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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/27/215/PFilliputtiA16010126.2.jpg
ee52b1ff372bfb0380d0df36c0f70393
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Filiputti, Angiolino
Angiolino Filiputti
Alfonsino Filiputti
A Filiputti
Description
An account of the resource
127 items. The collection consists of a selection of works created by Alfonsino ‘Angiolino’ Filiputti (1924-1999). A promising painter from childhood, Angiolino was initially fascinated by marine subjects but his parents’ financial hardships forced an end to his formal education after completing primary school. Thereafter, he took up painting as an absorbing pastime. Angiolino depicted some of the most dramatic and controversial aspects of the Second World War as seen from the perspective of San Giorgio di Nogaro, a small town in the Friuli region of Italy. Bombings, events reported by newspapers, broadcast by the radio or spread by eyewitnesses, became the subject of colourful paintings, in which news details were embellished by his own rich imaginings. Each work was accompanied by long pasted-on captions, so as to create fascinating works in which text and image were inseparable. After the war, however, interest in his work declined and Angiolino grew increasingly disenchanted as he lamented the lack of recognition accorded his art, of which he was proud.
The work of Angiolino Filiputti was rediscovered thanks to the efforts of Pierluigi Visintin (San Giorgio di Nogaro 1946 – Udine 2008), a figurehead of the Friulan cultural movement, author, journalist, screenwriter and translator of Greek and Latin classical works into the Friulan language. 183 temperas were eventually displayed in 2005 under the title "La guerra di Angiolino" (“Angiolino’s war”.) The exhibition toured many cities and towns, jointly curated by the late Pierluigi Visintin, the art critic Giancarlo Pauletto and Flavio Fabbroni, member of the Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Institute for the history of the resistance movement in the Friuli region).
The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Anna and Stefano Filiputti, the sons of Angiolino Filipputi, for granting permission to reproduce his works. The BCC Digital Archive is also grateful to Alessandra Bertolissi, wife of Pierluigi Visintin, Alessandra Kerservan, head of the publishing house Kappa Vu and Pietro Del Frate, mayor of San Giorgio di Nogaro.
Originals are on display at
Biblioteca comunale di San Giorgio di Nogaro
Piazza Plebiscito, 2
33058 San Giorgio di Nogaro (UD)
ITALY
++39 0431 620281
info.biblioteca@comune.sangiorgiodinogaro.ud.it
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Filiputti, A-S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Eder, Möhne and Sorpe operation
Description
An account of the resource
A Lancaster flies over the explosion of an Upkeep bouncing bomb against a dam. A second aircraft has been hit by anti-aircraft fire and is plunging towards the water, engulfed in flames and smoke. A third Lancaster is visible on the right with a bomb visible below it.
Label reads “320 bis”; signed by the author; caption reads “16 MAGGIO 1943. Ore 21.28 il primo “Lancaster” inglese dell’operazione “castise” [Chastise] si alza in volo da Scampton, con a bordo il tenente colonello Guj Penrose Gibson [Guj Penrose Gibson] della RAF, pilota notturno dagli obiettivi impossibili, prima sull‘Italia settentrionale, poi sulle dighe della Rhur. Si prova la bomba rotante, o rimbalzante a forma cilindrica, alta m 1.50 diametro di 1.27 pesa 4.196 Kg con carica esplosiva di 2.992 Kg. – 18 bombardieri in 3 ondate attaccano le dighe di Mohne [Möhne], di Sarpe [Sorpe], di Scwelme [Schwelm], e al 3o tentativo quella di Eder, squarciata, 110 milioni di metri cubi d’acqua precipitano a valle. La contraerea spara a zero, 8 bombardieri su 19 sono abbattuti, il 20 settembre 1944 Guj Penrose Gibson [Guy Penrose Gibson] decorato con “Victoria cross” in azione con “master bomber” su Rheidt [Rheydt], sarà abbattuto.”
Caption translates as: “16 May 1943, 9.28 pm. The first British Lancaster involved in operation Chastise took off from Scampton, carrying the RAF Lieutenant Colonel Guy Penrose Gibson. He was the night pilot of impossible operations: at first on the North of Italy, then on the Rhur dams. They tried the rotating bomb, or the bouncing one, a cylindrical device which measuring 1.5 metres in height, 1.27 metres in diameter, weighing 4,196 kilograms, and with an 2.992 kilograms explosive charge. 18 bombers attacked the Möhne, Sorpe and Schwelm [sic} dams in three waves. On the third attempt they hit the dam in Eder. They collapsed and 110 million cubic metres of water rushed downstream. The anti-aircraft artillery fired point blank, shooting down eight bombers out of nineteen. On 20 September 1944, Guy Penrose Gibson, who was honoured with the “Victoria Cross”, was shot down in action as “master bomber” over Rheydt.”
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFilliputtiA16010126
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Creator
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Angiolino Filiputti
Contributor
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Francesca Campani
Alessandro Pesaro
Helen Durham
Giulia Banti
Maureen Clarke
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Eder Dam
Germany--Sorpe Dam
Germany
Germany--Möhne River Dam
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One tempera on paper, pasted on mount board
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
617 Squadron
anti-aircraft fire
arts and crafts
bombing
bouncing bomb
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
Master Bomber
Victoria Cross
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/159/2504/AParkinsHW150612.2.mp3
a7b074df4b419b69687ccb1c168e6939
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Parkins, Harry
H W Parkins
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. Two oral history interviews with Harry Parkins (891679 Royal Air Force), his logbook, identity card and one photograph. Harry Parkins was a flight engineer with 630 Squadron and 576 Squadron and flew 30 night time and 17 daylight operations from RAF Fiskerton and RAF East Kirkby.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Harry Parkins and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: Harry, you were going to tell me the story of being shot at.
HP: Yes it was on the 21st of the 6th ‘44, we were on operations to Wessling, and we had twelve thousand pounds worth on bombs, we succeeded in doing that but on the way back I spotted what I thought was a plane coming towards us, I shouted to the gunners ‘cause [sic] they hadn’t seen it, and as it got nearer it started firing tracer bullets which was very frightening, and the gunners spotted it and shot at it and luckily they downed it, so we were able to get back home safely but I went down to see where the tracer bullet had gone in the aircraft to see if there was any serious damage, I couldn’t see any but when we landed the ground crew actually cried because there was seventeen holes in the plane and it didn’t fly again, a shame that was, and that took us four hours twenty minutes that trip.
DE: Where were you standing when you saw this aircraft attacking you?
HP: I was just standing by the seat that’s next to the pilot, where there’s a little dome, and standing in that dome you can see all the way round, and I always liked to look all the way round when I wasn’t checking the engines because, it was your job really to spot anything, and some of the frightening aspects of it is if the Perspex wasn’t cleaned very well, in the night time, incidentally that was a night time flight, in the night time if you saw a little speck of dirt that hadn’t been cleaned it could be a fighter coming after you, so we always wanted the ground crew to make sure the Perspex was always as clean as possible.
DE: So what did an incoming eighty-eight look like then?
HP: [slight laugh] it’s hard to remember because with the tracer bullets coming at you, you practically didn’t see the plane, all you saw was these lights coming at you, which was very frightening, it’s bad enough being shot at but to see, actually see it coming at you, it was worse than ever.
DE: Did the pilot take any evasive action?
HP: Yes, he did a slight corkscrew but not too much because the gunners had got the plane, and it went down, so he really didn’t have to do a corkscrew, but that’s a frightening thing when you do a corkscrew, because at one time coming back from an operation, I forget where that was, we were caught in searchlights, and that again is another frightening thing, and it’s, it’s like being on a stage completely naked and everyone’s looking at you, and well the gunner shouted to do a corkscrew and it went really mad, it was a really violent corkscrew, you thought the wings were gonna [sic] come off, but we managed to get out of the searchlight and carry on home, again we were lucky.
DE: And when you landed, you say the ground crew were really upset, was it that obvious then that the plane had been hit?
HP: Yeah, you could see all the holes in the side, yeah, but we didn’t know until after briefing how many holes there was, seventeen all told [sic], which is quite a lot, [pause] that was our twentieth operation that one.
DE: So, you mentioned at certain points when the searchlights were on you or if you were being shot at you felt frightened, how did you feel before and during operations normally?
HP: I didn’t feel too bad because, I think half the time being a young age it was like excitement more than anything else, you didn’t really have a lot of fear at all, at least I didn’t, and I don’t think the rest of the crew did, except maybe the rear gunner because that time when we had a mid-air collision, I think that really frightened him.
DE: But he was OK?
HP: He carried on until the end yeah, and when we finished the tour of ops, they went back to their various countries, which was Australia and New Zealand.
DE: You had another story about some low flying?
HP: Oh yes, my skipper like to do low flying, and, we were low flying what we called air to sea firing where the gunners fired off their guns to make sure everything was OK and you checked various things in the plane and coming back, he decided to do a bit of low flying along Skegness and in actual fact when I looked out from my little blister, I could see the pier above us [laughs], and he still carried on and as we passed further along near to the pier there was two men in a boat, who must have thought we were coming into crash because they jumped out the boat [laughs] and we passed them and coming up to Butlins camp which at that time had been taken over by the navy, and the navy was having a parade on their parade ground and he went so low that the parade all scarpered and ducked down and we all laughed at that and carried on back to East Kirkby, but a couple of days later we were called to the group captains office and he said, ‘first of all you needn’t deny this because we’ve got people who witnessed your aircraft number from the naval station’ and he said the naval officer in charge contacted him because he knew it was from East Kirkby and said that ‘tell your crew that next time if they do that, it won’t be air to sea firing, it’ll be ground to air firing’ and he just said ‘dismissed’, I think he thought it was more of a joke as well [pause], anything else?
DE: Well anything else you can tell me?
HP: I don’t know if I told you about when Pilot Officer Jackson and I went, three, twice with him, did I tell you that?
DE: Yes you did.
HP: I’m just trying to think of the other thing.
DE: Yes you said that three was your lucky number.
HP: Yes, well I lived in 13, Churchill Walk in England, in London I should say and we had a bomb dropped on the next street and it shattered all the windows of our street, right the way along except number thirteen, never touched the windows at all, and with no explanation for that at all.
DE: Would you say you are quite a superstitious person then?
HP: In the way of three and thirteen, yes.
DE: What about any lucky charms did you have anything?
HP: No, never had lucky charms but quite a few air crew used to have lucky charms, and my opinion is that often the lucky charms cause them to do something wrong and end up being either shot down or crashed, because when you think about it, if a member of the crew had a lucky charm and he’d gone and left it before he was flying, instead of his mind being on what he should be doing, his mind was on, ‘what did I do with that lucky charm?’ and during that period something could happen, but that was only my opinion.
DE: So you think it’s more professional just to keep your mind focused on the job?
HP: Oh yes, definitely.
DE: Did you know if anybody in your crew had anything like that?
HP: No, none of them, none at all, the only thing we considered a lucky charm was our whistle and we all had a whistle it was always pinned to your coat.
DE: So the other thing I’ve read about is similar superstitions that if you associated with a certain woman she was unlucky or anything like that, do you have any stories about things like that?
HP: No, the only story I had was that one of the air crew, I don’t know who he was, I think he was a pilot, he’d got going with one of the girls in the village and after a while, whether he got fed up with her or not, she found out that he’d been seeing someone else when he said he was off flying and she happened to be in, the, it was a WAF and she happened to be in where they had the parachutes and as a revenge apparently she cut the strings of the parachute and of course nothing happened for a while but eventually they were shot up and the crew bailed out but his parachute didn’t open properly and that was the end of him, there was an enquiry about that but it was more or less hushed up because it would’ve scared other members of the crew. Whether that was a true story I don’t know but that’s the story that went round.
DE: And you heard that on, during your time on operations?
HP: Yes.
DE: Did you have any associations with any WAF’s?
HP: No, only when I was training I had a association with a land army girl who lived in Nottingham, and, I think it’s more or less after, no towards the end of the war, I was stationed at Stirgate and we got leave and I thought ‘oh I’d go into Nottingham and see if I could find this land army girl’ and as it happened, whilst I was in Nottingham I met up with some Americans and they got chatting to me and they said they had a club, would I like go into the club and having a few drinks, well a few drinks ended up to a lot of drinks and then I found out where this land army girl lived and I knocked on the door and she came out and give me a cuddle and said ‘oh lets go for a walk’, and at Nottingham there’s the Lincoln castle where you go up a sort of a hill, and we were walking up there and we got to the top, we were going to sit down and have a chat and I was dying for a leak [slight laugh] and I said ‘I’m ever so sorry, I’ve got to go and find a toilet’ and I actually run down all the hill to find somewhere, I found somewhere, when I went back up she’d gone, [slight laugh] that was the end of that ‘cause [sic] she didn’t like people drinking, and that’s about the only experience I had.
DE: Did you have a lot to do with Americans then?
HP: Not really, but we did have an American who swapped a pilots, with, he came to East Kirkby as a pilot on Lancaster’s and an English pilot went onto theirs, to go onto super fortresses , just an exchange and it appeared the American was a bit of an unruly type so that’s why they were keen to get rid of him go to the RAF, but if ever we went out together because we always get chatting together, he would go into Boston with us and instead of wearing either his American outfit or his British outfit he used to go with part aircrew American on top and part RAF at the bottom and he was always being picked up by MP’s, but being American he always got away with it, and there was one incident where, it was when a lot of prisoners made an escape and the Germans found out where they were coming up and I don’t know if you ever read about it but the Germans shot, I think it was about thirty or forty of the escapees, so at that time the group captain said that if anybody wanted to draw a gun, fifteen rounds of ammunition, he’s not saying you should do that but if you felt you wanted to you could do, so I think nearly half the air force drew guns and fifteen rounds of ammunition, and this American he’d got his gun and fifteen rounds of ammunition, and outside his nissen hut, there was a tree where a blackbird used to come every day twittering away and it upset him he didn’t like this blackbird so he went outside and fired at it but he never hit it at all until he run out of ammunition , and I can remember also, where you went for ablutions, it was in a place outside where your nissen hut was, and they used to issue you with a tin bowl, and I was walking across with this tin bowl and all of a sudden a bullet hit this tin bowl [laughing], I dropped the tin bowl and rushed into the ablution, never found out who fired it, but there was so much ridiculous firing going on round the airdrome at East Kirkby that the group captain got to know about this and he said ‘right, that is stupid of all these people’, so he wanted all the guns handed, handed in and all the ammunition handed in, well, all the guns were handed in OK but I think there was only ten rounds of ammunition, all the rest had been spent. Similar things like, in my crew a New Zealander, he didn’t like flies and we used to often play darts a lot and he saw this fly going across the dart board so out come the gun firing, [laughing] firing at the fly, so as I say there was all daft things like that going on, that’s why the group said, group captain said ‘right they’ve all got to come back in again’, he didn’t trust any of them.
DE: So, people in your crew took them, did you take one?
HP: Oh yeah, we all took one I think, as I say, I think everybody who was allowed to took one, I never fired mine, I don’t think my crew did except this New Zealander, he did at the dart board [laughs] a crazy lot.
DE: I’ve read in other people’s stories that the medical officers sometimes gave tablets to help you get through night operations, did that ever happen with you?
HP: Never heard of it, never, although once when I got a sty on my eye it was considered to be unlucky if you couldn’t go off on your routine operations one after the other all the way through, and I got such a bad sty on my eye, I thought ‘well they won’t let me fly’, so I said to the crew ‘I’m going down to sick quarters’ to see if they can do anything, and sick quarters was quite a way off the airdrome and it had a seat in there which was just concrete to sit on while you was waiting to be seen by the doctor, well when I got there there was nobody else there but the doctor wasn’t there, and while I was sat there, the dentist came out and he said ‘it must be freezing cold over there, son’ he said ‘come in, sit on the dentist chair and we’ll have a look at your teeth’ [laughs] so he had a look at me teeth and before I knew it he’d took one out and [laughs] I got blood all over me shirt and I said ‘oh I only came in for me eye’ he said ‘well it was much warmer in here wasn’t it?’, [laughs] and I said ‘yes’ and his WAF helper, she said ‘oh here’s the doctor now, so you can go in next door and see the doctor’, and he looked at me and said ‘good God, what’s all this blood all over you?’ ‘I said ‘well the dentist decided to keep me in the warm and took a tooth out’ and I’m sure, it was that one there, and I’m sure there was nothing wrong with it, and he looked at me eye and he said ‘I could lance it’ and he played around with the sty for several minutes and he said ‘if you go back and rest before you get your briefing’ he said, ‘I think you’ll be OK’ and that was it, I carried on on ops.
DE: I would’ve thought you’d need more time off for having a tooth out?
HP: Yeah [laughs]. We certainly had some funny things happening during our time in the RAF.
DE: You briefly mentioned the ablutions then, what were the living accommodations and the ablutions like there?
HP: Well it was only a nissen hut with so many beds all the way down which weren’t all that comfortable but you had plenty of blankets that you could put underneath or over the top of the mattress so it weren’t too bad and the ablutions was, well you had to take your own bowl, you didn’t get hot water, just turned the tap on and that was it, so it was very sparse, but you got on with it, you didn’t complain, if you complained nothing would happen about it [slight laugh], and another thing happened, they used to be card mad and if you weren’t on any day light trips or anything like that, you used to sit there playing pontoon or shoot, shoot pontoon, I don’t know if you knew that, it was where you had a dealer and he’d go round to everybody to see how much they’d put it the deal in the front, either to match his or over match it then as they dealt the cards round to each person you said ‘shoot’, either put a bit more money in or you left it as it was and you either lost or you won and you took something out or put something in and when it got to my turn, I had an ace and I thought its worth shooting the lot , so I shot the lot, I got a queen and the damn dealer got a king so his took preference over mine so I lost the lot and another fella next to me, weren’t member of my crew, he had an Indian motorbike and he’d done the similar thing and lost it all so he still wanted to go again so dealer said ‘what have you got?’ and he said ‘well, I’ve got no money left but I’ll put my motor bike in’ [laughs] and he put the motorbike in and he lost, so round it went and when it came to my turn again and I said ‘I’ve got no money neither but I’ll shoot the motorbike and I’ll have to pay if I lose, at a later date’, anyways I won so I won this motorbike and I had no clues what so ever how to drive a motorbike, and the fella who had originally lost it, he said ‘you lucky devil’ he said ‘I’ll show you what to do’ and we got outside the nissen hut ‘cause the card game had finished and he said ‘right, you do this, do that, and away you go’, so I did that and did that and I went straight through the ablution, straight through [laughs], straight through the covers that were on the outside and just stopped so I said ‘no I don’t want this anymore’ [laughing], I had a few bruises but the motorbike was OK, except where there was a big hole in the side of the ablution, so the next time we played I put the motorbike in purely to lose it, and I never went on a motorbike again.
DE: Probably quite right. So did you play cards with other crews?
HP: Yeah there was all sorts that used to mix in with playing cards yeah, yeah there was one time when we were due leave but the train wasn’t due till, I forget probably about half past ten or eleven and we were always up before seven, you go for your breakfast, come back and waiting to go in, get in to Boston station and you’d play cards, and I played cards and lost again, lost all me money, I went on leave purely with your leave application where you didn’t have to pay anything and when I got to London, I relied on my father to pay for the fayre to get back home, and I said what I had been doing, playing cards and he said ‘your best bet is to leave cards alone unless you’ve got a good memory for where cards turn up’, so I never played cards again [slight laugh].
DE: So just quickly going back to the nissen hut, who did you share with?
HP: Just your own crew, maybe, possibly another crew that were in a nissen hut nearby, so it weren’t too bad, bit cold in winter though, yeah [pause], but I had a cut throat razor, as where we used to live in London, we always used to go to the top of the road ‘cause there was a Jewish barber there and he was always asking about me, when I come home on leave I always used to go there to have a haircut and have a chat with him and he said, ‘you’ll soon be needing to shave, won’t you?’, I said ‘well I got a little bit of stubble coming’, he said ‘I’ve got something for you, I’ve saved this for you’ and it was a German crop razor one of the best there could be and he said, ‘there you are, that’s for you’ and eventually I had to use this, and people used to come and watch me shaving thinking that if I got the twitch from flying I’d cut myself [slight laugh] but I never did and then we went off somewhere and we came back and somehow the call up[?] seemed to go astray, went wrong and instead of landing at east Kirkby we landed at another field, airfield nearby, can’t remember what it was, it might have been Strubby or some name like that, and when we landed we had briefing and they said ‘oh you are not far from East Kirkby so you may as well stay the night, which we did, then next morning refuelled and fly back to East Kirkby, when I went into the nissen hut there was nothing of mine there, it had all gone, and I had a wallet where one of the young ladies I knew in London had given me a ten pound note and I’d always kept that in this wallet for emergencies and that had gone, ‘cause you weren’t allowed to take anything on ops with you, nothing to identify you, and what had happened, if any crews were shot down or didn’t come back, rather than send any of the stuff that the person had kept, they used to have what they called a committee of adjustments, and that was where the stuff was put in to be auctioned off and everything was auctioned and I lost all my stuff, and other members of the crew had lost their radio or maybe a bike, it was all gone, so I never ever got my razor back.
DE: Oh dear and this was because you were somewhere else for one night?
HP: Yeah, they thought we had been shot down.
DE: So for the sake of one phone call, you lost all your kit.
HP: Yeah. That was one of those things, but hardly anybody had ever heard of it, committee of adjustments, I’ve never heard of anybody who knew about it, none of the parents or lovers knew about it either, it just all sort of vanished.
DE: And over efficient as well it seems.
HP: Yeah, very efficient [laughs]
DE: You mentioned when you were talking about your razor, about the dangers of shaving if you got the twitch, could you explain a little bit about the twitch?
HP: Yeah, well that was where some air crew who had got so scared, that they were too scared to admit that they were frightened and they used to have a sort of twitch which gave them away, you know when they were walking along they would go like that somehow, do a funny little twitch with a hand or the head and we we [sic] had one fella who had got it so bad he was walking along as though he was carrying a ladder and if anybody was near him they’d shout at them ‘get out the way, can’t you see the ladder?’ and he’d got nothing, again [laughing] this is what we called the twitch.
DE: Did these people carry on flying then?
HP: Some of them did and some of them didn’t, they ended up in hospital you know having consultations and things like that, see if they could get them back to normal.
DE: Did you know anyone personally?
HP: No. I say on an airdrome or a base you’d mainly know your own crew really thoroughly but other crews you didn’t really mix a lot at all, so didn’t know many of them at all, ‘cause many a time I spoke or people have asked me about being in East Kirkby and they say, ‘do you know Jack Thompson?’, I said ‘never heard of him’, ‘oh well he was there, he was at East Kirkby’, as I say you just didn’t know these people, unless they were someone famous.
DE: So you wouldn’t talk to each other in briefing or anything like that then?
HP: Not really no, ‘cause your crew was your crew altogether and further down was their crew, all listening to what was going on.
DE: I see, what about the ground personnel and the ground crew that looked after your aircraft?
HP: They were smashing, really good blokes, yeah.
DE: Did you have more to do with them then?
HP: Not really, only when we took off and come back again, so you didn’t really mix with them in the mess because most of them were, I forgot what, LAC’s, they weren’t sergeants or anything like that, so they were in a different category.
DE: I just wondered if you chatted to them about anything out on the dispersals?
HP: You did occasionally but not very often, not unless like when we came back and we had seventeen holes and they were upset about it.
DE: Did you always fly the same aircraft then if you could?
HP: No you had several different aircrafts but in just looking at that, we flew an X, X X X X, the same Lancaster all the time there, then, after that X X, Q V, all different letters to the different Lancaster’s.
DE: I’ve read somewhere that the ground crew said that the aircraft belonged to them and the air crew only borrowed it.
HP: Yes [laughs] I think that’s true as well, because they really were good blokes, nothing wrong with them at all, they really looked after your aircraft, [pauses] in fact they should have got more praise than they ever did, ground crews.
DE: Did you have any views about what you were doing? I know it’s been a matter of debate since the war a lot.
HP: Not really, but I always thought we were doing the right thing as being a Londoner and being in the Blitz, seeing what had been happening in London and you felt you were doing the right thing to do the same thing back to them.
DE: Yes you mentioned last time we spoke how you were on your way to work and the factory wasn’t there anymore.
Hp: Yeah, so you know you had that feeling we were doing the proper thing.
DE: I can’t remember if I asked you much about your recruitment and your training?
HP: Well I think I mentioned that, two lads at the outer city trip (?-name of company) transport company where we were thinking we might get called up, we were having our lunch and we were debating should we volunteer and we decided we ought to so we got what we wanted and we went straight out after lunch, straight down to the recruiting office and both volunteered for the RAF and that was because I thought it was safer in the air than on the ground at the time.
DE: Yes you said that you didn’t want to join the navy because you couldn’t swim very well.
HP: No only across the canal because there was a big canal near us in London and we often used to go and swim across the canal, and we also used to get an old bike wheel, break all the spokes out and thread a sack round, put some string on and drop it down, pull it up and we’d got loads of sticklebacks and it reminded me of that, seeing I don’t know if you watch it, Countryfile, it was showing you about a stickleback there that was blowing its nest waiting for the little ones to come out and they called it the star of the show and it reminded me of that because we used to sell these sticklebacks then to other kids, because everybody used to like a fish in a jar, made a little bit of money doing that. [laughs]
DE: But you were expected into the RAF and then you went away?
HP: Yes we, we went first of all to the flats were film stars used to be, the RAF had accommodated those and I thought it was marvellous because the bathroom was cut glass all the way around with like fish swimming round and I thought ‘boy this is the life to be in the RAF’ but that was only temporary while we were doing the training, and also on the square we had a fella called Alva Liddel, he used to be an announcer for the news and he always used to say ‘this is the news and Alva Liddel speaking it’ and he happened to be in, I don’t know whether he volunteered or not or was called up, but he was on the square and in the papers it said ‘this is Alva Liddel on the square, bashing it’, so that was interesting and we were opposite London zoo and we had our food in the zoo, and people used to be wondering around looking at us having food in the zoo which seemed strange to them, and there used to be a place, I forget the name of the place but we used to march from the flats where the square was, down across the stop lights on Marylebone road to a swimming baths, where we used to have training for, if you came down how to turn the, not the airborne lifeboat, it was like a big circle, I can’t remember what they call that now, but often if you dropped it for you to go in to, it would turn up the wrong way so the bottom of it was on the top and there was like a suction, so you had to be able to go over the top of it, hold on just where the bottle was for blowing it up, grab hold of that and pull yourself up like that and go right the way under and re-put it right, [DE: turn the dingy the right way round] yeah dingy that was it I couldn’t remember what they were called them, yeah and I wasn’t pretty good at that even though I couldn’t swim very far, but they used to make you march in this place as well, because they put boards across and if it was raining you could go in there and do your marching up and down on these boards, when it was swimming they used to take all the boards up and you did the swimming exercise, and there was one where this sergeant he called out, I don’t know if I mentioned this before, he called out that all the crews that were there had to put on their flying suit and he said ‘I want all the swimmers this end and all the non-swimmers that end’, so I thought to myself ‘I don’t know what he’s going to do so I’m going to go to the non-swimmers’ so I was down the non-swimmers which was the least deep part of it and all the swimmers were up by the diving board, then he said ‘right I don’t want anybody to move but all the non-swimmers come up by the diving board’, all the swimmers went down to the non-deep side and the idea was you had to climb up to the top diving board and jump off with your flying suit on then swim to the side if you could, and I was that scared of having to go up that ladder I kept getting behind and behind and behind, and I was the last one and everybody was booing me and he came up to me and he said ‘I can understand you being scared but just go up to the top, I’ll come with you and just look over and you’ll be OK’, he said ‘then you can come back down’ so I believed him and I went up with him, got to the top, and he said ‘you can let go of the bars either side’, so I let go and he just pushed me and down I went and I went right down under, well I didn’t come up because where the zips on my flying suit didn’t work they just filled up with water, held me down, so there was panic on to fish me out, get me back and pump me chest to get me spilling all the water out and after a while I was OK, but I wouldn’t dive after that [slight laugh], and that was a frightening experience, and I always hoped that I would never have to jump out of an aircraft into the sea or even have to turn the dingy over, but luckily we never had to, but that was a frightening experience before I even got to flying.
DE: So what other things did they have you doing for your training to be an engineer?
HP: Oh before you was, became an engineer you had to do like army training, going through tunnels and climbing over things and that was done at Bridlington, I think I mentioned that, [DE: briefly yes], well that was where we were marching along and I looked over the side and I thought that looks like my Uncle Ernie, and I didn’t know he was in the army, he’d been called up, and I just went marching over to him, because the sergeant halted the crew, came over to me and shouted, shouted a few abusive words at me and I said ‘well that’s my Uncle Ernie’, he said ‘I don’t care if it’s the f’ing queen’ he said ‘you don’t walk out of my marching section’, so I got ten days working in the cook house cleaning dirty tins, yeah, and he got chatting to me uncle to see if it was true, he was my uncle and they got quite friendly and he used to arrange football matches between the RAF and the army, ‘cause the army didn’t get on very well with the RAF but that broke the ice down.
DE: Why didn’t the army and the RAF get on?
HP: Well we were called the ‘Brylcreem boys’ [laughs], supposed to be the aloof.
HP: Did I mention that on, when they were expecting the invasion from the Germans they put us on duty either end of Bridlington with our rifle, so many rounds of ammunition and you had to march up a little way and back just to see if there was any invaders coming and shoot them, and this particular time it was a moonlight night with the clouds suddenly going over, and I looked up at one of the hotels and I could see what I thought was somebody flashing to the enemy, so I thought ‘well I’ve got to go and investigate as I’ve seen it’, and I got my rifle ready, I went scrambling up the stairs, right to the top, and as I went along the top corridor I saw another fella coming at me with the rifle and it frightened the life out of me, I dropped my torch, dropped my rifle and ran like mad and when I got to the bottom I thought ‘that was odd, nobody shot at me and nobody come running after me’ and I couldn’t work it out so I thought I better go back, pick me gun up, rifle, and when I got up there I realised I’d saw myself in a mirror [laughs] at the end of the corridor and there was anybody there and the light that I thought was somebody signalling was as a cloud went over the moon it was flickering on the window and the window was sort of flashing, I never told anybody about that [slight laugh] so that was another funny story.
DE: Were you at Bridlington very long then?
HP: Not long, no.
DE: Where did you go after that?
HP: After Bridlington, it was to do with going down to Saint Athens where you learnt everything from the book and from me looking at the engines to find out how they all worked and that took a couple of months, so you really knew everything about the Stirling bomber, and then you eventually went flying with different people in a Stirling and that’s where I said you were dead scared seeing as you’ve never flown before and you were meeting your crew for the first time in the bar, and that’s when this Aussie, rear gunner come up to me and said ‘you sound a bit like us, mate’ I said ‘why where you from?’ because I didn’t know where he was from, he said ‘Australia, where are you from?’ I said ‘Hackney’ he said ‘where’s Hackney?’, I said ‘in London’ he said ‘that sounds good, Hackney Harry’, ‘cause I’d told him my name and that’s when he said come and meet the crew, and I think I went through that.
DE: Yeah you did, you mentioned you got put on a charge and had to work in a kitchen?
HP: Yeah that was through meeting me uncle.
DE: What did they have you doing in there?
HP: Well all the greasy tins when they fried anything or done anything, they couldn’t wash them straight away, so you had to scrub away with the brush to get all the grease off and you had to do that at breakfast time, dinner time and evening meal time, which weren’t very good [slight laugh].
DE: Was it a fitting punishment then do you think?
HP: Yeah, I didn’t think so at the time, but there in the hotel where we used to go into, there was a stairway like that coming up with a landing like that and the toilet was right in the middle, and there was no locks or anything on it, did I tell you about that? [DE: no] well there used to be a scotch fella, who always had a great big knife, always down the side of his belt and I was on the toilet and this scotch fella came out, bashed the door open and said ‘out’ [emphasis], like that and it so infuriated me, I head butted him, he’s much bigger than me, great big bloke, and he went over the banisters, landed on the floor, I, I honestly thought I’d killed him and the sergeant come over and he was still laid there, he’d been knocked out actually, ended up in sick quarters, and all the rest of the air crew that used to be training there they were really scared of this scotch men and I became his best friend because nobody had ever stood up to him and it really upset him and he looked after me from then on, [slight laugh] but it was a frightening experience.
DE: Did you keep in touch with him?
HP: No, no once we split up, went off to you know the squadron where you met your crew and started flying with them, and as I said before it was with Stirling’s to start with and then after a little while they decided Lancaster’s were coming in, so you ended up at East Kirkby on Lancaster’s and I think I told you what happened when I said that I needed more training, they put me on ops.
DE: Yeah. That’s smashing, I think we’ll call that a day unless you can think of any other amusing anecdotes? I’ve ticked all the questions I had for you.
HP: Yeah, well when I was at the end of my first tour training with, I think I said that the pilot trained a pilot and the engineer trained an engineer, and I was with a, a pilot and we’d be on a cross country or something and it was dark when we were coming back so they used to let you go round the circuit before you came in, and this particular time someone fired up a red flare which meant there was danger you couldn’t land, and the pilot carried on landing and I said to him ‘we can’t land, there’s something wrong’, I think somebody had crashed before us, so he said ‘oh, we better go round again’, so we went round again, he was a squadron leader and he’d been on a lot of ops, and as we come round again, another red flare went up and he said ‘oh good we’re ok now’, I said ‘no it’s a red flare, what’s up with you, are you blind or something?’ [laughs] and round we went again and we were called up on the intercom to keep flying round until a green flare was fired, so we did this until I spotted a green flare coming up and I said ‘it’s ok now, there’s a green flare’, so he said ‘ok, we’ll go into land’ and when we’d landed and taxied round I said to him ‘I know you are a higher rank than me but I’m wondering if you’re bloody colour blind’ and he said ‘sssh, I am’ [whispers] and he said ‘I’ve never admitted it to anyone’, he says ‘so please, please don’t report me’, I didn’t know what to do really, because he was training he wasn’t on ops anymore so I just forgot about it, and I thought well if he’d been on ops, he’s done his share so let the poor bloke carry on, but that was frightening as well ‘cause if I hadn’t had said something he would have gone in and probably have crashed into the other plane crash.
DE: Which operation training unit was this you were at then?
HP: Can’t remember where that was. It might have been at Stirgate, fifty squadron ,Stirgate, it was there and that’s where we went on to picking up the passengers in Italy.
DE: Yes, you told me about that.
HP: Oh and another time we had to go to Brussels, this was after the war, to pick up twenty four ex-prisoners of war and the first time went there, everything went through OK, we had a couple of days off and then we had to go again and as we were coming into land, my pilot was looking either side because there’d been a lot of aircraft that had crashed there, and they were just bulldozed over the side and he was looking at, ‘oh look at that, that’s an American so and so, oh look at that’, and there was a great big gulley where somebody had crashed there and they’d moved the plane out the way and we went into that and burst a tire and an American bulldozer come out, up to us, I’d got, well we’d all got out the plane and he said ‘ok, everybody out the plane, I’m bulldozing you over to the side ‘cause other planes have got to come in’, I said ‘no you daren’t, you’re not gonna [sic] bulldoze my plane’, I said ‘we’ll wait until we get a new tyre’ he said ‘no I’m gonna bull doze it’, so all the crew stood in front of him so he couldn’t do it so in the end he gave up and somebody else came out and towed us over to the side where we had to wait for somebody to bring out another wheel for us, and that was at Brussels and we ended up at Melbrook, wherever that was and then we got the tyre all sorted out and then went on to our base, that was a daylight operation.
DE: Did you bring many prisoners of war back then?
HP: Yeah there was twenty four there, another twenty four the second time and then when we went to Italy there was six where we brought twenty back at a time so [adds up out loud] so that’d be about hundred and eighty blokes coming back.
DE: How does that make you feel that you did that?
HP: It made us feel good because they couldn’t get back other than by sea and going by plane it was a couple of hours so they were really grateful to us but really scared of flying, so we went without our parachutes to prove to them that it was safe to fly [slight laugh]
DE: What state were the POW’s in?
HP: Very poor state, very poor, some of, some of them were being sick but they couldn’t help it because they’d never ever flown before and some had bandages on them where they had broken their limbs, but it felt really good fetching them back.
DE: The other thing I’ve read about, about flights at the end of the war, where you had a sort of tour of Germany and had a look at the bombing, did you do any of those?
HP: No, no I didn’t hear about it though.
DE: I think people called them cook’s tours?
HP: No never heard of it, [pauses] the only time I heard of anybody going around, looking round again is Guy Gibson, I think I told you about that didn’t I? I had a mate, air crew flight engineer, used to on the same sort of ops as we did but I had done a lot more than him, we got very friendly and if we managed to get back we’d go into the pub and exchange stories, and this particular time he was right down in the mouth, he wouldn’t have a drink and I couldn’t get him to talk and I thought he’d got lack of moral fibre and was likely to disappear, so I kept talking to him and in the end he said ‘I’ve been sworn not to say anything ‘, so I said ‘well that’s a bit daft’ I said ‘because we could be not here, on our next op so what does it matter about telling me what you’re on about?’ so he said ‘alright then’ he said ‘you know we’re the last ones to get in the plane after our inspection?’ I said ‘yeah’ he said ‘I was just going up the ladder and this bloke come up to me, pushed me out the way and before I knew it was on the plane’, he said ‘I didn’t know what to do so I pulled the ladder up and went up to my position’, he said ‘and when I got there was this bloke sat in my seat and he just said ‘bugger off down the back’ and I was just about to shout at him when the pilot said’ ‘ssh, it’s Guy Gibson’ he was a squadron leader then, so I shut up and listened to rest went on and he said ‘all the way over when we went on the op he was criticising everybody, the gunners, the navigator wasn’t doing it right, the pilot wasn’t watching this and watching that’ and he said when they got to the target, they went round, dropped the bombs and the idea was you got away quick but Guy Gibson said ‘hang on, go round I want to have a look’ and he made the pilot go round about three times before they flew off back and all on the way back he still criticised them all and he said just as we were coming into land he said ‘I wanna [sic] speak to every member of the crew, I want you to swear an oath that you never saw me in this plane’ and he said ‘it frightened the lives out of all of us’ and that was why he was like he was but anyways he got over that and carried on flying, and I never liked Guy Gibson and when I once went to, I forget where it was, somewhere near Coningsby, which was the end of the runway where they’d got a museum there of what happened with bomber command and one of the fellas there happened to mention something about Guy Gibson and I said ‘I hated him, from what he did to one of my mates’ so he said ‘you’re not the first one to say that’ I said ‘why?’, he said ‘well there was a young pilot who was just about going to take off, walking up to his plane and Guy Gibson happened to be just at the side and he called this pilot over and he said ‘don’t you ever salute your superiors and the pilot said ‘I didn’t know you did that when you’re going off flying’ and he said ‘right, when you come back, you’ll be reduced in rank’, reduced him down to sergeant from a pilot officer, he said and that’s why he didn’t like Guy Gibson, but strange nobody liked him not on the squadron he was at and there was once when we come back from ops, we went into the pub and all of a sudden there was a shout and everybody saying ‘wahey’ and I said ‘is that the end of the war, have we finished?’ and somebody said ‘no, Guy Gibson’s caught the bucket’, in other words he’d gone down and that was where he’d gone off with some, I think it was mosquitos he was flying and on the way back instead of keeping with them, he spotted a train and he decided to go down and shoot this train up, and the story we heard was that one of the guards on the train had a rifle and he fired at Guy Gibson’s plane and a million to one chance he hit the fuel tank and it blew up and he went in, but that was all hushed up, they gave another story about why he was shot down.
De: What was the other story?
HP: I forget what it was but he was coming back and he was with the two other mosquitos and he was unlucky that got a shot that hit his plane and down he went, but we believed the first story, no he was never liked at all.
DE: Why was that do you think, was that just his attitude?
HP: His attitude to everybody, he was the king and he was the one who knew everything.
DE: Was there a lot of discipline or difference between people with officers and sergeants?
HP: There was some, I wouldn’t say a lot, but often when people were sergeants and they were made up to officers, that’s when you got a bit of flack, ‘cause I always remember after the war there was something happening and all crews were going to this place, I forget where it was, and I’d been issued with medals and I’d got the air crew Europe and star, because I had actually flown before my crew had so I come under that particular section and my pilot who’d got the DFC on behalf of crew co-operation, we never got anything so we were a bit bitter about that but I happened to spot my pilot and I went up to him to shake hands and say ‘how you doing?’ and the first thing he said to me, ‘how is it you got that?’ I said ‘what?’ he said ‘the air crew Europe and star? I’ve only got the air crew Europe’, I said ‘that’s because I flew before you’ and he weren’t very pleased and just walked off, never even spoke to me, so that sort of thing did happen.
DE: Was there a difference between people who were flying before the war and people who were volunteer reserve?
HP: Not really no, they were all doing the same thing.
DE: So how long did you stay in the RAF for?
HP: I think it was about seven or eight years, all told [sic]
DE: So what did you fly after the war?
HP: It was Lancaster’s and Lincoln’s, that was at Waddington, and did I tell you about the story of taking a photo of a, a Lincoln bomber? well when the Lincoln’s come onto the squadron, I was thinking about this and I thought to myself ‘it’d be marvellous , a Lincoln bomber flying over Lincoln Cathedral’, sounded good and I said this to my pilot and he said ‘yeah that sounds good’, he said ‘if you could get it organised ‘cause I’d had more experience than this new pilot, so I said to the photographer who used to unofficially do our photographs for us, I told him about this, he said ‘that would be marvellous, if you get me on the plane’, so I spoke to another pilot and we all agreed that we’d do this, we’d be in a plane with the photographer and another plane in the Lincoln would fly over Lincoln Cathedral but he happened to be late on take-off, the Lincoln pilot, and he came in a bit late, but because he was late he went flying too low and he went below the cathedral so anyways we got the photo of this, got back on the ground and I said ‘I’m going up to the photographer’s to see how he’s getting on’, so when I got there, he said ‘oh come in’ he said ‘a fabulous picture, Lincoln bomber flying below Lincoln Cathedral’ he said ‘it’s absolutely marvellous’ and he’d put the either negatives or something on a drum which used to go round to dry these photographs and just as he was doing this the group captain came in, inspected and he said ‘what are you two up to?’, ‘nothing, sir’ saluted him and out came this picture and he looked at it, he said ‘good God are you trying to get me demoted?’ he said ‘that’s illegal [emphasis], where is the negative?’ so the photographer was dead scared gave him the negative, he ripped it up and he ripped the photograph up and he said ‘you deserve to be on a charge, you two’ and he stormed off , and just as he stormed off the second picture came out and I grabbed hold of it and put it in my battle dress and the photographer said ‘you can’t do that!’, I said ‘I’ve done it, cheers’ and I kept this right the way till the end of the war and when I came out and I got friendly with a photographer, can’t remember his name now, of the Echo and he got to hear where I was working at Thorne electrical wholesalers and he phoned me up and said could he come in and see me so I said ‘what for?’, he said ‘I’d like to have a chat with you’ and in my office ‘cause I was a manager, I had a big picture up of the Lancaster and anybody who used to come in to see me said ‘that’s a super picture, why have you got that in an electrical wholesalers?’, because I said ‘I was in them’ and I used to get in with these people who used to come flogging you things for the electrical side, so he came in and he saw this picture, he said ‘that’s marvellous’, I said ‘I got a better one than that’ and he asked me questions like you have about me war record and he said ‘can you fetch that picture in to me?’ and I said ‘yeah I can fetch it in but I don’t want to let go’ so he said ‘OK’ he said ‘I’ll have a word with the editor and see if we can publish it’, so a couple of days later he rang me up at work and said I’ve got some sad news, he said the editor said it’s on RAF paper, it’s illegal photograph and he said it couldn’t be published until say twenty five years until that time had expired so he said ‘but I’m keeping it on file’, so I said ‘Ok then’ he said ‘I’ve got a copy of it and I’ll let you have that back’ and I got a copy in the bedroom I’ll let you have a look, and I suppose about twenty years afterwards he rang me up at work and he said ‘do you get the Lincoln Echo?’, I said ‘now and again’, he said ‘well buy it today’ so I did, front page was this picture, that marvellous picture and no end of people wanted to know how I took this and I told them and as I say I can show you the actual photograph, but this group captain, did I tell you about him who lived across the way? When I got a puncture outside his house? [DE: yes you told me but it’s not on the tape] Oh I was going one Sunday to get the Sunday paper and just as I got near this group captains house, I didn’t know he was a group captain, something went wrong with the car and I got out and I found I got a puncture and I jacked the car up, tried to get the wheel off but do you think I can undo those nuts, just couldn’t do it, and this young fella come strolling over and he said ‘I can help you there, I’m a younger fella than you’ so I said ‘oh thank you’ and he did everything, put the old one in the boot and put the new one in pumped it up, I said ‘oh thanks very much’ so he said ‘I hear you was in the war, in the RAF, is that right?’ I said ‘yes, I was flight engineer’, he said ‘did you do any ops? I said ‘yeah, I did thirty nine all told [sic] and had a mid-air collision at East Kirkby’ he said ‘good God and you’re still here’ [laughs] I said ‘yeah’, then he put out his hand and said ‘well done, I’m a squadron leader’ no he was a wing commander then, ‘I’m a wing commander’ so I said ‘well fancy that, that’s a new one ain’t [sic] it?, a wing commander changing the wheel of a warrant officer [slight laugh], it’s never been known’ and he laughed and he said ‘can I come across and see you?, where do you live?’ I said ‘just across from you’ so a few days later he came over and like you he sat there and he said ‘have you still got your log book?’, because you’re not supposed to have had it really but most people did and I said ‘yeah’, he said ‘can I have a look at it’ and he went through it and he said ‘I can’t believe you’re still here’ [laughs] and he said ‘there’s going to be a do at Petwood hotel’, I forget what it’s called but I can show you what it’s called up here [pause – background noise, moves to collect something] it’s called the memorial dinner, 3rd of July 2009 and there would be all top ranking officers there and these officers either had the girlfriends or their wives there and it was a fabulous dinner because lots of companies had donated money, they didn’t have Petwood hotel chefs they had the, what do they call those top chefs?, I’ve forgotten what they call them at the moment but they did the dinner, wish I could remember the names, you see them on television sometimes, very top chefs, somebody had arranged to have all the drinks so everything was free there and it was marvellous, and half way through, a fella got up and he was a famous painter, don’t know if you’ve ever seen a big elephant, I forget the name, what it was called but he was there and he said ‘gentlemen and ladies’ he said ‘I’ve asked the squadron leader if he would auction those three paintings that I’ve donated to the RAF because my heart is felt with the RAF for what they did during the war’, so the squadron leader got up and the first two paintings went for fifteen hundred pounds each, the last one went for two and a half thousand pounds, so it was smashing all donated to the RAF, and I thought I’ll have to go up and get his signature this fella and I went up and there was a couple of people in front of me and it was funny because one of the group captains wives was there with all her gold and chains on her, and she turned round to me and she said ‘oh’, she saw me medals and she said ‘you were in the RAF were you during the war?’ I said ’yes, that’s what these are for’ she said ‘what did you do?’ I said ‘I was a flight engineer on Lancaster’s and I did thirty nine ops’ she said ‘good God can I kiss you?’ [laughs] I said ‘if you wish’ [laughs], she kissed me and she said ‘thank you very much’ she said ‘if it wasn’t for people like you we wouldn’t be here having this do’ so I said ‘oh thank you’ and they gave us one of those, [DE: the mug] also a book of Lancaster’s and spitfires in it, it’s fabulous and then I suppose a couple of months after that, he rang up here and he said ‘would you like to come over?’, so I said ‘yes’ went to his door, he said ‘come in, I want to show you this’ and he showed me his hat and his lapels on his suit and he said ‘I’ve been promoted to group captain’ so I shook his hand and said ‘well done’ and he said ‘we’re having a do at’, he said ‘I’m at bomber command headquarters at the moment now’ he said ‘but I’ve come home for the weekend to show the wife me promotion’ he said ‘so when I go back I want to take you with me to bomber command headquarters and have a big dinner there’, did I tell you about that? So he said ‘have you still got your uniform?’ I said ‘you’re joking its seventy years ago now’, he said ‘well you need to have a dress suit’ so I said ‘well I haven’t even got that’ never even thought about it, so he said ‘well I’ll leave you to it, see if you can get one quick’ and he said by such and such a date, he said ‘I’ll be taking you down with me’, so at that moment my wife wanted to go to Matalans and my son said ‘I’ll come along with you I might see something I want’ ‘cause it’s a bit cheaper buying stuff there so we walked round and my wife brought a few skirts and things, and my son said to me ‘you wanted a dress suit didn’t you?’ he said ‘come and have a look at this’, and they had some dress suits that they were selling off cheaper so I worked out my size, tried a jacket on and it fitted so I said ‘I’ll buy this’ and instead of paying a couple of hundred pound I got one for about forty five quid so I thought that was really good and, I rang him up then, I said ‘I’ve got a dress suit now’ and I said ‘do I need to have me medals put on?’ he said ‘yes’ he said ‘if you bring it across, my wife will stitch them on for you’ so that was good, so did all that, she made some sandwiches and we went all the way down to High Wycombe, when I got there I’ve never seen so many high ranking officers, because I was only a warrant officer, I didn’t really know where to put myself so he said ‘I’m going to take you round’, he said ‘cause I got to do some work’ he said ‘but I’ll come back for you at seven o’clock, be dressed up with your medals on and we’re go and have a drink first with some of the officers, then we’ll go in for the dinner’ so I thought ‘lovely’, so picked me up at seven o’clock, I was put in an officer quarters so that was nice, went down to where they had the bar, had a few drinks and a lot of these top officers had never been on ops at all and they started asking me questions so that was good, and then he said ‘it’s time now to go in to our table’, and all along the top table, group captain was there, I was sat at the side of him and a nice WAF squadron leader at the side of me and we started off with this dinner and then he said ‘we’ve got to drink to the Queen’ and what is coming round is port and there was a great big jug like that of port so I went to grab hold of this big glass to pour mine out and he ‘aaah no you mustn’t touch it, it’s only touched by the squadron leader coming round, its part of the system that we have’ so they poured these glasses out and went all the way round and it was all silver service, you never see anything like it and then, a little while through, air vice marshal got up and he said ‘Gentlemen’, [clap clap] he said ‘I’d like to tell you there’s an interesting person with us tonight and I’d like to speak about him’ and I looked round and I thought maybe the Duke of Edinburgh were there but by the time I turned back he said ‘his name’s ex warrant officer Harry Parkins’ and he said ‘he did one of the longest bombing trips in the war from East Kirkby where they had to top up at the take off point, they went all the way down to Italy to fool the Germans, came all the way back up again to bomb Munich and on the way back his gunner a New Zealander’, no an Australian said ‘Harry we’re going to lose a day of our leave or maybe more if we land down south where we’d been told to go because we might not have enough fuel to get anywhere else’ so he said ‘can you work out the fuel, Harry?’, I said ‘yes’, there was no computers in those days, and I worked it out and I said ‘if there was a sunny morning we’d just about make it’ he said ‘so all the crew said ‘go for it, Harry’ so we did and we landed at East Kirkby on a nice sunny morning and all the engines chopped at the end of the runway’ and he said ‘gentlemen that took ten hours twenty five minutes, the longest that had ever been done in a Lancaster bomber and a hundred and sixty officers got up and gave me a two minute ovation, I didn’t know where to put myself or what to say but I got up and said ‘it wasn’t me gentlemen, it was the crew’, so we carried on with the dinner, and that was really was smashing and then he brought me all the way back home, stayed there about three nights, and one lunchtime, he said ‘I’ll tell you when to come in’, went in at a particular time and there was two other pilots sat with him, we were having your dinner and you could pick almost anything you wanted and it was a Friday so I said I’ll have fish and chips and they all had the same, they all did the same [laughs] and one of these pilots said to me ‘as a flight engineer did you ever do any flying yourself?’ I said ‘oh yes, we had training in a link trainer’ and up to a point I’d never flown a Lancaster but my pilot was a sergeant and then he was promoted to a pilot officer and he went out celebrating that night, and next night we were on flying, on ops and he was still under the weather so went through the briefing, never said much but felt a bit hazy like, he said ‘I’m going to take off Harry’ and I’m sat at the side of him and he said ‘you can do the rest’ I said ‘what do you mean?’, he said ‘ well you’ve had training on the link trainer’ he said I’m going back and having a sleep and you can carry on’, so I flew I think it was about two and a half hours to the bombing target and the bit that amused me most was when they were saying ‘left a bit, left a bit, right’ ‘till we got over the target, bombs away, turn round and on the way back and on the way back, I didn’t feel like doing the landing myself ‘cause I’d never done anything like that so I went back and woke him up and he came up and did the landing, so that was my time of having, flying the Lancaster myself, I didn’t do anymore that was the only time, but I felt quite proud about it and luckily we got back OK.
DE: Well that’s amazing, you mentioned the story of your ten hours twenty five minutes, is there any significance about it being a sunny day?
HP: Yeah because if it had been dark, you might have had to go round the circuit, to get your bearings for coming in, being a sunny day you could just go straight in, no need to go round the circuit, no other plane were likely to be flying there. I told you about the group captain coming in, yeah? So that was another good story.
DE: Smashing, I’m going to press stop there, that’s another hour and a half that, thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Parkins. Two
Identifier
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AParkinsHW150612
Date
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2015-06-12
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Emma Bonson
Sally Coulter
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:29:35 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Harry shares several memories of his time as a flight engineer in the Royal Air Force. He describes their initial accommodation in luxury London flats, and dinghy training at the local swimming pool. He recounts how in June 1944 they received 17 bullets in their aircraft on an operation to Wesseling but managed to return safely, also discussing lucky charms and superstition.
Anecdotes include a low flying incident near Skegness for which they were in trouble with the group captain, and the issue of guns and ammunition when some German prisoners escaped. They lost their possessions to the Committee of Adjustment when they were diverted to another airfield.
Harry received army-type training at RAF Bridlington and continued his flight engineering training on Stirlings at RAF St Athan. He was sent to RAF East Kirkby on Lancasters.
Harry collected prisoners of war from Italy and Brussels. He describes people’s recollections of Guy Gibson.
He stayed for seven or so years in the RAF, flying Lancasters and Lincolns at RAF Waddington. Harry relates the delayed publication of a photograph, with a Lincoln and Lincoln cathedral.
Harry outlines his encounter with a group captain who helped him to change his wheel, subsequently inviting him to dinners at the Petwood Hotel and Bomber Command headquarters. Harry received a two minute standing ovation for one of the longest bombing trips of the war.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany
Germany--Wesseling
England--Woodhall Spa
England--Lincoln
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
fear
flight engineer
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lincoln
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
RAF Bridlington
RAF East Kirkby
RAF St Athan
RAF Waddington
searchlight
Stirling
superstition
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/277/3430/PIronsH1501.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/277/3430/AIronsH160730.1.mp3
85d919719d33d75444cec9637cafc6f9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Irons, Harry
Harry Irons
H Irons
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Harry Irons (1924 - 2018). He was an apprentice tailor in London, but lied about his age and joined the RAF aged 16. He flew operations as a rear gunner with 158, 462 and 9 Squadrons.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-23
2016-07-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Irons, H
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
TO: I just have to do a short introduction first as well.
HI: Yeah.
TO: Good morning. Good afternoon. Or good evening. Whatever the case is. This interview is being filmed for the International Bomber Command Centre and the gentleman I’m interviewing is Mr Harry Irons. My name’s Thomas Ozel and we’re recording this interview on the 30th of July. Could you please tell me what year you were born?
HI: 1924.
TO: And –
HI: January ’24.
TO: And where — were you interested in aircraft as a child?
HI: No. Not really. No. You never see no aircraft anyway [laughs] in those days. The reason why I joined the air force because we lived in a place called Stamford Hill which was on a hill in London. And we had a grandstand view of the bombing of the City of London which was well alight. And four or five of us said we’ll go and join the air force. I was only sixteen. I told them I was seventeen and a half and they, and they didn’t even query me age. And they said, ‘Alright. You’re in the air force.’ And that was it. I was just sixteen. They assessed me and they said, ‘What do you want to be?’ I said, ‘I want to be a pilot.’ And they said, ‘We’ve got a hell of a load of applications for pilots but we’ve got vacancies for wireless operator/air gunners.’ So I said, ‘Alright. I’ll have that,’ and I became a wireless operator/air gunner. And I joined the air force in nineteen — the end of 1940. And the following year — I had to wait for an application to become a wireless operator. Well, I was in the RAF and I went to Blackpool in August 1941 and while we was there we got to twelve words a minute and they got us out on a squadron and said, ‘You’re not going to be wireless operators you’re going to be what they call straight AG’s. Rear gunners. So that’s how I became a rear gunner. So I waited a few more months and then I was posted for gunnery school. A place called Manby. RAF Manby in Lincoln. And I done six weeks training there and we should do another three or four months training at OTU which I’d never done. They sent me straight from the six weeks gunnery school straight onto a squadron. Number 9 Squadron at Waddington. And when I arrived there I was sitting in the mess, because I was a sergeant then, I was sitting in the mess and when I came out the mess there was a flight lieutenant pilot there and he said, ‘You’re going to fly with me as a mid-upper gunner.’ Because what had happened the squadron had converted from Wellingtons on to Lancasters and Lancasters carried an extra gunner and a flight engineer. So there I was at 9 Squadron in May, no, June 1942 and we were just converting, just finished converting from Wellingtons, the twin engine bomber on to Lancasters. And that’s how it started and what we had to do was get used to flying a four engine bomber which we did do, and in September we were sitting in the crew room and they said, ‘Ops tomorrow night.’ And that was in September the 9th 1942. I got that right. And so what you have to do is take the aircraft up for half an hour. Test the engines, make sure they’re running right. The bomb bay opens and closes. The bomb sight’s working. The guns are working. The ailerons are working and the undercarriage is working. You do that in half hours flight. When we landed the bomb aimer had already done about seventeen trips on Wellingtons so he was an old sweat. To do seventeen bombing trips he was really a real veteran. And as we landed there was a big tractor come along pulling up a four thousand pounder and fourteen hundred incendiaries. So the bomb aimer said to me, ‘That load means that we’re going to Happy Valley.’ And I was pretty, well I didn’t know a lot anyway. So I thought well that doesn’t sound too bad. Happy Valley. And there you are. We got briefed. We went, we always had bacon and eggs before we went to the briefing. We had the briefing and that and when we went into the briefing room there was a huge curtain over the map and we were waiting there. The CO comes in, immediately pulls the curtain down and it shows you exactly what bombing raid was on. There’s a red tape running from England to the — and the town was Dusseldorf. So I still didn’t twig on a lot so the bomb aimer was there. He said, ‘I told you,’ he said, ‘We’re going to Happy Valley.’ And I thought well it don’t sound too bad. Happy Valley. And we went down to the crew room. Got dressed. And being gunners we have to be heavily heavily dressed. There was pure silk long johns and a vest. And your shirt, uniform and a huge fisherman’s pullover we used to put on. Then we put the electrically heated suit on. Is that alright?
TO: Do you mind if I just put this light on? Sorry.
HI: Put that light on.
TO: Yes. I’m very sorry but — sorry about that.
HI: How’s that?
TO: Yes. That’s better — sorry half your face is in shadow. Sorry. Ok. Sorry you were.
HI: Oh that’s only the, I’ll switch that one on as well.
TO: Switch that on.
HI: Yeah. Switch that on as well.
TO: Ok sorry about that.
HI: So we got dressed and then we had huge heavy furs. Fur jacket and fur trousers on top. The temperatures in those days was about thirty five, forty below zero. We had no heating whatsoever. And we went out to the aircraft and the ritual was we always pissed on the rear wheel for good luck. Anyway, we got in the aircraft and we was at Waddington. And they had no runways there. All they had was grass. And even on my first trip with this bomb load on we just managed to lift off over the, over the hedges to take off. And then we got, we, we flew around the aerodrome until we got up to six or seven thousand feet and then we headed east. We crossed the North Sea and then the bomb aimer who lays in the front, lays flat down at the front said, ‘Enemy coast ahead. Flak.’ So we was up about sixteen thousand feet then. Mind you this pilot was a very seasoned pilot. He was on his second tour so he knew all the tricks and he knew that to get over Holland you had to be above twelve thousand feet because of the light flak. There was hundreds of these light flak guns on the Frisian Islands what we had to pass over. Anyway, we was well above it and I looked down. I see these beautiful colours. Blues, greens, reds. Tracer coming up and dropping down and I thought to myself if that’s flak we’ve got nothing at all to worry about. We was well above it. We flew across Holland. We was up to about nineteen, twenty thousand feet then. We flew across Holland. We never see a lot. Only a few star shells and a few lights on the ground for the night fighters who used to circle around waiting to come after us. Anyway, we crossed over Holland into Germany and then the bomb aimer said, ‘Target ahead skipper.’ And I thought to myself, ‘Well, I’ll have a little see what this target’s like. And being the mid-upper you could swing the turret a hundred and twenty degrees all the way around. So I swung it around facing the forward position and I had a shock of my life. In front of us was one huge massive explosion of shells. And I thought to myself, ‘Cor blimey, surely we haven’t got to go through that.’ There was hundreds of shells exploding. You’d see aircraft blowing up in the sky, some on fire. And the skipper said to me, being on me first trip, he said, ‘Mid-upper make sure you look above you and there’s no aircraft flying above you ready to drop its bombs.’ Which did happen. And a lot of our aircraft were badly damaged through aircraft dropping their incendiaries and bombs from a different height. Anyway, we, I said to the skipper, as I looked up there was a Lancaster above us with its bomb bay open. The bomb bay was enormous. It’s about from that there to about here. That’s the length of the bomb bay. It was enormous. And I said to the skipper, ‘There’s a Lanc above us with its bomb bay open. Dive port.’ He dived port, straightened out and started flying again towards the huge barrage and the bomb aimer said, ‘We’re on the wrong course.’ He said, ‘We’ve got to go around again and make another approach to the target.’ Because the most important thing on a bombing raid was to bring back a photograph. If you didn’t bring a photograph back they never counted for it as a raid. The camera was enormous. Like that. Huge thing it was. Anyway, we run. We went right through that lot with our bomb bays shut. Turned around, made what they called a dog leg and come back on the rear of the formations that were flying in and by that time Jerry had cottoned on to us. And don’t forget, another terror of bombing was the searchlights. If one of those searchlights hit you it completely blinded you. They were so powerful. They had what they called a radar operated searchlight and that was blue. It wasn’t white like the ordinary searchlights. It was blue. And it never missed. It went bang, like that and it hit you straight away and once that hit you about ten or fifteen searchlights would come and cone you. And then all the guns would open up and the fighter would come straight in on top of you. So you had to very very wary of a searchlight. Anyway, we made the dogleg around. Came and we was at the back of the bomber formation then and we could see, I could see from where I was the town was getting a real hammering. At that time, that period, there was no Pathfinders. That’s why we had to go around again — because we had to select our own target and bring a photograph back, more or less on that area. It did, when the Pathfinders was formed it did make bombing, not easier, but we could get in and all we had to then with the Pathfinders was bomb the flare. We didn’t have to look for a specified target. We just bombed the flare. Go in, bomb the flare, slam your door shut, dive and get out quick. And you had to get out quick believe me. And we made our approach around and we made the bombing run and, once ‘cause this was my first trip and I was amazed. Directly we dropped the bombs we went up like a lift because the weight, the huge weight of the bombs being dropped suddenly the aircraft went up four or five hundred feet. Anyway, we slammed the, we slammed the bomb bay doors shut and then we, what we used to do was either go port or starboard, dive down and get enough speed as we could to get away from the target. Anyway, as we’re coming home, and this was on my first trip, as we were coming home the bomb aimer and the wireless operator said, ‘We can’t breathe. We’ve got no oxygen.’ Apparently the shrapnel had come through, which it always did and cut the leads from the oxygen bottles to the line to where they were breathing. Anyway, so we had to go to below ten thousand feet and then we could take our oxygen masks off and breathe normal. And as we passed over the Dutch coast which we’d seen coming in, beautiful coloured lights. I had the shock of my life. These shells were whipping past us. I’ve never seen anything like it. How they never hit us I don’t know. There was hundreds of them. All coming up. Anyway, we got over the Dutch coast, the Frisian Islands it was and made our way home, and landed. Had a look at the aircraft which always had shrapnel holes in the aircraft. Always. And we landed and I thought, that’s it, that’s one trip. I’ve got another twenty nine to do. And I mean by twenty nine means you had to bring back a picture. If you didn’t bring back a picture it didn’t count as a trip so you did it again. So instead of doing thirty you had to do did thirty one, thirty two or whatever. How many pictures you missed. And that was my first. First raid and it shook the life out of me. I never realised what it was to go all that way and the fantastic bombardment of German guns was incredible. And you had to be careful even then, coming home, because they had what they called radar operated guns on the way and they were so accurate. They never missed. Even at twenty thousand feet they could hit you as easy as anything. So you just used to do a little gentle weave to keep, well to help you to keep out of the radar. That was my first trip. We went down. We had the usual bacon and eggs, cup of coffee. Told them what we’d seen and went to kip. And the next morning we woke up and we was on bombing raid again. I should bring, I’d better bring my logbook down I think.
TO: If you want. Yeah.
HI: Yeah. Two seconds. How’s it going?
TO: Can you just sit back down again sorry. The lighting seems ok actually. Yeah. I think you’ll be alright.
HI: Alright.
TO: Yeah. Sure. You sure you don’t want me to help you get it?
HI: No. I’ll go and get it. Don’t worry.
[recording paused]
HI: I should have put exactly what was happening in my logbook but the reason why I never done that as you see. That was my first trip.
TO: Dusseldorf.
HI: Dusseldorf. And I put target found and bombed.
TO: Yeah.
HI: And the officer, he said, ‘Don’t start putting down what you done and what you didn’t.’ Just put down the target.
TO: Wilhelmshaven.
HI: Yeah. See.
TO: Bremen.
HI: And then two days later, which was the following day we went to Bremen. That was where they was building the submarines. How’s that? Is that alright?
TO: That’s a lot better. Thank you.
HI: Yeah. They was building the submarines there and we gave them the right goings. Mind the flak was absolutely horrendous there in Bremen. And believe it or not the following night we went to Wilhelmshaven. The other submarine base where they was building the submarines. And the biggest, the biggest thing at all about bombing was the flak. It was absolutely, and it was terrifying. I’ll tell you that. It was absolutely terrifying. The night fighters you never see until they hit you and we was useless really. We had only 303 calibre machine guns and the Germans had twenty millimetre cannons and we didn’t stand a chance. Never stood a chance. And the thing that done us, that the Germans brought out a simple, unique thing of placing two cannons behind the pilot on the JU88 and the M10 and all they used to do was pick you up on the radar. Drop down two or three hundred feet. Then come up underneath and go straight for the petrol tank. At first they used to go for the actual aircraft but a lot of those aircraft had bombs on board and they’d line up the fighter as well. So what they had done they used to come up underneath and they could see from the fire from the exhaust, the engines and they had a beautiful view of the petrol tank. They used to give it one quick squirt and the bomber would just used to literally blow up in the sky. I mean literally. Literally blow right up in the sky. That’s why we got thirty thousand names at Runnymede. We don’t know what happened to them.
TO: Did you ever actually see that happen on a Lancaster?
HI: I see it, yes. I see, well actually, didn’t actually see the fighter hitting the Lanc but we used to see the, see the bombers blowing up and we didn’t know why. There was no flak. All you used to see was a huge explosion and up it went. And that went on. We lost hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of bombers. But the thing that annoyed me the RAF knew what was going on. They knew what was going on and not once did they ever warn us about this method of attack. Never. ‘Cause before all we expected was them to attack the rear. The rear turret. They always went for the rear turret and before they got this idea of coming up underneath. And they literally shot down hundreds and hundreds of our bombers and not once at any briefing did they warn us that we were being attacked from underneath and it went right on ‘til the end of the war when the Air Ministry admitted that’s what the Germans were doing. They never warned us. And the only reason that I think why they never warned us is because they wanted us to fly straight and level because if we’d had known what was happening we’d have weaved our way right the way through. We could have at least seen what was coming up underneath us. But we never knew. And we lost thousands of bombers over there, and that went right on till the end of the war. All those boys were lost. Yeah.
TO: Do you mind if we talk for a bit about your time before joining the RAF?
HI: Well I didn’t have a lot of time really. I was only a kid. I told you I joined when I was sixteen and I was an apprenticed tailor because living in the East End you had two jobs. You either became a tailor or a cabinet maker. You done your apprentice and that was the two main employers in the East End was tailoring and cabinet making. And I was just, I worked for a firm called Polikoff’s. A huge firm. I was apprentice there ‘til I got, till I was called up. Well, ‘til I joined the air force. And the reason I joined the air force really as well the firm I worked for got badly bombed. And one morning we went to work and there was hardly any bloody factory left. But it’s, it was a terrible, terrible time. When you think that in 1943 the average, average length of time for a bomber crew was five trips. But I carried on. I don’t know why I carried on. Why I seemed to miss it all but there you are. But I know that the RAF knew about this underneath attack because I finished my first tour. I done about, thirty — actually I done thirty nine trips on my first tour. That was because we couldn’t bring back the photograph on nine trips. So they didn’t count. And I went as an instructor instructing air crew coming back from Canada and America and Rhodesia. They was raw. Raw kids and they, you know, they had the shock of their life when they came back to England and had to fly on these terrible misty days and nights. We lost a lot of blokes killed through lack of experience. And we had to bloody well fly with them as well. Anyway, after a while they said you’re being posted back to operations and they posted me to 77 Squadron at Full Sutton in Yorkshire and when I arrived there the CO, when I arrived they said, ‘The CO wants to see you.’ So I thought, hello. I was a warrant officer then. And I went down to the office and he asked me to come in the car. We went out to the Halifax and the Halifax had a big hole in the fuselage underneath and there was a .5 been placed there. And the CO said, ‘When you go on the bombing raid you’ll be sitting there and if any aircraft come up underneath you’ll have a good view of the aircraft coming up underneath you. So therefore they knew what was going on. And we took it to a [pause] I think it was Duisburg I think.
[pause]
Yeah. Took it too Duisburg on a daylight. That was on the 14th. That was on my second tour. And I took it to Duisberg and it was so bloody cold. They made a great big hole in the bottom of the aircraft and the cold air was coming through. Not only us but the pilot, the navigator. They was frozen and they never used it no more. What they should have done was put a proper turret, enclosed turret underneath. All they had was a bloody big hole. All the slipstream used to come through the aircraft and it was impossible really enough to fly with it. Anyway, they never used it no more. Just carried on as we did. Anyway, that was on my second tour on Halifaxes. But where were we? Some very interesting raids here. Right. Went to Dusseldorf on the 13th of the 9th I think it was.
TO: Yeah.
HI: The 13th of the 9th and then on the 13th of the 9th we went to Bremen after submarines. And that was very heavily defended. And when we got back we went in bed. They said, ‘You’ve got to get up early because they’re a night flying test for tonight’s raid,’ which was on the 14th. We’d already been. We’d already just come back from Bremen. On the 14th we went to a place called Wilhelmshaven. And it was the same thing. They was producing all the submarines. And it was very important at that time because the submarines were sinking most of our ships. So they had to blast. And they did blast it. And on the 16th we went to the worst, worst place you could possibly go to. Essen. Essen was the worst place in Germany for flak and fighters and we lost literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of bombers over Essen. There was a major Krupps factory there and that’s what we was after. We destroyed it eventually but it took a while. And we lost a hell of a hell of a lot of men.
[phone ringing]
TO: You can answer the phone. That’s fine.
HI: Ok. I won’t be –
[recording paused]
HI: That Memorial is exactly where we took off at Waddington. That was at the end of the runway but that Memorial was right bang in the middle where we took off from our aircraft’s runways. As we took off, right in front of us was the — right in front of us was the Cathedral and that is where the Memorial is now. Yeah.
TO: Sorry, you mentioned you’d been on raids to Bremen and Wilhelmshaven.
HI: Yeah.
TO: Did you actually find out the damage to the submarines you were causing?
HI: Yeah. We actually, we’d done a hell of a lot of damage there. Especially at Bremen. Apparently they really wrecked the submarine bays, well not the bases, where they was actually producing the submarines. And that’s why we went back the following night to hit Wilhelmshaven because they were sinking so many of our ships. It did slow them down a bit. How much I don’t know. But we did make two successful raids there. Because we could tell that by the photographs we brought back. Of the actual bombing. As the bombs went the camera ticks over and the photoflash was in the fuselage. It was a huge, like a huge drainpipe and that was released exactly the same time as the camera clicks over. And it was a big white burst of light that lit up the area where the camera was pointing. And you could see all these photoflashes going off on your bombing run. Apart from all the bloody aircraft that was on fire going down. Yeah. Which was many many many. Yeah. The thing that they used to kid us. They did used to kid us. We used to say we seen so many bombers going down. They said, ‘No you never.’ This was a bloke who’s never flown in his life said, ‘No, you never. What you see was Scarecrows.’ The Germans were firing up shells to mimic a bomber blowing up. And after the war they admitted there was no such thing as a Scarecrow. All those explosions were actually aircraft blowing up in the sky. And they did used to blow up as well. Yeah. Especially with a bomb load on. I think I was very very very fortunate to, to do one tour instead. And then I went on another tour. And I never, never really got myself in any trouble at all. We used to see them going down. And anyway we went to Essen and that was the worst. That is the worst place ever to go. Essen.
TO: Worse than Berlin?
HI: I think it was worse than Berlin. Yeah. Worse than Berlin. Yeah. The amount of guns there was incredible. And the amount of fighters. But that Berlin, when they done the Berlin raid they’d done, they lost nine hundred. Nine hundred bombers, didn’t they? In that period of about six weeks. They didn’t care. Anyway, on the 14th of the 9th we went to Munich. And what actually happened — on my squadron we was losing a lot of aircraft. Even at that period it was a hell of a lot of aircraft. And two fellas come down from Cambridge. They said they were scientists and said, ‘We’ve got a new device we’re going to put in the turret. And when a German night fighter approaches you from about six hundred yards away you’ll get a red light come up in your turret warning you there’s a fighter in the vicinity.’ Which was brilliant because what we could then was start weaving and not fly straight and level. Anyway, but what happened, the squadron on the raid previous to Munich two of our boys were shot down and apparently the Germans, they went for all these aircraft and must have found this instrument in the rear turret and they probably got the wavelength of it. And this is what happened. We went to Munich and we flew, ten tenths cloud all the way so we flew on top of the cloud. If a fighter came we just went straight in the cloud. We was pretty much safe. Not from flak but from the fighter. Anyway, we got to Munich and the cloud broke and there was Munich wide open. Beautiful moon and we did give it an hiding. Apparently Hitler was there giving a little talk. That’s why we went there. On the way back the skipper said, ‘We know our course back home so we’re going to fly ten tenths through the cloud all the way home so we won’t be interrupted by fighters.’ We went for about three quarters of an hour, an hour through ten tenths cloud and all of a sudden the cloud broke and I looked through the, I was in the rear turret then, I looked through the turret and there, from just where my car is was a JU88 had been following us through that cloud. And it must have been through their radar. And he opened fired and we was going, when you say flying straight and level you’re like going up and down as well. You know. Anyway, as we went down he opened fired and he just, his cannon shells went just over the top of us. We never hesitated and we couldn’t miss him. He was right bang — you could see his face even. We just opened fire. Me and the mid-upper opened fired. He swung over and down he went. That was one of my luckiest occasions I’d ever known. I’d only done about six trips and then we came back and that was it. But that’s how lucky you had to be. How he never, how he missed us I still don’t know. It was point blank range and his cannon shells went just over the top of us. Yeah.
TO: Do you think maybe he might have been low on fuel?
HI: No. I don’t think he was low on fuel. He was — I should imagine, when you say you’re flying straight and level you do but you’re going like that. Up and down like that sort of with the turbulence of the slipstream. And probably as we went down he opened fire and missed us. But we never missed. We hit him. We couldn’t miss him. He was right bang — oh he couldn’t have been no closer.
TO: So was he shot down?
HI: He went down, yeah. Yeah. We couldn’t claim it because we couldn’t verify whether he, whether he exploded on the ground or not because we went back in cloud again then. The cloud broke, we went back in to it again and came home.
TO: So you were in the mid-upper turret at this point.
HI: No. I was in the rear turret. And me and the mid-upper open fired. Yeah. I was only in the mid-upper for the first trip. Just to get used to the, to the, what the bombing raid was. The rear turret was manned by an Australian but he was very very tall and he had a bit of difficulty in the rear turret so he went into the mid-upper after the second raid and I took over in the rear turret. I wasn’t this size. I was only about nine stone then. And but he was a big tall Australian. He was too big for them. And that’s how we carried on. And after Munich we went to a place called Wismar. Am I alright?
TO: No. It’s just there’s a fly buzzing around. That’s all.
HI: A fly. I must have no flies in here, you know [pause] We went to a place called Wismar. They had a big Condor factory there and it was our job to attack this factory which was specified that it was a factory we had to bomb. There was still, you must remember there was no Pathfinders then. And we went in and I think we made a direct hit but unfortunately two of our aircraft that was with us were shot down over Wismar. So that was unfortunate. And then from Wismar there was September. 23rd of September [pause] The thing was with Bomber Command life was expendable. They didn’t care what the losses were. They’d just sent us out and sent us out and sent us out. Well, strangely enough this Wismar was a seven twenty hour trip. So we went there on the 23rd of the 9th and we had a little rest. And then on then on the 1st of the 10th we went back to Wismar again. They said go back and make sure it’s flattened. Which we did do. And then the following night, believe it or not, we’d already done a seven twenty hour trip. The following night we went to Essen. And on the way to Essen two of the engines on the starboard side shut off so, yeah the flight engineer changed the petrol tanks over to the outer tanks and immediately the two engines on the starboard side packed up. So he changed the petrol tanks over to the outer tanks and we were still flying and all of a sudden the four engines just cut. Just like that. And we just fell like that. Luckily enough the flight engineer was right on top of it all and managed to change the tanks over to the right. To the wing tip tanks and the four engines started off. And we couldn’t go to Essen because we didn’t have enough fuel. We couldn’t use all the tanks. So we turned back and we just managed to land at Waddington before all bloody four engines packed up through lack of fuel. So that’s how lucky I was. But what it was in the petrol tanks they had what they called the immersion pumps, electric immersion pumps and what was happening they was packing up on all the aircraft. So what they done they changed the immersion pumps to gravity fuel. So there was no pump there. The petrol was just dropped in gravity. And it solved a problem but before that we lost a lot of aircraft through these petrol pumps packing up. And then we went to — I think we had, I think we went on, yeah we must have gone on leave because [pause] yeah. Yeah we had, yeah we had NFT. We never done anything and then we, on the 15th of the 10th, in October we went to Cologne. And I always remember Cologne because the thing that always struck me in Cologne was the Cathedral. The huge Cathedral. And every time we went there we see that Cathedral. It never got bombed. The whole of Cologne got flattened apart from the Cathedral. There was damage but not too bad. But I don’t think through we were going to miss the Cathedral. It was just sheer luck that we did miss it. But we did hammer Cologne. It really took a terrible hiding. That was on the 15th of the 10th ‘42. October.
TO: Sorry.
HI: Yeah. Go on.
TO: Did you hear about the, what did you think of the thousand bomber raid on Cologne?
HI: That was just before we started. Actually speaking, all it was was a propaganda raid. They got every single aircraft. All from OTU and that’s where the losses were. They lost more bombers from the Operational Training Units on Wellingtons than what they did the main bomber force. They got every aircraft that could fly to make up the thousand. It was only a propaganda rout anyway because we’d done much much more damage with about two or three hundred Lancs then what that thousand bomber raid made. And most of the losses were with OTUs. The inexperienced crews training. And it was only, it was only a propaganda raid I think. They wanted, he’d only just come into office hadn’t he? Harris. And that was his first big raid and he got every bomber from OTU, Conversion Units. Anywhere he could find a bomber and as I say made up his total. But the big bombing raids started really when the Pathfinders moved in. Because what we was doing then we was bombing, not the target, we was bombing the flare. And if those flares were accurate a whole town got wiped out. Which happened quite often. At Hamburg, Dresden, Essen. The towns were open. Once they got the Pathfinders right. Perfect. All those towns were completely open. And I don’t think, I personally think this country would never have stood the bombing like the Germans did. When you think five or six hundred Lancasters each carrying one four thousand pounder and fourteen hundred incendiaries. Going over the target and out again within fifteen minutes. You imagine the hell that must have been there. Anyway, that was war. And then — this is a very interesting raid. On the 17th of the 10th — no, before that we was told. What actually happened was when we arrived at Waddington 44 Squadron was the first squadron to be issued with the Lancaster. What they called the Rhodesian squadron. It was all Rhodesians on it. So they decided to test out this Lancaster and they sent it to, on a bombing raid to Germany. Right into, six Lancasters and they sent right into Germany to bomb. What was the target? Anyway, on the way there the Messerschmitts jumped them and out of the six they shot five down. And only one returned. Nettleton. He got the VC. So when we was in the mess talking to the aircrew that, the one crew that come back they said never, no more will we do daylight, low level raids because it’s suicide. So in September [pause] October. Yeah — October. About the 15th they said we’re going to do some low level daylight flying and we was flying over Lincoln. Nineteen Lancasters. That’s all there was at the time at thirty or forty feet above ground. And we wondered. Surely they’re not going to have another daylight raid which did happen. On the 17th of October. The target was Le Creusot. The time, the time in the air was ten and a half hours. So you can see it was a big schlep. We went right across the North Sea. Right across France at a height of about the height of this house. Ninety Lancasters. Each carrying six one thousand pounders. We flew right across France. All the French people were out waving to us and throwing us kisses and whatnot. We were still looking for the fighters. We never see no fighters. We went right to Le Creusot. And the reason for the bombing of Le Creusot in daylight was that the whole factory was surrounded by workers dwellings and they were frightened if we bombed of a night time there’d be a heavy casualties amongst the civilians. So they decided to do it on daylight and we went right across France. Ninety two of us at about thirty feet off the ground carrying, each carrying six one thousand pounders. What actually happened at the briefing we had to — six aircraft, six Lancasters, had to break off as we reached the Le Creusot and bomb the power station just outside Le Creusot. And on our port side was the Dambuster — Gibson. And he took a picture of us, of our aircraft as we were going in to attack. And as we were going to attack this power station an aircraft on my starboard side just went straight in the deck and blew up. So there was only five of us left attacking the power station which we did attack. And we flattened, literally flatted it. And last year me and my friend was in France. I said, ‘Let’s go to Le Creusot and see what the damage was.’ And we went to the Le Creusot. There’s a huge factory there even now. And my friend approached the manager and said, ‘This bloke. I’ve a bloke out here who bombed you during the war.’ He said, ‘Ah,’ he said, ‘We want to see him.’ So they invited us in and they gave us lunch and we went around the factory and we explained what we’d done. I said, ‘But we didn’t bomb your factory. We bombed the power station,’ I said, ‘One of the aircraft was blown up on the on the approach to the power station.’ He said, ‘Yeah they’re buried. Not in a military airfield but just outside, in an ordinary field where they crashed.’ So I said, ‘Can we go and see?’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ So we went out there and there were six graves and I said to the Frenchman, I said, ‘No There were seven men in the aircraft. There’s only six graves.’ He said, ‘Oh, no.’ He said, ‘The rear gunner survived and was taken.’ How? I don’t know. I’d seen the aircraft literally blowing up in the sky, no, blowing up as it hit the ground. And he survived and was taken prisoner of war. But we actually flattened the place. If you imagine ninety Lancs. Daylight. No opposition. So we come back and we were very relieved that we went all the way there and all the way back and never seen a night, never seen a day fighter. And there must have been hundreds of them there. So we were very relieved and we thought well that’s it. So we started having night flying tests to follow all that week. And then on the 22nd of October we went to Genoa. We went to Genoa in Italy which is a long long long schlep and we wondered why we went there. Because, you know, what was there? I know there was the big battle was going on in the Middle East — El Alemein, at the time because all the supplies were going from Germany through Italy. Anyway, on the Saturday, to our surprise, on Saturday morning said there’s a briefing. This was Saturday morning. So we thought that’s strange. When we went down to the briefing the biggest surprise of the lot. We was going to a do a daylight. A low level daylight raid on Milan in Italy. And that was on the, that was on the 24th of, 24th of October. Operation Milan. Ten and three quarter hours. A long schlep. And we went all the way to Italy at low level, you know, just like that until the Alps. We couldn’t go over the Alps because we were so low so we weaved our way through the Alps. Came out at Lake Como and went straight down to Milan. And I always to this day I think about it. As we approached Milan they never had no idea that there was going to be an air raid. There was no air raid siren. Nothing. So a beautiful Saturday afternoon and as we flew over Milan and made our approach to the target all the people were out in the streets walking about. In the restaurants. And then we opened up and if you imagine ninety Lancs with six one thousand pounders. We just dropped them in the town and we came home. We lost about four that day to German fighters on the way back. But I don’t know how we went all the way to Milan in daylight and come all the way back again. Incredible. And that raid was, that was a ten and three quarter hour trip. I tell you my arse was sore when I got out of that plane [laughs] We never flew no higher than about thirty or forty feet off the ground until we got to the Alps. We had to go a bit higher and then down on Lake Como right into Milan. And then there was no air raids sirens and no guns. We just literally took the whole town by surprise.
TO: Do you remember what the target was? Specifically. In Milan?
HI: No. We just, well there was no target really. We just bombed Milan. We just went in. From what I could see we just bombed the centre of the city. There was an aircraft factory that I think they were supposed to been after but they didn’t bother. They just, and actually I did see a few Lancs opening up their machine guns over the town. Yeah. I did see that. There you are. That was war. And I was, I was a veteran then. I was. We was the only crew left out the squadron. The original squadron. And then we had a little break for about [pause] that was on the 24th of the 10th . Yeah. We had about a week. Must have gone on leave. And then when we come back on the 18th of the 11th we went to Turin again just to liven them up. And believe it or not that was a seven, eight hour trip. And the following day we went back again. To Turin, and done the same again. It was a long long time. We only had about seven hour break between the two raids. And then we went to Stuttgart. Stuttgart. We never made it. You know, we had trouble with the engines and we had to come back. So it didn’t count as a raid. And then this is what happened there. Then we went to Mannheim. That was in the, oh look, you’ve got the bomb load here. One thousand, one four thousand pounder, nine hundred and eighty incendiaries and nickels. Nickels were pamphlets. You know. Propaganda. What we used to do was over the North Sea we used to throw the bleeding lot out. We didn’t want the bother of throwing them out when we got over [laughs] we were supposed to throw them out over the target. We just used to throw them in the sea. Then this, this was when the battle of Alemein was on so we went back to Turin. Nine hours. Next time we was iced up terrible with engine trouble as well. We only done three hours for that one but that didn’t count as a trip. And that was it. And then we went to — this. This, see this raid here.
TO: Is it Hasselunne?
HI: Yeah. What actually happened was we went for the briefing and we said, ‘Where the bleeding hell is Hasselunne.’ It was just a small town just outside the Ruhr valley. Even to this day I remember the briefing. He said, ‘Look’ he said, ‘You’re bombing in the Ruhr valley and none of the workers –’ am I alright?
TO: Yeah. You’re fine.
HI: ‘None of the workers are getting any rest.’ So what they’re doing is they’re sending all the workers out to the small towns so they can get a good night’s rest. You know, the factory workers. So he said, ‘What we’re going to do is liven them up.’ I couldn’t believe it. They said, ‘We’re going to liven them up.’ But they said the reason why there was no bombing that night — it was a full moon. And the full moon when you’re flying is like daylight. There was no cloud so there was going to be no bombing that night but this nuisance raid. There was seventeen Lancasters ok’d at this nuisance raid. That means we had to go in at, this is night time mind you, as low as we could and bomb, bomb the, each was given a small town, a village or small town just outside the Ruhr Valley. Seventeen of us and bomb these small towns and come back home. Just to disrupt the German workers night’s kip. Anyway, in the bomb bay was sixteen one thousand pounders. Delayed action. And then we went to Hasselunne. And it was a beautiful night. Beautiful moon. It was clear as day. We went in about four or five hundred feet with our delayed action bombs. Sixteen of them. And we dropped them right plump right down the middle of the High Street. And I still wonder today if, you know, there was about a fifty minute half hour delay action on the bombs and when we got back we thought it was an easy trip. We went there. Came all the way back at low level and landed. And, but the thing was out of the seventeen Lancasters only seven come back. And we lost ten that night. Well it was fifty percent. Over fifty percent. And that was what I call a terror raid. It was an ordinary open town sitting there like there was, as we flew over, we could see the town. The bombs went and that was it. But then again that was war. And then we went back to our old faithful — Duisburg. And I tell you what — it was getting a bit warm. It was getting a bit warm at Happy Valley. And we went there six hours fifteen minutes. I’ve got the bomb load here. We went one thousand, we went with one thousand one hundred and seventy four incendiaries and nickel. Plus nickels. Six hours fifteen. And then the following day, after we’d been there, as we came back they woke us up in the morning and said, ‘You’re on ops again.’ Munich. So all we had was about five or six hours trip, sleep and was back on the 21st. The 20th and the 21st was at Munich.
TO: Could you please elaborate on this. About training machine guns please.
HI: Yes. We did machine gun a train that night. In the station. It was puffing away in the station and the pilot said, ‘Give it a liven up,’ and we went right along the train. Me and the mid-upper. Blasting it. We see the bullets, the tracer bouncing off the train. Yeah. That was war I suppose. What happened then —
TO: Sorry, if you don’t mind, sir would be ok if you sit back so your head isn’t in the shade. Sorry.
HI: So what happened then? The pilot I was with — Stubbs — had finished his tour. And the crew and they’d finished their tour and I was left without a crew. I was sitting in the mess waiting for new crew and a bloke I knew named Doolan, Sergeant Doolan came up to me and said Harry our rear gunner’s just been killed. We’ve just brought him back dead. Would you like to take his place? So [laughs] I was rather. I knew the rear gunner because I’d have been called up with him in 1940. And his name was Robinson and he came from the other side of London. Brixton. And a night fighter got on their tail. Blasted him out the turret. Literally blasted the whole turret and the tail off. So he said, The aeroplane is being repaired,’ [laughs] Repaired. ‘In the maintenance unit. We’re going to pick it up now. It’s got a new turret on it. A new tail plane. Ready to fly again.’ He said, ‘Would you come as a rear gunner?’ I said, ‘I haven’t got a pilot. I’ll come.’ So, so I flew with this crew. They was all NCOs, and we finished. We finished a whole tour. And we was the only crew that finished a tour all the time I was at Waddington. The nine months I was at Waddington we was the only crew that finished a tour. And we was all NCOs. Where were we? So my first trip with Sergeant Doolan was Dusseldorf again. Look. Went there a few times didn’t we? Dusseldorf. And this was, this was a shaky one. Hamburg. We got to Hamburg and we was prepared to go in for the bombing raid. The flak was crashing about all over us and the plane started going like that. Literally dropping like a stone. So the pilot said, ‘We’re so iced up that we can’t fly the bloody aircraft.’ And I could hear somebody say, ‘Oh it’s coming off.’ Great big lumps of ice crashing against the aircraft. Anyway, he said we’ll have to abandon. So we dropped our bombs where we were. Just outside Hamburg and went down as low as we could and the ice started breaking away and we managed to fly again properly. But when I got back and told them that was a really dicey trip they said, ‘You didn’t you get no photograph then?’ We said, ‘No. We just approached Hamburg, we see Hamburg being bombed but we just couldn’t make it,’ They said, ‘Well, it’s unfortunate. That don’t count. That was another trip that didn’t count [laughs] You know, it was hard in those days I’m telling you. And us all being NCOs and the briefing officer probably being a flight lieutenant or a squadron leader we couldn’t argue with it. We was only bleeding poor old NCOs. And then this is a new year. No. This is the 13th of the 2nd 1943. This was in February ‘43. We went to Laurent in France which wasn’t bad. It was an easy trip that was. And then back to Milan which was a long, long. long slog. And then our favourite. As a rear gunner our favourite was operations to Wilhelmshaven. Back to Wilhelmshaven. And then again to Bremen. Which was unusual I started off there didn’t I? Wilhelmshaven and went the other way around. Bremen and Wilhelmshaven. This time it was Wilhelmshaven and Bremen and I tell you what. There was some flak there. There was some flak. We got badly damaged coming back from Bremen so we had to land at a place called Croft. And then we returned the next morning in another aircraft. And then we went to Nuremberg and that night, believe it or not, we lost fifty that night. Flying to Nuremberg. The next time they went there they lost a hundred and twenty. Yeah. They lost a hundred and twenty. They went back there again a couple of months later and lost a hundred and twenty Lancs in one night.
TO: Out of how many?
HI: About four hundred. Yeah. It was slaughter. And then again on the 26th of February I went to Cologne. Do you want to see it in here?
TO: Yeah.
HI: Have you seen Cologne?
TO: Yes. I’ve seen it. Thank you. Sorry. Is it ok if I ask what did you think of Arthur Harris?
HI: Well, to me personally speaking the man had plenty of guts because after the Nuremberg raid we’d lost a hundred and twenty bombers that night. The following night he sent out another huge force. Now, a man has got to have, you’ve got to have some guts in you to do that. You know. After that terrible loss. But he was the man to do the job. Nobody else could do it. He, only took orders from Churchill. Churchill was the governor and what Churchill said went. Unless it was a diabolical raid and Harris said, ‘No. I can’t manage that.’ But there was, he had an aide de camp, Harris. I forget his name now. And we was going on a bombing raid and the aide de camp said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘It’s too much. It’s too many losses. We’re losing too many people there. We shouldn’t go.’ And he resigned. But Harris still went and we still had the losses. So there was somebody you know up the top knew what was going on. Our losses were, well you can’t, you cannot believe it. You could say you’d go on leave, you’d go on leave and come back in the mess — there was all strangers in there. All the old crews had gone. Within a week. Had a heavy week all had gone. All new crews. Yeah. And the faces got younger and younger and younger.
TO: Did you look young for your age?
HI: Do you think so?
TO: No, did you? Did you look young for your age? Or did you look older?
HI: Here. There I am there. On the wall. You see me. There. Picture on the wall.
TO: Thank you.
HI: Can you see it?
TO: Yeah. I see it. Do you think, did anyone ever find out that you’d lied about your age?
HI: Yeah. They did after I’d — I went, I went in the air force under the name of my mother’s maiden name because I didn’t want — I was stupid. I went in the name of, the name of Galloway. And then when I’d been on 9 Squadron about two months the CO called me in and said, ‘We found out your name isn’t Galloway. It’s Irons.’ He said, ‘We’ve changed,’ he never said nothing, he said, ‘Your name’s been changed now to Irons.’ And I went from Galloway to Irons and nothing was said about it. But it was all kids, all joined . Loads and loads of sixteen and seventeen year olds. There’s me there. When I got married.
TO: Was that, was that during the war?
HI: Yeah. That was just before I went and bombed Dresden. That was about two weeks before I bombed Dresden. 1944. I don’t know what made me get married then. I don’t know. And this here [pause] this, they used to kid us, they used to kid us that was an easy trip.
TO: Gardening.
HI: And it was the most dangerous trip we ever been. Mining. We used to have six one thousand pound mines on parachutes. And the thing was you had to fly over the Baltic and drop these mines at about five hundred feet. Jerry knew this and he had loads of these little fast boats with light flak on them and they shot down loads and loads of our boys. On these mining trips. And they used to call it an easy trip. That’s because it wasn’t the Ruhr valley.
TO: Did they call it gardening?
HI: They called it. Yeah. That was the code name for it. Gardening, yeah. Because you was planting. Instead of fruit you were planting mines. Called it gardening. Yeah. Oh you know. And then believe it or not I was back, back on my old favourite. Oh I went to Munich on the 3rd. And on the 9th we had this gardening and on the 12th back on my old favourite. Essen. I went to the Ruhr valley twenty seven times and I survived. How I done it I don’t know. And then we went to St Nazaire. Went to St Nazaire and that was a dodgy trip. They had a hell of a load of flak. We was in France and had a lot of flak. The thing was we had a, we had a wireless operator and on one of our trips he wasn’t well and he couldn’t fly that night. So he, he was one trip behind us. Say we was on twenty eight he was on twenty seven so he had to make up a trip so what they used to do they used to find another crew who wanted a spare wireless operator and he’d go and make up his trip. He was one behind. Unfortunately, he went on this trip and he never come back. A bloke named Chapel. He was on about his twenty seventh trip. He only had three or four trips to do. And he went on this trip and never came back. Which happened all the time. And then [pause] we ended our tour. My last trip was Kiel Canal which is a shocking place that was. Shocking. Well they was all bad. And then I survived. I survived thirty seven trips and I’m still a sergeant. And they sent me to a OTU. Sent me to OTU as an instructor. And I done that for about six months and was in the mess one night and we’d had a load, I used to drink then. I don’t drink now. And we were already sozzled and we caused a little bit of damage. A little bit of mayhem in the mess. We went in front of the CO the next morning and he said, ‘I’m bloody fed up with you gunners.’ And he said, ‘I’m posting you.’ And I thought where the bloody hell are you going to post me? The two postings he’d already got out was to Scotland. I thought sod that. I’ve got to go up all way to Scotland. And my posting come up. Southend. Just down the road. How lucky could I be? And what I was doing I was flying in Martinets towing a drogue for the flak. And we used to go right from Dover, Ramsgate, Margate, Clacton, not Clacton. All the way along the south coast towing this drogue. And the British ack ack used to fire, but they were so bloody accurate they used to keep blowing the bloody drogues off. So they told the gunners to fire a couple of degrees further back. And you used to watch the flak. I used to watch the flak in a straight line, right coming right along, right. I hoped they’d stop firing before the [laughs] and you could see the puffs of smoke trailing the white, trailing the big white drogue we had. And I’d done that went on for a few months and they said you’re going to back on ops again. And that’s when I went back on Halifaxes. And that was in [pause] that was in — there was a little bit of a rest and I never expected to go back on ops again. These are all towing drogues. The co-op yeah.
TO: So how many ops did you do in total during the war?
HI: Sixty.
TO: Sixty.
HI: Yeah. And then this is when I was telling you about. The beginning, the beginning of my second tour.
TO: [unclear]. Another daylight one.
HI: Yeah. Well that’s when I, when the CO told me they’d put a .5. It was a big hole. A huge hole cut around underneath the belly of the Halifax. And they had the .5 there. And we went all the way to Duisburg. The flak was, the flak was just as bad as when, well it was worse than when I’d been there previous. In the previous months. And I never seen no fighters. And it was in daylight. When we come back the pilot was screaming his head off. He said, ‘I’m not going to fly any more planes with a bloody great hole in the bottom of the aircraft.’ He said, ‘It’s too cold.’ So they, they put a block on it. But the funny thing was as we were going in to Duisburg we was, we was approaching Duisburg the someone, the ones in front had already bombed Duisburg and they were coming back. Like in a U. Coming back. There was about a quarter of a mile. As we was going in like that they was coming out. And one of our aircrafts, I don’t know why he done it, he decided he wasn’t going to bomb Duisburg. He was going to join those that was already coming out. And as he went across from our, from our flight as he went across, right across to join those that were coming out, the flak — because we was on the protection of the silver paper. We was all dumping the silver paper out and the radar couldn’t do nothing about it. But he broke the protection of the silver paper to cut across to join the blokes that was coming out. The flak opened up. It went one — one, two, three. The third one hit him. Right dead centre. Just went like that. It’s a shame. And I’ve seen it at night time. But during the day I’d seen it. I couldn’t believe it. Just went in smithereens. He still had his bomb load on. He must have had. Yeah. Why he cut across I don’t know but he just blew up. Yeah.
TO: Could you please explain how the silver paper or Window worked?
HI: Well, what it was, each piece of silver paper made a blimp on their radar screen. Each piece. So if you imagine millions of pieces dropping down — the whole screen was absolutely flooded. And the guns just stood still because they didn’t know which, which blimp to follow. Instead of one blimp on the screen there was thousands of them and they didn’t — so the guns just stood like that. The searchlights stood like that. The fighters didn’t know what to do, and the fighters — what they’d done they’d put a separate radar in the fighters. Night fighters. Independently. And they could still attack us which they did do. But the silver paper definitely helped us. Really helped us with the flak and the searchlights. They couldn’t do anything. The searchlights just used to stand still like that. But one thing they used to do which let’s say there was cloud cover most of the way to the target. The searchlights used to light up under the cloud and the bombers that were flying above it were silhouetted out against the light of the cloud and the fighters used to go straight in there. You know. Loads and loads of fighters. You had to watch them all the time and directly you see one you went straight into a dive to try to get out of its way. But as you know we never flew in a formation and there was a lot of crashes with our bombers criss-crossing and diving about.
TO: Did you participate in the large raid on Hamburg in July 1943?
HI: No. I missed that one. I went to the one previous. The one previous what I went to. That one was the fire one wasn’t it? That was the first time they used silver paper. That was exactly the first time they used it. We’d never used it.
TO: Did people call it silver paper or did most people call it Window?
HI: Window. Window. It was called Window. Yeah. Yeah. They had that right from the war. They had it but they wouldn’t use in case. They were frightened the Jerries were going to use it.
TO: And ironically Germany had developed it at the same time and didn’t want to use it.
HI: They did. Yeah.
TO: In case Britain used it.
HI: Yeah. Yeah. We used it because we were getting very strong in the air at that time. And they had to use it because the night fighters were getting the upper. And do you know at one period they was going to pack up night bombing? Yeah. They were going to stop it because the losses were so heavy. Yeah.
TO: And what’s your opinion on the Halifax bomber?
HI: Good. The Halifax Mark 3 was a good bomber. It never got the credit it deserved. It was a very very good bomber. They changed the engines and the tail plane and it became a very very good bomber. It was reliable. Got a good speed. Good height. The Mark 2 was rubbish. I think the Germans shot most of them down, like the Stirling. But the Mark 3 Halifax was a good plane. They changed the engines to Bristol, Bristols, and it made a lot of difference. Yeah.
TO: And what did you think of the Wellington?
HI: The Wellington was a good plane but it wasn’t up to it when the war started. It was alright for a few months of the war. My first squadron, number 9, they made the first bombing raid of the war and they lost, I think they lost two or three on their first bombing raid. The Wellington was a good plane but it wasn’t up to the capability of bombing. Night bombing. It was too slow. Didn’t get the height. They did go up to the Mark 10 and we used to see them now and again but they didn’t use them a lot at the end of the war. The Stirling was useless. The Stirling one was a useless bomber. Couldn’t get no height. It was big. It was clumsy. Some of the blokes used to like it but not many.
TO: And the Lancaster. What did you think?
HI: The Lancaster was a good plane. Yeah. Was a good plane. Yeah. And they churned them out. The way they churned them out was unbelievable. Do you know what we’re going to do now? We’re going to stop for a bit. I’m going to make you a cup of tea.
TO: Yeah. Sure. Are we on course?
HI: Yeah.
TO: Yeah. Ok.
TO: Yeah. Are you ok? Yeah.
[pause] [doorbell rings]
TO: Ok.
HI: Right. What do you want? The second tour?
TO: Yes. Start on the second tour I think.
HI: What happened I was doing drogue towing with my Martinets and the CO called us in and said, ‘You’re back on ops.’ And they sent me to 77 Squadron, Full Sutton. October 1944. And when I arrived they said, ‘The CO wants to see you. So I said what’s he want to see me about.’ I bet he wants to borrow a few [laughs] Anyway, he came out to us and he said, ‘We’re just, this is a special Halifax,’ and he said, ‘It’s got a big hole been cut in the bottom of the Halifax.’ It was a big hole as well. And it was a .5. and they put a sort of, I don’t how they expected me to sit on that bloody seat all those hours. And it was a manual. It was a manual .5 and they said, ‘If a fighter, a night fighter comes up underneath you’ll be able to spot it and protect the aircraft.’ So I said, ‘Alright. Fair enough.’ And the strange thing was it wasn’t on a night bombing trip. They sent me on a day trip to Duisburg. And I never see no fighters come up. And we come back. But the crew, the crew was complaining terrible about the hole in the aircraft and the cold air coming through. Anyway, on the 22nd of the 10th ’44 I went up again in this Halifax with a .5 and done a little bit of air firing with it. And I come down. I said, ‘I don’t think it’s going to be very successful because it’s too bloody cold.’ So, so the CO said, ‘I don’t know what we’re going to do with you then. We’ve don’t need any gunners here.’ And they posted me to 462 Squadron at Driffield, Australian squadron. And there I started my, on the 29th of the 10th. 29th of the 10th [pause] where was I there. Yeah. On the 22nd I was at Full Sutton. On the 29th of the 10th I was on ops in 462 Squadron, Driffield. 1942. The pilot apparently had been shot down over France and he made this because it was occupied by the British troops then. And they managed to get back to England and of course he was looking for a new crew and I joined him. And believe it or not as a mid-upper. I don’t know why they put me as a mid-upper. Anyway, they put me as a mid-upper and we went to Happy Valley. A place called Dornburg It was a daylight on Dornburg. That was just outside Happy Valley. On the following day we went to Cologne. Operations — Cologne. That was as a night time. And I couldn’t see them I was beginning to find it was getting a bit easier. The ops were getting easier. The flak was just as bad but the fighters didn’t seem, the fighters didn’t seem such a pest like they used to be. And the thing was every trip I went on. Every trip I went on my second tour. Near enough every one, near every one, was to Happy Valley. The next trip was with Hourigan, an Australian, was to Dusseldorf. And on the 4th we went to Bochum. Bochum. That’s in the Ruhr valley as well. And then [pause] and then we went on a daylight raid. It just shows you. A daylight raid to Gelsenkirchen and — which was unbelievable. You’d never, the year before they would never have dared gone over the Ruhr valley in the daylight. And then we done a bit of air firing in a Halifax. And then we went back to Essen. Hourigan again. I was with Hourigan again and we went to Essen on the 29th of ‘44. And on the 30th believe it or not we was back in Duisburg. And every one of those trips was to the Ruhr Valley. And on the 21st of the 12th ‘44 I went to Cologne. And I was posted from there to the other Australian squadron 466 Squadron. Total operations — I thought it was nine. Then I was posted to the other Australian squadron at Driffield — 466. And I carried, and I went with, wait a minute, I carried on with Hourigan and we went to Saarbrucken in daylight. Which was unbelievable. And then we went to Magdeburg in the, in the Ruhr Valley. And then back to Gelsenkirchen again as a mid-upper. I went as a mid-upper then in a Halifax. But I found that things were a bit easier in the second tour. Wasn’t really because we were still losing a hell of a load of bloody aircraft but it seemed to me a bit, seemed to me to be a bit lighter. And then on the 2nd of the 2nd ‘45 I went to Wanne-Eickel. It’s another — I missed out a page here.
[pause]
And then I was posted to 158 Squadron at Lissett in Yorkshire. And the first trip we went to was to Dresden. That was on the 13th of the 2nd ‘44. We, we never actually bombed Dresden. We bombed the place just outside Dresden called [unclear ] or [unclear] or Bohlem or whatever. B O H L E M. We was told to go in before the 5. We were in 4 Group and were told to go in just before 5 Group and draw the fighters away from Dresden which we did do. We had bleeding swarms of bleeding fighters around us. And the Lancs went into Dresden unopposed and that’s why Dresden took such a hiding. There was no opposition whatsoever there. And then 5 Group just done what they liked. And we could see, well we was right next door to it. We could see the huge blaze at Dresden burning merrily away. And we was at, from this place just outside Dresden. We landed. We had trouble. I think we got hit that night and we landed back at Manston for a couple of hours. Then we went to, then funnily enough I started flying with a Canadian. A Canadian named Cooperman. And strangely enough that was, that was back, back at the Ruhr Valley again. Rohrsheim. And then the following, the following day I was with Cooperman and we was bombing a place called Worms in the Ruhr valley. And I always remember to this day, this Canadian, who was a Jew, was a Jewish bloke and he’d left Germany with his parents before the war. And he was, he was a flying officer in the Canadian Air Force. And as we approached Worms he said, ‘Chaps,’ he said, ‘This is where I was born.’ He said, ‘And now I’m going to bomb the bastards.’ And those were the exact words he said. And we did. We went and bombed it. And the next thing we knew and on the 23rd of the 2nd we went to Essen again and, the times I went to Essen, and the following day on the 24th of the 2nd I went back to the Ruhr Valley and done close quarter — Kamen. And then the following on the 27th — That was our last trip of the war we went to Mainz. And most of those trips were in the Ruhr valley. And unscathed. Unbelievable. And of course the war, the war finished soon after that didn’t it? 27th of the 2nd.
TO: And what are your thoughts on the bombing of Dresden?
HI: Well to be honest with you it was just well after all those trips it just came normal. You know. You just looked down and saw a huge huge fire below you which you normally see and that was it. Dresden was the same. We was, the place we bombed was more or less on the outskirts of Dresden. The idea of us was to draw the fighters away. Just go in about five or six minutes before the main force. Bring the fighters away and of course that’s what happened. And the Lancs from 5 Group went in and done their business. They did do the business. There was no flak there. No opposition whatsoever. There was no flak and no fighters. They just went in, done their bombing and went home. And of course it caught well alight.
TO: Did the fire that you could see at Dresden — did it look any bigger than what you had seen before?
HI: It looked big, yeah. We could see. All the crew said, ‘Blimey that’s a big one down there.’ But then again most, most bombing trips we always had looked down, those targets were well alight. Well alight. The amount of incendiaries we dropped was unbelievable. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of them. Yeah.
TO: This is going to be an odd question and I don’t think you may even be able to answer it, but when you were flying over areas that were on fire could you, was there any noticeable change in the temperature when you were flying above it?
HI: No. I wouldn’t have thought so. You was only over the target, it looked like a lifetime but you was only over there minutes. Really minutes. Oh, you’re talking about the hot air coming up?
TO: Yeah. The [unclear] rising up.
HI: I don’t think — they never noticed. It didn’t seem no bloody warmer in the turret anyway [laughs] but all you was, I’d known from my personal opinion was we wanted to get in. Get out. Quick as possible. That’s what we done. But the thing that we never realised but the German fighters told us afterwards, the worst thing we ever done was after we’d dropped our bombs was to go into a dive. We should never have done that because that gave the advantage to the night fighters. They was above you then. Well above you to come in. What we should have done is kept the same height coming out of the target. But we all used to dive. Pick up speed to get away from the target. Yeah. But you used to see on the way home you always see bombers blowing up in the sky. All the time. Yeah. Over the target, yeah. And the thing was to get in and get out quick.
TO: Right. How do you feel about Churchill’s decision when he ordered the bombing of cities?
HI: Well, we never knew it was. We knew it was somebody higher up than Harris but of course it was, was Churchill. He demanded that we bombed the cities and Harris just took his word for it and he made sure we did bomb them. And of course he had the backing of a huge bomber force didn’t he? Lancs, Halifaxes. Probably, if we’d had them a year earlier the war would have finished earlier. But the bomb load was enormous. One four thousand pounder and fourteen hundred incendiaries. Imagine that lot dropping. Four or five hundred bombers dropping that lot on a small town. Yeah.
TO: When you went on missions were you part of a bomber stream?
HI: Well a stream. It was, literally was a stream. There was no formation flying or nothing. You just went over and you had to be in a certain point. More or less rendezvous at a certain point on the map. So that you were more or less was all collected together so you could make one rush to the target. Get in and get out quick. You never doodled about over the target. You went in and especially with the Pathfinders. You just, you just went for the flare. You’d see the flares. Went straight for the flares.
Other: Sorry to disturb you again Harry.
HI: Yes sir.
[recording paused]
TO: You think, you just mentioned to me something about the evasive manoeuvres. The night fighters said the wrong thing to do was to dive.
