the losses
One third of bombers shot down by 8 pilots
Nav F L Chipperfield 619 Sqdn Coningsby composed the Warsaw Concerto was on this raid
Our crew were No 1 airborne at Skellingthorpe at 2200 later Flt.Sgt Bucknall burst a tyre on take off and came off the runway “Wing & engine ripped out”
52 A/C Boomerang’d
4.7% Lancs
14.2 Halifaxs.
1.8 PFF.
2,600 tons of bombs carried all together
[Page break]
NUREMBURG
The forecast winds the bombers were using were not accurate & blew crews to the north
German night fighters still had navigation lights on when they first saw the bombers
The SN-2 improved radar could locate bomber even if they were using window.
Walter Heidenreich switched on radar and saw unusual blip. It was two Lancs flying together for company (it was so bright) He shot them both down with (slanting music)
Helmut Schuite shot down 4 A/C with 56 cannon shells
P/O Cyril Barton’s A/C on fire.
Nav, W/OP & B/A bale out
After fires are put out he still carried on with 3 engines loosing 400 gals fuel
Aircraft burning on ground lit up the sky
Our nav told crew not to report any more A/C being shot down
[Page break]
NUREMBURG
9 out of 10 pilots would always corkscrew port. The German pilots would allow for this
50 Mosquito night/fighters were in bomber stream, their radar could not pick up the signals from the German night fighters
The RAF radio station at Kingsdown could hear the claims of bombers being shot down and knew bomber command was in trouble
The long leg 200 miles 1 hr flying. 60 aircraft shot down one every 3 1/2 miles one per minute
In only 1 A/C did the whole crew survive
One crew in three were all killed
After the long leg bombers turned south for Nuremburg. Owing to strong wind, lots were too far [missing word] and east. 75 miles 20 mins flying.
PFF found that Nuremburg was covered by dense cloud 2 miles deep. Had to use sky markers
[Page break]
German single engine fighters all sent north to Berlin.
The bombers turn to the south wasn’t predicted
Chris Panton, brother of Panton Bros East Kirkby was shot down and killed on southern leg
PFF target indicators were widely scattered
Within 7 mins of bombers turning south, all German night fighters were told of new course
18 more bombers were lost on short south leg
In one Lanc Trevor Roper was killed Gibsons R/G
After target marking A/C should be bombing 47 A/C per min. or 160 tons per min
But they were late being too far north at turning point.
2 groups of markers could be seen several miles apart
Backers up dropped their sky markers near Lauf too far east. There was no master bomber to tell main force
[Page break]
NUREMBURG
It was usual practice for some PFF crews to scatter bombs over target area to keep the defences under cover whilst the aiming point was located and marked accurately.
Sky markers dropped over Lauf drew most of the bombing
One Path finder had a clear view of industrial town. Thought it must be Nuremburg and dropped large green TI on it
The town was Schweinfurt.
All the ball bearing factories were hit with incendiaries but no HE bombs.
Of all the A/C shot down on the outward flight only one full crew survived
German fire fighters working in -15 degrees- ce [missing end of word]
Village of Schonberg was destroyed by incendiaries 11 miles from aiming point
After leaving Nuremburg Some pilots flew into cloud after losing height still being blown north
[Page break]
[Underlined] 30TH MARCH 1944 [/underlined]
[Underlined] OPS NUREMBERG SAME SIZE AS BRISTOL [/underlined]
Harris
Severe icing in northern Europe, raid had to be more south
Harris chose Nuremburg.
Beginning of moon period
Early forecast cloud cover on way to target but clear over target
Straight leg 200 miles over Germany
Bennett PFF was against this
Halifax groups were in favour save fuel
Bombers in 5 waves 17 mins over target.
795 aircraft 572 Lancs 214 Halifax’s 9 Mosquito
In 7 months up to this date bomber command had lost 1047 A/C
6 days before 73/AC lost on Berlin
Halifax’s would carry only incendiaries one third of Lancasters weight.
162 aircraft involved in diversion raids (Baltic)
[Page break]
[Underlined] NUREMBERG [/underlined]
Some U.S. Mustangs and Lightnings were flying as night fighters RAF crews not told
20 Stirlings
10 Albemarles
8 Wellingtons
6 Fortress’s
110 Mosquitoes
I all 6,493 airmen over Germany that night.
In 103 Sqdn no one had completed a tour for 7 months
Photo rec’I’ aircraft flew over area in late afternoon and reported clear skys and no cloud cover.
But Harris did not cancel the raid
The German controllers ignored the mining diversion towards Baltic
German radar picked up signals from our H2S headsets soon after leaving our bases
By midnight, 200 German night fighters were making their way to orbit beacons “Ida” and “Otto” In the path of the bombers
Bombers were leaving contrails in bright moon
[Page break]
Because of the failure to find and mark Nuremberg Harris gave Cochrane (5 Group) the all clear to mark targets from low level. Using 617 Sqdn and Mosquitoes W/Co Cheshire obtained his V.C. for all his low level marking
Cheshire marked an A/C factory from 1,000ft over Toulouse and 5 Group destroyed it.
This was the last time the bombers all went in one stream to a single target.
[Page break]
[Underlined] REG’S TOTAL RAF TRAINING [/underlined]
Oct/41 Blackpool Basic RAF training Morse Code etc
Jan/42 Yatesbury. Wireless study. Morse procedure
May/42 “North Coates”. Wireless ops duties costal command
Oct/42 Radio Maintenance “South Kensington” London
Jan/43 Radio training “Madely” Proctors & Dominies
Apr/43 Air gunners course Stormy Down Whitleys
May 43 “AFU” Wigtown Scotland Ansons & Bothas
June 43 14 OTU Cottesmore Saltby & Market Harborough
Sept 43 H.C.U. Wigsley Halifax & Lancaster
Oct 43 50 Sqdn Lancasters 10 Berlin ops and Nuremburg Pilot Sir Michael Beetham
May 44 RAF Silverston 14 OTU.
June 44 RAF Turweston 14 OTU
June 45 Voluntarily taken off flying duties
July 45 Trained as receipts & issues stores officer at RAF Kirkham
Dec 45 Flown to Rangoon 56 FRU Forward Repair Unit 39 Flying hours reclaiming RAF equipment
July 46 Return home by boat. Demob RAF Kirkham 30 days not leaving the boat
In Burma. Reclaiming RAF equipment left arround after the Japanese were defeated
Based in Rangoon
Bringing it on charge or turning it to scrap
[Page break]
[Symbol] Lost on ops whilst F/O Beetham was at 50 Sqdn.
[Symbol] Missing POW’s.
[Underlined] No.50 Squadron Battle Order – 22nd November, 1943 [/underlined] BERLIN
[Underlined] A/C Pilot F/Eng. Nav. A/B. WO/AG. MU/G.
“A” P/O Toovey Sgt. Smith F/O. Pagett Sgt. Bedingham Sgt. Olsson Sgt. Kelbrick
“B” F/Lt. Bolton Sgt. Brown P/O. Watson F/Sgt. Forrester Sgt. McCall Sgt. Moody
“C” P/O. Heckendorf Sgt. Henderson P/O. Dale Sgt. Kewlay Sgt. Hope Sgt. Hall
“D” F/O. Beetham Sgt. Moore P/O. Swinyard Sgt. Bartlett Sgt. Payne Sgt. Higgins
“E” F/Sgt. Leader Sgt. Rosenburg F/O Candy P/O. Stevens F/Sgt. Lewis Sgt. Tupman
“F” P/O. Litherland Sgt. Green F/O. Chilcott Sgt. Hartley Sgt. Harris F/O Crawford
“G” F/O. Wilson Sgt. Felton P/O. Billam F/O. Newman Sgt. Gunn F/Sgt Harring
“H” Sgt. Lloyd Sgt. Avenell Sgt. Richardson SGt. Dewhirst F/Sgt. Hewson Sgt. McCarthy
“J” F/Sgt Erritt Sgt. Jones F/Sgt. Delaynn Sgt. Gleeson F/Sgt. Taylor F/Sgt. William
“K” F/Sgt. Thompson Sgt. Laws F/Sgt. Chapman Sgt. Conlon Sgt. Corbett Sgt. Spiers
Front Gunner – F/Sgt. Bolton
“L” F/Lt. Burtt Sgt. Taylor F/o. Presland F/O. Daynes F/O. Betty Sgt. Parkman
“M” F/O. Keith Sgt. Mitchell F/O. Guthrie Sgt. Bendix Sgt. Morrey Sgt. Brown
“N” F/Sgt Cole Sgt. Cammish F/Sgt. Burton Sgt. Wasterman F/Sgt. Stanwix Sgt. Sockett
“O” P/O Dobbyn Sgt. Cave F/Sgt. Palmer Sgt. Jackson Sgt. Ridyard Sgt. Duncom
“P” P/O. Lundy Sgt. Stevens F/Sgt. Jordan P/O Bignell Sgt. Green Sgt. Rundle
“R” W/O. Saxton Sgt. Fryer F/Sgt. Jowett F/Sgt Rees Sgt. Watson F/Sgt. Zunti
2nd Navigator F/Sgt Crerar
“S” P/O. Adams Sgt. Midgeley Sgt. Rawcliffe Sgt. Ward F/Sgt. Crawford Sgt. Hastie
“T” F/O Herbert Sgt. Russell Sgt. Rae F/O. Bacon Sgt. Poole P/O. Hughes
“X” P/O. Weatherstone Sgt. Gregory F/Sgt. Thompson Sgt. Lane Sgt. Spruce Sgt. Linehan
O.C. Night Flying S/Ldr. W.F. Parks, DFC.
Duty Engineer Sgt. Brown
R.McFarlane
Wing Commander, Commanding,
[Underlined] 50 Squadron, Skellingthorpe [/underlined]
[Page break]
[Photograph]
[Page break]
[RAF Challenge Chart]
[Page break]
Early DI’s change LT. accumulators Sign Form 700
Airtest check equip whilst flying
Attend W/Ops briefing D/F stations & freq’s etc. codes
Attend main briefing.
Collect. Colour of day charts
Main bomber codes
Beacon freq’s
M/F D/F groups to use
Broadcast times
Spare helmet
W/T challenge chart
Most of these are on rice paper and can be eaten before landing
Operate ground flight switch check voltage main acc’s
Switch on A1134? Amplifier for inter com.
Check radio whilst engines being run up.
Tidy up bundles of window on floor
Oxygen mask on before take off
Once airborne pencil in ranges on vis Monica screen
IFF switched on
Listen out for half hourly broadcast from base
Leaving coast wind out trailing aerial
Switch off IFF.
Keep continuous watch on Monica screen
Listen out on given wave band for German speech and tune transmitter to jamb the speech
Wind in trailing aerial when crossing enemy coast
Pass bundles of window down to F/Lt engineer
Transmit wind speed and height back to base. Details from nav
Keeping watch on Monica screen whilst listening for German speech on given wave length
Obtain bearing from beacon for nav. using loop aerial
On clear sky nights, obtain shots of given stars as asked for by navigator
On run up to target get in astro dome and look for A/C above you on bombing run
Receive any messages from base, decode them and pass to Pilot or nav
Send more winds back to base
Shout “contact” each time a blip comes on Monica screen
Keep searching for German R/T speech
Let trailing aerial out after leaving enemy coast.
Switch on IFF when near English coast
Place colours of day cartridges in very pistol
Wind in trailing aerial (crossing English coast)
If diversion message is rec’d before reaching English coast. Contact the diversion airfield and obtain QDM. Coarse to steer to get you to the airfield
[Page break]
[Photograph]
[Page break]
Alfred East Gallery Aircraft Paintings.
Grafton Underwood Oil Painting . Raffle for funds re Americans returning
Later Exhib Grafton Village Hall
Village scenes & aircraft.
Lady bought two church paintings
Vicars wife spitfire painting
Forest Green village bridge painting
Thank you letter.
Comission Lysander dessert painting
Kept. It.
Aircraft Paintings for guest speakers Air Gunners Ass
Chairman got praise
Lancaster Sqdn painting Lincoln £1,600 Memorial
Comission B24 Liberator painting Harrington Memorial unveiling
[Missing word] B17 over Grafton Underwood Dr Wildgoose
[Missing word] of friends deceased wife
Rothwell family mother father & wife all deceased
[Missing word] Ship painting for Malta.
[Page break]
Exhibiting Paintings in Rothwell Antique Shop.
2 Exhibitions in Rothwell library
Lancaster painting bought by friend donated to Bishop Stopford School.
Trevor Hopkins and talk to children
Photograph’s taken of paintings & made into cards
Started painting local scenes in water colours to produce greetings cards
Now visit all villages in this area taking photographs to use in producing more cards.
County library services use my Manor House painting to produce 4,000 cards.
Still have to go back to Lanc painting in oils
In 1999 exhibited 16 paintings All sold
[Page break]
[Underlined] PAINTING [/underlined]
Started 1970
Picture framing out of hand
Framing for art exhibitions & weddings
Nude lady painting in shed
Some of them not worth framing.
To Doctor [inserted] Walker [/inserted] with chest pains, pack up framing first do some for us
Calendars from drug firms.
Clear up back log framing
Try painting for change
Started copying calendars – water colours sold first one to neighbour
College told me change to oils
Did my first aircraft painting sketching model oils
Later photos of models at required angles
Started taking photo’s of local scenes to copy
Exhibited in Kettering P.O & Lloyds Bank
Commissioned paint bank for manager
Changed it to holiday painting
[Page break]
[Underlined] BROUGHTON ART EXHIBITION JUNE 2000 [/underlined]
Paintings hung 3 sold
1 painting took 2nd place in favourite painting vote.
Oct and November Exhibitions in-:
Alfred East Gallery Kettering
Kettering Library
Rothwell Holy Trinity
31 paintings sold during year 2000
Jan 2001, completed painting of Rothwell Church school building for use on letter heading note paper
Selection of greeting’s cards including A/C cards
Total over 100
Donate paintings-: Westside Community Group
Rowell Fair Soc
Rothwell Church
Painting of Rothwell Sunday School Bdls’
Broughton Flower Festival Poster
[Page break]
Intelligence Exams. Dover Hall? Northampton. RAF Cardington over night.
Fitness Exams [Underlined] DETAILS OF W/OP TRAINING [/underlined]
MAY
25.5.41 RAF Reserve
OCT
9-10-41 8 Recruit Centre Padgate.
OCT
16.10.41 10 Signals School [underlined] Blackpool [/underlined]
FEB
5.2.42 2 Signals School [underlined] Yatesbury [/underlined]
MAY
7.5.42 W/OP [underlined] North Coates [/underlined] Coastal Comm
SEP
16.9.42 7 Signals School [underlined] South Kensington [/underlined]
JAN
6.1.43 4 Signals School [underlined] Madeley [/underlined]
APR
6.4.43 7 A.G.S. Stormy Down
APR
27.4.43 1 A.F.U. Wigtown
JUNE
1.6.43 14 OTU Cottesmore, Saltby Market Harborough
SEPT
8.9.43 1654 Conversion Unit Wigsley. NOTS
OCT
22.10.43 50 Sqdn Skellingthorpe Lincs.
10.6.44 14 OTU Silverstone
1.8.44? 14 O.T.U. Turweston
[Page break]
RAF SERVICE OVERSEAS 1945/46.
[Underlined] OCT 1943 [/underlined]
Met my future 1st wife whilst serving in RAF Lincoln
She was an ATS girl also based in Lincoln
[Missing word] [Underlined] 1944 [/underlined]
After completing my operational flying 50 Sqdn Skellingthorpe posted to 17 OTU Silverstone as an instructor where I stayed until VE. Day May 1945.
By that time I was engaged to my ATS girlfriend but agreed not to get married whilst still flying
Large surplus of aircrew after VE Day.
Given choice to give up flying and take ground job.
After training were promised posting near home
1st 2nd and 3rd choice Desborough Market Harbor’o Silverstone
After courting 2 years decided to get married
Posted to RAF Kirkham 8 week course Receipts & Issues Officer
Fixed date of wedding 5th Oct 45
After finish of course posted to Blackpool P.D.C.
Then to North Pier to be told of our postings
My posting 56 FRU S.E.A.C.
Told to go to Karachi to find where 56 FRU was.
Home on leave for wedding & back to Blackpool
Trainload of us to Northweald Essex to fly over seas
[Page break]
NORTHWEALD LATE OCT. 1945
Parade 8am each morning hundreds on parade
Call for 50 personel 2 Liberators departing
Kept hanging back wifes parents living nearby.
5 weeks later not many of us left, all transported to [underlined] RAF Tempsford [/underlined] spy’s airfield [underlined] Bedfordshire [/underlined]
Now very cold snow on ground [underlined] no heating. [/underlined]
[Underlined] 11TH DEC [/underlined] 26 off us taken with kit, to waiting Lib
Given ‘K’ rations [underlined] no drinks no seats [/underlined]
1300 hrs took off for North Africa
Landed North Africa [underlined] Castel Benito Tripoli [/underlined] Mussolini’s airfield 7hrs 5mins
Canteen for cup tea Barrel of oranges
Slept in tent [underlined] cold [/underlined] Out door wash etc
Servicemen going home have preferance of A/C
Dock & harbour Tripoli full of sunken ships
Airfield littered with Axis A/C
[Page break]
[Underlined] 13TH DEC [/underlined] 4pm took off for [underlined] Cairo [/underlined] Landed [underlined] Almaza 6hrs 40mins [/underlined]
Taken to Helioplis Palace Hotel
Civil aviation hotel Very posh.
Cool bath in morning (Lady cleaner)
Trip to Pyramids in afternoon
Collect Roman coin [underlined] Diaclesus 300BC [/underlined]
Trouble with young Egyptian shoe shines
[Underlined] 15TH DEC 0630hrs [/underlined] Took off [underlined] Persia, [/underlined] Landed [underlined] Shaibah 5hrs [/underlined]
Very hot sunstroke centre near A/C
[Underlined] 15TH DEC 1500hrs [/underlined] Took off for India landed at [underlined] Mauripur Karachi 7hrs 20mins [/underlined] 10.20pm.
Given bunk beds in large hangar 3 high.
Spent 13 days at Mauripur including Christmas
Changed into Khaki clothing
Plenty of fruit and bananas and drink
Christmas day in shorts & hat only
Swimming in Arabian Gulf with dolphins
Hot sands Camel rides messy smells
[Page break]
[Underlined] 28 DEC 45 6 AM [/underlined]
Boarded Dakota to [underlined] Palam Delhi 4hrs 40mins [/underlined]
[Underlined] View of Everest during flight [/underlined]
28th DEC [underlined] 12.35PM Palam to Chakula 4hrs 15mins [/underlined]
[Underlined] 100 miles? From Calcutta [/underlined]
At Chakula for 2 or three days
Stayed on camp site all the time
Lived in bamboo huts on stilts [underlined] 4ft [/underlined]
Wild country all arround, jackals howling at nights
Primitive toilets on raised stairways
All personel were armed mostly Sten guns
All had firing practice on firing range
1ST JAN 46
We all boarded Indian train, no window panes no corridors
As Warrant Officer was I/C the train
Airmen firing from train at wildlife during journey
[Page break]
Thought I was in for rocket when we pulled into Calcutta station
Spent next few days in transit camp near Calcutta
Not allowed to leave camp over local Indians pushing for their independance
Whilst there played football against African black, they wiled the floor with us, playing with bare feet
Ice cream under shade of tree monkey’s dropping
Eating ice cream
5TH JAN 46.
[Underlined] TRANSPORTED TO DUM DUM AIRPORT CALCUTTA [/underlined]
12.30pm Boarded Dakota to Mingladon Airfield near Rangoon 4.30hrs
Total flying hours Tempsford England to [underlined] Mingladon Rangoon 39hrs 30mins [/underlined]
We were all taken by lorry transport (now 12 off us)
To Rangoon where we found 56 F.R.U.
F.R.U. = Forward Repair Unit.
[Page break]
We were taken to our separate mess’s
After a meal in the Sgts mess we were taken to a neaby bombed building nearby
Given timber & tools to make beds
Mosquito nets
[Underlined] No windows electrics water [/underlined]
After breakfast taken to 56 FRU stores
[Underlined] 56 FORWARD REPAIR UNIT. [/underlined]
Capable of repairing anything used in R.A.F.
Aircraft Vehicles Radio’s Parachutes etc
Stores in large [inserted] ex [/inserted] printing works
[Underlined] Job Detail As a W/O I was given the jobs [/underlined]
As, I/C our Sgts billet
Anti malaria officer
Fire officer
Petrol receipts & issues officer
As well as working in stores & Orderly Officer
[Page break]
[Underlined] Japanese POW’s working for us. Petrol drums [/underlined]
[Underlined] Very hot & sticky [/underlined] Atmosphere 110°
Green mould on shoes
[Underlined] Khaki shorts [/underlined] changed 3 times a day.
[Underlined] Dark [/underlined] soon after 5pm, thousands large bats
[Underlined] Fire fly’s [/underlined] lighting up tress
[Underlined] Canoe building [/underlined]
[Underlined] Victoria Lakes Sunday’s Me organising [/underlined]
[Underlined] Transport Food Bookings Snakes [/underlined] in lake
[Underlined] Hot sands [/underlined]
[Underlined] Petrol for Unit dance [/underlined]
[Underlined] Drains and sewers in Rangoon [/underlined] flooding in monsoon
Units closing down disposing of their equipment.
[Underlined] Orderly Officer Parachutes and Army Depot fire [/underlined]
[Underlined] Duty Free labels [/underlined] F/Lt. Adjutant
[Underlined] Rangoon toilets [/underlined] Squash dog on road
Water Festival
[Page break]
[Underlined] Monsoon rain [/underlined] Deluge on flat roof
Open sewers full
W/shops flooded testing canoes
We each bought a black steel trunk to store all our presents in to take home called a [underlined] deep sea trunk [/underlined]
[Underlined] One thing remains in my memory [/underlined]
Anglo Burmese ladies in office
11am Thursday’s shooting Jap war criminals
Listening to rifle shots ladies smiling.
[Underlined] EARLY JUNE 1946 [/underlined]
My demob group No 42 has come up
Transferred to a disposal centre on the outskirts of Rangoon
Sleeping 2 persons small tent
Were instructed to keep our arms in our beds, [underlined] “Dakoits” [/underlined] Burmese bandits from surrounding countryside
After a few days we were taken out by boat where our ship to take us home was moored [Underlined] The “Orduna” [/underlined]
[Page break]
REG PAYNE
WIRELESS OPERATOR
SGT RON BOYDON W/OP 207 SQDN
21/22 JAN 1944 OPS MAGDEBURG
ALL CREW BURIED IN BERLIN
1939-45 CEMETARY
“Bomber Harris and the Strategic Bombing Offensive 1939-1945
By the time war in Europe had ended more than 8,000 bombers had been lost during operational sorties, and by night alone nearly 14,000 were damaged, of which some 1,200 were totally wrecked. In terms of human casualties no fewer than 46,268 had lost their lives during or as a result of operations, and a further 4,200 had been wounded. In addition on non-operational flights 8,090 had been killed or wounded. Put another way, out of every 100 aircrew who joined an Operational Training Unit, on average 51 would be killed on operations, 9 would be killed flying in England, 3 would be seriously injured in crashes, 12 would become POW’s of whom some would be injured, 1 would be shot down but evade capture, and 24 would survive unharmed. No other branch of the fighting services faced quite these awesome odds.
[Page break]
1943/44
REG PAYNE
1435510 WIRELESS OPERATOR
50 SQUADRON
SKELLINGTHORPE
LINCOLN
PILOT SIR MICHAEL BEETHAM
NAV FRANK SWINYARD
BOMB AIMER LES BARTLETT
WIRELESS OPERATOR REG PAYNE
FLIGHT ENG. DON MOORE
MID UPPER GUNNER JOCK HIGGINS
REAR GUNNER FRED BALL
[Page break]
[Table of Aircraft & Aircrew Losses During Reg’s 30 Operations]
Total number of A/C lost on these operations 562.
Total number of aircrew killed 4,300. 1206 POW’s
Average number of A/C on each operation 425.
Of the 4319 men in the A/C shot down attacking Berlin only 992 survived 22.9 per cent.
[Page break]
[Underlined] BOAT TRIP HOME FROM BURMA RANGOON [/underlined]
As a W/O was given a berth in centre of ship
The ship terribly overcrowded
The only drinks water and tea
No canteen or such No books or library
30 day journey
Tried sleeping below deck first night
Slept on deck (crowded) after that
Quizz on how many miles the ship did each day
Went thro monsoon period
Attacked by swarm of locus
Hung dirty washing out of port hole
Noticed Army personel had ringworms
Nothing to do all day
Biggest event watching one chap having his boils squeezed each morning.
Called in at Ceylon, Alexandra Suez Gibralta
No one allowed off ship.
Went below to sleep just before we reached England
Docked in Liverpool mid July.
[Page break]
[Underlined] DEMOBBED AT RAF KIRKHAM 17TH JULY 1946 [/underlined]
W/O’s were told to leave their kit bags on deck and they will be taken to demob centre
All khaki clothing burned on parade ground
Our deep sea trunks were brought to us.
My kit bag had not turned up.
Had to pay 19/6d for missing overcoat (in kit bag)
Revolver & 40 rounds also in kitbag.
Told some of you W/O’s would loose your bloody head if it was’nt fixed on.
That’s all that was said
With that trundled my deep sea trunk to the railway station and home
[Page break]
[Underlined] SGT RON BOYDON [/underlined]
WIRELESS OPERATOR /AIR GUNNER 207 SQDN
LOST WITH ALL HIS CREW
WHILST BOMBING MAGDEBURG
21/22ND JAN 1944
YOU ARE NOT FORGOTTEN RON
REG PAYNE AND TUBBY MELHUISH
YOUR TWO EX RAF CHUMS.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Aviation Memory
Description
An account of the resource
A detailed account of Reg Payne's service in the RAF. He starts with a list of 18 RAF bases where he served in his 5 years of service. He was 16 when war was declared but volunteered for the RAF at 17. After tests he was selected for training as a wireless operator ending up at Blackpool. Morse had to be 10 words a minute or retraining as a gunner. Moved to RAF Yatesbury and speed increased to 18 words per minutes. Then RAF Stormy Down for air gunnery followed by #1 AFU Wigtown for training in flight.
By June 1943 Reg is at RAF Cottesmore, 14 Operational Training Unit.
He details his daily tasks before operations.
Next he is moved to RAF Wigsley Heavy Conversion Unit for conversion to Halifaxes then Lancasters then ended up at RAF Skellingthorpe.
The social life at Skellingthorpe is popular and he met his first wife.
November 1943 his brother is missing over Dusseldorf.
Each operation he was involved in is described in detail.
Later in his memoir he details where and when he trained.
There is a list of prisoners of war from his squadron and a colour photograph of Reg and two colleagues at the tail of Lancaster 'Just Jane'.
There is a list of Reg's paintings.
He details his post war service via Libya, Cairo, Iran, India and Karachi, ending up at 56 Forward Repair Unit in Rangoon.
In June 1946 he returned to the UK by ship.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Reg Payne
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
120 handwritten sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BPayneRPayneRv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
British Army
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Burma
France
Germany
Great Britain
Burma--Rangoon
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
France--Paris
France--Toulouse
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Augsburg
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Schweinfurt
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Braunschweig
France--Marseille
Poland--Szczecin
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Germany--Wolfenbüttel
Poland
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1944-03-30
1944-03-31
1944-04-05
1944-04-06
1944-04-18
1944-04-19
1945
1946
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
102 Squadron
14 OTU
17 OTU
49 Squadron
5 Group
50 Squadron
619 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Albemarle
Anson
arts and crafts
bale out
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bomb aimer
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
bombing of the Juvisy, Noisy-le-Sec and Le Bourget railways (18/19 April 1944)
bombing of Toulouse (5/6 April 1944)
Botha
Caterpillar Club
crewing up
Dominie
FIDO
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
incendiary device
Ju 88
Lancaster
Master Bomber
military living conditions
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Mosquito
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
prisoner of war
Proctor
RAF Cottesmore
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Kirkham
RAF Madley
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Melbourne
RAF North Coates
RAF North Weald
RAF Padgate
RAF Pocklington
RAF Saltby
RAF Silverstone
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Eval
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Tempsford
RAF Turweston
RAF Waddington
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wigtown
RAF Wittering
RAF Yatesbury
Stirling
superstition
training
Wellington
Whitley
Window
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/10635/BPayneRPayneRv2.1.pdf
a90530e769feeb87faa075c28bdb865c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Reg
R Payne
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, R
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. Two oral history interviews with Reg Payne (1923 - 2022, 1435510 Royal Air Force), his memoirs and photographs. Reg Payne completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. His pilot on operations was Michael Beetham. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />
<p>This collection also contains items concerning Fred Ball. Additional information on Fred Ball is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/100970/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.<a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/ball-fc/"></a></p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-03
2017-08-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BEFORE I WAS IN THE RAF
[underlined] Wartime Memories [/underlined]. Reg Payne
[deleted] 2 [/deleted] 2
I didn’t think of being killed whilst flying until I visited one or two crash sites in the Kettering area, some of them were German aircraft and I knew members of the crew had been killed when the A/C crashed.
I visited the crash site of a Blenheim Bomber which crashed in some sand pits, I rescued parts of flying clothing in the hedge row, and found there were still parts of human flesh mixed with the lambs wool.
Another aircraft crashed near a pond and the crew were all killed, bits of the Blenheim Bomber were still on the ground. A bunch of boys with caterpilts [sic] were shooting at something floating in the pond. As it came nearer to me I saw that it was, a human eye ball.
All this didn’t stop me from Joining the RAF to fly when I reached the age of eighteen yrs.
After two yrs of training as a W/OP Airgunner for two yrs I finally arrived at RAF Skellingthorpe 50 Sqdn on the outskirts of Lincoln. My brother two yrs older was also flying in the RAF, near by at RAF Fiskerton, also a W/OP, he had already flown a number of operations.
I was already a member of a Lancaster crew, and my pilot had to fly on an operation with another, before he could take his own crew on his own. After the operation was over we were glad that he had returned OK, and said that he didnt [sic] think the operation was as bad as he expected.
The next day I had a phone call from my mother to say that my brother was missing from the same operation that my pilot was taken on. She asked me if I could come home.
I visited our Squadron C.O. and asked if I could visit my mother, he refused to let me go saying that my parents would perswade [sic] me to stop flying if I did. I told him that I promised him that
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I would come back and continue flying. My Mother and Father both told me to be very careful when I was flying so the C.O. had nothing else to say to me. Luckily later we found that the Lancaster that my brother was in exploded whilst flying and two of the crew, by brother one of them, were blown thro [sic] the perspex roof, although in a German hospital they were not killed.
After a few weeks my mother told me that Ron Boydon the fellow that I had done all my training with was reported missing from operations, followed by Arthur Johnson who I trained with. She told me that Mrs Boydon has been seen looking in peoples gate ways at night looking for her son Ron.
We didnt [sic] think much of our hut at Skellingthorpe with no washing arrangements, to do this we had to walk to the Sgts Mess some distance away.
On our first evening there Fred our Rear Gunner and myself cycled to Lincoln as we were told it was only a short bike ride.
We found a small pub called the “UNITY”,? it was quiet inside not many people in the room that we were in, just tow ATS Girls sipping their two drinks together across the other side of the room.
It was not until they got up to go that we spoke to them, they had to be in their quarters by ten o’clock, in a large house near the cathedral. We were ready to go ourselves and asked if we could walk back with them. They seemed a couple of nice girls and we arranged to meet them at an earlyer [sic] time the next night
Luckily we were not wanted for any evening duties and we were able to get away early and spend time with the two ATS girls until it was time for them to be in their billets by ten oclock [sic]
We spent time with the two ATS girls for a few weeks and both Fred and I found a close relationship with them, Fred along with Joan & myself with Ena, we all became very friendly, and met each other as early and many times as we could get away.
Returning to the large room of ours in our hut, we were
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surprised one evening when entering our large room that there was three extra beds in there, with lots of kit bags and luggage scattered about the room. We had three Canadian aircrew members added to our room who had just joined our 50 Sqdn.
They seemed to get lots of parcels from Canada, and told us we could help ourselves to any chocolates or fruit that we could see in the room they could not cope with it all.
However the Station Warrent [sic] Officer came in one early evening and looked around the room. He said the place looked like a rubbish tip and he would come to look at it each evening and we were not to go out until he looked to see how tidy the room was. At times he was late comming [sic] so it became late each evening for Fred and I to meet Joan & Ena, especially as they had to be back in their billets prompt at 10 Pm.
However one evening the Lancaster that the three Canadians were flying in failed to return and all their clothing and goods were taken out of the room, leaving our room neat and tidy again as it was before the Canadians moved in.
Now that our room was now so clean and tidy, the Station Warrent [sic] Officer said that he would no longer come to visit us each evening as he could see that the room would no longer be full of food parcels etc.
I never did know if the three Canadians lost their lives, but if they did all I could think was that it cost the lives of three men to allow Fred and I to go out early evening to meet our girl friends when we were not flying early evening ourselves.
Having the three Canadians possibly killed made it possible for Fred and myself to go out early and meet our ATS girl friends when we were not on duty ourselves.
Many of [deleted] Fred [/deleted] Ena’s ATS friends had lost their air crew boy friends, and never knew if he had lost his life or not
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Ena’s ATS friend Joan spent all her spare time with Fred Ball our Rear Gunner. Fred was killed when our aircraft was in flames and he didnt [sic] Bale Out.
Lots of Ena’s ATS friends had lost RAF Boy friends flying on operations and tried not to get attatched [sic] to them anymore.
Ena’s Mother came to Lincoln and work in the NAAFI as she was called up to do war work. She chose Lincoln to be near to her daughter Ena.
She had lodgings with a nice lady Mrs Fatchet in Winn St Lincoln. Next door to her was a young lady, that had a small baby, she had it in her arms as we watched the Lancasters flying off on another operation.
She told me that the babies [sic] father was an aircrew member that had been missing from operations for some time, and no one had had any news of him. I always felt very sorry for her as she watched the Lancasters taking off from the Lincolnshire Airfields.
When I knew we were on operations that night I would ring Ena around lunch time, and say to her, I wont [sic] be able to meet you tonight, but all being well will see you tomorrow.
She knew that we were on operations that night.
With my brother Art now a POW in Germany, only two of his crew surviving, my mother was worried what would happen to me. She already knew that our Lancaster was on fire over the Humber Estory [sic]and four members of the crew didnt [sic] have time to bale out and were killed. I went thro [sic] the clouds pulling one of the carrying handles and not the parachute release handle, luckily I pulled the correct one and my parachute opened and I made a safe landing.
We were asked to identify the four bodies in the crashed aircraft
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by one of the senior RAF officers, but not one of us wanted to identify the crushed up bodies in the burned Lancaster. We did’nt [sic] want to go near the aircraft.
On one of our ten operations to Berlin, a German night fighter attacked us and his bullets made a large hole in our Port wing. I thought it was smoke coming out of the large hole in the wing, but our flight Eng. said it was petrol coming from one of the large tanks in the wings.
Arriving back as far as Northamptonshire we were nearly out of Petrol and our Pilot decided to make a landing on the emergency airfield at RAF Wittering to save the extra miles to Lincoln. We circled the airfield, and were waiting for the runway landing lights to come on, expecting any time for the engines to shut down as the petrol had all been used. At last the landing lights came on and we were able to land with all the petrol now used up.
As we entered the Wittering office buildings, we heard the dance band close down and found that no one had been on duty, to turn on the Aircraft landing lights when Aircraft were in trouble and needed to land.
Returning from another of our operations to Berlin we were told to land at RAF Pocklington in Yorkshire, as there was a dense fog in the Lincoln area. We tried a few times to find the runway at Pocklington, but then were told to proceed to RAF Melborne which we found was also foggy.
After flying quite low for some time Michael found it in the fog and managed to land safely.
A large van driven by a WAAF picked us safely up and drove us to their crew rooms. In the fan she had a radio that could hear all of our aircraft calling and saying that they must land as they had little or no fuel left.
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One of our squadron aircraft ran out of fuel and crashed into a nearby farm house, the farmer and his wife were both killed, and only the rear gunner in the Lancaster survived. From then on all the Lancasters on the circuit trying to land were told to Head their aircraft out to sea and Bale Out, which they had to do.
The fog stayed with us for three days up in yorkshire [sic], and we could’nt [sic] return back to Lincoln. We had no washing or shaving items for three days or money to buy anything with, not even our toothe [sic] brush’s [sic] or razors to shave with, we had to stay with our lancasters until the weather improved and we could fly them back to Skellingthorpe.
We had a scare one morning, we had just landed after completing another of our operations, and taxied the Lancaster back to our usual dispersal. Michael Beetham then said to us all, OK everybody “All Switch’s [sic] off.” Before I could check all my radio and inter Comm switch’s [sic], there was a loud scraping noise like a van dragging along the side of the aircraft, followed by a heavy thud.
We all scrambled out of the aircraft and expected to see a small lorry or van firmly stuck to the side of the aircraft, but there was nothing any where near us. The Bomb Aimer went back to the Aircraft and opened the little inspection door panel that allowed him to look down into the Lancasters Bomb bay. He was shocked at what he saw.
A thousand pound bomb had been still in the bomb bay, it had not dropped with the others over the target. Its [sic] a good thing that it didnt [sic] hit its nose cap on the way down the bomb bay or we would all have been blown to pieces.
I’ve often wonderd [sic] how the bomb disposal crews got to remove the bomb without it blowing up the Lancaster.
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We landed early morning after a long trip to Berlin again and our ground crew asked how the aircraft had flown, we all said there were no problems with the aircraft and we all left in a hurry to get back to the Sgts Mess and get our breakfast before getting into bed and have our sleep.
After we were all awake again around tea time we were told that they wanted to show us something about our aircraft. Arriving at the dispersal point of our aircraft “B” baker” the ground crews pointed to a large hole in the port wing where a large bomb had gone thro [sic] and left a large hole you could look thro. [sic] Not only did it go thro [sic] the wing it also went thro [sic] a large petrol tank
Luckily the petrol tank was empty by the time we got to the target. There were three tanks in each wing and this tank was empty when the bomb went thro [sic] it. Had it been thro [sic] the one next to it which was full of petrol we would never have got home and finished as POW’s etc.
On one Berlin Operation as we were getting close to Berlin, I heard the engines on the Lancaster open up and felt the aircraft starting to climb. Our Bomb Aimer Les Bartlett shouted to Jock Higgins our Mid Upper Gunner and said, “Not yet Jock, wait until I say now.” I moved over to our Astro-Dome near my compartment and looked above and in front of us, and I saw straight away a German JU88 Night Fighter which had not seen us.
We flew closely underneath it and Les shouted “OK Jock NOW” They both opened up together and I could see the red hot bullets crashing into the German Heinkel Night fighters. Our Bomb Aimer bullets were being sprayed along its wing area, but I noticed that Jock’s the Mid Upper Gunner, his red hot shower of bullets were going into the cabin area where all the crew members were close together. The JU88 continued to fly steadyly [sic] on for some time whilst the bullets continued to enter the cabin area where the crew were based. After a short time after
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the German night fighter tipped over on its side, with smoke now coming from its engines and cabin area, as it fell lower and lower it was lost from my view.
The forward members of our crew said, that smoke and fire came from it as it plunged down to the burning city below it, and was certainly shot down.
What upset me though, that our bomb Aimer was an officer, and he received a medal for his shooting, but Jock who was only a Sgt received not even a mention.
[underlined] Frank Swinyard Navigator. [/underlined]
Frank Swinyard was a Flying Officer, we sat very close together, and we go on together very well. Frank was our Navigator. Frank and I worked together. He would ask me what stars I could see from the ASTRODOME close by me, when I told him the ones in view, I would take his sextant and read out the degrees & minutes for him to use on his Astro Graph. Also I obtained quite a number of radio bearings for him from distant Radio stations, this helped him to plot his position.
When we were diverted to another Air Base on the way home he would not worry about getting the Lancaster there, he could ask me to get him a QDM to the base, [underlined] QDM COURSE TO STEAR [/underlined] after another on or two, I could take him there.
My worst flying experience was not a bombing operation, but an Air Gunners training flight which we had over the Humber Estory [sic] part of the North Sea of course
We had our own crew of seven, plus another pilot and his two gunners, making ten men altogether.
From Lincoln we had to fly over the Humber Estory [sic] where a spitfire would join us, and in radio contact would continue to attack us whilst our two gunners would train their guns on it as it dived on them. We would then call the Spitfire Pilot & tell him that the other pilot and his two gunners were changing over and we would call him to begin attacking us.
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Cameras were fitted to the guns so the film could be shown after the exercise to see if the Airgunner was using the correct deflection in the attacks etc.
We had our full crew of seven on board the aircraft, along with the other pilot and his two gunners.
On boarding the Lancaster I noticed our Flight Engineer was’nt [sic] taking his parachute with him, I remember saying to him, wheres [sic] your parachute Don, and he said, it’s only a training flight Im [sic] not bothered about that.
The time of the year was January but it was a sunny day although the sea looked very cold should we ever have to land up in it one day, and I wondered, should I be wearing my Mae West. Looking down from the aircraft all I could see now was cloud, so I didnt [sic] know how far away the coast was should you have to use your parachute etc.
The other pilot and his two gunners were moving into their positions in the aircraft, and I noticed that our two gunners had now joined us at the rear of the Lancaster where we could see the other Australian pilot and his two gunners do their part of the exercise.
At the word GO. the Lancaster was taken in a very steep dive, Ive [sic] never seen one dive so steeply, but as it pulled out of its steep dive one of it’s engines burst into flames.
The pilot operated his extinguisher for the engine and for a little time we thought all was well, but after the extinguisher had finished its work, the whole wing seemed to be on fire, and Michael gave the order for all of us to abandon the aircraft. There were only two escape doors in the Lancaster, and ten men who needed to use them.
The Australian Pilot & his two gunners in the front of the aircraft started to bale out of the nose escape exit, as our Mid upper gunner Jock Higgins baled out of the rear exit, but damaged his ribs as he hit the tail plane. I tried to leave by the back exit, but the
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gust of wind blew me back again. I think I was given a push with someones [sic] foot that got me out of the aircraft.
As I fell thro [sic] the air there was nothing but cloud below me, and I didnt [sic] know if I was over the sea or the land.
I did a silly thing I was tugging away at the carrying handle of the parachute pack and not the release metal handle so by the time I had pulled the correct parachute release handle I had already gone thro [sic] the cloud.
A large part of the wing had broken off and was coming down behind me, I’m glad that it drifted away from me and didnt [sic] cut thro [sic] my parachute.
As I got nearer the ground I could see the coast a short distance from me, and I was drifting towards it, then there was a large crashing noise, and smoke and flame as the Lancaster crashed a few miles in land near East Kirkby Airfield and I was still drifting that way myself.
I finally landed in a large field and before I could get in a standing position I saw an RAF van coming towards me with two airmen in it. At the same time some one on a parachute coming down a short distance away landed in a dense spinney, I could hear the branches on the trees breaking as he fell thro [sic] them, I found out later it was the other Australian Pilot.
Our Lancaster had crashed close to East Kirkby Airfield, where I was taken to, there were four men in the aircraft when it crashed and I was asked if I could identify the bodies. I was told they were all crushed, and I just didnt [sic] want to look at them
Fred Ball our Rear Gunner would no longer come with me when I would visit Ena in Lincoln he had every chance to bale out the aircraft early but he didnt [sic] have the pluck to do this Jock Higgins hurt his ribs as he baled out and hit the tail plane, he spent a short time in the base hospital and made a good recovery.
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Following this air crash I would go into Lincoln to see Ena on my own.
Also I was introduced to Ena’s mother who was in lodgings with Mrs Fatchet in Lincoln, whilst working in one of the large NAAFI forces canteens in Lincoln.
Luckily I had plenty of time off when not flying, and during the cold winter day’s [sic] I could ride on my bike and visit Mrs Fatchet at her home in Winn St.
She always made me welcome and found me something to eat, she had a fish & chip shop next door to her so I could always pop in there during the day.
Before going on an operation taking six or eight hours flying time, after no sleep during the day, we were given Wakey Wakey tablets which we only swallowed just before we were airborne, there was no chance of a sleep during the day before going on operations, you didnt [sic] even know where the target was until the main briefing just you were airborn. [sic]
I was the wireless Operator in the crew of Lancaster LL744 VNB 50 SQDN. each morning after breakfast, if I had not been flying the night before, after breakfast I had to visit the Accumulator Store and collect two small but heavy accumulators, on my bike I would ride to our Lancaster, and replace them with the two in the aircraft. I then had to [inserted] VISIT [/inserted] the flight office and collect the form 700 and say the batteries had been changed Sign my name etc. and return the two batteries that I had replaced to the accumulator store. This had to be done by me every day unless I had been on operations the night before.
The batteries had to be changed each day, even if the aircraft had not been flown.
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During one operation the two gunners said how cold they were, especially the Rear Gunner.
Michael Beetham air pilot told me to see what the problem was, I had to put a portable oxygen [inserted] BOT. [/inserted] round my neck before I went down, you wouldn’t last long without one.
I could see straight away what the trouble was, the back door was open & a strong freezing cold wind was coming in.
The flight Engineer came down to help me, but together we could not close the door. There must of [sic] been a wind of over one hundred miles per hour coming thro [sic] the open door and the temp would be around minus thirty degrees.
With the help of I think the Navigator we managed to tie the door up but not fully closed, and leave a sharp knife there to cut the rope should we need to bale out.
One other night the mid upper gunner said his turret had frost all over it and he could’nt [sic] see a thing, he asked me to bring him an axe, I gave him one and he smashed the perspex from the front of his turret so he could see, luckily he had electrical clothing on and could only have the turret facing backwards.
We have a long length of rope close to the back door in the Lancaster, should a crew member loose [sic] an arm or a leg and we are three or four hours from reaching home, we could tie a torch on the wounded crew member, tie a length of rope to his parachute release handle and when passing a large German town or city push the wounded airman out the back door. His parachute would open and he would be seen with the torch and parachute. Hoping he would be rushed to a German hospital to have his life saved.
We called it The dead mans rope.
As a Wireless Operator whilst I was flying on operations I was given a frequency band on my radio to search, and if I picked up a German mans [sic] voice giving out instructions
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I would tune my transmitter to this frequency, and press down my morse code key, this would transmit the sound of one of our Lancaster engines on that frequency and blot him out. A Microphone was placed against one of the engines for that reason.
To prevent to [sic] many aircraft over the target at the same time and hitting each other, we were divided into two or three waves, First, Second, or third wave, we had our own height to bomb the target and the time over the target, but after a long flight to get there we rarely arrived at our time over target, it was not unusually [sic] for an aircraft to get an incendiary bomb thro [sic] its wing whilst over the target, from an aircraft above.
Whilst over the target area a senior RAF officer would be circling the city area, he was the “Master Bomber” he would be shouting out details of which colour’d [sic] flare’s [sic] to aim at, reds or greens etc. His language at times didnt [sic] meet up to an RAF Officer.
On one operation we were told to land at St Eval Cornwall on our way home, but during our flight I received a message, which said cancel Landing instructions “Return to Base” Unfortuneately [sic] the Wing Commanders Wireless Operator failed to get this message and they landed at St Eval. The only crew to land there.
All the Sqdn Aircrew were at the airfield when the Wing Comm landed back at Skellingthorpe to Cheer him home.
At our next briefing for an operation the Wing Commander said, Wireless Operators, make sure you get all the messages broad casts not like some clot I could name that misses them. His wireless operator stood up and said. If thats [sic] what you think of me sir, you
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can get some other Wireless Operator to fly with you tonight, and then started walking towards the door. RAF police at the door moved to stop him leaving, but the Wing Commander said let him go.
I’m glad I was’nt [sic] the Wing Comm Wireless Operator.
The Wireless Operator had an unusual name which you could remember and looking at a long list of aircrew who lost their lives on fifty Sqdn I saw his name on the list.
After breakfast if I found I was in operations that night, I knew that our Sgts Mess Phone was disconnected and to Tell Ena that I would not be able meet her tonight I used to cycle to a nearby village and us the public Phone Box (she always knew the reason why.
On one day when operations were detailed, I found our crew were not on the list of crews taking part.
I needed a few items such as soap & toothepaste [sic] etc and cycled into Lincoln to purchase them.
I found Lincoln rather quiet whilst in the shopping area with no local aircraft flying at the time.
As it became dusk winter time, all the local airfields were preparing for aircraft take off,
Suddenly I heard a heavy Lancaster taking of [sic] from Waddington, taking off with an overload, then another one from our Skellingthorpe, also from Fiskerton & Bardney, all these Lancasters were flying with an overload of bombs and needed all the power their engines had to get them airborn. [sic]
This was the first time I had been in Lincoln City to hear all the aircraft circling round Lincoln with a heavy overload of bombs, they needed all the power their engines had, to get them airborne. The people of Lincoln didnt [sic] seem to take notice of it I suppose they were quite used to it.
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Ena & Joan had given Fred our Rear Gunner & I a brass Lincoln Imp which they said would bring us luck, and told us not to fly without them.
I kept mine on my flying jacket so I always had it with me when I flew. Fred often removed his from his flying jacket and wore it on his tunic when he went out at Evenings.
One evening we had attended briefing for an operation, and were on our way to our aircraft when Fred told us he didnt [sic] have his Lincoln Imp with him, On arriving at our aircraft we told a ground staff member and he said he would collect it from our billet, after we gave him the hut number, and the position of Freds [sic] bed etc. Freds [sic] Lincoln Imp was on his tunic hanging up over his bed. First bed on the left as you go in the main door.
Off went the man in his van and he returned later with Freds [sic] Lincoln Imp which he had removed from Freds [sic] tunic
We all felt better after this, and we hoped it would make Fred more careful to make sure he always wore his Lincoln Imp.
It was a month or two after this that we had to do an airgunnery exercise with some extra members of the crew, during the exercise the pilot put the Lancaster in a very steep dive, which caused one of the engines and the wing to burst into flames. The Lancaster was overloaded with ten crew members taking part. Four crew members were killed when the Lancaster crashed and sadly Fred was one of them.
My bed was next to Fred’s and I didnt [sic] have a very good nights sleep, I lay awake for some time, looking up at Freds [sic] tunic which hung close to my bed the early sun light shone over Freds [sic] bed area, his tunic was hanging up above it, and the sun was shining on a small brass item on the lapel. I could’nt [sic] believe it, it was his Lincoln Imp and he was’nt [sic] wearing it again.
[inserted] PS I still wear my Lincoln Imp. [/inserted]
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I think my first fear of our operational flying was the Lancaster taking off and getting airborne.
At the briefing for the operation we were usually told we would all be flying with a thousand pound overload.
With a normal all up weight of bombs in the Lancaster it took a long run along the runway before the aircraft became airborn, [sic] but when they had added another thousand pounds of bombs on the aircraft it became that bit more stressful.
As the Lancaster began its way along the runway, the Navigator would read the speed it was travelling at, it needed one hundred miles per hour before it could take off.
Some times when the pilot could see that the aircraft was not going to reach that speed at a certain position along the runway, and the gate was getting closer on the throttle control, he would say to the flight engineer, “THRO THE GATE”, and the throttles were pushed that little bit more before the aircraft started leaving the ground.
[underlined] The gate had to be moved to get [/underlined] the take off speed up to 100 miles per hour.
We had an ELSAN toilet at the rear of the aircraft, but it was not used very much when we were flying. We all had our own metal cans close by us that we could use and they were emptied into the Elsan Toilet as we left the aircraft. The Elsan toilet was at the rear of the aircraft, and to get there in flight you needed a portable oxygen bottle to breath for the journey, and for all your layers of heavy clothing, and the temperature around minus thirty degrees you could’nt [sic] take your gloves off and touch anything.
Most of our flying time over Germany was around six to eight hours. Berlin was around eight hours which our crew flew ten times. We went there three times in five days. (Nights)
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In our pockets we had a bag of sweets, and a selection of money according to which country we were flying over. Also we had a map of the area that we could use should we have to bale out and find our way to safety.
If we had flying boots with high leather padding half way up to the knee, a knife would be in one of the boots so the tops could be cut off should you be shot down in Germany, or any enemy country, to make them look just like a pair of shoes, and not flying boots.
We also had water tablets in our pockets to use when selecting water from small streams, or brooks.
As the Wireless Operator I had to know the position of some of the stars, the Navigator would ask me which ones were plainly in view. I then had to use the Sextant and take a shot of the star asked for. This was taken in Degrees & Minutes and the correct time. From this the Navigator had equipment where he could plot his position
3.12.43 around lunch time Michael Beetham was instructed to take his crew to RAF Waddington to collect a Lancaster.
When we got there the Lancaster DV376 was already loaded with bombs and before we took it to our airfield, we had to go off and bomb Leipzig first, then take it to Skellingthorpe
During the operation we were attacked and damaged by a JU88, we were very short of fuel and managed to land at Wittering.
Another Lancaster from Skellingthorpe had to collect us the next day and take us back to our base Skellingthorpe whilst the Lancaster DV376 went thro [sic] repairs.
On the 29.12.43 we had to Bomb Berlin, and had a [sic] Incendiary Bomb through our Starboard Outboard Petrol tank and were lucky to get back home again.
We flew on operations to Berlin ten times, and in doing so, we lost 383 aircraft
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Our first three operations were to Berlin [underlined] 22.11.43 23.11.43 26.11.43 55 MISSING. [/underlined]
114 aircraft missing in our first three operations.
The inter comm system was powered by two smallish Lead Acid Batteries. Every morning, it didnt [sic] matter if the aircraft had flown or not these Lead Acid Batteries had to be replaced.
Each morning after breakfast, I as the Wireless operator, I had to visit on my bike the Battery Store. I had to collect the two batteries on my bike and cycle across the airfield where the Lancaster was parked. I had to change the batteries in the Lancaster. I then had to visit the flight offices and ask for the form 700 for our Lancaster.
I then had to sign it to say the batteries had been changed, then on my bike again I would return the two batteries that I had removed from the Lancaster to the battery store where they would be put on charge again.
This I had to do as the Wireless Operator every day, regardless of the day of the week or the weather. Even if the Lancaster had not left its parking site. The hardest job was finding the form 700.
If we were on our way back after an operation over Germany, and the weather was bad over lincoln [sic],”usually fog”. we would be diverted to another airfield which could be as much as sixty miles away from Lincoln.
To help our navigator, I would contact the airfield and ask for a QDM, a course to steer to reach them. By pressing down my morse key, the receiving station could give me a course to fly to reach their airfield, which I would then pass on to our navigator & the pilot.
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My Navigator was a wind finder, this because he was an experiest [sic] Navigator of around thirty years or more of age.
The winds that he found I would pass them on to 5 group, and these would be passed on to all 5 group aircraft in their half hourly broadcasts.
One evening I spent some time passing wind details to the 5 group radio people not knowing if the receiver was a man or a WAAF female.
In morse code I asked if the receiver was a male or a WAAF. I got a very short but strong answer,
In morse code I got, ([symbols]) which was a [underlined] G [/underlined] and an [underlined] S [/underlined]
The G & the S. was a short way to tell me to [underlined] get Stuffed. [/underlined]
When I attended de briefing after the operation, I asked if the 5 group radio operators tonight were male or female, and I was told they are all WAAF female operators.
All this gave us a lighter side of the serious thing we were doing in bombing cities in Germany ETC.
During our training days at RAF Cottesmore, we would be riding our bikes back to Cottesmore after an evening out at Stamford. Frank Swinyard our Navigator would ask me to point out certain stars in the sky, as he always asked me to do his astro shots for him with the sextant.
He had to make sure that I knew the star that he wanted Both he and our pilot (now Sir Michael Beetham) received the DFC. after war, but for us Sgts, there was nothing.
We always relied on my radio bearings when in trouble to get us home safely.
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When flying over the sea, I was taught to let my trailing aerial out, this hung down from the aircraft and [deleted] locked [/deleted] [inserted] touch’d [sic] [/inserted] the sea when the aircraft was flying at sixty feet.
If the pilot was flying over the sea and in the dark he could not see the water if he was going to ditch.
With my radio on, I would loose [sic] my signal as soon as the aerial touched the sea, and I would tell the pilot we are at 60 ft, and he would land the aircraft in the sea. We would call this ditching, “having to ditch”
When we were doing our training, flying as a crew on 14 operational unit at Cottesmore, I would tune my radio into one of the regular BBC programmes and we would all listen to some nice music, I would turn it down should our pilot want to give us instructions. Our cross country flights sometimes lasted two or three hours.
It became general practice for bomber crews to wear a white silk scarf when flying on operations, printed in black ink on the scarves [deleted] wh [/deleted] were the names of the German cities that the wearer had bombed. This went on for a short time until we heard that airmen shot down over Germany wearing one of these scarves, had one wound round their necks and hung on a lampost [sic] etc. This soon stopped us wearing them anymore.
By this time Ena my ATS girl friend and I had become very close to each other, she knew I was on operations, as I had contacted her & told her I would not be seeing her this evening.
However in the morning on the BBC news they would mention the RAF Bombing raid, then finish by saying sixty five of our bombers failed to return, and she could’nt [sic] believe it when I rang her the next day and said I will meet you again tonight.
[page break]
22
On a bombing raid to a large German city, the RAF Pathfinder Force would have arrived there and dropped marker flares for us to aim at, Greens & Reds.
Along with them would be the master Bomber, he would be in charge of the operation.
Green & Red marker flares were dropped all around the city and his voice could be heard telling us not to aim at the Reds, but hit the greens. I think what surprised me most was his bad language and his swearing.
I spoke to Michael Beetham and asked who was that man using that language over the target and he would say it was Wing Commander So & So.
I never thought that an officer such as Wing Co. would use language like that, I only heard it from Erks as we queued for our lunch.
The RAF bombers arrived over their targets in two or three different waves, each wave flew at a different height, should you be late getting over Berlin, you could have two hundred bombers dropping bombs from above. Our navigator F/O Frank Swinyard always urged Michael Beetham to get to the target on time.
There could be 500 ft between the height of each wave. One night we had a bomb dropped on us from above, it punched a large hole in one of our petrol tanks, passing thro [sic] the wing. We were lucky that the tank was empty, the petrol being used to get us to the target, should it have been the one next to it which was full, we would never have got back to Lincoln.
The wireless operator controlled the heat entering the Lancaster, you could never please all the crew. It entered the aircraft from the Engine Exhaust by the side of the Navigator, If I turned it up to please the pilot & Flight Engineer, the navigator would tap my knee and get me to turn it down a bit.
[page break]
23
[underlined] LANDING INSTRUCTIONS [/underlined]
When there was [underlined] two Squadrons [/underlined] based at the same airfield
This could involve over thirty aircraft wanting to land at their airfield, and most of them had only twenty minutes fuel left in their tanks.
[underlined] NUMBER [/underlined] 1 The first aircraft to arrive had to orbit at three thousand feet, and as he circled the airfield he would call out his position on the circuit such as “CROSS ROADS,” OR “BAKERS FARM,” “RAILWAY STATION”, then NUMBER 2 would arrive and call up and he would follow No 1 on the circuit shouting out NO 2 BAKERS FARM ETC,
After around four of five aircraft were circling at three thousand feet, number one would be told to circle at two thousand feet, but still shout his number and position on the circuit, until he was called down to one thousand feet, where he would call out, No 1 down wind, then he would call out No 1 Funnels, then No 1 “touching” “down” then No 1 clear as he left the runway
Our flying control would give the calling aircraft their number and instruct them when they could reduce their height as long as they all called there positions out whilst flying round the circuit
This would possibly go on for fourty [sic] aircraft to land. Our crews were trained to do this on night training exercises, to prevent aircraft running out of fuel whilst circling the airfield many times waiting to land.
My pilot, Michael Beetham (now Sir Michael Beetham) was told by one of the WAAF M.T. drivers that he could use one of the Commer vans on the airfield to check on the servicability [sic] of the aircraft. He asked me if I could drive a car, and on telling him NO. He then said, I have never driven a car.
[page break]
24
This came about because the Wing Comm. Spoke to Michael Beetham and said, now you have been promoted to a Flt Lt you will have the responsibility of checking the servicability [sic] of the Lancasters in “B Flight, but you can use one of the comer vans to get round the airfield. He didnt [sic] like to tell the Wing Commander that he had never driven a car before.
As the Wireless Operator I had the major hot air supply control close to my seating. Also it was close to where the Navigator spread his maps and charts to keep us on course.
The actual heat came from the flames of the port inner “Roles [sic] Royce” Merlin Engine, and were quite hot at times.
The navigator often got quite hot during checking his Course and direction, and signalled me to turn it down a bit, but after ten minutes or so the crew at the front of the aircraft complained at feeling the cold.
I could never please all of them.
Frank Swinyard FLT.LT. was our navigator, also he was a wind finder, from time to time he would find a wind & I would transmit it to our five group base
We must have had around ten aerials on the Lancaster, most of them small whip radar aerials, these had to be looked at before each flight to check that they had not been damaged by the ground crews
[page break]
25
During the bombing operations that we did to Berlin, I would look out of the astro dome and see areas of Berlin covered in the small incendiary bombs, the wide roads were plain to see running thro [sic] the city with all the buildings on fire each side of the roads.
At regular intervals the four thousand pound cookies would explode in the roads and that part of the wide road could not be seen any more, the whole area was covered in large cicular [sic] explosion areas, and the wide roads that were clear to see at the beginning of the raid, were not there anymore, just one large area of fire.
As we had no washing facilities on the site where we slept, we had to walk some distance to the Sgts mess, there we had washing and shower facilities. After we had been in the showers and dried ourselves we had to fold up our towels and put them back in our canvas hold alls, they never got dry, and were always damp when we used them.
Our canvas hold alls were hung on a long row of coat hooks in the shower room of the Sgts Mess.
After a number of weeks we were told to remove our canvas hold alls from the Sgts Shower rooms for a single day. During this time all the canvas holdalls were removed on a trolley that were [underlined] still [/underlined] hanging on the coat hooks, these hold alls were the property of the Sgts who were missing from operations.
When our Lancaster was taking off with an overload of bombs, I would see the flames comming [sic] from the port inner engine, and spreading over the leading edge of the wing.
It was only a few hours before that I had seen the petrol Bowser pumping petrol into the wings in the same area. And petrol running down the wings.
I felt easier after ten minutes of flight, only a small flame leaving the exhaust.
[page break]
26
During my time with 50 Sqdn at RAF SKELLINGTHORPE aircrew started wearing long silk scarf’s [sic] (pure white) on the scarf’s [sic] were printed in black marking ink the names of the German cities that they had bombed.
We were all proud of our scarves mine had the name of Berlin on it ten times.
This all came to an end when it was found out that aircrew who were shot down and were wearing one of these scarfs angered the german public, that the scarf was hung round the airmans neck and he was hanged from the nearest lamp post or tree.
I dont [sic] think I saw anyone wearing his any longer.
I still have mine in my wardrobe.
The pilot of the Lancaster sat in the front of the Lancaster on the Port (Left) side, behind him sitting at a large table was the Navigator, he needed a large table to spread his maps open so he could read his maps.
Also on the left hand side of the aircraft, behind the Navigator was the Wireless Operator, who had his large Marconi transmitter and receiver in a smaller table, along with his morse key for him to transmit his messages etc.
Also by the side of the Wireless operator was the Monica (aircraft Warning) Receiver which he had to keep his eyes on thro [sic] out the flight.
Down along the Starboard side of the aircraft were a number of box’s [sic] of “Window”. Window was small lengths of stiff paper, with a stiff metal like coating on the paper strips. The Bomb aimer in the nose of the aircraft would thro [sic] out a bundle every five or six mins or so, and each time he would call out Window.
A large blip would show on my Monica screen as it passed us by, and I had no need to shout a warning.
When I saw a blip on the monica screen & the
[page break]
27.
bomb aimer had said nothing, I would shout a warning, shouting “CONTACT” “STARBOARD QUARTER UP” our Lancaster would dive in a different direction and for the next few minutes everyone would search the sky until we were sure we were on our own again,.
The paper bundles of window strips were along the bomb bay floor in a row along the starboard side,
As our flight continued I would keep passing these bundles down to the bomb aimer in the nose of the aircraft, and as he said “WINDOW” I would see the blip apear [sic] on my Monica screen.
Its when I saw a blip apear [sic] on my screen and the bomb [inserted] aimer [/inserted] had not spoken that I shouted contact Port, should it be that, or Starboard if it was on our starboard side.
As a Wireless operator I had to tune my receiver to our five Group radio broadcast every half hour to see if they had any messages for us.
One part of my operational flying that I never felt easy with, was when we became airborne on an operation.
The Lancaster always had a one thousand pound over load and the engines needed every bit of power to get us airborn. [sic]
I would look out of my small side window and see the flames leaving the port engine exhaust, the flames were so long they even left large scorch marks on the wings, each side of the engine.
I knew that in those wings were over two thousand gallons of high octain [sic] petrol, the flames would burn the paint off the wings, each side of the engine. This continued until we reached the height we were detailed to fly at over Germany.
[page break]
28.
In our flying clothing pockets we had a fare [sic] ammount [sic] of French or Dutch money which we could use if we had to bale out of the aircraft over such as Holland or France. We also had a supply of water purification tablets to make sure we had drinking water. This all had to be handed back in to the Squadron after landing, which we were always glad to.
A little farther down the aircraft where the Navigator sat, and the Wireless operator, was the rest bed, quite a large bed where a crew member could be placed if he had been wounded.
It was also handy for placing spare heavy flying clothing, especially if I myself had to move into one of the turrets to take the place of a gunner if he had been wounded. I would need to wear some heavy warm clothing.
All our Wireless operators had completed an Airgunners course during his training and could man one of the turrets if need be.
During our crew training period at 14 OTU Cottesmore and Market Harborough we were detailed to do long cross country flights taking two or three hours.
I made this period a little more enjoyable by selecting some nice music on the radio and feeding it on to our “inter comm” circuit in the Wellington,.
Our crew always looked forward to this.
But when flying on our operations over Germany we needed every bit of information on the inter comm spoken, and action had to take place immediately
29.
Our Pilot Michael Beetham was concerned that we were always in bed at nights at a reasonable time.
He had nothing to fear for Fred our rear gunner and myself, as our two ATS girl friends had to be in their quarters before ten oclock [sic] at nights failing this they were not allowed out at nights for some time.
We only had a fifteen minutes bike ride back to our hut at Skellingthorpe, and were soon in bed.
Our ATS girls often gave us a sandwich or a slice of cake to eat on our way back to Skellingthorpe so we didnt [sic] go back feeling hungry.
During our operations and the long journey, our reward came when our Bomb Aimer decided which bunch of PFF marker flares he was going to aim att. [sic]
He would then say “Bomb Doors Open”, and a cold draft would fill the aircraft, then he said “Steady” Steady – “Steady”, and then “Bombs Gone”. You could hear and feel the “clonk”, “clonk”, as the bombs left their positions hanging in the bomb bay. The cold air left you as he said Bomb Doors closed.
We all felt better now we had no bombs on board, and the aircraft felt much lighter now all we had was the long journey home, hoping that there would be no fog over our airfield and we could have a nice long sleep.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Before I was in the RAF by Reg Payne
Wartime Memories
Description
An account of the resource
An account by Reg Payne of his wartime experiences. Too young to sign up at the start of the war he spent two years in the Home Guard. Training started at age 18 and lasted for two years. He served at RAF Skellingthorpe and his brother served at RAF Fiskerton. His brother was shot down and taken prisoner but Reg was not allowed to go home to comfort his mother.
He met his future wife in the Unity bar in Lincoln.
Reg survived a crash on a fighter training session when four of his aircrew died.
He also survived ten operations to Berlin. On one operation they were shot up and lost a lot of fuel and had to make an emergency landing at RAF Wittering where no one could be found because they were at a party, on base.
Arriving back on another operation they found everywhere fogged in but landed at RAF Melbourne where they had to stay for a few days until the fog cleared. They had no clothes to change into, no money and no toothbrushes.
After one operation they landed safely and on powering down the aircraft a bomb, which should have been dropped over Germany, came free and rattled down the bomb bay without exploding.
Once they came back with a large hole in the wing, made by a bomb.
On another op they shot down a JU-88 night fighter.
Bombing operations were directed by a Master Bomber who set flares.
Reg and Fred were given Lincoln Imps as mascots but the night Fred died he had left his mascot on another tunic.
He describes the landing procedures when 40 Lancasters arrive back at the same time, most low on fuel.
His navigator, Fl Lt Frank Swingerd calculated winds aloft and Reg transmitted these to 5 Group aircraft.
He describes the various operating areas of the crew on board the Lancaster.
Creator
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Reg Payne
Format
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28 handwritten pages
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BPayneRPayneRv2
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Rutland
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Leipzig
England--Cornwall (County)
Germany
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Tricia Marshall
David Bloomfield
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
14 OTU
5 Group
50 Squadron
aircrew
Blenheim
bomb struck
bombing
civil defence
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
flight engineer
ground personnel
heirloom
Home Guard
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lincoln
love and romance
lynching
Master Bomber
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
pilot
prisoner of war
radar
RAF Bardney
RAF Cottesmore
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Melbourne
RAF Pocklington
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Eval
RAF Waddington
RAF Wittering
sanitation
superstition
training
Window
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/732/10731/ACammishHS180501.1.mp3
335573b368d310af0483cc6bbc3fd591
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cammish, Harrison Stanley
H S Cammish
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Harry Cammish (b. 1923, 1624536, Royal Air Force).
He flew operations as a flight engineer with 50 Squadron and evaded after being shot down.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cammish, HS
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JB: That should be recording. This interview is being carried out for the International Bomber Command Centre. The date is the 1st of May 2018. The interviewer is Jennifer Barraclough. The interviewee is Mr Harry Cammish. The interview is being carried out at Mr Cammish’s home in Orewa near Auckland. Ok, Mr Cammish. Thank you very much for taking part. Can you tell me a bit about your earlier life? How you came to, and then how you came to join up?
