1
25
140
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/119/1215/PThomasWH1501.2.jpg
745fc204912c7bac71a5523c73801932
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/119/1215/AThomasWH150711.1.mp3
b0bbf81f2421a7d15357a2b007230236
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BB: Ok Bill.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Thank you for allowing me to come into your home and interview you. It’s a real pleasure to meet with a veteran like yourself.
WT: I’ll give you, I’ll give you the bill later on.
BB: Thank you very much. Ok. What’s your birthday date?
WT: 28th January 1922.
BB: And place of birth?
WT: Redruth in Cornwall.
BB: Redruth. And did you go to school there as well?
WT: Yes I did.
BB: And you did your school certificate and all that kind of thing.
WT: I did.
BB: Ok. When did you, did you volunteer to join the RAF or were you conscripted and then decide for aircrew?
WT: Volunteered because as I said I’ve got that thing all written out. We had, in 1938 they started a flight of the Air Defence Cadet Corp.
BB: Yeah
WT: I joined that because our headmaster was an ex-fighter pilot in the First World War. And then I left school to start work so I couldn’t carry on with the flight but I managed to find the town flight and joined them
BB: And what was your pre-war occupation?
WT: In local government.
BB: Ok.
WT: On the health department side.
BB: And what attracted you to wanting to volunteer for aircrew?
WT: I think it, it was our headmaster who was, as I say, he was a fighter pilot.
BB: The ex RAF sea pilot. Yes.
WT: Ex RAF.
BB: Yeah. Good. He encouraged you to do that.
WT: Not only do that when I, when I was working, walking down past his house, as I had to, I heard, ‘Thomas. Why haven’t you joined the ATC?’ I said, ‘Well,’ ‘It’s the school.’ ‘There’s one down the end of your road. I’ll see you tomorrow night at three.’
BB: Good. So you, you volunteered for aircrew. You obviously went for air crew selection.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they obviously graded you as, as a bomb aimer or did you go for a particular -
WT: I wanted to be a pilot.
BB: Right. And what happened with that that you couldn’t be. Were they oversubscribed or they just needed bomb aimers?
WT: No well I came out from doing the stuff. I went up to Sywell.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Tiger Moths.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Well I got twelve and a bit hours in but I never saw it
BB: And then you were scrubbed.
WT: Well I could take off. I could do everything in the air
BB: But the landing was a problem.
WT: Landing was a problem. On the little mini run, place -
BB: Yes.
WT: We had.
BB: Yes
WT: But the big one I could get in at. The chief flying instructor
BB: Right.
WT: Took me on a check and he said, ‘I’ll try my best but I don’t know what I can do,’ but he couldn’t.
BB: Anyway, so you were remustered as a bomb aimer.
WT: No. As a NavB.
BB: Oh as a Nav oh as a NavB. Ok. Right.
Other: Excuse me for just a second. Turn it off and press that to start again. Hold that down to this constant.
BB: Ok.
Other: Ok, right.
BB: So -
Other: I want to go and check on my dog.
BB: Ok. So -
Other: I’d better check on the dog in the car.
BB: Ok.
WT: Oh alright my dear.
BB: A NavB.
Do you want me to get up?
BB: A navigator bracket bomb aimer ok. Now, was that the half brevet with the B on it?
WT: No the old-
BB: Oh as the old observer. Ok.
WT: Oh yes.
BB: The flying O.
WT: That’s what I got.
BB: Right.
WT: ‘cause I went to Canada. Eventually.
BB: Oh you went, part of the old Empire Training School.
WT: I did. And I did my bomb aiming and gunnery. And then to oh I’ve forgotten what it’s called now - L’Ancienne-Lorette. And I did my navigation training there. I must have come out fairly well because I got granted a commission.
BB: Right.
WT: So the first six, we never knew which ones out of thirty two were commissioned and then I went to Prince Edward Island and we did three or four weeks special training there to go out over the sea. Navigation and all that. So -
BB: Ok.
WT: That finished.
BB: Right.
WT: Back to Moncton and that was the holding unit.
BB: Yeah.
WT: There for ages waiting to go back to England and eventually doing so. I had come over to Canada on the Queen Elizabeth.
BB: Wow.
WT: Came back on the Aquitania.
BB: Which of course had been converted to a trooper so it wasn’t very luxurious.
WT: Luxurious oh it was luxurious enough.
BB: It was enough, still luxurious.
WT: oh it was alright. And then down to the holding unit waiting to be, go somewhere. We were pushed here there and everywhere and eventually back again and told we were then going to Scotland to something, I said, ‘What is that for? Bomb aimers.
BB: Bomber aimer.
WT: So they converted us from that to bomb aiming.
BB: I see. Right. And so what time, at what date did you actually go, finish that training?
WT: Oh I can do it.
BB: Ok.
WT: Do it from here. [?]
BB: Roughly.
WT: Monckton. Harrogate. Oh back to England in November ’43.
BB: November ‘43 so -
WT: And then to Harrogate.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And then we were at Sidmouth, back to Harrogate again and eventually up to Wigtown.
BB: Oh.
WT: That was April ’44.
BB: Ok and you joined so your OTU where you crewed up. Where was that?
WT: That was down at Castle Donington in May.
BB: Castle.
WT: ’44.
BB: And was that? When my uncle was flying for 9th squadron at Bardney, an Australian pilot he did his OTU at Kinloss.
WT: Ah huh.
BB: And they threw them in to a big hangar and all the navs and the pilots and the air gunners and the bomb aimers were all in this big hangar and they virtually crewed up until they found their own crew.
WT: This is what we did.
BB: Good. So it seemed to have been an RAF -
WT: That was the way of doing it. Yes.
BB: Programme.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And it was, it was very good because each crew kind of found the people they kind of trusted to fly with and they’d ask questions like, to the pilot particularly, ‘Were you alright on your course?’ ‘What were you?’ ‘Oh I was above average.’ ‘You’ll do.’ And it was usually the navigator that found the pilot.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And once they’d got those two, ‘oh I met a bomb aimer over there. A guy I liked.’
WT: This was the way we did it.
BB: And that was exactly the same -
WT: We did it the same way.
BB: That you did it.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Ok and so you were all taking each other on trust at that stage.
WT: Sure and then we went on from there to Prangtoft sorry, Sandtoft.
BB: Sandtoft.
WT: And then Hemswell for Lanc finishing school and then I did what, I was transferred then from there to 166 at Kirmington and 166 squadron was there and we were the 3rd flight. AB. I think it was C flight. And they -
BB: And what were they flying at the time? Lancs?
WT: Well that was Lancs.
BB: Lancs. Yeah.
WT: And what they did was they they nearly burst C flight ready and then we went back actually down to Scampton.
BB: Right.
WT: As 153.
BB: Ok.
WT: And we were the first aircraft to land at Scampton ’cause they had just put the stuff in. We were the first aircraft to land there. In A Able which was somebody else’s kite anyway.
BB: Yes.
WT: But er yeah we went along the runway the lads were all waving. He said, ‘There’s mine’
BB: Now, when my uncle was on 9 squadron in ’43 of course. This was a bit later on in the war. The pilot i.e. my uncle and his navigator flew a second observer, a second crew. They went with a regular crew on a raid.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Who were about to finish their tour so the pilot and the navigator flew on that raid as supernumerary just to see what it was like.
WT: Only one. It was only the pilot went from our -
BB: Ok. Right.
WT: ‘cause he -
BB: They still did that in that place by the time you -
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They did one trip.
BB: Yeah. As a spare bod. And -
WT: That’s right.
BB: They came back.
WT: That’s right.
BB: And then got their own crew.
WT: That’s right.
BB: Was the air, was the Lancaster you had on 153 a brand new one or was it, had it been recycled?
WT: Well -
BB: From another crew?
WT: Well it was one of the, it was one of the -
BB: One of them.
WT: In fact we didn’t get I Item until about four or five and then it was regular hours.
BB: Ok.
WT: Flying. That’s what it says up there.
BB: Yeah my uncle did much the same thing. He did, he did it seemed to be a Bomber Command practice.
WT: Yeah.
BB: That they got the pilot and the nav to fly these initial sorties.
WT: Ahum.
BB: And then they were given a gash not gash but spare Lancs or –
WT; Yeah.
BB: To fly one or two trips.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: And then their own brand shiny new Lancaster arrived from the factory and they had that for the whole of the rest of their tour. My uncle’s Lancaster was called Spirit of Russia and it finished the war with a hundred and nine ops.
WT: Did it?
BB: And so it was lucky. But anyway we’re not talking about my uncle we’re talking about.
WT: Thomas.
BB: So there you are on ops.
WT: Yeah and we -
BB: With your scratch crew. Yeah.
WT: Yes and we carried on right up until well we did one on the 3rd of February ’45. No sorry the 7th of March ’45. And on the 8th we did a grand loop.
BB: Ah.
WT: Our pilot passed out.
BB: Oh.
WT: We think it was a fit and we were on our way to Castle.
BB: Ah.
WT: And we came out and [wing co Piley?] said, ‘You’ll be flying tonight’ and we said, ‘Not [so and so] likely until we know what’s happened to the skipper.’ He said, ‘You’ll be on a charge.’ I said, ‘I’ll see you there. Sir’ and left it at that.
BB: So, what, the was pilot was
WT: He -
BB: Obviously written off.
WT: Yes he was pretty.
BB: Wrtten off.
WT: He was gone. By that time they’d taken him away. By the time we’d got gathered together and he came back, tapped me on the shoulder and said, ‘It’s alright. The spare crew are going.’ so I saw him in the mess.
BB: He didn’t give you a spare pilot to fly that night.
WT: No. Well he wanted us to fly.
BB: Fly. So you didn’t do that.
WT: We didn’t go. No. We just didn’t. It was -
BB: That was your last trip?
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: So what happened then, Bruce went into hospital and eventually they realised he wasn’t coming out. They sent us home on leave and brought us back and I can’t remember whether they gave us three weeks or anyway we came back again and we did our last three with a Canadian no an Aussie pilot who’d lost his crew and had three to do.
BB: Right. Ok that -
WT: So he did three.
BB: That was usually the way.
WT: We thought we should have done one more so what we did was twenty nine and a half ‘cause we had an abortion in the middle of it.
BB: Right. Right. Ok and I gather that rather unfairly French targets counted for half.
WT: No.
BB: At that time of the war.
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: In fact the first one was Fort [Frederick Heinrich] just on the Dutch coast.
BB: Oh right. Ok.
WT: But that was a full.
BB: Ok.
WT: That was full.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They were all full.
BB: Yeah.
WT: ‘Cause we didn’t do very many French ones.
BB: No. Not at that stage. No.
WT: No. We were going out.
BB: No. No. Right.
WT: Including Dresden.
BB: Yes. Now what was you’re, ok we’ll get to Dresden later.
WT: Yes.
BB: ‘Cause it’s been quite controversial and everybody sees that as the bad thing that Bomber Command did. Um what what’s your opinion of that?
WT: My opinion is as I’ve said to many people we bombed Dresden because we, one, we were told to. But it turns out afterwards that Mr Churchill was given from the Russians three, three targets that needed to be hit, Dresden and two others. I don’t know which they were. And he was given to us, he gave them to Bomber Harris and said, ‘There’s the three. You do them whenever you think right.’ And we went on the Dresden -
BB: Yeah.
WT: Trip.
BB: Yeah Churchill gave them to Portal who was chief of the air staff.
WT: Yes and he -
BB: And Portal gave them to Harris.
WT: Yeah and Harris, Harris sent them.
BB: Just did what he was told basically.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah [?]
WT: But Harris said to us, you know, we didn’t, he chose them.
BB: Yes.
WT: He chose Dresden. Ten hours twenty that was.
BB: Yes it was a long trip.
WT: It was. And it was the best bonfire night I’ve ever seen.
BB: Yes it did. It was rather grand.
WT: But -
BB: As far as the crews were concerned –
WT: I found out afterwards and I’ve got the book saying -
BB: Yes.
WT: That Dresden was a target. It was full of troops. They were making very small arms stuff.
BB: Yeah.
WT: For submarines and things like that all scattered all over the place.
BB: Yeah it was a -
WT: So -
BB: Legitimate target.
WT: A legitimate target.
BB: Legitimate target. Yes. So that was Dresden and I think in the post war my own opinion and this is my own opinion and you know Churchill wanted to stand in the Conservative government. Labour were coming up and what we understand of labour it’s now called Labour it was a socialist government coming up and he wanted to back away from the actual how effective Bomber Command had been and um and more or less threw Harris to, to the wolves.
WT: And washed his hands.
BB: And washed his hands of it. But he did the same with Dowding after the Battle of Britain so there we go it says something about the great Churchill doesn’t it?
WT: No. I don’t, don’t respect him.
BB: No.
WT: Anymore.
BB: Anyway -
WT: Sorry.
BB: Enough of that.
WT: Go on.
BB: No. No. It’s ok but I saw Dresden on your bookcase and I thought I’d ask about it.
WT: I got it there.
BB: Now getting back to the crew.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And how you all trusted each other and had to rely on each other.
WT: Yeah.
BB: What, were there any, I mean were you scared?
WT: No.
BB: You weren’t scared.
WT: Never scared.
BB: Ok. Funny I’ve heard this a lot from Bomber Command crews. They weren’t, they were apprehensive but they weren’t particularly scared.
WT: No. We just went in and did it.
BB: And did it. Yeah ok. Now we’ve read a lot, or I’ve read a lot, there’s been a lot of post-war um study on LMF issues.
WT: Yes.
BB: Lack of moral fibre issues. In your time in Bomber Command did you ever come across anything of that sort?
WT: I think there was one. One night that I never found out true there was three of us three kites on a set of pads.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Or whatever you call them.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And we did a run up and then we used to come outside -
BB: Yeah.
WT: For a smoke or whatever knowing that the signal would go up, get in your kites, and there was a pilot on one of those things and I didn’t know him sat in the hedge smoking a cigarette and there was a little bit of a kafuffle and three staff cars came down and he went with them. Now, that was the bloke who had refused to go that night. When we got back everything was hushed.
BB: Was he commissioned?
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: We didn’t, I don’t know what had happened to him. I didn’t know the guy.
BB: He was just posted. That was it. Gone.
WT: It was just, he was just taken off. Yeah.
BB: Yeah ok. What year would that be roughly? Roughly. Doesn’t have to be exact.
WT: I can’t remember. It was certainly in ’44.
BB: Ok.
WT: ’45 I mean.
BB: ’45.
WT: The beginning of ’45.
BB: Because, coming back to my late uncle’s crew his rear gunner um Sergeant Clegg had been a pre-war warrant officer but had been busted down to sergeant many times for doing nasty things, naughty things I should say. I won’t go into details.
WT: Right. No.
BB: But he was always in and out of Sheffield. You know what Sheffield was?
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. He was always in and out of Sheffield and that’s another place that doesn’t have much publicity. It was the air crew rehabilitation centre or whatever they wanted to call it.
WT: Ahum.
BB: But I only found this out by looking at the form 500, 540.
WT: 540.
BB: Yeah and it had all the missions for my uncle and the crews and you’d see Sergeant Clegg and then you’d see three or four trips no Sergeant Clegg some other gash gunner had gone in and I asked some survivors on my late uncle’s crew what about Clegg? At first they were all very protective and then they said well actually Clegg was a bit of a lad and he got into trouble with drink and women and was always been sent to Sheffield but in in the air he was a perfect rigger just I mean you know my uncle trusted him implicitly and when he was at Sheffield my uncle felt really, really uncomfortable with this gash gunner sitting at the back who he didn’t know. But you know he got, he got through his tour unfortunately my uncle but was killed instructing.
WT: Our wireless op he was, he was an Australian and he was a silly B really and he drank like old boots so when he got in the kite he would do everything he had to do but Jack, our navigator was a great guy ‘cause he knew there was a group, a message to come. I’ve forgotten was it half hourly -
BB: Yeah.
WT: Quarter hourly.
BB: Half hourly.
WT: He’d give Digger a kick.
BB: Usually the weather and, yeah.
WT: We’d could usually hear, ‘Digger wake up you silly B.’ And he’d be, ‘Oh oh alright,’ he says and he never missed, he had everything down, he never missed a thing. He knew exactly where we were going.
BB: Yeah. That’s great. My uncle’s navigator was the old man of the crew. He was -
WT: Yeah.
BB: He was thirty two.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: He’d been a postmaster in the Isle of Man and had volunteered to be a navigator because he was very good at maths but he was the old man of the crew and the rest of the crew called him Pop. Because the average age on, the average age on my uncle’s crew was what nineteen, twenty.
WT: Ahum.
BB: My uncle himself he was twenty one when he was killed. And that’s having done thirty trips.
WT: I was, I got I was twenty one in Canada. While I was in Canada.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I got deferred service so so such a long time.
BB: Yeah.
WT: In fact I registered as I had to do.
BB: Was that because you were local government job that was deferred?
WT: No nothing to do with that at all. ‘cause they were happy.
BB: It wasn’t a reserved occupation or anything.
WT: No it wasn’t.
BB: No.
WT: It wasn’t reserved. What happened was I signed on as we had to do and I said look here’s my number. Oh yes well that’s ok. Three weeks later I got called up for the army and [noise off] that’s somebody downstairs.
BB: Oh right.
WT: Don’t take any notice of that. And I got called up for the army and I managed to get out of that with a big brigadier somebody that we well knew. He rang them up and he said silly B. He told you what was happening because they were going to come and fetch me.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So that worked out alright.
BB: Good.
WT: Because, you know it didn’t always go right.
BB: No.
WT: I was lucky.
BB: So there were, there were evidence of LMF when you were on the squadron.
WT: Just that one.
BB: Just that one.
WT: Just that I know of.
BB: Yeah. Exactly. Just that you know of. And he was commissioned.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. I’ve heard other stories where had it been a sergeant air crew Harris was so worried about this kind of thing that we would call it post-traumatic stress disorder.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Today um they were, they were lined up in front of the whole squadron, stripped of their chevrons.
WT: That’s right.
BB: And their brevets taken off. Which was very very harsh but it did get the message. And other aircrews I’ve spoken to they were more scared of that happening to them.
WT: That they -
BB: Then facing the Germans.
WT: So that kept them going.
BB: And I suppose that was Harris’ view. You can either be scared of me or you can be scared of them.
WT: Sure.
BB: Make your choice.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Um but it now the Americans had a completely different attitude to it in the 8th air force and they were flying daylight raids.
WT: Ahum.
BB: As you know. So there was a different thing. The other commands, coastal, fighter, transport they had their, it wasn’t so prevalent.
WT: No.
BB: In those commands. But it’s, it’s, it’s an issue that is very interesting academically and the Sheffield thing. So that might be something that might be an aspect of the Bomber Command research.
WT: [?]
BB: No I’m just saying but you knew of it, it happened on your squadron and that was -
WT: That’s it.
BB: Quietly posted away.
WT: Didn’t take no notice of it.
BB: Yes, that’s right. I mean, you know, a very good friend of my father’s, a chap called Musgrave who was a pathfinder, a pre-war fitter when the heavies came in he volunteered to be a flight engineer, went to St Athan, came out with [E] joined his crew at the Heavy Conversion Unit and went on and did his thing but he did ninety three ops at the end and I said to him once, sadly he’s no longer with us but I have his log books and he said, ‘Well, you know we were dead anyway after four,’ four to five ops in that tour no statistically, statistically -
WT: I know. Yes.
BB: Dead. So let’s go.
WT: I’m going to empty that.
BB: Oh I’m sorry. Right.
WT: Are you going to switch it off or not? Whichever you want to do.
BB: No I’ll just.
WT: I’ll run.
BB: No don’t run. Take your time.
WT: No. No.
BB: Take your time.
WT: It’s only two minutes.
BB: Yeah.
[Pause]
BB: Ok.
WT: Sorry about that.
BB: No, don’t be. No, it’s fine.
WT: You can’t stop it you see.
BB: No. I know you can’t. Thank you very much.
WT: You know.
BB: So that’s great.
WT: You know.
BB: That’s great.
That’s great. Sure
BB: We’ve covered why you wanted to join, you joined, you got re-mustered from pilot to bomb aimer sorry NavB er went to Canada for your initial training.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And then came back to the Heavy Conversion Unit. Lancaster finishing school.
WT: Right.
BB: And went to the OTU and got your crew.
WT: Yes. That’s right.
BB: And you did your, you did your trip. Was it twenty nine do you remember? You told me.
WT: We did twenty nine. I always say one was a half.
BB: Ok.
WT: We got out one night and we had an engine go.
BB: A boomerang.
WT: And she wasn’t very, we weren’t very happy but we carried on for a while and then another one started to go sick so we turned -
BB: Now -
WT: So we turned and came back.
BB: Yeah.
WT: That was about -
BB: What mission, what sortie was that?
WT: That was about the 8th of February.
BB: 8th of, yeah.
WT: Politz I think it was called.
BB: 8th of February 45.
WT: Hmmn?
BB: 8th of February 45. Yeah.
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And er when we got back somebody said, ‘Why didn’t you go on?’ And he had a few rings there and I said, ‘Sir look out on the pan. There’s an aircraft out there. It’s got two good engines. One is alright I think. The other one’s rough.’ I said, ‘There’s seven of us here.’
BB: What did the flight engineer think about it? He must have made the judgement on that?
WT: No, he had -
BB: The captain.
WT: He had to shut it down. It was -
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I said, ‘And you’ve got the seven of us are here are ready to go again.’ I said, ‘We didn’t go over and get a VC and lose your aircraft for you.’ Cause that -
BB: What did he say to that?
WT: So he said, ‘Well forget it.’ I said, ‘just as well [stress] sir.’
BB: Station commander?
WT: Hmmn?
BB: Was that the station commander?
WT: Yeah. No. It was the er -
BB: Squadron commander?
WT: No. It was the station commander. He happened to be there, yes.
BB: Yeah. Station master as they used to call them.
WT: They usually had four rings.
BB: Yeah. Group captain. Yes.
WT: There was the AOC there. He was there. He was great ‘cause I was friendly with his WAAF lady.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I used we used very friendly just chatted and all that and had a drink and I was saying good night to her outside his house one night and suddenly he tapped me on the shoulder, he was coming in. He said, ‘Don’t keep her up all night because she’s got to get me breakfast in the morning.’ He said, ‘This isn’t a -
BB: Yeah, but they knew what was going on.
WT: He knew.
BB: They loved their aircrew. Yeah.
WT: He was happy.
BB: Now -
WT: I’ve done a whole lot screed on me.
BB: I’ll look at that later.
WT: Yeah that’s what I wanted to -
BB: One other thing I wanted to mention to you because -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomber Command had a high instance of venereal disease. VD.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And it was, it was a big a big issue because crews were getting sick and having to go to Halton and all these other hospitals and Harris had a view of it that, ‘cause the chief medical officer in Bomber Command went to see him about it, right. Went to see Harris
WT: Ahum.
BB: To, you know, tell him, you know, it’s got to stop and he said, ‘If my old lags want to have a bit of fun let them have it because they could be dead tomorrow. Now get out of my office.’ He said something like that. But I mean did you, were you aware of any of that?
WT: No. No.
BB: Were there any kind of big posters?
WT: No it was -
BB: Or lectures?
WT: No. It was a good squadron as far as that was concerned. No. We had good fun. We had this -
BB: Yeah
WT: We did a lot of that.
BB: Right. But less of the other.
WT: As far as I’m concerned.
BB: Apparently it was a big problem in Bomber Command but probably in certain areas.
WT: We, we were lucky. I was lucky. I think we had a good squadron there.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They really were. I didn’t know all of them or anything.
BB: No. No, of course.
WT: I didn’t get to know them.
BB: No. No. No. You didn’t.
WT: No.
BB: And I suppose there was the usual horror story in the morning when you went in for breakfast and there were blank chairs. Guys didn’t come back.
WT: Yeah but then I mean people weren’t in because I was lucky I was in the mess lower ground floor. All I had to do was come out of my room turn left and right and there was the dining room.
BB: Right.
WT: So I was dead lucky. Well the bar well there was no bar because it was a peacetime mess.
BB: Sure.
WT: I mean we had to go down a little alleyway.
BB: Sure.
WT: And get served in the trap hatch as we called it.
BB: Right.
WT: The [corps?] was very good.
BB: Now inter relationships within the crew between commissioned and non-commissioned crew members? Any, now you flew as a crew and that was it but of course when you landed you went to your separate messes.
WT: Yes well the, Bruce and I were in -
BB: The other mess, officer’s mess.
WT: The other -
BB: Sergeant’s mess.
WT: Five were together in a house.
BB: In a house ok they were billeted in a house.
WT: One of the wartime houses they were in.
BB: Ok. Ok. Right. I’ve heard a lot of stories where they couldn’t mix formally on base so they went to the local pub and the crew got out all together.
WT: Well you couldn’t do it on base.
BB: No. I know.
WT: You couldn’t be walking -
BB: No. I know.
WT: Around chatting.
BB: No but I meant there was the officer’s mess and the sergeants mess.
WT: They couldn’t mix them up. No.
BB: So they went off base to do it. At least that’s what my uncle did.
WT: The only time we, the only time we mixed was the pre-ops meal.
Interview: Yeah.
WT: And usually that was the sergeant’s mess because it was bigger because of their numbers so we could join them there for the meal.
BB: That’s right.
WT: ‘We had our pre-op meal there altogether.
BB: Because you were one of the privileged guys in the Lancasters. PNB pilot/navigator/bombardier. They were the three main crew PNB and they were recruited -
WT: Ahum.
BB: You know as slightly more rigorously selected and recruited more rigorously than let’s say the gunners because you had the, had to have the education to do those jobs.
WT: Oh you did. Yes.
BB: And you had to have the right characteristics.
WT: Yeah.
BB: So -
WT: I had my London General School Certificate.
BB: Well that’s right. That’s right um well that was, that was good. Let’s see, course you came, I mean I’m not, the time you got into the squadron -
WT: Yeah.
BB: It was late ‘43 or early ’44?
WT: Do you know my memory.
BB: Yeah.
WT: It’s the age.
BB: It’s ok.
WT: Alright. My first op was on the 15th of October ‘44.
BB: ’44. So the war was, the war was still there. And -
WT: Oh yes.
BB: Still brutal.
WT: Oh yes.
BB: Bombers were still being lost.
WT: Yes.
BB: Right up to the last day.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: But was there any feeling of it can’t be long now or did you think it was just going to go on and on until it stopped. I mean did you have any sense that we were winning?
WT: No.
BB: And doing all that stuff?
WT: We were, as I said.
BB: D-day had finished of course.
WT: No, no, yeah it didn’t. D day, D-day, D-day was over, yes.
BB: Yes.
WT: When I was at OTU.
BB: Yeah but there was still, you know -
WT: Yes.
BB: Still the fighting.
WT: Oh yes well we were the old line.
BB: Still bombing.
WT: The line went further -
BB: Yes.
WT: And further back.
BB: Yes, that’s right.
WT: But there was still a line.
BB: Oh a lot of day -
WT: There was.
BB: Yeah. And did you go on any daylights? Because there were a lot of daylight raids coming in
WT: We did, we did the odd daylights. We did one, two, three. About three. No four. I think there were four -
BB: Four daylights and at that stage of the war was the Luftwaffe still effective or were they -.
WT: Hang on. The last one we did was in April.
BB: April.
WT: ‘45.
BB: Ok.
WT: That was at Nordhausen. Wherever that was.
BB: Nordhausen ok but the um but the Luftwaffe by that stage was essentially gone. I mean no fuel, and losses had been high.
WT: They were up in the air.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And I spotted and -
BB: Did you ever see any of the new jets? ME262 or -
WT: I was going to say because I spotted some one night when we were out and we couldn’t understand. We thought they were rockets and they seemed to be going straight up and this happened a couple of times. It was more over Holland.
BB: Oh the V2s coming off.
WT: No. It was, it was the -
BB: Oh the exhaust from the -
WT: New jets.
BB: The new jets. Oh ok.
WT: The new jets no the V2s had finished by that time.
BB: You didn’t, you didn’t
WT: But we, I reported it but didn’t know anything.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I just said I didn’t know what they were.
BB: Yeah ok.
WT: So that was up to them. I, I didn’t know what they were.
BB: No.
WT: Until after the war. I found out.
BB: Yes. Yes and the German night fighters were still around, prowling around um did you, did you at that time they had Junkers 88s and Messerschmitt’s 110s with the Schräge Musik. Upward firing guns.
WT: Yeah. That was yeah.
BB: When they started to appear crews would just see this massive explosion in the sky and -
WT: Ahum.
BB: Thought they’d been hit by flak. They hadn’t, they hadn’t realised that they were getting under the -
WT: No.
BB: The belly and er it took a long time for Bomber Command to actually tell the crews -
WT: Yeah.
BB: About it.
WT: We knew about it.
BB: You knew about it but it, it was a very effective night fighter technique and -
WT: We only, we used to see searchlights in the sky.
BB: Yes.
WT: And there was the old master one.
BB: Yes.
WT: The red one.
BB: Yes and that was the radar and if that locked on to you the radar guided one -
WT: That was radar but one of them was coming towards us and I was screaming to Bruce and he said give me an idea of timing and I said, ‘Now,’ and what we did then we went straight through it.
BB: Yeah.
WT: As quick we could and he went like this and he disappeared.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So in other words he’d he’ll find somebody else.
Instructor: Yeah he’d find somebody else and ‘cause once you’d been combed that was it.
WT: We did it twice.
BB: More or less. Did it twice.
WT: That happened twice.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Ahum.
BB: That was it to get out.
WT: We didn’t get fired at.
BB: Well it happened to my uncle once and he actually put the aircraft straight down the path of the searchlight as best he could.
WT: The front gunner.
BB: With the front gunner blazing like mad.
WT: I would that’s right.
BB: And quick get out of the way and that ‘cause they changed that but it was -
WT: No. But we were, we were lucky.
BB: The [line was still] well ok with the advance of the allies but the German night fighter force went on quite effectively until more or less the end were constrained by fuel at the end and losses.
WT: It was.
BB: And losses of course. But what would between the flak and the night fighters and collisions and all that sort of thing what would you say was the main, the main fear? Night fighters?
WT: I don’t think we had fear.
BB: No.
WT: I’m sorry if -
BB: You put it away.
WT: It sounds big headed but -
BB: No, no, no.
WT: I don’t. I don’t think.
BB: No. I’m not I’m not. Yeah.
WT: We knew we had a job to do. If we didn’t do it -
BB: Ok. I’ll put it -
WT: We were in trouble.
BB: I’ll put it I’ll put it another way.
WT: Yeah. Go on.
BB: When you had the intelligence briefing.
WT: Yeah.
BB: At the brief.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Obviously they briefed you on night fighter tactics
WT: Yeah
Instructor: And where the flak concentrations -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Were and your route was planned.
WT: Yeah.
BB: To avoid these things and you had Window ah Window.
WT: Window.
BB: Were you dropping Window at that stage as a regular thing?
WT: All the way. All the way we could.
BB: And you had Boozer giving you the electronic aid that latched on to the night fighter radar.
WT: I didn’t do anything about that.
BB: Ok. That must have been with the wireless op.
WT: Wireless op had that.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Because he had, he had a little book.
BB: Yeah. That’s right because the Germans countered that by finding the frequency and all the -
WT: That’s right.
Instructor: And all the rest of it.
WT: That’s right.
BB: Everything like that. It went back and forth I think on the -
WT: Yeah he had that on his table.
BB: Yes. Ok. Rebecca and Boozer and all this stuff.
WT: Yeah we had [?]
BB: Yeah but window was quite effective, yeah.
WT: We did that religiously.
BB: Yes.
WT: I was glad to get rid of it mind.
BB: Yes.
WT: Get in the blooming way.
BB: Now the, my uncle’s wireless operator, he was the warmest guy on the Lanc. Everybody else was cold but he was the warmest behind his little curtain.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Um so he was either too hot or too cold but usually hot.
WT: I was happy.
BB: You were alright in your -
WT: I was alright.
BB: Your place.
WT: Where I was.
Instructor: Could you, you were usually you were at the front of course.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah and I mean for take-off you weren’t there you were probably back -
WT: For take-off we had an arrangement. When we were on OTU -
BB: Yeah.
WT: They trained the, what do you call it, to take off with Bruce?
BB: Yeah.
WT: What’s the, God -
BB: Flight engineer.
WT: Flight engineer. Sorry, I’ve got amnesia.
BB: It’s alright.
WT: No the flight engineer he trained, he was trained to take off and land so -
BB: Yes. That’s right.
WT: Fine. Instead of me being down in the nose which was a bad place to be -
BB: Yeah, Yeah.
WT: I’d be sitting on the engineer’s seat and there were two red wheels and those were the fuel.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And they said to me if I ever saw a red light come up.
BB: Scream.
WT: Do that.
BB: Turn it off.
WT: No turn them both off.
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: And that’s what I did until he poked me in the back and he said, ‘I’ve finished Bob, now’ and I’d say, ‘Cheers.’ and I’d go back to my office. We did that. I came up to landing the same way.
BB: Right. Now again I’m sorry to go back again to my uncle’s crew because it’s, it’s not him we’re talking about but they were representative. His bomb aimer, every time they were approaching the target, the whole crew would get on you know well the captain would say, ‘Try and make it one run this time will you?’ ‘Cause you know, ‘Sorry I’ve got to go around again boss. You know it was like it was never did so it was -
WT: Never did one more round. We went in every time.
BB: Excellent. Excellent.
WT: ‘cause I think it was a question of where you were.
BB: Yes, I understand. In the bomber stream. Yes.
WT: You know, in the stream. But I never had to once.
BB: Because you know the Germans were great at having dummy markers and flares.
WT: Sure.
BB: And changing the, trying to get a feel for the aiming point and, you know.
WT: And the whole thing when you worked it out the whole cross wind.
BB: Yes. Yes.
WT: You could pick it up
Instructor: Yes,
WT: Ages before you
BB: Right.
WT: And I’d get Bruce to change so that we had a good direction.
BB: Right. Ok.
WT: And he was very good ‘cause he just used the pedals to to do
BB: [the rudder bar] yes that’s right to correct the [yaw] My uncle’s bomb aimer only went around I think twice on one target but it was, it was, it was an important one. Um ‘cause my uncle went to Peenemunde. He did the Peenemunde raid. Well he was lucky. He was in the first wave. The diversion raids had, there were no night fighters because -
WT: No.
BB: They had, they weren’t there.
WT: They were somewhere else.
BB: They were somewhere else.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But the guys in the third wave-
WT: They copped it didn’t they?
BB: They copped it. Yeah. But of course they weren’t told what it was for.
WT: We were very, very lucky. I really think we were.
BB: I think luck had a big part to play whether you survived your tour or not
WT: I think so.
BB: And that yes as well
WT: Yes.
BB: That and a great crew and a competent crew.
WT: Well our navigator was red hot.
BB: Yeah.
WT: ‘cause one day Bruce said to him, ‘Jack, why don’t you let Bill take over?’ And before I could say anything he said, Bill you don’t mind or Bobs they used to call me. ‘Bobs you don’t mind but I’d rather be responsible myself for what’s happening.’ I said, ‘I’d rather you did.’ And he did. And he didn’t want me to help with the Gee. He did it all himself.
BB: No. Yeah. Yeah.
WT: He wanted to do it all himself. No, he did it all himself.
BB: Yeah. My uncle’s navigator too. He had all these aids.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But he liked to do it himself and used Gee as a backup you know and -
WT: You know Jack was a good navigator.
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: In fact I contacted him after the war. He was over in er, on the east, west coast somewhere and I had a couple of words with him, He got taken ill and died just like that within nine months of my knowing him.
BB: Oh dear.
WT: There’s one of our crew left still here. Harry the rear gunner. He’s down in Yorkshire.
BB: Oh right I must get his -
WT: He’s not a hundred percent.
BB: No.
WT: At the moment.
BB: No.
WT: And we have a reunion of 153 but it’s got that about there’s only about two members.
BB: No.
WT: That go. It’s all the associate members.
BB: I know.
WT: But they meet every year down in err oh down the road -
BB: Scampton oh in Yorkshire. No in -
WT: Lincoln.
BB: Lincoln. Scampton, Waddington.
WT: No. In Lincoln itself.
BB: Oh Lincoln. Ok
WT: In a pub, in a, in a hotel
BB: Yes.
WT: And go to BBMF.
BB: Yes.
WT: And BBMF -
BB: Yes
WT: Bring them in.
BB: Yeah it’s great. I’ve been there.
WT: They are very much with us.
BB: I had the very great privilege of flying in the BBMF Lancaster.
WT: Did you?
BB: Yeah I was on duty as a reservist and briefing and debriefing crews. Modern crews.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they said do you want, do you want a flight? And I said yeah. They said, ‘There’s Jacko Jackson over there.’
WT: Ah.
BB: ‘He’s the captain.’ He said, ‘Go and see Jacko.’
WT: Yeah.
BB: And he’ll fix you up and I went across and I said, I was a flying officer at the time and I said, ‘Good morning sir.’ And he said, ‘Yeah. I know about you. You’re coming with me on a one hour flip around in the Lanc.’ We were doing a test, air test of something so
WT: Ahum.
BB: It was wonderful and I told him about my uncle and all that and I went to every position except the rear gunner position.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They wouldn’t let you in there but I went mid upper gunner, I went down the bomb aimer and it was the bomb aimer’s place. It was, it was great but you get a sense of how that main spar going across could be a real hindrance if you had to get out.
WT: I’ve got some photographs I don’t know where they are now of our people in that one going over the main spar.
BB: With all the kit on?
WT: No. Well we didn’t have that. We used to throw that down over the top but there’s one of the ladies, she took over as the squadron scribe, association scribe and I still keep in touch with her and there’s one of her looking over the top and all I could see was her backside so it appeared on the thing
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: Guess who?
BB: Guess who. Because you either went out the main door at the back.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Or you went out the bomb aimers hatch at the top.
WT: Hatch.
BB: Yeah and when that, if that’s in a spin or you know it was difficult but it was difficult getting out of the Lancaster but it was quite difficult when those things -
WT: Sure.
BB: When they caught you.
WT: I say, you know, we were so lucky.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So lucky.
BB: Yeah. So did all your crew that you trained with and flew with survive the war?
WT: Yes we all survived.
BB: All survived.
WT: Together yes we all survived together and after that we were dispersed to various place
BB: Of course. Yes.
WT: I went one way, somebody went, Harry funnily enough he was a sergeant he was sent to India and he was in the post office out there somewhere and they dropped him to corporal.
BB: Yeah. That happened a lot.
WT: Terrible that was. I couldn’t understand that.
BB: Wartime temporary. Now you’re a corporal. Yes.
WT: Yeah.
Instructor: That’s right. Yeah. And err in your own case when the war finished when did you actually leave the air force? Was it ‘46 sometime or -
WT: Yeah. I think, ohI can’t remember offhand.
BB: Well just vaguely?
WT: It’s in my in -
BB: Logbook?
WT: No. It’s in my script somewhere.
BB: Oh ok. Well anyway it was most. Most were let loose by 1947.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. Most.
WT: Where did I put my scribe script?
BB: Oh don’t worry about it but where
WT: Oh, here it is in my hand.
BB: What did they have you do in that time?
WT: Oh.
BB: Were you supernumerary somewhere or were you -
WT: No they wanted, wanted us to train as something and I trained as an equipment officer.
BB: Right ok so the whole surplus aircrew thing.
WT: Yes.
BB: Because of the war
WT: Yeah.
Instructor: They said you can go home, you’re a good bloke, you’re commissioned we need you blah blah blah but you got to remuster as something else.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And, and -
WT: And I was told that’s what I was going to be. I did a course for six weeks on equipment. Got sent to RAF Strubby.
BB: Oh I know where -
WT: Which had been -
BB: Strubby is in Lincolnshire.
WT: Coldest place on earth. Was shut down and it was ready to be everything taken out.
BB: Right.
WT: And I had a few bods there to do that and we had trucks coming out
BB: Taking -
WT: Getting rid of stuff and so on.
BB: That’s right
WT: And I had another guy ‘cause I was attached to some maintenance unit over on the coast and they sent a guy to help me Frank Wilkes bless him a brummy and we worked together and we both got our going off together so we, we, we went off down to London to get our -
BB: Right got your demob suit and out you went.
WT: I didn’t want a hat so he put his, he put my hat that I would have on. I took it outside and I gave it to - [laughs]
BB: So, ok. So you were demobbed.
WT: Yeah.
BB: After all of that. Having gone through that having gone through all that with Bomber Command being demobbed, done your trips with all the trials and tribulations and terror of what could have happened. What did you do then?
WT: I went back to my job.
BB: You went back to your job.
WT: It was reserved. I joined the health department of the Cornwall County Council in September ‘39, no August ’39.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I was there then until I joined up but my job was held for me, my, while I was only on my two bob or whatever it was a week my pay was made up.
BB: Right.
WT: But as soon as I got more that stopped and I had to go in and pay the, pay the difference
BB: And obviously you rebuilt your life.
WT: Yeah.
BB: After that and here we are and well done.
WT: My wife, my wife was -
BB: I was going to ask about that.
WT: She was -
BB: Did you meet her in the RAF?
WT: No I met her in, at work.
BB: At work.
WT: I remember it was -
BB: Post war work.
WT: Yeah. The uniform did it.
BB: Ah the uniform did it.
WT: So what I would -
BB: It still had the pull of the air crew.
WT: Well I always went up in my full uniform.
BB: Of course you did.
WT: And it was funny when we had that grand loop.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I went home on leave. I went up to see somebody and I went in see the boss ‘cause I was his favourite. He was the first boy post boy he’d ever appointed ‘cause he was new.
BB: Ah.
WT: Dr Curnow and
BB: Curnow?
WT: Curnow same as Cornwall
BB: Yeah.
WT: Curnow.
BB: Yeah.
WT: C u r n o w.
BB: Yes I had, one of my medical officers was from Cornwall. His name was Curnow.
WT: Yeah. He, he stayed there all the time. For a long, long time and he said to me, when I’d finished I went back, and there was a brr brr and his secretary said that, ‘Yes he is.’ She said, ‘He says go in.’ He said, ‘Sit down. Have you finished?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Hold your hands out.’ He said, ‘You couldn’t do that last time you were here,’ he said, ‘You had the twitch.‘
BB: I was going to come to that
WT: [?] yeah
BB: This chap Musgrave I was telling you about. The guy that did the ninety three trips. He had a permanent twitch. It was sort of –
WT: Ahum.
BB: Like that.
WT: No. No.
BB: But he had a twitch and everybody knew you know he had been
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomber command but he was very, not because he was boasting about it they just knew that he got out. He finished the war with DFC, DFM and God knows else what but he’d been a pre-war guy but he had a twitch and I asked him once where he got it. How it started. And he said he’d had a crash and er he survived. One or two guys didn’t and that affected him.
WT: That was, that was from when it started because he had said he hadn’t noticed it before.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He was a good chief was Doc Curnow.
BB: So
WT: I was his boy.
BB: Yeah. So these things did have a knock on, knock on affect.
WT: Sure.
BB: Now, the, and then you had all that post war thing you know getting a job, getting married, a family and all of that. Most of the Bomber Command people that I have met and indeed other wartime aircrew not just Bomber Command they never, ever talked about it for years and years. Never.
WT: I agree.
BB: And some of them really still are reticent to talk um either it’s too painful for them one way or another.
WT: I don’t know.
BB: Or it’s just that was that was a bit of my life I’ve now put it in a cupboard.
WT: That was me.
BB: And get on with life.
WT: For a long, long time.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Until eventually I joined you know the Aircrew Association and so on
BB: Yes. That’s right.
WT: Especially when I came up here.
BB: Well I mean you guys were young and you’d gone through such a lot.
WT: Ahum.
BB: And it was very hectic and life was for today.
WT: Yes.
BB: Tomorrow you didn’t know if it was going to happen.
WT: I was, I was getting, I was married.
BB: Yeah. You had responsibilities.
WT: And we had our -
BB: And other things took priority over all of that.
WT: Yes, there were.
BB: And then of course there was this post war denial about Bomber Command.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And what they did and all the rest of it. How did that make you feel? Did it make you feel angry? Did it make you feel what the hell did we do it all for?
WT: I could have killed Churchill. Easily. You know, without any argument.
BB: Because of what he did.
WT: Because of Bomber Harris.
BB: I mean they called him Butch.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because you know but he he loved his crews and -
WT: He was, he came to Scampton once and he was great.
BB: And they loved him
WT: Yeah.
BB: Despite you know sending them off every night knowing that x number of Lancaster’s wouldn’t come back or Halifaxes or whatever. But that’s how he got his name Butch, Butcher.
WT: Yes.
BB: Butcher Harris but they seemed to get on with him.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They seemed to like, you know, his manner.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And his we’re going to do this, we’re going to do that.
WT: The one person on the squadron the squadron we didn’t like was the four ringer.
BB: The group captain.
WT: The group. He was not a nice fellow at all. We didn’t like him a bit and he used to come in to get his fags so we’d push him to the top of the queue so he could get the hell out.
BB: Did he ever fly? Did he ever go off?
WT: Yes he did a few.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He did one or two.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And he was, fortunately not with us but the AOC was there. He was -
BB: Was that Cochrane? Or Saunby?
WT: I don’t know what he was called.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He was a lovely fellow.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He had his own little [?]
BB: Yeah.
WT: In fact his WAAF
BB: Driver.
WT: No.
BB: His PA.
WT: No. Looked after him.
BB: Oh right.
WT: Looked after him. I got courting with her a bit.
BB: Ahh.
WT: Nothing like, nothing
BB: Nothing like going for the top.
WT: Untoward and one night we were saying goodnight and suddenly there was this tap on my shoulder, ‘Hurry up, don’t keep her up all night. She’s got to get my breakfast in the morning.’
BB: The morning. You said, ‘Yes sir.’
WT: Now who would have said that?
BB: They knew and, they knew and they let the guys get on with it.
WT: I saw her afterwards.
BB: In that respect.
WT: And she said that he laughed his head off.
BB: Oh that’s great. That’s great.
WT: They were a good lot.
BB: And now you’ve got your grandchildren, great grandchildren.
WT: Great grandchildren.
BB: And you’re going to be giving them your logbook and one thing and another.
WT: Paul my grandson. I’ve got a grandson and a granddaughter. Paul is supposed to inherit all my stuff.
BB: Yes.
WT: Which he will do.
BB: Yes. Good.
WT: But in the meantime.
BB: I hope you’ve written that down in a will or something?
WT: I don’t. My son knows.
BB: Ok.
WT: He knows. He’s as good as gold but Paul sorry my oldest grandson, great grandson Jack is very keen on Lancasters ‘cause they live in Lancaster.
BB: Yes of course.
WT: And he knows all about that so Jack has got lots of stuff to do with Lancasters and I said I’ve got all these books I don’t know whether I ought to be getting rid of them sometime. Pete said to me, that’s my son, the other day, ‘Dad don’t do anything until August. Jack’s coming up. He’s mad on the Lancaster’s and things, he’s got stuff all over the place so, in his room.’ so there’s four Lancaster – one, two, three, four, five books.
BB: Yeah.
WT: But you know
BB: Garbett and Goulding books.
WT: Yeah I met him and one other there and he’ll have those whatever happens. What, what about the others in the bottom lot I don’t know ‘cause the top one is all Cornwall but they’re spoken for one way or another.
BB: I have four hundred such books and I do a lot of research and I write occasionally in Flypast and other magazines um and they’re just for my own research. I mean, for example you said you were 153 I went to the books oh yes but now coming back to the controversial issue of medals.
WT: Sorry.
BB: Did you have to apply for your medals or did they come through the post eventually to you?
WT: I had to apply for them.
BB: You had to apply for them. And when did you apply for them
WT: Lord knows. I can’t remember.
BB: Yeah because they ok they had a lot to get through.
WT: No. That’s not true. I, I when I was an equipment officer before while I was still under training a bit with another thing.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I was asked to go up the headquarters somewhere and I took the logbook with me and I went through about my medals then and then I said, ‘Yes but I want the Air Crew Europe.’ ‘Well you can’t have it.’ ‘Well I said I don’t want any more.’ I went to go out and they pushed me back in again and they insisted that I had to have these four.
BB: Right, so now the, I had a very, my father knew another very nice man and his name was Slim Summerville. He had been a pre-war regular but he was a wireless operator I gather on Whitleys the one’s that flew like that -
WT: Ahum.
BB: And he hated them. But then he was shot down in November 1940 in France he made a crash landing. All the crew got out, sorry Holland, all the crew got out still fly, they flew in their number ones. Odd. But anyway they were all sitting around, standing around this aircraft trying to get it to burn and they couldn’t burn it. The Germans came. November ‘40 Battle of Britain had just finished. There they were. This Luftwaffe feldwebel came to them and said, ‘look we’ve got nowhere to put you but this Dutch, this Dutch farmer will look after you, we’ll put one of our guards there promise you won’t try and escape.’ ‘We can’t do that,’ they said but, ‘Never mind you go there.’ A month they were in this farmhouse having a life, they thought this is alright. This is ok. And then things got, they were then they were sent back in to Germany and they were sent towards the east. They were part of the great march but and he finished the war all the rest of it. When he was ill he came, I went to see him and he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘Bruce I never claimed my medals because I didn’t think I’d have very many being a POW but I’d like to pass them on to my grandchild.’ So I said, ‘Well ok.’ He said, ‘I can’t give you my logbook because it was when I was taken prisoner it was all lost and whatever.’ So I had to go to the National Archive in Kew and reconstruct his logbook and I took all this stuff and I said right your entitled to the Aircrew Europe, you’ve done, you’ve done all these missions between the qualifying dates of the -
WT: Yes sure.
BB: Award. Why, they said he wasn’t entitled to it. That he was only going to get the ‘39 to ‘45 star, the defence medal and a war medal. That’s all he was going to get.
WT: Oooh there’s one -
BB: Because he was -
WT: There’s one missing there really.
BB: So -
WT: France and Germany.
BB: Yeah but he was a POW. He wasn’t there.
WT: But did he -
BB: So -
WT: But he’d been doing work.
BB: Yeah but he was captured in 1940. So anyway so I went back and I said no you did x number of missions on the Whitleys you’re entitled to the Air Crew Europe so he said, ‘Well you write. I’ll give you permission and you write.’ So I wrote back to them first to air historical branch then to RAF records and they sent, they said, ‘Yes you’re right.’ So they reissued it. But with, but with the Air Crew Europe and I had them mounted for him and I took them to the hospital to see him in hospital and I pinned them to his pillow and he died three hours later. But he was so happy -
WT: Lovely.
BB: To have got them.
WT: Of course he was.
BB: Yeah. And he said -
WT: I’ve got mine here somewhere.
BB: All the rest was rubbish but Air Crew Europe’s the one so I am going to take your fight up.
WT: No.
BB: If I can do it for him, I can do it for you.
WT: Oh, there’s no point.
BB: Yes there is.
WT: I shouldn’t bother.
BB: Your grandchildren need it. I understand how you feel but if you’re entitled to it why don’t you take it?
WT: I’ve got them somewhere. I thought I had them there.
BB: Let’s have a look. Oh there they are. Right.
WT: They’re a replacement ‘cause I lost mine.
BB: Did you?
WT: And I lost the -
BB: What happened?
WT: Hmmn?
BB: What happened?
WT: I don’t know it was -
BB: They were all issued unnamed.
WT: It was in a move.
BB: They were all issued unnamed.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Now you see if I get you the Air Crew Europe. Right. Just say, let’s just say no this annoys me with the the whole medal thing you did all of that. Now I know you’re very proud and, and, and you don’t particularly want it but you earned it and this parsimonious government took their bloody time in giving you the Bomber Command clasp which I, did you ever claim it?
WT: No.
BB: Right.
WT: Yes I got that.
BB: Right.
WT: Yes.
BB: You need to sew that on.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Now, if I get you the Air Crew Europe if by chance we’re successful they’ll probably give you the Air Crew Europe with the France and Germany clasp.
WT: Ahum.
BB: ‘cause you couldn’t have both.
WT: Ahum.
BB: So you have to give that one back.
WT: I think the other one’s still there ‘cause I always said I can’t sew so
BB: So what I’m saying is they’ll probably take that one probably ask you to return that one.
WT: I’m not fussed about it you know.
BB: I’m just going through the procedure.
WT: I know.
BB: And um they that’s what they would do. Um but it is such a prestigious, it was only it was the only thing of the stars that I’ve talked to with the guys before that meant anything was the Air Crew, Air Crew Europe whether your coastal, bomber or whatever -
WT: Yes. Exactly.
BB: It was. Because they didn’t get a medal. That was only medal they actually got that was you know air force.
WT: I got mine. Those are replacements.
BB: Yes.
WT: Because -
BB: Exactly I’ll take a photo of those later.
WT: In transferring -
BB: Well -
WT: Something got lost and we never found them. I didn’t, I didn’t -
BB: Let me put it this way let me see what I can do and if I can do it you’ll take it. Right? You’ll take it if I can get it for you.
WT: Alright.
BB: Fine. Good.
WT: You’ve won.
BB: I feel very strongly about that ’cause you know medals are very emotive things even today.
WT: I won’t argue with you.
BB: No. Good. Ok well I’m going to stop the interview now. I think we’ve covered all the ground. Is there anything else you’d like to say that I may have forgotten?
WT: No.
BB: To ask?
WT: [If you]
BB: Are these your target pictures?
WT: Target pictures.
BB: Yeah.
WT: We were allowed to have those as the crew, the crew -
BB: Now -
WT: Took some as well.
BB: The other thing that used to get people a bit jumpy, ‘Have you got the flash skip? I’ve got to go around again.’ And, ‘Oh go on then.’
WT: No.
BB: Because a lot of crews were really ‘cause that was flying straight and level for a bit of a time to get that flash picture and if you missed it the first time you had to go back and at debriefing as you know once they processed the film -
WT: [?] that’s right.
BB: You were kind of ticked in the box that it was ok.
WT: The problem was the bottom of those it was -
BB: Yeah.
WT: A job to read
BB: Yeah.
WT: Very difficult to read
BB: It is.
WT: All the stuff.
BB: It is but -
WT: But the one there the first one Fort [Frederick Heindricks].
BB: Yeah.
WT: That was an aiming point.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I was told.
BB: Right.
WT: You could see the smoke coming away.
BB: How, we hear a lot about the pathfinders and the marking and all these different marking techniques. Were they, were they good? I mean were they -
WT: They were good as far as we were concerned. We would come up and every now and again they would say please you know bomb on so and so -
BB: Yeah they had the master bomber saying forget that that’s a spoof yeah go to -
WT: That’s right.
BB: Bomb on the greens.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomb on the greens. That kind of thing.
WT: Yeah. We had that.
BB: Yeah and because so -
WT: And that, that’s they’re all the same
BB: Oh ground zero.
WT: That’s, no that that’s Dresden.
BB: That’s what I’m saying ground zero at Dresden
WT: I wouldn’t know. With, you can see the modern building.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And the one that’s been destroyed.
BB: Yes.
WT: A friend of mine he lives here in Morpeth and they went over to Dresden and he came back he said, ‘Bill I thought I’d take a photograph. This is what you did you B.’
BB: Well yeah tough it was a legitimate target.
WT: Oh yeah as far as I was concerned it was.
BB: Thank you very much. They’re very interesting.
WT: Yes, I, those are, you know, to me, the crew had some you know.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So -
BB: My uncle had some and they used to put them in their logbook.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because the pilot’s logbooks were different as you know.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They were slightly bigger.
WT: Yeah well they were. That’s why mine is a bit of a mess and just written on. You know, scrolled
BB: I’ll have a look at that later. So I’m going to stop the interview now. Are you happy with that?
WT: Yes you -
BB: Ok.
WT: I don’t know if you saw those. That’s my doings. That’s, that’s how I got to know you.
BB: That’s all the stuff.
WT: And that was the newsletter. Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And that’s, yeah, that’s ok.
BB: And there’s your medals back.
WT: Oh there’s, ok.
BB: Give those back to you there.
Yeah oh don’t worry about that. Oh yes that’s the Bomber Command clasp in there.
BB: Oh yes well let’s have a look, you’ve got to sew that on haven’t you?
WT: Well yes I said my daughter and grand daughter.
BB: Well why don’t you. Is it still in it’s envelope? Let me just take a picture of that ‘cause that’s you. That’s-
WT: You can undo that clip better than I can.
BB: That’s very nice.
WT: That’s what it should be.
BB: About bloody time too.
WT: I think -
BB: I was -
WT: I, I hated the thing actually it should have been a blooming thing like the other people had.
BB: Yeah. I was I was privileged in being selected to be an usher at the Bomber Command memorial opening in London.
WT: Lovely.
BB: And I was in my squadron leader stuff and all my own medals on and it was great and I was given, I was given six, three Australian, three New Zealand, three Australian and three New Zealand air crew to look after. To host.
WT: [?]
BB: Yeah and they were all of your vintage, your age, you know, now.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they’d come all the way from Australia and New Zealand for free business class with [doorbell] New Zealand sorry
WT: That could be your wife.
BB: Could be my wife.
WT: Oh she’ll be, open the door.
BB: Oh I can get that for you sorry.
WT: No that’s alright. It could be somebody else. Hello.
Other: Hello.
WT: I’ve got someone with me. We thought it was his wife.
Other: Oh a parcel for me.
WT: Oh yes darling.
Other: That’s why I came. That’s very kind of you, Bill.
WT: That’s alright.
Other: Thank you very much indeed.
WT: I’ll keep the sixpence you’ll, I’ll send you the bill.
Other: Sixpence and you’ll send me the bill.
WT: We do things for one another.
BB: Yeah of course you do.
WT: Only around the corner. She’s a dear.
BB: Well done for that.
WT: When I came home last time from hospital I weren’t all that brilliant and she was doing shopping, she was insisting on doing my laundry and all that and I said -
BB: So -
WT: So I took a parcel in for her today.
BB: Right so -
WT: Where’s that going in there wasn’t it
BB: It’s with your medals yeah. Yeah yeah. So I’m with these guys and we’re all sitting them all down and I was getting and it was a pretty hot day and one of the Australians said ‘cause my name’s Bruce you see.
WT: Yeah.
BB: ‘Here, Brucie go and get us a beer mate.’ So I went and got them the beer and they ate this up and, ‘Here, I’m pretty hungry mate. Got any sandwiches?’ And we were going away and they said, ‘Look mate it’s getting hot here when’s this thing going to you know finish?’ I said, ‘Well, you know, the royals are going to be there. The Queen’s going to open it and so on and Prince Charles and Camilla will come and see you.’ ‘Right. Right. Ok.’ So this went on and the RAF BBMF Lancaster flew down and dropped these poppies but it got it wrong got it, slightly, slightly off track and all the poppies ended up in Piccadilly all over the place and -
WT: That’s one of them,
BB: Yes. Yes I know. I recognised that,
WT: Yeah.
BB: And this Australian looked up and he said, ‘Oh Christ the navig, the navs all wrong you know’ and, you know, ‘I suppose you can’t get the people these days’ and all that sort of talk, you know. Anyway I sent one of my little one of my helpers, one of my guys in our squadron, a corporal. I said, ‘Go and pick up as many of those as you can get.’
WT: Sure.
BB: And he met a policemen, this guy, with his helmet -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Just doing this you see and the policeman kept some in his pocket and he gave the rest to this guy so he gave each one of these guys one of the poppies and that was great but this Australian who was really quite vocal, nice bloke but he had with him a group captain Royal Australian Air Force from the embassy must have been the air attaché standing maybe just about there and you’re the guy right and he said, ‘Brucie, look when the royals come down can I ask when I’m going to get my’ dot dot ‘medal because I’m getting old and I’m going to fall of my perch mate and I’d rather like it.’ And I said, ‘Well you could but I don’t think it would be, you know, polite.’ He said, ‘[Dot dot] polite mate I’ve been waiting a long time.’ And then the group captain came across and said, ‘Look I’ve told you about that. That’s my job. Leave that to me.’ You know. Blah. ‘Well you’d better hurry up mate.’ And that was the end of that conversation and of course you get your, get the clasp.
WT: Oh dear.
BB: But it all went it all went it all went very well and every time I’m in London and I’ll be there next week I always get one of those British Legion wooden little wooden crosses.
WT: Yes.
BB: With the poppy on.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And I take my uncle’s crew and -
WT: Put their names down
BB: Just the one name. So my uncle first, then the bomb aimer, then and I put them all down and I look at the little little book they’ve got there.
WT: Yeah
BB: And its people write things down.
WT: Yeah
BB: And there’s obviously flowers. There’s things that gets me is this little one flower and an old plastic see through bag or
WT: Yeah.
BB: Something. With, ‘To Uncle George’ killed blah blah blah blah and you think gosh, you know and it’s such a focus that place for everybody to come and do stuff.
WT: Standing there with tears streaming down my eyes that day
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
WT: I couldn’t even -
BB: And I said to the Ben Fund people
WT: I shouted once, ‘Excuse me I’ve got to go to the toilet. Don’t do anything.’ [laughs]
BB: And I said to the Ben Fund guys who run it you know I hope someone collects all this stuff and takes it away.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because -
WT: Sure.
BB: You should do a book after five years or something with all the, ‘cause they leave copies of pictures.
WT: Sure.
BB: And crew pictures and -
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know, it’s a great archive there just on its own.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: One of their associate members who’s a bit of a B really but he rang up and said Bill I’ve got a poppy that came falling down. Did you want one? And he sent it up to me.
BB: Oh excellent.
WT: So that’s why I popped it on there.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And it keeps falling down but it fell behind one day so I put it there -
BB: I think -
WT: So it doesn’t go anywhere else.
BB: I think –
And by the way that -
BB: Yes.
WT: Is as good a representation of a lot of us coming off -
BB: Ops.
WT: Off ops yes.
BB: I’ll take a picture of that.
WT: The actual depth of that thing.
BB: Yeah. I’ll take a picture of that but -
WT: It’s terrific.
BB: I think I have at home a programme from that day. I’ll send it to you. From the Bomber memorial.
WT: I was here then.
BB: Yes I know but I’ve got -
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know I think I’ve got a number of spares. I will send it to you.
WT: But I would love to have been there.
BB: Well it was such a privilege.
WT: Two or three of our members were there.
BB: Yeah it was a privilege to be there and, and
WT: ‘cause we had a, I started a help doing it with Johnny [Johns?] on, who by the way has written a lovely book on our stuff. Did I have that out? No I didn’t
BB: That’s ok well I’ve got a feeling -
WT: That is
BB: Ok.
WT: That’s on.
BB: 153.
WT: That is done. Is on the internet somewhere or something.
BB: Is it?
Yeah.
BB: I’ll try and find it when I go back.
WT: Johnny’s done it. He’s got -
BB: When was that written? Let’s have a look
WT: Just inside is by the date its a few years ago. I don’t know if
BB: Oh here we are. April 1998.
WT: Yeah Johnny was one of the pilots that came just after when the war was more or less finished. He started just when we were just finishing the war but he became the chairman of our Association.
BB: Yes. How lovely.
WT: It’s a terrific book because it’s got -
BB: It’s a lovely book.
WT: You know you can see when everybody did everything.
BB: Yeah it was a lovely book. And it’s, it’s -
BB: It’s terrific.
BB: I have one similar for 9 squadron but not in so much detail.
WT: That, that has got every op was done and who was on it and everything else.
BB: Yes.
WT: And about all these tables.
BB: Has anybody got all these for the national -
WT: And the aircraft.
BB: We would have got these for the national archive.
WT: Oh no. No he -
BB: Logbooks.
WT: He was down there. He used to go down and, and -
BB: Yes at the archive.
WT: Yeah, he’d go down there.
BB: Oh I was down. It’s a great place to be it really is.
WT: He lived down in York way.
BB: Yeah.
WT: No he didn’t Salisbury sorry it was Salisbury ‘cause his daughter, one of his daughter is still there.
BB: Yes, That’s lovely.
WT: He used to come regularly to our dos.
BB: And you were on C flight yeah.
WT: Hmmn?
BB: C flight.
WT: No A.
BB: A flight. Ok.
WT: I was A flight. Yeah.
BB: A flight. Ok.
WT: Yeah there was -
BB: Sorry.
WT: You will see our crew there somewhere.
BB: Yes. I’m just looking for it here.
WT: Bruce Potter at the top.
BB: Potter’s crew eh.
WT: Did you not see it?
BB: Yeah hold on.
WT: He was on A flight.
BB: Potter.
WT: Almost where you had your thumb there.
BB: Potter.
WT: Is it over that side somewhere?
BB: Oh here he is. Potter. There we are.
WT: Yeah.
BB: I’ll take a note of that.
WT: His name was Bruce.
10859
BB: Well he’s got an Australian name mate.
WT: Certainly has, yes mate.
BB: Except mine’s more Scottish than Australian. In fact one of my objectives for this when I was down here my uncle who was the Australian he married my mother’s sister ‘cause I was born in Gainsborough which is Bomber Command Hemswell not too far from Hemswell.
WT: Yes, Hemswell. Yeah.
BB: And my brother was born in Newark and my, this Australian pilot was courting my mother’s sister while he was on ops but he wouldn’t marry her while he was on ops ‘cause he didn’t feel, he’d had so many young ladies coming to the mess after their husband’s had died and he wouldn’t do it. He said he would marry her when he’d finished ops but he was killed instructing and they were only married four months but my cousin was born you know shortly thereafter well you know nine months later basically and so he, he was born in the place where I was brought up by my grandmother at Coldstream in Berwickshire and the family claimed, the family claimed the body.
WT: Oh yeah.
BB: And he was brought up by train to Cornhill station and lay overnight in the family house and my grandfather had, was a commander of the local home guard having been an old soldier and he wanted to open the coffin ‘cause it lay in the front room with a flag on it and my mother was a nurse and my mother said I don’t think we should do that ‘cause he was burnt. She knew he had been burnt and so they didn’t do it. They said let’s just remember him.
WT: As we thought he was.
BB: As we was and when the guys came up from, from the RAF station he was at for the funeral his widow, my aunt, said I’d like his watch or his flying jacket please. Sorry all we’ve got is this this and which you’ll get from the committee of adjustment and they’ll send to you and all the rest but so when you go to this little Scottish cemetery you’ll see this Australian AF war grave.
WT: Right.
BB: That’s him.
WT: That’s him. Well I never.
BB: But he was only twenty one and the last time his mother saw him was when he was seventeen and a half to leave, leave Australia to come home come here.
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know.
WT: Yeah.
BB: It was just one of those awful things.
WT: What are you trying to do there?
BB: He had finished his, he had finished his, his ops and was screened and funny you know the crew all got together you know.
WT: Ah huh.
BB: And they said, ‘We’ll go on pathfinders. We’re safer on pathfinders than we are instructing.’ And that was the view and he said, ‘No, I can’t. I’ve got to, I want to get married and I’m not going to that.’ but if he had done that he probably would have been alright.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Exactly.
BB: There we go. It wasn’t to be I suppose. These things are always -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Sad.
WT: Sent to, sent to try us.
BB: They are. Well Bill thanks very much.
WT: That’s alright my friend.
BB: And I’ll be back I’m sure if I’m down this way again. It’s so lovely to talk to you.
WT: Yeah.
BB: There’s all your bits.
WT: Yeah. You’ve got, you’ve got the medals.
BB: I’ve got that picture you leant me and I’ll send that back when I get home tonight and I’ve got -
WT: You didn’t, you didn’t take the medals.
BB: No. No.
WT: No.
BB: No you’ve got them. Better check I don’t want you to, there they are in the bag
WT: That’s alright, they’re in the bag.
BB: They are in your just check please just check. No, no, no I haven’t got them. There they are
WT: I don’t know why, yeah they’re there such as they are.
BB: Well we’ll try and change that.
WT: I’m never bothered about medals.
BB: No. Well a lot of people don’t but the gran
WT: I’m not a medal man.
BB: No. A lot of people weren’t but you know there’s things like grandchildren who, who -
WT: Well. Paul -
BB: You’ve got, you’ve got your grandchildren now.
WT: My grandson.
BB: Who you would obviously like.
WT: They’re down in Salisbury at the moment I’m hoping they’re going to move a bit nearer but he’s interested but his nephew bless him is he’s only seven and a half at the moment.
BB: Yeah.
WT: But there’s a photograph of him up there. Jack. He’s very, very keen on it. Very keen.
BB: Well so he should be. It’s a great honour that you’ve done this.
WT: There’s the office.
BB: There’s the office, that’s right.
WT: These were, these were taken from the just, what is she called the one over, Just Jane over there in, we used to go down there a lot to the Panton Brothers where they’ve got the aircraft that taxies around.
BB: Yeah. Ok what have I got to do here now?
WT: [yawn] excuse me. This is all to do with the Lincolnshire arrangement that going, the spire’s gone up hasn’t it?
BB: Not yet. No, no, no, not -
WT: Oh I thought they’d already lifted it because our lot were down on oh a month and a half ago to their, to the reunion and that was the day when it was going to be delivered. They moved, had to move away because time was going on they’d only just got down the road and they saw it going back up.
BB: Right.
WT: Just coming. So they couldn’t do anything about it.
BB: No.
WT: I thought they said they put it up that night. Erected it.
BB: What? The spire?
WT: Yeah.
BB: In Lincoln?
WT: Yeah.
BB: Well to tell you the truth it might have done but I haven’t heard of it yet but -
WT: Well I thought that’s what they it had happened. They brought that in and the lorries or whatever was carrying it were going to get it upright for them to to anchor it down or whatever. I don’t know. Because they are going to build a great big wall around it aren’t t they with the name of the people who died
BB: Yes
WT: Or were killed. So [they’ll have old Giffords?] down on that one bless him. My room-mate.
BB: Oh God. There’s more bumph here.
WT: Cost you more money now.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. Right so we’d better get on with the paperwork. Let me just have a look at it
WT: Oh I thought you’d done it.
BB: No I’ve just been reading it here so we’ll better get on with it. Won’t be a minute. I think I’ll just call my wife up I’m a bit worried about her. See where she is
WT: I was going to say from my bedroom you can probably see the car.
BB: So when’s your next medical people coming in. When, when do they come in, every day to see you?
WT: No. No. No Wednesday is the day when everything normally happens.
BB: Yeah.
WT: At the moment I’ve got ear trouble but I’m off for another week but on Wednesday they come in to change your leg bag and do all kinds of things so I have to watch it but I’m alright I’m off for the next week or two I’m not doing too badly.
BB: Hi Jeannie. It’s me. I’m finished with Bill. I wonder if you could come back to to look at this documentation. It might need a witness. I’m not sure. Ok I’ll call you later. Or you can give me a call now. Thanks bye.
WT: Oh you’ve left her a message have you?
BB: Yeah she’s -
WT: Oh.
BB: She’s probably walking the dog.
WT: Stay where you are I think I can see the car from here.
BB: Ok thanks.
From the bedroom.
[pause]
WT: No the trees are in the way. I said the tree is in the way.
BB: Oh its William [Headley] Thomas isn’t it?
WT: [Headley].
BB: Oh that’s worth, that’s worthy of a photograph.
WT: Oh I don’t know I was just going to show you that. They were taken more or less the same time. You see what she’s wearing?
BB: Yes.
WT: A new pair of wings.
BB: Oh that’s lovely. May I take a picture of that one?
WT: Oh, go on. You don’t want that man.
BB: Yes I do. You’re, now that, now that you’ve been interviewed my dear boy you are now part of the national archive.
WT: Don’t.
BB: You are going to be in the Bomber Command archive.
WT: Am I?
BB: Yeah, you are.
WT: I thought, I thought it was the Lincolnshire.
BB: Yeah but it’s going to the University of Lincoln.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But that’s why we’ve got to sign this other stuff.
WT: While you’re doing that it’s happened again this damned bag.
BB: Oh I’m sorry.
WT: No it’s alright ‘cause it just happens like that I have a big bag to put on the end of it at night thank God.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Thomas
Description
An account of the resource
Bill had joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps and Air Training Corps. He volunteered as a pilot in the Royal Air Force and flew Tiger Moths at RAF Sywell but was re-mustered as a navigator. Bill went to Canada as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme, where he did bomb aiming, gunnery and navigation training. He was offered a commission and did some special training on Prince Edward Island before going to the holding unit at Moncton.
Bill returned to Scotland and converted to bomb aiming. He crewed up at RAF Castle Donington and went to RAF Sandtoft and RAF Hemswell to the Lancaster Finishing School. Bill was transferred to 166 Squadron at RAF Kirmington, flying Lancasters. They then went to RAF Scampton as 153 Squadron. Bill conducted 29 operations and one which was aborted because of engine problems. Bill then trained as an equipment officer, being sent to RAF Strubby. He then demobilised and returned to his job in local government.
The interview discusses relationships between commissioned and non-commissioned crew, Bill’s thoughts on Dresden, Bomber Command and Arthur Harris, and the awarding of medals.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AThomasWH150711
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Canada
Alberta
Ontario
Ontario--Toronto
Prince Edward Island
Québec
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Harrogate
England--Hastings
England--Lancashire
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Manchester
England--Northamptonshire
England--Redruth
England--Sussex
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Wigtown
Wales--Aberystwyth
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
United States
New York (State)
New York (State)--New York
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-11
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bruce Blanche
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:19:53 audio recording
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crewing up
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
memorial
observer
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
promotion
RAF Bicester
RAF Castle Donington
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kirmington
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Scampton
RAF Strubby
RAF Sywell
target photograph
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/143/1366/AHawkinsDH151001.1.mp3
8b754798beb1912e8757ed38a3b0d408
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hawkins, Des
Des Hawkins
Desmond Hawkins
D H Hawkins
D Hawkins
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Desmond Howard Hawkins DFC (158602 Royal Air Force), one photograph, a diagram and notes about his service. Des Hawkins volunteered for the Royal Air Force in 1941. He trained as a navigator in Canada and flew 47 operations in Lancasters with 44, 625 and 630 Squadrons from RAF Waddington, RAF Dunholme Lodge, RAF East Kirkby and RAF Kirmington.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Des Hawkins and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hawkins, DH
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
IL: So we’re now talking. So this is — it’s Ian Locker conducting an interview with Des Hawkins at his home in Melksham. It’s the first of October 2015 and the time is about 3 o’clock. So Des, tell us a little bit about your early life and how you came to be in Bomber Command during the war.
DH: Well, it’s fairly simple. At my age at a rather special grammar school I was attending at Bradford-on-Avon, known as Fitzmaurice Grammar School, and we were very well-educated, supremely [emphasis] well-educated but, above all, we were naturally patriotic in those days, and when war came along I thought, ‘Right, the schoolboy’s aim is always to drive an engine locomotive.’ It had to be changed to, ‘ I want to fly?’. So I volunteered and eventually, in 1941, called to interview where we had very intensive medical examinations, and problems to solve, and be interviewed. I wasn’t particularly helpful when it came to the interviewing board. I didn’t think much of them and I don’t think they thought much of me actually but the fact is when they asked me why I wanted to join the Royal Air Force I said, ‘Well, that’s simple. I want to fly, obviously,’ and adding the word “obviously” put a bit of criticism into the questionaire and they suitably looked down a bit. [Background noise] Is it off?
IL: It’s switched on. It’s just you have quite a slightly quiet voice so I’m getting the recording level a bit higher.
DH: Oh, I see.
IL: But that’s fine.
DH: Well, the next question they asked me was, ‘ Have you any relations in the Royal Air Force?’ And I said, ‘Oh yes. Wing Commander A L Grice NC.’ Now that stunned them a bit because NC, as you know, is an army decoration basically and he had been a captain in the Great War, and had wing commander status in the last war, simply because he was a very positive research man. He had all the skills to conduct the sort of matters that needed to be put forward during wartime and at that point they all smiled, got up, came round the table and shook me by hand. They said it would normally be eighteen months you’ll be called up in — you were given a little badge, RAFER, and told to go back to civvy life but you’re sworn in, sworn in the Air Force, but you’re in civvies and they said, ‘Because you have someone in the RAF already, instead of waiting eighteen months you will wait only three months’, and that was the way it turned out. Thereupon, I was posted overseas, to Canada, down to the United States under the Arnold Scheme, the illegal [emphasis] scheme where we weren’t allowed to wear uniforms but they provided the RAF with flying training. But we had to wear lounge suits to settle the matters created by the Neutrality Acts but we were kicked out there. It wasn’t a very successful scheme. Even if you didn’t have your blankets, your sheets, at the corners of exactly forty-five degrees you were washed out. You got de-merits and when you had enough de-merits, like coming in under the fence at night like we did, you were washed out of the course. That happened to me and I went back to Canada where I decided that I’d no longer wait for a pilot’s course. I would be a navigator. I had all the satisfactory education necessary and that’s the way it transpired. Back to England and then they lost us at Bournemouth for about three months. They had to dump us somewhere, where we bathed and filled The Norfolk Hotel nightly, and had a whale of a time. And then they eventually caught up and I went to OTU at North Luffenham in Stamford, Stamford near Oakham, up that way, to be trained on operational training, rather different from just flying. Flying at night, in total blackness of course. Absolutely opposite to what it was like on the other side of the pond, and after that we then — we crewed up then. We selected each other for members of a particular crew. We then went to a conversion course from Wellingtons to Lancasters.
IL: So had you ever flown on that, Wellingtons, when —?
DH: Oh yes but not until we got to OTU. You had to learn to fly them there and do the night training there.
IL: So you learnt as a crew?
DH: Oh yes, absolutely. That was the idea, to weld together a fluid, effortless, satisfactory working group.
IL: Right.
DH: Then we had an intermediate stage before we flew the Lancs, we were flying Manchesters, because the layout of the Manchester, althought only two engines, was the same as in the Lancaster. It was easier for pilots. Then we were posted to number 44 (Rhodesia) Squadron which was the first squadron ever to have Lancasters off the production line. Althought that was some while before I joined them.
IL: Gosh.
DL: There afterwards, after a tour of operations, I went as anb instructor to OTU Chipping Warden in Oxfordshire. It was nearly as dangerous to be an instructor on the OTU as it was flying on operations [laugh]. At least that’s the view I formed. Ultimately, of course, time went by, the second front happened. I wasn’t involved with bombing operations then. I went back after [emphasis] the second front was opened to 625 Squadron and completed sixteen trips, not quite allowing me to complete a second tour, of twenty this time instead of thirty, simply because the war ended. And I can only say that’s a broad statement, chronology of events that happened.
IL: So your first, your first tour, you did thirty operations?
DH: Yes, that was the requirement.
IL: OK, tell me a little bit about — tell me a little bit about what happened on a tour of operations. Tell me about the places you visited. Tell me about the first tour.
DH: Well, that list I’ve given you has got it. Not that one. One of the others. Didn’t I give it to you? Didn’t I give you —
IL: It’s here.
DH: Oh yes, yes, the others. Now there are a number of people around who would say, ‘Forty-six? I’ve done ninety.’ But of course they couldn’t have done it unless they were in at the start of the war. Well, they didn’t contribute very much because very often, because they couldn’t find the targets on the continent so easily and, of course, many of the support second front trips were very small, maybe an hour and a half ,and some people have counted those as whole operations. You can knock up a fair number like that but if you look at my [emphasis] list you will see here that, whilst the first are all the Ruhr, measuring five or six hours each time, but when it got down to a bit later in that, when the winter came along, these hours were going up, 7.30, 7.55, ‘cause they were long trips, right, and then you can see here three Berlins. The shortest was 5.50. There was special reasons for that, the weather was thoroughly dud . None of the defences couldn’t get off the ground so we went the shortest way rather than the long way round. But here you see, on this second tour, these places: Misburg [?], Zeitz, Pölitz, Chemnitz.
IL: All much more East Germany.
DH: Yes. 8.25 hours. And there is one on here, we were at the very maximum, 10.55, a low level operational on a transformer station in Italy but because the night hours were insufficient to come back over enemy territory, too dangerous, we went on to land in North Africa, deliberately, it was planned that way, and then when we could get back (although the weather was bad for a week or so) we bombed Leghorn on the way back and taking off from where we were, in North Africa, Blida. And then again, so these all were fairly long trips.
IL: Absolutely.
DH: It’s not like a fighter pilot, going up for a maximum of half an hour and landing because he was either out of petrol, munitions or both. We couldn’t. The moment we entered over the continent the Germans were after us all the way out to the target and all the way back. It was a very, very, harassing situation altogether and very, very wearing, to such an extent that, when I first went to 44 (Rhodesia) Squadron they said, ‘You won’t be on operations for a couple of days. Get used to flying around the countryside, Lincoln countryside, see where we are.’ And we did that but at night, of course, there were empty beds, increasingly every night, and I suddenly realised there was absolutely no future in this at all. I wasn’t going to live more that two or three trips. That was my opinion and hence, postwar, when I came to write that book, that’s where the title “No Future” comes from.
IL: Absolutley. So, how did —? Just sort of describe that sort of —? How you came to terms with that sort of —? How does someone come to terms with ‒?
DH: Danger?
IL: With fatalism, you know —?
DH: You get used to it. It comes under a well-known phrase in the RAF, “getting flak-happy”. If you get a lot thrown up at you and you get through it to start with, and you always get through, so you acheive some kind of strange kind of optimism and the view that, ‘Whoever’s going to get shot down it won’t be me, it will be the other chap’.
IL: Right.
DH: Fatalism, yes, but rather a strange kind of optimism as well.
IL: And did you ever feel frightened? Did you ever — you know?
DH: Yes, yes. This North African trip we bombed Reggio there satisfactorily but we passed over an unknown defended area on the Italian coast, going across to Sardinia [?] across the Mediterranean, and they chewed us up a bit and on that occasion the pilot was throwing the airplane around like nobody’s business and all my navigational instruments slid off the table onto the floor, and the one moment that they slid onto the floor and I bent down to pick them up there was a horrid grafting bang right beside me or behind me, and shocked to find there was a great big hole in the fuselage. My own instrument board in front of me was smashed. If I had been in normal posture, sitting up at my table, it’d have taken my head off at the neck so that was the reason to be shocked. But having got over it I realised I’d got a guardian angel somewhere and forever after that I seized to worry about anything.
IL: Amazing. So how — how did you — you know? Obviously you mentioned earlier when you were chatting about that people couldn’t, you know, navigators, aimers, people couldn’t find targets and things in the early days of the war. What was different for when you were there? What were the improvements?
DH: 1943 when I went on the squadron they had already experienced Mark 1 GEE, a system of fixing your position on the ground by radar.
IL: Right.
DH: It was very unreliable and you often had to kick it to get it to work even but by the time I got on the squadron we got Mark 2 GEE which was much more reliable and useful. It helped us fix our position before we got to the enemy coast so we could recalculate as navigators the real [emphasis] wind velocity —
IL: Yeah.
DH: — and speed, and we were then able to adjust the forecast winds accordingly from there onwards, to give us more of a chance to get further into Germany accurately. And then, of course, later that year there was a new thing came along called H2S which gave you a plan of the ground. Rays were transmitted from the dome at the rear of the Lancaster under the — just under, near the mid-upper turret there’s a bulge. It transmitted from there, hit the ground, sent back pulses which would put a blip on your screen or a number of towns, must a blip. No names on them of course but in conjunction with dead reckoning navigation we were mostly able to decide which town that would be. In the Ruhr there were so many towns. That was where the problem was. You couldn’t tell which was which, right, because it was like one big industrial blob. But it did have its drawbacks. We went down to obstensibly to go to Pilsen, in Czechoslokavia, and we bombed and there was tremendous fires, a marvellous thing, suitable for the occasion, so to speak, but it turned out not to be Pilsen at all. It was this place here. Where the devil is it? Oh, I can’t find it. Pölitz.
IL: Oh, Pölitiz. Yeah.
DH: Pölitz. It seemed we’d done a wonderful job, nobody knew it was there, or at least all the armaments and that that were there. We did a good trick but we never found Pilsen. Why? Because it was the topography of woodland and hills and that masked the fact that Pilsen was there. So nothing’s perfect.
IL: No, absolutely.
DH: But it helped.
IL: Yeah.
DH: Considerably.
IL: So how, in terms of — when you were briefed on targets, what were you — what were the targets, you know? We’ll talk again about Dresden, you know, aftermath and things like that but were you always —? Did you think you were targeting always — it was, sort of, you were always targeting industrial complexes? Or was there ever a realisation that this was —
DH: They were mostly, as far as I know, industrial complexes and the fact that a lot of people got killed at the same time was unfortunate because they lived near their working space. So if their factory got blown up so does some of the people that lived around that area. It’s inevitable in war. You can’t do much else about that.
IL: OK, tell me a bit about some of the people who were part of your crew.
DH: Well, Burness is the star. A New Zealander who was a first [emphasis] class pilot. Considering the amount, small [emphasis] amount, of training you had before you had before you got onto operations, he was a first class pilot but he couldn’t accept anything that wasn’t acceptable. He was a shrewd, shrewd fellow but also quite a hard one. He once — we were doing some air-firing off Skegness on one occasion, practising, and he swept in over the coast and went right over a group of naval cadets on the forecourt and they all had to fall down, as they claimed they’d had been knocked down. We were pretty well at nought feet. Now he did that and when we got back there’d already been a complaint. Now they’d picked up the squadron letters but they hadn’t picked up the aircraft [emphasis] letter but the Squadron Leader Shorthouse, who was the flight commander then, said, ‘Bernie,’ he said, ‘That was you. The Navy is complaining,’ and he said, ‘Well, what’s the matter?’ He said, ‘They were forced to fall to save their lives, to fall to the ground to escape this aircraft coming in fast and furious over the top of them.’ He said, ‘Damn bad discipline, that!’ [Laugh] But he couldn’t be broke. He fell out with the group captain and he wouldn’t be told. He was strong, a first class pilot, but he knew that he had to defer to me. On one occasion we went down to one of these long trips, seven or eight hours, the weather was dirt, and it was the time when they broadcast from home, Meteology broadcast, revised winds, as they calculated them, but I said to him one day, I said, ‘They broadcast winds saying we’ve got to use seventy-five miles an hour.’ I said, ‘That’s rubbish. They’re a hundred and fifty miles. I know I got a proper fix.’ He said, ‘Well, what are you asking me for? You’re the bloody navigator!’ So I ignored the broadcast winds and went round. We found the target. There wasn’t much activity but it was the target. And we came back, hardly any aircraft anywhere. Usually you used to get a slip-stream, from an aircraft in front of you, absolutely nothing. We were an hour back before the next aircraft in Bomber Command simply because we hadn’t gone all over Germany, right, by false wind forecasts? And the group captain said to Bernie, he said, ‘You haven’t been to the target Burness.’ Because bear in mind they didn’t like each other. ‘OK,’ he said, ‘Come on chaps,’ he said, ‘ We’re going to get something to eat and go to bed.’ So we did. There was a hell-of-a shemozzle the next day because they hadn’t got any intelligence report from us. Right? So was the aircraft missing? Where’s the intelligence report? So it had to be explained and when asked by the commander at base, Scampton it was, ‘Why didn’t you go to briefing? Why didn’t you deliver an intelligence report?’ Bernie said, ‘Well, we hadn’t been to the target according to what the group captain, Sir, so no intelligence report was possible.’ That caused a storm. The offending officer was court-martialled as a result of it because we were able — . They back-tracked all my plots, couldn’t find anything wrong with it. They checked the engine consumption to see if we’d flogged the engines to get home quickly, nothing wrong with that. But above all things, the absolute wonder if the moment, we’d got an aiming point photograph of the target, which was taken automatically when the bombs went down and it wasn’t a good night but there wasn’t too much fire and flame, which very often obscured what could otherwise be a decent photograph, right, so we were totally exonerated, absolutley and completely, and the officer concerned was treated as he should have been treated. I believe he was court-martialled and sent to the middle east, taken down to wing commander but that’s a little bit private that bit , but I don’t care, I’m passed caring now anyway. But these were the sort of things that had to be contended with on some occasions. I never suffered like some did, any harsh reaction after I stopped operations, and when I went back to civvy life and worked for a good many years until I retired, only then did it come and smack me right in the face, all of a sudden I got all sorts of think-back feelings, I forget what the word is, looking back.
IL: Post traumatic stress.
DH: Post traumatic stress and that was terrible. And I thought, ‘Well the only thing I can do is put it down on paper,’ and that’s when I wrote that book after I retired from my civil job after the war.
IL: So what did you do as a job after the war?
DH: I was at Lloyds of London.
IL: Oh right.
DH: Yeah and er, but that didn’t solve the problem in itself because I started getting calls from the BBC to talk on radio, because we lived in Cornwall then. I’d retired and then they started asking me to do after dinner speeches. That didn’t relieve it, not a bit. Until the book was published, properly, it got around, all of a sudden it died away. I haven’t had anything since, just like that. Something spurred it, I don’t know quite what it was. Such are the frailties of human nature, one way or another.
IL: So what sort of things were happening to you just at the time when, you know —?
DH: Well, what sort of things why I might have been affected? Well, it’s quite something when you see an aircraft shot down in flames on your starboard beam or on —, you see one explode in the air right in front of you, all that kind of thing, you saw it so often and you began to think, ‘I’m going to get that one of these days.’ But we didn’t.
IL: So were there any other interesting people on your crew?
DH: Er, they all had their own facets, most notable I think is probably the popsies they chased in their off duty hours.
IL: This is the sort of thing we need to talk about.
DH: Yeah, but they were, of course, integrated thoroughly. They knew what to do and did it well and we didn’t — we weren’t completely ousted [?]. We did shoot down two or three night fighters which was quite something because you rarely saw a night fighter in total darkness, he saw you first . He could see your exhaust fumes from four engines. That told the Germans it was an English bomber so he could come up underneath and fire up. You couldn’t see underneath, right, so you just had to keep out of the way and that kind of thing.
IL: So would you have seen night fighters on most of the night missions?
DH: Yes, yeah.
IL: Gosh. Mm.
DH: Not in its full shape.
IL: No.
DH: But it was there, you knew it was there, and later in the war they did develop a radar thing operated by the radar operator, though I can’t think of it now, which showed if you were being trailed by an airplane, put it like that. But probably the most interesting thing about it all to me was how I got my commission.
IL: Yes, please tell me about it.
DH: Is that worth listening to?
IL: Yes, of course.
DH: Well, in those days, when you qualified in your particular trade, say navigator or pilot, you were made a sergeant, only a sergeant, and we took our sergeant’s rank to squadrons, and eventually to flight sergeant, but by then a number of the crews, straight from training, without experience, were coming in as commissioned ranks. They started commissioning by er, during, after training. We missed all that and it kind of rose up one night at a briefing, 44 Squadron, when Wing Commander Nettleton VC was briefing us for an operation and, like he always said, he drew attention by to the most senior crew by way of saying, ‘Look, if they’ve survived, why shouldn’t you?’ Right, now when they said “Flight Sergeant Burness” there was a lot of the new bods who looked up in a bit of astonishment, ‘Flight Sergeant Burness will lead the squadron tonight.’ It didn’t mean anything because you went indepentently. But sitting at the table, as it happened, were one or two of the big-wigs from Scampton, seeing how we were conducting our briefing, I suppose, or rather our management was. There were one or two covert chaps down the table when he said this. The next morning we were called to — yeah, the wing commander’s office. He said, ‘Do you want a commission?’ ‘Do you want a commission?’ We’d never thought about it really. He said, ‘Right.’ We did sort of hesitate for a moment because we thought well it won’t make much difference to the pay, though the mess bills would be bigger. He said, ‘Right, get into Lincoln. It’s been arranged with the tailors. You’re back in the mess, the officer’s mess, by tonight. You should be clothed properly in your new uniforms.’ And I think I —. The pilot didn’t achieve that because it had to go through the New Zealand Air Force pattern. So I had to attend at the mess that night and I wasn’t very happy about it, of course, but there it happened. And it made it easier for me when I went as an instructer, you know, it was a bit more listening went on, and it showed that whilst the operational features were first class, they were well planned, the administration wasn’t so good. Now why should they forget about those people, or were they hoping they’d all get wiped out before they needed to commission them, right?
IL: I suppose that’s true of a lot of them. Didn’t they? We talked about earlier about the lack of recognition that Bomber Command had. Tell me a little bit about your thoughts on — put your thoughts on tape.
DH: I’ve already said some, haven’t I? But that wasn’t on tape.
IL: But that wasn’t on tape.
DH: Well, it was my view we had Winston Churchill, as good a commander as he was during wartime, he was responsible for not giving Bomber Command the proper credit for its acheivements because he hoped to be the first peace-time Prime Minister, and he didn’t want to go looking for that position thought of as a warmonger or anything like that. Political, it was. So Arthur Harris, head of Bomber Command, got blamed for hitting the wrong targets, like Dresden, for example. Well, of course, it was never his decision. It had to come from the top. He, Arthur Harris, wasn’t allowed to bomb who he felt he should do. He had a pattern [?] from the Air Council and the Prime Minister. So we all thought in my area, although he’d been a good war commander, he let us down at the end because it should have been recognised that Bomber Command did, as it was expected to do, pretty well win the war because our troops and the American troops, being conscripts, were not up to the standard of the German army. They didn’t have much chance of getting on to the French [unclear] unless they were helped very very considerably indeed, and of course they were by Bomber Command, because we bombed all his supplies, so he couldn’t bring his troops up to — force us back into the sea as would in [unclear] have happened and he says, ‘my few.’ I’m firm about that. I’ve thought about it a lot and so, of course, he didn’t get his seat, as the Prime Minister. I would think all Bomber Command voted against him. Right, now then, what else was there to add to that do you think?
IL: Whatever. You were talking about Dresden as a target. That it wasn’t the innocent target that has been portrayed.
DH: No, it wasn’t.
IL: And you also mentioned, you know, your experiences of arguing with people on the radio. These are all useful things.
DH: Er, yes. Well, Dresden, of course, wasn’t the classic [emphasis] city that people like to think of it, as solely classic, and it’s a shame to break the buildings downs, but it housed the centre of the German Eastern command for fighting the Russians, and also had started making precision instruments that had been knocked out of the Ruhr by Bommber Command, and they built them down in Desden where it was thought it might be safe and also at Yalta, as I remember, this President Roosevelt, Josef Stalin and Churchill agreed to help the Russians and that was put in place by the Royal Air Force under the command of Winston Churchill, to bomb Dresden. So there isn’t much argument about this. That’s what happened but no one likes to think they couldn’t be stopped, like some of the people came on the radio after the war saying, ‘The war was nearly over. Why did we have to smash Dresden?’ Well, of course, it wasn’t known at that time that the war was nearly over. It collapsed rather sooner than expected and, in any case, her view, of this particular woman I’m thinking of, wouldn’t have been respected by those who lived in London with V2s falling all around them and smashing them to bits. So it was well justified and I think that’s about as much as I’d like to say about that, right?
IL: OK, but you’ve had some recognition recently.
DH: Oh, you mean the clasp. Well, yes, I was publicly presented with that by Air Vice Marshall Pat O’Reilly, retired, in the King’s Arms Hotel, Melksham. I didn’t really want to attend but the RAF Association thought I wasn’t doing the proper thing by opting out so I went along and, well, it was a social occasion which happened with a severe background to it, of course. It was a late [emphasis] recognition of Bomber Command without achieving much in the way of expense and that was, had a lot to do with it.
IL: Have you been to the new Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park?
DH: No. I’ve thought of it. I’ve been a very busy man actually. I haven’t really had time to do much. You’ve caught me at a time now when I’m tolerably free. I could go up tomorrow I suppose.
IL: You say you’ve been a busy man. What sort of things have you done after the war then Des, as well as obviously working?
DH: Well, a lot of book work. I did do some work for a City of London organisation after the war, by post. I done it for a fair few years. I’ve given it up now. It was taking up too much of my time and —. But in general mobility is not as good as it used to be though I get about alright. But I’m now more thinking where am I going to get a good meal next and which pub shall I go to?
IL: Sounds good to me.
DH: Yeah, well I find, and it’s not so silly as it sounds, but I go and I join a group of us oldies. We indulge in intelligent conversation over lunch and, in my humble view, that’s the only thing that’s really left for very elderly people. You can’t do much except use your brains, be friendly with people, discuss perhaps the situation in the world today, try and fight it’s battles without much success because the younger ones aren’t listening, right, or can’t listen, one or the other. And so we enjoy our food while putting the world to rights, in theory.
IL: What —? Tell us a little bit about how you socialised during the war. What sort of — what was the social life like between operations?
DH: At the bar. Briefly, that’s about it. Occasionally we would wallop off into Lincoln but you always did the same thing there. You went into The Snake Pit as they called The Saracen’s Head in Lincoln. It was known as The Snake Pit ‘cause it was thought there were more German spies in there than anywhere else in the country and so you could only have a drink. You didn’t drink too much generally but you did rather absorb a bit of it. It wasn’t bad. You didn’t do much except for one thing, one good thing, we used to get week’s leave every six weeks, phenominal, until it started getting down to three weeks because so many people in front of you had not come back from ops, you moved up the rosta. So we were getting a lot of leave by way of easing the situation.
IL: How did you cope with not — the people, how did you cope with people not returning? People that you — or were these people you didn’t know or you were just socialising with your crew or was this something that you just accepted?
DH: You accept it very quickly because you knew it’s inevitable, that this sort of thing will happen. The losses in — the worst part of the war in Bomber Command was ’43, ’44, as you know, were pretty fantastic. Of over 75,000 employed, 56,000 were fatal, er, casualties, and that doesn’t augur for a particularly friendly future. So you just have to accept it. ‘There’s a war on,’ was an old expression we used to use. It can be used in many circumstances, ‘There’s a war on.’
IL: Right, can you stop for a second?