HI: Yeah. Leaving the target. We found out, well after the night fighters said it was the wrong thing to do was to dive away from the target because it gave them the advantage of height to come in after you. Which, when you think about it, was right. But what actually caused the much trouble for Bomber Command was the up and under. The Schrage musik. That was one that caused all the trouble. The flak you couldn’t, couldn’t avoid. The flak was there. If it hit you it hit you and if it didn’t hit you you was lucky. It was just sheer luck. You couldn’t avoid it. You had to go through it and if one of those shells hit you that was it. Yeah. We used to get huge lumps of shrapnel come through the aircraft. That was the danger. And if that hit you it caused terrible damage. So there you are.
TO: Could you see much on the ground other than fires and explosions?
HI: No. All you could see from about twenty thousand feet you didn’t keep looking at the target because you had to keep active with the fighters. Because they was all around you. All waiting for you. They was like sharks and you had to watch. You had to really watch the sky for fighters. They were the biggest danger. And when they come in they showed no mercy. They went straight in.
TO: Yeah.
HI: Yeah.
TO: Did night fighters take out more bombers than flak?
HI: Yeah. Definitely. Much much more. Especially with the up and under. That’s what done it. Yeah. I think they — I reckon — I don’t know, I’ve got no idea but I reckon seventy five per cent, eighty percent of the shot down were done by fighters. And you know when you think some had forty or fifty bombers to their credit. It was so easy for them. You could come and all they had to do was get underneath the aircraft, press the trigger, press the button, fire the guns and they wouldn’t, the shells that were explosive shells go into the petrol tank. Bang. Up it went. Just like that.
TO: And when you, can you explain to me a bit more how the briefings worked for the missions?
HI: Well, what it actually was we were two squadrons. We were told at the briefing in the briefing room was near enough down to your HQ you know where all the office buildings were. And with a crowd in the room there was always a military policeman on the, on the gate and we went in and sat down. A bit noisy. Everybody was noisy. Laughing and joking. Then all of a sudden — bang. The CO would come in with his adjutant and his armament officer, gunnery officer, bomb aimer officer and navigation officer used to follow the CO in. And they’d go on the platform and we’d wait for the curtain. There was a big curtain over the map. That was pulled down and then you’d see. And that’s when you used to get the ohs and ahs. See the Ruhr. See the Ruhr Valley up and say, ‘Oh blimey.’ But they didn’t, they used to love Italy. Going to Italy. But Munich was a bad target, Nuremburg was, Berlin was. But the Ruhr valley was the place where most of the flak was. The reason for it was because you didn’t have one town. You had about ten or fifteen towns near enough on top of each other. And if you missed one, one town, if you missed one town you had to go over another town and they’d give you a pasting as well. That’s why they used to call it Happy Valley. Yeah. You got a good reception going in and a better reception coming out. You used to see the bombs blowing upwards and the huge explosions down below. You still had to keep one eye out for the fighters. Especially the single engine fighters. They used to come in and they used to go right through the flak after you. Yeah. Messerschmitt. Used to come straight at you. And they had four cannons and if one of those hit you mate it was good night nurse.
TO: What kind of targets were you generally given at the briefings?
HI: Well, we was told an area where to bomb. We were never given an actual target. We was given an area to bomb because very very difficult of a night time picking out a target from twenty thousand feet. You got an area and we would bomb that area. If we could. If it was a clear moonlight night and at that time we were dropping our own flares. There was no Pathfinding at the beginning. And we used to drop our own flares to see where, you know, where the target was. And it got easier when they got the Pathfinders. Because all that meant there was — get to the target and see the flare. Bomb the flare. But the trouble was Jerry knew this was going on and so he used to concentrate all his, all his artillery on where the flares were. And a lot of places were literally burned to pieces. Because I didn’t realise how many houses in Germany were made of wood. It was amazing. Dresden was nearly all wood wasn’t it? Yeah. And there was another place. I forget where it was. Completely burned down. Near the Baltic. I can’t remember the name.
TO: Hamburg.
HI: No. Smaller place than that. They burned the whole town down. That was in about 1942.
TO: Lubeck.
HI: Ah, Lubeck. Yeah. Yeah. They burned Lubeck down completely. Yeah. Raised it to the ground. Incendiaries. They were fearsome things those incendiaries. I think they was about eighteen inches long. Shaped like a twenty piece coin. About four, I think it had four or five sides to it but they were pretty deadly. Imagine that. I mean we used to carry fourteen or fifteen hundred. You imagine a hundred Lancs all carrying that amount load. How many incendiaries were dropped in one night. And then we had the other incendiary with oil. That was a terrible one as well.
TO: And were you ever given, did you ever win any awards during the war?
HI: Yeah. I got the DFC. The reason I think I got that because after, as the war was finishing they asked me how many trips I’d done. I wrote them down. They took no notice of it and then a couple of weeks later they said, ‘Oh. You’ve been awarded the DFC.’ So that’s what I got, the DFC. It was a bit unique because I was a warrant officer. I wasn’t an officer and that’s an officer’s medal the DFC but being a warrant officer they gave it to the, gave us the DFC as well.
TO: Did it go to the rest of the crew as well?
HI: That I don’t know. The war had finished and most of the crews had dispersed, you know. What was left of them. Most of the blokes during the war was awarded the DFCs and DFMs. A lot of them got killed. A hell of a lot of them. Usually and this is what I don’t understand — when I finished my first tour everybody got the DFM except me. That I don’t understand. Then I realised what it might have been. Because I changed my name from Irons to Galloway when I was halfway through me tour. And I think they might have looked at it and just seen Galloway. And Irons was just so many trips. And Irons was so many trips and they never connected the two together. But all the crew got the DFM except me. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator, mid-upper except me.
TO: And what was your favourite aircraft of the war?
HI: Well, I think, myself the Halifax. I thought the Halifax Mark 3 was a better aircraft than the Lanc. It was a good bomber. It done its job. Same as the Lanc. I don’t think it carried the same heavy bomb load as a Lanc. It was a good plane. Had no problems with it. We had four machine guns in the mid-upper and four in the back so it was a bit better armed than the, than the Lanc. And right at the end of the war of course they brought out the other turret with the .5s in them. It was a bit late though. The war was more or less finished. We should have had them in ‘42. They made a hell of a lot of difference.
TO: And I know we mentioned this earlier but could you explain again what happened to people who refused to go on bombing missions?
HI: Well I know it happened. I know it happened. I’ve heard, you know, stories of what happened. I never come across it myself but it did happen. And especially not the officers so much which I still don’t understand that. But the NCOs were stripped. Stripped down to AC2 and put in the prison. I think it was in the Isle of Sheppey and they done about two or three months here. And when they came out on their record books, you know the big card box, book thing you all had was right at the top in red letters that they’d refuse to fly. LMF. Yeah. Which was wrong. Some blokes couldn’t take it. Just couldn’t take it. Probably had a couple of bad trips and that was it. And they were bad trips. Yeah. And after the war they just treated us like mud. Didn’t care. Gave us all the menial jobs there were about and that was it. We had to wait twelve months before we got demobbed. A lot of them got, a lot of them had their ranks cut right down to AC1 and AC2. I don’t know why. I never, but a lot of them did. Which was all wrong.
TO: And what’s your best memory of the war?
HI: My best memory of the war was my first bombing trip. To Duisburg. Not Duisburg.
TO: Dusseldorf.
HI: Dusseldorf. That was my first trip and that was the most frightening. It wasn’t the worst one I done but it was my first one and I never expected what I’d see. Never knew. And when we come back after a bombing raid we never discussed, never discussed a bombing trip anyway. We never said it was bad or anything like that. We just, just more or less kept quiet. Because we was all frightened what was going to be the next one I think. Which near enough always happened. The crews. You’d go on leave, you’d come back — all different faces. Yeah. And that went on time and time again. I think they could have treated bomber crews a little bit better than what they did for what they’d done but there you are.
TO: And what was probably the most difficult mission you ever had? If you don’t want to discuss don’t talk about it.
HI: No. The most difficult place to go to was Essen. It was terrible. The flak there was unbelievable. It was all difficult. Every one. You never knew. You never knew your luck. Some went on easy trips. They thought was an easy trip. Like the one who got the VC for the first daylight raid. Low level raid of the war in a Lancaster. He got the VC and he stayed on the squadron but he never done no trips until one came up for Italy which we used to say it was easy. He went on an Italian one and got shot down. So you never knew your luck. Nettleton. That was the VC. Yeah. He went on one of the easy Italian trips and got shot down.
TO: So you mentioned earlier that guy Gibson was with you on that one low level mission.
HI: Oh yeah. Yeah.
TO: Was he with a different squadron number at that time?
HI: Yeah. He was, he was 106 squadron. He was the CO of 106 Squadron. 106 Squadron. He was definitely on our port side. And he took the photograph of us and another crew as we were just going into Le Creusot and that is, and the actual picture now is in the big museum at Hendon. The big photograph of it. Yeah. Because he went on to become the Dambuster didn’t he?
TO: What do you think of Operation Chastise?
HI: Operation?
TO: Chastise. It was the Dambusters raid.
HI: Well I reckon myself, personally speaking they could have got near enough any crew could have done that. It was only just more or less flying low and dropping the bomb at the right height. But they just, they just picked the crews, he picked the crews he wanted. They were all his mates mostly from 106 Squadron. But it was a good raid that weren’t it? A good raid. There was worse ones than that but there you are. You can fly to Essen or on the Ruhr Valley was a much more dangerous target than the — than that.
TO: Did you ever have to attack railway yards?
HI: They did but we never attacked, I never attacked a railway yard. Only in Italy, Genoa. But we attacked the whole town and the railway yard was amongst it, you know. We attacked that because they was having a big huge battle at Alemain and the Germans were bringing supplies through to Genoa down to the Middle East. And we attacked it. The railway yards there. Yeah.
TO: And what do you think was the most important campaign of the war?
HI: Well actually — what? From the whole of —
TO: From the whole of the war.
HI: Bomber Command. I think if it hadn’t been for Bomber Command the war would have gone on for much much much longer. Much longer. So we — so you’ve been to Germany haven’t you? Seen the, did you see the state of the bombing? Oh you never did you?
TO: I saw, I saw the church that they left.
HI: Yeah. Yeah. But the flak, but the bombing terrorised Germany. Definitely. I don’t think we would have stood it anyway. I know we wouldn’t have done.
TO: And did you hear at all — when did you hear about the Holocaust?
HI: Nobody heard about that ‘til after the war. They must have known. They must have had, they must have had reports coming through from the Resistance about what was happening but we never heard about it. We never knew it was going on. The funny thing was I read after the war that the Jewish community in England asked us, asked Bomber Harris to bomb Auschwitz. Bomb it completely. And he refused. Good job he did because can you imagine what would have happened after the war when they found out that they said the RAF had bombed a concentration camp? The thing was the Jews reckon that it was better for them to be killed with a bomb than the suffering like they were. [pause – fly buzzing on recording] Got some flies in here haven’t we? Have you got it all written down have you?
TO: I have my questions on here. See which ones I’ve asked and which I haven’t because a lot of them you’ve answered already in your — in your —
HI: Yeah.
TO: Were clouds over the target ever a major problem?
HI: It was a big problem. Once, well once the cloud was over the target you couldn’t see it so you either had to bring your bombs back or drop them on a near enough target what you see. And once you, if you went over the target we shouldn’t have gone, we shouldn’t have gone on the raid. If the Met officer told us that there was full cloud over the target we shouldn’t go. We had a few cancellations like that. We were all ready to go sitting in the aircraft and then the red light would come up. No ops through, through bad weather. Icing was one of the worst most dangerous things. Flying through cloud with the ice.
TO: And before you joined the RAF can you, do you remember much about seeing the bombing of London?
HI: Oh I seen London. I was, I told you. We lived at Stamford Hill. It was a high, quite a high part of the ground and you had a first class picture of what was happening in the City of London. It was well alright. Really well alight. They caught the whole of the city alight. It was blazing. And that’s when we decided to join the RAF. A lot of the bombs were dropped scattered in London anyway. A hell of a lot of the bombs were dropped everywhere. Not in one area. Just dropped their bombs and went away. You know. It was over London. That was it.
TO: And do you remember seeing much of the Battle of Britain?
HI: Yeah we see a little bit of it. We were about fifteen sixteen then. Sixteen. And we was over the Lea. The big open open field by the River Lea and we had a grandstand view of the RAF Spitfires attacking the bombers and the fighters. We see them going down. Yeah. It was quite a battle. Yeah. And as I say they had a terrific disadvantage. The Germans. Because they had to come all the way over France before they got to England, and our Spitfires were waiting for them when they come here. They didn’t have that huge journey. They were more or less local. At Hendon they were at. Hornchurch. Yeah. Good job we beat them. But the Battle of Britain was no comparison. I’ll tell you now, no comparison to the Battle for the Ruhr. No comparison whatsoever. In terms of casualties anyway.
TO: And can you tell me a bit about the gunnery school course you went on?
HI: Yeah. When we arrived there we was told it was a six weeks course. I think we flew about — I’ve got it here. I know it wasn’t a lot.
[pause]
HI: In all I done nineteen hours flying. Nineteen hours. It’s frightening. And it was all firing at drogues. Two hundred rounds fired. All usual firing at a drogue being towed by an aircraft.
TO: Yes.
HI: Done six weeks there and I was straight on ops which was frightening really. You didn’t know what was happening [laughs] till, till you got there. Yeah.
TO: Is it ok if I close the door to the lounge? There seems to be a bit of birdsong coming through.
HI: Pardon?
TO: Is it ok if I close the door to the lounge?
HI: Yeah
TO: Sorry. It’s just a bit of —
HI: What? A bit of a reflection.
TO: No. There’s a bit of birdsong coming through. That’s all.
HI: Birdsong.
TO: Yeah.
HI: Yeah. Go on. Yeah. You don’t like birds.
TO: No. It’s just it might interfere on the film. That’s all. Sorry.
[pause]
TO: Nothing to do with birds it’s just it might be interfering in the background noise that’s all. I haven’t got a problem with birds. Sorry what was that. I couldn’t remember, what were saying earlier about the propaganda leaflets that you had with you?
HI: Nickel. Every time we took off there was a pack. A big parcel of nickels. Not on every raid but a lot of the raids and it was up to the engineer mostly to throw them through the bomb bay. He had a window at the side of him and he could open up and could throw the nickels into the bomb bay. So when the bomb bay, when the bomb doors opened all the nickels floated out. That was the idea of it. But our skipper say sod it and just used to ask one of the crew to go back and throw them out the bleeding aircraft. We don’t want to — ‘We’ve got enough on our plate without throwing out bloody leaflets.’ And it was a load of rubbish that the Jerry never took notice of. Just a waste of time.
TO: Harris said after the war he never engaged in pamphlet dropping for two reasons. One — it gave the defenders plenty of practice in getting ready for it.
HI: Yeah.
TO: And two it supplied a considerable quantity of toilet paper to the Germans.
HI: That’s right. Yeah [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Nickels they called them.
TO: And did you hear about Hitler’s invasion of Russia?
HI: Oh we heard about it. It was on the news. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It didn’t make no difference to us. We were still building our forces. That was in nineteen forty — in the nineteen forty wasn’t it? Russia.
TO: I think it was ’41. Or around that time.
HI: Yeah. It didn’t bother us but my squadron, number 9 and 617 went to Russia before they bombed the Tirpitz because it’s such a long distance they had to refuel and on the way back they bombed the Tirpitz. And they were successful. They sunk that anyway.
TO: Were your, did you ever see the Tallboy bombs they were using?
HI: No. I never see it. No. Because by the time I was on Halifaxes then. There was only two squadrons that had the tall bomb. There was 617 and my squadron — number 9. They didn’t started bombing, didn’t start using the tall boy until the end probably the end of ’43. They caused a lot of damage. Caused a hell of a lot of damage. But there was only two squadrons that dropped it anyway.
TO: And what were conditions like in general aboard a Halifax?
HI: Just the same as a Lanc I suppose. Bloody cold. And that was it. A little bit more room. You could get out the turret and get yourself, escape a bit quicker than the Lanc. It was a bit easier. You could open the doors and just more or less crouch down and get out. With the Lanc you had to slide yourself out about eight or nine feet before you could get to your feet. You had to slide down and slide out. Of course you know you was locked in the turret. You locked yourself with a clip at the back and just clipped it and that. And if you were probably badly wounded — if you couldn’t undo it you was buggered. You couldn’t get out the turret.
TO: Can you please explain to me the procedure for boarding the bomber and taking off for a mission?
HI: Well it wasn’t a lot in it actually. The crew. The WAAF driver used to drop you at your aircraft. And then the ground crew would be there. And all you would do was. It all depends how long you’ve got before take-off. If you had, if you were on one of the early crews you’d be on the outside of the aircraft. I think nearly everybody smoked them days. They was all puffing, puffing on fags until they got in. And set the fags out and climbed in the aircraft. And the bomb aimer would start checking the — yeah. The flight engineer would start checking his stuff. The two gunners would be make sure the guns are working well and the ammunition was coming up. And then we was just wait for the signal. I’d pull up the ladder. Slam the door and then trundle down to the starting point which was a big cabin. And you used to wait for the yellow light. The green light to go on and off you went. You’d circle the aerodrome till you got to a nice height and then off you went. You was on your own, on your Jack-Jones. We had to keep looking out for other aircraft in case they came too close to you. But there was never never never any formation flying of a night time. Never. Never.
TO: Did you ever do formation flying during the day?
HI: Never. Well, I told you we’d done two daylights. All we were — one big group of ninety Lancs just flying along at thirty foot. There was no formation flying or nothing. There were just one gaggle, what we called a gaggle. And if the fighters had got amongst us we’d have had it. But we were so lucky with that Le Creusot raid. To go all the way there and back without seeing a fighter was incredible. We were right across France. And there must have been hundreds of fighters there.
TO: Was there, I know you mentioned that you didn’t talk about missions but was there anyone who ever said that they thought that the bombing wasn’t - the bombing or the tactics weren’t working?
HI: No. I never heard that ever. Never. All I ever heard was we were going over to bomb the target and that was it. There was never any mention of tactics not working. Never. Only until after the war. And now they realise that bombing was very very important. It was through the bombing that really stopped the Germans. Stopped all their, stopped all their production. All their production.
TO: And what was the procedure for coming in to land at the end of a mission?
HI: That was, that was difficult because you was tired , you were bloody cold, and you were wanting to get down. You’d seen everything. You’d seen some terrible things happening in the air and the trouble was you’d all rush back to try to try to get, try to be the first to land. And the trouble was there would be about fifteen of you all circling the ‘drome at different heights waiting to come in and it was bloody tiring. Because you were tired anyway especially with an eight or nine hour flight. It’s not only the eight or nine hours flight it was the hours before preparing before you went. It could be a long long long day and when you come back everybody was trying to get back first. The first one back landed first and all the others had to queue up. Flying round and round and round until it was their turn. What we called pancake. And you just came down. Once you landed oh, take your mask off and just relax. Yeah. Some of those raids were terrible I’ll tell you. You never knew if you was coming back or not. Never.
TO: And were you ever scared?
HI: Always scared. You had to be. You weren’t human if you weren’t. With that amount of flak that was coming up. You can’t explain to people the amount of artilleries shells that were coming up. Hundreds of them over the target. Hundreds of them. And on top of that you had to watch out for the night fighters. You had to watch out for blokes dropping bombs on you. You had to watch out for collisions. And on top of that you had to find your way home [laughs] and that was a bit difficult sometimes. We’d be flying. Where the bloody hell are we? ‘Skipper I don’t know where we are.’
TO: Did you talk much with each other during a mission?
HI: No. No. All we talked about was the business. Nobody, there was no — I don’t know about other crews but most crews I suppose, everybody kept quiet until they had something to say. Which is most, which is most important. You don’t want a lot of chat in the aircraft while you’re flying on ops. You want to be as quiet as possible. You never know.
TO: And did you socialise a lot outside of missions?
HI: Only with, with the crew. We always went out. If we went out anywhere it was always with the crew on the beer. We was always drinking. Always. Most of the aircrew were drinkers. Except my pilot. Stubbs. He never drank, never smoked and he never went out with women. But by God could he swear when we was on ops. His language [laughs] his language was absolutely vile. What he didn’t call the bomb aimer. The flight engineer. He never swore at me though. And you couldn’t swear back at him — he was a flight lieu [laughs] yeah.
TO: Slight digression here. Bernie Harris the chap I mentioned to you earlier.
HI: Yeah.
TO: He said, I think he said there was a member of his crew who could swear for about thirty minutes without repeating the same word and once accidentally there was some kind of radio error.
HI: Yeah.
TO: Started swearing for thirty minutes straight in to it. When there was some senior officers on the radio or something. And apparently there was, oh sorry, also some young WAAF with them at the time. He nearly fainted when she made the call. Yeah. That’s —
HI: Yeah.
TO: And, sorry you mentioned on the first mission you had to make a second bomb run.
HI: Yeah.
TO: Was that common?
HI: Not really. But this pilot, he was a good pilot and he liked to, liked to have everything right. It had to be straight. And if we’d have gone in and he hadn’t got the aiming point and he took the photograph. We come back with no aiming point. The raid wouldn’t have counted anyway. That’s why we went around again. Second run. It was dangerous but there you are. I always said it was like doing two trips in one.
TO: This is more a speculative question but do you think anything could have been done during the war to reduce the losses Bomber Command were suffering?
HI: Yeah. Had the turret. Had the turret underneath the aircraft. If they’d had the turret underneath the aircraft they would have saved a hell of a lot of aircraft. A hell of a lot. Then again I don’t know where they could have put a turret underneath a Lanc. You had your bomb bay which took up say eight tenths of the area underneath. And then you had your H2S. There was no room for a turret. No room at all unless you took the H2S out or you made the bomb bay smaller. The Yanks had it because their bomb bay was — they never carried hardly any bombs anyway. They only had a small area for their bombs. And we had a huge, well you know, they had the huge room underneath. It was enormous.
TO: And what did you think of German aircraft of the war?
HI: The what?
TO: The German aircraft of the war.
HI: Well they were good. Yeah. They were very good. Yeah. The only thing is the Germans never had a heavy bomber did they? They never had a heavy bomber. The bombers, the JU88 and the Messerschmitt 110 they turned into night fighters because they could stay up in the air, you know. About six or seven hours cruising about. But they never had no, and actually there was only the two bombers they had, the JU88 and the 110. And they couldn’t carry no bomb load. They carried a thousand pounder and that was it. Not like the Lanc.
TO: And how was morale in general in the air force?
HI: It was alright. Yeah. It was alright. Yeah. No one ever moaned. They knew that they’d, most of them knew that they wasn’t going to come back. That’s the most amazing thing of the war I think. They all knew. Most of them knew they wasn’t going to come back. Which was incredible. Incredible. To prove that everyone used to write a last letter. I never. But most of them did. Used to write a last letter home. They knew they wasn’t going to survive. They had to do thirty trips. It wanted some doing and come back every time. Wanted some doing. Yeah.
TO: Did people ever talk about friends that they’d lost?
HI: No. Not really. No. No. I’ll tell you the word they used to use. I’ll tell you now, was, ‘Gone for a shit.’ That was it. Nothing else was said. ‘Oh, where’s so and so today?’ ‘Oh they went for a shit last night.’ And that was it. Or got the chop. That was it. Never discussed no more. Another crew would come in. Same thing.
TO: Did you ever go to the cinema much during the war?
HI: No. Very rarely went. Very rarely. The thing for bomber crews was going up the pub and getting drunk. I suppose a few went — oh I think I went once or twice but mostly we used to end up in the pub. In the pubs in Lincoln. Mostly Lincoln. The Saracens Head. It was packed. Packed with bomber crews. Packed every night.
TO: And the newspapers that you had during the war. Did you ever read what they were saying about bomber crews?
HI: No. There wasn’t much spoken about the bomber crews. Not a lot. Not a lot. There wasn’t a lot of information about them. There was no publicity about them anyway. Only now and again when one of them won the VC but that not a lot. The bombing just carried on quietly. The government knew what was going on that was it. They public didn’t know. Only around Lincoln when they used to see about three or four hundred Lancs circling Lincoln ready to go.
TO: Was it very cramped aboard the aircraft?
HI: Well in the rear turret it was yeah. In the rear turret. And the mid-upper was very cramped, very very cramped. No room. No room for movement at all — the time you got your clothing on. And you had a seat a hard seat. I think it was armour plated seat we had and it was as hard as anything. Apart from that it was only because we were so young that we took it. But the oxygen used to make your throat and mouth terrible dry. You was breathing through a rubber oxygen mask — the smell of the bloody rubber. Yeah. Yeah. How I managed it I don’t know but I did. Incredible.
TO: If you want to take another break we can.
HI: No. I think I’ll have another drink. You’re making me bloody thirsty. Do you want another tea? Yeah?
[recording paused]
TO: So where did you keep the parachutes aboard the planes?
HI: It was on a piece of elastic outside the rear turret. About six foot back. There was a holder there and you put it in there and put a elastic, a piece of elastic held it. Sometimes it held and sometimes it didn’t.
TO: And did you hear much about what the Germans were doing in Europe during the war?
HI: No. Nothing at all. Nothing at all. Never heard about the atrocities or anything. Never. There was never no publicity about it. None at all. Only after the war we realised that a few of them ended up in Auschwitz. A few of our prisoners of war ended up in Auschwitz. That’s about all I know.
TO: Have you ever visited any concentration camps?
HI: Yeah. I’ve been to Auschwitz. And after I’d come out from there I had a clear conscience. Honestly, I did. I had a bit of a conscience before about the bombing but when I went there and see what actually happened that was it. Last year I went there. Yeah.
TO: And were they, was it a 303 guns you were on?
HI: They were all 303s.
TO: And were they very effective?
HI: Useless. Bloody useless. Unless you got them like I did. About thirty — about twenty or thirty yards away. But apart from that they were useless. I think the gunners shot down a few but not a lot. They didn’t have to come in anyway. They had 20 millimetre cannon. And they could stand off and belt away at you and you just had to look at them.
TO: And did your plane ever actually get lost?
HI: Yeah. A couple of times we got lost. We sort of circled around and looked around until we see a, some sort of point that we could lock on to you know. The favourite point was a river or a, or the coastline. But you did get lost. A few times you did got lost. Especially after coming out the target you was bloody lost anyway. You had to set your course again from, from the target. And you were jumping and diving about. We had a good navigator. He was alright. And of course once we got H2S that helped us tremendously but they never, they never got that ‘til the later part of that war. It was brilliant. That showed you right, the outline of all the towns, coastline and rivers through dense fog. It was brilliant.
TO: And was that with equipment like Gee?
HI: Gee we had and that took us to the Dutch coast. And then the Germans blocked it. It was useless after that. We had to make our own way. And of course all we hoped for we could see the Ruhr Valley. When you got to the Dutch coast how far was the Ruhr Valley? Half an hour away by plane. It wasn’t far. And we just headed out on that direction and you were soon over the Ruhr Valley. And you knew when you was over the Ruhr Valley with the bleeding guns firing at you. But they never opened up properly until you started dropping the bombs on the target. They kept quiet. And of course they used to have the — I don’t know if you know it. They used to light huge fires outside the town. Huge fires. To make out it was a town burning so we’d bomb that. Which a few of them did.
TO: I didn’t know about that.
HI: It was open fields in the country. But it was mainly —
[Phone ringing]
HI: Is that me again?
TO: Yeah.
[recording paused
TO: Sorry, could you just —
HI: It’s five to two.
TO: I mean what time do you leave?
HI: Oh I’ve got to leave here at 4 o’clock.
TO: Ok. I’ll definitely be done long before that.
HI: Pardon?
TO: I’ll definitely be finished long before that.
HI: I hope so because I’ve got to get ready as well.
TO: Ok. Sorry. And did the accuracy of bombing improve during the war?
HI: Immensely. When we got radar and H2S and Pathfinding it improved immensely. Accurately. Yeah. Yeah. And there was no problem with — the targets always used to be well alight when we got there anyway. And it was just a matter of dropping your bombs and getting out without being shot down. That was the problem. Getting away without being shot down. Yeah.
TO: What, what missions specifically do you remember the most of the war?
HI: Well the, the most vivid mission of all was the daylight raid on Le Creusot. Which was fantastic. To go right across France in ’42. Bomb. Bomb the target and come all the way back without seeing a fighter was incredible. That’s the most impressive one I know, and the bombing was very very accurate.
TO: Did you ever bomb German ships in ports?
HI: Well only Wilhelmshaven and Bremen and the Kiel. We don’t know. We just bombed the ports. I don’t know. I don’t say we hit a ship or not. I know 9 Squadron sank the Tirpitz. I know that. But I wasn’t there at the time.
TO: So, can you tell me which squadrons were you in during the war?
HI: Number 9 Squadron. Still flying now. They’re out in Syria. Number 9. 466. 158 Squadron.
TO: And did you hear about the invasion of Normandy?
HI: Well I don’t know about heard about. We see it was, we knew it was happening because the amount of aircraft in the air. Huge armadas of aircraft going over. So we knew, we knew the war was on. I was in Kent at the moment. At the time. Flying drogues. And we see it all happening there yeah. But I wasn’t involved in it anyway. Not ‘til later on. When I went back on my second tour.
TO: Sorry what — can you tell me again? What was your rank in the air force?
HI: I was a warrant officer. I was offered a commission but I wouldn’t take it. I don’t know why. I was silly. I should have taken it. I’d have ended up at least a flight lieu. But I, I didn’t refuse it. I just didn’t — all my mates took it and they all became commissioned but I didn’t take it. I don’t know why. I was happy as I was so that was it. I should have done though.
TO: And what was probably the most dangerous of the German fighters?
HI: The night fighter? The most dangerous was the JU88. Definitely. That was equipped especially for night fighting. It had all the radar on it. Heavy cannons. They had the Messerschmitt 110. That was a good night fighter. And the Messerschitt 109 they used. And the Focke-Wulf 190. Single engine. They used that mostly over the target especially if a bloke was caught in the searchlights. They’d just go straight for him. Bang. Yeah.
TO: If you got caught in a searchlight was it possible to get out of it?
HI: Very very difficult. Very very difficult. The only way to get out of the searchlights which we’d done several times was put the nose down like that and go starboard or port and hoping you could clear it. Sometimes, sometimes you did and sometimes you couldn’t. We used to see them captured you know with about fifteen searchlights on one aircraft. And then all the guns would open up and all you’d see was a great big puff of explosion and the smoke and that was another one gone. Simple as that. So, best to keep away from it if you could. But the one radar, the one that was run by radar you couldn’t get away from. It just went bang like that. Straight on an aircraft. No messing about. And once that got you five or six of the ordinary searchlights would come — because the radar one was blue and all the searchlight ones were white. And they just used to group you like that. The flak would come up. An enormous amount of flak. Bang. You didn’t stand a chance.
TO: Did, was your aircraft ever caught in searchlights?
HI: Yeah. We was caught a couple of times but lucky enough we done the dive and the turn and got away with it. But sometimes that was very difficult because sometimes you had your bomb load on and you fell. You fell like a stone and you hoped it would bloody well pull out at the end.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing on the day that the war ended?
HI: Yeah. I’d finished flying and I was, they’d posted me up to, after I had done me second tour they posted me up to, up to Scotland as an instructor. And I didn’t fancy it and then they posted me down to Blackpool. I was at Blackpool when the war finished. Being trained. Being changed to another duty because they didn’t want us no more in Bomber Command and we had to do ground staff duties. And they said to me, ‘What was you?’ I said, ‘I’m a tailor.’ They said, ‘We’ve got a job for you.’ And they put in charge of about twenty WAAFs on sewing machines down at Newmarket. That’s how I finished the war. And they treated the aircrew, they treated bomber crews diabolical. Absolutely. A lot of them lost their rank. They just said you’re not a flight sergeant no more. You’re an AC2 or an LAC. I thought it was shocking. Anyhow. But it didn’t, they couldn’t do that with me because I had the DFC up and I couldn’t walk about with a DFC as an odd, as a flight sergeant. So I was left. I was left as a warrant officer.
TO: Why do you think Bomber Command were treated the way they were?
HI: That I don’t know. That I do not know. I’ll never, I can never understand it and I never will. We won the war. We definitely won the war for bomber, for Britain. With our losses were horrendous and yet after the war they absolutely [clap] on us. Yeah. I think it was terrible. They treated us terrible. All the bomber crews were walking about after the war doing menial jobs. Sweeping up. Driving vans. Anything. They didn’t know what to do with us. What they should have done was demobilise us straight away. Said, ‘Alright. You’re finished. Go home.’ No. They had to wait another year doing menial jobs. There you are. And they wouldn’t give us a medal. Can you understand it?
TO: Can I understand it?
HI: Pardon?
TO: Can I understand why they were treated that way?
HI: Yeah. Can you understand why they never gave us a medal?
TO: No.
HI: The barbers got medals. The man that swept the roads got medals. The one that cleaned the toilet got medals. Bomber Command got nothing. Never. I don’t understand it. I don’t know. We should have got a campaign medal. We never got one. Which was terrible when you think of the men we lost. The men we lost. So all them men we lost in the war — all they’ve given them is a thin brass bar. That’s all they got. No medal. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible.
TO: And what do you think of the Memorial we’ve got in Green Park?
HI: Oh that’s brilliant. We made that ourselves. We made it. Not the government. We got no help at all from the government. I’ll tell you what happened. I was in the office and we got six and a half million pound collected easy. And who should walk in the office was two geezers from the VAT. They said, ‘We understand you’ve got six and a half million pound voluntary contributions.’ We said, ‘Yeah.’ They said, ‘A million of that is VAT,’ and they took it. There and then. And said, ‘We demand that you pay,’ and we made such a fuss of it and we got on to The Telegraph and we got the million pound back off the government — as a gift. They gave us our own money back as a gift. I think it’s disgraceful. All the money was for was for a Memorial. Nothing else. And they took a million pound off us. There you are. That’s the story.
TO: But what do you think of the Memorial itself?
HI: Oh it’s beautiful isn’t it? Fantastic. Yeah. And, and the Westminster Council said nobody will ever visit that memorial. It’s the most sought after memorial in the whole of London. More people visit that than any other memorial or, or museum. And the council said nobody — they didn’t want it. Didn’t want no memorial for Bomber Command. Can you understand it? Yeah. So that’s why I was so bitter.
TO: Did you ever — during the war did you ever feel any animosity towards Germany itself?
HI: No. Not really. No. No. Not really. No. No. We just went over. We knew what we were doing. We knew what we were doing. No. Not really. We couldn’t could we really? We were over there and back. We had nothing against the Germans. But after the war when we realised what they had got up to yeah but not before. Not during the war because we didn’t know anything about the camps. We felt sorry for the Germans being bombed like they were. Which we knew we was bombing. But we just carried on. Carried on ‘til the war finished and that was it.
TO: And how do you feel today about Germany?
HI: Well, they’re the same as us now aren’t they? No problem. They’re not going to be aggressive no more are they? We hope [laughs] What I’ve seen of the Germans they’re quite nice people. But there you are.
TO: What do you think of the atomic bombs being used against Japan?
HI: A good thing. A very good thing. In fact, in the long term — long and short term they saved millions and millions of lives. Because if they’d have invaded Japan there would have been millions of Japanese killed and many many thousands of Americans and British. They would have been slaughtered in an invasion. The bomb stopped it like that. Clear as that. Bang. Two bombs and the war was over. And the thing was what a lot of people don’t seem to realise — the Germans were on the verge of atomic bomb. And that’s why all the industrial places in Germany were being bombed. Because this government knew that they was on the doorstep of making the bombs themselves. They were nearly there. And they would have used it. Because they was desperate. They would have had one on Moscow and one on London. Definitely. Yeah.
[pause]
HI: You’re not killing the flies very well. I’m not having you around here no more.
TO: No. I got one. One.
HI: You got one. Yeah.
TO: Sorry. Now, how do you feel today about your wartime service?
HI: Not all that. All I know is I killed many many many people but as soon as I went to Auschwitz and that changed my view. Before that I had a guilty conscience of it because I knew I’d killed many many people but then I went to Auschwitz and seeing what was going on myself that was it. Finished. It was terrible. Have you been to Auschwitz aint you?
TO: No. No.
HI: You want to go there. You come out a different man I’ll tell you.
TO: I have however watched plenty of footage of all the camps when they were liberated.
HI: Yeah but you want to go there. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. What they done to those poor Jews. Babies, children, women. And we would have been the next ones on the list if they had got over the here. The Dutch suffered enough. I’ll tell you. They really suffered. The Dutch. And they’re more or less German and they suffered terrible.
TO: And did you — sorry, just keeping an eye on the time. Did you lose quite a few friends during the war?
HI: Pardon?
TO: I’m sorry to ask this but did you lose quite a few friends during the war?
HI: All of them. Yeah. All my friends. Yeah. All the people you knew on your squadron. By the time I’d left they’d all gone. All been killed or were prisoner of war. Mostly killed. We, we took off one night. I think we was going to Essen and we was up to six thousand feet and above us — no underneath us there was a huge explosion. Two Lancasters. One from our squadron — one from 44 Squadron hit head on with a full bomb load. And we was just above it and we went up like a bleeding lift with our bomb load. Right up we went. Enormous explosion. Yeah. And the thing was, the most amazing thing, the pilot said, ‘Alright. Set course for Essen.’ Just like that. And we could see what was happening below us yeah. But it happened a lot over Germany. Collisions. Can you imagine pitch darkness? Five or six hundred bombers in an area of about ten minutes. All ducking and diving about in pitch darkness. It had to happen didn’t it? Yeah.
TO: Did night fighters ever make head on attacks on a bomber?
HI: Never. Never made that. That’s why I don’t understand why they put a front turret in the Lancaster because it was useless. They never made a head on attack. Because the two speeds together was too fast. So won’t stretch at night time as well. They always come from, they used to come from port quarter, starboard quarter or dead astern. And of course once they got the up and under that was it. The up and under. The up and under. Schrage musik.
TO: And how do you feel today about Britain’s involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan?
HI: I think we ought to get out and leave them to it. Let them shoot their bloody selves because there’s going to be a problem. A big problem. Especially if they allow them all over here. I think so anyway. We shouldn’t allow them in this country. We should let them get on with it. They’re Moslems. Let them fight it out amongst themselves because they won’t give no thanks to the Christians for intervening. I can tell you that.
TO: And what do you think of the films that have been made about the war?
HI: Well, what I see of the films today they’re all American. That’s all you see is American films. What they done. The British never made many films. They should have made more films about Bomber Command which they never. Have you ever seen a film about Bomber Command ?
TO: I’ve seen one. The Dambusters.
HI: Well, I mean the actual bombing of Germany. No. They never made a film and they won’t because they’re gutless. The government will not accept what Bomber Command done. That’s why we are in so much trouble. They’re embarrassed. They was embarrassed with Bomber Command and yet they told us to go there. It wasn’t us. It was the government told us to go. Well they told Harris what to do anyway.
TO: As a matter of interest I do know there are, there is a team of people, though they are struggling to get funding, of independent film makers who are, they aren’t even paying the actors, who are making a film about a Lancaster bomber crew.
HI: Are they?
TO: Yeah. But they’re struggling with funding at the moment I think.
HI: Pardon?
TO: I think they’re struggling to get the money through although they are filming it.
HI: As I say what have they got? Old men. There’s no young men is there? Have Are they going to have veterans making it?
TO: Apparently I think but it might be stuck in the planning stage that they do plan to make a remake of The Dambusters.
HI: Well, that wasn’t, that wasn’t the bombing war was it? The Dambusters. That was just a one off wasn’t it and I’ll tell there there was far far more dangerous raids than the Dambusters. Berlin for instance you know what I mean. In six weeks I think we lost over nine hundred bombers over Berlin. Yeah. Essen. Dusseldorf, Duisburg, Mannheim. Hamburg. And we lost thousands.
TO: And have you visited Germany recently?
HI: Yeah. I was there last week, last year. Went to Essen. And in Essen there’s a building there. There’s a huge, what do you call it? A big huge photograph about as long as this room on a building and it shows you Essen after the war. Every building was flat. As far as you could see was flat. Except one building. The synagogue. Never got touched. And it’s still there now. It’s a museum now. Wasn’t touched. But every building in Essen was blown down except that one. Incredible.
TO: How did you actually feel when you heard the war was over?
HI: It didn’t make no difference to me. I was a youngster. I was only twenty. Twenty one when the war finished. Didn’t make no difference to me. Just the war was over and that was it. Let’s get out. And of course when I got out I had a wife and a kid and nowhere to live. Nowhere to live. I had to go and live with the in-laws for a year or so which was bleeding terrible. There you are. And the few bob they gave us and the terrible demob suits they gave us were shocking. I was a tailor and I said, ‘What’s this bloody rubbish they’ve given us?’ Yeah. I know I’m a bit cynical but there you are.
TO: Is there anything else that you want to add about your time in Bomber Command which you feel is very important?
HI: Yeah. There’s one very important thing. I survived [laughs] I survived and I mean I survived. The amount of blokes I see get the chop was unbelievable. A whole squadron. You’d lose a whole squadron in about three or four weeks. Complete squadron. It would be renewed. New Lancs. New crews. The faces got younger and we, we carried on. In fact, people, they used to come in, in the crew room and see us, and look at us, and say, ‘Have you done all those amount of trips?’ And we’d say, ‘Yeah.’ Yeah. And we survived. And I took the place of a rear gunner who got killed. And I took his place and I carried on. He was only twenty. Robinson his name was. I took his place and survived. But we lost — I’ll tell you what. That squadron I was on. Number 9 Squadron — we lost eleven hundred men killed. Eleven hundred men. And that was just one squadron. And there was only seven men in a crew. Fourteen aircraft on a squadron. Can you imagine the slaughter? Yeah.
TO: That’s almost all my questions. I’m just scanning through now. Sorry. This is going right back to the start of the war now. What did you think of Chamberlain and him appeasing Hitler?
HI: Weak man. A weak man. He was a weak man yeah. He come back with all his crappy bits of paper. Hitler was laughing his head off. We should have had a man like Hitler on our side. We could have stopped him before the war started. All the socialists and labour all they wanted to do was disarm. Don’t have no armaments. And Germany was building itself up incredibly. We had nothing. All we had was the territorial army when the war started. We just started conscription, yeah, for the twenties. We had nothing. Germany had a huge air force. Tanks. We had nothing. Anyway, we survived though didn’t we? We did survive.
TO: What did you think of Churchill?
HI: Well he done a job. He did do the job. No doubt about that. He done the job. He was the man for the job. Nobody else. But he was the man for it. But he’s — people would never forget his politics before the war when we had two or three million people unemployed. Everybody was bloody hungry. Everybody was half starving. And the rich people were living and he was one of them. But during the war he had Hitler like that. Yeah.
TO: You know the people who, I know I keep coming back to this but you know the people who refused to go on bombing missions? How do you think they should have been treated?
HI: Well personally speaking I think they should have gone to psychotic hospitals and find out exactly what was wrong with them. It was definitely a lot of them couldn’t help it. I’m telling you that the bombing raids were horrendous. I’m telling you. It was absolutely frightening. And some, as you know not everybody can take it. A few of them couldn’t take it and what they done was they stripped them down and put them in prison. Which was all wrong. LMF they called it. And when they came out of prison they put a great big stamp on their record papers — LMF. And the whole station where they was posted to knew what he was. And they couldn’t help it. They couldn’t help it. It’s a shame. So –
TO: This is going to be an odd question now. Is there anyone you know during the war who you think seemed to be losing their mind from the stress of the bombing?
HI: No. I don’t think so. I think what might have happened — some of them were very very very heavy drinkers and I think that was what was stopping them from saying they didn’t want to fly no more. There were some very very heavy drinkers. I mean heavy drinkers. If they weren’t flying they was knocking it back. But that was a thing that. They should never have punished them. They should have just said alright you don’t want to fly no more. Take you wings from you. Put you down to a lower rank. Finished. They had to humiliate them and make them as if they were a disgrace which they weren’t. They just, it was just that they couldn’t take it. They couldn’t take it. That was all there was to it. Went on a couple of raids and they see what was happening. Probably lost a few mates beforehand. That was it. Some were married with children. They said, ‘I don’t want to go over there and get killed I’ve got a wife and a kid,’ you know. There you are. But they punished them severely for it. in fact if it had been in the First World War they would have been shot. Yeah.
TO: Another slightly [pause] question from early on. Did you ever have to go in an air raid shelters during the bombing?
HI: Yeah before I — no. I never went. I never went in an air raid shelter. We lived in a block of flats. We was on the ground floor. And my mother and father said, ‘We’re alright there. We’re on the bottom floor of the flats.’ Which was ridiculous because some of the flats we blew up during the war during the war they blew the whole bleeding lot up. The time they went in an air raid shelter. A lot of people went in the air raid shelters. But the German bombing was nothing compared with what the British done. No comparison. No comparison whatsoever. We was dropping four thousand pound bombs. You know the cookie. Blast bombs. A blast bomb — it dropped. As it hit the ground it exploded. The reason for it was to blow the rooves off the houses so that the incendiaries had an easy entrance into the building which did happen. That’s why there was such huge fires. The rooves come off and then we dropped the incendiaries. And they went right through the buildings. It was a terrible war. The Germans suffered terrible. How many women and children were killed I do not know? Do not know. Shame. There you are. There you are. We had to do it. We was told to do it and that was it and we got punished after the war for it. Right. I’m afraid I’ve got to stop you because –
TO: You’re quite right because I’ve quite literally run out of questions.
HI: I’m pleased. Really pleased about that [laughs] yeah I’ll have to go.
TO: Thank you very much about your plain speaking.
HI: We’re going to drop you off at the station.
TO: Thank you.
HI: Alright.
TO: Thank you.
HI: I’ll drop you off at Romford Station. And all you do is go on the station and then take the train. I think it’s platform four. I’m not quite sure. I think it’s platform four. And that’ll take you right down to Stratford and you get out at Stratford and you get on the Tube there.
TO: Thank you. And thank you so much for your wartime service as well.
HI: That’s alright. Yeah. Pleased to help you. I’m sorry we’ve got to rush.
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AIronsH160730
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Interview with Harry Irons. Two
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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02:44:50 audio recording
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Pending review
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Tom Ozel
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2016-07-30
Description
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Harry Irons lied about his age and joined the RAF aged 16. He flew two tours of operations as a rear gunner and mid-under gunner.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Italy--Milan
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
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Julie Williams
158 Squadron
462 Squadron
466 Squadron
77 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
briefing
coping mechanism
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
final resting place
Gee
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Ju 88
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Martinet
memorial
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
perception of bombing war
RAF Driffield
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Lissett
RAF Waddington
Scarecrow
searchlight
Stirling
superstition
Wellington
Window
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3436/PJohnsonGL1703.2.jpg
b0e04e09829fa1165d2691d7c4cc044c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3436/AJohnsonG150325.2.mp3
a07acf5f6a792924aa50c3e5fc765f07
Dublin Core
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Title
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Johnson, Johnny
George Johnson
G L Johnson
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Squadron Leader George Leonard ‘Johnny’ Johnson MBE (1921 - 2022). Johnny Johnson flew operations as a bomb aimer with 97 Squadron from RAF Woodhall Spa and with 617 Squadron from RAF Scampton. On 16/17 May 1943 he took part in Operation Chastise to attack German dams with bouncing bombs. He served in the RAF until 1962 and then had a career in education. He was given an honorary doctorate by the University of Lincoln in 2017.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-08-01
2015-03-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Johnson, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is George Johnny Johnson. Mr Johnson was the bomb aimer on Lancaster AJ-T that took part in the Sorpe Dam raid on the night of May the 16th 1943. In this recording Mr Johnson recounts his memories of the events leading up to the attack, the attack itself and the events following the attack.
GJJ: As part of our training we used the Derwent Dam in Derbyshire and also the Uppingham Lake in what was then Rutland. But the Derwent had its towers and we could use those for sighting with our home-made bombsight so that our base pins were in line with the towers before we dropped our practice bombs. These were the twenty five pound smoke bombs. We also used Uppingham Lake but Uppingham Lake didn’t have any towers so they put up a couple of flagpoles for us, the authorities, and we used those as sighting devices along with our three pin, three prong bombsight. And it was that that created the similar action that we would have on the night of the operation which we didn’t know at the time of course. On the Uppingham we had to fly down the lake and sixty feet was the maximum. And we were going down there, along until we came to bomb dropping. Up and down and then up and back again. I came down again, again, right along the lake until you had the same dropping point and if you were lucky or, perhaps I should say if you were accurate your bomb dropping point would be good on all occasions. The night before the raid we were summoned into a meeting room and for the majority of the crew it was the first-time meeting Barnes Wallis and he showed us a film of his development of the bouncing bomb. And we saw this being bounced across the water as it was released, initially from Wellington aircraft but ultimately from a Lancaster aircraft. One shot that he did show in the film showed one bomb that went a bit haywire and chose its own route after it had hit the water and came straight back to the beach where they were all taking film and so on. So, that of course meant they had to get out of the way a bit sharpish before it got to them. They were, of course, inert bombs they were dropping but that sort of weight in concrete can do an awful lot of damage if it hits somebody. So, there we are. That was the film that he showed us and that explained how it was going to be necessary to drop this bomb so far away from whatever the target was going to be. We didn’t know what the target was going to be and he didn’t mention dam when he talked about the, hitting the target. He just said when it hits the target it would roll down and then explode. On the Sunday afternoon, about three o’clock, all crews were called into the operations room for briefing and man what a briefing that was. Up to that time we had no idea what the target was going to be. This was the first indication. There was a model there of the Möhne Dam, there was a model of the Sorpe but apparently the model of the Eder hadn’t been completed and so it wasn’t there. A big map on the wall showing two outward bound courses and one homeward bound course. And the people there — the AOC Sir Ralph Cochrane was there, the station commander Group Captain Whitworth. Gibson of course was there. Barnes Wallis was there, and the senior armament and engineering officers and the dear old Met man whose job was made so much easier by knowing it was going to be a brilliant moonlight night and that was going to extend not only from our take off but to our target and to our coming home. So, for once he was able to give us a correct forecast of what we could expect and when we got to the target. And Barnes Wallis explained what the targets were. And how wrong we could be in our estimations. He explained the three dams that we were going to attack. The Sorpe, the Möhne and the Eder. He also explained the difference between them. The Möhne and the Eder were very similar. They had towers and they were accessible for a head- on approach. The Sorpe of course was different. It had no towers and it was so placed in the hills that it was difficult, if not quite impossible, to make a head-on attack and the only one of those three that was defended was the Möhne. Gibson carried on with the briefing and he explained how the take-offs would be arranged and which, how many crews were taking each part. We were part of five that were scheduled to attack the Sorpe Dam. The Sorpe, of course, had to be different. No towers. Different mode of attack. And our attack had to be by flying down once, the hills on one side aiming to have port engines over the dam and flying along the length of the dam. And on that run, estimating to drop the bomb in the centre of the dam. Shortly after ten o’clock we took off from Scampton. We flew low over Lincolnshire, certainly, no more than a hundred feet, out into the moonlit North Sea. A beautiful sight. Lovely moon and a perfect, quite calm sea. And we headed for the Dutch coast. As we crossed the Dutch coast we were aware, or Joe was aware that the gunners there would be well aware that this single aircraft was coming. They’d recognise the noise and had all the other aircraft over it already, the other four, over already they’d be ready for us. And so he went down. He picked up two sand dunes and went down between those two so that we avoided the flak that they would have loved to have thrown at us. At this stage, Bill Ratcliffe, in fact he had been throughout the flight coasting the engines as much as possible so that we could make up speed and make up time having taken off so late. We, in fact, arrived there about nine minutes later than the scheduled time. We carried on across Germany into the Ruhr and eventually arrived at the Sorpe Dam. Mist was beginning to gather outside but over the target it was perfectly clear. Brilliant moonlight. And as we approached we noticed that on the side, on the hills from which we were supposed to be making the attack there was a church steeple and so Joe used this as a marker. From above that he could line the aircraft up as best he could, aiming to get the port outer engine along the dam itself and then go down to height. Because we weren’t spinning the bomb we were carrying, we were going to drop an inert bomb, we were not governed by the conditions on which that bomb had to be dropped. So, the height and speed equally didn’t matter and if I wasn’t satisfied I called dummy run. In which case we went up again and came down again. If Joe wasn’t satisfied he just pulled away and left me to call dummy run and after about the seventh — sixth or seventh of these dummy runs a voice from the rear turret said, ‘Won’t somebody get that bomb out of here?’ And I realised how easy it was to become the most unpopular member of crew in double quick time. However, we pressed on, trying to get the drop exactly right. There was no point in having gone through all that training and flown low level in bright moonlight over Germany and particularly into the Ruhr area in not getting, doing the job that you had gone to do and doing it to the best of your ability. So, we went on trying. And on the tenth run, in the meantime Joe and I hadn’t said anything to each other but I’m sure we both realised that the lower we got the less forward travel that bomb would have before it hit the water and the lower we got the easier it would be to estimate the dropping point. It was pure estimation. There was no bombsighting involved at all. So, on the tenth run we were down to thirty feet. And when I said, ‘bomb gone,’ — ‘Thank Christ,’ came from the rear turret. It was a question of nose up straight away otherwise we would have been into the hills on the other side. And so I didn’t see the explosion but Dave did in the rear turret and he estimated that the tower of water went up to about a thousand feet. Well, as you can imagine sixty five, six and a half thousand pounds explosive being exploded at a depth of twenty five feet is going to displace a hell of a lot of water and it’s going to go upwards as well as outwards. So that was quite understandable. But he also said that as it came down some of the downflow came into the turret so he thought he was going to be drowned as well as knocked about by us so and so’s at the front. But he managed to get back to normal. We circled and we discovered that we had crumbled the top of the dam for a distance of about ten yards. Barnes Wallis had told us at briefing that he estimated it would need at least six bombs to crack that dam because of its construction but if we could crack it the water pressure would do the rest and judging from the amount of water in that dam I’m quite sure he was right. However, that was only the one bomb and what we couldn’t understand was that because we were late nobody else was there when we got there and nobody else appeared whilst we were there. And this, the reason for this we didn’t find out until we got back. We circled, satisfied ourselves and set a course for home and then had perhaps the most satisfying part of the whole trip. Route out took us straight over what had been the Möhne Dam. It was just like an inland sea. There was water everywhere. We knew that it had been breached by radio broadcast but water was still coming out of the dam and this must have been twenty minutes, perhaps half an hour since the breach. We also knew that the Eder had been breached. Again, by broadcast. So we had at least the satisfaction of seeing some real results for the endeavours of that particular raid. After the excitement of seeing the result of the breach of the Möhne things calmed down but not for long. For some peculiar reason and I still have no idea why we found ourselves over a railway. Not only a railway but a marshalling yard and we were, in fact, over the Hamm marshalling yards, yard. And this, of course was the centre for the distribution of all the armaments that were made in the Ruhr to the various war areas throughout Europe. Not the healthiest of places to be in May of 1943. But once again Joe goes down and again a voice from the rear turret, ‘Who needs guns? At this height all they need to do is change the points.’ However, we eventually got out of the yard. After the marshalling yards incident we set course for home. We came back on the route that we came out on and as we were crossing the Zeider Zee, Bill Ratcliffe opened up the taps, paid in the speed so we could get out and away as soon as possible. So perhaps this is what he did and as we crossed the coast one of the gunners on the ground got a sight on us but Dave Rodger in the rear turret replied promptly with his guns and that was the last we heard of the attack. As we crossed the North Sea, eventually we could see the welcoming sight of the Lincolnshire coast and so we were able to head over for our home base at Scampton. I’m not quite sure that we went, that we went via the cathedral. I don’t recall actually having seen it but it wasn’t unusual to head for the cathedral when you crossed the coast so that you knew when you were actually almost home. We could always see the cathedral by the red light on the top and that was a welcoming light and told us we were close to home. And so we got back to Scampton. Now, Scampton was still a grass airfield and so all landings were a bit lumpy but ours was more than a bit lumpy it was really bumpy and we were starboard wing low. And the flight engineer, looking out of the Perspex said, ‘We’ve got a burst tyre skipper.’ And so we were, we taxied around to take off to the dispersal and the aircraft went off for inspection. And when the inspection team came back the leader said, ‘You guys ought to think yourselves very lucky.’ He didn’t use ‘very’ but never mind, that will describe it. He said, ‘That shot that you felt and heard went through the starboard undercarriage nacelle, burst a tyre enroute. It then went through the wing and ultimately landed in the roof just above the navigator’s head.’ How lucky. But once again we’d got away with it. Thank you, Lady Luck. That had been our night. After debriefing we began to realise that there seemed to be an awful lot of people that hadn’t come back. And it came, transpired that of the nineteen that took off, sixteen had taken part in the actual raiding since three had had to come back for various reasons. Of those sixteen, eight did not come back. Three of the crews escaped but were taken prisoner and the rest were killed. Fifty three aircrew of our squadron were killed on that one operation one night and we lost eight aircraft. That was a devastating reaction and we heard that in the operations room, when the final news was known, Barnes Wallis actually cried and said, ‘I have killed all those young men. I’ll never do anything like that again.’ But Wing Commander Gibson managed to say to him, ‘No Barnes. You didn’t kill those young men. Without you that raid could never have taken place anyway.’ He said, ‘But whenever we take off on any of these raids, we know there is a chance that we won’t be coming back and those people probably went off with that thought in mind.’ Of the nineteen aircraft that took off three had to return early, five were lost before the attacks and eleven made attacks on the dam. Of those eleven one was lost during the attack, two were lost after the attacks and eight aircraft returned from making attacks on the dams. In total fifty three aircrew were killed, three were taken prisoner and eight aircraft were lost.
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AJohnsonG150325
PJohnsonGL1703
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Interview with Johnny Johnson. One
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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00:19:33 audio recording
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Pending review
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Andrew Panton
Date
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2015-03-25
Description
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George ‘Johnny’ Johnson was the bomb aimer in Lancaster AJ-T flown by Joe McCarthy during operation Chastise 16th of May 194. He discusses the attack on the dams and the events before and after the attack. He describes training over the Derwent Dam and Uppingham Lake. He describes the challenges of the Sorpe Dam in contrast to the Möhne and Eder dams. He describes the tensions of getting the bombing run correct and the nervous words of the rear gunner. Flying home they flew over the Möhne dam and they were able to witness the devastation of the aftermath of the attack. They also flew over the Hamm marshalling yards and again Johnny describes the nervous details of that event. Johnny refers to the realisation of the heavy losses of the operation and how Barnes Wallis actually wept when he heard how many crews had been lost.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Derbyshire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Hamm (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Sorpe Dam
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1943-05-16
1943-05-17
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Julie Williams
617 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bouncing bomb
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
operations room
RAF Scampton
training
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3437/Johnny Johnson f.1.jpg
75f475f67cd0f645f9c483552b3f49d5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3437/AJohnsonGL170801-01.1.mp3
47f6fef0f79c70bd4f5a5abf59f715a2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Johnson, Johnny
George Johnson
G L Johnson
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Squadron Leader George Leonard ‘Johnny’ Johnson MBE (1921 - 2022). Johnny Johnson flew operations as a bomb aimer with 97 Squadron from RAF Woodhall Spa and with 617 Squadron from RAF Scampton. On 16/17 May 1943 he took part in Operation Chastise to attack German dams with bouncing bombs. He served in the RAF until 1962 and then had a career in education. He was given an honorary doctorate by the University of Lincoln in 2017.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-08-01
2015-03-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Johnson, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DE: Right. So, a little introduction and we’ll get cracking. So, this is an interview for the IBCC with Johnny Johnson. It’s the 1st of August 2017. We’re in Bristol. My name is Dan Ellin. Also in the room is Professor Heather Hughes, Alex Pesaro and John Sexton. Right.
HH: Thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed today. What we’d like to do, if possible, is to start off talking about your earliest memories of a childhood on a farm in Lincolnshire from 1921.
JJ: Fine. As you say, a farm in Lincolnshire. I was born in a small village called Hameringham, near Horncastle and, as such became a Lincolnshire Yellowbelly which, I gather, was so called because of all the frogs in the fens area of the county. However, I had the misfortune for my mother to die before, a fortnight before my third birthday. And the only time I can remember seeing her was in her hospital bed when we were waiting at the bottom of the stairs to go up and to see her. And my father was talking to somebody else, a stranger to me at the bottom of the stairs so I went over and joined them. I was the youngest of six children and when my father told this other individual who I was his response was, ‘What another?’ To which my father said, ‘Yes. He was a mistake.’ I remember quite clearly my father saying that, even at that young age and I’m sure that is how he treated me from then on. He was, of course, a cut throat razor shaver and the razor sharpener, the strop, hung on the back of the kitchen door. If ever that strop came down and he wasn’t shaving I knew where it was headed. That was my shoulders, my back or wherever it landed. If I was out, on one occasion even, sorry, I had to go to the local elementary school in the next village, in Winthorpe. And had to walk down there and there came a time when we left Hameringham and moved over to the borders of Nottinghamshire to a small village of Langford just outside of Newark. And [pause] sorry, I’m thinking. The lady that we had as a housekeeper at Hameringham was a lovely lady, Mrs Smith. But she couldn’t move with us when we moved. And so my father advertised for a housekeeper in the local press and a, I’m going to say female, I wouldn’t describe her otherwise, that answered had two twin daughters. She came over with the daughters as a housekeeper and before long she became the second Mrs Johnson. They never [emphasis] agreed at any time and there came a time when I heard her say to him, ‘I’ll knife you one of these days.’ That really upset me. And why, I didn’t know why I did, I used to go and sleep with my father just in case she tried it sometime overnight. ‘Cause, when they had their rows she went in to the girls’ bedroom. My bed. My bed was on the landing. Living in the other half of the farmhouse. And so that was the way it went and it just went worse until eventually I was sent off to another farming uncle in Thorpe. Thorpe on the Hill and whilst I was away they separated. She went away and when I got back she was no longer there. That meant, amongst other things, that I came responsible, became responsible for looking after the house. So much so that all the cooking that I could do and so on.
HH: Were you the only child still living at home at that stage?
JJ: At that stage, yes but it went to the time when my sister, who was seven years older than me, had virtually been my surrogate mother to start with and she was in service with a family in the next, our next village, Winthorpe. They were moving and downloading at the same time so she came to look after her father and I have to say he treated her in much the same way as he treated me. Not by beatings of course but by the demands that he made. A daughter was to look after her father the way he wanted it done. When he wanted it done. And that was the way it had to go. So, yeah, I was at, as I say, to a local elementary school in Winthorpe and the head teacher heard about Lord Wandsworth’s Agricultural College in Hampshire, Long Sutton in Hampshire, bequeathed by Lord Wandsworth for the children of agricultural families that had lost one or both parents, and she applied on my behalf. And I had an interview and was accepted but my father said, ‘No. When he’s fourteen he goes out and gets a job and brings some money into the house.’ Head teacher wasn’t at all happy about that and in that village we still had a squire and she went to see the squire’s wife and told her the story. And the squire’s wife went to see my father and told him his fortune in no uncertain terms. How he was ruining my life, particularly of a better education and a much better chance of a decent living afterwards. And so, he said, ‘I suppose I’ll let him go then.’ Reluctantly. And it wasn’t because he felt he needed to but because he knew that if he refused and the squire’s wife went back and talked to the squire about it his job would be on the rocks without any trouble at all. And so, we got away with it and I went off to Lord Wandsworth’s College. What a place to go to. The first time I’d been away from home travelling from Newark to London. Met there by the secretary from the school and taken on to a train ride to Hampshire and then by coach to the college. In the junior school of course to start me I was eleven at that stage and the first time being means so many different boys from all parts of the world and not knowing really anything about anything.
HH: Did you speak strong Lincolnshire dialect at that time?
JJ: I did in those days, indeed I did. I did know and even though I also left so young when I left I still remember some of the dialect the local people used to use. And the one thing that sticks in mind is that when they met they didn’t say, ‘Hello. How are you? How are you doing?’ It was always, ‘How do my duck?’ and probably, ‘How do me duck? Are you alreet?’ That was the usual thing.
DE: It still is in some places.
JJ: At that stage the local people referred to our nearest town not as Horncastle but ‘Oncastle. I don’t know whether they still do. They may do. And it is the sort of thing which has stuck in my mind over the times and that I find too, useful these days in certain circumstances to introduce my talk, to whoever, particularly with school children which I do quite a lot of recently. But the sort of thing which I started there. Lord Wandsworth’s Agricultural College was a mix in that it was academic and it was also vocational. Those who could cope went through the academic side and the rest went through the — we had a large farm there and a good large garden. A big orchard. There was plenty of scope for vocational training. I managed to get through the school certificate. I say managed to get. In that you may remember you had to take eight subjects. You were allowed one failure but you had to get credits in at least one other subject for a pass. Then other things went on beyond that. I managed to scrape through and when we went back after the results had come out, back after the school holidays. Met by the headmaster who said, ‘Congratulations. How did you manage it?’ I said, ‘With difficulty sir.’ That was that. And I had, at that stage, ambition to be a vet but to do the vet’s course you had to have the, what was the word? Matriculation exam as well and you had to have a far better pass in the school certificate than I had got, in other words, to do that. So, I had to have a rethink. And I thought about being the park superintendent of a large London park. They’d got a very good garden section there. And I didn’t want anything to do with the farm. I’d had too much of that anyway. And so I went into the horticultural side and I learned quite a lot about horticulture in that time including, on one occasion, washing out the greenhouses with a nicotine solution. A very neat, tiny solution and my bottle, or my bucket, ran out and I went to get some more and as I mixed it I inhaled some of the nicotine. Oh, was I ever sick. Straight back to the hospital and in to the school hospital. And the orderly we had there -- next morning gave me a right telling off because he’d had to sit with me all night. He wasn’t sure whether I was going to live or not. So, I got my own back on him in that way but that was that. That was just a small incident in that. And so, I very much enjoyed the work in the gardens, the orchard and particularly in the greenhouses. And then as a job came up in the local park in Basingstoke and so I was interviewed for that and got it. And so I started my working life as a trainee assistant parks keeper and I was doing that. Whilst I was doing that I was billeted with a family in Basingstoke and one of the sons had his own Alsatian and my sister had always bred Alsatians. That was her real life and so I took Fred with me on holiday on one occasion and of course he took his dog. He and Lena, my sister, got to know each other and they got to know each other very well and it got to the stage where she said to my father they were thinking of getting married. And he said, ‘If you get married I shall kill myself.’ I said, ‘For goodness sake Lena he’s far too fond of life to do something like that.’ She said, ‘I know but if he did I would never be able to forgive myself.’ And that ruined her life completely. She never looked at another man after that.
HH: What happened to her? Did she stay at home with your dad?
JJ: Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. And she had got a job of her own in that during the war she was part of the ARP system. I’m not quite sure what she did. But she also became the village post lady and she cycled around on her bike delivering the mail to various places. And she kept that job for the whole of her working life apart from looking after him in his misery as well. From Langford the farmer himself died and his wife and son took over and eventually, during that time, my father got Scarlet Fever and was off work for up to six weeks and by the end of that or just before the end of that the wife said she was very sorry they couldn’t wait any longer. They’d have to appoint somebody else. So he had to get out and find more accommodation elsewhere and we went just up the road to the village of Collingham and we lived in Collingham from then onwards. Believe it or not in a place called Chapel House. It was a converted chapel but that was where we went for a while. And shortly after that, I don’t know how, my father became associated but he did, with a lady and her mother in another street in the village of Collingham. And eventually the mother died but the daughter then from selling the bungalow that they lived in used that money to help purchase the new house my father and sister had got and joined them there. And then again for some reason which I never found out she suddenly wasn’t there anymore. She left and that was it. And so there we were. A nice house. It was a nice house. It was semi-detached but four bedrooms and had every convenience. No, it didn’t [laughs] it didn’t have any conveniences. Gas central, gas lighting. No electricity. No hot water apart from the boiler attached to the fire and that was it. And so that was where we lived for some time. And then I was, having been at Basingstoke for almost a year, the war had started before I joined there. I thought I ought to be getting in to this. And basically, I don’t know why, but it was a personal hatred of Hitler and the terrible damage that he had done to this country in that time and I needed to do something. I needed to do my share about it. So, I volunteered for the air force in the June. But I didn’t want to be a pilot. I didn’t think I had the aptitude or the coordination to be able to do it properly. And I wanted to go on the bomber side and I knew that the bomber pilot was responsible not only for flying the aircraft but for the safety of the crew as a whole and I thought maybe I was a bit young for that anyway. So I didn’t want to be a pilot but the selection committee thought differently and they recommended me for pilot training.
HH: Can I ask why you wanted to be on the bomber side?
JJ: I think — to get my own back on Hitler. That was the only way I could put it at that stage. Eighteen years old. That sort of thought was prominent in my mind and then I had to wait. This was in the November 1940 and I volunteered in June but got through the interviews but then the medical came. I had a hernia. So they said, ‘Go back and get that fixed and come back in six months’ time.’ So off I went. Had the operation. I thought maybe I could live out that six months but the letter came very shortly telling me to report back to Cardington in November of that year. And I thought I’d go through the same procedure again but no. ‘You’re in son. Go and get your uniform.’ That’s it. And so I was in. Went through the usual recruit training and I had no idea of getting any aircrew training coming up. My first appointment was Harlaxton in the Grantham area which was a flying school there. And they were flying [pause] oh dear [pause] battledresses? Battle? No. what did they call them? Anyway, pretty — the only, I suppose, modernish aircraft.
DE: Battles.
JJ: That’s it. That we had at that time and my job was to sit in the flight office and take hourly weather reports and phone it through to the Met Office so they could construct their forecast. Boring as hell. And then added to guard duties probably in the evening and night. And we had a satellite station across the way and I can’t remember the name of it but we used to have to go over there on guard duties. And one thing I remember about that place is that one night, sitting there after having done my two hours, sitting in the hut and one of the bed frames was propped up against the wall and I looked around and I saw a rat behind it. I quickly put, fixed my bayonet. End of rat and that was it. At least I made use of my bayonet on one occasion. But there we go. And then eventually down to Babbacombe for the Aircrew Receiving Centre and the start of the aircrew training. And that was where, in the first place if I can put it — I met my doom. We were billeted in hotels and my roommate and I were walking out on the street one evening and these two young ladies were walking towards us. I was the shy, retiring one but for some unknown reason said, ‘Are you going our way?’ And this voice said, ‘That depends on which your way is.’ That was Gwyn and that was our meeting and that was how it started. Quite an amazing sound that was. But then the aircrew training came along. I was posted down to Newquay to ITW and during that time Gwyn decided to join the WAAF and she became a telephone watcher in the — telephone operator in the WAAF. And we went from ITW to up north to wait for a ship to take us either to America or to Rhodesia for pilot training. I was going to America and there, there were two training systems. We had our own British flying training schools and the rest were organised by the American — American Army Air Corps. And of course at that stage America had no thought of being in the war at all. And I could not take the American Army Air Corps but I got one of their stations. Nice posting. Arcadia in Florida. But I could not stand their petty discipline. First thing. When you made your bed you had to fold the top blanket and the bottom at exactly forty five degrees and the inspecting officer would go around with a protractor and make sure it was forty five degrees and if it wasn’t — stripped off and you did it again. And their marching. That really got up my nose. So sloppy it didn’t mean a thing. However, we carried on. Fortunately, the instructors were civilians. Very pleasant people. And believe it or not I managed to solo but my landings weren’t what they might have been. And so he said, ‘I’m sorry,’ one day, ‘I’m sorry old son. I don’t think you’re going to make it.’ I said, ‘Don’t be sorry. Neither do I.’ So that was that. About ten of us washed out pilots were then posted, again on the American Army Air Corps to Maxwell Field in Montgomery. And we weren’t supposed to talk going to breakfast so we sang, “Colonel Bogey.” I don’t know if you know that but if you do you shouldn’t maybe but that was how we went into breakfast. On our last day — our senior bod was a flight sergeant gunner who’d been hoping to be accepted and made it He said, ‘Let’s show these so and so’s how to march.’ And so we fell in, RAF style, outside the dining room and we marched back to the billet a hundred and sixty paces a minute with arms swinging forward and backwards, waist high — and the looks we got as we went along. At least we felt we’d left our mark on Maxwell Field and that was that. Gave us that much satisfaction. It was, anyway, back to Canada and wait for a troop ship to bring us home. I joined in November of 1940. I landed back in this country in January 1942 no nearer to fighting that war that I’d joined for than I had been when I joined. So it was the shortest course and it was gunnery. So I did the gunnery course. I managed to get through that but instead of being posted to an OTU like other aircrew where you mixed up, formed your crews and then went off for further training I was posted straight out to 97 Squadron at Woodhall as a spare gunner. Which meant I had to fly with anyone who hadn’t got a mid-upper or a rear gunner for that night’s operation. Quite an inauguration in to operational flying but we managed to get by but at that stage 97 had just been re-equipped with Lancasters and they were looking for the seventh member of crew. The bomb aimer. And they were training them at a local station. And since it made a difference between seven and six and twelve and six a day I thought I’d have a go at that and so I re-trained as a bomb aimer. And then came back to the squadron as a spare bomber aimer and after I’d done about ten trips all around I was told I was joining this crew with an American pilot. My immediate thought was — Oh my God. Americans again. Then I met Joe McCarthy, at that stage a flight lieutenant. Six foot three and breadth to go with the height. Big in size, big in personality but one we discovered, to our great confidence, big in pilot ability. Absolute. I never thought that Joe wouldn’t bring me back from any trip. And my goodness, he didn’t. But that was, I think, maybe it might have been something to do with my barely five foot seven looking up at his six foot three we just seemed to gel and we became the best of friends. On duty he was the pilot. I was the bomb aimer. We had our jobs and that was it.
HH: You had quite an international crew, didn’t you?
JJ: We did indeed. We had the navigator and the rear gunner were both Canadians. The flight engineer was, although in the RAF at that stage had been to America as a child. His parents had emigrated and then his mother and his grandmother brought him back later in life but he had nationalised, nationalised Canadian business whilst with the family whilst he was out there. That left just three of us. The American pilot of course. English. The wireless operator was the daddy of the crew. He was thirty. And then the mid-upper gunner was just a year my senior. And that was the three of us. However, we got on very well as a crew. I think, I have to say the attitude of the majority of the Bomber Command crews who, most of which were volunteers anyway was they’d volunteered to do what they could about this war and to do the job, whichever their job was, to the best of their ability and I’m sure the majority of them did that all the time. From my point of view, on the normal bombing raids where initially you was in the dark, out of moon you saw nothing until you got to the target area and you saw all the guns that you’d got to go through before you came home. But once you started the bombing run my concentration was on the bomb sight and the marker or whatever the target was and it stayed just on that line. What was going on outside didn’t mean a thing to me. I didn’t feel it. I didn’t see it and I just got on with the job that I was supposed to do. And then when bombs gone we had to fly straight and level so that the camera could take a picture of where our bombs had dropped. So, there was no point in saying we dropped somewhere near the target if we’d lobbed the bombs off before we got there or somewhere near because they’d have been shown up on the camera. However, that was it. After that it was nose up and home as fast as —
HH: Did you ever have any idea how dangerous it all was for the aircrew?
JJ: No. I sometimes think. No, I’ll put it this way. I’m asked occasionally, ‘Were you ever frightened?’ And I said, well from that description I give of arriving at the target. Certainly for the first time anyone who wasn’t a bit apprehensive was either devoid of emotion or was a stranger to the truth. One of the early television programmes I did the director asked me that question and I gave him the same answer. He said, ‘In other words they were bloody liars.’ I said, ‘Well if that’s the way you want to put it.’ When they produced that television programme that’s the only part of that conversation that was put in and I rang him up and said, ‘Look, what are my ex-comrades going to think of that young whipper snapper referring to them all as bloody cowards.’ He said, ‘Johnny that’s television. There’s a sensational bit. Sorry but that’s the way it goes.’ And they also did the American version and that opened up with my picture and that statement straight away. I felt a bit hard about that but there we are. That’s television. You’re subject to whatever they want to produce in the end. However, we managed to get by and we got to the stage where we were very close to the end of our first tour. In those days you did — a first tour was thirty trips and at the end of that thirty trips you got a week’s leave and then you went on to either a ground tour or a non-operational flying tour. Well, having anticipated this, this leave, this week’s leave, my fiancé and I arranged to get married on the 3rd of April. In the meantime, Wing Commander Gibson rang Joe and asked him would he consider joining a special squadron that he was forming for one special trip. And Joe said, ‘I’ll have to ask the crew,’ which he did and we agreed to go with him. I wrote, or told Gwyn [down in Devon?] about this reorganisation and the answer I got was, ‘If you’re not there on the 3rd of April, don’t bother.’ I thought aye aye, the first mandate’s been issued. And there we go. So that was how we came to be part member of what was known then as Squadron X and we moved over to Scampton. Again, a date I will always remember – March the 27th – and the first thing we heard was — no leave. Oh God, there goes my wedding. Again, Joe in his inimitable style took us up to Gibson’s office as a crew and said, ‘We’ve just finished our first tour. We’re entitled to a week’s leave. My bomb aimer’s supposed to be getting married on the 3rd of April and he’s going to get married on the 3rd of April.’ Oh my God. A flight lieutenant talking to the wing commander like that. But what I didn’t know was that Joe had done some training with one of Gibson’s training units and so Gibson knew something about him and had, obviously, enough confidence to ask him would he join that crew. Incidentally, the fact that Gibson selected all the crews is not right. He selected his one or two people that he knew of, notably from 106 Squadron which he commanded before he moved over and the rest were appointed by the wing commanders on each squadron. 5 Group was the group. In that Group were asked to recommend on or two experienced pilots from crews for this exercise and that’s how the crews were selected basically. So we got our leave. I got my wedding. Just. Basically we got, on the morning of the wedding, a choir boy came around to the house on the morning of the wedding with a message from the vicar which said because Gwyn was only eighteen at that stage. A lady at that time under the age of twenty one had to have both parents’ permission to get married and her father was in North Africa with the army. Fortunately, nan was able to find a letter in which he had agreed to the wedding taking place so we got away with it again and that was it and we got our wedding eventually. And there we are. And I would add, at this stage, that lasted for sixty two and a half years. So, I have a lot to be thankful for in that. However, we got our leave and then we had the experience of joining 617 Squadron as it was now called. One thing that surprised us again was the experience of the majority of the crews. Many of them having completed their first tour. Some on their second tour and just a few who were not that experienced but recommended by their wing commanders. We were told by Gibson that we would not be told what the target was. He didn’t know and neither would we know until much later but it was a special operation and again was going to, it had been said that it would make a difference to the war effort and training would be low level. It was great. Having done bombing operations at ten, twelve, fifteen thousand feet in the dark and certainly above cloud and then being able to fly down. A hundred feet was the prescribed height but very seldom was that achieved. It was usually just a little bit below that and lying in the front I had the best, the best seat as it were. Lying down in the front of the aircraft just seeing the ground whizzing past was so exhilarating, it was quite tremendous. I don’t know — you may know Sutton Bridge in Lincolnshire. I believe so-called because the road bridge crosses a canal on the way in to the town but as you fly up from the south the electric cables also cross the canal and the practice, not briefed, but undertaken each time we came across that town was to go underneath the cables and up over the bridge. Wonderful. It really was. Absolutely first class. One of the residents here could tell me that she had an aunt who lived in Sutton Bridge at that time and she said the whole of the population were scared stiff about all these low flying aircraft that were going about. That’s war dear. You know, that’s one of those things. Anyway, that was one of the things. Bomb aimers had to make their own bomb sights and it consisted of a triangle of plywood with a peg in each angle but the distance between the base pins had to be specific and the distance from the apex had to be specific. On the bombing range they arranged two poles. Again, specific distances apart and the idea on a bombing practice was that the bomb aimer would hold a single pin to his eye and direct the pilot until the two base pins were in line with the poles. Drop the bombs. Practice bombs I hasten to add. And that was that. If you got it right — fine. If you didn’t you did it again and again and again until you got it right. And then we also used some of the reservoirs in this country. Notably Derwent Water in Derbyshire and we used the towers there as the marking points and a marker in the reservoir itself showed roughly where the bombs should drop. And I sometimes wonder how the Sheffield people felt about what was happening to their drinking water being mutilated by practice bombs being dropped but we never heard any comments about it so that was that. In the meantime the special aircraft had arrived. Lancasters, yes. But no mid-upper turret. The bomb doors appeared to be absolutely sealed and these two legs sticking down either side, one either side of the fuselage just behind the nose and one of them had a bevelled wheel on the, at the end of it. And then the bomb arrived. Just like a large glorified dustbin but at least it gave us the indication as to what those legs were for. Quite obviously that is how the bomb was going to be carried. Latched in to those legs. We went on various cross countries and I never understood, oh, sorry — we had no navigation aids so navigation was done by map reading and dead reckoning. Navigator and bomb aimer each had a map. The navigator would tell me what he expected me to see. If I saw it that was fine. If I didn’t I could pick out something else conspicuous and he could, if necessary alter his course accordingly. And that was how we got around. What I could never understand was how you were supposed to map read over the North Sea because one of the turning points was over the North Sea. You had to guarantee that the point you left this coast was the right one. That your dead reckoning out to the point and back again was accurate and you hit our coast in the right place coming back. Fortunately, we seemed to make it fairly regularly and got away with it and that was that. And having gone through all that we then moved on to what was a twilight situation where the front of the aircraft — the cabin and the whole of the front were covered in blue sheeting and the pilot and the bomb aimer wore night given, sorry night vision glasses. So it created quite the twilight situation and we went through the same exercise again and it was on one of those, on our North Sea leg that I saw a dinghy in the water and two characters in it waving like mad. So, Joe told the wireless operator to wireless base with our position and the sighting of the dinghy. And a couple of days later we got a signal from the CO of, I think, a Beaufighter squadron or something similar thanking us for reporting that dinghy. The crew had had to ditch and as soon as their report was received the sea craft, safety craft went out and picked them up and got them back home so we had done something useful. And that was that. And then it was just night flying. Except it had to be night flying in brilliant moonlight and we went through the same procedures with the night flying as we had through the rest of the flying. And then Gibson thought we were ready to go but it didn’t really depend on him. And so I have to say at this stage we still didn’t know what the target was going to be. On the Saturday night we met in the ops room as a squadron. Met Barnes Wallis for the first time to really meet him and he explained to us through film how he’d developed what was referred to as the bouncing bomb. Told us something about the bomb as well. It weighed nine thousand pounds of which six and a half thousand was explosive contained inside it, fused with two depth fuses which were set to explode at a depth of twenty five feet of water but it rotated backwards at five hundred revs a minute. It had to be dropped from exactly sixty feet at a ground speed of two hundred knots. All these things were achieved. For instance, the sixty foot mark was achieved by the boffins at Farnborough calculating the angles at which two lights in the starboard side of the fuselage had to be set so that when they converged that was exactly sixty feet. So, it became more of a crew exercise where the navigator, through the Perspex was watching the lights indicating up or down. The flight engineer was watching the speed and adjusting or asking the pilot to adjust and the bomb aimer was giving corrections to get the bomb sight in line with the target. So, the pilot was being told by three other members of the crew how to fly the aircraft. He didn’t seem to object too much to that because it worked out. And there we go. And so that was on the, on the Saturday night and as I say Barnes Wallis had given us this indication and still couldn’t tell us what the target was but it did mean that with that bomb sight we were dropping the bomb some four hundred and twenty five yards away from the target and it would bounce along until it hit the target which immediately raised conjectures in our minds about the target being the German battleships. Particularly the Tirpitz. Because if you’re going to drop the bombs so far away you would get away before their heavy defence was going to do you much damage. However, on the Sunday all 617 Squadron aircrew in to the operations room and then we saw how wrong you could be. And there were just two models in the brief. The Möhne and the Sorpe. The Eder model hadn’t been completed so it wasn’t there. Big map on the wall showing two routes in and one route out. I think it was the highest powered briefing I ever attended. The AOC was there. The station commander, Gibson of course was there doing the briefing. Barnes Wallis was there. The senior armaments and engineering officers from the station were there. The intelligence officer was there. And the dear old Met man was there. And so Gibson did the briefing and explained that he would take off with two others in formation and they would head for the Möhne. Shortly after him six others in two threes would leave and also head for the Möhne. If, when they then got there, the Möhne hadn’t been breached, they would attack the Möhne under Gibson’s command until it was and then move over to the Eder. Five crews, of which we were one would breach the Sorpe. And of course, the Sorpe had to be different. It didn’t have any towers so there was nothing to sight on and it was so placed in the hills that a head on attack was almost impossible. And we were briefed that we had to fly down one side of the hills with the port outer engine over the dam itself. Fly along the dam until — and estimate to drop the bomb. Sorry the bomb wasn’t being rotated at all. It was an inert drop and the drop estimate to drop the bomb as nearly as possible to the centre of the dam. Pure estimation. No sighting involved. Right. Disappointment from our point of view. We weren’t going to be able to use the bombing practices particularly that we’d been practising and we had no idea of how to carry out that type of attack until we got there but that was the job we were given so that was it. We went to the messes for the pre-operational meal of the good old egg and bacon which came out regularly. Mind you the egg was in various forms, sometimes just the powered stuff or whatever. But it was always there. And there were times when one heard of the story of, in the Sergeants’ Mess one wag saying to another one, ‘Can I have your bacon if you don’t come back?’ And that was a standard phrase that was chatted around. But then out to the aircraft and then came our great shock. Q-Queen was our aircraft. Had behaved perfectly throughout training but when we started up it created a hydraulic leak on run up. Impossible to fix before take-off and there was only one reserve aircraft. It arrived at 3 o’clock that afternoon. It had been bombed up. It had been fuelled up and it had a compass swing with the bomb on board to offset the metal of the bomb against the aircraft compasses. In his anxiety to get out I won’t use the language that he did telling us to get out as quickly as possible before someone else got there and we didn’t get to go. In his anxiety he pulled his parachute and it billowed behind him as we waddled off to the reserve aircraft. And then the real next break — the compass card which had been done on that bombing up wasn’t in the aircraft. Joe had a tremendous vocabulary. I don’t think I heard him use the same word twice but he got in to the truck in a flaming temper. Back to the flights. Fortunately when you got down there the squadron adjutant was there, Humph, who said, ‘For God’s sake Joe calm down. If you don’t you’re going to make a complete pig’s ear of the whole thing.’ Right. Now that did calm him down and our flight sergeant discip, Chiefy Powell, a very efficient man had heard Joe say that he wasn’t going to bother with a parachute so chiefy went off to the flights and collected the compass card and then detoured to the parachute section and picked up another parachute. Gave Joe the compass card in the front of the truck, pushed the parachute in the back, ‘Your compass,’ sorry, ‘Your parachute sir.’ Flight sergeant to a flight lieutenant didn’t make much difference in those days but apart from that to me it illustrated the spirit of the squadron as a whole. The ground crew were right behind the aircrew all the way. It was a very solid squadron all the way through and I think that partially depicted that effort. And so, thirty minutes late we got off. Tell me if I’m talking too much here.
DE: No. You’re doing fine. It’s wonderful stuff.
JJ: Because there was no mid-upper turret the mid-upper gunner was flying in the front turret. Fortunately, they did it in stirrups so he wasn’t kicking me up the backside all the time. But as we were going along, some miles south of Hamm a goods train was chugging along at right angles to our track and Ron Batson in the front turret said, ‘Can I have a go, Joe?’ And I think almost reluctantly Joe said, ‘Well. Yes. Alright.’ So Ron opened up with his little 303s which was all we had in the front turret. What we didn’t know was that it wasn’t just a goods train, it was an armoured goods train and it replied with rather more than 303s. We knew we’d been hit. We heard it and we felt it but it didn’t seem to impede the aircraft at all so we just carried on. And then we arrived at the Sorpe. And the first thing we saw was on the hill, on the side of the hill from which we were supposed to make the approach there was a church steeple. So, Joe, because we weren’t spinning the bomb we’re not governed by any of the conditions of dropping that bomb. So we could go as low or as fast or as slow. Whatever we could. And Joe used the church as a marker. Tried to level up from that point and we started to go down. As I say we’d never practiced this type of attack before and it wasn’t easy. If I wasn’t satisfied I called, ‘dummy run,’ and we went back up again and started again. If Joe wasn’t satisfied he just pulled away and left me to call a dummy run. After about the sixth or seventh of these a voice from the rear turret said, ‘Won’t somebody get that bomb out of here.’ And I had to realise how to become the most unpopular member of the crew in double quick time but I know that both Joe and I were there to do a particular job and we were going to do that to the best of our ability. So we went down and although neither of us said anything to each other I’m sure we both realised that the lower we got the less forward travel that bomb was going to have before it hit the water. And secondly the lower we got the easier it was going to be to estimate the aiming point. On the tenth run we were down to thirty feet. When I said, ‘Bomb gone,’ ‘Thank Christ,’ came from the rear turret but in retrospect I had to see Dave’s point of view. He, as the rear gunner, was responsible for the safety of our aircraft from enemy aircraft and each time you went up you were going over the village and why not somebody there ringing the authorities and saying they’re bombing our, trying to bomb our dam at low level and they’d have had the fighters out there in no time flat and bye bye McCarthy’s crew in, equally, no time flat. So, I can understand to some degree Dave’s anxiety. Because we were so low it was nose up straight away to avoid the hills on the other side. I didn’t see the explosion but Dave did, again, in the rear turret and he estimated that the tower of water went up to about a thousand feet. Well if you’re going to explode six and a half thousand tonnes [sic] of explosive at a depth of twenty five feet it’s going to do an awful lot of damage one way, all ways, including upwards. And that of course was one thing that happened. ‘Not only that,’ said Dave from the rear turret, ‘But in the down flow some of it came in to the turret so I thought I was going to be drowned besides being knocked around by you lot up there.’ Anyway, we circled and we seemed to have cracked the surface of the dam. This was about ten yards. And that was that. Barnes Wallis had told us at briefing because of the structure of the Sorpe it was almost like a pyramid. Concrete centre and built all around with broken rock, earth, packed in tight and then concrete again on the outsides. Barnes Wallis had said, ‘If you can crack it the water pressure will do the rest.’ He thought you’d need at least six bombs to crack it. Obviously one wasn’t going to do it. And what we couldn’t understand was we had been so late taking off yet when we got there, there was no sign of anybody having been there. Nor did anyone arrive once we were there. Where they had gone we didn’t know until we got back. So then we set a course for home and I think, to me, that was the most inspiring part of the trip. Our journey home took us straight over what had been the Möhne dam and we knew from radio broadcast it had been breached and there was water everywhere. It was just like an inland sea and it was still coming out of that dam twenty minutes, half an hour, after it had been breached. It was a wonderful satisfaction for seeing, and we knew by radio broadcast the Eder had been breached too. So at least had the satisfaction of seeing some, real satisfaction of that operation and so off we went home. And then I suppose I have to take some responsibility for what happened next because we’d got off the track. We were supposed to be map, still at low level, map reading and we ended up over a railway and a railway yard but it wasn’t just a railway yard. It was the Hamm marshalling yard and that was where all the ammunitions that were made in the Ruhr were distributed to the various war areas by the transport. Sea or land and rail. Not the healthiest of places to be. Down goes Joe and then again from the rear turret, ‘Who needs guns? At this height all they need to do is change the points.’ Dave had that facility for brightening every particular situation. Joe said, ‘Right. We’re going out the way we came in. That’s it.’ So we did and we got back to Scampton and Scampton in those days was still a grass airfield and so landings were inclined to be a little more lumpy than now, than normal runway landings but ours was rather more than something lumpy and we were starboard wing low. And the flight engineer, looking out of the Perspex said, ‘We’ve got a burst tyre, skipper.’ So, he taxied around to dispersal and the chiefy engineer took the aircraft off to examine it and when he came back the first thing he did was to give us a sheer rollicking for getting his aircraft shot up in the way it was. But he explained that the shot had gone through the starboard undercarriage nacelle, burst the tyre en route, had then passed through the wing and landed in the roof, just above the navigator’s head. How lucky can you get? But we got away with it and that was that. Right. That was it. We then discovered why there seemed to be nobody else there. Les Munro, a New Zealand pilot, had been shot, shot up crossing the coast going in. Apart from other damage to the aircraft his communication system, systems, internal and external were completely destroyed and since it was obviously a communications exercise or operation there was no point him going on so he came back. We had been briefed that we were not to drop the — go back with the bomb on board and there was no explanation given but it also had, apart from the depth fuses it also had a self-destruct fuse so if we had to drop it away from the dams, if we dropped it it would explode and the Germans wouldn’t get a copy. Les landed. Couldn’t, couldn’t get rid of his bomb anyway so he had to land with it on. And they dashed out of the aircraft as soon as he was down, to get around in case. And I think the reason for that was that those in authority weren’t quite sure how that landing on the grass airfield with bumping — how the bomb would react to that. Would it drop off, explode and blow up the aircraft and crew there. So that was said. ‘Don’t bring the bomb back.’ And, as I say, Les and his crew got out pretty sharpish just in case. And then Geoff Rice had been flying low over the Zuiderzee. Again, to be drawing flak and he subsequently admitted he was foolish enough not to watch his altimeter and he got the bomb in the water. It whipped it off and the aircraft flew over the top of it. It didn’t do the aircraft any good of course. Apart from damage to the fuselage it ripped off the tail wheel but it also knocked over the Elsan inside the aircraft and the contents of the Elsan flowed in to the rear gunner’s turret. He wasn’t very happy about that either but there we go. Then he came back and landed. In fact, he was coming in to land and Les was at the same time. And since Les hadn’t been able to communicate to air traffic he had to go in as he was and the two of them were going in at the same time so Geoff had to fall off. Go around again. Eventually they both landed safely. Byers had been shot down and Barlow, I think it was Barlow, had hit the top of an electric pylon which fired the aircraft straightaway. It crashed into a field and killed the crew. But the bomb came off at the same time and it didn’t explode. And the only explanation I could think of was at that time the bomb aimer was waiting until they got nearer to the target to fuse it and that was the only thing I could think of. And there’s a picture, a German picture, I think of the mayor of the locality standing on top of the bomb [laughs] and it didn’t go off unfortunately. But there we are. But then, yes, the Germans had a copy and we know that they worked on it but fortunately, or unfortunately, Hitler decided the V1, V2 sites were much more important and they concentrated on that. So, they didn’t make a replica. But it did mean that in this country the reaction was felt that they would make a replica and attack our dams in the same way. So, all our major dams were much more heavily defended than they had been before.
DE: They wouldn’t have anything that would have carried that bomb at the time though either. Would they?
JJ: Sorry?
DE: They didn’t have any aircraft that would have carried that sort of bomb at the time either.
JJ: No. Knowing the Germans they would very quickly have modified something to do it. They were very efficient in those, that sort of thing. However, that accounted for the five. There had been six reserve aircraft who took off much later and they were briefed by radio as to which dam bombed, to head for and three of them were allocated to the Sorpe. The first one was shot down as he crossed the coast. Ken Brown, Canadian flight sergeant, was the only one who got through and as far as we know, difficult to make out but he had the same sort of attack as we did. But flight sergeant what’s his name. I can’t remember. But anyway, he was the third one and then mist was developing and he couldn’t find the Sorpe and so, getting close to daylight he thought, ‘We’d better go home.’ And so, they came home and he landed, again with his bomb on board. Fortunately, again, nothing happened. However, the next morning Gibson sent him back to the squadron that he came from for failing to carry out an operation for which he’d been briefed. It sounds hard but when you consider the money that had been spent on training, variation of the aircraft and all the equipment and so on and when the other thing you consider — the loss of crews. I think he was justified. But that was the devastating part of the whole night. Nineteen aircraft took off. Three returned for various reasons. Of the sixteen that went on only eight came back. We lost eight aircraft. Three aircrew managed to escape and were taken prisoner. The rest of the aircrews were killed. Eight aircraft. Fifty three aircraft [sic] had gone just like that. Quite a shattering end for one squadron. For one night’s operation. And although the bars were open at the messes when we got back, I didn’t drink in those days so I wasn’t concerned but I do know that those or at least I’m sure that those who were drinking was not on the success of the raid but on commiseration for all those that had gone and wouldn’t be coming back. I’m sure that feeling was far more uppermost in everybody’s minds that night. It took a lot to get over. And I suppose I went to bed and eventually I went to sleep but those hours. The Dams Raid, as far, as I was concerned had finished.
HH: Did you ever imagine then how that particular night would be possibly the most remembered night of the bombing war?
JJ: I remember and still do. It was the most remembered night of my operational career and will always be. Putting it in plain language it was the highlight of my operational career and I think those who survived would feel the same way about it. It was difficult to imagine it happening in the first place. It was equally difficult to see how much was going to be achieved. And I have an aversion for what I call retrospective historians. There are a number of them. Not a number of them a few of them after the war, claimed that the dams raid should never have taken place. It achieved nothing. It cost far too much money. It cost a lot of lives, loss of aircraft and it deviated aircraft from the general bomber offensive. I used to say as a young man if I ever met one of those people I’d hope my hands were tied behind my back because I’m not too sure what I would do with them. But I just and still would ask them two questions. ‘Were you there? Were you aware, were you personally aware of the circumstances and conditions of that time? The answer to both those questions is no so keep your bloody mouth shut.’ And that’s the way I really look at it now. Fortunately, I’ve found that the historians I have met subsequently have a much different view of the whole thing. Yes, they’ve researched it thoroughly and they’ve been as non-critical as possible in the whole thing. Rob Owen is our squadron historian. A great character, he really is. He too has recently passed his professorship and anyway he — that was the sort of thing that happened, there we are. However, after that we, yes, we had a week’s leave but beyond that we sat and waited. Re-equipped with standard aircraft. Re-equipped with a new bomb sight, the Stabilised Automatic Bomb Sight which was much more accurate than the Mark XIV that we had been using up to that time. And so we became a special target squadron rather than part of the main bombing force and so, we did attacks on ammunition factories, rail viaducts and all that sort of thing. Major structures and ammunition supplies. Firstly, in Germany and when they’d been bashed around, in to France. And during that time we had a new squadron commander. Leonard Cheshire. To my mind the finest squadron commander I served under during the whole of my operational career.
HH: Why was that?
JJ: He was a perfect gentleman to start with. I know it sounds stupid but that was part of it. I remember the first talk he had with us as a squadron. He said, ‘If you get,’ amongst other things, ‘If you get into trouble off duty I’ll do what I can to help you. If you get into trouble on duty I’ll make it a damn sight worse for you.’ So we always knew where we stood from the word go. But he was the type of man who knew exactly what he wanted to do and what it was all about. And he developed, amongst other things, his own marking technique which was ultimately adopted by 5 Group as the 5 Group marking technique. He and Micky Martin mostly did the marking. Initially using the Lancaster. And the thing that really makes Cheshire stick out — on the French targets particularly and on one French armament factory, again the name escapes me, but he, before he marked the target he made three low level flights over the factory and then marked the target and the factory was bombed and absolutely knocked around. And a short while afterwards we got a letter from what I must imagine was, we referred to as the foreman of the working party thanking him for giving, giving them the warning so that they could get out in time. Only one person was killed and that was by a piece of flying debris and that was all the others out of the way and he did this on several targets in that sort of way. The thing that really finished him operationally — he was an observer in the American aircraft that dropped the first atom bomb on Japan and he said, ‘If that’s what we’re aiming for I want nothing more to do with it.’ All that immediate devastation, life, everything anyway. ‘No. That’s not for me.’ So, he did no more operations and then ultimately when he retired he set up the Cheshire Homes in this country and overseas as well. And when I finally retired, that was a long time afterwards, I was [pause] we went back to Torquay. To Gwyn’s home. And I somehow found myself on the town council and we were opening a social services home for some of our residents and Leonard Cheshire was coming down to open it and he saw me in amongst the people there and he came over, shook hands, and mentioned me by name. I thought that must have been at least twenty years previously that we’d known each other. What a wonderful mind. What a wonderful memory. I have nothing but praise for that man in everything that he did. And he married Sue Ryder who was also a big charity worker. I think, I’m not sure but I think she was a Roman Catholic and I think he converted at that time. But yes, I’m waiting. There’s a function coming up. I’m not sure when but shortly, to celebrate, I think it’s the hundred and twenty fifth birthday of Leonard Cheshire and I’ve been invited to go along to that. I’m not sure quite where it is or when it is now but that’s up to Jenny when she, when she gets back. But it’s the sort of thing which yes, I really want to go to that because I really have so much respect for that man and that was it.
HH: But you went on, if I’m not mistaken, to complete two tours.
JJ: [unclear] I should have gone on more but in April of ‘44 Gwyn was expecting our first child and Joe knew her quite well and he pulled me aside one day and said, ‘Johnny. Gwyn must be worried stiff about whether this child is ever going to have a father or whether she’s ever going to have a husband. You’ve got to give her a break. Pack it up now.’ And he made me realise that yes, I had other responsibilities besides fighting the war. Operationally fighting a war. And with great reluctance I left the crew at that stage. They went on and did, I think, at least ten more trips but by this time Leonard Cheshire had done a hundred and the AOC Sir Ralph Cochrane called him into group headquarters and said, ‘Leonard. You’ve done more than your share. Pack it up. That’s not a request. It’s an order. And when you get back to the squadron tell McCarthy, Munro and Shannon to do the same thing.’ They were the only three original pilots that formed the squadron and that was when the crew broke up. But Joe, as an American, stayed in the Canadian air force and became a wing commander flying and went on to operational flying stations. The thing that still sticks very much in my mind. I mentioned how the friendship between us seemed to develop. After the war he and Alice, his wife, would come over for the reunions and Gwyn and I would go. We’d meet up and then we’d take ourselves off on a Friday night off to a pub or something like that and have a quiet meal on our own and talk about our families. What we had done with them, what we were doing with them, what we were expecting from them and that sort of thing. And that family chat went on right up until the time that Joe died in 1996. We had a wonderful relationship. And his son, also Joe, I still have that same sort of contact with him and his wife. And that, for me, was the outstanding part of my war. The established friendship between not only between the two of us but between our families and that was really great. It really was.
HH: It comes across very strongly in your book your dedication to your family and your commitment to your family. Where did, where did that come from?
JJ: From my childhood where I didn’t have any family relationship. When life was, to put it politely, pretty miserable until I met Gwyn’s family. A Welsh family. Her father, as I said, was in the army in North Africa but her mother was a lovely French lady. Chatter chatter chatter. Laugh. She had two brothers and a sister and their family, as such, were all the same. Always chattering with each other, chattering with each other and they got on so well together and I thought, my first reaction was, ‘My God. What have I let myself in for?’ But I soon discovered what family was all about and that’s where it established. And what it has done, in fact, has made me realise how poor my family relationship was in my younger days. My very young days. My sister and one of my sisters in law was also very friendly as far as I was concerned. They were the only two. Alena was my surrogate mother for quite some time. Only seven years older than me but she managed us both extremely well and it was the sort of thing that I find that the family I’ve got now — they’re just great. And the support I get from my immediate family, immediate family, is absolutely wonderful. I found, when Gwyn was in hospital the children came over. That’s Sue and Jenny used to come over and visit her in hospital and Morgan was over on this one occasion and we went back to the flat and I thanked him for coming down and the other two for coming to see mum, you know and I said, ‘It’s great for her and it’s certainly great for me as well.’ He said, ‘Well you know why that is don’t you dad?’ I didn’t know. He said, ‘It’s the way we were brought up.’ And my God — coming from my son. I was absolutely amazed because he and I hadn’t agreed awfully well in his teenage years. His idea of discipline and mine tended to differ a bit but we got over that and I think the real climax of our relationship has come with that book where he’s written the last bit. When I read that there were tears in my eyes. So sincere. So, so much to the point. And I loved his last sentence, ‘How a young, how a great life for a poor farming Lincolnshire lad whose only friend was a pig’ [laughs]. I thought that was a great way to finish it.
HH: Yeah. After the war you remained in the RAF.
JJ: Yeah.
HH: But you were moved around an awful lot.
JJ: Yes.
HH: And how did you cope with — how did your family and how did you cope with all of that moving?
JJ: Very well in actual fact except that it came to a point where we had to consider the children’s education. Particularly Morgan’s. Why we should be more concerned with the boy and not the girls I don’t know but there we are. And he had to go to boarding school but he went with our promise that if we ever went overseas we would take him out and take him with us. But as a family, from my point of view I’ve always got the family with me for as long, not all the time obviously but when we got an idea of a posting if we had time we would go down to the area of the posting and see if we could find accommodation down there. And when the posting came along went straight into that accommodation. If we didn’t we’d book a, book into the local hotel and Gwyn would look for accommodation whilst I was at work but we always managed to stay together as much as we could. And I used that on one occasion when I know I didn’t do myself any good at all career wise. But I’d been, I’d been on a course in Norfolk. I think they called it a senior officer’s administrative course. One of these courses where you’re taught when you’re writing official letters to leave so much margin on the left and so much on the right and the spacing of the paragraphs and so on and that is how it should be done. There was a little bit more about the course than that but that was the general gist of it and when the course was ended everybody got their postings except me. So, I said to the course commander, ‘Where am I going?’ ‘Well we’re still trying to find out.’ And eventually he came to me. He said, ‘You’re going to the twin engine bomber OTU to start with and then on to the V force OTU and then on to a V force squadron.’ I said, ‘I’m not.’ ‘What do you mean you’re not?’ I said, ‘I’ve had five moves in fifteen months. I think it’s time I spent more time with my family.’ He said, ‘Well. That’s what you’ve got. ’ Went back to my station, which was St Mawgan at that stage and had to go and see the AOC. And amongst other things he said, ‘You realise this won’t do your career any good Johnson.’ I was still a flight lieutenant at that stage. ‘I do sir. But what I do really want — to have more time with my family and I think I should have a chance to do that.’ ‘Alright. Be it on your own head.’ And I was posted then to recruit school at Bridgnorth. And people said, Good God. Tech Training Command. Recruit school. What a,’ so and so, ‘Awful posting.’ I found it didn’t work out that way at all because it was the first time I’d been associated with man management. It had always been aircrew stuff before that. I’d either been flying or an instruction point of view. And no two days were the same at recruit school. There was always something odd would happen. On one particular occasion, in the evening, a corporal came down to quarters and said, ‘Would you come back up to the squadron sir? A recruit up there is threatening to commit suicide with his bayonet.’ I went up and this laddie was sitting on the edge of his bed with his bayonet in his hand and I said, ‘Why? What’s this all about?’ He said, ‘Well, I don’t think I’m doing at all well on this course. I don’t think I should be doing it anyway. I don’t think I’m doing anybody else any good at all. I think there’s only one way to do it and that’s to end it.’ I said, ‘Just listen a minute. Why don’t you make your mind up to do this course properly? To do it to the best of your ability and then find how much better off you feel about it. Just try that and see how it goes.’ And he looked at me and he thought and I said, ‘Give me that bayonet,’ which he did and he went on to do one of the best recruits on the flight at that stage. That was the odd sort of thing that happened. Another character came in one day to ask if he could have a ‘48’ for his grandmother’s eighty third birthday party. I said, ‘For your cheek yes you can but by golly if you’re not back here on Monday sunshine you’re in dead lumber.’ But there we are. Odd sort of things that happened there.
HH: Was that instructor experience that made you consider teaching as a career post-RAF?
JJ: No. I don’t think that really came into it. Um, what made me? When I, sorry, my last tour was the worst of the whole of my career and it was back to Hemswell. In the operations room. And we were controlling the Thor guided missiles. We had four sites of Thor, the American Thor guided missiles and we were controlling those and it was a question of — I’d never been on a shift system before and this was a ghastly one. You did two days from four ‘til, sorry from eight in the morning ‘til four in the afternoon. Two days from four until midnight and then two days from midnight until eight the next morning. Your system just didn’t get used to anything and then you had what they claimed to be a sleeping day and a day off. Well, since I was living out at that stage at our home we had taken over. My sister’s home then. And we had a big garden there so my sleeping day was spent in the garden most of the time and that was it but I felt that — I know I’d got a letter then from the, I suppose it was the MOD by that time saying it was unlikely that I would get any further promotion and thank you very much. Goodbye. We’d discussed this for some time actually. Time we started to move and look for something else. But then the question was, what the hell can I do? I‘ve no qualifications for going outside but I’d done a lot of instruction in various ways in the service. That’s what made me think about the possibility of teaching and so I applied for junior teaching because I felt that if I went secondary, into a secondary modern school their idea of discipline and mine would be different. And my idea of dealing with that discipline would be different from the authorities. I’d probably be out of a job more often than I was in it. So I went for junior and that was — and I was accepted for that. On the course I did a three year course in two years as a mature student and the authorities found two teaching practices for us. We had to find our own third. When we came back from Singapore Jenny had just a year to do in her junior education and we’d heard of the [pause] private school, primary school, Highfields in Newark and we went to have a look at it, liked it and she got a place there so when I did the teacher’s course I went to see the head to see if I could do my third teaching practice there and he said, ‘Yes, surely.’ And that meant I got to know the school extremely well. I don’t think the authorities were very pleased I’d chosen a private school rather than a state school but that was just tough, that was the way it went. And when I finished the teaching practice they said, ‘If I get a vacancy would you like to come here?’ Too right I would. And so off we went and then I got my first posting to a state school. To a class of forty six C stream.
DE: Crikey.
JJ: Who didn’t want to know the first thing about anything. Except one lad I always remember. He said, ‘I don’t know nothing about reading and writing, sir. But I do know my money.’ He was a scrap merchant’s son so that was understandable. But that was the sort of thing that I — but during that year, that first year, the head from Highfields rang me and said, ‘I’ve got a vacancy coming up in September. Are you still interested?’ Was I interested? Too right I was interested [laughs] and so I had time to give notice to the LEA and moved in to the private school and that was where I learned to teach. To teach children who wanted to learn. Okay. The parents were paying for them to get that education but that was what it was all about and the teaching staff were dedicated to providing an education. It was a wonderful experience. And I went on with that for five years. But during that time I’d got a part time job on a Saturday morning at Rampton Hospital which, I don’t know if you know it, but the hospital for the bad boys. A special hospital for the bad boys and I decided to, with my previous private training, school training, to take on a horticultural class there.
HH: I’m just intrigued as to why you decided to that because it must have been quite challenging work.
JJ: I think it was another interest and it was a return to the work that I’d been doing before I joined the air force. I think that came into it as well. Mind you, yes. There were some shocks. You had to draw your keys in the morning. No. Sorry we’ll come back in a minute. But after a while the hospital decided they wanted an adult education section and they applied to the LEA. And the LEA agreed. So that was done and that was where I transferred from junior’s education to adult education. A different kind and very different in the level of the teaching.
HH: But much more difficult pupils.
JJ: No. Except that whenever they came in staff came in with them in case there was any problem. And no. They never had one as far as I was concerned but I still went on with the horticultural project as well and it was getting to the stage where they seemed to become much more interested in what they were doing. We had our own patch. We cultivated it, we grew the vegetables and passed them in to the hospital window for use and so on and I began to wonder would it be at all possible to take these people to a garden centre to see what goes on outside of a hospital garden and I discussed it with a senior nurse who told me in words of one syllable not to be so stupid. And we argued and we argued and we argued and, in the end, he said, ‘Alright. Be it on your own head,’ he said, ‘But you have to take staff with you.’ ‘I appreciate that but I hope they’ll come out of uniform,’ which they did thank God and we went off. Before we went I said to these characters, ‘Look this is a job on my head. If any of you do anything stupid on this outing I’ll have your guts for garters when you come back.’ But that was the sort of language they understood. We went off and I was amazed at how interested they were in the garden centre. In what they saw and how interested they were in the plants themselves too. We took them into a café for a cup of tea. They behaved themselves perfectly. So, we went back to Rampton and the head nurse was waiting for us when we got back there. He said, ‘Congratulations. How did, how did you manage it?’ I said, ‘With confidence.’ That was the end of that conversation and I felt that from my point of view that had been an achievement. And in the meantime my local hospital have the mental handicapped in Balderton. Not a term I’m supposed to use myself but they call them something like learning disabled or something like that. They’re still mentally handicapped as far as I’m concerned but there we are. That’s another story. But this was again a totally different type of education. It was a social education and we were taking the better of the patients and trying to build them up to be able to get them back in to the community. And we had our own classroom. I had a full time deputy and four part time teachers. Two mornings. Two for mornings. Two for afternoons. And we had a classroom, a kitchen, a bedroom all available there and we worked on through that and we had a group of, I suppose, a dozen of them and I was there for fourteen years. My last fourteen years was there and during that time after we’d carried on this social education for quite some years we managed to get three houses at various times. Two council and one private. And before me moved the patients in we went down to talk to the local people about the people that were coming to mix with them and then invited those people back up to the hospital to see them at work up there and see how they were going on. When we made the movement in so much easier for the patients and fortunately easier for the residents to accept them.
