1
25
60
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1450/43606/MKeelingGW2217141-151002-01.2.pdf
115d4634cc8af3733d01291792ddaae8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Keeling, George
G W Keeling
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Keeling, GW
Description
An account of the resource
One item. The collection concerns George W Keeling and contains 'The Short History of 640 Squadron’, including photographs records and newspaper clippings.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by George Keeling and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
A short history of 640 Squadron
Description
An account of the resource
A number of stories, recollections and events remembered by George who was part of the ground crew on the squadron. It also includes press coverage and a programme from an amateur dramatics production Georg appeared in post war.
There is also a copy of the Operational Order for Operation Chastise by 617 Squadron. There are also crew lists, and a copy of the squadron 540 for the operation.
It also has the pages from Flight Sergeant Stalley's Log book for the period July to October 1944. He was the rear gunner on Flight Lieutenant Melrose's crew on No 9 Squadron at Bardney. During this period the squadron attacked the Tirpitz twice, once from Archangel.
There is also the Memories and Reflections of the German civil engineer that was in charge of the rebuilding of the dams damaged in the Dams Operation.
There are two newspaper cuttings from 2005 regarding the military burial of a 640 Squadron crew that had been shot down on the 24 March 1944. One was from The Daily Telegraph from 2 September 2005. There is also a letter George wrote to the Times giving some background to the story.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
George Keeling
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-01-07
1945-04-07
1944-03-24
2005-09-02
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Memoir
Text. Personal research
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
57 printed sheets
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MKeelingGW2217141-151002-01
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
4 Group
617 Squadron
640 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
bombing of the Creil/St Leu d’Esserent V-1 storage areas (4/5 July 1944)
bouncing bomb
debriefing
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
entertainment
final resting place
flight engineer
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
love and romance
memorial
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
nose art
operations room
pilot
RAF Leconfield
RAF Lissett
superstition
tactical support for Normandy troops
Tirpitz
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1649/26457/SFoxleeBT404595v10010-87.1.pdf
03fac2ac967225ff07de3534d7e59c97
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Casswell, Robert Ivan. Flight Lieutenant Bertie Foxlee DFC DFM
Description
An account of the resource
4 Items. Photographs of Bertie Foxlee as part of Flight Lieutenant M Martin's crew and his logbook showing 40 operations on Hampden, Manchester and Lancaster on 455, 50 and 617 Squadron as air gunner.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Foxlee, BT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bertie Foxlee’s flying log book for observer’s and air gunners
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SFoxleeBT404595v10010-87
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for observer’s and air gunner’s for B T Foxlee, wireless operator/air gunner, covering the period from 14 April 1941 to 15 October 1947. Detailing his flying training operations flown and instructor duties. He was stationed at RCAF Calgary, RCAF Mossbank, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Yatesbury, RAF Saltby, RAF Swinderby, RAF Wigsley, RAF Scampton, RAF Skellingthorpe, RAF Finningley, RAF Whitchurch Heath (aka RAF Tilstock), RAF Coningsby, RAF Woodhall Spa, RAF Lichfield, RAAF Cressy, RAF Rathmines, RAAF Williamtown and RAAF East Sale. Aircraft flown in were Norseman, Tiger Moth, Battle, Dominie, Proctor, Hampden, Anson, Manchester, Lancaster, Wellington, Whitley, Dakota, Oxford, Beaufort, Liberator, Catalina, Flagship, Seagull and Lincoln. He flew a total of 44 operations, 15 night operations with 455 Squadron, 18 night operations with 50 Squadron and 1 daylight and 11 night operations with 617 Squadron. Targets were Borkum, Emden, Hamburg, Munster, Cologne, Heligoland, Kiel, Lorient, Essen, Dortmund, Bremen, Saarbrucken, Mainz, Baltic, Osanbruck, Bingen, Kassel, Karlsruhe, Frankfurt, Mohne Dam, St Paulo, Leghorn, Dortmund Ems canal, Antheor Viaduct, Blida, Liege and Dieppe. His pilot on operations was Squadron Leader Martin DSO DFC. This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1942-01-02
1942-01-10
1942-01-11
1942-01-15
1942-01-16
1942-01-26
1942-01-28
1942-02-21
1942-02-22
1942-02-24
1942-02-25
1942-02-27
1942-03-07
1942-03-10
1942-03-13
1942-03-14
1942-04-15
1942-04-16
1942-05-30
1942-06-01
1942-06-02
1942-06-25
1942-06-26
1942-07-24
1942-07-26
1942-07-27
1942-07-29
1942-07-30
1942-07-31
1942-08-01
1942-08-12
1942-08-13
1942-08-14
1942-08-15
1942-08-17
1942-08-18
1942-08-24
1942-08-25
1942-08-27
1942-08-28
1942-09-01
1942-09-02
1942-09-03
1942-09-04
1942-09-05
1942-09-08
1942-09-09
1942-09-10
1942-09-11
1942-09-13
1942-09-14
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
1943-07-15
1943-07-16
1943-07-24
1943-07-25
1943-09-15
1943-09-16
1943-12-20
1943-12-23
1943-12-24
1943-12-30
1944-01-04
1944-01-21
1944-01-25
1944-02-08
1944-02-12
1944-02-13
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Algeria
Australia
Belgium
Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Algeria--Blida
Belgium--Liège
Canada--Red Deer River (Alberta and Saskatchewan)
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Rutland
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Wiltshire
France--Cannes Region
France--Dieppe
France--Lorient
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Emden (Lower Saxony)
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Saarbrücken
Italy--Bologna
Italy--Livorno
New South Wales--Lake Macquarie
New South Wales--Newcastle
Victoria--Ballarat
Victoria--Longford
Germany--Bingen (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Borkum
Victoria
Germany--Möhne River Dam
New South Wales
North Africa
Canada
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
14 OTU
25 OTU
27 OTU
455 Squadron
50 Squadron
617 Squadron
81 OTU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
B-24
Battle
bombing
Bombing and Gunnery School
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
C-47
Catalina
Dominie
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Hampden
Lancaster
Lincoln
Manchester
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Proctor
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Finningley
RAF Lichfield
RAF Saltby
RAF Scampton
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Tilstock
RAF Wigsley
RAF Woodhall Spa
RAF Yatesbury
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Whitley
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1649/26455/SFoxleeBT404595v10003.1.jpg
b92a33cf386289945a1fa26aed0f9076
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Casswell, Robert Ivan. Flight Lieutenant Bertie Foxlee DFC DFM
Description
An account of the resource
4 Items. Photographs of Bertie Foxlee as part of Flight Lieutenant M Martin's crew and his logbook showing 40 operations on Hampden, Manchester and Lancaster on 455, 50 and 617 Squadron as air gunner.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Foxlee, BT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bomber crew and presentation of silver aircraft
Description
An account of the resource
Top - seven aircrew wearing various uniform or flying clothing standing in line under the engine of a bomber. Mick Martin is third from the right. Bertie Foxlee is on the left. Bottom - 22nd June 1943 Hungaria restaurant in London following the investiture at the Palace. Guy Gibson had been presented with the silver Lancaster. Next to him is Roy Chadwick and on the right Group Captain John Whitworth looks on.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two b/w photographs mounted on an album page
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SFoxleeBT404595v10003
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
617 Squadron
aircrew
Chadwick, Roy (1893-1947)
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
pilot
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1254/36045/PBakerWB16040005.1.jpg
dcec6aa3989d4d0ee6e7c202352985a6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baker, William Benjamin
Biff Baker
W B Baker
Description
An account of the resource
45 items. The collection concerns William Benjamin "Biff" Baker DFC (Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents art work and and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 115 and 626 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Pamela Baker and catalogued by Nigel Huckins and Peter Adams.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baker, WB
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[photograph]
R.A.F. School of Administration [crest] and Accountancy, Hereford
Vivian of Hereford
No. 25 Elementary Course. Syndicate "V." 28/3/45 to 23/5/45.
P/O. Shaw P/O. Smith P/O. Swetland P/O. Thomson P/O. Wade D.F.C. F/O. Weston, D.F.C.
F/O. Lane’ D.F.C. F/O. Miles, D.F.M. P/O. Minard F/Lt. Oele, D.F.C. F/O. Parkin. D.F.M. F/O. Phillips, D.F.M. F/O. Priest F/O. Russell
P/O. Brotherton F/L. Chattington, D.F.C. P/O Croysdill, D.F.M. F/O. Derham, D.F.M. F/O. Dixon, D.F.C. F/O. Emra F/O. Farnborough
F/O. Fox P/O. Golding, D.F.M.
F/L. Adair F/O. Baker, D.F.C. F/L Gibson W/Cdr. Shepard S/Ldr. Batwell F/O. Bannister F/O. Bragan
[page break]
[painting]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Course photograph and Lancaster painting
Description
An account of the resource
Top - course photograph of thirty officers wearing tunics or battledress sitting and standing in four rows. Captioned 'No 25 Elementary Course. Syndicate "V", 28/3/45 to 23/5/45', lists name of those on photograph, F/O Baker front row second from left.'.
Bottom - colour painting of three Lancasters with upkeep bombs at low level in "V" formation over water.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03-28
1945-05-23
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Herefordshire
England--Hereford
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph and one colour painting mounted on an album page
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBakerWB16040005
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
617 Squadron
aircrew
arts and crafts
bouncing bomb
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Lancaster
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1236/18433/PThompsonKG15010154.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1236/18433/PThompsonKG15010156.2.jpg
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b72bbfe8ff455163eed1fe28ea07b295
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1236/18433/PThompsonKG15010160.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1236/18433/PThompsonKG15010161.2.jpg
73dd45a95c553f7a536a40e4566a06d3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Thompson, Keith G
K G Thompson
Description
An account of the resource
95 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Keith Thompson DFC (1238603 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents, photographs and training material as well as his navigation logs. He flew operations as a navigator with 101 and 199 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Mark S Thompson and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Thompson, KG
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
THE LAST TAKE-OFF
[sketch]
RAF says goodbye to ‘the Lanc’
By RONALD WALKER
THE R.A.F. is saying farewell to the Lancaster, the four-engined heavy bomber which became the major weapon of Bomber Command during the war.
The last Lancaster made its last “operational” flight yesterday – a tour of Coastal Command stations. Since the war the Lancaster has been serving as a submarine chaser.
And on Monday the plane will take off from St. Mawgan, Cornwall, on its final flight – to its makers, Avro, to be broken up for scrap. Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Harris, wartime chief of Bomber Command, said this of the Lancaster: “To my mind it was the greatest single factor in winning the war.”
During the war 7,366 were built. At peak strength, in 1944, Bomber Command had 42 squadrons of them. They dropped 608,612 tons of high explosive bombs and 51,500,000 incendiary bombs.
They wrecked the battleship Tirpitz; they breached the Mohne and Eder dams, and bombed Hitler’s eyrie at Berchtesgaden.
[inserted] [underlined] 15th OCT. 1956 [/inserted] [/underlined]
[page break]
[advertisements]
[page break]
[photograph]
SEAMASTER. After loss of the first prototype, Martin’s second XP6M-1 attack seaplane was well advanced in its flight trials when that, too, was unfortunately lost in November.
Span 100 feet.
[partially obscured photograph]
D.H. 110. Still unnamed, this twin boom all-weather fighter is to replace the Royal Navy’s Sea Venoms in due course, and has recently been equipped with the pointed radome shown in the illustration. Note also the pylons for various underwing loads.
Span 51 feet.
[photograph]
STARFIGHTER. Lockheed’s revolutionary XF-104 was unveiled early last year, and plans have now been made for three versions, the F-104A, RF-104A and F-104B. The Starfighter has been credited with a speed of 1,500 m.p.h.; it is 55 feet long and spans only 22 feet.
[page break]
The Lancaster Leaves
A solemn and rather sentimental occasion marked the official “retirement” in October of the R.A.F.’s last Lancaster, the famous wartime bomber which made over 156,000 sorties against the enemy, and dropped over 600,000 tons of high explosive bombs and more than 50 million incendiaries. There was no task the Lancasters could not perform, from high-level saturation raids down to tree-top missions against troop concentrations. Their crews sank the battleship [italics] Tirpitz, [/italics] breached the Mohne and Eder dams, and smashed other precision targets such as the V.2 rocket pens at Peenemunde. Subsequently they brought home many thousands of prisoners of war. In post-war years the Lancaster has been largely flown in Coastal Command in both operational and training roles. (Incidentally, the R.A.F. Lancaster which is used for aircraft recognition photography, and which was mentioned on p. 218 of last August’s [italics] Journal, [/italics] is still going strong.)
JANUARY 1957
[photograph]
[page break]
But the g[missing letters]
[photograph]
[page break]
[inserted] [underlined] 15 OCT ’56 [/inserted] [/underlined]
[missing letters]STIONS TODAY
Must this veteran vanish?
RONALD WALKER reported [italics] (Page Nine, Thursday) [/italics] that the last Lancaster bomber is to be scrapped.
I am sure I express the opinion of many ex-Bomber Command men in asking if something can be done to prevent this aircraft being broken up and forgotten. Some odd corner of an airfield or site at the makers could be found. I think that because of the part the Lancaster played in the war it deserves to be preserved as in the case of the Hurricane and Spitfire.
K. [indecipherable letter]. BONES, Wellstead-gardens, Westcliff-on-Sea, Essex.
[photograph]
Ronald Walker said last night: “Neither the R.A.F. nor A.V. Roe, the makers, plan to keep a Lancaster. The cost to maintain it in flying condition would not make it worth while.”
Support, from an [missing words]
[page break]
[inserted] circular mark around article [/inserted]
Dam Buster flies off
A guard of honour lined the runway and an R.A.F. band played the Dam Busters march as the last Lancaster in the service of the Royal Air Force flew off from St. Mawgan, Cornwall, yesterday, for the breakers’ yard.
Air Vice Marshal “Gus” Walker, of Bomber Command, said: “Those who flew in the Lancaster during the war will feel a pang in their heart at the passing of this faithful old friend.”
[page break]
[obscured photograph and text]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cuttings reporting and commenting on last operational flight by a Lancaster
Description
An account of the resource
Cutting annotated 15 Oct 1956, reports last operational flight of a Coastal Command Lancaster.
A magazine cutting January 1957 reports the last operational Lancaster flight.
A cutting of a letter suggesting that the Lancaster should be preserved not scrapped.
A cutting records last operational flight.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1956-10-15
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Newspaper cuttings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PThompsonKG15010154, PThompsonKG15010155, PThompsonKG15010156, PThompsonKG15010157, PThompsonKG15010158, PThompsonKG15010159, PThompsonKG15010160, PThompsonKG15010161
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1956-10-15
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
Angela Gaffney
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Workflow A completed
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF St Mawgan
Tirpitz
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/759/17832/PCruickshankG1501-0001.1.jpg
c83f2424dfe2b7b5c75d56f552e325cb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cruickshank, Gordon
G Cruickshank
Description
An account of the resource
76 items. Concerns the life and wartime career of Flight Lieutenant Gordon Cruickshank DFM who joined the Royal Air Force in 1938. After training as an air gunner he flew 52 operations on Manchester and Lancaster with 50, 560 and 44 Squadrons. Collection consists of a 1956 memoir with original photographs donated separately, a memoir of his life on squadron from December 1941, his logbooks. a further notebook with memoir, playing cards annotated with his operations, official documents, lucky mascots, medals and badges, dog tags, memorabilia, crew procedures, as well as photographs of aircraft, targets and people.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Linda Hinman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cruickshank, G
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
C, 2550. COLOGNE: Widespread damage is revealed in this picture which shows a section of the modern part of the city. The broad tree-lined street running across the picture from left to right is the Luxemburger-strasse.
CH. 9687. MOEHNE DAM: The breach of about 200 feet width in the Moehne Dam. It can be seen that the lake has been drained of the major part of its contents but the water is still pouring through the breach. The foam and disturbed water visible immediately below the bridge covers the space where before the destruction was situated the Power Station. The water draining from the lake overflowed and destroyed the dam surrounding the Compensating Basin. The Auxiliary Power Station, stands on an island on the remainder of the dam.
CH. 9750. EDER DAM: The south-east end of the storage lake with the Dam breached between the two valve houses at a point about 400 feet from its western end. The breach appears to measure about 180 feet at the crown of the dam, narrowing to about 100 feet at its lowest visible point. Water is still seen pouring through the gap flowing fast downstream towards Kassel.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Damage descriptions for post operation photographs
Description
An account of the resource
Damage descriptions to go with post operation photographs of Cologne, Moehne and Eder Dams. Relates to photographs C.2550, CH.9687 and CH.9750.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page typewritten document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCruickshankG1501-0001
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Eder Dam
Germany--Möhne River Dam
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Frank Batten
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-05
bombing
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2052/42875/PSouterKP2121.2.jpg
41031634394ac2540b00763414be43b3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Souter, Kenneth Place
K P Souter
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-07-10
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Souter, KP
Description
An account of the resource
30 items. An oral history interview with Kenneth Souter (b. 1919, 129001 Royal Air Force), his log books and photographs. He flew operations as a fighter pilot with 73 Squadron in North Africa and as a test pilot. After the war he flew Lancasters during the filming of The Dam Busters film in 1954.
The collection was catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dambusters Scene
Description
An account of the resource
Actors Michael Redgrave and Richard Todd playing Barnes Wallis and Guy Gibson having a discussion over a meal in the Mess. From the filming of The Dam Busters film.
It is captioned 'E54.1.PROD.117'.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PSouterKP2121
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1954
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1954
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
aircrew
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
entertainment
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
mess
pilot
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/787/9358/LMaltbyDJH60335v1.2.pdf
b23af7b66c08924d51d2b516d0b72ec7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Maltby, David John Hatfeild
D J H Maltby
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. The collection concerns Squadron Leader David John Hatfeild Maltby DSO, DFC (1920 - 1943, 60335 Royal Air Force) and consists of his pilot's flying log book and documents. David Maltby completed a tour operations as a pilot in Hampdens, Manchester and Lancasters with 106 and 97 Squadrons at RAF Coningsby before being posted to 617 Squadron at RAF Scampton. He successfully attacked the Möhne Dam in May 1943. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by the Maltby Family and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />Additional information on David John Hatfeild Maltby is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/114788/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Maltby, DJH
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
David Maltby's pilot's flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Royal Air Force pilot's flying log book for Squadron Leader David Maltby covering the period from 20 August 1940 to 13 September 1943. Detailing his flying training and operations flown and instructor duties. He was stationed at RAF Uxbridge, RAF Paignton, RAF Anstey, RAF Grantham, RAF Cranage, RAF Upper Heyford, RAF Coningsby, RAF Wigsley, RAF Dunholme, RAF Fulbeck and RAF Scampton. Aircraft flown were, Tiger Moth, Anson, Oxford, Hampden, Manchester and Lancaster. He flew a total of 32 night operations, 5 with 106 Squadron, 23 with 97 Squadron and 4 with 617 Squadron. Targets in Denmark, Germany, and Italy and Norway were Duisberg, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Kiel, Karlsruhe, Essen, Magdeberg, Hamburg, Heligoland, Trondheim, Stuttgart, Warnermund, Copenhagen, Mannheim, Sassnitz, Möhne Dam, San Polo D’Enza, Leghorn and Milan. He flew as a second pilot on operations with Flight Lieutenant Coton. He was killed returning from an aborted operation to the Dortmund Ems Canal 14/15 September 1943.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LMaltbyDJH60335v1
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1941-06-11
1941-06-12
1941-06-15
1941-06-16
1941-06-18
1941-06-19
1941-06-21
1941-06-22
1941-06-24
1941-06-25
1941-08-02
1941-08-03
1941-08-05
1941-08-06
1941-08-07
1941-08-08
1941-08-12
1941-08-13
1941-08-16
1941-08-17
1941-08-18
1941-08-19
1941-10-23
1941-10-24
1941-10-26
1941-10-27
1941-10-31
1941-11-01
1941-11-07
1941-11-08
1941-11-15
1941-11-16
1942-04-08
1942-04-09
1942-04-27
1942-04-28
1942-04-29
1942-05-04
1942-05-05
1942-05-07
1942-05-08
1942-05-09
1942-05-16
1942-05-17
1942-05-19
1942-05-20
1942-05-22
1942-05-23
1942-05-26
1942-05-27
1942-06-08
1942-06-09
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
1943-07-15
1943-07-16
1943-07-24
1943-07-25
1943-07-29
1943-07-30
1943-09-15
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Denmark
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Norway
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Denmark--Copenhagen
England--Cheshire
England--Devon
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Shropshire
England--Warwickshire
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Sassnitz
Italy--Livorno
Italy--Milan
Italy--San Polo d'Enza
Norway--Trondheim
Italy--Po River Valley
Germany--Möhne River Dam
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
106 Squadron
16 OTU
1654 HCU
617 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Flying Training School
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Hampden
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
killed in action
Lancaster
Manchester
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Ansty
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cranage
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Fulbeck
RAF Grantham
RAF Paignton
RAF Scampton
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Uxbridge
RAF Wigsley
Tiger Moth
Tirpitz
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/759/17721/PCruickshankG1501-0008.2.jpg
756e81e3b82acfa14f5a014cd88ed383
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/759/17721/PCruickshankG1501-0009.2.jpg
c0edfcd875c9db539309abbe246e6169
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cruickshank, Gordon
G Cruickshank
Description
An account of the resource
76 items. Concerns the life and wartime career of Flight Lieutenant Gordon Cruickshank DFM who joined the Royal Air Force in 1938. After training as an air gunner he flew 52 operations on Manchester and Lancaster with 50, 560 and 44 Squadrons. Collection consists of a 1956 memoir with original photographs donated separately, a memoir of his life on squadron from December 1941, his logbooks. a further notebook with memoir, playing cards annotated with his operations, official documents, lucky mascots, medals and badges, dog tags, memorabilia, crew procedures, as well as photographs of aircraft, targets and people.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Linda Hinman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cruickshank, G
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Eder Dam
Description
An account of the resource
Reconnaissance photograph showing lake on left with breached dam half way up on left. Farmland fields top right. Captioned between page 47-48 of 1956 Memoir '[heading] 617 Squadron [/heading]
[caption - written vertically on LHS of page presumably for landscape orientation of photo] 'Elder [sic] Dam The south-east end of the storage lake with the dam breached between the two valve houses at a point about 400 ft from its western end. Water is still pouring through the gap flowing fast downstream towards Kassel'. On the reverse 'Eder Dam, CH.9750'.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCruickshankG1501-0008, PCruickshankG1501-0009
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Waldeck (Hesse)
Germany--Kassel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-05
617 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
reconnaissance photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1554/27350/MMcDermottC1119618-161216-08.2.pdf
c304e96d8af4f4109fd36907facf2aec
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
McDermott, Colin
C McDermott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McDermott, C
Description
An account of the resource
87 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Colin McDermott (1119618 Royal Air Force). He served as an air gunnery instructor and flew operations as an air gunner with 98 Squadron. Contains his log book, papers and photographs and includes issues of 'Evidence in Camera'. <br /><br />The collection also contains albums of photographs from his training at <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1696">Evanton</a> in 1943, taken during his service in <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1699">Denmark </a>and some <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1698">duplicate </a>photographs.<br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Barbara Bury and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
VOLUME 3 NUMBER I0 JUNE 7th 1943
EVIDENCE IN Camera
[drawing]
MORGAN
ISSUED BY AIR MINISTRY A.C.A.S.(1)
FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
[page break]
EVIDENCE IN CAMERA
1. This O.U.O. document may be issued to Officers' Mess and Station Reference Libraries. (K.R. & A.C.I. 882. 2236(c). 2287).
2. The only legitimate use which may be made of official documents or information derived from them is for the furtherance of the public service in the performance of official duties.
3. The publication of official documents, information from them, reproduction of extracts or their use for personal controversy, or for any private or public purpose without due authority is a breach of official trust under the OFFICIAL SECRETS ACTS. 1911 and 1920, and will be dealt with accordingly. (K.R. & A.C.I. 1071, 1072, 2238).
4. Copies not required for record purposes should be disposed of as Secret Waste in accordance with A.M.O. A.411/41.
SEE FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS ON BACK OF COVER
[page break]
[cartoon]
Scott.
"You never know who's listening."
217
[page break]
ANTI-INVASION PREPARATIONS AT THE HAGUE
[photograph]
[photograph]
Most of the area in which demolition is seen to have taken place lies between Sport Laan and Laan Van Meedervoort. The lay-out of the anti-tank ditch, parts of which are already being excavated, is apparent. Arrows show the approximate positions from which the oblique photographs on the next page were taken.
[photograph]
Demolition of houses for anti-invasion preparations has been proceeding at THE HAGUE. The areas indicated, to the West of the town, have been cleared (as seen in the lower photographs).
218
[page break]
[photograph]
DEMOLITION AT THE HAGUE
Left: This oblique photograph gives an impression of the gigantic proportions of the ditch and the area cleared of houses. It was taken looking S.E. down the Stadhouders Laan.
[photograph]
Right: The ditch is seen in the background in this photograph of the area a little further west. It was taken from above the bridge over the canal at the junction of Sport Laan and Kranenburg Weg.
219
[page break]
ANTI-TANK OBSTACLE AT SCHEVENINGEN
[photograph]
[photograph]
An anti-tank obstacle constructed along the front at SCHEVENINGEN (The Hague) at the entrance to the Port. (A) 'Teeth' set at an angle in concrete beds. (B) Pill-box. (C) Wire. (D) M.G. posts covered with netting.
220
[page break]
FURTHER FLOODING IN RUHR VALLEY
[photograph]
[photograph]
Photographs taken two days after the breaching of the Moehne [sic] Dam revealed further considerable flooding of the Ruhr valley near DUISBURG where the Ruhr joins the Rhine over fifty miles, in a direct line, from the Dam. Raffelberg Bridge (inset), which connected the two Mulheim suburbs of Styrum and Speldorf, was damaged during one of the recent attacks and the ruins were probably swept away by the floods.
221
[page break]
U.S.B.C. ATTACKS ON U-BOAT BASES
[photograph]
Direct hits were scored during the attack by U.S.B.C. on LORIENT, 17.5.43, when the U-Boat Shelters (A) and the Northern Power Station (B) were the targets. Many bursts can be seen at both these points including further hits on the Radial Slips, U-Boat Workshops and the rail tracks leading to them. Severe damage was also done to the Northern Power Station.
222
[page break]
Aircraft of U.S.B.C. attacked BORDEAUX on 17.5.43 and direct hits were scored on the lock gates (A) and the Matford Aero Engine Works (B). The photograph on the right was taken at an early stage of the attack, and later it was seen that the gates had been breached by bombs and the two basins connected with the U-Boat Shelters were emptying rapidly. (See below.)
[photograph]
[photograph]
223
[page break]
STEEL AND ARMAMENT WORKS DAMAGED
[photograph]
Considerable damage was caused during the R.A.F. attack on BOCHUM on 13/14.5.43 to the important steel and armament works. Vereinigte Stahlwerke A.G. Seriously damaged buildings included the rolling mill (A), the steel furnaces (B) and finishing sections (C). There was destruction to business/residential property, much of which is seen still burning.
224
[page break]
[photograph]
DUISBURG. Direct hits (arrows) on the roofs and platforms of the main Railway Station were registered in the attack of 12/13.5.43. Additional damage in the town was also caused in the extensive areas of business/residential property outlined.
[photograph]
ESSEN. The heavy engineering works of Fr. Krupps A.G. sustained further damage during the attacks of 30.4.43 and 1.5.43. An area of 8,700 sq. yds. of the large machine shops (A) was destroyed. The machine shop (B) was destroyed by fire over an area of 16,000 sq, yds. while the machine shop (C) received a direct hit which damaged the end of one bay and stripped roofing over a large area.
225
[page break]
KNOW YOUR PORTS
[photograph]
[photograph]
[inserted] Railway Station
Ferry Landing
South Harbour
Kronborg Harbour [/inserted]
HELSINGØR (ELSINØRE). This Danish port is on the Eastern side of the island of ZEALAND, facing the mainland of Sweden. The Elsinøre Shipbuilding and Engineering Co. (A) is concerned chiefly with the building and repair of M/vs. Sperrbrechers are also converted here and one can be seen in dry dock (B). Kronborg Castle (C) (also inset), the reputed home of Hamlet, was built in 1577 and restored after a fire in 1635.
226
[page break]
[boxed] CAMOUFLAGED STORAGE TANKS AT ROTTERDAM [/boxed]
[photograph]
Above: Uncamouflaged edible-oil storage tanks (A) on a quay at the Junction of the Wilhelmina Haven and the Nieuwe Maas River at SCHIEDAM.
[photograph]
Left: The two groups of tanks have been "mounded" with overhead netting (A) on which dummy trees (B) have been placed.
227
[page break]
EHRANG MARSHALLING YARD AND TRIER RAILWAY WORKSHOPS
[photograph]
[photograph]
[photograph]
The important Marshalling Yard (A) and Engine Shed (B) at EHRANG and the Railway Carriage and Wagon Workshops (C) at TRIER are on opposite banks of the River Moselle. Oblique views of the Ehrang Marshalling Yard (above) and the Trier Workshops (right), which deal with traffic between N.W. Germany (via Coblence and Cologne) and Eastern France (via Metz and Strasbourg). The Trier Broadcasting Station (D) operates on the medium waveband.
228 - 229
[page break]
[boxed] GERMAN ARMOURED CARS [/boxed]
[photograph]
[photograph]
FOUR-WHEELED ARMOURED CAR
This is the principal German armoured car. With its four-wheel steering and four-wheel drive it has a good cross-country performance. Its armament consists of a 2 cm. heavy M.G. and one L.M.G.
[photograph]
[boxed] Air Photographs of this vehicle were given on Pages 210 and 211 (Annotation C on latter page) of Vol. 3, No. 9. [/boxed]
230
[page break]
[photograph]
[photograph]
[photograph]
SIX WHEELED ARMOURED CAR
This German six-wheeled armoured car is not as common as the four and eight-wheeled vehicles. The overhead wireless grid, which is a German characteristic, may not be seen on all six-wheeled armoured cars.
231
[page break]
INUNDATION ON THE FRENCH COAST
[photograph]
[photograph]
Flooding of some of the river valleys on the French coast is almost certainly caused deliberately in order to make these valleys obstacles to lateral movement along the coast. The vertical and oblique photographs above show inundation of the SAANE Valley at QUIBERVILLE, West of Dieppe. What is possibly a control house (arrow) can be seen at the river mouth and the extent of the flooding is probably controlled by sluices. An anti-tank wall has been constructed leading from the cliff.
232
[page break]
[photograph]
Further inundation in the Dieppe area is evident at the mouth of the River Dun, ST. AUBIN-SUR-MER.
[photograph]
In POURVILLE, at the mouth of the River Scie, west of Dieppe, demolition has been carried out on the strip of land between the inundated area and the sea.
233
[page break]
[boxed] LANCASTER AIRCRAFT IN FLIGHT [/boxed]
[photograph]
These enlargements from a cine film show Lancasters on their way to attack COMINES Power Station.
[photograph]
[photograph]
[photograph]
Right: The dorsal turret of one of the Lancasters.
[photograph]
234
[page break]
[boxed] G.A.F. AIRCRAFT OF RUSSIAN DESIGN [/boxed]
The B.71, which is used by the G.A.F for target towing, is in fact the Russian SB-2, built under licence in Czechoslovakia.
[photograph]
Above: This B.71 in flight shows clearly its G.A.F. wing markings.
[photograph]
Above: A B.71 made conspicuous by its light coloured tail unit.
[photograph]
Left: Two more B.71s with a Do 17 at KOLN/OSTHEIM.
[photograph]
Above: A B.71 is here seen at ESBJERG with a Junkers W.34. B.71s are fairly often seen on German airfields, especially those near Flak Training Schools.
Right: At TRONDHEIM/VAERNES a B.71 on one of the runways with a Ju 52 and a W.34.
[photograph]
235
[page break]
FIGHTER AIRCRAFT SHELTERS AT LILLE/VENDEVILLE
[photograph]
LILLE/VENDEVILLE Aerodrome, constructed by the French in 1938 and used by the R.A.F., was developed by the Germans after their invasion. It is well equipped with all airfield facilities and the dispersal (A) for bombers is extensive. The latest addition, however, is a number of small fighter aircraft shelters (B) erected on the landing ground boundary.
236
[page break]
STAVANGER/SOLA AND STAVANGER/FORUS AERODROMES
[photograph]
STAVANGER/SOLA Aerodrome (A) was a Norwegian civil aerodrome with two runways, 1,440 and 1,000 yards in length, but after the German occupation the runways were lengthened to over 2,000 yards. A third runway of similar length and a perimeter track were constructed. Work was begun at STAVANGER/FORUS Aerodrome (B) at the end of April, 1940. One of the three intersecting runways is over 2,000 yards in length.
237
[page break]
[boxed] PROMINENT LANDMARKS [/boxed]
[photograph]
Above: CAP d'ANTIFER, North of Le Havre, is a salient point. The white circular light tower is approximately 400 ft. in height. The chalk cliffs between Cap d'Antifer and Saint Jouin, about three miles southward, are perpendicular and when the sun shines on them are visible from a great distance.
[photograph]
Left: Île Noire with its white, square light tower. The eastern part of the boom across the Morlaix Estuary is seen. Large buoys are set at intervals with irregularly spaced floats between them.
238
[page break]
[photograph]
BOULOGNE. Colonne de la Grande Armée (at extreme left), the top of which is elevated 459 ft., and the round tower, surmounted by a cupola, of Notre Dame Cathedral (at the right) are conspicuous objects.
[photograph]
LE TOUQUET. The light towers are prominent landmarks. The old tower (left) is painted with black and white horizontal bands.
239
[page break]
PROBLEM PICTURE.
[photograph]
WHAT IS THIS?
Answer at Foot of This Page.
CORRECTION: Vol.3. No. 9. Page 213.
Transpose the two captions "Three-quarter rear view" and "Three-quarter front view."
It will be noted that the radiator on this armoured car is at the rear.
[boxed] ANSWER TO PROBLEM PICTURE ABOVE.
Adcock D/F Station, East of AMSTERDAM, with earthing system at the foot of each mast showing distinctly. [/boxed]
240
[page break]
(4276), 51-9832. 2900. 7/6/43. 45.246.
C. & E. LAYTON LTD, London, E.C.4.
[page break]
EVIDENCE IN CAMERA
This weekly document will consist of a collection of illustrations varying in number in each issue according to the quantity of material of sufficient interest and suitable for reproduction that is received.
2. Requests for material to be included in this document should be submitted to Command Headquarters, who, after consideration, will submit them to Air Ministry, A.D.I.(Ph.). Any useful suggestions as regards contents will receive full consideration and will be welcomed.
3. Distribution is carried out by Air Ministry (A.I. I) and any requests for fewer or additional copies must be made through Group Headquarters who will ensure the maximum possible economy.
4. Under no circumstances must any of the illustrations be reproduced by Units in the British Isles. Further copies can be printed from the existing blocks and independent photographic reproduction would be a waste of material and labour to the detriment of the National War Effort.
5. The distribution of photographs to the general public is carried out through the Press who are supplied with photographs which have been specially selected for their general interest and have been published after careful consideration by the Security Branch and by the Ministry of Information; it is therefore unnecessary as well as undesirable to communicate any of the contents of this document, either directly or by discussion in public places, to persons not enjoying the privilege of serving in H.M. Forces.
6. The document has not been officially graded as Secret or Confidential in order that the widest distribution may be given, but Commanding Officers should use their discretion to ensure that the appropriate information is available only to those whose work will benefit.
7. The necessity for security cannot be over emphasised, for although this document is not marked Secret some of its contents may occasionally be of value to the enemy. Every care must be taken to prevent such information being disclosed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Evidence in Camera Vol 3 No 10
Description
An account of the resource
A magazine of aerial photography covering anti-invasion preparations at the Hague, anti-tank obstacles at Scheveningen, flooding from the Mohne Dam, U-boat bases and port damage, factories, railway stations, camouflaged storage tanks, marshalling yards, German armoured cars, deliberate flooding along the French coast, Lancasters in flight, German aircraft, Lille and Stavanger airfields, prominent landmarks at Le Havre, Morlaix, Boulogne and Le Touquet and a problem picture to be guessed featuring a direction finding station.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-06-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One 28 page booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MMcDermottC1119618-161216-08
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Duisburg
France--Lorient
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Essen
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Denmark--Helsingør
Germany--Trier
France--Quiberville
France--Dieppe
France--Comines
Norway--Trondheim
Germany--Ostheim vor der Rhön
France--Lille
Norway--Stavanger
France--Le Havre
France--Morlaix
France--Le Touquet-Paris-Plage
Netherlands--Amsterdam
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Netherlands--Hague
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
Netherlands--Hague
France
Germany--Möhne River Dam
Germany
Denmark
Netherlands
Norway
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Air Ministry
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Babs Nichols
aerial photograph
bombing
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Ju 52
Lancaster
reconnaissance photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1554/27345/MMcDermottC1119618-161216-07.2.pdf
6879feb34d5690bb4a4535c33131f524
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
McDermott, Colin
C McDermott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McDermott, C
Description
An account of the resource
87 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Colin McDermott (1119618 Royal Air Force). He served as an air gunnery instructor and flew operations as an air gunner with 98 Squadron. Contains his log book, papers and photographs and includes issues of 'Evidence in Camera'. <br /><br />The collection also contains albums of photographs from his training at <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1696">Evanton</a> in 1943, taken during his service in <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1699">Denmark </a>and some <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1698">duplicate </a>photographs.<br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Barbara Bury and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
VOLUME 3 – NUMBER 9 – MAY 31st 1943
EVIDENCE IN CAMERA
[Sketch]
ISSUED BY AIR MINISTRY A.C.A.S. (I) MORGAN
FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
[page break]
EVIDENCE IN CAMERA
1. This O.U.O. document may be issued to Officers’ Mess and Station Reference Libraries. (K.R.& A.C.I. 882, 2236(c), 2287).
2. The only legitimate use which may be made of official documents or information derived from them is for the furtherance of the public service in the performance of official duties.
3. The publication of official documents, information from them, reproduction of extracts or their use for personal controversy, or for any private or public purpose without due authority is a breach of official trust under the OFFICIAL SECRETS ACTS, 1911 and 1920, and will be dealt with accordingly. (K.R. & A.C.I. 1071, 1072, 2238).
4. Copies not required for record purposes should be disposed of as Secret Waste in accordance with A.M.O. A.411/41.
SEE FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS ON BACK OF COVER.
[page break]
[Sketch]
Scott.
“You never know who’s listening.”
193
[page break]
BOMB BURSTS ON KIEL SHIPBUILDING YARDS
[Photograph]
Liberator aircraft of U.S.B.C. flying over the smoke pall caused by the concentration of bomb bursts on and near the Shipbuilding Yards at KIEL (14.5.43). There are bursts on the workshops and slips of the Germania Yard and on the buildings of the Deutsche Werke Yard. The Police Barracks and Tramway Power House sustained hits in the concentration of bomb bursts (top left).
194
[page break]
[Photograph]
Later photographs showed that two 740 ton U-boats (A) had capsized in the submerged floating dock while a 380 ft. floating dock (B) was submerged and one wall completely destroyed. A direct hit was scored on a 1,600 ton U-boat (C) partly under netting. Damaged buildings in the Germania Yard included the Erecting and Testing Shop (D), Four covered slips (E), Shipwrights’ sheds (F), Straightening and tracing out sheds (G), Boiler House (H), Boiler Shop (I), Brass and Iron Foundries (J),. Timber Stores and Saw Mill (K). Some of the damage at the southern end of the Deutsche Werke AG. is indicated (arrows).
195
[page break]
FORMER AVIONS POTEZ AIRCRAFT FACTORY, MEAULTE, WRECKED
[Photograph]
[Photograph]
The S.N.C.A. du Nord (formerly Avions Potez) Factory at MEAULTE was severely damaged in a daylight attack by fighter escorted Fortresses of U.S.B.C. (13.5.43). Smoke from bomb bursts envelopes the target in this high oblique photograph. INSET: Three Fortress aircraft passing over the target at another stage of the attack. This smaller photograph may be plotted with that on the next page.
196
[page break]
[Photograph]
Severe damage was caused over an extensive area to buildings under camouflage netting (A). (See Pages 64 and 65, Vol. I, No. 2.) A four-bay stores building (B) received a direct hit, the main assembly shops (C) were damaged by blast and there were more direct hits on sub-assembly shops (D). Three-quarters of the hangars (E) were wrecked, one wing of the experimental shops was shattered and two wings damaged. A 375 ft. long building (G) was almost completely demolished, the transport garage (H), previously damaged, has only parts of the walls and roof framework remaining, while other buildings were damaged.
197
[page break]
PILLAR OF RAILWAY BRIDGE SWEPT AWAY
[Photograph]
When the flood from the Moehne [sic] Lake swept through the Dam breached by the R.A.F. (17.5.43) and along the Ruhr Valley, one of the pillars of this railway bridge at HERDECKE was carried away. Two tracks are suspended for a distance of about 30 yards. The bridge, approximately 30 miles in a direct line from the Dam, carried traffic between Dortmund and Hagen. The height which the flooding reached on each side of the valley is clearly evident.
198
[page break]
[Photograph]
The marshalling yard at DAHLHAUSEN was still flooded two days after the attack while scores of houses are still under water and a small factory (arrow) is partly inundated.
[Photograph]
The approach to the bridge and part of the road (A) at SCHWERTE were still flooded on 19.5.43. The railway embankment (B) is washed away over a length of 200 yards and an embankment (C) of filter beds for local water supply is destroyed.
199
[page break]
BALLOONS FLYING OVER SORPE DAM
[photograph]
Repair work and clearance of the road over the damaged crown of the SORPE DAM were seen in progress two days after the attack. Balloons had been brought to the dam. Thirteen were flying at medium altitude and seven were bedded down when this photograph was taken.
200
[page break]
HELIGOLAND AND DUNE ISLANDS BOMBED
[Photograph]
Bombs were dropped on the islands of HELIGOLAND and DUNE when aircraft of U.S.B.C. made an attack on 15.5.43. The main weight of the attack fell on Heligoland where bursts (A) were photographed on and around the Barracks and Artillery Depot. At the same time, bombs were exploding (B) on the airfield at Dune, in and around the small harbour (C) and straddling the aircraft shelters (D). Later in the attack bombs were dropped into the U-boat Harbour (E) and on or very close to the East Mole (F).
201
[page break]
“M” CLASS MINESWEEPERS
[Photograph]
Three “M” Class Minesweepers (216 ft.) leaving LA PALLICE. The vessel (A) is proceeding at approximately 13 knots. The wreck (B) is that of the French liner CHAMPLAIN, while there is a trawler type auxiliary (C).
202
[page break]
[Photograph]
Another “M” Class Minesweeper (A) leaving the Outer Port at LA PALLICE. There is a Möewe Class torpedo boat (B) in the smaller dry dock and a Sperrbrecher (440 ft.) (C) in the larger dry dock. A new lock (D), to the Wet Basin and U-Boat Shelters, is being constructed parallel to the existing dock. Part of the lock is roofed over (E).
203
[page break]
[Photograph]
KNOW YOUR PORTS – NAPLES
An important commercial Port, NAPLES is also used by all units of the Italian Fleet. It has considerable repair facilities and extensive quay space.
204 & 205
[page break]
CAMOUFLAGED LANDMARKS, STUTTGART
[Photograph]
Before camouflage the oval lake in the Theater Platz (A), the quadrangle of the Neues Schloss (B) and the Exhibition Hall (C) were conspicuous landmarks in STUTTGART. The main railway station is at (D).
206
[page break]
[Photograph]
STUTTGART. The lake has been covered over with material on framework and a dummy path painted across it (A). Clusters of dummy bushes are combined with paint to simulate gardens in the quadrangle (B), while the dome of the Exhibition Hall has been disruptively painted (C). The roof covering the Station platforms (D) was burned out in the attack of 22/23.11.42.
207
[page break]
JUNKERS 88
The Ju 88 is used in greater numbers than any other type of German aircraft.
[Photograph]
Above: Many Ju 88s and an He III (arrow) at TOURS/PARCAY-MESLAY.
[Photograph]
Left: Ju 88s near refuelling points at AALBORG/WEST.
Below: Ju 88s showing conspicuously against the uncamouflaged tarmacs at HORSCHING in Austria.
[Photograph]
208
[page break]
DORNIER FLYING-BOATS
The Do 18 and the Do 24, which have been largely replaced by the Bv 138 for long range reconnaissance, are now often used for Sea Rescue work.
[Photograph]
[Photograph]
[Photograph]
Top: Two Do 18s, near the large gantry crane for transporting aircraft, at NORDERNEY.
Centre: Three Do 24s at their moorings.
Left: A Do 24 in flight over the seaplane station at CHERBOURG/CHANTEREYNE.
209
[page break]
CAPTURED ENEMY EQUIPMENT IN THE MIDDLE EAST
[Photograph]
Captured German and Italian tanks and armoured vehicles, many of which are damaged, at a British Depot in the Middle East. (A) End-loading railway platform. (B) Italian M 13/40s. (C) One Pz Kw IV (damaged). (D) Pz Kw IIIs. (E) Pz Kw IIs. (F) Pz Kw Is. (G) Italian CV IIIs. (Unless otherwise stated the equipment is German).
210
[page break]
[Photograph]
A vertical view of the group of vehicles seen in the right foreground of the oblique photograph on the previous page. (A) Wheel-cum-track armoured observation vehicles. (B) Eight-wheeled armoured cars. (C) Four-wheeled armoured cars. (D) Medium armoured troop carriers. (E) Medium semi-tracked tractors. (F) Light semi-tracked tractors, some with A.A. mounting and one with hood up. (G) Italian wheeled trucks mounting a 75/27 A.A. gun.
211
[page break]
GERMAN EIGHT-WHEELED ARMOURED CAR
These oblique photographs show a damaged German eight-wheeled armoured car and a German troop carrier. The moving tank in the photograph below is a Pz Kw II.
[Photograph]
[Photograph]
[Photograph]
212
[page break]
Close-up photographs of the German eight-wheeled armoured car with its turret gun removed.
A vertical view of this type of armoured car is shown on page 211 (annotation B).
[Photograph]
Three-quarter front view.
[Photograph]
Three-quarter rear view.
The armoured car as it would probably be seen under operational conditions. The conspicuous overhead frame aerial shown here, although common, is not fitted to all eight-wheeled armoured cars.
[Photograph]
213
[page break]
DAMAGE CLEARANCE AT ROSTOCK
Damage clearance which has taken place in the old walled town of ROSTOCK reveals more than ever the extensive nature of the damage caused by the major attacks on four successive nights in April, 1942.
[Photograph]
[Photograph]
The upper photograph is of part of ROSTOCK before the attacks while that on the right shows the same area of the old town burning after the last big attack (26/27.4.42.)
The photograph on the next page, taken a year after the attacks, indicates the extent of the damage clearance. St. Marien Church (A) and the Market Square (B) can be identified in each photograph.
214
[page break]
[Photograph]
Over 70 per cent. of the buildings in the old town, which include the main shopping and business centre, public buildings, etc., have been destroyed or seriously damaged. Little attention has been paid to buildings damaged beyond the scope of simple repairs but vast areas have been cleared to make them safe by demolition of the standing walls. Few areas have been cleared in preparation for immediate new building operations.
215
[page break]
PROBLEM PICTURE
[Photograph]
WHAT IS THIS?
Answer at Foot of This Page
ANSWER TO PROBLEM PICTURE ABOVE.
[Text upside down in original] Bombing Range near RECHLIN.
216
[page break]
(4240), 51-9832, 2900, 31/5/43, 45.246.
C. & E. LAYTON LTD, London, E.C.4.
[page break]
EVIDENCE IN CAMERA
This weekly document will consist of a collection of illustrations varying in number in each issue according to the quantity of material of sufficient interest and suitable for reproduction that is received.
2. Requests for material to be included in this document should be submitted to Command Headquarters, who, after consideration, will submit them to Air Ministry, A.D.I.(Ph.). Any useful suggestions as regards contents will receive full consideration and will be welcomed.
3. Distribution is carried out by Air Ministry (A.I. I) and any requests for fewer or additional copies must be made through Group Headquarters who will ensure the maximum possible economy.
4. Under no circumstances must any of the illustrations be reproduced by Units in the British Isles. Further copies can be printed from the existing blocks and independent photographic reproduction would be a waste of material and labour to the detriment of the National War Effort.
5. The distribution of photographs to the general public is carried out through the Press who are supplied with photographs which have been specially selected for their general interest and have been published after careful consideration by the Security Branch and by the Ministry of Information; it is therefore unnecessary as well as undesirable to communicate any of the contents of this document, either directly or by discussion in public places, to persons not enjoying the privilege of serving in H.M. Forces.
6. The document has not been officially graded as Secret or Confidential in order that the widest distribution may be given, but Commanding Officers should use their discretion to ensure that the appropriate information is available only to those whose work will benefit.
7. The necessity for security cannot be over emphasised, for although this document is not marked Secret some of its contents may occasionally be of value to the enemy. Every care must be taken to prevent such information being disclosed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Evidence in Camera Vol 3 No 9
Description
An account of the resource
A magazine of aerial photographs covering bombing of Kiel shipyards, the Potez aircraft factory, flooding after the Moehne dam was breached, repairs to the Sorpe dam, bombing of Heligoland and Dune, the port of La Pallice, the port of Naples, damage at Stuttgart station, Ju 88 and Dornier flying boats, captured enemy equipment in the Middle East, a German eight-wheeled armoured car, bomb damage at Rostok and a mystery picture to identify.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-05-31
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
28 page booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MMcDermottC1119618-161216-07
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Kiel
France--Méaulte
Germany--Herdecke
Germany--Schwerte
Germany--Sorpe Dam
France--La Pallice
Italy--Naples
Germany--Stuttgart
France--Tours
Austria--Linz
Germany--Norderney
France--Cherbourg
Germany--Rostock
Germany--Rechlin
Germany--Helgoland
Italy
France
Germany--Möhne River Dam
Germany
Denmark
Austria
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Denmark--Ålborg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Air Ministry
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Angela Gaffney
aerial photograph
B-17
bombing
Do 18
Do 24
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
He 111
Ju 88
reconnaissance photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1554/27342/MMcDermottC1119618-161216-05.2.pdf
9be96021caa4c32b7b242a7a67b0a435
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
McDermott, Colin
C McDermott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McDermott, C
Description
An account of the resource
87 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Colin McDermott (1119618 Royal Air Force). He served as an air gunnery instructor and flew operations as an air gunner with 98 Squadron. Contains his log book, papers and photographs and includes issues of 'Evidence in Camera'. <br /><br />The collection also contains albums of photographs from his training at <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1696">Evanton</a> in 1943, taken during his service in <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1699">Denmark </a>and some <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1698">duplicate </a>photographs.<br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Barbara Bury and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
VOLUME 4 – NUMBER 6 – AUGUST 9TH 1943
[Inserted] [underlined] F/Lt Skinner [/underlined] [/Inserted]
EVIDENCE IN CAMERA
[Inserted] [underlined] FWH Hall. [/underlined] G/C. [/Inserted]
[picture]
[underlined] Gorring [/underlined]
ISSUED BY AIR MINISTRY A.C.A.S. (1)
FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
[page break]
EVIDENCE IN CAMERA
1. This O.U.O. document may be issued to Officers' Mess and Station Reference Libraries. (K.R. & A.C.I. 882.2236(c). 2287.)
2. The only legitimate use which may be made of official documents or information derived from them is for the furtherance of the public service in the performance of official duties.
3. The publication of official documents, information from them, reproduction of extracts or their use for personal controversy, or for any private or public purpose without due authority is a breach of official trust under the OFFICIAL SECRETS ACTS, 1911 and 1920, and will be dealt with accordingly. (K.R. & A.C.I. 1071, 1072, 2238).
4. Copies not required for record purposes should be disposed of as Secret Waste in accordance with A.M.O. A.411/41.
SEE FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS ON BACK OF COVER.
