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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/281/3434/PJeffreyS1604.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/281/3434/AJeffreySE160613.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jeffrey, Stanley Ernest
Stanley Ernest Jeffrey
Stanley E Jeffrey
Stanley Jeffrey
S E Jeffrey
S Jeffrey
Description
An account of the resource
24 Items concerning Stanley Ernest Jeffrey (1139581 Royal Air Force) who served as a mechanic engineer groundcrew with 102 Squadron at RAF Topcliffe and RAF Pocklington. Collection contains air force documents, engineering course training notebooks, photographs of aircraft and people and includes two oral history interviews.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stanley Jeffrey and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-18
2016-06-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Jeffrey, SE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: This is an interview between Harry Bartlett on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre and Mr Stanley Ernest Jeffrey, a former Flight Mechanic in the Royal Air Force, 102 Ceylon Squadron from 1941 to — 1946. Interview is taking place on the 13th of June at xxxxx Oadby.
HB: That’s the introduction, Stan.
IJ: Yeah. That’s the introduction.
HJ: Yeah.
HB: One of the things we’re interested in Stan, is before the war, I mean obviously you were born somewhere, where — you know, what was your family life before the war?
SJ: Well, I lived in King Street in Oadby and Cross Street in Oadby and I worked at the Imperial Typewriter Company from the last day of the old year 1940 —
IJ: No. 1930 something. Would it’ve been 1934?
SJ: 1934. I left school 1934 of course. Sorry.
HB: Which school was that Stan?
SJ: Oadby School, there was only two schools in Oadby then, the Senior and the Junior. So in the Junior School, in the — when I started school at Junior School in Oadby and then moved to the Senior School in nineteen, [laughs] I get mixed up with the dates — [laughter].
HB: Thirties.
IJ: Thirty-four.
HB: That would be about in the thirties, yeah. What did you do at school? What were your main interests at school?
SJ: Well we did — more or less all schools — the usual school, you know, nothing in particular, that was, what can I say, well we just started school at four, started school in the Junior School at four, from the Junior School we went to the Senior School, that’s on the Leicester Road, Oadby.
IJ: Did you have any interests at school?
SJ: Well not really. We just —
HB: What, what did you enjoy most at school Stan?
SJ: I think I had the schooling really, the teachers were very good to us you know ‘cause we weren’t well off you know, all the kids at school the majority of the time. Yes it was quite nice at school, I enjoyed my schooling really.
HB: So what, what family did you come from Stan?
SJ: There was my mum, dad, I had a brother Aubrey, he died recently.
HB: Oh.
IJ: Ten years ago.
SJ: Ten years ago he died.
IJ: And Aub wanted to go in the Air Force but he had to go down the mines.
SJ: Yes, my brother was very disappointed because he had to go down the mines instead of being in, what he called ‘being in the war’.
HB: What did mum and dad do, what did dad do?
SJ: Dad was — worked in shoes, pressman in shoes.
HB: Was that local or in Leicester?
SJ: Er, it — he was local for a start and he was also at Leicester and mum, she was in the hosiery, and the boots and shoes. [laughter] They both had different jobs, they got work where they could you see.
HB: Yes. So as we get to your leaving school, how did you come to work for Imperial Typewriters?
SJ: Oh, there was a fella, he was the printer at, at the cartwrighter’s, he were a printer and he got me the job.
HB: Oh right.
SJ: He got me the job. He knew me. Me mum went to see him and he got me the job. So I did start school at the last of the old year, 1934 at the Imperial. I worked there until I got called up in — yes, I worked there ‘till I got called up in nine — when were it? I’m getting mixed up with —
IJ: Nineteen forty-one, was it?
SJ: Yeah, in nineteen thirty-four until I got called up in nineteen — oh God.
HB: I think it says on your Service Record early, something like, February 1941, something like that. About February 1941.
SJ: Ah. Yes I think it was about 1941.
HB: Where was, where was Imperial Typewriters at that time?
SJ: At the East Park Road.
IJ: In Leicester.
SJ: In Leicester, East Park Road in Leicester, yeah.
HB: And did er, and did you just go into it or did you go into some sort of apprenticeship?
SJ: I went in as a runabout, I, I were fourteen you see. You started as a runabout and you worked your way through various jobs til I become a foreman.
IJ: Well you did later on,
SJ: Manager yeah,
IJ: Not long before you went into the Air Force.
SJ: That’s right I worked up myself to be a manager at the Imperial —
IJ: But that were after you come out the Forces Stan.
HB: I was just, yeah, I was gonna say, so Imperial Typewriters was an important
SJ: Yes
HB: part of your life before the war.
SJ: Yes
HB: Um, what interests, what interests did you have outside of school before the war Stan?
SJ: Well I didn’t have very little interests.
IJ: Did you go night school Stan?
SJ: I went night school, night school but apart from that there well, there was nothing much in the village then. We had the picture house built, I remember that being built you see and that livened us up a bit, [laughter] somewhere to go at night time. Ahh, but that even closed down, that didn’t last, it lasted a while.
IJ: It were going when the war were on weren’t it?
SJ: Oh yes, yeah.
IJ: So it was after the war when it closed.
SJ: Yes it closed in about, ooh, well after I’d met you and that.
IJ: Oh yeah, yeah, because I mean it was till open when Jan were little, cos we used to take her pictures. So I mean, I think it might have been the sixties when it closed.
SJ: Yeah, as I say it was there for a short while really because as I said, it closed down and it were a shame really because we had do nothing else in the village, there were nothing until the pictures were built in Oadby.
HB: You were doing a bit, you were doing a bit with the Scouts weren’t you?
SJ: You what?
HB: You were in the Scouts weren’t you?
SJ: Yes, yes for a short time. That’s where I met that fella again, who got err, who crashed.
IJ: Hmm —
HB: Yeah, yeah in the, in the, in the accident.
SJ: Yes I met him again. That were funny that was meeting him because you see well when err, when you were detailed to a certain aeroplane and that, perhaps sometimes it had to go in the hangar for a major inspection and perhaps you used to have to follow it in and work on it in there and that’s where I met this fella who, you know, who got shot down yeah.
HB: Yeah, yeah the crash at the um, where the memorial is now yeah. The,so that, that you know, you’ve obviously been called up, when you’ve done, when you’ve done all your training, and you were you know, what was the process, what was, how did they sort of send you out? Did they just —?
SJ: No, well you see, you went to what were called to the school do you see? You went there from errr, I know I come away from there September 1941,
HB: Aha
SJ: yeah September. You had about seventeen, seventeen or eighteen weeks training and then you moved out to a squadron and that’s when I was posted to 102 Squadron in September 1941, I do remember that yeah. And I was with them all through the war years.
HB: So when, when you were posted out, how, how did you feel, how did you feel about going to, you know being posted to 102 Squadron?
SJ: Well it was great really because you felt as though you were doing something towards the war you see? You looked after the engines from you know, and you were, it were nice when we was made, in the latter, that latter part of the war, they made the Ground Crews the same as the Air Crew. The Ground Crew was to a certain aircraft, I was on EEs then, in the latter part of the war.
HB: And from that you formed friendships —
SJ: That’s right
HB: Through that?
SJ: That’s right yes, you went, you were posted to any aircraft to look at in A Flight, I was in A Flight. There was A, B and C Flights with about eight aircraft in each, in each Flight and I was posted to A Flight and I was with A Flight all the while.
HB: Yes. When, when you were working on the aircraft you obviously, you know, you’ve, you’ve done the work, you’ve got to get them ready for the operation. What was that process, getting them ready for the operation?
SJ: Well for a start the aircraft was always out on the dispersal point and you, you were detailed to this one aircraft, EEs towards the latter part of the war, so you went, you went out 8 o’clock in the morning you’re out there doing your inspection. It really [unclear] and sometimes it was about perhaps a 16 hour inspection, a 32 hour inspection [unclear] so the bigger the inspection were the aircraft.
HB: Yes.
SJ: You see, so you had a detailed inspection to do every day and err that, well then sometimes the Air Crew used to come out and they used to have a look over the aircraft and you know, have a chat with us and such like. That were quite nice, quite interesting really that were.
HB: And that, and this is where the bond, the friendship grew?
SJ: That’s right yeah yes, yes we formed quite a lot of friendships with the air air, you didn’t call them sergeants and such like, they were mates of yours really yeah, on our Squadron anyway. I mean you used to come out, perhaps have a fag with them, and a chat, and when they went on operations you always used to have to sign the form 700 which was my work form to, to say I’d done the engines you see and you’d go in when all the Air Crew were ready for Ops, they’d run the engines up, the pilot would, they’d sign to say they were satisfied with the engines and then I’d come out and shut the door and then you’d see, see ‘em off on the Ops. You used to have to sit there at night waiting for ‘em coming back which was quite, it were nice, all the EEs and them in the circuit you know they’re OK, we’d know we’d got ours back you see. And as each one come in we saw each aircraft in.
HB: So did you actually manage the aircraft as they left and as they came back, when they came down onto the ground?
SJ: Yes, seen, seen, seen ‘em off and seen ‘em back, oh yeah. And sometimes, well, well I used to stick a bit of chewing gum on the undercarriage for ‘em, it got a habit, yes I used to [unclear] , that were the good luck charm for ‘em.
IJ: Oh crikey.
HB: On the EEs?
SJ: Yeah on the EEs, yeah and I used to get a bit of chocolate for that [laughter] , from the aircrew and that yeah.
HB: And did, obviously you were there for a long time you know, from 41 through to 46 um.
Doorbell
SJ: That’s all right, it’s only —
HB: It’s all right I can pause —
HB: That’s just a short break in the interview ahh while a friendly neighbour delivers one or two bits and bobs to Stan. Um, we’ll just go back Stan to obviously the length of time you were at Pocklington and er what not. You you had the same aircraft?
SJ: Yeah.
HB: Umm, what was —
SJ: We didn’t from the start we didn’t from the start. You see, what at one time the the Flight Sergeant used to ‘right so and so Stan, Jack you’re on E today, you’re on A ’ he said. And then suddenly it got to it that the same aircraft, the same aircraft and the same ground crew which was, it were more interesting, better for you, you felt as though you were part and parcel of the —
HB: It, it strikes me, from the way you’ve spoken previously that it must have been, quite, umm I won’t say emotional, I would say difficult, to —. You’re looking after the aircraft, you’ve formed these friendships with some of the Air Crew and you’re watching them disappear,
SJ: Hmm.
HB: and obviously there was a possibility that they weren’t going to come back?
SJ: Yeah, yeah. Well we never thought about that, we always thought about them coming back. I never lost an E, in all my, no I never lost an E, not err, not in the latter part. For a start I’d say when you were on any aircraft you see, I did, one aircraft, E, I did lose one aircraft that, he come down shot up with a hundred, hundred holes in.
HB: Phew.
SJ: Yes, he managed to land it. I forget his name now, but he rose in the ranks to Squadron Leader, I forget his name you see. And er, and er of course you saw a lot of that really, you know, crashes and. You used to be fetched out to crashes you know. I mean one crash I did [unclear] , there were seventeen on it, they took the ground crew up and they crashed you see. So we had to sort that out and I didn’t know at the time, it were night time, I didn’t know at the time but the pilot was still in there. When they come in the morning they had to report the pilot still sitting there you see. Yeah, they’d missed him yeah. But anyway, yes we and we also, it was one time perhaps we were stationed in the farmhouse and the farmers and that and the family looked after us through the, oh yeah, perhaps had breakfast with him or something. Oh yes, they were big on breakfasts and that with the, on crash duty yeah.
HB: Hmm. Difficult.
SJ: It were nice, I enjoyed the time there. You see I’d been there all the while with the same fellas and it were quite nice ‘cos you, you formed a bond with them you see and also the Air Crew, and as soon as they’d finished operations of thirty ops they’d take the Ground, they’d take us out for a meal.
HB: Mmm.
SJ: Yeah, I’ve been on one or two [laughter]. As I said I never lost an aircraft in my time. So, yes, before, yes they’d take us out, take us down in the car to Pocklington to the pub and have a meal, come back and sitting on top of the car roof coming back, [laughter] had a good time, all singing and shouting the ground crew and that, we were all one yeah. I think I had about four, four meals. Yeah yeah, I didn’t lose a ground crew, it were quite nice up there for me
HB: Hmm.
SJ: thinking back. It was, it were Hank and Tom and all this lot. One were a tailor, one were a tailor in, err somewhere you know. One were You got to know what they did you know.
HB: 102 Squadron had a range of nationalities in the air crews. Um, was that reflected in the Ground Crew as well, or just —
SJ: No there were some, we did have a group that’d come one time come, perhaps about half a dozen engine and aircraftmen, yeah. We did have that at one time, but normally we had, it were just the lads, you know, the lads who‘d been there on the same aircraft and that and you see you formed this er loyalty and that to the aircrew you see.
HB: So you had, you had four dinners, that’s four crews,
SJ: Yes we had four —
HB: How long, how long would it have, would the aircraft —?
SJ: We had thirty ops
HB: taken the aircraft have taken to do thirty ops?
SJ: They’d done the thirty ops, they’d done the thirty ops and they took us to the local pub yeah. They didn’t err, as I say I never lost a ground crew in the latter part, which was quite chuff really. We all got er, we formed that bond [unclear] for thirty ops and that and seeing them off and back, yeah.
HB: So as you’re coming to the end of your time at Pocklington and then you moved to um err, where did you go after Pocklington?
SJ: Bassingbourn.
HB: Bassingbourn. So you’re coming up to the end of the war, what did you, how did you feel about, at what point did you think this, this ain’t going to last much longer?
HB: Well when the war were over, we were only too pleased it were over and it weren’t the same, it weren’t the same in the Air Force after the, after the war had finished. Well we’ve done it, let’s get out, you know. That’s kind of how it was yeah. Because it, as I say, you formed a bondship with the Air Crew, each Air Crew you see after their first two or three ops you know and that, yeah.
HB: Hmmm. Cos, I mean, in what, about the early part of 1945 you know they were moving towards D Day and all that sort of thing you know. Did you know much about that on the airfield?
SJ: No, no we just carried on you know, every day you did, did the same thing,
HB: Yeah.
SJ: look at the aircraft, see it’s OK but it wasn’t the same as before. You’d think it’s finished, it’s over and done with.
HB: And when when did you and your Ground Crew sort of think to yourselves, or find out. that you were coming towards the end of it?
SJ: Well I think in the latter part, you see and they took, they took us about the second, the second week after the war finished, they took, they took us for a trip over Germany to look at all the bomb damage so we had, we had a quite a good trip out to show us all the bomb damage, yeah. What we’d done. That’s when you started knowing it were over, you know, you’d done your bit, let’s get out.
HB: Hmm, yeah.
SJ: You understand what I mean.
HB: So they, so you were actually in an aircraft, was that your own aircraft?
SJ: Yeah, that’s right it were your aircraft. EEs were our aircraft, we looked after that.
HB: And they, the pilot flew you out over Germany. What was you, what was you f —That must have been a bit of a strange feeling Stan?
SJ: It were nice though.
HB: You see —
SJ: It were nice the way, ‘cos they flew low. Matter of fact I looked up at wotsit Cathedral, cos it were that low going on and all the people were waving to you, you could see all that.
HB: How did, how did you feel when you actually saw what they’d done, the effect of the bombing?
SJ: Yeah, I thought, well I mean when I went out I were in the rear turret, so I had a good view I did. Cos it, it weren’t you know, they were all in their positions, some were sitting in the wotsit, but they gave me the rear turret seat so I was first off and last on ha ha.
HB: [laughter] Was that because of the chewing gum on the aeroplane?
SJ: [laughter] Yeah, I had a good view you see of what happened. All the bomb damage you see.
HB: Hmmm. When, when when you came to actually coming out of the RAF um how did you feel about the sort of attitudes towards Bomber Command, that sort of thing?
SJ: Well, it was, to me, to me I never bothered with me medals because I was that disappointed with how we were treated, you know, Bomber Command, I never bothered. I didn’t get a medal and that. I were in five and a half years and I never got a medal.
HB: And yeah, did you? You say you were disappointed, um what?
SJ: With the attitude of the higher ups, how Churchill treated us, you know. He done nothing, he done nothing really. They did too much damage. What, what killed Churchill was when the last bombing raid on Essen, is it Essen? Where, where they killed, they killed a lot of people and they said it weren’t defended, but it was, it was. Because, err how was it, [pause] they said it, they hadn’t ought to bomb that because it wasn’t a proper bombing raid or something like that.
HB: Hmm right.
SJ: Yeah. They shouldn’t have bombed it, like that. But it was, ‘cos there was, there was a, err they were still using, they were still bombing err us as well as them you see. I won’t say it were tit for tat but we we thought we did a good job you know, to end the war, really.
HB: And that and that feeling towards, you know, as you said, Churchill and the higher ups, um did that affect, did that affect how you looked at the country after, when you came out of the RAF, did that did that affect how you looked at things?
SJ: I don’t think I gave that a thought you know, I’d been, I’d done my bit and I was satisfied what we’d done and that was that.HB: Hmm.
SJ: Yeah.
HB: Hmm. At what point in this, in this time at what point did you meet Iris?
SJ: Did?
HB: Did you meet Iris?
IJ: Yes.
SJ: That was nineteen forty —
IJ: I was sixteen weren’t I,
SJ: Yeah [laughter]
IJ: When you met me and?
SJ: Yes. I met Iris about, oh after I’d been in the Air Force
IJ: Yes.
SJ: for a couple of years or more.
IJ: Yeah that’s right.
SJ: Came home on leave once and I was introduced to Iris at the De Montfort, the De Montfort Hall.
HB: Aaahh.
IJ: Yeah, so that’s when we got together, we had a dance and that were it weren’t it?
SJ: Yeah, yeah. We got married two years after. But it weren’t —
IJ: 1944 we were married.
SJ: 1944 we got married, 1944 yeah.
HB: So you’ve met Iris, you’ve got married, you’ve come to the end of it, you’re coming out of the RAF. Um I think you said earlier that you went back to back to —
SJ: Imperial.
HB: Imperial Typewriters?
SJ: Yes because your jobs, your jobs was er spoken for, you were reserved yes. If you went back, you went back to the same job and everything yes and that’s when we err
IJ: What?
SJ: I had about six weeks leave. I didn’t want to go back to work for six weeks, I thought, well you know, and then I went back, went back after six weeks leave and err I think was it, weren’t it Iris?
HB: Did you, did you just pick up where you left off or did you —? Was your engineering stuff in the RAF useful?
SJ: Yes it seemed a bit tame after, seemed a bit tame after being with the lads.
HB: Hmm.
SJ: I missed the lads when they come out of the forces, yeah. Well you’re bound to after all them years, ain’t you with them?
IJ: Well It’s like the college lads and girls, I’ll bet when they come out they miss all their mates unless they keep in touch with them.
HB: So your, when you actually got back to Imperial Typewriters, um you’ve got your job that’s been reserved for you, you know you sort of start work, the lads that you’ve been with, particularly the ground crew, um how did you, how did you feel about keeping in contact with them?
SJ: Well we kept in touch with one, Eric.
IJ: Yes Eric.
SJ: I kept in touch with him ‘cos he lived near, where were it? Where did he live?
HB: Kettering?
IJ: No.
SJ: About er twenty five mile away.
IJ: I forget where.
HB: I kept in touch with him for quite some time.
IJ: We used to go and see them, haven’t we?
SJ: Yes we used to go and see them, yeah.
HB: Was he the one from Northampton?
SJ: That’s it Northampton.
HB:Right yes I think we mentioned him last time.
SJ: Yes from Northampton, kept in touch with him but he died didn’t he, he died.
IJ: He died yeah.
SJ: I went to see his wife afterwards didn’t I but that’s — when he died —
Iris: She kept in touch for a bit, she sent us Christmas cards and that didn’t she? Then the daughter rang to say that she’d died.
SJ: Yeah.
HB: Did you ever, did you ever get any messages you know about reunions or getting back together or anything like that?
SJ: No, no there was nothing, I’ve never heard of a 102 Squadron reunion at all. Since I’ve been in touch with them they’ve been talking about them now but you see I can’t get up to them at the present time. I’d love to get to one, you know. I mean I’ve been invited ain’t I to —?
IJ: Yeah, oh yes you’ve —
SJ: I’ve been invited, they’ve been in touch, they say I can go to the home at Pocklington.
HB: Hmm yeah.
IJ: We’ll perhaps be able to do that if it —
SJ: I hope to be able to do that one of these days, I might see if I can get back there.
IJ: Well if we can get that wet room done, I mean hopefully if we can get in, we can go there while they’re doing it, you know for at least a week.
SJ: That’s what we’re thinking because they’re going to do the wet room for us you see. They say there’s going to be a bit of a noise for a week and I’m hoping to try, if possible to go for a week whenever they start. It could be six months or more.
Iris: That’s if we can get in.
SJ: Yeah.
HB: That would be really nice.
SJ: They tell me I can because I was on that Squadron for a long while.
HB: Well, yeah I mean, 1941 to ’46 it’s —.
IJ: You were there.
SJ: Yeah.
HB: That’s why, I mean I’m, I come from an era where you know we didn’t have that situation, so it’s hard to think that guys who were together as a team, as a group working every day, you know in war time conditions, um it comes to an end and there doesn’t seem to be much happening afterwards.
SJ: No there was nothing, you think, it were funny really. It took a little while to get used to being back in Civvy Street, as they say, it took a while yeah really. I mean yeah [laughter] you felt like, at one time that I’d like to get back to the lads you know, no disrespect, no disrespect to the wife of course but you miss the lads.
HB: How long, how long before that sort of faded away?
SJ: [pause] Oh I think it took a year or two before it finally, you know because well, you were back in Civvy Street then, which is entirely different to being in the Forces really.
HB: What did you think were the biggest differences at the end of the war when you when you came back to work?
SJ: Well there were the lads and you were, you were all together you know even when you were bombed and that you know.
HB: You got bombed did you?
EJ: Oh yeah, yeah we all went running down the shelter, it were that full of water and we got wet through.
IJ: Where were that Stan?
SJ: Pocklington.
IJ: Was it in Pocklington?
HB: Three foot, three foot deep in water?
SJ: Yeah, yeah [unclear] were full of water yeah. We got err once or twice, as a matter of fact when we got married, that were 1942 when we got married, 1944 sorry, when we got married, and err one aircraft bombed and it took err it damaged another aircraft right at Barnby Moor yeah right at — oh yes, it it bombed this aircraft, I were on leave at the time, come back yeah.
HB: So, so you were [cough] excuse me, actually on the airfield when you got, when it was bombed?
SJ: Yeah, yeah.
HB: Err obviously by the enemy, [laughter] um, so yeah that, hmm yeah so that’s, is that when they were out on operations or had they followed them back or was it just an opportunity?
SJ: Ah well, sometimes they followed ‘em back you know.
HB: Hmm.
SJ: Sometimes they followed them back and one time there were quite a bit of damage done because all the lights were lit up and the aircraft were bombing the airfield.
HB: How many times do you reckon that happened to you?
SJ: Not many times.
HB: Right.
SJ: No not many times it were only about once or twice that were but we had plenty of air raid warnings you know as they were after all airfields you see.
HB: Hmm. Well bearing in mind the time and you need to get something to eat Stan, I think we’ll call it a day and I’ll, I’ll pass this over to the guys at Lincoln but thanks ever so much you know for what you’ve said before and all the photos, it’s absolutely brilliant really because as I say —
SJ: Even so I don’t feel as though I’ve done much.
IJ: Stan can’t quite remember, it’s changed a little bit this last month or two, he can’t he can’t remember quite so much now.
HB: Stan what you can remember is is remarkable and as I say it’s an aspect, that you know the Ground Crews and the way the air stations worked,
SJ: Oh yeah,
HB: And all that. These are things that —
SJ: We did appreciate the grounds crews and they appreciated us.
HB: Yeah.
SJ: They appreciated —
HB: I’m going to turn the tape off now, or the recording, it’s not a tape any more.
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AJeffreySE160613
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Interview with Stanley Ernest Jeffrey. One
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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00:40:43 audio recording
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Pending review
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Harry Bartlett
Date
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2016-06-13
Description
An account of the resource
Stan Jeffrey was a flight mechanic at RAF Pocklington. He discusses the camaraderie between the ground and air crews. He would stick chewing gum to the undercarriage as a good luck charm. Shortly after the end of the war, the ground crew were taken on a flight over Germany to see the bomb damage. He worked for Imperial Typewriters before and after the war.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
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Tina James
102 Squadron
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
Cook’s tour
flight mechanic
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
military service conditions
RAF Pocklington
superstition
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/282/3435/AJenkinsAE160709.1.mp3
d7f55b2a9645816ec63b14a23072b635
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Title
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Jenkins, Alexander Elliott
Alexander Elliott Jenkins
Alexander E Jenkins
Alexander Jenkins
A E Jenkins
A Jenkins
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Alexander Elliott Jenkins (430033 Royal Australian Air Force).
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Jenkins, AE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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RG: Preamble to the interview with Alex Jenkins of 6 Belton Place, Orange, New South Wales, Australia. Alex was a Lancaster pilot in 460 Squadron who was shot down and although he spent some time in a German hospital it was only a matter of a short, a fairly short time. He wasn’t ever in a prison camp. He was returned to the UK and resumed operations in 1945. Interviewers are Rob Gray and Lucie Davison. Also present at the interview was Alex’s wife, Pauline.
AJ: In fact one of my colleagues coming in clipped the top of Lincoln Cathedral and he went, he could have really cracked. Clipped the top and he had to, after that to just, for some reason or other he couldn’t continue but he continued, lost height slowly and finally belly landed [laughs] not all that far from where he’d come down. But he went clean through the biggest chicken farm [laughs] in the whole of England. Can you imagine all of the, all of the God-damned chickens. We renamed him after that for obvious reasons.
RG: Chook.
AJ: Chook.
LD: Do the intro.
RG: Hmmn?
LD: Do the intro.
RG: Yeah. I’ll just do a quick intro, Alex. This is an interview with Alex Jenkins. Former pilot with 460 Squadron.
AJ: Yes.
RG: And survivor of being shot down. Interview. The date is the 8th of July. Interviewees are Rob Gray and Lucie Davison. So do you want to lead off?
LD: Yeah. Look, I’ve basically, I’ve kind of, you know compiled just a little order of service but it’s really just to make sure that we try and cover all bases.
AJ: Yes.
LD: You know.
AJ: Yeah.
LD: It’s certainly not meant to be definitive. So —
AJ: I know. You’ve got to have some guidance.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Yeah, it’s —
RG: But on the other hand also this way, because you’ve done interviews and things before haven’t you?
AJ: Yes. Some time back I had an interview. Pauline. My memory, by the way is, short term memory, is very, very poor now. I’ve been a bit ill and so on and I can’t remember accurately even some of the simple things.
RG: Oh yes.
AJ: So Paul, when she comes in, if there’s something that I can’t remember she knows a fair bit about it.
RG: She’ll know about it. Yeah. Ok. I was going to say though that we were particularly interested in, like your personal recollections.
AJ: Yes.
RG: So if something comes to mind.
AJ: Right.
RG: Please feel free to divert from the original question.
AJ: Yeah. Right. Right.
RG: So Lucie do you want to —
LD: Yeah. Just interested in your background and, you know, where you grew up.
AJ: Right.
LD: And why you joined the air force initially.
AJ: Yeah.
LD: And so on.
AJ: Yes. That’s rather interesting because it starts really with the history of my father who was terribly knocked around in the First World War. In the, in France. He wasn’t at Gallipoli, but he was in France. In the gunnery groups. And he was gassed and terribly injured. Came back home. And from the time he arrived home just before the war finished in France, he was in and out of military hospitals. Never really recovered enough long term and as a result of that — and my mother was born way up in the Kelly country of North Eastern Victoria with the, her surname was Cann. C A N N. Now, C A N N.
LD: Cann River.
AJ: Now, Cann River and all those things were well documented. The Canns were horse breakers and they were rabble rousing. And in fact William Cann, and this is not apocryphal, William Cann was the principal horse breaker and roustabout in the Kelly gang.
RG: Ah ok.
AJ: And William Cann, he was actually jailed after the shoot-up and so on and served his time. And as my dear mother used to say, ‘Don’t you mention that you’ve got a relative — ?’ [laughs] Most people were very interested. Particularly since he was the one who used to, they had a little tin with a bit of wire around and, and make the fires. It was nicknamed — billy can.
RG: Billy can. yes. Yeah.
AJ: Billy can.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That’s where the term first started to be used. Used. It’s in —
RG: Of course. Yes.
AJ: The Billy can.
RG: William Cann. Yes.
AJ: Anyway, my father was in and out and he, on my eighteenth birthday I was one of the first Legacy awards. We were raised in the slums of Toorak. Toorak, you know, down by the railway lines in those days was a cut-throat area. It was criminals, and God knows.
RG: That’s like Surry Hills in Sydney at the same time. That sort of —
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That was my raising. We were very, very poor. I was brought back from the country where my mother was — she went there I think after they got together. I’m not quite sure how they got together straight after the war. But I was a sort of lad that was caught up in the Samuel McCaughey whip around in the north. I think, darling that if you wouldn’t mind when we have the tea that you sit here too with me as I —
PJ: Why. I’ve heard it all a thousand times before [laughs]
AJ: I mean, I was saying my memory is pretty terrible in various things. Anyway, she [pause] I was brought down under the state government’s attempt to round up these uneducated wild kids.
LD: Right.
AJ: Of which I was one. And we were forcibly removed from the family in North Eastern Victoria, black books, and brought to Melbourne for our own good. Shades of the roundup of the aborigines.
LD: Yes. Absolutely.
RG: Oh yes. There was more than one stolen generation.
AJ: As a result of that I was often in sort of foster care. And my mother was ill. Etcetera etcetera. And dad had had such a terrible life that —
[background chat]
AJ: It was impossible, it was quite impossible for me to forget that sort of thing. And my dad finished up, when I’d turned, was approaching eighteen I was fortunately a gifted kid in education. And I finally got to Melbourne Boy’s High and had an excellent career there and my legacy guardian was none other than Bill Woodfall. The great cricketer.
RG: Oh ok.
AJ: And they, oh they were wonderful people and they looked after me. And I, as 1942 turned over I found myself at Melbourne University in first year. So —
RG: What, what discipline?
AJ: In engineering.
RG: Engineering.
AJ: Engineering yes. And metallurgy. Materials. So I, at the time when I’d completed first year university at Melbourne that would be ’42. I felt, on my eighteenth birthday, dad was in Bundoora Mental Asylum, behind the wire.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Terrible.
RG: As a result of the war.
AJ: Yeah. And I said I’m going to get even for dad and so I joined up at eighteen. On my eighteenth birthday. 29th of October 1942. Well, all hell broke loose because that was a protected profession.
LD: Yes.
AJ: You weren’t allowed to join the service.
LD: Yes. I was wondering how you could join up.
[background chat]
AJ: I got as far as Somers camp and the university and the government people forced, came down and said, ‘You’re coming back. You’re man-powered. You can’t join the services.’ I went back to Melbourne Uni and I stood before the enquiry group of the profession and some of the representatives of the professorial board at Melbourne University and the government official who was man-powering people. I said, ‘I’ve got news for you. You can all get stuffed. I’m not going to continue my course. I’m going to join the service.’ Prof Greenwood was the professor. An English don of the old school.
RG: The old school.
AJ: He was a wonderful bloke. He was called the pink professor simply because he spoke out, you know, more on moral social issues.
LD: So pink as in shades of communist.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Shades of red.
AJ: Yeah. And he fought for me and he won. He said, ‘This man must be allowed to serve. And join and serve. He has had such provocation. And we will see him on his return when he can resume his course.’ Well, that was it then. I joined the air force. Went in to training at Benalla and went solo and so on there. And after a lot of argy bargy after I’d completed the conversion on to Wirraways at Deniliquin. The great Australian fighter. We graduated to get our wings. You know, to become young sergeant pilots. Well, in the interim, just briefly I had been leading a small group of three on our last, final flight before graduation. Now on a long cross country to be twenty, fifty feet above all obstacles. Low flying exercise. And as part of that low flying exercise by tradition we used to bring the Wirraway down. You could imagine at nearly two hundred miles per hour and the great wheat fields, if they were in that stage —
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Which they were when I was ready for graduation you’d bring it down, you’d look in your rear vision mirror and when you were cutting a furrow along the top of the wheat.
RG: You were low enough.
AJ: You were low enough. But —
LD: So, six feet will do.
AJ: Three of us. And the trouble was that the farmers, they hated this practice.
RG: I can’t understand why.
AJ: Because, you know this was low. We had to get the low flying experience. And the air force had the horror of seeing me charged by the civilian.
RG: Authorities. Yeah.
AJ: They appealed you see, and I was made an example. I was the leader of that flight. And so instead of just rapping me over the knuckles and saying, ‘Don’t do it again because you’re so close to graduation,’ I got sentenced to twenty eight days in the Geelong jail.
RG: My God.
AJ: As a civilian. As a young man in training. It caused such a colossal outcry. You know, here what the hell is it coming to.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: If a guy can’t train for war and the civilians say he can’t do that.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Anyway, it was famous. People went through all the business and when I got out.
LD: So you did have to serve the time.
PJ: Oh yes.
LD: The RAF wasn’t able to —
AJ: Oh it was terrible because they brought all the rapists and the murderers down from the Queensland coast. They were frightened of the Jap invasion up there. And they were all, all of the worst types. And myself at eighteen and another young lad. A young bloke. I don’t know what his offence was. We served, but we served, and you could imagine what those nasty bastards. I didn’t know anything about male practices on other males. I was innocent. But finally we turned around and the other bloke and myself and we were young. Fit. And we belted some of these, some of these vicious saddoes and guards up. And they took it out on us and really did us over. Anyway, the end of the twenty eight days came, and I got back to Deniliquin, and graduation. Another month. I was a month behind after my internment. And the graduation came, and everyone, step forward so and so, sergeant so and so, step forward so and so such. And the Hs, you were doing it. And the I’s. The J’s came and went, and my name wasn’t mentioned. K L M N and right through to the end. And then there was a bit of a drum roll and the commanding officer and the big wigs thing there then said, ‘Step forward Pilot Officer Alexander Jenkins.’ They commissioned me of course. And that —
RG: And that’s, that would have been extremely unusual.
AJ: Oh that did. That caused. Anyway it was so bad in many ways. The whole history of the event. The parliament had gone crazy about this sort of stupidity.
LD: So you’d be there [unclear]
AJ: Two weeks later I was on a troop ship. Fast troop ship.
PJ: Just to digress so you can have another mouthful and another piece of cake or a biscuit or something. This went into limbo as far as Alex was concerned. He had to appear in court on a driving, a possible driving offence. He was not convicted but the barrister representing him said, ‘Alex, you didn’t tell me you’d already been in jail.’ And it was still on the records.
RG: Records. Yeah.
PJ: That he’d been in jail. So that was then. They did the right thing and removed it but you know he’d forgotten all about it at this stage.
RG: You would wouldn’t you? After, you know, you would.
PJ: He was sixty or something, you know and anyhow —
AJ: Being an officer and two hundred and fifty airmen. Sergeants, you know. Navs, pilots and so on, on this troop ship which took us solo straight over to the —
PJ: San Francisco.
RG: Oh.
PJ: You went to —
AJ: Coast up to San Francisco. And from there —
PJ: You went over. You were based in that. You know there’s that big base on that island there by the harbour of San Francisco.
AJ: Past Alcatraz. Yeah.
RG: Oh ok. Yeah.
PJ: San Francisco.
AJ: But from there on —
RG: Yeah.
AJ: As an officer I, it was fortunate that I suppose I was because we did our training.
PJ: But at your exercise in New York he was billeted out with the McGraw-Hill, the McGraw-Hill book people.
RG: Oh yeah. The publishers. Yes.
PJ: The millionaires. So he was billeted with them and they carted him around and he ended up meeting people and singing with Jimmy Durante and —
LD: Oh wow.
AJ: Lena Horne.
PJ: Lena Horne.
AJ: Lena Horne and I became very firm dance partners etcetera. It was quite a, quite a business and then —
RG: Quite an adventure for a young man from —
PJ: That’s right. From the bush in Victoria.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: It was fascinating.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Do you remember the name of the ship that you went on?
AJ: No. I don’t, darling.
PJ: On the ship. Let me think. Was it the Mariposa?
AJ: No. It wasn’t a —
PJ: It was —
AJ: I think it was the Lurline.
PJ: Yeah. Well the Lurline, wasn’t the Lurline the one that came across? It will be there in your, in your book.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: I’ll have a look and see if it’s there.
LD: Well that’s alright. It was just —
RG: It was just —
AJ: But anyway —
PJ: I’ll just have a look and see if it’s in his history there.
AJ: Eventually after about a month in New York the great convoy was formed and off we go. And that was —
LD: So, you did go across as part of a convoy.
AJ: A tremendous convoy.
LD: Right.
AJ: And accompanied by American flat top battleships. You know, the ones that had no structure on top.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Just guns.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: Things like that. We lost an awful lot of boats.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Of course. It was submarine attacks.
RG: So this was the end of ’42 wasn’t it?
AJ: This would be —
RG: What? Early ’43?
AJ: ’42 I joined. ’43. ’43.
RG: [Unclear] Battle of the Atlantic. Yeah.
AJ: And I got to Britain and my first thought as I saw Liverpool and all these barrage balloons. I said, ‘God almighty if they cut those balloons the bloody island would sink.’
LD: So, so did you arrive directly in Liverpool?
AJ: Hmmn?
LD: Did you arrive directly in Liverpool?
AJ: Yes.
LD: Or did you go around through Greenock.
AJ: No. No.
LD: Ok.
AJ: Directly in Liverpool. And from there the Australian contingent was taken down to, eventually down to Brighton on the south coast where we [pause] I did various training things. Learning to — how to get out of parachutes if you landed in water and all that sort of thing.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I wouldn’t call it nonsense but it was very very tough.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Activity. And I had.
RG: So that was sort of survival training.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Eventually I was.
LD: Sorry, was that done at Brighton or was that done —?
AJ: Yes. That sort of introduction to survival and elementary training in use of parachutes and things like that was all done at Brighton.
LD: Wow.
AJ: And then you were, well I was eventually posted up to places. I had completed first year uni and therefore in training I had a good mathematical background etcetera.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And so they fast-tracked me in training in the centre part of England for eventual allocation to the famous Mosquito high flying.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: PRU. Photo reccy unit.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And I was completely just flying so high, so fast.
RG: Did you have a multi engine licence at this point?
AJ: I was trained.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I went on first on Oxfords and that kind of.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Standard training for me. But that PRU interval — I thought this is great. Flying that fast and no one could see you or shoot you. That only lasted a couple of weeks because they said, ‘Look, we’re now Bomber Command.’ This is coming through now. The year would be ’44. And they said, ‘You’re, Bomber Command for you lad.’
RG: So when did you arrive in Britain, Alex? When was that?
AJ: I arrived in Britain in December ’43 and spent all of ’44.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Right through ‘til the end of the war.
RG: Yeah. Ok.
AJ: Ok.
RG: Just trying to get a sort of timeline on it.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That’s right. I was rapidly put into the Bomber Command thing. They were taking pilots from anywhere they could get them because the losses from Bomber Command were so —
RG: Well they had, the losses were, well the Battle of Berlin was just running down then wasn’t it and —
LD: Horrendous.
AJ: And I actually joined the squadron, 460 at the very last part of December ’44. So I, fortunately missed out on the Battle of Berlin and all that sort of thing. But I’d been flying at that time up and down the coast in our training, dropping aluminium foil and trying to assist in the confusion.
RG: The deception for D-day.
AJ: Yes.
RG: Was that, was that in Mosquitos? Was that in Mosquitos you were doing that? Or in —
AJ: No. No. Lancasters.
RG: Lancs. That was Lancs. Yeah.
AJ: Lancasters.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: That was part of the training. So that that went through. D-day came and went and by that time I had not joined a squadron but aircraft like ours were deployed on all sorts of weird jobs. You know, we would fly way up to, right along the French coast, over the North Sea, dropping this aluminium foil.
RG: Yeah. The Window.
AJ: And D-day came and went. And then the awful business of starting to do, being injected into the bomber stream with, before the squadron. Before I joined 460.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I’d completed all of about half a dozen raids into the German areas near the coast.
RG: While you were under training.
AJ: While training.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: They were —
RG: They had the spoof.
AJ: We were losing so many aircraft.
LD: I know.
AJ: And of course when the jets came in, the ME262 jets came in around about October, I think of 1944. And our losses were just so, there was no answer to it. And so by the time I was finally allocated to 460 Squadron myself and my crew were well versed in some of these dangers. And the —
LD: So was this a crew that was set up within the OTU or —
AJ: I beg your pardon?
LD: The crew that you joined the squadron with.
AJ: Yes.
LD: Did you guys set up within the OTU or —
AJ: Yes.
LD: Right. Ok.
AJ: That’s right.
RD: Yeah.
AJ: It was a fairly standard practice that I went through once I was on the, on to the heavy aircraft.
RG: Can I ask you, Alex, how did that crewing up occur? Because we’ve spoken to other veterans and it’s a mixed bag between people actually just finding oh we need a pilot. There’s someone over there. We’ll just grab him. And a bit more formalised.
LD: Some people even meeting in a pub.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: So how did yours work?
AJ: Actually that was quite strange the way that crews were formed. Now let me think. The crew that I finally, my first crew it would be at [pause] let me think.
PJ: This is Campbell in all this lot.
AJ: Yes. That’s right. Now where the devil did that take place? But the system was, I might remember where it was. Somewhere in central England. Firstly, you’d get up, the officer group and there were only a few officer, officer pilots because the pilot was the, was the first. He was the senior man.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: Crew captain.
RG: Captain. Yeah.
AJ: The pilots that were officers, firstly stood up on this platform and there was all these —
[background chat]
PJ: Alex is deaf. Very deaf. So he wears a hearing aid but you might have to speak up a bit.
RG: Yes. OK.
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: Anyhow, I think it was the Lurline, Alex. I can’t find it, but I think it was —
AJ: At Lichfield.
PJ: No. The Lurline. The ship you went out on.
AJ: Oh the Lurline. Yeah.
PJ: The Lurline. But —
AJ: Anyway, the pilots, officer pilots would stand up first and give a bit of a spiel saying, you know, where they’d trained. Because a lot of them had trained in Canada.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Some in South Africa.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And I stood up and said I was trained fully in Australia and commissioned off the course. Which was most unusual.
RG: Yes. Yeah.
AJ: I didn’t go into the fact that I was in jail [laughs]
RG: It might have scored points with you Alex.
AJ: Yeah. And after that, you know the other pilots would get up and do the same and then the meeting in the great hall would dissolve from formalities and you’d just wander around. And then you’d have groups of guys. Gunners would tend to, they tended to stick together. And the navigators and the w/op wireless operator blokes. They’d all, they’d be talking and some of them had teamed up with another group. And they’d come up and talk to the pilot. Many of the pilots. And after a while things sort of settled down and I got, in my crew, I got, there were two Englishmen, ‘cause the first Englishman had to be the bloke sitting at the front with you on the right.
RG: The engineer.
AJ: Not the pilot.
RG: The engineer.
AJ: Hmmn?
RG: The engineer.
AJ: Yeah. Flight engineer. Because they weren’t trained out here. They were almost invariably Englishmen.
RG: Oh. Were they? Oh. Ok.
AJ: And the man who I, who came up to me had been in the army and was highly skilled. He was thirty two years of age. An old man.
RG: Yeah.
LD: That was an old man.
AJ: But his rank, I think was oh, major I think.
RG: Wow.
AJ: Frank Stone was his name. A real gentleman.
RG: Was he a sergeant then or was he still commissioned?
AJ: No. He’d re-joined —
RG: Yeah.
AJ: The air force as a pilot officer.
RG: Right. Ok So that’s a big come down though from major to pilot.
AJ: A big come down. He was, I remember he was the first guy. So I had, as the pilot, the flight engineer, Pilot Officer Frank Stone. And he had, for some reason or other known this rear gunner and he, those two joined me. And then the other group of Aussies — the mid-upper gunner, the navigator and the wireless operator were all Australians. A couple of them were, one of them was commissioned. Now, who would that be? Anyway, one was commissioned. And so that’s the way the crew was formed. Well, we went finally, as a crew. We got posted to 460 Squadron which was, you know, we all thought oh that’s it because 460 had a great reputation and what’s his name? The VC.
PJ: Hughie Edwards.
AJ: Hughie Edwards.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Was at that time the 460.
LD: Apparently, he was the world’s worst driver.
RG: Oh was he? [laughs]
LD: Yes. He had a Mercedes.
RG: He was a pilot. Yeah [laughs]
AJ: He was a shocking pilot. Oh my God.
PJ: And then he had a Mercedes and apparently, he had more dents in it because there was a 460 Squadron —
AJ: But everybody said that you fly with Hughie [laughs] at your own risk. But he was charismatic.
PJ: Yeah.
AJ: How he could instil wonderful, wonderful feelings amongst his squadron.
PJ: One of those, one of those sort of pulling off bays, you know, along the highway. In Canberra.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yes. Hughie Edwards bay.
PJ: There was a Hughie Edwards there and his brother that was, that must have been put in, I suppose seven or eight years ago. I can’t remember but we were down there.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: It’s been a while.
PJ: And his brother was there, and he was telling a story of what a frightful driver. He had a Mercedes and he had more dents in it than you could poke a stick at.