HH: What sort of mental disabilities did they have?
JJ: Good question [pause] I suppose one could only describe it as a very slowness in learning. An inability to learn in actual fact is probably the easiest way to describe it. There were variations of course. We had some Mongoloid patients there and I have to say although some of those could be very angry at times and very discouraging they were probably some of the lovingest people that were about. They seemed to love everybody. Great people then from that point of view.
HH: And you had quite a lot of success in rehousing people did you?
JJ: In those days and in that case yes we did and when I, by the time I left none of those people that we had moved into the houses had been returned to the hospital.
HH: Fantastic.
JJ: They’d all managed to stay out. Either with work — some of them got work. Others had picked up with other things looking after the house and sort of doing whatever they wanted to do.
HH: And what did you find especially satisfying about that kind of work?
JJ: The possibility of bringing some of those people back in to the community so they could learn to live in a community rather than in a hospital situation. That was the most satisfying thing about it I think.
HH: And then after that as far as I remember you retired and you moved back down to the West Country.
JJ: Torquay. Yes.
HH: But it wasn’t the end of retirement really because then you became a town councillor.
JJ: Yes [laughs]. That didn’t for last for long mind you. Three years. Then somebody else beat me to the next election. That was it but however yes, and again I don’t know if you know Torquay at all but it’s the sort of place, when I was first there was a lovely seaside place. It was much more modern when we I went to live there and when I was on the council I was on the planning. Got on to the planning committee and we used to go around to these various places where people had asked for planning permission to do something and as we went around I saw some of these buildings and I said to the people, ‘Who the hell gave permission for that to be built?’ The whole place was being destroyed by these ugly looking places that were being put up. However, they seemed to get on with it and that was it. And I was there, it was at that time that I met Leonard Cheshire again. But I’ve [pause] whilst I was at Balderton Hospital Gwyn was secretary of our village primary school and she retired in the summer and I retired at the Christmas and I said to her, ‘I’ve had twenty-two years in the service. I’ve had twenty-two years in various education. Now I want twenty-two years’ retirement.’ I rather overstepped that one unfortunately. She hasn’t. But life didn’t quite finish then. I thought it would when she died but there again the children stepped in and they said, ‘Dad, you haven’t talked about your wartime at all. Why don’t you start talking about it? It would at least give you something else to think about apart from grieving for mum all the time which we know you will be doing.’ And so, I thought about it and I tried it and it worked. Yes. It was something else to think about and I started occasional teaching talks to various groups. I didn’t volunteer but it started really when I came here to Bristol in that an individual who I just knew as an individual at that time, came to see me. Would I consider talking to their ‘41 Club? And that was Peter Wass that finally turned out to be. He then onwards introduced me to so many clubs and associations I’d never even heard of but that’s when the talking really started and the sort of thing which, on the seventieth anniversary of the dams raid, it just burst wide open and that’s when Jenny came in to her own and she took over as she said, secretary and she arranged all the meetings. The talks. The television programmes and either she put it on the calendar or told me to put it on the calendar. All I had to do was look on the calendar to see what I was supposed to be doing this week. But then came the time when I had begun to get movement, action, down further south and then Morgan, my son took over then. He lives in Surrey so he claimed to be secretary number two. Jenny said, ‘In that case I’m the PA,’ and that’s the way it stayed ever since.
DE: Why do you think you didn’t talk about it until that point?
JJ: I don’t think it was my wife’s objection anyway. I think maybe more [pause] that I didn’t think it was important at that stage to talk about it. It had happened. I’d seen all that I had to see during the war and that was it. I now had other things to think about and that was basically the only thing. I’d hate to say, I can’t see any real reason for it but that’s the only one what I can work out now that you’ve asked the question. And I think it’s more likely that having lost Gwyn I was — I had to have something else to do and that was the thing at that stage that I knew most about. My wartime experience. Why not start talking about it. Again it wasn’t my — it was the children who suggested it and by God, they were right.
HH: Well it has led to a lot of recognition for you and I would like, on behalf of the IBCC to congratulate you greatly for your MBE. On the award of your MBE. You seem, in your book, to have made a lot of mention of trying all of your life to get away from Lincolnshire and I’m very pleased that Lincolnshire beckons you back as it will be doing on the 7th of September when the university awards you an honorary doctorate. Well, well received and well deserved and I would just like to say thank you very much for talking to us this afternoon in this interview and I think we’ll stop the interview now.
DE: Okay. Right.
HH: And we will then go on to set up a short video.
DE: Okay.
HH: Thank you so much for speaking to us.
JJ: And may I say, may I say thank you to Lincoln University for making this wonderful offer. To me it means as much, if not more than the MBE in that it’s more concerned with my after-service life. The part which I live and live with and use quite often now. And I find that that has been another means of keeping me active. I spend quite a lot of time away from here but it’s time which I enjoy. I’ve come to enjoy talking to people. Meeting people and talking to them. And if I’m asked would I talk to a organisation, club or whatever — to me that means they’re interested and if they’re interested yes, I’ll talk to them. It’s a bit of a nostalgic trip for me anyway so it cuts both ways. But there’s another aspect recently, more recently and that is talking to junior schools. Now, the junior schools are teaching, outside, our junior schools are now teaching our World War Two history and I’ve been asked to talk to one or two of them and I found that the thing that amazes me is the look of interest in the children’s eyes when they come into the room. That makes it for me to start with. And when I finish talking and ask for questions the hands go up all over the place. Where the hell do I start? But to me that means they’re now learning something about why the country they’re living in is the country they’re living in and what it might have been had things gone the other way. And I think that’s a necessary part of their early education so they can complete it I think. And this is where I think the IBCC is a much more personal memorial than the Green Park one. Yes, the Green Park one is great. I take my hat off to the sculptor for the way he’s got the look in those crew people’s eyes as they’re waiting for their comrades to come back and so on but this — on operation if you’re coming back the Lincoln route when you got to the Cathedral you were home and the sighting of the IBCC in sight of Lincoln Cathedral is perfect for that and then with all those names written on the wall. Those names are there for perpetuity and all generations to come will be able to see those and think — why? How did they get here? And what did they do to get here? And their memory will still be cherished. As I say their home in name and their name will go on as long as it’s on that wall. I don’t know whether they completed it. I know they did all those of the aircrew from the Lincolnshire Bomber Command stations. I gather they were going to do the whole of the Bomber Command losses and I think that will take quite a lot of doing.
HH: The rest. You carry on.
DE: So, they’re in production at the moment. They’re making the steel walls.
JJ: Ah yeah.
DE: Yeah.
HH: They should be on site by the middle of October.
JJ: How wonderful, it really is. And I take my hat off to those people for the work they’ve done on that. It really is wonderful. And I get great pleasure in being able just to add a little bit towards whatever the construction is. That is, to me, as important a part of the charities I get as anything else.
HH: Well we do look forward to having you at the opening ceremony in April.
JJ: I hope to be there. I know I will have the April calendar blocked out [laughs].
DE: Marvellous.
HH: Thank you so much.
DE: Thank you for the interview and thank you for all the work you do for the IBCC.
JJ: And thank you again.
DE: Wonderful talking to you. Thank you.
JJ: Please give my thanks to whoever’s concerned at the university.
HH: Thank you. Well we’re going to meet again for the occasion because I am going to be introducing you in the Cathedral. So, what we will do, do you want to take a bit of a break? Have a cup of tea or something?
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AJohnsonGL170801-01
Title
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Interview with Johnny Johnson. Two
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:56:39 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
George ‘Johnny’ Johnson was born in rural Lincolnshire. As a child he won a scholarship to Lord Wandsworth’s Agricultural College in Hampshire. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force at the outbreak of the Second World War and was selected for pilot training. He was sent to train in the United States. As he was so keen to get a posting, he trained instead as an air gunner. His first posting was as a spare gunner with 97 Squadron. Then he re-trained as a bomb aimer and was again posted as a spare bomb aimer until he was joined a crew in 617 Squadron to train for the Eder, Möhne and Sorpe operation, when it was still known as Squadron X. His pilot was Joe McCarthy. Their target was the Sorpe dam. That operation was the most memorable of his operational career. He also recounts his remaining years in the Royal Air Force, his second career as an educationist working with adults with severe learning needs and his subsequent role in local politics and as a public speaker.
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Heather Hughes
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-01
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Brian May
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Sorpe Dam
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942
1943
5 Group
617 Squadron
97 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bouncing bomb
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
love and romance
memorial
operations room
RAF Scampton
RAF Woodhall Spa
sanitation
training
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3438/PJohnsonGL1703.2.jpg
b0e04e09829fa1165d2691d7c4cc044c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3438/AJohnsonGL170801-02AV.1.mp3
eb39e14f9d84e850e2bbb56162504c34
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Johnson, Johnny
George Johnson
G L Johnson
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Squadron Leader George Leonard ‘Johnny’ Johnson MBE (1921 - 2022). Johnny Johnson flew operations as a bomb aimer with 97 Squadron from RAF Woodhall Spa and with 617 Squadron from RAF Scampton. On 16/17 May 1943 he took part in Operation Chastise to attack German dams with bouncing bombs. He served in the RAF until 1962 and then had a career in education. He was given an honorary doctorate by the University of Lincoln in 2017.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-01
2015-03-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Johnson, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GJJ: On 106 Squadron was known as the arch bastard.
[Laughter]
Other: Good. [pause] That part I got on camera.
DE: I did press record before.
HH: We were told a very funny story about how Gibson and his new wife booked into some inn in Lincolnshire on the night of their wedding and they had this rare, rare commodity of smoked salmon and they handed it to somebody who was kitchen staff to put it, to serve it up and it came all fried [laughter] And he was apparently absolutely livid that the smoked salmon had been fried.
Other: You would be slightly upset, wouldn’t you?
HH: Someone had told me that story.
GJJ: I gather she was quite a lady too. She was one of the Windmill Dancers, wasn’t she? I think.
[pause]
Other: I must [pause] Ok.
[pause]
Other 2: May I take it out? May I take it out?
DE: Can he, can you remove that thing behind you?
[pause]
Other: Ok.
GJJ: How tall are you?
Other 2: Six two.
GJJ: Have you stopped growing?
Other 2: Not yet.
[Laughter]
Other 2: Ok. Right.
[pause]
Other 2: Ok.
[pause]
Other 2: Ready to go.
Other: Ok.
Other 2: Switched off.
DE: Switched off?
Other 2: Ok.
HH: Do you want me to come and hold that?
[Noise in background]
DE: That’s just to make you jump.
[laughter]
GJJ: The last time that happened I had a coffee and dozed off. The telephone rang. Ahh all down my trousers.
DE: Oh dear.
Other: That’ll teach you.
DE: Yeah. Johnny, I wonder if you could tell me what your feelings were, what your thoughts were when the Dam Busters film came out?
GJJ: Some of it has to be disappointment. I’m afraid the author didn’t get everything quite as right as he might have done. He didn’t mention the Sorpe at all. And the film was based on his book. Didn’t mention the Sorpe at all, either in the introduction or the attack on the Sorpe. So as far as that was concerned we had done nothing at all. I was amazed, I saw recently, saw a copy again where Gibson is looking at one of these now manufactured bombsights on the, on his desk. They didn’t exist. At least as far as I’m aware they didn’t exist. I think the only one that he really accredited to the squadron was that of Dave Maltby’s. His father was headmaster of a big school and I think he had it made. I’m not sure. I know it does say on the thing as used by Flight Lieutenant David Maltby’s crew. That one had done the circle. And Fred Bateman who recently was committed to two years in jail for basically stealing people’s logbooks more than anything else. He auctioned that particular one and I think he made something like forty thousand pounds. Where he got it from I don’t know but it was supposed to have gone back to the family. But these things now have appeared quite frequently in all sorts of areas. I have, I signed two for Nigel the other day. They’re both going to IBCC I think. But, no the other thing about Paul Brickhill is that I know that Johnson is a popular name . Notice I say popular, not common but he managed to get Ted Johnson, flight lieutenant on Joe’s crew and me on Johnson’s crew in the crew list that he produced. I was looking through quickly his latest book in which he deals with the squadrons throughout the war and when he’s talking about the attack on the Sorpe, McCarthy made three attempts and then gave it up. Where he got his [mentions?] from I don’t know. I would have to say that I think the greatest author is John Sweetman. And the thing I like about John is that whatever he’s writing about he researches it thoroughly and then he just writes what he’s found in his research. He doesn’t say this should have happened, that should have happened or could have happened or might have happened. Doesn’t believe in that at all. So, what he produces ultimately is a very factual book and his Operation Chastise which was produced shortly after Paul Brickhill’s book is absolutely accurate from the beginning to the end. And it goes right through from the first thoughts during the early thirties about the dams being used in an attack, as a target right through to the actual completion of the whole thing. I got to know John very well and I do find him a very interesting and pleasant character and I do much appreciate that what he writes is purely factual and nothing more. There are a few of the other authors that might take example from that, I think.
DE: Do you think sometimes perhaps that Operation Chastise has sort of over- shadowed some of the other work that Bomber Command did during the war?
GJJ: I can’t see, quite frankly any reason why it shouldn’t be because the work that Bomber Command did during the war was certainly something that everybody has to be extremely grateful for. And that, I find is another of my moans at the moment — trying to get recognition for those. I think the figure as I know at the moment is fifty seven thousand six hundred and eighty one, something like that, who were killed. Over eight thousand that were injured, some permanently, and the over nine thousand who spent some time in German prisoner of war camps. No recognition of that comes up on anywhere. Particularly from the politicians. The senior politicians in particular. And I have moaned about this and the non-appearance of a Bomber Command medal. And the last time I did this was, strangely enough at the IBCC’s annual dinner two years ago. I was asked if I would say a few words about Bomber Command and about the museum itself, the centre itself and I really went to town on the Bomber Command bit. Particularly Churchill. Because he, to my mind, had no time at all for Sir Arthur Harris, the chief of Bomber Command who was so much respected by the air crews of Bomber Command. And the one particular instance that sticks out is the operation against Dresden. Arthur Harris didn’t want to do it. It had no military achievement. All we would be doing is creating fire but Churchill insisted that it was done. And when it was done and it became virtually a holocaust at Dresden Churchill blamed Harris for it. He had wanted to do it. He striked me as being the type of man who if he had an idea which he thought would help end the war he’d go to the senior colleague in that particular area and suggest it to them. If it came off it was my idea. If it doesn’t it’s your fault. It shouldn’t have gone like that. And that was the sort of thing I found so annoying about his attitude generally. It may sound a bit off-side, an Englishman talking about Churchill in that matter but that’s the way I feel about him. I found that on that particular dinner meeting I mentioned senior politicians all the way through and when it came to the IBCC I was as full of praise as I possibly could be and stressed the personal effect it could have. And at that time my MP, my local MP, [Catherine Lesser?] at Bristol [?] I had met on a couple of occasions before, I’d done a brief interview with the Daily Express, shortly before the dinner and the Daily Telegraph journalist was sitting in the dinner making notes as I spoke and they both printed the next morning. And oddly, Catherine read it and then she wrote a letter to David Cameron which suggested why didn’t he do something about it? Why couldn’t he even invite me down there and discuss what might be done between us to put this on. And then I got a copy of his reply to her letter and a more political letter you couldn’t wish to see. Everything that could be done had been done. You can’t afford two medals for the same business and there’s already the 1945 [pause] sorry the ’39 ’45 Star and the Air Crew Europe and now they’ve got the clasp which I had said at my talk I thought was an absolute insult. A tiny bit of copper with perhaps Bomber Command, if you can read it, across it. It has to be fitted to an existing medal and [pause] but then, that’s the way it goes. And so far, we’re still no nearer to a Bomber Command medal than we were then but at least it doesn’t stop us from trying. Anyway, when I get the opportunity, I belly ache about it and I will go on to.
DE: What do you think about the memorials that there are to Bomber Command?
GJJ: I think the park, the Green Park one is very good. I think the, I take my hat off to the sculptor that designed it. I think that you can see the look of expectation in that crew’s eyes as they’re waiting for their comrades to come back. And you can also see in some the tiredness in their eyes. And if — I’ve got a picture down there. If you can. The one behind the one in the front.
DE: We’ll have a look at it in a minute if you —
GJJ: That shows [pause] That shows the model, the memorial in the background behind that aircraft with the, “Never forget,” notice underneath. I think it’s tremendous. But yes, a very good model. But again, it’s not, not as personal as the IBCC and that I think is the finest memorial to Bomber Command that there is in this country in that it is so personal and reflects so much the work that Bomber Command did. And of course, includes the Bomber Command county of course as we say Lincolnshire was known. Others, I think, where they’re placed, I think the people that have done it have done it with every good intention and I think they make a point but the dominance in my mind comes from the IBCC and I have yet to see anything that will really overtake it.
DE: Smashing. Thank you. Just, as I think as a final question what are your feelings about the campaigns to give you some personal recognition?
GJJ: I am absolutely completely grateful to all those people that have worked and prepared to sign the petitions and those who have worked so hard to get them signed. I’m grateful for the award that has resulted from that. Very grateful. But I have to remember that this is not me. I’m the lucky one. I’m still alive. This is representation of what the squadron has done and that is the way it needs to be looked at. I will always regard it as such. Again, but still with great gratitude for, for the recognition. And that is why I find that my recognition from Lincoln [pause] Lincoln [pause] I’ll try that again, from Lincoln University is so special to me because it not only deals with my wartime stuff but it deals more specifically or I think highlights more specifically my work and life after my service life. And I think that I’ll always be extremely grateful for that. Absolutely. A great deal.
DE: Thank you very much. I think that’s, that’s absolutely wonderful. We’ve got, got all we hoped to get and more. Thank you.
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AJohnsonGL170801-02AV
PJohnsonGL1703
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Interview with Johnny Johnson.Three
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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eng
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00:18:57 audio recording
00:15:33 video recording
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Pending review
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Dan Ellin
Date
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2017-08-01
Description
An account of the resource
George ‘Johnny’ Johnson comments on Paul Brickhill's book and on the 1955 film of the same name, expressing disappointment that there was no mention of the Sorpe Dam. He voices contempt for the unscrupulous people who have made money by selling log books taken from veterans’ families. He notes that not all authors writing about Bomber Command are reliable. He criticises Winston Churchill for the way in which he held Arthur Harris responsible for the Dresden attack of February 1945. He explains his part in the campaign for Bomber Command to receive a medal, and his disappointment about the clasp. He mentions his correspondence with David Cameron. He praises the Green Park memorial but feels the finer one is the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln. He acknowledges the recent recognition given to him, but stresses that gratitude is due to all those who fought and died.
<p>This content is available as embedded video:</p>
<p><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/B87JkF-HJlg?rel=0&showinfo=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe></p>
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Germany--Sorpe Dam
Temporal Coverage
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1943-05-16
1943-05-17
Contributor
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Julie Williams
106 Squadron
617 Squadron
bombing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
memorial
perception of bombing war
RAF Waddington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/309/3466/AMunroL150604.2.mp3
e4a1c8a20e21add227fdb978e901cb8a
Dublin Core
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Title
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Munro, Les
Les Munro
John Leslie Munro
John L Munro
John Munro
J L Munro
J Munro
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Squadron Leader John Leslie Munro CNZM DSO QSO DFC (1919-2015, Royal New Zealand Air Force). Les Munro trained as a pilot in New Zealand and Canada and completed 58 operations with 97 Squadron and 617 Squadron from RAF Woodhall Spa and RAF Scampton. His aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire on the way bomb the Sorpe dam and he returned to RAF Scampton still carrying his bouncing bomb.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Munro, L
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NB: Right. It’s quarter to five on the 4th of June 2015. I’m in the house of John Leslie Munro in Tauranga, New Zealand. Excuse the pronunciation. Tauranga in New Zealand. Um I wondered if we could start off by just finding out a bit about your life before you went into Bomber Command.
JLM: Yes. I was born to — my father worked on a sheep station at Dorman which was sixteen miles from the town of Gisborne. I was born and brought up and spent all my younger life in the Gisborne district. After I only spent two years at high school because of the slump. We were being brought up in the slump. My parents could not afford to keep me at high school any longer so immediately on leaving high school in 1936 I went to work on a small dairy farm on which I worked for about eighteen months and from there I went to a larger farm which was a mixed sheep, you know, sheep cropping, mainly maize and dairying. And after about two years in that — working on that farm the owner left to work for a rural department and left me in charge. I was in. When war broke out I considered that I should actually do my part in, in supporting the king and country and democracy and freedom and democracy and that sort of thing. Ah and I um postponed enlisting because my younger brother had put his age forward and he actually spent his twenty first birthday overseas and that upset my parents quite considerably and I respected their feelings about the matter and postponed my enlistment until I passed the age of twenty one. So, as soon I was twenty one I enlisted in the air force. And because I’d only did two years course at high school of which neither was in– covered mathematics they said I wasn’t suitable to be a pilot but I could be a gunner or a wireless operator if that was suitable to me. But I didn’t, I didn’t agree with that and they said, well I said I wanted to be a pilot and the air force said, well, alright you can do a correspondence course in mathematics and trigonometry [struggles over word] and if, if you pass that we’ll accept you as a pilot and that’s what happened. I did the correspondence course and it was very very hard to do trigonometry and that I just couldn’t follow for a while. And eventually I passed and I went into the air force at Levin which was a brown place, just a parade ground sort of experience. And on the 5th of July 1941.
NB: Right.
JLM: Yeah.
NB: What made you go for the air force?
JLM: Well I’m often, I’m often asked that and I think, I think the idea that I wanted to be a pilot. I would be in charge of my own destiny. I think that was what drove me to that. The other thing is that the second farm I worked on, the homestead was up on a hill and the commercial air, commercial planes used to fly past. I’d watch them flying and I think I got a feel for flying, for flying planes, myself. Yeah.
NB: So, once, once you enlisted having got your qualification what was the process they put you through for training?
JLM: Well as I said earlier I entered the air force on the 15th of July 1941 at a place called Levin. I only had about six weeks there and I was transferred to New Plymouth to number 2 EFTS, that’s the Elementary Flying Training School on Tiger Moths.
NB: Right.
JLM: Spent um, flew there. I got my uh went solo after about six and a half hours’ training which apparently was recognised as being fairly good in those days. Ten hours was recognised as the normal period in which to gain your pilot’s licence to be able to go solo. And I gained my pilot’s licence, well, not licence but go solo and after six and half hours and [pause] — I’m not sure, I haven’t got the dates with me. After about ten weeks I think it would have been we were sent on leave and I left New Zealand on the 20th of October 1941 for Canada.
NB: Right.
JLM: I was sent to Canada. Number 4 SFTS [Service Flying Training School] where I trained on twin engine Cessna Cranes.
NB: Right.
JLM: Just as a point of interest is at that stage the Americans weren’t in the war and we travelled to Canada on the SS Mariposa which was a cruise ship and we were, we actually were transferred as, or transported, as civilians.
NB: Right.
JLM: We had two to a cabin with a server. A steward waiting on us in the cabins and the same on the, on the dining room tables. We were waited on by stewards and we were treated as civilians all the way over which was a quite significant in the sense that if we had been on a troop ship we’d have been about — I don’t know how many to a cabin and all that sort of thing. Yeah.
NB: And did that take you to —
JLM: And went to we arrived at San Diego and berthed there for a couple of days and then we sailed again through San Francisco. We debarked — disembarked at San Francisco.
NB: Okay. And then how, how did you get into Canada from there?
JLM: Hmmn?
NB: You went up to Canada from there?
JLM: Yeah. I, we caught the train at [pause] what’s the name of it? No gone. Caught the train at, there’s another town is there? Across the estuary or somewhere from the town of San Francisco, the city of San Francisco up to Vancouver.
NB: Right.
JLM: And then over. Took the train from Vancouver. Again I think we had to change to Canadian Railways of course and went over the Rockies to Saskatoon.
NB: Oh right.
JLM: To the [pause] yeah, which is in Saskatchewan.
NB: Saskatchewan. And how long was your training period? And was there a difference in climate or —
JLM: Ah yes. At that stage we were in the middle of winter and the ground, the ground was covered in snow. The only evidence you knew about habitation was the plumes of smoke. Smoke coming up from the chimneys of the houses and that sort of thing. But yes, we were, I’d never seen, well, no, I’d never seen snow in my life I don’t think and — but the ground was covered in snow although there was no problem. We were still able to fly there. The runways were still capable of being flown from. And we’ve carried on there until the 28th of February of ’42 when we were granted our wings and appointed officers. Pilot officers to start with and we, you know we awaited our — were awarded our wings. If that’s the right way of putting it.
NB: Yeah. So did you return to or come from there straight to the UK or did you have —
JLM: We had a fortnight’s leave.
NB: Right.
JLM: And three of us, I think, that used to kind of stick together quite a bit went down to New York and then transferred back up and took to Halifax where we caught the HMS, well not HMS, it was a civilian er Cape Town, the Cape Town Castle.
NB: Right.
JLM: And went to Liverpool. From Liverpool, by train, to Bournemouth where we filled in time for about, er we used to call it a holding pattern. We were there for, I think, about two months and then were posted up to Shawbury in Shropshire and did a refresher course on Airspeed Oxford. Spent a lot of time flying on Link Trainers and then we went from there to er Luff- North Luffenham the operational, the OTU.
NB: OTU. Yeah.
JLM: OTU. Operational Training Unit. There for about um about you see I’ve got these notes [unclear], I haven’t got my logbooks which I can refer to. Um, we were there for [pause] maybe, somewhere about three months I think and we were posted to Heavy Conversion Unit at Wigsley. We were flying Wellingtons at North Luffenham and that was where I had my first brush with death, I suppose, in a way.
NB: What happened?
JLM: It was in the days when they were trying to build up numbers, the bomber numbers. At the time they were experimenting with the thousand bomber raids. I don’t know about experimenting but endeavour to get a thousand bombers in the air at once. And we were on two of the, not necessarily the Bomber Command, the thousand bomber raids but trying to build up numbers to seven or eight or nine hundred bombers in the air. They employed or co-opted a lot of Operational Training Unit planes and in this case, somewhere around about September ’42 we were co-opted to go on a raid to one of the cities in Germany. And then about two nights later and with that, went on, we completed that without incident and about two nights later we were scheduled to attack another city and as is normal custom we were allocated planes which we had to take up for night flying exercises. We had a night flying test and on the — during that test I was most unhappy about the power of the, or the ability of the plane to take up a load of bombs. And I complained about this when I came down. I said, I said, I didn’t think this plane was capable of carrying two thousand pounds of bombs. And anyway, they noted my objection and that night when we took off after flying up the runway at full throttle I couldn’t get the plane to get airborne. I got it airborne — about twenty or thirty feet above the ground. I couldn’t get it any higher. Except at, even at full throttle. So, eventually had to go past the end of the runway and the bomb aimer said, ‘Trees ahead.’ And we just clipped those and we carried on and then I was still trying to get the plane to climb and then all of a sudden, well, not all of a sudden, after leaving the trees behind that I’d clipped I just, the plane just settled down on the ground in the middle of a paddock. There were buildings and that ahead of us and the trees behind and settled down quite smoothly and without any real damage. Well, without it assimilating a crash position and it caught fire and we, the crew and I, the crew all got out and the plane burned out with the bombs exploding at intervals. So that was an indication to me that maybe I might be lucky. And as it turned out that was the first evidence to me, first indication to me that maybe Lady Luck was going to be on my shoulder and so it happened right through the war. I had several instances where I felt that I was quite lucky to, to survive.
NB: Is there a feeling, or was there a feeling among the crews that you banked luck? Or —
JLM: I don’t know that we ever really discussed the situation as to whether we were lucky or [pause]. Don’t — I don’t remember as a crew. My crew, sort of, were such that they never sort of queried, never questioned my ability as a, as a pilot right through the war. There were occasions when they could have said, ‘Well, you know we were lucky there’ or, ‘What did you do that for?’ Or something like this.
NB: So, after you left HCU where were you?
JLM: I went to Heavy Conversion Unit at Wigsley.
NB: Right.
JLM: I was only there for — what? A couple of months and then I was posted to 97 Squadron at Woodhall Spa. On the 12th of December 1942.
NB: Flying?
JLM: Lancasters.
NB: On Lancs.
JLM: Oh, firstly at Luffenham, at Heavy Conversion Unit I flew the Manchesters for seven and a half hours before switching to Lancasters.
NB: Right.
JLM: And of course, when I was posted to 97 Squadron that was all Lancasters. So, I arrived on an operational squadron after about, what? Eighteen months training, to fulfil the reason why I enlisted in the first place.
NB: In the first place. And had you already crewed up by then?
JLM: Oh yeah. Well when we were at the Operational Training Unit we got our navigator [pause] navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator. It wasn’t until we got to Heavy Conversion Unit we picked up our flight engineer and the two gunners.
NB: Was there a mix of nationalities in the crew?
JLM: Yes. Well no. Only two. There was — I had two Canadians. My navigator was a Scotsman. The two Canadians were wireless operator and rear gunner and a flight engineer was an Englishmen. The flight engineer and the mid-upper gunner was English. Both English.
NB: So you were the only New Zealander on board.
JLM: I was New Zealand. Yeah.
NB: Is that why you didn’t go towards 75 Squadron?
JLM: Yeah. No, you didn’t have much option. When you finished your Heavy Conversion Unit, you were just posted.
NB: Right.
JLM: Posted here, there or anywhere. I don’t — they never called for volunteers. They never called for, like they did initially at New Plymouth. They called for your preferences. ‘Do you want to be fighter boy or do you want to be a bomber pilot and because, perhaps due to my conservative nature I think I opted to be a bomber pilot. So, yeah, so when we didn’t get, we didn’t get a full crew until we arrived at Heavy Conversion Unit.
NB: Okay. So, the op that you did when you were at OTU did that count for your tour?
JLM: No, no.
NB: So, you then started your full tour when you got to —
JLM: Yeah. When we got to Woodhall Spa on 97 Squadron we started. That was it, another funny experience in a way. It was the first and only time I felt fear. That was my very first operation which was a mining trip to the mouth of Garonne River down on the coast of France. And when we arrived at the dropping area I was thinking while waiting to get confirmation that we were, what heading I was to fly on and that sort of thing and the coast was dark and no lights to be seen on the coast was ominous and for some reason I was halfway expecting to be shot at and that sort of thing. I’ve never felt, never been able to explain the reason for that feeling fear and that’s the one and only time I ever felt fear. The rest, the other times — there was no other planes around, there were no flak anywhere. Just looked dark and ominous for some reason. And we, I was always too busy trying to get, making sure that the plane was being flown away from danger and that sort of thing in other times or just trusting to luck. I think, probably night flying over Berlin on an operation it was going to be, purely be luck to make sure that you didn’t weren’t hit by flak or caught by flak or fighters on the way in or out.
NB: So, I understand the lack of fear, was that the whole crew? You were all so busy that that was — the fear just didn’t surface while you were working, if you like.
JLM: My sense of fear?
NB: Well, you were saying that you didn’t feel fear normally because you —
JLM: Yeah.
NB: You were so busy. Did that cover the whole crew? Everyone was in that position.
JLM: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Although I don’t — I’m not sure. I’ve never ever — the funny thing I’ve never ever talked to my crew, asked them that, you know, were they scared or anything like that. And straight on — about one of the trips on Berlin. It was a pretty, pretty big raid and we were just sort of getting to the woods on the way out of Berlin and our wireless operator, Percy Pigeon, the Canadian, decided he’d come out to have a look from the cockpit and he looked out and the city was just a mass of fires and flak and searchlights. And to illustrate what I was leading up he looked out behind us at we had come through and he said, ‘Jesus Christ, have we come through that?’ I always say, ‘Well, that’s an illustration of what you don’t know, what you can’t see you don’t worry about.’ Yeah.
NB: So are there any other key points during those operations that stand out for you?
JLM: Not — well on one of the trips on 97, I think, coming back and returning to base. I think we drifted off course a little bit from it. I think it was on a trip to Berlin and coming back and I think we drifted a little bit close to either Hamburg or Duisburg. No, it can’t be Duisburg. It was one of the station, towns there and we were suddenly surrounded by flak and some fragments hit the plane and I got a little bit lodged in my flying boot but I put the nose down and started weaving, increasing speed until we got out of the troubled area.
NB: Now, obviously you were part of the dams raid. How did — when did you move it onto?
JLM: I, well we spent, I think I did twenty one trips on 97 Squadron when I read a circular letter on the notice board from group headquarters calling for volunteers from to form — from people that had, I think they specified that had — just nearing the end of their first tour which I was or just due to commence a second. Calling for volunteers to form a new squadron, to form a new squadron to attack a special target. There wasn’t, a special, I don’t think it just said the target was just something special without any evidence of what it was going to be. So, I discussed with my crew and all but my rear gunner said yes, we would. I was — they agreed that I should volunteer, which I did and posted almost the next day to Scampton where the other crews that had volunteered and, in some cases, had been picked by Gibson too because he knew them. We formed from around about the 23rd. I think I arrived on Scampton on the 23rd of May [means March] whereas some didn’t arrive until the 28th and that sort of thing. It was over a period of two or three days. The squadron was formed. Subsequently called 617.
NB: And your whole crew went with you. Even the rear gunner?
JLM: No. No. He didn’t come.
NB: He opted out.
JLM: No. He didn’t come. So, I got a new — and prior to that period when I of volunteering I [unclear] early stages of when I was on 97 my bomb aimer, when we were up at twenty thousand feet, around that, he started, he suffered from some sort of, either oxygen sickness or something like that and this happened about two, the first couple of high level bombing operations I was on. So, he was taken off operations. So, I had a succession of, of, of bomb aimers coming in to act as my bomb aimer and one situation — one bloke was a naval lieutenant who was studying bombing methods by the RAF. Yeah. I was actually sorry to leave him in a way. So, because I didn’t have a permanent bomb aimer when we volunteered I got, I got a new bomb aimer when I arrived on 617 and a new rear gunner which was Harvey Weeks, a Canadian, and the bomb aimer was Jimmy Clay.
NB: And I’m interested in how the crews — because the rest of you had been together quite a while. Bringing in new people, did that have an effect on the crew?
JLM: No. I don’t think so.
NB: No.
JLM: No.
NB: No. They fitted in well.
JLM: Yes. Yeah.
NB: So, tell me more about the, sort of, 617 preparations.
JLM: Well, we arrived there and before there was [pause] although Gibson knew what the target was I don’t think neither of the flight commanders were aware of it until quite later on. But Gibson [unclear], knowing what the target was and knowing what the range that the specifications for the flying — type of flying, the airspeed and all that sort of thing that was going to be employed or had been developed by Barnes Wallis. He knew and he decided and he decided on advice, what type of training would be required for the type of flight we were going to undertake and what the type of attack was going to be for the release of the Upkeep. And consequently we undertook, almost straight away, I think the first point, we specified and were required to undertake low level flying. Firstly, mainly in daylight and then secondly in simulated night moonlight conditions and then lastly at night. Moonlight, full moonlight. All the routes then took up out to the west of England, up through the lakes country, up to almost the border of Scotland out on to the sea and almost returned down. Turned down the North Sea and back to base. And it was on one of those training flights I had another close call in that we were travelling, it was rather a hazy, moonlight night and all of a sudden in the haze ahead of me I there appeared to be a convoy with balloons flying, attached to the ships by cable. And I yelled out to, we were flying at a level that would have been — would have gone through just above the decks of the ships. And I yelled out to the wireless operator to fire the colours of the day which he did do and in the light of the flares — the colours of the day were just coloured flares that explode. There was balloons all ahead of me attached to the ships by cable and I immediately pulled back on the stick and by the grace of God managed to get through all these without collecting any of the cables. And that was the closest, I believe, was a close call too that I overcome just by pure, pure luck.
NB: Yeah. Absolutely. If you hadn’t seen the — yeah.
JLM: So that was — our training over the next six weeks was all low flying and emphasis on from the pilot’s point of view, was on being able to assess how soon to gain height to clear obstacles that were on the route ahead. And this is where, to start with some of the pilots had a bit of, were a bit inclined to leave it too late to gain height and clipped the tops of trees and a few instances of that happened and they were returning to base with twigs and leaves and that sort of thing in the air intakes.
NB: Did you have any idea what might be ahead?
JLM: No. Not in the slightest. No. Some, there was a lot of conjecture about what the target would be and the closest anyone got to maybe what was involved was the attack on the capital ships like the Tirpitz and de Grasse. Well it wasn’t the de Grasse but attack on capital ships that sort of thing. That was the most common thought, and of course it wasn’t.
NB: So when did you find out the difference?
JLM: The afternoon of the day of the night, the day of the night of the operation when we entered the briefing room. The two flight commanders and the bombing leader and the [pause] who was the other one? Bombing. Navigator. Oh, the navigation leader. They were advised about the day about the day before briefing day of what the target was. And I’m in no doubt that they went into detail at that stage of what was required of our, flying the route in and the actual attack and that sort of thing. The only, only indication of perhaps what might be involved was about the three days. The 11th, 12th and 13th of May with these, the Upkeeps had been arriving on the station and twelve planes took part in trials, or test trials with the Upkeeps down on the Firth of Thames [Reculver] and six out of those twelve aircraft through either flying too high or like here flying too low were damaged by splash from, yeah splash from the bomb hitting the water, hitting the tail of the aircraft. Six of them. Five of them were repaired in time for the operation and one was so badly damaged that it couldn’t be repaired in time. The one that was hit by Henry Maudslay. So he was given another plane. We only had one or two spare planes and he was — we used all the planes except that one that was damaged.
NB: So how many planes went out that night?
JLM: Nineteen went over and only eleven came back.
NB: So, tell me more about the briefing and —
JLM: Well, we when we were called for briefing at a certain time we would be there at four o’clock or some time in the afternoon. And the first thing they did was look at the big boards and all the tapes from base to the target and back again and the tapes that all showed us leading to the dams. That didn’t worry, I don’t think that worried the crews unduly. What did worry them was the fact that the route from the, as we hit the Ruhr Valley to the targets we were in the Ruhr, the most heavily defended area in Germany was the Ruhr Valley and I think that worried the crews more than anything.
NB: Rightly so.
JLM: Hmmn?
NB: Rightly so. So, I mean how long was the briefing and how detailed was it and —?
JLM: I don’t really, I can’t, I can’t remember how long the briefing was. I think it was probably about an hour and a half and we went back and had our pre-op meal and we took off at 19 — 7.28. It was in the — what was that? May. Be coming up to Spring.
NB: Spring. Yeah.
JLM: Yeah. So, there was, it wasn’t — no, from memory now, yes. One plane took off ahead of me and you could see him, so yes you could see them so it was starting to get dusk and then it got dark and you were relying on the moon from a little after leaving the coast at Skegness. Ah yeah.
NB: And what was the sort of progression for you that night?
JLM: Hmmn?
NB: What was the progression for you that night?
JLM: Well, I — our, we had been selected, my crew and all the group of four that had been selected to fly to attack the Sorpe dam and we — our route was almost due east of Lincoln. Crossing the coast somewhere around Skegness there and flying due east again until we hit a point north of, north of the island of — [pause] — yeah. Yeah it would be north of the island of Zeeland, just past the other one there. What was the name? Texel. Yeah. Texel, yeah. And I was, when we turned and then we had to turn right so the navigator said, ‘Right, turn right and due course such and such’ and after we’d been flying for a quarter of an hour or ten minutes. Less than that. Only a few minutes. Ten minutes probably. I thought I could see the breakers ahead and the sand dunes behind it and I gained height to clear the sand dunes and started, had covered the crest of the sand dunes and was losing power, losing height rather, to get down to the water on the other side which was the Wadden Sea. And I saw, suddenly saw a line of flak at come towards me and felt a small thump and lost all communication and electricity as a result of being hit by a twenty shell, twenty mil shell and a hole blown in the side of the aircraft. And that, was the result of that that I couldn’t communicate with the crew so I asked my wireless operator, thinking that he would be the best one to look at any question of restoring the inter-communication intercom and also to check on the rear gunner to see that he was alright. And I just circled around the Wadden Sea on the red while he did that until he came back and said no it was not possible to restore communication. And my thinking then was that okay we need that communication for the navigator and the pilot to be able to converse and for the pilot to accept the directions of the navigator when to turn on the route. And secondly, if by any chance we were able to get to the target area it was imperative that the bomb aimer and the pilot were able to communicate with each other. So, I made the, it wasn’t a difficult decision in many ways because there was very little alternative. I think it was very dangerous for the, for me as captain to carry on. And made the decision to return to base so had the situation of the same gun emplacement firing at us as we crossed the sand dunes on the way out again. Yeah. I thought that was rather significant. But fortunately, they didn’t hit us. There was a lot of conjecture later on, John Sweetman and one or two others. Well, John Sweetman, I think he believed, in his investigation, determined that I was hit by a flak ship but I say my navigator not my navigator, Jimmy Clay, my bomber aimer, was inclined to agree. Whereas my mid-upper gunner who had a bird’s eye view of where the flak came from believed it was a land-based gun emplacement that hit me and that’s what I think happened. So a little bit of a difference of opinion between John, John Sweetman and me on that one.
NB: The net result was the same.
JLM: Hmmn?
NB: The net result was the same.
JLM: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so that was my experience on the dams raid. Yeah. And when I got back we returned to the mess after being debriefed and we got periodic reports that such and such had been shot down and such and such had been shot down. And it was after debriefing when those survivors had come back and returned to the mess — started celebrating and I felt embarrassed that I’d been present during the celebrations because I hadn’t achieved what they had done and I felt, you know, rather embarrassed about that.
NB: I can understand but [pause] so how many ops did you complete in total during your time with Bomber Command?
JLM: Altogether — fifty eight.
NB: And you chose to go for a second tour.
JLM: I did another thirty six, thirty six. I think it was thirty six operations on 617 before the AOC for 5 Group took us, took Leonard Cheshire and myself and Joe McCarthy and Dave Shannon off operations and wouldn’t brook any argument about that.
NB: And then —
JLM: He said he wanted me to take over 1690 Bomber Defence Training Flight. Which I did. Spent a year on that.
NB: Right.
JLM: Flying Hurricanes.
NB: Enjoy it?
JLM: Yeah. I did enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah.
NB: So, I mean looking, looking back were there any real highlights and lowlights of your time in the Command?
JLM: I don’t know about, well, lowlight. The only lowlight really was, well lowlights was [pause] well I don’t know that’s a hard one to answer. Every operation, to a large extent every operation had the same sense, same degree of danger. You were likely to be attacked by a night fighter, particularly on the main, the main operations on 97 when you were on attacking the German towns. Yes, there was always the danger of night fighters and then you also, combined with that was the danger of being hit by flak. And I had, you know the time I was surrounded by flak on my right foot panel and I suppose I was lucky to escape any — apart from little bits of shrapnel, bits lodging in my flying boot. Nothing, nothing really untoward there. I managed to escape from that situation and had one or two other. One, later on when 617 was engaged in the attacking single targets we were taking, at low level, an electricity transfer station, or transformer station in northern Italy which we were due to, which we were bombing with five hundred pounders and because of haze we had difficulty in identifying the target and I think I gradually crept a bit lower and lower and when the bombs went off a bit of shrapnel came and hit my bomb aimer right on the tip of his nose [with humour]. Yeah. So I suppose that was a bit quiet, a bit close. But any highlights. Oh, highlights really was when a raid was successful. You felt a sense of pride. Particularly when we were, I was marking at low level in the early stages of 617 carrying out special operations, single, on single targets. Not like the main bomber force, blanket bombing. When we were, on one or two occasions when we marked the target with the coloured bombs dropped right on them, that was a sense of achievement, I think. Yeah.
NB: And how long did you stay in. And were you demobbed in ’45 or —
JLM: Yeah. I, as I said I spent twelve months on 1690 Bombing Defence Flight and that was where we were a small flight of fighter planes who were attacking drogues in daytime and night-time. Acting as enemy fighters attacking the bombers and the bomber’s pilots — they were training in evasive tactics with the, with the gunners having cameras in their, in their turrets and being able to check on how whether they would have shot us down if it had it been real.
NB: Right.
JLM: I enjoyed that. I did about two hundred and something hours on Hurricanes. I didn’t enjoy night flying because I always worried that okay, acting as a fighter at night time, would I pull out in time without colliding with a Lancaster? That was one fear I had but, I mean I persevered in that type of thing and I got — yep. I thought it was nice to be able to fly in a single engine fighter after a four engine Lancaster. Yeah.
NB: A bit more nimble.
JLM: Hmmn?
NB: A bit more nimble.
JLM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
NB: So —
JLM: I must say another sense of achievement I think was in Operation Taxable was when the spoof operation on D-day. I felt a sense of achievement to have participated in that although it was — it wasn’t a dangerous mission. It wasn’t. But though the one, there was, that took part in several phases to that, there were other planes operating. And I think 218 Squadron lost four planes, I think. They were further up. Attacking, you know. And we were down by a [unclear] Calais and we flew Leonard, I was privileged to have Leonard Cheshire fly as my second pilot on that operation. We had, you know, we had we flew individual, each crew flew for two, each crew but divided in to one hour just flying these oblong series dropping the — what’s the —?
NB: Radar?
JLM: Radar. Yeah. Dropping aluminium. No, it’s not radar.
NB: Oh, the aluminium foil.
JLM: Yeah.
NB: Yeah.
JLM: I think there was a common name for it [Window].
NB: Yeah.
JLM: No. never mind. Yeah.
NB: I’m in a similar state. So, when you came out did you continue to fly? When you left the RAF.
JLM: Well only to the extent that in Gisborne, I returned home to Gisborne and it was not long afterwards they decided they’d form an aero club and I was part of that. Or part of that decision and I actually lent the club fifty pound, I think it was, as part of, to finance a Tiger Moth and I did five hours on the Tiger Moth and before my — I sort of got involved with a certain woman and I couldn’t get married and we couldn’t afford to get married and also fly too so I gave any thoughts of flying away.
NB: It’s those women again [laughs]. That’s brilliant. Have you got any particular thoughts that you want recording as to how Bomber Command should be remembered? How you’d like them to be remembered.
JLM: Well no, I was and still am very critical of the fact that it took the English peoples sixty seven years before there was a satisfactory memorial erected to remember or to recognise the contribution that fifty five thousand five hundred and seventy three people gave their lives. I think, and as, when it happened, I think that the resulting memorial was I did, did was was a significant reflection on those, the loss of those lives. I think it was what BB, what was his name that started it off and the three blokes, you probably know their names.
NB: Gibb.
JLM: The sculptor and the designer and that I think did a great job. If — if I would have a real difficulty in making any criticism of the memorial as a resulting memorial. I think it’s quite a good one. I think it’s quite a good one. And that led me to the medal saga.
NB: Yes.
JLM: Yeah. I think God you wouldn’t want to see this deteriorate for lack of money. And I, it wasn’t until I, with the boys and my daughter-in-law, visited the memorial in ’13 — what was I leading up to? And it wasn’t until then in company with Anna Marie Fairburn who was communications, one of the leading positions in the RAF Benevolent Fund. It wasn’t until then that I was aware, became aware that the RAF Benevolent Fund had been given the responsibility of the maintenance of that and I really, you know, I thought that was a hell of a big ask.
NB: Yeah.
JLM: And I think in a way, in a way I think that was unfair of the government.
NB: We think the same.
JLM: Yeah.
NB: Thank you for that. Thank you [pause]. Gosh, you must be exhausted. All that.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AMunroL150604
Title
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Interview with Les Munro
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:52:53 audio recording
Creator
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Nicky Barr
Date
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2015-06-15
Description
An account of the resource
John Leslie Munro was born in the area of Gisborne, New Zealand. He only completed two years of secondary education because of the economic slump and in 1936 began work on a sheep ranch and then a mixed farm. On the outbreak of the Second World War, he was determined to train as a pilot. He had to complete a correspondence course first to improve his qualifications. He began his training at Number 2 Elementary Flying Training School, going solo after six and a half hours’ training. He completed his training in Canada. After time on Operational Training Units at RAF Shawbury and RAF North Luffenham, and the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Wigsley, he was posted to 97 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa. He volunteered and was accepted for the special squadron being assembled by Guy Gibson. With 617 Squadron, he embarked on further training that would lead to the Eder, Möhne and Sorpe operations. En route to the dams his aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire, losing all communication and had to return to RAF Scampton. Of the 58 operations Munro completed while in RAF Bomber Command, 36 were with 617 Squadron. He was taken off active operational duty to command 1690 Bomber Defence Training Flight. He participated in Operation Taxable, a decoy operation connected to D-Day. Munro recounts several near misses, such as almost hitting the barrage balloons hoisted from a convoy on the North Sea. He was highly supportive of the unveiling of the Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park and in particular, ensuring that it would be properly maintained.
Contributor
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Brian May
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
New Zealand
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Rutland
England--Shropshire
England--London
California--San Francisco
United States
California
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
1944
1945
617 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bouncing bomb
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
fear
Flying Training School
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Manchester
memorial
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Normandy deception operations (5/6 June 1944)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Scampton
RAF Shawbury
RAF Wigsley
RAF Woodhall Spa
take-off crash
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/320/3477/ARankineS170228.1.mp3
cc3b68c4c81c8d0146d37162b6bd5c67
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Rankine, Sheila
S Rankine
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Sheila Rankine.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Rankine, S
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PL: My name’s Pam Locker and I’ve come to interview Mrs Sheila Rankine of [redacted] Bath on the 28th of February 2017. So, can I just start Mrs Rankine by saying an enormous thank you for agreeing to, to see us and tell us your very unique story. So, so would you like to just start by telling us a little bit about your family life and the build up to what happened during the war? What your experiences were during the war.
SR: Well, going back to the beginning of the war when I was sixteen I was living at home with my parents and my father had a business in Grimsby which was a retail business in the High Street. And of course, we lived quite a comfortable life so you know it was all rather soul destroying when I remember getting the news about when they announced that we were at war. My mother was very upset because my brother was with the P&O liners, my elder brother and he was down, the ship was then in Yokohama which of course was becoming a dangerous area in Singapore. So mother was upset because my father had served in the First War, in the Somme and he’d been wounded. But, you know after that we just accepted what, you know what everybody else did as the war started. And then I had been going to art school because I’d got an art scholarship. And then I was working for the Singer Sewing Machine Company, demonstrating for them on certain materials, you know. So, quite happy and complacent about everything, I suppose. We just got on with it. And then of course it came that they started to conscript women and so, when I was eighteen I got conscription papers and went to report down at the, at the Recruiting Office and I’d been very anxious to join the WAAFs because I thought that was a lovely sounding [laughs] everything looked so good. The adverts with the uniforms and everything. So I was quite certain that I’d be joining the WAAFs. So, and I said to this recruiting officer and she was quite a stern lady. I remember her. I can see her now and she said, ‘Oh, we don’t want any more forces. We’ve got enough this week.’ She said, ‘We’re having to draft in to the factories. We badly need aircraft productions.’ So, I said, ‘Oh, I don’t want to work in a factory.’ It seemed a bit against my, what I’d even thought of, you know. So she said, ‘Well, I’m sorry,’ she said, ‘What’s the good of having so many airmen and, and no aircraft for them to fly?’ So, she said, ‘I’m afraid, you know, that that is where we will send you.’ So, you know, I went home. I wasn’t very happy about it and I thought oh well, you know, have to accept it. So, I met somebody on the day that they told, they gave us all our details to go. I met a girl on the station platform that she’d been recruited as well. Hadn’t met her before but was introduced to her and off, you know off we set to and we were met by a billeting officer who took us to lodgings in Gainsborough. And they were the same as us, they had to, if they had a spare bedroom they had to take in conscripted people that came to the town. So, and then of course my first introduction to the factory life then. It was obviously so noisy but fortunately we were, went up on to this gallery because they were obviously training the new girls on this gallery and so it was a bit quieter than the main workshop. So, and then they were looking to our work. I think when I first joined and we made a lot of mistakes when they were teaching us how to use it I think I got called Scrapper Kidler at the time [laughs]. But eventually, you know we were trained to operate from finishing to about very low thousandths of an inch and so we just took, we just did the work that was brought up to us, you know. It varied from, there was barrage balloons and these screw things, and Spitfire parts. We didn’t really always know what we were doing. Just gave us boxes of things to do and then it was checked by the foreman to see that it was finished properly and, and off it went. So, and I was there for probably two years. Just about two years before the Dambusters raid was arranged and we knew there was quite a lot of busy work going on in the factory because the men had seemed to be working a lot of overtime. And on one occasion they were, they were nearly all night and we thought oh, you know why they have they got to do a double shift? But they did have a restroom and we had a canteen. But then we were brought up some boxes of brass components and finished them. Apparently, that was part of the mechanism that operated the bomb and of course, again we didn’t know what it was for. None of us did really. Even the men in the workshops because everything had to be so secret. So all the activity that we knew was going on down because we overlooked the main workshop. We just thought it was just part of the war effort really. So, it was quite a surprise when we finally were told what it was actually done and that was the morning after the raid when the announcement came over the tannoy that the work that had been done, ‘Now you know what the work was that you’d been involved in.’ So of course, the men were delighted because they’d worked really hard. I mean, we just finished these brass components but I think the main work was done by the men having to keep doing the modifications that Barnes Wallis, you know worked on to get it accurate. Afterwards we saw a demonstration in a smaller, in the actual factory. They’d got this water and there were small replicas of the bomb. Showed how it bounced, you know, so but it was all beforehand. As I say we were just factory workers. That’s all we knew really. So that was quite a thing at the time for the factory. And of course, Alfie Rose used to work on the wharf because we were on the River Trent and Alfie Rose, who was our boss he worked on the wharf tirelessly on a, with a part of a rear gunner’s turret and he was trying to improve because the rear turret the gunner couldn’t bale out. He’d have to go back to the mid-upper turret to get his parachute so that was a delay if there was a, you know, an incident. And eventually Alfie perfected this where there was this piece at the back and it went out the side so they could have their parachute, had room for it and then tip out on the side if there was an incident. And that I believe is in the museum at Hendon. I think it says on it Rose, “Rose’s Turret.” So that was his achievement. So, he was quite a clever man. So that’s because we were so close to Scampton, you see it was, the factory that was so near that there was no, I suppose there wasn’t quite the same concern that it might leak out because it was only a few miles away from Scampton Aerodrome so, we were able to operate without people noticing a lot of activity I suppose really. So that was just my couple of years with the factory.
PL: So it was Alfie Roses’s factory in Gainsborough.
SR: Yeah.
PL: And what was the, what was the name of the factory? Did they say it was sort of an engineering factory or what was it before it was taken over for war work?
SR: Well, can, Andrew, can you get the book? I think I’ve got something there. It was, I think their main job was designing machinery for tea, wasn’t it? There was tea and various products for food.
PL: So, in the sort of processing of food.
SR: Yeah.
PL: Right.
SR: Yes. It was machinery that was needed to process food, and tea especially I believe. Packaging tea. And so, but that was Rose Brothers as it was. I mean obviously quite a long going business from pre-war. But of course, I wasn’t aware of how important the factory was because we just went. You know, we were just sent there and that was, that was all we knew. We had to go and do our bit.
PL: So, so did you believe you were going to work in aeroplane manufacture? Parts for aeroplanes.
SR: Yes. Well, that was what they said when I was recruited and when she said that there’s no good having a lot of airmen when there’s no aeroplanes for them to fly. And so she said, you know this is part of the, what we need. So just that was what we presumed we were doing. Parts for aeroplanes. And that proved so. Whatever else was done in the factory was more or less related to aircraft and so that was the changeover from the tea manufacturing thing that they did. We were all, you know —
PL: But it sounds, it sounds like it was also very involved with the research and development of new things.
SR: Yes. I think it was possibly, you know and actually not told really much about what you were doing. Of course, it was all [pause] but I know that we were doing parts for Spitfires because I remember we were told the sighting, you know when they look through to get the, it was the sort of sighting from the, on there when they were flying and looking out for the enemy. That part we did. And I did a lot of ball bearings which were a bit of a bore for the, for the rear turret to run around on. So there was the ball bearings. So, parts we did know what they were but we just waited for the men to come up with boxes of things for us to get on and do it, you know. So, and so of course at that age we were a little bit involved in going to the dance that night so [laughs] you know, we, we just, they told me what we were doing and we were more interested in going down to the local dance hall about three times a week. And of course, there was always plenty of airmen there, partners there so, we had a good time really. But the hours were long. You had to go shifts which were six in the morning ‘til six at night. And then, then we went on to night shift which of course stopped us going out but we did night shift from six at night ‘til six in the morning. So, we had twelve hours shifts.
PL: So, what would a typical twelve hour shift be? I mean, I know you were doing lots of different jobs but what sort of things would you actually be doing?
SR: Well, it would just be whatever was on the day. You know, what had been given us to, it might have been a week or two on the same thing. I remember doing some barrage balloon screw work where they anchored the balloon down to the ground and had to have these things to screw in and we never really were told, it was just, not very often anyway. But we just used to, we were just there to do what they brought up for us to do and then the foreman used to come around and make sure that we were, we got the finishing accurate and then we just carried on with this. A box of, you know, whatever. So it was just, you know just giving us —
PL: And what was the, what was the atmosphere in the factory like? I mean, was there music or was there breaks and —
SR: Oh yes. They used to have this, yeah we used to have this music that they put on. Works. Worker’s Playtime wasn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. But of course, being noisy but we were lucky really because we hadn’t got quite so much noise being up in the gallery. But they did have the music blared out. And of course the main workshop was set at the back so they had more noise than we would have and there was a lot heavy work being done. And there were some women down there so, we were lucky that we were put on to the gallery and then taught how to finish. And I never knew quite why we were chosen but maybe because we’d had a bit more mathematical education and so we were better off up there really as regards the noise and the intensity of the factory. We had a canteen and used to get a, you know an hour’s break. But during the day we could go home. I used to go back to my lodgings. It wasn’t far away. We used to get the meals there until nights of course. We couldn’t do that so we went in to the canteen. And then there was the odd incident. Gainsborough was fairly well protected. The main bombing areas were Lincoln. So we, we didn’t really have a lot of worry about bombings. Except we could, we could often see the lights and knew what was going on in Lincoln. But one night when we were on nights, when I was on nights and went up to the canteen and it was a hot, quite a hot summer night. I think it was about May, and we went in to, on to the veranda and it was a bright moonlight night and I was saying to my friend, I said, ‘Oh, there’s a plane.’ And you could hear him coming and just thought it was one of ours scouting, you know. Anyway, then suddenly we could see the bombs leave the aircraft and I said to Mary, I said, ‘Crikey’ I said, ‘look’ I said, ‘he’s dropping some bombs,’ I said, ‘It’s a German.’ So, we dashed back in to the canteen and we all shot under the tables. And it missed our factory except that it did, one bomb did land in the marshalling yard which was nearer the Trent. But the factory opposite, which was Marshall’s and they did a lot of heavy work like tanks and big, and they caught the front of their factory. But the other two bombs I think fell in to the main town. I think Woolworth’s got it. But of course, it was night time. There was nobody really injured and we thought that maybe he was scouting and would be coming back the next night because he had seen all the chimneys you see. There was other factories as well so, but anyway we heard that he had been shot down as he crossed the coast. So that was, that was the only time that we really had any bombing in Gainsborough itself. But it was, I can always remember seeing that. It was so bright moonlight but as he dived you could see the bombs leave the aircraft so, and we all dashed in under the tables. We did have a, we did have an air raid shelter down at the back of the factory but of course we didn’t have time to go down there anyway. So, I think they marshalled us down there just in case there was any more following him but it all went very quiet so it was a, it was a little bit of a sort of one. They said he strayed from, thought he’d strayed from the Lincoln raid, got lost then he must have spotted the chimneys.
PL: So, so working in your gallery where you were working in the factory how many of there were you roughly?
SR: On the gallery?
PL: Yes.
SR: There was only five of us. That’s all. Yeah
PL: Right.
SR: Yeah.
PL: So, you all had your own machines to work.
SR: Yeah, we each had our own machine. Yes. So we worked more or less on the same job that came up in boxes according to how many of course there were. One girl was a girl that had worked there before the war. She was a, so she was fully trained and so she helped us a lot if we needed it. I think she was put there really to, or we were put with her to make sure that, but the main thing was that we were trained. And the foreman used to come and check our work and there was always somebody around to make sure you’re not, you know. Sort of getting on with the work that you’re supposed to do.
[clock chiming – LOUDLY]
SR: I should have switched that off shouldn’t I?
[pause]
PL: So, so the five of you must have been a tight group then.
SR: Oh yes. We were. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
PL: All good friends.
SR: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. The one that was obviously a local person and she was a bit older than us and been trained you know as a job from the early days when, before the war so she’d got a family and other things so, but the four of us that were recruits we were quite friendly. Yes. And we used to go to as many dances as we could. Of course, we couldn’t do it on nights but I think we used to go about, at least, well three to four times a week because there were dances at the Drill Hall and local Assembly Rooms. And when you think that we used to get up at half past five at least in the morning, 5 o’clock the alarm went off and we, you know but we still went dancing ‘til midnight probably. So, you know it was, it was you know quite a happy life in a way for us. Accept that we just had to make the best of it because, you know going home occasionally at the weekends. I mean my parents were quite comfortable but we didn’t expect the luxuries that we had at home you know. We, our landlord, lady was very good. We always had a good meal but it wasn’t quite so luxurious as the home I’d been used to because a lot of those houses in Gainsborough they didn’t even have bathrooms. Of course, I’d never been brought up with that because I remember someone saying to me, ‘Do you remember the tin baths?’ I said, ‘No, I’m afraid I don’t.’ I was lucky enough that my parents always had a bathroom but that was just because my father was in business and my grandparents were, you know had had a fairly comfortable life, I suppose. But, you know, you just had to accept it. You had to get [pause] So that was a time when, you know, as I say we missed the, some of the conveniences and I think in the forces they always had showers and bathrooms but we didn’t and there used to be a local place you could go to to get a bath and we used to pay sixpence or something. So —
PL: So, like a bathhouse in Gainsborough.
SR: A bathhouse. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
PL: So, would have been, what was that like?
SR: Well, you just used to go and pay your money and then they’d give you a room, you know obviously with a bath in it and then, and the hot water and then it was rather strange because when the water cooled because you know how you like to have a soak in the bath and then you’d have to shout for him to put some more hot water in [laughs] And you’d say, ‘ Hot water. More hot water please.’ And some of us would, you know, so but we used to have a laugh about all that because it was something that was quite foreign to us. And then when I used to go home at the weekends of course I always had an extra bath before I went back. But I mean there’s, it’s a sort of thing that the soldiers all had to put up with, didn’t they? So we just accepted it. And especially when you’d been working in a factory you really need a bath every day but you just used to have to make do with a strip down wash and things like that. So you put up with it really. And then we used to go to the, hadn’t time to always go to the bath house. It was only occasionally. But you know that was all part of —
PL: So what about rations? What sort of meals did you have? What was your diet like?
SR: Well, my, my landlady was quite good. We always had a roast dinner of sorts and she did, she used to make a very good fruit cake. And our tea when we had our, we used to go home at half past nine in the morning starting at six. We could, it wasn’t very far our lodgings. So we were allowed to go home for half an hour so she always used to find something to cook us in the morning if it was an egg on toast or a bacon ration or something like that. And then we used to have our main meal. And then at tea time it was a case of bread and butter and homemade jam because her husband, he made, he always used to make strawberry jam because you know, you had the fruit and then you used to get a sugar ration for fruit when it was in season. So he used to make strawberry jam. So I remember our tea was usually bread and butter and strawberry jam and a piece of fruitcake and that was the same more or less every day. And our sandwiches when she used to pack us up at night was always cheese because there was so little meat to spare. So it was always a case of a cheese sandwich because the canteen was alright and had fish and chips and things but at 2 o’clock in the morning you don’t really want that do you? Of course, during the day we could go home and have our meals but it was the night time. We used to go home for supper which was usually a sandwich or something. And then after going to bed at, got home just after 6 o’clock used to go to bed ‘til about two and then she always had a meal for us then because you know they’d had their lunchtime meal because that was normal then to cook. They used to have their lunchtime meal and so there was always a meal first for me when I got up and I remember she used to put it on a saucepan of hot water to heat through. So, so we had that and then there was, we used to finish then at and so the meals just had to coincide with our shifts really. And then there was always, you know an apple or something like that because that was quite common. Fruit was quite easy to get. Not, of course, we never had bananas or oranges, things like that because they weren’t imported but, but there was always plenty of apples and local plums and that. Whatever was in season. So —
PL: So, how many of you were staying in the boarding house? Was it just —
SR: Just two.
PL: Two.
SR: Yeah. Just two. Yeah. Yeah.
PL: And was one of the others one of the people working with you?
SR: Yeah. yeah. That was one of the one’s I went away with when we met to come together. She was more or less, I think they lived in Grimsby and yes she was a nice girl and we got on quite well so —
PL: So, what did you wear?
SR: We had overalls of green. We used to, they gave us trousers which wasn’t common use then for girls but we had trousers and special shoes because all the liquid, I can’t remember the name of it now it used to come down to keep your tools cool. You know, there was always, it was always running on to the tools and of course it used to get on to the floor so they gave us special shoes because if you wore your own shoes, they had to be flats of course it would rot the soles so we had like a clog. And, and then we had green overalls and trousers of course and then a cap. And we did have, the boss asked us if we would design a better sort of a hat because he wasn’t used to these girls coming in like us with long hair which was the fashion then and of course leaning over your machine that was a danger to get it caught it up. So he, and so he said, we used to have to tie it back and then even that he thought wasn’t immediately safe so he asked us if we could design something to wear for that. He gave us all a chance and I designed one. It was a peak. A peak with a net type thing that came and you tucked all your hair in it. And so, and so when they took up the designs that we’d given mine was chosen and I got an extra week’s wages for that [laughs] Which was well worth having. Well, it was three pounds a week we used to earn so by the time you’d paid your lodgings out of it there wasn’t a lot left but you know that was for your pocket money and that was that.
PL: But a great achievement to have got that.
SR: To get a week’s wages was quite good.
PL: What about gloves? Did you wear gloves?
SR: No. No. No. Because the precision of the tools was so close and then we had to measure you see. Each tool had to be measured at the end and it was, I can’t remember what they called it. I always think of a thermometer but it wasn’t and I used to put it on and screw it down and it would register that it was within about three oh I should say about three thou, three to five thou to be accurate. Because if not they were scrapped and if you scrapped too many then there was a bit of problems. But they were all checked. Every one was checked that we had to be accurate because that was the last part probably to fit it into the main component. But I don’t think we took it all that seriously at the time. We just sort of hoped that everything was ok but, but you know we, we had to do our job but yeah, it was something that you had to accept but it wasn’t my choice of a career really. But after about two and a half years we, because the war then, we were in to ’44, the beginning of ’44 we were asked because it wasn’t such, quite such a demand that we could transfer. So I asked for a transfer and I went. They sent me to a Ordnance Depot in Leicestershire and I went in to the office. So I was a wage clerk then because and there was such big, it was all planning for D-Day. There were so many sheds, soldiers and civilian workmen and I was paying policemen on the site. There was ninety civilian policemen and I had to pay their wages and we used to have to go around on a Friday with the money, all the packets, on to these sheds and pay all the workers. Because there were eight of us in the wage office and it was all, we were actually attached to the Army and our, in charge of our office was a staff sergeant and we worked with the racks. There was half civilian and half Army and when it was approaching D-Day which again we didn’t know about we were asked to go in to the sheds and help finish some of the packing. We used to be knocking nails in boxes. And then of course there was a big lot of movement going on and all this equipment obviously went off ready for D-Day and there was a lot of field telephones I remember and tanks and all sorts. It was a huge place, Old Dalby near Leicestershire. And then of course we went in to lodgings in the village. One of the villages. Again, we were recruited in to, billeted you know. We had a billeting officer so but that was quite a nice change from working in a factory really and I was there ‘til after the war finished. 1945, I think. So —
PL: So, was there a sense that things were winding down at Rose’s?
SR: Yeah. Yeah.
PL: In terms of war work.
SR: There was. Yeah. Yeah.
PL: So was there a request for being assigned elsewhere or did you, did you volunteer for that?
SR: Well, we were just told that I think we were, it was an option. You know if anyone wanted to, it was allowed because we’d done our two years. So I think it was after that and then it was beginning to wind down you see because it was the beginning of ’44. I mean there had been a lot of bombing raids but it was beginning to, and the war was beginning to develop better for us wasn’t it, and I think probably they’d got enough. They were, after that there weren’t perhaps the bombing raids that they’d been having earlier in, in the war but it was, if I remember it’s just, it was just an option that if you wanted to. Because we were recruits you know that we had an option I think. Some, some liked factory work but I didn’t particularly. I thought I’d quite like to get a change, you know. And I think I’d, the pressure had been you know I felt doing long shifts and I felt, you know that, a bit weary and I thought it was a chance to I mean just to have a change and get back to more or less the work that I was happier doing I suppose. But you get used to factory work you know.
PL: So, going, going back briefly to the factory so I understand you met Barnes Wallis.
SR: No. I didn’t meet him. No. No. It was, he was obviously coming in down to the main workshops because of these modifications. But it was after the raid, about a week or so later after obviously the crews were busy elsewhere but I remember them coming, the foreman coming up and saying, ‘Oh, we’ve got some visitors today.’ And he said, ‘Some of them, you’ll be seeing some of them up here.’ And he didn’t tell us a lot about it really but he just said it was coming from Scampton. And then there was a spiral staircase that led down from our gallery down to the main work area and I remember the girl on the end, Mary, she said, she said, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘There’s somebody’s coming up.’ She said, ‘Oh, I can see the flat caps. It’s airmen.’ Because you see as they came up the spiral staircase you could, all you could see was the flats of their, of their hats. So she said, ‘Oh, it’s airmen,’ she said. So, of course, so we all were expecting these to come up and of course it was Guy Gibson and some of his crew. But I think there was only about four of them. It wasn’t the whole crew. Just whoever was with him at the time. There was a lot of them went into the workshop downstairs but obviously they’d said that we’d contributed so they came up the spiral staircase and just chatted with us along, along the row and at the time I don’t think we really thought it was that, that important, you know.
PL: Can you remember what they said?
SR: No. They just said, ‘Oh —’ you know, they looked at the machines and they said, ‘Oh, this is where you obviously made some of our equipment.’ And you know, it wasn’t very much really and then they walked along and just stood a minute or two and then off they went again. So, but it was just the fact that I always remember that part where they were coming up the spiral staircase. We could see the, the uniform and the flat caps, you know.
PL: Yeah.
SR: We didn’t really know who it was going to be until the foreman was, whoever was with them just introduced them as who they were. But I don’t remember the names and I don’t even remember because the only member of the crew left now at this time is Johnny Johnson, isn’t it? Who was the mid-upper gunner, I believe. I don’t know whether he was one of them because I couldn’t really tell you the names except that we knew the one that we remember is the one, that it was Guy Gibson and he brought some of the crew. Well, whether there was any more downstairs I don’t know but I think there was only about four with him. But of course there was seven in a crew so probably weren’t all available at the, or why they arranged it. But we knew nothing about it until they actually arrived. But there is also in the Gainsborough Museum there’s a table cloth that Mrs Rose used to have when she had any important visitors and obviously because of the war work and everything there was quite a lot of important names on it and it is in the museum. And she used to get them to sign it and then she would embroider their signatures and it was actually on the television in the Antiques Roadshow at one time just demonstrating it and there was all these names. Barnes Wallis and Guy Gibson as well as many others that had obviously visited the factory and had visited their home because they had a home just further up on the Trent. And so all that was obviously proved that these were people that came to the factory. So that was quite a thing that we saw at the time and so all the names obviously as, they were signed as they visited.
PL: Did you feel after the, I mean you were very young but did you feel after the Dambusters raid and all the fuss that was made about it did you feel differently about the work that you were doing in the factory? I mean, did you sort of feel actually this is much more, there’s all sorts of interesting things going on here or did, was it just, did it just —
SR: No. Not really. I just think it was all part of the, the things —
PL: Part of the job.
SR: Part of the job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because a lot of the work that was, we did, we didn’t really know what it was. How important it was going to be. But obviously it was just these parts of aircraft and Spitfires as well apparently. And then there was some rather mundane jobs that went, you know. I used to like to do the one that was small and had a, but some of the bigger things like to do with the barrage balloons and that you know they were a bit sort of ordinary I suppose. I liked it when it was a bit more intricate. Yeah. But we really didn’t, we didn’t sort of think it was so, we knew they were classed as an important raid because we were told after the, the day after it was announced on the tannoy that, ‘Now the work that you’ve been doing you can, you know what it was.’ So that was quite exciting at the time but then you soon forget that, you know. You go on to something else, don’t you?
PL: So, I’m interested to know a little bit more about the Rose’s because they sound like a very interesting family. So, so, Mr Rose himself what was your impression of him? Did you —
SR: Yeah. Alfie.
PL: Yeah.
SR: He was the son of the original Rose’s’ but yeah he was a lovely, very nice, friendly man. Yes. And because he used to, we used to admire him for sitting, he used to sit outside on the wharf because the back of the factory doors went out on to the wharf and we could see through the windows you know that, being up on the gallery and he would sit out there and he had this rear turret. We didn’t know what he was doing. You know, we weren’t really told that sort of, but we knew how much he was working on it and thinking, well there was something he was obviously working hard with and that’s what it turned out to be. That he was trying to improve the rear turret for the rear gunner and of course he eventually he did. So he was quite a clever man. I think the factory itself had got a, had a good name for manufacturing. But as I say it’s all —
PL: Does it still exist?
SR: No. No. It’s gone now. Gainsborough itself, it’s, it’s all been pulled down. It’s gone, and it’s a park and I think they call it the Rose’s Park. Yeah. But they were, there was, there is a lot of history about the Rose family in the book published “Rose Brothers, Gainsborough.” And so it’s quite interesting as I say but I didn’t know very much about factory life at all really. I didn’t know what, you know before I was called up to do some. So —
PL: So, going back then, catapulting forward to your work in preparation for D-Day. So, what, when you were in Leicestershire so, what happened next? So, you worked up to D-Day I’m guessing and then what happened?
SR: Well, then of course, because it was D-Day and a lot of the forces then were, I think the [unclear] after all the equipment and everything that was needed and the Old Dalby still existed and I think it did for quite a while but because we were then running down on the staffing that was needed and then we had the option if we, we could stay on. A certain amount of us were allowed to stay on for a while and then, then we were given the option to be discharged. So we got a, because while I was working for them as the Army we used to have to have Army passes to go home. We had leave and we had leave passes and we had to operate the same as the Army did really except for going into private billets. But the rules were the same for us and then of course we were told that if we wanted to apply after May or June it was we could then apply for a discharge. Because gradually of course a lot of those staff weren’t needed because I mean the whole thing was more or less concentrating on the D-Day so the staffing wasn’t quite needed in the same way. So then I decided well, I think I’d had enough of being in lodgings so I went home. So, you know because when you were in lodgings I mean, as I say it’s not quite the same and we, they were all, there were so many people that lived in small places and didn’t have the facilities that we perhaps had had at home. Lucky enough but don’t realise it at the time. My parents had the same sort of comfortable homes but I was perhaps pleased to get home. And then, and you sort of start to wonder what, what you’re going to do when you get there and it was just a taste of it and it was nice to go home and not think we’d have to go back again and I could enjoy being at home for a while.
PL: So, were you at home when peace was declared?
SR: Well, no because that was May, wasn’t it? What was that? Nineteen? I was still there in 1944 and it was officially declared, was it in ’45? So, I was already, yeah I was already home then I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because it was after D-Day that they started to give us the chance to sort of run down the staff. But that was quite enjoyable being at the [unclear] Quite enjoyed that apart from again lodgings. I was in a cottage that was. It was in the village. One of the villages, and you used to get picked up in the morning by a coach and used to go around all the people that had been recruited and pick us up in a coach and take us to the depot.
[recording paused]
PL: Recommencing recording. So Sheila we’re sort of getting to the end of the war now so what happened next? How did you —
SR: Well, I, I naturally had to find work and I went to a big department store in Grimsby, Lawson and Stockdale’s and I got a job in the accounts office. So I worked there for several years and then I, probably about three I think and then I met my husband. We used to go to the local dances and things and he was in the RAF and he was, he’d joined up during the war and stayed on then and signed on as a regular. So eventually we married and then I had three children and just was an RAF wife because you know, we didn’t work. It wasn’t a thing to work. He was away quite a lot because he was flying. So I was on my own several, several months, you know when he was away. And so my job was to stay at home and look after the children. Then we got posted in later years and I had the two to Cyprus and that was in ’59. And Andrew was born then in 1960. And then we came back and we were stationed at Abingdon where he went on to Beverleys where they flew trained paratroops. Parachuting. Then after that we went to Cologne and he was on a Hastings. And he was discharged in 1970, I think. Yeah. He did nearly thirty years in the RAF. So of course, I was at home looking after the children until as they were getting older I started to work on the RAF in Cologne and eventually finished up caring and went in to looking after older people and finished up with, in a sheltered housing.
PL: Wonderful.
SR: Of course, my husband died several years ago.
PL: So, did you get back to your sewing machine?
SR: No. Well, no. I, no not for work. No. No. No, I quite enjoyed that really because I like sewing now. Did a lot of knitting and sewing. Sewing was my forte really. I used to make my own dresses and things like that. My mother was a dressmaker. I’d been trained as a dressmaker and of course my father’s business was still going and he retired. I think they sold the business in about 1960.
PL: Right.
SR: My grandfather’s —
PL: And so during, during the war did you, did you say that that your, your parents sort of hosted airmen?
SR: Yes. Quite a lot. Well, my mother was very good. She was a wonderful cook and very hospitable and my, well some of them, well it was actually some of the Navy because, moreso because my uncle, my mum’s brother was a welfare officer down on the docks at Grimsby. And of course, some of the Navy because, you know there’s the Humber and they had a block across the end of the Humber to stop the Germans coming in from the North Sea and, but they used to open it when there was one of our destroyers say in trouble. To get them into Immingham for repairs. And my uncle used to ring up my mother and some of the crew you see they were actually still on service. They weren’t allowed to go home. They had to wait in Immingham ‘till the ship was repaired. Probably only a minor thing. Only took a couple of days. And then my uncle used to ring up mother and say, ‘Can you do with a few airmen. They’re fed up here just knocking around.’ Navy rather. And so they used to come up and one Christmas there were some of them there and we had them for Christmas and I remember them bringing up some of the rations and taking them out of their trench coat pockets and putting them on mother’s mantlepiece because you know they were allowed to bring some rations. Then they stayed over Christmas for two or three days and then the ship was ready to go out and they went out and unfortunately that particular destroyer was, was hit when it got out in to the North Sea by a German again and some of those crew that had been with us, I especially remember the cook who was an auburn haired lad, he was killed. Some of them came back into Grimsby hospital wounded. And that was only a day or two after they sailed out again. So, and then you know there was the airmen and I was, I was actually courting an airman at the time, at the end of the war and 1944 unfortunately went out on a bombing raid to Berlin and was, he was shot down too. He was lost. But he used to come of course to the house and he, when I was working, I was working, still working in Gainsborough then and he used to go because he was stationed at Waltham which was Grimsby. He used to spend a lot of time at my mother’s. Unfortunately, he was lost on that intensive Berlin raid they had in, in the beginning of 1944. They were sending them out to intense training on Berlin and that was really too much. He was very tired on the Sunday. He said to me, ‘Pray for fog tonight again.’ Because one night they’d had fog and they couldn’t go. But it was, it was too much for them really. I’ve got the details of him.
PL: What was his, what was his role?
SR: He was a gunner. Yeah. He was. Yeah. Yeah, the crew were [pause] he was at, when I met him I was at Gainsborough and he came, he was on the, they were crewing up and he came out to be crewed up from training and, and he said to me, ‘Guess where I’m being posted.’ And he said Waltham, which of course was quite close to my mother’s home so he knew that if I went home, you know he could see me more. So he was quite happy about that. He went and joined 100 Squadron and unfortunately was lost. Yes, he was three days before his twenty first birthday and I would have been twenty one in the May. So, so he’s buried in Berlin. In the War Cemetery there. There were so many of them lost. Dreadful really.
PL: So, Sheila I’m always also curious. At the very start of our conversation you said about your brother working on P&O ferries and being in, near Singapore.
SR: Yes.
PL: So, what happened with him?
SR: Well, he was on the way back. They, they’d left Yokohama and of course the Japs were already going through China weren’t they? So they got to Singapore which was their route home and they were asked to take on as many as they could from Singapore families. You know, because obviously the men out there had got a lot, had got their families there and they took a lot on board this ship. It was the P&O Ranchi and they got to India and put them ashore at India and then the ship was asked to go back to Singapore. They put ashore any, any people that they had on board and collected another lot from Singapore. And when they got back to India the crew were put ashore as well and they said they were taking the ship as a troop ship. And of course, by then the Japs were on the way, almost at Singapore. Treated them dreadfully of course, the ones that were left. And I remember him telling me about how they’d been told about them going in to the hospital at Singapore, the Japs and they just shot all, everybody in the hospital. Nurses, doctors and everybody. I mean, dreadful the way they treated our prisoners of war, didn’t they? So, of course, most of the ones there in Singapore were taken as prisoners. But my brother of course was put ashore in India and he joined the Army because he thought they’d be sent home because they asked, you know, who wanted to volunteer and he joined the Army but he wasn’t sent home. So he stayed on in India, was trained and he was sent to the Indian Academy because he was quite a clever lad at the time. He was only eighteen and anyway he became, he got his commission and he stayed in India all the war and he was, he was a major when he came out. A captain just been made up to major and he worked with the Ghurkhas and they were cavalry so he was on horseback most of the time. And they used to go down to the Burma front because they couldn’t take mechanised stuff in to the jungle because they used to take it down on donkeys and lead them down on horseback. So that was, he stayed in India and it was 1946 before he came home so my mother didn’t see him, well none of us did but, you know my mother especially didn’t see him for seven years. So, he did, you know I suppose in a way it might have saved his life because he, if he’d come back to this country he could have gone into the Normandy landings and whatever. But he was, worked, the Ghurkhas had a terrific name for the work they did in Burma and he was with them, training them for quite a while. He said it was, it was an honour to work with them. He said they were such fantastic soldiers. But yes, he finished up and so he was you know I suppose you know lots of things he enjoyed about India and seemed to be, did quite well anyway promotion wise and everything. So he was saved from anything more drastic as coming back to England. But when he came home because he was MT Regiment, which was mule training and of course he had to be posted when he got back here and they sent him up to Scotland to the MT unit and of course it was motor transport [laughs] and he said he knew nothing about transport. So, anyway eventually he applied for his discharge. He stayed in London and went to university in Kensington for a year and then eventually because he was very keen on playwriting and he worked for the BBC. So, he was a playwright with the BBC and scriptwriter, script editor. And that had been his early ambition really. To be a writer. So he had quite a good life really. But unfortunately, he wasn’t in the best of health and he died in his sixties but he certainly saw a little bit of [pause] but thinking that he was on the boats and then the liners were quite luxury items then, you know and they were only monied people that could afford those luxuries. But they put everybody ashore at India. I don’t know how they all got home but he thought he was going to be sent home but he didn’t. But anyway, as I say I think it was —
PL: That’s an amazing story.
SR: Perhaps, once he settled down. Yeah.
PL: Well, Sheila, look it’s been a fantastic interview. Thank you so much. I suppose my last question is this is, these are your memories. Is there anything else at all that you would like to be recorded?
SR: [pause] No. Not that I can think of because, you know to me at that time it was just a job we had to do and it was, wasn’t all, to us, you know to me being at that age as well it isn’t that significant at the time, is it? You know, it’s only afterwards you realise that perhaps there was some more importance attached to it. But there were so many factories that were taken over the, you know over the country wasn’t there? I know going back to Singers when they had a factory where they made sewing machines in Scotland and that was taken over and it was all they had to make Army uniforms. And when I came back from the end of the war which was again, as I say I think I was a bit confused about the time but it was 1945 the [pause] I came. I got off the train at Lincoln to change to get the Grimsby train and who should be coming up the platform was our manager of Singer’s Sewing Machine Company and he’s tall, and Mr Peach they called him. He was a very tall man and I could just see him. I think, ‘Oh, it’s Mr Peach.’ So, he spotted me as well and he always used to call me little Kiddle because I was always, you know small and very slim in those days. And he said, ‘Oh, little Kiddle,’ so he said, ‘What are you doing here?’ I said, ‘Oh, I’ve just come home now from war work.’ He said, ‘I’ve got just the job for you.’ He said, ‘I’m opening a new branch in Lincoln.’ So he said, ‘Manageress Lincoln.’ Just, just like that, on Lincoln station platform and so he said, ‘Just get in touch with me.’ So anyway, when I got home and having been away for so long and in lodgings I thought that means going into lodgings again in Lincoln and I thought no. So I never, I never applied for it and I finished up getting an office job in Grimsby so I was quite happy with that for a while. Yeah. And then of course you get married and things change again, don’t they? So, one has to accept what, you know what was thrown at us at the time. And it was my choice to get married and have a family.
PL: Well, I’d just like to end then by saying thank you very much indeed. This has been a fantastic interview. Thank you very much for letting us share your memories.
SR: Well, to me I just wonder whether it was important enough for you to even have to go to the trouble but —
PL: Definitely. Definitely important enough.
SR: You go back and you think about the things that happen, you know, I suppose. You do have memories about it.
PL: Thank you very much indeed.
SR: Alright.
Dublin Core
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ARankineS170228
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Interview with Sheila Rankine
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
Format
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01:01:41 audio recording
Creator
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Pam Locker
Date
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2017-02-28
Description
An account of the resource
Sheila Rankine wanted to become a member of the Women's Auxiliary Air Force but was conscripted to be a munitions factory worker. She worked at Rose's in Gainsborough making the hydro-static fuses for bombs including the Upkeep bouncing bomb. She met Guy Gibson sometime after Operation Chastise.
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1945
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Conforms To
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Pending OH summary
bombing
bouncing bomb
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
home front
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/277/7906/PIronsH1501.2.jpg
62e8999adc6227a8e1dcf9d08e401fbc
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/277/7906/AIronsH150723.1.mp3
113b2cff64ef934152b89828f1ea404f
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Title
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Irons, Harry
Harry Irons
H Irons
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Harry Irons (1924 - 2018). He was an apprentice tailor in London, but lied about his age and joined the RAF aged 16. He flew operations as a rear gunner with 158, 462 and 9 Squadrons.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-23
2016-07-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Irons, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM: Okay so, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moodie and the interviewee is Harry Irons. The interview’s taking place at a hotel near Kings Lynn and we’re here for the 9 Squadron Association hundred year dinner.
HI: Yeah that’s right, yeah.
AM: And it’s the 23rd of July 2015. So, off you go Harry. Tell us –
HI: Er, actually I won a scholarship to go to a grammar school, but my father insisted that I left school at fourteen so I could go to work and earn a wage. So, being in the east end the only jobs you could get was either tailoring or cabinet making. There was a whole area that’s – it was a big Jewish area and the, most of the people were either tailors or cabinet makers, and they were good, very good, brilliant craftsmen. So I took a job on as a trainee tailor and I was doing that for two years until I was sixteen, nearly sixteen, and we lived in an area of London called Stamford Hill and one evening we, me and a few other chaps were on the hill, and we see the huge blitz on London, and we actually see the whole of the City of London literally ablaze. Enormous, as far as your eye could see was buildings all, all ablaze, that was the City of London. Actually, they weren’t after the City of London, what they was after was the Docks, and they just, their bombing, what we used to call creeping, crept back from the Docks into the City of London and once it hit the City of London course everything went up in flames so, two or three friends said ‘we’ll, we’re gonna join up.’ I was sixteen at the time, so we went up the recruiting office in Kings Cross, London, and I told ‘em I was seventeen and a quarter, how they believed me I don’t know but they said ‘alright you’re in,’ and that was at the end of 1941, and I was called up in January 1941 [unclear]. The blaze was – the bombing was in 1940 and we joined, we joined up at the end of 1940, and 1941 they called me up and I went to a place near where it was called Bridgnorth then six weeks square bashing [?] there and they said ‘you’ll have to wait to sele’ – they asked me what I wanted to be in the air force, I said ‘I wanna fly,’ they said ‘alright, we’ll put you down for either a pilot, navigator or an air gunner and we’ll sort that out later on.’ Anyway, I went to Bridgnorth, done my six weeks training, and they sent me to a RAF station, Wisbech in Cambridge and I had to do menial jobs there, in the cook house, in the stores, waiting for, to go on a course. In the mean while they told me I was gonna become a wireless operator air gunner, and I’ve got to wait for a course to come up, a vacancy for the course to come up, so I stayed at Wisbech ‘til August ’41, and then they posted me to Blackpool on a wireless course and everybody in the RAF went to Blackpool to do their wireless course, and you had to stay in a, all the border houses were commandeered, and all the aircrew used to live in these border houses and the thing was when you’re at Blackpool you got up to twelve words a minute which we all did, and then from there you’re posted to another sta, er, air force station to continue your study ‘til you become up to eighteen words a minute –
AM: When you say eighteen words a minute, doing what?
HI: Morse code.
AM: Morse code right, okay.
HI: Yeah, dit dah dit dah dit dah dit. Anyway, we was all queuing up to wait for postings and the sergeant came out just like that he said ‘you lot, over that side. You lot, that side,’ and fortunately or unfortunately I was in that lot on that side and we become airgunners. Not wireless operators, airgunners. Just airgunners. And the reason for that, I didn’t know at the time, was the heavy bombers, the Lancasters, were going on production, and there was, they were short of airgunners, because they had to carry another air gunner so they said ‘you lot over there, you become airgunners,’ and I went back to Wisbech – I was a bit cheesed off about it all anyway, couldn’t do much about it, and I waited another couple of months and then they sent me on a gunnery course, a place called Manby [emphasis] in Lincoln, it’s a big air force gunnery school there, and we done six weeks training there as gunners, gunnery, and I got the huge total flying hours of nineteen hours, that’s all I got, and they said – and from there you’re supposed to do a four month, five month operational training course, that’s getting accustomed to actually doing bombing raids on enemy territory. But then whatever happened they said to me ‘you’re being posted straight on a squadron’ and I tell you what, I was a greener than this.
AM: [Laughs] we’re sat on a green settee, for the record.
HI: Yeah, yeah. It was as green, I was as green as anything then. ‘Cause I got nineteen hours and I didn’t know what to expect. Anyway, I was posted to Waddington [emphasis] to Number 9 Squadron. And when I arrived there, as it was luck [exhale of breath] was in my favour because a flight lieutenant named Stubbs came up to me and said ‘you’re gonna fly with me as a mid-upper’ and I said ‘fair enough.’ They’d already, he was already on his second tour, he’d already done thirteen trips on Wellingtons [emphasis].
AM: So you didn’t do the usual crewing up thing?
HI: Never done anything like that, no.
AM: You just –
HI: No, no they just sent about ten of us to 9 Squadron, ‘cause I was just converting from Wellingtons onto Lancasters, and consequently they was one gunner short because the Lancaster carried a mid-upper. So he said to me, anyhow I didn’t know what it was all about actually, he said to me ‘the rear gunner I’ve got at the moment is a big Australian,’ he was about six foot three [unclear] ‘and he’s too tall for the turret’ he said ‘what we’re gonna do is you’re gonna do your first trip in the mid-upper and after that you’ll go in the rear turret, and the Australian will go’ –‘cause in the mid-upper you can pull your legs down, straighten you know, you’ve got plenty of room, so what we done then, we done – as time’s gone on, this was 1942, round about June 1942 and we started getting to used, well the crew getting used to flying a Wellington twin engine bomber onto a four engine bomber. And that, you use what they call conversion, and that’s pretty difficult ‘cause you learn how to fly an entirely different aircraft, land it, you got to find out all the different things, the different systems and the turrets, anyway we done about six weeks training, well not, training it was, well converting from the one engine to the Lancaster, and then September ’42 we was in a crew, we had a big crew and we used to lay and loll about smoking, swearing everything else [laughs] anyway, they said ‘ops tonight.’ So, before you went on operations you done what they call a night flying test [emphasis], you took the aircraft up, you tested the bomb site, you tested the, the bomb bays open and closing, you tested the turrets and you give a, you went outta sea and give the guns a little squirt, see everything was alright, the compass [emphasis], check the compass and the, the under carriage we’d dropped up and down a couple of time to make sure it was alright, and we landed, and as we landed, the bomb aimer had already done thirteen trips on Wellingtons, and this is vivid, and as we’d come out of the steps of the Lancaster, the bomb aimer’s behind me, and coming along the road was tractor carrying a four thousand pound bomb, and fourteen hundred incendiaries, and the bomb aimer said to me ‘oh, we’re going to Happy Valley tonight.’ He said ‘by that bomb load, we’re definitely going to Happy Valley,’ and I thought ‘well that don’t sound too bad, Happy Valley,’ I thought ‘well Happy Valley, that can’t be too bad,’ I didn’t know that that was a nickname for the Ruhr Valley. The whole of the Ruhr Valley was called Happy Valley, and I didn’t realise at the time but the Happy Valley, the Ruhr Valley, as you went in you got a brilliant [emphasis] reception and a better, a, what you say, a bye-bye on the way out, and I tell you what, right I’ll go on, anyway we – it was always ritual, always [emphasis] for bomber crews to have bacon and eggs before they went on ops, always. Didn’t matter where you were, all the time I was in the air force, I done sixty bombing trips, and every time we went on a bombing trip we got bacon and eggs [emphasis] and if we come back we got bacon and eggs. And that was a luxury in those, in wartime, and then of course the joke was, always the joke ‘if you don’t come back, can I have your bacon and eggs?’ you know. Anyway, we went to the, we got – there was a bit of a rigmarole getting ready, you had to, you had to have your bacon and eggs and you go down to – most, most aircrew wrote a last letter, most of ‘em. I think the majority of aircrew wrote a last letter home to their wives, and they used to put them on the bed, and I’m afraid to say, I seen many, many, many letters being collected by the padre, many, that’s why I never wrote one myself. Anyway, we had our food, our bacon and eggs, we were all laughing and joking, you know we were young blokes, and we went to the crew, to the briefing room and we all sat down to see who would come in, and the map [emphasis] had a huge sheet over it, and the CO always, always done it, come in, whipped the sheet off and there was the target. So the bomb aimer said to me ‘I told you.’ It was Dusseldorf, he said ‘there you are,’ he said ‘I knew we were going there’ he said, ‘we’re going to Happy Valley,’ and I still didn’t twig on, ‘oh well, that don’t sound too bad,’ thinking of German girls tryna start [?] kisses you know what I mean. Anyway, we went down to the crew room and the atmosphere changed completely [emphasis]. We went in the crew room and the whole squadron was in the crew room ‘cause we had cabinets for all our flying gear and used to get dressed in there, and as I walked in, all the crews were there, it was dead silence, and everybody was looking at each other, there was no jokes, no laughing, nothing. And there was simply a – the atmosphere was incredible [emphasis] to what it was in the mess having our egg and bacon. Anyway, we got dressed and it was – airgunners dressing was long underpants, pure silk, and a vest that was silk and then your shirt and then your pullover, and then a, over the shirt you put a, I think it was, no, before you put the shirt on, as we put the shirt on we put an electrical heated suit with gloves and electrical heated gloves and body and feet, which was really, really important. And over that we put our uniform ‘cause you had to wear a uniform, if you never wore a uniform, I never realised but at night if you’ve was parachuted out in civilian clothes you was likely to get executed, which many, quite a few boys did get executed, especially by the civilians. And over that we used to put a huge [emphasis] fur jacket and fur trousers, fur lined boots, and there we were –
AM: Fur trousers?
HI: Fur trousers, yeah [murmur from AM]. You know, thick, made of the same material as your jacket. Irvin jacket, you had Irvin trousers, thick Irvin trousers and they used to tuck them inside your boot, zip your boots up and there, you could hardly move by then, but – and I’ll tell you what, on a warm day you was walking out you was absolutely sweating [emphasis, laughs]. Anyway, we went out to the aircraft and everybody smoked, everybody smoked [emphasis] except the skipper, the skipper didn’t smoke, he never drunk, never went out with women, he was absolutely – they said in the officers mess that they couldn’t understand the man, he wouldn’t, he never swore, he never smoked. Anyway, he – a good pilot mind you. Anyway, we got in the aircraft and I was in the mid-upper, first time. And in the mid-upper turret of the Lancaster, I’ve got a picture of it, you had a fantastic [emphasis] view –
AM: Hmm, all round.
HI: All three hundred and eighty degree. You could see everything [emphasis]and I got in the mid-upper, and I never got, I was still raw, we done, only done six weeks training, and I plugged in the electricity for the heater ‘cause if we, even in the mid-upper the temperature was about forty-five, fifty below zero. Worse still in the turret, rear turret. Anyway, we got ready and then the crew room, nobody was talking, it was like that, nobody spoke, and off we went. We took off at Waddington, and the thing was at Waddington they had no runways at that time. There were two squadrons of Lancasters there and no runway. All we had was grass, and in the winter it was very, very difficult with full bomb loads to takeoff. Before that, when we arrived at Waddington there was a squadron there, 44 Squadron, a Rhodesian squadron, and apparently they was the first squadron in the RAF to be equipped with the Lancaster, in March, April, round about April. And what they’d done, they’d decided to do a daylight raid, a low level daylight raid on a town called Augsburg in Germany. They sent six Lancasters flying at zero feet right across France, right into Germany –
AM: At zero [emphasis] feet?
HI: Zero feet, I mean zero – well when I say zero feet, about half of these buildings.
AM: Right okay.
HI: Can you imagine six Lancasters –
AM: No [laughs] –
HI: At that height over, just ducking over the trees, going as low as low as they could, else they would have invade [?] the radar.
AM: Right.
HI: Anyway, what happened – unfortunately there was squadron of Messerschmitts flying, I don’t know if it was practicing or flying, and of course they see these six Lancasters, and they immediately they shot down five [noise of shock from AM]. So outta the six they sent, one come back badly, badly damaged, and his name was Nevillson [name unclear] and he got the VC. The other five that was shot down got nothing [emphasis] so, he was fortunate, he was leading the squadron from the front and they gradually cut the other five down and he managed to avoid and managed to get back badly damaged. So, I’m just telling you that because it deal with another operation I went on. Anyway, we all got ready to takeoff, and everything was quiet in the – nobody spoke, when we was on ops, very rarely we spoke. The only time we spoke is when we was being attacked, when the navigator was giving instructions to the pilot, or the bomb aimer or me or the mid-upper or the rear gunner could see something downstairs they could identify and then inform the navigator what we see, and that helped him to crack the course. ‘Cause in those days, 1942, we had no radar. We had what they called Gee-box up to the coast and once we hit the coast the Germans blocked it, so it was from then onwards it was the navigator used to have to go from one spot to another spot, estimate the time of arrival at the other spot before he made a correction to the course, and of course things improved later on in ’43, and the gunners helped a lot because they could, especially the rear gunner could see, or the mid-upper could see different –
AM: Rivers, train lines and stuff like that.
HI: -- objects, yeah. And sometimes that wasn’t possible, there’d be ten-Thames [?] cloud. And then navigation become very, very difficult. And don’t forget we didn’t have no radar help whatsoever, but we managed and we flew over, as we took off we flew over the Dutch coast and the bomb aimer, he used to lay pronged in the nose [very unsure about what was said here], he said ‘skipper, enemy air coast [?] ahead, flak, flak.’ Always gunfire was called flak [emphasis]. So I looked down and I see all these beautiful, indescribable [?] lights, every colour, reds, blues, greens, there all tracers [?] from what they call night flak. They went up to about eight or nine thousand feet and then it dropped down again. And that’s when flak –
AM: And how high were you at that point?
HI: We was about twelve thousand feet. So when I looked down from mid-upper and I see that flak below us and I thought to myself ‘if that’s flak, we’ve got nothing at all to worry about.’ So we flew over Holland, don’t forget this was the early phase of bombing. Before that the bombing was nothing ‘cause they had obsolete bombing, bombing aircraft and no idea whether they reached the target. It was only in beginning, half way through 1942 they was giving the apparatus so they didn’t really find the target. Anyway, you crossed the Dutch coast and I’m in the mid-upper, spinning it round, and for about, I should imagine it was about hour, hour and a quarter, then the bomb aimer said ‘target ahead skipper.’ So then I thought to myself ‘well I’ll have a look to see what this target is all about,’ and I swung the turret around and I had really [emphasis], really the shock of my life. In front of us, with no exaggeration, was one solid massive explosion of shells. Absolute whole area was full up of high explosive shell fire, and we gotta fly through that. And searchlights were creeping about, and they had one searchlight which was radar operated and it was a different colour, it was blue, very light blue. And that was a searchlight, never missed. It went up bang, like that, straight onto an aircraft. It was radar controlled [coughs] excuse me [pause to drink] so when I see this huge massive explosion ‘cause I had a beautiful view, so I thought to myself ‘cor blimey, surely we haven’t gotta go through all this.’ And I could hear it, and the plane was bumping up and down from the force of the explosions and the skipper said to me ‘mid-upper, keep an eye above you, because bombers above you will drop their bombs on you’ which happened many times. So I said ‘okay skipper,’ and – we called the pilot skipper, always called him a skipper. Doesn’t matter what rank he was, always a skipper. Anyway, we, I started looking up and there right above us was a Lanc, bomb bay open, ‘cause you know the bomb bays were enormous, I says ‘there’s a bomber above us skipper with his bomb bay open, dive port.’ We dived port, good job we did because he was ready to drop his load, so we slammed our bomb bay shut, because we was on a run as well and, and the bomb aimer said ‘we’ll have to make a correction on our way into the target.’ You must realise that all around us these huge [emphasis] explosions of shells, I’m telling you not few, hundreds [emphasis] of ‘em exploding into the sky. Anyway, as we were flying in, the skipper said ‘skipper, I’ve lost the target point,’ he said ‘we’ll have to round again.’ And I just told you, the skipper never swore. I’ll tell you what [laughs] he said to the bomb aimer ‘you are a silly chap’ [laughs]. There was a few more words. So we slammed the bomb bay shut, went right through that target, went all through that explosions and the plane was rocking about, could hear shrapnel hitting the bloody machine, in our machine, and we went round and we do a dogleg. We approached the target like that, and then we go like that, like that, in again. But you had to be very, very careful ‘cause when you left the target and you was gonna come in again, you was coming across the last of the bombers that was going in. And it was very, very, very dangerous. Anyway, when we went round, and by that time the German radar was on us and it was giving us a real, real shellacking [?] I’ll tell you. Anyway, we made our run round, opened the bomb bay, dropped our bombs, slammed the door, slammed the door shut and what we usually do then, you couldn’t – slammed the doors shut but you couldn’t get away, you had to stay straight and level for another forty seconds because the camera was turning around and at the same time you was dropping what they called a photo-flash [?]. That was in the fuselage. And as the photo-flash dropped down, the cameras turning over, and they took a picture, an actual picture, of you bombing the target, which was very, very important because if you didn’t bring back a picture the intelligence officers said to you ‘well it’s your word against mine that you went there,’ even if the aircraft was full of bloody holes, they still say ‘we don’t believe you,’ well, ‘not saying we don’t believe you but you’ve got no proof that you went to the target so it don’t count, so you can go all that way there and back for nothing,’ which happened several times. Anyway, we slammed the bomb bay down, we made a dived [emphasis] to the port, turned round and come back and that’s when your trouble started, the fighters. But that time they wasn’t so dangerous as what they were to be. They, we used to see the fighters flying about and straight away, I don’t know if it was instinct or not, when I see a fighter, I wouldn’t fire on him unless he was interfering with us, I let him go, because generally you’d find on a fighter he had huge [emphasis] canons and you had no chance, I tell you, you had no chance whatsoever.
AM: So you’re just causing trouble for yourself really –
HI: Yeah because they could stand off from two, three hundred yards and you couldn’t do nothing about it, ‘cause your 303 went about a hundred yards and started dropping what they called a gravity drop. They had canons and he could rake you [?] which happened a couple of times. Anyway, we slammed the bomb bay shut, and we started coming back, and the bomb aimer said to the skipper and the navigator, ‘skipper, we can’t breathe. We’ve got no oxygen.’ And what had happened, the shrapnel had cut through the oxygen lines, so the skipper said ‘alright, so what we have to do is dive down below ten thousand feet,’ which we did do, and coming home in the mid-upper I thought to myself, ‘if this is bloody Happy Valley, I hope we don’t go anywhere that’s miserable’[laughs]. And I’ll tell you what, it’s a terrible, terrible place. Anyway we got down to – we crossed the Dutch coast at about four thousand feet, and these beautiful lights we see were flashing past us like that, all over, and lucky enough we managed to get through a few bangs and we were damaged but not that bad. And we dropped down about two thousand feet and we headed home, and I thought to myself ‘dear oh dear, I got thirty of these, thirty trips to do like that before we get a rest.’ And we landed, and I was exhausted. Even at that age, at seventeen, I was exhausted. And we went into the briefing room and I stood there and we was asked a load of questions, and they said to me, it was only my first trip, they said to me ‘what do you think?’ And I said ‘I see four or five bombers exploding in the sky,’ I said ‘apart from that everything was alright.’ He said ‘you never seen no bombers’ – this was the officer, the briefing officer telling me that, he wasn’t even a flyer. He’s saying ‘you didn’t see no bombers blowing up, that was scarecrows.’ What the Germans were firing up shells to mimic a bomber exploding, and they kept this up right the way through the war.
AM: So it was true, you hadn’t, you’d seen the scarecrows, not a bomber blowing up.
HI: No, no they were actually aircraft blowing up in the sky. They did admit after the war there was no such thing as a scarecrow.
AM: Ah right.
HI: They admitted it, the Air Ministry, but they kept it a –
AM: So why did they say that?
HI: Well they – one of the reasons was they didn’t want us to duck and dive about. They wanted us to fly straight and level, ‘cause it was dangerous anyway, ducking and diving. But every time we went back we say we seen three or four, sometimes more than that, explosions, literally exploding in the sky. They said ‘no, that’s German scarecrows to demoralise you.’ Anyway, we got back and in the briefing room he said, he told me about the scarecrows so I thought ‘oh well, that’s it.’ Anyway, I didn’t know how exhausted I was, it was only a four and three-quarter hour trip. I went to bed and I felt absolutely exhausted. And I think the mental strain of the first trip. Anyway, we went back to the mess, we went to bed, and I think next morning we had a day off. The following day I think we went to Bremen, and the reason why went to Bremen, or Bremen [different pronunciation, shorter vowel sound] as they called it, they was building the submarines, the U-Boats there.
AM: Right.
HI: And we went across the Baltic that time. We didn’t see no flak until we hit Bremen, and the flak was unbelievable. It was worse than Dusseldorf.
AM: Were you in the rear gunner at this –
HI: I was in the rear turret, yeah.
AM: So you’d moved to the rear turret by this time?
HI: Yeah. And different position and the different visibility of the – when you’re in the rear turret you can see that way, see the bits you couldn’t see really above you or at the side of you –
AM: Or behind you.
HI: And at that time, the Germans were only attacking from dead astern, port over or starboard over . That was the method of attacking at that time [emphasis], things were getting much, much worse, but they had a little bit of a chance because if they come in close you had four guns here and you could – you had a bit of a chance, not a lot, but you had a bit of a chance. Anyway, I think it was after that trip, couple of trips, I complained to the engineering officer that the rear turret, that the oil for the Merlin engines was coating the Perspex in the rear turret, which obviously, the exhaust was coming out. So we was sitting in the crew room, the officer come in, he said ‘we solved the problem of the oil on the turrets,’ and I thought ‘well that’s good’ ‘cause after about two hours this oil used to go onto the Perspex, it was starting to be difficult to see outta it, and when we went out there [chuckles] what they had done, they had taken the whole Perspex out [chuckles]. So there we were in a rear turret with no bloody Perspex, and I tell you what, it was cold [emphasis].
AM: How did that – what so nothing between you –
HI: No, just – they took the whole of the front of the Perspex out. We used to look through, they took out because the oil.
AM: So it was just you [emphasis] and sky –
HI: Yeah, yeah.
AM: Nothing between you?
HI: No, no. Well the Perspex only stopped the slipstream but they took the Perspex out. Yeah, on all the Lancs, but they solved the problem [laughs]. Anyway, we –
AM: But the oil would just hit you in the face instead.
HI: Yeah, but it was, it wasn’t so bad because you could just wipe it with your glove with it [AM laughs]. But, we got rid of the – it wasn’t such a huge amount but it was enough oil to stop, to obscure your sight a bit, you know. And you had to be really, really on your toes all that time you was in that turret. It was bitterly cold in there, forty-five, fifty below zero, was nothing.
AM: Did you ever have an occasion when your suit didn’t work, or?
HI: Yes sometimes it, it didn’t work a couple of times. I burnt me foot ‘cause it was a new, new idea you know, they’d, after the war they made electric blankets [AM laughs] that was only through the electrical heated suits and it’s the short shirts – it’s like everything in the war, everything was crash, bang, wallop, get ready , but every gunner was issued with an electrical heated suit, and they were good when they worked. So I’d done my first op, and I thought I was proud of myself, but I had other twenty-nine to do. I mean, twenty-nine successful [emphasis] ones, so you can, you can go all the way there, and you get, you get engine trouble and you gotta come back, that don’t count. Even in respect of what you’ve gone through, it didn’t count.
AM: You had to drop your bombs on the target for it to count.
HI: Yeah, the gunner target, yeah. You see, what actually happened, I think at the beginning of the war, the few of them used to go to North Sea, drop their bombs and come back and say yeah they’ve, they’ve, and they – ‘cause they realised Germany wasn’t being bombed really, it was a, the most that we got to was five miles from the towns [?] so what they decide to put the camera in, and the photo-flash. And that stopped it all, ‘cause you had to bring back a picture. The first thing they asked for when you walked in, ‘have you got your picture?’ It was the first thing – [unclear] you’d land on the aircraft, there was a [unclear] photography unit come out and take the film out, and there’d be developed or they used to take it back to the crew, the, where we was being briefed, and they could see if we bombed the target or not. Anyway, so we went to Bremen, we gained a good shellacking [?] and we done a bit of damage there, and we come back, and I was blowing my chest out, I’d done two trips [laughs]. The following, following day, er day after that, we went to Wilhelmshaven, and that was worse. That’s where I was really in full, full strength of building submarines there, and we did – it was devastating the bombing we done there, it was very successful, they held up the submarine building for a long while, and then I’d done, I’d done three trips, and I was, you know, thinking to myself, well –
AM: Were you scared?
HI: Frightened outta my bloody life. The first one, I told you, that first one, Dusseldorf, I could not believe, I could not [emphasis] but everyone was the same –
AM: Did you talk about it?
HI: No, no we never talked about it, no. I’ll tell you one thing, we used to get crews coming straight from OTU into the squadron, ‘cause their losses were horrendous you know, we was losing so many aircraft, and they’d say ‘what’s the ops like?’ and we’d always used to say ‘you find out, you find out yourself.’ We never said ‘oh it’s terrible over there’ or nothing, never. And I don’t know if that helped them or not, but a lot of the crews only done one trip before they got shot down, hell of a lot of ‘em. Just one – in fact, what they used to do when a crew come from OTU, they used to let the pilot fly with an experienced crew on his first trip, so he’d understand what an actual raid was. Very often he never come back off his first trip, it happened time and time again. The crew used to be walking about the station with no, waiting for a new pilot. Yeah, happened many times. Anyway, after Wilhelmshaven we went back to Happy Valley again, and this time, I tell you what, I thought Dusseldorf was bad, we went to Essen [emphasis] and Essen was something out of this [noise of disbelief] something outta, I tell you what, it was absolutely ferocious. The flak was enormous, everywhere you look there was shells bursting, aircraft blowing up in the sky, aircraft going down in flames, and I had something with me because we just went through – we always got hit, always got hit with flak, big holes in the aircraft, but when we got back they used to bang ‘em and tap ‘em back and –
AM: Bodge [?] ‘em up.