[page break]
KNOW YOUR M.T.
phipps '43
[cartoon]
Personnel-carriers (Mks. I & II) Parked at Tactical Rendezvous.
121
[page break]
AIR PHOTOGRAPHS OF ALLIED AND ENEMY TANKS
[photograph]
[inserted] Pz Kw I
Sd Kfz 222
CHURCHILL
PZ KW III [/inserted]
[photograph]
[inserted] Pz Kw III
Pz Kw I
AUTOBLINDA
Pz Kw II
Sd KFZ 222
Pz Kw III [/inserted]
These two pages of oblique photographs taken by Fighter Command at a tank demonstration show examples, from various aspects, of Allied and enemy A.F.V.'s.
[photograph]
[inserted] SHERMAN
AUTOBLINDA
Pz Kw I
CHURCHILL
Sd Kfz 222
Pz Kw III [/inserted]
122
[page break]
[photograph]
[inserted] CHURCHILL
Sd Kfz 222
Pz Kw III
Pz Kw I
SHERMAN [/inserted]
[photograph]
[inserted]
Sd Kfz 222
SHERMAN
Pz Kw III [/inserted]
TYPES OF A.F.V.'s
Allied – Churchill.
Sherman.
Italian – Autoblinda 40 (armoured car).
[photograph]
[inserted] SHERMAN
AUTOBLINDA
Sd Kfz 222
Pz Kw III
Pz Kw III
CHURCHILL [/inserted]
German – Pz Kw I
Pz Kw II
Pz Kw III
Sd KFz 222*
*Four wheeled armoured car.
123
[page break]
PREPARATIONS FOR REPAIRING THE EDER DAM
[photograph]
Reconnaissance photographs taken two months after the attack (17.5.43) on the EDER DAM show that the reservoir is now completely dry and the water carried by the river is drained through Number Two Power House (A). Preparations are apparently being made to repair the dam and in these early stages a light railway (B) has been constructed and there is a new hutted camp (C), probably for workmen.
124
[page break]
[photograph]
This enlarged area from the same photograph seen on the preceding page shows further detail in the dam. It is now estimated that the breach is 96 feet deep, 245 feet across the crown and 123 feet along the base.
125
[page break]
DAYLIGHT ATTACK ON KIEL
[photograph]
KIEL was attacked by aircraft of U.S.B.C. on 25.7.43. Part of the attacking force concentrated on the Kriegsmarine Werft (above), where U-boats are built and repaired. Many bursts can be seen and direct hits were scored on the Power Station and also on the quays near the fitting-out basin. A smoke screen was in operation during the attack.
126
[page break]
U.S.B.C. ATTACK NORWAY IN DAYLIGHT
[photograph]
During daylight on 24.7.43 aircraft of U.S.B.C. attacked targets in Norway. The photograph below shows the attack on TRONDHEIM in progress. A large concentration of bombs can be seen in the Ladehammeren Basin area where the U-boat shelters are situated, and damage was caused to workshop, gasworks and the Lade Airfield. Left: Reconnaissance photographs taken later show the workshops severely damaged and still burning. A 'Narvik' class destroyer (arrow) appears to have been damaged at her stern, and several small vessels have also been damaged, one being down by the bow.
[photograph]
127
[page break]
IMPORTANT NORWEGIAN TARGET ATTACK
[photograph]
The important Magnesium, Aluminium and Nitrate works at HERØYA were also attacked during daylight on 24.7.43. Extremely accurate bombing resulted in a heavy concentration of bursts on the target. This area had recently been developed considerably and was one of the leading industrial centres of Norway.
128
[page break]
THE A/S NORDISK LETTMETAL WORKS AT HERØYA SEVERELY DAMAGED
[photograph]
This photograph, taken the day after the attack, shows severe damage to the works. Few buildings escaped damage altogether; among those hit were the Power Station (A), Gas Producer Plant (B), Washing and Carbonisation Building (C), Main Store of Finished Fertilisers (D), Forge (E), Chimney and Fan House (F) and Phosphate Crushing (G).
129
[page break]
HANOVER ATTACKED IN DAYLIGHT
[photograph]
During daylight on 26.7.43 ninety bomber aircraft of the U.S.B.C. penetrated as far as HANOVER to bomb important industrial targets, which include the largest rubber factory in Germany. The photograph above shows a great column of smoke caused by a violent explosion, in the vicinity of the CONTINENTAL GUMMIWERKE A.G. Vahrenwalderstrasse, where tyres, tubes and other rubber equipment are produced. See also next page.
130
[page break]
HANOVER RUBBER TYRE FACTORY DAMAGED
[photograph]
Right: An early stage during the attack showing the accurate concentration of bomb bursts on the Continental Gummiwerke (rubber factory) and the main goods yard.
Below: Severe damage has been caused to multi-storeyed buildings, boiler house and other smaller buildings of the rubber factory. The main building of the Guter Bahnof Nord goods yard has received several direct hits which have destroyed over 5,400 sq.yds. of the roof.
[photograph]
131
[page break]
REPEATED ATTACKS ON HAMBURG
[photograph]
Left: When bombers of U.S.B.C. attacked HAMBURG in daylight on 25.7.43 they found the city covered by a pall of smoke from hundreds of fires caused by the great R.A.F. raid on the previous night. The attacking Fortress aircraft can be seen flying in formation over the target with three enemy aircraft attempting to intercept (bottom right). Several bursts of flak can also be observed.
Below: Hamburg was again attacked in daylight the following day. Smoke from fires was still drifting over the city and port. Heavy damage to the city area is apparent through the haze, while an incomplete liner has capsized over on to the quay at Blohm & Voss. A concentration of bombs can be seen bursting on the Howaldts Shipyard and a second wave of bomb bursts is developing on and around the Neuhof Power House.
132 and 133
[page break]
[photograph]
This photograph shows the important SCHLESISCHE Station (D) with its surrounding yards and buildings, which is in E. Berlin; it is an important centre for forwarding supplies to the Eastern Front. The disused Ostbahn Station (A) has had the tracks removed and stores sheds have been erected (B), while foundations for further sheds are visible at (C). The Goods Yards are at (E and E1), with the Postal Dispatch Depot at (F), the Underground railway station building (G) is of a standardised design, while the Wriezener Station (H) is used for suburban traffic.
134
[page break]
[photograph]
INNSBRUCK. This important railway centre in Upper Austria is situated where the main route from Germany to Italy (via the Brenner Pass) crosses that following the Inn Valley to Switzerland. (A) Passenger Station, (B) Goods Station, (C) Locomotive Depot. The trucks seen at (D) are carrying M.T., while on the far side (E) flat trucks are carrying tanks and guns are being loaded at (F).
135
[page break]
AIRCRAFT OF THE ITALIAN AIR FORCE
[photograph]
Left: The Savoia-Marchetti S.M.84 is a modified version of the standard torpedo-bombers of the I.A.F. S.M.84s (A) with C.R.42s (B) and a French LeO 45 (C). The Fiat C.R. 42 is a biplane fighter, but many are still in service.
Below: The Re2001 (A), one of the best Italian fighters, has a German Daimler-Benz engine, while (B) is a B.R.20.
[photograph]
Right: S.M.84s (A) with Fiat B.R.20s. The B.R.20 (B) is an obsolescent twin-engined bomber.
[photograph]
136
[page break]
Right: The S.M.79 torpedo-bomber (A and B) has been one of the standard I.A.F. types throughout the war. Two Caproni Ca.313s (reconnaissance bombers) are also seen here (C and D). The obsolete high-wing monoplane (E) is a Ca.III, originally a bomber and now used for general purposes.
[photograph]
[photograph]
Below: S.M.84 torpedo-bombers.
[photograph]
Above: The S.M.82 is the most widely used Italian transport. S.M.82s are seen here at the Savoia-Marchetti factory at Vergiate/Somma Lombarda.
137
[page break]
[boxed] DUMMY FACTORY AT WILHELMSHAVEN [/boxed]
These photographs were taken during the daylight attack on WILHELMSHAVEN, 11.6.43, and show a dummy factory that has been built on reclaimed ground in an isolated part of the port. Note the chimneys (arrows) on two of the dummy buildings.
[photograph]
Above: At the beginning of the attack the smoke screen round the port has started though the decoy factory is not yet active.
Right: A little later the screen has increased and smoke can now be seen issuing from two dummy chimneys (arrows).
[photograph]
138
[page break]
[photograph]
While the attack on the port of WILHELMSHAVEN developed the decoy became fully active. Note that the smoke is darker than that of the screen generators, and less in volume. It is not designed to augment the screen.
139
[page break]
KNOW YOUR PORTS
[photograph]
[inserted]OUTER HARBOUR
OIL QUAY
NEW PORT
DESTROYER BASIN
PIZZOLI MOLE
S. ANTONIO MOLE
OLD PORT [/inserted]
BARI, a port on the Adriatic Sea in S.E. Italy, which in recent weeks has become one of the most important in the country. It deals mainly with merchant shipping, but naval escort vessels also berth in the port.
140
[page break]
A.N.I.C. REFINERY AND HYDROGENATION PLANT AT BARI, ITALY
[photograph]
This oil refinery at BARI was designed to deal with crude oil from Albania. It remained inactive for a long period, but has come into use since the heavy damage to the Leghorn Refinery. Distillation Columns (A), Cracking Plant (B), Boiler House (C), Hydrogenation Stalls (D), Tanks with floating roofs (E), Transformer Station (F).
141
[page break]
[photograph]
[photograph]
NAURU, one of the most important islands in the Gilbert Group, was a British mandate, but is now in Japanese hands. Its population is about 3,000 and phosphate digging is the main industry. The airfield was attacked by bombers of the American Air Force on 20.4.43; bomb bursts can be seen at the N.W. end of the runway. In the same raid considerable damage was done to the oil stores and phosphate plant.
142
[page break]
[boxed] FIGHTER COMMAND COMBAT FILM [/boxed]
[photograph]
[photograph]
[photograph]
During this attack hits from cannon shell and m.g. fire were scored on this Fw 56.
[photograph]
A Ju 52, with a mine detonating ring, flying over the sea.
143
[page break]
PROBLEM PICTURE
[photograph]
[photograph]
WHAT IS THIS?
Answer at Foot of This Page.
CORRECTION: Vol.4. No. 5 Page 115.
CHATEAULIN VIADUCT. The caption should read 49 meters high.
[boxed] ANSWER TO PROBLEM PICTURE ABOVE.
Esparto grass grown to prevent the sand from drifting. These photographs are of the same area west of HAAMSTEDE, on Schouwen Island, off the Dutch coast [/boxed]
144
[page break]
(4482) 51-9832, 2900, 9/8/43. 45.246.
C. & E. LAYTON LTD. London, E.C.4.
[page break]
EVIDENCE IN CAMERA
This weekly document will consist of a collection of illustrations varying in number in each issue according to the quantity of material of sufficient interest and suitable for reproduction that is received.
2. Requests for material to be included in this document should be submitted to Command Headquarters, who, after consideration, will submit them to Air Ministry, A.D.I. (Ph.). Any useful suggestions as regards contents will receive full consideration and will be welcomed.
3. Distribution is carried out by the Air Ministry (A.I. I) and any requests for fewer or additional copies must be made through Group Headquarters who will ensure the maximum possible economy.
4. Under no circumstances must any of the illustrations be reproduced by Units in the British Isles. Further copies can be printed from the existing blocks and independent photographic reproduction would be a waste of material and labour to the detriment of the National War Effort.
5. The distribution of photographs to the general public is carried out through the Press who are supplied with photographs which have been specially selected for their general interest and have been published after careful consideration by the Security Branch and by the Ministry of Information; it is therefore unnecessary as well as undesirable to communicate any of the contents of this document, either directly or by discussion in public places, to persons not enjoying the privilege of serving in H.M. Forces.
6. The document has not been officially graded as Secret or Confidential in order that the widest distribution may be given, but Commanding Officers should use their discretion to ensure that the appropriate information is available only to those whose work will benefit.
7. The necessity for security cannot be over emphasised, for although this document is not marked Secret some of its contents may occasionally be of value to the enemy. Every care must be taken to prevent such information being disclosed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Evidence in Camera Vol 4 No 5
Description
An account of the resource
A magazine of aerial photographs covering aerial views of tanks, the Eder dam after the attack by 617 squadron, Kiel, Trondheim and Heroya harbours under attack, industrial areas in Hanover, railway centres, Italian airfields and aircraft, a dummy factory at Wilhelmshaven, Bari port and oil refinery, the island of Nauru, air to air combat images and an image to be guessed, featuring sand dune stabilisation.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-08-09
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One 28 page booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MMcDermottC1119618-161216-05
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Eder Dam
Germany--Kiel
Norway--Trondheim
Norway--Porsgrunn
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Berlin
Austria--Innsbruck
Italy--Somma Lombardo
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Italy--Bari
Nauru
Netherlands--Schouwen-Duiveland
Germany--Hannover
Italy
Germany
Austria
Netherlands
Norway
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Air Ministry
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Babs Nichols
aerial photograph
B-17
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Ju 52
reconnaissance photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1252/16834/PCheshireGL18100041.1.jpg
ee5e8f9256b1684ecf57793349487362
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1252/16834/PCheshireGL18100042.1.jpg
0ee8fbc3a94c5afd9d3b4dc2ca0c5ec3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cheshire, Leonard
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard
Baron Cheshire
Description
An account of the resource
374 items concerning Group Captain Leonard Cheshire VC, OM, DSO & Two Bars, DFC. Collection consists of photographs of people, vehicles, places, aircraft, weapons and targets; documents including, private and service letters, signals, telegrams, intelligence reports, crew lists and official documents. Cheshire served on 102 and 35 Squadrons and commanded 76 and 617 Squadrons. The collection includes details of 617 Squadron's precision bombing operations. Also included are two sub-collections: one containing 21 photographs of Tinian and Saipan, the other consisting of 37 audio tapes of speeches given by Cheshire after the war.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by The Leonard Cheshire Archive and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is property of the Leonard Cheshire Archive which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it. Please note that it was digitised by a third-party which used technical specifications that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Exhibition of Dambuster Pilots Wings
Description
An account of the resource
Top centre a title 'this photograph was taken the day after the attack on the dams of [..] pilots who took off for the dams only eleven returned'. Top centre a photograph of twelve pilots in two rows labelled 'Back row: Flt Lt Townsend, Flt Lt McCarthy, Flt Lt Wilson, Wg Cdr Gibson, Flt Lt Munro, Flt Lt Maltby, Flt Sgt Brown, Front Row: Flt Sgt Anderson, P/O Rice, Flt Lt Martin, Flt Lt Shannon, P/O Knight'. Left hand side in three rows the pilot's brevet, medal ribbons and plaque with name and aircraft for Sir Harold Martin, Flt Lt Geoff Rice and Squadron Leader Les Munro RNAF, left centre medals and name plaque for Squadron Leader David Maltby and name plaque for Flt Lt H S Wilson (lost on Sept 14 1942 during attack on Dortmund-Ems Canal). Centre Pilots Brevet, medal ribbons and name plaque for Wing Commander Guy Gibson, lost night 19 September 1944. Below centre Brevet, medal ribbons and name plaque for Flt Lt Bill Townsend. Centre right medal ribbon and name plaque fro pilot Officer Les Knight RAAF and below name plaque for Flt Sgt Anderson, lost on operations later ion WWII. Right hand side pilot's brevet , medal ribbons and name plaque for Sqn Ldr Joseph McCarthy, Flt Lt Ken Brown and Squadron leader David Shannon. On the reverse 'Dambuster Pilots Wings'.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCheshireGL18100041, PCheshireGL18100042
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Cheshire, Leonard. Aircrew, people, decorations and bomb damage
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is property of the Leonard Cheshire Archive which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it. Please note that it was digitised by a third-party which used technical specifications that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
617 Squadron
bombing
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
killed in action
Lancaster
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1998/38072/MOates1489926-171207-17.1.jpg
cb46a4a423958f2ec6bb6b7168219855
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oates, James
J Oates
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Oates, J
Description
An account of the resource
91 items. The collection concerns Warrant Officer James Oates (1489926 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents and photographs. He flew paratrooper drops and glider towing operations as a navigator with 196 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Gina E Welsh and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Guy Gibson's Log Book Extract
Description
An account of the resource
An extract from Guy's logbook for May 1943. It ends on May 16 with 'Awarded VC'.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Möhne River Dam
Germany--Eder Dam
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One photocopied sheet
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MOates1489926-171207-17
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
617 Squadron
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
Oxford
RAF Hendon
RAF Manston
Victoria Cross
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1963/41315/BLazenbyHJLazenbyHJv1.2.pdf
35022f62bb4527b9a7da34bd424ec42f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lazenby, Harold Jack
H J Lazenby
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lazenby, HJ
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. The collection concerns Warrant Officer Harold Jack Lazenby DFC (b. 1917, 652033 Royal Air Force) and contains his memoir, documents and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 57, 97 and 7 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Daniel, H Jack Lazenby and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
H Jack Lazenby DFC
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Jack Lazenby's autobiography.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Warrington
England--Wolverhampton
England--Shifnal (Shropshire)
England--London
England--Bampton (Oxfordshire)
England--Witney
England--Oxford
England--Cambridge
France--Paris
England--Portsmouth
England--Oxfordshire
England--Southrop (Oxfordshire)
England--Cirencester
England--Skegness
England--Worcestershire
England--Birmingham
England--Kidderminster
England--Gosport
England--Fareham
England--Southsea
Wales--Margam
Wales--Port Talbot
Wales--Bridgend
Wales--Porthcawl
England--Urmston
England--Stockport
Wales--Cardiff
Wales--Barry
United States
New York (State)--Long Island
Illinois--Chicago
England--Gloucester
Scotland--Kilmarnock
England--Surrey
England--Liverpool
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lincoln
Denmark--Anholt
Poland--Gdańsk
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Kiel
Europe--Mont Blanc
Denmark
England--Hull
Czech Republic--Plzeň
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Mablethorpe
Germany--Cologne
Italy--Turin
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
England--Land's End Peninsula
Italy--San Polo d'Enza
Italy--Genoa
Italy--Milan
Algeria
Algeria--Blida
Algeria--Atlas de Blida Mountains
England--Cambridge
England--Surrey
England--Ramsey (Cambridgeshire)
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Munich
France--Montluçon
Germany--Darmstadt
Scotland--Elgin
England--York
Scotland--Aberdeen
England--Grimsby
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Zeitz
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Heide (Schleswig-Holstein)
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Netherlands--Westerschelde
Germany--Rheine
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Bremen
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Belgium
England--Southend-on-Sea
England--Morecambe
England--Kineton
England--Worcester
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
England--London
Italy--La Spezia
France--Dunkerque
Poland--Szczecin
Poland
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Recklinghausen (Münster)
Netherlands
England--Sheringham
England--Redbridge
France--Saint-Nazaire
Atlantic Ocean--Kattegat (Baltic Sea)
Germany
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
United States Army Air Force
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
99 printed sheets
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BLazenbyHJLazenbyHJv1
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lazenby, Harold Jack
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
1654 HCU
20 OTU
207 Squadron
4 Group
5 Group
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
7 Squadron
97 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-17
B-24
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
briefing
Catalina
Chamberlain, Neville (1869-1940)
crewing up
debriefing
demobilisation
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
Distinguished Service Order
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
entertainment
flight engineer
flight mechanic
Flying Training School
George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Hampden
hangar
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hudson
Hurricane
Ju 88
killed in action
Lancaster
love and romance
Manchester
Master Bomber
Me 110
Me 262
mechanics engine
mess
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Nissen hut
Oboe
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
radar
RAF Barkstone Heath
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Benson
RAF Bourn
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Colerne
RAF Cosford
RAF Cranwell
RAF Dunkeswell
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Elvington
RAF Fairford
RAF Halton
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melton Mowbray
RAF Mepal
RAF Oakington
RAF Padgate
RAF Pershore
RAF Scampton
RAF Silverstone
RAF St Athan
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Swinderby
RAF Talbenny
RAF Tangmere
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Upwood
RAF Uxbridge
RAF Valley
RAF Warboys
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wing
recruitment
Resistance
Spitfire
sport
Stirling
target indicator
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Victoria Cross
Wellington
Whitley
Window
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/769/9413/MDexterKI127249-170830-10.2.jpg
1af5fd6722cb401cb5e2f816325003e6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dexter, Keith Inger
Dexter, Dec
K I Dexter
Description
An account of the resource
33 items. The collection concerns Flying Officer Keith Dexter (1911 - 1943, 127249, 1387607 Royal Air Force ), a policeman before the war, he flew as a pilot with 103 Squadron at RAF Elsham Wolds. He was shot down and killed with all his crew on 16/17 June 1943 on operations against Cologne. Collection contains a dozen letters from 'Dec' Dexter to Phyllis Dexter,There is an extract from the 103 Squadron Operational Record Book on the loss of his aircraft and crew, maps of where his aircraft crashed, official Royal Air Force personnel records, Netherlands official documents, document about his aircraft as well as a photograph of a Lancaster over Lincoln and a crew. There are photographs of his grave as well as a group of people, including Keith Dexter being interviewed as a pilot trainee by the BBC at RAF Hatfield. There are two detailed daily diaries covering his time in the Royal Air Force from from 3 April 1941 to June 1943 which relate activities while training and on operations. There are some memorabilia, a photograph of a Lancaster over Lincoln, a painting, and an <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/770">album</a>. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Lieutenant Colonel Monty Dexter-Banks and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.<br /><br />Additional information on Keith Inger Dexter is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/106139/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dexter, KI
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
The Hall,
Waterbeach,
Cambs.
Telephone: Cambridge 860216
[Underlined] LANCASTER B.III ED 945 [/underlined]
This aircraft was one of a batch of 620 ordered from A.V. Roe, Chadderton, Nr. Manchester in 1941 and built from November 1942 to June 1943. 129 with Nos. ED 303 to ED 782 were built as Mk Is fitted with R.R. Merlin 20 engines, and the remaining 491 were Mk IIIs fitted with Rolls Royce (Packard built) Merlin 28 engines, thus ED 783 to ED 999 and EE 105 to EE 202 were B.IIIs. Twenty of this particular batch with numbers either side of ED 932 (Gibson’s aircraft) were specially modified known as “Type 464 provisioning” to enable the special store, Barnes Wallis’ bomb, to be carried and released on the Dams raid. Completed in the late Spring of 1943, on the 9th June ED 945 was delivered to 103 Squadron stationed at Elsham Wolds, Barnetby, North Lincolnshire. 103 was in 1 Group Bomber Command, with Group Headquarters at Bawtry and th[deleted] e [/deleted] eir airfields grouped along the South bank of the Humber estuary.
When this aircraft was lost on the raid to Cologne on the night of 16/17 June 1943 it had logged 48 flying hours. This raid on Cologne comprised one of the actions during the Battle of the Ruhr 5/6 March 1943 to 28/29 June 1943. 26 major attacks were carried out during this period, the force generally comprising of 500 to 700 heavies. The target was marked by Oboe Mosquitoes of PFF dropping target indicators blind which were backed-up by ground markers dropped visually by PFF Lancasters. The aiming point was marked continuously throughout the attack during which time it was bombed by the Main Force: 1,3,4, 5 and 6 Groups.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
History of Lancaster B.III ED 945
Description
An account of the resource
Ordered 1941 and built by A.V. Roe at Chadderton near Manchester as one of a batch of 620 between November 1943 and June 1943. Twenty of this batch either side of ED 932 (Gibson's aircraft) were modified as type 464 provisioning to enable Barnes Wallis's bomb to be carried. ED 945 completed 9 June 1943 and delivered to 103 Squadron. Aircraft lost on night 16/17 June 1943 on an operation to Cologne. Covers some aspects of this operation.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MDexterKI127249-170830-10
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Manchester
England--Lincolnshire
England--Bawtry
Germany
Germany--Cologne
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-11
1943-06
1943-06-09
1943-06-16
1943-06-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One-page typewritten document
1 Group
103 Squadron
617 Squadron
bombing
bouncing bomb
crash
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 3
Mosquito
Oboe
Pathfinders
target indicator
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/548/8809/PLeedhamA1601.1.jpg
a1fcd561dc38bb5f13c7c11bb63b26d3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/548/8809/ALeedhamA160514.2.mp3
fcfd2bdafa3b86d6a03bfa38ab6d6a42
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leedham, Alma
Alma Lucy Muriel Leedham
A L M Leedham
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Leedham, A
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Alma Lucy Muriel Leedham (1922 - 2020, 455833 Royal Air Force), memoirs of herself and her husband Warrant Officer Terence Leedham an armourer who also served on a number of bomber command stations. She served as a driver in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force stationed at RAF Scampton and East Kirkby.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alma Leedham and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-14
2017-05-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: Ok, it’s Saturday the fourteenth of May 2016 and I am Heather Hughes and I am conducting an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre with Alma Leedham and also present at the interview are Alma’s son, Richard and daughter in law, Jane. Thank you, Alma, very much for agreeing to talk to us today. We are in Richard and Jane’s home in Holbury, Southampton. Alma, I wonder if we could start off this interview with you talking a little bit about your very early life and where you were born and grew up and went to school.
AL: I [unclear], well, I was born in Fulham, which is just outside London, actually South Wessex, and of course I stayed there, I was more or less still there when the war started and when I joined up all I wanted to do was drive. I loved driving and I still do. But I was sent up to Blackpool and we had civilian teachers which turned out to be a bit of a mistake because three or four of them got picked up on a smash-and-grab raid one night [laughs], well, we didn’t know anything about it, us girls that were lonely we were being put up in local houses up there and that was the first time I saw a ballet, there was a ballet on at the theatre up there and a couple of lads took me to see it, so that was the first time, but I’m digressing now, but
HH: Not at all.
AL: You know, being there and thinking about it now, it’s way back in my past really see, so if I jump about you’ll have to excuse me.
HH: Not a problem.
AL: So, the thing is, I did have a boyfriend who was in the RAF and when he disappeared I joined up so I’m trying to remember how old I was then, I was think of I was probably eighteen, possibly nineteen but I think it was more like eighteen, and they send me up to Blackpool and that’s where the drivers were, learning to drive. I had a father who was mad about motor and always had been, he’s always been in the business so he told me how to double declutch, which some people these days have never heard of, but in those days we did, anyway, now where have I got to? This is it, my memory’s sort of, it collapses from time to time and I go from one bit to another. The thing is when the war was starting I was already working for Hawker aircraft on the Hurricane. So, I was already slightly involved with the war but when, I’m just thinking, when I decided to join up, they sent me up to Blackpool to learn to drive properly and that was absolutely beautiful because it was the springtime and we were doing most of our training in the upper areas of North Wales and it was really wonderful up there, Rhododendrons all the way, you know, because it was sort of, really, this time of the year, May, and then of course we had a bit of collapse because the trainers, the drivers that we had, who were civilians, several of them got picked up on a smash-and-grab raid, so the whole thing started to collapse and then, there’s a famous comedian who was a sergeant and he used to take us in the basement.
US: Max Wall.
AL: Max Wall, that was him and he was our sergeant at the time and he wasn’t always funny, I’ll tell you that, but you see, the thing is there were breaks and us girls when we had a break, we used to pop into Woolworth and buy music and sit at the back we’d all [unclear], you know, going like this [unclear], not listening to him at all, but, anyway, that’s beside the point and so eventually of course we all got posted off to different places because there was a break when they decided that because of the disruptive learner, teacher drivers that we had, we would have to start again so we all gone, there were more than fifty of us and we went south somewhere and I can’t quite remember but it was sort of somewhere, sort of [unclear] with northern Wales that we went and they put us through psychology test, so we were sort of listening for noises and we had pieces of paper in front of us with a pencil on one hand and a pen in the other one and so, you had to do all the movements that you were doing if you were driving, so for instance if you were, if the instructor at the front sitting on the [unclear] left hand turn, because he was facing you, it was a right-hand turn for you, so [laughs], so we had pieces, it must have taken about three or four days when we were going through this business of the paperwork and to test what you, how good your sight was and how good your hearing was cause you had to listen for a horn and well, things like that and if he suddenly put his hand out, you put a right hand turn because he was doing a left hand turn, but it was alright for us. It was quite interesting but we were only there four days and then we got sent off again and so I went to, where did I go to? I went to Blackpool. We were, yeah, that was, I think I got a bit mixed up somewhere there but anyway when we finished our training I was sent with three, four other ladies, we were all new to the RAF and we went up to somewhere on the east coast of Scotland where we were collecting new lorries, there were new lorries who were just going into use so when we got up there, the first thing we had to do was to clean the lorries cause you couldn’t see through the windows or anything so we had to clean them up and when all these lorries were ready, they were about, I think they were about six, seven or maybe even eight and we had the business of keeping the right distance outside town from each other and the right distance, when you, you could close up when you, and I can’t remember what the distances were, so you could close up when you were in town but all this time we were normally driving just lorries, small lorries, what you call a thirty-hundred-weight, and then of course the news eventually came through that the postings were coming, when everything went wrong, they were going to send us down to London but before we could go, they stopped us and said, we are sending you to somewhere else and I can’t remember where that is now, but when we finished our training there and they decided we were ok, that’s when I got sent to Scampton but there were only two of us went to Scampton and I can’t even remember the other girls name and of course it was when I got there 83 Squadron were in the process of moving south cause they’d been at Scampton and they were with 39 Squadron. 39 Squadron were flying Manchesters which only had the two engines, they weren’t as good as the Lancasters, so they went out of action fairly soon and I never really had anything to do with those but when we were posted to Scampton there were the empty, that’s the motor place where the, all the girls and the men who were drivers went down there and you would only do half a day because you’d be, you’d have two, at least two other drivers, learners, same as yourself, and we’d have one teacher each, they were civilians and we had one teacher each and you, he decided when you got out and come, somebody got out the backseat and came in and did the driving, so he decided all that sort of stuff and because at that time we were living in what you would call holiday houses, you know, the people went to stay on a holiday at Blackpool and there’s all these land ladies with all their open doors and of course the RAF and the army, they just overtook all the places over and I remember the first time we went, we were right up in the loft area so when I woke up in the morning, I’m trying to stand, trying to sit up, and I hit my head on the [unclear] ceiling but I mean there were seven of us in that attic and so we did get a big post. And then there was the night when we got, I can’t remember her name, one of the other girls, at night we had to be in by ten, but there was a fish and chip shop down the road and we could get lemonade there as well, so we used to get the stuff and take it back but the lady who was in charge of the house, it was her house, she had very, very strict rules about being back by ten and we were only about one minute past ten and she wouldn’t let us in, so the girls who were in the top floor so [unclear] stream down we passed fish and chips and bottles of lemonade up to them but we couldn’t get in ourselves and there was a corporal who was supposed to be in charge of us and she was very weak, she, when they, the owner of the house sort of told her, you can do this and you can do that and can do the other but not this, you know, and so she laid the law down and of course we got to this point where we couldn’t get in one night cause we arrived back one minute after eleven so we had to go three streets away to one of the houses where we had a WAAF office there with officers and sergeants and all that sort of thing, tell them what had happened to us and so they said, well, we will get that sorted out so, they sent for a lorry, it was an RAF lorry to come and pick us up and take us back [unclear] that they let us in [laughs] and that’s what they did, they did [unclear] but as I say, that was just the early days and then once we got posted, we all went different ways so, some of the girls that I knew then I never ever met again. So, you just sort of accepted what came, there was nothing else you could do anyway but I think when you are young, that doesn’t matter, does it? And you know, we more or less behaved ourselves and as I say, that was the first time I saw a ballet, there was a ballet in Blackpool on at the theatre and two of the lads decided to take me and I don’t remember much about it, it was Swan Lake, that’s all I know but from then on you know, you saw, you just waited to see what was gonna happen and when I got sent to Scampton the first thing I had to do was not driving a car anymore, you’re driving a tractor, so that’s when I started taking the bombs out to the Lancasters, so.
HH: And you used a tractor for that?
AL: Yeah. So, I’d have, the maximum number of trailers on the back was six, you weren’t allowed to have more, with six could do you two bombloads, see so when you went up to the bomb dump my mate she worked in, Vivian, she worked in the bomb dump, she knew where we were going, we weren’t told, we were just told which aircraft to take the loads to and you could pick up two loads on six trolleys, so you had a four thousand pound bomb on the trailer behind you and the other two trailers would have incendiary bombs on them, crossways on the trolleys. And so you took out six and you delivered them to the two aircraft that they told you to do and then you went back again, collected another lot and that sort of thing. But I suppose really if you jumped far ahead there was a night when we, you know, we had a fog, and we blew up one of our Lancasters, it was fully bombed from the night before [laughs].
HH: What happened?
AL: Well nobody was hurt or anything, in fact it was rather funny because when this aircraft, you see the aircraft had been lined up on the sort of semicircle ready to take off the night before and of course the rule was that if the Germans got [unclear] that we were coming, it would be cancelled. At this particular night it was cancelled and when we went out the next morning, fog everywhere, you couldn’t see a hand in front of your face. And so there were people doing [unclear] and what we didn’t know at the time, we found out about later was that one of the lads and armourer, he got into the aircraft because when the aircraft was taking off and it was fully loaded, it also had a flash, now the flash came from a chute near the back end of the aircraft and when, I don’t know about the timing and all that sort of thing but that flash, when it went, gave them the light to take a photograph of what they had hit, so it was all very complicated really, but anyway that’s who I was. Oh dear, I’m running out of breath I think. It’s, you know I’m trying to go back to those days cause it’s a long time ago.
HH: It is a long time ago.
AL: And now I’m trying to remember.
HH: So, how, were you just at Scampton or did you serve at any other base? You were just at Scampton?
AL: I was just at Scampton because
HH: So you got to know it very well.
AL: I did. That was, we used to have a dance, it was generally on a Sunday night, this was the non-officers, they had their own particular areas, the same as they had their own officer’s mess, we wouldn’t expect to go up to any of those places, and so we sort of all bumped in together and it seemed to work out quite well. It was.
HH: What were your living quarters like in Scampton?
AL: Oh wait a minute, what was that like? I’m just trying to think where I slept in, oh, yes, it was nearly two miles down the road off Scampton, coming out of Lincoln it would be on the right, I’ve forgotten the name of the village but a lot of us slept down there in sort of Nissen huts and that was a bit awkward because if you wanted to go to the loo you’ll had to, put your shoes on of course, you had to get out of the Nissen hut that you were in, you had to walk across a ditch which had a white plank on it, so you walked across the ditch [unclear] on and though that was sort of loosely put up, you know, for the first to use and that sort of thing, so no problems there expect the girl in the bed next to me had [unclear], I mean, she was a fat girl and she came from Bradford, and I remember she used to call it Bratford, I said it’s not Bratford it’s Bradford, there’s a d in there, anyway she had a [unclear] and they cartered her off but I never knew what happened there but you see, she was a tubby girl and most of us and so most of us didn’t even realise she was expecting, things like that do happen, you know.
HH: And what was the food like?
AL: Mh?
HH: What was the food like?
AL: As far as I remember, it was acceptable. We had a sort of, there was a general, in the main building there was a cooking, really, not cooking, ah, what’s the word?
HH: Canteen.
AL: Yes, they turned it into a canteen up there, so that we could use it and of course in the evening it was used as a theatre, so we had a big screen put up in one corner and my friend Vivian, the one who did the bomb dump, I remember one night, she was sitting there, she was sat on the window sill and there was this cowboy thing on, there was this white horse and somebody was shouting something about the horse and Vivian stood there and she said, come on [unclear]! [unclear] this white horse. And so everybody started laughing so, they said, do you want us to start again? We said, no, carry on from where you are [laughs].
HH: And how much, how much did you have to do with the ground crew and the air crew?
AL: The only relationship, oh, we can’t call it a relationship, but the only people I really knew were, I didn’t know any of the air crew but we all thought that was a good idea because they didn’t always come back but the ground crew, we got to know those that especially the armourers that worked on the stuff because we used to take the bombs out on the trolleys and but you should hear their language if you hadn’t got the trolleys straight when you had to load them out, right under the bomb bay, see, so you took the tractor right the way round and you came in from the side towards the front end cause you couldn’t get out the back way anyway. And so that was my [unclear].
HH: And you said that you’d met your husband as a result of being in Bomber Command.
AL: Oh yes, now, I did know him because he was a flight sergeant and he had sixty men working for him and he was in the armoury department, you see, because I was on the bombs and that sort of thing so I didn’t get to know him and it was so sad one morning, we were, the girls were in the hangar, some waiting to go out on different jobs and he came in and there were tears, I said, what’s the matter? Cause I didn’t even know that he was, that his name was Terry then, I called him the same as everybody else cause he, he was this big lad, he was six foot two, and I sad, what on earth’s the matter? He said, I have just been round to one of the planes that was out last night, he said, the rear gunner was shot up, he said, and I went round the back and there’s just bits of him. He said, I couldn’t bear to look at it and there were tears and he was a flight sergeant but there you are [unclear] sort of thing but over the years, you know, we sort of got to know each other, especially if I was on night duty and he was on night duty too. So, out on the airfield there were three huts, hut number one, two and three, and you could always go to one of these huts because they had these stoves and the stoves there were on the top and I used to go down the cook house and get some bread and we made toast up there, you see, so we were never short of something [unclear] and they used to say when I got, when I used to get down the cook house, you didn’t come for more bread? I said, yes [laughs]. And I don’t remember whether we ever managed to get any marge to go with it, certainly wasn’t any butter. [unclear] got some marge sometimes. But, you know, it’s, I’ve gone off my track again, haven’t I?
HH: You were talking about getting to know your husband.
AL: Oh yes, he, well, mainly I suppose it was because he was working on the, he was, you see, there were four hangars but it was hangar number three and hangar number four were where the armourers worked, he was a flight sergeant at the time and so the only time he ever had to bring his lads in, he would sit in the front with me, in the front, that’s the lorry I was driving and [laughs], one night he came back with the lorry and while I had been out on the airfield, they’d taken one of the Lancasters and they towed it by the tail, put it in the hangar and the doors, the hangar gates or doors, which were, they were normally open when I left, when I came back they were like this and I got, I got probably about twelve armourers in the back of the lorry with all their gear, you know, the winding and bits, so I got them and when I had got round to the hangar and the hangar which had been wide open there was a [unclear] one so I didn’t realise that what they’d done was to tow a Lancaster in there by the tail, so when I drove in [unclear] my lads that were in the back of the lorry got the propeller piece that was in the downward bit, it went over the roof and where I was driving but the covered bit where the lads were [laughs], it went back and it bent all the way [unclear] shouting at me [unclear] [laughs]. But things like that happened.
HH: I’m sure. Well, things were not as well-lit in those days apart from everything else, weren’t they?
AL: Most of the time you couldn’t see where you were going.
HH: Exactly.
US: You were going to tell the story of flash?
AL: Flash? Oh yeah.
US: Who [unclear]
AL: When we the, when we blew him up?
US: Yeah. When you blew the Lancaster up.
AL: Oh, well, this, on this particular night there was going to be a raid on Germany and the aircraft, we got them all loaded up and everything and whether the news, cause sometimes the news of what we were doing would get through to the Germans and if they found out, I mean, we never knew any details or anything but if that happened, the whole thing was off and everything like that, so on this one particular night, everything was ready but there was a very thick fog the next morning and when we got to work, there was, it was a bit difficult, we had to go out onto the aircraft, we had armourers and I mean, I didn’t even know about it at the time but in the aircraff where the bombs are, they are in sort of the middle of the aircraft but behind that towards the tail, inside there’s a chute and the chute had, I suppose you could call it a bomb, it’s like a small one
US: It’s a flash [unclear]
AL: But it was the flash really and it went, it went into a chute so that what happened, when the aircraft were in the air and they got the place that they were gonna bomb land, this flash, I mean I don’t know any of the details, but the flash was what gave them the light to take a photograph of what they’d hit.
HH: That’s it.
AL: So, as I say, I don’t know any of the details there.
HH: What happened to it in the fog?
AL: Eh?
HH: What happened to it in the fog?
AL: Well, this was the problem, the whole thing was cancelled the night before, when we got to work the next morning, Cookie, who was the warrant officer in charge of the armourers and the, what we called the downstairs people [laughs], in charge of me as well, he had got very drunk the night before, which wasn’t unusual [laughs] and he sent, which he should never have done, he sent some blokes out to defuse the flashes, see, so, there was a case, they, so they had to get into the aircraft and the flash was, long thing about that, and it was about that wide and it went, and that was what took a photograph of what they hit and what he did, Cookie sent one of the blokes out to defuse one of these things or more than one but he ignored the fact that no one below the rank of corporal was allowed to do that and this bloke, he was just a leading aircraftsman, he was no rank at all and he put the switch the wrong way and he fired it so we had, he shouted as soon as he’d done it, now we had at that time because it was the next morning there was fog everywhere and there were the lads who had all the instruments and stuff and they were, had trolleys and when I was driving the lorry, I was seeing somebody running across the ground towards the hangar, two blokes and they hadn’t got the sense to leave the trolley and go [laughs], they were still pushing the trolley along [laughs], running across the grass towards the hangar with this trolley, I thought that was really funny [laughs]. But I’ve lost myself again.
US: The flash went off at the Lancaster, set it on fire.
AL: Oh yes, this was when
HH: Set the aircraft on fire.
AL: The switch, this switch that was supposed to switch the flash off, he turned it the wrong way apparently. But he knew what he’d done as soon as it happened because the flash dropped out of the bottom of the aircraft, it was at the tail end, and you shouted, jump everybody, the flash is gone! You see, we had the instrument people working up in the, where the pilot and the navigator, where those people would be, and the mid upper gunner, he would be up there and there was another one, there was the front gunner, he would be up there and these men were up there, you see, and the aircraft was on fire down the bottom with this thing, see, so, they jumped out where they were and people got away from the aircraft and of course in no time at all, not only was this Lancaster on fire but because overall wing to wing, the Lancs on either side were on fire.
HH: And were they are still fully bombed up?
AL: Oh yeah. And but you see, the thing was, because we couldn’t see properly because the fog was so thick and the airfield at Scampton is like this so that if you are on the far side, you can’t even see the hangars. So, it was more than a little difficult but when people realised what was happening, they sent a message out to the pilots to come and move their aircraft, so we did get most of them moved but the middle five, the three of them didn’t belong to us, they belonged to 120 Squadron [laughs], which is a bit of a laugh to start with if it did belong to us and you know, so it was sort of case of blowing up and all this sort of thing and of course in those days Perspex in the [unclear] windows was absolutely marvellous stuff and the lads used to make all sorts of things [unclear], cigarette lighters and stuff like that, and cigarette cases, they used to use this stuff like as I saw any, you know, there was a smash, they pick up the bits and take them home and use them. So, I mean, not everything went to waste, but they were exciting days.
HH: So there a lot of aircraft, lot of aircraft got lost in that incident.
AL: Oh yes,
US: Three, wasn’t it?
AL: Mh?
US: You lost three.
AL: Yeah, we did, we lost three, because, you see, the thing is when the first thing went down the chute and the bloke said, bombs away, clear it everybody, everybody was jumping and running but we were in thick fog and so because the aircraft from wingtip to wingtip, once the centre one which didn’t belong to us, was on fire, the ones on either side were in no time at all were on fire as well and what we had to do, we had to send for the pilots, to come and take the aircraft on the edges away, so we were left with, I wonder if three or five, I think it was five aircraft there, they wouldn’t, they couldn’t get on the, sort of the end of the [unclear] because they were too near the ones that were burning, so I had taken the four thousand pound bombs out the night before and what happened, we had the three centre ones blew up but the ones that were burning on the outside, we’d got the fire hoses putting them out and Vivian, she was out there with me on her tractor and we were waiting for the bombs to cool down so we could take them back to the bomb dump afterwards.
HH: Quite a dangerous job.
AL: We didn’t think so at the time [laughs].
HH: What was it like, Alma, on operation’s nights, when there was an operation?
AL: Well, was no different to any other night, really.
HH: Did you tend to be more tense, to wait for planes to come back?
AL: No. No, the thing is, we had to get used to the way things were, that was it, uhm, I mean, most of the girls like me, we had an unwritten law, you don’t get involved with the pilots or the navigators, people like that, cause they may not come back and a lot of them didn’t. And you see, as I say, there was this one night when Terry or morning when Terry turned up and there was only bits of this bloke because the Germans had got, you know, a really good bomb and, but you see, the aircraft itself was so near landing that it managed to land but of course the back end of it was in bits and so was this bloke. So we never got involved with the aircrew, safest not to, the same as when, you see, you had different jobs, sometimes I’ll be driving the tractor and taking the bombs out, sometimes I’ll be driving a lorry and taking the men out or bring them back. I just did what I was told.
HH: And you said that you also did the post run between Lincoln and Waddington.
AL: Oh that was, yes, I did, there was, I’ve got some idea that Scampton was a sort of, not exactly a headquarters but it was a bit sort of more up than some of the others so a lot of the secret mail that used to come in it would, I don’t know how it came, whether it was a bloke on a motorbike or something but this mail that came in could not go through the normal post and it had to be taken, see, so, there were occasions when it was my job to take the stuff over to Waddington and sort of drive through Lincoln to do it and then all the way back with fish and chips and they were all waiting in the empty room when we got back [laughs], all waiting for their fish and chips [laughs].
HH: What was, what rank did you obtain, Alma, what was your rank?
AL: [unclear], leading aircraftswoman, that was all. I never even got to corporal.
HH: And your, can you remember your service number?
AL: 455833 [laughs].
HH: Everyone can do that, it’s quite extraordinary. Yeah, it’s wonderful. And how much, what did you do when you had leave duty?
AL: Uhm, leave, I’m just trying to think, I don’t really remember doing anything.
US: Did you go and visit your mum?
AL: Eh?
HH: Did you go home
US: Did you go [unclear] and visit your mum?
AL: Oh I did go home, there was an uncle, actually he was an uncle and aunt of my mum, they lived in Lincoln and I used to go down and have a meal with them sometimes and because of where he was he got some placards which advertised the local theatre in Lincoln, sometimes he would say to me, would you like a couple of tickets? And I’d take on of the girls with me, we’d go down and see a show down there.
HH: It’s lovely.
AL: So that happened several times and do you know, I can’t even remember his name, nor his wife’s name or what they looked like. It’s a long time ago.
HH: Long time ago.
AL: I can’t. No, I don’t.
US: Your great uncle.
AL: Eh?
Us: That would have been your great uncle.
AL: Yes, yeah. But, they were my mum’s uncle and aunt and because when she heard where I was, she sent me out their address and so I went round to see them so when I was going out in the evening going into Lincoln to get fish and chips, oh, actually, I wasn’t going for the fish and chips, I was going to Waddington to deliver their mail and there was a fish and chips on the way back, but you see, all the girls in the empty, they all used to give me a list of what they wanted, now I used to come back with loads of fish and chips [laughs].
HH: Now, you stayed in Scampton till the end of the war, did you?
US: No.
AL: No, no, I didn’t. Cause I got married and had my first baby, in 1944.
HH: Ok, so you got married in, so you, when, after you were married you left Scampton, is that right?
AL: Uhm,
US: No, no, hang on, [unclear] If you want to get things in chronological order
AL: What?
US: If you want to get things in chronological order, you were sort of telling us that, although you’d worked with dad, he was very shy and you didn’t really sort of make that much contact with him although you’d been out, you know the WAAFs and the lads used to go to Lincoln together
AL: Yeah, we did.
US: But you’d always been a bit shy and you never really approached him and then one night there was that incident with the, [unclear] where the undercarriage collapsed and you had to go out, the night with the torch, that story.
AL: I don’t remember an awful lot about it. He was, he and another bloke, were digging underneath
US: The Lancaster, the undercarriage collapsed from take off
AL: The Lancaster, collapsed, the wheels had collapsed and there was, there were loaded bombs in there and so he and a couple of lads, I remember I was driving a lorry that night because somebody was shouting for a torch and there was an officer sitting with me and I said, there’s a torch there and I drove to and he, do you know, this officer got out of the lorry, round the front of it and disappeared and these blokes were down there so I got out of the lorry, picked up the torch and went over to the lads that were working there trying to dig the, you know, the bottom of the aircraft where the bombs were and they did do it, they defused the four thousand pound, but you see, the others
US: They were on time [unclear] the [unclear] had gone off even though
AL: See so, he did that but you see the incendiaries that were all around, I mean, the, [unclear], eleven, eleven boxes of incendiaries right round the main bomb, and of course they weren’t timed or anything, it was just a big bang on the earth that opened them up and that was it. Long time ago.
HH: Indeed.
US: That was the first you really had any real sort of contact with that, wasn’t it? And after that, you got talking or something.
AL: Yeah. And then I discovered he was jealous. And when we went to, we had a dance in the corporal’s mess and one of the blokes that I knew on a flight came across and asked me for a dance, so I went to dance with him, when I came back there was no sign of Terry. And I thought, that’s funny. And I said to one of the blokes, where did Terry go? Don’t know, he said. So I said, oh, never mind. And he turned up about twenty minutes later and I said to him, where have you been? He said, I couldn’t bear to see you with him, he said, I’ve been for a walk. That was it. He was very jealous. So, that was it. But he was lovely.
HH: Good.
AL: yeah.
HH: And you got married in ’43?
AL: Yeah. Twelfth of September.
HH: And where were you after that?
AL: Do you know, you’ve asked me, I don’t really know. I mean, as soon as I started to expect Leslie I had to leave anyway. But
HH: And where did you live when you left the WAAFs?
AL: I must have gone back to Kingston, to mum’s.
US: You did eventually, but after, you talked about living in Nissen huts of the base, at one stage you moved into married quarters at Scampton, didn’t you?
AL: Oh yes,
US: Was it number 18?
AL: Number 18, yes,
HH: So you stayed in married quarters at Scampton for a while
AL: [unclear]
US: And you were back in the same house that you
AL: Yeah, they gave me same house after the war.
HH: Gosh!
US: Oh yeah, that was after the war, that was the same house where you’ve been billeted with all your mates. Yeah, so Leslie was born
AL: Yeah, Leslie was born in a hospital in Birmingham,
US: Oh, ok.
AL: And it was dreadful. They were awful people.
US: So after you were married then, before Leslie was born you then moved to East Kirkby, didn’t you?
AL: The name is familiar, I can’t put a, I can’t remember what it looked like. East Kirkby, the name is very familiar. Was it round the back of the aerodrome?
US: No. No, it’s South Lincolnshire.
AL: South
HH: It’s near Spilsby.
AL: Yeah, I know.
US: Woodhall Spa.
HH: And Woodhall Spa.
AL: I just can’t remember that bit
US: After Scampton, I can’t remember whether you were married at Scampton or not.
AL: No, we were married at my mum’s place.
US: Alright, ok.
AL: [unclear].
US: Yeah, but I can’t remember whether you were still living at Scampton at the time when you were married or not. But at some stage, 57 Squadron transferred from Scampton to East Kirkby.
AL: Ah yes.
US: And you would, If you would remember you were driving the lead lorry that was coming [unclear]
AL: We had no road signs in those days.
HH: They’d all been taken down.
AL: [unclear] didn’t know where you were going and I was driving the lead lorry, I think there was anything up to fifty vehicles and we’d go down all these country lanes with no road names or anything and every so often I’d stop and there’d be a lot of shouting going on behind and they’d say, let us know when you want to turn because we can’t oversee you when you slip off or something and was something about it and I can’t remember that. But
HH: You got there safely, did you?
AL: Yes, yeah. I don’t even remember, I know I was driving lorries then not, I wasn’t driving in fact the only time I ever drove the CO’s car was to turn it round in the CT garage [laughs]. Yeah, I turned it round that’s all. But I did take two officers down to, they had to go to a meeting somewhere and it was south of Lincoln and I remember there was a river nearby but there was a, where you came round there’s a very steep road and then you turned in and I had to stay there, they gave me the money to go to the pictures, and I don’t know where they went for the afternoon and when I got back to the car, they were both waiting for me so I just took them back to camp. Just one of those odd things that happened.
HH: Yeah.
US: When you got to East Kirkby, you were living off the base there, weren’t you? You remember you were living at that pub called The Vanguard?