AJ: Anyway, I’m probably getting too far ahead for your questions.
LD: No. No. We’re actually.
RG: No. No. it doesn’t matter. We’re actually ticking them off as we go. Just carry on Alex.
AJ: I started flying in combat from 460 right on [pause] almost New Year’s Day of ’45. When the, I’d been flying in, in to but not in to direct combat. We were doing interjections before that as a crew.
RG: So was that the sort of the spoof raids?
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Those sorts of things. Anyway, the first real operation was either New Year’s Day or immediately after. And —
PJ: Weren’t you involved in that Battle of the Bulge? Where, you know, there was such terrible weather.
AJ: Yeah. Yeah.
PJ: That was New Year’s. That was Christmas Day.
AJ: Yeah. Well that’s —
RG: Oh that’s right. Christmas.
PJ: It was terrible weather.
AJ: It was awful weather.
PJ: Nobody could have — the Germans couldn’t come in and the —
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: What’s the name of the town?
AJ: We were all grounded.
PJ: I’m trying to think of the name of the town.
AJ: The bomber force was grounded because of the weather.
PJ: Because there’s a memorial to the Yanks.
AJ: And then it lifted and oh God they launched everything including training aircraft against the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge. Anyway, my first raid was done as what they called a second dickie.
LD: Oh yes.
AJ: That’s a senior pilot and his crew would take you. You’d sit there in the flight engineer’s seat.
RG: Little seat. Yeah.
AJ: And you went through the raid and learned that whatever and if you were lucky you’d return. They didn’t like second dickie trips. I’ve taken a few too on when I was skilled.
RG: Yeah. When you were — yeah.
AJ: And you never liked them because for some reason or other they seemed they were cursed.
PJ: Bring you bad luck.
AJ: Bring you bad luck. Yeah. It was a fair few. Well, ok I started after that with the crew and we had a series of raids which I won’t go into but near the, on about the 20th or something of February we went to Dresden. Awful. Awful. You know the story of Dresden and so on. How we, most of us just made it back because the tremendous long trip to Dresden and the awful conflagration. I’ve often been back to Europe with Pauline.
PJ: Well, when we were in Prague. He wouldn’t go to Dresden.
AJ: We’ve had opportunities to go back to Dresden.
PJ: That was only a couple of years ago.
AJ: Just over the border and I just said no. I just can’t. I’ve never returned to Dresden.
PJ: One of the most interesting things I find with history is its very one sided. It depends who’s telling the story.
RG: Absolutely.
PJ: And you get an enormous amount and when I, ‘cause this is the second marriage for both Alex and I but we’ve now been married thirty two years so it’s been a long, a long hard road [laughs
AJ: I lost my first wife, the mother of my kids to cancer. Breast cancer.
PJ: Anyhow, the thing is that when I first married Alex he was still having nightmares about the Dresden raid etcetera and so forth and you hear a lot about the horror of the Dresden raid, but you seldom hear about the horrors of Coventry. You know, if you go to the cathedral and you see walls left and that amazing cross and so on.
RG: Been to the cathedral. Yes. Yeah.
PJ: You seldom hear this. You seldom hear. And when I was first in Europe in, because I wasn’t in the war, I’m younger than Alex but I was first in the Europe in ’54 ’55. So I was there for the tenth anniversary of the end of the war and so on. And I went through Hamburg. I went through Germany and I couldn’t believe it. You wouldn’t know there was a war there because the Marshall plan had rebuilt everything.
RG: Rebuilt. Yeah.
PJ: But London was still derelict.
RG: Yes.
PJ: All around St Paul’s was still flattened and so on.
RG: Yeah. In fact, just last night we were watching a film which was made in London in — 1953 was it?
LD: ‘51
RG: ‘51. Yeah It was in —
PJ: Still all the bomb damage.
RG: It was in the city and there was buildings down everywhere
AJ: Well, I’d better continue hadn’t I?
PJ: Oh yeah. Sorry.
PJ: That was my fault Alex.
AJ: No. No. It was —
PJ: The history is interesting.
AJ: It is interesting.
RG: It is.
PJ: Interesting.
AJ: After the Dresden we got home and the, the three nights later we went to Dortmund. A bombing raid which was pretty rough. Pretty terrible. And coming home it was midnight. Snow on the ground. And the worst possible conditions for bomber aircraft because it was heavy cloud low down. Full moon. And just above the top of the cloud which was at our return flying height, so we were in and out.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: But often silhouetted.
RG: Yeah. Silhouetted.
AJ: Against the white cloud below. We were caught by — over the German Belgian border by a Messerschmitt 262. Jet.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: They were so fast. Fully armed with cannon.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Not just machine guns. And it blew the starboard wing of my Lancaster clean off. I mean there was no, no, you know, pilot stay in his seat, hold it until the rest of the crew baled go.
RG: Just go.
AJ: And the poor crew of course who were serving. They were at their desks and so on. Never. Their parachutes were strapped to the side of the Lancaster.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: So they always had to somehow get to them, put them on.
RG: And then get out.
AJ: While I held the aircraft.
RG: But you couldn’t do that.
AJ: Theoretically in a position where they could bale out. Well there was none of that because the cannon blew the starboard wing right and the aircraft just disintegrated at twenty two thousand feet. We all went out. I never saw my crew again. Naturally. They fell to their deaths. And I, being a pilot, occasionally you’ll see this in the record in such a case the armour plated bucket seats, which I’m sitting on, sitting on your parachute went out like a cork out of a champagne bottle.
RG: The whole seat.
AJ: The whole seat. Yeah. And I don’t remember anything of that naturally. Just the disintegration. Nothing. I must have fallen. Well, I obviously did because I came to at about two thousand feet. And there’s no steel seat. Somehow that had got lost in the fall down and the parachute harness was still on me but the parachute was unopened. There’s a stick sort of thing.
RG: Handle. Yeah.
AJ: And on fire just above my head.
RG: On fire.
AJ: Yeah. And this great hero at that stage looked down and here’s a church. And we were in a little a place called Lummen in Belgium. And I looked at that and so help me, this is written up and it’s quite true. There’s no exaggeration. You know, I’m a few seconds from death. What do you think the great hero thought at that time? Christ, if I don’t bloody do something that, that’s going to go up my arse. True [laughs]
LD: [laughs] Well it would have looked very small from that height too wouldn’t it?
AJ: Talk about anti-climax. I think people who ask me what’s my, my biggest memories. I said that little thing [laughs] I thought oh gawd. So I gave the rip cord a tug and so help me this burning sticker top opened up just sufficient because I landed in the church yard.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Not on the steeple.
AJ: Not on the steeple. And I think, they say I landed in the peach tree, somewhere near, in the gravestones and so on. In any event I survived the fall. It was in no man’s land. And the Luftwaffe were in charge at that time around that part and of course we had some respect for the, or a great deal of respect actually for the massed combatant. Combatants of the Luftwaffe and there wasn’t —
PJ: And he was also quite seriously injured.
AJ: Wasn’t particularly, if you’d seen the Wehrmacht or something they would have slit my throat. I believe, quite soundly, I was finished in a field hospital of which the Germans were in charge and they saved my life. And all things went on in there and I won’t go through that but some time later —
PJ: They were retreating. The Germans were retreating and left him behind.
AJ: Eventually the Canadians moved through the area and I remember being interviewed there. I spoke up for the Luftwaffe nurses and staff.
RG: Did they leave staff there? Just for interest’s sake, some staff?.
AJ: Yeah. They didn’t want to get back with the, because they didn’t want to go to Russian front.
RG: Oh. Ok. Yeah.
AJ: And I said these people had treated me very very well. I honoured them and they wished to be taken in charge as prisoner of war ectera. ‘Yes. Yes. That can be done. But you’re under arrest.’
RG: Alex, this is becoming a habit [laughs] you know that don’t you?
AJ: And this was, this was a pommie colonel.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Oh did I give him hell.
RG: Why did he say you were under arrest though?
AJ: Good question. You know, I said the same thing, ‘What the f’ing hell are you talking about?’ Anyway, he went out and about an hour later he came back.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And he confirmed some of the basis of the story that I was saying.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And the point was that he raised that issue early because such was the loss, terrible losses of our crews.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: I must have to be sorry to say that it’s not often mentioned in the records. Many of our bomber crews cracked under the strain.
RG: Yeah. Yes.
AJ: And they used to fly over such places to become prisoners.
RG: Yes.
AJ: Or even better to get into Sweden, Switzerland or something and save themselves. They’d had enough. They were cracking.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And really the Germans were winning the air war. There was no doubt about it.
PJ: Yeah. If Hitler wasn’t such an idiot, he would have won.
AJ: He would have. He would have won. All he had to do was keep on going a little bit longer, you know. But anyway as a result of that I was pulled back to Britain some, a week, or ten days. I forget the length of time, later. And instead of being repatriated home immediately which was the usual thing the wonderful base commander, also an Australian. And that was —
RG: Don’t ask me what his name was. I can’t remember.
AJ: Binbrook was —
RG: This was the base commander not the squadron commander.
AJ: That’s right.
RG: Yes.
PJ: [unclear]
AJ: I was flying with the Australian commander at that time. I forget his name now. But the base commander was an Australian too.
PJ: Cowan. Wasn’t it? The base, not the base commander but Cowan.
AJ: No. Cowan was the guy who came in. His crew I finally picked up.
PJ: I can’t remember the name of that fellow. I met him at that —
AJ: No. Anyway he said Alex I’m going to ask you a pretty terrible thing. He said we now have, because of the losses being brought about by the jet aircraft which Churchill refused to allow our air force commander Butch Harris to try and describe to we, the crew because Churchill believed that we’d all surrender.
LD: So did you not —
RG: Did you know about those?
LD: You were not informed that these aircraft —
AJ: No. We were kept in the dark about these engineless things.
PJ: Aircraft.
AJ: That were shooting us down. It was deliberate by Churchill because he had no faith in Bomber Command. He hated the bloody air force. Anyway, he said, ‘I want you to stay here and to pick up the new squadron commander, Wing Commander Cowan.’ He had no experience anyway. He was barred from flying. Anyone above the rank of full squadron leader was barred from flying, because of our losses. And he said, ‘We can’t, we have his crew who were perfectly ready to take over, but they won’t have a pilot. We want you to volunteer to continue in action.’ I said, well I thought about it for about one second and said, ‘Yes, I’ll volunteer.’ So, I was appointed the pilot and commander of the new untested crew. Mainly Aussies. And —
RG: I wanted to ask. Can I just ask, how did that, so they worked up that they were the wing commander’s, Wing Commander Cowan’s crew. They’d worked up with him, trained with him and whatever. And then he goes and you, you jump in.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: How did it work out with them? How did you —
PJ: He’s still friendly with — there’s one in Melbourne.
AJ: Yeah. Well the camaraderie within the squadron was absolutely tremendous. Even though we were being shot to ribbons. And people respected me because they all believed I was dead. When I turned up [laughs] I just rescued my tin in the steel box of personal goods from the, that’s called the graveyard down in London. They used to take —
RG: Sorry, what was that? They used to take the stuff down to what was known as the graveyard.
AJ: When crews went missing or were killed in action. And there were many. Their personal belongings were generally put in a big steel trunk. Sent down to London to the, ‘dead meat factory.’
PJ: Then to be shipped home.
AJ: And then shipped home
RG: We were going to ask you about that if you don’t mind. The Committee of Adjustment term that we’ve heard which is very little information on.
PJ: Never heard of it.
LD: These were the people who picked up —
PJ: Oh yes.
RG: It’s an old term from the nineteenth century. It’s an old British army term and I’ve heard it in Bomber Command. That how, when a crew went missing, were killed that process of who, who did it. And it varied in different squadrons and stuff.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Who came and picked their kit up.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: And we’ve also heard about censoring. That they’d go through and —
AJ: It was the same committee that — I’ve heard of it. I don’t know much about their operations because they were — you didn’t want to know.
RG: No. No. You wouldn’t.
AJ: But they were the ones too who used to pick up the belongings of people who cracked up in combat. Many of us did, you know. Many, many guys would return and they’d be [pause] and they were sentenced. Sentenced. Think of the modern treatment of such people. LMF. Lack of moral fibre.
RG: Lack of moral fibre.
LD: That’s another —
AJ: That was the worst term in the air force.
LD: Yes. Yes.
AJ: Lack of moral fibre.
RG: So what happened, again LMF is naturally there is very little information because no one wants to —
LD: And what you read is so inconsistent.
RG: Yeah. And different squadrons, different groups seemed to do this different in different, well the Canadians did it differently from us.
AJ: That’s right. They all had their certain people that looked after that. And they were ostracised. It was almost too, too much to bear to talk to such people. You know, you’d be, even as an officer in the permanent quarters where my room were because I was a pretty senior officer, combat officer. And, you know, you’d be at breakfast or something after a raid or [pause] and, you know, ‘Where are they? What’s happened?’ And they these people would take over. And when you saw them I could recognise them, but they never socialised with any of us.
RG: Who were they?
AJ: I don’t know.
RG: Were they officers?
PJ: Were they part of the air force?
RG: Were they officers or were they —
PJ: Were they part of the air force or civilians?
AJ: Oh yes. They were air force guys.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: They would dress just like the rest of us but from memory now, that’s right, they had a tag. A tag up here and if you saw them we used to, well we had various words for them. Death heads or something or other. I forget now. But there was no camaraderie with such people. They were terrible around. They had an awful job to do.
RG: They did didn’t they.
AJ: But in my case, I got back. I take over Wing Commander Cowan’s crew and away we go. And from thereafter I think we did another ten or fifteen combat bombing trips. Some finished up in daylight with the American Forts. I admired them, the Yanks. Even though they were bombastic bastards [laughs] we used, we used to fight like hell in the pubs. They were always, we reckoned chasing our women. Our women. We used to call the ladies from Grimsby that we’d invite out to the officer’s mess, famous mess out there called the Village Inn, the Grimsby night fighters. For obvious reasons. But they were, they were lovely, lovely lasses. And strangely enough it wasn’t a sexual trend although that obviously went on. But it was, they were, they seemed to accept their role in a beautiful manner. They’d calm you down when you were dancing, and these are the memories now that are very strong in my mind.
RG: Yes.
AJ: Since the horrors and the trauma of my experience after my recent illnesses for some reason has faded away.
RG: Faded away.
AJ: And I am now touching ninety two and as Pauline says I have a, I don’t have the awful trauma. Only the funny things
RG: The good ones.
AJ: Of the Grimsby, of the Grimsby girls.
PJ: In your second stint, that was when you did Operation Manna.
AJ: Yeah, that’s interesting. As Pauline has just said. After [pause] no. Before the war finished the — a group of Germans and the whole of Belgium and Holland was grounded. It was sealed by Montgomery’s army. And Hitler being Hitler refused any suggestion that these people, that the German and there was a hell of a lot of Germans there, should surrender. And therefore the Red Cross and International Red Cross I think it was mainly who organised a cease fire in order that Lancasters, because of their great load carrying ability would be used to drop food to the starving Dutch.
PJ: Yeah. All the dykes had been busted.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: So Holland was all flooded so there was no production of food.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. It was impossible to get any other way.
AJ: That was amazing. I did about three. Three or four of those.
RG: That was amazing thing, wasn’t it?
AJ: And the worst thing about it was that there were only certain areas that you could drop this food and the stuff we were dropping, you know. Big two hundred pound bag of potatoes and bulky packets.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Of all sorts of food wired up in our own bomb bays. And we’d release those at about, to nearly two hundred mile an hour. We had to fly no higher than a thousand feet over all of the approaches to this area. And the German gunners were, this was unofficial trips.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: You could see, you could set the watches on the —
RG: 11 o’clock. We’ll, yeah, it’s over.
AJ: And we I remember so well the time when the plane in front of me in this great field that was up above the flood waters fence. And all around the fence would be the German troops keeping the starving, and they were starving.
RG: Yeah. Starvation.
AJ: Ordinary folk away. Well the plane in front dropped successfully and suddenly, terribly the German troops, they laid down their arms and raced to get the food. They were starving too.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: And then followed by the people. Can you imagine it? I’m approaching.
LD: Oh and you’re coming.
AJ: And suddenly dropped them as you came in.
LD: Carrying two hundred pounds of potatoes.
AJ: I’ve got to drop. I’ve got to drop. The plane is ready to drop. So I dropped my load and so help me God. You could see them. You know. if you get hit in the head with a two hundred pound bag of spuds at two hundred miles an hour.
RG: Two hundred miles an hour.
AJ: There’s not much of you left. Well I did about three. Three or four of those. And in there I have a plaque that was issued to those of us on Operation Manna. And on the way back, trying to recover our sanity we went on, going past these great windmills with great Lancasters — four engines. You approached the windmill [boom] and the wheels — vroom [laughs] We had photos of that which have gone missing now. That was Operation Manna. And then, after the war, some three days after the war, Churchill ordered the air force to provide a skilled crew. A pilot, with the facilities in this Lancaster for photography. For the record over all of Germany.
RG: The destructed. The destroyed cities. Yeah.
AJ: And hence my first long range. I was selected, and you had, I had on board about eleven or twelve senior people, photographers, ladies, WAAF chiefs. Some of them were very senior people. And at a thousand feet we flew all over Germany taking those. They were quite famous photographs.
PJ: These are the negatives we gave to the War Memorial last year.
AJ: The negatives we gave. We have the copy. Particularly that famous one.
RG: Of the bridge.
AJ: The bridge of Cologne.
AJ: Over Cologne. And the funniest thing of all I guess was the fact that those long trips the ladies of course, it wasn’t set up for ladies in a Lancaster.
LD: From what I’ve heard the elsan wasn’t very well set up for men either.
AJ: The elsan. I had strict instructions I gave to my rear gunner that he wasn’t to switch. I could sense when he moved his turret.
RG: Turret. Yeah.
AJ: I said, ‘You keep that bloody turret looking out.’ But a couple of times there I could sense what was going on. And he was laughing like hell there. So there was some funny things.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Then further on we joined the new force.
RG: Tiger Force.
AJ: Single Australians with very long, highly experienced crews.
PJ: Tiger Force.
AJ: Tiger Force. At the home of east, at East Kirkby which is famous anyhow.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And we started to bring back, we’d fly tremendous distances all over Europe doing various tasks to get experience for when we were to be based in Iwo Jima.
RG: In bombing Japan.
AJ: That had just been taken by the Yanks. To bomb Japan. Can you imagine these long range Lancs up against the Japanese Zeros defending their own land? Over Tokyo. But the worst thing about it was that we would not have enough fuel to return to Iwo Jima.
RG: So what was to happen? Land in China?
AJ: We were too overfly. Think of this for a crazy bloody.
RG: Planning.
AJ: Arrangements made by that idiot Churchill and others to overfly Tokyo in to deep Soviet Russia and to land at a field of opportunity.
LD: Oh because it would all just be sitting there.
AJ: There were no maps. We were just told that you overfly if you survive. You can overfly, land where you’ll be refuelled and rearmed and you could come back. There was no way we would come back. It was a flight to death. But that’s what we were up for. But before we got down on to that level we were, we did a lot of flying down to the south of Italy to the coast. Bari.
RG: Oh yeah.
AJ: Because that Bari became the central point for the collection of all the poor darned prisoners of war.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: From all around that area.
RG: From right up through Europe. Not just to Italy. Everywhere.
AJ: Down. Yeah. All the prisoners that were to be returned to Britain were to be, as far as possible collected from Bari.
RG: Brought back through Bari. Ok.
AJ: We’d fly down and bring them back.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Ten on each side of the Lancaster, strapped.
LD: Of course I’ve heard this, and I’ve wondered where they put them and how they put them.
AJ: Well that’s it because the Lanc became, of course almost unmanageable with twenty people. It’s centre of gravity was all over the place.
LD: Yes.
AJ: It was highly dangerous work.
LD: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: But we did quite a few of these trips and on one trip — this is quite a funny story really. We had realised and so had the people down in Bari that a nice little trade could be organised. We’d take down the, we’d bring back the prisoners but what do we do?
RG: Come back empty.
AJ: About taking them down because you can’t sort of turn up an opportunity to load up your Lanc bomb bay. In a station like Binbrook there were hundreds, literally hundreds of push bikes.
LD: Of course. Of course. Yes.
AJ: Pushbikes were, of course, used by everyone. When a crew went missing no one’s interested in the pushbikes. The bicycle dump was bigger than the bomb dump. And we, a lot of us got our little heads together and said if we take down bikes wired up in the bomb bay and then exchange them down there for fruit, Italian jewellery, you know. For all the goodies that were missing in England. Ah, great. So this trade started. Well we’d done quite a few of these trips bringing back the prisoners itself was —
RG: Key thing.
AJ: A very emotional experience. But mid-way through this exercise the bloody military police down in, our own coppers —
RG: Yeah. Yeah. The crushers.
AJ: Down in Bari. They had a racket or two going too and we were undercutting them, you know. And so they decided that they were going to stop us.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: By arresting a few of the crew and causing mayhem.
RG: You didn’t get arrested again did you Alex?
AJ: What happened was that I got, to there was about six or eight in this flight. I happened to be leading it, of Lancs from Binbrook with our bikes. And we’re flying at about fifteen thousand feet down the Med. We get a call from base saying, ‘Get rid of those bloody bikes. The cops are waiting for you in Bari.’ How do you get rid of bikes fifteen thousand feet over the Med? Obvious.
PJ: It is really.
AJ: I opened the bomb bays and wired them, and at my command, ‘Bombs away. Bikes away.’ And so that’s what happened. And can you imagine suddenly out of the [laughs] hundreds of bikes?
RG: You’ll see them down there on the floor of the Mediterranean there is all this piles of bikes.
AJ: That’s it. in the future, five thousand years away there will be some stupid palaeontologist saying these are unusual.
LD: There’ll be some child who was down on the beach that’s going, ‘Mum, can we go out and get some of those bikes that fell in to the sea?’ ‘Oh, you stupid boy.’
PJ: Wouldn’t believe it.
AJ: Oh dear. But when we got down there and the cops raced into the aircraft. Nothing there. Bomb doors open. Opened the bomb doors. Nothing. I can still see [laughs] they knew they’d been beaten.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Didn’t find anything.
LD: What did you do with those bloody bikes. What bikes?
RG: What bikes?
LD: They didn’t find anything else to arrest anybody for instead did they?
RG: I’ve just got this mental image of all these people riding pushbikes in these 1950s and ‘60s Italian movies.
PJ: That’s right.
RG: And they’re all RAF bikes.
PJ: Of course they had no transport so —
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: So there was some funny stories amongst the tragedies.
PJ: What else is there? I can’t think. Actually now there’s, in Lummen, where Alex came down.
RG: Sorry what was the name of that town again?
PJ: Lummen.
RG: Yeah. How do you spell it?
AJ: L U M M E N.
RG: Ok.
AJ: Lummen.
PJ: They now have a street, an Alexander Jenkins Street, Strasse in the new subdivision there.
RG: Oh truly. Oh wow.
PJ: Yeah. The mayor wrote last year.
AJ: Yeah. What happened was oh about 1983 or thereabouts.
PJ: It was ’83 because that was when I was going through those things for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
AJ: ’83. They, the local people in Lummen. The younger men and women who had no real experience of the war decided that they knew all of them now. They knew the history of that terrible night. The number of aircraft shot down over their, over their area on the night of the 20th.
PJ: Very close to the German border.
AJ: And they decided that they knew that there was somewhere in this rhododendron swamp. Beautiful rhododendron forest but there were bits of my aircraft that had been in that swamp. Had not been discovered and taken away in the great clean-up straight after the war had finished. And they were just resting in pieces until then. And a number of them, the patriots decided they’d find the remains of my Lanc. Which they did. They were amazing the way they did it. And anyway —
PJ: They didn’t find much.
AJ: No. They didn’t find much. The heavy undercarriage survived of course. A few other bits and pieces. So at about ‘83 this occurred, and they finally had got through the ID markings on the, on the remnants. They knew that it was a bomber from Binbrook. The records showed that that was the site of the Lanc. And they decided that they would try, they knew there was one survivor. The pilot.
PJ: They didn’t know that at the outset did they because that young, the young girl that looked after the graves, first of all they had all of you.
AJ: Oh yeah that’s right.
PJ: Lost.
AJ: It took a long time.
RG: For everyone.
PJ: For them all. And we met this young girl who, she was a twelve year old when she used to look after the graves.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Because they were buried in the village.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Now they’re in the war cemetery.
RG: War cemetery. Yeah.
PJ: But in the small war cemetery.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Not in any major ones.
AJ: No.
PJ: Because they said, you know, their our guys. So it’s a small war cemetery.
AJ: They decided that they would get this, these bits and pieces and build a memorial. And the identification — they searched everywhere. Records and so on to try and find the name and the whereabouts of the surviving pilot. Me. Well, officialdom, particularly in Australia and for good reasons you make at that time, you make an enquiry like that and — no comment. Because of the threat of retaliation and bribery and things. People getting even if they handed out that sort of information.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough.
AJ: Where Joe Blow was, who was doing this at that time in the war. Where is he now? I want to go over and shoot him.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: So they didn’t pass any info at all. They couldn’t get anywhere with it. But in any event, they finally did, through the university system. See, I was a professor in the, I was a foundation professor at the University of New South Wales and eventually also a professor in charge of the Department of Materials and Metallurgy at Sydney University. And Sydney, the university has this international academic thing over and they, apparently there was a publication in England about me.
PJ: Well there —
AJ: And they found me.
PJ: Apparently, yeah, apparently, there’s a university magazine that goes out and this fellow in Belgium put an ad in this university magazine seeking the whereabouts of this Alexander Jenkins.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: And Alex had already retired so the registrar of the Sydney Uni rang Alex and said, ‘I don’t know what you’ve been up to.’ And also the Department of Foreign Affairs got in touch.
AJ: Yeah. They said, ‘What have you been up to? You’re wanted.’
RG: Again. Get stuffed.
AJ: Well we were —
PJ: It was.
AJ: Planning to go back at that stage.
PJ: Well, I was working and when I married Alex he said I’d like you to retire in five years. So, ok, because he didn’t know what he was going to be doing. So by the time I retired he was on every rotten board in the country and he was never at home so I could have killed him. But that’s beside the point. So the people I worked for, they, they knew I was going to retire so this was ’86. It must have been. And they said, ‘Look you’ve done a good job for us. We think you should get a new car. We’re suggesting you get BMW and we suggest you go to Munich to pick it up.’ So I was quite happy to do that. So we knew we were going to be in Europe. And we took a house about fifteen kilometres out of Florence for about six weeks or something. So we had all this in place. Well then when they finally got hold of Alex we said we could be there etcetera and so forth. So we went, and we drove into this town and there were thousands of people and Alex said, ‘It must be market day.’ It wasn’t market day it was us and him.
LD: It was Alex Jenkins day.
PJ: And it was incredible.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Did you go by car and wave like the queen?
PJ: It was a big deal.
AJ: It was a big deal.
PJ: The head of the NATO forces for Belgium was there. Colonel [unclear] And there was the Australian Ambassador to France, I think he was. And there was the British Ambassador to somewhere or other. They were all there and it was interesting and we, and Colonel [unclear] said to me they were going to unveil a memorial to Alex’s crew.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Outside the church. So, and Colonel [unclear] he said, because it was a Flemish area. There was a book written about Alex, but it was in Flemish. Have you ever tried to get Flemish translated in this country? It’s almost impossible.
RG: I know one person who can do it.
PJ: Well, I found one person who could do it and she was in Adelaide. And it was interesting. My daughter was working for the Commonwealth Bank and the girl at the desk next to her, she was saying, because Alex was coming up for his eightieth birthday and I was trying to find some way to get this translated so he could, so that I could give it to him for his eightieth. Well, so Louise was helping me. And somehow, she said something to this girl and she said mum, she’s a translator. She’s married to an Australian but she’s from the Flemish region of Belgium. Anyhow, Colonel [unclear] said it in Flemish and then he said it in English and so on. And there was a guard of honour drawn up for Alex and they were all the Resistance fighters. And they were all old, and they were gnarled and they were a tough looking bunch. And they made him an honorary member, his medal’s in there, of the resistance. Well then Colonel [unclear] had said to me, ‘Be prepared for a bit of a surprise.’ So they go through all this and then they gave him a flypast of F16s.
RG: Wow.
PJ: They came over the top of the church.
RG: Yeah. To recognise.
PJ: It was quite amazing. It was a very emotional day. We’ve been over a couple of times since. But —
AJ: It was quite something. I’m standing there and in front of the dais and the colonel and there’s all the Resistance. Wartime blokes. God [laughs] they were a rough bunch with their berets and so on and when he said that there would be a celebration and he didn’t really describe it except that I thought, you know this is something to do with this air force business.
PJ: No. He didn’t tell you. He told me. You didn’t know anything about it.
AJ: No. I didn’t. And anyway, the, I’m standing there and just waiting. And, in the background, I heard vroom vroom vroom and I thought, My God. that’s a bloody aircraft on full power, flaps. It’s a, there’s a word for it in some tactical approach. Supersonic aircraft flying as slow as possible with flaps down.
RG: Flying down.
AJ: And undercart still retracted.
RG: Ok.
AJ: But flying as low and as slow.
RG: Slow as possible.
AJ: It takes tremendous power for a plane like that to do that.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ: And they were revving the engines. Vroom. Vroom. Vroom.
RG: Virtually standing on the tail. Yeah.
AJ: I thought, oh my God, I think I know what might be coming because that’s the first part of a ceremonial, highly meaningful but seldom performed performance by aircraft in the honour of a fallen or a number of fallen comrades. Prince of Wales Feathers it called. Anyway, sure enough and low on the horizon was that. How many were there? About six weren’t there? I think so.
PJ: No. I think there was four or something [unclear] to make the Prince of Wales Feathers.
AJ: No. Six it would have been.
PJ: Anyhow, whatever.
AJ: Anyway just over the top just above the ground really and I’m looking at that and I thought I know what’s coming now because what happens is that they move away. That’s meant to be the sound of the human heart.
LD: Yes. Yes.
AJ: Vroom vroom vroom. Then they move away. Get out, away from the crowd and everything else. They reassemble and this time —
RG: Come back.
AJ: They come in with full power as an arrow group.
LD: Yeah.
AJ: And then vroom just above and straight up and then they.
LD: That’s where they get the name the name the Prince of Wales Feathers. Just spreading.
AJ: Prince of Wales Feathers.
LD: Spreading like the feathers.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Yeah. The beating of the human heart first and then the departure of the soul to heaven.
RG: Yeah. Ok. I didn’t realise the significance.
PJ: These, we were guests of this —
AJ: Gosh it was so impressive.
LD: What a wonderful thing for your crew isn’t it.
AJ: I had tears in my eyes.
PJ: The pilots took us to dinner. Their wives took us to dinner that night and one of the wives was saying that she, she, they used to hide under the table during the war. And she said her mother used to say she could hear the Lancasters going over and she’d say, ‘There goes the sound of freedom.’ So —
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: She’s but she —
AJ: What a story that —
PJ: This Colonel [unclear] was the air attaché to the Belgian Embassy.
AJ: He was a wonderful bloke.
PJ: Embassy in Washington. And his wife told the story that when they went over there they had three daughters and the youngest, the littly really spoke no English at all. The other two were bi lingual. Anyhow she gets her there and she didn’t know whether to send her to school or not and so on. So she sends her to kindy and when she gets home her mother said, ‘How was it? How did you like American kindy?’ She said, ‘Mum, it’s quite good but, ‘she said, ‘You know none of the kids could understand a word I said.’ So she said it took her a while. But they were delightful people. When we were there a couple of years ago he was too ill to meet us but no this first trip we went one of the, oh well there’s a, there’s a little memorial. Alex has photos there and it’s made of the, the what do you call the big straps that the wheels go in.
AJ: The oleo legs.
PJ: Ok. And they made a chapel of them.
AJ: And then on top there’s this —
PJ: But then they, and there was an ink drawing of Alex falling out of the sky with his parachute on fire and so on. And there were a whole stack of kids. There was just so many people there. And I tried to, I was saying to these, trying to explain to these kids that that old guy, he didn’t have a beard then but that old guy over there was the guy falling out of the sky. They looked at him. They looked at it. But this bloke from the Australian Embassy had very kindly brought a pocket full of little gold kangaroos, you know so they dispensed these out to the kids.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: And they thought it lovely fun. But at the same time there was a dinner that night a reception that afternoon and a fellow gave Alex, this father and his son came out and the son spoke very good English as they all do. The father wasn’t [unclear] but he had a gold watch he had which belonged to one of Alex’s crew and he asked if we could try and return it to the family. Well I was still working, and I tried and as Alex said earlier you can’t get any information. People don’t give you any information. So when I retired I couldn’t find out where this guy had come from or anything, by the name of Campbell. Anyhow, when I retired I tried again and I struck. I told the lass this story, you know, what was going on and she was quite helpful and said he came from Mudgee. So we did some research. It was very hard. You know, it was a long time ago and people change and die and move on and so on.
LD: Yes.
PJ: Anyhow, we eventually found his three sisters and we gave them back the watch that apparently their mother had given to their brother for his twenty first birthday and so we were able to give them that.
AJ: By the way we have been back several times and I think the last time that we were in contact the people the people in Lummen because we are, we have the freedom of the city and so on.
RG: That’s one place in the world you’re never going to be arrested. You know that [laughs]
AJ: Yeah. That’s right.
PJ: The last time we went —
AJ: Well, the last time we were there they had the signs up.
PJ: But we said, ‘Very low key please. Very low key.’ So we arrived, well first of all they picked us up from the railway station in Brussels. And they described, there would be three guys and they described themselves and their description was absolutely spot on. There was a short guy, a tall guy and a fat guy. Three guys. So they picked us up and we drive into town and there was all these, “Welcome Alexander Jenkins.”
AJ: And since then —
LD: So it was lucky it was low key was it?
AJ: They have, there was a big estate.
PJ: Yeah. Well as I said your name.
AJ: That’s been formed. The principal avenue was named after me. Alexander Jenkins Strasse.
PJ: Strasse but they, you know we were.
AJ: So I’ve got my name in that part of Belgium.
PJ: And we had a reception. And all these kids. A group of kids I think they were probably eleven. Ten or eleven. Something like that. And their job was to draw the story they knew and to draw what they thought of this fellow coming out of the plane. Well, they all stood there literally and came forward and presented Alex with their, their drawings. Which was all very nice. But the only thing, you know, because I worked in the not for profit sector and I used to bring people from overseas as speakers I was very conscious of the luggage that people had to take back, but jeez you know, when we were there last time they presented Alex with a beautiful crystal vase about so high and about so big with everything engraved on it. It weighed three tonnes.
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: And how on earth we were going to get this home, but we did but, no its —
AJ: Anyway that’s the —
PJ: That’s his story. Is there anything else you want to know about?
AJ: That’s my story basically. I know I’ve rambled.
RG: No, that’s, that’s fine.
LD: Oh no. No.
AJ: But the funny parts about it are when I think the last couple of weeks, so we went down to this function which we generally go to once a year.
LD: Yes.
AJ: Of the 460. Under G for George.
PJ: The 460 under the wings —
LD: I was going to ask you to talk about your connection with G for George.
AJ: Yes. Well G for George is of course a Lancaster from 460 Squadron. One of the most weird aircraft we ever had in the squadron. Long before my time. Ninety eight trips. Combat trips. And it’s still in one piece. The C flight, there were various flights on 460 Squadron. A B C D. Twenty six aircraft actually to the squadron, six commence of the four and two spare, and C flight always has G for George, And I finished as the command of C flight of 460 Squadron. And therefore, and I’ve flown of course during the war when this one had returned to Australia. Peter Issacson and others for the, brought that plane back for the — raised funds at the time. I’ve flown G for George. G10, G11, G12 because the average life of the Lanc was only three months.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Before it would be shot down. So I’ve flown quite a few G for George’s but I’m also the ex-commander of that one, C flight which is —
PJ: The one there in Canberra is the one that flew under the Harbour Bridge.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. On that.
PJ: When Peter Issacson was flying.
AJ: They let me in to that aircraft as a special dispensation.
PJ: This was last Friday.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Last Friday. I’ve often said to Pauline and others I’d just love to, once before I go to —
PJ: I’d heard —
RG: Seriously.
AJ: To get back in to my plane.
LD: That would be a wonderful experience.
AJ: It was so lovely.
PJ: I’d heard that you could do this. So when we were talking about taking stuff down, well first of all to give something to the War Memorial isn’t that simple.
RG: No.
PJ: You’ve got to go through a terrible lot of rigmarole. They don’t want you to bring stuff there and so on. I was talking I just left a message and this young man rang me back. And I said look we’re going to be there. I said, ‘My husband is elderly. It doesn’t matter if we bring the stuff. You have a look.’ ‘No. We’re not interested. We’ve already got that.’ ‘That’s fine. But at least then we know.’ And I said, ‘While I’m calling you I understand that if you were a pilot of a Lancaster you can have a sneaky inside.’ And he said, ‘Oh I’ve never heard of that.’ Anyhow, they rang back and said there was this special thing etcetera etcetera. So, there was a message waiting for us when we got to Canberra last week and they said to ring so we rang, and they said well we’re not supposed to. We’ve had to get authority from the highest but as a very special thing and the big thing is apparently a couple of years ago there was an old pilot was up in there and he had a bad fall and severely gashed his head.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: So now it’s totally taboo.
LD: And it’s a good long way up.
PJ: Yeah. So what they had there was two delightful young men. One went in front and one went behind and they had one, of course they used those ladders, you know, those wood ladders, flat on the top.
AJ: My ambition was to get in.
PJ: Anyhow, he got there.
AJ: I knew I wouldn’t be able to get and sit in the front, in the pilots seat because it’s all wired up with dummies, but what I wanted to do, and any Lanc crew member would understand what I’m saying. I wanted to get over the main spar.
RG: Yes. Yeah.
AJ: That main spar was the continuation of the wing structure through the middle of the plane. It used to cause tremendous problems to us. Particularly if you were in combat and you needed to bail out.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Oh. It was awkward. Anyway, I got in, struggled along the plane and I came to the main spar. And I think the bloke said, ‘Do you think you can?’ Because I’ m pretty weak. ‘Do you think you can get over there?’ I said, ‘I’ll do this or die.’ And I got over it.
LD: So does it look like, I’ve seen people climb over it. It doesn’t look like there’s much room.
AJ: Oh yeah. Once I was over there I could see the cockpit and everything else.
PJ: He was a very happy chappy.
AJ: I was a happy chappy and I came back over again. Top of this great ladder and I looked down and opposite in the recess were the two aircraft. One of them the ME262.
RG: Oh yes. Of course there is.
AJ: The one that shot me down.
LD: Yes. Of course you were —
PJ: That’s right.
AJ: And the other was what we called the chase me Charlies. They were the rocket ships that used to go.
RG: ME 163.
AJ: Straight up. And the trick about them was that they had this great cannon which if you were hit with that you didn’t, what I got, blown to bits. You go, it goes up and then it levels out. It levelled out in the stream and selected a target and that was the end of the target. But when you could see it going up we thought oh my God, you know. You watch. You watch. If you see a, the thing stop and then the trail continue you breathed a sigh of relief because it’s going away from you.
RG: Yes.
AJ: Because of the jet at the back. But if it went up.
RG: And vanished.
AJ: And there was darkness it was. ‘Oh my God.’
RG: Coming towards.
AJ: It’s coming to us.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: So those two planes. I looked down and the blokes with me knew what I was thinking.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: I said, ‘Yeah, I remember those two,’
PJ: Are you going to see David Griffin?
RG: No. We haven’t been able to get back in contact with him. I’ve tried ringing all week.
LD: We did want to try and see him.
RG: And his phone’s been ringing out. He may have gone away. I’m not too sure.
PJ: He’s got a daughter here. David is ninety five or ninety six.
RG: Yeah. So ninety six. Yeah.
AJ: Very weak.
LD: We were kind of a bit concerned that the phone just kept —
RG: Yeah.
PJ: Well do you want me to ring a friend who is quite close to them. Literally living close but they have a lot to do with David. He also was a headmaster of a school but David was the headmaster of Orange High. But if you like I can just find out if they know whether he’s there.
RG: That would be nice Pauline. Yeah. Because we thought what we might do is we’ve got his address. We might just pop around because I said we’d come today.
PJ: Yeah.
RG: We hadn’t organised a time And I haven’t been able to do that, so I thought we’d pop in and say look we’re —
PJ: His daughter’s here. You had no trouble with the Belubula River. There was a flood. Did you come down through, down it.
RG: No. It’s up but it was no trouble though.
PJ: And where is it in Cowra that you like to stay?
RG: There’s a — you know where the airport is? And then the Grenfell Road. The road that just goes up and up
PJ: Oh yes. Yes.
RG: Well just before Grenfell Road there’s a little road called Back Creek Road that goes back the other way.
PJ: Yeah. Back by the racecourse or whatever it is. Is there a racecourse out there? Yeah.
LD: Yes. There is.
RG: Is there? Oh. As you go down Back Creek Road there’s through a bunch of vineyards and there’s a little vineyard down there.
PJ: Oh yeah.
RG: And there’s a little cottage in the vineyard right up against the creek which is now just about running a banker.
PJ: That’s right.
RG: And it’s beautiful. It’s just a quiet little spot.
PJ: I went, I went to boarding school in Cowra, so —
RG: Oh ok.
AJ: Well, that’s been a rambling thing. I’m sorry.
RG: Can I just ask you. You said something and I’ve kind of lost context of what but it was to do with jinx. That’s right. The second dickie runs, and the second dickie runs , and you said you hated them because the jinx thing. Did you have a talisman or a token or anything that you — ?
AJ: No. I did not and a lot of guys, you’re quite right, a lot of guys swore by them. See it’s strange you know. You were a very old man at twenty five in Bomber Command.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Very few guys older than twenty five. It was a business for very young and hopefully very fit. Yes, we were very fit. Even though we drank like fish. The one reason I have never smoked in my life I can put down to my service as a Lancaster bomber bloke because we drank, naturally. And we all, we had very strict rules though. We used to police ourselves. We didn’t need the service police who used to be around for all sorts of reasons on a squadron.
RG: Yeah. I know.
AJ: They used to pick up every now and then. Spies and so on.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And we drank, and I found that if I had a cigarette then nothing would happen on the ground but as soon as I used to have to go on to the oxygen mask which is at eight thousand feet, or —
LD: Yes.
AJ: I’d give the command to, ‘Masks on.’ I’d become violently ill. Now, if you’ve got to sit in the pilot’s seat strapped in, its bad enough to have a wee because you couldn’t get out.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And the poor bomb aimer, you used to have to butter him up because he used to carry a peach tin or urine bucket they called it and you’d have to struggle and have a widdle if you could into there. And he’s down there and you’re up so sometimes a splash [laughs]
LD: He’d want you flying straight and level while you did that.
AJ: That’s one thing. But to be absolutely sick in your oxygen mask.
LD: Yeah.
LD: Which you couldn’t take off.
LD: Yes. Yes.
AJ: And spend eight, ten hours.
LD: Oh God.
AJ: So naturally I never smoked.
LD: No.
And it’s served me so well in my life.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Being a non-smoker.
RG: Yeah. I agree. I was smoker.
AJ: I wouldn’t say that I was a non-drinker but I’ve cut that down now, obviously on medical advice to just red wine.
PJ: They don’t, they don’t, haven’t heard that he was going away or anything but he’s terribly deaf so —
RG: He may just have not heard the phone. Yeah.
PJ: So I’ll give you the address.
RG: I’ve got that. I’ve got his address.
PJ: Got it. 90 Gardener Road.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: You know Gardener Road.
RG: Oh we use the sat nav. It’ll get us there.
PJ: So I suggest you go and knock on his door.
RG: Yeah. That’s what we thought we’d do because he said he’d written a book which has never been published.
PJ: Oh yes.
RG: He’s got the manuscript and Lucie checked. Because I wrote a book about a friend of mine’s father who was in the 2nd machine gun, 1st Machine Gun Battalion during the war.
PJ: Oh yes.
RG: So, and it’s just a little personal thing for her.
PJ: Yeah.
RG: But Lucy checked with the National Library and they said yes, they’d be happy to take a copy of that.
PJ: Oh yeah.
RG: And a copy of David’s if it’s, providing it’s typed. And if not, we can do that for him if he wants.
AJ: Because he’s an English fellow who was in the RAF.
PJ: But he’s, he’s very deaf. He almost yells. He has good days and bad days. Some days he’s not terribly with it and sometimes he’s fine.
RG: When I called him, you know, he said, ‘Oh look I don’t know.’ He said, ‘I’ve done a few of these interviews I don’t think I could contribute any more,’ and then an hour and a half later I was still trying to get off the phone [laughs]
AJ: [laughs] Yeah.
PJ: He’s a bit of a hoot you know. He comes. Well the people I’ve just spoken to, Bill he won’t wear — because he’s got a service medal but he did, because he didn’t, he was too young. Bill is just ninety. He was too young to actually, he was in the air force, but never got anywhere.
RG: Didn’t go on ops. Yeah.
PJ: He said, ‘I’m too embarrassed to wear the medal I’ve got.’ Whereas David comes, and he has every conceivable pin that he’s ever got, and said. Well the Russians do.
RG: Yeah. Or the Americans. Oh yeah.
PJ: All the bits and pieces. But no, Actually one of my nephews was in the navy. He went through [unclear]
RG: What was his name, just for interest sake?
LD: My brother was at [unclear]
PJ: Was he?
LD: Yes.