HI: Yeah, that’s it [chuckles]. Anyway, we went to Essen, then we went to Munich, and I’ll tell you how my luck is, what happened, losses at Waddington on 9 Squadron, even those few weeks I was there, was horrendous. So they sent two scientists down from Cambridge with a new device to put into the rear turret so that when a fighter was five or six hundred yards away, which we couldn’t see, they could see us on their radar, this instrument was radar. It could pick up the fighter and warn us with a red light that there was a fighter in the close vicinity. Unfortunately the first time the squadron was equipped with them, we lost two aircraft and the Germans must have sorted the, must have examined the wreckage and seen this device in the rear turret and copied [unclear] a wavelength or whatever it was, anyway we went to Munich and that was a long trip, that was about eight and a half hours and we went over, and how the navigator found Munich I’ll never know ‘cause we went over in ten-tenths cloud, that means to say underneath you was solid cloud, but he found Munich as – before we reached Munich the cloud broke and there was Munich and we did, we did give it real good hiding.
AM: Is this day time or night?
HI: It’s night time –
AM: It’s night time isn’t it?
HI: Never, never done daylight.
AM: But you could still see it, so how come you could see it at night time?
HI: We could see it yeah because the – a couple of people had been bombing it and the searchlights –
AM: Right.
HI: And you could see the town anyway. You – but that’s why bombing – they, they said ‘well why did you bomb areas’ – the only way you can do night bombing was to, at that time was area bombing and in that area you probably got a load of factories you could destroy, but you couldn’t pick out – it was very, very difficult to pick out an individual target so you had to bomb an area, they used to pick an area out. This was before pathfinding [murmured agreement from AM] so we used to drop flares ourselves, we dropped a few flares as we was going in, or people before us would drop a few flares, and you’d sit and the bomb aimer would see the target.
AM: Who dropped the flares, the bomb aimer?
HI: The bomb aimer, yeah. Someone on the squadron [very unclear what was said here] would drop a few flares and then down they went, but that was the beginning, when we really first started bombing Germany, before that it was a joke. Anyway, we bombed Munich and we made a good frame [?] on it actually, and coming back the skipper said ‘I think we’ll fly through cloud’ because the fighter activity, we could see the fighter flares, and so he said ‘if we go through cloud we won’t meet any fighters,’ which we did do, so we was flying for about an hour in the cloud and all of a sudden the cloud broke clear, and believe it or not, right by my rear turret, as I looked outta my rear turret was a Ju-88. I tell you what he was no more than thirty yards [emphasis] behind us. And he opened fire with his cannons and the tracer went just above the aircraft, just missed us. The reason was that he was so close and we was up and down like that and I suppose as we went down he fired and he missed us. Anyway, we opened fire, me in the rear turret and the mid-upper ‘cause he was right close to us, and down he went, he spun over and down he went.
AM: So you got him?
HI: Yeah we got him, yeah.
AM: Which one of you got him, do you know?
HI: We don’t know, I think –
AM: Both of you?
HI: We both opened fire on him, and he was more surprised than what we were, he never expected it, and down he went. Lucky enough because usually once the night fighter got on your tail, it was very, very difficult. Anyway we, when we got back we told the intelligence officer that this night fighter had followed us through ten-tenths cloud for an hour ‘till the cloud broke. So they put two and two together and realised the apparatus they’d put in the turret was sending out a ray for the Germans to pick up and that’s what he was following us on. So what – immediately they took the radar thing out of the turret and I don’t know if it made any difference or not. After that we were talking and laughing about it and they said ‘you gonna do some low level formation flying in daylight,’ so we thought ‘well surely we’re not gonna have another daylight raid after the huge loss to 44 Squadron,’ and I mean we never even considered [emphasis] that they would do anymore daylight raids. So anyway, we done this practice formation, well it’s not formation flying – at that time there was over ninety Lancs in 5 Group, and there was ninety of us flying over Lincoln, around this area, right on the ground, well I don’t mean on the ground, as high as these buildings. Everyone was moaning down below because can you imagine ninety Lancasters flying about thirty or forty feet and they said ‘you’re gonna have to cut the squadron of Spitfires doing damning runs [?] on you.’ So I’m sitting in my turret, and the Spitfires come straight for me, and he was so close our slipstream hit his, hit his wings, and he turned like that, and being so low, he couldn’t, he couldn’t get outta the dive and he went straight in the deck. And I was ‘that don’t sound too bad, that’s gonna happen.’ Anyway –
AM: What happened to him? Crashed? Killed?
HI: Crashed, just crashed yeah. And when I looked along the road there was about three or four Spits on the deck, burning [emphasis] doing the same thing, come straight in –
AM: So they were killed?
HI: And the slipstream, they had no chance of correcting, correcting, ‘cause it’s too low on the ground. Anyway, on the Saturday they said ‘there’s gonna – report to your flights ‘cause there’s gonna be a daylight raid.’ So we went out to do the what they call a night flighting test, and when we landed there was the trailer, but all it had on it was six [emphasis] one thousand pounders. So we knew it was gonna be a long, long journey. We were – a bomb load like that was only a third of the weight of what we’d usually take to the Ruhr, so we were, obviously it was gonna be a long journey. We went to the briefing –
AM: Can I just ask, so why obviously, ‘cause that would conserve the fuel because you had a lighter load?
HI: Yeah we had to take more fuel and less bombs, so –
AM: Yep, okay.
HI: So actually we knew the distance when we see a big petrol load [emphasis] going in we knew we were on for a – we see a small bomb load we knew, the petrol, it was being loaded up for all the tanks and we knew we was on for a long trip. Anyway, we went and had our – even at that time, we’d already had breakfast, but they sent us out and said ‘we’re gonna have bleeding bacon and eggs’ [laughs]. That was always done, it don’t matter what time of the day it was bacon –
AM: Well what would happen if you didn’t like bacon?
HI: Well –
AM: What did they get, sausage?
HI: There were a few Jewish people who, they had to eat the bleeding bacon [laughs].
AM: Did they, they ate it?
HI: Yeah, well, by then I’d done five or six trips, and I thought ‘so I better eat the food, you never know what’s gonna happen.’ Anyway, we went to the briefing at about ten o’clock, Saturday morning, it was, in October, round about, I forget the date, about the tenth of October, and we went to the briefing, and the officer come in, pulled the blind down, and there it was. Place called Le Creusot. It was right on the other side of France, nearly on the Swiss border. It was a nearly ten and a half hour trip and we were looking at each other, and they said ‘you’re to fly as low as possible, even lower than that if you can,’ and they said ‘there’ll be two hundred Spitfires,’ or hundred, two or three hundred Spitfires ‘escorting you to the coast,’ but the trouble was the Spitfires went to the wrong bleeding place, we never see ‘em. So we crossed the French coast at about the height of these buildings, and then you imagine what a sight that must have been , ninety-two Lancasters flying –
AM: What a noise [emphasis] never mind a sight.
HI: Yeah, there was loads and loads of ‘em. And all we got was the French girls waving at us and I thought ‘that’s handy,’ and everybody was coming out and waving, it was a beautiful day, and we went right across France. I mean right across France, looking, wondering where the fighters was ‘cause there was thousands of by that time, ’42, there was hundreds and hundreds of fighters in France –
AM: German fighters?
HI: Yeah, German fighters in France. Anyway, we went right across France, there was no incidents, everybody was waving, and we approached the target [coughs] excuse me, and six of us had to break off and bomb the power station that was supplying the electricity to this huge armament factory in Le Creusot. It was a huge armament factory, nearly as big as what the Germans had, and they was producing armaments for the German army. So we broke off, telling you now there was six of us who broke off, Guy Gibson was with us, he was on our port side, and he was on 106 Squadron, Guy Gibson was on, and his second in command was flying the other Lanc, and on our starboard side was two Lancasters from 50 Squadron on the other side, we was in the centre and there was six of us. We broke off and went straight to this power station. Oh, and as we approached the power station, one of the Lancasters on our starboard side just went straight in the deck and exploded. We were – he had six one thousand pound bombs on it, and it literally went straight in the deck and exploded. What happened we don’t know.
AM: Don’t know.
HI: Anyway, the five of us carried on, Gibson was on our portside with his second in command and we was in the centre, and the last one of 50 Squadron was, was on our starboard side. Anyway, we bombed the power station and we absolutely flattened [emphasis] it. We was carrying six one thousand pounders, and we went and we climbed up a little bit and dropped ‘em, and we could see that the whole place was flattened. In fact, the factory was – actually I went back there last year, to the factory and it’s bombed, still bleeding bombed [unclear, laughs]. Anyway –
AM: Did you get your photo?
HI: Pardon?
AM: Did you get – not last year, I mean in 1942.
HI: No we didn’t, I don’t think we took a photo because it was daylight and everything –
AM: So they knew –
HI: Everyone was bombing the same target. Anyway, the ninety Lancs turned round, it was ninety-two ‘cause when we turned around there was only ninety-one, one had blown up in the sky, and we came back over the – by the time we’d got to the French coast it was getting dark –
AM: Still flying really low level?
HI: Yeah, and we started climbing when we got to the French coast, and as we passed the French coast it was getting dark, and we was flying for about another thirty or forty minutes, and all of a sudden the sky was smothered in bloody high explosive shells again. So the pilot said ‘where the bloody hell are we,’ so the skipper said ‘ I think we’ve, I’ve miscalculated and we’re flying over Jersey,’ and we were over Jersey with these huge explosions coming up, anyway the pilot called him a nice fella again, he said ‘stupid chap you are’ like that, and we branched out and come back, but that was a catch that, Jersey was very, very heavily armed, and anybody strayed off the course they wait for you. Shot down quite a few bombers over there. Anyway, we got back and went to the briefing, we were told exactly what had happened, and they confirmed that we done a good job there –
AM: Good.
HI: And I thought ‘there won’t be no more daylight raids after that.’ And we went to, in a week, we had a couple of days off and we went to Genoa [emphasis], and we couldn’t make out why we was going all the way to Italy, it was eleven hour trip to bomb Genoa, but we soon found out because on the Thursday [emphasis] they said, a briefing for Saturday, a daylight raid. So we said ‘surely we’re not having another daylight raid, we was lucky we got away with La Crusoe.’ Anyway, believe it or not, the target was Milan, and we was gonna bomb it, in daylight, taking it from a very, very low level ‘till we got to the Alps, we couldn’t go low level so we had to wander through the Alps, and there was ninety- two Lancasters, darting and diving through the Alps.
AM: Had the Spitfires turned up this time?
HI: No we never see no bloody Spitfires at all this time, and same again, we went right across France, no opposition whatsoever. We went through the Alps, and this is what I call a terror raid. We went across Lake Como about hundred feet then, we climbed to three hundred feet, and there was Milan waiting for us. No air raid shelter, no flak, they never expected British bombers to come all the way from England in daylight, never expected.
AM: Could you, were you low enough to actually see people in the –
HI: Pardon?
AM: Were you low enough to actually see people?
HI: It was, we was that low, we dropped down to about a hundred feet, hundred and fifty feet over Milan, we could see everybody in the streets, in the restaurants, we could see ‘em all. And we see ‘em started running about, there was no alarm given, and the city was completely open, and imagine ninety-two Lancs with six one thousand pounders on. We caused absolute havoc there, and a few of the boys I know were machine gunning, which I thought was wrong. Anyway, we climbed up again, came back, slid our way through the Alps, dropped down again to nought [?] feet and came right across France again.
AM: You missed Jersey that time.
HI: Yeah, we missed Jersey that time. We had our pullovers on [laughs].
AM: What did you feel about that then? The fact that you could actually see people?
HI: Oh we could see ‘em yeah, yeah because we –
AM: What did you, did you talk about it afterwards?
HI: No, we never talked about air raids, never mentioned it. Once you got back it was finished. No body, and same as the logbook, all we used to put in the logbook was the raid, the time, we never, what we should have done was put a little, exactly what happened, but when you put your books into the commanding officer to be signed once a month, [unclear] shooting, just put down what the raid was and that was it, that was what we used to do. But we should have done, we should have put the whole story of what exactly went on. And after that raid believe it or not the Ities [?] didn’t want to know anything more about the war, and there was huge – we had a big publicity the next day in the Daily Express, had a huge photo of Number 9 Squadron, coming back off the raid, and they reproduced it in Italy with, English Gangsters they called us, and there we are. I think we lost four aircraft that night, I don’t know where we lost them, might have been technical trouble, I don’t know, but, to go all that way in daylight and not see a German fighter was incredible. And after that we felt ourselves very, very, very lucky. It was about my ninth trip then, I was one of the top, experienced men then –
AM: And you’d shot somebody down by then.
HI: Yeah, yeah. But we’d, we were the top men in the squadron, we’d done about nine or ten trips.
AM: And you were seventeen.
HI: Yeah, yeah. And from then things got worse. Worse and worse and worse. The –
AM: In what way worse, Harry?
HI: The fighters got much more efficient, and their radar got much more efficient. Their guns got more efficient. Search lights got better, and more, and they had guns that fired with radar and they never missed. I remember later on in the year on my second tour we was bombing a place in the Ruhr Valley, and we was going in, our squadron, and as we was going in, there was people in front of us bombing, and they’d already turned starboard and coming out again, and for some reason, I don’t know, a Halifax [emphasis] I don’t know if it was in our squadron or the squadron beforehand, instead of going hitting the target, I don’t know what happened, he turned and joined the aircraft that was coming out of the, from the bombing run, which was in daylight, and there was a big gap between us going in and those coming out, and then he flew across, and as he flew across the flak went bang, bang, and the third shell hit him right underneath, and just exploded, yeah. Why he done that I don’t know, ‘cause we was all in the shadow of the silver paper we was dropping, and that helps with the – this one had got outta range with it going across and they shot him down straight away, yeah. And as it went on, we used to get leave every six weeks, and Lord [pause] what his name, Rank, Rank, wasn’t Rank, it was the er, the bloke that owned Morris, BMC, owned BMC, and he said, and he gave every aircrew bloke that was on ops, when he went on leave he doubled their pay, for a weeks leave yeah, he done that right through the war. Must have cost him a fortune.
AM: Every airman?
HI: Yeah, well it was in Bomber Command.
AM: In Bomber Command.
HI: Who was flying. He used to give ‘em – he used to, he used to double our pay, yeah.
AM: You know what, just going back to operations, you know the gaps between them, as in a day, a couple of days?
HI: All depending upon the weather. It was entirely dependent upon the weather. If the weather was, it was a bright – I’ll tell you one we went one, we went on one and I still think about it, it was a full light night, getting onto Christmas I think it was, and they said ‘there’ll be no ops tonight because there’s bright moonlight and no cloud,’ and it was suicide to go over there. Anyway, they said they’d picked out sixteen Lancasters, they’d picked out about eight from our squadron, four from 44 and I think four from another squadron, they said ‘we want you to do a low level night time raid on small towns just outside the Ruhr Valley.’ And the excuse they gave us was that the civilian population wasn’t getting any rest from the bombing raids on the Ruhr Valley and they was letting them come to these small towns to get rest. That’s why they wanted to go over there and liven ‘em up. So, it really was a terror raid and we carried sixteen one thousand pounders with a delayed charged of about half an hour, and we found this small town, we was after, just outside the Ruhr Valley, and we went right down, it was brilliant [emphasis] moonlight we were in, we went right down this village or small town and dropped the sixteen one thousand pounders right down the centre of the town. And I often wonder what happened about that, but I don’t, there was no need really to do that bombing really, but there you go, that was war.
AM: Well you called it a terror raid.
HI: Pardon?
AM: You called it a terror raid?
HI: Yeah, yeah, and that was Christmas, went home and had some leave, came back and we started again. And by that time, all the crews that I knew when I joined the squadron in June had all gone, they’d all gone. All been shot down.
AM: Every single one.
HI: Yeah, and they was all new recruits except us, and we was all NCOs.
AM: What do you think kept your plane – why your crew when all the rest of them got shot down? What can you say?
HI: I don’t know, I don’t know. I’ll tell you, shall I tell you?
AM: Go on.
HI: Well, what they used to do, before you went on a raid they used to give us a bag of sweets –
AM: Go on, keep going. I know the story, but keep going.
HI: Oh you know the story do you?
AM: You told me earlier on, but tell me again.
HI: And, we couldn’t undo the sweets with the cellophane, so we used to throw them out of the rear turret, and the Germans knew that and that’s why they never shot us down. ‘Cause they wanted the sweets [laughs]. That’s only a joke [both laugh]. I don’t know, I got no idea. Well, what actually happened, the crew I was with, I said they’d already done fourteen trips on Wellingtons when I joined them, they finished, and they finished, we finished our tour, was up to about sixteen, fifteen or sixteen trips, and I was left with no crew, and I was sitting in the mess, and a bloke walked in, I knew him as Sergeant Doolan, pilot, and he said ‘my rear gunner Robbie has just been killed, would you take his place?’ That was, that was luck really, so I said ‘alright, I’ll become your new rear gunner’ which I did do, and we was an NCO crew, and we was the only crew to, that I know of, all the time I was there, that finished the tour. And how many crews we lost, Lord knows.
AM: But you were the common denominator.
HI: Yeah, yeah –
AM: From the first sixteen and then fourteen and then the –
HI: Yeah, and then, we was all NCOs and we finished the tour, yeah. And I think the pilot got the DFM, and none of us got even a mention of a medal. And there was – but the thing was, what was happening by then was the Germans had come up with a new technique called Schräge Musik, that was what they’d come up with, they’d put two cannons at eighty degree, put the two cannons behind the cockpit at eight degrees so there was the aircraft, and these two guns stuck up like that –
AM: Okay.
HI: And all they had to do, they had radar, and all they had to do was coast [?] yourself underneath a bomber and just fly underneath him. You didn’t have to have no sight, no tracer, it just went underneath the aircraft, up to the petrol tanks, quick squirt, and we used to see ‘em blowing up but we couldn’t make out, we used to come back and tell ‘em that we seen aircraft blowing up in the sky, there was no flak and no fighters we could see, and the, and they literally shot down thousands [emphasis] of bombers, and not once did they ever mention what was going on at the briefing, not once. Never.
AM: Would there have been any way to avoid them if you’d have known about them?
HI: Well, if we knew and known about it, which they knew what we’d be doing, we’d start jiggling up and down, so they wouldn’t get a clean shot at us, but then when you think about it, you get five or six hundred bombers doing that in pitch darkness, you’re gonna get, gonna get a lot of problems. And that was it, but they were shooting them down, ah, unbelievable. Yeah, you had to be lucky really, because if you bowed out you had to be lucky, because if the civilians, you come out near a target and the civilians get hold of you they’d rip you to pieces. Yeah, and the Gestapo shot a few as well. If you was lucky the Luftwaffe got hold of you, was alright, but, or the army got you –
AM: But you never got shot down?
HI: No, I never got shot down, no.
AM: What happened at the end of your first tour, then?
HI: What happened then, finished my tour, didn’t get no bloody medal, don’t know why not –
AM: Even though you shot one down, ‘cause people got medals for that didn’t they?
HI: Yeah I know. Anyway, I went as an instructor, and then I realised how risky this business was, because all [emphasis] that was coming from OTUs were crews being trained in Canada. And when you think they were being trained on single engine aircraft in beautiful weather, all they had to do was follow the railway line from one point to another, everything was easy. Of course when they come to London, especially, and England, especially where, with the weather, and was OTU we had to train ‘em for three or four months before they went on operations, and hell of a lot of ‘em got killed on accidents, but they were very raw, they should have had much, much more training, but then again –
AM: And how old were you at this point? Eighteen?
HI: Yeah, eighteen, about eighteen and a half yeah. And I was an instructor, and apparently, I carried on for a little while and the, we had a bit of a go – oh they sent me up to a place up in Scotland to a gunnery school to do some – the instructors up there wanted to get on ops, don’t know why, but they said ‘you go up there and relieve them,’ about ten of us went up there, and we were in the mess one night, and we all got drunk and caused a bit of a havoc and we went in front of the CO next day, he said ‘I’ve had enough of you blokes, I’m posting you.’ So I thought ‘oh go on, I’ll be posted somewhere out in the Middle East’ or somewhere like that, and anyway I got posted to South End, about fifteen miles from where I lived, and I was thinking ‘be at home every night’ and while I was there, what we was doing there was flying drogues [?], the flak along the south coast, we had a big drogue pulled behind, and I tell you what, when I see that I knew we had no chance at all. They had these, we had to use a toeless drogue, and they used to fight, not at the drogue, a couple of degrees past the drogue, because they kept hitting the drogues and it was becoming expensive. So, but the flak [emphasis] to follow you, right, same height, would follow the drogue all the way along. Anyway, after a while they said ‘you’re posted,’ and this I knew was why the government knew what was going on in Germany with the fighters. They said ‘you’ve been posted to the 77 Squadron, Halifaxes.’ So I thought ‘alright,’ so and when I got up there –
AM: Where was that? Where was it?
HI: Er, Full Sutton I think, yeah Full Sutton. And when I got up there, the CO said he wanted to see me when I got up there, so I thought ‘that’s handy, the bloody warrant officer and the CO wants to see me, I must be important’ and he took me out to the, where the arment [?] officer, out to a Halifax, and what they had done they’d cut a big hole in the bottom of the Halifax and placed a point manual point five over the hole –
AM: Point five –
HI: Yeah, point five, point five machine gun.
AM: Okay.
HI: A much bigger shell than the 303. And they said ‘have you seen any German fighters coming, coming at you, you’ll be able to handle ‘em.’ So they knew what was going on. Anyway, we took off for Duisburg and I was sitting there – I was bleeding freezing, can you imagine there’s a big hole like that, about twenty thousand feet and –
AM: Hang on where’s this, is this in the middle of the plane?
HI: In the middle of the plane.
AM: Right, okay.
HI: A big hole.
AM: Where the bomb doors would have been?
HI: Er, it was different in the Halifax.
AM: Okay.
HI: It was different from the Lancaster. Most the bombs – up, further up and underneath the wings as well.
AM: Right.
HI: Anyway, they dug this hole, cut this hole in the Halifax and they had a point five there, and I sat there, and can you imagine it was about forty-five below, and it seemed the whole world was coming through that bloody hole. The pilot was moaning, the bomb aimer was moaning, and the – anyway, we’d done the bombing raid, come back and they complained bitterly about it, and that was the last that – and they said to me ‘we’re posting you to Driffield, to an Australian squadron’ and that’s where I went then, as a rear gunner at 462 Australian Squadron. I stayed there for a couple of months and I don’t know what happened there, I don’t know if I’d lost my logbook or – anyway, I done about eight or nine trips here and never even registered, and then they posted from there, from 64, er, 462 Squadron on Driffield to its other squadron which was at Driffield –
AM: Why did you keep, why did you keep getting posted to different ones?
HI: Well the pilot I went with in 462, bloke, Australian called Heurigen [unsure of spelling] – 462 they posted away completely [emphasis] but he, he stayed, he said ‘no I wanna stay here at Driffield’ and he went onto 466, and he took me with him. And when he finished, I was in, I didn’t know what to do, and they said ‘we want you to go to 158 Squadron at Lissett’ and that’s where I finished. I don about another ten trips there, and they said to me ‘you done enough, that’s it.’
AM: What was Lissett like?
HI: Nissan huts, terrible. Baking hot in the summer, freezing [emphasis] in the winter. And you come back off an op and you had to go in one of them bloody tin huts. The bedding was wet, yeah. But I survived.
AM: You did.
HI: Yeah, I really survived, yeah. All, most of them, all my friends went there, yeah, a lot.
AM: Was the DFC then for the number of operations you went on?
HI: Number of trips I done, sixty trips, yeah. Yeah, I done more now actually, but –
AM: Well the ones that didn’t yeah, didn’t get counted.
HI: Yeah.
AM: And then so from that point, when you did your last tour, sorry your last operation, then what happened, were you sent to demob?
HI: No, they said to me ‘what was your trade?’ The war had finished, and they said to me ‘what was your trade before the war? What did you do?’ and I said ‘I was an apprentice tailor,’ they said ‘we’ve got the job for you’ I thought – they sent me down to Newmarket on the racecourse, in charge of about eight or nine WAFs on sewing machines. I don’t know why they thought I was – they were making lorry covers on these machines, and they put me in charge of ‘em. Oh, when I was there.
AM: What was that like Harry?
HI: [Laughs] had a little giggle [laughter].
AM: So what, how old are you at this point you’re about twenty –
HI: About twenty, yes. Yeah, about, getting on for twenty.
AM: So go on, you had a little giggle [HI laughs], tell me [HI laughs] go on, tell me some stories.
HI: Yeah I was charge of them, that’s it [laughs].
AM: Right, alright then.
HI: Yeah and then I stayed in Newmarket – oh blimey, it’s, oh it’s only twenty past.
AM: No, we’re alright.
HI: Newmarket was a bombing station if you believe it or not. The Rowley Mile was a runway for 75 Squadron, a New Zealand squadron, and after the war they turned it into a Prussian [?] depot. They was dropping all the aircraft into Newmarket and crushing ‘em.
AM: Crushing them?
HI: Crushing ‘em. Hundreds of ‘em. Into this big machine they just went pfft like, just crushed ‘em up, piled ‘em up. As far as we could see was one huge pile of aluminium.
AM: Going back to you though, so you’ve had your giggle with your WAFs –
HI: Yeah.
AM: Then what? Did you get –
HI: I had a couple of giggles [laughter from both] but it was handy there because we could get up to London from Newmarket, they had a railway station –
AM: How long was it before you were demobbed then?
HI: Er, got demobbed in forty, 1946, August ’46.
AM: So quite early, a lot earlier than a lot of ‘em then? ‘Cause you’d been in the whole –
HI: I’d been in the whole, since [unclear] yeah. I come out, about to find a job, I couldn’t go back to tailoring, I’d missed it you know. Anyway, I tried, went back to tailoring and learnt a little bit. Things were very difficult when we come out, we had no houses, you can imagine London, there was all bloody roofs off the buildings, and then we had to wait for a house. I was married then.
AM: I was gonna say, where did, where did you meet your wife?
HI: I knew her from the, from the blackout. I was sitting on a seat in the blackout and she came along with her friend and we started talking and that’s how it started, and I, it was only when I [unclear] and we got married in forty, 1945, Christmas 1945, and I remember we, we done a couple of trips, and I remember I bombed Dresden, we bombed Dresden just after Christmas, February, but we got married on the Christmas, and I shouldn’t have got married ‘cause we had nowhere to bloody live, better than living with the mother-in-law for a little while, got fed up with that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-23
Format
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01:15:35 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AIronsH150723
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Italy
England--Lincolnshire
Title
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Interview with Harry Irons. One
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Irons left a tailoring apprenticeship to join the Royal Air Force and trained as a wireless operator but actually became an air-gunner. He describes the uniform he wore and the unreliability of heated suits. Discusses the invention of scarecrows which crews believed were sent up by the Germans to distract and demoralise them. Also describes a number of operations including to the Ruhr Valley and a number of daylight operations including Le Creusot (17 October 1942) and Milan (24 October 1942). Goes on to discuss the removal of Perspex from Lancasters to prevent oil from exhausts from affecting visibility, the introduction of radar into the rear turret and it’s quick removal after it was found as used by Germany and Schrage Musik. He returned to tailoring following his retirement from the Royal Air Force.
Contributor
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Katie Gilbert
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
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1942-10-24
1942-10-17
158 Squadron
462 Squadron
5 Group
50 Squadron
77 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Augsburg (17 April 1942)
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
briefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
Gee
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Halifax
In the event of my death letter
Ju 88
Lancaster
military living conditions
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Nissen hut
radar
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Driffield
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Lissett
RAF Manby
Scarecrow
Spitfire
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/463/8345/AAllenG150917.2.mp3
2746351851156e8d9988d59fc6e382b8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Allen, Graham
G Allen
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Allen, G
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Graham Allen.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-17
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MY: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Malcolm Young, the interviewer [sic] is Graham Allen, and the interview is taking place at Mr Allen’s home in West Hallam, near Ilkeston in Derbyshire. The date is 17th of October 2015. Well thank you very much for agreeing to be part of this oral history and the simple opening question is how did you come to be in the Royal Air Force?
GA: Yes, well I was 19 at the time, and I didn’t want to be called up, I’d rather join up and I preferred the air force to any of the other services, so I went down to the Assembly rooms, as it were in Derby, and fixed a date and they had a word with me and when I went with actual joining up part, it was of course a question of what, what are you going to do? So they asked me a few questions as usual, [inaudible] and they didn’t think my education was up to pilot, navigator, radio operator or anything like that, which I agree with them it wasn’t, I only went to a primary school not secondary school or anything like that, and I realise now that is was very necessary to have that, further education,especially in maths and things like that. So they said well you might [inaudible] flight mechanic, I said well that sounds all right, I asked what was involved, so they told me roughly what it was going to be, and I agreed that, that was probably the best way of getting in the air force. Right, well I was called, it was quite a long time before I was called up 7 months it would be about 19 [hesitation] 1940, the end of 1940 I think, 41 perhaps,
MY: Yes
GA: It was nearly the end of the year, and they eventually called me up for my, it was up to Morecombe which was a training place where we did square bashing and anything that followed up, it was Morecombe, they’d got two big bus garages where the local buses operated from and they turned those into workshops, and all down the side of the workshops were these fighter force bi-planes string bags [?] as we used to call them, so those were the things we had to train on. But before that I had to do the square bashing on the prom at Morecombe, where we were put into civilian digs, and oh parade on the promenade there, and parades in the morning and all that sort of thing, and the prom provided a good parade ground for square bashing, so we had some funny weather while we were doing it.
MY: Yes
GA: But we were alright, I quite enjoyed it. Marching round and rifle and bayonets, all that sort of business,but, then they, because I wanted to be flight engineer, not flight engineer sorry, flight mechanic, I went to one of these bus garages, to the training lot there, and they had some excellent civilian instructors and fitters, and they took us through all the basics of, [slight laugh] what I think of now as quite useless information, when you were taught to do all the rigging of the [?] airframe, by the way, [inaudible] airframe, and when they took us to do all the rigging and tightening all the wires up against templates to get the angle of incidence right, and all that sort of thing, it proved to be quite useless in the end, for us because those sort of aeroplanes had rapidly gone out of business, so anyway, we had quite useful stuff as well as that, and general mechanical details, apart from that we had exams occasionally I forget how many weeks it was now, but we were there for quite a while. [inaudible] did quite well, and they said would you like to go on a fitters course straight away, rather than go on this course as a flight engineer [?] so I took the opportunity went on and followed up with the fitters course, which we had to do more detailed work and more practical work [inaudible] After leaving there, I think that took nearly six months altogether, at the bus garages, I was posted to 152 Squadron, at Swanton Morley in Norfolk, and over there I think the first job was, chief mechanic, there was a pile of , there was a pile of Spitfire wheels in one corner of the hanger, all with tyres on, he says there’s a couple of tyre levers there I want you to get those tyres off before you, my friend and I were joined up together, we actually stayed together, there, there pair of us, worked on these wheels at the start getting all the tyres off [inaudible] So that’s, i remember the first job I had, after that we joined in with the squadron activities more and learned how to rescue the aircraft that had crashed and things like that, in fact the Spitfire was very weak on the undercarriage, and we hadn’t come across that before [?] but they easily broke, you get a bit of bad ground or something like that, because, as you know the Spitfire, they were very close together, and retracted outwards, the Hurricane was wider went inwards so the Spitfires were very, it was a vulnerable part of them, otherwise a pretty good aircraft, so my work there was inspection, partly, various parts and what we were looking for was loose controls and things like that, metal fatigue and various things like that, inspection at various times, as they did the same theses days, so most of my work was that, and dealing with these crashed aircraft that came in, that were heavily shot up and damaged and things like that. I remember one way of getting around when an undercarriage had gone, at the time we had an old costermongers cart two wheels and a flat deck like that and two handles that you could get hold of we used to rush out with this costermongers barrow and shout two six and anybody that was available to get hold of the wing tip heaved it onto this, one wing onto this costermongers barrow, we used to wheel it in like that it was quite a regular occurrence in fact. They were still operating it was well after the battle of Britain of course that they were still operating sweeps over the enemy territory and they used to come back, full of beams if they’d shot something up, rolled over the airfield, slow rolls, missing the watch office by [laughter] inches so it was quite exciting at times like that. Now let me think, I was at [inaudible] I stayed with them until, several months we were at Swanton Morley and then we moved to Coltishall which was a bigger place as you probably know, there were two squadrons there 152 and I’m not sure what the other one was, anyway [inaudible] it was going to be equipped with more modern spitfires ours were fairly basic [inaudible] all guns no cannons so they shipped us over to Northern Ireland to Londonderry Eglinton[?] in Londonderry shipped us over there [inaudible] shipped, it was very rough on the way over I remember, and when we got there [inaudible] Belfast I think the route and we spent some time in Northern Ireland at Eglington not doing very much until these new planes came in and the ferry pilots brought them in, and the first time I ever flew was, we hitched a ride back with these ferry pilots, well I’d got a 48 hour pass, it was a bit more than 48 pass, it would be about a 4 day pass and we hitched a ride in a [pause] an old biplane that took passengers [pause]it took about four or five passengers, so then the pilots came over we got talking to them, I was on duty crew that day, that’s why we met them, we were topping the tanks up and that sort of thing and they came in, they brought several new spitfires in. We cadged a lift the next day, we got permission to put our passes forward, two of us hitched a lift on the trip to England, we spent two days in England [slight laugh] back again, that was over by boat then, the Ben-My-Chree was the boat we used to sail in, it was an ex-passenger trip on the Belfast run, in fact it was still battered about because it had been at Dunkirk, there was quite a few holes in the side and things like that. [laughter]I shall always remember it having a look round and things. Anyway we got in on time, back and after about 2 or 3 days leave and we had to hitch hike the rest of the way of course the landings were up north near Ailsa Craig, I remember we passed Ailsa Craig before we landed, as I say they left us there to hitch hike down to our, Derby, and then train back, managed to get back alright without getting jankers or anything like that [laughter] so I did the rest of my life in Northern Ireland on the new Spits that came over. And then while I was there there was a message came through on the routine orders about flight engineers training you could volunteer as a flight engineer if you were a fitter or flight mechanic and it was all to do with the introduction of the four engine bombers. So I [inaudible] and volunteered [laughter] as I’ve often thought and quite soon, we were brought together we had to have an interview in Belfast, with the top brass there asking us why we wanted to be flight engineers and things like that [inaudible] applicants and that, I remember we had to stay the night there in Belfast and there were no proper beds they were sheets of plywood between two posts, in Belfast town hall they made it up for us to stay the night while we were interviewed, so that was my interview for aircrew [slight laugh] Anyway the next thing was I was posted to Aire, now if I get this right [inaudible] posting came through to [long pause] oh I know it was to go to 106 squadron when we’d finished the fitters course, posted to 106 squadron and they have a training wing there or something, it wasn’t a proper training place, they introduced these conversion units, 1654 conversion unit I think it was Swinderby, so first of all we were posted to 106 squadron who were supposed to be at Conningsby anyway we ended up at Conningsby, they said oh they left a fortnight ago, they are at Syerston now so they duly, instead of sending us to Syerston, these conversion units had just started properly and I think it was 1654 at Swinderby, I might have the number wrong, anyway we did Swinderby, posted to Swinderby and there we were crewed up as you know, they practised crewing up [?] chuck you all in a big hanger and sort it out for yourselves, and we did, eventually we arrived at the right crew, they were quite keen on people who had been flight mechanics and things like that fitters. The aircrew had been flying Whitley’s, my crew had, to get two more members a gunner and an engineer they were quite keen on people that had, had a bit of experience on aeroplanes at least,
MY: Yes
very little flying experience on a Spitfire squadron [laughter] in fact the only time I ever flew was that time when we hitched a ride. We did the course at the, forget how long it was now, it wasn’t a terrible long time six or seven weeks or something like that after we’d crewed up, we did quite a few short cross country and things like that and having never been in a war plane before I had to learn it as I went along [slight laugh] and they helped me quite a lot, they knew I knew the stuff on engines
MY: Yes
and things like that so I was able to guide them through that part of it, the rest of the crew we got on very well. My pilot was, we were all sergeants or flight sergeants, he was ex-public schoolboy and he came from London but I got on very well, he taught me a lot and I taught him a lot, and we eventually got posted to 106, and false alarm there in the first place we were able to choose the same squadron, we were originally posted so that was 106, we were interviewed by Wing Commander Gibson as you probably know [laughter]
MY: Yes
and it was quite an interview believe me, they had us in all standing to attention, he was very , very abrupt [inaudible] an arrogant man really and anyway, we got through the interview and I always remember him saying “now you wont get any leave just yet you’ve come here to fight and you either die or finish your tour and get a gong”
MY: [laughter]
and that was part of the interview with Wing Commander Gibson. Anyway we were posted to our usual [inaudible] 106 and first time I flew on operations there we had just done a few to get to know it, flights and [inaudible] the local countryside and things like that, and the new crew, as I say we taught each other a lot, anyway, while we was there I hadn’t done any, we hadn’t been on op’s and one night in January, the 17th of January they put the squadron on op’s, but we weren’t mentioned, but they called me up to the office, [inaudible] and said well we will get you together and brief you and that, right, there’s a chap gone, there’s an engineer gone sick you are in his crew now as flight engineer, just for tonight [?] and of course it was Berlin, [laughter] first time they bombed Berlin for a long time, January 1943 so I went and found my crew, my other crew quite strangers to me, their crew, I think, I don’t think he’s gone sick but from knowing the history of the crew later on I rather think he had gone LMF [lack of moral fibre]
MY: Yes
so they had to find another engineer quick. So I got my first trip as Berlin so all went well for most of the time although it was a bit of a shambles nobody could find the pathfinders flares and everybody seemed to be mixed up and when we eventually, our bomb aimer said right I think I can recognise something, there’s an airfield there its got a peculiar watch office in a horseshoe shape which I know to be Tempelhof airfield and so we dropped the bomb on there, we couldn’t find anything else to drop it on, so we started back no trouble [inaudible] but nothing to write home about and so we started back on the way back and we’d been about oh I should think it’d been about, nearly three quarters of an hour something like that on the way back after, and the shout went up fighter fighter and the usual thing and it was a JU88 coming up behind us, started firing he caught us quite unawares and all I saw was flashing lights flashing passed the cockpit and this JU88 was pumping shells at us our guns did very well though and they shot him down [pause] he came up a bit too close, and they said they claimed him as, then later on they both got immediate DFM’s when they came back. Anyway they shot this JU88 down and I seen it where it was claimed and ratified we came back, except one of the engines was on fire one of our engines was on fire some of the stuff had hit it and it was flaming a bit so I went through the process of feathering and directioning and all that [?] which didn’t work, we kept going for a bit and the pilot eventually said, well get ready to bail out because I don’t think that fire is going to stop, I think its going to spread and anyway we got parachutes ready and things like that, but it did start to go out and something had taken effect and he’d dived quite a long dive to try and get some sort of reaction from that and it seemed to work, I know that sounds like an American film but it did work in that case and the fire went out, and so we were three engines, we set back, set a course back and got back alright but we radioed one of the Manson, Woodbridge or Carnaby, which were the three emergency airfields, I think it was Woodbridge, that we went to and landed there on three, no trouble, it doesn’t matter about one engine gone on the bank, and stayed the night there, we got picked up by, someone fetched us in another Lancaster in the morning took us back, so that was my first op [laughter].
MY: Quite a baptism of fire [laughter]
GA: Really yes, actually it was but [inaudible] were really easy after that, a lot of them anyway, so eventually I went back to my usual crew, then this other crew lasted three weeks after that, they were missing, if fact I’ve got the details where they were shot down [inaudible] on the internet if you wanted to get it [?] all the details where they are buried. [pause] So my crew got pretty good and we got to know most things we were attacked together once or twice, in fact we were a bit naughty sometimes but we didn’t get badly damaged or anything like that. Ah, what’s next in my story? [laughter] I had quite an uneventful, comparatively uneventful, we had our up and downs of course, didn’t get badly damaged or anything like that, until I was near to the end of the tour I think I was about two, think I was thirty, two, two off thirty, but some of the crew had made the thirty, because they had been on these submarine spotting on Whitley’s before, they said well you might as well, you’re with them so I was put off ops at twenty eight instead of thirty and they posted me to another, one of the con units to instruct there,
MY: Which conversion unit, can you recall?
GA: Yes, let me think on, I was at one or two places, Wigsley [?] which is now called Pigsley [?] in the books, it was such a rough place, [inaudible] in the books it was that rough they called it Pigsley, it was pretty rough, Wigsley, Skellingthorpe [long pause] let me think about this, I would say look in the log book but we didn’t put the stations in the log book, I think I ought to show you the log book to start with, I’ll show it you before we’ve finished,
MY: Fine I shall look forward to that,
GA: Anyway, I was transferred to several of these conversion units probably one of them but not, and round about the end of one of the con units I was sent back apparently on ops to do a second tour on ops to 463 Australians, now they were at Waddington, which was very much of a change from Wigsley, [laughter]
MY: Yep
GA: And at Waddington they posted my old Skipper McGregor with me, we made a pair for a new scheme they’d got checking crews at so many ops I think it was five ops, ten ops, fifteen, that was it about fifteen we assumed they knew their stuff by then, they’d either be missing or they knew their stuff by fifteen ops, anyway we spent I suppose, we were both on this quite a long time we were officially on ops but we were only a pair, we were without the rest of the crew, McGregor and myself, were on this job of checking the crews at various stages they said it saved a lot of trouble, it kept them up to scratch in other words
MY: Yes
GA: And try telling Aussies they were doing something wrong wasn’t easy, it some cases [laughter] but we got on very well with them actually in the end, and we were quite respected members of the squadron, I remember they, they made me a, at one of the mess parties they made me an honorary Australian gave me a Kangaroo badge to wear, it was on the ground floor by the way, opened the window at Waddington and we got slung out onto the flower bed outside [laughter] so they called me a, honorary Australian after that. Anyway we got on very well with them in the end until they were posted back to Australia and they had to find me a crew. Before then though I’d, my skipper left me he’d gone on one of these other crews then, he went to Metheringham at 106 back at Metheringham, they moved from Syerston to Metheringham, and they posted him back to Metheringham, and he was on these Lincolns, in fact he wrote to me asking if I’d like to go back with him, but then before I’d got chance to reply they made Metheringham on the Lincolns they didn’t want flight engineers unless they’d done pilot training, well I’d never done pilot training, except on the squadrons, I flew Lancaster’s on my own quite a bit on the squadrons, when I was with an Aussie pilot which I got in the end, we were back flying prisoners of war back from France and Belgium and places like that, and it was this Aussie pilot and his crew, and he used to walk around in the fuselage [inaudible] and leave me to fly it [laughter] so I’ve flown Lancaster’s quite a lot but not taken off, or not landing, but I’ve got quite a few hours on flying the Lancaster on my own
MY: Good
GA: So, anyway that was part of the training and I was with them until they actually all of them went back to Australia, then they posted me as assistant adjunct administration Squadron something like that,
MY: Yes
GA: Which from then on I was demobbed,
MY: This story that’s in the Bomber Command Association magazine that being attacked by a 262 could you say something about that?
GA: Sorry, that was when I was with the Australian squadron, at Waddington, I did actually go back on ops real ops, and that was one of them.
MY: Yes
GA: Well we went, now my pilot was, my old pilot in that case he hadn’t left the 106, so he was, he got me as engineer because I was his engineer all the time, I hadn’t acted as one on ops until then, so they put us both back on ops the picture, the crew out of oddments that were left odd Australians that were left hadn’t gone back and some of them English, some Australian. Anyway I hardly knew the crew except the pilot, anyway we went in daylight, we had been practising two days before, formation flying, formation flying with the Lancaster squadron, its was a gaggle, they used to call it a gaggle, roughly behind each other and that sort of thing, and we were in this gaggle, and we got about I think it was about ten thousand feet something like that, it was, we had got to go quite a long way and we got over the channel or the North Sea, North Sea, we were at Hamburg, and we were, how did it happen? We were going along nicely on the way to Hamburg, and suddenly, red flares went up, that was the signal for being attacked, and we looked round and saw these, oh sorry, I am over running my story a little, I don’t know if you can do anything about that on there.
MY: Don’t worry
GA: On the way out, on the way out, we were still in England we had an engine failure, starboard outer, and it was the shaft that drives the magnetos, there is one shaft that drives two magnetos and it snapped, broke, it’d got a weak spot in it that actually sheared, so both magnetos were out, so literally it just windmilled, so I had to feather that, we decided to , skipper decided to try and keep up with them and keep up with the gaggle, but we were in a losing battle, we couldn’t keep up with the other Lancs. we were well behind by the time we got over there and on the way to Hamburg, so, this is when we were, got to Hamburg, there was 617 with us, they had got Tallboys, and they’d certain things that they had got to do there, and we were back up with 617 and made up about sixty aircraft [inaudible] we were on the tanks and things like that the rest of us, anyway we kept on to Hamburg, well behind by the time we got anywhere near it, the formation had left us, and we were on our own and we suddenly saw these red lights go up, red flares go up, ahead of us where the [inaudible] squadron was then we saw these 262’s diving down straight through the formation, and [pause] we were well behind and said well if their getting that treatment were going to be in trouble soon, anyway, one of the ones, they shot two Lancs. down well ahead of us and one of them they shot the tail straight off, they’d got cannons in these things, they’d gotfour cannons, four thirty millimetre cannons, in the nose of the 262, it must have just hit it [smacking sound] like that, about middle [?] of the door, and I should think it would be about a mile in front of us or something like that by that time, we were well behind the main squadron, and we saw this tail plane and the top bit of the door floating down like that with the gunner still in it, and the rest of the Lanc straight down without the tail, so there were two missing that day, that was one of them. So we eventually said well they haven’t seen us yet, but we went a little bit further and saw one coming towards us so we started pumping red lights out of the out of the very pistol, the wireless op had that, they had a signal, they screwed into the top by the wireless operator, and he got hold of the cartridge, anyway he used up all his red ones [laughter] and used most of the others as well, trying to attract attention , we got a supposedly an escort of mustangs, but we hadn’t seen them until then, and suddenly, way after we saw this shot coming at us and he hit us, knocked another engine out on the same side, but it didn’t set on fire fortunately, just knocked it out and he was coming round for another do, and these mustangs appeared, two mustangs, that was in my picture [?] and this 262 cleared off as soon as he saw the mustangs coming before he had another go at us I was very lucky.
MY: So did you finish your operational flying on 463?
GA: Yes, I only did, I went to Pilsen another one [pause] and err now, Pilsen, it’s in the log book [?] I can show you it, and then we finished operational flying, 463 it’s the last one I did in fact that was the end of the war. While I was still on 463.
MY: How long after that was it you were demobbed?
GA: [pause] We were sent on these postings and assistant adjutant after that, only about six months I should think, six months at the outside, yes. [pause]
MY: What did you do once you had left the RAF at the end of the war?
GA: I went back to my old firm as a rep at first, I did a full bound apprenticeship, at a printing firm and they were still in operation when I came back and they had got a vacancy for a rep that had just left them so I wrote to the manager and asked him if I could apply he said yes and he interviewed me while I was still in the RAF and I got the job as their rep when I actually left which was within about a couple of months, something like that, so the rest of the time, for most of my life i’ve spent as a rep with this printing firm.
MY: And are you local to, in the Derby area?
GA: Yes, yes, it was called Derby printers limited.
MY: Right
GA: It no longer exists but [pause]
MY: Quite a change I should imagine from the hectic life you had lead during the war.
GA: It was, I can’t remember some of it, these days my memory isn’t what it used to be, as you’ve seen me tonight, I have sort of misplaced time haven’t I? Quite a lot of it, [inaudible] by the way I didn’t have a car in those days, I had to use all railways and buses and walking
MY: [laughter]
GA: It ranged between Liverpool, Manchester, London, Northampton, sort of area I covered and eventually they bought me a car after about six months, after about, no not six months more like six years
MY: [laughter]
GA: [pause] And, I eventually became general manager at the same firm after I finished as a rep, at that time the manager was retiring and I got the job as general manager, a bit earlier because he died before he retired.
MY: If you just think back to the time while you were in Bomber Command and the places where you were stationed what sort of relationship did the people on the station have with the local villages and towns?
GA: Well at Syerston where I did most of my ops there was a farmhouse on the perimeter and when we were taxying round to go to the end of the runway there were about fifty people on the top of this farmhouse and the buildings there, never missed they were all waving flags and giving us the go ahead, and then the, of course they weren’t allowed on the actual aerodrome, there were enough people at the caravanners, you know the people who used to gather at the caravan to wave you off. There was only, they were all civilians at this place, at Syerston, and so they all gathered on all sorts of standing up places to look over, waving us off, so that was good. As regards the, we never really met them [inaudible] the local, there was never a local village it wasn’t very near a village, you used to see people in the pubs, but we used to go to Lincoln occasionally, but, as far as I could tell we had good relations, but nothing striking, Lincoln was our main town if we wanted a night out, there again I kept with my old pilot here, we got posted together, [inaudible] right to the end, and met him until he went to Metheringham.
MY: And did he survive the war?
GA: Yes,
MY: Good.
GA: He was an insurance man with the Sun Insurance, and he opted to go to South Africa, to their branch in South Africa, and he stayed there and he wrote to me quite a few years eventually it dropped off a bit [inaudible] I know that he was alive in South Africa, up to, oh, six or seven years ago and my gunner [inaudible] he got in touch with me, I found him, [inaudible] his address in England when he came over on a visit to his daughter who still lives in England and he had a word or two with him.
MY: I notice that in the book the bomber boys, you’re pictured in your flight engineers seat, was that on 106?
GA: Yes [pause] we had a drop down seat, we a drop down seat, no back on it or anything like that, so we could sit there if we wanted, we stood most of the time, take off, take off we stood up took the throttles up to the gate and push them to the gate if necessary, wheels up, flaps, used to do all that, standing up, it wouldn’t have been very good in a crash would it?
MY: And then you’d stay standing for most of the trip?
GA: Quite a lot yes, there’s a bubble on the side window of a Lancaster and if you’re in expected, or position port shall we say, fighters about you used get in there to look underneath,
MY: Amazing
GA: But that seat we used it on cross country’s and that sort of thing, if you wanted a rest, but it wasn’t much of a seat there were no safety belts on it or anything like that [laughter] [pause]
MY: What was the average sort of length of an operational sortie whilst you were flying?
GA: Well we did a lot to the Ruhr which was about, [pause] between five and six hours I should think, according to which end of the Ruhr you took, and then there’s places like [pause] let me get my log book out,
MY: Mmmm, is it in here?
GA: Its in there, much battered, that’s the medals [laughter] which I shall be wearing at the do I think
MY: I should hope so
GA: [inaudible]
MY: Yes
GA: [rustling]Right, I made this myself, [pause, rustling] Oh that’s the crew waiting to go, [pause]my skipper, and Gibson, the rest of the crew is the ones, by the way I forgot to tell you that, they took him the first night as a [inaudible]Berlin was on two nights, the first night I was on, sorry the first night the skipper was on, with that crew, and Richard Ingleman was with them doing the [inaudible] the commentary on it, while they were there [?] [inaudible] I got hold of this [inaudible] this, the bomb aimer was a navel bloke [inaudible]
MY: Oh lord
GA: [pause] I’m finding it, [inaudible, rustling] there’s a bit of damage, [pause] Very interesting pilot I used to fly with, [pause] Bonham Carter, Group Captain Bonham Carter, he was a CO at Wigsley [laughter] and he took me on my commissioning interview, and he used to come into the crew room sometimes and, anybody want a trip to Swinderby, anywhere like that, he’d say I’ve got to go and see an old pal so I want an engineer, so I used to go and fly with him sometimes [laughter] [rustling]
MY: At what stage, [cough] pardon me, at what stage were you commissioned?
GA: When we, after we’d finished ops and when we had been posted to a conversion unit
MY: Right,
GA: [pause, rustling] oh I can’t find, [pause, rustling] Stuttgart six hours, Pilsen eight fifteen, Berlin seven forty five, these are the hours, [pause] this is [pause] typical entry in the log book how many hours, how many trips in a month [pause] got a few Gibson signatures in there, you see [pause] [rustling, pause]
MY: There he is Guy Gibson, OC 106 squadron,
GA: Right
MY: This of course was, its was when he finished this tour that he went to take on 617
GA: Right, that’s right he went from there, you’ll see his signature suddenly ends, some of the flight commanders had to sign it, that was when he went to, six, 617.
MY: Did anybody else from 106 go with him?
GA: Yes, I am trying to think which one it was now, I read the book [laughter] and that sort of thing, there was only one of them, from 106 [pause]
MY: I see you’ve got Halifax as well as Lancaster
GA: Yes they
MY: In here
GA: They wanted to save the Lancaster’s for ops so they got a lot of, they were trying to make them all Lancaster squadrons so as the Halifax squadrons became redundant, they had, we had Stirling’s, Halifax’s as well as Lancs. on the conversion units [pause]
MY: Was there, much difference between them in terms of flying characteristics the Halifax and the Lancaster?
GA: The Halifax was a, it wouldn’t handle like the Lancaster at all, it was prone to getting out of awkward positions when flying, used to drop a wing and that sort of thing on it, the Lanc wouldn’t, so in the Lanc you could bring the throttles right back, pull you stick right back to, till you wait until it stalled it went down perfectly straight like that, [inaudible] gentle. The Halifax would start spinning, the Stirling it just couldn’t get up above 12,000 feet, they’d not carry very much anyway
MY: No
GA: But it was beautiful to fly in the air
MY: The Stirling?
GA: Yes, very steady [?] [inaudible]
MY: So which, presumably you did Stirling’s in your first heavy conversion unit did you?
GA: Yes
MY: Yes there we are
GA: Some of them are in there yes [pause]
MY: And was the, you hear lots of stories about the real affection that people had for the Lancaster, is that correct?
GA: Oh yes, nothing quite like it really, the others that I’d flown in, [inaudible] Stirling’s and the Halifax’s, not on operations though. We got back, by the way on that last one I was telling you about where we attacked by the 262’s
MY: Yes
GA: They shot the other engine out so we came back with two on one side, and it was perfectly alright got a bit warm the engines, but [laughter] there we, we contact the emergency airfield and that was, I think that was Woodbridge, it was one of the three big ones, it had a very wide runway and when they knew you were coming in on two engines on one side, they got a fire engine on one side ambulance on the other [laughter] [inaudible] foam all over the runway like that,
MY: But it was a successful landing was it?
GA: Yes, perfect landing, yes, that was my old pilot as well he was pretty good,
MY: This chap McGregor yes
GA: Yes
MY: Right
GA: Yes, he was a good friend and I am sorry he went to South Africa, so I didn’t see much of him after that,
MY: So would you, its funny question to ask in one sense given that were talking about war time, but did you enjoy your time, in, in Bomber Command?
GA: [pause] Yes, I did enjoy a lot of it yes, enjoyed flying and there were times when I wished I hadn’t but [laughter] but yes I did, I liked flying
MY: I note from your log book that there are a number of occasions when you would do trips on consecutive nights.
GA: Yes
MY: What did it feel like when you’d just come back from what would have been a quite traumatic experience, knowing that in twenty four hours you would be doing it all again?
GA: It was horrible really when they put them too close together like that, yes I didn’t like that part but I suppose it was necessary in those days, [inaudible] no I look back now and think how on earth did we stick it out and
MY: Well of course you were all very young men then weren’t you
GA: We were, we were
MY: Very resilient, the resilience of youth
GA: Exactly, yes, they had a different attitude to life, yes, but it, where they stick that close together it its not [laughter] it doesn’t sound right now does it?
MY: And when you got back from a sortie did you feel really fatigued?
GA: Yes, but not until you got in bed, things going round still, yes, [pause] some of the huts were, the accommodation was quite primitive in some of the [inaudible] some of the huts at Wigsley used to leak and you slept with your ground sheet on top of you, on top of your blankets
MY: [laughter]
GA: [pause, laughter] But places like Waddington and Syerston they were very good, [pause] Aye, have I taken up a lot of your time yet?
MY: I am intrigued by everything you have had to say, seriously,
GA: Are you
MY: Believe it or not we have been at it for nearly an hour and a half,
GA: Have we really
MY: And the time has literally flown
GA: Oh I haven’t dried up have I
MY: No you haven’t, It’s been absolutely marvellous
GA: I am afraid I have made a few mistakes, in timing like I did when I made a mistake in the last daylight we where things happened, and of course id you’d have said six months before that you’ve got to go and bomb Hamburg in daylight, [laughter] don’t be daft, it shows how the war deteriorated, because I mean I’d never seen a 262 before, neither had anybody else that I know
MY: Well they moved pretty fast as well didn’t they
GA: Oh yes, [laughter] but evidently, I don’t know who it was now I don’t think it was one of our squadron that got its tail shot off, makes you realise what fire power they’d got, I mean alright setting someone on fire, with your firepower but to see door I suppose is the weak spot of the fuselage to see it just literally chopped off like that its amazing, mmm.
MY: And presumably you have got your Bomber Command Clasp, at last
GA: [laughter] I have did you see it?
MY: I did yes, but um yes I was delighted when they finally saw sense and you know sort of
GA: Yes
MY: Gave that out, gave in to that and its, its so important it... but [pause] but you have, I mean it’s an amazing record, you’re sort of one and half tours on ops,
GA: Yes
MY: A distinguished flying medal, the Bomber Command Clasp I think its, for somebody who themselves has been a pilot in the Royal Air force its absolutely wonderful to sit and listen to things like this it really is absolutely marvellous
GA: I’m glad you were a pilot because you’ve understood a lot of what I’ve said
MY: Well of course its one of the things that attracted me to the whole project in the first place, because I have my own time, my own time in the service, I’ve always been, had a great interest in military history the air force history and to actually speak to people who were there
GA: Yes, yes
MY: Is, it so is, it’s an honour for me to be able to speak to people like you
GA: Good, I’ve got my grandson in-law is a pilot, so were following on [inaudible]
MY: Is he?
GA: He flies Hercules, and he’s now instructing on choppers,
MY: Oh right
GA: At, where they train all the navy and air force people together now
MY: What at Shorebury, at shorebury?
GA: Shorbury, yes
MY: Shorbury near Shrewsbury, oh right
GA: Yes, he’s instructor there now, and [inaudible] of lot of his flying on Hercules, to Afghanistan and that district
MY: Yes
GA: He was with the SAS team at one time, dropping them off the tail of the Hercules,
MY: I was talking to somebody the other day and we were commenting how, most, about five of the most senior posts in the royal air force, including the chief of the air staff
GA: Yes
MY: Are now helicopter pilots
GA: Are they really
MY: And that is a thing you wouldn’t have been able to say ten years ago,
GA: It is, it is
MY: but they, him his number two, another guy, Basnorth [?] the commandant of the royal air force college at Cranwell is a helicopter pilot and do you know, since the second world war, the only guy to walk round with a DFC with two bars is a helicopter pilot
GA: Really, DFC and two bars,
MY: And he won them in Iraq, and Afghanistan
GA: Oh yes
MY: he‘s now the station commander at Odiham,
GA: Ah
MY: But its quite a, I mean the helicopter fleet is, is so important nowadays, its as important, at least as important as the sharp pointy nose things that I used to fly, so it, its and its lovely to see
GA: Oh aye, aye, [inaudible] I can’t understand helicopters, he’s showed me inside one, I’ve never been in one and never been up in one
MY: Yes
GA: [inaudible]
MY: There we are,
GA: [rustling, inaudible] I was going to show you me grandson, we were together at the opening of the Bomber Command Memorial
MY: Oh right, so you’ve got a, let me take my papers away, and then we’ll be able to see, what you are doing [rustling] [inaudible] is it in there?
GA: No [inaudible]
MY: Was it in your black folder? I think what I’ll do is I’ll switch this off now
GA: Yes yes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Graham Allen
Creator
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Malcolm Young
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-17
Format
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01:12:42 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAllenG150917
Description
An account of the resource
Graham Allen joined the Royal Air Force aged 19. He trained as a mechanic and worked on inspection and recovery of Spitfire aircraft. He later volunteered to be a flight engineer, and flew a tour of operations with 106 Squadron. His first operation was to Berlin; they were attacked by a Ju 88 and returned on three engines. After the war he returned to work for a printing firm in Derby.
Contributor
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Linda Saunders
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
106 Squadron
463 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
fitter airframe
flight engineer
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Me 262
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
P-51
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Wigsley
RAF Woodbridge
runway
Spitfire
Stirling
training
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Title
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Bullock, William
William Edward James Bullock
W E J Bullock
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Bullock, WEJ
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Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant William Bullock (1916 - 2017, 566069 Royal Air Force) and a memoir. He served in Egypt and Iraq before serving as an engineering officer at RAF East Kirkby and Coningsby.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by William Bullock and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles [AH]. The interviewee is William Bullock [WB]. The interview is taking place at Mr Bullocks home in Horncastle, Lincolnshire on 30th October 2015.
[noise]
WB : What?
PH: You can start now.
WB: Well, What? I was born in Marshfield.
PH: Yeah.
WB: Yeah in Gloucestershire, September 30th 1916, That’s right. And after two or three years we moved into Bath, and eventually I got a scholarship to the secondary school, and, in 1932 I took the entrance exam for the RAF apprentices, and I got through alright. When I went to Holton as an apprentice for three years and I passed out in 1935, and went to Altarum[?]. It was an ex-naval Air Station, way back, and we kept time with the ships bell in the guard room [chuckle]. in the guard room. Anyway, in February ’37, well, we got posted to Egypt for Florin[?] Training School and when the war started we moved from Egypt to Havaneer[?] in Iraq. And in, I think it was in May, May ’41 the Iraqis were trying to get us out of their country and let the Germans in, and they surrounded the camp and they shelled us and bombed us for five days, day and night, bombs and shells. And, anyway, we gave a good account of ourselves and when we killed a lot of them, and in the end they decided to pack up and go. Then in, well, about May I came home, and I went to Cranwell on a Coastal Command Station, and anyways, was there for about eight months. Then I got moved to Wigsley which was is a Bomber Command training unit, training pilots for Lancasters and whatnot. And, ow, I think that would be May, May ’41 was it? I, I decided to take commission and I was commissioned as an engineer officer and I moved around various places. I did a year at East Kirkby as the Technical Adjutant doing all the paperwork and whatnot. And, anyway, I did a year there, and then I moved to Metheringham, 106 Squadron, and anyway I was there, they, they worked me fairly hard and the engineer, the group engineer came down and he said ‘Right, I want to move you Coningsby, to pathfinder squadrons, forty Lancasters. Do you think you can cope?’ I said: ‘I’ll do my best sir.’ He said ‘Right, get there on Monday. You can be a Flight Lieutenant on Friday.’ Anyway, I got there and I worked hard for, oh, three, four months and always kept me forty Lancasters going. And well then, of course, the war packed up. The Japs, the Germans packed init, and I moved to Strubby we were’re living in tents and we were waiting to go to Okinawa to bomb Japs. And then the Japs packed in, so we moved, I was there for a bit and then I we got moved, got posted to a unit over by Chester, 54 RUP. And I moved in, I reported in to senior officer. And I said: ‘RUP?’ He said: ‘Yeah.’ I said: ‘ Well, RUP? R U Repair Unit, P what’s planned.’ He said: ‘Oh bulldozers, excavators and that sort of stuff.’ ‘Oh, I’m an aircraft engineer, I’m going back to Strubby.’ He said: ‘You’re bloody well not. You’re gonna Singapore next Wednesday.’ [chuckle] Anyway, we got, I got a fortnight leave before I went to Singapore and in that time I did quick and got married to Mary. Dashed into Lincoln, got a licence from the Bishops, whatever-he-was. And we got married, got married on the Wednesday and on the Saturday recalled from leave and the next Wednesday Singapore [laugh]. And got out there but the unit I was with they never really did get never got off the ground because we, we were supposed to be repairing all sorts of, you know, bull- bulldozers, and excavators and all that sort of stuff [belch] but the machinery never turned up and in the end, in the end they more-or-less disbanded the outfit and they kept me on and all the airfield construction plants, masses of bulldozers and cranes and all that sort of stuff, they said: ‘Right now transfer that to Air Ministry Works Department, the civvy lot’, so I spent all the this time getting this stuff transferred. And then the unit at Hong Kong closed down and all their stuff came down to Singapore by ship. And they said: ‘You will collect it from the docks and take it up to Changi. And it was hard work. Anyway, we managed it, we got it there. And in the meantime, we were living in tents. But anyway, I did me spell there then, and oh what, I decided to relinquish my commission and come home. I weren’t all that happy, so I packed up and came home, and I went back in the ranks as a flight sergeant, and I soon became a warrant officer and I did, oh, I did a spell at Waddington and Hemswell home on and Spalding Moor, and then got moved to Germany, up at Sylt, up on the north Frisian Islands. And I broke[?] there for a couple of years, and came back and went Shrewsbury I’we did six very nice years at Shrewsbury, very nice years at Shrewsbury and then I got moved again up to Lynton-on-Ouse and blow-me-down if they didn’t send me back to Germany [laugh]. At this time we went to Cologne, just on the Zeiderhorf on the outskirts of Cologne. It was very nice and Mary came out and joined me there [sup on tea] and had a couple of very nice years in Germany. And then when we came back, where’d I go? Where’d I go from [pause] I can’t think where I came back to [pause], not sure really. Sure, I can’t remember. Turn that thing off.
[restart of recording]
WB : I can’t remember, what was it year? Anyway, in Germany, I was up at Sylt and there was six of us. It was in the Cold War time, so called. And there was six of us trained on this Enigma machine and, you know, it was quite the thing and one day I got there and they said: ‘Your best blue is, in the back of that van is one of our Enigma machines and it’s got to go headquarters at Buckleburg [?], 200 mile away.’ And they said: ‘You are taking it.’ I said: ‘Oh.’ He said: ‘Your orders are get it there and if you need this, don’t hesitate to use it.’ And they gave me a revolver and a box of ammunition. They said: ‘You have to use it, use it, but that must be got there!’ Anyway, we got it there, no bother, and coming back the following morning the battery packed up. We called into an RAF camp, they didn’t want to know us. A bit later on we met a RAF, an Army camp and called in there and said: ‘Can you help me?’. They said: ‘Yeah.’ Gave me a new battery and then a bit further on the throttle control spring on the engine broke and we couldn’t control it so and I didn’t know what to do and we came to a very nice old lady’s shop, and I said: ‘Stop.’ And I had a flash of inspiration and I went in the lady’s shop and I said: ‘I want some elastic that wide please, so she said there, and I said ‘It’s for my car.’ And we went out and wound it round and round and round these two stops for the throttle spring and we drove 200 miles on a piece of elastic. [chuckle] Anyways, that was in Sylt, then what -
PH: Bill, what, why don’t you tell the story about Old Sarum [?] when you went up with your boss and nearly clocked the cathedral?
WB: Oh yes, that was at Old Sarum. I went up flying with the boss in an open-seater aircraft and it was foggy and it was about 400 feet and the boss said: ‘I’ll come down to 400 feet and we’ll see if we can follow the railway back down to the town’. And we were down there in the fog and I looked and I was I was ‘Look! Look!’ and we were heading straight for the cathedral. The spire was sticking out through the fog and we were going straight for it, and we managed, and somehow we missed it. That was, that was that one. And then another time, we were flying and it, it you were in the back cockpit, you had a harness with a chain going down to the floor to hold you in, and a cable rather, and we were going along and we hit an air pocket and the plane went down and I was out! and the chain tightened and I went ‘Bomp’ and pulled me back down again. [chuckle] So that was two I’d missed.
AH: Could you, could you tell me a bit more about when you were in Iraq?
WB: Iraq?
PH : You were twenty-one, weren’t you?
WB: Yeah, yeah somewhere around there, yes, it was hot there. It was a hundred and, it got to an hundred and thirty in the summer, really hot. And when these, [unclear] and when they were bombing and shelling us, it went on day-and-night for five nights and you slept under your bed and you ‘whee’ [emphasis], you hear the head of shells going over and that one’s going for the bomb dump, and ‘whee’ and anyway we did it for five days and they packed up, and then we went on normal and we heard a different noise. And we said: ‘That’s something different’, and we looked up and there’s three German bombers coming down. And we said: ‘Where the heck have did they come from?’ And the Germans had come into Mosul, it was about a couple of hundred miles up and they came down bombing us. They came at eight in the morning, and four in the afternoon, regular as clockwork, the Germans bombing and, machine guns, anyway. We shot one or two down and in the end they, they packed up, then we followed them back to Mosul and then got them when they landed, with, with our the Hurricanes. We, we got them on the floor and they packed up, so that was peace. And, anyway decided come home. And –
PH: You actually popped a few shots with your gun didn’t you?
WB: Yes. There was a man diving at me with his plane and I managed to get me Lewis loose gun on him, but he didn’t hit me and I didn’t hit him. And we came home and [sup of tea] [loud thump] we came down, we were in Bombay for a couple of weeks waiting for a ship and then we came over to Mombasa and then we came round to Durban, and we had a couple of, eight, weeks in Durban living out in tents on the runway and then we got down to Cape Town and I managed to get ashore and go up Table Mountain. And you go halfway up in the bus to the land and then you got a cable railway for a mile [shudder]. And we got up there, and had a walk round, that was very good. And coming home, we got up to Lagos and I’m afraid I went down with Malaria, and I was in the ships hospital for about a couple of weeks with very, very bad malaria. Didn’t do me any good. And eventually we got home.
PH: Weren’t they going to chuck you overboard?
WB: Well, yes. They, I, I, I met the orderly who dealt with me sometime, I met him in Boston. And he said: ‘When you came in’, he said, ‘you were pale blue and we didn’t think you’d last the night out. So we said we’d chalk you up for over the side in the morning.’ But, anyway they treated me with MNB243 tablets, you know, anti-malaria and no doubt, they brought me round when I was still having quinine six months later to get straightened up with it. Oh.
[restart of recording]
WB: Yeah we’re in Egypt 1937 at Abusir about sixty miles away from Cairo up near the Suez Canal and we had sand yachts there and we used to have races out in the desert. And in ’37 they decided to see if they could get to Cairo. And there were seven yachts and twelve men and a dog and we set off from Abusir and we went across the desert for five days heading for Heliopolis, just outside Cairo, and we got there alright and the, the station commander landed one day, he said: ‘Where are you on the map?’ They said: ‘We don’t have a map, Sir.’ He said: ‘How do know where you are?’ And the leader amongst us, he said: ‘Well, over there,’ he said ‘you can see the Suez hills.’ ‘Yes I can see them.’ he said ‘Towards the end there’s gap.’ And he said: ‘Yes.’ ‘We’re heading for that gap in the Suez Hills.’ And we hit the gap and went down, down to Cairo. Had five nice days in Cairo, out to the Pyramids and all the rest of it. And we came back another way and got back in four days, and it was quite an exciting trip, and we’re were the only people who’ve ever done it. And we had a sailing boat down on the - we were twelve miles away from the bit of lakes on the Suez Canal. We had a sailing boat there and the air was quite nice, you go sailing.
PH: What about when the CO spotted you first?
WB: Eh?
PH: When the CO spotted you arriving over the desert?
WB: Well he came down, landed, he came down more or less, you know two or three times -
PH: But, but he didn’t believe that he could see sails, could he?
WB: Oh yes, we, one night we were camped and we’d seen a plane going on down the bombing raids during the day, and anyway we bedded down for the night and we saw lots of flares going up in the distance. And some of our blokes they walked over to see these flares and there was an army camp there, just based. And they took the CO, and said: ‘What, what are you lot doing?’ And they said: ‘Well we’re the sand yachts. [unclear] He said: ‘Sand yachts! All day long I’ve seen bloody sails, and I said I knew there was no sea over there.’ And they said: ‘What, what’s all these flares?’ I said: ‘There time expired pyrotechnics, I think we’re just getting rid of them.’ So, anyway he wasn’t very pleased. [chuckle] But then anyway. He said: ‘I and been seeing all these sails and I knew full well there was no sea over there.‘ [chuckle] Oh, well anyway, we had a nice time in Cairo. Quite nice town. Err, what else? [sigh]
AH : What was is like coming back to Britain?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What was it like coming back to Britain?
WB : Coming back home?
AH : Yeah.
WB : Cold. [laugh] Yeah. We came, we came round Durban and Cape Town, and we just came out of Cape Town and we had, there was two, two troop ships and we had a couple of naval battles with us, and a cruiser and a couple of destroyers, and we were coming out somewhere and they said [?] ‘All hands on deck, put your lifebelts. Lifebelts on.’ So we all got on deck, and one of the destroyers it came near, and there must have been a German submarine down below and he threw depths charges up. And [intake of breath] their ship came up out of the water and we thought it’s never going down. 22,000 tonnes of ship, and we thought it was never going to a stop. But anyway, the sub didn’t get us, whether we got him or not; we, we got on home [sigh]. And we came in round the Atlantic, we c. Came into Liverpool. The night we lay there [inaudible] ladies[?], we were up on a transit camp at West Kirby, outside Liverpool and we were there and they came and bombed Liverpool. [chuckle] Oh dear. [sigh] And then when we were down at Kirkby there; a plane it took off and an engine failed, so it decided to come back. So he came back and he turned round and he came back and he, he force landed. He crash landed. And he was sitting there and he was rocking on a 4,000lb bomb. [chuckle] And we took it in turns to go in, they got the crew out, there was one man in the bomb bay. He was still, his head had gone through a partition. And we took it in turns to cut through to get him out. And we were there, and there, there were a couple of WAAFs who worked for me in the plump bay and they were outside, hugging each other. ‘Oh, Mr Bullock’s in there.’ And I said: ‘Well, if the bomb had gone off you wouldn’t have stood much chance would ya?’ [chuckle] Anyway, it didn’t go off. We got them out. [deep sigh]
AH: And what was your job role at Kirk-?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What, what did you do as what [sorry]
PH : What was your job at East Kirkby?
WB : I was, I was what they call the Technical Adjutant. I did all the paperwork and books and things and returns and all sorts of stuff, that kept me busy for a year.
PH : Did you have to clear the beds in the mornings after the raids?
WB : Pardon?
PH: Did you have to clear the personal possessions away?
WB : Oh yeah. Oh well, when the, yeah when the if any got missing on raids, yeah you had to go round and collect the kit, and I, I collected the kits of, I think, of 120 people while I was there. And we just collected it all up, put in a bag and took it to what they called ‘The Committee of Adjustment’ who sorted everything out, and actually down in East Kirkby now there’s a memorial and there’s a very nice poem, very nice poem at East Kirkby to that we lost a thousand men in three years. Yeah, that was pretty good. A thousand men in three years. [sigh]
PH : What about the plane that came in upside down?
WB : Oh yes. We, we heard a terrific roar and when we got out, there was a plane up there and, and it was coming down and one engine was on fire, and it was heading down and eventually crashed and blew up, and there was one man, they got him out, they took him away on a stretcher and he [unclear] [chuckle] And anyway we said: ‘Well what about this engine on fire?’ They said: ‘No, it wasn’t that engine, the other one.’ They said ‘when you saw him it, it was upside down.’ And he went in, oh, dear oh dear, six, six of them killed. [sigh] Yeah. I got a job there, I had to keep, keep a good supply of engines and propellers, and the engines, they had to, Rolls Royce, Glasgow they dealt with them, and, if, you know, I had a lorry load and a rear Corporal in Boston called Tom caught on, and I said: ‘Tommy, I’ve got a load for Glasgow.’ He said: ‘Right, send your lorry.’ And he sent me lorry and trailer to deliver with a load of all these engines. And up and off they went to Glasgow. And came back with another load. But the, the more powerful Rolls Royce engines, the Merlins they went to Derby, Nightingale Road, Derby. So, so we sent them there, and oh – yeah, err. Now what else?
PH : What about the Tirpitz?
WB : The Tirpitz? Oh well, erm. Yes, the erm, this [stutter] the group engineer he came to me at East Kirkby and there were the more powerful Merlins, 34s. He said: ‘I want all your 34s with the broad propellers in sets. He says ; ‘It’s nothing to do with you what I want them for,’ but he said: ‘Get me in sets of four and when you get a set let me know.’ So, so I’m getting them all, got all me, changed all the, the little engines, but took the big ones out. Got them all rolled up and anyway, he came and he took them, and they went to 9 Squadron at Bardney, and it was for bombing the Tirpitz. Yeah, so at least we had a hand in that. [sigh] Oh yes, when this, when this one crashed and landed and a big piece of the airplane, it went through the guardroom, and there was a man, a man in the guardroom locked up on punishment. And this piece of metal, huge leg that went across and through the wall in the Nissan hut, over a bed and out the other side. And the following morning the padre he was around, he saw it, he said: ‘No matter where the evil doeth, the wrath of the Lord shall seek him out.’ [long chuckle] Oh dear, oh well at, yeah, Metheringham, we had what they called FIDO and it was pipes down each side of the runway, all the way down, with little holes in and when it was really foggy, they’d fiddle with the flares all down each side of the runway, and we had it once and it burnt big holes in the fog. And they landed, and an American landed but he had to come for some, he came in, and in a a fighter plane, and he went down and he slewed off the runway, he hit all my FIDO pipes, went back on again, and when he got to Traffic Control, he said: ‘It’s a mighty good thing you got there for keeping people on the runway. [chuckle] Yeah, Gibson, Guy Gibson, he was, when he’d done his job he came to us at East Kirkby for a rest. And he wasn’t a nice man. Very unpopular man. ‘Don’t call me Guy. Call me Dam Buster.’ But his dam, his bomb didn’t hit the dam, it missed it. Oh, he wasn’t a very nice man at all. And in the end, he accidently got shot down by one of our own bombers. Yeah, they mistook him for a German and they shot him down.
PH : Didn’t, didn’t some Canadian guy clock him one?
WB : Yeah, yeah he was getting a bit too familiar with, when they went to Canada, he was getting a bit too familiar with some blokes wife. A great big Dutch man, so he just went up and he dropped him. ‘THUNK!’ He said: ‘Leave my wife alone.’ [chuckle] He wasn’t a popular man at all. [long sup of tea.]
AH : And how did you feel about where -? How was morale?
WB : [still supping on tea] About what?
AH : How was morale when you were at East Kirkby?
WB : Oh all right. Yeah I did, I did me year on paperwork [laugh].
PH : Did, didn’t you, get to advise somebody at the Battle of Britain Flight about how to get a propeller prop off?
WB : You what?
PH : You advised somebody at the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight how to get the propeller off because they were struggling to get the nuts off.
WB – Don’t get that –
PH : You got two awards for doing inventions, didn’t you?
WB : Oh, oh the thing the thing for taking propellers apart. Yeah [sniff sigh] Yes, when, yes that’s when I was at Waddington, and the big four bladed propellers on the, now then, they were Lincolns, not Lanc- Lincolns. You get the pulling them apart, and you shovel a big ring in and you had a big lever and pulled it, pulled it, pulled it. And, oh, it took men all day trying to get these damn things out and I said: ‘No.’ So I invented the little, a little gadget, a little tube about that long with a big nut and bolt in it and I put it in between the two blades and tightened it up, pushed them out two at a time. No bother. And I got a £15 reward from Bomber Command for inventing it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and I did something else, I did somewhere else. Yeah, at, you took the cylinders off jet engines and you put them in some horrible acid stuff and soaked them to get the carbon off, and you had to heat it with big immersion heaters, and it was in this wooden box, and it took all day to heat it, and it didn’t get anywhere, so I thought, no. So, when, when new batteries came for the aeroplanes, they were in big polystyrene packs, and I collected all these sheets of polystyrene about a foot wide and about three feet long and glued them all around this container, and it heated it up quickly, and kept it warm. No both rugger, and the Air Ministry gave me £5 for thinking of it, for saving electricity. [chuckle] Yeah. - Oh, a thousand bomber raid, well I didn’t get mixed up with any of them. The first one, we were at Wigsley, we sent our planes to Swinderby, we operated there, a thousand bombers –
PH : How did it actually work?
WB : Eh?
PH : How did it actually work? How did you get a thousand bombers up at the same time?
WB : Well, eh, I they were all over the place, weren’t on they? Just came up. [deep sniff and sigh]
PH : When you were at school you used a tray, sand tray.
WB : Yeah, yeah when we were in the infants school. We had a little tray with sand, you wrote in it with our fingers and they did the same in Mereman [?] Fen. I was talking to a man once said: ‘We had these little trays with sand now, you do it with your fingers.’ And then eventually you got slate and you had a piece of rag pinned to your jersey to rub the slate out [laughter and sigh]. The things we did.
AH : Can you tell me more about Coningsby?
WB : Pardon?
AH : When you were at Coningsby.
WB : Well, that was in ’45. Yeah, I had 40 Lancasters to look after. Make sure they were there at the right time, otherwise if you didn’t, you’re chucked you out. Anyway, I always got them there right. No bother.
PH : You were part of Pathfinders, weren’t they?
WB : Eh?
PH : Were they Pathfinder Squadrons?
WB : Pathfinder, yeah. The ones who went in early and dropped flares for the others to bomb. They had them at Coningsby, yeah. And I had to keep 40 of them ready, all the time. No bother.
PH : How did you manage to do it in the winter?
WB : Well, you just did. Mostly they didn’t give you a lot of trouble. You didn’t get a lot of trouble. But in the winter, it if it, if it was bad out, you sprayed the wings with the de-icing stuff, to get [unclear], to get the ice off, and the propellers. You had to get the ice off before they could go or otherwise it was they were, you know, heavy and all the rest of it. Had to get this ice going. [sigh] Yeah. [long pause]
AH : What was it like being in Germany?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What was it like being in Germany after they’ve been bombed? And then you...
WB : It was all right in Germany, they, they weren’t hostile at all. They were just mixed up, ordinary people. It wasn’t their fault we bombed them and they bombed us. But Hamburg, was a bit of a mess. Nice town Hamburg. Yeah. Yeah, we had a nice holiday in Hamburg. We went down to, oh, Ruhpolding, had a nice holiday there. And then we went down, we went down as far as Venice once on holiday. It was very good. We went down on, went down in the bus to, right in the corner of Germany and then we got a bus down to Venice. Four, four, five days in Venice. And we were way up in the mountains, and over, about a mile away there were two or three big American lorries. They were letting big black balloons up, and they were going up and over. And the bus driver stopped and everybody was looking, and I said: ‘I know [emphasis], I know what they are.’ I used to take The Reader’s Digest and there’d been an article in there about this lot, and when the wind blew in a certain direction over from Germany to Czechoslovakia, they used to let these big black balloons up full of leaflets and they would drift over to Czechoslovakia and drop all the leaflets down. So I told, there’s a man there who spoke English and I said: ‘I know what they are.’ And I told him. ‘Oh’ And they said: ‘Oh, the Englishman, he knows.’ [chuckle] They was alright. We had a nice holiday in Venice. You did, didn’t you?
PH: Yes. What was your nickname in the RAF? Was it Abdul?
WB : Abdul. Yeah, they called me Abdul. ‘Cos when we, I was always out in the sun. I was the colour of that table. And, when we got to, we went from Egypt, they moved us to Iraq, and got there, and of course, they all called me Abdul. And we had a, one of the locals, he looked after the bungalow, kept things clean, made the bed and all the rest of it. He said to me one day, I wonder. He says: ‘Why you in Royal Egypt? You Egyptian?’ I said: ‘I’m not a bloody Egyptian. I’m an Englishman.’ He said: ‘You black, why they call you Abdul!’ [loud cough]. And I never convinced him I was Englishman. Never. Oh dear, dear, dear. Oh, we had fun. Better out now [unclear].
PH : Did you have much entertainment off the base, at the village halls?
WB : No. [door bell and distant voices.] Father he joined the army as a bugler boy, and in the war he was called up to Air Ministry, and they said: ‘We want to put you in charge of, of a training squadron, you know a transport, a training squadron, and we’ll up you to squadron leader.’ And the man who was dealing with, he said: ‘You were my bugler boy when you joined the Army, weren’t ya?’ [laughter] Anyway, dad, he did very well as squadron leader. Yeah, he worked hard. [sigh] Did 41 years all together in the army, RFC and Army and Air Force. He was number 150 in the RFC. Very senior. Still not the first day and his brother was number 700, he joined up the next day. [chuckle] My brother did 22 years, my sister did four and a half in the Army and then she, she was civil servant with the, with the Navy in the Admiralty. And she, she was the personal private secretary to the Director Technical Polaris. Very, very important job and but if any of her admirals where going anywhere, she had to arrange all the transport, the right flags and, this, that and the other. And, and one of them one day said: ‘We’ve never seen you at one of our launches. You know when they launch one of the Polaris.’ She said: ‘I’ve never been invited.’ He said: ‘You will come to the next one.’ So the next launching, they laid a staff car on for Betty, picked her up, took her to the station, first class travel up to Barrow, entertained her, put her in a hotel, staff car took her out to the launching, came back, and when, when she left they, they gave her a carriage clock, and on the side of it was something-or-other : To Miss Betty Bullock [coughing] Aminu Ensis[?] to make the war work to seven admirals, and there were all these admirals names, and that was, that was good. She did a very good job with these admirals. Seven. Twenty-one years she was an admiral’s secretary. They took her out to a nice posh dinner and saw her off well. So we did our share. I did 34 years. My brother did 22 years. My dad did 41. And my sister did, oh heavens only knows how many. [sigh] Yeah.
AH : What did your dad do in the First World War?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What did your dad do in the First World War?
WB :` Oh, he was in the Flying Corps. Yeah, he was an Engineer Officer with the Flying Corps – Number 1 5 0. They did all sorts of things.
PH : What sort of planes would he be working on?
WB : [growls] Well, I know De Havilland something or other. Bristol fighters, Sopwith Camels and all sorts of thing. There was one there that had a rotary engine and instead of the engine being still and everything going round, the crankshaft was bolted and the engine went round it. No, no rotary. The engine went round [stutters]. You wouldn’t imagine it, would you? Anyway it did.
PH : What year did you join the RAF?
WB : I joined up in ’32 and I came out in ’66. Yeah. I went everywhere from AC1 to flight lieutenant and back again. [Long sniff] Oh, I wasn’t all that happy with being a flight lieutenant, I don’t know, I, anyway I ditched my commission and I went back and I was a warrant officer for about 13 years, and I was much happier as a warrant officer. You didn’t have big mess bills and expenses at all. You, you were well off. [coughing] No, I usually had jobs in charge of workshops and it was a real, you know, nice job. Workshop jobs. Where the work was. [coughing and long pause].
AH : What did you do after the war? After you left the RAF, sorry?
WB : I came out the year I went down to Horncastle Rural District Council and the rating department, collected money and all this that and other. And then did that for about eight years. And then when this reorganising took place, I got moved to East Lindsey District Council, and oh, oh I don’t know I did paperwork all the time. Yeah.
PH : It wasn’t particularly a cosy job at times though. You got followed, didn’t you, one time –
WB : Eh?
PH : You got followed because you got money in the car. Didn’t –
WB : Oh. no, I didn’t get stopped.
PH : No, but didn’t somebody follow you all day.
WB : Well, that were coming back from Wragby. Somebody once said to me: ‘I used to collect rent at Wragby and you got several hundred pound in your bag.’ And somebody once said to me. No, no it was me wife, she was in the dentist was down the dentist in the town there, and they were talking this and said: ‘You know when that rent collector goes over the level crossing at 4 o’clock’, they said, ‘He’s got an awful lot of money in that bag.’ And Mary told me, she said: ‘Oh.’ Anyway, the next time I came out when I went over the level crossing, and there was a car, there was a van there. I thought: Oh. So I put my foot down and came back about 70 mile per hour and I told the boss and he said: ‘Right, so from then on, someone was seen to see me in the afternoon and take a big bag off me with most of the money. So they didn’t, I didn’t have all that money to people to pinch off me, but I wasn’t very happy with people following me. ‘Cos they said: ‘If every you’re attacked, just let the money go, don’t argue.’ I said: ‘No, not if I been collecting it, bugger it. I’m not let them have it.’ [chuckles] So, anyway, we didn’t have any more bother. But it makes you wonder, don’t it?
[long pause]
PH : You seen a lot of changes in aircraft design, haven’t you?
WB: Yeah [sniff] yeah. The one, the one before the Lancaster was a Manchester. It had two, two big engines, 3,000 horsepower engines. Two. There were, the, the Merlins two like that and the [unclear] Vulcan and it had [stuttering] X’s. Vulture, anyway they were the two big cross engines and it only had a single tail rudder. The old Manchester it was useless as an aeroplane. It was slow and it was cumbersome. It didn’t carry much big load. Anyway, they soon turned it into a Lancaster, and it was a marvellous aeroplane. Marvellous aeroplane. They made 700, 7,000 odd in the war. Yeah, it was the best plane that came out of the war. [inaudible]
PH : What’s the one after the Lancaster?
WB : Lincoln. A bit, bit, bit bigger. Four bladed props against the Lancasters three. Yeah, I think it had bigger, didn’t have a Griffin engine, I think the Lincoln. A bigger engine. And it was a big aeroplane. It was East, erh, Waddington. [pause] Yes [long pause]
AH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Pardon?
AH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Do what?
PH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Well I don’t think so, I can’t think of much. No, no not much to do with the RAF. There are things not to do.
AH : How do you feel about the way Bomber Command was treated after the war?
WB : Does she what?
PH : How do you feel that Bomber Command was treated after the war?
WB : Well...
PH : ... with Bomber Harris.
WB : Bomber Harris, they didn’t treat him well. They - everybody got a knighthood, but not, not Bomber. They, they, they ignored him. They didn’t treat him right. He did a good job, Bomber Harris. They said he was brutal, but he only did his job. He just said: ‘If you can’t get the factories, get the people that who work in them.’ Well, fair enough, but you can’t blame him for that. He got these bombers going. No, he wasn’t treated well, Bomber Harris – ha [long sigh] There’s a man just died, Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham. And he was down at East Kirkby, and John Chatterton, he had to test pilots, and he said: ‘I remember this bloke Michael Beetham coming through, and he was too good, he said he had, had to rate him above average, cos he’s way above average.’ And he finished up Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham. And I met him, nice man, met him down at East Kirkby. Yeah. And there were two ex-apprentices, got cadetship and went to Cranwell. They both finished up as Air Marshalls. Yeah. Some did well, very well.
PH : What, what were you days at Houlton like?
WB : Eh?
PH : What were your days at Houlton like?
WB : All right.
PH : What were you know as?
WB : Oh, Trenchard Sprouts [chuckle] Yeah. Oh, it was a good life, yeah, yeah it was a good life. You worked hard, but they trained you well. But they always said: ‘If a bloke was ever trained at Houlton, he could walk straight into a job at Rolls Royce. That was that Houlton training, you can go straight to Rolls Royce as a workman. [sniff and sigh] Yeah. Three years. Jolly good.
PH : Who was Trenchard?
WB : Eh?
PH : Who was Trenchard?
WB : Well, he was a General in the First War and then he, he started the, more-or-less, started the Air Force, as such, Flying Corps. General Lieutenant, General Sir whatever his name Trenchard, and he started the apprentice scheme, the apprentice’s scheme; hence the name Trenchard Sprouts. He was a good man, Trenchard. Not a big man. Yes he started the RAF. [loud crash and bang] Ohi.
AH : Well, thank you very much.
WB : Pardon?
AH : Thank you.
PH : Yeah, well call that -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with William Bullock
Creator
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Anna Hoyles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-30
Format
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00:57:49 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABullockWEJ151030, PBullockWEJ1601
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
William Bullock was born in Marshfield in Gloucestershire in September 1916 and joined the Royal Air Force as an apprentice in 1932. He was posted to Egypt for training - after serving in the Middle East he joined Bomber Command as an engineer. After serving at RAF East Kirkby, William moved to 106 Squadron at RAF Metheringham before joining Pathfinders at RAF Conningsby, looking after and maintaining 40 Lancasters. William was in charge of moving aircraft around from location to location and tells about his role as a technical adjutant and supplying Merlin engines for the attack on the Tirpitz. He also describes his technical innovations and of his meeting with Guy Gibson. William tells about his post war family and service life, with details on his posting in Sylt, Germany where he saw the extent of bombing damage. He also elaborates on Hugh Trenchard, Michael Beetham, and Arthur Harris.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Germany--Sylt
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
North Africa
Iraq
Iraq--Mosul
106 Squadron
bombing
FIDO
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
Pathfinders
RAF Coningsby
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Metheringham
Tirpitz
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/516/8748/PHatchM1501.2.jpg
d8ea507c92b2911874f3a4250ee60fa2
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/516/8748/AHatchM150730.1.mp3
22d3ce0e673b6b1303951b257282fcc8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hatch, Maurice
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Hatch
Description
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An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Maurice Hatch (137372 Royal Air Force). He served with 97 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MJ: It's on now.
MH: My name is Hatch, Maurice Edward Hatch. My rank in the RAF at the end of the war was a squadron leader. [background noise] I was seventeen when war broke out and I volunteered for air service with the RAF and when I went before the committee who considered these things, I was asked what was my position in civil life and I said that I was an article clerk training to be a chartered accountant, whereupon I was immediately designated potentially as a navigator. I never had the chance as being trained as a pilot. On the whole, I think probably in the long run I didn't regret it. I actually went into the air force in about October of 1941 and after initial period of square bashing in some of the delightful holiday resorts of this country like Torquay, Brighton and Eastbourne I went on my flying training in South Africa. I sailed from Liverpool and I sailed in great luxury in a converted Dutch meat ship, from which the covers over the holds had been removed and down which a rickety wooden staircase had been mounted down which we all came. Then, of course, having the exalted rank lowest form of animal life and ordinary airmen and with a pack on my chest, a steel helmet on the back and the big pack on the on the back and you went down until my steel helmet was touching the back of the man in front until effectively the hold of that meat was a mash of human beings. Having got to the point where you couldn't get another mouse in, they said that was enough. They then tried to sort out the sleeping accommodation which was hammocks from the ceiling, so close together that they were touching and I never did get one. The trip took six and a half weeks, I spent that six and a half weeks sleeping on a straw palliasse under the mess table, and life was hard to say the least of it. We were three days stationary, moored outside Freetown in the hot season which was almost unbearable and we eventually landed in Durban. I won't tell you all the details of the journey because they are sordid in the extreme, suffice to say that I hope I never get nearer to hell than that! For two or three days we were under canvas on Durban racecourse and then we went to East London on the east coast of South Africa, south of Durban. And I was there for almost a year doing my initial navigational training. We were very lucky, myself and two other people with, with whom I'd joined up, we were, if you like, befriended by a family of Scottish origin who lived in East London and the husband was in fact the Union Castle representative in East London, Union Castle being the most powerful body in South Africa at that time, they ran the weekly ship to Cape Town before the war and owned most of the principal hotels including, of course, the famous Mount Nelson in Cape Town. The training period in South Africa from a flying viewpoint was not really particularly noteworthy, what was more noteworthy was the ability to live on fruit and food which we hadn't seen in this country for a long time, and also, not quite so fortunately, the rather strong but extremely cheap South African brandy. I eventually finished the training after about a year and went to Cape Town to board a ship home. In the interim whilst I was there, the husband of the family who had befriended us had been promoted and had become the Union Castle's principal agent [background noise] in Cape Town and was therefore in Cape Town finding a house to which he could move his family. He was staying at the Mount Nelson Hotel and therefore my last night before going home, I went to dinner in the famous Mount Nelson Hotel which was a fairly unforgettable experience, particularly at that time going back as I was to wartime rationing. I was lucky in that on the return I was on an American trooper which was not in convoy and so went very much faster and we we got home in about two and a half weeks, and the only misfortune was that for some administrative reason which I have never understood, the fact that I had been commissioned had not reached South Africa and I therefore went home as a sergeant and regretted the fact that I didn't have the officer's quarters. However, that was rectified when I got home and I went to Harrogate which was the usual place where aircrew were accommodated on their return from Canada, South Africa, Rhodesia, as it then was, and the very few from the United States, where effectively all of this flying training had been carried out. After some leave, I started on the further long process in the training channel which included, of course, the crewing up and we formed into a crew. Strangely enough, that was done largely by us ourselves rather than by any officials. We sort of went around and tried to decide people with whom we thought we might get on and in effect established a crew ourselves, and this we did. I was in fact the only commissioned officer in the crew; all the others were sergeants or flight sergeants. We went through the various stages, going from Wellingtons after a short period, we were onto Stirlings and then eventually onto Lancasters, and my first posting to a squadron, an operating squadron, was to 630 Squadron which was at East Kirby in Lincolnshire, and it was a very sudden and very marked experience of the reality of war after the joy of South Africa, where, frankly, the war seemed a long way away. And we finished up playing tennis and swimming rather than worrying too much about flying. On arrival at 630 Squadron, it was at the time when the raids in Berlin were going on almost nightly, and at that time, and maybe at all times I don't know but certainly at that time, it had become the practise that when a new crew, a sprog crew arrived on the squadron with no experience, the captain of the crew, the pilot, went first as a second dicky with an experienced crew, and we had arrived on the squadron at about ten-thirty in the morning, by mid-afternoon ops had been announced and we subsequently discovered it was on Berlin. My pilot was assigned as a second dicky to an experienced crew and off he went and did not return. He must have had the shortest tour of operations of anybody, one take off and one landing, the landing being by parachute. I'm delighted to say he survived the war and came through but he was of course a prisoner of war in that intermediate period. I was therefore left with the remainder of my crew within twenty-four hours of having arrived on the squadron of going away again with a delightful RAF expressions being the head of a headless crew which always struck me as an oddish [?] phrase. We went back to conversion unit, and this I suppose was one of my lucky periods during my life, I always find it slightly guilty or referring to another man's misfortune as being one of my luckies, but we linked up on our return to conversion unit to an experienced New Zealand pilot. If my memory's right, he was then a flight lieutenant, he had done a tour earlier in the war and had been instructing and had now come back for a second tour and we had no captain, he had no crew, and so the obvious thing was to put us together, and this was very lucky. The strange part about this was that he was a tough, back-woods, New Zealander whose language was frequently fairly colourful, but he had a strangely sentimental streak because his first tour had been on 97 Squadron, he was desperately anxious that this second tour should also be on 97 Squadron. The only problem was that in between the two dates, the Pathfinder Force had been formed and 97 Squadron had become one of the Pathfinder squadrons. Generally speaking, people, in quotes, volunteered to go on the Pathfinder Force, although I think frequently it was a form of volunteering which usually involved the twisting of an arm or two. But it was after seven or eight operations had been successfully completed and the crew had broadly shown itself as being competent. This, of course, was not the case; my New Zealand captain’s name was Smith, and he was always called Smithy by us, and he, of course, was an experienced pilot, but he had a crew who had never done an operation in their lives, and particularly a navigator, i.e. me, who had never been on an operation in his life. Somehow, he succeeded in getting us onto 97 Squadron; how he did it, whose arm he twisted, I have never known, but the fact remains that we did. Accordingly, I started once again by going then for, I think it was four or five weeks’ intensive Pathfinder navigation training at the PFF headquarters, PFF had become 8 Group, and the headquarters were outside Huntingdon, and for the moment I’ve forgotten its name.
MJ: Wyton.
MH: Wyton. And, well, I, I obviously successfully dealt with the specialist training because, at the end of the period, we were appointed, we were posted to 97 Squadron, which had just about turned up at Coningsby, having previously been somewhere else which I’ve moment forgotten, and I suppose the good fortune of that alignment with Smithy very quickly showed itself, because our very first operational trip as a new crew, we were attacked by two ME-109s, and I hate to think what, with an entirely inexperienced pilot and crew, might have happened. As it was, Smithy put us into a power dive and we successfully escaped, and I always remember, as we, nose went down and, of course, everything, the charts, the protractors, the dividers, the pencils, everything went all over the place, and all I remember was Smithy shouting ‘Never mind about the bloody charts, tell me if there are any hills around here!’ I don’t know how he thought I was going to do that, because of course the, the map showing such things as hills had gone with all the rest. However, eventually I did find it and told him that there were no hills, but by then it was too late, because fortunately there was none, and we were on our way home, fairly low, waking up a few French along the way. Well, after that, we had a comparatively inexperienced and exciting time, fortunately, the usual little problems of sometimes getting splattered by shrapnel from bombs exploding around one, but nothing really terrible except, I suppose, we, one, one, one night, a hydraulic pipeline was severed, and it wasn’t quite known whether or not the undercarriage was going to lock down, and so we were diverted to the diversionary airport at Manston in Kent, which, strangely enough, was a place to which I became quite attached and very accustomed later after the war. Smith finished his tour, his second tour, after twenty ops, and we were still there. The usual arrangement in the Pathfinder Force was that, instead of doing the normal stint of thirty ops in a first tour, then a period off and twenty on a second tour, one was encouraged to do forty-five ops through immediately, one, ah, all in one go, on Pathfinder Force, presumably because of the additional training and experience which one had gained in Pathfinder operations. I had by then become reasonably accustomed to my duties with H2S as it was then, the early form of radar, I suppose the predecessor of many of the systems with which we are accustomed now in our motorcars or boats or anything like that. By today’s standards, it was fairly primitive, but on the whole, it worked, and I effectively did forty-four operations, finishing my forty-fourth just about at the end of the war, and I think I’m right in saying that I failed to find the target first time only once in those forty-four operations. Again, we had one or two bits of excitement; by then, I was flying with the squadron commander because, when Smithy had finished his second tour, once again, we found ourselves as a crew without a pilot, and the squadron commander had just completed a tour and had gone, and he, his successor, a group captain, Group Captain Peter Johnson, the Pathfinder Force generally had ranks which were one up from the general Bomber Command so that, whereas most bomber squadrons were commanded by wing commander, Pathfinder squadrons generally commanded by a group captain, the flight commanders were wing commanders whereas usually they were squadron leaders, and leaders (wireless, navigation, gunnery and so on) were usually squadron leaders instead of flight lieutenants. And, of course, with the passage of time and people finishing their tours and, sadly, finishing their tours in other ways, meant that promotion was fairly quick and eventually found myself as a squadron leader, acting squadron leader, anyway. And I suppose at the age of twenty-three, briefing Pathfinder squadrons, it was good experience which has stood one good in civil life after the war. Only one thing, well, I suppose two things, really, stick in my mind: one is that we were coming back one evening from very long flight, somewhere way over in, I, Stet – somewhere in Poland, we’d been airborne for about nine hours and were running really rather short of fuel, and it was foggy, good old Lincolnshire fog, and we couldn’t get in at Coningsby. At Metheringham, which was close by, there had been installed a system which was called FIDO, which took the form of a, a channel being put alongside the runway and filled with aircraft spirit of some sort, and which I, in foggy conditions, it was lit, the idea being that the heat generated would disperse the fog. Unfortunately, the people who did it forgot the fact that the, the fire itself would have created more smoke, and we had problems. We went ‘round twice and couldn’t find the, the, the ‘drome, the –
MJ: Flare path?
MH: [background noises] I was saying that my captain had considerable experience in finding the flight path, we went ‘round twice and by then the fuel was running dangerously slow, ah, short, and fortunately, we turned on a third time and both the pilot and the flight engineer, more or less at the same time, just got a glimpsed, glimpse of the flight path and Peter Johnson very cleverly (not easy on a Lancaster) effectively side-slipped onto the air, airfield. We had a very bumpy landing but at any rate, we did get down in one piece. We subsequently discovered that part of the difficulty was not only the smoke created by FIDO itself but the plane that had come in immediately before us, or had tried to come in, had failed and had crashed right through the woodland alongside the, the aerodrome and all members of the crew were killed. So that was not a – it wasn’t the best of evenings when we got back in, in the mess that evening. My, my skipper, my pilot, Group Captain Peter Johnson, with typical sort of British stiff upper lip, when I think one member of my crew said to him as we were getting out, ‘Well, that was a bit dicey,’ and he said [blustering received-pronunciation] ‘Oh, it was alright, you know,’ and, but in fact, subsequently back in the mess, he did tell me, tell me that he was pretty worried and that, had we not seen the runway on that particular moment, he was seriously considering turning out to sea and trying to land in the shallows of the sea, so I’m, I’m glad the smoke cleared enough for us to get by. Apart from that, there were very few moments of great excitement. One memorable moment, not really a moment of excitement is that, in the Pathfinder operations, the Lancasters, the Lancaster Pathfinders were equipped with RT and WT; the main force was equipped only with WT. The master bombers, who were in Mosquitoes, they had only RT, and they were people like Cheshire and Tate and Gibson and names such as that, and on this particular night, we – one of the Lancaster Pathfinders was doing the job as link aircraft (this was passing on WT the RT instructions received from the master bomber), and the Pathfinder Lancasters used to take it in turn to be the link aircraft, in effect flying ‘round and ‘round the target passing the messages from the master bomber. Not the most popular of tasks, needless to say, but on this particular night, we were, well, my skipper was, in effect, the, the second string, which was the man who was the link, was very often, or very often at any rate, the senior officer in the Lancasters who was on the raid was the deputy commander, just in case the master bomber had mechanical trouble and had to turn back or had been shot down en route, and we were the, the second string, if you like, and, and we had a message from the master bomber saying that the raid was successful, radio home and go home, and go home we did, only to find out later that the master bomber had not got home, and the master bomber was no less than Guy Gibson. So it’s not exactly a claim to fame, it’s the most inappropriate form of words, but I suppose it is true to say that I and the other six members of the crew were the last seven people to hear Guy Gibson speak. I’ve never really, I don’t think most people have ever really fully satisfied themselves as to what happened to him; various rumours, most of them silly, but I’m, I’ve always been told (I can’t prove this), I’ve always been told that it was a complete wreck, the aircraft was on fire and everything was burned, and that the only recognition was that a sock was found with a laundry mark on it and this was Gibson’s. Whether that’s true or not, I don’t know, but that was the story I’d always been told. So, that more or less finished my flying career. I, I went on a couple of daylight raids which I didn’t much enjoy; somehow, I didn’t think the Lancaster was, was fitted for formation flying as were the Americans. And I, I don’t, I don’t think they were terribly successful and they weren’t particularly enjoyable. At the, the days immediately on the end of the war, most of us were, to some extent, occupied in bringing back prisoners of war from airfields in Belgium and Holland, poor devils had been up to several years in prisoner of war camps and had been brought out to the coast and were being picked up. Two things remind me of that always: my good skipper, the group captain, who I may say was a first class man (he finished the war DSO, DFC, AFC and thoroughly deserved it all), we didn’t see each other after the war for almost forty years, and then by pure accident, I was, I’d been a member of the MCC for a great many years, and was one night at home looking through the annual accounts of the MCC, and there was a list of people who had been members of the MCC for fifty years and who were now called life members and no longer had a subscription to pay, and about the third in the list was Group Captain P.W. Johnson, DSO, DFC, AFC, and I said to my wife, ‘Well, there can only be one member like that!’ And at that time, my firm, I was of course by then a, a qualified chartered accountant and a partner in my firm, and we were then acting auditors of the MCC, so I said to my partner, who dealt with the MCC problems, would he let me know next time he went to Lords [?] for anything, would he go into the office and see if he could find the address of Group Captain Johnson, which he did, and a week or two later, I found out and got back in touch with Peter Johnson and we thereafter saw each other roughly every six or seven weeks. He was a good deal older, he was fourteen years older than me, and by then he was therefore he was eighty or eighty-ish, and we used to take him out. He was, he was on his own, he’d lost his wife, he was a rather lonely old man in many ways. My wife, I had met during the war, she was a WAF, a Scots girl, and we met, strangely, I think immediate, immediately after the war in Europe finished, because very quickly, the operational squadrons were being disbanded, people were being sent away and all sorts of things. Peter Johnson was sent almost immediately to join a party which was being put together by Bomber Harris to go to Germany and inspect at first hand the damage which Bomber Command had done, and so he left the squadron very quickly, and I didn’t then see anything of him for forty years. I greatly regret it, actually, the loss of that forty years ‘cause he was such a first-class chap, and we had many a happy meeting in the years between our meeting up again and when he, he died. He died in a way which suited him well, because he was then living in an old people’s home not very far from where we live, and so we, we were able to see him fairly frequently. He had always had a, an eye for the girls; it was well known in Coningsby that he had a girlfriend in Newark and another one in Boston, and his son had been married about five times, and I remember him telling me once that, after the fifth marriage, that if he, if he got rid of that wife, Peter Johnson was going to marry her himself ‘cause she was jolly nice, and she had actually come to visit him in the old people’s home. He was still driving, he’d taken her back to the station to catch the train back to where they were living, he parked his car outside the, the place where he was living, he had a long-ish walk into the front door, he collapsed halfway on that walk, and before anybody could really do anything about it, he was dead. So it was a suitable and fitting end, I don’t think he would have regretted it. But that ended, substantially ended, my air force career, because I still had a fairly high demob number and because I was fairly experienced with forty-four ops behind me with Pathfinder Force, I was allocated to a thing called Tiger Force, which some bright spark at the Air Ministry had decided that we should go to assist our brave allies, the Americans, in the Far East, and that we should try to operate the successful Pathfinder technique which had been operated in Europe. I mean, it was a crazy idea ‘cause it was quite impossible doing the thing; it one thing being on a, a pre-war, tarmacadamed airfield with permanent buildings and every sort of electronic communication then available. It was a little different being stuck in Okinawa or somewhere like that. However, that was, I was to be so-called wing navigation officer and was actually on leave when the Japanese war ended, and so I phoned the Air Ministry and said, ‘Well, you don’t really, seriously mean to go ahead with this, do you?’ And there was a bit of umming and ahing at the other end, but I did eventually – I was told that they would be in touch with me and a couple of days later, there was a telephone call to say that the thing was off but I was to report back to Coningsby, and I spent the rest of my time as station navigation officer at Coningsby, and I left the, the squadrons left Coningsby about a fortnight before I was demobbed, they’ve were moved to Hemswell in order that the runways at Coningsby could be lengthened for the V Bombers which were then coming on stream. I got in touch and said, ‘Look, I’ve been in Coningsby two and a half years, you’re surely not gonna send me away to Hemswell, I have another fortnight to go,’ so again, there was umming and ahing and said ‘No,’ but I had to stay at Coningsby the other fortnight, they didn’t let me go a fortnight early, but that ended my work, wartime career, if ‘career’ is the right word. Terrible, war’s a terrible thing, awful, awful times one remembers. One remembers times of great strain, times of danger, but equally times when, very often before leaving for a flight, the, the, the whole feeling oneself was flowing, there was a, there was a, a scare, I suppose a scare, a fright; on the other hand, there was a feeling of something quite exciting was going to happen. It was a strange feeling and it was very different when you came back, I think feelings there differed very much from person to person, and I think I’d – probably as good a note to end on, end on as any is that I think that it’s amply demonstrated why the men who did the sculpture in the Bomber Command memorial in Green Park, where he has the sculpture of a crew of Lancasters coming in after the end of an operation, and, whilst my eyesight, I’m afraid, these days is far from good, and I, I really was not able to recognise it, my wife always tells me that the expressions on the face of the seven people were quite remarkable and that the, the sculptor had really done a marvellous job. And it is a marvellous, marvellous memorial; I was lucky to be one of those still alive and able to attend its opening by the Queen, and those of us who were there and who had actually operated during the war were asked to line up at the end along the, effectively, the edge of the Green Park parallel with Piccadilly, and the Prince of Wales and his wife came along and shook hands with all of us individually, one by one. I think he missed his lunch in consequence, but I imagine he didn’t mind. I think that hopefully is, in brief, my story. I hope it may be of use and interest to somebody in the future.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command, I’d like to thank Squadron Leader Hatch, at his home in Croydon, for his recording on the date of the 30th July 2015. I thank you very much. Bye-bye.