HH: The Vanguard pub?
US: Across the far side of the airfield.
AL: Yeah. I don’t remember too much about that.
HH: And then after the war, where were you, where did you?
AL: Went home.
HH: Also to London.
AL: Yeah. Or more or less Kingston-on-Thames.
HH: Kingston-on-Thames. Is that where you were living?
AL: Yeah.
HH: Ok.
AL: Yeah, my mum and dad were there, you see, they moved from Fulham up to Kingston.
US: Well, mum had to leave when sort of, I don’t know whether she declared or whether it became apparent that she was expecting, so she had to leave the WAAFs.
HH: Yeah. And then you had a family after the war. And did you stay in Kingston?
AL: Don’t know [unclear]
US: I don’t know what you did, I think you moved back up to Scampton after the war.
AL: Oh probably we did go back to Scampton.
US: Because wasn’t Valerie born at Scampton?
AL: Mh?
US: Wasn’t Valerie born at Scampton or in Lincoln?
HH: Did your husband stay in the armed forces after the war?
AL: Well, he was a permanent man, he joined, he joined when he was sixteen.
HH: So, he stayed on, ok.
AL: Oh yeah. So, wherever he went, I went, so I’ve been to Iraq and
HH: My goodness. Interesting life.
AL: And Singapore, we’ve lived in Singapore and Iraq. And several different places. [unclear] we just moved from one place to another. And if the people who just moved out didn’t wash the pottery and everything properly, you sat [unclear] and did it yourself.
HH: Amazing, yeah.
US: I think, after going back to Scampton, I think your next move was to Iraq in about 1950.
HH: Gosh!
AL: Yes, sounds about right.
US: To a Place called Habbaniya.
HH: Habbaniya. Ok.
US: Which is just outside, which is actually Bagdad. It’s now Bagdad international airport for two years I think.
HH: And did you have your family with you? You took your children with you to Iraq?
AL: Yeah.
US: The girls. I wasn’t born then.
AL: The girls. I had Leslie and Valerie, and Valerie was a little devil. Used to tell her off for swearing. And she would drop something deliberately and then she would look at me and she would say, shit! [makes a spitting sound] [laughs]
HH: [laughs] So you would, a couple of years in Iraq, so you would seen the world, have you?
AL: Yeah, and Singapore, we lived in Singapore for a couple of years.
HH: And then mostly back in this country.
AL: Yeah, but. I’ve had a good time really.
HH: You’ve had such an interesting life.
AL: Yeah.
HH: Well thank you very much, shall we stop the interview now and we thank you, you worked very hard, I’m sorry that you worked so very hard but thank you for all your wonderful stories.
AL: Well, the thing is, I mean it’s, there were probably others that, you know, if I was nudged I would probably remember them.
HH: Well, if you do we can talk some more. Thank you so much. Thank you.
AL: But, such a long time ago, I remember [file missing]
HH: So you dared to walk on the wing of a Lancaster.
AL: Yeah.
HH: And?
AL: Not while it was flying [laughs]
HH: And did you?
AL: Eh?
HH: Did you?
AL: Yeah. I walked out to I suppose within about two foot of the end of the wing.
HH: Quite a long way out.
AL: I was young and daring then. They said to me, you won’t do it, I said, oh yes, I will [laughs].
US2: Did you tell them about the night when the planes flew off to bomb the dams?
AL: The what?
US2: Did you tell Heather about the night when the planes went off on their mission to bomb the dams?
AL: Oh when they did the Dam busters, yeah [laughs]
US2: [unclear] your friend Vivian.
AL: No, when you say my friend Vivian, she worked in the bomb dump, she knew where aircraft were going. We never did. We would just, we just took the tractor and we would pick up the trailers and Vivian would say, well, you take this to F for Freddy, or G for George or whatever, and you took it to that aircraft and just left, left it there and after they had bombed up the aircraft after the, the lads that did the, oh, the armourers. After the armourers had finished doing their bit, I forgot what I was going to say now,
HH: This is about the Dam busters and your friend Vivian.
AL: Yeah.
HH: The dams raid.
AL: Yeah, because I said to Vivian, when the Dam busters went off that night, there were nineteen of them and only eleven came back and I can remember, I got a photograph of, I don’t know where it is of Vivian stood there, somebody took a photograph, wasn’t me cause I didn’t have the camera, yeah, she, cause I said to her, she was out there the next morning and when we heard that nine hadn’t come back and I remember saying to Vivian, you didn’t tell me it was the real thing! She said, well, I wasn’t supposed to. That was it. I’m sorry really that I’ve didn’t keep up with her cause I’d like to, you know, I’ve liked to keep in touch after the war but we didn’t, we just went our own separate ways, very well. But, very well.
HH: Can you remember what was Vivian’s surname in those days?
AL: Winsome. Yeah. She’s very tall, she’s much taller than me. And she was the one who found out what bit of the tractor engine you had to tie a string on if you wanted to go faster than five miles an hour. And so she [unclear] my mind up, so that I could do it but you, you could only get up to, it was only two or three miles faster than we could normally do. And
HH: I also asked you what your maiden name was and what were you known as in the WAAF.
AL: Turner.
HH: Because some people had then, you know, were known by nicknames, weren’t they?
AL: Yes, they were. I don’t think I was.
US: Well, Dad had a nickname, didn’t he?
AL: Ey?
US: Dad had a nickname, he was Lofty, wasn’t he?
AL: Yeah, dad was Lofty, because he was so tall.
HH: Because of his height, yeah, yeah.
AL: But I don’t think I had that. Oh, you got some of the pictures in there?
US: Remind you of something, these aren’t in order.
AL: Well, that’s me when I was young [laughs].
US: It’s true, just about the right time.
AL: That’s me when I was fifteen. And that’s me with Gladys. She was our lodger, she came from somewhere on the east coast and that’s Terry.
US: That was the wedding. Yeah.
HH: 1943.
AL: Oh yeah, there’s Terry and there’s me. And that’s his brother, who now unfortunately has died. That was Leslie as well and that’s my dad and that was my friend Norma. And that was next door’s little girl. There’s my dad and my mum and that was Auntie Madge and Uncle Tom, Auntie Eva, don’t know her name, that was me. That, I think that was Terry’s dad.
US: Looks like him.
AL: Yeah, I think that one was Terry’s dad, because that one is Terry’s brother, that’s Terry. Auntie somebody but she wasn’t a real auntie and there is Graham, my brother.
US: [unclear] So, what was, say a little bit about that.
AL: [laughs] we had a [unclear] and we were in the concert
HH: This is in Scampton.
US: I think so.
AL: I think it was, yeah. But I don’t remember the other two girl’s names. There’s [unclear] was, I did remember it the other day, but it’s gone again and it wasn’t spring is in the air but it was something like that, no. No, we put on a concert.
US: I remember you still had that jumper years later.
AL: I did [laughs]. Yeah, that’s when Leslie was born.
US: Scampton, was it?
AL: No, was Auntie Eva’s place.
US: Ok.
AL: Auntie Eva’s place that was.
US: And then there is a reference here to RAF Cardington.
HH: Gosh!
US: Were you there?
AL: No, I wasn’t there, Terry got posted there.
US: Maybe you were in London.
AL: No, I don’t think, that was 1945. So it was two years after we got married. He probably, he was probably posted.
US: Looked like you were in Scampton in ’47, with your dog.
AL: That’s N*****, not allowed to call them N***** now, are you? That was our N*****, he was lovely. And that’s Leslie, that’s Leslie with N***** when he was, we really got the dog for Leslie because I was shopping down in Lincoln and I went into the butcher’s and I was, you know, just getting something, was it the butcher’s? No, it wasn’t the butcher’s, it was another shop because Leslie was sat in the front seat and I had her, that’s right, and this fellow came out and he said something about a dog, he said, we found a dog in a field, that was it, it wasn’t very far away from Lincoln, his son was in the army and they bought him this puppy and his son was in the army, went to Germany and was killed and they couldn’t bear to look at the dog. So I said, I’ll take him home and so I did, so I had N***** for, how many years?
US: You must have had him from, well, I don’t know when you first got him but you probably had him to about 1950, ’51, ’52?
AL: He was quite young when I got him.
US: What happened to N***** when you were in Iraq?
AL: Mum looked after him.
US: So he was, he was still there when you got back?
AL: Yes.
US: Was he?
AL: And he went mad when he saw Terry. He suddenly realised it was Terry at the bottom of the garden.
US: And did you have him at Winterbourne Gunner as well?
AL: Yes, yeah, we did.
US: Ok. You must have had him at least ten years then.
AL: We did, he was, I think he was about ten or eleven when he died. It was a shame really, cause he was a gorgeous dog.
US: What else we got here.
AL: We got some more pictures. Do you know, I was looking at that and I was thinking, oh, I ought to know.
US: Ok.
AL: I don’t know him but I should know her.
US: Ok. [unclear] written on the back, what we got here, oh, we got Newark there.
HH: Oh yeah.
AL: Oh yeah. It’s me and Terry with Leslie, our first baby.
HH: Lovely.
AL: That’s me and that’s Terry. And that was our first one. And this is N***** as well with Leslie.
US: Scampton in ’46.
AL: Yes, Scampton 1946. It was an awful cold winter then, it really was. That’s a nice photograph of Terry.
US: Still 1948.
AL: Yeah. We were there quite a long time, weren’t we?
US: Mh.
AL: Oh, that’s when the [unclear] was in London.
US: 1951 then.
AL: We took the kids down.
US: Might go back, these are not in chronological order. Just family photographs.
AL: That’s N*****. He’s gorgeous.
HH: Lovely dog.
US: That must have been when we were at Winterbourne Gunner, old Sarum.
AL: Winterbourne Gunner.
US: Well, it must have been
AL: Ruins, Old Sarum, yes, it is.
US: Oh, tell them about the caravan.
HH: You’ve got a caravan story, have you?
AL: Well, the thing is, we went back to Winterbourne Gunner, when we were stationed there and there were no married quarters available so we bought this caravan [laughs]. And we lived in the caravan on the hill, about half way up from where the, what was the name of the unit where we were staying then?
US: Well, Boscombe Down.
AL: Boscombe Down. And she remembers more than I do.
HH: So what was it like living in a caravan?
AL: Oh, it’s quite ok.
US: See the size of it.
AL: We watched the big, when they were electing the mayor, not mayors, the
HH: General election?
AL: MH?
HH: General election?
AL: Yes. We went to a general election while we were there because we sat up at night with the television on and everything you know. And that’s when we went down to Cheddar Gorge. Weren’t you with us then?
US: No. Wasn’t born then.
AL: Mh?
US: Wasn’t born then.
AL: Oh, it must have been a later time. That’s Winterbourne, Janet, Janet and Susan they were [unclear] children not mine, who’s with Janet?
US: That’s your niece. Graham’s daughter.
AL: Who?
US: Graham’s daughter.
AL: Oh, is it?
US: yeah.
AL: Well, I’ve forgotten. That’s Cheddar Gorge. 1952, that’s the girls, Leslie and Valerie and that’s them again with the dogs.
HH: I want to take a picture [unclear].
AL: I think that’s it, is it?
US: That’s it for that album.
HH: I’m just going to take a nice picture. I’m going to say thank you again and turn this. So tell me about flying in a Lancaster.
AL: [unclear] after the war, wasn’t it?
US: No, it wasn’t. I don’t think so.
US2: Your mum’s [unclear] taxi right now. Rich is thinking about the time
US: The time when, do you remember the one about the pilot who had to do his retaining because he had a problem with landings?
AL: Oh, yes [laughs]
US: There you are, in your own words.
AL: That’s right, uhm, now, we were on night duty and what had happened? This particular pilot was having problems landing at the right place at the right time. And when the aircraft came back from the raid that night, the officer that was in charge of that group, he said, you need some more basic training, he says, so it’s ok of [unclear]
HH: Circuits and bumps.
AL: Circuits and bumps, I was trying to think of, was a case of circuits and bumps for him and of course I was on night duty then and, O for Orange he drove, he was in O for Orange because the funny thing was when he came down, my friend Vivian, she was running the flight path from her tractor, some sort of car tow, thing that was out on the aerodrome, and she was working on that, I was down, I was down the front, oh dear, a very difficult time for me, he came, that’s right, the night before there’d been a bomb raid on and when he came back, he made a bad landing and I remember that the rear gunner, he was so worried about it that as the plane hit the ground, he spun it round and jumped out. He did
US: Spun the turret round
AL: And, yeah, he spun it round, he jumped out [laughs]. Mind you that the aircraft was practically at the standstill by then so he didn’t come to any harm but he said I’m not going with that [unclear] any more [laughs].
US: So you were gonna say what the CO did to him? He made him do circuits and bumps and how did you end up being in the aeroplane?
AL: [unclear], yeah, I was just on duty that night, I can’t remember, I think I was driving a lorry. Trying to think what his name was but I can’t remember it. No, it’s gone, I can’t remember it.
US2: I think you and your girls were off at a ride, weren’t you?
AL: Mh?
US2: You and some of the other girls were off at a ride.
US: Yeah, how did you come to be off at the
AL: What?
US: How did you come to off at the chance to go up in the Lancaster when you were [unclear]?
AL: Well, that actually was a deliberate thing, the CO was very good, several of the girls asked could they go up on one of the Lancasters and on this particular occasion he said, yes, six of you can go. And six of us went, and we didn’t realise until after we took off that it was the bloke who was not doing his landings very well the night before [laughs], the first time he came down, we bounced nine times [laughs], and we were all in there and one of the girls was sick, I know, I was sat in the wireless operator’s seat and when we hit the ground the first time I left the seat [unclear], my head was practically on the ceiling [laughs], but you know we all had a good laugh out of it [laughs]. That is the sort of things that happened.
US: And do you remember anything else about the flight in the Lancaster?
AL: Which one?
US: How many times did you go round and land?
HH: Did you have to do lots of circuits and bumps with him?
AL: Yeah, I think we went round four or five times. But, you know, we were more or less prepared [coughs]. I know I stayed by the bomb aimer’s table [laughs] but I think two of the girls were sick [laughs] when we hit the ground but
HH: Dear, dear.
AL: It’s a long time ago.
HH: I’m gonna take another pickie. That’s a nice picture of you in your uniform.
AL: Oh yeah.
HH: I’ll send you these in an email. No.
AL: I mean, I’m gonna be ninety four next month.
HH: Which is wonderful, yeah.
US2: I’m not sure if I heard you say at the beginning about when you were having your driver training.
AL: Mh?
US2: I’m not sure whether I heard you say at the beginning when you were having your driver training, that you used to have, you were telling me the other day about the lectures that you were going to and you and your friends used to get [unclear] music [unclear]
AL: That was when Max
US2: Wall
AL: Max Wall, he was our sergeant in those days, and because we, half way through, I mean, he was really keeping us occupied cause he didn’t know what else to do with us, because some of our group were, who said they were willing to do desk work, they got send down to London so the group got a bit smaller, I’m trying to think what happened to the rest of us. I know the group did get smaller, we had to go, we had to go on this test to see where, it was a weird test, we had, there was a woman there and she had a, she had [unclear] in each hand and we had sheets of paper in front of us with a pen in one hand and a pencil in the other and every time she went sort of like that, we’d do a sort of a round and we had to listen for a horn so if the horn went, there was a little circle in the middle and you had to squiggle in there so and then well afterwards they would check all these pieces of paper to see how close to the truth you were, we were.
HH: So that sounds like today the equivalent of today’s theory test.
AL: Would it?
HH: I don’t know.
AL: I don’t know.
US2: [unclear] wasn’t it, called [unclear]?
AL: [unclear] was lovely, uhm, because that’s sort of round the curve and they were just round the, we were round the top a bit round the curve and at tea time [coughs] we saw the, [unclear] the fish, they’re not fish, the well-known, well, I suppose they are fish really.
HH: Dolphins.
AL: Yes, and it was beautiful sort of spring evening with low sunshine and they used to come around [coughs].
HH: Lovely.
AL: Some of the girls took photographs, I didn’t have a camera. And, a long time ago now.
HH: It is. Thank you Alma. [file missing] Ok, tell us the story of how you got bullets in your tractor.
AL: Well, what had actually happened was I had the tractor out in the daytime, doing the usual jobs, you know, [unclear] bombs about and that sort of stuff and that, was it that evening? I put the tractor away, when I got back down the next morning, I discovered that the armoury, what’s it, I’m trying to think of his rank, I can’t think of it anyway, eh?
US2: The rifle sergeant or something?
AL: No. No, he wasn’t as high up as that, [laughs], no, what happened, he, I don’t know why he had my tractor but he did, now, earlier on we had a raid over Germany, and I mean, at this time of night, I was either in the pub or gone to bed. So, it was quite late. And apparently what happened was that our blokes went over to Germany, did their bombing and everything but while they were there a German fighter plane tapped on the back end of them when they were coming home and it was when they got back to the airfield, the corporal who had borrowed my tractor for whatever reason I don’t know, cause I wasn’t even on duty then, but he borrowed my tractor and started off to get it back to the, you know, sort of empty headquarters but he didn’t have enough sense to turn the lights off, you see, so the German aircraft came down and started firing at him and he just got off the tractor [laughs], he just ran away but the tractor was there with the lights on, see so, the fellow who was bombing the tractor, there was only a tractor, see so he didn’t bomb and he finally disappeared. That was it. It was hardly worth mentioning really [laughs].
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Alma Leedham
Creator
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Heather Hughes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-14
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALeedhamA160514
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Alma Leedham grew up in London and worked for Hawker aircraft on the Hurricane at the start of the war . She later trained as a driver in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force. She served at RAF Scampton driving tractors taking bombs to the aircraft. Mentions various episodes of her service life: a flash accidentally blowing up a fully bombed Lancaster and setting fire to other nearby aircraft; delivering post from Scampton to Waddington; meeting her husband, a flight sergeant; her tractor being targeted by a German fighter plane. Describes the relationships between the WAAFs and the ground and aircrews at the base. Remembers the night the Dam Busters went on their operation. Tells of her family life after the war.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1943
Format
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01:24:34 audio recording
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
animal
bomb dump
bomb trolley
bombing up
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
ground personnel
hangar
Lancaster
love and romance
Manchester
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Scampton
service vehicle
tractor
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
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24a7a8e8bd1071e1d8094a59c38745ef
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2487/42972/ATeasdaleA221220.2.mp3
b5a71ed1000342febb67d638c48a5934
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Teasdale, Audrey
Audrey Pitts
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. An oral history interview with Audrey Teasdale (b. 1923, 2135963 Royal Air Force) and photographs. She served as a WAAF in the officers' mess at RAF Waddington.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Audrey Teasdale and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2022-12-20
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Teasdale, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AT: Er, from my own point of view I, you know, after the exam had gone before I got my act together and so none of us really managed a qualification, but we were all very well educated. And my Harry, er my two eldest brothers, they both worked in the Coal Board, as I said, my father was a colliery manager and Fred was in administration with the local authority. My Tom, the middle brother, he finished up as a company secretary for the Coal Board. We did all our study after school, y'know, we did it all off our own bats and erm...
BW: So was it night school that you went to?
AT: Night school and as we progressed, you'll see what I did, y'know but er, so it was night school and it was, y'know, interesting things and, you know, getting on with life generally and we had this encouragement from home and...
BW: You say your Mother was Victorian, she worked in service.
AT: In service yes, yes...
BW: Whereabouts did she work, was it a grand house or something?
AT: Yes, she's worked, yes, cos there's photograph there, I think, with one of the people she was with. Oh no, yeah, yeah. She worked with gentry but she also, at one point, worked at the girls grammar school in Wakefield. Yes but lovely lady.
BW: And what age were you when you left school?
AT: 14.
BW: Which was standard at that time.
AT: Standard, yes. And, do you want to know my occupation from then on?
BW: Yeah, what did you go on to do?
AT: My first occupation, I used to walk to the station, which was a mile away, then get a train to Leeds. And I worked for a firm called Barrens and it was a tailoring firm and I worked in their offices and it all related to production and y'know, what they were using and the sort of stuff that went on to the actual finished product and that sort of thing. So I did clerical work with them and I followed on where I got a job in Wakefield. I worked with a jeweler, a very top shop jewelers, you know, it was Appleyard's, in a terrific arcade, terrific shop. So I went there and then from there I was always sort of in the retail business and I went to work at the Co-op, ha! And I worked in the furnishing department where I was first assistant and I did all the erm, now then, the word, you know when they can't afford to pay...
BW: Debt.
AT: Er, actually making out the agreements for them to sign, you know, when they'd got x number of years to pay it in, y'know, that sort of thing. The name just escapes me.
BW: Repayments?
AT: Er, yeah, it was, it was, y'know, basically the lay out of what they'd bought, the interest to be paid and, and the period that they were going to pay it in. Yes, and that was it, all official and then they made the payments to the [unclear] and I did that and I was first assistant for sales.
01:08:24
BW: How long were you doing that job for?
AT: Oh it was, y’know, it was sort of between the jobs, you know, between that and my service really and er, yeah, and I did sort of clerical work and I actually went into the WAAF from there.
BW: Do you remember where you were, where your family was, when war was declared?
AT: At home. Yes, yes, er my youngest brother, the two boys - the elder brothers, they obviously were in the Coal Board, working in the Coal Board, and of course, were exempt. Fred, the youngest one, was in administration with the local authority and of course, he was conscripted. And he was in the Green Howard Regiment and stationed in Northern Ireland. But he never went abroad. A great brother and we used to, when I was in the WAAF, we used to write to each other and he kept in touch with home, and y’know, we'd always continue, you know, keeping in touch.
BW: So how old were you then when war was dec... when war broke out?
AT: About 23 and it broke out in '39...
BW: So you [unclear].
AT: Yes and then I went to, went to, I was conscripted and then I actually went into the WAAF 15th December 1942.
BW: So, what sort of choice did you have? You mentioned you were conscripted, how did that work, particularly for women because we think of men as being primarily conscripted but...
AT: Yes. I sort of could have gone the fire brigade, which didn't appeal at all [laughs]. Land Army but I think what did it [laughs] I was out one day and I saw this advert [laughs] "Join the WAAF and work with the men who fly", and I thought, 'That's for Audrey' [laughs]. So that's what I did.
BW: OK
AT: And of course, I could have been anything then, I could have been a balloon operator - barrage balloon, doing anything, really. But basically, all my time I was in the officer's mess and my, all my work was generally clerical and y’know, relating to the crews and different things.
BW: So you decided to join the WAAF. Did you, ah, it may be perhaps too detailed but I'm just interested to understand did you have to go into the air force recruitment office to complete that or was it different, did you go in to sign up?
AT: Er, I remember, you made the decision to go and then of course it just took place after that. I remember going down to, I can't remember where it was but I was interviewed and it was discussed and yeah. That's very vague to me but I do remember that.
BW: I was going to ask you about your interview and whether there was a particular test that you sat for example, maths or English or anything like that?
AT: No, no qualifications. Basically it was the things you were interested in.
BW: And how long between you being conscripted did it take for you to actually get into training?
AT: More or less immediately.
BW: Right.
AT: Yes, I remember I, it was, 15th December '42 and I went, I think, to Innesworth in Gloucester, where I was kitted out then that didn't take long and then I came back to Morecambe to do my square bashing and I was there about a fortnight. We lived, I lived in billets in the West End of Morecambe and that was very funny.
BW: How long did you spend there?
AT: Just a fortnight. It was a training and it was so funny because obviously it was winter, it was December, it was icy. We had a flight sergeant who did a thing and I'll be [laughs], quite [unclear] what he said but we couldn't stand up and he said, "What do you want me to do? Whistle the bloody skater's waltz?" [laughs]. And the other thing that was interesting about the square bashing was, they'd horses on the promenade and there was poo all over the place and you were marching away merrily and if you got your foot in that everybody got it from behind. You used to be absolutely blathered sometimes. But, that was quite an experience, the icing and the horse poo [laughter].
BW: And I believe you would have your passing out parade on Morecambe prom, is that right?
AT: Yes, yes...yeah.
BW: And it must have been pretty close to Christmas when you passed out of your fortnight's training.
AT: Yes, yes...yeah.
BW: Or just past.
AT: Yes, yeah. I can't remember that but I do know I went from there to Lindholme, Doncaster. I didn't stay there very long. I don't know, really and there was a lot of army personnel there at that time. And I don't know what the purpose of that. I wasn't there that very long and then I got a posting to Waddington. And when I got to Waddington, my time at Waddington, I was actually with 9 Squadron, which was English, 44 Squadron, which was Rhodesian and 467 and 463 which were Australian and I sort of did my service there. And from the first day, you know, I sort of worked in the officer's mess and I did lots of clerical work relating to that. Occasionally I did waitressing and I always used to get the job of the VIPs who would have a special room and I would serve them. Like Wing Commander Nettleton VC. I met him. And lots of personalities, you know, they came through. You know, met a lot of people.
BW: You mentioned Wing Commander Nettleton.
AT: Yes.
BW: He led, I think, the raid on Augsburg, which was quite a famous raid.
AT; Yes.
BW: What were your recollections of him? Did you meet him often?
AT: Lovely man. And he married a WAAF officer. Yeah and I remember service tea for them when they came, when she came. Yeah, yeah.
BW: So you were on the base, there, at Waddington, in the officer's mess, were you there pretty much all of the time, were all your duties conducted in...?
AT: In the officer's mess, yes. I did, sort of, I used to get the, the battle orders, if you'd like to call them that and I knew the crews, where they were going and they used to get a special meal when they were going on a flight cos it was often a nine hour flight and I used to, you know, make sure that they got their flight [meal], you know. They all passed through the desk and I checked that they were there and that they should get this meal, and what have you and, so that was that and of course, when they came back and...
BW: So, because the orders were going through your desk as an admin clerk, you would probably know where they were going before they did.
AT: Yeah, yeah.
BW: And was it you that put the orders up on the board each night?
AT: No, no. I was just responsible for the crews, the crews that, you know, who was going through. And this was another funny thing, they were so funny, the life they were living and you know, it was a case of eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we, we'd be...they were so, so, you know. And so respectful that it wasn't like it is today, it was, the changes in men's [sic] because they'd so much. I think probably in the early days of the war, when the WAAFs and sort of, army, you know they got the women in, I think probably in the early days they got a lot of the rough but at the time that I was going in, in '42, we got the greatest respect. And they, the crews, knew exactly who was who and what was what and...you understand what I am saying? And, yes, they made an effort. But what I was saying, they were so funny cos, I remember one time, [they were returning] and I was sat at my desk and I looked up at this officer and he smelt beautiful [laughs] and you know, for one moment, I thought, "Anything I can help you with?" and I said, "Have you been flying, Sir?" He says, "No, I've been for a walk in the park!" [laughter]. Yes, so, needless to say, he hadn't but he'd obviously managed to shower and smell beautiful [chuckles].
BW: So, where were you, yourself, billeted?
AT: I were in the Waafery [sic], a beautiful house, I don't know if it's still there, a beautiful old building on the left as you went into the 'drome. Do you know the Waafery? I might have a photograph somewhere.
BW: That was the name of it - The Waafery?
AT: Yes, yeah, yeah. And there was, we used lovely bedrooms and I think I may remember, I was on the ground floor and there was three of us in most bedrooms and, there was a night when someone got through the window on the ground floor - he was obviously looking for a WAAF but [laughs] it wasn't one of us three [laughs]. So, yeah, I lived in there.
BW: So, did you make good friends with the other WAAFs there?
AT: Yes, very good, yes. I've got pictures of them. Yes, really good friendships. And all the staff I worked with, really, because there was the cooking staff and y’know, and everything that went with...and I used to go to some beautiful functions, you know, the officers used to have at The Bulls Head and I mean, the food wasn't a problem, y’know, you got beautiful food and everything and we were just on duty, basically, to see if everything was all going alright.
BW: So it wasn't just your room mates you got on well with, you got on well with the other...
AT: I got on well with the crews and everyone, hmm. Yes, there were, I mean, the English, y’know, were very much the stiff upper lip type and a little bit more serious, 'Yes sir and no sir, three bags full, sir', sort of thing but the, er, Rhodesian and the, y’know, Australian they were so laid back, you know. I mean, we didn't, we couldn't have hair on our shoulders and we were not supposed to fraternise with the officers but, you know, they were so completely different to our officers. Nevertheless, our officers were still very nice.
BW: So, the officer's mess wasn't segregated between squadrons presumably, it was a large - was it a large mess for all of them?
AT: It was a large mess and of course, you had your sergeant's mess and your other ranks, yeah but you know, if I, on my first day arriving back on camp I was in the other rank but I spent my...
BW: So what would a typical day look like?
AT: In what respect?
BW: Well, what would you, would you sort of be up maybe six in the morning and into work for eight or what? And would you spend, say, half the day in the office and the other time at mealtimes on shift? How would it work for you?
AT: No, it wasn’t.. I don't remember it being too specific because you had flights at different times and you know, it varied.
BW: So you were just required to serve meals at particular...?
AT: Times, yeah. And operational meals were separate of course, at a different time of the day but I don't even remember what sort of a shift I worked, you know, the hours I worked or anything. But it was all very normal to me, you know, nothing outrageous.
BW: So it seemed fairly regular hours and then would you have evenings off, most evenings?
AT: Oh yes, yes. Yes, you'd nothing after a meal was served, really. And, of course, at that time I could have been somewhere else, i.e. they weren't all going on operations, yeah.
BW: You mentioned, erm, serving meals to crews who would be out on the night raids, on the missions into Germany and occupied territory, did you ever get to hear what their targets were, did you get a sense of where they were going or was it only when they came back?
AT: Only when they came back, really, yes, yes and you know, it wasn't, that was unpleasant, really because we knew them so well and you know so many went for a burton and, you know their life span wasn't very long, was it? For a, y’know, a newly qualified pilot who would probably be 19 or 20, you know, going on their first ops and lifespan were about a fortnight, wasn't it.
BW: So, when the crew lists were up and there was a raid on for that night, would you be serving them their meal around lunchtime or mid afternoon?
AT: Well the night raids it would be going on, you know, towards you know and have the time to check in, you know, that sort of thing.
BW: Yeah. I was just thinking, because they'd have to allow, you know, you sort of work back from when they would have to be over the target and they've got to go to briefing
AT: Yes and they got to go to briefing, yes, all that, yeah. But, I didn't particularly clock all that because I worked to a timetable.
BW: And when you got the time off on the evenings, what kind of things were you able to do, socially?
AT: There were always something, I mixed with people then and you know, we used to get to dances in the sergeant's mess and there was sport, I used to play tennis and we were always going down to the local pub and celebrating something, y’know, someone had done their first trip or finished a tour of ops or it was somebody's 21st birthday or, y’know, something. We'd a nice social life and we used to go to the villages nearer and we had bikes and we used to cycle to the other villages and go to the village dances and we did a lot of dancing, ha! [chuckling].
BW: Did you get into Lincoln, itself?
AT: Yes. Now, at the weekends, we were allowed to wear civilian clothes and y’know, when we went dancing and there's an officer there in a crew, who, we won [chuckles], we won a jitterbugging competition [unclear]. You know, it was lovely, there was a lovely spirit, lovely. We'd lots of things to do, really.
BW: So who would you socialise more with because you were working in the officer's mess, dances in the sergeant's mess, so would you mix more with officers or with NCOs or with other ranks?
AT: I think I probably mixed more with the officers but I still enjoyed the company of the sergeant's mess so, or the other ranks, if it comes to that. But, Brian Fallon, one of the officers, actually come [sic] and spent a leave at my home in West Yorkshire. You know, I had a lot of contact with them and I suppose I was more inclined to have...but nevertheless, I did, er. I've got a thing there, somewhere, where it was an invitation to the last dance of the 467 Squadron or something like that, you know.
BW: And was Waddington where you stayed throughout your WAAF service?
AT: No, when, oh... nine squadron went to Bardney and the Rhodesian squadron moved on and so the last few years I was with 467 and 463 and er. What was the question there?
BW: Did you stay at Waddington or did you move on elsewhere?
AT: Ah, yeah, I went to, when I left Waddington, cos it was at the end of the war, I went down to Silverstone in Northants and that was, you know, there wasn't a great deal to do. It was almost like a civilian thing because we were preparing to be demobbed. But there again, we had a nice carry on, I remember being introduced to greyhound racing [chuckles], when I was in Silverstone. Now then, what was the name of the place, it begins a 'B'... Anyway, I can't remember it. And we used to go to this, and there was a chappie who worked with the greyhounds and the first race you could guarantee a 'cert' and he used to mark our cards for us [laughter]. I always remember thinking, "Oh, if I had only had just put my wedge on it..." but I didn't, I just put my pittance cos it was so little.
BW: So what did you get paid?
AT: I can't remember, but I do remember, at one point, I got an increase and instead of saluting and saying "963" I said, "Thank you!" [laughs]. I was so delighted! Not very popular! [laughter]
BW: So Silverstone was quite different to being at Waddington. You must have been at Waddington, probably, 18 months - two years, easily?
AT: Two years yes. I spent very little time at Lindholme.
BW: Were there particular raids or events that you remember at Waddington? Because the squadrons took part in them during that time but I wonder if anything came out through the talk with the squadrons or [unclear]
AT: No, no. I remember the experience, various experiences, because I remember seeing the greatest bonfire of my life when I was at Waddington because I was watching them come back and I was stood next to a WAAF officer, she was watching as well and they German, the Messerschmidt followed them back and they strafed the 'drome and they didn't hit a Lancaster bomber but beyond, which offices, was the incendiary dump and they hit that and poosh! You can imagine, the place was lit up, it was amazing. That was an experience. Different things happened, you know.
BW: When people look at photos and some film footage they would see, as the bombers took off, people gathered at the halt point waving them off...
AT: Yes, I personally and others, used to go and walk on the perimeter track and we were living very dangerous cos of the 1000 lb bombs but we used to go and wave them off cos, you know, we knew the crews and where they were going. We used to go onto the perimeter track.
BW: And did you watch them come back?
AT: Well, no, no because that could have been early hours, you know, whatever. Basically, we went to see them off.
BW: And, it might sound a daft question but, were you attached to a particular aircraft, did you recognise particular aircraft or did you just generally go and wave everybody off?
AT: Yes, yes, we knew the crews and different things and, of course, as you'll be aware, Hitler said that no enemy plane would ever fly over the German territory but at Waddington, we reach a hundred trips and I've got some classified photographs of the bombers, y'know and 'S' for Sugar, obviously there'd been more than one crew that did the hundred trips but that particular 'S' for Sugar did the hundredth trip [sic].
BW: Did you ever - you were obviously good friends with the pilots and crew - did you ever get shown around a Lancaster, did you ever get inside one?
AT: Yes, I've been inside one, yes.
BW: Did they ever take you flying on one?
AT: I never took, actually, after the war, the WAAFs, we could go to do a parachute jump and what have you and, it got off the ground and then I think there was an incident and the WAAFs panicked and it stopped. Yes, so we'd that opportunity. But I've obviously been in and I've sat in every seat, I've even been in the bomb aimer's part [chuckles], y'know. So I knew the aircraft very well.
BW: And at the time you were there they were mainly flying Lancasters, did you, did they fly anything else, were there other aircraft that came onto the base that you could go and see?
AT: No. Of course the Spitfire pilots were escorts, you know, for the bombers. A lot of Canadians and Polish people flew the Spitfires but generally, it was strictly Lancasters. I mean, you mentioned the Stirling, you know, I didn't see anything of those. Of course, I was around when there was all the talk about the Dambusters and Barnes Wallis and the bouncing bomb and, I didn't, I actually, I didn't personally meet, I wasn't personally introduced but, Gibson came to the 'drome at one point. So I was around when all this was happening.
BW: So when you heard about the dams raid, what was the atmosphere like, how did you feel when you heard about it?
AT: The Dambusters? Oh it was amazing because there was an awful lot of work went into it, you know, a lot of tests and then for them to actually crack it and flood everything I felt it was amazing. I mean, it was a serious business, I always say it was an experience I wouldn't have liked to have missed but there was a lot of sadness and, you know er and I mean, like its happening in Ukraine now but I mean we flattened Stuttgart and Berlin and y' know, but its all, but that was on targets, wasn't it, it wasn't on civilians but nevertheless, they got involved in it, didn't they? So there were lots of civilians.
BW: Did you hear about these raids when crews came back? What was the atmosphere like in the mess, I mean you'd served some of these guys before they went out. What happened when, you know, the crews perhaps didn't come back?
AT: Well, obviously, there were the sadness, you know, because people had got to...and there's crews, you know and of course, a lot of the...I knew a friend, actually, who flew and, he erm, they got shot down and, for a while I didn't personally get to know whether...anything but I did keep in touch with Peter's parents, he lived in Watford and I remember the number, Bushy Heath, 1428 [laughs]. And it was Peter Kimber and I think, actually they'd a hairdressing business in London and I think, family must still be running that. But for my 21st birthday he bought me a Mason & Pearson hair brush [laughs], which was very expensive for me then. [laughter]. Yeah, erm, no, they'd obviously, they'd, you know, the crews were all gelled together, you know, and, but er... [siren]
BW: Sorry about that. So, yeah, you said the crews were all gelled together.
AT: Yes, yes, and there wasn't a morbid, nothing morbid about it. It was a job, it was a duty and y'know, they got on with it.
BW: Did you...I'm just trying to picture the scene in the mess when the crews come back for their first meal after a raid and obviously you, as catering staff or general staff, you're serving in the mess, you'd be laying the places...
AT: I wouldn't be there when they came in, I'd not necessarily be there but there was no, nothing morbid or...I mean, they weren't throwing a party but y'know, it was a job.
BW; And you'd only find out later, of course, whether...
AT: The crews that had gone missing hadn't got back. You checked in everybody who was coming back, y'know but of course, the others...[unclear].
BW: And you mentioned earlier that fraternising with the aircrew, whether officers or other ranks, wasn't allowed but obviously it went on. Did you or your friends, your friends in particular, end up in serious relationships?
AT: No, no. I had, mine were friendships, y'know, I had some great friendships but, no, I came home and married someone from the village [chuckles]. But, y'know, I enjoyed the time and I had some respect for people and, yeah. I mean Brian Fallon came home but, well, we just, y'know, it was a friendship and we just, I was giving him the opportunity to come and have a civilian life, if you like, at my home.
00:32:38
BW: How did your parents feel about you being in the WAAF and on an operational base?
AT: My Mum was very worried initially but obviously, no objections to the decisions I made. But, obviously, I'd never been away from home, y'know and it was a big thing to do really, wasn't it?
BE: And did you, yourself, get leave, periodically?
AT: Oh yes, yes, it was about every six or eight weeks, leave, yeah, yeah. And yes, y'know, my parents always liked to see me. But my brother, Fred, my youngest brother, the one in Northern Ireland with the Green Howards, he used to write to me and of course he knew everything and the people I were meeting, and what have you and he wrote a letter to my mother and he says, "Mum," he says, "Audrey's life must be mangled something rotten." cos I was always telling him of someone, y'know, a friend, who had gone for a burton, y'know.
BW: And you were talking about Scampton, before we began recording, it had a reputation as a jinx base?
AT: Yes, we used to feel that, the jinx, because, yes, there was always some incident on take-off or something, y'know, we at Waddington always regarded it as a jinx. It was just, just happening there. And of course it was Lancaster bombers then.
BW: And were then any other bases that had a similar reputation or others that had a particularly strong reputation?
AT: No, Scampton was the only name that I remember ever being connected with anything like that, y'know, just felt that there was something...y'know? I never watched anything that weren't always airborne, y'know, they got off and they were away.
BW: And have you ever seen the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight since, have you seen the Lancaster fly, since?
AT: No.
BW: I was just curious if you'd seen it and whether it provoked any particular memories when you saw it fly. But if you've not seen it...
AT: I've only ever seen in parades like, in anything to do with London and armistice and what have you. In fact I, while I've been here, I've got back into art and doing things and for Remembrance Day I did a wall in the dining room and I had the Lancaster bomber and I had poppies coming out of the rear, just for...
BW: And that was just for the painting...
AT: Just for the painting, yes, yeah, yeah. Just for, y'know, for remembering. And we did a lovely wall this time, didn't we, for the armistice.
BW: So, you moved down to Silverstone in Northants, after Waddington and I'm assuming this would be around early '45, cos you said you were demobbed from there.
AT: Yes, it was about August-ish [sic] time, somewhere round about then.
BW: They started flying POWs back from Germany and Continental Europe, did you get to meet any POWs, did you see the Lancasters bringing them back at all?
AT: No, no, I was aware of, y'know, we had prisoners of war, they were actually on the camp, doing jobs, y'know, we had Germans, Italians, erm. I remember those two nationalities specifically, the prisoners were working on the camp.
BW: That's really interesting because I've not heard of that before. I've heard of, obviously, enemy POWs being held in the UK but not that they were working on RAF bases.
AT: Yeah, yeah, well I'm sure I'm right. Yeah.
BW: And what kind of things would they be doing?
AT: Nothing terribly important, they couldn't get themselves into trouble.
BW: Presumably they were just labouring.
AT: General labouring, I'd put it down like that. But I learned a few words of [chuckles] "Bellagambi" [belle gambe] was going round quite a lot.
Ann: Nice legs! [laughter].
AT: Nice legs! [laughter].
BW: That was from the Italian POWs.
AT: The Italians, yes, yeah [chuckles], yeah, yes. No, they were definitely on the camp because I can't imagine where else I'd have met any of them...[chuckling]. Are you learning something, Ann?
Ann: Oh yes, absolutely.
BW: So were you, I'm assuming you must have been at Silverstone when the war ended, when the news came through, what was the atmosphere like at that point?
AT: Well, of course, VE Day, I would be, that was first, wasn't it? And then of course we had Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor, didn't we, and that brought it global and America came into it, didn't it? So that was the latest one to go...wasn't it the latest..?
BW: Well, I was thinking about the end of the war and you mentioned VE Day and then there'd be VJ Day in the August, as you were saying.
AT: Yes.
BW: What was the atmosphere like on the base when the news of the war's end came?
AT: Do you know, I don't remember.
BW: I just wondered if you might have had parties or celebrations or anything...
AT: No... no.
BW: Maybe you had extra leave?
AT: No...no...no.
Ann: Do you need your glasses on, Mum, if you're looking at photos? Your reading glasses?
AT: No, that was Matt O'Leary, an Aussie.
BW: So, we were just looking at that photo of the rear gunner but it's inscribed 'All My Love, Ken' but it's not someone who rings a bell with you?
AT: No, ha! I must have been drunk! [laughter]. I don't think so.
Ann: You have had lucid moments, Mum, about him! [laughter]
AT: I do recognise the face but do y'know, that's someone, he escapes me. I know this gentleman here, this is Terry King.
BW: Terry King?
AT: Terry King, yeah. He's the one where he's lent me his jacket when it was cold. I think he was a navigator [laughs].
BW: You wouldn't happen to know which squadron?
AT: It would be 467 or 463.
BW: OK, but he was definitely an Aussie?
AT: Definitely an Aussie.
Ann: And definitely Terry King? It's just remarkable, isn't it, remembering that, Mum. There was Matt O'Leary as well.
AT: Matt, Matt O'Leary. He's there and I think the big photograph...
BW: Which would be this one of seven aircrew in front of a Lancaster.
AT: [Pauses]. Look at the other two, can we?
Ann: Which one could have tempted you to live in Australia, Mum?, Was it Matt O'Leary, you did mention you could have been living in Australia.
AT: Mmm. I thought I had one of Matt with a crew.
BW: Erm.
Ann: I think you were looking at that one, Mum, excuse me, just let me [unclear] him at bottom right, yeah.
BW: So that's the four guys on the bottom right.
AT: That's him there, look and he's an Aussie. It was one weekend and we were dancing in Lincoln and we won a jitterbutty [sic], it wasn't the one where they threw you over the hedge, y'know, it was clever footwork [laughs].
BW: So was it a village dance?
AT: No, it was in the city centre.
BW: OK. And was it, were there a lot of RAF aircrew taking part?
AT: No, it was civilian and a mixture, yeah, yeah. But we cracked it!
BW: And you came top?
AT: We won it, yes, yeah.
BW: So, just as a general question, how easy was it to learn to dance in those days, because it seems everybody did it as a social activity but where did you learn?
AT: I danced with my three bothers from being that high because there was ten years between myself and the eldest and, you know, we used to go to the village dances and I could always go to village dances cos the others would always bring me home safely. So I've danced all my life, really. I love dancing.
BW: And it just happened that you paired up this particular...
AT: Yes, we were friends, y'know and we'd gone into Lincoln to the dance and, that was it.
BW: It was a spur of the moment thing, presumably.
AT: Not a spur of the moment, we'd intended going into Lincoln, which a lot of us did do.
BW: So this photo shows a Lancaster crew, seven guys in front of a Lancaster.
AT: And do you know, I don't know any names on there, I can't...
BW: No, there's none on the back, it just says.
AT: No, these were classified, I got, y'know, the pictures...
BW: But it says 'The crew of S for Sugar'.
AT: S for Sugar, yeah.
BW: So that, presumably, is the crew with 100 missions...
AT: A thousand... with... the missions, the last crew to crew it, presumably. Y'know, to get the hundred trips. There's one of the photographs, it shows quite clearly, doesn't it, that 'no enemy plane will ever...'
BW: Which is this one, there's a crowd in front of the aircraft.
AT: Yeah, yeah, that's, y'know, obviously, other ranks and whoever else was there.
BW: Do you remember that occasion?
AT: No, no, I wasn't among that but that was the... of course...I got the photographs.
BW: This particular one's a Lancaster being, what they called, 'being bombed up' also is S for Sugar.
AT: Yes, yeah.
BW: Did you ever get to see the crews bombing aircraft up?
AT: No, No.
BW; There are a couple of photos here, with friends, which one is you and who are the others?
AT: That's me, in the middle.
BW; OK. And who...?
AT: Do y'know, their name escapes me, I can't remember.
BW: And this one also shows you but this time you are on the right and there are a couple of names on the back. Do you recall those?
AT: I don't really, no, I don't.
BW: No problem.
AT: It was a long time ago and but, you know, we were friends.
BW: Do you know where they were taken? Were they taken during training or it looks like they might have been taken...
AT: Er, it was at Waddington, it was Waddington, it looks like first post thing.
BW: OK, did you keep in touch with your friends after the war at all?
AT: No, no. No, I y'know, got on with life again [laughs].
BW: And we were talking about the Australian crews earlier and obviously Matt was a good friend who you won the competition with, do you know if he survived the war?
AT: I don't know, no.
BW: OK.
AT: Obviously it'd be sometime in that period, y'know, the period, he was there most of the time I was there. But I don't know...Peter, Kimber, when I rang his Mum, she said, y'know, I sort of asked had she'd heard anything and she said, "I've heard this morning, he's been made a prisoner of war." So, obviously he survived and he would get home. That was another, y'know, just friendship.
BW: But you didn't hear anymore from Peter? You didn't hear where he was or what had happened to him?
AT: No. Nothing at all.
BW: How did you feel when you got the news, were you relieved?
AT: I was so pleased that, at least, he was safe cos he could have been blasted into eternity, couldn't he? Yes, I was very pleased and pleased for his Mum.
BW: were the rest of his crew captured?
AT: The concern was Peter, y'know, I was enquiring about him and she told me she was absolutely delighted, yes.
BW: And you were never tempted to move to Australia, having got to know some of these Australians. Did they ever try and tempt you with them?
AT: No, actually, there was one thing: a lot of them they [were] staunch Roman Catholics. Y'know, I thought it was one thing, leaving your country but also, being Church of England and being brought up in that way. But it didn't really, there was no one who meant that much to me, to do that, cos you've got to love and care to take that step, haven't you? And when I met my husband, that was it and I'd just 15 years of super marriage and y'know, short-lived but I didn't work during that period and, we weren't like ships that passed in the night. So, we'd a good life Ann, hadn't we?
Ann: Yes.
AT: And we just had the one daughter.
BW: You said earlier that you'd left the WAAF in August, around August '45.
AT: Yes.
BW: What happened next? You'd worked and had experience in administration, you'd worked at admin in the WAAF, what happened after you left?
AT: I came back...I think I went back to the Co-op, I had a decent position there. Er, do you know, I don't think I did anything then. And then I met Norman and y'know and the next thing was marriage.
BW: When was that, when did you meet?
AT: Er, well, he lived in the same village and I'd been friends with his sister, y'know, she'd been a good friend for many years. But, suddenly that was it. So, you know, obviously, that was after the war and... What year did I get married, Ann, was it '53?
Ann: 53.
AT: 53. And you were born in 56, weren't you? Yeah. But I never worked once I got married, I never worked. And then, of course, my husband died young, at the age of 39. You've spoken about this, have you, Ann?
Ann: Only briefly.
AT?: Yes, yes. It was tragic really, a minor operation and he got an infection in the hospital and the drug they had used damaged a kidney. And I travelled to Leeds with him from Wakefield, left Ann in the care of the nurses at the hospital and he died between Leeds and Wakefield, er Wakefield and Leeds. And I had to wait ten days for a post mortem, because the coroner wasn't happy but at that time the medical profession were very much round each other and it was brought in 'misadventure'. So that was it. So, about six months after that I hadn't the confidence to pick up a telephone. I was devastated, wasn't I, in a mess and you witnessed it, didn't you, unfortunately. When Norman died, Ann had just turned 12 months at grammar school, obviously very clever and y'know, Norman and I had plans and we saw great things in the future and so, in my mind, I just wanted to bring my daughter up, see her through university and I never had to decide [unclear] beyond her age of 18, when she could manage her money. It was a very sad time.
0:12:09
BW: And you just had that short time between, finishing with the WAAF and working in the Co-op where you went back to and then married life.
AT: Yes, yes, and, so when Norman died I had to get my act together and y'know, go out to work. So the first job I took, I got, was with the county council and it's statistics, erm...sorry, and I worked with the county, the fact that I needed to work and keep a roof over our heads, y'know and money, I wasn't averse to any change or anything I was asked to do, so consequently, over the time, I built up a, y'know, a lot of information about various things and then, I got involved with the director, who used to be appointed as a Guardian ad Litem in care related proceedings at the court either relating to children in care y'know, where there was a conflict of interests and er, and er, children who had probably been placed for adoption, and the putative father, y'know, was objecting. So I worked with the director getting reports to the director, it came to me, did all the documentation and I made sure that the social workers got out and saw every respondent that had the right to be seen and heard, regarding those proceedings. So I'd got that experience with the Guardian ad Litem and then, years later, the social service - they amalgamated the children's department and the county and [they] became Social Services and later, in '75, it's a long way ago, in't it? [The 19]75 Act the local authority said that the, all the...the government said that the Local Authorities had to become adoption agencies. So I had all this knowledge about, already, about adoption so I got all the White Papers from HMSO regarding the adoptions and proceedings and what the government expected and I studied it all and I got an interview for the post on the board of directors and I got the job. And one of the directors said, "I wish I knew as much as Audrey about the Children Act," [laughs]. And that's the sort of thing, I was saying, my brothers and I, that's what we've done, we've progressed but it's been our effort, you know. So that was it and I thoroughly enjoyed it cos it was so interesting, y'know we approved prospective adopters and we accepted children for adoption and lots of babies and some of the mums could only tell, all they knew about the father was, they could only tell you the colour. You know, they'd known these were one night stands and things - all very interesting. And of course we arranged placements and y'know, all the time we never had a problem and we got some really good placements. And then after, it came into force at 18 they could have knowledge of the prospective adopters so I did Section 26 counselling, which meant interviewing the mum because we didn't let anyone turn up on anybody's doorstep saying, "You're my Mum."or anything like that. We made sure that they, the natural mother, was happy with the decision that we were making and all that. I worked with professional people, y'know, solicitors, police and everybody, but thoroughly enjoyed it. And got a nice side of it, going to the pediatricians with babies [chuckles] and I did that till I retired and I could have stayed longer but my grandson was, [to Ann] you were pregnant, and I thought, " Oh, Norman's missed so much and I'm not going to miss these babies so I retired at 64. I had the ability to carry on but I didn't.