PJ: Well me nephew is now, because he is exactly twenty years younger than me. So, we share a birthday so he must be sixty three. But —
RG: Well that’s almost my age. What was his name. We were in at the same time.
PJ: Mark Dowd.
RG: Do you know what he did?
PJ: Yes. He was a diver.
RG: Oh I didn’t know any divers really. Yeah.
PJ: And it was interesting. It was very interesting because you know there was something like twenty of them in this diving class for starters. So I think there was twenty one or something finished.
RG: Very few get through.
PJ: They were either psychologically unsuited. Physically unsuited. There were a few deaths because of accidents and so on but the navy did Mark a great service because he was [unclear] whatever he was. He went to Vietnam. I think they had to make sure there were no mines. They had to clear.
RG: Under the ships.
PJ: Under on the ships and so on. But then he came back and started his own diving business. I don’t mean sort of leisure. It’s like —
RG: Professional diving.
PJ: Cables and this sort of thing. Dams.
RG: They were very well trained. The navy divers were very extremely well trained.
PJ: I’d say Mark has done very well. The navy did him a big favour but no, so his two sons. Neither went into the navy. One’s an engineer. The other one is doing something. I think science at CSU so, not CSU ANU, in Canberra. Alright. Ok.
LD: Just a couple of really short things.
AJ: Yes, love.
LD: One is do you know what a command bullseye is?
AJ: A command.
LD: A command bullseye.
AJ: Command bullseye.
LD: That’s in the diary that I have and it’s from the context it seems to me like it’s the, it’s like the kind of last exercise you do at the OTU before you go on ops. So, you know ,you go out, you fly at night. But I just haven’t actually been able to find the term anywhere.
RG: [unclear] crew, they did, “Did their command bullseye today” was pretty all what they said and they went to London.
LD: Yeah, they went to London.
AJ: Yeah.
RG: They did it over London. But other crews we’ve heard of doing it over France as well.
AJ: No. I don’t think I came across that.
LD: It’s alright. I know It could have even been a local term.
RG: Well Ken was a little, a fraction before you. he went down in December ‘43 and I noticed that terms and practices and things came and went.
AJ: Oh they sure did.
RG: Yeah. There was no consistency.
AJ: I went to Lindholme — and in the final set up. Yeah. Command bullseye. No.
LD: No. That’s fine.
RG: Might have been a local.
LD: Yeah. And just the other thing. I don’t know how you would feel about this but I, in Katoomba I met a man who was busking. He had the most beautiful voice. This baritone and he was busking in a shopping centre. And he was so well-presented. Anyway, I got to talking to him and he was from Dresden.
AJ: Oh dear. Came from Dresden.
LD: Yeah.
RG: Yes.
LD: He was born and grew up Dresden. Middle aged man.
AJ: Oh dear.
LD: And he busks as a professional and he said he busks in Dresden. And he said he goes to the old city and he sings to the old people. And I thought that was really lovely that —
AJ: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
LD: You know, that he, you know this is his contribution.
PJ: Well the world moves on. I mean this is —
AJ: I have a horror.
LD: No. No. I mean he sings to the people.
PJ: Yes.
AJ: In relation to Dresden no man who bombed Dresden will, he will never be the same because it was such an awful set up in execution that, you know it scarred any conscience. And the worst thing about it was that it was specifically ordered by Winston Churchill to impress Stalin. And when the British public quite rightly revolted in revulsion even in the wartime and admittedly there was some technical reasons why Dresden had to be bombed because they were concentrating German troops and so on there. But Churchill just wiped his hands. He said, ‘I never.’ He blamed Sir Arthur Harris. Better known as Butch Harris. Sir Arthur Harris never, was never recognised except just before his death. And above all Churchill was so furious with the outcry that in blaming Sir Arthur he never forgot that Bomber Command, in his view needed to be brought to heel. And in that way, I don’t know if you know that story that when the great Victory Parade was organised Bomber Command was the only command refused permission to march in the Victory Parade, and yet Bomber Command was the only service for quite a while that was able to take the —
RG: To Germany. Yeah.
AJ: Oh God. We have the clasp. Have you ever seen that clasp that was awarded?
RG: No. No. I haven’t. No.
AJ: I’ll show you. The clasp was for those in Bomber Command.
PJ: Do you want your medal?
AJ: Yeah. Just the main medal because the other one hasn’t got it.
PJ: It’s not exactly a big deal.
AJ: The British government, queen and parliament eighteen months ago passed a motion of condolence and regret and apology to Bomber Command for the insult delivered to us in the peace. The processions etcetera and by command of the government and the queen a special clasp, a gold clasp was awarded to those of us who served in Bomber Command. When the papers came here and to my colleagues and so on almost to a man, here in Australia we initially refused. In fact I was ready —
PJ: That’s all it is. That’s the bar.
RG: Bomber Command.
AJ: Ready to rip it up. Put it in the application envelope and send it back.
RG: Send it back.
AJ: You know, with the words, ‘Get stuffed,’ but I had second thoughts.
PJ: It was interesting, like last Friday we were at this thing and there’s all these young people there.
RG: It is late but it’s the least they can do now.
PJ: Twenty six or something but every time they go away they get a medal.
RG: It is recognition finally isn’t it? It’s late and it’s long overdue but —
PJ: Always. Every one’s is a different tour of duty, so.
LD: Yeah.
AJ: They’re campaign medals.
PJ: They’ll have five or six medals and they’re about twenty five and, ‘Where did you get all them?’ ‘Oh well, you know I’ve been to Afghanistan. I’ve been to Iraq.’ Or something. But anyhow.
RG: Yeah. There is that.
PJ: Did you know, I’m trying to think? What’s, what’s the naval bloke here. Harris, Harris?
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: Harris.
AJ: Yeah.
PJ: His wife’s name is —
AJ: I can’t remember.
PJ: He was actually the naval attaché to the [unclear] of Paris. What’s his name? I saw him on Anzac Day. Kim. And he’d be older than you.
AJ: Not many. Not many people.
PJ: I was one of eight. And there was a boy, then six girls and then a boy. So the three youngest girls that’s me, my sister. Monica and my sister Dot. We’re the only survivors. But we did very well because until the last two years. My younger brother died, I don’t know probably fifteen, twenty years ago. And my elder sister died when she was only about fifty one but the rest of them, they’ve all been well in to their eighties. I’m eighty three. The next one’s eighty four and the next one’s eighty five.
AJ: You don’t look eighty-three.
PJ: Well thank you. In a good light.
AJ: Now I’m getting nice.
RG: Indeed. Alex. One other question I’d like to ask. VE Day. What was —
AJ: VE day.
RG: Do you have any remembrance of that? Do you remember it?
AJ: Yes. Yes and no. VE day the crew and I were in London. Naturally. I think we all descended on it, and I was actually, I’d been somewhere around Australia House in the morning, early. And they had up on the thing a little notice that guys from certain squadrons and so on represent for, and they had a sort of a bus, open topped bus and I put my name down for 460. I was the one who was chosen to sit on the bus and we got very close, you know, to the royal family. Waving away. And the celebrations though. The Aussies had a number of bars whose names now I forget but we, we descended on the bar in this particular place and we’d actually used the time and time again with the darts that they had for the dart board. We, after a celebration or a particular bomb raid that had gone well and, you know we were proud of it we’d put a few details and twing.
RG: Threw them up on the ceiling.
AJ: Anyway, we decided that they should come down.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: And so we got ladders and things and I remember being fully inebriated trying to get up these ladders to pull darts out of the roof.
PJ: It’s a wonder you survived all the things you got up to.
AJ: Well, I mean basically we were young and stupid.
RG: Yeah.
AJ: Yeah. So VE day was quite a day.
RG: I had to ask because the chap in Canberra Arthur Louden we said to him you know where you on VE day when the war ended. He said I was in bed with the wife up in Scotland. Someone knocked on the door and said, ‘The war’s over.’ I thought, good. And went back to bed again.
AJ: Oh dear that last raid that our squadron was involved in on Berchtesgaden. Hitler’s retreat. We blew the side off the bloody mountain. 460 Squadron was involved in it. It was Anzac Day. I remember that. Anzac Day they blew the side off the bloody mountain. When Pauline and I went back there I remember somewhere. We looked across, ‘I blew the side off that mountain’.
LD: ‘See that landslip there. I did that.’ Wow.
PJ: It’s interesting. I think it’s a shame that more, whilst still there’s people like Alex around that school kids aren’t given more information about the Second World War.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yeah.
PJ: At the present time of course it’s a hundred years —
AJ: That’s a moot question.
PJ: Yeah. But at the present time it’s all a hundred years of course of the First World War and so on.
AJ: The First World War.
PJ: But they don’t get a lot of indigenous history in school but very little about the Second World War.
AJ: Yeah. It is a shame. I’m ambivalent about that.
PJ: You know it’s a bit like —
AJ: I don’t know whether it’s good or not.
PJ: I don’t know if you have children, grandchildren or whatever, but, you know kids today like I said to me granddaughter who will turn up in a few minutes, ‘What are you going to do this year?’ You know. She said, ‘Well, grandma, I can’t decide whether I’ll go to Japan or Italy again this year.’ She went to Italy last year. But she’s never been to Cooper’s Creek or Cameron’s Corner or out in to the outback of Australia or where the various explorers went or even around here which was Mitchell’s territory. You know, she knew nothing about it. I do think it’s a shame. I think there should be more of, yes ok the indigenous. My next-door neighbour, his daughter married an indigenous, and. I keep saying, ‘Don’t blame me I, my I had three Italian and one French grandparent so it’s nothing to do with me,’ but —
LD: It’s a question of getting the whole story isn’t it?
PJ: But how do they ever give you the whole story?
LD: And not, you know, eschewed to one side.
PJ: But we’ll become so politically correct.
LD: Yes.
PJ: That it’s ridiculous and —
LD: My daughter went to Munich.
PJ: Oh yes.
LD: Last year. A couple of years ago. Whenever it was, Brother in law was married in Norway so they did all that. And she came back, and she said, ‘Oh mum. Munich’s beautiful.’ And then she said to me, ‘Did you know it was bombed during the war?’ I thought, ‘Hello.’ Would you like to tell? I could tell you, ‘I could tell you the name of people who did this if you like Polly.’
PJ: It’s very interesting.
LD: And I was just gobsmacked that my daughter who I thought was.
PJ: Yeah. But they don’t.
LD: She’s not a silly girl.
PJ: No. But it’s not, it’s not a part of their scene. It’s a bit like oh well, you know once again I’m not indigenous bashing but alright so the indigenous were here. So Captain Cook arrived so they established colonies etcetera, etcetera [unclear] I think was the first bod that arrived up on the West Australian coast, but yeah. Like, who’s going to grab England? Who are you going to go back to? The Gauls?
RG: Well exactly yeah. Yeah.
PJ: Or France or anywhere.
RG: I’ve got, I’ve got a Norwegian skin problem. So where did my family come? We’re from the north of England, ok.
AJ: Oh yeah.
RG: Originally.
LD: With the Vikings.
PJ: So it’s crazy you know.
RG: Yeah.
Dublin Core
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AJenkinsAE160709
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Interview with Alexander Elliott Jenkins
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
Format
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02:00:55 audio recording
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Pending review
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Creator
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Rob Gray
Date
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2016-07-09
Description
An account of the resource
Alexander Elliott Jenkins grew up in Melbourne, Australia and joined the Air Force aged eighteen. He flew operations as a pilot with 460 Squadron from RAF Binbrook. His aircraft was shot down by a Me 262 over occupied Belgium.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
Belgium
Great Britain
Germany
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1944
1945
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Julie Williams
460 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
Cook’s tour
final resting place
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Me 262
memorial
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
pilot
RAF Binbrook
shot down
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/302/3459/PLambAM1702.2.jpg
5bb20bc0ccac9b450bc8f96ec8e8496b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/302/3459/AMcPhersonLambA150726.1.mp3
5e35283fa31ed4090662324faaffc571
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lamb, Alexander
Alexander McPherson Lamb
Alexander M Lamb
Alexander Lamb
A M Lamb
A Lamb
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Alexander McPherson Lamb (b. 1925, 1827673 Royal Air Force), his decorations, album and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 15 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alexander Lamb and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-25
2017-08-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lamb
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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BB: Good morning Alistair, and thank you for letting me come into your home. I am representing the International Bomber Command Centre at Lincoln and we’re doing an oral history of Bomber Command veterans. So this interview is being held with Mr Alexander McPherson Lamb in his home in Stirling. Would you like to tell us your story? Thank you.
AML: Well, I joined the RAF in — I think it was March. I’m not quite sure now unclear] I think it was March. And I volunteered for aircrew. I was a junior clerk in the civil service. War Department. And I joined the RAF in, I think it was March. March ’44 I think it would be. I can’t remember.
[background chat]
BB: Sorry Alistair.
AML: That’s alright. You start again? Or is it alright?
BB: No. Just carry on.
AML: You’ve stopped it.
BB: Yeah. Just carry on. Yeah.
AML: And I think it was March ’44. And I volunteered as an air gunner. Had my attestation and medical and whatnot initially in Edinburgh prior to that. And I think I actually joined in March ’44. Yeah. March ’44 was when I actually joined. Went down to London to Aircrew Reception Centre in London where we were sort of needles stuck in us and examined and —
BB: Was that the one in St John’s Wood?
AML: Pardon?
BB: St John’s Wood.
AML: St John’s Wood. Yes. St John’s Wood. Then we went from there overnight by train to Bridgnorth.
BB: In Wales.
AML: I can’t remember the number of the OTU. Of the thing it was. Bridgnorth anyway. I can’t remember where, what it was actually called. It would be RAF. I can’t remember what Bridgnorth was. I’ve got it somewhere. Maybe get it in my logbook.
BB: Ok. We’ll look at that later.
AML: And then did our initial training there. March, gunnery, various things. Air force law. The usual jazz that you get when you join up first of all. And after that we were then [pause] I can’t remember how long we were there. I’d need to look up my logbook again. We then went to gunnery school which was at Stormy Down in Wales.
BB: Right.
AML: Number 7.
BB: That’s right. Number 7 Air Gunner’s School.
AML: At Stormy Down’s in Wales. Near, near Porthcawl. A lovely — it was a good station and I enjoyed it very much. We flew in Ansons there.
BB: Yeah.
AML: We did our gunnery in Ansons there. We passed out. It would be in 28th I think. 28th of July or June, I’m not quite sure, ’44. And then came home on leave. From that we went back to Market Harborough. OTU. 14 OTU Market Harborough.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Where we spent the first three weeks more or less meeting people. Knowing about, meeting guys. All the crews that were there. And you were allowed a month, a fortnight or three weeks to what was called crew up. There was no compunction. You picked your own crew over a period of time and that. Then you went in a huge hangar and I don’t know who it would be, the CO or somebody said, ‘Who are the people who have got full crews?’ And they all went to one side. The last of us were left. If you didn’t have a full crew you were then left and there would be other spare people left as well.
BB: Right.
AML: And they would then say, ‘Well here’s a spare pilot.’ ‘Here’s a spare navigator.’ ‘Here’s a spare gunner.’ Would you all like to, ‘Would you like to crew up?’ And basically that’s how you crewed up.
BB: Which was all very sensible really because you got to know people that you could trust and you liked and you got on well with.
AML: That’s right. That’s right.
BB: So there was method in their madness.
AML: Oh there was. The usual thing as you do in all these things when you join up first. There’s always somebody who knows something about everything. And they said, ‘Oh look for a warrant officer pilot because he’ll have a lot of flying experience. Don’t look for a young flying officer who’s got none.’ Or a young sergeant pilot. A general thing.
BB: Very sensible.
AML: It didn’t matter. You just picked who you found. You took a like to somebody even before you know their qualifications. If you liked them you liked them you know.
BB: Yes.
AML: We picked a warrant officer pilot and when we went in to be crewed up we were told well he’s been posted somewhere else. We were then left standing until this lone sergeant pilot arrived. We didn’t know he was French and they said, ‘Well here’s a pilot needing somebody. What about a crew?’ And I must have been looked at and he said, ‘What would you like to ask?’ I said, ‘Well we’ll take up then.’ So that’s how we got crewed up.
BB: So you had this French, a French airman.
AML: Very very much French actually.
BB: French pilot.
AML: Yeah.
BB: Who was kind of left.
AML: That’s right.
BB: Was he in the French Air Force or was he in the RAF?
AML: He was in the French Air Force initially I think.
BB: Right.
AML: He came from — maybe this is more or less rubbish to you.
BB: No. No. Carry on.
AML: He came from France when the Germans invaded. I forget where it was. It was down in the south of France. Not as far as they were but it was quite far down. Near Bordeaux I think he was.
BB: Right. Southern France. In Vichy France.
AML: Aye. And he escaped and came back to this country and because he had very little English at that time he was put in a reserved occupation building aircraft. He was punching wing ribs out for an Auster aircraft in Leicester.
BB: Oh I see. Right.
AML: That’s where he was sent to. And he got so fed up with it he said the only way you could get out of a reserved occupation during the war was if you were volunteered for submarines or aircrew.
BB: I see. Right. They were so short on both.
AML: So he volunteered for aircrew and did his training, I understand with the French Air Force and the French training him. Probably the RAF but under the auspices of the French.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: And then in the usual way the wheels worked somebody said, ‘What’s this guy with a Scottish, with an English name doing in the French Air Force?’ Jack was then humped out of one into the other and we got him at OTU. His language was quite a problem for a while but we got to know about it. We then went on to Wellingtons at OTU at Market Harborough. And, I don’t know, I can’t remember the dates at Market Harborough. I need to look up my logbook.
BB: That’s ok.
AML: But you can fill them in after. I think we went to Market Harborough in ’44 some time. I can’t remember when. August ’44. I need to look at my logbook. You’ll see it in the logbook.
BB: Yes.
AML: ’44. Market Harborough I think. And we left there and when we did our stint we did a hundred and ten, about a hundred and ten hours on Wellingtons at Market Harborough. The reason we did so many is another story I wouldn’t bore you with. Anyway, and we then went home on leave and came back as a crew to — what did I say it was? Heavy conversion. 1654 Heavy Conversion Unit.
BB: 1654 Heavy Conversion Unit at Wigsley.
AML: Wigsley. Wiglsey.
BB: Yes.
AML: Flying Stirlings.
BB: Yes. How did you find the Stirling?
AML: I liked the Stirling very much indeed. I was very taken with the Stirling. Very very strong aircraft. Very robust aircraft. Plenty of room in it. Because you know how tremendous.
BB: Yes.
AML: I got extra flying time. We used to carry on till the [unclear] you see.
BB: It was a long way off the ground. I remember. And I see you have a model here too which shows the size of it.
AML: That’s right.
BB: Compared to the same scale.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: That you have a Wellington or a Lancaster.
AML: Aye. It was wingspan. You know the story. The wingspans were reduced to get it in to the hangar.
BB: Yes. That’s right.
AML: Which didn’t do it any good at all.
BB: No. Not good at all. No.
AML: It was literally a Sunderland wing.
BB: Yeah. Oh I see.
AML: You see.
BB: Made by Short’s of course.
AML: But ninety nine feet which made it very manoeuvrable but it couldn’t get much higher than —
BB: Couldn’t get the height.
AML: Sixteen thousand and there.
BB: Which made it very vulnerable to flak and fighters.
AML: Very vulnerable to flak. Yeah. Yeah. Same types of turret I had in the Lanc of course. Exactly the same. Anyway —
BB: Yes. Frazer and Nash turret.
AML: Went from there to the same OTU, same conversion. We went to, joined Lancs at that unit. We were then, we went over to Lancs at the same place. 14 OTU.
BB: 1654 Heavy Conversion Unit.
AML: Conversion Unit.
BB: Yeah.
AML: We went on to —
BB: 15 Squadron.
AML: No. Not at that time.
BB: Ok.
AML: We were then posted when we finished that course. I forget how long. I don’t remember how long. It wasn’t terribly long. We then went to 15 Squadron at Mildenhall in March ’45.
BB: That’s right.
AML: More or less a year after we joined. March. I joined a year ’45. And the first thing we did when we got there we were sent to Feltwell to do a GH bombing course.
BB: Gosh that must have been interesting.
AML: It was only about a fortnight’s course I think. A beautiful little airfield. I think it was Harvards they had there. It was a fighter. I think. I can’t remember.
BB: Yeah.
AML: But it was a very nice peacetime ‘drome. A lovely place. I liked Feltwell for the short time we were there.
BB: So that was fighter affiliation.
AML: No. We simply did GH bombing training.
BB: Just bombing training. Ok.
AML: For the navigator’s really.
BB: Yeah.
AML: The navigators and bomb aimers. This type of GH bombing. I can’t remember.
BB: Yes. That would meant that you would have two yellow stripes on your tail when you qualified to be a bombing leader.
AML: Aye. GH leader. Some of —
BB: Yeah.
AML: Some of the aircraft had yellow striped on the tail.
BB: Yeah. That’s right.
AML: Some hadn’t. It was a means of identification.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: Then we came back from there just more or less overnight to RAF Mildenhall itself. Where we were originally. And we were there at RAF Mildenhall until we left in — when would it be? When did we leave Mildenhall?
BB: Mildenhall.
AML: ’46 I think we left Mildenhall.
BB: 20th of August ’46 I think you mentioned before.
AML: Yeah. They moved. They moved to Wyton. The squadron moved to Wyton.
BB: Did you go with them to Wyton?
AML: We went to Wyton. Yeah.
BB: Yeah. Ok.
AML: And the crew, the whole crew went to it. That was the last trip my skipper did. He was then posted as an instructor.
BB: Right. He was screened.
AML: Aye.
BB: And went off to an OTU.
AML: Aye and of course by that time everybody was getting broken up because ’46 the demobbing was taking its toll and people were coming and going. And new people were coming in and sort of general get togethers what was disappearing quickly because you were losing people left, right and middle. And as I say I was fortunate. I stayed flying until I was demobbed which was quite lucky for me.
BB: Yes. Yes. That’s right.
AML: Because 15 was a peacetime squadron. So that’s why I think.
BB: Yes. So with that pretty well organised.
AML: Pre-war squadron.
BB: Yes.
AML: That’s why we were probably kept as such. 44 and 15 and some of the others, 7 were all peacetime squadrons.
BB: All the wartime squadrons were disbanded.
AML: That’s right. Yeah. Were all disbanded.
BB: The peacetime squadrons were re-kept.
AML: Yeah.
BB: And some of the wartime ones were re-kept.
AML: Yeah well —
BB: Like 617 for example.
AML: We had Tuddenham. We talked about Tuddenham.
BB: Tuddenham. Yes.
AML: Just across the road from us.
BB: Yeah. Yes.
AML: A case of wheels up, wheels down, landing.
BB: Yes.
AML: Then we stayed there until we were posted. As I say we were posted to Wyton. Wyton, a beautiful station. A peacetime.
BB: Yes. I’ve been to Wyton. Yes.
AML: A very modern peacetime station.
BB: Yes.
AML: A lovely station. And I was there until I was demobbed.
BB: Yes.
AML: We did a lot of stuff after the war. Immediately after the war, before the war actually ended in Japan. We brought liberated prisoners of war back. We did supply dropping to the Dutch.
BB: Yes.
AML: I got a medal from the Dutch government for that. We did three trips of supply dropping to the Dutch and I think we did three trips for bringing prisoners of war back but I think we came in to —
BB: Yeah.
AML: Westcott.
BB: Westcott. Yes.
AML: I think so.
BB: In Bucks.
AML: Oh my memory’s not as good as it used to be I’m afraid.
BB: So — that’s ok. So how many actual operations did you do? You came in late in the war.
AML: I came in very late. I didn’t join —
BB: Did you do six or five or —?
AML: I did, I did, the crew did six and I did five.
BB: Ok.
AML: I took food poisoning.
BB: Oh right. So you did your five ops. And —
AML: Four daylights and one. Four daylights and one night.
BB: Ok.
AML: Kiel was a night op. And I understand that the war was still on this time — these supply drops trips and prisoner of war would have been turn ups. I don’t think they were actually given as that.
BB: No.
AML: And somebody said to us, ‘Oh you could, in a push, count them as ops,’ but I never ever did that.
BB: No. No.
AML: I didn’t do. But that was —
BB: No.
AML: That was on.
BB: But in terms of bombing German or French targets. Yes. Yes.
AML: Actual bombing Germany itself.
BB: Yes. As target. Yes. Yes.
AML: I did four daylights.
BB: Four daylights.
AML: Munster, Bocholt, Heligoland, Kiel and Bremen.
BB: And Bremen. And Bremen was your last one.
AML: Last one we did.
BB: Yeah. And did you, did you drop — did you have a chance to drop those big bombs?
AML: No. Not at that time.
BB: The Tallboys. No.
AML: 15 Squadron wasn’t doing that.
BB: No. No.
AML: It was a specialised.
BB: Yes. 617. Yeah. Yeah.
AML: 617.
BB: Yes.
AML: Was a specialised squadron for that.
BB: So you dropped the normal, you had a normal cookie and the normal other ones. Yeah.
AML: That’s right. A normal cookie.
BB: Normal load. Yeah.
AML: Or an eight thousand pounder double cookie sometimes.
BB: Right.
AML: And I’ve got to know, I think about a fourteen thousand pounds was about the standard bomb load we had.
BB: Bomb load. Right.
AML: Sixteen hundred gallons of gas. Fuel.
BB: Yeah.
AML: It’s in my logbook. You’ll see it there. Yes. Then 15 Squadron became a sort of — well we were doing a lot of training. Long range navigation exercises. Things like that. Then we started to convert to get the Lancaster ones, the ones they were using for the ten ton bomb.
BB: Yes.
AML: I forget why it was. Like B1 specials I think they were called.
BB: B1 specials. They took the nose turret off and —
AML: The top turret off.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And bomb doors off.
BB: And the bomb doors off to take the Tallboys.
AML: That’s right.
BB: Yes.
AML: We dropped those. We called it Operation Farge I think it was called. We did the dropping of these bombs on the U-boat pens at Farge.
BB: Yeah. Ok.
AML: Because they didn’t know when the war ended exactly what damage was being done with the Halifax that did this. Then we did — oh what was the operation? There was a point but I can’t remember. Where we bombed [pause] ships in the English Channel to see what would happen to bombs.
BB: Oh to see what the damage —
AML: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. Would be —
AML: We flew then at a certain height and we dropped a stick of bombs. I think they were five hundred pounders. And then if and when we went to hit a boat [laughs] It was HMS Firefly. I think it was. It was an ex-mine sweeper. They then stopped the bombing and the navy went aboard the board and put a real bomb in where our bomb had struck or where somebody’s bomb had struck.
BB: Yes.
AML: And then detonated that bomb from a launch so they could then say that an aircraft at eighteen thousand feet dropped a five hundred pound bomb going into number two engine room would do X amount of damage.
BB: X amount of damage. Yes.
AML: This is what we did. We did some research on that.
BB: It was to see what the actual damage was.
AML: That’s right. That’s right.
BB: To a vessel being hit by a bomb of that kind.
AML: That’s right. That was to give them —
BB: So they could either improve the munition.
AML: Yeah.
BB: Or just to see the damage.
AML: It was to give them a general – they didn’t physically know, you know, but now they could actually do it. So we did quite a bit of that.
BB: Right.
AML: And then we got, we were lucky enough to get a trip to Italy.
BB: You went to Italy to bring back POWs.
AML: No. To bring back guys on leave as well.
BB: Oh ok. Right.
AML: I think it was a reward. The squadron got a reward. The squadrons got a reward.
BB: A chance to go and get some oranges and stuff like that.
AML: That’s right.
BB: From Italy. Yes.
AML: Yeah.
BB: And some wine no doubt.
AML: Yeah.
BB: Excellent.
AML: I think we landed at Blackbushe.
BB: Blackbushe right.
AML: Coming back. Aye.
BB: And did your crew all survive the war?
AML: Yes. Yes.
BB: Do you keep in touch with them at all?
No. They’re all away now. My skipper died. I’ve been to see my skipper. My navigator and I went to see my skipper in Australia. I went on my own once and he came with me the next time.
BB: Right.
AML: And he’d been over here. Funnily enough I’ve just had a phone call from Australia saying they’re coming across for my eightieth — for my ninetieth birthday.
BB: Oh that’s nice. That’s good. That’s very nice. Now just to remind me. When were born again. What’s your date of birth?
AML: 1925.
BB: Pardon?
AML: 5.9 ’25.
BB: 5.9 ’25. And that was in Stirling.
AML: Stirling.
BB: Yeah.
AML: In this house.
BB: In this house. Right. Ok.
AML: I’ve lived here ever since.
BB: So you’ve lived in here.
AML: Ever since.
BB: Ever since.
AML: No desire to move.
BB: No. And you were with the civil service before you —
AML: Yeah.
BB: Before you went and when you came back from the war that’s what you did.
AML: I was —what do you call that? I worked in the War Department as a boy messenger initially.
BB: Ok.
AML: For a few months until I then got a junior clerks job. And when I left I was a clerk. What they called temporary clerks because there was no establishment at that time, I understand. During the war.
BB: And that was in —
AML: Stirling.
BB: In Stirling.
AML: [unclear] in Stirling.
BB: Oh in the military side of it there.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: Ok. Ok. And so they didn’t [pause] was that a reserved occupation in that sense?
AML: Probably it might have been. I don’t think so. Anyway —
BB: Because you volunteered for air crew.
AML: Aye.
BB: Yeah.
AML: But what happened then I understand. I don’t know maybe you shouldn’t quote this but I think, I think the people who had gone out had to get their jobs back. You know, after the war.
BB: Yes. They had to be kept for them yeah.
AML: And I went back in. And realise there would be no things like that. I then transferred to what were called the Department of Health and Social Security I think we called it.
BB: Ok.
AML: National Insurance, I think. In Stirling. I was still a temporary clerk.
BB: After, after the war.
AML: Yeah. After the war.
BB: Ok.
AML: And I was there when I had to sit the civil service exam.
BB: Right.
AML: If I wanted to become established. That was the only way you could keep it.
BB: Yeah.
AML: So I sat the civil service exam, passed it and was posted on a permanent, as a permanent civil servant to Elgin.
BB: Elgin. Right.
AML: Elgin. And I was in Elgin for seven — nine months. Then I got back to Stirling. Well I got back to Alloa.
BB: Yes.
AML: And then I got from Alloa to Stirling.
BB: Right.
AML: I was in Stirling until I was demobbed.
BB: Right.
AML: And became a HEO, acting HEO and I was that until I came out. Where did I come out? ’48. Would it have been 1984 ’85 ’86? I can’t remember.
BB: That’s when you retired.
AML: When I was sixty.
BB: Sixty.
AML: In my grade, at that time, you had to go. At your age.
BB: Right. You couldn’t, you couldn’t negotiate.
AML: You couldn’t stay on. Now you can go on forever I understand.
BB: Right. Ok. And you went to school in Stirling.
AML: Went to school.
BB: What? The High school?
AML: Riverside.
BB: Riverside. And that’s where you, did you get your school certificate there?
AML: Yeah. Well I got — I left at fourteen.
BB: Yeah.
AML: As most people did in those days. .
BB: Yeah.
AML: I think I got what they called was it a day school or—? I can’t remember actually.
BB: Yeah. But you had, but you had enough to qualify for aircrew.
AML: Well, I don’t think it really mattered what scholastic abilities you had if you passed.
BB: Passed their test.
AML: The sort of general assessment test.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. Well there were –
AML: Yeah — there were quite a few lads, that’s the wrong word, who were plumbers or joiners who had, you know.
BB: Done apprenticeships the same.
AML: That’s right.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And they went too. Yeah.
BB: Right. Ok. And your mother. Your parents lived in this house.
AML: Yeah.
BB: And obviously that was a great worry to your mother. Going off flying bombers.
AML: Yeah. Yeah. My father died.
BB: Rear gunners position in the bomber at that. The most dangerous position in the aircraft.
AML: My father died. I think in ’40. 1940.
BB: Oh right. Ok.
AML: He was a regular serving soldier prior to that.
BB: What? In the army.
AML: Yeah.
BB: Ok.
AML: A twenty eight year man I think he was.
BB: Did he die in the war? Or did he —?
AML: No. No. He was out of the war. He came out the forces in 1924.
BB: Oh. Ok. So must have been a boy soldier and worked his way up and all that.
AML: Yeah. He joined the Seaforth Highlanders when he was eighteen.
BB: Ok.
AML: I think.
BB: Ok. And these are his medals on the wall.
AML: That’s right. Then after, after the Sudan campaign. Kitchener’s Sudan campaign.
BB: Yeah.
AML: He came back to Egypt.
BB: Right.
AML: In fact I’ve got a letter there written when he was in Egypt. He lost a sister during the terrible flu epidemic. I remember that was in the letter.
BB: I see he’s got the Egyptian Medal.
AML: That’s right.
BB: And the First World War.
AML: Yeah.
BB: War and Victory Medal and looks like —
AML: He’s got a Long Service Meritorious Medal.
BB: Long Service Medals and Meritorious Medal. Yes.
AML: He also has the Russian Order of Saint Stanislaus as well.
BB: Oh right. Ok. Interesting. So he served in the first, he had been a combat soldier.
AML: A regular serving soldier.
BB: In those campaigns.
AML: He was —
BB: How much did his military service influence you in, you know in going into the RAF?
AML: No. I don’t think so. Terribly much.
BB: No. No.
AML: I was never really army orientated.
BB: No. I didn’t mean the army. Just the whole military culture was in the family.
AML: Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.
BB: Yeah. That’s good.
AML: My cousin was killed at Dunkirk.
BB: Was he? Yes. What was he in?
AML: He was in the Royal Artillery.
BB: Royal Artillery. So he’s buried in France.
AML: Somewhere in France.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: I don’t know where.
BB: Exactly where. No. Oh dear. Ok.
AML: Research to that.
BB: Right.
AML: And all my other cousins were in the forces during the war.
BB: Yes.
AML: You know. In various bits.
BB: Yes. But no brothers and sisters.
AML: No.
BB: No.
BB: But you remember your cousins were in the armed forces during the war. Did you ever meet up in Stirling? On leave and things.
AML: No.
BB: No.
AML: I never met them at all.
BB: Never met them at all.
AML: No. It just so happened that, you know —
BB: What was leave like? Did you get regular leave or did it — haphazard? Or —
AML: When you were flying on operations you got I think every seventh week was a leave week. I can’t really remember.
BB: Right.
AML: You got quite a bit of leave. We were quite fortunate. I think, I think it was every seventh week. I can’t remember to be quite —
BB: Yeah. But you did get regular leave.
AML: We got regular leave. Better than most people.
BB: Yes.
AML: Better than most people. Yes.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: Yes we did. Aye. Aye.
BB: I’ve heard that before from other veterans.
AML: Yeah. And we always got our [unclear], you know. Of course. I’m talking from an NCO point of view.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: I don’t know remember what the officers got. They would get the same as us.
BB: Right.
AML: But that’s, that’s their —
BB: Were you made up to flight sergeant before?
AML: After a year I was —
BB: You were a warrant officer weren’t you?
AML: I was, after a year I got my flight sergeant.
BB: Yeah. You went in as a, sorry, you must have joined as an LAC.
AML: Oh I think I was an AC2. I don’t know —
BB: Sorry, AC2.
AML: An AC2 I think.
BB: And then gone through your training.
AML: Training.
BB: And then you would have got your sergeant’s stripes.
AML: Sergeant. That’s right and then I got my flight sergeant.
BB: Now, was that before you went to OUT? Sergeant. To be sergeant.
AML: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Ah huh. When everybody went to OTU they were all aircrew by that.
BB: Yes.
AML: They were all qualified aircrew.
BB: Ok. Ok. So once you got your wings you made a sergeant.
AML: That’s right.
BB: And then you got your flight sergeant.
AML: Yes.
BB: And then you got your warrant officer.
AML: Warrant yeah.
BB: That’s very good.
AML: I got my warrant officer last. I told you. After nine months.
BB: Yes.
AML: You could take, you could take your flight sergeant after nine months.
BB: Yes.
AML: And your W after a year.
BB: Yes.
AML: But Tom said, ‘Oh no you should do it the other way around. You get more money.’ But you don’t get it you know.
BB: And was that was that on a selection basis or a board?
AML: No. It was automatic.
BB: Was it automatic?
AML: Yeah.
BB: Oh I see.
AML: Unless you really had been a bad boy or something.
BB: A bad boy. That’s right.
AML: As far as I can understand it virtually just came through on station, a station order, you know.
BB: Routine orders. Yes. That’s it.
AML: Follow through on flight sergeants.
BB: Right.
AML: In fact I’ve got the papers of my father.
BB: Right.
AML: The same way.
BB: Yes.
AML: In the army way back.
BB: So it was, it was on a good record and on time.
AML: That’s right. Yeah.
BB: Ok. That’s fine.
AML: And I got my warrant officer the same way.
BB: Yes.
AML: The warrant officer was slightly different. I can remember. I think you went in front of the CO.
BB: Yes.
AML: Or your squadron CO.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And he asked you a few questions. Blah blah blah. He knew of you. He knew of you of course by this time anyway.
BB: Yes, of course he did.
AML: And he would say ok.
BB: And he would have had your flight commander’s report and all the rest of it. Yeah.
AML: Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.
BB: And so you got your Tate and Lyle’s on your, on your sleeve.
AML: Aye. I’ve got a picture. Over there.
BB: Yes.
AML: Over there.
BB: Yes. Yeah. Got your Tate and Lyle’s.
AML: My Tate and Lyle’s. Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Yeah.
BB: That’s great. Now tell me about, tell me about, I’m going to ask you certain aspects of Bomber Command and you can say well did you know about these things or not. There was a lot of, there was a lot of problem with venereal disease in Bomber Command. So much so that the Bomber Command chief medical officer went to see Bomber Harris and —
AML: In his book yes. It’s in the book. Aye.
BB: Was there any instances of that on your squadron that you knew? I mean it’s not something that somebody would brag, talk about.
AML: No. No. I don’t think, I don’t remember.
BB: No.
AML: I don’t remember.
BB: The medical officer didn’t give the talks and all that kind of thing.
AML: No.
BB: No.
AML: No. We got a very terrible talk. A horrible talk at ITW. At —
BB: Initial Training Wing. Right.
AML: At Aircrew Reception Centre.
BB: Oh right.
AML: Most of us didn’t know the first thing they were talking about. That’s how innocent we all were.
BB: So naive and young then.
AML: Oh absolutely. People don’t believe it. We were really.
BB: Yes.
AML: You got an odd guy who’d been a bit of a man of the world sort of style.
BB: Aye. No.
AML: But the rest of us we knew what women were and all the rest of it.
BB: Ok.
AML: But that was it.
BB: Alright. That’s fine.
AML: No it was —
BB: No. It was fine.
AML: It was a sort of movie. I mean they actually, you know.
BB: You grew up very quickly no doubt.
AML: Yeah. It was an American made movie.
BB: Right.
AML: About how they met and this guy goes with this lassie and all the rest of it.
BB: Right.
AML: And then graphic pictures of your [laughs]
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: Thingummy.
BB: All the aftermath of all of that yeah.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: But to scare you as well and to give you information.
AML: Aye. It did. I never ever met anyone to my knowledge.
BB: No. No. Ok. Well as I said it’s nothing you would sort of say, hey. You know. But the other thing I want to talk about is LMF. Lack of moral fibre. Did you have any knowledge or —
AML: I never met anybody of LMF.
BB: No. Anybody on your squadron or the station that —
AML: Our first navigator.
BB: That you know.
AML: Our first navigator. We’d had a long protracted training at OTU because we kept losing people.
BB: Right.
AML: We lost two navigators at OTU.
BB: What? They were scrubbed?
AML: Aye. Scrubbed.
BB: Yeah.
AML: The first one just suddenly packed up his nav bag one night and said, ‘I’m not having any more of this.’ And disappeared. That’s the last we saw of him.
BB: Right.
AML: I don’t think it was LMF. It was just a case of —
BB: Just got out of it.
AML: I mean he was fully qualified to be a navigator.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: And then the next thing what happened to me was much the same. Two navigators on the trot and of course —
BB: That would have delayed you graduating from OTU.
AML: Yeah. Of course the pundits said to us, ‘Oh you’ll get a lot of hours in Wellingtons you’ll finish up in the Far East in Wellingtons.’ This sort of thing. You know. That’s what happened to us. That’s why we were held up first of all.
BB: Right. Ok. And the other and the other issue was morale generally. Because at your time with, in Bomber Command it was towards the end. Was morale fairly high?
AML: Oh aye. Very high. Yeah. Yeah.
BB: Yeah. I mean the losses had, the losses in Bomber Command were horrendous.
AML: Oh aye I’d be the first to admit that. It was unfortunate of course. People getting killed the last day of the war.
BB: Yes.
AML: That happened.
BB: Yes.
AML: But we didn’t have the colossal losses they had in —
BB: 1943.
AML: 1943/44.
BB: 1944. Early ’44. Yeah.
AML: Oh No. No. No.
BB: The Battle of the Ruhr. The Battle of Berlin.
AML: That’s right. That’s right. That’s when the chop rate—
BB: Were more or less gone
AML: That’s when the chop rate were really something to —
BB: But German night fighters were still flying.
AML: Oh yeah.
BB: When they got the fuel.
AML: Yeah.
BB: And the flak was just –
AML: Yeah. Flak was, your biggest worry was flak.
BB: Did you ever get to see any of the German jets?
AML: Yes.
BB: The Luftwaffe jets.
AML: Yes. I saw a 163 in actual action. It’s all in my logbook.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: And we went to [pause] the last raid of the war we did. I saw a 163 way below us [schwoooo noise]
BB: That was the Bremen. Bremen.
AML: Bremen.
BB: Yes.
AML: Aye. Aye. Aye. But no —
BB: It didn’t, it didn’t attack or —
AML: No. It had come up — I think 5 Group went to Hamburg the same day.
BB: Right.
AML: And —
BB: Of course you were in 4 Group.
AML: I was in 3 Group.
BB: Sorry. 3 Group.
AML: Some of the things I’m telling you now is on reflection. I mean I would need to really, you know think what exactly it was what it was on reflection I can remember.
BB: Right.
AML: Because I don’t want to line shoot to you under any circumstance. No. That was, that was, I saw a 16. I saw, I saw 262s in Germany after the war.
BB: After the war. On the ground.
AML: We were over in France.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And I saw them there.
BB: Yeah.
AML: They were certainly a very terrible aeroplane. Wonderful.
BB: Right. Now. Dropping the food parcels and other things to the Dutch. That must have been very rewarding.
AML: Oh very. Great. Great.
BB: Because the Dutch were starving at that stage.
AML: The great thing about it was you were allowed to fly low.
BB: Yes.
AML: Down to two hundred or less. Three hundred feet. In fact lower. My skipper took us down to about twenty eight feet some of the time. We were so low. Because he wanted to low fly and I used to say I’m getting water in to the tail turret [laughs] We flew low over —
BB: You did three of those you said.
AML: Pardon?
BB: You did three trips.
AML: We did three trips.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Yeah. Yeah
BB: And then the other humanitarian thing was bringing the POWs back.
AML: That’s correct. Bringing prisoners of war back. Yeah.
BB: From Italy and Germany.
AML: Yeah. The Americans were flying them from either lower or upper Silesia and we were picking them up at Juvincourt.
BB: Right.
AML: And I can remember I think the station was run by Germans as far as I can remember. Nearly all the German people seemed to be able to do the menial tasks there.
BB: Yes. Right.
AML: And then we, the Japanese war was still on of course.
BB: Yes. Of course.
AML: We were bringing them back from Germany at that time. Yeah.
BB: And they, they were obviously very pleased to get, be getting home.
AML: Oh yeah. Yeah.
BB: How many could you get in a Lancaster?
AML: I think I can remember off hand. It was either thirty or twenty six. I can’t honestly remember.
BB: And they all sat on the floor.
AML: Yeah.
BB: Or wherever they could.
AML: Yeah. They used to say in the air force you know this is a rubbish and that’s rubbish. I never saw organisation so wonderful as supply dropping and the prisoners of war. When we, when we went out to bring the prisoners of war back I can remember I was given a bag and in it was discs. And on the disc was a stencilled number one, two, three, four, five, six.
BB: Yeah. Whatever yeah.
AML: And on the fuselage someone had stencilled numbers inside the fuselage. And the idea was that I gave you a number five disc and you went in and the other gunner would say, ‘There’s number five. Sit there.’ And he sat on the floor.
BB: Yeah. Ok.
AML: At number five.
BB: So it was like a boarding, a boarding pass today.
AML: It was really.
BB: Yes.
AML: A very highly organised.
BB: Everybody had their place they had to sit.
AML: That’s right.
BB: And this would have been worked on a centre of gravity basis in the aircraft presumably.
AML: It must have been. Although it was some of the, some of the crew wanted to see land and of course they moved about, you know.
BB: Right.
AML: And I said, ‘Now don’t move about.’ You know.
BB: And did you ever go on any Cook’s Tours as well to look at the German cities that had been bombed.
AML: Yes. I did the Cook’s Tours as well. Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
AML: You’ll see the places we went to.
BB: Yes. That must have been quite sobering.
AML: We took, we took ground crew with us.
BB: Yes. Yes. Ground crew and the ground crew and the people from ops and the WAAFs.
AML: That’s right. Aye.
BB: And so on. Yeah.
AML: Took them with us. Aye.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: I forget where we went.
BB: Ok.
AML: You’ll see it.
BB: Did bomber Harris ever come to see you at the station?