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Interview with Maurice Hatch
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-30
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AHatchM150730
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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00:38:07 audio recording
Description
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Maurice Hatch was training as a chartered accountant when volunteered for pilot but was instead enlisted as a navigator. After initial training at Torquay, Brighton and Eastbourne he went to South Africa for a year. Upon returning he crewed up at Harrogate followed to a post at RAF East Kirby (630 Squadron) flying Wellingtons, Stirlings and Lancasters, mainly on operations to Berlin. Then he went on a five-week intensive Pathfinder navigation training at 8 Group headquarters, followed by a post with 97 Squadron at RAF Coningsby where he flew 44 operations. After the end of the war in Europe he was sent to the Far East with the Tiger Force as wing navigation officer, but the war ended before he started operational duties. Maurice returned at RAF Coningsby as station navigation officer until demobbed. He then became a qualified chartered accountant and a partner of his firm. Maurice talks about military ethos, prisoner of war, bailing out, operations, anti-aircraft fire, evasive manoeuvres, Guy Gibson, reunions, the Bomber Command memorial in Green Park, meeting the Queen and other dignitaries.
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South Africa
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Devon
England--Sussex
England--Torquay
England--Brighton
England--Harrogate
Germany
Germany--Berlin
England--Eastbourne (East Sussex)
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Pending revision of OH transcription
630 Squadron
8 Group
97 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
crewing up
demobilisation
Elizabeth II, Queen of Great Britain (1926 - 2022)
FIDO
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
Me 109
memorial
navigator
Pathfinders
prisoner of war
promotion
RAF Coningsby
Stirling
Tiger force
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/525/8759/PNorringtonAW2201.2.jpg
7686919a7015466f48da7f5869802ecc
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/525/8759/ANorringtonAWJ160827.2.mp3
984821193f71d0d37a1129cf4387f750
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Norrington, John
Alfred W Norrington
A W Norrington
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Norrington, AW
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer John Norrington (1876617 Royal Air Force). He flew operations with 101 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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JM. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin, the interviewee is Mr Alfred Norrington although Alfred is often known as John and will be referred to by that name in this interview. The interview is taking place at Mr Norrington’s home in Bramhall, Cheshire. John I wonder if I could ask you to start by telling us a little bit about your life before you joined the Royal Air Force?
JN. Well my life as a young lad, I can remember always wanted to be on the engineering side. I was always keen on pulling pieces, things to pieces and putting them back together again and then oh, the war started and we was under the bomber, German bomber run to London. At night times we’d hear the bombs come down and then we would be in the shelter and I was growing up into the war area as it might be. The bombs were dropping close to us and I used to think to myself ‘when I grow up I am going to get back at you.’ We’d lie in bed at night time, we’d hear the droning of the bombers and the synchronised sort of drone ‘woom, woom’ and we could tell it was Germans. Anyway er I decided I was working away, going to work and I wanted to go join the Air Force. I was working, I was in a reserved occupation, lorry driving and two of my mates came home on leave one was in the Air Force and one was in the Navy. So we decided to go to London for a day out. I thought meself overnight, I’m going to join up, I am going to volunteer at Romford on our way to London. So the following day we got the bus and we got off the bus at Romford. And I went into the volunteering, enlisting place at Romford and I said I wanted to join, I wanted to volunteer for aircrew in, on Lancaster bombers. So they took my name and address and then we continued to London and had a good day. The following day I went to work and my boss said to me ‘where did you get to yesterday?’ I said ‘I took the day off and I went to London and I volunteered to join the Air Force.’ He said ‘Oh alright then.’ About three weeks later, I went home, went to the office for my orders and my boss said ‘I have had a letter from the Air Force about you.’ I said ‘Mmm.’ He said ‘They were asking me if I am willing to let you go.’ So I said ‘Well I hope you said yes.’ So he said ‘I know you want to go, so I have said yes.’ Fast forward about another five weeks and then I got me calling up papers to go to Cardington for medical, oh I was successful there and then it was about another week or two before I got me final papers to go to London to join the Air Force and be kitted out. From there we went to ITW. It was, it was two, one was at near Bridlington and then another one we went up, oh up north, up north near. Anyway, I went through the ITW work and then after that, mind you we had a leave in between and from then we went to St Athans and.
JM. ITW is initial training?
JN. Wing. Yes.
JM. Could you tell us what you did on ITW?
JN. Well, it was mainly discipline, I had to talk about the Air Force er managing of it, the leave, the respects of what you were doing. It was mainly disciplining young men, you know to be subservient to orders from people with authority which was very nice. I thoroughly enjoyed it and then I came home for another leave after then and then from there we went to straight to St Athans. Then for to do Air Force place at St Athans.
JM. St Athan in South Wales?
JN. South Wales yes.
JM. And that was for engineering training?
JN. That was for the engineering training and then we had sort of, in the hangar we had tables. In the hangar there must have been about ten to twenty tables each with an Air Force corporal around each table and around each table there was about four sometimes six students us us, ourselves, you see. And then we would take notes we‘d have maybe a week on electrical systems, we‘d have a week on pneumatics, we’d have a week on flying controls, we’d have a time on er automatic pilots and we’d have time on fuel flows, fuel systems, emergency fuels. Everything regarding the flying of the Lancaster and also you would have emergency drills and then also you would have certain days of physical training. You could do what you wished, whether it was boxing in the gym, running, out running I used to like running, things like that. Weight lifting and then you would go in and then you would follow it up with another subject. Er, you got, the leave occasionally you got to go home and then after well, after what was is it about nine months, oh quite a while, eight to nine months at St Athans we was really trained and then we had the examination and this was really, really serious. But right from the word go I have always been interested in anything mechanical and even remembering when I went for my interview er about joining the Air Force. I sat before a board there was five Air Force officers there and they were asking me what I wanted. I said ‘Engineering, I want to be a flight engineer, nothing else, I am going for that.’ And they asked me, one or two questions, how to time an engine. Well with working on the lorries in the, the garage at home before I joined up, used to, we’d do all our own repairs and I quoted how to time a petrol engine, right from the word go, the sequence of getting the cam, the distributor right, the er valve timings right, things like that and the chap who was leading said ‘That’s very good thank you very much.’ I said ‘Also do you want to know how to time a diesel engine?’ [laugh] He said ‘No’ he said ‘we won’t have that’ he said, ‘there is no diesel engines on aircraft yet.’ But anyway, anyway I was accepted, I got a, not boasting I come out top on the passing out parade and I had to lead it. The flight sergeant of our squad who was just behind me, just to the left. There was, there was sixty on the little squad what I was leading. We had the parade round the St Athan‘s parade ground, there was the air commodore on the flag, under the flag pole to take the salute and I am marching out in front. I was about six paces in front of my squad who were eight across and about twelve back things like that. So we were walking away and the sergeant who was walking just behind me instructing me, he said ‘When you get level with the, the platform that he’s on’ he said, ‘Order eyes squad, number one squad eyes right.’ So I said ‘All right then.’ So we are marching away there and I was leaving it a little bit late and he went, ‘Eyes right, eyes right.’ Out of the corner of his mouth. Anyway I gave the order ‘Eyes right’ and took the salute and the rest it went off like nice. I came out after we passed out we got leave and er I came home and I was telling my father that I led the parade, he said ‘Oh good heavens if I had known’ he said, ‘your mum and I would have been up there on the train.’ Anyway that was work and then from there I went up to Sandtoft I think it was and from there, there was, there was er, what were we doing? [pause] put it off just one second, tape wasting. Erm, talking away about the engineer and oh I have forgot the sequence of it now. We was, there was about twelve engineers, or temporary flight engineers in training went to Sandtoft and then we used to get out onto the airfield and we go on the aircraft, on the Lancasters that were still training and the pilots that were flying them were also training. We used to go on as a spare bod as just for the experience of going up in the Lanc, the Lancaster. The first time I went up it was quite an experience. I had never ever been up in an aeroplane before in my life and I sat in the mid upper turret. It was vacant there wasn’t a mid upper gunner at the time for whatever reason and flying around there and er it was a Czechoslovakian crew or Polish we had loads of those coming over flying. And we flew, we were doing just circuits and bumps and we were going downwind and a bird flew into one of the air intakes on the starboard outer. Of course that was an emergency for the crew, they feathered the engine but the point was they started jabbering in their native language and I thought to myself ‘Good heavens, what is going to happen now?’ Anyway, anyway we went down, they feathered the engine and come in and did a three point, a landing on three engines. So that was my first little experience of what might happen. But I never ever thought that anything was going to happen to me, you know you always thought you was clear of everything. After about five weeks there doing this that and the other, still having discipline and training, map reading and things like that, we sent, got sent to I think Sandtoft, another Sandtoft and from there we, I was crewed up. Went into the sort, one of the huts on the site and all the other crews that had just come in were there to be crewed up. Other crews come in, they had been flying Wellingtons. They got the knack of twin engines you see and they did their training on Wellingtons, but the crews were going on to Lancaster’s. Well they needed then an engineer and that is where they met the engineers. Anyway we was all in this hut and our names were called out and then, ‘Sergeant Norrington’ yes, ‘Sergeant Norrington with Flying Officer James.’ Oh I was just going to say, when I passed out at St Athans and went up to the what’s it’s name school, I can’t quite remember when I got me wing at St Athan, I think I got me wing [telephone rings]. Yeah got me wings and then we got crewed up and, and came out and the crew introduced themselves and things like that. And the following day we went, we were crewed up to go onto a ⸻oh sorry we went at Sandtoft we was converted onto Halifaxes, seemingly the Halifax had a stronger undercarriage than the Lancaster. So everybody going to fly Lancasters had to do their training, I think it was about eight weeks or something like, training on the, on the Halifax. So that was it, while I was waiting when I got to Sandtoft we had to go in and be re crewed, reassessed on the fuel system of the of the; Halifax. Now engines, flying controls everything was identical to the Lancaster which I had learned. Got really into that and then the Halifax had a different size type of system. So we had to learn all about the fuel system, how to change tanks, emergency tanks on, on the Halifax. And that was it, passed out on that and then from there we went over to Hemswell which was the Lancaster Finishing School and that was where we really got into a Lancaster, oh, the feeling was marvellous.
JM. Can I just take you back a bit because you are one of those people who had the opportunity to fly both aeroplanes. How would you assess the Halifax by comparison to the Lancaster.
JN. Oh not a touch, not a touch. It had, the Halifax had quite a few problems, stalling, it used to drop the port wing viciously so you weren’t allowed to try or to learn when you were training, you weren’t allowed to do any stalling moments on the Halifax unless you was above twelve thousand feet, to give you time. But other than that it seemed to be to me, I suppose it was preference with me wanting the Lancaster it seemed to be a lumbering type of aircraft. I wouldn’t say I, I enjoyed the time that I had with it, things like that. I enjoyed the different systems, every time I had to change fuel tanks I had to go back to the middle of the aircraft between the spars. That’s where all the fuel cocks were then go back up again. We passed out we did circuits and bumps and then cross countries, bombing, bombing targets at home and then we were then going to Lanc, Lancaster Finishing School where we got to the Lancaster.
JM. So you were at Hemswell north of Lincoln, not far from Scampton.
JN. Yeah, that’s where the Lanc, where we finished up before we went onto the squadron and er I remember going on, on to, to the Lancaster and there was a second pilot an instructing pilot, ex tour, tour expired pilot who was give, teaching the up comers all of the things like that. So we taxied out and then we pulled onto the runway, we all did all our final checks and then right we’ve got a green from the caravan and so he, he what we used to call him, the spare, not spare, I’ll remember it in a minute. The spare pilot.
AM. Duty pilot?
JN. No, no it will come to me in a minute [laugh]. He said ‘Right, off you go James.’ Lyle the skipper he just opened the throttles right the way up and we did more or less a left hand turn on the engines. So anyway this co-pilot pulled the throttles back, he said ‘Now James,’ he said ‘that’s your first introduction to airscrew torque.’ So he, all right so we taxied around and came back onto the runway that we come on and he said ‘Now when you go when you lead with the throttles, if you open the throttles like that it goes round. The airscrew torque will say goes to the left.’ So what we had to do when we started off, the four throttles like that you started to open up and you finished up with throttles like that. You’d have the port outer flat out, the port inner on three quarters, the starboard inner half - [unclear]what and the starboard outer that would be ticking over. And then the skipper would, we would go forward on a run and then at twenty miles an hour the tail would come up and then the pilot could steer the aircraft with the rudders. By this time then we were about a quarter down the runway and then I as an engineer, used to have my hand behind the throttles and the skipper used to say ‘Full throttle.’ And I would put the stick right way through up to the gate and lock it on with the friction what’s its name. Then we would go up, things like that. The pilot only touched the throttles twice during a flight. The throttles he had command over at the initial run till he got, it was about sixty miles an hour when the tail come up, things like that. And then coming in to land, skipper would just open up until the tail come up and then I would take over, that was it and the rest of the time I would handle all the throttles, the fuel systems, things like that. Then coming into land when we got permission when we come in onto the funnels and it was pancake, then the skipper would have the throttles coming in to until he had got his stall out and then he would throttle back. That was the only two times that the pilot ever touched the throttles, the rest of the time was the engineers.
JM. So you were doing your OTU training at Hemswell, you were learning how to fly the Lancaster.
JN. Yes.
JM. Did you do any of the leaflet raids or any of the other raids?
JN. No.
JM. You never did any?
JN. No, we never come onto that no, we just did the straight, at Hemswell the straight cross country what’s its names – [unclear] things like that and then we went over to the squadron. We was on the Squadron 101 for about three days when we got our first op.
JM. So you were at Ludford Magna?
JN. Yeah we went onto Ludford Magna that’s where we⸻
JM. You were just posted there, it wasn’t a question of choice?
JN. Oh no, no, no choice we just went over, straight over there, I remember getting into the van and all of us. Two or three crews went over there and er, and we did, we did three ops. As I say there was no, looking at that photograph up there in the dark and when we opened the throttles for the first time, the first op and I thought to myself ‘What have I let myself in for here.’ Anyway off we went then down the runway and ah, we did, I think it was four, about four ops and then the skipper called us together and he says ‘They are asking for a volunteer crew to go onto Pathfinders.’ And he said ‘We wondered.’ We just had a coffee outside the NAAFI van, it used to come round, things like that, we’re having a coffee. So all the crew was there, even the special wireless operator, we will talk about him in a moment. Called us together and they said, he said ‘We were asking for volunteer crews.’ But he said ‘I want a hundred per cent agree, agreeance before we go for it.’ Well we all agreed except the wireless operator who was married. He was the only one married amongst us, a Lionel Wright from Screwling [?]near Chatham, he said, oh he said ‘I object to it,’ He said ‘I am quite prepared to do what I signed up to do,’ he said ‘but I have seen what we are going through’., He said ‘so no’, oh, no, he said ‘no, I won’t volunteer for it.’ I forgot to mention the proviso if you could proviso, your tour of operations ceased at three and you went over to do your thirty ops again. For what ever reason that’s what Lionel said, he said ‘I’ve done the three ops’ he said, ‘I know what we are going to go through.’ So he said ‘No I am not going to do that.’ I don’t doubt if those three ops had have counted he might have said yes. But anyway that was it so Lionel said. The skipper said ‘well no, all right.’ He said ‘you know what your mind is and we will take you.’ So we didn’t go on, we stayed on with Ludford Magna. The first op we did it really opened my eyes you know, it is quite frightening to the point of it, you know you just wondered what was going to happen but I was that occupied I always, I never sat down, I always stood up at the front and when I am stood up my head was about the same height as the pilot ‘cause he had a little seat a little bit higher. So it was quite a level talking field if we spoke but it was also through the mike. Even if you spoke through the mike you automatically spoke to the pilot, you see. And then we went on and I managed to take in what I had let myself in for. Er, along the way we had incidents every track, trip, every trip there was something happened what it was happened. Erm, the daylight oh er, the daylight trips, when you do, did the first daylight it certainly opened one’s eyes about on the bombing run. When you think you had all the bombers airport, bombing commands up the east coast right from the north right down to Essex well they were all bombing the same target. They were all leaving at the same time you were about six hundred mile on the coast, they were all going over and they were all converging by the time you get to the target you get all the Bomber Force and hundred to two hundred bombers all over “H hour.” But the first three to four ops in the night we didn’t realise you just went [sneeze] ⸻excuse me⸻ there was only you up there, things like that, things like that. Anyway the first daylight we went, oh it would be frightening there. It was a little incident we was flying along we was on the bombing run and just to our left was eh B Baker from our Squadron, Flying Officer Tibbs. Only – [unclear] like that. Then there was us and then on the bombing run it was quiet. The skipper will not entertain any casual talk, it was strict like that. ‘Cause he said, he always used to say the navigator wants complete silence ‘cause whoever spoke everybody heard you know. He wants complete silence ‘cause he was mustard our navigator. Anyway was flying on at stage one it was Duisburg and along came, off to our starboard wing came a Mosquito things like that and he had a bit of plaque on the side “Associated News Agencies”. Anyway we were going in the bomb aimer, the bomb aimer is going ‘Steady, steady,’ things like that anyway the skipper, and he looked, things like that, the next minute he went up over the top, this Mosquito went up over the top. He came between us and Tibbs, things like that. Anyway as he got to Tibbs we don’t know what happened then. The following day in the paper there was a photograph of this Lancaster dropping its bombs. What’s his name and I think it said ‘The photograph of the war.’ Our special wireless operator David Burnett he, he wrote down to London to the what’s its name about it and asked. They sent two photographs back which I’ve got over there of the bomb and it showed you the bombs coming down from B Baker. It said the photograph of the war in the paper, now if that Mosquito had stayed where it was for another four to five seconds, what have you that photograph would have been Mrs Norrington’s little boy John in the photograph of the war. But anyway he came over and he was right beside Tibbs you could see the air, the roundel, B Baker. And I was having me main ops egg and chips with Sergeant Hewitt his engineer about four to five hours before. It is marvellous how little ones went on like that, so we got that. Another time er it was I forget without referring to it, if I, it was, Guy Gibson was our master not target indicator, not, not, not Pathfinder bomber, bomber, bomber Mosquito. They used to get to the target, mark the target with a parachute and on the end of the parachute was a flare, things like that and we would come along eh we didn’t, we couldn’t bomb indiscriminately we had to bomb on instructions. We were on the bombing run and Guy Gibson came over ‘Strongbow one to strongbow two,’ he says ‘I am at three thousand feet, I can see everything.’ He said ‘give em hell, give em phutt.’ And that was the end of Guy Gibson. What had happened oh his instruction was ‘Overshoot red two, drop the what’s its name down to the TI and then it might drift.’ We used to come along Gordie the bomb aimer, he come along and he would bomb that flare, things like that. Well when the wind drifted it would take it away from the carpet. So then Gibson would come in and say ‘overshoot the red TI by two seconds.’ Or ‘undershoot’ and things like that and that was the way it goes. Anyway that was it we read the paper the following day where Guy Gibson he’d gone and I got the photograph of that raid and they were saying. And also a picture of Guy Gibson’s grave, just inside what’s its name erm.
JM. What do you think happened to Gibson, ‘cause some people say he was shot down by one of our gunners but the general feeling is that he crashed the aeroplane because he didn’t know how to handle the Mosquito, do you ever think ⸻
JN. Oh no,no, no, once I know he was flying the Lancaster he flew the Lancaster “Dambusters” I mean once you fly, flown ‘cause when you’re training you go up from small to big you just don’t go in feet first. He knew what he was doing. I would think, he said ‘I am at three thousand feet.’ Well when you think of all the, all the Lancasters while they are dropping bombs and he is down at three thousand feet. Now whether it clipped him something like that but I mean he landed in Sweden was it about hundred, hundred and twenty five say a hundred and fifty mile away from where he went silent. So what happened then I don’t think I think he had to go down, and he wouldn’t crash land. He, he it’s all, you don’t know what to think. But that was, was what’s its name and when other bomb, target markers they talking around there, you know him and the deputy. You know it’s like they, talking outside a café having a drink of tea you know. Then we would erm, over the target the bombs would go and the Lancaster used to give a bit of a shake. You could feel the bombs dropping away there and then we would turn onto a reciprocal course for home. About half an hour before we got to the target the navigator would always come on and say after, after the what’s its name, after the target, ‘if anything happens head for this direction.’ That direction compass reading and that will be the nearest American forces or English forces to get down and things like that. Then also he would give the skipper his reciprocal course out of the target. It must have been oh maybe about a fifteenth or sixteenth, well through the tour and was approaching the bombing run and coming on, Lancs was coming up either side of us, you could see them and I thought of something, something was wrong, the sequence had failed what ever, I couldn’t put me hand on it. Anyway we dropped the bombs and we carried on and it must have been about quarter of an hour before I realised, ‘reciprocal!’ ‘Jeepers, crowthers, skipper’ said Jim.’ We’d all, everybody in that crew knew the drill before we got to the target where the navigator would give us our reciprocal course pilot to come out and which direction to head. And not one of the crew had remembered it ‘till we got over, well by this time we was about another hundred and fifty miles deeper into the what’s name. So the skipper turned round [laugh] upped the revs, ‘cause the throttle was fully open, the, the gate up increased the revs, he put the nose down and when you got to about a hundred and eighty it used to shake things like that. Come back, anyway we come back and we were that late getting back they got us down a bit of a, things like that. But would you think, you know, everybody had forgotten we would, you are always on the go as I say I was always on the go, looking around, looking up, marvellous that one. Anyway the special wireless operator David Burnett was – [unclear] was known as airborne cigars ABCs things like that. And we was a night trip and he came over the intercom and he says ‘Gunners’ he says ‘keep your eyes open,’ he says ‘there are two night fighters, they are arguing who is going to shoot a Lancaster down.’ The words hadn’t left his mouth [laugh] the mid upper gunner ‘Corkscrew starboard go!’ The skipper, you know never said what, straight down or went down nose down like that and think well, this 88 was coming from our starboard. Wherever they came, you went towards them and you went down, see, and went round, anyway I went up into the roof, hit me head, like that ‘till we pulled out. Pulled out and come over resumed the course and he went round and he come back again and so we did starboard, port down and this port down, another corkscrew. He went over and as he went across the top of us there was a Lanc off on our right wing he must have seen him coming, so he corkscrewed towards him to go down and as he went to corkscrew his wing, his starboard wing obviously went up to give him a tilt and this 88 got him and shot at him in his starboard wing. Anyway he levelled up and the flame, he caught fire in his starboard wing. We was watching him like that he was flying straight and level then and the flames were silhouetting the whole fuselage. We saw the rear turret, the rear gunner go out the back and we saw one, two, three, lost count going out. [unclear] you could only get out the front you couldn’t get out the back door ‘cause you went straight into the tailplane, thing like that you see it went out and then there was a pause and then the skipper came out, the last to come out. He got out and about a couple of seconds and she went down like that. Just so serenely went down but it all went like clockwork, the drill things like that and that was the, the mid upp, the.
JM. Special op.
JN. The [pause] the German speaking wireless op. They were all Jewish or of Jewish descent all of the, nearly every aircraft had one of these Jews and they were ⸻ ‘cause Jew wasn’t a bad, nasty word that people are calling it now, not really that way ⸻ but they had their own war against Hitler and it was their way of getting back and David Burnett he was only eighteen same as me, things like that, but he saved it, what’s it’s name, things like that saw them coming.
JM. Did they serve under their Jewish name or did they change their names.
JN. Oh no there was one, we had, we had two one that was Jacob, what was, I don’t think I got it in me what. Oh it will have it on it on the flight sheet, the bombing order, ops order got that one in there. And David Burnett well that’s an English name and things like that. But the first one we had he was quite a decent guy very rotund very very fat in other words. He used to sit at a table just behind the wireless operator and every op that we had after each op, oh for a starters when we were in the dispersal waiting to take off and Jacob would go round and collect anything he could find, bricks anything that would go into the flare chute. Now evidently when we dropped the bombs, the flare chute, the flare was synchronised with the bomb – [unclear] when he presses his button, the bombs go like and the flare goes down and it takes a photograph of what have we done you see. Well then Jacob used to sit beside the flare chute so after the bombing run the flare chute was empty and what he used to do, he used to throw these stones or these bricks, if you get a half house brick or a good house brick, they go down. He used to say ‘I have my own private war with zee Germans’ he says ‘when we are over zee target’ he says ‘I got dropping bricks onto them.’ So you can think of some poor German walking around clock, stop, stutter, woom [laugh] You know I used to laugh about it, but er⸻
JM. Could you hear them on the, on the intercom because their jobs was to pretend to be German radio operators weren’t they, could you hear that?
JN. Oh yeah. If ever he spoke, when ever he spoke he spoke but what he did on the what’s it’s names would be like, and he also saved us a bit once. Just shows you how, we were coming back and and it was bad weather at Ludford Magna and we were diverted. Now evidently what Lionel Wright our wireless operator he never got the message from base to divert, I think we diverted to Tangmere if I remember rightly. He, he never got it but David Burnett he was listening in and he heard that you know they’d come over, but he never heard Lionel tell the pilot or tell and also the navigator ‘cause he wanted to know anything like that. So he came over and broke in and says you know ‘There is a diversion for us.’ That was it so we went, come back, so that, it was another little thing that, a little anomaly. But er it was always about half an hour maybe, about three quarters of an hour from the target on a daylight and we used to, every now and again the skipper would come over and he’d go, ‘Rear gunner you all right there?’ ‘All right fine skipper.’ ‘Mid-upper?’ ‘Yes, fine skipper.’ Gordie the bomb aimer ‘You all right Gordie down there.’ ‘Oh a bit of trouble skipper me bomb sight should be’ well, he said ‘I have got it to pieces.’ ‘Oh what’s gone?’, anything like that.’ Well first thing I thought, now the bomb aimer, the bomb aimer‘s panel and the skipper’s blind flying panel are both worked by a vacuum. Now on the starboard engine there was and on the two starboard engines, on the two starboard engines there was a vacuum pump you see. And it came in the one on the starboard engine did the pilot, blind flying and the one on the port did the bomb aimers equipment. So and there was a gauge in the middle with a needle, things like that and that was always on for the blind flying panel. You used to look at it and you can see it there so that was it. Anyway Gordie the bomb aimer came on he said ‘it wasn’t on.’ The first thing I did was looked at the gauge well switch the gauge – [unclear] switch the gauge over and it was down. Well I thought, I said ‘What it is your, your vacuum pump on your engine isn’t working Gordie.’ ‘So what are we going to do?’ ‘I’ll switch it over to the other one.’ Now when I did that it def, it robbed the blind flying panel of the gyros you see, so I could only leave it for about two to three minutes. So I told him what I was going to do, obviously I told the skipper, things like that the gyros would do about twenty two thousand rpm in the blind flying panel. So I switched it over to Gordie, I said ‘Put your things back together,’ I said ‘you have got about quarter of an hour, twenty minutes.’ So I switched over to him like that, got it going. I said ‘I am giving you five minutes and then I will have to go back to the skipper‘s to keep his going.’ So for the bombing run I was to and fro ing things like that. That’s another little what the engineer did all the, everything was cropping up.
JM. Did the captain ever train you to fly the aeroplane in the event of him being injured.
JN. No,no I did flying at the ITW in a link trainer and I did some more in between me ops, when I was, when I finished me ops I landed up at West Raynham on MT. Lorry driving Queen Marys that type and I used to I got in touch well got to know the sergeant who was in charge of the link trainer and so I used to go in there. I have got that in me flying log book – I think, one or two. Oh when we were flying the Halifaxes on two or three times we had a dual control one so I used to get in then. Got it straight and level, that’s all I was bothered about then and then er, no I didn’t do any more. There is another time, it was a daylight oh, [laugh] we got heavy flak on a daylight coming up and we were hit, stop [recording stopped] The bombs, we get Flak and it hit the number two tank, things like that and the spray was coming out the back just like a vapour trail and I said to the skipper ‘We have been hit in the starboard wing.’ As I say it was a daylight and unless you, until you have flown at night time in a Lanc you don’t realise how the sparks are coming out. There is such a high compression engine that they are decarbonising are they are flying. So I thought, Oh, spray and sparks coming out. So I said to the skipper ‘I have got a leaky tank’ I said ‘I am going to switch all the gauges over, the tank cocks over to run all four engines off that leaking tank.’ So I got the engine, the radio operator who is sat near the cross feed tank cock in the middle of the fuselage, got him to turn that off. So what I started to do me, me gauges and, and cocks I started running all four engines off that leaking tank. Now there was about two hundred and fifty gallons in that tank but in the tank outside of that there was another hundred and fifteen gallons and that you can’t run off that, you have to transfer. The idea was you had to transfer that into number two tank, so I am running all four engines off a leaking tank and also transferring another hundred and fifteen gallons into a leaking tank things like that. So I cut the revs down to diminish the sparking effect because all that was in my control, all the skipper just had to do what he could. So he is sort of flying skew whiff a bit and then late, like it lasted about forty five minutes before all that fuel had gone dry you see and it seemed like an eternity on there. Anyway I am down off waiting for the red light, when the fuel pressure drops the red light comes on see, so I am waiting for that red light to come out before switching over to a full tank, you see. So I am down here by me cocks, my skipper was here, I was stood beside him and then my gauge, my fuel cocks were here, just round the corner. So I am waiting for the red light to come on to switch over to a full tank you see and anyway the skipper comes on the intercom and he says ‘I hope you’re keeping your eye on my fuel engineer’ he said, ‘I don’t want my engines cutting.’ I said ‘You fly the bloody aircraft’ I said, [laugh] ‘you fly the ruddy aircraft, I will look after this.’ And a couple of seconds later the light came in and so I switched over you see and then all I had to do then was start running off, the outer number two tank and then transfer that, because the skipper is having a job to keep that wing up. Anyway I started when I got stabilised and then I worked out so I said to the navigator ‘How many mile is it to the target?’ So he said ‘Oh, about five hundred.’ Well you could work an estimate out of one gallon per one mile as a rough. I never achieved that, I’ve achieved point nine five but never got to one. So that was a guide so I looked at me gauges so I said to the skipper ‘I said ‘we have got enough fuel to get to the target.’ So he said right and he carried on and little by little that weight came up so it got a bit more easier for him. We bombed things like that and then we turned round. I said to the engineer, said to the navigator ‘How many mile is it to the enemy coast?’ French coast, so he told me I think, ‘about six hundred.’ I forget the actual figures so I said ‘oh, skipper’, I said, ‘We have got enough fuel to get to our coast.’ So he said ‘All right,’ so I kept the revs down , we were coming down slowly and then we were approaching the coast I said ‘We’ve got enough to get home skipper.’ Things like that. Anyway the skipper cutting a long story short he got a DFC for pressing on things like that and when he got it he dedicated it to the crew and things like that, so that was another one that. Erm, another daylight. We got, we got [laugh] have you seen the Mae West haven’t you?
JM. Yes.
JN. Well, big sort of cover round here, well, the astrodome is up there and the wireless operator is sat here things like that and down beside him he used to have his side pack like you got with Very cartridges. He had a Very pistol which was a massive big what’s it’s name it had so much kick when you use it you had to put it into an an into a –[unclear] into the roof and fire it on accounts of the kick. That was decided what’s its name, if we got flak and the astrodome more or less ripped away, things like that. Some flak, some flak had come down [laugh] cut his collar off, things like that, cut his collar off [laugh].
JM. Cut his collar off?
JN. Yeah he used to have a moustache, I never seen a moustache drop so quickly [laugh] all things like that, that chopped that away and when he looked inside his bag, some flak had gone in, now the, the car, cartridges as well about inch, inch in diameter something like that and you get the percussion cap in the middle, there was six of them in there and some flak had, and it had gone right beside the percussion cap. If the flak had hit that percussion cap that would have gone up and it is right beside a fuel line, it went across – [unclear]. So [laugh] he was looking after us that day up there. Oh dear, happening.
JM. John would you tell us about your crew, you talked about a couple of members, could you tell us who they were and something of their backgrounds.
JN. Well for a start, got to know them, obviously we was all different characters. The, the, the skipper he had his little, he was twenty eight, he was working part time, well part ownership of an engineering shop he wanted to fly he joined up and he was learning his training in a Tiger Moth and as a check he is flying over somewhere in Canada there was a chap out duck shooting and evidently the noise of the Tiger Moth scared the ducks, he couldn’t get the, so he shot at the aircraft. So poor Lyle he got some flak in his backside, his back cheeks [laugh] to this day he still got it in, that was a flight coinc, anyway. He came over and they went onto what’s its name Air Speed Oxfords then onto Wellingtons, then onto course. The bomb, bomb aimer Gordie Bullock he came from Northern Canada and he was a gold miner, worked down the mines, things like that, he was quite a character. He was a flying officer the skipper was flying officer and the navigator he Bob, Bob Irvine he was in, he was an academic, Saint, something to do with teaching but not actually a teacher. Those were the three the main crew. Wright, Lionel Wright the wireless operator he came from Strood as I said, things like that. I didn’t know much what he did. Johnnie Walker was the rear gunner he was younger than I and you know, he was just eighteen same as me, he was a bit, a bit of a loner. He never sort of came with us, he was friendly and things like that but he just done his job. Erm, he used to, used to talk occasionally over the what’s its name, skipper would ask him if he was all right you know. And every time, every time we dropped the bombs skipper used to say ‘all right Gordie,’ Gordie ‘all right skipper, bombs gone.’ ‘let’s get the hell out of here.’ [laugh] – [unclear] ‘Bombs gone.’ And the voice used to come from the rear gunner ‘let‘s get the hell out of here.’ Get back home. Erm, another daylight we got flak and down, ‘where was it?’ [unclear] Down the side of the aircraft here there was two rods one did the rudders, the others did the elevators. Two rods about an inch wide, inch in diameter, two rods like that all the way down from front to back, down that side of the aircraft. Skipper, skipper if he did this the rods would go back and forwards with the rudders, you know like that. Anyway got this flak tat tat tat, tat all over the place and then the skipper came over and he called and he said to me, ‘Me controls is jammed engineer.’ So I said ‘All right then I’ll have a look,’ So took me oxygen, put, disconnected me oxygen mask and then put me portable on ‘cause with the oxygen level but then I didn’t have any communications. Didn’t have, didn’t have a portable communication like that. So I unplugged and I went back looking down and as I walked back these two rods, well they used to work like that in runners. Some flak had come through from the outside and it had come up, and it had pierced, and it had jammed between two runners, the two what’s its name things like that. And it couldn’t, that’s what it was you see anyway so I got me portable oxygen bottle and I managed to knock that out, things like that. I’m not, can’t talk to the skipper ‘cause I couldn’t say ‘oh it’s this, I am doing this, I am doing that.’ I managed to knock it out and it went, so then it was free he could tell, things like that. But [laugh] when I said to the skipper you know about the what’s its name ‘you fly the aircraft.’ You know I felt like when I was going to go back in you know ‘I am going back here now you fly the aircraft.’ But when I knocked it out that what it, and I would loved to have been able to get that piece of shrapnel, things like that was stopping it. Erm, ‘cause what he would have had to do is to fly on the trimming tabs you know, ‘cause it would have always have been the opposite, you wanted to have gone up you would have to go down. That was another incident that everything, coming up oh.
JM. Can I just? [Appears to be doing some adjustment to the recorder]
JN. Yeah, yes we come back from an op one daylight day, come back from an op and called up airfield, William Squared [?] airfield what’s its name “Pancake.” So coming in and they said ‘There is a bit of a cross wind.’ So came in Lyle ready for it, anyway we planned, flared out come down and this wind caught us, so Lyle the skipper said ‘Overshoot!’ so first thing I did, open the throttles right away, straight away –[unclear] and then the starboard outer engine cut so next thing I’ve got to feather I said ‘I am feathering.’ Things like, which takes about four minutes, five minutes, seconds, four seconds, five seconds to get the drag off that aircraft and Lyle struggled with it. How he kept it going I don’t know, anyway we had full power on the three engines and that way, and we took off and got up on the circuit. Come out of the circuit so I said ‘Well when we get to the circuit’ I said ‘I will unfeather and then we will do a test.’ So he said ‘All right then.’ So we unfeathered and got that working again and then I started running that starboard engine you know on the fuel flow, things like that and it hesitated once or twice things like that. So anyway we came back into land and after we went in to the crew room, then we had the message that the [bleep] so anyway as I said the red light was still on on our starboard undercarriage, so I said I would do some tests. So behind the, the wireless operator was the hydraulic tank and hydraulic pump for the undercarriage hydraulics. Well when the undercarriage goes down pump down when the jack reaches the end of the travel the pressure builds up so the cut out, there is a cut out on the, on the hydraulic system otherwise the pump will be pumping at nine hundred pound pressure right away. And that cut out used to go ‘bang!’ things like that. So I said to Lionel, I said, ‘we are going to lower the undercarriage, come down’ I said, ‘tell me when you get the bang.’ So he is listening and said ‘Yes, I’ve got the bang.’ So I knew the pump was working and pushing it down. Now on the side there is a call light, every position had this call light. So if I pressed the call light mine everybody would get one and if they weren’t on they’d come on, pay attention to whatever is doing. Well that was in through the what’s its name, through the same switch. This is what I learned at St Athan on the electrics, well I came into being there. Now we had a two speed super charger M Gear and FS Gear to get up to the twelve thousand feet and change gear you know [laugh] well if the selection of that, if it, you never took off in FS Gear you always had to be into M Gear, medium super charge. Now if that was in FS Gear you used to get the red light, things like that. So I checked that and that wasn’t working and, and the other, other one is was the call light and then another light that went back, forget where that one went but I knew that they all went through, all went through this undercarriage switch, the, the hydraulic pump light went through this switch the indicator for the what’s its, undercarriage went down and I knew so that’s what it was. I said to the skipper ‘Well, I think it is the switch on the under cart’ thing like that, So I said ‘It’s up to you whether you, you know.’ So he called up so they said ‘we will divert you to Carnaby.’ Right on the Yorkshire coast. So we diverted over to Carnaby and we were coming in over, the, the you know the funnels lights, the lights of it coming in, they’re in the sea on the what’s its name so we coming in low it’s day light then coming in so the skipper says ‘good job they have got these, good job they have got these lights, because we’ve got paddle blades on the what’s its name if anything happens.’ Bit of a quip ‘If anything happens we’ve got paddle blades.’ We’re coming over the hedge and touch down and he said approaching, the skipper said ‘well all the crew go to the crash positions between the two spars.’ So I said ‘Well, do you mind if I stay here’ because I said ‘when you touch I will cut the engines, if it goes down on fire I will cut the engines.’ And he said ‘alright engineer thanks very much you do that.’ So we came over and sailing down and I looked beside me we were doing, well we could stall about eighty five things like that eighty five to ninety. We’re coming in and there is a fire engine right beside us before we touched down. Anyway Lyle come down and he kept that wing up, landed on the port wing the port wheel ‘till that went ‘till the air speed dropped then come down and we were all expecting whoosh. We just, before that, I cut the engines, cut down just down like that and she landed. Saying to myself ‘quickly!’ caught the engine and kept it running, things like that. But that was all on account of a little micro switch that wasn’t functioning everything like that, ah.
JM. John, as you got to the end of your tour, you did thirty operations.
JN. Thirty one.
JM. Thirty one, was it a time of tension as you got towards the end of the tour?
JN. No not really, no it’s, we got used to it we knew, we knew we all volunteered we knew what we were letting ourselves in for er, but there were loads of frights, I mean to say I wasn’t scared, there’s not any, you know, frightened, you are not where you are crying for your mother and things like that. The worse time, well three or four times where I felt really, really afraid you know was when we was attacked you know by the Junkers and then also when we got the fuel what’s its name. The tension of waiting for that fuel to be used up before a spark ignited it things like that. [unclear] but you knew what you had to do, I never faltered in doing what I do, it was the way I was trained. I was that interested into it you know, and I thought, well I can’t let the crew down. But if you’d made a mistake you were letting seven others go, you know, fall by the wayside. I just put it down to experience we’d be one daylight er, there was one off our starboard wing a Lancaster I’d been having a meal this is what happened on three times at the table having the main op, it was egg and chips that was a treat, main ops meal been having them I’d been at the table various table you know I didn’t sit with who [unclear] every day. The officers they were in their own mess they were, things like that, kept with them. But you get to know the persons, things like that and I been flying and I’ve seen on a beautiful daylight, I have seen one flak come up puff, puff, puff and I seen the one completely obliterated and I thought to myself. It was B Baker I been out, I was having a dinner with them, you just turn round and oh well you go on with it. Erm, collisions we used to get a lot of collisions if ever you get into a bombing run you know was the worst of all. Was on one bombing run and as the Lanc above us to the left oh about twenty feet above us and as I say when you leave the coast you are all sort of converging. So over the target you are gradually converging and this one was coming over and he had got his bomb doors open so I just tapped the skipper on the shoulder, things like that, steady, hold it there skipper, I said to the skipper ‘keep staring like that’ and he got his bomb doors open and as I say he is gradually converging things like that and our skipper was watching, ‘bomb doors!’ [emphasis] ‘bombs gone skipper’. None of this holding for a photograph, went over like that. Now I mean we didn’t see when they came down but we don’t know if they had gone down. We’d been in and seen the bombers, especially at night time, you see the bombers beneath things like that. If you see one between you out like that you know your bombs are not going to hit him but there’s you know somebody behind. Its, over the target it is catch as catch can you are all doing your best. But you used to get the ma, the master bombers in the Mosquitoes, you’d hear them milling around some of the funniest names call signs you know so that they weren’t sort of recognised, one might be. And they talk like you and I talking - [unclear] overshoot. Guy Gibson he was coming out so easily. ‘I am at two thousand, three thousand feet chaps give them I can see everything give them hell.’ And that was Guy Gibson gone.
JM. When you got to the end of your tour what happened to you after that?
JN. After the tour I came home on indefinite leave I got home, I went straight home down to Graves to me mum and dad. I was on leave oh, must have been about two month ‘cause I finished me tour and then you had this rest period. I think it was six months before you were due to go back on ops again you see. Went down there with me mum when I, when I left the squadron to go home they gave me some ration coupons and of course I went out with them they gave me just for so long. So I had to ‘phone up the Ludford, yeah Ludford Magna to send me. Anyway they sent me some more, what’s its name coupons for me mum and then I had a telegram to report to Brackla, Nairn right up Scotland right at the tip. So right they sent the travel warrant things like that, so I went up, caught the train, things like that, I think it took me nearly three days to get up there, all the way through changing and this that and the other got up to Brackla and Nairn was just about eight mile inboard. So I got up there [laugh] and I ‘phoned up the station you know to say I was here, would you send transport for me. So they said, I think it was about eight o’clock at night, maybe a bit less. ‘Oh’ he said ‘we are too busy for you tonight’ he said, ‘book in at the local hotel.’ So I booked into the local hotel and then the following day I got cal. Transport, transport came in for me and when I got to Brackla there was about six hundred expired aircrews like myself, things like that. But they were closing Brackla down, so I was only there for four days and then I went into the office he says ‘We’re gonna send you away’, he says ‘you are back on leave.’ He said ‘Where would you like to go? where would you like [emphasis] to go?’ I said ‘Well I have just had a long leave down at home,’ I said ‘I would like to go to me girlfriend, me fiancé in Bramwell.’ So he said ‘all right then.’ He filled, so I got a train down here and I was here in Bramwell with Nancy, we were courting then. I, I had permission from her Mum and Dad, come down and I was with them for about two to three months things like that. Then I got a call up to go to erm, West, West Raynham, West Raynham well he said, early on when I, I got finished I said ‘what I want to do, I want to go onto MT.’ With being a lorry driver before I joined up I was a, I used to come home from school on a night time. I’d be about twelve, thirteen and in the next road was a haulage contractors. I used to go round there and go out with the lorries, and come and fill them up with lorries, fill em up with petrol. And then of a weekend the governor would ask me if I would like to go in on a Sunday and help the fitter that used to do the repairs on a weekend and clean. I used to clean the parts, I’d get me self three shillings I think I used to have more more spends than me Dad used to get. We’d go in and then of course I was half working on the lorries and things like that. I was in my element and Ben the fitter he was quite a nice chap, thinking about it if I asked him a question he wouldn’t say ‘No, no get that cleaned, I want that clean.’ He would answer me and explaining to me, that’s where I learned to time an engine and things like that. I used to go out with things like that, it was marvellous. And then I said to the governor there that I would like to come when I leave school, ‘I would like to come and work for you.’ Used to go out with him. Anyway I left school on Friday and I started work on the Monday as a tail board monkey, things like that and we used to go up through London to the other side of London with oil and things like that. And the, the bomb the blitz had been going on during the night. We had gone up in the days there had been hose pipes over there. One it was in the paper, one a loc, a bus had got blown up, you might have seen it, on its side we went right by that and that is what inspired me more so. Cor, I would like to get back at that lot.
JM. I want to ask you about that John, you made that your motivation. When you got to the end of the war and you had done your tour. How did you feel about that, did you feel you had your revenge, how did you feel about what had happened.
JN. I felt that I had done my bit. I felt what satisfied or gratified that I had done my bit. I was glad that my boss let me go. Because I thought when I’d gone home on leave, I will give you an example in a moment. I’d gone home on leave and I’d seen other tall young men walking around and I used to think ‘Well why are they not in the service? Why are they not?’ Disregarding your rejecters you know. Conch, contryv [sic] what they call themselves. And then one weekend I got a leave, I came home, I was half way through me tour came home and er, I got a week, a week’s leave. I bumped into two of me school mates Ray, Ray [unclear] Rover? I can’t form it! He was in the Army and he was home on leave, he had been wounded he was and he was on the French Coast and he got wounded he came home. And the other one was a, see their faces he was in the Navy and he was in, he was out in the Atlantic on a victualling ship. The victualling ship used to carry food supplies and they used to rendevous in the Atlantic to feed the Destoyers things like that you see. He was on that and he come home on leave. So I met them I said ‘Well we will go to the Queens.’ To dancing tomorrow night, they said ‘alright.’ I said ‘I will see you in the bar downstairs.’ So I said ‘well let’s wear our civvies, I said ‘alright then.’ So we all three civvies, three young eighteen, eighteen and a half nearly nineteen old. And it was a narrow bar, about as long as this but just as wide and a little bar not much wider than the windows and the door and a table at this end about this length. So we walked in, two boys Ray and George they sat down we’re having a pint so I walked up to the bar. Now I know the manager of the Queens hotel ‘cause he used to be at the dance where we used to go dancing upstairs. Quite what’s its name and he was leaning one side of the bar on our side not behind the bar the barman there and then he had a colleague that was leaning on this sides. So we walked up, I walked up, ‘what you doing.’ ‘Oh three pints please.’ So waiting, he did me two pints, well I couldn’t, I couldn’t manage three, I hadn’t big enough hands. So I went back and dropped the two pints onto the lads and I went back and he was saying this ‘look at that lot there,’ he said ‘my son’ he was saying it so I could hear it. He said ‘Oh’ I said, the first time he said ‘my son’s out on a victualling ship, on a Destroyer.’ On a victualling ship that was it ‘out in the Atlantic.’ He said ‘look at this lot here.’ He was leaning away. So I came back, put the two glasses down and went back for me third one so I said to him, I said, ‘I couldn’t help overhearing what you was saying’ I says, I said, ‘but that chap on the left’ I said ‘he is in the Merchant, he is in the Navy.’ I said ‘and for all you know your son and his victualling ship might have been supplying to him.’ I said ‘the other one there’ I said ‘and he is home and he the war, injured, leave from France.’ I said ‘ he is in the Army’ I said ‘and now me’ I said ‘I’m in the Air Force.’ I said ‘I have just come home on leave.’ I said ‘I am on ops.’ I said. Anyway this chap who was talking he felt that ashamed, not the one who walked away and the owner of the what’s its name, I could tell he didn’t know what to do, didn’t know what to do. So that’s where I was glad, I was glad that I volunteered you know, thought, or probably wouldn’t have thought about it at the time. But if I had remained young working, things like that people might have spoken about me, ‘look at that young man there, my husband’s away you know fighting.’ All little things like that sort of turn over in your mind but.
JM. John, did you keep in touch with your crew once you’d finished your tour and are they still with us or what happened to them?
JN. Yes, yes the skipper sadly died about four, five years ago he was ah he was twenty eight he was. We finished ops and then I retired in nineteen seventy. We kept writing. He came over on holiday, he came over twice him and his family. Now we was here, I was up here then and obviously, he ‘phoned up he was at Chester. He said he would, he’d like to meet us, so we went over to Chester. I said oh, alright then we will go over and see them. So we went over to Chester, my mum was up on holiday me dad had passed away then. So David, Denise he wasn’t married then and my wife who was alive then and me mother we went over to Chester where they were. And talking away there things, we had a lovely meeting there and we took ‘em round. Prior to coming and I knew we was going over to see them so what I did, I saw my gaffer at work and I said ‘I have got my skipper over.’ Things like that ‘what’s the chance of bringing him round?’ I was on holiday at the time so I said ‘like’ so he said ‘yeah’ he said ‘I’ll get a pass for you.’ So, anyway we went over to pick them up and Lyle said ‘There is a little place nearby’ where one of his friends had been over, a lovely little church.’ He turned out to be a lay preacher after what’s name ‘and there is a stream rolling beside it.’ Sounds so tranquil so beautiful ‘and there is an organ.’ He said ‘and my friend said I would like to go and see it.’ I said ‘well alright if we can find out where it is.’ I asked a local, he said ‘just round the corner, some little place.’ We went in there with me mum, David and Denise and it was a lovely church, it was so picturesque, so help me Bob the organ was playing inside the church. That made Lyle‘s day, things like that. So we took him home and then from then I said ‘now we are going down as a surprise.’ So we drove over here, we drove them to Woodford and went in and I took them round the factory, things like that, I introduced them to the what’s is name, my foreman, gee [unclear] eh, eh William Squared was what’s its name MG 139 was their what’s its name. So I said ‘this is where it was made.’ He was over the moon with that, then after that we went out. We took them to a Chinese meal in Hazel Grove and then went back to Chester things like that dropped them off and then came back and it’s four o’clock in the morning after that day when David and I. Now point, best part was David could drive and he used to drive my car. So when we got over there when we sort of drove from the Chester hotel going down, David drove my car and I drove Lyle‘s car and he said ‘the biggest fear John’ he said, ‘I landed in London’ and they went into Tottenham Court Road somewhere to a car hire business.’ And he said ‘they had a Hillman Minx.’ He said ‘they turned me loose in Tottenham Court Road.’ And he had never driven on the wrong side of the road before so everywhere we went I drove his car and he liked it, very nice that worked out and then. I went seventy, I went over there on my own and had a nice entertaining three weeks over there. And then now he has passed away and now his son, no sorry his daughter Carol and her husband they come over. They are teachers, things like so it is nice for David and this they come over and they stay with David and Denise at what’s its name and the mid upper‘s son, mid upper gunner’s son Brian he lives right on the east, west coast of Canada he comes over occasionally he was here about two. So I keep in touch with them but it’s lovely, in my dotage I sit back and reminisce what has happened you know.
JM. John you have been absolutely marvellous this morning, thank you very much for your interview. I think you have really showed me just how complex the Lancaster is and the range of skills that you mastered absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much indeed.
JN. My pleasure, my pleasure.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with John Norrington
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Julian Maslin
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-27
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Sound
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ANorringtonAWJ160827
PNorringtonAW2201
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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01:17:11 audio recording
Description
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John Norrington was a lorry driver when he volunteered for the Royal Air Force. After initial training, he went to RAF Sandtoft on Lancasters and Halifaxes; he crewed up with Flying Officer James, then was at RAF Hemswell for the Lancaster Finishing School. John was posted to 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna where he flew thirty-one operations in Germany and France until demobilised.
John discusses Czechoslovakian and Polish aircrew, Jewish personnel, and German-speaking servicemen tasked to listen to German radio communications and disrupt them. He talks about civilian and service life, military ethos, losses, plus personal recollections of Guy Gibson.
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
France
Germany
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Carolyn Emery
101 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
demobilisation
faith
fear
flight engineer
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Pathfinders
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Sandtoft
RAF St Athan
recruitment
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/542/8782/AHardingV150520.2.mp3
73090ff7946ff4451cdd82def306eea2
Dublin Core
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Title
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Harding, Victor
Victor Thomas Harding
V T Harding
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Harding, V
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Leading Aircraftsman Victor Harding (1234463, Royal Air Force). He served as an airframe fitter.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Claire Bennett; the interviewee is Mr Victor Harding. The interview is taking place at Mr Harding’s home in Queen’s Court, Retford, on the 20th of May 2015. Well Vic, would you like to tell us the date and place of your birth?
VH: Er, 05-03-22. We was in Middlesex.
CB: And can you remember your early childhood?
VH: Yes because I was born outta wedlock, and my mother sent me down to a home in Kent, to, to join the forces.
CB: And you stayed in a – you were in a –
VH: I stayed in a home – what you call a home for little [unclear], my daughter knows it ‘cause she took me there. And I was there ‘till I was nineteen ‘till I volunteered, joined the Air Force.
CB: And do you remember much about it? What are your memories of it?
VH: What the home?
CB: Yes.
VH: It was marvellous. It was run by ex-military people and they’re very very good to you. Plenty of discipline and everything, oh yeah. And when I was eighteen, that’s when I volunteered to join the Air Force then.
CB: What –
Other: You learnt, you learnt a trade in the home, didn’t you?
VH: Pardon?
Other: You learnt a trade in the home.
VH: Oh yes, in the – they, after you finish your schooling age, they had different trades there. They had the printing department, a cobblers, carpentry, tailoring department, trades to learn when you’ve finished doing your schooling.
CB: And you went in for –
VH: Tailoring. Because the war broke out, and then I volunteered for the Air Force.
CB: What made you choose the Air Force in particular?
VH: I don’t know really [laughs]. I just fancied it, you know. And they asked me if I wanted to be aircrew or ground staff, so I thought ‘I haven’t got the brains to be aircrew’ so I volunteered to be in the ground staff to maintain the air craft.
CB: You were mechanically minded?
VH: I was flying mechanic air frame lot of the time. Everything by the engines, yeah,
CB: Would you have liked to have flown?
VH: I would have done if I had brains, yeah. [Both laugh]
CB: But nobody said you didn’t have any brains, this is what you perceived. [VH laughing]
VH: Well, I didn’t think I would be qualified for it enough sort of thing.
CB: So where did you start your training? Where did you join up?
VH: I went to Blackpool, and I done my – I can’t remember whether it was six months training at Kirkham for a flight mechanics course. When I passed out, I was sent to Cottesmore to Operational Training Unit.
CB: And what was your training, you know, like? Did you enjoy it?
VH: I did, really enjoyed it.
CB: How did you get to the, the training place? Was it on the train?
VH: No the Air Force took me there, you know. I went to Cottesmore –
CB: Yes.
VH: And I was on old Southampton’s [?]. All the old stuff sort of thing ‘till I was qualified, and then when I was paid, I was put onto Bomber Command then.
CB: But, you would get your posting wouldn’t you, and then you’d have to get to your posting destination –
VH: That’s it, yeah they –
CB: Did you, did you go on the trains during the war?
VH: Pardon?
CB: Did you go the trains during the war?
VH: Trains?
CB: Mm.
VH: No.
CB: No?
VH: No, never went on trains.
CB: So how did you get around? Did the –
VH: The Air Force took me around, you know.
CB: Right.
VH: To different stations, yes.
CB: Right. So, so you’d, a group of you would go perhaps and they’d take you to the stations?
VH: Yeah.
CB: And what was your, you know, your time training? You know, what kind of accommodation did you have?
VH: Well, sometimes I was in Nissan huts, sometimes I was in buildings, you know. All depends where you were stationed sort of thing.
CB: Where was, where do you think your best station was? You enjoyed the most?
VH: Oh, best place was at Lakenheath. It was a brick building, but when the Yanks came and saw it they took it over. So we were putting Nissan huts [laughs].
CB: Well the Nissan huts I think were pretty sparse weren’t they?
VH: Yeah.
CB: And cold, is that your –
VH: That’s it, yeah.
CB: Is that how you remember them, or?
VH: Yeah.
CB: Am I wrong?
VH: That’s it [laughs].
CB: So you went – so your first main posting –
VH: My first posting was at Cottesmore.
CB: Right, and what planes would you be on?
VH: I was on the Anton’s, Oxfords, and just the, all the things to tinkle about with, you know. ‘Till I was posted on Bomber Command.
CB: And the planes, were they easy to maintain, or?
VH: Yeah, they were quite easy really.
CB: You learnt quickly?
VH: Yeah I did, yeah.
CB: Was it good training?
VH: Oh yes, I had six months training at Kirkham.
CB: And what were you –
VH: I was flight mechanic air frames on everything bar the engines.
CB: Right, so you would main – so what would that entail? So, tell me about, you know, all the details of it.
VH: Well, you looked after the runners and the balance and everything, you know.
CB: Right. And then you entered Bomber Command.
VH: That’s it, yeah.
CB: So your first, first job would be, or your first posting rather, would be –
VH: Ah [pause]. Cottesmore was the first one I went to with Operational Training Unit.
CB: Yes.
VH: Yeah.
CB: On OTU?
VH: Yeah.
CB: And, where did you go to after that?
VH: I went to quite a few stations. I went to Bardney for a while, Woodhall Spa, er, Lakenheath, Marham, all different stations you know. With all different squadrons that I went with.
CB: Yes, and what was your work there? Same sort of thing?
VH: Flight mechanic airframe. I done that everything bar the engines.
CB: What planes were you working on?
VH: I worked on Wellingtons, Mosquitos, Lancasters, Hamdy Hamptons [?].
CB: Did you ever go for a flight in these, any of these?
VH: Oh yes. So when they used to do something to the airframe or engines, you used to, we used to go up with them for an air test [emphasis]. Yeah.
CB: So you did you go for any long [emphasis] trips in them?
VH: Not really long trips, no. First I went I think was Peterhead, when we went up there to refuel them.
CB: And did you enjoy the flight? Do you think – did you –
VH: Well I love flying.
CB: Did you regret not going for aircrew?
VH: I don’t, no [laughs]. I think I would have enjoyed it, you know, but I might not be here today [both laugh].
CB: So where was your accommodation, say at Bardney? Where was – were you still in the Nissan huts?
VH: No, I think I was in buildings there, I think, I’m sure it was.
CB: Was it, were you, did you have accommodation with a family. Were you –
VH: No didn’t have it with no family.
CB: It was in an Air Force –
VH: Air Force quarters, yeah.
CB: Air Force quarters.
VH: Yeah.
CB: And what did you do, where did you go for relaxation in Bardney? Do you remember?
VH: Not really. Used to go out with the lads, you know, and have a drink and a smoke [laughs].
CB: Pubs? [VH laughs]. Dare I suggest? Do you remember Bardney at all?
VH: Not a lot, no.
CB: So your, was your life mainly in the, on the camp basically?
VH: It was on the camp, yes.
CB: So, the planes – explain to me how it works. So what would be your typical day?
VH: Well you go out on the dispersal plane [?]. The aircraft was there and you had to test the rudders, the elevators, the wings and everything. Then you had to test your hydraulics, make sure they are working and everything.
CB: And then you’d –
VH: Then you had to sign a form, Form 700, detailing what you had done and everything, and the pilot used to say ‘okay, I know that you’ve checked it.’
CB: And what planes would these be? Would these be –
VH: I used to be on Lancasters, Mosquitos, Hamdy Hamptons [?], Wellingtons –
CB: And what – but what about Bardney? Was it – what was it at Bardney?
VH: Bardney?
CB: Mm.
VH: I think I was on Lancasters there.
CB: Mm.
VH: Yeah.
CB: What did you think about the Lancaster as a plane?
VH: Marvellous aircraft, lovely.
CB: Did you think, you know , when you first saw it, overwhelming really? Like the size of it.
VH: Well, the size of it yeah [emphasis]. I mean, the wheels were bigger than me [both laugh].
CB: But was it a case of just, you know, getting on with the job as it were?
VH: Well it – true, yeah. I enjoyed the job, I did really.
CB: What was the food like that you had there?
VH: Very good there.
CB: And can you remember –
VH: And I met some very nice people, you know. Ground staff and aircrew and everybody and, I got on well with everybody.
CB: So you enjoyed your time there?
VH: I did [emphasis]. If I hadn’t got married I think I would have kept in the Air Force [both laugh].
CB: When did you meet your wife?
VH: In forty, forty-six, yeah.
CB: So after the war?
VH: No, just before I finished the war, yeah.
CB: Oh right. So you – I mean, good food in Bardney –
VH: Oh I had good food all the time I was in the Air Force, I can’t complain.
CB: Well, ‘cause there was rationing on wasn’t there?
VH: Pardon?
CB: Rationing on.
VH: Oh yeah, but we weren’t rationed [laughs].
CB: No?
VH: No.
CB: So you just had your normal food then?
VH: Yes, well, our food was lovely. Very good.
CB: Did you have a bike to go around on, or?
VH: I used to have a bike yeah, ‘cause when I was at Woodhall Spa I used to bike to Boston most nights, you know, if I wasn’t on duty and things.
CB: Right. So, ‘cause these, these airfields were spread out, weren’t they?
VH: Yeah.
CB: A lot of them. And you needed a bike.
VH: Oh yeah.
CB: So you were dealing with Lancasters, and where did you go after Bardney? Can you remember?
VH: No I went to that many. I went to Theddlethorpe [?], Bardney, Lakenheath, quite a few all local. All round Lincolnshire way, you know, most of them.
CB: Mm.
VH: The first I went away was at Marham in Norfolk.
CB: Yes?
VH: Mm.
CB: And what did you make of that? Did you –
VH: Marham?
CB: Mm.
VH: Quite a nice place. That’s where I had my first squadron of Mosquitos there.
CB: Right.
VH: Mm.
CB: So you worked on the Mosquitos there?
VH: Oh yes. I liked them I did [both laugh].
CB: The wooden wonder. [?]
VH: We had the first squadron of Mosquitos and first day we got there at Marham the Germans came along and dropped flares. I thought ‘oh there we’ve had it.’ But we got away with it [laughs].
CB: Is that the first time you’d had any –
VH: We had Mosquitos, yeah.
CB: Is this the first time you’d seen enemy action as it were, dropping bombs?
VH: Well it was, dropping flares over the place yeah. We thought ‘we’re in for it’ that night but we got away with it [both laugh].
CB: Oh dear. And do you remember anybody in particular, you know, friends?
VH: In the Air Force?
CB: Yeah, friends.
VH: Oh yes. Guy Gibson.
CB: If we’re – erm yes, that was at Woodhall Spa.
VH: Yeah.
CB: Did you work with him, or on – well, you were on 627 Squadron.
VH: Yeah. I was with Guy Gibson, I worked with Richard Attenborough, Group Captain Cheshire.
CB: Yes.
VH: Mm.
CB: So at Woodhall Spa, which is – did you finish at Woodhall Spa? Was that your last one before the end of the war?
VH: I think it was. I’m sure it was, yeah.
CB: And you were on 627 Squadron there –
VH: Yeah.
CB: Is that right? Were you, you were with other squadrons. 149 did you say?
VH: Yes, I was, yeah 149 Royal Canadian Air Force –
CB: You worked with the Canadians?
VH: Yeah, and [pause] a Jamaican squadron, I don’t know whether it was 139, I can’t remember what that was but whatever squadron it was I got on well with all of them. Canadian and the Jamaica squadron.
CB: Excellent. So at Woodhall Spa, how did you get there? Did you, did the Air Force take you there?
VH: Air Force. Wherever it was the Air Force took you.
CB: ‘Cause I think –
VH: Transport, you know.
CB: Right, ‘cause I think most people arrived at the station didn’t they?
VH: Yeah.
CB: And then they’d be picked up.
VH: Well I did. One time I was posted to, er, where was it, Oakington was it? Yeah, and I got a transport ticket to Oakham, yeah, I got the wrong place [both laugh]. I don’t think, I made a blunder [?].
CB: Well it can’t have been easy travelling around in the war.
VH: Oh yeah.
CB: You know, on the trains or whatever.
VH: Well it’s true.
CB: So you arrived at Woodhall Spa, and, on Mosqutios?
VH: Yeah.
CB: Did, where did you live at Woodhall Spa? Were you on –
VH: In billets.
CB: Again, what is –
VH: Woodhall Spa.
CB: - what is now Thorpe Camp? Was that where you were?
VH: Where?
Other: Thorpe Camp. You know where they’ve got the museum and that.
VH: Oh yeah.
CB: That’s where you were?
VH: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
CB: What did you make of it, or what did you –
VH: Of Woodhall Spa?
CB: Yes.
VH: I loved it. Nice place.
CB: Did you go into the town very often?
VH: Yeah, I used to walk to Tatteshall and places like that which was nearby.
CB: Did you, you know, how did you relax there at Woodhall Spa? Would the, would the ground crew ever, you know, mix with the aircrew?
VH: Oh yes, quite often, yeah. I had a good mate there, Canadian chap, and I can always remember one night in the – he sat awake, the crew generally get together chatting before they go on a raid, and he was a rear gunner, and he was chatting [?] that night and I went over to him and I says ‘what’s wrong George?’ And he says ‘we’re not coming back tonight,’ I says ‘well don’t talk stupid.’ They didn’t.
CB: Wow.
VH: He had that premonition they weren’t coming back.
CB: Did you ever –
VH: That did upset me, you know, that did.
CB: Did you get that a lot, or was that just one you remember? Do you, you know –
VH: Ooh no, I remember quite a few who didn’t get back.
CB: Mm. But then, did they –
VH: Waited for them, but they never returned.
CB: Did they had the premonition though before they went?
VH: Yeah, one or two did.
CB: And how did you feel about that? It –
CB: Well I felt awful really. When you’re waiting for them and they don’t return, you know, really hits you.
CB: Mm. What was the atmosphere at, in the, on the airfield?
VH: Oh, it was very good really, yeah we all got on well together. The ground staff and the aircrew, you know.
CB: And you would, as you say, you would relax together, and –
VH: Oh yes, I mean, if you had no raids on and everything you’d go out and have a drink with the lads and the aircrew, you know.
CB: Do you remember the, where you would go in Woodhall Spa?
VH: No, I can’t remember, you’re going back –
CB: I think, I think it was the Mucky Duck, wasn’t it?
VH: Oh that, I was gonna say the Mucky Duck! [Other speaks in background but is unclear what is said. VH replies but this is also unclear.]
CB: Yeah, I think that was quite popular there wasn’t it?
VH: It was, yeah [both laugh]. Then I used to cycle sometimes into Boston.
CB: Yes. So you’d cycle into Boston did you say?
VH: Yeah, cycle into Boston, yeah.
CB: Right, that’s a fair way.
VH: Well, it was really, but –
CB: And, on your own, or with your friends?
VH: Yes, with a girl from there.
CB: Oh right [both laugh]. And what would you do in Boston? What did you think of Boston?
VH: I liked Boston I did. Boston Stump and all that. It’s quite changed from what it used to be, but it, I thought it was a lovely place at the time.
CB: And what did you do, where did you go?
VH: Go for a drink [laughs].
CB: Did you go to the glider drome? I think that was a popular place. No? Perhaps for the aircrew.
VH: Was it Withamgate [?]?
CB: Yeah.
VH: We used to go round there, and the Boston Stump and all round that way, hmm.
CB: So you enjoyed that?
VH: I did [laughs].
CB: And what would, ‘cause – there was some famous station commanders, well not, commanding officers at Woodhall Spa. Do you remember Cheshire?
VH: Group Captain Cheshire, yeah.
CB: What do you make –
VH: Guy Gibson.
CB: What did you make of Cheshire? What did you think of him?
VH: I got on well with all of them, yeah.
CB: Can you remember –
VH: They were quite good to us, they were really good to all the ground staff really, you know, ‘cause they relied on us sort of thing to look after them, didn’t they? [Unclear, both laugh].
CB: Indeed they did [VH laughs]. Especially I think, erm, Leonard Cheshire, he was particularly fond of his –
VH: Yeah. Cheshire [unclear] at one time didn’t they?
CB: Yes. And he would come and talk to you at, you know, when you were mending the aircraft?
VH: Yes, I mean, when there was no raids on or anything and things were easier, we used to go out and have a drink with them sort of thing, you know, they were just like talking to anybody. Except when you’re on the parade ground it had to be ‘sir’ sort of thing, you know.
CB: Did you do much parade ground?
VH: Pardon dear?
CB: Were you on the parade ground very much? Did it, was that part of your life?
VH: Playground?
CB: The parade ground.
VH: Oh, we didn’t do a lot on the parade ground, no, because it was mostly time on the, looking after the aircraft, you know.
CB: So you missed some of that out?
VH: Yes, oh yeah, we didn’t have a lot to do on the parade ground really.
CB: What was the discipline like?
VH: Pardon?
CB: What was the –
VH: Discipline? Discipline was quite good, strict, you know. See, see, discipline didn’t really bother me because being in a home was run by all ex-army people, I was disciplined there. I had to march to school and everything, you know. So going in the Air Force, it didn’t really hit me.
CB: So your time in the, the children’s home –
VH: Made me more or less fit for the Air Force really.
CB: So you look back on those as happy days, and –
VH: They were, yeah. That home was very good. ‘Cause my daughter took me up there few years back didn’t you, and it’s not the same place now, it’s been taken over by retirement people, and when they knew I was one of the boys who had been there, ooh they shook my hand didn’t they [CB laughs] made quite a fuss of me.
CB: Were there girls there as well or was it just boys?
VH: No, just boys, yeah.
CB: And you made some good friends there?
VH: Yes I made some good friends there, yeah.
CB: Did you manage to keep in touch with them afterwards?
VH: One or two of them, but when I went with my daughter last time, and I saw one or two of the names in the church who’d been, passed away, and killed and that during the war. That really upset me.
CB: Hmm. So at Woodhall Spa, another CO was Tate. Did you, did you come across Willy Tate very much?
VH: Pardon?
CB: Willy Tate, he was –
VH: Willy Tate? I can’t remember dear.
CB: No.
VH: No. You meet that many people you know, you can’t remember all their names, sorta thing.
CB: No, no of course not.
VH: No.
CB: So tell me what you remember of Guy Gibson.
VH: I found him very very good. Very good to the ground staff. I think he was a bit trick [?] with the aircrew, but to the ground staff he was magnificent.
CB: Well, that’s wonderful. So, you got, did you have a relationship with him? Did he you know help you, or come and chat?
VH: Not really no. Just ‘how are you sir’ and ‘your aircraft’s ready’ and that sorta thing you know.
CB: When the planes came back from their raids, and they were –
VH: That was lovely seeing them come back [laughs].
CB: Yes.
VH: But when you’re waiting, and yours don’t come back you think ‘oh, has it crash landed somewhere’ or ‘has it landed at another airdrome?’ And eventually you hear it hadn’t come back. It really upset you.
CB: Hmm. And then it would be your job to, to mend them. And get them back right?
VH: Yeah.
CB: Hmm. So were there any events that you can remember at Woodhall Spa? You know, things like, I don’t know, collisions, or, you know –
VH: There been one or two crash landings. I seen crash landings, yeah.
CB: What did you – can you remember how you would –
VH: We didn’t do nothing to it, the air, er, the fire engines and everything used to go out to them.
Other: But you remember the – when they were training for the Dambusters don’t you?
VH: Pardon?
Other: When they training for the Dambusters.
VH Oh yeah, when they training for the Dambusters. We wondering what was happening because they was training for about two or three months before they actually done it, and they come over and did what we called hedge-hopping, just come over the hedge, just miss us, you know, and you think ‘what’s going on?’ [CB laughs]. And they kept it a secret right ‘till the night they went. When they came out that night they said ‘this is it,’ so we said, ‘what,’ ‘what we’ve been training for you know when we come back’ [CB and VH laugh].
CB: So they were –
VH: Very secretive, it was.
CB: Yes.
VH: But when they came back they said ‘we done it’ [laughs].
CB: Right [both laugh]. So was – that was at Scampton, were you at Scampton at all?
VH: No that was at, er, Woodhall Spa [emphasis].
CB: Right.
VH: I never went to Scampton. Only went there for my medals didn’t I? That’s all.
CB: Mm. So you – how do you remember your wartime career?
VH: Yes I can do, yeah.
CB: And you, how do you remember it, with –
VH: Well I think it was quite good really because the – I was disobedient at home so going to the Air Force, that was more or less the same, sorta life, sort of thing.
CB: Mm. So [pause] the – I think some of what the personnel, the aircrew at Woodhall Spa, they were, they were known for their pranks, some of them. And I suppose the low flying would have been one of them.
VH: It was, yeah.
CB: Did you have any, many air raids there?
VH: No not really, no.
CB: So you, the Germans didn’t attack you –
VH: No.
CB: At Woodhall Spa? It was [unclear]
VH: No, no, they came over when we were at Marham, Norfolk, when we had the first squadron of Mosquitos. I thought ‘this is it,’ flares came down but as soon as the gun fire opened up they went [both laugh].
CB: So do you remember any time – the time that Guy Gibson took off on the night he was killed? Do you remember anything about that?
VH: Er, he just came out, and he just said ‘I’m gonna take this aircraft’ and that’s it. Just didn’t come back.
CB: No, he was with Warwick –
VH: Mosquitos.
CB: Yes, because he wasn’t too familiar with them, was he?
VH: No.
CB: So –
VH: It could have been that you see.
CB: Yeah. Was he – do you remember what his manner was like, how he –
VH: He was – I found him quite good myself.
CB: But he wanted to get back flying, didn’t he? Do you remember anything about that particular night, as to how he was?
VH: No, he came out that night and says ‘do you mind if I take the, this Mosquito?’ and I said ‘no sir,’ and he just got in it and went.
CB: And what did you feel when he didn’t come back?
VH: Well I felt awful really, you know. I wondered what, if he really knew in his own heart whether he was going to do anything. You don’t know what’s in their mind, do you really?
CB: No, no you don’t. But you, you just thought it was just another, another plane that hadn’t come back.
VH: Yeah.
CB: You didn’t –
VH: That’s true.
CB: Did you know straight away that – I mean he could have landed somewhere else. When did you find out that –
VH: Ah, we didn’t find out for [pause] two, two, three hours after. They must have rung round to see if he’d landed anywhere else, but, he hadn’t, so.
CB: No.
VH: I think over the hills was it, in Kent I think, where he actually crashed, I think.
CB: He crashed in Holland.
VH: Yeah, oh was it Holland?
CB: Yeah.
VH: I knew it was somewhere –
CB: Yeah, coming back from an operation. So, you, you remember it with fondness, the –
VH: Pardon?
CB: You remember it with fondness, your time in Bomber Command –
Other: Fondness, you enjoyed it.
VH: Oh I, I enjoyed all my life [?], I loved Bomber Command.
CB: So –
VH: And everyone I worked with. We all seemed to be like a family, sort of thing, you know, we worked ever so well together, the ground staff and the air crew did.
CB: And you went to Lakenheath. Were the Americans there at Lakenheath when you were there?
VH: Pardon?
CB: Were the Americans at Lakenheath, when you were there?
VH: Was I –
CB: Was the –
Other: Were the Americans there? Were the Americans there?
VH: Americans? Oh yeah, they took over because it was a nice place, you see [CB laughs]. Better than where they were! It was all big buildings and they took over and we were put in Nissan huts! [Both laugh].
CB: What did you make of them? Did you, did you get on well with them?
VH: Well we, yeah they were alright [both laugh].
CB: Did you have better food when they were around?
VH: Oh yes, definitely yes. They got the best off [both laugh].
CB: And where were you? Were you in billets again at Lakenheath?
VH: Yeah.
CB: So erm, did you ever have to, you know, live in, with a family or anything like that, or were you always in billets?
VH: Er, in billets or Nissan huts, you know.
CB: Yes.
VH: Yeah.
CB: So, you’re coming towards the end of the war. How did you feel, you know, we’ve just had VE day. How did you feel? You know, was it a relief, or were you, how did you feel?
VH: Well, I don’t know really. I don’t know whether I was [unclear] in the Air Force, but I’d just got married before I came out, you see so –
CB: Right, so where did you meet your wife?
VH: In Nottingham.
CB: At a dance, or?
VH: Pardon?
CB: Was it at a dance? A dance?
VH: Dance?
Other: Where did you meet Mum?
VH: Oh, I was having a drink [both laugh].
CB: And you obviously looked, saw her, and, you know, liked each other. So how long was it before you got married?
VH: Only about six months I think. Yeah, wasn’t long [both laugh]. And I got lovely daughters and a lovely son, he’s passed away bless him, about three year ago innit?
Other: Hmm.
CB: And did you –
VH: I had two lovely children, they certainly looked after me, they still do [both laugh], don’t you chick? Somebody does.
CB: Do you remember getting married, and the rationing?
VH: Oh yes. I had a double wedding. That’s my wife up there.
CB: Oh, that’s lovely. Where did you get married?
VH: Hyson Green, yeah.
CB: Well, she looks very nice with her dress on. So, the rationing didn’t bother you very much?
VH: No. Said ‘are you gonna get married the usual?’ and I says ‘no.’ [Both laugh.]
CB: And where did you live after you were married?
VH: Nottingham, yeah.
CB: And when did the war – was the war finished by then?
VH: Oh yeah, it had finished, yeah.
CB: So you, you came out of the Air Force in –
VH: Out of the Air Force in 1946.
Other: You made your suit though didn’t you?
VH: Hmm.
Other: You made your suit.
VH: Yeah I made my suit.
CB: Oh wow! You made your own wedding suit, that’s –
VH: Yeah because, in that home where, that I was telling you about, there was all different trades, and I went in the tailoring department. I done four years at, four years apprenticeship before I joined the Air Force, so I made my wedding suit.
CB: You kept the skills going [both laugh]. So what did you do when you came out of the RAF?
VH: Er [pause], I went to the co-op [?], I was only there one day, and then, I went to Boots then and I was there for thirty year.
CB: Worked in Boots the chemists?
VH: Yeah.
CB: Oh, what did you do there?
VH: Making medicines and everything [unclear from Other].
CB: Oh.
VH: And then when they stopped making their own medicines, I went on security, and stuff like that.
CB: So you were there for a long time. In Nottingham all the time?
VH: Oh yes –
CB: You settled there.
VH: Never left Nottingham did I? I was at Boots thirty year I was at Boots.
CB: Did you keep in touch in your, you know, your friends and your comrades in the Air Force?
VH: No, no, never kept in touch with any of them.
CB: Although you had good relationships with them all? You didn’t feel –
VH: But we didn’t, we didn’t keep in touch with each other no.
CB: So, your thirty years, what did you – [unclear] didn’t work in those days did they, do your wife, your wife, didn’t work?
VH: My wife? Yeah she was working, yeah.
CB: Did she work?
VH: What was mum now?
Other: Machinist.
VH: Oh, machinist, that’s it [both laugh].
CB: And then you had your children.
VH: Yeah, two lovely children. And my grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, they’re all marvellous to me they are.
CB: What did you feel about how Bomber Command was treated after the war?
VH: In which way?
CB: Well, when Churchill made his speech, he didn’t, after the war, he didn’t mention Bomber Command.
VH: I know.
CB: Because of all the bombing, and –
VH: Yeah.
CB: How did you feel about that? And you’ve only just had your clasp that you’re entitled to. How did you feel, after the war, and how you were –
VH: I don’t think they treated them as they should have been treated, myself, because they’d done a marvellous job.
CB: And you – you’ve gone down, have you seen the memorial in London? Have you gone –
VH: No I haven’t, no.
CB: But you – have you gone back to any of your stations that you’ve been at, because –
Other: We’ve been to Conningsby, we’ve been to a few with you, I’ve taken you to a few haven’t I?
VH: Yeah.
Other: Woodhall Spa we’ve been to.
VH: Yeah.
Other: We’ve been to Scampton now but –
VH: Been to Scampton –
Other: [unclear] did you?
VH: Hmm.
CB: So you, you went back to Scampton recently, I think, when was that?
VH: Yes, er, that was when I had my [papers shuffling].
CB: Your medal. Your medal.
VH: In that book there. [Papers shuffling, pause].
CB: I think, er [pause] ah. And what did you [pause], how did you hear about this, did they get in touch with you?
VH: No, when I moved to here, to Retford, I lost my medals, so I wrote up to administrative ends [?] explained who I was, when I started and when I, when I got demobbed, and they dealt and sent them back, er, sent me a new lot.
CB: And how did you get to go to Scampton? Did they write to you?
Other: A gentleman from Scampton in the RAF came to us here, and said could they present them to him.
CB: Oh. So what did you feel about that?
VH: It was great, wasn’t it?
Other: It was lovely.
VH: All the family went, it was lovely.
Other: It was a very special day, yeah.
VH: Yeah.
CB: They made a fuss of you?
VH: Yeah [laughs].
CB: Well that’s a lovely, lovely thing to remember, isn’t it.
VH: It is, yeah.
Other: And they also presented medals to these gentlemen, they’d just come back from Afghanistan.
CB: It’s lovely. [Pause]. Right Vic, so –
VH: I went, I went out to get the aircraft ready, prepared because there was a raid on, when the crew came out, I was just sitting there, and I’d got this terrible pain, you know, they says ‘come on we want to go,’ and I says ‘I can’t get out!’ So they lifted me out, and they rushed me to Kings Lynn hospital, I got my appendix [laughs].
CB: Do you remember the hospital you were in?
VH: Er [slight pause], no, er, it was Kings Lynn, but I can’t think of the name of the hospital.
CB: And how long were you in there?
VH: I was only in there a couple of week, if that.
CB: It’s quite a long time these days [both laugh]. And then it says you were transferred to Addenbrookes.
VH: Yeah, yeah I had something wrong with my thumb –
CB: Right.
VH: And the Air Force made a mess of it, so I ended up in Addenbrookes to have me nail took off.
CB: So what do you remember about being in hospital?
VH: Not a lot really, well, when I came out I got a fortnight’s holiday, er, was a camp.
CB: What was the food like?
VH: Good [emphasis, both laugh].
CB: So you, they sorted out your appendix problem –
VH: Oh yes.
CB: And then you, you went back. So it was, [pause], that’s some sort of home, admitted to Stowe, erm, I can’t quite read that. Was it just some sort of home that just was like a convalescent home was it?
VH: Yeah.
CB: And you were in there for a little while.
VH: Hmm yeah, two weeks I think [chuckles].
CB: So they certainly looked after the –
VH: They certainly looked after you, yeah.
CB: [Pause]. So you’ve lived in Retford for, how long now?
VH: Ten years now, innit chick? My daughter got me over here so she can look after me [laughs], don’t you chick.
CB: Do you get involved in any Bomber Command, you know, reunions, or?
VH: Oh no –
Other: You’ve started to now.
VH: Started going to a bit now, haven’t we, yeah. Scampton. We’ve been to one or two dos there haven’t we?
Other: Mm.
VH: Where was it that we went the other week?
Other: Woodhall Spa.
VH: Oh yeah we went to Woodhall Spa the other week, at a reunion day.
Other: Scampton last week, and a Lancaster came over.
VH: Yeah [laughs]. The Red Arrows were there, giving a display weren’t they. Lovely.
CB: Well I think, think that’s about it Vic, that’s been very, very interesting.
VH: Thank you very much.
CB: Thank you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Victor Harding
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Clare Bennett
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-05-20
Type
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Sound
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AHardingV150520
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Pending review
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Pending OH summary
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Leading Aircraftsman Victor Harding.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:38:26 audio recording
149 Squadron
627 Squadron
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
fitter airframe
flight mechanic
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
Lancaster
military living conditions
Mosquito
Nissen hut
RAF Bardney
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Kirkham
RAF Marham
RAF Woodhall Spa
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/537/8810/Vera Willis.1.jpg
8d1fedc2c1660f17d81c02f7d9ea19c7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/537/8810/AWillisV150828.1.mp3
9ca81b42329c5c948cbf05d5c5c84248
Dublin Core
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Title
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Willis, Vera
V Willis
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Willis, V
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Vera Willis (2136822 Women's Auxiliary Air Force).
Date
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2015-08-15
2015-08-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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VW: When you get to my age and you’re stuck in one place all the time you get rather sort of ugh don’t you and I love doing things.
HH: Well, Vera, thank you very much for agreeing to talk today to the Bomber Command project.
VW: Not at all. Anything. Anything to do with the air force I’m absolutely willing to do.
HH: So let’s just — thank you. Well that’s just completely wonderful. It’s lovely to meet you and for the purposes of the recording I’m just going to say that it’s the 28th of August 2015 and we’re sitting in Vera Willis’ lounge in Holton Holegate near Spilsby in Lincolnshire.
VW: Yes.
HH: Great. Ok.
VW: That’s super.
HH: And Vera, thank you again for chatting to us today.
VW: Well I’m here.
HH: Because you have so many stories to tell.
VW: Once upon a time.
HH: About your experiences as a WAAF with Bomber Command.
VW: I’ve got so many funny ones.
HH: Before we start off telling about the war itself.
VW: Yes.
HH: Would you like just to tell us a little bit about your younger years?
VW: Yes.
HH: Where you were born and brought up.
VW: Oh yes.
HH: And how come it was that you joined the WAAFs.
VW: Yes.
HH: So, carry on and tell us that.
VW: Right. When do you want me to start? Now?
HH: Yeah.
VW: Well I’ll go, I’ll start from when I went to school. I was born in Alford and then we moved to Thorp St Peter, to the rectory. Father isn’t a parson. He wasn’t a parson or anything. It was just, you know, a normal house. And I have to start from when I left school I suppose, won’t I? So, I left school when I was, I think I was nearly sixteen because I didn’t, I wasn’t, I was a country girl. Father taught me to shoot and I had a horse and I had that sort of beginning.
HH: Wonderful.
VW: It was lovely. But I didn’t want a job as such because I can’t be enclosed. I had to be somewhere where I was being out. Now, funnily enough I went for six months to be a nurse. To Louth Hospital. And that was a dead loss. To me that was hopeless. I mean, it was all wrong, anyway. So, I decided that I’d love to, I loved aeroplanes and I’d like to be in the air force. Well, mother said, ‘Oh darling, you’ll be leaving home,’ blah blah blah and daddy said, ‘What will I do?’ So, I said, ‘Well, never mind. I’m definitely going to be, I’m going in to the air force.’ So I made up my mind. I wrote and I went to Lincoln and I joined up. I said, and the only reason I’ll be in the air force is I’ll drive and I don’t want any indoor sort of — I don’t want a job indoor or anything like that. I want, I want to drive and I love driving. So that’s what they did. I went to Lincoln and I stayed there for quite a long time. I loved every moment of it. The food was marvellous. I loved all the people and I thoroughly enjoyed myself. And then I moved from Lincoln to Dunholme and Fiskerton. That’s a bit. I did, when I was at Dunholme, we used to have to go over the river in a boat that went regularly. It was so that we could go to Lincoln by a train and the station was the other side of the river. And I got there and I never wore a great coat because I hate heavy clothes. And we got half way across and the people that got on were so many and they were all stood one side of the ferry and we went in. Straight in. And having clothes on, I mean I can swim, like, well but I couldn’t and I yelled, ‘Help,’ and I saw somebody dive in from the bridge at the top and I thought, ‘Whizzo, I’m alright.’ But we lost, lost two airmen and it wasn’t very funny. And anyway, they got me out and they got back to the [pause] to my thingy, put me in bed and gave me a bath and rang mum. And not being very far away mother comes hot foot. ‘Trust you,’ she said, ‘Trust you.’ Anyway, that was only one thing that happened. All sorts of strange things happened to me but the — I don’t know. There’s something about the air force that — I’m sure there was something in my last life that was a lot like it because I had a wonderful time and I worked ever so hard and I drove all night and I did all sorts of rescue things but I’ll tell you about those when I, yeah.
HH: So, you started off in Lincoln and then Dunholme.
VW: And then, oh yes, then I went to Dunholme. And Fiskerton comes into it somewhere which is not very far from Dunholme but I was in that area. And in —when I was in Dunholme they had a lovely village and a village shop and the man who had the baker’s shop, you know, the food shop, he had a horse in the field not far away and I said to him one day, I said, ‘Somebody said that was your horse,’ I said, ‘Do you ride it very often?’ And he said, ‘No. I can’t,’ he said, ‘The poor thing,’ he said, ‘He never gets out.’ I said, ‘Well I’ll ride him if you give me the tie. I’ll deal with it and I’ll ride him.’ And I got permission to and I went down to the field and did him up and off we went and that was quite nice. And I stayed at Dunholme for quite a long time. But let me get myself straight. Now where did I go from there? Fiskerton. Where does Fiskerton come in? But I finished off [pause] yes. I can go from there because they had to, they moved you around to sort of get you in a place where you were doing the best. You know. And I loved driving and I didn’t mind driving a long distance and I didn’t mind driving through the night or anything, you know. And then I moved from there to, I think my best bet actually is to East Kirkby.
HH: So then you were stationed at East Kirkby.
VW: Yeah. And from there everything happened.
HH: Tell us about it.
VW: Yes. We [pause] how must — I’ve been going through it so much that I’m getting myself — I’ve got to get it right because it’s a hell of a long time ago.
HH: It is. And it’s fantastic that you remember so much.
VW: Oh, I’ve remembered lots more. From East Kirkby I did an awful lot. We had one or two rather nasty — excuse me, German thingies. They went all down one of the runways and that caused rather a lot of, you know, bother. But what did I do from there?
HH: So is it, is it at East Kirkby that the Germans actually bombed the runway?
VW: Yes. I think so because I remember. I knew the skipper who was — I think he’d just come from somewhere. They’d all come in and I think the Germans followed them in or something because they got out of the way. I don’t think they were any real, sort of — nobody was terribly hurt. I think it was just one of those sort of quick whizzes. But East Kirkby was really very busy and [pause] but I wanted to start from the beginning. You’ll have to come again.
HH: I can. With pleasure.
VW: Let me give you something that’s really sort of [pause] oh yes. Here at Spilsby.
Other 2: Alright. Just keep going.
VW: At Spilsby everything was going beautifully and I was whizzing along. I’d got something in the back of the, of the garry for the sergeant because they have, they are in the caravan at the end of the runway and don’t — and I’d got his tea or his dinner or something or whatever I had. It was for him. And I was tootling along nicely and all of a sudden there was a [whoo] and a sort of wind whizzed through my open windows and skitted by my ear and I got out. A bit like this, out of the van — but I waited. I thought well if anything’s happened and any of the men are hurt I’ll wait here and pick them up and take them back, you see. So anyway, Duncan Lawson, Squadron Leader Lawson who we knew very well — he used to go shooting with daddy. He came around. He said, ‘Vera, what are you doing here?’ So, I said, ‘I’m going to the — taking the food to the sergeant in the — ’ He said, ‘Go back to the — you shouldn’t be here.’ So, I said, ‘Well, what are you doing here then?’ I said, ‘I got here first.’ And he said, ‘Do as I say.’ I said, ‘I will. I’ll see you later.’ ‘Cause I knew him ever so well and he was very bossy on thingy and he went and picked them up and he got all the — you know.
HH: The credit.
VW: Oh yes.
HH: So, had there been an explosion?
VW: Oh yeah. They had one of the [pause] they were doing one of the thingies up, you know, and getting them ready.
HH: Yes.
VW: And turned the thing around the wrong way and the bloody thing went up in the air. it was terrific. I mean, I wondered what had hit us. I sort of sat there and I was quite ready and I thought, ‘Oh the poor boys,’ and I was all ready to pick them up but no. I didn’t get a chance so I went straight to the hospital and I was there and I said, ‘I’ve come to help you because I know there will be one of the boys, or some of the boys will be badly hurt,’ because, you know, they were quite close. And, so I stayed there and I said, anything I can do? I’ll be with you in the operating theatre. Anything you like. And I stayed there and helped them and quite a few people came in. Some of the girls came, sat in the van, the garage and just sat there. I said, ‘What the hell are you doing sitting there. Come in and help.’ ‘Oh no. We’re not going in there.’ Honestly. We did come across some funnies. Honestly. And I had, I don’t know what father thought because we only lived a little way away and our rectory at Little Steeping was just like from here to the bottom of the drive and poor daddy, ‘I hope Vera’s alright.’ But they might have known I was alright. I mean I always managed to scrape out of all sorts of funny —
HH: Yeah.
VW: Position.
HH: Yeah. And was it, Vera, when you were at East Kirkby that you got to drive some quite remarkable people around?
VW: Oh yes. And I did and I would have loved to done more about it but I had to pick up this bloke and I picked him up and I can remember going through East Kirkby and I said, ‘Who are you?’ You know, ‘Would you tell me who you are?’ And he said, ‘Yes, I’m Mussolini’s son.’ Now, I’ve got really worried about that. How could he possibly be but he looked sort of, he did, he just —
HH: Extraordinary.
VW: But I can’t even remember where I dropped him off but I picked him up on the airfield so he must have been somebody that somebody knew something about. And he was only — he wasn’t very old. But how could he have been Mussolini’s son?
HH: What a puzzle. And was it also at East Kirkby when you took a rather important person to Gibraltar Point?
VW: Oh yes. Yes.
HH: Tell us about it.
VW: Yes. We took him up to — it was for the bomb. You know the [pause] to see how, when they dropped the thingy if that —
HH: It was the bouncing bomb wasn’t it?
VW: Yes.
HH: Yes.
VW: And they went up there to sort of do some try outs and thingies.
HH: And how did you discover who it was that you were driving?
VW: Oh, because they, they told me. Yeah.
HH: And it was Barnes Wallis.
VW: Yes. And I’m sure it was Barnes Wallis but [pause] because there was everybody there doing the thing. All of the talk of the — everybody was —
HH: So, you also would have then witnessed those tests wouldn’t you?
VW: Yes. I did all sorts of things. I just kept my mouth shut. I mean they knew whatever they wanted me to do I’d do which I did and I didn’t ask questions.
HH: And you had a bit more to do with the squadron which was finally involved with the Dambusters raid because you knew Guy Gibson.
VW: Yes.
HH: So, tell us about that.
VW: Well, how did I know Guy Gibson? It just happened. And I drove them. I took them into Lincoln. And — I don’t know. I just, I was always around. I was there when I was needed because I just loved doing things that, you know. And I, and I loved that dog.
HH: So, you knew the dog as well.
VW: Ahum. Yeah. And somebody let him out and he was killed on the road and everybody cried. Poor old boy.
HH: Yeah.
VW: Silly me.
HH: Well it was a big thing wasn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.
VW: I’ve got loads of things to tell you. I really have. And I can’t. Where am I now? I’m at East Kirkby now aren’t I?
HH: Yes. Yes.
VW: Sorry. Forgive me.
Other: Oh you silly sausage.
HH: Well these memories are very strong.
Other: They [pause] you still remember them going off, don’t you? In the evenings.
VW: Oh, I met —
Other: And other things. And you always used to say some of them — they knew that they weren’t coming back didn’t they?
VW: Oh yes. I used to drive them to the kites at night. You know. To go on. That really —
Other: To their sorties.
VW: I didn’t enjoy that.
Other: No.
VW: And they would give me letters and things to post and tell me about their wives and their children. And you’d wait. One night, somebody I liked very much and we had, we had a place where we could iron our trousers and I ironed mine every night. I liked to be smart and there were lace curtains in this room and the window was open and I was thinking about him and I thought, ‘Oh gosh I do hope he’s ok and he’ll come back,’ and all of a sudden, the curtains went [whoo]. Like that. And I knew he wouldn’t come back. And the sort of [pause] things were felt very deeply in those days. You didn’t sort of brush things off and I didn’t have anyone that I was really sort of, I wasn’t silly enough to fall in love with anyone that was flying because that was sheer and utter misery but I knew this person because I knew he was married and he was very fond of his wife and his children. You were involved in so much, how can I say — ?
HH: Heartache.
VW: You took on a lot of people’s worries. Especially when you were driving because they would talk to you and tell you all sorts of things that really meant an awful lot. They knew that you would never sort of, you know. They talked to you and it would never come back. But it was a very emotional time because you took on an awful lot of private stories and worries. Anyway, let me tell you about the fun things. Now, let me think.
Other: You used to have parties down — because mum lived with her mum and dad at Little Steeping rectory.
VW: Oh. Yes. I used to come. Well we had tennis courts you see and father put a notice in the officer’s mess and said that if any of them wanted to come down and play tennis. And some of the boys used to come down because we had a lovely pub and they used to come down to the pub and they used to pop in and mum would make them a cup of tea and it was, it was a very happy place and they could come from [pause] from —
Other: Spilsby.
VW: No. Down the river to come from [pause] oh crikey the next village to us. And come down the river to us at Little Steeping.
Other: Yeah. Great Steeping.
VW: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Is that rectory still there?
Other: Yeah.
HH: Is the house still there?
Other: Yes.
VW: Oh Yes. Yes. Oh we had some lovely times. And mummy used to play the violin in the garden and the cows and the sheep used to come and there was a big hedge and you’d see a row of cow’s heads and mummy was there sort of playing the violin. Honestly. And they never took a photograph and we should have done because it was hilarious. And the boys used to say, ‘Elizabeth,’ mum, ‘Come and play the violin. See if the cows will come up,’ and they did. Stupid, silly things.
Other: But mum used to bike didn’t you? From home to the —
VW: I cycled because mummy was very ill and I was stationed at East Kirkby and I cycled form East Kirkby to Little Steeping every morning and every night until one day the little man who collected the letters and things — he had a, oh what do you call it? A three-wheeler. Oh.
HH: Sort of tricycle.
Other: Motorbike.
VW: Yes. A motorbike.
HH: Oh motorbike.
VW: Yes and he’d stop and he’s say, ‘Come on Vera. We’ll get your bike on here somehow,’ he said, ‘I’ll take you. I can’t see you going up that hill again.’
Other: Motorbike and sidecar.
VW: That’s right.
Other: Yeah.
VW: Yes. Yeah. And so we tootled and he was ever so good and mum used to have something already hot and ready for him. Coming to do it for me. But I did it for a week. It nearly killed me ‘cause I had to come up the hill.
Other: And then you —
VW: And I took the short cut.
Other: Yeah. And then you were transferred to Spilsby weren’t you?
VW: Then I came to — I had a whale of a time at Spilsby because I lived at home.
Other: So —
HH: Fantastic.
Other: Have you said anything about the bomb dump going up in Spilsby?
VW: Yes. Yes.
HH: That was Spilsby. Yeah.
VW: Gosh. It was a bit of a shock though. It was a hell of a bang.
Other: They lost eleven ground crew didn’t they?
VW: Yes. They did.
Other: Yeah.
VW: No. There were only three killed. There was three killed.
Other: I thought they lost eleven.
VW: No. No. I don’t think so.
HH: Yes. It’s a terrible thing though isn’t it?
VW: Well it was something that was ready and waiting to happen ‘cause all they did was to turn the fuse the wrong way on and it just sort of —
HH: Yeah.
VW: One bloke went into little pieces.
HH: Exploded. Yeah.
VW: Not funny. But anyway, we got through all sorts of things at Steeping. At East Kirkby. All sorts of odd things happened. You know. But —
HH: So, you, can I just go back and ask. You were, it sounds like you spent quite a lot of your time in the WAAFs at East Kirkby and then Spilsby. Is that right?
VW: Yes. East Kirkby was first because I was quite a long time at Lincoln and I —
HH: Before that. Ok.
VW: And I was posted. I can’t remember. I’ve been trying to remember if I was posted to Dunholme and Fiskerton. The only thing that I remembered was that I was nearly drowned in the [laughs]
HH: Trent.
Other: Yeah. Going over Dunham Bridge.
VW: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: What? So, what was the incident you had to get under the truck. You were having, cooking sausages.
VW: Oh yes. Well this was, this was when I was, now let me think now because there was one or two times when I —
Other: Well it was down the bottom of the —
VW: It was at the bottom of the runway. There was a caravan at the bottom of the runway and I was tootling along. Oh, this was, yes, I had to go back again because Duncan made me go back from what I was doing and I went down there and then I went back and picked up some food for the sergeant on the runway. And he came out and it just happened he turned around and he was standing in the, in the doorway with a frying pan in his hand. He’d been cooking some sausages [laughs] and then, oh this was when the aircraft was bombing the runway.
Other: Yeah.
VW: That’s right. Oh, that’s a different time. That’s right. Yes. We both finished off underneath the caravan.
Other: He was still holding his frying pan with those sausages wasn’t he?
VW: Yeah.
Other: But yeah. Mum just pulled up and he was at the door and —
VW: Yeah.
Other: The aircraft came over and machine gun fire and mum and him were underneath the caravan.
VW: We were. Yes. We were. Those sorts of things went by and you didn’t worry. It was part of the way of living. You know. There were lots and lots of silly, silly things. What else was there?
Other: Well they used to ring you up and you used to end up going on long drives didn’t you? With the —
VW: Yes. I used to have to go down south. I used to have to go. Probably, oh I’d start out at midnight to take somebody down south. I can’t remember the places but a heck of a long way away it was. In the dark and you got to know the places so well that you didn’t really worry. I mean it didn’t bother me. Night driving.
HH: And how did you find your way Vera because a lot of places.
VW: Oh we did.
HH: The places of villages and things were all removed weren’t they?
HH: Yeah. But there were a lot of signs. They were very good. And you had — they did their best to give you a sort of, a help. If we had the marvellous things we have today to get us to places we would have been fine wouldn’t we? But we had to sort of just hope we were on the right road. We managed it. And the people we took were very good because they knew we were tired when we got to where we were going and they found — because there were also places for the WAAF’s and the army. For the women to go if they were, you know, what do they call them?
Other: When you were on to stay.
Yes. And —
Other: Billets.
VW: And we were always sort of given the help. They gave you what they could. They helped you to get to where you were going but you managed it. It’s surprising what you did manage actually but you had to come back alone which wasn’t very funny because there’d be all sorts of upheavals and things and planes coming over but you took everything as a matter of course. I mean if anything funny happened you just crossed your fingers and hoped for the best and said, ‘Please God get me home.’ And that was it. But you didn’t think about it because the boys were killing themselves, weren’t they? Doing the best they could. So we had to do the best we could, didn’t we?
HH: Indeed.
VW: And I’d go back and do it tomorrow. I would.
Other: But you used to drive the tractors with the bombs on, didn’t you? And go and —
VW: Oh. Yes. Yes. Well they used to get the aircraft from the, from the —
Other: Hangars.
VW: Out of the —where they keep them.
Other: Hangars.
VW: Yeah. Now, this [pause] I was, I was driving the tractor and I was pulling this aircraft. There was an awful lot of whatsit between us. And Violet was yelling at me from the top, saying, ‘Don’t go that way Tommy. Go the other way.’ ‘Not that way.’ ‘Go to the left not to the right.’ And there was a taut thing and if it had, I mean if it had gone it would have whipped my neck off. We did all sorts of amazing things. I mean we bombed up. Put, this we nearly finished up nearly in a dyke. I stopped and the aircraft kept coming but managed to stop in time but that was rather sort of hmmn. But yes, where was I? Now then.
Other: You were going to say about when you bombed up.
VW: Oh yes.
Other: The bombs.
VW: Yes. Cookies. You would take a whole load of cookies and incendiaries and things. I mean if you’d gone over a bump and one had fallen off it, well it would have been curtains wouldn’t it? But we used to take those around as if they were bits of nothing. It was amazing. Honestly. And when I look back and what we did do. But a lot of the girls didn’t like driving and I was pleased because I got all of the nice tricky jobs I did.
Other: You enjoyed driving.
VW: Yeah. I did. And the more difficult they were the better I liked them.
Other: Just a little ditty if I could.
VW: Yeah. And honestly I’d still love to go back. If I could take, get some of my life back — if I could get another fifty years back and there was a war on I’d go tomorrow.
Other: When I took mum to the Spilsby aircraft —
VW: Oh, it was marvellous.
Other: Commemoration of the new memorial a couple of years ago mum was asked to put a wreath on and I was sitting in the stands and I was sat next to an elderly gentleman and he said to me, he said, ‘I know that lady,’ he said, ‘That’s Tommy Tomlinson.’ And I looked at him and I said, ‘It is Tommy Tomlinson.’ ‘My God,’ he said, ‘I would know her anywhere. She hasn’t changed a bit.’ Bearing in mind it’s seventy years.
VW: Oh no.
Other: And it turned out that he was the little lad that used to live at the local shop a little way up from where mum lived.
HH: Gosh.
Other: And he told me he could still remember her cycling every morning to go to the camp in her uniform. And, yeah, Tommy Tomlinson. And they all remember her as Tommy.
VW: And then the lovely man in the wheelchair. We had a little —
Other: Yeah. We went to —
VW: That was lovely wasn’t it?
Other: We went to the three Lancs get together at East Kirkby.
VW: Yeah.
Other: And mum was invited as a VIP because of her veteran status.
VW: Yeah.
Other: And we were walking along and a lady had heard me saying that mum was in 207 Squadron and a gentleman in a wheelchair that she was pushing, he said, ‘Oh. Oh,’ he said, ‘My God,’ he said, ‘It’s Tommy. It’s Tommy.’
VW: I had a big hug.
Other: They hugged in wheelchairs a
VW: Yeah.
Other: And they reminisced and he, he’s ninety six and he hasn’t seen her since she was stationed here.
HH: Amazing.
Other: And he still recognised her. And I think that’s pretty marvellous.
HH: It is indeed.
VW: Oh I’d love.
Other: What other things can you remember? What —
VW: Oh, I can remember so many things. I lay in bed at night and go back.
Other: You met, you met dad on Spilsby didn’t you?
VW: Yes. Yeah.
HH: Tell us about that.
Other: Tell us how you met dad.
VW: I wasn’t particularly enamoured with him at first because he was a bit sort of — you know — I didn’t.
Other: The first time you saw him he came to get some petrol one night, didn’t he?
VW: Oh, this was — no. This was at another aerodrome. Ages ago. Where was I? I must have been at Dunholme and he was in his private car and he wanted some petrol and it was midnight and I remember, I remember doing my hair that day differently and I was ever so pleased with myself and it was, it was midnight almost. I was on night duty but I had to look smart, you know, and he came in to the, he came in to the office and he said could he have some petrol. So I had to ask the sergeant if it was ok if he had some petrol. And he said, ‘Take him Tommy and see that he does,’ you know. Gets what he wants.
Other: Yeah.
VW: And, oh, we just said, ‘Hello,’ and ‘How are you?’ and how’s your father and we said goodbye, good night and I didn’t see him any more for ages. And then I saw him again one day and he said, ‘I know you don’t I?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. Do you? ‘Cause I wasn’t particularly bothered about men. I was enjoying myself doing things, you know. And I didn’t like to get interest in any of the flying types because it was asking for trouble that was. But I had some nice boyfriends.
Other: So, what, what happened then? When he, when he met you again?
VW: Oh, when he met me again, yes. I think we sat in the big, sat in the garry with me and we talked. But the time I really met him properly was at the Revesby Show. And I’d been up to London and I’d been to this place and ordered a load of super stuff. Shooting stuff and from one of these big shops.
Other: Shows.
VW: For the show. And poor daddy had to deal with it. Anyway, and some friends came up and they were with Bill. And he said, ‘Hello Vera.’ I said, ‘Hello dear.’ He said, ‘Would you like to walk around the reservoir.’ And I said, ‘Not particularly but I will if you want to.’ So we walked around the reservoir and talked.
Other: ‘Cause was that the time that he said that he was going to marry you?
VW: Probably. One or two of them said that and I wasn’t interested thank you.
Other: So, what —
VW: And then, then, oh he came to Steeping. We got together and we found we liked one another and, you know.
Other: It was just funny that you happened to be stationed at the same aerodrome.
VW: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: So were you married during the war? Or —
VW: No.
HH: Or after the war.
VW: After the war. No. That’s asking for trouble. No. No, I filled in my time doing really interesting things. I got nearly killed two or three times but I mean that was ok. They didn’t manage it quite. But —
HH: And so, Vera tell us how you got to fly over Germany.
VW: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. One day I walked into the MT office and the officer said, ‘Tommy I’ve got some news for you.’ So I said, ‘What’s that?’ And he said, ‘Would you like to fly over Germany?’ I said, ‘Yes please. When?’ So, he said, ‘Well the CO has had notice to say that any of the drivers who have been really super,’ because we worked really hard, and would they like a trip over Germany? It was over [pause] not right in to Germany. What was name of the place? Anyway, and I said, ‘Yes please. I’d love to.’ So they rang up and said would I go down two or three days later and get my [pause] –
Other: Flying gear.
HH: Flying gear.
VW: Yeah.
HH: Parachute.
VW: Parachute. Yeah.
Other: Parachute.
VW: So, I sat outside the thingy waiting and they brought it for me and I went off the same day and nobody else wanted to go. ‘No. No. No. We don’t want to go flying thank you very much. No.’ Lily livered lot. Oh no. Nobody else wanted to go and I thought what a marvellous thing to do. But I’d done lots of trips. I flew quite a lot because I used to take them in the garry and they’d say, ‘Come on Tommy. We’re only going across to do a survey for about two hours just to test everything for the night.’ And a lot of the girls used to go. Nobody knew of course. We used to hide. Hide in the garry. Wherever we could. And one day we went and we were doing a lovely, a super, it was a really lovely ride and the weather was marvellous and I was in the front turret and it was really nice. And suddenly the skipper said, ‘Bloody hell,’ he said the — whatsits won’t come down.
Other: Flaps.
VW: ‘The flaps won’t come down,’ and we couldn’t —
Other: Land.
HH: Land. Yeah.
VW: So we were circling away and everything. And I thought oh bully for us. How do I get get down? I haven’t got a parachute. Yeah. I didn’t bother. I mean I wasn’t really that bothered. It got a bit, sort of — anyway, eventually they did and there’s a photograph somewhere of me coming down out of the aircraft and sitting on the grass like that. I was so pleased to be on terra firma that I didn’t realise that we got down alright. And that’s the only time. But I used to, I did quite a lot of flying that way but we always managed to come down alright. And what else? What else? There’s something else on the back of my mind.
HH: You mentioned earlier that you had met Ian Smith.
VW: Yes. Mr Smith.
HH: Was that through driving as well? Was that through your work as driving.
VW: Yes. I was driving it. Yeah. Yes. He was in my garry. Yes. I picked him up. I can remember where I picked him up with somebody else. Yes. Oh yes. That is definite. Because I didn’t know who he was until later on. He was ever so nice. But you got all sorts of jobs that you don’t remember because they happened quickly and you had to sort of get cracking and do they wanted to do and it didn’t really register until later. But oh, I’d go back tomorrow. I would. Honestly. I really would. I won’t be able to now will I?
Other: So what —
HH: Well you can do it in your —
VW: In the next life I can.
HH: You can do it in your thoughts.
VW: Oh, I do. All sorts of things.
Other: What [pause] what other special things happened at — when they had special sorties that they had to d? There was a lot of the Lancs, a lot of the squadrons went out on the big shouts didn’t they?
VW: Oh yes. You’d get, you’d get quite a lot of them but they didn’t do it too often because you lost too many kites doing it that way. If you, if you sort of sent out, they used to have big raids but they found that it wasn’t really very clever because the —
Other: Losses were too high.
VW: The Germans would send out their — yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They had some really ropey dos. The really did.
Other: Did you often get the Germans come here to bomb?
VW: Oh yes. Oh, they used to have a lovely time. They never did any good though.
Other: And at Spilsby and East Kirkby.
VW: Yeah. I remember East Kirkby because I had a great friend. He was absolutely super. Now, he came from South Africa and he’d lived there for a long time. He was white. He wasn’t a South African and he had a terrific sense of humour and I remember he was on duty that night when they came over and he said, ‘I’ll pay them back.’ I forget what he did but he bombed somewhere. They bombed somewhere and gave it a hell of a do, you know, with that feeling behind it. Oh, he came to Steeping to see me. I think he brought his son and I remember seeing him walking up the drive. Now that’s — I haven’t thought about that for ages. And I can’t even remember his name but he was ever so jolly and ever such a nice person but he came to England to see some relatives or something and he came to see us.
Other: How lovely.
VW: Yeah. Bill was ever so pleased to see him. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: So, after the war when you returned to civilian life did you continue living in Steeping then?
VW: What did I — I didn’t really do a lot. I was at home.
HH: But was it in Steeping?
Other: Yeah. You still lived with your mum and dad at Steeping. At the rectory. Didn’t you?
VW: Oh yes.
Other: After you’d left the air force.
VW: Oh mum and I did all sorts of things. I played tennis a lot.