DH: At the end of the war as the war ceased all our aeroplanes were grounded so there was nothing to do, utter boredom, ONUE [?] by the bucketful and one got fed up with getting up in the morning, breakfasting, walking down to the flights to see if there was anything, walking back because there was nothing, day after day. There was only one way to handle this, to get released. But of course, if you were relatively young, you were the later ones to be released. They asked, it was a combination of age and service, actually, carried out and so I, like most others, got released as soon as I could, went into Civvy Street, got going, but even in the City of London, the pay was pretty poor, and it was not as much as I needed. I’d been earning more in the services and so I rejoined the RAFVR, I resigned my emergency commsission and took on a reconstituted commission but I had to go in at a lower rank. So, instead of flight lieutenant, as I was, it was flying officer. But that was reinstituted, your original substantive rank, was reinstituted about a year later. And I did four years flying around at weekends, on Anson aircraft, of all things, and for a fortnight during the summer months, for which you duly got a day’s pay plus flying pay, which was substantial, which helped me with my reintroduction to civil life. And then at the end of that four years I felt I’d truly had enough and resigned again, finally, but before that I was granted, because I’d done all of that, I was granted my substantive rank of flight lieutenant for life. End of story.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Desmond Hawkins
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:46:44 audio recording
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ian Locker
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-01
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHawkinsDH151001
Description
An account of the resource
Desmond Hawkins volunteered for the Royal Air Force and became a navigator. After training on Wellingtons and Manchesters, he flew Lancasters for 44 Squadron and completed a tour of operations. He was commissioned as flight lieutenant and after the tour was posted to an Operational Training Unit at RAF Chipping Warden as an instructor. He then completed a further sixteen operations with 625 Squadron. He talks about the development of radar. He also mentions some of the operations to the Ruhr, Berlin, Italy and Czechoslovakia as well as a particularly long flight that led to landing in Blida, North Africa. Then carrying out a bombing operation from there on Leghorn, where his aircraft was attacked and damaged. After the war he went to work in the City of London but rejoined the Royal Air Force for four years. He wrote a book called 'No Future'.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Christine Kavanagh
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
Italy
England--Lincolnshire
England--Northamptonshire
Germany--Berlin
Italy--Livorno
North Africa
Slovakia
Czech Republic
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943
44 Squadron
625 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
coping mechanism
Gee
grief
H2S
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
Manchester
navigator
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
radar
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/156/1959/NLesterR160704-01.2.jpg
ff0bcd2e2aeca54fc1ecd15a5ebc550d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cushway, Arthur
A W Cushway
Description
An account of the resource
55 items. This collection concerns Sergeant Arthur William Cushway (1913 - 1942, 1285306 Royal Air Force). Arthur Cushway was a wireless operator / air gunner and was killed when his Stirling from RAF Waterbeach failed to return from an operation to Hamburg. The collection contains a photograph album, his service record and 52 photographs. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rosemary Lester and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.<br /><br />Additional information on Arthur Cushway is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/206596/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cushway, AW
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] Latest Prices [/underlined]
WEDNESDAY, JULY 29, 1942
[box] BLACK OUT 10.39 p.m. to 5.35 a.m. MOON RISES 10.50p.m. New Moon, Aug. 12 RADIO Page Six [/box]
LATE NIGHT [box] THE STAR [/box] No. 16,885 ONE PENNY
STRONG FORCE RAID HAMBURG
Pilots Fly Below Clouds, Start Big Fires
32 R.A.F. BOMBERS ARE MISSING
"HAMBURG WAS AGAIN ATTACKED LAST NIGHT BY A STRONG FORCE OF BOMBERS" SAID THE AIR MINISTRY THIS AFTERNOON.
"There was much cloud over the target and many aircraft attacked from a low level. Large fires were seen.
"Aerodromes in the Low Countries were also bombed. Thirty-two bombers are missing.
"Two enemy fighters were destroyed yesterday by Coastal Command aircraft on patrol, one by a Sunderland and the other by a Beaufighter."
A number of the bombers' crews flew below the clouds in face of fierce opposition to bomb Hamburg.
The port had its heaviest raid on Sunday night, when 175,000 incendiaries were dropped on the port in 35 minutes as a prelude to an attack with high explosives.
As our bombers headed for their target last night, Air Marshal Harris, Chief of Bomber Command, was broadcasting this warning to the eGrman [sic] people :- "We are going to scourge the Third Reich from end to end. You have no chance. Soon we shall be coming every night and every day, rain, blow or snow - we are [sic] the Americans.
Fighter Pilots Wreck Nazi Trains and Ships. - Back Page.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Strong force raid Hamburg
Description
An account of the resource
Description of an operation to Hamburg where 32 bombers were missing.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-07-29
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One newspaper cutting
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
NLesterR160704-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Hamburg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
The Star
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-07-28
1942-07-29
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Dianne Kinsella
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
missing in action
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/167/2357/SAllenDJ1880966v10011.1.jpg
3462862ec2a6819c883d442e7d95d86e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Allen, Derrick
Derrick Allen
D J Allen
Description
An account of the resource
75 items. The collection covers the career of Flight Sergeant Derrick John Allen (1880966 Royal Air Force) who was a mid-upper gunner on 467 Royal Australian Air Force Squadron at RAF Waddington in 1944-45. Collection contains his logbook, Royal Air Force documentation, notes on air gunners course and photographs of various aircrew. Collection also contains maps and photographs covering the loss of his Lancaster near Spa in Belgium from which he successfully bailed out on 2 November 1944. There is also an oral history interview with his family.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Judy Hodgson and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Allen, DJ
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] POSTAGRAM [/underlined]
Originator’s Reference Number:-
BC/S.23191/P.
To: 1880966 Sergeant D.J. ALLEN,
No. 467 Squadron,
R.A.F. Station, WADDINGTON.
Date:-
26th January, 1945.
From: The Commander-in-Chief, Bomber Command.
My warmest congratulations on the award of your Conspicuous Gallantry Medal.
A.T. Harris
[underlined] Air Chief Marshal. [/underlined]
[inserted Paper Cutting]
Mr. D. J. ALLEN, R.A.F., the second son of The Council Houses, Stilton, volunteered for the R.A.F. and has been passed for flying crews. His many friends wish him the best of luck.
[inserted Paper Cutting]
SERGT. AIR GUNNER DERRICK ALLEN, R.A.F., now stationed at Waddington, Lincoln, has the immediate award of the Conspicuous Galantry [sic] Medal. He is the second son of Mr. J. S. Allen, of the Council Houses, Stilton. This is his second promotion.
[inserted Paper Cutting]
The Engagement is announced between Lavinia, eldest daughter of Mr. and Mrs. A. Colbert, Ermine Lodge, Stilton, and Flt./Sergt. D. J. Allen, C.G.M., second son of the Late Mr. and Mrs. J. S. Allen, Stilton.
[inserted Paper Cutting]
COMING-OF-AGE
ALLEN. – Congratulations and best wishes to Derrick on attaining his majority, October 13th 1945. - Love, Lavinia.
[inserted Paper Cutting]
Gallantry in Blazing Plane.
Rescued Trapped Comrade
Local Airman Awarded C.G.M.
THIS is what happened to Sgt. Derrick J. Allen, R.A.F.V.R., 467 (R.A.A.F.) Squadron, of Peterborough, one night last November when he was mid-upper gunner aboard a bomber which attacked Dusseldorf.
During the operation the aircraft was attacked by a fighter and was hit by bursts of machine-gun fire. A second attack followed and again the aircraft was hit, the port outer engine catching fire. All efforts to extinguish the flames were unavailing and the machine dived out of control. The captain ordered his crew to “abandon aircraft.” but the rear gunner was unable to open his turret doors. Completely disregarding his own safety, Sgt. Allen promptly went to then assistance of his comrade. The aircraft was on fire and falling rapidly, nevertheless, Sgt. Allen hacked away with an axe at the turret doors and finally succeeded in freeing the rear gunner.
Just as Sgt. Allen got ready to jump the aircraft broke in two. He fell clear, pulled the rip-cord of his parachute and descended safely.
CONSPICUOUS GALLANTRY MEDAL.
The full story of this exploit is told for the first time this week in an Air Ministry communication which reveals that Sgt. Allen has now been awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Metal. The citation describes him as a gallant airman who, in the face of extreme danger, displayed conduct in keeping with the best traditions of the Royal Air Force.
Sgt. Allen was born in 1924 at Peterborough and before enlisting in 1943 was a carpenter.
[inserted Paper Cutting]
Mid-Air Rescue In Blazing Plane
AN R.A.F.V.R. sergeant who freed a comrade trapped in the rear-gunner’s turret while their blazing aircraft was falling rapidly and jumped to safety just as the plane broke in two, has been awarded the conspicuous gallantry medal. He is Sergeant Derrick John Allen, whose home is near Peterborough.
Allen was the mid-upper gunner in an aircraft detailed to attach Dusseldorf. The plane was struck by a burst of machine-gun fire from an enemy aircraft and one of the engines caught fire.
The crew struggled to put out the flames but the plane lost height and dived out of control. As the position had become hopeless, the captain ordered his crew to abandon the aircraft.
The rear gunner was unable to open his turret doors and Allen, ignored the danger, hacked away at the doors with an axe and freed the gunner. Just as Allen got ready to jump, the plane broke in two, but he managed to make a safe descent.
[inserted Paper Cutting]
Plane On Fire, Saved Comrade
Award to Gunner
An R.A.F.V.R. sergeant who freed a comrade trapped in the rear-gunner’s turret while their blazing was falling rapidly and jumped to safety just as the plane broke in two has been awarded the Conspicuous Galantry [sic] Medal. He is Sgt. Derrick John Allen, whose home is near Peterborough.
Allen was the mid-upper gunner in an aircraft detailed to attack Dusseldorf. The plane was struck by a burst of machine-gun fire from an enemy aircraft and one of the engines caught fire.
The crew struggled to put out the flames, but the plane lost height and dived out of control. As the position had become hopeless, the captain ordered his crew to abandon the aircraft.
The rear-gunner was unable to open his turret doors and Allen, ignored the danger, hacked away at the turret doors with an axe and freed the gunner. Just as Allen got ready to jump, the plane broke in two, but he managed to make a safe descent.
[inserted Paper Cutting]
CITY AIRMAN’S C.G.M.
Sgt. Derrick J. Allen, R.A.F.V.R, of No. 467 (R.A.A.F.) Squadron, a former Peterborough carpenter, has been awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal.
He stayed behind in a blazing bomber to free a trapped comrade, and was still in the aircraft when it broke in two. He fell clear and landed by parachute. He fell clear and landed by parachute. He was mid-upper gunner aboard a bomber which attacked Dusseldorf one night in November, when the plane was attacked by an enemy fighter and set on fire.
With complete disregard for his own safety, Sgt. Allen promptly went to the assistance of a comrade. “The aircraft was now on fire and falling rapidly”, says the official report. “Nevertheless, this gallant airman hacked away at the turret doors with an axe and finally succeeded in freeing his comrade. Just as Sgt. Allen got ready to jump, the aircraft broke in two. He fell clear, however, pulled the rip cord of his parachute and descended safely. In the face of extreme danger this airman displayed conduct in keeping with the best traditions of the Royal Air Force.”
Sgt. Allen was born at Peterborough in 1924, and now lives in the district. He enlisted in the R.A.F. in 1943.
[inserted Paper Cutting]
Conspicuous Gallantry Medal (Flying)
Sgt. D. J. ALLEN, R.A.F.V.R. No. 467 (R.A.A.F.) Sqn. – This airman was the mid-upper gunner in an aircraft detailed to attack Dusseldorf one night in November, 1944. During the operation the aircraft was attacked by a fighter. Sgt. Allen opened fire, but the enemy aircraft closed in and the bomber was struck by a burst of machine gun fire which caused much damage. A second attack followed and again the aircraft was hit. The port outer engine caught fire. All efforts to extinguish the flames were unavailing. Later, the aircraft lost height and then dived out of control. The position became hopeless and the captain ordered his crew to abandon aircraft. The rear gunner was unable to open his turret doors and was trapped. With complete disregard for his own safety, Sgt. Allen promptly went to the assistance of his comrade. The aircraft was now on fire and falling rapidly. Nevertheless, this gallant airman hacked away at the turret doors with an axe and finally succeeded in freeing his comrade. Just as Sgt. Allen got ready to jump, the aircraft broke in two. He fell clear, however, pulled the rip cord of his parachute and descended safely. In the face of extreme danger this airman displaying conduct in keeping with the best traditions of the Royal Air Force.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Accounts of actions leading to award of Conspicuous Gallantry medal and other congratulatory material
Description
An account of the resource
At the top a postagram congratulating Derrick Allen on his award of Conspicuous Gallantry Medal signed A T Harris. Six newspaper cuttings giving various accounts of actions in releasing rear gunner from jammed turret while Lancaster dives out of control. One cutting noting that Derrick Allen volunteered for the RAF and has been accepted for aircrew; another congratulating him on gaining his majority; a further cutting announces his engagement.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-01-26
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One telegram and nine newspaper cuttings mounted on an album page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SAllenDJ1880966v10011
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
1944-11-02
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Peterborough
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Baldwin
467 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bale out
Conspicuous Gallantry Medal
crash
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
shot down
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/109/2425/LGreenLC1318527v.1.pdf
b5e686d98ddbb0320085b55c6d541553
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Green, Leonard
Len Green
L C Green
Description
An account of the resource
Twelve items. The collection relates to the service of Warrant Officer Leonard C Green (1318527 Royal Air Force) and consists of his log book, correspondence, a newspaper cuttings, four photographs and a foreign languages phrase book. Leonard Green flew Lancasters with 50 and 61 Squadrons from RAF Skellingthorpe and completed 19 daylight and night time operations.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Mark Boother and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-01
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Green, LC
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leonard Green’s navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LGreenLC1318527v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Description
An account of the resource
Navigator's air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book for Flight Sergeant Leonard Green, wireless operator, covering the period from 15 December 1942 to 20 January 1946. He was stationed at RAF Manby, RAF Wigtown, RAF Bitteswell, RAF Bruntingthorpe, RAF Swinderby, RAF Syerston, RAF Skellingthorpe and RAF Coningsby. Aircraft flown in were, Dominie, Proctor, Anson, Wellington, Manchester and Lancaster. He flew a total of 23 operations, 13 night with 50 Squadron and 3 day and 7 night with 61 Squadron. He also flew operations Exodus with 61 Squadron and Dodge to Bari, Italy with 83 Squadron. Targets were, Hannover, Dusseldorf, Modane, Berlin, Leipzig, Frankfurt, Brunswick, Magdeburg, Bohlen, Gravenhorst, Dortmund-Emms Canal, Lutzkendorf, Wurzburg, Bremen, Wesel, Nordhausen and Molbis. His pilots on operations were Pilot Officer Lundy and Flight Lieutenant Phillips. The log book also contains many newspaper clippings relating to the targets attacked, aircraft flown in and events of the war and post war. It also contains pictures of the crew positions of Navigator, Bomb Aimer and Wireless Operator.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Scotland
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
France--Modane
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Würzburg
Italy--Bari
Scotland--Dumfries and Galloway
Germany--Böhlen
Germany--Braunschweig
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Nordhausen (Thuringia)
France
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1943-10-18
1943-11-03
1943-11-10
1943-11-11
1943-11-18
1943-11-19
1943-11-22
1943-11-26
1943-11-27
1943-12-02
1943-12-03
1943-12-20
1943-12-21
1943-12-29
1943-12-30
1944-01-02
1944-01-03
1944-01-14
1944-01-15
1944-01-20
1944-01-21
1944-01-21
1944-01-22
1945-02-19
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-02-24
1945-03-14
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-03-17
1945-03-22
1945-03-23
1945-04-04
1945-04-05
1945-04-06
1945-04-08
1945-04-09
1945-04-26
1945-05-06
1945-05-12
1945-05-14
1945-07-17
1945-09-09
1945-10-16
1945-10-20
1945-12-14
1945-12-20
1660 HCU
29 OTU
50 Squadron
61 Squadron
83 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing up
Cook’s tour
Dominie
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Manchester
military service conditions
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
Proctor
RAF Bitteswell
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Coningsby
RAF Manby
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigtown
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/187/2467/SMarshallS1594781v10031.1.jpg
127f75d875563164a3ceb15110f8de91
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marshall, Syd. Album
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Marshall, S
Description
An account of the resource
77 items. The album contains wartime and post-war photographs, newspaper cuttings, and memorabilia assembled by Warrant Officer Sidney Charles Marshall (1924 - 2017, 1594781 Royal Air Force). Syd Marshall was a flight engineer with 103 Squadron and flew operations from RAF Elsham Wolds.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Marshall and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-08
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
ELSHAM WOLDS’ GREAT PART IN BOMBING CAMPAIGN
Four Years of Magnificent Effort
ELSHAM Wolds began to operate with R.A.F. Bomber Command in July, 1941. The airfield was not quite completed when No. 103 Squadron arrived from Newton on July 11, but the Squadron soon settled in and has remained there ever since.
In nearly four years Elsham has built up a high reputation in the Royal Air Force. There was little delay before the airfield was placed on an operational basis and the Wellingtons were out on July 24, from 11 a.m. to 6.45 pm., attacking the battle cruiser “Gneisenau” at Brest.
Before long the Germans knew of the new bomber station, and in August, 1941, enemy aircraft attacked it. They did no serious damage. They tried again several times in later years, though never in strength.
The “Wimpeys” held the fort while the factories got busy with the production of the new four-engined bombers.
On September 10, 1941, Wellingtons flew to Turin for the loss of only one aircraft. By the end of December, Elsham was able to record as many as 17 Wellingtons airborne on a single night.
On one occasion two sergeants brought back their aircraft after four of the crew had baled out; a flare had caught alight in the rear fuselage.
AMONG THE 1,000
After taking part in the May and June 1,000 bomber raids in 1942, there was a lull.
Halifaxes began to arrive and in August made their first sorties from the station, against Dusseldorf. Hardly had the engineering staff accustomed themselves to these aircraft when there was another change, this time to Lancasters. By November 21 the Lancasters had replaced the Halifaxes and were doing excellently.
On the night of May 23-24, 1943, No. 103 Squadron put up 27 Lancasters, which at that time was a Command record.
The Commander-in-Chief, Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris, G.C.B., O.B.E., A.F.C., visited the station in September and addressed the crews.
One of the flights of No. 103 Squadron was transferred to No. 576 Squadron, which was being formed at Elsham. This left 103 a two-flight squadron. The two squadrons were together in close association and friendly rivalry until October, 1944.
OVER BERLIN
No. 103 Squadron had 30 aircraft over Berlin on the night of November 26-27. Elsham became a base station from December 1 and controlled the airfields at Kirmington and North Killingholme.
The wild weather of January, 1944, made life at Elsham what the R.A.F. call “pretty raw,” but the ground staff worked wonders in clearing blocked roads, and runways.
During the spring the Base Commander, Air Commodore Ivelaw Chapman, O.B.E., D.F.C., A.F.C., was shot down over France and taken prisoner. He has recently returned to this country. Air Commodore F.R.D. Swain, O.B.E., A.F.C., who broke the altitude record some years ago, took over from Air Commodore Chapman.
In June both squadrons at Elsham dropped a thousand tons in a month for the first time, and kept this up for some time. In the summer people in the neighbourhood were able to realise the full power of Bomber Command. Daylight operations against V sites, railway centres, and in close support of the Army enabled them to see the sky full of four-engined aircraft day after day.
In October, No. 103 Squadron dropped 1,277 tons, and 86 aircraft of both squadrons operated against Duisburg within 24 hours. On October 31, No. 576 Squadron left Elsham for Fiskerton. With 103 Squadron they had dropped 5,748 tons in the previous five months.
BOMBER COMMAND’S PRIDE
Elsham was the home of Lancaster “M.2,” the pride of Bomber Command. Its long life showed what a high standard of maintenance had been kept up. “M.2.” first flew on operations on May 4, 1943, to Dortmund, with 103 Squadron. It was later transferred to 576 Squadron, and had been on 103 operations by the beginning of 1944. It was retired with 144 trips to its credit, 97 of them to Germany and 15 to Berlin.
During the last winter everyone at Elsham was working at full stretch, and the Lancasters were fully employed on targets like the Ruhr, Ludwigshafen, Nuremburg, Munich, Chemnitz, and Dresden. Many mines were laid in enemy waters.
For the last month of operations No. 103 Squadron was joined by No. 100 Squadron from Waltham (Grimsby), and both were in the attack on Berchtesgaden on April 25.
When there was no more bombing to be done, large convoys of Army vehicles began to drive up to the station. They carried food for the Lancasters to take to Holland. Another task was to bring back hundreds of freed prisoners of war from the Continent.
Many Elsham names will go down in history for acts of heroism. On May 4, 1944, an aircraft of No. 576 Squadron, captained by Pilot-Officer Reed, of Wellingborough, Northants, landed with the flight engineer helping Reed to hold the control column and the air bomber clinging to the rudder pedals. The Lancaster looked a total wreck. It had been shot up by a fighter over Mailly-le-Camp; it had caught fire, a large hole was knocked in the floor, electrical and navigational instruments were smashed, the rudders and elevators were damaged, and the rear-turret was hanging by a threat.
Two Lancaster from 103 Squadron were each attacked by two fighters on July 29, 1944, when bombing Stuttgart. All four of the enemy were destroyed in a couple of minutes.
Another 103 crew shot down a Ju. 88 over Karlsruhe on April 25, 1944, but sustained serious damage. The pilot had to ditch, and the crew were on the Goodwin Sands for seven hours before being picked up.
Just before the end of the war one of Elsham’s aircraft came back with a 250lb. bomb embedded in a wing. The pilot told the crew to bale out, and the baled out himself near base.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Elsham Wolds' Great Part in Bombing Campaign
Four years of Magnificent Effort
Description
An account of the resource
A history of 103 Squadron's operations at RAF Elsham Wolds.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One newspaper cutting on an album page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SMarshallS1594781v10031
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France--Brest
Italy--Turin
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Munich
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Dresden
Netherlands
France--Mailly-le-Camp
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Karlsruhe
France
Italy
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Govert J. van Lienden
100 Squadron
103 Squadron
576 Squadron
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
ditching
Gneisenau
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Ju 88
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Kirmington
RAF North Killingholme
rivalry
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/187/2509/SMarshallS1594781v10042.2.jpg
e9b7e563c283064519dbb24ad1d830be
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marshall, Syd. Album
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Marshall, S
Description
An account of the resource
77 items. The album contains wartime and post-war photographs, newspaper cuttings, and memorabilia assembled by Warrant Officer Sidney Charles Marshall (1924 - 2017, 1594781 Royal Air Force). Syd Marshall was a flight engineer with 103 Squadron and flew operations from RAF Elsham Wolds.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Marshall and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-08
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bomber Command reunion dinner and Syd Marshall
Description
An account of the resource
A ticket for the Bomber Command reunion at Grosvesnor House, 19th April 1980.
Full length photograph of Syd Marshall in a dinner jacket holding a tankard of beer,
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1980-04-19
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
A reunion ticket and one colour photograph on an album page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SMarshallS1594781v10042
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1980-04-19
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/187/2510/SMarshallS1594781v10043.2.jpg
cfd9b6699f93e7166d25d87756f783b8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marshall, Syd. Album
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Marshall, S
Description
An account of the resource
77 items. The album contains wartime and post-war photographs, newspaper cuttings, and memorabilia assembled by Warrant Officer Sidney Charles Marshall (1924 - 2017, 1594781 Royal Air Force). Syd Marshall was a flight engineer with 103 Squadron and flew operations from RAF Elsham Wolds.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Marshall and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-08
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bomber Command reunion dinner
Description
An account of the resource
A leaflet promoting the Bomber Command reunion dinner to be held at Grosvenor House, London on 19th April 1980.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1940-04-19
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One printed sheet on an album page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SMarshallS1594781v10043
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1980-04-19
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/187/2511/SMarshallS1594781v10044.2.jpg
573799aa8db41ff2acf1937fd6639cb8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marshall, Syd. Album
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Marshall, S
Description
An account of the resource
77 items. The album contains wartime and post-war photographs, newspaper cuttings, and memorabilia assembled by Warrant Officer Sidney Charles Marshall (1924 - 2017, 1594781 Royal Air Force). Syd Marshall was a flight engineer with 103 Squadron and flew operations from RAF Elsham Wolds.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Marshall and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-08
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bomber Harris feted by his men
Description
An account of the resource
Newspaper article detailing the dinner and reunion at Grosvenor House attended by 1400 members of Bomber Command.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Sunday Telegraph
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1980-04-19
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One newspaper cutting on an album page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Sunday Telegraph
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1980-04-19
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SMarshallS1594781v10044
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/187/2512/SMarshallS1594781v10045.1.jpg
1b8061311f67e80be607eb7d6b31a8c5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marshall, Syd. Album
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Marshall, S
Description
An account of the resource
77 items. The album contains wartime and post-war photographs, newspaper cuttings, and memorabilia assembled by Warrant Officer Sidney Charles Marshall (1924 - 2017, 1594781 Royal Air Force). Syd Marshall was a flight engineer with 103 Squadron and flew operations from RAF Elsham Wolds.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Marshall and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-08
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[photograph]
Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur “Bomber” Harris, 88, meeting “Forces Sweetheart” Dame Vera Lynn during the last London reunion dinner for members of Bomber Command.
Bomber Command
Marshall of the RAF Sir Arthur Harris was chief guest and principle speaker at the reunion dinner of Bomber Command held at Grosvenor House on Saturday. The toast to Sir Arthur, C.-in-C. Bomber Command 1942-45, was proposed by the Chairman, Air Marshall Sir Harold Martin, and a presentation made by Air Vice-Marshal D.C.T. Bennett, Pathfinder Force. Mr. Winston Churchill, PM, proposed the toast to the RAF and Air Chief Marshall Sir Michael Beetham replied. Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Constantine proposed the toast to the USAF. represented by Gen. John Pauly, Gen. Hunter Harris and Lt-Gen. Haywood Hansell, who responded, Air Chief Marshals Sir Lewis Hodges, Sir Douglas Lowe, Sir Thomas Prickett and Sir Augustus Walker, Air Marshals Sir John Whitley and J. Curtiss, Dame Vera Lynn and the widows of VC holders, Wing Commander Guy Gibson and Squadron Leader John Nettleton, were present.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sir Arthur Harris and Dame Vera Lynn
Description
An account of the resource
Newspaper article about the Bomber Command reunion dinner in April 1980, featuring a photograph of Sir Arthur Harris and Dame Vera Lynn.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1980-04
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two newspaper cuttings on an album page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SMarshallS1594781v10045
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1980-04
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Baldwin
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/187/2536/SMarshallS1594781v10076.1.jpg
cc841d0db89d4310be72cd15719c77b6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marshall, Syd. Album
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Marshall, S
Description
An account of the resource
77 items. The album contains wartime and post-war photographs, newspaper cuttings, and memorabilia assembled by Warrant Officer Sidney Charles Marshall (1924 - 2017, 1594781 Royal Air Force). Syd Marshall was a flight engineer with 103 Squadron and flew operations from RAF Elsham Wolds.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Marshall and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-08
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Tuesday, July 5, 1983
BOSTON CHOICE 3
NEW MUSEUM IN SPOTLIGHT
[Bold] County launches appeal for Bomber Command [/bold]
RAF Swinderby is leading the rest of Lincolnshire at the county makes it contribution towards the £2.5 million cost of the recently opened Bomber Command Museum at Hendon.
The station opened its account with £10,000 from last year’s open day – and has followed up with another £5,000, proceeds of the celebrity concert which followed the 1983 open day.
Says appeal director Group Captain Bill Randle: “We have had a marvellous support from Swinderby which is well ahead of the field.”
Opened by the Queen Mother in April, the new museum adjoining the RAF Museum has already collected £1 million towards its target, just 18 months after the appeal was launched.
And Bomber County people will have the chance to make their personal contributions when the appeal goes regional and visits Lincolnshire, probably at Christmas.
“This is the first time we have a regional appeal but we plan to spend three weeks in an area, basing ourselves at a local RAF station, mounting an exhibition and opening an office,” explains Bill Randle.
“We plan to contact local companies and organisations, Press, radio and TV. We shall also be selling Harris Certificates which commemorate Marshall of the RAF Sir Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris, the wartime chief of Bomber Command. They are issued to anyone donating more than £10.”
The new museum has added to the pulling over of the firmly established RAF museum, which records the history of the service from its earliest days, and the Battle of Britain Museum. And when the host RAF Hendon closes in 1985, it is planned the complex will become the largest national air museum in the world.
To sample the new display by the famous wartime command which made its “home” in Lincolnshire, LSG sent reporter Norman Bainbridge and photographer Bob Reding down to the North London Museums which attract 600,000 visitors a year.
Admission to the RAF Museum is free and the fee for the Bomber Command wing is £1 and 50p for pensioners and children.
[Heading] Quote [/heading]
“The focal point of Bomber Command was Lincolnshire. Geographically it was near to Germany, it was flat. That is why in Lincoln Cathedral you have the only true memorial to Bomber Command. Lincoln was the real centre of Bomber Command.” – Group Captain Bill Randle, Director of Appeals.
[Heading] The moment of terror… [/heading]
[Photograph of a bust of Sir Arthur Harris – inscription reads: A bust in the museum of Sir Arthur (Bomber) Harris, the wartime chief of Bomber Command, who attended the opening day before he celebrated his 91st birthday.]
IVOR [sic] Cole, was just 20 and a radio operator, was in a Lancaster bomber over Germany when he had his most frightening moment of the war.
“We were on a mining trip to the River Elb early one morning when we were jumped by a night-fighter.” he recalls.
“I picked this up on the fishpond (radar screen) and alerted the skipper. But the Junkers 88 came from below with his rigid guns and hit us in one wing.
“We opened fire almost simultaneously and although we never knew what happened, he made only one run at us and we got safely back to base.”
Base for Mr Cole, now a building trade representative living in Sturton Road, Saxilby, was the RAF Bomber Command station of Elsham Wolds.
During his raids on an ever-decreasing bombing area as the Allies pressed on towards Berlin, he witnessed some tragic mid-air collisions among the great numbers of Lancasters stacked at different levels.
He remembers; “I stood in the astrodome – the bubble of Perspex above my head – and suddenly I saw a Lancaster going along with one tail fin missing. Then I saw another with the propellers of two engines bent backward where they had sheared off the fin. The one with the fin damage was lost, the other got back”
“The Lancaster was a fine aircraft, the best I ever flew in and loved by everyone. It took a terrific amount of punishment,” he said.
[Heading] Lincolnshire legend lives on [/heading]
[Photograph of a Lancaster Bomber – inscription reads – A sight for Lincolnshire eyes… Lancaster S for Sugar which once stood guard at the gates of RAF Scampton.]
Press your nose against the plate-glass of the display window, shield your eyes and you can see why Lincolnshire became known as Bomber County.
Lining the back wall of the display at Hendon is a huge board listing Bomber Command’s order of battle and operation availability at 1800 hours on April 26, 1945.
Under No 5 Group (HQ, Morton Hall, Swinderby, near Lincoln) are the names of those war-time airfields, now indelibly imprinted in so many Lincolnshire memories: Bardney, Fulbeck, Metheringham, Skellingthorpe, Spilsby, Strubby, Wadington and Woodhall Spa.
The bottom line shows the groups strength that Spring evening 38 yars [sic] ago – 253 Lancasters, 14 Mosquitoes.
That, of course was only part of the country’s commitment to the RAF. To the north of Lincoln were the stations in Bomber Command’s No 1 group, based at Bawtry in North Notts, in other parts of Lincolnshire there were stations belonging to other commands.
Just a few feet from the order of battle are the uniform and decorations worn by Marshal of the RAF, Sir Arthur Harris. An accompanying panel traces his ride in the RAF to become Commander-in-Chief of Bomber Command in July 1942 and his early command of 5 Group, then at Grantham.
At the opening ceremony, of the museum Sir Arthur (Bomber) Harris stood with the Queen Mother as she unveiled a commemorative plaque on a wall of the pavilion that records Lincolnshire’s all-important contribution to the war.
Cross a few yards of blue carpet space and the visitor stands below the floodlight gun turrets of Lancaster bomber S for Sugar, one of the RAF’s most famous aircraft.
Today she is for many visitors the most popular aircraft exhibit in the museum, still scornfully displaying Herman Goering’s boast: “No enemy plane will fly over the Reich Territory.”
Painted in white on its engine air intakes are the names of four R5868 pilots, all holders of the DFC: P/O Tottenham, P/O McClelland, F/O McManus and F/O Colpus.
Scampton is again massively recalled by the inclusion in the museum of another AVRO, the Vulcan XL 318 which proudly carries the 617 (Dambusters) symbol on its fin. The aircraft spreads its 111-ft of awesome wingspan above the white painted floor as visitor’s necks crane to glimpse the towering cockpit. A sum of more than £100,000 was needed to put it on public view.
“The Vulcan cost us more than any other aircraft in the museum,” says Group Captain Bill Randle, director of appeals, “and then the Ministry of Defence put VAT on the bill. We had to pay not only the basic cost but dismantling and re-assembly.”
Swinderby is another local station remembered in the display. It was the base for the museum’s DH Mosquito T Mark 3, built in 1946 and in service until 1963. Affectionately known as the “wooden wonder” because of its balsa/plywood construction, the plane was used in the film 633 Squadron.
The museum also houses the only known survivor of the 11,461 Wellingtons built. This aircraft was produced as a Mark X variant in 1944 and was modified later for training purposes which took it to Swinderby in the late 1940s and early 1950s. It is now being restored to original condition with the fitting of a Frazer Nash front turret which personally cost Bill Randle £600. “It was worth it – it’s a beautiful turret,” he enthuses.
Other aircraft on display range from a replica of the 1917- designed Vickers Vimy heavy bomber, built during 1967-69 and flown in 1969 to mark the 50th anniversary of the historic Atlantic crossing flight by Alcock and Brown, to the Vickers Valiant XD 818 which dropped Britain’s first H Bomb during the Christmas Island tests in 1957.
But a highlight for every visitor is the wreckage of Halifax S for Sugar, recovered by RAF sub-aqua divers from the bed of late Hoklingen, in Norway where she sank after attacking the German battleship Tirpitz in 1942.
Empty plinths are witness to the work still to be done in the Bomber Command Museum. More displays and mementoes will be installed to add to the already impressive displays of armaments, gun turrets, oxygen masks, bomb sights and other equipment.
One with special memories for Lincolnshire is the pavilion which includes a reconstruction of Dr Barnes Wallis’ office.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
New museum in spotlight
Description
An account of the resource
Article 1 refers to funding for the Bomber Command museum at Hendon from RAF Swinderby.
Article 2 is a wartime memoir by Ivor Cole, 103 Squadron.
Article 3 describes some of the exhibits at the new Hendon museum.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1983-07-05
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One newspaper cutting from an album
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1983
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SMarshallS1594781v10076
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Laura Morgan
5 Group
617 Squadron
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
mid-air collision
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Hendon
RAF Scampton
RAF Swinderby
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/241/3386/ACrawleyF151222.1.mp3
c7e60126e907dfc9fd813433d3cabec6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crawley, Fred
Fred Crawley
F Crawley
Fred Crawley DFC
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Squadron Leader Fred Crawley DFC (146012 Royal Air Force).
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Crawley, F
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PL: Hello. I’m Pam Locker and I’m here today in Enfield interviewing Squadron Leader Fred Crawley DFC and the date is the 22nd of December 2015. So, Fred, can I just start by saying thank you very very much indeed on behalf of the International Bomber Command Memorial Trust for agreeing to talk to us and I know you’ve lots of things that you want to say so please, please do start. What I’d like to hear first of all is how you got in to the RAF in the first place.
FC: Well, I thought about the beginning of this and I thought to myself well what I could do, I could tell you, Pam as the interviewer just three lines of information and that would be my career. The first thing I would tell you I spent six and a half years in the RAF from 1939 May to the last day of 1945. I did over a thousand hours flying in doing what I did and I did seventy four operations against Europe. Twenty nine of those came on four engine Halifaxes and the forty five came on the Mosquito Pathfinder squadron. That was all continuous but the amazing part of the story really is the amazing change that happened in my career, not of my doing but what the authorities decided to do with me. So I will start by enrolment. I enrolled in what was known as the Volunteer Reserve, the VR, in May 1939 by leaving the office where I was being trained as an accountant and went to London in Embankment and there I was interviewed. First, for fitness to see if I was fit to be considered at all and despite having had appendicitis the year before and having happened on the Saturday morning when the local hospital had no doctor. They just had a student and he made a complete and utter mess of it and the RAF doctors who examined me on the day I enrolled said, ‘You’ll never fly with that wound.’ So I said, ‘Well, don’t be silly because I’ve been playing football and cricket ever since,’ So I said but if you say it, well they gave me such a pummelling I thought they would break it open but they didn’t and in the end they said, ‘Ok. You’re fit to have an interview,’ and my interview took place the same afternoon with an elderly, well ranked, he was an air commodore and all he said to me, ‘I suppose you want to be a pilot.’ I said, ‘Oh no. No. No, I don’t want to be a pilot. I want to be a navigator.’ ‘Why then. I’ve heard about this.’ Heard about navigation. I thought the first step which told me something really important and I said, ‘Well I, I’m interested in all things mathematical,’ I said, ‘I went to a good grammar school. I’ve been in employment for a year. I’m eighteen years of age and I would like to go in and train as a navigator’. Accepted. Then things started to move quite quickly. We had a few lectures in London and then I was posted to what was called ITW the Initial Training Wing and that turned out to be at Bexhill and it didn’t take long to see why. I thought I was fit despite my appendicitis operation but Bexhill pebbles, if you pound up and down Bexhill pebbles you get fit and we were without anything really except training, drilling, guarding at night with broomsticks and that finished with one of the most laughable things I’ve ever heard. It didn’t take long. It was just over two months and we went to the Delaware Pavilion which was quite a famous pavilion in Bexhill and there the chap in charge was once again an elderly, high ranking, I think he was an air commodore too, and at the end of his speech he said to me, ‘You who are about to die, I salute you.’ And I thought we’re back in Roman times. And so there was just dead silence and then muffled laughter and so that was the introduction to the RAF and almost immediately we were posted. We were all going to be navigators so the whole building was filled with would be navigators. That told you something. We were short of navigators and they were trying to redress the balance and we were posted to Scotland to Scone airfield which is just north of Perth. It was a grass airfield and I started in fact about it was there wasn’t one RAF personnel on the station. Not one. The navigation training was given by retired sea captains, the aircraft, which happened to be DH Rapides, de Havilland Rapides, they were flown by retired civil airline pilots over seventy and we did all our training but it was a wonderful training because they were not satisfied, if you didn’t understand they would go over it and over it and over it again to make sure you did and when you were in the air the pilots would respond. For example, would say, ‘Are you lost?’ ‘Yes, I’m lost.’ ‘Well down there is Lord Inverary’s place. I was playing golf there yesterday and you notice a strange building? That’s their home.’ And that was the attitude. I loved it. It was so friendly but those old people, those old sea captains, those old pilots, they were the salt of the earth and so we had a very marvellous training but nothing was skipped and we had a longer training than was normal. But all things come to an end and we left Perth to go to a place in North Wales for bombing and gunnery training. I couldn’t pronounce the name because it was P W L L H E L I which is pronounced Pwhelli. Well, we found out when we got there that that was where we got out and we were met and we were taken for bombing and that was done by old Fairy Battles which had become worn out and open cockpit Demons. Biplanes. So you could see it was using the rubbish really that we had only to use and so that went on and then we left there and, where did we go then? Oh then we went to Penrhos which was for bombing and gunnery and we did have a wooden platform built out on Aberystwyth Bay and you were supposed to try and hit it. Well there was one snag because they were very small bombs that you used because we couldn’t afford to waste any real bombs and I for one couldn’t find anyone who had hit it but so it was. We left there then to come away -
PL: Can I just ask you a little bit more about that?
FC: Yeah.
PL: So you would go up in just that little open -
FC: Cockpit.
PL: And then what? And there would be a bomb dropped from? How did that happen?
FC: Well the bombing was done from the Fairy Battles which were outmoded. They went to France I was going to talk to you about that. They went to France when war broke out and the French had of course, the French, made the fundamental mistake of relying on the Maginot Line but left the end open for the Germans to walk around the end and our 12 squadron, I think it was, were sent and they were literally wiped out. They destroyed a few bridges here and there but that was all. They did no good at all in stopping the advance of the Germans. So there we were and we were at the end of my training and I was posted then to my first operational squadron which I did on 12 squadron and that was on the Oxford Road at Benson. Well it was a crew of three. The pilot was in an open cockpit. He sat up in front. You couldn’t reach him from the inside and at the back was me as navigator facing forward and behind me, back to, was an air gunner/wireless operator with a single Lewis gun with a pan on top and that was our defence. The only other thing that was terrible about it was that if you got down inside to bomb then you had to pull the slide back and right in front of you there was the radiator for the Merlin engine which just about singed your hair off but that was life but of course in a way it was exciting because I was going to France. I was being trained for France and in being posted to Benson they had this off shoot of that to train people to replace the losses in France and that’s how it worked. In the meantime we were utilised. We used to attack our own forces, the military and bomb them or give them experience of low flying aircraft attacking them head on. Well, we didn’t have any bombs and this is perfectly true, we were given bags of flour and they were tied at the neck and we used to drop them over the side and hopefully hit a tank and one day I did. I was the only one who did but I did and it went straight down the turret which was open and the chap standing in it and it covered him with white flour. I never had the skill to do it again but anyway it was good fun. That was then for Benson in its prime but of course all things come to an end and the powers to be soon realised it was a waste of time sending our dilapidated aircraft to France to be shot down like flies by the Germans fighters who were so much better and the French had nothing at all. They pulled 12 squadron back and so I therefore never got further training in 12 squadron. I was then posted to my next move and so - I’m trying to see now what I put down. They decided that in going from Benson I would be well used in training others. I must have been giving a good impression that I had done fairly well because I never, I couldn’t get away from this training others as an instructor and so I was sent to Prestwick and they had a racket going there in my view. I’ve got to be careful what I say. I think I’ll withdraw that Pam because that might have repur but it was run by a private firm and they had one four engine old Fokker, a German plane, fixed undercarriage. It made the noise of twenty five devils when it took off and we crammed forty or fifty pupils in that with a small table to write on and we tried to teach them navigation and it didn’t work. So they then got a few Ansons and that was better. The old lady of the air force who I loved actually. I flew them myself as a navigator and so I was there at Prestwick for a time and then it was obviously costing a lot of money paying this private firm and I was moved down to, lower down the coast of Scotland to, where are we, [pause] oh yes I went then to Penrhos which was a navigation school and there I had a happier time. They were equipped with Ansons mainly and then I was posted yet again to another training place in Scotland and I kept, I was there until, flying Fairy Battles again, which weren’t used in France anymore and the replacements that came back from there. So the accent was always on training. Training, training, training and so in the end I began to get a bit annoyed and I said to the CO of, of the training station look I didn’t come in to the air force to train others. I want to do something for myself. So, at long last I was posted to [pause] forgive me, I went from Prestwick to [?] I was posted to an operational squadron of Lancasters by myself. Now in the air force it’s very dangerous to be on your own. If you’ve got six other blokes you regularly fly with you form a compact seven and you trust each other but to go by yourself, it’s a nasty position to be in but however I went to 106 squadron at Coningsby and the man in charge happened to be Guy Gibson of fame and he said, ‘Well we’ve got a navigator who’s permanently sick, he’s really ill. So,’ he said, ‘I think the chances are he won’t come back and the crew that you will go with are experienced and they will be pleased to have you.’ And I thought wow and would you believe I hadn’t been there for two or three days and I got my first op and that was to Poland so I was chucked in at the deep end and we went to Danzig Bay and we laid five very large mines in the harbour. Very cleverly done too. One mine perhaps would let two ships over before it got, this one would let four ships go over, this one would only allow one to go up so it shut the harbour right down for a very long time till they got them all up. So I thought right [?] and would you believe luck run out again because the first part of the war I had no good luck in it at all. The chap came back from sick. He wasn’t very well but he passed fit for operations so I was out of a job and I said to Gibson, ‘Look. What are we going to do?’ ‘Oh,’ he said. ‘I’ll fit you into a good crew.’ So I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I don’t want to be the odd bod fitting in an odd place. I want to be posted and pick up a crew of my own and fly with them.’ And so, so he said, ‘Right. I’ll get you posted. Well I was sent back to Prestwick but much to my utter amazement it wasn’t to teach others. I was pulled in to the CO’s office and he said, ‘We’ve got a special job for you.’ ‘Oh what am I going to do?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘We are going to ask you to lead formations of the American 8th Air Force from Prestwick down to their bases in East Anglia.’ I said, ‘Why do you do that?’ ‘Because they are getting lost going from Prestwick to East Anglia.’ And I can understand that. Where they were training if they came across a town there can only be one town because there’s no other town near it but when they get over here of course one town merges into the next one and the poor souls they just, they lost some aircraft too. Crashes. And in the end I had a wonderful time with the American 8th Air Force. They’d do anything for me. They supplied my mother, who lived in London, with butter, eggs and that’s what, that’s what they gave me as, ‘Thank you very much.’ So happy times. Here we go. And so having got away from 106 I was then with the 8th Air Force until, again they did get the idea how they could get from Prestwick to East Anglia without having someone to lead. I was given a special aircraft, a B25 Mitchell, a twin engine and a pilot whose name, would you believe it, was Lieutenant John Haig. Now, I liked whisky and here was a chap with a whisky name and we were great friends by the time we parted but parted again. I had to say, ‘Look, this has got to stop. I must, I must get on to a proper squadron and so I got posted to, much to my amazement from 5 group where Gibson was to Yorkshire, 4 group, on Halifaxes and I went to Marston Moor where they had an OTU, an Operational Training Unit and you were there to pick up a crew and well when I found the crew they were short of a navigator and I thought how odd. That’s the second time this has happened to me. What’s the matter with the chap? Well, he’s not the right type. When he gets angry he loses his temper, he breaks all his pencils and says, ‘’m not doing any more navigation.’ Well they were a young crew. A very young crew. I was the oldest at twenty one, I think. Yeah, twenty one, and so anyway we introduced ourselves and we got to the stage where we were doing the last night circuits and bumps, you know, as you do, with an instructor pilot on board. Well, in the Halifax a navigator’s position on take-off is on the rest bed in the middle of the aircraft. It’s simply because his navigation equipment is up front in the nose and so we did two or three. It was in February ’43. A rotten night. Very dark. Windy. They kept changing the runway to suit take-off better and he said to the pilot, I heard him say it, ‘Well you’re not too bad. Do one more then call it a day.’ He got out and we took off. Well, by this time I’d got fed up lying on the rest bed and I decided to do something about it so I said to the mid upper gunner, ‘Look you’ve had your turn. Can we change places? You come and have a rest on the rest bed and I’ll go in your turret and I can at least see what’s going on.’ No problem. ‘Yes, fine.’ He was fed up being up there himself so we took off and then all bad things happened. We were only just off the ground at about five hundred feet possibly when fire broke out in the starboard outer. So you remember the pictures of Concorde with all the gaps and there it was and we, everything was done that could be done. The fire extinguisher was pressed, the fire didn’t go out and it was trailing back and so all I heard at all was somebody said, ‘My God. We’re low,’ and with that there was a big bang and I went out like a light. Now that aircraft happened, by sheer luck, to be landed on a downhill field so it hit, it didn’t dig in, it bounced. The tail section broke off with the tail gunner in it two fields that way. I was thrown out. I didn’t know how, what had happened but I found out after the middle section broke off from the front section and I was catapulted but I had no shoes, no socks, no trousers on, and I was half in and half out of a bush. The rest of it was down another field and burning like fury and I saw one bloke come to the edge but he fell back in and he’d obviously had it. Well, of course this was on Marston Moor. There were no roads on Marston Moor so they could see the fire but they couldn’t get to it but the MO, the Medical Officer, he had a motorbike so he eventually managed it although he came off the motorbike several times. He got to me because when I came around, the reason I came around my feet were in a small pool of burning petrol and it was the pain of that that brought me around but the experience that I had then was bang, but then you’re going down a long, long black shaft and I was saying to myself if I reach the bottom I shall die. If I reach the bottom I shall die but then a voice out of the darkness, ‘Is there anybody there?’ And it was the farmer whose farmhouse we just missed on the way down and I yelled and said, ‘Yes I’m here.’ And he was, he had his small son of about six or seven with him and he picked me up, carried me on his shoulders and took me to his farmhouse. Laid me on the floor. And the MO got to me there and he filled me up with morphine and then of course I went out for a light, well, as a light and I woke up next morning in York Military Hospital lying on a stretcher in the corridor. Then I found I couldn’t move anything this side at all. Everything didn’t work. Legs, arms, shoulders anything, and they were very painful. I then saw the senior medic in York Military and he said, ‘How are you?’ So I said, ‘Terrible.’ I said, ‘What’s happened?’ So he said, ‘Well I’m puzzled by you,’ he said, ‘You haven’t broken a bone in your body. I’ve been all over you,’ he said. So I said, ‘Well what’s happened?’ So he said, ‘Well, what did you do immediately before the crash?’ I said, ‘I was looking at the fire.’ Of course I was. So I turned the turret around to look at it and so we were going that way you see and I was looking this way so I took everything on this side and he said, ‘What has happened is the force of the crash,’ which must have been a hundred and sixty knots or something like that, a hundred and fifty possibly, he said, ‘All your nervous systems have been so pulverised but,’ he said, ‘If you think you’re in pain now it’s nothing to what you will experience when it starts to recover.’ And it was true. It was agony. So I stayed in York Military. I had facial burns, burns to my legs and I was transferred to Rauceby near Ely Burns Hospital and there of course once again luck on my side. They had just got a new technique to deal with burns which applies to this day and they treated me and the only way Joyce could tell subsequently that when I got hot you could see that there was this side. You could see the outline of the fire and the legs too. And so there I was. So I was in hospital for a month and when I came out they said, ‘Go and have some leave.’ I was arrested in London because they thought I was drunk. I was taken to the SP’s hut and I said, ‘Well I’ve just come out of the burns hospital. I can’t put my coat on because I can’t do it.’ He took me into a pub and bought me a half a pint of beer and got me on the train home. So eventually I go back. I go back to Marston Moor.
PL: Did anybody else survive that?
FC: Well there were seven crew members. The tail gunner and I were the two survivors. The other five died. Two on impact and three from their injuries subsequently and it’s on the internet. My daughter-in-law found the account of this and all the pictures on the internet. I couldn’t believe it. I’ve still got it somewhere. Yeah. So back I go to Marston Moor. So I’ve been in the air force quite some time. I haven’t done anything worth talking about so when I got back to Marston Moor it was difficult to believe but they said, ‘Well, we are a navigator short in a crew.’ Ah. So I said, why, why, ‘Why, are they short?’ ‘Well he’s got a bad temper.’ it was exactly -
PL: Same chap?
FC: And I was convinced it was going to happen to me again and so when I saw the crew I’d got from a young innocent crew I’d got, I mean I was the oldest at twenty one and ok I was a bit older now. This was a Canadian pilot and and these people were a different calibre altogether. And to cut a long story short no trouble. We did our training at the OTU and we were posted to 158 on the East Yorkshire coast and that was my introduction to the operational theatre but I’ve wrote down here I’d been in the air force nearly four years and I’d done one op. Poor return. But then of course as so often happens in life things started to get better. We had, we did a full tour on 158 near Bridlington. I got the DFC and the pilot got the DFC for that and I was then posted to an OTU to train others and I thought I’m back to training again and this kept on dogging me. I get pulled in again but mind you to go to Blyton which was near Gainsborough, dreadful place. Wartime airfield. Nissen huts running in condensation. You couldn’t get a dry shirt and so I got very friendly with the adjutant who happened to be a West End actor. Unfortunately, I can’t remember his name now but he was quite somebody to reckon with at the time and he said, ‘Isn’t this a dreadful station?’ I said, ‘Yes it is.’ So he said, ‘I’ll tell you what,’ he said, ‘Suppose we put on a show.’ ‘Doing what?’ I said. ‘Well,’ he said, ‘I thought of a mannequin parade. We’ve got some lovely, young, beautiful WAAFs. I’ll go to London and I’ll get all the dresses and you write the music,’ ‘cause I used to play a lot in those days. ‘You write the music and there’s a WAAF, there’s a WAAF officer, she’s a good pianist we’ll tune one of the WAAF pianos so we got two pianos and you write the music.’ So I thought, ‘I don’t think I can do that.’ ‘So,’ he said, ‘The first thing you’ve got to do you’ve got to retune the NAFFI piano to match the Grand in the mess. Never try it,’ he said, ‘It drives you nuts.’ However, we did it and there we were and so he went to London and he came back. Well, when he showed me some of these dresses it left nothing to the imagination, Pam and I said, ‘It won’t do,’ I said, ‘You’ll have a riot because,’ I said, ‘The erks at the back, they’ll be on the stage grabbing them.’ So he said, ‘No they won’t. No.’ He, so he said, ‘Let’s give it a try with nobody in attendance.’ Well no we asked the CO to attend. So he said, ‘Well I can’t see anything wrong with it,’ But one girl was a very pretty girl. She took one look at the dress she was going to wear and she said, ‘I’m not wearing that.’ So he said, ‘Look. Nothing will happen. It will be like a graveyard. They will be so mesmerised by you and your,’ well to cut a long story short again it went ahead and it was true there wasn’t a murmur. I concocted something that was [in a Strauss?] nice and easy, bouncy stuff, you know and the WAAF, she was a lovely pianist and we did well there but when the girls came on in these wonderful dresses, I mean they left nothing to the imagination I can assure you, there wasn’t a murmur and they went out to thunderous applause and we then toured the area to the other airfields with it and so the time at this terrible airfield went quite well. But again I wasn’t happy because I had to go around the night skies with these to make sure they were doing alright and sometimes when I saw them do I thought, ‘Oh dear. You won’t last long.’ And so I thought to myself, ‘I must get out of this somehow.’ How am I going to do it? Well I had a particular friend at Bomber Command Headquarters in York and so I phoned him up and said, ‘What have you done with my application for Mosquito Pathfinders?’ ‘Oh I didn’t know you’d sent one in, Fred.’ ‘Oh yes,’ I said, ‘It’s been in a long time.’ I said, ‘I thought you were craving for navigators,’ because what they were doing they were taking pilots who’d got through the initial training, hadn’t done much flying, but putting in an experienced navigator with him. Only a crew of two you see and that made it compact but I said, ‘Well see what you can do.’ He came back to me and said, ‘I found your application.’ I hadn’t sent one in so he was lying in his teeth. So I said, ‘I’m so pleased. When can I go?’ So I said, ‘Like tomorrow?’ ‘Well if you want to go that quickly.’ So I did. I went the next day and I went to Warboys just near Huntingdon and there they were all being selected. Sprog pilots with experienced navigators and they would have had to have done a tour on something to be considered. Well, in that group of inexperienced pilots was a chap that worked in the same office as me in peacetime and who I knew very well and so it was obvious. I phoned his wife before I went and I said, ‘When is Mark coming down?’ ‘Tomorrow,’ she said. He’d been training at Lossiemouth in North Scotland and so we met and I saw the chap who was dealing with the matching. I said, ‘Look, I know him very well. Is it alright with you?’ ‘Yes. You take him.’ So my crew was established. Now, he wasn’t a particularly good pilot to start with. He became one and I was well satisfied with him and we did forty five trips as Pathfinders and of course with Pathfinders you’ve got radar. I had two types of radar. Gee in the nose and H2S up here. Do you know what I’m talking about? No. Well a Gee is a two wireless stations transmission of beam and you’ve got an oscilloscope and you measure the strength of each beam and where they meet that’s where you are. So that was the simple thing. The H2S is something quite different. This was a scanning machine which rotated a hundred and twenty degrees like that in the nose and you could illuminate any building ahead of you to a hundred and twenty degrees wide. You couldn’t take a back bearing. If you’d gone past it you couldn’t do it but with H2S, H2S is the symbol for hydrogen sulphide isn’t it? You know, bad eggs. I mean somebody had a sense of humour and so those two, navigation I was always fascinated by. In fact I loved what I was doing and but mind you the Mosquito, a lovely aircraft and I’ve listened people say marvellous aircraft and I think to myself, ‘Yes, it was,’ but it was, it had it drawbacks. For example, it was so cold. The engines could never give you enough warmth. They gave you a pipe which were supposed to stuff up your trouser leg, you know, to preserve your manhood sort of thing but it was only a trickle of warmth and at the blister at the side, thick ice, that thick. But the windscreen always freezed [they covered that?] But again no toilet. Now if you fly for five hours in freezing cold there’s things happen to the human body and the pilot had a tube between his legs, it came up as a nozzle here and the navigator had to try and get it down there but you know nobody worried about that because it was a wonderful aircraft to fly and so we developed our own skills there because when he came it was bumps-a-daisy for landing. He couldn’t get it right and so I said, ‘Well I think it’s too much to ask. You’re having to do too many things. I’ll do some of them. For example I’ll put the wheels down. I’ll put the flaps down. I’ll call out the airspeed.’ And, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Would you?’ I said, ‘Oh yeah.’ And we even gravitated to when we were on our way back having bombed and marked oh and by the way the radar screen, you always took a picture of it and if it wasn’t a picture of the target you didn’t get it, you didn’t get credited. It was tough. The WAAF officers used to develop it and in the morning when you came down from your sleep they had a big blackboard and there was the target and your ribbon, you know, O-Orange that’s your picture and if you had a picture of a herd of cows you weren’t there and you didn’t get it. So you had to work for your points. So there it was and that went on and on. There was never any talk of giving up because in Pathfinders once you got, you know your special brevvy as you did. It shows you in the picture there you never talked about giving up. You just went on. I’m sure, we had one bloke who did flip and he was found at 2 o’clock in the morning walking around the perimeter track and it was too much. But he went to hospital, he came back and finished his tour. Yes, it’s amazing what people did in those days and so I continued with him and I actually went on the last raid of the war which was in 1945 to Kiel where the Germans had set up their puppet government and do you now that was one of the worst trips I’ve ever experienced because there was nothing happening. No searchlights, no flak, nothing. It was eerie but I kept on thinking, ‘What if the engines pack up? The last war raid that’s likely to be. War is going to be cancelled tomorrow and I get shot down. I ditch in the North Sea.’ And it wasn’t until I saw the lovely cluster of searchlights that always appeared on the English east coast to welcome you home I thought, ‘Oh isn’t it lovely.’ Now, you would think that was the end of my career because the war had finished. I had done, as I said to start with, a thousand hours flying. More than a thousand hours flying. I’d done seventy four trips and I had done six and a half years’ service but no when the war finished myself and one other chap were given a weeks leave. It looked perfectly normal, perfectly normal. I said, ‘Oh that’s very nice.’ And of course I knew my co very well. I was friends with him after the war and he said, ‘Go and enjoy it. Go and enjoy it. You’ve earned it.’ You know. I should have twigged that something was in the wind but I didn’t. I had a nice weeks leave. I was reunited ‘cause we weren’t married then. We knew each other. We’ve known each other ever since babies because our mothers were great friends so we will be married sixty seven years and we are now in our sixty eighth year and so I called on her. We had a lovely weeks leave. And it was that that started it ‘cause I said, ‘Oh we must do more of this,’ you know, and we were married within six months or so and [laughs] when I got back from leave I saw the same CO and he said, ‘You’re posted.’ ‘Oh yes? Where to? Somewhere nice?’ ‘Oh yes. Very nice,’ he said. So I said, ‘Where?’ ‘Italy,’ he said. ‘Italy? But the war’s over.’ ‘Well I’m sorry. You’ve been chosen.’ ‘Am I going by myself?’ ‘No. We’re sending a pilot with you so the two of you are going.’ ‘Mosquitos?’ ‘Yes.’ I thought this is all very fishy. So he said, ‘But you’ll have to go by boat.’ To Italy. So off we went the very next day to Morecambe. We got on the Empress of India or a boat of that ilk and it took us a couple of weeks to get to Naples but right out to Atlantic and down the Med and into Naples and there I was met and billeted near the base of Mount Vesuvius. Nice, nice billet provided you remembered to walk on the duck boards because if you walked on the sand it took the skin off your feet because it was so hot. So, anyway, I was met by the duty officer and he said, ‘We’ve got you all lined up,’ he said, ‘Stay the night here and we’ll get the train to the airfield.’ ‘Train?’ I said. ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘Don’t you know where you’re going?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘You’re going to Foggia,’ which is right in the middle of Italy towards the south. Oh well. Anyway, on the way in the train I was very lucky. I’ve been lucky too because I sat in the same compartment with two army officers who had been on leave and had been in the area and they were starting to ask questions, ‘First time out old boy?’ you know, he says. Well they could tell by my knees ‘cause my knees were white. I said, ‘Yes. I’ve just come.’ ‘Oh. Have you got a gun?’ So I said, ‘Well yes but it’s in my kit bag.’ I’d never had any reason to fire a gun. So, he said, ‘Well get it out and load it and always wear it,’ he said. So I said, ‘Why? What’s happening?’ He said, ‘Well it’s very very dangerous out here,’ because they had literally got to starvation by the end of the war and they were ripe to take anybody’s food, clothing, transport or anything. And so I had [?] at Naples airfield. I had Foggia in the middle and I had Bari airfield on the east coast. The Adriatic coast. And so he said, ‘I’ve been detailed to give you two days run around the area.’ So I said, ‘Oh well that’s something. Yeah.’ So he said, ‘But do come prepared. You must wear your gun and you must be prepared.’ He said, ‘Never stop for anybody.’ ‘Never stop for anybody?’ ‘No. Like this,’ he said and out in front was a small village and out of a side turning came a poor old chap. He must have been fifty or sixty on a very rickety bike and he deliberately drove in front of us. So I expected him to stop. ‘Oh no,’ he said, ‘This is it. Don’t take him on. He’s not what he seems to be.’ I said, ‘What are you going to do?’ ‘I’m going to run him over.’ And he, well he tried but that chap was off that bike so nimbly we went over the bike but we didn’t go over him and of course all his cohorts were -
PL: Hiding.
FC: Behind the wall. And the other trick was to get the girls to pull their skirts up on the mountain roads all by themselves you see but the blokes were all behind the wall and it was very dangerous. And that was after the war had finished. And so that went on and by then I realised I had the most wonderful job I’ve ever had in my life. Never mind about air force. My job, I was in charge of three airfields. The three I’ve mentioned. Naples, Foggia and Bari and in each airfield there was a marshalling area for all, any kind of military personnel who was due to go home for leave, demob or whatever and my job was to get the aircraft from this country to these three airfields to take them there and I could, I had a very powerful radio station. I could order seven hundred aircraft at the drop of a hat. The power. It was marvellous, you know. You don’t, you can’t believe you’ve got that power and there they were all coming into the three places. The colonel or the major in charge of the army camps, they got all the details ready and they were loaded on the aircraft and they all came back to this country. You couldn’t do better than that. I could have made a fortune because everybody wanted to get on the planes but of course they had to take their time. I only did it once and that was because a chap came in, came to see me in the administration building where I was and he said, ‘Can you help me get home out of turn?’ I said, ‘No.’ I dare not do it. ‘Everybody is allotted a day. I can’t do it. Why should you be so particular?’ ‘Well,’ he said, he looked embarrassed for a minute, he said, ‘I’ll be frank with you,’ he said, ‘My girlfriend lives in Milan, she’s pregnant and she’s going to have a baby tomorrow. Now, if you could drop me off tomorrow I can be with her when she has the baby.’ Well, I didn’t know what to do but one of the Lancs that came in I knew the pilot very well and I said to him, ‘Do you think you can sneak a landing at Milan, drop my bloke off and take off like the hounds of hell were after you?’ He said, ‘I’ll do it.’ And that chap gave me a travelling American suitcase so you could take all your gear and it never creased and that was the only thing I ever got out of it. And then it all finished when my number came up ‘cause I had a very early number having been in so early. I found that it was my turn to go and I thought well this time I will get a Mosquito to take me home. No. All the RAF effort was controlled from Caserta in Northern Italy and they told me point blank, ‘I’m Sorry. You’ve got to go home on the train.’ Anyway, we had an Italian train allotted to us, no windows because they’d all been blown out and this was December. Bitterly cold. And the only thing that saved my life was I met my old batman and he had a primus and so he made tea every half hour. I had a stinking cold. I think I almost had pneumonia and he kept us going on that. When we got to Milan we changed trains to the Swiss railway. Lovely. Oh luxury and at every station we stopped at, ‘We hope you will come and have your holidays here.’ You know. Well listen to this when we got to the French border it was the smallest tank engine I’ve seen in my life and it had to pull this whole long train to Calais. Well it had to stop every hour to fill more water in the thing but eventually we got to Calais and, as I say, up to Birmingham for demob and that in a nutshell is my story.
PL: What an extraordinary story.
FC: Yeah.
PL: What an extraordinary story.
FC: It is. I mean could put all sorts of fine detail on it but I think it would spoil it because I think, it’s a true story. I have a job reading my notes so I stumbled a bit here and there but what it taught me was and I only got to this conclusion when I had finished putting these notes together for you. It was obvious to me that they had singled me out to be of the utmost use in training others. They weren’t interested in me getting on to an operational squadron. They’d much rather get the through pull of dozens of fellows. Much better return on paper. Yeah. But then you see four years in. One op. Six and a half, seventy four ops. So they all came in the end but they were the killing years. 1943 was dreadful. I mean the losses were so high. I mean, you could sit and have your eggs and bacon before you took off. When you came back sometimes there wouldn’t be one crew on the table. There was one table. The losses yeah. And touches still come flooding back because on Mosquitos they were really some of the elite if you like. I mean they were blokes with long flying experience because pilots had caught up a bit now. The navigators had been at it a long time. We lost some. We lost one or two perhaps a week. Never found out why. But of course Gibson himself had been killed in a Mosquito, but that was a boob. That was his navigator killed him but he changed over the wrong petrol tank. Still not many people know that. But -
PL: Sorry, what did he do? He changed over the tanks?
FC: Sorry?
PL: He changed over the tanks.
FC: Changed, yeah, the navigator had to do that.
PL: Right.
FC: Because the cocks, he sat in his seat here. The cocks were down there.
PL: Right.
FC: Now, it was very easy, so it was an unwritten rule that the navigators and of course when we were flying Mosquitoes we used, there were drop tanks underneath the wings, papier mache. There was two tanks in the wings and two tanks in the centre piece. Two tanks there. Now if you weren’t careful you had a couple of pints in that one, a couple of pints in this one, a couple of pints in that one. If you were caught when you got brought back ‘cause the weather had closed in you had it all over the place. You didn’t want that so we used to drain every tank dry so ok the drop tanks cause you would jettison those. They were made of papier mache you wouldn’t get a second and then move to the wings because that’s where the shells were going through and you would have fire so drain those and leave it so the centre section ‘cause if you were hit in the centre section you were, you were gone anyway and so we worked that out so we always had every drop of petrol, when we were coming in to land and coming out of markers and watching the beacons we had all our fuel in one place so if we were diverted because the weather packed up, we didn’t get too many. I think the met people did a wonderful job during the war. Far better than they do now sometimes and so petrol in one place. In the heavies you learned the hard way. Now we were raw recruits in East Yorkshire but it wasn’t long before you realised that if you stayed straight and level over there somebody would creep underneath you and - so don’t stay still but move to the side a bit. Get somebody else to take your place. And we and I was the main instigator in this sort of thing. I used to think about these things and say, ‘Well don’t do it.’ It’s a bit of a drudgery you know and of course you had to do it if you saw a fighter. You corkscrewed then but, but I think so many of the crew that were pushed in to these four engine Lancs and the Halifaxes they hadn’t had enough training and that didn’t get put right until 1944 when, of course, the German air force was marvellously organised. Their radar was every bit as good as ours but they used it for a totally different purpose. We used radar to find a target, they used the radar to find you. And they did. And they had directly you crossed their coast they were then saying, ‘Well, where’s he going? Where are they going? Are they going that way or that way or that way,’ and they had got everything organised to pass you on and they did. Pass you on box to box and that’s how it went and one thing that I shall never forgive the RAF for in 1943, round about September, October time, I suppose it was obvious something new was happening because you got these terrible explosions in the sky and it was obviously an aircraft blowing up and you thought well why are they getting so many? Well, we found out afterwards but the RAF said it was because the Germans were firing decoy shells which exploded and made it look like an aircraft going down but when you’re near it you can see it’s an aircraft going down. And that was dreadful because it was so many.
PL: So why were they saying that? Was that just about morale?
FC: Well just to get you, yes it was. That’s to stop you sort of getting the wind up. But as I said at the time when you’re looking at it you’re in no doubt what it is. Yeah. Yeah. And they were red hot. I only had one dodgy time on the Mosquitos because they were so fast they had to be in the position to catch you. And so what they did was as standard we went to Berlin more often than not because we had two types of oboe squadron. Mosquito squadrons. I had one type of radar and the other type of Mosquito had a different type of radar which was used for the Ruhr Valley because the Ruhr Valley was always covered in smoke and dust from the manufacturing. You couldn’t find it and so they controlled the Mosquito entirely from take-off. They took off, set course and they would give them changes of direction and they would even get you in a line which went right through the target and tell you when to drop [targets?] whereas we had to find them and in our case the Germans knew what we were at because the best way to find a target is to identify something near it or comparatively near it which you could see on radar and radar picks out buildings or more particularly, water. So if you go over a big lake you can see it because there is no response at all from water and so the great lakes north west of Berlin and about a twelve minute run in to Berlin stood out on the radar and it was a dead reckoning and so once you got there and took the line, altered course, twelve minutes you were there. You couldn’t miss but they put all their fighters around the great lakes and one of them was educated in this country and he would come on our frequency, he got our frequency taped and he would say, ‘Good evening gentlemen. You’re a little late this evening but we can see you all right,’ because we were the end of the contrail of course and they were up above us because they had the super chargers ME109Fs. They were up above. They could see our contrails. We had three markers per target so the three of us were very close together. They made a lot of contrails dead stick and they would come down, they could dive, they could get the speed to catch them but they had to get us first shot otherwise they were gone through us and they would never catch us up again but, but he would talk to you all the way. He would talk to you all the way in and say, you know, ‘Just stay like that, we’ve got that,’ and he –
PL: So they were really really -
FC: Yes.
PL: Messing with your heads and -
FC: Oh yeah. It was a war of psychology really, you know. He knew exactly how to ruffle people. Yeah. Yeah. And he would talk to you like that.
PL: So, so -
FC: But there is about the story of my RAF life.
PL: It’s just an extraordinary story. It really is. Do, do, I get the impression then that you, did you feel safer in the Mosquitos?
FC: Oh it was so much faster. Yeah
PL: Did you sort of feel in control of the situation more?
FC: A German fighter could outrun you but only in the diving mode so they used the height to catch you and of course we were flying, we always flew at twenty six and a half thousand. Don’t ask me why. Someone at the air ministry rather thought that’s a large figure so they won’t dream of, but always twenty six and a half thousand. Sometimes somebody would say alright we’ll make it thirty thousand but very rare and of course we were, time and time again the target was Berlin because we didn’t need any escort. No escort could keep up with us and so we always went the same way across the north German plains and came back the same way taking bearings on Hamburg, Mannheim and all those places as they came up on the radar screen. Yeah. Yeah
PL: I’ve heard a lot about the relationships within the crews and you talked a little bit about that earlier on.
FC: Yeah.
PL: With that dreadful crash but on base did you, I mean obviously you were in pairs in the Mosquito. Did you all socialise together and form relationships or -
FC: Well in my case because I knew Mark Wallace so well we shared a room. Didn’t have to. You were just allotted a room. We had batwomen instead of batmen by then of course [?] but they were the salt of the earth. They would defend you so that you got some sleep and they would make up their own boards and put them, “Quiet. Operational crew sleeping.” And they’d do your uniform and oh they were the salt of the earth. I always had a tremendous affection for them because they were all in the forty to fifty group, years of age, yeah but they wouldn’t take anything for the, you know, extras. Go treat yourself to something. No. They wouldn’t do that. No. They were really wonderful and of course again we were lucky here ‘cause whereas the Yorkshire one was a wartime airfield I can tell you something about that too but you might want to pack up. Upwood was a peacetime camp so it was all beautifully laid out and the mess was all brick built, everything was brick built. It’s still there. It’s just a massive American hospital now. Not working except for the local airfields. They treat any airmen from their local airfield but it’s there to deal with a calamity like, you know, a multiple train crash or something.
PL: So where is that?
FC: It’s just outside of a place called Ramsey which is just near Huntingdon.
PL: Right.
FC: Yeah.
PL: Right.
FC: And the airfield is called Upwood and it’s still there. I’ve been there. I was taken there by the mayor and of course they wouldn’t leave me alone. They’d say, ‘Was it like this when you were here?’ I said, ‘Yeah. Oh you changed that,’ or, you know, and then you get a magnificent meal you know, oh dear that was a lovely time. George came with me and of course the mayor was one of the, well he wasn’t a real relative but he, we were very great friends and he said well I’ll take you there. I’m invited to bring friends and so I did. Yeah.
PL: Lovely.
FC: Yeah.
PL: Tell me about the Yorkshire airfield.
FC: Well, it was, as the name suggests, a wartime airfield. It was built probably in late part of 1941 or thereabouts and it was all nissen huts except for the control tower. That was made of brick. And it’s another odd thing about my time in the RAF I was always, a squadron normally has two flights A and B. Sometimes, if they’re big enough they have C as well but normally it’s A and B and never, never was in A. I was always in B and I placed some importance to that because I thought I want to be in B for luck. And so as it was a poor airfield you can guess I was a bit of a rogue in those days I got back one morning about half past two in the morning. We’d had our debriefing and so on and we went back to the nissen hut and I thought, ‘Oh this is awful.’ Running in condensation. Well I had -
PL: This is the Yorkshire airfield.
FC: Yeah. Yeah.
PL: So, different from the one down in -
FC: Huntingdon.
PL: Bladon, Bladon, Was it Bladon near -
FC: Blyton.
PL: Blyton yes. Where you had the show.
FC: Yes.
PL: Right.
FC: No that was pretty stark.
PL: Right. Yeah. Ok. Fine.
FC: So that was alright. But I wasn’t flying this particular night and I missed the last bus back to the airfield. That’s me, you know. So I thought, ‘What do I do?’ I gave myself up. I went to the local police station. ‘Can I sleep in one of your cells?’ And they said, ‘No. We can’t do that. That’s for locking up prisoners.’ So I said, ‘Well, what am I going to do?’ ‘Oh, that’s no trouble. If you go along the main road to,’ I can’t remember the square number but it was Beaconsfield Terrace, ‘And the second house as you go in, ask for Mrs Wilson.’ I said, ‘What will she do?’ ‘She’ll give you a bed for the night and breakfast in the morning in time to get the bus back.’ So I said, ‘Really?’ So I went there. I trudged down to Beaconsfield Terrace. I saw this lovely Yorkshire grandmother she was and she looked at me and she said, ‘My God you’re thin.’ Well of course I was. I hadn’t long been out of hospital. I’d been flying on ops as well. So, ‘Come in. We’ll have to get some flesh on you,’ she said. And she took to me like and she, I stayed at Mrs Wilson’s so I had an arrangement from then on. I thought well if I can do it this far I can go a bit further. As the adjutant, I always made a friend of the adjutant because he’s the all-powerful admin. So I said to him, ‘Look, can we have an arrangement? If I phone you and say its Fred here you can tell me if I’m wanted back or not and if you say no I’ll stay in Bridlington and I’ll get the afternoon bus.’ So he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘What if it changes?’ I said, ‘Well I’ll leave you a number to ring just in case something pops.’ It worked like a charm. I was never let down by the adjutant. I never got caught. I used to get the afternoon bus in and she fed me up. I used to have hot milk and whisky at eleven in the morning. No charge. And she used to make the life of the butcher on the corner of the square a misery because, ‘Look at him. Look. He’s hardly got a bit of flesh on him. Give him something.’ And do you know that continued after the war.
PL: Really.
FC: Joyce and I, we were married by now. We used to go up there for holidays.
PL: How lovely. Whereabouts was that in Yorkshire?
FC: Bridlington.
PL: And this was at Bridlington.
FC: Yeah.
PL: You said about Bridlington.
FC: Yes. In the main square. Yeah.
PL: Fantastic.
FC: Yes lovely, lovely women she was. My boys she used to call us. My boys. I had two brothers. One was in the navy on North Atlantic convoys on the, on one of the small, I forget what they called them now, small boats. Terrible time. My eldest brother was too old to serve as a combatant. He was, he was put in, some sort of officer in charge of a prisoner of war camp in Cornwall so he had a lovely war did my brother, Harry. Of course they’re all dead now. Everybody’s dead. But er but we met once only. My brother Bob and he come up with his wife. Yeah. Stayed at Mrs Wilson’s of course. He had the front bedroom on the first floor. Now, Mrs Wilson had one weakness. Her drink was port and brandy. I thought that’s a killer. I couldn’t take it. I’ve never been very good at strong drink. I like a whisky with lemonade. That’s the sort of stuff I like. And so she said, ‘We’ll have a celebration.’ So, ‘righto,’ my brother was there with his wife. The whole of my crew. Now the whole of my crew were all younger than me and she bought them all a port and brandy. Well you can imagine what it did to these kids. I mean at twenty three now, I was, I was the oldest. They were out like lights so they all went to bed early. We heard them all collapse on the bedroom floor. Somebody went up and put them to bed but the thing I always remember with some amusement my brother was just an ordinary sailor, a matlow as they called them. Never try and undress a sailor because we couldn’t get, his wife and I we were so convulsed with laughter we put him to bed in his uniform in the end because we couldn’t get it off. But they were the good times. Yeah. Yeah.
PL: And he survived the war. Your brother. That was in the navy.
FC: He survived the war. Yes. Yes. He was never caught by a submarine or anything and he did it all the war. Backwards and forward to the States. Yeah. Bore a charmed life. Yeah. Harry was -
PL: Talking about the lucky, about being lucky, being lucky, the B squadron was lucky. Did lots of you, were you, were you sort of superstitious in that way? Was there a sort of -
FC: I think everybody -
PL: Did people have charms.
FC: Flying is superstitious really. You, for example you would never dream of dressing to fly except in one way. For example, you always put something on first and then something on second and if you do it wrong you’d strip, start again. I’ve done that. I’ve done that a dozen times. Never change that. No.
PL: How funny.
FC: Yeah and you get an affection for a particular aircraft. That’s the funny thing you see. You know, I had an amazing experience. We had an [laughs] am I boring you?
PL: Not at all.
FC: Oh. Because we had great losses in 1943 and our replacement aircraft used to be flown in by little girls dressed in a beautiful white uniform and they had the time of their lives because they always stayed the night in the mess and then they were picked up. Nobody asked any questions and so and they were right royally entertained but now and again a particular aircraft, I nearly always flew in O-Orange or P-Peter and one of those photographs is O-Orange.
PL: What does O-Orange and P-Peter mean?
FC: Well, each, each aircraft has its squadron letters which in, in Yorkshire was NP but then on the other side of the roundel that was on all our aircraft the NP was on the left of the roundel but the letter of the aircraft was on the right. So you, A flight was from A to H, I think it was, and then B flight was from say L to, no, yeah L to Z and so you identified yourself as you were coming in. You’d say O-Orange
PL: Right. Right, I see.
FC: So, you see, they knew who you were. But we had one occasion which, it really accentuated superstition because the little girl brought the aircraft in. There was three of them. They brought in three Halifaxes from the factory but we were operating that night and we were one aircraft short so we had to bring one of these new arrivals in to the raid and it happened to be the one that was given to us because our own aircraft had been so badly damaged it couldn’t fly and I said, ‘What’s its letter?’ It hadn’t got a letter. It had just come from the factory. It’s got a squadron letter NP but no individual because they didn’t know what it was going to be. Well, I said, ‘Well that’s alright. We’ll call her O-Orange. So we did. We thought of her as O-Orange. That aircraft flew like a gem. It was fast. It was trouble free. It gave us no trouble. We had no trouble finding the target. We had no trouble with enemy fighters. Everything was perfect. I said, ‘We’ll keep this one.’ So we all went to bed. When we came down to the flight offices there’s the chap in charge of maintenance said, ‘Sorry about your aircraft.’ I said, ‘What aircraft?’ ‘Well, the one you flew last night.’ ‘Yes. Wonderful aircraft. We want to keep it.’ ‘It’s finished.’ ‘Finished?’ I said. ‘It will never fly again.’ I said, ‘What on earth are you talking about?’ He said, ‘Well, it’s got a major fault in it.’ For that one raid it didn’t show it. Anyway, it was loaded on a Queen Mary vehicle and taken away in one piece. It never flew again. It was broken up and made into another one.
PL: Good gracious.
FC: I know. And that convinced me -
PL: So that had two flights.
FC: Just that one.
PL: It was delivered and then it went on the raid. How extraordinary.
FC: Extraordinary isn’t it? Yeah. But people did have a, did get a love, it was always a kind of love anyway, you know because for example in the Mosquitos we had one old timer. It was, it was operational but it didn’t have all the modern amendments. For example, the windows at the side were flat whereas in the new version it had big blisters so you could see backwards and that poor thing it kept on going and going and going but I never liked it and we were sitting at the end of runway waiting to take off. It was dark. It was a night take off and S-Sugar it was, with the side windows flat was sitting in front of us. As was the first one to take off in front of us and we saw it go down the runway, we saw him lift off but then the tail lights started to do this and he, obviously something terrible happened to it and it went straight out of control, straight in to the bomb dump of another airfield. Boom. Nobody knew what happened. Poor Mark said, ‘What on earth was that?’ I said, ‘Don’t worry about a thing. Just concentrate on what you’re doing.’ Yeah. So, yeah, poor old S-Sugar had a poor end. Yeah.
PL: Goodness me.
FC: I could tell you a story. One more story about the Mosquitos. Now, our, our losses of course were so little compared to the big ones. After all we had two fellows to lose instead of seven, for one thing and of course the big ones were much more vulnerable. Well, on this particular occasion we had marked very successfully. A lovely picture on the screen showed we were right on the dot and we, the bomb doors shut, pictures taken and dive and turn to come home and we were coming back across the north German plains at about twenty two thousand, something like that ‘cause we were gradually losing height and picking up a bit of extra speed and I started to feel very uncomfortable. I’ve told so many writers about this it’s almost as if I, you know, it happened yesterday. Well, I said to Mark, ‘Is everything alright?’ ‘Yes,’ he said. ‘Well,’ I said, ‘Let’s have a good check all around. You check yours and I’ll check mine.’ Couldn’t find anything so I thought, well, sat down, got on with my work and this feeling came back. I said to Mark, ‘There’s something wrong here. I know what I’ll do.’ We had a little extra astrodome and if you got your head into it you could see backwards so I said, ‘I’ll have a good look around. Perhaps somebody’s on our tail somewhere.’ Anyway, I got under the astrodome and I had wonderful eyesight in those years. I could see things in the dark that most people couldn’t which I’ve now lost of course, completely and I said, ‘Well I can’t find anything, Mark,’ and I sat down but as I sat down something down there caught my eye. I couldn’t see it when I tried to see it so I thought, ‘I know. I’ll wait for my eyes to get adjusted here and I’ll look again,’ and there about a thousand feet down but flying the same course was a single engined plane. Couldn’t be mine. Couldn’t be one of ours. We had no single engines during that so it was obviously one of these 109Fs and so I said, ‘I’ve got him.’ I said, ‘I can see him now.’ ‘What’s he doing?’ he said, I said, ‘Well he’s not doing anything. He’s just flying parallel to us about a thousand feet down,’ but I then began to notice he was getting a little bit closer all the time. Very, very, very slowly. And I said, ‘Oh I know what he’s going to do. He’s going to get as close as he dare and then he’ll come up, firing as he comes up.’
PL: Underneath. Yeah.
FC: So I said, ‘I’ll tell you what we’ll do. Let’s turn around and go back into Germany.’ ‘What?’ he said. I said, ‘Let’s turn right around and go right around and go back into Germany for three or four minutes. Then come back on the course again.’ Exactly what we did. I sat down. I felt quite comfortable but in a few minutes the feeling was back and so was he. He’d done exactly the same as we had. So I thought this is no, no pupil here this is a really experienced bloke and this time he was definitely closer. So I said, ‘Now, get ready now Mark. Do the same again but dive. Stuff the nose right down,’ and as I said that up he was coming and as we turned he came and he was firing but of course we’d dropped out of his firing range. He gave up after that and I knew he’d given up ‘cause I felt fine. So I think you do get senses of things. Yeah. No more trouble. I said, ‘He’s gone Mark. We can proceed.’ And that’s I think I could bore you to death if I carried on.
PL: No. It’s, absolutely, honestly it has been fascinating hearing you. Really. Are there any other stories you want to share?
FC: Pardon?
PL: Are there any other stories you want to share?
FC: Well, I suppose the story that haunts me all my life, has done and still does, is when I crashed on Marston Moor because I think I was half dead. When I was going down, when we hit there was this colossal bang and blackness and I was out but I was conscious, no, I was aware that I appeared to be going down a long black shaft. Not terribly fast but I was saying to myself, ‘If I reach the bottom I shall die,’ and I’m convinced that had I reached the bottom and been conscious when I did I would have died. So I have no fear of death at all. None at all. I mean we often talk about it, Joyce and I. She’s ninety four. I’m ninety five. I’m ten months older than her and we talk about it. Now, what we have done we have decided we will not go into a home so we’ve persuaded our daughter who has a lovely house in Royston, a big house, to build on it a suite for us and we’ll pay for it. Now, it’s all been done. We have stayed in it. It’s a little bit smaller than we had hoped because when they started to build they had to do something in the building of whatever and so it is a little bit smaller but it’s beautifully done and so when one of us goes the survivor, when all the battels are cleared up will go and live with our daughter and I’ve got the most wonderful family in the world.
PL: How lovely.
FC: My daughter and son are and their spouse’s, well, no I’ll qualify that. No. One of the, my daughter’s husband is an absolute gem. He’s just like a son to me. I say my two boys. Yeah. My son’s wife is not so easy but she’s alright but I often think of that time and I’ll never forget it. It comes back to me. Yeah. And to think that you could survive. Just think, you’re coming down and you hit the ground at about a hundred and sixty miles an hour. That breaks off, the next bit breaks off and the front stays there, huge fire and I’m out here somewhere in a bush. No socks, no shoes, no trousers.
PL: And if you hadn’t have gone up into the top -
FC: Ah that’s the point. If I hadn’t have asked that chap to change places with me I would have been where he was and I would have been flying up from there as I was but he died in my position and he was quite glad to do it because he was bored to tears of course. He’d done it three times already. He didn’t want to do it a fourth time, ‘Yes,’ so we changed over. I actually saw the fire start because, you know, you’ve got your big cupola turret. I happened to be looking down and saw the first globule of flame and I thought, ‘That’s odd.’ Then suddenly there was a long streamer of fire and going back toward the tail end and so I called him up and I said, ‘I think we’ve got a problem with the starboard outer.’ ‘Oh good gracious. Yes,’ turned the petrol off but one thing ‘cause the chap who was CO was Cheshire. Leonard Cheshire. He was my CO at Marston Moor and he said, ‘Well what did you do?’ I said, ‘Well in the front they did everything right except for one thing. They did not feather the prop,’ So the prop was windmilling and dragging that wing down and that did it. And the fire of course did the rest, you know, but they were so inexperienced. They had very little flying between them.
PL: But it’s amazing that you dared go back up again. Were you not terrified when you went back in to the air?
FC: Well I, when I went back to Marston Moor and they told me they’d got another crew whose navigator [laughs] I thought, ‘Oh no. I can’t take that again.’
PL: No. No. No
FC: So I thought, ‘Oh well.’ But of course you can’t refuse. I mean you’re under control from the air force and, but when I saw them I thought well these are a different kettle of fish and the chap, the Canadian pilot, he had hands like ham bones. You know. When he got hold of the [cold column?] he dwarfed it but even then he hadn’t got these [?] you see. It was his first trip and it could have gone so badly wrong because on the first trip which they gave you always what was called a gardening trip. A gardening trip. What do you mean by a gardening trip? Laying mines. And so three newcomers to the squadron took off together on this night and we were going across Denmark in to the Kattegat and putting the mines down in the shipping lanes. Well, there were only three of us flying from that squadron that night and we were the last to get off and the other two were on our left so we were following here but they kept on drifting further and further left and my pilot kept on giving a touch on the rudders to follow them and I said, ‘Don’t do that. They’re not right.’ Drifting away, ‘They’re not on track.’ He did, well he didn’t know me so I got set up but when it got dark he couldn’t see them so I gave him an alteration of course, brought him back where I knew he ought to be and we found Terschelling Island which was the turning point, went over the point of the island, into the Kattegat, down the lanes, no problem at all. Back again to Terschelling Island, home and we were home and in the debriefing room all finished. No sign of the other two. I thought, ‘Oh dear, we haven’t lost them already have we?’ Anyway, they turned up very very late, they had got lost and then been chased up and down the Norwegian coast by fighters but they got away with it but that taught me a lesson so I said to Smith, the pilot, ‘If you ever do that to me again I’ll finish with you.’ I said, ‘I’m navigating. If I say you ought to turn right, turn right.’ If I’d have said it’s raining cats and dogs outside he’d have believed me from then on and they all got their commissions in turn and it was an all commissioned crew in the end.
PL: How wonderful.
FC: Yeah. Yeah.
PL: And that’s photograph that you showed me.
FC: Yes. That’s the photograph. Yeah.
PL: So, what, so what was the relationship like between navigator and pilot then? Was that -
FC: Ah well you had to have good relationship. I mean when you think of a pilot what is he doing? He’s sitting in a seat. He’s strapped in as tight as he can be. He’s staring into the dark, darkness. He can see all the terrible things that are going on. Aircraft going down in flames and so on you know but he’s got to what his instruments and so he doesn’t, and the compasses. His job is just to do what he’s told and do it well but then of course you’ve got to think about other things because the Germans devised the JU88 and also the ME110 where they, underneath, no on the top of their aircraft they had upward firing cannon. It was called schragemusik. You may have heard of it?
PL: Ahum.
FC: Well of course what they did was if you got a bloke flying along straight and level they’d come along underneath. The gunners couldn’t see him unless he did, the aircraft was doing something like and then he would manoeuvre his German aircraft out, to right or left, it wouldn’t matter and he would fire into the wing where all the petrol was. Boom. Gone. If you manoeuvred he’d let you go because he could find somebody who won’t and I got very friendly with a number of German night fighter pilots when I had a writer here. His name was Williams and he said they knew straightway whether the aircraft they were looking at was one that knew the ropes or didn’t and if they started to jink about it was too difficult to pick somebody that starts. And I had a wing commander once who came from Training Command, took over and of course they only flew occasionally, wing commanders, on ops. Anyway, in my, Smithy was not well so as a natural choice he turned to me and said, ‘I’m taking your crew.’ ‘Oh,’ I thought, ‘I don’t like that,’ because not only was he green but he wouldn’t listen. So when I said to him, ‘I think it would be a good idea if we did a bit of jinking and weaving.’ ‘I’m the pilot here and I will do what I think fit.’ I couldn’t believe my ears. So I said, ‘Well we have learnt sir, from experience, that if you stay straight and level you gradually find that someone is underneath you and the gunners won’t see him if you don’t move anything.’ ‘I’ll decide when we do that.’ He lasted two trips and he was shot down. That’s the sort of thing. So, gradually, throughout your tour you were learning all the time. Little things happen and, ‘Oh I must remember that.’ You know.
PL: Because it might just save my life. After the war did you, did you sort of, was it a big shock at the end of the war, you know, your transition into doing other things? I mean were you -
FC: Oh the worst time of my life was in the aftermath of war and demob because Pam, I went back to where I came from. They paid me a small salary throughout the war which was very nice. I was training to be an accountant in a big commercial enterprise. When I went back there all the men that didn’t go had the top jobs and all the people below them were their girlfriends. I’m not joking. They were all their girlfriends or [?] so there was nothing for me at all. I went back as an office boy. I came out as an office boy really at eighteen and I went back in exactly the same and the secretary had the gall to call me down when I went back ‘cause he phoned me up and said, ‘I’m so glad you survived,’ you know. ‘Jolly good show chaps,’ you know. ‘When can you come back?’ I said, ‘Well I’ll start on Monday if you like.’ I’ve never had a day’s unemployment in my life. So he said, ‘Well that’s great,’ he said, ‘We’ll make sure we look after you.’ The first morning I got back he called me down and I thought well he’s going to call me down for a drink. I really did. And when I walked in, ‘Oh it’s good to see you. Lovely to see you.’ Something in the boss changed and he said, ‘Let’s get one thing clear,’ he said, ‘You may be able to take an aircraft from A to B and bomb it to blazes but you’re no good to me unless you can do the job which earns money.’ And I thought, ‘Well.’ So I was thinking all the old boys have got the top jobs, the girls underneath them got the second row. Where do I fit in? There is nowhere. So I thought well I don’t know what I’m going to do so I decided the only way to do it was to do two jobs so I went to work for a football pools and I worked Saturday evening and all day Sunday and I earned more money doing that because I love maths. Permutations and combinations were my bread and butter. I loved it. And so old Alfie Coates, it was Coates of course, which was quite near. They’re down in Edmonton. We were living in Palmers Green and he took a shine to me. I soon got on to the top rank of payment and he said to me, ‘I’d like you to come to work for me,’ and I was tempted because I was earning more on the Saturday night and Sunday than I was getting for the full week but I thought, no. You never knew what was going to happen because they were all Jews of course and [laughs] he said, ‘Well I must use your skills,’ he said, ‘You don’t, don’t sit in the factory. Come in to my private office and we’ll give you all the syndicate coupons,’ you know and they put thousands and thousands of lines and very complicated. I might only do five coupons the whole night because there were so many lines but I loved it and that was so satisfying but I learned one of the major lessons of life and that is what you can do as discipline with staff if you have the guts to do it and this came about because with Coates they got so much bigger and bigger and bigger their throughput got bigger and bigger and bigger they wanted more time so they then started to say, well, Saturday evening, all day Sunday. Can you come in Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday evening? Well, of course if you’ve got a young family of course I couldn’t do that so what he did in the end was, he said, ‘Well, I’ll take people who can work Saturday evening and Sunday out to lunchtime but if you can’t work beyond lunchtime come to my desk and tell me why.’ So I watched this parade of people going up to the desk and I watched them coming back. They obviously hadn’t got their own way at all but what I never expected ever to see in England all the exit doors were barricaded, locked and a guard put on so nobody could leave the factory and he never got taken. Human rights? I mean, he broke every law imaginable but he never got taken to task and I thought, yes, if you’ve got the guts to do it you’ll get away with it because those chaps had to have the money. They were all fighting for money to support their family and their wife and they would do anything to do it. I did it myself. But then of course things do change. We had a change of chief accountant and somehow my face fitted. He was hated as a man and as the chief accountant but for me he had all the time in the world and he was a lay preacher. Now, of course I was a church goer in those days and I was an organist at the church and I used to read the lessons and so on so I had some sympathy for him and so he said to me one day, ‘Do you think you could drive me to the station to go on holiday?’ I said, ‘Of course.' That was another brick in the cement. All building the wall. And his wife took a shine to me. She was the mothering type. She took to me. It was embarrassing. She always wanted to give me things. And I said, ‘No you mustn’t do that,’ but where he was concerned he suddenly said to me, ‘I think you’re wasted where you are.’ He said, ‘What would you say if I gave you a department of your own?’ I said, ‘I’d say thank you very much and I’ll go for it.’ I finished up, he gave me one, he gave me two, he gave me three, he gave me four and it was damned hard work but I learned the lesson, never complain about the hard work. That’s not what pleased him and I watched one of the other departments that I hadn’t got. The chap who used to work to 5.36 no less on a Friday afternoon for the weekend. Well, of course there comes a time when you’re doing dividends and so on and this chap came in, very close to 5.36 and this chief accountant said to him, ‘How are you getting on.’ ‘Fine,’ he said. ‘I’m in a bit of trouble ‘cause I’m a bit behind.’ ‘Why is that?’ ‘Well, we haven’t got the work done.’ ‘Yes I know that. Why is that?’ You know this was the kind of, I thought, ‘You idiot. Fancy, you’re provoking,’ what happened in the end he said, ‘Look I’m a reasonable man,’ the chief accountant said, remember Friday evening, 5.36 knocking off time he said, ‘I’ll be generous,’ he said, ‘You let me have that at 9 o’clock on Monday morning and we’ll call it square.’ And the chap said, ‘Thank you very much sir,’ and walked out. Now I don’t know when the penny dropped but I said to him, that’s the chief accountant, ‘You’re the wickedest man I’ve never met,’ and he laughed his hat off because nobody had ever spoken to him like that and from then on we were not master and pupil. We got on like a house on fire and in the end, unfortunately, he died in my arms because he said because we used to go out together around the area ‘cause it was a big area. We were in the Enfield offices and had our meeting with the manager there and said, ‘Well this is not good enough, do this,’ and he, my chap said, ‘Well I’ll go down to the car now. You finish up Fred and I’ll write up my notes and give them to the typist when I get back and they’ll have it ready for the next morning,’ and it was in the local manager’s hands the next morning. You see, pressure. So I said, ‘Ok.’ And I finished up and when I got to the car he was slumped like this and he’d had a heart attack.
PL: Oh my goodness.