AML: I think he did. As I told you, I think, yesterday.
BB: Yes.
AML: I can’t honestly remember but I’m almost certain somebody told me he did — I can’t, I would be wrong to tell you.
BB: No. No. He did go around.
AML: I’d be wrong to tell you. Yeah.
BB: How was he perceived by the guys on the squadron? Was he just, was he just Harris and that was it or –
AML: Oh aye. He was —
BB: Or did they actually —
AML: He was a good leader.
BB: Yeah.
AML: He did a lot for aircrew. He, again this is all —
BB: Yes.
AML: Sort of —
BB: Your own opinion. Yes.
AML: General talk.
BB: Right. Right.
AML: I don’t know how true or how bad it is.
BB: Right.
AML: But I understand he was the person who wanted every aircrew be commissioned. Or everybody LACs.
BB: Right.
AML: And I mean no different. He wanted all crews to be the same because they were all taking the same risks.
BB: Right.
AML: It couldn’t have worked that way.
BB: No.
AML: But that was the idea.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Most pilots of four engine aircraft were commissioned.
BB: Yeah. Or warrant officers.
AML: Or some —
BB: Yeah.
AML: We had two ome sergeant pilots.
BB: Yeah. A lot of sergeant pilots.
AML: They blotted their copy book but were so good they stayed as they were.
BB: Yeah.
AML: If you came on a squadron it was possible to be still a sergeant. Might have been a flight sergeant by the time he got to bomber, to thingummybob.
BB: Yeah.
AML: But there was. You’ll see on the crew list there.
BB: Yeah. Sergeants.
AML: Sergeants. Aye.
BB: And and and then you came out – what in ’47.
AML: I came out in ’47. I think it was ’47.
BB: ’47. You know the war had been finished a while so you had all that civilian.
AML: Flying.
BB: Flying. And you had obviously bringing back prisoners of war still at that time.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: Some weren’t being released until late.
AML: Yeah. Yeah. We converted on to Lincolns before I came out.
BB: That’s right. Because they were —
AML: Tiger Force.
BB: Tiger Force. That’s right, they’re the ones that were going to go to Japan but didn’t happen because they dropped the atomic bomb.
AML: No. Just as well.
BB: Yes. And so you didn’t consider staying in as a regular? Transferring to the regular air force after the war.
AML: Yes and no. But then somebody said, ‘Well, ok you stay in.’ Who the hell wants a gunner when the war’s finished? I’d have to re-muster probably.
BB: Well it had them in the Lincolns so you would have been a very experienced air gunner if you’d stayed on the Lincolns.
AML: Ah. No. I mean they were on the Lincolns. Ok
BB: They’d probably give you a job on ops or something like that.
AML: I didn’t – Unless I was flying I wasn’t interested.
BB: No. Ok. So you weren’t tempted. One because you had this very good job in Civvy Street which was being held for you.
AML: Well that’s right.
BB: Yeah.
AML: At that time it wasn’t such a good job. Just a normal clerk’s job.
BB: But it was a regular job.
AML: But I had a job to come back to.
BB: It was a regular job.
AML: Plus the fact my mother was living alone.
BB: Yes. Exactly. Here.
AML: Here.
BB: Right.
AML: And I thought well what am I going to do?
BB: Yeah. That’s right.
AML: Funnily enough I met quite a few chaps who I’d served with in the squadron who had stayed on and signed on and finished up at Lossiemouth.
BB: Oh yes.
AML: And when I went to Elgin. My first posting with the civil service at Elgin.
BB: That’s very close to Lossiemouth.
AML: I met one of these guys, one or two guys in the pub. They said, ‘You should go back in again. The money’s good.’ And I half thought of going back.
BB: Yeah. Because you could have re-mustered.
AML: Oh well.
BB: Because they, you were, once they awarded your brevet.
AML: Yeah.
BB: You wore it forever.
AML: You wore it. Yeah.
BB: Unless you did something really wrong.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: And they took it away from you.
AML: Yeah. Oh no.
BB: But you know I —
AML: They couldn’t take your brevet off you.
BB: But when I was a reservist I was one for thirty three years. When I first joined as APO, acting pilot officer up at Kinloss and other stations you had these old hairies as we used to call them. Who still had their —
AML: That’s right.
BB: You know, wartime brevets on.
AML: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
BB: But they’d been re-mustered as ops clerks.
AML: Did you never, did you never fly at all Bruce?
BB: In Nimrods.
AML: Oh Nimrods.
BB: I used to fly in the Nimrods.
AML: What as? Not as aircrew though.
BB: No. I was —
AML: I thought you said the technical. Aye.
BB: Well I was in intelligence so I was there to look at things. Yeah. Yeah.
AML: No. I never thought much about that.
BB: No. No. But they were a great bunch. And of course the Nimrod is a multi crew aircraft.
AML: That’s right.
BB: So it had kinships to Bomber Command.
AML: Oh yeah. Yeah. That’s right.
BB: You know. You had your crew.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: And you know everybody stuck together and —
AML: Oh you could read each other like a book.
BB: Oh yes. And of course we had to brief those crews much the same. And it hasn’t changed. You know, they’d all come to briefing. They’d sit down. The wing commander would stand up. Or the group captain would stand up. The curtains would be drawn.
AML: That’s it.
BB: Just like that.
AML: Aye.
BB: And they would either go [groan] another Atlantic trip or another Mediterranean trip or wherever it was. And all the plot would be up there. Where everything was.
AML: Isn’t it funny that you found out about your crew in many ways? Our wireless operator thought he was the greatest wireless operator in the world.
BB: And was he?
AML: I don’t know. But anyway we had an exercise we did occasionally to go out to the North Sea or out to the Atlantic to — navigation really .
BB: Yeah. Nav ex.
AML: To find a weather ship.
BB: A weather ship.
AML: Or a destroyer. Or something.
BB: Yeah.
AML: I can’t remember all the details. And you had to signal and of course he was in the astrodome and of course aldis they had in the Navy you see —
BB: The aldis lamp.
AML: Aye.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And I always remember he couldn’t read so he said to send up, ‘Please send slowly.’ [laughs] He couldn’t read the navy. You know, they were, they were tremendous. You know.
BB: Yeah, that’s right.
AML: I’ll always remember that.
BB: That’s right.
AML: And my skipper. He hated, he didn’t like landing in the half light and it used to annoy my navigator furiously because you were coming back and I’ m talking about, this is basically after the war. Of course during the war you were restricted what you could and couldn’t do. A long cross country you know.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Our navigator was a great one for food. He was desperate for food. And he would say, ‘I’ve packed up my nav bag. You’re alright. You’ll be over the fields in ten minutes.’ And Jack would say, ‘I want a dog leg.’ And he would get a fury, ‘What the hell are you on about?’
BB: I want to eat my sandwiches.
AML: ‘I want to land in the dark.’ And I said why do you like landing in the dark?’ He said, ‘What I can’t see doesn’t bother me.’ [laughs]
BB: Yeah. Well that’s very true.
AML: Yeah. That was him.
BB: Yeah.
AML: He liked to land in the dark. Yeah.
BB: That’s good. That’s right. And then of course when they came back from their trips in the Nimrod, just like in Bomber Command, we would sit down and debrief them.
AML: That’s right.
BB: And they used to hate that.
AML: Aye. Aye.
BB: Because they wanted to get away to their bed or get their breakfast.
AML: That’s right.
BB: Or whatever.
AML: The trouble with that was with your egg. We got an egg with everything.
BB: Yeah. But you really had to be very strict with them and say, ‘No. Let’s get this done and then you can go.’
AML: You had to get an egg with everything.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And the favourite was, ‘I’ll have his egg if he’s not coming back’
BB: if you’re not coming back.
AML: This sort of thing.
BB: And of course you must have seen even even at that late stage of the war, bomber offensive, you must have seen vacant chairs at breakfast and —
AML: Aye well —
BB: Guys that didn’t, that went out and didn’t come back.
AML: Funny. We were very fortunate on 15. I don’t think the time I was on it we had a very heavy —
BB: Casualty rate.
AML: Casualty rate. Funnily enough one of the chaps in the Aircrew Association was on 15. A hell of a nice bloke. He was shot down in France. I didn’t know him in the squadron but he was shot down in France. Had quite a rough time getting out. Eventually captured and became a prisoner of war.
BB: Right.
AML: And was on The Long March.
BB: Right. Ok.
AML: He was on the same squadron as I was. 15.
BB: Right. That must have been.
AML: Quite a lucky squadron. 15.
BB: That wasn’t great.
AML: I don’t think we had colossal losses on 15. I don’t know why or how. I don’t remember saying oh —
BB: What about, what about losses at OTU? HCU. There must have been crashes there.
AML: They were quite high. Yeah. Those. Somebody said to me after, of course, please understand I’m talking fifty sixty years ago.
BB: Yeah. I understand.
AML: Somebody said there was almost a crash every day at OTU. Now, I couldn’t ascertain that or confirm that. I don’t know.
BB: Well —
AML: But there were certainly one or two crashes when we were at OTU.
BB: I know that my late uncle was killed as an OTU. Instructing.
AML: Yeah.
BB: At Westcott. Number 11 OTU.
AML: Yeah. And we had one or two hairy do’s at OTU.
BB: And we paid, we paid tribute to him a couple years ago and all the guys at OTUs. And I did my research and something like eight thousand aircrew killed at OTU in Bomber Command. And just in Bomber Command.
AML: Probably would be. Well the chop —
BB: From collisions or bad landings.
AML: The chop rate on Wellingtons was quite high.
BB: Yeah. One in ten.
AML: They were second hand aircraft at OTU.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: I mean they weren’t, aircraft had been sent to OTU. You know.
BB: Yes.
AML: So we understand. I don’t know.
BB: And they went didn’t they? Yeah. Well there were, yeah. Well you take the Whitleys. They were front line aircraft.
AML: That’s right.
They were relegated to the OTUs.
AML: That’s right. Yeah.
BB: You know you went on the Whitleys.
AML: Well, they certainly were.
BB: And the Wellingtons as well.
AML: Wellingtons at OTU.
BB: And the Stirlings of course at the Heavy Conversion Unit.
AML: Aye. Heavy Conversion. Stirlings. Aye. Aye.
BB: Because they didn’t, they —
AML: They took them off.
BB: You either went to a Heavy Conversion and then on to a Lancaster Finishing School but you —
AML: I don’t know why we did that.
BB: Didn’t do that.
AML: This is the thing. Quite a lot of people — had to believe, hard to believe I was on Stirlings. Most of them went from OTU to Lanc Finishing School.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AML: And that was it. I don’t know why we went on. I don’t know. Just the way the system worked.
BB: The system worked. Yeah.
AML: We went, they went on to to that and we weren’t really long on Stirlings.
BB: No.
AML: But we were on Stirlings anyway.
BB: But it gave the heavy, it gave you the heavy, it gave the crew the sort of heavy experience that they needed.
AML: Aye. I liked the Stirling very much indeed.
BB: It looked a very roomy aircraft.
AML: It was a very roomy aircraft. Just like a big Sunderland.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: Really is.
BB: Yes.
AML: And I liked it.
BB: A Sunderland with wheels.
AML: Yeah. I didn’t care much for the Lincoln.
BB: Well it was a kind of a hybrid wasn’t it? You know.
AML: A hybrid. I didn’t care much for Lincolns.
BB: We’ll add a bit of this and add a bit of that.
AML: We had a twenty millimetre cannon on a Lincoln.
BB: Yes. Yes.
AML: And a lot of trouble with them and a lot of trouble —
BB: They used them in, against the terrorists in Malaysia.
AML: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: The Australian Lincolns anyway.
AML: We never did that and I think latterly the two turrets that took the twenty millimetres out the turrets. I can’t remember honestly but I flew in the tail of a Lincoln all the time. I flew first, initially I flew as an air gunner instructor and for a while the rule was flying that when we first got Lincolns they were nearly all ex-instructors that were in the top turrets.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: Because the bloody cannon recoiled across your head. If you moved out the road the, rotated, you could get your head taken off easily.
BB: Right. Right.
AML: These are things you remember yet you couldn’t put down on paper and say this is the God’s truth. You know.
BB: No. No. No. No. I know.
AML: It’s just the things I remember. It’s difficult.
BB: Well Alistair thank you very much for for telling us your story and we do appreciate it very much. And I’ll now terminate the interview. And I’ll have a look at your logbooks and other bits and pieces if I may.
AML: Aye. Aye. Sure. Sure.
BB: Yeah. Thank you.
AML: A lot of that stuff of course you’ll probably be able to edit out. You won’t use it all will you?
BB: No. No I don’t think so.
AML: No.
BB: And also thank you for signing the sheets and the other forms that I’ve asked you to sign. Thank you very much. So —
AML: Aye. Aye. Aye.
BB: So —
AML: I think you’ll find that most aircrew don’t really talk very much about it to other people unless it’s aircrew people.
BB: Right.
AML: And you can always find out somebody immediately they start saying, for example that I was told to bale out, and the crew – the nineteen crew baled out, you know someone makes a mistake.
BB: Yeah.
AML: You know right away that they’re actually line shooters. Ahat they said, you know.
BB: Yeah.
AML: You can’t really.
BB: No.
AML: Well we never did that, you know. Like on our squadrons, we cleaned our guns, well a lot – we didn’t do that on our squadron. I depended on the gunnery.
BB: The armourers used to do that.
AML: Yeah.
BB: But mind you had to be able to clear blockages in the aircraft.
AML: Oh yeah. Sit down, blindfold, sit down blindfold.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: And all that sort of thing.
BB: Right.
AML: But each squadron had its own different thing that depended how the CO looked at a particular item.
BB: Right.
AML: He might say, ‘Well I want you to do this,’ and you did it.
BB: What about dinghy drills and things like that.
AML: We did that as well. Yeah.
BB: Was that a regular thing?
AML: I don’t think so. No. We went to [pause] now where did we go? When we were at OTU we went to the Leicester Baths.
BB: Yes.
AML: And the baths were blacked out.
BB: Sure.
AML: And you got in first of all and they said, ‘Right this is your dinghy drill.’ There were RAF instructors I’m sure there. We all went up in one of these big huge big gareys. These big trucks they had with maybe four or five crews. Or three crews anyway. And we wondered why these guys were all dashing to go in such a hurry, you and saying, ‘You’re bloody keen,’ but we didn’t realise that if you went in first you got dry flying kit. If you went in second you put a dirty, you put a wet flying kit on.
BB: Ok right.
AML: You put the flying kit on you see.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And you had to use this and you had to jump in the dinghy with the lights out.
BB: Yeah.
AML: That’s why you had a whistle.
BB: Sure. Because it was dark. Simulating Bomber Command.
AML: The whistle was supposed to, aye. That’s why the aircrew used whistles.
BB: Whistles.
AML: Every aircrew whistled you know.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And you did this. Then they turned the dinghy upside down.
BB: You had to right it.
AML: You’ve got to right the dinghy again.
BB: Right.
AML: Exactly.
BB: And it was a five man dinghy. Or a seven man dinghy.
AML: Five man dinghy. Something like that.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
AML: These are the sort of things you remember. That was one of the things. Why were they in such a hurry to get in? Because that was —
BB: What about using the parachute? Did you have any training?
AML: No.
BB: On how to do that?
AML: No. Never had any training on the parachute training at all.
BB: It was just there it is. Count. One. Two. Three. And pull the string.
AML: That’s right. That’s right. I think basically the reason would be that if you had to do a parachute jump and something had happened you wouldn’t jump in an emergency.
BB: No.
AML: You know you may be frightened to do that.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. And that’s very good wisdom. Yes. Because —
AML: I think probably. I don’t know.
BB: If it’s your first time to go anyway.
AML: These are things that have come up in reflection when you were talking to a pupil.
BB: Yeah.
AML: Maybe that’s the reason why we didn’t do that.
BB: Yeah.
AML: You know.
BB: Ok.
AML: I don’t think there was any sort of written down about that. But we did do a bit of, of what I can remember now, we were in a hangar and we seemed to get a harness on.
BB: Oh yeah and swing a bit.
AML: And you jumped and you swung down and landed.
BB: Yeah. Just tell you how to land.
AML: Close your knees and this sort of thing, you know.
BB: Yeah. And what about parades and drills? Did you do squadron parades?
AML: Air crew are notorious for not wanting drills you know.
BB: Yeah.
AML: We really were a rough shower. I mean we were really were. I mean we got away with murder. I mean I must admit.
BB: Well I can assure you they haven’t changed.
AML: Yeah. If we could get away with it we got away with it.
BB: Yeah.
AML: I’m not going to bore you to tears of course, I hope.
BB: No.
AML: One of the great things you would probably know — after the war things changed of course dramatically as you can well imagine. And they had, I think it was a Friday. I can’t remember. The whole airfield shut down. And you had to participate in organised games.
BB: Oh yes.
AML: The whole station. WAAF. Everybody had to go on organised games. And it was organised in as much as they came around the gunnery section and said, ‘Right. Who’s all going to be play football?’ ‘Who’s all going to play rugby?’ ‘Who’s all going to play netball?’ You know. This sort of thing. It was all down. Your name was put down.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And I, when you’re out in your —
BB: Your PT kit.
AML: Your PT kit and your fancy [unclear] You went down to the front of the hangars and somebody would, I can’t remember, maybe the station would detail all the crews. Who’s going to be?’ And I hated sport. I hated sport. I never was fit. My father was a football referee and all that. I had no time for sport. I still don’t have time for sport. Anyway, I thought well this is bloody terrible.
BB: So what did you do? How did you get out of that?
AML: Well —
BB: Stay in the goal and hope nobody came near it.
AML: No. Well it was quite regular. You had to be back at a certain time. And I thought how can I bloody get out of this thing and I happened to hear one day to hear oh he said there’s flying. I said how do you get in to Waddington, or how do you get to so and so. Oh we’re flying. And I thought so I said to skipper, ‘Did you hear that?’ Because he hated sport too. And I said, ‘Can you no volunteer us to fly crews up?’ And he always wanted somebody in the tail, we all, so that would be a good idea. We got away with that for, however, we didn’t get away, they said right. I said, ‘Well what’s the least supervised job you could get?’ Cross country running.
BB: Go away and hide somewhere.
AML: So we used to run in to the pub [laughs] we used to put a pound note in our shoe.
BB: Yeah.
AML: And around the nearest pub and sit in the pub and then come running back.
BB: Running back. I see.
AML: We got caught out because when the squadron sports came on.
BB: Yeah.
AML: They couldn’t get relay through. The three mile relay run. They couldn’t get, the skipper said, well the CO said, ‘All those who did cross country running can do it.’ We nearly got killed doing this ruddy thing after. You know.
BB: Never mind. Ok.
AML: We were found out, you know.
BB: Right.
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AMcPhersonLambA150726
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Interview with Alexander Lamb. One
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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eng
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00:47:13 audio recording
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Pending review
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Bruce Blanche
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2015-07-26
Description
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Alexander Lamb grew up in Scotland and worked in the civil service before he joined the Royal Air Force. He flew five operations as an air gunner with 15 Squadron.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Wales--Bridgend
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Julie Williams
11 OTU
14 OTU
15 Squadron
1654 HCU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Gee
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lincoln
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Feltwell
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wyton
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/317/3474/APorteousB161102.1.mp3
80867f55350bb6d512266a1b71d81dc6
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Title
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Porteous, Bob
Bryson Porteous
B Porteous
Description
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One oral history interview with Bryson "Bob" Porteous (441356 Royal Australian Air Force).
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-11-02
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Porteous, B
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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BG: OK, so I’ll introduce us just the way they suggest. Which is, this Interview is, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Bob Porteous and the interviewer, interviewee is myself Barry Green and its taking place at Bob’s home, Meadow Springs Estate in Mandurah. So, first of all Bob, um, you, you’ve signed the agreement?
BP: Yep.
BG: And so the mainly the focus of this is your experience in Bomber Command but if, to set the background, [clock chime] where did you grow up?
BP: Born in Kalgoorlie, grew up in, er, William Street in Perth, Customs House in William Street in Perth. Then, er, my mother divorced the old man because he was infe— infidelity and then she married a Lawrence Povey of Povey’s Furniture Manufacturers and we lived in North Perth. And I did all my schooling in North Perth School, state school, and then Perth Boys’ School and, because the old man was an abusive drunk, I went bush. Did a few things in the, er, bush, came back and he — first thing that Seth [?] asked me what was I doing after a couple of years in the bush? And I said, ‘Oh, I don’t know. I think I’ll go and enlist or something or other on Monday.’ Of course that was on the Thursday and I said, he said to me, ‘What about tomorrow?’ Being a Friday. So, I said, ‘OK.’ And Friday morning I went into the A and A [?] House I think it was then and enlisted, and I was the last person on my course, and we went to England.
BG: What, what year was that?
BP: It was 1942 and, er, luckily he unknowingly gave me a good, good thing, because everyone who enlisted on the Monday they went to Rhodesia to train and then they went up to the desert and they are either still in the desert or they became POWs in France, in Italy. So, his words about when I should enlist actually served a good purpose.
BG: Right. So, what happened from there?
BP: Trained at Cloncar [?]. I have a friend here. He’s in the next room. He’s an ex-padre and we always have fun and games over the fact that he’s a padre and I tell him that I spent more time in chapel than he did. And he wanted to know why. And I said we were billeted in, in a chapel. So I sent three months in a chapel. [laugh]
BG: So, this is when you were training as a navigator?
BP: As a navi— no, I was just training as an airman then and we were then sent to Mount Gambier. That was a navigation school and, er, gave, given the choice of going Point — to other places, Evans Head and all the rest of it, and we had a lot of air cadets fresh, fresh out of school, who all wanted to go to Port Pirie because it was nearer to Perth, but we being a few old heads we said, ‘No. We’ll go to Evans Head.’ So, according to the Air Services and all the rest of it, we, well I, went to Port Pirie and all the other boys went to Evans Head. They went up to the islands and they’re still up there.
BG: So, from there you were — at what stage did you first get into an aircraft?
BP: A trainer or a real one?
BG: Well, the trainer, yep.
BP: The trainer was, oh, about three or four months after I enlisted and we had great fun and games because three of us were training as navigators and we had three, er, navs and a pilot to train in an old Anson and they drew straws as to who was going into the first leg of this triangular course and I lost, and consequently I drew the nav table, and I opened the nav drawer to put my charts in it and found that the chap who had it before had been sick in it [laugh] so consequently the pilot, when we returned, he complained to — and the chap they found out who had been the person who had been sick and he had the job for the next couple of weeks of examining all aircraft every morning before they took off to find out that they were fit, besides his ordinary work. [laugh]
BG: So, how long did you spend there before getting into, er, operations?
BP: It took three, five, six months of actual training before we were graduated as navigators and got a weeks’ leave and then we went to Melbourne and we were billeted in the embassy. Gee, a cold bloody hole that was [laugh] and then came the day we were issued with our, um, woolly flying gear, which was no indication we were going to England but that was no indication in the Services of the gear that they issued you, er, meant that you went there because I have known people being sent to the tropics with their woolly flying gear. Any rate, we were on this boat and we were told we were going to Vancouver because we had some EA air cadets, EATS cadets, who were to be trained in Calgary. So, after twenty-odd days on the ship we pulled into Panama. The next thing we know we go through the canal and we land in Boston. And, er the OC troops on the ship says, ‘We want volunteers to take these air cadets to Calgary.’ So they numbered us all off and he said, ‘Alright, everyone on — with a two in their number is a volunteer.’ So, I had a free trip according to the CPR railways to Calgary with these four hundred-odd cadets. Consequently when I got back to Fort Hamilton in New York all the rest of the chaps who’d travelled on the boat from Melbourne they, had been shipped to England. Unfortunately that ship was torpedoed and they were lost in the North Atlantic. So twenty-two of us had an extra couple of weeks in New York where I was fortunate enough to be billeted with a millionaire. [cough] His name was Mendenhall which was a — not an excuse — was a bit of a blow because the final drome that we had in England was Mildenhall so I had to think to whom I was talking and what about I was talking as to what was the name of the place, whether it was Mendenhall or Mildenhall. [laugh] Any rate, we, er, oh —
BG: So, how did you find New York? How long were you there for?
BP: A couple of weeks. They knew absolutely nothing. They were dead bloody hopeless. My opinion of the Yanks and their learning ability is zero from what they knew. Lofty and I were walking down Fifth Avenue dressed in our RAAF uniforms and a couple of cops pulled us up, thought that we were Austrians [emphasis]. They couldn’t bloody well read.
BG: Yep.
BP: ‘You come from Australia?’ They had said, ‘I thought, oh, that’s a little island in San Francisco Bay?’ Alcatraz. And things like that they were bloody hopeless [emphasis] as far as geography and things like that were concerned and the more I learned about them during the war the, the less I thought about them. [clears throat]
BG: Right, so from New York ship across the —
BP: Ah, as there were only twenty-two of us we were put on the Queen Mary, QM1. We had seventeen thousand Yankees, a regiment of them, on the boat going over and they — everyone had to do a job. So they said, ‘Twenty-two Australians. What on earth will we to do with you?’ So they gave us submarine watch on the bridge. It took — we were two hours on, one hour off. It — where we were billeted down on the boat I was Blue C4. It took twenty minutes to — from there up to the bridge, you spent two hours on bridge watch, then twenty minutes back, which gave you twenty minutes time to go to the toilet and that and you had twenty minutes to come back again so we told the first officer, ‘What’s the use of giving us an hour off to go and do that? We might as well stay up on the bridge.’ So, he agreed the thing. So the first officer and Captain Bisset (he was the captain of the Mary at the time) — so we used to do navigation exercises so I’ve navigated the Queen Mary. [laugh]
BG: Right. You’d more time to think about that.
BP: Yeah. Well, so, er, navigation exercises for five days. The twenty-two of us we navigated the Mary across to Greenock in Scotland.
BG: Right. Go on.
BP: Got, got to Scotland and we were then sent down to, mm, Padgate. That was a PDRC outside Warrington, and of course mum had always told us if you go anywhere do see as much as you can of the place. So, one thing and another, the first thing we did was when we put our gear down and all the rest of it, ‘What’s the time? Let’s go into town.’ We wanted to see town so during every spare moment my friend and I we visited whatever we could. So, over the whole of my tour in England, I visited most of England in one time and another. Any rate, we went to Warrington. We used to go in there and come down to the coffee shop, which was opposite the railway station, have our tea in there. Actually it wasn’t coffee. It was a bun, sticky bun and tea, and so when the train pulled up we hopped, raced across the road and hopped into the train because we didn’t have to pay for it, being servicemen, Australian ex-servicemen, Australian servicemen. Only this happened to be — we did that on the Wednesday and the Thursday. On the Friday we did the same thing only the train happened to be special train going to Manchester. So, the first time I went to Manchester was by mistake. [laugh]
BG: So your first operational unit when you got to the UK —
BP: [cough] It all depends what you call operations because when we were on, um, at Bruntingthorpe we were on Wellingtons at the time and we were given the job of annoying, under Operation Annoy, and annoy the German air flak gunners on the Friesian Islands and all up and down the coast. It was our job to fly up and down just out of range, toss window out the chute and all the rest of it, and annoy the German gunners. So, they didn’t call that operational but we were two crews still hut [?] we flew H-Howard and another crew flew, Bert’s flew M-Mike and we, er, did the first twelve trips alright and came the thirteenth one and we got down to the briefing room and found out that the silly looking operations officer there had made a balls up of the things and we were listed to fly M-Mike and Bert and his boys flew H-Howard. So when we came back after the raid they told us that it was OK to land but beware of the burning plane in the funnels. That was Bert and his crew in our plane. So that was my first experience of Bomber Command and their misdeeds.
BG: So, you, you were up in the, you went up in the wrong plane basically but as it turned out the best plane to be in?
BP: Yes.
BG: And this — what squadron was that?
BP: That was on Heavy Conversion Unit, HCU, before we even got on the squadron so we thought to ourselves if we can do things like that before we got on the squadron what do we do when we get on the squadron and we went to — I was posted — actually, I went to the ablutions hut one morning and had a shower and a shave and all the rest of it and someone stole my navigation watch. So the crew was delayed a couple of days while we faced a court of enquiry as to how and why and where I’d lost my watch. When we got on the squadron we found out that the crew that had taken our place were, um, had been in this particular hall and we were delayed on entering because they were cleaning the, their gear out. They had, er, taken off the previous night and hadn’t come back. So, could have been us.
BG: Yep.
BP: Any rate I was on 622 up at Mildenhall and being a base drome, three other aerodromes around the place, and a couple of [unclear] squadrons on the drome we got the dirty work. Why should they go out to one of the satellite dromes and give their information and all their rest of it to someone else. So, being new chums on the drome we got the, er dirty work of doing things around the place. So as far as operations work my work on operations was very limited and — [cough]
BG: So, getting back to your — this was your first operations and your, your log books. Tell us more about that.
BP: The things that we did with the odd jobs around the place and my six [unclear] for instance, they got us on a special trip. We supposedly flew an admiral and a commodore with their aides. In actual fact was all they wanted was a Lancaster to fly to Gibraltar because the officer, secret service officer down there said, ‘Alright, we’ll do a trip over to Tangier.’ And when we went to Tangier we had a chappie there who was another, er, secret officer, who gave us a tour of the town whilst they left, whilst we had left the plane on the drome, which we were not supposed to do but he, being a wing commander — alright, he says, ‘Leave the plane there and go into town.’ You don’t disobey the wing commander so we did. When we came to take off we found out the plane was heavy. We had flown from England to Gib, taken off and flown into Tangier. By then we should have only had, oh, probably a half a petrol load. But that plane was fully loaded. We found out of course when we landed at Gib we were heavy in the landing and of course you don’t land a heavy Lancaster the same way as you do one that’s half empty, so they had to tell us we had a full load on board, but they didn’t tell us what the load was. Turned out to be seven tons of gold [clears throat] so in actual fact it had been a gold smuggle. They wanted the gold that had accumulated from Africa into Fez and Tangier and then taken to Gibraltar to pay for he lend lease of the British war effort so it’s one of those little things and yet it’s not in my log book. When I have been to Canberra to talk to my old veterans over there I found out that their log books do not agree actually with what they did. One chap has had twenty trips written into his log book that he never did. I mean, he said twenty-five trips, you know, he actually did but he’s listed as forty-five trips. The other twenty-five, where did they come from? The same as my log book. I do not have it to be able to verify it, but I have seen a copy of the records and the records that, that have been obtained from the — Canberra and all the rest of it do not agree with my memory of the log books. So, knowing a few things that have happened during the war and that, the log, the record keeping of the Air Force or Air Ministry and that is up the balls up.
BG: So were you mostly flying as the one crew or was the crew —
BP: We — a chap Quinn and crew, the same crew all the time and, er, luckily we kept it al— always. They were mainly things that, um, other crews around the place — we were very disappointed over the fact that we didn’t do more trips, operations, than the, that the others but we were listed as the “bunnies” round the place doing the odd jobs. So, they put us on things like, um, gardening and Operation Manna, Operation Exodus bringing back ex- ex-POWs from France, from Juvencourt and that and we had the job of Operation Python, bringing back, taking people out to Italy and bringing them back from there. So, shall we say I was not a fully operational man. I did my work with 622 but the thing was after the VE Day they wanted people to fly with Operation — what was it? Out to Australia, out to Okinawa — I can’t think of it.
BG: The, the nuclear thing or —
BP: Yeah. They wanted us to go out to, um, Okina— join up with a crew, not that crew, but to join up with 460 Squadron to go to Okinawa and fly and bomb Japan and — what’s the hell name of that?
BG: Do you mind if I keep going because, you know this will be edited? So, I’m trying to think the name of the place.
BP: I’m trying to think of the name of the thing that we all joined. [clears throat]
BG: As in a —
BP: Well, it’s a well-known thing that all the Australians in England were given the opportunity of joining 460 Squadron to come out here and we trained for a couple of months, low level work, heavy loads and things like that to fly out to Okinawa and bomb Japan.
BG: Right. So this was after —
BP: After VE Day.
BG: After VE day, right.
BP: When VJ Day came along the — we had a Wing Commander Swan. We were being briefed to take off the next morning when the chappie came in with the wireless thing and showed him and said Japan had surrendered. He said [slight laugh] — he threw the message down on the table and he said, ‘I don’t know what you buggers are going to do but I’m going in the mess and get drunk.’ He said, ‘Anyone who wants to go into town go and see the adjutant.’ [laugh] So we all shot through to London for V, VJ Day.
BG: So how long were you in England?
BG: ’45.
BP: ’45. And we got on board this ship, the Orion, SS Orion, which set out to reclaim its record to Australia but had broke down in the Bay of Biscay and unfortunately the, er, one of the insurer’s representatives had found us at Southampton and as we had surplus Sterling money on us got us to insure our kit bags and that and, er, I said OK and I had a couple of pounds so I insured my kitbag. Any rate we went back to Southampton and they sent us on a train up to Millom [?] in Scotland. They reopened an old drome at Millom and instead of sending us on leave as they should have done. So we stayed at Millom for about a fortnight and they promptly found out that we were causing too much damage to their turkey flocks because, being Australian and that, we were very expert of killing sheep and skinning them and also ringing turkey necks so consequently they sent us on leave in London and we finally left England on the Durban Castle and then —
BG: This is after VE Day?
BP: After VJ Day.
BG: After VJ Day.
BP: And it was not until I arrived back in Australia that I learned that my flying kit bag had gone missing for which actually I had insured and got forty pound, yeah, Australia was still in the Sterling bracket, I got forty pounds insurance money for the kit bag, but the thing was I lost my log book.
BG: Ah, right back then.
BP: Yeah. So that’s where it is.
BG: So any, any particular missions that you went on? You’ve mentioned a few. Any others that sort of come to mind?
BP: Actually no because we just did — we dropped people over in France and things like that so we didn’t do actually bombing missions or mine a harbour or two or something like that but the war was nearly over by the time we had so all my actual war experience was on 622 but I still, we still had to fly.
BG: So you were flying over, over enemy territory in Europe?
BP: All the time, yeah. We, even though they had, the Air Force had a lot of planes and crews doing nothing they put on tourist trips where we had to fly people, ground crew and interested parties on the drome, we flew them to places like Normandy and the, um, the bomb sites and things like that, and also up and down the Rhine to see how the bridges that we, that had been bombed and things like that. So, er, I cannot claim to have done very much bombing experience.
BG: So, you said you did some mining, mine laying. What, what was involved in that?
BP: Oh, that was on Hamburg Harbour and, um, one place we did bomb was Hamburg but that was just a mass raid and everything like that because, er, later on the experience that the padre (he is an ex-serviceman padre) and when I told him when I was examining the window and told him, you know, it looks nice and bright this scene of a burning town and told him that it looked like Hamburg and that and he said, we bombed that and he said, ‘Yes. I had a job of clearing it up afterwards.’ They sent him over as a padre in that place so he and I don’t exactly get on well together. [laugh]
BG: Right.
BP: I’m trying to think of that name [beep sound] and I forget what the American, New Zealand squadron was to represent them.
BG: Yep. I’m just trying to get the name. I can’t help you there. I’ll put that in the back and it might pop out a bit later. So did you cop much — had any mechanical problems on your flights?
BP: I don’t know about mechanical problems, the only time we got shot at properly we were on supposedly on a safe [emphasis] trip dropping food to the Dutch. We were to fly in over a racecourse, I think it was this first time, and drop food. Lancasters had all the food up in the bomb bays in the open top coffins. And, er, sometimes the drop bars would come high up and the food would drop and sometimes the whole of the assembly would drop, and you could see a, an incendiary container hit a cow, or something like that and everyone had cow meat for lunch. And when we came back the ground crew they said we were very lucky. They counted we had ninety-seven bullet holes in our plane and luckily underneath the navigator’s seat was one of these incendiary containers that hadn’t fallen off, and in the bottom of it was half a dozen dents from bullets, where the bullets had struck. So the worst raid that we had was supposed to have been the safest because we had four of those. [clock starts chiming] We got shot up the first time. The second time I think we had a couple of bullet holes in the wings but nothing as near as bad as that so, um, that did count as one of our operations.
BG: Right. So how many was in the crew?
BP: Seven.
BG: Do you remember them all? Do you remember names? Do you want to mention names or not?
BP: Oh, Frank Quinn. He got married over there. A chap, Nobby Clarke, was the bomb aimer, and we had Bill Day as the tail gunner, Chick [?] Anderson as mid upper gunner and — I forget the name of the wireless operator. That was one of the things that as, er, Bert and his boys, before he bought it the — I was in the crew, I was in his crew and when they had a pretty good night in the mess his navigator got too, too well liquored up and he cycled across the paddock instead of going down the roadway and went, went over a creek, which was by then was frozen and the ice broke and he went into the water, and he went into the hut and other than getting dry or anything, he went to bed as he was and he got pneumonia and died. So the replacement chap was a friend of the other crew so we changed crews so the crew that had Bert and his crew, which I was originally on, was the crew that bought it. So the new crew was Frank. So, I outlived that one all right. [clears throat]
BG: A cat of nine lives.
BP: And a few more. [laugh] [clears throat]
BG: So, the mechanics of the aircraft. Pretty reliable? You didn’t have too many —
BP: They were very, very good. We lost, um, two motors one night on doing something or other and they gave us — they said they were no good, that they — we’d have to get another plane because they had no engines to fix it up so they sent us to, the duty crew, took us to Lindholme and Lindholme had a, a warehouse and alongside the warehouse had been a hut site for two dozen huts with their concrete floors and the air strip. And so went in and, er, signed for the new aircraft and the chap said, ‘Oh. That one there,’ he says, ‘You can have that one.’ So, okeydoke, and when we took it, when we looked at where we had to go to get to the strip, it was over these concrete bases, and he said — we complained or Frank complained that every time we went over a bump the wings, you know, fluttered and all the rest of it, and he rang up on the radio and said that it was a horrible bloody ride, and the chap said, ‘The wings stayed on,’ he said, ‘That’s part of the test.’ So, okeydoke, so we had a new aircraft we had to take up and test out so, um, apart from that, the loss of two motors things, otherwise things were OK. The only accident that we saw occur was one where we were doing low level flying around two hundred feet in Britain in dusk. That is not recognised as being very healthy and, er, this particular time I, being a pretty good navigator, I was in the lead and the others had to follow. We had our tail plane, er, painted so that they recognised who was the lead navigator. And so I was in front and the rest were following me and the chap at the rear, his, one of his motors caught alight and he said, ‘Bail out.’ And at two hundred feet bailing out at that height it’s a no-no and they couldn’t find out where he landed and it was a week later they found out that he had landed in a farmer’s silage pit, so he drowned in a load of shit.
BG: Not nice.
BP: Not nice. [clears throat]
BG: So, tell us more about the navigation. What, what you had to work with. So, were you good at maths at school is that why you went down that path or —
BP: Actually, I was colour blind and I did, when I was at ITS, I had to go into town once a week or twice a week and that, and see a Dr Rardon [?] and have my eyes tested, and all the other things that he did, and I found out when I got back to navigation school that all our maps were orange not red. So, consequently, being red colour blind didn’t affect me. So all the lines on our radar maps were either black or orange so as you — they were big, not semi-circles, eclipses [emphasis] with the radar stations that were bases in England so you had, er, diverging lines going out over the continent, so you had to do your cross, T-crosses, where they crossed and so it was the further you went from England the worse it got. There was no such thing as accurate map reading. The only thing it was that we had a new invention. They called in H2S. It was a radar dome in the bottom of the aircraft which gave you an excellent view of things like rivers or lakes or, um, coastlines and things like that. The only catch was that the Germans knew when you operated that they could trace the signal so if you turned your H2S on you were liable to be to be shot at. And of course they had just developed the German night fighter with up firing guns so consequently they lost a lot. So they did not like you using H2S too frequently. The only other time that we had trouble, one place we were at, that they had, um, war-time huts. They were ordinary, just about cardboard, you know, hard cardboard and that —
BG: Right.
BP: [cough] And a couple of the chaps had been to the mess this night and they’d come in the rear door and they had left the, er, outside door open because they had a door, you know, a light lock on the two doors at each end and, er, they’d hear this plane buzzing round the place and this silly little chap went down and opened both doors and stood in the door way. ‘What’s going on?’ Of course, the chap came down and shot him. [slight laugh]So, we — there were twenty of us in the hut and we had to claim baggage insurance on the baggage insurance, go down to the warehouse and claim new baggage.
BG: So, in terms of your navigation, did you use D-Beam, inter-directional beacon? Did you track on VHF transmitters or anything like that?
BP: No. Dead reckoning all the way because they were just — you were so, so scarce on navigation aids it was dead reckoning. Unless you were good you’d had it. [clears throat]
BG: So, I mentioned I worked on the Becker navigation which I understand came out of Loran. Did you have any experience with that?
BP: No. We didn’t on that. The Pathfinder Force boys were the ones that got Loran. They wanted, everybody in Pathfinders wanted it, and they were busy making Pathfinder Force a regular thing, so we just did not get it because it wasn’t available.
BG: Right. Right. So, do you want to perhaps describe your, your job from — so prior to the, um, mission you’d be — tell, tell us what you’d be given and the process you’d go through. You’d have some time to plan your course before you went out or what?
BP: We didn’t have much time. They’d take you down to briefing around about 4 o’clock and you’d be given what, where you were going that night and they’d tell you what routes you had too and they would say what the expected winds were. And never rely on the Met men. They were bloody hopeless. They were worse, they were worse than the people we have at present. And they would tell you it would be a nice fine night and of course there’s be 10/10 dense bloody cloud and then you’d have the opposite. So, you know, you’re going to have a bumpy ride tonight and it would be a clear, clear fighter moon night. So you just didn’t know what was going.
BG: So, on the overcast nights, um, your dead reckoning’s pretty challenging I would think?
BP: Yes. Oh, you had to, you had to be on the ball, what you were, and of course the thing was that if it was a clear night you could actually see [emphasis] people. Of course the odd person didn’t switch their lights off and things like that. They were bloody hopeless. You were supposed to go with no navigation lights, nothing, and yet you could see half a dozen lights around the place. You knew, you knew that you were somewhere right because you had someone following you. Whether you were in the wrong place you had half a dozen people in the wrong place.
BG: So the missions that you were on were mostly not bombing missions so you were a lone aircraft. You weren’t part of —
BP: Part of three or four people, planes that went out.
BG: Right, so in most cases there would be, you wouldn’t be a single aircraft going out?
BP: No. Very rarely were we ever single.
BG: So you kept in visual contact with the other aircraft or —
BP: Tried not to. [laugh]
BG: Tried not to. Right.
BP: Because of the reason, the fact of the enemy could see the other aircraft and have a go at him and they could also, also see us so it was a case of beware, get out.
BG: Yep. Did you encounter German fighters much or
BP: No. We were lucky in that regard that we didn’t. We, once we had a few stray shells come. Where from, we hadn’t clue. We were flying, you know, I wouldn’t say it was dense cloud. It was very misty, foggy and things like that a couple of stray bullets came up through the — well, they weren’t bullets. They were blody fifty millimeter shells or something like that. Yeah, they tore holes in the fuselage sort of thing. But uneventful.
BG: Do you want to have your cuppa?
BP: Oh, yeah. You can shut it off for a while.
BG: At the end of the war, did you come back by ship?
BP: Yep. We came back by the Durban Castle. That was the ship that the, after the war, the steward murdered someone, some girl, and pushed her out the port hole.
BG: Life was cheap in those days. [laugh]
BP: Yeah. We had an ENSA party on board and, er, we were coming down the Red Sea. Nice clear night, nice and smooth, the moon was out and things like that, and the ENSA party was on the front deck. They were, um, doing Service songs and Service skits and things like that. The Dominion Monarch pulled up alongside of us. They had the, er, Maori Battalion on board. So there they are, the two ships, within ten yards of each other, doing twenty-odd knots down the Red Sea and the ENSA party having a whale of a time and come midnight [coughing]. You talk too much and you get a tickle in your throat.
BG: Right. [pause] So, do you want to call it quits with that? Have you had enough?
BP: No. I’m just going to finish off there. [pause] So, it was on New Year’s Eve, this New Year’s Eve party, and it came to the end of the party at midnight and there was a hoot on the hooter from both the ships and the Maori battalion gave us the haka. It’s a sound that you, a scene that, I’ll never forget. The two ships, the moonlight and where we were in the Red Sea and the haka being — one of those, one of those things that you would never ever forget. And that’s the thing that war always reminds me of, the finish of the war.
BG: Yep, yep. Then you came back to Perth?
BP: Yes. The old man was still alive. So, I told mum, ‘Alright. He’s alive.’ So I went and joined 37 Squadron, where we used to fly up and down to Japan and, er, we served BCOF in Japan where there was a few points to the Philippines and that and we used to fly up to New Guinea, New Britain, [unclear] round Australia. Even flew politicians around from bloody Canberra to Melbourne or Sydney and back. Don’t ask me about that.
BG: So, how long were you in the Air Force after the war?
BP: Three years. [clears throat] And one of those things, I met a girl. Her husband used to work for the manager. He was where they had a B and B up in Noarlunga and he used to be manager of CSR in Fiji and he had this B and B and they were looking for someone to make up a four for bridge. They used to hold a bridge night each Tuesday night. So they found Norma and her husband had been up in New Guinea during the war. He got killed. So, er, I finally met her. So the four, two of us lived for four years. She suddenly dropped [clears throat] dead one day. She was the second fiancée of mine to die. The first one was by a flying bomb in England. We used to — it’s a funny thing. I was on the, on the squadron and all the rest of it. Bomber squadron. We used to go on leave to Croydon which was the middle of flying bomb alley. Over the road from us on the thirteenth green from us was a flak battery. They used to fire across the roof of the house at the bombs as they came up the Thames valley and Faye and I used to go to the local pub two hundred yards down the road. Been to an English pub?