Other: But you also went to London to do some modelling didn’t you?
VW: Oh yes. Yes, I did.
Other: With your sister. After the war.
VW: Yes. I did. I did. Yes.
Other: And then you trained as a hairdresser didn’t you?
VW: Yes. Oh. Yes. I did. I did. And mummy had three hairdressing salons and I just had a natural sort of something for it and I used to go down occasionally and do a bit here and there and then I bought a business. I had a big double fronted shop. And —
Other: It’s on Roman Bank in Skegness.
VW: And a successful business it was too.
HH: In Skegness.
Other: Yeah. Yeah. Called du Barry wasn’t it?
VW: Du Barry. Yeah. Double fronted. And I had a peacock in the window. And a lady came in one day in the summer and she said, ‘That’s my Henry.’
Other: This woman remembered her peacock.
VW: And she remembered her peacock. There was something about him that she remembered. So I said, ‘Well I’m taking care of it.’ I think it finished up at the 30 Club. They bought it when I sold the business. But I did, I did very very well. I don’t know if it’s —
Other: But you always remember your war years don’t you? You, always, with great, great happiness and great sadness. Mixed feelings really.
VW: Yeah. I’m really, really — I was thrilled to bits when I knew you were coming.
HH: Well it’s such a, it’s just so lovely to be able to sit here and hear all these memories.
VW: Anything I can do now, if there is anything I can do.
HH: Well I’ve —
VW: Wherever you want me I’ll go.
HH: Well Vera what I would suggest to you is that we can, we can pause the interview now because one of the things that tends to happen actually is that when people start remembering they don’t, they can’t stop.
Other: No.
HH: So —
VW: They can’t stop what?
Other: Remembering.
HH: Remembering.
VW: Oh no. No.
HH: And so, I think that one of the things that might happen is that you will start remembering a lot more than you ever thought you could. Having had this conversation.
VW: Yes. I probably will. Only I’ve been worried.
HH: And we can come back and do another one.
VW: I’ve been really worried because I’ve known — I don’t know —
HH: Well what —
VW: I remember bits and I remember ever so much more than I’ve told you today because it just hasn’t come back.
HH: It will though and so we can come back and talk some more.
VW: Yes.
HH: So, shall I say thank you very much for the moment.
VW: Yeah.
HH: And we’ll switch the tape off.
VW: Yeah.
HH: But we’ll carry on where we’ve left off.
VW: Yes.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Vera Willis
Description
An account of the resource
Vera Willis nee Tomlinson volunteered for the Women's Auxiliary Air Force because she wanted to be a driver. Her driving career in the RAF involved driving long distances as well as driving aircrew to dispersal. Some crew gave her letters for safekeeping or to post.
Creator
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Heather Hughes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-28
Contributor
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Julie Williams
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:44:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWillisV150828
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Pending review
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Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
207 Squadron
animal
bomb dump
bombing up
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Spilsby
service vehicle
tractor
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/557/8824/PSpenceWD1601.1.jpg
f41d6f2ffc71ce26b0e5bac37a372ee5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/557/8824/ASpenceWD160315.2.mp3
8d662bd3160f26b9e16cc2c021985d2f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/557/8824/PSpenceWD1604.1.jpg
ae50c2f149381fee84ca1c50b1ae3d15
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/557/8824/PSpenceWD1603.1.jpg
de1547eb5b4832cf11aa39802921c132
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Spence, Bill
William John Duncan Spence
W J D Spence
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Spence, WD
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Bill Spence (b. 1923, 153645 Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 44 Squadron. After the war he wrote of his experiences of the bombing war as Duncan Spence, Westerns as Jim Bowden, and Romantic Fiction under the name of Jessica Blair.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Ok. So today is Tuesday the 15th of March 2016 and this is Annie Moody for the International Bomber Command Centre and today, I’m in Ampleforth with Bill Spence. And Bill’s daughter is also here so if an extra voice appears on the recording, that’s who it is. So thanks for taking part Bill, that’s really good of you, and to start with, can you, can I just have a little bit of background about, about you? So date of birth, where you were born, what your parents did, that sort of thing.
WS: Yes, I was born in 1923 in Middlesbrough. My father was a teacher there, he had originated in Ampleforth, where I’m living now, so my education took place there, and the war broke out. And I was seventeen and about to go to teacher training college down in London, and that was still going through, and I went to the training college at Strawberry Hill, Twickenham and everything was going through fine but we had, the course was only going to be two years.
AM: Right. Can I just ask what made you go to Twickenham if you were from Middlesbrough?
WS: Well I applied to go on a teacher training course and I can’t really remember how it came to be Twickenham except that, in all probability, it was maybe done through the parish in Middlesbrough, because it was a Roman Catholic teaching college.
AM: Right.
WS: So I went there, and the course, which should have been three years, if not four, was clipped to two years in order to fit in with our military training.
AM: Ok.
WS: Right. Well then, I did the first year, started on the second year, when we were told that we would only be able to complete it if we did military training of some kind or another, whilst we were still at college for our last year. So the college started an Army Corps and Air Force training and we could have a pick which we wanted to do [laughs], so I picked to do aircrew training, knowing nothing whatever about it. And so we started to do what would have been the ITW course, which was the first course for aircrew if you went straight into the Air Force and we did that course alongside our teacher training.
AM: Right. Who were the, who were the teachers who did it then? Did you do it at the college or did you go somewhere else to do it?
WS: No, we did it at the college but the course had been drafted in through the RAF and so we got RAF personnel.
AM: Right.
WS: Coming over and giving us lectures on various aspects of the, that particular course and at the end of our, end of our term at the training college, we had to sit an RAF, RAF exam along with our teacher training exams. Now if we passed the RAF training that we’d done there, we’d obviously done the ITW course that we would have done if we’d gone straight in to the RAF. So I did, I did pass it, so that when I went home on leave from college, within, what would it be? Maybe a month certainly, certainly no more than a month, I got the papers to report to RAF in London on such and such a date, so I went down there and then I was shuffled around by the RAF until very soon afterwards, I was on my way to Canada for aircrew training.
AM: Right.
WS: Right.
AM: So tell me about Canada then. How did you get there, first of all, because what year would we be now? Nineteen forty —
WS: Well I was at the teacher training college from ‘40 to ’42.
AM: Right.
WS: So it would be July ‘42 I would think.
AM: Right.
WS: When I actually went into the RAF proper.
AM: Can I just ask you something before we go onto that? So in, in ‘40, ‘41, ’42, you’re in London, doing your training.
WS: Yes.
AM: What was that like as a civilian while the war was going on around you?
WS: Oh, the bombing. Oh, the bombing. Well the first, our first contact with that was the fact that when we went to Strawberry Hill College, part of it had been hit by German bombs and so that part of the college was not in use, and so we were all a bit more crowded together and actually made a lot of bunk beds. They were in the basement of the college for us to sleep in and of course, being in London, you were aware of the bombing going on in other parts of London, but I don’t know, we just coped with it.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Got on with it. This was life as it was then.
AM: Never got a near miss or anything?
WS: No, not really.
AM: Because you’re out, you’re about twelve miles outside —
WS: Yeah.
AM: The centre of London.
WS: Yeah. Yes.
AM: In Twickenham.
WS: Yes. But I mean, we were aware of the destruction there because we used to go in to London, and go to the London Palladium and this, that and the other, and so you were aware of it, yes.
AM: Yeah.
WS: You saw evidence of the bombing.
AM: Right. So the training. You’ve gone back down to London.
WS: Yeah.
AM: And I think you said they shuffled you around a bit.
WS: Yeah. Yes. From there we went to Brighton for a short stay of about, certainly no more than a month, and then we were paraded and said the postings are as follows, and we were shuffled off to Heaton Park in Manchester.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Which was a very big Air Force depot and there were a number of sites, so that we went on to one particular site, but the interesting thing about it was that, I mean, I don’t know how many Air Force people would be there, but it would be a lot, because there were so many different sites, but we all ate in one place, which was on a slight hill in the middle of Heaton Park and ate some of the best food I had in the RAF.
AM: Really.
WS: Yeah, and there was no waiting, it was all sort of organised. Ok, there was a queue to get your food, but you went in a queue and it was divided like that. Some went that way, some went that way and got the plates and food was put on it and off you went, and as I say it was some of the best food I had in the RAF. Well, then I got messed about a bit because they paraded one day and my name was called out. One or two others, who I didn’t know, and you see I’d gone to, I’d gone with the lads that were at training college with me, who had passed like I had done. And my name was called out and I had to report to somewhere in Shropshire, I’ve forgotten the name now, and went down there and feeling pretty miserable because I’d lost all my pals. And then one day, my name was called out again and they said, ‘Get yourself back to Heaton Park.’ So [laughs] I went back to Heaton Park, reported in to whereever I’d been told to report in to, and I was shuffled off to a billet and that was it.
AM: What had you been doing in Shropshire? What did you do while you were there?
WS: Painting stones.
AM: Oh right.
WS: Right.
AM: Because?
WS: Mark the paths out.
AM: Right.
WS: In the dark you see. Crazy. Doing something for, something for us to do, that’s what it really was, because I got the impression they really don’t know what to do with us [laughs]
AM: In between the bits of training.
WS: Yeah. Yeah, that’s right.
AM: ‘Cause up to now its general training that you’ve done.
WS: Yes.
AM: So, except we’d done Air Force training up to ITW standard.
WS: Right. Yes.
AM: We’d passed that of course.
WS: But general. It’s not about your individual training, Navigator, Bomb aimer, whatever, that’s to come.
AM: Not yet. Not yet. That’s to come, that’s to come.
WS: So I was back in Manchester, to Heaton Park, virtually knowing nobody amongst all these people that were there, you see, and then I was enquiring from the corporal that was in charge of our little lot, ‘What’s going to happen to us? What am I going to do? Where am I going?’ and he hadn’t an answer. And then an officer paraded us one day and there was, there would be about twenty of us, and he went through, but he had a list of long personnel, and when he finished there was about twenty of us not on the list. I could have walked out of Heaton Park then and nobody would have known where I was.
AM: But you didn’t.
WS: I didn’t. I pestered them then.
AM: So they just lost a little cohort from the records.
WS: Yeah. Virtually. Virtually. Yes. There, I shouldn’t be saying this should I? But then I went for, I think it was lunch one day, and as I said, I had to go to this centre place, and when I got up there, here’s all me pals from Shropshire come up. I said, ‘Hey, what are you lot doing here?’, ‘Oh, we’re posted overseas, on aircrew training’. I said, ‘What?’ So I then, I went then and made a real nuisance of myself until they said, ‘Righto, we’ll put you back on that course’, so I got back on the course with them. And within, what would it be? Certainly within a fortnight, we were heading up to the Clyde and a ship.
AM: So up to Scotland.
WS: Ye, up to Scotland, on to board ship.
AM: What was the ship like?
WS: It was —
AM: Big one. Little one. How many of you?
WS: Oh [laughs] I don’t know how many there were, but it was crowded because there were, there were postings to various parts. Well, we were all going to Moncton in Canada, before we were diverted off elsewhere but there were, there were some civilians on board that were going back to America, and it was on the RMS Andes, which had just been built as a, well, I presume it would be a cruise ship, but it was a holiday vessel but it never got on to that. We had bunks in the, somewhere or other, one of the halls or somewhere. Of course, we were given various jobs to do and I was lucky again, because I’d palled up with a lad by this time and we got, we got allocated to sweep out the hospital on the ship, and of course, there was nobody in it. [laughs] So until we heard, and then we saw him, that when we were still anchored in the Clyde, this chappie, one night, had been walking around the ship and he’d gone straight out of a door - psst.
AM: In to the water.
WS: Fortunately he was spotted and they pulled him out but they put him into the hospital, on board the ship and he was the only [laughs], he was the only occupation that was there when we were sweeping up. So we swept up and then we, my pal and I were finished. We spent all that voyage sat on the deck huddled together because it was January.
AM: Cold.
WS: And he and I huddled each other to keep each other warm, because if we went down below decks, you just felt sick.
AM: So it’s January. It’s cold and rough seas and everything.
WS: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It was rough as well. January, yes, it was cold. And as I say we used to sit, every morning we got up, swept up, came out on deck and then, ‘It’s your turn to go to the canteen. Get some tins of pears and biscuits’. And that’s what we lived on for, we couldn’t, we could not stick going down to have a proper meal, so sickly, there we are. Still it was a good voyage. Rough, but —
AM: How long was it?
WS: Hmmn?
AM: How long was it? How long did it take?
WS: I think it took us ten days.
AM: Right.
WS: I think it was ten days, because it was so rough for one thing. In fact, we lost a couple of life boats and we lost because they turned the ships into armed as well, and so we lost a couple of guns as well. It was so rough, but we made it. So we were then taken to a depot at Moncton in New Brunswick, awaiting posting, and I kept my fingers crossed because I wanted to go as far West in Canada as possible, and they started to make the postings to various training places across Canada, and they started in the East with the surname, beginning with A. And they worked through the alphabet so that I was watching, I’m going further West, further West being Spence, and I finished up in Alberta, within sight of the Rockies. Just what I wanted.
AM: Is that why you wanted to be West?
WS: Yeah.
AM: For the Rockies and the scenery and all the rest of it.
WS: Yeah. Yes. I think it was a five days journey on the train then, and then I finished up, then being posted to a little place called Bowden, about eighty miles north of Calgary and did me, because I was training to be a pilot, you see, but I crashed a Tiger Moth, so they took me off the pilot’s course.
AM: When you say you were training to be a pilot.
WS: Yeah.
AM: At what point did they decide that they wanted you to be a pilot, in the beginning? In the first place. Was that while you were still in England or when you got to Canada?
WS: I suppose they, I can’t honestly remember, but I suppose that they’d assessed me on my earlier training, when I was at college with the ITW course, and probably they were wanting pilots as well. I don’t know.
AM: So you came, you came out top of, top of the cream because everybody wanted to be a pilot.
WS: Oh yeah. Yeah. We did. We did you see, I mean, we all imagined ourselves flying Spitfires.
AM: Yeah. Biggles.
WS: But in actual fact, I mean, it’s ok but being wise after the event and being lucky enough to have survived, in actual fact, I always look back and think that that was my best stroke of luck, was being taken off the pilot’s course and sent to be a bomb aimer because if I’m going to be a bomb aimer, apart from one or two training posts, where you would be an instructor, I was more likely to finish up on a bomber squadron. And as I found out, that was the only life worth living in —
AM: Right.
WS: In the RAF.
AM: Ok.
WS: To be on a squadron. On a squadron.
AM: Right. On the pilot thing though, you said you’d in a, I’ve forgotten what you said now, a Gypsy Moth.
WS: Tiger Moth.
AM: Tiger Moth, I beg your pardon.
WS: Yeah.
AM: So what happened in the Tiger Moth then?
WS: Well I don’t think I were, I don’t think I was all that good as a pilot, but no, I mean I flew solo and did a few acrobatics on my own and so on and so forth, and I did a cross country flight on my own. Had to fly the eighty miles down to Calgary, land there and get turned around and fly back, and so on and so forth. Yeah, I got, got on quite well but I landed one day and made a blooming mistake and ground looped and the Tiger Moth finished up on its nose and I suppose that, coupled with maybe I didn’t have the zip to be a pilot. But it didn’t bother me actually.
AM: Did it not? You weren’t bothered when they said —
WS: No. No, I wasn’t bothered and all. I knew then that I was going to be posted to be a bomb aimer.
AM: Right. How did they decide you were going to be a bomb aimer? Do you know? Or is —
WS: No.
AM: No.
WS: No idea, because there were one or two other lads that were taken off the pilot’s course, but then we got split up, so I don’t really know what happened to them.
AM: Right.
WS: So from Bowden, I was sent to a holding unit, if I remember this rightly, in Edmonton. We were paraded, quite a few of us who had come from various places, and we paraded one day and they said, ‘You’re all going to be issued with passes for three weeks leave [laughs], and you’ve got to get out of here by tomorrow night’. So all these documents were given to us, and that was it. We were thrown on our own resolve, you see [laughs], and I’d palled up with a chappie called Cyril Taylor. I said, ‘What are we going to do, Cyril?’ He said, ‘Well. Three weeks’. He said, ‘Whilst we’ve been at Bowden’, ‘cause he was off the course like me, he said, ‘While we’ve been at Bowden’, he said, ‘I got friendly with a farming family near Innisfail’, which was just down the road from where we were. He said, ‘We’ll, we’ll head back there and we can do a bit of a job on the farm for them, you see.’ Got three weeks to fill in, may as well, but I said, ‘Look, first I’d like to go and see the Rockies close at hand’. So he said, ‘Righto. We’ll hitch-hike to Vancouver’. [laughs] So we set off hitch-hiking and we got to Banff and we thought, oh this is quite a nice place, we’ll stay a few days here, you see. Of course there were always places for like, what do they call them? I’ve forgotten the name of them. Where you could get a bed for the night and so on. YMCA’s.
AM: Yes.
WS: And things like this.
AM: Were you in uniform as well?
WS: Oh yes. Yes.
AM: Right. So —
WS: So we stayed in Banff two or three nights, maybe a bit longer, about four nights because we then explored around about Banff and so on, and then we said, ‘Right. If we’re going to Vancouver, we’d better get going again.’ So we were hitch hiking, and we went outside of Banff, on the Vancouver highway, after breakfast one morning, and by the time it was lunchtime, we’d had nothing stopping for us and we were just outside of Banff, on the main road to where we were going, to Vancouver as we thought. But a pickup truck did stop once and he said, ‘Where are you two lads wanting to be?’ And we said, ‘We’re trying to get to Vancouver’. He said, ‘You won’t get’, he said, ‘You won’t get to Vancouver. There’s been a landslide up in the mountains and the road’s all blocked. You won’t get through’, so we went back into Banff to get some lunch. And I can see it now. We’d had our lunch, we’d come out, the main street was down there. There was a side street coming to join it and we were stood on that corner, deciding what we were going to do and we had decided that we would hitch back to Calgary and go to this farm I mentioned, where my pal had been working. We were stood on that corner and the next thing I remember was he was digging me in the elbow. He said, ‘Back here in half an hour’, and ‘To Calgary’, and I was aware that there was a car had pulled up, and it had to pull up for a car going down the main road, and the lady in the car had turned down the window and said to her husband, who was driving, she said, ‘These two lads look as though they want to be going somewhere’, and she said, ‘Where are you two wanting to go?’ And me pal said, ‘Calgary’. That’s when he dug me, because she said to him, ‘Back here in half an hour and we’ll take you’. Right. So we were back in half an hour, no doubt, we got in the car and off we set to go to Calgary, you see. Well, inevitably, on the way you get, ‘Where are you from? Where are you from?’ [laughs] So when Mr Atkinson said to me. ‘Where are you from?’ I said, ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘You won’t know it’, I said, ‘A little place called Ampleforth, in the middle of Yorkshire’. And he sort of, he was driving but he half turned, and he said, ‘I was born in Thirsk’. Right. You made that —
AM: Small world.
WS: And apparently he’d emigrated earlier in his life and had got settled there, and when we met him, he was actually on leave, he was a major in the Canadian Army, and they lived on the outskirts of Calgary and they had a small, small range farm up in the foothills of the Rockies. So on the way back, Mrs Atkinson turned to us and she said, ‘We have two beds made up for any servicemen that we pick up’, she said, ‘You can come, you can stay one night, you can stay two nights, you can stay the rest of your leave’, which was a fortnight. We stayed the fortnight, didn’t we? [laughs] Yeah. So, then, ok, our leave was over. We had to report back to Edmonton, Edmonton sent us to Lethbridge, where we started our bomb aimers training.
AM: Right.
WS: And we finished at Lethbridge, I forget how long that was, then we were sent back to Edmonton, and then we were posted.
AM: Right.
WS: Back to England.
AM: So what was the bomb aimer’s training? How did they train you to be a bomb aimer?
WS: Drop bombs.
AM: So you’re up. You’re flying.
WS: We’re flying.
AM: You say drop bombs.
WS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: But targeted areas. You’re not dropping bombs are you?
WS: Oh yeah. Yeah. They had set areas. There was far more than one airfield training bomb aimers, but we were, as I say, near Edmonton, which I was quite pleased, because it meant we’d gone further north, so that we were flying over desolate country, but it was quite interesting. And apart from training to drop bombs, we were trained as air gunners.
AM: Right.
WS: Because as a bomb aimer, you were going to man one of the turrets and you had to do a bit of navigation in case the navigator got —
AM: Right. What were you training in? What planes were you training in?
WS: It was Avro, Avro [pause]
AM: Manchester.
WS: No. No. No.
AM: No.
WS: Smaller than that.
AM: Smaller.
WS: Two, two engines.
AM: No.
WS: I’ll look it up for you in a minute.
AM: It’ll come.
WS: I’ll look it up now if you want it on there.
AM: Oh.
[Recording paused]
WS: An Anson. Yes, that’s right.
AM: The Avro Hanson. The Avro Hanson.
WS: No. A N S O N.
AM: Anson, sorry.
WS: Anson.
AM: Anson.
WS: It was, it was a really good plane, a very nice safety plane, good visibility.
AM: Were you training with people who would later become your crew, or was this before crewing up?
WS: No. No. No. No. Nothing to do with the crew. They were training for —
AM: Ok. So this was just bomb aimer’s training.
WS: This was bomb aimer’s training.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Yes, and I mean, there would be navigators training somewhere else.
AM: Yeah.
WS: And so on.
AM: Yeah.
WS: I don’t think any gunners were trained abroad.
AM: No.
WS: I think they were all trained over here, but I’m not sure on that.
AM: What were you actually dropping? Things like smoke bombs?
WS: Yeah.
AM: With the dye in and stuff like that.
WS: Yeah.
AM: So you could see whether you’d —
WS: Or smoke.
AM: How close you got to your target.
WS: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. Yes. And it was, we’d all be measured because you’d be dropping them on a range. And you see, even when you got to squadron stage, you still did practice bombing and from Lincolnshire, we were down at Wainfleet, Wainfleet was our target there. And there again, they were sort of small smoke bombs. So yeah. So then, where am I? I’ve gone to Lethbridge, gone to, gone back to Edmonton, have I? [pause]. Yeah. I went, I finished my training then in Edmonton, I think that was mostly navigation. I think we maybe did drop a few bombs there but most of the bombs were dropped when we were at Lethbridge. And then we all passed out, and got our wings but, no. No. No. No. No. No. [laughs] I got my wings, there’s your passes, back to Moncton, ready to go back to England. You’ve got, I think we had about four, five days to get to Moncton and a few of us worked it out that we would have time to go to the Niagara Falls, so we did that. That were great. We went on the Maid of the [unclear] and you were right close to the waterfall. Yes. I mean you can still do it, but there’s a but. You see I was a sergeant, having passed out the course.
AM: Right.
WS: And we had, as I say, we had to get back to Moncton. Got to Moncton, found my bunk, and the next day, I was called out and they said, ‘Why are you in that billet?’ I said, ‘Because I want to sleep there’, you see. They said, ‘Didn’t they tell you at Edmonton that you’d been given a commission?’ I said, ‘No. Nobody breathed a word about it’. I said, ‘Look.’ I said, I’ve got sergeant’s stripes on’, ‘Well get yourself off to’, oh what do they call it? Anyway, the offices and tell them and book in there. So I went in to the office and came out ready to put my rings up. Yeah, I got a commission at the end of the course. Came back and —
AM: Was that usual?
WS: No.
AH: What people won’t realise these days, nowadays, is that while dad was in Canada in this day, day and age of communications, his mother died.
AM: Right.
AH: And it was three weeks before he knew that she’d died. In three weeks, she’d been dead and buried before he even knew about it. And nowadays, with mobile phones and communications, I think people don’t realise that. The time it took to get anything anywhere.
AM: And how far away you are.
AH: You are. Yes.
AM: As a young man.
AH: Yes. Yes.
WS: Yes. I mean there was no hope of getting back, even if you could have organised a flight. You know?
AM: So you just found out by letter or —?
WS: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a letter from my dad. That’s right.
AM: What a shock.
WS: That’s right. But what I should also have said, that when I was sent on to the bomb aimer’s course, there were only probably five or six of us going on to that particular course, because when we got there, it was a Australian course. A lot of Australians came in, so I was put into a course with the Australians and I think, I’ve always thought, that the Australians that were there when I joined them, were probably the Australians that were coming from Australia when we were told to get out of our billets for three weeks. I don’t know, I might be wrong, but it seems feasible to me. Yeah. They were a good lot, were the Aussies, you know. I got along with them very well. Particularly one called Jackie Tong who, fortunately, survived. I’ll tell you a bit more about that afterwards [laughs]. So, yeah, so I finished up with the Australian course and when they went to a different depot in Canada to be shipped to England, as we did, we were going to Moncton, and then we were going to the ship at Halifax, and when I got on to the ship at Halifax, there’s these Australians on board, so met up again. Then later on, I’ll finish that off, later on, when I was on a squadron outside of Lincoln, myself and the crew went in to Lincoln one day, and we went to get something to eat at the ABC Cinema Café. And as it happened, we got into a table in the window, and there we were quietly having our tea, when suddenly, I just leapt out of my chair and shouted, ‘There’s Jackie Tong’. And I’d seen one of these Australians who I’d got very, very friendly with, walking up the main street in Lincoln and I just shot off and down the stairs because I didn’t know where he was. I didn’t know anything about him or what had happened to him, and I caught him up, fortunately up the main street. And he was stationed at Waddington, just outside Lincoln, and I was at Dunholme Lodge on the other side of Lincoln. So we met up again, and then after the war, I thought, I wonder what happened to Jackie Tong? I saw him once or twice in Lincoln but after that, after that we were moved from Dunholme, down to Spilsby. And after the war, I thought, I’ll write to Australia House in London, so I did and asked them and almost straight away, they sent me back details. Said that Jackie Tong, so and so, and lived at so and so in Australia, and he’d survived the war and I got in touch with him again.
AM: Right.
WS: And we remained in touch, yes. So where was I, in the middle — [laughs]
AM: Right. Let’s wheel back again then.
AH: You’d finished your training and you were coming back to England.
AM: So you’ve finished your, you’ve finished your training, you’re coming back.
WS: Coming back. Yes. Now, we came back into the Clyde and then we, as officers, were shipped down to Harrogate, just up the road.
AM: Yeah.
WS: So we were to get our uniforms at [pause], I’ve forgotten the name of the tailors now, it was in Harrogate. We were told to go there so I went there and got my uniform and so on, and then got on the bus and came home on leave. Walked out of the, walked out on [laughs], Joan was working down at the college at the time.
AM: Had you met Joan by this point?
WS: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. We met when we were still seventeen.
AM: So you, you’d met Joan.
WS: Yeah.
AM: Before ever you went to Canada.
WS: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. So I walked down to the college, knowing where she was working and, of course, she [unclear] when she saw me.
AM: ‘Cause there’s no texting to say, ‘Joan. I’m on my way.’
AH: No.
WS: No, so that was it. There I’m back in England, trained as a bomb aimer and then after that leave, I was then posted,. I had one or two postings actually. I went, went back to Harrogate and then I went to Sidmouth, to join a course at Sidmouth, and it was a sort of officer’s training course but it was chiefly survival.
AM: Right.
WS: And from there —
AM: Can I just ask, survival as in, if you got shot down, if you ditched.
WS: Well, that would help. Yes, I mean, it was just finding your way there, finding your way in the dark and through country and this, that and the other, that sort of thing. Apart from a bit of [pause], I can’t remember what it was now, whatever officer’s needed to know [laughs]
AH: You smoked a pipe, didn’t you? And they gave you a pipe with a little tiny compass in, that we used to love seeing as children.
WS: Which was for escape.
AH: For survival.
WS: Until you knew, you know.
.AM: Yeah. And I can’t remember at this point in the war, whether they had the raft, for if you had to ditch in the sea, and maybe that sort of thing.
WS: We had inflatable. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I think they were in the wings, I can’t remember. Didn’t have to use one fortunately. So I had been at Sidmouth, but I can’t remember if we went back to Harrogate again. No, I don’t think we did. I think I were posted directly from Sidmouth to 5 Group and started my training for a squadron.
AM: So we’re in Lincolnshire now.
WS: We’re in Lincolnshire.
AM: So, I’m just trying to remember. So, at this point, have you actually got a squadron?
WS: No.
AM: No.
WS: No.
AM: So you’ve not crewed up yet and you’ve not got your squadron yet.
WS: No. We went to, we went to OTU, Operational Training Unit.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
WS: Ah, no. I missed a bit out. I first of all went to Mona. You don’t know where Mona is, do you? It’s on the Isle of Anglesey.
AM: Oh right.
WS: Right. And we went for some more training there, again dropping bombs.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Little bombs, doing navigation. It was prolonging the final course we did in Canada, sort of a refresher course really, and I went there on January the 1st 1944, when we’d done all the other training. And there I was stood —
AM: New Year’s Day.
WS: In the dark, on Bangor Station, not knowing where I was really going, waiting for a train that would take me to Mona. And through the gloom of the night and the day, because it wasn’t a very nice day, I saw a figure down the platform, and I saw he was in officer’s uniform. So I wandered down to him and I said, ‘Excuse me’, I said, ‘Are you going’, ‘cause I saw he was the same rank as me, I said to him, ‘Are you going to Mona?’, ‘Yeah’, he said, ‘Yes I am’. He said, ‘I’m waiting for the train’. I said, ‘Yes. So am I’. We became pals because it so happened, that we finished up on the same squadron.
AM: Right.
WS: In fact, we wangled one posting, the pair of us, so that’s how I met, met him. So I was there on January the 1st, and I was there until February the, well just after the 20th. February 20th would be our last flight from Mona. And then I went to, on March the 16th, I did my first flight in a Wellington. We’re moving up now, and I was there until April, well, April the 12th was my last flight from Bitteswell.
AM: Right.
WS: And I then flew from Bruntingthorpe, 29 OTU which was the same as, it was a substation of Bitteswell. There was some more training to do, and I was there until May the, May the 11th
AM: It just always seems such a long drawn out time.
AH: Yes. I’m thinking, when he’s saying these dates, I’m thinking, the war’s going to be over before he gets there [laughs]
AM: Well yeah.
WS: Right. So then I went, did my first flight, I can’t tell you exactly when I went. June the 25th 1944, I was sent to Heavy Conversion Unit at Swinderby.
AM: Right.
WS: That’s when we went on to four engine bombers.
AM: Right. So in the meanwhile, we’ve had D-day, and everything’s happened.
WS: Yeah. Yeah. I’m going to slip back in a minute or two.
AM: Ok.
WS: And I was there until July the 17th, when I did my last flight from Swinderby, and from Swinderby, I went to 5 Lancaster Finishing School at Syerston. I did my first flight from there on August the 10th. That was the first time I flew in a Lancaster.
AM: Did you like it? What was the Lancaster like then after the others? A big boy.
WS: Well to begin with, I did not like the Stirling, which I’d been on. It was too big, too cumbersome. Apart from something else that happened. So we were going, the pilot, I said how I joined up with my aircrew, haven’t I yet?
AM: Right. No, no, you haven’t told me about crewing up. When —
WS: I’ll tell you about that in a minute.
AM: Right. Ok.
WS: I’ll just finish this bit.
AM: Alright.
WS: Because we’re talking about the Lancaster. This pilot told us that he was going to fly the Lancaster on a training flight, because he hadn’t flown a Lancaster before. On a training flight, he said, ‘If you want to come, you can come, if you don’t, it doesn’t matter, because it’s just for me’. The pilot. ‘It’s just for me to get used to flying a Lancaster’. I said, ‘Oh no’, I said, ‘I’m going to come’. See [laughs], I found out that the mid-upper gunner wasn’t going to go. He’d already done a tour of operations and he knew the Lancaster, so I said, ‘Right. I’m going to fly in the mid-upper turret and get a nice good view’, you see. So I get up there, and off we go. We’re flying along and the instructor’s telling Mike what to do, etcetera, etcetera, you see and then, suddenly, he says, I might not get these in the right order, but he said, ‘Switch off the starboard outer’. Mike said, ‘There you are’. Flying on three engines, go on a bit further. ‘Switch off the port outer’, switched that off, there you are. Two engines. I, I’m sat up in the mid-upper gunner, seeing these propellers stopping.
AM: Can you hear the instructions? You’re on the intercom?
WS: Oh yes. Yeah. Because I’m on the intercom.
AM: Yeah.
WS: And then he told Mike to switch off one of the other engines. So I thought, where’s my parachute? I might need this, you see. Well, it flew like a bird on one engine and I thought, oh, this is the aeroplane for me, I’m glad I’m on one. Great. Great. So that was my first flight in a Lancaster, and I was there from August the 10th until August the 14th, so I was only there four days. And then posted to a squadron.
AM: Right. Wheel, just wheel back to crewing up then. How did that happen?
WS: Crewing up. Well that happened at, that happened at OUT, Operational Training Unit, which I was at Bitteswell, I think, yeah, I was at Bitteswell. [pause] And from arriving there, and I can’t tell you exactly when I arrived there, but February the 20th, I was at [pause], I was at [pause], I was at Mona. No, we’d moved from Mona. No, we hadn’t [pages turning]. Yeah. I went to Bitteswell and we paraded one day, and there was a mass of men. We were told, ‘Those are all aircrew. Go and get yourself crewed up’. It was just a stroke of luck, and I don’t know how long I, I didn’t get crewed up that day, I know that. It might have been two or three days afterwards, I was in my billet, and it was a Nissen hut with rows of beds on either side [pause], and I thought, really and truly, I’d better be getting crewed up. Because I’d asked one pilot, an Australian, and he said, ‘I’m sorry. I’ve got an air bomber’, so I tried a New Zealander, and he said ‘I’m sorry. I’ve got a bomb aimer’, you see. So I was sat in my, I was sat on my bed thinking who do I, who am I going to ask for next, you see, and then this six foot four fellow walked in, and as he walked past the bottom of my bed I said, ‘Hey’, I said, ‘Excuse me. Have you got a bomb aimer yet?’ And, of course, he was a pilot, you see, I could see that. ‘Have you got a bomb aimer yet?’ He said, ‘No’, he said. So I said, ‘Well, what about you and I crewing up then?’ He said, ‘Well, let me have a look at your logbook’, so he had a look at my logbook, see what I’d done, and he said, ‘Yeah. Righto’. So that’s how I got, that’s how I got a pilot. ‘So I said have you got any, any other crew?’ He said, ‘Oh yeah’, he said. I don’t know whether it was there and then, but if it wasn’t there and then, it was the next day and he introduced me to two gunners and the navigator and a wireless operator. He’d got his crew except for me, I think. Is that right? Yeah, I think it was.
AM: Yeah.
WS: So I’d got a crew then, you see, and they were a great set.
AM: I counted.
WS: Unfortunately,
AM: Oh we’re missing the flight engineer as well.
WS: Yeah, we didn’t get him yet.
AM: Oh right. I thought I’d only got to six.
WS: Yes. They were, they were a good lot but we, whether this was the cause or not, I have no idea, but we landed one night in the Wellington, we’d been on a night cross country and we landed. I was sat up next to Mike, and I was looking out of that window, and Mike was there, and I thought to myself, I thought, those landing lights are going by rather quickly. And just at that point, Mike shouted out, he said, ‘The brake’s aren’t working’. So I thought, I hope he doesn’t try to turn at the end of the runway, because if he turned at the other road, he’d have gone over, you see. However, he didn’t, he went straight on, off the end of the runway, bounced across the field, through a hedge, banked across another field, finished up in a ditch, nose first. So we, we were scrambling to get out and the navigator was putting his maps back into his bag. I said, ‘Hey’, I said, ‘Get out. Quick’, he said, ‘Mike’s had a heavy landing tonight’. I said, ‘We’ve crashed. Get out’, out he goes, the rear gunner had turned his turret and tumbled out the back, you see.
AM: Right. Yeah.
WS: That’s the way they had to get out. And he was stood outside our plane, I was saying, ‘You silly buggers. Get out. Get out. It’ll be on fire. There’s petrol all over the place. Get out’. Fortunately, it didn’t go on fire, but the control on the aerodrome, didn’t know that we’d crashed. Don’t put that in.
AM: [unclear] these are the interesting bits.
WS: And, of course, as soon as they knew, they whipped the ambulance out for us and ferried us back in, and we had to go and see the MO, and he checked us over. Nobody was hurt, but the aircraft was a complete write off.
AM: Yeah.
WS: It broke its back, so that was our adventure on OTU. I was sorry about the Wellington, it was a nice aircraft. So, where have we got to now?
AM: Right, so we’ve crewed up. We’ve not got our flight engineer yet.
WS: Ah right. Yes, well —
AM: And we’ve not got our squadron yet.
WS: Yes. We got our flight engineer, I think it was the next, let me see. I don’t know whether I’ll have it down here. Yeah, there we are. We got him at Swinderby.
AM: Right.
WS: Which was the next one, after that previous one. We got him on June the 25th. He was from, and we also got a new air gunner. Now why did we get a new air gunner? Because our rear gunner decided he did not want to be aircrew anymore. Now, don’t ask me why, because I never knew. Whether, a little bit of a rumour went around, that his girlfriend had used pressure on him, but I don’t know whether that was right or not, or whether the fact that we’d crashed made him change his mind.
AM: Spooked him. Had he, was he a new one or had he already done a tour?
WS: No. No. He was a new one.
AM: He was new.
WS: Yeah, he was a new one.
AM: So he hadn’t actually been up there in anger yet.
WS: No. No, he hadn’t.
AM: In an operation.
WS: No. No. You see, I don’t know the full story, because you never got to know. You never really got to know.
AM: Were you allowed to just decide that?
WS: You never really got to know. They kept it quiet because they didn’t want it to affect the rest of the crew, which it could have done.
AM: Well, yeah. And was he just allowed to revert to ground crew or —
WS: I don’t know what happened to him.
AM: No.
WS: I’ve no idea what happened to him.
AM: Because sometimes —
WS: He just disappeared.
AM: Right.
WS: He just completely disappeared. Now, as I understood it, I thought they whipped, as I say, the aircrew, if anybody did that [pause] LMF. Lack of moral fibre.
AM: Yeah.
WS: They whipped them out of the way.
AM: Right.
WS: Because they didn’t want them contaminating aircrew.
AM: Yeah.
WS: In the squadron or anything like that, and he just disappeared. And I never, ever heard what happened to him.
AM: Yeah. I wondered about the lack of moral fibre thing, because you’ve done all that training, all the, and then you just decide you don’t want to do it.
WS: Yeah. As I say I’ve no idea. I mean, he showed no sign to us that he wanted, he never mentioned it. I mean he obviously, he must obviously have mentioned it to the pilot, because he was in charge of the crew. He may not have done, of course, he may have gone to the adjutant or he may have gone to some other officer in charge of ground crew, of aircrew, and said he wanted to pack it in, you know. Just have no idea. Never enquired because we got a new air gunner, a warrant, he was a warrant officer, Cole, who had done a tour.
AM: Right.
WS: So that we knew that when he joined us, he would only have to do twenty for a second tour. So he came to the squadron with us, obviously, but when he’d done his twenty, he was finished, and then we flew with just odd bods really.
AM: Yeah.
WS: In the mid-upper turret. Yeah. Where are we?
AM: Right. Squadron. We’ve not got a squadron yet.
WS: Haven’t got a squadron yet. Well, because my pilot was Rhodesian, he was sent to 44 Squadron, which was 44 Rhodesia Squadron, because the Rhodesian government financed the squadron, but they weren’t all Rhodesians, obviously, but he was. He was a Rhodesian and that’s why we finished up on 44 Squadron.
AM: Right. Based at — ?
WS: Well, we were at Dunholme Lodge then.
AM: Dunholme Lodge.
WS: And we were at Dunholme Lodge [pages turning]. Well, we just slip back to, because this is another thing that people won’t realise. Where are we? We were at Swinderby, right, and on the 16th of July [pause], we had finished our course, it was only a short course at Swinderby, because it was really getting the pilot familiarised with the Lancaster. Nevertheless, we had to train as a crew as well, so we finished there on July the 16th, having arrived there on June the 25th, so it was shortish. And as soon as we finished the course, you could go on leave. And we, knowing it was a short course, Mike and I —
AH: The pilot.
WS: Mike and I had sort of palled up a bit with another pilot and a bomb aimer, who were officers, and decided that we knew we weren’t going to be there very long. We couldn’t be bothered to go out, down to Newark or in to Lincoln, night after night sort of thing, so we sat playing cards in one of our billets, and just for a bit of money, pass the time. And so, when we finished the course, we could go on leave. Those two hadn’t finished, so they were still finishing off, but we knew, when we got back, they’d probably be there. So I went on leave then, went back [pause], the two that we’d been playing cards with, had been killed. Been taking off one night, and it was in a Stirling, which I didn’t like.
AM: On operations?
WS: No. No.
AM: No. Because you’re not on a squadron yet, are you?
WS: On training.
AM: On training.
WS: Yeah, and they would have been finishing like we had, you see, but as soon as you’d finished your training, you didn’t really bother. You weren’t on a course really, you could go off on leave. Then we got back and found that they’d both been killed.
AM: And what had happened? Do you know?
WS: The crew, the whole crew had been killed. Now the Stirling was under-powered and they didn’t clear the trees at the end of the runway.
AM: Taking off.
WS: Yeah. You see that’s another aspect people won’t realise.
AM: Well, yeah, because they’re young men, they’ve done all the training, they haven’t even got to a squadron.
WS: So, we joined the squadron on August the 21st. No, sorry, we didn’t. That is when we did our first flight on a squadron, and that was on August the 21st so we would, between [pages turning]. Where are we? Between the August the 14th and August the 21st, I can’t really tell you what we’d been doing, must have had a bit of leave. I know that because, as I say, we came back and found that the other two poor fellas had been killed. But the first flight, was a training flight on August the 21st 1944 from Dunholme Lodge.
AM: Right.
WS: And I was at Dunholme Lodge then, until [pages turning], that’s right, until September the 30th, when we flew from Dunholme Lodge to Spilsby.
AM: To Spilsby.
WS: Yeah.
AM: I’m going to press pause.
WS: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
AM: So, where are we? We’re in 44 Squadron.
WS: Yeah.
AM: And at the moment, we’re at Dunholme Lodge.
WS: Are we —
AM: But we haven’t done our first, you haven’t done your first operation yet.
WS: Right.
AM: So tell me about the first operation. Where to? What did it feel like?
WS: Twenty eight. That occurred. [pause] Eight days.
[pause]
AM: Where was, where was your first operation to?
WS: I was wondering whether Anne was coming back. Our first operation. We joined the squadron, and had our first flight on the squadron on August the 21st 1944, and our first operation was on August the 29th 1944. Now there was a bit of a, oh, I think people still think today that, and I’ve seen it in writing actually, that aircrew were generally sent on a fairly, what they called, easy target for their first op. There was no easy target, you could be shot down if you’d just crossed the channel, as well as going thousands of miles. But our first operation, we were airborne for eleven and three quarter hours.
AM: So, right, right over to Germany then. The other side of Germany.
WS: Yeah. We were going to Konigsberg in East Prussia.
AM: Right.
WS: And we flew out over the North Sea, over to Sweden, and we went over friendly territory. At least not —
AM: Yeah.
WS: It weren’t a war country, and flew south. We were warned that if you went over into Sweden, you would probably get shot at, but they probably wouldn’t be aiming at you. Just warning you to keep away [laughs]. And then we went to Konigsberg, and we had to, as it turned out, we had to fly around and around for about a quarter of an hour, twenty minutes, while they got the target mapped accurately. Did that, we were called in and did the bombing. We came back and we were diverted to Fiskerton because there was fog over.
AM: What was it like? Actually like. How many? Was it a big bomber stream? Because this would be the first time that you’d actually been in a full stream of aircraft.
WS: Yeah, but you see, it was night. It was at night, so we didn’t really.
AM: So you couldn’t really see. You couldn’t see.
WS: No. You might occasionally, if you got a bit near, see just a faint outline of a Lancaster, but otherwise you weren’t, and it was a bit strange, because we did go on, well, we went on one or two daylight raids, but we went on a daylight raid later on. It was to bomb the Germans in Boulogne, and to see all those Lancasters and other aircraft flying down south over England, you just thought. And at night, they would be there as well and you can’t see them. Made you aware of the danger that there was.
AM: Oh absolutely.
WS: In the dark.
AM: Yeah.
WS: And yet the darkness was a cover for you. But there we are.
AM: That first operation. Can you remember, were you scared? Were you exhilarated? Did you —
WS: I always say, that when people say, weren’t you frightened or were you afraid or whatever, I say, yes you were, but you didn’t show it, you kept it in. And I’ve always reckoned, it was the only way to survive really. But yes, you had to be aware of it, otherwise, if you weren’t aware of the danger from other aircraft that were flying nearby, or you didn’t keep a look out for German fighters or whatever, then you probably wouldn’t survive. But I think it all stemmed from being afraid. But as I say you didn’t, you were young, you didn’t bother with it.
AM: Yeah.
WS: I don’t know whether that answers your question.
AM: No. It just interests me the different ways that people felt about it.
AH: Yeah.
AM: Some people really excited to go. Some people definitely were not.
WS: Yeah. I also think, as well, that you knew if you were flying with a good crew, you knew that they were all on top of their job, you knew that they would always be alert and so on, and if a gunner fell asleep, or anything like that, he’s not alert, is he? And he’s endangering your life. So if you have trust in your crew, you were more likely to survive.
AM: And different ones have said, in the bomber streams the, your trust was actually in the navigator.
WS: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
AM: To keep you safe.
WS: Yes. Yeah.
AM: And away from everything else, and on track for where you were going.
WS: Yes. You were, you had certain courses to fly and he directed you onto there. You see, your gunners, where you expected them to be awake, and keep their eye out.
AM: Yeah.
WS: And identify enemy aircraft, or even your own aircraft, and warn you that you might be crashing, so.
AH: What I think I never realised. You talk about the bomb aimer, the pilot, the gunners but you’re down there in the front.
AM: Yeah.
AH: And if you see something, you’re telling the navigator. You’re looking out for the navigator.
AM: Yeah.
AH: You’ve got a gun as well.
AM: Yeah.
AH: If needs be. So everybody’s helping everybody else, aren’t they? It’s not just bomb aimer.
WS: No.
AM: You’re the eyes at the front, the bomb aimer.
WS: Oh yes. If necessary, you would fire the guns in defence and if the, if the navigator got hurt, you would go back and help him, and this, that and the other.
AM: On all the operations that you did, did they, the gunners, ever actually fire the guns?
WS: I can’t remember them actually firing the guns, but on the other hand, I’ve spoken to our rear gunner about this, and he’s quoted one particular time when our radar equipment, which was a big bulge under, under the fuselage of the Lancaster, we came back and when I got out, I saw it was all gone. It had obviously, I automatically thought that it had been anti-aircraft fire, but the, our rear gunner said, ‘No. It wasn’t. It was a fighter attack’. Now I can’t remember the fighter attack, but, but I have no doubt that he was right, because there were fighters that particular night. You knew there were more fighters around.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
WS: You see Konigsberg, if you read the accounts of Konigsberg raid, you’ll find, I think it’s on that one, that there were a lot of fighters around, but I can’t remember them. I don’t think we saw one.
AM: Because you were concentrating on what you were doing.
WS: Well. Yes. Partially and also, partially, the fighter could have been a few miles away.
AM: And actually dropping your bombs, that very first time. So it’s been marked, the Pathfinders have been out, you’ve got your target, you know where it’s going. Did you hit the target? ‘Cause then all the photographs are taken of, of —
WS: Yes. I hope so. I mean, of course, you’re crew would look out as well and see, but there again, you’ve got to be careful, because they wouldn’t want to divide their attention between keeping a look out for fighters coming in, say. But, yes, you could be aware of your bombs, depending on your target, and what sort of visibility was, and whether the aircraft was sort of, going to break away after the attack. You may not see it, but there was, the best example I can give you of that, was that we went, it was one of the canal raids we went on, the Mittenval Canal or the other one. Dortmund Dams canal or —
AM: Dortmund Dams. Yeah.
WS: Yeah. One of those raids we went on, two or three, attacking the canals. Now, when we got to the target area, just before we got to it actually, the master bomber was assessing the aiming point, and there was some confusion arose, because I will swear, to this day, and so would Mike, the pilot, and so would some of the other crew, that we were told to come down to five thousand feet to bomb. From, I think, probably about twelve or fifteen thousand, which was quite a way away down.
AM: That’s quite low. Yeah.
WS: On the other hand, there were reports came in that that, that that was altered to back to the normal level, but we never heard that, and a lot of other crew didn’t either. But Mike said, ‘Right we’re going down’, five thousand feet. Well by the time we got down to five thousand feet, we were below the markers, that the marker force were dropping, so we were lit up like daylight, you see. Well you could see the canal as plain as anything, and Mike said, ‘Right, we’re going in’. So I will swear to this day, that I got a very good sighting on the canal, but on that occasion, I was able to see the bombs actually fall and they did, they fell right alongside the canal bank. So that probably, I can’t swear to this, but probably, from where they fell I would have thought that it breached the canal side.
AM: Breached. Yeah.
WS: And therefore, the water, which we were trying to get rid of, the water we were trying to get of, would have all flooded out. I don’t know. There you are.
AM: I just have this picture of, you, the markers and then the ones that were still at twelve thousand feet, dropping bombs.
WS: Yeah.
AH: And the danger was the other bombs hitting you.
WS: Yeah, I mean, ok, we went in and did the bombing and I thought afterwards, sometime afterwards, I thought, well, every time we go out on a bombing raid, it would be like that. Not that you were dropping below a certain height. No. No.
AM: But you’re all at different heights.
WS: But you are at different heights, yes, but not as marked, as that was because we, the master bomber had assessed it, that if we come down to a lower level, which was a big drop, seven thousand feet or thereabouts, that we would have a better chance of hitting the target. I don’t know.
AM: Did any of your crew get DFM’s or DFC’s or — ?
WS: No.
AM: No.
WS: No.
AM: You weren’t fool hardy enough to get in those situations. What was the story about Hamburg that your daughter was talking about?
WS: She shouldn’t have told you that one.
AM: Go on.
WS: Well we were, we were attacking, we weren’t attacking Hamburg actually, we were attacking Harburg, which was on the other side of the river, the other side of the estuary. And it was a lovely night, and it was dark and flying along, no sign of anything happening, and then, suddenly, there was anti-aircraft fire absolutely pounding around us. Mike immediately took evasive action, which was [unclear], you see, and I’m down in the front with him going up and down, like this. The gunners were wondering what was happening, and so on and so forth, you see, and I suddenly realised we’d overshot the target, and we hadn’t seen any markers, so unfortunately, the navigator got us to the target area too soon. I think there had been a following wind, which he hadn’t calculated for, and we just, we just kept on flying like that, and eventually, of course, we passed, and then we realised that the amount of aircraft fire that was coming up, we’d flown over Hamburg which, of course, was a big target. How on earth we didn’t get shot down, I do not know, but we suddenly, the anti-aircraft fire lessened and lessened, and so we must have passed over, passed right over Hamburg. Passed.
AM: Did you manage to drop your bombs?
WS: Well then, we flew around to the proper target.
AM: Right.
WS: Which was Harburg, not Hamburg. Yeah. And we dropped our bombs and then came home.
AM: Right.
WS: So. Right, we got home. When you get home, you’re out the aircraft, we go to the mess for our bacon and egg.
AM: Yeah. Bacon and egg. Everybody remembers their bacon and egg.
WS: When we got back, we went in to the mess, and there were crews sat there, but one particular crew, he was a Rhodesian, like Mike was, and they’d trained together. The bomb aimer and I had trained together, so we were sort of very pally together, you see. Mike and I sat down, then one of them said, ‘Did you see that silly bugger that was over Hamburg?’ And we, Mike and I, looked at each other, and just said, ‘Yeah it was us’. ‘Well you daft buggers, what were you over there for?’ But I just couldn’t believe that we hadn’t —
AM: That you escaped it.
WS: Yeah.
AM: Got out in one piece.
WS: The damage that you would have thought that we would have. I mean we —
AM: What was the flak damage to it? To the plane?
WS: Well no, there was a few holes, but it wasn’t.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Nothing drastic or anything like that.
AM: You could bodge them up.
WS: No. Talking about that, you go back to our first raid over Konigsberg, which I’ve already mentioned. As we came away from the target, I always had to check in the bomb bay by opening a little door.
AM: Yeah.
WS: To see if the bombs had all gone. Well on that occasion, I opened the little hatch, the bombs had gone, but I saw drip, drip, drip and it was red. And, you see, I was on an eye level with the pilot’s feet and the engineer’s feet, so those two bodies were there and I thought, has somebody been hit? ‘Cause we’d had quite a lot of firing up there. And I ran my hand on the, because I was on, my eye level, I had to go a step up into the fuselage, my eye was on a level with that, so I saw this quite clearly dripping through, and I put my hand on it, and I thought, it’s a bit red is this, so I said, I called them up on the, and I said, ‘Is everybody alright up there?’ And Mike said, ‘Yes. Yeah. What’s the matter?’ I said. ‘Well, there’s some dripping, coming through out of the bomb bay’. Anyway, to cut a long story short, it was our hydraulics had got hit. Now, we did not really know whether we would get the undercarriage down.
AM: All the way home.
WS: All the way home.
AM: First operation.
WS: First operation.
AM: I thought you were going to say it was blood.
WS: No, it wasn’t as it happened you see, because it was the same colour, but there we are, and what we didn’t know, whether we would get the undercarriage down, and we thought we’d got it down, but we weren’t, didn’t know whether it was locked or not, ‘cause when they come down, they was locked, you see. We had no indication on the dash board in front of the pilot that it was locked down. And then we found we were going to have to land in fog at Fiskerton.
AM: So, was that the one that you were diverted to Fiskerton?
WS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
WS: But everything was alright, as it happened.
AM: But you got down ok.
WS: We got down ok.
AM: And lived to tell the tale.
WS: Lived to tell the tale. But there you are, you see.
AM: Did you ever have to land in the fog? You know, that they had all the flares.
WS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: I can’t remember what they were called, all the fire things along the runway.
WS: The Fido.
AM: That’s it.
WS: Fido.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Yeah. Yes. It’s a very strange sensation that, because you were, you were sort of, lighting fog, and you were going down and down, and you thought we were going to go straight into the ground, you see. You were still in fog. You could see the glows, but they weren’t doing anything really. You could see flames coming up, and then you’d come out of that fog, complete clearance. And by that time the pilot was landing.
AM: You were down.
WS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
WS: So the pilot had to be on the ball really. He didn’t want to fly into the deck. Had to know what he was doing.
AM: How many operations did you do?
WS: Thirty six.
AM: Thirty.
WS: Thirty six.
AM: Thirty six. And was that a full operation? That was, no, that was more than a full operation.
WS: No. Thirty. Thirty was a full operation.
AM: Thirty was the full op.
WS: Yeah.
AM: ‘Cause the numbers changed a bit towards the end of the war, didn’t they, but that, so thirty was still a full operation. A full tour.
WS: Thirty was a full tour and also the pilot did what we called a dickie run. He went with another crew just for the experience of a first raid.
AM: Yeah.
WS: So Mike had done that, and including that, in that total, a tour was thirty but during our tour, I certainly spent, through 5 Group, that they suddenly put it up to thirty six, so we had six more to do. I tell you what, you could tell that there was bit of demoralisation, because more aircraft got shot down than generally.
AM: On the final six.
WS: Yeah. So I don’t know.
AM: Where else did you go? Were they mainly over Germany? The ones that you did? Any other interesting stories? I’m sure there are. About some of these operations.
WS: Bremerhaven, Monchengladbach.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Munster, Karlsruhe. That Monchengladbach one, I think that was the one, the 19th of September, we can check it up of course, was the raid that Guy Gibson got the chop on.
AM: Oh right.
WS: He got shot down over Holland on the way back, but I can, I can hear him now telling us, ‘Home chaps. Good prang’. And so on, words to that effect. Bremen, Brunswick, Bergen. Oh, we had to land away there. Dusseldorf, Gravenhorst. No, that wasn’t the one. Harburg, there we are, the one I’ve just been telling you about
AM: Yeah.
WS: Where we flew [laughs], when we flew over Hamburg. That was on the 11th of November and that then, yeah, then the next one was on the 21st, 10 days later. That was the one that I told you about, us having to drop below five thousand feet to bomb, down in here, bombed from four thousand. Did a few mining operations.
AM: And this says on the ground moving up through Europe after D-day.
AH: Yeah.
WS: Yeah. Yes.
AM: Yeah.
WS: There was one, I can’t remember which one when we were supporting the advancing troops. Did quite a lot of oil targets, and our last trip was a daylight trip on April the 4th 1945 to a place called Nordhausen, yeah.
AM: What was? I was going to say, what was the difference between the daylight ones and the night ones apart from the obvious, It was daylight.
WS: You could see things.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Yeah, I don’t know. You couldn’t see at night but there we are. You might, you’d more easily crash, I suppose, at night.
AM: Did it feel more dangerous? The fact that you could see more things, but of course, more people could see you as well.
WS: Yeah.
AM: If there were any fighters around.
WS: I don’t know we just had to take it as another raid and get on with it. And I’m going to say unconsciously, that’s the wrong word, consciously you would —
AM: Yeah.
WS: Adapt to the change night and day.
AM: To what, way it was. And you were with the whole crew for the whole thirty six.
WS: Yeah.
AM: Ops.
WS: That was good.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Well when I’m saying yes, the same crew. No, because our mid-upper gunner only had to do twenty.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Yeah. Mid upper gunners were sort of odd bods. We got one that we had five or six times. I did go to Dresden if you — Dresden.
AM: You did?
WS: Yeah. In fact, we were one of the first aircraft to drop bombs on Dresden on that raid.
AM: And you did it because you were told to and —
WS: Yeah. And not —
AM: People have said different things about Dresden
WS: Yeah. Well they’re all wrong.
AM: Yeah. Oh, all sorts of different. Absolutely. All sorts of different things.
WS: Yes.
AM: But as young men.
WS: What was, what was a pity is, that these people who wrote about Dresden, the majority of them had not been there. They’d not been on the raid. And apart from that, they knew little about what, and they jumped to the conclusion that, because it had nice buildings and so on that it shouldn’t have been attacked. They don’t look at the fact that it was still producing war weapons.
AM: Yeah.
WS: And I think the reason for that is because it wasn’t heavy industry, but who was making all the instruments and so on? You never hear that mentioned by some of them. And the majority of people that criticise Dresden, I think you will find are only surmising on facts from the war, in the way they want to interpret them. To me, it was a genuine target and, but we were actually told that they had this light industry. We were also told that it was a big railway centre and that we were bombing it to help the Russians. Disrupting transport. And I think if you look in to the facts, Churchill instigated the raid along with, I mean he was the Commander in Chief. It’s alright talking about Harris, but Harris was obeying orders from above, wasn’t he?
AM: Oh yeah.
WS: I’ve forgotten what I was going to say now. [laughs] The only thing I criticise Churchill about, you know. I think he was the right man at the right time, but he let the bomber boys down at the end of the war.
AH: He was a politician.
WS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Politics, wasn’t it?
WS: Yes. Yeah.
AH: It was all politics after the war.
WS: I mean, ok, they’ll quote that he did say, I don’t know the exact quotation, but he sort of praised the bomber. He said, ‘The bombers will win the war’. That was early on in the war.
AM: Yeah.
WS: But he never said we had done at the end of the war.
AM: That you’d actually done it. Yeah.
WS: But, I say, that even that attitude was wrong because you needed, you needed the bombers, you needed the fighters, you needed the soldiers, you need the Navy. The lot.
AM: The whole allied, the whole allied effort.
WS: To win a war.
AM: To actually do it.
Yeah. You can’t single out any one of us that won the war. Nobody did.
AM: I suppose what you think is what would have happened if you’d taken one of the groups away.
WS: Yes.
AM: If you’d have had no bombers.
WS: Yes.
AM: But yeah. It was an allied effort, wasn’t it? By name.
WS: Yeah.
AM: And that was what it was.
WS: There we are.
AM: Did you, on your last operation did you actually know that was your last one, then?
WS: Yes.
AM: ‘Cause that was your thirty sixth.
WS: Yes. Yes. Yes.
AM: And pretty much, you’re not going to go on another tour after that, are you. Where are we now? April ’45.
WS: Yeah. They asked us if we’d like to go to the Middle East. Not Middle East, the Far East.
AM: Yeah.
WS: And I think Mike was all for it actually. The rest of us said no. We’d managed to come through alright. We were not going to risk going out there.
AM: So what did you do? What happened then, after the last operation?
WS: Well I came on leave [laughs]
AM: And you were married by now. You got, you were married part of the way through the war, weren’t you?
WS: Yeah. I’d only done about five aircraft operations.
AM: When you, when you married.
WS: So I knew I had about another twenty five to do, you see.
AM: Yeah.
WS: But we, Joan and I decided that we would, we would get married, but it would be at the end of the war. We hadn’t really sort of gone into it to that extent but we, I think, without saying a lot about it we had, in a way, decided we would wait till the end of the war. Right. So I come on leave when I’d done about five operations and we went for a day in York, and Joan said to me, she said, ‘Will you come and see Geraldine Kelly with me?’ Now Geraldine Kelly was at the convent with Joan in York and she said Geraldine had got married shortly before that. Her husband was a Canadian and they were flying out of one of the aerodromes around York and he’d been shot down and she didn’t know what had happened to him. And so I said, ‘Yeah. I’ll come and see her’. So, we went to see her. Joan knew which offices she was in, in Coney Street, so I went to see her and had a chat and so on and so forth, and she still hadn’t heard anything about her husband. And we were coming away and Geraldine said, ‘When are you two getting married?’ And we said, ‘Well, we’re probably going to wait until after the war’. And Geraldine said, ‘Don’t’. She said, ‘Don’t wait. I had seven days with John. They were the happiest of my life’. So we came home and got married.
AM: Of course, you didn’t, didn’t know how long the war was going to last at that point.
WS: No. So we came home, we decided that yes, we would get married. We put it all in operation and so it was my next leave was going to be that when we got married. Well, of course, you never knew when your next leave was because you were on a roster. So if somebody ahead of you got killed, you moved up the roster. And then one day, Mike came away from, probably the adjutant’s office and he came over. Fortunately our aircraft was parked near the offices and we always used to gather there, and Mike came over one day and said, ‘You can go on leave tomorrow’. I got to the phone, rang Joan up said, ‘I’m coming home tomorrow. Can we marry on Friday?’ But she had everything in place for a wedding to take place, you see, so she said, ‘Yeah, righto’. [laughs] So I told the crew, ‘You’re coming to a wedding on Friday’, so they, they arranged to come. They were going to stay in York overnight.
AM: Right.
WS: And then come out by Reliance bus to the wedding in the college church, and so that’s it.
AM: So you did.
WS: We got married. And to go back to Geraldine, she heard that he had survived.
AM: He had survived.
WS: He had bailed out and he, I think, I think he must have been taken prisoner of war but it was only a short war, of course. And so they were married and they settled in Canada ‘cause he was Canadian and I think she had six children.
AM: Right. On the, when you’d actually finished your operations, then you came home on leave.
WS: Yeah.
AM: But then, then what happened? How long before demob, because people went all sorts of strange places.
AH: Africa.
AM: You went to Africa.
WS: Well first of all when I went back after the leave, I was then sent to Winthorpe as an instructor.
AM: Right.
WS: To crews going through the process. There is a funny little story, yes, I was instructor at Winthorpe. Then of course, the war finished and they don’t want to be training bomb aimers, would they? And I then got sent on to an equipment officer course at [pause] Bicester. Just outside of Oxford, Bicester, yes.
AM: Bicester.
WS: Yes, just outside Oxford. So I did the officer’s training course and then I was posted to Stafford, where there was a very big, and had been there most of the war, if not all the war, maintenance unit which had several sites. And I was sent to one of those sites as second to the officer in charge of that particular site, but I knew that the next overseas posting that came through to the maintenance unit, I would be on the bike, because they were all ground, ground crew wallahs who had been nicely cosy through the war and didn’t want disturbing, sort of thing, you see. So that was it. Posting didn’t come through, posting didn’t come through, you see. And then was called to the adjutant’s office. ‘Posting’s in for you. You’re going to Cairo’. So I said, ‘I’m sorry, I’m not going to Cairo’, ‘Why not?’ I said, ‘Because you can’t send me there’. He said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘Why not?’ I said, ‘Because I am under the medical officer’, and I said, ‘You can’t post me as long as I’m under the medical officer’. ‘What’s the matter?’ I said, ‘I’m waiting for an eye test’. Two days later, no three days later, I was at an optician. Right. So the next day I’m called into the adjutant’s office and he said, ‘You’ve had your eye test’, he said, ‘You’re going to Cairo’. I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘You’ve already filled the post’, he said, ‘Yes I have’, he said, ‘But I can get it switched’, and he said, ‘But’, he said, ‘I have to have your permission’. So, I said, ‘No’, I said, ‘I’m not going to Cairo’, I said. He said, ‘Well the next posting that comes in, you will have to go’. I said, ‘I’ll take my luck. I’ll take a chance where it is’. He said, ‘You might be going to somewhere like Singapore out in the Far East’, so I said it didn’t matter, I’d take my chance. The posting came through the next day and it was to Rhodesia. So, so the adjutant said, ‘You’re going to Rhodesia’. He said, ‘You can switch, if you like, with one of the others’. I said, ‘I’m not switching if I’m going to Rhodesia’. ‘Cause my pilot was a Rhodesian.
AM: Well yeah.
WS: He’d been demobbed and gone home you see, for one thing. I said I’d rather go to Rhodesia, so he couldn’t do anything about it. He had to send me to Rhodesia.
AM: And what did you actually do in Rhodesia?
WS: Well I —
AH: He had to get there first.
WS: I had to get to Rhodesia.
AM: Well, ok. How did you get to Rhodesia then?
WS: By ship.
AM: For how long?
WS: You couldn’t fly.
AM: No.
WS: You couldn’t fly, you see, there was no flying. That isn’t strictly true actually but I couldn’t have gone.
AM: Yeah.
WS: On a flight. They were only very official flights, so I had to go by ship. So I came home on leave.
AM: I’m just trying to think of the journey then.
AH: Yeah.
WS: Oh yes. Yeah. Because you had to go through the Med.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Down the Suez Canal.
AM: Yeah.
WS: And you see calling at various places on the way and we did have quite a number of South African troops going home on board as well, so it was really a troop ship in a way, but there were quite a number of civilians on board. And we just jogged along really, I don’t know how long it took us, took us quite a while because we stopped here and there and everywhere. And then having got to Durban where there was an RAF Headquarters they said well we, ‘You are going to Rhodesia, so you will have to get the train from here up to Rhodesia,’ which I think in those days was five days, I think.
AM: Yeah.
WS: So, right, fair enough, off we go. There were four of us, five, four, four I think. One of them, when we got, when we got to Rhodesia, we had to report in to the headquarters in Salisbury. I was a senior officer so he started with the others. He had postings for them. One went to Gwelo, somewhere in Rhodesia, so that was one out the way. Another one went to one of them, in the Middle East. That left two and he hadn’t any postings through for them, and then he sent for me and he said, ‘Will you volunteer to stay on in the Air Force?’ I said, ‘Why are you asking me that?’ He said, ‘Well, it’s ridiculous. They’ve sent you all the way from England’, he said, ‘You’ve only got a month to do before you’re demobbed’. He said, ‘It’ll take you a month to learn the job that you’ve been sent to do’, he said, ‘You would be coming here to be responsible for all the equipment that is coming in to Rhodesia, because we’re going to resurrect the Empire Air Training Scheme again, you see’, because it had been like the one that went to Canada.
AM: Yeah.
WS: So I said, ‘No, I don’t want to volunteer’, so, ‘You’ll be getting promotion almost immediately’. He said, ‘You’d be up to squadron leader very soon.’
AM: So you’re a flight lieutenant at this point.
WS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah
WS: I was flight lieutenant. So I said, ‘No. I don’t. No’. I didn’t go into reasons with him and I didn’t go into, I just said I don’t want to go, and I won’t go into reasons again. There were family reasons, really that I didn’t want to do it. I had come to realise that the only life in the RAF was on a squadron.
AM: Yeah.
WS: I wasn’t going to be on a squadron. I was going to go to a maintenance unit, and I didn’t particularly want that sort of life, out in the colonies. So I said, ‘No, I’m going. I’m going to go home. I’ve got to go home’. So he said, ‘Oh’, he said, ‘This is causing me a problem’. I said, ‘Well I might be able to solve it for you’, I said, ‘There’s one chappie outside that’s come out with me from England’, which of course he knew, because he had the list there and he was going to have to post him. I said, ‘He wants to be out here, because he’s been out here earlier in the war.’ So he must have done his aircrew training out in Rhodesia.
AM: Yeah.
WS: He’d been out there. He’d got on with a girl, and he’d been trying to get back to that part of the world since. I said, ‘Well, look’, I said, ‘I don’t want to change places with him because he’s going to go to Cairo if he is, but’, I said, ‘I will do because of him’. And he said, ‘But I can’t’, he said, ‘I haven’t the authority to change the postings’. I said, ‘Well, what we can we do?’ So he said, ‘Well’, he said, ‘I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I’ll suspend all postings’. That’s mine and this other lad and one other who was going to have to go to the Middle East. He said, ‘I’ll suspend those postings until I get word from London’. I said, ‘Right. Ok. But’, I said, ‘Can you tell me how long that will be before you will get permission to do this?’ ‘Oh’, he said, ‘It’ll be about three days. That’s all’.
AM: Three days.
WS: ‘Three days’, he said. That’s all. I thought, ‘Oh blast’. He said ‘report in here, to headquarters, every morning, and then the postings will have come through one of the mornings, and then you can be on your way’, you see. It was three weeks before the postings came through, so we were kicking our heels in Salisbury. Well I didn’t mind, because Mike was at home and I could see him. But the thing I’ve regretted ever since, that I never got to the Victoria Falls.
AM: That you never -?
WS: Got to the Victoria Falls. I could so easily have done with that time off.
AM: Yeah. You’ve seen Niagara.
WS: Yeah. I’ve seen Niagara, I wanted to see the other one. Probably my own fault, I didn’t, sort of, push the matter, could I go off for a few days.
AM: So what did they do then? Just send you back?
WS: They sent me up to, they allowed him to change the postings.
AM: Yeah.
WS: So that I don’t, I don’t know what happened to the other lad at all. Whether he met the girl again.
AM: And lived happily after.
WS: Yeah.
AM: I feel a book coming on.
AH: Yes.
WS: But then I was, then of course, sent up to Cairo ‘cause I’d swapped places with him, you see. So we got up to, where did we get to?
AH: Cairo.
WS: No. No. No. On the way. We had to go to Pretoria.
AM: Oh right. Yeah.
WS: Right.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Because they couldn’t send us from where we were. That was down in South Africa wasn’t it? They couldn’t send us direct from there. We had to go to Pretoria. We get to Pretoria, they said, ‘What are you three doing here?’ We said, ‘Well you’ve got a posting for us’. He said, ‘We have, yes but’, he said, ‘You won’t be wanted for another ten days’. So, right, what are we going to do for ten days, lads? There was only three of us. Well, let’s go down into Pretoria and see what it’s like. See if it’s worth our spending our time here.
AM: That was the capital city at the time, wasn’t it?
WS: Pretoria was, yes, it was, I think it was then, yes. But it was very Boer country.
AM: Afrikaaners.
WS: Yeah. So we took a walk down, we didn’t know anything about Pretoria, we took a walk down into Pretoria, you see. I can see it now. We were walking down this side of the street and we were aware of a big bellied chap come from the other pavement, walked steadily across so that when he got across to where we were, he was in step with us. And he just said, ‘What are you buggers doing here?’ ‘Pardon?’ ‘If you stay here, you’ll get a knife in your back.’ Didn’t like us, you see. The Boers.
AM: Is this from, from the Boer war?
WS: And we were in uniform you see.
AM: Yeah.
WS: And then he went away. So we just looked at each other, we thought, we’re not going to stop here, so we hitch- hiked back down to Durban, because Durban was much friendlier and we knew that. And also one of the chappy’s had some very distant relations living in, and he said, ‘We’ll go and look them up’, which we did. We went and spent some time down there and then we had to hitch-hike back up to Pretoria to get to Cairo.
AM: So how long were you in Cairo?
WS: In Cairo.
AM: And what were you doing in Cairo?
WS: Well these other two had postings, so they’d gone.
AM: Yeah.
WS: Poor little me, all on my own, knowing nobody whatsoever. It was a huge camp and was only a holding camp, and it was hardly used, there was hardly anybody about. And it was under a tent as well, and the days went by, I thought, well there’s a posting coming through for me, so then eventually when, well after a few days, I went to the orderly room and said, ‘What about a posting for me?’ ‘Who are you?’
AM: Oh no, you’ve not dropped off, dropped off the list again.
WS: So I told him. He said, ‘Oh, we’ve got your name but’, he said, ‘We haven’t got any posting for you’. I said, ‘Well flipping heck, get me one’. I said, ‘I’m not, I’m fed up sitting in my tent reading, reading Agatha Christie’, then I pestered them for a couple of days and they got me a posting. They said, ‘You can go to a job in Cairo. You can go into the Junior Officer’s Club as your billet’. So that was ok. The job was nothing, I mean it was just sending little, I don’t know supplies of goods into one or two of the units that were out in Cairo, I was only just filling time in really.
AM: That’s, that’s —
WS: So I had nine months in the RAF.
AM: Nine months.
WS: From leaving, from leaving, when I was training operations [pause], until I was demobbed. Nine months sitting around Africa doing nothing.
AM: And that’s more or less what everyone says. Most.
WS: Amazing.
AM: Most people were waiting for demob —
WS: Yeah.
AM: Sent all sort of places to do nothing very much.
WS: Yeah.
AM: And just waiting.
WS: Yes.
AM: Waiting for demob.
WS: Yes. I mean, I reckon I was sort of lucky really because I was sort of on the move, more or less. And seen places I’d read about and -
AM: Yeah.
WS: Sort of thing, and also saw my pilot again. So I was pretty lucky really, I mean I think if you asked me to sum up my war, I would say it was a lucky one [laughs]
AM: Well yeah you got through it one piece
WS: Yeah.
AM: And saw Niagara Falls and the pyramids into the bargain.
AH: Yeah.
WS: Yeah. Saw the pyramids.
AH: Yeah. The Rockies. Yes.
WS: The Rockies. Yes. I wanted to see, yes.
AM: And then you came back. You never went into teaching, did you?
WS: No.
AM: No.
WS: No. No. Got a job.
AM: And then eventually, you’re going to have to tell me on the end of the tape, just a little bit about Jessica and how Jessica came. What did you actually do? You came back. So you didn’t go into teaching.
WS: No. I got a, you see, I’d had experience of controlling stores.
AM: Yeah.
WS: As an equipment officer.
AM: Yeah.
WS: It just so happened the college was looking for somebody. They had no system.
AM: Ampleforth College.
WS: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
WS: They had no system of controlling, particularly on the catering side, and one of the priests knew that I’d done this course in the RAF, so they offered me a job to go there.
AH: ‘Cause there wasn’t any central.
AM: That’s what you did.
WS: There wasn’t any central.
AH: The boys lived in school houses, and ate in school houses, so somebody’s got to order the stock and see that it gets to the houses.
WS: In the right quantities.
AH: In the right quantities, and they hadn’t had anybody doing that.
AM: Right, and they got a RAF man organising them.
WS: Yeah. Yeah. A tall point I suppose and, then you see, Joan was in the post office.
AM: Yes. So Joan was there anyway.
WS: I mean, that was one reason why I chose not to stay in the Air Force.
AM: Yeah.
WS: I knew that Joan wouldn’t have liked Air Force life, nor would I really, in peace time, so when they offered me this job at the college, I thought well, fine.
AM: And then you were telling me last week about how you got into writing.
WS: Yeah.
AM: And what have you.
WS: I always, I don’t know, I think I must have always felt like writing. I always loved reading, loved storytelling and I love facts, so I love non-fiction, and I thought I would like to write a non-fiction book about my time in the RAF, but then I would like to do a story so why not combine the pair of them. Then I could have some fictitious character based on the crew, and based on other people I knew in the Air Force, and knew the situation and knew about going down to Skeggy every night when we weren’t flying and all this sort of thing. And I just started to write this, just for my own satisfaction and it included quite a bit of what we’ve been talking about. I finished it and that was it, I mean, I knew nothing whatsoever about the publishing world, not a thing, and I put it in the drawer and that was it. But I still had this gnawing at me to do a bit more writing, you see, then it just so happened that one night we got the evening paper out of York, and I’m a poor newspaper reader, and I probably was then as well, but for some reason this particular night I, something must have moved me and I looked at it. There was a little piece in it, about this much, saying that there was a paperback company looking for war novels. I thought I’ve got one of them [laughs], so I sent it off. It was, they were running a competition actually, so I sent it off and whilst it didn’t win, they said they would like to publish it. And, hey, I’ve got a book published. Yeah, I can get this published, sit it up on the shelf next to Dickens and next to Shakespeare, you see.
AM: And Agatha Christie.
WS: But then I thought, I liked writing that book, what do I write about now? And for some reason, I thought I’d write a Western, because I’d read a lot of Westerns and I knew a lot about the West, and so I wrote a book. Again, what do I do with it? I don’t know what to do with it. What do I tell anybody that ask me that question now? I say go and look at who publishes them, but I never thought of that. I was about twenty miles out of York, and it wasn’t that easy to get in to York in those days, so I thought well there’s a thing called the Writers and Artists Yearbook and I think that lists publishers in it, and I had a look at that and it does, and it tells you what they publish. But it always said — fiction. Fiction. Fiction. Fiction - among the other books they published. Well that didn’t tell me what sort of fiction, so I thought, oh well, I’ll make a list of about six of them and send it out to them. Then it came back, ‘Sorry. We don’t publish Westerns’, ‘Sorry. We don’t publish Westerns’, ‘Sorry. We don’t publish Westerns’, you see. And I thought well this is a bit of a dead loss isn’t it? Well, I thought I may as well send it again, a couple of times. ‘Sorry. We don’t publish Westerns’, and then one came back, because they’re always, you can always tell they’re typed out by the secretary and then someone scribbles on it and signs it. ‘Sorry. We don’t publish Westerns’, and he’d taken his pen and signed it, and then that dear man had taken the trouble to write with his pen, ‘Try Hale’. I thought, hello, he will know the publishing world and he said, ‘Try Hale’. I knew that Robert Hale’s were a publisher. The man that had taken the trouble to write, “Try Hales was Alan Boon, of Mills and Boon fame.
AM: Yeah.
WS: So I thought I’d send it to Hale, so I sent it to Hales, and Hales said, ‘We like this. Go on writing Westerns for us’. So somehow or other, I’d got the right length and the right sort type of thing and so I wrote thirty six of them before I finished.
AH: He became Jim Bowden from his place where he was in Canada.
AM: I’ve seen the books in the bookshelf.
WS: Bowden was the first place I was —
AH: Posted.
WS: Posted in Canada.
AH: In Canada.
WS: So that’s how I got more and more into writing, and whilst I was doing these Westerns, I got interested in whaling. The history of whaling through going to Whitby.
AM: Yeah.
WS: And eventually, I only did it out of interest really, but eventually, I realised I was getting sufficient information together to do a history of whaling, and I put the idea out and so on and so I was said yeah —
AM: Yeah.
WS: Somebody was interested in the history of whaling so I completed this book. What did I do then?
AH: Well that was “Harpooned”.
WS: That was “Harpooned” yeah.
AH: And that was published.
WS: That was published in 1980.
AH: And you’d got all the information.
WS: Yeah.
AH: About whaling and decided to put it into a novel, so you wrote a novel based on whaling.
AM: And that was, and that was “The Red Shawl”, and that was, “The Red Shawl.”
WS: That’s right.
AH: But it wasn’t initially, but they sent it off to one or two publishers, didn’t you, to start with?
WS: Well then it went to —
AH: Piatkus.
WS: Piatkus.
AH: And Piatkus said they would like to publish it.
AM: However —
WS: Sorry. Sorry Anne, no, it wasn’t Piatkus that published it, it was Conway Maritime Press.
AH: No, that was “Harpooned”. We’re on to, that was “Harpooned.” Yeah.
WS: “Harpooned”. Yes. That was “Harpooned” yes but that led to the —
AH: The novel.
AM: On to the novel.
AH: Yes.
AM: So the novel is going to be published, but we don’t want it to be by Bill Spence. We would like you to be called —
WS: Jessica Blair. That’s right.
AM: Jessica Blair. And how many novels later? How many Jessica Blair novels later?
WS: Twenty six. I’m finishing twenty six.
AH: Yeah, you’ve just finished twenty six, you’ve just finished the twenty sixth. The twenty fifth has just been published.
AM: Yeah. And on that note.
WS: I don’t know.
AM: It just shows you though doesn’t it? That, you know, bomb aimer, RAF, Bomber Command, Jessica Blair. The twists and turns that life takes.
AH: Yes.
WS: If you want to be my publicity —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Spence
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-15
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASpenceWD160315, PSpenceWD1601, PSpenceWD1603, PSpenceWD1604,
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:58:58 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Spence was born in Middlesborough. He abandoned his teacher training and joined the Royal Air Force in 1942 becoming a bomb aimer. He completed 36 operations during his time in Bomber Command. Bill tells of his experiences while training in Canada, how he hoped that he would be posted near the Canadian Rockies, and reminisces the people he met. He tells of being taken off a pilot training course because of an incident with a Tiger Moth where he ground looped it and it ended up on its nose. He flew in Ansons and Wellingtons, and was then posted to 29 Operational Training Unit; then, in 1944, to a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Swinderby. He eventually went to 5 Lancaster Finishing School at RAF RAF Syerston, where he flew on his first Lancaster.
Bill was transferred to 44 Squadron based at RAF Dunholme Lodge. He tells of his operation to Harburg, which was their intended target, but they ended up over Hamburg in the middle of a bombing operation because wind had not been accounted for. Bills also recounts how his aircraft was one of the first to drop their bombs on Dresden; he contends that the city was a legitimate target and distrusts the judgement of those who did not take part to the operation. After the war, he spent time in Rhodesia and also in Pretoria, where he tells of his encounter with an Afrikaner who threatened him because of his ethnicity. After the war, Bill worked at Ampleforth College controlling stores for the catering side. After writing a war novel which he had published in a local newspaper, he then tried his hand at writing westerns with Hales Publishing. His pen name was Jim Bowden, after the place he was stationed in Canada. He also writes under the pen name of Jessica Blair, and is now on his 26th book.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Hamburg
South Africa
South Africa--Pretoria
Zimbabwe
Canada
Alberta
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
44 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
coping mechanism
crash
crewing up
fear
FIDO
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Bitteswell
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RCAF Bowden
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/623/8893/APayneTP160422.2.mp3
fc4b01b6764969b85edb5037558eebd1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Thomas Peter
T P Payne
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, TP
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. Two oral history interviews with Flying Officer Peter Payne (b. 1925, 1398674, 199071 Royal Air Force)auto biographies and his log book. He flew as a pilot with 90 and 15 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Peter Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-04
2016-07-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 21st of April 2016 and I’m in Hemel Hempstead with Tom Payne and we’re giving a second interview here. It’s the 20th.
TP: 22nd.
CB: It is. Oh the 22nd. Sorry.
TP: Tomorrow is St George’s Day.
CB: Ah.
TP: Which should be a national holiday.
CB: Yes. Quite right. And so Tom is going, as you gather, is a sprightly man and he’s going to start off, please, Tom by your earliest recollections and then right through to at least the end of the war. Please.
TP: Well, I was born in Marlowes, Hemel Hempstead, in a cottage which had two bedrooms and the rear bedroom was accessed through my parents’ bedroom so we couldn’t stay out late and come in without them knowing. I was born in 1925, in December and I already had two brothers but one was much older being born before the First World War. I had one sister. My earliest recollections are of the building of the Public House at the end of our row because originally it was one of our cottages but they built a new one behind it and then knocked down the cottages that had formed the pub. I’ve got a photograph of the day that pub was closed or I assume it was. A picture of a group of men sitting outside and one of which was my dad. He was obviously a very very regular visitor to it and it was only three doors from home and he wouldn’t have any problems. The front of, frontage of the pub had a drive in and drive out when they moved the cottage and it had a row of small wooden posts with iron chains linked between them. But these chains weren’t just ordinary linked. They also had spikes on them. And I remember trying to skip over them and falling and one entered my knee which was very painful and taught me a lesson that you’ve got to make sure you’ve got enough height when you’re trying to clear an obstacle. I went to Bury Road School which was about a mile away I suppose. No buses there. Had to walk. My brothers also went there. Although my eldest brother had been to Boxmoor School because of the war but the cooperation between our neighbours we all went to school together. No mums took us. We just had to find our own way. And no real major road to cross because Marlowes whilst it was a through road you just kept to one side, down Bridge Street and along Cotterells and we were there. Quite a happy crowd at school. The headmaster was newly joined to us but he had a crash on his motorbike hitting a cow which put him in hospital for some months so I didn’t get to know him too well. But the result in 1936 we all sat the exam. The 11-plus. Well before I was eleven of course but I passed for the Central School as did two of my mates at school. So in 1936 I was over to Two Waters Central School which, that consisted of four classes which took you through ‘til you were fifteen. It was a happy school. Twenty boys and twenty girls of each year from eleven upwards but unfortunately after a couple of years the secondary modern education started and the new school was built in Crabtree Lane which housed all 11-plus children from the boy’s school. Separate from the girl’s school. The Central School had to be amalgamated in to the secondary modern because the staff had all got jobs at the secondary modern and the headmaster became headmaster of the Crabtree Lane School. That was a Mr Barnard. More of him later because our paths did cross when I joined the air force but still [pause] I stayed at school until I was fifteen whereas most of the boys around me left at fourteen. But the three Central School chaps from Bury Road we stayed on ‘til fifteen and went into local businesses. I joined John Dickinson’s as a junior foreman which was just running around with bits of paper and collecting the output from the girls on the production machines making paper bags. It was quite interesting but it was boring. Unfortunately, the war had started and my cousin, who was living in Dorset as an only child of my mother’s younger sister [pause. Someone enters the room], sorry. Come. My daughter. Come in love.
CB: That’s fine. Do you want to stop?
TP: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: Sorry love. She’s captain of Bermondsey Golf Club.
TP: Oh right.
CB: Ladies captain I mean.
CB: So we were just talking about the fact that you left school and went to Dickinson’s.
TP: Yeah. Yeah. I went to Dickinson’s
CB: And it was a boring job.
TP: Yeah. The foreman of course above me was also an ex-Central School chap. We got on well together. But my cousin who joined the air force immediately pre-war was an observer on Blenheim’s and he was with 21 Squadron but he was not very enamoured with the flying and the dangers and he did write a letter to an old school chum of his saying he realised it was only a matter of time before they got the chop. The losses were very high at that period and unfortunately in June 1940 he was posted as missing presumed killed which was a hell of a shock to everybody. But I didn’t find out until after the war exactly what had happened to him and his body is buried in France with his other two crew members and he was actually flying with 15 Squadron which I joined later. But we didn’t know that at the time because the losses on 21 had been so great they had to amalgamate them altogether. Still flying out of Wyton but that was the way it went. So that summer I did try. I took the bus in to Watford. Put my long trousers on and I went to the recruiting office but the sergeant there said, ‘Come back when you can shave. ’ So that rather upset me but it meant that by 1941 I decided that I would approach the ministry, the Air Ministry direct. And I had a separate appointment sent to me to report to Euston in November 1941. I was still fifteen but they thought I was nearly eighteen and I got away with it. I was put on deferred service. Given an RAF VR badge which I’ve still got and wear it very proudly and then had to just wait for my call up. One of the conditions of being on deferred service was to attend ATC. Now, Mr Barnard was the commanding officer of 1187 Squadron in Hemel Hempstead so I arrived there one evening and he welcomed me with open arms and said he wondered how long it would be before I came in and I said, ‘Well I have been committed to come to you.’ And he said, ‘What do you mean?’ So I gave him the documents that I had to pass over and he read them through and looked at me and he said, ‘You’re not old enough.’ I said, ‘Well you know that. I know that but they don’t,’ and he immediately stood up, came around the desk, shook me by the hand and said, ‘Congratulations. I know you’ll do well.’ And so I joined the ATC as a deferred service airmen. No uniform but I did attend their lectures and started to learn aircraft recognition and Morse code and all the other little bits that go with it but in April ‘42 I received my call up papers to report to ACRC at St John’s Wood. And there, with ninety nine others, we formed a flight or rather a shower of people shuffling along the road at first but the corporal was instilling into us the discipline of marching. Tallest on the right and shortest on the left and everything else to be able to form up and show a reasonable body of men and after five weeks of inoculations and vaccinations and uniform issue and getting bits of uniform that would fit you we felt reasonable as airmen. Unfortunately, we had other jobs to do and one of them was scrubbing the concrete floors of our billet in Hall Road in North London. So I was limping when I went on parade one day and the corporal called me out and made me report sick because I’d got a very large swelling on my knees. And the doctor, the MO, looked at them and said, ‘Are you very religious?’ To which I said, ‘No. ’ So he said, ‘Well you’ve got housemaid’s knee,’ and as a result of that a directive was issued to all the corporals to provide kneeling pads in the future but we still had to scrub the concrete floors. After a couple of days I was back on normal duties and looking forward to a posting but there was a big hold up in front of us. We learned much later that the influx of potential aircrew was greater than they anticipated and the losses at the far end weren’t high enough to compensate for the people going through. So they extended all the courses. They put in another course for us so instead of after five weeks of ACRC instead of three we did five and then we got posted to a village called Ludlow in Shropshire. And we arrived there — all still a hundred of us but the field had a slope on it. It was very wet. It was raining. There was a lorry already parked inside the field and inside were thirteen bell tents from World War One. And we were told to erect them in a row and allocated join up. Eight in a tent leaving the corporal to share with only four others at the end. He took the four biggest blokes so that was reasonable and we ended up later that evening lying on mattresses on top of our ground sheets with our feet to the pole and our heads to the outside. But if you wanted to get up in the night and go and relieve yourself it was a question of trampling all over other bodies to get out. And I was fortunate. I’d got the position near the flap opening so it didn’t affect me all that much. We stayed there several weeks. [pause — pages turning] Yeah. It was about a month and it was now late June and we got our postings through to ITW. Ours came. We were sent to Torquay. To the Toorak Hotel. And this was in one of the side streets of the town but it was quite a pleasant place and we soon sorted ourselves out into the rooms and we had sheets, at long last and comfortable beds to get into. The only trouble was you had to make your bed every morning. Fold the sheets square with the blankets folded underneath and wrapped around and have the kit laid out on the bed so it could be inspected. The inspection was quite severe and discipline was really tough and one had to learn that the corporal wasn’t your mate or friend. He was corporal and ruled the roost. The rest of the staff were quite friendly. Our officer was a golfer by the name of Sandy Lyle I believe. Our PTI was Spur’s goalkeeper Ted Ditchburn. Very friendly fella. He was a corporal but got promoted to sergeant while on the course. We did cross country runs. Wonderful going through these apple orchards. Bright red apples. So obviously they lost a few of them but when we tried to eat them of course they were cider apples so we soon learned that was not the thing to do.
[Recording paused]
Whilst at Torquay we had regular visits. This was from late June until the November of ‘42 and most evenings in the summer the Luftwaffe would pay us visits with Messerschmitt 109s and Fokker Wulf 190s coming in low over the sea out of the sun. They weren’t seen until the last few seconds and the gunners on the cliff had no option but to start firing at them while they were pulling up over the town and a lot of the damage in the town was caused by the shrapnel from the guns as much as the cannon from the Fokker Wulf 190. It was very disturbing. And they also carried small bombs and they hit the girl’s school which, luckily, they were empty. They were on holiday. But tragically in the — later in that stay there they actually hit the Palace Hotel which was used as a RAF hospital and it housed a lot of the Battle of Britain fighters that had been, pilots that had been burned in their aircraft and the losses I don’t think were actually known at the time. It was all kept secret and nobody knew but I’ve been to a reunion down there and met the nursing staff that were on duty at the time. I was on the duty at headquarters where we just had a 303 rifle and three bullets. Or five I think it was in the end. But mainly it was fire picket duty but we never had any incidents. No problems at all. But several of my friends got injured whilst in the town. They were queuing up for the cinema and the High Street got shot up but apart from the cannon on the 190 there was also the pieces of concrete that were thrown around as potholes were made when the bullets hit the ground and scattered into the crowd. And one of my mates was working helping the rescue and he felt a bit draughty himself and he found blood pouring down his leg and he was a casualty of a piece of shrapnel which was something about eight inches long which had penetrated his fleshy part of the top of his leg and with the adrenalin running and helping everybody else he hadn’t noticed he himself had been injured. He had that as a souvenir to carry around with him but he was in hospital for quite a while, while his wound healed up. I can’t remember the chap’s name. There was too many of us. I spent a spell down there. I had breathing problems with the heat. I spent, I think it was three nights in the Palace Hotel myself. They certainly looked after us but as an AC2 I didn’t get any sort of [laughs] additional help. Anyway, I passed all the exams and became an LAC and the pay increased from two and six to three bob a day. So that was alright. And was posted immediately from Torquay to 4 EFTS up at Brough in Yorkshire for twelve hours flying on Tiger Moths. This was in November to early December ‘42 and I went solo before my seventeenth birthday. Or nineteenth according to the RAF. Then of course it was a question of getting Christmas leave which I was very fortunate enough to do and was posted to Heaton Park in Manchester which was a holding unit where hundreds of potential under-training aircrew of all sorts, shapes and sizes were held. A lot of us were fortunate enough to get private billet accommodation where I must admit that the locals were very very kind to us and looked after us well. The main thing about Heaton Park was the weather. I think it rained almost every day except if it didn’t it was snow. And we had a few diversionary postings from there to other departments where we did some training. One of them was to Filey over in Yorkshire where we went on a commando course in January ’43. And to say it was cold would be an understatement. Our billets were the boarding houses along the seafront. Three or four stories high with sash windows and the strength of the wind coming straight from Russia was enough to keep them rattling all night although we managed to solve that problem with stuffing and with newspaper. I don’t know how long they lasted but I’m sure they can’t still be there now so. [laughs] Unless Everest have done a lot of double glazing. They certainly needed it. And back to Heaton Park and eventually we had a posting to say — you’re off. Nobody knew where but we had a train and it went north and we arrived up in Scotland and found that there was a troop ship lying out in Scapa Flow which was to be our home for a few days and we assumed being as we was up in Scotland that it was heading across the Atlantic and we were going to Canada. But it was rough crossing the Irish Sea first of all and none of us got our sea legs and there was all the food floating up and down the tables in trays. Slopping around down there. It was a revolting sight but once we’d settled it wasn’t too bad. Then of course we had an outbreak of Scarlet Fever. Who brought it on board nobody’s sure but there was quite a lot on our deck that were affected. The result was that the ship, which was really the Empress of Japan and had been re-named Empress of Scotland, still had the name Japan across, carved in the letters on the back of course. But we arrived and went in New York. Zigzagging across the Atlantic with everybody that was available would be up on deck scanning the horizon looking for U-boats. Icebergs were another danger and we did see one or two. But we docked in New York and the first thing was that the military came aboard and all those that were in the sick bay on Scarlet Fever were taken off and rushed to hospitals. And we were then marshalled onto trains which no locals were allowed to come near. We stopped once. I think it must have been around Boston or somewhere and some more people were taken off to hospital with Scarlet Fever. And we eventually arrived in Canada. Get into Moncton where we were all put in isolation and the following day we all had to be examined medically with a thing known as a Schick and Dick test which saw whether you were subject to Diphtheria or Scarlet Fever. If any of the inoculations proved positive you were put in close confinement but the rest that were negative got their postings. Having been put in close confinement you were then put on a course of injections and — but eventually posted and I got to Neepawa EFTS. Did my flying there in March, April and early or mid-May. Passed the EFTS ok. No problems. And got posted to SFTS on Oxfords at a place called Swift Current. However, got to Swift Current, had my last injection and within a matter of days I was in hospital with Scarlet Fever. In strict isolation so I lost all my buddies. A lot of them got washed off the course anyway. Come around to the window of the hospital to wave goodbye. And eventually the few that remained got their Wings in July and got on their way back to the UK. I, on the other hand, remained in hospital until, I think it was the end of May. About then. Yeah. It was in May and didn’t finish my course as a pilot until October when I got my Wings and then got shipped back to Moncton. We were only there a couple of weeks before we were on the Mauritania at Halifax and heading back to Liverpool. That was quite, quite a journey. We were allowed to go home for Christmas from Harrogate where we were to be stationed and after Christmas reported. This was now January ‘44. Having been a pilot for three months there was still no news of any postings. You got dotted around the country and sent to various courses. A little bit of refresher flying in Scotland at Perth and it was always back to Harrogate until eventually in May I got a posting to Feltwell which was number 3 Lanc Finishing School but it wasn’t Lancs for me. It was merely to be their airfield controller while the weeks passed by before I could get to OTU. I was there of course for the D-day period which was quite an event because Feltwell had a grass airfield but with Summerfield tracking. The hut at the end of the main runway was below the hump in the middle of the runway so you couldn’t see the full length and D-day plus two or three we were advised that our American friends would be dropping in on us because they’d got enemy aircraft over their bases to the, in the east of England. We had a few B17s come in. We had gooseneck flares so they were all lit up. But then there was an almighty crash in the — over the hill.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Heard it. [?] Couldn’t find out what it was. Sent an erk on his bike to have a look and he come back and said that two Fortresses had locked themselves together and were blocking the rest of the runway. So I sent them off to douse the gooseneck flares while I stood on the end of the runway with a verey pistol firing reds in to the air. Couple still managed to get in. How they missed the crash I don’t know. More luck than judgement or perhaps the idea was they couldn’t fly. They had no instrument flying experience and night-time flying to them was a hazard. But the other two got down. Luckily, we learned there was no — nobody killed in the crash. A few of them got some minor injuries but most of them had leapt out as soon as the aircraft had hit but one had run up the fuselage of the other and chewed it right the way through but all the airmen, aircrew that were in the back of the Boeing must have got out pretty smart and missed it all. Went around the wreckage in daylight and was amazed at the comfort that was in the B17 compared to British aircraft. I’d been inside the Lancs at 3 LFS but to go inside a B17 with all its sort of [capod?] filled padding which was clipped on to the walls everywhere and I did find a couple of nice rectangular sections which came in use much later in life as a cot blanket for my first daughter. [laughs] But the wrecks were soon removed and I finished my spell at Feltwell and headed off to Cambridge to have a month’s refresher flying before going on to Kidlington where we had another month getting used to flying Oxfords and during that period we went back to Feltwell for a week because they had the beam approach training facilities there which we hadn’t got at Kidlington or Cambridge. So I was, felt at home when I got back to Feltwell for that week. And then, out of the blue in September after being back at Kidlington and finishing AFU I got a posting to 26 OTU at Wing. Thirteen months after getting my wings I was at last going to fly Wellingtons. And there of course the first thing you did at Wing was get crewed up and it consisted of all the aircrews except — all the aircrew except flight engineers. Put in a hangar and you sort of wandered around looking to see who looked a reasonable sort of chap and chose your crew. I picked up a bomb aimer who had befriended a Canadian navigator and between us, the three of us, we then found a couple of air gunners and a wireless operator. We had the two gunners picked at OTU although you only used one on a Wellington at a time. But tragically one of the air gunners let us down. Totally out of the blue. He’d come to my wedding in December. All the crew came to the wedding because we all had Christmas leave. But then in January whilst flying on a night cross country he suddenly lost it. Went berserk. And I passed a message to the wireless operator to tell base I was aborting. Coming down below oxygen level in case it was a problem of that and straight back to Wing. We were met at dispersal by an ambulance crew. He was frozen in the turret. They had a job to get the turret open but he was taken away and nobody ever saw him again. I presume he was marked LMF which was a great shame because he was a nice guy but thankfully it had happened at OTU and not at —on an operation. But we soon picked up another gunner. Phil. Quite a chubby fella but he was great. Great company. And we all got posted off to — we spent a couple of weeks at Sturgate in charge of the blanket store. But our posting suddenly came through for North Luffenham in the March of 1945. We spent the next two months flying around in a Lancaster doing cross country’s, bombing raids on the ranges. Some nights we were sent on diversionaries which meant us flying towards the enemy but turning away before we reached them, much to our dismay. And it was quite an interesting time. Loved flying the Lancaster. It was beautiful. A beautiful aeroplane. And all seven of us — we’d picked up the flight engineer by then. He was originally a pilot. He’d finished his course and was offered the chance to re-muster either as a glider pilot or as a flight engineer. The majority I understand choose flight engineers. So they went on a separate engineer’s course and then joined us at the Heavy Con Unit. After finishing Con Unit of course during that period we, VE day had arrived and it was quite interesting the discussions that were had in the big hangar after we did a rehearsal until some bright spark suggested to the CO that if the band played a more recognisable tune it might be more suitable and there was deadly silence and the bandmaster said, ‘Sir. That was the march past of the Royal Air Force.’ [laughs] Again, there was silence and everybody accusing everybody else of not being able to do their job but it was quite funny for a few minutes. After finishing Heavy Con Unit we were all sent on leave but I had a recall. A telegram to report to 90 Squadron at Tuddenham and not being on the telephone or in contact with any others I expected to find my crew when I got to Tuddenham. Unfortunately, when I arrived I went in to the CO’s office and I was introduced to my crew who had just lost their Australian skipper because all Commonwealth aircrew were taken off of flying and that’s how I lost my navigator. So I lost my whole crew. A bit annoyed of course but soon got to know the guys. Did a couple of flights with them. A couple of Baedekers over Germany going down the Ruhr showing the ground staff the bomb damage ostensibly as a exercise for them but in reality it was very political for, to let the Germans, particularly the residents in the Ruhr and Cologne was a special one to let them see what the Lancaster looked like in daylight. And there we were at two thousand feet. Any given time there would be fifty to eighty Lancasters circling Cologne at two thousand feet and it must have caused the kids down below to be terrified. But politically it was obviously a good exercise. And I was only there for the month when the CO suddenly decided that he’d got a brother who was stationed at 15 Squadron at Mildenhall and would I like to swap with him? Well I was only a flight sergeant by then and so I went over to Mildenhall to meet the CO. A Wing commander McFarlane. And when I walked into his office, gave him a salute he looked and he said, he was very surprised, ‘Oh. You’re Payne. Sorry,’ he said, ‘But we only have — we don’t have non-commissioned personnel as captains of our aircraft. So you are hereby commissioned and you have a week’s leave to get your uniform. Thank you very much.’ So I was a pilot officer or so I thought but after a week I turned back, I returned back to Mildenhall and I was accused of being incorrectly dressed because I was a flying officer apparently. Immediate promotion. [laughs] Much to my wife’s surprise. She lost her payment book because officers are paid the wife’s money and as a gentleman you are obviously expected to hand it over. It shook me I tell you but — and also of course at the same time I had been giving my mother a tanner a day which was recommended when we joined the air force so that if anything happened to you she would be able to claim a pension of some sort. But of course when I was commissioned that had to stop as well which was — my mum understood but I don’t think the wife really took it very kindly but she enjoyed the increased money anyway. Then as I say I was a flying officer. Settled in at Mildenhall quite well. We did several trips. Mostly things like going to Italy to bring back British troops on to England. Twenty at a time stuck in the fuselage but you had to, you weren’t allowed to use the automatic pilot because there had been one or two crashes which they had assumed had been caused by automatic pilot failure at low level or two thousand feet or so. You didn’t go very high because the troops would have needed — no heating in the fuselage. We also did, a little earlier on we did a, one of the first things we did was a post mortem on the German radar at Kiel where a few hundred of us in daylight approached Kiel and we were all given heights to fly but I found myself being covered in Window so I throttled back a bit because the cloud, I was just in the base of the cloud. Fortunately, I did the right thing at the right time because there appeared a B17 in front where I’m sure that every crew member except the pilot was shovelling out Window and it was smothering my aircraft and blocking up air intakes and God knows what else. So if we’d have carried on we would have run straight into them so we realised that the danger of collision at night when a thousand planes were over the target or large numbers over the target at any one time. The danger of collision was, must have been very great and we understood from later discussions with various boffins that they had calculated that on those raids up to a third could be lost. So that’s two thousand men could have been lost at night just by friendly action of running in to each other without any enemy action taking place at all. And that’s why they trained so many of us and fortunately we had the back up. Fortunately, the losses weren’t as great as they predicted and they were still high enough. I doubt whether we’ll ever know the numbers that were involved of mid-air collisions with friendly aircraft or aircraft being hit by bombs being dropped from planes flying higher. We know that there were instances but how many? Nobody can tell. Well, my period at Mildenhall finished in ‘45. I was sent on an instructor’s flying course. Lulsgate Bottom at Bristol. My wife was expecting our first child at the time so I had more interest in getting home at weekends than stopping and hanging around Bristol. Fortunately there was a chicken farm quite close to the airfield and I was able to take a couple of dozen eggs home most weekends which were gratefully received by the population at home. Finally I was demobbed. Officially at Bruntingthorpe but I don’t ever remember going there but that is my, supposedly the depot where I was discharged from and there I got into Civvy Street. This was the end of ‘46 and my first child was born in the July of ‘46 so it was a family life and a question of trying to find accommodation because I was living with my parents and eventually the council obliged by providing a three bedroom house which was just in time for our second child two years later.
CB: Ok. We’ll take a pause there.
TP: Yeah. [pause] Housing.
[Recording paused]
CB: We’re just restarting. Talking about the perversities of some of these things but the fact that the Germans were well organised.
TP: Yeah well they obviously had planned. They planned the war. They knew the war was going to come and their reactions were all done in the same manner. They had developed the aircraft and the U-boats and the rockets and everything else. The flying bombs didn’t happen by accident. That had been planned years before and so was the V2s. But our biggest disappointment I think in 1940, as an Englishman was the fact that we had to go through Dunkirk. Evacuate our soldiers when there were a half a million French troops under arms. There were only two hundred thousand German troops attacking but half a million just gave in and left us in the lurch because we had to get out with our backs to the wall. And I met some of the troops that were fighting at the time. Not at Dunkirk but further along the coast and I was fortunate enough for the 51st Highlanders to be over in France when they were having their last reunion a few years ago because I was visiting the grave of my cousin. And there were a few of the men there that were there in 1940 and they were captured by the Germans because they hadn’t any ammunition left. They’d fought to the last bullet virtually and that was it. But they couldn’t be evacuated from the port because the Germans were attacking all the while. So it was very well planned by the Germans. They knew exactly what they were doing all through. And it was only the bravery of the guys on D-day that got them on shore. I mean it must have been a terrible thing for those first bods that were coming over knowing they were walking straight into the face of gunfire which they were totally exposed on the beaches, you know. But I did meet one other soldier in Tring and he was injured. He had a bullet through his fleshy part of his leg on his way up to the coast and because of that the Germans were coming so he lay in a ditch for twelve hours while they all went by him and then headed south. Pinched a bicycle and carried on riding until he got down in to Southern France. He was hoping to get on the — that ship that got blown up as it left Bordeaux or somewhere down there and he met a naval force that was in town blowing up various installations and they picked him up and took him with them and he came back on their destroyer.
CB: This was 1940.
TP: In 1940.
CB: Yeah.
TP: So he was absolutely dead lucky because he was in the right place at the right time to get away.
CB: So what was your perception of the German air war and how they conducted it on Britain?
TP: Well. I think, you know, they [pause] if they’d have carried on the attacks on airfields and destroying those they might have stood a better chance but because they then switched to the cities it was a saviour for us. But we had no real defence. We were down to the last few Hurricanes and Spitfires. And the tragedy was that the coordination of the various fighting groups’ — Fighter Command to my mind they, they weren’t concentrating enough on what they should do. Thinking they could get a high wing together of a thousand fighters. By the time they’d got a thousand fighters half of them were out of fuel and had to come down and land. It was, you know, they hadn’t thought it through.
CB: And here you were in Hemel Hempstead which is between London and Coventry and Birmingham. What did you see of the German air force? Aircraft coming over.
TP: Well I —
CB: Before you joined the RAF. As a youngster I mean.
TP: Well when I was still at school —
CB: Yeah.
TP: I saw a Dornier come over one day. A Dornier come over. The air raid sirens hadn’t gone but I recognised it from aircraft recognition. It was a Dornier. And it dropped its bombs over Nash Mills Way. It was like the day war broke out. On a Sunday. There was a gathering of council officials, the ARP warden, the town clerk’s office and others in Marlowes. They were looking at the stone mason’s yard and were wondering whether to send people over to the Princes Arms area where Edney’s had a place where they were making tarpaulins. Should they bring the tarpaulins and cover up the stone mason’s yard. And when I tried to tell them that if an aircraft came over and was going to bomb anything he wouldn’t bomb a cemetery or a yard he would bomb the railway line or the canal [laughs] And they told me to be off.
CB: Yeah.
TP: That was the sort of mental attitude of the adults of the time.
CB: Yeah.
TP: They had no experience of air war. I hadn’t of course.
CB: No.
TP: But I had the intelligence to know that if you’re up there looking for a target you’re going to hit a railway line or a canal or a junction of some sort rather than bomb what looked like a churchyard or a cemetery.
CB: Yeah. I mean it’s difficult to perceive in a way but in 1939 aircraft had only been around for twenty five years.
TP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And people’s perception of what they could —
TP: And of course the speeds of the aircraft. We hardly saw a Spitfire or a Hurricane over Hemel Hempstead. We did, as I say, see German bombers. Two or three times and at night time you heard them go over because you could tell by the way they didn’t synchronise their engines. It was a very identifiable feature. We always synchronised our engines with a Lanc you know.
CB: Yeah. Of course. On a Lancaster. Yes
TP: It meant it was a smoother ride and it was quieter but the Germans had this —
CB: Makes more of a clatter.
TP: Well yeah.
CB: A drone was it?
TP: The engines weren’t synchronised.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And they would be fighting against each other. So you could identify the noise immediately. That it was an enemy aircraft.
CB: That’s interesting.
TP: Whether you would hear that in a fighter I doubt it —
CB: No.
TP: Because you had your own noises but certainly from the ground you knew there was enemy aircraft. And of course in the early days without the radar enemy aircraft would be over here and everywhere the sirens would go but nobody would know where the aircraft was.
CB: And near to here for German targets you had Watford, Leavesden for aircraft production and also Hatfield.
TP: Oh yeah.
CB: So to what extent did you — were you aware of that?
TP: Well, I knew of that. I knew that those places were producing but I think generally we didn’t. There was no news in the newspapers and of course there was no television anyway. They’d had to have been shut down. But the general feeling at school when the sirens went everybody went down the shelters and after two or three hours down there as a senior prefect I went up with the night guy. We went up to get the rations of Horlicks tablets and things like that and the all-clear went. [laughs]
CB: So could you just describe the air raid shelters in a civilian context? So in Hemel Hempstead what were the air raid shelters? What were they?
TP: Well the air raid shelters in Hemel Hempstead. There were a few public ones. The ones in Marlowes were opposite where my mother lived and they used to go over there at night apparently when the sirens were on because of the dangers. You could hear the noise and see the lights from London when London was being bombed. I did a stint when I was — before I went in the air force as a fire watcher in Lower Marlowes where it was organised by the fellow that owned the DIY shop. If anybody wanted some DIY he had all his stall of paints and timbers and everything so he obviously wanted protection. So we had an old cottage that we used as a base for fire watching and that was — we did one night on, two nights off sort of thing. Between us there was enough of the shopkeepers to join in but there were very few private residences down from Bridge Street to the arch. There weren’t sufficient privately occupied houses as opposed to all the businesses which lock up.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And most of them went away but we never had any instances in that area. There were some fire bombs dropped the other side of Marlowes somewhere down in [Sewells?] Road area apparently. And of course there were bombs in Nash Mills. We did have, I wasn’t, I wasn’t around then, I was in the air force — we did have some bombs drop in Astley Road where, opposite to the school I used to go to. Infant school. I think one person died in one of the houses. That house had to be totally rebuilt but it was a clear cut bomb. Another, I think it was more like an oil drum landed at the back of the off-licence at the bottom of the street. And others landed in the park. There were craters in Gadebridge Park which were a pretty sight. [laughs]
CB: Well the Germans used land mines didn’t they?