HC: Yeah. Well, my name is Harrison Stanley Cammish. I was born in Scarborough, Yorkshire in 1923. I was the youngest of a family of four. I had three elder sisters. I was the only boy. Two of my sisters actually joined the WAAF during the war. When I was fourteen years of age I was apprenticed as a carpenter and joiner in Scarborough, and was happily learning the trade when war broke out in 1939. I joined the Air Training Corps and I also joined the Home Guard. And the Home Guard gave me a rifle and forty rounds of ammunition and I had to patrol the coastline and keep England safe from the enemy. My mother would never enter my bedroom once I’d got the rifle and forty rounds of ammunition. That was it. She wouldn’t come in to my bedroom anymore. When war broke out in 1939, as I say, I joined the Air Training Corps and the Home Guard. And when I turned eighteen I, I volunteered for aircrew duties and I was sent down to a place in Bedfordshire. Cardington, I think the place was, for a three day course, selection board, and health and testing type of thing and they sent me home with an Air Force number. I was in the Air Force from that, from that day onwards. Sent me home to await call up. I was called up late, in the middle of 1942, and I went to a place called Padgate in Lancashire where we got kitted out with all our Air Force gear. From there we went to Blackpool where we had foot drill, bashing up and down the promenade there, learning how to march in time and one thing and another. And after that I got sent down to St Athan. St Athans in South Wales, where for the first time I learned that I was going to be trained as a flight engineer. The rest of the section that was with me, we’d never heard of flight engineers before but it appears that it was, we took place of the second pilot because there were so many instruments and gauges to watch that they needed another pair of eyes. I didn’t, we all, first of all did a flight mechanics course which lasted quite a few weeks. And at the end of the course, they decided to give us forty eight hours leave which was no good to me. No way could I get up to Yorkshire from St Athans in South Wales in forty eight hours so it was a case of just staying on the camp ‘til the next course started. Some of the boys that I was with didn’t want to go through all this technical training. They wanted to be flying so they volunteered to go as straight air gunners which was only a six weeks course. So, we lost a few of our section over the period of training. On the completion of the flight engineer’s course I was posted to a Heavy Conversion Unit in Lincolnshire where for the first time I met the other members who I were going to crew up with. There was a Canadian, there was two cockneys and a couple of Englishmen and we made up the crew and having done a few circuits and bumps we were posted to the operational station, 50 Squadron at Skellingthorpe. The procedure when a new crew arrives at an aerodrome is for the pilot to go with another experienced crew for a little bit of know-how but to my horror I was told that I was going to take the place of an engineer who was sick. So, I was the first of the crew to fly on operations. So, I had one, I had one op above the rest of the crew. On our third operation we were about to take off with a full bomb load and tearing down the runway the pilot lost control and we skidded off the runway and slammed into one of the hangars. Now, from this moment onwards I, I don’t have any recollection of what actually happened, but from what I was told afterwards I got out of the aircraft and took off across the airfield, climbed over the perimeter fence, went down the country lane, and the first cottage I went to I, I knocked on the door and there was an elderly couple lived there. And I told them that I’d just come from a crashed bomber and it was going to explode any minute which must have put panic in to the old couple. Anyhow, they sat me down on the settee and made me a cup of tea while the elderly gentleman went and told the policeman that there was an aircrew member in his house that had just come from a bomber. A crashed bomber. Well, the next minute the ambulance came flying down from the station and picked me up and they’d been looking for the, they’d been looking for the engineer. They’d got all the others in to the military hospital but there was the engineer missing. Then of course when they got the call from this local body, bobby down in the village that was it and I duly arrived at the military hospital after all the other fellas had been. Had been in there. When I sort of regained my full mind I,I was in the same ward as the rear gunner was and unfortunately for the poor chap he’d suffered terrible burns and all I could see was his two eyes and his fingertips peering through the bandages. And with it being a military hospital anybody that was capable of walking and that had to look after the other members in the ward and it was my job to attend to his toiletries and one thing and another. Anyhow, I, I recovered sufficiently to go back to the station and the wing commander said to me, ‘Well, Cammish, I suppose you want leave.’ And I said, ‘Well, sir, I haven’t had any leave for nine months. My mother’s never seen me since I left home.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘Before you, before you go,’ he said, ‘We want you to go up for a little flight.’ And I thought oh dear. And he said, ‘There’s a crew about to take off on a night flying test and we want you to go down there and join the crew.’ So, I, I went to the dispersal unit and the crew was waiting for me. I think it was a bit of a put-up job myself. The crew was waiting for me and, and we took off and the pilot said, ‘Come up to the front,’ where the engineers are, ‘Come up to the front. Take up your position.’ And I said, horrors upon horrors we were taking off on the same runway as what we’d crashed and over to the left was this wrecked hammer line with a big hole because it had exploded after we, after we left and left quite a big hole. So anyhow, I went. I went home on leave and here was, here was a mother’s son. I’d put on about another stone. I was a sergeant in uniform. It took her all her time for mum to recognise me. I had a nice leave and reported back to the squadron and I thought I’d be sent back to the training unit to pick up another crew. But the commanding officer thought no I’d stay on the squadron as a substitute engineer for any other engineers that weren’t fit to fly. It wasn’t a very pleasant job because the crews, a crew is like a family. They rely on one another and trust one another and the stranger amongst them isn’t quite accepted by them. So it wasn’t, it wasn’t a very nice job. I had three different crews in a very short time. Anyhow, on the sixteenth operation I, well I wasn’t, I wasn’t posted for this sixteenth operation. I was getting set to have a night out in Lincoln and I got the call, ‘You’re needed to get into your gear. There’s an engineer been taken sick,’ or something. And, ‘Get into your gear.’ And it was such short notice it was, and I went to pick up my flying gear and I had a premonition. I had a funny feeling in my stomach and I had a premonition. I thought I’m not very happy about this but there’s nothing you can do about it so I joined the crew. I didn’t even know the names of the crew. I only knew the pilot’s name because it was such last minute orders. Anyhow, we, we got airborne. Everything seemed to be going all right. We weren’t far short of the target when we got attacked by a night fighter and the first thing we knew was the whole aircraft shuddered and we went out of control in a dive. The pilot’s controls were useless and the port wing was, was burning like fury so it was time to leave the aircraft. The bomb aimer, who was in the nose couldn’t get the hatch open and the pilot was kicking me on the back, ‘Hurry up. Hurry up,’ but I couldn’t do much about it. I had to wait for the bomb aimer to go. The next minute the shaft opened and out went the bomb aimer and out went I after him. And from all the bangs and rattles and crashes and fires and one thing and another it was absolute peace and quiet floating down in the parachute. I did hear the fighter droning around and I saw the bomber explode on the ground. I landed in about two feet of snow because it was winter time and took off the parachute, bundled it all into a heap and took off because our escape lectures always told you to get as far away from your landing as possible. So, I took off and headed in a westerly direction and I came across a railway line and I thought well it’ll be easier walking on the railway lines than, than through the fields and paddocks. But in those days, we had the early type suede flying boots and there’s no way you can walk long distances especially on, on a railway line. And I heard, I heard the toot of a train in the distance and I thought well if this is a goods train, a slow-moving train now’s my chance to get as far as possible from it. But it was an express train and it went past me about ninety miles an hour so there was no chance of getting on that. Anyhow, I kept walking for a several of hours and I eventually came to a small station. I didn’t know whether we were in Germany or in France to be quite honest but I saw the name on the board. Embermenil it was. Embermenil. And I thought well that doesn’t sound German and I peered through the window and there was a fellow in uniform sitting over the desk and he didn’t look German either so I thought well, I’ll risk it. So, I went in to the, opened the door and went in to the office and he looked up at me. You can imagine his surprise seeing an Air Force man in flying gear standing at the doorway and I told him, ‘RAF. RAF.’ And he put his finger up to his mouth and he said, ‘Shhhh Bosch. Bosch.’ So, I gather there was some Germans somewhere in the vicinity. And he, he took me in to the village, knocked on the door of the cottage and the door opened and he said something in French to the fella and they dragged me into the house and he went back to the station. And this was, they looked, there was only two rooms, it was a small cottage and they were obviously a farm labourer of some sort and the wife wanted to know where I’d left my parachute. She was after the silk obviously, and I couldn’t tell her where it was. My French lessons had long, long since vanished but she made, she made the expected, ‘Parachute.’ Anyhow, they took, I took all my flying gear off and I had a nice silk vest underneath and silk pants and the three of us shared the same bed ‘til the next morning [laughs] And I was, I was, the next morning the farm labourer went out and he, he came back and, and he was, I, I got the message that one of the crew was dead. One of the crew was dead. More, more, more. One of you more. And there was also he brought a poster back which the Germans were pinning up all over the place, “Ten thousand franc reward for any information leading to the capture of any airmen.” So, ten thousand francs was a lot of money to a poor hardworking labourer. Well, to anyone in France but nobody, nobody gave me away and I was there for a couple of days and then a fella came riding up on a bike and he came in to the cottage and he spoke good English and he wanted to know, A my full name, B my number, C where I was stationed, D what the target was. He wanted to know everything under the sun and then of course when he came to asking me the names of the crew I said, ‘I don’t know the names of the crew. I only knew the name of the pilot.’ Which was a bit dicey. I mean they were very suspicious. The Germans it appears had a habit of dressing someone up in Air Force uniform and then pretending they’d been shot down and then follow the escape routes right the way through and then turn around and capture the whole escape route. So, so they were, they were very, so the name, rank and number disappeared in the thin air. I told him everything I could. Even where I was born. And they must have been in touch with London because he came back a couple of days later and said, ‘Right. We’ll be escorting you to the next line.’ And he said, what, ‘We’ll send you a guide,’ and he said, ‘The guide will never walk alongside you. He will always be ahead of you and if he gets caught you get away and if you get caught he gets away.’ Which seemed fair enough to me. So, in the main time the railway man give me one of his spare uniforms. A thin railway porter’s uniform and here it was the middle [laughs] the middle of winter. I was never warm from that day onwards. I, anyhow, the guide duly arrived and we, we caught the train to the next, the next place, and it was Lunéville. Lunéville. And I was, I was billeted with a couple of old ladies that had, looked like a millinery shop to me and in this place, I was taken out and photographed and an identification card was given to me and I was, I was supposed to be a painter that’s on war work [laughs] The photograph was good but the rest of it was all foreign to me and from there, from that place I was escorted to Nancy. Nancy. And believe it or not I was, I was living in a policeman’s, a high, he was a high-ranking officer because he was taking me around in his car which had got a gas balloon on top of it in those days. And he which, when you come to think of it from a lowly labourer to a big high-ranking officer in the police force it just goes to show that there was a lot of Frenchmen who were prepared to put their neck out to help. To help us Air Force blokes get away. And from there, from his place I went out on to a farm. Mazerolles. Mazerolles. Named that. I went out on to the farm and the farmer, he was the head of the Resistance movement in that area and his wardrobe was full of guns and hand grenades and everything under the sun. And the Germans used to come daily to collect their meat and milk from him and I’d be sitting behind the curtains watching them and, and, he, he used to say to me, well funnily enough his boy could speak a little bit of English. They were teaching them at school. And, and he said he wouldn’t be taken alive. No way. He’d and he said that funnily enough he said all the Germans in this area are the oldies. The retired ones. They don’t, they don’t want to fight and they’ve told him that when the second front starts they’ll all surrender. They don’t want to be killed. They’ll all surrender because they knew very well he had something to do with the Resistance. And I helped him kill, kill the pig for the black market while I was there. The thing that they fed me most on was potatoes and milk. Potatoes and milk. I’m fed, I was fed up of the sight of potatoes and milk by the time I left the farm. From there, let me see. Oh, that’s right from there we went, went on to Paris and I was stationed in a very nice house overlooking, well, I could see the Eiffel tower out of the bedroom window and I was moving around Paris. One exciting incident, I was moving around Paris and I was on the Underground, Metro and the guide was at the front of the train coach and I was at the back and keeping my eye on him and horror upon horrors four German soldiers got in with rifles slung over the shoulders and I’m standing behind one of them and his rifle butt was hitting me in the stomach. And here’s me trying to do everything possible to not attract attention when this little old lady that was sitting down wanted to know the name of the station that we passed through and I knew she was asking me the name. She was pulling my jacket and [unclear]. And I was doing, that was the first time I’ve ever felt like hitting a little old lady. Luckily enough the guide got out and I jumped, I jumped out with him and, and everything turned out alright. And then the next, the next trip was from Paris to Toulouse in the south of France and I duly, I duly followed the guide. He gave me the tickets and I went and sat in this compartment and he went and sat in one further down. It was, it was a corridor train and right inside the train itself, at the entrance was this German soldier with his automatic machine gun slung across his chest. He was obviously on railway duty and I’m sitting in the compartment when the ticket collector came around. What, what the performance was you got into a corner and you pretended you were asleep. You didn’t look at anybody. You just kept yourself to yourself. And the ticket collector came in and I gave him the ticket and obviously there was some, something not right, I don’t know what it was and he started speaking to me and of course I didn’t know what on earth he was on about. And before I could say boo the guide who was, must have been watching all this he popped his head in to the compartment and he said something like. ‘Anglais aviateur.’ And the ticket collector snapped the ticket, went out, shut the door and all these people, there was about another eight people in the compartment they never said a word from Paris all the way down to Toulouse. They never said a word. They never looked at me. The never did anything and they could have opened that door and called the German in and collected the ten thousand francs reward if they’d wanted. Anyhow, I, we eventually arrived at Toulouse and we, we took, we took a train. Well, there was another guide came along. I’ve got to think about this. There was another guide came along and we went on another train tracking down the foot of the Pyrenees. We stopped at a little small place and he told me to get out and I got out and there was, there was a group oh about twenty or so people hanging around there and I saw these, these guides with their sten guns over their shoulder and they, they ushered us all together and we went for a short walk up the mountains and into a big shed. And they more or less told us that first thing in the morning we’d be off over the mountains and they gave us something to eat which was very rare. I’d had very little to eat and drink. And so we were, we were sitting. I’d taken my shoes off because they were quite uncomfortable and it was dark but I could hear American voices talking and I thought oh there must, it must be a whole group that’s going over the mountains. And I don’t know how long it was but the next minute there was bursting of automatic fire. Bullets flying everywhere and one of the guards came in and said, ‘Bosch. Bosch.’ You know, ‘Get out. Get out.’ So, everybody started running for the door and I’m trying to get my shoes on. I was, I think I was, I think I was the last man out. Out of the shed. I didn’t know where I, which direction I was going. I was just running and there was one or two of them sitting around, you know with their hands up. And I thought, a little voice said, well Harry, you’ve got this far. You might as well go the rest. So, I kept pounding on and I don’t know what happened to them. The rest of them got caught of course but I don’t know why they missed me. They had dogs with them. Anyhow, I was in the mountains for, that was one day, one night. Two days. Two nights. Three days and two nights I think it was before, and course walking up mountain after mountain you could look back and you could see your foot prints in the snow. And I’ve often thought afterwards why on earth didn’t the Germans catch me? You could look back and see your footprints right the way miles back. But somebody was looking after me alright that time. And I’d gone over one mountain and down below I could see the green fields and I thought oh this is it. And it takes as much to get down a steep hill as it does to climb up them and especially if you keep sinking in the snow all the time. In the morning the snow would be quite slippery and you’d take one pace up and two paces backwards and by mid-morning you’d be up to your calves in it and then by late afternoon well you were really trying to struggle to get ahead. Anyhow, I got, I got down the hill and there was a, there was a fella looking after goats by the, I really have to try and think about this. Was it goats or sheep? It doesn’t really matter. He was looking after them and I said, ‘Spain?’ And to this day I remember him saying, ‘Mais oui, monsieur. Spain.’ And I thought I’ve gone around in a circle. I’m still in France. I thought, horror of horrors. Anyhow, on one of the brick walls I saw this big painting of “Viva Franco.” So, I knew very well I’d, I’d made it to Spain and I staggered. He didn’t bother to help me or anything and I staggered down in to the local village there and the policeman with his big black hat came out and took me in to the cells. So, I was inside the jail but obviously the condition I was in my lips were swollen, my fingers were all swollen. I had frostbite in my feet. He, he got somebody in to look after me but I couldn’t drink. I couldn’t do anything. I was stuffing snow in my mouth over the mountains just to keep from getting dry. And anyhow I, I spent about three days in this little village. What was that? Viella. Viella. That was it. Viella, in Spain. I spent three days and it was a village that was snowbound from the rest of the country by all accounts. But someone must have got in touch with the English Consulate because I was, from the jail I went to live in the only, stay in the only hotel in the place and I was told that you know whatever I wanted I could have. They always had plenty of wine to give away so, and I wasn’t a wine drinker in those days but I am [laughs] I soon learned. Diamante and Monopole was the best two wines [laughs] and, and I gradually, oh and there was, in the village was, was a couple of German deserters and they followed me about like sheep because they didn’t have any money and I didn’t want them anywhere near me because a lot of the Spanish were very pro-German. Especially the higher up. The officials. The working class people were like the working class people everywhere. They’d give you help and this, that and the other and I spent I don’t know how many days it’s so long ago now but I spent a few days in [pause] And I remember one incident. I took the bottle of wine down to the, to the river and I dropped off to sleep with siesta time and when I woke up again the wine was still intact, the money I had, pesetas was still intact. Nobody, nobody would touch it and the policeman, he came to me and he said, ‘We’re walking out now. We’re going. The snow has thawed enough for us to get over the top.’ So, I said, I said. ‘Oh righto. Righto.’ So, we’re, I’m trudging behind him still with this porter’s uniform on, still will these patent leather shoes on which [laughs] I’m, I’m coming up over the hill and I wasn’t too happy with him. He didn’t smile or anything like that and I wasn’t very happy and I got the impression he might be going to pop me off in the snow and just forget about it you see. You get all sorts of impressions. So, I kept close behind him because he was smaller than me and I’m sure I could have overpowered him and, and he took off his rifle off his shoulder and I thought get ready, and he offered it to me. He’d seen a rabbit and he wanted me to have a pot shot at the rabbit [laughs] So once that happened I was quite happy then. I knew I was quite safe, and we got over the mountains in to, oh I forget the name. I forget the name of the first place I got to and here was, here was a representative of the British Embassy waiting for me. And of course, he looked at me [laughs] and we went shopping and I had a real nice outfit. Shirt, trousers, sports coat but they had difficulty finding a size nine shoe [laughs] Yeah. Anyhow, there I was dressed up to kill and he took, he took me out for a meal. We went out for this meal and I’m thinking these, these little bits of meat’s lovely. It wasn’t until afterwards I found out I’d been eating snails [laughs] but they were, they tasted very nice. Then I went down to [pause] where was it? I forget the name. It was, it was, it was a sort of a holding place and that’s where I met some Americans that had come over the top and there was a whole group of them in, in this hotel and it was the first time ever that I think that an RAF man had more money in his pocket than the Americans had [laughs] But the pay clerk at the British Embassy said to me, ‘How long is it since you’ve been paid?’ And I said, ‘Thirteen weeks.’ And he said, ‘Oh, and what is your pay?’ And I told him and he said, ‘Well, when, when you’re wanting a bit of cash come in and see me.’ And he was a, he was a man from Hull which is just a few miles down below Scarborough and he was a Yorkshireman and I think he had a bit of a guilty complex that here he was in a nice country because there was lights, there was food, there was fruit. There was everything you could dream of and I think he had a bit of a guilty conscience that he was living like that and here was us in England suffering bombing and such like. So, I used to go regularly and collect my two hundred and fifty peseta and I, I’d go out, go out with the Americans and we would go into a bar and the only thing I can order was, ‘Cerveza. Cerveza.’ ‘Beer. Beer. Beer.’ Anyhow, I thought I’d better take some souvenirs. I’d better take some souvenirs home with me. So, I, I got some cigars for my dad. I got some 4711 for my mother and then I thought well, stockings. Silk stockings is always, is always wanted so I went into this lady’s shop and the two young assistants bustled me out, ‘No. No. No. No.’ Spanish men never went in to women’s shops. In fact, the ambassador said to me, he said, ‘Whatever you do,’ well not the ambassador but his representative, ‘Whatever you do,’ he said, ‘Don’t stare at the women and don’t wink at the women,’ you know. Don’t do any. ‘Don’t attract attention at all. Just keep a low profile because there’s quite a lot of people don’t like the British in here.’ In one case what actually happened Franco I think was coming up by train and they made sure I stayed in the hotel that day. Didn’t go outside the hotel. But getting back to the shop, these two assistants tried to shove me out and I said, ‘No. No. No, Senorita. Stockings,’ and there was a glass female leg on the counter with a stocking on it and I said, ‘This is what I want.’ And, ‘No. No.’ They, they weren’t having anything of it. And then an old assistant, she’d be in her forties I should think she came out and she said, ‘Inglesi?’. And I said, ‘Si Si. Inglesi.’ And she must have said something to the girls about these Englishmen are all mad or something because the girls started giggling and the old lady got me the stockings that I wanted, I wanted out. So, so that then from, from Madrid, I went down right to the south. A place called La Linea and there was the border to crossing to go to Gibraltar and it was just a case of jumping on a bus and going across the crossing and I, on this side there was, there was Spanish soldiers armed to the teeth. They were everywhere. Soldiers. And I got on the bus and crossed over. When I got out of the bus at the other side there was a kilted Scotsman with a rifle and a fixed bayonet and I said, I said, ‘There’s a whole platoon of Spanish soldiers over there.’ And he said, ‘Oh, I’m up to that. I’m up to that,’ he said [laughs]. Anyhow, Gibraltar. I got, I got kitted out again in uniform and I had this little kit bag where I had all my, all my loot in there. All the thingamybobs. And I got priority to fly back to England and I’m, I’m in this Dakota with several high-ranking officers and such forth. Probably wondered what is this fella coming on here for? We eventually got to Whitchurch I think it was. Near Bristol, and I’m going through the customs and one of the customs officers said, ‘What are have you, what are you doing amongst this, all this high brass?’ And I said, ‘Oh, I’m an escaped prisoner of war.’ He said, ‘Oh, is that right?’ and he put a big chalk on my bag and I walked through without any inspections at all and the others had to open their bags and be inspected. And I had more loot than all those put together, I think. Anyhow, as I get through the customs there were a couple of nice gentlemen waiting for me and they said, ‘Oh, we’re escorting you back to London.’ I said, ‘Can’t I send a message home telling them — ’ ‘No. No. No. No. You can do all that after you’ve been to London.’ Now, my mother had never heard a word from me from that day until I landed in Gibraltar and she hadn’t a clue if I was alive or not so you must, you can see what she must have been going through. Her and dad. And I got, we got to London. I think it was MI6 or MI5 I forget what they were and they interrogated me. Wanted to know, you know questions like, ‘What’s the name of the cinema in your home town?’ You know, just general intelligence questions. Well, of course I sailed through those questions and I, I had to report to a WAAF officer and she said to me, ‘Alright,’ she said, I’m, I’m the pay. I’ve got to give you the pay for, when were you last paid?’ And I said, ‘Thirteen weeks ago.’ I didn’t tell her I’d been to told the fella in Hull it was thirteen weeks. Thirteen. ‘Oh, you haven’t.’ ‘No. No.’ So, she worked out what thirteen weeks pay was and this, that and the other and then she said to me, ‘And did you lose your wristwatch?’ And I said, ‘No. No. We didn’t carry wristwatches. Only the navigator.’ And she said, ‘Oh, I’m sure you must have had a wristwatch so we’ll put ten pounds down there. And what about shoes?’ I said, ‘No. No. We had flying boots. Didn’t wear shoes.’ And she was quite right in one respect. She said, ‘Weren’t you told to take a pair of shoes with you when you wore suede boots because of the walking?’ And I said, ‘Oh yeah, but I never did.’ ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘We’d better put something down for a pair.’ And she boosted my pay up by another fifteen pounds which I thought was very nice of her. And I went home. I went home for three weeks. Three weeks leave. And when I reported back again there was no counselling in those days but I did have to go and have a talk with, we used to call them trick cyclists but I think it was [laughs] trick cyclists we called them. And I had to go and have a talk with him and I thought it was a bit odd. Anyhow, the next thing I was, I was posted to, back to St Athans on a refresher course. So, I thought well that’s quite good so I went back to St Athans on the refresher course and I’d only been back about three or four weeks when I got posted to a Mosquito training unit of all things. I hadn’t a clue what I was doing there and I reported to the officer I had in the Training Command and he said to me, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘We asked for someone to come up. These pilots have all been flying Beaufighters. Radial engines, and we needed someone to tell them about inline. The Merlin 21 engine. So, we’ve asked for an instructor.’ And I said, ‘I’ve never instructed in my life.’ You know. ‘Oh. Well, you know about Merlin engines.’ I said, ‘Well, yeah.’ ‘And we’ve got the charts to hang on the walls so it’s just a case of pointing out.’ And I soon learned that these fellas, they didn’t want to ask any questions. All they wanted to do was get flying so they never asked any awkward questions. Quite the opposite. If they saw me in the local village pub they’d buy me free beer. And, and I was a flight sergeant and some of these blokes were flight lieutenants with decorations. DFM and that. But the officer in the training said, ‘As soon as you put that white jacket on you’re the boss in that classroom.’ So, from me being very hesitant it turned out to be quite a cushy number. But I made the fatal mistake in criticising some of the way things were done which I shouldn’t have done. But in those, I mean I’m an ex-flying man. I’m ex-Bomber Command. These are only training bods, you know. So, I felt a bit superior to them which proved my undoing because it got back to the officer in charge and he said, ‘Well, if you don’t like the way we do things, Cammish,’ He said, ‘We can soon fix that.’ So, from Shropshire I was posted up to Inverness. Right in the north of Scotland and they said [laughs] I got there, it was a Coastal Command station, they didn’t know why I was doing there. What I had come from. They hadn’t flown for several days because of the icy conditions. So here was me stuck up in this Coastal Command station for about two weeks before somebody thought we’d better get rid of him again. So, I went from there down to [pause] from the north of Scotland I went down to South Cerney in Gloucester which was very nice. And then they decided that I really should go on a flying control course. I weren’t doing engineering any more. So, I went from South Cerney to Charmy Down near Bath to train on a, on a flying control course which I did and that’s where I met my dear wife. We were married in Bath Abbey and had a happy fifty five years of married life. But getting back to that, I’m at Charmy Down and we did the flying control course and what we finished up doing was as the Americans were leaving the country we, we were a skeleton crew that had to go and shut down the station. No aircraft were allowed to fly. You know. And that was a very cushy number too. We, there was about sixty of us and we put down rations for about a hundred and sixty so we were fed well. In fact, the last, the last few months in the, in the Royal Air Force was very, very relaxing for me. Very relaxing. I went from flying control to Snaith in South Yorkshire. And that was another funny thing. When I was stationed in Bath, in Charmy Down they asked me where I’d like to be stationed and the old trick is you put the opposite side of the country because that’s where they’ll point you to. But this time they got it right. I asked to go to Yorkshire and I got posted to Yorkshire and here I had to leave the wife in Bath. So that was a big boo boo, but never mind. I was at, I was at Snaith for several, several weeks and then I went to Dishforth and Dishforth was the last port of call. That was the last station I was on before I was demobbed. And at Dishforth the, of course the, your record, my records anyhow never caught up with me on the station. They were always one or two stations behind and at Dishforth you had to wait for your records to catch you up. And some of the fellas that were getting ready for demob were called in to the Pay Accounts and they came back saying, ‘They want another five pounds for mess.’ And this that and the other. Crumbs. You know. And I’m thinking blimey what’s going to happen to me? I’ve been claiming thirteen weeks pay in Spain, thirteen weeks pay in London [laughs] And, and with shifting so quickly as I say they just used to say to you, ‘What’s your rate of pay?’ Well, I was getting fifteen and six pence you know. Which was, which was good money and they’d work it out and say, ‘Well, we owe you this.’ And righto. I thought, blimey. I thought when I go up to Pay Records they’re going to say to me, ‘Mr Cammish,’ Well, I was a warrant officer then, ‘Warrant Officer Cammish, we’ve got three thirteen weeks pay [laughs] pay you owe us.’ And anyhow, I went. I went in to the Pay Section and of course when I went into the Pay Section and of course when I went missing there was a line drawn across my record, you know. And then there was another line when I come back again. And that had them bluffed a little bit and, well he said, ‘You just about, we owe you so much money by all accounts.’ And I said, ‘Oh, is that right?’ Yeah. So here I am, all those three thirteen weeks pay and I don’t owe them any money. So, I thought, well that’s great. So, I sailed down to Wembley and got my [pause] oh no. That’s right, before I left, before I left, one of the stations the commanding officer said, ‘Well, we spent a lot of money training you. You’d, you’d like to stay on the Air Force, wouldn’t you?’ And I said, ‘No. Not really.’ He said, ‘Well, I’ll guarantee you’ll only drop two ranks and then you’ll, you’ll — ’ and I said, ‘No.’ And he said, ‘You’ve made up your mind.’ It was so nice at the start but when I kept saying no his voice definitely turned nasty and he said, ‘Alright then. Clear off.’ And I said, but some, some of the fellas I knew, especially one, he was a warrant officer gunner, air gunner and he fell for this malarky that he wouldn’t drop because he wanted to fly. He loved flying. And I said, and I found out he never flew again. They put him in the Air Force Regiment. That’s like the ground crew, you know and he never flew again and he couldn’t get out of the Air Force quick enough after the war. But I wanted to, I wanted to get back to civvy life. The old bullshit was coming back. Fifty yards before headquarters you marched to attention and fifty yards after and all the rocks around the blinking place was going to be painted white and, and of course the, the regulars which, which put up with us at the start of the war started getting the better of us in the finish so life wasn’t very nice. So, I got out. Got back into Civvy Street. Got back in to the building trade. Didn’t like the way things were in England at the time so I emigrated to New Zealand in ’56 and I’ve been here ever since. I’m ninety four years of age and I’ve never regretted a day coming to New Zealand. That’s it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harrison Stanley Cammish
Creator
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Jennifer Barraclough
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-05-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACammishHS180501
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:50:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Harrison Cammish was born in Scarborough in 1923, and when he was fourteen, he became an apprentice carpenter and joiner, and when war broke out, he joined the Air Training Corps, and the Home Guard, who gave him a rifle and forty rounds of ammunition. At the age of eighteen he joined the RAF for aircrew duties and was sent to RAF Cardington for selection and training. He was sent home with his RAF number to await call up. He was sent to RAF St Athan via Padgate and Blackpool to train as a flight engineer. He did his heavy conversion and was posted to 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe. On his sixteenth operation he had a premonition that as he was called to do the operation at the last minute that he was not going to be happy with the flight. They were just short of the target and their aircraft was hit by a night fighter. He baled out and landed in occupied France. Heading west along a railway line, he came to a small station where he knocked on the office door from where he was taken to a nearby cottage. After arriving at Toulouse ready to cross into Spain he and his comrades were attacked by the Germans. After a narrow escape over the mountains, he made it into Spain and was put in contact with the British consulate. He was repatriated back to the UK via Gibraltar, and after leave and a refresher course he was posted to a Mosquito training unit to train crews on the Merlin engine. He ended up at RAF Charmy Down near Bath to do a flying control course, where he met his future wife. His last posting was to RAF Dishforth and he was demobbed from there. He decided not to remain in the RAF but to go back into civilian life, eventually emigrating to New Zealand in 1956.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Spain
New Zealand
Gibraltar
England--Bedfordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
England--London
France--Toulouse
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
50 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
civil defence
evading
flight engineer
Heavy Conversion Unit
home front
Home Guard
Lancaster
Mosquito
RAF Cardington
RAF Dishforth
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Athan
Resistance
shot down
training
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/767/10768/ADavenportE180523.2.mp3
14123a7c068a69fe6a614786d465e1f9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Davenport, Ernest
E Davenport
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ernest Davenport (b. 1923, 1237998 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 7 Squadron before being shot down and becoming a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Davenport, E
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JB: This interview is being carried out for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jennifer Barraclough and the interviewee is Mr Ernest Davenport. The interview is at his home in Manly near Auckland and the date is the 23rd of May 2018. So, thank you very much Mr Davenport for taking part. Perhaps you could start by telling me a little bit about your early life and then how you came to join up.
ED: Very well. Yes.
JB: Thank you.
ED: Well, I’ll start by introducing myself. Ernest Davenport is my name. I was born on the 4th of January 1923 in Tattenhall, Newton, Chester, Cheshire England. Soon a place in my life. The family moved to Wallasey, Cheshire in the 1930s. I was sixteen at the outbreak of war. I joined the Home Defence Volunteers in 1940 when invasion was imminent. Later the Local Defence Volunteers name was changed to Home Guard. My experience of the German blitz on Merseyside which was quite severe made me decide to join the RAF as a pilot and I hoped to become a night fighter pilot. How I came to Bomber Command is after being accepted in to the RAF Volunteer Reserve in January 1941 when I was eighteen and I commenced flying training in July 1941 and completed a course at RAF Elementary Flying Training school at Watchfield, Wiltshire. In November 1941 the weather being very bad and not much flying going on a group was formed. A group of pilots, pupil pilots was formed to go to the United States who had volunteered to train RAF personnel in the US Army Air Corps in Florida and Alabama. At that time the Americans were not in the war. Eventually we arrived in the USA in January 1942, and by that time the Americans were in the war and the situation was slightly different. Prior to that we were supposed to be going in civilian clothes but of course we now went in uniform and the Americans issued us with American uniforms which was a bit peculiar but this was the way it was to be. The course wasn’t altogether a success. The, the Americans were still on a peacetime footing and with ample manpower they were quite selective and more than half of our class was eliminated. Many for trivial reasons. The RAF reinstated many of these pupils to pilot training in Canada. By July 1942 I’d completed the US Army Air Corps primary and basic course and had about two hundred flying hours as a pilot. I was then posted to their Advanced Flying Training School in Dothan Alabama. After my second flight in a new type of aircraft with my flying instructor I was taxiing back to park when a strong gust of wind caused the aircraft to swerve and one wing touched the ground scratching the paint. That was the end of my pilot training in the USA. I was told to make my way to the Royal Canadian Air Force station at Trenton, Ontario, Canada and report to the RAF senior officer. The reselection board at Trenton interviewed me when I arrived. I was hoping to be admitted to pilot training in Canada but I was informed that there was a need for navigators and that I could resume my pilot training after completion of a tour of operations with Bomber Command. I was returned to the UK after qualifying in the observer role which included navigation, bombing and gunnery. The usual procedure was to post newly qualified personnel to Operational Training Units where they were formed into crews and did further training before being posted to operational squadrons. I was posted directly to 7 Squadron, Oakington, Cambridge. An operational squadron in the Pathfinder Force equipped with Short Stirling aircraft. The Pathfinder Force was used to mark targets for the main force to bomb. On my arrival at Oakington I reported to the squadron adjutant who took me to see the squadron commander, Wing Commander Mahaddie, who far from welcoming me demanded to know what I thought I was doing there. He went on to tell me that the, that he could have the pick of the finest crews in Bomber Command and that the minimum qualification he required was a commendable tour of operations over Germany. After I let him know the facts of my experience in the RAF he relented and told me that I could stay on his squadron for one operation and that if I was satisfactory I would be accepted. He further said that he would arrange that I could join a crew who needed a replacement for ops that night. As he was conferring a huge favour I was then introduced to my skipper to be, flying officer Ince DFC, and crew members Flying Officer Winfield, Pilot Officer Collins, Flight Sergeant Fray, Flight Sergeant Stokes and Flight Sergeant MacDonald. All of whom had completed a tour of operations before joining 7 Squadron. We went to briefing as a crew and learned that we were to attack Turin that night, the 4th of February 1943. The crew were very good. Very good. Very good natured about having such a raw recruit foisted on them and gave me a lot of help. I’d never flown in a Stirling. Didn’t know where anything was. For example, when we reached twelve thousand feet altitude climbing on course I didn’t know where, where to find an oxygen point. When we crossed the enemy coast and were fired on I had no idea how much danger we were in until I heard one of the gunners call the skipper on the intercom and say rather disinterestedly, ‘A bit of flak about ten miles on the port beam, skipper.’ The Stirling was fitted with four Bristol Hercules engines which had the handicap of not functioning well above about twelve thousand feet, so navigating the Alps was a bit tricky. It was a beautiful night but one engine, but one engine failed over the target with the result we could not maintain altitude on the way home so it was necessary to keep more than usually a keen lookout if we were to avoid the alpine peaks. There was a huge explosion in the middle of the night in Turin during which, during the raid which we heard later was due to a direct hit on the main armoury. But otherwise nothing of note. My second operation was to Cologne on the 14th of February. A much shorter trip but much more hazardous I was told by the old timer crew. How right they were. A few miles before reaching the target we were, we were to drop a navigation marker flare at a turning point for the main force. After dropping the flare we turned right on to the new course. At that moment a German night fighter who must have been following us coincidentally opened fire. Fortunately, most of the cannon shells missed except for some which damaged the petrol tanks in the port wing. Again, most fortunately the petrol did not catch fire. Being so close to the full intensity of the burst of tracer shells was a sight not to be forgotten. The gunners were highly embarrassed at not having seen the enemy fighter but their task was extremely difficult. We assessed the damage. Mostly we thought petrol leakage. It was trickling down from the main spar and puddling on the floor of the fuselage. The skipper decided to continue to the target where we had to drop markers for the main force. After successfully marking the target we turned for home. The flight engineer then announced that with the petrol loss we might not have enough fuel. We altered course for RAF Manston which is in Kent and was nominated as an emergency airfield. Arriving at Manston we found that the electrics for the undercarriage had been damaged and so it had to be manually lowered with a hand crank. Eventually the skipper landed and the slight jolt caused the port wing to sag. We travelled back to Cambridge by truck. The skipper was awarded a bar to his DFC and the flight engineer a DFM. So it went on until the 21st of June when having completed twenty operations we were forced to abandon our aircraft. Sadly, our skipper Flight Lieutenant Ince did not survive.
[recording paused]
JB: Ok. Would you like to start?
ED: Right. On the night of the 21st of June the target was Krefeld in the Ruhr Valley. After we had marked the target and were on, on course for home the mid-upper gunner reported a fire in, in the port wing. The flight engineer had a look from the astrodome and he thought that it was the petrol tanks between the, between the engines. The skipper thought possibly he’d try diving the aircraft to see if the fire would go out. So he had a try at that and the fire was, became more intense because of the velocity of the air going past, and so we levelled out again. One of the gunners came on the intercom and said, ‘Perhaps we should put our parachute on.’ So the skipper thought that might be a good idea and then he said, ‘Well, you’d better bale out boys.’ And so I went down and opened the escape hatch in the nose and somebody came down the steps and went out and I thought perhaps I’d better go too. So I sat on the edge of the, of the escape hatch and dangled my legs out and pushed off and fell out of the aircraft and then pulled the rip cord of course. And my next impression was of complete silence because the aircraft had vanished in the night and I couldn’t see anything but blackness. And so little by little I could hear noises and realised that they were distant guns going. And I found this going down in the night a bit boring so I, my ears were creaking a bit so I tried to get some chewing gum out of my trouser pocket but I couldn’t because the, the parachute harness was too tight across my body so I [pause] suddenly hit the ground and that was the, that was my introduction to Germany. So I was in some sort of a, the middle of some sort of a crop of either wheat or oats or something and I, I had a big knife which I had in my, in my waist belt for protection so I dug a hole and buried my parachute and tried to make myself look like a civilian by pulling my trouser legs over my flying boots and started walking thinking I might reach the Dutch border which wasn’t I thought too far away. But I, then I realised that the, there was a big river to cross in that direction so I just carried on walking and it was about 2 o’clock in the morning I think, and of course being mid-summer’s night it started to get light quite early. So, I came to a main road and decided perhaps I’d better not cross it in case I was seen, so I doubled back in to the field and by this time it was, it was fairly light. Pushed my way back through the hedge and suddenly I realised there was a farmer with a big scythe about to start cutting his crop. So he started shouting, and the next thing I knew some troops were running towards me with rifles, and there was an anti-aircraft gun in the corner of the field so that was it. I capitulated, and was taken into the farmer’s house and he got on the telephone and, and a vehicle arrived and some German troops took me to a German barracks nearby and I was asked for the usual things — name, rank and number and so forth and then locked in a room. And I was pretty tired by this time so I, I went to sleep. Of course I was awakened about 11 o’clock in the morning and given some food which was the last thing I felt like really, but then I was taken to a [pause] I was interrogated by a German officer who then locked me back in the room again and a little later an Air Force officer came and took charge me, and he was quite a pleasant fellow. I think he was probably aircrew and he, he [pause] no I’ve missed a bit out. I was marched by the German Army people down the road and they had six of them, three in front and three behind and I thought it was all rather amusing. I realised afterwards that the troops were really protecting me from the populace not the other way around. But quite a lot of our people had been murdered by civilians and of course the Germans didn’t want to appear in a bad light relative to the Geneva Convection so they were protecting us.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Ernest Davenport
Creator
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Jennifer Barraclough
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-05-23
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADavenportE180523, PDavenportE1801
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Pending review
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00:20:34 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
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Ernest Davenport was born in Tattenhall, Cheshire in 1923. He joined the Local Defence Volunteers in 1940 and after witnessing the bombing of Merseyside he decided to join the RAF as a pilot. He was accepted into the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve and commenced flying training in July 1941 at EFTS at RAF Watchfield. He continued his training in the USA in 1942 and after a slight mishap on landing during a training flight he was sent to Canada for reselection as a navigator. He returned to the UK as a qualified observer which included navigation, bombing and gunnery. He was posted directly to 7 Squadron at RAF Oakington equipped with Stirling bombers, and was told on arrival by his CO, Wing Commander Mahaddie that he would be accepted providing he completed one satisfactory operation. On an operation to Krefeld his aeroplane suffered a fire and the crew were forced to bale out. After burying his parachute in enemy territory he eventually became a prisoner of war.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Wiltshire
Germany--Krefeld
Italy--Turin
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943-02-04
1943-06-21
7 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bomb aimer
bombing
civil defence
Home Guard
observer
Pathfinders
prisoner of war
RAF Oakington
RAF Watchfield
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/768/10769/ADavidsonTA170717.1.mp3
91ab9c07f826cc5c96182de712fc028c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Davidson, Thomas Aiden
T A Davidson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Tom Davidson (b. 1923, 1895266 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 466 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Davidson, TA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RS: Right. So, I just want to make sure that it is working. So, the timer is moving on so we’ll, we’ll make a start then. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. My name is Robb Scott and I’m interviewing Tom Davidson. We’re at Tom’s house at Washington, Tyne and Wear. It’s Monday, the 17th of July 2017 and it is ten past ten in the morning. Tom, first of all thank you very much for agreeing to do this with us this morning. We really do appreciate the time and effort you’re going to take with us today. I’m going to ask you one or two questions and then we want to hear your stories of the war and everything else around that. So, if we could make a start. Fairly straightforward Tom. If you could tell me where and when you were born and a bit about your background before the RAF please.
TD: I was born in Felling, Gateshead 1923. I was an apprentice engineer at Reyrolles, a big heavy engineering firm in Hebburn and war was declared three days after my sixteenth birthday. So I was an apprentice engineer. I’m pleased I’ve been asked to do this recording because it’s something I feel very strongly about. What men and boys and women went through in this country for peace and freedom must never be forgotten. I feel strongly about it because my only brother was killed also. But war is horrible. War is brutal. War is evil. But sadly sometimes war is justified and in my opinion World War Two was. I was just sixteen years and three days when war was declared and although we didn’t have TV or smart phones in those days I was well aware of the atrocities being carried out by Nazi Germany and Hitler’s ultimate aim to conquer Europe and to eliminate anyone who stood in their way or who didn’t match up to the idea of a true German. And in doing so they killed eleven million people. Eleven million men, women and children. At the time I was an apprentice engineer at Reyrolles, who were involved in war work and as such I was classed as being in a Reserved Occupation which meant I could never be conscripted in to any of the Armed Forces or Merchant Navy. Nor could I volunteer for them. I felt strongly that I wanted to do something to defend my country and my loved ones. I did get the chance at the time of Dunkirk when we were being evacuating from Europe. Winston Churchill, Prime Minister at the time appealed for all able bodied men, males rather between sixteen and sixty five to volunteer for the Local Defence Volunteer Force which later became the Home Guard. Better known as Dad’s Army I suppose. So I joined that and was in it until I joined the RAF. As the years went by and there seemed no end to the war due to the heavy losses suffered in Bomber Command the government decreed that men and boys, because you were just boys up to twenty one, in Reserved Occupations could volunteer to train as what we called PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer course. I immediately volunteered for it. I went down to what was known as Burton’s Buildings in Doncaster. Had five days of fitness tests, medical tests and intelligence tests and at the end went in front of an interview panel and I was accepted into the RAF to train as PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. I was given my service number and put on deferred service until there was a training place available. However, at that time the four engine bomber had been introduced and there was an extra crew member was needed. So they created a new category. That of flight engineer, who’d be the pilot’s right hand man. Assist in pre and post flight checks, take-off and landing at the controls, be responsible for all the equipment on board, the pneumatics, electrics, fuel etcetera. And also I had to log the fuel consumption every twenty minutes. I received a request from the Air Ministry to consider training as a flight engineer and I accepted immediately. I reported to the Aircrew Receiving Centre at Lord’s Cricket Ground. We did three weeks there being kitted out. Medical examinations again. Inoculations, etcetera. And then we went on a six week square bashing course, doing aircraft recognition and a little bit of maths and all that sort of thing. And then after seven days leave I was posted to St Athans which was the training school for flight engineers. I’d also like to point out at this time that all aircrew, Bomber Command aircrew were volunteers. Every one of us. I went down to St Athans. Trained as a flight engineer for about seven or eight month and then got my brevet. Flight engineer’s brevet and sergeant’s stripes. Got seven days leave and was posted to what was known as a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall near Selby where we trained with experienced aircrew who’d done, served their tours. And we trained there to become competent flight engineers with experienced crew. And then came the time to be given a crew. So I was, about thirty or forty flight engineers arrived at RAF Acaster Malbis near York. We were there for about two or three days. Lessons I suppose. And we were told this afternoon that we would meet our pilot and meet our crew. An aircrew selection was the most haphazard chaotic system out. They flung all the aircrew into big arenas. Let them mingle together and they sorted a crew of six out first. And it was very successful method despite that. I would say ninety nine point nine percent of the time. And then we were told we would meet our pilot and subsequent crew. And this is true this is. I know it sounds [pause] There were double doors at the end of the room we were in and they were opened and these pilots were crowded in there. And I got my eyes on this pilot and I don’t know why but I thought I hope he comes for me. And sure enough he walked straight across the floor. This is absolutely true. It was like two lovers meeting on a dance floor but there was none of that involved in it. And he came, we had a little bit of a natter and he said, ‘Have you got a pilot?’ I said, ‘No.’ ‘Would you like to be my engineer?’ And I said, ‘Yes. I would.’ And we hit it off from day one. He was a fantastic pilot. Same age as me. We were just, in fact he was three weeks older than me. We were both twenty years of age by then. He was a great skipper. Very skilful. Great captain. Firm but friendly. Determined to get back home to South Australia and kept the crew on their toes. But he was a wonderful, wonderful pilot. Then I met the rest of the crew. Six Aussies. It was a wonderful experience. It turned out we hit it off from day one. We had a wonderful bond formed on that day which lasted well even up ‘til February of this year. I still contacted the crew. Kept in touch with them all. Met them from time to time. Sadly the last one, the rear gunner died in February this year. However, we went back to what was known as a Heavy Conversion Unit where we trained as a crew. And then when we were considered competent we were posted thankfully to an Australian squadron. 466 Squadron based at Driffield. We did further training there. Fighter affil. How to dodge enemy fighters. Fortunately these were Spitfires and Hurricanes we were playing with. Then we were posted as I said on this squadron and we were ready for our first op. A day on a squadron consisted, we reported for duty at 9 o’clock in our particular sections. I went to the engineer’s section to discuss various matters. Maybe evaders. Talking to you. Then at 10 o’clock the dreaded phone would ring and you hoped to hear the engineer leader repeat, ‘Nothing on today. Tonight.’ You knew you had another twenty four hours to live. But invariably it would come through, ‘Operations on today.’ It going to be a daylight. It’s going to be a night operation. And how many aircraft. One of us would go along to the duty room and get the crew roster for the operation, and then you hope your name wasn’t on it but when it was you just had to get on with it. You saw the list and your procedure for that was roughly, as far as I can remember you wrote your last letter. You had your last meal which was always bacon, egg and fried potatoes on the Aussie squadron. And then you went to the briefing room. Find out where your target was and then you sort of put things in order. Emptied your pockets. And then you went out and wait for the crew bus to take you to the parachute room to collect your parachutes and your escape kit. I’d just like to point out the first day I arrived on the squadron I met this lad that had slept in the next bed but one for six month. He was ahead of us on the course and he was going out on his, what was to be his sixth op. We had a meal together. Chatted until he was ready to leave and that was the last I saw of him. They were all killed that night. That was the starter. So to get back to going on our first op. We were in this billet with a crew who were in, going in C-Charlie and I think it was their third or fourth last operation. Some of them knew each other from even from school days. But we were very friendly with them and they said, ‘Stay with us. Stay alongside us.’ It was a daylight raid. ‘You’ll be alright.’ They were in C-Charlie.’ So we boarded. I’d better tell you know because I was asked once, ‘Was I scared?’ And I said, ‘No.’ And I was asked again, ‘You weren’t scared?’ And I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘I was bloody terrified,’ I said, ‘We all were.’ However, amazing thing was when I put the key in the plane to open up fear left you and your training took over because you had to concentrate every second. You had to have utter trust in your comrades and the crew and we were a good crew although I say it myself. We had, Pat insisted on us doubling up on different tasks. You know, I used to do, have a go in the rear turret and on the wireless just in case any of us weren’t available either through death or injury. So he, but he was a good skipper as I keep repeating. We set off. Took off for a raid on Sterkrade which was a raid I think it was synthetic oil plant, or a synthetic chemical plant. There were six hundred bombers that day. About thirty or forty mile from the target I saw this big black thing in the sky. I thought we’ve never been told about that and I hadn’t been on those tours over that part of the world to know what it was. But as you approached it was what was called a box barrage. Certain times Jerry threw up in a certain area and certain height everything they could. And I thought, well that’s stupid. We’ll just fly around it. But you didn’t. You were in the RAF. You had to stick to your flight path and the bombing run. And then we saw the planes getting hit. It was, it was a hell of a day that day. Anyway, C-Charlie was just ahead of us on our starboard side. I saw it get hit and smoke and flames coming out of it and I saw two crew jump out and a parachute open. But the third one must have jumped into a burst of flak because I just saw half. You know, a torso going past me. And then the plane setting on fire and burst into flames and exploded. And they were only, there were two didn’t get out. Six jumped out but two didn’t get out. Anyway, the next thing I knew was I saw the wireless operator crawling from his position which he didn’t have to leave over the target area. I switched my intercom on and said, ‘Pat, what’s the matter with Nev.’ and Pat, we went by Christian names although there was no idle chat on the intercom. He said, ‘Tom, are you alright? I’ve been trying to get you for five minutes.’ He said, ‘Is the port inner alright?’ And I looked and I said, ‘Yes.’ I looked again and said, ‘No.’ The red light was flashing. We’d actually been hit. So I told him to feather the engine to prevent fire or the propeller shearing off. I was actually sitting on top of the oxygen bottles and I had been physically sick. Whether it was with fear or shock or both I don’t know. But I saw, I think I was the only member of the crew that saw everything. Anyway, we carried on. Dropped our bomb load. Set off and of course well it left us stragglers behind all the other bombers. I thought every fighter in the Luftwaffe would be after us. But as we approached the North Sea and that there was about six Hurricanes. There was a few of us straggling. Picked us up until we got back to the UK. We landed that day. I remember when I jumped on the ground I thought God, I’ll never do it. Survive another twenty nine of these. However, we went for debriefing and that night I remember, I wouldn’t call it a dream, I think it was more a nightmare. I was driving to an RAF station, Usworth in a little RAF van. I was lying on the floor. The roof of the van was coming down on me and I woke up shouting, ‘I want to be out. I want to be out.’ I don’t think I was talking about I wanted to be out of the car. I think I wanted to be out of Bomber Command. But that was it. I had a few but never mind. We survived. Just to go back to C-Charlie. The flight engineer. They called him Peter Jack from Dumfries. We had our last meal together and he told me he was engaged to a girl just a few mile from where we lived. I think it was Willington Quay on Tyneside. He was expecting a silk scarf from her. Anyway, when we, the next morning when we went in the mess I saw where our letters and correspondence were kept and I saw this little brown parcel. Sergeant Jack. It was his silk scarf. There is a happy ending to that one which I’ll talk about later on. I’ll stick to the action. We went on many raids after that. We had some very scary moments. Some of them in this country. Not all. So, I’ll tell you some stories. Not in any particular order. But contrary to what I think is common belief we didn’t just drop randomly or anywhere. Every target, and we did thirty six, every target we did was either military or industrial. You took photographs of where your bombs would land and if you had too many misses, we, we didn’t, we were lucky in that respect. Our bomb aimer had been a flying, a bombing instructor. He was a flying officer. But if you did miss your target you had to what was known as an orbit. We had to do it two or three times being chased by fighters or searchlights and you had, which meant you had to climb with the full bomb load, do a full, outside of the bomber stream outside and that, if there was six or seven hundred, well it was a thousand at one time it was like driving up the, the M1 on the wrong side of the motorway with no lights on at night. A hell of an experience. We did it, as I say three times. We took, it was mainly when we’d been taking evasive action from either fighters or searchlights and you had to get onto your bombing run. Searchlights, although they couldn’t do you any damage were the most terrifying I found out. I thought it was just me but I’ve read about them and spoken to aircrews who felt the same. It was terrifying if they, what they called the master cone got on you. It was the blue one. Within seconds you’d get twenty or thirty searchlights on you. It lit you up and you just, that was it. We were caught twice, and again through Pat’s skill we got out of it but a most frightening experience. And you may have heard of the expression he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day. Well, we bomber boys did that for two reasons. The first, well one reason was we had peashooters. 303s. Which were about I don’t know how many millimetres that is but roughly over a quarter of an inch. About seven millimetre peashooters. They had twenty millimetre cannon shells which shattering, were shattering the aircraft metal plates. And the second one was our range was, gunner’s range was four hundred yards. Theirs was up to about twelve hundred yards. So they had you in target long before we could do any damage. So the pilot had to do an evasive action which was called a corkscrew. And this is where the trust and confidence in crew members came in. At the crucial moment you would shout to the pilot, ‘Corkscrew. Corkscrew port,’ or, ‘Corkscrew starboard. Go.’ At the critical moment Pat would go into a dive and corkscrew. It was critical because if you went too soon they could veer off and chase you and if you called it too late well it was too late and you’d had your chips then, you know. So it was very critical that. It wasn’t a very welcome experience. G factor came into it a lot. But the Pathfinders were the ones who were down below. They would mark the target with target indicators. And if the winds or anything varied it they would just call out instructions to bomb somewhere to the left or the right of it. But it was very, very critical. They did a great job the Pathfinders. Two other hazards which you visit, visited and saw night after night was collisions between our own aircraft and bombs dropped. That was something really we had a great fear of was collisions because when you’re in cloud, particular at night and you know there’s four, five, six, seven hundred bombers there. You can’t see them but you knew they were there. It wasn’t a pleasant experience. But we got through it. We set off one evening which would have been a nine to ten hour trip deep into Germany. Chemnitz. And we were fitted with an extra petrol, fuel tanks. We dropped our load and making for home but we lost this extra tank. I used to do the fuel consumption every twenty minutes and I calculated on this occasion we were coming home from this flight we were going to run out of fuel before we got to the English Coast. So I told Pat these details. I said, ‘We’ll have to find, see if there’s a suitable aerodrome in the north of France we can land at.’ And I don’t want to do the Aussies any disrespect because I love them. Love them very, very much. But someone suggested we make for near Brighton. There were plenty of airfields there. Brighton was a Reception Centre for the Aussies when they came over and probably had happy memories there. But I said to Pat, ‘Pat, if we, if you try to make it for the UK I’ll be jumping out before we leave the French coast.’ However, again he trusted my calculations and we had a heck of a job finding a suitable aerodrome. We did find one at Juvencourt. It was an American one actually. It wasn’t in good working order but we managed to land at night and we landed and two engines cut out and the rest cut out. This is in the Australian War Museum Archives. It’s a true story. And it’s not often I could get Aussies to eat humble pie but they did on that occasion. Another nasty experience was we’d been warned for several ops that we may get intruders. You know, German fighters coming back with the bomber stream. On this occasion I was back changing the tanks over and I was off the intercom. And we had a set procedure when we landed, the pilot and I. And the crew just make for the exits and running out, jumping out making for a slit trench. Fortunately, I was the last one to get in. We’d been told there had been intruders at certain heights and they were just strafing the aerodrome. There was a slit trench near the parking bay where we were and we dived into that. Some of them squealed. I thought they’d been hit but as they told us later the ground crew used that as a toilet. Three of them. Well, you could say they landed in a mess but I was alright. But they strafed the ‘drome for about an hour and a half and we lost two that night over the aerodrome. Four of them were killed in one aircraft. They were in our billet. And they were losing height and the navigator came to the exit and the engineer was stood there. He was afraid to jump. The navigator was trying to push him out, you know. Getting. But he wouldn’t go so the navigator eventually jumped out. Sadly the engineer changed his mind and jumped out but it was too late so there were only two survivors from that one, you know. Another dodgy landing happened to us one night when they were trying a new, it was a brilliant light system which we used when it was very dark and that. Foggy. And when we came in to land we were the third aircraft down. The two previous ones had just hit the end of the runway. Unfortunately, before the flight commander could get the lights turned off and the original ones put on we touched down well short of the runway and there was a blinding flash and I thought we’d crashed into a forest nearby. But Pat managed to gain height and what had actually happened we’d gone through telegraph wires that had ripped the side of the fuselage, caught the bomb aimer from just outside his eye and ripped his side of his face open. And we were very very lucky to get through but again Pat’s strength got us through that one. Another very scary incident which happened in the UK was when we’d taken, when we were going on a morning op to Duisburg. We’d been having trouble with the starboard inner engine. Been out with the ground crew and that. But you didn’t like to call your operations off plus the fact you wanted to get through your tour. So we took her on a test flight. It was ok. Anyway, the time comes to take off. To set off. We were setting off to Duisburg and I was standing watching the panel to make sure that the dodgy engine wouldn’t let us down. So we got on to the runway. Got the ok to take off. Got the green light to take off and Pat set off along the runway to take off. And then I just saw the revs drop on the port inner. I yelled to Pat to abort take-off. Abort the take-off, which he did and it cut out. The port inner engine cut out. We swung off the runway. Bomb. Full bomb load but thankfully I’m telling this tale because the bombs didn’t go off. But that was very, very scary indeed but it just another case of trusting each other’s competence.
[pause]
Although we were all volunteers in Bomber Command aircrew and could at any time say we didn’t want to fly any more we’d be taken off flying duties immediately. We’d go in front of a tribunal. And in my case if I had decided I’d have been reduced to an AC2, discharged from the RAF with my documents stamped with big LMF. Lack of Moral Fibre. And then I would have been discharged from the RAF and sent back home. Gone back to my, finish my apprentice in the engineering company. It did happen on very, very rare occasions. I think there was about, out of two hundred and odd crews you’re talking seven times that. About four in our squadron. I remember one was an engineer and one was an Aussie pilot. I remember those two in particular. But even if I thought about it I would never have done it. I couldn’t do it. I still felt strongly even though I was married to the love of my life and my brother Frankie had, who was also a flight engineer had been killed on his first operation. I still felt the job had to be done. And I’m pleased I had the courage to stay in and not come out. A couple of stories which might be of interest. When we did these long flights into Germany it was suggested or advised even that if we got into trouble it might be better to make for North Africa rather than trying to reach the English Coast. So on these occasions and it happened to us on about four or five occasions we were given what was known by the rank and file as goolie chits. Because at the time there was a barbaric custom in Africa, North Africa whereby when, and this was from the 1920s and as far as I know the nineteen, early ‘50s it was still prevalent. If an aviator landed his private parts were cut off and sewn in his mouth. And although the reward was in Arabic, if this person, aviator, I can’t remember what it said now was handed in intact they would be rewarded with twenty five pound which had probably made them millionaire’s overnight. But it was always my greatest fear that I’d be found by an Arab who couldn’t read who had a dirty pair of garden secateurs in his hand. And the fear of that I think put us all off. We never tried to land in Africa [laughs] and to my mind, but it could have happened I don’t think many would have welcomed that opportunity to be castrated. But there you are. That was one story. Another just on a light hearted note was, concerns my wonderful wife Mary. I had this photograph in my locker and when I was going on ops I used to pick it up, give it a kiss, turn it and face the door and when I got to the door I used to turn around to say words to the effect, ‘I hope I come back to see you again, Mary.’ Which I did on thirty six occasions. We went on to have a wonderful life together. We’d been on our squadron I think when they brought the troops over they put extra cakes and rations in because we did very well and they had, they loved their fruitcake. Especially when they’d been out on the town or the village and they liked their hot cocoa and fruit cake. So I, in my daily letter to Mary I asked her this time if there was any chance of her making a fruit cake to bring back to the camp. She was at the time, she was an apprentice also at a ladies tailoress and dressmaker. Never done any cooking in life. Anyway, I brought it back and it was in a tin which she used to keep her best handkerchiefs in because there were no tissues in those days. And she kept her best silk handkerchiefs in this small round biscuit tin. Anyway, we came back this night and one of the crew said, because they’d all met Mary, the crew and I was the only married one in the crew, ‘What about Mary’s cake.’ So I got the cake out of the nice tin. Cut a piece off and I remember, I remember handing it to Bluey, our mid-upper gunner. I cut the other, another piece off to give to one of the crew. As I’m just about to hand that out Bluey shouts, ‘Tom,’ he says, ‘What the hell is in this? He says, ‘Taste it.’ I took a bite of it and it was [pause] well Mary I’m sorry I won’t say too much about it but it wasn’t pleasant. So one of them said, ‘Put it back in the tin,’ bearing in mind they’re Aussies, ‘Put it back in the tin and we’ll drop it over Germany. If it doesn’t kill them when it hits them on the head it will when they eat it.’ So it went back in the tin. We fastened it up as best we could and when I was operating our on the next trip, operating the Window chute, dropping the window down the window chute I got Mary’s tin with the cake and dropped it out. What happened to it we don’t know but Mary used to say it was her humanitarian effort to help the poor starving Germans. So I’ll take it on Mary’s word but it did actually happen. Coming back to Peter Jack, the engineer on C-Charlie who was shot down on our first op. After the war in one of the main streets in Newcastle I was standing outside this silk material shop. Mary, as I said Mary was a dressmaker. She was inside getting material and I was standing out in the main street and I saw this warrant officer walking up on the other side of the road but I didn’t pay much attention. And then he walked over towards me and it was Peter Jack. He’d been the only survivor of the crew. There was two who didn’t make it. They had a spare dickie. A spare dickie was a rookie pilot who, to get experience did his, did a flight just by himself with another crew to get the feeling of a raid. Two of them blew up with the plane. Six of them got out. One I saw with just a torso. And the only one that was taken prisoner was Peter. We don’t know exactly what happened to the other crew but I’ve a fair idea. And Peter did marry his fiancé from Tyneside. There was another peculiar, strange, unbelievable incident happened to one of our crew. One of our crew members. Pilot Joe Herman. We were on the same raid with them and they got hit very badly. Fires on, and baling out. Well, in our aircraft I used to stand with, the pilot couldn’t put the ‘chute on but the rest of the crew could. So I used to stand over the target area with the pilot’s parachute ready to hand to him. But on Joe Herman’s I don’t know what happened that night. The engineer was probably they reckon putting, trying to put a fire out. But his mid-upper gunner was standing with his parachute up. They all baled out except Joe and the pilot and then the plane blew up. And they were at seventeen thousand feet evidently. Joe has no parachute. He’s coming down. He sees something glistening, grabs it, this thing lets out a terrific scream. Yelling. It was his mid-upper gunner and he’d grabbed his legs and unfortunately one of them was broken. But thank God they both landed together. They were both badly injured but they survived and lived to their nineties. One of them, I think the gunner was killed in a motorbike accident but Joe survived right to the nineties. He was in a hell of a mess but, you know he survived. All that time there was that fear but as I mentioned earlier on your training. And it, it was, it happened to all of us, our training took over and you knew you had to concentrate for your survival and your crew. You wanted to come home every night. The fear left you. It probably came back over the target area but it was just something we had to face night after night. But as I keep repeatedly saying it had to be done. It just had to be done despite all the fifty percent loss of aircrew. And to come back to my brother he was shot down on 18th 19th of November 1943 and they didn’t find the remains until November 1947. They were reburied in Rheinberg Cemetery. But every time his wife went out for those four years, four lonely years she used to leave a place setting for him and a little note where she was going and the time she’d come back. And she did that even after she got notification that they had found his grave. It affected her mentally. It was a shame. She was a schoolteacher. And that was a tragedy of war. So I finished my tour and I’ll just quote if I may what my pilot wrote the day after. These are my pilot’s words, Pat Gillis. “The worst part of my story has now arrived as we would most likely be sent in different directions.” This was at the end of his tour. “As a crew we all realised just how lucky we were to have completed a tour of operations and still be in one piece. It was a miracle. As the captain of this crew I can say that the dedication each one of my crew showed in each of their duties they had to perform in their positions was A1. We were able to discuss so many problems put to us and then come up with the answers. It made my position as captain easier to consider and make all the final decisions. It is hard to imagine that a crew made of men, or at that time boys from three states of Australia and one from England could mould together and work so well as one team. It was a sad experience when we all split up and sent on leave. The six Australians were sent on extended leave which meant that every day we had to contact Driffield to find out whether we had been posted or leave extended. Tom Davidson our English flight engineer was taken back in to the RAF after being on loan to our Australian squadron of the RAF.” I’d like to go back to my first operation. When we touched down, as I said, I didn’t think I could make another twenty nine but I made another thirty six. But when you looked at the damage on the aircraft the size of the hole was about the size of house door in the port wing. How it missed all the controls, the electrics, the fuel, the hydraulics was nothing short of a miracle. And the next day the ground staff counted thirty three flak holes in the aircraft. This happened, of course you know on a regular basis. We got hit nearly every night. Some nights we were unscathed but most nights we had flak damage, some more severe than others and yet we were so so fortunate on the thirty six trips never touched any of the crew, never touched any of the controls. Which brings us around to talking about our pilot, Pat. We always considered him to be the best pilot on the squadron. As probably every other crew did with their pilot. But we felt we were the only ones who were right. At an ANZAC reunion two year ago at the old squadron at Driffield I was told by a historian, squadron historian that Pat was classed as being in the top five pilots on the squadron. Well, we had over two hundred pilots which put him in the top two and a half percent. But in our opinion, certainly in my opinion he was in the top one percent. He was a fantastic pilot. I kept in touch with him until he died and his wife, Peg. Now, I’m in touch with two of the family and we’ve met from time to time. And also I’m in touch with the rear gunner’s family. The rear gunner, sadly Bill died in February this year but I’m still in touch with his family. We had a great bond. It’s an experience I’ll ever forget. I don’t dwell on it. It’s only the last few years my oldest grandson got me to talk about it. But if I can just say at Remembrance time each year and I give a reading and place a wreath at our village Memorial Service about three or four days before Remembrance Day I cry a lot. A lot of memories come flooding back which I never think about really from one year’s end to another. But it’s not something. I’ve had a very very happy life. Wonderful seventy years with my marriage with my beloved Mary. And when I was finished with Driffield I was posted to an RAF station, but a Free French Air Force Training Unit up at Lossiemouth. It was a bit scary with them not always speaking English. Sometimes they broke into their French and we had a few accidents up there. Not communicating properly with the flight control. After that I was posted out to Egypt. But I was flown home on a compassionate. I asked for compassionate leave because our oldest son Peter who was only six months at the time wasn’t expected to survive bronchial pneumonia. But they flew me home on a compassionate posting. And although he was given up twice he survived it thanks to penicillin and he is now seventy, seventy two years of age this year. And then I was given a compassionate posting near home. And then before I was demobbed I was, went down to RAF Catterick to be advised on what we should do after, after demob and after four days testing, exams and all that I was advised to either go in for teaching or Civil Service. But in those days having grown up in a depressed area in Tyneside. Grew up during the Depression. Having an apprenticeship was a wonderful achievement and the thought of losing that if I didn’t complete it and not having a job, I didn’t have the courage to take up either of these suggestions. However, I finished my apprenticeship. Had a wonderful life. And I did eventually get qualifications teaching and finished up as an engineering lecturer. So I’ve had no regrets in life. I’ve had a wonderful life. My wonderful Mary and our three children, grandchildren. A very very rich life. Lucky to have survived. So I think that’s the end of my wartime experiences in the RAF. One of the lucky fifty percent who survived.
RS: Well, Tom. Thank you. That was very, very moving and a privilege for me to sit and hear. So thank you very much indeed for that. Before I end the recording is there anything else you want to talk about? Is there anything else that maybe has jogged your memory while you’ve been talking?
[pause]
TD: Just I think the bond that was forged between the crew members and particularly our crew was just something that I’ll never experience again. Our life depended so much on each other. Our trust in our efficiency and competence. But they were just a great bunch of lads. We got on so well from day one. I used to say I was, the number one crew in Bomber Command were lucky to have the number one flight engineer with them, you know. Such a great crowd. I’m only joking when I say that but it’s true [laughs] No. No. I think that’s about all, Rob. I could go on for quite some time but they are the relevant points to my experience. The things that matter. Things that affected me. But I’ve never suffered from what I saw. I think I’ve written about the things I won’t tell anyone. Not even my family. But I joined up to do it and we did it and that was it. I think that’s about all. And thank you so much for putting up with me telling that.
RS: Well, thank you very much, Tom. It’s now quarter past eleven and we’ll terminate the interview there. Thank you very much, Tom.
TD: Thank you, Rob. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Thomas Aiden Davidson
Creator
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Rob Scott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADavidsonTA170717
Format
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00:46:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Gateshead, Thomas was an apprentice railroad engineer. With the war beginning three days after his 16th birthday, Thomas feels very passionately about the British experience of the Second World War, as his only brother was killed. He claims to have been very aware of the atrocities of the Nazi regime and was inspired to volunteer, despite being in a reserved occupation. He joined Bomber Command following the introduction of four-engine bombers, creating the flight engineer job role, of which he trained for. Training at RAF St Athans for six weeks, he completed his Heavy Conversion Unit course at RAF Riccall, eventually joining a crew of Australians. Placed on 466 Squadron at RAF Driffield, he recalls pre-operations activities crew used to partake in, including last meals, chatting, and briefings. He states that he and his crew were entirely terrified until they got onto the aircraft, in which their mutual trust took over their fear. He recounts seeing several aircraft being hit on his first operation, with many having people he knew in them. He recalls having nightmares after his operations, alongside several near-death experiences, both on operations and around the airfield. He continues to explain the culture surrounding leaving the RAF, including the fear surrounding Lack of Morale Fibre and why he choose to carry on. Thomas recalls rarely talking of his experience and that it was only recently in which he opened up about the war. He believes that he was lucky to have survived but states that he continues to remember those who have passed away during remembrance days. He believes that he and his crew had a fantastic bond and that was the most important experience of the war.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1943-11-18
1943-11-19
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
466 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
fear
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
home front
Home Guard
lack of moral fibre
military ethos
perception of bombing war
RAF Driffield
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
searchlight
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/817/10800/PFawcettK1701.2.jpg
687b0968eb23c82bd9e8d7d593d8a53b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/817/10800/AFawcettK170926.2.mp3
0e974eecf09d6a19823e3903c4fcb309
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fawcett, Ken
K Fawcett
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ken Fawcett. He flew operations as an air gunner with 617 and 227 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Fawcett, K
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mr Kenneth Fawcett at his home on the 26th of September 2017. I’ll just put that there. What I’ll do is if I —
KF: Switch it on and off.
DK: Yeah. I can switch it on and off.
KF: Yeah.
DK: And if I’m looking down I’m just making sure it’s still working. Ok. Ok, what [pause] just having a look at the, at your bits here I’m just wondering if we could go back a bit and just ask you what were you doing immediately before the war?
KF: I was working with the Post Office.
DK: Right. So what made you then want to join the RAF?
KF: Because I didn’t want to be called up to the Army or the Navy. Is this on?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
KF: Sorry.
DK: No. That’s ok. That’s ok.
KF: During the wartime you were called up at eighteen. If you didn’t make any preference beforehand you were posted to either, you could go in the Bevan boys which were the miners.
DK: The miners. Yeah.
KF: You could go in the Army, the Navy or the Air Force. If you volunteered for any particular job then you could take that as, in your choice. So a number of us, six of us went off to the Recruiting Centre and made our choices. Three of us joined the RAF as aircrew. Two joined the Navy. And one joined the Army.
DK: And were these six, were they your friends then were they?
KF: They were all my working colleagues.
DK: Working colleagues from, from the Post Office.
KF: From the Post Office.
DK: Right.
KF: And we were then, having made our choices we were left to be called up eventually as we got nearer to eighteen.
DK: And then what happened then? Did you have to go off for your initial training somewhere? Or —
KF: Well, you were called up eventually.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And then you were posted to, I joined up at the Lords Cricket Ground in London.
DK: Yes. Yeah. I know it well.
KF: Do you?
DK: Yeah.
KF: That was an ACRC Recruiting Centre.
DK: Alright.
KF: And you went down there and you were billeted in the empty luxury flats in the area.
DK: Right.
KF: And we dined at the zoo restaurant.
DK: Right. Yes. Yeah.
KF: In Regent’s Park.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And then from there you went on through the courses.
DK: So what was it like then? Was this, would this have been the first time you’d left home or —
KF: Yes. Yeah.
DK: So after your initial at Lords Cricket Ground where did you go on to after that?
KF: You were then sent to 17 ITW at Bridlington.
DK: Right.
KF: Which was like a, an introduction to the, you did the square bashing.
DK: Square bashing.
KF: And kitting out and one thing and another.
DK: What did you think of the square bashing?
KF: Came naturally because I’d already done two and a half years in the Home Guard.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
KF: So that was, I joined the Home Guard when I was sixteen. And at seventeen, eighteen and, seventeen, eighteen and a half you were called up.
DK: Right. And what year would that have been?
KF: ’43.
DK: ’43. Yeah.
KF: September ’43.
DK: So, after Bridlington where did you go on to then?
KF: After Bridlington went to Northern Ireland.
DK: Oh right.
KF: Which was the Air Gunnery School.
DK: Right.
KF: And —
DK: So, by this time they’d already decided what trade you were going to be in.
KF: No. That was decided for you at, at the Doncaster Recruiting Centre.
DK: Right.
KF: I had to go for PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer.
DK: Right.
KF: And then while I was waiting for call up I realised or I found out that to become a pilot was a two year course and being ’43 and being eighteen and naive I wrote to them and asked them for to reassign me to the shortest course which was air gunnery.
DK: Right.
KF: Because at that time I had ambition to get in the war.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Stupidly. But so they did and of course I got called up to go to a Gunnery School.
DK: Right.
KF: So Northern Ireland. Bishop’s Court —
DK: Right.
KF: Was an Air Gunnery School with Ansons.
DK: Right. So, when you got to the Ansons then would that have been the first time you’d actually —
KF: Flown.
DK: Actually flown.
KF: Fascinating really. Because what they did was they took seven pupils up in an Anson and I was fortunate to get the co-pilot’s seat.
DK: Right.
KF: And in the Anson the pilot said, ‘There’s a handle down by the side of your seat.’ You know it do you? And he said, ‘You wind it up and you watch the lights and when they turn green we’ve got them locked.’
DK: Can you remember how many times you had to turn the —
KF: About a hundred. And of course I’m down here winding this and looking at the lights and by the time we I looked up we were about a thousand feet up in the air. So I never saw my first —
DK: Take-off.
KF: Take-off.
DK: Oh no.
KF: But it was interesting.
DK: So, what did you think of the Anson then? Was that [unclear]
KF: It was, it was interesting because it was my first flying and funnily enough I, we used to get kitted out with a flying suit and parachute and I said to the instructor one day, ‘You never bring a parachute. Why is that?’ He said, ‘I’ll tell you, son,’ he said, ‘If you jumped out at this height you’d never survive.’ So we were always down time taking parachutes. But that was only an aside, you know.
DK: So what would you, at the Gunnery School then were you introduced to the gun? The guns you were going to be using before the first flight.
KF: Yeah. You had to learn all the parts of the gun.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And you had to be able to strip a gun down and reassemble it.
DK: So, can you remember what type of weapons they were?
KF: It was a Browning 303.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Air cooled. And the Anson had a gun turret on.
DK: Right.
KF: And you took your turn in the gun turret and the ammunition belt had been tipped. The bullets had been tipped with paint of different colours.
DK: Right.
KF: So that you may be designated the blue tips. And when you fired at a drogue that was being flown by another aircraft, when the drogue was taken to the ground and counting the holes in the drogue the blue paints would show up and you’d be credited with those hits.
DK: Yeah. Was it something that came naturally to you?
KF: Well, being in the Home Guard for two years I’d been firing Bren guns and Thompson sub-machine guns and throwing grenades and, and anti-tank mortars. So, you know at sixteen and seventeen we were playing soldiers anyway.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So with ammunition and firing it became second nature.
DK: So, after the Gunnery School then where did you go on to next?
KF: That’s what I got this for.
DK: Ah. Say for the tape that’s your force’s logbook —
KF: Sorry.
DK: That’s ok.
KF: Bridlington. Oh yes. Bridgnorth. 1650 Conversion. No. Number 1, Elementary Air Gunnery School at Bridgnorth in Shropshire.
DK: Right. So that was more advanced.
KF: That was more advanced training. More square bashing. More fatigues and what have you.
DK: Right. And what aircraft were based there? Was that —
KF: No. There was no flying there.
DK: Oh right. Ok. So it was purely just gunnery training.
KF: In fact, I think I’ve got these the wrong way around. It was London, Bridlington, Bridgnorth and then [pause] yeah. I haven’t got them in order. 12 Air Gunnery School. 17 OTU. That was at Silverstone. So, yeah. We did Bridgnorth and then [pause] That’s right. Bridgnorth and then Silverstone.
DK: Right.
KF: 17 OTU.
DK: Right. So, Bridgnorth first. Then Silverstone.
KF: Yeah.
DK: And that was 17 Operational Training Unit.
KF: Right.
DK: Right. And, and is that where you would have met your crew then? All the rest of your crew.
KF: We were taken to a station in the Midlands. I forget the name of the one. And you were taken into an assembly room and there were twenty pilots, twenty navigators, forty gunners because there are two gunners to a crew.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And twenty wireless operators. And the pilots were told to wander around and go to each trade and select a member of a crew. If a pilot approached you and asked you and you didn’t like the look of him you could say no. If you liked him you’d say yes and then he would go on to find a wireless operator or the, whatever crew he hadn’t yet selected.
DK: And this was all mixed together regardless of rank.
KF: Yeah. Completely.
DK: And just by trade.
KF: And you were entirely free to say yes or no to the guy.
DK: How did you think that worked? Because it’s quite unusual in the military. It seems a very relaxed way of —
KF: Oh, it was. It was unique to the military. Instead of being told you would do this or that you were given the choice because I think in the sense that if your life was on the line and you didn’t like the guy you were going to have to live with you were given the option of declining. Although face to face it’s a first instinct. If you sort of, it’s an attitude when you first meet somebody.
DK: Yes.
KF: You have a feeling.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And this fella came along in dark blue because the Australians were, were in dark blue uniform whereas we were in light blue. And he came along and asked if I cared to join his crew. I looked at him and he had his Australian colleague with him who was the wireless operator and I just thought oh it’s different. ‘Yeah. Ok.’
DK: Ok. Just for the tape can you remember their names?
KF: Yeah. Ken Allen.
DK: Ken Allen was the pilot.
KF: Was the pilot.
DK: Yeah. And —
KF: And he was from Melbourne in Australia.
DK: And the wireless operator?
KF: And the wireless operator was a Bill Eudey.
DK: Right.
KF: He was Australian. He was from Melbourne.
DK: Right.
KF: And the pilot at that time was a flight sergeant.
DK: Right.
KF: He subsequently got promoted to commissioned rank.
DK: Right. And can you remember the name of the second gunner that joined your crew?
KF: Yeah. Mike Clegg. Mike Clegg from [pause] Rotherham.
DK: Right.
KF: In Yorkshire.
DK: We’re missing one. Is the other one the navigator?
KF: The navigator was a guy from London. But subsequently we lost him because he couldn’t keep up with the training.
DK: Oh. Ok.
KF: So we had a different navigator when we eventually went on to ops.
DK: And can you remember his name?
KF: His name was —
DK: We can come back to it. It’s alright.
KF: Yeah. I’m looking. Where’s the photograph?
DK: Is he there?
KF: No. That’s, that’s have you got this to switch off or not?
DK: Yeah. I can pause it. It’s ok.
[recording paused]
DK: Right. So looking at the photograph here from right to left.
KF: Mike Clegg.
DK: Mike Clegg. Yeah.
KF: That was the navigator.
DK: Yeah.
KF: He was from Preston. That was the flight engineer. Ken Mepham from Manchester.
DK: Ken.
KF: Mepham.
DK: Mepham. Yeah.
KF: That was the second bomb aimer because that first bomb aimer Kirk Kent.
DK: Right.
KF: Had a nervous breakdown during the course of the ops.
DK: Oh. Ok.
KF: So he came back with the photograph.
DK: Right.
KF: But he was on our twenty seventh op.
DK: Right.
KF: So he did twenty six and then he did twenty seven to thirty six. That was Bill Eudey, the Australian wireless operator.
DK: Right.
KF: Ground crew. Ground crew. Ground crew. And myself.
DK: And who’s that down there?
KF: That’s the pilot.
DK: That’s the pilot. And the pilot’s name?
KF: Ken Allen.
DK: Ken Allen. So these are two bomb aimers then. That one and that one
KF: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And he had a nervous breakdown.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Right.
KF: He was on the train going home on leave. He was on the train and had a collapse on the train. So he was off then for several weeks.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And then we finished our tour while he was having hospital treatment.
DK: Right. With, with the replacement bomb aimer.
KF: With, yeah.
DK: Right. Ok. So if I could just take you back to the Operational Training Unit then. Number 17.
KF: 17 OTU.
DK: 17 OTU.
KF: Silverstone.
DK: So what type of aircraft were you training on then?
KF: Wellingtons. Twin engine Wellingtons.
DK: And what did you think of the Wellington as a, as an aircraft?
KF: We went from Silverstone. We were there for a week and then we were sent to Turweston, which was the satellite airfield where there were also Wellingtons. On the morning we arrived, about 11 o’clock we went to the mess. We had lunch. We came out and we were going up to the flights and it was in a lane and we heard a Wellington landing. So we went to a gap in the hedge, watched the Wellington land and take off again on circuits and bumps.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And sadly the pilot pulled the plane up too steeply, stalled and crashed. So our first sight of a Wellington was one coming down on its tail and all eleven onboard were killed.
DK: That was —
KF: So we, we looked at the pilot and thought how clever is he?
DK: That must have made you all a bit nervous about what was to come.
KF: Well, you didn’t get nervous really. You just simply thought well, but that was the first we’d saw of the Wellington. You know.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Anyway, we, we eventually did some of the training there. Then we were sent back to Silverstone to complete the training.
DK: Right.
KF: So each trade was working with the pilot as a student pilot.
DK: Right.
KF: With a trainee, with a instructor alongside.
DK: So you’d have the instructor pilot, your pilot as trainee and the rest of the crew there.
KF: That’s right.
DK: So had you decided which gun position you were going to take?
KF: Well, on the, on the Wellington there was only a rear turret.
DK: Right.
KF: There was no mid-upper turret. And we weren’t particularly designated to any particular one. So throughout the tour we used to switch.
DK: Right.
KF: Sometimes I’d go in the mid upper turret. Sometimes I’d go in the rear turret.
DK: So this training then at the OTU that was mostly circuit and bumps.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Cross country.
KF: Yeah. Yeah. It was mostly really for bomb aiming when the Wellington would fly over the predetermined bombing range on the, on the coast. Used to fly out to the coast at Lincoln.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And near the Wash somewhere. And the bomb aimer would then drop the practice bombs and he would get a qualification depending how good he was.
DK: And at this point can you remember were you beginning to feel confident with your crew? Or were you beginning to gel and —
KF: Oh yes. You got on very well. If you hadn’t got on well you would apply for a move.
DK: Right.
KF: But no. We all got on fine and eventually you did everything as a crew. When you went to the pub you all went together. And when you went for a meal you all went together. Basically.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But your crew because your lives depended on each other you became quite associated with one another.
DK: So after the OTU then where did you go on to then?
KF: Lanc Finishing School.
DK: Right.
KF: Where the pilot was particularly trained to switch from twin engine to four engine.
DK: And would that be the point when your flight engineer joined you?
KF: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
KF: No. Sorry. There was, before the Lanc Finishing School there was an OT.
DK: It was at the Heavy Conversion Unit.
KF: That’s right. Yeah. Convert. Conversion Unit.
DK: Can you remember which Heavy Conversion Unit it was?
KF: Wigsley, Wigsley.
DK: Wigsley. Yeah.
KF: Yeah. And —
DK: And was that —
KF: That was the conversion from twin engine to four engine.
DK: Right.
KF: And then from there we went to the Lanc Finishing School to give the pilot training from radial engine to Lancaster.
DK: So, at the Heavy Conversion Unit what four engine bombers —
KF: Stirling.
DK: Stirlings. Right. Ok. And what did you think of the Stirling?
KF: Well, not being the pilot particularly, we were passengers.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So each aircraft didn’t matter to us particularly.
DK: Yeah.
KF: As gunners.
DK: And on the Stirling did you train in the mid-upper and the rear turret?
KF: Yeah. There was the mid upper and rear.
DK: Yeah. So after the Heavy Conversion Unit on Stirlings you then went to the Lancaster Finishing School.
KF: The Lanc Finishing School.
DK: For the pilot. For the Lancaster.
KF: That’s right. For the pilot to convert.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And I’m not sure what stage, before Lanc Finishing School or after you were posted to a particular group.
DK: Right.
KF: And we were fortunate in the sense that we were posted 5 Group which was considered the elite group of the Bomber Command.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: Because 5 Group was at Grantham.
DK: Yeah.
KF: With —
DK: Ralph Cochrane.
KF: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Yeah
KF: Yeah.
DK: So you were quite pleased about that then, were you? Did they —
KF: Oh yes. Yeah.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Because to be sent on the Lancaster as opposed to the Halifax.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Because you know the Halifax was slower and it was more vulnerable. So to get on to Lancasters we were quite happy.
DK: And then your first squadron was?
KF: First?
DK: Your first squadron.
KF: 619 Squadron.
DK: Yeah.
KF: At Dunholme Lodge.
DK: Dunholme Lodge.
KF: Just outside Lincoln.
DK: Yeah.
KF: It’s now a school. I think.
DK: Yeah. I actually drove through there quite recently.
KF: Did you?
DK: it’s all farms now.
KF: Is it?
DK: The airfield’s long gone. Right. So this was your first operational squadron then?
KF: 619 was. Yes.
DK: 619, at Dunholme Lodge. And did you like the squadron as you joined? Was it —
KF: It was very basic.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And you were in Nissen huts, and there was sufficient beds in one Nissen hut for two crews. And one crew would have one end of the room.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And the other crew would have the other end of the room and you just simply got on with each other. But sadly, very often the crew in the other end of the hut would go missing so another crew would come in. And that was the [pause] you just shrugged and —
DK: Yeah.
KF: Tough. Sort of thing.
DK: So on your first operational squadron then can you remember much about your first operation?
KF: My first operation I was called to operate with another crew.
DK: Right.
KF: Yeah. One of their gunners had gone sick so I was called up to make up their crew.
DK: Yeah. Would you mind if I close the door? There’s a bit of drilling going on outside.
KF: Is there? Yeah.
DK: Yeah. It’s picking up on the [unclear] is that alright?
[pause]
DK: That’s it. Somebody had a, somebody had a drill going.
KF: Did they?
DK: Yeah. Sorry. So your first operation then you flew with another crew.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
KF: It was a daylight op to Le Havre submarine pens.
DK: Right. And at, so as an extra gunner then where did you actually sit because you couldn’t obviously both get in the turret. Did you just sort of swap places with him?
KF: At what stage?
DK: Well, you’re with another crew at this point.
KF: Yeah, but their gunner had gone sick so I was sitting in his turret.
DK: Oh, sorry. Oh, sorry. I thought you meant —
KF: He wasn’t flying. He wasn’t flying so I took his place.
DK: You were a replacement gunner.
KF: I was a replacement gunner.
DK: So how did that make you feel then? Flying out with a different crew then on your first operation?
KF: You just got on with them. You just simply fitted in and they accepted you and you accepted them. There was no, no embarrassment at all.
DK: Yeah. So when was your first operation then with your actual crew? Was that the next one?
KF: The next one was a daylight to Brest. That was a, so throughout the whole tour I had always done one more than they had —
DK: Right.
KF: You know, I was one ahead of them. It was interesting because when I came back, ‘What was it like? What was it like?’ And of course when you flew from Lincoln to Le Havre this was in September and of course D-Day was in June.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So you flew over the Channel and saw the battleships shelling the French coast.
DK: Right.
KF: It was quite spectacular because it was daylight.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And of course Le Havre was a short hop over France so you weren’t in too much of a, you got the odd ack ack but nothing special.
DK: So as your operations have progressed then can you remember the different targets you were sent too?
KF: Oh yeah. Yeah. I remember them all really.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Not necessarily in order but the first, the third operation was a night one to Munchen Gladbach.
DK: Right. So that would have been your first time over Germany then.
KF: This was the first time over Germany and of course it was spectacular because it was night time and you saw all the fires and the explosions and it was all like a bit of a firework display. In fact, I called the navigator and I said, ‘Terry,’ Terry Fellowes, that was the navigator —
DK: Terry Fellowes. Right.
KF: Terry Fellowes.
DK: Terry Fellowes. The navigator, yeah.
KF: And he was always in, the navigator worked in a curtained off area.
DK: Yeah.
KF: With lights on.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And the lights had to be shielded from outside to save giving your position away. So he looked out and he blamed me after that. He said, ‘I wish I’d never looked out,’ he said. And he said throughout the rest of the tour he never did look out.
DK: Look out.
KF: But of course as gunners we were seeing everything, you see.
DK: Yeah. So, as a, as a gunner then this might sound a silly question but what was your actual role as part of that crew? What was your job?
KF: Your main basic job was a lookout. Particularly in the dark because you’d have seven or eight hundred aircraft all flying along in the dark with no lights on and you particularly had to have good night vision.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Because you could see, you might be flying along for a while and suddenly see some sparks and when you looked up you discerned another aircraft only fifty, sixty feet away. So you’d then call the pilot up. Warn him that there was another aircraft to the port or starboard. Wherever. And he would veer away slightly and you would sit, then you would tell him yes ok you were out of range. And of course you were looking out for enemy aircraft. The difference in the dark sky is very minimal between seeing something and not seeing something.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So you had to have good night vision to see a black shadow against a slightly less black background. And then you had to recognise the shape. And if the shape was an enemy aircraft you’d got to decide whether to move away or attack or whatever. If he was doing no harm you left him alone because he had a bigger gun than you did.
DK: Right. So the intention would be you wouldn’t want to draw attention to yourself if you saw an enemy aircraft and he wasn’t behind you.
KF: If he wasn’t, if he wasn’t aware of your presence you kept schtum because if you fired your gun every fifth round of the belt was an incendiary. And it was an incendiary to aid you to know why you were firing. But at the same time it gave your position away.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So that if you fired when you didn’t need to and then the enemy aircraft could say, ‘Hello. I didn’t know you were there. I’ll go for you.’ So you kept quiet. If he saw you and you attacked, he attacked then you’d call the pilot up and call him to veer and corkscrew port or starboard. If the aircraft was coming in from the starboard you dived in to him.
DK: Right.
KF: If he was diving from the port you dived in to him. And the pilot, you’d call the pilot up and just simply shout quickly, ‘Corkscrew. Starboard. Go.’ And the pilot never stopped to ask. He just went.
DK: Right.
KF: And then he did a corkscrew. You know what a corkscrew is?
DK: Yeah. I do.
KF: And he’d do the corkscrew until you felt you’d got rid of him and then he would get back on to course. And the navigator then would curse and swear at you because everything had gone up in the air. His plan, maps and pencils and everything else shot up in the air.
DK: Yeah. So, you were actually attacked by German aircraft.
KF: Oh, you could. Yeah. On several occasions.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: So you, you simply got out of the way because they had cannons which had a six hundred yard range.
DK: Yeah.
KF: We had 303s which had a three hundred yard range. So if you fired at him he could stay further away and hit you and you couldn’t reach him.
DK: Did any of these German attacks ever damage the aircraft or did you always always manage to —
KF: Not, not to, well I say not to our knowledge. We sometimes came back and there was holes in the aircraft. Whether they were shrapnel or bullet holes you never really discerned.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The ground staff would have known because they were having to repair them. But when you got out of after coming back from a raid there were very often holes in the aircraft from either bullets or shrapnel.
DK: Right. But you never came back severely damaged though.
KF: Not severely damaged.
DK: No.
KF: But the amazing thing to me was that seven of us in an aircraft. We came back with holes in the aircraft but none of them ever hit anybody. Not one of the aircraft, not one of the crew was hit with any bit or injured.
DK: Right. So how many operations did you do with 619?
KF: We did nine with 619.
DK: Right.
KF: And then they wanted to form a new squadron so they took the best or the experienced crews from 619 and they also took the experienced half the crew, half the squadron and the other half was taken from a squadron at Bardney and they were sent to Strubby. And then from Strubby we went down to Balderton where we formed 227 Squadron. And then from ten ‘til thirty six we did at Balderton.
DK: Right. So you did thirty six operations altogether.
KF: Well, a tour was thirty.
DK: Right.
KF: And every four weeks of flying you were sent on ten days leave. So we thought right if we do twenty eight we’ll go on leave for ten days, come back, do two and we’ll get to our next leave. So we were being clever to get two lots of leave in quick succession.
DK: Yeah.
KF: When we came back from the twenty eight ops thinking we’d two to do and we arrived back on station and we were told that they had increased the tour from thirty to thirty five because of the bad weather down the training line was stopping new crews coming up the line. So we had seven to do.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And sadly when you went to the flight and looked at the casualty board while we’d been away somebody had done thirty one and shot down. Thirty two, shot down. If they had finished their tour at thirty they would have survived.
DK: They’d have survived.
KF: So there was a bit of an ironic situation.
DK: How did that, can you remember how that made you feel at the time?
KF: Well, you’re invincible at eighteen. Anybody else was going to.
DK: Yeah.
KF: When you saw an aircraft being shot down over target you just simply said, ‘Well not me. Tough mate.’ You know.
DK: So you did, so the rest of your crew did thirty five but you did the —
KF: I did the odd one.
DK: Extra one at thirty six, yeah.
KF: What I didn’t realise until much later was that I could have called off at thirty five but I carried on with my crew without question.
DK: So, could, could you talk through sort of what an operation would be like. A night time one. Presumably they got you up quite late during the day and then you’d, would you do a sort of training mission during the day with the aircraft? Or —
KF: Yes. You did what they called the pre-flight test.
DK: Right.
KF: You would, the morning would [pause] in the morning the pilot would go to the flights and look at the Battle Order. If he was on and the aircraft he was designated to then we would go out to that aircraft and make sure everything was in working order and then he would do a pre-flight test of about ten minutes, fifteen minutes. Check that it was, sounded all right. The radio operator would contact base and make sure —
DK: Yeah.
KF: The radio was working. And we would just make sure the guns were, were working. We didn’t actually fire them but you made sure that the mechanism was working. And then you landed. Then you went to a meal. Then you would come back and get briefed. And then you would go to the aircraft and wait for take-off and then when the green light went up you took off.
DK: What was it like at the briefings though when you saw what your target was going to be? Was it —
KF: Well, you went in to, all the buildings were Nissen huts.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And this was the biggest style of Nissen hut. And you went in and it was seated. Benches and chairs. And you were looking at the stage and the whole of the back of the stage was covered with a big curtain. And when the CO and the briefing crew came along you stood up to attention. The guy, the CO told you, ‘Sit down.’ And then the curtains were drawn back. And then you would see the whole map of Europe and a tape would be from base to the target.
DK: Right.
KF: During the course of the day you established from the ground crew how much petrol they were putting in. If it was a little, a small amount they could put more bombs. If it was a long target, a long range target it reduced the amount of bombs you could take because there was more petrol.
DK: Petrol.
KF: So if the petrol load was high you knew it was a long way.
DK: Yeah.
KF: If the petrol load was low you knew it was a shorter one.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So when you looked at the map you have a preconceived idea that it was going to be a long one or a short one.
DK: Yeah.
KF: If it was long one it was obviously going to be in to, in to Germany. One particular one was Gdynia. Which was in Poland.
DK: And that was your longest.
KF: Ten and a half hours that one.
DK: Ten and a half hours.
KF: Five hours out and five hours back. And but if it was a short one it would be something like Le Havre or Brest or —
DK: Yeah.
KF: Any of the occupied countries. You know.
DK: So before, you had a pre-flight meal presumably before you went.
KF: Well, you just had a normal meal.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But as aircrew you were privileged in that you could have as much milk as you liked.
DK: Right.
KF: Where, I’m talking, that’s surprising but milk was in short supply at the time. So being privileged you could drink as much milk as you liked. You could eat, you could ask for anything you wanted from catering.
DK: Yeah.
KF: That was available.
DK: So basically you get the green light and off you go. For take-off then where were you? Were you in the turret or were you in the —
KF: You were in the turret.
DK: Right.
KF: But you had to centralise them and, and not swivel them because that would unbalance the aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
KF: When you were taking off. The pilot could feel you if you were swinging the guns about. So you sat with your guns centralised.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And you just took off down the runway and got airborne. Once you were airborne then you could swivel your turrets.
DK: Yeah. And what was that like though? Being sort of dragged backwards as it were.
KF: Didn’t really, didn’t I don’t think there was anything. It’s just like sitting on the train backwards.
DK: So you would be in the turret for the entire time.
KF: Oh yeah. You never. It wasn’t wise to leave the turret.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So you stayed in it. But if you were over friendly territory there was in the aircraft there was what they called an elsan which was a chemical toilet. And if needed to go to the loo you could go.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But being in a flying suit as the gunner you had four layers of clothing on.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So you would, you made sure you didn’t need to go to the loo.
DK: Yeah.
KF: You made sure before you put your suit on.
DK: Yeah.
KF: That you’d drained yourself.
DK: Did you have electrical heated suits?
KF: Yeah.
DK: You did. Yeah. And were they any good because I’ve heard different stories.
KF: Oh yes. They were good. No. They were good.
DK: Yeah.
KF: In fact, sometimes they would, I remember once getting my foot slipper was getting too hot and there were studs at the back of the heel fitting on to the suit, and I just disconnected it.
DK: Yeah. What was it like being in the rear turret then? Was it, because you are cut off from the rest of the crew. Was it a little, a little lonely there? Or were you —
KF: Well, you could always call up on, on the intercom. You never felt. I mean the rear turret was behind the tail so you were hanging over the back and you could see the tail struts were out here somewhere.
DK: Yeah.
KF: You’re out in space really. You’re in a, in a Perspex dome.
DK: And do you remember much about as you reached the target and the bombs dropping and what happened to the aircraft then?
KF: Oh yeah. I mean the pilot, the navigator in particular, to get seven hundred aircraft over the target they were all give a different direction to come in so that they weren’t all falling over one another. So every aircraft would come in at a certain time at a certain angle to make sure that they all dropped over the target but they were all zigzagging about. So you would be [pause] the navigator would tell the pilot what course to fly. He would fly the course. Then eventually he would see the target because it had already been marked by the Pathfinders.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Or it was already in flames anyway. So as you approached the target on the heading that you had already been given, no, the navigator had been given. At the height the bomb aimer would be laying on the front nose looking through the bombsight and as he got closer to the target he would direct the pilot. The navigator would fall out of the equation and the bomb aimer would take over and tell the pilot, ‘Left. Left. Steady. Right. Steady.’ Got him on. And then when the pilot, when the bomb aimer was over the target he would press the tit, shout, ‘Bombs gone,’ and the aircraft would lift up. You could feel it. But what you had to do as gunners you had to make sure that the guy above you wasn’t directly above you dropping on — several aircraft got lost on targets by other aircrew dropping their bombs on the aircraft below.
DK: So, as, as the bomb run was happening you were looking up there and there and there right up to —
KF: Well, you were looking left, right and centre. And if you, two aircraft on the route from base to the target some aircraft would be two minutes later than they should have been or two minutes earlier. So there would always be a little bit of congestion over the target.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The worst thing that could happen when you were over the target was not being able to drop the bombs and then you were shouted, ‘Bomb bays closed. Go around again.’ So you had to go around again whilst everybody is shooting at you. Because the guy above you was going to drop his bombs on you.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And so you would tell the pilot and he would drop back a bit and then the guy above you would drop his bombs past you. But sometimes because the guy above didn’t want to go around again he wouldn’t care that you were underneath him.