BG: No.
BP: Smoke, smoke and more bloody smoke and all the rest of it and of course one thing is I don’t smoke. So, I said, ‘Better get out of here. You know, too much smoke and all the rest of it. Come for a walk down the road.’ ‘I want to talk to the girls.’ ‘Talk to the girls, alright.’ So I went down the road and I only got a hundred yards down the road when a flying bomb flattened the pub. So instead of going on leave I went to a burial party.
BG: Bad lot.
BP: One of those things yeah.
BG: So you got back to Western Australia. So, you said you sent the rest of your life in Western Australia?
BP: Yeah. Oh, sent a few years in Sydney. Then, er, mum wanted me to come home and I said I wouldn’t come home until Seth [?] died. Of course he died on the operation table from something or other. So, I managed to get through uni and that ultimo and came over here and I joined the BP refinery and they were wanting people to manage the place so they sent a few of us over to Grangemouth to learn how to run a refinery. You should have heard mum, ‘You’re away for fifteen bloody years and all the rest of it. You come home for a fortnight and you go to London for six months.’ [laugh] She was not amused.
BG: So I guess your engineering experience through the Air Force would have been invaluable in your later life?
BP: [clears throat] Well, I was their emergency controller. By day I did nothing. All, all the time I did nothing but if the siren went and there was an emergency I was in charge of the place. So people had to do what I told them. I didn’t have to know names. All I knew was what people could do, so I said, ‘You do it.’ And of course they couldn’t argue about it because I could tell them what to do.
BG: Yep. So getting back to your time — so you were always RAF crews. They didn’t mix crews up of Air Forces?
BP: Well, we had a Scottish engineer. He was from Glasgow. His family were in, er, Coventry when it got bombed. That was the reason why he was a very good — he joined the Air, he joined the RAF. When we used to go to France on Operation Exodus and other such things, rather than wear the RAF uniform, we used to outfit him with the blue RAAF uniform. We were WOs at the time so we also gave him a WO badge. He was only a sergeant, flight sergeant, in the RAF but he was a WO in the RAAF. [laugh]
BG: Right. So in the week typically how many missions during the —
BP: Two, three but of course during the off times, in the summer time, they used to send all the spare bods out to the farmers to pick peas and dig potatoes and you name it and we were veg— I wouldn’t say we were vegetarians, we were gardeners. [laugh]
BG: Right. So that was part of the job.
BP: Part of the job. I’ve got some photos if you were here long enough to show of me doing things like that.
BP: Recreation. Now, that’s censorable. [laugh] No. I knew Faye but I was a good boy. For recreation we used to go to London. Of course, thing was we used to be paid what? Thirty bob a day then. And we had an odds incidental form, Form 1257. You got paid three pence for a bloody hair cut or three pence a week because you didn’t — a hard living allowance or you didn’t have a batman or things like that, so every three months we used to get this sheet which was about another thirty pound. So, every month we had about forty pound to spend and every third month we had about sixty and so we used to go to London and spend it.
BG: So, it wasn’t a bad life if you survived.
BP: If you survived it was a good life because I used to go to wherever I was. I’ve seen more places in England than a lot of English people purely because they iss— as we were RAAF people we were allowed a rail pass to anywhere in Britain.
BG: Right, right.
BP: The RAF or the English people could only go to their home town. We went to anywhere so go down to the pay clerk and say you were on leave, for your leave warrant, and coupons and that. ‘Where are you going this week?’ We had a map. ‘Oh we’ll go there.’ [laugh] Been over cotton mills and steel works, you name it, and all the rest of it. I’ve been from Plymouth up to Lossiemouth and things like this. We had bags of fun.
BG: Well, it’s been great talking to you Bob and I really appreciate you taking the time.
BP: Well, if you had a couple more days to talk I’d tell you what I really did. [laugh]
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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APorteousB161102
Title
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Interview with Bob Porteous
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:52:20 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Barry Green
Date
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2016-11-02
Description
An account of the resource
Flight Sergeant Bob Porteous grew up in Australia and after spending time in the bush he joined the Royal Australian Air Force. After training and spending time in the United States, he travelled to Scotland on the Queen Mary. He flew operations as a navigator with 622 Squadron from RAF Mildenhall. On one occasion he describes a secret operation to Gibraltar and Tangier on a Lancaster that brought back gold. He also explains his role as navigator and equipment such as H2S.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Great Britain
Morocco
United States
Gibraltar
England--Leicestershire
England--Suffolk
Morocco--Tangier
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
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1942
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
622 Squadron
aircrew
Cook’s tour
entertainment
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Mildenhall
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/351/3522/AWoodardP160512.1.mp3
676f65ec3a4b2d9e7d1226df655c32cf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Woodard, Peter
Peter Rowlands Woodard
Peter R Woodard
P R Woodard
P Woodard
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. One oral history interview with Peter Rowlands Woodard (b. 1924, 1810707 Royal Air Force), photographs, a warrant certificate and a note of operations carried out by H R Woodard. He was a wireless operator and flew operations with 192 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Peter Rowlands Woodard and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Woodard, PR
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and I’m in St Alban’s today on the 12th May 2016 with Peter Woodard and his wife Irene and Peter was a wireless operator, signaller and I’m going to ask him to talk about his life starting with his earliest recollections that he has. Peter.
PW: As regards when, where I was born.
CB: Yeah.
PW: Well I was born of course in Banbury in Suffolk and had a twin, the youngest of twins, because my twin brother Howard he was always climbing in seniority by arriving twenty four, twenty minutes before I did [laughs] and then of course we went to the local Catholic school because my father was Catholic so and we were christened Catholics but my mother was Protestant, but she had agreed of course to bring us up in the Catholic faith. And from then on of course I went to the ordinary school at Banbury and then we moved to Beccles for a while and then from Beccles we moved back to Banbury and then on to Colchester. My father was a bit of a wanderer alright he was in the print trade and of course he became a printer’s leader and then he we moved from there to Tunbridge in Kent and from Tunbridge in Kent we moved to St Albans and then of course along came the war. My father was a, he was a bit of a wanderer anyway but he, he for some reason or other joined the army again, course he was in the signals regiment, signals corps in the first World War and of course he re-joined and it became the Royal Corps Signals then when he was in it. And being an old man, as he was, he got himself a nice cushy job at Eastern Command Headquarters that was at Luton Hoo and he has his hands, he was a wireless man, he had his own little wireless cabin at Luton Hoo and he stayed there until the war finished and other than that he was as I say in the print trade. And of course my mother was in the print trade too she was in the book binding department and that’s how I came to follow the print trade in a way, just successive and of course I was apprenticed at the, with the [inaudible] publishers and suppliers limited, Campfield Press in St Albans that’s how I became a book binder. Of course then I was in the air training corps and of course when the war was on I then went into the RAF and I was on deferred service for a while before I entered and then went up to Lords Cricket ground for air crew receiving centre, then from then on I went off to radio school and I was at Yatesbury number two radio school I think it was, Yatesbury in Wiltshire and then of course from there I went on to Dumfries, when did I first start flying, I’ve got my log book here so it’s easy enough to find, my first trip was in 1943, in September 1943 in Adomally doing radio transmitting tuning and receiving and all that sort of thing, that was in 1943 and then at the end of 1943 I then moved from Yatesbury to where are we, oh, air crew, operational auxiliary flying unit OAFU they called it at Dumfries and flew there in Andersons and that was in March, no April 1944 until the end of May 1944, no not the end of May, yes it was yes, then I moved to Edge Hill which was satellite which was OTU and part of Chipping Warden actually and that’s when I crewed up with Flight Lieutenant Fawkes who became my pilot and by then my flying hours had gone on to sixty nine to seventy hours day light and forty-five hours night time. Then of course from then on I went to, still at Chipping Warden with Flight Lieutenant Fawkes doing our OTU training and we finished there August 1944. Then we came Chipping Warden, by then we were crew you see, Wellington crew so that was pilot, navigator bomb aimer and wireless operator by then and we flew from [unclear] squadron at Fulsham until 1945 was it 1945, 1944 rather yes 1944 flying from Fulsham then all the time until we did our first special duty operation on October 1944 doing special duty ops up and down the Dutch coast and carried on doing that sort of thing the French/German border in 1944 October, still October yes. There we are and then we got, still doing special operations on the Dutch coast and the first one, that’s in 1944 too, our first one [pause] first operation was 18th of February 1945. By then my skipper was squadron leader and our first operation was to Rehiene a 3 30 trip three hours thirty night time and Dortmund the next one was Dortmund then Dortmund again on the Danish coast rather, and , like I said my skipper then was now OC of A flight 192 Squadron, and then of course he then started signing my log books as the squadron made the OCA flight, then in 1945 March 1945 we were special operation [unclear] Frankfurt, Hannover and stayed in Germany all in Germany until the end of March no, Heligavan was in April 1945 then the last one we did operation of the war, I think it was the last operation of the war too, special duty operation to Flensburg that was in north Germany wasn’t it, yes that’s right up in the north of Germany yes, and then it was certified that we completed a first tour of operations [unclear] signed by Wind Commander Donaldson and then 102 Squadron Pocklington. I was then left Foulsham and being that much younger than the rest of the crew I was sent up to Pocklington and so I left the crew and Ben, I always remember Ben saying when you get up there, don’t forget, when it’s all over and done with, we shall, I’m going to insist that we meet at least once a year and that was very good of him and he did, he made sure we did, we didn’t miss a year at all. One year we, he had business in France and we all went over to Paris on the strength of his company which was very good [laughs]. Anyway, Pocklington, that’s right, Pocklington, I was with a Flight Sergeant Sandham who was a pilot and the crew there and we did a real cross country taking the ground staff to see the havoc over in Germany. And then that was with Pilot Officer Sandham. Then we moved to [unclear] and transfer, 102 Squadron it was then and we transferred to Liberator’s, troop carrying and we did that training until October, the end of October, and then in November we were doing the conversion still on Liberator’s but the pilot I had then was Pilot Officer West who had come straight from America where he had done his training so he, in fact I was the only member of the crew in transport command I was , had a completed tour of ops, I had a real raw crew, 102 Squadron Leader [unclear] that’s right Pilot Officer West and then we used to go backwards and forwards to India, that was in December 1945. We used to go base to Castle Benito, Castle Benito and then on to India that was the short-term on Liberator’s. Castle Benito, Cairo West Cairo West, Shairo, Cairo West, Shairo, Maripau that was the route we used to take. We were taking personnel out to India and then bringing some back. The whole bomb bay was sealed and had seats in the middle and some of the Liberators I wasn’t up on the flight deck I had a cabin on my own halfway down the aircraft and so to get to it I had to go through the bomb bay where the guests were sitting you know and of course I used to threaten them if I get any trouble I’ll get them to pull a [unclear] to let you out [laughs] which tended to amuse them a bit. They were mostly army people. We had one officer there and he said “God”, he said ‘I’ve gone across Egypt and the desert in a tank and one thing and another’, he said ‘but I’ve never felt as bad as this I tell you’ and he was really ill, he got sickness alright. So that was, carried on with 53 Squadron unwards on the India routes yes, [inaudible] to upward Eastray, Eastray to Castro ,Benito Castro Benito to Cairo West to Maripau and back it was a really interesting time and that went on until 1946 then. Yes April 1946, Lidda, Maripau, [unclear] with 53 squadron upward. In fact I did more distances flying then than I’ve ever done before backwards and forwards to India, Maripau, Shariba seven hours. It was coming back that was the main thing and of course that was the finish of my flying with with the RAF I came out of the RAF then and of course started flying again in 1951 and 1946 when I was in the reserve had to do reserve flying in Panshanger, that was handy that, that was flying in Andersons then and the pilots were citizen pilots. Mr Stewart, Mr Brown and Mr Snowden, Mr Snow and so on [laughs] [pause] and that went on until oh I did a stint at the reserve flying school at Cambridge and of course I was just in reserve then you see [pause] 22 reserve flying school, that would finish my flying with the Air Force then, that was on the 24th January 1954 [pause] and then of course the skipper was true to his word and every year we used to go on to a in the end there were only three of us, the skipper, wireless operator and the navigator and that’s when we had our annual trips [laughs] when we all went out, this in in Ben’s house, at .
IW: Look it up, would it be on there?
PW: Yes I was sitting in Ben’s house there [laughs]. That’s the same one isn’t it yeah [pause] in the New Forest he had a place down in the New Forest [pause].
CB: So every year you got back together?
PW: We did.
CB: In different places?
PW: Oh no, we, we, we used to go the New Forest, well for start off the first reunion was at , on the East Coast [pause].
CB: Okay, well we can look that up.
PW: Yeah, I can’t remember that now, and then after that we had a reunion in Blackpool.
CB: Hmm.
PW: Yep had a reunion in Blackpool. It was the Butlins, the Butlins we went to on the Norfolk Coast, what the heck.
CB: Cromer was it or somewhere like that?
PW: Hmm.
CB: Was it Cromer or somewhere like that?
PW: No, before you get to Cromer.
CB: Hunstanton?
PW: No, no it was right on the coast it was a Butlin’s holiday camp.
CB: Anyway we’ll look that up.
PW: And from then of course we used to have a reunion every year and Ben made sure that we got, in the end there was Ben the Skipper, Jock, Jock Scot, the navigator and myself, even the rear gunner he couldn’t make it any more, course he’s, as I say they were all ten years older than me anyway.
CB: Yes.
AW: I was still the boy.
CB: Yeah.
AW: [laughs] They called me the boy all the time.
CB: So what was it like flying in a crew where you were that much younger than them because they on balance were much older than most crews anyway?
PW: Well yeah , because they’d both been instructors, Ben as skipper was a teaching pilot, it was in his log book.
CB: Yeah
PW: Down there where he was teaching people to fly and Ken Scott the navigator he was the same he was teaching navigation and I think they both decided they wanted to see something of some action before it all ended and of course that’s when they decided to join up and it was at the OTU that Ben approached me, he was tall a six foot chap, and he introduced himself as Flight Lieutenant Faulkes, ‘would you like to be my wireless operator’ so I looked and I liked the look of him and the way he approached and it was all good, because we all used to gather in a hangar you know for this selection crew, crew selection and it worked you know, it was marvellous there was group of signallers, air gunners or WOP AG’s as I used to call them navigators, rear gunners and bomb aimers, that’s all we did, not flying engineers then because we were still on.
CB: Still on Wellington’s.
PW: Twins, hmm. So he approached me and he said ‘would you like to move on to as a wireless operator’ so I said yes sure and we gelled straight away and when we crewed up and the bomb aimer was Canadian.
CB: What was his name?
PW: Morgan, and trying to think of his name.
IW: Danny Hutchings.
PW: Hmm?
IW: Danny Hutchings.
PW: No, no that wasn’t his name he was with transport command.
IW: Oh I beg your pardon.
PW: This was when we crewed up originally and that’s it of course we had a mid-upper gun turret on the Halifax’s and on the Wellington, was there one on the Wellington, I can’t remember now.
CB: Not normally, no front and .rear
PW: Yeah, hmm, so.
CB: So it was a crew of six?
PW: Yeah, Hmm.
CB: Right, so this interaction between you as a boy and the others they were constantly ribbing you were they?
PW: Oh no, not really, I just looked on the skipper as a father figure, I mean he was so, so good to me really, I just had complete faith in him and in the navigator, I never felt queasy about any trip I went on with them at all.
CB: No. That’s when you were at OTU, how did , did Ben Faulkes look out all the other members of the crew or how did that work? Was he the instigator of the crew?
PW: As an OTU at Wellington we’d just had the.
CB: But in this milling around in the hangar, how did he go around looking for people?
PW: He came to me when he had already got to know Ken Scott.
CB: Right.
PW: Who was a man from Edinburgh, in fact he was a customs and excise chap in a brewery
CB: [laughs]
PW: And he’d tell us some tales about that when we used to have or reunions. He used to bring a case full of what he called a case of wee heavies, it was that strong isle stuff [laughs] he used to bring that in a big case to wherever we were having a reunion, at Filey, Filey in Yorkshire.
CB: Yep.
PW: We had some great fun there and of course we had the flight engineer eventually.
CB: That was at the HCU so where was your heavy conversion unit?
PW: we did heavy conversion on squadron.
CB: Oh did you, right.
PW: Hmm, we didn’t go to a heavy conversion unit.
CB: Right, do you know why that was?
PW: We converted from.
CB: Straight onto what? Lancaster’s?
PW: Halifax.
CB: Halifax, ok.
PW: Yes the squadron was a flight of Wellington’s and then a flight of Halifax.
CB: Hmm.
PW: And then a Mosquito and then a single Lockead attachment from the American Air Force, that was the 192 Squadron and of course they done away with the Wellington in the end.
CB: Yeah.
PW: And we converted to the Halifax on the squadron.
CB: Right.
PW: So when Ben was first Flight Commander we were on Wellington’s.
CB: Oh were you.
PW: And he was Flight Commander on Halifax’s.
CB: Where did the Flight Engineer come from?
PW: I don’t know where he came from.
CB: What was his name?
PW: He was commissioned man when he first came.
CB: As was the pilot?
PW: Yeah and the navigator was of course was commissioned, and the rear gunner he became, he got commissioned as well and so I was the only NCR in the squad, in the crew in the end, but , of course I was ten years younger.
CB: In the Wellington, in the Wellington you’re talking about.
PW: Yeah and the Halifax.
CB: And the Halifax. Right.
PW: Hmm, yeah and the Halifax, of course I , they put me up for commission and I had the interview with the CO, Donaldson, remember Donaldson don’t you? And he considered I was too young for a commission [laughs] and so that was it, I didn’t get the commission.
CB: Strange.
PW: So I was, I was myself, I was the only non-commissioned officer in the crew.
CB: Where did the bomb aimer come from?
PW: I can’t think where Ted came from, no not Ted, , yes he was a Canadian fella, he was an officer he was commissioned, he was Canadian [pause]
CB: Okay.
PW: He lived in the, what’s the big waterfall in Canada?
CB: The big what?
PW: The waterfall.
CB: Niagra Falls.
PW: Niagra.
CB: Right
PW: Yes he came from the Canadian side of Niagra.
CB: Now going back to your earlier times.
PW: Yeah.
CB: You were a wireless operator air gunner, did you do gunnery training?
PW: Yes I did gunnery training.
CB: And where did you do that?
PW: That was at Walney Island.
CB: Walney Island. So you did that after Yatesbury?
PW: Yes, yes.
CB: Okay, at Walney Island.
PW: Yes we went to Walney Island at some radio school
CB: Right.
PW: To get the air gunners certificate
CB: And from there you went to Dumfries?
PW: Dumfries, yeah, operation, Auxilliary Flying Unit they called it.
CB: Yeah. So what were you doing in the Auxilliary flying unit?
PW: We were just flying Andersons.
CB: Yeah but as a signaller or as a gunner?
PW: Well both, I was a signaller and a gunner.
CB: So it had a turret did it?
PW: We had to go, we had an aircraft tow and a drove and we had to fire at the drove and that was the gunnery school, I didn’t do any gunning, what was is, let me find my log book, oh I forget now what it said there. [pause] Is it in here?
CB: Okay, well we can look in the log book in a minute.
PW: Oh yes that’s the wireless operator, that was the Liberator that was.
CB: Right, so when you were at the OTU, you’ve crewed up so what did you do while you were at the OTU then Peter?
PW: AFU?
CB: At the OTU, at the Operational Training /unit.
PW: OTU?
CB: What were you doing there mainly?
PW: Well, well.
CB: You were working as a signaller at the OUT?
PW: Yeah, yeah.
CB: Or as a gunner or both?
PW: I was , I was doing wireless operator.
CB: Yeah.
PW: Didn’t do any gunning. Chipping Warden that was.
CB: Yeah, so what were you doing at the OUT as a wireless operator, what was your task?
PW: Just operating the, the radio equipment.
CB: Yeah but why was the radio needing to be operated, what was happening?
PW: Nothing really, I was just on cross countries and that was all.
CB: So you were flying across country, are messages coming into you or are you sending them out, what is happening?
PW: Yes, in the main it was radio silence, if the navigator wanted a fix I’d give it on the loop system.
CB: Right.
PW: Three or four stations, I gave him the time and where it was coming from and he’d get his positions from that.
CB: Right, so just explaining that, you’re tuning into a radio station.
PW: Yeah.
CB: Having tuned in you are then taking a bearing from the radio station.
PW: That’s right, yeah.
CB: Then you go to another radio station and you take a bearing from that is that right?
PW: That’s right.
CB: And you do a third one at least and that gives you the triangulation as they call it, is that right.
PW: So the navigator could plot where he should be.
CB: So you have to be quite quick.
PW: Oh yeah, hmm.
CB: Do you log the time between each tuning in?
PW: Yes well I didn’t have a log of course I just passed to the navigator straight away. Well he’d be sitting quite close.
CB: So how long did it take to tune in and get a fix as it were?
PW: [pause] I can’t remember.
CB: The reason I ask the question is that if the plane is moving and so he has to take account of that.
PW: That’s right yeah, hmm.
CB: In time.
PW: The speed, air speed and the wind direction [laughs].
CB: And how did you decide which station to take the bearing from?
PW: Well, you had various stations en-route you know and they would radio and say can you get a fix from so and so.
CB: These were civilian radio stations that you were using were they or beacons?
PW: No, no, no I don’t, [pause] they, were automatic I think.
CB: Ah beacons that are set up. Right, okay.
PW: You didn’t have to speak to anybody or anything like that.
CB: No, no.
PW: [unclear]
CB: So in essence what we’re describing is that, you’re listening out with your loop on the top of the aircraft?
PW: Yeah.
CB: You tune into a radio transmission and you then plot the bearing of that from the aircraft?
PW: Yeah.
CB: You pass that to the navigator with the time at which you took it?
PW: Yeah.
CB: You then go to the next one and give him the bearing is that right? Of the next one and give him the time you took it, is that right?
PW: Yeah.
CB: Did you do more than 3? Or was 3 enough for him to get.
PW: 3 was enough as a rule.
CB: Right. So you were needed to do it quite quickly did you?
PW: I can’t remember how fast I was going anyway [laughs]. No it wasn’t too quick I just used to give him the bearing that’s all.
CB: So when you weren’t doing that you were listening in.
PW: Yeah.
CB: And what were you listening in for?
PW: Well there was an what do you call it, a special frequency.
CB: Yep.
PW: Just 2 initials it was, I can’t think of it now.
CB: Right.
PW: I can’t think of it now, and then pass that on to the navigator.
CB: So what were you listening for?
PW: Just a signal that sounds like a, it was usually two digits, dah-di-dah-di-dah or something like that, 2 initials. They were broadcasting all the time.
CB: That’s what I mean, what were they broadcasting? Are they just broadcasting dot dash Morse code in other words?
PW: Morse code, yes.
CB: Or are they sending you a message.
PW: No just Morse Code, just Morse code signals.
CB: So was that at particular interval or was it a regular transmission that they were making?
PW: I think it’s a regular thing.
CB: Right.
PW: Hmm.
CB: Ok.
PW: Because there was someone there all the time.
CB: Because some signallers have said to me that on the half hour they had to listen to something.
PW: Yeah.
CB: This is when they’re on ops.
PW: Yeah.
CB: Ok, so anyway when you’re doing the cross country you’re trying to help with the navigation?
PW: That’s right.
CB: So then you changed to the heavy conversion unit onto Halifax’s?
PW: Yeah.
CB: How different is your role on the Halifax from on the Wellington?
PW: More or less the same, in our Halifax the rest position was taken up with the secret equipment.
CB: Right.
PW: Well I didn’t know anything about because I was just a straight wireless operator but we had a special operator who was usually a commissioned type and he had all his gear in the rest position in the Halifax and we used to go and of course half the time recording and they’d be searching for a start while we were, we used to go out with the main force and then deviate from the main course and perhaps we’d send out some [unclear] the window, the bomb aimers job, that was to put the window out and then change route again back onto the route and then veer off again and do the same again and that confused the German radar of course.
CB: Hmm.
PW: That was all it was really and we had extra petrol tanks in the Halifax and of course in the Wellington’s so that , and they carried a small bomb to give the bomb aimer something to do, [laughs] it was only a small bomb because they had the extra petrol tanks of course, I can remember one time the bomb aimer’s job was to change the petrol cox and all of a sudden I can remember Ben saying ”did you change the tanks over cox“ and he went flying past me [laughs] to get to the cox to turn the thing on to a different the tank.
CB: What made him say that? The pilot.
PW: Oh I don’t know, just to make sure he had I think [laughs].
CB: Oh right the engines didn’t stop?
PW: The engine didn’t stop no [laughs].
CB: Now what about the special operator, did he link in with the crew or was he very stand offish?
PW: No, no he was the normal one who came with us but he never had anything to do with the crew at all.
CB: What did he do as a job?
PW: Oh as I say the equipment they had, I mean I’ve never seen anything. [unclear] were unknown at one time of course, what was the other name, navigating.
CB: So there was also H2S was there?
PW: H2S that’s right.
CB: Who operated the H2S?
PW: That the special operator who operated that.
CB: He did, did he? Okay.
PW: Yes, yes I didn’t have anything to do with that at all.
CB: So this is the eighth man on the aircraft is it?
PW: Hmm.
CB: You still had the mid-upper gunner did you?
PW: No.
CB: So you only had seven of you in the crew?
PW: If they wanted anybody as mid-upper gunner that was me [laughs] that was the idea being a WOP AG.
CB: Yeah.
PW: But I never did go up into the [unclear] at all.
CB: Right.
PW: I mean we didn’t see that much traffic and the rear gunner was, I know we had a corkscrew a couple of times, that frightens the life out of you that does, but Ben did it marvellously well.
CB: So just describe the corkscrew could you, what started the corkscrew?
PW: In the aircraft approaching.
CB: And who called that?
PW: That I don’t l know because.
CB: But normally?
PW: Normally it would be the navigator I would think, or the bomb aimer.
CB: I’d suggest that it might have been the rear gunner.
PW: [laughs] it might have been the rear gunner, yeah.
CB: Well if the attack was from the front.
PW: Yeah.
CB: Then the bomb aimer would see it wouldn’t he?
PW: Yes, yes.
PW: But the navigator can’t see anything because he’s shrouded up on his table at the side of me.
CB: So what happened with the corkscrew then, you said it was a bit disconcerting so?
PW: It is yeah, yeah, because you’re not strapped in you see.
CB: Right, right.
PW: I mean they are.
CB: But you’re not.
PW: The ones [unclear] are strapped in and the navigator’s strapped in but you’re not strapped in, it’s all of a sudden [makes plane like sound], yeah so it’s a frightening thing, I remember we were doing it once and you were sort of in a, you almost feel like you’re going to lift up.
CB: So can you describe how the aircraft reacts in a corkscrew, what happens, somebody calls to the captain what does he say?
PW: I wouldn’t know.
CB: Corkscrew, corkscrew left or corkscrew right does he? So then what, what does the pilot then do with the aircraft?
PW: Well just doing a quick back left or right.
CB: So he goes down to the left doesn’t he or down to the right and then.
PW: Yeah, roll, not rollover no wouldn’t be a rollover [laughs].
CB: No, no but roll out of it.
PW: Goes straight and then try and get back on whatever the course.
CB: And then back up to what the course was.
PW: Yeah, yeah.
CB: So the purpose of a corkscrew was to do what?
PW: Just to evade the fighter that was all.
CB: So did you get hit at all in the aircraft?
PW: Never.
CB: Flak or fighter?
PW: Seen plenty of flak.
CB: So what’s it like when you see a lot of flak?
PW: I can’t say I was ever really frightened but I didn’t like the look of it. Ben came and said to me 0nce “come and have a look at this” and of course it was, well you could touch the sky, I just went I’ll go back, I didn’t particularly want to look at it. [laughs] I can’t say I was frightened though, no, no.
CB: Okay, so what is the view of flak, the sky is full of flak but what are you looking at what is it?
PW: The sky’s full of full of white [unclear] it’s terrific really. You think to yourself how the hell are we going to get through that lot. But of course we used to have to leave the mainstream, left or right, leave the mainstream that’s why we had extra petrol tanks. We’d go with the mainstream perhaps as far as the bomb aimer said he released his little bomb we had, and then come back or go right the way round and make our way home you see.
CB: But on the way out are you going, are you saying that on the way out, you’re going in and out of the stream are you?
PW: Yes, hmm more or less.
CB: And that’s because.
PW: Well we’d go out from the stream and drop the.
CB: Window.
PW: Window, yeah. And of course in the meantime hoping that the the special operator found a frequency that the German’s were working on. Because they used to search for the, they’d got some idea which frequencies they were using and then we had equipment for jamming.
CB: Right.
PW: And as soon as he found that he put our equipment on to jam the German RT.
CB: And how did they jam, the German, the special operators?
PW: I. I’ve no idea really. It must have been sending a blast of something like that, I really didn’t know how they did it.
CB: Okay, so H2S was a bulge underneath the fuselage?
PW: Yeah, yeah.
CB: What identification was there that you were special operations with aerials on the top of the aircraft?
PW: Well I don’t know, I think that gave you, that gave the H2S a picture of the terrain.
CB: Yes, but what indication was there on the aircraft that there were special bits of equipment for the special operations man, was there an aerial on the roof or the side or where was it.
PW: There was one underneath, there was a couple on the top and of course there was the DF one on the top, the only one I needed and the only one I operated because I didn’t know what they were doing.
CB: No, no.
PW: Because it was considered secret.
CB: God.
PW: But see if you crash landed or landed and the aircraft was [unclear] the skipper would operate something and destroy the aircraft itself. Once we were all out hopefully [laughs].
CB: Hmm, so the special operator had explosives in his area to destroy the equipment in the event of something going wrong.
PW: Yeah, yeah that’s right.
CB: And to what extent do you think the German’s could identify that you were a special operations aircraft?
PW: [unclear] I have no idea, I don’t know how they could know really I apart from they might be able to feedback from the special aerials maybe, I don’t know.
CB: And later aircraft had a tail warning system for German night fighters to detect the transmissions of German night fighters, what did you have on your aircraft?
PW: Nothing that I know of.
CB: So you couldn’t detect that you were being, that there was somebody creeping up on you?
PW: [unclear the rear gunner.
CB: Like one eyeball.
PW: That’s right, yeah. Hmm.
CB: Okay, good.
PW: We did have to corkscrew one time because the rear gunner saw something and thought it was coming for us.
CB: Hmm, and he missed you?
PW: Hmm, and of course the bomb aimers business this tinsel out, wow that was just like a shoot.
CB: Oh was it, in the Bombay was it?
PW: No, it wasn’t in the Bombay, I know it was quite near the mid-upper turret.
CB: Right, in the floor?
PW: Hmm in the floor, yeah.
CB: How would you describe the performance and comfort of the Halifax?
PW: Well my position was A okay and of course Halifax, yeah, I was underneath the pilot
CB: You were?
PW: Yes.
CB: Right. Did you have any windows?
PW: There was a small one but you had it blacked out anyway.
CB: How high could you fly in the Halifax?
PW: I didn’t think we went much over 10,000.
CB: Oh, was that the, the bomber stream was running higher than that though wasn’t it?
PW: Yeah, but you’d have to have your oxygen on.
CB: Hmm.
PW: If you were over 10,000 anyway and I don’t remember having the oxygen mask on for considerable periods.
CB: Was that partly because you needed to be lower in order for the special operations man to be able to deal with the German night fighters and radar?
PW: Perhaps so, as I say what they did mid- aircraft I didn’t.
CB: No.
PW: We had the Cato air tube there, what do they call it?
CB: The screen for the H2S you mean?
PW: H2S, hmm.
CB: Who operated that?
PW: The special operator.
CB: Oh he did, right okay.
PW: Yes, yes, he was usually an officer or two tour man.
CB: Oh was he, and what sort of languages did he speak?
PW: [pause] I don’t know whether he spoke manually or we used to record send out messages in German from the aircraft.
CB: Hmm.
PW: Once they found a frequency that the fighters were working on, how the hell they did that I don’t know, they must have known what sort of range they were working on.
CB: Yes, well in the 101 squadron for instance, Lancaster’s then the special operators were all German speakers you see so that’s why I’m asking what the languages your special operator spoke.
PW: I wouldn’t know.
CB: I think it reinforces the point doesn’t it that the rest of the crew didn’t know anything about him.
PW: Well perhaps so yeah.
CB: But when, gradually the crew became commissioned is that right?
PW: Hmm.
CB: So where did the special operator live, stay where was he billeted, he was always an officer was he?
PW: Yes, I just presume he was somewhere, either in the officer’s mess or in the, if you were in a station like Foulsham then we had all sorts of, set out in huts, there was no sort of big building.
CB: What was your accommodation at Foulsham?
PW: just a hut.
CB: Nissan hut?
PW: Yes, type of Nissan hut yeah.
CB: With whom?
PW: With a big coke stove in the centre [laughs].
CB: In the middle yeah?
PW: But there was one, we got a little room on our own, the rear gunner and myself and so we were quite cosy there.
CB: I’m just going to stop this a moment. We’re talking about the accommodation you had, so how many other crew members were in the same accommodation as you?
PW: Well there was just the rear gunner and myself.
CB: Right.
PW: The others being commissioned.
CB: So what social life did you have as a crew?
PW: Oh well we always used to get, the whole crew used to go to Norwich, they used to have a truck take us all to Norwich and we all mixed in together. The place we used to go to in Norwich Samson and Hercules, that was a , well the only trouble was the Americans used to go in there as well. And that’s the time that.
IW: Yes.
PW: I could never understand.
CB: What?
PW: What it was all about.
CB: Why, how do you mean?
PW: Well when the Americans and the Samson and Hercules came in they had separate colours of squadrons and whatever.
CB: They segregated their people by colour?
PW: Yeah, yeah, when they got, they used to create hell, and of course the white caps, so in the end we decided we wouldn’t go in the Samson [laughs].
CB: You mean that they would take out the blacks so that they weren’t in with the white air crew is that what you mean?
PW: Well they sought them out, they would come into the dancefloor and then all of a sudden a coloured one would be with one of the white yank’s fancies and then they would start. We used to say, I don’t know [laughs] I don’t know who we’re supposed to be fighting for, [laughs] the whole place [unclear] and it was strange absolutely and of course the white caps used to lie about them with their truncheons like.
CB: These are the military police?
PW: Yeah, yeah and they didn’t spare any blushes.
CB: No, no. So where they American black ground crew or where there any American black air crew?
PW: Well no they had American, there was an American all black squadron.
CB: There was. Where was that based?
PW: I’ve no idea where it was based.
CB: No.
PW: It was in East Anglia.
CB: What were they flying, fighters?
PW: No Fortresses.
CB: Oh they were, right. Now in the RAF how often did you come across people from the West Indies or Africa or whatever, India?
PW: No we didn’t, we had one officer in the squad who was a West Indian, and I didn’t get to know him at all but he was a very nice fella, but as I say we didn’t have much to do with him really.
CB: What did he do, was he a pilot, navigator or what was he?
PW: He was pilot rank if I remember rightly.
CB: What rank?
PW: maybe a Flight Lieutenant [pause].
CB: On your squadron?
PW: Well I don’t know if he was on our squadron because we had a, we shared a place with 462 Squadron who were Australian. Yes it was 462 Squadron who shared a base with us.
CB: Oh right.
PW: So he might have been with them.
CB: So there was what one did you ever know or come across any other colonial, West Indian or African?
PW: No, not while on squadron, no.
CB: No, okay, Right. Now when you came to the end of the war, you’d already done your tour?
PW: Yes.
CB: How was it that you then did a second tour? Because people tended at the end of a tour to then go on ground jobs. So how did you change to a second tour?
PW: I didn’t go on to a second tour.
CB: Ah.
PW: No.
CB: So you did your thirty?
PW: Yes, that’s right.
CB: So which squadron were you with when you did that?
PW: That was with, with 192.
CB: Right. But then you went to 102 and then 53.
PW: 102 became 53
CB: Okay, and was the war still on when you changed to that?
PW: No, no.
CB: So it just happened that the end of your tour was also at the end of the war was it?
PW: Yes in fact we were on the last bomber command raid of the war to Flensburg.
CB: Yes which is what you said earlier to Flensburg.
PW: That’s right that was on the 2nd of May 1945.
CB: And did you do any ferrying of POWS’ after that in operation exodus?
PW: No, no we did, what ferrying we did then was taking Halifax’s up to the graveyard [laughs] up to Scotland and then come back with one of the others.
CB: They flew you back in some other plane?
PW: Yeah in one, one plane.
CB: Yeah. So the war ended in 1946 and you were de-mobbed, does it say there when you were de-mobbed?
PW: 1945 [pause]
CB: In 1946?
PW: In 1945 I was transferred to 102 Squadron Pocklington and that became 53 Squadron.
CB: Right.
PW: And that was , what was it Bassetlorn.
CB: Upward? You were at Upward as well?
PW: I was at Upward [pause]
CB: So you never did fly Lancasters?
PW: No. Never flew one.
CB: So you came to the end of the war then what did you do, you left the RAF when you were de-mobbed.
PW: Yeah.
CB: How did they kit you out?
PW: Oh well I went, they sent me up to , oh where was it, Yorkshire, I was doing on a sort of radar station, but that was only for a little while of course it wouldn’t be in my log book.
CB: Hmm, it’s in our pay book. Yeah. So then you went back to civilian life doing what?
PW: Well as an adult apprentice, I carried on in my apprenticeship and the Government paid Camphill Press the money to make my wages up to a German’s rate.
CB: Right.
PW: Although I was an adult apprentice.
CB: Right.
PW: I was supposed to do three years like that.
CB: But you did less did you?
PW: No I carried on doing that and and then of course we, to make up for the fact that I missed a few years apprenticeship, of course an apprenticeship was seven years in those days [laughs].
CB: Oh right.
PW: And so they used to pay the Salvation Army publishing supplies and the money to make up my, to a German’s rate. So I was still in an adult apprenticeship and I went up to London printing for quite a while.
CB: On day release was it?
PW: Yep. [pause]
CB: Where was that Camden Town?
PW: No, [pause].
CB: Regent Street Poly?
PW: [pause] No, no it’s, a London School of printing and bookbinders, Stamford street that was.
CB: Right, Okay.
PW: Before they moved of course, and then of course I then got a job with somebody I used to work with had started up on his own and I went to work for him.
CB: What was that called?
PW: Book binding.
CB: No, no the company.
PW: The company, what was it called?
IW: It was Mr Hicks.
PW: Hmm, yeah Mr Hicks, I forget what the book binding was called. Universal Booking Binding he called himself.
CB: And you stayed there how long?
PW: Oh, about a year if that.
CB: Then what?
PW: Then I was with a chap who I was an apprentice with, the name of Clark, he was an older chap and he was working for this fella so he got a deputy and there was three of us and he was a composter and we started our own book binding company.
CB: And what was that called?
PW: For what part of a better name, Reliance Book Binding Company [laughs]. And, well as I said I’m not going to work for somebody else, I’ll work for myself, and I did.
CB: With two others.
PW: With the help of two others, yes, partners. But of course that didn’t last, the partnership didn’t last in the end.
CB: How long did it run for?
PW: Because one of the chaps thought he’s now a boss he could please himself when he comes and goes [laughs].
CB: One of those.
PW: [laughs]. So that didn’t work very well did it , so I decided we’d end that so we ended that partnership so there was just Mr Clark and myself.
IW: [unclear]
PW: And we carried on as the Reliance Book Binding Company until I retired.
CB: Which was when?
PW: When did I retire?
IW: I don’t know because you still used to.
CB: What age?
PW: I wasn’t sixty even was I, fifty-five.
IW: Oh no, never fifty-five.
PW: It was when I retired from, when did I retire from working for myself then?
IW: I don’t know, but you certainly didn’t retire at fifty-five.
CB: Anyway you retired, after you retired did you then do another job or?
PW: No, no.
CB: Your pension was enough to keep going, or did you sell out or did you sell your part of the company?
PW: I did, Ron and myself sold the company to the chaps we worked with over a period of three year and.
IW: The chaps that worked for you, you didn’t just work with them they worked for you.
PW: That’s right yeah.
CB: Okay, and then you put your feet up?
PW: No, not really.
CB: What did you do, I started.
PW: What did I do after that?
IW: [unclear]
CB: I’ll just stop recording for a bit.
CB: We’re just picking up what happened after the war, so after the war you went back to civilian life but actually you returned to the RAF in the volunteer reserves so when did you do that and what did you do?
PW: Well it should be in there.
CB: So it’s 1951 to 1953. What were you doing?
PW: [pause]
CB: Because you said it was the reserve flying school, but what were you actually doing for them?
PW: Wireless operator on Anderson’s and I finished that in 1954.
CB: So what was the purpose of the?
IW: What was the purpose Peter?
CB: What was the purpose of this organisation the reserve flying school who were you teaching?
PW: Just to keep, keep your hand in really.
CB: Right.
PW: We used to have weekend flying and then an annual week at Cambridge.
CB: Right.
PW: And then I finished that and that’s when I finished the RAF altogether wasn’t it.
CB: Right. Ok.
PW: Hmm, so I was then just a sergeant.
CB: Oh they took you down to sergeant from warrant officer?
PW: So yeah, when I was back in reserve, that’s right wasn’t it, just had the three stripes again.
CB: Okay, thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AWoodardP160512
Title
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Interview with Peter Woodard
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:09:35 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary. Allocated S Coulter
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-12
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Flensburg
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Hannover
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Woodard was a wireless operator and after training at RAF Yatesbury he flew operations with 192 Squadron.
Contributor
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Carron Moss
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
100 Group
102 Squadron
192 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
B-24
bombing
Cook’s tour
crewing up
H2S
Halifax
Mosquito
Operational Training Unit
P-38
RAF Dumfries
RAF Foulsham
Raf Mauripur
RAF Pocklington
RAF Shenington
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/183/3632/PWoodC1601.1.jpg
e6b2e00e8424a1959078b6e0bbf67556
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/183/3632/AWoodC160325.2.mp3
46024566658ed36fd321770c6bf3a020
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wood, Colin
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Colin Wood (1922 - 2021, 1451225 Royal Air Force), his log book, service record and seven photographs including pictures of some of his crew. Colin Wood trained in Canada and flew operations as a navigator with 106 Squadron from RAF Metheringham. His crew were:
428289 - Andy A Anderson, pilot
1593692 - D Evans, flight engineer
1451225 - Colin Wood, navigator
1564707 - G H McElhone, bomb aimer
1873924 - P Thomas Tobin, wireless operator
1584474 - Vernon R Grogan, mid upper gunner
1595586 - R O Day, rear gunner.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Colin Wood and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Wood, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: Right. This is Gary Rushbrooke for the International Bomber Command Centre. I’m with Warrant Officer Colin Wood, a navigator on 106 and 83 Squadrons and we’re at his home in Sheffield on Friday the 25th of March. Colin, I know we’re in Sheffield. Are you from Sheffield originally?
CW: Oh yes.
GR: Yeah. Born, born locally.
CW: Born and bred.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Brothers. Sisters.
CW: Yeah. Brother. He was in the air force. He was down as a pilot, to train as a pilot and then they were short of coppersmiths and they commandeered him to be a coppersmith. So, but he finished up on training as a pilot in South Africa. So he got something. By the time he’d done he’d more or less run out of time.
GR: Right. Yeah.
CW: Too late.
GR: Any other brothers or sisters or just that?
CW: No.
GR: And what did, what did your mum and dad do? Were they —
CW: They were, they worked in the steelworks. Well, not my mother [laughs]
GR: No. Yeah.
CW: And, yeah.
GR: So, yeah. So you went to school in Sheffield.
CW: Yes.
GR: And I think you were telling me earlier on before we switched the recorder on that when you decided to join the RAF or volunteered was it, was there five? Five members of your class.
CW: Yes. Yes. The local school. Sharrow Lane School. And we had the top boy in Sheffield. I should mention that.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And he became a pilot and unfortunately he was the only who was [pause] didn’t manage it.
GR: He didn’t get back. Did you decide, did you know all the, did you know each other?
CW: Oh yeah. Yeah.
GR: And had you all got together and said —
CW: No. No. Everybody was diff, everybody by themselves decided. Well, you was either the army or navy and I didn’t fancy. I used to play as a kid at being a wounded soldier. After the First World War.
GR: Right.
CW: And so I thought I don’t fancy that very much. I think if, if I happen to be lucky and a natural pilot I could take, I could take my turn as a natural pilot.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So I thought I’ll have a go at that. And that more or less decided that.
GR: Right. So what year would this be?
CW: Eh?
GR: When your class.
CW: When I, when I went to volunteer in the local Sheffield reception area it would be ’41.
GR: 19 yeah and —
CW: And then I went somewhere down south and met up again with some officers who quizzed me and all that. Then they gave me two shilling. Which was the king’s two shilling which in the First World War was one shilling.
GR: Was the king’s shilling. Yeah.
CW: And we got a rise to two shilling and, and then I was sent home then and I was [pause] they said they’d nowhere to train us. So that was it. I just had to wait ‘til, ‘til there was room to train us.
GR: Yeah. How long did you spend at home?
CW: I was, well probably six months while they found somewhere to train us.