FC: And although I yelled for the manager, the local manager to come down and drive the car and I got behind him and I massaged his heart but I couldn’t save him. He died. I think died shortly after we got to the [?] but and that and then life was good. I had four departments. I had a beautiful office over the main door at the south end. I was then promoted to be the manager of two large warehouses where we introduced a system whereby it was all computerised and a crane picked it up and put it down and put it, and then of all things I got the sack. Why? We had a steering group where we all prepared and I asked a question of the eastern board, Eastern Electricity Board’s chairman, I said, ‘Can we go anywhere to see this system working?’ ‘No.’ ‘Why is that?’ ‘Because there isn’t one.’ I said, ‘You’re buying on spec that it’s going to work.’ And he said, ‘Oh it will work.’ I said, ‘How do you know that? You haven’t seen it work have you?’ ‘No.’ Anyway, I said, ‘Well you’re going to have to use a system of contractors which will be liable to failure instead of using solid [states?] I knew a bit about things then and he said, ‘Oh no. That’s old hat,’ he said, ‘We’re going to do exactly as I say.’ Then he appointed me as the manager. Well it never did work and it wasn’t capable of working but of course who do you blame? You blame the bloke in charge and, you know I, Joyce and I used to go down to the warehouse at 8 o’clock on a Sunday evening, cure all the faults on the cranes, automatic cranes, get it all loaded so the lads could pick at 8 o’clock on Monday morning. Nobody knew we were doing it. I even drove a ten tonnes lorry to get supplies down to Harold Hill in Essex on a Sunday night. Nobody knew. And of course I’d have been sacked if they’d have found out but I had such a host of friends now from Harold Hill who realised that I was facing getting the sack because I hadn’t, well I’d driven bigger things than a car, yes, but a ten tonnes rigid full of parts and machines and at the end of course they weren’t satisfied with output of the factory and so we had a meeting and they said, ‘Well, regretfully we’ll have to say we’ve got to have you out.’ I said, ‘Well that’s alright. I fully expected this. In fact I anticipated what you came here for,’ because in the interval they had a spare engineer. They didn’t know what to do with him. He was a very objectionable bloke too so they put him down with me and even said that he has got authority over you but where he made his terrible mistake, he loved sailing so he used to disappear from the factory at Friday lunchtime and come back Monday lunchtime. Never saw him. So he had no idea what was going on. Not a sausage. So of course I all I said to them when they literally sacked me, the secretary of the board was a very old friend of mine and he said to me, ‘I think you’ve been treated abominably.’ I said, ‘Well that’s life. ‘It happens.’ He said, ‘But there’s a job going in Hemel Hempstead but it’s going back to accounting.’
PL: How funny.
FC: ‘How strange,’ I said. But then he said the chap that’s leaving has been promoted and he was very good. It’s the best area on the board. You’ll have a job to beat him. And I said, ‘Well I’ll try.’ And I got there. I got the job by merit and I made that district the best in the board.
PL: How funny.
FC: And then of course once you’re known the deputy chairman said, phoned me one afternoon and said, he never announced who he was, he said, ‘Are you going to be in this afternoon?’ I said, ‘Of course.’ So he said, ‘I’ll come, I’ll be over shortly,’ and he came over and he said, ‘I’m moving you.’ I said, ‘Oh I’m just enjoying myself here,’ I said, ‘It’s a lovely life here. It’s cushy. The entertainment is lovely you know. We go for walks at lunchtime.’ So I said, ‘What’s the job?’ And I dreaded it. It’s the trouble shooter for the board. So if anybody’s in trouble Charlie goes and sorts it out and gets it right. And in this area which was Pinner. Which you may know. Yeah. The offices were just, well you know where it is the manager was permanently sick, was never there, just take it over and get it back. So I did. And that’s where I retired from.
PL: Good gracious.
FC: And I closed that factory down as I retired because we’d moved on and we brought other premises. You know.
PL: So did you never miss your navigational skills? Did you, did you ever think I’d have love to have carried on with something or -
FC: Well you see I tried to -
PL: Flying or -
FC: I tried, well I tried to get into civil flying but I was knocked about so much. So, that, I I had a fictitious medical category. So, you know you get A1 or A2 or whatever. I was called, I was RAF A3B. There isn’t such a category but I was. That was me.
PL: So what did it mean?
FC: It meant that he shouldn’t be flying at all but as he wants to go and fly let him fly and that’s how I went through with the Mosquitos. I was always A3B after that crash but everybody sort of turned a blind eye and said well if he wants to fly let him fly. And I must say I look back and it’s only one of pleasure I look back on because I met some wonderful friends. I met some wonderful characters. Really. I mean one of the pilots was a policemen in the Met police. Totally different from my own who was very careful, nursed an aircraft. This fellow, this policeman his idea was thrash it. Get home first. Why? ‘Cause you got the meal first you see. [laughs] And he was always back first. I never knew why but I said to him quietly one day, ‘One of these days you’re going to get caught.’ ‘Why so?’ I said, ‘Because you’re racing back. You’re using more petrol and you won’t have enough petrol to contain the diversion. I said, ‘Think on it Alec because,’ I said, ‘One of these days you’ll regret,’ but when it came, he should have been a fighter pilot because he was an artiste. I mean you couldn’t tell he was down because I flew with him four or five times when my pilot was sick. You couldn’t tell he was down. He was shhhhh shhh shhh wonderful wonderful pilot. Natural pilot.
PL: So did he get caught?
FC: No. No, he didn’t. He saw the war out and he, he I had to laugh because he liked to drink. He married the owner of a pub whose husband had died. [laughs] Now if that’s not -
PL: So he was lucky to the last.
FC: Well there you go. Yeah. Yeah. I can look back and say I was frightened many times. You can’t go off it but generally speaking I look back with pleasure because you get so skilled in what you’re doing ‘cause in navigation the rule was you fixed your position with radar, you plot it, extend it forward three minutes, alter course in three minutes so it’s six minutes. I did that in three. So I got my fix and in three minutes I altered course. I never got out of the stream so everybody else was there. It made all the difference. You were never a low one that could be picked off by anybody that was about.
PL: So do you think, how do you think your experiences changed you for the rest of your life or -
FC: Well I’m lucky to have the loveliest woman in the world. I mean, to me the thing where Joyce is concerned we only had two children but I would have been quite happy with one but David was very dangerously ill before he was one and finished up in Great Ormond Street but I won’t go into that but she was an only child and she said, ‘That’s wrong. I think we ought to have two children,’ So we had, we got Gillian and my two to me they are the salt of the earth. They’re wonderful. If I have a preference its only because naturally a father thinks a little bit more of his daughter I think. And she, she’s lovely. And I’ve had a wonderful life. Wonderful life. Joyce has been the kindest, the most efficient ok she’s got trouble now. She’s a very bad knee which, every time she goes to the hospital to get it done they find her blood pressure has gone up so they won’t do it. And so I said, ‘Just give it up old girl. You’re never going to get it,’ because she suffers from [Coates?] syndrome, you know. She goes to the doctor her blood pressure goes up. Never win. You know. I hope -
PL: Well Fred –
FC: I haven’t bored you
PL: You have, I’ve been absolutely fascinated. You haven’t bored me for one second.
FC: Oh I’m glad of that.
PL: But I guess there’s just one last question that I’d like to ask you and that is what are your thoughts about how Bomber Command were treated after the war?
FC: Badly. Well of course it hasn’t been handled well this side. First of all let me preface by, I feel very strongly. You’ve touched on a rise, well I won’t speak.
PL: You must say whatever you want to say. This is your moment.
FC: Well, Fighter Command saved this country to start with by not allowing the German air force to rule the skies and to allow an invasion and nobody can take that away but Fighter Command unlike Bomber Command had good aircraft in the Spitfire and the Hurricane. A good match for anything the Germans had, in fact slightly better and they were able to hold their own. Their trouble was pilots. They didn’t have enough pilots and Dowding said very, very strongly, ‘I wish I had more pilots,’ but of course it wasn’t quite as bad as it might have been because we had the university air squadrons, we had the club squadrons and they all had got some training and they were able to slot in. Mind you some of them flew with very little flying hours, I know that, but so did the Germans. They had to bring [?] so there was a parity there which at least gave them a chance of holding their own and so it proved it be and of course they were in foreign territory coming from France. We were on our home territory. If they baled out we could fly again where the Germans once they were shot down they were shot down. They were finished. So gradually they, and Hitler gave up any idea of an invasion but if you look at the history of Bomber Command. Are you alright?
PL: Yeah.
FC: Yeah.
PL: Fine for batteries.
FC: If you look at Bomber Command, the Bomber Command had not been dealt with properly. When we went to war we had no decent bomber aircraft. What we did have we sent to France. They were shot down like flies and in the end it was given up as a bad job and that’s where I first come in the picture when I go to Benson. I’m being trained to replace somebody killed in France. Ok but of course on paper things were happening. New designs were emerging. The Fairy Battle was never a bomber worth talking about. It was a crew of three. Pilot, open cockpit. Couldn’t get at him. One single Lewis gun at the back and nowhere to do navigation. Hopeless. Absolutely. But it served the purpose of giving our military on the ground some experience of being attacked by low flying air and the laugh of the flour bags. So, gradually we got replacements. We got the Wellington. We got the Whitley. We got the Hampden, the Hudson but they were not really satisfactory. They were only twins but of course the Germans made exactly the same mistake. They never went for four engine. The only four engine they ever had was the Fokker Wulf which they put on the convoy routes and so of course they made their mistakes as well but they were never really successful and of course above all else the thing in my book which turned the balance was the advent of radar. Now, we and Germany were well on track for being first. In the end it was a tight race and I think the Germans got radar more or less the same time we did but totally different motives. We were keen on two things with radar, defending our country by detecting incoming aircraft but more importantly finding targets in the dark which we could not do. I mean you can’t just circle around in the dark and hope to pick up something and we couldn’t find the targets and so when we got radar along came the better aircraft to equip it and so we had three. The foremost in the public mind was the Lancaster. Then came the Halifax and then came the Stirling. Now the Stirling really was the poor man’s plane. It was big, cumbersome, slow, couldn’t get the altitude and really was although they flew through the war I always felt desperately sorry for them. I know one or two people who flew them, one particularly well and I said, he was always down there. We were up here and the Lancasters were a bit further up and so gradually we not only got better aircraft but we got radar as well and they became standard. We could find places in the Ruhr because we had two types of radar. The type that finds the targets in the Ruhr were controlled from this country. Two radio stations and you flew on a beam and as long as you got your fix, crossed swords, you flew and kept it if you bring it back and then they would tell you when to mark. I didn’t get that. I got the other one. I got the H2S which was totally different, which was long range. It was, it was a signal which was radiated by the aircraft and so it swept on this, on those, a hundred and twenty degrees like that and I, if I went over a town I could take a bearing on it. I’d get a fix. Never let me down. Never let down once and Gee was marvellous. Gee had its limitations ‘cause the Germans were very clever. They learned how to block it out. And so you got Gee to the enemy coast or just short of it and then they jammed it, you know and so I feel that we were totally wrong when dear old Chamberlain you know, was trying to give us peace in our time, as he said, and then he said, ‘I regret to say we are now at war with Germany.’ Of course we were at war with Germany. I could see it at eighteen coming and that’s why I decided to go in the RAF. I didn’t want to be in the infantry and I didn’t particularly want to be on the waves so I went with that and so I think we were poorly led at the start of the war. We were ill prepared and only the natural gifted talents of our beloved country and the men that would give their lives for it could got us back into it in the end and I think that at the end and to answer your specific question when it then started that Churchill took sides against Dresden I thought don’t they realise the only reason we bombed Dresden was because Stalin asked us to. Dresden was the rail and road junction where all the pulling back of the German forces were going through and it was wood and so of course it burned. I went and looked at it. We’d been to Berlin. I said, ‘Let’s go and have a look at it,’ because we were quite confident by then about what we were doing. And nobody has had the guts to say well, A) Stalin asked to have it bombed because it will reduce his losses as they were pursuing the fleeing Germans and of course the nature of the town being wood it was catastrophic but it was no more catastrophic than Hamburg in 1943. I went to Hamburg two nights running, I should have gone the third night but the aircraft was u/s and that, I saw a town as big as Hamburg on fire from end to end and thousands of people died in their cellars from suffocation because the fires were so intense they had a fire storm and that destroyed all the oxygen in the cellars and so they couldn’t breathe. And so Dresden was no exception but Churchill, I felt he thought he was on a weak wicket here and he, to our dismay anyway, I thought he just let the blame go to Bomber Command. No. Old Butcher Harris, he knew what he was doing. After all, think back in the war. What were we trying to do? We were trying to bomb individual factories which we couldn’t find. When we got radar well you could find the town but you couldn’t find the factory. You didn’t know what it looked like. It took Butcher Harris a long time to convince Churchill we ought to bomb the towns because if you knock the houses down the workers won’t be able to go to work and you’ve effectively stopped production. And so it did and of course time after time you could, well I used to always navigate by the fires, you know. As you were going across the north German plains you go across Mannheim and Frankfurt and all those places you could see where they’d been because of the fires but all those chaps didn’t go to work the next day and so the production dropped and in the end well they either did one or two things. They either had to take the factory, get it undercover, mountains something or caves and transfer all the people that worked there to it and that’s the way they survived in the end. Yeah. So I think and then of course when it came to supporting Bomber Command there was not a voice raised. Not a sausage. And I still think that memorial opposite the RAF club in Piccadilly is is abominable. Do you realise they’ve dressed them up in uniform which we never used. They’re old fashioned clothes. They were the days of open cockpits. So -
PL: Goodness.
FC: Really, you know, so often I see people on the television. They’re usually gunners or wireless operators and they talk about wonderful aircraft to fly. They didn’t do anything to make it fly. Only two people did that. The pilot flew it and the navigator got it to the place it wanted to go to and let’s face it if you didn’t get to where you wanted to get to the pilot is superfluous but most pilots would agree with that and they would say well they were sitting there in the dark. Very little light. I mean the lighting in those things was an anglepoise lamp attached to the outside which came over your shoulder with a nozzle at the end and in that nozzle was cardboard with a pinhead opening and the light [of emmission?] came through that and you were navigating on your knees, you know and people, I mean these blokes how could they know that? They had no experience and it always tickles me, of course, ‘What did you do?’ ‘I was a wireless operator.’ Well he sat down below and he used to listen to the German night fighter controllers, usually wetting his pants as he did so ‘cause the bloke I had he would come eyes as big as saucers and say, ‘They got so and so, all up. We’re going to get a terrible pasting.’ I said, ‘Yeah. Alright well we’ll deal with it when we come to it. Go back and tell us what’s happening.’ But I felt so sorry that we hadn’t got somebody in authority who could have said, ‘Don’t talk rubbish. Tell what the real reason was why we destroyed Dresden.’ Why did we destroy Hamburg then ‘cause that was a burn out. Thousands upon thousands of people killed in their cellars. Doesn’t that merit an equal comment to Dresden, but of course Dresden was wood. Made it worse. It just jumped from one place to another ‘cause all the initial load were all incendiaries. Get the fires going, drop the bombs in, kill the firefighters. Yeah. It’s very sad because, you know, now and again one of the things, I hope you don’t mind me saying this.
PL: No. Not at all.
FC: One of the things that appals me we have got so many women in parliament now. You know they come on the box and they talk with great authority and I think how old is that one? Twenty three. Twenty seven perhaps. But you know they talk as if they’ve lived a life of experience. Hands on, you know but they can’t have done. They’re not old enough. Mind you they sometimes get men that are no better. And one thing I do admire is the vitality of these girls. They work and they speak well too. Yeah. So, but I sometimes I think to myself I don’t thing they have the right to say that to me. [laughs] And how does she know? But there you are looking at an old, irascible, sort of awkward old boy.
PL: I think that’s perfectly fine.
FC: Well there you are. I must say it’s been a pleasure to see you.
PL: Well it’s been an absolute pleasure to talk to you.
FC: I wondered how could I talk? That’s a big task. When you talked about an hour and a half I thought to myself well you’ll be lucky to get away with an hour and a half if you really are going for it but you’ve been very generous. You’ve just let me ramble on.
PL: Not at all. I think it’s been an amazing story and -
FC: Yeah.
PL: I’d just like to say thank you very very much indeed.
FC: Jolly good.
PL: For sharing that with us.
FC: Oh well it’s my pleasure to meet you too. I would love to meet your husband and perhaps that might happen one day. Who knows?
PL: He’s, I’ll switch off here.
FC: Yes. Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACrawleyF151222
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Fred Crawley DFC
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
02:05:36 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending OH summary
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pam Locker
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-22
Description
An account of the resource
Fred Crawley joined the Royal Air Force in 1939 when he was 18 years old. While at an operational training unit he survived a crash which killed five members of his crew. He was treated in hospital at RAF Rauceby for burns. After training he completed 74 operations as a navigator with 158 and 139 Squadrons.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
139 Squadron
158 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
entertainment
Gee
ground personnel
Guinea Pig Club
H2S
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
medical officer
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Benson
RAF Blyton
RAF hospital Rauceby
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Penrhos
RAF Upwood
RAF Warboys
superstition
target photograph
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/255/3402/PLairdCraig1701.1.jpg
dd35678b5dd714fa6ca7f93d8b04d077
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/255/3402/AFoisterMS171010.1.mp3
42bc4842674a2bca0286d57de31c3599
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Foister, Mary Stanley
Alan Laird Crag and Mary Stanley Foister
Alan Laird Craig
A Laird Craig
Mary Stanley Foister
Mary S Foister
Mary Foister
M S Foister
M Foister
Mary Stanley-Smith
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Mary Stanley Foister (nee Stanley Smith, formerly Laird Craig )(1921 - 2017, 2028611 Woman's Auxiliary Air Force).
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LairdCraig
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: This is an interview between Harry Bartlett from the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive and Mary Foister. Mary was, formerly, the wife of Wing Commander Alan John Laird Craig, but Mary, in her own right, was an RAF officer. The interview is taking place at [redacted] Hoby, Leicestershire. It’s Tuesday the 10th of October 2017, and the time is 10.05am. Mary, thank you for doing this interview, for agreeing to this interview. Could you just tell me a little about your background before you joined the RAF?
MF: Yes. Well I was born in Buckinghamshire and we moved to Pound Farm in a little village in Buckinghamshire, near Princes Risborough. I was the eldest grandchild on my father’s side so I was very spoilt because of all the uncles and aunts, and the youngest one on my mother’s side so I was spoilt because I was the youngest. So I had a very happy childhood. And then my father came into some property in a place called Walters Ash, a village, Walters Ash and Knaphill, up on the hill, about five miles away from where we were and his home was there, his original home from the farm, and then suddenly, we had a boy next door called Alan Oakcroft, who lived next door to us, was in the Air Force, and he was constantly, stationed at Abingdon, constantly flying over the house and we thought oh he was just being friendly, you know. But eventually he said to my father, ‘Ernest I must come and see you officially, we’re going to take over your’ - daddy had the lease on Bradenham Manor and the land and the farming you see – ‘we are going to take over your Bradenham Manor land for Bomber Command Headquarters.’ This is why he’d been flying over, taking all the things you see, all the photographs.
HB: What year was that, Mary? Can you remember?
MF: That would be about, er, I think about ’36 ’37, yes, about then, and so well, it was absolutely amazing. He’d been chosen to do it because he’s a local boy and they thought he would know the. So they took over Walters Ash Farm, which was my father’s home, and, well it changed the whole village of course, and built Bomber Command Headquarters there. I mean we were very much a farming family, nothing to do with the services at all, but we used to go to the mess and I said to my father ‘I want to join the WAAF’ and he said ‘whatever for, you’ve got your own bedroom, you’ve got your own pony’ [laughter]. I said I want to join the WAAF, so I joined the WAAF. And I was sent to, and he had friends in the Headquarters, he said I don’t want her to go too far away so I was sent to Bicester, which was an Officer’s Training Unit for bombers and I had, well he used to come down and see me every weekend, you know, check up on me. He said ‘you’re not going to stay in are you?’ I said yes, I loved it, ‘cause I loved boarding school and so that was that. And I was at Bicester as a corporal, I got my commission, went to Windermere for the officer training thing and then the only thing I’d done after leaving school was done an admin course in London, shorthand typing, and so I was sent to Newcastle on Tyne for an admin course, and I had about three months there and that was fun because it was near Edinburgh, we used to pop up and you know, then my posting came through. By this time of course I’d got a commission.
HB: What rank were you then Mary? When you got your commission, what rank would you be then?
MF: Oh, Assistant Section Officer, ASO, [laugh] the lowest of the low. So, you see my father obviously wanted me back at Bomber Command under his control, nice control, and I didn’t want to go back to Bomber Command because it was Headquarters and they were all old all me! I was about eighteen at the time you see, so I had this friend there and he said there’s a good posting going at Exning near Newmarket, at a Bomber Group Headquarters.
HB: Exning?
MF: Number 3 Group Headquarters. So I was posted there as ASO, Assistant Section Officer, to Air Vice Marshal Richard Harrison, who had been left at the altar so he didn’t like women, so he wasn’t very receptive. [Laughter]
HB: Oh dear!
MF: But we tamed him [laughter] anyway, yes, we became great friends in the end, so that was, as I say, my first posting and I was his PA for, oh goodness I can’t think, and I avoided Bomber Command like the plague because I didn’t want to go home, you know, but eventually I got posted to up Bomber Command right at the end of the war, as the war ended, to Bomber Harris, a little bit, about six weeks of him, and that was quite enough, and then to, my last posting was Air Vice Marshal, Air Marshal Sir Norman Bottomley, who was an absolute dear, lovely to work for. In the meantime Alan had, he was the youngest Wing Commander in the Royal Air Force at twenty one, he had a spectacular career, very well decorated and he was chosen, his squadron was chosen to go to the Far East and then that war stopped, so what do we do.
HB: The Japanese war.
MF: So he trained Lancasters to do formation flying which had never been done with Lancasters, been done with fighters but never done with bomber aircraft you see, and this impressed Bomber Harris, and Bomber Harris’s PA came from Rio de Janeiro, can’t think of his name now, anyway, and he said ‘I want three white Lancasters to take my PA back to Rio.’ So he had three white Lancasters, and Alan was the chief pilot, back to Rio and they were gone for six weeks. Of course you know they made so much a fuss after the war, and they gave them a wonderful time, so I thought well that’ll be the end of that, I shall never see him again, but I did and came back and Alan was stationed at Gravely in Huntingdonshire then, RAF Gravely, which was Pathfinder Squadron, under Don Bennett, and so I was at, I was on leave, in the south of France with my mother and I said ‘I have to go back on duty’ because I thought I’m going to see that squadron come in. So I came back all the way from France, to Gravely, to see 35 Squadron come in, back from Rio de Janeiro. But Alan never spoke to me, I mean we’d been quite friendly, but I thought well that’s the end of that. A week later he phoned up and said ‘hello, how are you’, and I said ‘I’m all right’ [laugh] and he said ‘well shall we meet in London’. So I said ‘yes, fine, where?’ he said ‘oh meet at the Dorchester’. So we met at the Dorchester and he said ‘oh, I’ve been posted’, I said ‘oh goodness, really, where?’ And he said Buenos Aires. He said will you marry me? I said yes! [Laughter]
HB: As quick as that!
MF: Anyway, because of this trip to Rio, they more or less said to him what would you like to do and he said I’d like to go back to Rio, but he went to Buenos Aires and so in a month, my mother was very sort of formal person, you know in dress and everything, we had to have a white wedding in London and one thing and the other and we were married at St Peter’s, Vere Street, and then the reception at the Dorchester, and well, then within a fortnight we sailed for BA, I got out of the WAAF and.
HB: What year was that, Mary?
MF: ’40 - when did the war end?
HB: ‘45.
MF: ’46. November ’46. I got married on November the 9th ‘46. And we sailed from Tilbury on the Highland Chieftain, had a wonderful three week trip across to BA, and that was that, you know, so then I found I was pregnant with that one – straight away! [Laugh] So Gavin was born out there.
HB: So you had to resign your commission when you got married?
MF: Oh yes. Yes, yes.
HB: Can I just take you back Mary, a little bit, just a little bit, because I was intrigued, you actually started, once you were qualified at Bicester, you went out to Ixney. Ixney? How have I written it down? You qualified at Bicester, but you, for a period of time you ended, you were with Harris.
MF: Oh! At the end, that was when I was commissioned, right at the end you see.
HB: Ah right! So prior to working for Harris, what would your job entail being the PA, before Harris, because you were PA to, um, at 3 Group.
MF: Harris was before BA you see.
HB: Yep. Sorry, PA, you were personal assistant to?
MF: Bomber Harris.
HB: Before Harris.
MF: Um, well to the man at Newmarket, at Exning.
HB: At Exning, Exning, right. It’s all right, I’d just lost, I lost a little bit of the continuity there, I thought we’d.
MF: No, I didn’t want to go back to Bomber Command so that’s when I got posted to Exning, near Newmarket in Suffolk, and I was PA to Air Vice Marshal Harrison.
HB: Yup. Harrison! That’s what caused me the confusion. It’s Harrison and then Harris!
MF: Harris. Ah yes, As I say he was left at the altar so he was anti women!
HB: Yes, but you talked him round. Wonderful. So you went out to BA, as a new bride, you’re then expecting Gavin. How long were you out in Buenos Aires?
MF: How long?
HB: How long were you in Buenos Aires?
MF: I think about two years, yes.
HB: So Gavin was born.
MF: Born out there.
HB: Out there. So what was Alan doing at the time?
MF: Well he was Assistant Air Attaché.
HB: Ah, right.
MF: To a man called Beisegel. B E I S E G E L. So they, we had Paraguay, Uruguay and the Argentine. We never got into Paraguay ‘cause they were always having a war [laugh], we got into Uruguay a lot, which was nice, and Buenos Aires of course which was enormous, so we went right down the south and travelled all over the Argentine.
HB: Right. So you were down in South America for two years.
MF: Two years, yes.
HB: What happened then? How did you?
MF: Then we came back, then we came back to earth a bit because they’d caught up with, Alan had been, way, way back, back in Coastal Command, earlier on in his career and they wanted a Chief Flying Instructor at Kinloss, in Scotland, so we went from Buenos Aries to Kinloss.
HB: Hmm. So that would be 1948, ’49 [phone tone] I’ll just have to pause the interview a minute. I’m just going to resume the interview that we temporarily paused. So, you’ve arrived at RAF Kinloss, what was Alan doing there? What was his job there?
MF: He was Chief Flying Instructor.
HB: Right. And what kind of aircraft, what kind of aircraft would he be flying there?
MF: Good heavens, I ought to know. I can’t remember at the moment.
HB: Shackletons perhaps?
MF: No, I don’t think so. Huh.
HB: It doesn’t matter, it’s not a major. So you were in quarters, living in.
MF: Well no, there weren’t any quarters; we lived in these little cottages. This one used to slide along on his bottom because he couldn’t, on lino you know, they were very barely furnished and suddenly one day he stood up and walked and I rang Alan and said: ‘Gavin’s walking!’ [Laugh]
HB: Lovely! That was in Findhorn village, in the village.
MF: Yes.
HB: So how long were you at Kinloss?
MF: [Sigh] Well, I, my daughter was born when I was up there, but I went south to my mother to have my daughter. I was away for a month because she said you can’t have that baby up here, so I went south and had my daughter. We were there about two and a half years, I think. Such a long time ago now, to remember all these things.
HB: Well you’re doing very well [much laughter]. I have to say, extremely well! So what was, when you first came back, from Buenos Aires, what was the biggest change you noticed in this country, having been living abroad for two years? You would have come back in 1948.
MF: Hmm. Well, I don’t know, you see my mother and sister came out to Buenos Aires for three months with us, to stay out there, and then they came home well, I don’t, well what biggest change, I don’t know. Can’t really think of anything.
HB: You found everything fairly settled.
MF: Well, much the same really. I mean obviously, I mean there was still food rationing when we came back. Course, when we went to Scotland that didn’t apply, I mean there was no rationing up there.
HB: Oh! No!
MF: No. Well not literally no, ‘cause you could get anything you wanted.
HB: Yeah. So, in Buenos Aires you lived, where did you live in Buenos Aires?
MF: We lived in a flat in the town to begin with, and then we moved out because we had Gavin, when we said we need a garden, and we moved out to a little house in San Isidro, up the river, and we had a Chinese cook who lived in a little hut at the bottom of the garden, Chinese cook called Georgie, and he was marvellous, and he, you know, Gavin was in his pram and he was in the sun, he would go out and move Gavin out of the sun.
HB: Lovely, oh that’s delightful. So you left the sunshine of Buenos Aires and you moved to Kinloss.
MF: Kinloss! That side of Scotland was, is very good, I mean it’s better than the west side, as you know. Oh yes, it was very good.
HB: And that’s your family’s developing now, your daughter, you came south and you had your daughter.
MF: Had her in the Radcliffe, came back and went back to Kinloss and that was that. And then we got posted back to Bomber Command, er no, got posted back to Air Ministry, but my mother said ‘you can’t live in one of those awful little quarters’, [chuckle] ‘you must have your own house’, so we bought a house in the village of Walters Ash, where Bomber Command is, and we had our own house there, and Alan used to go to Air Ministry every day and then he met our MP, called John Hall, and Alan said ‘well I’m a bit fed up of this’, because he was a Wing Commander at twenty one as I said, at thirty two he’d reverted to a Squadron Leader because well, you know, that was the thing, so he said bit tired to John Hall and John Hall said ‘come and see my Chairman’, he didn’t know him. He was a man called Sir Lindsay Finn and we didn’t know what on earth he did, apart from sit in Parliament. It turned out he was Chairman of Gossard Corsets! [Laugh]
HB: Oh right, right.
MF: So when Alan came home I said ‘well, what does he do apart from siting in Parliament?’ he said ‘he’s chairmen of Gossard Corsets!’ I said ‘well you can’t do that!’ But you see, by this time I’d got three children, I’d got my daughter and another son, Adrian, and we were in our house in this village, in Bomber Command village, and well, he was very tempted to come out because as I say, and my parents, of course, didn’t want us to move away again, so they were very influential. It was awful that we came out of the Air Force, I was so sad, it was wrong really, ‘cause Alan would have I think gone a long way. Anyway, we came out and, but they then, they had, Gossard, had this factory up here in Syston and they sent him up here!
HB: Oh right!
HF: So he was up here for three months and I was alone in Bucks and said oh goodness so they said well you’d better buy yourself a house, to Alan, and move your family up there. This was in 1954 I think ’55 I think, and so then we bought Gadsby Hall, and, they bought it for us, and we had, we lived there. The house had had twenty seven bedrooms, but they knocked the top off and the sides off and made it into a reasonable house, but it had seven acres of garden, which it still has. So anyway we did that and he was, my father was ill and in hospital and I was down south visiting him and I thought Alan had gone to France. By this time he, as I say, joined this, when I say they made the corsets, they made the machinery up here, this was the, so he was due to go to France on the Friday morning, on the Monday morning, I thought well I’ll go and see my father because he’s in hospital in High Wycombe and so I went off after Alan went but Alan didn’t feel well so he didn’t go. And the next thing was, on Tuesday, I got a message, we had a houseboy living in the house at Gadsby, called John Griss and he rang me up and said ‘oh the Wing Commander’s not too well, I thought you should know’ I said, ‘he went to France!’ He said ‘no he didn’t go because he didn’t feel well.’ So he said the doctor, our doctor lived in Gadsby village, so he sent him straight to, which hospital in Leicester?
[Other]: Royal Infirmary.
MF: Did he go to the Royal Infirmary?
[Other]: Glenfield? No.
HB: Not then, Glenfield not. Be the Leicester General?
MF: No, it was a nursing home.
[Other]: No, it wasn’t a nursing home, it was a full blown hospital.
MF: Oh was it, it was, yes. [Pause] Anyway, but Gavin and I got into a car straight away, rushed up here and this boy in the house said ‘he’s been taken to the hospital in Leicester’, and we walked in and Dr Ward, who lived in Gadsby was our doctor, was struggling, said ‘I’m afraid he’s dead’, so, like that. [Paper shuffling]
HB: What year was that?
[Other]: 1971.
HB: ’71 Oh dear. Oh right, I think, I thought I’d read somewhere that he’d been taken ill, and he was being treated for the illness and had the heart attack. Yes.
MF: Yes he was. Yes. As I say, he should have gone to France, but he didn’t go. But he didn’t let me know that he wasn’t going to France, so course I thought he’d gone, there you are.
HB: Can I just take you right back, very simple question: can you remember what your service number was?
MF: Ha! Something 0 double 1. Can’t remember. 20286 double 1. 20286 double 1. Maybe.
HB: 202 86
MF: Double 1. Maybe.
HB: Double 1.
[Other]: Sorry Harry. Can I just interrupt, just one second?
HB: Can I just pause the tape. Restart this, it’s 10.38, we’re just restarting the interview. Mary’s son Gavin has just had to leave, so we’ll just carry on. Right, so we’ve got to Alan actually dying in 1971. Can I just again, just go back a little bit, very, very disreputable question to ask a lady, but can you tell me what your date of birth is?
MF: 25 11 21.
HB: That’s lovely, thank you. What was your original maiden name?
MF: Stanley-Smith
HB: Stanley-Smith hyphenated. And has the Stanley got an e in it?
MF: Yes.
HB: Stanley-Smith. That’s lovely. [Cough] ‘Scuse me. Yes, just going back now, just try and pick up on one or two things we may have skated over a little bit. You said you went to boarding school. Where did you go to boarding school?
MF: Cliftonville, in Kent.
HB: Cliftonville, right. And you finished boarding school in time to join the RAF.
MF: Yes. I became head girl at boarding school. [Chuckle]
HB: Ooh!
MF: And well then, as I say, left. I did a little job in London for a bit, for a month or two, then I joined the WAAF.
HB: Yes. And as you say, you did your training in Windermere.
MF: Yes.
HB: How, what was your training like? Was it austere or was it very relaxed?
MF: No, quite happy, quite easy going year, yes.
HB: But you had to learn to look after your uniform.
MF: That sort of thing, yes. Yes, we marched about, as I say so long ago now, I can’t remember.
HB: And then you became a personal assistant to Sir Norman Bottomley.
MF: Ah, not, no, to Air Vice Marshal Harrison to begin with.
HB: Ah. Sorry, Harrison was the one that was left at the altar.
MF: Yes, yes.
HB: So you went to Air Vice Marshal Harrison and then a short time.
MF: At Exning, yes.
HB: At Exning. And then a short time with Harris. Where were you based with Harris?
MF: Bomber Command, Headquarters.
HB: At?
MF: Well, Walters Ash.
HB: High Wycombe, Walters Ash.
MF: Back in my home village you see.
HB: Yeah. And then you went to Sir Norman Bottomley.
MF: Yep. He took over from Harris, so I, and he was lovely to work for, and they had a house, the official house there was called Springfields, up at Prestwood, a mile or two away and we used to go up there. If there was nothing to do he’d say ‘oh let’s go and have a game of tennis’, he was lovely.
HB: Oh, right.
MF: But then you probably had to work till midnight if something happened, but you didn’t mind.
HB: And did you, when you worked for Harrison and Harris and Bottomley, did you notice, or did you, were you conscious of the pressure they were under?
MF: Well not really, no, I think you just accepted it, you know.
HB: Because I mean at that stage of the war, in ’43 ’44 things were very pressured.
MF: Yes, yes. Well I mean, that was when I was at Newmarket you see, at Exning, during the war, yes, I suppose you did, but I mean he, Harrison, the man at Newmarket, the Air Vice Marshal, was, as I say, very difficult to get on with to begin with as he didn’t like women because he’d been left at the altar, but he, I mean we tamed him, he became quite human, but he wasn’t easy. I mean if we went to a party, we had Corporal Wynn, the driver, and a Humber car, and we’d go out to this party, you know, and he didn’t drink, he’d have that much beer and then he’d come up to me and say ‘well I’m going home now, if you can get a lift you can stay.’ [Laugh] He was terribly non-party so that was when I invariably got a lift with Alan you see, went home with Alan because he was then stationed at 3 Group where I was, having a rest from operations and so he used to take me home, so that’s how we met really.
HB: Ah, right. That falls into line now. [Cough] When you worked for Sir Norman Bottomley, you got a Mentioned in Despatches.
MF: Yes.
HB: What was that for? Being very good?
MF: [Laughter] Well, I must have been quite good I suppose at something!
HB: Can you remember what year that would be?
MF: 40, what 50? When did I work for him, 50?
HB: Well you finished with the RAF when you were married, which was er, 1946.
MF: Yes well that was when I got my MiD, when I left him, you know.
HB: Right, so that’s. Right. And do you know if that was published in the Gazette, the London Gazette?
MF: Well I suppose it was. Yes they would be.
HB: Oh, right, so, social life, in the RAF, you’ve joined the RAF, you’ve done your training, what was your social life like?
MF: Oh marvellous! [Laughter]
HB: It was, it was good was it?
MF: Absolutely! Yes, I mean even uncommissioned we had great fun, good parties and things and I’m a party girl, you know, like people. Oh, we had great time and then when I was commissioned we had marvellous parties at Newmarket and Exning. [Chuckle]
HB: Oh right. Were the parties in private houses and places or did you have them on station?
MF: Oh, on the station mainly. Yes, yes.
HB: Did you go to any of the parties out at say somewhere like Lakenheath, or?
MF: Oh yes, oh we went everywhere, yes, all round because 3 Group covered Lakenheath and all those things in Suffolk you see, stations in Suffolk so we never stopped. But as I say my boss then, Harrison, didn’t like parties, so that’s why I had such a good time. [Laugh]
HB: So you were left to your own devices. Oh, that’s wonderful, that’s wonderful. So you met Alan when you were at 3 Group.
MF: Yes, ‘cause he came in for a rest from his operations.
HB: He would have been, ‘cause he was in four squadrons as far as I can find out. He was in 7 Squadron, 35 Squadron, 156 and 161.
MF: 161. All Pathfinders.
HB: Yeah. And he, at the time you [emphasis] met him, in 3 Group, what rank was he then?
MF: He was Squadron Leader.
HB: He was Squadron Leader. Right. So, there’s this dashing Squadron Leader, having a rest from operations.
MF: Operations, in Newmarket, Exning. Yes.
HB: And he swept off your feet!
MF: Yes, sort of. [Laughter]
HB: Or you were just great friends and gradually got swept off your feet. So just going on with the theme of Alan, Alan had joined the RAF quite early.
MF: Yes, he joined at sixteen, said he was seventeen.
HB: Did he? Right.
MF: But he was very tall, so he looked seventeen you know, so he got away with it.
HB: Initially where did he start his training, can you remember?
MF: Of course I didn’t know him in those days. He lived in Gloucestershire. I can’t remember.
HB: ‘Cause he would have joined as, what, something like a Leading Aircraftsman I would think. If he was going to.
MF: Yes.
HB: And can you remember where he did his flying training?
MF: Where he started? No I can’t.
HB: So actually, thinking back, if he joined in, when he was sixteen.
MF: He said he was seventeen.
HB: That would be, that would be just about 1939?
MF: Yes.
HB: Right at the beginning of the war.
MF: Yes, right at the beginning.
HB: Yeah. So it’s possible he learnt his flying in this country.
MF: Oh yes, oh definitely.
HB: Before they started sending them to South Africa and Canada.
MF: Oh yes.
HB: So he did his pilot training and went to squadron. He flew an awful lot of operations, didn’t he.
MF: Oh yes, yes. Whole lot. I couldn’t, I should have looked out the books for you.
HB: Oh no, no. It’s what you [emphasis] can remember of it because obviously that’s a little bit closer. If think if memory serves, he certainly flew seventy or more operations.
MF: Oh yes.
HB: And eventually became a Master Bomber?
MF: Yes, he was a Master Bomber.
HB: With Pathfinders, so, while he was doing that, you’ve had the party time and you’ve now moved on, so you’re serving at the level of Sir Norman Bottomley, and you’re seeing the strategy and everything, but you must also have seen the returns coming in of the losses.
MF: Oh yes.
HB: And Alan was still flying then, obviously. So how did, did you just accept that, or did it concern you?
MF: Well you did it was going on all the time, wasn’t it, I mean you know, it was all part of the war so you just accepted it. You were sad for twenty four hours when somebody you knew lost their life, but that was it. I mean there we are.
HB: Sad time. Lot of good people went.
MF: Mm hm.
HB: Yeah. The, so as you’ve come, as Alan was coming towards the end of the war, before you went, before you were married, did you sit down and talk about what you thought you might do after the war or was it just accepted?
MF: Oh, I mean we didn’t think we’d ever come out of the Air Force, I didn’t. I didn’t want to. But he thought it was better for him, I mean the money was better and we had three children to educate, so that was one reason, you know, when he came out, but it was the worst thing we ever did because I think he would have made a very good high rank officer. I didn’t want to come out, but there we are, what do you do.
HB: Am I right, were there rules about whether or not you could stay if you were married to a serving RAF officer?
MF: You could stay.
HB: Could you stay if you were married?
MF: Oh yes. Well.
HB: If you, sorry, a woman officer, could a woman officer stay in the RAF if she married another RAF officer?
MF: Oh no! Well I don’t think so. I suppose so, I don’t know. I mean I got out, I gave up because of having children.
HB: Yeah, I see what you mean, right, so Alan’s flown all these tours, you’ve eventually come back to Bomber Command, what was Alan doing in Bomber Command before you went to Buenos Aires, can you remember?
MF: Goodness, I ought to. What was he doing? I can’t remember now. No.
HB: I mean obviously he was working on things at a higher level.
MF: Yes, yes. That’s right.
HB: To become an Assistant ADC, sorry, Air Attaché, is quite, obviously quite demanding. So, I think what we’ll do is, I’ll terminate the interview now because I think there’s so much of Alan’s memorabilia that we need to look in to, we need to research properly, it’s unfair to ask you all the questions without the documents in front of you, so I think what we’ll do is, we’ll terminate the interview now, and I thank you on behalf of the Digital Archive for what you’ve told us.
MF: It’s silly, the things I’ve forgotten, but you do after all these years, you know.
HB: Absolutely. It’s been a pleasure, it’s er, I haven’t got a clock, I’ll have to just have a quick check, it’s quarter to eleven, sorry, I do have it wrong.
MF: Five to eleven.
HB: It’s five to eleven, and we’re just going to just stop the interview there and I’ve photographs to take, so thank you very much, I’ll just stop that. Supplementary to the interview, it’s 11.38, we’ve been chatting and Mary has just been telling me about an incident which I think is relevant. So just tell me what happened when you came back from France to see Alan.
MF: Well I saw them land in, from Brazil, and then a week later he rang me up and said would you like to come on this flypast?
HB: And the date of the flypast? 6th. 6th of June?
MF: 6th of June, yes.
HB: 6th of June 1946.
MF: And I said yes please, so I flew with Michael Beetham who was on Alan’s right, Alan was the commander and so I flew with him and it was absolutely marvellous, and then went back to Gravely where they were stationed, had a marvellous lunch and very late because I mean they were so good to the Air Force, you know, didn’t mind, and that was when he said, somebody said ‘Mary, what are you going to do when you leave the WAAF’, and I said ‘I don’t know’, and before I could say anything he said ‘she’s going to marry me.’ Just like that! [Laughter]
HB: Right! So the flypast was over London.
MF: Over London, yes.
HB: Over Buckingham Palace.
MF: Yes, over Buckingham Palace.
HB: [Cough] And it was a flight of Lancasters.
MF: Whoops. Come and see.
HB: Steady, steady!
MF: Whoops. I’ve got this.
HB: Got it. Just going to pause the interview. We just paused the interview there.
MF: Can I offer you anything drink? Would you like a sherry or something, dear?
HB: No I’m fine thank you, I’m fine. We’ve just paused the interview to pop out into the hall and take some photographs of the various pictures that Mary has of her late husband Alan’s career, the most important being the 8th of June Flypast in the white Lancasters, with Mary sat in the right hand plane with, what was his name? Bentham?
MF: It was amazing!
HB: You obviously thoroughly enjoyed that.
MF: Oh absolutely! I mean I was young enough then to enjoy all these things and I sat on this little bit, you know, about that big, all the way over London!
HB: About the size of a footstool. Oh dear. Could you actually see out of the aircraft?
MF: Oh yes, a bit. Yes.
HB: Exciting!
MF: It was exciting. I was the only girl on the, in all this. Amazing.
HB: Wow, wow! So how, I notice in Alan’s medals he has the DSO. What did he get the DSO for?
MF: Oh goodness, [sigh] I can’t remember, some bombing, you know, thing. I don’t know.
HB: Oh right, ‘cause I know he got a DFC early on for bringing a very badly damaged aircraft back.
MF: Yes. DSO, DFC, AFC. Well the AFC was in peacetime I think, wasn’t it.
HB: Yeah. The Air Force Cross. Yes, but they aren’t, they’re not a common medal. He must have done something Mary!
MF: You what?
HB: He must have done something to earn it! [Laughter] I notice in the photograph of the medals there’s one there that has the look of an Argentinian medal, was that a gratitude medal from Argentina, for his service there? Buenos Aires.
MF: Oh yes. Yes, that’s right.
HB: That’s great.
MF: Yes, we, it’s rather nice, wasn’t it.
HB: Yes it is, very nice medal that one. So in, having gone through all of that time, he’s flown all the aircraft he flew during the Second World War and he’s ended up, he ended up flying Canberras. And where were they stationed?
MF: At Kinloss.
HB: At Kinloss. The photo reconnaissance and surveillance aircraft.
MF: Yes.
HB: So did he ever comment on the change from, the change in technology and aircraft.
MF: Not really, no. We had one tragedy there. There was a dining in night and a message came through that the ‘Truculent’ had gone down in the Thames and Kinloss had the only lifting gear, so Alan asked for a volunteer crew to, would they pick up this lifting gear, take it down to the Thames to get the ‘Truculent’ out.
HB: This was the submarine.
MF: Yes. And he got a volunteer crew. They went and crashed into an aircraft, into a mountain about five miles from Kinloss, just on take off: they were all killed. It was the most dreadful [emphasis] night, awful thing. And of course, well the ‘Truculent’, everybody drowned in the ‘Truculent’. So dreadful night. Always remember that.
HB: That must have affected Alan, quite.
MF: Oh yes, I mean, well it’s so depressing. I had all, we didn’t have any quarters at Kinloss, but we had a very nice flat in a big house in Forres and I had the wives in for supper because it was a dining in night, you know, and next thing was we knew, all the husbands coming up, well Alan and lots of his members, coming up the stairs, to tell these wives that their husbands had been killed.
HB: Oh no!
MF: Awful. Dreadful night, you know. Never forget it.
HB: That was.
MF: Yes. Think, as I say, he asked for a volunteer crew and, well there we are, they all crashed into this. So that was a very sad night at Kinloss.
HB: Yes, yes, it’s, it’s the sort of incident that hits you very personally, it’s so involved.
MF: Oh yes, hm. Yes, I mean we all knew, well we all knew each other so well; I’m very gregarious and so was Alan, we all got on with everybody, you know.
HB: Yes, difficult time.
MF: Yes, very difficult.
HB: Difficult to remember as well, it’s an emotional thing to remember, it’s yes, difficult to talk about, yes. So we’ll come to the end of our supplementary interview, [laughing] that’s very, very kind of you Mary, thank you for letting me record that.
MF: Oh not a bit, I hope you’ll come back!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AFoisterMS171010, PLairdCraig1701
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mary Stanley Foister
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:49:11 audio recording
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-10
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Stanley Foister grew up in Buckinghamshire, where her father's farm was taken over as Bomber Command Headquarters. She served in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force after she left school. Following training, she had a number of administrative posts as PA to high ranking RAF officers. Mary married Alan Craig, a Pathfinder pilot, and had three children. She was posted to several different locations during her service and in her married life before they settled down in Leicestershire. Mary tells of her various experiences during her life associated with the RAF, including flying on the Victory Flypast in London.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Argentina
Brazil
France
Great Britain
Argentina--Buenos Aires
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--London
Brazil--Rio de Janeiro
Scotland--Moray
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1946
1948
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
Carolyn Emery
35 Squadron
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
Pathfinders
RAF Graveley
RAF High Wycombe
RAF Kinloss
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/258/3405/PGanneyK1714.2.jpg
6fb1840bce686f93c05487b2d52af5e7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/258/3405/AGanneyK170301.2.mp3
36f95d68dd3df62895cef4b33b9aef33
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ganney, Keith
Keith Ganney
K Ganney
Description
An account of the resource
23 items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer Keith Ganney (b. 1922, 1324929 Royal Air Force), his log books, documents and photographs. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 57 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Keith Ganney and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ganney, K
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: This is an interview with Keith Ganney, flying officer with 57 squadron whose date of birth is 10th of November 1922. His service number was 1324929. Interview is taking place at ****. Interviewer is Harry Bartlett, a volunteer with the International Bomber Command Centre. Good morning Mr Ganney.
KG: Good morning.
HB: Perhaps you could just give us an idea of what you were doing prior to the war starting.
KG: Yes, well, are we recording now?
HB: Yes. Yes. We are on recording.
KG: Do what Max Bygraves used to say, ‘I’m going to tell you a story.’
HB: You carry on.
KG: I’m going to start at the beginning. I met my wife when she was not quite seventeen in 19, early 1942. Her birthday is the 6th of February 1942 and I’d met her through going on a fairly regular basis to a bank on behalf of the company I worked for and I then decided I ought to take her out to lunch because I really fancied her. Is this all right?
HB: Yeah. This is your interview.
KG: I really fancied her so I took her out to lunch and it cost me a small fortune in so far as she said she wasn’t hungry and she had a bowl of soup which would cost about one and a half pence in today’s money. I don’t know what I had. And then a week or so after that I took her to the pictures and we saw a film called, “Ships with Wings,” and she was most impressed with me because I had been given a nice wallet by my parents when I was nineteen in the previous November, November 1941 and I pulled out a shiny, five, a pound note and that seemed to impress her. So obviously at that time she was after my money.
HB: [laughs] A man of substance.
KG: Yeah. Anyhow, we dated then for a few weeks until I joined and I’d already enlisted in the December 1941, the RAF and I was called up in, I think it was February ’42 and we went to St John ’s Wood and crossed Abbey Road long before the Beatles were even born. So we we went there for kitting out and whatever. Make sure we were still alive I guess. From there we went down to Brighton for marching and learning how to salute which is obviously a pre-requisite if you’re flying on Lancasters. So we stayed at Brighton for about a few weeks at the Metropole Hotel in Brighton and from there we moved to Scarborough and at Scarborough, in Scarborough one afternoon I was called out with about four others, my name was first on the list, to be guard commander for the officer, officer inspecting because we were guarding the Grand Hotel in Scarborough which is a grand hotel or was and I said, ‘Well I know nothing about rifles or anything like that,’ and this sergeant, I should think he was the 1914/18 sergeant, he said, ‘Weren’t you in the ATC?’ So I said, ‘No.’ ‘Or the air training corps or cadet corps?’ So I said, ‘No. I don’t even know which side of the shoulder you put your rifle on.’ So he said, ‘Oh God,’ he said, ‘Well in that case, number two you’d better be guard commander. You’d better be guard commander until the inspection and then you can take over as guard commander,’ which is what we did. I think there were about four or five of us. There wasn’t a bullet amongst us. If a German had come up we would have surrendered Scarborough plus the Grand Hotel without any trouble at all. So that was a little escapade in Scarborough. From Scarborough we moved to Brough just outside Hull for initial training on flying Tiger Moths and I qualified for flying Tiger Moths after, I think about ten hours and from then on we got shuttled off to Canada. We went out on the Queen Mary, the old Queen Mary and eventually when we came back we came back on the old Queen Elizabeth. And then we went to New York. From New York we went by train to New Brunswick to a town called Moncton where, I don’t know what we did there, we just festered around I think until such time as we were allotted to various places around Canada. It so happened that myself together with I think three or four other blokes were sent to Saskatchewan. A little place called Davidson of about five hundred people right in the middle of the prairies. Nice flat area for flying in and it was lovely going from Moncton out to Saskatchewan by train, one of these big Canadian type trains. I think it took us about two or three nights to get there. Am I doing to much?
HB: Absolutely spot on.
KG: Is it?
HB: Yeah. Absolutely super.
KG: We then went, got to Davidson. There were only about five hundred people, as far as I can remember, in this town, inverted commas and the girls there had never seen an English person because it was way out in the, in the sticks. The thing was, ‘Say something. We think you’re cute.’ So we, I started to fly Cornells there. A two seater aeroplane. A little bit up from a Tiger Moth. A single, single plane and during one of those escapades I was sitting in the parachute room and an instructor came in, I didn’t know who he was, and he said, ‘Where’s your instructor?’ I said, ‘He’s got the day off.’ So he said, ‘Have you, have you done aerobatics?’ So I said, ‘No.’ ‘Well get your chute on. We’ll do some aerobatics.’ Well it so happened that I’d been gorging myself on peanuts so you can imagine what happened when I, when we were doing loops and God knows what and he said when I coughed up, he said ‘Tastes better the first time doesn’t it?’ So anyhow I spent Christmas of 1942 it would be because at this time of year it was around about December and the Christmas 1942 with some people who had asked to take on a couple of RAF people and eventually I went solo on Cornells and did quite a lot of trips on them as my logbook will show you. From there we went to a place called Dauphin, D A U P H I N. Dauphin in Manitoba to fly on Cessna Cranes, twin engines Cessna Cranes. Like a downmarket version of an Anson. So I flew those and, sorry, my train of thought’s going. So after, after that they tested me after I’d done a lot of flying. My log book will tell you how many hours I did there but did a lot of flying, they tested me and found me wanting.
HB: Oh dear.
KG: Which I was, on hindsight I was very, very pleased about. I was kicked off the pilot’s course and because they didn’t think I’d make a very good pilot although I’d done a lot of cross countries by myself and if if they hadn’t had kicked me, if they had kept me going it’s almost certain I would be dead because I would have entered flying a lot earlier than I ultimately did. So I then had to re-muster and I decided well the quickest way to get back home was a short course as opposed to navigation which was a bit of a longer course, I enrolled as a bomb aimer and I went to a place called Paulsen I think it was. Paulsen. And qualified as a bomb aimer there in about 19, early 1943. Perhaps you can tell.
HB: I’ve just come to, in your Canadian logbook.
KG: Yeah.
HB: April 1943 you’re flying a Crane and it’s a progress check.
KG: Yeah.
HB: And then this -
KG: That was in April.
HB: Yeah. And this, this logbook then finishes. I’m sure. Yes. There’s no other entries in there and we move to your smaller A5 size Canadian logbook and that starts May 29th 1943 and you’re on an Anson.
KG: Yes, that’s right.
HB: 8603
KG: We -
HB: With Sergeant Sagar.
KG: We came, we came back, as I say on the Queen Elizabeth and we were posted to Penrhos in North Wales where we did further training at AFU, Advanced Flying Unit practicing bomb aiming with twenty two pound smoke bombs and things like that and the pilots were also practicing. From there we went, from there where did we go?
HB: Well that was, that was, the AFU was number 9 AFU at Penrhos.
KG: Penrhos that’s right.
HB: Penrhos. And so you then went to the 17 OTU at Silverstone.
KG: OTU.
HB: March.
KG: Operational Training Unit and we -
HB: March 1944.
KG: I think it was before that. We flew on, we got allocated to the various crews and there again your life depended on who chose you. It was just like picking up a football team in the playground when you were about ten years old. I’ll have him, I’ll have him and there was no question of what were your abilities or anything. It was just by chance.
HB: Where did you do that Keith? Was that in a sort of like a big hangar or -
KG: I can’t remember where we actually did the selection but it was just a very much of a random selection of a whole swarm of people saying, ‘Well I’ll have him and I’ll have him,’ until you’ve got the seven bods that you need. Then we flew there. I think it, wasn’t it the Advanced Flying Unit? AFU, as I say.
HB: I’m just looking at your logbook here and it’s got you, you’re at the AFU until mid-February
KG: Yeah.
HB: ‘43, sorry ’44.
KG: Yeah on the AFU we, we were flying Wellingtons, this was for the pilot’s benefit, Wellingtons and Stirlings.
HB: Oh right.
KG: Until we, from there we graduated on flying the bigger stuff until we went to the OTU and Operational Training Unit and eventually we went on to what they called the LFS. Lancaster Finishing School.
HB: Yeah.
KG: So by that time I think we were in 1944, early 1944 maybe the end of ‘43.
HB: I’ve got, I’ve got in your logbook here if it helps June the 16th 1944. Conversion Unit Wigsley.
KG: Wigsley yeah.
HB: And it starts, that starts off with Stirlings.
KG: Yeah. That was June ’44 was it?
HB: That was in June ’44.
KG: Then you go on to the LFS I think.
HB: Yeah and then we’ve the LFS up the road at Nottingham at Syerston there.
KG: Syerston, yeah.
HB: July 28th
KG: So that’s where we went first on to Lancasters. Then we got posted. Then we got posted to East Kirkby, to the squadron.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And the skipper was a Geordie lad from around the Houghton le Spring area of Durham and he seemed very keen to get on to operations. I wasn’t all that keen ’cause I thought you could be killed.
HB: Yeah.
KG: So eventually he kept on going to the squadron leader and the squadron leader, ‘No. You can’t go on this one. You haven’t done any daylight trips yet. You can’t go on that one because it’s too far. And it was typical RAF one of the first two trips that we went on Konigsberg.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Which was about eleven.
HB: Eleven hours.
KG: Eleven hours, eleven and a quarter hours and we got caught in the searchlights there. We weaved our way out of them and we had to divert when we got back to the UK. I think we landed somewhere up in Scotland somewhere and had to stay there the night because of bad weather and the next day which was a Sunday we took off to go back to our own base and he was determined to fly over his house because he was more or less enroute so he flew over his house and revved up these four Lancaster engines vroom vroom so you can imagine the noise.
HB: Yeah.
KG: They make and eventually of course his family came out and he did some sneak turns and he could see his family house and his parents apparently. So that was Konigsberg. First trip. Then the following Saturday we went to Konigsberg again.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
KG: We obviously hadn’t done a very good job.
HB: Oh dear.
KG: Not done a very good job. So that was two very long trips.
HB: Can I just ask you something Keith? I’m just looking at your logbook here and you’ve got two night time operations 16th and 18th of August. One is called bullseye.
KG: Oh well those are -
HB: The Hague.
KG: Yeah.
HB: And bullseye. What were the bullseye operations?
KG: Bullseye was a sort of a training flight.
HB: Right.
KG: A pseudo operation. And sometimes when you went on a bullseye you’d, you know, a crowd of you, various aircraft from other squadrons or other parts of 5 group would go out in to the North Sea and whatever as if it was going to be a raid so that was a bullseye.
HB: Right.
KG: But it wasn’t an operation as such.
HB: Yeah.
KG: I think, I think after that what have we got as the next one?
HB: Yeah. You’ve done the two Konigsberg and then you do a daytime raid.
KG: Yeah. That’s right.
HB: To Burgainsville.
KG: Yeah. That was for, that was for these flying bomb sites.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
KG: All the night flights are in red.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And the green flights are day flights. We then carried on. I don’t think there was anything particularly exciting.
HB: Well you did, well you did Boulogne. That, that could be a bit hairy I think.
KG: Yeah.
HB: I’ve been told.
KG: Boulogne. I don’t remember -
HB: Bremerhaven.
KG: Bremerhaven. Yeah, we went to Bremerhaven. I mean we got shot at obviously and, just turn off the tape a minute will you.
HB: Yeah. No problem.
KG: Please. Just a second.
[machine paused]
HB: Interview recommenced just while Mr Ganney had a little cough. Well you had number 6 operation was Bremerhaven.
KG: Yeah.
HB: But then number twelve which would make you fairly experienced then because you’d done quite a few daytime ops, that was Bremen.
KG: I think it was probably Bremen.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Anyhow, when, shall I repeat - ?
HB: Yes. Yes please. Yeah.
KG: We were instructed bomb Bremen docks I suppose and the town and we were told to run up on a single marker on the ground laid by the master bomber and each aircraft was given a different angle to come in at and a different time delay. So the thing was that you do saturate the bombing and because we were an experienced crew at that time we had, I think it was a twenty eight seconds delay and as bomb aimer I lined everything up and I had to shout out, ‘Now,’ when we got exactly on the marker and the navigator was supposed to count twenty eight seconds and tell me when effectively to release the bombs. So after flying through loads of flak and God knows what, the fighters as well I suppose he, I said, ‘Isn’t it that time?’ ‘Oh my God,’ he said, ‘I’ve forgotten to count.’ So immediately I let the bombs go. Where they finished up I don’t know and the, when I went for a commission this matter was raised with the commanding officer as to why my picture, ‘cause you always took photographs, why my picture was so far away from the centre so I had to tell him what had happened. So that was a silly situation. So -
HB: It obviously didn’t affect the, the inevitable promotion.
KG: Well no. I mean getting a commission in those days was like going up for a NAAFI ration.
HB: Oh
KG: You know.
HB: Yeah.
KG: If your face fitted you’d be in.
HB: Yeah.
KG: So that was Bremen I think.
HB: You’ve got an entry in here for November. November the 1st, daytime operation against Homberg which was oil.
KG: That was oil.
HB: And all you’ve written in your log, this is what amazes me about these log books, you’ve just written flak hold and then brackets sixteen.
KG: I can’t remember that.
HB: Yeah.
KG: I can’t remember.
HB: But the next one was a night one at Dusseldorf.
KG: Dusseldorf is, is a story in itself.
HB: Yeah.
KG: We went out to bomb Dusseldorf on an absolutely perfect moonlight night. Not a cloud in the sky. We bombed Dusseldorf as an experienced crew for a fairly low level. That was thirteen thousand feet if I remember rightly and we went through the target area, bombed and immediately we came out of the target area we were attacked by an ME109 and with his first burst he wounded, severely wounded the rear gunner so we hadn’t got him firing back and then the mid-upper gunner’s guns weren’t operating correctly and all we had was the mid-upper gunner on the top of the aircraft telling us where this fighter was. Now when you are being attacked by a fighter the thing is to do is what they call corkscrews and it’s up to the mid-upper gunner to tell the pilot when to corkscrew because you know he comes in the rear and you turn and he turns and he’s got to turn a lot more and then you roll and then he comes back in again and this went on. I think it’s somewhere in the archives it was about fifteen minutes ‘cause this bloke obviously knew he wasn’t going to get anybody firing back at him and I couldn’t fire anything from the front turret because I never even saw the chap ‘cause he came in, dived away, came around again and eventually this, according to the mid-upper gunner and I’ve got no support for this thing, he said the ME109 came in quite close, he said, ‘I could see the bloke and he waggled his wings and dived away.’ That was the end of the attack. Possibly he was out of range for operations or he’d run out of ammunition. I don’t know. So we flew on and I think by this time we were down to about five thousand feet and the mid-upper gunner called out, ‘Somebody had better come back and see if Vic’s alright because we can’t get him on the intercom.’ So being the most useless person in the aircraft I was told to go back and climb over everything, over the main spar and whatever. Go back and see what was happening and the mid-upper gunner also gave me great confidence because he said, ‘You’d better put your parachute on because there’s a bloody great hole in the side of this aircraft somewhere,’ and so I said, ‘Well perhaps somebody had better come with me.’ So the flight engineer, all he does really is sit alongside the pilot and look at the instruments so he came with me and he was a nineteen year old lad and he came back with me ‘cause I was, what shall we say, a coward. Right. I didn’t want to go back by myself in case anything happened and when we got back over the main spar there was the rear gunner lying in what I thought was a load of blood. It turned out it was sort of a pinky oil but you know, in the light there you can’t tell which was which. So we tried to give him some morphia which I don’t think we succeeded in doing because I don’t think we did it properly and we actually gave him a cigarette and I was told to stay with him all the way back to base so I sat there and of course when I’m sitting there you could look out the side of the aircraft. There was a big big hole. You could practically walk through it.
HB: Right.
KG: And you could see the tail fins waving a bit in the breeze and so we flew back. We flew back to Woodbridge. American. Do you know Woodbridge?
HB: I’ve heard of Woodbridge. Yeah.
KG: Well Woodbridge was an American base basically and just had one very long runway and all these flying fortress and it they had trouble they just came in depended which way the wind was blown they just came in and landed so we came in to Woodbridge and we’d obviously radioed ahead and the, my memory’s going, so when we landed, just were running down the runway the starboard tyre burst and we tipped over a bit on to one wing. Anyhow, the blood wagon and the fire engine and the doctor and God knows who came out and took us into the medical bay and gave us tots of rum. Well I don’t drink and I can’t stand the taste of rum and I just took one sip of this rum and I said, ‘Oh God I can’t drink that,’ and the wireless operator was a nineteen, twenty year old, again a Geordie who liked his booze. He said, ‘Wahay man,’ he said, ‘I’ll have it.’ So he he took this thing and we were obviously there for the night. The next morning, the next morning we went out to have a look at the aircraft which was semi riddled with holes. Why it hadn’t burst into flames God only knows and there was the tail fin all flapping in the breeze. Just walking around there and I said to the mid-upper gunner, ‘Have you seen your whistle George?’ Well there’s a picture of it in there. There was a big indent in this whistle where I imagine it was the shape of a bullet.
HB: Right.
KG: And of course you wear it around your throat.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And George Hillier realised what that meant. That if it hadn’t hit the whistle he would have been a goner even if it was only a piece of shrapnel it was certainly you could see the picture in there and when he eventually came to leave the RAF at the end of his flying career they had to hand in all their gear, boots and everything they charged him threepence for his whistle ‘cause he kept it. Charged him threepence for his whistle. So that was, that was Dusseldorf and we went a week, or two or three weeks later to the hospital where the chap was and saw him there but if, the thing is, if he, if the mid-upper gunner had been killed and if that whistle hadn’t, shall we say, effectively saved his life then we would never have known where this fighter was and we would have been dead as mutton.
HB: Oh dear.
KG: Anyhow, the skipper, he got the DFC and the mid-upper gunner, because of his commentary he got the DFM and people say to me, ‘What did you get?’ I said I got the screaming abdabs. Yeah so –
HB: Absolutely. Your rear gunner. Did you say his name was Vic?
KG: Vic. Vic Lewell.
HB: Yeah. And did he, did he recover?
KG: He recovered and he died some, oh many years later really but he showed us all the shrapnel they’d taken out of him. There was the nose of a canon shell in amongst his souvenirs.
HB: Blimey.
KG: Yeah.
HB: So, but obviously to carry on you would have had another rear gunner join you.
KG: No. Yes. We did. We had another rear, rear gunner. The other, the other thing is it comes on to the next story. Am I doing too much?
HB: No. No. You’re doing great.
KG: The next story. We went to Trondheim. You’ll see it in there.
HB: I’ve got, I’ve got one marked Trondheim abortive.
KG: That’s right.
HB: That’s 22nd of November.
KG: 22nd of November. Anyhow, we went to Trondheim to bomb the U-boat pens and docks and God knows what and we were then told to abort the raid because the master bomber couldn’t mark the target accurately enough to avoid killing a load of Norwegians so we were instructed to fly back home. I don’t know how many aircraft, we often used to have a hundred, two hundred from 5 Group. So, as I said in that thing there, coming back over the North Sea at the end of November there aint a lot to see. You don’t see any lights. You’re not going to get any fighters around there. There was no flak. So I don’t know whether I dozed off or not, I don’t know but we were flying quite steadily and all of a sudden George Hillier who was the mid-upper gunner called out, ‘For Christ’s sake pull up Jack. We’re hitting the sea,’ and we were literally hitting the sea. You know how when you’re a kid you skim a stone -
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
KG: Over the sea. Well we must have been doing that without, without knowing it so we must have been flying a couple of inches I should think.
HB: Blimey.
KG: So he immediately pulls up and flew up to about five thousand feet and as the bomb aimer I said to the skipper, ‘You ought to jettison these bombs.’ You know you don’t normally want to land with a load of bombs on board or it might not be loads. So he said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘At the briefing we were told that if we didn’t bomb we were to bring them back ‘cause they were getting scarce,’ and I said to him at the time, ‘And so are people like me getting scarce.’ So we, we flew back, we flew back and I said, ‘I bet you’ve lost your tail wheel’. I don’t know what he said to that and so we flew, flew back and as we landed of course, with a Lanc you, or with a lot of aircraft you land on the front two wheels and slow down and the back drops down doesn’t it?
HB: Yes. Yeah.
KG: Well, we slowed down on the runway and of course the rear turret gets dragged along the runway. We had a Canadian rear gunner at that time because, because -
HB: Do you want me, do you want me to just give you a break a minute?
[machine paused]
HB: Right. We’ve all had a cough and we’ve ordered our coffees.
KG: We’ve got the new rear gunner because ours had been wounded a few weeks previously and we had a Canadian at the time and I remember this Canadian calling out, ‘What the hell goes on here? My goddamn ass is on fire,’ because his rear turret was being dragged along the runway, the fins of the aircraft had been cut down to ground level I suppose.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And he’d got all these sparks coming up the aircraft. So we pulled on to the grass and stepped out of the aircraft ‘cause you didn’t have to get the ladder out. You were on the, practically on the ground already.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And the skipper calls down to his drinking partner from the Durham area, George called, ‘Is there much damage George?’ ‘Away man,’ he said, ‘You’ll hardly notice it.’ And of course the instrument bulge underneath, that had gone. The fins had cut down to sort of ground level, the rear turret was a bit of a mess and he said you’d hardly notice it. Well a few days, two or three days later he was told to report to the CO with his logbook and he thought he was going to get a brownie point.
HB: This was the pilot.
KG: The pilot. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
KG: He thought he was going to get a brownie point for bringing the aircraft back after hitting the sea. Instead of that he got a red endorsement. It’s in there, in that folder somewhere, the actual endorsement.
HB: Blimey.
KG: You can, you can have those.
HB: Yeah.
KG: If you’d like to take them with you you can.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Have a look through them if you want to. So where was I?
HB: He’d just had his red endorsement.
KG: Yeah, he -
HB: He was -
KG: He’d got this red endorsement and he got a red endorsement for not flying at the correct height, disobeying, was it disobeying instruction? Not flying at the correct height. Hitting, allowing his aircraft to hit the sea. So it’s not me making up my mind or making a story.
HB: No.
KG: It’s there in sort of, I was going to say black and white, it’s in red and white.
HB: Yeah.
KG: So that was, that was a bit hair raising.
HB: I can imagine. I can imagine. But that, but that, that pilot what was his name? Vasey.
KG: Vasey.
HB: That, that pilot at that time he’s already got the DFC, he’s on his, you’re on your twenty first, twenty second -
KG: Yeah.
HB: Mission. Operation, sorry and he’s got a red endorsement.
KG: Yeah, doesn’t affect him. Didn’t sort of say, in that case you can’t fly.
HB: No. No.
KG: Not like a driving licence if you get a red endorsement they might ban you from driving. They can’t ban you from flying really.
HB: Yeah.
KG: So -
HB: I notice in here you’ve got one of the operations, Keith is December the 8th and it’s Heimbach Dam.
KG: Yeah. I don’t remember much about it. It was -
HB: Oh right.
KG: A standard raid as far as I can remember.
HB: Oh right it’s nothing, nothing special.
KG: Nothing exciting.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
KG: The next thing that happened I think was on our last trip which was to a place called Siegen I think you’ll find.
HB: Yes. I’ve got Siegen that was February the 1st 1945.
KG: That’s right. And we were flying across something like Holland or somewhere like that and this, the navigator, he was pretty old, he was twenty eight. The rest of us were all twenty two and under and we, he said, ‘We’ll have to go back to base because my navigation things have gone haywire,’ so Jack Vasey said, ‘I’m not bloody going back to base,’ he said, ‘We haven’t returned to base yet on any trip,’ he said, ‘I’m not going to do this on our last trip,’ and he said -
HB: Just pausing the tape.
[machine paused]
HB: Right. Coffee having arrived we can restart.
KG: I think it was what they called the Gee and something else, the H2S, I’m not quite sure and he said, ‘Well give it a kick.’ Whether he did give it a kick or not I don’t know but anyhow he said, ‘Keith can map read us from the front turret, from the front nose. Keith can map read us until the, until it gets dark and then we’ll follow the searchlights.’ That just shows you how navigation has changed.
HB: Yeah. Just a bit.
KG: Well today you could put a bomb up a bloke’s exhaust pipe practically.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And blow him up. Yeah. So, we we bombed [Seagan?] and that was our last trip.
HB: Yeah. I’ve just noticed, I’ve just noticed on this one, that’s six hours twenty minutes to [Seagan?].
KG: Yeah.
HB: But you had, you had some very long flights didn’t you? Eleven hours, ten hours.
KG: Yeah.
HB: Munich was ten and a half hours.
KG: Munich. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
KG: We bombed, we did bomb Munich. It was lovely going over the mountains just inside Switzerland.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Really. They didn’t fire at us.
HB: Didn’t they?
KG: No. I don’t suppose they have a gun in Switzerland did they? So we bombed bombed Munich. It was very awe inspiring to see the Alps. I mean we were flying at about seventeen thousand I suppose, the Alps were about eighteen thousand.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Or thereabouts.
HB: Yeah. Not something you want to bump into. So that’s, you’ve got in your book here, finished first tour February 1st 1944. Sorry 1945.
KG: Yeah.
HB: And you’d flown -
KG: I don’t know that.
HB: Two hundred and fifty eighty hours and forty minutes daytime flying.
KG: Yeah.
HB: And two hundred and sixty six hours fifteen minutes night flying.
KG: Oh right. I didn’t know that.
HB: That’s quite a few, quite a few hours that is and then you only get, you must have only, I suppose you had a little bit of leave and then you went off to Swinderby.
KG: That’s right. I went as a so called bombing instructor at Swinderby.
HB: Right.
KG: And that was fine because I got my commission so I was in the posh mess and I festered around Swinderby for some little while I guess and then it all finished and they more or less said, ‘Well where would you like to go?’ So I thought to myself Australia. I think I’ll go to Australia. It’s a nice long way away and I’m not likely to go there again so of course typical RAF where did I finish up? In the Sudan. Khartoum. But that was -
HB: That’s when you left Swinderby.
KG: That’s when I left Swinderby.
HB: Just looking in your logbook here Keith you’ve got one 24th of March 1945 you’ve got an entry here X VX 9 which I presume is exercise and it’s got France X C T Y and H L B I presume that’s -
KG: High level bombing.
HB: That’s high level bombing yeah.
KG: High level bombing.
HB: Yeah.
KG: That would be practice.
HB: Oh right. Right. And then on the next page in July this is just something I don’t know if you can remember about it, the 24th of July 1945 you got yourself with, the pilot is somebody called Daggett, you’re in a Lancaster and you’re going on a Cook’s Tour.
KG: Oh yeah. A Cook’s Tour. At the end of the war they took you around to show you what damage you’d done, you know. Have a look at the mess you made. So we flew around the Ruhr just having a look, a Cook’s Tour of -
HB: Yeah.
KG: Of the damage.
HB: You’ve even written down what you flew over. You flew over [Valkerin?].
KG: [Valkerin?] Yeah.
HB: Krefeld, Dusseldorf, Cologne, Essen, Dortmund, Ham and then etcetera. Blimey. Oh that’s a bit cutting. [laughs].
KG: What’s that?
HB: You’ve got August 23rd with a pilot called Enoch.
KG: Oh yeah.
HB: And you’ve got your duties as air bomber and it just says, Eric brackets waste of time.
KG: Most likely a code name for a practice flight I should think. I don’t know what Eric -
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I just wondered, just wondered if you could remember what X C T Y meant? Is that -
KG: Cross country.
HB: Oh right. Cross country. Right. That makes sense now.
KG: We often did that.
HB: Yeah.
KG: When we got nothing better to do we often do a cross country.
HB: So, so when did you go to the Sudan?
KG: Oh hell. Latish 1945 I suppose.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And I was out there for about six months swimming and playing tennis and I was supposed to be the air traffic officer.
HB: Right.
KG: But it was a little bit of a relaxation and a bit of a jolly really.
HB: Right. So that -
KG: A good experience to go somewhere like the Sudan.
HB: Yeah. So you sort of came to the Sudan and then you’re obviously on the down slope.
KG: Yeah.
HB: Heading towards -
KG: Demob.
HB: Demob. What, what was that sort of process like Keith?
KG: I don’t remember much about the demob process. I must have come back here and reported somewhere. They give you a suit and that’s you out of the air force so to speak and I went back to my old job which was, you see when I enlisted I was nineteen.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Nineteen. Well I wasn’t frightfully academic at the best of times but I did quite well with what nouse that I’d got and sorry my train of thoughts gone, and so I went back and having been a somebody -
HB: Yeah.
KG: I went back to this company where I was, in the eyes of the managing director, a nobody and I stayed with them until such time as the company was taken over by Plessey. Remember Plessey.
HB: Yes. Yes I do.
KG: They took us over and the, instead of us taking them over they took us over and they wanted me to go to Nottingham and offered me more money to go to Nottingham and I didn’t want to go because the kids were in grammar school in Enfield at the time so I then decided to make myself redundant and I was paid redundancy money because they were moving the company.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And I had already been invited by some people that I knew in STC to go and join them.
HB: Right. This is, this is all in the electronics industry.
KG: Well the telephone industry.
HB: Telephone industry. Yeah.
KG: I wasn’t a telephone engineer. I mean I wouldn’t, I know how to pick up a telephone and that’s about all but I became sales manager of a division where they sold the earpieces and mouthpieces, the microphone and the ear piece you know and I did quite well at that and I then retired from there in 1984. Yeah, about ‘84 on the grounds that I didn’t like the set up. It had all changed because people had been coming in and taking over this, taking over that and I thought to myself I don’t really want to stay here so I’ll take redundancy money and I left them.
HB: When did, when did you actually get married then Keith?
KG: 1947
HB: Right.
KG: So -
HB: And that was to your wife obviously.
KG: Peggy.
HB: Peggy
KG: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
KG: So but if you asked her now who she married she most likely wouldn’t know.
HB: No.
KG: Wouldn’t know when she was married. As I say she’s upstairs in bed I imagine.
HB: So how, and how many children did you have?
KG: Two. Jane.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Who’s around here somewhere.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And Ian who was a solicitor and then he set up his own business in the holiday world. Timeshare. Made a lot of money and he now plays a lot of golf.
HB: Right.
KG: Does odd jobs up in London for a company but hasn’t got to work.
HB: No.
KG: He come up here last Wednesday and he said, ‘Oh I’ve told you I’m going to America haven’t I?’ So I said, ‘No.’ I mean he’s like that. ‘I told you.’ ‘No.’ I said, ‘What are you going to America for? Because I can afford it,’ he said.
HB: Lovely.
KG: And for the last –
HB: Lovely.
KG: And for the last three years he’s been with his wife, who’s a West Indian girl, pleasant girl and they go, they fly to Florida, get on a ship, one of these bloody great ships.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And they do a seven days, ten days or whatever it is. I said, ‘Which islands are you going to?’ ‘I don’t know,’ he said, ‘They’re all the bloody same these islands.’ He said, ‘They’re all full of people trying to flog you things,’ you know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine. I can imagine. Keith can I just, can I just ask you, can I just something that’s comes to my mind while we’ve been, you know we’ve been chatting and what not I don’t think, I’m just going back over your log. I don’t think we actually know who your crew were. We know the pilot was Vasey.
KG: Oh yeah. I can tell you who the crew were. I’ve got a, I’ve got a lovely big photo, painting and you’ve, if you’d like to take those papers with you -
HB: Well we, what I’m, what I’m thinking we’ll do because there’s some in there, yes I can but what I just wanted to make some enquiries about some of the bits and pieces ‘cause I mean like you’ve got the usual things we all do. You’ve got some photographs but there’s nothing written on the back.
KG: Yeah.
HB: So we don’t quite know who’s who.
KG: Yeah.
HB: But having said that that’s that’s something we can address but no it was just, it was just the names of the crew.
KG: I’ll go through them for you if you’d like to jot them down.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Jack Vasey.
HB: That’s the pilot.
KG: V A S E Y.
HB: Ray Miller, flight engineer.
KG: So he’s the FE. Ray Miller.
HB: Oh dear. I’ll have to think a bit.
KG: That’s alright.
HB: George. George, God, George Hillier, mid-upper gunner.
KG: George Hillier.
HB: Vic Lewell L E W E L L.
KG: Hang on he was rear gunner. Sorry Vic Lewell.
HB: L E W E L L.
KG: Who haven’t, we haven’t got the –
HB: Navigator.
KG: I always remember he said, ‘It’s Edward to my better class friends.’
HB: Yeah.
KG: I’ll have to, I’ll have to look in there.
HB: That’s alright. That’s alright. That’s Edward.
KG: Crowley. I think he name was Crowley. Ted Crowley. C R O W L E Y.
HB: That’s brilliant. So that’s the pilot, the flight engineer, the navigator and can you remember who your wireless op was?
KG: George Hardy.
HB: George Hardy.
KG: From, from Houghton le Spring.
HB: Right. George Hardy, wireless op. That’s great. Yeah. It’s, it’s, did you after, after the war did you keep in contact with your crew.
KG: Well that’s something I’ve forgotten to tell you. We didn’t keep in touch with each other but about -, This is my daughter.
JT: Hello Harry, you must be Harry. Hi I’m Jane.
KG: Right. Just bear with me a second.
[machine pause]
HB: Right. Just turned the tape back on.
KG: About twenty five years after we had been demobbed I don’t know the exact date my wife had a phone call and the person said, ‘Is that Mrs Ganney?’ ‘Yes.’ Was your husband in 57 squadron?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘My name is George Hillier,’ the chap I was telling you about here, he said, ‘We’ve found out that the skipper, Jack Vasey is seriously ill,’ and George Hillier and Vic Lewell were going up to Newcastle or in that area to see him. Would we like to go as well? So we all trooped off to Newcastle or wherever it was and went in to see Jack Vasey and he was so thin. So he was in his dressing gown. It was one Sunday lunchtime and he was so thin and I was talking to him and I said to him, ‘What were you doing the night we hit the sea Jack?’ And he said, ‘I don’t know man but not many people have done it.’
HB: Yeah. That’s true.
KG: Yeah. And he died. He died a week later.
HB: Oh.
KG: With cancer.
HB: Yeah.
KG: But his family were so thrilled that we’d gone up there.
HB: Yeah.
KG: But other than that we haven’t been in touch with each other.
HB: So had you, had you, had you been in contact through perhaps associations reunions or -
KG: No. We hadn’t.
HB: You didn’t do much of that.
KG: No. We weren’t, we didn’t get involved in reunions at that time.
HB: Yeah.
KG: But then I joined the 57/630 Squadron Association because 57 squadron and 630 squadron shared East Kirkby.
HB: Yeah.
KG: They were both on the, on the aerodrome and we joined the Association. We did attend one or two dinners and reunions. We may manage to get to the next one which is something like the 3rd of July at East Kirkby.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Have you ever been there?
HB: I’ve been to Kirkby, East Kirkby, yeah.
KG: And have you seen the aircraft there haven’t you?
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
KG: Because it’s called Just Jane.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And so we may try and make it there depending on how I feel and how everybody else feels.
HB: Yeah.
KG: You know, just to go over there for the, for the day.
HB: Yeah.
KG: With my wife, as you see getting her up in the morning is difficult.
HB: Yeah.
KG: You know, she’ll be alright -
HB: What was, what was, I mean I’ve spoken to one or two people who were at east Kirby but what was your abiding memory of being at East Kirby cause there’s -
KG: East Kirkby.
HB: Sorry yeah.
KG: East Kirkby.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Abiding memory. Well let me just explain it. We joined the squadron and started flying August.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And we’d finished by February.
HB: Yeah.
KG: So we weren’t there for very, I wouldn’t be able to tell you the name of any member of East Kirkby at that time because people regrettably used to come and go. They would come in one day and two or three days later on a trip they’ve been shot down or whatever so you didn’t, you didn’t have any friends in other crews.
[ringtone]
HB: Sorry about this. I thought I’d turned it off. I have now. That’s it. Sorry I do apologise for that.
KG: That’s all right.
Jane: Nice bit of music though.
KG: You didn’t, you didn’t make friends outside of your own crew because you know, it was a bit without being over dramatic it was here today gone tomorrow.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
KG: So the, we were in nissen huts with a stove in the middle and a pipe going up through the roof but it wasn’t the most ideal place to stay.
HB: I’ve heard it, I’ve heard it described as cold and windy and draughty.
KG: That’s it. That’s it. Yeah.
HB: It seems to be a recurring theme.
KG: But as I say we weren’t there all that long.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Came in something like July. We’d be gone by February.
HB: Yeah. The, at the end of the war obviously a lot of people have got views on how Bomber Command were treated or viewed at the end of the war.
KG: Yeah.
HB: I just wondered if you’d got a view on that yourself.
KG: Yes. I have really. I can to a degree understand it in so far as fighter planes were there to shoot down the enemy planes and it was very flamboyant and they were quite rightly famous for what they, what they did whereas we were there to bomb them into submission effectively.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And I think at the end of the war Montgomery, Alexander, various other people in charge were all made lords and what’s the name was not offered a peerage.
HB: Harris.
KG: Butch. What’s his name? Butch Harris. So I think Bomber Command got treated very badly but of course they, as it was then we were at peace they didn’t want to upset the Germans any more.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And say, you know well we came and bombed all your places.
HB: Yeah.
KG: But I’m sure in my own mind that Bomber Command were, it was very significant of bombing Germany into submission.
HB: Yeah.
KG: I’m not saying the army wouldn’t, they would have to have done it eventually but no I think they got the thin edge of the wedge.
HB: Yeah.
KG: The only medals I got and I couldn’t care less about bloody medals, they’re surplus and stuck indoors. If I’d have stabbed myself with a pen in Whitehall I would have got the same medals.
HB: Yeah.
KG: As I got on Bomber Command.
HB: Yeah. What medals did you get Keith? Do you know?
KG: Oh. The usual Naafi lot. I think it was the victory medal you’d get.
HB: Yeah.
KG: They defence medal.
HB: Yeah.
KG: I honestly -
HB: Aircrew?
KG: No. No. We didn’t get aircrew medals. I mean I wouldn’t have minded an aircrew medal. If you’d flown before D-Day you would have got the air crew Europe.
HB: Yeah.
KG: After D-Day you all had the same medal which was, I don’t know, was it called the European star? I don’t know.
HB: Yeah.
KG: So all all they gave us eventually after kicking up a stink and of course the person who kicked up a lot of the stink was one of the Bee Gees.
HB: Oh right.
KG: Did you know that?
HB: No. No, I didn’t know that.
KG: You look it up. The Bee Gees. He’s died now. He was instrumental in putting the muck up. I’m not on tape am I? For putting the muck in the fan and stirring it all up.
HB: Yeah.
KG: And got that lovely memorial down at Piccadilly.
HB: Yeah. At Green Park. Yeah.
KG: Yeah. You’ve you seen it have you?
HB: Yes. I’ve been there.
KG: Yeah. It’s a good memorial.
HB: Yeah.
KG: So he was one of the main people getting involved with with that. But all we got was the soppy little clasp.
HB: Yeah.
KG: They call it the air crew clasp or something.
HB: Yeah.
KG: Well, I mean it’s like somebody’s put a little mark on your arm thing.
HB: Yeah.
KG: It’s a pretty pathetic sort of a gesture.
HB: Well I think, I think what we’ll do Keith is, I thank you for very much for that. It’s really, really interesting history of what you did. If we can I’ll turn the tape off. It’s a quarter to twelve now.
KG: Yeah.
HB: So you, I think, I think you’ve done marvellously to get, to get through all that. What we’ll do if you like I’ll turn the tape off. We’ll go through some of this paperwork and I’ll just make a few notes about some of the photographs.
KG: Yeah. If you go through -
HB: And then I’m just down the road so what I can I’ll I can do the copying so I’m going to terminate the interview at 11.45.
KG: Ok. We’re going into South Lodge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AGanneyK170301
PGanneyK1714
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Keith Ganney
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:05:18 audio recording
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-01
Description
An account of the resource
Keith was called up in February 1942 and after basic training learned to fly in the Tiger Moth and then sent to Davidson in Canada for further training in Cornells and Cranes. He failed a flying test and was remustered as a bomb aimer and sent back to England to 9 AFU at RAF Penrhos and then to RAF Silverstone to carry out crew training on Wellington and Stirling aircraft.
After attending the Lancaster finishing school at RAF Syerston, Keith and his crew were posted to RAF East Kirby. Their first operation was to Konigsberg, an eleven-hour trip but had to divert to Scotland because of bad weather. Several ‘bullseye’ feint operations were next before a raid on Bremen Docks was a failure due to navigator error.
Another operation was to Dusseldorf, carried out on a perfect moonlit night. An attack by a Me109, left the rear gunner severely wounded and the mid upper turret out of action. After fifteen minutes of corkscrew evasive action, the enemy fighter flew alongside, waggled his wings and flew off. Keith comforted the rear gunner until they made an emergency landing in England. Examination of the damaged aircraft revealed the emergency whistle of the mid upper gunner had deflected a bullet and saved his life. On an operation to Trondheim, the crew were unable to bomb so returned but had a lucky escape when they flew too low and hit the sea, tearing off the tail wheel and causing a crash landing for which the pilot received a red endorsement
Their last operation was to Siegen and in mid flight the navigator wanted to turn back so the pilot ordered Keith to map read the route from the nose of the aircraft and so he finished his first tour on 1st February 1945.
After time as a bombing instructor at RAF Swinderby, Keith was posted to Sudan as an air traffic controller from where he was demobbed.
He worked as a salesman until 1984, during which time he joined 57/630 Squadron association.
Keith feels angry at the treatment of Arthur Harris and considers the aircrew clasp as a pathetic gesture.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Newark (Nottinghamshire)
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Gwynedd
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Siegen
Norway--Trondheim
Russia (Federation)--Kaliningrad (Kaliningradskai︠a︡ oblastʹ)
Canada
Saskatchewan
Sudan
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1945-02-01
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Terry Holmes
17 OTU
57 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
crewing up
entertainment
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
love and romance
Me 109
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Penrhos
RAF Silverstone
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/268/3419/PHarrisB1604.1.jpg
4d93a86a74881c8fecbe08584fd4d043
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/268/3419/AHarrisB160626.1.mp3
b2fdeeb3d2a420c4b51393c6b2ae8f14
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harris, Bernard
Bernie Harris
B Harris
Barnard Harris
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Bernard 'Bernie' Harris (b 1925 - 2017, 1863168 Royal Air Force) an air gunner who served at the end of the war on 622 Squadron flying Lancaster on Operation Manna. In addition a photograph of four trainees.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bernie Harris and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-09
2016-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Harris, B
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
TO: Ok, good morning, good afternoon or good evening, whatever
BH: That’s a quick day, yeah [laughs]
TO: Whatever the case may be.
BH: Yeah.
TO: We’re recording, we’re filming this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. The gentleman I’m, that I’m interviewing is Mr. Bernie Harris. My name is Tomas Ozel and we are recording this interview on the 26th of June 2016. Could you please tell me what year you were born in?
BH: What?
TO: What year were you born?
BH: 1925.
TO: And were you interested in aircraft as a child? Were you interested in aircraft as a child?
BH: Oh yes, yeah. Yeah, my father was in Royal Flying Corps, he passed it on. But always interested in aircraft, anyway.
TO: Did you collect model planes?
BH: Yeah. Spitfires, Defiants, Lancasters, yeah. Defiant were made with Balsa wood. These days they are more sophisticated but it was made with Balsa wood and coverings. They even put a little turret on top of the Defiant as it was then fighter aircraft with a turret for night fighters.
TO: And did your father ever talk about his experience in the Flying Corps? Did your father ever tell you about his time in the Flying Corps?
BH: Not very often, no. He kept it, like most air crews today I think. He didn’t talk about it much. Nor do air crew today, it’s only in the recent years where there’s not many of us left now become more interested but it’s taken 60, 70 years to recognize Bomber Command in the RAF.
TO: And what was your first job?
BH: My first job was to be apprenticed to tool making and I lived in Forest Gate in East London and I was apprentice to an engineering company in Islington and I was apprenticed to become a tool maker. But after six months, on a drill, right, I thought I was been taken advantage of, so I left and went off somewhere else and took a couple jobs [unclear] and finally I volunteered at sixteen and a half. In a nearby recruiting place, which is still there, Romford in Essex and in between I had a job in a shop one thing and the other. My father was a tailor and he wanted to teach me and he said, right, you start right from the bottom and you sweep the floor, and I said, ‘no, I don’t’, and that was the end of that [laughs] ‘Til finally I got myself in a job in a shop, which wasn’t bad, it was a tailor’s shop, actually, and I said, I volunteered with sixteen and a half and eventually, father had to sign for me really, I can still remember, father sitting at a table with a form in front of him, my mother leaning over his shoulder saying you’re not going to sign that are you? And he said, ‘if he wants to go, he goes’ and he signed and that was that. And then from on I went to Carding, Cardington [unclear] a test station you probably know about, and if you passed that in three days you were good and you came out there and you were graded PNB, pilot, navigator or bomb aimer and just waited for the call. And it was just before my eighteenth birthday that I got the call and that was that. I was in.
TO: Do you remember what medical tests they gave you?
BH: A1.
TO: And do you remember the things that they tested?
BH: The what test?
TO: The thing that they tested like your eyesight
BH: Oh yeah, everything. If you came out of there Cardington you knew that you were sane and you knew you were a hundred percent fit. No problem. 20/20 vision, hearing, everything, you were, I mean aircrew were the fittest of the lot I think. Examinations of course not only medical, physical, eyesight, hearing, mathematics, it was a three-day course with, when it was completed you got the badge RAFVR and that was that.
TO: And in the 1930s did you hear about Hitler’s aggression in Europe?
BH: In the 1930s I was aware of fascism in this country, I was eleven and also the Spanish civil war, I remember the placards with planes, with swastikas on them dropping bombs and flames in their placards. I’m Jewish, my, and even then I thought, you know, things are not so good. I knew what was going on in Germany through the [unclear] and but not to the extent about concentration camps or anything like that but I was aware of Moseley and his mob, saw them marching, you know, one thing and the other and also the Brady Street march in which he was stopped, yeah, I was aware. And all the more reason to get in the fight.
TO: And what did you think of Chamberlain? What do you think of Chamberlain appeasing Hitler?
BH: What?
TO: What do you think of Chamberlain and his plan of appeasing Hitler?
BH: I don’t know really. But can you say that again?
TO: What do you think of Chamberlain when he signed the Munich Agreement with Hitler?
BH: Oh Chamberlain?
TO: Yeah.
BH: Well, I wasn’t politically motivated at that age but it, I mean, from listening to the parents and other people they thought, maybe he’s avoided a war, but as it turned out he didn’t, so. So, my opinion of him was neutral. Well, I wasn’t politically aware. As it turned out, he was wrong.
TO: And do you remember the preparations that were being made for the war?
BH: Ah yeah, very well because I was fourteen and I’d left school but I got, I had, I’ve two sisters and a brother, who are younger than me, and my mother for some reason said, ‘stop work, I’m getting you evacuated’. And we were all evacuated to Chelmsford and guess what? Right next to the Marconi radio factory right, prime spot, yeah, I remember the guys being, territorial was being called up, preparations for the black out, the first air raid siren and I remember that vividly, yeah, I suppose it was more of a thrill than anything else, [unclear] something different, right? Yeah, I remember that vividly, but it wasn’t long before I got the bus and came back home, used to be an eastern national bus, used to go from Bow to Chelmsford and from Chelmsford back to Bow, I lived in Forest Gate was on the route so that was that back home. Eventually my mother took my young, my younger brother, sister, and two sisters to Wells, she evacuated to them there. And I was left at home with my father.
TO: Were you surprised when the war started?
BH: No, not really. I did read, at that age I read newspapers and I wasn’t surprised, I don’t think I was even fearful in that sense. More of an adventure, I think.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing on the day the war started?
BH: September the 3rd, 1939. No, I don’t actually remember what I was doing then but I remember the first day of the Blitz, the day Blitz vividly because my brother and I, we went to the local cinema called the Coronation in Manor Park and they were showing Gone with the Wind. And during the course, that the raid started and all the lights went up, they said, ‘you all [unclear] to leave if you want but you can go back, if you want to stay, go back under the balcony which is safer’ so we decided to do that. When we came out there was rubble everywhere and in the distance was my father saying where you two so-and-so’s have been, we’ve been looking for you. And I remember that was the first day of the Blitz. But September the 3rd, I can’t really remember was it, I think was a nondescript day.
TO: Do you remember Chamberlain’s speech?
BH: Yeah, ‘cause there was no television in those days. There was television, but only for the few that could afford it. But as soon as war had broke out the television stopped, anyway, yeah, peace in our time. There is a little piece of this, and a little piece of that, and I’ll have the whole lot.
TO: And you remember the speech where Chamberlain announced that we’d declared war?
BH: Yeah, that was on the radio, there was sort of quietness everywhere, everything seemed to have gone quiet.
TO: Did you have any relatives who were in the armed forces?
BH: Yeah, I’d two cousins. Actually he was, the first into Paris with De Gaulle and another one, he was a Spitfire pilot and finished up ferrying aircraft. My brother went in as a boy, because he’s two years younger than me, he is dead now unfortunately and he was no higher than this and because I went in he went and volunteered as a boy and he also volunteered down at Romford, anyway he went off, my father realised what he’d done, chased after him, when he got to Romford he asked what, oh, your son has just gone to Romford Station and he’s off to Abedon, Aberothy something or it’ll come to me in a minute and the tale is that he got to Waterloo and he said, went up to a military policeman and said, ‘we are so sorry’, he said, ‘why have you joined his Majesty’s service?’ He said, ‘yes’, he said, ‘well, come with me so’. And that was that, so my brother was in the service as well but he wasn’t involved in the war, he was a boy entry and that was that.
TO: Did they allow boys then? Did they allow boys in in certain roles?
BH: Yes, he was trained in [Reemey ?] and what killed him off was that he was finished up after the war, going to the hospitals repairing x-ray sets, and they didn’t do him any good at all. They didn’t have the facilities to have the protection in those days as they have now, so that unfortunately killed him.
TO: And did you have an air raid shelter at your house?
BH: Yeah, Anderson, the Anderson in the garden. There was a nightly call.
TO: [unclear] camera back so.
BH: You’re alright?
TO: Yeah, just checking the shutter. Yeah, it’s fine. Sorry about that. And did you consider joining the army at all?
BH: I did the air force.
TO: What appealed to you about the air force over the other services?
BH: Well, you go to the air force, you can fly. And then again, in those days, it was the only force that get in touch with the enemy. Especially after Dunkirk.
TO: And how did you feel when you heard about the Dunkirk evacuation?
BH: Pardon what?
TO: The Dunkirk evacuation. How did you feel when it happened?
BH: I can’t really explain really. It’s, it’s a mixture of excitement, in one thing or the other, and getting away from the humdrum.