DK: Yeah.
KF: He would drop them and hope they didn’t hit you. But that was one of the hard facts of life.
DK: So you dropped your bombs on target. You were heading for home now.
KF: After you’ve dropped your bombs the bomb aimer and the pilot had to continue for another thirty seconds on a straight and level course to allow the flash, photo flash to trigger over the target and it took a photograph of where the bomb aimer had dropped his bombs.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And then after thirty seconds of level you could fall off and then the navigator would give the pilot a course to set for home.
DK: Yeah. So you’re setting back for home then. How, how are you feeling as you approached the airfield? Was it a sense of — ?
KF: Well, you left the target but you still had to be alert.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Because when if an enemy aircraft was above you he could see you silhouetted against the flames below.
DK: Right.
KF: So he could come down on you when he, and what he would often do was go under you. There was a bit of a fallacy that the rear gunner is in the most endangered position.
DK: Right.
KF: Not necessarily so because an enemy aircraft depending on which angle he’s coming at you isn’t necessarily going to kill the rear gunner first.
DK: Right.
KF: He could come in from the side and as you possibly well know there was what they called schrage musik. And the enemy aircraft had a gun —
DK: Yeah.
KF: At an angle. And he would come underneath you and fire into the wing.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Where the petrol tanks were. And the first you knew of it was where the wing took off. You know. And so periodically you would get the pilot to tilt over so you could look underneath and then look underneath again.
DK: You never saw anybody coming up to shoot you from below then when you [unclear]
KF: No. No. No
DK: No. I guess, yeah, so when you got back home then what was the feeling as you got back off an operation?
KF: You were only relieved when the wheels touched down. You were always looking out for, at one time, particularly during the end of the war a lot of the German aircraft used to follow the bomber crews in when their airfield was lit up and they were landing on the runway. When they were wheels down and flaps down.
DK: Yeah.
KF: They were at their most vulnerable because they couldn’t manoeuvre and the enemy pilot who’d followed him in would then shoot him down and several aircraft sadly were lost —
DK: Right.
KF: On the approach to the runway. So you never gave up until you actually wheeled down.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And hit the runway.
DK: Yeah. Is it ok if I have a look at the old logbook? [pause] I just wondered if I have a look at the various operations there.
KF: Red were night ops.
DK: Red for night ops. Yeah.
KF: Green were daylights.
DK: So that —
KF: And black was flying.
DK: This is just for the recording. So that’s the Lancaster Finishing School.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Syerston. So then 619 squadron. So that’s Allen. Your —
KF: Flight Sergeant Allen.
DK: Your pilot. So, that’s the first operation was to Brest. Wasn’t it?
KF: Yeah
DK: So with a different pilot. Franks.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. [unclear]
KF: And then the next one was Le Havre. Was it Le Havre?
[pause]
DK: I’ve got Darmstadt.
KF: Sorry?
DK: Darmstadt.
KF: No, that’s, there’s another one.
DK: Oh, here we go. Le Havre.
KF: Later on. That’s it.
DK: Gun positions.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. So the Brest operation was on the 2nd of September.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Then Le Havre.
KF: That was the first one with my crew.
DK: The first one with your crew. 10th of September. And then the 11th of September your first night operation to Darmstadt.
KF: Darmstadt. That’s right.
DK: So there’s Darmstadt. Munchen Gladbach.
KF: And then Munchen Gladbach.
DK: So most, most of the German cities here aren’t there? Ops to Bergen. Was that —
KF: Norway.
DK: Norway. Right.
KF: Norway.
DK: So that’s with, that was Balderton. So you joined Balderton with 227 Squadron in October ’44. [pause] So there’s a Dortmund Ems canal.
KF: Yeah.
DK: So that was two operations there then.
KF: Oh, we went there several times.
DK: Several times. Right.
KF: The idea was you, there was a high point between Dortmund and Ems.
DK: Right.
KF: And the idea was to break the banks, drain the canal and none of the barges could travel from Dortmund to Ems.
DK: Right.
KF: With material for the war production. So they kept going back and of course when they built the, when they repaired the dam and the water went back in again you went back again and burst it again.
DK: Right.
KF: So that’s why we kept going back to the Dortmund Ems Canal.
DK: You went there on the 4th of November. Then again the 6th of November.
KF: Went back three or four times I think.
DK: Yeah. Then Munich, 27th of November.
KF: Three times to Munich.
DK: Three times Munich. There’s a recall there I see. The Urft Dam.
KF: Urft Dam. Yeah.
DK: U R F T Dam. Yeah.
KF: Gdynia.
DK: Gdynia.
KF: That was Poland.
DK: Yeah. So Gdynia was on the 18th of December. Oh. So you did Munich on the 17th of December. And then Gdynia the next day. The 18th of December.
KF: Yeah. Two long ones. Because Munich was right down in the far end of Germany.
DK: Then the 30th of December there’s ops to I’ll spell this out for the recording H O U F F.
KF: Houffalize.
DK: ALIZE. Houffalize. The Dortmund Ems Canal again on January the 1st.
KF: Yeah.
DK: So, Houffalize again.
KF: You see, Royan. That one is a coastal town in France.
DK: Right.
KF: And when the D-Day landing took place they went down. The Americans went down the peninsula and Royan was in a German garrison but because the Americans went down so fast they were —
DK: Cut off.
KF: Cut off.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And the French were complaining that the Germans were going out in to the countryside and rustling for food and one thing and another so they asked for, and the garrison was too big for the French Resistance to take on so they asked us to go down and —
DK: Bomb them.
KF: Bomb them. But the point I’m getting around to is that the briefing by the meteorological officer was completely wrong, and when. Because it was only a pocket in France and the country around about was already occupied by us —
DK: Yeah.
KF: We didn’t do a deviation. We went straight to the target. The wind speed given by the meteorological officer was wrong and there was a huge tailwind which got us there early. And we flew over Royan about six or seven minutes early for the bomb aiming, for the bombing and there were no markers down so we didn’t know where we were. So when we’d over shot the target we had to turn around and come back because it was fatal because every other aircraft was still coming.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So there was and we lost several aircraft in crashes.
DK: Collisions.
KF: Albeit there was very little anti- aircraft.
DK: So that was Royan. R O Y A N. And that’s January the 4th.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. In France.
KF: Well, if we’re going back one if you look back at December [pause] December we were out on New Year’s Eve. December 31st. 30th.
DK: No. That’s the 18th there.
KF: Sorry?
DK: 30th. Yeah.
KF: That was the, that was—
DK: Houffalize.
KF: The [pause] when the Germans broke through. You know the Battle of the Bulge.
DK: Oh, the Battle of the Bulge. Oh right. Ok.
KF: That was the Battle of the Bulge.
DK: Right. So that’s —
KF: And what date was that?
DK: 30th of December.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Houffalize.
KF: The night before the New Year. Night before New Year.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So Politz.
KF: Politz.
DK: Politz on —
KF: That was in Czechoslovakia.
DK: Yeah. So Politz again there. Dresden on the 13th of February.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Do you remember, do you remember much about that?
KF: The famous Dresden raid.
DK: Do you remember much about that operation?
KF: Nothing special. Just another one. It was only afterwards that we, I mean that was this is what really appalled me. If you remember Harris. Bomber Harris, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: You know. He got no credit for doing what he did because after the war everybody was saying, ‘Look at the damage you’ve done. Oh terrible.’ So even right up until when was the Battle of Britain, not the Battle — the Bomber Command Memorial.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Seventy odd years later.
DK: Yeah. 2012 that was. Yeah.
KF: And what I’m saying is really nobody gave you credit for what you did.
DK: No.
KF: And in fact, I’ve an opinion. I’ve a theory that we did Germany a favour in a, in a odd way. When we knocked everything out of Germany I mean we flew over Germany after the war to look at the damage and it was, you might have seen photographs yourself.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: They had nothing. So they had to renew everything with new equipment to get back on their feet. And we gave them thousands. And America did. To save them going over to the Russian sphere.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: We pumped millions of pounds into Germany. They got all completely new equipment.
DK: Yeah.
KF: New factories. New houses. New, new buildings.
DK: That’s it.
KF: We’re coming back to all our old clapped out aeroplanes and trains.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And infrastructure. And Germany then went to be a very renowned engineering country.
DK: Yeah. It was the West German economic miracle wasn’t it?
KF: That’s right.
DK: But of course it was financed by the Americans and Volkswagen. Yeah.
KF: Volkswagen. Volkswagen was saved by the British Army.
DK: That’s right. Yeah.
KF: They ran it for several years after the war.
DK: Yeah. True. So then —
KF: But people forget that.
DK: Yeah.
KF: I mean Germany today in my opinion is ruling Europe.
DK: Yeah.
KF: By economic means. Whereas it tried to do it —
DK: Militarily.
KF: By military means.
DK: Yeah. So just going on then into March ’45. So you’d then got, I see the Dortmund Ems again. March the 3rd. Harburg on the 7th of March. And a place near Leipzig on the 20th of March. So, would that have been your last operation then?
KF: What was that one.
DK: Leipzig, Poland.
KF: No. That was —
DK: Bohlen.
KF: What date was that?
DK: March the 20th.
KF: No. Bohlen was the last one.
DK: Yeah. Bohlen. Yeah.
KF: Oh. Near Leipzig.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Bohlen. That was the last one.
DK: So your last operation then March the 20th.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Bohlen near Leipzig.
KF: That was their thirty fifth. My thirty sixth.
DK: Right. So that’s B O H L E N.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. So the war’s come to the end then and did, did you [pause] what happened to your crew then? Did they all split up?
KF: When we finished operations. The two gunners. Myself and my other mate we were sent back to Silverstone as instructors. What you [pause] if the war had lasted longer if you did thirty ops then you did six months rest. And at that six months you were sent to a training base to train up the crews coming up the line. And then you went back for another thirty. And then you could opt out altogether or volunteer for more.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But being, being the end of the war we were at Silverstone as instructors when VE day came up.
DK: Was there any plans that you might go out to the Pacific afterwards?
KF: We were then sent to Cranwell with a view to training for Tiger Force.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But fortunately while we were at Cranwell VJ day came up.
DK: Were the atomic bombs a bit of a relief?
KF: So, oh yeah. Funnily enough there was always a fear that dropping in, dropping over Europe if you were shot down.
DK: Yes.
KF: And you could get out if you could out. Dropping out over Germany and either trying to get back through the escape channels or getting captured didn’t bear the same risks or fears that if you dropped over Borneo.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And going, thinking of going out to Japan.
DK: Get caught by the Japanese.
KF: Or the Japanese theatre you kept thinking of the bloody jungles and dropping in the trees and God knows what, you know.
DK: So did you manage to keep in touch with your crew after the war?
KF: Sadly no. It’s always with hindsight.
DK: Yeah.
KF: I suppose some crews did keep in touch but life was so quick and so you moved so quickly that we, we dispersed.
DK: Right.
KF: And didn’t keep in touch. But years later I got in on my computer and I found what they were called in Australia the Odd Bods Organisation. Have you heard of it?
DK: No. I haven’t. No. No.
KF: The odd bods. There was a lot of Australian crews, members and they flew from RAF stations. Some of them went to an Australian, purely Australian squadron.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So when they went back to Australia after the war those who weren’t in the Australian squadron formed a group called the Odd Bods.
DK: Right. Right.
KF: They were the odd crew members —
DK: Yeah.
KF: In the British. And I got through to them and I found in their website a Roll of Honour and saw Flying Officer Allen.
DK: Oh right.
KF: Who had died. As a civilian of course.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
KF: Years after this is. So I got in touch with the secretary on the computer and asked him if I could get in touch with his widow.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And I said I also knew Bill Eudey who was the wireless operator.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: So he said, ‘Oh, he’s also died.’ So he said, ‘Yes, I’ll get in touch with the widows to see whether they’re happy for you to communicate with you. And they came back and said yes.
DK: Oh good.
KF: So I got in touch with them both. One was on the computer.
DK: Yeah.
KF: One wasn’t.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The pilot’s wife wasn’t computer literate so I kept in touch with her by correspondence.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But sadly since she’s died.
DK: Right.
KF: The wireless operator’s widow I speak to every morning on, every Saturday morning on Skype.
DK: Oh excellent. That’s —
KF: We have a chat you know.
DK: Yeah. There’s some good aspects to new technology isn’t there?
KF: That’s right. Yeah. The flight engineer when you got to the OC, OC [pause] whatever. Conversion Unit.
DK: Yeah.
KF: That’s when you picked up the engineer.
DK: Right.
KF: So we picked up an engineer. A flight engineer from Manchester.
DK: At the Heavy Conversion Unit.
KF: At the Heavy Conversion Unit.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And he eventually moved to Australia.
DK: Right.
KF: So I tried to get in touch with him. But he had died.
DK: Right.
KF: And these are all about ten years ago.
DK: Yeah. Oh, that’s a shame.
KF: So I’ve got in touch with his widow. But then she’s since died. You know.
DK: Yeah.
KF: This is what time does. We all go off the end at the end.
DK: Eventually. So all these years later looking back at your time in RAF Bomber Command how do you feel about that period of your life now? Looking back on it.
KF: How do I feel?
DK: [unclear]
KF: I suppose really being one of the fifty percent that lived you know you feel relieved that you, as I said earlier none of us got wounded at all.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So we were lucky in that sense and to survive as well was also another bonus, you know. But you see people began to get this attitude of we were cruel. We were [pause] so they didn’t want to know you. They don’t say directly but there was that undercurrent.
DK: Yeah.
KF: That you did. I mean the RAF Bomber Command was the only arm of the services that fought throughout the whole of the war.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The Navy never went out of bay, err out of port unless they had to.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The Army got defeated at Dunkirk and had two years where they were completely reforming.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So the RAF Bomber Command were the only group that kept the war going.
DK: Yeah.
KF: When everybody else was marking time.
DK: Yeah. That’s very true. Ok. I’ve just got one final question. I know I asked you this before but for the recording could we, could we just go through the crew again. Is that alright?
KF: Sorry. There’s one.
DK: Have you got one with the names?
KF: I’ve got one with all the names on. Let me go upstairs again.
DK: Are you ok doing? Are you sure? Is that alright?
KF: I’m trying to think where I put it.
DK: It might still be on the table. Put that on there again. So left, so left to right that’s Charlie Clegg.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Terry.
KF: Terry.
DK: Fellowes.
KF: Fellowes.
DK: Then it’s the rigger there presumably.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Harry Reeves. The rigger.
KF: Yeah. Harry Reeves.
DK: Then Charlie Tudor, flight mechanic.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Then Sergeant Ken —
KF: Mepham.
DK: Mepham. That’s M E P H A M.
KF: That’s right.
DK: He was the flight engineer.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Then Jack Barton.
KF: Yeah.
DK: The second bomb aimer.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Then Pilot Officer Bill —
KF: Eudey.
DK: Eudey.
KF: E U D E Y.
DK: E U D E Y. Then Corporal Scotty Scott.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Who was a fitter. Flight Sergeant Ken Fawcett.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Which is your good self.
KF: That’s right.
DK: You’re listed there as the mid-upper gunner. Yeah.
KF: That’s right. Well, the gunner. We used to do both.
DK: Yeah. And then Flight Sergeant Kirk Kent.
KF: That’s right.
DK: And then kneeling is —
KF: Flying Officer Allen.
DK: Flying Officer Ken Allen.
KF: Ken Allen.
DK: The pilot. So just going back to Kirk Kent did you ever find out anything more about him as his, when he was ill or —
KF: No. No. Things are [pause] wartime you didn’t take the same personal interest in, you simply they were there or they weren’t there.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Whilst he was in hospital we were flying operationally so we didn’t have time to bother.
DK: Right.
KF: How he was or who he was or where he was.
DK: Right. Ok. And —
KF: Movements were so fleeting.
DK: Yeah.
KF: You just came and went. People. You didn’t, you didn’t get —
DK: On that point, just one final thing as a crew did you all used to socialise outside?
KF: Oh yeah.
DK: What did you do then? Do you go to the pubs and —
KF: Yeah. You go down the pub together.
DK: Yeah.
KF: You wouldn’t necessarily all go together.
DK: No.
KF: At Balderton the air, the air [pause] the station.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The runways and all that were over the A1.
DK: Right.
KF: The living quarters were about a half a mile away down a country lane. What they used to do was to disperse everything so that if there was an attack on it everything wouldn’t go together.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So that if the living quarters was always away and the mess and everything else was away.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So you would get from the, you would simply walk or sometimes you could get a station bicycle.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And you’d cycle from one place to another. The living quarters were down a country lane which if you went down about a mile down the road was in to Balderton village.
DK: Right.
KF: Where the pub was.
DK: Right.
KF: And that was either you went to the mess or you went to the pub.
[recording paused]
DK: Well, thanks very much for that. That’s been absolutely marvellous. It’s been just over an hour.
KF: I don’t know whether it’s me or what but when I did the Duxford one they said it would only take about a quarter of an hour.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And when we ended up it was about an hour and a bit.
DK: An hour and a bit, yeah. Well, this one’s an hour and a bit so that sounds about right. Ok. Well, thanks very much for that. I’ll switch off now.
[recording paused]
KF: Flying fortresses were coming back from the daylight.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And the air was full of Maydays. They didn’t have separate navigators on every aircraft. They had a lead navigator and a back-up navigator and when they turned everybody turned.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But when they came back in dusk and it was getting dark they were panicking because they couldn’t, they didn’t have navigators to get them home.
DK: They hadn’t navigated in the dark.
KF: That’s right.
DK: What did you feel about the Americans then? Were you sort of in awe of them? Of what they were doing. Or think they were daft.
KF: Only in awe in the sense that going out one night when they were coming back they were flying a slightly, you could see them in the dark and dusk you know.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And there was holes, and the tails were flying off, wings were hanging off, engines were hanging off. And I mean they took an awful lot of hammering but that was partly their own fault because they simply wouldn’t. They didn’t. You see we were individual and we could fly. We could turn off target. Off course.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And get back on course because the navigator knew what he was doing.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But when they came off course very often they were isolated and they were picked off.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So you preferred the way the British did it then. At, at night.
KF: And when you see most of the documentaries they were always showing daylight raids by American Fortresses.
DK: Yeah.
KF: As if the Bomber Command didn’t exist.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Because everything that the bombers, the did the Americans did was in daylight.
DK: And they could film it.
KF: So the cameras could film it.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But at night time there wasn’t a lot of material.
DK: No. Did you, did you ever meet any of the American aircrew at all?
KF: No. But mind you I will admit that when some of our aircrew parachuted over an American airfield or crash landed on an American airfield in an emergency —
DK: Yeah.
KF: They usually come back loaded with, they were taken to the PX store.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And they were give free hand to take what they wanted.
DK: Oh right.
KF: So the guys used to come back with a load of goodies that we’d never seen for years.
DK: They were very generous then, were they?
KF: Oh yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
KF: But they were funny because they couldn’t discern very often when an aircrew crashed anywhere near the American field. They were apprehended.
DK: Oh right.
KF: And treated as if they were Germans.
DK: Right.
KF: Because the Americans didn’t always recognise an RAF. They had to convince them. And then they would allow them to ring the squadron.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And call for the transport to come and bring them. Once they realised they were British then they treated them.
DK: Yeah.
KF: With generosity. But they very often used to because the German Air Force blue was similar to ours.
DK: Right. Right. So they had to be wary to start with.
KF: But the Americans were quite naive you know.
DK: Well, you’d think they wouldn’t make that mistake wouldn’t you?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ken Fawcett
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AFawcettK170926, PFawcettK1701
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:06:22 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Fawcett worked for the Post Office and served in the Home Guard for two and a half years having signed up at sixteen. He joined the Royal Air Force at Lords Cricket Ground in September 1943. He initially requested pilot training but realising the duration of training Ken transferred to air gunner which enabled him to join a squadron much sooner. Ken trained at No1 Elementary Air Gunnery School at RAF Bridgenorth and No 12 Air Gunnery School at RAF Bishops Court in Northern Ireland. He recalled gun turret training in Anson aircraft using ammunition tipped with coloured paint so that his accuracy firing at towed target drogues could be assessed. Following gunnery training Ken transferred to No 17 Operational Training Unit at RAF Syerston flying Wellingtons, he recalled his first sight of a Wellington was a training flight stalling on takeoff and crashing with the loss of all crew members. No 1654 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Wigsley brought four engine training in Stirling and Lancaster aircraft in preparation to joining 619 Squadron in 5 Group. Ken’s Crew included: Pilot Ken Alan and Wireless Operator Bill Eudey from Australia, Bomb Aimers Kirk Kent and Jack Barton, Gunner Charlie Clegg, Flight Engineer Ken Mepham and Navigator Terry Fellows. On completion of nine operations with 619 Squadron at RAF Dunholme Lodge his crew were transferred to 227 Squadron at RAF Balderton, they completed both daylight and night operations and Ken recalled seeing capital ships shelling the French coast during the D Day invasion. He described a typical operation from pre-flight test to returning to base and how they would quiz the ground crew as to how much fuel was loaded, this gave an indication of the duration of the operation that evening before the official crew briefing. Ken gives a vivid insight into the role of the rear gunner as a lookout scanning the darkness for both friendly and enemy aircraft, trying to discern dark shadows against a dark sky or sparks from an aircraft’s exhaust. The danger from collisions or another aircraft dropping its bombs from above was ever present. Opening fire he described as a last resort given the range of the enemy fighter’s cannons were twice that of his .303 machine guns, so stealth he stated was the best policy. On completion of 36 operations Ken was transferred to No 17 Operational Training Unit at RAF Syerston as an instructor and then to RAF Cranwell in preparation to join Tiger Force in the Far East. VJ Day led to the cancellation of Tiger Force before he completed his training.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jim Sheach
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Shropshire
France--Le Havre
Germany--Darmstadt
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Northern Ireland--Down (County)
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09
1944
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
1654 HCU
17 OTU
227 Squadron
619 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
civil defence
Cook’s tour
crash
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
Lancaster
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Balderton
RAF Bishops Court
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Cranwell
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Silverstone
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
Stirling
take-off crash
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/836/10826/AGivensM180723.2.mp3
f2202bb9b473c81f63280dd98f852a46
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Givens, Margaret
M Givens
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Margaret Givens (b. 1934). She remembers the bombing of Coventry.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Givens, M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HD: This is Helen Durham on the 23rd of July 2018 and I’m going to interview Mrs Margaret Givens. Well, thank you Margaret very much for allowing me to come and meet me and have an interview.
MG: That’s alright.
HD: I know you’ve got some very interesting stories to talk about. Could you tell me where you were born?
MG: I was born in Coventry [laughs] I was going to say Skegness, in 1934.
HD: Yes.
MG: In Keresley, Coventry. On the outskirts.
HD: And can you tell me a bit about your family? Your parents.
MG: Well, they were just mum and dad. I’d got a brother as well who sadly has died over the last few years. He was two and a half years older than me.
HD: And were you close?
MG: Yeah. Quite close. Yes.
HD: Yes. So, what was your first memory of Coventry?
MG: My first memory of Coventry really is more or less the war I think. I was five. I remember mother and father listening to it on the news and their faces when they heard that war had broken out. And after that it was just, we had to have Anderson air raid shelters. We shared one with the next door neighbours but we didn’t like it very much at nights so instead of staying in that when the sirens went we would cycle to my grandparents seven miles away. My father would push me on my little fairy cycle. And if we had a [pause] the Spitfires and Messerschmitts would be fighting overhead and we had to jump into bushes, hedgerows and wait ‘til the fighting had finished and then get on our way again. Our own house was bombed out. We weren’t in it. We’d gone on our bikes. But we were in my grandmother’s house when that was bombed and my brother was sleeping next to the wall, I was in the middle, old feather bed. Grandmother’s old feather bed. She was on the outside. The wall fell down on my brother but he didn’t even wake up. Mother and father were sleeping in an outside wooden chalet. That caught fire and they were cut out with, by neighbours with axes etcetera. So that was quite upsetting.
HD: And this was at your grandmother’s house.
MG: That was at my grandmother’s. We lived all over the Christmas in an underground air raid shelter because we had nowhere to live. So again, that wasn’t a very good experience. We had to be dug out of that because it snowed heavily and we got stuck in it, and after that I don’t remember a lot of it but we did, we were evacuated. During the main blitz in Coventry when the cathedral was bombed all that was left standing was the spire. All the rest was just bricks and we had a service there. I don’t know how long after it was bombed but it wasn’t, it was only a day or two after, and we sat on the bricks my brother and I with the rest of the children. Soon after that we were evacuated. We were lucky. We went to the Forest of Dean. Right at the top of the Forest of Dean on a farm. And it was our next door neighbour’s mother that owned it, and she had four children from London there and just my brother and I and we went to school there. We learned to play the piano down there, and we were there two and a quarter years with our parents coming on the odd occasion. Very rarely because they hadn’t got a car at that time. So [pause] yeah it’s —
HD: Going back to when your family home was bombed, can you remember any of the emotions? What happened when you went back to the house?
MG: No, because our parents went back and left us at my grandmother’s. They’d heard from a neighbour. It was, there was a public house in the front of us and they had a big car park. The front was the other side and the car park was in front of us and they’d dropped a land mine on the car park and that demolished our row of houses.
HD: Was it ever rebuilt?
MG: Yes. Yes. We have been down to see it since haven’t we?
HD: And can you remember it being built, and did you move back in again?
MG: Yes. Yes, we did. We moved to Skegness in 1946.
HD: Very hard times then.
MG: Yes, they were.
HD: And when you had Christmas in the underground shelter what happened on Christmas Day? Were there lots of families there?
MG: No, there was, we was only, we were on our own. The downstairs of our grandparent’s house was alright but there were no stairs or anything and we spent Christmas Day in there, in the house. But I can remember my father walking down the steps in to the underground shelter and from somewhere I don’t know where he’d managed to find a word game, and he dropped it and all the bits fell out which took the edge off the [laughs] it amused us all.
HD: Were you able to celebrate Christmas in any way?
MG: Well, best we could. Yeah.
HD: Did you have something to eat?
MG: Yes.
HD: Can you —
MG: As far as I can remember. I mean, I don’t remember a lot of it obviously at five years old. You don’t at five or six.
HD: It must have been a very frightening experience for you.
MG: It was frightening. Yes. Particularly when my grandmother’s house was bombed because there were no stairs there. We had to jump into neighbour’s arms, and you know for children it was frightening. But some of it was quite exciting. Like diving under hedgerows and watching the planes fighting above. To us that was exciting. But to our parents of course very frightening. My father was in the Home Guard.
HD: Tell me a bit about your father in the Home Guard.
MG: Well, he took it. It was hard for him. It wasn’t easy. Well, his mental state wasn’t good. That’s the reason he didn’t go in to the forces. He wasn’t passed to go in. And of course he saw some horrendous things when he was in the Home Guard and more or less, you know made him a lot worse and that was why we moved to Skegness because they thought it would help. Help him. But as it was we moved in the May to Skegness. He was sent, taken into St John’s Hospital which was Bracebridge Heath in the July, and stayed there for thirty.
Other: [whisper] Two.
MG: Thirty two years. So, you know, it did hit the family hard.
HD: How was your mother?
MG: She was a strong lady. She managed to cope bringing us up because she had Sue in the October the same year that we moved to Skegness and, although she was ill when she had Sue, but I more or less looked after her. But really that’s more or less it. The — [pause]
HD: So how old were you when you moved to Skegness?
MG: Twelve. I was thirteen in the following October.
HD: And you went to school in Skegness.
MG: I went to the Grammar School, because I was at a girl’s school in Coventry. Senior School obviously, and I was transferred to Skegness Grammar School.
HD: And life changed when you went to Skegness.
MG: Oh yes. Considerably. The school was so different for a start. You know whereas I’d been used to just girls there was both sexes and it was, well it was mayhem really [laughs] Whereas we were, it was very very strict in Coventry in the school it wasn’t so strict here.
HD: And do you know what upset your father? Did he ever talk about the experiences?
MG: No. I think, you know as I said he wasn’t mentally fit when it happened and I think that just tipped him over the edge. He had paranoid schizophrenia in the end. You’ll have to excuse my voice. I’m losing it. I always do in this area.
HD: And what did he do in the Home Guard? Did he have a special job or —
MG: No. I think they did whatever was needed at the time. Whether it be digging people out of houses that had been bombed, or I mean he must have seen some dreadful sights. Some of his partners in in the Home Guard they were killed, you know. So it wasn’t good for him. And I think it did just finish him off.
HD: But he was incredibly brave.
MG: Oh yes. We had to be. You know, in a place like Coventry. I remember Courtaulds going up. They were making the tyres for the aeroplanes and you could see the flames for miles because of the, obviously the rubber.
HD: So, Coventry was devastated by the bombing.
MG: Yes.
HD: Did it bring the community together?
MG: Oh yes. I mean, everyone looked after everyone else. It was as simple as that. You had to. As I say we were away for two and a quarter years anyway.
HD: Did you enjoy being an evacuee?
MG: Some of the time but not all of the time. There were some very cruel young boys that lived quite close by and they used to tease us and aggravate us. They threw my brother in to a pond through the ice and, you know they did some horrible things but we got through it. We managed. And there were good times. As I say we learned to play the piano there. We went to school. They were good days there. It was just one of those things you had to do.
HD: Quite difficult for a young child to change from city life to country life.
MG: Oh yes. Yes. I mean I liked it on the farm because I love animals and I’ve always loved animals. We had some gorgeous pictures of us feeding the chickens and things like that, but when mother died they just disappeared so we don’t know where they went.
HD: Were there any of the animals that you particularly were fond of?
MG: No. They were all just, it was just a general farm. Dogs. And of course they were always my favourites.
HD: And were you all assigned jobs to do?
MG: Not particularly. If we wanted to go feed the chickens, we would go and feed them you know. We weren’t made to do anything. The people that lived there that took us in were very, very nice. Couldn’t have been better. We were lucky. But I mean they knew our parents so, which made a lot of difference.
HD: And when you went back to Coventry that must have been difficult again, readjusting.
MG: Yes.
HD: From being away and coming back.
MG: Yes. I don’t even remember what years we were away. I don’t remember the dates or anything or what year. But yes, it was difficult.
HD: And when you went to Skegness that was in ’47.
MG: ’46.
HD: ’46. Excuse me.
MG: It was ’46, wasn’t it?
HD: And the change, and the war had finished. How was family life then?
MG: Not good, because my father at this stage was very poorly. In fact, he well he was taken in to the, in to St John’s Hospital in the July. I mean we only moved in the May, so it was only a month or two where he was at home. After that he was in hospital.
HD: Were you ever able to go and visit him?
MG: Yes. Yes, we did go and visit him. We visited him I think every week, despite having a, mother having a young child, a young baby. We used to go and visit him on the train.
HD: And how was that? What do you remember?
MG: A bit frightening, you know. Because you’d walk past padded cells, and things like that in the, but they were good, they put us in a room, a separate room so we got through it.
HD: And were you able to bond with your father?
MG: Yes. I think so. I think, you know, I mean he didn’t come back into our lives really until he was in his eighties. I don’t remember what year he came back. I don’t know whether you do.
Other: It was when they reorganised the mental health system.
MG: They more or less threw the mental health patients out on the streets.
Other: That’s ’79 I think.
MG: Yeah. Yes. They could no longer keep them in the hospitals. They had to come out and he stayed in Skegness in a home in Drummond Road and he was quite happy there I think. I used to pick him up from work and take him for tea one night a week and he seemed alright. As long as he took his medication he was fine.
HD: So what happened to you after the war?
MG: Well, as I say we came back. Came to Skegness and I went to the Grammar School. My brother was working by then as an apprentice because of course we finished work, finished school quite young in those days. I mean, I was fifteen when I started work and I think my brother was about fourteen. He got an apprenticeship in a printer’s place and he was transferred here to somewhere. So, yeah we managed alright.
HD: And what did you do?
MG: I started off in a place called Keithley’s which was a [pause] I don’t know what you would call it. They sold curtains, and everything else under the sun like that and then I went into the chemists. I worked in a chemists/opticians for a few years. I can’t remember how many years. I’ve lost count. These thing you forget over time.
HD: And when did you get married?
MG: I got married on my nineteenth birthday. 1953. Coronation year.
HD: And your husband, had he been in the forces?
MG: No. No. No. He was a joiner by trade. My second husband has been in the RAF for a good many years but John, my first husband of course was only, well he was two and a half years older than me. Same age as, no five and a half years older than me so he, you know he wasn’t old enough to be in the forces.
HD: It’s a harrowing tale. Big experiences. Is there something that stands out for you as you were growing up? What did you learn from all these experiences?
[pause]
MG: I really don’t know. As children some things you find exciting, some are frightening, you know, I think the worst experiences was seeing them trying to get my mother and father out of the burning chalet. That was the worst experience, but apart from that, you know you just carried on.
HD: And were they injured?
MG: No. No. They got them out in time luckily. There was a little row of cottages down below my grandparents, and they dropped incendiary bombs all the way along the cottages and on to our [pause] the chalet and then on to the house. So the whole lot was bombed.
HD: How do you feel about the Germans? How do you —
MG: I’ve got several German friends. It’s not their fault. They didn’t cause it. They’re no different to we are.
HD: So you have no bitterness?
MG: No.
HD: No sadness.
MG: Only with Hitler. It was him. I mean, it was nothing to do with the normal people. I mean they were bombed out the same as we were. They had some devastating experiences just the same. You can’t blame them.
HD: Now, tell me about your mother. How old was she when she died?
MG: She was only about sixty five, was it? Sixty four. Sixty five.
Other: Sixty six.
MG: Sixty six. Yeah. She developed cancer and she died. She went to live down in Devon and she died down there.
HD: She’d had a hard time.
MG: Very hard. Very hard. Trying to bring up three of us. One only a child, a small child in those, you know with no husband to help out.
HD: No support.
MG: No.
HD: So, did she go to work?
MG: Yes. She worked in a variety of places, and she took visitors in. She worked in a crisp factory, was it?
Other: Yeah. And the rock factory as well.
MG: The rock factory, yes.
HD: In Skegness.
MG: Yes. Yes.
HD: And you say she took visitors in.
MG: Yes.
HD: Was this like a boarding house? Was it?
Other: Yes.
HD: Was it?
MG: It was only a bungalow but she took several visitors in and we had to help out of course.
HD: She worked hard.
MG: She did. She was a hard worker. While we, when we went back to our house in Coventry my mother had left her handbag on the window sill of the French doors and I went through from school. Mother was talking to the next door neighbour at the front. I went through from school and there was somebody taking her handbag. They took all the clothing coupons and everything else really that she’d got.
HD: And that was in Coventry.
MG: That was in Coventry before we moved, and so even then they wouldn’t replace the clothing coupons. So we had to have clothes from the Red Cross, and that wasn’t nice. We didn’t like it. But I had one really lovely plaid skirt from the Red Cross which I loved as a child. Yeah. There were some good things.
HD: Did they ever catch the person?
MG: No. They took me around in a police car but I mean I was what? I was twelve. Less than twelve. I think about eleven at the time and it was, I was so scared I went down the path after him and then realised and stood behind the Anderson shelter which had got a like a hump although it was underground, and I thought what if he’s got a gun or something? And I lost my voice and I couldn’t speak for several hours.
HD: It was the shock of it.
MG: It was the shock. Yeah. Of seeing it happen. That was not a good thing of course.
HD: Can you remember any other incidents?
MG: Not really. I can’t think of anything really. You forget a lot over the years.
HD: Yes. And they stopped, well it wasn’t until the ‘50s that they stopped the rationing. How did you all manage with rationing as a family?
MG: Struggled. Struggled. There was a shop around the corner in Skegness from where he lived. He was very good. He helped us out in lots of ways, and because you know when your coupons and things were taken they weren’t replaced so we were without things. You know basic things. We had got some food coupons but I could remember a funny thing mother used to, you only got so much butter and of course mother loved butter so she used to hide it [laughs] so we couldn’t have it. It was quite funny.
HD: What sort of meals did you have?
MG: Anything she could cook up really.
Other: Rabbit stew.
MG: Rabbits, yes. A lot of rabbit stew. I couldn’t bear a rabbit now. The thought of it turns your stomach up, but we used to have spam fritters, where she would dip the spam in batter and fry them. They were quite nice actually. Things like that, you know. She would make up things.
HD: Did you grow your own vegetables at all?
MG: I don’t know. Yes, we did. Yeah.
HD: Yes. Everyone had to be very resilient and self-sufficient.
MG: Yes.
HD: So what happened when it was your birthday?
MG: Well, it was celebrated as best we could. Mother did her best, you know. She would make us cake and yeah. We were alright.
HD: And did you have toys and things to play with?
MG: Things were given to us. Yeah, I mean, by the time I moved to Skegness I was past the toy stage really because I was in Senior School. I was twelve. Nearly thirteen. [dogs barking] Yeah. I remember us having to take an old pram to fetch coke for the fire from the gas place in Skegness. That was after we moved because you got it cheap. We couldn’t afford coal. Things were scarce still for years after the war. Couldn’t just go into the shop and buy things like we would now. I used to save my sugar every time they had a cup of tea or anything in the house, my mother and father I used to put it in to a bag, my spoonful of sugar because that was the only way we could have sweets. And then there was a little shop down near the city that sold sweets in place of sugar. So that’s how we got sweets.
HD: What type of sweets?
MG: Boiled sweets. Just homemade boiled sweets. That was an exciting time when you took your bag of sugar for your sweets because otherwise we wouldn’t have had anything like that.
HD: So how did you feel when your little sister came along?
MG: Oh, I was quite thrilled with her at the time [laughs] but not so much when I had to take her everywhere with me. I used, I used to leave her with my friend’s mum. I don’t think mother ever knew did she?
Other: Probably not.
MG: No.
Other: I can’t ever remember that so obviously it didn’t do me any harm, did it?
MG: No. No. She looked after you.
HD: But you and your brother had a lot of responsibility in the home helping your mother.
MG: Yes. I think my brother did particularly because no father there he was the, he thought he was the head of the house so he’d got quite a bit of responsibility.
HD: At a very young age.
MG: Yes. Yes. I need to fetch a hankie. Would you do me a favour, Sue?
[pause]
MG: I didn’t have this problem in Eastbourne.
HD: Well, it’s been fascinating hearing about your memories, and such a vast array as well.
MG: I mean there’s a lot you don’t remember. Probably because you don’t want to remember. Your mind —
HD: Did you have a lot of friends your age?
MG: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We made friends down in Gloucestershire. Of course, during the war you lost a lot of your friends during the, you know everybody moving around and going, were evacuated a lot of them. So you lost touch with a lot of them. We hadn’t got iPads and things where we could just get in touch. So —
HD: So what, was there a person who was your stable influence during those times when you were a child?
MG: Just mother really.
HD: A strong lady.
MG: She was a strong, a very strong lady. I mean, she only came up to my shoulder. She was small but my goodness she ruled us with a rod of iron didn’t she? She was quite strict.
HD: But that was good in a way.
MG: Oh yes. Yes.
HD: Yes. And is there anything else you would like to add?
MG: Not really. Just we hope we never have another war like it. We hope for our grandchildren’s sake etcetera that it never happens again.
HD: Well, thank you ever so much for taking the time and for giving us an insight into your memories. It’s very kind of you. Thank you.
MG: That’s alright.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Margaret Givens
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Helen Durham
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGivensM180723
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:32:03 audio recording
Language
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eng
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Coventry
England--Skegness
England--Warwickshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Margaret Givens grew up in Coventry and witnessed the bombing of the city. She and other children sat on the bricks of the destroyed cathedral to attend a service. Her house was bombed and while she and her brother was staying with her grandmother that house was also bombed and they were thrown to the waiting arms of neighbours as there was no other escape route. Her parents were trapped in a burning building and had to be rescued. They spent Christmas in an air raid shelter because they had nowhere else to go and spent some of the day in the bombed out wreckage of her grandmother’s house. Margaret and her brother were evacuated and although she focuses on the happy times when they learned to play the piano and feed the animals on the farm there were also bullies among the local children who taunted and hurt them. The family were separated for two and a half years. Margaret’s father was in the Home Guard and saw many horrendous sights. His mental health was already fragile and his health deteriorated. The family decided to move away from Coventry in the hopes this would help him. During the transition time Margaret’s mother left her handbag on a window sill and Margaret witnessed a thief stealing it. The loss of the ration coupons was another blow to the family.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
bombing
civil defence
evacuation
home front
Home Guard
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/838/10830/AGoslingC180907.2.mp3
639de03fe257ad2fae5048ea550420f1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gosling, Cyril
C Gosling
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Corporal Cyril Gosling (1923 - 2019, 1512679 Royal Air Force). He served as an armourer with 49 and 617 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Gosling, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: So, this is Susanne Pescott. I’m interviewing Corporal Cyril Gosling today at his home in Oldham. I’m interviewing today for International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive and we’re at Cyril’s home. It’s the 7th of September 2018. Also present at the interview is Cyril’s daughter Gillian. So, first of all Cyril thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today.
CG: You’re welcome.
SP: So, do you want to tell me a little bit about life before the RAF? When were you born Cyril?
CG: The address?
SP: So, what date were you born?
CG: 1923.
SP: 1923.
CG: First of the seventh 1923.
SP: Brilliant. And where did you live then?
CG: Golden street. 47 Golden Street, Oldham.
SP: Oldham. Yeah. Yeah. And what was life like in the early years for you?
CG: A bit, a bit rough. I wanted to go into engineering but mother said, ‘Ooh it’s too it’s not for you that. I’m going to get you in a shop.’ A grocer’s shop who lived next door to me. Literally, you know. So, I finished up early on in this shop. The grocer’s shop. And that were alright, you know running around with a bicycle like I was doing. And then what happened to it? Now [pause] I finished up getting fed up with it. Complaining to mother. And this lady came into the shop. I were cleaning the, you know, all the equipment in the shop and this lady dashed in and said, ‘Can you give me a half a pound of bacon, I’m in a hurry.’ I said, ‘I’ve just stripped it down. The machine.’ And I said, ‘Well, because it’s you I’ll do it.’ But so, without a to do, without putting the machine together again I ploughed on. [stress] ‘Oh. I’m sorry I’ve just cut my finger [laughs]
SP: So, you cut your off finger on the machine.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: On the bacon machine.
GC: You were only fourteen, weren’t you?
CG: So, I finished up at hospital. We didn’t have a car in those days. I went on the bus to the Oldham hospital and I were getting off half way there and mum said, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘Well, to the pictures. I always go to the pictures Tuesday afternoon. Because the shop’s closed.’
GC: On the way back.
CG: On the way back.
GC: From the hospital.
CG: Anyway, I sat through my normal journey, you know. When I come back she played heck with me and I got back home. I got through, sat through these films which I liked and she said, ‘You’d better go and see Mr Livingstone.’ That was the manager of the Oldham shop. ‘Why?’ ‘He’s in bed poorly.’ ‘Why, what am I supposed to do?’ And she played hell with me then. She said, ‘You go gadding out, go to the pictures and there’s poor Mr Livingstone in bed poorly.’
GC: With shock [laughs]
SP: Yeah. And that Mr Livingstone was the, ran the grocers’, the manager of the grocers.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Yeah.
CG: And that’s it. So, I had to go around one or two people who heard about it got a shock, friends like. So anyway, I said, ‘I’ve had enough of this.’ War was just starting.
SP: Ok. Yeah.
CG: I said I want to join up.
GC: At the Local Defence Volunteers. Talk about the Local Defence Volunteers. Dad’s Army.
CG: Oh, that were it. Sorry. Yeah. I jumped in. Dad’s, you know, Dad’s Army. So, without any further ado I went to the local part of it asking for volunteers and I signed up there and then. And I said I worked for a store in Oldham. I volunteered. Anyway, I signed up and it was just like, like it is on television then [laughs] yeah.
SP: What sort of things did you do in the Defence League?
CG: It were just like it said on television.
GC: Dad tell them about when you thought a paratrooper had dropped down when you were on guard duty.
CG: Oh that.
SP: So, they thought, yeah, so in Oldham they thought there was a paratrooper arrived, did they?
CG: Yeah. And we were, we were based at [unclear] Barracks which is in Oldham.
GC: [Up the big hill?]
CG: Yeah. A group of [unclear] on there. And there were one bloke which always amuses me when it comes on. He would start by, like it was on, and he used to anything like this. He would say, ‘Don’t flap. Don’t flap,’ you know. And he was. Anyway, when I come through, he calls me, official, you know. So we’re up at the top there. And this bloke was always shouting, ‘Don’t panic. We’ll sort it out.’ Anyway, we went off. Four of us there. Four of us looking for this parachutist. And he called to me and —
GC: Denshaw.
CG: Denshaw over that way. Anyway, it seems daft now but we had search parties out. All looking for him. We never found him.
SP: They never knew what it was then?
CG: Not really.
SP: No. So, after the Defence League in Oldham you then decided to join up did you say?
CG: Yeah. Joined up.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, what, what made you decide on the RAF?
CG: It’s funny. I don’t know.
GC: They said that he’d got flat feet. The army.
CG: I, I don’t know. Passed me.
GC: Didn’t they tell you you had flat feet?
CG: Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Flat feet. So, they suggested the RAF.
CG: I fancied it.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But they turned me at down first.
SP: Right.
CG: Because I had flat feet.
SP: Right.
CG: Anyway, after struggling they accepted me. So, we went to Padgate which is, do you know it? [Crowmarsh?] Blackpool of course. Roughed it.
SP: So, what was life like in black, what was it like in Blackpool during your training?
CG: Well, all I can say, there were hundreds of young ladies chasing our uniform [laughs]. So, and then from there we went to Filey. You know it?
SP: Yes. Over to the east coast.
CG: Yes.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
GC: His fitter’s course.
CG: Did our square bashing and what have you.
GC: Kirkham. You went to Kirkham to do your fitter’s course.
CG: Oh yeah. Sorry.
GC: Tell her about when you had to take your turn of doing guard duty. When you were patrolling around in that blizzard and you were all wrapped up.
CG: This is one of many things. This camp is, you know, for fitters. Teaching fitters. Anyway, it was winter and I were on guard duty in the camp. It was snowing and I marched up and down because it was, I were cold. Suddenly Filey disappeared. I didn’t realise. There was so much straw and I sunk into a big hole in the ground.
SP: Right.
CG: Fortunately, the corporal who was bringing a chap to replace me and I had all the equipment on me. Rifle, everything, you know. So, I was shouting out and he was shouting, ‘Where are you?’ I said, ‘In the water.’ And they dragged me out and it was so freezing out there. The corporal, he had a phone. I don’t know where that come from but he got, got me out, you know and leads to the M O station and they said, ‘You’re lucky. If he hadn’t have caught you you’d have been passed away.’ You know, it was in the hole because it was freezing. Anyway —
GC: You got two weeks survivor’s leave didn’t you?
CG: Yeah. I don’t know why I’m here. If they can do that to me [pause] anyway [laughs]
SP: So, what, what sort of things did you learn on the fitter’s course? What was the training?
CG: It was guns. You know, things like that. We went to the fitter’s camp to —
GC: That was your next bit. Eventually you moved to Scampton.
CG: Yeah.
GC: Where you were a fitter/gun armourer.
CG: Yeah. I were a gun armourer. Needed fitting a bit. Everything, you know.
GC: You had to make sure that the turrets on the planes were working and that the ammunition was laid out correctly.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, what would it be like? So, did the, on an operation and the planes would land. Or pre-operation what would your role be? What would you do before the planes went out and when the planes came back?
CG: I had to load the guns. You know, with the ammunition. The turrets. Making sure they were working alright. Then we’d go out on trial runs over the sea. Over that way, you know. That way. And, well all of the, all the engines were [pause] oh it brought down one of the engines. Nothing to do with me actually but, and he, the pilot said, ‘Right. We’re in trouble here. One engine’s packed in. We’ve got to get back to shore.’ Well actually we were practicing these, with these engines and firing them to the —
SP: To the drogue was it?
CG: Yeah.
SP: When you went out practicing firing on the planes.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, did you actually go on the flights with them for that?
CG: Oh yes. Yeah.
SP: Right.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Was that to check that all the machinery was working?
CG: That’s right. We fired at a drogue. What they called a —
SP: A drogue. Yeah.
CG: [unclear]
SP: Yeah. So, the drogue was for you to, the guns to aim at, wasn’t it?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Anyway, it [pause] he said we’ll have to jettison. He said we’ll have to get out of the plane. And what was it now. Like abandon ship kind of thing, you know. Anyway, we had the door open. Open the door, Jumped out. Anyway, when we looked across, we could see the shoreline like. They could see there were a trawler from one of the boats from [pause] what do they call the place?
SP: It’s alright. From one of the ports. One of the boats did you say could see you?
CG: Could see. Yeah. Could see it coming out fast because two of the blokes had dropped out.
SP: So, they’d baled out.
CG: Baled out. Yeah. And I didn’t go. I didn’t go. Two went and they got picked up. You could see them in the water. Anyway, he carried on then because he could see his men were alright, you know. We didn’t go back to, we went back to Waddington. That’s wasn’t ours. Scampton was our place.
GC: You didn’t jump because the pilot said it was ok, didn’t he?
CG: Yeah.
GC: He said everything was ok. Picked up.
CG: Yeah.
GC: So, you didn’t jump.
CG: Yeah.
GC: Saved you having a, saved you having a soaking in the sea.
CG: Anyway, it did, it did, it did crash land but it was only at Waddington. It’s not far away. Well it’s a big place.
SP: What was the landing like then because obviously you were coming in with a damaged, was it a damaged engine did you say? Yeah. So, what was that like for you to come in on a damaged engine?
CG: Well I were in the rear turret and I didn’t know any better and the pilot said, ‘They’ve shook me up so much,’ He crash landed actually because he come down and he finished up in doc for that. He was a nice lad. Because I dressed out in blue, hospital blue. Slouching around, you know [unclear]
SP: So, was anyone injured on the, was anyone actually injured on the landing or was everybody ok?
CG: They bumped me.
SP: Shook up. Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Ok.
CG: So it were, where did I go from there? Oh, I went in doc. In doc.
SP: So, you’d have to get back to Scampton.
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah. Was the plane repaired then at Waddington? Or —
CG: It were, yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But I didn’t go in that. I got in the ambulance, you know, to the hospital
SP: Yeah.
CG: Take over. Sat back and enjoyed myself [laughs] Where did I go from there?
SP: So just about your time still at Scampton. So, you’d check the guns. You’d, you’d go on the flights to check that everything was working.
CG: Oh yeah, I was —
SP: Yeah. What would you do when you were on the ground during the day? What would be a typical fitter’s —
CG: Yeah.
SP: You know.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Armourer’s day? What would that be like for you?
CG: Firstly, the turrets. You know, the turrets. Automatic you know. We had to make sure they were all geared up. Working right. Fitted all the turrets with hundreds and hundreds of bullets and stuff like that. We had, we went back to Kirkham more knowledgeable you know, [laughs] Which was going to Blackpool because Kirkham — Blackpool. Kirkham. Any excuse.
SP: So, going for more training. Was that because things changed like different types of plane had different turrets, different guns?
CG: Oh yeah. Yeah.
SP: So, would that be going to be upskilled on different types of guns or did you have to just to keep your knowledge every year or something?
CG: Well, I kept going back to Kirkham to pick up. They’d teach you there. We just, not enough. They were sat up there.
SP: Right.
CG: On this, you know firing of these ground level, you know. We did that several times so I got [unclear]
SP: So, did you work with a particular crew or did you work on all the planes? Or were you linked more to one plane and one crew. Or —
CG: For the two. I were attached to two flights because I went to Scampton then and that’s where I were fully qualified.
SP: Right.
CG: You know, I were fully but —
GC: You had Hampdens. And then you moved on to Manchesters before you got the Lancasters. When you were with 49 Squadron, before you went to 617.
CG: I think I’ll put my hat and coat on.
SP: And go [laughs] So what were the, you know obviously some very early planes there with Hampdens and that. And Wellingtons. What did you think of those planes compared to your Lancasters?
CG: Rubbish. I must admit we landed several times. Crashed.
SP: On which plane? Was it the Manchester did you say?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Horrible.
SP: Yeah. A lot of people said it was quite a very difficult plane.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, you had a few crashes in that. On landing.
CG: Oh God. It were more or less a clapped-out rubbish aircraft.
SP: Yeah.
CG: You more or less landed them, you know?
SP: Yeah .
GC: Dad, you said often that you would see planes limping home in flames. And you’d see them coming in where the bank of trees was. And they were, they were very, it were very, your heart were in your mouth waiting for them.
CG: Oh yeah.
GC: Wasn’t it? You know. Whether they would make the runway.
CG: Yeah. This is now wartime. You know. Proper war time.
GC: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I mean they come over, you know. Landing.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But, you know, they were your friends, you know.
GC: And the hydraulics failed didn’t they? And they belly flopped, and if you were in that rear gun turret you didn’t stand much a chance did you? In the back.
SP: So, can you talk me through one, maybe an operation that you’d watched go out and you were waiting to come back where there were some problems. What was that like? Waiting around for the planes to come back?
CG: Horrible. Yeah. You know. Especially if you see one coming and it had been shot at and it were all in flames going over the top of these trees. I don’t know why there were all these trees in the way. I saw all that, you know. But anyway, it was rough.
SP: So, did you see any that actually didn’t make it?
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. Yeah.
SP: What was it like then on the base when —?
CG: It was horrible because the turrets were electric you know and if they’d shot up. The plane. The electrics didn’t shut off, you know. So, the person who was in that turret he can’t move it.
SP: Right.
CG: So, he’s stuck in there until one of his mates come from the mid-upper turret and winds it by hand. You know, the electrics are gone.
SP: Right.
CG: But —
SP: So was that the case for some of them where they couldn’t get to the rear gunner because of the electrics going.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Right.
CG: But, yeah [pause] happened anyway. We’re still, it was still like, how shall I put it [pause] it’s was all going ahead now with a proper war you know.
SP: Yeah.
CG: So, there was so many accidents, you know. I mean, I lost one or two friends you know. But they had been loading the bombs up. And they’d sit on them while they went out to dispersal [unclear] and there would be many accidents where it’s gone up. You know.
SP: So, the armourers would sit on the bombs as they went out to the planes. And what would cause the, the bombs to go off?
CG: I don’t —
SP: Just —
CG: I don’t [unclear] it. I think they were bouncing too much, you know. But they sat on them and went up with them.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I never did that.
SP: No.
CG: I went to dispersal on a bike.
SP: Yeah. And did you have a set dispersal point that you’d go to?. Were you allocated to a set dispersal point where you’d always go to and look after the plane that landed there?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. And was that far away from where you were based?
CG: It wasn’t far and we used to, well we were given bicycles. Used to [pause]
SP: Yeah.
CG: But there was lots of things. Had to keep up with 58 Squadron. they were never, I’d never heard of that one before but it came from somewhere outlandish. I don’t know where it was but they parked them way out.
SP: Right.
CG: There must have been a reason for it because, well I know there’d be a reason for it. You know. What shall we say [unclear] we had flares you know.
SP: Fido? Was it the runway did you say, with flares?
CG: No. These flares. This was something to do with 58. Something. I think it was that. It’s gone now.
GC: 58 Squadron.
CG: Yeah. I’m not sure.
SP: Ok.
CG: But they were right out at dispersal but, and obviously they loaded it with the flares. And the bloke, it was dipping, and I remember that [pause] helping out because officially I was nothing to do with that squadron. I don’t know where they come from, but he pulls, he loaded this big flare. He set out and he got all the, blew that one up. It blew nearly every one of them up with people.
SP: Really, right.
CG: Yeah.
GC: Good job it were a bit far out. That’s bad isn’t it. So about three planes went up didn’t they?
CG: Yeah.
GC: Because the flare went off.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Right.
GC: And that were when they were on the ground.
CG: That’s right.
SP: And which airfield was that at. That was, was that when you were at Scampton or at one of the other —?
SP: Yeah
SP: At Scampton. Ok.
CG: Yeah. Nothing really, nothing doing.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I don’t know why a full squadron was on. On that Scampton crew. But they played it down of course.
SP: Well, you were at an airfield where obviously 617 Squadron were so —
CG: Yeah.
SP: You had quite a lot of inventive things going on there didn’t you, on that?
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, did you meet or see anyone at that time from 617 Squadron?
GC: He was in it.
SP: But any of the crew? Did you work on their planes then for 617 Squadron, on their practicing or —
CG: Oh honest, we were right. What it was they wanted to create a squadron and we had planes that they had and all, but mine was 49 Squadron. Apparently, they was told to create, to go around picking the best people up and create a squadron which was 617 Squadron. You know what it was, you know and they pinched two of my planes from 49 Squadron.
SP: Right.
CG: So, and then we moved over.
SP: So, you went with them because they wanted the best fitters as well.
CG: Yeah. Oh yeah. Put it that way, yeah. In fact —
SP: So, the planes that you moved over with from 49, were any of those involved on the Dambusters run itself or were they —?
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. He was told to create —
SP: Yeah.
CG: A full squadron. Create a unit. 617 Squadron. So, they did all right. He had this dog [unclear] I’m losing it.
SP: No, you’re alright.
CG: Like a —
SP: Is this Guy Gibson’s dog?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Guy Gibson’s dog, N*****?
CG: Yeah. Oh N*****. Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: He got, he got killed didn’t he? I don’t know whether you read it but, our pilot —
GC: You used to take it for a walk.
CG: I’d take it for a walk.
SP: So was this part of your duties. To walk the dog.
CG: Yes.
GC: When he was, when Guy Gibson was out on duty he looked after his dog sometimes and took it for walks.
CG: And then some silly so and so [unclear] but another, a corporal had the job of looking after that dog.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And he let it loose and he got run over it, didn’t he? [unclear] but it got run over by a taxi outside the camp which [unclear] upset Guy Gibson.
GC: Well it would wouldn’t it?
SP: So, did you meet Guy Gibson then?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that? Meeting Guy Gibson. What was he like? What —
CG: He was alright. A bit, you know, stultified. Yeah. He were alright to talk to. Yeah.
SP: You saw Barnes Wallis knocking about, didn’t you?
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, Barnes Wallis as well. So, so he went up to Scampton. To the base while you were there.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, what, what would a day be like working with the 617 Squadron, or the Dambusters? Because they were testing different things wouldn’t they? So, was your job slightly different when you were working with them to when you were working with 49 Squadron?
CG: Well, they had more flying tests because obviously part of it over water, skimmed over the water. We had to do that.
GC: You went over Derwentwater didn’t you? Where they did the test. You were low flying over there in the, in the tail of a Lancaster.
SP: So, you went up on your normal testing of the guns when they were doing the low-level flying.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Do you want to tell me about one of those trips?
CG: There’s a big photograph of it in my bedroom.
GC: It’s in there.
SP: Well take a photo and put it with the recording but what was it like flying at that low level compared to when you’d gone up previously on the —
CG: Yeah. It’s funny when you went up for a test flight. By being right at the front of it you look as though you were flying, you were flying the plane, you know. Just like that. This was very low flying. And the pilot were in front of you, and he’d be only that far from it, and I’m saying to the pilot ‘Pick it up, pick it up. You’re too low,’ and he was, he was about that far from the ground. He gave that impression because he was just so low.
SP: Yeah.
CG: You felt like you were flying that plane you know.
SP: You were so close to the water.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: So —
SP: So do you know who the pilot was who you went with that day?
CG: No.
SP: No.
CG: I’m sorry. I’ve got it down somewhere.
SP: That’s alright. It would be one of the Dambusters guys doing their practice.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And then we, we had some mishaps, you know.
SP: Ok. Do you want to tell me about any of those? What happened? The mishaps.
GC: Didn’t you say the Lancasters always had, you always thought they had a weak undercarriage and they tended to fold on landing.
CG: Oh yeah.
GC: Yeah. And that made you crash a couple of times didn’t it?
CG: Yeah.
GC: And when you were in the rear turret it meant you were thrown about a lot and you were black and blue.
CG: I finished up in hospital.
GC: You ended up at Blackpool again, didn’t you?
CG: In hospital. Yeah.
GC: In your hospital blue. Bruised. Blues. Said it was with the bruising and got the girl’s attention. He’s a right flirt.
CG: Apparently I finished with [unclear] with everything.
SP: So obviously there was problems with the undercarriage. What other mishaps were there with the other things?
CG: Sorry?
SP: You said there were a few other mishaps. Obviously, the undercarriage issues. Anything else?
CG: Yeah.
GC: Tell you some other bit of mishaps what about when the bombing was worse and you worked for three and a half days without sleep and you had to go and get some more bombs because you ran out.
CG: Oh yeah. At Scampton. We were there.
GC: Waddington.
CG: Waddington. We ran out of bombs so we got a big transport and went from Scampton down to the centre of Lincoln. Down by the cathedral. Pinched the bombs and come back through Lincoln.
SP: With all the bombs [laughs] through the centre of Lincoln.
CG: They acquired these. They were on the, they were loaded on these trailers and we were going back up the hill towards the cathedral. The last bomb, they weren’t bombed up by the way but it could have gone off.
GC: They were unarmed. Yeah.
CG: But it was these so-called mates of mine they were sat on these trailers again. On the wagons, you know. And it was going up the hill and this chap, he kicked the wedge from underneath this bomb and it started rolling from half way up the hill down to the bottom. ‘It’s a bomb. Get off the road,’ It rolled down the road. I can laugh now but —
SP: Some steep hills in Lincoln for that bomb to roll down weren’t there?
CG: It was. You’d have got, first you’d got it was, the bomb more or less rolled, only one road. Wedged it up. What do you call it [unclear] the wedges got thrown off so —
GC: What about the night when there was an attack on the base from German fighters and you digged up that tripod with the Lewis gun?
CG: Well, I mean, the, trying to pick my brains there. I created a Lewis gun which is —
GC: Strapped to the tripod.
CG: Yeah.
GC: To try and get the German.
[pause]
SP: So, you were telling me about the tripod that you made.
CG: It was just, yeah, we put, instead of firing one Lewis gun I put two together. Fired them both together, you know. But and I could, build it around and I got a tripod too. And I got the shock of my life. I was in this, you know. Flight, yeah. I didn’t think that it were about from here to in there.
SP: So about six feet away, yeah.
CG: With this German plane going past I could have shook hands with the bloke. It seemed my impression. And no matter what, everybody said it were me what shot him down.
SP: So, you shot at the plane. Was this a plane coming in strafing the —
CG: Yeah. It were German.
SP: A German one. Just on his own? One or was there more night fighters.
CG: Just one.
SP: One. Right.
CG: Yeah. So afterwards we heard that he’d been shot down. We all claimed it [laughs] And so we all hopped onto transport of all kinds. Went out. [unclear] where I pinched this gun, German gun. Naughty. He shouldn’t do that.
SP: So, you took the gun off the pilot? Yeah. What type of gun was it?
CG: [unclear]
SP: It’s alright. Yeah.
GC: You said before was it a luger. A Luger gun [unclear]
CG: Yeah. It was a Luger.
SP: Yeah.
CG: It was a Luger. I was thinking it was a bigger one but it wasn’t.
SP: So, you took that gun off him and when did you have to give it back. Straight away or —
CG: The civilian — not civilian but our —
SP: Military police.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: They took it off for an enquiry.
SP: So, you lost that.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, did you get up to any other incidents with your firing or shooting?
GC: Oh, in promotion you were put in charge of the firing range at Scampton weren’t you? Tell them about —
SP: Sorry?
GC: When you got a bit of a promotion you were put in charge of the firing range at Scampton. And you know they had that stockpile of old grenades. Well, tell them what you did with them grenades.
CG: Oh yeah. I mean
GC: Springs had gone weren’t it?
CG: Scampton is an old, you know, well known and —
GC: They were rusty, them grenades. You’re going to knock it off.
SP: So, this pile of grenades Cyril. These were old that were rusty, yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. What did you have to do with them?
CG: Well, they wanted to get rid of them. The idea was to get rid of them anyway. But they were really going off and it’s, the CO said he thought I had to, that there was three grenades and of course I was involved with armaments stuff that were fitted and clearing it. And it were, there were built a pit and I’m stood behind this bloke who happened to be a cook. He come pfft.
SP: So, he pulled the pin out.
CG: He pulled the pin out and threw it at me. Just a silly so and so, you know. Where did it land? Right at my feet. So quick as a flash I dived at it. Knocked him flat on his face. I mean. And it were up in the air and it went off.
SP: So, you kicked the grenade away and it went off.
CG: It was just like that. They put me through for an award but I never. I don’t know what happened [unclear]
[recording paused]
SP: So, Cyril you were saying as well that on one occasion you were issued with a 20mm aircraft cannon. So, do you want to tell me a little bit about that?
CG: Well, I don’t know where they got it from. It were my idea but I mean obviously we had smaller cannon. Like smaller than they have on ships you know. You know they were quite, you know and the thing is the spring on that that type of cannon you see them on the, on the ship. They’re like that.
SP: So, it made you judder. It was really powerful. Yeah. You’re showing me how you were really juddering it. Yeah.
CG: Yeah. So, I told them my bloke’s in charge of them. I said this one is going to vibrate so it’s a long barrel and it’s going to. You’re going to tie a rope around and you go down your side and you were there to hold it down. To, and then keep it down otherwise they’d be all up in the air. It sounds like brrrrr going on the left hand side, let go and it went up in the air straight over. See, there was a bank you were firing in to. But obviously by letting it go that it went up into the air. Anyway, the farmer he was following me, was er, round wondering what was happening, you know. And he was rather uncouth. He was swearing.
SP: So why did the farmer come around?
CG: He saw me, I, me who shot the cow.
SP: So, when the gun went up and it shot over the bank it had killed a cow. So were you in trouble for that or —
CG: I was. Yeah. But we pacified the farmer by volunteer begrudgingly and he obviously did this, and he come and this talk of where it was, he cooked. Cooked. And I said, ‘I can’t eat that. I’ve just shot him,’ and I wouldn’t but some did.
SP: Yeah. So, they actually ate it on base.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Bring it round. So, you did everyone a favour that day didn’t you? They were getting some nice beef on that day. Yeah.
CG: A favour. There were some remarks about it.
SP: So, what was food like on base generally?
CG: Oh, it were alright because we were well established, you know. We were well doted on. Yeah. It were quite good.
SP: So, would you eat in the mess every day?
CG: No.
SP: No.
CG: No, it were mainly officers.
SP: Right. So, where did you eat during the day then? Was it just —
CG: Just [pause] we had our own place.
SP: Right.
CG: You know.
SP: So was it a hut designed for fitters.
CG: Yeah.
SP: And armourers etcetera. Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So that’s where you’d see your friends and that.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, what did you do on the days when you weren’t working? Did you get days off? What would you do on a day off?
CG: I, one of the chaps he got, he was being moved out of the camp and he had a motorbike. A rather expensive one and he was moving out the same day. Posted somewhere else and he had to get rid of this motorbike. I’d never had one in my life and he had about two hours to sell this. Anyway, it were a nice bike and I bought it for five pound. And I’d never driven a bike in my life, especially one like that. Anyway, I get on. This bloke showed me how to do it. [unclear] The bike were a livewire. You could call it. To go in to the café not café. You know where you eat.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And how am I going to get it to stop? ‘Cause it wasn’t that wide the path. Anyway, without any further ado I thought somebody open the door for me. And they did. I went straight in to the door on this side. Wrapped it up. So, I flogged it to somebody else.
SP: That was the end of your biking days.
CG: Two hours. Two hours I had to, I bought it, sort of thing. I’ve never had one since.
SP: No.
CG: No way.
SP: So, it wasn’t your transport into Lincoln was it, then?
CG: Yeah.
GC: Pushbike instead.
SP: So, yeah, you went on pushbike into Lincoln from then on, did you? You went on pushbike into Lincoln after those days.
CG: After that.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: And where did you go in Lincoln? Was there anywhere in particular all the ground crew would go?
CG: Yes. I’d say the ground but officers went there.
SP: Yeah.
GC: Dragging his brains now, trying to remember.
SP: Yeah.
GC: You’ve told me this many times and I’ve forgotten myself dad.
CG: Have you?
GC: That pub in Lincoln. What’s it called? I bet you don’t know.
SP: So, you’d mainly go in to a pub where everybody tended to meet in Lincoln.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, what was life like in that pub? What’s a typical night like that? Mad?
CG: There might be fifty people.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. All of them mainly on bikes.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Oh, come on Gillian.
GC: Go on prompting. Put him out of his misery. He don’t know.
[recording paused]
SP: Ok. So, you remember the name of your pub? What was it?
CG: Yeah. This mate of mine. He opened a pub.
SP: And that was the Adam and Eve.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And he used to bribe some of his mates to stand in for him so he could run his own pub, you know. Without any trouble. And all the officers knew, you know. He said they’re on duty that night but he wanted to be at this pub. So, he would slip, he would slip to, oh dear. So, he’d get as many as, roughly fifty, more sometimes.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I think he made a lot of money. He used to bribe ‘em.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But it were a laugh when we were all in because the roads, they all were on pushbikes on the road that way. All on country roads and it was a laugh were getting your mates on to, on their bike and push them off into it.
SP: So, this was after all the drinking. You’d have to weave your way back on bikes. Yeah.
CG: We had to.
SP: And how far was it? About.
CG: What? Back to camp?
SP: Yeah. About. How far back to camp?
CG: Oh, about seven. Seven, seven miles.
SP: Seven miles is quite a distance to wobble on a bike. Yeah. So, Cyril you were based at Scampton for quite some time with the armoury.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Obviously a key part of checking all those planes ready for the Dambusters raid. And obviously you were there at the time of the Dambusters raid and after and obviously saw Guy Gibson, Barnes Wallis and had actually taken the famous dog for a walk as well. So obviously some really important role, or a really important role by yourself during then. So, once you’d finished at Scampton you then ended up going to Canada. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that?
CG: Well, I was, I knew, it was explained to me that they wanted to destroy — what did they call it? Lease lend. British American stuff. They didn’t want it. They’d lent it to us. We didn’t want it. They didn’t want it. So, they decided all of it but we had the job of destroying it all. It was hundreds of thousands of dollars of [ brute? ] blown up. Everything. All new stuff. They just didn’t want it. We didn’t want it. We had fifteen blokes working. Destroying it, you know. New stuff. Flying jackets. Everything. It were a full time up. It dwindled off finally. You know. Then we started enjoying ourself.
SP: So, where was this? Where were you based? This was in Canada was it? You had to go over to Canada to destroy.
CG: Oh no. In the camp.
SP: In England.
CG: No.
SP: Sorry.
CG: Sorry. It were over there.
SP: Right. So over, yeah.
CG: They took us over there.
SP: So, you went over there to do the destroying and that. Yeah.
CG: Yeah. A base on a Canadian camp. But they had nothing to do with me. I were in sole charge of all, of all the information to me and I decided. The only thing is I were a fitter armourer not a bomb armourer. Things like, I had to fathom it out. Sort it out. How to destroy. Let it burn, burn, burn in big furnaces.
SP: How long were you in Canada for?
CG: I were there ten months.
SP: Ten. Ten months, right.
CG: In that time, I nearly went back because when I got out there it worries you. High up people you know. And as soon as they finished they packed in and went and they left me to look after everything, you know [laughs] Ridiculous.
SP: So, this was at the end of the war obviously.
CG: Yes.
SP: So how did, did you get de-mobbed then or —
CG: No.
[recording paused]
SP: So, Cyril we were just going to talk about your demob but before then we’ll talk a little bit about your time in Canada. So, on your days off I believe you went down to New York?
CG: I went New York, Chicago, Montreal, Nova Scotia. All over. And in New York we found out if you go to this place in New York this person was a multi-millionaire and he, we had it, just two of us being fed. You’ve never seen anything like it. You only see them on telly. All the stairs was divided up and all the gold. This chap a multimillionaire. And it was all genuine and we got it all free for a whole week. And we waited. Waited and everything. There was girls there. This older lady used to come in and she brought these young girls in. ‘Do you want to go anywhere in New York? Just tell me and I’ll get tickets for you.’ We got it, that flat. I’ve never seen in my life a staircase going like that. Just like that.
SP: And that’s just because you were in RAF uniform?
CG: Yeah. Precisely.
SP: Yeah.
CG: [unclear] I mean it was laughable. I’ve got to tell you the bit. These mates that got brought over here I used to say to them, they actually took over a cinema in the camp and this captain used to —
GC: It’s fine.
SP: So —
CG: Yes. She used to come up in a beautiful soft topped thing and I said to these mates of mine, and one said, ‘What’s on tonight?’ I said, ‘What’s on tonight?’ I said, ‘Just come here and look at this. My friends used to come up in a beautiful soft top do, and you only had to go from A to B and the first one comes along and said, ‘Are you English?’ Because the war had finished and they were all, you know, doing. And you were asking me what’s on at night at the pictures. I said, ‘You want an answer do you?’
SP: I believe you saw a few famous people as well while you were there.
CG: Oh, lots of them.
SP: Yeah. Anyone in particular you remember?
CG: Well, Bing Crosby and, he did the abroad. What was it? Bing Crosby. Frank Sinatra. And women. I don’t know I keep losing it. But in fact I’ve got photographs actually somewhere because this is just an hasty look. We’ve got a lot of them.
GC: Yeah. We have.
CG: Yeah. Photos of your time over there in America. Brilliant.
CG: Skated. That was what put me off this because she was so fit. A really fit person. Skated, skied up in the mountains.
GC: Jacqueline.
CG: I saw her, you know. Nice tan on her. And me [laughs]
SP: Yeah. So, whilst you were in New York and you were being treated because of your RAF uniform, in a very special way, you went up the Empire State Building as well.
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. What was that like?
CG: Oh you know, it had had that fire in there. I think you mentioned it didn’t you? When I had come away from it. And yeah. We came away and we had this, this bloke had a camera.
GC: Telescope.
CG: A telescope. This were about a good mile away.
SP: So, you’d been up the Empire State.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Done all your views, come down and there’d been an incident where a plane had gone in to it.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. Well, this but was another one.
SP: Right.
CG: The one had already done that one.
SP: Right.
CG: Gone into it. This was another plane.
SP: Right.
CG: We’d come away from it. We’d come down. Come away. And we come across this bloke reporting it, and we asked and he said, ‘Oh there’s a plane crashed into it.’ It were another one. One of our own. A chap and his wife, she’d had to be, they’d had to be gone in to. I can’t believe it. Just think an hour before it could have been us in there.
SP: You’d have been up there. Yeah. Right. So, was this a small plane?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I forget how much we put in. So many dollars in. It were a few. Crafty this bloke with the telescope.
SP: For people to look. Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Because there was a report that a B25 Mitchell in the fog had gone into it so obviously —
CG: Yeah.
SP: There were some problems around that time so —
CG: Yeah.
SP: But luckily for you, you were in the right place at the right time then weren’t you and you’d come down.
CG: But she said, [unclear] she laughed, when she looked. I said, ‘Oh no, no you outn’t,’ I said. Yes. Anyway, we got on very well then. She was as bad as Jacqueline which was my girlfriend.
SP: So, Jacqueline was your girlfriend in Canada. Yeah. From the family that were up there.
CG: Yeah. Yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, from, after America and then you went back obviously to and from Canada. You came home via Halifax via Nova Scotia, did you? Talk to me about your journey home from Canada.
CG: Funnily enough, yeah. We were going to fly home but we found out there was that plane, not a plane, a ship.
SP: This boat. The HMS —
CG: Yeah. Leticia.
SP: Leticia, yeah.
CG: That was just coming in. It was hours disembarking. And all them from out of that were from England and they were all women and they all had youngsters. You know. They’d got married over here and they were coming to, to live in Canada with baby.
SP: So, their, their boyfriends or husbands were Canadian.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Or American.
CG: Yeah.
SP: And obviously they’d met in the war, in England
CG: That’s right.
SP: And after the war they were going back to live with the families of their crewmen or army.
CG: Well these were, these were actually coming in.
SP: Yeah. From England. The ladies with their children.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Were coming in to Canada.
CG: Yeah.
SP: To live with the force’s, boyfriends and husbands. Right.
CG: We were just the opposite. They were traded. You know after we got off this, off our boat and they were going in the opposite direction. We were talking to them. Yeah. Where do you live? You know.
SP: So I believe you had some fun getting on your, was it on your train towards the ship. You nearly missed it did you?
CG: How did you know that?
SP: Do you want to tell me a little bit about that then?
CG: He put me off.
SP: Yeah. So, you were going to post a letter and —
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: You nearly missed the, oh you did miss the train, didn’t you?
CG: I did.
SP: So how did you catch it up?
CG: Well there was this taxi bloke he, he said we’ll drive, drop you off. He could see what had happened and he said, ‘I’ll try and catch your train up.’ No chance. Anyway, he dropped me off. Then the train [pause] and then we went about ten miles finding an express train. Anyway, we went to the station. It were only a poky little station. I thought it’s never, it’s never going to stop for me here. Anyway, the station master there was the only bloke I could see, and it were, you know, anyway, so I tried. No. I thought it’s not going to stop for me. Anyway, I thought I’d try. He went past me and nearly run me down in the train. But I got chewed up for that. Stopping an express train.
SP: So, you managed to get on.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Right.
CG: Well, the funny thing was I got on board this ship and one or two of my so-called mates said he’s tried to dodge out. He’s tried. All I wanted was to post this card. I said, ‘I want to post this card.’ ‘No, you can’t. You can’t get off.’ He was stopping me moving. You know, moving.
SP: Yeah.
CG: They were winding me up.
SP: So, you got on. How long did it take to get home? Can you remember how long it took on the ship? To sail.
CG: It were only a small ship that I got.
SP: Yeah.
CG: It were luxury because on board were all these women and girls with babies. They’d, they’d turned over like.
SP: Right.
CG: So, you could just imagine and they had the servants, you know, from here. So, we were, there were only fifteen of us and these blokes, English blokes who were more or less with these beautiful girls who’d come over. They were looking after then. They were looking after us then [laughs] honestly. It were like a cruise. It were beautiful. I know it was only a small ship but beautiful.
SP: So, you docked and then you’d go to your demob. Where were you de-mobbed?
CG: Liverpool. Yes. It be so daft. As a mate got out and he was going back with me. We were only, they were only handfuls. Anyway, he was just, you know like how can I make it right? Anyway, how shall I put it [pause] he could go back to his old trade.
SP: Right. Yeah.
CG: But it was when you go abroad and you have these people, you know checking your clothes and all that. What do you call them?
SP: It was like at immigration.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So you were coming in.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Coming in to immigration. Yeah.
CG: Yeah. But, well we didn’t say anything to this other bloke. There was immigration and we were winding him up. They hadn’t noticed ‘cause he’d got his uniform, you know all were in uniform. All the rest of us, nobody, but he didn’t know. And they got panicking because they’d brought cigarettes.
SP: Oh, so they had the cigarettes on them. Yeah.
CG: Millions of them.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And we passed word to this bloke, ‘You’ll have to watch it, Pat’ ‘Why?’ ‘This bloke’s on board doing —,’ and you know lot of cigarettes, all kind of things.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Anyway, the following morning he’s still on board. He still hadn’t checked up. His old mate was there and he were pulling his leg. He didn’t realise it. And the following morning his best friend were looking for him and the ship weren’t a massive one.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But the bay what it had gone in there were millions of cigarettes in boxes all floating around and what had caused it was this bloke saying, I believe this, what do they call them Gillian?
GC: [unclear]
SP: So, they’d all got wet, the cigarettes then.
CG: Oh yeah. They were all floating.
SP: Floating. So at least he got through immigration alright then. He didn’t get in trouble. So you were de-mobbed then. What did you go on to do after the war?
CG: [Francis. Francis’ at Hollywood.]
SP: Right. And what did they do?
CG: Engineering.
SP: Engineering.
CG: Yeah. Yeah.
CG: Which is what you’d wanted to do originally wasn’t it?
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
GC: You were a fitter though.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But I finished up inside the, and I also started building these transformers and what have you, massive things.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And I finished up going all over the place. I got married by then.
GC: You went working on ships, didn’t you?
CG: And I then, I was going on ships, planes all over England.
SP: Right.
CG: and Ireland. That were my job.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And I used to go, they used to be at Harland and Wolff’s building ships there and my job was to go out, check it out, making sure. We used to go north of Scotland on trials and stuff.
SP: Right.
CG: A bit different.
SP: So a lot of travelling.
CG: It was.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I used to fly there.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Part of my job.
SP: And is that what you did ‘til you retired then? Worked in engineering and that.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Brilliant. So obviously you worked in engineering until you retired. When you first got back and you were de-mobbed, I think you met your wife quite soon after the war.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Do you just want to tell me a little bit about that?
CG: Well we both liked dancing, you know and doing —
SP: Where did you meet her? Which dance hall did you meet her in?
CG: I forget what it were called but at the stores.
SP: Right. So, in Oldham.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. You met her there.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Got married soon after.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. And what was your wife’s name?
CG: [laughs]
SP: And your wife’s name was —?
GC: Nora.
SP: Yeah. Your wife’s name was Nora. Brilliant. So, you met her. I think you told me it was love at first sight wasn’t it? Well Cyril it’s been really a pleasure to interview you today.
CG: Oh it is. I’m not. I’ve been losing it. I have. I can’t —
SP: Well you’ve got some fantastic stories there that we can share with people.
CG: Oh I have my [unclear]. Yeah.
SP: We’ll take you some photographs and I’d just like to thank you on behalf of the International Bomber Command for your time today. So, thank you very much Cyril.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Cyril Gosling
Creator
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Susanne Pescott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoslingC180907
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:21:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Cyril Gosling trained as an armourer at Kirby in Blackpool and was first posted to 49 Squadron where he worked on the guns and turrets. As part of his role he would go on flights in the bombers to check the guns accuracy by firing at drogues. On one occasion they had to make an emergency landing when the engine failed. He often rode on the bomb trolleys on their way to the dispersals.
Cyril was chosen to move to 617 Squadron as an armourer when the squadron formed at RAF Scampton. He met Barnes Wallis and knew Guy Gibson, often taking his dog for a walk. Cyril flew in one of the Lancasters as they carried out a test run over the Derwent Water dam. Cyril's memory of the day of Eder, Möhne and Sorpe operation was marred by a tragic event at the base. His friend had a 'dear John' letter from his girlfriend and took his own life in front of Cyril. After the war Cyril moved to Canada and was involved with the destruction of war equipment not longer needed. He was saddened by the fact that along with armaments, they had to destroy clothing which would have been gratefully received by families in England. During his periods of leave he and fellow RAF colleagues went to New York. They were treated in his words like 'Royalty' and put up in hotels for free and were introduced to Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby. Cyril also remembers going up the Empire State Building when later the same day a B-25 Mitchell bomber crashed into it in during thick fog. Cyril return by Ship to England in September 1946.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
Illinois--Chicago
New York (State)--New York
Illinois
New York (State)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
49 Squadron
58 Squadron
617 Squadron
animal
bomb trolley
civil defence
crash
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
Home Guard
Lancaster
Manchester
RAF Kirkham
RAF Scampton
service vehicle
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/866/11107/AHeathRB180313.2.mp3
8617314bcb769f3762451755cf09698a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Heath, Richard
Richard Bingham Heath
R B Heath
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Richard Heath. He grew up near RAF Faldingworth during the war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Heath, RB
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HD: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Hugh Donnelly and the interviewer is Richard Heath. The interview is taking place at Mr Heath’ s home [buzz] Hibaldstow, Lincs and on the 13th of March 2018. Present at the interview is Mr Heath’s wife. That’s it. So —
[pause]
RH: Standing in my back yard we could see the Lancaster bombers flying over the house. I can remember one moonlit night when there were high patched white clouds the black bombers seemed to be silhouetted against the clouds as they made their way east. As a young lad it seemed to take hours for them to pass and for, for the constant hum of the engines to fade into the night. I don’t remember anyone trying to count them. There just seemed to be so many coming from all the corners of the sky. They were all spread out as if nobody wanted to bump in to the others. One morning I remember we were woken early by the sound of what seemed like fireworks exploding in the fields and behind the house and down towards the wood. When we looked out of the window we could see balls of red fire shooting in to the air and we knew they were signal flares. I think my dad got dressed and went to warn the village policeman and Home Guard. He was exempt from military service because he worked on his uncle’s farm but he belonged to the Auxiliary Fire Service and was on call. By the time daylight had arrived we could see what all the fuss was about. A bomber had crash landed in the fields and by then recovery teams from the camp had arrived and were surrounding the crash site and all the crew had been taken to the camp. We did hear that none of the crew had been hurt and very quickly the plane was taken away. I do remember it left a long trench cut into the field and ploughed up a length of hedgerow before finishing up in the next field. A popular [pause] Start again. A popular occupation among the village lads was to cycle out to bomber crash sites around the area and sift through the bits that the recovery teams had left behind.
HD: Can I just interrupt for a second? This was at Faldingworth.
RH: Yeah. This was at Faldingworth.
HD: Sorry.