BW: And, just to, I suppose, come back to the RAF and Bomber Command, you've been to the IBCC at Lincoln, how do you feel, seeing that?
Ann: That was me.
BW: Oh, I beg your pardon.
AT: What was that?
Ann: You know I went down to the International Bomber Command Centre?
AT: Yes, you went, didn't you, yes. I've not been but I'd love to but I don't think I could make it down there.
Ann: No, they've offered to entertain [you] but no.
AT: Yeah but I've read the book. [to Ann] You got the book, didn't you. And I refresh my memory with it. Yes, yeah, it's very, very impressive, very impressive and it's amazing what they've done with the grounds. I was looking for the Waafery, [laughs] but I guess they've demolished it but it was a beautiful building. There was another nice thing in the village, I don't know the name of it, it was a nice pub, where we went, but there was a man in but it was only like a shed but he used to make jam and lemon curd tarts and we used to go and buy [laughs] them from this man in the village. Lovely time really.
BW: So, knowing about the memorial, how do you feel about there being a memorial to the crews of Bomber Command?
AT: I think it's wonderful, I don't think they should ever be forgotten. No. I think it's wonderful, I love the way they've got the walls with all the names, and the gardens, I think it's beautiful. And I think they deserve remembering, y'know, they've given their lives, and young lives.
BW: Cos, the guys were largely only around the same age as you were at the time, weren't they? The chaps in the RAF, the aircrew, they were only around your age.
AT: They were, yes, yes, very young, yes. That was the sad thing, it was so much in life going, y'know.
BW: Whereas you say, I think you summed it up well, you wouldn't have wanted to have missed the experience...
AT: Oh no, no, not for a moment. And I've often thought about it, haven't I?
Ann: Yeah.
AT: Yeah, I did not [unclear] it's an opportunity I wouldn't have missed. It was really good.
Ann: I think it's affected Mum's outlook on so many things because I think, for my Mum's age group and generation, you've got a very rounded, cosmopolitan attitude towards people of all nationalities and I think that's quite impressive.
AT: Hmm.
BW: And through all the things we've talked about this afternoon, are there any other aspects or recollections that you want to add from your time in the WAAF?
AT: No, I don't think so, I think I've covered it. You know I enjoyed the life, enjoyed the company of the people and the various things. Do you know, I'm 99 [unclear] but not very long ago I was, he was speaking to me on the phone and he said, "Mum, do you ever regret any of the decisions you've made in your life?" and I said "No, and I'd make them all again, all the same." Because, since my husband died I had this tunnel vision and it was family and I wanted to see Ann where, y'know [unclear] but then, you see, grandchildren came and then that was another life line and I've just, I had so much happiness with Ann and the children so I've not really wanted anything else. And strangely enough, when I came to this home and it was my decision but we chatted it over, didn't we, because Ann gave me 24/7 care when I came out of hospital, which was a near death experience and she gave that care and I could see what was happening and I, I mean, I had a good life, born into the right family, met the man I loved, enjoyed 15 good years and y'know, I wanted Ann to enjoy her children so I made the decision to come in here. But when, about the same time I met a man, he was upright and mobile but he'd had an accident, his wife had died and he'd scalded himself and he'd come in for respite care, initially and he was a professor of politics but he was such an interesting man I had a friendship with him while he was here, which was about five or six months, wasn't it Ann?
Ann: Yep.
AT: And it was a nice, good friendly relationship but he died just before Christmas but that was nice, y'see. But that's life, isn't it?
BW: Well, I've no other questions and you've answered everything very thoroughly and clearly so, thank you very much for your time.
AT: Yeah, thank you! Cos you been very tolerant and we haven't interrupted you very much, have we?
BW: Not at all.
[Audrey laughs]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Audrey Teasdale
Creator
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Brian Wright
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-12-20
Language
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eng
Format
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01:12:25 Audio Recording
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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ATeasdaleA221220, PTeasdaleA22020002, PTeasdaleA22020003, PTeasdaleA22020004, PTeasdaleA22020005
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-12-15
1945-08
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Yorkshire
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Type
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Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Audrey left school at 14 and began work as a clerical assistant for a tailoring firm in Leeds, then moving into furniture sales.
Audrey was 23 when the war started and was conscripted on 15 December 1942 electing to join the Women's Auxiliary Air Force. After her kitting out at RAF Innesworth she did some basic training at RAF Morecambe, then posted to RAF Lindholme and eventually to RAF Waddington where she worked as an administrator in the officer's mess. At that time there were four squadrons on the station: 9, 44, 463 and 467 Squadrons.
Audrey's duties in the officer's mess included checking the crews against the battle orders to ensure only crews flying that night got the special pre-flight meal and waiting on tables for VIP dinners, including Wing Commander Nettleton VC. She describes her friendships with the other staff and especially with bomber crews, mostly nice and respectful. Audrey and others would gather on the perimeter track to see them off. She and many others were billeted in a beautiful old building, known as "The Waafery”. Audrey describes her busy social life, dancing at many venues and winning jitterbug competitions. Remembers being called ‘belle gambe’ [beautiful legs] by Italian prisoners of war.
Audrey also describes the events of one night when an enemy fighter followed the aircraft home and strafed the airfield, hitting the incendiary dump, which exploded.
After the war, Audrey eventually worked for the local authority’s adoption service after the tragic death of her husband at a young age.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Andy Fitter
44 Squadron
463 Squadron
467 Squadron
9 Squadron
animal
bombing
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
entertainment
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
Lancaster
mess
military living conditions
military service conditions
prisoner of war
RAF Lindholme
RAF Morecambe
RAF Silverstone
RAF Waddington
sport
Stirling
strafing
training
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/838/10830/AGoslingC180907.2.mp3
639de03fe257ad2fae5048ea550420f1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gosling, Cyril
C Gosling
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Corporal Cyril Gosling (1923 - 2019, 1512679 Royal Air Force). He served as an armourer with 49 and 617 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Gosling, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: So, this is Susanne Pescott. I’m interviewing Corporal Cyril Gosling today at his home in Oldham. I’m interviewing today for International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive and we’re at Cyril’s home. It’s the 7th of September 2018. Also present at the interview is Cyril’s daughter Gillian. So, first of all Cyril thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today.
CG: You’re welcome.
SP: So, do you want to tell me a little bit about life before the RAF? When were you born Cyril?
CG: The address?
SP: So, what date were you born?
CG: 1923.
SP: 1923.
CG: First of the seventh 1923.
SP: Brilliant. And where did you live then?
CG: Golden street. 47 Golden Street, Oldham.
SP: Oldham. Yeah. Yeah. And what was life like in the early years for you?
CG: A bit, a bit rough. I wanted to go into engineering but mother said, ‘Ooh it’s too it’s not for you that. I’m going to get you in a shop.’ A grocer’s shop who lived next door to me. Literally, you know. So, I finished up early on in this shop. The grocer’s shop. And that were alright, you know running around with a bicycle like I was doing. And then what happened to it? Now [pause] I finished up getting fed up with it. Complaining to mother. And this lady came into the shop. I were cleaning the, you know, all the equipment in the shop and this lady dashed in and said, ‘Can you give me a half a pound of bacon, I’m in a hurry.’ I said, ‘I’ve just stripped it down. The machine.’ And I said, ‘Well, because it’s you I’ll do it.’ But so, without a to do, without putting the machine together again I ploughed on. [stress] ‘Oh. I’m sorry I’ve just cut my finger [laughs]
SP: So, you cut your off finger on the machine.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: On the bacon machine.
GC: You were only fourteen, weren’t you?
CG: So, I finished up at hospital. We didn’t have a car in those days. I went on the bus to the Oldham hospital and I were getting off half way there and mum said, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘Well, to the pictures. I always go to the pictures Tuesday afternoon. Because the shop’s closed.’
GC: On the way back.
CG: On the way back.
GC: From the hospital.
CG: Anyway, I sat through my normal journey, you know. When I come back she played heck with me and I got back home. I got through, sat through these films which I liked and she said, ‘You’d better go and see Mr Livingstone.’ That was the manager of the Oldham shop. ‘Why?’ ‘He’s in bed poorly.’ ‘Why, what am I supposed to do?’ And she played hell with me then. She said, ‘You go gadding out, go to the pictures and there’s poor Mr Livingstone in bed poorly.’
GC: With shock [laughs]
SP: Yeah. And that Mr Livingstone was the, ran the grocers’, the manager of the grocers.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Yeah.
CG: And that’s it. So, I had to go around one or two people who heard about it got a shock, friends like. So anyway, I said, ‘I’ve had enough of this.’ War was just starting.
SP: Ok. Yeah.
CG: I said I want to join up.
GC: At the Local Defence Volunteers. Talk about the Local Defence Volunteers. Dad’s Army.
CG: Oh, that were it. Sorry. Yeah. I jumped in. Dad’s, you know, Dad’s Army. So, without any further ado I went to the local part of it asking for volunteers and I signed up there and then. And I said I worked for a store in Oldham. I volunteered. Anyway, I signed up and it was just like, like it is on television then [laughs] yeah.
SP: What sort of things did you do in the Defence League?
CG: It were just like it said on television.
GC: Dad tell them about when you thought a paratrooper had dropped down when you were on guard duty.
CG: Oh that.
SP: So, they thought, yeah, so in Oldham they thought there was a paratrooper arrived, did they?
CG: Yeah. And we were, we were based at [unclear] Barracks which is in Oldham.
GC: [Up the big hill?]
CG: Yeah. A group of [unclear] on there. And there were one bloke which always amuses me when it comes on. He would start by, like it was on, and he used to anything like this. He would say, ‘Don’t flap. Don’t flap,’ you know. And he was. Anyway, when I come through, he calls me, official, you know. So we’re up at the top there. And this bloke was always shouting, ‘Don’t panic. We’ll sort it out.’ Anyway, we went off. Four of us there. Four of us looking for this parachutist. And he called to me and —
GC: Denshaw.
CG: Denshaw over that way. Anyway, it seems daft now but we had search parties out. All looking for him. We never found him.
SP: They never knew what it was then?
CG: Not really.
SP: No. So, after the Defence League in Oldham you then decided to join up did you say?
CG: Yeah. Joined up.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, what, what made you decide on the RAF?
CG: It’s funny. I don’t know.
GC: They said that he’d got flat feet. The army.
CG: I, I don’t know. Passed me.
GC: Didn’t they tell you you had flat feet?
CG: Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Flat feet. So, they suggested the RAF.
CG: I fancied it.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But they turned me at down first.
SP: Right.
CG: Because I had flat feet.
SP: Right.
CG: Anyway, after struggling they accepted me. So, we went to Padgate which is, do you know it? [Crowmarsh?] Blackpool of course. Roughed it.
SP: So, what was life like in black, what was it like in Blackpool during your training?
CG: Well, all I can say, there were hundreds of young ladies chasing our uniform [laughs]. So, and then from there we went to Filey. You know it?
SP: Yes. Over to the east coast.
CG: Yes.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
GC: His fitter’s course.
CG: Did our square bashing and what have you.
GC: Kirkham. You went to Kirkham to do your fitter’s course.
CG: Oh yeah. Sorry.
GC: Tell her about when you had to take your turn of doing guard duty. When you were patrolling around in that blizzard and you were all wrapped up.
CG: This is one of many things. This camp is, you know, for fitters. Teaching fitters. Anyway, it was winter and I were on guard duty in the camp. It was snowing and I marched up and down because it was, I were cold. Suddenly Filey disappeared. I didn’t realise. There was so much straw and I sunk into a big hole in the ground.
SP: Right.
CG: Fortunately, the corporal who was bringing a chap to replace me and I had all the equipment on me. Rifle, everything, you know. So, I was shouting out and he was shouting, ‘Where are you?’ I said, ‘In the water.’ And they dragged me out and it was so freezing out there. The corporal, he had a phone. I don’t know where that come from but he got, got me out, you know and leads to the M O station and they said, ‘You’re lucky. If he hadn’t have caught you you’d have been passed away.’ You know, it was in the hole because it was freezing. Anyway —
GC: You got two weeks survivor’s leave didn’t you?
CG: Yeah. I don’t know why I’m here. If they can do that to me [pause] anyway [laughs]
SP: So, what, what sort of things did you learn on the fitter’s course? What was the training?
CG: It was guns. You know, things like that. We went to the fitter’s camp to —
GC: That was your next bit. Eventually you moved to Scampton.
CG: Yeah.
GC: Where you were a fitter/gun armourer.
CG: Yeah. I were a gun armourer. Needed fitting a bit. Everything, you know.
GC: You had to make sure that the turrets on the planes were working and that the ammunition was laid out correctly.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, what would it be like? So, did the, on an operation and the planes would land. Or pre-operation what would your role be? What would you do before the planes went out and when the planes came back?
CG: I had to load the guns. You know, with the ammunition. The turrets. Making sure they were working alright. Then we’d go out on trial runs over the sea. Over that way, you know. That way. And, well all of the, all the engines were [pause] oh it brought down one of the engines. Nothing to do with me actually but, and he, the pilot said, ‘Right. We’re in trouble here. One engine’s packed in. We’ve got to get back to shore.’ Well actually we were practicing these, with these engines and firing them to the —
SP: To the drogue was it?
CG: Yeah.
SP: When you went out practicing firing on the planes.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, did you actually go on the flights with them for that?
CG: Oh yes. Yeah.
SP: Right.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Was that to check that all the machinery was working?
CG: That’s right. We fired at a drogue. What they called a —
SP: A drogue. Yeah.
CG: [unclear]
SP: Yeah. So, the drogue was for you to, the guns to aim at, wasn’t it?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Anyway, it [pause] he said we’ll have to jettison. He said we’ll have to get out of the plane. And what was it now. Like abandon ship kind of thing, you know. Anyway, we had the door open. Open the door, Jumped out. Anyway, when we looked across, we could see the shoreline like. They could see there were a trawler from one of the boats from [pause] what do they call the place?
SP: It’s alright. From one of the ports. One of the boats did you say could see you?
CG: Could see. Yeah. Could see it coming out fast because two of the blokes had dropped out.
SP: So, they’d baled out.
CG: Baled out. Yeah. And I didn’t go. I didn’t go. Two went and they got picked up. You could see them in the water. Anyway, he carried on then because he could see his men were alright, you know. We didn’t go back to, we went back to Waddington. That’s wasn’t ours. Scampton was our place.
GC: You didn’t jump because the pilot said it was ok, didn’t he?
CG: Yeah.
GC: He said everything was ok. Picked up.
CG: Yeah.
GC: So, you didn’t jump.
CG: Yeah.
GC: Saved you having a, saved you having a soaking in the sea.
CG: Anyway, it did, it did, it did crash land but it was only at Waddington. It’s not far away. Well it’s a big place.
SP: What was the landing like then because obviously you were coming in with a damaged, was it a damaged engine did you say? Yeah. So, what was that like for you to come in on a damaged engine?
CG: Well I were in the rear turret and I didn’t know any better and the pilot said, ‘They’ve shook me up so much,’ He crash landed actually because he come down and he finished up in doc for that. He was a nice lad. Because I dressed out in blue, hospital blue. Slouching around, you know [unclear]
SP: So, was anyone injured on the, was anyone actually injured on the landing or was everybody ok?
CG: They bumped me.
SP: Shook up. Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Ok.
CG: So it were, where did I go from there? Oh, I went in doc. In doc.
SP: So, you’d have to get back to Scampton.
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah. Was the plane repaired then at Waddington? Or —
CG: It were, yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But I didn’t go in that. I got in the ambulance, you know, to the hospital
SP: Yeah.
CG: Take over. Sat back and enjoyed myself [laughs] Where did I go from there?
SP: So just about your time still at Scampton. So, you’d check the guns. You’d, you’d go on the flights to check that everything was working.
CG: Oh yeah, I was —
SP: Yeah. What would you do when you were on the ground during the day? What would be a typical fitter’s —
CG: Yeah.
SP: You know.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Armourer’s day? What would that be like for you?
CG: Firstly, the turrets. You know, the turrets. Automatic you know. We had to make sure they were all geared up. Working right. Fitted all the turrets with hundreds and hundreds of bullets and stuff like that. We had, we went back to Kirkham more knowledgeable you know, [laughs] Which was going to Blackpool because Kirkham — Blackpool. Kirkham. Any excuse.
SP: So, going for more training. Was that because things changed like different types of plane had different turrets, different guns?
CG: Oh yeah. Yeah.
SP: So, would that be going to be upskilled on different types of guns or did you have to just to keep your knowledge every year or something?
CG: Well, I kept going back to Kirkham to pick up. They’d teach you there. We just, not enough. They were sat up there.
SP: Right.
CG: On this, you know firing of these ground level, you know. We did that several times so I got [unclear]
SP: So, did you work with a particular crew or did you work on all the planes? Or were you linked more to one plane and one crew. Or —
CG: For the two. I were attached to two flights because I went to Scampton then and that’s where I were fully qualified.
SP: Right.
CG: You know, I were fully but —
GC: You had Hampdens. And then you moved on to Manchesters before you got the Lancasters. When you were with 49 Squadron, before you went to 617.
CG: I think I’ll put my hat and coat on.
SP: And go [laughs] So what were the, you know obviously some very early planes there with Hampdens and that. And Wellingtons. What did you think of those planes compared to your Lancasters?
CG: Rubbish. I must admit we landed several times. Crashed.
SP: On which plane? Was it the Manchester did you say?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Horrible.
SP: Yeah. A lot of people said it was quite a very difficult plane.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, you had a few crashes in that. On landing.
CG: Oh God. It were more or less a clapped-out rubbish aircraft.
SP: Yeah.
CG: You more or less landed them, you know?
SP: Yeah .
GC: Dad, you said often that you would see planes limping home in flames. And you’d see them coming in where the bank of trees was. And they were, they were very, it were very, your heart were in your mouth waiting for them.
CG: Oh yeah.
GC: Wasn’t it? You know. Whether they would make the runway.
CG: Yeah. This is now wartime. You know. Proper war time.
GC: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I mean they come over, you know. Landing.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But, you know, they were your friends, you know.
GC: And the hydraulics failed didn’t they? And they belly flopped, and if you were in that rear gun turret you didn’t stand much a chance did you? In the back.
SP: So, can you talk me through one, maybe an operation that you’d watched go out and you were waiting to come back where there were some problems. What was that like? Waiting around for the planes to come back?
CG: Horrible. Yeah. You know. Especially if you see one coming and it had been shot at and it were all in flames going over the top of these trees. I don’t know why there were all these trees in the way. I saw all that, you know. But anyway, it was rough.
SP: So, did you see any that actually didn’t make it?
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. Yeah.
SP: What was it like then on the base when —?
CG: It was horrible because the turrets were electric you know and if they’d shot up. The plane. The electrics didn’t shut off, you know. So, the person who was in that turret he can’t move it.
SP: Right.
CG: So, he’s stuck in there until one of his mates come from the mid-upper turret and winds it by hand. You know, the electrics are gone.
SP: Right.
CG: But —
SP: So was that the case for some of them where they couldn’t get to the rear gunner because of the electrics going.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Right.
CG: But, yeah [pause] happened anyway. We’re still, it was still like, how shall I put it [pause] it’s was all going ahead now with a proper war you know.
SP: Yeah.
CG: So, there was so many accidents, you know. I mean, I lost one or two friends you know. But they had been loading the bombs up. And they’d sit on them while they went out to dispersal [unclear] and there would be many accidents where it’s gone up. You know.
SP: So, the armourers would sit on the bombs as they went out to the planes. And what would cause the, the bombs to go off?
CG: I don’t —
SP: Just —
CG: I don’t [unclear] it. I think they were bouncing too much, you know. But they sat on them and went up with them.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I never did that.
SP: No.
CG: I went to dispersal on a bike.
SP: Yeah. And did you have a set dispersal point that you’d go to?. Were you allocated to a set dispersal point where you’d always go to and look after the plane that landed there?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. And was that far away from where you were based?
CG: It wasn’t far and we used to, well we were given bicycles. Used to [pause]
SP: Yeah.
CG: But there was lots of things. Had to keep up with 58 Squadron. they were never, I’d never heard of that one before but it came from somewhere outlandish. I don’t know where it was but they parked them way out.
SP: Right.
CG: There must have been a reason for it because, well I know there’d be a reason for it. You know. What shall we say [unclear] we had flares you know.
SP: Fido? Was it the runway did you say, with flares?
CG: No. These flares. This was something to do with 58. Something. I think it was that. It’s gone now.
GC: 58 Squadron.
CG: Yeah. I’m not sure.
SP: Ok.
CG: But they were right out at dispersal but, and obviously they loaded it with the flares. And the bloke, it was dipping, and I remember that [pause] helping out because officially I was nothing to do with that squadron. I don’t know where they come from, but he pulls, he loaded this big flare. He set out and he got all the, blew that one up. It blew nearly every one of them up with people.
SP: Really, right.
CG: Yeah.
GC: Good job it were a bit far out. That’s bad isn’t it. So about three planes went up didn’t they?
CG: Yeah.
GC: Because the flare went off.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Right.
GC: And that were when they were on the ground.
CG: That’s right.
SP: And which airfield was that at. That was, was that when you were at Scampton or at one of the other —?
SP: Yeah
SP: At Scampton. Ok.
CG: Yeah. Nothing really, nothing doing.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I don’t know why a full squadron was on. On that Scampton crew. But they played it down of course.
SP: Well, you were at an airfield where obviously 617 Squadron were so —
CG: Yeah.
SP: You had quite a lot of inventive things going on there didn’t you, on that?
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, did you meet or see anyone at that time from 617 Squadron?
GC: He was in it.
SP: But any of the crew? Did you work on their planes then for 617 Squadron, on their practicing or —
CG: Oh honest, we were right. What it was they wanted to create a squadron and we had planes that they had and all, but mine was 49 Squadron. Apparently, they was told to create, to go around picking the best people up and create a squadron which was 617 Squadron. You know what it was, you know and they pinched two of my planes from 49 Squadron.
SP: Right.
CG: So, and then we moved over.
SP: So, you went with them because they wanted the best fitters as well.
CG: Yeah. Oh yeah. Put it that way, yeah. In fact —
SP: So, the planes that you moved over with from 49, were any of those involved on the Dambusters run itself or were they —?
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. He was told to create —
SP: Yeah.
CG: A full squadron. Create a unit. 617 Squadron. So, they did all right. He had this dog [unclear] I’m losing it.
SP: No, you’re alright.
CG: Like a —
SP: Is this Guy Gibson’s dog?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Guy Gibson’s dog, N*****?
CG: Yeah. Oh N*****. Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: He got, he got killed didn’t he? I don’t know whether you read it but, our pilot —
GC: You used to take it for a walk.
CG: I’d take it for a walk.
SP: So was this part of your duties. To walk the dog.
CG: Yes.
GC: When he was, when Guy Gibson was out on duty he looked after his dog sometimes and took it for walks.
CG: And then some silly so and so [unclear] but another, a corporal had the job of looking after that dog.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And he let it loose and he got run over it, didn’t he? [unclear] but it got run over by a taxi outside the camp which [unclear] upset Guy Gibson.
GC: Well it would wouldn’t it?
SP: So, did you meet Guy Gibson then?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that? Meeting Guy Gibson. What was he like? What —
CG: He was alright. A bit, you know, stultified. Yeah. He were alright to talk to. Yeah.
SP: You saw Barnes Wallis knocking about, didn’t you?
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, Barnes Wallis as well. So, so he went up to Scampton. To the base while you were there.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, what, what would a day be like working with the 617 Squadron, or the Dambusters? Because they were testing different things wouldn’t they? So, was your job slightly different when you were working with them to when you were working with 49 Squadron?
CG: Well, they had more flying tests because obviously part of it over water, skimmed over the water. We had to do that.
GC: You went over Derwentwater didn’t you? Where they did the test. You were low flying over there in the, in the tail of a Lancaster.
SP: So, you went up on your normal testing of the guns when they were doing the low-level flying.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Do you want to tell me about one of those trips?
CG: There’s a big photograph of it in my bedroom.
GC: It’s in there.
SP: Well take a photo and put it with the recording but what was it like flying at that low level compared to when you’d gone up previously on the —
CG: Yeah. It’s funny when you went up for a test flight. By being right at the front of it you look as though you were flying, you were flying the plane, you know. Just like that. This was very low flying. And the pilot were in front of you, and he’d be only that far from it, and I’m saying to the pilot ‘Pick it up, pick it up. You’re too low,’ and he was, he was about that far from the ground. He gave that impression because he was just so low.
SP: Yeah.
CG: You felt like you were flying that plane you know.
SP: You were so close to the water.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: So —
SP: So do you know who the pilot was who you went with that day?
CG: No.
SP: No.
CG: I’m sorry. I’ve got it down somewhere.
SP: That’s alright. It would be one of the Dambusters guys doing their practice.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And then we, we had some mishaps, you know.
SP: Ok. Do you want to tell me about any of those? What happened? The mishaps.
GC: Didn’t you say the Lancasters always had, you always thought they had a weak undercarriage and they tended to fold on landing.
CG: Oh yeah.
GC: Yeah. And that made you crash a couple of times didn’t it?
CG: Yeah.
GC: And when you were in the rear turret it meant you were thrown about a lot and you were black and blue.
CG: I finished up in hospital.
GC: You ended up at Blackpool again, didn’t you?
CG: In hospital. Yeah.
GC: In your hospital blue. Bruised. Blues. Said it was with the bruising and got the girl’s attention. He’s a right flirt.
CG: Apparently I finished with [unclear] with everything.
SP: So obviously there was problems with the undercarriage. What other mishaps were there with the other things?
CG: Sorry?
SP: You said there were a few other mishaps. Obviously, the undercarriage issues. Anything else?
CG: Yeah.
GC: Tell you some other bit of mishaps what about when the bombing was worse and you worked for three and a half days without sleep and you had to go and get some more bombs because you ran out.
CG: Oh yeah. At Scampton. We were there.
GC: Waddington.
CG: Waddington. We ran out of bombs so we got a big transport and went from Scampton down to the centre of Lincoln. Down by the cathedral. Pinched the bombs and come back through Lincoln.
SP: With all the bombs [laughs] through the centre of Lincoln.
CG: They acquired these. They were on the, they were loaded on these trailers and we were going back up the hill towards the cathedral. The last bomb, they weren’t bombed up by the way but it could have gone off.
GC: They were unarmed. Yeah.
CG: But it was these so-called mates of mine they were sat on these trailers again. On the wagons, you know. And it was going up the hill and this chap, he kicked the wedge from underneath this bomb and it started rolling from half way up the hill down to the bottom. ‘It’s a bomb. Get off the road,’ It rolled down the road. I can laugh now but —
SP: Some steep hills in Lincoln for that bomb to roll down weren’t there?
CG: It was. You’d have got, first you’d got it was, the bomb more or less rolled, only one road. Wedged it up. What do you call it [unclear] the wedges got thrown off so —
GC: What about the night when there was an attack on the base from German fighters and you digged up that tripod with the Lewis gun?
CG: Well, I mean, the, trying to pick my brains there. I created a Lewis gun which is —
GC: Strapped to the tripod.
CG: Yeah.
GC: To try and get the German.
[pause]
SP: So, you were telling me about the tripod that you made.
CG: It was just, yeah, we put, instead of firing one Lewis gun I put two together. Fired them both together, you know. But and I could, build it around and I got a tripod too. And I got the shock of my life. I was in this, you know. Flight, yeah. I didn’t think that it were about from here to in there.
SP: So about six feet away, yeah.
CG: With this German plane going past I could have shook hands with the bloke. It seemed my impression. And no matter what, everybody said it were me what shot him down.
SP: So, you shot at the plane. Was this a plane coming in strafing the —
CG: Yeah. It were German.
SP: A German one. Just on his own? One or was there more night fighters.
CG: Just one.
SP: One. Right.
CG: Yeah. So afterwards we heard that he’d been shot down. We all claimed it [laughs] And so we all hopped onto transport of all kinds. Went out. [unclear] where I pinched this gun, German gun. Naughty. He shouldn’t do that.
SP: So, you took the gun off the pilot? Yeah. What type of gun was it?
CG: [unclear]
SP: It’s alright. Yeah.
GC: You said before was it a luger. A Luger gun [unclear]
CG: Yeah. It was a Luger.
SP: Yeah.
CG: It was a Luger. I was thinking it was a bigger one but it wasn’t.
SP: So, you took that gun off him and when did you have to give it back. Straight away or —
CG: The civilian — not civilian but our —
SP: Military police.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: They took it off for an enquiry.
SP: So, you lost that.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, did you get up to any other incidents with your firing or shooting?
GC: Oh, in promotion you were put in charge of the firing range at Scampton weren’t you? Tell them about —
SP: Sorry?
GC: When you got a bit of a promotion you were put in charge of the firing range at Scampton. And you know they had that stockpile of old grenades. Well, tell them what you did with them grenades.
CG: Oh yeah. I mean
GC: Springs had gone weren’t it?
CG: Scampton is an old, you know, well known and —
GC: They were rusty, them grenades. You’re going to knock it off.
SP: So, this pile of grenades Cyril. These were old that were rusty, yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. What did you have to do with them?
CG: Well, they wanted to get rid of them. The idea was to get rid of them anyway. But they were really going off and it’s, the CO said he thought I had to, that there was three grenades and of course I was involved with armaments stuff that were fitted and clearing it. And it were, there were built a pit and I’m stood behind this bloke who happened to be a cook. He come pfft.
SP: So, he pulled the pin out.
CG: He pulled the pin out and threw it at me. Just a silly so and so, you know. Where did it land? Right at my feet. So quick as a flash I dived at it. Knocked him flat on his face. I mean. And it were up in the air and it went off.
SP: So, you kicked the grenade away and it went off.
CG: It was just like that. They put me through for an award but I never. I don’t know what happened [unclear]
[recording paused]
SP: So, Cyril you were saying as well that on one occasion you were issued with a 20mm aircraft cannon. So, do you want to tell me a little bit about that?
CG: Well, I don’t know where they got it from. It were my idea but I mean obviously we had smaller cannon. Like smaller than they have on ships you know. You know they were quite, you know and the thing is the spring on that that type of cannon you see them on the, on the ship. They’re like that.
SP: So, it made you judder. It was really powerful. Yeah. You’re showing me how you were really juddering it. Yeah.
CG: Yeah. So, I told them my bloke’s in charge of them. I said this one is going to vibrate so it’s a long barrel and it’s going to. You’re going to tie a rope around and you go down your side and you were there to hold it down. To, and then keep it down otherwise they’d be all up in the air. It sounds like brrrrr going on the left hand side, let go and it went up in the air straight over. See, there was a bank you were firing in to. But obviously by letting it go that it went up into the air. Anyway, the farmer he was following me, was er, round wondering what was happening, you know. And he was rather uncouth. He was swearing.
SP: So why did the farmer come around?
CG: He saw me, I, me who shot the cow.
SP: So, when the gun went up and it shot over the bank it had killed a cow. So were you in trouble for that or —
CG: I was. Yeah. But we pacified the farmer by volunteer begrudgingly and he obviously did this, and he come and this talk of where it was, he cooked. Cooked. And I said, ‘I can’t eat that. I’ve just shot him,’ and I wouldn’t but some did.
SP: Yeah. So, they actually ate it on base.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Bring it round. So, you did everyone a favour that day didn’t you? They were getting some nice beef on that day. Yeah.
CG: A favour. There were some remarks about it.
SP: So, what was food like on base generally?
CG: Oh, it were alright because we were well established, you know. We were well doted on. Yeah. It were quite good.
SP: So, would you eat in the mess every day?
CG: No.
SP: No.
CG: No, it were mainly officers.
SP: Right. So, where did you eat during the day then? Was it just —
CG: Just [pause] we had our own place.
SP: Right.
CG: You know.
SP: So was it a hut designed for fitters.
CG: Yeah.
SP: And armourers etcetera. Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So that’s where you’d see your friends and that.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, what did you do on the days when you weren’t working? Did you get days off? What would you do on a day off?
CG: I, one of the chaps he got, he was being moved out of the camp and he had a motorbike. A rather expensive one and he was moving out the same day. Posted somewhere else and he had to get rid of this motorbike. I’d never had one in my life and he had about two hours to sell this. Anyway, it were a nice bike and I bought it for five pound. And I’d never driven a bike in my life, especially one like that. Anyway, I get on. This bloke showed me how to do it. [unclear] The bike were a livewire. You could call it. To go in to the café not café. You know where you eat.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And how am I going to get it to stop? ‘Cause it wasn’t that wide the path. Anyway, without any further ado I thought somebody open the door for me. And they did. I went straight in to the door on this side. Wrapped it up. So, I flogged it to somebody else.
SP: That was the end of your biking days.
CG: Two hours. Two hours I had to, I bought it, sort of thing. I’ve never had one since.
SP: No.
CG: No way.
SP: So, it wasn’t your transport into Lincoln was it, then?
CG: Yeah.
GC: Pushbike instead.
SP: So, yeah, you went on pushbike into Lincoln from then on, did you? You went on pushbike into Lincoln after those days.
CG: After that.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: And where did you go in Lincoln? Was there anywhere in particular all the ground crew would go?
CG: Yes. I’d say the ground but officers went there.
SP: Yeah.
GC: Dragging his brains now, trying to remember.
SP: Yeah.
GC: You’ve told me this many times and I’ve forgotten myself dad.
CG: Have you?
GC: That pub in Lincoln. What’s it called? I bet you don’t know.
SP: So, you’d mainly go in to a pub where everybody tended to meet in Lincoln.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, what was life like in that pub? What’s a typical night like that? Mad?
CG: There might be fifty people.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. All of them mainly on bikes.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Oh, come on Gillian.
GC: Go on prompting. Put him out of his misery. He don’t know.
[recording paused]
SP: Ok. So, you remember the name of your pub? What was it?
CG: Yeah. This mate of mine. He opened a pub.
SP: And that was the Adam and Eve.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And he used to bribe some of his mates to stand in for him so he could run his own pub, you know. Without any trouble. And all the officers knew, you know. He said they’re on duty that night but he wanted to be at this pub. So, he would slip, he would slip to, oh dear. So, he’d get as many as, roughly fifty, more sometimes.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I think he made a lot of money. He used to bribe ‘em.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But it were a laugh when we were all in because the roads, they all were on pushbikes on the road that way. All on country roads and it was a laugh were getting your mates on to, on their bike and push them off into it.
SP: So, this was after all the drinking. You’d have to weave your way back on bikes. Yeah.
CG: We had to.
SP: And how far was it? About.
CG: What? Back to camp?
SP: Yeah. About. How far back to camp?
CG: Oh, about seven. Seven, seven miles.
SP: Seven miles is quite a distance to wobble on a bike. Yeah. So, Cyril you were based at Scampton for quite some time with the armoury.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Obviously a key part of checking all those planes ready for the Dambusters raid. And obviously you were there at the time of the Dambusters raid and after and obviously saw Guy Gibson, Barnes Wallis and had actually taken the famous dog for a walk as well. So obviously some really important role, or a really important role by yourself during then. So, once you’d finished at Scampton you then ended up going to Canada. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that?
CG: Well, I was, I knew, it was explained to me that they wanted to destroy — what did they call it? Lease lend. British American stuff. They didn’t want it. They’d lent it to us. We didn’t want it. They didn’t want it. So, they decided all of it but we had the job of destroying it all. It was hundreds of thousands of dollars of [ brute? ] blown up. Everything. All new stuff. They just didn’t want it. We didn’t want it. We had fifteen blokes working. Destroying it, you know. New stuff. Flying jackets. Everything. It were a full time up. It dwindled off finally. You know. Then we started enjoying ourself.
SP: So, where was this? Where were you based? This was in Canada was it? You had to go over to Canada to destroy.
CG: Oh no. In the camp.
SP: In England.
CG: No.
SP: Sorry.
CG: Sorry. It were over there.
SP: Right. So over, yeah.
CG: They took us over there.
SP: So, you went over there to do the destroying and that. Yeah.
CG: Yeah. A base on a Canadian camp. But they had nothing to do with me. I were in sole charge of all, of all the information to me and I decided. The only thing is I were a fitter armourer not a bomb armourer. Things like, I had to fathom it out. Sort it out. How to destroy. Let it burn, burn, burn in big furnaces.
SP: How long were you in Canada for?
CG: I were there ten months.
SP: Ten. Ten months, right.
CG: In that time, I nearly went back because when I got out there it worries you. High up people you know. And as soon as they finished they packed in and went and they left me to look after everything, you know [laughs] Ridiculous.
SP: So, this was at the end of the war obviously.
CG: Yes.
SP: So how did, did you get de-mobbed then or —
CG: No.
[recording paused]
SP: So, Cyril we were just going to talk about your demob but before then we’ll talk a little bit about your time in Canada. So, on your days off I believe you went down to New York?
CG: I went New York, Chicago, Montreal, Nova Scotia. All over. And in New York we found out if you go to this place in New York this person was a multi-millionaire and he, we had it, just two of us being fed. You’ve never seen anything like it. You only see them on telly. All the stairs was divided up and all the gold. This chap a multimillionaire. And it was all genuine and we got it all free for a whole week. And we waited. Waited and everything. There was girls there. This older lady used to come in and she brought these young girls in. ‘Do you want to go anywhere in New York? Just tell me and I’ll get tickets for you.’ We got it, that flat. I’ve never seen in my life a staircase going like that. Just like that.
SP: And that’s just because you were in RAF uniform?
CG: Yeah. Precisely.
SP: Yeah.
CG: [unclear] I mean it was laughable. I’ve got to tell you the bit. These mates that got brought over here I used to say to them, they actually took over a cinema in the camp and this captain used to —
GC: It’s fine.
SP: So —
CG: Yes. She used to come up in a beautiful soft topped thing and I said to these mates of mine, and one said, ‘What’s on tonight?’ I said, ‘What’s on tonight?’ I said, ‘Just come here and look at this. My friends used to come up in a beautiful soft top do, and you only had to go from A to B and the first one comes along and said, ‘Are you English?’ Because the war had finished and they were all, you know, doing. And you were asking me what’s on at night at the pictures. I said, ‘You want an answer do you?’
SP: I believe you saw a few famous people as well while you were there.
CG: Oh, lots of them.
SP: Yeah. Anyone in particular you remember?
CG: Well, Bing Crosby and, he did the abroad. What was it? Bing Crosby. Frank Sinatra. And women. I don’t know I keep losing it. But in fact I’ve got photographs actually somewhere because this is just an hasty look. We’ve got a lot of them.
GC: Yeah. We have.
CG: Yeah. Photos of your time over there in America. Brilliant.
CG: Skated. That was what put me off this because she was so fit. A really fit person. Skated, skied up in the mountains.
GC: Jacqueline.
CG: I saw her, you know. Nice tan on her. And me [laughs]
SP: Yeah. So, whilst you were in New York and you were being treated because of your RAF uniform, in a very special way, you went up the Empire State Building as well.
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. What was that like?
CG: Oh you know, it had had that fire in there. I think you mentioned it didn’t you? When I had come away from it. And yeah. We came away and we had this, this bloke had a camera.
GC: Telescope.
CG: A telescope. This were about a good mile away.
SP: So, you’d been up the Empire State.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Done all your views, come down and there’d been an incident where a plane had gone in to it.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. Well, this but was another one.
SP: Right.
CG: The one had already done that one.
SP: Right.
CG: Gone into it. This was another plane.
SP: Right.
CG: We’d come away from it. We’d come down. Come away. And we come across this bloke reporting it, and we asked and he said, ‘Oh there’s a plane crashed into it.’ It were another one. One of our own. A chap and his wife, she’d had to be, they’d had to be gone in to. I can’t believe it. Just think an hour before it could have been us in there.
SP: You’d have been up there. Yeah. Right. So, was this a small plane?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I forget how much we put in. So many dollars in. It were a few. Crafty this bloke with the telescope.
SP: For people to look. Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Because there was a report that a B25 Mitchell in the fog had gone into it so obviously —
CG: Yeah.
SP: There were some problems around that time so —
CG: Yeah.
SP: But luckily for you, you were in the right place at the right time then weren’t you and you’d come down.
CG: But she said, [unclear] she laughed, when she looked. I said, ‘Oh no, no you outn’t,’ I said. Yes. Anyway, we got on very well then. She was as bad as Jacqueline which was my girlfriend.
SP: So, Jacqueline was your girlfriend in Canada. Yeah. From the family that were up there.
CG: Yeah. Yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, from, after America and then you went back obviously to and from Canada. You came home via Halifax via Nova Scotia, did you? Talk to me about your journey home from Canada.
CG: Funnily enough, yeah. We were going to fly home but we found out there was that plane, not a plane, a ship.
SP: This boat. The HMS —
CG: Yeah. Leticia.
SP: Leticia, yeah.
CG: That was just coming in. It was hours disembarking. And all them from out of that were from England and they were all women and they all had youngsters. You know. They’d got married over here and they were coming to, to live in Canada with baby.
SP: So, their, their boyfriends or husbands were Canadian.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Or American.
CG: Yeah.
SP: And obviously they’d met in the war, in England
CG: That’s right.
SP: And after the war they were going back to live with the families of their crewmen or army.
CG: Well these were, these were actually coming in.
SP: Yeah. From England. The ladies with their children.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Were coming in to Canada.
CG: Yeah.
SP: To live with the force’s, boyfriends and husbands. Right.
CG: We were just the opposite. They were traded. You know after we got off this, off our boat and they were going in the opposite direction. We were talking to them. Yeah. Where do you live? You know.
SP: So I believe you had some fun getting on your, was it on your train towards the ship. You nearly missed it did you?
CG: How did you know that?
SP: Do you want to tell me a little bit about that then?
CG: He put me off.
SP: Yeah. So, you were going to post a letter and —
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: You nearly missed the, oh you did miss the train, didn’t you?
CG: I did.
SP: So how did you catch it up?
CG: Well there was this taxi bloke he, he said we’ll drive, drop you off. He could see what had happened and he said, ‘I’ll try and catch your train up.’ No chance. Anyway, he dropped me off. Then the train [pause] and then we went about ten miles finding an express train. Anyway, we went to the station. It were only a poky little station. I thought it’s never, it’s never going to stop for me here. Anyway, the station master there was the only bloke I could see, and it were, you know, anyway, so I tried. No. I thought it’s not going to stop for me. Anyway, I thought I’d try. He went past me and nearly run me down in the train. But I got chewed up for that. Stopping an express train.
SP: So, you managed to get on.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Right.
CG: Well, the funny thing was I got on board this ship and one or two of my so-called mates said he’s tried to dodge out. He’s tried. All I wanted was to post this card. I said, ‘I want to post this card.’ ‘No, you can’t. You can’t get off.’ He was stopping me moving. You know, moving.
SP: Yeah.
CG: They were winding me up.
SP: So, you got on. How long did it take to get home? Can you remember how long it took on the ship? To sail.
CG: It were only a small ship that I got.
SP: Yeah.
CG: It were luxury because on board were all these women and girls with babies. They’d, they’d turned over like.
SP: Right.
CG: So, you could just imagine and they had the servants, you know, from here. So, we were, there were only fifteen of us and these blokes, English blokes who were more or less with these beautiful girls who’d come over. They were looking after then. They were looking after us then [laughs] honestly. It were like a cruise. It were beautiful. I know it was only a small ship but beautiful.
SP: So, you docked and then you’d go to your demob. Where were you de-mobbed?
CG: Liverpool. Yes. It be so daft. As a mate got out and he was going back with me. We were only, they were only handfuls. Anyway, he was just, you know like how can I make it right? Anyway, how shall I put it [pause] he could go back to his old trade.
SP: Right. Yeah.
CG: But it was when you go abroad and you have these people, you know checking your clothes and all that. What do you call them?
SP: It was like at immigration.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So you were coming in.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Coming in to immigration. Yeah.
CG: Yeah. But, well we didn’t say anything to this other bloke. There was immigration and we were winding him up. They hadn’t noticed ‘cause he’d got his uniform, you know all were in uniform. All the rest of us, nobody, but he didn’t know. And they got panicking because they’d brought cigarettes.
SP: Oh, so they had the cigarettes on them. Yeah.
CG: Millions of them.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And we passed word to this bloke, ‘You’ll have to watch it, Pat’ ‘Why?’ ‘This bloke’s on board doing —,’ and you know lot of cigarettes, all kind of things.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Anyway, the following morning he’s still on board. He still hadn’t checked up. His old mate was there and he were pulling his leg. He didn’t realise it. And the following morning his best friend were looking for him and the ship weren’t a massive one.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But the bay what it had gone in there were millions of cigarettes in boxes all floating around and what had caused it was this bloke saying, I believe this, what do they call them Gillian?
GC: [unclear]
SP: So, they’d all got wet, the cigarettes then.
CG: Oh yeah. They were all floating.
SP: Floating. So at least he got through immigration alright then. He didn’t get in trouble. So you were de-mobbed then. What did you go on to do after the war?
CG: [Francis. Francis’ at Hollywood.]
SP: Right. And what did they do?
CG: Engineering.
SP: Engineering.
CG: Yeah. Yeah.
CG: Which is what you’d wanted to do originally wasn’t it?
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
GC: You were a fitter though.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But I finished up inside the, and I also started building these transformers and what have you, massive things.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And I finished up going all over the place. I got married by then.
GC: You went working on ships, didn’t you?
CG: And I then, I was going on ships, planes all over England.
SP: Right.
CG: and Ireland. That were my job.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And I used to go, they used to be at Harland and Wolff’s building ships there and my job was to go out, check it out, making sure. We used to go north of Scotland on trials and stuff.
SP: Right.
CG: A bit different.
SP: So a lot of travelling.
CG: It was.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I used to fly there.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Part of my job.
SP: And is that what you did ‘til you retired then? Worked in engineering and that.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Brilliant. So obviously you worked in engineering until you retired. When you first got back and you were de-mobbed, I think you met your wife quite soon after the war.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Do you just want to tell me a little bit about that?
CG: Well we both liked dancing, you know and doing —
SP: Where did you meet her? Which dance hall did you meet her in?
CG: I forget what it were called but at the stores.
SP: Right. So, in Oldham.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. You met her there.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Got married soon after.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. And what was your wife’s name?
CG: [laughs]
SP: And your wife’s name was —?
GC: Nora.
SP: Yeah. Your wife’s name was Nora. Brilliant. So, you met her. I think you told me it was love at first sight wasn’t it? Well Cyril it’s been really a pleasure to interview you today.
CG: Oh it is. I’m not. I’ve been losing it. I have. I can’t —
SP: Well you’ve got some fantastic stories there that we can share with people.
CG: Oh I have my [unclear]. Yeah.
SP: We’ll take you some photographs and I’d just like to thank you on behalf of the International Bomber Command for your time today. So, thank you very much Cyril.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Cyril Gosling
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susanne Pescott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-09-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AGoslingC180907
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:21:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Cyril Gosling trained as an armourer at Kirby in Blackpool and was first posted to 49 Squadron where he worked on the guns and turrets. As part of his role he would go on flights in the bombers to check the guns accuracy by firing at drogues. On one occasion they had to make an emergency landing when the engine failed. He often rode on the bomb trolleys on their way to the dispersals.
Cyril was chosen to move to 617 Squadron as an armourer when the squadron formed at RAF Scampton. He met Barnes Wallis and knew Guy Gibson, often taking his dog for a walk. Cyril flew in one of the Lancasters as they carried out a test run over the Derwent Water dam. Cyril's memory of the day of Eder, Möhne and Sorpe operation was marred by a tragic event at the base. His friend had a 'dear John' letter from his girlfriend and took his own life in front of Cyril. After the war Cyril moved to Canada and was involved with the destruction of war equipment not longer needed. He was saddened by the fact that along with armaments, they had to destroy clothing which would have been gratefully received by families in England. During his periods of leave he and fellow RAF colleagues went to New York. They were treated in his words like 'Royalty' and put up in hotels for free and were introduced to Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby. Cyril also remembers going up the Empire State Building when later the same day a B-25 Mitchell bomber crashed into it in during thick fog. Cyril return by Ship to England in September 1946.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
Illinois--Chicago
New York (State)--New York
Illinois
New York (State)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
49 Squadron
58 Squadron
617 Squadron
animal
bomb trolley
civil defence
crash
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
Home Guard
Lancaster
Manchester
RAF Kirkham
RAF Scampton
service vehicle
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/844/10838/AGreenE180522.2.mp3
249391cf79090c9672f3295249b1c716
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Green, Elaine
E Green
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Elaine green (b. 1940). Her Uncle was an armourer for 617 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Green, E
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Ok. We’ll get, just get this going. If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s working.
EG: Ok.
DK: So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing, interviewing [unclear] on the 22nd of May 2018. So, if I just put that there.
EG: Yeah.
DK: I’ll. I’ll occasionally look over like this.
EG: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, what, what I want to do first of all is just ask a little bit about yourself. So, have you always lived in this area then?
EG: No. I, I was born in Yorkshire but I lived in Peterborough but my grandfather lived on Nelson Street in Lincoln.
DK: Right.
EG: And we used to go and see him. And my aunt and my uncle were there as well and my cousin, Richard.
DK: Right.
EG: But they moved around to Woodhall Spa and all around there in lodgings.
DK: Right. If you don’t mind me asking how old would you have been during wartime then? Would you —
EG: I was born 1940.
DK: Right. Ok. So come, come the sort of Dambusters time —
EG: Oh yeah.
DK: You were about three. Three years old.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Oh yeah. Yeah. I don’t remember that but my mother does.
DK: Yeah.
EG: They weren’t supposed to say anything but my uncle did say to my mother, ‘Don’t tell Lottie.’ That was his wife, ‘But pray for us on the 16th.’ Or around about there.
DK: Right. So, your uncle’s name was —
EG: Ernest Richard Bolton.
DK: Bolton.
EG: Bolton.
DK: Bolton.
EG: B O L T O N.
DK: And he was with 617 Squadron.
EG: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Right [unclear]
EG: Yeah. He was in there for twenty five years. I’ve got the paperwork about it. He, I think he was the eldest one in the squadron. He was the, he looked after the bombs and he was the chief armourer.
DK: Right.
EG: He worked with Barnes Wallis. There was letters between him and Barnes Wallis but my aunt destroyed them.
DK: Oh dear.
EG: I know. My cousin was furious about that.
DK: Oh dear. So, you don’t, now after all these years you probably don’t know what exactly he was doing with Wallis then.
EG: Well, he was at the Ladybower.
DK: Right. Right.
EG: And also down by the sea. Where ever that was.
DK: Reculver? Would it have been Kent?
EG: I don’t know but it’s my Aunt Ettie, his sister in law that told me what she knew.
DK: Right.
EG: Guy Gibson said to him, ‘As you’ve been here right from the beginning would you like to go?’ Now, I’d have said no but he said yes and he went so there was a hundred and thirty four went that night. Which plane he was on we’re not sure. It could have been Guy’s. We’re not sure. And, but he cut his head badly and when he got back he was in hospital for two or three days.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, he actually went on the raid then.
EG: He went on the raid.
DK: Right.
EG: As an observer. As an observer. I mean what was Guy? Twenty four.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And he would be forty four.
DK: Right. So, he’d have been born in —
EG: 1900.
DK: 1900. Yeah.
EG: Yeah. There’s a photograph of him. That’s his medal.
DK: Right.
EG: That’s a letter from the King.
DK: So, he was awarded the, just for the recording here he was awarded the MBE then.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So that’s the MBE there.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, it’s Squadron Leader Ernest R Bolton, MBE.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: Yeah. That was from Arthur Harris.
DK: So, there’s a post, well, a telegram here.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: A telegram here to Squadron Leader Bolton at 54 base which was Coningsby.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, “My warmest congratulations on the well-deserved award of your MBE.” Signed by Arthur T Harris.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Air Chief Marshall.
EG: That’s right.
DK: And can I just, for the recording that’s dated 16th of June 1945.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So that’s, that’s from the Under-Secretary of State for Air.
EG: Maybe Johnny Johnson might know about it.
DK: Yeah. Might do. Yeah.
EG: That was —
DK: That’s the Gazette. Yeah.
EG: The Gazette.
DK: The London Gazette.