TO: And were you ever worried that Germany would win?
BH: Never doubted it. Never doubted it.
TO: Can you tell me a bit about what you remember from the phoney war?
BH: The phoney war? Well, the phoney war was [emphasis] phoney. Everything was quiet, everybody going on their normal business. The only difference was the blackout. But, no, everybody went about their normal business. The phoney war stopped of course with the episode of Dunkirk and then the day bombing and then into night bombing by the Nazis, but the phoney war was phoney. Everybody went about their normal business.
TO: And what kind of rations did you have when the war, what kind of rations did you have when the war started?
BH: I really don’t know in a sense because I wasn’t politicised in any sense, I knew we had to fight Germany and I wasn’t really fearful or anything like that at all. My parents were worried ‘cause they knew what could happen that’s why I suppose being a bit thick it didn’t worry me but I mean fourteen year old what do you know? Yeah, but I know the phoney war and it was phoney, as I say, until after Dunkirk.
TO: And there were people, were your parents worried that Hitler would invade? Were you worried that Hitler would invade?
BH: I wasn’t worried, wasn’t worried at all, but I knew if they did and I knew their reputation as far as Jewish people concerned, right, where could you go? Into the hills, Wales, Scotland or anywhere like that? ‘Cause there was nowhere else to go. So we were in it, and fight. That’s it.
TO: And do you remember what kind of food you had during the war?
BH: What kind of what?
TO: Food you had, what kind of food you had during the war?
BH: Food?
TO: Yes.
BH: Well, my mother was the innovative and it was mostly vegetable stuff and little bits of chicken, ration meat and things like that, but she probably went without herself, lots of vegetable soups, vegetables, home grown vegetables, she kept chickens for eggs and even when we had visitors she found something, you know, to make a meal with, so nothing elaborate, I mean, cakes, we had home-made cakes, chocolate was, couldn’t get hold of chocolate, things like that. Meat of course was rationed and the ration books, [unclear] but she made do, like most women and housewives in those days they made do. Comes the occasion, comes the person.
TO: And what did you think of Churchill?
BH: Brilliant, could do with him again. I wish he would be reincarnated. Man of the moment. Didn’t think much of him after the war, he’d become a real Tory after the war but then again after the war there’s a great movement for Labour. People have had enough, I mean, people were returning from the forces so right, we’re not lackeys anymore, might be on better things. So, his speech as far as communism is concerned killed him politically but as a war leader second to none.
TO: Did you listen to his speeches much?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
TO: What in particular did you like about him as a war leader? What, what, what in particular did you like about him as a war leader?
BH: He hated Germans.
TO: You already told me about the first day of the Blitz. Do you remember, are there any other days of the Blitz that stand out to you particularly?
BH: Yes, as I explained, the first day of the Blitz.
TO: Yeah, yeah.
BH: We were in the cinema, me and my brother. And when we came out, there was rubble all over the place, houses had been knocked down, something, so that was the first day of the Blitz.
TO: Do you remember other days of the Blitz?
BH: No, we just took it in our stride, went to work as normal. We used to get on the tram at seven o’clock in the morning to get to this so-called apprenticeship by eight o’clock. I was fourteen, I was working five and a half days a week, guess how much for?
TO: I don’t know.
BH: In out of thirty seven and a half p a week. I can remember my first wage packet bringing it home, and my mother pinned it on the curtain, it was [file missing] six pence for five and a half days work. No allowances for my age, so thirty seven and half p in today’s terms.
TO: How did the people behave during the Blitz would you say?
BH: All as one, helped one another, didn’t see any general fear whatsoever, I mean the patriotism was great. People helped one another. I remember when the night bombing started at five o’clock every day, people used to pack up stuff and we used to go to a communal bomb shelter, just across where we used to live and then eventually we want back to the Anderson but the first, pack up, be there by five o’clock, come out by six o’clock next morning amongst the rubble, hopefully your house was still intact.
TO: Did you ever see anyone behave badly during the Blitz?
BH: No, no, no, not at all.
TO: Was there a lot of bomb damage near where you lived?
BH: Yes, because the Forest Gate is not far from the docks and the first day of the Blitz was the whole dock area because the pool of London was the great entry into Great Britain, England and all the shipping used to go in there anyway. Most of the bombing in the surrounding areas but when they started bombing civilians that was another matter.
TO: And did you ever watch any of the dogfights that were going on, did ever you watch any of the dogfights that were going on?
BH: Yes we used to watch them coming over because we, actually we knew when raids were about because the balloons used to go off and they stationed all around us, there is a place called Wanstead Flats not far behind us where ack-ack guns were on and the, the balloons used to go up, to deter low flying, but the whole mixture of things really but I remember when, they brought in, like rocket fire, the ack-ack and everybody cheered because it used to be a one-off shell [mocks the sounds of gunfire] and then they brought in these, like rockets with massive, right, and everybody stood and cheered, at last we’re doing something, rather than the old pop-pop.
TO: Could you hear the anti-aircraft guns firing?
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah. In Forest Gate as I say about two miles behind us an area called Wanstead Flats which is part of the Green Belt and the ack-ack were on there.
TO: Did it, did it feel encouraging to know that the German bombers were being fired at?
BH: Oh, absolutely, yeah. But don’t forget the Luftwaffe was really indiscriminate, I mean, even today you know, people say about Dresden, but what about Coventry, Rotterdam, every city in the UK, Bristol, Plymouth, London, they didn’t care.
TO: And do you think France let Britain down in the war? Do you think France let Britain down?
BH: Well the trouble with France, they had the Maginot Line, didn’t they, and it was facing the wrong way, so that was a big mistake. Vichy France of course was fascist, so, as an ally, mediocre but not impressed with them.
TO: And so, when exactly, what year of the war did you join the RAF?
BH: 1943. I went in April 1943, just before my eighteenth birthday.
TO: And how did you come to be a rear gunner?
BH: Ah, as I said, I went in Cardington and came out as PNB graded, so, I, when I went, was called to ITW, Initial Training Wing, which was in Newquay and that’s a three month’s course which in peacetime is three years, so it’s condensed from three years, I did there for three months and from there I was sent to Elementary Flying Training School in Derby, which [unclear] factories on it now in a place called Burnaston. Unfortunately I had a Tiger Moth I was as others on Tiger Moths for a while and the weather was so bad I couldn’t get my flying hours in so to go solo but they didn’t determine the fact that so from there we were sent to Heaton Park. Now Heaton Park was a holding centre for aircrew to go to the Empire, you’ve heard about this, to the Empire Training Scheme and ‘cause it was near the Manchester ship canal as well. So we were stuck there for a while and we waited and waited and three of us went to the CO and said, ‘you know, what’s the problem?’ In a nice way. We said ‘there’s a hold up and we don’t know when you’ll be going’ so we said ‘what’s the quickest way getting to the war?’ He said, ‘go as gunners’, so we did. Others went, sent, who decided to remuster in the navy and that’s how I’ve become a gunner. So you become a rear gunner is because when you go to OTU, Operational Training Wing, which was Hixon, a place called Hixon in Staffordshire, which is on Wellingtons, then you crew up together and then you all meet up, either Australian pilots, Pete and we all met up and the other guy, there was the other gunner, he said, ‘I don’t want to be a rear gunner’, so I said ‘Okay, I’ll do it, it’s fine’, that was it.
TO: And could you have been a pilot? Could you have become a pilot?
BH: I could’ve, well if I’d stayed on, I’d have become a pilot, I’ve gone overseas but I’d have missed the war. As another guy did say, I met him later on, but he got his wings but he missed the war. That wasn’t the purpose, the purpose was to go and kill Germans.
TO: And so what was the first bomber that you flew in on as a rear gunner?
BH: Well there again, we were, as a crew, we go to, from Wellingtons, we’re six of us, go to a heavy conversion unit onto Lancasters, which is a place called Woolfox Lodge between Stamford and Grantham and you pick up a flight engineer. And the flight engineer, he’d got his wings but they didn’t want him as a pilot so they made them flight engineers. And then we, with various things of getting to know your Lancaster and one thing and the other, we didn’t get to the squadron till late which was in Mildenhall and then we was, we were sent on to various things, they put us on some secretive work and even in OTU the other guys would tell you we used to go out on Window dropping, a diversion raids, save the main forces going that way, we would go that way to get the Luftwaffe up in the air of the pundits, drop the Window, metal strips, as if the big force come, then come back and the other force would go through. So [unclear] they put us on secret [unclear] and testing one thing and the other, finally got onto Operation Manna. So that was my only operational, real operational side. Which was disappointing in a way. But we had to obey orders, didn’t we?
TO: And did you ever wish that you were anything other than a gunner?
BH: Well, as I say, I went as a gunner because I wanted to get in the war but my aim was become a pilot or navigator or bomb aimer, the PNB, that was my aim. But as circumstances would show, as I said, I missed the war, probably gone to Australia, to Canada, Texas or South Africa. But as it happens, when the war ended, we were earmarked to go to California as a crew to convert onto Liberators for the Far East but the [unclear] said, no we want the boys to go home. So the whole crew was split up and that was in August 1945.
TO: And what did your relatives think of you being in the Air Force?
BH: Oh, quite proud in a way. My mother was concerned ‘cause I remember going home with all my kit ‘cause we’d be going from one station to another and she spotted my helmet, oxygen mask to the top so she had a little cry but they were concerned, rightly so, I suppose really.
TO: And how did you feel when you first heard that the RAF had started bombing Germany?
BH: Elated. Couldn’t get in there quick enough to help them do it.
TO: How long did your training last in total?
BH: Our training, well the training started right from 1943 right through to ‘45. I think I joined the 62 Squadron in March ’45 as I said, they sent us on various things and one thing and the other.
TO: And were you on board Lancaster bombers?
BH: Yes.
TO: What were the conditions like on board the Lancaster?
BH: Better than the Wellington, actually I flew Tiger Moths, Harfords, Wellingtons, Lancaster and of course, yeah, the Tiger Moth, which is the nicest plane I’ve ever been in, or ever flew in. There there was if you were coming down the landing, the instructor used to say, watch the grass is grass then cut back [unclear] head over the side watching, but that was flying, that’s different, that only got you into next grade but it wasn’t pleasant especially when you were flying at height when icicles were forming on your oxygen mask, you had to break them off, we had the heating closing as well.
TO: Was it colder in the gun positions than in the main cockpit?
BH: Very tight, conditions were very, in the turret, the rear turret, cramped, very cramped, but then, you know, you’re in it, you’re in it, and that was it.
TO: Did you feel glad when you started going on missions over Germany?
BH: I didn’t really go on missions over Germany. They got us on all the experimental and secret stuff and then finally got onto Operation Manna, which we dropped food, have you heard of it? Obviously, so no need to go into that.
TO: Well, No, actually, if you can explain it but.
BH: We dropped, it’s three hundred feet, the old German airfield Epinburgh and after that we formed the Manna Association. Which I eventually finished up as secretary and treasurer. Now of about forty, forty five of us, is six left now.
TO: And, did you ever, did you have to fire the guns in training?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. And tested the guns coming over to Holland over the North Sea, test them just in case but yeah, we had to fire drogues. In fact when I was, when the war was over I was sent to Italy and I joined the Centododici Squadron, this is 112, Sharks Squadron, they had sharks under the cowling and I used to fly with the air craft towing a drogue so they could fire at it, hoping that they would fire at the drogue and not at me, so, so that was alright but a bit of fun, but can I tell you an interesting story though? In 1945 the squadron was broken down, broken up and everybody went their different ways and were all made redundant and that was in ’45. So 36 years later this guy turned out to be a great friend with it, is Ted Livingstone and another guy, Phil Irvin, decided to put an advert in all, like the fly, all the journals for aircrew who would be interested in going to see the dropping sites in Holland? It cost a hundred pounds and get the coach from Graves End. So I said to my wife at the time, would you like to do it? Yeah. So, put my name down for it. Now I had my own business in those days and I’d been to an exhibition and I got home rather late, my wife said to me, you had a phone call, I think it’s the guy that’s organizing the trip to Holland. So I said, yeah, what’s his name? She said, Hallem. I said, Arthur Hallem? My own navigator. Anyway left his phone call and of course got on to him, chatted and he was going, right, with his wife. And we chatted, and during the course of the conversation, I said, he was articled clerk, I said, did you carry on with your accountancy? He did, yes, I am now the director of Wickbrits pension fund and I said, in Chiswell Street? And when I said in Chiswell Street, my wife said, Arthur Hallem? I’ve been dealing with him for years in the Abbey National round the corner in City Road what do you think of that?
TO: When you fired the guns, did it leave a smell of cordite in the air?
BH: Pardon?
TO: When you fired the guns, did it leave a smell of cordite in the air?
BH: Yeah. ‘Cause your shells used to drop off the side, you spew out anyway. But also in the training for gunnery you had to put a gun together blindfolded. I don’t know if any of the guys have told you that, yeah, during the training, you had to be blindfolded and then put the guns together, in case you had a stoppage or something like that while you’re out flying so it’s dark, it’s black, can’t put a light on, so you had to do in the darkness, take the bridgehead out, clear it, put it back in.
TO: Do you think it was hard to learn that?
BH: To be honest no and I’m not being snobbish in any way when a few of us came from our previous training, the guys up in Morpeth it was, the instructors had a bet that we [unclear] we would beat everybody and we did. Not because it’s snobbish or anything but we knew our way around so as I said [unclear] I’m not degrading the other guys in any way whatsoever but anyway they had a bet and they won.
TO: And what was your, I think I’ve already asked you this but what was your, was the Tiger Moth your favourite aircraft to fly in? What was your favourite aircraft to fly in?
BH: Tiger Moth, oh yeah.
TO: And were there any planes you flew in that were, that weren’t very reliable?
BH: There was what?
TO: Were all the planes that you flew in reliable?
BH: Yeah, expect the Wellington. ‘Cause Wellington was, the OTU operational training unit and we used to have in it Gee for navigation and I used to pop out and help the navigator, Arthur used to, I used to do the Gee and everything else, and we lost the Gee, and we got lost and we were in cloud and the aircraft started to vibrate violently so we had a discussion whether we should pop out or not, ‘cause we didn’t know where we were, anyway decided to leave and when we got back to base we went to the hangar, the chief engineer said, said to us, you had one minute before the port engine blew up. So we were rather lucky. So the whole aircraft was vibrating.
TO: So, did you have to bale out then?
BH: No, we did considered it but we didn’t know where we were, so we are sticking out, so eventually the weather cleared and we got down and it was a place called Gamston,’cause we’ve been moved there from Hixon and the chief engineer when we went to the hangar the next morning to see what’s the problem he said you had one minute before that engine blew up, in his opinion. So we considered it a lucky escape.
TO: Did Wellington engines have a reputation for doing that?
BH: Yeah, they were Bristol radials but as a [file missing] Merlin [unclear] different proposition altogether but of all end like anybody else the Lancaster was the favourite aircraft.
TO: Were the guns different on as Lancaster to another aircraft?
BH: No, 303s, the mid upper had two guns, is it alright?
TO: Yes
BH: The mid upper had two guns, as you know, the rear turret had four, later in they brought in 2.5s because the 303 only had a range. And the Luftwaffe knew it, if they stood off, right, the 303 were going then would start dropping, didn’t have the range until they bought the .5 which the Americans had, which was a different thing altogether and that’s why they introduced corkscrew, have you heard about the corkscrew? Yeah, that was violent.
TO: Did you have to practice the corkscrew?
BH: Yeah. That’s one of the things that we had to do on 622, they brought us in a new sight, gun sight, and it was like a square like that oblong, and there would be crystals and you had to recognize the aircraft like Messerschmitt and you set that in and if you got the aircraft in those crystals you couldn’t miss so we had to do an exercise with a mark 8 Spitfire and he did his attack and I got a hundred percent hits by then. My mid upper he didn’t want to do it so I did his and he got ninety-nine percent and the whole thing went to Air Ministry but we also did a corkscrew now a corkscrew, I don’t know if they told, how we get into it and why, I mean you just, an attacking aircraft who lay off you and he put your speed in and if he is on the starboard side which is [pause] to the right of the aircraft, right, so we called our pilot Pete, the corkscrew starboard so he’s got his wheel like that ready and as the aircraft comes in, he’s got to come in like that, and he’s got to come under the back he said, corkscrew go and he goes [mimics the noise of incoming aircraft] down like that and up again and then down again and his stomach comes up here, goes down there, good fun really.
TO: Was anyone aboard the plane actually sick, by those manoeuvres?
BH: No. Fortunately.
TO: And do you think the guns of a Lancaster would have been enough to take down a fighter?
BH: Oh yeah, if they got in range, as I say, the 303, as the other guys will tell you, the only, limited in range, they would drop down and the Luftwaffe knew that.
TO: And were people more afraid of night fighters than anti-aircraft fire?
BH: Mh?
TO: Were people more afraid of night fighters than anti-aircraft fire?
BH: I don’t think so but towards the end of the war they did have intruders. I don’t know if you were told about that. The Focke Wulf 190 used to follow aircraft back and as soon as you got in landing position, what they called funnel, there you’re lined up, your undercarriage is down, your flaps are down and you are more air worthy, you’re more or less, your air speed is down and it happened to where I was in Woolfox Lodge one of guys got shot down because they used to come in, follow the aircraft and while you’re in that position they were vulnerable and shoot them down. In fact to this day they haven’t found the air gunner, the rear gunner, so we used to get the signal to be sent out over the North Sea, Irish Sea, all clear but then that was towards the end of the war and it claimed quite a few victims, so.
TO: As a, sorry, as a rear gunner, were you in the most vulnerable position? As a gunner, were you in the most vulnerable position?
BH: Yes. Because I explain the line of attack would be, they would lay off, turn in and come round like that and then
TO: Come.
BH: Come to the rear so the rear gunner was really the first form of defence and the first to receive attack. As soon as they introduced these Dorniers with guns they called firing from underneath, I don’t know if you were told about that, right, they had these Dorniers and they were equipped with a gun who used to get under the aircraft and fire upwards, couldn’t see them until you exploded.
TO: And what kind of bombs would a Lancaster carry?
BH: Oh, the big ones. Yeah, sit [?] incendiaries, thousand pounders. And also the big one. It takes up the whole of the bomb bay.
TO: And what did you think of RAF leaders, like Arthur Harris?
BH: If anybody started on me outside, I’ll tell my uncle of you. But he’s brilliant and he liked his aircrew. He went to South Africa because he was contemptuous of the government for not demobbing the aircrew, made us all redundant. And that’s a story in itself, stupid. As I say, when the squadron broke up, we made redundant, send up to a place called Burn, up in Yorkshire, an old ex airfield here and are you ok for time?
TO: I’m fine. I’m just checking there be, yeah, I’m just checking the [unclear].
BH: And I get there, masses of ex aircrew walking about doing nothing and what it was it went there before a panel and you had three choices of a trade: radar wireless, wireless mechanic, driver or radar operator. So, and you got all ex aircrew sitting back, what do you want to do Bernie? Sort of thing. I said, ‘well, I’ll go as a radar wireless mechanic’, ‘nah, you don’t want to go, it’s a year’s course, you will be out by then’, so then, ‘I’ll learn to drive’, ‘No, no one is gonna teach you to drive, you’ll be able to, you go as a radar operator’, so ok fine. In the meantime I was sent to a place as a clerk. So they got that all wrong until I said ‘I’m not a clerk, I’m going as a radar operator’. So finally they realised because when I reported to St John’s Wood, when I first went in, there’s another guy named Harris and he starts three numbers 168 same as mine, but his other numbers were different, so they got him mixed up with me ‘cause they didn’t look any further until they realised their mistake. So that was that, so eventually after much arguments I was, ok go down to in Wiltshire and you will become trained as an operator. So about twelve or sixteen ex aircrew we’re trained as radar operators, yeah, for six months. When we finished the course, the signal came from the Air Ministry, all the ex air crew that had taken the radar operators are now redundant, report back to Burn. So we got back to Burn, said ‘what happened?’ I said, ‘I want to learn to drive’, ‘ok we’ll teach you to drive’. So that was that.
TO: And what did you think of other RAF leaders? What did you think of RAF’s general leaders?
BH: In general, loved it. You see, the pysco is this, with aircrew, all volunteers, no one conscripted, they all had the same state of mind, they all wanted to fly and kill Germans. So we had all that in common and air crew is like a big family even today. Even with so few of us left. Silly contact, so, although it was a war it was a great experience, [unclear] my teams.
TO: Were there any ever occasions where weather at your airfields damaged the aircraft?
BH: No. The only laughable thing is that the weather, one briefing we had at OTU we head to normal briefings what you gonna do and end of which is the met man, I can see him now, tall man, long neck, big Adam’s apple, when he’s going all through the [unclear] and he says, ‘you got five tenths cloud’ and all that, but we said ‘it’s raining outside’ , he said ‘not according to my map it’s not’, and it was, it was bucketing down, not according to my map, he said, and that’s true.
TO: And what kind of information would you be given at the briefings?
BH: On a normal target, what you got to do, courses, the courses, navigation, radio codes, gunnery, the whole lot and then finish up with the met report.
TO: What kind of gunnery would you be, what kind of gunnery would they cover at the briefing?
BH: What kinds of what?
TO: What aspects of gunnery would they cover at the briefings?
BH: Just to make sure that your guns are ok, your belts are ok, the gun belts ‘cause they run on the side and your gun is fully charged and everything else. And also the height you’ll be flying at, in most cases more than about ten to fifteen thousand feet, then up to twenty thousand.
TO: Did you bring any rations with you aboard the bomber?
BH: Yeah. There was chocolate of course, gum, I think the gum, I’m not sure, certainly chocolate, apple, I think, what they called the flying breakfast you had to have a pint of milk, there’s an urn of milk on the side, and you had your flying breakfast going and coming back whatever you did. Yeah, there was a chocolate, I don’t remember any of the others ‘cause I don’t think I used it. I did use the chocolate once, it was like a block of ice, it was frozen, nearly knocked my teeth out. So I used to have it, everybody had a flying ration.
TO: And what kind of rations did you have at the air bases?
BH: Very good, very good, at Heaton Park, where we were waiting to go abroad, they had a most brilliant chef there and he made trifles every Sunday, now if I was out on the site I would make sure I go back, he was brilliant, but the food was good.
TO: Did you have more in the air forces food than as a civilian?
BH: Then what?
TO: Than as a civilian?
BH: Yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah.
TO: And do you remember, sorry I’m going back slightly but, do you remember how you felt when the RAF won the Battle of Britain?
BH: Yeah, elated. Absolutely, that was a turning point of the war. But that’s set off the Blitz, then he resorted to air bombardments by the Luftwaffe and when he was beaten in that, in the Battle of Britain, he resorted to night flying, bombing.
TO: And do you remember hearing about the attack on the Ruhr Dams?
BH: Yeah, 617 Squadron. Yeah, that was May 16th, 17th, and May the 17th was my 20th birthday. So, I remember it well.
TO: Was it widely reported in the press?
BH: Mh?
TO: Was the attack on the dams widely reported in the press?
BH: Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. See, don’t forget, the Battle of Britain was the only real victory that we had, I mean, the desert warfare was going backwards and forwards with Rommel, so that was the only real victory and the bombing of Germany was applauded because we’d had enough, we, it was a turning point, it was, it was as if the Germans were invincible, that was a feeling, but when we had these victories, they weren’t invincible, they realized we could do something about it.
TO: Did they report much about the campaign in North Africa in the papers?
BH: Well, the campaign in North Africa, was, until Montgomery came on the scene was backwards and forwards, Rommel came, forced the British back, [unclear] finished up outside Cairo, at El Alamein and he stood his ground there and he beat Rommel but a lot of people don’t know if you get into modern history of the Middle East, that Sadat who was president, became president of Egypt, plotted with the Arabs to attack Montgomery from the rear to help the Germans and he was arrested by the British, yeah. I won’t go into modern history about the Arabs or anything else, but yeah, he plotted as the others, the Mahdi of Jerusalem went to Berlin so Montgomery had a lot against him but he fought through and he’s held at El Alamein and that was a good victory there. And that was another turning point of the war but you couldn’t rely on the Arabs nor could you today, I have to say, but anyway, scrub that. But yes, so, Battle of Britain and El Alamein, the bombing of Germany. Dresden, right, you take Dresden, Canon Collins who was anti, against the atom bomb and everything else CND he used to go around preaching to aircrew not to bomb Germany and he was allowed to do it for some reason. However, that’s another story, but if you take Dresden with Stalin who was advancing, Dresden was no longer an open city, before that they were making gun sites as well, had a big industry in gun, opticians and, Stalin said to Truman at that time and Churchill that Dresden, the troops, German troops are massing in Dresden and I want them seen to, I want them cleared, so both the Americans, us, the RAF, bombed Dresden. Dresden was unfortunate but there was twenty five thousand casualties, Goebbels put another nought on the ending, it made two hundred and fifty thousand but Dresden was needed because Stalin wanted it, it was in the way of his troops to get into East Germany so no matter what anybody said about Dresden, I will always say Dresden was needed unfortunate. You tell me about Coventry, you tell me about Rotterdam, you tell me about Bristol, Southampton, Bristol, you tell me about those cities, don’t tell me, don’t talk to me about Dresden.
TO: And then, what did you think of the German aircraft of the war?
BH: Never flew one [laughs]. Well, they served their purpose, the Heinkel was the most hated, the 101, no 111, no 101, because they used to desynchronize their engines, whether they did that to avoid radar or not but you could always tell them, the Heinkel 11, they desynchronized [mimics the sound of engines] so that was a horrible sound. The 109s they were ok, the Focke-Wulf was alright and then they brought in the jet towards the end of the war, the Messerschmitt jet, yeah, fighter aircraft, [unclear] aircraft.
TO: And were you quite friendly with the ground crew?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah, especially the WAAFs. Yes, yeah, always had contact with the ground crew, and they’d always be at the end of the runway when you’re taking off.
TO: Did they see you, were they cheering at you?
BH: Yeah. [unclear] together two fingers back.
TO: And do you remember hearing about the first thousand bomber raid on Cologne?
BH: No, I wasn’t involved in it.
TO: But did they report it?
BH: Yeah, they’re good [?]. Actually they brought in aircraft from OTUs, Wellingtons as well, from OTUs and heavy conversion units, they brought everybody in, it was unlucky not to be called. Took tinsel instead. Window.
TO: And when was Window first developed?
BH: I think by Barnes Wallis, he designed the Wellington, I think it was one of his ideas. He just put it down the chute, the flare chute, just bundled it down. And of course, the Germans on their radar, swamped their radar.
TO: And you mentioned sometimes you went on these, was it secret operations or special operations? You said you went on operations to deploy Window as a decoy?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Would you deploy it around the North Sea?
BH: Yeah, I was [file missing] over the North Sea, yeah. The idea was if the main bomber, the main route was through Holland, from the East Coast to Holland. So, if a main group was going, say, across The Hague, we would go with the Window south of that because the German fighter group were patrolling round [unclear] so if they were sent off that way to find us with the Window, they used up their fuel so they had to come back to refuel and in the meantime the main forces got through. Coming back was a different story of course but the main force had got through.
TO: What do you think of the American aircraft of the war?
BH: Was a big aircraft with a little bomb bay. Didn’t have much to do with them really. I mean Mildenhall 3 Group where I was in, I was surrounded by the Americans, Norfolk and all around that. And the only thing against them was that, when they took off, they wouldn’t go over the coast until they got to their operational height and then they went, so if we had a [unclear] right, we got this humming guide on all the time and once they got their operational height, then their fighter escort would go off, and then off they would go, so we called them as a bloody nuisance. But they are good guys, I mean, they took a hammering, they really did. Their graves, memorial in Cambridge, massive, the graveyards there, massive memorial. Took a hell of a pounding.
TO: Did you, were you ever escorted by American fighters?
BH: No. No.
TO: Or Spitfires at all?
BH: No. The only time had contact with a Spitfire was that one they tested the side.
TO: Did you ever, did airfields ever run low on supplies like fuel or bombs?
BH: The airfields yeah, bomb dumps and fuel dumps, yeah. Yeah, self-contained, yeah.
TO: And did they ever run low on supplies?
BH: No, well planned. It was mostly worked by the Royal Army Service Corps. It was the same Royal Army Service Corps bloated our aircraft with food for Holland. Stacking up the bomb bay.
TO: Can you tell me how Operation Manna worked?
BH: Worked? I’ll tell you how it came about and worked. Yeah.
BH: Operation Market Garden, Arnhem was unfortunately a disaster. The idea was to shorten the war and go through [unclear] backed by the Germans. The Reichsmaster, it was a Hungarian, Austrian Nazi commander in Holland by the name of Arthur Seyss-Inquart was so incensed that he stopped all food coming into Western Holland from the agriculture part of Holland itself. Queen Juliana and Prince Bernhard were here in England, in the UK, in exile and in January 1944 she called the railway workers to go on strike in Holland. Well this Nazi Reichmaster in retaliation ordered the sea locks to be broken, flooding Western Holland from Utrecht right round to The Hague. So, the dykes were broken and it was flooded. There was a population of three million nine hundred thousand in that area and this is a fact ‘cause I gave a talk on it to 622 Squadron which was reformed in Brize Norton in May, anyway. So out of three million nine hundred thousand, eventually twenty thousand died of starvation and malnutrition was rife, people were starving, so Queen Juliana appealed to Churchill and Truman and Eisenhower. Eisenhower said, they will have to wait, he is not committing his troops, while there are six hundred thousand Germans in Western Holland. Anyway, so Queen Juliana said, finally Eisenhower said, [unclear] find a way of delivering food. And he brought in Air Commodore Andrew Geddes, who was on tactical air force in main headquarters of the Allies, so cut a long story forward, he was met Bedell Smit and Bedell Smith to him, we have a situation, we got people starving and they have to be supplied by food by air. You devise a plan and you come and tell back and tell me what you gonna do. So, apparently, Andrew Geddes went away with others to tactical air force and he devised a plan for dropping food in certain areas in Western Holland by air incorporating the squadrons of Lancasters and also Pathfinders and he got hold of this Nazi [unclear] and in a school called, they met in a school called [unclear] and they explained the plan. The Germans didn’t like it, he said, not the case of you liking it, it’s what we’re gonna do. And if you interfere in any way in what we gonna do, you’ll be arrested as a war criminal. So, on April 29th, the 28th it started but the weather was too bad, so on the 29th of April Operation Manna started without the agreement being signed until the next day. And quite legally they could’ve been shot down and we’re going three hundred feet, hundred meters, something like that, we did a designated area, if anybody went outside that area they’d be warned by red flares and shot at and shot down. Anyway, so, it went off without incident and that was the start of Manna and it went from April the 29th to May the 8th. The Americans came in, they called it Chowhound, the next day and they finished on May the 7th. So in a total there was twelve thousand tons of food dropped overall, the RAF dropped seven thousand and the Yanks dropped four thousand. And to this day in Holland it’s taught, as history, by survivors and when we’ve been back there before we’ve been invited back, as I say, in 1981, we went in 1982 on that first trip, we were overwhelmed, we didn’t realise, people used to come up to us and still do when we go there, thank you for saving my life, thank you for saving my parents life, children are growing, it’s very touching. And that’s how it came about.
TO: And what do you remember the most when you were participating in Operation Manna?
BH: But we went in, I think about two or three thousand feet and dropped to three hundred when we got over to Holland. My first, I’m the last to see anything ‘cause I’m at the back, there’s this boy on his bicycle, on top of the dyke, flooded all around, astride his bicycle, waving a Union Jack and a Dutch tricolour, right and we were flying in just below the roof of a hospital, they were all waving sheets and God knows what else. And we went between The Hague and Rotterdam to drop at Eppinburgh and straight out again. But we could see people waving, they were warned to keep away, one guy whose pony rushed onto the dropping field, got hit by a sack of potatoes and that killed him. But other thing and the Germans were told that if they touched the food in any way they will be arrested as war criminals but this Nazi, he was eventually tried and hanged as a war criminal because not only was he involved in Holland, he followed the German army through the occupied areas organising transportations and everything else, he was a real, real Nazi and he was strung up.
TO: Is there anything else you remember in particular about Operation Manna, which sticks out to you?
BH: There is a guy named Hans Onderwater also a [unclear] historian, he wrote a book called Manna Chowhound, still very friends with him, right, and he organised a hell of a lot, what we, with the Manna Association, what we used to do, together with Americans, they used to come over here, we meet up in Lincoln, right, on the weekend, and we had four coachloads to go to various, entertained by various airfields the RAF Coningsby, Scampton, Waddington, places like that, and they used to, the fifth year we’d go to Holland, and boy! We didn’t know where were going and we were hosted all over the country, memorials, dining, visiting, schools, lectures, concerts, incredible, absolutely incredible.
TO: And the food supplies that you had on board the plane, were they, did they have parachutes attached to them?
BH: No, just dropped out the bomb bay. Just open the bomb bay, they’d fall down. The Pathfinders went in first who did the markers because they were told, the Dutch were told, the aircraft would be coming in and dropping red markers and then after that on their radios ‘cause they were all hidden, radios were all hidden, [unclear] anyway, the aircraft are leaving England bringing you food and of course all out on the streets waiting for the aircraft.
TO: Was there anyone that you know of who actually got fired at during Operation Manna?
BH: Yeah, one guy got a bullet through his foot because some irate Germans, we followed the guns, the anti tank guns, they were following us, could see that clearly and I tracked them as well, but of course we were vulnerable at that height, there were a few rifle shots, one guy got a bullet through his foot, and you could see that, that sort of things that were given there [emphasis: sound of papers rustling] [unclear] in there, a card from Prince Bernhard, he was our, he was our president, and that’s a card from from Bernhard when Queen Wilhelmina died I sent a card, a condolence card, got load of medals in there, as the other guys from Manna. Now, there is only six of us left and the guy, Bob Goodman, he was the leader of Chowhound, he died this March. So, like all good things come to an end, don’t they.
TO: When Operation Manna began, and you had the briefings,
BH: Yeah.
TO: Were you or anyone else surprised when you heard you would be dropping food?
BH: Not surprised, more of an adventure I think. I mean, it was humanitarian. No, it was a surprise, something we wanted to do and like all operations, when you go for briefing, the whole airfield is closed down, the gates are closed, RAF police on the doors, it’s a lockdown. You only go and get your gear and get your breakfast and go.
TO: Did it feel strange to have, to be carrying food rather than weaponry?
BH: Well we knew that, why we were doing it, I mean, three million nine hundred thousand people, I mean we got photographs of kids [unclear] walking about with large spoons, so when they went by these areas where the, kitchens, common kitchens, they’d scrape out the bottom of the urn, we got photographs of kids dying in the streets.
TO: Do you think Operation Manna could have been launched sooner than it was?
BH: I think it was in a timescale it should have done. Because they did know the seriousness after the what happened to, after Arnhem and this Nazi what he would do. He was rightly strung up as well anyway.
TO: And did you hear, was there much reporting on what was happening on the Russian front?
BH: Yeah, oh yeah. Well the Russians, you know, they took quite a beating until they got to Stalingrad, they could have gone, if they had gone past Stalingrad it would have been another story, but the winter of all things killed them, hope, unfortunately and the Russians, I mean, their hatred of the Germans, you couldn’t describe it, so, yeah, right, that’s why there was a great Communist movement in this country as well, because Communism as against, never mind what Stalin did with Holland he made the deal in ’39 didn’t he? With him, but regardless of all that, the British public could see the only real enemy and allies, as far as we were concerned, allies were the Russians. If it wasn’t for the Russians, the Germans would have been here. There’s no doubt about it.
TO: And when did you or when did the news of the Holocaust reach Britain?
BH: What?
TO: News of the Holocaust reach Britain?
BH: Well apparently, well being Jewish I know [unclear], we knew there was concentration camps and what the Germans did before the war with Jews and everything, with the refugees and everything coming over and telling their stories of what was happening. But apparently the leaders of the Jews in Germany were begging for the Allies to bomb the [unclear], but we were, with Enigma, Churchill’s excuse was we know but we, we don’t want the Germans to know that we have Enigma, that we’ve been broken their code, that was his excuse. There was one flaw, they were begging to be bombed because what was happening. But he didn’t want the Germans to know that we knew all about Enigma. So his excuse was no, if we know about concentration camps we would know their secrets. But they took no notice of what was coming out through the Jewish movement, with the concentration camps. Only it wasn’t only Jews, yeah, there’s the only fly in the ointment.
TO: And when did you personally first hear of the Holocaust?
BH: Not until the war ended actually.
TO: And what was your rank when you were in the air force?
BH: Flight sergeant.
TO: Flight sergeant.
BH: I was just coming up to warrant officer.
TO: And were you actually ever on bombing missions or was Operation Manna your first proper
BH: Operation Manna was only one, yeah. As I say, we were involved in experimental stuff.
TO: Did you ever experiment with stuff that turned out not to work? Did you ever experiment with equipment that didn’t work?
BH: No, no, the only thing we were doing was with that gunsight and also we were experimenting with things, high level bombing as well. I’ve got in my log book high-level bombing, which certain things had to be done and navigational things but as a person who wanted to get in the war I still regret not having a good run at the Germans by getting in to bombing raids. But then the powers above gave the orders. Couldn’t go off on our own. Have you ever met a guy named Harry Irons?
TO: Harry [unclear]?
BH: Irons? Harry Irons?
TO: Irons, I think I’ve heard of him but I have not met him.
BH: Oh, he’s local, he lives not far [unclear], he’d done two tours as a rear gunner. I was with him on June the 4th.
TO: Yeah. Of this year?.
BH: Yeah.
TO: Does he live that far from here or?
BH: Mh?
TO: Does he live near here?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Maybe you can put me in touch with him later perhaps.
BH: You want, well, do you want to see him?
TO: Well, maybe, if he wants to talk.
BH: He wants to, yeah, I only, I haven’t got his phone number. I got his phone number but it’s all wrong.
TO: Oh, ok.
BH: I’ve got his address.
TO: Maybe I could send him a letter or something.
BH: Do you want the address?
TO: Well, we can sort that later. It’s fine.
BH; Yeah?
TO: We can sort it later. It’s fine.
BH: Ok.
TO: So, where would you keep the parachutes on board the plane?
BH: Just inside the fuselage, behind the turret. You had to open the turret doors, get the parachute, click it on, turn the parachute, the turret to the side, open the doors and fall out. But you had to get to your parachute first, because it was in the fuselage. And if you couldn’t open the doors, hard luck.
TO: Did they have a steep hatch [file missing]?
BH: Yeah, further up. Yeah.
TO: And were there any occasions where you were flying over Europe and you got lost?
BH: Only in the one I told you about. We were actually fired at over the, over Jersey, we were doing a trip over there, a sortie over there, Northern France, experimental and we were actually fired at and I see this [unclear] coming up, but it missed, as you can see.
TO: Was the fire anywhere near the plane or?
BH: Not, it was why they missed, they went away. Just watched it coming up, this flame.
TO: Did you, were your missions mainly during the night?
BH: Mh?
TO: Were your missions mainly during the night?
BH: Yeah, night training yeah, most of my flying hours were at night.
TO: And how long would a mission tend to last?
BH: Well, it be anything, an hour, an hour and a half, if you are doing circuits and bumps it could be an hour, we say the circuits and landings, circuits and bumps we called them. But one and three quarters hours, something like that.
TO: Cool. And what was the procedure for a squadron’s aircraft to take off?
BH: Well that was controlled by airfield control. Would you like a drink?
TO: No thanks, I’m fine, my eyes are a bit sore. [unlcear]
BH: You’re alright?
TO: Yeah, I’m fine. Yes, so, do you remember what the procedure was for taking off?
BH: Yeah, first of all you went out to dispersal by the crew bus, then you, you got in your positions, everybody in, everything was tested, the ailerons, rudders, flaps, not the flaps but the, certainly the ailerons, then the engines were started up, first the hydraulics, I think was the port outer then the port [unclear] in [unclear] and so forth. Get them running up all ready, then you got the call from aircraft control and you taxied out. And you waited on the tarmac and then as you were called from the air control on the end of the runway, right, give you the green light, you just went round and off you go.
TO: And what about landing, what was the procedure for that?
BH: Same thing, they called it, what they called the funnel, you’re in, pilot called out ‘funnel funnel‘, and they’re calling and said, ‘you do a circuit of the airfield and you come in’ and then, landing in like that there, one after the other and they called that funnel. That’s when you’re most vulnerable, the flaps are down, undercarriage is down, you have slow airspeed and that’s when they took advantage with the intruders.
TO: Were landings and take offs ever nerve-racking at all?
BH: No, I loved them, it’s the best part of it, landing and taking off. Even now, with commercial aircraft, the best part.
TO: When you were flying, could you, were you always above cloud level or?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Or could you ever see the land below?
BH: Only when it’s what they called ten tenths but if it’s like this you couldn’t, probably the height of the clouds at the moment thirty, thirty five thousand feet so if you did it in twenty you could see, but as I say, most of it was at night and don’t forget blackout everywhere. So, it’s all done by navigation and Gee.
TO: And how did Gee work?
BH: It was a series of signals and it was like a small television screen and they had two bars running, one across there and one underneath it, with like “V”s on them, like that, and then as you match them up, you press another button, up come a map where you were, showing you exactly where you were. But that time we got lost somewhere over the Midlands so it didn’t work so we didn’t know where we were but yeah I used to enjoy doing that because when we knew we were quite safe I used to get out of the turret and help Arthur with his navigation ‘cause one of my pet subjects that was when we at ITW.
TO: Were you allowed to leave the turret or were you supposed to stay there?
BH: Unofficially. No once you’re in there, you’re supposed stay in there, but there you are.
TO: And how, how much, was it very noisy aboard the planes?
BH: Very noisy, drumming. A lot of guys suffered, I still have a bit of tinnutis, a lot of guys got pension for the tinnitus, the constant roar of the aircraft, the vibration as well.
TO: And did you, did you have radio sets to talk to each other?
BH: Intercom. They had what they call RT, radio transmission, which another funny story. Stan Fig [?], our radio operator, he could swear for twenty minutes without repeating the same word twice and at one time, we were coming back, on OT on Wellingtons, and we were in a circuit and down on the starboard side to me, which is the port side, ‘cause I’m in reverse to the pilot, I called up with his [unclear] ‘Pete there is someone trying to muscle in on the circuit’, right, on your port side, right, now before that he puts, he switches the RT on, asked for permission to land, now that goes everywhere. So Stan, he puts his head up then and he starts swearing about these guys trying to muscle in. When we got down in the crew bus, picked us up and then he went and picked the other crew up who were Canadians and they go, who is that so and so and so swearing at us? Pete the pilot forgot to switch off the RT, yeah, and it’s gone everywhere, the Germans must have thought it was a foreign language or code, when we, had to report to the air control right and the WAAF at the air control she had a fit with all the swearing and everything [laughs], so, everybody knew about it, right, so anyway we got roasted over that.
TO: And whenabouts did that occur? Do you know what year and month that occured?
BH: Ah, that was in ’43, ’44.
TO: And this was during a training mission, was it?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Could you ever see the cities below you when you were flying over them?
BH: No, that’s all blacked out.
TO: And did you hear about the D-Day invasion?
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah, because when it happened when they said it was a delay in pilot training they sent us back to St John’s Wood where we originally, all the aircrews reported to St John’s Wood. My first day I reported to St John’s Wood to have an inspection in Lord’s, I dropped my trousers under the portrait of W.G. Grace and again, I’ll tell you what, a plate of oxtail soup and we were billeted in St John‘s’ Wood so we were sent back to St John’s Wood and while we were still there the D-Day was on. We saw the aircraft going over. So, I remember that very well. June the 6th 1944.
TO: Were those have been the airborne troops or bombers?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
TO: So were they airborne troops?
BH: Yeah. Were going over London from all round, from the South Coast, Sterlings were taking the gliders.
TO: What do you think of the Sterling?
BH: I’ve never got in touch with it, it was older and all but 622 Squadron they had Sterlings at first ‘cause it was a peacetime build up, peacetime field which 622 was born out of C flight of 15 Squadron which now flies Typhoons chasing German, Russian bombers. And they reinformed, we reinformed in Brize Norton three years ago and that’s why I was invited three years ago and also in May this last, this May to go there to give a talk on Manna. That’s why it’s all there.
TO: Did they enjoy the talk?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Do you know of anyone or meet anyone who ever refused to go on bombing missions?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. Couple of Jewish friends, Harry Irons, who I mentioned, he was a tailor, he went in as a gunner straight away and, yeah, a lot of guys from Manna, who were wing commanders, one was a group captain, and we were as one, there was no rank then but great guys. One was Des Butters [?], he was a pilot on Pathfinders so yeah. Another one, I know very well, friend as well, David Fellowes, he is still very active, goes round signing books and he’s older than me.
TO: Were there any other times where someone refused to go on a bombing raid?
BH: Well, the only contact I had with anything like that is our first navigator, who was married and he couldn’t take it anymore and in those days they called it Lack of Moral Fibre. Today you’d go and see a psychiatrist and you’re just whipped away, away, demoted, taken to a place like Christchurch or something like that and demoted him and they treated you like dirt, where it’s a mental condition, I mean, they just didn’t want anybody contaminated, so we had to have a new navigator, a bomb aimer, sorry, he was a bomb aimer, a new bomb aimer.
TO: Did they ever, did he ever talk about what, the problems he had?
BH: Mh?
TO: Did this man ever talk about the problems he’d faced?
BH: No. No. Kept it to himself and then suddenly it’s gone.
TO: What is your best memory of your time in the RAF?
BH: My best memory is after the war when I was sent to Italy and I was on a Squadron, Cento, 112 Squadron and flying in a harbour towing drogues and they had the wing had it’s own rest centre with a hotel, the place called Grado and they want somebody to run it ‘cause the guy was going home. So I volunteered, so all I had to do was go there, make sure it was run properly, make sure it had all the rations and everything else, saw that the staff got paid, got myself a big ‘Q’ time dinghy, go down on the beach. Go back for lunch, go back to the beach again and make sure everything was alright. So until the winter set in then I couldn’t do it anymore and came home in January 1947. But there was the best time in the RAF [laughs].
TO: And, sorry to ask this, but what is your worst memory of your time in the RAF or of the war in general?
BH: The worst memory is the ones that I told you, when the aircraft was rattling and we didn’t know where we were. Everything else is taken in stride.
TO: What did you tend to do to keep up morale?
BH: Morale didn’t come into, as I said, we were all volunteers, we knew what we were in for, so we used to go drinking together as a crew when we had nights off, each one bought a round of half a pint , so that’s three and a half pints, twice, seven pints, so we used to roll back, go to somebody else’s aircraft and get a wick of their oxygen and go back to bed. And they probably did the same to us.
TO: How did the oxygen help?
BH: Well, it livened you up really, it sobered you up.
TO: Were there any occasions where you oxygen supplies froze up?
BH: Mh?
TO: Did your oxygen supplies ever freeze up?
BH: No, no. Not that I know of.
TO: And how did those heated jackets work that you mentioned?
BH: Very good, in fact they ruined my feet for a while. You had, first of all you had silk and wool underwear, vest, long pants right the way down to the, then you had the uniform. Then there was, as far as the gunners were concerned, there was this heated suit which plugged in, so you had slippers, heated slippers that plugged in and all connected, all the way up. Then, your flying suit on top of that, your gauntlets, inner gauntlet was a heated one and all studded to this inner suit and then of course, your, mae west and then your parachute harness on top of that, so you were really lumbering. They brought you at one time what they called the tailor’s suit, it was massive, I don’t know why they got it, we couldn’t get into the turret with it so we quickly discarded that. It was huge like, huge, you know, God knows, anyway it was a bad buy, called it the tailor’s suit. So, yes, we had a heated suit but the heated slippers created havoc with the sole of my feet, burnt them, and it took two or three years after I had come out of the air force to get it right and after that out of habit I still wear white socks.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing on the day the war ended?
BH: Yeah, I was over Holland dropping food. It was the last flight and then the war was over. May the 8th 1945.
TO: And what kind of entertainment did you have at your airbases?
BH: Well, some of them had ENSA concerts but there was not on the base, you had to go outside, at Mildenhall there was a cinema in the town. Some places had ENSA, where the singers and dancers used to come, they would do a performance, some were horrible, sometimes the cinema. One had a cinema that had broke down, halfway through the film, with Cary Grant, don’t remember the title but anyway broke down and that was that so went to the pub but entertainment mostly go to the pub, local pub.
TO: Were there any particular songs that the RAF liked to sing?
BH: No, not really. We used to sing flying, flying fortresses, fly never so high, go round [unclear] in circles finally finishing on their own, up their own backsides, something like that. Well, we put a girl on a bar in a pub and the song is, this is your ankles, this is your kneecap, this is your and this is r, r, r, you know, all that palaver and the girls loved it. But apart from that, made our own entertainment.
TO: And on days when you were just stationed on the airbases, not on operations, could you hear the drone of other bombers flying around?
BH: Well, the Americans. Oh yeah, well at Mildenhall because they used to start four o’clock, five o’clock in the morning. ‘Cause they would totally fly in day, in daylight, which they could, you know, they were vulnerable, very vulnerable.
TO: And do you think the war was worth the price?
BH: Mh?
TO: Do you think the war was worth the price?
BH: I’m sorry.
TO: Do you think the war was worth it?
BH: It was essential. You wouldn’t be here today. Nor would I. It was essential. The biggest mistake was, when Hitler came to power, I think, Churchill warned, war was coming, nobody took him notice until finally 1938, ’36, the Spanish War, which was a rehearsal for the Germans, they should’ve start rearming then, ‘cause the writing was on the wall. But there were a lot of vested interests in this country like Lord Halifax at that time, who was, he wanted to negotiate with the Germans. Churchill sent him to America as an ambassador, he was a German lover and there were a few others in the arms industry as well, them German lovers, vested interests. So in 1936 the writing was on the wall. So, Churchill was the only one who could see it. And they called him a warmonger. But they say, comes the moment, comes the right man.
TO: And how do you feel about Germany today?
BH: The old generation I don’t want hear anything to do about. The new generation are different ‘cause they don’t want anything to do with their own teutonic ways of life, they’re youngsters, you can understand, they’re a great help to Israel, lot of Germans used to go to Israel, kibbutz and all that, I’ve been there, they’ve been there, right, and no, from what they doing I admire them but the only thing now is, I mean, now we got this exodus, well, I call it the exodus, Brexit, coming out of Europe, my opinion is that in time that Germany will be the dominant nation in Europe, who don’t like the French and the French don’t like them. I just hope [emphasis] that it all works out, we don’t get sucked into another war. Because the idea of a united Europe in the first place was to stop wars. So, I’m sad at the outcome. But as far as the Germans today, I admire them in a way, they’re doing well, very well. In part of course they got right wingers again, which has clouded the whole issue with the referendum, I mean immigration has clouded the whole issue, people can’t see further than, so I won’t go on to that. ‘Cause there is one man I blame, it’s the worst president at the wrong time, at the wrong time, Obama. You can edit this but I’ll tell you, when he said to the Syrians, yeah, that if you use chemical weapons on your population, that is a red line, and he’d become a puff, a puff of a pink line, he’d done nothing and that was the signal for them to do whatever they wanted to do. What general tells the enemy or, I’m not going to send an army in, there will be no boots on the ground and that caused what is happening now and that’s caused, who wants to leave their home really, and that’s caused a desperate refugee problem in Syria. I put it down to, the quicker he goes the better, he’s out anyway, so. That’s my opinion.
TO: And what do you think of Britain’s involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan?
BH: I think it was the right one. I really do. With Afghan it’s been going on for years, when I mean the Russians and all they’re interested in doing there is killing one another and killing everybody else. I mean, it was going on before the First World War, our Bomber Harris used to fly biplanes, and they used to fly with I think it was a pot of gold ‘cause if they were captured, they gave it to the Afghanis, the tribesmen otherwise they cut their testicles off. So, that’s pre 1914. So that’s [unclear]. With Iraq that was a different story, yeah. The biggest mistake with Iraq when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, yeah, and Bush senior invaded, don’t forget Palestinian also, Palestinian terrorist also sided with and in they went into Kuwait as well, right, thought that was a good thing. But when George Bush senior and the Allies went in and pushed them out of Kuwait and on the road to Baghdad all the goodies said stop, you mustn’t do it, said stop, that created the next problem and the next problem was, who knew, he did have gas, he gassed his own people. Of course he had a secret weapon. All these do-gooders, yeah, what happened if they did have them? But the biggest mistake was and is, the Western world does not understand the hatred between the Sunni and the, oh God.
TO: The Shi’a. The Shi’a?
BH: Shi’a. They hate one another. And always will hate one another. They didn’t understand the enmity. So the Shi’a were the governing body in Iraq and the Sunnis hated the sight of them. ‘Cause you got Iran fostering them all up as well. But the bigger to say was they used to call the Foreign Office the camel brigade, Arab lovers ‘cause most of them used be educated in Lisbon, they don’t understand the hatred between the Shi’a and the Sunni and that will never go away. There will never be peace with them. That’s the biggest problem. Don’t blame Blair, blame his advisors who knew the Arab mind, they knew about Islam, they didn’t advise him properly. You go in, make sure you got a proper government. Don’t leave it to the Sunnis or the Shi’a. And that will go on.
TO: I think I pretty much asked all of my questions, so. Thank you so much, I really enjoyed.
BH: You are welcome. Do you want a cup of tea or something?
TO: Ah [file missing] So.
BH: Did the museum supply you with that?
TO: No, it’s my own.
BH: Really?
TO: I brought my so, I do film interviews. And, have you ever watched films about the war?
BH: Yeah.
TO: And what do you think of them?
BH: Yeah, quite good. Glorified, you know, made for the screen, a couple of, a few things they say makes me wince, but for instance pilots always have to be commissioned, right, but, in actual fact you could have a sergeant pilot and a squadron leader rear gunner, right, but films glorify, I mean, as far as a pilot is, ‘cause he’s, the officer he’s the only one to talk about, so. The best film I ever saw was “Journey Together”, where, it takes Richard Attenborough, when he was very young and somebody else, can’t remember his name, where they come together in the ITW and it goes through their course and Richard Attenborough, and then he’s gone overseas, and so is his friend, his friend come to pilot, Richard Attenborough can’t tackle flying, crashes the plane [unclear] and he doesn’t like it, he has to be a navigator, so it is a very good film, so they put him to the test, right, so the screen pilot is flying an Anson which is the one of the planes I was trained on and says I’m not [unclear] and Richard Attenborough, I can’t get what, you know, he want to be a pilot, anyway he says I’m not [unclear] something then they got him, he actually got up, worked it all out then where he were and he realised then that he is just as important as a navigator as all the rest of the crew. Each one has his job to do, they are all important, so, I think that was the best one ever. Another one was the “Journey to the Stars”, we see again only officers please, yeah, otherwise worth watching but that with the “Journey Together” was the only one that I really liked. The other was, you know, we only serve officers if you don’t mind.
TO: What do you think of the Dam Busters film?
BH: Well, that was quite factual, and they couldn’t mess about with that. So, that was quite good, that was quite factual. In fact, in matter of fact, we met his daughter, Barnes Wallis’s daughter up at Coningsby year before last.
TO: Yeah.
BH: Was Open Day up there. I don’t if you went.
TO: No. And do you remember hearing about Japan attacking Pearl Harbour?
BH: Yeah. Yeah, 1941. Of course.
TO: And what was your attitude when you heard that that had happened?
BH: Well, this is the Axis, the come together the Japanese and the Germans, and the Italians of course. No, it was all part of the war process, wasn’t it?
TO: And what do you think of America’s use of the atomic bombs?
BH: Absolutely right. The war could have gone on for ages. Could have gone on for years. Are you tried to sorting out all those islands full of Japanese soldiers and the poor people in the camps? Right? Building the railways, slave labour, starving to death, of course it was right. Absolutely. Don’t call me a warmonger.
TO: I’m not.
BH: [laughs]
TO: And what do you, do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly?
BH: Bomber Command was not?
TO: Treated unfairly after the war.
BH: Sorry?
TO: Do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly after the war?
BH: Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s why Bomber Harris went to South Africa. He didn’t want us to be redundant. Don’t forget a lot of them had to cover up their chevrons, they had to cover up their rank, I mean, that was degrading.
TO: Why did they cover their chevrons?
BH: Because they were given [unclear] office work and things like that, yeah, and so they couldn’t work amongst people, all the aircraftsmen so they had a thought, oh well, they cover up their chevrons, after all that, the thinking of some of them in Air Ministry that’s why Bomber Harris went in disgust, he wanted us demobbed.
TO: And do you remember hearing about when the Cold War was starting and Stalin was taking over Europe?
BH: [unclear] sorry?
TO: Do you remember hearing about when Stalin was taking over Eastern Europe?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, first of all there was a treaty between him and Germans over Poland which the Germans broke fortunately, they brought Russia into the war, but he was just, to me, you know, Fascism and Communism in it’s rawest form are just as bad as one another, even to this present day, I mean Putin, he is just mixing it all up and that’s the Russian way of going. And we again in the West are too weak, Crimea, he got away with it, as he gets away with everything. ‘Cause he’s too powerful, he’s bombing civilians. In Syria no one takes any notice but I bet you, because personally, right, if the Israelis done anything like that, it’d be like that on the headlines. Which they wouldn’t. Are you with me?
TO: Yeah.
BH: But Russia, no protest from anybody. He’s moving children out there in Syria on the pretext ‘cause he’s shearing up Assad, ‘cause he wants the Mediterranean Tripoli port for his Mediterranean fleet. It’s the only reason. But he’s a murderer. So he’s as bad as any Nazi.
TO: And do you remember, were there any particular celebrations when Japan surrendered?
BH: When what?
TO: When Japan surrendered, were there any particular celebrations?
BH: Oh yeah, well that was in, what was it June, was it, ’45?
TO: Yeah, August/September.
BH: Yeah, ’45, oh yeah, but that was a sort of a sideshow, as to the war in Europe. But the emancipated people that came out on the, terrible, I mean, they’re animals to do what they did. So, that’s all behind us now, was it?
TO: And how do you feel today about your wartime service? How do you feel today about your wartime service?
BH: I’m quite proud of it. I wish I could’ve done more. Yeah.
TO: And what was your career when you left the RAF?
BH: Irregular [laughs]. To own my own business, owned my own business, had that going. Don’t forget that, you know, I’m not the exception but a lot of people, thousands of people, I mean, come out the forces, they didn’t know what to do, right, some had been in five years, four years, three years, I was in four years, four years out of your teens yeah, so you don’t want to be regulated if you know what I mean, right. You are really unsettled until you find your niche and yeah, unsettled, ‘til finally I founded my own business and that was that. Then I knew what was about.
TO: And, sorry I didn’t ask, during the Blitz, whereabouts in London were you living?
BH: In East London, Forest Gate and then we moved not far from here, to Chapel Heath, which is further up the road there and bought my own house, we had a great time there. The only reason I’m here is ‘cause the house was too big for my wife, she was suffering from emphysema, so the best thing is to get a retirement flat like this. I’ve got a sister who lives in Arizona, we’ve done three months there. I got a son and grandchildren in Israel, we’ll have three months there and the rest of the time in between summer months here. But as soon as we retire, that’s what we’re gonna do. So we bought there [unclear] outstanding [?], you tell him upstairs what’s going on, and what your plans are, he’ll laugh his head off. Didn’t work out. Within two years she was dead. So I’m here, don’t particularly like it, I make the best of it, so I go to Israel a few times, my son is now living down in the Negev but it is too hot for me, I was there last October, [laughs] hit a hundred and four Fahrenheit, so a bit too hot for me, it’s alright further north, Tel Aviv and all around there, Jerusalem, but not where he is. So that’s the name of the game but always say, tell him up there, your plans, laugh his head off, he’ll make sure it doesn’t work out, and you know what I mean.
TO: Is there anything that was important to you during the war that you’ve not talked about, which you think is important?
BH: What?
TO: Is there anything that was important to you during the war which you’ve not mentioned so far, which you think is important?
BH: No, not really, I can’t think of anything. I certainly know when the V1 was about because we were training over the, flying over the North Sea, and we were told, if we see anything like that we shouldn’t mention it to the public, and when on leave with the V2 we just walk, suddenly there’s a thump, it’s the rocket had landed, but then again you know, you’re immune to these things, coming conditioned I think.
TO: So did the V1s or V2s have any impact on public morale?
BH: Concerned but they weren’t frightened of them, they knew, you know, it was the end of the war anyway. Everything was going right and that was the last throw of the Germans, Peenemunde was known about and bombed, but the V1 was transferable, they could move it around, with the V2 rockets had to have their own base and they were bombed out of sight, but a few got up and dropped but people took it as they did in the Blitz.
TO: Did you ever visit any of those places like Coventry or?
BH: Only on business, yeah. Places I built. Portsmouth and Plymouth, Plymouth, new town, new city. Rotterdam new city, absolutely new.
TO: And what do you think was the biggest mistake that the Allies made during the war?
BH: I don’t think they, I think it was circumstances, I don’t think there was any mistake. They had to respond to circumstances and the main thing they had to keep in mind was defeating the Germans. So, if there were a few mistakes, when they tried Dieppe, it didn’t come off but they were probing and they had to do these things to test their defences, so I wouldn’t put that as a mistake, it was unfortunate.
TO: And what do you think was the most important battle of the war?
BH: Mh?
TO: What do you think was the most important battle of the war?
BH: Well, two. The Battle of Britain and the North African campaign. Because they cleared that, there was a jumping off to get into Southern Europe via Sicily and Italy. So, two. The bombing campaign was a consequence of war, that was to stop Germany getting too strong by manufacturing armaments and things like that and also the psychological part of it was giving a bit of their own medicine because the public was screaming out for something to be done in revenge and the Germans, a part from being a planned objective, is also a moral and psychological one, giving them back as good as they get, as they’re given. That’s my opinion.
TO: Anything else you want to add to anything you said earlier at all or?
BH: No, I don’t think so.
TO: Right well.
BH: Just nice to have seen you.
TO: Thank you very much, it was
BH: Give my regards from up there.
TO: Was a pleasure to talk to you, thank you very much.
BH: Yeah. Nice to see you. And be well.
TO: Thank you, you too.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHarrisB160626
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bernie Harris. Two
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
02:19:14 audio recording
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tom Ozel
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-26
Description
An account of the resource
Bernie Harris joined the Air Training Corps and volunteered for the Royal Air Force, joining in April 1943 and training to become an air gunner. Mentions his father serving in the Royal Flying Corps. Witnessed the London Blitz as a young boy. Describes training and operational flying conditions. Gives a vivid, detailed, first-hand account of Operation Manna. Expresses his view on wartime events, including Chamberlain’s speech, the North African campaign, the Phoney War and the Russian contribution to the Allied victory. Explains why, in his opinion, the Allies decided not to bomb the concentration camps during the war. He was de-mobbed in 1947, after a final posting to Italy with 112 Squadron. After the war he set up his own business leasing vending machines. He later became involved in an association of ex-servicemen who were involved in Operation Manna.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04
1945-05
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
515 Squadron
622 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
entertainment
faith
Flying Training School
Gee
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Holocaust
home front
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Hixon
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Woolfox Lodge
Stalin, Joseph (1878-1953)
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/282/3435/AJenkinsAE160709.1.mp3
d7f55b2a9645816ec63b14a23072b635
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jenkins, Alexander Elliott
Alexander Elliott Jenkins
Alexander E Jenkins
Alexander Jenkins
A E Jenkins
A Jenkins
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Alexander Elliott Jenkins (430033 Royal Australian Air Force).
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Jenkins, AE
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RG: Preamble to the interview with Alex Jenkins of 6 Belton Place, Orange, New South Wales, Australia. Alex was a Lancaster pilot in 460 Squadron who was shot down and although he spent some time in a German hospital it was only a matter of a short, a fairly short time. He wasn’t ever in a prison camp. He was returned to the UK and resumed operations in 1945. Interviewers are Rob Gray and Lucie Davison. Also present at the interview was Alex’s wife, Pauline.
AJ: In fact one of my colleagues coming in clipped the top of Lincoln Cathedral and he went, he could have really cracked. Clipped the top and he had to, after that to just, for some reason or other he couldn’t continue but he continued, lost height slowly and finally belly landed [laughs] not all that far from where he’d come down. But he went clean through the biggest chicken farm [laughs] in the whole of England. Can you imagine all of the, all of the God-damned chickens. We renamed him after that for obvious reasons.
RG: Chook.
AJ: Chook.
LD: Do the intro.
RG: Hmmn?
LD: Do the intro.
RG: Yeah. I’ll just do a quick intro, Alex. This is an interview with Alex Jenkins. Former pilot with 460 Squadron.
AJ: Yes.
RG: And survivor of being shot down. Interview. The date is the 8th of July. Interviewees are Rob Gray and Lucie Davison. So do you want to lead off?
LD: Yeah. Look, I’ve basically, I’ve kind of, you know compiled just a little order of service but it’s really just to make sure that we try and cover all bases.
AJ: Yes.
LD: You know.
AJ: Yeah.
LD: It’s certainly not meant to be definitive. So —
AJ: I know. You’ve got to have some guidance.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Yeah, it’s —
RG: But on the other hand also this way, because you’ve done interviews and things before haven’t you?
AJ: Yes. Some time back I had an interview. Pauline. My memory, by the way is, short term memory, is very, very poor now. I’ve been a bit ill and so on and I can’t remember accurately even some of the simple things.
RG: Oh yes.
AJ: So Paul, when she comes in, if there’s something that I can’t remember she knows a fair bit about it.
RG: She’ll know about it. Yeah. Ok. I was going to say though that we were particularly interested in, like your personal recollections.
AJ: Yes.
RG: So if something comes to mind.
AJ: Right.
RG: Please feel free to divert from the original question.
AJ: Yeah. Right. Right.
RG: So Lucie do you want to —
LD: Yeah. Just interested in your background and, you know, where you grew up.
AJ: Right.
LD: And why you joined the air force initially.
AJ: Yeah.
LD: And so on.
AJ: Yes. That’s rather interesting because it starts really with the history of my father who was terribly knocked around in the First World War. In the, in France. He wasn’t at Gallipoli, but he was in France. In the gunnery groups. And he was gassed and terribly injured. Came back home. And from the time he arrived home just before the war finished in France, he was in and out of military hospitals. Never really recovered enough long term and as a result of that — and my mother was born way up in the Kelly country of North Eastern Victoria with the, her surname was Cann. C A N N. Now, C A N N.
LD: Cann River.
AJ: Now, Cann River and all those things were well documented. The Canns were horse breakers and they were rabble rousing. And in fact William Cann, and this is not apocryphal, William Cann was the principal horse breaker and roustabout in the Kelly gang.
RG: Ah ok.
AJ: And William Cann, he was actually jailed after the shoot-up and so on and served his time. And as my dear mother used to say, ‘Don’t you mention that you’ve got a relative — ?’ [laughs] Most people were very interested. Particularly since he was the one who used to, they had a little tin with a bit of wire around and, and make the fires. It was nicknamed — billy can.
RG: Billy can. yes. Yeah.
AJ: Billy can.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That’s where the term first started to be used. Used. It’s in —
RG: Of course. Yes.
AJ: The Billy can.
RG: William Cann. Yes.
AJ: Anyway, my father was in and out and he, on my eighteenth birthday I was one of the first Legacy awards. We were raised in the slums of Toorak. Toorak, you know, down by the railway lines in those days was a cut-throat area. It was criminals, and God knows.
RG: That’s like Surry Hills in Sydney at the same time. That sort of —
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That was my raising. We were very, very poor. I was brought back from the country where my mother was — she went there I think after they got together. I’m not quite sure how they got together straight after the war. But I was a sort of lad that was caught up in the Samuel McCaughey whip around in the north. I think, darling that if you wouldn’t mind when we have the tea that you sit here too with me as I —
PJ: Why. I’ve heard it all a thousand times before [laughs]
AJ: I mean, I was saying my memory is pretty terrible in various things. Anyway, she [pause] I was brought down under the state government’s attempt to round up these uneducated wild kids.
LD: Right.
AJ: Of which I was one. And we were forcibly removed from the family in North Eastern Victoria, black books, and brought to Melbourne for our own good. Shades of the roundup of the aborigines.
LD: Yes. Absolutely.
RG: Oh yes. There was more than one stolen generation.
AJ: As a result of that I was often in sort of foster care. And my mother was ill. Etcetera etcetera. And dad had had such a terrible life that —
[background chat]
AJ: It was impossible, it was quite impossible for me to forget that sort of thing. And my dad finished up, when I’d turned, was approaching eighteen I was fortunately a gifted kid in education. And I finally got to Melbourne Boy’s High and had an excellent career there and my legacy guardian was none other than Bill Woodfall. The great cricketer.
RG: Oh ok.
AJ: And they, oh they were wonderful people and they looked after me. And I, as 1942 turned over I found myself at Melbourne University in first year. So —
RG: What, what discipline?
AJ: In engineering.
RG: Engineering.
AJ: Engineering yes. And metallurgy. Materials. So I, at the time when I’d completed first year university at Melbourne that would be ’42. I felt, on my eighteenth birthday, dad was in Bundoora Mental Asylum, behind the wire.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Terrible.
RG: As a result of the war.
AJ: Yeah. And I said I’m going to get even for dad and so I joined up at eighteen. On my eighteenth birthday. 29th of October 1942. Well, all hell broke loose because that was a protected profession.
LD: Yes.
AJ: You weren’t allowed to join the service.
LD: Yes. I was wondering how you could join up.
[background chat]
AJ: I got as far as Somers camp and the university and the government people forced, came down and said, ‘You’re coming back. You’re man-powered. You can’t join the services.’ I went back to Melbourne Uni and I stood before the enquiry group of the profession and some of the representatives of the professorial board at Melbourne University and the government official who was man-powering people. I said, ‘I’ve got news for you. You can all get stuffed. I’m not going to continue my course. I’m going to join the service.’ Prof Greenwood was the professor. An English don of the old school.
RG: The old school.
AJ: He was a wonderful bloke. He was called the pink professor simply because he spoke out, you know, more on moral social issues.
LD: So pink as in shades of communist.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Shades of red.
AJ: Yeah. And he fought for me and he won. He said, ‘This man must be allowed to serve. And join and serve. He has had such provocation. And we will see him on his return when he can resume his course.’ Well, that was it then. I joined the air force. Went in to training at Benalla and went solo and so on there. And after a lot of argy bargy after I’d completed the conversion on to Wirraways at Deniliquin. The great Australian fighter. We graduated to get our wings. You know, to become young sergeant pilots. Well, in the interim, just briefly I had been leading a small group of three on our last, final flight before graduation. Now on a long cross country to be twenty, fifty feet above all obstacles. Low flying exercise. And as part of that low flying exercise by tradition we used to bring the Wirraway down. You could imagine at nearly two hundred miles per hour and the great wheat fields, if they were in that stage —
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Which they were when I was ready for graduation you’d bring it down, you’d look in your rear vision mirror and when you were cutting a furrow along the top of the wheat.
RG: You were low enough.
AJ: You were low enough. But —
LD: So, six feet will do.
AJ: Three of us. And the trouble was that the farmers, they hated this practice.
RG: I can’t understand why.
AJ: Because, you know this was low. We had to get the low flying experience. And the air force had the horror of seeing me charged by the civilian.
RG: Authorities. Yeah.
AJ: They appealed you see, and I was made an example. I was the leader of that flight. And so instead of just rapping me over the knuckles and saying, ‘Don’t do it again because you’re so close to graduation,’ I got sentenced to twenty eight days in the Geelong jail.
RG: My God.
AJ: As a civilian. As a young man in training. It caused such a colossal outcry. You know, here what the hell is it coming to.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: If a guy can’t train for war and the civilians say he can’t do that.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Anyway, it was famous. People went through all the business and when I got out.
LD: So you did have to serve the time.
PJ: Oh yes.
LD: The RAF wasn’t able to —
AJ: Oh it was terrible because they brought all the rapists and the murderers down from the Queensland coast. They were frightened of the Jap invasion up there. And they were all, all of the worst types. And myself at eighteen and another young lad. A young bloke. I don’t know what his offence was. We served, but we served, and you could imagine what those nasty bastards. I didn’t know anything about male practices on other males. I was innocent. But finally we turned around and the other bloke and myself and we were young. Fit. And we belted some of these, some of these vicious saddoes and guards up. And they took it out on us and really did us over. Anyway, the end of the twenty eight days came, and I got back to Deniliquin, and graduation. Another month. I was a month behind after my internment. And the graduation came, and everyone, step forward so and so, sergeant so and so, step forward so and so such. And the Hs, you were doing it. And the I’s. The J’s came and went, and my name wasn’t mentioned. K L M N and right through to the end. And then there was a bit of a drum roll and the commanding officer and the big wigs thing there then said, ‘Step forward Pilot Officer Alexander Jenkins.’ They commissioned me of course. And that —
RG: And that’s, that would have been extremely unusual.
AJ: Oh that did. That caused. Anyway it was so bad in many ways. The whole history of the event. The parliament had gone crazy about this sort of stupidity.
LD: So you’d be there [unclear]
AJ: Two weeks later I was on a troop ship. Fast troop ship.
PJ: Just to digress so you can have another mouthful and another piece of cake or a biscuit or something. This went into limbo as far as Alex was concerned. He had to appear in court on a driving, a possible driving offence. He was not convicted but the barrister representing him said, ‘Alex, you didn’t tell me you’d already been in jail.’ And it was still on the records.
RG: Records. Yeah.
PJ: That he’d been in jail. So that was then. They did the right thing and removed it but you know he’d forgotten all about it at this stage.
RG: You would wouldn’t you? After, you know, you would.
PJ: He was sixty or something, you know and anyhow —
AJ: Being an officer and two hundred and fifty airmen. Sergeants, you know. Navs, pilots and so on, on this troop ship which took us solo straight over to the —
PJ: San Francisco.
RG: Oh.
PJ: You went to —
AJ: Coast up to San Francisco. And from there —
PJ: You went over. You were based in that. You know there’s that big base on that island there by the harbour of San Francisco.
AJ: Past Alcatraz. Yeah.
RG: Oh ok. Yeah.
PJ: San Francisco.
AJ: But from there on —
RG: Yeah.
AJ: As an officer I, it was fortunate that I suppose I was because we did our training.
PJ: But at your exercise in New York he was billeted out with the McGraw-Hill, the McGraw-Hill book people.
RG: Oh yeah. The publishers. Yes.
PJ: The millionaires. So he was billeted with them and they carted him around and he ended up meeting people and singing with Jimmy Durante and —
LD: Oh wow.
AJ: Lena Horne.
PJ: Lena Horne.
AJ: Lena Horne and I became very firm dance partners etcetera. It was quite a, quite a business and then —
RG: Quite an adventure for a young man from —
PJ: That’s right. From the bush in Victoria.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: It was fascinating.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Do you remember the name of the ship that you went on?
AJ: No. I don’t, darling.
PJ: On the ship. Let me think. Was it the Mariposa?
AJ: No. It wasn’t a —
PJ: It was —
AJ: I think it was the Lurline.
PJ: Yeah. Well the Lurline, wasn’t the Lurline the one that came across? It will be there in your, in your book.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: I’ll have a look and see if it’s there.
LD: Well that’s alright. It was just —
RG: It was just —
AJ: But anyway —
PJ: I’ll just have a look and see if it’s in his history there.
AJ: Eventually after about a month in New York the great convoy was formed and off we go. And that was —
LD: So, you did go across as part of a convoy.
AJ: A tremendous convoy.
LD: Right.
AJ: And accompanied by American flat top battleships. You know, the ones that had no structure on top.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Just guns.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: Things like that. We lost an awful lot of boats.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Of course. It was submarine attacks.
RG: So this was the end of ’42 wasn’t it?
AJ: This would be —
RG: What? Early ’43?
AJ: ’42 I joined. ’43. ’43.
RG: [Unclear] Battle of the Atlantic. Yeah.
AJ: And I got to Britain and my first thought as I saw Liverpool and all these barrage balloons. I said, ‘God almighty if they cut those balloons the bloody island would sink.’
LD: So, so did you arrive directly in Liverpool?
AJ: Hmmn?
LD: Did you arrive directly in Liverpool?
AJ: Yes.
LD: Or did you go around through Greenock.
AJ: No. No.
LD: Ok.
AJ: Directly in Liverpool. And from there the Australian contingent was taken down to, eventually down to Brighton on the south coast where we [pause] I did various training things. Learning to — how to get out of parachutes if you landed in water and all that sort of thing.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I wouldn’t call it nonsense but it was very very tough.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Activity. And I had.
RG: So that was sort of survival training.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Eventually I was.
LD: Sorry, was that done at Brighton or was that done —?
AJ: Yes. That sort of introduction to survival and elementary training in use of parachutes and things like that was all done at Brighton.
LD: Wow.
AJ: And then you were, well I was eventually posted up to places. I had completed first year uni and therefore in training I had a good mathematical background etcetera.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And so they fast-tracked me in training in the centre part of England for eventual allocation to the famous Mosquito high flying.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: PRU. Photo reccy unit.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And I was completely just flying so high, so fast.
RG: Did you have a multi engine licence at this point?
AJ: I was trained.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I went on first on Oxfords and that kind of.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Standard training for me. But that PRU interval — I thought this is great. Flying that fast and no one could see you or shoot you. That only lasted a couple of weeks because they said, ‘Look, we’re now Bomber Command.’ This is coming through now. The year would be ’44. And they said, ‘You’re, Bomber Command for you lad.’
RG: So when did you arrive in Britain, Alex? When was that?
AJ: I arrived in Britain in December ’43 and spent all of ’44.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Right through ‘til the end of the war.
RG: Yeah. Ok.
AJ: Ok.
RG: Just trying to get a sort of timeline on it.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That’s right. I was rapidly put into the Bomber Command thing. They were taking pilots from anywhere they could get them because the losses from Bomber Command were so —
RG: Well they had, the losses were, well the Battle of Berlin was just running down then wasn’t it and —
LD: Horrendous.
AJ: And I actually joined the squadron, 460 at the very last part of December ’44. So I, fortunately missed out on the Battle of Berlin and all that sort of thing. But I’d been flying at that time up and down the coast in our training, dropping aluminium foil and trying to assist in the confusion.
RG: The deception for D-day.
AJ: Yes.
RG: Was that, was that in Mosquitos? Was that in Mosquitos you were doing that? Or in —
AJ: No. No. Lancasters.
RG: Lancs. That was Lancs. Yeah.
AJ: Lancasters.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That was part of the training. So that that went through. D-day came and went and by that time I had not joined a squadron but aircraft like ours were deployed on all sorts of weird jobs. You know, we would fly way up to, right along the French coast, over the North Sea, dropping this aluminium foil.
RG: Yeah. The Window.
AJ: And D-day came and went. And then the awful business of starting to do, being injected into the bomber stream with, before the squadron. Before I joined 460.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I’d completed all of about half a dozen raids into the German areas near the coast.
RG: While you were under training.
AJ: While training.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: They were —
RG: They had the spoof.
AJ: We were losing so many aircraft.
LD: I know.
AJ: And of course when the jets came in, the ME262 jets came in around about October, I think of 1944. And our losses were just so, there was no answer to it. And so by the time I was finally allocated to 460 Squadron myself and my crew were well versed in some of these dangers. And the —
LD: So was this a crew that was set up within the OTU or —
AJ: I beg your pardon?
LD: The crew that you joined the squadron with.
AJ: Yes.
LD: Did you guys set up within the OTU or —
AJ: Yes.
LD: Right. Ok.
AJ: That’s right.
RD: Yeah.
AJ: It was a fairly standard practice that I went through once I was on the, on to the heavy aircraft.
RG: Can I ask you, Alex, how did that crewing up occur? Because we’ve spoken to other veterans and it’s a mixed bag between people actually just finding oh we need a pilot. There’s someone over there. We’ll just grab him. And a bit more formalised.
LD: Some people even meeting in a pub.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: So how did yours work?
AJ: Actually that was quite strange the way that crews were formed. Now let me think. The crew that I finally, my first crew it would be at [pause] let me think.
PJ: This is Campbell in all this lot.
AJ: Yes. That’s right. Now where the devil did that take place? But the system was, I might remember where it was. Somewhere in central England. Firstly, you’d get up, the officer group and there were only a few officer, officer pilots because the pilot was the, was the first. He was the senior man.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: Crew captain.
RG: Captain. Yeah.
AJ: The pilots that were officers, firstly stood up on this platform and there was all these —
[background chat]
PJ: Alex is deaf. Very deaf. So he wears a hearing aid but you might have to speak up a bit.
RG: Yes. OK.
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: Anyhow, I think it was the Lurline, Alex. I can’t find it, but I think it was —
AJ: At Lichfield.
PJ: No. The Lurline. The ship you went out on.
AJ: Oh the Lurline. Yeah.
PJ: The Lurline. But —
AJ: Anyway, the pilots, officer pilots would stand up first and give a bit of a spiel saying, you know, where they’d trained. Because a lot of them had trained in Canada.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Some in South Africa.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And I stood up and said I was trained fully in Australia and commissioned off the course. Which was most unusual.
RG: Yes. Yeah.
AJ: I didn’t go into the fact that I was in jail [laughs]
RG: It might have scored points with you Alex.
AJ: Yeah. And after that, you know the other pilots would get up and do the same and then the meeting in the great hall would dissolve from formalities and you’d just wander around. And then you’d have groups of guys. Gunners would tend to, they tended to stick together. And the navigators and the w/op wireless operator blokes. They’d all, they’d be talking and some of them had teamed up with another group. And they’d come up and talk to the pilot. Many of the pilots. And after a while things sort of settled down and I got, in my crew, I got, there were two Englishmen, ‘cause the first Englishman had to be the bloke sitting at the front with you on the right.
RG: The engineer.
AJ: Not the pilot.
RG: The engineer.
AJ: Hmmn?
RG: The engineer.
AJ: Yeah. Flight engineer. Because they weren’t trained out here. They were almost invariably Englishmen.
RG: Oh. Were they? Oh. Ok.
AJ: And the man who I, who came up to me had been in the army and was highly skilled. He was thirty two years of age. An old man.
RG: Yeah.
LD: That was an old man.
AJ: But his rank, I think was oh, major I think.
RG: Wow.
AJ: Frank Stone was his name. A real gentleman.
RG: Was he a sergeant then or was he still commissioned?
AJ: No. He’d re-joined —
RG: Yeah.
AJ: The air force as a pilot officer.
RG: Right. Ok So that’s a big come down though from major to pilot.
AJ: A big come down. He was, I remember he was the first guy. So I had, as the pilot, the flight engineer, Pilot Officer Frank Stone. And he had, for some reason or other known this rear gunner and he, those two joined me. And then the other group of Aussies — the mid-upper gunner, the navigator and the wireless operator were all Australians. A couple of them were, one of them was commissioned. Now, who would that be? Anyway, one was commissioned. And so that’s the way the crew was formed. Well, we went finally, as a crew. We got posted to 460 Squadron which was, you know, we all thought oh that’s it because 460 had a great reputation and what’s his name? The VC.
PJ: Hughie Edwards.
AJ: Hughie Edwards.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Was at that time the 460.
LD: Apparently, he was the world’s worst driver.
RG: Oh was he? [laughs]
LD: Yes. He had a Mercedes.
RG: He was a pilot. Yeah [laughs]
AJ: He was a shocking pilot. Oh my God.
PJ: And then he had a Mercedes and apparently, he had more dents in it because there was a 460 Squadron —
AJ: But everybody said that you fly with Hughie [laughs] at your own risk. But he was charismatic.
PJ: Yeah.
AJ: How he could instil wonderful, wonderful feelings amongst his squadron.
PJ: One of those, one of those sort of pulling off bays, you know, along the highway. In Canberra.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yes. Hughie Edwards bay.
PJ: There was a Hughie Edwards there and his brother that was, that must have been put in, I suppose seven or eight years ago. I can’t remember but we were down there.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: It’s been a while.
PJ: And his brother was there, and he was telling a story of what a frightful driver. He had a Mercedes and he had more dents in it than you could poke a stick at.
AJ: Anyway, I’m probably getting too far ahead for your questions.
LD: No. No. We’re actually.
RG: No. No. it doesn’t matter. We’re actually ticking them off as we go. Just carry on Alex.
AJ: I started flying in combat from 460 right on [pause] almost New Year’s Day of ’45. When the, I’d been flying in, in to but not in to direct combat. We were doing interjections before that as a crew.
RG: So was that the sort of the spoof raids?
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Those sorts of things. Anyway, the first real operation was either New Year’s Day or immediately after. And —
PJ: Weren’t you involved in that Battle of the Bulge? Where, you know, there was such terrible weather.
AJ: Yeah. Yeah.
PJ: That was New Year’s. That was Christmas Day.
AJ: Yeah. Well that’s —
RG: Oh that’s right. Christmas.
PJ: It was terrible weather.
AJ: It was awful weather.
PJ: Nobody could have — the Germans couldn’t come in and the —
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: What’s the name of the town?
AJ: We were all grounded.
PJ: I’m trying to think of the name of the town.
AJ: The bomber force was grounded because of the weather.
PJ: Because there’s a memorial to the Yanks.
AJ: And then it lifted and oh God they launched everything including training aircraft against the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge. Anyway, my first raid was done as what they called a second dickie.
LD: Oh yes.
AJ: That’s a senior pilot and his crew would take you. You’d sit there in the flight engineer’s seat.
RG: Little seat. Yeah.
AJ: And you went through the raid and learned that whatever and if you were lucky you’d return. They didn’t like second dickie trips. I’ve taken a few too on when I was skilled.
RG: Yeah. When you were — yeah.
AJ: And you never liked them because for some reason or other they seemed they were cursed.
PJ: Bring you bad luck.
AJ: Bring you bad luck. Yeah. It was a fair few. Well, ok I started after that with the crew and we had a series of raids which I won’t go into but near the, on about the 20th or something of February we went to Dresden. Awful. Awful. You know the story of Dresden and so on. How we, most of us just made it back because the tremendous long trip to Dresden and the awful conflagration. I’ve often been back to Europe with Pauline.
PJ: Well, when we were in Prague. He wouldn’t go to Dresden.
AJ: We’ve had opportunities to go back to Dresden.
PJ: That was only a couple of years ago.
AJ: Just over the border and I just said no. I just can’t. I’ve never returned to Dresden.
PJ: One of the most interesting things I find with history is its very one sided. It depends who’s telling the story.
RG: Absolutely.
PJ: And you get an enormous amount and when I, ‘cause this is the second marriage for both Alex and I but we’ve now been married thirty two years so it’s been a long, a long hard road [laughs
AJ: I lost my first wife, the mother of my kids to cancer. Breast cancer.
PJ: Anyhow, the thing is that when I first married Alex he was still having nightmares about the Dresden raid etcetera and so forth and you hear a lot about the horror of the Dresden raid, but you seldom hear about the horrors of Coventry. You know, if you go to the cathedral and you see walls left and that amazing cross and so on.
RG: Been to the cathedral. Yes. Yeah.
PJ: You seldom hear this. You seldom hear. And when I was first in Europe in, because I wasn’t in the war, I’m younger than Alex but I was first in the Europe in ’54 ’55. So I was there for the tenth anniversary of the end of the war and so on. And I went through Hamburg. I went through Germany and I couldn’t believe it. You wouldn’t know there was a war there because the Marshall plan had rebuilt everything.
RG: Rebuilt. Yeah.
PJ: But London was still derelict.
RG: Yes.
PJ: All around St Paul’s was still flattened and so on.
RG: Yeah. In fact, just last night we were watching a film which was made in London in — 1953 was it?
LD: ‘51
RG: ‘51. Yeah It was in —
PJ: Still all the bomb damage.
RG: It was in the city and there was buildings down everywhere
AJ: Well, I’d better continue hadn’t I?
PJ: Oh yeah. Sorry.
PJ: That was my fault Alex.
AJ: No. No. It was —
PJ: The history is interesting.
AJ: It is interesting.
RG: It is.
PJ: Interesting.
AJ: After the Dresden we got home and the, the three nights later we went to Dortmund. A bombing raid which was pretty rough. Pretty terrible. And coming home it was midnight. Snow on the ground. And the worst possible conditions for bomber aircraft because it was heavy cloud low down. Full moon. And just above the top of the cloud which was at our return flying height, so we were in and out.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: But often silhouetted.
RG: Yeah. Silhouetted.
AJ: Against the white cloud below. We were caught by — over the German Belgian border by a Messerschmitt 262. Jet.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: They were so fast. Fully armed with cannon.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Not just machine guns. And it blew the starboard wing of my Lancaster clean off. I mean there was no, no, you know, pilot stay in his seat, hold it until the rest of the crew baled go.
RG: Just go.
AJ: And the poor crew of course who were serving. They were at their desks and so on. Never. Their parachutes were strapped to the side of the Lancaster.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: So they always had to somehow get to them, put them on.
RG: And then get out.
AJ: While I held the aircraft.
RG: But you couldn’t do that.
AJ: Theoretically in a position where they could bale out. Well there was none of that because the cannon blew the starboard wing right and the aircraft just disintegrated at twenty two thousand feet. We all went out. I never saw my crew again. Naturally. They fell to their deaths. And I, being a pilot, occasionally you’ll see this in the record in such a case the armour plated bucket seats, which I’m sitting on, sitting on your parachute went out like a cork out of a champagne bottle.
RG: The whole seat.
AJ: The whole seat. Yeah. And I don’t remember anything of that naturally. Just the disintegration. Nothing. I must have fallen. Well, I obviously did because I came to at about two thousand feet. And there’s no steel seat. Somehow that had got lost in the fall down and the parachute harness was still on me but the parachute was unopened. There’s a stick sort of thing.
RG: Handle. Yeah.
AJ: And on fire just above my head.
RG: On fire.
AJ: Yeah. And this great hero at that stage looked down and here’s a church. And we were in a little a place called Lummen in Belgium. And I looked at that and so help me, this is written up and it’s quite true. There’s no exaggeration. You know, I’m a few seconds from death. What do you think the great hero thought at that time? Christ, if I don’t bloody do something that, that’s going to go up my arse. True [laughs]
LD: [laughs] Well it would have looked very small from that height too wouldn’t it?
AJ: Talk about anti-climax. I think people who ask me what’s my, my biggest memories. I said that little thing [laughs] I thought oh gawd. So I gave the rip cord a tug and so help me this burning sticker top opened up just sufficient because I landed in the church yard.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Not on the steeple.
AJ: Not on the steeple. And I think, they say I landed in the peach tree, somewhere near, in the gravestones and so on. In any event I survived the fall. It was in no man’s land. And the Luftwaffe were in charge at that time around that part and of course we had some respect for the, or a great deal of respect actually for the massed combatant. Combatants of the Luftwaffe and there wasn’t —
PJ: And he was also quite seriously injured.
AJ: Wasn’t particularly, if you’d seen the Wehrmacht or something they would have slit my throat. I believe, quite soundly, I was finished in a field hospital of which the Germans were in charge and they saved my life. And all things went on in there and I won’t go through that but some time later —
PJ: They were retreating. The Germans were retreating and left him behind.
AJ: Eventually the Canadians moved through the area and I remember being interviewed there. I spoke up for the Luftwaffe nurses and staff.
RG: Did they leave staff there? Just for interest’s sake, some staff?.
AJ: Yeah. They didn’t want to get back with the, because they didn’t want to go to Russian front.
RG: Oh. Ok. Yeah.
AJ: And I said these people had treated me very very well. I honoured them and they wished to be taken in charge as prisoner of war ectera. ‘Yes. Yes. That can be done. But you’re under arrest.’
RG: Alex, this is becoming a habit [laughs] you know that don’t you?
AJ: And this was, this was a pommie colonel.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Oh did I give him hell.
RG: Why did he say you were under arrest though?
AJ: Good question. You know, I said the same thing, ‘What the f’ing hell are you talking about?’ Anyway, he went out and about an hour later he came back.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And he confirmed some of the basis of the story that I was saying.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And the point was that he raised that issue early because such was the loss, terrible losses of our crews.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: I must have to be sorry to say that it’s not often mentioned in the records. Many of our bomber crews cracked under the strain.
RG: Yeah. Yes.
AJ: And they used to fly over such places to become prisoners.
RG: Yes.
AJ: Or even better to get into Sweden, Switzerland or something and save themselves. They’d had enough. They were cracking.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And really the Germans were winning the air war. There was no doubt about it.
PJ: Yeah. If Hitler wasn’t such an idiot, he would have won.
AJ: He would have. He would have won. All he had to do was keep on going a little bit longer, you know. But anyway as a result of that I was pulled back to Britain some, a week, or ten days. I forget the length of time, later. And instead of being repatriated home immediately which was the usual thing the wonderful base commander, also an Australian. And that was —
RG: Don’t ask me what his name was. I can’t remember.
AJ: Binbrook was —
RG: This was the base commander not the squadron commander.
AJ: That’s right.
RG: Yes.
PJ: [unclear]
AJ: I was flying with the Australian commander at that time. I forget his name now. But the base commander was an Australian too.
PJ: Cowan. Wasn’t it? The base, not the base commander but Cowan.
AJ: No. Cowan was the guy who came in. His crew I finally picked up.
PJ: I can’t remember the name of that fellow. I met him at that —
AJ: No. Anyway he said Alex I’m going to ask you a pretty terrible thing. He said we now have, because of the losses being brought about by the jet aircraft which Churchill refused to allow our air force commander Butch Harris to try and describe to we, the crew because Churchill believed that we’d all surrender.
LD: So did you not —
RG: Did you know about those?
LD: You were not informed that these aircraft —
AJ: No. We were kept in the dark about these engineless things.
PJ: Aircraft.
AJ: That were shooting us down. It was deliberate by Churchill because he had no faith in Bomber Command. He hated the bloody air force. Anyway, he said, ‘I want you to stay here and to pick up the new squadron commander, Wing Commander Cowan.’ He had no experience anyway. He was barred from flying. Anyone above the rank of full squadron leader was barred from flying, because of our losses. And he said, ‘We can’t, we have his crew who were perfectly ready to take over, but they won’t have a pilot. We want you to volunteer to continue in action.’ I said, well I thought about it for about one second and said, ‘Yes, I’ll volunteer.’ So, I was appointed the pilot and commander of the new untested crew. Mainly Aussies. And —
RG: I wanted to ask. Can I just ask, how did that, so they worked up that they were the wing commander’s, Wing Commander Cowan’s crew. They’d worked up with him, trained with him and whatever. And then he goes and you, you jump in.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: How did it work out with them? How did you —
PJ: He’s still friendly with — there’s one in Melbourne.
AJ: Yeah. Well the camaraderie within the squadron was absolutely tremendous. Even though we were being shot to ribbons. And people respected me because they all believed I was dead. When I turned up [laughs] I just rescued my tin in the steel box of personal goods from the, that’s called the graveyard down in London. They used to take —
RG: Sorry, what was that? They used to take the stuff down to what was known as the graveyard.
AJ: When crews went missing or were killed in action. And there were many. Their personal belongings were generally put in a big steel trunk. Sent down to London to the, ‘dead meat factory.’
PJ: Then to be shipped home.
AJ: And then shipped home
RG: We were going to ask you about that if you don’t mind. The Committee of Adjustment term that we’ve heard which is very little information on.
PJ: Never heard of it.
LD: These were the people who picked up —
PJ: Oh yes.
RG: It’s an old term from the nineteenth century. It’s an old British army term and I’ve heard it in Bomber Command. That how, when a crew went missing, were killed that process of who, who did it. And it varied in different squadrons and stuff.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Who came and picked their kit up.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: And we’ve also heard about censoring. That they’d go through and —
AJ: It was the same committee that — I’ve heard of it. I don’t know much about their operations because they were — you didn’t want to know.
RG: No. No. You wouldn’t.
AJ: But they were the ones too who used to pick up the belongings of people who cracked up in combat. Many of us did, you know. Many, many guys would return and they’d be [pause] and they were sentenced. Sentenced. Think of the modern treatment of such people. LMF. Lack of moral fibre.
RG: Lack of moral fibre.
LD: That’s another —
AJ: That was the worst term in the air force.
LD: Yes. Yes.
AJ: Lack of moral fibre.
RG: So what happened, again LMF is naturally there is very little information because no one wants to —
LD: And what you read is so inconsistent.
RG: Yeah. And different squadrons, different groups seemed to do this different in different, well the Canadians did it differently from us.
AJ: That’s right. They all had their certain people that looked after that. And they were ostracised. It was almost too, too much to bear to talk to such people. You know, you’d be, even as an officer in the permanent quarters where my room were because I was a pretty senior officer, combat officer. And, you know, you’d be at breakfast or something after a raid or [pause] and, you know, ‘Where are they? What’s happened?’ And they these people would take over. And when you saw them I could recognise them, but they never socialised with any of us.
RG: Who were they?
AJ: I don’t know.
RG: Were they officers?
PJ: Were they part of the air force?
RG: Were they officers or were they —
PJ: Were they part of the air force or civilians?
AJ: Oh yes. They were air force guys.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: They would dress just like the rest of us but from memory now, that’s right, they had a tag. A tag up here and if you saw them we used to, well we had various words for them. Death heads or something or other. I forget now. But there was no camaraderie with such people. They were terrible around. They had an awful job to do.
RG: They did didn’t they.
AJ: But in my case, I got back. I take over Wing Commander Cowan’s crew and away we go. And from thereafter I think we did another ten or fifteen combat bombing trips. Some finished up in daylight with the American Forts. I admired them, the Yanks. Even though they were bombastic bastards [laughs] we used, we used to fight like hell in the pubs. They were always, we reckoned chasing our women. Our women. We used to call the ladies from Grimsby that we’d invite out to the officer’s mess, famous mess out there called the Village Inn, the Grimsby night fighters. For obvious reasons. But they were, they were lovely, lovely lasses. And strangely enough it wasn’t a sexual trend although that obviously went on. But it was, they were, they seemed to accept their role in a beautiful manner. They’d calm you down when you were dancing, and these are the memories now that are very strong in my mind.
RG: Yes.