RH: And sift through the bits that the recovery teams had left behind. The main finds which my brother and I would take home were bullets. We would trap them in the garden pump handle then and using a pair of old pliers take out the pointed bit, pull up one or two strands of cordite, set light to them and stand back and watch the fireworks. That was until our mother caught us and put a stop to this dangerous practice. On one occasion my brother who was two years older than me had gone to a crash site and while searching through the debris had moved a piece of charred cloth and found a human hand. He was so upset by this it took all the excitement out of the game and brought home the reality of the deaths of so many of the airmen. But I don’t think we went searching again. I don’t think as young lads we had any idea what the war was about. Living in the Lincolnshire countryside it was such a long way away and it became exciting to see aeroplanes flying over and rows of soldiers passing through. Sometimes they would be in lorries or Bren gun carriers. And when the Yanks as the American servicemen were known arrived they would throw us sweets and chewing gum. As I got older I began to understand more about the Blitz and the destruction of towns and cities in Britain and the continent. That probably made things more frightening. And towards the end of the war we would sit in the kitchen and listen to Doodlebugs passing over heading for our towns and cities further west. In fact, one night we heard the spluttering of the engine which sounded like a plumber’s blow lamp suddenly stop, and we held our breath waiting for the explosion. I think it must have glided further on because the bang when it came sounded a long way off.
HD: That’s super. Ok. Yeah. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Richard Heath
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHeathRB180313
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:05:56 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Heath remembers watching Lancaster aeroplanes flying in the skies above him from his back yard and listening to the sound of them fade into the night. One morning he could see red flares exploding in fields nearby where a Lancaster from nearby RAF Faldingworth had crashed. His father, an auxiliary fireman got dressed and went into the village to warn the Home Guard and policeman. The crew of the plane were safe and the plane was removed from the site. Richard and his brother would sift through any crash debris and take it home but one day while sifting through items on the ground he found a human hand. Richard and his family listened to V-1s flying over, and on one occasion the engine of one spluttered and it crashed some way off in the distance.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
childhood in wartime
civil defence
crash
home front
Home Guard
Lancaster
RAF Faldingworth
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/872/11112/PHodginM1701.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/872/11112/AHodginM170810.1.mp3
12a01fdddf3f968172ae5cc483a6d41b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hodgin, Margaret
M Hodgin
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Margaret Hodgin (b.1932). She lived near RAF Fiskerton during the war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hodgin, M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SB: This is Suzanne Bellhouse interviewing Mrs Margaret Hodgin. We’re at Margaret’s house in Fiskerton, Lincolnshire. Margaret lived very, very closely to RAF Fiskerton during the war years and she’s going to tell us all her about her experiences and, and what she saw.
MH: Right. The first memory of me, of my, of the war time was my father digging a shelter in the garden and we used to be carried down because I was only seven and my brother was four. And we used to be carried down when the air raids came. But they were, we were quite fortunate where I lived for, being bombed. And, and then later on as the time went on they would, when we went to school we, at Reepham School which was the next village we had to go and walk or cycle about two miles and you always had to take your gas mask with you. If you didn’t, you got halfway there and remembered it, ran back home and my mum coming up the road with it. And, you know, and it’s so vivid what I can remember of all these things. And, and then when we were at school if the, if the siren went we would take, we’d no shelters there. We were taken to houses in the village. Everybody, you know my, me and my brother was taken to a house and all the other children and they used to put us under the, cupboard under the stairs and, and that was at school. And well then going on to the war days, you know to the aerodrome being built I can remember that being done. Now, because we was only two small fields away from the, the ‘drome you could hear the Lancasters revving up to be taken off, you see. Take off. And I used to hear them and run upstairs and open my bedroom window because if the wind was, whichever the wind was as it came our way it, they used to be parallel by my bedroom window, and I could see the crew, the pilot with all his gear on and the one next to him. And I used to write down because it was AE. The number of the ‘drome there was AE1 or, and so on and I used to write. I had a book and I used to write them all down. I mean I was about eleven by then when the, when the ‘drome was, was on. And then I used to try and keep awake at home at night to hear how many came back. And they got to know. Some of them used to actually wave to me. The pilot, because they knew because I used to open the window and really look out and wave and all the rest of it. But the thing is it’s so vivid in my mind that, all that. Well, one Sunday afternoon, and in those days you hadn’t, you had to make your own entertainment. Well, I used to read a lot and I was curled up in a chair reading a book and I heard an aeroplane revving and flew upstairs, opened my window and what was it? A German plane. And I was terrified because, you know it had got the sticker on the thing. And I went down, I said to my mum and dad, ‘It’s a German plane gone past.’ My dad wouldn’t believe me. He said, ‘It never was.’ I said, ‘It was.’ And because it had apparently, this is what we were told later it had got into the, into the rear, near ours to take photographs of the aerodrome and it had come down low to do it and it was just taking away again. But as far as we were told it was shot down over Lincoln. Past Lincoln. So, that was the end of it. To see a German plane going past. I mean to a child it was terrifying and that was a frightening experience to me. Anyway, yeah I used to do it all through the war. Listening for these planes. And I tell you I wrote a book. I put a book with it but I think my mum must have lost it because I haven’t got it now. I wish I had but I haven’t. And I, and I used to really be upset when there was any missing when they came back. And that was my experiences with the Lancasters, you know. But to see them right near your house was amazing really. Yeah. Yeah. It was good. Anyway, I think I’d better stop a minute now.
SB: That was brilliant.
[recording paused]
MH: The war to me was as I said at the beginning that my father built a shelter in the garden and down in the ground and all that. But when the ‘drome was built it was, it was compulsory to have an, I think it was called Anderson but I’m not sure if ours wasn’t called something else. And you had to have them in your house, these shelters and they were absolutely made of steel and oh quite big. I can’t imagine. From that doorway to about there’s big. And there were shiny tops of steel and then there were latts all underneath and my mum put beds in for us and they used to, but it was nearly, I mean I was only in a small house. It nearly filled your room but you had to have them.
SB: Yeah.
MH: Because we lived so near the ‘drome. Yeah. You couldn’t say no. Yeah. And then another experience I can remember so vivid was about the evacuees coming. Now, we didn’t have many because [pause] no this was before the ‘drome was built, these evacuees. And there was quite a big house near me, near us and this lady must have been a bit, I don’t know what you’d call her but she wouldn’t. She refused to have anybody and so they brought a girl to us from Leeds or Liverpool. I can’t remember which, which town it was. I know it was from Yorkshire. And she came to stay at our house. And my mum would bake. Had got some plums all washed ready for making jam because you did everything for yourself in the war and she’d never seen a plum or eaten a plum before and she was so excited with these plums. She was, she was ever such a nice girl. But we weren’t, we wasn’t forced to have anybody because there was, we’d three bedrooms and a boy and a girl, you see. So we weren’t. But they came and asked my mum if she’d have this girl because this lady refused but she was made to have her in the end. And she wrote to us for, oh and then when the aerodrome was built they had to go home wherever they were sent to because of the, it was just as dangerous here as where they came from they thought. But anyway she did write to us quite a bit after. Yeah. I remember that. And there was quite a few evacuees about and they all seemed to settle well. And, and that was that experience you know. And I can still see her in my mind. But with these plums, she was so excited about plums. What else was I going to tell you? Oh yeah. About the air raid. The shelter. Yeah. And my mum used to put us down. We used to sleep in there. And one day, oh and my mum used to help in the village hall. They used to do whist drives and dances and it’s only a small village hall. It, well it’s a church hall at Cherry Willingham and we, I used to go with her because she used to light fires, two fires in the, ready for the whist drive. And you used to, used to go and put some more coal on it. It was black you know. Everywhere. There were no lights anywhere. And it used to be so, because you know so dark and I can still remember that. And if you had a cycle you had a lamp on the front but it was all blacked out by about the size of a shilling in those days. I don’t know how they saw. But anyway. So, funny things. Oh, and on a Saturday morning us children used to collect the salvage as we called it from all the houses and put them in a shed and then it was sorted out. I don’t know what, what they did with it but anyway that was our Saturday jobs with wheelbarrows fetching all this salvage and taking it to this shed. And the grown-ups used to sort that out. My dad wasn’t sent for the war because he worked at the forge and it was, they did work for the war you see. I don’t know what they did. I can’t remember. And, and so we were lucky to have my dad at home when everything went and I used to be saying, ‘Don’t let, just tell dad to come in,’ if there was a raid, ‘Don’t let him — ’ and he would stand out listening. The men did. About watching the, you know all the hearing them more likely. The air raids were on, he’d say, ‘Oh, they’re bombing Coventry,’ and all that sort of talk. Yeah. But it’s so you know I think when you’re, it’s your young day you do remember but I think it was more vivid with it being the war that you do remember things so well. And what else is there to tell you? Stop it a minute.
[recording paused]
MH: And one day my dad had been around the Cherry Willingham village. Well, there was only about [pause] I wouldn’t know how many houses. Say two hundred houses in there then. Now, it’s like a small town Cherry Willingham is. And he was, he’d been somewhere. They had a [pause] a place up in the village where the, when the [pause] what do church wardens and all them went to sort the people out. We had a man lived next door to us. He was called Twiddy Espin and he was only a very small man. My dad always said the whistle, he used to blow the whistle all around the village when it, so you knew, or if you were showing any light with your, and my dad always said that the whistle was bigger than he was. And he did look after us though. He used to come all around the village looking if you showed any light. You know, because you had to have blackouts of course. And he was very good really. He was. Nice man. And then my dad was gone up to this place whatever it was. I don’t know what it was about. They used to meet up there. Some of the men in the village. And one day he was coming down the village and he got shot at by a German plane. And one of the, there was a barn from the farm that was in the village and it happened to have the door open and he went in there and so they missed him. Yeah. And that was frightening to think they’d been shot at. Yeah. Because you didn’t know if there were some German planes about. I mean we used to go out playing. And, and I never went out of Cherry Willingham all through the war. Only to school. Because my mum used to go to Lincoln to get your clothes and she would never take us in case there was a, a, you know the sirens went. And so I never went out the village and I always remember being nervous going out for a meal after because I’d never been used to it. And nervous of such a lot of things because you were so [pause] And we used to be playing out sometimes when it was snowing. Behind the church we used to have a slide down there. Sirens would go. Fly home quick. But we were very fortunate around here as regards being bombed. And I remember one day my mum, she used, she was doing her hair, I was in curled up in one chair, my brother in the other. My dad was at work. And we were going up to see about this whist drive place so she was getting herself ready for going. And all of a sudden, we didn’t know if it was a bomb or a plane had crashed. Blew the back, the door in, in the house and the windows really rattled and I think that was before the, the ‘drome though because my mum pushed us under the ordinary table. And when she looked she’d only got her head under about, you know that was hanging out of it. But they are so protective of their children aren’t they? Mothers. Most of them anyway. And, yeah that was very vivid to remember. I can hear it now. The window really rattling and doing. Yeah. It was [pause] That was another thing that we did. What else was there? That. And that’s about it I think.
[recording paused]
MH: Now, on the crescent was the WAAF quarters. All the huts where the, where the WAAFs lived on here. And, and then just further down the road some of the, they weren’t the crew people, they were the ground staff. They had their quarter down there and where later on in life I got married and they brought a knitwear factory into this village and it was the old recreation place for the, for the crews where we, where it was. And it just finished about four years ago. Maybe more, wasn’t it? And it’s still there. You know. But they’re going to pull it down and it seems very sad to me that they’re pulling it down now. But they’re going to build houses so that’s it. And that’s another thing that we did. Yeah. Yeah, it was there and I was there forty six years. Because my first husband died when I was forty eight. You was only twenty something, weren’t you? And I was called Canner then and now I’m Mrs Hodgin. I married my second husband in 19 — what was it? ’92. Twenty ninety two. Yeah. That’s another thing. That’s not nothing to do with the war though.
SB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
MH: On the ‘drome. And we never knew about to be quite honest that there was such a thing as dark people. And one day we, as I say, mum as I said used to help with the whist drives and dances. Well, a lot of the RAF used to come up to the dances and brought this dark lad with them. He was only eighteen and they made such a fuss of him and he was such a nice person. And I, and that was the first black person I’d ever seen. Well, all of us had really. But they were so kind to him you know. Really looked after him. I can remember that vivid. Yeah. And he was nice. What else did you say?
[recording paused]
MH: And we had some Americans. I think they were based at Cranwell. Was it? Cranwell aerodrome. And they used to come around in to the town. By then this was a bit after the war though, Shirley. Wasn’t it? And they used to, used to go into town and they used to give us chewing gum and all sorts. Sweets and things. So we were always pleased to see them around. Yeah. Yeah. They were good. Yeah. That was another thing in my life. Yeah.
[recording paused]
MH: School it would be. I was fourteen and the rationing was still on and I worked in the Cherry Willingham Post Office come shop and still rationed we were. And, oh another thing. In the war we were allowed four of us two pound of sugar a week, half a pound of butter and then it was your flour and whatever you had. And the margarine was awful. I couldn’t stand it. But my dad used to, didn’t like wasting food whatsoever and he used to say I’ve got to eat this margarine on my bread. I said, ‘I’d sooner not have anything on my bread.’ But my mum used to put her butter on my bread and [laughs] but we only had two ounces each a week and that was in the war, well it was right after the war as well quite. Until nineteen fifty something it finished. Yeah. And a lot of the people had quite big families in those days and they couldn’t afford all what they got so they used to give up some of theirs and then other people who were better off used to buy that you see. What was spare. And we never had any tinned fruit. There wasn’t such a thing then in the war. You couldn’t have bananas over three years old. Yes. And I remember when the war finished and the man who, the shop was nearly opposite where, where we lived and I can remember him bringing the first lot of bananas. Well, bananas for us. And mum did us some banana and custard and I always remember that. It was wonderful. They were the first bananas we’d had, yeah. As I can remember. Yeah. And then the sweets came off ration. You didn’t get many sweets in the war. Then they came off ration. The first thing I bought was a Mars bar. Yeah. Funny things. Yeah. So better switch if off.
[recording paused]
SB: On the buses.
MH: We used to have with them. So many RAF people in the buses used to come from Lincoln to pick us up to take us back to Lincoln. My mum more than me because I was a child. And you had a job to get on the buses because they were full of the RAF people. And there used to be conductress in those days and the bus used to be packed and they used to stand from the end of the bus right to the door and the conductress used to be hanging on like this. And the RAF if you was a child went on the bus at all they would always have you on their knees. It used to be absolutely packed. The buses. But now they’re not allowed to you see. But yeah, and that was, my mum often went out for a bus and couldn’t get on it. Yeah. It was strange that was. Yeah. It was packed up with there. The WAAFs. Yeah. I can remember. But this, as I was saying where I live now was the WAAF’s quarters and they used to be their recreation village hall, hall there. Well, then when it all finished they left. That was our village hall. It was a wonderful place and we used to have dances and all sorts in it. A nice big dance place it was. And then, then of course it’s gone now because this has been built but the shop. Yeah. It used to be just there where those houses were. That was. I can remember that. Yeah. But I used to like the WAAF’s uniform. And when I went to this Woodhall Spa.
SB: 40’s.
MH: 40s, was it? Yeah. I says, ‘I hope somebody’s dressed as a WAAF.’ So anyway this lady came up and I said, ‘Oh, do you mind me talking to you?’ I said, ‘I’ve always admired their uniform.’ And, oh she was a lady that organised parties for the whatever. I don’t know what. She’d got seventeen. Not them but all different uniforms and she says, ‘The only thing with the, with the — ’ which I didn’t know, ‘With the tunics is that they all fastened men’s side because they were all done for men. But then they had, the WAAFs came and they used those,’ she says, ‘And they were all fastened the wrong way,’ she said. Oh dear. I said, ‘Well, I’m still learning.’ Yeah. And she invited us to get but we didn’t get did we? So we’re going to go hopefully next year to it again. And, oh I did have a wonderful day there though. Everybody dressed and their hair done up how they used to have it in the war. Yeah. And the stockings with the line. You know. The seams up. That they got on. Yeah. I can remember wearing some of those and make sure your seam was straight. Oh dear. Yeah. Oh God. You’d better switch it off now.
[recording paused]
MH: In the villages you had to have what you called the Army. Things for the Home Guard. And my dad was in the Home Guard and they used to sort of do all, what do you call it on a Sunday morning? All get marching and doing. And I always remember, which is another funny thing is he couldn’t fasten his top hook and eye and I used to stand on a stool to fasten his button. And, yeah there was the Home Guard in the war. Yeah. That was good. Yeah. It was. There was all the men, elderly men who didn’t go to the forces or anything. And there was quite a lot of them used to go marching around on a Sunday morning. And they were there to protect us if the Germans had come, you see. So that was, and that’s all. That’s all I’ve got there. You’d can switch it off.
[recording paused]
MH: I always remember with it being so dark and when it was like November time we always had thick fog. And all of a, then they decided on the ‘drome to give a light for the planes to come in to and it lit all your village up. And I was terrified because of this fog light. Yeah. That was a strange thing. Yeah. That sort of thing. Yeah. That’s —
[recording paused]
MH: And I can remember also a couple living in Cherry Willingham and they had a car which was rare. For the war. People who weren’t, you know had nothing much to do with the war but he was connected with the war and they went through Scampton where Guy Gibson was and his dog. It had a name. I forget its name.
SB: N*****.
MH: And, and they were going past the entrance of the aerodrome on there and this dog ran out in front of them and they killed it. But they did stop and sort it out. But there’s been a film made of the, of Guy Gibson and on it it shows that, it says they didn’t stop. They were very upset because they did stop because, you know. But it was the dog’s fault. It wasn’t their fault. And they were a long time getting over the, of doing it never mind about being on the film that they didn’t stop. And, yeah and that was a sad thing. But, yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Margaret Hodgin
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Suzanne Bellhouse
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHodginM170810, PHodginM1701
Format
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00:27:10 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Margaret’s family lived in Fiskerton and her first memory of war time, when she was seven and her brother four, was of her father digging a shelter in the garden. The children would walk or cycle to Reepham school.
Margaret was about eleven when an aerodrome was built a couple of fields away. When she heard the Lancasters take off she would run upstairs to watch from the open window and wave to the crew. She would write the aircraft number in a book and lie awake at night listening for them to return. She remembered a German aircraft flying low to take pictures of the station and then being shot down over Lincoln. Margaret’s parents took in an evacuee before the RAF Fiskerton was built. On a Saturday morning the village children would collect salvage in wheelbarrows and take it to a shed where it would be sorted by the adults. She recalled the time when there was an explosion which blew the house door in. When Margaret was fourteen she worked in Cherry Willingham Post Office and shop. Margaret’s father worked at the forge doing war work and was also in the Home Guard. She remembered he had once been shot at by a German plane but wasn’t injured as he dived into a barn. Margaret’s mother helped with the whist drives and dances in the village hall.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
Home Guard
RAF Fiskerton
shelter
shot down
strafing
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/875/11115/AHollisRE180111.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hollis, Arthur
Arthur Norman Hollis
A N Hollis
Description
An account of the resource
56 items. The collection concerns Arthur Hollis (b. 1922) who joined the RAF in 1940 and after training completed a tour on 50 Squadron before becoming an instructor. At the end of the war he was deployed as part of Tiger Force. Collection contains a biography and memoir, his logbook, correspondence, training records, photographs of people, aircraft and places, his medals and flying jacket. It includes an oral history interview with his son, Richard Hollis.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Hollis and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hollis, AN
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Thursday the 11th of January 2018 and I’m in Cowes with Richard Hollis to talk about his father Arthur Hollis. What were the earliest information you’ve got about your father, Richard?
RH: Well, right from his, from his childhood through schooling. We know quite a lot. Quite a lot about the family. I’ve got lots of photographs and, up until when he was in the Home Guard and then joined up and joined the RAF.
CB: So if we start with early on. Where his parents were. What his father did. And then take it from there.
RH: His father got completely decimated in the First World War and was an office manager in an insurance company. He went into insurance really because it was about the only thing that he could do and my father’s mother was at home bringing up children. My father was the eldest. The eldest child.
CB: His schooling?
RH: And his schooling. He went to, he said not very satisfactory prep schools. And then my grandparents were left some money by an uncle who deceased and enabled them to send both my father and his brother to Dulwych College as day boys where my father said he rapidly learned how to work and the advantages of working and he, he did very well academically. He was also a keen sportsman. He played rugby. He was a very keen swimmer and he was an extremely fine amateur boxer. He then, well after he came out of school at sixteen after he matriculated and I think that was school certificate or, anyway and he then, my grandfather was very anxious, his father was very anxious that he’d, with the war coming that he’d have some sort of grounding for a profession which my poor late grandfather had not had and so he was articled to a firm of chartered accountants or accountants in the City called [Legge] and Company. I think Phillip, I think it was Phillip [Legge], I’m not sure. The, he, [Legge] had been a contemporary of my late grandfather in the First World War. He was there for a good couple of years and, and, but he wanted to join up. He was not, he couldn’t join the Army or the Navy for some reason but he went then, he opted for the RAF and but apparently at that time there was a bit of a blockage of new people wanting to be pilots. They obviously couldn’t process them fast enough so he was sent off to Manchester University to do higher maths and flying related subjects I think for about six months before he went off to learn to fly in Florida. In his memoirs he comments that the ship that they went out on which was to Nova Scotia had been used for, as a meat ship. I doubt if it was cleaned out very well. They just strung a row of hammocks across and people were very sick apart from him. And so he landed in winter time in Nova Scotia. They saw good food for the first time. In his memoirs he tells us that. And then they worked, went by train down through the United States into, into Florida which of course was beautifully warm. He went to an airfield called Clewiston and quite early on he was selected to be a corporal, acting corporal and to, one of the jobs was to maintain discipline. He was quite a disciplinarian anyway and so he seemed to be rather suited. His commanding officer was Wing Commander Kenneth Rampling and he got on extremely well with Kenneth Rampling and had a huge amount of respect for him. He finished his training there. He said when he was training the flying instruction in the air was excellent. On the ground it was very poor so they had to work extremely hard to, to make sure that they didn’t lag behind or or fail. When they had finished there he went back up to Canada and I think he received his commission on [pause] up in Canada. They then joined other people on a, on a ship, troop ship crossing the Atlantic and in, he said in his memoirs later on he didn’t realise at the time, he wouldn’t have known but it was actually at the height of the U-boat, U-boat war but they were all very jolly and he said, but it wasn’t always pleasant going. He said, ‘If the sea was rough,’ he said, ‘You imagine shaving with a cutthroat,’ which he did, ‘A cutthroat razer in a rough sea.’ He said, ‘I didn’t worry about it.’ He just got on. But anyway, he landed in, he landed in [pause] I think Liverpool but I’m not sure. That would have to be checked out. And then went down to, in his memoirs I think he said he goes down to the south coast to be kitted out. After that, we’ll check up in his logbook, he went to Little Rissington to start learning to fly twin engine aircraft. It would have been Oxfords. He then went, he then went on to, where did he go after that Chris?
CB: Right. We’ll pause there for a mo.
RH: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: The question [pause] Of course, when he was an articled clerk it’s the early days of the war and everybody was pressed into something. He’d had training, officer type training when he was at school.
RH: Yes. He was —
CB: So what did he do when he left?
RH: He joined the Home Guard. He had a lot of respect for the other, his colleagues in the Home Guard. He pointed out to us as a family, he said, ‘Dad’s Army is not really a true picture of what it was like.’ He said, ‘These were people who had been a part of a, at the end of the First World War, if they’d survived the First World War, a fine Army and they could certainly shoot fast and straight. And in his memoirs he says that there would have been a lot of dead Germans. Anyway, he enjoyed himself in the Home Guard and thought it was very worthwhile.
CB: Good. Thank you very much. And so that set him in good stead anyway when he joined the RAF because he already had —
RH: Yes.
CB: Military training.
RH: Yes.
CB: Now, in his logbook we have talked about him returning to Little Rissington.
RH: Yes.
CB: Returning to England and doing his twin engine flying.
RH: Yes.
CB: So that was to get him accomplished with A - twin engine and B - the British weather.
RH: Yes. He does say in his memoirs that navigation was considerably harder in in the UK than it was in the, in the States.
CB: Did he ever explain why? Why that was so much more difficult.
RH: I don’t think so. Just that the terrain, in the States you could follow a railway line or something and there was very little. And the weather of course. So after Little Rissington —
CB: He then went on to the Operational Training Unit.
RH: Yes.
CB: That was at —
RH: He then went to Number 29 OTU at North Luffenham on Wellington Mark 3s. By this stage he had done two hundred and ninety five hours of flying and and it was during this period that he had an unfortunate incident. It was in December just before Christmas. December 1942. He had to bale out at two and a half thousand feet on the orders of the captain from the Wellington and he did not have his parachute done up correctly and it started to go over his, over his body. It caught on his flying jacket. It tore his flying jacket and he came down holding on to the, holding on to his parachute with his arms. He flatly refused all through his flying life to get the flying jacket repaired where it tore because he said, ‘That tear saved my life.’ He says in his memoirs that when he landed on the ground that he was met by some farmers, or farm labourers approached him and questioned where he was from. Was he one of theirs or one of ours and he said very strongly he was one of ours. He said they then plied him with tea in a farmhouse. He said he would like to have had something slightly stronger. Anyway, he continued his training there, then went to a short course, advanced flying, again on Wellington Mark 1s. And then in February, the beginning of February 1943 he joined 1660 Conversion Course at Swinderby. Swinderby, and was flying Manchesters, Mark 1s and he then and that’s where he picked up the rest of his crew. He had picked, when he was flying Wellingtons he had pilot officer then, Palmer as navigator, Sergeant Kemp as an air bomber, Cheshire, Sergeant Cheshire as a wireless operator/air gunner and Sergeant Jock Walker his rear gunner. And he was very very fond of Jock Walker.
CB: What did he tell you about the crewing up process at the OTU on the Wellingtons?
RH: He said that you just stand. There wasn’t any, he said you chose. I don’t know how it worked but you just chose your, I think he said that he chose. You chose your own crew and how you would know if they were good. I suppose if you got on reasonably well or you talked to them and you found out a little bit about them but those were the people that he had, I believe he had chosen. Later on in the Conversion Unit at Swinderby he was joined by Sergeant Bob Yates and sergeant [pause] who would that have been? Sergeant [Adsed], Don Adsed who was a flight engineer. Bob Yates was the mid-upper, upper gunner. So that made up the crew of seven. He did say, he told me that when he was doing his Conversion Unit converting to heavy bombers of all the people on the course he was the only one to have survived the Second World War. And that was born out by when the Memorial at Skellingthorpe was unveiled in the 80s. nineteen eighty —
CB: Six.
RH: 1986. A very old man came up to him and said, ‘Are you Arthur Hollis?’ And he said yes and he said and he was with my mother at the time who also witnessed this and this dear old man said to him, ‘Oh, I know one, I knew one survived. I’m so pleased to meet you.’ Which was very touching. Anyway, then in 1943 in March, March the 11th 1943 he started flying operationally at Skellingthorpe on 50 Squadron and straightaway we’ve got the first operation to Stuttgart. According to his logbook he flew a variety of Lancasters. They were Lancaster Mark 3s but his favourite, their favourite one appeared in March, at the end of March 1943 and that was D for Dog, ED475 which took them to Berlin and then on to St Nazaire the next night. Working through his logbook they did, they were flying some part sometimes to France. I know he planted, he did some mining in the Gironde on one occasion but then it was off to Kiel, [unclear] Stettin, Duisburg and Essen. On May the 12th 1943 they were setting off to go to Duisburg. He told me that quite often to gain height they would take off, fly over and go and fly over to Manchester to gain height and then, and then cross the North Sea with some decent height. But off the Dutch coast he was with, in collision with a Halifax. What had happened was that the Halifax apparently had been early and contrary to the strict instruction not to do a dog leg and join in with the main bomber stream the pilot of the Halifax had decided to turn back in to the main stream. Go head on into the main bomber stream. They collided. The Halifax with one of its propellers cut through and cut off six feet and damaged six feet of the starboard wing and put an engine out of action. The engine must have been on the starboard wing as well. Probably the outer. They both returned to, to England and he my father told me, I had asked him at one stage why he had not been recognised for, for bringing a damaged aircraft back with seven valuable men in it and he said because he wasn’t riddled with German bullets. But he was always extremely angry that the collision seemed to have been hushed up. There is correspondence about the collision from other members of his crew that looked at it, looked at it in 1979 and some photographs of the damage to the wing. But [pause] could we just stop there?
CB: We’ll pause just for a mo.
RH: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: So after the mid-air collision.
RH: Well, he —
CB: He got no recognition.
RH: He got no recognition. In fact, it was, it was all hushed up which made him very angry because it was, he said it was two valuable aircraft and fourteen valuable men. Coming back they jettisoned the bombs. He managed to fly the aircraft he said. He told me he could just about keep it in a straight line and they jettisoned the bombs and I don’t know where he landed but he obviously did. So that was that. Then he continued on with operations. That was with ED475. Their favourite aircraft. In an article written by, or written in 1979 one of his crew which was [pause] who was that? Cheshire, his wireless operator praised my father for flying the aircraft back. But it was established that it was a Halifax because there were bits of the Halifaxes propeller wrapped around the wing of the aircraft and it contained wood and only the Halifax propeller I believe had, did contain wood. So, we then move on to [pause –pages turning], I think we’ve missed something here. We need to stop I think.
CB: Ok. We’ll stop for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok. Restarting now.
RH: There is another photograph of, a colour photograph of a Lancaster. It’s actually a flight of Lancasters and my father told me that he was asked to take up a flight, a flight of Lancasters with a photographer on another aeroplane. They were to do formation flying. In his logbook he says on the 23rd of July a formation flying nine aircraft. He did say that they weren’t trained to do formation flying and basically most of the aircraft the pilots couldn’t get near this photographer so most of the photographs were taken of my dear late father in his Lancaster and his crew and the photographs are there. That has been established that it was JA899, again D for Dog and photographs have been taken up by Lincoln, copied by Lincoln University. Shortly after that, that was on July the 23rd, on July the 24th he went to Hamburg and on July the 25th in the same aircraft JA899 they went to Essen. It was on this trip to Essen that he, they were caught in searchlights and I think my father said at that stage they now had radar controlled searchlights and they were damaged by flak. It said hydraulics were u/s in his logbook. Tyres burst. They didn’t know that until they landed. Following the attack they were attacked by a fighter whilst held in searchlights in the target area and Jock Walker the tail gunner was wounded by a cannon shell and one of his other crew, the mid-upper gunner was also slightly wounded. He managed to lose the, or get out of the searchlights and, and fly the plane home and there was also, it says in his memoirs there was no, they lost their intercom as well. So it must have been a pretty unhappy time. For that he was awarded later on the DFC. Then after another trip to Hamburg they were coming towards the end of their tour. By this stage he told me that his crew, he said he didn’t believe in luck. He wanted, he purposely throughout his tour never had a girlfriend and he was a very strict disciplinarian in the aircraft. He said that there were, there were good skippers of aircraft and there were popular ones but he did not believe that the popular ones were necessarily good and he maintained this discipline. By this stage the crew had definitely established that they wanted to be flying with him and were most grateful for that which they wrote to him in a letter in 1968. And in the letter, this was written by Tom Cheshire who had visited, who had made contact with Don Adsed and it said, “We had a nostalgic hour.” This was in 1968 when they met up, “We had a nostalgic hour during which time we came to the conclusion from our total flying times that you were about the best pilot and aircraft captain we’d, either of us had flown with. I will spare your blushes but I really mean that. I afterwards flew with a motley load of crews and missed the crew discipline which you always maintained. I’m sure this was a considerable factor in allowing us to take advantage of an average share of luck.” Can we pause there?
CB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
RH: There is a photograph of, I would imagine it’s the entire squadron in front of a Lancaster. I know that my father is not in this one. I believe it was taken when he was on leave and that was at about the time of the, I think the Peenemunde operations. And he said that when he was on leave he came back and there had been such losses he arrived late in the evening and it was dark and he didn’t recognise anyone in the officer’s mess. He didn’t see anyone he knew and he said he seriously thought that he’d been dropped at the wrong airfield. And then he met someone and he said, ‘No, Arthur. I’m afraid we’ve had some, we’ve had some very bad losses.’ Moving on as they get towards the end of their, oh when Jock Walker was wounded so he didn’t do the last three operations but they were ending their, ending their tour and the last two operations were to Milan. My father told me that they were chosen, Milan was chosen because it was really getting to the stage where Italy had was on the point of, of getting close to giving up and Milan was perhaps a softer target, an easier target. They flew across France, over the Alps to bomb the marshalling yards in Milan. Unfortunately, my father told me that there had been a lot of instances where bombing raids tended to creep back from the target area as people pressed the button just a little bit early to, to get out and he wanted to demonstrate how not to bomb short. So he said to his bomb aimer, ‘You tell me when you’re ready and I’ll tell you when to press the button.’ He unfortunately got it slightly wrong and counted all the way to ten by which stage he’d completely missed the target they were shooting at, destroying the chapel where Leonardo da Vinci’s, “The Last Supper,” was on the wall in this chapel and Leonardo da Vinci’s, “The Last Supper,” was damaged but the wall stayed there. The rest of the chapel was completely destroyed and online you can, if you go online and look at the Leonardi da Vinci’s the “The Last Supper - war damage,” you can see some of my father’s handiwork. Later on, some years, some twenty seven odd years, thirty years later in his memoirs he tells us that he had, as a chartered accountant some Italian clients. He had quite a number of Italian clients. He never let on that it was he that had damaged that chapel or blown it to bits. But he was taken to see it and he quietly told my mother, ‘And guess whose handiwork this was?’ And he did also say later that he felt gratified, the fact that he had a whole lot of artisans work for the last thirty years. So that was his last operation to Milan and that was the end of his time at Skellingthorpe.
CB: Right so we’ve ended operations.
RH: Yeah.
CB: How many operations did he do?
RH: He, he did thirty. He did his full thirty.
CB: And how many hours was his total by then?
RH: And that, and that total by then was just under, was about six hundred and ninety.
CB: Ok. We’ll pause there. Have you got some more?
RH: Yes.
CB: He, he just about when he was finishing at Skellingthorpe in his logbook he says a voluntary attachment to 1485 Gunnery Flight, Skellingthorpe and it was then that his dear rear gunner Jock Walker came back on to the squadron and he, he took Jock Walker up in a Tiger Moth because he thought it would just be fun and good for Jock to get back into flying again. Very sadly Jock Walker lost his life doing his last three trips with another aircraft and in his logbook he says he was a very experienced pilot but sadly they lost their lives.
RH: Stopping there.
CB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: What was your —
RH: With the situation with Jock Walker my father was asked by the station commander or senior officer whether he thought it would be a good idea if Jock Walker went back on to operations just to finish his tour because he only had three, three to do to complete his thirty trips and my father said that he thought that Jock would like that because he would be happy with that. My father later on a night explained that, he said it was one of the worst things he ever said in his life because as I’ve said poor Jock Walker went off to, to lose his life on one of those last three trips and Jock was the only child of, my father said, a very nice Scottish couple and to lose their only child was absolutely tragic.
CB: The history of these sorts of things is that, seems that captains and others sometimes feel a sense of guilt when something’s happened to their crew that was actually beyond their control but nevertheless within their realm of concern and command.
RH: Yes. So that was the end of his flying operationally. That. His tour of operations.
CB: We’ll just stop there a mo.
RH: Right.
[recording paused]
CB: So in training and during operations people formed all sorts of alliances, experiences and admirations and some of the senior people were very encouraging to the more junior ones. What experience did he have in that?
RH: When he was, when he was, going back to Florida he had a great admiration for, for his Wing Commander Kenneth Rampling. And as I say he appointed him, he says in his memoirs course commander. “I was made an acting corporal unpaid and held general responsibility for the behaviour of the Flight. About fifty cadets.” He, he then went on to say that, at the end of his course, “We took the wings exam and qualified. On the evening before the Wings Parade together I, together with my two section leaders invited by three officers to a celebration at the Clewiston Inn where they stayed. What a night. I arrived back at camp wearing the CO’s trousers, mine having got wet in a rainstorm. The next morning the Flight was drawn up on parade and I marched up to Kenneth Rampling to report, ‘All present and correct, sir.’ He said, ‘Christ you look horrible.’ To which I replied, ‘Not half as horrible as I feel.’” Just as well the doting onlookers could not hear these remarks. Dear Kenneth Rampling, he was killed two years later as Group Captain DSO DFC CO of a Pathfinder Squadron.
CB: Clearly made a really big impact.
RH: Yes.
CB: On him and an inspiration in his life.
RH: Yes.
CB: I’m stopping.
[recording paused]
RH: If I just refer back to his last trip, tour. His last trip of the tour was to Milan. His he said his usual aircraft was pronounced unserviceable rather late in the day. Group Captain Elworthy, later Marshal of the RAF, Lord Elworthy the then base commander was very anxious that I should finish on this trip. He therefore arranged for an aircraft from another station be made available and took me personally in his staff car to that station. My crew were taken there by bus. And he then goes on to talk about the bombing short.
CB: So, when, when he went to Milan then he didn’t come straight back did he? He went on to North Africa.
RH: No. They came straight back.
CB: That was a different one.
RH: That was a different one.
CB: Right.
RH: The North African was when he was bombing, a trip to Friedrichshafen. He says in his, in his memoirs if I can find it. [pause] I think we’d better just stop now.
CB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
RH: Was when they, when they carried out raids on the U-boat pens at St Nazaire it was rather useless as the concrete was too strong for the bombs then carried. He also went to Berlin, Pilsen and Hamburg. An interesting trip was as a special force chosen to bomb Friedrichshafen where special radar spare parts were stored. “As it was then midsummer there was not enough darkness to return to the UK. We therefore went over the Med to North Africa. The personal map which I marked up and tucked in to my boots is in my logbook."
CB: Stop there.
[recording paused]
RH: After his trip to Milan he used to dine out on the story but he maintained that he had taken Italy out of the war because they were so disgusted that a religious artifact was too much for them to cope with that and he recently, he said he recently told the story to an artist friend who remarked drily that the bomb damage was not half as serious as the damage inflicted by the subsequent garish and overdone restoration.
[recording paused]
CB: What other stories have you got that ties in with —
RH: Well, my father, my father had a very [pause] he was quite careful what he would say to, to some people. Particularly, he had German and Italian clients but I remember on one occasion in the 1980s at a lunch party my father was sitting next to a very charming German lady and she asked the question, ‘Have you ever been to Hamburg?’ And, because she was from Hamburg and he said, ‘No.’ And she, this lady had to leave the lunch party early so she went and one of his other, one of the other people sitting beside him said to, said to him, ‘I thought you said you had gone to Hamburg.’ He said, ‘Well, I did go but I didn’t stop.’ He was very, he used to give talks on, about his experiences and he was very adamant that people should understand that, you know people said, ‘Oh well, you know the poor Germans,’ etcetera. He said, ‘Do understand this? That whilst Germany was completely obliterating Europe the —' perhaps we ought to be recording this actually.
CB: We are.
RH: Yes. We are. Good. That it, it turned people, some people said, ‘Oh the bomber, the bombing campaign didn’t do much.’ He said, ‘Just look at it this way. It tied up, it tied up about a million people. Manufacturing had to be geared for defending the German Reich not manufacturing shells for, for the Russian Front or tanks for the Russian Front. It tied up a huge number people as Speer said in his book.’ My father also used to refer to Speer and said that had there been nine other raids like Hamburg the Germans would have probably thought about giving up. But everything was, everything, the vast amount of armaments and work and planning was geared to the defence of Germany not the offensive. And he said, ‘If you look back in history no one has ever won a war on the defensive and we put the Germans on the defensive. That they were not going to win.’ So, and he was, people used to bring up, he’d give talks about, about the Second World War and he would, he would definitely make this point that, and he also talked about the, after the war he said, ‘I can understand the crooked thinking that the appalling and harsh lessons during the war our former enemies quickly became model citizens. I’d been delighted to share friendships with some admirable Germans and even one or two Japanese. But naturally there has always been during the war there were good Germans but the nation as a whole followed, took a disastrous turning during the 1930s and set about ruthlessly establishing itself as the master race and one must not forget that.’
[recording paused]
CB: How many aircraft did he fly on ops?
RH: In total he flew twenty different Lancasters and after the, after the war my mother did the research when it became available and found that only one of them survived the Second World War. All the others were either crashed or went missing which means they were crashed. Incidentally the Lancaster JA899 which was the Lancaster where he got shot up over Essen that was repaired. That was repaired three times. Damaged three times and eventually it was lost on the 22nd of June 1944. So it was quite clearly not a throwaway society. Right.
CB: So after ops then.
RH: After ops he went on to number 11 OTU at Westcott in Buckinghamshire and was flying, became an instructor and was flying Wellington Mark 1Cs. He used to tell us that they were grossly underpowered and quite honestly he thought at times that it was far more dangerous training people than it was flying over Germany which he absolutely hated by the way. Flying over the Ruhr. He then said, he says in his memoirs he was posted instructor’s duties to OTU Westcott. “I felt it was rather like leaving the Brigade of Guards for the Ordnance Corps but there was no choice.” Most of the instructions, instructors were New Zealanders. A very jolly bunch of chaps. His immediate senior and flight commander was one Squadron Leader Fraser Barron. DSO DFC DCM. A New Zealander who ranked at the age of twenty one as a Pathfinder ace and was killed the next year as a group captain. The immediate successor to Kenneth Rampling mentioned earlier in the narrative in my father’s memoirs. He told one amusing story about one New Zealander who said he was, father became what he termed as a shepherd. People who really couldn’t get something right and eventually were going to be, you know sent back to be an air gunner or something instead of a pilot they were given to him and, and he, he did his absolute utmost to make sure that they were, they, you know, passed. He said, but it was sometimes it was very sad because he said generally people who were poor pilots tended to get the chop first. He had one. One New Zealander. He said he just couldn’t believe how this man actually got his wings but he did. He disappeared and some months later he turned up back on the station and said, ‘Oh, hello sir.’ He said, he said, ‘Good God, what are you doing here?’ And he said, ‘I’ve come here as an instructor.’ He couldn’t believe it [laughs] He’d survived his tour. Anyway, he was also at Westcott. He was, spent a lot of time at the satellite station of Oakley which also had 1Cs. He said one night he was sitting next door in the instructor’s seat next to an Australian pupil pilot who was doing a cross country practice. On returning he made a rather mess of the landing approach and I said, my father said, ‘Go around again.’ Immediately ahead of the main runway was at Oakley was Brill Hill. He said, ‘Good pilots could clear it easily but my pupil was not in that category. After looking up at the trees as we went over Brill Hill I let him have another attempt at landing. He did the same thing again after which I said, ‘Up to three thousand feet and we’ll change seats.’ The aircraft cross country flying at Oakley had no dual controls. He said at one stage he did, I think on that occasion he did come back with some, a bit of branch or twigs or something in the tail wheel. When he was at Oakley he said in the late spring of that year he had the good fortune to meet one Betty Edmunds, one of the staff in the watch tower at Oakley. He was officer commanding night flying at the time. “We soon discovered that we both came from Carshalton and had many mutual friends. Our friendship developed. We used to play tennis together. She always won partly because she was a much better player than I but also because whenever she bent over to pick up the ball I was completely unnerved and my mind was not on the tennis.” They did eventually get married and my father said he thought they would wait until the end of the war and my mother said, ‘Oh, do you? I was thinking about the coming 2nd of December.’ They got married on the 2nd of December and, and they went away for a honeymoon in Torquay and there is a photograph of my father on honeymoon wearing, wearing a greatcoat and out of uniform. That hasn’t gone to the Lincolnshire. That’s a new one I found. But anyway, continuing on with my parents because it was a very important part of his life. He said they both wanted children. My mother wanted four but my father thought that would be rather too many to educate properly. He was particularly keen in his life that people should be educated properly thinking back of his own, of his own education. He said, “Thinking about things over the years and knowing my darling Betty’s quiet way of getting what she wanted I think she made up her mind to start our family on our honeymoon. I had no hesitation in helping.” And I think, I know life was very difficult for them there. My mother was, was still in the WAAF but, and found certain petty rules very very irksome and there was one time she was married, then married to my father said at a New Year, at New Year there was an officer’s dance at Oakley and Betty was only a sergeant. She had to get her COs permission to attend and this was refused. “My fellow officers were most indignant that the Oxford tarts were likely to be there but an officer’s wife was refused.” I didn’t particularly mind the signs that Betty was pregnant but there you are. I don’t know how he told that within a month but still [laughs] they then, they then got some accommodation, very difficult but later on they managed to get a council house or part of a council house. Two rooms in a council house at Brackley but more of that in a while. So he continued his, back to the flying he continued with his training as an instructor and there was one stage where someone started to write him down and when he went for tests in flying saying that he wasn’t very good. Fortunately, his commanding officer picked this up and realised that the man, the same man actually wanted to go out with my mother. He thought that he would be taking my mother out. So, but that was, that was picked up and he did finish up and he says in his memoirs that he finished up with a category, “After New Year I was telephoned, this was a year and a half on, “I was telephoned by Group and I was promoted to squadron leader and was to Command Instructors Flight, Turweston. A satellite of Silverstone. I had two months earlier been categorised A2 by a visiting examiner from Central Flying School. An A2 instructor’s category was rare and the highest one could obtain in wartime.” I didn’t know that. But there we are. So, after, after Westcott he then went to [pause – pages turning] Ludgate, Lulsgate Bottom. Number 3 FI [pause] FI5 or FIS?
CB: FIS.
RH: FIS. And I don’t know whether that, I think that must have been further, that must have been further training.
CB: Let’s just stop there a mo.
RH: Shall we stop?
[recording paused]
CB: Right.
RH: Right. So after further training, advanced training as an instructor his European war ended on the 1st of May leaving Westcott.
CB: No. Turweston.
RH: Sorry. Leaving Turweston and he says in his memoirs when everyone else was celebrating VE Day he was with my mother and he had a miserable time because he’d just been told that he was going off to be an advanced party of Tiger Force then being formed to set up Bomber Command on Okinawa. But he was not allowed to tell my mother where he was going and he may or may not be coming back. So, he refers to that as, ‘The saddest day of my life.’ Do you want to know about Sue the dog?
CB: Yes.
RH: When he was, when he reached his twenty first birthday, as a little anecdote he, he was given an English bull terrier called, which he called Sue which he obviously loved. And when he got married to my mother they went to [pause] they found the two rooms in a council house in Brackley which was owned for the sake of it by a Mr and Mrs Blackwell. They didn’t, when father was posted away my mother who was heavily pregnant at the time went to live with, back to live with her parents in Carshalton Beeches and they didn’t know what to do with Sue. So they gave Sue the dog to Mrs Blackwell and my father used to say that every, every Christmas there and after they always had received a photograph of Sue the dog with Mrs Blackwell. He said they looked rather similar which looking at the photograph they did but Mrs Blackwell was always the one wearing the hat. He boarded a, he boarded a troop ship which had been formerly the Kaiser’s yacht and they were, they went through the Panama Canal. He found that fascinating. And they ended up they were in Hawaii when the bomb was dropped. The Americans, he said, didn’t really want us to, didn’t really want the British contingent which I think was about seven squadrons. They didn’t want them to be part of Tiger Force. The bomb was dropped and he said he and his fellow officers were horrified. Had mixed feelings. He discussed the situation with his fellow officers in his memoirs, “We were horrified that science had reached this far but grateful that our lives and probably about two million others had been saved.” They didn’t know what to do with them. They had a ship full of craftsmen, builders, and medical units, air sea rescue units etcetera. So after a certain amount of cruising around the Pacific they went to Hong Kong. He, they landed, they got to Hong Kong and it was about two days or so after, a day or so after the British Pacific Fleet. Before the Army had arrived and my father told me a story that it was after he arrived he said the crew on the Empress of Australia, the former Kaiser’s yacht, he said they were about, he said about the fourth rate scum that they’d dug out of the, out of somewhere in, somewhere in England. I think he said Liverpool. They had been cheating the, the servicemen on board by turning up heating and then serving them some sort of orange drink to which they would add a touch of salt so they wanted to you know, sell more. And he said they really were, they were very badly done by this group. When they arrived in Hong Kong he went ashore for twenty minutes and he came back and was speaking to a very worried sergeant, RAF sergeant who told him that the crew were mustering over there and, and they wanted, they were planning to loop the medical supplies that had just been unloaded from the ship on to the dock and what should he do? And he said it was the only time he took out his service revolver in anger. He said to the sergeant, ‘Sergeant, there’s a line there. Any man that crosses that line shoot him dead and I’ll show you how to do it.’ And he would have done too. But anyway, he, they had to keep the Japanese officers as fully armed because otherwise, he said the Chinese, the Hong Kong Chinese would have ripped the place apart and looted it but he said they gave, they gave away their food, their rations because there were other people who definitely needed it more. He said, ‘I scarcely slept for several days and was somewhat hungry as we had given up our rations to the ex-occupants of the internment camps. The Japanese were later used for hard work in repairing the colony. They lived in POW camps and were not overfed. And then after about a fortnight the Marine Commandos arrived and he did have, apart from the fact he was away from my mother and he did have a grand time, or a good time in Hong Kong. Although he’d never learned to drive he was given a jeep and he said that you had to guard it all times. If you left it for five minutes when you came back the engine would have been taken out. He said the Chinese, the Hong Kong Chinese were so resourceful he said they would, they used the engines for their, to power their junks. He was initially put in as supplies officer for the officer’s mess and he had an office in the Peninsula Hotel. He said that when you went into the Peninsula Hotel you turned right into a large room. In the middle of the room the room was completely bare apart from a desk, a chair and a filing cabinet and that was his office. He was supplies officer for the officer’s mess and he said he used to go out to the Navy ships to collect the gin. He said, ‘I always remembered going out.’ He always remembered going out but he never remembered coming back. He then, also in Hong Kong went on to do the rather unpleasant job of commandeering people’s houses for accommodation and he made some good friends from the Hong Kong Chinese for that. He said it was the most distasteful job. He also would do tribunals. Criminal tribunals. He said it was very difficult because the Hong Kong Chinese at that time would make things up and tell you what they thought you wanted to hear not what had actually happened. But I don’t know whether we can put that in. Anyway, he, my mother sent him some books to study, to carry on studying accountancy but he said that the social life was, it was difficult to study because the social life was rather too good. Anyway, back, then later on in it must have been I think it was May. In May 1946 he [pause] I’ll just get, we need to stop really.
CB: Yes.
[recording paused]
CB: In July.
RH: In July 1946 it was his turn to be demobilised and he set course for home by taking a passage in one of her, his majesty’s ships to Singapore and then got a place on, believe it or not the Empress of Australia again. He arrived at Liverpool one wet afternoon and the ship’s tannoy went, ‘Requiring the presence of Squadron Leader Hollis in Cabin —’ X. He proceeded there and was greeted by an air marshal who was there for the purpose of offering him a permanent commission. He said, ‘I’ve always been pleased that I didn’t accept. There were severe Service cuts a few years later and he has had a very interesting life.’ He went on to qualify as a chartered accountant. When he came back to England — do you want this? When he came back to England of course he then had to study. He had a young child. They had nowhere to live. They managed to find two rooms in the attic of a house in Dover belonging to a relative and he only spent the weekends there because he was studying during the week time in London living with his father which was, he said since his father liked to sit in silence it was the appropriate atmosphere but very poor for my mother. They literally had no money at all. Any money that they did, he got a small grant and any money they did have was spent on, on suits so that he was well dressed when he went to work. They then moved to a house of another, some cousins in Westcliffe on Sea in Essex but they were not, that did not go down. It did not work very well. But then in 1948 they found a flat to rent at the Paragon in Blackheath where they spent fifteen happy years and he passed the final exam and became a charted accountant. And my late sister Sylvia was born in 1949. Things got a bit better for him and eventually he was offered a partnership in a firm called Hugh [unclear]. A joint [unclear] with an assistant partnership prospects and he, in 1950 — do you want to continue in this? In 1950 he went out to Jeddah and he had some work in Jeddah to do and he said Jeddah at that stage was absolutely medieval. He said he felt that he was going back to the Old Testament. He did tell me one story that he was very keen on walking and one evening he walked out of the town and on to the outskirts of the town and got surrounded by a pack of dogs, wild dogs and he really did think that he was, that he was going to be attacked and killed. But he managed to find some sticks and stones and threw them at the dogs and he walked back into the town. But he said that was a very close shave. Unfortunately, my sister Sylvia when she was born was born very prematurely and was blinded by an oxygen, use of an oxygen tent. This was when he returned from Jeddah. He said it was very difficult. My other sister was doing well at school but he said, ‘How can you tell a child who says, ‘Will I be able to see next year? Or when I’m ten?’ ‘No. You won’t.’ In 1953 I was born. Unfortunately, my mother contracted polio whilst she was carrying me and it was another great burden on the family. My father and his career he worked hard and progressed well becoming a partner in [unclear] and company. He also took on the work from a small practice where the sole practitioner had died and the sole practitioner specialised in theatrical, in the theatrical and musical world and, and he met, and Yehudi Menuhin became a client amongst others. And Diana Sheridan, the late actress. He struck a great, had a great rapport with Yehudi Menuhin. Saved him from being clobbered by vast taxation and, and he was instrumental with others in setting up the Yehudi Menuhin School. He provided for us admirably. The family. We then in the early ‘60s moved down to a beautiful house down in Kent where he lived with my mother for fifty years and was very very happy there. He was highly respected and it was the house, he was highly respected in the village and became the sort of the elder statesman in the village. And he, my mother died in 2010 and in 2013 my father didn’t become ill he just one day went to bed and never woke up. And he was terrified of ever having to go into a home but he had his wish, he died as I say in his own bed in his own house and having lived an extremely full life.
CB: What a fascinating story.
RH: There we are.
CB: Thank you very much.
RH: Sorry, I’ve gone —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Richard Hollis
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHollisRE180111, PHollisAN1801
Format
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01:06:22 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Richard’s father, Arthur Hollis, went to Dulwich College as a day boy. He left at sixteen to join the Home Guard , then worked for a firm of accountants for a couple of years before joining the Royal Air Force. He was sent to Manchester University for about six months and then to Florida to learn to fly. He went to Nova Scotia and then travelled by train to Florida. Arthur was posted to Clewiston airfield and was soon selected for acting corporal. After finishing his training, he was posted to Canada where he received a commission. His next posting was to RAF Little Rissington to learn to fly twin-engine aircraft and then to the Operational Training Unit at RAF North Luffenham working on Wellingtons. He also went on a course for advanced flying and then joined the conversion course at RAF Swinderby with Manchesters, where he picked up the rest of his crew. Arthur recalled December 1942 when he had to bale out at thousand five hundred feet on the orders of the captain. His parachute, not being fastened properly, tore his flying jacket and he came down holding the parachute with his arms. In March 1943 he started flying operationally at RAF Skellingthorpe with 50 Squadron. Off the Dutch coast he was in collision with a Halifax which had been early. It cut off and damaged the starboard wing and put an engine out of action. Arthur had brought his crew back safely. The crew continued operations flying to Hamburg and Essen. On one occasion they were caught in searchlights, attacked by a fighter, and damaged by anti-aircraft fire. They managed to get home and Arthur was later awarded the DFC. The last two operations were to Milan to bomb the marshalling yards. Arthur completed thirty operations and had flown 20 different Lancasters, of which only one survived the war. Upon completion of his tour, to No. 11 OTU at RAF Westcott and RAF Oakley, where he met Betty who became his wife.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Manchester
Canada
Nova Scotia
United States
Florida
Germany
Germany--Hamburg
Italy
Italy--Milan
Netherlands
England--Rutland
Germany--Hesse
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Lancashire
China--Hong Kong
Germany--Duisburg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-12
1943-02
1943-03-11
1943-05-12
1944-06-22
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
11 OTU
1660 HCU
29 OTU
5 BFTS
50 Squadron
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
British Flying Training School Program
civil defence
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
Lancaster
Manchester
mid-air collision
Operational Training Unit
RAF Little Rissington
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Westcott
searchlight
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1001/11343/MJosephD1576383-180522-21.2.jpg
7779b893da182f121e902672edd54846
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Joseph, David
D Joseph
Description
An account of the resource
22 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant David Joseph (1576383, Royal Air Force) and contains his decorations, log book, memoirs, correspondence and a list of prisoners of war at Stalag Luft 4. He flew operations as a pilot with 76 Squadron from RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor until his aircraft was shot down on 18 March 1944 on an operation to Frankfurt and he became a prisoner of war. The collection also contains a letter to Mrs Ramsay about the loss of her son, Flying Officer Kenneth Ramsay and photographs of his final resting place. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Brian Joseph and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />Additional information on Kenneth Grant Ramsay is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/223173/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Joseph, D
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[Crest]
In the years when our Country
was in mortal danger
DAVID JOSEPH
who served from 6th June 1940.
gave generously of his time and
powers to make himself ready
for her defence by force of arms
and with his life if need be.
[signature]
THE HOME GUARD
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
David Joseph's Home Guard Certificate
Description
An account of the resource
A certificate dated 'from 6th June 1940' awarded to David Joseph for his time in the Home Guard.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One printed sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
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MJosephD1576383-180522-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Georgie Donaldson
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
civil defence
Home Guard
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1034/11406/AMinnittPB170314.2.mp3
de81edc494e14a67df6220d791edcd59
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Minnitt, Bruce
P B Minnitt
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bruce Minnitt (1923- 2020, 1232347 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 211 and 244 Squadron Coastal Command and with a Ferry Unit in the Far East.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Minnitt, PB
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. I’ll just introduce myself. So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Bruce Minnitt on the 13th of March 2017 at his home. If I just pop that down there. You'll see me keep looking down.
BM: Well, I'm not familiar with all these modern gizmos.
DK: No. I’m not [laughs] I'm not either to be honest. The technology hasn't let me down yet but there is always a first time. So if I keep looking down I’m just making sure they're both going. It says one’s going there. So what, what I’d like to just ask is just a few questions and whatever and just sort of get a bit of background. First of all, what I would like to know is what were you doing immediately before the war?
BM: Thinking that the war started in September 1939. Well, let's getaway a little bit in so far as our age is concerned. I was born in 1923.
DK: Right.
BM: So that made me when war broke out in 1939 I was sixteen.
DK: So you were still at, still at school.
BM: No.
DK: Ah. Right. Ok.
BM: I left school fourteen days after I was fourteen years old.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: So my education has been sadly neglected during my lifetime and as it happened upon leaving school I was very fortunate because fourteen days after leaving school I had a job.
DK: Oh right.
BM: But my grandfather owned the local village shop and my father of course was part of that concern and I got a job. Ten shillings a week. It was wonderful for the hours that were put in.
DK: And that was working in the shop was it?
BM: And I was working in the shop as a —
DK: Yeah.
BM: A lad with an apron around me and I was [pause] I enjoyed it and the experience did me good because after a couple of years my father arranged for me to go to Lincoln and I got a job as a sort of an apprentice working for the best grocers in Lincoln. I used to think they were the best grocers because they had a couple of nice little vans and I used to drive around Lincoln. I was only sixteen —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Years old. I didn't have a licence of course. We used to drive all around Lincoln. No problem. Never, never got bothered by anybody and so I had a couple of years of experience in that and then I went back home and very soon I joined up. I actually volunteered, myself and another friend when we were both [pause] How old would we be? Seventeen and three quarters. I joined up in February.
DK: Was there any, any reason why you chose the RAF? Was —
BM: Well yes of course. I mean it was so glamorous, wasn't it? I mean, we were always going to be Tail End Charlies. I joined up as a, at least I thought I joined up as a tail gunner.
DK: Right.
BM: On bombers. I mean, in 1940, ‘41 rather they were looking for bombers because the high point of the fighters had gone. I was trained as, as a fighter.
DK: Right.
BM: On singles.
DK: Right.
BM: And I did, then I did a navigation course on Ansons and, in Canada whatever. And then we came back from Canada to this country and the first thing of course that I had to do was a conversion course.
DK: Just, just stepping back a bit your, by this time you’ve, you’re a pilot then are you?
BM: I was. Yes. I got my wings in Canada.
DK: Right.
BM: But it didn't matter really whether I was a fighter pilot, bomber pilot or whatever.
DK: Right.
BM: I think they used to move us around as and when required. I mean the fighter era really —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Was in 1940.
DK: So, what, what was the first type of aircraft that you were trained on?
BM: The first one that I actually went and did my original training on and got, went solo on was a Magister.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: Now, I don't whether you've heard —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: Of those.
DK: I know the Magisters.
BM: Magisters. A lovely little —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Biplane.
DK: Monoplane. Yeah.
BM: Monoplane. And we did that at Reading.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: Woodley.
DK: Yeah.
BM: At Reading. And it was just about deciding whether you were fit to be able to fly an aeroplane or whether you’d got the confidence to, to do it.
DK: So were there sort of aptitude tests?
BM: That's what it was.
DK: It was. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And we had to be able to, I think the basic test was you had to do your solo in the maximum of twelve hours.
DK: Right.
BM: I think that was what happened. Well fortunately I think what was I? Eight and a quarter or something like that. I had a little bit of an aptitude for it but I always remember my instructor. I thought at the time, well he was a very brave man. How old was I? Eighteen. Sending me off in this plane on my own up there and I always remember thinking, ‘My God, I've got this bloody thing up here. How am I going to get it down again? [laughs] And —
DK: Were they, were they very good, the instructors?
BM: Well —
DK: What were, what were the instructors like?
BM: I think they had to have a lot of faith.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And —
DK: So can you, can you remember how many flights you had with the instructor before you went solo?
BM: Well yes, I did about seven and a half, seven [pause] I haven't unfortunately I think it was about seven and a half I think.
DK: Seven and a half hours was that?
BM: Hours.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: Dual flying.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: Before they said, ‘Right.’
DK: ‘Off you go.’
BM: ‘Off you go.’
DK: So what was your feelings then when you went off by yourself for the first time?
BM: Well, I thought what a damn fool I am [laughs] going up with this aeroplane on my own up there. Nobody to help me. No radio. Nothing like that. I couldn't shout, ‘Help.’ You know, ‘What do I do now?’ And I thought I’ll just try and remember what he told me. All the different checks you go through.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Had I got them all right? And I came and landed. It must have been reasonably alright because he said, ‘Off you go again’ so off I went and did another circuit and bump and came around and he said, ‘Ok.’ And that was that. Still did a little bit of flying. Only a time or two after that before we got moved on.
DK: Right. So you got moved on from Reading then.
BM: We got moved on from Reading.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And our, our first EFTS —
DK: Yeah.
BM: I'm not going to try and confuse you with letters.
DK: That's ok.
BM: Elementary Flying Training School.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: Which was in Newquay.
DK: Right. Ok. So, Reading and then Newquay.
BM: I went to Reading.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And then Newquay. And it was an Elementary Flying Training School but we never did any flying. It was all, you know pounding the streets of Newquay and that.
DK: Square, square bashing.
BM: I did the six months down at Newquay and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And well it was some hard work but I still enjoyed it because the weather was decent. We used to play a lot on the sands and that sort of thing, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: We enjoyed that. And then we went from EFTS. I’ve missed some out. My memory is I can’t remember what my own name was.
DK: Don't worry.
BM: I’d moved to Canada then.
DK: Right.
BM: We’d done our ground stuff. I think actually they got a little bit fed up of me because we got moved up to Heaton Park near Manchester.
DK: Right.
BM: It was sort of a transit camp. You go there before you get sent here, there and everywhere and I used to break out of the camp at night and I’d come out on the train and that sort of thing. I remember no one occasion I went back after a weekend at home which I shouldn’t have been because I had no passes and I jumped straight into the arms of the military police. I went through the wall in the, in the park at Heaton Park. A lot of lads had found that out. We jumped through this hole and there were four or five of blooming military police stood on the other side.
DK: Did you, did you get into trouble over that then?
BM: Well, ‘Report to the adjutant 8 o’clock tomorrow morning.’. So I got a week confined to camp for that.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Well, what they used to make us do you put a heavy pack on your back and you had to run around the blooming park. The perimeter of the park.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Which wasn't funny. And then probably have to go back to the orderly room and polish the floors and all that. Well, I went, I saw some leave passes on this adjutant’s table while I was there. I thought, oh, you know he might not miss a few of those. So, I put some of these leave passes in my pocket and while I was there I got, he’d got the old stamp. You know, they used to stamp them. That's fine. And I got a mate of mine he could sign them for me.
DK: Yeah.
BM: His name was Squadron Leader Fred Bowls or whatever his name was [laughs] and it was all very nice but unfortunately one of these weekends I went home using this pass [there was nothing to do] we were a few weeks at Manchester. It was a bank holiday weekend. Well, that was the worst thing I could do because all military traffic, leisure traffic was stopped for the weekend. The civilians were all very much in need of all this traffic and I went home on this weekend and of course again the military police, ‘Where's your leave pass? What are you doing?’ Well, I’d got a nice little leave pass there which I showed them it. ‘There you are corporal.’ ‘Very good. Carry on.’ I said my grandmother wasn't very well so I had to go home and see her before she died.
DK: Oh dear.
BM: I had to. There were a lot of poorly grandmothers around in those days and it was a bad weekend to go. And as I’ say there were other weekends. The last weekend I got the opportunity was when I went and jumped through the wall in to the loving arms of the military police. Anyway, shortly after that we got posted and we went off to Canada.
DK: Do you remember much about the trip over to Canada? Were you on a, can you remember which ship you were on?
BM: Well, I don't remember. But I do, what I do remember it was, it was amazing really we had two battleships.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we had four cruisers, and we had ten destroyers and that was going the other way. And it took us three weeks to get to St Johns, Newfoundland.
DK: Right.
BM: From Glasgow we went actually and we went right across Canada. Saskatchewan, Manitoba and all the rest of it. Lovely people the Canadians.
DK: What did, what did you think about Canada when you got there?
BM: Oh, it was fantastic. Absolutely fantastic because you see you must remember that this was 1941, the beginning of 1942 when we got [pause] and everything was rationed of course.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we didn’t have white bread. It was all this stingy old brownish bread and everything like potatoes and milk. Poor old milk were about ninety percent water. I know there is a lot of water in it anyway but most of it was water and it was miserable old stuff. We got across to Canada full cream milk, the food was fantastic. Lovely white soft bread. We thought we were in heaven. And every station that we stopped at and it took us a long time as we were going across Canada there was always a group of lovely ladies came out on the platforms to welcome us and give us fruit and I mean, we hadn’t seen an orange or a banana or anything like that for, for years. And all of them made these wonderful offerings and eventually we ended up at a little place beside the Alaska highway in [pause] north of Calgary. Alberta.
DK: Alberta. Yeah.
BM: And about a hundred miles north of Calgary and it was a real old-fashioned place. There was no roadways or anything like that but it suited us and what we liked about that place which we hadn’t experience in England everything was laid out in, you know in lateral squares.
DK: Yeah. Yeah
BM: So you had a job to get lost.
DK: Right.
BM: Really, I mean it was —
DK: The grid system.
BM: We had a wonderful navigator. Unless, of course and we did have it happen one young fella he was going north when he should have been going south and [laughs] of course he ended up, if he’d kept on going he would have been at the North Pole but of course he ran out of fuel very easily. Then he had to walk back to get back but that was all part and parcel of the experience —
DK: So what —
BM: Of learning.
DK: What sort of training did you then have in Canada?
BM: Well, we went onto Stearmans in Canada.
DK: Right.
BM: That was our first one. This little place called Bowden, and a very very very very safe stable aircraft. I don't know whether you’ve ever seen the, sort of realised the make of aeroplane that there were but these Stearmans were like a big Tiger Moth.
DK: They were biplanes. Yeah.
BM: Biplanes.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Very stable. Very very safe. And you could, you could drop them in from a fair old height and, you know they would just bounce. Well most aeroplanes would, you’d buckle the undercarriage up. That was the biggest problem you know with would be pilots was the judgement in landing an aircraft.
DK: Right.
BM: I mean anybody can take an aeroplane off. You’d open the throttle and keep it straight and off you go. It’s a different kettle of fish when it comes down to judging that height.
DK: Right.
BM: Just get it down and drop it in nicely. And there were more people I think got failed for that particular fault.
DK: Not being able to land.
BM: Couldn’t judge the distance.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: To drop it in. And —
DK: So –
BM: Failed because of that.
DK: At this time are you flying solo again or have you got —
BM: Oh, we, oh yes we got so we were flying solo. And I did quite a lot of hours. There was a statutory number of hours.
DK: Right.
BM: Whether you were good, bad or indifferent you had that to do. And when you reached a certain standard than the whole lot of you, fifty bods usually in a, in a flight would get moved on to the next stage and we went on to the SFTS then.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: Yeah. And —
DK: SFTS. Yeah.
BM: You did [laughs]
DK: Yeah.
BM: And at that point we went on to Harvards.
DK: Right.
BM: So we were still training to be fighter pilots. We were still on singles. Now, the Harvards were a wonderful aircraft and we then did a full course on the Harvards. Funnily enough it just made me remember we went to Zimbabwe for a holiday several years ago with a cousin and we were going around Zimbabwe and we went into a museum in Bulawayo.
DK: Right.
BM: One day. A little museum with a few aeroplanes in it and there was a beautiful Harvard in there.
DK: Oh right.
BM: They’d had, they had this Empire Training Scheme.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Which was really —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Out in South Africa. Rhodesia as it was then. It wasn’t Zimbabwe and they did the same course. A lot of the lads went out from this country out to South Africa did the course there and then moved up to the Middle East.
DK: Yeah.
BM: It was much easier for them to get posted in to some sort of military unit in the Middle East. Either in the Western Desert or —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Wherever they went. And it just reminded me that Harvards were, were in South Africa just as much, well not as much they were so very busy with training aircraft in Canada. They did a wonderful job and the Canadians are forever in my heart and I have always wanted to go back full for a holiday.
DK: Right.
BM: To take my wife back after the war. We never got there. Anyway, we came back when all this was over. Well, I’m jumping a bit before we got there. When we’d done the training on the Harvards a group of us got moved from there to Navigation School.
DK: Right.
BM: On Prince Edward Island. PEI as they used to call it. And it had got a job to [pause] it was alcohol free. You know, it was like the old what's the name that they had in New York, didn't they? The —
DK: Oh, the prohibition mission. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And they had the same thing on Prince Edward Island. The only way we could get any decent drink and that was invariably it was rum, good thick rum. And we didn’t cope with it [phone ringing] and we could buy this in the mess.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we had to get a licence to buy any alcohol off service premises.
DK: Right.
BM: You know, because there were like alcohol stores where you could buy stuff on licence.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: But you wouldn’t just go in and, ‘I’ll have a pint of beer missus,’ or whatever you know. You, you had to buy it on licence. But we got all we needed anyway.
DK: Yeah.
BM: So we did this course and then we came back when it was over down through the eastern side of America. I forget the name of the States now down north of New York. Then came back to New York and we came home from New York.
DK: Right.
BM: Actually.
DK: Did you actually stop off at New York. Or not —
BM: We got on at New York.
DK: You got on at New York. Yeah.
BM: Yeah, because we came down by train.
DK: Right.
BM: From Prince Edward Island. From Philadelphia, was it was one of them.
DK: Right.
BM: New England.
DK: Right.
BM: It doesn't matter. Anyway. And we got on at New York and came back from there to Liverpool in seven days.
DK: Right.
BM: It took us three weeks to go out.
DK: Yeah.
BM: The same journey. Well, it wasn’t the same journey really because we were just over. We still lost one by the way. We still lost a troop ship going out. With all these ships looking after us we found more escorts than we had people to go, bods on them because we were going the other way.
DK: Right.
BM: And of course, at that point then the Americans were in the war. They joined up pretty well straight away in 1941. Well, December ‘41 is when they came in didn’t they?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: So it would be ’42. And we got the Empire, Empire Air Training Scheme going and we were going the other way. Anyway, we came back and it took us a week and it was said, now we’ve no way of knowing whether it’s true or not there were twenty thousand troops on that boat.
DK: Wow.
BM: On the Princess Elizabeth. And it was the first time, not the first time that we came in but it was, it was used for civilian traffic before it was actually launched as a passenger vessel.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Because it was launched at the beginning of the war, wasn't it? The Queen Elizabeth.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And interesting really. We slept in the swimming pool. There was no water in it. We got these palliases and it was plenty warm enough even in winter. And —
DK: So was the convoy attacked at all on the, on the way back?
BM: Do you know it didn't have one escort.
DK: No.
BM: Not that we saw anyway. If it did it kept out of sight.
DK: Right.
BM: We’d no escort whatever with the Queen Elizabeth and it was, it was forever never, never took a straight course. But it was said and of course everything we got was all rumour. We didn't know whether it was true or not that it was doing about thirty knots all the time and it was too fast for a U-boat.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: You know, there was no way they were going to catch it unless, you could get four or five of them like a pack. And it was maybe difficult to get away then but whether it actually got attacked I don't know but it certainly did fire its guns. It might have been in practise I don't know. It had got some massive, massive guns on as big as a warship.
DK: Right.
BM: And also they’d got dozens, literally dozens of anti-aircraft guns. I mean the Elizabeth was a big ship.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: There was a lot of space there to look after and they did a wonderful job. They got us back but of course we went back to a bit of nice English food having had all this wonderful food all the time we were out in —
DK: You had a bit of a shock then, was it? Coming back to this.
BM: Oh yeah. Coming back to this. So then we did [pause] from there we went, moved on to training on Oxfords.
DK: Right.
BM: Twin engine planes.
DK: Can you remember where you were based then? Flying the Oxfords?
BM: Well, you know my first place really was South Cerney in Gloucestershire.
DK: Right.
BM: There was South Cerney and there was Bibury. We did different sort of out-stations like we, one was at Lulsgate Bottom. I remember that one because it, it actually became Bristol Airport.
DK: Right. Yes. Yes.
BM: Eventually.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Lulsgate Bottom. And it was, it was a bit tight because the A5 ran right alongside. You know the way Scampton does? You’ve got the A15 pretty well right —
DK: Yeah.
BM: At the end of the runway. You’ve got the A5 there at Bristol and I remember on one occasion I was awaiting my turn to take off because invariably you flew on your own even in a twin engine aircraft and he came in to land and just touched the top of a furniture waggon and the furniture waggon went past on the A5 road and the runway was just over the hedge and he just, he just touched it. But he, and I was stood there waiting and he carried on and landed OK but I should think the driver of the vehicle had a —
DK: A bit of a shock.
BM: An enlightening experience.
DK: Yeah.
SM: Has he mentioned about the Americans when he was in Canada? Flew in to —
BM: No.
DK: No. No.
SM: There was a flight of Americans came in. They all crashed didn’t they? Couldn't land.
BM: Oh, well this was in Canada.
DK: Canada. Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
SM: With the frost.
BM: Oh, we had a few experiences. We were, at that period we were going through part of the winter.
DK: Right.
BM: Well, Canadian winters were rather strong —
DK: Yeah.
BM: And one weekend, over one weekend while we were there we actually had eighty degrees of frost. It was [pause] I've got to get this right. Fifty degrees below zero was eighty two degrees of frost.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: It was cold.
DK: Right.
BM: It was. And bearing in mind we were flying Stearmans which were open cockpit.
DK: Oh yeah.
BM: And we used to have a, some chamois leather face masks with three pairs of gloves. Silk gloves, woollen gloves, leather gloves. All of it and you are only allowed to fly for twenty minutes.
DK: Right.
BM: That was it. Because of frostbite. You could easily get frostbite.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You were wrapped up like a Chinese monkey and when your time was up you had to come back and land. Get out. Otherwise you would just freeze up.
DK: Right.
BM: It’s sensible I suppose really. And of course, everything was frozen up. You didn't know where the runways were. It was just solid snow and that. On one occasion, this wasn't of course public knowledge but the Americans were supplying the Russians with aircraft and, because we had a photograph of a Flying Fortress with a Russian Star on it. We had, we had 5 Airacobras. Do you know what they are?
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: Yeah. They —
DK: Single engine fighters.
BM: One of the early [ tricycle ] undercarriage planes.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And five came in one after the other. Coming in for re-fuelling on the way up.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Up to Alaska.
DK: And to Russia that way presumably.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we were right on the Alaska Highway. The side of the Alaska highway and it would take them up to [pause] I forget the names of the places now. Anyway, they’d go up to Alaska and then over the —
SM: Bering Straits.
BM: Bering Straits.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And come down in to America that way. They didn't have to fly them across long stretches of water. Long stretches of snow instead. But these five Airacobras they came in and they couldn't pull up because it was on a shortish runway with a fair amount of wind and the brakes wouldn't, they wouldn’t, I don't know, they just, I mean we could see them doing it. You slid right down the blooming runway such as there was and, on this occasion, came down, landed and there was the old Alaska Highway such as it was but it had all snowed up. But we did have a hedge. The first one went straight through the hedge and the other four followed him just boom boom boom. So we had, we ended up with five Airacobras in somebody's field.
DK: Oh dear.
BM: But they didn't do an awful lot of damage.
DK: No?
BM: Really. They did some damage obviously.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But didn’t do such a lot of damage.
DK: Nobody, nobody hurt then.
BM: They weren't very popular. But I mean, you couldn't blame the pilots. They’d absolutely no chance and I mean once the wheels were on the ground that was it. They just kept on sliding.
DK: Yeah.
BM: They’d no grip. But just another [laughs] funny incident. Not quite on the same day but we, we had one or two lads up doing navigation exercises in Ansons. Well, they weren’t flying them. They were there navigating them. Learning how to navigate. And this, as I say this little runway they couldn’t get the aircraft down. It wasn’t a case of getting it down and making it stop down. They couldn’t get it down.
DK: No.
BM: Because an Anson just used to float on the wind you know. Like a butterfly when it was coming in and you’d get down just a few feet off the ground and you couldn’t get it to come down and stop down. You cut the engine off about somewhere at Dunham Bridge and you could [laughs] you’d come drifting in and in and in. And it went around and around. I’d seem one of them. I don't know how many times it went around but it went around a few times before it did eventually get down. And I think he was actually landing at Lincoln and then coming in [laughs] It was, it was a funny incident really watching them. But anyway we were on about these Airacobras. That was quite interesting. They’d all got the Russian Star on them.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I think if the English public had known that they’d got the Russian Star there really it would, it would be after. It would be after Russia actually came in officially.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: In to the war but not all that long afterwards.
DK: 1942 wouldn’t it when the Americans supplied.
BM: It wasn’t that that long after.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Because they’d actually got to get all the aeroplane [pause] well they weren’t converted. You had them all prepared.
DK: Yeah.
BM: With the proper markings on and all that sort of thing. All these Russian aircraft and the, but they weren't, we didn't see any that I can remember Russian transport. Land transport, you know. Big heavy armoured vehicles and all that sort.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But we did get the aeroplanes. But anyway to come back to where I was we were watching these aircraft do aerobatics at the end of the A5 at Lulsgate Bottom.
SM: Before you say that dad have you mentioned you lost your leave as well didn’t you in Canada? Which wasn't your fault.
BM: Lost me what?
SM: Leave. When someone had been smoking. Can you remember? You had to stay in camp and everybody went in to America.
BM: Lost my leave.
SM: Yeah.
BM: We don't talk about such things as that, Simon.
SM: Yeah. That wasn't your fault, was it. Can you remember?
BM: There was all sorts of things were my fault. I was forever getting myself locked up.
SM: It doesn't matter if you’ve forgotten.
BM: I have. I have.
SM: But he did. He lost his leave.
DK: Lost his leave.
SM: Somebody had been smoking and everyone [pause] they didn’t own up.
DK: Yeah.
SM: And —
DK: You got the blame for it.
SM: Dad got the blame for it and they all went on to, into America on their leave and dad had to stay on.
DK: Oh dear.
SM: On the camp.
BM: Anyway, I did this. This training.
DK: Yeah.
BM: At two or three different small aerodromes you know that —
DK: Yeah.
BM: That were where the main aerodrome had sort of landing grounds and there was, Bibury was another one.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Near Gloucester that we did a bit of training. Oh, I think we did, that one was blind landing, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You had to, without having any visual you had to come in. I don't know whether anybody has ever told you how they do it. Or did it. I mean there are all these modern gizmos today.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: I mean, they can do it but in those days you did it with like Morse Code. A series of, you’d got a dit dit dit dit dit on one side. Then on the other side of the landing as you were coming in da da da. And then you had to get them to join up. You were doing this totally blind. You were just seeing the instrument and you could —
DK: You’re hearing the noise in your ears.
BM: Yeah, we were hearing it.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And it had got a constant sound so you got the dit dit dit and the da da da. You could [daaaaa] and when it all —
DK: Came together.
BM: Came together then you knew you were actually on the line. It was very simple but it, it worked, you know. You’d get people down. It didn't tell them how high they were but at least it got them in. Got them down. I mean later in the war they got all sorts of gizmos they were using for landing. There was one system called BABS. It used to amuse us because my wife's name was Babs and they’d got this —
SM: Still is dad.
BM: They’d got this landing. Anyway, we did all this series of different training. When it was all completed then of course you got together. You got navigators, bomb aimers.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Pilots and all the rest of it and you went too [pause]
DK: The OTU.
BM: You've got it, you know. Yeah. And we were sent as a group up to —
DK: Can you remember meeting up with your crew and how that happened?
BM: Well, it was at, that was the way it was done. They would put in a big room I suppose the numbers, equal numbers that they required so many bomb aimers, so many wireless operators, this that and the other all and you just sorted yourself out. I mean if you saw somebody looking a bit like a lost sheep and you’d know what, what job he had whether he was an observer or an air gunner you’d got a —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And then say, ‘Ah, we want, we want an air gunner in our crew.’ Or, ‘We want a navigator.’ Or whatever. But even sort of —
DK: Did you think that was a good idea of getting your crew together because it seems a bit random?
BM: It was very much random but [pause] how else would you do it? I mean you wanted so many bomb aimers. You wanted equal numbers bomb aimers, navigators, pilots. You wanted more air gunners.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Because most aircraft had got at least two —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Lots of air gunners on.
DK: You've got, you’ve got no idea how good they are at their —
BM: No.
DK: Jobs though, have you?
BM: They might have been bloody useless. And in fact, some were.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I suppose that did happen but once you’d got them you’d got them.
DK: Yeah.
BM: They formed part of your crew and —
DK: Can you remember which OTU you were at?
BM: Yeah.
DK: Or where it was?
BM: Number 6.
DK: Number 6.
BM: Silloth.
DK: Right.
BM: Near Carlisle.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And you see Coastal Command flying Wellingtons I never told you that had I? Anyway, you didn’t have a lot of choice it was a, we were Wellingtons —
DK: So you were, you were literally posted to a Coastal Command OTU.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Yeah. It wasn’t until that point we’d got away from being trained as [pause] Oh yes it was. Of course, it was because we had to do a conversion course as pilots from singles.
DK: Right.
BM: On to multis, you know. And we did that —
DK: So was this —
BM: Through Oxfords and —
DK: Was it a bit of a shock then that you weren't going to be the fighter pilot? You were going to be put on bombers?
BM: Well, I mean everybody —
DK: Or larger aircraft.
BM: Everybody realised that basically the fighter’s war was over. I mean a lot of the lads were lost. By that stage of the war they were then getting they were wanting bombers.
DK: Right.
BM: Fighter bombers. They did want fighter aircraft but more or less working in safety situations.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Really, you know guarding other bombers and being —
DK: Not being, not being offensive then.
BM: No.
DK: Yeah.
BM: No. No. Not —
DK: So you met your crew then. What did you think of them personally? Did you, were they a good crew?
BM: You know there’s a more reliable statistic.
DK: You don’t have to say anything you don’t want to [laughs] I can soon turn the recorder off.
BM: I think that’s the easiest way.
DK: If you want to something [laughs] Ok. Fair enough.
BM: Yeah. You get, you get a mixed bunch really.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: You’re bound to do and there weren’t many crews and I did know one that, there was one crew which they, all of them seemed to be smashing fellas.
DK: Right.
BM: You know, they really were and they all appeared to know their job. But they were very decent fellas. But you see you got such a mixed bag. I mean, we had an Australian navigator for instance. We had a, a second pilot who was a Cockney. A Londoner. Another one who was a Cockney who was a wireless op/air gunner. We had a radio, w/op from Belfast. They were from all over the blooming place you know. They were such a mixed bag. Well, you usually used to find that people coming from similar areas you know would gel —
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: A lot better. You know, like two or three northerners for instance.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But again they would stick together. Which may not have been a good thing in some things. It didn’t help mix everybody up but they were. Anyway, we did that. I had one little incident where we was a little bit alarming in the course of doing this. Way out in the Atlantic there’s a little rock. Nothing else. It’s an island made of rock and seagulls and it’s called Rockall.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: You’ve heard of it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: It was quite a long way out in the Atlantic and it was used as a navigation training exercise.
DK: Right.
BM: You had to, a good training point for the navigator because he was the one who was responsible for it. Make sure you got to the right point and you, and you had to photograph it because we all carried a big —
DK: Prove you’d been there.
BM: So to prove that we’d actually been there.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Some would say, ‘Well, yes, we got there boss.’ Alright. No, you had to prove that you’d actually —
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we got a little bit under fuel, the shortish side and we came back and we knew we weren’t going to get back home so everybody, well the navigator sketching out as fast as he could the nearest convenient place that we could get down on and we got down. We came in to land off the coast of Scotland. A little place called Port Ellen. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of it but —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: All they’d got there was a few sheep. Didn’t even keep any aircraft there. It was an emergency place for anybody who was in trouble for any reason and then there was a hut in there.
DK: Yeah.
BM: We, we put in there for the night. We got refuelled. Had a night there listening to the flaming sheep bleating all night [laughs] And then we filled up and went off again the next morning. But it, it can be a bit hairy being out in the sea there.
DK: Yeah.
BM: It would be a bit wet if you —
DK: Finding out you were running low on fuel.
BM: If you didn't make it. You get back. You quite a long way to come at that point down the West Coast of Scotland around the sort of northern tip of Ireland.
DK: Right.
BM: And then came in and up to Solway Firth.
DK: Yeah. So was, was it at the OTU then you first flew the Wellington?