GR: And what, what would you have been doing? Did you go back to school or —
CW: No. I went back to work.
GR: You went back, oh right. So we’ll backtrack. So when you said there’s five members of your class.
CW: Oh yes.
GR: They’d all left the class.
CW: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: It was just that we were all together and as it happened we all joined up separately.
GR: Yeah. So what work was you doing?
CW: Plumbing.
GR: Plumbing.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Oh so you weren’t in Sheffield’s steel industry like your dad.
CW: No. No.
GR: No.
CW: I didn’t fancy being inside like that. No.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Sooner be outside somewhere.
GR: Because what age would you have left school?
CW: Fourteen.
GR: Fourteen. And then gone into a plumbing apprenticeship or —
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Exactly.
GR: And then as war broke out would you have been eighteen to volunteer or — ?
CW: The call up age when I was eighteen was nineteen. So at nineteen I would have been called up anyway.
GR: Yes.
CW: So I was eighteen and I knew I could take my pick and and choice. So that’s why I volunteered. Well, other things. But I decided to. To join up. Yeah.
GR: So at eighteen you could volunteer.
CW: Yes.
GR: And if you’d have said, and if this is just something just to clarify actually for a lot of people. So at eighteen obviously the Royal Air Force and I think the Submarine Service were voluntary.
CW: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: So, at the age of eighteen you could have volunteered for any of them two. Plus —
CW: Yeah.
GR: The army.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So if you wanted to go into the army at eighteen you could have said, ‘I want to go,’ and if you hadn’t have volunteered at the age of eighteen when you got to nineteen, on your nineteenth birthday you would have been called up. Is that right?
CW: No. Because the air force at the time said you belong to us.
GR: Yeah.
CW: You can’t go in the Merchant Navy.
GR: No. What I mean is if you hadn’t have volunteered.
CW: Yeah.
GR: For the RAF.
CW: Oh, I’d have been —
GR: So if you’d have done nothing.
CW: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: At the age of nineteen.
CW: I’d have been called up.
GR: Conscription.
CW: Yeah.
GR: In World War Two.
CW: Yeah.
GR: And you would have been said, right.
CW: Yeah.
GR: You’re off to the army. You’re off to the navy. Or whatever.
CW: Exactly. Yeah.
GR: I’ve got it. Yeah. So, volunteered for the Royal Air Force.
CW: Yeah.
GR: But then you waited six months. Went back and did some work.
CW: Yeah.
GR: And then what happened? What was, what —?
CW: Well –
GR: When you were finally called up for training.
CW: Yes. I was sent to, with a railway warrant to Lord’s Cricket Ground where I think the others, everybody went there.
GR: That’s right.
CW: To London.
GR: Yes. Yeah.
CW: Yeah. And lived in a big posh house there.
GR: Very nice. Wouldn’t do that these days would we down there?
CW: No.
GR: And I think, was it like two weeks of square bashing and something or —
CW: We were there about a month.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And then I went to south coast. ITW.
GR: Yeah.
CW: I remember it now.
GR: Yeah. Training centre. And did you know at the time where you was going to be doing your training?
CW: No. No. No. I didn’t know what I was going to be. There were like four or five trades.
GR: Yeah.
CW: That, we were never in any way directed to one or the other. We all did the same training at ITW.
GR: Right. Yeah. Initial. Yeah. Initial training.
CW: Yeah.
GR: What, what did you want to be? Had you got — pilot?
CW: Yes.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So after ITW did they then come to you and say —
CW: No. They estimated what kind of — I did fly a plane after I’d done ITW. I went to learn to fly a plane.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Which was a Tiger Moth. Which was the only way to travel really. It’s wonderful.
GR: I bet.
CW: And loop the loop and falling leaf and all that. It was lovely. And, you know at that age.
GR: Yeah.
CW: To just do that. And anyway after, they assessed us I suppose at that time. What I was like handling a plane and taking off and landing.
GR: Yeah.
CW: I suppose they put a mark down to what I was doing. How I was doing. And then I went back just [pause] I forget, I went to a holding unit in Manchester. A park there. Heaton Park.
GR: Heaton Park. Yeah.
CW: And I stayed there. Then I was sent to another place near Birmingham and playing at football and somebody broke my leg [laughs] So that put me in hospital for a while. And then, but then I got three weeks sick leave which was the usual and then, and then I still had to hang about until, until I was sent off to Canada. I went back to Heaton Park and from Heaton Park, Liverpool.
GR: Yeah.
CW: In the world’s worst boat. French ship called the Louis Pasteur, which pitched and tossed and never went flat.
GR: Oh dear.
CW: And everybody on board, including the captain I think, was sick.
GR: How did you feel about the fact that you would be doing your training in Canada?
CW: Well. We didn’t get to Canada because they’d got some, not a disease but some ailment in the camp we should have gone to so that, so the Americans in three or four days we got time arranged for us to go to one of their camps in Massachusetts. So we landed at New York and then disembarked from the Louis Pasteur, went across the river in a, in a ferry for some reason to get ready to go to north of, in America.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And somebody started singing there, “On Ilkley Moor bar t’at,” and everybody joined in. They were Welsh and Irish.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And everything. So I don’t know what Americans thought when they heard all the Yorkshire language being spoke. So then we went to near Massachusetts. Camp Myles Standish, who was a famous, was he an Indian fighter or something?
GR: Don’t know.
CW: Yeah.
GR: I don’t know.
CW: Yeah. And they called this camp after him.
GR: After him. Yeah.
CW: And so we spent three or four weeks there. And then we moved then onto the place we should have gone to in Canada. I can’t, I can’t remember where it was now.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And then I went out to Rivers. Canadian Number 1 Navigation School. Just about a hundred mile west of Winnipeg.
GR: Yeah. I’m just looking in Colin’s logbook and it’s number, yeah Number 1 Canadian Navigation School, Rivers, Manitoba. And I think your first flight there was on July the 8th 1943.
CW: Was it?
GR: Yeah. Duty — first navigator. Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So obviously you settled in Canada and from what I’ve spoke to other gentleman obviously training in Canada with no food shortages and —
CW: Exactly. Yeah.
GR: Was good.
CW: Yes. Good.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: How long did training last?
CW: Five months.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So —
GR: As, as, yeah navigation.
CW: I must say the last day was the best of all because some wise guy said while we’re going to be here five months. Every month payday, every payday we should all put money in a kitty and have a big booze up when it, when it’s all over and have a big meal.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Which we did.
GR: Well, I presume there was no shortages.
CW: No.
GR: No. No.
CW: No.
GR: So freshly qualified as a navigator when did you actually return to the UK?
CW: I’ll tell you when. It was, the middle day was the 28th of November across the, seven days across the Atlantic because it was my twenty first birthday [laughs]
GR: I see.
CW: And I was in this hammock.
GR: So you spent, spent your twenty first birthday.
CW: Yeah. In —
GR: On the North Atlantic
CW: Exactly. In the middle of the Atlantic. Hoping there were no submarines about.
GR: What ship were you on? Do you remember the ship coming back?
CW: Yeah. The Mauritania.
GR: Oh. The Mauritania.
CW: Yeah. Beautiful.
GR: Famous ship. Yes. Yeah.
CW: Yeah. Nobody sick there.
GR: No.
CW: Beautiful. Yeah.
GR: Because I think at one time that held a record for crossing the Atlantic. It was quite a fast ship wasn’t it?
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Big ship.
CW: Yes.
GR: Yeah. So I was going to say. So back to England and I’m just looking in your logbook and around February 1944 you were in Scotland.
CW: Yes.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah. Near Stranraer.
GR: Yeah.
CW: I forget what —
GR: Yeah.
CW: I don’t know what you called it now.
GR: Can’t pronounce it to be honest. West Freugh.
CW: West Freugh. Freugh.
GR: West Freugh.
CW: West Freugh.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So this was for further training.
CW: Yes.
GR: Yeah.
CW: We were flying still on [pause] bloody hell I’ve forgotten was what plane it was.
GR: Ansons.
CW: Ansons. That’s right. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: You hadn’t crewed up by then had you?
CW: No.
GR: This was all.
CW: No. No.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: No. No.
GR: Just further training. And progressing into April you were then at 29 OTU.
CW: Yeah. I’m not sure where that was. Oh. Bitteswell.
GR: Bitteswell.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: And there were about four. Four different places. Why they didn’t do it there. We kept moving on to other places.
GR: Yes.
CW: But there we are.
GR: And with a regular crew by then or —
CW: No.
GR: No. You were still —
CW: No. No. We, we’d never seen anybody who wasn’t training as a navigator at that time.
GR: Right.
CW: And then eventually we were taken in to a big hangar. Which happened to everybody. And they said they were, I don’t remember the number now but same number of pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, rear gunners, wireless ops.
GR: And just told you to get on with it.
CW: And they said, ‘When you come out you’ll all be in a crew.’
GR: Tell me a bit about that then.
CW: Well, I don’t know. I finished up with an Australian pilot. A super, super guy.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Well they all were actually.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Aussies. I liked them.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And yes. And we picked up as I say a wireless op.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And rear gunner.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And bomb aimer.
GR: Bomb aimer. Mid-upper.
CW: He was a Scot.
GR: Yeah. Can you remember all the nationalities then? How many Australians were there? Just the pilot or —
CW: Just the pilot. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah. Yes. He was a super bloke really.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: And that was, was that Flying Officer Anderson?
CW: Well, he was sergeant. A flight sergeant then.
GR: Flight sergeant then.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yes. So crewed up.
CW: Yeah.
GR: What happened next?
CW: And then we went training. Still training.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Still training. Can’t remember where we went to really.
GR: Would it have been Heavy Conversion Unit?
CW: Yeah.
GR: To convert on to the four-engine bombers. Syerston.
CW: No. I think we went somewhere before that.
GR: Yeah.
CW: That was to go on to Stirlings.
GR: Winthorpe.
CW: Winthorpe was still training on —
GR: Yeah.
CW: Ansons I think.
GR: Yeah. Just checking the logbook.
CW: Oh Halifax.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Halifaxes.
GR: Stirlings.
CW: Oh. Was it?
GR: Yeah.
CW: But first was Halifaxes.
GR: Right.
CW: Which were still twin-engine for the pilot so he didn’t need the other two crew members.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: The flight engineer. He didn’t really need him because he was quite used to two engines anyway.
GR: Yeah.
CW: But when he stepped up to the next.
GR: That.
CW: Four engine.
GR: Yeah.
CW: He needed help to look after feeding in of petrol.
GR: And obviously that’s what Winthorpe would have been.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Because you were on Stirlings by then.
CW: Yes. That’s right. Yeah.
GR: And Flight Sergeant Anderson was a pilot officer by then.
CW: Yes. Yeah. He stepped up. Yeah. Deserved it. Yeah.
GR: And then obviously after, yeah Heavy Conversion Unit, you did I think it’s about a week at 5 LFS at Syerston.
CW: Oh.
GR: Just a week there. On Lancasters.
CW: Oh yeah.
GR: At Number 5 Lancaster Finishing School.
CW: That’s right.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: When did you find out which operational base you would go to? How did that come about?
CW: They just said, ‘You’re going to 106 at Metheringham.’
GR: Yeah. So —
CW: And we went and there were two other crews landed at about the same day I think.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And we were all put in the same Nissen hut.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And we wondered, I wondered how we were all going to go on. If we were going to be as lucky as them or what. And then both, all three pilots made a flight with an experienced crew.
GR: Yes.
CW: And one of them, one of the other two pilots did not come back. So then we expected a new pilot to arrive to take over this old crew but they didn’t. They just took them and the disappeared. Took them off the station altogether.
GR: Right.
CW: Which, it was a bit surprising but I suppose that’s how they did it.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And then we thought well who’d be first because our pilot was Albert Andrew Anderson and duly first on anything but he wasn’t.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And this other crew went and they never came back.
GR: So they went on the first operation.
CW: Yes.
GR: And didn’t come back.
CW: Yeah. The pilot came back from his original flight.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And he took his own crew and then we never heard again.
GR: So, of the three crews that landed.
CW: Yeah before a month was out we were —
GR: Just you.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Just you. Ok. And I am looking at your logbook again. You, you did your first training flight at Metheringham on the 12th of September and within two weeks you were flying on your first operation.
CW: Well, I’ve not really looked into that.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. I’m just looking at the logbook again.
CW: Oh. Ok.
GR: 12th of September.
CW: Yeah.
GR: You’d arrived at Metheringham. Well, less than two weeks. The 23rd of September.
CW: Yeah.
GR: You were off to the Dortmund Ems Canal.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So what was the first operation like if you don’t mind me asking? You know, you’d done your training.
CW: Yes. Well we knew what we were in for because we’d experienced what had happened to others.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So we just hoped and prayed. Yeah.
GR: Because as a navigator did you go to a pre-op meeting?
CW: No.
GR: You didn’t have to plan the route out or anything like that?
CW: No.
GR: No.
CW: No.
GR: Right.
CW: No. I think everyone was, it’s wherever in Bomber Command I think the same happened. A briefing.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And a big screen across the, a big atlas or a map.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Or a chart probably. And a red line zigzagging across. Zigzagged because they didn’t want Germans to dead reckon ahead on our first track and say oh they must be going in that direction.
GR: Sounds like it. Yeah.
CW: So we dodged.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Dodged different. It made a bit more hard work.
GR: Yeah.
CW: But not much.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And so that’s how we set off on each flight.
GR: Yeah. And what was the first one like? You said, yeah you just prayed and hoped.
CW: Well.
GR: And did it go off alright at the Dortmund Ems because obviously the Dortmund ems canal over the years was a well-known target.
CW: Well I went five times in all. So, yeah but but I don’t think we ever did any damage to be honest. It was such a massive.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Thing. And I think 617 Squadron eventually dropped one of theirs.
GR: Big Tallboy.
CW: Yes
GR: Grand Slam
CW: Yeah.
GR: Bombs.
CW: Down. Just where it wanted to be. Right alongside it.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Which uprooted everything. Which was a big route for everything made in the Ruhr to get to the north coast.
GR: Yeah.
CW: To go on this canal.
GR: On the canal. Yeah.
CW: So if we could knock it out then they would be sending things by road.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And rail. Which took longer and cost more.
GR: I think Bomber Command first started bombing the Dortmund Ems Canal in 1940.
CW: Yeah. Well, there wasn’t, that meant they weren’t able to damage.
GR: No.
CW: That concrete was such that, you know, one bomb.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Just wouldn’t matter.
GR: And then you’d done within four days you’d done two more ops to Karlsruhe and Kaiserslautern.
CW: Yeah.
GR: And then —
CW: Yeah.
GR: Running into October 1944 I notice you went to the submarine pens at Bergen.
CW: Yeah. In Norway. Yes.
GR: Yeah.
CW: To try and help the navy really.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Damage the submarines if possible.
GR: Yeah. And I think again that was another one that 617 with their big bombs —
CW: Yeah.
GR: Went to —
CW: Were able to do.
GR: After you. Yeah. So how did the operations go? Oh yeah. I’m just looking again. Dortmund Ems. Dortmund Ems.
CW: Yeah. Well, actually apart from being there it was quite a good one for, for us because it was a short one.
GR: Yeah.
CW: It was just, only just the other side of Holland.
GR: Yes.
CW: And so you weren’t shattered or anything.
GR: Yeah.
CW: By a long distance or anything.
GR: Yeah. Yes. Because I’m looking again in the logbook and the Dortmund Ems Canal Roundtrip was four hours fifteen minutes.
CW: Yeah. That’s pretty good.
GR: Unlike on the 22nd of November you went to Trondheim and you were in the air eleven hours twenty five minutes.
CW: Yeah. Trondheim. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. So —
CW: Well that’s, on saying that well I think that I told you that the Met men got the wind velocity wrong. Totally wrong. It turned out to be, on my first check after ten minutes when you take a radar fix you could work out a wind velocity which to me, it was to me a hundred mile an hour and I think they had forecast twenty or twenty five or something like that. And we were a bit, a little bit worried and we then realised our wireless operator got a message saying the time to be there had been brought forward because they’d heard, someone must have phoned, called them up. Breaking radio silence really which I’d never heard of and to tell them that we were going to be there maybe an hour too soon. With the wind velocity being so high and we were not accounting for it. We were thinking we were going to be in twenty mile an hour.
GR: And you were in —
CW: And we were in a hundred so, so they brought it forward so it didn’t make any difference of getting there.
GR: So in theory, I don’t know, the cruising speed of a Lancaster.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Normally two hundred miles an hour.
CW: I think somebody went wrong totally because the main bomb aimer eventually you couldn’t mark the target. The Germans set up smoke flares.
GR: Yes.
CW: And, and I think that when they tried to mark the target the wind was so much that these were carried away and they were never left long enough on the ground to be able to say come in and bomb.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So they said, ‘Sorry,’ but he said, ‘Sorry boys, just return to base. Return to base.’
GR: Right.
CW: So on the way back we, we were travelling at eighty mile an hour instead of our usual one eighty because of the head wind.
GR: Yeah. So you got, you got to the target quickly but it took a long time to get back home.
CW: Exactly. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. So —
CW: Yeah. But we went, we were then because I think petrol was going very low and we were detailed to go to Lossiemouth.
GR: Right. Diverted on the way back.
CW: Yes.
GR: Yeah. Yeah. I’m just checking again. Yeah. So moving on into early, early 1945 you were called up for Pathfinder duty.
CW: Yeah.
GR: How did that come about if you don’t mind asking?
CW: I think we got lucky.
GR: You got lucky. Taken off operations.
CW: No. I mean, no, I mean we got lucky by getting to the targets on time which was vital really.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So to start with the bomber when dropping bombs we got I think a three or four minute allowance but Pathfinders was one minute.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So you’d sort of got to work a bit harder to get there.
GR: Yeah.
CW: On time.
GR: So, I know they did a bit of extra training didn’t they?
CW: Yes.
GR: Which you had. Yeah.
CW: We went to [pause] I forget.
GR: Yeah. And it doesn’t make a note. Oh Coningsby. 83 Squadron, Pathfinder Force, Coningsby.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. So a couple of months and then you were back on operations and it looks as though you went to Leipzig on your first Pathfinder trip.
CW: Oh.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So did you find the two squadrons different or, I mean I presume you’ve still got the same crew.
CW: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: Same crew. Yeah.
GR: So just flying the same plane.
CW: Yeah.
GR: But from a different base.
CW: Yeah. Just —
GR: Yeah.
CW: Different base. Well, we linked with 97 Squadron. So we were like one squadron really I think.
GR: Yeah.
CW: We both went into the briefing. Both squadrons. And however many, however many planes that were sent.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So we were like one big squadron but but no we weren’t.
GR: Yeah.
CW: We were two separate squadrons but we worked as one.
GR: As a — yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Any extra pressure being the Pathfinder navigator?
CW: No. I just did —
GR: Because the Pathfinders, I presume the Pathfinders went in first to mark.
CW: Yeah.
GR: The target.
CW: No.
GR: Then bomb.
CW: We dropped flares —
GR: Yeah.
CW: That hung in the sky whilst Mosquitoes guys who didn’t have as much radar didn’t, I don’t think they had any radar so they weren’t sure to get there because they didn’t have room for radar I think. And so if they saw our flares going down they could be, they could easily get within like ten mile of the target. So they’d soon see the flares and they could be on the job straight away and marking out for the main force coming probably nine minutes later.
GR: Yeah. That’s good. And then that’s going towards the end of the war. Where were you? Where were you when the war finished?
CW: Still at Coningsby.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: And I think you’d flown your last operation on the, or your last bombing operation on the 18th of April.
CW: Was it?
GR: Yeah.
CW: Oh.
GR: Yeah. So and then in May you did a couple of prisoner of war pickups. Operation Exodus.
CW: Yes. Yeah. We were glad to be able to do that.
GR: Yeah. A lot of crews have said that.
CW: It was the first time they said you can’t take your parachutes with you. Not that we were bothered about that.
GR: Yeah.
CW: But no parachutes for them. Prisoners of war just released. Probably I think there were sixteen came in and sat just down the fuselage. Anywhere they could really.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: And then the pilot would ask them up and we were like over the sea, or the North Sea or whatever and just had a look.
GR: Yeah.
CW: What it was like. And then they would just sit down there. Back in the fuselage.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And we’d land them at some place.
GR: Dunsford.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Dunsford. Yeah.
CW: And —
GR: My father in law who’d been a prisoner of war for five years. He flew back on a Lancaster.
CW: Oh.
GR: It could have been you.
CW: It well could have been. Aye. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. He’d been captured at Dunkirk. And flew back.
CW: Oh blimey. That was early enough wasn’t it?
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: To be captured.
GR: So, and then the last entry in the logbook in May which is absolutely fantastic. 31st of May. A tour of German cities.
CW: Yeah. We took a guy with a camera.
GR: Right.
CW: And he took photographs and he gave us some. One or two each.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And they were [pause] oh it was just shocking to look down really and thought we’d done all that.
GR: Yes. Because obviously I’m looking and it was obviously in daylight. Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So no. Proof of, proof of what Bomber Command did and the success of Bomber Command.
CW: Yes.
GR: And so —
CW: Yeah.
GR: So, how else did, how long did you stay in the RAF for Colin?
CW: I think it were about five years in all.
GR: Oh yeah. So you weren’t —
CW: I didn’t stay on. No.
GR: Well, most of them, most people would have come out 1946 but if you stayed a bit longer. I’m looking. So [pause] so demobbed. Back home to Sheffield.
CW: That’s right.
GR: And what did you do with the rest of your life?
CW: Well, I can, I can put it on camera now that one of the flights in there.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Was a cross country flight and my wife and I had got married. I was only twenty one and we got married and she came to Coningsby. She went to the cobblers and he put her up to sleep in his house and his shop, and then one day I said, ‘Well I shan’t be seeing you tonight because we’ve got this flight on.’ And she said, ‘Well, why can’t I come? [laughs] I said, ‘Not really.’ But anyway, she did. So we smuggled.
GR: You smuggled your wife on to a Lancaster.
CW: Yeah. And then she, and then we took off. Yeah. And then she said, Andy, said to her, the pilot said when we were coming back when the exercise was over kind of, he said, ‘What, was it, what did you think? Was it —’ She said, ‘Well it wasn’t very exciting was it?’ So he said to the gunner, he said, ‘Give me a corkscrew.’ Which he did. And she just went aaaahhh. So I switched the microphone on and they all heard her.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And then when we came back and we got in the van to come back and there was one, well what can I say? A typical, ‘Hello there, how are you and all that darling,’ and he saw her get in the van, and he said ‘Oh. And where have you come from?’ So she said, ‘Oh I’ve been flying.’ He said, ‘Oh jolly good show. Jolly good show.’ He really thought, yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So —
GR: So you were demobbed from the RAF. You and your wife back to Sheffield.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Did you go back to plumbing or —
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. And that was the end of the wartime experiences.
CW: Yeah. That’s the war. Yeah.
GR: Ok. Thank you. Thank you Colin.
CW: Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Colin Wood
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:35:06 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWoodC160325
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-25
Description
An account of the resource
Colin Wood grew up in Sheffield and worked as a plumber until he volunteered for the RAF. He trained in Canada and flew operations as a navigator with 106 Squadron from RAF Metheringham. On arrival at the station his pilot and three others made their flight with an experienced crew but only the pilot returned. Colin and his crew were later posted to 83 Squadron Pathfinders.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943-07-08
1944-02
1945
106 Squadron
83 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Bitteswell
RAF Coningsby
RAF Metheringham
RAF Syerston
RAF West Freugh
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/178/5757/LBriggsR1893726v1.1.pdf
d1312b0386b0e78b8ed0110246e7101f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Briggs, Roy
R Briggs
Description
An account of the resource
24 items. One oral history interview with Roy Briggs (1893726 Royal Air Force), his logbook, service material, training material, official documents and 12 photographs. Roy Briggs trained as a wireless operator and flew four operations with 576 Squadron from RAF Fiskerton. He also took took part in Operation Manna and Operation Exodus as well as Cook’s tours over Germany.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Roy Briggs and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-28
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Briggs, R
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Roy Briggs' flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners and flight engineers
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LBriggsR1893726v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Herefordshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Shropshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Suffolk
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Cuxhaven
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Plauen
Netherlands--Delft
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Netherlands--Valkenburg (South Holland)
Wales--Gwynedd
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1945-04-10
1945-04-11
1945-04-14
1945-04-15
1945-04-18
1945-04-22
1945-04-29
1945-04-30
1945-05-01
1945-05-02
1945-05-03
1945-05-07
1945-05-16
1945-06-05
1945-06-30
1945-07-04
1945-08-15
1945-08-17
1945-08-26
1945-08-28
1945-09-13
1945-09-15
1945-10-01
1945-10-03
1945-11-07
1945-11-09
1945-11-23
1945-11-24
1945-11-26
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Navigators, air bombers, air gunners and flight engineers flying log book for Roy Briggs. The log book covers the period 30 December 1942 to 17 March 1947. Roy Briggs trained as a wireless operator in Great Britain. He flew four night time and daylight bombing operations and six operation Manna supply drops in April and May 1945 with 576 Squadron from RAF Fiskerton. His targets were Bremen, Cuxhaven, Heligoland and Plauen. His pilot on operations was Flying Officer Roberts. Aircraft flown were Anson, Dominie, Lancaster, Proctor, Stirling and Wellington. He also took part in Cook's tours and the repatriation of troops from Italy as part of Operation Dodge.
138 Squadron
156 Squadron
1660 HCU
30 OTU
35 Squadron
576 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
Dominie
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Balderton
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Catterick
RAF Cranwell
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Graveley
RAF Hixon
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Madley
RAF Seighford
RAF Swinderby
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Upwood
RAF Warboys
RAF Wyton
RAF Yatesbury
Stirling
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/365/5765/WardM [Pesaro].jpg
d9a2d9c693790af82307dda6f15eb90a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/365/5765/AWardEM160217.1.mp3
0e6cbd95c57a49ef84a82479d97093ed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ward, Mary
Mary Ward
Elsie Mary Ward
E M Ward
Mary Brown
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. Three oral history interviews with Elizabeth Mary Ward (893293, Women's Auxiliary Air Force), her dog tags, an aeroplane broach and a photograph album. Mary Ward was a cook but re-mustered and was promoted becoming a map officer. She served with Bomber Command at RAF Driffield between 1940 and 1944 before being posted to Coastal Command.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Mary ward and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-04-24
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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Ward, EM
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CB: Let me just introduce you. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 17th of February 2016. We’re back with Mary Ward in Crowthorne and we’re picking up on some of the points that needed elaborating upon and the first point is really, Mary, to do with your fiancé Douglas and what happened with that. How did you come to meet him in the first place and what went on after that?
MW: Well, I can’t remember the exact dates of when we met but it was ‘42 and he came with the rest of his crew to my map office to collect some maps. They needed new charts and they, they came to me to pick up the maps and the charts and he stayed behind when the rest of the crew left the office and asked me if I could go out with, if I would like to go to York with him. So, yes. I went to York with him and which followed, several dates followed and then he was diverted and was away for a few, a few days. I can’t remember exactly where the diversion was at this moment and then he came back and a few nights later he, they were, they went to an advance base and, to do reconnaissance over the Bay of Biscay.
CB: And this is flying in Wellingtons.
MW: That was flying in yes and he, he didn’t return that night. Well, several of the crews were lost that night but we, we, I was on duty. Most nights I was on duty when we were operating and we, I stayed until 8 or 9 o’clock in the morning trying to see if there was going to be any news but no there wasn’t any news and several days went by and I said to Squadron Leader Ivor Jones, ‘Do you think there’s any hope?’ And I actually said to him at that stage, ‘I can’t go on with this job. It’s too, too much to take. Losing all these boys.’ And his reply was that ‘I’m old enough to be your father. You’ve got to stop being, you mustn’t relate to this incident. You must put it aside because I need you here.’ So, right, well several months went by and worked very hard. That was a very busy time. And then I got a letter from Douglas’s mother who lived at Richmond. She had been, had been sent the, the um Douglas’s um kit and everything from, from the station. The adjutant had organised, always, always organised these things and, and she said, ‘I would like to meet you. Would you come and stay with me for the weekend?’ She said, ‘I’ve, I’d had a letter from Douglas just before, before he, he went missing and he said he’d met the girl he wanted to marry, he was going to marry.’ But I couldn’t do it then. I’m afraid, Chris, that it was too much for me. I had work. We were in Yorkshire, at Linton and they were in, she was in London so I kept putting it off and she kept phoning me. In the end, several months later, I did go. Very, very emotional. I’ll never forget the time she, when I went to meet her and I stayed the weekend, a lovely house. But she sobbed and sobbed. It really was her only son. The last one in their family and do you want to know what she was a sister, theatre sister in the South Middlesex Hospital and she said she’d married late and all she wanted was a little, a boy which she got and at twenty years old he was killed. Well, we did become very friendly. If you want me to go on with this do you? Ahum. And I went there quite a lot and then the time came for me. It was coming towards the end of ‘45 it would be and she said. ‘What are you going to do? Will you come and live with me after the, when the war’s over?’ I said, ‘No.’ She said, ‘You can have the house. You can have everything I’ve got’. But it was too much. I was too young to tie myself down at that stage and I knew Doug wouldn’t really have wanted me to do, to tie myself down so. And I met Roy and I had, well you probably saw from that diary I had loads of young men from the RAF from, from Australia who really wanted me to, to go back to Australia with them but in the end I decided, no. I would get a job and, and stay here. So we, we parted company really. I did write to her a few times afterwards but she was very disappointed that I wouldn’t go and live and live with her. And then I met Roy and um but that was after when I went back to, to South Wales to um to Brawdy. That’s Coastal Command, Brawdy. That’s where they were actually operating. They were still doing met, met work from there and I was there for a while until they, they closed Brawdy. I think the navy took it on then and then we went, we went to Chivenor, near Barnstable and from there I went to Northwood. That was headquarters at Coastal Command and from there I was demobbed. So, up until that time I think, I can’t remember, but I can, I can find out when I went to Bilbao. Up until that time I really, I mean I don’t, I can honestly say that there isn’t really a day that goes by when I don’t think of Douglas in some way or other and his christening cup is there on the mantelpiece. And his engagement ring. You will be very interested in this because she gave me her engagement ring which is a lovely three diamonds ring which I wore a lot and my granddaughter was looking at my, and she said she liked my rings and I said, ‘Right, well you can have this one when you get engaged.’ So recently, only last Christmas I had Douglas’s engagement ring put right. You know, cleaned up and made, made to fit and everything, you see. It is an old fashioned one of course. It’s quite old. And I gave it to her when she got engaged earlier this year. Well, I gave, I gave it to her boyfriend before then but Abigail now has it and she said, ‘Grandma,’ she said, ‘It’s so beautiful,’ she said, ‘I have to keep putting it in the box,’ back in the box looking at it. So that has been passed, as something that’s been passed on to her, on to her. Through her.
CB: So, you were thinking of Douglas all this time.
MW: Ahum.
CB: Was that -
MW: I only knew him -
CB: How long did you know him?
MW: Three months at the most.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes. But three months, three days, almost, almost you could say three minutes is long enough to know. You know you’ve got, there’s an attraction there isn’t there? You see, you’ve -
CB: Right. So, after how long did he propose?
MW: How much?
CB: After how many weeks or months did he propose to you? How long did you know him before he proposed?
MW: Oh only a few, they were all a bit like only, oh it must have been less than a month but he, and he used to make a joke of it because he used to send the boys, the other boys, the rest of the crew were there. They would say, ‘Oh when are you going to marry Mary then?’ And he said, ‘No.’ No. Oh some date in the far distance he would say but I didn’t, I wouldn’t have married anyone until after the war was over. In my, my, it wasn’t, in my book it wasn’t fair really, to get married, not to, but I had a feeling with the boys, with the bomber boys that they really, they wanted to leave something behind and, and if they could marry you and get you pregnant well they would. You know, there was something being, they knew, I mean all the boys knew that they weren’t, they weren’t likely to come back and of course most of them didn’t. It was only the few that um like Cheshire. Leonard was there at that time and his office was next door to mine until I moved upstairs. I was going to say to you, and I’m digressing, is there a possibility that I could get up to Linton?
CB: Absolutely. Yes. We can arrange that.
MW: I did read somewhere in the magazine that they had, they had funding that they, not that money would make any difference but I would just need the authority and perhaps a driver or something to, to go up for a couple of nights.
CB: Well, we do have a link with Linton on Ouse. There’s a wing commander who is responsible for the history of the place.
MW: Ahum.
CB: So I know we can get that sorted.
MW: You have that.
CB: Ahum
MW: Oh.
CB: Peter Jones who’s the, one of the -
MW: Who?
CB: Peter Jones.
MW: Peter Jones. Oh yes.
CB: Jones. He sent you the album back and he deals with all the, I send stuff to him.
MW: Oh really? Oh.
CB: So we can send that -
MW: He sent a very nice letter.
CB: Did he? Good.
MW: And Heather sent one as well.
CB: Good.
MW: Yes.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Well I would appreciate that because I think now as I say I’m just hoping that I’ll get Roy into a nursing home. Then I can have some free time.
CB: Of course.
MW: And do it because I do feel that this is, this is the last straw.
CB: Yeah.
MW: This is, you know, I really must do it -
CB: Ahum.
MW: Now. Otherwise I might do something disastrous because it is at that pitch at the moment, you know.
CB: Well, we, just keep us posted and we can sort it out. I know that because of a conversation separately that I’ve had with -
MW: Yes. I’m sure.
CB: With Peter.
MW: It would, it’s so nostalgic.
CB: Of course.
MW: But in my mind I can take you to the, to the, in to the headquarters, up the stairs into the adjutant’s room, to the intelligence office, the operations room and, and all those places. They’re all in my head you see.
CB: Of course. Of course.
MW: And it would be lovely just to have. I think it would be lovely -
CB: Ahum.
MW: Just to have a, have a look around again.
CB: So you met Doug when he was twenty two.
MW: He was twenty.
CB: Twenty.
MW: Yes.
CB: And you were twenty two.
MW: Yes.
CB: And um -
MW: He would have been, June the, June the um is it -
CB: ‘Cause the 12th was when he was lost. June ‘42.
MW: When he went down.
CB: Yes.
MW: Yes. And then in the August, on the 17th of August he would have been twenty one.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes.
CB: So what was the, you had a lot of choice of aircrew on the station.
MW: Had a lot of -?
CB: Choice of aircrew ‘cause there was so many.
MW: Oh.
CB: What was special about Doug?
MW: I don’t know really. He was just, we just seemed to hit it off. He was a very good dancer and I wasn’t and he was a very good skater. He skated at the ice rink at Richmond. And, and all that but I don’t know I don’t even know whether I knew him well enough to know how much he appreciated music but I’ve always been fanatic about classical music and I still am but whether or not he was I wouldn’t really know. He had quite a nice twinkle in his eye you know. He was, sort of a nice smile. Other than that -
CB: And was he a navigator? What was he?
MW: Was he - ?
CB: Was he a navigator or - ?
MW: He was observer plus navigator.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes. That was a bit more than a navigator.
CB: So he’d been trained in South Africa had he?
MW: No.
CB: Oh he hadn’t. Okay.
MW: No. Here.
CB: Right.
MW: He was a biochemist and he worked for [Joe Lyons] and he’d only just started. Well I mean, obviously, because of his age. He was only twenty, you see when he was killed.
CB: Yeah. And on the airfield, just going a bit broader than this now, you mentioned last time about you were issuing the charts for the raids but the lads would come and talk to you.
MW: Oh, yes they did.
CB: So what was the basis of that?
MW: The basis of that?
CB: Yeah. Their conversations.
MW: Oh their conversations. Well -
CB: Apart from the fact that you were a pretty girl that they came because also they had concerns. Did they?
MW: They would tell you about their personal life. Tell me anyway. And they would say how a lot of them didn’t want to go to the Ruhr and they didn’t, they didn’t, they didn’t know the target at that time when they came in until we went into the briefing room and everybody else was assembled. The met officer and the intelligence officer and briefing and everything and then once they, we had a large board on the wall, blackboard, and they, and then the route and everything was, was up on that board for them and the squadron navigation officer and the intelligence officer would point out various routes to go which were, which had, heavy, heavy flak and or searchlights and things like that but a lot of the time I know that a lot of them didn’t take any notice of what, where and they went their own way. Cheshire did that an awful lot.
CB: Oh did he?
MW: And they would change course and go over the routes that they thought might be more -
CB: From experience.
MW: Yes.
CB: Because what we’re talking about is a big map on the wall isn’t it?
MW: This -
CB: And it shows the route on this huge map -
MW: Yes. But we had -
CB: On the wall at the end of the -
MW: A big blackboard -
CB: Yeah.
MW: As well on the night when we, a big, like at school.
CB: Yeah.
MW: You know, a big blackboard it was and that’s what we had in the intelligence office to write the names of the, we wrote all the names down on the board that were going and who they were and the number of the aircraft and everything.
CB: Right.
MW: On that board so that when, when you came back in the morning, so when they first started coming back, you would be able to, to, you cross off the ones who’d arrived and what time they’d arrived back and then of course the ones that didn’t come back were still there on the board.
CB: Ahum.
MW: But when they came back of course they came straight up to the briefing office, to the interrogation office and the intelligence officer there and I was there and I took the aids to escape from them and made some more, made the tea for them.
CB: Ahum.
MW: But when, when they were talking to me before they took off, not all of them came in but a lot of them came in, it was mainly about they didn’t really like certain targets. Well, that was obvious really that they were heavily, they were going to be heavily bombed, er shot at. The Ruhr was very, very well protected and Hamburg and places, that was a bit further up. Hamburg is a bit further up but um and of course Berlin was almost, at that time, Berlin, you could only carry the Whitleys and the Wellingtons could only just get to Berlin on the fuel they had. And so there was no, no point in trying to go around twice or anything because they hadn’t got the fuel to get there. It was just, just enough fuel to get them in to, in to Berlin and back but, until the Halifax and the Lancasters came in and then they could of course.
CB: So, we’re talking the early part of the war before the heavy bombers -
MW: Yes.
CB: Came in.
MW: Yes.
CB: Right.
MW: And I mean for a lot of the, for a long time when I went to Driffield, at Driffield all they were doing was dropping leaflets from there but um -
CB: How did they feel about that?
MW: Not very good. But we didn’t have it, Chris.
CB: No.
MW: We didn’t have anything. It’s alright for Churchill to stand up there and say that we’ll do this, we’ll do that but we hadn’t anything to do it with until once the factories got going in this country and we made, well we made wonderful progress of course.
CB: So this added to the apprehension of the crews?
MW: Yes. Yes.
CB: Is what you’re saying?
MW: Yes they wanted to go, those boys. Yes they, but of course a lot of them weren’t so keen on the, on the target. Going in the Halifaxes, they were very so slow but I mean they used to christen the Whitley as a flying coffin.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Oh you know that do you?
CB: I do. Yes. So when the bigger planes came, so we’re talking about the Halifax and Lancasters, but Halifax in Yorkshire, how did the attitude of the crews change?
MW: It did change quite a bit really because they, for one thing we had, at Linton we would have the first Halifaxes to have cameras so you had a camera in there.
CB: For the target.
MW: But it did show a lot. It showed an awful lot in the first, in the beginning that they were, some of them were nowhere near the target.
CB: Right
MW: I shouldn’t say that should I?
CB: No, you should because these are important points and the review that was carried out proved that they were sometimes fifty miles away -
MW: Absolutely.
CB: From the target. And you -
MW: I had a job then –
CB: You were seeing that
MW: In the beginning. I didn’t do a lot of it mind you.
CB: Ahum.
MW: But I did do it because my eyesight is very short-sighted well not very short but good enough to read a very tiny, and I did a lot of looking at the maps when they came back from the cameras and you could see that, you know, then but the boys seemed to appreciate that. And then we had the other. What was it called? H2O I think.
CB: H2S.
MW: H2S.
CB: Yes.
MW: That’s right. Yes.
CB: The radar.
MW: That was fitted and I think that was we were one of the first stations to get that, you see.
CB: Right.
MW: And those maps were very, very secret and we made sure that they signed for them.
CB: Right.
MW: But of course that soon went by the board and everybody got them and that but Linton was very upmarket in that -
CB: Was it?
MW: Respect but it was -
CB: Right.
MW: We were. I don’t know why but, whether we of course later on with Cheshire there and Chesh was there for a long time and it’s – [pause]
CB: So when, when they came back from a raid they came upstairs.
MW: In to the briefing -
CB: Brought the charts back.
MW: In to the interrogation office, yes.
CB: What happened then? How did it then progress with Ivor?
MW: Oh. Well we, they had they had a cup of tea and a biscuit and they, they had a one to one talk with an intelligence officer. We had Ivor Jones and Brylcreem and what was the other ones called? About four of them there.
CB: Right.
MW: One was the manager from Brylcreem. The hair thing.
CB: Right.
MW: We always called him Brylcreem but Ivor Jones was the senior man.
CB: Right.
MW: And, but they all got an interview. A one to one interview with them and asked where they, what they’d done, how, what, what the opposition was like, what the flak was like and, and that and obviously a lot of the time they had been, been, come back with, with a few bomb holes in their, in the aircraft but what height did they bomb from and how many times did they circle around the target and just general things like that and then they were free to go and sometimes they would come back in to my office and have another cup of tea and sit down and talk a bit but other times they went off to the mess and had bacon and eggs and, and you know it was dawn by then you see.
CB: So, what -
MW: But I stayed till about eight in the morning because some nights I was on again you see but I did tell you about the, the, my role in, was, - the establishment in the RAF you know about that. If they allocated, they allocated at that time one map clerk, special duties map clerk for each station and I was that one for Linton but if, if you wanted leave you had to have liaison with one of the corporals or the sergeants in the intelligence office that didn’t deal with maps but would take over from me but I didn’t have a colleague who I could just say, ‘I want leave.’ And that, and that happened on all the stations because we were only needed on bomber stations really because the rest of the, Fighter Command and Coastal and that, they didn’t need a lot of maps there but it was critical for us to have enough maps available for -
CB: Of Germany.
MW: Yes. If, I mean most of it was covered on a 48-4 and the Mercator’s projection map but - [laughs] Yes.
CB: Big.
MW: All came
CB: Rolled up
MW: Rolled up. My poor fingers. They’re very, very harsh. The edges of maps and charts and charts especially. And you’d try to roll them back to get them into these big chests that we had to put them in and they, and you -
CB: Difficult.
MW: Nip your fingers off with the, if you weren’t careful.
CB: So, some of the crew used to return for another cup of tea.
MW: Yes. They did.
CB: It wasn’t the fact it was another cup of tea was it? They came to talk to you.
MW: Probably.
CB: So what would they be talking about in that case?
MW: Oh, what they were going to do, you know, if they, when they got their leave and where they were going to. It’s just, didn’t talk about what they had done so much as what they, their personal life. And I had one or two conscientious objectors and that was very difficult, very difficult because the RAF had paid a lot of money to train a pilot or a navigator and then after eight to ten weeks of training they decided they couldn’t do it and they became conscientious and the RAF is very cruel to those young men.
CB: Ahum.
MW: You know.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Yes.
CB: I’d like to know more though.
MW: Absolutely. Yes.
CB: So what did they do to them?
MW: Well, they, they were just thrown out of the RAF. No two ways about it. There were no references or anything like that given. They weren’t allowed to re-muster to do another job. It was a very cruel and harsh end but a couple of them got out on religious grounds. They couldn’t come to terms with that fact that God didn’t want them to, to kill other people whereas I will say most of the boys I spoke to and Cheshire was certainly had no regrets whatsoever about going over to Germany and bombing. He didn’t. They started this, we’ve got to, we’ve got to, that was Cheshire’s attitude about it but when he, I don’t know what year when he was flying in 617 on the, and he had a Mosquito and he went low level flying and what they call that and he went to a factory to [drop leaflets] to bomb in France.
CB: In France. Yes
MW: You know this do you?
CB: Yes. Go on.
MW: And he circled around three times I think to warn those girls to get out and they did and then he went in and bombed it you see but one of those girls came back to Linton.
Other: Oh really.
MW: To thank him. Yes. And he said, ‘Oh no. Go away’ he said, ‘We don’t, we’re glad you all got out.’ So, that was his attitude but his attitude changed and he was a different character after Hiroshima. And that is what, he was a different character after that.
CB: Because he was on the bomber -
MW: He was on the -
CB: One of the bombers.
MW: Not on the one that dropped the bomb but -
CB: The second one.
MW: The one that was observing. Yes. Yes. I don’t know much about that because it was, it all took place.
CB: Yeah.
MW: You know, there, but it was -
CB: And then he became a Roman Catholic and then he started his Cheshire Homes.
MW: You have to speak up.
CB: He became a Roman Catholic and he -
MW: Oh he was a Roman Catholic.
CB: Also started -
MW: Yes he did.
CB: Started the Cheshire Homes.
MW: The Cheshire Homes with Sue Ryder yes. But I told you about him being married before didn’t -
CB: No. Go on.
MW: Oh didn’t I? Poor old Binney.
CB: Take that for me.
MW: Are you alright for tea?
Other: Yes.
CB: Do you want to stop for a mo?
MW: Yeah okay. Do you want another bit of cake?
[pause]
CB: So, we’ve just taken a brief break and we’ve been talking about conscientious objectors but what about the other people who came under the title LMF. How did you come up against that?