AJ: Since the horrors and the trauma of my experience after my recent illnesses for some reason has faded away.
RG: Faded away.
AJ: And I am now touching ninety two and as Pauline says I have a, I don’t have the awful trauma. Only the funny things
RG: The good ones.
AJ: Of the Grimsby, of the Grimsby girls.
PJ: In your second stint, that was when you did Operation Manna.
AJ: Yeah, that’s interesting. As Pauline has just said. After [pause] no. Before the war finished the — a group of Germans and the whole of Belgium and Holland was grounded. It was sealed by Montgomery’s army. And Hitler being Hitler refused any suggestion that these people, that the German and there was a hell of a lot of Germans there, should surrender. And therefore the Red Cross and International Red Cross I think it was mainly who organised a cease fire in order that Lancasters, because of their great load carrying ability would be used to drop food to the starving Dutch.
PJ: Yeah. All the dykes had been busted.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: So Holland was all flooded so there was no production of food.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. It was impossible to get any other way.
AJ: That was amazing. I did about three. Three or four of those.
RG: That was amazing thing, wasn’t it?
AJ: And the worst thing about it was that there were only certain areas that you could drop this food and the stuff we were dropping, you know. Big two hundred pound bag of potatoes and bulky packets.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Of all sorts of food wired up in our own bomb bays. And we’d release those at about, to nearly two hundred mile an hour. We had to fly no higher than a thousand feet over all of the approaches to this area. And the German gunners were, this was unofficial trips.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: You could see, you could set the watches on the —
RG: 11 o’clock. We’ll, yeah, it’s over.
AJ: And we I remember so well the time when the plane in front of me in this great field that was up above the flood waters fence. And all around the fence would be the German troops keeping the starving, and they were starving.
RG: Yeah. Starvation.
AJ: Ordinary folk away. Well the plane in front dropped successfully and suddenly, terribly the German troops, they laid down their arms and raced to get the food. They were starving too.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: And then followed by the people. Can you imagine it? I’m approaching.
LD: Oh and you’re coming.
AJ: And suddenly dropped them as you came in.
LD: Carrying two hundred pounds of potatoes.
AJ: I’ve got to drop. I’ve got to drop. The plane is ready to drop. So I dropped my load and so help me God. You could see them. You know. if you get hit in the head with a two hundred pound bag of spuds at two hundred miles an hour.
RG: Two hundred miles an hour.
AJ: There’s not much of you left. Well I did about three. Three or four of those. And in there I have a plaque that was issued to those of us on Operation Manna. And on the way back, trying to recover our sanity we went on, going past these great windmills with great Lancasters — four engines. You approached the windmill [boom] and the wheels — vroom [laughs] We had photos of that which have gone missing now. That was Operation Manna. And then, after the war, some three days after the war, Churchill ordered the air force to provide a skilled crew. A pilot, with the facilities in this Lancaster for photography. For the record over all of Germany.
RG: The destructed. The destroyed cities. Yeah.
AJ: And hence my first long range. I was selected, and you had, I had on board about eleven or twelve senior people, photographers, ladies, WAAF chiefs. Some of them were very senior people. And at a thousand feet we flew all over Germany taking those. They were quite famous photographs.
PJ: These are the negatives we gave to the War Memorial last year.
AJ: The negatives we gave. We have the copy. Particularly that famous one.
RG: Of the bridge.
AJ: The bridge of Cologne.
AJ: Over Cologne. And the funniest thing of all I guess was the fact that those long trips the ladies of course, it wasn’t set up for ladies in a Lancaster.
LD: From what I’ve heard the elsan wasn’t very well set up for men either.
AJ: The elsan. I had strict instructions I gave to my rear gunner that he wasn’t to switch. I could sense when he moved his turret.
RG: Turret. Yeah.
AJ: I said, ‘You keep that bloody turret looking out.’ But a couple of times there I could sense what was going on. And he was laughing like hell there. So there was some funny things.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Then further on we joined the new force.
RG: Tiger Force.
AJ: Single Australians with very long, highly experienced crews.
PJ: Tiger Force.
AJ: Tiger Force. At the home of east, at East Kirkby which is famous anyhow.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And we started to bring back, we’d fly tremendous distances all over Europe doing various tasks to get experience for when we were to be based in Iwo Jima.
RG: In bombing Japan.
AJ: That had just been taken by the Yanks. To bomb Japan. Can you imagine these long range Lancs up against the Japanese Zeros defending their own land? Over Tokyo. But the worst thing about it was that we would not have enough fuel to return to Iwo Jima.
RG: So what was to happen? Land in China?
AJ: We were too overfly. Think of this for a crazy bloody.
RG: Planning.
AJ: Arrangements made by that idiot Churchill and others to overfly Tokyo in to deep Soviet Russia and to land at a field of opportunity.
LD: Oh because it would all just be sitting there.
AJ: There were no maps. We were just told that you overfly if you survive. You can overfly, land where you’ll be refuelled and rearmed and you could come back. There was no way we would come back. It was a flight to death. But that’s what we were up for. But before we got down on to that level we were, we did a lot of flying down to the south of Italy to the coast. Bari.
RG: Oh yeah.
AJ: Because that Bari became the central point for the collection of all the poor darned prisoners of war.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: From all around that area.
RG: From right up through Europe. Not just to Italy. Everywhere.
AJ: Down. Yeah. All the prisoners that were to be returned to Britain were to be, as far as possible collected from Bari.
RG: Brought back through Bari. Ok.
AJ: We’d fly down and bring them back.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Ten on each side of the Lancaster, strapped.
LD: Of course I’ve heard this, and I’ve wondered where they put them and how they put them.
AJ: Well that’s it because the Lanc became, of course almost unmanageable with twenty people. It’s centre of gravity was all over the place.
LD: Yes.
AJ: It was highly dangerous work.
LD: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: But we did quite a few of these trips and on one trip — this is quite a funny story really. We had realised and so had the people down in Bari that a nice little trade could be organised. We’d take down the, we’d bring back the prisoners but what do we do?
RG: Come back empty.
AJ: About taking them down because you can’t sort of turn up an opportunity to load up your Lanc bomb bay. In a station like Binbrook there were hundreds, literally hundreds of push bikes.
LD: Of course. Of course. Yes.
AJ: Pushbikes were, of course, used by everyone. When a crew went missing no one’s interested in the pushbikes. The bicycle dump was bigger than the bomb dump. And we, a lot of us got our little heads together and said if we take down bikes wired up in the bomb bay and then exchange them down there for fruit, Italian jewellery, you know. For all the goodies that were missing in England. Ah, great. So this trade started. Well we’d done quite a few of these trips bringing back the prisoners itself was —
RG: Key thing.
AJ: A very emotional experience. But mid-way through this exercise the bloody military police down in, our own coppers —
RG: Yeah. Yeah. The crushers.
AJ: Down in Bari. They had a racket or two going too and we were undercutting them, you know. And so they decided that they were going to stop us.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: By arresting a few of the crew and causing mayhem.
RG: You didn’t get arrested again did you Alex?
AJ: What happened was that I got, to there was about six or eight in this flight. I happened to be leading it, of Lancs from Binbrook with our bikes. And we’re flying at about fifteen thousand feet down the Med. We get a call from base saying, ‘Get rid of those bloody bikes. The cops are waiting for you in Bari.’ How do you get rid of bikes fifteen thousand feet over the Med? Obvious.
PJ: It is really.
AJ: I opened the bomb bays and wired them, and at my command, ‘Bombs away. Bikes away.’ And so that’s what happened. And can you imagine suddenly out of the [laughs] hundreds of bikes?
RG: You’ll see them down there on the floor of the Mediterranean there is all this piles of bikes.
AJ: That’s it. in the future, five thousand years away there will be some stupid palaeontologist saying these are unusual.
LD: There’ll be some child who was down on the beach that’s going, ‘Mum, can we go out and get some of those bikes that fell in to the sea?’ ‘Oh, you stupid boy.’
PJ: Wouldn’t believe it.
AJ: Oh dear. But when we got down there and the cops raced into the aircraft. Nothing there. Bomb doors open. Opened the bomb doors. Nothing. I can still see [laughs] they knew they’d been beaten.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Didn’t find anything.
LD: What did you do with those bloody bikes. What bikes?
RG: What bikes?
LD: They didn’t find anything else to arrest anybody for instead did they?
RG: I’ve just got this mental image of all these people riding pushbikes in these 1950s and ‘60s Italian movies.
PJ: That’s right.
RG: And they’re all RAF bikes.
PJ: Of course they had no transport so —
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: So there was some funny stories amongst the tragedies.
PJ: What else is there? I can’t think. Actually now there’s, in Lummen, where Alex came down.
RG: Sorry what was the name of that town again?
PJ: Lummen.
RG: Yeah. How do you spell it?
AJ: L U M M E N.
RG: Ok.
AJ: Lummen.
PJ: They now have a street, an Alexander Jenkins Street, Strasse in the new subdivision there.
RG: Oh truly. Oh wow.
PJ: Yeah. The mayor wrote last year.
AJ: Yeah. What happened was oh about 1983 or thereabouts.
PJ: It was ’83 because that was when I was going through those things for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
AJ: ’83. They, the local people in Lummen. The younger men and women who had no real experience of the war decided that they knew all of them now. They knew the history of that terrible night. The number of aircraft shot down over their, over their area on the night of the 20th.
PJ: Very close to the German border.
AJ: And they decided that they knew that there was somewhere in this rhododendron swamp. Beautiful rhododendron forest but there were bits of my aircraft that had been in that swamp. Had not been discovered and taken away in the great clean-up straight after the war had finished. And they were just resting in pieces until then. And a number of them, the patriots decided they’d find the remains of my Lanc. Which they did. They were amazing the way they did it. And anyway —
PJ: They didn’t find much.
AJ: No. They didn’t find much. The heavy undercarriage survived of course. A few other bits and pieces. So at about ‘83 this occurred, and they finally had got through the ID markings on the, on the remnants. They knew that it was a bomber from Binbrook. The records showed that that was the site of the Lanc. And they decided that they would try, they knew there was one survivor. The pilot.
PJ: They didn’t know that at the outset did they because that young, the young girl that looked after the graves, first of all they had all of you.
AJ: Oh yeah that’s right.
PJ: Lost.
AJ: It took a long time.
RG: For everyone.
PJ: For them all. And we met this young girl who, she was a twelve year old when she used to look after the graves.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Because they were buried in the village.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Now they’re in the war cemetery.
RG: War cemetery. Yeah.
PJ: But in the small war cemetery.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Not in any major ones.
AJ: No.
PJ: Because they said, you know, their our guys. So it’s a small war cemetery.
AJ: They decided that they would get this, these bits and pieces and build a memorial. And the identification — they searched everywhere. Records and so on to try and find the name and the whereabouts of the surviving pilot. Me. Well, officialdom, particularly in Australia and for good reasons you make at that time, you make an enquiry like that and — no comment. Because of the threat of retaliation and bribery and things. People getting even if they handed out that sort of information.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough.
AJ: Where Joe Blow was, who was doing this at that time in the war. Where is he now? I want to go over and shoot him.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: So they didn’t pass any info at all. They couldn’t get anywhere with it. But in any event, they finally did, through the university system. See, I was a professor in the, I was a foundation professor at the University of New South Wales and eventually also a professor in charge of the Department of Materials and Metallurgy at Sydney University. And Sydney, the university has this international academic thing over and they, apparently there was a publication in England about me.
PJ: Well there —
AJ: And they found me.
PJ: Apparently, yeah, apparently, there’s a university magazine that goes out and this fellow in Belgium put an ad in this university magazine seeking the whereabouts of this Alexander Jenkins.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: And Alex had already retired so the registrar of the Sydney Uni rang Alex and said, ‘I don’t know what you’ve been up to.’ And also the Department of Foreign Affairs got in touch.
AJ: Yeah. They said, ‘What have you been up to? You’re wanted.’
RG: Again. Get stuffed.
AJ: Well we were —
PJ: It was.
AJ: Planning to go back at that stage.
PJ: Well, I was working and when I married Alex he said I’d like you to retire in five years. So, ok, because he didn’t know what he was going to be doing. So by the time I retired he was on every rotten board in the country and he was never at home so I could have killed him. But that’s beside the point. So the people I worked for, they, they knew I was going to retire so this was ’86. It must have been. And they said, ‘Look you’ve done a good job for us. We think you should get a new car. We’re suggesting you get BMW and we suggest you go to Munich to pick it up.’ So I was quite happy to do that. So we knew we were going to be in Europe. And we took a house about fifteen kilometres out of Florence for about six weeks or something. So we had all this in place. Well then when they finally got hold of Alex we said we could be there etcetera and so forth. So we went, and we drove into this town and there were thousands of people and Alex said, ‘It must be market day.’ It wasn’t market day it was us and him.
LD: It was Alex Jenkins day.
PJ: And it was incredible.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Did you go by car and wave like the queen?
PJ: It was a big deal.
AJ: It was a big deal.
PJ: The head of the NATO forces for Belgium was there. Colonel [unclear] And there was the Australian Ambassador to France, I think he was. And there was the British Ambassador to somewhere or other. They were all there and it was interesting and we, and Colonel [unclear] said to me they were going to unveil a memorial to Alex’s crew.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Outside the church. So, and Colonel [unclear] he said, because it was a Flemish area. There was a book written about Alex, but it was in Flemish. Have you ever tried to get Flemish translated in this country? It’s almost impossible.
RG: I know one person who can do it.
PJ: Well, I found one person who could do it and she was in Adelaide. And it was interesting. My daughter was working for the Commonwealth Bank and the girl at the desk next to her, she was saying, because Alex was coming up for his eightieth birthday and I was trying to find some way to get this translated so he could, so that I could give it to him for his eightieth. Well, so Louise was helping me. And somehow, she said something to this girl and she said mum, she’s a translator. She’s married to an Australian but she’s from the Flemish region of Belgium. Anyhow, Colonel [unclear] said it in Flemish and then he said it in English and so on. And there was a guard of honour drawn up for Alex and they were all the Resistance fighters. And they were all old, and they were gnarled and they were a tough looking bunch. And they made him an honorary member, his medal’s in there, of the resistance. Well then Colonel [unclear] had said to me, ‘Be prepared for a bit of a surprise.’ So they go through all this and then they gave him a flypast of F16s.
RG: Wow.
PJ: They came over the top of the church.
RG: Yeah. To recognise.
PJ: It was quite amazing. It was a very emotional day. We’ve been over a couple of times since. But —
AJ: It was quite something. I’m standing there and in front of the dais and the colonel and there’s all the Resistance. Wartime blokes. God [laughs] they were a rough bunch with their berets and so on and when he said that there would be a celebration and he didn’t really describe it except that I thought, you know this is something to do with this air force business.
PJ: No. He didn’t tell you. He told me. You didn’t know anything about it.
AJ: No. I didn’t. And anyway, the, I’m standing there and just waiting. And, in the background, I heard vroom vroom vroom and I thought, My God. that’s a bloody aircraft on full power, flaps. It’s a, there’s a word for it in some tactical approach. Supersonic aircraft flying as slow as possible with flaps down.
RG: Flying down.
AJ: And undercart still retracted.
RG: Ok.
AJ: But flying as low and as slow.
RG: Slow as possible.
AJ: It takes tremendous power for a plane like that to do that.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: And they were revving the engines. Vroom. Vroom. Vroom.
RG: Virtually standing on the tail. Yeah.
AJ: I thought, oh my God, I think I know what might be coming because that’s the first part of a ceremonial, highly meaningful but seldom performed performance by aircraft in the honour of a fallen or a number of fallen comrades. Prince of Wales Feathers it called. Anyway, sure enough and low on the horizon was that. How many were there? About six weren’t there? I think so.
PJ: No. I think there was four or something [unclear] to make the Prince of Wales Feathers.
AJ: No. Six it would have been.
PJ: Anyhow, whatever.
AJ: Anyway just over the top just above the ground really and I’m looking at that and I thought I know what’s coming now because what happens is that they move away. That’s meant to be the sound of the human heart.
LD: Yes. Yes.
AJ: Vroom vroom vroom. Then they move away. Get out, away from the crowd and everything else. They reassemble and this time —
RG: Come back.
AJ: They come in with full power as an arrow group.
LD: Yeah.
AJ: And then vroom just above and straight up and then they.
LD: That’s where they get the name the name the Prince of Wales Feathers. Just spreading.
AJ: Prince of Wales Feathers.
LD: Spreading like the feathers.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Yeah. The beating of the human heart first and then the departure of the soul to heaven.
RG: Yeah. Ok. I didn’t realise the significance.
PJ: These, we were guests of this —
AJ: Gosh it was so impressive.
LD: What a wonderful thing for your crew isn’t it.
AJ: I had tears in my eyes.
PJ: The pilots took us to dinner. Their wives took us to dinner that night and one of the wives was saying that she, she, they used to hide under the table during the war. And she said her mother used to say she could hear the Lancasters going over and she’d say, ‘There goes the sound of freedom.’ So —
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: She’s but she —
AJ: What a story that —
PJ: This Colonel [unclear] was the air attaché to the Belgian Embassy.
AJ: He was a wonderful bloke.
PJ: Embassy in Washington. And his wife told the story that when they went over there they had three daughters and the youngest, the littly really spoke no English at all. The other two were bi lingual. Anyhow she gets her there and she didn’t know whether to send her to school or not and so on. So she sends her to kindy and when she gets home her mother said, ‘How was it? How did you like American kindy?’ She said, ‘Mum, it’s quite good but, ‘she said, ‘You know none of the kids could understand a word I said.’ So she said it took her a while. But they were delightful people. When we were there a couple of years ago he was too ill to meet us but no this first trip we went one of the, oh well there’s a, there’s a little memorial. Alex has photos there and it’s made of the, the what do you call the big straps that the wheels go in.
AJ: The oleo legs.
PJ: Ok. And they made a chapel of them.
AJ: And then on top there’s this —
PJ: But then they, and there was an ink drawing of Alex falling out of the sky with his parachute on fire and so on. And there were a whole stack of kids. There was just so many people there. And I tried to, I was saying to these, trying to explain to these kids that that old guy, he didn’t have a beard then but that old guy over there was the guy falling out of the sky. They looked at him. They looked at it. But this bloke from the Australian Embassy had very kindly brought a pocket full of little gold kangaroos, you know so they dispensed these out to the kids.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: And they thought it lovely fun. But at the same time there was a dinner that night a reception that afternoon and a fellow gave Alex, this father and his son came out and the son spoke very good English as they all do. The father wasn’t [unclear] but he had a gold watch he had which belonged to one of Alex’s crew and he asked if we could try and return it to the family. Well I was still working, and I tried and as Alex said earlier you can’t get any information. People don’t give you any information. So when I retired I couldn’t find out where this guy had come from or anything, by the name of Campbell. Anyhow, when I retired I tried again and I struck. I told the lass this story, you know, what was going on and she was quite helpful and said he came from Mudgee. So we did some research. It was very hard. You know, it was a long time ago and people change and die and move on and so on.
LD: Yes.
PJ: Anyhow, we eventually found his three sisters and we gave them back the watch that apparently their mother had given to their brother for his twenty first birthday and so we were able to give them that.
AJ: By the way we have been back several times and I think the last time that we were in contact the people the people in Lummen because we are, we have the freedom of the city and so on.
RG: That’s one place in the world you’re never going to be arrested. You know that [laughs]
AJ: Yeah. That’s right.
PJ: The last time we went —
AJ: Well, the last time we were there they had the signs up.
PJ: But we said, ‘Very low key please. Very low key.’ So we arrived, well first of all they picked us up from the railway station in Brussels. And they described, there would be three guys and they described themselves and their description was absolutely spot on. There was a short guy, a tall guy and a fat guy. Three guys. So they picked us up and we drive into town and there was all these, “Welcome Alexander Jenkins.”
AJ: And since then —
LD: So it was lucky it was low key was it?
AJ: They have, there was a big estate.
PJ: Yeah. Well as I said your name.
AJ: That’s been formed. The principal avenue was named after me. Alexander Jenkins Strasse.
PJ: Strasse but they, you know we were.
AJ: So I’ve got my name in that part of Belgium.
PJ: And we had a reception. And all these kids. A group of kids I think they were probably eleven. Ten or eleven. Something like that. And their job was to draw the story they knew and to draw what they thought of this fellow coming out of the plane. Well, they all stood there literally and came forward and presented Alex with their, their drawings. Which was all very nice. But the only thing, you know, because I worked in the not for profit sector and I used to bring people from overseas as speakers I was very conscious of the luggage that people had to take back, but jeez you know, when we were there last time they presented Alex with a beautiful crystal vase about so high and about so big with everything engraved on it. It weighed three tonnes.
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: And how on earth we were going to get this home, but we did but, no its —
AJ: Anyway that’s the —
PJ: That’s his story. Is there anything else you want to know about?
AJ: That’s my story basically. I know I’ve rambled.
RG: No, that’s, that’s fine.
LD: Oh no. No.
AJ: But the funny parts about it are when I think the last couple of weeks, so we went down to this function which we generally go to once a year.
LD: Yes.
AJ: Of the 460. Under G for George.
PJ: The 460 under the wings —
LD: I was going to ask you to talk about your connection with G for George.
AJ: Yes. Well G for George is of course a Lancaster from 460 Squadron. One of the most weird aircraft we ever had in the squadron. Long before my time. Ninety eight trips. Combat trips. And it’s still in one piece. The C flight, there were various flights on 460 Squadron. A B C D. Twenty six aircraft actually to the squadron, six commence of the four and two spare, and C flight always has G for George, And I finished as the command of C flight of 460 Squadron. And therefore, and I’ve flown of course during the war when this one had returned to Australia. Peter Issacson and others for the, brought that plane back for the — raised funds at the time. I’ve flown G for George. G10, G11, G12 because the average life of the Lanc was only three months.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Before it would be shot down. So I’ve flown quite a few G for George’s but I’m also the ex-commander of that one, C flight which is —
PJ: The one there in Canberra is the one that flew under the Harbour Bridge.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. On that.
PJ: When Peter Issacson was flying.
AJ: They let me in to that aircraft as a special dispensation.
PJ: This was last Friday.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Last Friday. I’ve often said to Pauline and others I’d just love to, once before I go to —
PJ: I’d heard —
RG: Seriously.
AJ: To get back in to my plane.
LD: That would be a wonderful experience.
AJ: It was so lovely.
PJ: I’d heard that you could do this. So when we were talking about taking stuff down, well first of all to give something to the War Memorial isn’t that simple.
RG: No.
PJ: You’ve got to go through a terrible lot of rigmarole. They don’t want you to bring stuff there and so on. I was talking I just left a message and this young man rang me back. And I said look we’re going to be there. I said, ‘My husband is elderly. It doesn’t matter if we bring the stuff. You have a look.’ ‘No. We’re not interested. We’ve already got that.’ ‘That’s fine. But at least then we know.’ And I said, ‘While I’m calling you I understand that if you were a pilot of a Lancaster you can have a sneaky inside.’ And he said, ‘Oh I’ve never heard of that.’ Anyhow, they rang back and said there was this special thing etcetera etcetera. So, there was a message waiting for us when we got to Canberra last week and they said to ring so we rang, and they said well we’re not supposed to. We’ve had to get authority from the highest but as a very special thing and the big thing is apparently a couple of years ago there was an old pilot was up in there and he had a bad fall and severely gashed his head.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: So now it’s totally taboo.
LD: And it’s a good long way up.
PJ: Yeah. So what they had there was two delightful young men. One went in front and one went behind and they had one, of course they used those ladders, you know, those wood ladders, flat on the top.
AJ: My ambition was to get in.
PJ: Anyhow, he got there.
AJ: I knew I wouldn’t be able to get and sit in the front, in the pilots seat because it’s all wired up with dummies, but what I wanted to do, and any Lanc crew member would understand what I’m saying. I wanted to get over the main spar.
RG: Yes. Yeah.
AJ: That main spar was the continuation of the wing structure through the middle of the plane. It used to cause tremendous problems to us. Particularly if you were in combat and you needed to bail out.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Oh. It was awkward. Anyway, I got in, struggled along the plane and I came to the main spar. And I think the bloke said, ‘Do you think you can?’ Because I’ m pretty weak. ‘Do you think you can get over there?’ I said, ‘I’ll do this or die.’ And I got over it.
LD: So does it look like, I’ve seen people climb over it. It doesn’t look like there’s much room.
AJ: Oh yeah. Once I was over there I could see the cockpit and everything else.
PJ: He was a very happy chappy.
AJ: I was a happy chappy and I came back over again. Top of this great ladder and I looked down and opposite in the recess were the two aircraft. One of them the ME262.
RG: Oh yes. Of course there is.
AJ: The one that shot me down.
LD: Yes. Of course you were —
PJ: That’s right.
AJ: And the other was what we called the chase me Charlies. They were the rocket ships that used to go.
RG: ME 163.
AJ: Straight up. And the trick about them was that they had this great cannon which if you were hit with that you didn’t, what I got, blown to bits. You go, it goes up and then it levels out. It levelled out in the stream and selected a target and that was the end of the target. But when you could see it going up we thought oh my God, you know. You watch. You watch. If you see a, the thing stop and then the trail continue you breathed a sigh of relief because it’s going away from you.
RG: Yes.
AJ: Because of the jet at the back. But if it went up.
RG: And vanished.
AJ: And there was darkness it was. ‘Oh my God.’
RG: Coming towards.
AJ: It’s coming to us.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: So those two planes. I looked down and the blokes with me knew what I was thinking.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I said, ‘Yeah, I remember those two,’
PJ: Are you going to see David Griffin?
RG: No. We haven’t been able to get back in contact with him. I’ve tried ringing all week.
LD: We did want to try and see him.
RG: And his phone’s been ringing out. He may have gone away. I’m not too sure.
PJ: He’s got a daughter here. David is ninety five or ninety six.
RG: Yeah. So ninety six. Yeah.
AJ: Very weak.
LD: We were kind of a bit concerned that the phone just kept —
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Well do you want me to ring a friend who is quite close to them. Literally living close but they have a lot to do with David. He also was a headmaster of a school but David was the headmaster of Orange High. But if you like I can just find out if they know whether he’s there.
RG: That would be nice Pauline. Yeah. Because we thought what we might do is we’ve got his address. We might just pop around because I said we’d come today.
PJ: Yeah.
RG: We hadn’t organised a time And I haven’t been able to do that, so I thought we’d pop in and say look we’re —
PJ: His daughter’s here. You had no trouble with the Belubula River. There was a flood. Did you come down through, down it.
RG: No. It’s up but it was no trouble though.
PJ: And where is it in Cowra that you like to stay?
RG: There’s a — you know where the airport is? And then the Grenfell Road. The road that just goes up and up
PJ: Oh yes. Yes.
RG: Well just before Grenfell Road there’s a little road called Back Creek Road that goes back the other way.
PJ: Yeah. Back by the racecourse or whatever it is. Is there a racecourse out there? Yeah.
LD: Yes. There is.
RG: Is there? Oh. As you go down Back Creek Road there’s through a bunch of vineyards and there’s a little vineyard down there.
PJ: Oh yeah.
RG: And there’s a little cottage in the vineyard right up against the creek which is now just about running a banker.
PJ: That’s right.
RG: And it’s beautiful. It’s just a quiet little spot.
PJ: I went, I went to boarding school in Cowra, so —
RG: Oh ok.
AJ: Well, that’s been a rambling thing. I’m sorry.
RG: Can I just ask you. You said something and I’ve kind of lost context of what but it was to do with jinx. That’s right. The second dickie runs, and the second dickie runs , and you said you hated them because the jinx thing. Did you have a talisman or a token or anything that you — ?
AJ: No. I did not and a lot of guys, you’re quite right, a lot of guys swore by them. See it’s strange you know. You were a very old man at twenty five in Bomber Command.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Very few guys older than twenty five. It was a business for very young and hopefully very fit. Yes, we were very fit. Even though we drank like fish. The one reason I have never smoked in my life I can put down to my service as a Lancaster bomber bloke because we drank, naturally. And we all, we had very strict rules though. We used to police ourselves. We didn’t need the service police who used to be around for all sorts of reasons on a squadron.
RG: Yeah. I know.
AJ: They used to pick up every now and then. Spies and so on.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And we drank, and I found that if I had a cigarette then nothing would happen on the ground but as soon as I used to have to go on to the oxygen mask which is at eight thousand feet, or —
LD: Yes.
AJ: I’d give the command to, ‘Masks on.’ I’d become violently ill. Now, if you’ve got to sit in the pilot’s seat strapped in, its bad enough to have a wee because you couldn’t get out.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And the poor bomb aimer, you used to have to butter him up because he used to carry a peach tin or urine bucket they called it and you’d have to struggle and have a widdle if you could into there. And he’s down there and you’re up so sometimes a splash [laughs]
LD: He’d want you flying straight and level while you did that.
AJ: That’s one thing. But to be absolutely sick in your oxygen mask.
LD: Yeah.
LD: Which you couldn’t take off.
LD: Yes. Yes.
AJ: And spend eight, ten hours.
LD: Oh God.
AJ: So naturally I never smoked.
LD: No.
And it’s served me so well in my life.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Being a non-smoker.
RG: Yeah. I agree. I was smoker.
AJ: I wouldn’t say that I was a non-drinker but I’ve cut that down now, obviously on medical advice to just red wine.
PJ: They don’t, they don’t, haven’t heard that he was going away or anything but he’s terribly deaf so —
RG: He may just have not heard the phone. Yeah.
PJ: So I’ll give you the address.
RG: I’ve got that. I’ve got his address.
PJ: Got it. 90 Gardener Road.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: You know Gardener Road.
RG: Oh we use the sat nav. It’ll get us there.
PJ: So I suggest you go and knock on his door.
RG: Yeah. That’s what we thought we’d do because he said he’d written a book which has never been published.
PJ: Oh yes.
RG: He’s got the manuscript and Lucie checked. Because I wrote a book about a friend of mine’s father who was in the 2nd machine gun, 1st Machine Gun Battalion during the war.
PJ: Oh yes.
RG: So, and it’s just a little personal thing for her.
PJ: Yeah.
RG: But Lucy checked with the National Library and they said yes, they’d be happy to take a copy of that.
PJ: Oh yeah.
RG: And a copy of David’s if it’s, providing it’s typed. And if not, we can do that for him if he wants.
AJ: Because he’s an English fellow who was in the RAF.
PJ: But he’s, he’s very deaf. He almost yells. He has good days and bad days. Some days he’s not terribly with it and sometimes he’s fine.
RG: When I called him, you know, he said, ‘Oh look I don’t know.’ He said, ‘I’ve done a few of these interviews I don’t think I could contribute any more,’ and then an hour and a half later I was still trying to get off the phone [laughs]
AJ: [laughs] Yeah.
PJ: He’s a bit of a hoot you know. He comes. Well the people I’ve just spoken to, Bill he won’t wear — because he’s got a service medal but he did, because he didn’t, he was too young. Bill is just ninety. He was too young to actually, he was in the air force, but never got anywhere.
RG: Didn’t go on ops. Yeah.
PJ: He said, ‘I’m too embarrassed to wear the medal I’ve got.’ Whereas David comes, and he has every conceivable pin that he’s ever got, and said. Well the Russians do.
RG: Yeah. Or the Americans. Oh yeah.
PJ: All the bits and pieces. But no, Actually one of my nephews was in the navy. He went through [unclear]
RG: What was his name, just for interest sake?
LD: My brother was at [unclear]
PJ: Was he?
LD: Yes.
PJ: Well me nephew is now, because he is exactly twenty years younger than me. So, we share a birthday so he must be sixty three. But —
RG: Well that’s almost my age. What was his name. We were in at the same time.
PJ: Mark Dowd.
RG: Do you know what he did?
PJ: Yes. He was a diver.
RG: Oh I didn’t know any divers really. Yeah.
PJ: And it was interesting. It was very interesting because you know there was something like twenty of them in this diving class for starters. So I think there was twenty one or something finished.
RG: Very few get through.
PJ: They were either psychologically unsuited. Physically unsuited. There were a few deaths because of accidents and so on but the navy did Mark a great service because he was [unclear] whatever he was. He went to Vietnam. I think they had to make sure there were no mines. They had to clear.
RG: Under the ships.
PJ: Under on the ships and so on. But then he came back and started his own diving business. I don’t mean sort of leisure. It’s like —
RG: Professional diving.
PJ: Cables and this sort of thing. Dams.
RG: They were very well trained. The navy divers were very extremely well trained.
PJ: I’d say Mark has done very well. The navy did him a big favour but no, so his two sons. Neither went into the navy. One’s an engineer. The other one is doing something. I think science at CSU so, not CSU ANU, in Canberra. Alright. Ok.
LD: Just a couple of really short things.
AJ: Yes, love.
LD: One is do you know what a command bullseye is?
AJ: A command.
LD: A command bullseye.
AJ: Command bullseye.
LD: That’s in the diary that I have and it’s from the context it seems to me like it’s the, it’s like the kind of last exercise you do at the OTU before you go on ops. So, you know ,you go out, you fly at night. But I just haven’t actually been able to find the term anywhere.
RG: [unclear] crew, they did, “Did their command bullseye today” was pretty all what they said and they went to London.
LD: Yeah, they went to London.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: They did it over London. But other crews we’ve heard of doing it over France as well.
AJ: No. I don’t think I came across that.
LD: It’s alright. I know It could have even been a local term.
RG: Well Ken was a little, a fraction before you. he went down in December ‘43 and I noticed that terms and practices and things came and went.
AJ: Oh they sure did.
RG: Yeah. There was no consistency.
AJ: I went to Lindholme — and in the final set up. Yeah. Command bullseye. No.
LD: No. That’s fine.
RG: Might have been a local.
LD: Yeah. And just the other thing. I don’t know how you would feel about this but I, in Katoomba I met a man who was busking. He had the most beautiful voice. This baritone and he was busking in a shopping centre. And he was so well-presented. Anyway, I got to talking to him and he was from Dresden.
AJ: Oh dear. Came from Dresden.
LD: Yeah.
RG: Yes.
LD: He was born and grew up Dresden. Middle aged man.
AJ: Oh dear.
LD: And he busks as a professional and he said he busks in Dresden. And he said he goes to the old city and he sings to the old people. And I thought that was really lovely that —
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
LD: You know, that he, you know this is his contribution.
PJ: Well the world moves on. I mean this is —
AJ: I have a horror.
LD: No. No. I mean he sings to the people.
PJ: Yes.
AJ: In relation to Dresden no man who bombed Dresden will, he will never be the same because it was such an awful set up in execution that, you know it scarred any conscience. And the worst thing about it was that it was specifically ordered by Winston Churchill to impress Stalin. And when the British public quite rightly revolted in revulsion even in the wartime and admittedly there was some technical reasons why Dresden had to be bombed because they were concentrating German troops and so on there. But Churchill just wiped his hands. He said, ‘I never.’ He blamed Sir Arthur Harris. Better known as Butch Harris. Sir Arthur Harris never, was never recognised except just before his death. And above all Churchill was so furious with the outcry that in blaming Sir Arthur he never forgot that Bomber Command, in his view needed to be brought to heel. And in that way, I don’t know if you know that story that when the great Victory Parade was organised Bomber Command was the only command refused permission to march in the Victory Parade, and yet Bomber Command was the only service for quite a while that was able to take the —
RG: To Germany. Yeah.
AJ: Oh God. We have the clasp. Have you ever seen that clasp that was awarded?
RG: No. No. I haven’t. No.
AJ: I’ll show you. The clasp was for those in Bomber Command.
PJ: Do you want your medal?
AJ: Yeah. Just the main medal because the other one hasn’t got it.
PJ: It’s not exactly a big deal.
AJ: The British government, queen and parliament eighteen months ago passed a motion of condolence and regret and apology to Bomber Command for the insult delivered to us in the peace. The processions etcetera and by command of the government and the queen a special clasp, a gold clasp was awarded to those of us who served in Bomber Command. When the papers came here and to my colleagues and so on almost to a man, here in Australia we initially refused. In fact I was ready —
PJ: That’s all it is. That’s the bar.
RG: Bomber Command.
AJ: Ready to rip it up. Put it in the application envelope and send it back.
RG: Send it back.
AJ: You know, with the words, ‘Get stuffed,’ but I had second thoughts.
PJ: It was interesting, like last Friday we were at this thing and there’s all these young people there.
RG: It is late but it’s the least they can do now.
PJ: Twenty six or something but every time they go away they get a medal.
RG: It is recognition finally isn’t it? It’s late and it’s long overdue but —
PJ: Always. Every one’s is a different tour of duty, so.
LD: Yeah.
AJ: They’re campaign medals.
PJ: They’ll have five or six medals and they’re about twenty five and, ‘Where did you get all them?’ ‘Oh well, you know I’ve been to Afghanistan. I’ve been to Iraq.’ Or something. But anyhow.
RG: Yeah. There is that.
PJ: Did you know, I’m trying to think? What’s, what’s the naval bloke here. Harris, Harris?
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: Harris.
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: His wife’s name is —
AJ: I can’t remember.
PJ: He was actually the naval attaché to the [unclear] of Paris. What’s his name? I saw him on Anzac Day. Kim. And he’d be older than you.
AJ: Not many. Not many people.
PJ: I was one of eight. And there was a boy, then six girls and then a boy. So the three youngest girls that’s me, my sister. Monica and my sister Dot. We’re the only survivors. But we did very well because until the last two years. My younger brother died, I don’t know probably fifteen, twenty years ago. And my elder sister died when she was only about fifty one but the rest of them, they’ve all been well in to their eighties. I’m eighty three. The next one’s eighty four and the next one’s eighty five.
AJ: You don’t look eighty-three.
PJ: Well thank you. In a good light.
AJ: Now I’m getting nice.
RG: Indeed. Alex. One other question I’d like to ask. VE Day. What was —
AJ: VE day.
RG: Do you have any remembrance of that? Do you remember it?
AJ: Yes. Yes and no. VE day the crew and I were in London. Naturally. I think we all descended on it, and I was actually, I’d been somewhere around Australia House in the morning, early. And they had up on the thing a little notice that guys from certain squadrons and so on represent for, and they had a sort of a bus, open topped bus and I put my name down for 460. I was the one who was chosen to sit on the bus and we got very close, you know, to the royal family. Waving away. And the celebrations though. The Aussies had a number of bars whose names now I forget but we, we descended on the bar in this particular place and we’d actually used the time and time again with the darts that they had for the dart board. We, after a celebration or a particular bomb raid that had gone well and, you know we were proud of it we’d put a few details and twing.
RG: Threw them up on the ceiling.
AJ: Anyway, we decided that they should come down.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And so we got ladders and things and I remember being fully inebriated trying to get up these ladders to pull darts out of the roof.
PJ: It’s a wonder you survived all the things you got up to.
AJ: Well, I mean basically we were young and stupid.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Yeah. So VE day was quite a day.
RG: I had to ask because the chap in Canberra Arthur Louden we said to him you know where you on VE day when the war ended. He said I was in bed with the wife up in Scotland. Someone knocked on the door and said, ‘The war’s over.’ I thought, good. And went back to bed again.
AJ: Oh dear that last raid that our squadron was involved in on Berchtesgaden. Hitler’s retreat. We blew the side off the bloody mountain. 460 Squadron was involved in it. It was Anzac Day. I remember that. Anzac Day they blew the side off the bloody mountain. When Pauline and I went back there I remember somewhere. We looked across, ‘I blew the side off that mountain’.
LD: ‘See that landslip there. I did that.’ Wow.
PJ: It’s interesting. I think it’s a shame that more, whilst still there’s people like Alex around that school kids aren’t given more information about the Second World War.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: At the present time of course it’s a hundred years —
AJ: That’s a moot question.
PJ: Yeah. But at the present time it’s all a hundred years of course of the First World War and so on.
AJ: The First World War.
PJ: But they don’t get a lot of indigenous history in school but very little about the Second World War.
AJ: Yeah. It is a shame. I’m ambivalent about that.
PJ: You know it’s a bit like —
AJ: I don’t know whether it’s good or not.
PJ: I don’t know if you have children, grandchildren or whatever, but, you know kids today like I said to me granddaughter who will turn up in a few minutes, ‘What are you going to do this year?’ You know. She said, ‘Well, grandma, I can’t decide whether I’ll go to Japan or Italy again this year.’ She went to Italy last year. But she’s never been to Cooper’s Creek or Cameron’s Corner or out in to the outback of Australia or where the various explorers went or even around here which was Mitchell’s territory. You know, she knew nothing about it. I do think it’s a shame. I think there should be more of, yes ok the indigenous. My next-door neighbour, his daughter married an indigenous, and. I keep saying, ‘Don’t blame me I, my I had three Italian and one French grandparent so it’s nothing to do with me,’ but —
LD: It’s a question of getting the whole story isn’t it?
PJ: But how do they ever give you the whole story?
LD: And not, you know, eschewed to one side.
PJ: But we’ll become so politically correct.
LD: Yes.
PJ: That it’s ridiculous and —
LD: My daughter went to Munich.
PJ: Oh yes.
LD: Last year. A couple of years ago. Whenever it was, Brother in law was married in Norway so they did all that. And she came back, and she said, ‘Oh mum. Munich’s beautiful.’ And then she said to me, ‘Did you know it was bombed during the war?’ I thought, ‘Hello.’ Would you like to tell? I could tell you, ‘I could tell you the name of people who did this if you like Polly.’
PJ: It’s very interesting.
LD: And I was just gobsmacked that my daughter who I thought was.
PJ: Yeah. But they don’t.
LD: She’s not a silly girl.
PJ: No. But it’s not, it’s not a part of their scene. It’s a bit like oh well, you know once again I’m not indigenous bashing but alright so the indigenous were here. So Captain Cook arrived so they established colonies etcetera, etcetera [unclear] I think was the first bod that arrived up on the West Australian coast, but yeah. Like, who’s going to grab England? Who are you going to go back to? The Gauls?
RG: Well exactly yeah. Yeah.
PJ: Or France or anywhere.
RG: I’ve got, I’ve got a Norwegian skin problem. So where did my family come? We’re from the north of England, ok.
AJ: Oh yeah.
RG: Originally.
LD: With the Vikings.
PJ: So it’s crazy you know.
RG: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AJenkinsAE160709
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Alexander Elliott Jenkins
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
02:00:55 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending OH summary
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rob Gray
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-09
Description
An account of the resource
Alexander Elliott Jenkins grew up in Melbourne, Australia and joined the Air Force aged eighteen. He flew operations as a pilot with 460 Squadron from RAF Binbrook. His aircraft was shot down by a Me 262 over occupied Belgium.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Belgium
Great Britain
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
460 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
Cook’s tour
final resting place
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Me 262
memorial
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
pilot
RAF Binbrook
shot down
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3438/PJohnsonGL1703.2.jpg
b0e04e09829fa1165d2691d7c4cc044c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3438/AJohnsonGL170801-02AV.1.mp3
eb39e14f9d84e850e2bbb56162504c34
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Johnson, Johnny
George Johnson
G L Johnson
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Squadron Leader George Leonard ‘Johnny’ Johnson MBE (1921 - 2022). Johnny Johnson flew operations as a bomb aimer with 97 Squadron from RAF Woodhall Spa and with 617 Squadron from RAF Scampton. On 16/17 May 1943 he took part in Operation Chastise to attack German dams with bouncing bombs. He served in the RAF until 1962 and then had a career in education. He was given an honorary doctorate by the University of Lincoln in 2017.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-01
2015-03-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Johnson, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GJJ: On 106 Squadron was known as the arch bastard.
[Laughter]
Other: Good. [pause] That part I got on camera.
DE: I did press record before.
HH: We were told a very funny story about how Gibson and his new wife booked into some inn in Lincolnshire on the night of their wedding and they had this rare, rare commodity of smoked salmon and they handed it to somebody who was kitchen staff to put it, to serve it up and it came all fried [laughter] And he was apparently absolutely livid that the smoked salmon had been fried.
Other: You would be slightly upset, wouldn’t you?
HH: Someone had told me that story.
GJJ: I gather she was quite a lady too. She was one of the Windmill Dancers, wasn’t she? I think.
[pause]
Other: I must [pause] Ok.
[pause]
Other 2: May I take it out? May I take it out?
DE: Can he, can you remove that thing behind you?
[pause]
Other: Ok.
GJJ: How tall are you?
Other 2: Six two.
GJJ: Have you stopped growing?
Other 2: Not yet.
[Laughter]
Other 2: Ok. Right.
[pause]
Other 2: Ok.
[pause]
Other 2: Ready to go.
Other: Ok.
Other 2: Switched off.
DE: Switched off?
Other 2: Ok.
HH: Do you want me to come and hold that?
[Noise in background]
DE: That’s just to make you jump.
[laughter]
GJJ: The last time that happened I had a coffee and dozed off. The telephone rang. Ahh all down my trousers.
DE: Oh dear.
Other: That’ll teach you.
DE: Yeah. Johnny, I wonder if you could tell me what your feelings were, what your thoughts were when the Dam Busters film came out?
GJJ: Some of it has to be disappointment. I’m afraid the author didn’t get everything quite as right as he might have done. He didn’t mention the Sorpe at all. And the film was based on his book. Didn’t mention the Sorpe at all, either in the introduction or the attack on the Sorpe. So as far as that was concerned we had done nothing at all. I was amazed, I saw recently, saw a copy again where Gibson is looking at one of these now manufactured bombsights on the, on his desk. They didn’t exist. At least as far as I’m aware they didn’t exist. I think the only one that he really accredited to the squadron was that of Dave Maltby’s. His father was headmaster of a big school and I think he had it made. I’m not sure. I know it does say on the thing as used by Flight Lieutenant David Maltby’s crew. That one had done the circle. And Fred Bateman who recently was committed to two years in jail for basically stealing people’s logbooks more than anything else. He auctioned that particular one and I think he made something like forty thousand pounds. Where he got it from I don’t know but it was supposed to have gone back to the family. But these things now have appeared quite frequently in all sorts of areas. I have, I signed two for Nigel the other day. They’re both going to IBCC I think. But, no the other thing about Paul Brickhill is that I know that Johnson is a popular name . Notice I say popular, not common but he managed to get Ted Johnson, flight lieutenant on Joe’s crew and me on Johnson’s crew in the crew list that he produced. I was looking through quickly his latest book in which he deals with the squadrons throughout the war and when he’s talking about the attack on the Sorpe, McCarthy made three attempts and then gave it up. Where he got his [mentions?] from I don’t know. I would have to say that I think the greatest author is John Sweetman. And the thing I like about John is that whatever he’s writing about he researches it thoroughly and then he just writes what he’s found in his research. He doesn’t say this should have happened, that should have happened or could have happened or might have happened. Doesn’t believe in that at all. So, what he produces ultimately is a very factual book and his Operation Chastise which was produced shortly after Paul Brickhill’s book is absolutely accurate from the beginning to the end. And it goes right through from the first thoughts during the early thirties about the dams being used in an attack, as a target right through to the actual completion of the whole thing. I got to know John very well and I do find him a very interesting and pleasant character and I do much appreciate that what he writes is purely factual and nothing more. There are a few of the other authors that might take example from that, I think.
DE: Do you think sometimes perhaps that Operation Chastise has sort of over- shadowed some of the other work that Bomber Command did during the war?
GJJ: I can’t see, quite frankly any reason why it shouldn’t be because the work that Bomber Command did during the war was certainly something that everybody has to be extremely grateful for. And that, I find is another of my moans at the moment — trying to get recognition for those. I think the figure as I know at the moment is fifty seven thousand six hundred and eighty one, something like that, who were killed. Over eight thousand that were injured, some permanently, and the over nine thousand who spent some time in German prisoner of war camps. No recognition of that comes up on anywhere. Particularly from the politicians. The senior politicians in particular. And I have moaned about this and the non-appearance of a Bomber Command medal. And the last time I did this was, strangely enough at the IBCC’s annual dinner two years ago. I was asked if I would say a few words about Bomber Command and about the museum itself, the centre itself and I really went to town on the Bomber Command bit. Particularly Churchill. Because he, to my mind, had no time at all for Sir Arthur Harris, the chief of Bomber Command who was so much respected by the air crews of Bomber Command. And the one particular instance that sticks out is the operation against Dresden. Arthur Harris didn’t want to do it. It had no military achievement. All we would be doing is creating fire but Churchill insisted that it was done. And when it was done and it became virtually a holocaust at Dresden Churchill blamed Harris for it. He had wanted to do it. He striked me as being the type of man who if he had an idea which he thought would help end the war he’d go to the senior colleague in that particular area and suggest it to them. If it came off it was my idea. If it doesn’t it’s your fault. It shouldn’t have gone like that. And that was the sort of thing I found so annoying about his attitude generally. It may sound a bit off-side, an Englishman talking about Churchill in that matter but that’s the way I feel about him. I found that on that particular dinner meeting I mentioned senior politicians all the way through and when it came to the IBCC I was as full of praise as I possibly could be and stressed the personal effect it could have. And at that time my MP, my local MP, [Catherine Lesser?] at Bristol [?] I had met on a couple of occasions before, I’d done a brief interview with the Daily Express, shortly before the dinner and the Daily Telegraph journalist was sitting in the dinner making notes as I spoke and they both printed the next morning. And oddly, Catherine read it and then she wrote a letter to David Cameron which suggested why didn’t he do something about it? Why couldn’t he even invite me down there and discuss what might be done between us to put this on. And then I got a copy of his reply to her letter and a more political letter you couldn’t wish to see. Everything that could be done had been done. You can’t afford two medals for the same business and there’s already the 1945 [pause] sorry the ’39 ’45 Star and the Air Crew Europe and now they’ve got the clasp which I had said at my talk I thought was an absolute insult. A tiny bit of copper with perhaps Bomber Command, if you can read it, across it. It has to be fitted to an existing medal and [pause] but then, that’s the way it goes. And so far, we’re still no nearer to a Bomber Command medal than we were then but at least it doesn’t stop us from trying. Anyway, when I get the opportunity, I belly ache about it and I will go on to.
DE: What do you think about the memorials that there are to Bomber Command?
GJJ: I think the park, the Green Park one is very good. I think the, I take my hat off to the sculptor that designed it. I think that you can see the look of expectation in that crew’s eyes as they’re waiting for their comrades to come back. And you can also see in some the tiredness in their eyes. And if — I’ve got a picture down there. If you can. The one behind the one in the front.
DE: We’ll have a look at it in a minute if you —
GJJ: That shows [pause] That shows the model, the memorial in the background behind that aircraft with the, “Never forget,” notice underneath. I think it’s tremendous. But yes, a very good model. But again, it’s not, not as personal as the IBCC and that I think is the finest memorial to Bomber Command that there is in this country in that it is so personal and reflects so much the work that Bomber Command did. And of course, includes the Bomber Command county of course as we say Lincolnshire was known. Others, I think, where they’re placed, I think the people that have done it have done it with every good intention and I think they make a point but the dominance in my mind comes from the IBCC and I have yet to see anything that will really overtake it.
DE: Smashing. Thank you. Just, as I think as a final question what are your feelings about the campaigns to give you some personal recognition?
GJJ: I am absolutely completely grateful to all those people that have worked and prepared to sign the petitions and those who have worked so hard to get them signed. I’m grateful for the award that has resulted from that. Very grateful. But I have to remember that this is not me. I’m the lucky one. I’m still alive. This is representation of what the squadron has done and that is the way it needs to be looked at. I will always regard it as such. Again, but still with great gratitude for, for the recognition. And that is why I find that my recognition from Lincoln [pause] Lincoln [pause] I’ll try that again, from Lincoln University is so special to me because it not only deals with my wartime stuff but it deals more specifically or I think highlights more specifically my work and life after my service life. And I think that I’ll always be extremely grateful for that. Absolutely. A great deal.
DE: Thank you very much. I think that’s, that’s absolutely wonderful. We’ve got, got all we hoped to get and more. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AJohnsonGL170801-02AV
PJohnsonGL1703
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Johnny Johnson.Three
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Moving image
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:18:57 audio recording
00:15:33 video recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-01
Description
An account of the resource
George ‘Johnny’ Johnson comments on Paul Brickhill's book and on the 1955 film of the same name, expressing disappointment that there was no mention of the Sorpe Dam. He voices contempt for the unscrupulous people who have made money by selling log books taken from veterans’ families. He notes that not all authors writing about Bomber Command are reliable. He criticises Winston Churchill for the way in which he held Arthur Harris responsible for the Dresden attack of February 1945. He explains his part in the campaign for Bomber Command to receive a medal, and his disappointment about the clasp. He mentions his correspondence with David Cameron. He praises the Green Park memorial but feels the finer one is the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln. He acknowledges the recent recognition given to him, but stresses that gratitude is due to all those who fought and died.
<p>This content is available as embedded video:</p>
<p><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/B87JkF-HJlg?rel=0&showinfo=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe></p>
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Germany--Sorpe Dam
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
106 Squadron
617 Squadron
bombing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
memorial
perception of bombing war
RAF Waddington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/289/3444/PLarmerLO1506.2.jpg
0c1bfe4792951328ad48f11c4ba12ce5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/289/3444/PLarmerLO1507.1.jpg
09c44ccd31bf63ba7cd8f30dcd3cd205
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/289/3444/ALarmerLO151112.2.mp3
df597d935fc6c85c187e6b8070109390
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Larmer, Lawrence
Lawrence Larmer
Laurie Larmer
L O Larmer
L Larmer
Description
An account of the resource
17 items concerning Flying Officer Laurence O'Hara Larmer (1920 - 2023, 430037 Royal Australian Air Force). Lawrence Larmer volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force and trained in Australia and Canada. He flew operations as a pilot flying Halifax with 51 Squadron from RAF Snaith. The collection consists of one oral history interview with him, wartime photographs of aircraft, aircrews and targets, his logbook, route maps, and an official certificate.
The collection was donated by Laurence Larmer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Larmer, LO
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive is with Laurie Larmer 51 Squadron, Halifax bomber during World War II. Interview taking place at Laurie’s house in Strathmore in Melbourne. My name is Adam Purcell it is the 12th of November 2005, 2015 in fact. Laurie we might start with an easy one, can you tell us something about your story before the war growing up what you did, before you enlisted?
LL: I was born in Moody Ponds eh in 1920, September 1923 and eh in 1931 or ’32 an old uncle of my father’s, my father was a painter and paper hanger by trade, during the depression there was obviously not that much work about but eh he managed and in 1931 or ’32 an old uncle by marriage of his died and he owned a hotel in South Yarrow and he left in his will that dad was to be given the lease of this hotel at a certain rental for as long as he wanted. So eh dad without any experience in the hotel business eh we moved into South Yarrow on the corner of Tourag Road and Punt Road and eh he ran this hotel until the old aunty the widow eh realised that the rental had been set in her husband’s will and she couldn’t do anything about it. So she did the next best thing as far as she was concerned, she sold the hotel. My father then moved to another hotel in Prahran and eventually in 1935 he went to a hotel in Ballarat and I went to school, St Patrick’s College Ballarat and I stayed there until I finished my schooling in 1940 eh in 1940 eh I got a job in the Department of Aircraft Production at Fishermans Bend where they were building the Beaufort bomber. Not on technical side, eh in the pay office actually I saw a lot about aeroplanes and what have you and eh in September 1941 I got called up for, I turned eighteen and got called up for a medical examination and eh it was for the army but to avoid going into the army you could volunteer for the navy or the air force. I volunteered for aircrew in the air force and was accepted. Did another medical exam, much stricter medical exam for the air force, aircrew actually, naturally and eh I then went back to work at Fishermans Bend until I got my call up sometime in 1942 and I went into the air force. So that is my pre-service history.
AP: Actually I might close that door if we can ‘cause it is noisy outside [pause] still there but it is not as loud. Okay where were you and how old were you when you heard war was declared and what were your thoughts at the time?
LL: I was, we were at Ballarat on the 3rd of September 1939 I was not quite eh not quite sixteen. I turned sixteen I turned sixteen a couple of weeks after the war was declared like most people I thought or hoped that the war wouldn’t last long and that I wouldn’t be affected. We were so far away that eh it all seemed a bit remote as far as we were concerned. And I certainly didn’t anticipate at that stage. I knew the talk was that kids of eighteen would be called up and I knew then or I thought then, the war would be finished before eh I got eh called up, but it was not to be.
AP: I guess you covered why you joined the air force based on some sort of experience with aeroplanes em why did you move in that direction in some sort of with aircraft. Was there some sort of inspiration that this was going to happen ?
LL: No I think that, I didn’t want to go into the army, the army just seemed to walk everywhere eh the eh hand to hand fighting didn’t sort of attract me. The navy didn’t attract me, I think there is a sort of glamorous feeling about the air force at that time. The Battle of Britain had just been fought and won and the eh airmen were eh I don’t know just a little bit different, and they seemed to just attract me a bit more than the other services.
AP: Can you tell me something about the enlistment process, were there interviews or tests or how did that all happen?
LL: The tests for the army of course was fairly simple, as long as you could stand up and breathe they accepted you for the A
army and that was only for home service. The fellows who wanted to go overseas volunteered for the AIF the call-up was actually for the militia because we didn’t have compulsory service for overseas, eh compulsory callout for overseas service. Eh the air force medical was much stricter, I always remember it was done in eh a place in Russell Street on the corner of Little Column Street were where Preston Motors were for many years after the war [cough] and eh we had eye tests which were particularly hard, they tested your heart and your blood pressure and all that sort of business which seemed a bit unusual for young fellows of eighteen, sixteen, eighteen we were at the time. I passed that and there was a delay of course of some months till they caught up. We were then to be trained under the Empire Air Training Scheme. That was sometime before I was called up, and I actually didn’t go into the air force until December 1942 so it was about twelve months after I volunteered for the air force I got my call-up to report to the service.
AP: Was there anything the air force gave you to do to sort of maintain the interest.
LL: We had to do school, night school, I went to the Essenham High School for two nights a week for about eight or ten weeks eh and we did maths and a few things like that. I can’t recall all the subjects we did, it wasn’t a matter of doing exams or anything. It was just to refresh us from our school days. Did a bit of geometry and angles and things like that, probably preparing us for navigation.
AP: Did you find that sort of training useful, did it help you when you got to your initial training school?
LL: It must have helped at initial training school. I was pretty good at maths even although I say so myself. This always confused me, I was never able to explain it. Two months, after two months at Summers which was the initial training school eh they came out one day, we were all there, they said ‘The following will train as pilots’ and they read a list of names. ‘The following will train as navigators’ they read a list of names and eh ‘the following will train as wireless operators’. And the balance for gunners. How they picked us I don’t know. I can only assume I must have done very, excellently, excellent at maths and those sort of things. Those picked to train as pilots and navigators stayed at Summers for another month. We did a bit of navigation and meteorology and a few things like that. But I, so I think that going back to school, the night school probably helped to refresh an interest in these subjects and it obviously paid dividends as far as I was concerned.
LL: What memories do you have of Summers, of ITS what was a typical day, what things did you do?
AP: Eh a lot of it seemed a waste of time we both knew an aircraft, they didn’t talk about an aircraft, they talked about Morse code and that was terribly important, I couldn’t take a word of Morse code couldn’t take a letter, I couldn’t understand it. Then a couple of nights later, the Aldis lamp I couldn’t even see that, it didn’t register at all. There was no way I was ever going to be a wireless operator and it wasn’t because I wasn’t trying, I just could not, couldn’t get the dots from the dashes in the Morse code. We seemed to do a lot of marching and eh, it was probably very necessary teaching us air force rules and regulations and all that sort of business. After a while you would say, ‘when am I going to see some action, when am I going to do something, when am I going to learn something about flying?’ Particularly once you had been charged to be a pilot you wanted to get on with it. Instead of that we did an extra month eh and then after that extra month I was posted to Benellah.
AR: Benellah was the– ?
LL: Elementary Flying Training School.
AR: What happened there apart from elementary flying training?
LL: Elementary flying training field, the first month we were there. Obviously the weather or something had held up the courses before and we were dragging the chain a bit. For a month we were known as tarmac terriers. We used to hold the wing of the aircraft because of the strong winds and of course Benellah which was a very open aerodrome no runways or anything it was just big one big huge enormous paddock eh and we’d hold, one fellow on either wing, the wing of the aircraft and we’d hold it till it got round there cause the wind would get under it, the aircraft was such a light aircraft, the Tiger Moth and then we would wait till they took off. You turned your back and you would get splattered with little stones and pebbles and that eh. And there would be fellows waiting down the other end when they landed to wait and hold them there and take them round. It was quite an interesting process, we had for half a day and the other half day we did, school, eh lectures on gunnery and eh basic flying without getting in an aircraft eh and navigation and a few things like that, meteorology particularly which was good. That was interesting even although we weren’t flying we saw these aircraft and we knew only in another couple of weeks and we would be there, then we started. We were allotted to an instructor, Jim Pope was my instructor, he was a sergeant a lovely bloke eh we then continued our lectures for half a day and fly for the other half. The next day it would be alternative, you know, flying and then lectures. It was good, I suppose after about eh it’s still sharp in my log book there, must have been twelve or fourteen hours or something went over to Winton one day which was a satellite ‘drome a bit further up the highway with another instructor. After we did one or two circuits and landings he said, ‘take me over there, pull up over there.’ Pointed to a spot where he wanted to go, he said, ‘now’, he said, ‘you are on your own, do three circuits and bumps and then come and pick me up’. I thought ‘goodness gracious me, here I am on my own’, you know, I was ready to go solo. And eh I wasn’t nervous it was just the excitement of it and you know you were concentrating on remembering all the things he told you to do and all that sort of business. I did three circuits and landings and went and picked him up and he said ‘that was good, alright son.’ Then we did eh, I don’t know whether we went back to Benellah, we stayed there, that’s right and he put me out of the aircraft and took another student and eh that was, that was. Then I went back to the normal side of the pad. The next day we done a bit further advanced flying eh cross country, and a few things like that. We were there altogether three months. Normally it would just have been two months, two months flying, but we did three months actually.
AP: What did you think of the Tiger Moth?
LL: Lovely, they were a breeze now you look back on it, in those days it was a pretty big aircraft, here you were sitting in the back seat. There were two seats, one in front, the pilot sat in front there, two little cockpits. Very basic, they had a control column it was just a stick that stuck up, a throttle which you pushed here, it was very, very basic. But we were told nobody had ever been killed in a Tiger Moth, whether that was true or not I don’t know that was, that was and it was good. I remember one day we had to do a cross country, this was sort of a bit scary I thought anyway. A mate of mine we had to go from Benellah to Ochuga [?], Ochuga [?] to Aubrey then from Aubrey back to Benellah. A mate of mine came up to me Tommy Richards he used to live at Clairbourne [?] and he said, ‘you doing this cross country this afternoon?’ I said ‘yes’. He said ‘so am I’ he said, ‘stick with me I know the road.’ He knew the way and then we flew back along the river and then down the highway you weren’t supposed to do that, you were supposed to go that way and the river might have gone down here but we had no problem. Before we left we had the whole thing planned out, had a little map on our knee and had it all. We got full marks for our navigation but it was only that Tommy had lived at eh, where did he, Clairbourne.
AP: You were talking while they were about no one had crashed a Tiger Moth. Did you encounter any accidents or high jinks or near misses or things, did you know- ?
LL: No, not while I was there, no, no. The biggest problem I reckon and they warned us about it was low flying, we used to [unclear] go down low and then we will frighten this farmer down there. There might have been electric wires going across you know. And we had hanging down the wheels, they weren’t retractable wheels on a, on a eh Tiger Moth. We did a bit of low flying everybody did but eh no I didn’t go as low as some of the blokes did you know. They used to try and be real smart and fly at ground level almost but nobody while I was there.
AP: You go from FTS, next step is a service Flying Training School?
LL: Service Flying Training School we got some leave and got a telegram to report to the RTR expenses troop and eh the smarties knew where we were going. There is always a smarty in every crowd all lined up they call and he’s here and he’s there and we are going to Sydney that means we are going overseas. ‘How do you know we are going to Sydney? That’s where the bloody train’s going.’ ‘Oh right oh we are going to Sydney’, and we went to Sydney. We went to Barfield Park and eh there they kitted us out and eh ‘Don’t think because you are here that you are going overseas, you could be going to Queensland.’ Somebody said, ‘well that’s strange what did they give us Australia badges to put on there’ and then they said, ‘you have got these Australia badges but don’t put them on until you get overseas.’ That’s in case we are going overseas, I don’t know. Well we were there about three or four weeks I think eh and we did nothing and that was pretty awful. And what they do, they were waiting for a ship eh [cough] and eventually they got us all lined up one day with the kit bags we put on a train and we went to Brisbane and put on this ship there the Metsonia and eh [cough] we sailed out down the Brisbane River and out we just got outside the harbour and looking over the side we could see a submarine. ‘Goodness me I hope it is one of ours’ or was one of the Americans ‘cause we didn’t have any submarines at the time and eh we headed, they didn’t tell us where we were going. We had a fair idea it was Canada. We went to New Zealand first and picked up some New Zealanders and then went up the west coast of South America and eh North America and landed at San Francisco. At San Francisco they put us on a train, we went to Vancouver eh got off the train there and put us on one of the Canadian Pacific Railway trains. We went to a place called Edmonton in Alberta. Eh that was quite strange because we didn’t know exactly what was going to happen from there on in. There was a big heap of us there and after three or four or five days I suppose eh we got another posting. I was posted to a place called Dauphin which was in Manitoba which didn’t mean much to me at that stage. Manitoba is actually the central province of the whole of Canada. Dauphin was about ah, suppose it would be about a hundred and fifty mile north west of Winnipeg which was the capital. Then the train went through, there was nothing in Dauphin apart from the air force base and the little village really [cough]. And so when we got there eh we found that we were going to fly Cessna Cranes which was a twin-engine, little twin-engine aircraft, lovely aircraft to fly, lovely and eh that was where eh he made the point there before in crashes in Tiger Moths. I had an Australian instructor, there were a couple of Australian Instructors on the station the rest of them were Canadians. The Canadians were lovely people. The officers were friendly, they didn’t muck around with formalities and that, it was real good. Eh this Australian instructor I had was a Sergeant Lawley, Lawla, Lawley I have got it down, there we are. He didn’t want to be an instructor he wanted to get at the overseas and he was a most unfriendly fellow, but you know I was coping with him and eh one morning we got up and he and another trainee pilot had been killed night flying. It could have been me and eh and that was about the first experience I’d had with anybody sort of eh death, you know. I was nineteen years of age and you were not used to it. Anyway they gave them a full military funeral eh which was good. Then I got a Canadian instructor and then it was real great after that it was wonderful and eh I sailed through the rest of the course. And I graduated in September ’43 as a sergeant pilot, I reckon we were pretty good.
AP: So then comes a boat across to the UK presumably.
LL: Yeah, we got a bit of liberty and went down to New York and Washington which we could ill afford and eh we went to Halifax in Nova Scotia and caught a, and got a boat to, I can’t remember the name of the ship we got to England we went to England in [loud background noise].
AP: We might just wait for a moment I think [laughs].
AP: So we were talking about a boat across to UK, you were just about to embark at Halifax.
LL: The interesting part about that trip was the ship that we went on, I think it might have been the Aquitania. It was a big ship, a lot of Americans on board [doorbell interruption; laugh].
AP: Anyway let’s get back to the boat [laugh] the Aquitania.
LL: And eh there were a lot of Americans from the mid-west not only had they not been on a ship, they never even seen the ocean. A lot of those kids, they were sick all over, oh! it was awful and what we did because we were too fast for a convoy we went on our own. But they zig-zagged all day, that way and then that way all during the daylight hours eh because it takes a certain time for a submarine to line them up to fire a torpedo at them and that’s what. That didn’t worry us but it was most unusual and when it got dark we went whoosh straight ahead. And eh we lived in pretty awful conditions, it was wartime we had hammocks and had a long table that came out from the deck, from the side of the ship and if there were six blokes at the table, three either side you had to find your accommodation so one bloke would sleep on this bench there another back there. Two blokes one would sleep on the table and the other three would be in hammocks above. That’s how, and we couldn’t have showers, we couldn’t shave properly it was pretty awful. We landed at Liverpool and eh went eh got on a train, went to Brighton. We got off the train at Brighton and there was a fellow there, he was a Wing Commander Andy Swan, he was a Scotchman in the RAAF. He had apparently been in the Black Watch for many years before the war done his time, retired, came out to Australia to live and the war started. He applied for a commission and got a commission, they sent him back to England, he was ground staff what we call a shiny bummer ISD interested in special duties. He was a wing commander and he was a dreadful man, dreadful fellow. He saw us, we had been five days on the ship, unshaven, unwashed and feeling very, very lousy and he berated us on the Brighton railway station, platform. Eh he had us smartened up within no time at all, we were going to do this and what a disgrace we were. Anyway the following morning eh, no two mornings later we had a general parade in the hall and there was the padre there, the Church of England padre a fellow called Dave Bear, you might have heard the blokes talk about Dave Bear he was a marvellous fellow he put everybody at ease you know. He said ‘there are three religions in the services, RC’s odds and sods and the other buggers’, he says ‘I am one of the other buggers, if you want anything just come and see me.’ He had a sign above his shop, his store ‘abandon rank all ye who enter here’. And that is what he was like. He used to give advice on a charge or anything like that or help you to write letters home or whatever you wanted. He was a great bloke, didn’t make any difference what you were he was just a wonderful fellow. He virtually did sort of a lot, undid a lot of the evil things this Andy Swan had done. They tell a story of the fellow who finished his tour and is on his way back home and Brighton is what they called 11 PDRC, Personnel Dispatch and Reception Centre. So any Australian airmen who went into England went through Brighton and when they were going home they went through Brighton and they knew and this fellow had taken the stiffening out of his cap which we all used to do, made us look a bit racy. Swan pulled him up in the street one day and said, ‘where is the stiffening in your cap?’ ‘I lost it over fucking Berlin’ whoops and kept walking. And then after we had been there for a while I got posted. I think the first posting was to a place called Fairoaks which was just near Windsor Castle, pre-war it would have been the King’s private aerodrome. This was just a way of sort of getting us back into flying again and there we flew Tiger Moths for a while. Eh back to Brighton then went off and done a PT course and then we went off and did some more flying eventually I had been up to Scotland, I was flying up there at a place called Banff eh BANFF [spelt out] was out from Aberdeen, from Inverness, out from Inverness the Scotch people were lovely eh and eh got a posting then to eh Lichfield which was 27 Operational Training Unit. The OTU was where you formed a crew. Lichfield was an Australian OTU in that all the aircrew were Australian so we got I got an Australian crew. It was an interesting thing we had the pilots in the centre, the navigators in one corner and the wireless operators and the bomb aimers and the, and the gunners in another corner [cough]. They said, ‘alright, pilots you have got to go and pick a crew.’ It was as simple as that, I didn’t know anybody who was a navigator but a bloke came up to me, ‘you don’t look a bad sort of a bloke’, and he was a wireless op, he was a bomb aimer, a fellow named Bill Hudson and eh Bill had been a used car salesman in Sydney before the war. Eh he had all the fun in the world and he said ‘stay here’, he said, ‘I will get you a navigator, I know a bloke who is a good navigator.’ He didn’t of course, he went off and he brought back a bloke and he introduced him ‘This is Ron Harmes, so wait there,’ he said. ‘I’ll get you a couple of gunners’ so he went off and got a couple of gunners. I said to him, ‘I am supposed to be picking this crew.’ And he said ‘I got it for you skipper don’t worry about it’. Then he got a eh, he got a wireless operator so eh, here we were we had a crew and I had nothing to do with it, we turned out to be good mates, we all got on very well together. A couple of them were different they eh, but we all sort of mixed in and did our job and eh. And eh there we flew Wellingtons, they were a big, heavy lumbering aircraft they really were. They had been used as a bomber during the early stages of the war but they couldn’t carry enough bombs and eh they couldn’t carry great distances, like a lot of the British aircraft the Whitleys and those sort of aircraft, eh Hampdens, twin-engined aircraft and that eh, just hopeless and the Germans had stole the marks on them because the Germans before the war, once the Nazis got in control they said, ‘who cares about the Geneva Convention, we will build the type of aircraft we need to win a war.’ The British they didn’t, they kept, the wing span couldn’t be more than a hundred feet. That is why when they eventually got the Lancasters and the Halifaxes and wing spans more than a hundred feet they couldn’t fit in the hangers because they had built the hangers to take aircraft with wing span of less than a hundred feet. The Germans it didn’t worry them they had aircraft with wing spans greater than a hundred feet. It was a silly situation but that was the way they operated eh and eh we flew these Wellingtons for a while and we were lucky and Bill was a good bomb aimer and we got highly commended for our bombing activities at training. Then eh I don’t know how many hours we did there, it’s in the log book there, we were posted to a place called Riccall eh, which was a Heavy Conversion Unit. I had been flying Tiger Moths and Cessna Cranes, and Ansons and Oxfords and what have you, you know. Then on the Wellington then boom, four-engined aircraft, it was like eh, like riding a bike and then getting driving train or something it was just sort of an enormous thing really. There we picked up our flight engineer. There weren’t any Australian engineers so we got an Englishman he was the only Englishman in the crew, good bloke too. I don’t know how many hours we did there but that is all in the log book. Then one day they said ‘right Larmer, your crew is posted to a squadron.’ ‘Oops, yeah okay, when do we go?’ ‘This afternoon’ [laugh]. So there we were on a train and eh they met us with a truck. We thought, by this time I got commission and eh they picked us up in a truck. Another crew arrived at the same time as us, this was an English crew. It was an English squadron but this other crew was an English crew, I only had the one Englishman and I, we were the only Australian crew on 51 Squadron at the time. There had been some there before and eh, we went to the orderly room, they told us where we were billeted told me what time dinner was in the officers’ mess and all that sort of business and report to the, you are in B Flight report to B Flight Office at nine o’ clock tomorrow morning. That I did and eh the squadron leader what was his name, Lodge he had nothing doing today. He introduced me to the other blokes, other pilots that were there. The bomb aimers had reported to the bombing leader and the navs to the nav leader and what have you eh, and then he called me back and said I will get you an air test, eleven o’clock. I got the crew and we done and air test at eleven o’clock. I don’t know what the point of it was, they had just done some repairs to an aircraft. Anyway we just hung around then for a couple of days. They said if you are wanted for flying, for an operation your name will be on a list in the officers’ mess. That was up at five o’clock at night you know, a couple of, we had been there about three days, and I got the list five o’clock you know. The following crews will report to the briefing room at 0600 hours tomorrow and my name was there. I went down to the officers’ mess and they said, ‘yes we’ve seen it’, so they knew, all the crew knew. And that was it were there, ready for our first operation which was a bit strange. Nobody took any notice of you, we were just another crew there and nobody sort of put their arm on your shoulder and said ‘you will be right son.’ Just eh, you were briefed, you had a meal and boom, off you go. They said, ‘you go and get dressed, you go and do this, you go and pick up your parachute, you do this, there will be a truck will take you out to your aircraft which was at your dispersal point.’ And that was it. Then eh we did another daylight and then a couple of nights later, a couple of nights later there was a list up eh one morning that there was a briefing at two o’clock and I was flying second pilot with an experienced crew. My crew weren’t going on it, just me and this other pilot went with another crew and he was in C Flight, I was in B Flight. That was a bit strange I had nothing to do except sit next to the pilot and you saw everything that was going on, the rest of the time when you were flying you were doing something, you were busy, you didn’t have time to be worried or frightened or anything like that. I don’t think I was frightened actually on this particular night. But you could see all the anti-aircraft shells exploding all around you and what have you. We got back and we were just taxiing around to a dispersal and we heard this other aircraft calling to eh traffic control V-Victor or J-Johnnie or whatever it was. ‘V-Victor overshoot.’ They had come in a bit high and they were overshooting, the second pilot, the other bloke that had arrived the same time as me, he was still a sergeant. The bomb aimer used to sit next to the pilot on take-off and landing and eh the pilot would open the throttles but then he would have to control, take the control column. So the second dickie used to hold the, hold the throttles open, apparently this bloke didn’t . He’d opened, the pilot had opened it, got onto the thing, the throttles came back, they only got, anyway it crashed, they were all killed, eight of them it was. Nothing was mentioned at debriefing, and the next day at lunch time I said ‘did somebody, what are the funeral arrangements.’ He said ‘what?’ I said, ‘the funeral arrangements for those blokes that were killed.’ He said, ‘there is no funeral, there is a war on son.’ Stone me you know these blokes that were killed in our back yard just across the road from the end of the runway. They buried them, slight, you know quickly eh but they didn’t get any military funeral or what have you it was just ‘there is a war on son.’ And that was it.
AP: Living conditions at Snaith, how, how and where did you live?
LL: Well we were billeted away from the station, of course everybody had a bike eh we were somewhere down near the local village and [cough] just had living accommodation there and as an officer and aircrew we got eh sheets which normally you didn’t get in the air force. Eh in the mess we got, we could get fresh milk and eh before and after a raid we got a meal of bacon and eggs which were luxuries in wartime England. The rest of the time eh the billets were pretty ordinary but you know you got used to them. I could never front breakfast, on one station we were on, this was just after the war we were at Leconfield and one morning for breakfast they’d have kippered herrings and the next morning would be baked beans on toast, they were, I could cop the baked beans on toast but not the kippered herrings, they were. We used to have to wait for the NAAFI which was the restaurant or café opened about eh half past ten or something to get some breakfast [cough] but basically the living conditions were pretty crude eh but that was wartime England you know, they, they couldn’t produce their own food, it all had to be imported and there were much more important things to eh to bring in to the country. But you know we survived, we complained about it mainly because we were eh used to Australian food and Australian conditions. But basically it was pretty good.
AP: Just sort of routing of that for a bit, what were your first impressions of war time England, what did you think, presumably this was the first time you were overseas?
LL: Well eh it was quite a shock, it took a bit of getting used to. When we got there in the November eh it was eh they had two hours daylight saving. Naturally you know that was to eh, you couldn’t have a shower, in Brighton the Australian Air Force had taken over two hotels, the Grand and the Metropole eh and they were eh big, real big hotels. They had stopped the lifts working, if you were on the third floor you walked up and down to the [cough] you could have a bath but the water could only ever come to a certain level. There were all those sort of restrictions you ah you put up with really. You got used to them I suppose after a while mainly because you saw the English and eh they were, they were probably worse off than we were, you know they were on rations and we didn’t have, when we used to go on leave, they used to give us the ration to give to the people we were staying with or wherever we were staying would want ration tickets. But eh you know you couldn’t drive a car, there was no petrol available for private, well there was for doctors and things like that but basically there were all those sort of restrictions. There were blackouts and we had a pretty miserable sort of an existence we found but you got used to it after, well a couple of years I was there, just over two years, just on two years, it was you got used to these sort of things. We were pretty well received the Australians they liked us, they thought we were colonials still but I think some of them still do probably. But eh we went, we were well received on the squadron eh mainly because they didn’t know how to take us. They were eh, we didn’t salute officers, we’d salute wing commanders and above but eh you were supposed to salute squadron leaders and you were supposed to salute flight lieutenants. If you were acting as a flight commander something like that, those sort of thing you know used to rile us. We used to go out of our way [emphasis] not to and that really used to get them going. They didn’t like us at all, and they didn’t know how to discipline us really, they were frightened, and we used to tell them we were subject to RAAF control from and they had headquarters in London and they would have to go through them, but they didn’t know really [cough]. But we survived I suppose.
AP: What sort of things did you do to relax if you weren’t on operations. Where did you go on leave, even not on leave, just when not on duty?
LL: Eh, not much at all, you used to hang around. When we were on the squadron and eh you see that there was nothing going today or nothing going tomorrow day, tomorrow eh you’d go to the pub in the village or you would stay in the mess. They might have a few drinks in the mess eh but eh basically we didn’t do anything with, we didn’t play tennis or cricket or any of those sort of things. I don’t know how we kept fit but we did [laugh].
AP: What sort of things happened in the officers’ mess, what did it look like first of all? What went on there?
LL: Eh very sort of strict, you didn’t sit at this table because this was where the senior officers sat and eh you as a new bloke could sit at that table up there you know. A couple of nights after I had been there a couple of days after I had been there I sat at the wrong table and they told me you know. I couldn’t say that it made any difference where you were sitting but that was what the sort of thing. This is where the senior officers sit. Not you know, when I got on the Squadron I was a pilot officer you know I hadn’t even graduated up to flying officer eh and that sort of thing sort of got to you a bit. I, I went into the flight office one morning, used to go in there, the flight commander you know, used to give him a sort of half salute. He was pretty good Colin Lodge, Plug Lodge they used to call him and eh he was on leave. I had been having a drink in the mess with this fellow I can’t think of his name now, eh he was a flight lieutenant and I had been drinking with him in the mess having a couple of beers with him. Eh I went to the flight office the next morning, I walked in and he is sitting behind the desk and eh I said ‘hello.’ And he said ‘you haven’t saluted.’ I said ‘I don’t have to salute flight lieutenants.’ And he said ‘I am acting squadron leader.’ I said ‘well you haven’t got the bloody rank, not showing it.’ Stupid stubborn you know, he said ‘I am acting flight commander and you are supposed to salute me.’ Oh I probably was supposed to salute the acting flight commander but I, as I say I had been having a drink with him the night before. And he said ‘go outside and come in again and salute me.’ I said ‘right ho.’ I went outside and went down the mess and had a shower. He never spoke to me again, never spoke to me again. Just unbelievable you know, that was the sort of thing. Eh we had one, this Bill Hudson I was telling you about the bomb aimer, we came back from a raid one day eh and after when you came back you dumped all your gear and what have you and you go up for a debriefing and you sit around the table, the intelligence officer sits opposite eh while you are waiting to go in, other crews that are there before you there had been a bit of a hold up and eh on our squadron the padres would give you either eh you could have a cocoa, or a tea, a coffee or something like that and eh an over proof rum. Well I had only one over proof rum, it nearly blew my bloody head off that was all. On this particular day, the eh two gunners didn’t drink and the wireless operator didn’t drink so Bill had two or three over proof rums. And we get in there and he was always a bit of a yapper our Bill eh there was a very attractive WAAF intelligence officer she was a flight lieutenant or a flight officer as they call them eh and eh she spoke to me first and how did we find it over the target area and did we this and that, one thing and another you know [cough] eh and then she said to the navigator and what about, did you have any trouble with your Gee box various [unclear] so and so. And then Bill he was looking at her sort of making a play for her, he had no hope and she didn’t wake up you know. He started to tell her about over the target area. Now there was flak coming up and eh and then the fighters and then the anti, the searchlights and he was wondering how he was able to do it. He was telling her this terrible bloody story and we were just about killing ourselves laughing you know and all of a sudden she woke up. It was a daylight raid and Bill had searchlights coming into his eyes you know. She didn’t think it was funny at all, I said, ‘don’t take any notice of him you know, just write down that we dropped our bombs and we got good photos of the target we reckon and so and so’. No. She wanted to put him on a charge eh for misleading and all that sort of business. Anyway I, I talked to her for some considerable time to try and break her down and I thought I had got, anyway I got to the flight office the next morning and the eh Squadron Leader Lodge said ‘what was this with your bomb aimer last night?’ [emphasis] I said, ‘oh no.’ she had reported it, he she demanded he put him on a charge. I had great difficulty restraining him from putting Bill on a charge and eh that gave us a much worse reputation than we deserved, you know. We were a good crew and we were doing a good job but eh just Bill had, had two over proof rums gone to his ruddy head. I will tell you one story it didn’t happen on our squadron eh but we heard about it in York or one of the local pubs or something. Eh after briefing and the mail all that sort of business, and you got out of the aircraft and had about quarter of an hour, twenty minutes and waited around, you put your stuff in the aircraft and the blokes would have a smoke, had a smoke. Just stand around and sort of relax waiting for time as I say, better get ready and so I can get out there, you know what time you had to take off. This wireless operator went up and eh and he said eh to the pilot, ‘I am not going skip.’ He said, ‘what do you mean you are not going?’ He said ‘I am not going’ he said. ‘You’ve got to go.’ He said, ‘I am not going.’ ‘Why?’ ‘I am not going.’ That’s all he said, so they sent for the flight commander and the flight commander sent one of the ground staff blokes off on a bike to get the -. He arrived out in his car and ‘you’ve got to go.’ ‘I’m not going.’ And that’s all he said, he wouldn’t give him any explanation or reason or anything you know, ‘I am just not going.’ Eh so they said, ‘you will be charged with desertion.’ ‘I am not going’, he said. They charged him with desertion, they locked him up eh they got a relief wireless operator and they were shot down and all killed. Eh he was court martialled and he got ten years in a military prison. I understand that he got out eh shortly after the war finished and they gave them an amnesty those blokes [cough]. But apparently from what I heard, what I subsequently found out later on eh that was all he ever said, ‘I am not going.’ He didn’t tell them why or, or that he wasn’t. He’d been, it wasn’t his first flight, he’d been before, eh two or three times before eh he just said he wasn’t going. Now I don’t know if he had a premonition or what but eh he survived and the other blokes didn’t and that was it. There is not much more I can tell you Adam, I think.
AP: There is one other thing, well there is two questions in particular that I have for you but one I have find out is, on your wings here is a little Guinness pin.
LL: [laugh]
AP: I am guessing there is a story behind that.
LL: On one leave we went to, went to Ireland eh and eh and one day there was a tour of the Guinness Brewery in Dublin. We had to go over in civvies but they knew we were airmen because we had our air force trousers and open neck shirt, blue shirt and sports coat which the army, air force store had provided for us. That was the only way we could get into, get into eh Southern Ireland because it was a neutral country. Eh this fellow said ‘you want to, give you this you know, Guinness badge, it will bring you luck, wear it for luck.’ I used to wear it on my battle dress, I just pinned it onto the eh onto the wing after I got rid of the battle dress at the end of the war, that was all.
AP: Been there ever since.
LL: [laugh]
AP: Okay there is another question that I want to ask as well. Was there any superstitions or [? voodoos] on 51 Squadron, rituals that people would do that you were aware of, for luck I suppose?
LL: No one thing they did eh they did, we had to do thirty flights, thirty trips for a, for a, for a tour eh and anybody that was doing their thirtieth trip, you knew but you would never say to the bloke ‘is this your last trip?’ I said it to one bloke ‘is this your last trip?’ [emphasis] He very near hit me. That was a very bad sign, no I don’t think there was, don’t think there was anything like that eh, not that I can recall, no.
AP: Okay. Final question and probably the most important em, how in your view is Bomber Command remembered, what sort of legacy?
LL: We fellows in Bomber Command eh [pause] during the war you didn’t sort of think much about how good you were and all that sort of business but when you saw the figures at the end of the war of the casualties and eh this is a classic example. The casualties there, just the Australian casualties that is eh when you saw you realised they had a loss rate of something round about forty per cent. It was a bit higher for the English, forty two or three per cent you know it was pretty awful and eh Harris was treated very shabbily by the British Government at the end of the war. Harris apparently, not apparently actually he was a brilliant organiser absolutely brilliant but apparently he was a dreadful bastard he used to argue eh and he would refuse. They would tell him a target say on Monday, they would have to get a couple of days in advance obviously to plan up and how many aircraft they would need, which way they would go and all that sort of business. Eh and he would tell them he wouldn’t go, that ‘we are not going to that place.’ You know. Just refused to, he would argue with Churchill, he would argue with the Air Board, he would argue with the Air Ministry eh he was one of those sort of fellows but he was always right. They wouldn’t admit it of course but eh ‘we are not going there, you want us to go there because this suits you after the war you know, so we are not going there, but we will go there.’ They said ‘no we don’t want to go there till next week.’ ‘Well we are going this week.’ You know, and he would plan it and that would be a very successful raid and it would have done the job you know eh. And at the end of the war all the chiefs of all the commands like Fighter Command, Coastal Command and Training Command were all made Marshals of the Royal Air Force, Harris wasn’t they left his as an air chief marshal. He resigned his commission immediately got on an aeroplane and went, took his wife and daughter to South America, to eh South Africa eh I don’t know whether he ever went back. Somebody told me once that he thought years afterwards that they eh had relented and made him a marshal of the Royal Air Force. I am not sure about that I never heard anything about that. Eh and eh that without any publicity the fact that these three blokes got, or four blokes got air, or marshals of the Royal Air Force which was equivalent of a field marshal eh and Harris didn’t. We all felt a bit, ‘is that what they think of us, is that really?’ We had the idea that we won the war, Harris gave us this impression. We are doing this as opposed to the American Eighth Air Force eh, and they were sort of a bit at loggerheads, they didn’t do any daylight, eh night time flights they only did daylights the eh Americans and we did daylights and nights you know, whatever it didn’t make any difference. We went out over the North Sea and fly for hours over the North Sea without any landmarks eh to check your position eh. We reckoned that Bomber Command had done an enormous job and they had, there was no two ways about it eh and a lot of us sort of felt well, the bulk of Bomber Command felt let down, eh really. Fighter Command got a lot of publicity early in the war Churchill went on with this ‘never was so much owed by so much, many to so few’. Eh but their work finished in September ’41. And they didn’t really do anything further until eh the invasion. They went over with, a bit of protective force for the invasion forces but basically they didn’t do anything. Eh we never had any fighter escort, never, the Americans had fighter escorts they used to take them over there and then meet them on the way back but we never had any. So as far as Fighter Command was concerned they did nothing [emphasis] for three years during the war. Bomber Command flew in operational flights from the day the war started or the day after the war started until the day after the war finished, really. So that was a bit of a let-down, really. And then eh persevered it took seventy odd, sixty, seventy years before we got a little clasp that said Bomber Command, the Bomber Command Association like the old boys of Bomber Command like their association in England, they tried for years to eh get some recognition and they eh tried to get us awarded the eh congress, eh the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal, CGM, eh they eventually knocked it back completely to ‘no’, said logistically couldn’t be done and all this sort of business and they went on and had a million reasons for it. And then they said well eh ‘we’ve got these ribbons.’ But no what does that show eh I’ve got a ribbon France, Germany Star which shows that I was in operations, but doesn’t show that I was in Bomber Command. So they said ‘we will give you a Bomber Command [doorbell interruption]. That’s typical.
LL: I rang our honours and awards section in Canberra week after week after week and I’ve given up. ‘Well’ they said, ‘your application is on hold.’ And I said, ‘why would it be on hold?’ ‘I don’t know why Mr Larmer but it is on hold.’ I said, ‘well get it bloody off hold.’ Eventually she then came back a couple of days later, ‘no, no it’s ok.’ I said ‘there couldn’t have been any bloody doubt about it, you know. You have got the exact figures and you have a copy of my log book’ and all that sort of business. ‘We are sorry about that Mr Larmer.’ ‘Now’, I said, ‘now how long is it going to take?’ ‘Oh it shouldn’t be very long now.’ Anyway eh I’d been waiting, oh, from the time I applied it was seventeen months and a mate of mine said, ‘why don’t you get onto John Find?’ I said, ‘no, no John Find couldn’t do anything.’ Anyway the next thing I know I get a ring from John Find’s producer. And eh I said ‘who told you?’ ‘Mr Bill Burke a friend of mine’. I said ‘Oh no, I said I told him I wasn’t, didn’t want to.’ And she said, ‘John would like to speak to you about it.’ Anyway he spoke to me and he sort of eh said, ‘are you serious, you know you have been waiting seventeen months?’ and I said, ‘yeah’ I said, ‘it doesn’t have to be fairly long, because I am ninety years of age, if it don’t get it soon it doesn’t matter.’ And he said, ‘no we’ll get it.’ And eh anyway he rang me back the next day, she rang me back the next day she said ‘John wants to speak to you again.’ He said ‘I have been speaking to the assistant minister eh, and eh he said within six weeks.’ And I said ‘ I don’t know what you drink in that place, but if you believe him, you know.’ I said ‘they won’t have it in six weeks.’ Two weeks later I got it, we got it you know. He rang me and said ‘Oh Mr Larmer your clasp for your Bomber Command clasp is coming through, you know it will be sent it down to you in the next week.’ Two weeks it took and I spoke to John Find afterwards to thank him and I said ‘I, I can’t understand it you know’. He said ‘Laurie they are frightened of us, we can give them bad publicity’, he said, ‘they don’t want any.’ He said, ‘we could have made them look very foolish.’ He said ‘and that is what we were prepared to do’, he said, ‘and they know it’, he said, ‘it is an awful way to exist.’ He said, ‘you couldn’t embarrass them but we could.’ Isn’t that terrible really and that was the thing. I wasn’t so much the fault of the people here in Australia, the people in England hadn’t done anything about it. It took an assistant minister here to get onto somebody in England to get them. They only had to put a fifty or sixty or a hundred of them in a box you know, it wouldn’t be as big as that, to get them out here and that’s what happened. So you know that’s what happened. Overall eh we reckon that Bomber Command and probably we are a bit unreasonable but I reckon we got a bit of a, you know rough end of the pineapple. Because eh towards the end of the war all the operations in the last two years of the war all the operations with Bomber Command all the news on the, on the BBC was six hundred of their aircraft went to Nuremburg last night, ten of our aircraft are missing. That was another thing, ten of our aircraft, but it was seventy men. Even meant you know you go on a raid and say three out of their aircraft went to Dortmund and they did bomb the railway yards and whatever they might have done you know. Five of their aircraft are missing that was thirty five men and that, that sort of eh took a bit of getting used to. Eh I could see their point from a psychological point of view everything was done to protect the morale, or build up the morale of the British people eh but eh it gave you the impression that aeroplanes were more important than blokes [ironic laugh] probably in war time they had plenty of blokes but were short of aircraft you know. There you are, alright you have heard all of that?
AP: I think we have heard all of that. Thank you very much it has been a pleasure for the last couple of hours.
LL: [laugh]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ALarmerLO151112
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Lawrence Larmer
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:09:51 audio recording
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Purcell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-12
Description
An account of the resource
Lawrence Larmer was born in Australia in 1920. After completing school he went to work on the Beaufort aircraft in the Department of Aircraft Production. He was called up in 1942 and volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force to avoid the army. His initial training on Tiger Moth aircraft was followed by further training in Manitoba, Canada. He graduated as a sergeant pilot in 1943 and was posted to Great Britain. He describes conditions at 11 Personnel Dispatch and Reception Centre, Brighton. At 27 Operational Training Unit, RAF Lichfield, he crewed up before posting to 1658 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall. His first operational posting was to 51 Squadron at RAF Snaith. Lawrence Larmer discusses in detail the process of crewing up, of relations between personnel on the station, officers’ living conditions, and a case of desertion. He also discusses his views on Sir Arthur Harris and recounts his experience of applying for the Bomber Command clasp.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Mal Prissick
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Canada
Great Britain
England--Brighton
England--Staffordshire
England--Yorkshire
Manitoba
United States
England--Sussex
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
1658 HCU
27 OTU
51 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
coping mechanism
crewing up
debriefing
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
mess
military discipline
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Lichfield
RAF Riccall
RAF Snaith
superstition
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/259/3519/WhittleG.2.jpg
5db8e5ab7f504e33ee8fdd28593061a7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/259/3519/AWhittleG150626.2.mp3
101772ee338ddf0cb41c285d70c6cb1c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Whittle, Geoffrey
G G Whittle
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-26
2016-08-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Whittle, G
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Geoffrey Gordon Whittle DFM (1923 – 2016, 1397166 Royal Air Force), as well as his log books, photographs and memoirs.
Geoffrey Whittle flew operations as a navigator with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna.
There is a sub-collection of 25 Air Charts, mostly of Great Britain.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Denise Field and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Digital Archive with Squadron Leader Geoffrey Whittle, it’s the 26th of June and we are in Ruskington. So if you could tell me a little bit about your life and your experiences please?
GW: I was born in London, the outskirts of London, southern side and, I came from a family, printing background. My grandfather at one time had his own business; my father was in the national press. So I was destined with my brother to become printers as such, em. I was pulled away from school at the age of fourteen to take up an apprenticeship, which were not easily obtained unless you had an insight into the business. So I started off my career path as a trainee printer. The war came along, ‘39 and we were nicely placed when things hotted up in 1940 to be on the path to central London for the bombers. So at that time I was working in London, going in every day and was subjected to the bombing then my firm pulled out to one of its subsidiary operations in Hertfordshire in Letchworth. So I sort of missed that and I missed a further lot of the bombing. I used to get it or see it when I went home for the weekend or a little bit longer. Anyway coming up to the age of eighteen I felt that I was going to be called up. In the meantime my brother who was seven years older than me joined up immediately after the war started and was due to come home for commissioning selection on the day that Hitler started his push. That went by the board and he then became a prisoner of war at St Valerie. He was attached to the Fifty First Highland Division, that leads on to another story of my life. So I decided I was going to be called up, there was no way about it, but so ah, in 1941, so I had no desire to go into the army, no desire to go into the navy, so a sure fire way of getting into the air force and interesting of course, was to volunteer for aircrew duties. So I duly went off in October ‘41 for selection process and I was invited, I think that is the right word to use. Invited at the time to consider training as an observer, this was a precursor to the special navigation, bomber, gunnery thing that took place before the four-engined bomber came in. I was eventually called up in March of 1942 and went through the sausage machine at Regent’s Park and three weeks, what do you call it now boot camp, I suppose at Brighton and then down to Paignton for OTU, for, ITS Paignton in the summer months, it was rather an idyllic time the weather was superb, swimming every day and we had taken over the various hotels and things on the front at Paignton that was just across the beach. Oh, incidentally we were told while we were at St John’s Wood, Regent’s Park that we would not be going overseas for training. That was a little disappointing though as one had thoughts of going to South Africa or Canada but it didn’t in fact materialise. With hindsight one can see why when they were building up the ‘43 force, ‘43 and they wanted more people to go through the machine. Anyway it was from Paignton we went to Eastbourne for elementary air navigation school where we were doing all the ground work. We were eventually moved out of Eastbourne because of the nights we spent standing around the streets when the air raid warning had taken, been given and we moved up to Bridgnorth, I was only at Bridgnorth for two or three weeks and from there I went to West Freugh in Scotland, south of Stranraer on the Mull of Galloway. We arrived there the end of October the beginning of November and we had the joys of Scottish winter, in the winter time at a place called Stranraer. I have no idea what it looks like now, but it was pretty grotty, to use such a word in 1942. We did our flying and I vividly recall we had a great passing out parade there were sixty on the course. Em, great passing out parade at about four o’clock in the afternoon on the 1st of March 1943 and that same night we entrained for various OTUs that we were going to, no leave, nothing like that. So overnight travel from Scotland down to 27 OTU which was at Lichfield where one crewed up pilot and wireless operator, I think that was really the three of us and converted onto the Wellington. That is where I was fortunate enough to be picked and it was absolutely true that one has read we were put into a room, all the various categories and out of that crews appeared. I had a chap he was an old man, I was then twenty, no nineteen he must have been all of thirty four. Bill Walker, he had a lot of experience he must have had three or four hundred hours of flying because when he finished his pilot’s training he went off as a staff pilot at an air gunner’s school, great chap, chartered surveyor and we crewed up and flew the Wellington. Converted onto that on various exercises and trips until we were eventually considered competent enough to move onto the Heavy Conversion Unit which 1656 at Lindholme.