BM: Oh yeah.
DK: Right.
BM: You wouldn’t get any opportunity to fly it before then.
DK: No. So that was —
BM: That was the first time you ever flew as a, as a crew.
DK: As a crew. So how did you feel about the Wellington then because it was quite a bigger aircraft than you'd been used to up until then?
BM: Oh, yeah. Well, they were actually discarded ones from the, that had been on bombing.
DK: Right.
BM: So you could imagine that they —
DK: So they were a bit rough.
BM: They were a bit rough alright. One particular occasion we were doing a training exercise and we came in and landed and we’d no brakes at all. We couldn't. There were no way we were going to pull up before we’d go through somebody's chimney and we came down towards the end of the runway and all you could do was accelerate a lot.
DK: Right.
BM: On one side. I think it was on the portside and swing it around. Nothing to hold it back on the other side, you know. You was —
DK: Yeah.
BM: And then eventually you’d run out of steam but if anybody got in your way it was really awkward but they were such a clapped out blooming aircraft. They really were but they weren't as bad as we had on in many respects as we got on Ferry Command. There were some dodgy ones.
DK: So from the OTU then were you then posted to an operational squadron?
BM: No.
DK: Right.
BM: We did the, we did the OTU and then we got, we got sent back. We got sent to Haverfordwest.
DK: Right. OK.
BM: So that was one end of the country to the other nearly and we got down to Haverford West and it's a long way down there you know to Haverfordwest in those days because you had to come to London.
DK: Oh right.
BM: Out of London and then oh —
DK: Then back out again.
BM: Blooming heck. Anyway, we got down to, and we were just getting off the train down at Haverfordwest Station. A little old station down there and there were some MPs out on the platform. ‘What's gone wrong now?’ And they were giving us out forty eight hour leave pass and a warrant for the train.
DK: Right.
BM: They said, ‘Well, you've got forty eight hours leave.’ And we’d just come all that blooming way from God knows where. So I had to get back on the train, back to London, back up, well to Newark as far as I was concerned. Two lads were able to get off at London because they came from London.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But, and another lad, I’m moving on a little bit but we came back. Got back to Newark and I actually walked home to my wife. She wasn't my wife then. My fiancé. Just down the street here. I walked home from Newark station.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Quite a fair old walk. Got in at 8:00 o'clock in the morning. I walked in and said, ‘If you want to get married we're going to get married tomorrow.’ And that’s the first —
SM: He did. Yeah.
BM: It was the first she ever knew about it. We never discussed it but —
DK: That’s the way to do it.
BM: And I was —
SM: Yeah, but you knew you were going to be posted dad, didn’t you? You knew you were going to be posted away at that stage.
BM: Oh, aye. I know. Anyway, we fixed this up we were, we were going to get married. Well, a lot of pandemonium and all the rest of it. We had at that stage my wife’s house. In those days it happened quite a bit where you got service people were billeted —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: On somebody who had substantial accommodation. My wife was a farmer's daughter so they considered that they had enough square space to accommodate a couple of senior officers and they had a Wing Commander —
DK: Right.
BM: Who was the CO of the engineering outfit. Engineering officer at 5 Group.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: On Lancasters. And he was billeted up there. I used to get along with him like a house on fire. I didn't call him Bill and Fred and all the rest of it but, and this he treated me you know with respect and of course I did him. I mean a senior officer. And he said, my wife and the family were obviously going down to Nottingham to do some shopping. He said, ‘I'll take you to Newark.’ I mean, I had a wing commander, you know, I said, ‘Oh, my God.’ And he took them all off to catch the train at Newark Station. All the way there apparently because I wasn’t there, all the way there he was trying to persuade her all the time, ‘Now, are you sure you want to get married? You’re a bit young,’ and all this, that and the other, you know. She said, ‘Yes, we’re getting married.’ She wasn't twenty one of course, I wasn't either and anyway off they went to Nottingham and they came back and it was arranged that we would meet the officer and train and he got back to the train. And then of course in the meantime I think it was realised we didn't have a licence to get married and they’d got forty eight hours. So, and Saturday was already on its way. They kept the train waiting on Collingham Station while they went and hunted out my mother and my wife's mother to get their written permissions —
DK: Right.
BM: On the, on the licence application to be able to get married. So I went to, all the passengers on the train were enjoying this bit of drama. So I did that and then we carried on on the train. I went up to Newark. To Lincoln trying to, of course this was late in the day. This was teatime to get the rest of the particulars and we had to get a licence. Seven and sixpence and of course it was sod’s law it was Saturday and these sort of bods don’t work on Saturdays. But we went and hunted them up my sister and me and we got this blooming chap. Registrar of births, deaths and marriages. He was very good actually. We got him fairly late on in the evening and I said, ‘Well, I’m going abroad in a couple of days.’ I mean, this was happening all the time obviously.
DK: I was going to say I imagine it so—
BM: And he was, he was —
DK: It was quite common.
BM: So he fixed us up with a licence. Seven and six pence and that was, that was that. We got married the next day on the Sunday.
DK: Right.
BM: We’d got the vicar primed. There were no banns. Nothing like that. And my wife did a wedding breakfast. Wonderful for her. There were sixty people there present. All these had been notified in the previous twenty four hours.
DK: Yeah.
BM: My own father didn’t know, you know. I thought we’d better ring him up and tell him his son is going to get married. Anyway, we got married and had a sort of wedding breakfast and then off we went to Nottingham for a honeymoon and we came back on the Tuesday morning and we were back to London and back to Haverfordwest and that was our wedding. And two and a half years later I saw my wife.
DK: Right. So you did know you were about to be posted overseas then at this point did you?
BM: We did but we didn’t know —
DK: Where?
BM: Until actually we were on the train on the station.
DK: Right.
BM: At Haverfordwest.
DK: Right.
BM: We didn’t know.
DK: And that’s why you got the forty eight hours leave then.
BM: Yeah, we had the forty eight hour leave pass.
DK: [unclear] leave. Right.
BM: They didn’t give you much did they?
DK: No.
BM: Forty eight hours and —
DK: You had, you had no idea where you were going. Just that you were going overseas.
BM: Just that we were going.
DK: Right.
BM: That was it. And of course, a certain number of days and you were back. So —
DK: Can I just ask what rank were you at this time because you mentioned you —
BM: Oh, I was an air marshal or something like that, I think. I was a Sergeant.
DK: So you were a flight Sergeant then at that time.
BM: He’s there look.
DK: Ah. Oh right.
BM: That’s me. Good looking fellow wasn’t he?
DK: Yeah.
BM: Well, the woman was a good looking girl.
DK: Good looking lady.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Ok. So you were a flight Sergeant at that point then.
BM: Well —
DK: Sergeant. Yeah.
BM: I suppose so. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. So you’d gone back to Haverfordwest so you're now going overseas. So where did you —
BM: Yeah.
DK: Where did you go then?
BM: But we didn't know where.
DK: Yeah.
BM: They didn't give you a lot of information out and they said, ‘Well, you will be taking a new aircraft to Morocco.’
DK: Oh right.
BM: Rabat in Morocco. So we had to fly —
DK: And this was a Wellington was it?
BM: That was a Wellington. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Brand new. And of course what happens next? We were waiting for this and somebody went and smashed it up. They were doing an air test on it and smashed it up so they held us back. Not very long. Three or four days or something like that they kept us back. Until another one became available.
DK: Right.
BM: We got that. Took it down to Southampton and gave us all the instructions to get it to Rabat.
DK: Right.
BM: Which was a circuitous route to say the least because we had to go out to, we had to try and avoid France.
DK: France. Yeah. Spain.
BM: Spain. Portugal. All the, because we hadn't any ammunition.
DK: Right.
BM: They sent us out with his blooming brand new Wellington. We got all the guns we needed on it.
DK: [unclear]
BM: But there were no ammunition. We’d no ammunition because we had to load the thing up with as much fuel as you could get.
DK: Right.
BM: You know, you needed all that. You couldn't be wasting space on bullets.
DK: Right.
BM: And but allowing though if you happened to see a few Focke Wulfs come on you, on your tail but anyway we flew through the night and it would be —
DK: Did you go direct to Morocco then or —
BM: Did we —?
DK: Did you go direct to Morocco or stop on the way?
BM: No. We flew, oh sorry we flew direct from Southampton. We went out over the Channel Islands.
DK: Right.
BM: And we were alright being fairly closer in to France but we never went over any, any land.
DK: You didn't stop at Gibraltar or anywhere.
BM: No. No.
DK: You went all the way to Morocco.
BM: No. We didn't. We very nearly did but it was accidental. We came in towards, we thought, the navigator thought we’d got to Gibraltar and we did and then we suddenly realised Jesus better get out of this or else. They were a bit handy with the, with the loose cannon you know if they didn't have proper warning.
DK: Oh right. You weren't expected.
BM: Turn around quick.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And head out to sea to get a few miles behind us and then we went down, turned to port again and went further down across Northern Africa.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Morocco to Rabat.
DK: Right.
BM: From, that’s where we parked the plane and —
DK: So were you officially with the squadron now?
BM: No.
DK: Oh right.
BM: No. We were in transit.
DK: Ok.
SM: You had an incident didn’t you when you landed?
BM: We were, well actually it was rather interesting. We knew we were, we were getting dangerously short. We were living, or were flying on fumes pretty well.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Jesus. Keep paddling on and we got, we actually came in to land and we looked down and we ran out of fuel. It was cutting it a bit fine but the coincidental part of this was that a corporal came out in a little fifteen hundred weight truck to the end of the runway. We couldn’t get any further unless somebody was going to push us and he said, ‘What’s the problem?’ We’d no fuel and I looked at him and bloody hell. I went to school with him.
DK: Yeah?
BM: Yeah.
DK: The corporal who had just pulled up?
BM: I went past his, he was a farmer’s son.
DK: How strange.
BM: I went past it yesterday funnily enough. At Leverton. And he was, he was there, he wasn’t there but I don’t know whether their still, the family are still there now up to this day or, I don’t know.
DK: Did you both immediately recognise one another then?
BM: Oh aye. He recognised me and I recognised him because you’ve got to bear in mind that.
DK: Strange.
BM: This was in 1942.
DK: Right.
BM: Would it be? No. It was ’43. The end of ’43. We’d have not been from school long either him or me, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: It weren’t, we weren’t talking sort of years back so we hadn’t got to remember far back and he was, he was at school with us and there he was.
DK: How strange.
BM: Shepherding aircraft at this, on this blooming runway at Rabat. Anyway, we parked the plane up there and then we got instructions to move on via American transport plane I think.
DK: Right.
BM: We went sort of down the coast of Morocco and Algeria. We went to, stopped at an American aerodrome at Algeria and it was all sort of in transit.
DK: Right.
BM: And from there we moved around again and we moved across to Italy. To the heel of Italy.
DK: Right.
BM: Near Taranto. What were we talking about?
DK: Right.
BM: Yeah. No, it’s Taranto isn’t it? Right down in the coast. Grottaglie they called it.
DK: So, what were your thoughts about North Africa then when you got there and —?
BM: North Africa?
DK: Yeah. What was it, what was it like?
BM: A bit dry [laughs] but we didn’t really see a lot of it. I mean and unfortunately of course in those days we didn’t have much money to go out and buy cameras.
DK: Right.
BM: If we could have got cameras we couldn’t, we couldn’t buy film.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You couldn’t get the blooming stuff. I’ve got very few aircraft, very few photographs taken really of wartime and that sort of thing. But anyway we got across to Grottaglie.
DK: So the Americans were flying you across then.
BM: The Americans actually you see they landed on the west coast of Africa.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And they attacked it from —
DK: Operation Torch.
BM: The west and we were coming up from —
DK: Yeah.
BM: The Tobruk area. And [pause] Montgomery’s lot were meeting with the American.
DK: Yeah.
BM: What was his name? General, was it Mark Clark?
DK: [unclear] Yeah.
BM: Anyway, they went coming from, we were behind the Americans at that stage. They were moving into Africa and we only had to have a couple of spots in our squadrons and there was really no need to have done that if they could have found an aircraft with sufficient bods on it to fill it up to —
DK: Yeah.
BM: You know, to take it to —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Exactly where you wanted to be.
DK: So having arrived in Italy then, the heel of Italy are you, had you been allocated to a squadron at this point then?
BM: Yeah. We were on, we were on route right from our transport instructions. Our transport officer right from where we landed in Rabat.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: But then sort of under the control of a transport, you know a designated transport officer.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And he would just move us on from place to place and we were on 221 Squadron.
DK: Right. And 221, they were, they were flying Wellingtons again I assume.
BM: Yeah.
DK: And they were part of Coastal Command.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Or Middle East Air Force.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Coastal Command.
BM: I mean I've never actually been on any other aircraft until I got to Ferry Command.
DK: Right.
BM: It was always, my operations were always on Wellingtons. I did a tour of operations except one.
DK: Right.
BM: I was one short of completing.
DK: Right. So, and these were all from Italy then.
BM: Yeah.
DK: All these operations. So how many operations did you actually do?
BM: I should have done thirty and I did twenty nine.
DK: Right. Ok. So for Coastal Command then what what sort of form did those operations take?
BM: What?
DK: What were you actually doing on those operations for Coastal Command? What was your role as it were?
BM: Well, I suppose to a large extent it was reconnaissance.
DK: Ok.
BM: Shipping and troop movements and that sort of thing. But we always, we carried bombs and guns and pretty well every time we came back we’d line somebody up with a few bombs. But across and Greece —
DK: Right.
BM: Yugoslavia. Albania.
DK: So most of, most of your operations then they were actually were over land.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Rather than over the sea.
BM: Oh Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: Right.
BM: There were very little operations actually constantly over water. We were over water but I mean we were, we were attacking, if we knew they were there E-boats and that sort of thing and light armoured boats. We never encountered any heavy stuff.
DK: Right.
BM: And our biggest commercial boats would be about what? Six or seven thousand tonnes?
DK: Right.
BM: They weren’t massive big things you know because they were on basically on, on transport. On coastal transport you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Port to port and that sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Right around back by Trieste and Venice and back down the Italian coast but on, on one occasion we went across to Greece. We pretty well got through our designated number of trips to different places. Some of them were interesting, some of them were a bit sharpish but we never flew very high.
DK: No.
BM: We never did any of this twenty, twenty five thousand and stuff for it. If you knocked off the five it would be nearer. We [laughs] we had about —
DK: So what sort of heights were you?
BM: Five. On average about five thousand feet.
DK: Oh right.
BM: So we’d get a good view of what was going off down below. You know when you think about it we did a fair bit of chasing e-boats and that sort of thing. How do you tell a difference between an e-boat and an MTB for instance?
DK: At that, at that height.
BM: When it’s dark.
DK: Yeah. At that height or dark, it would be difficult.
BM: I thought at the time well I’m damned sure that wasn’t a blooming German. I reckon he was a Navy man that we just dropped some stuff on but it happened because we couldn’t tell one from another. If they didn't, if they didn't put up a rocket —
DK: Right.
BM: Or anything to warn us that you know that —
DK: You dropped a bomb.
BM: It’s a wrong place to do it or whatever.
DK: So you didn't have necessarily specific targets you just flew out.
BM: Yeah, and —
DK: Saw what was there and —
BM: Dropping them on, we were taking photographs.
DK: Right.
BM: Of what there was and where because obviously the military ones at that moment and used our own discretion.
DK: Really. So that your main role then was really intelligence.
BM: Basically.
DK: Reconnaissance type of thing.
BM: You know intelligence and reconnaissance.
DK: And if you saw something —
BM: Yeah. And if there was something which was obviously —
SM: Bomb it.
BM: Foreign.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You know you would, you’d just line them up. We did this on [unclear] I mean [unclear] is a lovely place to go for a holiday.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: But not if somebody is dropping some unpleasant stuff on top of you. And it was, it was summertime so short nights and that sort of thing. Getting broad daylight when we left and we came back. You had to bear in mind that nearly every time we went we went on our own.
DK: I was going to ask that. Were you just flying singly?
BM: We didn’t go as part of a group.
DK: Right.
BM: Two at the most.
DK: Right.
BM: You know. There was never big numbers of aircraft involved and we set off from Greece to come home and all of a sudden we were getting [pfft] coming past us [pause] And the rear gunner had said nothing about anybody chasing us or anything like that and we’d got two ME109s coming up behind us giving us a belt up the rear. And they actually shot out the port engine and the fuel. They did the, with doing the engine they did the hydraulics because the flaps, the undercarriage, the guns, everything was driven by that port engine.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: With hydraulics.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And if they did that that was goodbye Mary and they shot all this lot up and we ended up without any flaps, without any guns really, and we before we even knew anything was happening to us. You know there were guns, bullets were coming into us before we realised what damage was being done. Anyway, we put one engine out. Had to do. Stopped it so we were lucky the other one didn’t stop as well because the fuel was, you know floating backwards and forwards between one engine and another. But the, we had a, an American Marauder.
DK: Right.
BM: I don’t know whether you’ve ever —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: They were one of the early tricycle undercarriages.
BM: Yeah. Twin engine plane.
DK: Fighter bomber.
BM: Yeah.
BM: Twin engine thing. But the Americans apparently didn’t like them because they were stuffed full of guns. They’d guns coming out of them in all directions.
SM: You mean the Germans didn’t like them.
BM: But they were —
SM: Yeah.
BM: Very strongly armed.
SM: Yeah.
BM: And he’d seen this because there had been a number of aircraft had been on this exercise and he’d seen it so he told us afterwards and he came up and the, these two 109s didn’t hang about then. They don’t like Marauders because Marauders have got .5 guns on them.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we were all 303s which were like a, like a blooming peashooter. Anyway, the [pause] he came up with us. We’d no radio. Couldn’t talk to each other so he got busy flashing with his aldis lamp.
DK: Yeah.
BM: What the hell was he talking about? It was a job to understand what was, what was going backwards and forwards. Anyway, the gist of it was, ‘Are you ok?’ You know. Well, fortunately we were very fortunate indeed the navigator had just been nicked a bit but other than that nobody else got hurt and ok, so we carried on and eventually we got back to Bari, on the coast of Italy.
DK: Right.
BM: We headed for the nearest one that we could likely to get down at and it happened to be an American occupied station.
DK: Station. Yeah.
BM: And it’s only got a shortish runway on it and we came in to land on one engine, flaps down, undercarriage down. You’re not supposed to fly on, ought to be able to fly on one engine with all the hydraulics down. It won’t do it and it did. And we came around over the harbour nearly taking the masks off some ships which were in the harbour. It was really close to because you can’t do an overshoot with a lot of space. We came around again and came in a little bit slower and I think we were sort of trying to make sure that we got in the first time but we didn’t because we were halfway down the runway we were still airborne on a short runway. We tried to get around again and we got in. We came in to land low, lower and a little bit slower and we came in and damn me we put down and both tyres had been shot out and we didn’t know it. You can’t tell when you’re flying the blooming thing.
DK: No.
BM: If you looked out of the, you know but you weren’t bloody looking out and doing a bit of window gazing but both tyres and damage to the aircraft. Both tyres had been, we were told this when we got down but it was too late then because we’d no radio. You couldn’t, you know they couldn’t talk to us which was unfortunate and strangely enough when we came in the second time there were several blood waggons, ambulances, fire engines and that sort of thing lined up on the side of the runway so they were expecting somebody to have a bit of a bump. And the American, and as we came past where they were parked up on the end we could actually hear them. I could hear these, these blood waggons. You know they started up [whirr] As we were going down the runway they were behind us and of course the aircraft just went [pfft] That was it. The tyres were a bit empty. So it rather, apart from other damage that had been done by the bullets and that sort of thing it smashed it up a little bit.
DK: Did it remain on the undercarriage or did you —
BM: No. It collapsed.
DK: It had collapsed. Right. Ok.
BM: Yeah. You know, with flat tyres —
DK: Yeah.
BM: It does tend to do that.
DK: Yeah. It collapses on to the belly of the aircraft.
BM: Yeah. On to the rims.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And then I think the wheels went so we didn’t stop to hang about and have a look. Anyway, our CO —
DK: So you were all, you were all ok then when you got out.
BM: Oh yeah. Yeah. We got out as fast as we could get out. Get the lid open and get out and let them sort it out.
DK: Was the aircraft on fire at this point? Or —
BM: Well, I expected it to be.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But I realised that it was unlikely because you could smell petrol. It was unlikely to happen.
DK: Still didn’t want to hang around though did you?
BM: Because they were right behind us.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You know, they were going as fast as we were down the runway so, and a number of them as well. They’d got foam. I got hit with the blooming foam, with some foam as I was getting out. I didn’t mind that but couldn’t get out the top. Anyway, our CO he got in touch with the authorities on this aerodrome and he said, ‘I’ll come and fetch you.’ So he came down in his Wellington to pick us up. Oh, I didn’t tell you we’d moved up to Foggia.
DK: Yeah.
BM: From Grottaglie. Only on a sort of a temporary posting. We weren’t there many weeks because it was nearer a target point of view from Foggia than it was from Grottaglie. It was halfway up the country.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: And the Army were just moving further up. They’d got up to Rome and were moving slowly up. So we got moved back again to Grottaglie after that but we went back, they flew us back to Foggia. We’d one more operation to do to complete a full tour of operations and they gave us a weeks leave. A bit odd but I wasn’t going to turn it down because we, it was a weeks leave. There was a pass but we had to make our own way, our own transport. We had to hitch it. Oh, I am, I’m so sorry. Would you like a cup of tea or a cup of coffee?
DK: No. I’m fine thank you. Yeah.
BM: Really?
DK: Seriously I’m fine.
BM: I’m sorry about that.
DK: No. Don’t worry.
BM: My wife —
DK: I had one before I came out.
BM: My wife’s got dementia but, she’s very very deaf as well. She likes to keep out of the way. Very difficult for her.
DK: Ok.
BM: Anyway, we hitched across the country from Foggia to Sorrento and of course the roads were up, the bridges were up.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Italy is a country with a lot of bridges and a lot of rivers at [pause] We got there. We got to Sorrento eventually. Had a weeks leave. A lovely place Sorrento and [pause] have you ever been?
DK: I have. Yes. Yes. A few years ago.
BM: Been up in the Blue Grotto?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: Lovely place.
DK: Yes.
BM: To go swimming there. Anyway, same sort of trip back and after a week got back to Foggia and we were, at that point we were billeted in tents. We were always in tents. All the time I was in Italy we were always in tents and we were in amongst a lot of grape vines. You know everywhere there was blooming just coming, just coming eatable.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Well, barely eatable really. They were still very green and I got a lot of diarrhoea. Not a good thing to be flying an aeroplane when you’ve got diarrhoea.
DK: No.
BM: At all. Anyway, we —
SM: Was it your navigator that did the same thing?
BM: No. No. I was, I was the only one who got —
SM: Right.
DK: Diarrhoea.
BM: The wireless op got a bad cold but I don’t think the others were affected really. In fact, I never even saw them eating grapes. They maybe thought they were too sour. They really were very sour. They weren’t ready. They weren’t ripe. I got this and I had to go to the MO because we were down to — [ chiming clock] — Shut up you. It did you see when you talk to them right, you know.] And I had to go to see the MO because we were all down for an operation that night. The last one. I said, ‘I’m not fit to fly. I can’t fly. I’ve got the screamers. No good at all.’ He said, ‘Right. I’ll stand you down.’ And the wireless op said, well he’d got a very bad cold and he weren’t fit. You can’t use oxygen or anything like that when you were —
DK: No.
BM: It was unfortunate. So we stood down and got a replacement pilot and wireless op. Sent them off. They went off and that was it. I never saw them again.
SM: They didn’t come back.
DK: So all of your twenty nine operations then they were all with 221 Squadron.
BM: 221.
DK: Right.
BM: And that was it.
DK: And that was, the twenty ninth was the only time you were attacked by another aircraft then.
BM: That was all. Yeah. This was all due to being attacked by these —
DK: Yeah.
BM: FW 190s coming back from Greece. It all developed from that.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And —
DK: So, so at that point you’ve come back to the UK have you? Or —
BM: After that?
DK: Yeah.
BM: No. No. I finished and it was obvious they couldn’t trace the aircraft. That was the main thing. They were trying to trace it and there was no trace of it whatsoever and in fact, I’ve got a letter from the, from the War Office Records saying that extensive searches had been done for this aircraft and there was no sight or sound or record of where it was. What had happened to it.
DK: So this was the aircraft you should have flown on then?
BM: Yeah.
DK: And and the rest of your crew were —
BM: All down there.
DK: So —
BM: So there was two of us alive.
DK: Right. So your crew went out with a different pilot and a different —
BM: Different wireless op.
DK: Wireless operator.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And they were just never seen again.
BM: And they were never seen again.
SM: Maybe they were lucky grapes.
BM: How lucky can you be?
DK: Yeah.
BM: But another thing I’ve never mentioned either was that the air gunner went home on a forty eight hour leave when I did.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Same thing. He got married the same weekend, on the Sunday. Never saw his wife again.
DK: Right.
BM: After he went back.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: After the forty eight hour leave was up.
DK: Yeah.
BM: He went back and that was it.
DK: So as the —
BM: That was the length, sorry, that was the length of his marriage.
DK: Yeah. Blimey.
BM: One weekend.
DK: So at this point you, you knew then that the rest of your crew was missing.
BM: Yeah. And in fact, their names are inscribed on the War Memorial at Malta.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: And also at Runnymede.
DK: Runnymede.
BM: So the Middle East Air Force run the Malta one. I don’t know why this was done twice but I had no control over it. That’s where it is. I haven’t seen it at Malta but I have seen it at Runnymede.
DK: Do you know where they were flying too? What the operation was to or [pause] When they went missing?
BM: Yes. I do. I do. I’ve got it on a letter. I’ll give it to you in a minute.
SM: Ok.
BM: Will you go and fetch it for me, Simon? If you would. It’s in the kitchen. In a red book.
SM: Ok.
BM: On the table.
[recording paused]
BM: So we’d some, interesting I suppose is not quite the right word.
DK: You didn’t know this other pilot then that they flew out with.
BM: I’d never met him before in my life.
DK: No.
BM: I didn’t know who he was but he took my place and if he’d been a regular crew member —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Thank you. Thank you.
[pause]
BM: So, after that of course I was without a crew and they [pause] they sent me back to Egypt.
DK: Right.
BM: I came back by train down to Taranto. Then by boat. Came by boat over the water to [pause] I think it was Alexandria we came to.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And from there I went and did another OTU. Started that again with another new crew in Palestine.
DK: Wellingtons again.
BM: Wellingtons again.
DK: Again. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: I tried to get a transport, a transfer on to Hurricanes.
DK: Right.
BM: I wanted to go back to —
DK: Fighters.
BM: Fly the [pause] But they wouldn’t let me. Actually, I’ve started doing a bit of a journal. Memoirs. There’s still a lot to do at it but —
SM: Yeah. I‘ve given David, it’s just a brief summary of that.
BM: I’ve got about, I was hoping to include about fifty photographs. Yeah. I must tell you this that my father did a memoirs.
DK: Right.
BM: In the First World War and he actually won a Military Medal and a Military Cross.
DK: Oh Right.
BM: On the Somme.
DK: Right.
BM: He got a Military Medal as a corporal at a place called [unclear]
SM: [unclear]
BM: Eh?
SM: [unclear]
BM: Oh, was it?
SM: Yeah.
BM: His French is better than mine. And then a year later he was back on the —
SM: No, it wasn’t a year dad. It was two years later.
BM: Two?
SM: Yeah. He got his first one in 1916.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
SM: As —
DK: As a corporal.
SM: As a corporal.
BM: Yeah. Corporal.
SM: And —
BM: He got commissioned in the field.
SM: And then he went to Italy and he came back. Within a mile of where he won his first medal he won the second one —
BM: He got, he got —
SM: As an officer.
BM: No, he got a Military Cross.
DK: [unclear]
BM: And he was an officer then.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: He won the Military Medal and the Military Cross.
SM: He was lucky to survive.
BM: Yes. And he wrote at the age of eighty five something like this.
DK: Oh right.
SM: Well you’re ninety three and you’re doing —
BM: In fact, its yonder on that stool Simon. By the looks of it.
SM: Have you found that letter yet?
[pause]
BM: Look at that fella.
SM: I know. Are you looking for a particular letter dad?
[pause]
BM: There you are. Look. “Christmas Greetings and good wishes from the Royal Air Force Middle East.”
DK: Middle East. 1944.
BM: 1944. I’m looking for this blooming letter [pause] I’ve got it somewhere.
SM: Well, do you want me to look for it while you carry on chatting?
[pause – rustling papers]
BM: That’s your mother.
SM: Yeah. Let me have a look, dad while you carry on talking.
BM: There’s a, there’s a, there’s a letter from the —
SM: The War Ministry.
BM: Yeah.
SM: Let’s have a look then.
BM: Whether I’ve got it in the right book.
SM: Maybe not.
BM: Might be another one.
SM: Let’s have a look.
DK: So you’re at, so going back you’re now in Palestine.
BM: Oh I went to Palestine.
DK: You’re back in Palestine with another OTU.
BM: Hello.
SM: Hello mother.
DK: So you’re getting another crew together at this point then are you?
BM: We got that and when that course was complete we we went down from Port Tewfik at the end of the Suez Canal down to Aden.
DK: Right.
BM: In a troop ship. A lovely quiet gentle journey that was. We enjoyed that. The best part of the war up to that point and I learned to play Bridge as well.
DK: Oh right.
BM: The three fellas could play Bridge and they wanted a fourth. I could play cards but I couldn’t play Bridge. I’d never played Bridge. Anyway, right. Three days then. Very enjoyable. We got to Aden and then I got sent from Aden by Dakota, had to get up to Aden and then go up in a Dakota to a little island called Masirah which is just short of the Persian Gulf.
DK: Right.
BM: It’s up the Indian Ocean off the coast of Oman just before you go around the corner and go up the Gulf. That was 244 Squadron.
DK: Right.
BM: And we posted there and we got basically the same sort of job. Shipping reconnaissance in dhows, you know [laughs] you know, watching for smuggling but fortunately they didn’t shoot back at us.
DK: How many trips did you make with 244 Squadron then?
BM: I only did four.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BM: And then that was it.
DK: Right.
BM: Because the way that came about I got a rather nasty dose of sinus. I’d been in Palestine, and in hospital in Palestine rather, in Tel Aviv. I had about ten days in hospital with sinus. I used to get it pretty badly but anyway I had another dose and got to Queen Elizabeth Hospital In Aden and it was a thousand miles from where I was in Masirah to Aden and they laid on especially converted Wellington again to fly from Masirah down to Aden.
DK: Right.
BM: Especially laid on to take me a thousand miles.
DK: Oh right.
BM: And I was in there again ten days in this hospital and when I was better I had a call to the adjutant and he said, ‘I’ve got some good news and some bad news for you.’ He said, ‘Which do you want first?’ I said, ‘I’d better have the bad news first.’ He said, ‘Your squadron’s being disbanded.’
DK: This was 244. Yeah.
BM: He said, ‘Its just been disbanded,’ and he said, ‘You’ve been posted. You been posted to 36 Ferry Unit in [ Allahabad ] in India.’
DK: Right.
BM: And he said, ‘Your crew has been disbanded. Gone.’ They had apparently gone back to Cairo. To Egypt apparently. And he said, ‘The good news is you’ve been promoted to warrant officer.’ I said, ‘Oh well.’ Which do you want first? [laughs]
DK: So you were sent then to 36 Ferry Unit.
BM: So I got posted to 36 Ferry Unit.
DK: Right. Based in India.
BM: From the hospital in Aden. I didn’t go back to Masirah.
DK: Right.
BM: Flew straight there.
DK: To India.
BM: To India. Yeah. And I spent the next, what, eighteen months on 36 Ferry Unit in India. That’s alright because we didn’t spend much time at our own base. We were all over the place. You know, you’d maybe get sent back to Cairo or Heliopolis or —
DK: And what sort of aircraft were you ferrying about then?
BM: Well, as it happened I was in Dakotas but not as first pilot. I was the second pilot.
DK: Right.
BM: I was actually on Liberators.
DK: Oh right.
BM: They were four engine.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I liked flying those because in America everything was spot on.
DK: So you, while you were with the Ferry Unit then you were always as a second pilot.
BM: Not always as second pilot.
DK: Pilot. Yeah.
BM: It all depended on the availability of people to fly any particular —
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: Aircraft. And their ability to fly in any particular aircraft.
DK: So the Liberator was the first four engined aircraft that you flew.
BM: They were the first four engine that I flew. Yeah.
DK: And what did you think of the Liberators?
BM: For many things I liked them. They didn’t have the, they didn’t have the power that Lancasters and Halifaxes would have on two engines. You’ve got two engines you could nearly say well it’s goodbye Mary. They didn’t have, if you’d got any weight on at all you’d no chance.
DK: Right.
BM: But —
DK: So were you delivering new aircraft for the units then?
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: That was our main job was taking, moving new aircraft from MUs, service delivery points.
DK: Yeah.
BM: To say we’d go down to Ceylon with a new one and bring an old one back to Calcutta. Now that was all very well but some of these aircraft had never flown for several weeks or even months but stood out in the hot Indian sun didn’t do them a lot of good.
DK: Right.
BM: And [good morning. She keeps coming and having a look at us.] We had, early 1946 we had a stop put on Mosquitoes. I never actually flew a Mosquito. I always wanted to do but I never got the opportunity to. And there were two instances apparently where wings had fallen off. They reckoned it was because of the extreme heat that they’d been subjected to.
DK: Yeah. Like the glue.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And they were just stationed. Sat there in the sun and it subjected to a bit of extreme, you know, if they were doing a bit of manoeuvring and that sort of thing perhaps. A bit of extra strain on them. I don’t know what the reason was but anyway apparently two aircraft wings fell off and they put a stop on all movement of Mosquitoes.
DK: So at the war’s end then you’re in India still ferrying —
BM: Yeah.
DK: Aircraft about.
BM: Yeah. I mean the war ended, what was it? May 1945.
DK: Yeah.
SM: You’ve not mentioned about meeting up with your brother have you? While you were in India.
BM: Sorry?
SM: You’ve not mentioned about dad’s brother —
DK: Right.
SM: He was in the Army.
DK: Right.
SM: Flew out to, was it [Jahalabad] and you, he got him to impersonate RAF personnel. So he was, he stayed a week with my father.
DK: Yeah.
SM: And he was flying different aircraft all through the week. In fact, my father, this is my uncle told me that he went with dad was it on the Friday and were you in a Liberator at that time?
BM: Yeah.
SM: Dad took off and everything.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SM: My Uncle Robin was next to him and dad said, ‘Right. Ok. You can take over now.’ He said, ‘Just follow the Nile.’ And they all went back in to the back to play cards.
BM: Well, they did —
SM: And this was an Army officer.
BM: They needed the experience.
SM: Oh, he’d flown that week with different people.
DK: Oh, that’s ok then [laughs]
SM: And he was impersonating an RAF. He’s not flying a four engine aircraft.
BM: He’d just been promoted. He’d done a course as a promotion from an NCO.
DK: Yeah.
BM: He was a sergeant then to a second lieutenant and he came and had this week with me at Karachi because I wasn’t very well. Not Karachi. At [Allahabad] and I couldn’t do a lot in those days but he, we finished up with several different trips in different aeroplanes. Dakotas and Corsairs, Liberators.
DK: So you put him in Air Force uniform as well then.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Yeah. We dressed him up as a navigator. Well, it made it easier you see as we were walking around the aerodrome. He didn’t get stopped. If you were a young Army officer they’d say, ‘What are you doing?’
DK: Yeah.
BM: And if you were a navigator he could walk in the mess and go and have meals and everything. It was —
DK: Wasn’t his own unit missing him or —
BM: Was he?
DK: Was his own unit missing him at all?
SM: He was on leave wasn’t he?
DK: On leave.
SM: That’s what was commented in the first instance his brother I know it was a big place.
DK: Yeah.
SM: Where everybody was flying in and flying out from but —
DK: Obviously, [unclear]
SM: This always amuses me. My father has told me this but he hadn’t told me the bit about the playing at cards bit and its only until I saw my uncle Robin a few months ago.
DK: Yeah.
SM: That he told me the other side of the story. That on this one occasion he went up with my father.
BM: That’s life isn’t it?
DK: Oh yeah.
SM: He said, he was trying to fly this four engine bomber.
DK: Yeah.
SM: Because, he said during the week he’d been flying two engine ones which manoeuvred a lot easier and he said he was all over the sky with this four engine because every movement he made was so slow.
BM: ’Keep, keep it level. What the hell are you playing at?’
SM: Yeah. Dad came back and said, ‘Oh, that was a rough ride.’ [laughs] But you know at that age you think bloody hell. The risks they took. Yeah. Didn’t give a damn.
BM: He enjoyed it. The little incident though that took place while he was there. Our CO, we had a bit of a scheme where good watches were in short supply. You know, you couldn’t just go and pick up a nice —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Omega watch or something like. A decent watch and he had a scheme where just once a year he would raffle off half a dozen. I don’t know whether the the NAAFI part of job organised the thing. They bought a half a dozen Omega watches.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Omega, you know were decent watches and he’d buy these and he would raffle them off. Well, anybody who wanted to go in the raffle it didn’t matter whether they were an officer, NCO, whatever they were they could put their names down and have it drawn it out and you’d get to get, you had to pay proper price for them but at least you had the privilege of getting one.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Which was even difficult to do that. So my brother Robin and myself both put our names down for a blooming watch and damn me if we didn’t get one. Out of six watches and hundreds of people who actually —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Put their names down for to get the raffle he and me got one.
SM: You both got one.
BM: Both got one.
BM: And we’ve still have them today.
BM: You still have them. Oh wow.
BM: I don’t use mine but the last time I had it it was it was going but it was losing a lot of time and he said he’d still got his.
DK: Oh right.
SM: I didn’t know that.
BM: That was 1946.
DK: Right.
BM: And they’re still going. Omega watches.
DK: You might just need it serviced.
SM: Yeah. I’ll get dad to do that.
DK: It would be worth doing.
SM: Yeah. It’s worth doing for nostalgia, isn’t it?
DK: Exactly. Yeah.
BM: I ought to write to them.
DK: Yeah. Hopefully a watch —
BM: I might get a free watch from them.
SM: We’ll get that sorted.
BM: Yeah. I’d do well to get a free watch didn’t we? We got two of them. Not one. We’ve got two circulating. I’ll tell you what though. A little tale of it it just reminded just recently Lord Mountbatten was Viceroy of India of course and we used to hear about him circulating and different things and on one occasion he came as a trip of inspection. He came to our unit to inspect not just us I mean we were only a very small unit and we got a, unless actually in Charingi in Park Street in Calcutta probably about twice as big as this room and that was it but it was ours and you know it was a very quiet little place. Anyway, he came to visit us on this particular occasion and he flew in, he had this own private Dakota. He flew in and a guard of honour was all out there on the Parade Ground there and called them to attention inspecting them and away he went. Job done. Half an hour later another one flew in. Another Dakota. Looked like an identical aircraft and it was his wife, Lady Mountbatten. She flew into this. Have you heard this tale before? I should doubt it. Anyway, she flew in and the same thing. Got the same guard of honour. Three rows of troops all out there, sort of thing and she inspected the first row and as she walked down the second row her lady in waiting walking at the back of her with our CO at the side of her and she suddenly bent down and picked up something and dropped it in her handbag and carried on down the next row and back. At the end of the third row off she went. The lady in waiting. Nicholas.
SM: Her pants had dropped off.
[laughter]
SM: She never batted an eyelid from what dad said.
BM: It’s true this is. She, she actually walked off that parade ground knickerless. Well, we’d have had a titter about it and her lady in waiting there I don’t know what [laughs] I was too far to see. I saw it happen. There was a few of us there who were watching the parade but we didn’t know actually, I couldn’t prove it was a pair of knickers that she actually dropped but it was. She’d dropped them off.
DK: Oh dear.
BM: And she never batted an eyelid.
DK: No. Well —
BM: She went up and down those three rows. Never said a word. Funnily enough about two days, three days later the [unclear] got the same incident in mind and I happened to be appointed the officer of the guard. All the lads would take it in turns, you know. We’d do a weeks duty. Officer of the guard and that sort of thing and being a warrant officer I had the same job to do as a, as a commissioned officer.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And as I said there weren’t many of us.
SM: He did turn his commission down by the way.
BM: I called them all, called all the guard to attention and turned around. Saluted the flag. All the guard pulled it down but the blooming thing didn’t shift. I stood looking like a fool looking at it waiting for it and it still didn’t. I looked at the bottom and there was nobody there to pull it down so I said [laughs] I had to turn around and say, ‘Carry on Sergeant.’ And off I went. I had a bit of a red face I can imagine. I had to spend the rest of that week on, on guard duty. Well in charge of the guard every so often. I mean we, we were a bit security conscious.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we used to go shuffling around in a, you know a jeep around the perimeter of the aerodrome and looking at different units seeing that you know they were all at different places out on guard with their rifles.
DK: So, how long were you in India for then?
BM: Well, I left in India in the end of June ’46.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: And I came back.
DK: Back to the UK.
BM: By train to Karachi.
DK: Oh right. Yeah.
BM: And then by boat. I didn’t fly back.
DK: Right.
BM: I came back by boat from Karachi. Crossed the India Ocean and the Suez Canal and the Mediterranean and then all the way back to Liverpool.
DK: So did you spend much more time in the Air Force after that or were you demobbed?
BM: No. No. No. You see I was married.
DK: Right.
BM: I had a very quick fire marriage. I got married and it was two and a half years later when I saw my wife.
DK: Yeah. So you left, you left the Air Force at that point.
BM: I left the air force and went to, Cirencester I think was the DPC or the, you know the unit where they disbanded the [pause] I’d had five and a half years in the control of the RAF because I joined up in February 1941.
DK: Right.
BM: And actually I left the control of the RAF in August 1946.
DK: Right. So what did, what did you, what was your career after that then? What were you —
BM: I, well I became actually a retired peasant.
DK: Right [laughs]
SM: He was offered the chance to fly for the Canadian —
DK: Right.
SM: Not the Air Force. The civilian.
DK: Oh right.
SM: Which was a big honour.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SM: Because everyone wanted to do that.
DK: Yeah.
SM: And mother wouldn’t go out. Not Canadian. Australian.
DK: Australia. What? Qantas.
BM: Qantas.
SM: Yeah. That’s —
DK: Right. Yeah
BM: Yeah.
DK: So you didn’t. You didn’t carry on your flying then after that.
BM: [clock chiming] It’s your fault. Yes. My wife didn’t want me to go and do it. I communicated with her and she said, ‘No.’ I’d been away a long time. ‘You want to come back and get some work done.’ I came back and I joined where I’d left off.
DK: Right.
BM: With my father’s little village business.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BM: You know, as a —
SM: You did, you did rent a light aircraft for several years though didn’t you? You did fly again. You still flew.
BM: Well, yeah, I got a private pilot’s licence.
DK: Right.
BM: That’s a year. I think he reminded me because he came a time or two and —
DK: So you carried on flying for a few more years then.
BM: Yeah. I did a bit of private flying in an Auster.
DK: Right.
BM: As a friend of mine had kept it up at —
SM: He still has been flying until —
BM: Say what?
SM: I don’t know. The last two or three months.
DK: Oh right.
SM: My son flies.
DK: Oh right. Ok. So he’s still going up then.
SM: He’s still going up.
DK: Excellent.
BM: His his son is all over the blooming place. He went to Le Touquet not very —
SM: He was up in Scotland near Cumbernauld yesterday.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Where?
SM: Cumbernauld. In Scotland. Near Glasgow.
BM: Did he? He’s all over the blooming place his lad.
DK: Ok. Well, I’ll finish there. I think that’s really good. Thanks for that. I’ll just ask one final question. All these years later how do you look back on your time in the RAF? What’s your feelings now?
BM: Well, in some ways obviously there are some regrets. I mean I regret the opportunity to go to Qantas. They reckoned I had the experience, you know in the different aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And this, that and the other. And you know probably capable of doing it. But I didn’t do it and I’ve always regretted that.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I mean, talking about the experience. When we were out in India we got a signal from Air Headquarters which was in Delhi. Headquarters for our lot anyway. No. The Far East Headquarters were in Delhi. I got a signal, or my CO did. ‘Warrant Officer Minnitt is to go take the unit Expeditor.’ You know what they are?
DK: Yeah. Twin engine plane. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: Lovely aircraft. ‘And go to Delhi, pick up a senior officer and fly him to Munich.’
DK: Right.
BM: Which is a fair old way. Had to fiddle with fuel a time or two but the CO said, ‘You, you can’t do it.’ No. Let’s get this right. The MO said, ‘You can’t do it.’ Because I’d not been very well. But the CO said I could. You know, he said, ‘You can go and do it.’ And as I say we were more or less on personal terms. We were, we were such a small unit.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I mean, little instances crop up from time to time that you think about it but you said, ‘What are your feelings about it?’ Well, I enjoyed my time in the RAF I must admit. There were many instances which was, you might think well they were a bit rough but it happens. I mean one night for instance we, when we were at Grottaglie it was a bombed out hangars aerodrome. No roof or anything like that on them. If we wanted to see a film we had to wait until it was dark and then we would take our own petrol tin, a five gallon petrol tin and that was our seat.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You could sit on that and you could watch a film. It was alright. Better than nothing.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we were doing that one night and looking at a Wellington take off and it was one of ours and he got to near the end of the runway and he just, he got airborne, he went down again and [pfft] Fully laden. Fully fuelled up. And we ran across to it and all we could find was a boot. Something like that you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: There was nothing. With four thousand pounds of bombs and full tanks you’ve got no choice. And we don’t know why. He just didn’t have enough speed.
DK: He needed to take off.
BM: To get up. And we saw it happen. Just, I mean, these sort of things did happen. That’s part of, I wouldn’t say it was part of life but I mean it, they did happen and there you go. You live with it.
SM: Well one of your very first experiences dad was, if you remember —
BM: Eh?
SM: When you, before you joined up the RAF you joined the [pause]
BM: Oh aye.
SM: Not Dad’s Army. They didn’t call it Dad’s Army then.
BM: I joined the ATC.
DK: The ATC, yeah
BM: Artillery training. Was it auxiliary training?
DK: Air Training Corps.
BM: Something like that. Anyway —
SM: There was an aircraft wasn’t there crashed at Laneham.
BM: Yeah. It did.
SM: And you were the first there. Only as a young man.
DK: Yeah.
BM: This was the, well it was a squadron actually based in Lincoln. What was it? 1265 or something like that. I forget the squadron. And they’d got, they’d got this which I joined and I was in the Home Guard at the time. I was always in blooming uniform. From the Home Guard right from 1940. But a Hampden came around the river at Laneham where I lived and I was talking to one of my, the other side of the road and this big bang and we got on the bike and went to have a look at it and it had come around the river at Laneham very low and didn’t make the bend.
DK: Right.
BM: And it was a Hampden from Scampton. They bunged us in and again that was all little bits and pieces and this pal of mine I mean we went to, we thought we were good you see. We were in uniform. Home Guard. And we went to keep the spectators away from it all.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And all the rest of it and it was still bobbing off fireworks. Bombs, not bombs, bullets kept going off. Aircraft tanks exploding and that sort of thing. It was a right old mess. So eventually the RAF fire brigade turned up and some other I think there were one or two police came and didn’t need us around any longer so we just packed in and came home. But that was my first experience of flesh. Burned flesh. You get used to it you know. It happened from time to time. And so —
DK: Yeah. This this incident then obviously didn’t put you off joining.
BM: No.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Not at all.
DK: No.
BM: I mean, it was rather when that time came we went to what were the new barracks at Lincoln and, ‘What have you come for?’ ‘We’ve come to join up.’ We were seventeen when we did it, he and I. ‘What do you want to join up as?’ ‘An air gunner.’ ‘You want to join as an air gunner. Right.’ Filled in all the paperwork and I don’t know whether it was at that point that I said we actually went to Cardington. You know where they made the old —
DK: Yeah. The airship hangars.
BM: Airships.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And that sort of thing. And we did the actually, the joining procedures. You’ve got the filling in —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Give you your numbers and that sort of thing. My number is nearly 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. It’s 1 2 3 2 3 4 7.
DK: And you still can remember it now.
BM: You see, very close to it. And he said, ‘Well, why don’t you remuster as a pilot?’ and I wonder sometimes wonder why. Why was that?
DK: I find that quite unusual actually because other sort of veterans I’ve spoken to they nearly all wanted to go in as pilots.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: But they crashed out for some reason.
BM: Yeah.
DK: And then remustered.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Under a different trade.
BM: Yeah.
DK: It’s unusual to hear somebody —
BM: Yeah.
DK: Who wanted to go in as an air gunner and ended up as a pilot. Yeah.
BM: We thought to be an air gunner you know it was all very glamourous and we were going to shoot them all down. Bang bang bang. They said, well that was, we don’t shoot them down but the, we went the other way. I’ll be honest with you. I left school at fourteen. My education wasn’t wonderful in those days and I finished and that’s basically is the reason why I wasn’t commissioned.
DK: Right.
BM: Because I was, you never found anybody commissioned who hadn’t been to a secondary school at least.
DK: Right.
SM: But didn’t you turn your commission down because you were going to be worse off?
BM: Oh, but that was later. That was when I was out in India. I was offered the opportunity to take a commission. That was in 1945. I thought well the war would be over by the end of this year.
DK: Yeah.
BM: No point in having it because I’m better off now as a warrant officer in the uniform I was wearing. The type of uniform, the perks I’d got.
DK: Yeah.
BM: The money I got and I was getting an extra bonus and that sort of thing. I was better off than I was as a flying officer never mind a pilot officer so I, you know I didn’t have any mess fees to pay and all that sort of thing.
DK: So you think then as you left school no qualifications at fourteen the Air Force was good for you in that respect.
BM: It was. It was good for me.
DK: Helped you learn and that —
BM: In that, in that respect. It must have been. I mean, as I say my education was, left a lot to be desired but it was made up in a way with the experiences that I’d got.
DK: Yeah.
BM: In different things and different parts of the world and that sort of thing and that I should never possibly have got in civil life. And I went around the world quite a bit. I mean, I went across the world that way. To Canada. The other side again.
DK: Canada. And then —
BM: Then came back the other way. Right across North Africa. Italy. Middle East. Palestine. Into Aden.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Masirah. India. [Allahabad] and then flying. I did quite a bit of flying into Burma and the war was still on then but places like [Agatara] [unclear] and delivering aircraft in to their places. Into their units and flying their old crap out back to the Mus. We used to go down to Ceylon quite a bit. We enjoyed it. I mean, it was like I just missed out on that opportunity of going to Australia but there we are. These things happen.
DK: Yeah. Ok then. Well, I’ll stop it there I think. Thanks very much for your time. That’s been very interesting. Thanks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bruce Minnitt
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMinnittPB170314
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:02:47 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Bruce Minnitt served in the Second World War flying Wellingtons on maritime reconnaissance in the Mediterranean and B-24s in India. When war started Bruce joined the Home Guard, and in 1941 when reaching 18 years of age, he enlisted in the Royal Air Force. He actually wanted to be an air gunner but was assessed as suitable for pilot training. His flying training was carried out in Alberta, Canada. After over two years of rationing, he enjoyed the improved diet he received in Canada. Flying in an open cockpit through a Canadian winter was particularly challenging. On his return to Great Britain, he was posted to No. 6 Operational Training Unit near RAF Carlisle to fly Wellingtons. He was then sent to RAF Haverfordwest, from where he was sent on leave for 48 hours before being sent overseas. Arriving home, he proposed, and married by special licence before returning to his unit. It was to be over two years before he saw his wife again. On return to his unit he was tasked with delivering a Wellington to Rabat in Morocco. From here, Bruce joined 221 Sqn in Southern Italy. He flew 29 maritime reconnaissance operations, but before what would have been his final operation, both Bruce and the wireless operator became ill and had to be replaced. His crew failed to return from their final operation. He describes one sortie when his aircraft was attacked by two Me 109s. With no radio or hydraulics, they were forced to divert and upon landing they discovered both main wheels had been damaged. Luckily, the airfield was aware of their plight and were able to dispatch immediate assistance when they crash landed. Allocated with another crew in Egypt, he carried out four further operational flights on 244 Squadron, and following its disbanding, Bruce was posted to 36 Ferry Unit in India. He spent the remainder of the war delivering B-24s to operating units throughout South East Asia. Bruce finally returned in June 1946 and having declined the opportunity to remain a member of the RAF, was subsequently demobbed. Whilst in India, Bruce met up with his brother, a serving army officer who was on leave. By disguising him as a RAF officer, Bruce was able to smuggle him on board to enable him to accompany Bruce on a delivery flight.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales--Pembrokeshire
England--Cumbria
Mediterranean Sea
India
Canada
Alberta
North Africa
Morocco
Morocco--Rabat
Italy
Egypt
India
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
221 Squadron
244 Squadron
aircrew
B-24
civil defence
crash
Home Guard
love and romance
Me 109
military discipline
military living conditions
military service conditions
pilot
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Silloth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1052/11430/POatleyK1701.2.jpg
be795ca0b07853007aa77c562bfeb00c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1052/11430/AOatleyK170321.1.mp3
9f337a41a3840e6e82e8841355f9d0a1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oatley, Ken
K Oatley
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ken Oatley (b. 1922). He flew operations as a navigator with 627 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-21
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Oatley, K
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DK: I’ll just introduce myself, so, this is, this is David Kavanagh introduce, interviewing Ken Oatley at his home [file missing] borne, 21st of March 2017. So, I’ll just put that down there.
KO: Surely.
DK: Hang on, If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still working
KO: Still functioning,
DK: Still functioning, yeah. It’s, it can be a bit temperamental at times, that looks, that looks ok. [unclear] that. I’ll just like to ask so first of all, what were you doing before the war?
KO: I was going to be a professional violinist.
DK: Really?
KO: My father, I won a scholarship to the Royal Academy when I was fifteen,
DK: Right.
KO: But I had no one to live with in London so I had to put it off for another year, then I had to take an examination that year to get the exhibition the year after that which actually brought me up too far close to the war and, even then, I had a year to go before I could get into the Air Force so I joined the Home Guard, did my duties as far as I could from then, and at that time, it was the 13th of September I think of ’39 that I was in headquarters and the phone rang and call out all the home guard, we’re anticipating the invasion immediately, so that passed over of course and October came and I thought, well, really it’s time and I just was old enough then to volunteer so I volunteered for aircrew in October of 1940.
DK: [unclear] back to me, when you were in the Home Guard, what were your sort of roles then? What were you actually doing, were you guarding anything or?
KO: No, I was in headquarters most of the time, but I had to take out messages or anything that required, you know, but I was there nights and so forth.
DK: So were you mostly young men there waiting to be called up or sort of [unclear]?
KO: No, no, they were all a lot much older than me.
DK: Alright. Alright, so you applied then to the Air Force, so
KO: Mh.
DK: It was always your intention then to,
KO: I always wanted to fly.
DK: Alright. Yeah, so did you actually go into pilot training then?
KO: Yes, in, I started flying in April of ’41, it was April so, anyway. And did the usual six weeks at Blackpool and then waiting for a course to come around they sent me to Northern Ireland guarding an auxiliary airfield there against the IRA and then in Maytime they sent me over then to Scone, that Scone, there was at, oh God! This is, my memory is, north of, in Scotland,
DK: Ah, ok.
KO: On the east coast top, anyhow that was the biggest town north. We were there prepared to go down to ITW then at Scarborough, by, by June then I was flying from Sealand on the wirrell
DK: What type of aircraft were you flying?
KO: Tiger Moths.
DK: Ah!
KO: Which I did, I loved flying and I had the aptitude for it and I really thoroughly enjoyed my time there, it was wonderful.
DK: What did you think of the Tiger Moth?
KO: Oh, I liked it very much and I, our last hour or two that we had on the course, my friend and I, we were supposed to be going out for three quarters of an hour flight at night in the evening, come back and report and then go back and do another three quarters of an hour so I said to my mate, well, this is a bit of a waste of time, I’ll meet you over the river Dee and we’ll have a dogfight, which we did. When time came to, to come back to report in, he disappeared and I thought, well, I don’t know where the heck I am [laughs], we wandered about somewhat for three quarters of an hour so I had, eventually I had to give up and I saw a farm with smoke coming out of the chimney and I decided, well, that looks alright so I made a forced landing into this field, knocking out a host of surveyors posts on the way down and a ditch that was half way across which I hadn’t noticed. Anyhow I landed there and a motorcyclist came in and I got out and spread my map on his handle bars and asked him where I was and he gave to, I was in the middle of Lancashire so I flew back and,
DK: You’ve gone that far south?
KO: Yes. So, anyway, I was up for the wing code the next morning,
DK: Were you able to take off out the field then?
KO: Yeah, I did, half the field
DK: Yeah, so that was
KO: It was,
DK: Damaged the aircraft?
KO: No, no, it was a bit dodgy, there was a wood at the end of the field and I just caught the width to the corner of it and I managed to get through, anyway we landed there and the next morning I was up in front of the CO and charged which it was going to be a court martial but he let me go on [unclear] cause I was the first one to solo [unclear] thirties so I thought, you know, I’m made for this and so I was taken off the Spitfight posting and ended up in Canada flying Oxfords. We were on the Oxfords for some while and then there was, Bennett was just do the Pathfinders setup and he had no navigators, only map readers really, observers, don’t tell him I [unclear], but he had no navigators so he took five pilots off of every pilots course in Canada, brought us home to do the Middle course on the navigators, then go onto flying,
DK: So, you were actually on a pilot’s course in Canada.
KO: Yeah, yeah.
DK: Got called off by Bennett,
KO: Yeah,
DK: Because he needed navigators,
KO: Yeah,
DK: How did you feel about that at the time?
KO: Not very happy, I must admit, but anyway.
DK: How were you chosen, was it almost a lottery or?
KO: Well, I don’t know, I think probably I wasn’t landing them very well. I came down [unclear], the approach was hundred percent, I touched down on the wheels, nice and quietly, as soon as the tailwheel had dropped, which off the runway we’d had, my instructor never once told me that I should be doing three point landings, never mentioned, then when the CFI took me up, I did the same thing and he then asked my instructor whether he’d taught me three point landings, of course he said, oh yes, of course he has, and so I was one of the five that got tucked out.
DK: So, it might have been poor training on the trainer’s part, not I suppose, [unclear]
KO: Well, I mean, it seems simple enough, things say you should be doing three-point landings. I landed quietly and smoothly, you know, and,
DK: And this would have been the Oxford, would it?
KO: Yeah, yes. Anyhow I came back home, nearly torpedoed on the way home.
DK: Can you remember which ship you came back on?
KO: [unclear] Dam and just out of Halifax I was on my sway hammock and there was an enormous bang, I thought, my God, we’d been torpedoed, and I bet, I was four flights down and I bet I was, tops of that before anybody else [laughs]. However, there happened to be a torpedo, a destroyer had come alongside and for no apparent reason, and he happened just to take the torpedo and the thing was sunk with all hands and we just carried on, there was fire
DK: You can’t remember the name of the destroyer that was lost?
KO: No, no, no.
DK: No. Did you actually see it go down or?
KO: No,
DK: No.
KO: But we were told.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But you see, we were in two passengers, well, one was obviously a passenger ship and we were in a sort of half and half but there were five hundred aircrew on board ships, then we had several destroyers flying around us all the way back across the Atlantic. It took three weeks coming home cause we went all over the place and got back to England and put me on the navigation course which we did one course at Grand Hotel, oh, Eastbourne,
DK: Right. Yep, yep.
KO: Six weeks and then we were sent off on a ship again, I thought, we are going back to Canada again, which I didn’t like cause I got engaged to a girl in Canada while I was out there. Anyway, we went to South Africa and I was, from start to finish it was nearly eight months, wasted out of my flying time, going down there, doing the course and coming back again and we spent three weeks at Clairwood race course in tents. Then they moved us to East London and we were there for another six weeks and while we were there I met somebody there quite out of the blue, he asked me what we did, what our hobbies were, said well, I played the violin, oh, he said, I know somebody who’d be interested in you so he took me up the road to this gentleman and he said, would you like to play me something? So I played him one of the better class pieces that I used to perform and he said, would you like to play with the municipal orchestra on Sunday? This was Thursday, so I did that and did that the following month, so that was the virtually, the last time I played the violin at all, really.
DK: So you never played it since then?
KO: No, not really, no.
DK: No, no.
KO: So, anyway we got back and messed about for ages and I did,
DK: How did you feel when all this was going on, you were going to South Africa [unclear] was there a certain amount of frustration or?
KO: Yes I, you know, it was very enjoyable,
DK: Yeah.
KO: But it wasn’t what I wanted to do. Anyway we got back and there was so many aircrew trained here messing about Bournemouth was full of them all the time, they didn’t know what to do with us, anyhow we ended up at Harrogate, we were sent off on a commander course to start with at Whitley Bay, six weeks and then they sent me up to Scone to sit in the back seat of a Tiger Moth with a [unclear] recently qualified pilot in front and I was another six weeks messing about there, well, that was barely started the navigation course properly so I don’t think I was gonna get there.
DK: Was navigation something you took to easily, was it?
KO: Oh yes, I was, no worries about that, and then I was onto OTU and from what I understand I was, uhm, was the top of the class in both flying and ground subjects and,
DK: Can you remember which OTU it was you went to?
KO: I can never remember the name of it, was north of Oxford.
DK: Right. Is not in there, in the logbook.
KO: It would be, I suppose. It’s more likely in the back of my pilot’s, pack of pilot’s
DK: That one.
KO: But in the back,
DK: Oh, right, ok. So, what year are we talking about now then? It’s,
KO: That’ll be ’42.
DK: ’42, alright. So that’s the Oxford, so that’s ’41, ’74, you are still flying in ’74.
KO. Oh that’s, that’s flying here.
DK: Right.
KO: It’ll be very, very close to, no, but it wouldn’t be in there, yes, on the back, on the back page, I got all the
DK: Ah, right.
KO: All the,
DK: Ah, right, ok, so ’40,
KO: In, here, up here.
DK: [unclear] ’43.
KO: And here.
DK: 16.
KO: 16.
DK: Ah, right, so, I’ll just say this for the benefit of the tape so it’s 16 OTU Upper Hayford. So you were there from the 10th of August 1943,
KO: Yeah,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Then we went onto Scampton and then to Swinderby.
DK: And that was,
KO: On Stirlings
DK: 16
KO: We did Wellingtons at
DK: 16 OTU
KO: 16 OTU,
DK: Yeah,
KO: And then we went on the Stirlings
DK: And that was at Swinderby
KO: Yes and then the Lancs
DK: Right, so, at 1660 Conversion Unit, Swinderby, that was the Stirlings.
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah, and then at Syerston,
KO: Yes,
Dk: That was 5 Lancaster finishing school.
KO: Yes.
DK: So, at Upper Hayford was the Wellingtons?
KO: Yes.
DK: Yes, so what was your feeling about the Wellington then as an aircraft?
KO: Oh, fine and my pilot that I had there, although he hadn’t all that many arrows in, he was fine and we got on very well, our crew was first class and everything we did, we were quite well appraised for.
DK: So how did your crew get together then?
KO: Oh, we all, they put us in a hangar and said, I’m sorry, sort yourselves out, so to speak, you know.
DK: You just found yourselves a pilot,
KO: Yes, from
DK: Do you think that worked well?
KO: Yes, it did in our case.
DK: Yeah.
KO: I had an excellent crew and I was very sorry that we went on from there to Metheringham,
DK: Right.
KO: With Gibson squadron.
DK: 106 Squadron.
KO: And my pilot went on a Second Dickey trip with his, with a crew that were on their last operation,
DK: Right.
KO: And failed to return. So, we were sent back to Scampton again in to be recrewed. If they’d given us another pilot, which would have been more sensible, they split the whole crew up as far as I can [unclear] gave us another crew of odd bodies that they had and he wasn’t too bad, he wasn’t as good as my other pilot, you know, they were a little bit lumpy, but see my trouble was, my navigator’s seat was well back from the front and as I remember it seems I had a little office of my own now, the only,
DK: This was the Wellington,
KO: Stirling.
DK: Stirling, right, ok.
KO: And my only chance of talking to the pilot was on the intercom.
DK: Right.
KO: So I never was anywhere near him. It was when we got on to Syerston to the Lancaster, I was sitting right behind him as you realised and he had the most dreadful body odour that you could ever imagine, it really was out of this world,
DK: Oh dear,
KO: And so I took the crew up to the wing commander after we’d just sort of finished the early stages with the Lanc and I said, I can’t fly with this bloke, we all agreed, nearly court martialled, I [unclear] go for, go for a [unclear] you know and anyway we sent back to Scampton again and,
DK: So, you’ve gone back to Scampton for a third time.
KO: Yes, yes.
DK: Alright. When you, just going back to 106, you never met Gibson then, did you?
KO: No.
DK: I, just for the, slightly confusing that for the tape, just for the benefit of the tape, what I’ll say here is where you were, so initially it was Upper Hayford with 16 OTU from the 10th of August 1943, then it was Scampton 15th of December ’43, then 1660 Conversion Unit at Swinderby from the 8th of February ’44 on Stirlings,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then 5 Lancaster finishing school at Syerston,
KO: Yes.
DK: from 28th of March ’44, obviously on Lancasters, then 106 Squadron your pilot went missing as a Second Dickey, so back to Scampton again, then Swinderby,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then 5 Lancaster finishing school, Syerston again,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then back to Scampton because it’s problems with the pilot,
KO: Yes. On 106.
DK: On 106, and then on, I’ve got here, then onto 627, so that was, that’s the next question,
KO: Yes, yeah.
DK: Yeah, ok. So, you’ve complained about your pilot then and what happened then?
KO: Oh, they didn’t do him any harm or anything, I’m just, my memory gets so bad at times, other times I can go with, like, you know, what was the question?
DK: It was, you’re back at Scampton and you complained about the pilot, cause of the body odour,
KO: Yes.
DK: So what happened then?
KO: Well, straight away I was sent to Woodhall Spa from there.
DK: Right, ok. And that’s with 627 Squadron.
KO: 627 Squadron, yes.
DK: Yeah, ok. So, what were you flying at 627 then?
KO: Mosquitoes.
DK: Yeah. What did you think about the Mosquito?
KO: Oh, marvellous.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Yes, I, never complaints about the Mosquito.
DK: Was it a bit of a shock when you’ve gone from four engine bombers?
KO: It was lovely.
DK: Yeah. So you,
KO: Oh. Beautiful.
DK: So you never flew any operations on the four engine bombers?
KO: No, not again, no, no, no. It was all on the Mosquitoes from there on.
DK: Alright.
KO: And then of course the first, the move from Metheringham to Woodhall Spa was like chalk and cheese, you know, [unclear] it, well, every moment we, there we enjoyed the flying and the operational side of it and,
DK: Yeah.
KO: It was just something once in a lifetime, you know.
DK: What was Woodhall Spa like as an airfield then?
KO: It was big enough for what we wanted cause they were flying 617 from there as well so they had to cover the twenty thousand pound bomb weight on runways cause it was just a small camp, on the outside there was no main buildings to it at all, we were very much countryfied.
DK: Did you go to the Petwood Hotel at all?
KO: No, that was 617’s privilege that was,
DK: Ah, right.
KO: We were in the Nissen huts.
DK: [laughs] oh, ok.
KO: Which was a bit of a comedown.
DK: Did you get to know anyone of the 617 crew?
KO: I did but I can’t remember the names now. [laughs] Funnily enough, one of the well known ones that flew with Gibson on the dams, I went into the sergeants mess one day and he was playing cards with a table full of crews there for 617 and he said, can you lend me a pound? So, I lend him the pound, never expecting to get it back again, when I came out of the Air Force about four years after that, I happened to be standing in front of my restaurant in Northampton and who should come in? This chap I’d lent the pound to. So, I caught him and I got me pound back on it [laughs].
DK: [unclear] oh excellent, [laughs], well he did owe it to you.
KO: Yeah, having done the dams raid he was lucky to.
DK: Yeah. So, you can’t remember who that was then now?
KO: I, a flash came into my head, I got an idea whose name, was Monroe, was it?
DK: Les Monroe? Yeah, Les Monroe.
KO: Yeah.
DK: The New Zealander?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, yeah. He owed you a pound [laughs].
KO: Yeah. He just walked in the shop, not knowing I was there.
DK: Yeah.
KO: I just recognized, I said, hey you.
DK: I actually met Les a couple of times when he came over to UK, last few years. So, you’re now on a Mosquito squadron, so what was your actual role then as 627 Squadron, what were you?
KO: We were at 99 percent for marking, for main force.
DK: Right.
KO: And we were the only squadron that did what we did. We were way ahead of everybody else, and we had to dive, we introduced dive bomb marking which was not heard of before 627 Squadron was formed. But they started off the first two or three months joining in with the, flying backwards and forwards to Berlin in those days and then when we moved up with 617 Squadron, we started doing what we did, that was our thing, and that was flying ahead of main force and being there three minutes before the actual time we needed to be there because that was ten minutes between, let me try to explain it a different way, the flares, the target was illuminated by one or two squadrons of Lancasters from our station to drop thousands of luminating shares over the target area and five of us went out separately to the target and stood off until the first markers went down illuminating, lights went down and on the, dead on the spot, they were there ten minutes before the time for bombing and we went in, in that ten minutes under the flares, dive bombed the marker onto the target for about, well, anything from three, two, three hundred feet, from fifteen hundred feet and it was purely up to the pilot because he dropped the bomb, the had a china graph pencil mark on his windscreen and he, that was his only guide he had to drop his markers, and they used to put that according to how they saw it in height and that sort of thing that needed to be very careful and then we would drop off the markers at about two hundred feet, something like that.
DK: Two hundred feet.
KO: Well, we, we flew round Dresden at three or four hundred feet, probably five hundred feet for nearly ten minutes.
DK: Yeah, yeah. So, the illuminators went in first,
KO: Yes.
DK: They illuminated the target area.
KO: Yes.
DK: So you could then see where to drop your
KO: That’s right.
DK: drop your indicators by
KO: Yes.
DK: [unclear] moving on the target.
KO: Yes.
DK: And then the main force came in.
KO: After that, yes.
DK: Yeah. So, how was that controlled then? Was it?
KO: Just on timing.
DK: Literally on timing, so there’s no one there.
KO: No, no, no, no, we had to be there three minutes before the, ten minutes if you like,
DK: Right, yeah.
KO: Thirteen minutes, three minutes we had to get in our track in to go in and do our dive in.
DK: Right.
KO: That was just for error, for coming from, over from Holland down to Dresden, we had that little margin of difference, so at ten to the target, the Lancasters then came in, they had ten minutes to bomb on the markers that we had laid.
DK: So, can, just stepping back one bit, can you remember where your first operation was to then?
KO: Uhm, Bremen.
DK: Bremen. And how many operations did you actually do then?
KO: I, we did twenty-two operations altogether.
DK: Twenty-two.
KO: They were spread over a little bit but, see we only did, we had enough crews that we only did one every five.
DK: Right.
KO. We had thirty crew, thirty crew men on the, for fifteen aircraft and we only ever sent five aircraft out on an operation, so we had, there was, sort of,
DK: It’s quite a long period between flight then,
KO: Yeah, yes.
DK: So, can you remember when the tour started and when it ended, how long it was for, roughly?
KO: The first tour?
DK: Yeah.
KO: I’m having a particular bad day today, I don’t know why it is, but, oh Jesus! [laughs] I’m lost.
DK: Is it, will it be recorded in here anywhere?
KO: Yes, it was about, the middle, the middle of June-July of forty
DK: ’44.
KO: ’44.
DK: Ok, here we go, yeah, so, that’s 627 Squadron
KO: Yes.
DK: At Woodhall Spa.
KO: Yes.
DK: So, on the 25th of July
KO: Yes.
DK: ’44, so that’s all practice
KO: Yes. Our night operations were in red.
DK: Right.
KO: So, we did, only did one in every three.
DK: Ok, that way we’ll, so, that’s all practice so, uhm, cross country, practice.
KO: We practiced at least five times for every operation we did.
DK: Alright. Ok, so we got off ways to see if we got Gladbach, that’s Monchen Gladbach presumably.
KO: So, that was where Gibson got lost,
DK: Right, alright, ok.
KO: So, that was his own fault.
DK: [laughs] We’ll come back to that in a minute. Ok, [unclear]
KO: Yes, I think we did four in one week, which was an exceptional.
DK: Right.
KO: My first op was a day run to L’Isle-de-Adam, a bomb dump north of Paris. We had a fairly leisurely time as you can see.
DK: I see there is an awful lot of practice between the actual raids, isn’t it?
KO: Yeah, it was about five, one in five. Really, what brought that about was we had to have the aircraft on for that night, and they had to have a morning test before,
DK: Right.
KO: And we used the test to go and do a bombing run on the sands at
DK: [unclear]
KO: [unclear], yeah.
DK: So, navigation then and timing clearly needs to be very accurate.
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But we didn’t do anything really, we flew, normal thing was that we flew out to Holland and turned from just over the coast of Holland, turned down to the, wherever we were going, from there it was, we had no troubles [unclear], we went more or less our own way, we knew what time we had to be there and that but.
DK: So, I think this is your first operation the 6th of October ’44 to Bremen.
KO: That was the first time when we used our dive bomb technique.
DK: Right, ok.
KO: It was, they didn’t know really what it was gonna be like and they told the CO that he wasn’t to go on that operation.
DK: Oh, alright. So, then you got the Mittelland Canal on the 6th of November ’44.
KO: They were easy.
DK: So, it’s got bolted flares over [unclear]. And then you’ve got, 21st of November the Dortmund-Ems Canal.
KO: Mhm, there were two or three of those.
DK: And then I’ve got here the 13th of December ’44, the Cologne and Emden ships cruisers.
KO: Yes, that was in, that was in the Oslofjord, but they moved them by the time we got up there and it was a wasted trip.
DK: So, this is [unclear] called off by marker one.
KO: Yes, well.
DK: So, it was a
KO: I can, this, as I was saying to my friend today, I’ve worried about that ever since and I cannot understand because I was absolutely dead on track all the way up there, I said the only thing I can excuse myself in is that the pilot was running ten miles an hour, he was on three hundred and twenty instead of three hundred and thirty and he would jump down my throat if I suggested that but I couldn’t find no other reason for being late cause we were dead on course for everything.
DK: Yeah, [unclear] this, that’s [unclear].
KO: That’s, that was stacked down for a purpose. Probably made a mess of it so.
DK: So, then we got 14th of January ’45 and it’s oil refinery at Mersberg. So, that’s and it’s got here two times one thousands, so that’s two one thousand pound bombs.
KO: Yeah.
DK: And the red target indicators. So that’s [unclear] what you’ve dropped and. So, then it’s 2nd of February ’45 Karlsruhe. It says target obscured by cloud. Sky marking only.
KO: Yes.
DK: So then, 2nd of Feb, Dortmund.
KO: Dortmund.
DK: It says one target marked.
KO: I’m doing well, aren’t I? [laughs]
DK: And then, 8th of Feb, Politz-Stettin, oil refinery. Stettin oil refinery, yeah. And then the 13th of Feb ’45, ops Dresden. Marker two. And then backed up, one one thousand pounder, red TI. So, just talking about that then, what actually happened on the Dresden raid? Was..
KO: Well, the, there was a trade wind blowing to start with and normally, starting off from home, we would climb to the operating height, going out and we would take a fix every three minutes and find an average wind which we would calculate to fly us on from there to Dresden. But this MIG wasn’t working particularly well and when we got to the turning point, it was a question of hops and choices to how you carried on from there. So I part guessed well I could [unclear] what I’d got already to choose from and then I realised that the thing that we had installed in the aircraft which I’d never used before, I’d never been instructed on because it was introduced while I was on leave, I thought, well, I’ll give it a go and see if I hadn’t have the charts with me and so, I took him, took him down on that, bearing as it was, there was a line running straight through Dresden that I could put up on the machine, that was terrible cause on a Gee box you had to two stroves running like that, but on this particular case, when I went on to the LORAN, it was like that and right across the thing as you couldn’t tell which was which, you had to take a guess at it and fortunately I guessed right and I didn’t navigate all the way down there. I just kept on one line and then I could, guide him down along this line all the way down to Dresden and then there was a one, there was another line crossing the second line there which went through Dresden and as soon as I kept switching backwards and forwards to that, and when that line came up, I said, right-oh Jock, we’re here now. We were three minutes early and doing the right one turn, another one [unclear] the arrival and then the main force came, we had the, the uhm, the squadrons that were dropping in there, illuminating flares came in at ten to eleven and we were just on the edge of the city, sitting there, waiting for them. We had to put those down and then we went in and dived in and we were just, just about to call out marker two, tally-ho, and number one tally-ho didn’t just in front of us so we had to go round again and
DK: So you, so marker one got his markers in first
KO: He was the flight commander anyway,
DK: Right, ok.
KO: So, couldn’t, he couldn’t
DK: Right. So, your markers then were the second to go.
KO: Yes.
DK: Right.
KO: Btu we were the most accurate.
DK: Right.
KO: On that.
DK: And how low would you’ve been when you dropped the markers?
KO: About three hundred feet.
DK: As low as that.
KO: Well, we were so low, that as we flew away from there, my pilot was looking back to see if he could see where they’d dropped and I had a shout at him because we were just gonna hit the spires of the cathedral, so I had to pull him up on that one. And then we just circled around Dresden for three or four minutes at five hundred feet and then we came home.
DK: And did you see much of the main force bombing then in that five minutes?
KO: They just started to bomb,
DK: Right.
KO: And I think they let a couple of four hundred, four thousand pounders off as we weren’t all that high and we could feel the, [unclear] get out quick now
DK: I just, for the benefit of the tape, I just read what it says here, so, 13th of Feb ’45, you took off at 2000 as, Mosquito F, so your pilot was flying officer Walker and your navigator so it says, ops Dresden, marker two, which you mentioned backed up, so is that meaning you backed up marker one?
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Well, we got in, it was a football stadium
DK: Right.
KO: We got our marker in the football stadium.
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: And the others were in a bunch, nearly [unclear] a hundred yards,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Way but,
DK: So, your second ones down was actually the more accurate and then it’s got one thousand, so you got a thousand-pound bomb and red
KO: They were a thousand-pound flares.
DK: Oh sorry, so you dropped one-thousand-pound red target indicators
KO: Yeah, yeah.
DK: Sorry, yeah, so one thousand red target indicator. And you
KO: And the others all backed up after that.
DK: Yeah. So, you arrived back at 0540?
KO: I know my, my history today to you doesn’t sound very much but on my claim for a commission, my squadron commander and the camp squadron commander both put down that we were the best crews, one of the best crews of the squadron.
DK: Oh!
KO: We did do well, I mean, we felt that we, if we dropped our markers that was bloody well close on it and of course the last operation we did was at Tonsberg oil refinery at the
DK: Right.
KO: The, first up towards Oslo and
DK: So, were all the operations with Walker?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And was he a good pilot?
KO: He was a good pilot and he was good at dropping the bombs too. We were the best on that one as well. But, I know it sounds terrible, our successes and that sort of thing but sometimes they went right and sometimes they didn’t and sometimes if our radar wasn’t working up to scratch, we
DK: So, when you were briefed for Dresden then, it was just an ordinary briefing
KO: Yes.
DK: And an ordinary target.
KO: Yes. When I was allocated onto a new job I’d only been on the squadron about six weeks, two months when I was sent to RAF Wyton 1409 Met Flight
DK: Right.
KO: For a two week crash course on wind reporting then I found myself that we were doing a big operation in south Germany and we had to stop at Manston to refuel and my job then was to decide two hundred miles from the target whether it was gonna be satisfactory for the main force to continue on to attack the target and if I didn’t think it was gonna be satisfactory, my job was to call them out and send them home.
DK: So, you’ve gone out and checked the weather in effect then.
KO: No, that was all we were supposed to be doing,
DK: Yeah.
KO: But fortunately the fog came down and we were, the thing was called off. It was never reinstated again but I think that somebody up a loft had said, well, this is a bloody silly idea in the first place.
DK: That, was that with 1409 Met Flight?
KO: Oh, that was where I was sent for those two-week crash course.
DK: Right, ok. Ok, so you’ve done the training at 1409 Met course.
KO: What there was there of it.
DK: Yeah. So, you, did you get?
KO: I was
DK: Did you get back to Manston then or?
KO: Oh yeah, yes, well we uhm, I think we came in that night, I think we came into, probably into Woodbridge.
DK: Alright. Cause there’s one here you’ve been here the 12th of October ’44, it says from Manston, yeah. You went to Manston the day before. So that idea of going out early and
KO: Cause we used the wing tanks up, you see, we needed all the petrol that we could carry to get there and back so we’d use the wing tanks up going down to Manston until we had to refuel then and while that was being done, we were a little bit early, the fog came down and the whole thing was scrubbed.
DK: Alright. That’s what it’s saying here that you remained at Manston. Yeah. So, just going on here then, 16th of March ’45, Wurzburg, ops to Wurzburg.
KO: Wurzburg.
DK: Yeah, so you’re marker two. So, one thousand [unclear] red target indicator, one one thousand yellow target indicators,
KO: That’s what we carried.
DK: Right. But we carried a red, yellow and a green, as the Germans had a funny act of if the red ones went down they’d light another red one up somewhere away from it, you see, to distract it, so we’d have to go back in again and drop the green beside the red or whatever and
DK: Is this when you’ve got the master bomber’s there then that were telling
KO: Yeah, the master bomber’s up there.
DK: Yeah. So he’s then telling who, the rest of the main force who, which coloured markers to bomb. Has he mentioned you on the same operation that Gibson was lost on
KO: Yeah, yes.
DK: You didn’t know him cause he flew a 627 Mosquito force [unclear], didn’t he?
KO: Yes, yes.
DK: You didn’t meet him there then?
KO: I’ve met him on several occasions but, you know, not sort of personally, we were, [unclear] had social occasion or on one occasion he tried to, he came into our little bar, as you can imagine, we were in Nissen huts and they were all posh in and they came down to our officer’s mess and we, that was an airman’s hut actually, the whole mess, and the kitchen that was all part of it but we had no bar arrangements or that, so we had a builder of one of the boys in the squadron, so he built the bar and built a fire in there for us so we could have an officer’s drinking area. And one night my pilot and three Australians were in there having a drink and the door opened and Gibson appears and nobody sort of moved and he came, don’t you normally stand to attention and when a senior officer comes in? And they looked at each other, said, no, no, no. So, anyway, he created such a fuss, they grabbed hold of him, took him outside, took his trousers off and told him not to come in again. The next morning, there was an officer’s parade which he officiated, went down the line and of course the Australians all six foot something in their dark uniforms and my pilot who was a real dural Scotsman,
DK: This was Walker, was it?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
KO: He was standing at the end of the line and he got him and he put him in the glasshouse for three weeks. So, he didn’t remain very popular with our crowd.
DK: Alright.
KO: So I was flying odd bits with anybody who was needing it, the navigator, flew all that three weeks when he was
DK: Well that, I mean, that meant you had another pilot you had to fly with then that. So you, you weren’t too pleased about that then?
KO: Well, we didn’t [unclear]
DK: Alright, ok. They were just
KO: I might have gone on a night flying test.
DK: Alright, so you didn’t do any operations while he was in [unclear]
KO: No, I mean, I had a very, very nice round of it really, I mean, some of the ops we did, we, yeah, you had to have your head on and I was, I was considered to be one of the better navigators although it didn’t sound like it. You know, you don’t know the circumstances of how things go.
DK: So, what was it like then if you were, you know, you are flying the Mosquito there, you’re over enemy territory, what does it feel like, it’s very dark and you’re being shot at?
KO: Well, we weren’t being shot at, that was just the point you see. Everybody else, the main force went out on allocated circuit. We went out, there was only five of us, we went out and more or less did it the way we thought we would, we didn’t stick to any plan as long as we were there sort of three minutes before the flares went down
DK: Right
KO: Thirteen minutes before the bombers came in. So rise up and up and when cross sort of thing on the machine I said right-oh, Jock, we’re here now and three minutes early, do a right one turn, wind off three minutes and that should bring us on time, that moment in time, the flares started to come down and we turned to going to find the thing and the number one saw it just as, we were just, there’s a story in my book there, he pressed the [unclear] just at the same time my pilot was just going to so we had to go off and go round again. And that happened several times and on one, where we had to bomb Wesel, because the commanders had taken over, they crossed the river there and they were outside of Wesel, we had to mark Wesel and we went, there was five of us, we went in and we had to put our markers on the, uhm, the, what’s, I don’t know what you call it, uhm, on the stone part of the pier sort of thing
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: On the river
DK: Yeah.
KO: And both our pilots [unclear] at the same time, both pressed the button, that cut out transmission then we couldn’t hear anything else. We went in, they went in, and we went in, dropped our markers at the same time and they landed in the same, virtually the same place at the same time so how far we were apart where we dived in there, we couldn’t have been more than twenty feet apart, never saw them and they didn’t see us.
DK: I’m just reading there from your logbook, so, that’s the 23rd of March ’45 and it’s ops to Wesel, army support. And you’ve marked with a thousand-pound red target indicator. So, you both dropped at exactly the same time.
KO: And exactly the same spot.
DK: Onto a pier.
KO: Yeah.
DK: On the river.
KO: Yeah. We didn’t realise what had happened until we got back.
DK: So then just going on here, I’m just reading this out for the recorder here, so, you then got the 10 of April ’45 ops the marshalling yard near Leipzig. So, backed up number two, thousand-pound red target indicator, carrying a thousand-pound yellow target indicator.