MW: Um I didn’t see a great deal of that apart in, well I suppose in a way it was about three or four of them actually came through aircrew who, who decided that they couldn’t cope and they were known as conscientious objectors. A lot of them did offer the, the reason for not wanting to continue with flying, with, with bombing was that religion and whether or not they’d been religious people before or whether they’d just taken up with religion I really don’t know but it, they were obviously lacking in some moral fibre yes because it takes a lot of nerve to be a bomber pilot at whatever age. They were young men. This must be an awfully hard for you to go out night after night knowing that you’re not, you probably won’t come back and I think these young men probably couldn’t take that. But on the other hand the RAF had, had paid a lot of money to get them trained to be crew, to be aircrew which was all the air crew, as you know Chris were all voluntary reserves. Nobody was conscripted to aircrew and therefore if you felt fit enough and this was what you wanted to do for the country you should have been able to carry it out after that training but um all I did was offer them tea and sympathy but I couldn’t really do much else except listen and, and that’s what I did. To listen to them. They had various problems. They had this and they had that in their personal life which was, which they felt was more important than being, being, being shot down over Germany.
CB: And in many cases they felt a lot better for talking with you.
MW: Well, I wouldn’t know but I think they came so possibly that they did. Yes. Yes, I had a lot of spare time during the day when I was just tidying maps. I had a large office and when I was just tidying maps and checking on numbers of charts and things. Well, one of the charts which was used practically every night was Europe 48-4 on those were I had to order and perhaps if I’d had a delivery well that took a lot of time putting them all away, putting everything away and that but I did have quite a lot of time, spare time, during the day until we got the target and everything and then I needed to get those ready and the aids to escape which all had to be signed for. So, really and truly they, they, they knew that they could probably pop up to see me or pop up for, to have a chat and come in my office.
CB: Could you just explain what the aids to escape were?
MW: Well um they had a lot, the ones that I was involved with were, were things that they put in their boots and there was maps, there’s a silk map. Now one of them, one of these silk maps I had, of France. They’re back to back on both sides. Silk they are. And I, I did have one and I gave it to my cousin and he’s had it framed so you that can have one side one, one side and other as a picture like on the wall and he’s agreed with me that when he dies that he’ll send it to the museum for you. You’ll have it so you can have it.
CB: Thank you.
MW: There -
CB: Yeah.
MW: But um -
CB: What else did they have?
MW: There’s a compass.
CB: Yeah. That’s a small compass.
MW: Small compass.
CB: Pin head type.
MW: Yes. Yes.
CB: Button size.
MW: That’s right. Yes. And what else were they? I don’t remember too much about, about those.
CB: And then they had made their own arrangements for rations.
MW: Ahum. They, one of, one of the group captains at Linton used to wear a civilian suit underneath his, his uniform.
CB: His battle dress, yes.
MW: But he didn’t fly very often. That was Whitley wasn’t it, was it who did that?
CB: So he could immediately go into civilian clothes.
MW: Exactly. Yes. Yes, yeah, strip off everything if they were shot down and they had a chance of getting away.
CB: Now you moved on from Linton to other places. The Halifax had arrived before you moved. The operations were different because of the camera amongst other things.
MW: Before I moved?
CB: But you moved on from, from Linton. Where did you go to next?
MW: Oh but I was at Linton for three and a half years.
CB: Right.
MW: No. It was Driffield. We were bombed out of that.
CB: Of course.
MW: We did that last time didn’t we?
CB: Yes. Yes.
MW: August the 15th we had a daylight raid.
CB: Yeah.
MW: And we were wiped out of Lint –
CB: Yeah
MW: Er Driffield. Ammunition went up, we’d got people killed and that was a day I shall never forget.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Because it was a daylight raid and it was very early on, you see, in 1940 but, and then I was, then I went, we were moved to Pocklington with 102 and 76 and then we went from, I went on a course and, have I not told you this?
CB: What was the course for?
MW: Well they were very short of cooks.
CB: Oh yes.
MW: They sent me to Melksham.
CB: Oh yes.
MW: To do this course and this was, this was a day when the Battle of Britain was on and I can honestly sit here and tell you that I have no recollection whatsoever of what happened there. Where I was. It is as if there’s a complete blank.
CB: Really.
MW: I know I went to Melksham. I know I passed the course and I know that I came back to Linton but I’ve no other recollection at all and that was because, the only recollection I have of being there is that we were scared out of our wits because they were bombing day and night, daylight bombing and it just went on and on. You couldn’t, but I have a good memory as you know.
CB: This was Germans bombing you?
MW: But I can’t tell you a thing about that.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Nothing.
CB: You’re talking about the Germans bombing you?
MW: Yes. Oh yes. That was the battle yes, the Battle of Britain. That was on then. And then I came back to Linton and that’s where I stayed but I went back to Linton in to the officers’, to the sergeants’ mess to do, to do cooking and I, there was a civilian cook there ‘cause they did have a lot of civilians still working on the stations from the remains from before the war, you see. And the civilian chef and he, he used to give the orders and I took the rations across to the intelligence office. He said to me, ‘Will you take the rations across for the flying,’ for that night. The, the sergeant’s mess and the officers’ mess provided the rations. The tea and the sugar and the biscuits to make tea for them when they came back, you see and I took them across there and Ivor Jones, the intelligence officer, looked up from his desk when I went in and he said, ‘Where are you from?’ And I said, ‘I’m from the sergeants’ mess. I’ve brought the rations for tonight.’ And he said, ‘Oh would you come downstairs with me?’ He said, ‘Would you like, do you know anything about maps?’ I said, ‘No. Not a lot.’ And he said, he said ‘Where is the mouth of the Danube? Do you know that?’ I remember this as plain as anything. I said, is it in the Red, in the, er where was it now? It’s in the, can’t get it, it’ll come back and he said oh and what about so and so and so and so and I seemed to provide him with the answers but I said, ‘What’s all this about sir?’ And he said, ‘I want you to come and work for me.’ I said, ‘I can’t do that.’ I said, ‘I’m already in the, in the -’ you know what it was like in the RAF you had to have a re-muster put you to all the re-mustering, do all that and send it away and they would put it through to the officers in charge. I know this was very early on in the war, in 1940 but it’s he seemed to take command. He was an ex-military man and he, we always called him the colonel and he said, ‘Report to me tomorrow morning at 9 o’clock.’ I went back to the civilian chef and he said, ‘He can’t do that. He can’t take my staff.’ I said, ‘Well what I do?’ And so anyway I thought I’d better do what he says. He’s a squadron leader. So I went back and he said, ‘One of these lads, these corporals in the intelligence office, will show you what to do and you can go on a course in about a week’s time to Gloucester and, and then you’ll come back and when you come back you’ll be a corporal. And this, all this happened, you see. It was most, I mean you, you might think I’m telling you a really big story but I’m not. I assure you that is exactly what happened.
CB: And this was all when you were aged nineteen.
MW: Hmmn?
CB: This was when you were aged nineteen.
MW: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
MW: Twenty actually.
CB: Twenty.
MW: Yeah. This is what happened and it was so out of character for anybody to do. I don’t think you’d find anyone else in the RAF who had been promoted like that by, by a squadron leader. Just, just said, ‘Look, you come and you - ,’ and I thought about it afterwards and I thought well I really didn’t know very much. I hadn’t, I had, I wasn’t very good at school really but I was good at geography funnily enough but I wasn’t all that bright at school because I wanted to be outside. I spent most of the time looking out of the window you know instead of paying attention to the board but I think it was perhaps not, it’s not charisma but it’s attraction. People want to talk to me.
CB: Ahum.
MW: And I think he knew that. And of course -
CB: He could sense it.
MW: And this is what worked for him. These boys needed someone. Not motherly love at nineteen or twenty years old but that sort of, so that was where I was and that was where I stayed for the rest of the um until later on. He, he then, Ivor Jones said, ‘I’ve put a recommendation in for you for a commission’. He said, ‘You’ve got an interview,’ on so and so and so and so and I thought about and I said, ‘I don’t want it sir.’ He said, ‘You don’t want it?’ I said, ‘No. I don’t want it.’ And he said, ‘Well,’ Anyway I went and I got accepted but I still didn’t want it.
CB: Ahum.
MW: So I refused and he said, ‘Why don’t you want it?’ I said, ‘I don’t want to be an admin officer for a start.’ I said, ‘I don’t want to be and I don’t want to be, to go away from these boys. I don’t want to leave this job. This job is what I like doing.’ I didn’t like it in that sense but I did, I felt I was needed then, you know. Sort of needed there with looking -
CB: Ahum.
MW: And then a bit later on, another year later he said, ‘Are you, would you, would you consider doing, having a commission now?’ I said, ‘No. I don’t want it.’ It just didn’t appeal to me.
CB: No.
MW: To be sitting at a desk or -
CB: Quite.
MW: Or doing these things so then I moved. I’d say I moved on then a bit. I think we’ve done all this -
CB: I think we have. I need to ask you a couple of other things if I may. One is, you were a number of several hundred WAAFs. Two hundred perhaps.
MW: Oh on the station.
CB: On the station.
MW: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So what was the general link between the association between the WAAFs and the flying people?
MW: The flying?
CB: The aircrew.
MW: The aircrew.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Oh we all, all the girls loved them of course. I mean if you wanted a date you didn’t have, it wasn’t much if you didn’t have a date with, with, with aircrew or with an officer or something like that you, you, you were aiming a bit high but with aircrew yes they all liked the aircrew boys ‘cause they were fun you see. They were great, they were really, and er but I didn’t have much to do with the other WAAFs really because I was on shift work, you see. I mean my, my duties weren’t nine to five although I was usually there about 9 o’clock but because I would then have to be, be back in the evening, in the middle of the night and that was a bit traumatic when we, we had a very bad raid one night. We were always having, we were always being bombed at that time. They seemed to target the RAF stations up, up in the north and Cheshire came back and said, ‘It looks worse than we’ve left, what we’ve done in Germany.’ This RAF at Linton but um after then they decided that the WAAF couldn’t sleep on the camp so we were billeted out to various large houses in the vicinity and my, I went to Newton on Ouse which is just down the road from Linton. If you’ve been to Linton you probably know it’s just down the road and um but that wasn’t very good because I had to be, go on my bike in the middle of the night to get back to the office to, for interrogation you see and they used to be droning overhead and me on my bike trying to get back because you weren’t allowed lights or anything. But -
CB: It was dangerous on the road was it?
MW: On the road? At -
CB: Yes.
MW: Not in the middle of the night it wasn’t. No. No, it was, it’s very countrified, you know um but you couldn’t see where you were going in the middle of the night with no lights on.
CB: No.
MW: And there’s aircraft droning overhead but, the ones that were coming back because as I say I stayed until, until we cleared everybody and then it was about 8 o’clock or 9 o’clock and then you were so tensed up you couldn’t go to bed really so we used to hop off into York and have a play around, you know, in York for a bit, come back in the afternoon and have a bit of sleep because you might, I might be, be back on again in the evening you see. If the weather was good then I, you would be back on duty again but if the weather was bad you would have a few days off if it wasn’t fit for flying.
CB: Finally, fast forward to 1945.
MW: Hmmn?
CB: 1945.
MW: Yes.
CB: Fast forward to 1945. You, in your diary you’ve got a very brief statement on the 8th of May, VE day. About the end of the hostilities in Europe. The end of the war.
MW: Yes.
CB: Was the 8th of May. How did you feel at that time?
MW: Where, where the 8th of May, where was?
CB: So you’ve put in here, I’m going to have to do, you’ve put in here, “Down to the beach with Pam and Ray. Peace declared with Germany. Had tea at the Met Office.” So -
MW: Oh is it -?
CB: What happened really that day? Did everybody celebrate?
MW: Oh yes.
CB: Did it just go over their heads?
MW: Went mad. Everyone -
CB: Or what happened?
MW: Oh went mad down at the beach and you let all the dogs out. You know, some of the crews and we, we, had their dogs with them but they couldn’t have on the station. They had them boarded out you see and we went and got all the dogs and took them for a walk down on the beach. It was quite a nice day actually then wasn’t it. That, that year.
CB: And then on VJ day the end of the war in the Far East.
MW: Yes.
CB: Then -
MW: Oh I went to down to Plymouth didn’t I, because we were dancing in the Hoe in the middle of the night. Yes. That’s right.
CB: So, there really was a lot of celebration was there?
MW: Oh dear yes.
CB: With these things.
MW: Yes
MW: Yes. So it sounded as though there was plenty going on then.
MW: Yes. Yes.
CB: Yeah. Right.
MW: Well I wasn’t tied up with anybody at all of course. I didn’t get tied up with anybody after Douglas was killed until -
CB: No.
MW: Until I got, got to know Roy. I did know plenty of boys. I mean there was no shortage of friends to go out and that but I wasn’t over serious about anybody.
CB: No.
MW: Until as I say and that was sometimes think it probably wasn’t a good thing but on the other hand I should, should have probably given it a bit more time but it seemed to me that he was very keen to get married and, and at that time he was a very different person you see.
CB: Of course.
MW: A completely different person but this is what people as you say about the young marriages you, about Douglas, there’s nothing to say that that couldn’t have gone completely wrong because you don’t know the future do you?
Other: No.
CB: No.
MW: Although you think at the time that it’s all going to go -
CB: Yes.
MW: Alright but er -
CB: Yes. There’s another entry where there’s a chap who takes you on a flight after the war is finished over France.
MW: Yes. Oh yes.
CB: How on earth did you manage that?
MW: Well, yes. I was a bit privileged in those days and we yes we went over to France. That was, that wasn’t Roy’s crew. That was another crew. That was from Brawdy wasn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
MW: Yes and oh my goodness me how those, I really got to know what it was like being, being on board a Halifax with going over there oh it was awful. So little space in those things. You couldn’t, and of course you had to wear oxygen masks in those things. Nowadays, it’s completely different and yes that was quite exciting. I’d been wanting a flight but when I got to, I was at Shawbury, not Shawbury, Silverstone. You know the race course that was RAF and I was there for a short time. It was training and they wanted somebody to, to clear the map office ‘cause they hadn’t they’d had they hadn’t had anybody but they had a lot of instruments hanging about, navigational instruments so I went there for a short while and while I was there the nav officer said to me, he said, ‘Now if you don’t behave yourself you’re going up to Lossiemouth tomorrow’[laughs]. He would, he would threaten me you see and I kept saying, ‘Now when you’re going to Oxford again can I come for the trip?’ And he promised me. ‘Yes, he would. We would go.’ So, this particular day it was a really lovely sunny day and I said. ‘Now, look, can I come to Oxford with you if you’re going? And, ‘Oh alright but you won’t like it.’ I said, ‘But look it’s a lovely sunny day.’ Of course it was. There was all this, all this cloud about you see and oh God it was a terrible trip. This was in one these twin light aircraft. What was it? Anson?
CB: Anson.
MW: Anson. Yes.
CB: Avro Anson.
MW: Anson Avro Anson. It was the most awful trip. I’ve never felt so sick.
CB: Did you sit up at the front?
MW: Hmmn? Yeah I went up to the -
CB: Did you sit up at the front?
MW: Yes of course but of course it’s the cloud -
CB: Twin engine. Yes.
MW: But you have to run into cloud and then it went whoohoo! all over the place in those light aircraft in those days.
CB: I must just go to the loo.
MW: Ahum.
CB: Thank you.
MW: I hope it’s clean and tidy. Anyway how are the flowers?
Other: Oh doing well. Thank you very much.
MW: Are you still going?
Other: I’m still going.
MW: Oh good.
Other: Only, only really it’s more of a social thing I suppose because I’ve been doing it -
MW: Don’t, don’t give it up.
Other: No I won’t.
MW: It’s so therapeutic.
Other: It’s my, it’s one of my pastimes.
MW: Isn’t it?
Other: Yes. That’s right.
MW: The next time you come I’ve got a really lovely Daphne out here.
Other: Oh have you?
MW: Yes Daphne, not Miseria um Daphne Odora
Other: Ah huh.
MW: Marginata. And the scent is gorgeous.
Other: ‘Cause not many, not many flowers have a scent now do they?
MW: Not at this time of the year. No.
Other: No.
MW: No. And my, at the back I’ve got so many Hellebores out this year.
Other: Have you? Its’ been a good year for Hellebores.
MW: Have you got Hellebores?
Other: I have. They’re down at the bottom of the garden.
MW: Oh right.
Other: I can just see them.
MW: Yeah.
Other: I’m being very lazy actually because I need a gardener to come again and sort me out.
MW: Right.
Other: The lawns are all fine. They’re all being treated
MW: Yes.
Other: And airyated and God knows what but um -
MW: Well I have the gardener once a fortnight and I’m not giving up that.
Other: No, your garden’s lovely. Your garden’s lovely but you’ve got good soil.
MW: Ahum.
Other: My soil is clay based.
MW: Oh yes.
Other: And it’s a nightmare.
MW: Well I say good. This is sand really it’s -
Other: Yeah.
MW: Sandy.
Other: But it’s looks lovely rich, dark soil.
MW: The water runs through that you need in the summer. It goes very dry.
Other: Yeah.
MW: But I mean the Camelia’s on this wall I brought some the other day. Out already, you see.
Other: Well it doesn’t know what season it is.
MW: Look at the Daffs.
Other: I know. It’s all the same. I know. They’ve all come through haven’t they? It’s incredible.
MW: Yes. What it’s going to be like in a couple of months because everything will be gone.
Other: Well that’s right.
MW: They’re forecasting snow for the weekend aren’t they?
Other: Yes. Yes they are.
MW: The Daphne’s done very well this year and Peter, my friend brought me another one. What’s that one called? That’s over the side there but I don’t, hopefully it’s going to go, go, right in the corner when, as you go out. The Sarcococca, have you got that?
Other: No. I haven’t.
MW: Oh that’s, when you go, when you go out it’s right on the drive.
Other: Ok.
MW: It’s got little white flowers on it.
Other: Lovely.
MW: And the scent is fantastic.
Other: Beautiful. Oh I’ll have to look.
MW: Just pick a bit and take it off with you.
Other: I’ll just have a little look.
MW: Smell it in the car going out.
CB: Sounds super. Thank you.
Other: Yes.
MW: It’s really gorgeous.
Other: Yes. Yes
MW: Yes. Everything seems to be -
Other: Well as I say nothing knows what season it is.
MW: What it is, no.
Other: That’s the trouble.
MW: No.
Other: Isn’t it? Everything’s coming through far too early.
CB: Well the trees are blossoming where I am.
Other: Yeah it’s crazy isn’t it?
CB: Well we were just talking about the Daphne’s and things but I say my garden comes first. I mean I could really go to town on this house and have it all decorated but I’m not going to.
Other: Why bother? No. It’s, it’s
MW: Why spend the, I’d rather spend the money on the garden, you see.
Other: Exactly. Exactly ahum.
CB: You need to get going in a minute I know but final point blossoming is interesting comment in a way, a word because you have all these young girls who are WAAFs on an airfield and you have these young men and they were young men become real men very quickly in the terror of the war. How did the WAAFs react? They blossomed quickly? What was the sort of way things went with WAAFs?
MW: What was the -
CB: How did they react to being in the air force in these circumstances?
MW: In - ?
CB: How did the WAAFs react to being in front line station like Linton?
MW: I don’t think we thought anything about it. I didn’t think, I don’t think we even gave it a thought that we were in, no, I’m sure we didn’t.
CB: But they grew up quickly as well.
MW: We grew up quickly and oh yes, my goodness.
Other: Had to.
MW: You had to. We, it wasn’t, we were there to do a job and at the RAF as you know they, don’t suffer fools gladly. You have to do that job. I’m very concentrated and if I but I go in the straight line, I can’t sit on the, everything goes this way but of course I’m very much a perfectionist as well and I think that gives you, in the RAF that’s, they don’t want, they can’t have people who can’t take orders. If you’re given an order you that’s it, isn’t it?
CB: Let’s get on with it.
Other: Yeah.
MW: No, I don’t honestly think that any of the WAAFs that I knew I knew mostly met office girls in the later stages because sharing a hut and being, being, being an NCO you had, you were given charge of a hut or a house. In the early days at Linton and at Driffield I lived in the married quarters that belonged, that the RAF people had vacated when, you know, the wives, when the war started.
CB: Ahum.
MW: We had their bedding and everything because that was all supplied by the RAF as it is today of course. They, you, you go in naked and you come out naked really don’t you? Because they provide everything -
CB: Yes.
MW: For you but, and it is a very good life if you, if you can stand the discipline.
CB: Yes.
MW: Yes.
CB: So here we are in a barrack hut with all these young girls. How difficult were they, as their corporal, to manage their activities?
MW: It wasn’t very difficult really. I know there are a lot of stories. I’ve heard a lot of stories about the WAAF went off with airmen and got pregnant and so on and so forth but it was few and far between in my experience. I mean, you had to be in at five to midnight or whatever it was and you did it. I mean, If the circumstances where you didn’t catch the bus well you just had to pay the price for it. It was there were no excuse in the RAF.
CB: Ahum
Other: No.
MW: No. You just and I think, in my opinion the RAF is rather maligned really in as much what we did during that war hasn’t been, had enough said about it. We did, Bomber Command didn’t win the war as people have said but my goodness what we’d have done without them I’m afraid is, I dread to think. We couldn’t, with Hiroshima coming forward that much if we hadn’t done Hiroshima we would still have been fighting now wouldn’t we? They wouldn’t have given in would they?
CB: No.
MW: No. No.
CB: Well on that note I think we’d better let you get on. Thank you very much indeed and we’ll arrange another meeting. Thank you -
MW: Well I don’t think we have done very much today.
Other: Let’s get all this into -
CB: We’re just talking about Mary’s dog tags and the plane. What was the origins of those.
MW: The dog -?
CB: Those that everybody wore.
MW: Oh yes one is fireproof and the other’s waterproof. Yes.
CB: Right.
MW: And I don’t know which is which mind you but if you were in a bombing raid over here or anywhere if you’d been, if there was very little left that would still be there to recognise, say that that was you.
CB: Ahum.
MW: You had been there and equally if you’d been drowned this one of them would be.
CB: Right.
MW: We were issued with these on the first day and you wore them around your neck.
CB: Right. And it’s got your service number on it.
MW: Yes, your, its um and your religion.
CB: Yes.
MW: I think. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
MW: I say that. They need a bit of a clean-up.
CB: Okay.
CB: And this is little bits of silverware when they were making the Mosquito. They had to use a certain amount of silver in it and there were little bits left over and the boys would make little things like, and this is -
CB: A brooch.
MW: It’s a little brooch from, it’s pure silver and it is from a Mosquito.
CB: Fantastic yeah.
MW: A Mosquito? Yes, it would be, I think. Yes.
CB: Ok. Thank you.
MW: And you’re very welcome to those.
CB: So what we’re looking at now is the detail.
MW: Yes these are -
CB: Where the grave -
MW: Are all the correspondence from you?
CB: Yes. Thank you. And in your binder here we’ve got details of the grave of
MW: Yes.
CB: Douglas Arthur Harsum, your fiancé.
MW: Yes. That’s 58 Squadron. That’s his number and reserve -
CB: And he died on the 12th of June 1942.
MW: Yes. And I think that’s the rest of the crew and that’s his headstone -
CB: Right.
MW: In Bilbao. And these are on board the boat.
CB: How many years was it before you found where he was buried?
MW: This is only about eight or nine years ago.
CB: Right. So it -
MW: Going back.
CB: So it took sixty years -
MW: Yes.
CB: To find out -
MW: To find out.
CB: Where he was.
MW: Ahum.
MW: And I stood there and I mean it’s probably been on the internet. My cousin came for the day and I’d had this well not because of that but I said to him, ‘When you’re playing about on your computer would you like to have a look and see if you can find where this young man was buried?’ And he came back with it. Hello.
Other2: Hello. Hello. Hello.
Other: Hello.
MW: I said um and he came back the next morning. He said, ‘Well that was easy there was only one Harsum in the RAF.’ Because it’s a very unusual name.
CB: Yeah, indeed yeah.
MW: And he said he’s in so and so and so and so and I said to Roy, ‘Would you like to come?’ And he said, ‘No I wouldn’t,’ he said, ‘But why don’t you ask David if he would.’ So we, I rang David and I said, ‘How do you think about it?’ I said, ‘If I pay everything because I’d got this legacy you see from -
CB: Oh did you? Yes.
MW: And I said the three of us will go. And we went and I stood in front of that headstone and it was, I could almost hear Douglas say. ‘You’ve come at last.’
CB: Really?
MW: It was -
CB: It’s very touching.
MW: Strange. It really is. But it’s such a beautiful place.
CB: Is it?
MW: And do you know when we went in the lady that keeps it going she’s English married to um whether he’s Italian I think he’s probably Italian and she took us to the little, the book where you can, and I wrote in it.
CB: A Book of Remembrance
MW: And there’s a little church, a catholic church and, and a protestant church. Catholic one’s not used very often but she said the protestant one they always use it on Remembrance Day and it is open on some occasions but it’s so well kept.
CB: Is it?
MW: And this is a communal grave of course.
CB: Yes. Right -
MW: But that’s on board the, the Bilbao and -
CB: That is the
MW: That’s the -
CB: Commonwealth War Graves. Yes.
MW: And there are the war graves. Can you see [?]
Other: Yes, I can see. Yes. Yes.
MW: You can see and these are, [pause] oh that’s Lorna and me.
CB: Yeah.
MW: And that’s the lady who looks after it and I say there was a cockerel running around.
CB: Oh was there?
MW: I think that’s him there. And when we went back a couple of days later there was a rabbit
CB: Oh was there?
MW: Running around.
CB: Really?
Other: Wow
MW: Beautifully kept.
CB: Yes.
MW: And these are all the ones that, is this of any interest?
CB: Yes. Thank you.
MW: Would you like to take it?
CB: We’d like to borrow that as well.
MW: Would you?
CB: Yes. And let you have that back.
MW: Ok. Oh well you can have a look -
CB: Yeah.
MW: At it when you get back.
CB: Thank you.
MW: I mean you, as I say there’s only us three on it.
CB: Yes.
MW: And you’ll recognise me -
CB: But it’s an important link in what you’ve been talking about.
MW: Right. Well you take that.
CB: Thank you.
MW: And I’ll keep all your correspondence.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mary Ward. Two
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Ward joined the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force in 1940. She served briefly at RAF Driffield but mostly at RAF Linton on Ouse. She trained as a cook before being moved to duties as a map officer. She prepared maps for briefings and debriefings. She was engaged to a flying officer, Douglas Arthur Harsum, who was killed in action on 12 June 1942. She offered a listening ear to aircrew who would visit her for tea and a chat. She describes their fears and the dilemmas of those whom she calls ‘conscientious objectors’. For a time she worked in the office next to Leonard Cheshire’s. She describes the VE and VJ Day celebrations, as well as a flight she took in a Halifax over France. She transferred to RAF Coastal Command towards the end of the war, serving at RAF Brawdy, where she met her husband Roy Ward. She also describes visiting Harsum’s grave in Bilbao some sixty years after his death.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-17
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Mal Prissick
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:11:12 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWardEM160217
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Spain
Spain--Bilbao
Yemen (Republic)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942-06-12
1945
aircrew
animal
briefing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Cook’s tour
coping mechanism
debriefing
fear
final resting place
grief
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
heirloom
killed in action
lack of moral fibre
love and romance
military service conditions
operations room
RAF Driffield
RAF Linton on Ouse
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/357/5770/LGrimesS1271597v1.1.pdf
f78de867933d06f442ab2845bafcbb34
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grimes, Syd
Syd Grimes
S V Grimes
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Pilot Officer Sydney Grimes (173865, 1271597 Royal Air Force) a photograph, and his logbook. After training as a wireless operator/ air gunner he completed a tour on 106 Squadron at RAF Syerston. After a period as an instructor he joined 617 Squadron for his second tour where he took part in the attacks on the Tirpitz.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Grimes and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Grimes, SV
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sydney Grimes' observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LGrimesS1271597v1
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Description
An account of the resource
Royal Air Force observer's and air gunner's flying log book for Sydney Grimes, wireless operator, covering the period from 2 July 1942 to 22 August 1945. Detailing training, operations flown, instructional duties and post war flying. He was stationed at RAF Evanton, RAF Madley, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Wigsley, RAF Syerston, RAF Balderton, RAF Scampton, RAF Winthorpe, RAF Woodhall Spa, RAF Bardney and RAF Sturgate. Aircraft flown in were Dominie, Proctor, Botha, Wellington, Anson, Manchester, Halifax and Lancaster. He flew a total of 41 operations, 24 night operations with 106 squadron and 15 daylight and 2 night operations with 617 squadron. Targets were, Kiel, Frankfurt, Spezia, Pilsen, Stettin, Duisburg, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Essen, Wuppertal, Bochum, Gelsenkirchen, Cologne, Turin, Hamburg, Berlin, Tromso, Urft Dam, Ijmuiden, Politz, Rotterdam, Oslo Fjord, Emden, Koln, Poortershaven, Viesleble [Bielefeld] viaduct and Ladbergen. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Stephens and Flight Lieutenant Gumbley.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Scotland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Czech Republic--Plzeň
England--Herefordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Rutland
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bielefeld
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Emden (Lower Saxony)
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Ladbergen
Germany--Wuppertal
Italy--La Spezia
Italy--Turin
Netherlands--Ijmuiden
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Norway--Tromsø
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Germany--Düsseldorf
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Urft Dam
Atlantic Ocean--Oslofjorden
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1943-04-04
1943-04-05
1943-04-10
1943-04-11
1943-04-13
1943-04-14
1943-04-16
1943-04-17
1943-04-18
1943-04-19
1943-04-20
1943-04-21
1943-05-12
1943-05-13
1943-05-14
1943-05-23
1943-05-24
1943-05-25
1943-05-26
1943-05-27
1943-05-28
1943-05-29
1943-05-30
1943-06-11
1943-06-12
1943-06-13
1943-06-24
1943-06-25
1943-06-26
1943-06-28
1943-06-29
1943-07-03
1943-07-04
1943-07-08
1943-07-09
1943-07-12
1943-07-13
1943-07-24
1943-07-25
1943-07-26
1943-07-27
1943-07-28
1943-07-29
1943-07-30
1943-08-23
1943-08-24
1944-10-29
1944-11-12
1944-12-08
1944-12-11
1944-12-15
1944-12-21
1944-12-22
1944-12-29
1944-12-30
1944-12-31
1945-01-01
1945-02-03
1945-02-06
1945-02-08
1945-02-14
1945-02-22
1945-02-24
1945-03-13
1945-03-14
1945-05-12
1945-06-25
1945-07-09
1945-08-07
1945-08-11
1945-08-20
1945-08-22
106 Squadron
14 OTU
1654 HCU
1661 HCU
1668 HCU
50 Squadron
617 Squadron
9 Squadron
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Botha
Cook’s tour
Dominie
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Manchester
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Balderton
RAF Bardney
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Evanton
RAF Madley
RAF Scampton
RAF Sturgate
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
Tirpitz
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cavalier, Reginald George. Album one
Description
An account of the resource
57 items. Photograph album showing pictures taken during Reginald George Cavalier's service as a squadron photographer. It includes material from his photographic course training in 1940, and service with 76 Squadron at RAF Middleton St George, and with 88 Squadron and 226 Squadron with 2 Group and 2nd Tactical Air Force at RAF West Raynham. The album also includes target photographs, images of Christmas parties, visits by VIPs including Eisenhower and the King, as well as captured German ordnance and aircraft in France, the Netherlands and Germany.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cavalier, RG
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cologne 15 August 1945
Description
An account of the resource
Photograph 1 is a low level oblique photograph of the cathedral.
Photograph 2 is a low level oblique photograph of a church, a bridge and the river Rhine.
Photograph 3 and 5 are low level oblique photographs of the main railway station.
Photograph 4 is a low level oblique photograph of a mostly destroyed part of the city,
Photograph 6 is a low level oblique photograph of severely damaged buildings.
Photograph 7 is a low level oblique photograph taken from an aircraft's gun turret. It shows the cathedral, the destroyed railway bridge and the main railway station.
Photograph 8 is of the badly damaged cathedral taken from ground level. Captioned 'Cologne. Germany. 15. Aug 1945.'
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-08-15
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Eight b/w photographs on an album page
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCavalierRG17010014
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated (cumulative polygon)
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-08-15
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
aerial photograph
bombing
Cook’s tour
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cavalier, Reginald George. Album one
Description
An account of the resource
57 items. Photograph album showing pictures taken during Reginald George Cavalier's service as a squadron photographer. It includes material from his photographic course training in 1940, and service with 76 Squadron at RAF Middleton St George, and with 88 Squadron and 226 Squadron with 2 Group and 2nd Tactical Air Force at RAF West Raynham. The album also includes target photographs, images of Christmas parties, visits by VIPs including Eisenhower and the King, as well as captured German ordnance and aircraft in France, the Netherlands and Germany.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cavalier, RG
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bomb damaged German cities
Description
An account of the resource
Photograph 1 is a street scene of damaged building with a girl cycling. Captioned 'Krefield, [sic] Germany 5 Aug 1945.'
Photograph 2 is a low level oblique photograph of a badly damaged city. In the distance are port cranes.
Photograph 3 and 5 are damaged industrial buildings, captioned 'Krupps, Essen, Germany, 1945.'
Photograph 4 shows bomb craters, a railway and some roads. Captioned 'Essen, Germany, 5. Aug 1945.'
Photograph 6 and 7 show bomb damage to buildings. Captioned 'Cleves, Germany, 5. Aug 1945.'
Photograph 7 is a low level oblique photograph of a heavily damaged industrial area. Several tall chimneys and a gasometer remain. Captioned 'Essen, Germany. 5. Aug 1945.'
Photograph 8 shows damage to a roadside. Behind is the Rhine. Two women are pushing bicycles. Captioned 'Emmerich, Germany. 5. Aug 1945.'
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-08-05
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Eight b/w photographs on an album page
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCavalierRG17010015
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocation impractical
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Emmerich
Germany--Essen
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Krefeld
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-08-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
aerial photograph
bombing
Cook’s tour
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/367/5793/PCavalierRG17010016.1.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cavalier, Reginald George. Album one
Description
An account of the resource
57 items. Photograph album showing pictures taken during Reginald George Cavalier's service as a squadron photographer. It includes material from his photographic course training in 1940, and service with 76 Squadron at RAF Middleton St George, and with 88 Squadron and 226 Squadron with 2 Group and 2nd Tactical Air Force at RAF West Raynham. The album also includes target photographs, images of Christmas parties, visits by VIPs including Eisenhower and the King, as well as captured German ordnance and aircraft in France, the Netherlands and Germany.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cavalier, RG
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bomb damage to Emmerich, Cologne and Weser
Description
An account of the resource
Photographs 1, 3 and 5 show damage to buildings on the riverside.
Photograph 2 is a low level oblique photograph of Cologne, with bomb damaged Hohenzollern Bridge.
Photograph 4 is a low level oblique photograph of Wesel with bomb damaged bridges.
Captioned 'Bridges across the Rhine, Nr Emmerich [sic], Germany'.
Photographs 6, 7, 8 and 9 are street scenes showing bomb damage. They are captioned 'Emmerich, Germany, 5 Aug 1945.'
Correction kindly provided by Ed Strohmaier and David Frampton od the Finding the location WW1 & WW2 Facebook Group.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-08-05
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Nine b/w photographs on an album page
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCavalierRG17010016
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending geolocation
Geolocated (cumulative polygon)
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Emmerich
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Rhine River
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-08-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
aerial photograph
bombing
Cook’s tour
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Targets and A&AEE Boscombe Down
Description
An account of the resource
Left page title 'Targets'
Top left - a note 'got to here'. Top right - an aerial oblique view of a city-scape with some large buildings and some damage visible. Captioned 'Essen' on the reverse 'Essen'.
Middle - an aerial oblique view of a town with open farmland beyond. Bottom right an aircraft propeller. Captioned 'Aachen'. On the reverse 'Aachen'.
Bottom - an aerial oblique view of a city with a large church centre left and large buildings in the centre. Captioned 'Antwerp'.
Right page title 'A&AEE Boscombe Down'.
Top left - head and shoulders view of two aircrew wearing battledress and side caps. Stephen Dawson is on the left. In the background part of an aircraft. Captioned 'E/O Paddy Riley'. Top right - head and shoulders view of two aircrew, one wearing battledress and the other a flying jacket. Stephen Dawson is on the right. In the background two men and part of an aircraft. Captioned 'Cliff Whatmore (bomb aimer)'. On the reverse a sketch map of location of the Savoy Hotel.
Centre - full length view of four aircrew in battledress or flying suits, all wearing side caps standing in front of an aircraft. Captioned 'Before dropping the first live "Tallboy large" - 22000 lbs'.
Bottom left - two aircrew viewed through the side cockpit window of a Lancaster. Below the cockpit a row of bomb symbols. Captioned 'Pilot Shaw, engineer Barrowman'. Bottom right - head and shoulders image of Stephen Dawson in shirt and tie. Captioned 'I.F.F. Photo for forged identity card for escape purposes'.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Left page a note and three b/w photographs oriented with tops towards centre of page. Right page five b/w photographs. All mounted on two album pages
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PDawsonSR16010390, PDawsonSR16010391, PDawsonSR16010392, PDawsonSR16010393, PDawsonSR16010394, PDawsonSR16010395, PDawsonSR16010396, PDawsonSR16010397, PDawsonSR16010398, PDawsonSR16010399, PDawsonSR16010400, PDawsonSR16010401
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Essen
Germany--Aachen
Belgium
Belgium--Antwerp
Great Britain
England--Wiltshire
England--Salisbury
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03
aerial photograph
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
Cook’s tour
evading
flight engineer
Grand Slam
Lancaster
pilot
RAF Boscombe Down
Tallboy
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/247/7275/LDorricottLW1230753v1.2.pdf
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dorricott, Leonard William
Leonard Dorricott
Len Dorricott
L W Dorricott
Description
An account of the resource
72 items. An oral history interview with Rosemary Dorricott about her husband Flying Officer Leonard William Dorricott DFM (1923-2014, 1230753, 1230708 Royal Air Force). Leonard Dorricott was a navigator with 460 and 576 Squadrons. He flew 34 operations including Operation Manna, Dodge and Exodus. He was one of the crew who flew in Lancaster AR-G -George, now preserved in the Australian War Memorial. He was a keen amateur photographer and the collection contains his photographs, logbook and papers. It also contains A Dorricott’s First World War Diary, and photographs of Leonard Dorricott’s log book being reunited with the Lancaster at the Australian War Memorial.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rosemary Dorricott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-07
2015-11-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dorricott, LW
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leonard Dorricott's observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Royal Canadian Air Force observer's and air gunner's flying log book for Sergeant Leonard Dorricott from 27 November 1942 to 21 January 1946. Detailing training schedule, instructional duties and operations flown. Trained in Miami, Florida and served at RAF Bobbington (aka RAF Halfpenny Green), RAF Whitchurch (aka RAF Tilstock), RAF Lindholme, RAF Breighton, RAF Bottesford, RAF Swinderby, RAF Binbrook and RAF Fiskerton. Aircraft flown were Anson, Commodore, Oxford, Harrow, Whitley, Halifax and Lancaster. He carried out a total of 32 operations on two tours with 460 and 576 Squadrons as a navigator on the following targets in Germany and Italy: Berlin, Bochum, Cologne, Cuxhaven, Dortmund, Duisburg, Dusseldorf, Gelsenkirchen, Hamburg, Krefeld, Leverkusen, Lutzkendorf, Mulheim, Mönchengladbach, Munich, Nordhausen, Nuremberg, Oberhausen, Plauen, Stuttgart, Turin and Wuppertal. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Henderson, Flight Lieutenant Strachan, Flying Officer Crofts and Flight Lieutenant Halnan. The operations are annotated and the log book includes maps and newspaper cuttings. It also includes Operation Manna, Exodus, Dodge and Cooks tours.
Creator
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Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
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One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LDorricottLW1230753v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1943-04-27
1943-04-28
1943-04-30
1943-05-01
1943-05-04
1943-05-05
1943-05-12
1943-05-13
1943-05-14
1943-05-23
1943-05-24
1943-06-11
1943-06-12
1943-06-13
1943-06-14
1943-06-15
1943-06-16
1943-06-17
1943-06-21
1943-06-22
1943-06-23
1943-06-24
1943-06-25
1943-06-26
1943-06-28
1943-06-29
1943-07-09
1943-07-10
1943-07-12
1943-07-13
1943-07-29
1943-07-30
1943-08-02
1943-08-03
1943-08-07
1943-08-08
1943-08-10
1943-08-11
1943-08-22
1943-08-23
1943-08-24
1943-08-27
1943-08-28
1943-08-30
1943-08-31
1943-09-01
1943-09-06
1943-09-07
1943-09-29
1943-10-02
1943-10-03
1943-10-07
1943-10-18
1945-04-03
1945-04-04
1945-04-05
1945-04-10
1945-04-11
1945-04-14
1945-05-02
1945-05-04
1945-05-11
1945-06-18
1945-07-09
1945-08-16
1945-08-20
1945-10-01
1945-10-10
1945-10-25
1945-10-26
1945-11-20
1945-11-26
1945-11-30
1945-12-08
1946-01-04
1946-01-14
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
United States
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Yorkshire
Florida--Miami
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Cuxhaven
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Krefeld
Germany--Leverkusen
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
Germany--Munich
Germany--Nordhausen (Thuringia)
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Oberhausen (Düsseldorf)
Germany--Plauen
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wettin
Germany--Wuppertal
Italy--Turin
Italy--Po River Valley
Florida
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
1656 HCU
1660 HCU
1668 HCU
460 Squadron
576 Squadron
61 Squadron
81 OTU
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Commodore
Cook’s tour
Halifax
Harrow
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
mine laying
navigator
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
RAF Binbrook
RAF Bottesford
RAF Breighton
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Halfpenny Green
RAF Lindholme
RAF Sturgate
RAF Swinderby
RAF Tilstock
RAF Waddington
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/376/7301/PHouriganM1804.1.jpg
710d60d65d0d6dc0948b05c33ec1e73c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/376/7301/AHouriganM180416.2.mp3
e72ccdc7eb2d57d68e893377766b8057
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hourigan, Margaret
Margaret Hourigan
M Hourigan
Description
An account of the resource
158 items. An oral history interview with Margaret Hourigan (1922 - 2023, 889775 Royal Air Force) and 156 target photographs taken by 50 and 61 Squadron aircraft during 1944. Margaret Hourigan served in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force as a plotter with Fighter Command before being posted to RAF Waddington and RAF Skellingthorpe with Bomber Command.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Margaret Hourigan and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-04-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hourigan,M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: So, a quick introduction, this is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. My name is Dan Ellin, today I am interviewing Margaret Hourigan nee Parsons it is the 16th of April 2018, we’re at the IBCC Digital Archive, Riseholme and also present in the room is David Hourigan. So, Margaret, could you start?
MH: Start yes.
DE: Start by telling us a little about your life?
MH: Yes, my childhood. If I start, I remember 1926, I remember the Great Strike. And my father was a miner when he came back from the War, the only job he could get, he was very badly wounded in the first World War. And I remember the, standing on the front step of our little house on Lowmoor Road and a man ran in toour front door. And the police outside, was it police or a soldier? On a black horse reared up and the man ran under the horse’s legs into our house and out the back door. And I don’t know what happened but police everywhere. I think the miners were striking, maybe they were being a bit angry, I don’t know. But my Dad was a safety man and so he was down the pit so it was OK. I remember that very plainly, I think it was 1926. I would have been four. And then, my Dad was very, very ill after that he got badly burnt at work. I remember [unclear] to think he was going to die. We were too little to know that. Anyway, he didn’t die, eventually he recovered. And I can’t remember moving but we moved to another house and my Nanna and Grandpa left and they had a fish and chip shop which we took over so my Dad worked there. He also worked at the pit, he also worked as a gardener for a doctor, and he also had his own allotment. So, he repaired our shoes and cut our hair when we had no money. And we were always well fed through the Depression years but I remember terrible scenes of children with no shoes in the snow. Awful things we saw at Kirkby. And I think then the miners didn’t get any help if they were injured at work. I think they went home and had to suffer. I can’t, I know we were all very Labour, when the Daily Herald paper came out we all thought we were in heaven, and all very Labour. I’m not now [chuckles] we were then. And we used to go to, when I was a little bit older, we used to go to Hucknall Air Display. There was a little aerodrome there, and they had Tiger Moths. I used to think ‘One day, God I’d love to fly them.’ And every year we visited until I went to work and then I decided that I would join up as soon as war was declared. Oh, belonged to the Labour Party League of Youth then and we were very hostile little bunch and when Mr Chamberlain came back from Berlin waving his bit of paper we all went mad and got very angry. And the Labour Party said they were going to disband us if we didn’t shut up. One of our trips was to go to the pictures and we sat down when they played God Save the Queen or King or we walked out according to our mood. Anyway, soon as war was declared whoosh we all joined up except one poor man who was a true conscientious objector. He never did join up and he had awful struggle, but he never gave in. We were all wimps, as soon as war was declared.
DE: What happened to him do you know?
MH: I don’t know. I know he was penalised and punished and treated like dirt. I don’t know. He didn’t die because one day David answered the telephone, somebody in Canberra saying ‘Anybody from Kirkby in Ashfield?’ And David rang up and said ‘Yes, my mother is.’ So he chatted I said ‘I remember his Dad he was a conchie.’ We never heard from him again. I mean I didn’t mean to be derogatory, I thought he was a wonderful man.
DE: Um. But you, you, you joined up?