DE: The crewing up procedure, who chose who?
GW: The pilot basically, he went round, would you like to fly? I don’t know what the attraction was other than we were both over six foot tall. It made some difference, anyway that’s how it worked.
DE: Did you feel more confident with a pilot who had got more hours and was older?
GW: I don’t think we even thought about it, it was just nice that you had it. He came along, would you like to fly with me and off we went. I think at nineteen we didn’t question life so much as nineteen year- old as youngsters do nowadays. That was the form and we were going through it. So we moved to Lindholme and converted onto the Lancaster and there we met up with the rest of the crew, the flight engineer, the two gunners, and, no the bomb aimer must have been at Lichfield as well, not sure, can’t remember.
DE: Was that a similar process to get the gunners and engineer?
GW: I think so, they happened, it was a long time ago, a long time ago. We just appeared and we converted onto the Lancaster and did some day flying and did some night flying and I think it was the 21st, 25th of July, no correction 25th of June 1943 we were posted to 101 Squadron. Then they had just moved to Ludford Magna from Holme on Spalding Moor and we arrived as I have said on the 25th of June from Lindholme where we did our first operation two nights later. That was a conversion to squadron life, It was a gardening trip, you know Lavashell, minelaying so one was into the thing. And then we carried on, did various trips. The next major trip was on Cologne and then we were in the very last wave. So one saw the fires burning over Cologne a long, long before we got there but it was good initiation. Then after that it was a variety of trips to the Ruhr, Berlin, Nuremberg, Peenemunde, things like that. I can talk more about [unclear] in a minute. Then on our fifteenth operation that was on Hanover, as we were getting close to the target we were first of all coned by a searchlight and within seconds hit by anti-aircraft fire and by a night fighter which was not funny [laugh]. The port inner engine caught fire, the distance reading compass in fuselage in the back, it took one of the night fighter bullets, we had holes in the aircraft and we also had a small fire in-house in the fuselage. Anyway the flight engineer put out the fire we did a steep dive to port, when I say put out, he feathered the engine and deep dive to port and that fortunately put the fire out in the engine and also shook off the night fighter. Then he went back and started trying to put the fire out in the fuselage with a few bullets going off around him because it was affecting the ammunition trays. We were warned to stand by to bail out, Bill pulled the aircraft up back to about fifteen thousand feet and dropped the bombs and proceeded on. The fire broke out again, the rear gunner had a little problem, the flight engineer and the mid upper gunner pulled him out. We were very restricted with navigation equipment, I lost all my stuff in the dive to port, it just slid off the table. I managed to save my computer, Dalton computer and a pair of compasses, a few pencils and that was it. Anyway we stood by to bail out and being good aircrew we had a little discussion and decided, let’s try to get home, and we did. According to the reports after at the first debriefing the weather was not all that good. We got back, diverted to Lindholme, landed did a ground loop [laugh] finished up somewhere in the nether regions of Lindholme. Scrambled out of the aircraft and had to wait to be picked up. The port wheel had been punctured that was the trouble as we hit the ground we went round.
DE: Obviously the port engine had been hit.
GE: The aircraft was a write off. Anyway that was on the 25th of September, 27th of September, the 27th, the 27th. Three weeks after that the pilot and the flight engineer both received Gallantry Medals, immediate awards. Two weeks after that the wireless operator and myself each received immediate awards of a Distinguished Flying Medal and the other guys, the bomb aimer who was an officer, got the DFC and the two gunners got DFMs so we were all decorated with the immediate awards. The interesting thing about that was that the beginning of November a little later in November I was gazetted as a pilot officer with effect from the 27th of September so in fact I flew as a sergeant but was a pilot officer as indeed was Bill Walker and, so we both received medals as opposed to the officer awards. The interesting thing on that of course was the recipient of the DFC received forty pounds gratuity which went immediately to the RAF Benevolent Fund. As a sergeant we received twenty pounds which we keep and twenty pounds went a long way [laugh]. Anyway that was that and that was a memorable day.
DE: You mentioned the rear gunner had a problem, what was that?
GE: Oxygen mainly and I think and obviously overcome by fumes with the stuff burning was going down into his turret and that probably affected him some, he was recovered they pulled him out and gave him some more oxygen and then he went back into his turret. The pilot lost his controls, they had been severed. So it was all in all an interesting evening but we got back. Anyway we did not do very much flying in October. We were due to go on leave and nothing happened anyway on the next trip that I mentioned earlier I perforated my eardrum in flight and I was whipped off to hospital. Whilst I was there unfortunately my crew were shot down on the third sortie without me near Liege in Belgium on their way to Stuttgart. By that time we had acquired an extra member of the crew, the ABC operator, and so they were shot down and the pilot, the wireless operator and the navigator who replaced me did get out em, the pilot and the wireless operator became prisoners of war and the navigator in fact got back to England. All three of them have since died so I am now the sole survivor of that original crew. And that is why for very good reasons I am so interested in this Bomber Memorial because the names of the crews will go up on the walls and I think that is something they deserve. The wireless operator had a young son he was six months when he was killed and I tied up with his son twenty odd years ago and I normally see him once a year and that is very interesting and I think he likes it as well, it is a connection to his youth and a father he really did not really know. On the trips the interesting ones, Peenemunde which was quite out of the ordinary, it was done on a full moon when of course we never flew. So to be called suddenly to ops in the middle of August or July, I will have to look up my facts, was quite surprising and then usually as a navigator we didn’t get a pre main briefing, nav briefing, when so often we [unclear] our routes and basic stuff, although it was the final stuff before the main briefing the final met forecast so we could produce our flight plan. And when we arrived in the crew room, who should be sitting at the top table, one Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris [laugh]. The briefing took place and there it was when the curtains went back and this red line right across the North Sea a straight route virtually to some obscure place on the northern coast of Germany. And the bombing was at six thousand feet which was unusual. So all of these sort of things were quite intriguing but nobody would tell why we were going there, and so Arthur Harris finished up by saying ‘well I can’t tell you about the target all I will tell you, that it is vital that it is knocked out and if you don’t knock it out tonight you will go back tomorrow night and the night after and the night after until you have knocked it out’. We had the master bomber technique, first time on the main course raid, I must admit he didn’t sound over encouraging the way the markers were going down, the bombs were going down. I did really think on the way back, it was an eight hour trip, something like that em, full moon, saw a couple of aircraft shot down, I was looking out the astrodome. I really thought we would be back the next night and I must admit it was a great relief to get up somewhere around eleven o’clock, twelve o’clock next day to find out the raid had been a success. Great relief, and of course it was a great success from the point of view of slowing down the flying bombs. The impact that would have had on D-Day, let alone the civilian population. But I did experience when I went home on leave the odd V1 and V2 [laugh] not funny especially the V2, you did not hear anything but the bang. The interesting thing about the master bomber technique, they trialled it two or three weeks beforehand with a small force of one hundred and fifty Lancs from 1 Group another hundred and fifty from 5 Group and we were split up onto three targets, Genoa, Milan and Turin. 1 Group had fifty on Turin, the 5 Group had fifty on Milan if I remember correctly and twenty five each went to Genoa. The time of attack was one o’clock, ‘oh one hundred’ on Sunday morning. We were doing quite well, it was a nice night to fly, saw the Alps for the first time in one’s life and I was three or four minutes ahead of my actual time for my ETA so I would do a traditional dog leg sixty degrees one way one hundred and eighty the other, that saved three minutes. Sixty, one twenty and then we were back on track. We arrived at the target, virtually 1 am and the interesting thing was, God bless the Italians that as we were approaching the target it was quite lit up with anti-aircraft fire. Guns going off everywhere, since the first bombs went down they completely stopped [laugh]. We had quite a free run, but it was a long flight back to there and back all over France but that was interesting. As I say we trialled the master bomber technique before it was actually first used. The Berlin trip, well I was asked to do it and on that particular occasion I flew with the squadron commander and, we arrived back about five o’clock in the morning, debriefed and went straight on leave that was our scheduled leave. So I arrived back in London that evening and went out, in civilian clothes. I always changed when I went home and went to our local pub. It was quite intriguing I had a chum there that I met up with who was in uniform, the barman said to him ‘were you over Berlin last night?’ ‘No but he was’, turning to me [laugh]. The barman almost dropped dead to see somebody in civilian clothes, but that was how life was. So what happened after that, I went to hospital, the crew were shot down, came out of hospital. I was grounded for six months and started doing a bit of some instructional work around various places in Lincolnshire. All wartime airfields no longer exist, doing a little bit of navigation and things like that. Then I got my flying category back to eight thousand feet and was sent off for reselection. I went to Eastchurch and I was there on D-Day. I was playing cricket on D-Day, officers versus sergeants watching all these aeroplanes going over wondering what the hell was going on, of course we had no idea. I, asked to go onto Mosquitoes but was told my height restriction would not allow it because the minimum height restriction was twelve thousand feet so I went to Air Sea Rescue, I went down to Cornwall and the aircraft we were flying was the Warwick which was the airborne lifeboat version of the Wellington really and we had a few Sea Otters as well. When the fun moved away from, that part of France, the Cherbourg area the light aircraft moved over to Kirkeville but we were still based in Cornwall. That went on for five or six months and then we were disbanded.
DE: So what did the work entail there, was it patrols?
GW: Standing by more than anything else, I never dropped a lifeboat in my life. We never had to for the main concentration was more to the east than we were. But I say, we were disbanded eventually. So it was back again into the sausage machine and, back for training, I went to [Millom?], did a bit of flying there, then went to Half Penny Green just outside Wolverhampton. And that was then I knew I was going to go into what they called the Tiger Force on Halifaxes and probably glider towing. Then the war finished.
DE: You were on Halifaxes and glider towing because you still had the height restriction?
GW: Yes, as I say I would have done but it never happened, say the war in Europe finished and two or three months of waiting and the war in Japan finished so that was it and like so many aircrew who were non-operational at the time we were invited, what would we like to do? I was still young I was twenty two at the time I thought why would I want to work in an office or that sort of lifestyle? So I opted for the RAF Regiment and I went into the RAF Regiment, went to Germany and trained on armoured cars. I did my basic training, footslogging around here at Belton where the RAF Regiment depot was at that time. I then moved down to Oxford, Boarshill where the armoured car school was and converted onto the Humber armoured car and all the tactics attached to it and then went to Germany as the two I/C of an armoured car squadron. That was interesting, as I say I was a flight lieutenant then and went off. Anyway I was still an apprentice and I was expected to go back to it.
DE: Onto the printing?
GW: Yes back to printing. So I had to take my demob which I did. Went back, decided it was not the life for me so I went round to the RAF Regiment people in London and said, ‘what are the chances of coming back?’ and they said ‘yes we’ll have you extended service commission for four years’. So without consulting my father I gave up my apprenticeship, I cancelled my indentures and rejoined into the RAF Regiment and whilst I was there did a spell at Upavon and then I went out. Yes I did some time at the depot and went out to Upavon and from there I went out to Aden and commanded 4001 Armoured Car Flight. The obvious the Humber car flight and it still exists today in the RAF as a unit. Whilst I was in Aden the wanted, sent out requests for volunteer pilots and navigators to rejoin as aircrew, go back to aircrew, volunteer for aircrew and I did volunteer for that and I did go back. So January 1950 I em, went back into flying duties, finished up in the all-weather world, and funnily enough by that time I got my full flying category back. So that was acceptable and I went into the all-weather world flying Mosquitoes then Meteors. In between times I did the odd ground tour. From the Mosquito I went out to Egypt [unclear]. The pilot I was em, due to join up with, I incidentally when I done my conversion into Mosquitoes I flew with the chap who was taking command of the newly-formed 219 Squadron and then he was going to fly with the nav Leader when got out there, and my chap never appeared so I became station navigation officer. Still did a bit of flying with them then converted to the Meteor and did a bit there. Came home, had a ground tour then went back to flying, went again into Germany as the nav leader of 85 Squadron flying the Meteor and then the Javelin. Whilst I was there my ear blew up again and I perforated it again. So that was the end of my flying. I went to take up my staff college qualifying exam. I then went to staff college in 1959 and whilst we were there were told quite happily by the air member for personnel that the majority of us did not have a full career left in the air force because they were all coming, the younger people were coming out from Cranwell and they had to have first preferences. That was a nice thing to hear, there were about seventy or eighty of us. One or two did get to the top obviously that will always happen. So I went to Fighter Command Headquarters on staff and em, and there I decided to retire, I then had two children and there was eleven years between them and I decided that I would get out and take early retirement. So I retired from the air force in December 1961. Having had such a hatred of working in an office what did I do? I went into banking [laugh]. I saw a friend of mine from air force days who went into it and seemed to enjoy it. It was industrial banking mainly not high street stuff, it was more flowing but it wasn’t my forte. I never objected to the year I spent at it. It made me realise that there was a difference from being an officer in the Royal Air Force with people telling you or you telling people what to do and the discipline attached to it, to mixing with the great British public. It was a very good leveller, I have never objected to that, yeah, although it wasn’t my forte. So whilst I was doing that I thought this is not my scene, let’s look around, see what’s coming up. I saw one or two things and eventually I saw an advert in the paper for management officials in NAAFI the Navy Army and Air Force Institute to train. There was an age limit of thirty I was then thirty five or thirty six so I thought let’s have a go at it and see what happens. My service career will offset the age difference, which it did. So I joined NAAFI as a trainee district manager and retired from it twenty six years later as a departmental manager. In between times I spent em, I finished my training rather quickly as I was sent out to Cyprus on the emergency when the Turks invaded northern Cyprus. Stayed there for four months then I went over to Libya went home then to Libya and I spent eighteen years overseas with NAAFI of my twenty six years with them. Climbing up the promotional tree, started off as a district manager then I became a senior district manager. Then I spent a year on the island of Gan and then onto Singapore from Singapore back of all places to Cyprus [laugh] and went there as a number two to Cyprus. Then back home for a short period and then I had London region, then I went to Singapore. I think I got the sequence right, anyway I went to Singapore twice. First of all, oh, from Gan I went to Singapore on special duties and I was a useful [unclear] for them as I knew the services a lot better than many others and I was doing a lot of liaison work and exercise planning and that sort of thing. Then I went back to Singapore a second time. That’s it from Singapore I had London, interesting working with the Brigade of Guards and all that sort of thing around London. And I then went back to Singapore running the Far East show as the command supervisor. From there I went to Germany as the number two for the whole of Germany and from there into London as a departmental manager. And I retired from there, I stayed on, they were going to retire me at sixty one which was the normal age but I said, I was not ready to go, I was very friendly with the em, I was very friendly with the MD and I stayed on until just before I was sixty five. That’s a long time ago.
DE: When was that?
GW: 1988. When I retired I spent a few months not doing a great deal except getting used to being retired and that sort of thing. We bought a new house in Hampshire, I already had a house in Aldershot which we sold and I bought another one just outside of Hindhead in Hampshire. I always had an interest in local politics but something I could never indulge in because of my in and out of the country all the time. Fortunately I got tied up with the local Conservative Party and became the secretary and things like that. In 1989, one of the two district councillors from my village had to pack up for business reasons. I said I would be quite happy to stand if it was for them, I did and I got elected and that was the next phase of my life. I carried on doing that up until the end of January 19 – no not 19, the end of January 2007 when we moved here, because my daughter and son had both moved to Ruskington. My daughter moved into the army and when her husband retired, a lieutenant colonel he was working in Scotland and then they eventually went back to the house in Hampshire. Decided they knew nobody but had friends here, one day approached us in ’89, ‘we are thinking of moving to Lincolnshire will you come?’ So what do you say? And we said we would, this is what happened. Then my son came up and spent some time with his sister and also bought a house in Ruskington, so we are all living in the village. And we came here in 2007, January 2007, I resigned from my role as district councillor in Hampshire and saw the local Conservatives here and said, ‘can I be of any use to you?’ That’s another story so I have now finished eight years as a district councillor in North Kesteven. And have started my next four years as I have been elected again. So I have had eight elections and got through all of them, and here I am. Really not for the tape I suppose this bit.
DE: Would you like me to pause it?
GW: If you can for a second.
[Recording paused]
DE: Okay so we are recording again. So earlier on you said you didn’t want to join the navy or the army but you wanted to join the RAF. Why not the navy or the army?
GW: I had no desire to live in slit trenches [laugh] I had a pretty good upbringing, you know life was very nice with my family and things. I didn’t really want to go and rough it in the trenches, perhaps I was too fastidious. The thought of going to sea for weeks on end and being perhaps seasick or anything like that I don’t know. I had no interest in them and perhaps I should go back and finish the story of my brother who was a captain, he was a prisoner of war, he contracted pulmonary TB whilst he was a prisoner of war and was due to be exchanged, in 1944, before the war finished. The first exchange they had of prisoners and he had a big haemorrhage and did not come home. But he came back in February 1945 and eh, he was in hospital and he came home he died, in September ‘46. So that was the saga. My brother was as big a chap as I was, an excellent swimmer and he just contracted the disease and I saw him waste away.
DE: Yes, a terrible killer.
GW: I think he attended my wedding, a picture, and that was it, two months later he was dead. So to answer your question there, I had no desire. Don’t forget there was a certain amount of glamour about flying in those days and aircrew were considered to be cuts above some of the others perhaps and nobody knew the scale of losses that Bomber Command suffered. I could never have guaranteed that I would have survived if I had gone on beyond my sixteenth trip, no way.
DE: You wanted to fly then?
GW: Oh yes I was keen on doing it and more so when I got into it, em, I enjoyed the navigation side, I really did.
DE: That was another question em, how did you end up being a navigator rather than any of the other trades?
GW: Well this was the selection process, we had to do one or two tests. I suppose my maths was a little bit better than other people, or what they were looking for at the time. After all the personnel people in London knew what was going to happen in the future and they were planning accordingly. Perhaps there was a shortage of navigators. Remember I started off as an observer and I had to wear the “O” badge and not the “N” badge because we had done a little bit of gunnery, a little bit of bombing, a little bit of photography. Just to get the feel of it, em, when one was flying in Scotland I remember flying past the Blackpool Tower and having to take a photograph and getting that settled and that sort of thing, so we dabbled in the whole lot. It was that before the four-engine bomber coming in, okay the Stirling came in, in ‘42 wasn’t it? The build-up of the Lancaster they compartmentalised, or whatever the word is, we more or less specialised in the particular role. So navigation being the big thing. The bomb aimer up the front dropped bombs, he was also the front gunner and that was it, we had to go through a selection process and took various tests, including a maths test. That was it I was invited to train as an observer, and then actually flew operationally as a navigator.
DE: I see, thank you. You went through in great detail of the times and places where your training was. What was the experience like, leaving home and joining the RAF and the training?
GW: Remember I had left home before and I was living in lodgings in Hertfordshire. So I did use the word remember after the three weeks at Regent’s Park we went and I called it boot camp. Brighton that knocked out any thoughts that you were important at all [laugh]. The drill instructors they were moronic [laugh] without a doubt. I lived in the Grand Hotel in Brighton. We used to parade on the front and of course the AOC of the Training Group 54, that was it 54 Training Group, I can’t remember, was Air Commodore Critchley the great greyhound man and racing man. Nearly all his officers were jockeys, little shorties. We used to parade and these characters would be wandering around making sure we were standing to attention [laugh] then we used to go on drill and the sergeants we had were absolute morons. Lived in the Grand Hotel with none of its splendour. We had our folding beds with three mattresses and I think we had four blankets and two sheets. Every morning we had to make our own beds, and the sheets’ width when we folded them had to be the same thickness as the blankets. So you had blanket, sheet, blanket, sheet, blanket and one blanket round it. You realised within about twenty four hours of getting there that you were never going to sleep in the sheets, because if the bed wasn’t made up the way it was supposed to be. You got back to your hotel, back to your room and there would be the bed all over the place, knocked down by the sergeants, the DIs. Lots of drill, that was boot camp. We lived like that, had to get on with it, the weakest would not survive. Paignton was glorious, I must admit, the West Country was great, the weather was great and life was great. Eastbourne, no problems really except we had many a disturbed night’s sleep, hence the move of the unit to Bridgnorth where we were transferred. Then Stranraer in winter, I can think of better places. Although we were supposed to be the darlings of the world, aircrew cadets, we slept in Nissen huts in double bunks and half the course after we got into the flying side, half the course would be flying at night the others in the morning and there were sixty of us in the hut. It wasn’t exactly glamorous living, the food was awful and then from there it was to Lichfield, don’t remember much about it, I think we got on with more of the job of flying and things. Then Hemswell of course, we were okay, no not Hemswell, Lindholme, the Heavy Conversion Unit, it was mainly flying, we were NCOs, remember up in Scotland and up until graduation we were LACs, Leading Aircraftmen. Then on graduation became sergeants.
DE: Was there a great difference to how you were treated after you became sergeants?
GW: We used the sergeants’ mess, we weren’t restricted as much as when we were airmen. Again [unclear] after the flying, we did not have many administrative duties to do as aircrew. When one was on the Squadron was flying of virtually nothing.
DE: What did you do in your time off when you weren’t flying?
GW: We enjoyed ourselves [laugh] we were young enough to do that. It was on reflection later on in life when one was a little more mature, I had the greatest admiration for my pilot who had a very young son, was married and people like that who were in their thirties and things. We had nothing to lose quite frankly. I can never recall, standing on the peri-track waiting to go out to the aircraft thinking that we wouldn’t come back. There were some that did of course, some just had their problems. But no we really didn’t think that way we didn’t have that responsibility. Okay I had parents but parents are parents aren’t. No we just got on with the job, certainly from my point of view.
DE: Do you think it was different for your pilot having a young son?
GW: I don’t know quite frankly one didn’t talk in that sort of way. We were there as a crew, we lived together except for the pilot, for the, eh bomb aimer, who was an officer he lived in the mess the rest of us lived in a Nissen hut that’s the crew. My pilot was a great smoker, first thing in the morning he would put his hand out of the bed and get a cigarette then light it and then cough and wait for the wake-up call. He em, he’d never smoke in the air, he saw, when he was on his staff job he had a Polish pilot friend who used to get into the Blenheim or whatever they were flying and light up. One day he lit up and going down the runway opening up, the aircraft just went up. Bill’s view was had the aircraft been cleared for smoking then they would have allowed it, because everybody smoked in those days, or virtually everybody. Although he was a great smoker from the first light from waking up in the morning to going to bed, he never smoked in the air. And it used to be great fun because we’d get back, we did the odd nine hours sortie, we would all as we were taxying around to dispersal we would all get back to the rear door to get out to give him the clear run as soon as he had switched off his engines and done what he had to do. He was down that fuselage like a bull in a china shop, out of the aeroplane, over to the edge of the dispersal the great cigarette on [laugh].
DE: So did you not smoke then?
GW: I used to smoke a pipe. My dear father said to me if you are going to smoke, make sure you smoke a pipe. The first time I wore uniform, St John’s Wood, Regent’s Park, we got our uniforms that afternoon, three of us came out of the flats to go the cinema at Swiss Cottage and as we were just leaving the flats up came our young course officer. We threw him up a salute we thought, great stuff this is what you have to do, gave him a salute. He called me back and said ‘young man we don’t normally salute with a pipe in our mouth’ [laugh].
DE: The problems you had with your ears, what were the RAF medical services like, the medical officers in the hospital?
GW: Oh great no troubles at all.
DE: So what was the procedure for?
GW: Well in those days it was powder basically, the second time it was an injection [laugh].
DE: What in your ears?
GW: No it was a sort of type of penicillin we used if I remember. Certainly when I blew it the second time I finished up in hospital in Wegberg. I, used to get an injection for a few days, it was mainly playing it down. I had no trouble with them.
DE: So when the problem first occurred did you first have to report to the Medical Officer?
GW: Oh yes, landed you know I reported, told them what had happened in sick quarters. I can’t remember the time scale but a couple of days later I was off to hospital. I think Northallerton the RAF hospital there. I was there for a few weeks, it was there I was commissioned; I had to be let out of hospital to go down to, to go and buy my uniform and all that sort of stuff.
DE: So apart from when you had trouble with your ears you did not have any contact with the Medical Officer for any other reasons?
GW: No, nothing else wrong with me.
DE: You mentioned one point, I think when D-Day was on, you were actually at the aircrew reselection place at Eastchurch, I have read that this was a rather infamous place?
GW: In what way?
DE: I’ve read that was where people were sent who were LMF.
GW: Could be, wouldn’t know.
DE: Did you ever know or hear of anybody?
GW: Never met anybody, no.
DE: Any rumours?
GW: Possibly, yes possibly one heard about this sort of thing. There might have been some going through and of course they would have been shunted away. No chaps that sort of teamed up with they all went off to other flying duties.
DE: I’m also quite intrigued you – after the war you also got to flying Mosquitoes and Meteors and other aircraft. Which do you think was your favourite aircraft?
GW: Of those three? Oh the Lancaster without a doubt. I wasn’t a happy bunny in the all-weather world, I thought it was a blip chasing job and not a navigation job, but we did the odd navigation exercise and cross countries, n the main chasing another aeroplane, just as a blip on the screen was not my idea of navigation.
DE: Why did you want to get into Mosquitoes towards the end of the war?
GW: Well it was something new, one didn’t realise at the time. The second time I went back I had no choice I wasn’t meant to be back to it.
DE: So why in particular the Lancaster?
GW: Well of course it was the operational time of life. Remember my time on Mosquitoes and the jets was post-war it was only training all the time. Em, the Lancaster was just such a lovely aeroplane, it was reliable, it was fast for its time, mustn’t forget that. And one was doing the job for which one was trained. I was intrigued by navigation. I did do the staff and navigation course later on in life and part of that waiting to go on the course I spent a few hours on Canberras at Basingbourne before that closed down. Filling in time and then I went to Shawbury and did the staff N course. No navigation was intriguing and doing these long flights over to Germany in those days where you did not have all the facilities you have nowadays it was [laugh] it was a challenge.
DE: I suppose it was your job to see that your way should be in the bomber stream and arrived at the right time?
GW: Yeah absolutely. Yes you had it there and you had winds forecast and it was a forecast there was no met coming back from Germany [unclear]. I think the thing was, the only radar the Lancaster had was the Gee box and that used to get swamped by the time we got over Holland, about four degrees east you might get the odd circle afterwards. The big thing was to get as many wind fixes or fixes to take wind strength and things as you were flying over there from UK to Holland and then applying your own thoughts to the met forecast that you received and working on that and then, getting down to N=navigation and time keeping.
DE: Can you describe for me the process of getting a fix for the wind?
GW: Well take it from the radar, you knew the track you were flying, remember you had your map in front of you, your chart, get a fix on the Gee box and it was not analogue, you had to read it on the screen. So speed was of the essence, you get your fix, you plot it on the chart the Gee chart, transfer it onto the other chart. You knew what time you took it, you could work out where you should have been on your course, connect it up to your fix, which incidentally would tell you where you were relative to track and that would give you your wind speed and direction. Now speed is the essence, when you first started training you thought if you could do one, all this within ten minutes it was good going. After a little while on Lancasters and little experience you could do it in a couple of minutes. That was interesting when the war finished I told you I was going onto selection stage again. That we were flying Ansons and we were filling in time, this was at Half Penny Green and flying back on the Anson I could get a fix and read a book [laugh]. Peacetime flying and filling in time, I think I did a three hour cross country and only used one side of a log so completely happy. It is like everything else you become more experienced and more skilful. We weren’t too complicated with em, navigation aids or they could be. So really all we had was the Gee box and astro, we didn’t get any of the other things I think H2S came in and stuff like that. We never got that on 101 Squadron because we were carrying the extra body and extra equipment so the weight factor ruled it out.
DE: You mentioned Harris being at the briefing for the Peenemunde raid, what did you and your crew think to Harris?
GW: [laugh] what a man they called him Butch Harris. As a nineteen year-old two things that stood out at the briefing. First of all when we were all settled in the briefing room, we used to get officers not connected with operations coming in for briefings. I suppose the equipment officer or something like that. First thing he did was to order out anybody not directly connected with the raid. When that happened the curtains went back. He wasn’t gruff, no, another thing intriguing with him, sitting on the stage he had all these aircrew in front of him, what if we had twenty aeroplanes if we had that number, probably a little less, you were thinking in terms of a hundred and forty aircrew plus the various specialists who were also involved. So you had this whole room there, the Commander in Chief Bomber Command. Took a cigarette out of his case got his lighter to light it, it wouldn’t go, perfectly happy he kept flicking it until he did get a light. I thought that to some extent showed the calibre of the man, he wasn’t embarrassed, just got on with it and then at the end you know when he had the final word, his comment you know, ‘good luck chaps, but if you don’t get it tonight, you are going back tomorrow night and the night after’. I don’t suppose really it was until after the war, I read the Max Hastings book on the bomber offensive that one realised how lucky one was to survive sixteen trips. One might have thought then, God if I had known [laugh], who knows but, that’s how it was. It was a phase of life and I have often said it to people, I said it to a lady on Monday with two young children who was flag raising things who was asking me questions. I had to say to her, that 1939 onwards, we were all involved and there was a totally different approach to life from the recent, wars that we have had and God forbid I would have hated to be in any of these wars in Iraq and Afghanistan where you could not identify your enemy from anybody else, but it only impacted on a small percentage of the population, i.e., those that were involved and their immediate families and circle and so people like myself and other. My son never served, my son in law he was in Northern Ireland but he didn’t do Iraq he was out before that. It had no direct impact on us and unless you’ve lived in the ’39 –‘45 bubble and the build up to it before and possibly as it started, it is difficult to envisage how people felt. You can possibly see that as a historian.
DE: Oh most definitely, yes. Which kind of leads me to another question. What are your feelings and thoughts about how the war and in particular how Bomber Command and Harris have been remembered?
GW: Badly, Harris was the only major commander who did not become a viscount. He was fobbed off with a Knight of Garter or something I’m not sure. Never got it anywhere [pause] and a lot of that was connected I think with Dresden and people tend to look on Dresden in a romantic light of the city as it was and not what it actually was. It was a major stumbling block for the Russians to move westwards, it was a railhead, it had armaments there and God knows and therefore it was a prime target at that time. It should have been bombed, the fact that it was destroyed, part of the game. People do not talk about Hanover sorry Hamburg and that suffered just as badly as Dresden did. I can recall when I was in Germany in ‘46 having come out of Hamburg in an armoured car, standing on it on the autobahn outside, looking back and its sheer desolation. But we do not talk about Hamburg because it was an industrial port and things like that. So, Bomber Command were badly done by, I’m never certain that we deserved a Bomber Command medal per se. I think what they have done by giving us the bar is on par with what they did for Fighter Command, Battle of Britain. So they didn’t strike any particular gong for the Battle of Britain which after all was the saving grace of the country at the time. They got us through that period when we were most vulnerable to build on things to get to where they got to in the end. They got their bars, I am perfectly happy with the bar I have got on my aircrew Europe. That did differentiate anyway Bomber Command the people who flew up to D-Day. D-Day got the aircrew Europe Star. People after D-Day got the France and Germany. So yes but I do think that Harris got the bum’s rush so to say and I think he deserved more.
DE: Thinking back to the start of your interview you did mention that you witnessed being on the wrong end of some Luftwaffe bombs in London and again V1s and V2s and then you also talked about was it Cologne and looking down seeing the fires burning because you were in the third wave.
GW: On the last wave, yes. As we approached. I didn’t mention it but this is a real thought a real target somewhere about one o’clock, or later. As we were going along before we got to the target I was thinking had I been on leave, I would have been out or thinking about going home em, at about the time we were bombing. So a little wave and I emphasise the word, a little wave of sympathy went through about doing it and then then it disappeared completely. I had no compunction after that at all. There was a war we were doing it, these targets had to be bombed. I do know some people did suffer, I met a chap at a reunion of 101 Squadron two or three years ago. He lives out at Wragby if he’s still there and he was still having nightmares and hated the Germans. I didn’t, I haven’t had nightmares I must admit. I don’t hate the Germans in fact I lived in Germany after the war as a NAAFI official and I had a Berlin operation, I was in charge of Berlin at one stage completely divorced from the Berlin budget and what went on in the zone. I remember I had a lovely secretary Frau [unclear] whose husband was a real German officer from the Prussian side and one day she was going on about being bombed out, he was in Berlin at the time, he lived in the forest, Charlottenberg area and she talked about being bombed out in 1943. I said ‘what date was that?’ and she told me, ‘I went home because I’d been to Berlin’. Next I said ‘I wasn’t over here that night’ [laugh]. That’s how we got on and we kept in touch for many years after I left Berlin. She died several years ago, no I never had any problem. It’s a phase in life and I said to somebody the other day to me the war was very good because it got me out of printing [laugh] which I did not enjoy one little bit. In those days you know young chaps didn’t have a choice in careers, it was virtually sorted out by the parents. You didn’t have the freedom that they have nowadays. To become a printer was way up on top of the working ladder. Not so sure it is nowadays with unions and who knows what, but no, for me it was a release. Also taking the chance that I did because when I packed it up I was only on a four year commission to start with and I got my permanent commission when I was there.
DE: And then got to see a bit of the world a bit?
GW: And see a lot of the world, so very privileged.
DE: Smashing, I think I have ticked all the little notes I have made. Right at the end if you could tell me your thoughts on the memorial itself that we are building.
GW: I think it is a wonderful idea. I first met the Lord Lieutenant when I, shortly after I became a district councillor and we had our annual civic service and I remember going to that. I was a very new boy, this was in 2007 and the leader of the council, Mayor Marion Brighton introduced me to him, because I had been in Bomber Command and we chatted. I remember him saying to me, I think that this was before the London memorial was built, ‘I think it should be here in Lincolnshire, not in London’. So many of the boys took their last steps in Lincolnshire, you know the twenty two thousand, too their last steps in this county. I remember saying to him, “I quite see where you are coming from sir, I called him sir, but at the end of the day London is the capital of the country and a memorial of that sort should be in London’. I admire him because he did not take any action or overt actions until that was up and then he started. I think he has done a wonderful job and he has an RAF background through his father and his grandfather ha, ha. And I think he is still doing it and I look forward to still being here on the 2nd of October. Who is going to do it or is that still hush, hush.
DE: It is still hush hush.
GW: I don’t care, just want to be here.
DE: Thanks very much.
GW: Pleasure, nice to talk to you.
DE: Oh no pressed record. This is Geoffrey Whittle again, same day same place.
GW: The daily routine on the squadron assuming you hadn’t flown the previous night. Usual thing, get up in the morning, breakfast, go down to the flight or the squadron and Ludford Magna, we lived on one side of the Louth Market Rasen road and the airfield was on the other side. So you go down to the, squadron, might be something going on locally, or not very much. But the main focus was on what was going to happen that night, so you’d be waiting for the battle order to come out. Soon as that was out and pinned up you looked to see if you were on. If you were on the op then your day was conditioned. As a navigator, we would more often than not have pre-nav briefings before the main briefing, that would be a fixed time. Go out to the aircraft and meet the ground crew, not necessary the same aeroplane every time eh, check it over, your own little bit. The gunners would go do what they wanted to do. Then back of to lunch. If I had a nav briefing in the afternoon then you would go down and do your pre-flight planning, then back to the billet. Then off course main briefing, meals main briefing that sort of things, off you go. We were flying in the summer time so all our trips were pretty late at night. Take off, your take off time was fixed then off you go and then ninety percent of the time you would be climbing over base to an operational height and the skies over Lincolnshire used to be pretty full of aeroplanes I can tell you. We developed a system of getting out of it. Saw no point in hanging around, circling with all these people doing the same thing, so we, so we used to shoot off west and climbing steadily and my job then as a navigator to get them back at height over base at the right time, then we would set course. Do the op, get back, land, debrief, breakfast, bed. Sometimes bed would not be until five of six o’clock in the morning. I told you earlier on after our Berlin trip there was no bed it was into Louth, getting the train off on leave. That was it and that went on day in and day out. Then of course we did not fly during the moon period, then you were free, you could do what you liked. There was no booking in or booking out at the guardroom, as senior NCOs and officers you could do as you liked.
DE: So where did you go?
GW: Used to go into Louth.
DE: What were the attractions in Louth?
GW: I couldn’t possibly tell you [laugh]. I could actually it was quite innocent I met a very nice young lady whose parents owned the, was it the Kings Head in Louth? It’s deteriorated, it was quite a nice hotel in these days and they also owned one in Boston. She ran the one in Louth and the parents ran the one in Boston and I would go into Louth and stay the night. Separate rooms I hasten to add. There was none of that nonsense going on in these days. Well it did go on but it didn’t go on in my life. So I would go into Louth or might stay in for the evening and go to the mess, whatever was going on, but, we were not restricted, we were free.
DE: Did you ever go to the NAAFI?
GW: Not as a sergeant. We lived on NAAFI food in Scotland I can tell you the mess food was dire, it was so appalling we had to use it. Yes as an airman I would go into the NAAFI but once one graduated if that was the right word, it was sergeants’ mess, you didn’t go to the NAAFI.
DE: Okay.
GW: They were nothing like they are today I can tell you or they were. They don’t operate in this country now.
DE: Yes quite. Okay thank you very much, I shall press stop again.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWhittleG150626
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Geoffrey Whittle
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:18:13 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Squadron Leader Geoffrey Whittle was born in London. After leaving school at fourteen he became an apprentice printer in the family business. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force on the outbreak of the Second World War and trained as a navigator. He served with 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna. For his fifteenth operation to Hanover, he was awarded the DFM. Having suffered a perforated eardrum on his sixteenth operation, he was grounded for six months. He then flew briefly with Air Sea Rescue. At end of the war, he joined the RAF Regiment on a short-term commission but continued to serve on both ground and flying duties until retirement in 1961. He then worked with the NAAFI (Navy Army and Air Force Institutes), becoming a senior manager, until 1988. He subsequently became a councillor in Hampshire and Lincolnshire.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-26
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Mal Prissick
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Peenemünde
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1943-06-25
1943-09-27
1944
1945
101 Squadron
1656 HCU
27 OTU
air sea rescue
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
briefing
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Medal
Gee
H2S
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Master Bomber
Meteor
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF West Freugh
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/434/7765/PGravinaL1701.2.jpg
14e6975acb33980d407424a0f774e091
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/434/7765/AGravinaL170824.1.mp3
a5b1fe9107899b6ba739c01f9d94c6d1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gravina, Leonardo
Leonardo Gravina
L Gravina
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Leonardo Gravina who recollects his wartime experiences in the Puglia region.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Gravina, L
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Sono Francesca Campani e sto per intervistare Leonardo Gravina per l’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Center. Siamo a Pisa, in [omitted]. È il 12 luglio 2017.
FC: Grazie Leonardo per aver concesso questa intervista. Allora, ehm, se a lei va bene io vorrei iniziare chiedendole cosa si ricorda, quali sono I suoi primi ricordi da piccolo, in che anno è nato, dove stava
LG: Ecco, io sono nato nell’agosto del 1937, quindi il periodo della guerra è iniziata nel ’41 se non ricordo, quindi ’41, già nel ’41 io avevo quattro anni, quello che ricordo che durante la guerra noi eravamo sfollati in campagna e quindi lì nel mio, nel mia fattoria c’era anche una scuola di pluriclasse dalla prima alla seconda alla terza alla quarta alla quinta elementare. E ricordo un particolare, che sarà stato nel ’42, nel ’43 quando già gli americano avevano occupato il meridione. Mentre io andavo a scuola, no?, questa scuola distante da casa mia due, trecento metri, vicino c’era un campo di aviazione di questi americani, un immenso campo di aviazione nella provincia di Foggia e mentre andavo a scuola questi aerei partivano per bombardare soprattutto nei Balcani, soprattutto verso la Romania, Ungheria in aiuto dei russi e al ritorno partivano alle otto di mattina questi super bombardieri, I famosi B29, e ritornavano alle due, alle tre del pomeriggio, quindi avevano cinque o sei ore di volo, e poi questi erano dei quadrimotori, le famose fortezze volanti americane, quando partivano erano tutti in formazione perfetta, c’era il caposquadriglia e tutti gli altri che lo seguivano in formazione. Quando ritornavano il pomeriggio, chi ritornava di qua, chi ritornava di là, insomma ritornavano al campo, perché il campo di aviazione era la nostra masseria, il campo di aviazione era distante in linea d’aria un paio di km, quindi si vedevano questi, e una scena tragica che ricordo con rammarico, molti di questi, molti?, parecchi di questi bombardieri cadevano addirittura a cinquecento metri dal campo di aviazione proprio, forse volavano bassi, non potevano lanciarsi con il paracadute, logicamente, perché volavano a altezza di duecento o trecento metri, e ricordo che un aereo è andato proprio con tutti i sette otto membri dell’equipaggio è precipitato a cinquecento metri dal campo proprio, è caduto in picchiata e si è incendiato e quei poveracci manco
FC: E lei era lì proprio a cinquecento metri a vedere tutta la scena?
LG: Ho visto questo immenso fuoco che si era, poi era d’estate, insomma, si vedeva una cosa. L’altro particolare che io ricordo da bambino, noi eravamo una casa padronale e poi c’erano dove c’erano I garzoni, allora una sera dopo cena vado dai questi garzoni, dai garzoni che stavano ballando, discutendo, eccetera, e cosa trovo? Trovo due tedeschi legati, ma legati dietro la schiena da questo garzone, questo garzone l’aveva legato insieme a un altro dipendente, perché I tedeschi avevano ammazzato il fratello, eccetera, e questi tedeschi erano prigionieri del famoso campo di aviazione, quindi di sera loro erano andati via dal campo per dire alla popolazione di scrivere in Germania che loro erano prigionieri quindi. Quello che mi ha impressionato, allora parliamo del ’43 più o meno, non avevo neanche sette anni, sei o sette anni, vedevo questi due tedeschi legati su un lettino come quello lì con le mani dietro con gli occhi sbarrati e madonna dove siamo capitati, non so se li avevano legati con il filo di ferro, insomma qualche cosa, qualche cosa di, e allora io piangendo andai da mia madre, salii gli scalini e salii da mia madre che disse ‘che c’è’ e gli racconti questo fatto, mia madre era una donna volitiva, lei voleva, una parentesi, che tutti I figli maschi studiassero, allora le raccontai il fatto, allora siccome c’era un fratello primogenito che io sono l’ultimo dei maschi, era in guerra e non sapeva neanche lei che fine avesse fatto insomma, allora mia madre scese giù da questi uomini incavolati e si fece sentire con veemenza, dice ‘questa non è vostra casa, questa è la casa nostra, voi siete dei dipendenti, fate quello che io vi dico.’ Mio padre era più tranquillo, mio padre era un agricoltore, non interveniva. Mia madre invece era bella, una donna forte, decisa. Mio padre era un agricoltore per tradizione e quindi era molto tollerante verso I dipendenti, verso I garzoni che li chiamiamo noi, io ricordo che mio padre in tutti quegli anni che mi ricordo non ha mai ripreso un garzone, non ha mai detto una parola di scortesia. Ogni anno veniva cambiato I garzoni, ma lui mai. Quindi a questo punto questi tedeschi, questi due tedeschi, sono finalmente liberati, allora per reazione questi tedeschi sono scappati, perché era di sera, erano venuti all’imbrunire poi era diventato sera che li avevano legati, poi qualche d’uno li ha aizzato I cani dietro e avevano sparato in aria e finì questa storia di questi due prigionieri tedeschi. Di tedeschi sono stati sempre dipinti secondo la guerra, durante la guerra, seconda guerra mondiale, come uomini duri, spietati, forti, ricordo un particolare quando Ciano dichiarò guerra alla Francia, quando la Francia era già in ginocchio, l’Italia come al solito partecipò sempre, sempre in soccorso del vincitore, quando la Francia aveva già perso la guerra con la Germania, convocò l’ambasciatore francese per la dichiarazione di guerra. L’ambasciatore disse ‘ve ne accorgerete anche voi, I tedeschi son gente dura’. Infatti dopo l’8 settembre l’abbiamo subito pure l’Italia. Non diciamo poi quello che [laughs] questi tedeschi hanno fatto in Russia che hanno ricambiato quando son venuti in Germania. L’altro particolare, ricordo dopo l’8 settembre quando ormai la casa Savoia un pò da vile ecco ha abbandonato il suo esercito e Badoglio disse sempre quelle cose ambigue ‘la guerra è finita però noi, voi potete sempre reagire se qualche d’uno vi attacca’. Io ho frequentato per quindici anni I piemontesi, è un popolo, il piemontese è un grande lavoratore, onesto, corretto, pieno di dignità, però ha una grande ambiguità, non ha mai quella chiarezza di rapporti semplici, io ero un funzionario della Fiat quindi so com’era, per dire la casa Savoia si è comportata proprio con questa mentalità, a parte che poi questi nostri generali, un altro particolare che io lessi, quando sempre l’8 settembre Roma non era ancora occupata dai tedeschi, era in quel periodo ambiguo, gli americani volevano liberare Roma facendo occupare l’aeroporto, allora venne prima da Algeri, prima che mandassero i paracadutisti all’aeroporto, questo generale, comandante di questo, si voleva rendere conto di come effettivamente stavano le cose, venne in Italia di notte trasportato attraverso una ambulanza, cose eccetera, venne ricevuto da questi grandi generali e il comandante in capo dell’esercito italiano disse, il generale americano disse ‘ma noi dobbiamo preparare’, e disse ‘ma no io domani non sono occupato, non posso’. ‘Ma come io son venuto da Algeri, ho rischiato la vita’ ‘no’ disse ‘io non sono occupato. Mia moglie deve fare il trasloco a Torino, e come faccio? Devo fare il trasloco a Torino’. L’altro particolare c’era questo dalla campagna poi siamo passati nel paese, perché la distanza tra la campagna e il paese era una ventina di km. Io sono nato a San Giovanni Rotondo, parliamo di San Giovanni Rotondo e la masseria di trovava dieci km da Foggia insomma. C’era questo, questi soldati sbandati ecco ritorniamo, tutti erano liberi non sapevano, ricordo che ce n’erano venti, trenta e non sapevano, chissà da quanti giorni non mangiavano, insomma, e mia madre da sempre quella energia che aveva, aveva organizzato insieme a altre donne del vicinato, delle fave secche con del lardo, del grasso, era una cosa che per loro era la fine del mondo quindi si rifocillarono e poi andarono via. L’altro particolare che ricordo sempre ritornando al paese è che c’era una colonna di soldati tedeschi che venivano, erano in ritirata dal 10 luglio, dall’invasione della Sicilia, e salivano verso il nord e si erano fermati anche a San Giovanni Rotondo, però tutti I loro automezzi, carroarmati, erano nascosti tra gli alberi, e ricordo un particolare di questo, un giovane soldato tedesco e io nato nel ’37 quindi dopo l’8 settembre avevo sei o sette anni ecco, non più di sette anni, allora questo soldato tedesco stava bevendo a una fontanella e disse non so quello dove sto, ma io sentì sempre curioso, disse ‘noi ci ritiriamo, ma Hitler ha preparato delle armi segrete, noi vinceremo ancora alla guerra’, fiducioso fino all’ultimo che loro avrebbero vinto ancora la guerra. Altri particolari, quando mio fratello ritornò dall’Algeria, prigioniero degli americani, come prigioniero è sempre stato trattato benissimo, lui raccontò che nello sbarco nel luglio del ’43 in Sicilia si trovava si era nascosto insieme ad altri soldati italiani, allora c’era Mussolini era ancora al potere, però gli americani sapevano che c’erano nascosti questi soldati in questo campo di grano appiattiti e ci sparavano addosso e quindi tu vedevi le pallottole, e ci raccontava. Poi ritornò a mia madre per molto che aveva fatto, non so se andò scalza al cimitero, qualche cosa del genere. Poi ecco un altri particolare, sempre quando stavamo in campagna, perché noi stavamo un pò in campagna e un pò, perché noi in campagna avevamo tutto, noi in campagna la guerra non l’abbiamo sofferta, noi avevamo pecore, maiali, conigli, polli, poi il grano per dire, noi coltivavamo cento ettari di terreno, i nostri cugini avevano uno dei più grossi mulini dove macinavano le cose eccetera, che poi ho saputo manomettevano pure il contatore perché la corrente non si poteva, le autorità cittadine lo sapevano e chiudevano un occhio, quindi noi problemi, sta a dimostrare che noi, la guerra per noi, la pace per noi è stata una tragedia [laughs] eh si! Perché è stata una tragedia? Perché durante la guerra il grano andava alle stelle, con la pace che cosa è successo, questo, questi immensi bastimenti americani che hanno inondato l’Europa di grano, affamato, tutta l’Europa era affamata, I figli erano I guerra, le campagne erano un pò abbandonate, eccetera, come con mo fratello, l’azienda la portava avanti l’altro fratello più piccolo, insomma, mio padre per tradizione lavoro manuale non ne ha mai fatti, lui dirigeva soltanto, fisicamente non era, quindi quando è successo la pace, l’Italia o l’Europa è stata invasa da questo grano americano dove questo grano, loro avevano dei terreni vergini perfettamente fertili non coltivati, l’Europa ha coltivato I terreni per migliaia di anni, è logico che si era impoverito il terreno, e se in Europa o in Italia una faceva venti quintali a ettari, in America quando ne facevano cinquanta era una miseria per loro. A parte che da dopo la guerra, si è incominciato a frazionare la proprietà sennò soprattutto al sud c’erano questi baroni, immensi, i quali non gliene fregava niente, scusate l’espressione, di quelli che lavorava lì, si accontentavano soltanto di ricevere per fare la bella vita. Nella città del sud c’è il palazzo del conte, il palazzo del duca, dei terreni non gliene importava, quindi poi è andato in miseria e l’ironia della sorte I primi a lasciare la campagna son stato i garzoni, dopo i garzoni li hanno seguiti i proprietari quindi questo è stato un pò la fine, la nostra masseria c’erano almeno quindici, venti famiglie, c’era anche la scuola, c’era la chiesa, quindi era una specie di paesotto. Io ricordo cinquanta, quando avevo quindici sedici anni erano rimaste due o tre famiglie proprio. Anche perché allora durante la guerra e prima della guerra una famiglia con sei o sette ettari poteva vivere, dei figli che andavano poi a garzone, allora si arrangiavano. Però dopo la guerra a questo punto si è dovuto lasciare tutto, le esigenze famigliari erano finiti, chi è andato in Francia, chi in Germania. Noi siamo andati a Torino [laughs], che è stata un pò la nostra fortuna. Altri ricordi…
FC: La interrompo un attimo
LG: Prego
FC: Lei prima parlava degli aerei americani che partivano per andare a bombardare sui Balcani, no?
LG: Si sui Balcani penso io
FC: Ma invece lei ha, è stato, cioè ha partecipato, cioè ha subito dei bombardamenti lei, era presente
LG: No, non personalmente. Perché il nostro paese, San Giovanni Rotondo, distava da Foggia parliamo in linea d’aerea trenta quaranta km, San Giovanni Rotondo è un paese situato su un promontorio, allora si pensava che mentre bombardavano Foggia venissero a bombardare anche a San Giovanni Rotondo, quindi tutta la popolazione era scappata dal paese ed era andata a vedere dal promontorio si vedeva Foggia sotto, come dire, una città in fiamme, perché poi gli americani usavano queste bombe incendiarie. Ma perché bombardavano? Mi son chiesto perché andavano a bombardare Foggia? Non era come Milano, Torino con le industrie, eccetera. Invece no Foggia era un importante nodo ferroviario e agricolo, era proprio il tavoliere delle Puglie, e quindi era proprio, bombardavano proprio nella stazione ferroviaria. Logicamente questi americani o inglesi, ma soprattuto gli americani cercavo di bombardare con precisione i punti dove erano più opportuno, ma gli inglesi bombardavano un pò indiscriminatamente. A questo punto, e quella volta che tutta la popolazione per paura che venissero a bombardare San Giovanni Rotondo, mio fratello che stava alle superiori, sapeva, non è possibile che vengano a bombardare un paese di questi, dove non c’è niente e quindi lui se ne stava tranquillo a casa, ma noi tutta la popolazione, e come uno, siamo andati proprio alla fine del paese, due o tre km, dove c’era proprio tutta la pianura della puglie, dove da lì si vedeva Foggia che una Foggia incendiata proprio, con le fiamme, di sera ancora proprio emergevano queste fiamme. Un altro particolare sempre nel ’42, ’43, mio padre era andato al consorzio agrario con il carretto per trovare della nafta per il trattore, perché anche quella era tutta razionata però per l’agricoltura si faceva una eccezione, e mentre stava a Foggia, fortunatamente non era vicino alla stazione, ma è venuto terrorizzato, dice ‘sono vivo per miracolo. Queste bombe con le cose’. Noi di San Giovanni Rotondo la guerra non l’abbiamo sofferta, soprattutto noi agricoltori, e mi ricordo un particolare che mia sorella per dire il particolare che mia sorella dava la farina a questa signora per avere in cambio dei fichi, ecco fino a che punto [laughs], fino a che punto di disponibilità noi avevamo. [laughs] Noi diciamo che il disagio è venuto dopo, dopo la guerra, allora il disagio è venuto con questa concorrenza del grano americano, perché questo grano americano non solo erano fertilissimo, le aziende americane, quando una azienda americana agricola ha cento ettari è una azienda piccolina, loro partono da settecento ottocento ettari a salire queste immense pianure, soprattutto nel Texas. In Puglia quando uno cinquanta, settanta, cento ettari già è il massimo allora. Ma io la stragrande, noi avevamo dei trattori, dei cavalli quindi per tenere, ma tutte le altre dieci quindici, non per fare un vanto, tutte le altre dieci quindici famiglie dovevano con sette otto dieci ettari, coltivavano dei fichi, coltivavano dei vigneti, perché avevano tempo, ma noi non avevano il tempo, noi coltivavamo soltanto il grano perché era facile seminare e anche facile raccogliere. Ma anche altri particolari non…
FC: Quindi lei prima parlava che a San Giovanni Rotondo la popolazione aveva paura che iniziassero i bombardamenti
LG: Ecco si l’ignoranza della cosa
FC: Ma erano stati costruiti dei rifugi che lei si ricordi?
LG: No, no
FC: Non era stato fatto nulla?
LG: No, no la città di San Giovanni Rotondo, ma neanche a Foggia avevano costruito dei rifugi. Secondo me questi rifugi venivano fatti, sono stati costruiti in queste grandi città, Napoli, Roma, ma anche Roma era dichiarata città aperta e se ha subito uno o due bombardamenti durante la guerra, ma dove erano pericolosi i bombardamenti erano Milano e Torino dove c’erano le industrie. A San Giovanni Rotondo no, poi negli anni ’43, ’44 Padre Pio, tutto si andava a pensare, ma la resistenza di Padre Pio, c’erano altre preoccupazioni allora. Dopo negli anni cinquanta è esploso tutti venivano a vedere il santo, i miracoli, eccetera, ecco. Tra parentesi parlando di Padre Pio un piccolo particolare, nel ’42, ’43 io avevo cinque anni, una cosa del genere, mia madre mi disse, dice ‘senti dobbiamo andare, non andare da nessuna parte che domattina dobbiamo andare a fare un servizio’. Va bene, e mi ha portato al convento di Padre Pio e allora era pomeriggio, o forse era mattina presto non ricordo bene, c’era questo frate Padre Pio che allora usciva davanti alla chiesa, allora c’era una piccola chiesa, allora io sentivo tutto e mia madre fa ‘Padre c’è questo bambino sempre indemoniato, è sempre in movimento, non si ferma mai, non è possibile, ho altri figli, ma così questo bambino’. Allora questo frate mi mette la mano sulla testa, lui mette la mano e io istintivamente mi abbasso, mi abbasso, e alla fine non mi son potuto più abbassare, ero così allora finalmente mette la mano sulla testa [laughs] e mi fa ‘è un bravo bambino’ ‘stia tranquilla Signora’. Per riconoscenza mia madre ha voluto fare un figlio sacerdote, per questo io a Firenze conosco quindi. Questi sono un pò di particolari della guerra ecco.
FC: Le faccio una domanda, ma in famiglia si parlava della guerra? Quale era il clima? Cosa dicevano I suoi genitori?
LG: No, ma c’era un clima di, come dire, aspettativa, c’era un clima che finisse, ecco questa era la speranza. Un pò, gli agricoltori durante il fascismo gli agricoltori erano un pò tutti di destra perché Mussolini li favoriva, li favoriva perché lui diceva che l’Italia doveva essere autarchica, che doveva essere indipendente e quindi l’agricoltura per il fascismo e quindi un pò tutti gli agricoltori tendevano per riconoscenza verso Mussolini, ma era come dire una tendenza interessata non convinta del fascismo, dice tu mi dai questo io ti ringrazio [laughs], col sennò del poi il fascismo poi alla fine insomma.
FC: E lei come bambino aveva, si ricorda se pensava qualcosa in particolare?
LG: No, io, mancava un giorno mancava un periodo di un garzoncello, perchè poi in quel periodo questi garzoncelli non è che si pagavano un granché, non è che noi li sfruttavamo, si pagava olio, grano, farina, alimenti, ecco, non è come oggi con i contributi, eccetera, insomma, allora quel giorno mancava questo garzoncello che portava queste mandrie di maiali e mia madre ha detto manca e vai tu. E ricordo un particolare che mentre io guardavo queste mandrie era agosto, quindi questi maiali mangiavano quelle spighe di grano che erano cadute e che riuscivano a mangiare. In Puglia ci sono questi trattori, questi lotti di campagna e io mentre guardavo questi maiali vidi passare una cosa eccezionale, una camionetta, una camionetta militare. Era sempre prima de 25 luglio, sempre quando noi eravamo alleati con i tedeschi. Vidi questa, non era una gip, era una classica camionetta tedesca, c’era l’autista davanti e due ufficiali dietro. Dovevano essere alti ufficiali. Beh quello che mi ha impressionato di questi ufficiali, io poi li guardai bene perché quando arrivarono alla mia altezza c’era, dovevano svoltare quindi sono andati a passo lento, quindi io li ho guardati bene quando sono passati di fronte a me, erano impassibili, erano delle statue, seduti dietro, impeccabili, in perfetta forma, con una tenuta militare perfetta, immobili, e non dicevano una parola né uno né l’altro. Qualche cosa che mi ha colpito. Ma noi immaginiamo degli ufficiali italiani, degli ufficiali americani, ma questi tedeschi che stavano lì impeccabili, fermi e così come se il mondo per loro esisteva soltanto per loro la guerra.
FC: E lei questo lo vedeva da bambino come una cosa positiva o negativa? Cioè era affascinato o era spaventato?
LG: No, non ero né affascinato né spaventato. Lì per lì non capii questo atteggiamento di questi tedeschi, anche perché non avevo una forma di paragone con vari soldati. Oggi posso capire I soldati italiani, gli ufficiali italiani, americani, francesi, uno sta dietro parla, fa, dice, insomma racconta qualche cosa, come va la guerra o della famiglia, qualche cosa dice, non è che uno sta delle ore così, loro stavano ore [laughs], ma I tedeschi erano fatti, erano fatti così perché poi lessi ultimamente di questo grande giornalista che non ricordo il nome, dice questi soldati tedeschi prigionieri, prigionieri in Francia dopo la fine della guerra che stanno riparando una strada, stavano riparando una strada dice ‘mi ha colpito questa serietà di questo popolo che costruirono questa strada con il massimo impegno, con il massimo, nessuno parlava, nessuno discuteva, tutti lavoravano, questo mi ha fatto paura, un popolo compatto, un popolo compatto’. Ritornando ai tedeschi se mi allargo un pò, nel 1914 un grande comunista tedesco disse ‘la Germania -quindi prima che scoppiasse la guerre- la Germania per dominare l’Europa non ha bisogno della guerra, è in grado di dominarla senza fare delle guerre’. Oggi dopo due guerre disastrose e soprattutto la seconda guerra, guerra mondiale, dove in Germania non c’era una casa in piedi, oggi la Germania domina l’Europa. Ma questo, io non mi meraviglio tanto del popolo tedesco, forse lo ammiro, no forse, io ammiro il popolo tedesco, non ammiro le atrocità che hanno fatto durante la guerra, perché solo i tedeschi potevano fare quello che hanno fatto nella Shoah e con gli ebrei, zingari, omosessuali, sei o sette milioni, solo loro potevano obbedire l’ordine, solo loro lo potevano fare. Ma già duemila anni fa Tacito diceva, criticava la corruzione e la verità dell’Impero romano e li contrapponeva all’integrità morale dei barbari germanici, l’integrità morale dei barbari germanici, queste sono, nel bene e nel male bisogna dire che I tedeschi sono grandi, ecco un grande popolo fa dei grandi errori, un piccolo popolo fa [laughs] che detto in parole povere.
FC: Le faccio qualche ultima domanda, lei se la ricorda la Liberazione? Finita la guerra cosa è cambiato? C’è stato un momento in cui ha capito…
LG: No, per noi no, sa perché? Noi la guerra partigiana, da noi la guerra partigiana non c’è stata, al sud non c’è stata. La guerra partigiana iniziò dalla Toscana a salire, perché gli americani arrivarono nel ’44 quindi non c’è stata questa, quindi abbiamo subito l’occupazione degli americani, subiti?, noi li abbiamo applauditi [laughs], li abbiamo applauditi gli americani che sono venuti a liberarci dal fascismo. Quello che c’è stato nell’Italia del nord e a Milano, eccetera, quella sì, ma noi al sud non c’è stata nessuna guerra partigiani perché i tedeschi erano già scappati.
FC: Quindi lei non si ricorda americani, inglesi? Di avere avuto a che fare?
LG: No, mi ricordo, ecco mi ricordo un particolare. C’era sempre un aviatore americano che veniva alla masseria nostra perché come ripeto il capo dell’aviazione era un, quindi noi questi americani andavano in giro, non è che andavano tutti i giorni, andavano a bombardare a rotazione. Questo soldato, questo aviatore americano mi aveva preso in simpatia, parliamo del ’44 quindi io avevo sette anni, quindi ogni volta che mi vedeva, io mi, siccome mi dava caramelle cose eccetera, io gli andavo incontro, gli facevo delle feste, lui mi buttava a calcioni, cose, eccetera, poi mi diceva ti porterò in America, ti porterò in America, e mia madre stava sempre attenta e diceva si, si, poi non venne più, sicuramente era stato abbattuto. Poi, e questo aviatore, questo pilota mi aveva regalato un casco da aviatore da ragazzo. Si vede che l’aveva fatto fare per me e tanto è vero che da bambino I miei amici mi chiamavano il pilota con questo casco da aviatore che era tutto in cuoio, bellissimo. [laughs] questi sono un pò di ricordi.
FC: E, quindi lei non ha avvertito tanto una differenza tra un prima e un dopo, se non
LG: Noi diciamo che prima della guerra gli agricoltori, come dicevo prima, erano una classe privilegiata, dopo la guerra, eh dopo la guerra, allora abbiamo visto la differenze, il mondo era cambiato, e allora abbiamo visto la differenza, allora gli operai non è che venivano più come dire assoldati in cambio di poco ecco diciamo. Dopo la guerra bisogna pagare i contributi, la pensione, eccetera, a questo punto l’agricoltura, l’agricoltura con il grano che si era abbassato logicamente non era più sostenibile tanto è vero che gli agricoltori, ma non solo in Italia ma in tutta Europa, tanto è vero che gli agricoltori sono andati letteralmente in miseria, quando negli anni cinquanta un ettaro costava dieci, dodici milioni, che era una cifra. Dopo non valeva niente, perché non producevano i soldi che uno aveva acquistato, quindi tutte le campagne, anche perché durante il fascismo come si sa l’Italia era un paese agricolo, noi eravamo un paese agricolo dove nell’agricoltura erano impigliati il trenta quaranta percento della popolazione, quando in un paese industrializzato oscilla tra l’uno e il due o percento. Il trenta quaranta percento, dopo siamo diventati con il miracolo economico siamo diventati industriali, la gente ha lasciato la campagna e sono andati a lavorare nelle industrie del nord. Questa è la verità.
FC: Ultimissima domanda, oggi dopo tutti questi anni lei cosa pensa della guerra? Della guerra mondiale e della guerra in generale.
LG: La guerra mondiale, tutte le guerre sono disastrose per un principio generale. Nelle guerre non ci sono né vinti né vincitori, alla fine ci sono sempre due perdenti. Se poi lo riduciamo nel piccolo quando uno litiga aspramente con un vicino, litiga aspramente con una persona sono due perdenti che ci rimettono alla fine tutti e due. Dice ma allora non bisogna mai entrare in guerra? No, allora facciamo le distinzioni. Moralmente è difficile distinguere tra guerra giusta e guerra ingiusta. E prendiamo queste guerre contro questi Isis di Mosul, Raqqa, eccetera dove questi mandano questi terresti per farsi saltare in tutta Europa. Ecco io dico, cavolo, questi qua mandano in giro questa gente qui e noi subiamo continuamente che vengono a minacciare che prima o poi sventolerà sul Vaticano la bandiera nera dell’Isis e noi stiamo qui, allora qui la guerra, allora uno deve scendere a questo punto, deve scendere in guerra per difendere i propri ideali, i propri diritti, per la sicurezza dei figli, deve difendere, non si può questo mondo essere, come dire, porgere sempre l’altra guancia, umanamente, ma anche la Chiesa a questo punto dice deve sempre subire, a questo punto c’è tutto un limite di sopportazione. Montanelli diceva, no Enzo Biagi diceva la persona più, ecco che è in tema, la persona più tranquilla, più pacifica, più mite che c’è a questo punto, quando subisce un’angheria, poi ne subisce un’altra, poi ne subisce un’altra, prima o poi si ribella e questo è la ribellione di un uomo mite, quindi una persona normale si ribella molto prima. E io ricordo un episodio, quando ero a Como e dirigevo questa esattoria in provincia di Como, c’era questo capo operaio che aveva preso di mira questo geometra che comandava. Questo operaio nel paese aveva visto questo geometra da ragazzino e quindi lui pensava che fosse sempre un ragazzino, quello era il geometra io l’aveva messo a comandare il cantiere, questo operaio gli diceva ‘tu non vali niente geometra, tu non conti niente, tu non fai così, tu non fai colà’, al che io dicevo ‘scusa Enrico ma tu non ti devi fare questo punto sempre trattare così da uno come questo’, ‘ma cosa vuoi, cosa non vuoi è uno fatto così’. Beh un bel giorno si è ribellato il geometra, ha detto che gliene ha dette, ‘tu se sei qui perché te lo dico io, altrimenti se io voglio da domani mattina tu andrai da un altro cantiere sennò rischi addirittura il licenziamento. E tu hai detto questo, questo e questo sopra di me e io ti ho sempre ascoltato e anche quando tu mi hai trattato male io ti ho difeso e tu mi hai sputato alle spalle, io ti ho difeso quando gli altri, tu eri in ginocchio e io non ne ho approfittato’. Ecco la guerra, però I tedeschi la guerra ce l’hanno nel sangue, I tedeschi la famosa cultura prussiana ce l’hanno nel sangue.
FC: E invece gli inglesi?
LG: Gli inglesi sono un popolo, come dire, in apparenza sono un popolo, come dire, debole, un popolo sempliciotto, un popolo da sottovalutare, e invece no quando combattono per le loro idee, come gli americani, quando combattono per le loro idee danno la loro vita per la comunità, hanno il senso della comunità, hanno il senso della libertà, anche perché loro la Magna Charta l’hanno avuta nel 1248, quindi loro la libertà ce l’hanno nel sangue. Cosa che hanno trasmesso indirettamente anche agli americani, perché la stessa lingua, la stessa cosa, loro ce l’hanno nel sangue.
FC: Quindi cosa pensa del fatto che hanno bombardato l’Italia durante la seconda guerra mondiale?
FC: Gli americani, ci sono due tipi di bombardamenti. I bombardamenti effettuati dagli inglesi e i bombardamenti effettuati dagli americani. Gli inglesi bombardavano indistintamente, non guardavano per dove, invece gli americani andavano a bombardare nei limiti del possibile cercavano di colpire l’obiettivo principale, invece loro, gli inglesi lo facevano proprio a livello terroristico, ma si può anche capire quando loro hanno subito tutti questi bombardamenti tra V1 e V2, e tutti questi bombardamenti, e quindi c’è stato un pò una rivincita, ma forse proprio era una specie di vendetta, come la vendetta di russi quando son venuti in Germania e hanno violentato due milioni di donne, vecchie e bambine, la moglie di Kolle è stata violentata che era una bambina di tredici anni da decine di soldati e poi questa bambina era caduta, l’hanno presa e l’hanno buttata in mezzo a una strada, poi si è suicidata. Invece gli americani no. Ecco però io non condivido questi bombardamenti indiscriminati e uno dei famosi bombardamenti indiscrinati che cosa sono successi quando sono andati a bombardare nel marzo, febbraio, marzo del ’45 a Dresda che era la Firenze del nord, come lei sa. Questa città non era stata mai bombardata, proprio in ricordo ella sua bellezza artistica. Un mese prima, perché a fine aprile Hitler si è suicidato. Se parliamo di marzo, no. [interruption]
FC: Riprendiamo dopo una interruzione.
LG: Partiamo da Dresda?
FC: Come vuole, diceva che è un peccato che un mese prima della fine della guerra
LG: Si uno o due mesi prima della guerra quando partirono dall’Inghilterra sette, ottocento bombardieri americani, eh inglesi, con queste bombe incendiarie. Tutti I pompieri della Germania sono accorsi a Dresda per spegnere l’incendio. Quando tutti I soccorritori erano su Dresda arrivarono ancora mille bombardieri americani e li intrappolarono tutti. Questa è stata proprio una, un crimine orrendo sia inglesi sia americani insomma, che senso ha colpire uomini, donne, bambini, già quelli avevano subito. Quando la Merkel dice ‘noi siamo usciti dall’inferno’ non dice una fesseria. Ed ecco il popolo inglese che a volte vive un pò fuori dalla realtà. E lo dimostra con questo esempio significativo quando morì questo comandante in capo di queste forze aeree che comandava I bombardamenti sulla Germania, si chiama sir Harris, quando è morto nel ’60, ’70 gli avevano fatto un monumento. Gli inglesi hanno avuto il coraggio di invitare le autorità tedesche ad assistere e questa inaugurazione a questo monumento. Vivete fuori dal mondo, non ho capito [laughs] lo chiamavano Harris il bombardiere, vivete fuori dal mondo. Ritornando ai bombardamenti, sempre parlando dei bombardamenti, gli americani invece sono un popolo molto pragmatico, pratico, realista, non vanno tanto pre, vanno al sodo, non vanno come noi italiani, napoletani, ecco no, vanno direttamente al sodo, mi diceva un colonnello che ho conosciuto a Napoli della NATO, dice ‘tu Leonardo non ti devi credere che I soldati americani fossero dei, -noi consideriamo che gli americani consideriamo dei fanciulloni, degli sciocconi-, loro hanno una disciplina militari peggio della disciplina tedesca’. Io bombardamenti sono stati indiscriminati insomma. Su Dresda è stato per me un delitto, fatto proprio a scopo di vendetta. Come il bombardamento di Hiroshima e Nagasaki. Lì ecco lo posso capire, il bombardamento atomico, perché gli americani loro, come dire, conteggiano tutto, tutte le spese, già loro fanno la prevenzione, loro avevano calcolato che già per invadere l’isola di Iwojima o di Okinawa, le prime isole giapponesi, territorio giapponese, isolette come poteva essere l’isola dell’Elba, gli americani hanno subito tredicimila morti e ventimila feriti. Ah dice cavolo dice ma noi per occupare una piccola isoletta tra morti e feriti arriviamo a quaranta mila, per occupare il territorio giapponese avevano calcolato che sarebbero morti da cinquecentomila a un milione di soldati americani e cinque milioni di giapponesi e quindi soltanto con questa bomba atomica l’imperatore perché I soldati volevano ancora combattere fino all’ultimo, I soldati non volevano, invece l’imperatore come diceva Montanelli che viveva tra le nuove le, lui sedeva in alto, dice l’imperatore quando parlò alla radio che registrò, nessuno aveva mai sentito la voce dell’imperatore, in Giappone era un dio vivente, e dice il nostro destino, destino di noi giapponesi è di salvare l0umanità e di salvare l’umanità e di chiedere la pace che la pace sia, quindi la sottopose questa resa come se loro con la resa avessero salvato il mondo [laughs]. I bombardamenti sono sempre stati, siamo sempre lì guerre giuste, guerre ingiuste. I bombardamenti giusti, bombardamenti. Io dico ci sono delle azioni in ognuno di noi, che ognuno di noi ha certi limiti di sopportabilità, certuni hanno dei limiti molto deboli, altri invece hanno dei limiti un pò più e ribelli, siamo fatti ecco, l’ultima cosa che posso dire. Io ero funzionario della Fiat a Torino, allora un sindacalista mi fece delle richieste sindacali. Tra queste richieste sindacali c’era che io come dirigente non dovevo guardare, la legge diceva che il dirigente non può controllare attraverso I vetri, attraverso le cose, dico guardi che io non controllo nessuno da questa vetrata perché se l’operaio o gli operai che sono nel reparto io non li vedo, se poi io devo uscire nel reparto per controllare se questi lavorano o meno quello è un mio diritto e lo posso fare, dico non lo metta perché sembra che io, ci siamo messi d’accordo, perché oltretutto se io mi metto in una stanza, per me è una, dirigere un reparto significa che il capo sta qui, gli impiegati stan qua e li dirigi, se a me mi metti in una stanza per me è una punizione. Questo mi fece una provocazione davanti a tutti gli altri operai, fa ‘ma se lei ha paura’, no dico ‘io non ho paura’, vuoi mettere questo e mettilo, come avevo previsto tre giorni e mi telefona il capo personale, ‘lei si è messo daccordo!’, ‘ma guardi che non mi sono messo d’accordo, assolutamente, per me mettere una stanza’, ‘no!’, gridava in un modo, dico vabbé, ma cose che non bisognava mai fare, ho detto ‘ma vada al diavolo’ e ho chiuso al telefono, ma non ha avuto il coraggio di dire mi hai mandato al diavolo, non ha avuto il coraggio di dire tu hai mandato al diavolo il capo del personale. Questa è stata la mia vita [laughs]
FC: Va bene, per me va bene. Grazie mille ancora.
LG: Per me a posto così.
FC: Va bene.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Leonardo Gravina
Description
An account of the resource
Leonardo Gravina describes his early life in the rural district of the Puglia region, near the towns of Foggia and S. Giovanni Rotondo. Remembers seeing formations of aircraft taking off and landing from an airfield nearby. Speaks with affection of an American pilot who gave him a flying helmet as a token of friendship. Mentions Padre Pio (then Saint Pio of Pietrelcina) and his gift of reading souls. Stresses how wartime life was comfortable, owing to high prices commanded by grain and the overall abundance of farm products. Recollects the strict discipline of German soldiers, mentions the 1943 Foggia bombings, and describes briefly the invasion of Sicily and the subsequent fall of the fascist regime. Emphasises the social transformations after war, when farming was no longer profitable, and mentions episodes of his later career in the manufacturing industry. Discusses the morality of strategic bombing, holding up Dresden as an unparalleled example. Mentions the different strategic approaches of Allied air forces and justifies them in terms of dissimilar national characters. Comments on the figure of Arthur Harris.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Francesca Campani
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-12
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Greta Fedele
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:06:48 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AGravinaL170824
PGravinaL1701
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Foggia
Italy--San Giovanni Rotondo
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-08
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
childhood in wartime
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
home front
perception of bombing war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/469/8352/ABaronC160321.1.mp3
385c27519d9e75f7bcf44a0808ce8da5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baron, Charles
C Baron
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baron, C
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Charles Baron.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Anna Hoyles, the interviewee is Charles Baron. The interview is taking place at Mr. Baron’s home in Louth Lincolnshire on 23rd March 2016.
CB: Here we are I volunteered for aircrew 1940, you can have a copy of this [laughs], I think the calling up system was somewhat chaotic at that time because it took the authorities another eight months to send me my calling up papers, the instructions were that I report RAF Uxbridge where I was issued with a uniform for an AC2/UT/AIROBS i.e. that means an Aircraft Hand Second Class under training for Air Observer close brackets, I volunteered for pilot but my eyesight test discovered that I was partly colour blind and that made it no good so err, when ‘cos I oh yes yes well then I’ll read this and then you’ll see what’s what’s useful and what isn’t, umm err, I volunteered for pilot but my eyesight was partly colour blind I remember that I had whilst I was at Uxbridge I was posted to Uxbridge and that’s where I got this funny title, which consisted of roast beef stroke yorkshire pudding followed by plum duff I remember being impressed and pleased that I had volunteered for aircrew as a meal that size and nature had not been at our table for years. I was then given a train ticket to Blackpool and billeted with several others in a seaside boarding house there were about ten of us recruits billeted there and most of them were friendly except well yes that’s nothing, I spent six weeks marching up and down the promenade after six weeks parading at Blackpool we were posted to a receiving wing based at Stratford on Avon I was here for two or three weeks and wasted my time as it was merely a holding post pending a vacancy for proper training at an Initial Training Wing ITW, this was well worth the wait as early in 1941 I was posted to Number Two ITW Initial Training Wing and billeted in Emmanuel College Cambridge I shared students quarters with two other navigation trainees, tell you I had it soft, the courses were for me actual luxury as I realised quite soon that I had what I had missed by not going to university for further education [laughs]. There was some forty of us billeted in different colleges we livened the local populace by marching everywhere at one hundred and forty paces per minute I remember our first drill lesson [laughs] ? standing for attention and being lectured by an instructor who was an obvious Londoner, I remember very ‘stinctly his first instruction relating to smart appearance which was, [how do I read this] ‘now tomorra I want all your buttorns cleaned’ [imitating a London accent] that was exactly what he said [laughs]. At Cambridge we were initiated in the mysteries of air navigation, air recognition, meteorology, morse and similar too many to remember in detail, the course lasted eight weeks I passed the course and was promoted to LAC Leading Aircraft Hand with my daily pay increased from two and six a day to five and six a day [emphasis]. We were then posted to Sealand near Chester for onward transmission by sea to Florida where where we due to spend six months being thoroughly trained in air navigation by Pan Am pretty good hey, on arrival at our embarkation port Avonmouth four of us found that our papers had not been received and the ship left without us [laughs], we were returned to Cambridge and you can imagine our feelings, this time we were billeted at Downing College where we cooled our heels for some weeks before I was called before the CO and asked if I would be prepared to volunteer for a highly secretive and dangerous training [whispers], as I would have been prepared to go anywhere to serve and play some useful part in the war I said ‘yes please sir’, after a day or so I was sent to Air Ministry where I was given some very odd looking diagrams to study and provide answers to various questions passed out and satisfactorily shortly after my return to Downing College I was posted to Prestwick. At Prestwick I was introduced to air born radar instead of six months full training by Pan Am I received six hours air training in a Blenheim 3 which was a twin engined bomber which had been furnished with a radar set for me to study during which time my training consisted of using the radar to instruct my pilot to follow and close with a target aircraft at night until he could actually see the target I was using a radar set to do this you see and I had to understand how to operate it the object would have then been to be able to shoot down the target I was passed [coughs] above average and then promoted to Sergeant Navigator Radar with a daily pay increase from five and six to, you’ll never guess, thirteen shillings a day [whispers] this equated to four pound eleven a week and was more than I had ever earned as a civilian [laughs], had I been passed average I would have been posted to an operational training unit for further training before being posted to an operational squadron I was bypassed because I passed above average, I think I told you, I was sent to Canadian Operational Squadron at Accrington Northampton er Northumberland where I spent several interesting months, our operation area was the North East included such targets as Newcastle and Durham so I expected a good deal of activity however compared to Southern England it was [?] and disappointing, I teamed with a Canadian pilot Sergeant Hughie Gorr we became very close friends and after the war we exchanged home visits, he and I stayed together as a crew for about three years. He proved his worth as a talented pilot on many occasions but one in particular sticks in my memory that happened quite soon after I was posted to Accrington the squadron oh yes this was Number 406 Canadian Squadron also maintained, you can have a copy of this photocopy of this no problem at all, also maintained a detachment at Scorton near Catterick in Yorkshire where all crews spent about one week in four, on one occasion we were on patrol at night there when one of our two engines failed and Hughie said ‘I think I can make it on one engine if you give me a course for base’ I duly did so but very shortly afterward the other engine failed [laughs] and Hughie said ‘bail out’ I opened the rear hatch and was halfway out of the aircraft with my parachute on and Hughie said ‘ooh I can see base and I am going to make a glide landing’ bearing in mind that this was dead of night his confidence was a tribute to his piloting skill when we less than a thousand feet and too late to bail out he said ‘oh lord it’s a dummy’ in other words a dummy was a false runway close to the proper runway and built to mislead enemy activity, I reluctantly climbed back in the aircraft er closed the rear hatch and settled down to await my fate it was then considered to control the engineless aircraft but kept the wheels up and made a crash landing in a field roughly fifty yards from a small wood I then climbed out [whispers] with a bruised knee, and that was that was quite an experience, er as enemy air activity was very low the squadron was posted for a year to Scotland not far from Prestwick where I had received my radar baptism this posting was also not terribly exciting and when volunteers were called to venture overseas to join the Middle East battle Hughie and I were happy to do so we were then posted to Wilmslow in Cheshire to be fully kitted out for overseas duties and then to Avonmouth where we boarded a steamer bound for Freetown in Sierra Leone our ship was part of a convoy on arrival at Freetown after surviving a few submarine scares we then boarded another steamer bound for Takoradi in the Gold Coast what was called the Gold Coast er that’s now Ghana of course, which went without convoy protection but fortunately we had no attacks from enemy submarines, we learnt while on board to Takoradi that all the passengers were aircrew and that the RAF had built an airport there for the purpose of ferrying fighter aircraft to the war zone in the Middle East, the aircraft had been shipped separately, this is very interesting, in knock down form for assembly in Takoradi the reason for this was that the Germans controlled the Mediterranean and it was considered to wasteful to fly direct aircrew had to wait a few days while the aircraft arrived and were assembled and then flown in convoy to the war zone across Africa, the route from Takoradi to the base in Egypt called Abu Suweir was a long one and we had to stop several times for refuelling and this meant overnight stops at Maiduguri Nigeria, El Fasher in Darfur, Wadi Halfa on the Southern Nile and finally up the Nile to Abu Suweir that’s how we got to Egypt. Unfortunately when we landed at Takoradi I was bitten [laughs] I was bitten by an annapolis mosquito and spent the next three weeks in a military hospital recovering from malaria this meant that Hughie and I missed our convoy and so our Beaufighter was three weeks late we were further delayed because our plane suffered a magneto drop and we had to leave our convoy for an emergency landing in another strip at El Geneina this meant we had to wait another week or so while a replacement engine was flown out to us finally we flew on our own the rest of the way by the time we arrived in Egypt, Montgomery had won the battle of El Alamein, it’s the story of my life [turning pages over] experience. We stayed in Egypt with 89 Squadron for about six months 89 was commanded by a well known commander called Wing Commander Stainforth he was a magnificent pilot and 89th Squadron he was given what was about three times the size of a normal RAF Squadron having a detachment as far away as Malta, Abu Seweir was comparatively quiet and our duties were largely uneventful patrols though I do remember coming out of cloud over Alexandria being mistaken by a JU88 by our own Mediterranean fleet and hastily removing ourselves from a concentrated anti-aircraft barrage. Now around the time this time Hughie was seconded temporarily for ferry duties and I was a spare navigator a squadron leader pilot who had completed his tour of Whitley bombers was posted to 89 Squadron to learn to fly Beaufighters the aircraft Beaufighter and I acted as navigator while Hughie was away Squadron Leader Clements had great difficulty in mastering the Beaufighter which tended to swing to starboard on take off and landing one day we took off as usual but squadron leader temporarily lost control and we were at right angles from the runway before we had got to the end we then wondered around the sky while I showed him our various points of interest Port Said, Alexandria and so on and eventually we approached our own airfield and he began his descent on landing he failed to control the swing tendency but this time on the landing the aircraft was once again at right angles to the runway [laughs] and heading straight for to a Hurricane which was occupied the Hurricane was, its’s engine, where are we, was running because the chocks had not been removed because the people who pulled the chocks away the aircraft er yeah the airmen who pulled them away couldn’t quite rightly saw that if they stayed where they are they would get killed by us you see, so anyway, I still remember I had not yet been [?] so he so that he was stationery I still remember the look of absolute panic on the face of the hurricane pilot as we removed his starboard wing [laughs] can you imagine that as we went by [laughs] the nearest the furthest away he could get so yes so fortunately he didn’t get hurt at all the squadron leader added to our problems by turning around in ever decreasing circles and the undercarriage finally collapsed on the ground we stopped I had a slightly bruised knee for the second time I also remember Squadron Leader Clements saying ‘I’m terribly sorry flight sergeant’ I was a flight sergeant by then my own reply had better not be printed. Fortunately Hughie returned the following day there was very little action around this time and when early in 1943 we were asked to volunteer for a three month detachment in India where the Japanese were reputed to be bombing Calcutta heavily and frightening the local population many of whom ran panic stricken into the jungle we gladly responded positively the volunteer flight of eight Beaufighters was commanded by Flight Lieutenant George Nottage a first class chap he and I became great friends after the war, after an interesting albeit uneventful side trip Dum Dum Airport Calcutta with various stops in the Gulf and in Bombay we arrived and moved to RAF airfield at Bicarchi [?] we then found that the enormous Japanese bombing turned out to be three Mitsubishi bombers flying at night with their lights on, I’m not joking, and carrying antipersonnel bombs, the night after we arrived the first of our eight crews on night readiness was piloted by a chap called Flight Sergeant Pring sure enough three Japanese bombers in formation with their lights on approached Calcutta and Pring duly shot them all down in four minutes his radar navigator W Warrant Officer Phillips didn’t have a much to do, two nights later three more Japanese bombers approached Calcutta this time shot down by an Australian flight lieutenant, the name escapes me, and his radar navigator Warrant Officer Moss unfortunately Moss could not have been looking at his radar set at the time because he overlooked the Jap fighter that was shadowing his three bomber friends and he shot the Beaufighter down happily happily, there is no tragedy in this so unhurt when they crash landed they were picked up by Burmese Irregulars [?] called Force 136 who looked after them and they were taken to the nearest allied post and in due course returned to us, thereafter Japanese night bombing ceased because they didn’t know about radar you see radar was so important to us enough in the war it was one of the keys that got us the win, I forgot to mention on arrival at Dum Dum we were told that as were now under RAF India Command our service was to last three years and not three months [laughs] you can imagine our reply [laughs] but I wouldn’t tell you. Consequently we spent most of our time in Burma what is now Bangladesh we were based in Chittagong resorted to intruder flights over Burma where our targets were mainly trains and convoys of lorries these were fairly long flights and I remember in particular Rangoon and Mandalay we also dropped the occasional senior officers to Infall [?] where the 14th Army were besieged the airport there used to be attacked during the day but we managed without incident, er one hot summer day what’s all this about, oh yes this is interesting, one hot summer day in 1943 I was laying on my Charpoy [?], do you know what Charpoy it’s a straw bed, er where am I oh yes, er perspiring freely, wh en an officer came to my billet and told me to quote his own words ‘George wants you’ and I asked ‘why?’ and the officer didn’t know ‘I don’t know go and ask him’ I duly presented myself at the officers mess and in due to course to George Flight Lieutenant Knowledge Flight Lieutenant Nottage came to the door and said ‘oh hello Charlie move your move your stuff in here you’re an officer now’ that’s how I got promoted this was the sum total of my officer training it’s silly isn’t it [laughs] but it’s true [laughs]. As an officer in addition to my navigation duties I was given various jobs i.e. savings officer, officers mess, bar officer and entertainments officer, every Friday I sat at the end of the airmen’s weekly pay parade and collected such amounts as such as each airman gave paid from his weekly wage to be handed a savings certificate in return for his donation which I then banked. My bar officer duties consisted of replenishing stocks from weekly visits to Calcutta and setting prices for all the different types of alcohol initially I made myself very unpopular by raising the prices but this changed completely when I opened the bar for free for the five days around Christmas, I am considered to be responsible for the squadron leader admin acquiring DT’s. My most memorable experience as an entertainments officer was when I learnt that Vera Lynn was visiting the area this was just after the end of the war in Europe actually and Egypt and so on, I made an emergency flight to Calcutta and at short notice given an appointment and I successfully persuaded her to come to Bicarchi and giver a concert there which was of course highly successful despite the fact the only date we could offer was the Sunday at which she said ‘well it’s me day off really but I’ll do it for the boys’ what a wonderful person she is. Shortly after my pilot and various other officers having completed their flying duties were flown home, my flying duties were also completed but instead of being flown home I was promoted to Flight Lieutenant and posted to Basci [?] Air Quarters in Delhi there I was initially responsible for organising the various training headquarters throughout India for Indian Air Force Ground Crew, excuse me, nearly finished. After a few months I was transferred to the organisational department with the grand title of ORG1A here I was once again promoted to squadron leader and was involved with planning the invasion of Singapore unfortunately somebody dropped an atom bomb and ruined all my work subsequently I handled various aspects of construction on airfields under our control and exceptionally after the war ended this included the Indian Officer Building of British Overseas Aircraft. At long last I was posted home with my wife, not this one [laughs], Winnie was a WAF corporal whom I had met in Accrington years ago we’d been in correspondence since then and she followed me to India via Ceylon at the first opportunity but the disparity in our ranking met with some disapproval but we still married in Delhi and gave a popular ceremonial drinking party on arrival in England in 46 after due leave with my new family [?] er oh yes well after that I mean you don’t want to know you won’t
AH: I wouldn’t mind knowing what you did after the war?
CB: Oh right, my work at Air Ministry was a member of the British bombing survey I was posted to Air Ministry to assist in the analysis of the different bombing targets as instructed by Air Marshall Bomber Harris you’ve heard of him, his policy of bombing towns to break the morale of the German people was considered [coughs] correctly in my view as wrong both strategically and morally because the carriage that resulted the carnage that resulted failed completely to break the German civilian aircraft German civilian morale and cost our Bomber Command fifty per cent casualties the highest casualty rate of any arm of any service in allied command that’s true Bomber Command, well I had an elder brother he didn’t last there you go. On my release later in 1946 the RAF paid for a short course in business admin and a posting for two years, do you still want to hear that, at six pounds per week [laughs] er in a repetition woodworking company specialising in turnery where I was supposed to continue my business training in fact I was in effect an underpaid office manager my boss was so pleased with me that he doubled my pay to twelve pounds per week ‘cos he only paid six of it and the government paid the other however when the two years were completed and the government subsidy of six pounds per week ceased his attitude changed during this time I qualified as a Chartered Secretary my workload kept on increasing and after blazing row I left, still go on. It took me a few months to find a decent job during this time I kept the family in funds by selling insurance door to door you know life insurance door to door for the United Friendly Insurance Company, the branch I worked for used to give a ballpoint every week to the salesman who sold the most insurance during the week after five weeks I had acquired five ballpoint pens and the inducement for all salesmen ceased, during this time I kept on answering advertisements for office managers as a result of which I recognised I acquired a recognised office managers job in Thetford ooh six hundred and fifty a year getting all right, Winnie and Rosalind remained in the rented flat in London for a few months as it took me some time to find suitable rented accommodation in Thetford, er well nothing there really nothing. We stayed in Thetford until 1969 1949 sorry the company I served manufacturing company raw material moulded pulp the raw material was discarded cardboard boxes which by immersion into water produced articles such as baby baths, trays and flower bowls we were in fact the largest producer of babies baths in England, it had another division in a branch factory in Newmarket using vulcanised fibre to make two thirds of Britain’s coal miners helmets at that time the miners workforce in the UK numbered seven hundred thousand, one of the papier mache formed the basis for motorcycle crash helmets which we sold to a firm called Helmets Limited for the vast sum of two shillings and ten pence, when the Duke of Edinburgh initiated the idea that all cyclists should wear crash helmets I persuaded my company to market a new product as we had the equipment and the technique to make completed cyclists and motorcyclists helmets, I was given carte blanche by my boss to devise a new production line and advertise and market the product which I named the Centurion this product rapidly became the most successful of all work and profit doubled during that time I qualified by correspondents course as an AC as a cost and works accountant now enjoys a more prestigious title a cost and management accountant ACMA the company was owned by an absentee board of directors I was congratulated by the chairman who said that as a result of what I had done about the crash helmet I would be given a bonus of one hundred pounds this resulted in my leaving the company and taking a job in Calcutta as chief cost accountant for the largest group of paper mills in India at three times my previous salary, oh you don’t know anymore it goes on you know, well basically after that oh yes of course I was in India, gr oooh, oh yes that could be interesting actually. I left my family with Winnie daughter Rosalind aged eight then she’s now sixty nine now she’s seventy no rising seventy still going strong.
Other: No, no you mean Winnie you mean no no no you don’t mean Ros.
CB: I mean Rosalind her daughter is nearly seventy yes that’s right, er how could she be nearly seventy then? Oh yes of course she can but I’m ninety five. In Aiden I bought a blue Rolex Oyster Royal for fourteen pounds which I still have, [laughs] must be worth a hundred or two, we landed in Bombay proceeded by rail to Calcutta here we were met taken by road to Chandannagar [?] which is on the Hooghly River about thirty miles away where we billeted in a very large flat in a compound with other paper mill executives, errr well nothing very well yes [laughs] well I’ll show you how it changed my life I was soon advised that as cost accountant I was responsible for all the accounts and I controlled the stores at that time two large paper mills the largest being in Chittiga and the other where I was based in Chandannagar [?] I was provided with a chauffeur driven limousine which enabled me to visit both mills every day Monday to Friday at each of which there was a storekeeper controlling very valuable stores for equipping the papermill machines at each mill a large area was allocated for storing of thousand tonnes of bamboo sticks for bamboo we made the paper out of the bamboo, ah and having been cut down by contractors from miles around the bamboo was weighed on arrival before being unloaded and the moisture content which varied from freshly cut forty percent moisture down to seasoned around ten percent was weighed at the main at the mill weighbridge and the contractors were paid only for the seasoned weight this was obviously capable of corruption between the contractor and the weighbridge keeper I very soon found that corruption was endemic in the end this was an example I appointed a [?] the weighbridge keepers who were Indian but understood and spoke English as at the time I spoke no Urdu one of the weighbridge keepers said to me ‘don’t worry Barron saab while I am in your backside no harm shall come to you’ it was impossible to sack anybody at the as the union was very strong so I merely had him sidestepped the other stores housed in large buildings which were locked up out of working hours by the storekeeper this was also subject to corruption and as the chief engineer British was also corrupt I found in due course that control was virtually impossible, the Head Office was in Calcutta and my own boss whose title was simply the boss my own boss he was number one and I was number four answered my query on the subject of corruption by saying tongue in cheek ‘you can take anything which you can eat or drink but nothing which crackles or rings’ there you go, social life was good especially for me, after a few months Winnie took Rosalind home to England we’d already booked Rosalind for a place in boarding school I’d taken the oh yes I’d taken the opportunity to play my violin and in fact I joined the Calcutta Symphony Orchestra as deputy lead violinist the orchestra was composed largely of amateurs like myself and it was conducted by a Welsh Englishman David Jacobs whose family owned several jute mills as Calcutta was on the world circuit of prestigious soloists and I was the only fairly knowledgeable musician we occasionally entertained famous names such as [?] and I was placed next to him keep him entertained at dinner in the luxurious head office dining room [?] and I took to each other and we had a most stimulating discussion about the life of a professional musical soloist he invited me to call on him at the Savage Club in London whenever I managed to get back to England unfortunately he died before my first home leave, I did call on David Jacob’s family in London to go and see, err [flicks through pages], oh yes [laughs] the work conditions were not without interest and occasional excitement as for example when my office was invaded by some hundreds of bamboo coolies demanding a rise in wages this was understandable because they were quote “outcasts” unquote and were at the lowest possible rate of pay thirty rupees per month about ten shillings per week of fifty pence as we now call it my hands were tied but I did manage to have their pay increased as a result of my representation on their behalf at head office this put them on equal pay with the next cast rank above whose member well the members were not at all pleased. I was rather more for more fortunate than the chief engineer of a large engineering company in Calcutta when his workforce through him in the boiler [laughs], as the executive responsible for labour relations throughout both paper mills I was chairman of the grading committee, er oh yes mmm, you don’t want to know about all that, oh yes well during this time yes I got a Dear John letter from Winnifred telling me she was leaving me and wanted to marry my best friend I was naturally devastated there had been no hint of this before I left England, my six months furlough was not due for about another year but my company were good enough to bring my furlough forward for a few months during this time I managed to divorce Winnifred and put Rosalind into a good private school and then er when I came back I had time to spare and I it was six months you see and after a couple of months I got a temporary job in National Farmers by the National Farmers Union as a representative of Joe Nickerson and Company have you heard of them well it’s very big locally er it’s a seed growing company which offered to pay me adequately for introducing a new lawn seed called “Agrosstistolernepherous” [?] to retail seed sundries man and they gave me free rein to go where I wished and call on retail seed sundries man and after, I’m cutting this short, after a few weeks I decided to report and after initial annoyance that I had not sent them weekly reports Nickerson were delighted with the number of seed sundries men I had appointed added to their customers, the annual summer dinner dance I was invited to attend as their guest the organiser was the managing director’s PA and who introduced herself to me during the course of the evening her name was Janet Franklin and we were married about one month afterwards, unfortunately I received an urgent call from my Indian employers to return to India immediately a flight [coughs] a flight had been booked for me to return on Christmas Day which meant I had to leave Janet behind for about two months while she had while she put her local affairs in order and she joined me a eighteen months later ahhh [long sigh]. I soon realised that the salary I received in India could be equalled with the greatest of difficulty and required considerable initiative and therefore initially having qualified for management accountant I decided to use it in the field of management consultancy so the first company I joined was a firm of charlatans and I left them to try my luck as a self employed consultant at this I was reasonably successful but my plants were rarely close to our home in Sussex being largely in Scotland and Northern England and this necessitated almost continued absence so when Jan Janice, not this lady, was hospitalised following a miscarriage we decided on her release to look for a home much closer to her family living in Grimsby and near Louth where she had been educated so then sixty one sold the house er in Sussex where we lived um for seven thousand five hundred pounds er and then we bought The Elms no we bought The Elms for seven thousand five hundred I think we sold the Sussex one for about the same The Elms was a large six bedroom house here in Louth er and then I was introduced to a gentleman called Ken Addison who was a general manager of a polythene film extrusion company owned by Pickford Paper Mills Ken was very anxious to run his own company but had no capital neither did I however in my travels I had made friends with a well to do business man named Anthony Jowell who was prepared to invest three thousand pounds and we needed about ten thousand although I had no money of my own my financial reputation was such that I was offered three thousand by the bank which was then the National Provincial Bank and Addison had a friend in the scrap metal motoring business and I persuaded his friend to buy three thousand to buy one thousand shares and make a shareholder for three thousand pounds and he did so the odd two thousand shares I presented to Ken Addison and he was the MD and I was the financial director that’s when we made some money real money, er do you want to know how [laughs], got pages yet, is that enough?