KO: Yes.
DK: So that probably would have been your last operation then, would it or?
KO: [unclear] read, read.
DK: Oh, ok.
KO: I know that [laughs] I found out that since that my sister married a family in Northampton, they’re apparently of Jewish extraction and they came down to the grandfather had had property in East Germany,
DK: Oh, right.
KO: And nobody knew where it was or anything and it wasn’t until after the war that they set the wheels rolling and apparently there’s two blocks of very luxury apartments and we’d blown one block up and so they only got reparations for the one, who’d been getting the rent for the other one [unclear] up until that time nobody came to the fore.
DK: Oh, hang on, there’s another op here, so, uhm, so Norway, so 25th of April ’45 Tonsberg, Norway.
KO: Yes, that’s the last one I did.
DK: That’s the last one, yes, so [unclear]. So at that point the war’s ended, how did you feel then?
KO: Well, that was about the first or second op I did from commissioning.
DK: Right. So you were commissioned at this point. Yeah.
KO: But I didn’t, I didn’t bother, we didn’t know what was going to happen to us though, where we were going to go, and what happened, what happened then lot of the Ozzies were sent home and we brought in some new people because there was the Far East war and we were going to take part in that and so we were going out there to mark for 5 Group, was only 5 Group that was going out there and we were the Pathfinder Force for 5 Group but we weren’t going to do our dive bomb marking there, somebody got the bright idea of using H2S and we would fly over the target two thousand feet straight and level for two minutes and drop our markers out. You know, that was a ridiculous idea, we wouldn’t even know where the bloody markers had gone and we would’ve much rather continue what we were doing previously and knowing where it was but.
DK: This would’ve been part of Tiger Force then.
KO: Yes, this was Tiger Force and we were supposed to be leading it.
DK: So, the atomic bomb’s dropped then, how did you feel that you weren’t now having to go out to the Far East?
KO: I was a bit disappointed in some respect because I rather looked forward to the exploratory flight out there really but on the other hand, see, there was a five hundred miles from Okinawa to the landfall in Japan,
DK: Yeah.
KO: And we didn’t have that great deal of overlap of petrol to do that, so we were waiting for Mark 40 Mosquitoes to come, which were pressurized and we were flying at forty thousand feet out, taking the trade wind to blow us there, then we go down and do our marking role for drop our markers whatever to do there and then we were gonna come back at sea level because the trade wind would,
DK: Yeah, yeah.
KO: Well that was what the theory was anyway, that would blow us back, blow us there and blow us back. Which we weren’t particularly thrilled with the idea.
DK: Oh, I can imagine.
KO: As you can imagine, sort of being dropped in the sea in the middle of the Pacific there.
DK: [unclear] Get blown back [laughs].
KO: [laughs] No, some people spark ideas, I don’t know.
DK: So the war’s ended then, what were you
KO: Yeah.
DK: You carried on [unclear]
KO: What happened then was, I was supposed to be leaving the [unclear] and they started sending the Ozzies back then because the war was,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Virtually finished then and they started importing a few other crews to come in, to go on the Okinawa job and [unclear] I was gonna say now, I lost the thread or something.
DK: So, the war’s ended, you’re [unclear] not going.
KO: Yes, so a lot of the new boys that they’d brought in were dispersed amongst other stations and so forth and we were just left to [unclear] we were the only crews that were taken out of the squadron and sent firstly to Feltwell and then, I can never remember the other airfield and then ended up at Marham,
DK: Right.
KO: On a bombing development unit. Now we were supposed to think up different ways of attack for future things, well, that was a waste of time really but that was all we were doing. All the rest of the them, down the squadron as it was left, cause they’d imported a lot of aircrew, and sent the Ozzies back, and they were sent to uhm, 19th Squadron, something like that,
DK: Right.
KO: And within months it was, they were all released from it.
DK: And what happened to yourself, then you, did you leave the RAF at that point?
KO: I was still on bombing development unit.
DK: Right.
KO: We just, from there we just five crews of us there.
DK: Yeah.
KO: And I stayed on till June and I was then pat to hand in me notice so to speak.
DK: So that would have been June 1946.
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, yeah, you’re at Marham. So, you’ve left the Air Force in ’46 then. Yeah. So, what did you after that then?
KO: Well, it’s a bit of a long story really, I wanted to, I wanted to get engaged to one of the WAAFs in the squadron who was a parachute packer.
DK: Right.
KO: And I wanted to get engaged, this was at Christmas time, and I went home that weekend, took a photograph and my father said, no, you’re not marrying that girl. So, I sort of, I [unclear] a little bit, he said, no, you’re not going to marry that girl, if you do, he said, we shall sell the business up, we shall go back to America cause my parents were American born.
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: So, I said very briefly, well, that’s what you want to do, that’s what you left to do. Anyhow, they didn’t go back, the father bought a bungalow outside the town and I left myself thinking that this was the route I was going to take, that he changed his mind about being awkward and he bought two limited companies in Northampton and when I came out to take on the businesses which was a great help to me because I only had one other option which was to stay in the Air Force.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But that wasn’t very good because they really didn’t want anybody else in the, in there but that’s. So where I went and I was in Northampton then for five or six years working on the family business and then we divided up from there into the different companies and so forth.
DK: [unclear] The family business actually involve?
KO: A restaurant and bakeries.
DK: Oh, alright, ok. So, so looking back now, after all these years, several years, how do you feel about your time in the Air Force?
KO: I mean, for good or bad?
DK: Both [laughs]
KO: I thoroughly enjoyed it.
DK: Alright.
KO: No, it was a great experience, I learned a lot really from it, you know, and I wouldn’t have missed a day of my experiences there I mean [unclear] fly in the Air Force, when I came home and joined the local flying club and I was flying several hundred hours [unclear].
DK: So you did eventually get your private pilot’s license, then.
KO: I got my private pilot license, yes.
DK: Yeah. And, one other question I’ve got, did you know anything about the controversy of 627 Squadron moving from Bennett’s 8 Group to
KO: Oh, it was a bit of an argy bargy about that.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But, no, that’s what, what came away and that’s what we accepted.
DK: So, when you initially joined 627, you were part of 8 Group, were you, under Bennett.
KO: Yes. And 6
DK: And then moved to 5 Group under Cochrane.
KO: Yes. And 617 Squadron were on the same station with us.
DK: Right.
KO: So, it was quite a nice association really.
DK: Yeah. And you got on well with 617 Squadron.
KO: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah, yeah.
KO: Was a really good arrangement really.
DK: So, that controversy then, you just accepted you were going to another group.
KO: Well, that was all you could do really.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Hadn’t got a great deal of option [laughs].
DK: Ok. Well, absolutely marvelous.
KO: I’m sorry I’ve been so
DJK: You’ve been absolutely wonderful, brilliant, don’t worry, it’s useful having the logbook here cause we’ve gone through the various
KO: My memory seems to be worse at times than others and
DK: You’ve been absolutely marvelous, no, it’s been good
KO: Good. It’s been absolute rubbish from my point of view.
DK: That’s been good. Right, I’ll turn that off now.
KO: Ok.
DK: Ok, thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ken Oatley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AOatleyK170321, POatleyK1701
Format
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01:03:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Initially too young to enlist at the outbreak of war, Ken Oatley served in the Home Guard until he was able to enlist in October 1940, when after initial training he undertook pilot training. After basic flying training he went onto Canada training on Oxfords. It was whilst there Donald Bennett was forming the Pathfinder Force. Five pilot trainees were taken from each course to retrain as navigators and Ken was selected for transfer. Eventually posted to 627 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa on Mosquito aircraft, Ken flew a total of 22 operations. He describes how 627 Squadron operated within Bomber Command operations, explaining how their role was to arrive and illuminate the designated targets for the following bombers. This included the operation on Dresden in February 1945. At the end of the war, Ken served with the Bomb Development Unit at RAF Marham, before being demobbed in 1946.
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-10
1945-02
1946
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
Germany
Germany--Dresden
England--Lincolnshire
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
106 Squadron
16 OTU
1660 HCU
617 Squadron
627 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
civil defence
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Master Bomber
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
RAF Manston
RAF Marham
RAF Metheringham
RAF Scampton
RAF Sealand
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Woodhall Spa
Stirling
target indicator
Tiger force
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1078/11536/APocklingtonAC171115.1.mp3
e7a0ce808c14a23b8955fb5033e305bc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pocklington, Arthur
Arthur Clive Pocklington
A C Pocklington
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Arthur Pocklington (b. 1923, 1589794 Royal Air Force). He served as a radar mechanic at RAF Dunholme Lodge.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Pocklington, AC
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
IL: Ok. Ian locker. This is the 15th of November 2017. I’m at the home of Clive Pocklington and we’re going to start our interview now. Clive, you were born in, you were born in Hull so tell me a little bit about how you came to, you know your early life and how you came to join the RAF.
AP: Yes. I was born in Hull in 1923. And I was always mad on aircraft as most lads were in those days but my first association wasn’t with the Air Force. My family had always been associated with the Navy. And so I was, I think I was persuaded to apply for the Navy and the Recruiting Centre was in Jamieson Street in the centre of Hull. I would be seventeen or eighteen and I went there and they found that I had a heart problem.
IL: Right.
AP: I’d gone on my bike to that place. About four miles away from home. And surprising how I got on my bike after they’d rejected me. ‘You’ve got this heart problem. We can’t have you.’ I went home. It was about four mile. Went in and who was waiting there but my GP. They’d contacted my GP. Imagine that happening these days. And he, I remember he got me on the settee, took out his stethoscope. No. Nothing. Found no problem whatever. He was an enlightened GP because in those days if you had a sore throat they whipped out your tonsils in no time on the kitchen table. I had always had a sore throat but he would not take my tonsils out. I gargled with alum. Anyway, he went off and that was that. After that what happened? Oh, I was called up for the Home Guard.
IL: Right.
AP: And that was locally. I don’t remember much about the Home Guard. It was nothing like the TV programme believe me. All I remember was going on the rifle range which I rather enjoyed because I was a pretty good shot. And then —
IL: So what were you, so — sorry.
AP: Yes.
IL: Just come back a little bit.
AP: Yeah.
IL: To school days.
AP: Yeah.
IL: So you were at school here.
AP: Oh yes. I was at school. I was at Malet Lambert which was a school in East Hull. And when war broke out in September ’39 I was only fifteen. The school closed. Temporarily but we didn’t know that. But it closed. If you lived in the catchment area you were evacuated to Whitby if you wanted to go. But I lived just outside and so I wasn’t. And so that was my last association with school. I left school when I was late fifteen.
IL: Right.
AP: Never went again. But I did alright.
IL: Ok. So, what, so did you, so were you working at the time? Before you —
AP: I did, yes. My father was in the Water Department and he got me a job in the Hull Corporation Water Department for a few months. I didn’t like that very much and I went into BOCM. That’s British Oil and Cake Mill. In the laboratory.
IL: Right.
AP: You know, doing odd jobs and things. And I was there until I went in the RAF. Anyway, I was in the Home Guard and then I applied to go in the RAF. I went, the Recruitment Centre was in Doncaster. And it was a weekend. We went on the Saturday and we were due to come home on the Sunday.
IL: So, how old were you by that time then? Were you seventeen or eighteen?
AP: Eighteen I’d be.
IL: Right.
AP: I think. Yes. Eighteen. Had the interview. I’ll always remember we went before the board. Very intimidating it was. There were about six, to me high ranking officers. And the one, the chairman I presume he was, he looked at me and he said, ‘What’s seventeen thirty fourths of sixpence?’ I always remember that question. And I knew straight away. ‘That’s thruppence.’
IL: Absolutely. It took a while to think.
AP: Well, I don’t know how I did it but, because I was trembling I think. Anyway, I got in. Yes. Ok. We’ll accept you as a wireless operator air gunner. We had to stay overnight to be, for something happening. Oh, for medicals the next day. Overnight was, we had, we were in this huge hall of about eighty recruits with the beds about five inches away from each other. And there was one candlelight bulb in the, in the top here. And I always remember about two in the morning this poor fella was wandering. I think he’d been to the loo. Well, he must have been. And he couldn’t find his bed. This would be about two in the morning. He was still wandering around at half past three so I hope he still isn’t looking for it [laughs] Looking for his bed. Anyway, to cut a long story short we had a medical the next day and the same thing happened again. ‘You’ve got an enlarged heart. You can’t go aircrew. But if you like you can go on, you know a ground job.’ So, it wasn’t radar in those. It was a radio.
IL: Right.
AP: A radio course. So I accepted that. So I think probably looking back somebody was looking after me. I mean all they had was the stethoscope in those days and obviously it didn’t work too well [laughs]
IL: Yeah.
AP: And so I went on the ground. Ground staff. And went to Bradford, Bradford Technical College. Not far from home so used to come home quite regularly.
IL: So you were called. You were called up straight away. You went straight on.
AP: Yes. Yes. It wasn’t very long. I think they were pretty desperate for radio people. Based in Mannville Terrace in Bradford. I remember the trams going up the hill at night. Rattling away. And we were there about, well a few months and then we had this test. The examination at the end.
IL: So, how did, how did that work then? In terms of were you, you were in the RAF so you were in uniform. Were you based on, were you based at a, did you have a base or were you in digs or —
AP: No. We were in, we slept, we were in empty houses right in the centre of Bradford. There were about six of us in this house. The, we had the mess in the old church hall I believe and the RAF offices were in a little bungalow at the side. We used to do fire watching in there. And I remember I was pretty good in those days with my hands. We used to do. And there were some slips for weekend passes and I got one or two of those [laughs] and I made a very good lino cut of the station stamp. I shouldn’t be saying this but probably —
IL: No. They can’t get you. They can’t get you now.
AP: I would have been a very good prisoner of war because I could make very good stamps and came home a few weekends with that. Anyway, eventually we had the test and I came out fairly high so the top ones were sent on radar and the others were on ordinary radio.
IL: Right. So how did the training — how did, was it classroom based or was it actually —
AP: Yes. It was.
IL: Practical?
AP: Yes. Both.
IL: Right.
AP: Practical and theory. And it was in the technical, in the Technical College at Bradford. Yeah.
IL: Yeah. And they were all RAF people teaching you. They weren’t sort of civilians.
AP: I don’t know whether, no. I think it would have been civilian.
IL: Right.
AP: The teaching. Yes. He was quite good. White I remember his name was. Flight — oh yes RAF he would be. Flight Lieutenant White.
IL: Right.
AP: Came home once and, for the weekend, by train. And we were going home on the Saturday or would it have been the Saturday night? I don’t know. We got as far as Leeds in the train and Bradford is about six miles away from Leeds. And we couldn’t get to Bradford so we decided we would have to find somewhere to kip down for the night. And we found an empty carriage and slept in there. And about half past three in the morning the train was moving. It was the early morning milk train to Skipton. So luckily it stopped not far away from Leeds and we got off and eventually got back and got to Bradford and nothing came of that. Anyway, we passed, passed out fairly high on the radio and was posted to South Kensington, London.
IL: Right.
AP: We lived in luxury flats. I always remember marble bathrooms. It was, they’re still there. I did go in to see this place not long ago.
IL: Right.
AP: Near, near Hyde Park. We used to do PE in Hyde Park. And we used to eat in the, would it be the Victoria and Albert? I think so. I remember there were Ming vases all the way around the —
IL: Yeah. It’s south, well it’s South Kensington, isn’t it?
AP: Yeah. Oh, it was south Kensington all right.
IL: Museum Road in South Kensington is is the V&A and the —
AP: Yeah.
IL: Science museum.
AP: There were no raids while I was there because the Blitz, the earlier Blitzes had finished and the V-2s and 1s hadn’t started. So I don’t remember any raids at all when I was in London. We, I was there for about, oh and I missed out Padgate of course. Before, before I went to Bradford I went to the initial place at Padgate. But, you know, for square bashing.
IL: Oh, basic training.
AP: Yeah. Basic training. We were supposed to be there for ten weeks or eight weeks. Anyway, they cut it down to about five because they were desperate to get the skilled people really. So that should have come before. London I enjoyed very much. Had the test and passed out and was sent to Scampton.
IL: Oh right. How long were you in London? How long? How long? And how many people were there? And what were you, what were you actually doing in London?
AP: We were having lectures and practical work on, on the radar.
IL: Right.
AP: Gee sets, which was [unclear] and H2S hadn’t come into being then, I think. I’ll tell you about those later. And that, we just —
IL: Ok. And how long were you there? But how long did that take you?
AP: Oh. Three months.
IL: Right.
AP: Yes. Three months I think. And then we were, I was posted. Well, I didn’t know where I was going but I ended up in Scampton, and 44 and 619 Squadron. And for the next eighteen months, two years it was simply we used to go out every morning. We all had about five planes to service. Two of us would go together. One would go into the plane to test it. The other one would wait outside with a little van in case anything wanted replacing. Test the Gee and IFF. All those. There was the Gee set, chief one, Monica which was a rear facing radar which would give the bomb, the rear gunner a beeping sound. The faster, the closer the beeps the nearer the fighter was. Well, that didn’t last long because like all radar if it’s transmitting it could be homed in to.
IL: Right.
AP: Like Gee wasn’t. Gee was excellent. It was, gave them the position. It was only a receiver. It didn’t transmit at all.
IL: Right.
AP: So it was quite safe.
IL: Yeah.
AP: H2S which came in very soon was also a bit dicey in my opinion because it sent out, it gave a plan of the ground below.
IL: Right.
AP: But it transmitted and could be homed into.
IL: Yeah.
AP: I used to, occasionally in the morning when we were servicing the navigators would come along just to check things. And I would say, how would I say it? ‘I shouldn’t put this on unless you really need it.’
IL: Yeah.
AP: In my opinion it would have been better to do away with the H2S and use the Gee or there were other ones which we didn’t have and to have a rear facing gun. A gun underneath.
IL: Yeah.
AP: Because they used to come up underneath.
IL: Yeah.
AP: And there was no way of firing down on to them. Anyway, that wasn’t my, nothing to do with me. I just serviced it. We used to — H2S was also very heavy. It had about eight boxes along the side of the left hand side of the fuselage. It had a scanner underneath and it weighed quite a bit and the bomb load had to be reduced because of the equipment they were carrying.
IL: Yeah.
AP: I remember them bombing up. It didn’t bother me at all but I have heard of accidents happening. There were usually about three trolleys. One had a Cookie on. Like a big dustbin, you know. And then some five hundred pounders and then usually some incendiaries depending on how far they were going to go. Lisset, in Yorkshire I gather one did blow up and while they were bombing up. So it could happen. But being eighteen you never bothered about things like that. I used to go up in the morning occasionally. I wasn’t too happy about that though because the first time I went up they used to go on fighter affiliation. They would meet a Spitfire or a Hurricane. Well, the first time I went I didn’t know much. It was the first time I’d flown and we met up with this Spitfire and he did, he did a corkscrew.
IL: Yeah.
AP: Well, you became weightless [laughs] believe me. And I was airsick. Well, I remember staggering down to the elsan which was at the rear of the fuselage just in front of the rear gunner’s turret. And I was doing what I had to do in there and I remember the rear gunner turning around at that time and looked at me and I can still see the look of disgust on his face [laughs] And anyway he didn’t say anything but I don’t think he lived very long. I think, I think that plane was lost that night actually.
IL: Oh gosh.
AP: Anyway, I used to go up occasionally after that but I wasn’t sick any more. I think I knew what to expect.
IL: Do you think this, do you think this was a, an initiation for the, for the new boys coming in?
AP: I think, well, I don’t know. No. I don’t think anything to do with that. I mean, there was no — I mean when you think about these days you have to be strapped in and do that. But we just, there was nowhere to sit even. Well, there was for aircrew but I mean for anybody, anybody else, technicians going up you just sat where you had to and —
IL: Yeah.
AP: Yeah.
IL: So the airborne radar was mainly to give, the H2S was about more accurate bombing. It wasn’t sort of for self-protection really.
AP: Well I don’t, yes it used to work particularly well over coastline.
IL: Yeah.
AP: The reflections from the sea and the coast were totally different. But I mean as I say I think the Gee, Gee gave them a pretty accurate, but it could be jammed of course.
IL: Yeah.
AP: Which, yeah. And then there was IFF which was just a little, it wasn’t very big at all which gave out when they came back whether they were friendly or enemy, you know.
IL: Right.
AP: Identification. Friend or foe. And it had the little, I remember once it had a little explosive device in, in case they came down. It would destroy the crystal —
IL: Yeah.
AP: Which gave them their frequency. And to test it to see if the electric was, we used to undo the, unscrew the plug and put it into your meter and somebody would press the button to see if it was working. Well, once I don’t know if it was me, don’t think it was, didn’t take the plug out in time before the button was pressed. So the thing exploded and destroyed it. But I don’t remember any repercussions on that [laughs] These things happen. Oh, yes. For what I was, when I was going back to London I also, oh I shouldn’t come out with all these admissions. I had a bit of a scam on the, I used to, I wanted to get back to Hull to see my girlfriend. We were in London three months and I came home pretty regularly. I think I only bought one ticket [laughs] because the tickets in those days would last three months. You bought, you know your return ticket. So by various means I didn’t have it stamped [laughs] But I don’t feel guilty about that.
IL: Of course not. Absolutely not.
AP: Anyway, we left. Where am I up to? Oh, up to Scampton. And that was it really.
IL: So when, when were you at Scampton then?
AP: When I was at Scampton. Well, late ’43.
IL: Right.
AP: Yes. Oh, the winters in Lincolnshire believe me.
IL: So that would be just after the Dambusters wouldn’t it?
AP: Yes. It would.
IL: Late ’43.
AP: Yes. Yes. It would be. I remember we, well there would be about — oh, radar. The particular, for some reason majority were Canadians.
IL: Right.
AP: I don’t know why. So would be how many in a Nissen hut? Thirty? Twenty five? Something like that and about two thirds would probably be Canadians. We had one little stove in the centre and winters in Lincolnshire were cold in those days. I think we were issued with two blankets. No sheets. Hadn’t. I didn’t have a sheet for years. And with these two blankets you could arrange to have, well first of all you put your trousers down to get a crease in them. Slept on those. And with two blankets by some you could get five layers beneath and about six on top by surreptitious folding if you know what I mean. And then you put your greatcoat on the top. And it was alright. You’d be, just about cope. I don’t remember ever changing the blankets but they must have done [laughs]
IL: Once in a while. Yes.
AP: Well, yes it certainly was. And I was in Strubby and [pause] no, sorry. Strubby. Dunholme Lodge. And then I went to Strubby. 44 Squadron moved somewhere else and I went with 619. Just don’t know. Where am I up to? [laughs]
IL: You’re just moving to Strubby. But when you, how, so what was a sort of typical? You know you said in the mornings you would, you know pair up and go off.
AP: Yes. Mornings we would pair up and go around and service the kites. And probably about four or five each. Afternoons you’d be in the radar section repairing sets.
IL: Right.
AP: So it was because the all the kites. Oh, they’d all be all ok’d for flying you see and the afternoon was spent repairing things. Evenings in the NAAFI. Fish and chips. No. Egg and chips. No fish. We used to go around to the farms in Lincolnshire and the farmers were very good at selling you eggs which were worth their weight in gold in those days. Yes. So that was it really. We never, we didn’t get to know the aircrew very much because the fitters and the riggers they had their own aircraft.
IL: Right.
AP: And they got to know their aircrew very well and, but we didn’t. We were on different aircraft all the time really so I didn’t get to know any aircrew personally.
IL: Right.
AP: The fitters and the riggers, I don’t know whether it was true. They said when they, when they were coming back from a raid and they were circling around ready to land they would know by the sound which was their aircraft. They were all on, all identical engines. Merlins.
IL: Yeah.
AP: But they were so involved with their plane they would know, ‘That’s ours. It’s coming in now.’
IL: Right.
AP: Whether that’s true or not I’m not sure.
IL: So did you, were you aware of things like losses? And, you know, how did that sort of —
AP: Well —
IL: You know, what was the mood like in the station?
AP: To tell you the honest I don’t think we were. Because within a day if there were two or three — every night every time they went out, well every, most nights there would be one, two or three missing.
IL: Yeah.
AP: You didn’t know whether they’d been shot down or whether they’d been killed or escaped. But within, well a day that plane was replaced.
IL: Right.
AP: So there was usually a full, you know, eighteen planes there all the time.
IL: Right.
AP: Even though three were missing that night. They’d come. New ones would be there.
IL: Right. Were they sort of flown in or were they —
AP: They were flown in. Yes. Yes.
IL: Right.
AP: Yes. I don’t know. The ATA would do that presumably. Perhaps Amy Johnson. You never know.
IL: Absolutely. Well, not 1943 sadly.
AP: Amy Johnson. She was, she was an ATA pilot.
IL: She was.
AP: Yeah.
IL: But I think she was lost in 1941.
AP: Oh.
IL: That’s why I was saying.
AP: Oh, over the Thames wasn’t she?
IL: Yeah. I think that was.
AP: Yeah. Yeah.
IL: I think it was ‘41 that Amy Johnson was lost.
AP: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. Oh, it was. You’re right. Yes.
IL: So, ’43, not ’43 sadly.
AP: Yeah.
IL: So that’s something I’ve found quite fascinating really. You know. That you would have thought that in terms of targeting aircraft it would have been the centres of production or the centres of storage would have been a very, you know it would have been very productive for, you know German bombing. Rather than —
AP: Yeah. Well, yes I suppose so but I think there was the, they were spread out.
IL: Right.
AP: They used to manufacture bits here and bits there and then send them to be assembled I suppose. There didn’t seem to be any shortage of planes.
IL: No.
AP: No. They were, they were replaced very quickly.
IL: So, what about social life? You know, you said, you know you spent your evenings in the NAAFI. Did you, did you become close to your, you know the other people you were with and —
AP: Yes.
IL: Did you, you know —
AP: Oh yes. I did. Yes. Yes.
IL: Presumably visits to the pubs or —
AP: I wasn’t a drinker in those days.
IL: Right.
AP: No. It was mostly, mostly NAAFIs and various canteens. No. I I didn’t drink ‘til I was well in my 30s.
IL: Right.
AP: Made up for it a bit now [laughs] Yes. And that was it really. And then the, the war. Oh, I didn’t see any action really. We weren’t involved in any raids. Quite, I had a good war really.
IL: Right. You weren’t, there were no raids on any of the bases you were at.
AP: None whatever.
IL: Right.
AP: No. No. I in the later in the war I did see V-1s. A couple over Lincolnshire. They didn’t have the range. They wouldn’t be land launched. They did fit them to planes and —
IL: Right.
AP: Release them and I remember I was cycling across somewhere or other and I saw this V-1 pass right over. That would be somewhere near Lincoln.
IL: Right.
AP: So where it went to I’ve no idea. I’ve seen V-2s. Not V-2s but the trails for when the Germans were sending out the V-2s later in the war. You know, the rockets.
IL: Yeah.
AP: From the, from the low countries even in Lincolnshire you could see the vertical vapour trails.
IL: Gosh.
AP: About eight, ten, seven, six all at the same time going vertically up. Presumably landing in the London area.
IL: Right.
AP: Yeah. Yes. That was quite fascinating really. And then of course the war, the European war finished and we were put on embarkation leave to go to Okinawa.
IL: Right.
AP: On Tiger Force it was called. And, but very shortly afterwards of course the bomb was dropped. The Japanese capitulated and that was cancelled. So we were put on embarkation leave to go to India.
IL: Right.
AP: I didn’t want to go to India but of course I had to. I’m pleased I did because I loved it when I got there. We went on the [pause] Oh, I went to Blackpool for [pause] waiting for the ships, you know.
IL: Right.
AP: The transport to go. We were in Blackpool about three weeks. A funny thing happened. Before we went, on the way to Blackpool we had to go through Sheffield to get to Blackpool. And it was August, I think. September. And we had to walk from one railway station to the other one to get to Blackpool and there were about six of us walking along. And it was a very very hot day so we took our forage caps off. And luckily or unluckily enough there was a car passing with two MPs in. they got out and came across to us. Took our names, numbers and everything else and where we were going and off they went. Well, the next day we were in Blackpool and we had an assembly in the Tower Ballroom. This huge hall it seemed to be. And they called out our names. There’d be about five hundred people. Air Force people. Well, you ought to have heard the noise. Off we went to the front and we were given a rollicking there. And we’d got, we were told we had to come back the next morning and clean the ballroom floor with a toothbrush. So, we spent about two hours the next morning messing around. They didn’t know what to do with us in other words. But I always remember that. And the time came we had to go. We went to Liverpool to get on the, went on the Samaria. The boat. And went three week journey. It takes three weeks now it takes what? Twelve hours? Which was fascinating. I mean, I’d never been abroad before. Went through Biscay. Calm as a millpond. Saw Gibraltar. The first place I’d seen abroad. Through the Med. Through the Suez. Bitter Lake. Flying fish. I wonder if there still are flying fish. And got to Bombay. Oh, on the boat we slept on a hammock. We had a mess deck it was called. About twenty chaps and a hammock. Morning came. You packed up your hammock and one of you had to go and bring back the food. You slept there and ate there and everything else. Crowded. Commissioned types, they had about two thirds of the ship. Non-commissioned had about one. I remember going where I shouldn’t have gone once and looked into this lounge. First class lounge. There they were all sitting in settees and lounges. And there was a fellow on the piano and he was singing, ‘Willow, did willow, did Willow,’[laughs] I thought well of course class distinction in those days.
IL: Absolutely.
AP: Absolutely awful. But anyway. And we used to, through the Red Sea it was pretty hot and once we, well occasionally we’d go on the deck and sleep on deck. But you had to be very careful to be up by about half past four because they, they swilled the decks down at half past four. And these sailors, they liked nothing better than swilling you out with those. So we did get caught out there more than once. Got to Bombay. Went to the transit camp. Worli it was called. And within five days I was smitten. I think if you go to, if you went to India in those days it wasn’t just the food. I think the air would kill you as well. And I was in hospital for a fortnight with, you know. I don’t know what. Diarrhoea.
IL: Yeah.
AP: And all the rest of it. I remember the drugs we had to take. Sulfonamide would it be? Something.
IL: Yes. Sulfonamide.
AP: And it came in a long strip about two yards long. Taking those. But I slept in sheets which was quite good. Recovered from that. And I was in India fifteen months after that and I never had another, anything else at all. But being delayed in Bombay for a fortnight I lost all the, my mates I’d made on the boats.
IL: Yeah.
AP: I was completely alone. I’ve never been so miserable in my life. Anyway, I got the train eventually when I’d recovered and went up to Kanpur which is a Maintenance Unit.
IL: Right.
AP: RAF Kanpur. In the United Provinces I think it is. Not far from Delhi.
IL: Right.
AP: And we were, worked in the electroplating shop because there was no radar. Radar had finished then. The electroplating shop. They still used to electroplate bearings for engines which were no longer needed or anything else. We didn’t do any use.
IL: Yes.
AP: Walked about. But we used to get, well the camp they used to go into Lucknow or Kanpur and buy cheap tea sets. Metal tea sets. You know. Electric. Cheap electroplated and they would bring them to us and we would electric plate them again. RAF silver. About a quarter of an inch thick we’d put on.
IL: Yeah.
AP: I remember the silver came in great plates. They’d come and they’d say, ‘Would you mind doing this for us?’ So we used to electroplate their teapots and various things. We used to play badminton outside in the, in the heat. Nobody told you the sun was dangerous. I enjoyed that. We had a swimming pool there which was great. And on the whole — oh, and we went up to, I’ve been to the hills. We went three times because the heat in, in oh dear me the heat in the pre-monsoon was a hundred and twenty. You just didn’t go out. You, you stayed under the punkah. The fan. You closed the shutters and you just stayed there. And you got prickly heat. My friend the other year, it was a hot summer here. She went to the doctor with a bit of a rash and he said, ‘Oh, you’ve got prickly heat.’ Well, she hadn’t got prickly heat because if you get prickly you know about it. Your pores all go septic and everything. It’s not nice at all. But we went up to the hills three times. I’ve been to Darjeeling, Ranikhet and Nainital. The most interesting one was the, when we went up to, well Darjeeling on the little railway which goes, you know. Very good. But it was just pre the end of 194 — let me get this right. Six. It was just pre-Independence. And we, to get to Darjeeling we had to leave Kanpur go to Calcutta overnight on the train. The air conditioning was a huge block of ice in the middle of the compartment which was about two feet cubed when you set off and by the time you got to Calcutta it shrunk to about [unclear] cube size [laughs] We changed trains and went up to Darjeeling. Had a holiday there. But when we came back through Calcutta to go back to the base all troops going through Calcutta had to stay. It didn’t matter whether you were Navy, Air Force or whatever. You were, stay there because there were riots going on in Calcutta. And they were riots. Believe me. Every night we used to go out on the on the lorries to patrol the streets. You’d walk around the block and when you came, in a circle sort of thing and there would be bodies stabbed in the streets. In the gutters. We had a Lee, I had a Lee Enfield rifle. First World War vintage and I always remember I was standing at this street corner and this Indian came up to me. He looked about a hundred but he was probably forty and a big long beard. He said, ‘You have not got bullets for that gun.’ I said, I said, ‘I have.’ But we hadn’t [laughs] I wouldn’t have shot them anyway because I really liked the Indian people. They were great. And that was my, well they weren’t, they weren’t antagonistic to us. It was the Muslims and the Hindus of course in those days. They were at each other’s throats. And it really was. There were millions slaughtered in that time.
IL: Oh absolutely. So were you, were you demobbed in India? Or did you —
AP: No. No.
IL: Brought back from.
AP: I came back in 194 — left in the late 1946. I came back on the Corfu ship and we weren’t in hammocks this time. We had little bunks. But going through the Biscay it must have been the biggest storm they’d had in years. I remember the waves looked to me tremendous but I wasn’t sick at all. But I think ninety nine percent couldn’t even keep down water. Anyway, eventually got back to Southampton and went to [pause] where was it? Somewhere near London. An old Air Force base. And it was the, 1947 was the coldest winter that’s ever been. So coming from the heat of India even in the winter to that was pretty rough. It really was cold. In fact where I live now when I was demobbed Bilton is a village three miles out of Hull. It was cut off for three days. The snow was so deep there was nothing got through at all. The snow was six foot deep. And I was demobbed, Finningley I think, somewhere there I think. I think it was Finningley which is now Robin Hood Airport.
IL: Yeah. Absolutely. Doncaster.
AP: Yeah.
IL: Yeah.
AP: And, and that was the end of my, my war. Which —
IL: So, so how long did it take from coming back from India to be demobbed? Were you still, or did you come straight up to Finningley or —
AP: It was just a matter of weeks.
IL: Right.
AP: Yes. Yeah.
IL: It must have been a frustrating, was it a frustrating time? You know.
AP: How?
IL: Because although obviously you enjoyed India. You know, I think I would find it, I think personally I would find it frustrating that you know, you’d signed up for the duration of the war and then there was almost like another.
AP: Well. Yes.
IL: Eighteen months, two years after.
AP: Yes. But I suppose it was understandable really because having thousands, thousands being put on the employment market there would have been — what would they have done?
IL: True. True.
AP: They had, they had to do it sort of slowly I think.
IL: Yeah.
AP: Yeah. We had a demob number depending on your length of service and your age. And I think mine was 48 and every time this list would come out who were going to be demobbed? You looked to see if you were on it [laughs] And eventually it came up.
IL: Right.
AP: And you went and got your demob suit and all the rest of it and that was it. And then I went back to me, oh I had a, to the BOCM. On the laboratory side. And then I applied for teacher training.
IL: Right.
AP: And in those days there was a one year teacher’s course which was quite short. And I was accepted for that. Went to Lancaster Training College for a year. Although it was only a year we used to work pretty long hours. There were no holidays. We started early in the morning. You finished about ten at night. I can’t say it did much good for me really because teaching is by experience and observing a good teacher.
IL: Yeah.
AP: Rather than being told all about Plato and all the rest of it. It didn’t work that much, but I didn’t like it very much but anyway I passed out and I came to Hull and I taught in Hull for thirty three years.
IL: So what did you teach?
AP: I was a primary school teacher.
IL: Right.
AP: Everything [laughs] Yes. Everything. I started at a place in Hull called Stoneferry which was a really lovely school. I had a little garden at the back. We used to have little plots for the, had three kids on one plot. I was there for ten years. And then I got in those days what was called a graded post and I moved to Thanet School which is not far from where I live now. And I, I had a craft post there because I was pretty good with my hands. And then after twenty years I applied for deputy and I got the deputy of Craven Street School. Well, Williamson Street School. And that closed and we moved to Craven Street School. So I finished my career as deputy head of Craven Street School.
IL: Gosh.
AP: And I left school at fifteen.
IL: That’s pretty, pretty good isn’t it?
AP: I still think you can teach yourself more by yourself than listening to people.
IL: Absolutely. Absolutely.
AP: And that, that’s really my, my story. I’m sorry if its —
IL: No. It’s been fascinating. It’s been fascinating. I’m just going to stop and then we’ll have a little
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Arthur Pocklington
Creator
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Ian Locker
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-15
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APocklingtonAC171115
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:44:25 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
India
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
India--Darjeeling
India--Kanpur (District)
India--Kolkata
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Pocklington grew up in Hull and was hoping to join the RAF as aircrew but failed the medical. He trained as a mechanic servicing the radar equipment on the aircraft. He served at RAF Scampton, RAF Dunholme Lodge and RAF Strubby before being posted overseas. He finished his service at RAF Kanpur, India.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1946
44 Squadron
619 Squadron
civil defence
demobilisation
Gee
ground personnel
H2S
Home Guard
radar
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Scampton
RAF Strubby
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1100/11559/PRobsonJ1601.2.jpg
19e258c9684c390b15fb2ac64bac2a12
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1100/11559/ARobsonJ161121.1.mp3
75e8aed1b35d8fc10b572554cedd1c2d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robson, Jack
J Robson
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Jack Robson (b. 1923, 10589943 Royal Air Force) and his training notebooks. He was a searchlight and radar specialist.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jack Robson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-21
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Robson, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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SC: So that should now be recording. So, I can see that the levels are ok. So, we’re here on the, it’s the 21st of November today.
JR: Is it?
SC: It is.
JR: Oh dear.
SC: It’s the 21st of November. I’m with Jack Robson in your home with your daughter Marion. And I’m the interviewer, Steve Cooke, today. So, thank you first of all for inviting me into your house to hear your story. And you just tell me anything you can about first of all where you grew up and what you did as a —
JR: I’m a local fella.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I was born in born in Bulwell actually.
SC: Right.
JR: And then I lived much of my life in Netherfield. Married a Gedling girl. Lived in Gedling. And we moved here in ’54 and been here every since. And my wife died. How long? Its fourteen years now isn’t it? Coming up.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
JR: St Valentine’s Day. Yes.
SC: Right. Yeah.
JR: Yeah. And I’ve been here sort of ever since.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And where am I?
SC: Did you have an interest in searchlight radar? Or —
JR: No. No. No.
SC: No
JR: I was called up and I —
SC: When? When were you called up?
JR: ’41.
SC: ’41. So quite early in the —
JR: Yeah. Well —
SC: Yeah. Fairly early.
JR: And, and I, I went in the Royal Army Ordnance Corps. I, I finished in the Royal Army Ordnance Corps and I asked to go into radar. It was called radio location then.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And, and we’d heard about it. Of course we knew nothing about it. What’s this? Of course the Germans would know about it so.
SC: Yeah.
JR: They — and I had to listen and I got, I went on a course and I learned radio work. And then radar as it became. Called radar.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And what I, I did several but the one I was particularly on because I worked on it was searchlight control. SLC. Or as they called it, ‘the girlfriend. Elsie.’
SC: Oh right. Yeah.
JR: Elsie. SLC — Searchlight Control. And, and it was a radar that controlled, well, used it for the searchlights.
SC: Yes.
JR: And it was one of these amazing things. You see you’d be following an aeroplane with searchlights, with the radar and for instance it may be low down and when it comes above — I can’t remember now what the figure was but probably fourteen degrees or something like that.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Above. Above level number five. There was, there were five switches on. It got the —
SC: Yeah.
JR: Big switch on the right hand side the searchlight.
SC: Yes.
JR: And he sees the pointer going around. Pointing at them. Also the elevation. It’s above angle and number one, the commander of the —
[knock on door. Recording paused]
JR: Well, we’ll say exposed and like pull the lever like you’d expect.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And invariably the radar’s been following it. Invariably the aeroplane’s in the beam.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Beautiful. Perfect.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And of course they, they used it actually for, one time they needed to expose to sight aeroplanes with searchlights for the gunners to fire. But the guns had radar themselves so they didn’t need it. But the searchlights were used for, used with aeroplanes.
SC: Right.
JR: Fighter aircraft. And so you, you, as I say you exposed on to enemy aircraft and lit them up and then they were attacked by, you hoped by —
SC: Yes.
JR: By fighters. Yeah. I never saw it happen but that’s what it’s supposed to.
SC: Yes. Did you train locally?
JR: No. No. No. Where did I go? I did my basic radar work in, radio work in Glasgow. And then I went to Bury where I learned the radar.
SC: Right.
JR: And —
SC: How long did that take?
JR: Oh. Five months.
SC: Five months.
JR: I think I was five months in Glasgow learning the basics. And then I had two months in Bury doing searchlight control. LW Light Warning. You know. Various radar systems.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But searchlight control and, and as I say I was on searchlights. I, I was in Devon. Clovelly was the troop headquarters of A troop of the 469 Battery of the regiment was raised in searchlights. But, well the reason they were Royal Engineers but they became part of Royal Artillery and they were, they were mostly Territorials.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Territorial Army.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And so the local Territorial battalion or whatever would be. Some of them would be searchlight.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I think number [pause] the local ones, the Sherwood Foresters. I think the Robin Hoods are the 5th. Is it the 5th? The Sherwood Foresters was the, was the Territorial —
SC: Yes.
JR: Battalion of the regiment.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And they were searchlights too.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah. At, where was — I was —
SC: You’d done your training first in Glasgow. And then in Bury.
JR: And then in Bury. Yeah. And then I was posted to — well actually to the 2nd ack ack Workshops at Callington in Cornwall.
SC: Right.
JR: And I went down there and straight away I was posted to the 469 Battery which was, the headquarters were at Holsworthy in Devon. And I went with, off to the A Troop. The headquarters was at Clovelly.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Right.
SC: You know.
JR: Just on the coast.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah. And I was at Clovelly but I had sites at, oh God places dotted over.
SC: Yeah.
JR: About a half a dozen sites with A Troop.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I used to look after the radar on there you see. And quite interesting. I —
SC: So what was your day to day life like?
JR: Well —
SC: Operating the —
JR: I would go around and do maintenance on the sets and things like that. Then there was, I remember, I remember — oh right, here’s one. I remember I was having my hair cut.
SC: Right.
JR: One of the lads was cutting my hair.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And of course it’s in daylight and still daylight but getting evenings. They stand to you see.
SC: Yeah.
JR: In other words they, they parade and, and they go through the motions and work the searchlight and all the rest of it ready for any action and apparently something got, went wrong because they found this out at a site and they rang up. I think, I think it was telephone. There was a wireless or there was telephone connections.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And they rang up and I with half my hair done answered the telephone and to-ing and fro-ing with this and sorted what the trouble out. I actually sorted it out over the telephone.
SC: Over the telephone.
JR: Yeah. They, and they, they told me the symptons of what was wrong and I said, ‘Oh. Has the drill sergeant been out today?’ Pause. ‘Yes as a matter of fact’ I said, ‘Did he take the cover off the receiver?’ Pause. Because we’re not supposed to. ‘Yes.’ And this, this thing is, it’s in a steel box and there’s a, well a primary sleeve comes out. You put your hand in —
SC: Yeah.
JR: And you can operate the gate control and the what not on the, in the set.
SC: Yes.
JR: But that’s all you can do.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But you can take the box off and get at it you see.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I said, ‘has the drill sergeant been? And he’s opened it?’ ‘Yeah. Yes.’ Reluctantly it came out. I said, ‘Well, if you look in you’ll find that a plug marked DR will not be in properly.’
SC: Right.
JR: And, and of course the set was a distance away. And he come back and he said, ‘You’re a blooming marvel,’ He said, ‘This thing wasn’t pushed it in. He put it and everything worked perfectly.
SC: Wow.
JR: And they thought I was marvellous.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And it was one of the simplest forms that you could imagine.
SC: Yeah.
JR: You know. But they, but my, my fame — not fame. My —
SC: Yeah.
JR: Soared you know. They thought I was great.
SC: Yes. Your status. Yeah.
JR: Oh yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yes. But I think I was the first to see Window.
SC: Oh right.
JR: I may. I may be kidding myself here.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But we’d heard about it.
SC: Yeah.
JR: We got the name Window.
SC: Yeah.
JR: You know what I’m talking about.
SC: I do. The chaff. I’m just going to put that down like that.
JR: Yes. That’s what they called it. Yes.
SC: Yes.
JR: Well, we’d heard about it and I was stationed at the time. I was stationed in Norfolk.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I’ll tell you where. I was stationed with, funnily enough I was with the 469 Battery in, in Devon.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And they were raised in East Ham. And in Norfolk I was with the 47 Battery. 470 Battery. Raised in West Ham. And it contained practically the whole of West Ham football team.
SC: Wow.
JR: Oh they were football mad. Oh. And oh yes it was. They called me out. I was, I was sleeping actually. They woke me up. They were working and they said, ‘We’ve got — something’s daft.’ And I went and had a look at it and the radar was just one mass of [unclear] You know.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Just a green. I said, ‘You know what this is don’t you? You’ve trained it. You’re all —’ ‘What is it?’ ‘It’s Window.’ And I think it was the first occasion that the Germans used it.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I think probably I was the first person to see it.
SC: Wow.
JR: And that was in Norfolk actually. Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And it was Window. And they went into the action the, how you deal with Window and all the rest of it.
SC: And how do you deal with it?
JR: Well, you can’t actually because the radar is just picking up all these little bits.
SC: All the, yeah
JR: You just can’t. You, there are various things one can do. I mean, for instance the original jamming what they did is they picked up the radar signals and they broadcast on the same frequency from a set. The same frequency as the previous, so instead of getting the beep on your radar set you got just a mass of —
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
JR: But we worked out a system. Pressed the switch and JL it was. Anti-jamming. And actually you got a better signal. You only got that one signal.
SC: Right.
JR: From, from that that particular aeroplane.
SC: Wow.
JR: So, it didn’t work really did it? Really.
SC: No.
JR: But with Window what can you do with that?
SC: Yeah.
JR: Little bits of metal. Aluminium foil and there were just aeroplanes all over the show.
SC: Yeah. Yes.
JR: And I said, ‘It’s Window. Do you know what you do now?’ ‘Ah,’ but it, I think it was the first time they’d done anything.
SC: They’d seen —
JR: The first time I’d seen. And I think it was probably the first time it was used in this country.
SC: Right.
JR: And I was probably the first to spot it. I don’t know.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I may be kidding myself there.
SC: And that would have been 1941 or 1942.
JR: Oh no. It would be ’43.
SC: ’43.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SC: So how long were you at Clovelly?
JR: Only months. And then I went, I went on a course and when I got back I found my, my company was in Callington but they’d provided these various batteries with people.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I was one. So when I got back I’d been replaced of course. And I got, went to another Battery. 335 Battery at [pause] where was 335 Battery?
SC: Was it still in Devon?
JR: Yeah. But South Molton.
SC: South Molton.
JR: That was it. Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Oh yeah. South Molton. Yeah.
Other: Dad you started as a, as a Home Guard.
JR: Oh, I was a Home Guard for a year before I went in the army. Yeah.
SC: Right. Tell us a little bit about that.
JR: Oh. Well, 1940 I was [pause] no I was seventeen in ‘40, I was seventeen and late May came. And we got all the tools and the Germans ran over us in France. Belgium and France and whatnot. And Holland. And, and Dunkirk happened and all the rest of it. Oh dear. And I’ll tell you this. I don’t know what it’s worth but we were in dire trouble. We’d been beaten. Kicked out of the continent. Dunkirk had happened and all the rest of it. But people still thought we’d win the war.
SC: Yes.
JR: You know. I can’t. There was no [pause] yeah. Yeah.
SC: No question.
JR: No. No. No. It was we’d go on and win the war.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And anyway where was I?
SC: Joining the Home Guard.
JR: Oh yes. The, the, there was all the troubles and what not and Anthony Eden broadcast on the wireless broadcast and he said we’re forming this. Calling it the Local Defence Volunteers.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And he said we want men between the ages of seventeen and sixty to apply at the police stations and join. So I rushed up to the police station and there was a crowd of other people there and the policeman comes in, ‘What’s going on?’ He had no idea of course. So he said ‘Well, I’ll get your names.’ Got a sheet of paper out and got the names. We became the Local Defence Volunteers. Later called the Home Guard. And we were, I think we could be quite be effective. We were obviously, people don’t realise that they’d, we’d be mopped up by a determined enemy. I mean a disciplined force would soon sort us out. But of course you’d delay them.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And in a war delay is dangerous.
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
JR: And so it did matter. But anyway —
SC: That was local was it?
JR: Oh yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah. And I was in that for a year before I went in the army myself then.
SC: And did you train quite regularly?
JR: Oh yes. Yeah. Oh yes. And uniformed and all the rest of it. Yes.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And my first uniform was an armband [laughs]
SC: Yeah.
JR: But then we got, we did get uniform then proper.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And armed too. We got armed with American rifles.
SC: Right.
JR: .303. Three hundred. .300 rifles.
SC: Right.
JR: Similar to British P-14s. They were called P-17s and they fired, as I say .300 rimless cartridges. Yeah. So we had those and we [pause] well we’d have delayed the enemy. That said we would have done the job. And then I got called into the army.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I was, I finished up in the Ordnance Corps and trained to be a radar man. Which we didn’t call it radar then. It was radio location.
SC: Yes.
JR: But [pause] and, and I particularly did searchlight control and light warning in [pause] where did we do that? That was in Bury.
SC: Yeah.
JR: In Lancashire.
JR: And I was, I was posted to the second. The 2nd Anti-aircraft Workshop at Callington in Cornwall. And when I got there I was only there hours and I was packed off to be the resident at the 469 Battery. ‘A’ troop headquarters at Clovelly.
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
JR: And I was there for some while. Some months. Saw a bit of action there and whatnot. But —
SC: Tell me about the action that you saw there.
JR: Well, one of the actions was there was a dinghy. Aircraft in the, from an aircraft in the sea off Hartland and they, they had the searchlight on it all through the night.
SC: Right.
JR: Until they could be rescued. And, and I know that the searchlight at Hartland it wasn’t on the point exactly but it was near there. The searchlight. And it, it lit up the dingy until they could be rescued.
SC: Right.
JR: And I know that they ran out of [pause] you know searchlights is it’s an arc lamp.
SC: It’s an arc. Yeah.
JR: And I think, is it the negative pole burns down?
SC: Yes. One of them does.
JR: You have to wind it up.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And actually there’s an automatic one. It, you know feeds up.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But they ran out of carbons to burn them out. So they had to fetch a fresh lot, you know.
SC: A fresh lot of —
JR: Yeah.
SC: Rush them out to them because they were using them up.
JR: Yeah.
SC: Keeping these people illuminated.
SC: Because they would last about two hours I read somewhere.
JR: I don’t know how long they’d last now.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But, but they get used up.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And they had to send some out especially, you know. There was no emergency because they said, ‘We’re running out of carbons, send some more,’ you know.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And someone would go out. No bother. But because they were using them up because they were illuminating these people.
SC: All night.
JR: All night. Yeah.
SC: Did they rescue them?
JR: Oh they rescued them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: It took a while.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And, yeah I remember that happening. Yeah.
SC: And was it in Clovelly that you, you did the, you were telling me earlier about the lights of the day and the verey lights. And you —
JR: Oh yes. That’s everywhere you see.
SC: You did that everywhere.
JR: What happens is they — every day a searchlight detachment. A dispatch rider would come by motorbike and give you the slip of paper which was the letters of the day and each hour they changed. The combination changes you know. Red, yellow, blue, green, white.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And no black [laughs]
SC: No.
JR: And these these these would be fired out of the aeroplane.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And they’d let you know they wanted help with the homing beam. And your homing beam was your, your searchlight was always pointing at the — you’d leave it so that the searchlight is pointing at some special place.
SC: Yeah.
JR: As I say when I was at Devon it was Chivenor which was the local aerodrome.
SC: Aerodrome.
JR: Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And what happens is the man on the lug arm which was, as you know a number four. He [pause] three times like that.
SC: Make it go up and down. Yeah.
JR: Then lays it not, not horizontal but close to horizontal.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Pointing for then, you know after a half minute does it again.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And of course the others are doing it so the aircraft knows he’s got to go there.
SC: Yeah.
JR: There would be help there. You know.
SC: Yes.
JR: But and I remember the first thousand bomber raid and apparently they sent everything over and stuff coming back had got no navigation equipment and all the rest of it.
SC: Yeah.
JR: There was no end of appeals for homing beams.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And the RAF always insisted that pilots who have asked for help must go around and thank the —
SC: The searchlight crew.
JR: Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And the searchlight crews obviously entertained them. Gave them tea.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And of course as one was, as one crew was, aircrew was going out another one was coming in because there were so many that had been helped and they ran out of tea, I know. But the army rose to the occasion and there was extra tea ration.
SC: More tea.
JR: And all was well but that’s how things were you know.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And of course because the RAF insisted every aeroplane that is, that is helped the crew goes around and thanks.
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
JR: The result that the men on the ground know that this is vital.
SC: Yes.
JR: And we used to be in competition. If, see the letters of the day come down. Then the sentry on duty at night he hammers on the hut which wakes the Number 5 been designated and he’s still dressed. He’s asleep in bed.
SC: But dressed.
JR: But dressed.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And number 9. The sentry then hammers on the hut, wakes him up and rushes off to the Lister or whatever it is. The Lister generator.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And Swings it. Gets it going.
SC: Yeah.
JR: It’s a hundred yards away. And number 5 gets out. Whoever’s been designated number 5 gets up and he’s dressed. And he goes out to the Lister’s working, switches on and it’s always pointing. Left pointing at the —
SC: At the aerodrome.
JR: And so it gives the homing beam.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And the aeroplane said thank you very much and off he goes, you see.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And it works.
SC: It works.
JR: Oh yeah. Yeah. And of course it works because the crew come around. They say, ‘Thank you ever so —'
SC: Yeah.
JR: ‘You were a great help.’
SC: Yeah.
JR: And —
SC: I’m sure that saved many lives.
JR: Oh yeah. I’m sure it did.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I’m sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because apparently the thousand bomber raids were, I won’t say we were particularly but going out in to the Atlantic having flown over Britain you know, didn’t know where they were.
SC: Really.
JR: Because Britain was black.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I mean everywhere. People won’t realise this but there was black out and —
SC: It really meant completely black.
JR: It was dark. Oh God. You could get lost.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Oh you could.
Other: Did you fetch them back out of the Atlantic then?
JR: Beg your pardon?
Other: Did you fetch them back from —
JR: Yeah. Yeah. Apparently they were going, flying over Britain, ‘Come on back here. This is the way.’ And it worked. Simple system but it worked.
SC: Yeah. Simple but it worked.
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
SC: So how many were there in a searchlight — do you call it a team or a battery? Or a —
JR: It’s a detachment.
SC: A detachment.
JR: And the detachment, a searchlight detachment is usually twelve men. It varies. And of course everybody could do everybody’s job.
SC: Yeah.
JR: You know.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But they have a normal operation. They, they had the specified job.
SC: Yeah.
JR: So number was the detachment commander. What’s number two? God. Two and three. Four. What’s number four? Number four’s on the lug arm —
SC: Right.
JR: This is on the left of the searchlight.
SC: Yeah.
JR: See, I met two kinds of searchlight. The ninety centimetre and the hundred and fifty. And the hundred and fifty was mounted on. And was usually mobile.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Funny story about that [pause] I was — the searchlight it’s, you know it’s got to move up and down like that.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And it turns around. Now, there is a device on it. It’s a piece that’s loose. It’s fastened but loosely to the chassis. And it comes up and it fits. Fits around the pin on the searchlight. Put a pin in. And it holds the searchlight. I forgot to put it in and climbed on top of the searchlight and it tilted. Push it in, it’s a hell of a height. And I, and I hung on to the radar aerials. The radio aerials.
SC: Yeah.
JR: The jagis and hung on and she tipped up completely. And I found myself hanging there and on the end about eighteen inches off the ground and I just dropped off.
SC: Right. Just dropped down.
JR: But it’s quite a height. It’s — but when it swung over I was alright because I was hanging on. But I never did that mistake again.
SC: Yeah. No.
JR: Make sure you’ve —
SC: You’ve put the pin in.
JR: The pin in. Yeah. Yeah. And —
SC: So did you have a specialist job in that team? What number were you?
JR: I wasn’t in it. No.
SC: No. You were —
JR: I was just the radar mechanic.
SC: You were the radar mechanic.
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Right.
JR: And I had —
SC: Yeah.
JR: I was with the, usually in the back with the troop headquarters.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I went out to them.
SC: Oh you went to lots of different ones.
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I’m trying to think of things that, that happened there. Yes. I remember as I say once we got trouble. As I was having my hair cut. I remember I was having my hair cut. I got half way through it and I’d got to go on the telephone. A the field telephone it was.
Other: I think you’ve already had that story.
JR: Have I told it? Oh God. I get like that.
SC: That’s, that’s when you thought you were a superstar.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Because you got that. You knew how to fix it.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. It worked very well that did.
SC: Yeah.
JR: My reputation soared.
SC: Yes.
Other: Dad. Dad. You know you went to Glasgow. You were telling me a bit of a story about the landladies there.
JR: Landladies?
Other: Yeah. And how you got kicked out of a, out of a boarding house because some others would pay more money.
JR: Oh yeah. Yeah. That was it. We were in civvy digs in Glasgow. Me and another. Actually a Nottingham fellow.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Excuse me.
SC: Do you remember whereabouts in Glasgow?
JR: Yeah. Because many years later we went on holiday in Scotland and we were on a bus trip and we went down and I said, ‘We’re on Great Western Road.’ And we came down. I said, ‘I lived there. In that,’ and I pointed at the window of the room that I was in.
SC: Yeah. And what road was that?
JR: We were coming down Great Western Road.
SC: Great Western Road.
JR: And the street we were on was Rupert Street and we were number 5 so it was at the end. Of course all apartments you know.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I said, ‘There’s my window. My bedroom window,’ as we went by.
SC: And then what happened? You got —
JR: Oh yeah.
SC: You were in civvy.
JR: Well what happened is that we used to go [pause] we were, were as I say in civvy digs and we’d got training at [pause] actually it was in the Electrical Trades Institute where were going to lectures. But we were being trained and we used, we used to go back. Me and Ken. He was a Nottingham lad. Came from off Derby Road. He [pause] he and I used to go back to our digs for a mid-day meal.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Very good it was. They were good digs they were. But when we were having them there was also a couple of sergeants came and had their meal as well. And our landlady found that these sergeants were in digs with a friend of hers which is why she had them for the mid-day meal.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And the sergeants would give the landlady a few shillings out of their own pocket. Apart from what the army paid.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And of course we didn’t. And she thought she’d rather have these sergeants. So, I don’t know what happened but, but we were hustled out and, and in trouble for it. I don’t know why. But we were in trouble for it.
SC: Right.
JR: Oh no. It didn’t matter much. I mean nothing, nothing untoward but —
SC: Yeah.
JR: But we went into, well compared with them they were terrible digs actually but it just shows you how it can be.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But you survive.
SC: And what kind of training did you do in Glasgow?
JR: Well, we did the basic. It was the basic. Teaching people. First of all they had to teach some arithmetic and stuff like that. And mathematics.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And there was, and then there was electrical stuff. All manner of electrical stuff.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But it was basically electrical stuff and you had civilian lecturers and what not. And then we went to an army school and I went to one in Bury. In Lowercroft Camp, Bury and we learned the radar there.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I did searchlight control and light warning.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And with the result that when I was posted from there I went to a search, to an ack ack company that dealt with searchlights.
SC: Yeah.
JR: So I was on searchlights.
SC: Yes.
JR: And I was [pause] I was with the 469 Battery and then I went. I went to Leicester on a course. When I got back I found I’d been transferred to the 335 Battery which was near South Molton.
SC: Yeah.
JR: In Devon.
SC: Yeah.
JR: The same regiment actually. And then I went on, went on another course and back to Bury and had a course there. And found out I’d been transferred from the 2nd ack ack company at Cannington to one at Norwich.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And when I went there I was posted out to a site at East Walton in Norfolk. On the King’s Estate in Sandringham.
SC: Oh right. Yeah.
JR: And it, well. Sorry. No, that’s not. No. No. And that was a troop headquarters again and one of my sites that I had was on the King’s Estate.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Sandringham.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I looked after searchlights there, you see. For a while. And that was interesting because the site I was on was actually American. American equipment, Sperry.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Quite different. And all the instructions were in French.
SC: Right. Why would it be in French?
JR: Because it had been ordered by the Americans err by the French from America.
SC: From America.
JR: But of course it had been intercepted when France fell.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And, and we took it on, you see.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But as I say everything, what was it, the petrol was l’essence. You know.
SC: Yeah.
JR: When you had to put petrol in and all the rest of it. But —
SC: Petrol in the generator. Yeah.
JR: Yeah. When it worked.
SC: Yeah.
Other: Is that where you lived in a stable?
JR: No. No. No. We lived in a Nissen hut.
Other: But you did live in a place where there was —
JR: Well, yes. I was at Chepstow. In this, on the racecourse there.
SC: Right.
JR: Used to run around the racecourse and beat any horse [laughs] Yeah.
SC: So you did proper army fatigues.
JR: Oh yeah. Yeah.
SC: And training.
JR: Really fit.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah.
SC: Yeah. And that was at Chepstow and you were actually in more or less stable.
JR: Oh. In the stables.
SC: In the stables.
JR: Billeted in the stables. It was interesting because the stables had wooden partitions when we started but they finished because we had stoves but we ripped the wooden partitions out to burn them.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah. It was winter. It was cold. But yeah.
SC: And do, do you remember any other incidents with the radar? Because it was a lot of American bases in East Anglia.
JR: Well, as I say I was in East Anglia [pause] And then I, and then I was posted to Hucknall wasn’t I? Yeah.
SC: So how long did you stay around Norwich and in Norfolk?
JR: Oh only months.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I remember going on [pause] I didn’t have the same leave as the, as the Royal Artillery members you see.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And because I, I mean I had to be replaced by another person before I wanted leave.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And so I remember going. Having a weekend leave. Just a weekend. And I got back on Sunday night and I had to walk from King’s Lynn to East Walton where my headquarter — I don’t know. About fifteen miles I think it was.
SC: Gosh.
JR: Something like that. And I remember it so well because something’s going on. I stopped. Somebody, somebody following me.
SC: Right. Yeah.
JR: And when I got to, back to the head, to the troop headquarters where I was stationed it was a local bobby. And he’s followed me. And he said, and I’d been handed over by another and the bobbies were in the background. I didn’t know. I got the, there was somebody there. Someone following. But it was a bobby.
SC: Just checking up on you.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: What am I up to?
SC: Yeah.
JR: At, you know, I think it was about two or something like that in the morning.
SC: Yeah.
JR: What am I up to?
SC: Yeah.
JR: They didn’t interfere but they —
SC: No.
JR: But they were there.
SC: Yes.
JR: You know, you think to yourself my God. Because some of them. I remember at that place there was a local bobby came and told one of them off. He’d been, he’d spotted a wounded pheasant and he was after it. But the local land owner had also known about it and he was, and they came face to face. So he said, ‘What’s your name,’ and all the — and the local bobby came. He said, ‘He’ll be delighted that you’d told him the truth of where you were and all the rest of it, and I’ll go back and report to him. He’d be delighted that you’d done so.’
SC: Yeah.
JR: And he said, ‘Now look. If you’re doing poaching this is how you do it,’ [laughs] and he gave him a lecture in how to poach.
SC: How to poach.
JR: [laughs] The local bobby. Oh dear.
SC: Yeah.
JR: That was at East, I was stationed at East Walton then.
SC: Yeah.
Other: You weren’t always in this country though were you?
JR: Beg your pardon?
Other: You weren’t always in this country were you?
JR: Oh no. No. No. I went to India.
SC: How did that come about?
JR: Well, I said can I serve abroad?
SC: Yeah.
JR: I don’t know how they deal with it but eventually, I was stationed at Hemel Hempstead at the time and eventually I was posted back to my [pause] I was temporarily attached to the 24th or was it the 15th Workshop in Northampton. And then they moved to Hemel Hempstead. I was at Hemel Hempstead. In the workshops there. We were opposite Brocks Fireworks. The little huts where, you know trenches and huts.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Everything was very separate, you know. You were —
SC: Yeah.
JR: If you had an explosion they’d just blow.
SC: One small —
JR: One small place and only one person.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And they were opposite. And they were always banging and there was fireworks going off all the time and they were working with fireworks that we used in the services you know.
SC: Yes.
JR: Things like that. But they were banging and shouting all the time with them. Rather — when we were in Northampton we were next door to a factory that made Sten guns.
SC: Right.
JR: So we’d always hear Sten guns firing all the time.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Oh dear.
SC: So you went from Hemel Hempstead and that’s when you went over to India.
JR: Yeah. Yeah, well I was posted back to my Workshop which was at Arminghall in [pause] next to Norwich and then I found several of us had been posted to Hucknall actually of all places. Hucknall.
SC: Just up the road.
JR: And we were in a unit that were destined for overseas. And we, we got together. Formed a new unit. 469 ABS. Advanced Base Workshops. And we, we were in, in Hucknall for some weeks. You know, messing about. Playing about.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And then we were all loaded on to a train. We finished up at Gourock. On board a ship. And then the next thing we — oh God. Cold. Back up to the Arctic Circle and away in the mid-Atlantic. You know. In a convoy.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And then we sailed. Went to India.
SC: So what route did you take to get to India? You went on a troop ship was it? Or a —
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Yeah. So you went out into the Atlantic.
JR: Yeah.
SC: And then down.
JR: And we went to Gibraltar.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Got in to Gibraltar. I think we took oil on at Gibraltar. And then we went down to Africa, around Africa and over to India.
SC: Oh you went all the way down.
JR: Oh, the Med would be out of the question at that time.
SC: Of course.
JR: Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Although, I think they did clear it finally.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But we and we went, sailed to India. Called in at Bombay. “Welcome to India but mum’s the word.” You know, six foot high letters on the big warehouse. “Welcome to India but mum’s the word.”
SC: “Mum’s the word.” Wow.
JR: Yeah. You know. You remember that.
SC: So you got to Bombay. And then where did you go from there?
JR: We went to a place called [unclear] That was a, I suppose a transit camp of some kind. And that was interesting. Talk about futility. I was, I was given a duty. There were four of us. We were taken by lorry out into a desert. And there was a basha which is, it’s just pillars with a roof. No, no walls. And on it was a, and it was an iron stove. And alongside there was this tower, wooden tower about thirty feet high I should imagine with a ladder. And it was a top and six eight foot square. Like a boxing ring. And you climbed it and you were there and you were a fire guard. But we had no communication. We had, didn’t even have a flag let alone telephone or wireless or anything. And no transport. We were taken out there by a lorry. Dropped. And there was a man cooked food on the stove and then got on his bike and went somewhere. [unclear] And you could see lights in the far distance from some arrangement or other. But there was nothing. And how we got in touch with people I don’t know. It was just one of those futile, futile things.
SC: And what was your job?
JR: Just to look. See there were no fires about.
SC: Right.
JR: Well what was on fire in the desert I don’t know.
SC: Yeah.
JR: We could see tents in the defence. And — [laughs]
SC: Yeah. And how long did you do that for?
JR: That was just a night.
SC: Just a night.
JR: That was.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But we were there before we went to, we went to, Bangalore was our station then. That was nice in Bangalore.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Camped on the polo ground.
SC: Right. Wow. And what did you do there?
JR: Nothing really. It was just, we were just there. It’s the old, old business that sometimes there’s nothing doing but the fact that you’re there.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I always remember a friend of mine was [pause] he was called up and he did his training in the air force and then they kept him on for about an extra six months.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But it was the [pause] was it the Suez Crisis or something? About 1950 or something like that.
SC: The early ‘50s. Yeah.
JR: And he said, he said, ‘We were there doing nothing.’ Like this. I said, ‘You were there.’
SC: Yeah.
JR: Which is better than being at home and all the rest of it. You’re —
SC: Yeah.
JR: You’re mobilised ready.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Whatever may come, you know. But I mean he was there languishing. Doing nothing. What he thought.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But of course he’s, he’s mustered ready.
SC: Yeah.
JR: You know. He’s available.
SC: Yes.
JR: When you’re at home you’re hardly available are you?
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah. But yeah.
SC: So how did you get on with the food in India? In Bangalore.
JR: Oh we had, we had British food mostly.
SC: Right. And did you have, have your own charwallah?
JR: Oh yeah. We — when we were in India there was four of us in a tent. Big tent. Four, four charpoys. Charpoys are beds.
SC: Yeah.
JR: They’re just this wooden frame on wooden legs and rope. Criss cross rope. You know. Diamonds. Criss cross across.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And then some up to form a pillow kind of thing. And four of these in the tent and we were the, on the end line, second from the top and it was a bit of a hill. And I remember the rain came. We’d got to dig trenches. Oh that was hard going. It was hard. Bit of a job. Gave it up, you know. We were lying on the bed. A bit of a rain. And then we were lying on the bed in the afternoon and hearing shouts and curses. Looked out and we were at the top. We were second row down. The end one. And the ground sloped away. And down below there were men working like mad digging trenches because the place was flooded.
SC: Because it was flooded.
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
SC: So they tried to divert the rainwater.
JR: I, and I remember, I tell people and we were in a little tent. Two of us. And we’d got a double charpoy and the top bunk was only about this high. The bottom one down there. You know. Just room.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And both men lying on top of the, with all their kit because the tent was underwater. Well, the water was, when you looked out you see just see nothing but water. No land at all. You see people could, I know it’s only about eighteen inches deep but they’re you know in dips. People could easily get drowned, you know.
SC: Yeah. So this must have been during the monsoon.
JR: Monsoon. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. But — yeah.
SC: Do you remember anything else that happened whilst you were in Bangalore?
JR: Not really. I remember taking part in a, in a cross country run.
SC: Yeah.
JR: About three or four miles. I did quite well in it. We left the Americans standing. They were fat.
SC: Well, that’s [laughs] stayed the same then.
JR: Yeah. But the Nigerians beat us.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Oh God, they could run.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I had great fun.
SC: Yeah. And did you actually do a radar mechanic job whilst you were there?
JR: No.
SC: No.
JR: It’s the old old business. The army has a schedule. A unit has this. And one of them is to have two radar mechanics for this and you make up the numbers. And you find out there’s no equipment like that. There’s no equipment like that in India. The whole of India.
SC: Right.
JR: So what job have you got?
SC: Yeah.
JR: And eventually I found myself running the workshop control.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Because not knowing the job and I I found myself in this job running the workshop. Well, when I say running the workshop I mean the control of work through it.
SC: Yeah. So what did that, what did you do for that?
JR: Well, people would come in. Want this job doing.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And you know, someone, the Royal Engineer’s would have a pump and it’s you know the bearings shot or something like that so we would fix it up with bearings.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And give that back to them. And then I would see, they’d come to me first and, just to do the — and I don’t know. So it gets —
SC: Completed.
JR: Completed properly.
SC: And fixed.
JR: And you’re in control —
SC: Yeah.
JR: Of it you know. You know what’s happening.
SC: Yeah.
[Doorbell. Recording paused]
SC: Anywhere from Bangalore in India or did you stay there?
JR: Well, I went to Madras.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And places, villages, you know between Bangalore and Madras. And then the war ended.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And we found ourselves off to Singapore.
SC: Right.
JR: So I finished up in Singapore.
SC: So this was when the war ended.
JR: Yeah.
SC: Against — in Europe.
JR: Yeah. But then ended some months later against Japan.
SC: Against Japan.
JR: Yeah. And we were, we were preparing for the war like invasion of Malaya.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And we were water-proofing everything to make a landing in Malaya. I presume it was Malaya anyway.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And we did actually make a landing in Malaya. More or less as planned.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I think. And I finished up at Singapore in Malaya. I was there for about a year actually.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I worked out the [pause] I did actually. Yes. Worked out the workshop arrangements and did, did well like that.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah.
SC: And you were there for a year in Singapore.
JR: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Just about a year we were there.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Then I came home. I came home to —
SC: How did you get back home? Also on a ship?
JR: Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: We were, we were on the, sorry we were on the ship called the Andes. The south, it was the Royal Mail Line down to normally between Southampton and South America. But it was a hired trooper you know. We were, we were on the, on the Andes. And she made a splendid trip back from — about sixteen days back from Singapore when we were coming home. Quite quick.
SC: And did you come back through the Mediterranean?
JR: Yeah. Yes.
SC: You did.
JR: By that time —
SC: Through the Suez Canal.
JR: [unclear]
SC: Yeah.
JR: And whatnot. Yeah. Yeah. We came up. I remember the Med. It was a terrible storm. You could see, actually see the ship twisting.
SC: Gosh.
JR: A dreadful storm. And people were sick all over. The new people who had come on at Port Said. RAF. There was a big contingent of RAF joined us at Port Said. They were being sick all over the place. We were accustomed to the motion.
SC: Yeah.
JR: It was dreadful that was. It was terrible storm it was. I mean you could see the ship twisting.
Other: Is that where they, where was it where they turned the ship around?
JR: Oh that was, that was going to India. And I don’t know, we were in the middle of the ocean and it was stifling. And the captain turned the ship around and sailed the other way for half an hour to get some air into the ship.
SC: Wow.
JR: Dreadful it was.
SC: It was a very long route that you took.
JR: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Around the Horn of Africa.
JR: Yeah.
SC: Around the —
JR: Well the Med wasn’t safe.
SC: Safe. Yeah.
JR: But I remember coming home. It was Christmas Eve at, in Aden and the RAF came out in launches and went around the boat singing carols.
SC: Wow.
JR: Aden. And now it’s a free country isn’t it?
SC: Yes.
JR: Yeah.
Other: Have you mentioned Burma?
JR: Eh?
Other: Have you mentioned Burma?
JR: Well I was only there for a short while. That was all. It was visiting. That was all.
SC: Was that before Singapore?
JR: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Right.
JR: But —
SC: So you went from Bangalore.
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
SC: To Burma.
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
SC: And what part of Burma were you?
JR: Oh only, only in the [pause] I’m not sure whether its India actually. Chittagong.
SC: Chittagong.
JR: I’m not sure whether it’s in Burma or not. It’s there anyway.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Yeah. And then you went from Chittagong to —
JR: Back to [pause] back to — no. We weren’t at Bangalore. Back to — near, it was somewhere near — what’s that port? Madras. Near Madras.
SC: Near Madras.
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And went there and my unit split up into what was called SMP Ship’s Maintenance Parties. And there would be parties of two or four people on landing ships and what not.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Going out all over the place.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And funny enough because many years later we were on holiday in Sutton on Sea and a fella comes with a family there and he’s friendly with the people who are in digs next to us. Anyway, and I said to this fella ‘Your friend’s a Scotsman’. He said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘I know him.’ He was a Scotsman. We chatted and he, he, I said, ‘I know. I remember. You came back from a Ship’s Maintenance Party.’ I said, ‘I debriefed you.’
SC: Gosh.
JR: ‘Yes. You did. Yes. Yes. Yes.’ And oh yes. Yes. So we, you know it’s interesting. As I say you meet these people and many years later you recognise them and oh.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I’ve met one, two, three, four, five. I’ve met half a dozen people that I was in that unit with.
SC: Wow.
JR: Strange. A unit of about six hundred men from all over the country and I’ve met about six of them since.
SC: Since. Yeah.
JR: Yeah. In funny places.
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
JR: I was, immediately the first year I was demobbed it would be forty — it would be ’47 and I went to the Isle of Man on a holiday. And it was, I went on the night boat and it was bitterly cold so I went down in the bar to warm up. And the bar was one of these rectangular ones. Came out and around you know.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I sat in a corner here and I looked across and in the identical corner was the old sergeant major. And he said he couldn’t make do in Civvy Street. He was going to join up again.
SC: Really.
JR: Yeah. He said, he said, ‘If I do it quickly,’ he said, ‘They’ll post me back to the old unit.’
SC: Right.
JR: Yeah.
SC: Small world.
JR: Yeah.
Other: Where did you have the POWs working in the workshop dad?
JR: India. We had a lot of Italian prisoners of war.
SC: Italian. Right.
JR: But when [pause] when Italy joined the, joined with us they become not prisoners of war. They became Surrendered Personnel.
SC: Right.
JR: That was a change of name.
SC: Right. I didn’t know that.
JR: From POWs to SPs.
SC: Right.
JR: Surrendered personnel.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And we had a number of them working. Vechi was the one I remember most. And he’d been captured in North Africa and he’d never been home since 1935.
SC: Gosh.
JR: He’d been in the invasion of Malaya err of [pause] what’s the place? Abyssinia.
SC: Abyssinia.
JR: In 1935. And he’d never been home. And this was 1945 would it be? Yeah. It would be ’45. He’d never been home. Never seen his girlfriend for ten years.
SC: Ten years. Gosh.
JR: And, Vechi his name was. I remember him. Spoke very good English. They had a very good canteen they did. Making their own drinks.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Their grappa and —
SC: Yeah.
JR: Oh yeah.
SC: And were there many of these surrendered personnel?
JR: Oh yes. There was quite a crowd of them there and we used them you see. And we were friends with them.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And this Vechi was a particular one. And we [pause] he was a particular friend. And it was so funny that was. We worked in, me and another fellow went from the unit which was on, camped on the polo ground. We went down to the 515 Command Workshop, Indian army and did some work there you see. And there was quite a number of these surrendered personnel in that place. And every now and again you’d suddenly hear someone singing opera. Italian you know.
SC: Wow.
JR: Aye. And beautiful singing too it was. Yeah. They were very good. And yeah. 515 Command Workshop. It was so funny because years later my [pause] I got my station superintendent and his wife were talking and they said something about it. I said, ‘Oh 515 Command Workshop.’ And they both were there you see.
SC: Wow.
JR: They said, ‘Well, I know it. On Brigade Road. Yeah. Yeah. I know it’. Yeah. I said, ‘I worked there for a while. Yeah.’ They were there for quite some time, you know. Met there and married. Yeah. Small world.
SC: It is. Yeah.
JR: I met half a dozen people that I knew in the army and my units I met in Nottingham sometimes.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Not necessarily from Nottingham but met a half a dozen which, you know considering the millions.
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
JR: Is quite good.
SC: How long did it take you to get back home from Singapore?
JR: Sixteen days.
SC: Sixteen days.
JR: It was, it was a record run by the Andes.
SC: Right.
JR: She was a fast ship. Belonged to the Royal Mail Lines down to South America.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And she was fast. And she, she made a very quick passage in sixteen days from Singapore to [pause] to — and I arrived home.
SC: Did you come back to Liverpool or Southampton?
JR: Pardon?
SC: Liverpool or Southampton.
JR: Southampton.
SC: Southampton.
JR: We got, we got, we arrived in Southampton and we stayed on the ship that night. We got off in the morning. Crossed. Crossed the dock and there was a train. And get in the train and we were off up to Farnborough was it? Somewhere like that.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I went into a room. They made me a book that I’d filled in. A book. And they were tearing pages out. Went around it and came out. Went in as a soldier, came out a civilian.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Still in uniform.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Then into a lorry to a clothing depot. Picked me clothes. I was allowed a suit, a raincoat, a hat, a tie, two shirts, two pairs of socks, a pair of shoes. I got them in a cardboard box.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And then I was put on the train. Came home. And I arrived home at quarter to midnight on the 31st of December.
SC: 1947?
JR: ‘6.
SC: ‘6. Yeah.
JR: And I saw the New Year in at home. Just.
SC: Wow. Just. Yeah.
JR: Yeah.
SC: And home was up here.
JR: Netherfield then I think. Yeah.
SC: Netherfield. Yeah.
JR: Yeah.
Other: Dad. Where —
JR: Yeah.
Other: Where did you get your injury?
JR: Oh. That was in Netherfield. Riding a bike in the blackout. You couldn’t see a thing and I ran into, they built brick air raid shelters, surface ones, on the road. And I was riding on this road and just went straight into, on a bike into the side of the wall.
SC: Into the side. Gosh.
JR: This piece of nose hanging out and whatnot.
SC: Gosh. Why did they build it there?
JR: All the doctor did was stick it back. Put some sticking plaster on.
SC: Really.
Other: I was just thinking that was your only war wound.
SC: Yeah.
Other: Cycling into an air raid shelter.
SC: Yeah.
Other: You’d think that they’d be a bit vulnerable stuck in the middle of a road.
SC: Yeah. It doesn’t seem a sensible place to put an air raid shelter but —
JR: Well, where did you put them?
SC: I don’t know. I suppose it’s the most obvious.
JR: Do you know the first air raid where we lived at Netherfield. I only found this out fairly recently. But do you remember where we lived there was that open space wasn’t there?
Other: Well, I can’t —
JR: On the corner of the street, the street there, one Cross street and this open corner.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I’d only learned recently that was full of houses. And they were all blown up in The Great War by, from, with a zeppelin.
SC: Gosh.
JR: Dropping bombs.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And I only learned that quite recently. I always wondered why is that open there?
SC: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
JR: I mean in this as it were you know normal densely —
SC: Yeah.
JR: Housed place.
SC: Yeah.
JR: It used to be houses there but they were blown up.
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
JR: And as I say I only learned that quite recently.
SC: Yeah. Do you, since you left the army do you go to any reunions?
JR: No. I don’t.
SC: Or —
JR: I joined nothing and I’ve done no, no reunions or anything like that.
SC: But you’ve met a number of people over the years that you’ve —
JR: Yes. I’ve said I’ve met a number. I met two on Colliery Road in Nottingham. And they were both in my unit. Two different fellas. And then I was, I was on a trolley bus going down to Trent Bridge and I climbed up, up to the top deck and dropped to the seat and just there was the old armament sergeant major.
SC: Gosh.
JR: Fanny. His name was Adams. Nicknamed Fanny of course.
SC: Of course. Yeah.
JR: And, ‘Fanny. Hello.’ We had a few minutes. You know, swinging the lamp.
SC: Yeah.
JR: As it were. Yeah. Yeah. He lived in West Bridgford and he was going home and I was going to Trent Bridge on the trolley bus. He was going home.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Walked over Trent Bridge into West Bridgford and so ran into him. Yeah.
SC: And what did you do after the war? What job did you —
JR: Oh, I went to the power station. Became, finally became station chemist at the power station.
SC: Gosh. At, at one of the local power stations.
JR: Yeah. Nottingham.
SC: Nottingham.
JR: Yeah. It’s not there.
SC: Right.
JR: It’s been knocked down.
SC: Yeah.
JR: These thirty years back.
SC: I was just thinking of Normanton on Soar as the only power station I could think of. But —
JR: Normanton. That’s, that’s —
SC: That’s way over to —
JR: Ratcliffe.
SC: Ratcliffe. Ratcliffe on Soar. Sorry. Yes.
JR: Well, there was one at Nottingham.
SC: Was there?
JR: Yeah. And next door to the colliery on Colliery Road.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Which of course is now part of the ring road isn’t it?
SC: Right.
JR: Yeah.
SC: And you worked there.
JR: And there is a, is a, it’s called Electricity Road or something like that. I don’t know but —
SC: Yeah.
JR: There was a power station there. Yeah.
SC: Right.
JR: And I was there.
SC: Right. Burning coal. Burning presumably coal. Local coal.
JR: Coal burning. Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: In fact we took, we had the colliery next door. We took all their output apart from twenty five tons of coal a week which used to go down to Coventry, I think. I think some place in Coventry wanted that particular coal.
SC: Really.
JR: It suited them and they had twenty five tons a week.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But we had all the rest.
SC: Yeah.
JR: We had our own coal waggons that were filled in in the colliery. Came around on to our side and sent empty. And back again. And some of them made two or three trips a day.
SC: Yeah.
JR: You know.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And we had all their output. What would it be? About twenty thousand tonnes of coal a week. Something like that.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah. I think it was. Yeah.
SC: And what did you start at the power station as?
JR: Chemist.
SC: As a chemist. You started as a chemist.
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
SC: Yeah. And you stayed working there.
JR: Yeah. I started as assistant chemist. I finished up as the station chemist.
SC: The station chemist.
JR: Yeah.
Other: Dad were you in the power station before the war though?
JR: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Other: So, in actual fact you went —
JR: The station was built in 1925.
Other: Yeah. So you went back to the power station.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yes. The power station was there. You could see it and see it was a power station. In fact at the Festival of Britain they brought out a catalogue for the Festival of Britain 1951.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Anniversary centenary of the [pause] of the London, of the —
Other: Great Exhibition.
JR: Great Exhibition.
SC: The Great Exhibition. Yes.
JR: 1951. And they brought out a book and the chapter on power was headed by a picture of Nottingham Power Station.
SC: Nottingham.
JR: Because it looked like a power station then.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah. Now power stations look as though they are just a box.
SC: Yes.
JR: With a chimney.
SC: Proper chimneys.
JR: Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But that looked like a power station actually.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And so I was there. Yes. Finished up as station chemist.
SC: Yeah. And you retired. Do you remember what year? Or roughly.
JR: Yeah. ’81.
SC: ’81. Yeah.
JR: It was the 31st of May 1981.