TP: Yeah.
CB: That’s what looked like an oil drum but actually came down by parachute.
TP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But as far as I know the one at the bottom of Astley Road they didn’t find a parachute or perhaps somebody whipped the parachute [laughs] before the forces came. I wasn’t around at that. I was in the forces.
CB: No.
TP: But there was one that landed with the bomb.
CB: Well they were silk so they made good dresses. Nash Mills was where the printing works was it? Of Dickinson’s. John Dickinson’s.
TP: Well John Dickinson’s had got the factories just beyond where they hit a row of houses.
CB: Oh.
TP: And I think two of the houses were destroyed but they were parallel to the canal so whether he was aiming for the canal or whether it was shortfall from the factory you just couldn’t tell.
CB: No.
TP: Because bomb aiming in those days was hit and miss.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. You could —
TP: And it was only area bombing that really could succeed if you []
CB: Yeah. As we are talking about the civilian context here could you describe what was the air raid shelter? What was it? Made especially was it?
TP: Yeah, it was.
CB: And what it was like inside?
TP: Yeah. The public air raid shelter. We didn’t have the private Andersons ones in Hemel. They weren’t issued to Hemel but the one in lower Marlowes at the back of [Tozers?]. I suppose it was about thirty foot long. It was half submerged but well protected and it had benches down each side as far as I recollect. I never spent any time in there. I was in the forces but I know because my mother used to take in evacuees. She had two or three people from London that stayed with us while they found somewhere else to live. She had a couple of, a couple of girls. School age. Teenagers. And then she had one chap who had lost an eye in London. With his son. I think the son played football later on for one of the London teams. Stokes I think his name was. And then she had a family. A couple and their teenage son and they went back to London eventually although the son stayed in Hemel and he lived in St Alban’s Hill.
CB: Right.
TP: Near where Derek’s. Before you get to Derek’s in Lawn Lane itself. Or somewhere near. Eventually.
CB: But the air raid shelter was made of concrete was it? And then covered with earth. How was it made?
TP: Difficult to say. I didn’t see it being constructed.
CB: No.
TP: But it was well protected with earth and everything.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Over the top. Usual shape.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And of course with a door on the side at an angle so there was no blast went through.
CB: Yeah. Changing to your experiences in Canada then. How did you feel about that because you had some spare time as well as study time as it were?
TP: Yes. It was very —
CB: So what were the Canadians Like?
TP: Canadians. They were very friendly. Very friendly. I spent a week in Winnipeg on sick leave. I should have gone to Vancouver. I realise that now but I didn’t then. But I spent a week in Winnipeg and met some friends there. Same as in Neepawa where I did my training because I was a Salvation Army at the time. My religion.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And I visited the Salvation Army homes.
CB: Right.
TP: Of the towns I went to and they were — while I was in Moncton the officer there, we actually visited a local prison to get a, yeah, the band went and I went along with them. I didn’t play an instrument. I was on drums at Hemel. But it was it was interesting talking to the prisoners and they were quite receptive to find that the Brits were there and still fighting, you know. Because as I say it was early ‘43 I got out there and the Americans still hadn’t got involved too deeply in the war even then, you know. They were starting to build up but they had to build the aerodromes first for them and it takes time. But it was a good experience meeting the families. You were nearly always invited out to Sunday tea or something like that, you know because at Moncton you were just killing time. You had nothing to do.
CB: It’s in the middle of nowhere.
TP: Well it was on the eastern seaboard or near the eastern seaboard but it was literally the only thing you could do was go to a cafe and eat. Not having the pubs and things like that.
CB: Quite.
TP: Where you could socialise.
CB: Yeah.
TP: It was a different story, you know.
CB: And in the training how did that work? Did you start early in the morning and go —
TP: Oh yeah. Very often out on the prairie, flying. We started at 6 o’clock and it was interesting while I was at Brough of course on the very early flying. First flying.
CB: Before you went out to Canada.
TP: Before I went out to Canada you had to see —
CB: That’s in Yorkshire. Yeah.
TP: Whether you had any ability to fly.
CB: Yes.
TP: And some people didn’t have and they were wiped out then.
CB: Yeah.
TP: After doing the twelve hours training on Tiger Moths they had taken an aerial photograph of the aerodrome and of course it was Blackburn aircraft were using it as well and whilst it had four gun emplacements there was only one that was in use and of course this showed up on the photograph by the fact that there was no pavement to it, no paths in to it. Snow and everything else had accumulated so instead of taking a coach out to dispersal every morning we had to march around these gunsights and march around them and make them look as though as if they were being used.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Although though they had wooden guns on them.
CB: Oh had they?
TP: Yeah. I don’t think it bothered the enemy because I don’t think they considered Brough was a big enough target but —
CB: No.
TP: Although the Barracuda was being developed by Blackburn at the time which seemed to us quite a formidable aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
TP: You know, but, yeah.
CB: Yes. So just going back to Canada. So you’d start at 6 in the morning. You had flying training but what about the grounds?
TP: Oh then you had other lectures and things.
CB: Yeah. So how did that work?
TP: You went into classrooms and you had sort of an hour and a half, two hours on navigation, on astronomy, on meteorology. Morse code. Aldis lamps, you know.
CB: The weather.
TP: It was all varied. Yeah. Yeah. Meteorology was a very big subject. Of course that was a failing in the early days because the forecasting, you know, was very poor. I mean we had plenty to tell us what was coming in but not what’s over there. It’s passed us but did it go that way or that way. So yeah. It was, it was tough. And very often fog would appear totally unexpectedly, you know. You would come back and find your base covered in fog. You know. It was proper.
CB: In the UK you mean?
TP: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Yeah.
CB: So you had a big contrast between the weather in Canada —
TP: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CB: And the weather here. So what was the weather like in Canada?
TP: Well we started our stuff our first flying at Neepawa there was sort of six foot of snow around the place and the wind would not be dead down the runway and so you would start take-off and you would get above the snow which was piled high on either side where the snow ploughs had been down and the wind would suddenly take you one way or the other and you had to be prepared for it and be clear of the snowbanks otherwise you were whipped in to those. Quite, quite a problem. But the, my first experience of tragedy was the fact that my instructor was instructing with another pupil. I was with the officer. The senior. On a test as luck would have it and we went out. Neepawa had a subsidiary field for practicing precautionary landings. Low level approach and dropping in and somebody had busted a Tiger Moth out there [unclear] before and the rescue truck was out there loading it and my instructor, Sergeant Smith had got this other pupil with him and he took over control and did a beat up on the truck that was being moved and unfortunately, when he pulled up, his tail wheel, not skid tail wheel hit the crane and he went in and the aircraft burst in to flames. Luckily the pupil, the student, got out from the back but the instructor died. And that was a shock, you know. You think if an instructor could do it what chance do you stand? You know.
CB: Yeah.
TP: So you just don’t fool around.
CB: No.
TP: And they gave him a military funeral, you know, but his remains and he went off. I presume and they shipped him back to England. I don’t know.
CB: Oh he was a British instructor was he?
TP: Yeah. He’d just, he’d only just got his Wings a short time before. He’d trained in Canada. Got his wings. He was so good they kept him back as an instructor.
CB: He was a —
TP: From an instructor’s course.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But he still was juvenile enough to —
CB: Yeah.
TP: Try something.
CB: Now what do you understand by the word “creamy?”
TP: Eh?
CB: He was a Creamy. Well, apparently they called these people who — I’ve interviewed a couple. The people —
TP: They creamed them off.
CB: They were so good they creamed them off.
TP: Yeah.
CB: Because they were so good at flying and instructing potentially.
TP: Well they could be good at flying but not good at instructing.
CB: Indeed.
TP: They can’t impart the knowledge.
CB: They called them Creamies.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I never heard that expression actually.
CB: And it’s a term that continued until relatively recent time. Might have —
TP: Didn’t heard it.
CB: No. Ok. How long, how many hours did you do over there? Quite a lot before you got your wings.
TP: A few hundred hours.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I should think in total.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Yeah. They extended the courses. This is what, how everything got put back. Even ITW was extended by a couple of months. So as you obviously gained more knowledge. Which was a good thing.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I mean when you think that my cousin within six weeks or so he was on operations.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And he was even acting sergeant to begin with. Crazy. The gunner was still an LAC at one time, you know. Promotion to —
CB: I suppose you have to say they did learn from their mistakes.
TP: Oh yeah.
CB: With these things.
TP: Well they learned but what happened to them when they were POWs. That’s what caused the hassle because if they captured an LAC he went to work. Whereas if he was a sergeant he was slightly different. If he was an officer it was even different again you know.
CB: Yes. Fast forward to OTU. So how did that work? The crewing up. Tell me about the crewing up.
TP: The crewing up was very interesting. As I say we were all in a hangar and everybody looking for everybody else. And I met the bomb aimer first. Very smart looking fella. Little tache. He was a real ladies man in the end apparently because — funny story but he had already picked this Canadian observer or navigator and so we three got together and we were then looking for two gunners and the wireless operator. And they all sort of gelled. You met people and had a chat with them. ‘Where do you come from?’ ‘What are you doing here?’ And the bomb aimer came from London so he found, eventually he found the wireless operator who lived quite near to him in London sort of thing. So they thought they’d got a something that anchored them together.
CB: Yeah. Something in common.
TP: It was quite interesting but yeah, Reg was quite a fella. He had a job writing for many of the chaps in the other crews. He could write a “Dear Rosie,” letter sort of thing. [laughs]
CB: Yes. The antidote to “Dear John. ’
TP: Yeah. [laughs] He did quite well at that apparently, you know.
CB: Yes.
TP: Truly grateful was one of his favourite expressions. [laughs] They’ve all passed away unfortunately.
CB: Yes.
TP: Except his widow is still alive.
CB: But that’s an interesting point in a way. In a more serious vein. One of the people I interviewed talked about his CO giving up flying on operations because the lady who he proposed to said, ‘I’ll only marry you if you give up operations,’ because he’d done a tour already. Because the three previous fiances she’d had had all been killed. So what extent did women — the WAAFs we’re talking about?
TP: Well I was already married.
CB: Yes. But —
TP: I married my childhood sweetheart.
CB: Yes. Quite right.
TP: She’s up there.
CB: Yeah. Smashing. But you saw this. You observed this did you?
TP: Oh I see. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: A sequence of these girls, these WAAFs having relations.
TP: Yeah. Yeah. Well as I say my bomb aimer — Reg. He had. He had a girl. She was, I think she was older than him. [unclear] he used to call her and I think she was something to do with fashion or film or something like that but my wife and I thought, no, he won’t marry her, you know. When we got an invite to his wedding it was a totally different. It was an ATS girl he married.
CB: Oh was it really.
TP: And she was a cracker. She was lovely was Jean.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
TP: Yeah.
CB: You mentioned your own wedding which was in ‘44 when you got back from Canada. Wasn’t it? Was it?
TP: I got back from Canada in ’43.
CB: Oh ’43.
TP: I was home a year.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
TP: And got engaged when I came back.
CB: Oh that was it. Right.
TP: It took a year before I married.
CB: Yeah but —
TP: Her dad was, ‘No. No. You wait my lad.’ [laughs] But she wanted to get married and I said no. I didn’t want to get married at the time.
CB: No.
TP: I said, ‘Well what if something happens to me?’ And she said, ‘Well at least I would have part of that.’
CB: Yeah.
TP: So we got married. Come back from Canada in ‘43. Got married in December ‘44. And all of the crew came to the wedding.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Including the air gunner who went berserk.
CB: Oh he did as well did he? Yeah. He — he’s the one who’d gone.
TP: Yeah. Don’t know what happened to him.
CB: Yeah. Earlier that was.
TP: That was after my wedding.
CB: Oh after the wedding.
TP: Yeah.
CB: Right.
TP: That was January ‘45 when we were finishing at OTU.
CB: Oh I see. That was when he —
TP: On a night cross country.
CB: Yes.
TP: And he just lost it altogether.
CB: Right.
TP: And our worry was he’d start firing guns and draw attention to us which you don’t want when you’re on a diversionary and things like that so you tried to keep as quiet as possible. And you didn’t know whether he was suffering from lack of oxygen because you just couldn’t go to the turret. Couldn’t get into the turret to see him.
CB: So what happened to him?
TP: I’ve no idea.
CB: No.
TP: As I say I passed a note. Didn’t want to let him know. I scribbled a note to the wireless operator, ‘Contact base. We’re returning and tell them briefly why. ’
CB: Yeah.
TP: ‘Problem with rear gunner.’
CB: And what did they do then? The aircraft landed.
TP: Well.
CB: So how were you met? Or did you wait? All get out?
TP: No. We went to dispersal as usual. They put us in dispersal and an ambulance was waiting in dispersal and the ground crew — as I say we had to force open the rear turret in the end because it was iced up as well. Although I’d been flying below, it was wintertime obviously. Weather was pretty chilly. But it gets very cold in the back of a Wellington and he just couldn’t take it. He was still screaming, you know.
CB: Oh. Was he really?
TP: Yeah. He just lost it altogether. Why? We never heard because nobody knew because nobody ever says.
CB: No.
TP: Whether it started with lack of oxygen. It could well have been you see.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But we’ve no means to knowing.
CB: So then the new air gunner comes. Rear gunner comes.
TP: Oh no. He wasn’t the rear gunner.
CB: Oh he wasn’t.
TP: No. Eddie was my rear gunner.
CB: Right.
TP: He was a lorry driver from Worcester.
CB: Oh right.
TP: Eddie was — he was great fun he was.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But he — you know. He was the real rear gunner. It was the mid-upper gunner who was in the rear gun, rear turret and didn’t like it.
CB: So then you go to the Heavy Conversion Unit at North Luffenham. 1653. That’s when you get the flight engineer.
TP: Yeah.
CB: How did he come aboard?
TP: Well they just —
CB: Did you select him or he was allocated or what?
TP: Well I think from memory all of us crews went into the hangar.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And there was probably ten crews went on the course — conversion. And there were ten flight engineers lined up.
CB: Literally.
TP: And then it was take your pick sort of thing.
CB: So you did your selection did you?
TP: I think we did as a team. Yeah.
CB: You personally or the whole team came over.
TP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. And what was he like?
TP: He was a good lad. He was a butcher from Devizes.
CB: Oh.
TP: Married but no children. And, yes, he was he was very pleasant but as I say he’d been, he’d been through pilot training. Got his pilots wings and then they said sorry there are no more vacancies for pilots. You’ve got a choice. You can be a glider pilot for troop carrying which is a one way ticket.
CB: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah.
TP: Or you can be a flight engineer.
CB: Yeah. So in that circumstance did he keep his flying — his pilot’s wings?
TP: Oh he had his pilot’s wings.
CB: Yes. Because after the war I interviewed somebody — after the war they took them away and you wore the brevet of your specialty.
TP: Oh. I don’t know.
CB: No. But anyway in the war. Yeah.
TP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So there were two pilots on the Lancaster.
TP: Yeah. In effect. Yeah.
CB: In effect.
TP: Yeah. Yeah. Well not on every one but you know —
CB: No. No. No. No.
TP: Yeah.
CB: I mean in your circumstance.
TP: But when I went to 90 squadron. He was a flight engineer. He wasn’t a pilot.
CB: Of course. No. Absolutely.
TP: He was a flight engineer.
CB: Yeah. Can I just go on to another point you mentioned on a previous occasion the Stabilised Auto Bomb Sight. Could you explain what that was and how it was different from the one you had before.
TP: Well, this was, this was the bomb sight used by 617.
CB: Right.
TP: It was much easier than the Norton which had, I think, fifty odd adjustments to make it before it was set but the SABS had, instead of the ordinary, the old Mark IX just had wires to track down and you set the thing up and got the pilot to, ‘Left. Left,’ or, ‘Right. Right,’ or, ‘Steady. ’ And if he said, ‘Steady,’ Eddie would say, ‘Yeah. What do you want?’ [laughs] You know, the SABS had like a glass prism with a lighted sword and the cross point of the hilt was for the target and you tracked, tracked it down. Much shorter than the long strings but the sword looked as if it was on the ground. It was in this glass prism but it was where it was projected. It looked like it was travelling on the ground so you could —
CB: So were all the Lancasters being refitted with that?
TP: They were being refitted with them but they only had them on the specialist units at the time.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And they used them — I don’t know whether you saw the article there, there was an article in Flight or Aeroplane?]. You can probably still read it now where after the war —
CB: Yeah.
TP: Lancs went over to America and 15 Squadron was amongst them but we got the proverbial brick in a bucket whereas the Americans were half a mile away.
CB: Even though they claimed to be precision bombers.
TP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: With the benefit of daylight.
TP: Yeah.
CB: We’ve effectively come to the point where you got to the squadron just as the war finished. So you didn’t get in any operations.
TP: No operations at all.
CB: Right.
TP: No.
CB: So the war finished. Then what?
TP: Well —
CB: We’re talking about 8th of May 1945.
TP: Yeah.
CB: The war ends.
TP: And in June I was in a squadron.
CB: Yeah.
TP: 90 squadron. I’d been home on leave. I’d had a telegram — report to Tuddenham and I naturally thought that’s the whole crew.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I get to Tuddenham and I find I’m on my own.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And —
CB: Why was that?
TP: And I was introduced, introduced to a completely new crew.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Who’d had an Australian skipper and he’d been subbed off back home. Taken off of flying as all Commonwealth aircrew were. So I took over the whole crew. Didn’t know a soul. Took a little while to get used to them of course, you know. Amongst the crew one of the guys was a flying officer already. And that’s how I think the air force changed their attitude to the fact that you can’t have captains of aircraft with lower rank than members of their crew.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But it didn’t affect 90 Squadron. They still hadn’t thought of that. I was a flight sergeant and he was a flying officer. I think he was a bomb aimer. I’m not too sure. Could have been the navigator but the rest were sergeants. They’d done, I think they’d done six food drops or something like that. They hadn’t done anything serious —
CB: This was Operation Manna.
TP: Operation yeah. Because they’d only been on the squadron for a few weeks anyway.
CB: Right.
TP: They were only that little distance ahead but sufficient to have got —
CB: Ahead of you.
TP: Yeah. And it was, we did the Kiel operation. Operation Post Mortem where we were checking the radar. And I think I did one or two Baedekers taking ground staff over Germany when the CO said, ‘I’ve got a brother at Mildenhall. Would you swap with him?’ And [laughs] you know I mean —
CB: With the whole crew.
TP: The whole crew. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So he moved his whole plane across.
TP: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: In exchange for yours.
TP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
TP: As I say I went over there and the CO was McFarlane. He’s still alive I think but he’s got dementia problems in Australia.
CB: Right.
TP: He was surprised to see that I was only a flight sergeant because as he said, ‘All the captains of our aircraft are officers. ’ You know. ‘We don’t have non-commissioned officers. ’ So that’s how I got commissioned. Completely out of the blue but that’s the way it went.
CB: As a pilot officer.
TP: You did as you were told.
CB: Of course.
TP: You went as you were told.
CB: Yeah.
TP: You had no say in it.
CB: No.
TP: You very often thought that there was a little man manipulating. Oh somebody lives in London so we’ll send him to Glasgow. Or that Scot can go down to Cornwall.
CB: Yes.
TP: It happened you know.
CB: It happened to my father. So you became to be a flying officer. A pilot officer. But it didn’t last.
TP: No. I got back to — after a week I went to Simpsons and you know and got my, got kitted out and got told, ‘You’re incorrectly dressed. You’re a flying officer. ’ [laughs] You know.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Crazy.
CB: Had to have it all done.
TP: Yeah.
CB: So what did you do from then on?
TP: Well. I was going to be a school teacher.
CB: No. No. Excuse me just a mo. In the RAF.
TP: Oh in the RAF.
CB: ‘Cause we hadn’t got to —
TP: Yeah.
CB: So you became a flying officer.
TP: Became a flying officer.
CB: You keep flying? Doing what?
TP: I kept flying on Lancasters — doing — went to Italy to bring British troops home.
CB: Yeah.
TP: We did several Baedekers down the Ruhr.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Several — a few other post mortems.
CB: Can we just describe Baedekers? So Baedeker is essentially picking up on the German tour guides.
TP: Well it was called Baedecker but it was you did a trip to the Ruhr.
CB: Yeah.
TP: You went, you know, down to Essen, Cologne, Dortmund. Looked at the canals and things like that. All at two thousand or so and so feet in broad daylight and there were swarms of you, you know and it must have —
CB: Frightened them.
TP: Let the Germans know.
CB: Yeah.
TP: That there was an air force above them.
CB: Yeah. And this was what it had been.
TP: It was more a political gesture although it was sold as showing the ground staff.
CB: What had happened?
TP: What it was. And I had one of the first Lancasters converted to take female passengers.
CB: Right.
TP: It had a curtain around the elsan. [laughs]
CB: [laughs] Right.
TP: But you didn’t take air gunners. I think all we had then was navigator, a flight engineer, wireless op and engineer. Yeah. Navigator. Flight engineer. Not even a bomb aimer. No.
CB: No.
TP: Because you weren’t going to be dropping anything [laughs] But —
CB: And they sat in those stations and then rotated did they?
TP: They sat. Yeah. One would be in the nose in the front turret. One would be in the mid-upper turret, one in the rear. Of course you didn’t have any extra windows so —
CB: No.
TP: They had to be either in the cockpit or in the positions to see. And —
CB: How many people did you take at a time?
TP: Three or five. It wasn’t very many.
CB: No.
TP: Surprisingly, you know. I thought we would take more people. It’s obviously so as to let them have a good look.
CB: But also the ulterior motive was —
TP: Yeah.
CB: Making Germans aware of what was going on.
TP: Aware. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
TP: That’s all it was done for.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And we did over the dams and that’s another thing. On the dams raid, you know, Gibson came out to Canada in ‘43.
CB: Oh you saw him.
TP: Gave us a lecture and told us all about it. But he couldn’t explain or he wouldn’t explain why there was no follow-up. It needn’t have been low level things like he did. I mean it could have been high level stuff with delayed action bombs. I mean they let them rebuild that. It wasn’t in full use for several years because it wouldn’t have the pressure until it had all settled.
CB: Oh.
TP: But it would have delayed the building.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Just with one or two bombs every week or so.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
TP: I’m sure they thought of it but whether they were in hand with Krupps to say we won’t do any [laughs]
CB: Well they wanted — yeah.
TP: After the war you wanted [back?] production and so — yeah. It’s weird isn’t it? When you think of it.
CB: So —
TP: It would have been the- easiest thing in the world.
CB: Yeah. Absolutely. Where — so after doing a bit of that when did you actually leave?
TP: I think it was November or December.
CB: Forty — ?
TP: ‘46
CB: ‘46. Ok. Right. So what did you?
TP: They didn’t release, you see they learned their lesson from the First World War.
CB: Right.
TP: When they released everybody too soon and altogether. It swamped the country. Couldn’t find jobs. We had a lot of problems. And I think that they thought trickle it out.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But of course most of us as youngsters had gone virtually straight from school so we had no job to go back to or it was a very junior job which wouldn’t have been sufficient after four or five years in the forces, you know.
CB: So what did you do?
TP: Well as I say I got accepted — two things. I first of all got accepted by BEA for training as an airline pilot. But after discussions with my wife [laughs] in those days Paris would have been an overnight stop. And with the dolly birds as usherettes on the aeroplanes she said, ‘No way am I going to let you,’ [laughs] which I suppose made sense you know.
CB: Right.
TP: So I gave up that with BEA. But I did carry on for the strategic and there was a teaching college at [Ashridge?] or there was in those days but you couldn’t get there until you’d been selected for a college anywhere in the country and eventually, after eighteen months, I got a college up in Newcastle upon Tyne. Well, how could I go up there and have a home when I’d got a family in Hemel? No way could we all move up there.
CB: No.
TP: So then you could apply to go to Ashridge but then there was a three year waiting list at [Ashridge]. It was just impossible. So I’d done six months as a bus conductor while I was waiting. And a fellow in Hemel who ran a confectionary shop — I went in and helped him in the shop and made his ice creams and things like that. Then the new town developed and I went up. I was the first male to be employed in a new town factory. I went into engineering. I hadn’t had any engineering experience but I went in as a storekeeper originally but they realised I got a bit more intelligence than what most of the people working for them had and so I ended up I was there eleven years. I became their office manager and ran the place and then I got poached by a firm in London and joined them. Part of the [Ager?] group. And —
CB: What were you doing there?
TP: Machine tools. They were selling second hand but buying new machines from the continent and selling them to distributors in England and that’s when I came in. And I was made a director and we were well away and then after twenty two years or more of that I decided it was time to quit. I was asked to look after the interests of one of the companies for a couple of years in Spain to see what they could do. And so I virtually went into retirement and just worked from home with this guy in Spain. But I don’t regret it, you know. It was a —
CB: At what age did you retire?
TP: I think it was ’86 so I would have been —
CB: So - but your full time work when you gave up working as a director.
TP: Oh when I gave up full time work was — sixty one, about ‘83 or something like that. 1983.
CB: How old were you then?
TP: I was sixty.
CB: Sixty.
TP: Roughly. Because I was born in ’25.
CB: Yeah.
TP: So there you go. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I was fifty eight. But —and I spent the last few years helping this guy organise in Spain.
CB: What was he doing?
TP: Selling machine tools.
CB: Oh he was. In Spain.
TP: No. In England.
CB: Oh in England.
TP: You know, anywhere. I sold a few in Europe and beyond and made a comfortable living.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I wasn’t pushed. Didn’t want the hassle.
CB: No.
TP: And I certainly couldn’t bear it today with everybody got the mobile phones and GPS, you know.
CB: Yeah. Nightmare.
TP: Yeah. I ran — when I was working for the firm in London and was a director I also ran their service department.
CB: Oh yeah.
TP: Had five or six service engineers you’ve got to keep tabs on all the while. Well it’s easier now than what it was then of course but in those days if you know send an engineer into Wales and they’d alter all the signposts around and that [laughs] They didn’t want the English in.
CB: No. No. Right. What would you say was the most memorable experience you had in the war?
TP: First solo. That is something which — you’re free.
CB: Yeah.
TP: You’re on your own.
CB: Achievement.
TP: Achievement. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: How many hours? Do you remember?
TP: What?
CB: How many hours had you done to get to solo?
TP: Ten or eleven. Something like that. You only had twelve hours. About that but if you went solo you got extra time EFTS.
CB: Right.
TP: They took that into consideration. But I still remember the guy — he was the pilot of Blackburn Botha.
CB: Yes.
TP: That took me for my flying test.
CB: Oh was it?
TP: And he was a big bloke. Oh he must have been about eighteen stone.
CB: In a Tiger Moth.
TP: In a Tiger Moth.
CB: Crikey.
TP: ‘Don’t forget laddie. Without me being there you’re going to go up. ’
CB: Oh yes. On your own.
TP: I mean Brough airfield had got a — it was sort of almost below sea level.
CB: Oh right.
TP: They’ve got a dyke all the way around it. On the estuary. And you’ve got to clear. So with him in the front you cleared it but without him in the front you were —
CB: Amazing.
TP: You were up to a thousand feet before you reached the front perimeter.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Well Tom it’s been really interesting. Thank you very much indeed.
TP: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Thomas Peter Payne. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-22
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APayneTP160422
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:35:11 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Tom joined the Air Training Corps as a deferred service airman even though he was under-age. In April 1942 he received his call up papers to report to the Air Crew Reception Centre at St John’s Wood before being posted to Ludlow. He then went to the Initial Training Wing in Torquay. Tom was posted to No. 4 Elementary Flying Training School at RAF Brough on Tiger Moths, and RAF Heaton Park in Manchester. Tom then went to Moncton, Canada, and the Neepawa Elementary Flying Training School, followed by a Service Flying Training School at Swift Current on Oxfords. Guy Gibson gave a lecture about the Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943). After being hospitalised with scarlet fever, Tom eventually returned to the UK.
Harrogate and refresher training in Perth followed. Tom was posted to No. 3 Lancaster Finishing School at RAF Feltwell where two B-17 crashed. He went to RAF Kidlington and, after finishing at the Advanced Flying Unit, Tom was posted to 26 Operational Training Unit at RAF Wing to fly Wellingtons where he crewed up. In March 1945 he was posted to RAF North Luffenham flying Lancasters. Tom then had to report to 90 Squadron at RAF RAF Tuddenham and joined a different crew. He undertook a few Cooks’ tours for ground crew to the Ruhr, and went to 15 Squadron at RAF Mildenhall where he became flying officer. He brought back some British troops from Italy and did Operation Post Mortem, including a German radar at Kiel. With a few hundred aircraft, there was a significant danger of collision.
Tom finished at an instructors’ flying course at RAF Lulsgate Bottom and was demobilised at the end of 1946.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1943
1944
1945
1946
1942-04
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Devon
England--Manchester
England--Norfolk
England--Rutland
England--Suffolk
Germany
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Italy
15 Squadron
1653 HCU
26 OTU
90 Squadron
aircrew
B-17
Cook’s tour
crash
crewing up
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Flying Training School
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
love and romance
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
promotion
RAF Brough
RAF Feltwell
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Mildenhall
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Torquay
RAF Tuddenham
sanitation
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/629/8899/APooreA151020.1.mp3
6ee88aba2e23d68c594be301c1c8b80d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/629/8899/PPooreA1501.2.jpg
de9335da75f878d8d7843c869ab47a8c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Poore, Arthur
A Poore
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Poore, A
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Arthur Poore DFC (1920 - 2016, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-10-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: Hello, I’m Arthur Poore, I was born in 1920, so that when war started in 19, whenever it was, I was nineteen years of age. I was, of course, extraordinary lucky in surviving everything. To survive the war is, of course, a matter of luck, I had, I had luck in spades. I volunteered for the Air Force because I didn’t want to go into the Army and er, went on a, in those days, the pre-war bombers, the second pilot did a navigation, so I had to go on a navigation course up in Cheshire, didn’t know there was a war on. And as the Air Force was expanding, I, having finished my six weeks course in the middle of Cheshire, they were expanding this School of Navigation, and I was one of the staff pilots. So, for the next two years, I was flying from mid Cheshire across to Llandudno and up to the Isle of Man and back, didn’t know there was a war on, so it was all a question of luck. Then I, I volunteered actually, I, I joined one of the main force bomber squadrons when it was 6 Squadron, and the Dambuster Squadron, 617 Squadron. Guy Gibson was killed, and they had a fairly disastrous raid on Germany, on the Dortmund-Ems Canal, lost a lot of crews, and I, of course, was a much more experienced in flying hours than my contempories, so I joined 617 Squadron. Managed to, managed to survive that, I did forty-five trips altogether, so that was just a question of luck. After Guy Gibson was flight command, was squadron commander, we had Wing Commander Cheshire as Squadron Commander. He was a very charismatic character, he had a good dog called Simon, I always remember. We, if we weren’t flying on ops, we’d be, we’d all be down in the officers mess drinking beer, and he’d be upstairs writing letters of consolation to the lost ones, and he had a dog called Simon, and one day we were down in the mess, drinking, and he came down, to our surprise, and had a drink with us. And he said, ‘Now, Simon’s a very clever dog’. And we said, ‘Oh, why is that?’ And he said, ‘I’ll show you’. And Wing Commander Cheshire said to Simon the dog, ‘Simon, what will you do if we lose the war?’ And Simon laid down on his side and closed his eyes and pretended to be dead. And he said, ‘Simon, what would you do when we win the war?’ and Simon got up and danced on his hind legs. So that, that was his little trick. Wing Commander Cheshire was a remarkable man.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command, I’d like to thank Arthur Poore, Squadron Leader, 617 Squadron, for his recording on the date of 20th October, 2015, at 12 o’clock. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Arthur Poore
Creator
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Mick Jeffery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-20
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APooreA151020, PPooreA1501
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:05:06 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur joined the Royal Air Force at the age of nineteen when war started in 1939. Arthur completed a navigation course, which lasted six weeks. When the School of Navigation in Cheshire was expanded, Arthur became staff pilot, flying from mid Cheshire across to Llandudno and then up to the Isle of Man. Arthur joined 6 Squadron and then 617 Squadron after the death of Guy Gibson and the operation to the Dortmund-Ems Canal. He completed forty-five operations. Arthur tells the story of Wing Commander Leonard Cheshire and his dog called Simon.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cheshire
Germany
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
617 Squadron
aircrew
animal
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
navigator
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/645/8915/PStevensonPD1601.1.jpg
6af72eacae79a4d18db921853d4c668d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/645/8915/AStevensonP160817.2.mp3
6327e4703cdd17ca26c2141fdf7b1415
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stevenson, Peter
Peter Desmond Stevenson
P D Stevenson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Stevenson, PD
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Peter Stevenson (b. 1923) and his memoir. He grew up in Lincolnshire and while he was working towards an engineering apprenticeship he rose through the ranks to become a Warrant Officer in the Air Training Corps.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Peter Stevenson and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HD: This is Helen Durham on the 17th of August 2016. Here for the International Bomber Command Centre and I’m interviewing Mr Peter Stevenson who was part of ground crew during the years of Bomber Command. Peter -
PDS: Ok.
HD: Thank you ever so much for allowing us to come and interview. I wonder could you just start off by telling me what sort of thing you did before the war? How you started?
PDS: Well the thing I want to stress right from the very beginning is that I was among the people who say, people say, they also served who only stood and waited. I grew up in Grantham at a time when Grantham was very much an RAF town. There were, in addition to the 21 Training Group based on RAF Spitalgate there was also, later on, number 5 Group headquarters down at St Vincent’s and the majority of my school friends were sons of serving officers. The Grantham School collected a fair number of people including, rather surprisingly people whose fathers were serving at Cranwell as well as Grantham. Now, Grantham was one of the three stations that survived the downsizing after the First World War. You’ve got Cranwell of course as the, as the RAF college but in addition to that there were two squad, two stations RAF Digby and RAF Spitalgate. There are various ways of spelling that. It’s either Spittle or alternatively S P I T A L when people were feeling a bit more respectable towards it. Now, the three stations were of course very much in competition with each other and we got to know quite a lot of the people there. As I say my two friends were always up there and we learned an awful lot about the, what was going on at that time. This was of course a time when the youth of Britain was very, very much encouraged to become air minded and one of the things that emerged just after the First World War was an organisation called The Air League of the British Empire. Now, this not only promoted air mindedness in youth and the general population but it also sponsored things like RAF open days at the various stations and they also did a lot to sponsor the prestige activities which were going on at that time. These were either the height records, the speed records or the distance records or whatever. Now, in Lincolnshire of course we went very much in the distance records and I can remember quite a lot of the activities where aircraft were produced specifically for gaining the world distance records and the RAF were justifying, if you like, the tax payers money by spending a lot of time making Britain first in whichever activity it happened to be. Now, the Air League of the British Empire around about 1935 was when they began to realise that war was more or less inevitable. They started a junior section which I joined and received all the information what was going on. Then, which was rather significant, my King’s School at Grantham, it had an OTC. Now in those days OTC was a little bit elite. It meant officer’s training school er Officer’s Training School and so the OTC, it tended to produce or promote leadership and right from the very beginning even when you were twelve years old whenever you learned anything the first thing you had to do was to learn how to teach that. So inevitably by the time you were about fifteen or sixteen you became fairly confident at facing up to all sorts of people. This helped very much because my father, who was sales director of the big Ford dealers in the, in the Lincolnshire area had a lot of contacts. One of the most significant was Sir Arthur Longmore. Now, Sir Arthur Longmore, a bit of a controversial figure because he was number three commandant at Cranwell around about 1923/24 time. He went to become the AOC of the Middle East and when it was a case of finding a scapegoat for the loss of Greece and the Balkans during the, the Nazi invasion down there in the early years of the war when a head had to fall they decided that Sir Arthur had to be the person who got the chop. He came back to Grantham but took a significant part in the formation of the Grantham squadron of the Air Defence Cadet Corps so we got to know him pretty well and through him we gained entry or entrée if you like in to places like the 5 Group headquarters and Spitalgate and so on. Now, one of the other things about this OTC, Officer’s Training Corps was the fact they trained you up to what was called the Certificate A Standard which was the first, if you like it was the 11+ for getting in to Sandhurst. Now, around about 1935 time the RAF rather objected to the war department in general that here were the, here was the army making sure that the majority of the likely lads who were coming up were well injected with khaki in to their blood and they wanted a slice. So what happened was formed an organisation which you can still find on the internet, if you look it up, which was called the Public Schools Air Cadet Wing. Now, this was a fairly, again a fairly elite organisation. There were only about two hundred and fifty of us and they were composed of people who were in the university air squadrons and also a certain number of selected grammar schools across the country. We were allocated eight places on this and of course there was the inevitable selection board to which one appeared in your best and you were interviewed. The other seven went in, all very fit and looking air crew right away and you could tell by the look on their face they were accepted. Then I walked in complete with glasses so there was dead silence, and they said, ‘This is for air crew.’ So I said, ‘Excuse me gentleman but,’ I said, ‘We are now entering a very technical stage of the war. You have accepted seven air crew. You need somebody to keep them in the air.’ I think the sheer effrontery of this caused them to stop dead. They sort of looked at each other, as a grin all over their faces. ‘Alright you’re in.’ Well it was absolutely marvellous because the RAF wherever there was a local, you know they were near to Oundle and some of these other places, there were certainly RAF stations nearby but of course at Grantham we were lucky because we’d got Spitalgate at the top of the hill. What they spent on us I do not know but it must have been by today’s standards millions. They took us everywhere. They opened the stations, we went in, we flew with them, we went with exercises. Although we were khaki clad we were treated as being part of the RAF right from the beginning even though we were only fifteen, sixteen and the net result was of course that the majority of us were absolutely dead set for going into the RAF and one thing that I have to mention about the, the Public Schools Air Cadet Wing was the wonderful camp that they had in July 1939 just before the thing started where we went down to this Selsey Bill which was next door to RAF Tangmere and they took us everywhere. They showed us everything from Bomber Command to Fighter Command to Coastal Command to the Fleet Air Arm and so on and this really was an absolutely marvellous occasion and I can still remember now the final dinner in this huge mess tent that we went in to. We were told to appear in best uniforms and so on. When we were, we moved in our jaws dropped because this thing, this, after being in our mess tent for the week this thing had been converted into an officer’s mess and it was white linen and RAF personnel doing the serving and we stood and then the top brass came in and it really was. There was the head of Bomber Command, there was the head of Fighter Command, there was the head of Coastal Command, Fleet Air Arm and the top table was resplendent including one civilian who we knew by sight and as soon as we took one look at him we sort of looked at each other, ‘Hello. What’s all this about?’ and this was a bloke called Duff Cooper. Now Duff Cooper was one of Churchill’s war mongers, if you like and he was, he had for years been absolutely dead set against the disarmament and so on and he was very largely responsible for the political drive behind making sure that the RAF was equipped as far as possible with new breeds of fighters and so on and of course at that time with, shall we say, the Chamberlain mentality about there was this hope that if we only ignored him far enough, long enough he would probably go away which of course he didn’t and Duff Cooper stood up and said, ‘Right gentleman,’ he said, ‘Within one month we shall be at war.’ There was a sort of, ‘Ahhh,’ like that but he was dead right and so what happened was that I was in this Public Schools Air Cadet Wing. Now, in the meantime sir Arthur Longmore with his friends up in the league of the Air League of the British Empire had caused the formation of the Grantham squadron of the air training er the Air Defence Cadet Corps. When they were looking round for a commanding officer, let me go back a fraction. I said I wanted to go there. My father put his foot down. He said, ‘Look. You’re coming up for your matric examinations, you’re already in the OTC. You’re already in the Public Schools Air Cadet Wing you have not any time for any further organisation.’ So I said, ‘I still want to go.’ He said, ‘Alright, you can go under one condition. That I come with you just to make sure you don’t commit yourself.’ ‘Ok.’ So we turn up and we were addressed by Chamier who was the head of the Air Defence Cadet Corps at that time and all the various people including Sir Arthur Longmore and it came a question. Yes, the mayor of Grantham agreed that the council would, would submit a budget for the, because it was all privately run at that time, the RAF hadn’t actually taken it over and so yes it was agreed that we would form a squadron of the Air Defence Cadet Corps. Then the next question was who was the, to be the commanding officer. Now, my father, in the First World War, he got a blighty one in 1915. When he came back he spent most of the war up at the Ripon Reserve Training Centre which was one of the biggest training organisations for people for the First World War and he eventually ended up as aide de camp to the commanding officer up there so he had quite a lot of administrative experience if you like and so what happened was when it came to the question of the, of the commanding officer Sir Arthur Longmore just pointed straight at my father and said, ‘There is your commanding officer,’ you see. My father’s jaw dropped and there was a certain amount of hear hearing going on and of course we walked out with my father as the new commanding officer of the Grantham squadron of the of the Air Defence Cadet Corps and me not allowed to join. Now, of course when war was declared I was sixteen. There was a possibility that I might go onto the sixth form but things were so unstable at that time that in the majority of cases unless you were, what shall we say, top flight 1-1 students obviously destined for university the general tendency was look we’re in it we might just as well sort of adopt a career strategy and so what happened was I left school, started an engineering apprenticeship which was to last five years as it worked out but of course I never expected to finish that because at the age of eighteen I would be called up anyway to go in to it. At the same time you had to go to technical college and so on to get your, your technical qualifications behind that. By the time I was eighteen I had passed the point of no return. In other words having reached that level I went before various selection boards who said you must stay out to get the necessary Institute of Mechanical Engineers qualifications to go straight in and I was accepted provisionally for a commission in the technical branch of the RAF. So I was sort of hell bent for that particular line expecting to go into the RAF around about ‘43/44 time when I qualified but in the meantime of course we had to be in part of of pre-service organisation. In my case of course it was the Air Defence Cadet Corps and then from 1941 this became the Air Training Corps and because my father was very, very strict about these things whenever we got into uniform we were, he would not allow us to leave the house together. We always had to go separately. We went off to the headquarters and I saluted him very carefully whenever I came, came across him because of course I was saluting the King’s Commission in those days and he said straightway to all the flight commanders, he said, ‘Look. With his experience he probably knows a damned sight more about the RAF and these things than, than you do, but,’ he said, ‘I am not actually accepting any recommendations of promotion until you’re all quite satisfied that he is worthy of promotion. I am not going to have any favouritism in my squadron.’ So I ended up going into, going into the, in to the Air Defence Cadet Corps as a humble cadet and during the war, because I was, if you like, one of the few only cadets who actually stayed in the Air Training Corps for the whole of the war period I rose up from being cadet, corporal, sergeant, flight sergeant and eventually became the second warrant officer for the Grantham squadron and I have still my warrant over in a file here which could be done to prove this. Now, during this time of course we went to an awful lot of specialist courses at various places down at places like Cardington and, and so on and it was also interesting because we had the first warrant officer’s course at Cardington and there were seventeen, eighteen of us I think, all ATC warrant officers and I was in that. That was the first, the first course there. Now, during the war, of course we were essentially civilians during the daytime but in addition to that and apart from the fact that we were probably doing either a whole day’s release or three nights at night school or technical college then of course we had also to be in pre-service training which I was already in as being in the ATC. First of all we were attached to RAF, RAF Spitalgate, Grantham which of course was a training station. By that time it was 12 PAFU Pilot Advanced Flying Training Unit which were training night fighter pilots. But of course as things built up we had a separate wing down at, separate flight down at Colsterworth and it was agreed that we would leave Spitalgate as being the nearest station to the Colsterworth flight and then we would, we ourselves be attached to Bomber Command stations so our first station of contact was RAF Bottesford which was the home of 207 squadron. 207 squadron was noted as being the first squadron to receive, when it was formed or reformed ‘cause 207 that number two hundred indicates that it was originally a Royal Naval Air Service station or squadron in the First World War so 207 was reformed at Cranwell and immediately came down to Bottesford which had only just recently been commissioned as a station and they were the first squadron to receive these Avro Manchesters. Well, of course, anybody who knows anything about the Manchester, if you say, ‘I flew in a Manchester,’ they’d look at you as much as to say, ‘Oh how did you escape,’ [laughs] because of course it was a wonderful aircraft so far as an air frame was concerned but it had these two huge horrible Vulture engines which were virtually a couple of V, V12 engines, one on top of the other which was put in to service before it was properly trained, properly tested. The net result was that these engines would suddenly fail and if it failed on one engine that was it and it came, it would come in and crash and that would be the end of it. Anyway, it was interesting at Bottesford because then it was just at the point when the RAF were beginning to get some very interesting personnel there. There was a certain Joe McCarthy who was at Bottesford at the time and he was already a bit of a name for himself because if there was one thing that Joe liked was low flying and as soon as the blitzes that were being planned for the Tirpitz and the Gneisenau and the other, the other targets this was before, if you like, the RAF had settled down in to, in to an area bombing technique. This was still at the period when there were specific targets. Now, when McCarthy decided that low flying was needed he often used to go down the fens where he could fly along and go around the trees rather than over them and it was quite normal for us to be going along at something in the region of a hundred and fifty, a hundred and eighty miles an hour about fifty feet above the ground which was quite exciting and I can remember one particular time when we were buzzing across and I was, as navigation instructor for the squadron had got a group of ATC cadets in various places and I was talking to them through the intercom. I’d got a couple of them with me up in the top turret of this, of this Lancaster and there was a couple down at the back end and others sort of in various disposal because they never worried about, I mean we never bothered about parachutes because, you know, we never got high enough to use them [laughs] and I can remember panning along and of course the usual thing we did was we kept because we knew the countryside fairly well we would sort of be brash enough to say, ‘Upper gunner to captain.’ ‘Yeah, go ahead’ captain er ‘go ahead gunner.’ ‘HT cables five miles ahead.’ ‘Thank you.’ Not a change in height. Not a change in speed. ‘Top gunner. One mile ahead.’ ‘Thank you.’ Not a change in speed. Not a change in height. And one of the others would say, ‘HT cables in sight.’ ‘Thank you.’ Not a change. Then all of a sudden an American voice said, ‘Alright boys. Shall we go over them or shall we go under them?’ And of course there was absolute dead silence and he said, ‘I take it that means under them,’ and we did [laughs] which was rather exciting. And of course another thing he used to love to do on a Sunday morning when “Dad’s Army” was being marched along with Mainwaring in front one thing about a Lancaster which you don’t really get these days is if you could get a Lancaster down to about fifty feet no sound comes forward. The net result is that you can be going along and he suddenly would go like this and we got ourselves over a typical fenland road with ditches each side of it and there in front was “Dad’s Army” marching along, goes pfffft straight over the top of them. Of course it was very interesting because when you turned around the only person who was still on the road was Captain Mainwaring. All the rest, all the rest of them [laughs]. Oh they were great days. Anyway, the, as I say the Bottesford period was a period when the RAF was still experimenting with low level flight, low level flying, specific targets and so on. What happened was that the amount of damage that was being done because at that time Bottesford was still a grass airfield that they came to the conclusion that the airfield, as a grass airfield was just about worn out. They just couldn’t keep the grass together especially in the winter time and they were definitely getting worried that they would not get airborne with their, with their bomb loads on so they decided to close Bottesford. 207 was first of all sent off to RAF Langar and then eventually it went up to RAF Spilsby and today if you go up you will find that the 207 squadron veterans and their archive and everything are all held up at the Spilsby airfield. Well, Spilsby, but East Kirkby, in the, in the headquarters there so what happened was that we hadn’t got a, we hadn’t got a, an attachment so I think my father managed to twist some arms up at 5 Group headquarters and the next thing is we were attached to 106 squadron at Syerston. Now, Syerston was perhaps the most westerly of the 5 Group airfields and by that time the RAF, the Bomber Command 5 Group in particular had settled down to grim warfare. No more specialist targets. No more panacea targets as Harris used to call them. No. This was, this was Harris warfare in full and it was an entirely different operation. Now, we had got used to, at Bottesford we’d got used to the fact that we would be working on a planes helping to clear up, loading incendiaries and all that sort of thing and we had sort of reached the point where we were in spite of that fact that we were only teenagers basically we were accepting the fact that the bloke we were talking to yesterday afternoon was no longer there and we also, I mean I used to find for example that as a leading NCO I used to bring my, ‘cause they used to collect us from, from Grantham those of us that could get away on a Saturday morning working five day week because the employers realised that we were, that our, what we were doing was valuable they would let us go off. We would be collected, taken to an RAF station. Could be Bottesford, could be Syerston or wherever. As soon as we entered there we were immediately shunted off to the security section and the security officer would say, ‘No communication with the outside whatsoever. Big op tonight. We mustn’t let any loose talk,’ and so we would be fixed in the station or we would go and we’d load incendiaries and we would generally go, and of course the next morning when the aircraft came back then I would collect from our nissen hut, we had a specific nissen hut there, I would collect my, because we marched everywhere. Nowadays, they just walk but we marched everywhere and I would be intercepted by one of the flight sergeants, RAF flight sergeants who said, ‘Keep away from that one. We haven’t had the chance to hose it out yet.’ And, oh yes there were some because they always the tail end gunner out and some of those tail end gunners oh I tell you, it was mess, it really was. So we grew up very rapidly. When we got to Syerston we did find that the RAF frame of mind if you like had changed over from this Harris expression panacea targets to total obliteration and it was grim and as I say we grew up very quickly. So we carried on and you could more or less say that three weekends out of four we were at one station or the another whether it was Bottesford or whether it was Syerston and so on. Well, I dropped a name, Joe McCarthy and quite a lot of the people who were with him of course were head hunted by you know who. By the time we got to Syerston who was the commanding officer there? You know who. Now people are divided. There’s ten percent of the RAF thought that Guy was absolutely marvellous and the other ten percent were not at all sure because -
HD: So he was the commanding officer at -
PDS: Oh Guy Gibson. Yes.
HD: Guy Gibson.
PDS: He was, he was a bighead and he had all sorts of funny ideas because he’d been an ex between wars officer where, at a time social standing was very very important and it was only towards the end of the war would Guy Gibson allow himself to be photographed with his sergeant air crew. Oh no. No. He would separate them out.
HD: So he was quite separate.
PDS: He would only appear in a photograph. If you look at Guy -
HD: Yeah.
PDS: In some of the early periods of the war you don’t see an NCO anywhere there. All commissioned. Guy did not approve of the ATC. He thought we were just a boys club and want keeping clear of the real war so we in general kept clear of him and but for all that the Syerston period was an important period I think for the majority of the young men who went into the RAF from the Grantham squadron and a lot of them sort of ended the war feeling that there but by the grace of God so on and I think what happens is you do tend to find as happens in all branches of all services that survivors begin to get a bit of a guilt complex. Why was I allowed to survive? And the fact that when I eventually got the necessary qualifications for going into the RAF they said well to be perfectly honest we’re so near the end of the war and the vast reconstruction that we’re going to have to do not only in this country but of course particularly in Europe and elsewhere. In view of the fact that I was working on construction machinery and I was, by that time a section leader and design draughtsman and I was producing equipment which gave me no end of trouble actually because I can start looking up on the internet and there is some enthusiast in New Zealand or Australia, particularly Australia who is keeping one of my graders going as being an historical piece and I’m going, ‘No. That was mine. I designed that.’
HD: So what sort of things did you design then?
PDS: Pardon?
HD: What sort of things did you design?
PDS: Well it started off on big dump trucks. You know -
HD: Right.
PDS: That would receive over cast material in coal mines and also in the big quarries and specific mines for specific materials, iron ore and that sort of thing but in addition to that because the the government over here was concerned at the amount of dollars that we were having to spend in buying equipment from the United States which they felt quite rightly that we could produce over here we were, the whole industry was asked to team up with American companies to produce American equipment under licence in this country and by that time I was, as I say a design section leader and I was immediately sent off with a colleague from the welding shops and a colleague from machine shops over to the States to get all the necessary information for getting these graders into production in Grantham which brought me again into contact with airfield construction equipment but coming back quite a bit because I’d already been in that when they said eventually, ‘Well sorry but we’ve ceased recruitment into the technical branch of the RAF but what we can offer you is a commission in the airfield construction service,’ so I thought well I suppose that’s as good as anything you see but even that folded up. They said, ‘Oh no we’ve got enough,’ so eventually about 1945 or the spring of 1945 before either VE or VJ I was more or less sort of hived off to win the peace and so my contact with the RAF more or less ceased at that point. Well, I wasn’t all that pleased. I thought well having spent the whole war doing everything I possibly could to train people up for the RAF through the Air Training Corps and so on and doing so much in contact with the RAF that suddenly to find that here were mere civilian bureaucrats turning around and saying well yeah ok sorry and all that but – so to be perfectly honest around about the spring of 1945 I made rude gestures towards the RAF. I thought right, blow them. And so for fifteen, for a period of about fifteen years I more or less ignored the RAF. I said more or less because by that time my wife and I had got, I’d met up with my wife and we’d got married. We were living on the far side of Grantham and every day when I came into the Aveling Barford company that I worked for I had to go through what was left of RAF Spitalgate and it rather peeved me because that became the headquarters of the RAF, of the ATC gliding set up and you could see all this activity going on and oh blow this for a game and I rather ignored it. But around about, I think it was about 1975 I suddenly got the urge again because during the war, long before you could get plastic kits of aircraft I always used to get the air crew members of the, of the Grantham squadron. I would give them a drawing and some photographs of a specific aircraft and say, ‘Right. Now here’s some bits of balsa. Try and make a model as closely as you could. Here we are. Here are some craft knives and so on and do this,’ because the great thing about it was by the time you’d converted this into a model however rough and inaccurate it would be the fact was that the bloke had reached the point when he could recognise that particular aircraft from any angle and it proved it because eventually we had a wonderful game that we used to do. We got one of these Aldis projector that projected slides and we fitted it up with a camera lens.
HD: Yes.
PDS: Not the lens. The shutter at the front so that we could put a picture in the thing, just click it and it would be on the screen for five seconds.
HD: Right. Yes.
PDS: Right. What was that? Oh that was an ME109. No it isn’t. It’s a Hurricane. Why isn’t it a Hurricane? Because so and so radiators and so on and so forth you see. Then we got it down to one second.
HD: Goodness me.
PDS: And eventually we got it down to the point when these could be recognised at two hundred and fiftieth of a second. It just went like that.
HD: Yes.
PDS: But the mere stick of the aircraft ‘cause I said straight away. That may be the saving of your life. If you can recognise that aircraft as being friend or foe. Your life might still be on. So it was interesting to make aircraft models long before there were kits and everything so that everybody knew the shape of these things and I remember I got, I got into a row up at Spitalgate because one of the instructors up there was doing a lecture and he’d got a whole lot of these slides and he put a slide in, released it, shut it immediately, he said, ‘You’re not supposed to see that.’ So I said, ‘I know you’re not.’ He said, ‘What is it?’ He said. This is the latest, they called it the Typhoon at the time.
HD: It is.
PDS: Well, he said, ‘You’re not supposed to know about that.’ Well [laughs]
HD: So what -
PDS: So the week after I gave him a model of it just from that -
HD: Oh really.
PDS: On that twenty fifth of a second. He took one look at this, he said , ‘Right. I’m confiscating that.’
HD: So what aircraft did you work on during your time?
PDS: Well these were mainly, it started off at, it started off at Grantham.
HD: Yes.
PDS: Now Grantham initially started with biplanes. Hawker Hinds and that sort of thing because at that time during the war the RAF was still mainly army cooperation. We worked on Avro Ansons which of course was notable because the Avro Anson was the first twin engine monoplane that the RAF had. The first one with a, with an enclosed gun turret, retractable undercarriage and so on. Also there were the RAF’s other trainer which was the Airspeed Oxford always known as the Ox Box because it was completely wooden apart from the engines and the other metal bits around it and then as we came over to, to Bottesford of course it was Manchesters and then Lancasters so we got to know those pretty well and I could still go inside the, I could go over to East Kirkby and they could put me blindfolded into the back of a Lancaster and I could walk down, down the Lancaster purely by feel and say right this is a giro compass just as you’re getting through the door. Yes. Now careful this is the point when you’ve got to get over, and so on and we got to know those pretty well. This was another thing of course that they used to do and even as cadets we would go on to a Lancaster which wasn’t doing anything in particular, you would be blindfold and that cadet had to spend ten minutes or a quarter of an hour completely blindfolded inside the Lancaster until he knew exactly where everything was because of course in the pitch dark when the aircraft was at all sorts of different angles you had to recognise where the, what the aircraft was by, by shape or smell because the Lancaster always had a distinctive smell.
HD: Did it?
PDS: When you poke your nose in to the back of the Just Jane or the one at, at oh Coningsby.
HD: Coningsby, yes.
PDS: There’s this distinctive smell. What it is missing of course was the smell which immediately hits you in an old well-worn Lancaster as you came through the door at the back was the fact during certain hair raising manoeuvres the elsan just in front of the spar of the tail plane would inevitably come adrift and it was always an ATC’s job to go and clean out the back of the - [laughs] So we got to know the smell of the Lancaster as well as the feel of it.
HD: The Lancaster. Yes. Yes
PDS: And then of course the blow fell because although we were being taken to Syerston eventually there was a complete reshuffle. They decided that A 5 Group should move further north and so the headquarters of the 5 Group moved up from Grantham up to Bawtrey, the various 5 Group squadrons moved further north so there was not only number 3 Group which was partly Lincolnshire, partly South Yorkshire but also 5 Group up there. Then of course in came in the magic air force. Have you ever, have you ever seen that film “The Magic Army,”?
HD: No. I haven’t.
PDS: This was Leslie Thomas’ skit of the arrival of the first American troops over in to this country and it’s an absolute howler. If you ever get a chance of seeing it you must see it.
HD: Yes.
PDS: It was the impact of what happened when -
HD: The Americans -
PDS: A complete American air force unit which was, because of course they were very heavily segregated in those days and here was this sleepy little south of England town which was suddenly invaded by a whole lot of gum chewing, be-bopping, American negro servicemen who took the local people by surprise.
HD: So what time of, during the war did they come? When was this?
PDS: Oh in ‘43. It was about -
HD: 1943. Yes.
PDS: 1943 when they came.
HD: Yes.
PDS: I mean they had been operating in East Anglia from, sort of ‘42 onwards because we moved out so that the main RAF bomber concentration was definitely Lincolnshire and Yorkshire and so the Americans they came in to the south of that. Then of course it was a question of the invasion and the net result was that Grantham 5 Group headquarters which as I said moved forward, moved up to Bawtry became, became the headquarters of the US Army Air Force 9th Troop Carrying Command and so in to all the stations the ex-bomber stations to the north of Grantham, or to the north east of Grantham became American. The previous one at Syerston became an Operational Training Unit. It was felt that they needed to have Operational Training Units a bit nearer to the, to the action. At the same time they wanted to move the RAF in to the new stations which were being formed in the east of Lincolnshire. Then of course in came the Americans and they had their headquarters in, at Fulbeck, at Fulbeck Hall. It became the headquarters of the American 9th Troop Carrying Command and Fulbeck airfield became the headquarter airfield to which we were attached. Now, that of course was a complete culture change because having been used to the RAF where everything was strictly security and so on to sort of to wander on to one of these airfields. We were collected in the morning, when we got on we were dumped outside. They said, ‘Alright boys, you know where the headquarters are. Make your way there.’ And so we would wander off and oh and, ‘It’s coffee break boys. Go down and, go down to the break,’ so we would go down and enjoy, I mean, after years of the old Camp chicory coffee suddenly being confronted because the Americans brought everything in. Do you know they even brought dustbins in from the States? Oh no they brought everything from toilet rolls to dustbins. I mean can you imagine it during the war when all the pressure on the, on the convoys in the Atlantic that they were bringing in toilet papers and dustbins over. Anyway, of course it was a cultural shock and I’ve written quite a bit about it. Now, what I think I would like to do if, I want to do another copy of this sometime. If you look at this you will see that this is what I call Cadet 1935 to 1945. Now, this starts off with me. I catch the air bug in the 1920s which was, if you like, the first chapter. Then here’s me in the King’s School defence sorry King’s School Grantham Officer’s Training Corps. Then a bit about the Public School’s Air Cadet Wing and particularly the camp at Selsey Bill there. Then there was the formation of the Grantham Air Defence Cadet Corps squadron in 1935. Just for a brief period I became an ARP messenger while I was still at school because my father would not allow me to join the Air Defence Cadet Corps until I was officially left school but in view of the fact the school wasn’t open that was my first job as ARP messenger. Then I joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps which went ‘39 to ‘40. Then this was attachments to RAF Bottesford. The attachment to RAF Syerston. I usually do this because I’ve done a lot of talking to Women’s Institutes and so on and of course until well after the war the ATC was strictly boys only but what many people don’t realise was that the, the women’s services were getting fed up with the fact that all the government assistance seemed to be going into the boys unit and so what was formed was called the Girls Training Corps and of course as soon as they started in Grantham we shared headquarters, much to the delight of all concerned and we trained up their NCOs until they were in a positon to operate separately. So that is a definite chapter, if you like, in my life.
HD: Is that where you met your future wife?
PDS: No. It wasn’t. No. I’ll tell you about that in a few minutes. Anyway, then with the magic air force, the 9 Troop Carrying Command at RAF Fulbeck and then I said anti-climax, and finale and then a little epilogue. Now –
HD: Very good.
PDS: If you would like to take that and dip into it.
HD: That would be lovely. Thank you very much. Thank you.
PDS: Yes.
HD: We’ll sort that out after the interview. Yes.
PDS: Yes.
HD: So tell me then, you’d obviously done all this training and then it got to 1945 and they didn’t need so many engineers.
PDS: That’s it.
HD: To go in to Bomber Command so –
PDS: It was goodbye and thank you.
HD: Yeah. So where did your life take you then?
PDS: Well as I say I was into design engineering but because the Institute of Mechanical Engineers were very strict on getting a broad, as broad as possible experience, I mean, nowadays you can get a qualification by purely being in, in, at university because during the war there was no university. You couldn’t, you couldn’t get that route through to technical qualification and nowadays of course provided you’ve done a certain amount of, if you like between term experience, work experience in engineering companies you would then be accepted as a graduate and then eventually when you got a position of some responsibility and some organisation that they can feel satisfied that you have got the broad spectrum of an engineering in general rather than something of a specific nature so what happened was at the end of the war I came to the conclusion that if I was going to become a qualified engineer I had to get more experience so I packed up this job in Grantham much to their annoyance and when I went I got a handshake from all my colleagues and I got less than a, than a friendly handshake from the firm because they didn’t want me to leave because I’d got quite a few jobs on hand but unfortunately due to the fact that my design experience lacked a certain amount of experience in the design and development of gear boxes and axles and that sort of thing. I was alright on structures but when it came to that it did mean that I was short of experience in the company and what happened was that they recruited what eventually turned out for me to be a cuckoo in the nest. As soon as he got here it was quite obvious he just took one look which said, you are out and so he did everything he could to get rid of me. What happened was that I’d already come to the conclusion that if I was to become generally qualified I’d got to get more general experience so pulled out and for two years I worked with a firm of contractors in Birmingham in their plant depot and eventually family problems meant that I had to come home due to the wife going down with TB and other problems. I had to come back and I joined the firm of Ruston Bucyrus. Now, I didn’t want to go back into production. I’d had enough to know that I was not happy in the works environment. Also the company at Lincoln which seemed to be the best place was not engaged in original design. They took basically stuff that had been designed by their parent company over in Milwaukee which they converted into British practice and so there was not a lot of original design work so I went to them and I said, ‘Well, I’d like to work for you.’ And it was just at the time when they were recruiting. They said, ‘Well, look we’re just in the process of a huge expansion. What we’re interested in is recruiting, if you like, a group of young Turks if you like, who could be the drive behind the new,’ And this was a time when computers were first coming in and so on.
HD: So what year was this?
PDS: This was in 1956. 1956.
HD: Yes.
PDS: So I joined this company Ruston Bucyrus but when I put my CV they said, ‘Well you know, ok we’ll introduce you to all the various directors of the different functions in the company and you choose. If you like a particular aspect. We’ll find a job for you.’ Which I thought was rather surprising and very nice. So, I went ‘Well, don’t hurry. Just think about it.’ Anyway I’d only been home about a week. ‘Would you come up to Lincoln again?’ ‘Yes.’ You know obviously query in my voice. ‘There’s been a development.’ ‘Oh yes’ ‘Yes. Well we’ll tell you about it when you come.’ So surreptitiously I came up to Lincoln. When I get there they said, ‘Well look. We have come to the conclusion that our distributors,’ how are you doing, alright? ‘We we’re finding that the, our distributors who we have been insisting sent their sales representatives to Lincoln to the firm of Ruston Bucyrus for a year’s training and when they get there what happens they are put with the apprentice department and the apprentice department just puts them into the shop.’ What we used to call shop soaking. They were just there. Which of course is not the way that one trains people, you see. Way back in the, way back in the old OTC days it was a case of whenever you had something to talk about you told them what you were going to tell them, then you told them, then you asked them what they’d been told. So I applied that same sort of technique up there and I was able to reduce this, this year-long programme down to something in the region of ten to twelve weeks which of course made a terrific difference and this company gradually developed to the point where I had a whole, I had a new building specifically designed for my use. I had a team of eight. There were five people working on visual aids so I got experience on producing film strips and films and slides and training material and so and then in addition to that I had a sales instructor and a service instructor with me, sort of heading it up and I also spent an awful lot of time round about in the 1960s travelling around Europe and most of the eastern world if you like because the, the North and South America was mainly handled from our Milwaukee head office and we did Europe, Africa, Australia, Australasia and so on. So I headed up this department until unfortunately because we had been making a very acceptable between five and ten percent profit during the years when the British were in command of the company when eventually the Americans got rid of their old guard and brought in a new bloke he said, ‘This is ridiculous. A company like you should be making thirty percent profit.’ So it was a case of downsizing and they literally took the guts out of it so that this company which used to be one of the principal, we employed six thousand people in Lincoln in those days just gradually went out. So eventually I was, I was made redundant from that. After a couple of years of being a gentleman of enforced leisure if you like, which is another story altogether I eventually was headhunted for teaching technical English at a, at a, an ex-teacher training college in Nottinghamshire. These were training overseas people in technical English before they went over to people like British Oxygen and the big fertiliser companies and so on. So it was teaching technical English. Oh we even, we even had people, which was always a very popular job teaching young Omani air force personnel who were on their way to Cranwell, to the college there and we had a whale of a time but it was interesting because I would be teaching probably seven hours a day.
HD: So what year was this?
PDS: This was 1950 sorry 1982 to ‘87. ‘82 to ‘87.
HD: Ok.
PDS: Now, that was very interesting because as I say, I would be teaching probably seven lessons a day and everyone was completely different. One would be the chemistry of combustion for fire service people, the next lesson would be aero dynamics for the people who were going to Cranwell and so on and so forth. An interesting period. Now -
HD: Can you, can we just go back to the war and your family? So were you always with your family? You never had to leave them behind.
PDS: No. That was it. Yes. What happened was that because we were in Grantham, in the middle of Grantham my mother was terribly claustrophobic. Where we lived in Grantham we were surrounded by tall buildings and we were on the direct bombing run for the cannon factory. The twenty five millimetre, twenty millimetre cannon factory British Marcos and time and again the streets just behind us had been caught by short fall bombs. My mother was dead scared she was going to be buried alive and we moved out into a deserted farmhouse in the area between Denton and Moorsalt by Belvoir which was a wonderful period. I must say that. That I have to admit that some of those wartime years for somebody who had been a townie was, some of the most wonderful things because of course in those days with the blackout there was none of this, this light pollution that you’ve got these days. I mean how many people today have seen the Milky Way?
HD: Very few I would imagine.
PDS: Yeah. Very few of them. I mean you have to be out at Kielder Forest or something.
HD: That’s right.
PDS: Where there’s absolutely no light.
HD: Yes.
PDS: Before you could see it.
HD: We had wonderful times up there and we saw an awful lot of the war going on from that area. We certainly enjoyed ourselves when we were living out there but most of the time I’m afraid my mother was by herself because my father as the commanding officer, he had a job in Lincoln and he was with the ATC during the evenings and I was there or I was over at the Newark Technical College and so on and eventually of course when it was obvious that I was not going to go into the RAF then we just settled down to a peacetime existence.
PDS: So where did you meet your wife and how did you meet your wife? Tell me.
HD: Well, this is, this is rather interesting actually because after the war of course there were no cars, no petrol, rationing. Everybody cycled everywhere. Well during the war I’d cycled to and from work. I mean by the time you’d done seven miles each way in the mornings and evenings, you know, you were pretty fit. The end of the war I decided I’d go down to visit my father’s relations down at Southampton which we’d been unable to really visit them due to the, all the, all the closure during the build up for the invasion and so on so I cycled down to Southampton. Then I spent a few days going around in that area. During that time I joined the Youth Hostels organisation like so many of us did at that time. I was coming back, I decided that I would just for the sake of it go over in to South Wales just to see what it looked like because I thought I’d have a holiday down there some time. Went in to the youth hostel at Mitcheldean in the Forest of Dean and couldn’t help noticing across, you know, one enchanted evening and all that sort of business, across the room were a couple of girls who were obviously the centre of attention. There was one particular good looking girl and the other one who was the taller, more gangly one who, I must admit she wasn’t initially as attractive but anyway I thought nothing of it because you see, you start off next morning. They go seventy five miles in that direction, I go seventy miles and that would be the end of it but lo and behold we turn up in Stratford Youth Hostel both booked in for the theatre there. There they were. So we sort of looked at each other. ‘Weren’t you at Mitcheldean? Yes. Knowing perfectly well we were at Mitcheldean because apparently Jean had spotted me as well. So anyway -
HD: Which one was Jean?
PDS: Jean was the older, taller, gangly one. It was only many years later that she admitted that her sister wasn’t going to get a word in [laughs]. Oh it’s so funny because I mean wwe were just kids let’s face it because after the war you see so many people who were twenty two or twenty three they suddenly discovered that they’d not really had a teenage and so many of them sort of turned back the clock and went through the motion of being teenagers again and they sort of did the daft things like cycling all over the place and joining the Youth Hostels Organisation and so on and though they might be departmental managers in the daytime they were kids at weekends.
HD: So how old were you when you met Jean then?
PDS: Well I was twenty three and she was twenty two.
HD: Yeah.
PDS: So what happened was that when we got back yes we went to the theatre together. Unfortunately we had booked in separate seats but that didn’t stop us joining up again for the, for the coffee break during which time we discovered I came from the Grantham area and she came from Spilsby. She and her sister. They were on a tandem. So anyway we got around to how we were going to get back up to, up to Lincolnshire again. They said, oh they were going through Tamworth and Rugby and Leicester and so on. I said, ‘Well that’s not a very nice interesting route.’ I said, ‘I’ll tell you what I’m doing.’ I said are you aware of the fact that there is a position where the Old Ermine Street crosses the old Fosseway and at that point the Fosseway continues up into the Lincoln area and it’s almost a dead straight route like most Roman roads, avoids habitation wherever possible but it was a dead straight road and at times it even went through farmer’s yards but we came all the way up until we met up until we finally decided that they were going on to Spilsby and their father was going to collect her and, and, and just a minute.
[pause]
HD: Mr Stevenson has just gone to find some photographs.
[long pause]
PDS: Being a great one for visual aids.
HD: Yes.
PDS: I did this when we were having a bit of a get together, the family and all the rest of it to sort of celebrate Jean’s death about a fortnight ago.
HD: Yes.
PDS: And if you like there is the significant part. This was Jean. Here we are when we first met.
HD: Yes.
PDS: That was that special day in 1946 when we first met up and this was many years later at the same place at Croxton Kerrial which is rather a special place for us. As you can see we were great, we used that tandem for nearly fifty years.
HD: My goodness. Mr Stevenson is showing me some photographs of Jean and their life and they were obviously keen cyclists.
PDS: And hill walkers.
HD: And hill walkers, yes.
PDS: And anyway we obviously, it clicked and from then onwards it was just a love story that went on for the next seventy years.
HD: Wonderful.
PDS: So -
HD: Well thank you very much and thank you very much for giving all your experiences to us and the interview will now finish and the time is nineteen minutes past eleven. Thank you very much Mr Stevenson.
PDS: Would you like a cup of coffee?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Peter Stevenson
Creator
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Helen Durham
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-17
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStevensonP160817
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Grantham
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Stevenson was born in Grantham and joined the Air League of the British Empire as well as the Air Defence Cadet Corps, The Officer’s Training Corps and the Public School’s Air Cadet Wing. He rose through the cadet ranks and embarked on training and other airfield duties and witnessed life on Bomber Command stations.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Language
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eng
Format
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01:10:25 audio recording
106 Squadron
207 Squadron
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
home front
Manchester
RAF Bottesford
RAF Grantham
RAF Syerston
sanitation
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/655/8927/PWilliamsAE1510.2.jpg
5fecc6c36af87c08eaf51d8ffb4c958e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/655/8927/AWilliamsAE150608.1.mp3
3fd201d6d7120aef974015fe29db8acb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Williams, Arthur Emlyn
A E Williams
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Williams, AE
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Flight Sergeant Arthur Emlyn Williams (b. 1923, 1836914 Royal Air Force) and a squadron photograph. He flew operations as an air gunner with 50 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AEW: My name is Arthur Emlyn Williams. I am recording this for Bomber Command and I have pleasure in doing so. I volunteered for aircrew prior to my twentieth birthday. Nineteen I was in nineteen forty, late ’42, ’43. I was employed in the mines but because a lot of friends of mine were going away I thought I wasn’t going to be left to them and let them do all what was necessary and the only reason I could leave the mines was either by volunteering for submarines or aircrew. Well, I didn’t, I didn’t fancy volunteering for submarines because in my opinion it was a highly dangerous job and in my opinion they were men. So I volunteered for aircrew and I was accepted to train as an air gunner. Ok?
MJ: Yeah, that’s fine.
AEW: My first thought of training was to Penarth for an after station bard to find out whether you were suitable to train as air crew. I was accepted then. Then a letter came requiring me to go to Air Crew Receiving Centre in Lords, London. We were there for about three weeks. Nothing very intensive but I quarrelled with my instructor Corporal MacDonald and he was a nasty old fella. Anyhow, from there we were posted to Bridlington up in the East Riding of Yorkshire where we did six weeks square bashing and quite intensive and we did a lot of training on a beach in Bridlington. Three weeks there. We were then transferred to um Bridgenorth for air gunnery training course, elementary air gunnery training course. We were there for quite a while and thoroughly enjoyable where we learned about turrets and pyrotechnics and what have you. Ok that went by, the EAGS the Elementary Air Gunnery School. Then from there we did, I was asked where I would like to go for air gunnery training so I thought there was one in, there were two in Wales. One, Stormy Down was one and then the other one was down in West Wales that was Number 1 Air Gunnery School. I applied, no I applied for, it was near home Stormy Down and lo and behold I wasn’t lucky. They posted me to Inverness right in the very north of Scotland where we did about six months on training as an air gunner and where we did our first spot of flying and where the, these fighters then were dragging what we called drawing in where we oh drogues they were pulling drogues and we had to fire at these drogues towed by these martinets and we all had coloured bullets, different coloured bullets so they could see well these were fired by Emlyn Williams or somebody else. And I mean during that period several bullets went quite the other’s martinets that was pulling the drogues. Right, after six months and we passed out as air gunner. I enjoyed my training up there. I was quite, quite young at the time. And that then after, given a week’s leave and then we were posted to Market Harborough where we did training on Wellingtons at an Operational Training Unit and this is where we had our first experience of a crash. We crash landed because, in my opinion, the skipper wasn’t quite knowledgeable enough with the angle of glide indicators which indicated when you were coming in to land. If they were two reds you were too high. Red and an amber you were still too high. Two ambers still too high until we had two greens. And of course we crossed when the, when the indicators showed we were too high. He wasn’t knowledgeable enough with what went on. None of us were hurt. Ok. We soon flew off. From there we went to Swinderby where we first enjoyed experiencing a four engine heavy bomber and they were quite, I enjoyed the Stirlings and they were quite heavy. And there we did our first more or less operational diversionary units. We went to targets to more or less make the enemy think we were going either, this indicated to easily where were we going oh dear, oh dear anyhow diversionary targets. Making the enemy think we were going there and drawing the main force from Germany. We were there for about three weeks and then of course until the skipper and all the crew were quite intimate with whatever or not with the Stirling we were transferred then to Syerston. Number, number, number 4 I think, Lancaster Finishing School. We were there for about ten days before they thought ok they’re quite conversant with the Lancaster then they transferred us to 50 squadron in Skellingthorpe, Lincoln. That was where we started our first operational [team] operations. Right.
MJ: [Bit more]
We were, we were crewed up in Market Harborough, Number 14 Operational Training Unit. Len [Farrow?] from Southport was the pilot. The navigator Vince from Essex. The wireless op was from Devon, Senior, Arthur Senior. The bomb aimer was from Canada but lived in Dundee for a few years, Jock Barr, we called him Jock. The engineer, his nickname was Boost, he was from, Alexander his name was from Scotland. The rear gunner was Taffy Thorne from Cwmbran in South Wales and myself Emlyn Williams from Swansea Valley. We all crewed up then and we were quite a happy crew and had, and we trusted each other implicitly. There were a several instances I would like to record. On each operation, however small or large, you know, each one had something else to say about each other. One instance was we flew to Trondheim in Norway and the weather was atrocious and I was sad to say that we, because of the weather we couldn’t drop the bombs and the bomb aimer didn’t want to drop the bombs anywhere in case it would injure a lot of civilians [in any other area?]. So we came back and we dropped the bombs on the sea and flew back to Wick in the very north of Scotland. I’ve got a letter somewhere in the house. The bomb aimer paying tribute to the magnificent navigator we had, Tom Vince. And the, the weather going back we were more or less, we were compelled to fly about twenty or thirty feet above the North Sea and we were so young then and wouldn’t say afraid but we couldn’t think of any danger at all. We flew back and when we arrived at Wick we had about five minutes flying time left. Course that was told to us after wasn’t it? Not to cause us any worry and we landed there because the weather was so bad. We stayed three nights there and we were like heroes. You can imagine us walking about Wick in our flying clothes because we didn’t have our own suits at all did we? And we were, we were the toast of the area. Eventually, time had come for us to depart for Lincoln. We were very disappointed because we enjoyed walking about the streets in Wick in our flying clothes. Still young weren’t we? Twenty, twenty one and Len now he was a bit of a daredevil so he flew back over Blackpool and I can see it myself now he flew, imagine over the tower of Blackpool we flew the main road and the beach was quite well, well below the level of the promenade in Blackpool and I can see him now he flew now right above the beach in Blackpool and this man walking the beach went like that.
Other: The thumbs up.
AEW: Thumbs up. I can see him now. By then the fog had cleared over Lincoln and we managed to land and that was one of the main reasons why we flew the North Sea because Lincoln was always shrouded in fog and we were often diverted. Yorkshire or down on the south coast and spent a day there, spent a night in Yorkshire, York and a couple of other places. And as I said fog was the main cause of us being diverted. On the 19th of September 1944 we were briefed to go on operation to a place called [Ratydt R A T Y D T] at ten thousand feet. Our, our master leader for that trip was Guy Gibson.
MJ: Yes.
AEW: With Dambusters but he was on a Mosquito and over the intercom we heard his message, ‘Hello main force. Hello main force. This is your master leader calling.’ We knew it was Guy Gibson. ‘I am down at two thousand feet and I can see everything bang on.’ And we were at about ten thousand. So he was marking the target for us at two thousand feet. After the operation we bombed and we left back for base and when we got back news had come to us that Guy Gibson failed to return. So, he must have been, I don’t know exactly what happened, there were so many rumours that he may have been shot down by a Mosquito in mistake for a Junkers 88. So, there many rumours about him not returning.
MJ: What do you think yours is?
AEW: Pardon?
MJ: What would you think? Your personal thoughts.
AEW: Well he could have been shot down by the ackack over the target or maybe shot down or wondering, might have been shot down by his own, his crews you know but I don’t like to, I don’t like to say anything, you know. He was there to mark a target and he did a good job in marking the target. Being red or green I don’t know but anyway the main thing was he didn’t return, so.
Other: Here.
AEW: Ok. I can’t remember the operation we went on but the weather was quite atrocious again and we flew through many an electrical storm and icing was also a danger to us, was beginning to form now on the wings you know. So clouds were ten tenths. So to fly out of the cloud and we had to fly as high as we could and ten tenths cloud means ten tenth. Thick cloud isn’t it? Eventually, this was the most amazing thing, we flew as far as twenty six thousand feet and I can see it now. As we emerged from the cloud, had it been a second earlier, we would have collided with a Liberator. We were going home and they were going out to bomb a target. A second earlier and we were just emerging from a, I said, ‘Christ, skipper, that was close.’ Well, I thought I could have touched it like you know. It was, oh dear, I don’t know it was twenty six thousand feet, just emerging and there he was and we flew at twenty six thousand feet for a very, very long time and slowly the cloud began to, cloud situation easing up and it was still intense and the skipper thought, ‘Well, look here boys if things don’t improve we’ll have to bail out.’ So, most of the crew went as far as the main door. We opened the door getting ready to bail out now and anyhow we were over a place called Rouen. Is it Rouen? Rouen? Over France. And the clouds just disappeared and we could see land. So we come down from twenty six thousand feet down to eight hundred feet. Even that was low to bailout but anyhow we were amazed at that and we were all thrilled and we shouted for joy, ‘Oh thank goodness for that.’ And then we flew back over the coast all the way to Lincoln. There was another instance when we did the three trips to Munich really. One was when I celebrated my twenty first birthday over Munich.
MJ: Yeah.
AEW: And that was quite, quite an exciting night really and it was such a beautiful night for bombing and our target was um we had to open city. That meant we had to bomb the city itself and I can see looking down on Munich and where we were now when I had my twenty first birthday eighteen thousand feet and we were looking down and the streets were quite plain. Ideal. It did affect me a little bit because we were asked to just to bomb the streets. You know, no specific target in mind but just the streets and I think we were, you couldn’t refuse. We were briefed for it and if you refused you were more or less branded LMF weren’t you? Lack of moral fibre. And you just had to carry on but I had my twenty first birthday. Still young weren’t we? Three time over Munich and back from one trip then I forget whether daylight it was and where I was as mid upper gunner I could see everywhere three hundred and sixty degrees isn’t it, you know and on the way back I happened to look out and there over the sea I spotted an aircraft had ditched so I gave the information to Tommy Vince, navigator, and the wireless op to take a fix so they could send a message back and say exactly where it was. So that’s where I had my nickname as Catseyes Williams. [Laughs]. That’s it. Yeah. Ok. There was one instance I had finished flying and I was making my way over to the mess to have tea and of course there were two squadrons on Skellingthorpe, 50 and 61. Well 61 squadron were taking off and Squadron Leader Horsley was leading the squadron so I watched him. He was taking off first and as I, and in fact as I was walking across the runway [nearly finished taking off first] and then he took off and I heard it quite plainly. His engine cut. It had a full bomb load. So I watched him. His idea was to come in again so in actual fact he flew around the cathedral and came back in again to land but as he came in to land his other engine cut and he just ploughed in to the ground and blew up. And I can see myself now flat on the floor trying to mind all the debris from the aircraft and I remember quite well after that the rear gunner was the only one alive and he was buried in his turret into the ground about ten feet. Squadron Leader Horsley was one in front. Anyway, we were briefed then for another one to Stettin. And funny thing I never had any mixed feeling about any, any trip we flew like you knew but Stettin, I had mixed feelings about Stettin. We already, we hadn’t, we hadn’t quite entered the aircraft. We were in dispersal we were and anyway, word had come through that it was cancelled and we all just kissed the ground isn’t it because of the mixed feelings I had that we would never come back. Right, as a youngster people say weren’t you ever afraid? Being nineteen, twenty, I didn’t know what danger was. Whether you believe me or not but we’d seen many a night fighter ME110 mainly at night. But at daylight we’d usually normally meet the ME109s or Fokker Wolf 190s but the only thing I can honestly say that the only thing I was afraid at night were collisions and I’d seen many. And one night of course we were flying and this Lancaster came across. I thought he was going to hit us so I said, ‘For Christ’s sake skipper, dive.’ And down he went and this Lancaster flew over us. Why the crew didn’t see us at all but if I hadn’t seen him he would have hit us and from then on I was really scared about collisions. Ok. I am the last surviving crew member of a Lancaster bomber, Emlyn Williams of Pontardawe near Swansea. It all began back in 1941 when I was the son of an unemployed father. We were more or less requested to go into the mines rather than be called up for the armed forces so that I could support the family with an extra income. The job I was given was quite a safe job really looking after the main turbine pump in a mine responsible for keeping the water level safe. I could have remained in a comfortable job for the rest of the war but I was rather uneasy most of the time, most of my friends were either volunteering or were called up for the army, RAF or the navy. I knew that my only chance of leaving the colliery was to volunteer for the submarines or aircrew. These two services were the only alternative available. I did not fancy the subs as I considered this to be too dangerous and so unknown to my parents I volunteered for aircrew. This process took a while and it was [summer or sometime?] 1942 when I came across this letter by accident. My parents had hidden it from me. This letter asked me to present myself at an address in Penarth to attend an [?] Board. This was a three day event. A pass or fail effort. Sometime later I got the result I wanted that said I had satisfied the examiner and would notify me in due course of the next involvement. At this stage I spilled the beans to my mother and father who were both upset at the news. All this took time of course. I was still nineteen in September 1943 when I received confirmation from the RAF that I’d been accepted for training for aircrew as an air gunner. The training was in stages of course. First of all at the Aircrew Receiving Centre in London. That was my first taste of what it was like for the first time away from home. It was quite an ordeal as the instructor there was for one purpose, for breaking you in slowly. This lasted three weeks and in that time I wished I was back in my soft job looking after the pump. Living in London was quite expensive and my seven shillings a week did not go very far. By the end of the three weeks I had become quite hardened to the punishment I’d received and was ready for the next posting to Bridlington in the East Riding of Yorkshire. This was all square bashing but a lot easier, healthier, good body building and enjoyable. I was in fact sorry to leave for [the next?]. The, the next part of the course was to Bridgenorth, Wales where I had to go six week at a Preliminary Air Gunnery School. This was familiarisation with turrets Frazer Nash and Boulton Paul and of course machine guns and pyrotechnics. This took six weeks in all and was excellent basic training. From there I was given several options regarding going to air gunnery school. I knew there were one or two in Wales and so I asked to go to Stormy Down near Bridgend, a half hour journey from Pontardawe. But my hopes were soon dashed when they announced my next posting was to Dalcross near Inverness. The Jocks in my company were delighted of course for they were going home and to my disappointment there was to be no appeal and to Scotland I went. This was for a period of six months training and the experience of flying for the first time in an Anson aircraft. This involved firing Brownings 303 guns at an aircraft towing a drogue. I felt sorry for this pilot as many a burst from our guns went astray. Each trainee were given coloured bullets. Different colour for each. I was given [? issued with rockets?] this went on for six months. Weather permitting of course. [? ] Bombings were indoor training, use of parachutes, dinghy training, theory and practical work all to do with preparing for the big day. Operations. At the end of the six months those who had successfully completed the course were promoted to sergeant and were given a few days leave. This soon expired and was called back for further training at an Operational Training Unit at Market Harborough where I experienced flying in a twin engine Wellington bomber. This was where I met the rest of the crew and good boys they were. Pilot from Southport, navigator from Essex, bomb aimer from Dundee, engineer from Scotland, wireless op from Hastings, rear gunner South Wales, Cwmbran and myself, mid upper gunner. We were a happy crew and enjoyed our stay at the OTU. One exciting part of it was when we crash landed at night. This was admitted by the pilot it was a case of not fully understanding the angle of glide indicators. The aircraft was a right-off but we were all ok. The next part of course was to a Conversion Unit at Swinderby where we would experience flying in a four engine bomber. This again [?] a much bigger aircraft. Our stay was four weeks. We were involved in diversionary tactics diverting fighter attacks and flak from the main bomber force. This would prove fateful for some crews but we came through unscathed at Swinderby. We were posted to Syerston in Lancaster Finishing School where we did enjoy more familiarisation in a Lancaster for ten days. This was a lovely experience as she was an outstanding aircraft. We were again given leave prior to joining a bomber squadron at Skellingthorpe in Lincoln, 50 squadron. Following our leave we were first to join other crews at Skellingthorpe. Lancaster VNC Charlie. This was to be the beginning of a nerve racking tour. I was now twenty, about twenty going on twenty one. This aircraft was to survive thirty five operations. Daylight ops but mainly night ops which took us to France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Norway and close to the Russian border. Night collisions were many. I saw many going down even prior to the bombing run and on one occasion I had to shout to the skipper over the intercom, ‘Dive, dive,’ and this Lancaster was about five feet above us with its bomb doors open. The other danger was to try and avoid other Lancasters below. What I said was excellent and as you know I was Catseyes Williams. I could see well at night. Guy Gibson so fed up of ground duties after being told to take things easy persuaded the higher ups to give him one more chance and so he was given a Mosquito to fly ahead from the main force to mark a target with a particular colour for the bombers to aim for. It’s possible that I am the only remaining crew member to hear his voice over the intercom. These are his words of course, ‘Hello main force. This is your master leader calling. I am down at two thousand feet. I can see everything bang on.’ We were at a height of eleven thousand feet. He did not survive that operation and there are several rumours as to his death. Weather does play an active part to us flying. We were flying the following night on an operation when the weather turned nasty and we were in ten tenths cloud and no sign of it abating. Ice was forming everywhere and we were forced to climb to twenty six thousand feet. As we were emerging from the crowd this liberator skimmed just above us. Had we emerged a second earlier there is no doubt we would have collided. This incident stands out in my mind. We continued on our homeward journey. With no sign of things improving the navigator told the pilot to start descending as the icing was giving us more problems. This continued for nearly an hour with no sign of an improvement. Petrol was a problem. But all of the sudden the pilot gave us the order to stand by to bail out and to our relief we broke cloud at eight hundred feet not far from the French coast. We continued over the English Channel [moving papers] Oh that one. We -
MJ: It’s alright.
AEW: Alright? We landed at an airfield on the south coast at Tangmere where we stayed until the fog was cleared in Lincoln. That’s it.
[Metre 3346 until 5441 the interview has stopped but the tape is still recording. Transcription discontinued]
MJ: On behalf of the Bomber Command Project I’d like to thank Emlyn Williams at his home on the 8th of June. June yeah. Yeah, June 2015, on the 8th thank you very much.
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Interview with Arthur Emlyn Williams
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-06-08
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Sound
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AWilliamsAE150608, PWilliamsAE1510
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:54:59 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Arowen Armstrong
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Emlyn Williams talks about his life before volunteering and what lead him up to volunteering. His parents were upset about his decision to join the RAF. In September 1943, he was accepted for training as an air-gunner. He started his first operational tour from RAF Skellingthorpe. He recalls an occasion where they flew to Trondheim in Norway, flew over the North Sea to get back to Wick in Scotland. He tells of the weather during this trip and how, when they landed back at Wick, the craft only had 5 minutes of flying time left. On September 1944, the crew was briefed to go on an operation to Ratydt. During this operation, the crew had a close call where they almost collided with a Liberator. The crew prepared themselves to bail out over Rouen because of the weather, however they managed to fly back to Lincolnshire. On his 21st birthday, he had an operation to Munich. On the return trip, Arthur noticed a ditched aircraft and he gained the nickname Catseye Williams. At Skellingthorpe, Arthur recalls watching 61 Squadron leader Horsley’s craft blow up after both of his engines cut. Arthur notes his ambivalence and anxiety towards his next operation in Stettin after this. The crew came across a Lancaster that almost collided with them, only being avoided by their pilot diving the craft to not collide with the Lancaster.
14 OTU
50 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
crash
fear
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Master Bomber
Operational Training Unit
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/655/8928/PWilliamsAE1510.1.jpg
5fecc6c36af87c08eaf51d8ffb4c958e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/655/8928/AWilliamsAE150617.2.mp3
9335f5418f0e026f69f5ee64a2872b46
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Williams, Arthur Emlyn
A E Williams
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Williams, AE
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Flight Sergeant Arthur Emlyn Williams (b. 1923, 1836914 Royal Air Force) and a squadron photograph. He flew operations as an air gunner with 50 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2015-06-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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EM: My name is Emlyn Williams, born in 1923 in the Swansea valley. That makes me nearly, nearly ninety two next birthday. I volunteered for the RAF and accepted to be trained for an air gunner. Now, when I volunteered I was in the mines. I had a good job and I could have stayed there for the rest of my life but I was, I trained to be a pump operator which involved maintaining the water level so that it didn’t flood the mine. So, I applied and the only reason I could join was by, to leave the mines was to volunteer for either air crew or submarines but I didn’t fancy submarines because I thought it was a dangerous job. Right, um first of all we went as far as Penarth to, to find out whether I was suitable to be trained. We were there for three days. Anyway, for a while time went on and I had a letter saying that you are suitable to be trained so that was fair enough. Shortly after that I got a letter which my mother hid from me because she didn’t want me to go because my father was unemployed and I wanted, she wanted me to stay where I was to bring in extra money to the, to the house. Well, I had a letter from the Air Ministry asking why I hadn’t replied so they sent me another letter which I made sure I found and I had a letter and I wrote back to state that I was willing to be trained and consequently I had another letter then to say that I was expected and I would be sent another letter with further details on what to do. Right, the other letter came to say that I was accepted and I was to proceed to Lord’s, near Lord’s Cricket Ground where we were trained, well, you know, Corporal MacDonald was our instructor and he was a nasty one and I was sorry then I had volunteered but anyway it was ACRC Air Crew Receiving Centre. We were there for about three weeks. From there, of course, we went to, first stop from there is, was Bridlington, square bashing we were for quite a while. Six weeks a think. Where we were trained on the beach and it was quite enjoyable. Can we stop now?
[Pause]
Six weeks from Bridlington we were, I was posted then to Elementary Air Gunnery School, Bridgenorth. We were there for a while training on turrets, pyrotechnics, various turrets you know and it was quite enjoyable but there was no flying then at all. So, that was Bridgenorth and from there, Elementary Air Gunnery School we were asked then where we would like to go for Air Gunnery School where flying was involved. Well, of course, being a Welshman I said well I wouldn’t mind going to either Stormy Down near, near Cardiff or Pembrey, Number 1 Air Gunnery School. And I was hoping that would be the case. Either of those. But lo and behold the next thing I had a letter saying I was to be transferred to Inverness [laughs] at a place called Dalcross, Number 2 Air Gunnery School. Well, I couldn’t do nothing about it. Couldn’t argue. So we were posted there and we were there for six months where we were trained in Ansons. Well, that involved flying where martinets kept towing a drogue and we were involved now in shooting at this drogue and each one had different coloured bullets to prove now if mine was red and I had more red markings it meant that I had better success than the others but anyway there was red bullets, green bullets, brown bullets. You name it that was it. Six months there I think we were transferred then we were passed then and then we had our stripes. Sergeant. That made us more proud than ever like. And of course we had a brevvy. We were sent from there down to Market Harborough, 14 Operational Training Unit and we had to familiarise with Wellington bombers and there of course we crewed up. Len Farrow, the skipper and so forth. Tommy Vince, navigator from Essex. Jock Barr, bomb aimer, Dundee. Engineer, Boost his nickname was, from Alloa in Scotland. The wireless operator he was from Hastings. Taffy, the rear gunner was from Cwmbran in Wales and myself. The rear gunner opted to go now to be the rear gunner because [he was short, short ass we called him] so he went and it suited him quite well to go into the rear gunner position. I kept to the upper gunner position my eyes were perfect. I had good vision, better vision at night than it was during the day and that’s where I gained my nickname was Catseye Williams because I was good with eyesight. Right. That was when we experienced our first crash landing in Market Harborough. I think was because the skipper wasn’t quite acquainted with the angle of glide indicators which indicated either two reds you were too high, red and amber you were still too high, two ambers questionable, then you had to wait to get two greens which meant you were ok to land. He couldn’t have been acquainted with the situation because we landed what four or five fields back and fortunately the area was so flat and it was a right off, the old Wellington but we suffered no injuries. We were ok. Ok, after a while there we had some leave and we were transferred to Swinderby where we had to acquaint ourselves with four engine bombers and she was a big one, the old Stirling. Huge. And when we did first started landing we must have bounced about fifty feet away because skipper wasn’t quite acquainted with the controls and that was, that was the Stirling. I think it was [1660] high conversion unit and we were there about six weeks. Ok, that was enough for us. We were transferred then to Syerston. I think it was number, I think Number 4 Lancaster Finishing School. I’m not quite sure of the number. We were there for about ten days to again familiarise ourselves with the aircraft which we did and then of course the big moment came where we were told we were now going to transfer you to a squadron and the squadron was 50 squadron where there were two squadrons on the station 50 and 61. And we enjoyed it there and of course each operation we were a bit apprehensive of all operation big, long or short you know. Ok. Brest was my first operation. It was only about three hours. Three or four hours but even then we thought it was an easy one but several aircraft were shot down over Brest and we had to more or less follow the armed forces the army. Brest and we went as far as Le Havre, Boulogne, these were pretty good you know and we had no difficulty, you know. Nothing frightening about the operations. Then of course they must have thought they’ve had enough of these short operations and start doing the big ones. Where are we? A Flight, C for Charlie we were and we flew the same aircraft right throughout thirty five ops. Incidentally, there was an aircraft next to us D for Dog they were called then. Now they’re called Delta aren’t they? That aircraft went missing on every trip and because of that I think they changed the call sign D for Dog to [double dix?] I’m not quite sure but we were very sorry. We knew the boys well and every trip they went missing. This was very sad you know isn’t it? Now, we were lucky. Thirty five ops and no problems at all. Right. This was mentioned that Lincoln was always immersed in fog with the result of course that we were diverted many a time because of this. Just to mention Tangmere down in the south. There was Ludford Magna in Yorkshire. There was Pocklington in Yorkshire and Dishforth up in Yorkshire. It wasn’t very far was it? Not very far from Lincoln was it? Next, next county I think. And it was quite a novelty for us meeting other aircraft. Mostly Halifax crews you know. And of course one, Wick was one in the very north of Scotland. Wick. We were briefed to fly to a place in Norway, Trondheim. And we were quite a long trip Trondheim but there again that caused problems because the weather was so bad we couldn’t see the target and the bomb aimer didn’t want to drop the bombs on anything other than the target so we dropped the bombs in the sea. Right, this meant then after that we were informed that Lincoln again was shrouded in fog so we flew over the North Sea and the weather was atrocious and the bomb aimer warned the skipper many a time, ‘Skip,’ he says. ‘You are flying too low. If you keep at this all the time we’ll be hitting the sea.’ So he rose for a little while and after a while we landed in Wick. The very north of Scotland and he did, when we landed the engineer said, ‘Well we’ve been very lucky.’ He says, ‘We’ve only got about seven or eight minutes fuel left,’ when we landed and we were lucky. And we stayed there for three or four days in Wick and, dressed in flying clothing we felt like heroes you know walking the streets of Wick. Teamed up with the girls and all that. And we were sorry really to leave Wick to fly back to Lincoln but the time came of course and we had to fly back and Len, the skipper did enjoy doing a bit of daredevil flying like you know. We flew over Blackpool on the way back and I can see us now we practically, the promenade in Blackpool is quite high and we flew now almost parallel with the promenade over the beach. And I can see this man now with his thumbs up as if to say, ‘Well done boys,’ and eventually we landed in Lincoln. That was quite an enjoyable trip and especially low flying over Lincoln. Some exciting moments did occur during our career in flying. One was of course was when Guy Gibson, VC, was marking a target for us. For a long time the air ministry officials thought well he’s done enough flying so they pleaded with him to give up flying and give him a desk job. He didn’t like that at all and he pleaded and pleaded. In the end they allowed him to fly a Mosquito and of course on that night there was a target called Ratydt R A T Y D T. I can’t remember what, what was involved but Guy Gibson was marking the target for us. We were up in eleven thousand feet and his voice came over the radio to say, ‘Hello main force. Hello main force. I am down at two thousand feet and I can see the target bang on.’ Those were his words. We were up at eleven thousand feet. I’ll always remember that. In fact I wrote to [?] to ask if any other crew members who were on the same trip heard his voice and I had a letter back stating that he, this particular man, did hear his voice so that was a little proof that Guy Gibson was marking the target. Whatever the colour was I don’t know but anyway Guy Gibson, he never made it back and there were so many rumours of what happened so I wouldn’t like to say. [?] He didn’t come back anyway so that was that. That was one incident. Ok. I can’t say, I was so young then, I can’t say I was really scared about operations. We were attacked many times by night fighters, mainly ME110s but my main fright was night collisions and there were many. There were many. On one occasion I had good vision all around and the next thing this Lancaster came towards us and I thought, ‘Is he going to hit us?’ So I said, ‘For Christ’s sake skipper, dive.’ Down he went. And this Lancaster had its bomb doors open. I’m sure that if he’d continued and we hadn’t dived he would have hit us with his bomb load and all so that was that. Many a Lanc went down through colliding with others and of course being, I was an asset really because my night vision was one hundred percent. Fantastic. But as I said collisions were my main concern. It was the only thing I was frightened about. Ok. Yeah. Ok, another incident was following our attack on some target I can’t remember we were we left the target and the weather was absolutely atrocious. Ten tenths cloud, ice was forming on the wings, electrical storms we went through and they were nasty so the skipper said, ‘Well to get out of this we’ve got to fly higher, twenty six thousand feet to get out of the clouds.’ Twenty six thousand feet. That was quite high for a Lancaster then but we made it but as we emerged from the cloud had we been a second or so earlier we would have hit this Liberator. We were going home and he was flying out to a target I expect. Well, I was amazed. I absolutely swore. I won’t say what I did, what I said but as we made it he flipped above us. Two seconds earlier we’d have hit him and that would have been a catastrophe wouldn’t it? But anyway we were lucky. He was flying to a target and we were going home. We were flying back now and there was no sign of the ten tenths clouds abating. He was so worried, the skipper, and the navigator. He knew where we were. So, the skipper said, ‘Well, if this is going to happen, is going to get worse,’ he says. ‘We’ll have to think about baling out.’ So he told us all to stand by the back door, get the back door open ready for baling out because he was concerned now about our petrol situation but we flew and we flew and we flew and all of a sudden we broke cloud somewhere over France and we were down to eight hundred feet. It was still a bit low to, to consider baling out but anyhow at eight hundred feet we saw no more cloud and we were lucky. So we flew back to Lincoln but because Lincoln was again shrouded in fog we were told to divert to Tangmere, down in the south, and that’s what we did. We there for a day or two before considering flying back to Lincoln. One funny side of life was, the crew, now I’m not sure whether we had finished operations but we were going out to Lincoln for a night out, seven of us and there we were at the top of the road now, waiting for a bus and what, what went by was a hearse and all very old fashioned they were old fashioned then 1940 ’44 [or so]. He pulled up and said, ‘Boys would you like a lift?’ [laughs] So we all trooped in the hearse and took us all to Lincoln. [laughs] It was a funny one wasn’t it? Whether that would have been a bad omen or something I don’t know but anyway life went on as usual and we thanked him and then we went for a couple of pints. Then of course when we finished flying the air crew situation was well there were so many surplus. Some of course had to fly to France or whatever to, Manna was it? When they were dropping food to these towns that were deprived of food and what have you. And of course we then we weren’t involved anymore we were advised then to to think what we would like to do so the Airfield Construction Unit was the main job we had and then transferred to Aberdeen and Dyce airport. Airfield control assistant my job was. To man a caravan on the end of the runway and take part in controlling aircraft that wanted to take off or land. On top of that I was so young and so full of energy that I joined the mountain rescue and I thoroughly enjoyed that and we were involved in many a rescue and life then was great between the two jobs and that was it until I was more or less considered for demobilisation. One other thing that caused the problems was the fact that when we were ready to take off we didn’t mind that at all but there was one instance a target called Stettin. I think I had mixed feelings about that. I thought if we went on that well I didn’t fancy my chances at all. That feeling you had like, you know. But anyhow the wireless op had a message, ops cancelled. We said, ‘Thank God for that.’ So we all kissed the ground. And of course prior to that of course well then we had to take wakey wakey tablets didn’t we because we’d already taken tablets to keep us awake for the whole trip and then we had other tablets then to correct that and then for us to allow us to go to sleep. All [your?] problems isn’t it? But Stettin was, well the only one I had mixed feelings about but fortunately it was cancelled. Ok.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command Oral History Project my name is Michael Jeffery. I’d like to thank Emlyn Williams on the 17th of the 6th 2015 for his recording. Thank you very much.
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Interview with Arthur Emlyn Williams
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-17
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Sound
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AWilliamsAE150617, PWilliamsAE1510
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:27:09 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Arthur Emlyn Williams was working as a pump operator at the mines, before he volunteered for the RAF. His mother hid his first recruitment letter. He trained at Lord’s Cricket Ground, and Number 2 Air-Gunnery school at Inverness, on Ansons. He discusses a crash at Market Harborough while at 14 Operational Training Unit. He flew operations with 50 squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. Arthur gained his nickname Catseye William because his eyesight was better at night than the day. Arthur’s first operation was in Brest, and it lasted 3 hours. In Trondheim, Norway, the bomb aimer wanted to drop bombs on the target, but because of the weather they couldn’t see the target, so they dropped bombs over the North Sea instead. Arthur was afraid of collisions, noting an occasion where they almost crashed into a Lancaster that had its bomb doors open and another near miss with a Liberator. After Arthur finished his tour, he went on to other jobs as an Airfield control assistant and in mountain rescue.
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Arowen Armstrong
14 OTU
50 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
crash
fear
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Master Bomber
Operational Training Unit
RAF Dalcross
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/783/9337/AHarveyH180914.2.mp3
bba4bd39453a961b7beb6e9a98fe56b2
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Title
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Harvey, Harold
H Harvey
Description
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An oral history interview with Harold Harvey (b. 1923). He lived in Lincolnshire during the war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-09-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Harvey, H
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Transcription
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MS: First of all, I’m going to start off with some formal stuff. It is exactly 10.21 and it’s Friday the 14th of September 2018, and I’m sitting with Harold Harvey who wants to be known as Harold. Yeah?
HH: Correct.
MS: Ok. And you’re going to be interviewed by me. By me, for the purposes of the International Bomber Command, University of Lincoln, IBCC and Lincoln Digital Archives. You’ve agreed to be interviewed. There are no other persons present because you’ve consented to be interviewed without anybody here but I’ve made it clear to you that, and we’ve got a very nice cup of coffee at the moment, if anybody, if you ever need a comfort break or anything like that because I understand you’ve had an operation recently you just stop the interview and you go and have your comfort break any time you get tired etcetera. Now, are you happy to be interviewed?
HH: Yes. I’m quite happy with that. In fact, I’m pleased to do it.
MS: Thank you very much. That’s very kind. One nice thing about this is that when the interview has been dealt with and transcribed at the, at Riseholme, you will get a copy of the interview. I’ll also go through some other stuff at the end of the interview as well.
HH: That will be very nice and useful for my family.
MS: It will be.
HH: In the future. Yes.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Yes.
MS: Right. So, basically what do you want to tell me?
HH: Well, my very early memories go back to before the war related to the war, and I might not have got the year exactly right but I’m going back to 1938.
MS: Smashing.
HH: And there was an airship came up the line of the Witham very, very slowly one mid-afternoon which created quite a bit of interest to the people in the village because you didn’t see much flying in those days except birds. So, anything like that was, was of interest.
MS: I need to interrupt you for two seconds because I realise I’ve forgotten to say something and you’ve reminded me of it. We’re actually sitting in your house in the moment which [deleted].
HH: Washingborough.
MS: Washingborough. Right. So that’s what you’re describing. You’ve seen this from Washingborough.
HH: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
MS: I apologise. Carry on.
HH: And living where I did, we, we were only several yards from the Witham. The length of a field from the Witham, and apparently what came out after that was that it had, it was a German, it was a German airship. It had entered the Witham at the Wash at Boston, and it was plotting a route for the enemy aircraft to come in when they, if at that time if the war broke out against us it was plotting a route for enemy aircraft to come and bomb our cities in the Midlands and the North. The Midlands and the North. That’s important because Lincoln Cathedral was a landmark for the German aircraft apparently, and we could tell from where we was at Washingborough whether they were heading north, Manchester, Sheffield that area, or down south Nottingham, Birmingham or the Midlands. That was my very first impression of anything related to what might have been hostilities.
MS: What age were you at this time?
HH: I would be, I would be, well I would be six. I would be six then because the year, seven when the war eventually broke out. It was in September wasn’t it when the war broke out, and I remember it very well being announced over the radio set in the house, actually next door to where we are now. That house next door to where we are now with my sister and my mum and dad. It come on. It is with great regret that we have to announce that we are with hostilities with Germany or words to that effect. We’d given them an ultimatum and we’ve had no reply so we’ve no alternative but to declare war, you see. Go to war.
MS: Who was with you when you heard the declaration? [pause] Who was with you in the room when you heard the declaration?
HH: My mother and father and my sister. My elder sister.
MS: What was the, what was the reaction in the room?
HH: Well, silence. It, it didn’t particularly disturb me because I was obviously too young to really understood what it all meant, but looking back I can see my father’s face. Very much of concern on his face. And however, that was on a Sunday morning, and on that very evening at dusk or just after dusk the sirens sounded that told us that in the event of any aircraft coming over, enemy aircraft coming the sirens would sound from the factories, which they did. And I can always remember my father said, ‘Right. We’ve got to take shelter,’ and he put us under the, under the big old wooden table that we had like it. But nothing happened of course. I think it was just something to get everybody going. That was my first, that was my first memories of, of, of the Second World War. But then there was a period then when we didn’t notice. We didn’t notice that anything was happening. Nothing happened around here. We could hear, occasionally hear on the radio where something had happened. Mainly down south. Enemy aircraft had been spotted, or they’d been over but then, but then the enemy bombing started, you see.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And things begun to heat up a bit, but then that wasn’t until well in, well in to the 1940, you see. Again, it didn’t affect us at all, because it wasn’t significant around here. But then it seemed when I say all of a sudden things started to happen quickly in as much as there was a lot of movement. Aircraft started to appear. I can’t quite remember the early ones, but they were taking it seriously and, and, and they realised they had to do something to counteract, because the Germans were then coming over in a little bit more force with their more, far more modern bombers and they were modern bombers in those days, the. You know, the Messerschmitt 110s and the Heinkels and all the things like that and of course the fighters, the Messerschmitt 109s and things like that. And airfields. Airfields started to appear in Lincoln. Fiskerton. It was our first sighting of any sort of activity rather than action. Activity. And apparently what they used to do they used to go around and select a site and get the bulldozers and get cracking and then could tell the farmers that they was occupying the fields to the dismay of a lot of the landowners of course.
MS: Right.
HH: At Fiskerton, and we could see it because it was just on the hill rise looking over the Witham from us. Oh, I’ll say a mile and a half away. And although main, the main airfield part of the airfield was sort of behind trees and hedges the, the main runway which went northeast southwest it appeared, and we could see the aircraft on the airfield when they were at that end of the airfield. And, and of course then by the time they’d got that I think we were going, getting on to ’42 now. 1942, and, and, and the planes started to appear. Before that we had seen planes like, well the Manchester was the forerunner of the Lancaster. It seemed to be the one. And the Wellingtons and the Whitleys, and the Hampdens. Aeroplanes like that were appearing from bases like Waddington and Scampton which were already established bases. I understand that even bases like Coningsby was really not, it was in the early part of the war when it started. Obviously Cranwell.
MS: Oh yeah.