AH: Yeah [laughs] thank you its very interesting
CB: Cos I made another I started another company double glazing after this we sold our company that was where made some real money the first time but do you know what taxation was then? Maximum taxation of anything over one hundred thousand earnings was eighty five percent and capital gains that was the cheapest way out that was forty percent so when we sold our company we had to give the government forty percent of it doesn’t happen now its about fifteen not fair is it.
Other: If you remember tax on unearned tax on unearned income as opposed to earned income was ninety eight percent.
CB: Yeah the maximum
Other: Can you believe it?
CB: Ninety eight percent for unearned income if you were a rich person that’s the sort of money that they ought to be charging the very rich now but they don’t do they? Well that’s about roughly it oh yes the other company was double glazing
Other: Yes
CB: Yes Primo Windows
Other: Primo Windows
CB: Of course you don’t come from this area and I sold that after ten years having got this three thousand pounds and I sold that for another three hundred thousand ten years later so there we are okay.
AH: And where were you from originally?
CB: Pardon
AH: And where were you from originally?
CB: Islington.
AH: Really.
CB: Yes, 17 Chapel Market second floor above a shop of a er shop anyway where I shared two rooms with my mother, father, two brothers and a sister that was where I started.
AH: And why did you want to join the RAF?
CB: Where did?
AH: Why did you join the RAF?
CB: Well I I thought what a marvellous thing what a wonderful thing to be able to do fly like that
Other: And there was a war on too.
CB: Yes and there was a war on it was either RAF [burps] or army or navy and not being a very good swimmer navy was out for me and the army I didn’t fancy being in those blasted trenches all the time and the RAF sounded much more interesting and they accepted me so there we are [takes a drink], so I can let you have a copy of the relevant stuff if you want it [sifts through papers] er
Other: I can print some off
CB: Yes can you print pages four, five,
Other: Yes I’ll just go get it turned on
CB: Six and seven and eight I think that will do. And er at that time er I was given a job with the British Bombing Survey Unit er what the start of it actually the chap in charge was an air marshall I mean he was this was to have to investigate an air chief marshall’s duties so I I was I was a senior assistant to the bod [?] I forgot who it was now it was a very very well quite a well known name.
Other: Well that was Harris wasn’t it?
CB: No no that was the chap we were investigating.
Other: Oh right yes okay. So which is two cups I think they were actually these are clean.
CB: No these are new ones.
Other: Yes they are, there you go.
AH: Thank you.
Other: Did you have sugar? Lots of musical terms on there [laughs]
CB: Yes, er I can’t the trouble is my memory is not good it really isn’t and I.
Other: Very good you’ve just got ninety five years of memories to to drag out that’s the thing it’s the hard drive that’s full.
CB: What?
Other: The hard drive is full.
CB: Yes [laughs] I reckon.
AH: So what did you do exactly when you were there?
CB: When, when? I was well I had an office and a secretary I think yeah I did and I er I visited a I forget where a lot of information about how many aircraft which type of aircraft had had a percentage more er knocked down by the Germans and so on all sorts of things like that a lot of statistics and the statistic showed um cos I said the best things to do is to look at all the places that we were told to bomb by Harris and what the results were and he kept on um er he kept on giving the giving air command giving er fighter command the instructions to go bomb towns more than military targets and that’s why I said we killed a lot of German civilians and as a result of that that was part of my report when I said that we we er um unnecessarily went for these and put as my real reason which wasn’t quite my real reason the fact that we lost so many aircraft of our own fruitlessly that was really the sum total of what I found and he was disgraced and sent sent er but I wasn’t the only one there we were we were there was about a good half dozen of us going different areas and so on and so forth it was an important thing British Bombing Survey Unit there I had it all written down there so if you want to know [laughs] that’s what I was mainly in charge of or partly in charge anyway all right.
AH: And what reaction did you get to your report?
CB: Report well the report was then read by the top brass in Air Ministry and in due course he got the sack [laughs] well he was er he was dismissed to some very minor post in South Africa and er had no real power or duties after that and it’s only recently that some some idiots have started to resurrect him er as what a wonderful good chap he was but he really wasn’t there you are history can be distorted sometimes.
AH: And was the general view of like your family what did they think of Harris at the time?
CB: He was well they knew nothing any apart from the fact that I had lost a brother who was a navigator on Lancaster’s er I was lucky I was stuck where well I started before he did er and er didn’t get involved in bombing I was night fighting and intruding [?] and you were fine in there
AH: Where was your brother stationed?
CB: Pardon.
AH: Where was your brother stationed?
CB: Oh stationed in England and er his grave which we have visited is at er
Other: Hanover
CB: Hanover in Germany.
Other: That was very emotional wasn’t it?
CB: It was yes yes, he was he was a brainy fellow too and er he was a much brighter bloke more intelligent fellow than his elder brother who was a bit of a well nothing important shall we say yes.
AH: What was your brother called?
CB: Well he was originally christened Emmanuel but then people called him Manny and he didn’t like that so he rechristened himself Ernest and he was then called Ernie [laughs] in the same way as well I might as well admit I was born and christened my parents christened me Cyril and I didn’t like Cyril particularly in the air force where they made fun of it so I said my name was Charles and I have been Charles ever since now well it began with C so that was enough [laughs].
Other: You couldn’t do that nowadays could you [laughs] in fact it is much easier to change your surname than your given name.
CB: Well there you go.
AH: And what was it like working with when you started training on radar did you know anything about it before?
CB: Nothing whatso, well nobody did it was a high ever so secretive and as I say it was a very very important arm of the of the armed forces because we got to it before the Germans did and in consequence our our bomber um our defence night fighter defence er and day fighter for that matter ‘cos you could see them from oh even miles away so then [?] you could trace them it starts off with a ground office you’ve seen those photographs of WAFS with the stick in their hand [laughs] you can see their underclothes and there all round the table pointing at things and these are the directions that they are pointing at because you got the table was the map and they pointed to all and were told as they were told they pointed towards them and it was all done by the people controlling the radar because the radar it was a way of controlling um it would start off with a name radio direction finding that was what it was you see and they are all around us you can’t feel them or anything but there they all are and it was fantastic I wish I could remember the chap who discovered how to use them because he got highly decorated for it I think we met himah what was his name no good if it comes to be I’ll let you know but you can find that out anyway.
AH: Was it difficult to learn?
CB: We didn’t have much time did you, er I um my sole instruction of reading I had to read two tubes were two air tubes and various funny pictures upon them er one the left hand one had a line there straight along and that was the line started with the ground and ended and ended much in line with the heavens and if you were at ten thousand feet for example a little blip occurred at ten thousand it was all measured so that you would know if he was above you or below you and also how much above or how much and the distance and then you had another one like that another line like that and and there it was to the right of the left of the line either they were east or west as you were flying and however near you were or near they were to you or however further away and the idea was for us to move to use the radar which we could direct which we could find where if there was an aircraft in front of us within our our distance and our distance at that time was above er the distance we were above the ground so the higher we went the longer the tine the longer the line and this little blip was you could have a half dozen blips er above or below and there was there was also you could tell friend from foe by because they had a little er piece of equipment that once the little thing you looked at looked for and once you got the line you tried to follow it and catch it catch up with it then your pilot who had who had in a Beaufighter ohhh um four canon and six machine guns you could then shoot it down and he wouldn’t even know what hit him you see and a lot of people did that when the time came I was quite good at it as it so happens er it was as a sergeant a flight sergeant although we were on duty a lot when the commanding officer or senior officer came and there was a raid on he took over and he then went up when there was an aircraft there to get shotdown before we got a chance at it we used to get very cross about that but we weren’t officers [laughs] but there we are there all sorts of things I could teach you it would take years.
AH: Did you have to stare at it all the time?
CB: No no if the er we had loudspeakers attached to our ears and if the command if we heard there was ‘action is required’ or whatever we then we then stared we then stared at but we used it for all sorts of other reasons we used it for I had a map in front of me and if I wanted to get to a particular place a particular place say we were fifty miles away I could er I could use the radar to check where the objective was roughly and then get closer to it and closer to it until the pilot could see it so it was quite interesting – ahh I can’t remember it all that well it was a long time ago.
AH: What were the Beaufighters like?
CB: Oh great stuff um I’ll show you one.
Other: Oh right where is it its not a very big one
CB: There’s your Beaufighter [shows a picture] the pilot was there and I was there okay and we communicated by radar by telephone that’s it very manoeuvrable it was oh yeah and he was thank heaven for me he was a first class pilot and he seemed to think I was a decent navigator so we got on well in fact we got to know each other and he visited us after the war and we visited him in Canada, yes but he’s dead now died of natural causes.
AH: How come you went to a Canadian Squadron?
CB: That was when at the time it was the nearest definite one that was available that’s all I cannot tell you why I was picked in the Canadian Squadron or not I was very pleased about it eventually it didn’t make any difference to me whether it was Canadian or English but the Canadians were a good lot they really were, yeah I imagine that they were ones that had been they had been fully equipped and were and had so they were granted an airfield and off we went.
AH: And when you were flying to Rangoon and Mandalay were they Beaufighters as well?
CB: Oh yeah yes they were Beaufighters as well very very serviceable aircraft then they were outgrown in speed er and er by the Mosquitoes you heard of the Mosquitoes and I but the last couple of months they finally because we were the forgotten air force really out in India um we had to put up with Mos with Beaufighters for two and a half years really and then for a few a couple of months that was all I was I converted to Mosquitoes and then they said ‘no you are an officer now we’ve got an office for you now in Delhi go there so we went there do as you are told’.
Other: It was in Delhi where everybody ran screaming into the when the Japanese came over everybody ran screaming into the woods in Delhi.
CB: No from Calcutta which is east east they came and they took over Burma
Other: Oh yes
CB: And eventually they couldn’t they didn’t take over what is it now part of India called Bangladesh no it’s separate now which was Bengal which was at this end of Burma and so they never took that over completely although the British Army had a had an army which was defended they defended itself for who what was the number of that [?] well it’s in there somewhere I think anyway and er they defended themselves but they didn’t couldn’t defend them from the Japanese taking over Burma and that was when we had to fight from in the air to get it back and at that time the east part er the north east that way we managed to hang on to that bit and I was stationed at Chittagong you’ve heard of Chittagong look at the map and you’ll get a rough idea I suppose it would interest everybody it would interest at that time all we wanted to do was get home of course but three years [laughs] – and as I always did what I was told I got promoted [laughs].
Other: Don’t believe a word of it [laughs]
AH: Could you describe a flight for example to Rangoon?
CB: Could I describe a flight most of the time it was boring it just went boom boom boom for a thousand miles or so from where we were was it no it wasn’t quite as far as that it was about six or seven hundred miles oh yeah easy um that’s right then we had to find where we told to shoot at which we did through radar [laughs] and fly back unhurt we were lucky.
AH: What did you do in your spare time?
CB: How dare you [laughs] I don’t know what I did in my spare time probably got drunk half the time we had quite a lot to drink but that was in our spare time we were not supposed to well we had those of us who survived anyway had the common sense not to get drunk so that we couldn’t operate decently after all we had a family at home.
AH: Were there other people that didn’t though?
CB: Well people did get killed yes, Pring the man who shot those first three he didn’t survive so it was one of those things, ah.
Other: Still there can’t be many more survivors around really.
CB: Oh there are.
Other: No there can’t be you’ve got to be
CB: No not now who are still alive
Other: You’ve got to be seventy five upwards haven’t you at least may be more
AH: Yeah more may be
CB: Oh yes you won’t have any youngsters, I was always twenty years younger than the century very easy to remember.
AH: And was your father in the First World War?
CB: He was but er he wasn’t English he was Rumanian and my mother was Lithuanian and I am a Jew as you’ve gathered.
AH: So when did they come to Britain?
CB: Oh they came they came to Britain from their relative countries before the First World War before the First World War to escape the er Pogroms, Russian Russian and Rumanian Pogroms and er they had relatives that I lost touch with I’m afraid a long time ago they had relatives in Manchester and er and er in London so er we ended up in London and er I cannot understand this but we ended up in London but the people who to be honest I can’t explain it but the people who they got in touch with who they were related both my mother’s relatives related to people in Manchester why my parents and co ended up in London and settled there I just cannot tell you but they did and of course there was quite a large Jewish population in the east end of London and er.
Other: Anyway London was nearer to Europe.
CB: London was nearer to Europe so it was easier to get to I suppose yes, there is so much of my early years I just cannot understand the domestic situation all I know is that we were not very well off you see there we are.
AH: Were you aware of the build up were you like Cable Street and?
CB: Cable Street
AH: Yes
CB: Cable Street that was Jewish yes that was Jewish but we didn’t live there that was the east end for some reason or other we settled in I no there was in Chapel Street London it was a Rumanian Jewish settlement and it was a market and they used to have stalls stalls stalls rather outside shops some of them quite a few of them had er either owned or rented the shop and were quite well to do but my parents did have a shop and had to rent a stall so there we are no we weren’t very well off shall we say [laughs] there you go it happens.
Other: So the remote chance of you being in North Lincolnshire at this point in time amazing isn’t it.
CB: Well as I say that that you’ll find in there as to where why we came to Lincolnshire why I came to Lincolnshire we didn’t come together my first wife had gone off with my best friend and my second wife I hadn’t met until I er was asked by these Nickersons who were very very wealthy farmers in where we are very wealthy now and er by Nickersons to er and I volunteered I put an advert in the Times ‘cos I’d done the divorcing bit and I had four months to spare before I went back from my six months furlough back to my accounting firm in India you see and er it was then I put this advert in the Times saying I had this four months did anybody want to employ me and they did having interviewed me here some in Grimsby yes and given me this job er particularly it was rather nice for them no no no this was a long time after after [?] I’m getting myself confused I’m sorry but er
Other: You know there used to be in the time when lots of people worked in India and other places and they would normally do two and a half years overseas and then come back for six months.
CB: This is what I did.
Other: This is what he did and I’ll tell you they were a bit of a menace sometimes because they were coming back with nothing to do for six months can you imagine it.
CB: Well as I say.
Other: Particularly if they didn’t have families you know.
CB: Well I had lost my first wife I’d divorced my first wife and her daughter had been born then Rosalind who’s alive now but er I’d got her into what’s the name of the top class school?
Other: Roedean
CB: I got her into Roedean so she had a Roedean education and on holiday she used to be with my sister my sister had a home in London and it was quite a nice home her husband was the you see that carpet there in the next room have you had a look at it it’s a very good one he used to be the branch manager of Derry and Toms Carpeting department [laughs] and I got that comparatively cheaply but I suppose probably wouldn’t make much difference now I’ve had it some considerable time but it’s a very nice carpet do you want to have a look at it? [laughs]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Charles Baron
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anna Hoyles
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-21
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:09:51 audio recording
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABaronC160321
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Baron grew up in London and volunteered for aircrew in 1940. He trained as a navigator and on radar. He later volunteered for overseas duties and was posted to India where he flew intruder operations over Burma. After the war he worked training Indian Air Force ground personnel and with the British Bombing Survey. When he left the Air Force he qualified as a Chartered Secretary and worked in India and the UK.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jackie Simpson
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Burma
Egypt
Great Britain
India
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
aircrew
Asian heritage
Beaufighter
Blenheim
entertainment
faith
final resting place
forced landing
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
navigator
perception of bombing war
radar
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/483/8366/PBullockWEJ1601.1.jpg
e627ecce44c4059c1c2fa2c19bc04d9e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/483/8366/ABullockWEJ151030.1.mp3
bd718c14898350813bae5fe77b18d09f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bullock, William
William Edward James Bullock
W E J Bullock
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bullock, WEJ
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant William Bullock (1916 - 2017, 566069 Royal Air Force) and a memoir. He served in Egypt and Iraq before serving as an engineering officer at RAF East Kirkby and Coningsby.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by William Bullock and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles [AH]. The interviewee is William Bullock [WB]. The interview is taking place at Mr Bullocks home in Horncastle, Lincolnshire on 30th October 2015.
[noise]
WB : What?
PH: You can start now.
WB: Well, What? I was born in Marshfield.
PH: Yeah.
WB: Yeah in Gloucestershire, September 30th 1916, That’s right. And after two or three years we moved into Bath, and eventually I got a scholarship to the secondary school, and, in 1932 I took the entrance exam for the RAF apprentices, and I got through alright. When I went to Holton as an apprentice for three years and I passed out in 1935, and went to Altarum[?]. It was an ex-naval Air Station, way back, and we kept time with the ships bell in the guard room [chuckle]. in the guard room. Anyway, in February ’37, well, we got posted to Egypt for Florin[?] Training School and when the war started we moved from Egypt to Havaneer[?] in Iraq. And in, I think it was in May, May ’41 the Iraqis were trying to get us out of their country and let the Germans in, and they surrounded the camp and they shelled us and bombed us for five days, day and night, bombs and shells. And, anyway, we gave a good account of ourselves and when we killed a lot of them, and in the end they decided to pack up and go. Then in, well, about May I came home, and I went to Cranwell on a Coastal Command Station, and anyways, was there for about eight months. Then I got moved to Wigsley which was is a Bomber Command training unit, training pilots for Lancasters and whatnot. And, ow, I think that would be May, May ’41 was it? I, I decided to take commission and I was commissioned as an engineer officer and I moved around various places. I did a year at East Kirkby as the Technical Adjutant doing all the paperwork and whatnot. And, anyway, I did a year there, and then I moved to Metheringham, 106 Squadron, and anyway I was there, they, they worked me fairly hard and the engineer, the group engineer came down and he said ‘Right, I want to move you Coningsby, to pathfinder squadrons, forty Lancasters. Do you think you can cope?’ I said: ‘I’ll do my best sir.’ He said ‘Right, get there on Monday. You can be a Flight Lieutenant on Friday.’ Anyway, I got there and I worked hard for, oh, three, four months and always kept me forty Lancasters going. And well then, of course, the war packed up. The Japs, the Germans packed init, and I moved to Strubby we were’re living in tents and we were waiting to go to Okinawa to bomb Japs. And then the Japs packed in, so we moved, I was there for a bit and then I we got moved, got posted to a unit over by Chester, 54 RUP. And I moved in, I reported in to senior officer. And I said: ‘RUP?’ He said: ‘Yeah.’ I said: ‘ Well, RUP? R U Repair Unit, P what’s planned.’ He said: ‘Oh bulldozers, excavators and that sort of stuff.’ ‘Oh, I’m an aircraft engineer, I’m going back to Strubby.’ He said: ‘You’re bloody well not. You’re gonna Singapore next Wednesday.’ [chuckle] Anyway, we got, I got a fortnight leave before I went to Singapore and in that time I did quick and got married to Mary. Dashed into Lincoln, got a licence from the Bishops, whatever-he-was. And we got married, got married on the Wednesday and on the Saturday recalled from leave and the next Wednesday Singapore [laugh]. And got out there but the unit I was with they never really did get never got off the ground because we, we were supposed to be repairing all sorts of, you know, bull- bulldozers, and excavators and all that sort of stuff [belch] but the machinery never turned up and in the end, in the end they more-or-less disbanded the outfit and they kept me on and all the airfield construction plants, masses of bulldozers and cranes and all that sort of stuff, they said: ‘Right now transfer that to Air Ministry Works Department, the civvy lot’, so I spent all the this time getting this stuff transferred. And then the unit at Hong Kong closed down and all their stuff came down to Singapore by ship. And they said: ‘You will collect it from the docks and take it up to Changi. And it was hard work. Anyway, we managed it, we got it there. And in the meantime, we were living in tents. But anyway, I did me spell there then, and oh what, I decided to relinquish my commission and come home. I weren’t all that happy, so I packed up and came home, and I went back in the ranks as a flight sergeant, and I soon became a warrant officer and I did, oh, I did a spell at Waddington and Hemswell home on and Spalding Moor, and then got moved to Germany, up at Sylt, up on the north Frisian Islands. And I broke[?] there for a couple of years, and came back and went Shrewsbury I’we did six very nice years at Shrewsbury, very nice years at Shrewsbury and then I got moved again up to Lynton-on-Ouse and blow-me-down if they didn’t send me back to Germany [laugh]. At this time we went to Cologne, just on the Zeiderhorf on the outskirts of Cologne. It was very nice and Mary came out and joined me there [sup on tea] and had a couple of very nice years in Germany. And then when we came back, where’d I go? Where’d I go from [pause] I can’t think where I came back to [pause], not sure really. Sure, I can’t remember. Turn that thing off.
[restart of recording]
WB : I can’t remember, what was it year? Anyway, in Germany, I was up at Sylt and there was six of us. It was in the Cold War time, so called. And there was six of us trained on this Enigma machine and, you know, it was quite the thing and one day I got there and they said: ‘Your best blue is, in the back of that van is one of our Enigma machines and it’s got to go headquarters at Buckleburg [?], 200 mile away.’ And they said: ‘You are taking it.’ I said: ‘Oh.’ He said: ‘Your orders are get it there and if you need this, don’t hesitate to use it.’ And they gave me a revolver and a box of ammunition. They said: ‘You have to use it, use it, but that must be got there!’ Anyway, we got it there, no bother, and coming back the following morning the battery packed up. We called into an RAF camp, they didn’t want to know us. A bit later on we met a RAF, an Army camp and called in there and said: ‘Can you help me?’. They said: ‘Yeah.’ Gave me a new battery and then a bit further on the throttle control spring on the engine broke and we couldn’t control it so and I didn’t know what to do and we came to a very nice old lady’s shop, and I said: ‘Stop.’ And I had a flash of inspiration and I went in the lady’s shop and I said: ‘I want some elastic that wide please, so she said there, and I said ‘It’s for my car.’ And we went out and wound it round and round and round these two stops for the throttle spring and we drove 200 miles on a piece of elastic. [chuckle] Anyways, that was in Sylt, then what -
PH: Bill, what, why don’t you tell the story about Old Sarum [?] when you went up with your boss and nearly clocked the cathedral?
WB: Oh yes, that was at Old Sarum. I went up flying with the boss in an open-seater aircraft and it was foggy and it was about 400 feet and the boss said: ‘I’ll come down to 400 feet and we’ll see if we can follow the railway back down to the town’. And we were down there in the fog and I looked and I was I was ‘Look! Look!’ and we were heading straight for the cathedral. The spire was sticking out through the fog and we were going straight for it, and we managed, and somehow we missed it. That was, that was that one. And then another time, we were flying and it, it you were in the back cockpit, you had a harness with a chain going down to the floor to hold you in, and a cable rather, and we were going along and we hit an air pocket and the plane went down and I was out! and the chain tightened and I went ‘Bomp’ and pulled me back down again. [chuckle] So that was two I’d missed.
AH: Could you, could you tell me a bit more about when you were in Iraq?
WB: Iraq?
PH : You were twenty-one, weren’t you?
WB: Yeah, yeah somewhere around there, yes, it was hot there. It was a hundred and, it got to an hundred and thirty in the summer, really hot. And when these, [unclear] and when they were bombing and shelling us, it went on day-and-night for five nights and you slept under your bed and you ‘whee’ [emphasis], you hear the head of shells going over and that one’s going for the bomb dump, and ‘whee’ and anyway we did it for five days and they packed up, and then we went on normal and we heard a different noise. And we said: ‘That’s something different’, and we looked up and there’s three German bombers coming down. And we said: ‘Where the heck have did they come from?’ And the Germans had come into Mosul, it was about a couple of hundred miles up and they came down bombing us. They came at eight in the morning, and four in the afternoon, regular as clockwork, the Germans bombing and, machine guns, anyway. We shot one or two down and in the end they, they packed up, then we followed them back to Mosul and then got them when they landed, with, with our the Hurricanes. We, we got them on the floor and they packed up, so that was peace. And, anyway decided come home. And –
PH: You actually popped a few shots with your gun didn’t you?
WB: Yes. There was a man diving at me with his plane and I managed to get me Lewis loose gun on him, but he didn’t hit me and I didn’t hit him. And we came home and [sup of tea] [loud thump] we came down, we were in Bombay for a couple of weeks waiting for a ship and then we came over to Mombasa and then we came round to Durban, and we had a couple of, eight, weeks in Durban living out in tents on the runway and then we got down to Cape Town and I managed to get ashore and go up Table Mountain. And you go halfway up in the bus to the land and then you got a cable railway for a mile [shudder]. And we got up there, and had a walk round, that was very good. And coming home, we got up to Lagos and I’m afraid I went down with Malaria, and I was in the ships hospital for about a couple of weeks with very, very bad malaria. Didn’t do me any good. And eventually we got home.
PH: Weren’t they going to chuck you overboard?
WB: Well, yes. They, I, I, I met the orderly who dealt with me sometime, I met him in Boston. And he said: ‘When you came in’, he said, ‘you were pale blue and we didn’t think you’d last the night out. So we said we’d chalk you up for over the side in the morning.’ But, anyway they treated me with MNB243 tablets, you know, anti-malaria and no doubt, they brought me round when I was still having quinine six months later to get straightened up with it. Oh.
[restart of recording]
WB: Yeah we’re in Egypt 1937 at Abusir about sixty miles away from Cairo up near the Suez Canal and we had sand yachts there and we used to have races out in the desert. And in ’37 they decided to see if they could get to Cairo. And there were seven yachts and twelve men and a dog and we set off from Abusir and we went across the desert for five days heading for Heliopolis, just outside Cairo, and we got there alright and the, the station commander landed one day, he said: ‘Where are you on the map?’ They said: ‘We don’t have a map, Sir.’ He said: ‘How do know where you are?’ And the leader amongst us, he said: ‘Well, over there,’ he said ‘you can see the Suez hills.’ ‘Yes I can see them.’ he said ‘Towards the end there’s gap.’ And he said: ‘Yes.’ ‘We’re heading for that gap in the Suez Hills.’ And we hit the gap and went down, down to Cairo. Had five nice days in Cairo, out to the Pyramids and all the rest of it. And we came back another way and got back in four days, and it was quite an exciting trip, and we’re were the only people who’ve ever done it. And we had a sailing boat down on the - we were twelve miles away from the bit of lakes on the Suez Canal. We had a sailing boat there and the air was quite nice, you go sailing.
PH: What about when the CO spotted you first?
WB: Eh?
PH: When the CO spotted you arriving over the desert?
WB: Well he came down, landed, he came down more or less, you know two or three times -
PH: But, but he didn’t believe that he could see sails, could he?
WB: Oh yes, we, one night we were camped and we’d seen a plane going on down the bombing raids during the day, and anyway we bedded down for the night and we saw lots of flares going up in the distance. And some of our blokes they walked over to see these flares and there was an army camp there, just based. And they took the CO, and said: ‘What, what are you lot doing?’ And they said: ‘Well we’re the sand yachts. [unclear] He said: ‘Sand yachts! All day long I’ve seen bloody sails, and I said I knew there was no sea over there.’ And they said: ‘What, what’s all these flares?’ I said: ‘There time expired pyrotechnics, I think we’re just getting rid of them.’ So, anyway he wasn’t very pleased. [chuckle] But then anyway. He said: ‘I and been seeing all these sails and I knew full well there was no sea over there.‘ [chuckle] Oh, well anyway, we had a nice time in Cairo. Quite nice town. Err, what else? [sigh]
AH : What was is like coming back to Britain?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What was it like coming back to Britain?
WB : Coming back home?
AH : Yeah.
WB : Cold. [laugh] Yeah. We came, we came round Durban and Cape Town, and we just came out of Cape Town and we had, there was two, two troop ships and we had a couple of naval battles with us, and a cruiser and a couple of destroyers, and we were coming out somewhere and they said [?] ‘All hands on deck, put your lifebelts. Lifebelts on.’ So we all got on deck, and one of the destroyers it came near, and there must have been a German submarine down below and he threw depths charges up. And [intake of breath] their ship came up out of the water and we thought it’s never going down. 22,000 tonnes of ship, and we thought it was never going to a stop. But anyway, the sub didn’t get us, whether we got him or not; we, we got on home [sigh]. And we came in round the Atlantic, we c. Came into Liverpool. The night we lay there [inaudible] ladies[?], we were up on a transit camp at West Kirby, outside Liverpool and we were there and they came and bombed Liverpool. [chuckle] Oh dear. [sigh] And then when we were down at Kirkby there; a plane it took off and an engine failed, so it decided to come back. So he came back and he turned round and he came back and he, he force landed. He crash landed. And he was sitting there and he was rocking on a 4,000lb bomb. [chuckle] And we took it in turns to go in, they got the crew out, there was one man in the bomb bay. He was still, his head had gone through a partition. And we took it in turns to cut through to get him out. And we were there, and there, there were a couple of WAAFs who worked for me in the plump bay and they were outside, hugging each other. ‘Oh, Mr Bullock’s in there.’ And I said: ‘Well, if the bomb had gone off you wouldn’t have stood much chance would ya?’ [chuckle] Anyway, it didn’t go off. We got them out. [deep sigh]
AH: And what was your job role at Kirk-?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What, what did you do as what [sorry]
PH : What was your job at East Kirkby?
WB : I was, I was what they call the Technical Adjutant. I did all the paperwork and books and things and returns and all sorts of stuff, that kept me busy for a year.
PH : Did you have to clear the beds in the mornings after the raids?
WB : Pardon?
PH: Did you have to clear the personal possessions away?
WB : Oh yeah. Oh well, when the, yeah when the if any got missing on raids, yeah you had to go round and collect the kit, and I, I collected the kits of, I think, of 120 people while I was there. And we just collected it all up, put in a bag and took it to what they called ‘The Committee of Adjustment’ who sorted everything out, and actually down in East Kirkby now there’s a memorial and there’s a very nice poem, very nice poem at East Kirkby to that we lost a thousand men in three years. Yeah, that was pretty good. A thousand men in three years. [sigh]
PH : What about the plane that came in upside down?
WB : Oh yes. We, we heard a terrific roar and when we got out, there was a plane up there and, and it was coming down and one engine was on fire, and it was heading down and eventually crashed and blew up, and there was one man, they got him out, they took him away on a stretcher and he [unclear] [chuckle] And anyway we said: ‘Well what about this engine on fire?’ They said: ‘No, it wasn’t that engine, the other one.’ They said ‘when you saw him it, it was upside down.’ And he went in, oh, dear oh dear, six, six of them killed. [sigh] Yeah. I got a job there, I had to keep, keep a good supply of engines and propellers, and the engines, they had to, Rolls Royce, Glasgow they dealt with them, and, if, you know, I had a lorry load and a rear Corporal in Boston called Tom caught on, and I said: ‘Tommy, I’ve got a load for Glasgow.’ He said: ‘Right, send your lorry.’ And he sent me lorry and trailer to deliver with a load of all these engines. And up and off they went to Glasgow. And came back with another load. But the, the more powerful Rolls Royce engines, the Merlins they went to Derby, Nightingale Road, Derby. So, so we sent them there, and oh – yeah, err. Now what else?
PH : What about the Tirpitz?
WB : The Tirpitz? Oh well, erm. Yes, the erm, this [stutter] the group engineer he came to me at East Kirkby and there were the more powerful Merlins, 34s. He said: ‘I want all your 34s with the broad propellers in sets. He says ; ‘It’s nothing to do with you what I want them for,’ but he said: ‘Get me in sets of four and when you get a set let me know.’ So, so I’m getting them all, got all me, changed all the, the little engines, but took the big ones out. Got them all rolled up and anyway, he came and he took them, and they went to 9 Squadron at Bardney, and it was for bombing the Tirpitz. Yeah, so at least we had a hand in that. [sigh] Oh yes, when this, when this one crashed and landed and a big piece of the airplane, it went through the guardroom, and there was a man, a man in the guardroom locked up on punishment. And this piece of metal, huge leg that went across and through the wall in the Nissan hut, over a bed and out the other side. And the following morning the padre he was around, he saw it, he said: ‘No matter where the evil doeth, the wrath of the Lord shall seek him out.’ [long chuckle] Oh dear, oh well at, yeah, Metheringham, we had what they called FIDO and it was pipes down each side of the runway, all the way down, with little holes in and when it was really foggy, they’d fiddle with the flares all down each side of the runway, and we had it once and it burnt big holes in the fog. And they landed, and an American landed but he had to come for some, he came in, and in a a fighter plane, and he went down and he slewed off the runway, he hit all my FIDO pipes, went back on again, and when he got to Traffic Control, he said: ‘It’s a mighty good thing you got there for keeping people on the runway. [chuckle] Yeah, Gibson, Guy Gibson, he was, when he’d done his job he came to us at East Kirkby for a rest. And he wasn’t a nice man. Very unpopular man. ‘Don’t call me Guy. Call me Dam Buster.’ But his dam, his bomb didn’t hit the dam, it missed it. Oh, he wasn’t a very nice man at all. And in the end, he accidently got shot down by one of our own bombers. Yeah, they mistook him for a German and they shot him down.
PH : Didn’t, didn’t some Canadian guy clock him one?
WB : Yeah, yeah he was getting a bit too familiar with, when they went to Canada, he was getting a bit too familiar with some blokes wife. A great big Dutch man, so he just went up and he dropped him. ‘THUNK!’ He said: ‘Leave my wife alone.’ [chuckle] He wasn’t a popular man at all. [long sup of tea.]
AH : And how did you feel about where -? How was morale?
WB : [still supping on tea] About what?
AH : How was morale when you were at East Kirkby?
WB : Oh all right. Yeah I did, I did me year on paperwork [laugh].
PH : Did, didn’t you, get to advise somebody at the Battle of Britain Flight about how to get a propeller prop off?
WB : You what?
PH : You advised somebody at the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight how to get the propeller off because they were struggling to get the nuts off.
WB – Don’t get that –
PH : You got two awards for doing inventions, didn’t you?
WB : Oh, oh the thing the thing for taking propellers apart. Yeah [sniff sigh] Yes, when, yes that’s when I was at Waddington, and the big four bladed propellers on the, now then, they were Lincolns, not Lanc- Lincolns. You get the pulling them apart, and you shovel a big ring in and you had a big lever and pulled it, pulled it, pulled it. And, oh, it took men all day trying to get these damn things out and I said: ‘No.’ So I invented the little, a little gadget, a little tube about that long with a big nut and bolt in it and I put it in between the two blades and tightened it up, pushed them out two at a time. No bother. And I got a £15 reward from Bomber Command for inventing it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and I did something else, I did somewhere else. Yeah, at, you took the cylinders off jet engines and you put them in some horrible acid stuff and soaked them to get the carbon off, and you had to heat it with big immersion heaters, and it was in this wooden box, and it took all day to heat it, and it didn’t get anywhere, so I thought, no. So, when, when new batteries came for the aeroplanes, they were in big polystyrene packs, and I collected all these sheets of polystyrene about a foot wide and about three feet long and glued them all around this container, and it heated it up quickly, and kept it warm. No both rugger, and the Air Ministry gave me £5 for thinking of it, for saving electricity. [chuckle] Yeah. - Oh, a thousand bomber raid, well I didn’t get mixed up with any of them. The first one, we were at Wigsley, we sent our planes to Swinderby, we operated there, a thousand bombers –
PH : How did it actually work?
WB : Eh?
PH : How did it actually work? How did you get a thousand bombers up at the same time?
WB : Well, eh, I they were all over the place, weren’t on they? Just came up. [deep sniff and sigh]
PH : When you were at school you used a tray, sand tray.
WB : Yeah, yeah when we were in the infants school. We had a little tray with sand, you wrote in it with our fingers and they did the same in Mereman [?] Fen. I was talking to a man once said: ‘We had these little trays with sand now, you do it with your fingers.’ And then eventually you got slate and you had a piece of rag pinned to your jersey to rub the slate out [laughter and sigh]. The things we did.
AH : Can you tell me more about Coningsby?
WB : Pardon?
AH : When you were at Coningsby.
WB : Well, that was in ’45. Yeah, I had 40 Lancasters to look after. Make sure they were there at the right time, otherwise if you didn’t, you’re chucked you out. Anyway, I always got them there right. No bother.
PH : You were part of Pathfinders, weren’t they?
WB : Eh?
PH : Were they Pathfinder Squadrons?
WB : Pathfinder, yeah. The ones who went in early and dropped flares for the others to bomb. They had them at Coningsby, yeah. And I had to keep 40 of them ready, all the time. No bother.
PH : How did you manage to do it in the winter?
WB : Well, you just did. Mostly they didn’t give you a lot of trouble. You didn’t get a lot of trouble. But in the winter, it if it, if it was bad out, you sprayed the wings with the de-icing stuff, to get [unclear], to get the ice off, and the propellers. You had to get the ice off before they could go or otherwise it was they were, you know, heavy and all the rest of it. Had to get this ice going. [sigh] Yeah. [long pause]
AH : What was it like being in Germany?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What was it like being in Germany after they’ve been bombed? And then you...
WB : It was all right in Germany, they, they weren’t hostile at all. They were just mixed up, ordinary people. It wasn’t their fault we bombed them and they bombed us. But Hamburg, was a bit of a mess. Nice town Hamburg. Yeah. Yeah, we had a nice holiday in Hamburg. We went down to, oh, Ruhpolding, had a nice holiday there. And then we went down, we went down as far as Venice once on holiday. It was very good. We went down on, went down in the bus to, right in the corner of Germany and then we got a bus down to Venice. Four, four, five days in Venice. And we were way up in the mountains, and over, about a mile away there were two or three big American lorries. They were letting big black balloons up, and they were going up and over. And the bus driver stopped and everybody was looking, and I said: ‘I know [emphasis], I know what they are.’ I used to take The Reader’s Digest and there’d been an article in there about this lot, and when the wind blew in a certain direction over from Germany to Czechoslovakia, they used to let these big black balloons up full of leaflets and they would drift over to Czechoslovakia and drop all the leaflets down. So I told, there’s a man there who spoke English and I said: ‘I know what they are.’ And I told him. ‘Oh’ And they said: ‘Oh, the Englishman, he knows.’ [chuckle] They was alright. We had a nice holiday in Venice. You did, didn’t you?
PH: Yes. What was your nickname in the RAF? Was it Abdul?
WB : Abdul. Yeah, they called me Abdul. ‘Cos when we, I was always out in the sun. I was the colour of that table. And, when we got to, we went from Egypt, they moved us to Iraq, and got there, and of course, they all called me Abdul. And we had a, one of the locals, he looked after the bungalow, kept things clean, made the bed and all the rest of it. He said to me one day, I wonder. He says: ‘Why you in Royal Egypt? You Egyptian?’ I said: ‘I’m not a bloody Egyptian. I’m an Englishman.’ He said: ‘You black, why they call you Abdul!’ [loud cough]. And I never convinced him I was Englishman. Never. Oh dear, dear, dear. Oh, we had fun. Better out now [unclear].
PH : Did you have much entertainment off the base, at the village halls?
WB : No. [door bell and distant voices.] Father he joined the army as a bugler boy, and in the war he was called up to Air Ministry, and they said: ‘We want to put you in charge of, of a training squadron, you know a transport, a training squadron, and we’ll up you to squadron leader.’ And the man who was dealing with, he said: ‘You were my bugler boy when you joined the Army, weren’t ya?’ [laughter] Anyway, dad, he did very well as squadron leader. Yeah, he worked hard. [sigh] Did 41 years all together in the army, RFC and Army and Air Force. He was number 150 in the RFC. Very senior. Still not the first day and his brother was number 700, he joined up the next day. [chuckle] My brother did 22 years, my sister did four and a half in the Army and then she, she was civil servant with the, with the Navy in the Admiralty. And she, she was the personal private secretary to the Director Technical Polaris. Very, very important job and but if any of her admirals where going anywhere, she had to arrange all the transport, the right flags and, this, that and the other. And, and one of them one day said: ‘We’ve never seen you at one of our launches. You know when they launch one of the Polaris.’ She said: ‘I’ve never been invited.’ He said: ‘You will come to the next one.’ So the next launching, they laid a staff car on for Betty, picked her up, took her to the station, first class travel up to Barrow, entertained her, put her in a hotel, staff car took her out to the launching, came back, and when, when she left they, they gave her a carriage clock, and on the side of it was something-or-other : To Miss Betty Bullock [coughing] Aminu Ensis[?] to make the war work to seven admirals, and there were all these admirals names, and that was, that was good. She did a very good job with these admirals. Seven. Twenty-one years she was an admiral’s secretary. They took her out to a nice posh dinner and saw her off well. So we did our share. I did 34 years. My brother did 22 years. My dad did 41. And my sister did, oh heavens only knows how many. [sigh] Yeah.
AH : What did your dad do in the First World War?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What did your dad do in the First World War?
WB :` Oh, he was in the Flying Corps. Yeah, he was an Engineer Officer with the Flying Corps – Number 1 5 0. They did all sorts of things.
PH : What sort of planes would he be working on?
WB : [growls] Well, I know De Havilland something or other. Bristol fighters, Sopwith Camels and all sorts of thing. There was one there that had a rotary engine and instead of the engine being still and everything going round, the crankshaft was bolted and the engine went round it. No, no rotary. The engine went round [stutters]. You wouldn’t imagine it, would you? Anyway it did.
PH : What year did you join the RAF?
WB : I joined up in ’32 and I came out in ’66. Yeah. I went everywhere from AC1 to flight lieutenant and back again. [Long sniff] Oh, I wasn’t all that happy with being a flight lieutenant, I don’t know, I, anyway I ditched my commission and I went back and I was a warrant officer for about 13 years, and I was much happier as a warrant officer. You didn’t have big mess bills and expenses at all. You, you were well off. [coughing] No, I usually had jobs in charge of workshops and it was a real, you know, nice job. Workshop jobs. Where the work was. [coughing and long pause].
AH : What did you do after the war? After you left the RAF, sorry?
WB : I came out the year I went down to Horncastle Rural District Council and the rating department, collected money and all this that and other. And then did that for about eight years. And then when this reorganising took place, I got moved to East Lindsey District Council, and oh, oh I don’t know I did paperwork all the time. Yeah.
PH : It wasn’t particularly a cosy job at times though. You got followed, didn’t you, one time –
WB : Eh?
PH : You got followed because you got money in the car. Didn’t –
WB : Oh. no, I didn’t get stopped.
PH : No, but didn’t somebody follow you all day.
WB : Well, that were coming back from Wragby. Somebody once said to me: ‘I used to collect rent at Wragby and you got several hundred pound in your bag.’ And somebody once said to me. No, no it was me wife, she was in the dentist was down the dentist in the town there, and they were talking this and said: ‘You know when that rent collector goes over the level crossing at 4 o’clock’, they said, ‘He’s got an awful lot of money in that bag.’ And Mary told me, she said: ‘Oh.’ Anyway, the next time I came out when I went over the level crossing, and there was a car, there was a van there. I thought: Oh. So I put my foot down and came back about 70 mile per hour and I told the boss and he said: ‘Right, so from then on, someone was seen to see me in the afternoon and take a big bag off me with most of the money. So they didn’t, I didn’t have all that money to people to pinch off me, but I wasn’t very happy with people following me. ‘Cos they said: ‘If every you’re attacked, just let the money go, don’t argue.’ I said: ‘No, not if I been collecting it, bugger it. I’m not let them have it.’ [chuckles] So, anyway, we didn’t have any more bother. But it makes you wonder, don’t it?
[long pause]
PH : You seen a lot of changes in aircraft design, haven’t you?
WB: Yeah [sniff] yeah. The one, the one before the Lancaster was a Manchester. It had two, two big engines, 3,000 horsepower engines. Two. There were, the, the Merlins two like that and the [unclear] Vulcan and it had [stuttering] X’s. Vulture, anyway they were the two big cross engines and it only had a single tail rudder. The old Manchester it was useless as an aeroplane. It was slow and it was cumbersome. It didn’t carry much big load. Anyway, they soon turned it into a Lancaster, and it was a marvellous aeroplane. Marvellous aeroplane. They made 700, 7,000 odd in the war. Yeah, it was the best plane that came out of the war. [inaudible]
PH : What’s the one after the Lancaster?
WB : Lincoln. A bit, bit, bit bigger. Four bladed props against the Lancasters three. Yeah, I think it had bigger, didn’t have a Griffin engine, I think the Lincoln. A bigger engine. And it was a big aeroplane. It was East, erh, Waddington. [pause] Yes [long pause]
AH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Pardon?
AH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Do what?
PH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Well I don’t think so, I can’t think of much. No, no not much to do with the RAF. There are things not to do.
AH : How do you feel about the way Bomber Command was treated after the war?
WB : Does she what?
PH : How do you feel that Bomber Command was treated after the war?
WB : Well...
PH : ... with Bomber Harris.
WB : Bomber Harris, they didn’t treat him well. They - everybody got a knighthood, but not, not Bomber. They, they, they ignored him. They didn’t treat him right. He did a good job, Bomber Harris. They said he was brutal, but he only did his job. He just said: ‘If you can’t get the factories, get the people that who work in them.’ Well, fair enough, but you can’t blame him for that. He got these bombers going. No, he wasn’t treated well, Bomber Harris – ha [long sigh] There’s a man just died, Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham. And he was down at East Kirkby, and John Chatterton, he had to test pilots, and he said: ‘I remember this bloke Michael Beetham coming through, and he was too good, he said he had, had to rate him above average, cos he’s way above average.’ And he finished up Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham. And I met him, nice man, met him down at East Kirkby. Yeah. And there were two ex-apprentices, got cadetship and went to Cranwell. They both finished up as Air Marshalls. Yeah. Some did well, very well.
PH : What, what were you days at Houlton like?
WB : Eh?
PH : What were your days at Houlton like?
WB : All right.
PH : What were you know as?
WB : Oh, Trenchard Sprouts [chuckle] Yeah. Oh, it was a good life, yeah, yeah it was a good life. You worked hard, but they trained you well. But they always said: ‘If a bloke was ever trained at Houlton, he could walk straight into a job at Rolls Royce. That was that Houlton training, you can go straight to Rolls Royce as a workman. [sniff and sigh] Yeah. Three years. Jolly good.
PH : Who was Trenchard?
WB : Eh?
PH : Who was Trenchard?
WB : Well, he was a General in the First War and then he, he started the, more-or-less, started the Air Force, as such, Flying Corps. General Lieutenant, General Sir whatever his name Trenchard, and he started the apprentice scheme, the apprentice’s scheme; hence the name Trenchard Sprouts. He was a good man, Trenchard. Not a big man. Yes he started the RAF. [loud crash and bang] Ohi.
AH : Well, thank you very much.
WB : Pardon?
AH : Thank you.
PH : Yeah, well call that -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with William Bullock
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anna Hoyles
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-30
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:57:49 audio recording
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABullockWEJ151030, PBullockWEJ1601
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Description
An account of the resource
William Bullock was born in Marshfield in Gloucestershire in September 1916 and joined the Royal Air Force as an apprentice in 1932. He was posted to Egypt for training - after serving in the Middle East he joined Bomber Command as an engineer. After serving at RAF East Kirkby, William moved to 106 Squadron at RAF Metheringham before joining Pathfinders at RAF Conningsby, looking after and maintaining 40 Lancasters. William was in charge of moving aircraft around from location to location and tells about his role as a technical adjutant and supplying Merlin engines for the attack on the Tirpitz. He also describes his technical innovations and of his meeting with Guy Gibson. William tells about his post war family and service life, with details on his posting in Sylt, Germany where he saw the extent of bombing damage. He also elaborates on Hugh Trenchard, Michael Beetham, and Arthur Harris.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Germany--Sylt
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
North Africa
Iraq
Iraq--Mosul
106 Squadron
bombing
FIDO
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
Pathfinders
RAF Coningsby
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Metheringham
Tirpitz
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/559/8826/PStephensonS1608.1.jpg
52f47ebba3be09356c1defc18313a953
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/559/8826/AStephensonS160315.2.mp3
0b67961bc8438304de61a0d561cc6db6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stephenson, Stuart
Stuart Stephenson MBE
S Stephenson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stephenson, S
Description
An account of the resource
20 items. An oral history interview with Stuart Stephenson MBE, Chairman of the Lincs-Lancaster Association, and issues of 5 Group News.
The collection was catalogued by Barry Hunter.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, some items are available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: So, this is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. My name is Dan Ellin, I am interviewing Stuart Stephenson MBE, it is the 15th of the third 2016, we’re in Lincoln at his home address and it is twenty past one. So Stuart, can you tell me some of your earliest memories to do with —
SS: I was obviously born in 1935, which meant that when war broke out I was five-ish. When I was six-ish, I think it would be — in 1941 I think — my father had gone in the Army, I was at home with my mother and sister. We lived in Boston, it was the middle of the year so it was very light early in the morning and we heard a low-flying aircraft of some sort. We slept downstairs because of the bombing, had black-out curtains, I leapt out of bed, I went to the front window, whipped the blackout curtains. To my amazement, in front of me crossing the road from behind to in front, was a very low flying German twin-engined aircraft with a, with a gun turret that pointed its guns down the road, and they fired down the road across as, as we were coming, as they went over. I later discovered that they was actually shooting at a lorry that was parked up the side of the road, and I seem to remember it belonged to a gentleman called Mr Ingoldmells, who was one of the very few haulage drivers in the area at that time. A month or two later, when there was heavy rain, next door but one — a Mr Parker — he said his spouts were overflowing with water, so he got a ladder and he climbed up, and I was lucky enough to be presented with a whole handful of spent German cannon, ammunition shells, cartridge shells that he’d rescued from his gutters. I don’t know what happened to those but this was at Boston. As the, within a couple, maybe a few months — it was a Saturday morning and there was my mum was talking to the lady next door across the fence, and there was an aircraft up there droning away, and I came out and I was looking up in the sky, and I could just see this dot. Little dot of an aircraft. And I watched it and the women talked on, and suddenly, something fell off it, and I said to the women, I said, ‘Look mum. There’s something fallen off that plane’. ‘Stuart, don’t interrupt, we’re talking. It’s rude to interrupt’. And I’m watching this coming down, and I’m saying, ‘No. Look, it’s coming down. Look’, and I finally got them to stop talking, and I looked and I saw this thing coming down and it was getting closer and closer and closer, and I wonder what’s happened. And it fell behind the house, maybe a quarter of a mile away, near a place, a tower, Rochford Tower Hall it was called. Rochford Tower. There was an enormous explosion, at which point we decided it was a bomb, but to our, to my amazement, as a child I saw a row of very large trees. I saw some of these trees flung up in the air with a massive bang and bits coming down all over the place. The two women — ‘Stuart, get in the house’, and we immediately, I immediately, ‘I don’t want to go in the house. The plane’. ‘No, you’ve got to go in the house. We have to get under the table in the kitchen’. Having been under the table for five minutes and I wanted to go outside again to see what was going on, but the plane had droned away to the east and lo and behold, the air raid warning went, which, which encouraged my interest in aviation. Later we moved away from Boston. My father was in the Army and he was stationed near Bakewell in Derbyshire, so we moved to Bakewell and I went to school at Bakewell for a time, and I well remember, and people that have been to Bakewell who will remember the street. The street sort of divides, the main street divides two as you go towards the bridge over the river, it divides into two, with a sort of building in the middle, which was the main one in front of you was the Post Office. And we were waiting to cross the road, there was little traffic, but there was a lot of women and a lot of kids, and they were all talking and I was that bit older then, and suddenly, there’s a strange whistling noise, and there’s women looking up and I’m looking up, because I’m thinking, ‘Oh this is another aeroplane’, and to everybody’s amazement this plane flew over. Well, they all thought it was going to crash because it’s got no propellers on it and it’s, it’s going to crash. And it didn’t crash, but it flew straight over and the panic was gone, and they was all saying, ‘Shhhh. You’ll hear a bang in a minute when it hits the ground’, or something, but it didn’t and it went away. And again, I’m not sure what year, I have a feeling this would be maybe 1944, but by what I recall, there was only the meteor that was flying at that time, and that was my first introduction to a jet. I went to school of course in Boston, I went to school elsewhere. Eventually, having sort of grown up into my twenties, I was still interested in aircraft and the time came in the 1970s when a Lancaster came back to Waddington, and this was PA474 which is currently with the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. This aircraft had been recovered from Henlow by 44 Squadron, who had been given the task to, by their CO to locate a Lancaster to bring to Waddington as a gate guardian. They, they had struggled to find a Lancaster and by chance, one of the officers, who I won’t mention but I know him very well, he spotted this Lancaster through a hole in the hedge at Henlow, and it was sitting in a grass field with a Lincoln standing beside it, which the Lincoln was the later development of the Lancaster. 44 Squadron then having made some enquiries, it was discovered that it belonged to the Air Historical Branch of PA4. Well both aircraft did. They, they sent a working party to go out to have a look at it, to ascertain whether it was — how much it would take to dismantle it to bring it, to road it back to Waddington basically, in bits. The ground crew that went to look at it — they’d all been ex-Lancaster ground crew types during the war, because the gap was comparatively short between the two and they were coming up to retirement age. Anyway, they spent several weekends down there and they would go on a Saturday morning or a Friday night with a tent, sleep in a tent under the aircraft, and work on it on the Sunday, doing whatever checks they had to do. After a time, it was decided that it was better than they thought, it might be. So they, they decided that they would take a bowser and put some petrol in it or fuel in it, and see if they could get it to run. Bearing in mind the engines hadn’t been inhibited or anything, it was just standing there. So anyway, they went and then they got this fuel and put in to it, and within another week or two, they suddenly got four engines running. So at this stage, the commandant of Henlow — a college I believe it was, or air, air base — he came along and he said, ‘What are you doing?’ and they said that there was, they’d got permission to move this back to Waddington. So he said, ‘Well we thought — we had this message but we understood you were going to dismantle it and take it by road’, and they said, ‘Well we’ve checked it over, and we decided that it, it is a runner. So it is going to take an awful long time to dismantle it and we’ve got to bring cranes and fittings up here to do it, so we will come and we will hopefully fly it back’. So he was somewhat upset by this, because he wasn’t expecting them to say this and this meant he’d got to make a decision I suppose, but anyway the decision was made that yes, they could fly it back but on one must-not-do. ‘When you take off, you must not fly over the college buildings. The airfield buildings. You must go away from the airfield and the base, so if the wings fall off it, you’ll not fall on to the —’ So anyway, they duly reached that stage. They found a pilot who I believe was a Polish gentleman, they then began to look at the field itself. Working parties were brought to walk the field to fill in holes and generally check it over. They spent several weekends doing this, and the day came when it was to go, so they — it was crewed up and they did all the engine run ups and all the usual pre-flight checks, and off they went across the grass, gathering speed. Reached the point of tail up, and lo and behold, there was a hole in the ground, which they think it was maybe a fox had dug. But our Lancaster hit this and it, with one jerk, it was airborne. The pilot gathered it and kept it flying and it duly flew back to Waddington. I believe the navigator, it was claimed the navigator made a slight error, because the press were waiting at Waddington, and it didn’t initially go back to Waddington. It made a circle around and flew over Scampton, who’d got R5868, which is now in the RAF museum as their gate guardian, with a sort of two fingers up sign, ‘We’ve got one that flies at Waddington’. Anyway, that was done and he duly came in to land at Waddington. So I was told that the press were there in great numbers, and it was all very exciting. He came in to land, and it was one of those landings where he touched down and then took off again, and he touched down and then he took off again. The camera lenses were seen to be going up and down with the long lenses on the cameras, and it duly came to a standstill. Taxied around and was, the engines were switched off and it was back at Waddington. It was only then that they learned that the pilot, who was Polish, he was a test pilot for, I believe it was English Electric in those days, and he was a test pilot flying Canberras, and he’d basically landed it — done a Canberra landing in a Lancaster, which a Canberra has a nose wheel and it lands on a nose wheel configuration that, it doesn’t sit with its tail up or anything. It goes down, whereas the attitude of a Lanc is completely different. Had they known they wouldn’t have let him fly it but — because there were other pilots who were qualified to fly in that, that format of a tail wheel aircraft. We, we were living at Bracebridge Heath and for a year nothing happened. The Lancaster went in the hangar and it was thought that it was being prepared as the gate guardian, however, it then appeared on the airfield from time to time and were doing engine runs and then it, it occasionally took to the air, and it was very pleasant to sit in one’s front garden and see a Lancaster, or have it fly over, virtually over your head, fairly low. At a time when there wasn’t another one in the world flying, the Canadian one was not flying at that stage, and gradually the flying time that it was putting in was increased, and then it sort of appeared at Biggin Hill or Farnborough, and this was really building into something. The officer commanding RAF Waddington, the group captain, he tended to fly it, I think his name was Stanley, along with several others who were qualified to fly that aircraft type. The time went on, and having extended it then the — it was taken for granted by the population that it would stay at Waddington, and that was it, and we were all quite happy. And then suddenly, it was in the Lincolnshire Echo in 1973 that Waddington’s Lancaster was to be moved to RAF Coltishall in Norfolk. Obviously, there was a great deal of muttering and everything, because the thought was, why take the bomber away from where it was, came into service, because Waddington was the very first Lancaster station where it was introduced in ‘41. Anyway, it was duly — something had to be done. A letter appeared, or a piece appeared, in the Lincolnshire Echo, and it said that there’s a Mrs Buttery who had written a piece and made a statement to the Echo, to say that there should be some effort made to retain this Lancaster in the county. It belonged to the county, it didn’t belong on a fighter station. Anybody interested, would they please contact her. I went and contacted her on the, this was on a Friday, I contacted her on the Monday morning at work, which was the only address she gave which was in Guildhall Street opposite the old Post Office in those days. I was the first one there and I introduced myself, and her name was Hilda and we got on very well. There was various other people turned up as the next week or two went on, and we gradually sort of came together. Alderman and Frank Eccleshare decided that there was public interest in this and he would form a — there would be a meeting held in Lincoln for everybody that was interested to come and have their say. So, needless to say, our little group had got together. We called ourselves the Lincolnshire Lancaster Committee, because we was just a committee, we weren’t thinking of anything else. We, we went to the meeting which was well attended. There was a thing in those days on the radio at lunchtime that — Jimmy Young who was a broadcaster, broadcast every day, and if you’d got a problem, he would, I’ll say fix it, but nothing to do with the fix it that we all hate today. However, I wrote to Jimmy Young, and this was before the meeting, and I said this is a problem, and to explain that the local population didn’t want this aircraft moving and, ‘Go on Jimmy. Fix it’. I received a nice buff pre-printed card from the BBC to say Mr Young will — is looking in to this and he’ll be in touch. It’s now forty-three, forty-four years since I got that card and I’m still waiting for his reply. He didn’t come back to us. However, the meeting was held and various — we stood up and made our piece, and amongst the people in the audience, a gentleman stood up who I, we got to know quite well, his name was Eric, Eric Gledhill. I’m sure anybody that knew Eric will not be upset when I say that Eric, he was a crew chief, he was obviously, I don’t know, flight sergeant I guess in those days, but he had what we called a lavatory brush hairstyle. His hair was spiky and it looked very much like a lavatory brush. Eric stood up. ‘I’m the crew chief that looks after this Lancaster, and I can assure you, it will not fly for another couple of years, then it’s going to be on the ground. It can’t go on, it’s on its last legs and this would be the end. So we’ve got two years to try to do something’. Anyway, the, the meeting ended, and we decided that we’d got to sort of try to put a mark on this aircraft, to try to get it kept in to Lincolnshire. So again. I’d had the idea that the Lincoln City, the mayor and his, his attendants were very often seen in the local newspaper in the, in the ward room of the then HMS Lincoln and having the odd drinkies, and so I thought, well if they, this was Lincoln’s adopted warship and I thought, ‘Well come on, Lincoln shouldn’t be adopting a warship, they should be adopting a bomber’. So, I brought this up at the committee meeting and said, ‘Look, we should be making advances to the council to get the bomber adopted’. Our chair lady, she knew the mayor and the message was passed to the mayor, and the council looked at it and the question, I believe, was asked, ‘What’s it going to cost to do this?’ And the answer came back, ‘Very little’., and they seemed to like that idea, and so it was arranged that the, the aircraft would be adopted. It was duly adopted. I’m sorry, I can’t remember the date exactly but it coincided with a visit from 463, 467 Squadron, Royal Australian Air Force, their big reunion. They were coming over to, to Waddington for this event and they were duly to be treated with full ceremony, and the adoption would be on the same day as they came to see the Lancaster. I said, again I raised at the committee that if, if we’re going to have it adopted, we should ask that they put the Lincoln City badge on to the nose of the aircraft to illustrate to all and sundry that it was Lincoln City, Lincoln City’s aircraft. This was agreed, that would be done, and the RAF were contacted and they were warm to the idea. I learned later that we’d actually asked just for the badge, but I learned, I learned later that the, this was came in after it’s been moved to Coltishall. But they, they sent somebody from Coltishall, an officer came from Coltishall to Lincoln with a camera, to get a photograph of the Lincoln City badge. Of course, today it would be done by email and it would be in a flash, but he came to Lincoln and he wandered about the city, I’m told, looking for the badge. And in the end, he saw the badge on the side of a Lincoln City Corporation bus, and it had the Fleur de Lys coat of arms. Below it was, in gothic script, “City of Lincoln”, so he took a photograph of this, took it back to Coltishall. It was duly, it was hand painted on to the aircraft by a gentleman who was an expert in this type of work. He had not understood what was asked of him, so he painted the badge very nicely and he’d put City of Lincoln underneath it, which was an idea that we hadn’t have thought of but it was better than we’d thought of, so we got this thrown in as a bonus. So she had a very large badge on her nose in those days, with City of Lincoln in gothic script, and that was put on the nose then. She’s been repainted several times, but it was made, it was officially pronounced that this aircraft was named City of Lincoln, and it would remain that. Whatever paint job they put on it, that would remain on it, and it’s still on it today, although in reduced size on the opposite side to where it was first put on. Coming back to the, the Australian visit, this was a remarkable event, because they, they came to us and they said that — I live in Waddington village — these Australians were coming over and would — when they came to Waddington during the war, there was not enough space for them to live on the camp, so they were billeted out throughout the village. People took them into their homes, the aircrew, which was very traumatic for some because obviously, they didn’t all come back. However, all these years later they’re coming again. ‘Would you like to take a chap and his wife for a week while they’re over here?’ So we said, ‘Yes, we would’, and we were duly allocated, if that’s the right word, the gentleman. Buchan comes to mind. He was the gentleman that flew the Lanc that flew the longest mission ever, when he flew back and he, the BB for the royal aircraft or the Crown Film Unit, to film the Tallboys going down on the Tirpitz, that finally sank the Tirpitz — that’s a famous bit of footage. He was told - they were told they were flying back to Lossiemouth. He said — stuff Lossiemouth or words to that thing, and he would fly back. ‘I didn’t want to go there, I want to come back to Waddington’, so he flew back to Waddington, landed and I don’t — he hardly had enough fuel to get back to his dispersal, it was sucking air. So I was looking forward to, to this visit, because it was obviously somebody that was very interesting to me and I was liking to talk to him, however, at the last minute, unfortunately his lady wife got ill and he couldn’t come, so we had it changed around and lo and behold, I got a fella and his wife called Bill Berry. Bill was a — not a tall man, shall we put it like that, and he was very nice and he talked in a real dinkum Australian accent. That was very good, fitted the Bill Hancock’s Half Hour voice very nicely. They came to stay with us, and of course, we talked. Now, he said to me, he said, ‘Do you know, Stuart’, he said, ‘My best mate ever’, he said, ‘He lived here, he lived in Lincolnshire. He was a farmer’, he said, ‘And we used to go shooting with an old car with the headlights and’, he said, ‘It was a marvellous time between flying’. And he said, ‘I’ve lost touch with him’, and he said, ‘I’ve no idea. I can’t remember where he lived now’. So I said, ‘What was his name then?’ So he said, ‘His name was John Chatterton’. I said, ‘I know John Chatterton’. ‘You don’t’. I said, ‘I do’. So he said, ‘Well blow me down’, or words to that effect, so he said, ‘Can we make contact?’ I said, ‘Well hang on a minute’, so I got up and I dial the number, and he answered, and I said, ‘Hello John. Is that you?’ So he said, ‘Yeah, it is. What do you want Stu?’ I said, ‘Well I’ve got an old mate of yours here’, I said, ‘Who wants to talk to you’, so he said, ‘Have you? Who’s that?’ I said, ‘Does the word Bill Berry mean anything to you?’ ‘Bugger me’, he says, ‘I can’t believe it, put him on’. So they talked, and it was agreed that within the next night or two, they’d, they’d come together in our lounge at Waddington, to meet after all these years, and it was a suitably emotional evening and they brought their logbooks with them. And of course, I’d known John Chatterton for quite a while, his son, Mike Chatterton, was, I believe, at that time currently the Lancaster pilot with the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. So, Bill, he said this was fantastic and they compared log books, and I wish I’d had Dan’s recording machine with me because they were going through all these anecdotes and comparing one night. Where did you go on so and so, and so and so? ‘I went to Dusseldorf that night’. ‘How long was you there? How long was you airborne for?’ ‘I was airborne for three hours twenty minutes’. If you like. ‘No, no. What was you messing about at? We did it in three hours and ten minutes’, and there was a lot of verbal going on like that. So they came, after they’d ceased, they’d done their ops and they went to Syerston together as instructors, and they told me a little story. He said they were in the crew room at Syerston, and he said it was, had been a horrible few days and there had been no flying, and there was a lot of blokes hanging about and we were waiting for the weather to lift. The cloud base was still fairly low but it was going up slowly, and he said, ‘We were there’, he said, ‘And we were bored and’, he said, ‘Suddenly, John Chatterton stood up and he said, ‘Right, my lot, we’re going flying’. ‘Are you’re going flying?’ ‘Yes, I’m going flying. I can’t stand this any longer’. So they got up, and they went charging off to their aircraft, and fifteen, twenty minutes later it taxies out on to the runway, comes trundling down the runway, and they all go outside to watch it go past, and it goes past, and it’s — if you look at a map of Syerston, you will see that the River Trent is at the far end of the runway. So he goes, this is Bill telling this story, and he said, ‘He goes down the runway and his tail wheel’s up, but he’s not, his main wheels are still on the ground, and he gets to the end of the runway and he disappears in to the Trent, and we thought, ‘Oh my God, he’s crashed’. So there was bicycles, there was people running, there was vehicles, there was fire engines, they were all, they were all charging down to the end of the runway to see the wreckage in the Trent and hope these fellas are still alive, and he said, ‘We got there expecting to see oil on the water and all sorts of wreckage. Nothing. There’s no marks on anywhere. We can’t — we’re looking around. We can’t believe. Where is he? He’s vanished. It’s magic’. And he said, ‘We just stood there and then we heard a sound, and it was Merlin engines and’, he said, ‘They were, they were behind us and he turned around, and here’s this Lanc coming at ground level and its straight for us, and we all threw ourselves flat, and he comes almost through the middle of us and then climbed up and went away’. And he said, ‘that was John Chatterton, and somehow he’d managed to turn to starboard or port, whichever one it was, and he’d managed to get away without us realising where he’d gone and he’d gone around the back of us, and we was all, we’d all been covered in mud. We’d all thrown ourselves flat on the ground and, and,’ he said, ‘That was a moment I remember’ And I looked at John Chatterton, who’d got, I’m sure if he was here, he would agree with him, Mike would agree with him, that he had a baby face. He looked a rounded baby-faced chap, and I said to John, I said, ‘John, would you do a thing like that?’ And he said, ‘Stu, could you imagine me doing anything like that?’ I said, ‘Yes’. So there was laughter and that was a moment to remember, but I put that, I was lucky to be there with these two guys to hear all these stories, and what a pity. There was a lot more I can’t remember, but there was a lot was forgotten forever I’m afraid because I couldn’t record it.
DE: Sure.
SS: The, the story. I think I’ll have to pause now a minute if you don’t mind.
DE: Ok.
[Recording paused]
DE: Right, so we’re recording again. There we go.
SS: The Lancaster moved to Coltishall but she’s crewed by aircrew from Waddington and Scampton. Jacko Jackson had been allegated to, allegated, is that the right word? Allocated as officer commanding the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight in 1972. I believe that’s correct although the thing at the Battle of Britain Flight might tell you wrong. But —
DE: People can find that out. Yeah.
SS: I’ve got it on. They don’t know at Coningsby yet, I’ve not been over since I found out. I’ve a letter from, inviting me to Jacko’s leaving party, and Jacko was, it says in there when he was made officer commanding. I’ve got it in the other room but we can find that out in a minute. Anyway, this was causing them a lot of problems, because they were having to travel by coach to Coltishall and back again at weekends, in all the seaside traffic because it’s a very busy road. This was wrong. We’d been petitioning to the, well the Lancaster Committee we’d, we’d had fun and games. We didn’t realise it but when the Lanc was about to leave Waddington for the very last time, one of our members, who wouldn’t admit doing it but we know he did, he went around all the local pubs where the airmen gather, and he put around these stories that these freaks at Lincoln were going to go to Waddington and they were going to sit on the runway to stop them flying the Lanc out. Well, bearing in mind, Lincoln was, Waddington was a Vulcan base much connected with the Cold War, and the nuclear weapons that were stored thereabouts so the RAF didn’t want a lot of people on the airfield, and the Echo put out statements from the RAF that no public person would be allowed on the, on to the camp while this was taking place. And this was all to be sorted. Come the day, there was police galore in land rovers, patrolling the Sleaford Road. There was more dogs than, than you’ve ever seen. I think they’d brought extra people in from other bases. There was a lot of people on the roadside along there, but there was no trouble and it flew out, and that was the end of the story, but there was a little, little bit of a kink in the tale of it all, that before it went, they’d had a press thing to let the press come on the airfield through the guardroom to take photos and interview the captain and whatever. One of our committee members — he’d got, he’d been driving around the camp, he usually carried about six cameras around his neck, he, he noticed that there was a group of press people gathered in a little group near the guardroom, so he left his car quickly in the officer’s mess car park, walked across to the guardroom and just joined up with these newspapermen. Within minutes a coach appeared, they all gathered on the coach. Nobody checked who they were. They all got on the coach, they were all taken onto the airfield, to the aircraft, and they all took it in turns to get in the aircraft. Well the captain on that day was, we called him Uncle Ken but his name was Squadron Leader Ken Sneller, who was the nicest man you could ever wish to meet, and of course, he knew Trevor, who was the guy that had smuggled himself in, and it came to Trevor’s turn to get in the aircraft to take pictures. And he duly clambered in and came up to the front end, clambered over the main spar to, to see Uncle Ken there. Uncle Ken said, ‘What are you doing here?’ And he said, ‘Don’t tell anybody. I’m a, I’m a spy got on the airfield where nobody’s supposed to be getting’, so he duly took photographs in the cockpit and that was, that was that little moment of when we had the last laugh, but nobody in the RAF knew it had happened. The, the story about the Australians that I repeated a little earlier, that happened a few years later, after the aircraft had been at Coltishall for a time.
DE: Yeah.
SS: So, so it’s not out of context.
DE: That’s fine. Thank you.
SS: The, the time went by and we started collecting signatures to get the aircraft brought back to Waddington, or to Lincolnshire. I think we — but we thought it would be Waddington. We gathered signatures, within a matter of, I think it was fifteen weeks, we got some nineteen — seventeen to nineteen thousand signatures, including every MP except the MP for Grimsby — Mr Crossland who refused to sign. Everybody else would sign for it, signed the petition. From Australia came signatures like Hughie Edwards, who was a VC from Bomber Command’s earlier years. A lot of famous people signed. A meeting was arranged and we met the minister for the Royal Air Force who was — Labour were in power at the time, a little Welsh gentleman called Mr Brynmor John, and an appointment was made for him to meet us at Swinderby, which was a very active RAF station in those days. We were told we would meet at, in the officer’s mess at Swinderby at 2.15 I think it was, and he would have to be leaving by 2.35, so we weren’t given very long to make our point to him. We duly got all the signatures bundled up and tied up with red ribbon, and Mrs Buttery, who was chairman, she came and she made a speech and photographs were taken, and we talked to the minister. It was noticed a little bit later that the group captain in the background who was, I think it was Group Captain Green, I’m not sure, but he seemed very agitated and he kept looking at his watch, and he was pacing up and down, and we were talking to the minister and the minister was talking back to us, and the time schedule that they’d set went completely wrong. I don’t know what happened to his — where he was going after he finished with us, but he ended up about an hour late. Anyway, the bottom line, we got the promise that they would look at it but they couldn’t make any promises and it was wait and see, which we really thought we were just being fobbed off to be honest. Within a few months, Jacko Jackson had taken over. He was then OC of the Battle of Britain flight at Coltishall and Jacko came to me and he said, ‘Stuart, I’ve got some news for you but this is, this is something that is so hush hush that you’re not — you can tell the committee, but you’re not to tell anybody outside the committee, and it’s not to get out because this information will have to be released by the ministry or the Royal Air Force. Not by — not come from outside. So you’ve got to, before I tell, you’ve got to tell me that you’ll make sure that you’ll not pass it on other to those that are sworn to secrecy’. So I said, ‘Yes Jacko, I’ll do what I can. I’m sure they’ll —’ Anyway, we duly had a meeting, I’d made a little bit of a gesture beforehand and we had, I think it was two or three bottles of champagne were put on the table at the meeting, and the rest didn’t know what it was all about, and there was three bottles of champagne or whatever and some glasses and, ‘Well? What have you got? Tell us’. So I said, ‘Well the story is that I’ve been told that the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight are going move back lock stock and barrel because we’d lost the Lancaster. We were now going to get the Lancaster complete with Spitfires and Hurricanes returned to the county but unfortunately, it wouldn’t be to Waddington. It would be to Coningsby. The reason why it’s not to Coningsby, we discovered later, er why it’s not at Waddington, we discovered later was the fact that the Waddington, the group that controlled Waddington in those days, were a different group that covered Coningsby. Our group at Waddington had given the Lanc to the other group where the Merlin spares were, and so that other group were not prepared to give the whole of the Battle of Britain Flight back to the group that it had — the Lanc had come from. So, it went to Coningsby. So in due course, all the aircraft came back to Coningsby and of course, this made them within much closer range and LLA — oh we’d gone through the ritual war dance of setting, of A) stopping being a committee any more. Becoming an Association, because people was wanting to, to join up. We had a thing going to raise the money, and have the deflection can made, so that it could put the upper turret on to the Lancaster, because in those days, she was a flat back and it was missing this mid-upper turret which they’d got. It had been sent from Argentina by the Royal Navy, it arrived at Tilbury docks or somewhere, and the phone call was sent to Waddington. ‘We’ve got a big crate here for you Waddington. Do you want to come and fetch it?’ ‘What is it?’ ‘It’s from the Argentine Air Force and it’s a piece of a Lancaster’. So it was fetched but they couldn’t fit it, because it was, they didn’t have the metal work to fix around it, to stop the guns from pointing in to the —shooting the tail fins off or shooting the back of the cockpit, so we — they came to us. And they said, ‘Would you like to — could you get this made?’ So we said, ‘Yeah, well of course. Why not?’ So again, our chairman, she had contacts within the engineering companies in Lincoln, which in those days were very big, and the plans were brought to us. She went off to see them and they’d agreed. ‘Yes, we’ll do that’, but when they saw the plans, because not only is this a strange shape but it tapers as the, as the fuselage narrows, as it goes down towards the tail, they suddenly decided they’d got too much work to do with oil rigs and they couldn’t, they couldn’t do it. So it was eventually came back. She said, ‘Well I’m sorry, I’ve failed with Lincoln completely. Anybody else got any ideas?’ So I said, ‘Well I was’, my task, I was an insurance broker, so I said, ‘Well I’ve got a company that I deal with in Grimsby called Marionette Engineering. I’ll talk to Peter Wild’, who was the boss who I’d known, again, for some years. I went and saw Peter, and I said, ‘Pete, I’ve got these plans. Can you, can your lot make this?’ They, the Marionam Engineering — basically their role was repairing trawlers that came back with damage, which is a bit, slight heavier metal than is used on an aircraft, so he looked at it and he said, ‘Well I don’t know Stu’, and made all sorts of — anyway I seem to have got this ability to keep talking non-stop, and I talked him — eventually he agreed to it, on the basis that it was to shut me up. I took the plans to them which, I’m sorry, which I’d got and he said, ‘Well come back in a month and see how, how we’re going on’, so I said, ‘Alright, but I bet you’ll have forgotten about it as soon as I’ve gone out the door’. ‘No I won’t, I daren’t face another barrage like I’ve had’. So I went back a month later and there, laid on the factory floor, was a large sheet of metal, which must have been measuring about twelve to fifteen foot square. A huge square. And upon it was spot welded various pieces of metal with the tops cut off at funny angles, and it represented something like a thing that you’d expect in one of these Indian type gentlemen who climb ropes and eat fire, that he would lay on a bed of nails. It looked like one of those. So, he, I said, ‘Well, I’m sorry. I think you’ve got that wrong haven’t you? Because it doesn’t make any sense’. ‘Oh we’ll make sense of it to you’, and he whistled up some of the fellas and they brought brown paper out and they draped brown paper around all these things, and suddenly it made the shape of what’s wanted, with the hole in the middle and it was, and suddenly it made sense. And I said, ‘Well that’s marvellous. I don’t know how you’ve done that’. ‘No, I don’t really’, he said, ‘But we’re trying’. Anyway, the, the flight had moved then, had moved back to Coningsby, and it came the day when this, this piece of metal would be transported to Coningsby to be fitted on the aircraft and of course, I went to watch this happen, and the lorry appeared from, from Grimsby. And the fellas that had made it came with it and they drove in the hangar, and they looked at the aircraft and they looked at what they’d done, and they said, ‘Good heavens, isn’t it big?’ And that was the general consensus. Anyway, the RAF had got some, some special platforms at each side of it so that this thing was lifted up by hand. The hole was made in the top of the fuselage where the turret was going to sit, and so the piece that they’d made was then fitted in the exact place where it would be when it was actually screw riveted or whatever they were going to do to the fuselage, and suddenly it looked right. It was — it was — the guys, the guys that had made it couldn’t believe that it was, it was so right. They discovered then that when, after they’d all looked at it and felt duly, duly pleased with what they’d done, the RAF were happy. They couldn’t get it off because they couldn’t get their fingers underneath the edges of it, where it fitted to the fuselage. It was such good a fit. They had to put their hands down the inside and lift it off, up, to get it off and that was duly fitted, and that was a few weeks later, the mid-upper turret that had been in storage for so long was then placed into its position on the bomber and she was no longer a flat back. So she had that on her and she had the City of Lincoln on the nose, which was a good tie to the county. Part of our other project when we’d started was that we wanted to get the Lancaster back to the county, but we realised if we got her back, we should maybe have to do something towards housing her, which would be an horrendous type job requiring a lot of money. So we set to and to raise funds by producing postal covers and appearing at air shows and doing anything we could to raise money, which we were, all in all, quite successful at. The job that we’d done on the Lancaster had made a lot of people say, ‘Can’t anybody join your committee?’ Well, a committee’s a committee, it’s not — it’s not for a lot of people, a huge lot, so we decided to call ourselves Lincolnshire’s Lancaster Association. Hence the LLA which it’s become known as today. We applied for charitable status, which we were granted on an educational. We were classified, as far as I can remember, as an educational charity because we were educating people as to what had gone on, and we was trying to extend the life of this aircraft as long as possible. The flight, the two years that Eric Gledhill have given us four years before, had long expired but she still continued and continues well to this day. The problems that Eric had outlined to us, which were unsurmountable in the, those days when it first started, were not on. Not on at all. But modern technology and the fact that the flight had now become very publicly known, and I think it was thanks to our efforts that it was put so well publicly known, that she had gathered a following of her own people. Initially there was not too many. All the ex-World War Two aircrews were interested, their families were interested, but the grandkids in those days didn’t seem too interested. And there was a lot of, ‘Well, maybe. Is it worth doing it?’ And whatever. We did have exciting moments like a royal visit was coming along, and it was decided that we should have the aircrew who, in those days, wore — they called them “growbags.” They were sort of browny coloured baggy flying suits with zips. Lots of zips in the front for pockets and maps and things. We decided the Red Arrows, who didn’t live in Lincolnshire in those days, they wore these fancy red flying suits, and it would be nice if we could get some for the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight bomber. Well we were only thinking about the bomber crews in those days. Get some black ones. I was told that Marks and Sparks were the firm, that was the firm to approach. So bearing in mind that was, it would be nice to think we could maybe, dare I say, scrounge them or persuade them to donate half a dozen flying suits for these Lancaster aircrew chaps to wear, but if need be, we would pay for them. So I duly went and saw the management of M&S to outline to them what we needed. They listened to me waffling on about, about what they did for the Red Arrows and could they do it for the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight etcetera, and was greeted with, ‘Well I’m sorry, but everybody’s heard of the Red Arrows, but nobody’s ever heard of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. Good day’. So I’m afraid we drew a blank, but the Queen was coming and Philip on a certain day in a month or two’s time, so I managed to get the blue prints for these “growbag” flying suits, and the Bracebridge Heath Ladies Sewing Circle made five flying suits to the measurements. Inside legs were taken for the manufacture of five black flying suits. These were duly worn when the royal visit came, with their badges of rank on their epaulets and the pilot’s brevets or whatever, whatever they were. And this went off very well, and photographs were in the papers of these black suited people standing in front of the Lancaster, and that was the first time anybody at the BBMF had ever had a black flying suit. We were not asked after that to, to repeat the thing, but somebody somewhere must have taken notice because suddenly black flying suits became available. Strange how these things can happen, but we think we maybe lit the touch paper with that one. So all in all, our efforts continue. We, we’d always been on the lookout for spare parts, there’s always an outcry for spare parts, and I remember a chicken farmer, I believe it was, somewhere in the back woods of Woodhall or that area. I got a phone call to say, ‘Is that Mr Stephenson’, and I said, ‘Yes, I was’, and he said, ‘Well, you don’t know me, but my name’s’, and I’ve forgotten his name, but he said, ‘We’ve just been put on the electric over here and’, he said, ‘I have got a Lancaster generator that’s been used since the war, ended for lighting up our chicken huts’. He said, ‘Now this is now surplus. We don’t need it ‘cause we’ve got the electric fitted on from the electric board and would you like it as a spare part for the Lancaster?’ So we said, ‘Yes, we’d be delighted’. So I duly went and collected this from the gentleman and it was handed over to them, and it had been driven by a tractor with a belt from a pulley to light — to make the electric for the chicken huts, but it worked alright and I think it was put into their stock, and it’s maybe still there or maybe not. Exhaust stubs, I was, each engine has got, I think it’s — is it six or eight of these down each side of the engines, so there’s all these exhaust stubs and they are always on the lookout for these things. And a sub aqua, a sub aqua club from up in Humberside contacted me. They had discovered an aircraft in the Humber that had been submerged for a long time, they’d managed to retrieve an engine which, when they’d sprayed all this mud and muck off it, it turned out to be a Merlin and they were going to clean it up to be put on display. Would we like — it looked new — would we like the exhaust stubs in exchange for some burnt out ones from the Lanc? So we said, ‘Yeah. We would be delighted’. So that was arranged, but the strange thing was this particular engine — research was done on it and it turned out to be, from all things, a Wellington that had crashed in the Humber in the very early part of the war. Now, we never discovered why, what it was doing up there but it had, it had crashed and it had sunk and it was recognisable from the serial numbers on the engine what it was from. The strange thing was that there was still oil in the sump and everything, of this engine so oil samples were taken out and sent to Conoco up there, who did some research on this oil and they came back and they said, ‘It’s as good as new. If you’ve got a lot of it, you can use it’. And it had been under water for I don’t know how many years, but I suppose oil doesn’t rot away does it? Anyway, that was another little offshoot that happened about this time. I think I’d like another break Dan, if you don’t mind, while I gather my wits.
DE: Ok. I’ll press pause again.
[Recording paused]
DE: Ok. It’s recording again.
SS: As far as the LLA side of things were concerned, we became a, we stopped from being a committee to the Lincs Lancaster Association. We became a limited company as well because we felt that this was — as we were attracting members, it was a way of not leaving responsibility for things in the hands of a few. It was to spread the thing about and to keep it on a proper company way of dealing with these matters as far as bookkeeping and the like. Charitable status was confirmed, we then had to make reports annually to Company’s House with regards to all the affairs of expenditure and what we’ve been doing. Likewise to the Charities Commission, which had to be approved by both of those. As I said, we continued to raise money, in those days with a great deal of help from the Battle of Britain flight themselves because we were — we were the only people of our type. The Red Arrows didn’t have a following like we had. We gained, we gained steadily a thousand, two thousand, three thousand. I think in my period as chairman which lasted for some, from about thirty six/seven years as chairman. I were chairman all that time mainly because no one else would do it, we gathered up to five and a half to six thousand members and it seems to have stuck at that level-ish, in that area. It’s fallen away, it falls away from time to time. Basically, finding volunteers to do the work that’s needed to be done is difficult. The roles of treasurer, of membership secretary and chairman I suppose. I don’t tend to think of it in my own terms, but these, these are roles that do take a lot of time, and as volunteers you don’t get paid and it’s — particularly the, the membership secretary who has to deal with members paying, members getting behind and dealing with cheques and sending out renewals. It used to be done by hand. We had a lovely lady called Sheila Wright who did it. She had big old fashioned — this was really before computers had got going, big old fashioned manuals that she used to do it all in the old fashioned way. She’d been an accounts lady for one of the local newspapers. Sheila used to do it and she was very reliable. She was retired, she gave her all seemingly all the time. There was never any problems. She decided she would go on holiday and she went. She was going on a bus trip, I remember they told me, she went to Unity Square in Lincoln, got on the coach, sat in the chair with her friend and died. She just sat there and passed away and that was shock. She was Sheila, and she’s dead. I’ve no idea what the cause of death was but this was a disaster for the LLA, because she’d been running this thing and picking it up from the bottom is very difficult when there’s so many things that is day to day running. She’d written to people to say you’ve not paid for so many months and either pay up or you’ll get nothing else. This has been an ongoing problem. With the advent of computers, one would think that this sort of becomes easier but we’ve had, we had, in my day, a series of membership secretaries who tend to find it, for some reason, more difficult to keep up with things when it’s on computer, then when it’s done in the old fashioned way. So I guess adding the columns up is easier when it’s done on a computer in Excel, but to do it as far as all the entering up is concerned and the typing in of names and the details., this is what takes a lot of time and identifying who’s due for renewal. And unlike other organisations, when we started we only had small numbers, and we decided that if somebody joined in January, his renewal would be in January every year, and if he joined, if somebody else joined in February, his renewal would be in February, so that means all the renewals are spread out over twelve months. Which again is very, yes, that’s good, but we find that other — since this and it still operates like this today I’m told, but since then other organisations, we find they’ve got one renewal date which is the day of the financial year ending, or in some cases the end of a year.
DE: Yes.
SS: So that then means you’ve got maybe, have five thousand coming in at once, but if you’ve, if you’ve got to deal with the banking side of five thousand, well that’s, that’s the easy bit in some senses but you can imagine that to handle all these things. This was before Pay Pal and direct debits and things as we know, know them so well today have come out. It, it was difficult then, but I’m told that it’s still difficult and it’s not a job that people want. If there’s anybody out there who is in to accountancy and wants a, one’s has got a volunteer spare time job, then this, their approach to LLA would be very much appreciated. Having said that, there’s recently been a piece in The Times following the lady’s — Childline was it called? The, the children’s charity that broke.
DE: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SS: A report on that and the, the, it’s, to me it’s opened my eyes a lot, because the result of that is that there was an official statement made — that for a charity to be successful, it must be run properly, which means that in a case of expecting volunteers to do everything is not acceptable if that doesn’t make, if that is failing to make the thing run below what it should be doing. It needs, if needs be, it must — the people must be paid to do the work on a normal footing, as if it was a proper job. They would be paid and this has to be paid out of the subscriptions or the money that’s raised, because if it’s not the whole thing, the bubble will burst, as it, as it, did in this recent one. So that is something for the future for them to look at now. I keep feeding these bits of advices to them, but whether they take any notice or whether they’ve got time to, because I’m afraid with all committees, you find that you’ve got one or two people that are very active and they can’t really do enough, and you’ve got a lot of people that like to sit back and do very little and throw criticisms and block everything, and generally cause mayhem, when it shouldn’t be like that if you’re all in for the same thing. The excuse that was, is usually given was, ‘Why are you saying this all the time?’ Is — ‘I’m playing devil’s advocate’, is a much used word, but I’m getting off the point. LLA continues today, it seems to be very successful. There was a time, a few years back, when the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight decided that they wanted to take over LLA, but when you’re a charity, you can’t really be taken over because you’re responsible for all that money in the kitty as the charity, and you can’t sort of give that over to something that’s going to be run as a business. A charity is a charity, and so the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, in their wisdom or not wisdom as I see it, have gone into partnership, or, or — is it partnership? They have a firm that produces their club they call it which you may see advertised, which is a, the reason for the club was given to me that, when it was started that the reason that that club was formed was that it was, it was to allow them to give money to other charities that were not necessarily involved with what the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight normally would be. To whit, the things like the Battle of Britain Memorial, sorry the Red Arrows John Egging Trust or whatever you call it. That was started by the widow of the Red Arrows pilot that was killed. They wanted us to give a chunk of money to them and we felt that, as trustees of that money which was raised for the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight’s benefit, it wasn’t right for us to do that. And this, because we wouldn’t do it, this seemed to cause a fracture which is, was completely uncalled for as far as we were concerned. But they, we wouldn’t be taken over and we wouldn’t do those sort of things, and so this caused them to form their own club. We continued to support them and when they want money for various projects that they’ve got which they invariably, if they get a budget for so much in a year, they want something that’s maybe beyond the budget or - at the moment, I’m speaking now today that there is a project next year for the anniversary of the Berlin Airlift. And the Lincs Lancaster Association will be or have been asked if we will pay, pay for the painting of the Dakota, to be painted into the colours used by the, during the Berlin Airlift, which I’ve been told they’ve agreed to pay, which is obviously the sort of things that’s needed which their club A) hasn’t got the money for and B) is not for that purpose. So as a retired chairman of many years, it’s left me feeling somewhat disappointed to find that they’ve made this sort of split. The charitable side of the fence seems to be quite disturbed because the flight seemed to publish as much as they could, “Join our club. Join our club”, there’s never any thought that the charity really needs the same. It’s due the same backing as the other one because over, over the years while I was chairman, I did try to work it out, and we’d donated for various projects, I think it was just over a half a million pounds for various things that would have been done over the years. Some quite expensive. We put all the, all the engineering books manuals which they’ve got — a huge collection of manuals on their airframes and all their aircraft all in wartime issue type books. We had all those put on, digitised, which I’m sure Dan knows all about. We provided them with a very big printer so that, when you’ve got a fold out document within a book that was scanned, so that it could be printed the size of the unrolled thing out, unfolded out of the book so that they could go in the hangar. If they wanted to know about Lancaster tail wheel, all they’d got to do was type in Lancaster tail wheel, it would come up, all the references they wanted. They could go to that page, print it off. Whether it was an A3, whatever. The biggest size you could think of, it would print it. The, I did receive a letter from the chief of the air staff thanking me for this that we’d done for the Flight, and by producing that book and putting it all on to, on to discs, I think it was in those days, that we’d saved them the equivalent of one and a half men a year in time saved looking for things, trying to find things in books. Today’s age, I’m afraid, those years have slipped by and it’s all forgotten, which is very sad I find. I’m sorry. I’m going off on a tangent.
DE: No. No. That’s fine.
SS: Now.
DE: How do you feel about the LLA supporting other aircraft other than the Lancaster?
SS: Well as far as I’m concerned, I’ve learned today that — I’ve been making some enquiries which — I get bees in my bonnet, being eighty years old now and I’m thinking, well I wonder why that is? And so, I sort of went through the very difficult task of googling a question and I find myself on to a website, a government website, which tells me that one charity with similar aims, can support another charity of similar aims so long, so long as the trustees of that charity agree that it can be done. Basically that’s the precis of what it says in a lot of language and it maybe needs somebody with a, with a lawyer’s degree to read that, to make it as easy as I’ve read it, but it does not, it means the door is open. And it means that in the case of, if we’re supporting the Lancaster, we read we’re set up as an educational charity so to my mind that leaves the door open that A) we can support the Bomber Command Memorial, which is educational with its Chadwick Centre, and it also means that if need be, we can support East Kirkby and its Lancaster, even though, in both cases they’re both charities in their own right, and the fact that they’ve got similar aims means what it means. This brought to mind because there was a piece, the Vulcan to the Sky people — there was a piece on their website which said they have come to an agreement, they’re now supporting the Typhoon Restoration Group. Not the RAF type of today but the wartime Typhoon aircraft, to rebuild one to put back in to the skies of Britain, and this has been supported by the Vulcan to the Trust and they’re both charities, and so I thought if they can both do it I will, I will check up on that see if that’s true and that’s what I’ve come out with this very day. So there’s, there’s hope for LLA to be able to help in other fields, but it still just amazes me that when we started, there was nobody doing anything like we’ve done for anybody else. We were one off. We were completely one off and then gradually, one can see that it’s fostered other ideas amongst other people who have come up with similar sort of things to what we’ve been doing. But as per this BBMF club that they’ve got — it’s, it’s been operated by a money-making firm who are producing various booklets and magazines and things for them, but all on a financial basis. Ours is basically all the administration is done, or has been done up till now, has been done by volunteers, and obviously, with what we’re learning now, since this kiddies thing went into bankruptcy and the results of what the enquiries have come up with, it means that maybe there’s a time to come before too long when it should be run on a proper fashion by employed staff. Only time will tell with these things I’m afraid, it’s a developing scene. I must admit that I got, I got poorly and had to retire, it would be four or five years ago now. The time flies by. I’d been doing the job too long I must admit, I was really getting tired with it. But it’s in my blood and I can’t get it out of my blood, and even though I’ve, I’ve got Parkinson’s and I’m still struggling to get about quite a bit, I’m dealing with about four projects that I’ve dreamt up myself, because nobody is, nobody’s thinking about doing these sort of things and by generating things that are home produced by the charity, that’s a lot more from a financial point of view. It’s a much better bet than buying something in for ten pounds and selling it for fifteen. If you can have it printed yourself and sell it for fifteen, you’ve got it a lot cheaper. Somebody else isn’t making a profit out of it before you get it in other words
DE: Sure.
SS: So I still keep doing, doing that and we’ll just have to see how long I last for, and how long it — how the situation develops, but I keep proffering my advice to the present chairman and whether he takes any notice of me, time alone will tell. But I maybe won’t be around to know whether he has or not, so I can’t think of anything else I can say at this stage Dan. Unless you’ve got any questions.
DE: I’ve got, I’ve got a few questions.
SS: Yeah.
DE: If you look at my page. Could you go back again to why it was you that you wanted to get involved in the first place, when you saw the thing in the paper about — ?
SS: It was just a gut reaction. Completely. Basically, my thought was, and I aired this in, I think I wrote a piece for the Lincolnshire Echo, and it was, I can’t remember the wording, but it was saying things like the next thing you know, officialdom will want to move Lincoln Cathedral to London. We felt it was such a, such a — the link between that aircraft and, in particular, in Waddington, which, Waddington — when the Lanc arrived at Waddington, three were delivered on Christmas Eve 1941. Three airframes for 44 Squadron, which was the first squadron to set up and with those three airframes came, I’ll not say a little army, but a group of people from the Avro factory, who were there to do modifications to these aircraft while they were, while they being put in to service almost. It was, it was an absolute — it must be done, and those people that came — a lot of them married local girls and there’s a lot of families in the Waddington area whose ancestors came from Cheshire and Woodford and Stockport and those places around. So the tie is not just — to a certain extent, it is sentimental but not a hundred percent. There is family links there that’s unbreakable. And by chance the same — another one of my projects which I’d better mention, is that we’re doing this booklet, myself and Toucan are producing this booklet to honour Roy Chadwick, who was the chap that designed the Lancaster and the Vulcan and Roy — he worked tirelessly to do it. But this business, the Lancaster was delivered to 44 Squadron and its first operation that it ever did, was mine laying. They divide the area of the sea around the cataract the North Sea in to areas, and all these areas were named after vegetables so these mining sorties were known as, as gardening sorties. Gardening was the first sortie that was undertaken by Lancasters from — well I was going to say from Waddington, but was it Coleby Grange? Because there was some stories that they would possibly had moved to Coleby Grange for some reason. Whether some work was being done at Waddington, but they were done basically from Waddington, because that’s where the headquarters was. Years later, when the Lanc finished, it of course went on past the end of the war, and in the mean — before, I think before it had finished, the Vulcan had been accepted into the RAF. It came into service at Waddington as well, so there’s another link between Avro and Waddington. The first, the first sortie for the Lanc was a gardening sortie. The last one of the war, on the last day of the war, believe it or not, was a gardening sortie. They’d started off gardening, they’d ended up gardening, and it is said that the Bomber Command sank more ships than the Navy during World War Two. I haven’t seen an exact figure to that but it is spoken about quite openly, and I don’t know whether your researchers have found anything to that effect.