EG: Yeah. And that was when he died, I think. That one. 1947.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So —
EG: You can have all those.
DK: So, yeah. Right. Thanks. He’s in the London Gazette then and that’s, this is recording his, his death, is it?
EG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh, was it —
EG: I don’t.
DK: Oh, no. It’s —
EG: Bolton.
DK: Bolton. Yeah.
EG: Bolton. I don’t know what MBE.
DK: Yeah.
EG: No. I know he died in ’47.
DK: Right. So, he died January 1947 or —
EG: Yeah.
DK: About that time.
EG: Around about that time. I can remember the funeral. We weren’t sure what it was but we were, my cousin and I were pushed next door while they went to church.
DK: Right.
EG: I think it was St Faith’s. That’s the nearest church to Nelson Street.
DK: So, whereabouts were you living then at this time?
EG: Well, we were living in Peterborough.
DK: Right.
EG: My mother and I.
DK: Right. And Bolton himself, your uncle where was, where would he have been based? Was he based at Scampton at the time?
EG: Well, when he died, no. He’d retired.
DK: Right.
EG: And he’d got a job and through the accident on the plane.
DK: Right.
EG: He caught, he got cancer of the brain and died.
DK: Gosh.
EG: Because of it.
DK: Really?
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, while he was with 617 Squadron then he’s gone up in a plane.
EG: Yeah.
DK: And been injured in some way.
EG: Yeah.
DK: And that led to his death.
EG: Yeah.
DK: In 1947.
EG: ’47. Yeah.
DK: Right. So, he retired and then died very soon afterwards.
EG: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely old chap. I can remember he always used to cook breakfast when we used to go up for a weekend and put a pinny on. He’d got his uniform on.
DK: Yeah.
EG: But always liked cooking breakfast.
DK: Yeah. So, do you know much about what he was doing before 617 Squadron?
EG: No. That’s where —
DK: So you don’t know whether he was, because Gibson tried to recruit most of the aircrew and ground crew. Do you know if he would have been personally recruited —
EG: I think, yeah. I should think he would be, yeah.
DK: Recruited by Gibson.
EG: I should think he would be but you’ve got to find that out.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: There was a programme the other night about it but it was 2010 and they’re saying that the ground, he, he couldn’t recruit many people.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. Not many volunteers [laughs]
DK: No. So, do you know much about what he did after the Dambusters raid then?
EG: No. I know nothing. Now, if you ring my cousin up he might know more.
DK: Ok.
EG: Because he was living with his mum and dad.
DK: Right.
EG: But he said he was at Coningsby.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Because —
EG: Well, it’s not far away.
DK: Yeah. Because 617 then moved so he’s probably then moved with them.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: To Coningsby.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And I think they went to Woodhall Spa after that.
EG: Well, they lived at Woodhall Spa for a bit. But they did have accommodation, I think at Scampton —
DK: Right.
EG: At one time. I remember seeing a photograph of Richard when he was a little boy sitting on the step. It looked like a Nissen hut.
DK: So, the story about the dog then.
EG: The dog.
DK: The dog would —
EG: Well —
DK: The dog called N*****. We can say that in front of [unclear].
EG: Well, I’ll tell you another story about him later but they brought, we were up at my grandfather’s at Nelson Street in Lincoln for the weekend. Uncle Richard brought N***** home and he chewed my hat. I was about two at the time but I thought maybe he’d gone away with his wife but looking at this other, he had a lady friend called Margaret.
DK: Right.
EG: And they used to go to Honeysuckle Cottage.
DK: Oh right.
EG: Did you know that?
DK: No. Yeah. Yeah.
EG: Yeah. Well, I’m not sure about this but my friend, Liz, her mother was his driver and I can’t remember if her name was Margaret but they used to interview her.
DK: Just in case. So it, so that’s, I mean do you remember much about the incident?
EG: No. I remember nothing.
DK: Yeah.
EG: It’s what my mother always told me.
DK: So, no pictures of the dog then.
EG: No.
DK: No.
EG: No. None at all. But funnily enough I was in the dentist in Grantham here and Richard Todd used to live here, around here.
DK: Oh right.
EG: And Richard came into the dentist and, being nosy I said, ‘Oh Richard, by the way,’ I said, ‘Have you heard that they’re going to do a remake of your film?’ And he had this booming voice.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And he shouted out, ‘And do you know they’re going to call the bloody dog Trigger?’ [laughs] Oh dear. Oh, I remember that. But they never did, did they?
DK: No.
EG: Make another film.
DK: So, so the story is, so, the story is then as the armourer there he actually went on the raid itself.
EG: Yeah. As an observer.
DK: Observer. Right.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And is, is there anything, you haven’t got any any documentation at all about when he was with, just that?
EG: Just that.
DK: When he was with Wallis.
EG: This is what my cousin put though yesterday.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: For me. You can have all that.
DK: Ok.
EG: But if you want my cousin you’ll have to ring that number.
DK: Yeah. So, what’s your cousin’s name then?
EG: Richard Bolton.
DK: Right.
EG: It’s another Richard Bolton.
[pause]
DK: I have got my pen here somewhere.
EG: But the RAF, because my uncle died they sent my cousin to boarding school and paid for it.
DK: Oh right.
EG: Yeah. He was at Queen’s College, Taunton, Somerset.
DK: I can never find my pen when I really want to.
EG: Here you are. Just put Richard Bolton on there.
DK: So, is that his son?
EG: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. I think he was stationed in India for a while. I’m positive he was, joined the, not the RAF but before the RAF.
DK: Right.
EG: So, he would be one of the, what did they call it in those days before the RAF.
DK: Oh, the Royal Flying Corps.
EG: The Royal Flying Corps. That’s right.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, his career might go back that far.
EG: Oh yeah. Yeah. He’d been there twenty five years.
DK: Could well do then, couldn’t it?
EG: Yeah.
DK: Because that was 1918.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Might have joined the Royal Flying Corps.
EG: He’d be about eighteen then.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. So, he’s one of the old school.
DK: Oh right.
EG: Yeah. He was a Regular.
DK: So, do you want to, for the recording then do you want to tell your story about your father and the tank? You’re going to have to repeat it again because I’ve just the recorder on.
EG: Well, dad was about, he would be about five at the time.
DK: Yeah.
EG: When my grandfather came home and said he was going to take dad up to the Common to see Little Willie, the tank which was called in those days the Water Tank of Mesopotamia.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And they picked him up, took a photograph of him and put him in the tank and rode around the Common with it.
DK: Right.
EG: So, he was the first child in the world —
DK: To ride on a tank.
EG: On the tank.
DK: So just for the recording what was your father’s name then?
EG: Ernest Watkinson.
DK: Ernest Watkinson.
EG: Yeah.
DK: The first, first child to ride on the tank.
EG: Yeah. I know. I’m still looking for that photograph.
DK: Yeah. As I say you might want to try the Imperial War Museum. They might have it.
EG: Well, they’ve got photographs of a woman with a dog with a long frock on and a hat and two little girls. But not a little boy sitting on a tank.
DK: Yeah.
EG: But I would have thought the papers would have been there. The newspapers. Local.
DK: Could. Could well be.
EG: Yeah.
DK: If you look in the archives for the —
EG: Well, I did ring them up.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And heard no more from them.
DK: Probably might have though if it was a local paper that no longer exists where the archive.
EG: Yeah.
DK: That could have gone but —
EG: Yeah.
DK: But I expect it’ll be out there somewhere.
EG: But also, when my father, who was in the Second World War and he was stationed in Suffolk near Orford.
DK: Right.
EG: Do you know where Orford is?
DK: Yes. Yes.
EG: Yes. South of Southwold.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And he was on duty in the forest there. Is it Rendham or Rendlesham Forest, on a field phone and he was told what he saw that night he wasn’t to divulge.
DK: Was this the famous flashing lights?
EG: No.
DK: Oh, another one.
EG: Before that.
DK: Oh, before that. Oh right.
EG: Before that. No. No.
DK: Because that was quite recent, wasn’t it?
EG: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: That was the 1980s, wasn’t it?
EG: Yeah. Well, apparently —
DK: The Americans saw something in the woods.
EG: Yeah. The Americans saw something in the woods.
DK: Yeah.
EG: No. This was during the war this was.
DK: Oh right.
EG: And apparently the Germans landed. There’s a shingle street and they came with rubber boats and the Canadians, I believe it was the Canadians, dad said went over, dropped petrol on the top of them and dropped a bomb in the middle and they’re all buried in the forest.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: So, whether that was the film, do you remember, “The Eagle Has Landed?”
DK: Has landed yeah. Yeah.
EG: That’s based on that I think.
DK: Based on that. Yeah. There has been rumours of German landings hasn’t there but nothing has ever been —
EG: Oh, yeah. Well, dad saw it that night. Yeah.
DK: Right. Ok.
EG: Yeah. So, whether the lights came on after that —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: I don’t know.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, he had a son then. Richard Bolton who was your cousin.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Was there any other children then?
EG: He had two sons from his first marriage.
DK: Right. Ok.
EG: But what their names are I don’t know. They were much older. His first wife died. Whether in childbirth I’m not really sure.
DK: Yeah. So, you don’t really know anything more about this accident that he actually had on this aircraft other than he banged his head.
EG: Well, he banged his head. I believe cut it open. That’s what my aunt said.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah. Yeah. But he was lovely. He really was a nice man.
DK: And you haven’t got any stories handed down about, you say he was a chief armourer but —
EG: Yeah.
DK: What his actual role was as an armourer?
EG: He was, well that’s all I heard. He was a chief armourer and he worked with Barnes Wallis.
DK: Yeah.
EG: They were quite close and he went around with Barnes Wallis as well. I said there was letters but my aunt destroyed them all.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Why? I don’t know.
DK: Because I’m, I’m wondering. He’s clearly got involved in the development of the bouncing bomb, hasn’t he?
EG: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
DK: And the various issues you’d need to set the thing off.
EG: Yeah. Well, Barnes Wallis might have. If he’s written to him he might —
DK: Might have copies of it.
EG: Copies. Yeah.
DK: Because I think the Barnes Wallis Archive now is in York, I think.
EG: Is it?
DK: I think it’s at the York Aircraft Museum. I think. It should be at Brooklands but, because that’s where he worked for many years but I don’t think it is. It’s either, either Brooklands or up in York.
EG: Yeah.
DK: That’s where it might be. There might be something there.
EG: Yeah. But I took my cousin up to Scampton. Saw the grave and Guy’s office.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: And what have you.
DK: Because it’s got a big fence around it now, hasn’t it? Iron railings.
EG: Has it? Oh.
DK: Yeah. Iron railings around, around the grave.
EG: Oh, yeah. I saw the —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: Railings around the grave. Yeah. And funnily enough the Red Arrows just turned up that time.
DK: Yeah. Oh right.
EG: And the chap, the guide who was taking us around said, ‘If you wave they’ll wave back.’
DK: Yeah.
EG: And as they came down they waved [laughs]
DK: Excellent.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. Well, that’s, I think that’s probably all we’re going to be able to do today.
EG: Yeah.
DK: But just background on him. Is there anything else you’ve thought of?
EG: I can’t think of anything else.
DK: Yeah.
EG: He was, I think he was the oldest one in squadron. There might have been another one on the ground crew but there definitely the flight wasn’t.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: They were in their twenties weren’t they? I mean even Guy was twenty four.
DK: He was only twenty four wasn’t he?
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: David Shannon had only just turned twenty one.
EG: Terrible.
DK: Yes.
EG: I know my uncle as that happened in the May my uncle, my mother’s youngest brother was twenty one on the [unclear]
DK: Yeah.
EG: In July he was shot in Sicily.
DK: Right.
EG: And his captain visited [unclear] in Yorkshire and he said, ‘If it’s any consolation we got the sniper.’ And she turned around and she said, ‘No. You shouldn’t have done that. Somebody else’s son.’
DK: It’s always the tragedy, isn’t it?
EG: Yeah.
DK: The tragedy of war. Nobody, nobody wins in war.
EG: Nobody wins in war.
DK: Yeah.
EG: My grandfather you see we were all mining stock.
DK: Right.
EG: All my uncles had gone down the mines but my grandfather didn’t want his youngest son going down. He said, ‘You’re going to be a gardener.’ So he was called up and killed. Yeah.
DK: Oh dear.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Right. Ok, then. Well, I’ll, I’ll stop the recording there. That’s, that’s great. Thanks very much for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Elaine Green
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AGreenE180522
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:18:02 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Elaine’s uncle worked as an armourer in RAF Scampton. He first joined the Royal Flying Corps before the organisation was renamed the RAF. He worked with Barnes Wallis at the time of the design of the bouncing bomb. He sustained an injury which the family believe led to his early death.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
Lancaster
RAF Scampton
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/153/1614/AKohlerH170303.2.mp3
d2f0f472887d968b2df90cc90be0d7ad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Köhler, Helmut
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of one oral history interview with Helmut Köhler (b. 1928) who recalls his wartime experience as Luftwaffenhelfer and the breaching of the Eder dam. His recollections cover life in German bombing cities.
The collection was cataloged by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HZ: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Harry Ziegler. The interviewee is Helmut Köhler. The interviewee, the interview is taking place at Mr Köhler’s home in [omitted] Kassel on the 3 of March 2017. Also Herr Köhler, dann fangen wir mal an.
HK: Ja, also geboren wurde ich am ersten August 1928 und zwar hier in Kassel, im Rotenkreuz Krankenhaus und zwar in der Hansteinstrasse 17 haben wir gewohnt, das ist im Stadteil Wehlheiden, also nicht hier, sondern im Stadteil Wehlheiden. Und da bin ich, hab ich vier, drei Schwestern gehabt, ältere Schwestern, ich bin also nur unter Frauen gross geworden und leider ist mein Vater schon gestorben als ich knapp drei Jahre war, also 1991 ist, 1891 [?] ist schon der Vater gestorben und da war die Mutter mit vier Kindern alleine und der Vater war im Studienrat weil er einen Knieschaden hatte, desshalb ist er im Ersten Weltkrieg kein Soldat geworden, er hat also im Krieg warscheinlich einen Meniskusschaden durch Fussball haben sie gespielt und heute wär das operiert worden, aber damals konnten sie das nicht und desshalb ist er kein Soldat geworden. Und da hatt er hier in Kassel im Realgymnasium eins sein Studium, sein Abitur gemacht und hatt dann auch studiert in Marburg und zwar Geschichte als Hauptfach und hat da auch promoviert. Und a, und, er stammt also aus Gudensberg und die Vorfahren, also seine Eltern und seine Grosseltern und ich weiss nicht wie viele Generationen zurück, die hatten das Baugeschäft in Gudensberg, ein Bauunternehmen und meine Mutter, die stammt aus Rellingen bei Pinneberg in Schleswig-Holstein und die haben sich kennengelernt auf einer Hochzeit [laughs] die ein Gudensberger Freund von meinem Vater und einer Pinneberger Freundin von meiner Mutter, da waren sie beide eingeladen, haben sich kennengelernt neh und so. Na ja gut und so bin ich groß geworden praktisch ohne Vater und musste natürlich dann auch zum Gymnasium, Realgymnasium eins, das hieß damals Paul-von-Hindenburg-Schule. Und bin dann eben wie gesagt vier, fünf Jahre ganz normal zur Schule gegangen und am ersten September im ’39, Ostern bin ich dahingekommen, und im ersten September ’39 began der Krieg und da waren mit einem Schlag in einer Woche die ganzen jungen Lehrer weg und da kriegten wir die alten pensionerten Lehrer und dann waren aber zum Teil Lehrer, die mit meinem Vater zusammen an der Schule gelehrt haben [laughs], das war natürlich sehr interessant, ‚ach hier das ist der kleine Heinrich‘, neh, das war ich dann, neh. So und so sind wir dann, haben wir dann Schule gemacht war ganz normal, aber dann eben wiegesagt bis ’43 und dann wurde der Luftkrieg härter, da waren schon mehr mal Angriffe hier und dann kamen wir, als Schüler mussten wir dann Luftschutzwache machen nachts in der Schule, so fünf, sechs mit einem Lehrer zusammen, kriechten wir oben im Dachgeschoss so‘n kleines Zimmerchen mit‘em Feldbett und so haben wir den Krieg kennengelernt und in der Zeit ging dann auch in ’44, neh ’43, ging dann die Edertalsperre kaput, und das haben wir sehr gut beobachtet wie die Riesenwelle Wasser kam neh, na ja gut. [sighs] Jedenfalls, dann die Sommerferien waren rum und dann wurden wir zur Erntehilfe abkommandiert, vier Wochen mussten wir den Bauern helfen, Ernte zu machen und dann kamen wir kurz in die Schule und dann war am 22 Oktober 1943 der grosse Angriff hier. Und den habe ich in der Hansteinstrasse mitgemacht, wo ich geboren wurde. Und das war wirklich grauenhaft, also was ich da in den Keller so erlebt habe, auch die einzelnen Menschen, die da alle sassen, viel ältere Frauen und auch ein Paar Männer, ein hoher Offizier, der hier beim Generalkommando beschäftigt war der hat da immer ein bisschen beruhigt und so, also, es war schon grauenhaft, die eine Frau, die hat nur dauernd gesungen, vor lauter Anstrengung, und die andere die hat nur gebetet und so, und meine Mutter hat ganz still gesessen da, Hände gefaltet und dann gingen durch die detonierten Bomben dann gingen, flogen dann die Kellerfenster rein und dann, also er war grauenhaft. Na ja, und dann ist unser Haus nicht abgebrannt da sondern auch ein Paar Nebenhaüser und da hab ich mitgelöscht so und dann. Ja und dann waren die Schulen in Kassel alle kaputt, so und da haben wir drei Wochen, haben wir uns gefreut, hurrah die Schule brennt, uns gefreut alle, und so nach drei, vier Wochen dann haben wir dann doch bisschen im Zweifel geguckt und sind wir mal zu unser alten Schule gegangen, da war die ein riesen Trümmerhaufen aber die Kellergewölbe die waren noch da und da hatte die Schulsekretärin ihr Büro eingerichtet im Keller und da hatt‘se dann gesagt: ‘Jungs, also, Schule wird’s nicht mehr geben in Kassel’ und so war’s dann auch. Da wurden nach dem grossen Angriff, da sind ja etwa zehntausend Menschen umgekommen, und die ganze Altstadt, alles ein Trümmerhaufen, also es war grauenhaft neh und da sind die ganzen jungen Mütter mit ihren Kindern in einer Woche alle aus Kassel weggeschickt worden, die kamen alle in irgendwelche Lager, die Organisation die war damals schon wirklich klasse neh. So, und wir kamen in ein verlassenes Arbeitsdienstlager nach Bracht, bei Marburg liegt das, das war so alles ein Arbeitsdienstlager mit Baracken und da kamen wir alle rein.
HZ: Ist es Bracht mit B?
HK: Bracht mit B, R, A.
HZ: Ja.
HK: So etwa neh. Ich bin nachher nie wieder da gewesen. So und dann schliefen wir in den Hut, in den grossen Baracken da, zwanzig Leute gingen da glaub ich rein, dann immer zwei Lehrer dabei, die schliefen auf Strohsäcken dann und so und dann am Tag hatten wir da ein bisschen Schule und dann kriegten wir irgendwie die Nachricht das wir zur, als Luftwaffenhelfer eingezogen wurden und wir konnten dann nach Hause also im Dezember 1944, konnten wir, die wir bald eingezogen wurden, schon nach Hause. Und dann am fünften Januar mussten wir antreten Schule [unclear] Schule mit einem Papkarton und da stand da genau drinn was man da alles mitbringen durften, zwei Unterhosen, und ein Paar Socken, alles so was [laughs]. Und dann wurden wir auf’n LKW geladen und da stand da drauf:’Eltern durften nicht da mit’ oder so änlich wurde das da bezeichnet und von meinem Freund Erich, der mit mir grossgeworden ist, die Mutter die war klever, die ist dann hinter uns her gegangen wo wir zum, und wo wir auf der einen Seite von dem LKW standen dann ist sie auf der anderen Seite durch so’n Buschwerk und hat den Fahrer geholt und hat gesagt:’Hören Sie mal, wo fahren Sie den hin, mein Sohn ist hier bei’. Und da hat er gesagt: ‘Nach Heiligenrode’ und da wusste, wusste meine Mutter, hatte gleich Bescheid, wussten die zumindest wo wir Jungen hinkamen. Und da sind wir furchtbar ausgebildet worden, also furchtbar, jeden Tag acht Stunden und das im Januar bei Wind und Wetter und da wurden wir auch fast alle krank und erkältet und alles sowas. Und dann so nach’m viertel Jahr wurden wir eingesetzt und auf, ach so und dann fragte dann der Hauptmann, der Kommandeur, der war im Zivilberuf war der Studienrat und zwar in Matte, Mathematik [laughs] und der fragte dann:’was wollen Sie werden?’ Wir waren ja alle per Sie plötzlich mit fuffzehn Jahren und was wollen sie werden, was wollen Sie [unclear] , und da habe ich gesagt:‘Baumeister, Herr Hauptmann, Baumeister’. ‚Umwertung‘, das war also wo die Zielwege aufgezeichnet wurden, das wurde viel mit Zeichnung das war natürlich was neh. Und ein anderer Klassenkamerad der sagte: ‚ich will Elektroingenieur werden‘, der kam zum Funkmessgerät, das war der Vorgänger vom Radargerät, und so hatten manche schon Vorstellung und die die gar nix wussten die kamen zur Kannonen [laughs] na ja und so wurden wir dann ausgebildet. Und ja und so ging das weiter bis zum, also Januar bis etwa Juni und da wurden wir verlegt von der Flakstellung Heiligenrode zu der Flakstellung Niederkaufungen, da war nämlich ein grosses Heeresdepot und zum Schutz von diesem Depot wurde oben auf dem Berg, das ist heute noch hier, Papierfabrik heisst das, Richtung Kaufungen wenn se da mal [unclear], da waren wir zum Schutz da, so und dann war immer Fliegeralarm aber es passierte nix und da haben wir von der Umwertung, wir mussten auch Sperrfeuer schiessen und das wurde von der Umwertung aus gemacht, das war das Flug-Malsigerät, das war so’n, [unclear] und manchmal wurde Sperrfeuer geschossen, den das Vermessen der Entfernung war sehr schwierig damals neh, am Tag ging das durch die vier-meter Basis, aber am nachts war das schwierig. Und das war in der ganzen, in dem ganzen halben Jahr vorher nicht einmal passiert. Und da bin ich mit’m Paar die den Zielweg nicht aufzeichnen brauchten [unclear] Malsigerät wir haben oben zugeguckt wie da die Flak geschossen hat und da ist wohl das Stichwort gekommen Sperrfeuer und unsere Batterie hat das nicht gemacht weil ich net da war und meine Kumpels. Und da simma nächsten Tag wurde eine zbV Batterie aufgebraut und dann kam der Hauptmann schon auf mich zu und ’Sie wissen ja warum sie jetzt versetzt werden’. Da kam ich zur zbV Batterie mit vierleutenarme [?] und da wurden wir dann umgeschult, sollten wir eigentlich nach Breslau, [clears throat] und da haben wir schon das [unclear] gepackt und alles neh und da kamen kurz davor in der Doppelbaracke da war die andere Seite, da war der Oberleutnant, der Batteriechef und der telefonierte plötzlich, da haben wir alle gehorcht und da hatt er gesagt:’Wunderbar! Ist ja wunderbar! Herrlich! Toll!’ und so und da kam er gleich zu uns rüber: ‘Wir fahren nicht nach Breslau, das ist eingenommen worden von Russen’. Und dann kamen wir zur 12,8-Batterie, wurden wir umgeschult, nach Maronhüls [?], da in diesen ehemaligen,
HZ: Wie heisst das?
HK: [unclear] hiess das Nest, das Dorf, [unclear] ist eine grosse Stadt in das [unclear] gebiet da am Rand und da war eine V2-Herstellungs, so ‘ne Fabrik, die das herstellten oder auch schossen oder wie das war. Und die wurden da immer, wenn Flieger kamen, Feinde, da wurde das eingenebelt neh. Und dann wurden wir ausgebildet an den Kannonen und eines Tages da flogen mehrere Kannonen in die Luft durch Rohrkrepierung, das war also Sabotage von Munitionsfabriken, haben irgendwelche Fehler eingebaut.
HZ: Haben dann bei Ihnen waren da auch Russische Hiwis oder waren da auch andere in den Flak?
HK: Ja, waren da [unclear] dabei, Russische weniger, aber italiener, diese Badoglio-Truppen,
HZ: Ja.
HK: Diese von dem abgesprungenen General Badoglio neh, oder Serben glaub ich und so was, die wurden dann da beschäftigt. Und irgend einer hat da warscheinlich so was erfunden dass das und da krepierten in ganz Deutschland bei der 12,8 die Granaten und da hatten sie keine Kanonen mehr. Da kamen wir wieder nach Kassel, hier oben in Welhheiden da haben wir in so einer Baracke gewohnt vierzehn Tage oder was und dann kriegten wir den Einsatzbefehl zur Vierlingsflak Umschulung am Edersee auf der Talsperre. Die war wieder hergestellt, die war ja kaputt, wissen Sie das durch die Ballbombe,
HZ: Ja, die rolling bombs.
HK: Die da rotierte neh, das war ne ganz, technisch ne ganz tolle Sache neh, da muss ich wirklich sagen also war schon klasse aber als wir hinkamen war die schon wieder zugemauert, also das war für mich als Baumensch ein riesige Leistung innerhalb vom Jahr, oder halbes Jahr was die das alles fertigmachen, so sieht’s heute noch aus, ist da nachgemacht worden.
HZ: Wir sind da mal da gewesen, ja.
HK: Also das ist also eine riesige Leistung gewesen, wie die das alle gemacht haben, das weiss ich net, jedenfalls dann wurden wir auf der Vierling, da hatten wir oben auf der Mauer da war so’n holz, Holztürmchen aufgebaut da standen vier, drei Vierlingsflak [laughs] und da soll’n wir nun, wurden wir ausgebildet. So und dann am zwanzigsten, so und dann weil wir vier Kasselaner waren dann wurden wir immer weggeschickt zum Kurierdienst weil man der, Autos gab’s ja nicht, sie mussten also die Kurierpost, die musste zur Heeresgruppe, zur Luftwaffengruppe, des war hier in einer Kaserne auf der Hasenhecke hier in Kassel und da konnten sie an einem Tage nicht mit der Bahn hinfahren und wieder zurückkommen und da haben sie uns vier Kasseler immer eingeteilt, da konnten wir zuhause schlafen. Und da hatten wir das natürlich wunderbar. Und [unclear] ich mal wieder wegblicken, Anfang Februar oder irgend, Mitte Februar war das, da sagte mir der Schreibstubenbulle da, sagte:’Hör mal, wenn du jetzt nach hause gehst bring dir mal ein Paar Zivilklammotten mit’. Ich sag:’warum dann das?’. Das habe ich dann gemacht und dann zwei Tage später bei der Befehlsausgabe, da sagte der Hauptmann: ‘Wer hat Zivilsachen mit?’ Ich, Herr Hauptmann’, ‘morgen Abmarsch’ und da war die Entlassung hier neh. 20 Februar 1944 wurde ich von der Flak entlassen, ich war der erste [laughs], werde ich nie vergessen. Na ja, und dann war ich ein Paar Tage zuhause und da kriegte ich die Einberufung da, die hatte ich ja schon und dann hatten wir den Angriff hier etwa, ich weiss des Datum leider net mehr, am zweiten März oder irgendsowas, muss jetzt, grade jetzt auf die Zeit [unclear] muss das gewesen sein,
HZ: Ich hab mir.
HK: Da ist das Haus getroffen worden und ich war da zu Hause und da war ich mit ein Paar Freunden in einem Bunker.
HZ: Ja?
HK: Das erste Mal in meinem Leben in einen Bunker gewesen, weil da einer Musik machte, da war immer so’n bisschen was los. Und da kam ein Junge rein der sagte: ‘Helmut, stell dir mal vor, bei euch da in der Strasse brennt’s wie verrückt’. Und da bin ich raus, der Luftschutzwache wollte mich net raus lassen, da hab ich ihn weggeschoben, das war mich ganz egal [unclear] und da kam ich hin polterte die treppe hoch so, kurz vor mir ist die Holztreppe eingekracht, desshalb würde ich heute als Baumensch nie eine Holztreppe bauen, immer ne Betontreppe [laughs]. So und da stand ich unten und sah wie aus unserem Wohnzimmer, unserem Herrenzimmer die Flammen [unclear] schlugen und ich konnte nix machen. Da guckte ich so an mir runter da hatte ich Hose an und Schuhe an, keinen Kamm, keine Zahnbürste, da kam ich mir vor wie der ärmste Mensch den’s gibt auf der Welt, wirklich dieses Gefühl, das habe ich schon meinen Kindern erzählt, das war furchtbar, da stand ich da ach Gott, mein Wintermantel der hängt da an der Gardrobe, alles so und kam ich da gar net dran, das war eine furchtbare Nacht. Da bin ich mit meinen Freund, der war auch zufällig da, und da sind wir in den Keller, haben das bisschen was Mutter so’n Paar Koffer und so was, haben wir dann raus auf die Strasse gestellt, na ja und das haben wir dann, haben wir später mit einem Pferdefuhrwerk geholt und alles nach Gudensberg geschafft zu Verwandten.
HZ: Ja, die Geschichte wo Sie da noch zur Stadtkommandantur gegangen sind [unclear] mir erzählt haben.
HK: Ja, das ist da passiert.
HZ: Ja, die könnense noch amal für das Band erzählen.
HK: Ja, gut und da hatte ich ja di Einberufung und dann, so die hatte ich ja vorher schon deshalb bin ich ja bei der Flak entlassen worden, und dann einberufen sollte ich werden, das glaub ich am 6 März oder irgendwas sollte ich da antanzen und am zweiten oder so dann passierte der Bombenangriff und da hat der Onkel gesagt, neh, richtig, der Onkel hat gesagt:’Neh, das geht net, da kannste net weg’, ich sage:’Was mache ich den jetzt?’ ‚Ja dann, geh doch mal zur Ostkommandantur’, und da bin ich dann nach Kassel, ich glaub sogar gelaufen, [unclear] viele Stunden, und dann war die Geschichte ja mit der Ostkommandantur, wo ich draussen stand der Posten und da sagte ich, ‘Luftwaffenoberhelfer Koeler hier der will zum Ostkommandanten sprechen’, [laughs] das ich überhaupt den Mut hatte da staune ich heute noch, und wo er dann, wo ich dann sagte: ‘Ich bitte da um ein Paar Tage Urlaub, meine Mutter ist alleine und wir haben ein Paar Sachen rausgeholt aus’m Keller, die stehen da alle noch und ich muss, meine schwangere Schwester kann auch net helfen und so neh, und dann hat er dann gesagt also, na ja, mich mitleidig angeguckt und da hat er gesagt: ‘Na ja, melden sich in acht Tagen wieder’. ‘Jawohl!’ Und dann bin ich dann los und dann hat der Onkel gefragt: ‘Hat er überhaupt gefragt wo du wohnst?’, da hab ich gesagt: ‘neh’, ‚das ist gut, da gehst du nicht mehr hin‘. Und dann haben wir den englischen Rundfunk gehört abends, ‘Hier ist England, Hier ist England’. Und dann habe ich dann nun, haben wir dann nun bald erfahren wo die Amerikanischen Truppen, die sind dann in Remagen über’m Rhein weg, und dann waren sie schon über Frankfurt weg, und dann sagte der Onkel: ‘Das dauert keine zwei Wochen dann sind die hier’, und es stimmte auch. Am ersten April waren die ersten Amis in Gudensberg. Und so bin ich davongekommen. Und vorher hatte ich noch, da hatte mich mit so’n Mädchen da getroffen, standen wir so im Hauseingang, Ich konnte ja nur abends weggehen, am Tage lies mich der Onkel net raus, da kam einer plötzlich [makes a noise] stand einer neben mir, guckte mich an, sagte: ‘Bist Du den verrückt?’, der dachte ich wäre so’n Desertierter, er war nämlich auch einer. ‚du stellst dich hier hin, eben haben’se drei da oben erschossen‘, die haben’se erwischt neh, und da wurde es mir natürlich unheimlich, da bin ich auch abends weggegangen. Ja und bis die Amerikaner kamen. Das war ein Karfreitag, erster April 1945 [laughs], Karfreitag war das. Und die Tante hatte vorher schon ein bisschen Kuchen gebacken und dann sassen wir dann am Küchentisch und haben Kuchen gegessen. Auf einmal klopft es an der Haustür. Da kamen die ersten Amerikanischen Soldaten. Vor jedem Haus hielt ein, wie nannten die sich diese drei-achsler?, LKWs, na ja gut, weiss jetzt nimmer, und da sassen immer zehn Mann drauf, Amerikaner und im jedem Haus kam da Einquartierung und da mussten die Zivilleute alle raus. Und da kam der Unteroffizier oder was er da war, weiss ich net, der kam als erste sah mich an: ‘Raus!’, so ‘Raus!’. Da sag ich: ‘Moment muss ich Schuhe anziehen‘, zieh am ende Schuhe, dann kam ich die Treppe da runter und da standen zwei mit der MP und haben sie mich abgeführt zum Ostkommandanten. Und da war so’n netter kleiner Dolmetscher und der fragte: ‘Warum sind sie kein Soldat?’ Sag ich: ‘Ich war bei, als Luftwaffenhelfer’. Konnte er nix mit anfagen. [unclear] Und diesen Luftwaffenhelferausweis den hatte ich in der Tasche und dann wollte ich ihn zeigen und da fiel er vor lauter Aufregung fiel mir da hin, da war der schneller da und, ‘Ach!’ sagte ‘jetzt weiss ich was sie waren’. Da ist er zu seinem Boss hingegangen, zu dem Kolonel oder, neh Kolonel war er net, also der Offizier neh, und da kam der raus und dann guckte der mich an. This fellow is [unclear], ab und da bin ich auch schnell nach hause und so bin ich davongekommen. Draussen standen dann da, die haben sie alle aufgesammelt, die verwundet waren, Verwundetenurlaub und so und die sind dann alle nach Frankreich abgeschoben worden. Mussten ein Jahr im Bergwerk arbeiten und so. Ich bin da davongekommen. Das war meine Zeit in Gudensberg und da war ich eben fünf Jahre in Gudensberg, Fussball gespielt und so, das war eine schöne Zeit, aber in Kassel gab’s keine Schulen, des erste halbe Jahr gab’s nix. Und mein Freund hier, der Erich, der ist in Kassel weiter geblieben und der hat mich immer mal besucht in Gudensberg und der sagte eines Tages: ‘Helmut, im Herbst geht die Schule wieder los‘, die Albert-Schweitzer Schule, hier in der Kölnischen Strasse, die hiess damals Adolf Hitler Schule während des Krieges [laughs], und der sagte der Rektor da das ist der Ale Witschi [?], der mal zu uns in der Flakstellung kam und mit dem habe ich jetzt mal gesprochen über dich und der hatte gesagt ich sollte mal kommen, sollte mal gucken, der hätte einen Plan für mich. Da bin ich dann hingegangen, habe einen Ausbildungschef gefragt, hier ‚n Meister, darf ich da mal dahingehen? Ja selbstverständlich. Und da hat er gesagt: ‘Gut, zwei Tage Schule haben wir in der Woche. Und in den zwei Tagen kannste zur Schule gehen und die anderen vier Tage, weil ja Sonnabend auch ein Arbeitstag war, da gehste in die Lehre. Frag mal deinen Lehrmeister ob er das macht.
HZ: Und was haben sie da für eine Lehre gemacht?
HK: Maurerlehrer.
HZ: Maurerlehrer.
HK: So ich war im Baugeschäft, und meine Mutter stammte auch aus dem Baugeschäft, also für mich gab’s gar nichts anderes, ich war, begeistert bin ich heute noch. Ich wollte Baumeister werden, was das damals war weiss ich net, aber das wollte ich ja einfach werden und da musste ich, ja Schule gab’s nicht mehr und da hab ich gesagt, jeden Tag beim Onkel Stall misten wollte ich auch net, ich will Lehre machen und so. So ist das gekommen. Und die Tochter von dem Bauunternehmer hier in Kassel, die war eine Freundin von meiner ältesten Schwester. Also wir kannten die, die Familie kannte sich persönlich sowieso. Nun dann bin ich zum Vitrokin [?], das war der Rektor, der Kommissarische Rektor von der Schule und der hat mich begrüsst wie ein alter Kumpel den der kam in unser Flakschirm das hat man auch Unterricht gekriegt [unclear] Flakschirm weil wir Schüler waren neh und dann hatt er manchmal gesagt [unclear]:’Ach Jungs, habt ihr noch mal, nimmt mal eine Tasse Kaffee für mich’ Und dann kam so, alles zu Fuss, [unclear] und der war wie’n Kumpel für uns, das war der Lehrer, und dann hat er mich begrüsst wie ein alter Kumpel da neh, sagte mach dein Lehrmeister einen Vorschlag und da machste bis Ostern das und dann kriegste das Zeugnis der Mittleren Reife, das hatte ich auch net, hatte ich nix, Schule kaputt, und so haben wir das gemacht. Dann bin ich zwei Tage zu Schule gegangen, richtig noch Latein und Matte und alles sowas neh und dann habe ich so ein Einheitszeugnis, so gross, stand ‘Alles befriedigt’ [laughs]. Na ja gut, und das ist meine Schulausbildung gewesen, kein Abitur gemacht, gar nix. Na ja, und dann habe ich dann studiert, habe ich dann meine Maurerlehre gemacht, an der staatlichen Ingenieurschule beworben, und das war ja auch so tragisch. Da musste zwei Tage Aufnahmeprufung sein neh, mit dem bisschen Wissen was ich da aus der Schule hatte und dann waren, dreisig haben, wolltense aufnehmen, und driehundertsechsig Bewerber kamen da in die Schule am Königstor als Offiziere und hatten noch ihre Offiziersmäntel an und so weil wir nix kaufen konnten [unclear]. Und da bin ich natürlich mit Glanz und Gloria auch durchgefallen. Und da habe ich mich auf die Hose gesetzt. Mit einem Freund aus Gudensberg zusammen, den Roman [unclear], der stammte aus Litauen, der war da Flüchtling, und da haben wir da richtig gepauckt. Hier neben uns da wohnte der Doktor Enders, Mathematik, Studienrat, war’n Kollege, Freund von meinem Vater, genau hier in der Parallelwohnung in der [unclear] und der hat uns dann Mathe beigebracht. Plötzlich viel es mir wie Schuppen von den Augen, plözlich konnte ich ne Gleichung mit zwei Unbekannten, das war gar kein Problem mehr. Und so bin ich dann zur zweiten Prüfung ein halbes Jahr später und da hab ich’s bestanden und so hab ich meine Paar Semester, fünf, sechs Semester glaub ich, [unclear] Ausbildung
HZ: Gemacht.
HK: So ist das geworden. Und dann fanden wir keine Arbeit und so. Und dann bin ich da mit einem Kollegen hier rumgelaufen ob als Maurer ein bisschen Geld verdienen konnten, als Maurer kriegten’se [unclear] Arbeit das war ’52.
HZ: Das war [unclear].
HK: Das war ganz ganz schlimm neh. Und dann hatte ich durch einen Onkel, der war in Bielefeld Stadtrat und der hat mir vermittelt beim Bielefelder Tiefbeamt eine Aushilfstelle für einviertel Jahr und habe auch bei denen gewohnt, es waren so Industrielle die haben da heute noch so Fabriken und so was Graustoffwerk und da hatten sie aber keine Planstelle und mittlerweile habe ich mich beworben bei einer Hamburger Firma die ein Onkel von mir kannte weil der Besitzer, der Vater von dem jetzigen Besitzer er war, war ein Studienkollege von meinem Ober, so hat sich das ergeben. Und die bauten Helgoland wieder auf, weil Helgoland ja ein Abwurfgebiet von der Britischen Armee war nach’m Kriege, da haben sie X Bomben ausprobiert, die ganze Insel Helgoland die war praktisch unbewohnbar, Blindgänger und die mussten wir, wurde praktisch umgepflügt die ganze Insel, drei meter da weggetragen und dahingepackt und da gingen natürlich immer die Blindgänger und die Bomben hoch. Die Bagger die hatten solche Stahlplatten davor, das der Fahrer net verletzt wurde. Und kurz davor kriegt ich ein Telegramm, das habe ich übrigens noch, nächste Woche nicht, Telefon gab’s ja gar net, nicht nach Helgoland sondern Mönchengladbach. So, Telefonummer aufgeschrieben, da bin ich nach Mönchengladbach gefahren da kriegte, hatte die Firma einen grossen Auftrag gekriegt, das englische Hauptquartier, das Hauptverwaltungsgebaüde, das steht übrigens heute noch, da habe ich auch jetzt ein Bild gefunden noch davon und das hatte ja zweitausendzweihundert und so und soviele Zimmer, Britische Rheinarmee. Und das habe ich, da war ich Bauführer nannte sich damals. Waren wir drei Mann und hatten teilweise bis vierhundert Leute beschäftigt. Britische Rheinarmee hiess das glaub ich. Und da habe ich auch die Einweihung mitgemacht, da haben wir noch, vorne in den Haupteingang, in dem Pfeiler, da haben wir noch eine Kassette eingemauert die muss heute noch [unclear] sein, sind noch warscheinlich noch Namen die ich noch merkte, ich weiss es nimmer so genau, mit ne silbernen Kelle haben wir da [unclear]. Und das war meine Grösse und auch eine, da habe ich viel gelernt [unclear]. Ganze drei Jahre war ich da. Das war sehr interessant und da habe ich mit einem Englischen Pionieroffizier viel zu tun gehabt neh, das waren die die eher kein Deutsch konnten. Und ein Ziviloffizier der war mittlerweile dann, er war früher auch bei den Pionieren gewesen und der war dann entlassen worden wegen Alter, der war dann schon Ende fuffzig oder irgendwas, und der wollte noch als Zivilingenieur und der schlief auch in einer Barakke von uns und dem haben wir auch Skatspielen beigebracht.
HZ: [laughs]
HK: Und dann haben wir auch mit dem die Weltmeisterschaften damals wo Deutschland Weltmeister 1954, da hatten wir noch kein Fernsehen und alles so was. Da hat er mit uns geguckt, da haben wir auf’n Stuhlen gestanden und [laughs], na ja und das war der mister Webster und der hat mich so ein bisschen aufgeklärt, der sagte, hören sie mal Herr Koehler, der sprach ganz gut Deutsch, weil er eine Deutsche Frau hatte aus Aachen und der sagte: ‚Die können bestimmt auch Deutsch‘, und da habe ich mal irgendwie was falsch verstanden und da hat er mich zur Rede gestellt. Mister Buru, was er für einen [unclear] hatte weiss ich nicht, Major, Major Buru, und da habe ich gesagt: ‚so Major Buru‘, habe ich in Deutsch dann gesagt, ab jetzt kann ich kein Englisch mehr‘ und da hat er gelacht und da kam der mister Webster dazu und da haben die ein bisschen gequatscht und seit dem haben wir nur noch Deutsch gesprochen und mit den anderen Kollegen genauso [laughs]. Das war nun meine Zeit mit den Engländern und ich wollte immer nochmal nach’m Kriege hin, nach der Zeit hin, aber ich bin nie wieder dahingekommen. Es muss heute noch da und wenn sie mal da in der Nähe sind, Mönchengladbach, Ortsteil Hardter Wald, das ist ja’n Riesenbezirk, das sind ja, das ist hier wie ‚ne Stadt, da lebten fast zwanzigtausend Menschen, da gab’s Schulen und für die Offiziere, und Offizierskasino und Kino und Theater und da haben wir mehrere Baustellen gehabt, das war meine schönste Zeit so mit
HZ: Aus [unclear]
HK: Und von da aus sollte ich dann nach Berlin da kriegtense in Berlin ‚n Auftrag, und weil wir nun damals für das Englische Hauptquartier bauten, da waren wir für die DDR Feinde. Das war der Karl Eduard von Schnitzler hiess der, Sudel-Ede hiess der, der brachte so politische Kommentare jeden Tag, das war so’n Richter. Ich weiss nicht ob sie den Namen schon
HZ: Den Namen kenn ich noch ja.
HK: Eduard von Schnitzler, der Sudel-Ede hiess er bei uns, und der hat da mal gesagt: ‘Es gibt sogar Deutsche die für die feindlichen Truppen heute noch bauen’ und da haben wir sogar, wurden die Namen genannt, unsere drei Namen. Und ich hab’s selber net gehört, das haben sie von Hauptbüro aus Hamburg habense uns das gesagt, also hütet euch, die Verbindungsstrasse zu fahren zwischen Helmstedt und Berlin, [unclear] vielleicht festgenommen. Und dann sollte ich nach Berlin, da hätten wir nun fliegen können von Hannover aus und da hab ich dann hier alles mögliche mobil gemacht hier in Kassel neh. Durch so‘n befreundeten Architekten, dann kriegte ich dann ‚ne Stelle bei einem Architekten hier und von da aus, na ja, das interessiert sie jetzt [unclear]. Und so bin ich nachher bei der Stadt gelandet, bei der Stadt Kassel und hab für die die Kläranlage, das war der erste grosse Massnahme, die Kläranlage baute, seit dem haben sie mich übernommen und da war ich naher auch in zwanzig Jahren Sachgebietsleiter vom Brucken und [unclear] Bau. Wenn sie jetzt über eine Brücke fahren ist alles so [laughs]
HZ: [laughs] kann ich sagen.
HK: Na ja gut das ist mein Lebenslauf.
HZ: Ehm, so, weil sie schon mal angefangen, angesprochen haben mit dem Bombenangriff auf Kassel, was denken sie eigentlich wären so prägende Erlebnisse gewesen die sie vielleicht auch heute noch beschäftigen?
HK: Ja, die mich heute noch beschäftigen, ich seh’s jetzt erstmal vom baulichen Standpunkt her. Die ganze Altstadt, die aus‘m Mittelalter noch stammt, die ist mit einem Schlag innerhalb zwei Stunden war alles kaputt und zehntausend Menschen in den Kellern, so, und die haben einen schönen Tod gehabt. Die sind an Sauerstoffmangel eingeschlafen. Den Keller hat wir ja früher net met waagerechten Decken gemacht sondern es waren nur Gewölbe, sonst ging aus staatlichen Gründen net anders neh. Und da sind die eingeschlafen, die sind regelrecht gebacken worden, oben bis auf diesen brennenden Schutt rauf und dieses Gewölbe war wie Backofen beim Bäcker. Da sind die zusammengeschrumpft so wie wir, wir wären plötzlich so gross gewesen, dieses ganze Wasser wäre verdampft neh. Die haben eigentlich einen sehr schönen Tod gehabt. Entschuldige wenn ich das so sage heute, das will ja keiner hören. Die sind eingeschlafen, Sauerstoffmangel, eingeschlafen und nie wieder aufgewacht. Und sind gebacken worden. Denn Ich habe die ja nachher gesehen wo sie aus den Kellergewölben rausgeholt wurden, von Gefangenen her, die ehemaligen Nazis und die mussten die da rausholen. Nach’m Kriege und so neh.
HZ: Sind da eigentlich beim raümen weil sie da auch dabei waren, sind da auch Zwangsarbeiter und Kriegs, wie heiss’ns, Kriegsgefangene eingesetzt worden?
HK: Ja diese, Kriegsgefangene, waren da auch. Das will ich noch mal kurz sagen. Die Flakstellung wo wir waren bei der Flak. Ich war nun bei der Umwertung, und der, war mein Schulfreund hier und der Elektrofritze da, wir hatten zuhause, der Mann, der Ober der war schon ein grosser Elektroindustrielle und so, Funkmessgerät und so. Und wennse zur, an’s Geschutz kamen, da war, drei Kannoniere waren Luftwaffenhelfer, die stellten diese Messgeräte an, wir konnten das ja viel besser als die Soldaten die vorher da waren, weil wir schneller und pfiffiger waren neh, das waren drei Luftwaffenhelfer an jeder eine Kannone, die die Breitengrade, Höhengrade und die Entfernung eingestellt haben und der Ladekannonier das war ein Deutscher und die Zureichen die Munition, das waren meistens Russische Kriegsgefangene. Müssen sich das vorstellen, die saßen, oder Französische, die saßen mit uns in dem kleinen Wald da neh und haben gebibbert. Dann habe ich dann auch von denen die, zum Teil Deutsch, hattense immer Hunger und dann kriegten sie von uns immer eine Scheibe Brot neh und alles so was. Wir hatten ein gutes Verhältnis mit denen, das war das mit den Kriegsgefangenen und die waren natürlich auch viele in der Industrie hier in Kassel, in Kassel hatten wir die Junkerswerke und so,
HZ: Da hätten [unclear] der Fieseler.
HK: Fieseler und so. Und auch die Munition herstellten [unclear] war früher neh und so und deshalb war ja auch die Flak hier rings rum und so. Ja und so haben wir viel mit den Kriegsgefangenen, wie viel da nun tot gegangen sind hier in der Stadt, die wohnten ja net hier in so, die wohnten immer ausserhalb in so Lagern, desshalb sind net allzu viele da umgekommen von den Kriegsgefangenen.
HZ: Nöh, ich hab bloß, ob die dann auch eingesetzt, ob die dann auch eingesetzt wurden beim raümen. Ich hatte da, ich hatte da von dem, da hatt schon mal einer Überlebensberichte veröffentlicht ‚93, die habe ich mir mal angeguckt und da sind auch zumindestens zwei Holländer und ein Franzose dabei. Aber, weil halt dann die Zeitungen hier, die Regionalzeitungen, die fragen ja dann schon nach Zuschriften, aber weil das ja dann immer bloß regional gemacht wird, da kriegt man ja dann immer bloß die Deutschen Stimmen,
HK: Richtig. Richtig, genau. Richtig.
HZ: Die von dem anderen, da hört man ja nix und das wär natürlich auch mal interessant.
HK: Nein also Holländer waren viele, Kriegsgefangene Holländer waren viele hier in Kassel. Und hier eine kleine Episode wo wir aus dem Keller mit meinen Freunden, aus dem, irgendwo brannte es, aus dem Keller haben wir dann die Paar Sachen rausgeholt, die lagen tagelang, vier, fünf Tage auf der Strasse, da hat keiner was geklaut oder irgendwas neh. Und dann wo wir dann mit dem Pferdewagen hier nach Kassel kamen und haben das dann abgeholt wollen, da war mitten in der Strasse, also die Hansteinstrasse, die Uferstrasse ist, genau in der mitte der Strasse war ein Riesenbombentrichter. Wir konnten also mit dem Wagen garnet zu unserm Haus finden.
HZ: Ja.
HK: Es war nur so’n schmaler Streifen an dem Vorgarten links und da hätten wir die ganzen Sachen da vorne an die Hauptstrasse bringen müssen, wo der Wagen stand, und da bin ich unten in die Hauptstrasse rein und da kam mal zwei Männer und da sag ich:, kommt mal her, wollt ihr mir da ein bisschen helfen?‘, das waren Holländer und die haben mir geholfen diese Sachen dahin und da habense so’ne Flasche Wein also von meinem Vater her, der hatte noch so‘n Weinschrank und da waren noch ein Paar Flaschen Wein drin und da hab ich ihnen eine gegeben und eine habense mir noch geklaut, das hab ich aber erst später gemerkt aber das hab ich ja eingesehen, das war schon richtig neh und so und das waren Holländer. Die haben mir dann geholfen. Also die liefen dann hier rum, so Freizeit, haben net dauernd gearbeitet, aber wie das war weiss ich net. Also über diese Verhaltnisse weiss ich eigentlich wenig Bescheid, die waren nur da, aber was se sonst so gemacht haben weiss ich net.