HH: But it was a training base. Mainly a training base. It was one of the first round here going back, I think I’m right to say 1918 or something like that. 1921, it was when it was commissioned to the RAF. Anyway, I might be wrong with my facts there but yeah it was when the airfields started to get in to Lincolnshire. And then there was Fiskerton. We were very interested in Fiskerton because we could see it. But then we got to know there was one being built at Bardney. One being constructed at Metheringham. There was, there was the three satellite ones at, well Coleby was a fighter airfield which came along a bit later. But then you go around to Skellingthorpe and, and then you come across to the satellite ones at, at, at Scampton which was Dunholme Lodge and Ingham although it was a bit further away but the aircraft started to get more intense. And even though Fiskerton was a mile and a half or so away building, well not building work but we saw work around here because they used to put a ring of lights around the airfields. And circular lights, what the aircraft were supposed to let, showed them where their airfield was and tried to keep within those bounds, because when they got really busy the aircraft, the sky was full of aircraft and the ring lights, the outer circle lights from Scampton came across the field I’m looking at now.
MS: Really?
HH: Right. Yeah. They weren’t too near. There was one near the bottom of the field. The cable was buried under the ground. Then another wooden pole stuck up with another light on near the road, just a few yards down from where we’re sitting now with another light on. That went all the way around the airfield.
MS: Really?
HH: And the light, and when when, when they got started taking off seriously for the raids these lights would come on and we would know then that they, ok, watch out the engines are warming up. There’s going, soon going to be a bit of action.
MS: So literally just down the road from here, there was one of the lights for Fiskerton.
HH: Yes. Yes. Only, only [pause] yeah, a hundred yards down the road.
MS: Ok.
HH: But and, and the next one was just past where those trees are. Well, it’s no good me saying that there but near the, just this side the Witham.
MS: Yeah.
HH: But still, but still in this field what I’m looking at now straight across. I’m looking north now from my house.
MS: We don’t, we don’t realise how close we are to Fiskerton, sitting on the other side of the river.
HH: No. No. Fiskerton was our nearest aircraft soi, our, our nearest airfield so we, we was always interested in, in what was going on and any action that they would send. They would send anything ten to fifteen aircraft up on a raid when they were busy.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And my father and I, as I say we lived next door to where we are now. We would stand. He used to have a saying, ‘Boy, now boy, we’ll have to go out and see if there’s anything happening tonight.’ And we’d go out, see if any of the aircraft was warming up, which we could hear, and we would stand against our gate on the Fen Road here and, and watch them take off night after night after night. That was when they had got started doing the major raids.
MS: Yeah.
HH: On Germany. The most outstanding one that I can remember experience was the, well the famous Dambuster raids. Now, that night my father had been out. It was obviously a May night so it was a pleasant night and he kept saying, ‘There’s nothing happening tonight boy,’ he says, ‘There’s nothing warming up.’ And then about 9 o’clock or just before we could hear Scampton, and Scampton even though it’s what seven, seven, six seven mile away as the, well I was going to say —
MS: As the crow flies.
HH: As the crow flies. As the Lancasters fly.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. We can hear them, hear them very easy. Still can the Red Arrows and people like, aeroplanes like that and he come in and he says, ‘They’re warming up at Scampton,’ he says, ‘But there’s only them. There’s only them warming up.’ Anyway, we waited, and about twenty past nineish they started to take off and we, we counted eighteen take off. We could hear each aircraft take off. It was as plain, in fact we could see them because it was a May night, and it hadn’t obviously got dark and we could see them circling. But apparently, I think there was, well nineteen aircraft, but that doesn’t matter. We counted eighteen, you know as close as that, and I always remember my father he said, he said, ‘We shall have to listen to the wireless.’ Not a radio. ‘We shall have to listen to the wireless in the morning.’ He says, ‘There’s something a bit special on tonight.’ And of course, then it came out that, that the dams had been breached like.
MS: On the Ruhr.
HH: But previous, just previous to that, there was these aircraft flying about, Lancasters with a peculiar shape underneath them, and they were carrying the dummy, the dummy bouncing bombs, and of course we didn’t know what they were, in. The bomb bays had been reconstructed hadn’t they to, to carry these —
MS: They put a ridge on.
HH: To carry these bombs you see.
MS: That’s right.
HH: But then of course it all came to light then after that what it was all about. So that, and that was possibly the one that sticks in my memory the most and [pause] seventy. No. Eighty four. No. When, when was it that the when the, when the Memorial Service was at Scampton?
MS: I don’t know.
HH: Seventy years after it was [pause] well it, it would be four years ago, wouldn’t it?
MS: Yeah.
HH: And and, and they had this service at exactly the same time on the airfield as what they took off and I stood in the very same spot that night again and it all went through my mind. Yes. Seventy years on. So that’s how it was indelibly printed in my mind. The, possibly the, the other raid that stands out that the RAF did was the first one thousand bomber raid on Cologne. Now, again that was a, either a spring, it was light nights anyway, and, and it was in the days before we had got to many of the big aircraft so there was, anything that could fly was in the air that night. All the old Whitleys with the nose down. They always looked as though they was flying with the nose down the Whitleys. And the Wellingtons, they were a bit more pleasant aircraft to look at in shape. And the Hampdens and I don’t know if the Manchesters was involved in that one or not, but there weren’t too many of the, I don’t know think there was Lancs in the Cologne. I might be wrong there but there was a lot of the older aircraft involved in the, in the Cologne. I think that was just over a thousand bombers but it was classed as the first one thousand bomber raid and I remember it. We stood and the sky was, at one time well just full of aircraft. Full of it. It didn’t matter where you looked there was aircraft and, you know. That stands out in my mind as well. And then of course we never knew where they were going of course but the next day —
MS: You know they were going east.
HH: Well, yeah. Yeah. We, we knew they were going to Germany.
MS: Yeah.
HH: But I mean we didn’t know what the target was, and but then next morning they would say so many of our aircraft attacked the German city of Cologne and so many of our aircraft are missing. They never said how many aircrew were missing, which you times that. Well, as the raids went on later on with the Lancs you timed that by seven but that’s by the by.
MS: Yeah.
HH: But those are vivid memories. Vivid memories that I have of, of, of the aircraft taking off and the airfields around here. So, yeah, it does stand out in my mind very vividly.
MS: Ok. Did you, you were going to school during this time no doubt.
HH: Oh yeah. Yeah. I was Washingborough School for a start but when, when we’d got to well it would be the middle of the war’ish, for some reason or other we were, a lot of us were transferred from Washingborough School to what was St Andrews School in Lincoln then. There was a school near, down near the football ground, which later became Bishop King.
MS: Right.
HH: Which of course it isn’t there now. There is a Bishop King School there but it’s, they completely rebuilt school on the site of South Park.
MS: Yeah.
HH: But that’s where I went and of course we had, I can remember the air raid shelters that were built in the streets, in the cities. The brick air raid shelter. They actually built them in the streets you see. As they did, I suppose in all the town and cities.
MS: What? Sitting proud above the pavement.
HH: Oh yeah. Brick buildings. Brick buildings.
MS: As shelters.
HH: Air raid shelters. Yeah. Yeah. And when the air raid warning, the people just came out the houses and just went into these shelters. They had a very heavy concrete roof on them you see but even then they wouldn’t stand a direct hit and some, not in Lincoln, but in some of the places if the shelter got hit everybody was killed in it you see.
MS: Did you see? Did, sorry go on.
HH: Yeah. But we, we had, we had four or five of these brick shelters built at the end of our playground at, at school and we used to, and gas masks and all of a sudden, a bell used to sound and it used to be a practice. Practice. We used to have to put our gas masks on in little tins, get these gasmasks. Put them on and go, not run, we used to go in orderly fashion to go in to the air raid shelter. Practice to get in as quick as we could, you see. So that was, that was another thing that we used to have to do, yeah. You were going to ask me a question.
MS: No. You’ve covered it.
HH: Yeah. And —
MS: I was just going to ask you what sort of things you did.
HH: Well, I’ve gone on a bit quicker with the aircraft then I’ve got my notes down. My very, very first experience of enemy action was quite a frightening one, although I suppose I’ve maybe become more frightened of it in recent years than what I did at the time, and it was the 5th of November. Now, again I can’t remember the exact year but it was very early on in the war but my recollection is it was either a Messerschmitt 109 which was, I think they were single seater fighter.
MS: They were.
HH: Or a 110 which I think they had two in. They were more of a fighter bomber.
MS: Yeah.
HH: But it was dusk. Dusk. We’d come home from school obviously, my sister and I. Guy Fawkes night, the 5th of November, and in those days we used to go to the neighbours, ‘Please can you remember — ’and either get tuppence or threepence from them if you was lucky. And my mother says, ‘Right, we’ll, we’ll, I’ll go with you just down the road. We’re not going far because it will soon be dark and you never know what’s about.’ [laughs]
MS: No.
HH: All that sort of thing. And we’d only got, we’d been to one house. I think we’d got threepence from it each. Old money I’m talking about.
MS: The old.
HH: Not three P. The old twelve-sided threepenny bit.
MS: That’s right.
HH: Yeah. And, and we had just come out of the first house and was going out to the next and this enemy aircraft come quite low. We spotted it at, at the distance as soon as you could see it. It was very low, coming right up the line of the road, and I think it saw us but I think it only frightened us because it could have cleaned us up. And when it got within distance it fired. Da da da da da da. Fired at us and we could hear the, we were on the path this side of the road and we could hear the bullets going in the hedge the other side of the road and of course, it had gone.
MS: Really.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. So, we were fired. When I say we were fired at, I think, I still think to this day that that pilot saw us and he was having in his mind a little joke with us. You know. Because he could have cleaned us up like nobody’s business, couldn’t he? But of course, we only got threepence a piece that year because we [did a turtle] and come back like so, but that’s my very early —
MS: Was it worth threepence?
HH: And from then on.
MS: Yeah.
HH: I realised that there was danger involved. That there was danger involved. But that’s, that’s the nearest we got I think to enemy, enemy bullets like.
MS: Can I ask you a question? You know those bullets went in the hedge. Did you go looking for any bits or anything?
HH: No. No.
MS: No.
HH: Because, well we, well they’ll still be there somewhere but how far would they go in? And I don’t, don’t even know what size they would be like.
MS: No.
HH: They would only be small. Well, bullets I suppose. They wouldn’t be shells as such because they didn’t explode like. But yeah, I’ll always remember. They rattled. They rattled in that hedge that’s always been there in my lifetime. We could hear them hitting the hedge all right and of course the noise from the, from the da da da da da ever so quick like. But that, that, that was the nearest we got to being shot at during the war.
MS: What was your mother’s reaction?
HH: Well, petrified because she, she realised what could have happened where, well I didn’t particularly. They just fired at us and that was it like. But —
MS: You were still a school child.
HH: We could have all been dead.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And, and I think if that, I still think to this day if that German pilot hadn’t have been human we would have been.
MS: Yeah.
HH: But he was human and if I’m right what I’m thinking I’m grateful to him. Anyway, carrying on, after that we did come across quite a lot of firing because, and machine gunning because when the aircraft were coming back after the raids they would be followed in by, they’d get mixed up with especially, especially the Messerschmitts, when the Messerschmitt 109s got going like, and they would sort of get behind them, and they couldn’t always detect that they was mixed up with enemy aircraft in those days you see.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And occasionally you would, you would get one, one of our planes fired on by a Messerschmitt you see. And then of course you would hear him dive off and he would be gone somewhere else. This would be the early hours of the morning when they was coming back and things like that, because obviously the lights were on. They would have the tip lights on.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Wing tip lights on. And these circular lights which I’ve been talking about. They would be on as well and there would be certain lights on at the airfield. So, it wasn’t completely dark but so it was easy for, for some of these aircraft just to come in and make a nuisance of themselves and occasionally they would. I can’t remember any specific incidents of them shooting aircraft down but they did get them. They did get some like in different parts of the places.
MS: There was one in Waddington.
HH: Yeah.
MS: Wasn’t there?
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
MS: And at Whisby I think.
HH: Apparently, the story goes that one actually followed one of our planes in and went along the runway and fired at him and then took off again on the runway. Whether that’s right or not, but of course you heard all sorts of stories. Yeah. But crashes, of course. We, we got a few crashes, and the biggest, and it did frighten me this one. It was the Christmas, and, and I can’t remember the exact year and I can’t find a proper detailed account of it except 1942, but were the Lancasters flying in 1942?
MS: Do you know, I don’t know exactly.
HH: No.
MS: But I suspect they were.
HH: That’s, that’s what confuses me because I’ve got it in a book where two Lancasters crashed and it tallies with what happened. One from number 9 Squadron which was based at Bardney. I can’t remember the other squadron but I think it was, it was a Waddington aircraft and they collided just slightly south of Washingborough village and one crashed, well, in the parish of Heighington just west of Heighington village and south of Washingborough village. Apparently, the aircraft, one of the aircraft it, it blew up in mid-air and I’m not sure where. They would be a big lump of it come down even though it did blow up but my memory of that was, it was the Christmas. It was the Sunday before. It was the Sunday night before Christmas as Christmas was on the Wednesday that year. Now, if it was, I think it was maybe ’43, but I’ve seen it in the book where it was ’42 but it was early, middle of the war when the raids were —
MS: Yeah.
HH: When the, when our bombers were doing the heavy raids like. And my father and my mother and my sister and I we were walking up past the school at Washingborough. School Lane. And we were going to meet my grandma and grandad which lived in the village. This would be quarter past five time because there was a Carol Service on at the Chapel that evening and we were all going to it. But anyway, while we were going up the aircraft were taking off which, ’Oh, look at that one dad,’ and, ‘Look at that one dad.’ And all of a sudden — bang. There was this hell of an explosion and there was bits of burning aircraft, well, all over the place for, well maybe a mile each way around us like. It just blew up. Full stop. And my memory of that is one of the aircraft, its wing had just come off and the aircraft spiralled down. The Lanc, they were two Lancasters, and it spiralled down, and I could nearly put a stake in, in where it landed. I can tell you within a few yards of where it actually crashed in, in the field.
MS: Where? Where was that from here? How far away?
HH: A mile.
MS: Yeah.
HH: No more than a mile.
MS: What roughly, what time was this? Roughly what time was this in the evening?
HH: This would be then, well half past five time. Yeah. Half past five time. 5.30. And it had been down a few minutes when, well when I say its bomb load there was a massive explosion. Whether it’s his petrol tanks or its bomb load but it was it was quite, quite a big explosion to what we people were used to.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And we, my dad and I, my mother and my sister had gone on to my grandmother’s because they were frightened but my dad and I were stood watching it. We couldn’t actually see it because there was a little bit of a dip but the plume of black smoke come up and of course the sky was alight with the fire and things like that, and this explosion occurred. Enough for us. We could feel, we could feel the impact of the movement of air. Now, when we came, eventually came back home the Carol Service anyway was cancelled that night because it had just simply upset everybody in the village because as you can imagine people realised that fourteen souls had perished literally in a flash.
MS: Yeah.
HH: But when we came home, back to where, next door to where I’m living now the windows, our front windows which is on the opposite side to where the plane had crashed had been blown in. The glass was in, in the room.
MS: Right.
HH: And the theory, the theory that we were told was that it was a curvature of the way the blast goes and it was sucking it back or something. I don’t understand it but that’s what we were told. But whatever it was the glass was inside the room where we would have thought it would have been the ones facing the crash that would have been. But it wasn’t. That was the mysterious part about it.
MS: Explosions.
HH: So that, that was and I’ve, I’ve spoken a time or two to people but I can’t seem to get through. I would like some sort of a monument put on that gate.
MS: For those guys.
HH: But of course, it would all have to be researched properly and stuff like that to get the proper —
MS: Is it, is it just a field where they landed? It didn’t land on houses. It landed in a field.
HH: No. No. It was an open field.
MS: That was lucky.
HH: The only damage that was done was where bits of the property as had bits come down and the explosion. Yeah. It was in open fields. The nearest, well the nearest houses would only be a couple of hundred yards away. I don’t quite know what happened to them but it didn’t blow them down or anything like that.
MS: So just to try and establish roughly where it was, right. We’re sitting in Washingborough at the moment so it was on the south side of Washingborough.
HH: It was on the south side. It was almost equidistant between Washingborough and Branston.
MS: Right.
HH: Well, no more than, no more than a half a mile, less than half a mile west of Heighington.
MS: Right.
HH: So that would give you a good location on a map.
MS: Yeah. And did you go and have a look at the site of that crash at all?
HH: We went as far as we could because, but the road that went down past it was closed for a week because there was all sorts of —
MS: Yeah.
HH: Well, still, still things exploding. Ammunition and things like that, you see. But it, it was, well I don’t know. It just seemed to pass I suppose. Any salvaging they could find they did it and there was quite a bit of activity down there with RAF, you know. People down there and clearing things up and things like that and then the road was opened and you just got on with the rest of the war in those days.
MS: Yeah.
HH: But I did hear. I did hear a story where the farmer that it belonged to had sheep in the field at the time and he got permission, he got permission to go look see what had happened to his field either the next day, or a couple of days later. Which of course there I think somebody from the RAF escorted him down there and the story goes that although he was a very country hard sort of a farmer man, nothing bothered him, he hadn’t been in the field much when he saw a fella’s leg, and he passed out.
MS: Right.
HH: Now, how true that story is I don’t know but I have heard, I’ve heard several people say that they picked parts of bodies up so that was the extent of the —
MS: Yeah.
HH: Hand. Hand. Somebody had found an hand or something like that and it, like I say, you just that as a boy my age that was part of life in those days that things happened like that. Of course, I’ve come to terms with it more since. Realised the seriousness of it. But every Christmas now, and on the Sunday evening before Christmas it comes back to me and I think now somewhere in the world because there might have been Canadians on it, people like that somewhere in the world there’s a relative thinking, it’s so many years tonight since. Maybe still got a sister left, a daughter. My uncle, since he got killed. They wouldn’t know where he had been killed but I remember that. Every Christmas I remember. That’s how implanted it is on my mind. Things like that.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
MS: You’re remembering. That’s one thing.
HH: Sorry?
MS: You’re remembering. That’s good.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because while this is not relevant to what we’re talking about, I have an uncle who I’m named after, Uncle Harold. He was killed in the First World War at [Pernes] on the 8th of August 1918. So it was a hundred years a week or two back since he lost his life, and my eldest daughter which lives at Cherry Willingham her and I went. His name’s on the War Memorial at Potterhanworth, so her and I went out and put a memorial plaque on there and a thing in the churchyard. So, there’s certainly people, the point I’m saying that is there’s, there’s people about now that still remember relatives from the First World War, isn’t there? Very much so.
MS: There are.
HH: A lot of them.
MS: That’s right.
HH: Daughters and, and, granddaughters, and nephews and nieces. Yeah. If I, if I have a nephew, as a nephew can remember my uncle from the First World War there’s certainly plenty from the Second World War.
MS: Oh yeah.
HH: Yeah. But, yeah that’s, other things I can remember from the bombing point of view was we had some bombs dropped near us one, well it was, it was 9 o’clock one evening. I can’t remember what month it was but it was dark so it would obviously be in the back end of the winter months not far from where we are now and there was three explosions. Quite loud explosions. Not enough to do any damage. And again, I could take you. I could, I could simply put a stake in where that bomb landed because as you know when something explodes and turns all the subsoil up and that it’s never quite the same colour again. That’s, that’s why from years ago you can find out where places have been built on. There’s been excavations.
MS: That’s true.
HH: And things like that. But there were certainly two this side the river. Two bombs dropped this side the river and the other dropped, we’re not quite sure where. It must have been possibly got across the river. But the aircraft apparently was travelling from the south towards the north and the theory, I don’t know how true these facts are. Well, they’re maybe not facts. They’re just what people were saying at the time, that the enemy aircraft spotted the, possibly spotted a train which the railway line was still there. Bardney railway line was still there and, and the fire that if, if the fellow opened the fire box to stoke they could see the fire. Or, or any light related and if they saw any lights, they would just drop his bombs. That’s the theory of that. There was no other reason to drop bombs but then again, they was in the field and they didn’t do any harm.
MS: So, where we’re sitting now on Fen Road and the case of the recorder, we are literally a field away from the river, aren’t we?
HH: Yes.
MS: So, it’s fallen between this house and the river.
HH: Yeah. But it’s a half a mile down the road, to the east of where we’re —
MS: Right.
HH: Sitting now.
MS: Towards the Bardney direction.
HH: Yes. In the Bardney direction.
MS: I see. And, and, the point you’re making is, is that the, it’s really in open countryside, so that’s —
HH: Very much so.
MS: So that’s why you, you talked about the railway.
HH: Yeah.
MS: I understand it fully.
HH: Yeah. And again, it didn’t do any damage at all. But of course, another significant night when there was, was when the landmines, two landmines [coughs] excuse me, were dropped at Waddington. Now, one hit the village. Now, again the story goes that it hit the church, or dropped very very close to the church and whilst it did quite extensive damage in the village they say if it had dropped in a more open part of the village it could have destroyed the village. It was that intense.
MS: Really?
HH: And it completely collapsed the church and it fell, it fell in such a way that it didn’t scatter the, it didn’t scatter the stones very much at all, and I’ve seen a picture that was taken from the air. It was just, the debris was just laid on the ground in the shape of the church, of a cross. Like a church is with a, yeah, that. But that, but the, the other landmine it, it dropped on the camp at Waddington. On the airfield, and it was, in those days apparently there was a lot of WAAFs at Waddington parachute packing, administration and all that sort of thing. Whatever the WAAFs did. And, and if you had a friend that was in aircrew you watched them take off from a distance and then you went to the NAAFI and waited ‘til them coming back which obviously a camp like Waddington there was quite a lot of people involved. And they were in the NAAFI Club waiting for them to come back and this landmine hit the NAAFI. Killed the lot of them. And the, the manageress of the NAAFI, I suppose that’s the right term at that time was a lady called Miss Raven, and after the war there was a, a club built there and they called it the Raven Club and apparently that’s why they called it the Raven Club.
MS: I used to be there and I didn’t know that was the reason for the name. Yeah.
HH: Really? Well, that’s the story I’ve heard.
MS: Oh right.
HH: And, but what was significant to me as a boy was my father was then in, in the building trade.
MS: Yeah.
HH: He used to be. And him with quite a lot more was sent up to Waddington. And he was one that was sent on the camp to clear the mess up from the NAAFI.
MS: Yeah.
HH: The next day. And I always remember him coming home quite late into the evening and he couldn’t eat his tea because he’d been pulling young women’s bodies out. And he was literally sick. It had upset him to that extent, and I always remember him saying, ‘You know somebody’s lost some lovely daughters last night.’ That, that sticks in my memory quite vividly because it did upset my father that did. Another occasion he had to clear up bomb damage was, the Nurses Home at Lincoln County Hospital was hit one Sunday afternoon by a single bomb and it killed, it killed one of the, one of the matrons that was in at the time. I don’t think it killed anybody else but one of the matrons. She got killed. And the, and the next day him and a lot more of the men from William Wright’s as he worked for in those days, they had the job of going to, well if you call tidying the mess up as you, you do. You just don’t leave it. Clearing it all up and reinstating it the best way they could like. So, he was involved in quite a bit of that work and he did work, he did work at Scampton, Waddington Aerodrome for long periods putting dispersals points in for the Lancasters to sit on. You know what I mean by that.
MS: I do. I’ve sat on one myself.
HH: Yeah [laughs]
MS: Yeah.
HH: And he did that. He worked a lot there. And then when the war had finished he was still working there and, and him and another fella had the job of taking some of the blackouting sheets down from out the hangars and apparently they’d screwed these boards up, or whatever they were with black Japan screws. And I can always remember my dad had a great big tin of these black Japan screws that he brought home and I’ve of course, and I’ve still maybe some in my shed. I know I had at one time because I used to hoard stuff what my dad had had, and when he died I put stuff, but they was in the tins, and some of the tins I couldn’t get the lid off because they had rusted on, so they had to go. But I had, I certainly had black Japan screws from Waddington Aerodrome and used them.
MS: Yeah.
HH: For quite a while. Little stories like that.
MS: Yeah.
HH: You know.
MS: Connections.
HH: Beautiful little stories.
MS: Yeah.
HH: There’s one story that I’m going to tell you about but not too much detail and it’s about the Dambusters and Guy Gibson.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Because where he was billeted the people, well it’ll be the grandchildren I suppose now still live at the place and I don’t think they want it banded about too much that Guy Gibson was there during the Dambuster raid. So I’m just going to say I was at a place where the wing commander was stationed during his time while he was training for the raids at Scampton because as, as most of us know 617 Squadron wasn’t a Scampton based squadron. They was Woodhall weren’t they?
MS: Sure.
HH: They was at Scampton because of the dams and it was convenient for them to exercise and practice and what not from there and Gibson, Gibson, Guy, the wing commander, I’ll be respectful to him, he was based at this place in, well in Brattleby. I’ll go no further than that and I worked, I worked on that property after the war, 1947 when I got started to work. And I’ve handled and walked on the same places as the wing commander. And we were clearing. Clearing quite a bit of stuff out because the, the lady where he was, where we was billeted the lady was living in the house at the same time. A biggish house it was and if Guy Gibson’s, if the wing commander’s name was mentioned she said, ‘Don’t mention that name to me. I hated the fellow. I couldn’t bear him. He’s, he’s ruined my property,’ because he had, he has carved his initials or his name on all sorts of places in the house in the oak. On the oak panelling, on the architraves and things like that. Guy Gibson. All over the place it was carved. On window frames —
MS: Really?
HH: Because we know he was eccentric, wasn’t he?
MS: Yeah, he was. He was a vandal [laughs].
HH: Now, there was a, there was a rod reared up on one of the staircases. A rod with a brass hook on top what you used to use for opening windows. You know the type of thing I mean.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And I, I picked up and this the lady was there and, and I says, ‘Gibson’s name is on it.’ ‘Get rid of it, Put it on the bonfire. Put it on the bonfire.’ Which we did. I wish thousands of times I’d said to her, ‘Can I take it?’ You know what I mean?
MS: Yes.
HH: I was handling stuff.
MS: You’re always wise afterwards.
HH: I was burning stuff that the wing commander, ok if somebody would have said to me, ‘Can you prove it was him?’ Which I couldn’t, but I knew it was. But that was the connection.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Indirect connection I had with Guy Gibson. And also, she told me a story, this lady’s told me this story. She was very eccentric as well and she used to play the church organ. And, and she sometimes used to go in to the church any time during the hours of darkness. Anytime. 3 o’clock in the morning.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Something like that, and have a tune on this organ and she, she says, she says, ‘Guy Gibson wasn’t as brave,’ and this is how she used to talk to him, he wasn’t, ‘Gibson,’ she used to address him as. ‘He wasn’t as brave as they made him out to be. I frightened him. I frightened the life out of him.’ And she’d tell me a nice little story. He came, he came home a couple of nights off the practice raids and there was music in the church at Brattleby, and curiosity got the better of him. And he came home, again being on the practice 3 o’clock in the morning according to her timing she said and his curiosity got the better of him and he couldn’t understand why the music was playing at that time and he came, she says, ‘I heard the doors go at the back and I peeped around.’ She said, ‘It was me playing the organ. Me playing the organ.’ she said, ‘I see Gibson and I thought to myself oh get off, get off back to bed. It’s time you was in bed.’ That sort of talk, you see, she says and the next morning, ‘He spoke to me,’ he says, ‘I think you’ve a ghost in your church.’ He says, ‘I peeped in last night, I could hear the music and there was a figure there in a white robe.’ She was in her bed gear, a white robe playing the organ. She said, ‘I never let on. I never let on.’ Isn’t it a lovely story that?
MS: Oh yes.
HH: Yeah. But that’s my, as you like indirect, indirect connection with Guy Gibson so I don’t feel all that far apart from him. I’ve walked on the ground where he’s walked you see.
MS: And you’ve handled something he’s vandalised [laughs]
HH: And I’ve handed things he’s handled. Yeah. Yeah. Much to the disliking of the person whose property it was, you see. Things like that. Yeah. So, and then as the, well as the war progressed of course, round here we got a small unit, a small Army unit with a searchlight in the field at the back of where the school is now. And then, and one anti-aircraft gun. And apparently the searchlight was quite a strong one. I don’t know. They, they used to seem to say that these searchlights worked in groups and they sort of had a leader one and it was a very, very powerful searchlight, and I can remember you know, if, if there was a raid if, if there was enemy aircraft about the sky would then get lit up with these searchlights, and I’ve seen a few, few enemy aircraft in the beam. They had a job to get out of them hadn’t they because one light would.
MS: Yeah.
HH: They would have several lights on them, you see.
MS: Yeah, coned.
HH: There were, well I, I should think you’ll know what, seen searchlights haven’t you, and they’re very powerful beams straight up you know.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Aren’t they? Wonderful lights. They all had their own generators of course. Yeah. But they were a wonderful thing during the war searchlights was. And yeah, some of the, some of the lads that was in the Army in Washingborough in fact one of them, one of the, one of lads, he married a Washingborough girl and he stayed here after the war and he used to run the football team which I played for like. And things like that and, but yeah it, it, was all things come back to your mind. You see and of course as, as the airfields got around here even from Fiskerton, some of the airmen would, they would come over the ferry. There was a ferry at Fiskerton, down Five Mile Lane.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Which is straight up a set, where the airfield was. They would come over that and they would go to either Heighington to the pubs or come up here. And they would, they’d come trotting up to the pub, four or five or more of them, or some of them on bikes, you see. They would come on bikes to the pubs and things like that, and here you would, well I, I wasn’t in the pubs at that time but used to have a chat to them if they had time as they were going past and things like that, you see.
MS: Many Americans?
HH: We didn’t see, the Americans were mainly at Waddington. The Fortresses. So, we didn’t come into contact with, with the Americans. Not, not, not here. No. But of course, when they came over and started to do their bombing they was mainly the daylight lads you see. So, when our aircraft had come back and got settled down then during the morning the big Americans, the B47s, the Flying Fortresses as they called them they would, they would start taking off. So there was always loads and loads of action, and then as the time went on and we were beginning to get a real grip on the war, and we was preparing for Arnhem in particular. There was airborne squadron based at [pause] oh, Leadenham. That’s not quite the right name.
MS: Metheringham.
HH: No. Not Metheringham. One of the airfields up between Leadenham and Navenby on the top, and Wellingore area.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And, and out there. And the Americans that come over there as well, and they were practicing with the Dakotas and the gliders you see. And, and all, all we knew was that these Dakotas started to appear and then they would be pulling the gliders because they’d take off, you know they didn’t leave it while the actual time, they was practicing with them and things and we’d see these aircraft flying all over the place pulling, pulling another aeroplane as we used to call it like in those days. Of course, we, we didn’t know what was going on of course, because things was kept secret naturally. They had to be, didn’t they?
MS: Yeah.
HH: And we just had to wait ‘til, and then, and then all of a sudden it just went quiet, and then within a couple of days we heard that, you know there had been a major parachute landing at Arnhem of course. And then a similar thing happened pre D-Day. You see, although we didn’t see quite so much action —
MS: Are you ok?
HH: Round here pre D-Day because it was mainly down the south with the little boats and things like that but we did see a lot of the action that was being practiced with the, with the paratroopers and the aircraft pre D-Day.
MS: Can I ask you a question? I just saw you stand up then. Are you comfortable? Do you need to carry on or do you want a break?
HH: No. I’m alright. I’m alright.
MS: Are you sure?
HH: Yeah. Yeah. I’m thinking about your time as well.
MS: No. You’re ok. I just want to make sure you’re ok.
HH: And, and then of course as the, as the war went on and, and the raids got far more intense it, it became all Lancaster around here then. We, we had a fright. A fright one night. I remember it vividly. FIDO.
MS: Ah, FIDO.
HH: FIDO. Fiskerton. FIDO.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And we didn’t know what had happened but apparently they’d put these strips of pipes either side of the runway at, at Fiskerton, the main runway at Fiskerton and filled them full of petrol and they were apparently testing them. It was early evening, but obviously dark. Winter’s night, and we were looking out for anything that might be of interest to watch and it flared up from one length of the airfield to the other. We couldn’t work it out. Why is the airfield on fire? And people were obviously ringing the services up and things like that and they, they knew about it of course but we, we never got any feedback. Well, we hadn’t a phone ourselves. We just didn’t know what was happening. But then it eventually came out that it was for, you know when the weather was bad to enable the —
MS: For nights.
HH: Because previous to that there had been one particularly bad night when they’d gone on a raid and the weather had closed in before they got back, and the fog had clamped down. And, and they, Lincolnshire was covered in, in, in this fog and they couldn’t find the airfields and there was quite a lot crashed that night. And even though they tried to talk them down they weren’t really successful. I think they had to abort to some of the airfields where it was clearer.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Mainly down south and things like that. But that was a bad night and that obviously provoked them into doing things to try and enable them but then, yeah. Fiskerton. If it was a bad night they was to light FIDO and we used to get loads of aircraft coming in. Loads of them coming in of course from the other airfields around about. Why they chose Fiskerton and not one of the bigger airfields like when there was Scampton, but that was so be it. That’s what they did like. And after, after the war the firm I worked for apparently, they were two inch diameter pipes with little holes drilled in them at intervals for the petrol to squirt out. Perfect for scaffolding. Steel pipes perfect for scaffolding. The firm I worked for, William Wright’s had the job of dismantling it. They cut them up in to sections and kept it and I used a lot of it for scaffolding.
MS: Really?
HH: For years after that, yeah.
MS: How big was the —
HH: Before the light scaffolding came into use.
MS: Yeah. How big were the holes?
HH: Well, no more than a, well I’m going to say well I’m going to say in old money maybe an eighth of an inch maybe.
MS: Ok.
HH: Maybe not even that.
MS: So, it was pressurised.
HH: Oh yeah. It was pressurised and squirted you see.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And they must have got a heck a lot of, I don’t know how they got pressurised you know, to get from. Maybe be boosted you see.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Things like that. But it was equal. Equal flames either side the runway for the length of the runway and apparently it used, it used a lot of petrol. In fact, I think I’ve read where one night it used eighteen thousand gallons of petrol in one night.
MS: Wow.
HH: Which, but then I mean if you’re going to save a few Lancasters from crashing it pays for itself because petrol wouldn’t have been ever so expensive in them days, would it?
MS: No.
HH: I suppose.
MS: It would be rare though. You’d, you know —
HH: Well, yeah. I, I mean what sort of petrol were used. Whether, different grades, but I shouldn’t suppose they would use the same stuff as they put in the bombers because it was a bit specialised I would have thought.
MS: I genuinely don’t know.
HH: No. I don’t know, but that’s what they used apparently. Petrol. And all things, I mean I don’t know the details why they used that, or why they couldn’t use say diesel or something but they didn’t according to the readings, and but as I say that’s my connection. We, we had things that was used in the war. And —
MS: Made use, you what do they call it? Upcycling.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And, and also using stuff as well, you’ll probably laugh at this but it’s a fact, when aircraft crashed like the one I mentioned down the sheep wash, you could find bits of aircraft all over the place. Of course, where these houses are now was all open fields and we used to walk about with my dogs picking a rabbit up for dinner because it was, always made a good dinner rabbit did in them days, you see. And you would pick bits of aircraft up like bits of fuselage, and if it was not too big to carry it home you would bring it home, and if it was reasonably straight and things like that and, and of course we kept pigs as most people did in these villages in Lincolnshire at those times and we used to get rats gnawing through the boards and things like that, and if we had any bits of rotten boards around the bottom, we would nail a bit of Lancaster around. Things like that. Never thought any more of it, like you know. And, and another —
MS: Have you still got any left?
HH: No. Unfortunately, no. No. That’s where I made a mistake. If I’d have been, I know, I know as you’ve just said it’s wise in hindsight, I regret that I’d not kept a more detailed. If I’d kept a diary.
MS: Yeah.
HH: A daily diary right from the days when I could start to write it would have been extremely interesting now. Not just for the war but the rest of my life. But I didn’t. Full stop. All I’ve got is what stored in my mind you see. I had, I had loads and loads of books during the war, and magazines used to come out. But I got rid of them all and again I regret. I regret that now, you see. And, but yeah, it was a good say, you could also pick pieces of, well we called it Perspex, but it was like the stuff round the windscreens and things but you could, you could, you could hot your poker in the fire because we had open fires and pokers in them days, just simply push it through like. Then you could smooth it off a bit, and then cut it out and make a ring of it. Loads of, loads of the gals in the village used to ring, ring something what they’d made out of aircraft. We used to call it Perspex. I don’t know if that was the right name but what had been blown out the sky. Yeah. All sorts of things lying around. Ok, it became dangerous to pick stuff up because then the Germans started dropping, well dummies. Dummy bombs, didn’t they? Grimsby for instance. They dropped, they dropped stuff on there one night and they looked like pens and things, and if you picked them up they exploded. Blew your hand off.
MS: [unclear] yeah.
HH: Which a lot of people —
MS: Yeah.
HH: And especially kids got, well they got injured for life with picking these. Picking these things up. So you had to be very careful what you picked up. Another thing that used to be banded about a lot was occasionally a German aircraft would come over dropping leaflets, propaganda leaflets telling us how well they was, going on and how bad our army was doing abroad and how the cities was thriving in Germany and how our cities was getting bombed that we didn’t hear about, and you know, put doubts in your mind. Again, I should have saved some of that. And then, and then our own aircraft. Was it our own aircraft used to come and drop this foil, strips of foil?
MS: Chaff. Chaff they used to call it.
HH: Did you call it?
MS: Chaff and Windows.
HH: Yeah. Window. Window.
MS: Window. Yeah.
HH: Silver paper strips if you like.
MS: That’s it.
HH: Stronger than that to, well, it used to interfere with the radios didn’t it?
MS: Yeah.
HH: And things like that. What was it ours that did that?
MS: We, we used it. Definitely. I don’t know if the Germans did.
HH: No. No. No.
MS: But it was to fool night fighters.
HH: There was a reason. But we used to pick that up. It used to be all over the place sometimes. Blowing all over the place it did like. Yeah. And then of course, Stenigot. They had their, was it a ray [pause] was it radar in them days? System with the big dishes on.
MS: Yeah.
HH: The dishes are still there but they’re laid in the field at Stenigot. I don’t know if you’ve —
MS: Are they? Oh, right.
HH: Unless they’ve been moved over the last year or two. They might have been.
MS: Oh yeah. Well.
HH: But they were taken down and they were laid there for ages and in fact there was only a bit on the television one night this week about Stenigot, and the radar station there because they found that they’d taken a drone over it and found places where there was underground stuff that they didn’t know about.
MS: Right. You’ve got me interested.
HH: But that’s the by the by —
MS: It’s all interesting but that’s of particular interest to me. Yeah.
HH: Oh right. Yeah. And then, and then as I say I’ve, I’ve done the glider. Oh, and as the war went on we, we, and especially leading up to D-Day for some, some reason or other leading up to D-Day we got a lot of Army activity round here. Convoys. There would be convoys and they’d be going past for, for at least half an hour, you know. A lot of trucks.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And, and sometimes they would come past in the dark. I think they was practising. I think they was mainly practice before they took off down south to get on the boats, and apparently the trucks, of course you didn’t have anybody that had cars or vehicles. You didn’t have headlights on them of course. Well, you did but they was very very well camouflaged and you could only see a little bit of road. But these convoys they didn’t. They didn’t, they had a spotlight. You maybe know this. On the front of the —
MS: No.
HH: On the front of the wagon when they were in convoys they had a light underneath, we’ll say underneath the front wheels and on the back of the vehicle in front there would be a white disc underneath and, and the idea was that light you just followed that white disc so from the air you could, in theory you couldn’t see anything.
MS: How clever.
HH: Yeah. It was clever.
MS: I had no idea.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MS: Right.
HH: That was the Army that was.
MS: Yeah. The Air Force must have thought of it [yeah]
H: Well, of course they would [laughs] Yeah. Like they did with the dams.
MS: Yeah.
HH: When, when the commander was at the Palladium watching that. That was that original story. Whether it was true or not some people are denying that now. But anyway, it worked, didn’t it?
MS: Yeah.
HH: I would have liked to have seen. I always wanted to visit the dams but I don’t think I shall get across to them now. But generally speaking that’s how it was. And then as I got, I left school at fourteen I was the last group of pupils to leave at fourteen. Then it went up to fifteen, school leaving age and of course it’s gone up to well some of them are thirty now before they leave [laughs] And I left at fourteen and I worked. I was waiting to go in to the building trade, but couldn’t get in straight away and whilst I was waiting I went and got a job down on a farm at Branston Booths.
MS: Just down the road.
HH: Yeah. Which would be significant in a minute I’m telling you too. Now, Branston Booths, it’s all wide-open country in those Fens and, and this would be, well 1947 that would be, I think. When I left school. ’47. No, it might have been even earlier than that. ’46. Fourteen. Yeah. It would be. Yeah. It was, it was earlier than that because the prisoners of war. The German prisoners of war were still here, and there was a German prisoner of war camp at, well it was Potterhanworth but it was nearer Branston Booths than Potterhanworth.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Right. And they used to come out and work on the farms the prisoners did, and I worked with them with the other fellas of course and obviously they were, well to us they were Germans but they were decent chaps. They were a lot of them poor fellas had no family left. They had nowhere to go back to because we’d cleaned their properties out like but having said that they never, they never come across, they worked with us as ordinary people. You know what I mean?
MS: Yes.
HH: Never come across that they were our enemy or vice versa, but we worked down in the fields at, at Branston Booths. Now, during the war there was a dummy airfield there.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And a dummy airfield probably you’ll know was just something to distract any planes that were coming over that were looking for targets.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And there was a, when I say a dugout it was partly in the ground and a bit of a construction and the rest of it was buried in the soil that they’d dug out. And apparently it was manned by about three or four people at a time and they would construct these well, from the air they looked like aircraft and they would place them at strategical points in these fields. And also, if there was an enemy aircraft about, they would discreetly, accidentally light one of them up. And, and, and many and many a time my dad and I, we’ve said, ‘Oh, they’re bombing the Booths tonight. They would see these and you could hear, because they would be maybe two aircraft, maybe one aircraft come up later on in the war just to annoy us like.
MS: Yeah.
HH: When we’d got the better of them. But they, they would just be looking for anything to drop the bombs anywhere. Anyway, you would hear them circle and you could nearly feel what, what the pilots and the aircrew were, oh there’s a light down there. Right. Oh, an aircraft. You know, you could read their mind. They would circle down and then you could hear the bombs. They would drop the bombs like and then and then these, these people that were manning it they had, they had a method of lighting some fires which made it look as though they had been doing. Oh, and they would blast the hell out of it until the bomb bay was empty you see and, but they might, I oftens wonder how many bombs there are in those fields that didn’t actually explode because —
MS: It's very soft.
HH: The ground is very soft down there, and they’d go down but I’ve never heard of any incidents.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Or anybody finding them but they wouldn’t plough as deep as that like. But that was, that was a dummy airfield and I’ve worked on that and I’ve worked with the, with the German prisoners of war. And I worked with one later on, later on he had stopped here because he’d nowhere to go back, but he was, he was a Nazi. Nazi. Self-confessed Nazi and he was a nasty man, and he used to delight in telling us the story he was in the building trade with us but he used to have a way of telling stories to upset us. Even way after the war on how he had raped women and how he had tortured people and horrible stories like that and I refused to work with him. I said, ‘No. I’m not working with a character like that.’ I said, ‘It shouldn’t be allowed.’ But, and the foreman he kept him from me like but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t work with him because he was one of these he’d been in the Nazi youth and he’d had it imprinted in his mind that if you wasn’t a true German. You was —
MS: Nobody.
HH: You was vermin.
MS: Yeah.
HH: To them, anybody else was vermin that wasn’t a German, and we were to him and yet we were giving him a job. But I, I wouldn’t tolerate him.
MS: When was this? What years was this?
HH: This would be, this would be later on. 19 — this would be, oh after I was married. ’57 time. 1957.
MS: Really? As late as that.
HH: Yeah. And of course, he was still there and he never got it out of his mind you see. And yet our people, well I suppose from a human rights point of view they didn’t have to drop to the level that he was suppose if you look at it like that and they employed him. But he was a nasty character. I’d never trust him. I always thought if he got you on his own and he could do something nasty like. That’s how I felt about him, and [pause] But another connection, well just coming back to, to the action during the war and following the flight of that airship which I mentioned early.
MS: Oh yeah.
HH: The infamous Coventry raid when Coventry was —
MS: Oh yeah.
HH: And it was.
MS: Flattened.
HH: Terrible. That was, that was the, I think that was the first major raid of any consequence. London had, London had got it but they’d done the docks and that, hadn’t they in London mainly. But they had, they had gone for residential in Coventry a lot as well and, and when they bombed Coventry it was, it provoked us into doing something more drastic over there didn’t it? In to Germany. And it was a moonlight night, and again my dad and I were against at the gate and a he said, a lot of aircraft started coming up this route, and they were enemy aircraft. We could see them. A moonlight night. We could see the crosses on them, and the Swastikas and things like that and not, not all that high. They weren’t particularly low but they were well visible.
MS: Yeah. Sure.
HH: And they were coming up. I don’t know for how long but it seemed ages in to the night. Of course, we didn’t know where they were going except when they got to Lincoln they were heading more south rather than north and my dad said, ‘The Midlands are getting it tonight lad.’ He said, ‘Somebody down there. Again, we shall have to listen to the wireless in the morning.’ And of course, it was poor old Coventry. But there was wave after wave of enemy aircraft that night unopposed. None of our fighters about at all because there was far too many of them because it was early on in the war and we hadn’t, we hadn’t got going. What fighters there was, was down, mainly down south you see. We just hadn’t enough to stop them, and yeah it was a strange experience that, seeing all these enemy aircraft. I know, a comment that my father made which, well you could say it was selfish if you like but he says, ‘I’m pleased it’s not Lincoln. I’m pleased they’re going over Lincoln.’ You know. But someone else was copping it wasn’t it?
MS: Yeah.
HH: But, and, and, and when, when they used to, Hull got bombed quite badly. Do you know we could see the reflection of the fires?
MS: From here.
HH: Absolutely due north from here. We could see the glow in the sky. The sky, on a really dark night you know you could see the glow in the sky of, of and we used to say, ‘Oh, Hull’s getting it tonight,’ you know when they got some of the bad raids. Yeah. Yeah. And, and things like that. So, yeah and we could, we could tell. The Coventry was the, was the biggest raid that we saw, but quite often in those early years of the war when they were bombing our cities, you know that’s the route they would take coming over the Wash. Of course, there was, well when I say they were coming in from France they was coming, I mean if they were coming from France they’d maybe come over the south. But the theory was for the Coventry raid that they’d come in one way and out the other way. Back to France you see. You know. Did a circle because they mainly bombed it from France because France was occupied by that time, wasn’t it?
MS: Yeah.
HH: And it’s not far from France is it? But that’s how it was. That’s how I remember the raids. And Lincoln. Lincoln did get attacked but nothing to the extent that the cities were bombed. The figures were, again I don’t know how accurate this is but the figures were that there was forty aircraft sent to bomb the factories in Lincoln because we had quite an industrial city at one time. Not compared with Sheffield or anything like that but it was an industrial city and the, the figures that I’ve read was that there was forty aircraft set off to bomb the factories in Lincoln but by that time we had got sufficient aircraft and, and stuff to counter them and there was only seven got through. But they did, well they did enough damage, but didn’t do too much damage. If they dropped one bomb they’d done too much damage. There was one or two houses destroyed. Which I could take you to some now that’s been rebuilt and things like that.
MS: Dixon Street.
HH: Dixon Street’s a classic. Yeah. Another in Avondale Street off Monks Road.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Places like that and, and there was, there was some incendiaries, or I think they called them phosphorous bombs. They’re like an incendiary but you put the fire out. Then when they dried out, they flare out again or something. And that dropped into one of the shops in Silver Street and they had two or three days where they was trying to control it like, and things like that. But nothing ever so major if you know what I mean compared with, with other things. Only the isolated, if, if, if an aircraft come over and he had a few bombs left, he would maybe just drop one somewhere and things like that but, oh quite often in Lincolnshire, you know the beggars they would pick a, excuse me they would pick a farm out. Pick a farmhouse out and drop a bomb on a farmhouse. Several farms was, was destroyed like that but just to destroy morale.
MS: Yeah. Good idea.
HH: That’s what it got doing the latter part of the war which was, which was nasty that was you know because they didn’t contribute very little to the war except to the food you see which was irrelevant really, putting one farm out, was it? And then you didn’t destroy the fields.
MS: No. Somebody was still working them.
HH: But as I say it was to do with destroying morale you see, wasn’t it? Obviously, during the war, if an aircraft come over you just wondered what it was going to do to you because another comical, well not comical but peculiar incidents that happened in Washingborough, it came where they invented these barrage balloons. Barrage balloons. And they used to launch these barrage balloons. I don’t think they was ever very effective really because the aircraft went above them or shot them down, didn’t they? And they would occasionally break loose, because they were mostly mounted on a lorry.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And then just let up on this coil, and apparently one broke loose somewhere just, I don’t know where it broke loose but it was trailing its cable, and it was one in a million but the cable came right across the church at Washingborough and it took the flagpole off. Damaged the flagpole, and I think it dropped it. But this cable come across the church and trailed across the village and that was, you know not enemy damage. It was —
MS: Collateral.
HH: It was friendly damage that one, as they call it. Yeah. But little incidents like that you see. And, and then as I, I’d have a [unclear] but then I left school at fourteen and went down to work as I’ve just told you then. Then I got in the building trade and we was engaged, my first job was engaged on, on building, rebuilding two pair of houses in Highfield Avenue, Lincoln which a Lancaster from, I don’t know whether it was Swinderby or, one if the bases. Or Wigsley. Where it had come from and it didn’t get up and it crashed. Took the top off one pair of houses and crashed in to the one the other side of the street and it killed, there was fatalities there. In fact, it was only in the paper about it recently and I’ve got it here. That, that was it. That was it. Oh, it says ten killed there. Well, it would be the crew as well you see, wasn’t it?
MS: There was a young girl killed.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. That one. And I worked, that was my first job working rebuilding those houses that had been knocked down during the war at Highfield Avenue. Yeah. And, and, and another job that I’m proud of that I’ve done related to the war was I, me and another fella erected a War Graves Commission Memorial Cross in Scampton Churchyard.
MS: Right.
HH: There’s a, there’s a stone cross in Scampton Churchyard, and I and another fella erected that while I was an apprentice and of course as you know there are quite a lot of war graves in Scampton Churchyard. But I often look at that Memorial. Well, I always looked at it when I went past like, so yes. I’ve had my connections indirectly with what’s gone on. Well, if you live in Lincolnshire, you really can’t help but have some sort of direct.
MS: You also had a direct connection as well. Being fired on was direct.
HH: I know. I know. I know.
MS: You could call it a direct.
HH: Well, yeah. Yeah. That was the nearest we had come. And, and of course I’ve worked on not many of the airfields but I’ve worked at Waddington quite a bit and I’ve worked at Scampton. And then when Dunholme Lodge had finished it was changed. They took the buildings over for some agricultural purposes, for analysing seeds and things like and we did quite a bit of work on, on, on Dunholme Lodge like. But apart from that I’ve not really been connected with any of the other airfields around here. Although having said that I go past them a lot because I’ve a habit. I have a friend that I go out with and she’s quite interested in this sort of thing. She’s not quite as old as me. Having said that there aren’t many people that are these days but that’s by the by.
MS: There’s more and more actually. We’re all living longer.
HH: We like, she’s interested, even though she’s not a Lincolnshire lady she came up here thirty years ago but she’s very intrigued in what happened with the airfields during the war.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And we’ll, we’ll, I’ll take her past airfields, having a look at airfields and if, if we’re about we’ll, we’ll suss out where there’s a Memorial to an airfield. There’s one very discreetly on the roadside for Kelstern Airfield, which it’s no longer there. You wouldn’t know it was there unless you knew where to look and, and an old map was pointing it out but they were very nicely, there’s a crossroads there, and they very nicely put a War Memorial on these crossroads and it’s nicely looked after to this day and we go and have a look at that sometimes. And there’s another one at Metheringham. We often come across Metheringham Airfield.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Because it’s still very much the runways and the perimeter track there. The main runway’s still there and we’ll, we’ll go to Ruskington and our favourite ride back from Ruskington Garden Centre is to come through the ford at Kirkby Green, and then we’ll drop off and come, come across Metheringham Airfield. Drop as though we’re going into Martin and then cut in to the airfield. Come around the peri track, and we nearly always stop and look at the Memorial which is on our right as we’re travelling up. Lovely Memorial. And again, its well maintained.
MS: Is that by a T-junction. Is the Memorial by a T-junction or a crossroads?
HH: No. It’s, it’s halfway down the eastern side of the peri track.
MS: Right.
HH: On, on the eastern side of the peritrack.
MS: I’m with you.
HH: And it’s a very nicely constructed Memorial, and it was 106 Squadron I think at Metheringham. They were there nearly all the time I think at Metheringham. Again, I can remember that airfield being constructed because I had an uncle, my mother’s brother lived down Blankney Fen, well, at the top end of Blankney Fen and he was only a field away where he lived at a farm. Only a field away from the airfield. And we went over in the holidays once. We used to bike. Bike from here to Metheringham, well, Blankney and went over on our cycles, and he says, ‘Oh,’ he says, we heard all this machinery, he said, ‘Yes, they tell me they’re building an aerodrome up there,’ as they used to call it in those days. An aerodrome. Anyway, we had a walk across these fields and all the diggers was there and they was all laying the runways out.
MS: It didn’t take them long.
HH: I can remember that being constructed, you see.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And, and its, very evident that a lot of it is still there. The peritrack. A lot of the peritrack, and the main runway which is the road from Blankney Fen up to the road joining Walcot and Metheringham.
MS: Oh.
HH: Yeah. And we, my friend and I will get, will get on the end of this runway and ok it’s just a tarmac strip down the middle of the runway but it’s still the same width. Still. They’ve not taking the concrete up and I’ll sometimes say, ‘Right. I’ll rev my engines up. Get ready for take-off. Don’t worry about seat belts because the Lancaster didn’t have them like. Just make sure where your parachute is.’ Joking. I know you shouldn’t joke but that’s what we did.
MS: No. Of course, you can joke.
HH: You see, and then we’ll go and I’ll say, ‘Right. We would be leaving the ground,’ and I used to say now if we was, if we was unlucky that was the last time we touched the ground.’ It all comes back to you, doesn’t it?
MS: It makes you think.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. And of course, there’s the famous ghost stories isn’t there of the airfields? Have you read any?
MS: Go on then.
HH: Oh, there’s loads of ghost stories and, and there’s a brilliant one about Metheringham. And of course, I mean it wasn’t all gloom and doom on the airfields. They used to have a bit of a knees up now and again didn’t they? In the NAAFIs and —
MS: Oh yeah.
HH: And the messes and things like that. And, and if they was having a dance on the airfield they would, there would be buses running from Lincoln just, just with girls in going to the dance with the, you know for the airmen to dance. But there was this particular story that this airman got friendly with a girl from Woodhall, and even her address where she lived at Woodhall has been published. It’s only what I’ve read this is but a lot of people talked about it as well and she, he used to fetch her up from Woodhall on his motorbike. Right. And they’d been up to a bit of a knees up one night and I don’t know whether it was icy or what it was but they got travelling and he didn’t, he hadn’t got off, he hadn’t got off the airfield and his bike went from under him and it resulted in, it killed her anyway. It killed his girlfriend. But the story is that that girl where the incident happened has been seen by quite a few different people since. And a lot of people, well a lot, a few people that’s talked about it. They’d been going along this runway that I’ve talked about and I’ve been looking for them but you don’t see them if you look for them, do you? This this body will appear and it’ll be thumbing. People’s actually pulled up to speak to this girl and then she’s disappeared and and several different people have said it’s the same description from all the people that have seen her.
MS: What airfield’s that?
HH: Metheringham.
MS: Metheringham Airfield.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got a series of books on, “Ghost Stations,” they’re called. A series of about six of them. I’ve got about four or five of them anyway, and all these stories. Nearly all the stations have got stories of they can hear, they can hear Lancaster engines at certain times during the night and things like that.
MS: There’s one, that’s supposed to be true of Fiskerton, isn’t it?
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Fiskerton. There’s one at Fiskerton where a jeep runs up the runways. A vehicle with airmen in at a certain time and a certain day. And also there’s another one from [pause] not Redbourne. What’s the one near Redbourne Airfield? Redbourne. Near Redbourne where they, where they go parachute jumping from there now but the —
MS: Not Langar. It’s not Langar, is it?
HH: No. No. But Hibaldstow.
MS: Oh, Hibaldstow, Redbourne.
HH: Hibaldstow is the one.
MS: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Somebody bought the control tower there. Converted it into a residence, of course as several did but, and they, doorways altered, doorways bricked up and things like that. But the people that went to live in there they started to see airmen fully clothed. Fully clothed airmen. They would, they would come out where the doorways was bricked up.
MS: Where they were.
HH: Where they were. And reappear. And it didn’t put them off. They accepted it. Yeah. Things like that. And of course, the pub at, the pub one of the pubs at Welton, that’s a classic that is because there’s an aircrew. There’s an aircrew been known to go in there and they’ve even conversed with them, people have. Even people like religious men and parsons and things like that. And, and they’ve conversed with them and it’s a crew that went off one night and of course got shot down but the souls came back as you might say. So how true they are or what you have your own mind on that. I’ve an open mind on that sort of thing because I’ve never really witnessed anything to prove that there is such a thing but I don’t disbelieve it because there’s so many people and people far more educated than I am that talk about these things. So there must be something in it you see. And then of course there’s the one, the famous one at Hemswell as well where they can hear somebody drops a spanner during the night. Where they would be working on an aircraft in the hangar and then all of a sudden somebody has dropped a spanner and you know how that would rattle in a hangar at night.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And lights will come on. Lights will come on and they never have fathomed out the reason why the lights come on in the hangars at Hemswell at nights. Whether they still do or what I don’t know. But that’s the aftermath of the war in Lincolnshire, isn’t it?
MS: It is. Now then, we are coming towards the end.
HH: Yeah. We are indeed coming towards the end.
MS: And it’s, I’m right in saying that after the war you went into the building trade and also then you were conscripted.
HH: Yes, I was in the building trade. I learned my trade as an apprenticeship. Apprenticeships were seven years at that time so I was deferred until I was twenty one. If you wasn’t in a, in a trade you went in at eighteen but if you was in a trade you were deferred until you were twenty one, so I went in when I was twenty one. 4th of August 1953. I joined up at RAF Cardington in Bedfordshire, was kitted out there and then we went off up to Wilmslow to do our square bashing as we call it. And then we went down to a place called Church Lawford. Well, you know where Wilmslow is in Cheshire I suppose, being a Manchester man.
MS: Well, I was born in Cheshire as it was then.
HH: Oh right. I’ll come back to that then later.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And then I went down to a place called Church Lawford. An ex, an ex-flying station, for trade training which was just basic training to, one of the comical things down there what I’ve never really understood why they wasted time doing this, they taught us how to use a pick. Now, you can either use a pick or you can’t, and if you hit your foot with it you know you were using it wrong and you learned from there. But they taught us how to use a pick. There’s an RAF way of using a pick.
MS: Is that right?
HH: Yes.
MS: I had no idea.
HH: Yeah. But there you go [laughs] they had to do something.
MS: I shall have to ask you about it afterwards.
HH: They had to do something to use the time up. But then while we were there, we were waiting for postings, you see.
MS: Are you still comfortable?
HH: Well as comfortable as —
MS: Well, listen we’ll give —
HH: I’m alright. I’m alright.
MS: Give it a couple more minutes and then that’ll be it alright.
HH: I’ll finish. Yeah. I’ll finish. Then we, we got our postings and we, we, we got a posting. They said, ‘Right, you’re going to be posted abroad to the Canal Zone in Egypt.’ That’s, that’s all we knew. So, one day we had to be, there was oh I don’t know how many of us there was that went that particular day. About twenty of us I should think and we, we had to go for our injections.
MS: Yeah.
HH: And we had to go from Church Lawford to, which is near, between Coventry and Rugby. But we had to go to, is it Cosforth at Wolverhampton?
MS: Cosford.
HH: Cosford. Wolverhampton.
MS: Cosford. RAF Cosford. Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. We had to go there and they, they didn’t give us, they didn’t give us a pack. They gave us money to buy stuff on the train because they took us down to the station at Rugby. Put us on a train there to Wolverhampton and then from, I think we had to change at Wolverhampton to go to the Cosford but they said, ‘You can get your food on the train,’ and they gave us a shilling. We had to line up the morning before we went, before the officer. He had his little desk out. Salute him. ‘247 Harvey, sir.’ You know. ‘Here’s your shilling.’ I’ve still got that shilling. 1953 on it.
MS: You’ve got it.
HH: I don’t, I can’t, I can’t lay my hands on it now. In fact, I might have even given my granddaughter it, but I didn’t spend it.
MS: What was your service number?
HH: It was 2700.
MS: Yeah.
HH: 247.
MS: Ok. Was there a letter before it or was that just it?
HH: No. No. That was it.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Just simply 2700. At that time it was AC. AC2, Harvey. I rose to the ranks of LAC [laughs] If I’d stayed in I could have possibly got two stripes but I wasn’t interested in staying in. I sometimes, I wish I had have done but that’s by the by. And then from, from where had we got to? Oh yeah. Church Lawford. Then one day they said, ‘Right. You’re going up to Lytham St Anne’s,’ which was a, I forgot the name now where you all waited for your, for your postings.
MS: Up in Lancashire.
HH: Yeah. Up in Lancashire. Yeah. Not far from Blackpool. We had a few nights up there, and then away we went off to Egypt and landed at a place called Fayid which was the main air base. Everything landed at Fayid in Egypt and then we was bumped off to a camp called El Amiriya and I spent nineteen months on this camp at El Amiriya and we used to, we used to go around different parts of the Canal Zone doing whatever wanted doing on married quarters at other camps or, I was posted three. Oh, no. We used to come back at night, I think. Yeah. Yeah. We used to come back at night. A bit further down the Canal Zone there was a camp with all Kenyan people on. Very, very dark people. And they had just had, they had just had water put on to the camp. Piped water so there was stop taps at various places. Myself and another lad, we had a job going and building brick pits and putting a top on where these stop taps was. Now that, that was quite a nice job that was. We was there three weeks. Now, when we got there there was an Army captain, British Army captain in charge of the camp but he wasn’t resident. There the highest rank was, well you would say a warrant officer was in the, if it, if it was a RAF man. Non commissioned. That’s the highest non-commissioned, isn’t it? Am I right?
MS: Yes.
HH: Yeah. And, and he dined in the sergeant’s mess, and he had three sergeants. Six sergeants. Three either side of him. Now, they invited us to dine for lunch and, and breaks to, to dine with them but we sat at each side at the end of these three, and this, this head of the camp he was a tribesman back in Kenya. He’d got facial markings.
MS: The scars.
HH: Scars. Yeah. But he couldn’t speak English, but they had the Canal Zone interpreter that he went to any meetings, big meetings relayed in English and them. He went to the meetings, in to, so we used to speak through him. Wonderful fellow. We became quite friendly with him.
MS: Yeah.
HH: Friendly to the point where he said to us one day, ‘Have you any leave left?’ ‘Yeah. We haven’t used any of it yet.’ ‘See your commanding officer if you can get a fortnight’s leave. I’ll take you to Nairobi where I live and I’ll show you a little bit of Kenya.’
MS: Did you go there?
HH: No. We, we made an appointment with our commanding officer. In fact, he’d been in touch with him this, this sergeant had. And he was very accommodating our commanding officer and he says, ‘Yeah.’ He says, ‘I know what you’ve come for airmen.’ He says, ‘But I cannot grant you permission to go there,’ he says, ‘Because it’s not a recognised leave destination.’ He says, ‘We have our own leave destinations like if you want to go off on leave you go to Famagusta in Cyprus. Somewhere like that,’ he says, ‘And if anything happens to you there,’ he says, ‘I’m responsible for you and I’ve let you go somewhere, if you like out of bounds.’ So, he says ‘I can’t grant you.’ So, we never got unfortunately.
MS: Right.
HH: But that was, that would have been a good experience that would, wouldn’t it?
MS: It would.
HH: And then, I was there, and I stayed there until we was demobbed. I come home on a, I come home on a, on a troop ship. There was sixteen RAF lads on this troop ship, and we came home with the Yorkshire and Lancashire Regiment that had been out there and they filled the ship except for sixteen berths. And I happened to be coming and I filled one of those berths. Lovely. A trip through the Med in August. What can you, eleven days it took us.
MS: What a way to finish your service.
HH: We docked. We docked at what do you come to first? Malta. We docked at Malta, and we docked at Gibraltar. The captain even let us ashore at Gib. At Gib. Yeah. And we had enough hours to go up the Rock.
MS: Did you not go off at Malta?
HH: No.
MS: Really?
HH: Because we only stopped for sort of refuelling and taking supplies and we hadn’t enough time. But there was all these maybe you’ve experienced, as soon as you pull into a dock with a big ship like that, all these little boats come around and try and flog you things and doing all sorts of things if you throw them a coin down. Lovely experience.
MS: It is actually. Listen. We’re going to draw a line under this.
HH: Yeah. Well, I’ve quite enjoyed that. I hope I’ve been some use and not bored you too much.
MS: Well, you have not bored me. I’ve learned a lot and before we go into the technical stuff. It’s not technical stuff, I’ve got to thank you. I don’t mean I’ve got to thank you. I am thanking you. Right. It’s been, it’s been fantastic. I’ve been listening to what you’ve experienced. I didn’t expect to meet anybody who’d been actually fired on by machine gun when they were a child. And the rest of it together is gold. It’s wonderful.
HH: Yeah.
MS: I did say earlier you’ll, you will get a copy of this interview.
HH: Yeah. Lovely. I would appreciate that.
MS: You will.
HH: Yeah.
MS: Can I just take you through some stuff that’s sort of, it’s not legal, it’s, but it’s important I take you through it. First of all, you’ve consented to take part in the interview, and in a minute you’re going to sign that you consented —
HH: All right
MS: To take part.
HH: All right.
MS: And do you agree that your name, not your personal details can be publicly associated with the interview?
HH: Yes, of course.
MS: Ok. I’ll tick that off.
HH: Of course.
MS: Yeah. The rest. Any personal details like your address and stuff like that will be stored totally privately.
HH: Yes.
MS: Do you grant me permission to take your photograph?
HH: Yes.
MS: Thank you.
HH: Yes.
MS: Right. That will be on line for the IBCC Archives.
HH: Oh right. Yeah.
MS: It’s being made up at the moment. Before I go, I’ll give you a link for your daughters to look, and eventually your picture and your interview will appear on that Digital Archive.
HH: Yeah.
MS: So, anybody anywhere in the world can actually get hold of it.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MS: And you agree to the interview being made available online
HH: Yes.
MS: On the computer. Ok. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
MS: The Archive is basically going to look after your material. It’s an important Archive.
HH: Yeah.
MS: Which is going forward into the future. I’m just paraphrasing what’s here now and it will go to all available media.
HH: All right.
MS: And it’s for educational purposes and historical purposes.
HH: Very good.
MS: So, on behalf of the Archive I’m thanking you for that. Now, if you’re happy that what I’ve said is right would you mind signing where I’ve put a cross there?
HH: I will. I’ll sign that. Yeah.
MS: Thank you, sir. Oh sorry. Up there. That’s it. I’m now going to end the interview at eight minutes past twelve. We’ve done well. That’s nearly two hours.
HH: Thank you very much indeed.
MS: You’re more than welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Harold Harvey
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Michael Sheehan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHarveyH180914
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:47:36 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Harvey was a child in Washingborough during the Second World War. He witnessed the construction of airfields around his home and could hear and observe the aircraft departing on operations. One November evening he and his mother and sister were walking along a road and were strafed by a German aircraft. One evening when he and his family were preparing to attend a Carol Concert, they witnessed a Lancaster crash to the ground and explode. He describes how the sky was often full of aircraft and he and his father would watch the activity. On many occasions Harold witnessed the massed German aircraft as they headed to bomb British cities. Harold also saw the testing of FIDO when it was first installed in RAF Fiskerton. Harold also recalls how when the RAF stations were closed after the war, the sites were adapted to other uses.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942
1943
1947
bombing
childhood in wartime
crash
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
home front
Lancaster
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Metheringham
RAF Scampton
RAF Waddington
searchlight
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/787/9358/LMaltbyDJH60335v1.2.pdf
b23af7b66c08924d51d2b516d0b72ec7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Maltby, David John Hatfeild
D J H Maltby
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. The collection concerns Squadron Leader David John Hatfeild Maltby DSO, DFC (1920 - 1943, 60335 Royal Air Force) and consists of his pilot's flying log book and documents. David Maltby completed a tour operations as a pilot in Hampdens, Manchester and Lancasters with 106 and 97 Squadrons at RAF Coningsby before being posted to 617 Squadron at RAF Scampton. He successfully attacked the Möhne Dam in May 1943. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by the Maltby Family and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />Additional information on David John Hatfeild Maltby is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/114788/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Maltby, DJH
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
David Maltby's pilot's flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Royal Air Force pilot's flying log book for Squadron Leader David Maltby covering the period from 20 August 1940 to 13 September 1943. Detailing his flying training and operations flown and instructor duties. He was stationed at RAF Uxbridge, RAF Paignton, RAF Anstey, RAF Grantham, RAF Cranage, RAF Upper Heyford, RAF Coningsby, RAF Wigsley, RAF Dunholme, RAF Fulbeck and RAF Scampton. Aircraft flown were, Tiger Moth, Anson, Oxford, Hampden, Manchester and Lancaster. He flew a total of 32 night operations, 5 with 106 Squadron, 23 with 97 Squadron and 4 with 617 Squadron. Targets in Denmark, Germany, and Italy and Norway were Duisberg, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Kiel, Karlsruhe, Essen, Magdeberg, Hamburg, Heligoland, Trondheim, Stuttgart, Warnermund, Copenhagen, Mannheim, Sassnitz, Möhne Dam, San Polo D’Enza, Leghorn and Milan. He flew as a second pilot on operations with Flight Lieutenant Coton. He was killed returning from an aborted operation to the Dortmund Ems Canal 14/15 September 1943.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LMaltbyDJH60335v1
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1941-06-11
1941-06-12
1941-06-15
1941-06-16
1941-06-18
1941-06-19
1941-06-21
1941-06-22
1941-06-24
1941-06-25
1941-08-02
1941-08-03
1941-08-05
1941-08-06
1941-08-07
1941-08-08
1941-08-12
1941-08-13
1941-08-16
1941-08-17
1941-08-18
1941-08-19
1941-10-23
1941-10-24
1941-10-26
1941-10-27
1941-10-31
1941-11-01
1941-11-07
1941-11-08
1941-11-15
1941-11-16
1942-04-08
1942-04-09
1942-04-27
1942-04-28
1942-04-29
1942-05-04
1942-05-05
1942-05-07
1942-05-08
1942-05-09
1942-05-16
1942-05-17
1942-05-19
1942-05-20
1942-05-22
1942-05-23
1942-05-26
1942-05-27
1942-06-08
1942-06-09
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
1943-07-15
1943-07-16
1943-07-24
1943-07-25
1943-07-29
1943-07-30
1943-09-15
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Denmark
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Norway
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Denmark--Copenhagen
England--Cheshire
England--Devon
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Shropshire
England--Warwickshire
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Sassnitz
Italy--Livorno
Italy--Milan
Italy--San Polo d'Enza
Norway--Trondheim
Italy--Po River Valley
Germany--Möhne River Dam
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
106 Squadron
16 OTU
1654 HCU
617 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Flying Training School
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Hampden
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
killed in action
Lancaster
Manchester
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Ansty
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cranage
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Fulbeck
RAF Grantham
RAF Paignton
RAF Scampton
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Uxbridge
RAF Wigsley
Tiger Moth
Tirpitz
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/769/9413/MDexterKI127249-170830-10.2.jpg
1af5fd6722cb401cb5e2f816325003e6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dexter, Keith Inger
Dexter, Dec
K I Dexter
Description
An account of the resource
33 items. The collection concerns Flying Officer Keith Dexter (1911 - 1943, 127249, 1387607 Royal Air Force ), a policeman before the war, he flew as a pilot with 103 Squadron at RAF Elsham Wolds. He was shot down and killed with all his crew on 16/17 June 1943 on operations against Cologne. Collection contains a dozen letters from 'Dec' Dexter to Phyllis Dexter,There is an extract from the 103 Squadron Operational Record Book on the loss of his aircraft and crew, maps of where his aircraft crashed, official Royal Air Force personnel records, Netherlands official documents, document about his aircraft as well as a photograph of a Lancaster over Lincoln and a crew. There are photographs of his grave as well as a group of people, including Keith Dexter being interviewed as a pilot trainee by the BBC at RAF Hatfield. There are two detailed daily diaries covering his time in the Royal Air Force from from 3 April 1941 to June 1943 which relate activities while training and on operations. There are some memorabilia, a photograph of a Lancaster over Lincoln, a painting, and an <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/770">album</a>. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Lieutenant Colonel Monty Dexter-Banks and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.<br /><br />Additional information on Keith Inger Dexter is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/106139/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dexter, KI
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
The Hall,
Waterbeach,
Cambs.
Telephone: Cambridge 860216
[Underlined] LANCASTER B.III ED 945 [/underlined]
This aircraft was one of a batch of 620 ordered from A.V. Roe, Chadderton, Nr. Manchester in 1941 and built from November 1942 to June 1943. 129 with Nos. ED 303 to ED 782 were built as Mk Is fitted with R.R. Merlin 20 engines, and the remaining 491 were Mk IIIs fitted with Rolls Royce (Packard built) Merlin 28 engines, thus ED 783 to ED 999 and EE 105 to EE 202 were B.IIIs. Twenty of this particular batch with numbers either side of ED 932 (Gibson’s aircraft) were specially modified known as “Type 464 provisioning” to enable the special store, Barnes Wallis’ bomb, to be carried and released on the Dams raid. Completed in the late Spring of 1943, on the 9th June ED 945 was delivered to 103 Squadron stationed at Elsham Wolds, Barnetby, North Lincolnshire. 103 was in 1 Group Bomber Command, with Group Headquarters at Bawtry and th[deleted] e [/deleted] eir airfields grouped along the South bank of the Humber estuary.
When this aircraft was lost on the raid to Cologne on the night of 16/17 June 1943 it had logged 48 flying hours. This raid on Cologne comprised one of the actions during the Battle of the Ruhr 5/6 March 1943 to 28/29 June 1943. 26 major attacks were carried out during this period, the force generally comprising of 500 to 700 heavies. The target was marked by Oboe Mosquitoes of PFF dropping target indicators blind which were backed-up by ground markers dropped visually by PFF Lancasters. The aiming point was marked continuously throughout the attack during which time it was bombed by the Main Force: 1,3,4, 5 and 6 Groups.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
History of Lancaster B.III ED 945
Description
An account of the resource
Ordered 1941 and built by A.V. Roe at Chadderton near Manchester as one of a batch of 620 between November 1943 and June 1943. Twenty of this batch either side of ED 932 (Gibson's aircraft) were modified as type 464 provisioning to enable Barnes Wallis's bomb to be carried. ED 945 completed 9 June 1943 and delivered to 103 Squadron. Aircraft lost on night 16/17 June 1943 on an operation to Cologne. Covers some aspects of this operation.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MDexterKI127249-170830-10
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Manchester
England--Lincolnshire
England--Bawtry
Germany
Germany--Cologne
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-11
1943-06
1943-06-09
1943-06-16
1943-06-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One-page typewritten document
1 Group
103 Squadron
617 Squadron
bombing
bouncing bomb
crash
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 3
Mosquito
Oboe
Pathfinders
target indicator
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/722/10118/ABradfordS161031.2.mp3
18e10be05e692061bdfe7a521b7d2770
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Title
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Bradford, Stanley
S Bradford
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. An oral history interview with Stan Bradford DFM (1923 - 2017, 2216040 Royal Air Force) also includes his flying log book, service and release document, investiture ticket, newspaper cuttings and squadron photograph. He flew operations as a mid-upper gunner from RAF Scampton.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stanley Bradford and Matt Ashamall and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-10-31
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bradford, S
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today I’m in Abingdon with Stan Bradford DFM and we’ve just been to the Remembrance celebration in the centre of the town. And Stan was a mid-upper gunner and we’re going to talk about some extra items that have come out of the earlier part of the interview done by Matt Ashamall. So the first one that was intriguing I thought Stan was how you came to join the RAF. Because of when you were going in your truck.
SB: Yeah.
CB: To Blackpool. You thought you’d —
SB: Yes.
CB: Go into the Recruiting Office. So just talk us through that could you?
SB: Well, from what I remember it my foreman where I was an apprentice his name was Ervyn Jagger. And since the war I’ve been in management myself and one of the big things I felt I had to look at was his style of man management. And his man management was absolutely deploring. Now, our job. We were in a Reserved Occupation and our job was to repair fighting vehicles such as coaches that transported troops from station to station. If they had been involved in an accident we had to repair them and then deliver them to the old, back to the owners. And one particular day I was with a guy and he was an Irishman, his name was Mick Jagger. That was a good for you. Now, Mick was wonderful. But Ervyn Jagger, the foreman he came up to Mick. He said, ‘Mick. I’m going to take your lad off you.’ Which was me. And he said, ‘He’s big enough. And now the restrictions are lifted where you don’t need a driving test anymore,’ he said, ‘And I want him to take a Seagull coaches to Blackpool. Having repaired it now we’ll take it to Blackpool.’ And it annoyed me in so much that I was with Mick as a lad and I was doing pretty good. And it seemed to me that he was determined to stop me being so good because he had his favourites in the department. However, I got in the bus and we had to go through, I mean you will all have heard of Wigan Pier. And close to Wigan Pier we went through with this bus. And I thought, ‘Bugger. I’m going to go in the forces.’ My mates are in there that was in the village. It was a small village called Astley that had about a couple of hundred people and the local industry was a coal mine. However, I thought I’m going to have a go. So I went to the army guy and I said, ‘Can I recruit? Join the army.’ ‘Oh come in,’ you know, ‘We’ll take you on.’ Of course once he knew I was an apprentice he said, ‘No chance.’ He said, ‘You’re an apprentice in a Reserved Occupation. So,’ he said, ‘No chance.’ Well, for reasons best known to the service people there were three in a line. The army, the navy, the air force. So I’m now with the navy. So I went to the navy. And the navy bloke said, ‘Yeah. Come in.’ Once he started, Reserved Occupation, out you go. They wouldn’t have me. I thought well I’ll just as well fix the three up. I’ll go to the air force. And the sergeant in there said, ‘Yeah. We’ll have you. But,’ he said, ‘There’s only one place you’re going to be,’ he said, ‘Because I heard you talking about the guy down the street that you’ve been in a Reserved Occupation.’ I said, ‘Exactly.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘The only chance you’ve got of coming in to the air force,’ he said, ‘Is you go in aircrew.’ I said, ‘That’s alright. Put me down for aircrew.’ So off I went quite happily. Signed. And delivered the coach and then come back to my works where I was apprentice. Went home in the evening. I said, ‘Mum and dad, I’ve been and joined the services.’ My dad said, ‘What you done?’ I said, ‘I’ve joined the air force. In aircrew.’ He said, ‘What?’ he said, ‘Bloody nancy boys.’ [laughs] I said, ‘I’m afraid so, dad.’ Of course he had his say and it wasn’t very pleasant because he was a regimental sergeant major in the army in the First World War. ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’ve done it. There’s nothing we can do.’ Within five days I had to go to a place which wasn’t too far from home called RAF Padgate. And there they did an attestation. So we had to sit an exam. Did we have a brain? We had an examination. Then we had a medical examination. A colour test. Make sure that we weren’t colour blinded because to get in aircrew you had to be spot on. Your hearing. And when they’d finished with you you could guarantee that you are a fit man. And from there within, we went home, and within less than a week I was in and back to Padgate. And I’ll always remember a funny story at Padgate. I said to the corporal who was in charge, we went to a wrestling match which they put on for the troops and this corporal, I said to this corporal, ‘Is there any chance of me going home?’ I said, ‘I only live just up the road.’ ‘Just the bloke we’re looking for. So what would I ended up? I was an usher ushering people to their seats. So, I didn’t get my chance to go home. And from there we went off to Lords Cricket Ground. So that was —
CB: Yeah.
SB: When I, why I joined.
CB: Fantastic. Thank you very much. Now, in the process of your flying you were very successful in engaging aircraft. So, I wondered if we could just take a sequence out of the overall sequence of your kills and because yours is a very unusual situation and it would be really useful to be able to hear how this progressed because some of the people I’ve interviewed never even shot at an aircraft let alone shot it down. So your first engagement was what?
SB: We were on the way to Nuremberg. And sitting up in the mid-upper turret you’d got a damned good view of proceedings and I happened to spot, when I was traversing the mid-upper turret [pause] a Lancaster blown up. And I thought Christ. I kept my eye on him. It was a 109. I kept my eye on him and I thought he appears to be swooping around towards us. And I thought extra alert on to him. So, I said to my pilot, told him there was enemy aircraft on our starboard beam. And astern and starboard beam is back of us. And lo and behold yes he was coming towards us. Well, one of the things in our training we had to know the aircraft that was we were engaging. We had to know it’s wing span. We had to know its speed. We had to know everything there was to know about who was coming so we could line him up in our sights and this 109 was coming towards us. And I thought right. I put my sights on him. Frightened to death. I watched him until he got within shooting range and then I gave him a burst. And hey presto I was lucky. I hit him and caught him straight in the engine and down he went. And I watched him go. I shouldn’t have done it but I did it. I watched him go down. We’re not supposed to look down at all. So, I watched him going down. And in between this what I told the pilot to, ‘Dive to port. Go.’ Now, a pilot never moved until the gunner said to him, Prepare to dive to port.’ And he always waited for the word, ‘Go.’ And you can imagine the suspense between the two of us. Him waiting for me and me waiting for him to [laughs] It was a little bit frightening but I did it. I did it.
CB: So you shot it down. So the idea of then going the opposite way. In other words to port, to the left was to get out of the way.
SB: Dive away from him coming in. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Because he might have got you himself even.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Right. Ok. So which operation was that? Was that one of your early —
SB: That was the very first.
CB: Very first. Right.
SB: Very first. From Scampton.
CB: Right.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And the second kill. What was that?
SB: The second kill. Our rear gunner, he reported enemy aircraft astern of us and again he gave the pilot order what he wanted. I believe it was again dive starboard. And naturally it drew my attention to that situation. And Chick hit him. He fired at him. He hit him but he didn’t put him down. And I looked over as he went underneath us. I looked over and I thought well I’ve got to help him on his way. So, I belted him and he went down.
CB: What was that?
SB: I believe it was a Focke Wulf 190. And that was very close to the target. Nuremberg. Now, during this time obviously they the Focke Wulf in particular he shot at us and wounded us and he destroyed our navigational equipment. So, basically we come out the target the other end and we were lost. Ron, our pilot, he never kept anything from us. He always informed us of what was happening and he said, ‘Well, lads,’ he said, ‘You’ve done a good job getting rid of that lot. Now,’ he said, ‘We’ve got a problem. We’re bloody lost.’ However, this, what this did this brought in our navigator. He had what they called in those days a sextant. And this sextant it was taken from what they called the astrodome where the spare man, in this case it was our wireless operator in the target area looking for enemy aircraft to inform us if there was one about. But he relinquished the role and let the navigator go in there firing the sextant at the stars to get a fix. Where were we and whatever. And Tony got, Tony West his name was, he got a fix alright. And he seemed to get us somewhere near but we were all alone. By this time one of the engines had gone. We had three. And later on in the trip after probably maybe an hour, two hours we came out and Tony. He said, ‘I’ve got a feeling now, Skipper,’ he said, ‘We’re over the sea.’ He said, ‘I’m sure I see the enemy, the coast.’ So, he said, ‘Ron,’ he said, ‘If you’re looking for help,’ he said, ‘I would issue an SOS. Call up Darkie and say we’re lost.’ What are we going to do? So Ron did. He thought that was not a bad idea. He called out Darkie and SOSs and one thing and another. And before you could say jack’s a lad bump. Bang. We were over the Channel Islands and as is well known that the Germans invaded the Channel Islands and occupied it and the Germans were firing at us. We thought, Christ. It wasn’t very pleasant. But Ron stuck the nose down from what height we had and got well away as quick as he could. And after a little while an aircraft appeared and flashed his navigation lights. You know, the green and the red. And we picked him up by, well I picked him up. I said, ‘It’s a Typhoon bomber.’ I said to Ron, ‘It’s a Typhoon bomber.’ And he took a position. He was a little out of range of our guns. We only had a four hundred yards accuracy. And I said, ‘We aint going to have a go at him.’ However, I did identify him. He was a Typhoon. And he kept well out on [pause] of our range and he escorted us back. He was based at RAF Exeter. He guided us in. Wished us all the best. Did chatter. Got us on the runway. And we got to the end of the runway and the bloody engines packed in. Course the aircraft was knocked about like a colander. Well what they said to us when they got us out the aeroplane very quickly in case something blew up or whatever and debriefed us and then they took us for a meal. The old traditional egg and bacon. And the flight sergeant in the sergeant’s mess there was only two of us. Three of us, I beg your pardon. He took us into the mess and unfortunately the flight sergeant in the mess he’d just been informed that his son who was an air gunner had just been missing on operations. So he made a real special effort looking after us three. Two of us were gunners. And he said, ‘What about a drink lads?’ We were all dressed for flying so it was, thinking it was winter see keep warm so we kept the aircrew unit on and they took us into Exeter. We’d barely got out the van that he’d laid on for us into Exeter when the SPs got hold of us and whipped us back to base which didn’t please the flight sergeant. I think he doubted their parentage if I’m honest because of what they’d done and he told them what we’d gone through. And they said, ‘We’re doing our job.’ So it was all messed up. And the next day we flew back to Scampton where we picked our kit up and then off to East Kirkby.
CB: When —
SB: And then we had to wait a little while before 57 Squadron confirmed that we were credited with the two and they gave them to me.
CB: Brilliant. On a slightly different note what was the relationship you had with the ground crew?
SB: Perfect. Absolutely perfect.
CB: So, when you brought a colander back how did they express their feelings about that?
SB: I don’t think I’d like to come out with the language but can I just said Jesus Christ [laughs]
CB: Over the Channel Islands that was flak that hit you was it?
SB: The big guns.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. The big guns. Yeah. Yeah. And in point of fact some years later I said to my wife, we went on holiday into Weymouth and I said to my wife I spotted this sign, “day trip.” I said [unclear] ‘We’re going.’ And I went to see the old hospital and things like that.
CB: Yeah. The underground hospital.
SB: Just to bring back memories.
CB: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
CB: And those coastal guns.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Fantastic.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Right. So that’s your first operation and you shot down two aircraft.
SB: Yes.
CB: So, we’re on the topic of the kills. What was the third victory that you had?
SB: I think the Dornier 217. That was a fighter bomber. And I’ve got a feeling. I’m not certain where that, where he was. [pause] He was, all I can tell you he was persistent. He had a go at us two or three times and we, between us we dodged him with our tactics. Again, which was a lot of the training.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And our tactics beat him.
CB: So, how did you actually get him in the end? In the fuselage? In the engines? Or what?
SB: Straight in the pilot’s cabin. Yeah. I thought, well the bugger had got to go hadn’t he? It’s him or me.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Either kill or be killed.
CB: What, what raid were you on then? What op?
SB: I’ve got a feeling we were Berlin.
CB: Right.
SB: I’m sure. Berlin.
CB: Yeah. So that’s number three. What happened with the next one?
SB: I think again it was an ME 109. We was just approaching. Again Berlin. We were going in there. We hadn’t had a very pleasant trip in there and Munday decided well we’ve come this far. We’re going to go and we’re going to go in there and we’re going to do what we’re paid to do. And we did it. And just as we were coming out the other end he was waiting for us. So I thought well he’s got to go and all [laughs] So, yes. I did him.
CB: So, we’re in the night and these are single-engine aircraft. They’re being directed by radar to you.
SB: Yes. Yes.
CB: Right.
SB: Yes. Yes.
CB: So how did you see him first?
SB: I think I looked. I’m pretty sure I looked up and he was just hovering above. Obviously out of the way of the flak. And I identified him pretty quick and said that’s what he was. And I’m pretty positive in saying that as was the case with the last one he didn’t see us.
CB: So effectively you got him —
SB: I hit him. I hit him in the engine. And the last one I — he was flying on the beam and Dennis was in the, as I said earlier he, Dennis was in the astrodome looking. Helping the gunners. Looking for enemy aircraft. And he said, ‘Look on the starboard beam, Stan.’ I said, ‘Funnily enough I just got, I’ve just seen him.’ And with that I had him. I’d time to tell him to tell Ron what tactics were involved so a bit too late so, however, I had him. I shot the pilot. I could, I could even see it now. I had him. Full. No bother.
CB: And at what distance are we talking about?
SB: I’m talking of what two, three hundred yards.
CB: Right. And in, I didn’t ask you but in the mid-upper turret how many guns have you got?
SB: Two.
CB: Right.
SB: Two.
CB: And they’re zeroed at what range?
SB: The maximum we had was four hundred. Maximum.
CB: Right. So, we’ve done three and four. How did you feel about it once you’d dealt with them?
SB: Could you say elated in one sense.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And thanking my lucky stars in the other.
CB: Sure.
SB: Yeah. Yes.
CB: Number five.
SB: I’m not. Do you know I’m not certain. I’m not. I’m not a hundred percent certain so I don’t know if you don’t mind if I don’t comment on the one. I’m not. I’m not — it’s misty. No.
CB: At what happened you mean?
SB: Sorry?
CB: You mean when it was and what happened.
SB: Yeah. I’m a little bit foggy.
CB: Yes.
SB: I’m not a hundred percent certain.
CB: But roughly. Just roughly.
SB: Roughly. Roughly again —
CB: Because they were all at night these things.
SB: They had a go at us.
CB: Yeah.
SB: I’ve got a feeling one was on the way [pause] they had a clue from the — see being it was early this one. They were waiting on the borders. Before Sweden. And I think again it was a 109. Pretty sure it was. And —
CB: Is this over Denmark is it?
SB: Sorry?
CB: Is this over Denmark?
SB: Yeah. On the way in.
CB: Yeah. To Berlin.
SB: In to Sweden.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Because we flew over Sweden which unfortunately Winston Churchill denied that we were briefed to go that way. Again, strange enough it was one of the most frightening we did. Not being used to seeing streetlights and things like this. And also they had, the Swedish air force were equipped with Focke Wulf 190s —
CB: Right.
SB: As their front line aircraft. Fighters. And they kept just outside the four hundred yard mark at which are guns weren’t effective and your sitting there, ‘Is that bugger going to shoot at us?’ And you didn’t, just didn’t comprehend what, what was going to happen. Were they going, were they going to have a go at us or not? But fortunately they escorted us straight through Sweden to the other end and believe it or believe it not there was a searchlight pointing at to sea. Straight over our track.
CB: This is on the return trip.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
SB: We’d done the bombing. Then we were coming home.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And it was unbelievable to think that —
CB: They would do that. Yeah.
SB: They was identifying the track. That’s the way you’ve got to go lads.
CB: Fantastic.
SB: And our man went.
CB: Yeah. But your engagement with the fighter was before then.
SB: Oh yeah. That was on the, coming into, into Sweden.
CB: Yes. Oh you went over —
SB: The had an idea from the —
CB: You went over Sweden both ways did you?
SB: No. No.
CB: No.
SB: No. No. Coming home.
CB: Right.
SB: Coming home. I’ve got a feeling one of them, because of the following wind it took us an hour and a half to get from take-off to bombing.
CB: Really.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Gee.
SB: And it took us six and a half to come back against the wind [laughs]
CB: Blimey. Yeah.
SB: I can always remember that you know.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
CB: So that was a very memorable experience
SB: Yes.
CB: Because of the lack of knowledge.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Of whether the Swedes would attack or not.
SB: Yes. Yes. My very, very worst one was the one before the end.
CB: Right.
SB: We knew. We knew we were very very close to finishing. And we called it, it was christened the night of the high winds. And the wind blew us off track. And Tony West, he always put it down. He kept contact with Ron’s instruction. He kept contacting base about the winds. He said. ‘They’re not what you said they were going to be.’ And he kept on. On and on to them. And base kept saying to him there’s nothing wrong with the winds. And they wouldn’t accept there was anything wrong at all. However, it blew us off course and it blew us a hell of a long way off course and it blew us over the Ruhr. Now, in anybody’s language the Ruhr was naughty.
CB: Happy Valley.
SB: Yeah. Called, it was called Happy Valley. Yes. Now, what happened it was some pilots dream. An aircraft which we were the unfortunate ones. The aircraft were coned in searchlights. In total we were coned for thirty five minutes. Now, if you’re coned even for a few minutes you’re belted out, almost belted out the sky which they hammered us good and proper. We were shot. I think we had two engines in the end. And when I said about it being a pilot’s dream — if an aircraft was coned this was a signal for following aircraft to dive through. When they were coning you they couldn’t cone two of you together and it allowed the other one to shoot through. So they probably clapped their hands Christ thanked their lucky stars. Unlucky stars. But bless him, Ron my old skipper he threw that aircraft all over the sky and he got us out. Now, ‘Now, we’re free from that lot lads but,’ he said, ‘We’ve got another bloody problem.’ Fred Simmons, our engineer he said, ‘Ron,’ he said, ‘Unfortunately that little bit of a detour we had to have and all that you throwing it about the sky it’s affected our fuel consumption. So,’ he said, ‘We’ve got a decision to make as a crew,’ he said, ‘I always said and I always will stick to a decision that the whole crew make the risk. The decision whether we’re going to go back to try and get back to our original place on track or we come back over the sea.’ So, we said, well [laughs] we had different views but the vote was we came back by sea. And I believe we couldn’t make base because of we were short about I think we had two engines and I think we landed at Coltishall.
CB: In Norfolk. Yeah.
SB: Then a couple of days and fixed us up. Back to East Kirkby and Wing Commander Miller was our commanding officer and he said, ‘Because of the hairy situation you’ve just been in over the Ruhr,’ he said, ‘The trip that’s just coming up,’ he said, ‘Which I’m not going to put you on so you’re confined to camp.’ So we couldn’t go blabbing about where main force were going. He said, ‘I’m not going to put you on the Ruhr.’ He said, ‘I’m going to save you for a bit easier.’ Which wasn’t a bad idea really. In theory. So we attended the briefing for our last one. Lo and behold where was it? We looked at each other and said, ‘Jesus Christ.’ It was Nuremberg. Which was the infamous one that Bomber Command lost ninety odd aircraft. But between this I had been awarded my Distinguished Flying Medal. And we were briefed to go to Emden. And for some unknown reason, weather or whatever, they called it off. So, we were in our flying gear. I had a black and white silk scarf my mum gave me as a lucky mascot and buoyancy suits. We did look darlings. All grease all over the face where the buckles on your mask so you didn’t get frostbite. And so we were allowed in the mess because the trip had been cancelled so we were allowed in the mess in flying gear so we went in the mess for a jug or two. And I’d barely got a jug in my hand for a pint and the phone went in the mess and the page, paged me on the phone and it was my skipper. He said, ‘What the hell have you been doing?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. I’m just having a pint.’ He said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’ve been doing summat,’ he said, ‘Because I’ve got to get you into Wing Commander Miller’s officer straight away.’ He said, ‘Now, I’m coming outside the mess to pick you up.’ He said, ‘I’m only just over the road at the officer’s mess,’ he said, ‘I’m, like yourself, having one.’ He said, ‘I’m going to pick you up. Down the flights we go.’ So he marched me in. After a little while he called me in. He marched me into Wing Commander Miller’s office and Wing Commander Miller looked at me. He said, ‘You sergeant are improperly dressed.’ I said, ‘I’ve got a tie. A scarf.’ He said, ‘You’re improperly dressed,’ he said, ‘Coming in my office.’ He tore me a strip off. Then he said, ‘I’m pleased to tell you, Sergeant Bradford you’ve just been the immediate award of the Distinguished Flying Medal. Now,’ he said, ‘Get in to Boston and have some bloody beer.’ So, Boston was our nearest place and he said I’ve reserved a couple of seats on the coach for you. So,’ he said, ‘In to Boston. You go and have some beer.’ And that was it. So that was the finish.
CB: Fantastic. On the sequence we were talking about you shot down six didn’t you?
SB: Yeah.
CB: So, we’ve got to number five which was when you went on the trip that went via Sweden.
SB: Yes.
CB: What about the sixth one? What was that?
SB: I can, yes. Well, yes he was. It was a Dornier 217. And whether you, the Germans allowed them to sleep or not I don’t know but there was two of them in there. And again we were coming out of the target a little bit higher than usual and he was up there and looking out for us as we were looking out for him. And I engaged him. He saw us at the last minute. I engaged him and, well the rest is history. He had to go.
CB: Where was him in, where was he in relation to the aircraft?
SB: Again, he was, he was —
CB: High up.
SB: Starboard up. Higher. Yes.
CB: So, in the circumstances what would be the aiming point of that, on that aircraft?
SB: I just shot at the aeroplane.
CB: Right.
SB: I just shot at the aeroplane.
CB: So effectively it raked —
SB: It blew up.
CB: It raked the underside.
SB: It blew up.
CB: Did it? Right.
SB: Yes. He did.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yes, he did. Yes. He did.
CB: So —
SB: And then there was all this, ‘Well done, Stan.’ And in point of fact I got a book on the Battle of Berlin.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And my pilot, bless him he wrote in there, “A present to Stan.” Martin Middlebrook’s book. It was, “A present to Stan who saved our lives on many occasions.”
CB: Brilliant. Yes. The planes you were, you shot down were a combination of twin engine and single engine.
SB: Yes. Yes.
CB: So the fifth one. Was that also a single engine?
SB: Yes. A Focke Wulf 190.
CB: That was a 190 as well?
SB: Yes.
CB: That was —
SB: Yes.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
SB: Yes.
CB: On the way to the target was it?
SB: Yes.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
SB: Yes. They were over the target and on the approach as well.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Fighter planes. Get away quicker see.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
SB: The big stuff like the Dorniers were outside the target waiting for us.
CB: What sort of — when they saw you in advance what sort of range did they start shooting?
SB: They was around the four hundred yards. They had — they, obviously they could. They had a bigger range than us. See, four hundred yards was the, a Browning 303.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Whereas what were they armed with?
SB: Yeah.
CB: What were they armed with? What guns did they have?
SB: I don’t honestly know.
CB: So they had 30 mill err 20 millimetre cannon.
SB: I’ve no idea.
CB: Right. As well as machine guns.
SB: I’ve no idea at all.
CB: Yeah. Ok. Good. Thank you. We’ll take a pause there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: So, Stan with six aircraft shot down.
SB: Yeah.
CB: In RAF parlance that made you an ace.
SB: Yes.
CB: How did they recognise that?
SB: It was announced at briefing at East Kirkby that, ‘Gentlemen, we’ve got an ace in our midst.’ Miller. Wing Commander Miller. And I believe that there was another officer who was commanding officer of the whole of the group was Group Captain Taff. I don’t know whether you’ve ever heard of him at all.
CB: No.
SB: He was —
CB: Obviously Welsh.
SB: I believe, again that [pause] I used to get on pretty, well he did with most aircrew. He was a damned good drinker [laughs] But he announced that it was his pleasure to shake my hand. And he said to everybody, ‘Here we’ve got him. He’s an ace.’ That. And it was as quick as that.
CB: So, at Kirkby as everywhere else there was a gunner leader was there?
SB: Yes. Yes.
CB: And how did he react to that?
SB: I’d like to use a word but I don’t dare. Can we call —
[recording paused]
CB: So, there was a gunnery leader.
SB: Yeah. It was, it was the practice that the leader of each section, and I can only speak of 57 Squadron that the gunnery leader in my case, he said, ‘I’m going to rest you on the next trip,’ he said, ‘You won’t be going on the trip. I’ll be taking your place.’ Which rather dejected me and I went to my skipper and I said, ‘Ron, I’m not happy at all. My gunnery leader’s taking me off the trip and he’s going in my place.’ And Ron’s reaction was, ‘He bloody well aint.’ And he didn’t.
CB: What rank would gunnery —
SB: Flight lieutenant.
CB: Right.
SB: He had a thing about him. I can only again speak for my personal self and my other gunner, Chick who was a Canadian. I can only speak for the two of us. We never ever missed the opportunity to go out on the gunnery range and practice. Clay pigeon shooting and shooting from a, from a turret. From one like me I was in a two and he was in a four. We never ever, ever missed a session. Chick, he was the champion clay pigeon shooter and I was his deputy.
CB: Very good.
SB: Yeah. We never missed.
CB: Right.
SB: Now, so that gunnery leader should have talked to us and used us an example.
CB: Exactly. So my next question was what the reaction?
SB: He didn’t.
CB: Of the other gunners.
SB: He didn’t. Whether it registered. It must have registered mustn’t it? But he didn’t seem to take it on board.
CB: Ok [pause] Thank you. Now, a couple of other things. One is that when you were at Scampton you met Guy Gibson.
SB: Yes. I did.
CB: Just, what was the, he was 617 but —
SB: Yes. I was on my way. I can, again that’s one. Things like this never leave you. I was on my way into the sergeant’s mess. Right. And I think it was at mealtime and he was walking his dog. Naturally I had to throw him one up. Salute. And he called me over. And he had a thing. Gibson. About NCOs. He just [pause] he didn’t like them as much as he did officers. End of story really. I can honestly say that the aircrew — sergeants and flight sergeants, they weren’t his favourite people.
CB: Was that related to the role they did? So, did air gunners come off worst?
SB: I don’t know. I really don’t know. But he didn’t. He was against aircrew. Sergeants.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And flight sergeants.
CB: What about his dog?
SB: Friendly enough. Friendly enough. Them days the billets were just inside the gate and we were in one of those billets. There were two crews in the house. And he’d obviously been somewhere and come through the gates on the way to the mess when I met him.
CB: But the dog was called?
SB: I can’t remember it’s bloody name. Not Ricky. No. No. I forget.
CB: And the dog was called N*****.
SB: N*****. I went and looked at his grave this last year.
CB: Did you?
SB: When they called us up for our reunion. Yeah.
CB: And was the dog allowed to wander around? Or what happened?
SB: Yes. He did.
CB: With the dog.
SB: Yes. He did.
CB: That mess up your shoes?
SB: After I’d gone he was, he died.
CB: Did it mess up your shoes a bit?
SB: No.
CB: Ok. Thank you. The other one is a contentious one and its one that nowadays is used to, is described a different way but in war there are all sorts of sanctions that are imposed.
SB: [unclear]
CB: In war there are all sort of sanctions imposed.
SB: Sanctions.
CB: According to circumstances. So you had a certain situation where one of the crew on one of the trips lost his bottle. What was the circumstances of that?
SB: Ginger.
CB: What happened there?
SB: Well, that again was a Berlin. It was custom [pause] I would reckon that all pilots did it. When you were just before, well it was just before actually your bombing run you knew you were coming up shortly to your bombing run and pilots always lifted the nose of the aircraft slightly upwards. So that when the word, ‘Bombs gone,’ it automatically gave a lurch up and with it pointing upwards you took one hell of a lift up. And it was also custom that when the bombs had gone the pilot used to scream out, and it was a scream, ‘Full power.’ Now, the practice was that the engineer, the pilot had enough on his plate to steer the aircraft. So the engineer put his hand on the four throttles and pushed them forward and locked them. So they were screaming their guts out.
CB: So they’re through the gate.
SB: Through the gate.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And naturally the crew knew. We just took it as that was it. All glued to our seats. And when we got back Ron said to the crew, by which time Ginger had been left with intelligence but with the crew he got us all together and he said, ‘Well, lads,’ he said, ‘We’ve got a problem. We’ve got a problem. And,’ he said, ‘It’s not a pleasant problem. Ginger [pause] has gone LMF.’ He said, ‘You know from experience that it’s my job always to call for full power through the gate when we are coming out of the target to get us away as quick as we can and it’s unfortunate Ginger was hiding behind my seat. He couldn’t face up to it.’ So, he said, ‘There. You’ve got it.’ He said, ‘We’ve got no option but to report it to the commanding officer,’ he said. And well that was the end. He’d gone. Whether it was a stroke of luck. Fate. Is that what they call it? But we picked up another engineer within days because we, in them days it was essential we got as many bombers up there as they could and we picked up a bloke called Fred Simmons. And Fred, I always called him, he was point of fact we palled up. He was one of, my best friend. And what he didn’t know about an engine wasn’t worth knowing. He was absolutely brilliant. Now, Fred, he was with another aircraft and the crew he was with — Fred went sick [pause] And naturally if you had a sneeze in aircrew you were took off. So Fred was took off the trip and unfortunately the crew he was with didn’t come back. So we inherited Fred after a few days. We inherited Fred as our engineer. The replacement for Ginger. And he was brilliant. He was the kind of bloke that because I came from just outside of Manchester it was much too far for me to go home on a forty eight hour leave and [pause] he said, ‘You’re not going to stop on the station. That’s a certain fact,’ he said, ‘You’re going to come home with me. I live in Wisbech.’ Well, he was married. Unfortunately they couldn’t have children. And he lived with his mum and they kept the Railway Inn at Wisbech. So he and I used to go when we had a forty eight he used to take me and I used to help his mum. She was a widow by then. Incidentally Matthew took me to see the hotel. It’s still there.
Other: It’s a house now isn’t it? It was a house now, I think. Someone lived in it. It was still there. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. Somebody lived in the house. What more can I say about Fred? We were absolutely — we lived in each other’s pockets.
CB: Did you, did you keep up with him after the war?
SB: No. I didn’t.
CB: Who did —
SB: Regrettably.
CB: Yeah. Just come back to that but what happened? What? What rank was Ginger?
SB: My rank. Sergeant.
CB: Right.
SB: Then, well naturally we progressed after a year.
CB: Flight sergeant.
SB: Flight sergeant.
CB: And what happened to him after he was arrested?
SB: I did contact him once. Something went wrong. He went to St Athan. South Wales. I believe it was an engineering.
CB: It was an engineering school.
SB: I believe. I don’t know.
CB: It was the School of Engineering. Yes.
SB: I don’t know.
CB: Yeah.
SB: I don’t.
CB: Ok. I think just one other thing. Who did you keep in contact with in the crew after the war?
SB: Only one. Ron. Ron Munday. I think that old Fred went. That’s all.
CB: So immediately after the war you had no contact with anybody.
SB: Market Harborough I went to.
CB: Yeah. Right. We’ll stop there for a break. Thank you.
[recording paused]
SB: Gave me an order see.
CB: Right. So what, we’ve talked about the dangers of what you were doing and clearly there was some amazing escapes, but the care, the aircraft was a colander on some occasions. The crew sometimes got wounded. In your case were you ever hit? And on what was the trip on which it happened?
SB: Yes. I was. I was wounded. We’d been instructed to bomb Stettin. Which was quite close to the place where they was building doodlebugs.
CB: Peenemunde.
SB: And I was wounded in a rather delicate position. And I won’t say any more about that.
CB: But in your role as a mid-upper gunner where were you in relation to the dangerous parts of the aeroplane?
SB: Well, I was just forward — backward. Sorry. Backward it would be wouldn’t it? Backward of the bomb bay. You could say within feet. Within feet. I knew probably first one they dropped when they went up in the air the aeroplane went.
CB: So of all the crew when the bombs went you were the one most relieved.
SB: Yes. Yes. I was.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. On many occasions. Yeah.
CB: Ok. And how many hours did you have to endure your discomfort after being hit on the way back?
SB: Five or six. There was blood all in my flying boot.
CB: There was a first aid kit in the aircraft. There was a first aid kit in the aircraft.
SB: Yeah. You couldn’t get at it. Your parachute, you couldn’t get at that.
CB: Right.
SB: As a mid-upper gunner you know.
CB: You sat on your parachute.
SB: No.
CB: Oh you didn’t.
SB: No. That was the position. Just close to the rear door.
CB: Right. But you couldn’t use the first aid kit.
SB: No. No.
CB: Ok.
SB: I can well remember when I was wounded. They got me out the turret. My bomb aimer was one Taffy. Taffy Evans. I could hear him say to Ron, I was conscious enough at the time, and ‘We got him out.’
CB: So, they lifted you out of the turret.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Then what happened?
SB: They took me to the — we had a bed.
CB: Right.
SB: Just by the main spar. And they just whacked me on the bed.
CB: Right.
SB: That was it. And then I went to sleep.
CB: So nobody then went into the turret in your place.
SB: No.
CB: No.
SB: There was nobody available.
CB: When you got back to East Kirkby what happened then? What was the sequence of events?
SB: I haven’t got a clue. When I say I aint got a clue I know because of what I was told.
CB: Which was?
SB: Our ground crew were there with the ambulance, well they didn’t drive the ambulance but they were there to assist getting me out of the aeroplane into the ambulance. There was no standing on ceremony. They whipped me off to RAF Rauceby.
CB: Which is the hospital near Sleaford.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Right. And when you were in the hospital what happened there?
SB: I don’t know. Well, when I say I don’t know. I’d been patched up by then. I’d also picked up another. Classed as a wound. I burst an eardrum. Ron came down quite quickly to assist me. So the story went. And in doing so I wasn’t breathing properly and I burst this. Dead as a doornail. And I can always, I always remember what they did it last. Repaired me.
CB: Right.
SB: I can always remember the guy that did it. I thought he was a brute. He drilled a hole through the bridge of the nose and put a tube in. He said it was a silver tube. Up, connected on the tube. And he put the ball part of it under his white gown and he said, ‘When I raise my finger,’ he said, ‘You raise yours that you acknowledge.’ He said, ‘That’s saying it’s gone around and around the head and blown it back.’ And he were pumping away and I [pause] and he looked at me. He said, ‘Good God man,’ he said, ‘You look as if you’re going to bloody faint. Go and stand in the corner.’ And that was that. A few days later I was back on flying.
CB: Amazing. Thank you. Your dad. Yeah.
SB: It’s not [pause] My dad was in the fire watching. He used to have a, they used to have a bit of string with a box on with a gas mask. And I said to my dad because he was, he worked at the coal mine issuing lamps for the miners. And he used to have to be up about 3 o’clock to get these for the people to start at six. But I used to say to my dad, ‘It’s pointless you being up for the bombing raid. The fire warden in the street. I’ll sit on the wall outside and I’ll do your shift for you.’ [laughs]
Other: Really.
SB: Yeah. I did. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Because this is the bombing of Manchester and Liverpool.
SB: It was the bombing of Manchester or Liverpool. We were straight between them. I think it was like twenty eight miles to Liverpool.
CB: And they flew near you because of the Manchester Ship Canal.
SB: That’s right. Yeah. They used to be up and down the ship canal a lot. Or the River Mersey. The krauts were always up and down there. Of course, there was, you can well imagine I mean they didn’t get a free flight. They were always been shot at and the bloody shrapnel was around your house and — [laughs] You would get the odd broken window about. Yeah. Yeah. Those were the days Matt.
Other: I suppose coming over from Germany they didn’t have to fly over much land ‘til they got, even over on the west side of the country there wasn’t typically a wide bit of the country to get over was it? That we’d notice.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Stanley Bradford
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-31
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABradfordS161031
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:03:52 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
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Stanley Bradford was working in a Reserved Occupation until he volunteered. The three services were represented but as he approached them in turn the army and navy both rejected him because of his work. The RAF said that since he was in Reserved Occupation he could only join as a volunteer for aircrew. He duly volunteered and began training as an air gunner. He went on to shoot down five aircraft and was awarded the DFM. He was injured on one operation and as a result of the pilot’s rapid descent to help him Stan also suffered a burst eardrum. After one operation their flight engineer had a breakdown and was replaced by another engineer whose crew had been shot down. Flying over Sweden they found themselves escorted by the Swedes and also guided by a searchlight beam towards home. On another occasion they came under attack from anti-aircraft fire from the Channel Islands when their navigation equipment was damaged. They were met and escorted home by a Typhoon from RAF Exeter.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Sweden
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
57 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
animal
bombing
Distinguished Flying Medal
Do 217
fear
Fw 190
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Me 109
RAF East Kirkby
RAF hospital Rauceby
RAF Padgate
RAF Scampton
recruitment
searchlight
superstition