SC: So you’ve been retired for —
JR: Yeah.
SC: Thirty.
JR: I’ve got used to it now.
SC: You got used to it.
JR: Well, actually I got used to it by coffee time on the Monday after the Friday. Yeah.
SC: Good for you.
JR: I was made redundant.
SC: Right.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. In effect I was made redundant. I didn’t need to have been but [pause] I would have likely to have been seconded off to somewhere else.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And travelling in the winter. I thought no. So, make me, you know. So they gave me a nice package to finish with and —
SC: Yeah.
JR: And made me redundant.
SC: Yeah.
JR: How old was I? Fifty seven when I retired. So, you know, it’s not bad.
SC: That’s great. Yeah.
JR: And the earlier you retire the longer you live.
SC: Yeah.
JR: So what am I now?
Other: You’re ninety three, Dad.
JR: Ninety three.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I think I’ll last till ninety four.
SC: Yeah. When will that be? When will you be —
JR: February. Yeah. February.
SC: Oh right. Yeah.
Other: When did you see the, from Hucknall the plane flying over and you had a word with your friend? You know. About the [pause] you queried what was going on.
JR: I know what you mean. I had a good friend who lived in Watnall Road in Hucknall and he was, worked for Rolls Royce. Aero engines. You know.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And there used to be an aeroplane. It was a wartime business.
SC: Yeah.
JR: 1941. And I’ve seen it on the internet actually. I don’t know whether you could drag it up and look. 1941. And there used to be a [pause] a Wellington. That’s it. A Wellington. And it used to be going around the, circling around, around well home. Around here. Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Doing big circles.
SC: Yes.
JR: Coming over. And it was funny because it got something, instead of a gun turret at the back it had got some funny contraption and sometimes you could see smoke coming from it. And I saw my friend Bill Allen who as I say was worked for Rolls Royce. He was apprenticed at Rolls Royce in Hucknall and I said to him, rather interesting, I said to him, ‘I’ve seen this funny thing.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Oh that,’ he said, ‘That one is fitted with a Whittle engine.’ That’s the first time I heard the name Whittle.
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
JR: And he said, ‘That’s a Whittle engine,’ he said, ‘It’ll, it’ll revolutionise air transport.’
SC: Gosh.
JR: And of course it was a jet engine stuck on the back of a —
SC: Yeah.
JR: Of a Wellington aeroplane.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And we saw it at the time. you saw it and the propellers weren’t turning so it was just going along by the jet.
SC: Powered by the jet.
JR: Yeah. It was quite interesting.
SC: Because there was the test, there was a test bed and a test centre at Hucknall wasn’t there?
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
SC: For Rolls Royce.
JR: That’s where it was from. Yeah.
SC: So you saw the first jet propelled aeroplane.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. Before they actually built the one that they really tested it in.
SC: Yeah.
JR: They built the special one didn’t they?
SC: Yes.
JR: A Gloster or something like that.
SC: The Gloster Meteor I think it was wasn’t it?
JR: Well yeah. Yeah. But anyway —
SC: Yeah.
JR: We saw this aeroplane. It was a, as I say a —
Other: Wellington.
JR: Wellington.
SC: A Wellington. Yeah.
JR: I was going to say not a Lancaster. A Wellington.
SC: Wellington.
JR: Two engine one.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But we saw them without the engines. Propellers not turning but still going.
SC: It must have seemed very strange.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. With this funny contraption on the back. You could see it. It was shaped.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And that. What’s that? Going like the clappers.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah. That would be 1941 I should imagine. Before I went in the army anyway. Yeah. Still experimenting.
SC: Yeah.
Other: You wouldn’t see it over here though. Would it have be while you were at Bulwell, dad?
JR: No. Netherfield.
Other: Netherfield.
SC: Netherfield.
JR: Yeah. You’d see them about.
SC: Yeah. Well, that’s all been absolutely fascinating. If there’s anything you can, can you think of anything else that —
Other: I was trying to think of some of the stories —
SC: Yeah.
Other: That dad’s told me from time to time.
SC: Yeah.
Other: Just to prompt him.
SC: Yeah. I think we’ve captured a lot. A lot of things.
JR: I remember we knew that flying bombs would come over.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And we knew that there would be rockets too. Long before they came.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Long years before. Well years. Yeah. I remember going — I was stationed at Hemel Hempstead and I went to [pause] we were a party to Anti-Aircraft Command Headquarters in, near Watford. And we were fixing up a radar assembly. Very special. It was based on on the carriage from a GL. That’s a gun laying equipment.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Which had huge yagis and I remember they pulled them up with a rope and they moved up and down like that. And you know turned on —
SC: Yeah.
JR: And they were yagis which are [pause] a yagi. Do you know what a yagi is?
SC: I’ve seen the pictures of them. Yeah.
JR: Yeah, well they’re —
SC: Yeah.
JR: Well they’re, you know cross members.
SC: Yeah. The flight, yeah. Yeah.
JR: And they’re directional aerials.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And they’d got this. What’s this one? And he said, oh a Royal Artillery officer he said they’re going to send rockets up and we were using these to detect them.
SC: Wow. Yeah.
JR: I don’t know how far they went but, and I know that in the field opposite us was — what’s the name of them? The fireworks people.
Other: What? Who you mentioned earlier on?
JR: Yeah.
SC: Was it Brocks that you mentioned?
JR: Not Brocks.
SC: Brocks. The —
Other: I thought it was Brocks.
JR: Oh, was it Brocks? Oh it was a fireworks factory.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And they were firing maroons up into the sky and they were apparently parachutes and there was a bottle of air blowing a whistle. And you got [unclear] as they were dropping.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And apparently, we heard that there was going to be one of these on every building. Fire station, police station and whatnot in the areas where they expected a rocket to fall. Predict a rocket to fall. They would press a button and all these things would go off in that area.
SC: Gosh.
JR: To give you warning. Give you a few minutes warning before the rocket.
SC: Before the rocket arrived.
JR: I don’t know if this worked or not. This is what we were told anyway.
SC: There were all sorts of different ideas.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some of them mad and —
SC: Never heard of that one. Yeah.
JR: Some adopted and some not.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. I don’t think anything was adopted. Just had to sit and take it.
SC: Trying, yeah. Different things.
JR: Yeah. But this was long before they ever came.
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
JR: You know, nothing’s secret.
SC: No. They must have known that —
JR: Oh yeah. They knew something was coming and they were preparing something.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah. I don’t know. You see. You see a little bit of it.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And you’re just a little thing in the middle.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And you see a little bit of it
SC: Yes.
JR: But you see a bit and then you only realise it long afterwards when —
SC: Yeah.
JR: You’ve seen the whole picture.
SC: Yes.
JR: When you’re allowed to see the whole picture you say, ‘Oh. I saw a little bit of it. Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Yeah.
SC: I’ll probably stop the tape now because I think that —
JR: About to run out —
[recording paused]
JR: James took me to, somewhere up north. Nottinghamshire. To a 1940s do. Was it Rufford? Rufford Abbey. Yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: That was it. And there was a fella dressed in a battledress. He said, ‘What do you think?’ He knew I was — I said, ‘Well, that’s wrong there.’ ‘What?’ And he’d got on his pocket here. And he’d got a button on it. I said, ‘There’s no button on that.’ He said, ‘Well, I put it on because —' I said, ‘No. That’s your, that’s your field dressing pocket.
SC: Yeah.
JR: ‘Oh. What’s that?’ I said, ‘Well, the top of the pocket, it’s an open pocket. The top is, has got a zigzag on it and it’s sewn on so it becomes tight. You can slip your field dressing in but you can’t get it out until you break that and —
SC: Yeah.
JR: Pull it out. And that’s your field dressing when you’re wounded. All it is is a big triangular bandage.
SC: Bandage. Yeah.
JR: And, ‘Oh,’ he said, he says, ‘I’ve learned something.’
SC: Yeah.
JR: He thought it was just a pocket and he put a button on it.
SC: Yeah.
JR: But no. It’s a specialised button for, specialised pocket.
SC: Pocket for bandage.
JR: For your field dressing. Yeah. Yours. No one else’s.
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: You did have a lot of your friends killed during the war.
JR: Oh yes. Lots of friends killed.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Goes through them. And I remember going to some years ago now going to a Remembrance service at Mapperley Methodist Church. And the lady there said, ‘Are there any names you want me to remember?’ I said, ‘Where do we start? Have you got a bit of paper?’ ‘Oh. Go on.’ Georgie. Georgie Rose. Pete Robinson. Roy Edge. Gordon Davis. Slick Hayes. Nobby Burton. Nobby [pause] Oh dear. I’m forgetting names now but there’s no end of them.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Georgie Morgan. Albert Swain. You know. Ernie Webster. All these people. And you know the funny thing is I can’t see them as old.
SC: No.
JR: Mauled or white haired old men. I can only see them as young twenty year old lads.
SC: Yeah.
JR: As I knew them when they were killed.
SC: Yeah.
JR: Oh dear. What a waste.
SC: Yes.
JR: What a waste. George. George Rose was my particular pal. And when I used, when I came home and I saw his mother in the, on the village street she’d weep at the sight of me.
SC: Yeah.
JR: I’m not being funny there.
SC: Yeah. No.
JR: But she saw me and it hurt. George. Her only boy. Oh dear. And he was my great pal was George. And who was the first one on the street to be killed? Dennis Swain. He was the first one. He was killed in 1940. And then there was a great stream of them. Jackie Baldwin. Grace Girdleston’s brother. What was his name? Girdlestone. Billy Steele. Wilf Underhill, Jackie Baldwin. Oh dear. You know, these were your pals.
SC: Yeah.
JR: That you played with and what not. They were your pals and they got killed. No end of them. Gordon Davis. George Rose. Pete Robinson. Roy Edge. He was a nice lad. Little Joe. Never knew his name. He was always little Joe.
SC: He was little Joe, yeah.
JR: He was a little fella but he was a splendid chap. A Scotsman. He carried a, what do we call it? A chanter. It was a, it was a pipe off a —
SC: A pipe from the bagpipe. A chanter.
JR: A bit. You play it. yeah.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And you know —
SC: Yes.
JR: You get a sound. You know —
SC: Yeah.
JR: It was alright. It was fun. But he had that. I remember little Joe. As I say, I never knew his name but just little Joe.
SC: Yeah.
JR: And a nice fella he was. Killed.
SC: And this were mainly people you served with in the army. Yeah.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. Oh dear. Little Joe.
SC: Yeah.
JR: As I say I remember them as young lads rather than as they would be old men if they’d have lived.
SC: Yes. Of course.
JR: I wonder what they’d be like. Crotchety old men like me I suppose.
Other: They might not be crotchety. Who says you are? [laughs]
JR: Oh dear. Oh dear.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Robson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Steve Cooke
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARobsonJ161121, PRobsonJ1601
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:26:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Jack spent a year in the Local Defence Volunteers before he was called up in 1941. He joined the Royal Army Ordnance Corps and became a radar mechanic. He trained in Glasgow on radio for five months and a further two months in Bury on Searchlight Control (SLC), named “Elsie”, Light Warning (LW) and on various radar systems.
Jack was posted to the Second Anti-Aircraft Workshop at Callington and then the 469 Searchlight Battery ‘A’ Troop headquarters at Clovelly. Jack also went to 335 Battery at South Molton. Describes a homing beam system to guide aircraft back to the airfield noting that many pilots came to thank the searchlight crew after the first thousand bomber raid. A searchlight detachment normally comprised 12 men with specific roles, but each could do the other’s job. The searchlights were 90cm or 150cm and the latter were normally mounted and mobile.
Jack was also stationed with the 470 Battery in Norfolk where he believes he was one of the first to see Window’s effect on radar. He was posted to East Walton and one site was on the Sandringham estate.
Jack was then stationed at Hemel Hepmstead, was posted back to Arminghall and subsequently Hucknall. He became part of a new unit, 469 Advanced Base Workshops, and went to India and Singapore. His return home was on the record breaking run on the Andes and was demobilised in 1947.
Jack then worked as a power station chemist in Nottingham. He recalls seeing the first jet propelled engine in 1941 in Hucknall where there was a test centre.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Burma
Great Britain
India
Singapore
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
civil defence
home front
Home Guard
radar
RAF Hucknall
searchlight
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1111/11601/ASaundersJ170609.1.mp3
9eb6de7875d7e6d31dad307ae215e888
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Simon, Francis William
Frank Simon
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. An oral history interview with Jillian Saunders about her father, Francis William Simon (b. 1917, 2211910 Royal Air Force), his log book and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 153 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jillian Saunders and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, some items are available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Simon, FW
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Right. I’m just going to pop that there but just ignore it. So, today it’s Friday the 9th of June. The day after the election 2017. And this is Annie Moody for the International Bomber Command Centre. I’m with Jill Saunders today and we’re at Jill’s home at [ buzz ] Whiston, in Rotherham. And Jill’s going to talk to me about her mum and dad and their experiences during the bomber war. But then we’ll also come on and talk a little bit about Jill’s experiences since with regards 153 Squadron and also with regards to research into a specific plane. So I’m going to start off, if that’s ok Jill just to ask you a little bit about what you know and what you can remember about your mum and dad’s childhood. Perhaps we’ll start with your dad first. How old would he, can, can you remember what year he was born?
JS: He was born, he’d have been, he’ll be a hundred in, next month.
AM: Ok.
JS: So he was born in 1917.
AM: Right. Ok. So just towards the end of the First World War then.
JS: Yes. Yeah.
AM: Where was he born?
JS: He was born in Salford. His mother died when he was twelve. And his father died about eighteen months later.
AM: Right.
JS: Of a heart, of, well no. His mother died, she’d had an operation for, to have her tonsils out and they left a swab in and she got septicaemia and she died. Which he never got over. And his father I’m not supposed to know it but he was found hanging in the outside loo about eighteen months later.
AM: Right.
JS: So my father was actually brought up by his much older sister, Margaret who he idolised. She was his mum virtually.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And he lived with her until after the war. Until he got married.
AM: Did he have brothers and sisters?
JS: No. No. No, he didn’t.
AM: No. So did Margaret.
JS: Well he had his sister. Margaret was his sister who brought him up.
AM: Of course.
JS: Yeah.
AM: But you said she was considerably older than him.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That’s alright.
AM: I’m thinking aunt rather than sister there.
JS: Her son, Les died last year, in fact. He was eighty. He was my cousin obviously and he thought the world of his Uncle Frank and Auntie Peggy. And told me once how, I think it would be in November ’44 he’d be about ten or eleven, something like that. He went to school one day. They were preparing for the Christmas concert and they needed some gold paint for something so the teacher said, ‘Anybody got any gold paint?’ So he said, ‘I’ve got some at home, sir.’ ‘Go home and get it then.’ And when he got home his mum, that’s my dad’s sister Margaret was there making tea and toast for a full seven aircrew who were all sitting around on the living room floor. So, young Les walked in and sort of wow. And they made a fuss of him and he had some tea and toast. And it was the naughtiest thing Les ever did in his life. He didn’t go back to school. They took him to Bellevue for the afternoon.
AM: The zoo.
JS: Yeah. And funfare as it was in those days. And he thought that was great fun. And you know they all made much of him and he remembered my dad and all his crew until the day he died which was last year.
AM: Yeah. It just shows you doesn’t it? So did your dad go to school in Salford?
JS: Dad went to school in Salford. Yes. He was Salford born and bred. Proud to be a Salfordian. And started work. He got an apprenticeship as a fitter.
AM: So, did he leave school at fourteen or —
JS: I don’t know what age he would be.
AM: No. Because it was usually the fourteen for school certificate.
JS: Something like that. He was bright though. Totally wasted. And he was a brilliant engineer. And I think he served his time at Reynold’s. Reynold Chain. That was in Trafford Park, I think in those days. In fact, he worked at the time with Harold Goodwin the actor who was in a lot of war films including, ‘Bridge over the River Kwai.” Little man. He was in quite a lot of war films. And every time one of these films came on TV my dad would go off. ‘There he is the little so and so.’ He was a conshy. He wouldn’t go in the war.
AM: Ok.
JS: But he made all these films afterwards which really wound my father up.
AM: I can imagine.
JS: So, yeah. So he, as I say he served his time as a fitter. In his latter years he was such a good engineer his nickname was Two Thou Frank because everything had to be done to two thousandth of an inch or less. He was just meticulous with everything. The paperwork. You know. He drove me mad with my homework. You know. I had to underline my answers and it had to be neat. He was just that sort of guy really.
AM: So what, so if he started work and apprenticeship.
JS: Yeah.
AM: As a fitter.
JS: Yeah.
AM: What year would that be then? ‘Ish?
JS: I don’t know.
AM: Or am I, obviously pre-war.
JS: It’s pre-war. Yeah. And I know he was a Volunteer Reserve.
AM: Right. So, so this is when?
JS: Because I’ve got his little VR badge. And I think he moved onto AV Roe’s working there and was classed as Reserved Occupation.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, he was actually older and later joining the fray.
AM: Right.
JS: Than most his contemporaries —
AM: So he actually worked at AV Roe as an, as and engine, a fitter.
JS: Which is where, where he met my mum.
AM: An engineer. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. And he finally got his call up papers and kept for years his one way ticket. His rail ticket. Which —
AM: Yeah.
JS: I threw it out of course. He called it his one way ticket. So, yeah. So then he, he trained for the, they wanted him, they were short of engineers in the RAF and it was the obvious place for him to go really. He trained at St Athan as most of them did. Then he, I’ve got his logbook there. He went through various places but ended up in 166 Squadron at Kirmington.
AM: Ok.
JS: And then in October ’44 he’d crewed up with six Australians at Kirmington.
AM: Right.
JS: Formed a crew, and they were sent down to Scampton to form 153 Squadron with a number of other crews.
AM: Did he tell you anything about the crewing up process? And how they, how that particular —
JS: Yeah. He didn’t, he didn’t but the two guys in his crew that I spoke to and that I met in 2006 did in that they were all just more or less shut in to a room and said form yourselves into a crew. Now, I don’t know whether my dad picked them or they picked him but he ended up in an all Australian crew apart from himself.
AM: I think that was what was in my mind. How did he end up with six Australians then?
JS: Whether the six of them had got together and we need an engineer he’s the only one left. I have no idea. I don’t know who would. Whether the skipper picked them all or who knows.
AM: We’ll never know.
JS: No. No.
AM: But from there they would have gone on to —
JS: So they started ops, I think late October ’44.
AM: They would have gone to Heavy Conversion Unit.
JS: They did that before. He did that before.
AM: Ok. So then the crew.
JS: If you, if you can stop that I’ll go and get his logbook and —
AM: We’ll have a look at that afterwards.
JS: Yeah. Alright.
AM: Oh, well hang on. So what I’ve got here in my hand is a copy of Jill’s dad’s logbook. Jill’s got the actual logbook. And once they’d crewed up and were actually ready to start operations they moved from 166 Squadron to 153 Squadron. Jill, have you any idea why? Why did they move squadrons?
JS: They were just for, as far as I’m aware they were just actually forming a new squadron, 153.
AM: Right.
JS: And I, I don’t know that it was only 166 that was sent there or whether there was others sent there as well to make up the squadron. I could find that out for you. I only need a phone call to Bill Thomas and he would tell me.
AM: Yeah. No. It’s just interesting.
JS: Yeah.
AM: To wonder. Because obviously I’m looking. I’m looking at [pause] I saw the training and the familiarisation. The circuits and landings. All the rest of it. The night bomber. Fighter affiliation. Diversion and bullseye. Almost all with Pilot Officer Mettam.
JS: Yeah.
AM: As the pilot. But for some of them, and we’re in Halifaxes at this point as well. So, Pilot Officer Mettam. Was he one of the Australians then that became the —
JS: Yes.
AM: The final crew.
JS: He was his pilot.
AM: Right. Ok.
JS: Right the way through.
AM: Yeah.
[pause]
AM: So what we’re looking at now is that in —
JS: Also had to do dual and solo. The flight engineer had to be able to fly.
AM: Right. Yeah.
JS: Himself.
AM: Yeah.
JS: In case anything happened to the skipper, of course.
AM: So then in September 1944 when the training had finished that was when they moved the following month in October ’44 to 153 Squadron. So he was based —
JS: At Scampton.
AM: At Scampton. And did he, what did he tell you, if anything, did he tell you anything about the operations? Any stories. Any — or just what it was like.
JS: He — no. He only told me about coming back with the full load on. But I subsequently found out a couple of stories from the skipper and tail gunner when I met them. The tail gunner was a real comedian. Apparently, when they all got back and went for their bacon and eggs Ned didn’t. He went straight to the parachute shed to chat the girl’s up who were folding up parachutes. But that was what Ned was like. He said they were coming back, I don’t know whether dad was with them or not at the time, from one op and he said they were on fire. He was in the rear turret and there were sparks and all sorts flying and they were coming down and he could hear them jettisoning fuel, and you know and preparing for a nasty. And he got on his mic and said, ‘Are we baling out, skip?’ And Mettam, in his voice, ‘No. That won’t be necessary,’ And brought it down sweet as a nut. He also, then Mett himself did tell me once they were diverted to Manston. I don’t think it was the one that dad was on because I’m sure he would have told me but he overshot at Manston which is very, not like Mett but the problem being that as he overshot he hit a ploughed field and the furrows instead of going the way he was going went the opposite way. So I said, ‘Well, what happened?’ He said, ‘Well, the nose dug in,’ he said, ‘And it flipped over.’ Completely flipped over from the back end over the front end. I said, ‘What the hell did you do?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘We all got out and scratched our heads, looked at it, laughed and hitched a lift back to Scampton.’
AM: What happened to the plane though upside down in the ploughed field?
JS: That’s right. It wasn’t their problem was it? So, yeah, I mean I did found out a little bit from them two. Dad didn’t speak a great deal apart from he did tell me a few times about the time he came back with a full load on and I think that must have really frightened him. Having to land with a full load that they had been trying to get rid of for a few hours.
AM: Did, did he ever say anything about what he saw as the differences between, because looking at it most of the training was done on Halifaxes and then right towards the end of the training in September they went on to Lancasters.
JS: That’s right.
AM: Did he ever talk about the difference between the two?
JS: No. He only ever spoke about Lancasters.
AM: Right.
JS: He never mentioned Halifaxes at all to me. I think like most of them he was in love with the Lancaster and still are.
AM: And that was the one he did all his operations on.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So. So, I’m looking at the logbook and the first operation was to Essen. And then a couple of Colognes. Nights. A fair mix actually. Mainly, mainly night. Mainly night operations. Cologne. Dortmund. Düren. [unclear] Freiburg. And did he ever say anything about the operations. How he felt about them or —
JS: The only thing he did tell me about was having his bacon and egg and them saying, ‘Flying tonight, sir?’ Which when I watched the “Dambusters” film and having eaten in the mess at Scampton I found it very difficult to actually eat in there. To even go through the doorway. It was just, yeah it sent shivers down my spine.
AM: I think you said, so I’m looking at the operations and we’ve, let me just find the right page. I think in total he did —
JS: I think it was nineteen. I think.
AM: Nineteen.
JS: I think it was nineteen.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I’m trying to find out because they were, they were transferred as a crew down to 582 Pathfinders at Little Staughton in January ’45. Dad was admitted to hospital in Ely in February ’45 and mum did tell me that he, he had done an operation in Pathfinders.
AM: Right.
JS: But there’s no record of it anywhere.
AM: No.
JS: And I think that’s perhaps because he was, didn’t get his logbook filled in and was whipped in to hospital quickly.
AM: Right.
JS: I don’t know.
AM: Because, yeah because on the logbook as you say it shows the last one as number eighteen in January ’45 over the Bay of Biscay. And then you said he was ill.
JS: Yeah.
AM: What, what was, what was wrong? What happened?
JS: He took bad with stomach ulcers and in those days if you had a stomach ulcer they cut you vertically from top to bottom and removed all sorts of things. And he suffered for the rest of his life.
AM: Right.
JS: With duodenal ulcers. I mean today you take a course of antibiotics. I did myself only a few months ago.
AM: How long was he in the hospital? You say he was in the hospital in Ely.
JS: Ely.
AM: Yeah.
JS: In Cambridgeshire. Yeah. Because he was taken from — he was taken from Little Staughton which is Cambridgeshire way isn’t it? And I presume Ely was the biggest hospital.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Looking at the photographs of him just after the war and on honeymoon painfully thin and gaunt. It had obviously, the war and the operation had really taken it out of him.
AM: Well, you know it’s a huge operation.
JS: Yes. Yeah.
AM: And he wasn’t tall to start with. Five foot seven and a half I’ve read on his, on his commencement papers.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, obviously then he was that was it he didn’t fly again.
JS: He was. Yes. He then went into, he was made to, made to go in the Home Guard.
AM: Because he left. He was actually discharged in May ’45. So then he went in the Home Guard. Any stories about that?
JS: No. He just found it all very amusing and like little boys playing with sticks over their shoulders. Just like Dad’s Army, in fact.
AM: And he would be quite a bit older than them.
JS: Yes.
AM: Well, older than the young ones.
JS: Of course.
AM: Obviously then there’s old.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Old ones as well.
JS: Yeah. And I think he was one of the few that had actually seen action.
AM: Yeah. He would have been twenty eight by then. Which was actually quite old for a flyer.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: So, tell me a bit about your mum and then let’s come back to your mum and dad together. Tell me a little bit about your mum’s early background and where she was born.
JS: Mum was born in Kendal in the Lake District. A country girl. She was one of nine in a small house up there. Left school reasonably early. She was born in 1920.
AM: If she was one of nine did she ever describe to you, talk to you about what sort of house they lived in?
JS: Oh, my God. Yeah.
AM: Go on. Tell us about that.
JS: I’ve been in there.
AM: Oh, you have.
JS: I have.
AM: Describe it for me then.
JS: Just an ordinary [pause] well they were all grey stone built.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Got to be in grey stone in Kendal. Just an ordinary semi with three bedrooms and a downstairs toilet. They did have an indoor toilet and a little bit of a bathroom downstairs off the kitchen. But very small and there was five boys and four girls. And they all had crazy senses of humour. She’s often told me about how they were all tops and tails in bed and many a night the boys would sneak in when they had just gone to sleep, crawl under their bed and just lift the bed up. Frightened them to death. They, they were all she had one brother who she came in one day, she ran in from the garden because she could hear her sister screaming. And her brother had a roped down on to the kitchen table with a carving knife dangling on a rope wrapped around the light fitting swinging. Lowering it like a [laughs]
AM: As you do.
JS: Yeah. And those were the sort of things. They had to make their own fun.
AM: Well, yeah.
JS: And they sort of tortured each other.
AM: The television. Sitting in front of the television.
JS: That’s right.
AM: Where was she in the age range? Somewhere in the middle? Top or bottom?
JS: She was right in the middle, I think.
AM: In the middle. Right.
JS: In fact, the youngest of them mum always said our Lenny was born, she was on the change when she had him. He was the first to die in actual fact. My mum was the last one to die. She died three years ago. She was ninety four.
AM: So she left school at fourteen.
JS: Yeah. And as you do in Kendal you go to work at the K Shoe Factory which later became Clarks. And she was there with all the girls doing piecework. She did piecework all her life and quite happy.
AM: Describe for the tape what piecework is.
JS: Piecework is, you get paid for, per item. So the more items you do per day the more money you get. So it had a great impact on her life because her idea of doing something well was doing it as fast as she possibly could. She went to the gym which she did in her fifties and sixties it was, ‘I’ve finished,’ in ten minutes flat because she’d just tear around like a lunatic. Everything she did was at break neck pace because she was used to being on piecework. She later went on, she carried on for the rest of her life as a machinist. And worked for a number of years making nurses uniforms.
AM: It’s just piecework’s not a phrase you would hear now.
JS: No. No.
AM: And of course —
JS: I don’t know what they’d call it now.
AM: When you said she did piecework.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. It was the only thing.
AM: So, so back to she worked at —
JS: Yeah.
AM: The K Factory.
JS: She worked at Ks. And then the war broke out so she would be about nineteen. Nineteen and a bit. They were obviously stopped from making shoes into more useful footwear and she ended up on flying boots for the RAF. And she told me how as the flying boots went along the production line and they all did their little bit to them and all the girls to relieve the boredom and because they felt they had to, no. They wanted to. Slipped little notes in the boots as they went along in front of them. Little slips of paper. You know, “God bless the RAF.” “Good luck.” “Stay safe.” All that sort of thing.
AM: Nowadays it would be have my mobile number.
JS: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So then after a while there she was all her brothers and sisters were doing their bit in various places, she was sent down to Manchester to work in the munitions factory in Trafford Park. And while she —
AM: Did she have a choice of what war work she did?
JS: No. No. She was just —
AM: Quite the opposite. That’s where she was sent.
JS: She got a notice that’s where she was going and that’s where she went. And then once she was sent there of course there was a little bit of room left in the home where she was brought up so her mother, my grandma then had to take in evacuee children. She had two little boys. One didn’t last too long. And then the second one was from the North East. A pale sickly child and of course nice fresh air and good food as far as, well to what he’d been used to his parents came to visit him and didn’t recognise him. So, yeah mum’s now in, I think it was AV Roe she was in. It was, she was making parts for Lancaster bombers and she was doing something with a bit of metal. I don’t know what it was and in came a load of airmen and dad was amongst them. They were obviously all engineers. As part of the training learning how it was all put together and their eyes met over, I don’t know whether it was a lathe or something like that and that was that. they started going out together. And they got engaged. He sent her money to go and get a second hand ring somewhere. He wouldn’t get married until after the war. She used to go home at weekends, I think. Now and again. And her sister, my auntie did tell me that whenever she saw dad by this time was on ops and whenever she got up in the morning and read the newspaper and it said a thousand bomber raid over so and so again last night. Apparently, the colour just drained from her face and she wouldn’t eat her breakfast and couldn’t do anything. And they all left her alone until she got a telegram because dad always sent her a telegram when he, as soon as he got back. After he’d his bacon and eggs I suspect. And as soon as she got the telegram she was alright. But he wouldn’t get married ‘til the war was over. And his war was over when he got [pause] well when he came back of the Home Guard I suppose after he’d been discharged from the RAF.
AM: You were telling me some stories about your mum. So when she’d moved to Trafford and was working at the AV Roe factory obviously she would end up in digs.
JS: Oh yes. That was the only thing she would ever spoke about. I mean she never spoke about the work or the girls or anything. It was just the horrible digs she was put in and there and it was bed bugs and fleas and it was filthy dirty and icy cold. And she couldn’t wait to go home at weekends. She hated it and she was lonely and she was a very timid soul. A very nervous person. You know to be taken from her nice comfortable country existence like that to be sent to a big city to have to do that and put up with all the bombing and everything else. I remember when it was D-Day she said, she said they knew it was brewing and that morning she said all through the night they’d heard aircraft going over. She said it was just a constant drone all night long and they knew that something was, was happening. And that morning the hooter went in the factory, Everybody to the canteen,’ and they all lined up in the canteen and the guy said to them, ‘Let’s just say a prayer for the lads. This is it. This is D-Day,’ and she said they all just you know had a few minutes for the, for the boys.
AM: Sorry that gulp was me sipping water. So then obviously you said he sent this telegram every time he got back.
JS: Every time. Yeah.
AM: From ops. I’m just trying to piece together in my mind so she’s still there working when he was in hospital in Ely as well.
JS: Yes. She must have been.
AM: She must have been, mustn’t she?
JS: She must have been. Yeah.
AM: And then come the end of the war he’s in the Home Guard.
JS: Yes.
AM: Well, not the end. From his discharge which was in May ’45.
JS: Yes. He went into the Home Guard.
AM: He’s in the Home Guard.
JS: In the Manchester area again, I presume. I don’t know for sure but I presume it was in his home town. I think it was in Salford.
AM: And she would still be in Trafford Park or would she have moved back up to Kendal.
JS: I have no idea when she moved back. I’ve no idea.
AM: But obviously they’d got engaged by then so —
JS: It was all go then. Yeah.
AM: So when did they get married? ‘ish?
JS: Well, I was born in ’49 and I think they’d been married two to three years before they had me. 18th of April err 27th of April.
AM: Where did they end up living?
JS: She moved down to Salford to be with him. They moved in a, oh it was an awful house. I can remember it even as a kid. It was four back to backs next door to the school. And when it rained we had buckets everywhere. It was cold. It was damp. The toilet was a hundred yards away in a block with three others to go with the other three houses that were back to back with.
AM: Just explain what back to back, what you mean by back to back.
JS: Well, these were, it was two semis and then attached to them at the back of them was another two semis. So it was a square block of four properties.
AM: And that means that the windows were only on the front because the —
JS: That’s right.
AM: Back wall is the dividing wall.
JS: Two walls.
AM: Between the two properties.
JS: Two walls.
AM: Which is why we call them back to back.
JS: That’s right.
AM: It’s like four in a square as you say, isn’t it?
JS: Yeah. Yeah. And torn up newspaper for loo roll. I can remember my mum always going mad that, ‘Mrs Garforth, next door has been using our toilet again. I can tell.’ [laughs]
AM: So the toilet was at the end of the —
JS: The toilets were along the side. So [pause] let me see. You’ve got the four houses there.
AM: You’ve got your four houses in a square.
JS: Back to back.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And there’s a bit of a garden here and the road there.
AM: Right. So in the front of each house.
JS: And there.
AM: There was a garden but then at the side of them —
JS: No, there wasn’t. No.
AM: No.
JS: The front of that house and this one were on the, on the road.
AM: Oh right. Ok.
JS: Right. This was ours. This one here. And the front door was here.
AM: Right.
JS: So it was on the corner and was that one. And the toilets were there.
AM: Right.
JS: Difficult to explain.
AM: And were there four separate toilets then?
JS: And so we had to go from, yeah.
AM: Ok.
JS: In a row. So we had to run from here.
AM: But you were further away.
JS: The furthest away.
AM: Because you were furthest away house from there really.
JS: Yes. That’s right.
AM: From the toilets.
JS: And that was Mrs Garforth’s. And our toilet was quite handy for her [laughs] And my primary school was here.
AM: Right.
JS: The school yard gate was there.
AM: Right.
JS: So whenever they couldn’t find me as a two year old I was in the school yard playing with the kids. And the teachers knew me and they’d take me in to class with them at two and three years old.
AM: I’m trying to think. 1949. Would rationing still be on?
JS: Yes.
AM: It would, wouldn’t it, then. So no sweets or anything like that.
JS: Oh no. No. No. You were lucky if you had clothes on your back. Times were really hard. Tin bath in front of the fire.
AM: Yeah. Once a week.
JS: By this time my dad was working at the power station. At Agecroft Power Station. And he used to go off on his bike. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of Agecroft Brew, but it’s about one in one. Cycle down there to do his stint at the power station and then have to cycle all the way home and many a time we didn’t see him. I didn’t see him for days on end because he’d go to work and then it was can you do some overtime? So he’d go straight into overtime and then during the overtime there’d be a breakdown so he could be there for forty eight hours. And there was no phones or anything.
AM: No.
JS: He’d go off to work and we really didn’t know when he was coming back.
AM: Did your mum work? Or was your mum at home.
JS: Mum was working full time as a machinist. Yeah.
AM: Oh, you said she worked her whole life [unclear] Yeah.
JS: Yeah. So the next door neighbour was the caretaker of the primary school that I’ve just described and they became great friends. And she was the grandma that I never had was Auntie Nellie. She babysat so that they could both go to work. She was a wise old soul. She virtually brought me up.
AM: So how long did you live in in those houses?
JS: We lived there until I was about seven.
AM: Right.
JS: And then we thought we’d hit the big time because we were granted a council house a couple of miles away. And I mean it was the business, you know. We’d made the big time.
AM: Indoor bathroom. Indoor loo.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Nice big garden. It was in a state and dad set to and he made it lovely. It was his pride and joy. But in those days the rent man came on a Friday or whatever it was. You had to pay him in cash. No pets. You did as you were told else you were out. No benefits. No nothing in those days.
AM: No. Well yeah. Its, I’m just trying to think what year National Health came in. ’50. I can’t think.
JS: I think there was national health but there was no benefits as such.
AM: No.
JS: I mean you were privileged if you got a council house and you made sure you paid your rent. And you had to be, you had to be a good upstanding family with a full time job and able to afford the rent. There was no housing benefit or anything. If you couldn’t afford the rent you couldn’t have a council house. Times are different now.
AM: So then you grew up.
JS: I grew up.
AM: Got married. Moved away.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Your dad carried on working. I think you said your dad died.
JS: He carried on working. He worked hard all his life. Yeah. And then he had a heart attack in ’73. Died in ’73. He was only fifty five. It should never have happened.
AM: So quite young.
JS: Never have happened.
AM: Relatively speaking.
JS: I mean in this day and age they’d have put a stent in and he’d have been alright.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Again. And the care was dreadful. Within ten days his back was covered in bed sores. I didn’t believe him. I thought he was joking. Then he leaned over and I saw his back. It was raw. Absolutely blistered from top to bottom.
AM: It’s just how things have changed. When you do look back at something like that it makes you realise how much things have changed.
JS: I saw him the night before he died and he was fine. He’d watched the Cup Final. Manchester United. He was made up, buzzing. ‘Look at, they’ve moved me up here.’ ‘Well, that shows you’re getting better. Look. Your charts back.’ ‘Yeah. Ok.’ And then I got home and I got a phone call 6 o’clock the next morning, ‘It’s the hospital here.’ I said, ‘Is it my dad?’ ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘Is he dead?’ She said, ‘Yeah. There’s nothing you can do. We’ve told your mum on the phone to get down there as soon as you can and then come here at 9 o’clock for his things.’ Well, by the time we got to my mum’s house she was running up and down the stairs just completely hysterical. They just told her over the phone and she was on her own. And we got there and he was still in his bed with the curtains around. Oh, there’s a bag with his things in. Sign for it. Sign for a post mortem. Come back tomorrow.’ And my husband said, ‘No. You’re not doing a post mortem.’ ‘But we’re — ’ He said, ' No. He’s dead. Peggy, don’t sign.’ I’ve never seen my husband be like that before. It was quite barbaric really. He didn’t deserve it. He worked long and hard all his life. He had a really tough life.
AM: So, tell me a little bit now about you and afterwards and 153 Squadron and and your relationship and what you do.
JS: Yeah. Well, because of dad’s discharge from the RAF Mett, his skipper was his hero and dad was all set for going back to Australia with him after the war. But of course because he was hospitalised and everything he lost touch with them all. And he tried ‘til the day he died to find them all but they were all Australian and there was no internet and phones or anything in those days. And he spent hours in the library but he wasn’t able to come up with anything. And on and off from thereafter I kept having a dabble myself and then the internet struck up and in 2006 I got hold of a guy who was on the internet, down as a representative for 153 squadron. And his phone number was there so I rang him and I said, ‘Is that Bill Thomas?’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘153 Squadron.’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘My dad was with 153 Squadron.’ And he said, ‘Just a minute. What was his name?’ And I told him and he said, ‘That’s right. Came down from Kirmington. 166.’ I said, ‘Yeah, that’s right.’ He said, ‘Yeah. His skipper was Hal Mettam.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Hang on a minute,’ he said, ‘I’ve got Mett’s phone number here. Do you want it?’ Well, I couldn’t believe it. I really couldn’t believe it. I sat on it for two or three hours before I rang him and he, he was quite curt with me when I, when I rang. He was a bit off guard. He was moving house. He was about to eat his dinner and that was that and I put the phone down. Well, he put the phone down. And I thought well at least I’ve spoken to the guy and I set to and I wrote him a letter. Enclosed a few photographs and my contact details and I stuck it in the post. I got home from the work the following night and this Bill Thomas called me again. He said, ‘How did you get on speaking to Mett?’ So I said, ‘Well, it was a bit of a weird conversation really.’ He said, ‘Yeah. He was a bit aloof.’ He said, ‘I’ve got another one for you.’ I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘Another member of his crew.’ I said, ‘Oh, go on then.’ ‘Ned Kennedy, his tail gunner.’ I said, ‘Yeah. That’s right.’ He said, ‘He lives in Scarborough.’ I said, ‘Oh wow.’ And he gave me the phone number. I said, ‘Scarborough?’ He said, ‘Yeah. Scarborough, New South Wales.’ I said, ‘Oh right. Ok.’ So I waited ‘til the early hours of the morning and I thought right I shall ring now, because of the time difference. A little lady answered the phone and she put me on to Ned and he said, ‘Hello.’ I said, ‘Is that Ned Kennedy, 153 Squadron?’ ‘Yes. ‘I said, ‘Do you remember your flight engineer?’ He said, ‘Frank. Yes.’ I said, ‘Well, I’m Frank’s daughter.’ ‘Well, bugger me,’ he said in a broad Australian accent. He said, ‘You sound just like your dad. I can hear him now saying “Want a cup of tea, skip?”’ So, cutting a long story short I got home again the next night and lo and behold there was an email from Mett, the skipper which took me by surprise. Apologising and saying yes he did remember and everything. And, and we kept in touch. And in May ‘07 Mett came to the reunion. I went to the first reunion. And Ned, very sick, in a wheelchair got on a plane and came over from Australia and we all met up at the reunion and there wasn’t a dry house in the house.
AM: Where was it? Where was the reunion?
JS: It was at the Holiday Inn in Lincoln. Prior to that they had them at another hotel in Lincoln and we had it then at that hotel for three or four years and I started to get involved. And now we have it at the Bentley.
AM: So, how did you get involved in doing more?
JS: I got involved, particularly. There was one year we went and one of our vets was taken poorly the day before as happens because they’re all getting elderly and said he couldn’t make it and the staff at the hotel were insisting we paid for his room. And the secretary at the time was, ‘Oh. Ok then. Yes.’ And started to write a cheque. And they were also insisting that in future years all these veterans must be insured in case they couldn’t come. And being the rubber gob that I am stuck my two penneth in and said, ‘No. You are not being paid. You can’t tell me you did not sell that room last night.’ ‘Well um —' I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘There’s no way you’re having money out of us,’ I said, ‘These guys are veterans. They’re OAPs,’ you know, ‘Stop taking the mick,’ I said, ‘And regards insurance you can stick it.’ And they were sort of oooh. And then one or two people said, ‘Good on you, Jill.’ De de de de de de. Bill Thomas, in those days used to write a newsletter three times a year handscript and send it out to people. I said, ‘I’ll type that out for you Bill if you like.’ ‘Oh, will you?’ And it just sort of snowballed from there. I was elected to take over from madam who was saying yes to everything. And I started typing the newsletters for him and adding a little bit and then it got to the stage where I was actually doing them. And then arranging they decided after that particular incident to move hotels for the reunions. And we moved and I took over the bookings of that and then, you know as the vets have sort of either died or not been able to, to keep up Bill Thomas who was the secretary decided we should have an honorary secretary, an honorary treasurer and what have you. The next generation down. So that was how I got the post of an hon sec.
AM: That was you. So do you still have an annual reunion?
JS: Yes. We had it last month.
AM: How many Second World War veterans have you still got?
JS: Well, on the books we’ve got [pause] about half a dozen or so. Maybe more.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But we only had three show up this year. In fact one of them with his family came over from Majorca. He lives in Majorca now and he comes quite often. He’s a case is Jack, er the year before we went to the BBMF and we were having a look around and he got in the Lanc and he was sat in the pilot’s seat. He was a pilot. He’s the only pilot we’ve got left. He sat in the pilot’s seat and as we were walking away he was walking with his two sticks. I said, ‘Did you enjoy that, Jack?’ He said, ‘Aye. But I couldn’t remember where the undercarriage switch was.’ He’s got a wicked sense of humour. A very nice chap. The other one is Taf Owen. He did a Manna drop.
AM: Aneurin.
JS: Hmm?
AM: He’s called Aneurin.
JS: Yeah. We all call him Taf. Yeah. He did Manna drops. He’s our president. And Les Jenkin. Les [pause] Oh God. I forget his surname now.
AM: I’ll find out off you after if they’ve all been interviewed.
JS: Yes. Yes. He has. Les. Oh. my goodness. Well, his daughter’s treasurer anyway.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So —
AM: Tell me a little bit about the research you’ve been doing into a specific Lancaster.
JS: This specific Lancaster.
[recording paused]
AM: Well, tell me. So go on. So tell me about the plane.
JS: Right. Right. As part of my role as hon sec I decided one year a few years ago that we should get a bit more high tech and develop a webpage and a Facebook page. So I started them off and we’ve had all sorts of contacts come in via both. We’ve picked up a lot of new members. Particularly this last year. I think it’s because a lot of people going into their genealogy and stuff now. And things are beginning to tie up. Coincidences are happening. And, you know we had a couple meet up at the reunions whose fathers were, flew together and that sort of thing and it’s been, it’s almost spooky at times. Anyway, sometime last year via our webpage I got an enquiry. I was contacted by a guy in Germany called Roland. ‘I have some pieces of an aircraft. One of your aircraft from 153 Squadron. Would you like them? I found them in the forest.’ And he gave me the number of the aircraft. He’d done a little bit of research himself so, ‘Yes please.’ So arrived a box full of pieces.
AM: And I’m looking at —
JS: Yeah.
AM: Exactly that.
JS: Yeah.
AM: A box full of pieces.
JS: Yeah.
AM: From, blimey.
JS: They smell weird.
AM: I will take a photograph.
JS: Yeah. Well, I’ve got. I did take some photographs. Somebody reckoned that that particular, we thought that was leather but he was thinking it was part of the self-sealing liner for a fuel tank.
AM: Ok.
JS: Anyway, after a bit of research I discovered that this particular aircraft, it went down in March ’45. It was on a raid to Nuremburg with a crew and it was their first operation. And it was fully loaded with a four thousand pounder and fourteen hundred and seventy incendiaries and it was hit by a night fighter. It was virtually vapourised. But this gentleman in Germany has done a lot of research. He’s been and found their graves. He’s sent me all the information he’s got plus photographs of the crash site plus a report from the local mayor about the incident which I’ve had translated. And I’ve managed to find relatives of [pause] how many members of the crew now? I think it’s, well it’s four lots of relatives I think I’ve managed to contact who’ve become members. Yes. There we are. One. Two. Three. Four lots. So, that is still ongoing. We, at our AGM discussed it, wondering what to do with it all and seeing as the pieces are so small first refusal on the pieces has been to relatives or descendants of any of that crew. And the rest we thought we would take the most convenient bits and put them in a little presentation box. A glass fronted thing with a document which I’m trying to pull together of what exactly happened to it and give it to them at the Scampton Heritage Centre to put with the other 153 stuff that they’ve got there. That’s as it is at the moment. I’ve made lots of notes but we’ve not put a document together and we’ve not had a presentation.
AM: And did, did you say your dad had flown in that plane?
JS: Yeah. Yeah. And part of my research shows that my father flew in that, in that particular aircraft on one occasion. I think it, did I say it was October ’44 and it went down in March ’45. There’s also Tom Tobin who you have on your records. It was his, his favourite aircraft. He did about fourteen ops in it before it went down.
AM: But not that one.
JS: I’m in touch, regular contact with his daughter in Australia. A Douglas McCourt also flew in it on March the 2nd. I’m in contact with his son in South Africa. And Doug is ninety five and still going strong. And there is another. You have Peter Baxter’s memoirs on record. His son, Mike Baxter is in our Association because his father was the engineering officer for 153 and he actually flew in it as well. And he says in his memoirs, “We flew in Lancaster W-William. Appropriately numbered with my initials PB642 Peter Baxter.” So yes. It’s quite incredible really tying it all together. We’ve got a couple of photographs of members of the crew. We’re still trying to find more. As I say I’m still pulling it all together.
AM: Those pictures of the graves at the back.
JS: These are pictures of the graves.
AM: Where are the graves?
JS: At —
AM: Durnbach.
JS: Durnbach War Cemetery. And this is where he found the pieces. These are photographs of where he actually found the pieces of the aircraft.
AM: Given that there were that many, I mean you describe it as virtually vapourised.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Given that there were that many incendiaries on them.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: It sort of makes you wonder.
JS: Yeah. Tiny little pieces.
AM: What went in the graves.
JS: According to, according to the mayor in his report he says [pause] where is it? [unclear] Yeah. That, that’s what Tom [pause] Tom Tobin was in it. Flew fourteen ops in it or something. I’m just —
[pause – pages turning]
AM: Yeah. it’s, it, it is absolutely fascinating to look at the, to look at the photographs of where he dug the pieces up from.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It actually looks like wood smell.
JS: It is.
AM: It’s come down in woods.
JS: I’ve got the actual crash site and a map with it plotted on it. As I say, I’ve really got to bring all this together.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That’s my ongoing project at the moment.
AM: Yeah. but although you describe them as quite small pieces, which they are there’s quite a lot of it.
JS: Yeah.
AM: There’s a whole box of it.
JS: Well, there’s two boxes arrived. I mean one box arrived within days. And another one a few weeks later.
AM: How did he know?
JS: I have no idea. I have no idea. I mean most of that information in there in the graves and everything all tallies up and he, there’s a lot of Germans now doing this.
AM: Oh yeah.
JS: With metal detectors.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And then following it up and researching it.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And that’s what he does a s a hobby etcetera. But I found it particular spooky when I opened the box. It was just a cardboard box. It had leaves and mud and twigs and things in it as well. And the smell as I opened the box and as I touched a piece and thinking dad’s flown in that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: We just, we both just stood there and we actually shivered.
AM: A little shiver.
JS: There’s one place. Is it that page?
AM: Your dad could have probably told you.
JS: Yeah.
AM: What they were and where they were from.
JS: Like this one we worked out that this piece we worked out at the AGM that that’s got to be part of the one of the seats because they’re screws rather than rivets. Right. So it would have been screwed into the wood.
AM: So I’m looking at a piece of metal that’s maybe eight inches long.
JS: Yeah. And you see that’s the interior colour paint.
AM: And maybe about, yeah, about three quarters of an inch wide. You can see the green paint on it and the one, two, three, four, five, six screws with the screw heads. And on the other side of the metal where the screws have gone through it, the whatever it was and it looks like some sort of leather seat cover.
JS: That would have been a washer of some sort on the other side with it being screwed you see.
AM: It’s, I will take some photographs of this. It’s fascinating.
JS: As I say we decided in our infinite wisdom that that would be part of a seat.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because it will have been screwed to something wooden which would be a frame for a seat.
AM: Yeah.
JS: As opposed to rivets in, in other bits, you see.
AM: Crikey. So we’re looking at a Lancaster with rivets through it here and I wish I could bring Rosie the riveter in. I’ll tell Jill about Rosie the riveter later.
JS: That would be interesting. You know they’re quite heavy.
AM: It is absolutely fascinating.
JS: Yeah.
AM: To look at and think what, what they are and what they were
JS: We’ve scoured them all to try and find numbers on them but you can, you can feel the different metals. [unclear] probably a bit of shrapnel judging by the weight of that.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s absolutely fascinating looking at all these. I’m going to switch the tape off now and then take some photographs.
JS: When it first arrived —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jill Saunders
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASaundersJ170609
Format
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00:53:45 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Jill Saunders’s father Frank Simon was born in Salford in 1917. He served an apprenticeship as a fitter before joining A.V. Roe. He had joined the RAF volunteer reserve but as he was in a reserved occupation, he was only called up in 1944. He trained at St Athan as a flight engineer and was subsequently posted to 166 Squadron, based at RAF Kirmington, in October 1944. The remainder of his crew were all Australians. They were one of the crews sent to RAF Scampton to form 153 Squadron. Altogether, Frank flew 19 operations before his crew were transferred to the Pathfinders at RAF Little Straughton in January 1945. However, he became ill and was hospitalised in February 1945. It was while working at A.V. Roe that Frank met his future wife, Peggy. She was born in Kendal in 1920 and had worked at a shoe factory before being conscripted to a munitions factory in Manchester. They married after the war. Frank worked at a power station until his death at the age of 55 in 1973. Peggy lived into her 90s.
In about 2006, Jill made contact with the 153 Squadron Association and through it, with two of Frank’s former crew. She became involved in the running of the Association and remains Honorary Secretary.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Manchester
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
final resting place
flight engineer
Home Guard
Lancaster
love and romance
RAF Kirmington
RAF Scampton
RAF St Athan
shot down
training
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wynn, Ian Archer
I A Wynn
Description
An account of the resource
146 Items. Collection concerns Pilot Officer Ian Archer Wynn (1908 - 1943, 146838 Royal Air Force). After training as ground crew he remustered as a flight engineer and flew operations with 100 Squadron. He was killed 25 May 1943 on an operation from RAF Grimsby to Düsseldorf. Collection consists of a diary, a memorial book, an official report on what was his final operation, photographs of his crew, his family and the squadron as well as official correspondence from Air Ministry and British Red Cross, letters of condolence and a large number of letters from Ian Wynn to his wife Kathleen. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Patrick Anthony Wynn and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Ian Archer Wynn is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/126116/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Wynn, IA
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Hut 39.3.C.OTU.
West Camp
Cranwell
[underlined] Friday [/underlined]
My Dearest,
I have received your letter today. I cant [sic] understand why you have not received my note. I wrote you on Monday Last It was posted on Tuesday Morning so you should have had it on Wednesday at the latest. You need not worry about this place getting bombed. Our own pilots cant [sic] find it at night So I am damned [corrected] sure [/corrected] that Gerry cant [sic] find it
If I dont [sic] hear anything from Rex I think I shall go to Wyrley some [corrected] time [/corrected]
[page break]
This month because I dont [sic] want to muck my leave up in August. I am trying to get it postponed till then although there is a great Possibility of the unit being moved at that time though.
I wonder what William wants the boys [sic] full names and ages for. I wonder if he is going to buy them some certificates or something?
Well Darling the light has faded now & I cant [sic] see where I should be writing so Ill [sic] finish this in the morning. Good Night Dearest
[underlined] Saturday [/underlined]
Well last night just as I had finished the last word the [corrected] sirens [/corrected] went. There was a mock invasion on & we had to turn out until 3.30AM & man trenches. Apparently we have to do that for 3 nights Last night we were attacked by Commandos & they soon Captured the Camp,
[page break]
It’s Paratroops [sic] or Homeguard [sic] tonight. [corrected] Probably [/corrected] the latter & the Paras on Sunday.
One night is not as bad but 3 on the run and carrying on with normal work as well is too much. Last night it was 10.o clock when we finished & then had that job.
I dont [sic] know whether other units of the R.A.F. & army working like we are but we are certainly busy.
Well my dear I must close & get this away to the post & get back to work. I have just sneaked up to finish this off
All my love to you dearest for now
Yours Ian
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Ian Wynn to his wife
Description
An account of the resource
Writes of frustration over mail and catches up with family and acquaintances. Mentions mock invasion and attacks by commandos, paratroops and home guard. Talks of life in camp.
Format
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Three page handwritten letter
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
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EWynnIAWynnK[Date]-11
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ian Archer Wynn
civil defence
Home Guard
military living conditions
RAF Cranwell
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1158/11717/PThorpJF1601.2.jpg
ff1f3350206f6261bc6dec0c3a9ef84c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1158/11717/AThorpJF160412.1.mp3
fd9fa4392a3c236f3815a3bff1903dc9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Thorp, John Foster
J F Thorp
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer John Foster Thorp (1924 - 2018, 1623333 Royal Air Force), a list of his operations, a page from a log book and notes on 467 Squadron and Lancaster R5868. He flew completed a tour of operations as a rear gunner with 467 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Thorp, JF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Warrant Officer John Foster Thorp of 467 Squadron at his home in Bamford, Rochdale at half past one on Tuesday the 12th April 2016. Also present with us are his eldest son Derek and his wife Betty. Warrant Officer Foster, excuse me, Warrant Officer Thorp if you can just describe for us please your family set up. Where you were born and grew up? How many people in your family? Please.
JT: Yes. I was born in Manchester and I grew up in Manchester. In Higher Blackley mainly. And I was there until I was eighteen years of age at which point I went into the RAF.
BW: Was there only you in the family? Did you have any brothers and sisters?
JT: I have. I had one sister. She’s now deceased. But no brothers. No.
BW: And where did you, whereabouts did you go to school?
JT: I went to the local school first until I was fourteen. Sorry. The local school until I was ten. And then I went to North Manchester Grammar School, Chain Bar, Moston. And I left there in September 1939 when the war broke out and the school was evacuated but my father wouldn’t let me be evacuated.
BW: And so you stayed in —
JT: So I stayed at home. And when I became seventeen years of age I joined the local Home Guard which gave me some insight into military training.
BW: And did your sister remain at home at the same, same time? She wasn’t evacuated either or did, did she leave?
JT: She was in a different school.
BW: I see.
JT: So — yeah.
BW: And what prompted you to join the Home Guard at first? Why? Why them?
JT: Just to be military I suppose and wear a uniform. My father was in the ’14/’18 war, in the army and he told me, ‘Don’t go in the army,’ he said, ‘When you’re eighteen.’ So I, I had visions like most eighteen year olds of flying a Spitfire. So, I went to the RAF station, RAF recruiting office in Manchester and volunteered for pilot training. I was accepted. I eventually had to go to Cardington in Bedfordshire to have the aircrew medical and written examination. And then I was waiting then. I was on deferred service until I became a full age for military service. That’s turning eighteen. And, when was it? September 1942 I was called up to the RAF. And they, they had a general course for pilots, navigators and bomb aimers. They called it the PNB Scheme. And you took a general course in navigation, elementary navigation, meteorology, signalling, Morse code and RAF law. And other odds. Engines. Engines. And I did that initial training at Scarborough, Yorkshire.
BW: How long were you there?
JT: About four months I think it was. And then from there I went up to Scone in Scotland, near Perth, where there was a flying, flying school.
[recording interrupted]
BW: So, just to pick up we were, we were saying that you joined the Home Guard and been selected for pilot training and that you’d then completed your initial training and been posted back to Heaton Park. Coincidentally just a mile away from where your parents actually lived.
JT: Yeah.
BW: And your home was in Manchester. So, you were waiting there for your name to come up on a, on a list to either be sent out to Canada, South Africa or where ever.
JT: Further training. Yes. That’s right. And while I was at Heaton Park we used to have a morning parade and a roll call to make sure nobody had buzzed off home with being so frustrated waiting at the, at the — [pause] And so, one morning at the morning parade the person in charge of us said a course had been started for air gunners. And if anybody would like to volunteer to go on to this course then report to the office. So, like a lot of others, they wanted three hundred volunteers and they got over two hundred for these. You see, the point was that Lancasters, Stirlings, Halifaxes carried two gunners and they needed, so they needed more gunners than that. Than any other trade. And so I went and volunteered for air gunner and I was posted to Andreas in the Isle of Man. And there was one of two, one of three airfield on the Isle of Man. There was Andreas was the gunnery school, Jurby was bomb aimer’s and the Royal Navy had taken over Douglas Airport for their, training their Fleet Air Arm people.
BW: Where? What was the first base called?
JT: Andreas.
BW: Andreas?
JT: Andreas. A N D R E A S.
BW: Ok. And that was specifically for air gunnery was it?
JT: Air gunnery training. Yes. Yes. Used to go up on an, in an Avro Anson which had an upper turret and about six of you would go up with the pilot and then an aircraft would come along towing a drogue and you fired from the turret at this drogue. And then when they dropped the drogue on the airfield when you’d finished the exercise they counted the number of holes. And there was six of us firing at it so they divided it by six and that was your score. So, whether you’d hit it or whether you peppered it, you know.
BW: Yeah.
JT: That was the way they worked it.
BW: Nowadays they use, they use coloured paint on the, on the bullets but they didn’t then.
JT: No. No.
BW: They just — right.
JT: So —
BW: This is interesting because at this time in your life you’ve joined the Home Guard. You volunteered for pilot training. You’d been accepted as a pilot.
JT: Yeah.
BW: As you say in your view you were going to fly Spitfires.
JT: I wanted to.
BW: What, what changed in your mind to go for air gunner? What, why the change from pilot?
JT: Frustration.
BW: Simple as that.
JT: Frustration. Not making progress. And that was what it really was. And the same with a lot of other people. And so I passed out on the basis of the number of shots in the, in the drogue. I passed out as an air gunner. As a, they gave me the rank of sergeant and the wing. I got my AG wing. And I was then posted to Upper Heyford in Oxfordshire which was a base where pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, radio operators and so on came there and they formed into crews. And what happened with the pilot this was the, of course the skipper of the crew and he used to be wondering around with a piece of paper and a pencil and he’d go up to a person and say, ‘Have you got a crew yet?’ ‘No sir.’ ‘Would you like to go in my crew?’ Well, an Australian, an Australian flying officer. Flying officer rank pilot said to me, ‘Would you like to join my crew?’ So, I said, ‘Yes. Yes.’ He seemed a nice fellow and I said, ‘I’ll join your crew.’ So he said, ‘First of all, before you definitely decide,’ he said, ‘I’m on retraining because I had a crash and my bomb aimer was killed. We were flying in a Wellington and one engine cut out’. The Wellington didn’t fly very well on one engine and that’s why he crashed. And so I said to him, ‘Well,’ I said, ‘Everybody is allowed one crash.’ So, I said, ‘I’ll join you.’ And I never regretted it. He was a smashing fellow. He was about, I think he was thirty years of age. Which was getting old in flying ranks you know, really. And he said, ‘Come on then. Now you’ve joined me,’ he said, ‘What’s your name?’ So I said, ‘John.’ ‘Right, Johnny.’ And I was Johnny from then on, ‘And, I’ll introduce you to the, I’ll introduce you to the crew. The other members of the crew,’ he said, ‘I’ve been looking for a rear gunner,’ he said, ‘And that’s the final one I wanted.’ So, I said, ‘Ok.’ And there was Herby Phillips the navigator, Canadian. Eric Clem was the mid-upper gunner. Poor Eric never, he didn’t last the war. He was killed. And then there was [pause] do you want the names if I can remember them? There’s Herby Phillips —
BW: Yeah.
JT: Who was the navigator. Canadian.
BW: Eric Clem was the Aussie.
JT: Pardon?
BW: Eric Clem was an Aussie. Is that right?
JT: Eric Clem was an Aussie. Yes. Eric. Yes.
DT: He was your mate wasn’t he?
JT: Pardon?
DT: Eric was your mate.
JT: Can you throw me that red book? That red book off there please.
DT: Yeah.
JT: I made a list of it the other day and — thank you very much.
BW: Was your pilot called MacLaughlin?
JT: David MacLaughlin was the pilot and when he introduced himself he said, ‘My name is David MacLaughlin,’ he said, ‘While we’re flying you call me skipper. But all other times it’s Mac.’ Showing the lack of rank. Not pulling rank you see. So, anyhow, oh dear. I damaged it [pages turning]
DT: Do you want to carry on talking dad?
JT: Here we are.
DT: And I’ll have a look for you.
JT: There we are, Derek.
DT: You’ve got it.
JT: David MacLaughlin pilot. Aussie. Herbert Phillips — navigator. He was Canadian Air Force. The bomb aimer I could never, I can’t remember his name. He was rather a fellow who didn’t mix very well.
BW: Was it Craven? Does that sound familiar? Craven.
JT: Yeah. It does. George Craven was it? Have you got a list of them somewhere? [laughs] Albert Smith, the radio operator. He was from the northeast of England. Reg Hodgkinson was the engineer. He was, he was from Warrington. Eric Clem was the mid-upper gunner. Australian. And myself then. Rear gunner.
DT: Didn’t you start out with another mid-upper?
JT: Pardon?
DT: You started out with another mid-upper gunner didn’t you but he wasn’t able to — ?
JT: Well, we had one. A Canadian. But he couldn’t, he couldn’t stand altitude flying. He used to pass out if he got up to altitude. So that’s when —
BW: And so you swapped him, did you?
JT: Pardon?
BW: You swapped him, did you?
JT: We swapped him. Yeah. Yeah.
DT: It was, was it his skull? His skull hadn’t closed up properly.
JT: That’s right. Yeah.
DT: And there was a hole in the middle of his skull. And when he went up to altitude he passed out. So he was —
JT: Medical problem.
DT: Medical. Yeah.
BW: Wow.
JT: He was a Canadian.
BW: And George Craven. Was he an Aussie or was he, was he British?
JT: George Craven. He was an Aussie. Yeah. But Eric Clem, I said he didn’t last the war. He, he’d done, he did twenty ops with us. Twenty trips with us. Eric. And then he was taken ill with tonsillitis. Went into the sick bay and when he came out he didn’t re-join our crew. And he joined another crew and went, he went to Stuttgart and didn’t, they didn’t come back. He was my room-mate actually. We shared a room. He was a very special little chap. He was twenty nine years of age which was getting on for aircrew really.
BW: Where did you live with the crew? Were you in a Nissen hut or were you in married quarters on the station?
JT: At Waddington? Waddington. Well, it was, was a peacetime base so they had proper built up accommodation over the sergeant’s mess. There’s accommodation for sergeants and like I say I shared a room with Eric until he was killed.
BW: And at this time, you, you’ve met the crew at Upper Heyford and you then were posted as a crew to 467 Squadron at Waddington.
JT: Well, well at first we were at Upper Heyford. We were flying Wellingtons in training. Crew getting, crew getting used to being a crew. Crew training.
BW: What did you think of Wellingtons?
JT: They were alright. Good solid aircraft. Yes. A bit heavy and all that but we didn’t fly in them operationally. It was purely cross-country flying. Bombing practice and things like that. Just straight general training. And then we went from there to Stirlings to swap on to four-engined mark types. Be on four engines then. And that’s where we picked up a navigator - flight engineer. And then from Stirlings we went on to Lancasters. Just a short session. Conversion on to Lancasters and then from there to Waddington.
BW: And do you recall the Conversion Unit where you flew Lancasters?
JT: Was it Wigsley? Was it Wigsley? I’m not sure. I thought it was Wigsley. We went around a bit. No. That was Stirlings. Not Syerston were it? [pages turning]
BW: But as you say you weren’t flying operations at this time. You were just learning to work together as a crew.
JT: To knit together as a crew. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody was still being trained to some extent. Syerston.
BW: I see.
JT: Syerston. That’s where we converted on to Lancasters.
BW: And how long was your course there? How long was your course there? Do you know?
JT: Syerston? Was about a fortnight. Three weeks. It was purely getting used to that type. I mean we’d converted from Wellingtons on to Stirlings for multi-engine. Four engines. And then we’d gone from Stirlings then on to Lancaster conversion because Lancasters were in short supply, you know. Being they were building up the Lancaster force on Bomber Command.
BW: So, so what time, what sort of stage of the war was this? Was this ’41, ’42? Or —
JT: That was in April 1944. That was before D-Day that was of course.
BW: And how did you rate the Stirling aircraft? How did you find them?
JT: It was fairly solid but it was a bit cumbersome. Lumbered along you know. And the thing that struck me really was I was, I was airborne before everybody else because it was quite a long fuselage. They put the tail up to keep the nose down while, while they’re going down the runway and I’m up in the air and everybody else is down on the ground.
BW: And so when you moved then to Waddington to join 467 and start on Lancasters what was your, your impression then? What was the feeling between you and the crew about getting on to Lancasters? Was it like moving from a biplane to a Spitfire? Or was it —
JT: No. From my point of view it was always the same because it was just a turret. Flying in a turret, you see. More and more different for the pilot really and the engineer and that. But from my point of view I just sat in the turret there.
BW: Did the aircraft itself feel different? Lancasters are notoriously cramped.
JT: Yes. It was a comfortable aircraft to fly in. Yes.
BW: You found it comfortable.
JT: Yeah. Found it comfortable. Yes.
BW: And you joined in April ’44. I suppose a similar time of year to what we’re in now but this is in the run up to D-Day which we know now.
JT: Yeah.
BW: Did you sense anything about the coming invasion? Invasion.
JT: No. Not really. What happened, there was a tannoy, you know. The tannoy loudspeaker system around the airfield and there was a tannoy message went out, ‘Will all crews of 467 Squadron report to the briefing room.’ That was one afternoon. And the commanding officer of the squadron told us that, they didn’t say it was D-Day of course because it was still secret then so much but he said, ‘You may be called for an early morning flight. Operation. So, get in to, get, get to bed early tonight and make sure you fully sleep.’ Slept like you see. And about 3 o’clock in the morning there was a hammering on the door and [unclear] much shouting on the corridor. People were being sent to waken all the crews up. And Eric and I got up, got dressed went down to the mess. Had a meal. The usual meal of bacon and egg and all that kind of thing. And, and then from there out to briefing and then we went out to the aircraft. And the thing we noticed as we were going out to the aircraft was they’d painted black and white stripes underneath the wings for recognition purposes. And we, we took off on D-Day morning about, I think it was about 3 or, about 3 o’clock in the morning or something like that. June the 6th [pause pages turning] D-Day. Excuse me. A bit slow.
BW: That’s alright.
DT: You’d done a few ops before then hadn’t you dad?
JT: Pardon?
DT: You’d done a few ops before then hadn’t you?
JT: What? Before D-Day?
DT: D-Day wasn’t your first.
JT: Oh, we’d only done a few before D-Day. Yeah. 2.40. Take off 2.40. St Pierre du Mont in France. That was 2.40 in the morning. And D-Day was quite a thing with us because we went, we went out at like I say 3 o’clock in the morning and as we were flying over, coming back, flying over the Channel — over the Channel there was a vast armada of ships going out. They were going to the landings. And I was going to say about them [pause] anyhow [pause] we flew back, we flew back to our base and they told us then that the D-Day landings, the landings had taken place. And, and again in the afternoon he said you’d be wanted again this evening for a flight. And that was midnight. Now, this was an interesting day. At midnight on D-day. And we took off and of course the Germans always anticipated that the invasion would take place from Dover to Calais. The shortest distance. And they’d stationed a lot of armour and troops south of Calais ready to repel the invasion but it came — it never came. And, so, we, we were detailed on that night of D-Day to bomb some railway, railway tracks. To stop this armour and these troops being transferred from south of Calais, taken over to, to Normandy to, to attack the British forces you see. Anyhow, as we rolled out about, just about midnight almost. Queued up to go on to the runway and then eventually our turn came. We went on the runway. We started, charged up the runway. We were about three quarters of the way along and heard a very loud bang like an explosion. Mac, Mac, in his Aussie twang said, ‘What the bloody hell was that?’ [laughs] And of course nobody knew. Anyway, he pulled it off the ground. We were about three quarters of the way down the runway so we couldn’t, couldn’t stop. We were too far. So, he pulled it off the ground and we carried on and after a few minutes he said there was no, whatever it was it hadn’t affected our controls. So, and the flight engineer said the engine readings are normal. So, Mac said, ‘Ok. We’ll carry on.’ And we carried on, we bombed and we started back and as we crossed the south coast Mac radioed to base and told them we’d got this. Oh no, sorry, before we got to there, as we got to the Channel Mac said, ‘We’d better check the undercarriage,’ and as the wheel went down a big black object flew past my turret. And the engineer looked out. He said, ‘We’ve lost our starboard tyre.’ That big bang was a tyre bursting as we were taking off. So Skip, Mac radioed base at Waddington and told them that we were having this problem. And another thing was as we were heading down towards, towards Waddington we got a constant speed unit in the propeller, in the propeller was, went faulty and we had to shut an engine down. So we were on three engines then. Anyhow, that was on the way to Woodbridge in Suffolk where there was an emergency landing place with a big runway and such. They were kitted out with ambulances and fire engines and all sorts there ready for emergency landings. And so I thought well how was Mac going to get this down, you know, with only one wheel? Anyhow, he went in. He kept this wing up with the dovetail, with the bad wheel and he landed on one wheel and the tail wheel and rolled down the runway and gradually, as we lost speed this wing dropped and the hub that was left after the tyre had gone, the hub hit the ground and we spun around and off the field. Off the strip on to the grass at the side. So, it was a marvellous bit of flying really. To fly a big aircraft like that on one wheel. Yes. So that was D-Day night.
BW: And so you didn’t, you didn’t get out to the target in France? You had to divert before you got there. Is that right? Or did you —
JT: Yeah. No. No. We got to the target. We bombed.
BW: You got to the target. Bombed the target.
JT: And on the way back but we didn’t, we didn’t know what the problem was then. It was only when we started on the way back and we started thinking about what was it? This noise and all that. And Mac put the wheels down and the engineer told us that we’d lost our starboard tyre. So, that was when we first knew about it.
BW: And did you get to find out how successful your attack on the target had been after all that?
JT: Sorry?
BW: Did the, did you get to find out how successful your attack on the target had been after all that?
JT: No. We never did. No. You’d usually get an aiming point photo. They had this, the camera and it was geared up with the bomb, bomb release and it switched, switched on when the, when your bombs had landed. And it should show your bombs. The effect of your bombs. A little camera.
BW: And this aircraft you were flying in at the time, I believe it was S Sugar. Is that right?
JT: Pardon?
BW: I believe the aircraft you were flying in at the time was S Sugar. Is that right?
JT: No. We flew in S for Sugar on our first operational flight.
BW: Just your first one.
JT: First one. June. 28th of May I think it was.
BW: Yeah.
JT: It was S for Sugar.
BT: Handy that log book, isn’t it?
JT: Hmmn?
BT: Handy that log book.
JT: Yes.
BT: Are you looking for something?
JT: July. May. June. What were we talking about? It’s got a W. It wasn’t W. That’s [pause]
BW: Yeah. So that, that’s your first, your first trip.
JT: Well, that was a special exercise, that was a —
BW: But then after that the aircraft you were in on D-Day wasn’t S Sugar then was it? It was, it was another one.
JT: Not D-Day. No.
BW: But that first one you flew in went on to be a well-known Lancaster didn’t it?
JT: It is. It’s, I’ll tell you something about that a bit more [pause] Oh yeah. There. 28th of the May. S for Sugar. 28th of May that.
BW: That’s it. Yeah. Bombing Cherbourg.
JT: Cherbourg. That’s it. So, actually it wasn’t our first. Yes. It was, it would be our first op that. First op because that was a special exercise. That was a special exercise when we flew in it. It was something to do with the radar check on something. And that’s our first trip. That was S for Sugar. Divert a little.
BW: And these are photos that you’ve got of the aircraft in the RAF Museum at Hendon. Is that right?
JT: These. No. No. No, these are Derek’s.
DT: My daughter.
JT: Two grandsons.
DT: My daughter and her husband and my grandsons went down to Hendon.
BW: I see.
DT: A few —
JT: Went down there and —
DT: Well, a few months ago and they took a load of photographs because of my dad’s association with it. They made a little booklet up for him and —
BW: Right.
JT: They allowed them, they allowed them in the prohibited area didn’t they?
DT: Yeah. They did. Yeah.
BW: Yeah. Well, that’s good of them.
JT: There they are.
BW: Yeah. That’s them in front of your turret.
JT: Yeah.
BW: And have you been to the same aircraft in Hendon? Have you seen it yourself?
JT: Well, I’ve been there a couple of times. Yes, and introduced myself. And they sent a young lad, a young chap with us who was on the section and he said he could he could take you to the aircraft. He took us down there and he undid the door and let us climb in. He said, ‘I can’t,’ he said, ‘I don’t know a lot about it,’ he said, ‘Because I’ve only just come on this section. So, I can’t tell you a lot about the Lancaster.’ I said, ‘Well I’ll tell you shall I?’ [laughs]
DT: Is that when you said it didn’t smell the same?
JT: Pardon?
DT: It didn’t smell the same.
JT: No. No. That was one thing that struck me was the smell. And then I realised a long time afterwards that there was no fuel in it, you see. It was an exhibition piece. There was no fuel in it for precautions. Safety precautions. So the aircraft didn’t smell the same [laughs]
BW: And when you were going on ops it presumably had a heavy smell of fuel in it.
JT: Oh yes. Yeah. Well, it always did when you were going on ops or not, you know. You could always smell the aircraft. Yeah.
BW: And when you were preparing for these early trips what sort of things did you have to do? What, what were you doing yourself to prepare for the, for the operations?
JT: Well, of course you had, you had your meal first and you were waited on by WAAFs. They volunteered to wait on us. A courtesy measure, you know for the lads that were going on ops. And anyhow then you went to, along to the, one of the hangars and they got to give you your flying rations. Which were boiled, a packet of boiled sweets, packets of chewing gum and [pause] what else was there? Boiled sweets, chewing gum, oh a block of chocolate. And depending on how, how long the flight was going to be depended on when you got two bags of chocolate [laughs] And then you went and picked up your parachute. You’d already picked up your flying gear from your locker and you picked up your parachute from the parachute store. And then you’d go out to the crew bus and they’d take you out to the aircraft. And that was the only preparation we did really. Picking up stuff we needed. Yeah.
BW: Did you attend the briefing with the rest of the crew?
JT: Oh yes. Yes. Oh yes. They had a long table. A long, you know, a collapsible table and benches, seat, chairs. And each crew used to gather around a table and the navigator usually had a map in front of him and he was already working on a flight plan. Yeah.
BW: And when you see it in films, where they unveil a map on a wall, was that the same kind of thing or different?
JT: Yes. Yes. Sometimes. I mean, once everybody was in they shut the door, the blinds were down and everything and then there was a map on the wall with a tape, a red tape going from your base down to where ever the target was. And the squadron commander would give, first give a chat about what the target was for and why it was picked for a target. What was being done there. Aircraft production or bombs or whatever. And then of course the Met officer. The meteorological officer would then give the weather report for the flight. What it was expected to be like over the target. Clear or not and, and what it would be like when you came back. And diversions. Possibly diversions if, if your airfield was fogged out. Of course Lincolnshire. You got quite a bit of mist in Lincolnshire. And you had to perhaps plan to be away from home when you come back.
BW: Most of your targets at this time are over France in preparation for D-Day. Did you get to fly over Germany at all?
JT: Oh yes. Yes. I’ve never logged precisely how many of each. Each way. But —
BW: Was there a difference in the operation between targets in France and Germany? Did you, did you feel one was more dangerous than the other? Or one was easier than the other?
JT: Well, Germany was obviously — particularly in what they called the Ruhr Valley. That, that was a bad place to go. And I can’t think what we used to call it now but I mean we were at Cherbourg, France which is only just on the coast you see. It isn’t so bad. We did one flight to Königsberg on the Baltic and the actual time was ten hours or something like that. So, it was a long flight. Down Stuttgart. That was where Eric was killed. But this wasn’t, he wasn’t on this flight. That was a eight hour. Eight hours. You notice, you notice the writing changes because Mac, the pilot’s, captain, the crew captain used to collect all the logbooks for his crew and he used to mess about with the logbook, you see. And Mac said to me, ‘You’re not putting enough information on. I’ll keep your logbook for you in the future.’ And that’s why. Why the writing changes.
BW: I see. So —
JT: I just used to put Ops — [unclear] Ops — St Pierre du Mont and then, but Mac put all sorts of, these sort of things down,
BW: What has he put on that one?
JT: Which one?
BW: What has he put on this one?
JT: “Ops Rennes. Landed at Skellingthorpe. Diversion was unsuitable.” Skellingthorpe was next door to our base. Next door to Waddington. There was Skellingthorpe, Bardney and Waddington were in a little group. That says, “Landed at Skellingthorpe.” It must have been fog. So, we were diverted there. I think we did about a third were German and the remainder were France because it would be about D-Day. Around about D-Day of course when we were very much involved in things. Königsberg, East Prussia. Ten hour fifty.
BW: And on such long trips like that how did you keep yourself occupied?
JT: Keeping my eyes open [laughs]. That was important. Yeah. Keep a look out you know. At night time of course. I remember one instance we were on a daylight operation actually. We were flying along and we were coming back and another aircraft just in front of us like that and I saw a Junkers 88. A fighter, German fighter, the 188 which had radar on the nose. And we were flying along and I saw this 188 so I told the skipper like, I said, ‘Junkers 88 starboard quarter. Starboard quarter level.’ So far, such a range. I forgot what it was now and so he said, ‘Keep your eye on it.’ Anyhow, the mid-upper gunner said, ‘I think he’s creeping up on this other Lancaster. And they don’t seem aware that he’s there. He’s coming up on them.’ I said, ‘Shall I fire a burst at him?’ So, the bomb aimer was a bit, you know. The bomb aimer said, George, he said, ‘No. No,’ he said, ‘Don’t you fire at him,’ he said, ‘He may come and turn on to us.’ I said, ‘Well we can’t sit here and watch. And watch him shoot that fellow down can we?’ I said, ‘Let’s give him a warning shot.’ And that’s what I did. Skipper said, ‘Yes. Go ahead.’ So, I gave a warning shot at this Junkers 88. And then the rear gunner of this other aircraft then opened up. And our mid-upper opened and he just dived away. The 88. And so then it was where had he gone to? Had he come around or was he coming around the other side. Where was he? Was he going to be a bit spiteful at us depriving him of his target? But we got away with it.
BW: And the other aircraft remained unscathed as well.
JT: Oh yes. Yeah. Yes.
BW: And when you fired that burst what, what sort of guns are you firing? Are they the 303s or did they change to the .5s at this time?
JT: The 303 Brownings. Four. Four 303 Brownings. And they were [pause] Yeah.
BW: How did you rate them? Did you find them effective weapons?
JT: Yes. Yes. I mean when I fired at this 88 I could see my bullets striking his [pause] they had the port. The port engines. They call it covers. Striking the cowlings on the, on the starboard. On the port engine. But how effective it was I don’t know. It didn’t shoot him down.
BW: But it winged him.
JT: Yes. It frightened him off perhaps.
BW: And was that the only time that you fired your guns at a target?
JT: No.
BW: Or did you get opportunity to use them on other occasions?
JT: Well, had one or two pops off at different ones. But we weren’t, we weren’t really, I wouldn’t say attacked. We were never attacked by a fighter. I got the impression if you fired at them and showed them that you were awake they went off. They weren’t interested. Yeah.
BW: So, just coming back to the start of a mission. When you get in to the aircraft to get into your turret what sort of actions are you going through then? What do you do to settle yourself into the turret?
JT: Well, just get in. Check the gunsight is lit up and of course plug into your intercom so that you’re in communication with the skipper and others. Couple up to the oxygen system. And you’re sitting on, in the latter part you were sitting on a parachute as a cushion of course.
BW: A seat pack.
JT: Yeah. A pilot, a pilot’s type pack they called it. Meaning the other one is the observer pack they called it. That was the one with the chest. Chest pack.
BW: But when you were carrying your ‘chute you had the seat pack. You, you sat on your chute. You didn’t stow it.
JT: Sat on it. Yes. Sat on the parachute. That was an advantage being in the rear turret really because if you had to bale out you turned the turret on the beam so that you were facing that way as you were going along this way say. Open the doors behind you, uncouple your, your plugs and pick your knees up and roll out backwards. And you sit on your parachute. So it was an easy place to get out of. Safest place. Safer than the mid-upper. I wouldn’t have liked sitting on the mid-upper turret.
BW: Did you ever, you never swapped positions?
JT: No. No.
BW: Or flew in that position at all.
JT: I didn’t want to.
BW: You stayed purely rear turret.
JT: No. As a mid-upper he’d got to come down out of from his turret. Down the roof of the bomb bay. Down on to the back. Back end. And then turn to the door, open the door. And if the aeroplane was going like that that, you know it was a bit of a job.
BW: But you never had to bale out.
JT: Oh no. No. I got it planned in my mind. I knew just what I would do.
BW: And what did you, what was your plan if you had to bale out?
JT: To bale out? Well like I say —
BW: You would turn the turret around and bale out but did you, did your plan extend to what you would do on the ground once you were down there?
JT: No. Well, some of the lectures you had were on escape procedures and all that kind of thing. To try and get what they called a home run. You’ve been aware of all this haven’t you? What’s your connection with the RAF?
BW: Me personally? I, I had a couple of years in pilot training in the mid-80s but it was, well for me personally, I was nineteen, twenty years old and, you know flying a jet at that age was ultimately not something I was cut out for so, you know, I left. But in the same manner that that you were briefed on escape and evasion procedures we had as well. And we had exercises in the country about things, you know. You were briefed on what you could expect. And of course flying over enemy territory you had escape kit as well, didn’t you? You had things like silk handkerchiefs with maps on them.
JT: Oh yeah. Yes.
BW: Compass in buttons and things like that.
JT: That’s right. A compass. Two buttons. Two buttons. You’d cut them off and one had a little pin in it like that in the middle and a dimple in the top one and that was, made a little compass in those. Yes.
BW: Thankfully you never had to use them.
JT: No.
BW: You had a good pilot who got you back every time.
JT: Oh yes. Got me back. Oh yes. He was a good pilot.
BW: You said you got on pretty well as a crew altogether.
JT: Hmmn?
BW: You said you got on pretty well as a crew altogether.
JT: Oh yeah. Yes. We got on.
BW: But did you socialise together after the operations?
JT: Not really. No. No. Didn’t [pause] That’s one thing I regretted really. That we didn’t have a sort of a get together after. When we’d finished. Mac was awarded a DFC and when he was going he came to me one day he said, ‘I’m going down to London,’ he said, ‘And he didn’t say about his DFC but I found out afterwards.’ He said, ‘I’m going down to London,’ he said, ‘And they’re flying me down there,’ he said, ‘I believe you’re going to — ’ what is it called? Near Market Harborough. He said, ‘I believe you’re going to,’ so and so, ‘Can we drop you off there?’ So, I said, ‘Oh yes. If you don’t mind.’ So, I got my two kit bags and my other pack and all that and he said, he said, ‘I’m in a hurry,’ he said, ‘So, as quickly as you can.’ And I never got time to say anything to the other lads before I went. And I thought afterwards, you know, it was a bit rotten after flying together all that time.
BW: And so that sounds as though it was the end of your tour when that happened. Is that right?
JT: End of the —
BW: Was it the end of your tour when that happened?