HZ: Da hat’s, ’95, die haben mal eine Wiedervereinigung hier gemacht, da haben sich welche hier in Kassel sogar wieder, wieder getroffen. Aber wie gesagt, die, man hört halt die Stimmen, man hört halt immer bloß die, also die Deutsch waren und auch hier im Gebiet geblieben sind, weil ich glaube das da einer in Bad Nauheim zum Beispiel die Hannoversche Allgemeine liesst, die werden, da gib’s halt dann keine Zuschrifften, desswegen habe ich da bloß immer so, so gefragt.
HK: Also es gab ja viele persönliche Schicksale auch neh, das auch sich Freundschaften gebildet haben. Zum Beispiel hier hatte mein Onkel in Gudensberg, der kriegte einen Polnischen Kriegsgefangenen, so als Hilfe, und das war ein Polnischer Student, war ein hochintelligenter Kerl, Jurek hiess er, und der hatte vorher noch nie was mit Landwirtschaft zu tun gehabt, der musste da milken lernen und so, der hatte es sehr gut beim Onkel, der durfte nur net am Tisch sitzen, sondern der musste am Küchentisch, da wurde so’ne Platte rausgeschoben, da sass der. Und mit dem bin ich dann zusammen auf’n Acker und hab gehackt und so und da hab ich ihm die Deutsche Grammatik beigebracht, das wollte er gerne wissen und ich hab da auch die Polnische Grammatik mitgekriegt, also das war aüsserst interessant. Und die Geschichte, er interessierte sich für alles, also war schon interessant neh. Hatten ne richtige Freundschaft geschlossen neh, der war nur zehn Jahre älter oder was, aber trotzdem. Und der ist auf einem Polnischen Zerstörer Soldat gewesen und da kamen die Stukas gleich am ersten oder zweiten Tag und haben den versenkt in der Ostsee und da haben sich ganze drei Mann retten können und er konnte gut schwimmen und hatt dann, durch’s schwimmen hatt er dann sich’s Leben gerettet. Und dadurch das er nun gut Deutsch konnte und sehr intelligent war, ist er in dem Polnischen Reisebüro Orbis nachher angestellt gewesen, in Danzig, neh in Posen glaub ich war das, neh Danzig, Stettin, entschuldigung, es ist, so ist das heute mit dem alten Kopf, Stettin. Und der hat mich hier mehrmals besucht. Der war der erste Polnische Reisende der hier in Deutschland sich bewegen durfte und der hat die Deutschen Reisegruppen, die wurden an der Grenze abgefangen und dann, die mussten ja alles ohne Aufsicht neh und wenn ne Deutsche Reisegruppe war, dann haben sie ihn eingeteilt weil er auch Deutsch konnte und wenn hier eine Reisegruppe aus Kassel kam, dann hatt er gesagt: ‚Sie kommen aus Kassel?‘, ‚Ja‘ ,Kennen sie Helmut Koehler?‘ ‚Nöh‘. Dann hatt er ihn die Telephonnummer gegeben, ja da hatte ich schon Telephon richtig, Anfang der 60er Jahre oder wann das war, ändert doch, ja so ungefähr, was soll denn, und da hatt er gesagt: ‚Rufen sie an wenn sie jetzt zuhause sind‘. Und da kriegt ich da X Telephongespräche hier von allen möglichen Leuten, ich soll sie grussen vom Yurek, [laughs] war schon interessant. Und dann kam er dann wirklich mal an und hat, er war der erste Polnische Reisende der hier nach Deutschland kommen konnte. Und dann kam er hier an, hatte vorher angerufen, war meine Frau da, die kannte den Jurek ja net und dann sagt’se, rief sie mich an im Büro, sagt‘se:‘Der Jurek hat angerufen‘. Jurek, ja dein Polnischer Freund, ja ja. Und dann haben wir am Fenster gestanden, um fünf oder was wollte er kommen und hatt sich dann, savott, [unclear] sieht genauso aus. Und der war jahrelang gleich nach’m Kriegsende hier in einer Kaserne auf der Hasenhecke da kamen die ganzen Polnischen und Russischen Kriegsgefangenen wurden da erstmal einquartiert und da war er Chef der Lagerpolizei. Da hat er mich eingeladen zu seiner Hochzeit, da hat er geheiratet und da hat meine Mutter gesagt: ‚Du kannst da net hinfahren, erstmal komste da gar net hin‘, erstmal von Gudensberg aus nach Kassel fuhr gar kein Zug richtig, und dann von hier aus laufen bis zur Hasenhecke das war in Waldau ganz, ich weiss net ob sie das genau so kennense.
HZ: Wir sind heute oben gewesen.
HK: Waldau, das ist so ganz unten an der Fulda da neh. Das ist noch mal mindestens zwei Stunden Fussweg neh, wie willste denn dahin kommen und da bin ich da net hin. Und da hat er mich am Bahnhof abgepasst, ich hab ja da schon gearbeitet, da hat er gesagt:‘So, du bist auf meiner Hochzeit nicht gewesen‘, da hat er mich ein ganzes Jahr lang net angeguckt, da kam er [unclear]. Und der, ich hab noch Post von ihm heute, da hatt er mir, ach, x-mal geschrieben und da kam er hier und dann hatt er mir von der Polnischen Politik berichtet, hier bei mir durfte er das jetzt sagen. Also das waren Zustände, wissense [unclear], soundosoviel Quadratmeter eine Person, durfte glaub ich nur zehn Quadratmeter Wohnfläche haben für eine Person sonst musseste zahlen, also unmögliche Zustände. Na ja gut, das war mit den Polen.
HZ: Und noch, noch irgendwas von der, noch irgendwas aus ihrer Zeit von der, bei der Flak?
HK: Von der Flak, neh. Ja gut also, wie gesagt, hier wo wir am Edersee waren, alle, zweimal in der Woche musste ich nach Kassel fahren, ich hatt’s natürlich gut, da brauchte ich keinen Dienst mehr zu machen. Und so habe ich auch viele Angriffe mitgemacht, die letzten Angriffe neh. Und da war ja meine Mutter und meine [unclear] schwangere Schwester die waren dann schon in Gudensberg, aber die Wohnung war immernoch da, die ist erst ganz, ja, letzter Angriff oder vorletzter Angriff auf Kassel. Und da war die Nachbarin die hat ja gesagt: ‚Helmut, kannst ruhig hier schlafen, wenn Fliegeralarm kommt da mach ich dich schon wach‘. Weil ich das [unclear] gehört habe, als junger Bursche [laughs] und so war das neh. Ja also da gibt’s eigentlich und dann die Angriffe hier. Dann eines Tages hatten wir einen Blindgänger im Haus, das war in der Silvesternacht, vom ‚44 auf ‚45, da war ich am Edersee und Neujahr musste ich Kurierdienst machen und da war ein Zettel an der Haustür: ‚Vorsicht, Blindgänger‘. Alle Leute [unclear] raus, die mussten alle weg. Da ist durch die Decken, durch die Bäder, wir hatten sogar schon Bäder damals, ist die Bombe durch die ganzen Bäder durch und über der Luftschutzkellerdecke ist die Bombe hängen geblieben, wenn die explodierte waren sie alle tot. Und meine Mutter, wir wohnten im dritten Stock, die ist als erstes raufgegangen, die wäre fast da reingefallen in das Loch, die hat das erst gar nicht gesehen weil ja kein Licht da, kein Strom und nix. Und dann hat sie geschrien und dann die Leute alle: ‚Ach Gott!‘ durch die Badewanne durch, war plötzlich ein Loch [laughs]. Na ja, und das haben’se dann wieder irgendwie geflickt, bis es dann ganz kaputt ging. Ja und als Luftwaffenhelfer das was insofern ‚ne interessante Zeit weil das für uns eben, ja, wie soll ich das sagen, wir waren aufgeweckte Gymnasiasten und wir hatten plötzlich eine Zeit vor uns die, die wir net richtig begreifen konnten, habe ich ja eben schon gesagt was is wenn der Krieg jetzt zu Ende ist, was passiert denn mit uns? Diese Gespräche hatten wir schon.
HZ: Das könnten sie auch für das Band nochamal dazu sagen, weil das haben sie mir ja schon vorher mal erzählt. Die Gespräche dann das die vielleicht, das da vielleicht die Flakhelfer so einen Sieg des Dritten Reiches gar net so entgegengesehn haben.
HK: Ja, das war zum Beispeil nach dem Angriff, nach dem Attentat auf‘m Hitler, das war der 20 Juni, Juli, glaub’ich, Juni.
HZ: Juni.
HK: 20 Juni 1944.
HZ: ‚44.
HK: Und dann, wie gesagt, dann in der Kabine, von der Funk, ach wie heisst der, wo die Nachrichten kamen, da wurde dann immer so die Lage da mitgeteilt, Hitler ist davongekommen undsoweiter, aes wurde da immer mitgeteilt. Und da kam der Hauptmann, Leutnant [unclear] und konnte dann [unclear] hören. So und da haben wir abends im Bett gelegen und haben dann gesagt: ‚Hier, das was wohl jetzt wird hier‘ undsoweiter und der Hitler ist davongekommen und da hat der einer gesagt.‘So’ne Scheisse!‘ [laughs], das werde ich also nie vergessen. Und da haben wir schon drüber unterhalten. Was wäre gewesen wenn und da haben wir aber auch debatiert drüber was des auch der Stauffenberg neh, was der auch für Fehler gemacht hat. Wenn er schon sowas macht, das Attentat auf’n Hitler, dann hätte er das auch richtig machen müssen. Er hätte warten müssen bis der tot ist, net vorher schon weglaufen. Er ist ja weggelaufen wo es da explodiert ist, er hätte sich erkundigen müssen, ist er nun wirklich tot oder so, und dadurch ist [unclear] das alles entstanden, wäre er danach stehngeblieben und hätte anschliessend erschossen, dann wäre er zwar auch erschossen worden aber so ist er auch umgekommen. Also das haben wir damals diskutiert, also der Stauffenberg hat da Fehler gemacht. Also so sachliche Gespräche haben wir als junge Leute gemacht, das ist mir noch gut [unclear] aber sonst mussten wir immer das machen was befohlen wurde, eigene Initiative konnten wir net haben.
HZ: Die, ehm, da werden verschiedene Zahlen angegeben, wie viel Flakhelfer einen Luftwaffensoldaten ersätzt hätten, ‚43, da heisst es, die einen sagen das wären, ein Flakhelfer für einen Soldaten gewesen, andere sagen das seien drei Flakhelfer für zwei Soldaten gewesen. Wissen sie da irgendwas?
HK: Hab ich ihnen ja eben gesagt, also diese Posten die wir hatten an der Kannone, die wären sonst von Soldaten gemacht worden
HZ: Also eins zu eins.
HK: Also jede Kannone wurden drei Soldaten gespart. Und wenn’s so’ne Grosskampfbatterie, die hatten acht Kannonen, acht ortsfeste Kannonen, also drei mal achzehn, vierundzwanzig Soldaten wurden schon alleine Kannonen gespart. Und dann kam dazu noch Kommandogerät, da hatten wir auch pfiffige Schüler von uns, die waren am Kommandogerät, da waren auch mindestens dreie, ich weiss es heute nicht mehr so genau, jeden [unclear] und Funkmessgerät. Und dann hier die Umwertung, wo wir nur Luftwaffenhelfer waren, da waren ja früher Soldaten. Also ich hatte alleine, ich war mal eine Zeitlang [unclear] Unteroffizier der, des Befehlsgewalt hatte über die Umwertung, der musste zum Lehrgang, da muss ja einer Stellvertreter sein und da hatt der Hauptmann bestimmt das war ich. Und in der Zeit ist das passiert mit dem Sperrfeuer und da musste ich natürlich bestraft werden, da kam ich zur zbV Batterie [laughs] das ist so kleine Erinnerung, da wurde ich bestraft. Na ja aber schon, das sind dann schon also vierundzwanzig, ich möchte mal sagen schon fast dreissig Soldaten wurden da schon gespart an einer Flakstellung, und wir waren ja ungefähr dreissig Luftwaffenhelfer.
HZ: Sind da auch welche von denen die sie gekannt haben, sind da auch welche gefallen?
HK: Neh.
HZ: Neh.
HK: Also wir haben zwar einen Bombenangriff mitgemacht und zwar in Kaufungen, da wo des grosse Lager von Panzern und LKWs war von der Deutschen Industrie, da ist genau zwischen der Flak, zwischen der Geschützstellung und zwischen der Befehlsstelle, da waren ungefähr, hundert, hundertfuffzig meter dazwischen und genau da ist mal ein ganzer Bombenteppich runter [unclear], genau dazwischen, und da hatt einer noch hier, am Fuss hier, irgendwie‘n Stein oder was da, kam ins Lazzaret hatte eine Verse kaputt. Das war das einzige was ich erlebt habe. Aber hier vorne, in der [unclear] hier, wenn sie hier ein Stückchen runtergehen, zum Auestadion, da ist, geht’s links die Ludwig-Mond-Strasse hoch und das war früher alles freies Feld und da stand eine Flakstellung, die haben viele Tote gehabt da. Da ist mal ein ganzer Bombenteppich über die Flakstellung weg, aber wie viel das wurde damals nicht bekannt gegeben. Da waren also mehrere Schüler die sind dann umgekommen aber zahlmässig waren es verhältnissmässig wenig, dass muss ich schon sagen. Die haben schon ein Bisschen auf uns jungen, junge Burschen so’n bisschen Mitleid gehabt oder so. Auch die Offiziere, das waren alles Familienväter und so. Unser Batterieschef der war von Beruf Mattestudienrat und der sah nun die armen Jungen da und hatte vielleicht selber auch Kinder zuhause und so. Also die haben uns schon so’n bisschen [unclear], das haben wir damals nicht so gemerkt, das haben wir nur dann später so erzählt wenn wir mal zusammen waren, na ja.
HZ: Gut.
HK: Weiss nicht ob ich ihnen viel dienen konnte mit dem, also, eh.
HZ: Des ist, des is ok, da bedanke ich mich. Weil das geht ja um ihre Erinnerungen, das geht ja net da drum.
HK: Ja, sicher, ich meine, Politik wurde damals ja ausgeschlossen, Politik gab’s die ganze Woche Politik, das kannten wir ja net gar net, also wenn da einer was von Politik erzählte wusste da einer gar nix mehr da anzufangen. Was Hitler sagte das war Evangelium. Und ich kann mich erinnern, das war wo wir am Edersee waren, sind, Weihnachten, ja hatten wir keinen Ausgang, mussten wir da bleiben Weihnachten, Weihnachten ‚44, ah da gab’s da ein Festessen, da gab’s net nur Sauerkraut und Pellkartoffeln, das gab’s fünf mal in der Woche, da gab’s dann zu Weihnachten ein Stückchen Fleisch ob das nun vom Hund war oder vom das wusste kein Mensch. Und da sassen wir in der Kantine und da sagte dann der Hautpmann: ‚Na, nun wollen wir mal ein Weihnachtslied singen‘. Da waren wir alle so traurig, wir Jungen, kriegte keiner einen Ton raus und einer nach‘m anderen ging dann raus und ich musste dann auch raus weil Tränen kamen und dann standen im Saal und heulten aber wie, ein Geschluchze und so. Also man merkte dann doch diese innere Ergriffenheit unter uns Schülern, wir waren net alle so, und dann mussten wir dann die Reden von Goebbels glaub ich oder wer das war, mussten wir dann anhören. Also es war schon manchmal schwierig, das kann ich ihnen sagen. Genau wie ich mal als Pimpf, wie war denn das, ich war hier auch, Hitlerjunge net zuerst waren es Pimpfe neh, also Jungvolk hiess das, mit zehn Jahren und so, da kriegtense die Uniform da waren wir ganz stolz drauf. Und dann war, wie war denn das eigentlich, jetzt weiss ich nicht zu welchem Anlass, denn da musste ich in der Stadthalle auf der Bühne an der Fahne stehen und vor uns dann, war das nach dem ersten Angriff auf Kassel glaub ich, das war ‚42, was, so war das, da kam der Joseph Goebbels und hat’ne Rede gehalten, da [unclear] so fünf, sechs Meter hinter’m Joseph gestanden, mit der Fahne neh, da konnte sie ja nix ändern dran, sie wurden einfach bestimmt, konnte sie sich net wehren oder so, das weiss ich immer noch so und da hat unsere Herzen werden starker und was er da alles gebrüllt hat, das ist zu erinnern. Genau wie einmal, das war glaub ich zum Reichskriegertag, ‚39, da war ich grade so‘m Pimpf, da war der Hitler hier in Kassel, zum Reichskriegertag, das mus ‚39, nah sie konn’s ja besser recherchieren, ich weiss nicht mehr wann das war, und da waren wir an der schönen Aussicht und da sollten wir absperren und, aber die Leute haben uns kleinen Jungen ja weggedrängt. Da bin ich hinten auf die Mauer die ja heute noch da ist und hab von oben geguckt und ich sag immer heute noch zu den Jungen, da hat mich der Hitler begrüsst, da guckte er nämlich grade dahin, machte immer so net, und grade da in dem Moment wo er zu mir guckt, da winkte er, da sag ich er hat mir zugeguckt [laughs] [unclear] das wissen meine Enkel sogar [laughs] [unclear]. Ja, Hitler, das ist so, für meinen Begriff, war das schon ein grosser Stratege und ein unheimlich schlauer Mensch, ganz egal was er nun gemacht hat, das Ergebniss war ja schlecht, aber wie er das gemacht hat, es gibt in der ganzen Geschichte, sie kennen die Geschichte besser, so Napoleon oder, ganzen Kriegen so, wie der Cäsar und so, das waren Strategen neh, oder hier, Dschingis Khan und so, wenn man sich vorstellt, in der Zeit, die kommen von der Mongolei mit Pferden und was weiss ich alle hierher, und beherschen ganze Riesenreiche hier. Also das ist schon eine gewaltige Sache und in diese Kategorie gehört meiner Meinung auch der Hitler wenn auch jetzt negativ seine Taten waren, aber er war Stratege, er hat bestimmt was jetzt gemacht wurde und die ganzen Generäle, die Feldmarschälle mussten das machen was er wollte. Das ist gar nicht so einfach sich das vorzustellen. Ich will den net in Schutz nehmen, net dasse denken ich wär ein alter Nazi oder so neh [laughs]. Aber er war wirklich und mein Vater der war jawohl, gut ich wusste nur, er hat jetzt eine Doktorarbeit gemacht über den Alten Fritze da und den Schlesigen Kriege da, und was er verehrt hat, das weiss ich von meiner Mutter her, Napoleon. Das war für ihn ein Riesenstratege wohl. Da hing sogar im Flur ein Riesengemälde von Napoleon, da kann ich mich als Kind da noch erinnern. Also es gab in der Welt mal so bestimmte Typen die übernormal strategisch begabt waren, das wissen sie besser, [unclear] sowas hier dazu erzählen [laughs] aber das ist meine Empfindung hier, meine Empfindung.
HZ: Gut, dann bedanke ich mich jetzt auch [unclear] mal.
HK: Ja, ich hoffe das.
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Title
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Interview with Helmut Köhler
Description
An account of the resource
Helmut Köhler (b. 1928) recalls his wartime experience as Luftwaffenhelfer. He provides a first-hand account of two attacks on Kassel, the first on the 22 October 1943 and the second in March 1944. He describes his time spent inside the air-raid shelter; how he helped extinguish fires; the destruction of schools and the entire old town being razed to the ground. He also discusses everyday life in an anti-aircraft unit, the process of matching skills to roles, training, and anti-aircraft fire. He mentions being posted to a special deployment unit as a punishment for noncompliance, following which he was re-trained on quadruplet anti-aircraft guns at the Eder dam. He briefly talks about the breaching of the Eder dam and the ensuing flood wave. Helmut Köhler recalls Russian and French prisoners of war manning flak batteries. He describes an unexploded bomb in his house on new year’s eve 1944. He stresses that Luftwaffenhelfer freed up soldiers for combat roles and highlights how the replacement ratio was almost 1:1. He mentions his first encounter with American troops in Gudensberg at the end of the war.
Creator
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Harry Ziegler
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-03
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:59:29 audio recording
Language
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deu
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKohlerH170303
Spatial Coverage
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Germany--Kassel
Germany--Eder Dam
Germany--Gudensberg
Germany
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
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Civilian
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Temporal Coverage
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1943-10-22
1944-03
1944-12
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
childhood in wartime
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
firefighting
Luftwaffenhelfer
prisoner of war
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/773/9293/PWatkinsJ1801.2.jpg
23a737b72e514fe88268be4fdbef9f76
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/773/9293/AWatkinsJ180802.2.mp3
7707459bd57b1cac29e841380e02be32
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Title
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Watkins, Snogger
John Watkins
J Watkins
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Watkins (b. 1924, 1624229 Royal Air Force). Initially a ground personnel wireless operator he volunteered and flew operations as a wireless operator with 230, 240 and 205 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Watkins, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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SP: So, this is Susanne Pescott, and I’m interviewing Warrant Officer John Watkins who was a wireless op and air gunner for Bomber Command and Coastal Command. I’m interviewing today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at John’s home, who was referred to as Jack during the war and it’s today, the 2nd of August 2018. So, first of all, thank you John for agreeing to be interviewed today.
JW: Quite happy to do so.
SP: So, John do you want to tell me about what you did before you joined up? Before the war.
JW: Yes. Well, before I was in retail. Men’s retail in Rotherham. In 1938 or ’9, the Air Training Corps was formed in Rotherham, 218 Squadron with librarian, Chief Librarian Broadhead I think they called him who was made CO. And there was about eighteen of us with a little Air Training Corps badge and so that’s when the 218 Air Training Corps Squadron was formed. Just after that we all got uniforms. Now, that was a very proud moment because we had the Church Parade and I’ve still got a photograph of that where there’s the commanding officer is first and I, being tall was just behind him. We were really proud to be the beginning of 218 Cadet force, RAF Cadet force in Rotherham. From, at that particular time it was 19’, 19’, oh ‘39, ’38, ’38, ’39. It was when the Rotherham and Sheffield Blitz was on. That means when the Germans were really flattening big buildings and well, all that went through in the Blitz and I at that time was only seventeen or eighteen but I was a fire watcher. So, if any of the, any of the fire bombs dropped we had a bucket of sand. We had to put it on it and shovel them away. It was scary to do that. Very, very scary. But I joined this Air Training Corps and that’s where I, because before this I used to be making model aeroplanes and I was very interested in flying right from the beginning. And so, when they said, ‘Do you want to join?’ I thought, ‘Right. I’ll go for interview.’ And that would be 1940, I would think I joined in I had to wait a while after they consider everything but I wanted to be in aircrew and very pleased to learn Morse and arms drill, marching and all the rest of it. So I was quite experienced by the time I did get, joined in in the RAF in 1942. Do you want any more now? So, I’ll cut it from there.
[recording paused]
I suppose I’d better, just a minute I’d better start off with, they called all the aircrew up to Blackpool to do their initial training. Blackpool saw all the, all the boarding houses were filled with trainee aircrew. So that’s where I first did the marching and the learning of, well, I’d already started learning Morse because I knew I wanted to be a wireless operator air gunner. Anyhow, so I first went to Recruitment Centre at Cardington, February 26th 1942. And then from there I went to Padgate at Blackpool. That would be August. We had to wait. They didn’t call me straight away. My father, I used to say, ‘Has my papers come yet? Has my papers?’ But I went to Padgate in August the 14th 1942. Then I went to the Signals School at Yatesbury in Wiltshire. That was in December 1942. That’s where I first started. It was quite easy there because as I say I could read Morse before I went there but then from there this is when I first went to Number 5 Group, Grantham, Lincolnshire which was Bomber Command, and it was the Headquarters of 617. Number 5 Group. This was in June the 24th 1943. That’s when the, that’s when the raid was on and that’s when I first met 617 Squadron and I said, ‘Well, what is, what’s the first job?’ And the first, as near as I can remember the first job was with two senior wireless operators that had been in the Force some time and regarding the raid, the Dambuster raid. And that was April, in May 1943. Now then, I asked what my first job was at number 5 Group, Grantham and they said, well when, on this raid they will be flying with, you know the Dambusters raid. But number 5 Group they don’t want the aircraft to contact 5 Group at Grantham, because if they did, if they were attacked while they were on this raid and they contacted 5 Group they’d send some bomber and just flatten the Headquarters of 5 Group. So, they said we want you to, three of us all together. Two senior ones and me as a junior, and you had to take radio receivers. The crews had been instructed to contact us which was in the middle of a field between, between Scampton and Grantham, and we had this, we had these receivers and if they got into trouble, any of these bombers, they had to contact us. We’d got special, special sign, call sign. Then we would contact Grantham, 5 Group by telephone. So that was one way of preventing them stopping the raid by clearing the head Group at Grantham. That was, as I say I was in Scampton 617, April 26th ’43. Funny thing, I was in, I was actually at Scampton about four or five months and it was the exact time when the raid was on. I’ve got that on my official papers which said I was there but I was a very minor, a very minor helper but I was very proud to be there. Now then, after that we had to go to Number 4 Radio School at Madley near Hereford to complete the flying. The flying part of the signal, of the radio and that was in July and August 1943. So, from, from 617 Squadron I went over to Madley near Hereford and so then after that I’d done all the wireless and flying part. I went to Number 10 Gunnery School at Barrow in Furness in September 25, ‘43 to do the gunnery course. And on January ’44, that’s when I’d done all the gunnery and got my, got my [pause] I think I’d got the gunnery course finished. I went to the Personnel Disposal Centre in January the 16th 1944. And then to Dispersal Unit because we were sent there from, from there to Canada. Now, we went and I’ve got the draught number, draught 867, Royal Mail Ship Andes. And we were sent over to Canada and the USA. Now, this ship was built for the Mediterranean. A flat-bottomed thing which was built for, I think it was six hundred chaps and there was four thousand of us in it going across the Atlantic in January 1944. I think it should be ’43 that. No, it isn’t. It says —
SP: Yeah.
JW: But anyhow, I can’t quite read that. So —
SP: That’s January ‘44 that. Yeah.
JW: Yes. Right. So, from there, when we get over to Canada we went up to, went up to Montreal, just as a transit camp. And then from there they sent us down to New York. From New York by train. New York, Boston, Baltimore, right the way down Maryland. Right to the bottom, to Miami. Miami in Florida. And that was quite an experience because they took ten days to get down and we were dressed in Royal Air Force blue, and we used to, we were stopping at every other station and meeting all the Americans. Anyhow, from there, from, from Miami they sent us over to Number 111 Operational Training Unit at Nassau in the Bahamas. Now, that’s where I went training on Liberator bombers and Mitchell bombers. We did our training there but this was with Coastal Command. I was four months all together training with the depth charges and gunnery and all that in Nassau. That was quite an experience because in those days nobody had been to Nassau. Only the very wealthy people. Now then, that was in? What date have I got down here? I think ’44. Somewhere, near. Anyhow, I was there for four months. Then I came back and went to reception at Harrogate on June, June ’44. So I was four months, I think in, in training in the Bahamas. And from there I went to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Killadeas. That’s, that’s Northern Ireland. This was August the 8th ’44. So, it was on 131 Operational Training Unit. You see VE Day was the 8th of May ’45. Anyhow, this was ’44. August 9th ’44 and when, this was in Ireland on Lough Erne where we were trained on Catalina Flying Boats, and later on to Sunderlands but I had a very lucky experience there. On this Lough Erne the course to convert on to flying boats from, from ground Liberators and Mitchells. It was about eight weeks the course. Now, I went on this course, enjoying it too and then halfway through whether or not it was the good food in America I don’t know but I got boils on my bottom and I couldn’t sit still to send my Morse on the keys. So, I had to come off and go into dock to have these boils treated. Nurses chasing me around with kaolin poultices, red hot to put on your bottom. Didn’t like that bit. Anyhow, I went in to, in to this dock and I was in there for two or three weeks and they cleared them. Came out and looked for my crew, and this was lucky part on my part, very sad on the other part. They set of from Enniskillen, North Ireland, Lough Erne. They set off to India across the Bay of [pause] Is it Gibraltar? Bay of Biscay. Bay of Biscay. Set off from there. Got across the Bay of Biscay. Went to Gibraltar. From Gibraltar they went to Sicily and that’s as far as they got because they crashed in to Mount Etna in Sicily and they all got killed. All my mates got it. So, boils in some respects saved my life. But it was a very sad occasion because I’d just got used to them. Anyhow, I found a new crew. Got a new crew and did what they did by training fully and getting, leaving Northern Ireland across the Bay of Biscay, Gibraltar, and then to Sicily, only we didn’t hit Mount Etna. We went straight on and down. Down to Habbaniya, I think. I can’t remember the names but we ended up at Karachi in Northern India, and that’s where we did a bit of supply business flying from, from there. I was with 240 Squadron this. Well, it would be one of two squadrons 240 and 205, and then 230 Squadron. They’re all, they were all Coastal Command [pause] Have a little finish and then I’ll probably —
[recording paused]
JW: 205 Squadron at Redhills Lake, Madras. From Karachi we went down. This was 1945. We went down. That was from, from Karachi, 205 Squadron at Redhills Lake, Madras comes next. That’s the south of India, and we were stationed there in March ’46, I think it is. Anyhow, then we were doing supply from Koggola. We got sent from Madras which is, that’s interesting too because Madras, there was Redhills Lake there. I had an operation, and I said to a chap, he was an Indian surgeon. I said, ‘I’ve been to Madras. Redhills Lake.’ He said, ‘Oh, they’ve built a big either hospital or something similar at that place near Madras. Oh, I could go in to, I could go in to details about being there in Redhills Lake. We went on leave to the only gold field in India. They called it Kolar Gold Fields, and I even got a chance to handle some of the nuggets. The big chunks of gold. They wouldn’t give me one but I went down there and they said, ‘Do you want to go down here.’ I said, ‘Oh, I’ll risk anything.’ So we, two of three of us said, so but they said, ‘Before you go down, and if you want to get out for a big cave down there you can get out and go around if you want. But we’ve got to warn you as soon as you go out and go into this cave if you don’t get into the middle where the water is coming up in the spring where the oxygen comes you’ll pass out.’ So, we did it anyway. We went and rushed to, rushed to this spring and sped over it just to say we’d been in. That’s why. Little daredevils. So that was, that was from Redhills Lake. Now then, they sent us from Redhills Lake at Madras over to, to Ceylon as it was. That’s Sri Lanka now. Koggola. Now, Koggola was stuck on to, stuck on to, [pause] What’s the capital of Ceylon? Galle. The capital of Ceylon used to be Galle. Well, Koggola Airfield [pause] Lake or whatever it was at Koggala was next to Galle in Ceylon. That was June in 1946. We slipped, we’ve missed a lot out, but anyhow and then that, that is what upset me most of all partly because from Koggala we did a lot of supply taking nurses and supplies over to Singapore. Seletar was the airfield on the station. Seletar. And we used to take these supplies but the thing that upset me terrifically was to see some of the lads that had been prisoners. Terrible to look at and to see them suffering. Some of them didn’t make it. They died before. But we, we took them back to Ceylon. That’s right. And that was the run that I did quite a lot. Between, between [pause] Seletar, which is Singapore back to Koggala in Ceylon. I’m just trying to think when we changed over to Sunderland Flying Boats. I think we did. I can’t remember the exact date but we did because I remember taking, they were a much bigger plane, the Sunderland than the Catalina because we were in a Sunderland Flying Boat when they said, ‘Right. You’ve got to take these supplies to Hong Kong.’ And so, we’d never been to Hong Kong before so we set off with these. I don’t know if we’d got nurses with us or just supplies, but we set off to go to Hong Kong and it was quite, I’ve got all the distances and times that it took us. I’ve got them in another book. But this time was the first time we went to Hong Kong. I shall never forget it because we’d not been there, well we hadn’t been on Sunderlands very long, but we gets going to Hong Kong and I remember the, it was in between mountains. There’s mountains on either side, and the wireless reception was terrible but we managed to get. I didn’t think we’d get there because Bob said, ‘Well, we’ve very little fuel so it looks like I’m going to have to put it down.’ And the thing that I can remember I was in the wireless operator’s unit just next to him, and I looked out of the window at the front and there was a big pier. A big pier stretching out right, as it got near the water. A big pier. I thought well, this is it. We’re going to crash into that. But somehow, he twisted it and missed the pier but we ended up on the beach. All the floats went through the wing, and the propeller got bent and all the rest of it but we were, we didn’t get killed. And I remember that, and thinking, well why did it happen? And I found out why it happened. Firstly, we hadn’t got enough fuel to turn round and land going out to sea because that’s where you were going. You’d got plenty of water to land. But we hadn’t, and that’s why we ended up in the beach. But I had to leave him. I had to leave Bob. We, we went with another aircraft back to Ceylon and Bob stayed there to give an account of why and that’s the last time I saw him. In 1946. And so I was very sorry. But two or three years ago I’m reading the Indian Ocean Flying Boat Association newspaper and it says, “Bob Cole is now living in Clacton on Sea.” So, I thought, marvellous. I’ll ring up. So, I rang him up, I said, ‘Bob, what are you doing?’ He says, ‘Who’s that?’ I said, ‘It’s Jack Watkins, your wireless op.’ He said, ‘Never. After all these years.’ As I say, it was only four or five years ago from now. He said, ‘What are you doing?’ I said, ‘I’m coming down to see you.’ So, I went out to see him and we were nice slim young chaps when I left him and now he’s got a big fat paunch and I’ve got a little belly. But anyhow, we had a lovely chat together and oh it was great that and now, even now when I told him that, I rang him up, I said, ‘Bob, guess what I’ve been flying in a little Tiger Moth that you used to train in before you got — ’ ‘Oh, no.’ He says, ‘I’ve not been in one of them for years.’ I said, ‘Well, I met a person that’s got one and he’s took me around, and I went right around with him right, very, very near to Scampton where the Red Arrows were,’ I said. ‘And the chap, the pilot said, ‘I’d better not get too near or the Red Arrows are there and they’ll chase us off. But it was a really good experience, and so I just had that but I thought you’d like to know about that. Anyhow, I’ll be seeing you before long, if I can get my mates to bring me down. I’ll come down and see you again.’ That’s it. So, it was lovely that. So that’s as near as I can go for a minute. Yeah.
[recording paused]
So, it was in August 1946 when I went for home enlistment. A Transit Centre was August. August 1946, and then I went to 10 Personnel Dispersal Centre on September the 12th ’46 and that was where I first started off from. From Blackpool on the, I’ve forgotten the name of the place now. Blackpool. Padgate. Started off at Padgate, ended up at Padgate and glad to get home then. Of course, I was BBC Sheffield, Rony Robinson, he goes on from there, said, ‘Oh, what did you do then?’ Well, I’d, this Rony Robinson started the, I said, ‘Well, when I got home,’ I said, ‘I remember coming to Rotherham Station and I’d got two kit bags. One with my flying kit in and one with my ordinary kit in, and —' I said, ‘I felt a bit miserable because the other pal that I’d been, met in Ceylon came, and he’d got, all his family met him. Well, I’d finished with my girlfriend so there were nobody to meet me but I carried these up to Wortley Road where I used to be living, and so I thought thank goodness I’m home.’ But, one of the first things that I thought of straight away, I’m finishing with marching and I’m going to buy myself a motorbike. So, I thought. So, I bought this little motorbike and I thought I’d never had one before, and I thought let’s see how this darned thing works. So, I sit on it, and it was slightly uphill. Kicks it up, and twist the, and twist the throttle and it started moving. Now, I was on it and it was going and I thought this is marvellous. I’m not pedalling and I’m going uphill. And I’m going on like this and I kept on going, and the chap was walking alongside me and said, ‘Why don’t you change gear?’ I’d never thought about that. But it was good to, to have something different. But then of course Rony went on, ‘So what happened then about your marriage business?’ I said, ‘Oh, that. That fell through. I was married for ten years and then I had to throw in the sponge, and I was ten years on my own then.
SP: So John, that was great to run through your sequence of events.
JW: Yeah.
SP: All the time within the RAF.
JW: Yeah.
SP: So, after you joined up and you’d done all your training —
JW: Yeah.
SP: You talked about sometimes, you were, the time you were at Scampton and it was the time when the Dambusters raid was on.
JW: That’s right.
SP: Did you know something special was happening there? Was it —
JW: Well, I knew it was. I didn’t know exactly what was happening but I was used to bombers having been on Liberator bombers which are very similar to the Lancaster and I knew there was something going off and I knew, but we didn’t know. They kept it very hush hush. I remember seeing Guy Gibson and N***** nearby but, because we were right in the middle of it when they were, before they put the big bombs for the Dambusters they used to be, they used to be loading these big bombs up with chains, and we were in a billet only a few hundred yards from it. And I thought crikey if that’s breaks. But no. As for the raid itself, apart from when they told us they didn’t give a lot of detail. They just gave us the call signs and if you heard from this one pass it on straight to 5 Group at Grantham. And, oh no, it was exciting really but scary for a young man. As I say if anybody said they weren’t scared they must have been tougher than me because you never know what’s going to happen. You’re on edge most of the time. But no. I enjoyed, I can’t say I enjoyed it but I remember little things that’s nothing to do with this. My mother came to see me while I was on there. No. I’m, I’m skipping a bit. This was in Blackpool. She came to see me in Blackpool there and of course there was, it was full of aircrew training and she was a very delicate little woman, my [laughs] So, she said, ‘Right. Are we going for lunch?’ Well, the only place you could go to lunch was Old Mother Riley’s Tuck Shop, and they’d even got the knives and forks chained to the table because the lads used to [waltz ] them. But no. To get back to Scampton. We did it. It was very hush hush. We didn’t know a lot. I knew that I had to do a certain job, and that was listen for messages and pass them on to, they was all in different call signs, but you’d pass them on to 5 Group. And as I say after that I seemed to be taken up with being posted as I say to different places.
[recording paused]
Yes. The hut that they told us to go to was to, was in the middle of a field out in nowhere really between Lincoln and 5 Group, or Scampton and 5 Group. I can’t remember. It’s in a similar, similar area. But instead of, the reason they sent us out there was because they’d been told to contact us in this little hut. They give us different call signs, and then we’d pass the message by telephone to 5 Group in Grantham. What the main thing was, they didn’t want any of the bombers to contact 5 Group because that was headquarters, and if they’d have gone straight away, they’d have sent a bomber and just cleared the lot. So, as I say it was exciting for, for a young chap and baffling and all this, but we got, we got through it all right.
SP: An important part to play during that time.
JW: It really was. It seems, it seems trivial now but at that time it must have been important for them to tell us to go there and send us in between Scampton and, and Grantham. Between them two. We were there so they would be contacting us there. And then if they wanted to bomb where, where they could hear where our call sign, one we, we’d have got it then. Yeah. But no. No, it’s, it’s a long, long time ago.
SP: And what was life like at Scampton air base at that time? So obviously we know —
JW: Well —
SP: The Dambusters. What was life like on the base?
JW: The base was, well, it’s hard to say because everything was in short supply. I mean food and things like that. We got served, I remember queuing up a meal once. K rations they called it. K rations. They were just like these Ryvita biscuits. Two or three of those and that was it. But even in Blackpool before we went to Scampton the food was poor and we used to send it home. We all had a biscuit tin with bits of cake and things like that. There were more mice in them boarding houses. They used to be running on the top of the bed. We used to knock them off. In your greatcoat there would be mice because we used to keep food in the bedroom. But things were a bit tight there. But there are certain things that that I remember that I wish we’d got. Dried egg. It was powdered egg. I loved it. I don’t know if you can get it or not now. We’ve gone off the subject now so you’d better get back to —
SP: That’s fine. It’s the really interesting stuff. It’s all those bits of information.
JW: Well, you see things that, that are, different altogether and especially when I’ve just skipped over the Blitzes of Rotherham and Sheffield there. That was really frightening because I remember being in the Tivoli, Tivoli was a little cinema in Rotherham and this was the night when the Blitz was on too, and I’m sat there with a young lady of course, one of the neighbours, and we were watching this film. All of a sudden boom, boom, and the seats were shaking like mad so I said, ‘Well, we’d better get out of here.’ I said, ‘Because it looks as though it’s getting nearer and nearer.’ So, we gets out, and there was a little passage down the side of the Tivoli cinema so, I said, ‘Come on, let’s get in this passage.’ We just stood in this passage and whoof it shot us right to the other end of the passage. And I said, ‘We’d better get home now.’ And there again when you get home, some had these Anderson shelters which were like corrugated steel in the garden. But otherwise, you could have what they called, I forget what they called them but it was a great big steel plate the size of the dining table, a big dining table with all wire meshes. Meshing underneath and that was your air raid shelter indoors, and you could put blankets and things on and creep in there every time the siren went. You know, you can’t realise that. Kids wouldn’t realise that if the sirens were whoo whoo whoo. You’d know that that’s the time that they were coming. The German bombers were coming. And when they had done with their business and they’d gone you could hear them hmmmm, then the all clear would come. It would be one solitary note [humming] That means you could come out and put the fires out, or see to what wanted doing outside. You don’t realise that. People don’t, don’t realise that can’t remember the Blitz. But there was some, I’ve forgotten most of it but I remember in the middle of Sheffield was a massive big pub come hotel called the Marples and it was filled, the bottom was filled with all spirits, whisky, wine and you mention it and that went up, and that. Oh, it was, it was terrible. All broken down and on fire. I remember my wife worked in, in the Co -op’s stitching sewing business in West Street and she said, ‘Well, we just got ready and went to work from Tinsley,’ where she was living. And when they got to work the policeman said, ‘What are you doing? Get back home.’ You know. So, they sent them back home then. But you forget. It’s a good job you do forget really. But not altogether. Same as this that I’m coming back to when they’re going to close Scampton down. I don’t like it because I think they should, they should leave it open for British heritage because it’s such a, well it was such an important thing. It was just from the Dam raid to, it saved England anyhow, I think. And I mean they asked me before what, what do you think about it? I said, well I don’t know that much about it because, but I do know that if, If I said to the government, to whoever in charge, ‘We’re going to shift Nelson’s Column. We’re going to move it.’ There would be an uproar. Or if we said we’re not going to bother with Flanders Field with all the poppies. It’s only a field with poppies in so why should we worry? So, enough said.
SP: Ok.
JW: Right. Rest now.
SP: Ok John, so we’ve covered about Scampton and, and the air raids.
JW: Yeah.
SP: At Sheffield and Rotherham.
JW: Yeah.
SP: Do you want to tell me a little time about you time when you’d done your training in Canada and you were travelling through America? You said you were in your RAF uniform.
JW: Blue yes. Yeah.
SP: How were you treated by the Americans? What was that journey like?
JW: Well, really from, from New York that was an experience and all because remember we were only eighteen, or, nineteen, year old. You’ve heard about New York but then you come and you have a short period, just a short period in New York. I remember going around Broadway. Well, everybody’s heard of Broadway, and you look up and the buildings are so high that they seemed to join at the top. Of course, you’d nothing like that in England. So, it’s all busy busy. I can’t remember much about it but it wasn’t, there was no black out. No blackout in America. And when I left England there was rationing. You daren’t strike a match in the dark because, ‘Put that light out there.’ Because it was the ruling there. The bread was brown and it was dark. You don’t get white bread, and you couldn’t get sugar and I remember the rationing was butter, sugar, lard, marg, bacon, eggs, cheese. All those were rationed to nearly nothing. But then to get from that to America. I told Rony, I said I’m going to start a book about. “From Hell to Paradise and Back.” And I said, I said, he said, ‘Well, why don’t you write it?’ I said, ‘Because it’s all the past and nobody’s interested.’ And I keep thinking now about Scampton. It’ll be all in the past and will be forgotten like the poppy fields. We don’t want it to be forgotten. Not for the kid’s sake. And anyhow, coming back to America I looked at New York and Broadway. I’d seen that, and quickly just going past and then we set off down and I should have to look at the map to find out which places we stopped at because it was a ten day journey from New York down to Miami in Florida because we kept stopping and he used to say, ‘Right. You’ve got a half day here.’ So, we would go out and we’d meet the people of America and they were marvellous. Lovely. Because they knew what we were suffering in England and oh all the food, The stuff like that. Everything was really like paradise at the time of England. That was why I thought I’ll write a book, “From Hell to Paradise,” and come back. But anyhow, when it gets to the bottom the thing is that you remember about the train there in, in America and you go to the back compartment the first thing I said, ‘I’ll have a tea please.’ So, what did they bring me? An iced tea. I’d never had iced tea in my life. So, I had that but go back to the compartment and look down the line from where you’re coming, and you can’t see the end. It goes, goes on and on and on. Miles and miles. But every time you stopped and went to see, you learned something about the people. In young men. I mean, I got on a bike there once and I said, ‘Where’s are the, there’s no brakes, where are —’ ‘Oh, you just back pedal for the brakes.’ And things like that stick in your mind and they were lovely people, and they really looked after us. And of course, when I got to Miami, I must tell you this, being a shy and bashful RAF aircrew chap, I met a girl down there and she was a WAVE. What’s a WAVE? A WAVE is an American Wren. They call them WAVES there. So, I met this girl called Peggy and I were very gentlemanly, no messing about and she took us all around to nightclubs where all the names like Bing Crosby. I don’t know who they were but they were right up there. Took us round there, took us round a race, a dog racing track. Never been to one of those. Everything was bigger and, and elaborate. Anyhow, she was a nice lass and I’d, I’d split with my girl, because I’d heard that she’d been playing away and confirmed that that was true. So I said, ‘Right. Well, that’s it now. We’re finished.’ I said, ‘You can be my girlfriend.’ ‘Oh, that would be lovely.’ So that’s what I met when I’m was going down to Miami. Then I had to leave them. Had to leave them behind. You get on a little boat to go to Nassau in the Bahamas, and that was a lovely trip because the waters there were pure and clean, and you could see all the little fishes like humbugs, all different colours. I remember I dropped a pair of sunglasses down there. Right down to the bottom. Down and down and down. Oh, ever so far. Oh, that’s that then. That’ll cost me a fiver for some new ones. Anyhow, this young lad says, ‘I’ll get them boss. I’ll get them.’ And he starts swimming down and I looked at him. Well, I could swim a lot having been on Catalinas and, and he got them back for me. ‘Right. Thank you.’ So, I gave him a penny and he was quite happy. Anyhow, we go from there with these flying fish at the side of the boat going from, from Miami to Nassau in the Bahamas. Now, Nassau at that time was when the Duke of Windsor, he’d finished with, he didn’t want to be king and he threw in his hand and went with Mrs Simpson and they went to Windsor House in the Bahamas. In Nassau. We didn’t see much of him but he was there at the same time. And anyhow, we got there after seeing, oh I’d better tell you this but it’s, it’s a bit frightening, and it’s a bit rude and it’s a bit all sorts. But I’ll tell it you and I hope you’re, nobody’s offended but it’s true. We gets there and just before we pulls up in to Nassau the MO came out and he said, ‘Now, look here lads, just sit down there and look at this — ’ video. Not a video. A film. And he says, ‘It’s a bit horrible but you’re going, going to watch it because I’m going to force you in to it.’ He says, ‘Now, there’s some beautiful young ladies on this island here. Well, I’m going to tell you now, after you’ve seen this film, if you carry on with what you think you’re going to be doing good luck to you, but don’t come to me complaining later.’ And he showed me this film of VD, and I’m not kidding I thought right that’s me finished with females forever. It was disgusting. They got a little umbrella and stuffed it up your willy and brought, ooh I thought. Well, it put me off, and it put quite a, most of the chaps off but one or two did. They did succumb to these wishes of the, but partly the females because they were asking you, well I’ll not go in to more detail because it’s rude that. But anyhow, that was one other thing but everything was lovely there. That’s why I think when I came home, and I got these boils on my bottom I had such wonderful food there. And that, I think it upset completely but anyhow the other thing I’ll tell you, one little instance because really it would be uninteresting to anybody else but in these big Lanc [pause] in the American —
SP: Liberator.
JW: Liberator bombers, we were. There was all sorts of different, everything different on the radio and the guns. The guns were .5 cannon, and there was blister, blister turrets underneath so when you landed you were in between the two wheels, big wheels and it nearly set on fire. But I remember one instance during training. We used to be, we used to be armed with depth charges and all the rest, because there was some sort of submarines and things in the, in the area. I didn’t know about but we used to go on to training trips and if we didn’t see anything on the way back there was a wreck, and the idea was to, for practice reasons the navigator used to have to drop one depth charge near this wreck and the air gunner, wireless op/air gunner used to have to lift up the Perspex on the back turret, lean over with a big camera and take a film of exactly how near we were to this wreck. And the one that I remember was I had got this turn. ‘It’s your turn to go take the photo.’ So, I gets this dirty great big camera, leans out on the back and says, ‘Right. Ok. I’m ready at the back.’ He goes, ‘Right. We’re taking the run. Right. Bombs gone,’ and I expected to take a film of the, how near to the wreck it was, and all of a sudden the water splashed up. We were only about a hundred foot up but the water came right up and I never got a film because the navigator had pressed the wrong button and instead of pressing it for one, he pressed the whole lot. So there were about six or eight depth charges went and we got splashed. But we just said that it must have been an electrical fault. It couldn’t have been our fault because — but that’s just an instance that sticks in your mind. You see when I’m talking like this, one thing leads to another. We talk about sea planes, Liberators, Catalinas and Sunderlands. Now, you think when you land a Lancaster or you land a Liberator you come down gently and it’s either a good landed, a bumpy one, or straight but you’re down and that’s it. You open up and you get out and go for a coffee or something. When you land a seaplane you land on water which little, few people know that water is as hard as concrete when you land and you can feel it under your foot, because it’s only like the thickness of the hull. But you land there and you look for a buoy floating. It might be rough, but you look for it and there’s always got to be two of you in the front turret to get that buoy because you have to have a big boat hook. And then you see this buoy with a loop on top and you’ve to grab the loop and pull it. The engines are still going. Pull this towards you, and then get a big thick rope and stuff it through this loop on the buoy, bring it back and wrap it around a bollard and hold it tight and then give the thumbs up to the pilot to cut the engines. And it’s quite an ordeal that to do that especially when it’s wobbling about. I nearly lost one of my best mates. We were both in the front doing that, and he was doing the boat hook and I was getting the rope to wrap around this bollard, and all of a sudden he slipped and he went down there. So, he’s hanging on, he’s gone under the water hanging on to this arm and I’m hanging onto the bollard with the rope there and he nearly, he nearly got killed really. But anyhow he gradually pulled himself up there. Anyway, we never spoke. We never spoke either of us just put my thumb up to the pilot to cut the engines. And that was that and we never mentioned it again but in two minutes he could have gone. That’s it.
[recording paused]
SP: So, we talked about the different planes that you flew in, in Coastal Command. The Catalinas and the Sunderlands.
JW: Yeah.
SP: Do you want to tell me a little bit about the role of Coastal Command? What, what you did on a day to day basis?
JW: Well, it depends which squadron you were with and where but generally speaking the, the role of Coastal Command was to escort the convoys that in my opinion from America to England because we depended on America for food and for lots of things, early days. And it was a known fact that the Germans had got terrific patrols and submarines that were just up and down, and just pinching all the trade and sinking all the troops. We were losing a terrific lot of ships and things, but we also saved a lot because we, we managed to depth charge a lot of the submarines. I don’t know how many. I can’t tell. I did know but I’ve forgotten now. And apart from that Coastal Command was on, what’s the name [pause] for any Bomber Command or anybody got brought down in the sea they would land and pick them up which was, we did quite a lot of that. And it was important to know that, that they were there. But my main job was on the South East Asia Command. That’s from Madras at first. Redhills Lake, Madras to Singapore. Seletar at Singapore. And it was supplying, in fact they called the squadron 240 SPUI Supply at first, to supply nurses and equipment, food etcetera to, to Seletar at Singapore. And then we did that for quite a while and then they transferred us to Galle or Koggala which was in Ceylon. We were doing the same, same trips from, from there, from Ceylon over to Seletar, Singapore. Down the Malacca Straits, and searching for Japanese submarines.