DE: I’ve not looked at that. I think we might have to find someone to have a look at that.
SS: I think there’s a certain mythology about it, because if they’d put, put mines in the North Sea they’re not, they wouldn’t be aware that one of these had struck a ship and sunk it on that spot. How would they know? That’s something that doesn’t add up but that’s, that’s often said. And coming back to the Vulcan in service with Waddington, well the Vulcan went out of service and what squadron took it out of service? It was 44 Squadron — Rhodesia Squadron who took it out of service, who brought the Lanc in years before. They flew the last Vulcan bomber practice mission and then a valedictory flypast, which will all be in this new thing that we’re producing and there’s another coincidence that 44 is involved twice with the two different airframes, though 44 didn’t bring the Vulcan into service. Next question?
DE: It’s another one about how do you feel about how the Lancaster and Bomber Command is remembered today?
SS: Yeah. Bomber Command is — has been very badly treated over the years. I was a great believer in Winston Churchill. His speech, his speechifying shall we say, was second to none when it came to the war and keeping the morale of the country high, but the fact that he, he cut himself off from Bomber Command following the Dresden raid, which is infamous, and he fell literally, we fell or our authorities fell for the propaganda that was put out by Dr Goebbels and his people at the Ministry of Propaganda within the Nazi party. They put this out and we swallowed it hook, line and sinker basically and this, this made that, this changed Bomber Command were upset. There was no medal issued, which has been an ongoing thing for all these years and still, still despite what they did, it still there’s still people complaining about it even though I’m afraid the veterans are getting very long in the tooth, and going back to the Dresden thing, Harris was, was vilified almost for allowing it to take place but what they seem to forget is that Churchill had gone off to, I think it was Yalta, on a conference. The command of the Royal Air Force as such was in the hands and the decision making was in the hands of Portal. Portal was the one that decided where they were going to bomb. The Russians wanted Dresden to be bombed because they felt it was being used as a railway junction for supplying arms and men to the Eastern Front. They wanted it wiping out. I’m told, reading, and I forget who wrote the book, there’s a very good book on Dresden, and when it turned out that the, this raid, this day and night attack thing that took place originally there was three choices I believe. And Dresden was the one that was chosen because when they wanted to start it, was best from the weather point of view. The weather was the restricting thing. It was Portal that gave the order, not Harris. Harris did as he was told. He was outranked, and yet the ones that made the decisions at the top have sort of turned their back on it and left the lower ranks to carry the can as you might say. And the can was carried right down to the fellas that flew on those missions, because they was the ones that was made to feel like they were murderers, and there was no medal issued and there was just a pathetic silence from the government. Which to me over the years, the number of these fellas that I’ve met was beyond my dreams, that I would ever meet so many of them and to a man, this was always something that has created a lot of heated expression and the fact that Winston changed — turned his back on Bomber Command has never been forgotten. I can’t really say much more on that one then I can think of at the moment. It’s been a tricky subject I’m afraid, but the strange thing is that the Americans — one would think that they took no part in Dresden. They, they have not been treated the same way as our lads did. One, I think it was day, the RAF went at night and the Americans went by day, which was the way things were run in those days, and the RAF went by night as they did and the first raid took place and it was calamitous. It was fire storms was soon going. The Americans went back the next day, they saw a lot of smoke rising and they bombed, and it was later discovered that they had actually bombed Chemnitz, which was not the target. Dresden. They’d gone to the wrong place. So that, that says it all to a certain extent. Sorry Uncle Sam, you’ve, you’ve — their side of it has been forgotten. One would think it was only an RAF event, it was not a joint services thing. And I’ve never heard any, any words from the American top brass, commanders of the 8th Air Force, if it was the 8th that was involved in that event, that they’ve never had anything really to say about it. It’s just been another day and the RAF seem to have copped for the, to use an old country expression, the sticky end of the stick. Next question Dan.
DE: I think on a happier note, you’ve talked a little bit about the people that you’ve met. Could you go into, you know?
SS: Well yes, I’ve been very lucky that I’ve met, I’ve met so many. I’ve got a book here, I’ll just have to open it up to get my memory. I’ve carried this book with me and if I’ve met people who, who —
DE: So it’s, “The Lancaster at War”.
SS: “Lancaster at War” volume one. The first thing, when I open the pages, I’ve got a letter here from RV Jones at the Department of Natural History, Aberdeen University dated 18th of January 1979. RV Jones doesn’t mean a lot to Dan, I can see he’s wrinkling his eyebrows. Jones was one of the brains of — he was the man that bent the beams. He was, well all I can suggest is he’s so, he’s such a nice fellow and he’s so knowledgeable. Unfortunately, he’s no longer with us like so many of these people aren’t. I’ve got two or three letters here from him, but there are, he’s written. He did write books and I’ve got a copy of his book which he’s duly signed for me, and that is one of my treasured possessions because it’s such a fascinating book. That he flew, he was, he was involved in coming out with these scientific ideas. He was, he was a confident of Churchill and the top. A boffin as they were called in those days and he was — he was a great guy. I’ve got Crumb, Henry. Henry Crumb. Augsburg raid to you. I was lucky. Bert, Bert Doughty. These were the guys that went to Augsburg. I’ve got letters from Henry Crumb, Bert Doughty, David Penman. Where are we? Oh, that’s another one from Henry Crumb. There’s another one. Augsburg raid. The chap, John Nettleton got the VC on the Augsburg raid. When the Lancaster was moved to Coltishall in Norfolk, there was a young WAAF officer who he met and he married, called Betty, and Betty Nettleton was a WAAF at, at Coltishall of all places when I went to, we did a postal cover and I had to try to find these people, and I thought well I’d like to try and find Betty Nettleton. So I made some enquiries and did some detective work, and I discovered — I’ve got a letter here from her. She worked for the National Westminster Bank Company Limited at Lombard Street, London. When I had to contact her, she didn’t know me from Adam so I thought well the best thing, is to ring her up and I got the telephone number from somebody, which was a different number on the letter she wrote to me, because I had a number of communications with her, but I’ve got this letter and the strange thing was, she said that if her husband had still be alive, he’d be turning in his grave if he’d got one to think that the Lanc was moved to Coltishall. To a fighter base from a bomber base. She wouldn’t like that at all and made that point very strongly, and the strange coincidence was that her telephone extension number at this National Westminster Bank was 474, and she didn’t realised the significance of her extension number on her telephone. It was 474 was our Lanc’s PA474 which was a coincidence. So that was Betty Nettleton. What have I got here? Oh, another one of the — Patrick Doorhill, he was another Augsburg raid survivor. There’s two letters from him. Sorry, three letters from him. What have I got one here. Oh, this is one from — “Dear Stuart”. This is very nice green-headed paper from Air Chief Marshal Sir Peter Squire KC. Oh, he’s got so many titles after his name, Ministry of Defence, Chief of the Air Staff. “Dear Stuart, I’ve just heard of the magnificent effort of Lincolnshire’s Lancaster Association in scanning the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight’s servicing manuals on to cd rom. Such a practical initiative is not only a great help to the BBMF but also displays, in a very material fashion, your interest and support for a most important part of our nation’s heritage. I would be most grateful if you would pass on my sincere thanks and congratulations to your members for a job well done. My very best wishes for your continued success. Yours sincerely, Peter Squire”, and that’s addressed to me. So that’s, those are just some letters that are tucked in the first page of the book. Well I turn the page over, I will see some names that will maybe ring a few bells with people. Page one, believe it or not, the one at the top of the page is Bob Stanford Tuck. Bob Stanford Tuck, in case you don’t know, was not a bomber pilot but he was a Battle of Britain ace. He was the original brill cream boy I’m told. He was always a very flashy type. If you, if you google Bob Stanford Tuck, you’ll see what I mean. But looking down the page we’ve got Gus Walker. Now I met Gus at Swinderby. Gus was a famous man. He was, he was a one-armed man, he lost an arm at Syerston when he was — well the story was, one story was that he walked into a propeller that was — and it took his arm off. The other story was that he’d gone to try to rescue someday from a burning aircraft, and it exploded and he’d been thrown out, so I’m not quite certain of that one. Looking down the list is Mr Chandler, 170 Squadron. We’ve got various, various names. We’ve got David Penman, David Brotherick, Bert Doughty of course. We’ve got Mary Chadwick which is — Mary Chadwick was Roy Chadwick’s widow, the mother of Rosemarie Lapham, nee Chadwick, and Margaret Dove who was his other, Roy’s elder daughter. She has been in the forefront of it, well while she was alive, parading her dad’s name around the world. Rosemary was the, some nine years younger and she’s really kept in the background until her sister died and then she’s come a little to the foreground, but they are getting, she’s getting a very old lady now as well of course. I’m sure she wouldn’t be upset if she knew I was saying that. Looking below it, would you believe it or not, I’ve got John Chatterton KMY, 44 Squadron and I’ve got underneath him is Bill Berry and he was, he’s got VNG which is 50 Squadron so they were good friends but obviously on different squadrons at the time when, when they were in operations. Some of these names that I’m struggling to read are the names of some of the chaps that survived the dams raid who are no longer with us. Now looking on the next page, the one at the top of the page is Lord Lilford. Now Lord Lilford won’t mean much to anybody except Mrs lilford, but Lord Lilford was the chap that, that bought NX611 which is now today Just Jane at East Kirkby. He bought it when it was put up for auction at Blackpool, and having left it at Blackpool for a while, he then said to the RAF, ‘You can have it as a gate guardian at Scampton providing you’ll remove it to Scampton and possibly refurbish it before it goes on the gate’. So he was responsible for it being on the gate, until it was eventually he decided to get rid of it, and the Pantons, who’d, who’d bid for it in the early stages and hadn’t bid enough, they then bought it. So it then moved to East Kirkby. Now we come to some dams people. We have Geoff Rice, Basil Fenera, Jack Buckley, they were all people that had survived the dam’s raid. I met them at Scampton and I’m not sure which one, but he had he showed me his car ignition key with a chain, a little bit of chainy stuff on it, and on it was a thing that I could say was something like that you bleed the air out of a radiator. A little key. And when they came back from the dams raid, he walked around under the aircraft and that was dangling on a lanyard and this was the key that was pulled out of the bomb when it fell off, the spinning bomb, when it fell off to make it live and as it fell away from the aircraft, it was only when that was pulled out that it became live, and he’d seen that and he just took it off and put it in his pocket, and he’d now got it on his [unclear]. I often wonder what happened to that. If somebody realised what they’d got and maybe threw it away when it was — [pause]. Underneath that, we have Ken Sneller, who I’ve remarked about before. He was the Lancaster captain when it was at Coltishall before Jacko took over. He’s put Lancaster, he’s put Lancaster captain PA474. November 1974. I’ve got Mary Stopes Roe, daughter of Barnes Wallis signed there. Somebody Smith, that could be anybody couldn’t it? I’m not sure who he is. Somebody Johnson or something. BE Johnson. HI Cousins. There’s a famous name which Dan’s looking as if he’s never heard of. Air Commodore Cousins as he was, part of the Sneider Trophy outfit. But he was, I’m not quite sure of his role, but he made a lot of, he scrounged colour film from the Americans to make a educational, not an educational — a thing to educate the RAF up and coming aircrew as to how to go about things. And the film that was slowly cobbled together, was issued on DVD and is still available today. It’s called, “Night Bombers”. You see all those Lancasters taking off from Hemswell in a row, he was responsible for that film. I did say, I said to him, there was one particular shot if people have seen that film, where they, they’ve got a Lancaster and the camera runs from the navigator, whatever, behind the pilot and it trundles through to the pilot and it moves up and down the fuselage, and I said to him, ‘How did you get that?’ And he said, ‘Oh it’s quite simple Stuart. We just took a Lancaster and carved it in half’. So they cut a Lanc down the middle and then they put, sat the man in his seat as he would be in his half and then they filmed that. And that was, that was something else. The BB — sorry — the BBC — our government didn’t have any colour film in those days, and he had to scrounge it from the Americans he said. But some of the films that were shot by him at that time were quite unique. Like Fido, lighting Fido. At that, Fido was something that hadn’t really been heard of, but Fido was the fog dispersal, whatever it was called. It was the way by burning petrol down the side of the runway to clear fog. That was the theory, but what it cost in miles per gallon I hate to think. Looking down, oh here’s one, Barnes Wallis. Barnes Wallis. Next to him, we’ve got Jacko Jackson had signed it. Below him, we’ve got one of the forces sweethearts of those days, Anne Shelton. Next to Anne Shelton, we’ve got Michael Redgrave, the actor who played Barnes Wallis in the film, so I’ve got Barnes Wallis and Michael Redgrave close together. Below Michael Redgrave, I’ve got Richard Todd who I became very friendly with. Unfortunately, I couldn’t get Guy Gibson because he was wasn’t around to sign. Pat Daniels, he was quite famous. 35 Squadron, 83 Squadron and 97 Squadron. He was — Pat Daniels I think was one of the Augsburg guys, again, I’m not, I can’t remember this. My memory’s fading a little. David Shepherd the artist has signed here, “After a memorable”, let me just get this, “After a memorable day of pure nostalgia in with PA474. Kind regards. November the 4th 1976. Coningsby”. That was the day then, David came and took photographs on which he based the painting that was, was his famous Lancaster painting, which you’ve, you’re people will have seen and I can claim that on that picture, you’ve got a fuel bowser trailer to the right — an oil bowser trailer to the right of the picture which I located for them. Belonged to a farmer, that he used to, he put diesel in it and he used it for tractors that were ploughing well away from roads and everything. And there was, what was it? A bomb trolley with no bombs on it, but the bomb trolley that I’d got collected up from a local scrapyard or some similar thing for that particular painting. But the, it was all done outside the BBMF hangar, which doesn’t appear on the actual painting because it’s, it’s David’s. The way he’s portrayed it. He wanted, I remember on the day, he wanted — he suddenly decided he wanted reflections, so they had to get the fire service. The Coningsby fire section had to attend and they had to pour gallons and gallons of water on the concrete below the Lanc and in front of it, so that he could get the reflection off the concrete of the bomber. That’s the sort of power you’ve got when you can draw out the fire service to do those sort of things. Turning the page again, well I’ve got best wishes from Brian Goulding. Good old Brian. I don’t know. The last time I heard of Brian, he wasn’t very good. Mike Garbutt his co-author has signed as well. We’ve got Johnny Johnson who’s become quite famous these days. “Best wishes Stuart”, that was John Pringle who was the engineering officer who was in charge of the refurbishment of NX611 when it went to Scampton. John Searby is another one, Air commodore, he was a master bomber on amongst the Pathfinders who put himself at risk. He was the master bomber on the raid on Peenemunde for instance, and many other big raids. I met him two or three times. Arthur Harris, Marshall of the Royal Air Force. He did sign for me when I was, when I got to speak with him down in London. Did I mention the meeting with Barnes Wallis? I was introduced to Barnes Wallis down at the RAF Museum and, ‘This is Mr Stephenson’, and he looked at me and bear in mind, he was ninety plus, and he said, ‘Oh I’m pleased to meet you. I’ve heard of you’, he said. And just imagine, how you meet somebody that — I mean Barnes Wallis to me, with his designs of the bombs, going up to the Swallow, his supersonic aircraft —to have him say that was just — took my breath and I couldn’t, I was lost for speech, which is unusual for me as you maybe notice. And I said, ‘Well how on earth could you have heard of me?’ And he followed that up with an even more strange thing. He said, ‘Not only have I heard of you, Mr Stephenson, I owe you a debt of gratitude’, and I thought, I don’t know what this is going to come out as but I shall going to dine out on this one forever, because this is, this is God talking to me in person almost. So I said, ‘Well you’ve got me on two. How on earth can you have heard of me and how on earth do you owe me a debt of gratitude?’ He said, ‘Well’, he said, ‘You’re the fellow who got that deflection can made so they could put the mid-upper turret on the Lancaster, aren’t you?’ I said, ‘Yes. Yes. You’re right’, he said, ‘Well the debt of gratitude is A) that you got it done and B) that if you hadn’t got it done, they told me they were going to ask me to organise it’. I said, ‘I didn’t realise I was in competition Sir Barnes, otherwise I would maybe have surrendered’. He said, ‘Good job you didn’t because all the people that I know in sheet metal work, unfortunately they are no longer any of them with us. I have no contact with anybody at all. So’, he said, ‘I would have been in real trouble if you hadn’t done it’. So that was a good one. Unlike Sir Arthur Harris, who I met on the same day who unfortunately, and I’m not exaggerating when I say he was a very difficult man to talk to, because he appeared to be somewhere else though I was talking to him. It was very difficult to try to make a conversation, a meaningful conversation with somebody when they don’t answer any questions, and they just say yes and no and as little, seems as little as possible. I must admit I was rather overtaken by, he was wearing his best blue, which with his ranks and decorations and things that he’d achieved over the years. I think he maybe had two best blues but this one must have been a spare or something, because I was trying to talk to him and try to keep this conversation going, which wasn’t really a conversation, and I was transfixed by his blue which had an assortment of holes all over it, onto which had his various badges and ribbons and stars and clusters and things were obviously meant to fit through the holes on his coat, and have little pins in the back to hold them in place, so that when he was dressed properly, he would have all this tin work on his chest and down but he didn’t. He hadn’t put them on or he’d put the wrong coat on when he came, and I thought he’s been attacked by a fleet of killer moths. That just came in my head and I’ve remembered that ever since. Sorry. Sorry Sir Arthur, that’s mean of me to say that. Right. We’re on to Searby down. Looking down the page, I’ve got Don Bennet who of course, Don Bennet was the leader of the Pathfinders and the AOC of the Pathfinders. Next to him, just underneath Bomber Harris, we’ve got Hamish Mahaddie, who was a broad Scot of course who was likewise famous in his own right as a Pathfinder I believe, but he was the guy that put all the aircraft together for the famous film The Battle of Britain, which was a major job that. Getting those vintage aircraft together to make that film. Underneath his name is one that I’ve just told you earlier on, the letter heads, Betty Nettleton has signed the book. Now hang on a minute. Hamish Mahaddie, I’ve done Don Bennett, I’ve said him, and the last one that page is Tony Iverson, 617 Squadron. Those are the front cover pages, but I think I should have to go through the book, but some of the pictures inside the book — there’s the odd one or two that’s maybe got the odd autograph on it, because it’s something they were connected with, but I should have to have a good search for that to find it, but I really must get a note made of all these signatures because you’ve had a look at them and you know how difficult it would be to interpret some of them, because I have a struggle to interpret them some of them — who they are — myself. But there’s enough names to keep somebody with google going for quite a while to sort out who they were. These, these are just the ones sometimes I’ve not had the book with me. I’ve met. I’ve met through business, as well as the Lancaster Association, quite a few of the German side of the fence and one of the interesting ones I met was Hajo Hermann or Hajo Hermann, who was the head of German night fighters. He was asked to form a group equivalent to the Kamikaze amongst the German night fighters towards the very end of the war, but that never got going. I guess they weren’t as, quite as fanatical as the Japanese. He was, he was, he told me a good story. Before the war, well before the war started, the 1930s, he was an officer in the Army would you believe, and he, he was with his soldiers and they were trawling through a swamp, he called me, he told me and lo and behold, there was two or three chaps came up on horses and they sat on their horses watching these fellows crawl through the sludge and muck and general mess, and they were covered in it and eventually one of these people on the horse said, ‘Did you enjoy doing that?’ Not in. I’m not going into “Allo. Allo” German but, ‘Do you enjoy doing that?’ And he said, ‘No’. He didn’t really — he could think of better things to do, and this gentleman said, ‘Well why don’t you join my Luftwaffe instead? We’re just reforming’, and it was Goering. So he, he said, ‘Oh yes. I’ll bear that in mind sir’, or something. Anyway, he went back and he thought well he was due for a change, he was fed up of these swamps, so he joined. He sought out Goering and reminded him and he said he’d be pleased to, and they became friends and he joined the Luftwaffe. He was involved in the war in Spain and then later, he bombed Hull would you believe, amongst other places. He was involved in the bombing of Norway, the Blitz in London, he was involved in the Mediterranean war. He told me a story. He was — they were tasked to attack ships in the harbour, a big harbour in Greece, the name’s gone from me at the moment and they were told they’d got to drop mines in the, in the harbour. That was the task and he said he didn’t want to drop mines, he wanted to drop a bomb. So he duly disobeyed orders and he took a bomb with his mine load, and when he came to dropping the bomb, he dropped it and there was a ship moored out in the, in the harbour. I’m sure the name is going to come back to me in a minute but it won’t at the moment. It hit this ship and the resultant explosion was enormous. Apparently, it was an ammunition ship that was waiting to be unloaded, and it was called the Clan Fraser I believe. He told me. It blew the windows out in Athens which was five or six miles away. A long way away anyway. It wiped out the airport, sorry the harbour, it wiped the harbour out, and as a result, it had a dire effect on British resistance, because it was our ammunition that they’d blown up. And his aircraft was very badly damaged and he coaxed it back to his home base, and was immediately got into trouble for disobeying orders, but when it was discovered what had happened, he got a medal. But he was the only officer in the Luftwaffe, he gained equivalent rank to group captain as I understand it, and he was the only one who could walk in to Goering’s office without an appointment. He could knock on the door and walk in and nobody else could do that. He was made the chief of night fighters amongst his other, because he’d been on bombers. He’d been involved with the invasion of, I think it was Salerno, or Anzio, I’m not sure. Anzio or Salerno when they first used the Fritz X wire guided, I think it was wire guided missile which was used to great success there, and he went to Goering and he said that he’d had this idea. They’d built, Blom and Voss had built some massive flying boats, which were already flying, and his idea was that they would use these flying boats, arm them with a whole load of these Fritz X missiles, which at the speed they fly, they could sort of climb out and reattach to the wings. They would fly out in to the Atlantic, find convoys and with these things they could play havoc in a convoy. They would pop ships off left, right and centre and that would, that would be a — these aircraft were comparatively cheap to make in comparison to the cost of a submarine and its crew. The, the expenditures would — for one submarine, they could maybe build a squadron of these flying boats and Goering thought it was a brilliant idea, and he’d go and see Doenitz. So he made an appointment and he went to see Doenitz. Goering made the appointment for him I think, and when he got there, he met Doenitz coming out of his headquarters, walking down the steps and he saluted him and he said who he was. ‘Oh, you’re the gentleman that has got this idea’. And he explained it all to him and he said that he felt that this would save an awful lot of people’s lives, on submarine crews, who were having a bit of a beating by this time, and it could maybe turn the war even, because we were relying so much on these ships bringing food and arms across the Atlantic, plus building up for D-day. And apparently, having listened to it all, Doenitz reaction was, ‘So you want to be my corporal do you?’ Or something, and he said, ‘I’ll think about it’, and he turned away and it never got thought of again, because Doenitz didn’t want to lose his position as commander of U-boats. Well that was Hermann. There was another guy who was shot down, a German pilot, fighter pilot who was shot down in the Battle of Britain, whose name again eludes me, but I think I’ve got a print that he signed for me. He was shot down and he came down unconscious and he landed on a road, and he was laid on a road, when he came to and there was a crowd of people around him, and he didn’t know whether he was in France or in Italy or where he was in the UK. So there was a guy tending to him, and the guy in German said, ‘Don’t move’, and started reassuring him that he was alright and he thought, I’m in Germany or I’m in France at least, and it turned out that the fellow that was looking after him was the son of, was it Gerald Henderson as it, who was the British ambassador in Berlin when war broke out, and the son was a doctor, who was British of course, and lived in this country and a million to one chance he, he looked after this German guy who was shot down. His daddy had been the ambassador in Berlin. So that was, that was a good one. There was Winkle Brown of course, I met him a few times. Cats-eyes Cunningham. Again these, these are not bomber names. There was the guy that flew Boxcar. It doesn’t mean a thing to you does that? This was the American that dropped the bomb, was it Hiroshima the second one? Or Nagasaki?
DE: Nagasaki was the second one.
SS: Yeah. Well Boxcar was the one that dropped the bombs. I met the pilot of that who was a very nice fella, and he told me this story that they’d had, they’d gone to one place and it was covered in mist and they couldn’t see the target, so they’d gone somewhere else and by the time they’d done what they had to do to get into position, dropped the bomb and then fly back they, they was virtually running out of fuel and they literally got back and they didn’t have enough fuel hardly to get off the main runway before it stopped. But that was — his aircraft was Boxcar. Which was, which was a good one. Jimmy Dell, there was another good name that I met several times. Jimmy Dell. Little fella. Jimmy Dell was, he was a test pilot for English Electric as it was. He test flew Lightnings in their early stages. He took over or he joined Roland Beamont who I’d met, to fly a TSR2. And TSR2 Beaumont, he was the lead, he was the chief test pilot. He was, our man was second. He — the promotion occurred and our man moved up to first position. They were, they were flying test flights from Boscombe with it. He — he was involved when it was flown from Boscombe up to Wharton. The TSR2 was flown up there to demonstrate it to the people that made it, to show how good it was, and they decided that he would fly it up over through the Welsh mountains, the TSR2, at low level. Jimmy would follow him in a Lightning as a chase plane, just in case there was anything went wrong because they were taking telemetry from it, which was in its early stages in those days. They set off and he followed. The TSR took off, he followed. He tried to follow him and he couldn’t stay with him. He had to climb up to — I don’t know — some big altitude to get because it was so much buffeting in those mountains that he couldn’t live with that. Apparently the TSR2 flew through it like butter through a knife you might say. It arrived at Wharton and had landed when Jimmy comes over with the Lightning, just caught up with him. That was a good story, but Jimmy again he told me they were, they were doing a test flight and they went in the morning, and the crew chief said, ‘We’ve got a snag. You can’t fly today I’m afraid, but come back after lunch’. So they said, ‘Right’. So him and the navigator guy that he had with him, they went off to a local pub and had a pub lunch and was playing bar billiards, and the landlord said, ‘It’s the budget day today. Do you mind if I put the radio on?’ And they said no, and they were playing, and they was making the announcements, and they announced the TSR2 was cancelled, so they grabbed their flying helmets and everything, got in their car, rushed back to the airfield, ‘Are you ready to go chief? We’re ready’. ‘Sorry. It’s all cancelled’, and they couldn’t believe, he couldn’t believe it was. They’d been told it had, was cancelled immediately apparently, so they went back to his office where he’d got all his records and everything, and his office had been ransacked. They’d took all the, all the, all the records that he’d kept of the test flying and observations, and everything on it had been taken away, leaving very little on the shelves, because that was his job as chief test pilot by that time of course. And he said it was, that was the worst day of his life. And again, he was such a nice fella. They went, they broke all the jigs and everything to make so if there was a change of government, it was Labour because Denis Healey was the man. He’d apparently said it wouldn’t be cancelled before the election to keep the unions on side, and then immediately when they were voted in, it was changed. Never forgive Denis Healey for that. Nor can I forgive Lord Louis Mountbatten, because apparently the Australians were up for buying TSR2, and Lord Louis Mountbatten bad mouthed it like crazy and they backed out, and that really helped its demise. But they’d even got to the stage that they’d got a firm making these big models of TSR2 for recruiting office windows, and they, they broke, they went into the factories where they were making these models and smashed them all up. They destroyed everything on it, and Jimmy was telling me all this and he’d got this big model, and I said, ‘Well hang on. You just told me they smashed them all up’. He said, ‘Years later this was presented to me’. It was, it had been separated from all the rest. It had a dustsheet or something over it and it survived and that was, that was that one. It came to his retirement — Jimmy, and it was his last day and there was a knock on his office door, and this fella came in with a box and some stuff in it, and he said he said Jimmy said, ‘Hello’, you know and the fella introduced himself and he said, ‘Look, I’m one of the guys that had to go in your office and extract all the paperwork on the TSR2’. He said, ‘We were instructed to take it to so and so and it was all to be burned. Shredded. Destroyed’, he said, ‘But I couldn’t do it all, so I’ve brought you this’. This is what — and he had a box full of stuff that he’d kept. Gone against orders. So Jimmy, he hasn’t said what he did with that, but I guess he gave it to some museum somewhere. But he’s not with us anymore unfortunately. He banged out of a Lightning aircraft and there’s a famous picture of a tractor in a field and a Lightning coming down nose down.
DE: I’ve seen it. Yeah.
SS: That’s Jimmy Dell banged out of that. Sorry, I’ve gone on again.
DE: That’s quite alright. That’s some wonderful stories. Been talking for over two hours and that’s two hours on the tape. There was more when it was on pause. So —
SS: Have you got any more?
DE: I’m just looking. I think we’re going to have to, going to have to call it a day there anyway, but I think we’ve covered most of the questions I’ve got written down.
SS: Yeah.
DE: Yeah. No. That’s absolutely wonderful. Thank you very much. Have you anything else that you’d like to add?
SS: Well no. Personally, I’ve done my bit to help Nicki. I’ve given her quite a lot of stuff from my own collections to sell, and I’ve arranged, before we knew that charities couldn’t give to charity, I made an arrangement with the chairman of LLA that I bought stock that was maybe worth a thousand or two for twenty five quid, which I presented then to Nicki. It cost me twenty-five quid but that’s that was my donation again. That went to the LLA to pay for these things, so that it wasn’t — can’t be logged as a gift, but we maybe needn’t have to bothered with that now, if that’s — it’s on the government website if I’ve read that correctly.
DE: Yeah. We’ll have to have a look at that.
SS: But we’ve got, we’ve got this booklet coming out on the Chadwick thing.
DE: Yes.
SS: And I told you about the university and the picture.
DE: Yes.
SS: If you, if you google Roy Chadwick and go on pictures, you’ll find there’s a picture of Roy, the Lanc and the Avro badge on a landscape type painting, which we’ve got permission to put on the, use in this book.
DE: From Manchester University.
SS: Yeah. And I would imagine that’s maybe going to be a good money spinner, because it will be a book that’s only going to cost five or six quid. I sent her an email back, thanking her so much. She’s not mentioned, I asked if there was any charge when I sent the question, if there’s any charge, please let me know. She’s not mentioned that so I sent her a message back, thank you so much for your help and we were just wondering if there was going to be a charge made for us to use this. I don’t suppose there will be though.
DE: Hopefully not. Hopefully not. Well thank you for the interview. Thank you for all you’ve done for the IBCC and the things that you’ve donated, donated for us to scan.
SS: I’m pleased to help Dan, and if I can do anything else to help while I’m mobile, I will.
DE: Smashing. Thank you very much. Right. I shall press stop.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Stuart Stephenson MBE
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-15
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AStephensonS160315
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Second generation
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
02:16:01 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Stuart was five when war broke out and recounts some of his early memories.
In the early 1970s the Lancaster PA474 was flown to RAF Waddington from RAF Henlow ostensibly to be a gate guardian. In 1973 the Lincolnshire Echo announced that it was to be moved to RAF Coltishall. A group gradually formed to oppose the move because of the Lancaster’s connections to Waddington; the Lincolnshire Lancaster Committee. A public meeting was held and the City Council agreed to adopt the Lancaster. The Lancaster moved to RAF Coltishall. The committee collected over 17,000 signatures in 15 weeks and eventually the Lancaster returned to RAF Coningsby.
The committee became Lincolnshire’s Lancaster Association so funds could be raised. While Stuart was Chair for c. 36 years, £½ million was donated to projects, including the digitisation of manuals.
Stuart describes how unfairly he felt Bomber Command and Sir Arthur Harris were treated.
Stuart lists a large number of people he has met, received letters or signatures from.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
Vivienne Tincombe
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Chadwick, Roy (1893-1947)
childhood in wartime
Goering, Hermann (1893-1946)
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
perception of bombing war
petrol bowser
Portal, Charles (1893-1971)
RAF Coltishall
RAF Coningsby
RAF Waddington
service vehicle
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8827/PStockerEE1601.2.jpg
dc2149cee1df664fefc275fb3f1a16c4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8827/AStockerE150726.2.mp3
7e15241140da7cda2f348cf1f0899645
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stocker, Ted
Edward Ernest Stocker DSO DFC
E E Stocker
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stocker, EE
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker DSO DFC (b. 1922, 573288 Royal Air Force). He flew 108 operations as a pilot and navigator with 7, 35, 102 and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-23
2016-08-30
2016-10-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton, the interviewee is Edward Stocker. The interview is taking place at Mr Stocker’s home in Clanfield, Hampshire on the 26th of July 2015.
ES: My name is Edward Ernest Stocker but I’d be glad it if you called me Ted Stocker. I was born in August 1922 and I joined the Air Force at the age of fifteen in January 1938. I became — I went to Halton, became one of the Trenchard brats, er, and from there on, I was in the Air Force and life took its natural course with the war on. I started out as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. The Halifax really did need a flight engineer because the aircraft was originally designed to bomb Germany from advance bases in France. The idea before — early on in operations we bomb — although you got our bombs in England then flew to France, refuelled so that we could reach Germany but, of course, when a little thing like Dunkirk arrived, it was no longer feasible, so they modified the aircraft, added extra fuel tanks. Eventually we had four fuel tanks in the Halifax. They kept adding, squeezing little tanks in all over the place and at the end of the time we had seven tanks on each side, and the management of those fuel tanks, to keep the centre of gravity where it belonged, and to ensure that we didn’t run out of fuel at an inappropriate moment, kept the flight engineer extremely busy. That was great, um, but that’s how the Halifax developed and that’s how the duties of the flight engineer developed, very much looking at fuel and obviously watching the engine instruments, looking for any unfortunate things. The Halifax had very early Merlins, Merlin engines, which was subject to internal, um, coolant leaks which, er, often resulted in having to switch the engine off. This again was a duty of the flight engineer to watch for this. When we changed over to the Lancasters only — I did forty-seven trips on Lanc— on Halifaxes — when we changed over to the Lancaster it was a whole different ball game. Now we had only, um, four main tanks, er, two in each wing and a little tank. Fuel management was simple and straightforward. The engines were Packard built Merlins which were not so — they had a, a revised design of the engine cylinder block which, um, reduced the chance of internal, um, coolital leaks so we didn’t have the trouble with engine overheating or having to shut the engine down. The Lancaster was a whole better ball game but, um, so much so that on the Lancaster really the, the flight engineer was not fully occupied, was partly acting as a cheap co-pilot. Remember it takes a lot of time and money to train a co-pilot. You can get a flight engineer for a much lower price. Put him in the right hand seat, he can act as co-pilot anyway and that’s really how the flight engineer’s role was developed.
AP: Right.
ES: But when you get on to the Lancasters, where there isn’t the problem for the engines that we had on the Halifax, the flight engineer was not as fully occupied, and Don Bennett, the chief of Pathfinders, Air Vice Marshall DCD Bennett, er, said that, um, he wanted two navigators on the nav table and the flight engineer he, he can soon learn to drop the bombs, and so, on Pathfinders, the flight engineer ended up very much as being both the flight engineer and co-pilot and bomb aimer, all wrapped into one, but there was duties spread through the flight. That made the flight engineer’s job much more interesting, dropping – aiming bombs particularly when you got onto flying with master bombers where you’re putting the markers down. It was a much more interesting job than it — as it had been originally on Lancasters.
AP: So can we talk a little bit about the actual Pathfinding Squadron and what they did?
ES: Pathfinders was developed, I was — I didn’t — I joined Pathfinders the month they started. I didn’t do the first Pathfinder raid but I did do the second Pathfinder raid and I stayed on Pathfinders until the end of the war and I saw the developments as they were — happened. As I say, one of the early ones was getting H2S radar so we had a decent radar picture. The Morton thing — the techniques developed, we ended up basically with, er, three basic types. There was visual mark— visual marking where everything was done by looking at the ground aided by the radar, of course, which was the, the straightforward one. Then, of course, we had the problem with cloud cover and they developed a radio which was led by radar, particularly when we got Oboe. When Oboe came in, so strange. Oboe markers can be put down from the UK very, very accurately, and, um, we — when outside radar range, we had to develop radar assisted bombing which was bombing through cloud, um, which worked to a point. But the worst — the trickiest one was when you had very high cloud, no chance of seeing the ground at all, and we — you, you see sky markers which were, um, flares which burst at a ver— very high altitude and gave a false aiming point. Obviously, if you’re aiming for something in the clouds, on top of the clouds, the bomb doesn’t know it and wants to go underneath and goes through the marker and carries on forward, so the sky markers, as they were called, were very tricky for the main force to use because they were aiming at something, and their bombs were going to hit something else. But, um, they were the three basic types. There were various variations on those three but basically, you’ve got the visual marking, you’ve got radar assisted marking and you had sky marking, they were the three basic types.
AP: Could you talk a little about H2S and Oboe, what they are?
ES: Oh, H2S was the — if you look at a picture of the Lanc, you’ll see a bowl, a bulge underneath that, um, concealed it. Made of material which is very — does not interfere with the radar, a fibreglass substance, and inside that is the scanner going round, painting a picture on the cathode ray tube of what it can see underneath. It’s a very crude form of television really, it shows the sea and the land as separate colours. It shows built up areas where you’ve got a lot of windows and things, windows and, um, roofs and the slo— sloping of the roofs deflects the radar, and that gives a different sort of picture. But that was the H2S which we — but we were very lucky. We were one of the first. The Pathfinders had H2S before it was in general use. The other one I mentioned was Oboe. Oboe is — was originally used for Mosquitos because it depends on line of sight from the UK and involves the development of the system that the Germans had used to bomb Coventry, where you had radio beams. It was the British development that was more accurate and involved the bombs actually being released automatically by the Oboe system. The, the pilot flew down one radio beam and when it crossed the other beam, er, the bombs were released automatically. It was extremely accurate, we’re talking sort of a hundred metres radius. It was very very good. But unfortunately, the range was limited by the line of sight but the Mosquito was — because it was able to fly higher than the Lancs ever could, could take the Oboe bombing further into the mainland of Germany, of France anyway. After D-Day, they put mobile Oboe stations on the continent and Oboe was able — the range was able to move forward. We did have Oboe in a Lanc on 582 Squadron, and I went on the first Lancaster Oboe raid with Group Captain Grant, who was squadron commander of 109 Squadron, the Oboe Squadron, and we did the first Oboe raid over France from the Lancaster. I must admit I did not enjoy it because having put Oboe into the thing, the pilot and the rad — Oboe operator had to have their own intercom system but nobody else could use it. So, about a few minutes from the target or something, six or seven minutes from target, the rest of the crew were off the — off intercom and, er, you just flew straight and level to the target, fighters coming in, AK-AK, so what? You couldn’t tell anybody [slight laugh]. That was the bit about Oboe I didn’t like on Lancasters but it worked. Fortunately, I did the first one to prove it that it could and after that I let somebody else have a go.
AP: Right, and this was just marking. You weren’t dropping any bombs at this stage?
ES: No, we were the dropping markers, the target indicators. The target indicators — I should have explained. The target indicators were a giant firework. You had a — the shell of a one thousand pound bomb. Inside it were little can—little canisters which were ignited when the bomb burst, and they put down coloured candles. They burst normally at about three thousand feet over the target so there was a cascade of coloured, er, candles falling from the bomb over, over the target area, hopefully over the target itself. This gave the main force an aiming point, something to aim at, a coloured cluster of fireworks. Well, if they were put down by Oboe, initially they were in one colour, um, to keep the marking going — because Oboe could only fly — operate one aircraft at a time over the target we were main — on Pathfinders came over with different colour markers and tried to aim at the original aiming point to keep the markers alive for the rest of the raid. Remember, some of the raids took twenty or thirty minutes. The Pathfinder’s job, when there was an Oboe raid, was to keep the initial marking going on the same aiming point.
AP: Was there a particular colours? Did they use particular colours?
ES: Oh yes. The primary — usually the main colour was red, the primary marker, so that the master bomber can say, ‘bomb the red Tis’. When we were backing up, we were usually backing up with green. Yellow was used for some things, because we also used markers on turning points on the raid on the way in. When you’re going into a target, you don’t go straight in because the Germans can see which way you’re aiming, you do a dog-leg or something. Well to mark a turning point, we used markers dropped by Pathfinders on the turning point. They were usually yellow or something, not, not reds, and that was basically the TIs, we called them TIs, target indicators, they were just giant fireworks but, er, they seemed to work and they were visible from a long way away.
AP: And while you’re doing this, you’ve got AK-AK and night fighters and all sorts of things.
ES: Well, they do, they do try and distract you a little [slight laugh]. The gunners are on, on the ball the whole time, swinging their turrets and watching for everything, providing the fighters are seen and are not too close before you see them. Then the thing you do is an escape manoeuvre. Corkscrew was the usual standard procedure. If you’ve got a fighter high on the port sight, you corkscrewed port down. If they were up on starboard side, you corkscrewed starboard down. If they were low down, you still did a corkscrew. The corkscrew is just — you are following the path of the corkscrew which keeps the gunner, the enemy, sharp, on a constant, er, deflection shot and, er, what you’re trying to do really is to spoil his deflection shot. The deflection is changing the whole time when you’re doing a corkscrew, hopefully that makes him miss. AK-AK, well it comes and goes. If it’s close, you can sometimes hear it rattling on the fuselage. The Halifax had — the propeller blade on the Halifax was made of a wooden material, it was laminated wood blades to the props, although the bases were all metal. We did get jumped by a fighter somewhere and, er, his cannon shells came through just a bit to the right and they actually hit the starboard inner prop, and they hit a blade and that blade broke. That of course, created a, a terrible out of balance. The thing was shaking like hell. No good looking at the instruments and I had an interesting exercise. Well, we’ve been hit. Obviously one engine was in trouble, we’re shaking like hell, my instrument panel was shaking like hell and there’s no good looking at the instruments, a waste of time. So I went up — I went to stand beside the pilot and I put the two propellers on the port side up and down to change the pitch, and it didn’t seem to affect the balance, so left those, and so I went to the right hand side and I changed the pitch on the two right hand engines, until I found the one that was changing the frequency of the vibrations, then I knew which button to press to stop the engine. But that’s the sort of thing you had to do, sort of think, think on the hoof, what do you do next?
AP: Yes. Did you lose any engines at all?
ES: On Halifaxes, you lost engines regularly. I think I almost came back on three engines more often than I came back on four on Halifaxes. I think on Lancs, I only remember losing an engine on a Lanc once, but the Halifax yes, because of this internal coolant leak, we did lose a lot of engines. Sometimes you didn’t really know whether it was a serious leak or not, um, because the added problem on the Halifax was the oil cooler was very large in relation to the amount of oil. It’s a circular oil cooler, if you can imagine like a drum, and the oil came in on the top on one side and the deflection of the oil was supposed to go round the bottom and out on the other side, which it did normally, unless it got, got a little bit cold and then the oil would go in on one side and the, the oil in the middle had got so cold it wasn’t flowing properly, so the oil went in on one side, on the outside and went round on the outside and came out again on the — still at the same temperature it went in at. That resulted in a thing called the oil cooler was coring, it was getting a hard core in the middle. If you did get that, and you did occasionally, if you recognised it, you shut that engine down a moment, which gave the time for the oil temperature in the oil coolant to stabilise and then you could — hope there wasn’t an oil leak, start the engine up again and if it ran OK, fine, you’re that done and happy again. Little things like that. The Halifax was the trickier aeroplane from the engineer’s point of view. You had to be on the ball. You asked about how many raids I did, well I did forty-seven on Halifaxes and then I — that is because on Pathfinders, er, you didn’t do a single raid you did a double raid of forty-five. Well, being me of course, I did a couple extra. But, um, my whole career really, basically, goes back to my second trip. The first trip I did was in a Halifax to Essen, which was a good starting point, you know, they don’t come much tougher and, um, that was OK, except I came back with the view that, ‘How the hell did he know we’d bombed Essen’. But that was because early on in the war, finding a target was a hell of a hit and miss affair. But anyway, for the next trip I was put on a raid to go to Nuremberg in a Halifax, which at that time, we’d only got five tanks, and I got together with the navigator and said, ‘How many air miles are we doing?’ Because when you start thinking about fuel consumption in an aeroplane, well the fuel consumption depends on which way you’re flying. If you’re going downwind, you go a lot further than you go upwind, so work on air miles and that’s the number of miles you go through the air. Anyway, the navigator gave me the air miles and I looked at the fuel load, and said, ‘It ain’t enough’. And so, being a cheeky eighteen or nineteen year old flight engineer, freshly promoted from corporal to sergeant, I went up to the squadron commander, the squadron leader in those days, and said, ‘Sir, I don’t think we’ve got enough fuel for this trip’. To which he replied, ‘Nonsense lad. Group know what they’re doing’. Silly lad, he’d believed anything. But anyway, we were a little short on fuel. In fact, we crashed nearer to base than anybody else in the squadron. We actually, er, ran out of fuel about three or four miles short of the airfield and came down in an untidy heap. I had given an ETA, estimated time of arrival, of no fuel and the navigator had given an ETA of when we should be at base. Well, the navigator had us at base about five, four or five minutes before I’d said we’d run out of fuel. It was a little matter of errors. I was right, we did run out of fuel when I said, but we hadn’t reached base. It was just down there ahead of us and, um, when they — I said we were going to run out two engines on one side stopped, one side had stopped developing any power, so I went down the back and put on a cross feed pipe, which put the empty tank that was running the two port engines to supply fuel to the two starboard engines, so that we had four engines running for a moment, and skipper in his wisdom said, ‘It’s time to get out of here’, and gave the order to bail out. It seemed sensible at the time, well it was sensible except the fact we were carrying a co-pilot, who was a captain from Whitleys, the other squadron on the station, and the Whitley is very poorly heated, so if you fly in a Whitley, you put all the full Irvin suit on, that, er, sheepskin lined leather suit, jacket and [emphasis] trousers, and he was a lad, a tall boy, quite a well-built lad, and so that the first thing that happened when the skipper said, ‘Bail out’, navigator lifts his table up, pulls the hatch out from underneath him, puts his parachute on and jumps, he’s gone. The wireless operator then thought that, underneath the skipper’s seat on the port side, and he was getting ready to go and this great big teddy bear of a man with this Irvin suit on, oh he didn’t jump out, probably couldn’t jump with all that clobber on and, er, he sat on the back of the hatch and put his feet out. That was alright. And then he tried to put his head out but it’s a very small hatch. From my position in the co-pilot’s seat, I could see his backside sat up in the air, but he wasn’t going anywhere. So I wondered, ‘What the hell we’d do?’ Len thought down there, he looked and he, he summed it up quite quickly. He pointed me to come back a bit, so I had to move back a bit, so that Len could get up on the top step and then they jumped, he jumped, and two bodies disappeared out of the escape hatch. Well because of the Battle of Britain, the pilots in Bomber Command sacrificed their pilot ‘chutes to put fighter command in the Battle of Britain, and the pilots in Bomber Command flew with an observer type ‘chute which is a harness with a separate pack for the harness, for the parachute itself, and there was stowage under the seat I was standing on, which contained the pilot’s parachute. The flight engineers job, when the two have gone out or three have gone out the nose, go under there and get the pilot’s parachute. Great, but I go — went down there. Oh dear, the elastic to hold the pilot’s parachute were not fastened and the pilot’s parachute must have been sucked out with the [unclear], it wasn’t there. So I go back up to the step, I’d got my parachute on by this time myself, I get back at the step and talked to the skipper, ‘Sorry your parachute’s gone’. By that time, all four engines stopped and, um, so we obviously were going down, so I jettisoned the escape hatch over the pilot’s head so that he could get out and then I went back amidships where there was a— another hatch in the roof with a ladder up to it for — and I, in fact, opened the hatch and was pushing it back when we hit the ground the first time, and I was flung forward against this, er, ladder and I found myself cuddling a ladder. We were in the air temporarily until we came down for a second time and, um, we slithered along a bit and came to rest. So, I’d got the ladder handy and gripping it, up onto the roof and there’s the skipper coming out. I was thinking we were the only two left. The rear gunner, he’s gone down the back, all he had to do was turn his turret round and jump. Oh no. Our rear gunner suffered from night blindness, which is not a great help for a rear gunner. He couldn’t find his harness, his parachute, anyway so he was still inside the fuselage looking for his parachute when we hit the ground. We didn’t know this of course so we got out. Skipper and I were on the wing and about to jump off and wondering about all these cows running and doing a war dance round the aeroplane, and a voice from behind us said, ‘Wait for me’. It’s our rear gunner. He never did find his parachute and so the three of us ran to the edge of, edge of this field, dodging all these terribly upset, terribly upset cows and got to the edge of the airfield. Got a little fire on each engine, [unclear] and stuff, nothing serious, so we stood there and then, um, as I said, we were very close to the airfield and, er, two ambulances turned up and then the CO turned up. He had a quick word with the skipper, he kept well away from me, and, er, I think after that he got the idea that maybe flight engineers do understand a bit about aeroplanes [slight laugh]. I’ll only say this, many years later, the squadron leader was our wing commander and CO of 35 Squadron, leader of the Pathfinders. I’m the flight engineer then, a flight lieutenant, and when the CO wanted to fly, [unclear] I was his flight engineer [laugh]. But, um, anyway we’d landed, we were in an untidy heap. Of course, this is — everything’s organised in the RAF. So, there was a crash, OK, two ambulances turned up so of course we were, we were not really within walking distance to the base, and so I go to one of these ambulances and, ‘Can you give us a lift back to the airfield’, ‘No, I’m bodies only’. Oh, go to the other one. ‘You’re not injured, are you?’ ‘No, I’m not injured’. Eventually they sent out a guard party to look after the wreck overnight and, um, one of those they got the driver out and he ran us back to the airfield. Interesting things, um, the three blokes that bailed out, two of them ended up on the same train. One had landed next to the railway, stopped a goods train, and sort of the driver said, ‘What do you want?’ ‘I bailed out’. ‘Oh, get in the guard’s van. We’re going into York’, sort of thing. He goes a little bit further on. There’s another bloke waiting with a parachute, waving, so he stopped and said, ‘Your mate’s in the guard’s van’ [laugh]. The other fella hadn’t got a lift with the train got — bloke with a car, and got back. Anyway, they all got back safely, the three got back safely. Anyway, that was my first endeavour. Rather gave me a reputation because the result of that, I think was that, um, when the Halifaxes were moved — we were on the first Halifax Squadron— when another squadron was going to get Halifaxes, they had to be trained on how to fly Halifaxes. The usual way was to take an experienced crew from one squadron, move them to a squadron with one Halifax and they were, er, trained with the new squadron. Well, good idea. So, they got — the squadron, 102 Squadron, was going to get Halifaxes, and so they sent a qualified crew, except I think, the CO wanted to see the back of me, I’d only done four trips. I was not an experienced — but I was the flight engineer on the experienced crew that went to 102 Squadron. There I was, I had done four trips, I was on this new squadron, teaching people how to — all about the Halifaxes, and that’s how my whole car— career started. Because I was there and I was the only experienced flight engineer, when the squa— new squadron commander was going to do his first trip on a Halifax, he wanted an experienced flight engineer so I went with him, didn’t I? And, er, when each flight commander wanted their first trip on the Halifax, who was the flight engineer? So — and then I went down, down the list until I probably flew with each pilot on their first trip and, er, I was an instructor, not what I intended to be. But anyway, I ended up with a total of fifteen trips and Pathfinders started. Well, the Canadian crew, they wanted go down — the Canadian, er, pilot and navigator wanted to go to Pathfinders, they wanted to volunteer for Pathfinders. Their flight engineer didn’t and the silly bloke had talked me into joining him so that’s how I left 102 Squadron and went to thir — back to 35, on Pathfinders this time, and that’s how I got into Pathfinders. As I men— said I’d done fifteen ops on 102 and 35 when this Canadian talked me into going to Pathfinders, so I arrived at Pathfinders with just fifteen trips under my belt. I stayed on the Halifaxes, on Pathfinders, until I finished my double — what is called a double mission. A mission is norm— for most of the main force was thirty trips and then Pathfinders, when you volunteered to join Pathfinders, you vol— volunteered to do a double mission. A double mission was forty-five trips. In fact, I did forty-seven on Halifaxes, and then I was screened and I went to the Navigation Training Unit of Pathfinders, and there’d been a bit of problem on 7 Squadron. They’d lost their CO and a couple of flight commanders and all sorts of the top brass. They came to the Navigation Training Unit and wanted a, er, bit of strength back in 7 Squadron and I was asked to volunteer. I’d been screened for a couple of weeks by then so I went back to, um, onto Pathfinders with 7 Squadron. The only thing was when I got to 7 Squa— well I knew before I went they were flying Lancasters. Well I’d flown in a Lancaster once and I’d read the book, so I joined 7 squadron with no formal training at all, having read the pilot’s notes, and I stayed on 7’s, um, Pathfinders, eventually did another sixty-one ops on, um, Lancasters, but giving me a grand total of a hundred and eight, which is ridiculous. Nobody should do that [slight laugh]. I don’t know how I did it. I know I changed — and I mentioned on 102, I flew with every Tom, Dick, and every flight commander’s CO. That gave me a number of different skippers. I then went back, went onto Pathfinders and I did, I think I did another thirty with this, er, Canadian crew I went with, and I did some odd ones and then the trouble started. They’d discovered 102 Squadron had put me up for a commission, because they didn’t commission flight engineers early on, because when I saw Wally Lashbrook, who was the instructor, there called me in and said, ‘What do you think about taking a flight — a commission’. I said, ‘Don’t be silly. They don’t commission flight engineers’. He said, ‘Well maybe they’re going to. Would you — can I put you forward?’ And I said, ‘Yeah, why not?’ Well, actually, I did ask him what he thought because I’m a Halton brat. I went to Halton when I was fifteen and the flight commander was Wally Lashbrook and he was a Halton brat, so on his advice I said, ‘Yes OK. Put me in for the commission’, which led to the situation. I was, I was down on Pathfinders, they didn’t know anything about commissioned flight engineers and I was called in to the adjutant, ‘What did you do for an interview at the Air Ministry. What’s that for?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. Wait and see’. Anyway, I was on ops one night, er, and I had — was due to go to Air Ministry the next morning. OK, so down at, um, Gravely, which is very close to London. It’s in Huntingdonshire and the railway station not far away. So anyway, I did the trip, came back, went in in the uniform, changed, um, into the barracks, changed into my best blue, had a wash and a shave, and caught the train to London. Which meant I then had to go in for this interview with Air Ministry. OK. Well, I’d been up all night remember, and they called me in and, um, one of those who, who looked at me said, ‘Where were you last night lad?’ So I gave him the name of the target. After that, the interview was awkward [laugh]. Anyway, so I got through that alright and I went back to the Squadron. Seven weeks later I’m — the adjutant called me in and he said, ‘I don’t know how this happened. You’ve been commissioned’. I said, ‘Yeah, I thought I might’. He said, ‘You’d better go and get a uniform’. So I went up to London to, er, one of the tailors, bought myself a uniform, go back. I’m a pilot officer now, yes, and they called me in again. ‘We’ve only got [unclear] for a flight lieutenant? You’ll have to be a flight lieutenant’, so I’d been a pilot officer for several days. Back to London, get some more stripes on my uniform [laugh], so I was rather quickly a flight lieutenant and then got a job and there was obviously a flight engineer needed, which again meant flying with all sorts of odd bods, which again meant I went over, way over the odds. I flew with people. I, I flew with Hank Malcom, the Canadian I mentioned, I did thirty trips with him. That was alright. Later on, I flew with a Welshman called Davies, came from Swansea, I did thirty trips with him. As I say I did all these thirty trips.
AP: What about Cheshire. Do you remember Cheshire much?
ES: Cheshire was my first flight commander on 35 Squadron. Didn’t like him very much, never did, but, um —
AP: And Lancasters, any particular missions that you remember, operations that stick out?
ES: Very difficult. I can’t remember where it was, one time over the Ruhr Valley. I didn’t enjoy life. We came — I think we’d been to Berlin, and on the way back we got a bit off course, er, as far as I can remember, we’d lost an engine or something over Berlin, probably this oil stuff, and I started it again but we got the — radio, distant reading radio compass was not, distant reading compass, sorry, er, was not reading very accurately and keeping on course had been difficult, and instead of coming, er, from Berlin, just round the corner of the Happy Valley, er, probably between Essen and Aachen, and cutting through that way, got a bit off course and found myself over the Ruhr. There wasn’t a raid on the Ruhr, just us odd bods coming back from Berlin, and they did rather catch us in their searchlights and flak for quite a long time. That was the one of the worst occasions with the enemy opposition, where it wasn’t so much that we were being shot at and were being illuminated by searchlights, we couldn’t get out of the damn thing for about twenty minutes, dashing around. I thought we’re never going to get out of that but anyway, er, Hank put the aeroplane in all sorts of manoeuvres and we got out of it. But that was one of the worst occasions, not when we were caught over the target but caught got off course on the way back. That always the danger, you expected to be shot at over the target but you tried to avoid it enroute there and back. We hadn’t on that occasion. It was one of the worst trips anyway as far as —
AP: Any raids in Northern France and Holland? Any raids there in Lancasters?
ES: Just before D-Day, we were doing all sorts of silly things. I had, I had the dis— disputed honour of actually acting as master bomber on one of the raids on a little, er, airfield in northern France. What’s the name of it? I can’t think of the name at the moment. I was flying with a Welshman on this occasion and they wanted — round about D-Day, there were all sorts of little raids, but they needed a master bomber on a very small airfield and they suddenly decided that this skipper’s Welsh accent would not do. So I was then, er, told to do the broadcast over the target, drop the bombs and sort of encourage people to come down and bomb the target, tell them what to bomb. The cloud, cloud base was low. We got down low, we could see the target, I got my markers on the target. Could I persuade anybody else to come down and do it? No, they were all bombing from way up, not doing very well anyway. We lost two aircrafts on that f — but I was actually — I think it was the only occasion when a flight engineer held the microphone and acted as master bomber and told them where to bomb. [unclear] have a change.
AP: All those operations that you flew, did — I’m guessing you must have seen other aircraft being shot down?
ES: Oh yeah of course we did.
AP: I mean, one of the things I’m trying to describe to people is what it was like when you were flying in all that stuff, what you saw, what people said, what they felt.
ES: It was very difficult early on, um, you got the odd one. Usually, they caught fire and went down in flames and some parachutes would come out. You hoped more did. Later on, when the — towards the end, the Germans had developed this — what did they call them? Musical chairs, which was the night fighters were equipped, er, with upward firing guns in the top of the fuselage at an angle and they did not use tracer. The idea was to fly on radar low down where you couldn’t be — where there was less chance of being seen by the top gunner or the rear gunner, come up below the aircraft, and when you were in the right position, climb fairly steeply and let the, er, cannons into the belly of the bomber. Very good idea. We’d had it years ago. When I was at Boscombe Down many years ago, we had a Boston which had been modified with, um, like bomb doors on the top of the fuselage and the bomb doors opened and there was four, er, machine guns pointing upwards, just like musical chairs, only there were only threes and we never developed it, but the Germans did. That was, that was one of the games the RAF definitely lost. My advantage, having before I started learning to fly as a flight engineer, I’d been an ordinary fitter who wanted to be a pilot and fortunately, in my postings, I was posted to Boscombe Down, which meant I saw far more different aircraft than most people when they came out of Halton and, um, I worked on many, including the first bloody, er, Stirling bomber, four engine. They had a position for a flight engineer. ‘It’s your aeroplane. You fly’. That’s how I learnt, you know, to start flying. I didn’t want to be a flight engineer, I’d been trying to be a pilot, but I was only an AC1, so I saw the flight commander and he said, ‘You’ve got to be an OAC to go on the pilot’s course’. So I did the trade test and I was a — I passed it. I was an OAC. Good. Go back to the flight commander, ‘I want a pilot’s course’. ‘You have to be an OAC for six months then you can come and see me again’. Five months later, ‘Oh hello Corporal Stocker. [unclear] You can’t be a pilot now. You’re too valuable. You’re a corporal fitter’. OK. I’m working in the hangar one day and the flight clerk comes out, and he’s got an AMO, he says, ‘The flight commander thinks you might like to look at this’. It was the first AMO asking — Air Ministry Order — asking for volunteers to fly as flight engineer. If you are a corporal or a sergeant in, in the group 1 trade, you can volunteer to be a flight engineer. I think the flight commander had a clue that I might be interested in that and so I went back with the flight clerk [laugh] and volunteered [laugh], and a few weeks later, I was on an air gunner’s course and that’s how I became a flight engineer. I don’t know how I did it. But anyway, the basic thing is I did chance my arm rather more than most and got away with it with a hundred and eight raids. How the hell I did it, I don’t know, but I’m lucky. But that’s how it happened. The first flight commander was Flight Lieutenant Cheshire. Oh dear. What can I add to that?
AP: Let’s, let’s jump to that, the island of Walcheren. Can you talk about that raid?
ES: Oh, one of the most interesting raids. The war was nearly over, there weren’t — there wasn’t a great deal of opposition anywhere and then they wanted to sink the Walcheren. The island of Walcheren was at the mouth of the Scheldt and was really guarding the entrance to northern Germany. They’d tried to get across — there’d been an unsuccessful attempt by the Army to do a landing on the, er, south coast of Walcheren Island. They lost a lot of soldiers and then they decided they might be better to — for a frontal attack, but they need to get the Hun out of the way, er, so we were — I was bomb aimer with the master bomber. The master bomber was Group Captain Peter Cribb. He was on thirty. He took over from Cheshire as flight commander of the 35 Squadron way back in 4 Group. Anyway he was the master bomber. I was his bomb aimer and we went over to Walcheren Island. Oboe had put down a marker on the sea shore and we put another marker beside it, and then we were getting, I think it was sixty aircraft every twenty minutes. I’m not sure about that number, it might have been less, and we directed them on to this markers right on the sea shore and we managed to breach the dy— the dyke and the sea water went through and started flooding the island of Walcheren. There was an AK-AK battery on the other side of the town from where we were, er, which fired the odd shots, but we had some thousand pound bombs, a couple, four or something, so between two raids, I did a sharp turn to port and I dropped my fourth one thousand pounder in the vicinity of the AK-AK battery, and had the good fortune to watch the brave gu— German gunners get on their bikes and, er, ride down the island in the middle of the raid. They left us to it. So really it wasn’t — there was no real opposition there. Anyway, we carried on with our — all these little raids and gradually made the, er, dyke leak and the island was flooding behind. The last raid, the last, um, batch of bombers we were getting were from 617 Squadron, they had their tallboys they [unclear] at that time. Well, we looked at the dyke and the sun and the sea was going in, and the skipper called them up and said, ‘Go home. We don’t need you’, which was for Pathfinders was a not idea because Pathfinders and 5 Group, which was Cochrane’s private air force, were not really the best of friends. Cochrane didn’t approve of Pathfinders and Don Bennett, who ran Pathfinders, didn’t really approve of Cochrane, because Cochrane had never actually been on a raid. Our AOC, Air Vice Marshall Donald Bennett, had [emphasis] been on a raid. He’d been shot down in Norway. He knew, he knew the score. That made the difference. He had a different outlook. But, um, actually yes, it was an interesting raid and when I was working in Holland after the war we did, I did go back there with my wife and we went and had a look and, yes, there’s a nice little puddle where we’d broken the dyke and there was a bit of sand round the edge and somebody had opened a café there, so we got somebody in business anyway. They set up a committee to evaluate the value of Bomber — what was happening with Bomber Command and they came to this awful conclusion that how a few bombs arrived within ten miles of the target. There was obviously a fault there and I having — this was the impression I had from my very first raid on Essen, that the accuracy with which they found the target was pathetic. And as a result of that, there was a great deal of conversation at the top end of Bomber Command and the Air Ministry what to do about it. Butcher Harris was not keen on the idea of a, an elite, um, a special force, special squadrons who were experienced and could lead the way. He said it was a sort of elitism. We don’t want elitism in Bomber Command. Certain people could see that this was the way to go, er, but Harris was overruled by C and C I suppose, I don’t know which one it was, and was told to look at the idea of an elite force, er, they eventually came up with the conclusion they’ll have with a special force. Initially they took — each group was asked to provide one squadron for this special force, so we ended up initially with Pathfinders with a hodgepodge of squadrons. There was one Whitley Squad–, no not one Whitley, one Wellington Squadron, there was a Stirling Squadron number 7, er, there was a Halifax Squadron 35, and they were put together as a, as an elite force. They had to find a CO. Don Bennett was in with — the main, main problem was navigation. Don Bennett was a well-known navigator; he was the only officer in the Air Force with a first class navigator certificate to start with. He’d already proved himself as navigator by flying the Maia Composite from Scotland to South Africa by himself. Just — all he had on board was a wireless operator. He was an experienced navigator. He’d started in — had already early on in the war started the transatlantic ferry. They used to fly — put Hudson bombers from America into boxes and put them on a ship to come Am— to England. Don Bennett was recruited really by BOAC to do, er, to do something about it and he started the transatlantic ferry by leading the first formation of bomb— Hudson bombers across the Atlantic to England and started the transatlantic ferry. He was then a civilian in the BOAC. He had been in the Air Force before the war so he started the Pathfinders and he put it together, because he had — he was the only AOC that they could find who had experience of flying bombers, who was an experienced navigator, who proved that he could navigate and, um, that’s how Pathfinders started, but it made a hell of a difference. We started first of all, trying to mark — how to mark the targets. All sorts of things were tried but Pathfinders gradually developed very, very rapidly, um, initially as this bunch of squadrons, then it became a Group and, er, ended up as quite a big air force of its own. At the end of the war, Pathfinders’ Group, number 8 Group, had over a hundred aircraft, it had a hundred Mosquitos for the late night strikers. It was an enormous empire but, um, it did the job. We found ways of finding the target, we found ways of marking the target, and we ended up in a situation where we could, if the weather — in reasonable conditions, we could hit any target anywhere. The development of the master bomber, which started with the Peenemünde raid, was a big step forward. It gave us some control, where the people, er, the other people who may be on their first or second trip and never seen enemy fire before a chance to be guided, and given some encouragement, what was going on, what to do. That was a big step forward. It was interesting to live thorough it all from, er, hit and miss and, er, precision bombing helped it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ted Stocker. One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Panton
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-26
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AStockerE150726, PStockerEE1601
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:02:00 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Ted flew 108 operations (47 on Halifaxes and 61 on Lancasters), flying as part of 35 Squadron Pathfinders. He was awarded a Distinguished Service Order.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
102 Squadron
35 Squadron
7 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
bale out
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
flight engineer
fuelling
H2S
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
Master Bomber
Oboe
Pathfinders
RAF Halton
target indicator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/588/8857/AHubermanA160329.1.mp3
b5727226db7314e09558768a459abf06
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Huberman, Alfred
A Huberman
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Huberman, A
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Alfred Huberman DFC (1923 - 2023, 1671008 Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He completed 31 operations as a rear gunner on 576 Squadron. He subsequently completed other operations on a second tour with the Pathfinder force at the end of the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alfred Huberman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-29
2016-04-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS: Ok. So I think we’re ready to start. If I could put the recording machine there and that on there. So this is Andrew Sadler interviewing Alfred Huberman at his home in Hampstead in London on the 29th of March 2016 for the Bomber Command Digital Archive. Thank you, Alfred, for allowing me to come to your home to interview you.
AH: It’s a pleasure.
AS: Can I start by asking you how you came to be in the Royal Air Force?
AH: Well, my father was in the army in the First World War and he didn’t want me to go in the army and we had friends who felt the same way. They, they could only think of the war as trench warfare and bayonet fighting and he thought, he didn’t mind me at all going in the RAF actually. He was quite pleased ‘cause they could only think of the army you know as trench warfare and bayonets you know. That’s how the old timers used to talk. So I volunteered to go in the air force.
AS: And how were you selected?
AH: We went before a committee. People who, you know, examined you and why you wanted to go in and explain your reasons why you wanted to volunteer for Bomber Command.
AS: Before this time can you tell me about your background? Where did you live?
AH: Lived in Forest Gate. You know that’s not far from Mile End, you know. A bit further down near Upton Park and Forest Gate and I wanted to get in the war and get into action and I thought [unclear] because my mum and dad said I won’t go in the army. I wanted to go in the air force anyway and I volunteered in the air force when I was eighteen.
AS: So you started when you were eighteen.
AH: I went in. Yes.
AS: Can you tell me about your training?
AH: Yes. I first started training as a wireless operator air gunner. Started off in Blackpool and towards the end of ‘41 and I really, coming towards the end of it I really didn’t like being a wireless operator and I thought I’m not going to go through this, I don’t like this. I deliberately failed and re-mustered to go straight AG which they did, you know. The sent me for training as an air gunner.
[pause]
AH: Training was really tough. All kinds of things. You had to go on route marches. They made the training deliberately tough because it was tough being an air gunner and you’ve got to be tough mentally and physically to take it. That’s what the trainers all thought and the air force knew that and the quick, it quickly got sorted out, the good and the bad. You know, you could tell the guys who couldn’t make it. You know you felt a great deal of pride in being able to pass through ‘cause it was tough, physically and mentally, the training.
AS: Were there many who didn’t pass?
AH: Yeah. Yes.
AS: Where did you do the -?
AH: I’ll tell you this one thing that does seem funny. We thought it was funny at the time but quite a few rejected were those chaps who came from the Highlands of Scotland. No one could understand what they were talking, the way they spoke. So they couldn’t be correct, you know to serve on a plane. You couldn’t hear what they were talking about and there was quite a number of them who got knocked out for that but the course was so tough the weak ones were soon sorted out who weren’t, weren’t the right type for it.
AS: Where did you do your gunner training?
AH: In Bridgnorth. But you know being keen on being an air gunner I enjoyed it. The training was tough but it was, it was good.
AS: What did you do as part of your training?
AH: Well it does seem strange. We did quite a few fifteen mile, fifteen mile route marches which sorts out the weak from the strong and the weak ones did drop out and couldn’t take the fifteen miles. It got sorted out because it was a tough procedure to get through it because the corporals in charge were real tough guys and made you go, took you through the hard parts of the woods on the training.
AS: Did you join the RAF straight from school or did you work in between?
AH: I wasn’t, yeah I worked in between. I went to art school for a while in the fashion industry and I was also training at St Martin’s Art School. That’s why all these paintings that you see around are all mine.
AS: Yeah.
AH: And how can I follow on that one? I was keen to get in, to go on operations. The war was on and I wanted to get in the action.
AS: Presumably you were in East London and the bombing had started of East London.
AH: Yeah. I was in there during the bombing. We got bombed out. That’s what made me, oh that’s, I’m glad you reminded me. That’s, that’s what made me really keen to get at the Germans. We got bombed out in 1940. We went up, I had to go out and live with relatives in Leeds quite a number of months as well.
AS: How long did your training last?
AH: Well total training as air gunner? [pause] You don’t include being at OTU with that. Just solely training as air gunner. Oh God I think it was, I can’t think correctly but I think it was about six months.
AS: And then where were you posted?
AH: We passed out at the number 1 Air Gunnery Training School was at Bridgend. I passed out from there. You know, we had to do flying training there, you know, as an air gunner, you had, we trained on Ansons at gunnery school. Flying at Bridgend and it was, the training was really tough but it was nevertheless enjoyable. The comradeship was great. It all started from there. Air crew comradeship. Flying in Ansons. Shooting at drogues. We had to do, there was plenty of physical training as well. They made sure you were fit. A lot of physical training. Tough physical training every day. They kept us at it in air gunnery training. Training, you know. ‘Cause you really had to be fit. Their attitude was absolutely correct. One hundred percent correct. You had to be fit because you know, they knew you were going on trips from six to ten, eleven hours and at the time it was strenuous and you had to be really strong and fit especially sitting in the back where it was cold.
AS: What about after you’d finished your training?
AH: We then went to Operational Training Unit and to get sorted out into crews and you mixed and you talked with pilots, navigators and everything and in the mess all mixing together and you got sorted out. The first crew we got sorted out with we didn’t get on with one another. Broken up and then got sorted, got re-sorted again with another, six other chaps who found one another, talking together and we crewed up and they were a great crew, my crew were, every one of them. Super guy, the pilot especially. He was, he was a marvellous pilot and all the rest of my crew were. Each one of us. We were like brothers and he kept, the pilot, Ron Ireland he really kept his eye on us that we didn’t drink too much and one outstanding thing when we went to our first operational station, we went into the mess and of course you meet other guys that you knew during training and they came up to you and the first words they said to you, ‘Alf, whatever you do I’ll give you one bit of advice. Don’t worry or look about losses. Dismiss it from your mind because if you start worrying about losses,’ he said, ‘You can’t do a good job.’ And that was outstanding that. How they all told, told the newcomers at that point. I think it’s worth mentioning that.
AS: Where were you stationed to start with?
AH: What, operationally? Elsham Wold. Near Scunthorpe. And it was a great station. The comradeship was fantastic. The CO.
[pause]
AH: I’ll show you this.
[pause]
AH: It was Wing Commander Gareth Clayton. Later Air Marshall Sir Gareth Clayton and he unveiled a painting I gave to the, presented to the, and accepted by the Royal Air Force Museum. This is after the war.
AS: Oh gosh.
AH: The CO was a marvellous chap. He was very authoritative.
AS: And how many sorties did you do from there?
AH: Thirty one.
AS: Can you tell me, tell me about, about how you were organised and how the, each mission happened?
AH: The tour, you had to do thirty operations and then you were stood down for at least six months. After you’d done thirty operations you were automatically stood down. And the comradeship between the rest of the crew was really great. It had to be. The pilot was a strict disciplinarian. He’d make sure that we all behaved. Didn’t get drunk at nights, kept fit, which we did. And we all kept together and we became close, close friends. You know, every one of us knew each one’s life depended on the other one. Every one played their part. The pilot, the navigator, the bomb aimer, the flight engineer and the two air gunners, and the WOp/AG.
AS: Can you tell me about a typical mission? What it was like?
AH: Well you did have some kind of fear of certain operations because some operations were more dangerous than, than others and you had this fear and trepidation. Particularly of the Ruhr or Happy Valley as we used to call it and which was really tough because it was so heavily defended, the Ruhr. You couldn’t help flying over other targets, other cities which was heavily defended. Every, every one in the Ruhr, every city in the Ruhr was heavily heavily defended and they were all close to one another and when you went to bomb you passed over other cities and you were fired upon from beginning to end. I remember one operation dramatically we were going to bomb Gelsenkirchen which is just outside Stettin, next door, and very very heavily defended and I looked out the turret and I saw another aircraft was gliding slowly towards us and I said to the pilot, ‘Quick, dive. There’s another plane gliding towards us to crash. Dive quickly,’ and he dived and the aircraft passed over us and the pilot said, ‘Alf,’ he said, ‘You’ve saved the lives of all the crew.’ He said, ‘If there’d have been a hole in the hatch and I put, and I could have put my arm through,’ he said, ‘I would have touched the other plane that we just missed.’ Because a lot of aircraft were lost through crashes at night you know. Not always, not easy to see. Very dark and cloudy. Many losses were caused by other planes, our planes crashing into our, into our own planes.
AS: What, what was it like being a gunner? I understood it was one of the most dangerous positions.
AH: Well it was a dangerous position but one felt really proud of being a gunner and wherever you went in England you were admired as you walked along the street. If you went into a pub, I don’t think I ever bought a pint of beer for myself. I walked into a pub, someone came running up to me and said, ‘Hey, let me buy you a drink,’ and this was like that with all air gunners. Treated like this when they went, even walking down the road. Being nodded at and smiled at. Admired. Yeah, you felt very proud to be an air gunner. We did have the toughest job because it was cold. I mean one of my worst experiences, I was going to tell you at the beginning was we were at OTU and they started worrying now about German fighters coming over England and shooting down planes at night who were in training. So this particular night they gave us a plan to go up past, straight past the Orkneys and up towards Iceland to keep away from German night fighters and what happened this particular day they said, ‘It’s going to be very very cold there and we have to take out, for the first time, the back panel of glass on the rear turret to give the air gunner clearer vision,’ on the Wellingtons and the Lancasters that were coming along but the electronic suit had just been invented which was God’s gift to air gunners. It was a fantastic thing. You had an electric suit. Wires right into the gloves on your hand and it really kept you warm but at this moment there wasn’t enough electric suits to go around. They gave it to the operational ones first. They didn’t have enough to go in Training Command yet. They took out the panel of the rear turret and they told us that night, ‘Double your socks, pullovers, get yourself really warm because it’s going to be cold.’ So I did that and as we were going over past the Orkneys it’s now getting really cold and I’m starting to freeze and one thing we were taught as air gunners if you get too cold and you start freezing you must tell the pilot and I was becoming so cold the water on my eyes was turning to ice. I said, ‘Skipper,’ I said, ‘I’m sorry to report this,’ I said, ‘But I must tell you I’m freezing to death.’ I said, ‘The water on my eyes, I’m losing my sight, it’s turning to ice and I’m just freezing.’ So the pilot said, ‘Oh my God,’ he said, ‘It’s a hundred and six degrees below zero.’ And then the navigator pipes up, he said, ‘Oh my God,’ he said, ‘I’ve made a mistake. We’ve gone fifty miles north. We’re over Iceland.’ And just to try a sidetrack at that moment I saw the aurora borealis. We all did. The pilot said, ‘Right,’ he said, ‘I’m going to turn round, go back and dive.’ He turned the aircraft out, around and dived thirteen thousand feet and the force of inertia went right through my body. It brought me round and in no time I would have been frozen to death. And when we got back to base we all reported in. Three other crews had gone on the same trip as us and three air gunners had had their big toe operated, amputated. It was so cold that night. So they didn’t send anyone up that north again. So far up. That was one of my worst experiences. I was going to tell you beforehand, you know, on operations. Before I went on operation I nearly lost my life.
AS: What planes did you fly in?
AH: That was a Wellington. Trained in a Wellington initially and then we changed over to Lancasters and then I did all my operations on Lancasters then.
AS: You didn’t do any operations in Wellingtons.
AH: No. They were being phased out. You know, the Halifax and the, the Halifax and the Lancaster took over.
AS: Did you fly in any Halifaxes?
HB: Just once. I can’t remember where or when but just once but much preferred the Lancaster. The Lancaster was definitely a more superior plane.
AS: In what way?
AH: Technically it was faster, it was more manoeuvrable than the Halifax. I did go in a Halifax, did a trip, did training on it and didn’t like it that much. Felt much more comfortable in a Lancaster. Everyone on the crew did. Well, it was proved anyway you know. The Lancaster was the [emphasis] bomber. Successful.
AS: So you did, did you do all of your missions from Scunthorpe?
AH: On my first tour yes.
AS: Oh.
AH: Yes. We got our our toughest mission was Mimoyecques. Have you heard of that? Well this was the site on the English, on the French coast and the English Channel. The CA, we weren’t given technically what the, they said it’s a very very important German base in France. They got, they wouldn’t describe exactly what it was there. He said ‘but it’s very secretive’. He spoke in words going around the operation. Being indiscreet about it and we had to go in at ten thousand feet which is pretty low you know. We’d never gone in before at that height to bomb. He said ‘because the bombing’, he said, ‘must be very very accurate’ and as it turned out it was one of the most successful, important raids of the whole war. It was the site of, it was going to be the secret site of the V3 which was never used because we destroyed it and forty five were lost on that night and Leonard Cheshire was the master bomber on that raid and it was going to be the V3. It was sixty, it was going to fire sixty rounds. Each one was. Hitler apparently had ordered this to be built and be done. It would fire in one go sixty missiles to London, that would land in London in one go. They would fire sixty missiles from the base at Mimoyecques and we had to go in at ten thousand feet because the bombing had to be very accurate for it, apparently and forty five were lost on that raid which was horrendous and because we had to go in at ten thousand feet we were an easy target. We were hit badly by flak and one of the engines caught fire. The pilot doused the fire and flying back once, he said, the flight engineer said all the brakes had gone. The pilot, the turret wouldn’t turn and we had no brakes so the pilot asked each one of us in turn should we land on the sea just on the, by the coast and get out of the plane that way and we all said, each one said, ‘No. Let’s try and get back to base.’ Well we got back to the base but we had no brakes on landing so what happened, the pilot landed the plane, he couldn’t brake, he now cut the other engine in the starboard port engine, the starboard engine had been shot, he cut the engine on the same side, on the starboard side and the, we spun round and round and round and came to a stop and just hit a tree and we all got out but the aircraft could never be used again. We were all lucky to get out. The pilot had done a miraculous job to land a plane with no, to get us all out with no brakes. Yeah, you couldn’t do an operation without something going wrong and tough.
AS: So you did thirty one trips.
HB: Yes.
AS: For your tour.
HB: Yes. You were supposed to do two. You’re supposed to do thirty and then you’re stood down, then whilst I was there on the station earlier on when we were a rookie crew you had to stand by. You didn’t go on the operations. If any personnel on one of the planes couldn’t go that night you’d take his, you’d take his place and after we’d done about six operations we stood by that night and then the pilot said, we had, he said, ‘ Alf,’ he said, ‘I’m sorry to tell you this,’ he said, ‘But you’ll have to go. The air gunner’s been taken ill. He can’t go. You’ll have to take his place.’ So ok I went in his place. It was a French target. The longest one, French target I’d ever been on, it was down almost on the, to the coast and as we got over the coast the fog was something terrible. There was fog from over twenty thousand feet high to the ground and we got nearer so we were all tuned in, could hear what the master bomber was saying and he said, ‘Well chaps,’ he said, ‘We’ll get, try and get to the target, see, maybe the fog will clear.’ Well when we nearly got there the fog hadn’t cleared and the Pathfinders were going around and around, down to three thousand feet and it hadn’t cleared and he said we’d have to cancel the raid and return home. ‘Go back. Make your way back. Drop your bombs in the sea,’ because you can’t land with bombs in your aircraft, which we did. It was a nightmare of an operation. And when I got back all my crew were all waiting for me on the briefing. I said, ‘What are you all doing there? Why are you here?’ They said, ‘We couldn’t go to sleep in our beds while you were out there. We had to wait for you to see you come back,’ and they all patted me on the shoulders you know, shook hands and what a night that was. Never saw anything of the ground. Nightmare flying through the bloody fog. Fog nearly choked us. And then the pilot come to do the thirtieth operation and the pilot said to me, ‘Alf,’ he said, ‘You don’t have to come on this, this one ‘cause it’s your thirty operations. The CO’s told me that if you don’t want to come you can stand down.’ I said, ‘Oh no. All for one, one for all.’ I said, ‘I’ve been through all the lot together I’m still going to go with you with this one, so this will be my thirty first. So the pilot said, ‘Ok. Fine.’ We went and the target was one of the worst in Germany. It’s called Braunschweig, better known to us as Brunswick. Thirty miles just south of Berlin and when we got there, as we nearly got there, I saw an unidentified aircraft. I reported to the pilot an unidentified aircraft. We’d just bombed the target. An unidentified aircraft on the port side. I said, ‘I’m not sure what it is. Whether it’s enemy or ours.’ I said, ‘Well take no chances then. Prepare to corkscrew port.’ So I said, ‘I’m not sure about it. Let’s corkscrew port,’ and he did and we did a dive, went into a dive thirteen thousand feet or more. Just past the target and we flew back over Germany at five thousand feet all the way back to England. We got through. So it was quite a last night. Horrendous target.
AS: So when you, once you’d done your thirty one, what would, what did you do when you stood down for six months?
HB: They sent me to, you could have, they gave you a load of choices and I thought well I’d like to go, maybe go on a radar station on the coast and they did. They sent me to a radar station and they said you know you’ll see action in the planes there. Just sit and you know, just take it easy there. Have a, have a good rest. Myself and the flight engineer both volunteered to go and do the same thing so we both went together to the station and we were treated like lords on this radar station on the south coast. And then I missed, I certainly missed the operational, I certainly missed not being with air crew and I wanted, war was still on and it was, it was ok but we wanted to get back in to the action. We sadly missed all the air crew and the life on the squadron so I volunteered to go back which I did in February 1945 and I volunteered to go in the Pathfinder force. On 83 squadron at Wyton. And although I was operational again I was glad to be with all the air crew again and the operations weren’t as tough. Just did seven but what was really nasty the last couple were on the operation called Manna which was dropping food supplies to the Dutch. The Dutch were starving. I don’t know if you knew about that. They really hadn’t got enough food. We started dropping food at three thousand feet to the Dutch people who were starving who were tremendously, we found after how grateful they were and the German bastards even though the war had just finished but by a few days were still firing at us and shooting us down at three thousand feet dropping food to the Dutch. And a few days after the German gunners you know were still firing and shooting down our bombers. The bastards.
AS: Can you tell, tell me a bit about being in the Pathfinders?
HB: Yeah it was, you know you went in first but it was towards the end of the war. It wasn’t as bad as the early part like my first tour but I was proud to be with them because they did do a tough job and after the war I knew Bennett, knew Bennett very well. They were wonderful people. He was the commander in chief of the Pathfinder force and he was a super chap and a few years after the war I started up, I was instrumental with some others in forming the Air Gunner’s Association. It started about seven sort of years after the war because no association had been formed. We started out and we became very very active and I and others were instrumental in bringing Bomber Harris out of the cold. I had, and went to meet him and he was a most wonderful chap and he really loved his air gunners. He was at the reunions and he was always the chief guest of honour. And I’ll recall for you the story I never tire of telling. This story after the war had finished I’ll recall for you a name that by and large is forgotten now but his name was Albert Speer. Does that name mean anything to you?
AS: Oh yes. I’ve read his, I read his, his book, “Inside the Third Reich.”
HB: Yeah.
AS: And, and several books about him.
HB: Oh that’s interesting. Well he was the only German Nazi, leading Nazi who repented and he was the only one who wasn’t executed and after the war was over he got in touch with Bomber Harris and they told stories to one another about, you know the war efforts and became very friendly. During one of our reunions when Harris was there I had to stand up I’ll stand up, ‘I’d like to recall for you chaps Albert Speer as you all know, who you knew was the head of ammunitions, factories and armaments from the beginning of the war to the end’ and I had to say in front of Bomber Harris here that you will recall, I told all the audience that when Albert Speer spoke to him, Albert Speer said to Harris, ‘if it hadn’t have been for Bomber Command Germany would have won the war.’ And Harris stood up and said, ‘Ha.’ he said, ‘Right,’ he says, ‘Who knew better than him? He was our best customer.’ He’s right.
[pause]
HB: Where would you like me to continue?
AS: Please. When you were in the Pathfinders where were you stationed then?
HB: Wyton. RAF Wyton.
AS: What planes were you going up in at that point?
HB: Lancasters.
AS: Still in Lancasters.
HB: Yeah. No, I wasn’t a fighter pilot.
AS: No. And you were still working as a gunner.
HB: Oh yeah. Once a gunner always a gunner. Yes. And I’m proud to say that I also was instrumental with others, particularly Sir Michael Beetham, Marshall of the Royal Air Force in founding the air gunners, also going to get the Bomber Command Association started. I’ve been on the committee of the Bomber Command Association since day one and been vice chairman for a while.
AS: When, when the end of the war came, can you tell me about that? How did you greet the news that the war had come to an end?
HB: We were delighted, you know, we were happy to be victorious. The war, we all cheered it in the mess and clapped hands, you know, when it was announced and –
[pause]
HB: There was one incident, one nasty incident that I will recall. Just before Christmas 1945, after the end of the war, six months after the war, they thought it was a good idea instead of bringing such a long dragging trip flying the troops home from, it would be better to fly the, quicker to fly the troops home from Germany than, sort of quicker to fly the troops home that were coming back from Singapore or in Italy flying the troops home from Italy quicker than sending them back by boat. So that Christmas week they said you’ll go to, fly to Naples, fill it up with air crew from Italy and fly them back to England. It will save all that drag. So we did, we started, we flew from London to Naples which was a long trip. An eleven hour trip. When we got there, went into the mess, I meet the best friend I ever knew training as an air gunner. He, when I’d gone to Bomber Command, when I was posted he was posted to the Italian campaign and we were so pleased to see one other I can’t tell you. We clutched one another fantastically and he said, ‘Alf,’ he said, ‘And your crew. I’ll tell you what you must do while you’re here in Naples. The thing you mustn’t miss’ He said, ‘You must you must go and see the ruins of Pompeii.’ He says, ‘It’s easy to get there. It’s only five miles away and all day long there’s RAF transport and vans passing from the base here past the entrance to the ruins of Pompeii and,’ I told that, he said, ‘You must get all your crew to go there with you. Yeah. Just get a guard, pay one of the guards of the, who will take you all around Pompeii. Give him a good price and he’ll show you everything that’s there.’ And the rest of the crew said oh that would be marvellous. Pulled, stick on an RAF plane, on an RAF van. We all got in it. He dropped us at Pompeii and we got out and one of the guides, not a guard, a guide I meant and we paid the guy to take us around and we followed him and he pointed out, he spoke perfect English, all the interesting things in Pompeii and then we go downstairs in to the basement and there’s an artist working with his easel there copying all the paintings, the masterpieces on the wall and naturally being artistic I started talking to him and he spoke perfect English and he was explaining everything, what this meant and what he was doing and when I got out and went upstairs I couldn’t see any of the crew, I couldn’t see a person. So I started walking around and now I’m a bit lost and it’s a big place the ruins, in the ruins. I can’t see one person and I started walking along looking and suddenly two little boys about between fourteen and sixteen came up to me and said, ‘Hey Joe, you gotta the money.’ I said, ‘Get away.’ And they said, ‘Hey Joe you gotta the money. Give us the money.’ I said, ‘No. Get away.’ And I can’t find the crew and suddenly from out of nowhere another fifteen, twenty kids started all coming up to me and started tugging at me, pulling at me, ‘Hey Joe you gotta the money.’ I said, ‘No. Get away,’ and I started running to try and get away from them and they started running after me and still there was no one around. And I’m now getting worried. They started tugging me. Pulling me. Then suddenly they started screaming out [parapachi?]. That’s like the Italian word for police and suddenly they all left and ran away into the woods there and suddenly two men with, fully armed with machine guns across their shoulders come up to me and said, ‘ah’, they spoke English, they told me, ‘We’ve saved you,’ he said, ‘They would have killed you for the money. They would have taken every bit of your clothing off.’ Because they were short of money, you know in Naples and all bloody gangsters and God knows, and the mafia there. He said, ‘They would have killed you for the money and have taken a knife to you.’ Although they were only kids, he said ‘they’re really tough ones. ‘We’ll get you back to your crew, the rest of your men, you’ll be safe. Don’t worry anymore.’ And I was, I was nearly assassinated there.
AS: Gosh.
HB: After the war.
AS: When were you demobbed?
HB: 1946. Early ’46.
AS: What did you do in the RAF between the end of the war and when you were demobbed? Obviously fetching troops back was one of them.
HB: Yeah. One of them. They had all kinds of jobs for us. I mean one of the first things we did was to fly the POWs home from Belgium and that was quite a, quite something to talk to the chaps who were POWs and we were all naturally asking them how they were treated and they all said, terribly. And they were all asking me about what it was like for us afterwards and explained to them and one was a squadron leader. I’ll never forget. He had a DFC. When we landed in England he got out. He was the first one to get out, oh and he wanted to sit in the turret during the flight back because he, he said he was shot down in 1940. You know he wasn’t used to, he didn’t know what a Lancaster was. So I let him sit in the Lancaster all, sit in the turret all the way back to England. He got out, started kissing the ground and they all kissed the ground. They all followed him. The, all the prisoners thanking, you know that they were back in England. I wonder what it was for them. It was quite an experience watching them do that, you know. It’s so emotional.
AS: After you were demobbed what did you do then? How did you settle back in to civilian life?
HB: Well the first few months were very very difficult. Incidentally, I do say this. I never told my mum and dad that I was on operations. I told them I was in training all the time and I told all the family, you know I was operations, brothers and sisters, not to mention a word to them because you know they were reading every night, every day forty, fifty, thirty, sixty lost and my father said to me, he says, ‘You must be the lousiest air gunner in the air force,’ he says, ‘You’re always in training.’ So I said, ‘Well it takes a long time,’ and then of course when I finished and I told them and you know he shook his head at me, ‘Oh yeah,’ see, ‘You weren’t a lousy air gunner.’ No. I thought, save them. Why let them go through the agony of reading about the losses every night and knowing it could have been me, me on it and you know parents did have a tough time with their children on ops.
AS: So what did you do when you came home?
HB: I went to St Martin’s Art School to study art and fashion and then [pause] after about five years, six years I got married and then formed my own fashion company designing women’s clothes, coats.
AS: You said you found it difficult when you came home. In what way?
HB: The first six months. It was very difficult to reconcile. You missed the comradeship of your friends and you know rationing was still going on and things were still tough after the war being a civilian. The government I must say was helpful. They did support me in training in the six months I studied at St Martins.
AS: So you, so you studied for six months and then, and then did you start your fashion business then or did you -?
HB: Oh no. No. I went to work.
AS: You went to work.
HB: Someone else had [unclear] it didn’t take me long to be successful. It was strange, the first six months, it really was. To settle down with mum and dad again and my two brothers.
[pause]
HB: Is there anything else you’d like?
AS: Yes.
HB: Question?
AS: When you were, when you were on the base and you were doing operations, how long was it between the different operations? Was there a long time or were they in quick succession?
HB: Sometimes you’d go two nights running which I reckoned, off the record, that that was Harris’ big, one big mistake he made. We should never have been allowed to do, to go on two consecutive, two night’s trips, come back because you, when you came back three or 4 o’clock in the morning you didn’t get a good night’s sleep. They’d wake you up the next day at 8 o’clock to tell you you’d be on operations that night. And you weren’t exactly fit. You were a bit tired. It was a struggle to force yourself but you had to do it. You know, it was an order. You had to go and I think that’s the biggest mistake that Harris made. It’s never been mentioned, that. Going two nights’ consecutive trips was a real struggle. The second one.
AS: When you were, when you were between operations how did you, what did you do? Did you have any social life?
HB: What? Do you mean when I wasn’t on operations? What? Do you mean being on leave?
AS: Well or at the station but waiting for the next one.
HB: Yeah there was the comradeship was very, very strong between the crews and the other crews. You, it was, you know you made it part of your life and there was a pleasant side of it, pleasant side of it in sitting together and chatting with one another.
AS: Did you go out at all?
HB: Yeah. We used to go into the pub at Scunthorpe. Never allowed, he warned us not to drink more than a pint maximum. He was right. You shouldn’t get your head and drink too much.
AS: This was your pilot.
HB: Yes. Or even in the mess when you weren’t on ops not to drink. He was very strict. He made sure we didn’t.
AS: And were they all like that?
HB: Yes. Well he was very strongly. My pilot.
AS: What was your accommodation like in the mess?
HB: Very communal. We always all used to chat about the operations. What they were like and coming back, how tough. Did you see this and that? Talk about the target. And the comradeship was really strong. Really strong. That’s what I missed when I went to the rest for six months you know and that was cushy. I missed the, I missed the life. It got into your blood. The comradeship of your friends. You’d be with them.
AS: You were telling me, you told me earlier about going to the Saracen’s Head in Lincoln.
HB: Yeah.
AS: Can you tell me about, about that?
HB: It was, it was a pleasure to go in to the Saracen’s Head because you met comrades you’d been in training with, now they were on different stations to you now. You met old friends and the comradeship. It was all full of air crew, the Saracen’s Head. Every, so many air crew in there, in there, all chatting and talking to one another. It was, the atmosphere was fantastic. Never before and after was there a place to go into like that. The atmosphere was Bomber Command, you know. Have you heard from so and so and seen so and so. Talk about the different raids.
AS: Did you go there very often?
HB: Did we go there?
AS: Very often?
HB: When we had a stand by, a stand down. Where? At the Saracen’s Head? You always went in there a lot. Up in Scunthorpe it wasn’t, we went in the Saracen’s Head but I look back with a great deal of pride I served in Bomber Command. I mean it was really tough at times, you know, the losses were fifty five thousand killed out of a hundred thousand. We took the biggest loss pro rata of any other force during the war and we still have that. All my best friends are ex bomber chaps. We all stuck to one another closely. You can’t find it with other people like you can with a, with a comrade. Mind you, in the army you know they had the same thing. My dad, he used to stand on street corners with others from the First World War all talking and chatting to one another in groups of three or four.
AS: Well thank you very much. It’s been, it’s been fascinating listening to your story.
HB: I hope you have. Oh what about a cup of tea?
AS: I’d love a cup of tea. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Alfred Huberman
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Sadler
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-29
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHubermanA160329
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:10:46 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Alfred Huberman volunteered for the RAF when he was eighteen and trained as an air gunner. He describes the training and emphasises how physically hard it was. He flew 31 operations from RAF Elsham Wolds in Lancasters. These included operations over the Ruhr and the bombing of the V-3 weapon site at Mimoyecques. After he completed his tour he was stationed at a radar station but missed the camaraderie of his crew so volunteered for further active operational duties and served with the Pathfinder force at RAF Wyton. He completed a further 7 flights for Operations Manna and Exodus. After the war he was very active in forming the Air Gunner's Association and also served on the committee of the Bomber Command Association.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
France--Mimoyecques
Wales--Bridgend
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carolyn Emery
576 Squadron
83 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bombing of the Mimoyecques V-3 site (6 July 1944)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crewing up
fear
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
Master Bomber
military ethos
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Pathfinders
physical training
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Wyton
training
V-3
V-weapon
Wellington