JT: Oh yes. Yes. See they stipulated that you were required to do thirty five ops. The squadron’s commander decided how many trips you had to do to complete what they called a tour of operations. And different squadrons had different numbers. Some had thirty. Some had thirty five and ours was thirty five. Mac, when the crew first arrived on the squadron from training the pilots of course had no operational experience so, they used to send them on a trip or two trips if possible with an experienced crew. And to get, see what, what the Pathfinders approach to things, you know. Over the target and that. And the, I was going to say [pause] anyhow I never got the chance to say goodbye to anybody or exchange addresses or anything. So completely lost touch with them. That was it.
DT: That’s why you did thirty three ops wasn’t it?
JT: Pardon?
DT: That’s why you did thirty three operations and not thirty five.
JT: Oh well, we did thirty three.
DT: Because Mac had done two.
JT: Out of thirty five. Well, Mac did two of these experience trips so we needed thirty five. They said that’s it. So we only did thirty three.
BW: And you, you didn’t go on to serve with another crew. You stopped at that point and finished altogether.
JT: That was it, yeah. Yeah.
BW: And in your log there are some targets that you attacked at the end of June which were V-1 sites. Do you recall what was briefed about those at all? Were they static sites or just storage areas or —
JT: Well, there was Peenemunde of course which was attacked. That was where the Germans were concentrating their rocket activities. But no it was at a targets, you know. You were given a target and that was it. You go and do the job. It’s rather strange you know because our last trip was, was to Mönchengladbach in Germany. And we bombed there one night. That last one and that was it. And 1956 I think it was, our swim, we belonged to a swimming club, the boys and Betty and myself belonged to a swimming club in Manchester. And one of the boys had been in the army at Mönchengladbach and he had formed a friendship with youngsters in the swimming club there [unclear] himself. And he formed this friendship and then the club, their club decided to come over to England and have a joint swimming competition with our club. And it was from Mönchengladbach. And they asked us to, would our members accommodate some youngsters? So we said we’d have two boys. Having three sons of our own. And Heinz and Hans Peter. Hans Peter has died since but Heinz and his wife Sabina, we’re still in touch with them. We’ve been over a few times. They’ve been over here. And I’m walking around Mönchengladbach and think well I bombed this place a few years ago, you know.
DT: Didn’t they take you to a hill dad?
JT: Pardon?
DT: They took you to a hill that was built out of rubble.
JT: Oh yes. Yes. At the back of Sabina and Heinz house there’s this mound. Big mound grassed over and a path leading up so you go up and seats and a garden on the top. A memorial garden. And Sabina said to me one time, she said, her English was very good. She said, ‘Do you know what this is, John?’ I said, ‘What? No.’ So she said, ‘This is rubble from when they were bombed during the war.’ So, I said, ‘Oh dear,’ you know. I didn’t tell her we’d made it, we helped to contribute to it because they were a smashing couple. Yeah.
BW: Did you ever get to see any of the V-1s that you were attacking the ground —
JT: No.
BW: Targets for.
JT: No.
BW: It was just another —
JT: Another target.
BW: Another target.
JT: Yeah.
BW: There were a couple of times where you flew in support of allied troops. One was over Caen and the other was over Königsberg. Did you get to see any of the troops on the ground or were you too high for that?
JT: Oh, too, we would be too high. Yes. Yes.
BW: Your CO, I believe was a Wing Commander Brill.
JT: Brill. Yes. Yes.
BW: What do you recall of him? He was Australian, wasn’t he?
JT: Australian. Yes. Wing Commander Brill. Yes. Deegdon was the flight commander. A fellow called Deegdon.
BW: Deedon?
JT: Flight commander.
BW: And which flight were you in on your squadron?
JT: I can’t remember.
BW: Ok.
JT: No. I can’t remember. He was Australian. Deegdon. I’m not sure whether Brill was killed later in a flying accident. I seem to remember.
BW: Your last trip in your log is to, is it Rheydt. R H E Y D T is that?
JT: Rheydt. Rheydt. Yeah.
BW: Rheydt.
JT: Yeah.
BW: And there was a notable incident on the, on that that raid. Do you recall what it was?
JT: To Rheydt. That was Mönchengladbach. Rheydt. Mönchengladbach.
BW: And who was the master bomber?
JT: Oh yes. Gibson. Guy Gibson. He was killed on that raid. Yeah.
BW: Was there any information given to you about what had happened to him?
JT: No. No. No. I don’t recall. Guy Gibson. Yeah. Wait a minute, yes. Just a minute. I saw, I could tell you something on that. As we were coming back over Holland, we were coming back over Holland and I saw, looking down I saw this twin-engined aircraft on fire. Flying on fire. And it was obviously under control because I thought it was trying to force land. And I saw it hit the ground and burst into flames. And when we got back to base they told us Guy Gibson hadn’t reported back. And I never connected the two facts of seeing this twin-engined, this twin-engined aircraft on fire. I never connected that with him at that time and it was a long time after that that it really hit home that it, there was a possibility.
BW: Because he was in a Mosquito.
JT: A Mosquito. That’s right. Yeah.
BW: And killed over Holland.
JT: Yeah.
BW: It was said that he was heard giving the crews on that raid a pat on the back before turning for home. Was that something that you recall and was it something that was broadcast to crews? Were you able to hear something like that or, or not?
JT: Well, we would have heard. We would perhaps would have heard it over the intercom but I don’t recall anything of that. No.
BW: Were messages broadcast between aircraft that you could hear on the intercom as well or was that only between the wireless operators on each aircraft? Could you? Could you hear exchanges on any raids with other aircraft?
JT: No. I don’t think there was never much communication between aircraft. The master bomber used to, used to communicate with the crews and you know, call in. You were in a flight. You were a wave. You know, you were wave one, two or three. You were told that when you were being briefed. You would be on such a wave. And timings were based on that and [pause] but the master bomber would, if the target, if the aiming of the target, you know, they dropped a marker to, as an aiming point. If it wasn’t accurate they’d say add two or three seconds or something like that to, for overshoot. If the targets, if the flare drops there and the target’s there and you’re coming this way he’d say three. Add three. And you’ve got your bombsight goes through, through the marker and then you’ve got the one, two, three - bang. Drop yours.
BW: Yeah. So, if the marker has fallen short of the target.
JT: Short of the target.
BW: And you’re heading in the direction of the marker you then add three seconds in order to hit the target.
JT: That’s right. To do that.
BW: And when the master bomber was giving you those kind of instructions could you as crew members hear that on the intercom?
JT: Oh yes. We’d hear that. Yes.
BW: And were there occasions when you recognised master bombers perhaps? Like Gibson. Had you heard him before?
JT: Not really. You knew who the master bomber was. And Willie Tait was another one. Willie Tait. Guy Gibson. One or two. One or two were a bit unpopular because they made a cock up of it sometimes. Some of these master bombers.
BW: And did you get to meet Gibson or —
JT: I saw him once. When I was at the Isle of Man. When I was in training. And there was a squadron was walking along, marching along to a lecture and the chappy who was in charge of us said, ‘Oh, here comes the CO.’ And they were coming, a group of about four or five people. Officers. And of course eyes right, you know. That kind of thing. And one of them was Guy Gibson. Yeah. And it was after the dams raid so he was known, you know, and that. And that was at, that was at Andreas. Want to see if it is in the logbook? I’ve got his logbook here. A copy.
BW: How did you come by that?
JT: I forget now. Somebody gave it me.
BW: And what was, this was after the dams but what was his reputation?
JT: I couldn’t really say. Supposed to be umpty, a bit huffy sometimes, you know. This is when I was at Andreas. It would be somewhere about [pause pages turning] Trying to pinpoint when Gibson was [pause] he had a friend on the camp. Some other officer. And he’d come to visit him and he’d flown in to —
BW: I see.
JT: Andreas. To see his friend. That would be August ’43.
BW: Right.
JT: It was round about that time but if it’s in his logbook I don’t know.
BW: Yeah. The log here that you’ve got a copy of says September 16th 1944. This is a copy of Gibson’s own logbook. It says his last recorded trip was in a Lightning. Which would be a P38.
JT: Yeah.
BW: From Langford Lodge. So, prior to that he’d been flying Oxfords but interspersed with Lightnings and Mosquitoes. So —
JT: It doesn’t say his destination does it?
BW: Langford Lodge. To and from Langford Lodge. That’s all. But —
JT: No. I mean I wouldn’t have —
BW: It seems he’s not been long on that op. On those, on that tour. But when you were out over the targets of these places particularly over, over Germany what was, what was the area like? I mean, were you able to see much or was there frequently heavy cloud or were you able to see a lot out of the —
JT: Well, you could see a lot. You could see the, you could see the fires and things like that. And we were too high to see, see much you know. You couldn’t see people or anything like that.
[pause]
BW: You’d done, in total thirty three ops in just over four months which was pretty consistent flying really. Did you want to continue and carry on and do another tour?
JT: Well, I did. I went from operational flying on to instructing at OTU. Operational Training Unit. And then one of the pilots [pause] I’m trying to think which one it was [pause] One of the pilot instructors said to me one day, ‘I’m getting a crew together to go back on ops. Do you want to come with me?’ So, I said, ‘Yeah, I’ll come with you.’ So, and, well that must have been before, before June. June ’46 was it? ’45. Anyhow, he said, I said, ‘Alright, I’ll come with you.’ So, we went into the training and while we were in training we went to, we went to 100 Squadron for training and [pause] just casting my mind back and it developed then that the war was over. So, there was no point in us completing. And then he decided to cut down squadron strength and of course we were all old stages more or less — due for early de-mob. We were the first lots to be de-mobbed. So, so they made us redundant. Our crew. And, and then I was told I was going to 9 Squadron. At Waddington strangely enough. Back to Waddington. Of course, 9 Squadron was an old First World War squadron. Number 9. Oh and a chappy, Pete Langdon, he was the, he was the deputy commander of the squadron. And that’s when we went out to India. I went and reported to the 9 Squadron adjutant when I arrived. I was posted as a single, as an individual rather than with a crew. And I went in to the adjutant and he said, ‘Hello John, how are you?’ and he was, he’d been one of the instructors with me instructing. And so he said, ‘Did you come to join us?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘We’re going out to Hong Kong.’ So, I said, ‘Oh, I’ll come with you. I’ll join you on that.’ And anyhow, we finished up at Salbani in India. Which was a different place altogether.
BW: And what was it like out there?
JT: Pardon?
BW: What was it like out there?
JT: What? Salbani. Well, just, just out in the wilds. Out in the wilds really. There was, there was the airfield. The airfield, the railway station and that was about all.
BW: Did you get much time off? Off duty? Were you able to go off base into the nearby town?
JT: No. No. Didn’t go off. The nearest place was Calcutta. I went there twice. I went on the train and went twice. I got nose bleed and, I broke my nose when I was a kid you see and it used to bleed sometimes. They said it was the heat causing the rise in blood pressure. I went sick and they sent me to Calcutta to see the ear, nose and throat specialist. I went twice.
BW: How long were you out in India for?
JT: About four months. Yeah. Be four month. Yeah. January to April. January the 2nd we took off. Should have gone on the 1st but the weather wasn’t suitable. Flew to [pause] North Africa and then along over the desert to Karachi. Sorry. To Egypt. Egypt. Egypt to [pause] oh my mind’s going. From Egypt to —
BW: Would you fly to —
JT: Karachi. North Africa.
DT: You went to Italy first didn’t you?
JT: Pardon?
DT: Didn’t you go to Italy first?
JT: I went to Italy. I went to Italy on, that was Operation Dodge.
DT: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JT: Dodge they called it. The flying troops back. Flying the 8th Army chaps back. In fact, there’s a picture of them in. This aircraft was included in it.
BT: Are you warm enough love?
BW: I’m fine thank you, yes.
BT: Are you warm enough David?
DT: I’m fine, love. Yeah. No problem.
BW: Yeah. So they did. They did. Yeah, they did repatriate soldiers and POWs in Lancasters. Yeah. Operation Exodus.
JT: This wasn’t prisoners. This was the 8th Army.
BW: 8th Army. So, that’s an original photo of S Sugar with, as you say troops from the 8th Army about to board. And what were you? Were you still flying Lancasters out in India or were you flying something different?
JT: Oh yes. Lancasters. Yeah. Yeah. Glad. Yeah.
BW: And when you, when you returned back to the UK what, what happened then?
JT: Well, I got married. Didn’t we? [laughs] Yeah. 1946.
BW: And where had you both met?
JT: Hmmn?
BW: Where had you both met? Where did you meet each other?
JT: Oh, we grew up together. Lived in the same road, didn’t we?
BT: Lived on the same road.
JT: Yeah.
BW: So, you’d known each other for years before you joined up.
JT: Oh yeah.
DT: You lived at, what was it mum? You lived number 65.
BT: What?
DT: You lived at number 65 and dad lived at 57.
BT: 57.
JT: That’s right.
BT: So he knew all about me.
DT: And didn’t mess about.
BW: So he knew what he was getting in to.
BT: What love?
BW: He knew what he was letting himself in for.
BT: Oh, he knew what he was taking on. Yeah.
DT: There was no messing about because that was my mum’s dad.
BT: That was my dad. A policeman.
JT: A copper.
BW: I see.
DT: That was, that’s my grandad.
JT: She’s like her father.
BW: Yeah.
DT: He was a big man.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Thirty years. Thirty years in the police.
BT: Lovely fellow wasn’t he John? Really nice.
JT: Oh yeah.
BW: He looks like he, he’d had service too. Did he serve in the Second War or was he in the First?
JT: No. Well he’d got the defence —
BT: A policeman.
JT: He’d got, the policeman and ambulanceman and fireman all got the defence medal didn’t they?
BW: Alright. Thank you.
BT: He used to take the kids at that time you used to take the kids across, you know from, from the school to the other side of the road and they all used to run just so to take hold of his hand.
DT: He was huge. He was about — how tall was he? Six foot something.
BT: Six foot seven.
BW: Wow.
BT: Something like that.
DT: He was the police, the police tug of war team. He was the anchorman.
BW: I should hope so.
BT: Got some lovely presents. Some lovely prizes. Cups and things, you know.
BW: So, when you returned from India you got married and then you were demobbed.
JT: I was demobbed in, soon enough. I enrolled at St John’s Wood. Lord’s Cricket Ground, St John’s Wood. I was de-mobbed at Wembley Stadium.
DT: Didn’t you go on Lincolns dad?
JT: Pardon?
DT: Didn’t you go on to Lincolns?
JT: Ah yes. We went on to Lincolns for a short while. Yes.
BW: And where were you flying those from?
JT: Lincolns? [pause] Binbrook was it? Or Lindholme? Lindholme. Number 9 Squadron attached to Lindholme for —
BW: So, you wouldn’t have been months then doing that. Once you came back from India you wouldn’t be many months with 9 Squadron would you?
JT: Yes. I were with 9 Squadron until the end of the war. Until I was demobbed rather. When we were on Lincolns. I were demobbed from the 9 Squadron.
BW: I see.
JT: At Binbrook. Binbrook. When we came back from India.
BW: Once you left the RAF what did you go on to do then?
JT: I went, I worked for the CWS before. In Manchester. The Coop headquarters in Manchester. I worked for them before I went in the RAF and when I came out of course they had to give me my job back. And I went, I was in the sales accounts department.
BW: For the Co-op.
JT: For the Co-op. Yes. In their head office there and the chappy who was made the boss. The boss retired, the manager of the department. He’d stayed on extra years during the war and of course when peace came he, he opted for his retirement. And the chap who took over as boss, he’d married one of the CWS director’s daughters. So, of course he was a squadron leader in the RAF and when he came back he, they gave him, the boss gave him the bosses job when the boss retired. They gave him his job. And he said to me one day, I mean he had a bit of a soft spot for being ex-RAF as well. He said to me, he said, ‘There’s a vacancy in the taxation department,’ he said, ‘Are you interested?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ He said, ‘It will pay better than this department.’ So, I said, ‘Oh yeah. Certainly.’ So I got the job in taxation. Company tax work. And very interesting it was. Cut and thrust with the Inland Revenue you know and sending, we used to do audits for various Co-op societies and I used to do the tax work then. So, what they had to pay in tax from the profits or how money we got back from them for the losses and such. You know. And I finished up as managing the department at one time. And then they merged. They merged with the auditors and you’ve heard of KPMG have you?
BW: Accountants.
JT: On London Road. And they merged with them so I was just about due for retiring then so I got out. And I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the work. Interesting.
BW: I can think of a few people who’d be, who’d be asking for your skills. I can think of a few people who would be asking for your skills these days.
JT: Oh yeah.
BW: Somebody who lives at number 10 I think.
DT: Yours was company tax wasn’t it? You were company tax. Not personal tax.
BW: Yeah.
JT: Company tax. Not individuals. It was company tax. Yes.
DT: But you used to fill my tax forms in and you’d say, ‘Cross that out. Cross that out. Sign. Tick that, tick that, tick that. Sign that,’ he said, ‘That’ll be thirty guineas.’
[pause]
DT: You managed to fly Lancasters as well didn’t you dad?
JT: Pardon?
DT: You managed to fly Lancasters.
JT: Oh, I did fly a Lancaster once. Yeah.
DT: Yeah.
BW: How did you manage that?
JT: Well, we had a pilot who decided that it would be a good idea if different crew members interchanged. So, he said, ‘Here John,’ he said, ‘Fly this.’ I said, ‘Oh aye. Go on.’ I got in the pilot’s seat. Flew it. But just straight and level stuff, more or less, you know.
DT: He wanted to make sure you got home.
JT: Hmmn?
DT: He wanted to make sure he got home in case, if he was hurt.
JT: Well, no this was after.
DT: That was after was it?
JT: After all. Yeah.
DT: Oh, I thought it was —
JT: No. Mac didn’t. No. Mac was, Mac was the pilot.
DT: Yeah.
JT: He was in charge.
DT: Oh right.
BW: Was he pretty strict about that sort of thing?
JT: Yeah. He were a good pilot.
BW: There’s a photo here of your CO and the Duke of Gloucester. Duke of Gloucester’s on the left there.
JT: He became —
BW: And your CO —
JT: Yeah. He was at, he was made the Governor General of Australia wasn’t he. So he came to an Australian squadron to say, when he went to Australia there he could genuinely, could say, ‘I’ve met the lads in England,’ you know. That kind of thing. Yeah.
BW: Do you recall that visit taking place? It would be about the time you were on.
JT: No. No.
BW: Waddington.
JT: I do remember actually. We were told he was coming but I, we’d been on operation that previous night and I said, I’m not getting up to go and see him [laughs] Yes.
BW: There was a couple of Australian crewmen in that photo too.
JT: Yeah. Wing Commander Brill. Yeah.
BW: Did you happen to know them? The other, the other crewmen. They’re named.
JT: No. I don’t. Where did you get this from? Got secret information. Got me here.
BW: That’s from the Australian War Museum that particular photo. But you shared that that base at Waddington with 463 Squadron as well didn’t you?
JT: 463 and 467. That’s right. Yes. Yeah.
BW: And did you get to mix with them at all from the other?
JT: Not really. You didn’t really know. You know there was just a mass of fellows and you didn’t know whether they were 463 or 467. The only, the only near association and strangely enough it was, that was through Derek. That mate of yours who [pause] they formed [pause] what do you call it? Oh God. What’s his name? His father. Johnson.
DT: Johnson. Max Johnson.
JT: Johnson. Johnson. That’s right.
DT: Peter Johnson. Max Johnson was his father and Max Johnson was on 467 Squadron wasn’t he?
JT: That’s right, yeah.
DT: Yeah. And he’s actually listed as one of the pilots of POS at the time.
JT: Yeah.
DT: Yeah.
JT: That’s right. Yeah.
DT: Another coincidence, Brian. I worked for a company. I worked in the chemical research department and I was seconded to a university in Australia to do a research project over there. I was there for two months I think it was. My wife and my daughter came with us and and in the department there was, I was talking to some of the lads in the lab and in the research area and I was saying, ‘Oh, my dad was in the Royal Australian Air Force.’ And they said, ‘Oh you want to come and see Doc Pete. A fellow called Peter Brownall.’ And they said he was on Lancasters during the war. So, they took me along to see this elderly university lecturer and we got talking. A really nice guy you know. And he says, he says what squadron were you with? I said, ‘What squadron were you with?’ So he said 467. I said, ‘Oh that was my dad’s squadron. 467.’ But he was slightly after my dad and I think he was just there, he was there just as the war finished. He’d done his training and he got on to the squadron but 467 then was at Metheringham. And so he was absolutely hacked off because the war had ended and he hadn’t been able to —
BW: Yeah.
DT: Go on operations.
BW: Participate.
DT: So, he was flown, he flew back then to Australian and took up his post as, I think a botany lecturer. Some sort of science lecturer, you know.
BW: Yeah.
DT: So I was talking to him and it was interesting. And there was a not a DVD but a tape of that time. This was 1994. A tape had been produced about, called, “The Lancaster at war,” and I told him about this. So, when I got home I searched out a copy of it and posted it off for him. And I got a really nice letter back you know, thanking me for this. And he said he’d had to go out and buy a tape player and people had been coming around and he’d been, you know he’d been showing this Lancaster thing, Lancaster tape to all his, all his pals. But he was a nice chap. And do you remember that cartoon that he gave me? And it was —
[recording paused]
BW: Last, I think, section to, to cover. Since your retirement and since you left the RAF how does it feel to see Bomber Command being commemorated after all this time? There’s now the Hyde Park Memorial and there’s the Spire in Lincoln?
JT: It should be. It should be.
BW: Have you been to the unveiling of the Memorial Spire in Lincoln?
JT: No. No.
BW: Did you go last year?
JT: No. No.
BW: So, you —
JT: I don’t think that should have been built in London. It should have been built in Lincoln.
BW: Well, the Memorial in Green Park was unveiled a few years ago but they are, they have unveiled a Memorial Spire at Canwick Hill which is what the Bomber Command Centre are responsible for. Have you, have you seen that? Have you been?
JT: No.
BW: No.
JT: I haven’t. No.
BW: But it’s in, and certainly I’m sure you’d agree it’s in the right place. You know, it’s —
JT: Oh, it is. Yeah.
BW: So, there’s a spire which is the height of a Lancaster’s wingspan and it has memorial walls made of steel situated around it. And that’s where the Centre will be built. The Chadwick Centre which will house the digital archive which, you know, this information is going to go into. But you can —
JT: I don’t know if I’ll ever get over to Lincoln now.
BW: Well if you do it’s, it’s worth seeing.
JT: Yeah.
BW: They had a, they had a beautiful unveiling ceremony last year and a flypast. Unfortunately, the Lancaster couldn’t make it but they got the Vulcan instead. And that was, that was really special. If you do get the chance do go and have a look. So, are you, are you glad these sort of commemorations for Bomber Command are coming about now?
JT: Sorry?
BW: Are you glad these sorts of commemorations for Bomber Command are coming about?
JT: Oh yeah. I am glad. Yes. There’s, because there are so many uniques in the army and so on, and navy and they were specifically honoured. And Bomber Command, I think people regarded them as dirty words because of bombing civilians. I think that’s been a failing really.
[recording paused while John leaves the room for a moment]
JT: A while later. A few years later I went to see him. He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘The firm’s selling up. They’re merging with someone else,’ he said, ‘I’m retiring.’ So, he said, ‘Good luck,’ and all that. So, anyhow a few days later a partner from the firm came with a parcel and he gave me that. Gave me that picture. And I rang this chappy up to thank him for sending it and he said, ‘Well, it belongs to you more than it belongs to me,’ he said, ‘You did some good work for us,’ and all that and so —
BW: And that’s —
JT: He gave it me.
BW: And that’s how you acquired the picture.
JT: That’s how it came. Yeah.
BW: And so you’ve always, you’ve always got that association now with.
JT: [unclear] yeah.
BW: POS and you know.
JT: Yeah.
BT: That was good of them wasn’t it?
BW: And it’s, you know, on permanent display now in the RAF Museum.
JT: Yeah.
BW: So, that’s brilliant. So, when you, when you look back over your career in the RAF has it given you good memories, and?
JT: Oh yes. I’ve got good memories. Some good mates, and you know it was, it’s alright. It’ll be alright. Yes. I never regretted going. Yeah.
BW: We’ll move on to other things like the photographs and whatever. So, you know, for the, for the audio anyway I’ll leave it there for now. So, thank you very much for your time. For the interview. And for giving the information to the International Bomber Command Centre. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Foster Thorp
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AThorpJF160412, PThorpJF1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:38:37 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
John Thorp was born and raised in Manchester where he attended North Manchester Grammar School. At seventeen he joined the Home Guard. When he was eighteen he volunteered for the RAF with dreams of becoming a pilot. While waiting at Heaton Park to transfer to further training overseas he became increasingly frustrated with the lack of progress. When invited to volunteer to train as a gunner he decided to accept because he wanted to progress. After training he was posted with his crew to 467 Squadron at RAF Waddington. Returning from the operation on D-Day he saw the massed armada waiting to sail to the landing grounds in Normandy. On take-off to an operation there was a loud bang heard throughout the aircraft. When they returned from the target they tested the undercarriage and the wheel flew past John’s turret. They had to effect an emergency landing at Woodbridge and the pilot completed a remarkable landing.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
India
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1942
1944
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
467 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
civil defence
crewing up
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Home Guard
Ju 88
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
RAF Binbrook
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Waddington
RAF Woodbridge
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1159/11718/PTillbrookEHA1603.1.jpg
537662c74ac95ce55720fa05a8210f7d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1159/11718/ATillbrookEHA160105.2.mp3
c4544032c3a8eac3b0d330f2e10c7de6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tillbrook, Ernie
Ernest Hector Angelo Tillbrook
E H A Tillbrook
Ernest Hector Angelo Pedrazzini
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer Ernest Tillbrook (b. 1923, 188677, Royal Air Force), documents and photographs. He flew operations with 431 Squadron as a flight engineer.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Ernie Tillbrook and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tillbrook, EHA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PL: Ok. So this is Pam Locker and I’m interviewing Ernest Hector Angelo Pedrazzini.
ETP: Pedrazzini.
PL: Pedrazzini. Which was his birth name and service name but later changed to Tillbrook, at his home at xxxxx, in Hull on the 5th of the 1st 2016 at 11 o’clock. Well, Ernie, can I start by just saying an enormous thank you.
ETP: Sorry?
PL: Could I start by saying an enormous thank you to you on behalf of the Bomber Command Memorial Trust for sharing your story with us.
ETP: Very kind of you. Thank you.
PL: So if we could just start, just before we started the recording you were telling me a little bit about your father. Perhaps that would be a great place to start.
ETP: Well my father was Italian. My mother was very English. So it was a little bit of a mix up. However, my father really lived his life in the trade. Restaurant trade. Eventually, because he was a naturalised Italian rather than British he went to, in the army. The Italian army. Unfortunately, I can’t find much about what happened. All I know is that he never, hardly ever received his payments because he had enough money from England. So he paid other army people to go and take his payments. Anyway, finally he was in the retreat of Caporetto which is a well known Italian retreat at the time. And there, somehow or other, he escaped. I don’t think he escaped so much as walked out of a prison camp with about thirty thousand prisoners. From there on, being a son with insufficient knowledge of what my father was doing I found that he eventually reached Russia or the Ukraine. He reached it by eating turnips and potatoes in the field and in effect pinching them. Anyway, he finally reached the Ukraine I think and luckily got a job is all I can say in, with a very rich — what one would call a [pause] head man in a big mansion. Unfortunately — he was very happy there but and had very good food and everything but of course at that time in Russia the Bolsheviks came in. And eventually the communists as they are known now. He then left and somehow or other without passport or any means of knowledge got to Moscow. And from Moscow he eventually got to Italy and found his family. His sister and presumably other members of the family. Finally he left Italy and reached England where of course his wife, my mother, and two sons were there. I’m a son of later birth. I was born, for some reason, nine years after my brothers were there. Now, shall I go on? From there on I suppose I come to Gillette’s. My first job after I left the, sorry, the school. And I had a very nice, I really enjoyed Gillette. It was one of the best companies you could be in at the time. However being young or foolish I wanted to be like my brother who was then in the British RAF. Having said that of course my brother got thrown out of the RAF because he was part Italian. It’s a long story. He became eventually a very [pause] sommelier in the Hyde Park Hotel. From there some very prominent air marshall or something said, ‘What’s a young man like you doing in the air force.’ Or whatever. Which was a little bit foolish but anyway my brother said, ‘Well I’d like to get back. And this air marshall, whatever he was, got him back in. But funnily enough in his records there’s always a name there to tell anybody that knew that he mustn’t be posted without permission of the commandant of the place. That’s the story of my brother. He eventually got into Bomber Command of course and he was with 637 Pathfinder force. Unfortunately, in August of ’44, just before I joined a squadron, he was shot down by the German Air Force and was killed. Funnily enough his bomb aimer — by the way my brother was an observer or navigator, his bomb aimer escaped. An Australian. He escaped somehow but tragically a few weeks later he was shot by a German patrol. So, that’s the general story of my brother. As far as I’m concerned, as I say being young and brash I decided that I had to go in to the air force. I could have been in a reserved occupation at Gillette’s but oh no. Brave Ernie Tillbrook or Ernie, sorry Pedrazzini at the time had to go into the air force. I joined a place somewhere in Victoria. One of these big offices. And there I was interviewed for all sorts of things which as far as I know I passed. But my final interview was with three dear old squadron leaders sitting at a table and I thought this is alright. I’m going to get through here. But oh no. They finally found that apparently I couldn’t see far enough from my eyes. Now, I’m not sure that anybody in an aircraft coming towards me I would know, be put off by somebody coming quite near me on my eye. Anyway, that was the story. So again I should have gone back to Gillette’s but oh no. I decided I’d go in to the — an ordinary airman as a flight mechanic. Which I did. I eventually got the wonderful, wonderful promotion as a leading aircraftsman which funnily enough I was prouder of that than any other promotion I took after. Anyway, that was in Wales. I had a nice time there. Eventually somebody asked quite a few of us at the time in Cosford, would we like to become flight engineers. So of course Charlie boy here goes again and volunteers to be a flight engineer. After a long story I eventually passed out as a flight engineer at — in Wales. St Athans in Wales. And that was the end of it. Eventually of course I went to 634 Squadron up in Yorkshire and passed out as a flight engineer on the Halifax’s. There, unbelievably, being a flight engineer I joined a crew who had been flying Wimpies and things for a long time. Of course there was no flight engineer so I had to join. People sometimes say to me, ‘Oh you must have all joined and been together and worked with each other.’ Forgive the expression but that’s complete balderdash. I went in to a large room where several of the other airmen were there and eventually I saw a funny looking chap with a pilot’s wings. Dear old Don and said, ‘Do you want a flight engineer?’ He looked at me and there must have been something in my face that he liked. He said, ‘Yeah, I suppose so,’ in a real Canadian voice. And that was it. That’s how I became on Halifaxes at the beginning as the crew of, of course in those days, seven crew. So there it is. I eventually went to Croft which is a horrible place from the point of view of weather. And I can remember, if I may tell you the story, the Canadians there who allegedly were used to hard winters and lord knows what, they shivered. In fact, getting in to those terrible bunks we had they used to — one I can remember wore his pyjamas, his clothes, ordinary clothes and then his flying suit over the lot to try and keep warm. We did have a fire of some sort. One of these big fires but of course we never had enough coal. The only time we had any was when we scrounged some coal from somewhere or other. Having said all that of course I had an excellent time with the crew and as a sergeant and then I was with Halifaxes and we lived quite well. One or two odd spots which made me very nervous but we got through. Until eventually we went to Lancasters. Which of course despite the, one might say, the joy of the Halifax which seemed to be a much sturdier kite at the time we went to, on to Lancasters and I don’t know how in these days we ever transferred. Because with the Halifax we had Bristol engines and typically with the Lancaster we had Merlin engines, but that’s the time. We learned very quickly, and that was it. I completed the rest of the tour. Thirty one trips. And eventually left to go in to Transport Command on Yorks. Is that? I’ll go on?
PL: So, tell, tell me first of all what your job involved as a flight engineer.
ETP: As a flight engineer. I’m sorry. As a flight engineer I was, I was, in command. Well, I had charge of the engines with the cooperation, with the pilot who really was the one that was the master. But I would look after the engines, all the hydraulics, any other things. Flaps. Ailerons. Anything that went wrong it was my responsibility to see if I could do something. If we had a fire on board it was my responsibility, with the pilot to, to stop the engine. Hopefully. And we had a Graviner fire extinguisher, which again hopefully would stop it. We did have one accident. One of our aircraft had a fire while we were flying to [pause] I think Germany somewhere. But anyway again being press on Charlies we kept on with three engines. And my job then was to see that the petrol was in the right sequence and in the right order for carrying on with three engines. So, I think that’s basically what my job was. But, as I say, in general it was to look after the aircraft and its working throughout. Which was a job a bit different to the rest because really the pilot was the pilot and obviously controlled the aircraft. The bomb aimer was the bomb aimer. And which, by the way I often did the bomb aiming when it was in cloud. And then of course you had the navigator who for obvious — doing the navigation. The wireless operator for doing the wireless operating with various jobs of looking out for German codes. And finally those poor devils, or at least particularly the rear gunner who had the job obviously on the rear guns. I don’t know how anybody [pause] and my rear gunner was called Hal who was an excellent pianist, but however, he stayed in those things for sometimes up to nine hours in the cold. I don’t know how anybody could do that. The mid-upper gunner was in a similar position but at least he could occasionally move down fairly easily, so it wasn’t quite so bad. I think that’s the crew as I knew it.
PL: You said that in cloud you used — sometimes when there was cloud you did the bomb aiming. So why? Why was that? Why was it specifically when it was in cloud?
ETP: If you were looking for a target then sometimes the target was covered by cloud so you couldn’t really find any point of aim. So what you did — you had various things. Gee and various navigational aids and you pinpointed as near as you could by means of the navigation aids where, where the target was. Purely guess work. Sometimes of course you could already see the pause] sometimes you could already see the markers from PFF planes through the, through the haze or through the cloud but if you couldn’t really see you just bombed. What should I say? Rather in hope than anything else that you could hit through the target. So there we are. Should I go on?
PL: Please do.
ETP: I ended, as I said before with thirty two trips. We all left each other. I did see my skipper some years after but as far as the rest of the crew we never saw them again. Just as a part of it my skipper, at one time, in his usual way managed to get into a Spitfire and practice with a Spitfire. Which of course he came too close where I was flying in a Lanc on another occasion and nearly shook the living daylights out of me because he was too close. From there on I went again to some place in Victoria in London. And a chap said, ‘Ah. Just the man we’re looking for. We want you to go to India.’ That scared the living daylights out of me because India was right in the whole thing. So I said, ‘Well are you sure? I thought I was going somewhere else.’ He looked up his papers. Typical RAF and said, ‘Oh I’m very sorry. You’ll be going to Transport Command.’ So anyway.
PL: So why was that?
ETP: Pardon?
PL: Why was that?
ETP: Why what? Well it was a mix up in names and I think they just saw me. Probably didn’t even recognise Pedrazzini anyway and thought I was another chap that had come in. How should I say? A bright looking man. No. And as I say luckily much to my happiness I eventually went to Riccall in York. To train as a, further train as a flight engineer on York aircraft which was really a transport aircraft with same engines. Merlin engines. And there I did many trips to India [pause] well India, Calcutta. I’m not sure now. One’s India. One’s Pakistan. But anyway, wherever it was I went there and did several trips backwards and forwards from England.
PL: What sort of things were you transporting?
ETP: Pardon?
PL: What sort of things were you transporting?
ETP: Oh. We were transporting all sorts. Mainly service people. One trip was very nice. We had a whole load of nurses. Which was excellent. But in general it was squaddies. No. I can’t call them squaddies can I? Army personnel flying and one particular incident by the way, if I may explain it, we were flying from London — from Gibraltar to London or to, sorry, to England and over — passing over I think the Massif in France and believe it or not we were up at seven thousand feet because we couldn’t fly higher than that because of the air. No oxygen. We were flying at seven thousand feet and suddenly — boom. We fell over three thousand feet. Now the Massif must be going somewhere near four thousand feet. I don’t know. Luckily I had a New Zealand skipper who had enough strength. I mean I was hopeless. I was just stuck on the ceiling. He was able to grab the stick and eventually managed to bring it back under control. I’m not sure to this day how because I was useless. As I say I was stuck on the ceiling. My navigator was just trying to hold himself on a seat and that was it. Eventually we got back. We got back and of course the first thing was — oh by the way, in getting back the first thing we brought back a bunch of Scottish Highlanders in their, and of course they were dressed to come back. They were khaki true but with, forgive me for saying — a skirt. I don’t know what the Scots would tell me about that. But anyway —
PL: Their kilts [laughs]
ETP: And as they came up of course it was quite a sight. All their, forgive the expression again, all their skirts flew up and, mind you I didn’t have time to look to see what was happening but to cut it short we landed in Bournemouth. Somewhere near Bournemouth and of course me being, you know to, I went, I did honestly try and see some. There was one poor little squaddie at the back who got a special pass to come back to England and unfortunately the stick which holds the undercarriage when it’s still rose up and hit him. But anyway we managed to do that and we got back, and of course I got back kissing the ground and lord knows what when somebody came up and said, ‘Did you know your tail’s missing?’ Well the York had a mid-fin. And that was made of steel rods and canvas. Well that had flew off. But anyway we hadn’t noticed it obviously. And, finally, as a final story forgive me for saying this a [pause] what do we call the people that look, you know, careful you’re not stealing anything from the —
PL: Security?
ETP: Customs man. Customs man. Because we had those. Oh yes. We had those. We had to be careful. Anyway, customs man came up and took a look and said, ‘Oh you’ve had a bit of a trouble.’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘Don’t go up there.’ There was a ladder to go up. He said, ‘Oh yes. Why not?’ I said, ‘Well, just don’t go up there. It’s a bit mucky.’ Oh no. He couldn’t believe that. So up he gets and if, how do I put it, he then found that he had a handfuls of excrement from the elsan which we had, which was the only means of toilet we had in the plane had all flown up. I’m sorry about this but there it was. That was a true story. And if you customs people will forgive me we were very happy about it [laughs] but I’d better not say anymore.
PL: So, so what —
ETP: But then eventually I carried on.
PL: Can I just stop you before we move on?
ETP: Yes.
PL: Because I’m just curious to, to, what was the cause of the loss of altitude then? What caused the near accident?
ETP: Well of course most people say its, what do they call it, anyway basically it’s the downdraft of air. People say it’s all sorts of mysterious but frankly it’s a downdraft. Particularly if you’re over hilly country. Or mountainous country. You get a sudden downdraft. There’s nothing you can do and remember these kites were big things like they are today and we just went down. So down draft is the true explanation.
PL: And the, and the chap at the back who got hit by the lever from the —
ETP: Yeah the little chap, the little —
PL: Was he all right?
ETP: I call him squaddie, forgive me. Little army chap. I think he was going back special leave and he was sitting right at the back quiet as a mouse and the poor little devil — this big stick which is used to jam the undercar, wheels underneath which should be there [pause] he just, it wasn’t fixed and it just came up and turned around and hit him. Not too badly I think but obviously we had to take him back to the medics. I think that’s it.
PL: So losing the tail fin. That was part of dropping so —
ETP: Well the York — the Lancaster as you know had two whatevers, sorry about this, had two but for the York, to give it more stability it had this centre fin which is only a canvas and whatever and of course that just ripped off. But of course I was to eager to get away. I didn’t realise it until somebody said, ‘Oh you’ve lost your tail plane.’ [laughs] Sorry. There we are.
PL: I’m interested Ernie just to go back a little bit to a couple of things that you talked about. The first thing is that you said that you were in Lancasters and you were nearly hit by your old pilot in a Spitfire. So how did that come about because you’ve told me that you were in Halifaxes?
ETP: Oh sorry.
PL: From Croft.
ETP: Unbeknown to me at the time Don Hagar, our pilot, managed to get a trip or managed to get, before he went back to Canada, managed to get a trip or joined a Spitfire squadron and so I don’t know to this day how he did it but anyway typical Don Hagar he realised that I was flying a Lanc with another pilot and of course the temptation was just too great. He just swept so near me. Too near for me as far as I was concerned and said, ‘Hello,’ in fact out of the cockpit.
PL: So what was the job?
ETP: I wasn’t sure I liked it at the time. Pardon?
PL: What were you actually doing?
ETP: Oh we were doing a cross country check for some reason.
PL: Right.
ETP: It was after my tour, and I was joe’d as a flight engineer to go with some other pilot to do a cross country check or something. I can’t remember now what it was but just to fly and see that the aircraft was ok and we landed back.
PL: And you nearly didn’t.
ETP: Pardon?
PL: And you nearly didn’t. You nearly didn’t. Because of the —
ETP: Oh yeah. Well that’s what I thought. He was probably further away than I thought. I thought that’s typical Don. Get out of it [laughs]
PL: How funny.
ETP: Yeah.
PL: So Ernie, what about, what about your tours. You haven’t spoken very much about the tours that you did.
ETP: The?
PL: The tour that you did.
ETP: Oh. Well in those days — 1944, one must remember that frankly it was getting towards the end of the war. Not that everybody realised it at the time. We still had great trouble. We did trips. The first trips we did were possibly in relation to the D-Day landings and we, in other words we were doing daylight trips to Calais and various French ports but of course that was in the late summer so of course there was more light then. So as I say we were doing more daylights which were allegedly were easy [laughs] but quite frankly a lot of planes, a lot of aircraft were lost at that time because the Germans had plenty of flak, you know and night fighters at the time over there. But eventually of course it began to get darker and then we started the long trips to people like, to places like the Ruhr. Castop Rauxel which is one of the petrol places. I never did a Berlin trip but one long trip we did was to [pause] sorry. Munich. Munich. That was a very long trip. Nearly ten hours. Which was pretty tiring as you can imagine. Funnily enough there was raids on Munich before which we weren’t in, and they had terrible time. They were shot down, a number of them. But rightly or wrongly by the time we got to Munich there was hardly any defence at all. I think the people which I suppose one might say, poor people then but that never occurred to me as such. We, we bombed from about nineteen thousand, twenty thousand feet and had hardly any flak at all ‘til we came back. Then it got a bit dodgy as we got into Germany deep and of course the fighters started to come up. I think once we were hit by flak. I was very nervous. Hit by flak but as I say really didn’t have a scratch. The only thing was of course, typical RAF, having done all these daylight raids that was considered to be much easier than going to Germany and all the rest of it, which is a load of typical RAF bosh. Anyway, instead of doing thirty trips, which was enough, they made us do thirty two trips. And why? Because some boffin or other in the RAF decided that we wouldn’t just get a number of points for a trip. We would get a point in order of the trips. In other words a trip to France would only be two points. A trip to Germany would be three points etcetera etcetera. So then that is why we did thirty two trips and those two trips made me very nervous at the end. But again, I got through alright so, and as I said just now lucky enough to get onto transport command. Which is quite hairy in its own way. Shall I explain?
PL: Yes. Please do.
ETP: We used to land in Libya. Castel Benito. That was our first landing. From Castel Benito we went to Egypt. From Egypt we went to a place called Shaiba in the desert. And from Shaiba we’d land in Karachi. Which is by another name now which I’m not sure. Is it Mumbai or something like that? Anyway, that was Karachi and sometimes we went over to Calcutta. I landed in Calcutta once just before the monsoon and that was a most horrible experience. There was no water. There was nothing. But, anyway, I got over that. And of course at the time there were a lot of riots you had to be careful of particularly in Calcutta. Because as you know the Indian and Pakistan people began to riot. Mostly amongst themselves rather than to the Raj. I eventually made a trip, oh yes, that was a trip worth knowing. If I can think of the name. No. Forget that bit. I’ve forgotten it. It out in the Atlantic Ocean. It’s a holiday place now.
PL: The Canaries or [pause] the Canaries or something like that.
ETP: The Azores.
PL: The Azores.
ETP: Yes. The Azores. That was rather interesting. We landed in the Azores. You had to find it. If you weren’t careful you’d miss it. Anyway we found it there and the strange thing was that as we were going in our van to the airport where we were staying for the night — the big red crosses on the doors. And of course in those days of course it was suffering from disease. Disease which I’ll think of later. Anyway, that was —
PL: Not the plague.
ETP: The good thing about the Azores, sorry is what I was, we were all to bring back all sorts of goods free of custom. Forgive me for saying but particularly silk stockings for the ladies. Anyway, there you are. That was our one trip to the Azores. And that was it really.
PL: So what were you — why were you going to the Azores?
ETP: For some, I think they had a base there for something. Partly an air force base but I think it was also an army base. And presumably went out to do food or whatever, every so often. I think we did have, yes we had, we were loaded with big crates of food and mail and stuff like that which we took back to the Azores.
PL: Fantastic.
ETP: Now, you carry on.
PL: Now, something else I wanted to, just before we move on from your, from the tour that you did was there anything else that you wanted to talk about your tour. Any particular experience.
ETP: The what? Sorry.
PL: About your tours. Your thirty two trips. Anything that you wanted to —
ETP: Well I’d like to but typically, you know, we went through the tour. Basically we escaped without a scratch but of course we had one or two nasty trips in, I think it was Castop Rauxel where the flak got us and its very frightening. I think I was in a Halifax at the time. It’s very frightening to hear all the shrapnel tinging against the side. Oh — one beautiful trip we had, if I may put it that way, was to Norway. One of the big towns in Norway. And we went from here which was England obviously and Don was Darlington sorry, well near Darlington. At Croft. And we flew at a level of I suppose about three, three thousand feet all the way. It was lovely. It was a sunny day. And you could see all the Lancasters, no, sorry they was Lancasters at the time, we could see all the Lancasters going across, and our poor bomb aimer, our skipper was a bit of a devil, said to the bomber, ‘Hey, come out here. Have a look at this.’ Well I was already looking. I could see what it was. But this devil of ours, Don, the pilot he must have been almost at sea level because you could almost see the spray coming from the propellers. Well, of course when poor old McKenzie, the navigator came out of his little hole, hut and looked out in to the sea it scared him like nothing on earth. He quickly got back and said, ‘You’re too low.’ Which wouldn’t have been much help anyway. But anyway we weren’t too low and suddenly as I say the fantastic flight and seeing everybody rise up to about ten — ten or twelve thousand feet and we bombed Stavanger or somewhere in Norway. Unfortunately, the tragedy was we, well bombed it because it had various factories and things on it but unfortunately one of the bombs and I don’t know whose, I hope to God it wasn’t ours, hit a school. One can only say It was part of war I suppose but it was very tragic. Other than that it was one of the wonderful, most wonderful trips I ever had in a Lancaster at the time. Yes, I’d love to say we were very brave and we were shot all over the place but quite frankly apart from when one aircraft, one engine failed we had a pretty good trip. Sorry about that [laughs] I’d like to think of all the others but I’d have to go through all the papers and try to think of it.
PL: No. No. That’s fantastic.
ETP: There were one or two remarks in the thing I made in the thing I made about high level of flak. Low level of flak. All sorts of things like that.
PL: So just a couple of things that I’d like to go back on that you mentioned. What are Wimpies?
ETP: [laughs] sorry. Wellingtons. My apology.
PL: Not at all.
ETP: Wimpy was taken from a cartoon in the paper showing Wimpy whatever he was and from then on of course they were called Wimpies.
PL: Fantastic. And the other thing I wanted to ask you about your, when you were in Croft what sort of things did you do in your free time?
ETP: Yes. We visited —
PL: Darlington.
ETP: Darlington. Yes. It was a very good, nice life in Darlington. Everybody was very friendly. But then I think all Yorkshire or northern people are friendly. But anyway I can remember one point we went to a cafe. And remember it was wartime. But anyway they did us well. I think we had a meal which consisted of dinner, no, what’s the first thing you have at dinner?
PL: Starter?
ETP: Starter, dinner and —
PL: Pudding.
ETP: Pardon?
PL: Pudding.
ETP: Yeah. Pudding. All on one plate [laughs] It was wonderful. Yes. I can always remember that. They really did us proud I suppose. But we did that. In general we went around. We saw York. We went to — yes we had a big ceremony at the cathedral. What’s the other cathedral?
PL: York Minster.
ETP: Yeah. York Minster but then there’s — was it —
PL: Durham Cathedral.
ETP: Sorry?
PL: Durham cathedral.
ETP: Durham cathedral. I think we had a, there was a plate put in for us. So we had various little trips like that to various places. I quite liked Darlington. It was [pause] yes but in general of course we were up in the north. And it was quite odd for the Canadians who had never been — well some had been to strange places as well I suppose. But in general I did like it there. And Croft. Well Croft was a typical out station. We had a good canteen thing there. Funnily enough, if I may say, and I hope it doesn’t upset anybody, we were with a French squadron. The Alouette. Our own squadron was the 471. The —
PL: I have it here.
ETP: Iroquois Squadron, sorry. I’ll think of it in a minute. Yeah our own squadron was the Iroquois but there wasn’t very much friendliness. There was friendliness between one or two of the people but in general there wasn’t much friendliness between the French and the Canadians. Yeah. I know they were all Canadians but you know what I mean. So, my memories, in general of Croft is going to the local farms with the young lasses. Nothing wrong with, in getting bread and onion sandwiches because there was nothing else much. And we went, you know, went out to, go off to go to a flight. We’d go along to the local farm. And as I remember two young lasses used to come in and feed us with this big hunks of bread. Lovely bread. And onion. And that got us off to a good start on the aircraft. As I say unfortunately with Croft, I’ve been around to various places — I’ll sing a song to you in a minute if I dare.
PL: Yes.
ETP: And you know I I did go around to various places and saw people but it was Yorkshire and quite honestly as a Londoner, very much, I didn’t know much of what else was going on in Yorkshire. I enjoyed what there was there but other than that. Yes. We used to sing songs. Horrible ribald songs during the time.
PL: Go on Ernie. Give me one of your ribald songs.
ETP: Dare I?
PL: Yes.
ETP: I can’t sing now. You know that. You can hear.
PL: It doesn’t matter.
ETP: Well I’ll just — it’s rather a sad one. “A flight engineer he was dying, as beneath his Lanc he did lay, to the engineers gathered around him, these last parting words did he say. Take the crank shaft out of my kidney, take the con rod out of my brain, out of my back take the cylinder and assemble the engine again.” Bom bom. Sorry about that. I told you it was a nasty one.
PL: Dear.
ETP: There was more to it than that but —
PL: Lots of black humour, lots of black humour I would imagine.
ETP: Oh very much black humour I’m afraid but that was the way it was.
PL: Of course. Of course.
ETP: We got up all the tricks you see on the films of jumping over chairs and squalor. When I — more on Transport Command. We had a lovely billet in Holmsley South. Beautiful old house. With a bar. Typical. Obviously a bar. But really when I think about it, very often on a so-called dining in night which was very formal or should have been. The bar would be swimming with beer on the floor. Everybody would be doing all sorts of tricks. Lord knows what. And then suddenly it was all stopped one day because the, what would he be, above a squadron leader. Wing commander I suppose or maybe above, came in and saw what was happening, oh no, he came in and said, ‘This much stop. You must behave like gentleman.’ And then unfortunately the squadron leader said, ‘Oh I’ll help you out, sir,’ and immediately the, he slipped over the beer and landed on his backside. Which didn’t help. After that what was called dining in nights, dining in nights were very formal. I was just lucky. Normally the lowest officer, you know, pilot officer or something would have to give the speech at the end. Thank goodness I just escaped it. Some poor little chap of a pilot officer had to give a speech. And of course they were all dressed up. Obviously we were only dressed up in our number ones but the army people would come up in their full regalia and I think the [pause] the what did they call him? Not squadron leader.
PL: Wing commander.
ETP: Wing. No. One above. Air — [pause] I’m not, anyway, let’s say the wing commander. He, he wasn’t a happy man having slipped on the beer. Oh yes. We were only allowed a sherry after that. So there we are. We became gentlemen once again. Hopefully. There we are dear.
PL: That’s wonderful. There’s two other little things I wanted to ask that are sort of personal questions really but obviously you’re, because of your nationality you — because of your nationality you’re unusual in the people that I’ve spoken to. Did you, with having an Italian name, did you experience any prejudice because of that?
ETP: Hardly any. I experienced lots more later which is, without going into it one of the reasons I changed my name. But before that? In the air force. Yes. I had one. I can remember one chap when we were all in the hut. I was only a squaddie at the time. He got a bit niggly but everybody else jumped on him anyway. So, frankly no. I never suffered any. Unless you can say, we had the typical corporals and I hated corporals in general and at that time and he [pause] what did he do? I’ve forgotten what he did now. Anyway, the corporal came in demanding something or other. So being a big head myself I said, ‘You can’t do that corporal.’ Now I was only, I think I was leading aircraftsman at the time. So naturally he stood up and said, ‘I can do what I like.’ Well, I suppose I acted as a bit of a [pause] —
PL: Lawyer. Barrackroom lawyer.
ETP: Barrackroom. Thank you and told him in no uncertain times that, God knows how I knew the names but anyway told him he couldn’t do that. So, yeah, obviously otherwise I mean I never had any trouble that I can remember. Luckily. In fact, if anything, it got me on because people you can imagine when you’re going to say about the corporal, he’d be there, we’re all on parade and he’d be saying, ‘Jones.’ ‘Smith.’ And then suddenly he’d say, ‘Ped ra zzini.’ ‘Corporal. Pedrazzini.’ ‘You?’ Because I was auburn haired, very fair, typical I suppose one could say British boy and there — Pedrazzini.
PL: Lovely.
ETP: Anyway, I got away with it.
PL: How old were you then?
ETP: Pardon?
PL: How old were you then? In 1944.
ETP: Twenty. Twenty one. Twenty. Very brave. I don’t think. Anyway, yeah, no, on the whole again I had a very good time. I was glad I went in. I was even happier because really I wanted to follow my brother so I was happier that I was a flight engineer. But as I say before that I had quite a good time. I suppose if I’d have been lucky I would have eventually become a corporal. Lord help me. But anyway, you know, I got — I eventually got my sergeant. Obviously when, you automatically got that. And then, luckily in the Canadian I got flying officer. Pilot officer and flying officer. Very brave [laughs]
PL: You mentioned, you mentioned you brother who of course you sadly lost. But you said you had two brothers.
ETP: Yes.
PL: What did your other brother do?
ETP: Jimmy? Funnily enough he was in the Savoy hotel. He was a chef. A trainee chef in the Savoy hotel. The story goes that, in fact somewhere I’ve still got a bronze medal of the competitions they did. But rumour has it that he would have got a silver or a gold medal but two chefs or two trainee chefs were on the same thing and the trainee chef allegedly overcooked or left it on and blistered the fish that my brother had. But he died unfortunately. He was only thirty one. He was very young. Shame really. My other brother was in Clapham College which was a very high college. It was a Catholic college at that time. I’ve heard some of the tricks he got up to [laughs] but I won’t repeat them. But anyway he was very good and of course he could speak perfectly French and Italian. Which was really the tragedy when he got shot down. And yes, he — I think I’ve always regretted of course losing two brothers. Although one was ten years older and one was nine years older than me. Because I suppose the gap was when my mother, when my father went back to Russia and things. I’m not sure. If you work out the dates it all looks a bit odd but anyway yeah. It was a shame really.
PL: So how did your, how did your parents meet?
ETP: Ah. Believe it or not. In the catering. There was a place in Hyde Park. A very big restaurant. And it’s still there I think. It’s a bird sanctuary and something there now. Yeah. Well way back it was one of the places to parade around. I’m talking. I mean I didn’t know them but anyway way back. My mother was a Devon lass who for obvious reasons I suppose came to London which they all did if they could and met my father. And that was how they met. My mother of course in those days immediately stopped working. And my father went on to places like Oddonino’s, the Cafe Royal. All sorts of places like that. Places I can’t even think of now. Yeah it’s quite — my brother went. He was in a very good position. As I say you may have not heard of the Embassy Club which was with the old Prince of Wales and all that lot and the [pause] it’s gone. The chap who was in India. In charge of India. British chap. Anyway —
PL: Mont?
ETP: Got it? He was killed by the IRA.
PL: Was it Montgomery?
ETP: No. Not Montgomery.
PL: No. No. I always get them muddled up.
ETP: Anyway, anyway, he was killed by the IRA.
PL: I know who you mean.
ETP: Pardon?
PL: I know who you mean.
ETP: Yeah.
PL: Yes.
ETP: All that crowd. Him. The Prince of Wales. The old Prince of Wales. They were all in that crowd. My father used to hate them because they couldn’t leave until the last one had drunk his whatever. So it was pretty rough for people in a way but anyway that was all part of it. Silly. Isn’t it?
PL: Yes.
ETP: Mountbatten.
PL: Mountbatten hurray.
ETP: Mountbatten.
PL: I’m so glad you got it Ernie. I’m so glad you got it. I was wracking my brains.
ETP: Well as you can see I have lapses. I keep telling everybody when I can’t think of something. I say, ‘I’ll give you a ring at 2 o’clock at night and tell you what it is.’ Oh dear. I’m talking too much.
PL: Moving on, moving on to after the war. After you’d finished your service what happened to you then?
ETP: I went back to Gillette’s. By the way I’d been a, what did they call it? Jack of all trades and master of none I suppose. Yeah. I went back to Gillette’s but I felt then I couldn’t get on with my learning. You know my —
PL: Your training.
ETP: You’ve got to realise a lot of people had stayed in Gillette’s and they were getting this and that. Probably me but I thought I wasn’t getting there. So believe it or not I was a grocer. Now, this was in the, a grocer when there was rationing and everything so I made money. I was with a so called friend. Unfortunately. And we had a shop and eventually we got another shop. But it just didn’t work out. And it’s rather funny, just to, not to bore you but as far as I — we used to take three hundred pound a week. Now, that sounds ridiculous now. But in those days it was and I know when I got there and it must have been my wonderful voice or something we made four hundred pound a week. Which was a lot of money. Anyway, that’s it all ended pretty tragically. So believe it or not I went back to St Thomas’ Hospital. And I was a, I suppose they’d call it a technician now. In the early days of electronics. Yeah. So —
PL: How interesting. And you, are you able to tell me about your wife?
ETP: About?
PL: Your first wife.
ETP: Yes. That was a bit unfortunate. I lived in something buildings in Lambeth and let me say first of all I should never have left the air force. That was the tragedy. And anyway, yes, she was in the army or whatever they called it. What do they call them?
PL: In the WAAF. Was she in the —
ETP: Not the WAAF. The army part.
PL: Oh sorry.
ETP: Anyway, it doesn’t matter.
PL: I can’t remember.
ETP: She was that. So I don’t know. It all went wrong soon after. We went, we went through the Blitz. I went through the [pause] she was a warden, I was, no I wasn’t a warden I was a messenger or something. I was what? Nineteen. Eighteen nineteen. We went all through that. We had a fairly happy time but it just didn’t work out. Unfortunately we had two children. Which I’ve got two children now. Well not unfortunate. One’s a vicar and one’s a vicar’s wife. So what more could I ask?
PL: Absolutely.
ETP: I’m hoping I can get a good [laughs] no. No. I mustn’t say that [laughs] yeah. So yes I don’t know what to say really. I was probably a bit of a snob. Probably. And it just didn’t work out. There was further complications to which I can’t really go into it.
PL: No. no. difficult times. Let’s move on from that because that’s your personal, personal story.
ETP: Yeah.
PL: Going back to — I’m really interested to hear about your experience during the Blitz.
ETP: During the Blitz.
PL: Yes.
ETP: Oh wonderful. I was in Lambeth as I told you. Every so often we were showered with incendiaries. We had a big church. Unbelievable. It’s still there. Most of it. With a huge tower. Have you ever been down to near Waterloo? Well if you look through Kennington Road.
PL: My son lives on Kennington.
ETP: Pardon?
PL: My son lives on Kennington Road.
ETP: Really. He must be a rich man then.
PL: He’s not. He’s in a room [laughs] anyway tell me about —
ETP: Anyway, yeah. Well, your son will know it. There’s a big tower. It was an American built tower and at the top it had stars and stripes or something. And you’ll never believe it. Our warden’s post was underneath that lot. And well, we did the usual. Every night around about 5 o’clock [brrrr] thing and we used to dive in to there. And I, as a, I don’t think I was a warden. No. I was some sort of messenger or something. And there was this steeple, the huge steeple as I say but also there was a wooden steeple and that just went up in flames one day. A bomb hit. I was in, we were all in the shelter, again ridiculous really, when you think about it. One good bomb there the whole lot would have gone. And we were there one day and we were all trying to sleep as you did. And suddenly — boom. Right opposite there was a bomb. Luckily it was a small bomb. Of course brave Mr Tillbrook, no, Mr Pedrazzini at the time, came along and a chap got up and panicked completely. I remember it to this day. I don’t know how this happened, ‘Stop everybody,’ that was me. Stopped the whole lot. Because there was quite a crowd. There was two shelters. One here and one. And that stopped. As I say other than that one of our friends or at least he was a warden at the time. An older man. He went out into the middle of the road , playing about and suddenly he was surrounded by incendiaries , yeah at the time he was sort of dancing, ‘Look at me.’ You know playing about and he said, came around. The other thing was we had a rather —
PL: What happened to him?
ETP: Pardon?
PL: What happened to him?
ETP: He was alright [laughs] he got through. We went into this so-called shelter which was only a church entrance and luckily no big bomb hit it. Incendiaries hit it but no big bomb. We were saved on the whole thing because the people — wardens and myself and things like that we were able to take all the incendiaries away. Or see that we were. Used to cover them with sand or something [laughs] terrible. And they were all up in the church there but luckily we managed to get them all and save the whole place otherwise like all the other churches around it would have gone up in smoke. St George’s Church which was my Catholic church is St George’s Cathedral actually which is just along from Kennington we thought oh this is great nobody’s been hurt during the weeks. But suddenly May the 10th my birthday we had the biggest raid. One of the last raids luckily. The biggest raid And I think every church except this one went up in flames. So I got married in the place near the church because that had gone up in flames. So, Bishop Amigo Place it was called. But that was it. Another thing — I’m not boring you with all this am I?
PL: Not at all.
ETP: Another thing was in Lambeth which I think was [pause] not like Kennington Road. The next road. Westminster Bridge Road I think. There was a, what were commonly called a doss house. You know. You may have heard of them. Which is a great place. A lot of army people used to come in from Waterloo Station. Go there for a — I don’t remember how much it cost. A few shillings a night. But forgive me for saying but one of things, every man had, what can I call it? A pee pot. Sorry.
PL: A jam jar.
ETP: I can’t think of the other name for it. A gazunder some people used to call them. And anyway, a Hermann Goering bomb landed right in the middle of the place. It didn’t explode. It imploded. And the whole place, again, I’m sorry but, I can always remember we went — it was Christmas. It was one Christmas and my brother and I had been to sleep. We thought brave boys, we’d been sleeping in the house. The old house we had. What happened there? There was suddenly a [voom]. Anyway, we got up. Couldn’t see a thing ‘til we got around the corner and there was the old doss house. Whatever it was called. Quite a big place. And I’m sorry about this but it was surrounded by pots. As I say it had imploded rather than exploded which was probably lucky in many respects and it did affect, it was called Lambeth North Station and it affected there. It was so deep. It was a big Hermann Goering thousand pound bomb or something. I’m laughing about all this. It wasn’t very funny at the time. Anyway, I was ok.
PL: So all the pots were outside.
ETP: Yeah. I don’t know why. I’ve got a picture of them all sort of —
PL: How weird.
ETP: I don’t know why it did that. Where they went, but — and for months I was in the shelter and for months after people were coming from all sorts of places asking if they knew of [pause]. And of course it was almost impossible to know who was there and who wasn’t. I think there was some sort of record when you went in but —
PL: And presumably they were all lost.
ETP: Yes. Most of them were lost. Yes. I think most of them that were in there were lost. I can’t remember anybody. Excuse me. That got out particularly. But it was all a bit hazy at the time. There we were. You know. You can imagine. We got — suddenly saw this big crater.
PL: Yeah.
ETP: Anyway, there it is. But funnily enough all around wasn’t too bad. If it had exploded it would have devastated the whole place. But it imploded. Very deep implosion. So sorry about this. I’m boring you.
PL: Did you, did you — no. It’s absolutely fascinating. Did you —
ETP: By the way, I did say your son was probably a rich man and you said he wasn’t. Do you know where I lived in Lambeth Road which is a little bit away, they want one million something for a house. God knows what we paid. My mother paid. Or father paid for it. A few hundred probably. But there you are. That’s the way it’s gone.
PL: So during that time, during the Blitz.
ETP: Sorry.
PL: During the Blitz.
ETP: Yeah.
PL: Were you afraid, were you excited? Were you. How was it as a young man being involved with this extraordinary event?
ETP: Frightening but quite exciting in its way. As I say regular thing 5 o’clock at night. Around about five. Sometimes a bit later. Sometimes a bit earlier. The old [brrrr] the old things would go and my mother, my mother racing along. And suddenly as we were racing along a bomb came down. Not that near actually. I can always remember this, my mother laid flat on the ground and I think I laid flat but whatever but nothing happened because we were much further away than we thought. In a way we were lucky around about that time because we were right near the train station. One or two nasty places but on the whole we didn’t get too bad considering we weren’t quite in the middle. I mean the middle was the east end and that place but we had — I can remember oh sorry, I mustn’t, you’re getting me —
PL: No. No. Keep going.
ETP: We went to the pub. 10th of May. Why not? In I go. With my wife at that time. We were all in this pub and [brrrr brrr] off it went. So we thought being very keen citizens we’d better go out and help and that was the 10th of May which was the worst blitz of the lot in that area. Loads of — you could stand out and see fires everywhere. So there we are. But again, being young you don’t see or take much notice of half these things. It’s all a great adventure. Sorry dear.
PL: So did you, how often did you — how often were you on duty?
ETP: Well, in effect, every night. We had the warden’s post we used to go in. The chief warden was there. He, by the way, was a communist [laughs] but anyway, yes.
PL: Is this the same one that was dancing in the street?
ETP: Sorry.
PL: Was it the same one who was dancing in the street?
ETP: Oh no. No. No. No. No.
PL: That was another one.
ETP: Oh no. No. No. No. He was a very, I think he was a, no he wasn’t a docker. He was, he had something to do with the docks. Righting something or other. No. He was a nice chap actually. No, laughing his head off like an idiot and suddenly realised he was in the middle of all these incendiaries.
PL: So you went —
ETP: He got away with it.
PL: So you worked at Gillette’s all through the day.
ETP: Yes.
PL: And then you went and did the wardening at night.
ETP: Afraid so.
PL: So when did you finish?
ETP: No.
PL: When did you sleep?
ETP: The best time was when I was with the Middlesex Home Guard with my rifle. Guarding the factory. Gillette’s. Lovely factory. And one night I was in the, not the workshop, it was the [pause] in effect it was the -- what do you call it, anyway I was there in the, we had a little office place where I used to make things. It was lunchtime and I fell asleep. Lovely. [Knock knock] next minute. ‘Did you realise you were asleep Ernie.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Why were you asleep?’ I said, ‘I’ve been up all night.’ He said, ‘Why have you been?’ It was unbelievable. Ten miles away you didn’t know a thing about what was happening. I mean occasionally a bomb would come but you really didn’t know.
PL: So where was the Gillette factory then?
ETP: Hounslow. Near Hounslow.
PL: Right. So it was sort of really that bit out of London.
ETP: Sorry?
PL: It was that bit out of London
ETP: Oh yes. Roughly ten miles out of London. Made all the difference. You still got bombs occasionally here and there. Oh what’s the name of the place? Have you been that way at all?
PL: Not really.
ETP: No.
PL: So how —
ETP: The Great West Road.
PL: Right.
ETP: Along there. Yeah. As I say —
PL: So how did you get in and out? Was there a problem getting home and out to work? How was travelling?
ETP: I used to get the train.
PL: Right.
ETP: To Waterloo.
PL: Right. So that wasn’t affected by the bombing?
ETP: Pardon?
PL: Was the train not affected by the bombing?
ETP: Not usually. Occasionally it did because obviously being in London but then if that happened I’d stay in Gillette’s. Because I used to sleep very often at night.
PL: Right.
ETP: As a Home Guard with my rifle.
PL: Right. So was that an additional job?
ETP: Hmmn?
PL: That was an additional job was it?
ETP: Oh yes.
PL: So you had three jobs. You were a warden.
ETP: Yeah.
PL: And you were in the Home Guard.
ETP: As I say more a messenger than a Home Guard.
PL: Right.
ETP: And then I went to Gillette’s and had a job and then I don’t know every day or two I was with my rifle. I even got a medal for shooting then. In Gillette’s.
PL: Goodness.
ETP: Wonderful place. Anyway, yeah, that was it. Yes, so I suppose we did have three jobs.
PL: So did you have any interesting times in the Home Guard?
ETP: Well at that time we were in Hounslow. Near Hounslow. I don’t know what, anyway, near Hounslow Barracks. The only thing I can remember. We used to do practices you know. And I can always remember one day we had an exercise with the guards of all places, of all things and there we are all night with our rifle or machine gun or whatever we had. All there in a ditch. And suddenly the guards came over. I can remember them now. They came over the top of a power [unclear] factory. Came over the top and I said, ‘You’re dead.’ I won’t tell you what he said. But he said something like, ‘Bloody well get off.’ [laughs] and that was it. No, we used to do exercises in Hounslow. And we’d do exercises at Gillette’s. But more, we used to have fire guards. Do you remember? Fire guards. Well — and we had a big tower. Gillette’s, if you can see it, had a big tower with a clock in it. There used to be an old boy in there. I’ve forgotten his name. He used to be in there at washing, and they had maps and they used to get information by telephone which way the plane was, the bombers were coming. And they used to make us sit in, and if they came to near they would sound the alarm and the whole factory would shut down. Yeah. Making thousands of blades a day. Very good.
PL: So that was, so Gillette’s. So what was Gillette’s doing? What was the factory making? Did you say?
ETP: Basically razor blades.
PL: Right.
ETP: You know every army man needs a razor blade.
PL: Yes. Absolutely. Of course. Of course. I just wondered if it had changed to other sort of war work.
ETP: Well yes it did. At one time I was making some sort of thing for an aircraft. Oh I know what it was. It was the, not the Lancaster. Not the Halifax. The Stirling. It was built like a flipping boat. Horrible thing it was. Although I’ve met some Stirling people and they’d kill me if I said that. Yeah. And it had hydraulics and things of all sorts. As far as I was concerned I thank God I never went in one. But anyway a lot of people did and a lot of people famous for it. What was I saying? Yes. Oh yes. We made parts. One of the things was a hydraulic pump thing. And of course you had to get down to minus temperatures to test it. Well, if you’ve ever seen the lark we used to get to try and get up to test this thing. I don’t think we ever did actually. But there it was so off it went. Somebody hoped it worked.
PL: So what did you do?
ETP: Pardon?
PL: What did you do? How did you do? What did you do to test them?
ETP: Well we used to have a tank with ice and everything in it. That’s as far as I can remember. We tried. I suppose nought degrees would be the maximum we could get down to. I think that may have been the test and you just hoped for the best after that.
PL: Absolutely.
ETP: They were, they were a literally, as far as I can remember they were literally built like a boat rather than like an aeroplane but that’s my opinion of it. Well, I can’t say a lot more. We made one or two things during that time in Gillette’s. Made a little, I can’t really remember. Not a lot because the main industry for them was the razor blades because as I say every personnel wanted razors. Well apart from the navy with their beards. They wanted razor blades. And they were flown all over the world. Given all over the world as well. So yeah. I loved it there. Had a good canteen. Clean. I don’t know if you’ve seen some of the factories in England. Terrible. They were. Maybe a bit better now. I wouldn’t work in them for love nor money. Yeah. But anyway there you are. That’s it dear.
PL: So one, my last question is going back to Bomber Command and being involved with Bomber Command. What did you think about how Bomber Command was treated after the war?
ETP: How we were treated generally? Well first of all remember we were pretty young. Croft, I suppose, looking at it was a bit rough. But then this was general then. I mean who had enough heat and light and all the rest of it. But other than that I had, as far as I can remember, I had a pretty good time. How were the RAF people treated?
PL: I suppose in terms, I was thinking more in terms of the perception of Bomber Command’s role in the war.
ETP: Ah. To be blunt we didn’t think of it. We had a job to do. We didn’t like the Germans and especially when he heard some of the, later when we heard some of the things they were doing. So we didn’t like the Germans. We were there to do a job. A very nervous job at times. It was only after the war, later that we saw some of the atrocities that they got up to. I think that caused us more trouble. But then of course as I say now in general in the RAF if you were in any sort of position like a sergeant you weren’t treated too badly. A bit rough at times but not too badly. I still remember that place at Darlington with that big food. No. So that was, it had the old fashioned — I say army perspective of how people should behave which got a bit lost in the end. It still got a lot of discipline which you have to have really. It was very disciplined. I know I was too good to ever get too bad but probably I deserved it sometimes. The things we got up to. I did a court martial for one chap. They were pretty rough on the, with the WAAF and the men if there was any mixing. Taboo. It happened of course. But it was very much taboo and I got caught in the — I had to go to a court martial. This chap I was unfortunate. I was there one night with the WAAF sergeant. Ooh no she was more than a sergeant. WAAF officer. And we were doing the rounds to see that everybody was behaving. And this idiot came up and tried to be funny. He was going too go out. He was going to take his girl back. Well you don’t do that sort of thing. You might like to and probably many did but you didn’t, you didn’t profess it. So of course he got caught. And I hated it. Obviously we turfed him off and the squadron leader or whatever came in and I had to do a court martial. And I think the chap [pause] have you heard of LMF. Lack of moral fibre. I think he was eventually. He was an officer I don’t know? To this day I can’t remember what grade he was but anyway he went too far. He was out. Lack of moral fibre’s an interesting one. A lot of people are against it now but in effect at the time say for instance I did one trip, or didn’t do it. Was all trained up to go and do a trip and I suddenly got nervous or too frightened. Well then you’d be — even if you were an officer, or a sergeant in particular you were taken down to nothing again. So from that point of view it was pretty tough. I can always understand it because I suppose one could say you didn’t realise what you were getting into. But on the other hand you did a lot of training. You knew something of what could happen and so you just said, ‘I don’t want to go anymore.’ And of course with all that training and everything it was LMF. Which was a bit of a fatal word. You still read about the paper about how bad it was. But to a great extent I’ve got sympathy with the fact of the hierarchy. I don’t know.
PL: And how do, how do you feel about the fact that it’s taken so long for Bomber Command to be recognised?
ETP: Sorry.
PL: What do you think about the fact it’s taken so long for Bomber Command to be recognised for its contribution?
ETP: One word. Disgusting, I suppose. Yes. We were killing people. I never thought about it on a whole. I have occasionally thought God I wouldn’t like to be down there with those poor devils. But no, you were doing a job. You were told that it was them or us to a great extent. I never really felt any conscience of bombing people. Because they were bombing us you see. So it’s a bit of a tricky one. I know some people thought very much about it after but Dresden as you know. Everybody says Dresden. Well to me that’s a farce because Dresden wasn’t just a place with pretty pictures of people and these things there. They were just as much in the war with making things as anybody else was. What do I say? I was never sorry for them but I can have sympathy with them. In other words I wouldn’t have like to have been underneath them at the time. I think it was a farce because we know, if anybody had any truth, that Dresden there was the Russians wanted to come in there with Dresden. Obviously Dresden was a place with manufacturing so it was a natural target. And of course since they were escaping from the, from the Russians they were coming across in to Germany or into the, what do you call it, coming across into the south. That’s not the word I want but anyway I think it’s unfortunate of course there were a lot of refugees as such but then again what do you do. For all you know those people that were coming could have been escaping from the German army — or from the Russian army anyway. And the Germans, German soldiers and things coming in. So it’s a bad choice I know but at the time I never even, I wouldn’t have considered it if I’d been there. I didn’t actually have to go because it had ended. The main thing. And it was only afterwards. I’m sorry I’m going on a bit. I don’t know quite what to say.
PL: No. Not at all.
ETP: I was never really let me put it this way I was never sorry and nor could I understand all this nonsense about Dresden. As far as I was concerned it was another town. Whether that town should have been hit is another matter. Anyway, that’s about it dear.
PL: Well that’s fantastic. And I guess my last question is, Is there anything else that you want to add to this?
ETP: Probably.
PL: Wonderful story that you’ve told me.
ETP: I’ve been talking too much anyway.
PL: Not at all.
ETP: I can’t really think of anything. If I think of anything else. I told you about Norway. That was one in a strange way a beautiful trip despite what happened at the end.
PL: Well that’s —
ETP: I often, I often used to look out when we were over Germany or somewhere and you would see all these flares and everything. Quite a sight if you could put your mind to looking at it. Once or twice I was brave enough to look out. The navigator and bomb aimer very seldom looked out anyway. And as I say I did a lot of bombing myself rather than the bomb aimer because in those days with the, all the new techniques and things one could do that. I think that’s about it dear.
PL: Wonderful. Well can I just end by thanking you very much indeed on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre.
ETP: I hope I haven’t gone too far with it.
PL: You’ve told us an absolutely fascinating story. Thank you very much indeed.
ETP: Thank you.
[recording paused]
PL: So Ernie having switched the recorder off you then told me a wonderful story about your father who was — and his role in the war.
ETP: Yes. My father, I was going to say funnily enough but it wasn’t funny at all. When the Italians walked in to the war a [paused] he was interned but luckily he was never taken to the Isle of Man or anywhere as most of them did. He then, imagine, with two sons in the air force my father wasn’t allowed a radio. He wasn’t allowed a bike. And he wasn’t allowed to go beyond, I think, a five mile radius. And I must tell you now against all the laws if the radio was there my brother and myself used to come in and turn on the radio because my mother wasn’t allowed either. ‘Cause she again was not allowed. She was Italian you see because of her marriage. Yeah. So finally he had no job. Some of the, oh I must be careful, some of the people in the restaurants wouldn’t allow people like my father to work, so he had no job. He had to go on the dole which he’d never been on before. I think it was still called the dole. I don’t know. Anyway, he finally got a job, sort of doing odd jobs in the big church which I — and the church was actually, not Wesleyan. I think it was either Wesleyan or something. It was an American based church. And so he got to work. He used to do odd jobs in the church and acted as warden I suppose. In his best Sunday suit, very well dressed, he used to greet the congregation and I still picture to this day, in a Wesleyan or whatever church it was greeting all the congregation with an Italian accent. I thought that was marvellous. Anyway, he was very happy for a time until a bomb hit quite near and the water gushed in and his lovely boiler which he’d got in pristine condition, a pretty old boiler, he’d got in lovely good condition he got drowned, his boiler got drowned because it was below the ground. It was drowned in this boiler room. I think he cried his eyes out with that. Anyway, eventually it was pumped out and he got back.
PL: And he did that for the whole of the, did he do that — he stayed in the same place until the end of the war. Until you came home.
ETP: No. Eventually remember the Italians gave in in 1944. Something like that. So he was able to go back into the restaurant business. Oddonino’s I think it was at the time which you may know was a big restaurant. Well not very big but was a very well-known restaurant of the time. And later on unfortunately he died of so called nephritis which is a disease of the kidney. As far as I knew he wasn’t a big drinker. He like his beer and strangely enough although he knew Italian wine like the back of his hand he used to love a pint of beer.
PL: How lovely.
ETP: Except when he was in Devon one day and at the local Crown or Cushion or whatever it was called. No, the three, four — the Seven Stars Hotel I think. A small hotel I think in [pause] anyway. In Devon. He was convinced to go in because it was so much cheaper to go and drink a pint of cider. Well unfortunately he drank two pints of cider which he thought was quite tasty and quite good. But he went to bed and sometime in the afternoon and never got up until about 7 o’clock at night. Yeah. So there. He got back into the hotel trade as I say. But at sixty five he caught and in those days of course there weren’t the same things for kidney disease and the rest of it. I think they gave him pills or something to try and cure him. Not cure him but help him and it was rather tragic. Just went on for a few months and that was the end of it.
PL: Well thank you for sharing that additional story with us Ernie.
ETP: I hope its, there’s probably more I could have told you.
PL: It adds more colour to your story. Thank you very much.
ETP: It’s a pleasure.
[recording paused]
PL: So, this is Pam Locker again making another recording with Ernie Tillbrook on the 5th of the 1st 2016. There was just a couple of additional things that Ernie was going to add to his story. So Ernie you were telling me a couple of stories about bombing. You go ahead.
ETP: About?
PL: The first one was about taking off.
ETP: Oh yes. Yeah. Oh yes. Oh dear. The most frightening time I ever had. We were coming in to land from somewhere and my dear skipper, Don, overshot the runway. So the natural thing to do was wheels up and off. Back up. Unfortunately, I don’t know what happened. Whether my plug came out of my hearing or what. I didn’t hear the order to lift up the undercarriage. So we were flying very low and as far as I can remember when I was looking out the side, nervous as hell, I remember we just about went over the top of a hangar. Luckily Don was quick enough to see what was happening and pulled up the undercarriage which allowed us to just miss by feet, or even inches, the hangar. I was so nervous. Partly because I thought I’d failed. Partly because it was a frightening thing to see. I know I got out of the aircraft and wouldn’t talk to anybody for some time after. To such an extent that my crew wondered what was, wondered what was wrong with me. That’s it.
PL: Terrifying. And then the other story you were going to tell me was about the island.
ETP: Oh yeah. One of the things which, how can I put it, was exciting for me but probably wasn’t very exciting for the poor devils that were on the island. As far as I know they were a load of army personnel manning some guns which had to be destroyed because they were in the way of the Mediterranean in general. So, we all came along at about ten thousand feet. Can you imagine a great load of Lancasters all with bombs flying over this poor little island called Ile de [Cezerre?]. No. Ile de Cezembre and all I can remember is looking out over the side. Our gunner, rear gunner was having a wonderful time shooting everything he could see. And when I looked out there was a poor, what I presume was some form of army personnel running like mad trying to get away, but being bombed. With bombs falling all around him and presumably obliterating the whole island. There you are. Don’t get me too far. I’ll keep thinking of stories.
PL: Thank you very much Ernie.
ETP: It’s a pleasure. Thank you for listening.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ernie Tillbrook
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pam Locker
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATillbrookEHA160105, PTillbrookEHA1603
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:45:36 audio recording
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Description
An account of the resource
Ernest Hector Angelo Pedrazzini was the son of an Italian father and an English mother. After the war he changed his name to Tillbrook. Ernie’s father escaped from a prison camp during the First World War and finding his way to Russia and employment in the pre-revolution years before escaping to Moscow and making his way back to Italy and then to his young family in England. Ernie Tillbrook was employed at the Gillette’s factory when he left school and experienced the London Blitz as a messenger before he volunteered for the RAF. He started as a mechanic before undertaking training as a flight engineer and flying operations with 431 Squadron.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-05-10
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Yorkshire
France--Cézembre Island
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
431 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
displaced person
fear
flight engineer
Halifax
home front
Home Guard
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
military living conditions
perception of bombing war
RAF Croft
sanitation
York
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Donaldson, David
David Donaldson
D Donaldson
Description
An account of the resource
309 Items and a sub-collection of 51 items. Concerns Royal Air Force career of Wing Commander David Donaldson DSO and bar, DFC. A pilot, he joined the Royal Air Force Reserve in 1934. Mobilized in 1939. he undertook tours on 149, 57 and 156 and 192 Squadrons. He was photographed by Cecil Beaton at RAF Mildenhall in 1941. Collection contains a large number of letters to and from family members, friends as well as Royal Air Force personnel. Also included are personal and service documents, and his logbooks. In addition, there are photographs of family, service personnel and aircraft. After the war he became a solicitor. The collection also contains an oral history interview with Frances Grundy, his daughter.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Anna Frances Grundy and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
2022-10-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Donaldson, D
Grundy, AF
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
17/6/42.
Hodgsonites
Charterhouse.
Dear William,
Many happy returns of the day. I wish you had a wedding every year, instead of only once. It made a very pleasant interlude. Also I've only congratulated you on your prospective parentage (or is it - hood?) rather hastily on the telephone, so please take this as a confirmatory copy. It really is a very fine show. Are you going to have it christened in a Wellington or anything comic? It should please its grand-parents immensly [sic]. I hope its an ugly infant, then it should grow up handsome. I believe we were all cherubic babies. I hope Joyce is O.K.
How are you these days? I hear from Ian that your boils have returned which is hard luck. I suppose you will be off on Ops. again soon. I've been trying
[page break]
to get into Air Crews myself, but they say that I am definitely ineligible; if I have a fair chance of a Commission, I shall go for the Royal Corps of Sigs, but I don't want to spend the war as an operator or an instrument mechanic – I'd rather foot-slog I think. Or possibly gunners. Everyone except me seems to have very definite ideas on what I'm going to do, but they don't all agree, & its rather confusing. I shall probably end up in the Sikh Pioneer Corps or something funny like that. We're being pushed through Battle Drill now, by a Coy. of the Royal Sussex who have come down to train the H.G. And very well they are doing it too. It takes up all our weekend, so we have less spare time than ever now, but it's great fun.
Love to Joyce.
Yours,
Uncle(-elect) Norman
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to David Donaldson from Norman
Description
An account of the resource
Written from school; wishes David happy birthday and congratulations on expecting a baby. Offers some banter about prospective child. Commiserates over David's health and writes about what Norman's plans and ambitions for service in the air force. Mentions current training in home guard. Additional information about this item was kindly provided by the donor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Norman Donaldson
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-06-17
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EDonaldsonGNDonaldsonDW420617
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Surrey
England--Godalming
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-06-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Frances Grundy
civil defence
Home Guard
training