I don’t know if we escorted any ships across there but mainly it was supply. And as I say it’s hard to remember now, but from there how it finished up was we got, we went on to Sunderlands from, from Catalinas. They were carrying more things, but there’s also different things to learn about them. We were still, though we were experienced we were still training. Every time you changed from a Catalina to a Sunderland you’ve all the different radios, different guns, and different procedures. Mind you the Sunderland’s a lot bigger because there was a galley there where we could cook. There was a big, big difference altogether. In fact, the Japanese and Germans used to call it a flying porcupine there were that many guns in it. But as I say when you think about different planes you’d to learn about different, the Catalina has got a blister on the side with guns. We’d to learn the different guns and the different radios. Apart from knowing the, there was one, one thing that I do remember. We were coming back from, from Singapore to [pause] I think it might have been Redhills or it might have been Koggala, in there, and the navigator, the navigator had given Bob the course, and somehow, mind you the navigator was mostly always drunk. He liked brandy. And Bob says, ‘Jack, will, will you just check your directional finding aerial.’ It’s like a round aerial that you twist around to find out where the beacons were sending messages from and it’s tells you where to go. Well, the navigator had given us a course to go so far, and if we’d have kept to that, if we’d kept to that course, we should have missed Ceylon and we should have been in the middle of the Indian Ocean. But we used this, this direction finding aerial, put it right and landed. But just a little thing like that could have, we could have ended up in the middle of the Indian Ocean and wondered why. But these are things that’s apart from searching your eyes, it’s no wonder my eyes are bad because you go from, from Ceylon to Singapore you don’t just sit down and listen to the radio you’re searching all the time for submarines and anything that is abnormal that’s going to attack our shipping and —
SP: Would that all be by sight or was there any equipment that would highlight if there were submarines as well?
JW: Well, it was really, it depended on when. I think there was certain, certain equipment there but I can’t remember much about it. Mainly by sight. That’s what I say, my eyes used to, we used to have to had to scan, scan the horizon. Scan the sea. I’ve spent hours and hours looking at that for periscopes and things like that, but that’s a long time ago. I forget about it. But I was pleased when it was all over and they said, ‘Right, you’re going. You’re going to, you’re going back to England.’ You couldn’t believe it at first. Little things come to mind then. The actual week when I was demobbed there was a lot of snakes and things out there, you know and we used to [pause] I remember this time when it was near going home time. We went, we’d been to the mess, we’d been drinking a lot, and we always carried a revolver and always live ammunition, and we get back to the mess and they were all like palm trees, you know. They weren’t wooden things. Palm they used to, the huts and billets were. And I remember going in and seeing this snake on the top and it was only about, it might have been a couple of yards long. Maybe a yard and a half, and it was a silver one and we’d been drinking and we were just happily shooting at it to knock it off like. So, you know, as we shot it down when we did shoot it down I always thought snakes went slow like that but this one was brmmm and it was out of the door. So, the following day I’m going around getting all my things stamped for going home and I came to this office of the hut where they had to stamp my forms and just as I get there, I was on a bike at the time and a dirty great snake, a whacking big thick thing going across the road just as I can see today. I thought crumbs. I nearly fell of the bike. I might have done. I jumped off anyhow. Gets into the hut where I’d gone to have this thing stamped. I said, ‘Crikey, I’ve just had an experience. There was a snake. I think it must have been twenty foot long as that thing.’ ‘Oh, you don’t want to worry about that,’ he says. ‘That’s, that, that were only a rat snake. They only eat rats.’ I said, ‘I don’t care what it was,’ I said, ‘Because just a few days ago we found a little snake on the top and it were all silver coloured. Silver coloured and we were shooting at it. We knocked it down. It shot off like.’ He said, ‘It’s a good job it didn’t come to you. They call them silver krait, and It’s the most poisonous snake in the country, so just these little things that stick in a small mind.
SP: Yeah.
JW: Now then —
SP: Did you have the same crew while you were out there?
JW: I did.
SP: Did you? Yeah.
JW: Until that last time when we crashed the Sunderland in Hong Kong and then we split up. But on odd occasions we used to fly with different, if they were short of a chap we’d —
SP: Yeah.
JW: If there was a wireless op.
SP: Who was your crew then? Who was your main crew?
JW: My main crew was Bob Cole. I’ve got pictures of us here. And —
SP: So —
JW: With the crew who they were.
SP: Yeah.
JW: Well, these were wireless operators.
SP: Just tell me who your crew were.
JW: This is all my crew.
SP: Yeah. What were their names?
JW: Bob [Vinton] there. Frankie [Burke]. Jock, I forget his name. I’ve got it written down somewhere. And he was the skipper. Hawkey, Flight Lieutenant Hawkey. Pete [Dakus] and I forget him now. He was, he was from down south. I’ve got them written down. It might be on the back of these. And I think he was an Aussie and that’s me. I don’t know where —
SP: So that’s your pilot.
JW: That’s Flight Lieutenant Hawkey and, well, I’ve got them written down somewhere. It might be on the back.
SP: So, John, obviously the crew called you Jack but everyone else had nicknames on crews. What was your nickname?
JW: Oh, yes. Well, as I say, well when I was on the crew it was still Jack but when I came home here and joined the RAF Association well that’s when at one of the meetings we’d been on parade and marching for some Armed Forces Day I think it was. But when we came back, we get to outside the Town Hall and the mayor came out and about she said, ‘Now, chaps if you’d like to pop upstairs for a coffee or a brandy.’ Well, you know who was first upstairs. I was up there like a shot and the girl serving the coffee she was really lovely and I looked at her. I said, ‘You are really lovely you are, aren’t you?’ She said, well, she didn’t mind, and I gave her a little kiss on the cheek. Now then, the mayor was just at my side. I didn’t know she was there so I thought I’m on a charge here. I’m going to get in trouble. So, I turned to her and I said, ‘I wonder, is it appropriate that I kiss the mayor?’ And she said, ‘I don’t see why not.’ So, I thought how lovely. So, I got out of that, and I thought that was the end of it but it wasn’t really because the lads, some got on to that and I admitted I might have kissed one or two other ladies that were expecting to be kissed, or well I was liking to be kissing t them but anyhow that was that side. And then we come to a, a service in the local Minster and it was where the armed, there were the Military Wives Choir and brass band, and some other thing., some other group all in church. Full congregation. Also, before the service starts the mayor stands up and said, ‘Jack will you please stand. John will you please stand up and I want to present you with something.’ So, she presented me with this Scotch plaid carrier bag and I thought what’s all this about? So, I opened it and there was a, a lovely tie with a Sunderland Flying Boat printed on it and there was a gold watch that fits in your top pocket with a Sunderland Flying Boat on it, and then there was this mug. A lovely coloured mug with a Sunderland printed on it and they’d put, “To Snogger John Watkins,” just because I’d happened to kiss the mayor. But I thanked them very much for it and since that of course they all put my name on that as Snogger. And at first, I thought well I don’t know if I like this or not. It makes you feel a bit common and the rest of it. But then they printed a “Snogger” number plate for the back of my scooter. I said, ‘I’m not putting that on. You can just go and put my, do another one and put RAF 240 squadron and I’ll put that on.’ So, I filed the “Snogger” one away but since all this talk about different places and where you’ve been and what you’ve done, I’m afraid Snogger’s come to the front again so we’d better keep Snogger in, but I suppose I shall be getting somebody’s fist in my, in my face one of these days and saying, ‘Well, that’s my young lady so keep off.’ I’ll take it anyhow. Will that do?
SP: That is brilliant. So, John, I just want to thank you on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archives for sharing your stories with us today.
JW: Good. Thank you very much. I have enjoyed it.
SP: It really has been a real honour to meet you. Thank you.
JW: Yes. It’s nice to see you darling and you’ll get a kiss before we go so come here. Yes. Thank you. Lovely. Thank you darling.
SP: Ok. Thanks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John 'Snogger' Watkins
Creator
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Susanne Pescott
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-02
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWatkinsJ180802, PWatkinsJ1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:02:00 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
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Bahamas
Canada
Great Britain
India
Sri Lanka
Singapore
United States
England--Bedfordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Wiltshire
Bahamas--Nassau
Bahamas
Italy
Italy--Mount Etna
India--Chennai
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
John Watkins was working in retail in Rotherham and in 1939 he joined 218 Squadron ATC. He joined the RAF in February 1942 at RAF Cardington, and did his initial training at Blackpool. In December 1942 he did his wireless training at RAF Yatesbury. His first role was as a ground personnel wireless operator at RAF Scampton in 1943. He next went to RAF Madeley to complete his aircrew training and then to 10 Gunnery School in Barrow in Furness. In early 1944 he went to the USA, via Canada. He was posted to 111 OTU in Nassau in the Bahamas to train on Liberator and Mitchell aircraft. On his return to the UK he converted to the Catalina and later the Sunderland flying boats. His original crew set off from Northern Ireland to fly to India, but due to a medical issue he didn’t fly with them and his crew were killed enroute. He finished his career flying on operations for Coastal Command in India and the Far East. He was personally upset by the condition of the ex-prisoners of war of the Japanese he and his crew ferried from bases.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942-02-26
1943-06-24
1944-01-16
1945
1946
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
205 Squadron
5 Group
617 Squadron
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
B-24
Catalina
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
ground personnel
prisoner of war
RAF Barrow in Furness
RAF Cardington
RAF Madley
RAF Scampton
RAF Yatesbury
Sunderland
training
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1762/30389/PSmithJJ2001.2.jpg
5af2792c8819245dd9c0ec38c9afc30c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1762/30389/ASmithJJ201227.2.mp3
0a602ddff875a9df408937afc9059a58
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, John James
Jim Smith
J J Smith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Jim Smith (b. 1929, 2481850 Royal Air Force).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-12-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Smith, JJ
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: So, my name is Nigel Moore. I’m recording this interview on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln. It’s Sunday the 27th of December and I’m in my house in Bushey, Hertfordshire. I’m going to be interviewing John James Smith, known as Jim who happens also to be my father in law. Jim was born in February 1929 in the village of Gretton where he still lives. Gretton is in the northern part of Northamptonshire and very close to the border with Rutland and Leicestershire. It is also located at the top of the southern escarpment overlooking the valley of the River Welland. So, Jim, tell me about the first ten years of your life before the war. What was life like in the village?
JS: Very quiet. You know it was a small village. Only about six hundred people and we just carried on a farming life really. Though with Corby so close Corby was a steel town making tubes. In fact, it made the tubes for the Pluto and most of the men either worked on the farm or at Corby in the steelworks.
NM: So, what about schooling in your family?
JS: Well, we all went to Gretton Primary School and at thirteen, I got a scholarship to go to the Corby Technical College which is about five miles away. Used to have to cycle that every day. Night, night, night and morning.
NM: So, what, what, what changed in village life when war broke out? Because you, you were ten when war broke out
JS: Yes, well —
NM: What changed?
JS: Well, suddenly about forty children came on the train from London and they all went, issued out to various people. And the people opposite us, an elderly woman she had two boys and she said, ‘Oh, no. I want two girls.’ But she had to have two boys. Two boys. And these children hadn’t seen any green fields at all. They came from inner London and hadn’t seen the countryside at all and the first night, first day the two, two boys went down to the river and on the way they came to across a field of sheep and it started to rain. So they tried to get the sheep to go in the hovel but the sheep wouldn’t cooperate with them so they took their coats off and put them over two sheep, two of the sheep and got wet through themselves. They came back up and the woman said, ‘Where are your clothes?’ They said, ‘Oh, we couldn’t get the sheep to go in the sheds so we put our coats on the sheep.’
NM: So, did, did you village children mix at all with the evacuees?
JS: Yes. We did. Yes. They brought two, two teachers with them but one of them quickly disappeared and the other one he was a bit odd. He used to cycle around the village with his tin helmet on and his trilby on top of that and he was an odd sort of a character he was. So we suddenly had these thirty or forty children came into the school and of course we, our education suffered. And the men in the village came up to the school and dug trenches in the garden so we would have somewhere to go when, when the air raids started but of course we never, never went in the trenches at all and we all, the school issued, was the issuing centre for the gas masks. So we all had our gas masks from there and most of the people in Gretton had their gas masks from there as well. And the children, the very small children had a container with the, they put the children in and that was their gas masks.
NM: So did you all have air raid drills at school?
JS: Not really. No. We, they built blast walls around the cloakrooms and we went and sat in there but they were the only air raid precautions we took.
NM: Did you get the Anderson shelters to dig in your gardens?
JS: No. But there was a few in the village and they, they built above ground shelters but nobody ever used them. We used, we used to sit under the table downstairs during the alarms, when the alarm went off. And we had two radio, aircraft air raid sirens. One was at Uppingham which was always going off that was. We didn’t take any notice of that one. And then the one at Corby and we always took notice when that went off. But there were some ack ack guns at Corby. But they only fired about once or twice. Corby itself was a steel town and had Bessemer converters which were open to the skies and it’s a wonder really that they didn’t come and bomb them. But we had smoke cannisters all around Corby and they were lit and the smoke came out when the air raid sirens went.
NM: So, were there air raid wardens in the village?
JS: Yes.
NM: Firewatchers.
JS: Yes. Fire watchers. My father was an auxiliary policeman and there used to be about four or five of those used to walk around the village every night telling people to put the fire, put the light out if their blackout curtains weren’t good.
NM: Can you remember the night that Coventry was bombed in November 1940?
JS: Yes. We, we could see this glow in the sky and we wondered what it was. The planes were droning over us and in fact one was shot down but you could see the clouds of, well the sky was lit up with the explosions over Coventry and this plane was shot down by a Defiant and it was shot down over the village. We were outside and we saw all these tracers going over and in to the German plane and that landed, well crashed about five miles away at another village. All the people were killed in it.
NM: So, at this point you weren’t under the table in the kitchen then.
JS: No.
NM: You were out watching.
JS: That’s it [laughs] it was mid-evening that was. So it wasn’t, we hadn’t got up and gone under the table. We were standing outside and you could hear the drone, the planes droning over all night long. But that was the only action we saw.
NM: Were you aware that night that it was Coventry?
JS: No. No. We didn’t know what it was. We could see this glow in the sky and we didn’t, somebody said, ‘Somebody’s getting it.’ And we didn’t know who it was. But I had an uncle. He lived in Coventry and he said they went out and stood on a hill overlooking the town, city and they saw this parachute coming down and three or four of them said, ‘We’ll go and get him.’ And they went running towards it and suddenly found themselves on their back. It was a land mine. But no, it was very disappointing the next morning. Very depressed to see the city in ruins.
NM: So, you saw German aircraft that night.
JS: Yeah.
NM: What about other occasions during the war? Did you see any German aircraft at all during the war?
JS: Well, we didn’t, no. There was a lone raider, raider came over during the day and that machine gunned some farmers in the, in the valley but it was shot down near Peterborough. And one night we were all laid in bed and we could hear this plane going over and mother was saying, ‘That’s one of theirs.’ And father said, ‘No, it’s not. It’s one of ours.’ All of a sudden the bedroom lit up and he dropped about forty incendiaries in the valley below us and luckily all in the fields. If that had dropped on Gretton which had a lot of thatched cottages it would have been really serious. But the next morning I rode down to the valley to the site and collected a lot of bits of incendiary bombs. I’ve still got one somewhere in the house.
NM: So, were you the only child there or did you all, all the boys —
JS: No.
NM: From the village go down and all the girls as well?
JS: There were a lot of boys went down but you know it was scattered over two or three fields and we collected all the bombs, bomb bits we could find. All the fins at the bottom of the bombs. Some of the, one or two of them fell in the river itself but they didn’t go off. Or didn’t do any damage.
NM: So, did the Corby steelworks themselves get any damage at all during the war?
JS: No. That was very lucky really. No. Only once. Had got a new post office in Corby which hadn’t been opened and the bomb, one bomber came over dropped a series of bombs and one of them dropped outside the Post Office and opened the Post Office up for them. But the steelworks itself didn’t have a bomb dropped on it at all which was unusual because, you know these Bessemer converters going straight to the sky.
NM: Was there an occasion when one crashed in to the steelworks?
JS: That was an American.
NM: Oh, ok.
JS: A Lightning which, at that time I’d gone to the Corby College and we were at lunchtime and we heard this bang and looked up and the Lightning was coming down. Falling out of the sky. The pilot had parachuted out and it fell on, fell on the steelworks but fell in place with nothing there. Didn’t do any damage. And the pilot, he landed at Great Oakley which was about three or four miles away.
NM: So you’ve no idea why. Why he crashed.
JS: No. No. The plane exploded. Came from [pause] what is it? I can’t think. I can’t. About, an airfield about five miles away. We were surrounded by airfields. American and British.
NM: Yeah. So, in fact, the nearby airfields to Gretton were Cottesmore, Wittering.
JS: Yeah.
NM: North Luffenham and Spanhoe.
JS: Yeah.
NM: Can you give some description of the aircraft traffic you saw during the war? Those airfields.
JS: In the early days of the war they, at North Luffenham and Cottesmore they’d got Lancasters. No. Hampdens and Whitworths and they came over. Took a long time to get over from one side of the, one side of the sky to the other. Just limped over but we didn’t really see many. We saw more of the Yanks when they came to Spanhoe and they had gliders there and they used to take them up. When they got over Gretton they used to let them go and the gliders used to glide down to Spanhoe Airfield. And during, during the D-Day landings and also during Arnhem the roads were all closed round, around Spanhoe and we saw the gliders going off and saw masses of Flying Fortresses from various airfields, you know. Quite a few airfields and Flying Fortresses. One Sunday morning I was at work and suddenly there was a big explosion and one of the Flying Fortresses had failed to take off. All the crew got out, got out and the plane exploded and that evening I cycled over to Deenethorpe which was the airfield and got a belt of .5 ammunition. The police were there but they didn’t say anything to us. I flew away with, I come away with about a dozen .5 ammunition which my father took the bullets out, tipped the gunpowder out and lit that and that just flared and then he put the cartridges in a fire and they went all they detonated. Blew up then. So that was only the only real excitement we had.
NM: So, can I take you back to Spring of 1943 when the Lancasters with 617 Squadron were practicing —
JS: Oh yes.
NM: Over the Eye Brook.
JS: Yeah.
NM: Although, of course you didn’t know who they were at the time.
JS: We didn’t, we didn’t know what it was even. We didn’t know there was a reservoir there but you know in those days we didn’t know what was happening in the next village let alone five or six miles away. We could see these Lancasters coming low over about five miles away and as they come over they fired Very lights at them and we certainly knew afterwards that they’d been practicing at the Eye Brook Reservoir for the Dambusters. That was one of the two reservoirs they trained at.
NM: So, how often did you see them? Was it frequent or was it —
JS: Well, we saw them for about a week. Every night for a week or so and then suddenly they stopped and we realised afterwards what they were all about.
NM: So, they’d come over at night would they?
JS: Well, it was, it was dusk sort of thing. We could see them. That was the other side of the valley from us. So we could see them coming over and these Very lights being fired as they went over.
NM: So, moving back to 1944 again and D-Day and Arnhem. Did you see the gliders go off as it were?
JS: Yes.
NM: [unclear]
JS: We saw a lot of gliders going off. We didn’t know anything about it off course until afterwards. All the roads were closed and you weren’t allowed anywhere near Spanhoe. And the gliders went off and of course they didn’t come back, a lot of them. There’s a memorial at Spanhoe showing all the people who died on the various raids. On various operations that took part.
NM: It must have been an impressive sight. Was it?
JS: Yes. It was. Yes. Most impressive was the Flying Fortresses. Masses of them going over. I don’t, as I say there were four or five aerodromes around us and there were masses of these Flying Fortresses flying over. We didn’t, didn’t know at the time what it was all about but you soon found out of course.
NM: Now, during the war of course you went from being a ten year old schoolboy to sixteen by the end of the war. So, tell me —
JS: Yeah.
NM: Tell me about your development during, during those six years.
JS: Well, at thirteen I left Gretton and went to Corby Engineering College and I used to have to cycle there morning and evening. We didn’t see a lot. We saw all these smoke cannisters but never saw them lit. But one night, one evening when I came home from school the ground was covered in these plastic, white plastic pictures of foil. We didn’t know what that was about but of course it was practising the radar and they were all over the place they were. Had bits of foil all over the hedges everywhere.
NM: So, this was Window was it?
JS: Yeah. Windows. Yeah.
NM: So, at Technical College you were training for what? What was your —
JS: Engineering training.
NM: Engineering training.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. And of course, most of the people there went in to the steelworks or part of the steelworks.
NM: So, by the end of the war you were still going to that Technical College.
JS: Yes.
NM: What, what can you remember about VE Day itself? What happened in the village? How did you feel about it all?
JS: Well, everybody was very pleased of course and they had a big bonfire in one of the fields and a greasy pole. I’ll always remember that because most of the men would try and climb up this greasy pole and not succeeding. And in the end they pushed this chap up with two poles under his feet. And when he got to the top and got the flag he got a small pig and piglet and that’s the only real thing I can remember really about the VE Day.
NM: So after the end of the war I know you did National Service. What happened between you, the end of the war and you doing your National Service?
JS: Well, there was one other thing with regard to the Americans they decided, well with their, with our Army cadets they said they’d take us all up. And they took two Dakotas. We sat in the Dakotas. No seats of course. We sat on the floor and they took us up on one Sunday afternoon for about half an hour and flew around and then we had our tea up there. Had cakes which I hadn’t seen before and it was very very very good of them. And then when the rationing was on you had to cycle to Corby every Saturday and get cakes which weren’t available in the village.
NM: Was there any other impact of rationing on, on the village life?
JS: Well —
NM: Were allotments and home grown —
JS: Yes.
NM: And all that?
JS: There were a lot of allotments there taken over. My father had what? A ten pole. Twenty pole. Which was quite a big bit to dig and grow mainly potatoes. And then we had a Pig Club in the village and well a lot of people kept a pig in the back garden and every Sunday they used to go around looking at everybody’s pig and having a drink in everybody’s cottage and they finished up finally the worse for wear. My grandfather, he kept a pig and as I said we had some people from, lived in Coventry and when they used to come down my father, my grandfather used to hang their hams up in the, in the living room and when they, when they came down from Coventry they always wanted to take one of the hams back. So, in the end when he knew they were coming he used to take his hams down and hide them in the other room.
NM: So, when did you graduate from Technical College?
JS: Well, when I was fifteen, fifteen and a half, sixteen and started work straight away and spent five years as an apprentice. And at the end of the five years, on my twenty first birthday when I got on top rate of, for the money I had my calling up papers. I always remember when I started as an apprentice. I got twenty nine and nine pence a week for forty seven hours and when I’d just got on top rate, on the same day I got my call up papers to go on National Service and spent two years, well eighteen months but due, due to the crisis, Suez I think it was it put up two years. But I, I was lucky. I got posted to an aerodrome near Rugby which was only about forty miles away and I used to come home every weekend.
NM: So, you did your National Service with the RAF.
JS: Yeah.
NM: From 1950 then when you were twenty one.
JS: Yeah.
NM: So how come you ended up in the RAF as opposed to the Army?
JS: Well, we had, we went to Northampton to have our medicals and while we were there they had an Army and a Navy and an RAF chappy there and they asked you where you wanted to go in. I said the RAF. They said, ‘Why?’ I said ‘I don’t like marching.’ That was good enough. I got in the RAF. But a lot of, a lot of them went in the Army which they didn’t like at all. And one or two got in the Navy. But most of us went in the RAF and I went to Padgate to do National Service training and after six weeks had an interview and they sent me to a training college. At Weeton I think it was. Near Blackpool. And we had an eighteen month course in six weeks there and after we came out of there they posted me to Church Lawford near Rugby and I spent the rest of the time there.
NM: And what was your role at Church Lawford?
JS: Well, I was on the maintenance side of the earth moving equipment and I used to have to go out to various sub-contractors to sign off the work they had done and I always used to arrange for it to be on a Friday so that I could go straight off to, on leave for the weekend.
NM: So you could go back home for the weekend.
JS: Yeah. I was, by that time I’d been made up to a corporal and there was a, you had a security patrol every six, seven weeks and you had to spend all the weekend on the camp. So I used to arrange it so that on the Friday I used to be away from there to another civilian place. One of them was at St Albans and we stayed at the RAF camp there at, at somewhere. On the De Havilland site I think it was. And I used to arrange so that I went on Friday. So, they used to, when they used to ring up seeing where I was they’d say, ‘Oh, he’s on detachment.’ And by that time you’d be on detachment for seven or eight weeks before I’d be sent somewhere else and they realised I was still on the camp and so I didn’t do it. I only did security patrol once.
NM: So you spent the whole two years at RAF Church Lawford did you?
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
NM: Were, were any other trips involved? Did you get any flying at all?
JS: No. No. I didn’t see any aircraft at all while I was in there. Oh, I went, I went, they sent me up to Acklington to repair a tractor. RAF Acklington and they said, ‘We’ll take you to an airfield in in Birmingham and a plane will come and pick you up.’ So, they dropped me at this airfield. All the hangars had, all the control places windows had been smashed. I stood there wondering why, what was going to happen and all of a sudden this Avro Anson dropped out of the sky, picked me up and took me up to RAF Acklington. And after repairing the tractor I come back on a lorry all the way from there to, to Rugby. Stayed overnight at, in Doncaster. At the airfield there.
NM: So at the end of your National Service you went back to the, back to the steelworks?
JS: Yes. Yes.
NM: At age twenty three. Yeah?
JS: Yeah. I went back and they put me straight in the drawing office so I didn’t actually go to do any work in the workshop itself. I just stayed in the workshop, in the drawing office for six or seven years. Then started doing various, started building various things outside and I used to go and look after those.
NM: Such as? What were you —
JS: Well, the —
NM: Mostly involved in?
JS: Well, the most, the biggest one was the ropeway aerial ropeway which was six miles long from Rothwell to Corby. And I was a clerk of works on that so I oversee the work on that to get that working.
NM: So, this was to try and get, is this is to get the ironstone from the quarry —
JS: Yeah.
NM: To the steelworks.
JS: Yeah.
NM: This six mile ropeway.
JS: They were going to build another big dragline but that, and this ropeway was going to provide the iron ore for it but they cancelled it. The big dragline. So really it was surplus to requirements the ropeway. But it stuck around for four or five years and then they cut it all up.
NM: So, you were involved in all the, how many quarries were there around Gretton and Corby that you were working with?
JS: Oh I don’t know. About eight or nine I should think. Yeah. With large draglines in four of them and various smaller ones in the others.
NM: And how long did you take, take on that role for?
JS: Until, well until I was made, after about six, seven years I was made engineer in charge of maintenance of all the various areas and I stayed there until I was made redundant in nineteen [pause] I don’t know what it was now. No. I can’t remember.
NM: Was that when the steelworks closed?
JS: Yeah.
NM: Right.
JS: That was ’59, I think.
NM: And what did you do? What happened after that?
JS: Well, I got a job. Well, I knew one of the chaps in the steel, in the tube works. Used to go on the same manager’s mess tables as him and he said, ‘What are you going to do when you’re made redundant?’ I said, ‘I’m going to go on quality assurance. Come back to haunt you.’ Because he was in charge of quality assurance for the two works and he rang me up and said, ‘Were you serious?’ I said, ‘Oh yes.’ He said, ‘Well, Lloyds Register of Shipping want somebody and would you be interested?’ So I said, ‘Yes. Yes, I would. Yeah.’ So, he said, ‘Go to Birmingham and see the chief, chief surveyor there and he’ll take you out to lunch.’ And I went to the Birmingham office and he said, ‘Oh, I’m too busy to see you today,’ he said, ‘Can you start next week?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ And that was my interview for Lloyd’s Register of Shipping. Somebody else had joined from another area at the same time as me. He said, ‘How did you get on at the interview?’ I said, ‘I didn’t have one.’ He said, ‘Oh, I had terrible one,’ he said. ‘They grilled me for about an hour,’ he said [laughs] So mine was just, ‘Can you start next week?’
NM: So, your last part of your career then was with Lloyds inspector.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. Lloyds. Yeah. And then I had a stroke when I was fifty nine and so I didn’t work after that. That’s been thirty odd years ago now.
NM: So that just about covers everything.
JS: Yeah.
NM: I had on my list.
JS: Yeah. And me.
NM: Have you got anything else to —
JS: I don’t think so. No.
NM: Add to that.
JS: No.
NM: When you look back during the war what was your overall impressions of growing up between those formative years of ten to sixteen and then with such major events going on around you. What was your —
JS: We didn’t really know much about it. As I say we lived in a village and we didn’t really know what was happening in the next village let alone what was, what was happening in the world. I remember on D-Day I was doing a trig lesson and I put in the top of the page, “D-Day.” And that’s really all I knew about it. So it didn’t really affect me much at all.
NM: Ok.
JS: Yeah.
NM: Very good. Thank you very much.
JS: Thank you.
NM: We’ll finish the interview there. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John James Smith
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nigel Moore
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-12-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:34:46 Audio Recording
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASmithJJ201227, PSmithJJ2001
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Description
An account of the resource
John Smith grew up near Corby surrounded by aerodromes so he was used to the sight of aircraft. He observed Lancaster aircraft practicing for the Dambusters raid over Eye Brook Reservoir. He also witnessed glider practice and was impressed by the sight of the Flying Fortresses flying overhead. He also witnessed the German aircraft flying overhead to bomb Coventry and witnessed a German aircraft shot down. After the war he spent his National Service in the RAF at Church Lawford.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-11
1943
1944
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Northamptonshire
England--Corby
England--Coventry
England--Warwickshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
617 Squadron
animal
B-17
bombing
childhood in wartime
Defiant
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
evacuation
home front
incendiary device
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
P-38
RAF Church Lawford
RAF Spanhoe
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3436/PJohnsonGL1703.2.jpg
b0e04e09829fa1165d2691d7c4cc044c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3436/AJohnsonG150325.2.mp3
a07acf5f6a792924aa50c3e5fc765f07
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Johnson, Johnny
George Johnson
G L Johnson
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Squadron Leader George Leonard ‘Johnny’ Johnson MBE (1921 - 2022). Johnny Johnson flew operations as a bomb aimer with 97 Squadron from RAF Woodhall Spa and with 617 Squadron from RAF Scampton. On 16/17 May 1943 he took part in Operation Chastise to attack German dams with bouncing bombs. He served in the RAF until 1962 and then had a career in education. He was given an honorary doctorate by the University of Lincoln in 2017.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-01
2015-03-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Johnson, G
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AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is George Johnny Johnson. Mr Johnson was the bomb aimer on Lancaster AJ-T that took part in the Sorpe Dam raid on the night of May the 16th 1943. In this recording Mr Johnson recounts his memories of the events leading up to the attack, the attack itself and the events following the attack.
GJJ: As part of our training we used the Derwent Dam in Derbyshire and also the Uppingham Lake in what was then Rutland. But the Derwent had its towers and we could use those for sighting with our home-made bombsight so that our base pins were in line with the towers before we dropped our practice bombs. These were the twenty five pound smoke bombs. We also used Uppingham Lake but Uppingham Lake didn’t have any towers so they put up a couple of flagpoles for us, the authorities, and we used those as sighting devices along with our three pin, three prong bombsight. And it was that that created the similar action that we would have on the night of the operation which we didn’t know at the time of course. On the Uppingham we had to fly down the lake and sixty feet was the maximum. And we were going down there, along until we came to bomb dropping. Up and down and then up and back again. I came down again, again, right along the lake until you had the same dropping point and if you were lucky or, perhaps I should say if you were accurate your bomb dropping point would be good on all occasions. The night before the raid we were summoned into a meeting room and for the majority of the crew it was the first-time meeting Barnes Wallis and he showed us a film of his development of the bouncing bomb. And we saw this being bounced across the water as it was released, initially from Wellington aircraft but ultimately from a Lancaster aircraft. One shot that he did show in the film showed one bomb that went a bit haywire and chose its own route after it had hit the water and came straight back to the beach where they were all taking film and so on. So, that of course meant they had to get out of the way a bit sharpish before it got to them. They were, of course, inert bombs they were dropping but that sort of weight in concrete can do an awful lot of damage if it hits somebody. So, there we are. That was the film that he showed us and that explained how it was going to be necessary to drop this bomb so far away from whatever the target was going to be. We didn’t know what the target was going to be and he didn’t mention dam when he talked about the, hitting the target. He just said when it hits the target it would roll down and then explode. On the Sunday afternoon, about three o’clock, all crews were called into the operations room for briefing and man what a briefing that was. Up to that time we had no idea what the target was going to be. This was the first indication. There was a model there of the Möhne Dam, there was a model of the Sorpe but apparently the model of the Eder hadn’t been completed and so it wasn’t there. A big map on the wall showing two outward bound courses and one homeward bound course. And the people there — the AOC Sir Ralph Cochrane was there, the station commander Group Captain Whitworth. Gibson of course was there. Barnes Wallis was there, and the senior armament and engineering officers and the dear old Met man whose job was made so much easier by knowing it was going to be a brilliant moonlight night and that was going to extend not only from our take off but to our target and to our coming home. So, for once he was able to give us a correct forecast of what we could expect and when we got to the target. And Barnes Wallis explained what the targets were. And how wrong we could be in our estimations. He explained the three dams that we were going to attack. The Sorpe, the Möhne and the Eder. He also explained the difference between them. The Möhne and the Eder were very similar. They had towers and they were accessible for a head- on approach. The Sorpe of course was different. It had no towers and it was so placed in the hills that it was difficult, if not quite impossible, to make a head-on attack and the only one of those three that was defended was the Möhne. Gibson carried on with the briefing and he explained how the take-offs would be arranged and which, how many crews were taking each part. We were part of five that were scheduled to attack the Sorpe Dam. The Sorpe, of course, had to be different. No towers. Different mode of attack. And our attack had to be by flying down once, the hills on one side aiming to have port engines over the dam and flying along the length of the dam. And on that run, estimating to drop the bomb in the centre of the dam. Shortly after ten o’clock we took off from Scampton. We flew low over Lincolnshire, certainly, no more than a hundred feet, out into the moonlit North Sea. A beautiful sight. Lovely moon and a perfect, quite calm sea. And we headed for the Dutch coast. As we crossed the Dutch coast we were aware, or Joe was aware that the gunners there would be well aware that this single aircraft was coming. They’d recognise the noise and had all the other aircraft over it already, the other four, over already they’d be ready for us. And so he went down. He picked up two sand dunes and went down between those two so that we avoided the flak that they would have loved to have thrown at us. At this stage, Bill Ratcliffe, in fact he had been throughout the flight coasting the engines as much as possible so that we could make up speed and make up time having taken off so late. We, in fact, arrived there about nine minutes later than the scheduled time. We carried on across Germany into the Ruhr and eventually arrived at the Sorpe Dam. Mist was beginning to gather outside but over the target it was perfectly clear. Brilliant moonlight. And as we approached we noticed that on the side, on the hills from which we were supposed to be making the attack there was a church steeple and so Joe used this as a marker. From above that he could line the aircraft up as best he could, aiming to get the port outer engine along the dam itself and then go down to height. Because we weren’t spinning the bomb we were carrying, we were going to drop an inert bomb, we were not governed by the conditions on which that bomb had to be dropped. So, the height and speed equally didn’t matter and if I wasn’t satisfied I called dummy run. In which case we went up again and came down again. If Joe wasn’t satisfied he just pulled away and left me to call dummy run and after about the seventh — sixth or seventh of these dummy runs a voice from the rear turret said, ‘Won’t somebody get that bomb out of here?’ And I realised how easy it was to become the most unpopular member of crew in double quick time. However, we pressed on, trying to get the drop exactly right. There was no point in having gone through all that training and flown low level in bright moonlight over Germany and particularly into the Ruhr area in not getting, doing the job that you had gone to do and doing it to the best of your ability. So, we went on trying. And on the tenth run, in the meantime Joe and I hadn’t said anything to each other but I’m sure we both realised that the lower we got the less forward travel that bomb would have before it hit the water and the lower we got the easier it would be to estimate the dropping point. It was pure estimation. There was no bombsighting involved at all. So, on the tenth run we were down to thirty feet. And when I said, ‘bomb gone,’ — ‘Thank Christ,’ came from the rear turret. It was a question of nose up straight away otherwise we would have been into the hills on the other side. And so I didn’t see the explosion but Dave did in the rear turret and he estimated that the tower of water went up to about a thousand feet. Well, as you can imagine sixty five, six and a half thousand pounds explosive being exploded at a depth of twenty five feet is going to displace a hell of a lot of water and it’s going to go upwards as well as outwards. So that was quite understandable. But he also said that as it came down some of the downflow came into the turret so he thought he was going to be drowned as well as knocked about by us so and so’s at the front. But he managed to get back to normal. We circled and we discovered that we had crumbled the top of the dam for a distance of about ten yards. Barnes Wallis had told us at briefing that he estimated it would need at least six bombs to crack that dam because of its construction but if we could crack it the water pressure would do the rest and judging from the amount of water in that dam I’m quite sure he was right. However, that was only the one bomb and what we couldn’t understand was that because we were late nobody else was there when we got there and nobody else appeared whilst we were there. And this, the reason for this we didn’t find out until we got back. We circled, satisfied ourselves and set a course for home and then had perhaps the most satisfying part of the whole trip. Route out took us straight over what had been the Möhne Dam. It was just like an inland sea. There was water everywhere. We knew that it had been breached by radio broadcast but water was still coming out of the dam and this must have been twenty minutes, perhaps half an hour since the breach. We also knew that the Eder had been breached. Again, by broadcast. So we had at least the satisfaction of seeing some real results for the endeavours of that particular raid. After the excitement of seeing the result of the breach of the Möhne things calmed down but not for long. For some peculiar reason and I still have no idea why we found ourselves over a railway. Not only a railway but a marshalling yard and we were, in fact, over the Hamm marshalling yards, yard. And this, of course was the centre for the distribution of all the armaments that were made in the Ruhr to the various war areas throughout Europe. Not the healthiest of places to be in May of 1943. But once again Joe goes down and again a voice from the rear turret, ‘Who needs guns? At this height all they need to do is change the points.’ However, we eventually got out of the yard. After the marshalling yards incident we set course for home. We came back on the route that we came out on and as we were crossing the Zeider Zee, Bill Ratcliffe opened up the taps, paid in the speed so we could get out and away as soon as possible. So perhaps this is what he did and as we crossed the coast one of the gunners on the ground got a sight on us but Dave Rodger in the rear turret replied promptly with his guns and that was the last we heard of the attack. As we crossed the North Sea, eventually we could see the welcoming sight of the Lincolnshire coast and so we were able to head over for our home base at Scampton. I’m not quite sure that we went, that we went via the cathedral. I don’t recall actually having seen it but it wasn’t unusual to head for the cathedral when you crossed the coast so that you knew when you were actually almost home. We could always see the cathedral by the red light on the top and that was a welcoming light and told us we were close to home. And so we got back to Scampton. Now, Scampton was still a grass airfield and so all landings were a bit lumpy but ours was more than a bit lumpy it was really bumpy and we were starboard wing low. And the flight engineer, looking out of the Perspex said, ‘We’ve got a burst tyre skipper.’ And so we were, we taxied around to take off to the dispersal and the aircraft went off for inspection. And when the inspection team came back the leader said, ‘You guys ought to think yourselves very lucky.’ He didn’t use ‘very’ but never mind, that will describe it. He said, ‘That shot that you felt and heard went through the starboard undercarriage nacelle, burst a tyre enroute. It then went through the wing and ultimately landed in the roof just above the navigator’s head.’ How lucky. But once again we’d got away with it. Thank you, Lady Luck. That had been our night. After debriefing we began to realise that there seemed to be an awful lot of people that hadn’t come back. And it came, transpired that of the nineteen that took off, sixteen had taken part in the actual raiding since three had had to come back for various reasons. Of those sixteen, eight did not come back. Three of the crews escaped but were taken prisoner and the rest were killed. Fifty three aircrew of our squadron were killed on that one operation one night and we lost eight aircraft. That was a devastating reaction and we heard that in the operations room, when the final news was known, Barnes Wallis actually cried and said, ‘I have killed all those young men. I’ll never do anything like that again.’ But Wing Commander Gibson managed to say to him, ‘No Barnes. You didn’t kill those young men. Without you that raid could never have taken place anyway.’ He said, ‘But whenever we take off on any of these raids, we know there is a chance that we won’t be coming back and those people probably went off with that thought in mind.’ Of the nineteen aircraft that took off three had to return early, five were lost before the attacks and eleven made attacks on the dam. Of those eleven one was lost during the attack, two were lost after the attacks and eight aircraft returned from making attacks on the dams. In total fifty three aircrew were killed, three were taken prisoner and eight aircraft were lost.
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AJohnsonG150325
PJohnsonGL1703
Title
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Interview with Johnny Johnson. One
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:19:33 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Andrew Panton
Date
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2015-03-25
Description
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George ‘Johnny’ Johnson was the bomb aimer in Lancaster AJ-T flown by Joe McCarthy during operation Chastise 16th of May 194. He discusses the attack on the dams and the events before and after the attack. He describes training over the Derwent Dam and Uppingham Lake. He describes the challenges of the Sorpe Dam in contrast to the Möhne and Eder dams. He describes the tensions of getting the bombing run correct and the nervous words of the rear gunner. Flying home they flew over the Möhne dam and they were able to witness the devastation of the aftermath of the attack. They also flew over the Hamm marshalling yards and again Johnny describes the nervous details of that event. Johnny refers to the realisation of the heavy losses of the operation and how Barnes Wallis actually wept when he heard how many crews had been lost.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Derbyshire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Hamm (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Sorpe Dam
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1943-05-16
1943-05-17
Contributor
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Julie Williams
617 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bouncing bomb
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
operations room
RAF Scampton
training
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3437/Johnny Johnson f.1.jpg
75f475f67cd0f645f9c483552b3f49d5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/252/3437/AJohnsonGL170801-01.1.mp3
47f6fef0f79c70bd4f5a5abf59f715a2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Johnson, Johnny
George Johnson
G L Johnson
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Squadron Leader George Leonard ‘Johnny’ Johnson MBE (1921 - 2022). Johnny Johnson flew operations as a bomb aimer with 97 Squadron from RAF Woodhall Spa and with 617 Squadron from RAF Scampton. On 16/17 May 1943 he took part in Operation Chastise to attack German dams with bouncing bombs. He served in the RAF until 1962 and then had a career in education. He was given an honorary doctorate by the University of Lincoln in 2017.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-08-01
2015-03-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Johnson, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DE: Right. So, a little introduction and we’ll get cracking. So, this is an interview for the IBCC with Johnny Johnson. It’s the 1st of August 2017. We’re in Bristol. My name is Dan Ellin. Also in the room is Professor Heather Hughes, Alex Pesaro and John Sexton. Right.
HH: Thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed today. What we’d like to do, if possible, is to start off talking about your earliest memories of a childhood on a farm in Lincolnshire from 1921.
JJ: Fine. As you say, a farm in Lincolnshire. I was born in a small village called Hameringham, near Horncastle and, as such became a Lincolnshire Yellowbelly which, I gather, was so called because of all the frogs in the fens area of the county. However, I had the misfortune for my mother to die before, a fortnight before my third birthday. And the only time I can remember seeing her was in her hospital bed when we were waiting at the bottom of the stairs to go up and to see her. And my father was talking to somebody else, a stranger to me at the bottom of the stairs so I went over and joined them. I was the youngest of six children and when my father told this other individual who I was his response was, ‘What another?’ To which my father said, ‘Yes. He was a mistake.’ I remember quite clearly my father saying that, even at that young age and I’m sure that is how he treated me from then on. He was, of course, a cut throat razor shaver and the razor sharpener, the strop, hung on the back of the kitchen door. If ever that strop came down and he wasn’t shaving I knew where it was headed. That was my shoulders, my back or wherever it landed. If I was out, on one occasion even, sorry, I had to go to the local elementary school in the next village, in Winthorpe. And had to walk down there and there came a time when we left Hameringham and moved over to the borders of Nottinghamshire to a small village of Langford just outside of Newark. And [pause] sorry, I’m thinking. The lady that we had as a housekeeper at Hameringham was a lovely lady, Mrs Smith. But she couldn’t move with us when we moved. And so my father advertised for a housekeeper in the local press and a, I’m going to say female, I wouldn’t describe her otherwise, that answered had two twin daughters. She came over with the daughters as a housekeeper and before long she became the second Mrs Johnson. They never [emphasis] agreed at any time and there came a time when I heard her say to him, ‘I’ll knife you one of these days.’ That really upset me. And why, I didn’t know why I did, I used to go and sleep with my father just in case she tried it sometime overnight. ‘Cause, when they had their rows she went in to the girls’ bedroom. My bed. My bed was on the landing. Living in the other half of the farmhouse. And so that was the way it went and it just went worse until eventually I was sent off to another farming uncle in Thorpe. Thorpe on the Hill and whilst I was away they separated. She went away and when I got back she was no longer there. That meant, amongst other things, that I came responsible, became responsible for looking after the house. So much so that all the cooking that I could do and so on.
HH: Were you the only child still living at home at that stage?
JJ: At that stage, yes but it went to the time when my sister, who was seven years older than me, had virtually been my surrogate mother to start with and she was in service with a family in the next, our next village, Winthorpe. They were moving and downloading at the same time so she came to look after her father and I have to say he treated her in much the same way as he treated me. Not by beatings of course but by the demands that he made. A daughter was to look after her father the way he wanted it done. When he wanted it done. And that was the way it had to go. So, yeah, I was at, as I say, to a local elementary school in Winthorpe and the head teacher heard about Lord Wandsworth’s Agricultural College in Hampshire, Long Sutton in Hampshire, bequeathed by Lord Wandsworth for the children of agricultural families that had lost one or both parents, and she applied on my behalf. And I had an interview and was accepted but my father said, ‘No. When he’s fourteen he goes out and gets a job and brings some money into the house.’ Head teacher wasn’t at all happy about that and in that village we still had a squire and she went to see the squire’s wife and told her the story. And the squire’s wife went to see my father and told him his fortune in no uncertain terms. How he was ruining my life, particularly of a better education and a much better chance of a decent living afterwards. And so, he said, ‘I suppose I’ll let him go then.’ Reluctantly. And it wasn’t because he felt he needed to but because he knew that if he refused and the squire’s wife went back and talked to the squire about it his job would be on the rocks without any trouble at all. And so, we got away with it and I went off to Lord Wandsworth’s College. What a place to go to. The first time I’d been away from home travelling from Newark to London. Met there by the secretary from the school and taken on to a train ride to Hampshire and then by coach to the college. In the junior school of course to start me I was eleven at that stage and the first time being means so many different boys from all parts of the world and not knowing really anything about anything.
HH: Did you speak strong Lincolnshire dialect at that time?
JJ: I did in those days, indeed I did. I did know and even though I also left so young when I left I still remember some of the dialect the local people used to use. And the one thing that sticks in mind is that when they met they didn’t say, ‘Hello. How are you? How are you doing?’ It was always, ‘How do my duck?’ and probably, ‘How do me duck? Are you alreet?’ That was the usual thing.
DE: It still is in some places.
JJ: At that stage the local people referred to our nearest town not as Horncastle but ‘Oncastle. I don’t know whether they still do. They may do. And it is the sort of thing which has stuck in my mind over the times and that I find too, useful these days in certain circumstances to introduce my talk, to whoever, particularly with school children which I do quite a lot of recently. But the sort of thing which I started there. Lord Wandsworth’s Agricultural College was a mix in that it was academic and it was also vocational. Those who could cope went through the academic side and the rest went through the — we had a large farm there and a good large garden. A big orchard. There was plenty of scope for vocational training. I managed to get through the school certificate. I say managed to get. In that you may remember you had to take eight subjects. You were allowed one failure but you had to get credits in at least one other subject for a pass. Then other things went on beyond that. I managed to scrape through and when we went back after the results had come out, back after the school holidays. Met by the headmaster who said, ‘Congratulations. How did you manage it?’ I said, ‘With difficulty sir.’ That was that. And I had, at that stage, ambition to be a vet but to do the vet’s course you had to have the, what was the word? Matriculation exam as well and you had to have a far better pass in the school certificate than I had got, in other words, to do that. So, I had to have a rethink. And I thought about being the park superintendent of a large London park. They’d got a very good garden section there. And I didn’t want anything to do with the farm. I’d had too much of that anyway. And so I went into the horticultural side and I learned quite a lot about horticulture in that time including, on one occasion, washing out the greenhouses with a nicotine solution. A very neat, tiny solution and my bottle, or my bucket, ran out and I went to get some more and as I mixed it I inhaled some of the nicotine. Oh, was I ever sick. Straight back to the hospital and in to the school hospital. And the orderly we had there -- next morning gave me a right telling off because he’d had to sit with me all night. He wasn’t sure whether I was going to live or not. So, I got my own back on him in that way but that was that. That was just a small incident in that. And so, I very much enjoyed the work in the gardens, the orchard and particularly in the greenhouses. And then as a job came up in the local park in Basingstoke and so I was interviewed for that and got it. And so I started my working life as a trainee assistant parks keeper and I was doing that. Whilst I was doing that I was billeted with a family in Basingstoke and one of the sons had his own Alsatian and my sister had always bred Alsatians. That was her real life and so I took Fred with me on holiday on one occasion and of course he took his dog. He and Lena, my sister, got to know each other and they got to know each other very well and it got to the stage where she said to my father they were thinking of getting married. And he said, ‘If you get married I shall kill myself.’ I said, ‘For goodness sake Lena he’s far too fond of life to do something like that.’ She said, ‘I know but if he did I would never be able to forgive myself.’ And that ruined her life completely. She never looked at another man after that.
HH: What happened to her? Did she stay at home with your dad?
JJ: Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. And she had got a job of her own in that during the war she was part of the ARP system. I’m not quite sure what she did. But she also became the village post lady and she cycled around on her bike delivering the mail to various places. And she kept that job for the whole of her working life apart from looking after him in his misery as well. From Langford the farmer himself died and his wife and son took over and eventually, during that time, my father got Scarlet Fever and was off work for up to six weeks and by the end of that or just before the end of that the wife said she was very sorry they couldn’t wait any longer. They’d have to appoint somebody else. So he had to get out and find more accommodation elsewhere and we went just up the road to the village of Collingham and we lived in Collingham from then onwards. Believe it or not in a place called Chapel House. It was a converted chapel but that was where we went for a while. And shortly after that, I don’t know how, my father became associated but he did, with a lady and her mother in another street in the village of Collingham. And eventually the mother died but the daughter then from selling the bungalow that they lived in used that money to help purchase the new house my father and sister had got and joined them there. And then again for some reason which I never found out she suddenly wasn’t there anymore. She left and that was it. And so there we were. A nice house. It was a nice house. It was semi-detached but four bedrooms and had every convenience. No, it didn’t [laughs] it didn’t have any conveniences. Gas central, gas lighting. No electricity. No hot water apart from the boiler attached to the fire and that was it. And so that was where we lived for some time. And then I was, having been at Basingstoke for almost a year, the war had started before I joined there. I thought I ought to be getting in to this. And basically, I don’t know why, but it was a personal hatred of Hitler and the terrible damage that he had done to this country in that time and I needed to do something. I needed to do my share about it. So, I volunteered for the air force in the June. But I didn’t want to be a pilot. I didn’t think I had the aptitude or the coordination to be able to do it properly. And I wanted to go on the bomber side and I knew that the bomber pilot was responsible not only for flying the aircraft but for the safety of the crew as a whole and I thought maybe I was a bit young for that anyway. So I didn’t want to be a pilot but the selection committee thought differently and they recommended me for pilot training.
HH: Can I ask why you wanted to be on the bomber side?
JJ: I think — to get my own back on Hitler. That was the only way I could put it at that stage. Eighteen years old. That sort of thought was prominent in my mind and then I had to wait. This was in the November 1940 and I volunteered in June but got through the interviews but then the medical came. I had a hernia. So they said, ‘Go back and get that fixed and come back in six months’ time.’ So off I went. Had the operation. I thought maybe I could live out that six months but the letter came very shortly telling me to report back to Cardington in November of that year. And I thought I’d go through the same procedure again but no. ‘You’re in son. Go and get your uniform.’ That’s it. And so I was in. Went through the usual recruit training and I had no idea of getting any aircrew training coming up. My first appointment was Harlaxton in the Grantham area which was a flying school there. And they were flying [pause] oh dear [pause] battledresses? Battle? No. what did they call them? Anyway, pretty — the only, I suppose, modernish aircraft.
DE: Battles.
JJ: That’s it. That we had at that time and my job was to sit in the flight office and take hourly weather reports and phone it through to the Met Office so they could construct their forecast. Boring as hell. And then added to guard duties probably in the evening and night. And we had a satellite station across the way and I can’t remember the name of it but we used to have to go over there on guard duties. And one thing I remember about that place is that one night, sitting there after having done my two hours, sitting in the hut and one of the bed frames was propped up against the wall and I looked around and I saw a rat behind it. I quickly put, fixed my bayonet. End of rat and that was it. At least I made use of my bayonet on one occasion. But there we go. And then eventually down to Babbacombe for the Aircrew Receiving Centre and the start of the aircrew training. And that was where, in the first place if I can put it — I met my doom. We were billeted in hotels and my roommate and I were walking out on the street one evening and these two young ladies were walking towards us. I was the shy, retiring one but for some unknown reason said, ‘Are you going our way?’ And this voice said, ‘That depends on which your way is.’ That was Gwyn and that was our meeting and that was how it started. Quite an amazing sound that was. But then the aircrew training came along. I was posted down to Newquay to ITW and during that time Gwyn decided to join the WAAF and she became a telephone watcher in the — telephone operator in the WAAF. And we went from ITW to up north to wait for a ship to take us either to America or to Rhodesia for pilot training. I was going to America and there, there were two training systems. We had our own British flying training schools and the rest were organised by the American — American Army Air Corps. And of course at that stage America had no thought of being in the war at all. And I could not take the American Army Air Corps but I got one of their stations. Nice posting. Arcadia in Florida. But I could not stand their petty discipline. First thing. When you made your bed you had to fold the top blanket and the bottom at exactly forty five degrees and the inspecting officer would go around with a protractor and make sure it was forty five degrees and if it wasn’t — stripped off and you did it again. And their marching. That really got up my nose. So sloppy it didn’t mean a thing. However, we carried on. Fortunately, the instructors were civilians. Very pleasant people. And believe it or not I managed to solo but my landings weren’t what they might have been. And so he said, ‘I’m sorry,’ one day, ‘I’m sorry old son. I don’t think you’re going to make it.’ I said, ‘Don’t be sorry. Neither do I.’ So that was that. About ten of us washed out pilots were then posted, again on the American Army Air Corps to Maxwell Field in Montgomery. And we weren’t supposed to talk going to breakfast so we sang, “Colonel Bogey.” I don’t know if you know that but if you do you shouldn’t maybe but that was how we went into breakfast. On our last day — our senior bod was a flight sergeant gunner who’d been hoping to be accepted and made it He said, ‘Let’s show these so and so’s how to march.’ And so we fell in, RAF style, outside the dining room and we marched back to the billet a hundred and sixty paces a minute with arms swinging forward and backwards, waist high — and the looks we got as we went along. At least we felt we’d left our mark on Maxwell Field and that was that. Gave us that much satisfaction. It was, anyway, back to Canada and wait for a troop ship to bring us home. I joined in November of 1940. I landed back in this country in January 1942 no nearer to fighting that war that I’d joined for than I had been when I joined. So it was the shortest course and it was gunnery. So I did the gunnery course. I managed to get through that but instead of being posted to an OTU like other aircrew where you mixed up, formed your crews and then went off for further training I was posted straight out to 97 Squadron at Woodhall as a spare gunner. Which meant I had to fly with anyone who hadn’t got a mid-upper or a rear gunner for that night’s operation. Quite an inauguration in to operational flying but we managed to get by but at that stage 97 had just been re-equipped with Lancasters and they were looking for the seventh member of crew. The bomb aimer. And they were training them at a local station. And since it made a difference between seven and six and twelve and six a day I thought I’d have a go at that and so I re-trained as a bomb aimer. And then came back to the squadron as a spare bomber aimer and after I’d done about ten trips all around I was told I was joining this crew with an American pilot. My immediate thought was — Oh my God. Americans again. Then I met Joe McCarthy, at that stage a flight lieutenant. Six foot three and breadth to go with the height. Big in size, big in personality but one we discovered, to our great confidence, big in pilot ability. Absolute. I never thought that Joe wouldn’t bring me back from any trip. And my goodness, he didn’t. But that was, I think, maybe it might have been something to do with my barely five foot seven looking up at his six foot three we just seemed to gel and we became the best of friends. On duty he was the pilot. I was the bomb aimer. We had our jobs and that was it.
HH: You had quite an international crew, didn’t you?
JJ: We did indeed. We had the navigator and the rear gunner were both Canadians. The flight engineer was, although in the RAF at that stage had been to America as a child. His parents had emigrated and then his mother and his grandmother brought him back later in life but he had nationalised, nationalised Canadian business whilst with the family whilst he was out there. That left just three of us. The American pilot of course. English. The wireless operator was the daddy of the crew. He was thirty. And then the mid-upper gunner was just a year my senior. And that was the three of us. However, we got on very well as a crew. I think, I have to say the attitude of the majority of the Bomber Command crews who, most of which were volunteers anyway was they’d volunteered to do what they could about this war and to do the job, whichever their job was, to the best of their ability and I’m sure the majority of them did that all the time. From my point of view, on the normal bombing raids where initially you was in the dark, out of moon you saw nothing until you got to the target area and you saw all the guns that you’d got to go through before you came home. But once you started the bombing run my concentration was on the bomb sight and the marker or whatever the target was and it stayed just on that line. What was going on outside didn’t mean a thing to me. I didn’t feel it. I didn’t see it and I just got on with the job that I was supposed to do. And then when bombs gone we had to fly straight and level so that the camera could take a picture of where our bombs had dropped. So, there was no point in saying we dropped somewhere near the target if we’d lobbed the bombs off before we got there or somewhere near because they’d have been shown up on the camera. However, that was it. After that it was nose up and home as fast as —
HH: Did you ever have any idea how dangerous it all was for the aircrew?
JJ: No. I sometimes think. No, I’ll put it this way. I’m asked occasionally, ‘Were you ever frightened?’ And I said, well from that description I give of arriving at the target. Certainly for the first time anyone who wasn’t a bit apprehensive was either devoid of emotion or was a stranger to the truth. One of the early television programmes I did the director asked me that question and I gave him the same answer. He said, ‘In other words they were bloody liars.’ I said, ‘Well if that’s the way you want to put it.’ When they produced that television programme that’s the only part of that conversation that was put in and I rang him up and said, ‘Look, what are my ex-comrades going to think of that young whipper snapper referring to them all as bloody cowards.’ He said, ‘Johnny that’s television. There’s a sensational bit. Sorry but that’s the way it goes.’ And they also did the American version and that opened up with my picture and that statement straight away. I felt a bit hard about that but there we are. That’s television. You’re subject to whatever they want to produce in the end. However, we managed to get by and we got to the stage where we were very close to the end of our first tour. In those days you did — a first tour was thirty trips and at the end of that thirty trips you got a week’s leave and then you went on to either a ground tour or a non-operational flying tour. Well, having anticipated this, this leave, this week’s leave, my fiancé and I arranged to get married on the 3rd of April. In the meantime, Wing Commander Gibson rang Joe and asked him would he consider joining a special squadron that he was forming for one special trip. And Joe said, ‘I’ll have to ask the crew,’ which he did and we agreed to go with him. I wrote, or told Gwyn [down in Devon?] about this reorganisation and the answer I got was, ‘If you’re not there on the 3rd of April, don’t bother.’ I thought aye aye, the first mandate’s been issued. And there we go. So that was how we came to be part member of what was known then as Squadron X and we moved over to Scampton. Again, a date I will always remember – March the 27th – and the first thing we heard was — no leave. Oh God, there goes my wedding. Again, Joe in his inimitable style took us up to Gibson’s office as a crew and said, ‘We’ve just finished our first tour. We’re entitled to a week’s leave. My bomb aimer’s supposed to be getting married on the 3rd of April and he’s going to get married on the 3rd of April.’ Oh my God. A flight lieutenant talking to the wing commander like that. But what I didn’t know was that Joe had done some training with one of Gibson’s training units and so Gibson knew something about him and had, obviously, enough confidence to ask him would he join that crew. Incidentally, the fact that Gibson selected all the crews is not right. He selected his one or two people that he knew of, notably from 106 Squadron which he commanded before he moved over and the rest were appointed by the wing commanders on each squadron. 5 Group was the group. In that Group were asked to recommend on or two experienced pilots from crews for this exercise and that’s how the crews were selected basically. So we got our leave. I got my wedding. Just. Basically we got, on the morning of the wedding, a choir boy came around to the house on the morning of the wedding with a message from the vicar which said because Gwyn was only eighteen at that stage. A lady at that time under the age of twenty one had to have both parents’ permission to get married and her father was in North Africa with the army. Fortunately, nan was able to find a letter in which he had agreed to the wedding taking place so we got away with it again and that was it and we got our wedding eventually. And there we are. And I would add, at this stage, that lasted for sixty two and a half years. So, I have a lot to be thankful for in that. However, we got our leave and then we had the experience of joining 617 Squadron as it was now called. One thing that surprised us again was the experience of the majority of the crews. Many of them having completed their first tour. Some on their second tour and just a few who were not that experienced but recommended by their wing commanders. We were told by Gibson that we would not be told what the target was. He didn’t know and neither would we know until much later but it was a special operation and again was going to, it had been said that it would make a difference to the war effort and training would be low level. It was great. Having done bombing operations at ten, twelve, fifteen thousand feet in the dark and certainly above cloud and then being able to fly down. A hundred feet was the prescribed height but very seldom was that achieved. It was usually just a little bit below that and lying in the front I had the best, the best seat as it were. Lying down in the front of the aircraft just seeing the ground whizzing past was so exhilarating, it was quite tremendous. I don’t know — you may know Sutton Bridge in Lincolnshire. I believe so-called because the road bridge crosses a canal on the way in to the town but as you fly up from the south the electric cables also cross the canal and the practice, not briefed, but undertaken each time we came across that town was to go underneath the cables and up over the bridge. Wonderful. It really was. Absolutely first class. One of the residents here could tell me that she had an aunt who lived in Sutton Bridge at that time and she said the whole of the population were scared stiff about all these low flying aircraft that were going about. That’s war dear. You know, that’s one of those things. Anyway, that was one of the things. Bomb aimers had to make their own bomb sights and it consisted of a triangle of plywood with a peg in each angle but the distance between the base pins had to be specific and the distance from the apex had to be specific. On the bombing range they arranged two poles. Again, specific distances apart and the idea on a bombing practice was that the bomb aimer would hold a single pin to his eye and direct the pilot until the two base pins were in line with the poles. Drop the bombs. Practice bombs I hasten to add. And that was that. If you got it right — fine. If you didn’t you did it again and again and again until you got it right. And then we also used some of the reservoirs in this country. Notably Derwent Water in Derbyshire and we used the towers there as the marking points and a marker in the reservoir itself showed roughly where the bombs should drop. And I sometimes wonder how the Sheffield people felt about what was happening to their drinking water being mutilated by practice bombs being dropped but we never heard any comments about it so that was that. In the meantime the special aircraft had arrived. Lancasters, yes. But no mid-upper turret. The bomb doors appeared to be absolutely sealed and these two legs sticking down either side, one either side of the fuselage just behind the nose and one of them had a bevelled wheel on the, at the end of it. And then the bomb arrived. Just like a large glorified dustbin but at least it gave us the indication as to what those legs were for. Quite obviously that is how the bomb was going to be carried. Latched in to those legs. We went on various cross countries and I never understood, oh, sorry — we had no navigation aids so navigation was done by map reading and dead reckoning. Navigator and bomb aimer each had a map. The navigator would tell me what he expected me to see. If I saw it that was fine. If I didn’t I could pick out something else conspicuous and he could, if necessary alter his course accordingly. And that was how we got around. What I could never understand was how you were supposed to map read over the North Sea because one of the turning points was over the North Sea. You had to guarantee that the point you left this coast was the right one. That your dead reckoning out to the point and back again was accurate and you hit our coast in the right place coming back. Fortunately, we seemed to make it fairly regularly and got away with it and that was that. And having gone through all that we then moved on to what was a twilight situation where the front of the aircraft — the cabin and the whole of the front were covered in blue sheeting and the pilot and the bomb aimer wore night given, sorry night vision glasses. So it created quite the twilight situation and we went through the same exercise again and it was on one of those, on our North Sea leg that I saw a dinghy in the water and two characters in it waving like mad. So, Joe told the wireless operator to wireless base with our position and the sighting of the dinghy. And a couple of days later we got a signal from the CO of, I think, a Beaufighter squadron or something similar thanking us for reporting that dinghy. The crew had had to ditch and as soon as their report was received the sea craft, safety craft went out and picked them up and got them back home so we had done something useful. And that was that. And then it was just night flying. Except it had to be night flying in brilliant moonlight and we went through the same procedures with the night flying as we had through the rest of the flying. And then Gibson thought we were ready to go but it didn’t really depend on him. And so I have to say at this stage we still didn’t know what the target was going to be. On the Saturday night we met in the ops room as a squadron. Met Barnes Wallis for the first time to really meet him and he explained to us through film how he’d developed what was referred to as the bouncing bomb. Told us something about the bomb as well. It weighed nine thousand pounds of which six and a half thousand was explosive contained inside it, fused with two depth fuses which were set to explode at a depth of twenty five feet of water but it rotated backwards at five hundred revs a minute. It had to be dropped from exactly sixty feet at a ground speed of two hundred knots. All these things were achieved. For instance, the sixty foot mark was achieved by the boffins at Farnborough calculating the angles at which two lights in the starboard side of the fuselage had to be set so that when they converged that was exactly sixty feet. So, it became more of a crew exercise where the navigator, through the Perspex was watching the lights indicating up or down. The flight engineer was watching the speed and adjusting or asking the pilot to adjust and the bomb aimer was giving corrections to get the bomb sight in line with the target. So, the pilot was being told by three other members of the crew how to fly the aircraft. He didn’t seem to object too much to that because it worked out. And there we go. And so that was on the, on the Saturday night and as I say Barnes Wallis had given us this indication and still couldn’t tell us what the target was but it did mean that with that bomb sight we were dropping the bomb some four hundred and twenty five yards away from the target and it would bounce along until it hit the target which immediately raised conjectures in our minds about the target being the German battleships. Particularly the Tirpitz. Because if you’re going to drop the bombs so far away you would get away before their heavy defence was going to do you much damage. However, on the Sunday all 617 Squadron aircrew in to the operations room and then we saw how wrong you could be. And there were just two models in the brief. The Möhne and the Sorpe. The Eder model hadn’t been completed so it wasn’t there. Big map on the wall showing two routes in and one route out. I think it was the highest powered briefing I ever attended. The AOC was there. The station commander, Gibson of course was there doing the briefing. Barnes Wallis was there. The senior armaments and engineering officers from the station were there. The intelligence officer was there. And the dear old Met man was there. And so Gibson did the briefing and explained that he would take off with two others in formation and they would head for the Möhne. Shortly after him six others in two threes would leave and also head for the Möhne. If, when they then got there, the Möhne hadn’t been breached, they would attack the Möhne under Gibson’s command until it was and then move over to the Eder. Five crews, of which we were one would breach the Sorpe. And of course, the Sorpe had to be different. It didn’t have any towers so there was nothing to sight on and it was so placed in the hills that a head on attack was almost impossible. And we were briefed that we had to fly down one side of the hills with the port outer engine over the dam itself. Fly along the dam until — and estimate to drop the bomb. Sorry the bomb wasn’t being rotated at all. It was an inert drop and the drop estimate to drop the bomb as nearly as possible to the centre of the dam. Pure estimation. No sighting involved. Right. Disappointment from our point of view. We weren’t going to be able to use the bombing practices particularly that we’d been practising and we had no idea of how to carry out that type of attack until we got there but that was the job we were given so that was it. We went to the messes for the pre-operational meal of the good old egg and bacon which came out regularly. Mind you the egg was in various forms, sometimes just the powered stuff or whatever. But it was always there. And there were times when one heard of the story of, in the Sergeants’ Mess one wag saying to another one, ‘Can I have your bacon if you don’t come back?’ And that was a standard phrase that was chatted around. But then out to the aircraft and then came our great shock. Q-Queen was our aircraft. Had behaved perfectly throughout training but when we started up it created a hydraulic leak on run up. Impossible to fix before take-off and there was only one reserve aircraft. It arrived at 3 o’clock that afternoon. It had been bombed up. It had been fuelled up and it had a compass swing with the bomb on board to offset the metal of the bomb against the aircraft compasses. In his anxiety to get out I won’t use the language that he did telling us to get out as quickly as possible before someone else got there and we didn’t get to go. In his anxiety he pulled his parachute and it billowed behind him as we waddled off to the reserve aircraft. And then the real next break — the compass card which had been done on that bombing up wasn’t in the aircraft. Joe had a tremendous vocabulary. I don’t think I heard him use the same word twice but he got in to the truck in a flaming temper. Back to the flights. Fortunately when you got down there the squadron adjutant was there, Humph, who said, ‘For God’s sake Joe calm down. If you don’t you’re going to make a complete pig’s ear of the whole thing.’ Right. Now that did calm him down and our flight sergeant discip, Chiefy Powell, a very efficient man had heard Joe say that he wasn’t going to bother with a parachute so chiefy went off to the flights and collected the compass card and then detoured to the parachute section and picked up another parachute. Gave Joe the compass card in the front of the truck, pushed the parachute in the back, ‘Your compass,’ sorry, ‘Your parachute sir.’ Flight sergeant to a flight lieutenant didn’t make much difference in those days but apart from that to me it illustrated the spirit of the squadron as a whole. The ground crew were right behind the aircrew all the way. It was a very solid squadron all the way through and I think that partially depicted that effort. And so, thirty minutes late we got off. Tell me if I’m talking too much here.
DE: No. You’re doing fine. It’s wonderful stuff.
JJ: Because there was no mid-upper turret the mid-upper gunner was flying in the front turret. Fortunately, they did it in stirrups so he wasn’t kicking me up the backside all the time. But as we were going along, some miles south of Hamm a goods train was chugging along at right angles to our track and Ron Batson in the front turret said, ‘Can I have a go, Joe?’ And I think almost reluctantly Joe said, ‘Well. Yes. Alright.’ So Ron opened up with his little 303s which was all we had in the front turret. What we didn’t know was that it wasn’t just a goods train, it was an armoured goods train and it replied with rather more than 303s. We knew we’d been hit. We heard it and we felt it but it didn’t seem to impede the aircraft at all so we just carried on. And then we arrived at the Sorpe. And the first thing we saw was on the hill, on the side of the hill from which we were supposed to make the approach there was a church steeple. So, Joe, because we weren’t spinning the bomb we’re not governed by any of the conditions of dropping that bomb. So we could go as low or as fast or as slow. Whatever we could. And Joe used the church as a marker. Tried to level up from that point and we started to go down. As I say we’d never practiced this type of attack before and it wasn’t easy. If I wasn’t satisfied I called, ‘dummy run,’ and we went back up again and started again. If Joe wasn’t satisfied he just pulled away and left me to call a dummy run. After about the sixth or seventh of these a voice from the rear turret said, ‘Won’t somebody get that bomb out of here.’ And I had to realise how to become the most unpopular member of the crew in double quick time but I know that both Joe and I were there to do a particular job and we were going to do that to the best of our ability. So we went down and although neither of us said anything to each other I’m sure we both realised that the lower we got the less forward travel that bomb was going to have before it hit the water. And secondly the lower we got the easier it was going to be to estimate the aiming point. On the tenth run we were down to thirty feet. When I said, ‘Bomb gone,’ ‘Thank Christ,’ came from the rear turret but in retrospect I had to see Dave’s point of view. He, as the rear gunner, was responsible for the safety of our aircraft from enemy aircraft and each time you went up you were going over the village and why not somebody there ringing the authorities and saying they’re bombing our, trying to bomb our dam at low level and they’d have had the fighters out there in no time flat and bye bye McCarthy’s crew in, equally, no time flat. So, I can understand to some degree Dave’s anxiety. Because we were so low it was nose up straight away to avoid the hills on the other side. I didn’t see the explosion but Dave did, again, in the rear turret and he estimated that the tower of water went up to about a thousand feet. Well if you’re going to explode six and a half thousand tonnes [sic] of explosive at a depth of twenty five feet it’s going to do an awful lot of damage one way, all ways, including upwards. And that of course was one thing that happened. ‘Not only that,’ said Dave from the rear turret, ‘But in the down flow some of it came in to the turret so I thought I was going to be drowned besides being knocked around by you lot up there.’ Anyway, we circled and we seemed to have cracked the surface of the dam. This was about ten yards. And that was that. Barnes Wallis had told us at briefing because of the structure of the Sorpe it was almost like a pyramid. Concrete centre and built all around with broken rock, earth, packed in tight and then concrete again on the outsides. Barnes Wallis had said, ‘If you can crack it the water pressure will do the rest.’ He thought you’d need at least six bombs to crack it. Obviously one wasn’t going to do it. And what we couldn’t understand was we had been so late taking off yet when we got there, there was no sign of anybody having been there. Nor did anyone arrive once we were there. Where they had gone we didn’t know until we got back. So then we set a course for home and I think, to me, that was the most inspiring part of the trip. Our journey home took us straight over what had been the Möhne dam and we knew from radio broadcast it had been breached and there was water everywhere. It was just like an inland sea and it was still coming out of that dam twenty minutes, half an hour, after it had been breached. It was a wonderful satisfaction for seeing, and we knew by radio broadcast the Eder had been breached too. So at least had the satisfaction of seeing some, real satisfaction of that operation and so off we went home. And then I suppose I have to take some responsibility for what happened next because we’d got off the track. We were supposed to be map, still at low level, map reading and we ended up over a railway and a railway yard but it wasn’t just a railway yard. It was the Hamm marshalling yard and that was where all the ammunitions that were made in the Ruhr were distributed to the various war areas by the transport. Sea or land and rail. Not the healthiest of places to be. Down goes Joe and then again from the rear turret, ‘Who needs guns? At this height all they need to do is change the points.’ Dave had that facility for brightening every particular situation. Joe said, ‘Right. We’re going out the way we came in. That’s it.’ So we did and we got back to Scampton and Scampton in those days was still a grass airfield and so landings were inclined to be a little more lumpy than now, than normal runway landings but ours was rather more than something lumpy and we were starboard wing low. And the flight engineer, looking out of the Perspex said, ‘We’ve got a burst tyre, skipper.’ So, he taxied around to dispersal and the chiefy engineer took the aircraft off to examine it and when he came back the first thing he did was to give us a sheer rollicking for getting his aircraft shot up in the way it was. But he explained that the shot had gone through the starboard undercarriage nacelle, burst the tyre en route, had then passed through the wing and landed in the roof, just above the navigator’s head. How lucky can you get? But we got away with it and that was that. Right. That was it. We then discovered why there seemed to be nobody else there. Les Munro, a New Zealand pilot, had been shot, shot up crossing the coast going in. Apart from other damage to the aircraft his communication system, systems, internal and external were completely destroyed and since it was obviously a communications exercise or operation there was no point him going on so he came back. We had been briefed that we were not to drop the — go back with the bomb on board and there was no explanation given but it also had, apart from the depth fuses it also had a self-destruct fuse so if we had to drop it away from the dams, if we dropped it it would explode and the Germans wouldn’t get a copy. Les landed. Couldn’t, couldn’t get rid of his bomb anyway so he had to land with it on. And they dashed out of the aircraft as soon as he was down, to get around in case. And I think the reason for that was that those in authority weren’t quite sure how that landing on the grass airfield with bumping — how the bomb would react to that. Would it drop off, explode and blow up the aircraft and crew there. So that was said. ‘Don’t bring the bomb back.’ And, as I say, Les and his crew got out pretty sharpish just in case. And then Geoff Rice had been flying low over the Zuiderzee. Again, to be drawing flak and he subsequently admitted he was foolish enough not to watch his altimeter and he got the bomb in the water. It whipped it off and the aircraft flew over the top of it. It didn’t do the aircraft any good of course. Apart from damage to the fuselage it ripped off the tail wheel but it also knocked over the Elsan inside the aircraft and the contents of the Elsan flowed in to the rear gunner’s turret. He wasn’t very happy about that either but there we go. Then he came back and landed. In fact, he was coming in to land and Les was at the same time. And since Les hadn’t been able to communicate to air traffic he had to go in as he was and the two of them were going in at the same time so Geoff had to fall off. Go around again. Eventually they both landed safely. Byers had been shot down and Barlow, I think it was Barlow, had hit the top of an electric pylon which fired the aircraft straightaway. It crashed into a field and killed the crew. But the bomb came off at the same time and it didn’t explode. And the only explanation I could think of was at that time the bomb aimer was waiting until they got nearer to the target to fuse it and that was the only thing I could think of. And there’s a picture, a German picture, I think of the mayor of the locality standing on top of the bomb [laughs] and it didn’t go off unfortunately. But there we are. But then, yes, the Germans had a copy and we know that they worked on it but fortunately, or unfortunately, Hitler decided the V1, V2 sites were much more important and they concentrated on that. So, they didn’t make a replica. But it did mean that in this country the reaction was felt that they would make a replica and attack our dams in the same way. So, all our major dams were much more heavily defended than they had been before.
DE: They wouldn’t have anything that would have carried that bomb at the time though either. Would they?
JJ: Sorry?
DE: They didn’t have any aircraft that would have carried that sort of bomb at the time either.
JJ: No. Knowing the Germans they would very quickly have modified something to do it. They were very efficient in those, that sort of thing. However, that accounted for the five. There had been six reserve aircraft who took off much later and they were briefed by radio as to which dam bombed, to head for and three of them were allocated to the Sorpe. The first one was shot down as he crossed the coast. Ken Brown, Canadian flight sergeant, was the only one who got through and as far as we know, difficult to make out but he had the same sort of attack as we did. But flight sergeant what’s his name. I can’t remember. But anyway, he was the third one and then mist was developing and he couldn’t find the Sorpe and so, getting close to daylight he thought, ‘We’d better go home.’ And so, they came home and he landed, again with his bomb on board. Fortunately, again, nothing happened. However, the next morning Gibson sent him back to the squadron that he came from for failing to carry out an operation for which he’d been briefed. It sounds hard but when you consider the money that had been spent on training, variation of the aircraft and all the equipment and so on and when the other thing you consider — the loss of crews. I think he was justified. But that was the devastating part of the whole night. Nineteen aircraft took off. Three returned for various reasons. Of the sixteen that went on only eight came back. We lost eight aircraft. Three aircrew managed to escape and were taken prisoner. The rest of the aircrews were killed. Eight aircraft. Fifty three aircraft [sic] had gone just like that. Quite a shattering end for one squadron. For one night’s operation. And although the bars were open at the messes when we got back, I didn’t drink in those days so I wasn’t concerned but I do know that those or at least I’m sure that those who were drinking was not on the success of the raid but on commiseration for all those that had gone and wouldn’t be coming back. I’m sure that feeling was far more uppermost in everybody’s minds that night. It took a lot to get over. And I suppose I went to bed and eventually I went to sleep but those hours. The Dams Raid, as far, as I was concerned had finished.
HH: Did you ever imagine then how that particular night would be possibly the most remembered night of the bombing war?
JJ: I remember and still do. It was the most remembered night of my operational career and will always be. Putting it in plain language it was the highlight of my operational career and I think those who survived would feel the same way about it. It was difficult to imagine it happening in the first place. It was equally difficult to see how much was going to be achieved. And I have an aversion for what I call retrospective historians. There are a number of them. Not a number of them a few of them after the war, claimed that the dams raid should never have taken place. It achieved nothing. It cost far too much money. It cost a lot of lives, loss of aircraft and it deviated aircraft from the general bomber offensive. I used to say as a young man if I ever met one of those people I’d hope my hands were tied behind my back because I’m not too sure what I would do with them. But I just and still would ask them two questions. ‘Were you there? Were you aware, were you personally aware of the circumstances and conditions of that time? The answer to both those questions is no so keep your bloody mouth shut.’ And that’s the way I really look at it now. Fortunately, I’ve found that the historians I have met subsequently have a much different view of the whole thing. Yes, they’ve researched it thoroughly and they’ve been as non-critical as possible in the whole thing. Rob Owen is our squadron historian. A great character, he really is. He too has recently passed his professorship and anyway he — that was the sort of thing that happened, there we are. However, after that we, yes, we had a week’s leave but beyond that we sat and waited. Re-equipped with standard aircraft. Re-equipped with a new bomb sight, the Stabilised Automatic Bomb Sight which was much more accurate than the Mark XIV that we had been using up to that time. And so we became a special target squadron rather than part of the main bombing force and so, we did attacks on ammunition factories, rail viaducts and all that sort of thing. Major structures and ammunition supplies. Firstly, in Germany and when they’d been bashed around, in to France. And during that time we had a new squadron commander. Leonard Cheshire. To my mind the finest squadron commander I served under during the whole of my operational career.
HH: Why was that?
JJ: He was a perfect gentleman to start with. I know it sounds stupid but that was part of it. I remember the first talk he had with us as a squadron. He said, ‘If you get,’ amongst other things, ‘If you get into trouble off duty I’ll do what I can to help you. If you get into trouble on duty I’ll make it a damn sight worse for you.’ So we always knew where we stood from the word go. But he was the type of man who knew exactly what he wanted to do and what it was all about. And he developed, amongst other things, his own marking technique which was ultimately adopted by 5 Group as the 5 Group marking technique. He and Micky Martin mostly did the marking. Initially using the Lancaster. And the thing that really makes Cheshire stick out — on the French targets particularly and on one French armament factory, again the name escapes me, but he, before he marked the target he made three low level flights over the factory and then marked the target and the factory was bombed and absolutely knocked around. And a short while afterwards we got a letter from what I must imagine was, we referred to as the foreman of the working party thanking him for giving, giving them the warning so that they could get out in time. Only one person was killed and that was by a piece of flying debris and that was all the others out of the way and he did this on several targets in that sort of way. The thing that really finished him operationally — he was an observer in the American aircraft that dropped the first atom bomb on Japan and he said, ‘If that’s what we’re aiming for I want nothing more to do with it.’ All that immediate devastation, life, everything anyway. ‘No. That’s not for me.’ So, he did no more operations and then ultimately when he retired he set up the Cheshire Homes in this country and overseas as well. And when I finally retired, that was a long time afterwards, I was [pause] we went back to Torquay. To Gwyn’s home. And I somehow found myself on the town council and we were opening a social services home for some of our residents and Leonard Cheshire was coming down to open it and he saw me in amongst the people there and he came over, shook hands, and mentioned me by name. I thought that must have been at least twenty years previously that we’d known each other. What a wonderful mind. What a wonderful memory. I have nothing but praise for that man in everything that he did. And he married Sue Ryder who was also a big charity worker. I think, I’m not sure but I think she was a Roman Catholic and I think he converted at that time. But yes, I’m waiting. There’s a function coming up. I’m not sure when but shortly, to celebrate, I think it’s the hundred and twenty fifth birthday of Leonard Cheshire and I’ve been invited to go along to that. I’m not sure quite where it is or when it is now but that’s up to Jenny when she, when she gets back. But it’s the sort of thing which yes, I really want to go to that because I really have so much respect for that man and that was it.
HH: But you went on, if I’m not mistaken, to complete two tours.
JJ: [unclear] I should have gone on more but in April of ‘44 Gwyn was expecting our first child and Joe knew her quite well and he pulled me aside one day and said, ‘Johnny. Gwyn must be worried stiff about whether this child is ever going to have a father or whether she’s ever going to have a husband. You’ve got to give her a break. Pack it up now.’ And he made me realise that yes, I had other responsibilities besides fighting the war. Operationally fighting a war. And with great reluctance I left the crew at that stage. They went on and did, I think, at least ten more trips but by this time Leonard Cheshire had done a hundred and the AOC Sir Ralph Cochrane called him into group headquarters and said, ‘Leonard. You’ve done more than your share. Pack it up. That’s not a request. It’s an order. And when you get back to the squadron tell McCarthy, Munro and Shannon to do the same thing.’ They were the only three original pilots that formed the squadron and that was when the crew broke up. But Joe, as an American, stayed in the Canadian air force and became a wing commander flying and went on to operational flying stations. The thing that still sticks very much in my mind. I mentioned how the friendship between us seemed to develop. After the war he and Alice, his wife, would come over for the reunions and Gwyn and I would go. We’d meet up and then we’d take ourselves off on a Friday night off to a pub or something like that and have a quiet meal on our own and talk about our families. What we had done with them, what we were doing with them, what we were expecting from them and that sort of thing. And that family chat went on right up until the time that Joe died in 1996. We had a wonderful relationship. And his son, also Joe, I still have that same sort of contact with him and his wife. And that, for me, was the outstanding part of my war. The established friendship between not only between the two of us but between our families and that was really great. It really was.
HH: It comes across very strongly in your book your dedication to your family and your commitment to your family. Where did, where did that come from?
JJ: From my childhood where I didn’t have any family relationship. When life was, to put it politely, pretty miserable until I met Gwyn’s family. A Welsh family. Her father, as I said, was in the army in North Africa but her mother was a lovely French lady. Chatter chatter chatter. Laugh. She had two brothers and a sister and their family, as such, were all the same. Always chattering with each other, chattering with each other and they got on so well together and I thought, my first reaction was, ‘My God. What have I let myself in for?’ But I soon discovered what family was all about and that’s where it established. And what it has done, in fact, has made me realise how poor my family relationship was in my younger days. My very young days. My sister and one of my sisters in law was also very friendly as far as I was concerned. They were the only two. Alena was my surrogate mother for quite some time. Only seven years older than me but she managed us both extremely well and it was the sort of thing that I find that the family I’ve got now — they’re just great. And the support I get from my immediate family, immediate family, is absolutely wonderful. I found, when Gwyn was in hospital the children came over. That’s Sue and Jenny used to come over and visit her in hospital and Morgan was over on this one occasion and we went back to the flat and I thanked him for coming down and the other two for coming to see mum, you know and I said, ‘It’s great for her and it’s certainly great for me as well.’ He said, ‘Well you know why that is don’t you dad?’ I didn’t know. He said, ‘It’s the way we were brought up.’ And my God — coming from my son. I was absolutely amazed because he and I hadn’t agreed awfully well in his teenage years. His idea of discipline and mine tended to differ a bit but we got over that and I think the real climax of our relationship has come with that book where he’s written the last bit. When I read that there were tears in my eyes. So sincere. So, so much to the point. And I loved his last sentence, ‘How a young, how a great life for a poor farming Lincolnshire lad whose only friend was a pig’ [laughs]. I thought that was a great way to finish it.
HH: Yeah. After the war you remained in the RAF.
JJ: Yeah.
HH: But you were moved around an awful lot.
JJ: Yes.
HH: And how did you cope with — how did your family and how did you cope with all of that moving?
JJ: Very well in actual fact except that it came to a point where we had to consider the children’s education. Particularly Morgan’s. Why we should be more concerned with the boy and not the girls I don’t know but there we are. And he had to go to boarding school but he went with our promise that if we ever went overseas we would take him out and take him with us. But as a family, from my point of view I’ve always got the family with me for as long, not all the time obviously but when we got an idea of a posting if we had time we would go down to the area of the posting and see if we could find accommodation down there. And when the posting came along went straight into that accommodation. If we didn’t we’d book a, book into the local hotel and Gwyn would look for accommodation whilst I was at work but we always managed to stay together as much as we could. And I used that on one occasion when I know I didn’t do myself any good at all career wise. But I’d been, I’d been on a course in Norfolk. I think they called it a senior officer’s administrative course. One of these courses where you’re taught when you’re writing official letters to leave so much margin on the left and so much on the right and the spacing of the paragraphs and so on and that is how it should be done. There was a little bit more about the course than that but that was the general gist of it and when the course was ended everybody got their postings except me. So, I said to the course commander, ‘Where am I going?’ ‘Well we’re still trying to find out.’ And eventually he came to me. He said, ‘You’re going to the twin engine bomber OTU to start with and then on to the V force OTU and then on to a V force squadron.’ I said, ‘I’m not.’ ‘What do you mean you’re not?’ I said, ‘I’ve had five moves in fifteen months. I think it’s time I spent more time with my family.’ He said, ‘Well. That’s what you’ve got. ’ Went back to my station, which was St Mawgan at that stage and had to go and see the AOC. And amongst other things he said, ‘You realise this won’t do your career any good Johnson.’ I was still a flight lieutenant at that stage. ‘I do sir. But what I do really want — to have more time with my family and I think I should have a chance to do that.’ ‘Alright. Be it on your own head.’ And I was posted then to recruit school at Bridgnorth. And people said, Good God. Tech Training Command. Recruit school. What a,’ so and so, ‘Awful posting.’ I found it didn’t work out that way at all because it was the first time I’d been associated with man management. It had always been aircrew stuff before that. I’d either been flying or an instruction point of view. And no two days were the same at recruit school. There was always something odd would happen. On one particular occasion, in the evening, a corporal came down to quarters and said, ‘Would you come back up to the squadron sir? A recruit up there is threatening to commit suicide with his bayonet.’ I went up and this laddie was sitting on the edge of his bed with his bayonet in his hand and I said, ‘Why? What’s this all about?’ He said, ‘Well, I don’t think I’m doing at all well on this course. I don’t think I should be doing it anyway. I don’t think I’m doing anybody else any good at all. I think there’s only one way to do it and that’s to end it.’ I said, ‘Just listen a minute. Why don’t you make your mind up to do this course properly? To do it to the best of your ability and then find how much better off you feel about it. Just try that and see how it goes.’ And he looked at me and he thought and I said, ‘Give me that bayonet,’ which he did and he went on to do one of the best recruits on the flight at that stage. That was the odd sort of thing that happened. Another character came in one day to ask if he could have a ‘48’ for his grandmother’s eighty third birthday party. I said, ‘For your cheek yes you can but by golly if you’re not back here on Monday sunshine you’re in dead lumber.’ But there we are. Odd sort of things that happened there.
HH: Was that instructor experience that made you consider teaching as a career post-RAF?
JJ: No. I don’t think that really came into it. Um, what made me? When I, sorry, my last tour was the worst of the whole of my career and it was back to Hemswell. In the operations room. And we were controlling the Thor guided missiles. We had four sites of Thor, the American Thor guided missiles and we were controlling those and it was a question of — I’d never been on a shift system before and this was a ghastly one. You did two days from four ‘til, sorry from eight in the morning ‘til four in the afternoon. Two days from four until midnight and then two days from midnight until eight the next morning. Your system just didn’t get used to anything and then you had what they claimed to be a sleeping day and a day off. Well, since I was living out at that stage at our home we had taken over. My sister’s home then. And we had a big garden there so my sleeping day was spent in the garden most of the time and that was it but I felt that — I know I’d got a letter then from the, I suppose it was the MOD by that time saying it was unlikely that I would get any further promotion and thank you very much. Goodbye. We’d discussed this for some time actually. Time we started to move and look for something else. But then the question was, what the hell can I do? I‘ve no qualifications for going outside but I’d done a lot of instruction in various ways in the service. That’s what made me think about the possibility of teaching and so I applied for junior teaching because I felt that if I went secondary, into a secondary modern school their idea of discipline and mine would be different. And my idea of dealing with that discipline would be different from the authorities. I’d probably be out of a job more often than I was in it. So I went for junior and that was — and I was accepted for that. On the course I did a three year course in two years as a mature student and the authorities found two teaching practices for us. We had to find our own third. When we came back from Singapore Jenny had just a year to do in her junior education and we’d heard of the [pause] private school, primary school, Highfields in Newark and we went to have a look at it, liked it and she got a place there so when I did the teacher’s course I went to see the head to see if I could do my third teaching practice there and he said, ‘Yes, surely.’ And that meant I got to know the school extremely well. I don’t think the authorities were very pleased I’d chosen a private school rather than a state school but that was just tough, that was the way it went. And when I finished the teaching practice they said, ‘If I get a vacancy would you like to come here?’ Too right I would. And so off we went and then I got my first posting to a state school. To a class of forty six C stream.
DE: Crikey.
JJ: Who didn’t want to know the first thing about anything. Except one lad I always remember. He said, ‘I don’t know nothing about reading and writing, sir. But I do know my money.’ He was a scrap merchant’s son so that was understandable. But that was the sort of thing that I — but during that year, that first year, the head from Highfields rang me and said, ‘I’ve got a vacancy coming up in September. Are you still interested?’ Was I interested? Too right I was interested [laughs] and so I had time to give notice to the LEA and moved in to the private school and that was where I learned to teach. To teach children who wanted to learn. Okay. The parents were paying for them to get that education but that was what it was all about and the teaching staff were dedicated to providing an education. It was a wonderful experience. And I went on with that for five years. But during that time I’d got a part time job on a Saturday morning at Rampton Hospital which, I don’t know if you know it, but the hospital for the bad boys. A special hospital for the bad boys and I decided to, with my previous private training, school training, to take on a horticultural class there.
HH: I’m just intrigued as to why you decided to that because it must have been quite challenging work.
JJ: I think it was another interest and it was a return to the work that I’d been doing before I joined the air force. I think that came into it as well. Mind you, yes. There were some shocks. You had to draw your keys in the morning. No. Sorry we’ll come back in a minute. But after a while the hospital decided they wanted an adult education section and they applied to the LEA. And the LEA agreed. So that was done and that was where I transferred from junior’s education to adult education. A different kind and very different in the level of the teaching.
HH: But much more difficult pupils.
JJ: No. Except that whenever they came in staff came in with them in case there was any problem. And no. They never had one as far as I was concerned but I still went on with the horticultural project as well and it was getting to the stage where they seemed to become much more interested in what they were doing. We had our own patch. We cultivated it, we grew the vegetables and passed them in to the hospital window for use and so on and I began to wonder would it be at all possible to take these people to a garden centre to see what goes on outside of a hospital garden and I discussed it with a senior nurse who told me in words of one syllable not to be so stupid. And we argued and we argued and we argued and, in the end, he said, ‘Alright. Be it on your own head,’ he said, ‘But you have to take staff with you.’ ‘I appreciate that but I hope they’ll come out of uniform,’ which they did thank God and we went off. Before we went I said to these characters, ‘Look this is a job on my head. If any of you do anything stupid on this outing I’ll have your guts for garters when you come back.’ But that was the sort of language they understood. We went off and I was amazed at how interested they were in the garden centre. In what they saw and how interested they were in the plants themselves too. We took them into a café for a cup of tea. They behaved themselves perfectly. So, we went back to Rampton and the head nurse was waiting for us when we got back there. He said, ‘Congratulations. How did, how did you manage it?’ I said, ‘With confidence.’ That was the end of that conversation and I felt that from my point of view that had been an achievement. And in the meantime my local hospital have the mental handicapped in Balderton. Not a term I’m supposed to use myself but they call them something like learning disabled or something like that. They’re still mentally handicapped as far as I’m concerned but there we are. That’s another story. But this was again a totally different type of education. It was a social education and we were taking the better of the patients and trying to build them up to be able to get them back in to the community. And we had our own classroom. I had a full time deputy and four part time teachers. Two mornings. Two for mornings. Two for afternoons. And we had a classroom, a kitchen, a bedroom all available there and we worked on through that and we had a group of, I suppose, a dozen of them and I was there for fourteen years. My last fourteen years was there and during that time after we’d carried on this social education for quite some years we managed to get three houses at various times. Two council and one private. And before me moved the patients in we went down to talk to the local people about the people that were coming to mix with them and then invited those people back up to the hospital to see them at work up there and see how they were going on. When we made the movement in so much easier for the patients and fortunately easier for the residents to accept them.
HH: What sort of mental disabilities did they have?
JJ: Good question [pause] I suppose one could only describe it as a very slowness in learning. An inability to learn in actual fact is probably the easiest way to describe it. There were variations of course. We had some Mongoloid patients there and I have to say although some of those could be very angry at times and very discouraging they were probably some of the lovingest people that were about. They seemed to love everybody. Great people then from that point of view.
HH: And you had quite a lot of success in rehousing people did you?
JJ: In those days and in that case yes we did and when I, by the time I left none of those people that we had moved into the houses had been returned to the hospital.
HH: Fantastic.
JJ: They’d all managed to stay out. Either with work — some of them got work. Others had picked up with other things looking after the house and sort of doing whatever they wanted to do.
HH: And what did you find especially satisfying about that kind of work?
JJ: The possibility of bringing some of those people back in to the community so they could learn to live in a community rather than in a hospital situation. That was the most satisfying thing about it I think.
HH: And then after that as far as I remember you retired and you moved back down to the West Country.
JJ: Torquay. Yes.
HH: But it wasn’t the end of retirement really because then you became a town councillor.
JJ: Yes [laughs]. That didn’t for last for long mind you. Three years. Then somebody else beat me to the next election. That was it but however yes, and again I don’t know if you know Torquay at all but it’s the sort of place, when I was first there was a lovely seaside place. It was much more modern when we I went to live there and when I was on the council I was on the planning. Got on to the planning committee and we used to go around to these various places where people had asked for planning permission to do something and as we went around I saw some of these buildings and I said to the people, ‘Who the hell gave permission for that to be built?’ The whole place was being destroyed by these ugly looking places that were being put up. However, they seemed to get on with it and that was it. And I was there, it was at that time that I met Leonard Cheshire again. But I’ve [pause] whilst I was at Balderton Hospital Gwyn was secretary of our village primary school and she retired in the summer and I retired at the Christmas and I said to her, ‘I’ve had twenty-two years in the service. I’ve had twenty-two years in various education. Now I want twenty-two years’ retirement.’ I rather overstepped that one unfortunately. She hasn’t. But life didn’t quite finish then. I thought it would when she died but there again the children stepped in and they said, ‘Dad, you haven’t talked about your wartime at all. Why don’t you start talking about it? It would at least give you something else to think about apart from grieving for mum all the time which we know you will be doing.’ And so, I thought about it and I tried it and it worked. Yes. It was something else to think about and I started occasional teaching talks to various groups. I didn’t volunteer but it started really when I came here to Bristol in that an individual who I just knew as an individual at that time, came to see me. Would I consider talking to their ‘41 Club? And that was Peter Wass that finally turned out to be. He then onwards introduced me to so many clubs and associations I’d never even heard of but that’s when the talking really started and the sort of thing which, on the seventieth anniversary of the dams raid, it just burst wide open and that’s when Jenny came in to her own and she took over as she said, secretary and she arranged all the meetings. The talks. The television programmes and either she put it on the calendar or told me to put it on the calendar. All I had to do was look on the calendar to see what I was supposed to be doing this week. But then came the time when I had begun to get movement, action, down further south and then Morgan, my son took over then. He lives in Surrey so he claimed to be secretary number two. Jenny said, ‘In that case I’m the PA,’ and that’s the way it stayed ever since.
DE: Why do you think you didn’t talk about it until that point?
JJ: I don’t think it was my wife’s objection anyway. I think maybe more [pause] that I didn’t think it was important at that stage to talk about it. It had happened. I’d seen all that I had to see during the war and that was it. I now had other things to think about and that was basically the only thing. I’d hate to say, I can’t see any real reason for it but that’s the only one what I can work out now that you’ve asked the question. And I think it’s more likely that having lost Gwyn I was — I had to have something else to do and that was the thing at that stage that I knew most about. My wartime experience. Why not start talking about it. Again it wasn’t my — it was the children who suggested it and by God, they were right.
HH: Well it has led to a lot of recognition for you and I would like, on behalf of the IBCC to congratulate you greatly for your MBE. On the award of your MBE. You seem, in your book, to have made a lot of mention of trying all of your life to get away from Lincolnshire and I’m very pleased that Lincolnshire beckons you back as it will be doing on the 7th of September when the university awards you an honorary doctorate. Well, well received and well deserved and I would just like to say thank you very much for talking to us this afternoon in this interview and I think we’ll stop the interview now.
DE: Okay. Right.
HH: And we will then go on to set up a short video.
DE: Okay.
HH: Thank you so much for speaking to us.
JJ: And may I say, may I say thank you to Lincoln University for making this wonderful offer. To me it means as much, if not more than the MBE in that it’s more concerned with my after-service life. The part which I live and live with and use quite often now. And I find that that has been another means of keeping me active. I spend quite a lot of time away from here but it’s time which I enjoy. I’ve come to enjoy talking to people. Meeting people and talking to them. And if I’m asked would I talk to a organisation, club or whatever — to me that means they’re interested and if they’re interested yes, I’ll talk to them. It’s a bit of a nostalgic trip for me anyway so it cuts both ways. But there’s another aspect recently, more recently and that is talking to junior schools. Now, the junior schools are teaching, outside, our junior schools are now teaching our World War Two history and I’ve been asked to talk to one or two of them and I found that the thing that amazes me is the look of interest in the children’s eyes when they come into the room. That makes it for me to start with. And when I finish talking and ask for questions the hands go up all over the place. Where the hell do I start? But to me that means they’re now learning something about why the country they’re living in is the country they’re living in and what it might have been had things gone the other way. And I think that’s a necessary part of their early education so they can complete it I think. And this is where I think the IBCC is a much more personal memorial than the Green Park one. Yes, the Green Park one is great. I take my hat off to the sculptor for the way he’s got the look in those crew people’s eyes as they’re waiting for their comrades to come back and so on but this — on operation if you’re coming back the Lincoln route when you got to the Cathedral you were home and the sighting of the IBCC in sight of Lincoln Cathedral is perfect for that and then with all those names written on the wall. Those names are there for perpetuity and all generations to come will be able to see those and think — why? How did they get here? And what did they do to get here? And their memory will still be cherished. As I say their home in name and their name will go on as long as it’s on that wall. I don’t know whether they completed it. I know they did all those of the aircrew from the Lincolnshire Bomber Command stations. I gather they were going to do the whole of the Bomber Command losses and I think that will take quite a lot of doing.
HH: The rest. You carry on.
DE: So, they’re in production at the moment. They’re making the steel walls.
JJ: Ah yeah.
DE: Yeah.
HH: They should be on site by the middle of October.
JJ: How wonderful, it really is. And I take my hat off to those people for the work they’ve done on that. It really is wonderful. And I get great pleasure in being able just to add a little bit towards whatever the construction is. That is, to me, as important a part of the charities I get as anything else.
HH: Well we do look forward to having you at the opening ceremony in April.
JJ: I hope to be there. I know I will have the April calendar blocked out [laughs].
DE: Marvellous.
HH: Thank you so much.
DE: Thank you for the interview and thank you for all the work you do for the IBCC.
JJ: And thank you again.
DE: Wonderful talking to you. Thank you.
JJ: Please give my thanks to whoever’s concerned at the university.
HH: Thank you. Well we’re going to meet again for the occasion because I am going to be introducing you in the Cathedral. So, what we will do, do you want to take a bit of a break? Have a cup of tea or something?
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Interview with Johnny Johnson. Two
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:56:39 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
George ‘Johnny’ Johnson was born in rural Lincolnshire. As a child he won a scholarship to Lord Wandsworth’s Agricultural College in Hampshire. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force at the outbreak of the Second World War and was selected for pilot training. He was sent to train in the United States. As he was so keen to get a posting, he trained instead as an air gunner. His first posting was as a spare gunner with 97 Squadron. Then he re-trained as a bomb aimer and was again posted as a spare bomb aimer until he was joined a crew in 617 Squadron to train for the Eder, Möhne and Sorpe operation, when it was still known as Squadron X. His pilot was Joe McCarthy. Their target was the Sorpe dam. That operation was the most memorable of his operational career. He also recounts his remaining years in the Royal Air Force, his second career as an educationist working with adults with severe learning needs and his subsequent role in local politics and as a public speaker.
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Heather Hughes
Date
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2017-08-01
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Brian May
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Sorpe Dam
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942
1943
5 Group
617 Squadron
97 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bouncing bomb
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
love and romance
memorial
operations room
RAF Scampton
RAF Woodhall Spa
sanitation
training
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)