MH: We joined the WAAFs yes. And I went to stay with my Auntie Margaret. She had a shop on Highson Green at Basford in Nottingham. And early hours of the morning I trotted off to Nottingham station. I went to St Pancras, how I got across London I don’t know. I’d never been before and I went to Kingsway and there was a male clerk there and a doctor. And they talked to me all morning and then the male clerk took me to the pictures at lunchtime. You know they had those newsreel places then, and I shut my eyes the whole way through because I thought if I can’t see, if my eyes aren’t good enough, they won’t take me I was sitting there [chuckles] [unclear] a right nutcase. Anyway, took me back to Kingsway afterwards and must have had a cup of tea or something. And the doctor said ‘You’ve got a heart of a lion.’ Always remember that.
DE: Um.
And then I had a medical, went home and I think it was very early January 1940 I got the call up. Freezing cold winter. I don’t know how I got to London, I suppose I did. And went to Watford, think it was Watford. And it was freezing cold there and a dirty, dirty billet the men had been in, and nobody had been in for months, anyway it was really dirty. And the water froze in the pipes, we couldn’t have a wash. The girls had water bottles that froze in bed. I woke up the next morning and I went to the sick bay, and I was covered in big red blobs. And the doctor said ‘Haven’t ever seen flea bites before?’ I hadn’t. Anyway, they must have gone away because we started marching up and down, up and down, and round and round, got our uniforms and then I was posted to Leighton Buzzard. I found I’d been enrolled as a clerk,special duties, so I must have talked well and got a very high classification. And went to Leighton Buzzard, started plotting. And then one day they said ‘You and two other girls are posted to Bawdsey Manor.’ It’s down near Felixstowe where Watson-Watt invented the radar. [unclear] arrived late at night, remember crossing water but it actually wasn’t an island, it was just a little inlet to get across to the house. And a man rowed the boat over and somewhere I met some soldiers. I don’t know how because they said would I ask the girls at the base if they would like to come to a dance? I thought they’d all be too posh to go but they ‘Oh yes.’ So, we went to the dance with the sailors, the soldiers and it was a huge house. Lots of rooms, lots of cockroaches. And in the morning I woke up and they had kedgeree for breakfast. I’d never seen it before. I was just used to cornflakes or porridge and they had this great big thing of kedgeree. Anyway, the Indian educated girls all loved it. A lot of girls had been brought up by their families living in India, they thought it was wonderful, I didn’t. Anyway, we started on the radar and we had a green screen, like a television screen, with a green line wavering line that went across it really quickly. And echoes, a big echo would be an aeroplane, and wiggle, wiggle so many in the group. I couldn’t do it, I hated it, made me feel sick. Anyway, I persisted and the other girls just had a little green handle, they could turn it and illuminate the echo and say ‘Twelve plus’ and ‘twenty thousand feet.’ I could not do it. So, I went to the WAAF officer in the end and I said ‘I hate it, I can’t do it.’ And there was a man in the office with her. He said. And she said ‘Yes, yes.’ I couldn’t go, he thought I knew too much. Anyway, outside was the big pylons, you know?
DE: Um.
MH: And one interesting day before I left we were walking, a WAAF and I, were walking along the edge of green grass and the Channel was here in front of us. And I could see ships out at sea and big black birds flying all round it. And I thought they were big huge seagulls. And as we were walking along we saw the Coastguard. He was dancing up and down, waving his arms at us. We thought ‘Oh, he’s gone mad.’ And when we caught up with him, just as we caught up with him, a low flying German aeroplane went over. It would only be a hundred feet, we could see the pilot laughing. And he said ‘I was trying to warn you.’ Well where could we go? Nowhere to lie down and hide. Anyway, he was laughing. The German pilot must have thought it was a bit of a joke. We were both in uniform.
DE: Um
MH: Anyway, he flew inland for a little while and he came out further down the coast, we could still see him. He wasn’t laughing when he came back out. And he went back. The black birds were the first attack on a convoy.
DE: I see.
MH: So that was that. Nearly written off before I started. And then I went to Fighter Command Headquarters at Bentley Priory in the ops room there, started plotting.
DE: And what was that like?
MH: Huge, and down, down, down underground. We lived in huts opposite and I remember I Winston Churchill coming in. I remember King George coming in, looking down on the plots. And must have started bombing. I remember Dunkirk about that time. I asked, anyway I got a bit lonely, the girls were all very posh shall we say. One girl’s father signed the pound note, I know that. If you told me who it was I’d tell you that was so but I can’t remember. But I know her father was high in the Government. They all came along with their gold braid to pick their daughters up in big cars and here’s poor little me from Kirkby. I had nobody to pick me up. And I decided to have my photograph taken. So, I went along to this photographer and I had a black velvet dress I remember and I said ‘Would you take it with me smoking a cigarette?’ He said ‘Indeed I won’t!’ I thought I’d be a film star. He said ‘Indeed I won’t!’ He did a lovely ‘photo. Anyway, I asked to go to 12 Group, I went to 12 Group headquarters then in Hucknall and I stayed there all through the Battle of Britain and the night bombing. I was plotting the night Coventry was bombed and there were so many plots on the table but we couldn’t relieve each other. We used to take time off, two people standing beside each other plotting and grabbing plots off. You plotted five minutes red, five minutes yellow and five minutes blue. Then you snatched the red off and started plotting red again and they knew the time upstairs, they could tell how old the plot was. And when they were over land the Observer Corps did all the plots. Out at sea we got the plots from the radar.
DE: Um.
MH: And the men who were plotting that night from Coventry, not one of the them left their posts. All of their houses were bombed, not all badly but all stayed with us. Thought that was rather wonderful. Didn’t get much praise at all really when they talk about the war now nobody remembers the Observer Corps do they?
DE: No, my grandfather was in the Observer Corps.
MH: Was he?
DE: How did, how did it feel then seeing, watching the plots of the German aircraft coming in?
MH: We were too damn busy to bother. We wrote a poem about it. I wrote it down somewhere I know. ‘A bloody raids coming roaring in, kicking up a bloody din. Who can spot their bloody game? Bloody seven, two and four, these and bloody thousands more. Across the bloody coast they came, bloody Jones is up above , he a bloody man we’d love. No bloody smoking says the cad, enough to drive us bloody mad.’ Because we knitted or sewed or read but the men got so bored they cracked up.
DE: Um.
MH: In the end, when we started we’d be half and half. By this time, this time, they’d might be two men left who were C3, they couldn’t go anywhere else.
DE: Right.
MH: So then after all that bombing I had trouble with varicose veins and I was going to hospital, hilarious story. Going to hospital for treatment. And one day I woke up, I didn’t know, somebody knocked on the door, I’d stripped my nightgown off, standing there stark naked and a big policeman walked in the door. And I stood there [exclamation noise], and I stood there and he shut the door and went out. I still stood there. And he came in again and I hadn’t moved. And I ran. He said ‘I’d never seen anything as pretty in all my life as your little bum waddling down the hall.’ He didn’t know it was me but I went to get the bus to go and have my injections for my varicose veins and he was there and I cut him dead. He said ‘I knew then it was you.’ Otherwise he didn’t. So that was all over the camp. ‘A WAAF’s been caught in the nude.’ And it was me. He said ‘Why didn’t you put some clothes on?’ I said ‘I couldn’t think.’ Anyway, Wing Commander Woods was the CO there and he said ‘Why don’t you put in for Bomber Command, there’s a sergeant’s job going there?’ So, I did and took me to Grantham for the interview and I marched in, polished up to the hilt, [unclear]into the hall, turned round and they were sitting at the table there. Whizzed round, slipped on my bum. And I tried to carry on, I couldn’t. Anyway, we all started laughing then that was OK, we were all at ease. And I got accepted and I was posted to Swinderby and then I went to Waddington. And then 44 Squadron left Waddington, the Rhodesians. We had no squadron there we had put in concrete runways. I don’t know why they keep saying that there were squadrons there, there weren’t. They put in a concrete runway.
DE: Yeah it was closed for a while.
MH: It was closed for quite a while.
DE: We interviewed a chap who was there when they were putting the runways in.
MH: Yeah, yeah. We had Irish labourers come in. They were awful, we hated them. I damn near got raped one night. They were so drunk luckily they couldn’t catch me. But we had to walk home from Waddington. I was with an Aussie sergeant, Bill. That’s all I know. And we walked up the hill, you know you get to the top of the hill? All the nice houses were. Over the top was flat. That side’s green,this side’s airfield. And we heard these men saying ‘No, no, no you hold her, you hold him and I’ll have her. No, no, no, no, you hold him and I’ll have her.’ I thought ‘What’d they say?’ And I said to Bill ‘There going to rape me!’ and as we were passing by, I don’t know if it was an ack ack army unit but there was a five barred gate and a shed. I knew there were soldiers in there, and I put my hand on top of that gate and I cleared it. And I ran into the hut, the men were all in the ‘jamas, laughing and talking, and I said ‘Those men are going to rape me.’ And a couple of them got dressed and then Bill arrived. He said ‘I couldn’t get over the gate.’ But I cleared it. Olympic runner honestly. Anyway, they took us back to camp and that was that. But we had lots of trouble with the Irish then, always drunk, always fighting. Anyway, I trained as a watchkeeper and then sometimes I went to Bardney, sometimes I stayed I went to Skellingthorpe. The first time I was at Skellingthorpe I was under flying control, little tiny ops room. All the room was full of men. Officers, group captains everybody. And the raid was coming through on my little telephone . And I never learnt French at school and the route was coming through in French. I couldn’t do it. I know what, one was [unclear]. On one of those photos we’ve taken upstairs. I can remember that. Anyway, I struggled and did it and you know your degrees, I put in sixty three degrees and all that. And I made, I did it alright. Anyway Flight Lieutenant Williams said ‘You did a good job Maggie.’ He helped me, sorted it all out. But that was my initiation Eventually, we moved to a big ops room at the Doddington end of Skellingthorpe and had a great big table in the middle. I had a little office and Squadron Leader Quinn was at that end in his little office. He was a station navigation officer. And intelligence there in another little room. Daddy, Squadron Leader Dodd, we called him ‘Daddy Dodd’ ‘cause he was in his thirties. Daddy Williams was in his twenties and I know Daddy Quinn was twenty-nine. We thought he was old. And I worked there from then on. I remember a Lanc’ crashing at the end of the runway and blowing a great big hole and all the windows in Lincoln High Street were broken. And this air gunner was still sitting on the hole. He must have been mad, never, ever heard of him again.
DE: Um.
MH: But that was, we used to go to the end of the runway and watch the boys go. Not so much coming back ‘cause they came back early in the morning. But I’d walk round the perimeter track and they’d be lying by the aircraft on a nice summers day waiting to take off. I never dared say ‘Good luck or God bless you.’ Thought they’d think I was putting a jinx on them, but I wanted to say something, but I daren’t, never did.
DE: Um.
MH: But in the, when we went to lunch mess at lunchtime they’d all say ‘What’s the petrol like Mag?’ It worked out, you know long or short trip. Or ‘What’s the bomb load?’ they’d know if that was a big one that was a short trip. Or a little one was a long trip. And they knew I knew. I knew they knew I knew but I couldn’t say anything to them. And we had Group Captain Jefferson there who was a very, very posh gentleman. It was all ‘Do, do, do,do you think Maggie. Do you think you could?’ I can’t tell you what he said, it’s too rude. But he always sat with me at night when they were off flying and Daddy Dodd used to go to Lincoln and stay at the hotel with his wife and we had a code that I had to tell him, if somebody was coming back early or something like that. He’d ring me and say, I can’t remember what the code was but ‘Yes, come back’ or ‘No, you don’t need to.’
DE: Right.
MH: We had a great rapport. And that’s pretty well it I think. I often went to Bardney and worked there. And I remember meeting the nicest man I’ve ever met in my life. A Flight Lieutenant Dennis Irving. He was a very Catholic gentleman who went to mass, said the rosary, prayed. Everybody knew, we all knew and yet he wasn’t a bit shy about it. Was a real Christian gentleman. And the funny thing was they all had to wear civilian clothes when they went home to Ireland. I worked with a WAAF who had to go home in civvies. And yet when my husband went in Ireland he said that he had to wear civvies there were U boat men in the pubs in full uniform. They weren’t happy.
DE: No, I can imagine.
MH: Anyway, I pretty well went along like that was escorted to station dances and pictures. I remember once going to the pictures, Casablanca. We all sang ‘You must remember this.’ The whole theatre was singing and really the rapport, you can’t imagine and the friendship. It was just something.
DE: Um.
MH: Sometimes I’d go to a meal and they’d be one sergeant sitting there, I can remember him. And I thought ‘I should talk to you.’ But how do you talk to a stranger who’s looking a bit grumpy? Anyway, I thought you’re not going to come back. And he didn’t. Sometimes things happen like that. I remember being madly in love with a boy. And I was hanging around the flying control and in the end the girls said ‘For God’s sake Maggie, clear off.’ [unclear] I had to go home. Anyway, he did his tour and went back to Australia. That was that. He was killed afterwards anyway. And one day Daddy Quinn said to me ‘Maggie, I’ve got good news for you. Mentioned in dispatches.’
DE: You were mentioned in dispatches?
MH: Um.
DE: What was that for?
MH: I suppose because I was a good girl, did my work well. I lost the citation, I’ve got the box, the packet that it came in but my son that went to America took everything, I never got it back. I’ve got the envelope and I’ve got the thing it came with.
DE: Right.
MH: It said.
DE: Well we could probably look it up and find it [unclear].
MH: That’s what came with it. You can’t look it up, it’s all gone.
DE: No, we can look it up in the Gazette. It says it’s dated the first of January 1946.
MH: [Rustling of paper] What this is? That’s what the citation was with.
DE: Yes.
MH: Yes, they said you could look at the what’s its name? The magazine.
DE: The Gazette?
MH: Yes, the Gazette. It’ll be in there. That’s what we did, a plotter.
DE: Yes. So what was your job like?
MH: In the operations room?
DE: In the watch office. What was your job in the watch office?
MH: Oh the – the ‘phone would ring in the morning. We had to get to work at nine o’clock. I was always late. And the ‘phone would ring and a voice would say ‘Ops on tonight, maximum effort.’ Or they’d say ‘Nothing on tonight.’ Soon as they said ops were on I rang the group captain and I rang both wing commanders from the squadrons and then flight commanders and then the bombing leader and engineer officer, flying control, intelligence. And they all started their work then and then we had teleprinters bringing all the information later on in the war so Groupie Jefferson used to come in and read it and the route and Squadron Leader Quinn would come in. He’d plan the route from that we were going to fly. Height, target. Then I had to look up the colours of the day and they had to fire those across the coastal path the naval ship or whatever when they were coming in.
DE: Um.
MH: And eventually they’d have to announce they briefing times and would have to announce the meal times. And then I would go off duty at five, five thirty. Would go down to the runway then and watch them going. And then one time I went off in the morning and it was terribly misty like it’s been here for the last week. Very low cloud. And Jock McPherson was in the control in his little black and white van at the end of the runway firing a Very cartridge. I said ‘Can I have one?’ He gave me one, we were doing one each. And fire it and the Lancaster would come out of the mist. Over the waafery, down to the end of the runway. If it had been three foot short we would have been killed. But nobody did they all landed, bang on the runway.
DE: Wow.
MH: I think they had a bomb load on too, I think they were coming back with a bomb load.
DE: Crikey.
MH: Anyway, they were hilarious things.
DE: Ah ha.
MH: Another time we were sleeping naked outside. There was a little garden, I think it was an officer’s garden, somebody lived there. A nice little garden of roses. We used to go out then take our clothes off and a bit of low flying went on [chuckles]. Anyway that was that I think. When the invasion was on that night I went out to the toilet, about five o’clock in the morning, or six. It was just turning light. The sky was black with aircraft. Couldn’t, could not believe so many aircraft and I thought ‘I’ll remember this as long as I live.’ Which I have.
DE: Did you know what it was then when you saw?
MH: Well, I knew when I saw it what it was. I didn’t know, didn’t know it was on until then. But we had two accidents. Another time a bomb went off in the dispersal. All of the Lancs were loaded and windows again went in the High Street. But the people were lovely to us. One of the girls that, a big store, don’t know what it was. Just above the Stonebow she always gave me silk stockings. They were very hard to get.
DE: Um.
MH: Um. And then one day the war was over. And 50 and 61 just disappeared. Groupie Jefferson just disappeared and a Group Captain Forbes came. And he was a very nice man, we always thought about him. He’d come back from Japan and his wife was interned. We could never work out how that happened, not Japan, Singapore.
DE: Um.
MH: Anyway, 463 came and they were being briefed to bring the prisoners back from Europe. And I was on, I went early and WAAF said ‘’I knew you’d come early tonight when they were here.’ All the officers were in the ops room being briefed. And I saw this blonde one leaning on the table at the back. I thought ‘Oh, he looks alright.’ I can’t remember him coming up to me but he must have ‘cause I went out with him that night and I married him. (chuckles). Two months later I married him and went to Australia.
DE: OK. Well why not?
MH: Um. It’s silly. Silly, silly, silly. I didn’t know if he had a job, didn’t know if he was a layabout or what. I mean they were all handsome in uniform, I never looked further than that. Anyway he went to uni, the Government paid for them all to go to uni if they wanted to and they’d matriculated, so he did. Did an economics degree and a commerce and he worked in the Government all his life. And I got presented to the Queen Mother when she came and had a good life.
DE: So, you met him after D-Day?
MH: After the war was over.
DE: Yeah.
MH: He was on 463 Squadron.
DE: And did you marry him in the UK?
MH: Yes I did.
DE: When did you both go to Australia?
MH: He went back that Christmas. We married in October, October the 30th He went back to Australia then Christmas and I went back the next August on the Orbita.
DE: What was that like?
MH: They divided all the first-class cabins for in about six. And there was hardly any water to wash yourselves. We were taking all our clothes off and going standing in a draughty doorway it was so hot. And when we were going down Suez Canal we were passing all the British ships coming home with all the troops. And they were ‘Where are you going?’ and the Aussies were shouting ‘We’re going to Australia, we’ve got all the girls.’ And the Englishmen ‘ Have they really got all the girls?’ We felt miserable then. The Aussies were awful. When we got to Port Said the people came along the boat, beside the boat, hauling up handbags and things for us to buy.
DE: Um.
MH: And the Aussies put hoses on them.
DE: Right.
MH: I know my husband said when he arrived back in Australia all the big dignitaries came out to meet the ships coming in and cheering the boys. My husband always called them ‘The Cheer Company’, cheer you when you go and cheer you when you come back. They put the hoses on them as well. And anyway then I had a horrible time. My mother in law hated, me she was Irish and blamed me for all the stuff going on in Ireland. I’d never heard of it. We were never taught at school anything about that.
DE: Um. So where did you live in Australia?
MH: We lived in Enfield, it’s not a terribly good area really. But they lived there, my mother in law lived there with her second husband. My husband’s father came back from the first World War with a, what did he have? Military Medal, and I think he was a bit shell shocked. He cleared off and left his family and never, ever heard what happened to him again.
DE: Um.
MH: Anyway, we’ve got his medal and he got a write up on. You know you can look it up on David’s mobile and he’s got all his citation.
DE: Yes. Never, ever heard from him again. Shame wasn’t it?
DE: Um.
MH: They had lovely grandchildren. I had eight children, three sets of twins, and two single girls. David’s a twin. I’ve lost three.
DE: Oh dear.
MH: Um. Anyway, that’s that. I think that’s told you everything.
DE: If it’s OK I’ll ask a couple more questions?
MH: Yes.
DE: What did your husband do after the war in Australia?
MH: He was an, he started off as an auditor and then he worked for the Leader of the Opposition who was a Labour man. Mr O’Halloran Giles, he worked for him. And then Mr O’Halloran-Giles.
DH: Mr O’Halloran?
MH: Um? O’Halloran Giles. Mick O’Halloran that’s right. And then he died and Frank Walsh was the second one. My husband worked for him and they were elected into office but my husband couldn’t go with him the Public Service wouldn’t let him transfer to the Premier’s office. So he stayed in the Public Works Committee and he worked for them for thirty odd years.
DE: Right, OK. Did you have a job?
MH: No.
DE: No.?
MH: Too busy. I beg your pardon I did have a job when I first went to Australia. My mother in law insisted that I went to work. And I was pregnant with twins, sick as a dog, morning sickness. And I went to work at [Myle?] Emporium, which was a bit like [TJ’s?] sort of place, and they were so sorry for me they put me in bed every day. They said I was the worst saleswoman they’d ever had. How could I go from my job to that?
DE: Quite.
MH: And [Lloyd?] used to meet me at the railway station on his way home and take me home. I couldn’t face his mother. And they drank and swore and called all the English ’Pommies bastards.’ And it was after the Bodyline cricket series when Ray Larwood was there, who was born, lived near where I lived in Nottinghamshire.
DE: Um.
MH: And were all Bodyline killers. She used to go on about it. Anyway that was that, eventually they left and sold us the house and left. We could never afford to move anywhere else then ‘cause all the children went to private schools. We had some nuns opposite our house. I had a knock on the door one day and they said ‘Can David and Diane come to school?’ I thought ‘Go to school with nuns, no.’ I said ‘No, we’re moving.’ Couldn’t think of anything else to say. I thought afterwards said to my husband ‘They looked, had nice faces.’ ‘Cause he was a Catholic, I didn’t know. Anyway they knew and anyway I went and said ‘Yes, they can come.’
DE: Um.
MH: They started off. And David and Diane went to school. Sister [unclear] had about a hundred children didn’t she David? All in one room. When I went there [hissing noise] they all had their front teeth missing. ‘Mrs Hourigan’s here, Mrs Hourigan’s here.’ Anyway I heard them talking one day and teaching them saying about Jesus and Jesus was God when he came to earth. And I said ‘What’s she saying? Jesus wasn’t God.’ So I said to her ‘Don’t agree with what you’re saying.’ So she said ‘Well the mother sets the religion, if you don’t like it.’ She said ‘Have to give it up, but.’ She said ‘Before you do that go for a retreat,’ I went for a retreat at Canberra College and I fell in love with it. What they were telling me, and the singing and the hymns and the incense. I was in heaven and I converted in 1954.
DE: Right, OK.
MH: Never regretted it. And with losing three children I can tell you I needed my faith.
DE: Um.
MH: David’s my right hand man. And when I came here for this reunion I had these photographs to give all these years. I’ve rung Bomber Command time and time again in London and they took a message once and I said that bombing photos and no idea, absolutely no idea what I was saying and then it’d only be a couple of months ago I rang my daughter who lived in Dorset died and my other daughter moved into her house. And I was telling Elizabeth and she said ‘Mum I’ll fix it.’ So she rang and she got Nicky Barr, is it Nicky Barr? Who said ‘I’m thrilled, thrilled, thrilled. We’re opening the memorial.’ She said ‘I’d love your Mum to come.’ So Nicky rang Annette who’s done the Australian contingent and Annette rang me and said ‘Do you want to come with us?’ I said ‘Oh, I’d give my right arm to come with you.’ So I did. And then when we were at? We were David, where I fell in love again?
DH: Coningsby.
MH: Coningsby. I saw the Millikin name on the wall. I said ‘I knew a Millikin.’ And Wing Commander Millikin’s in 61, 619 now.
DE: Ah ha
MH: And he said ‘You knew my, that would have been my grandfather.’
DE: Wow.
MH: He hardly believed me at first but when I told him things I knew about his grandfather he knew I was genuine. And he said ‘Did my grandfather kiss you?’ I said ‘I wish he would, he didn’t, he was married.’
DE: Well.
MH: But anyway he was really happy. And he was a lovely man his grandfather was. A happy one like this one, happy and kind.
DE: Um.
MH: We had all those events, I could tell you hundreds truly, things come back to me. I’m lying in bed at night, cor. Is the lake still at Skellingthorpe?
DE: Um, I’m not sure. Skellingthorpe has changed an awful lot because –
MH: I know it’s a town, village now.
DE: It was built on virtually all of the, all of the old RAF station yeah.
MH: I know the school’s Lancaster school isn’t it?
DE: Um.
MH: Where the watch office was they said, and the waafery was in the rookery.
DE: Oh right, yes. What was the waafery like?
MH: Oh, a few huts. I had to walk across an empty block to get in have a bath. Get your clothes off. You can imagine in the middle of winter going to have a bath?
DE: Did they have plugs in the baths?
MH: No, took your own plug. We found that everywhere we travelled, it all went to Ireland, there was never a plug in the bath.
DE: So what did you do?
MH: Put a plastic bag over it.
DE: Aha.
MH: And that sucks in stops the water flowing away. There was plenty of hot water.
DE: But it was a long walk from the?
MH: Not really a long walk, a cold walk.
DE: Cold?
MH: And being an NCO I had a room at the end of the hut. So all the girls were there, open beds, but I had a little private room. And a little stove and I used to fill it with flowers, from the. What’s those flowers David?
DH: Cinerarias??
MH: No, those big bushes, rhododendrons. Rhododendrons.
DH: Rhododendrons.
MH: Yeah.
DE: OK. Did you have any trouble with the girls in the rest of the hut?
MH: Never, never, no. One girl surprised us. She was sitting knitting baby clothes and suddenly they said ‘She’s gone.’ We didn’t know. Was pregnant. She’d gone. We had, some of the English airman used to be a bit snobby. When the Aussies came and the Rhodesians they were really, and the Canadians, they were really you know, didn’t care whether you were a sergeant or what. They were officers there agreeable but some of the British. One man I met, and he used to come in the ops room. They all came in the ops room at night when ops weren’t on and I had a kettle and a toaster and the NAAFI used to send me over a big lump of butter and a lot of bread and make toast. And anybody would turn up and have a slice of toast and a cup of something. And this man used to, flight lieutenant somebody or other, used to come and have a cup of tea and toast with me and Bill. Familiar yes, ‘Maggie fa, fa, fa’ and a couple of days later I went into town and I was walking up towards the Stonebow I remember on the right hand side. Met him with this civilian woman and of course I chatted to him like I had in the ops room the night before and he just cut me as dead as dead. I thought ‘You pig.’ The next time he came for cups of tea I tell you he didn’t get it. Hung his head. I thought ‘Don’t bother coming here.’
DE: I can’t say I blame you, that’s –
MH: No, no. But I found that, and they used to call the WAAF’s ‘camp bikes’ or ‘officer’s ground sheets’ was the pet one.
DE: Do you think that was justified or?
MH: No, [emphatic] no, no, no. When I look back and think how hard the girls worked. The MTT, the girls in the mess, and the equipment. And my friend used to drive the bomb trolley and people in the office, and teleprinters, telephone exchange, intelligence, meterology. We all worked so hard and we all believed we were shortening the war.
DE: Um.
MH: I never heard anybody say anything else. And David will laugh. I meant to tell you this story about David’s friend. When they were about eighteen, they were at Uni. And the man remembers to this day, he’s a professor now. Monash University but he knows Mrs Hourigan was angry with him. He said, what was it we were talking about? Bomber Command, we talk about Bomber Command the whole time my husband and I when we got back. We lived what had happened. And we were talking. And he said ‘Oh, they all went off.’ He said ‘They thought kill a few Germans tonight.’ And thought that of Bomber Command, and I said ‘Nothing of the kind.’ And David saw him recently and he said ‘Your mother still remembers then does she?’ He said ‘Yes, she does.’ I’ll never forget, I was so upset, so angry. And when I was in hospital last year the doctor said to me ‘I’ve heard that when they woke up in the morning they threw a dart at the wall. Wherever the dart landed they said ‘That’s where we’ll bomb tonight.’ I said ‘Nothing could be further from the truth.’
DE: So do you think in Australia Bomber Command has got an odd sort of reputation?
MH: I think it, I thought it was general because here for a long time we were wanted for being war criminals weren’t we?
DE: Um. Some people think that yeah. I just wondered if you thought it was different in Australia because you know I think.
MH: I think in Australia a lot of the people thought that the Bomber Command boys had been having a good time in England and they were being bombed by the Japanese. And when they went back it was ‘Oh you’ve been having a good time overseas, we’ve been suffering the Japanese.’ In fact when the War was over the squadrons were ordered to come back to fight Japan.
DE: Um.
MH: Only lucky that the Americans dropped the atomic bomb in August or they’d all have been coming back for that.
DE: Um.
MH: But I don’t think that they understood the War ‘cause they hadn’t been in it. ‘Cause when we’re lying in bed hearing the doodle bugs going round, buzz, buzz, buzz, and then the engine stop you think ‘Oh God, where’s it going to land?’ They had none of that.
DE: Quite, no.
MH: I remember being in Nottingham one night when Nottingham was bombed and I was with my Auntie. And she was a little way out of Nottingham and remember seeing all the incendiaries in the fields. We could see the bombs going down. And one night, we used to hitch, when we were in Fighter Command, we used to hitch hike to London on our days off and one night I remember being on top of a building and mines were coming down on parachutes. How I got up there I don’t know and the men were running around. What do you call them? Air raid wardens were running around with buckets and hoses and we’re up there laughing and dancing about, the WAAF’s and me. We never were in any danger ever when we were in uniform. Except those Irish men. Never forget them. But nowhere else, we went in, we were wandering around looking for a pub we could get a drink. [unclear] some places I can tell you wouldn’t go in. We’d open the front door awful, people with black eyes and black and they’d just look up, we backed out again. I don’t know what sort of den on iniquity it was, didn’t even know where we were.
DE: Um.
MH: But we’d hitch. And when we met the Canadians we cut all our buttons off and swapped with them. We came back to Nottingham without a button on our uniform. And they went off without buttons on theirs. I’ve still got Canadian buttons on mine somewhere. Don’t know where it is, my uniform is now. Think Michael took it to America
DE: Aha.
MH: So, that’s it I think.
DE: Okey dokey
MH: Are you happy with that?
DE: I’m absolutely very, very much so. I’m just having a look to see if I’ve got any questions I wanted to ask. Just going right back to the very start when you joined the.
MH: Um. WAAF’s.
DE: Did you, did you volunteer or were you?
MH: I volunteered.
DE: Why did you choose the WAAF’s? Why did you volunteer?
MH: I liked the air force. I used to read the Biggles books when I was a little girl.
DE: Um.
MH: You know Biggles and his second pilot was Algy and his engineer was Ginger, and I lived those books. And I just wanted to join the air force, thought it was wonderful.
DE: I was just wondering how volunteering during the war sort of fitted in with your early political beliefs?
MH: Forgot all about them. Voted Liberal ever since I came out, out to Australia. No, I remember in Hucknall a man, some officer I’ve forgotten who it was, he used to pick us all up, bit of a ratbag I don’t know. And he took us, this bunch of WAAF’s up to his house, he was filling us with gin I remember that, we were all merry. And he was asking us questions about politics and we were slamming the government, slamming this and that and he couldn’t believe his good fortune. We were telling him everything that was going to happen after the war. What we were going to do, burn the place down I think and start again. And then the next night he asked us to go back to his house again, we didn’t have any gin, he had another man there. He said ‘Tell him what you told me last night.’ Of course, we were all dumb, needed a gin to get us going again. He was very disappointed. We wouldn’t be wound up.
DE: Who do you think the man was?
MH: I don’t know who he was, he was some somebody, some politician I bet you. But when my husband worked for the Labour Party I was happy with them. Then we had a man who was a bit nasty, but he was openly gay and he was a nasty man as well. Had nasty habits and my husband had to work with him. Some of the time he really didn’t like him and I sort of went a bit off the Labour Party. And then I changed my mind.
DE: OK.
MH: And I thought in Australia the unions were running the show and my daughter’s husband, married a sailor, who was in Vietnam and the waterside workers wouldn’t ship any arms or food or anything over, and that put me off.
DE: Aha. OK.
MH: And one of the men asked me the other day, on one of the interviews what I thought about when people died. I didn’t always react you know, you saw missing, missing, missing, missing, missing. I know they were all terribly upset when Dambusters went and Henry Maudsley was a man from 50 Squadron who everybody loved. Oxford Blue and very educated. Lovely young man. And when we went into the chapel in Lincoln the candlesticks and crucifix are dedicated to Henry Maudsley, supplied by his family. So yesterday we put a poppy on him on the memorial. I forgot should have done one for Guy Gibson, I couldn’t think. ‘Cause I didn’t lose anybody.
DE: You didn’t?
MH: No.
DE: No.
MH: Not personally. But it was hard, I mean you knew that they’d been shot down. You knew the worry that they were going to be shot down. And some of them you looked at them and you knew they were going to get it ‘cause they were a bit –
DE: Bit shaky?
MH: They had a twitch or. And you always thought ‘Oh they’re going to cop it.’ And they did. And the mad ones, the ones you thought ‘You’re going to die.’ They survived ‘cause they were realistic, ‘We can’t possibly live.’ So.
DE: Um. Did anyone ever talk about lack of moral fibre?
MH: One man, one man, lack of moral fibre. It was awful. Ripped everything off him, all his ensignia, in front of the whole camp. I was reading about Group Captain Cheshire yesterday on David’s mobile. I saw ‘Group Captain Cheshire – Unknown Story.’ And read about him and he said with lack of moral fibre he had to be very strict because it could taint the whole lot of them.
DE: Um.
MH: He said he was very strict with it.
DE: So did you, did you see that actually happen with people having their?
MH: It did happen. It did happen.
DE: Where was that? Can you remember?
MH: Oh, I think it was at Skellingthorpe we had one. But they got sent away quickly because they’d taint everybody else. I know my husband said when he was flying his bomb aimer said ‘I can’t press the tit, I can’t press the tit!’ My husband said ‘You’ll faffing well press the tit or you’ll go with ‘em!’
DE: Your husband was a pilot?
MH: Yeah.
DE: How many ops did he do?
MH: About fifteen. He only came at the end of the war, he was only eighteen in 1942. I was two years older than him.
DE: Um.
MH: Never let me forget it. I was a cradle snatcher. [chuckles] But they looked so old the Bomber Command men, they all had grey faces. And there hair seemed to get colourless somehow they looked. Fighter pilots always looked gay and young and laughing. I know in the Battle of Britain I bet they didn’t but otherwise they were always gay and young. But the Bomber Command pilots always looked old.
DE: Why was that do you think?
MH: I don’t, because in the morning they’d know, ‘I might die tonight.’ And friends, people all around them were dying and I think that they knew how dicey their life was. And they’d live in a hut and come home and half the beds would be empty.
DE: Um.
MH: And sometimes when they took off in the morning they’d go to Germany and come back at say midnight and they’d be an intruder in the circuit. And one time was dropping bombs on the Waddington bomb dump. We thought it was hilarious at Skellingthorpe, bombing Waddington. They had Air Commodore Hesketh, we hated him. And he was a very bossy man, all his gold braid. And we didn’t have any of that at Skelly, only had the Groupie. They didn’t go around polishing boots and looking and making a parade and all like they did at Waddington.
DE: So do you think there was a difference between the permanent stations and the wartime stations?
MH: Yeah, I reckon. Well the Aussies were very casual. I remember one raid when the war began they handed, not when war began, when the D-Day began they handed the air force over to the army. It was the silliest thing they ever did. The army would call up, ‘Come and bomb this.’ And they’d get the bombs on the ‘plane. ‘No, don’t come now, we don’t need you.’ And then ‘Come and bomb this.’ They’d all get ready again, ‘No, don’t come we don’t need you.’
DE: Um.
MH: And in the end they said ‘Either take us off or the bombs sink in the ground.’ Anyway one time they said ‘We don’t need you, stand down but don’t leave the station.’ Course all the Skellingthorpe mob stayed around but the Waddington mob all shot into Lincoln. And within half an hour they called ops on again. And the police and SP’s were racing around trying to round the Aussies out of the pubs. We were all ready but they, they were very undisciplined like that.
DE: What was Lincoln like? Did you go out in Lincoln?
MH: Oh, incredible. At night when the bombers had taken off you just heard this roar, you can’t imagine. Well we had thirty six take off at Skelly, there were thirty six at Waddington, sixteen or seventeen at Bardney and Scampton and Woodhall Spa and East Kirkby all of them. All take off, all go over. They used to meet at Beachy Head and, or Reading sometimes and amalgamate there and then start flying out to Holland. But they’d just all roar over. Massive noise.
DE: Um. And of course working where you did you knew before they did where they were going?
MH: Absolutely. And when they did the Berlin run, I think it was 1944, they went to Berlin about five nights in a row. And Nuremburg was another one, they lost about ninety ‘planes that night. None of them liked going up the Ruhr, Cologne or. Some of them, I know they had fish names for targets and we had a [unclear] ‘phone scrambled if you wanted to talk privately you pressed the scrambler.
DE: Yes.
MH: I remember Air Commodore Hesketh rang one day. I didn’t know it was him. I picked up the ‘phone, I said ‘Hello, hello, hello.’ [loudly] ‘Air Commodore Hesketh here.’ ‘Oh,[long drawn in breath] beg your pardon sir .’ ‘I want Group Captain Jefferson.’ I suppose he said to Groupie Jefferson ‘She’s a right one in there.’ He would have defended me. I know he would. But we had a lot of fun, used to laugh a lot. And I never, ever worked out the bomb load. I could not do it.
DE: OK.
MH: I had to have one cookie, one thousand pounder, twelve SPC’s of incendiaries. And each Lancaster carried that. We had thirty two, thirty six whatever and I couldn’t do maths at all. I always rang Waddington the girls and said ‘How much bomb load have we taken off?’ And she would tell me. And I had to phone 5 Group and say ‘This much has gone.’
DE: Um.
MH: Once Groupie, Daddy Quinn came in with his slide rule. ‘Just do this Mag, just do this.’ I told him not to bother me. Can’t be bothered. I couldn’t cope, my little failing.
DE: You found a cunning way of getting round it.
MH: [laughing] We had, one night we had a camp concert. I was with this sergeant sitting there and a man who did tricks. What do you call ‘em? A conjurer. And he said ‘Two come up on the stage.’ He spotted us two sergeants sitting. ‘You come up.’ I had to get up and hold ropes and get things and next thing I kept dropping mine. Everybody was cheering, it was awful. Oh dear.
DE: Was that an ENSA concert?
MH: Yeah, yeah. And once we had some old ladies come, oh they were terrible. You had to sort of play a little tea thing in the afternoon. Fancy getting a bunch of airmen and airwomen and these old, fat old ladies with a cello, a big thing, and a piano and they’re all big stout old things in [silk?] dresses. We had to sit and listen.
DE: Not the sort of entertainment that you were after?
MH: No, no. No, no, no, no. Sometimes they were pathetic. I remember when I was young one of the WAAF’s in Skellingthorpe, not Skellingthorpe, [Waddington?] and this girl was singing. A pilot was sitting there she was singing at him and he was looking at her. Oh, they were so in love and she was really singing at him. She had on a pretty dress. All WAAF’s. We were slightly envious because in Fighter Command we didn’t see a man.
DE: Right, so Bomber Command was an improvement then?
MH: Bomber Command wall to wall men. But in 5 Command and 12 Group and Bentley Priory were just headquarters and Air Commodore um, you know the man who had his big wing and was always fighting? What was his name? Oh, can’t think. Anyway 11 Group fought with 12 Group because we had Douglas Bader and he wanted the big wings and [unclear] aeroplanes taking ten minutes to get off. He said ‘it goes in formation then.’
DE: Um.
MH: You could shoot them down. And he said, he said ‘if they drop after they drop their bombs it doesn’t matter.’ And 11 Group mostly were dropping them on my airfields. Anyway I can’t think, can’t think of the name. There was um. It’s gone, gone, it’s gone. It’ll come back to me, float back to me. My mind’s like a computer [unclear]. Anyway they had a lot of arguments about that. [unclear] once Douglas Bader came into the ops room we nearly all swooned away.
DE: Really?
MH: Um, um. See somebody with wings and young.
DE: Right. Yes.
MH: Never did get posted to ops in Fighter Command. I had this poor lover. David will laugh. What was his name? [unclear] and he followed me everywhere, he was a Canadian, and I did not want him. I never went out with him and they kept saying ‘He’s at the guardroom.’ And I wouldn’t go and talk to him and if I ever met a group of Canadians they’d say ‘You’re not Maggie are you?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Oh, awful person.’ And in the end I asked one of them what happened to him. Killed, he flew into a hill.
DE: Oh dear.
MH: I had to pray for him all my life.
DE: Um.
MH: I didn’t want him though. He was about six foot six, he was, and I was only little. And this great big thing standing beside me. Only a little thing. Anyway that was, would have been about 1944 I suppose.
DE: Ah.
MH: Look at it now, 2018. He’s still on my conscience. You can’t make yourself fall in love though can you?
DE: No. And for you it happened with your blonde Australian from 463 Squadron.
MH: Um. All my babies were premature. I had nobody to help me. No mother, no sister, no aunties. No sisters, nobody. [rustling of papers]There’s my MID thing, is that good enough? Defence Medal, yeah MID. Ha, ha, ha.
DE: Well unless you can think of another anecdote to tell me?
MH: No, don’t think I’ve any more.
DE: I’m sure.
MH: We used hitch hike and sit on the tanks and drive to London. Never got into any harm. Just hop in the truck and it’s ‘Hop up love.’ And take us to London and drop us down, we stayed at the Waterloo Bridge. There was a Sally Army hostel nearby, we used to stay there.
DE: This was when you were on leave?
MH: On leave or weekends off. We worked night shifts we’re on, have a couple of days off. And what were those, Lyons Corner Houses then, they had like a restaurant. And they used to wheel a big trolley full of jelly cake, sort of like layers of cream and jelly. Could have a cup of tea and a slice of cake. Like being in heaven, used to have a slice of cake and a cup of tea.
DH: What was the story of your flight down the Ruhr after the war?
MH: Oh yes, yes.
DH: Oh, OK. Tell us about.
MH: Oh yes, we did a cook’s tour after the war. And I had two flights. I had one flight with a person just flying around over Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire. And when we got back he said that he hadn’t filled his logbook in because I’d been sick on his log, which was a dirty lie and I was really angry about that. And then we did a cook’s tour down, what they call a cook’s tour, down the Ruhr when the war was over. Oh, the damage was awful. And we were going round Heliogland and the ‘plane was going like that. [chuckling]
DE: You felt a bit airsick [unclear]?
MH: I felt sick.
DE: How many people went on an aircraft trip, cook’s tour?
MH: Oh, I think a lot of people went on if they wanted to.
DE: Aha.
MH: And you were lucky enough to get someone that would take you.
DE: So where did you stand on the aircraft?
MH: I stood behind the navigator some of the time.
DE: Aha. So you could look out and?
MH: Um.
DE: Yeah.
MH: I was scared though. I was really scared.
DE: Of flying?
MH: Um. To say I’d wanted to be an airman all my life I was really frightened.
DE: Um.
MH: Once we got in the thick cloud I remember flying over Nottingham in what they called cumulus nimbus, real thick black cloud. And I thought ‘If anybody else is in the cloud with us what’s going to happen?’ But there wasn’t anybody in with us.
DE: No.
MH: And then when you’re going down, to [makes vomiting noise] I don’t mind now, I fly on all the big ones.
DE: Yeah. They’re a little bit different aren’t they?
MH: Absolutely. We flew home in the, what’s it David? sleeper. It was non-stop.
DE: The Dream Liner?
MH: Dream Liner, non-stop from Perth to London.
DE: Um.
MH: Horrible, too long.
DE: Yeah.
MH: Can you think of anything else I’ve told you David that I’ve forgotten?
DH: I just noticed you said you flew home on the Dream Liner but your home’s in Australia.
MH: Oh I forget yeah [laughs]
DH: Her heart’s still in England.
DE: Fair enough.
MH: My heart’s always been in England.
DE: Um. Well thank you very, very much for coming here and telling me these stories.
MH: Thank you. Thank you for listening.
DE: No, my pleasure.
MH: Um.
DE: I shall press stop. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Margaret Hourigan
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHouriganM180416
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:13:32 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Margaret Hourigan grew up in and around Nottingham. Despite holding Labour principles she volunteered for the WAAF’s as soon as War was declared and was called up in January 1940. She Hourigan served in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force as a plotter with Fighter Command before being posted to RAF Waddington and RAF Skellingthorpe with Bomber Command. She met and married an Australian pilot, and emigrated to Australia after the war. Margaret and her husband had eight children.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Dawn Studd
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
44 Squadron
463 Squadron
50 Squadron
61 Squadron
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
control caravan
control tower
Cook’s tour
entertainment
faith
George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952)
ground personnel
lack of moral fibre
memorial
military ethos
military living conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
operations room
perimeter track
radar
RAF Bardney
RAF Bentley Priory
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Waddington
runway
service vehicle
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/81/7914/LGodfreyCR1281391v10001.2.pdf
2bb4feee369606f050f7e0e0563b6922
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Godfrey, Charles Randall
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Description
An account of the resource
64 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Charles Randall Godfrey DFC (b. 1921, 146099, Royal Air Force) and consists of his logbook and operational notes, items of memorabilia, association memberships, personnel documentation, medals and photographs. He completed 37 operations with 37 Squadron in North Africa and the Mediterranean and 59 operations with 635 Squadron. He flew as a wireless operator in the crew of Squadron Leader Ian Willoughby Bazalgette VC.
The collection has has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Charles Godfrey and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Godfrey, CR
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-18
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Charles Godfey's observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LGodfreyCR1281391v10001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Egypt
France
Libya
Greece
Germany
Gibraltar
Great Britain
Netherlands
Scotland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Belgium--Haine-Saint-Pierre
Egypt--Alexandria
Egypt--Cairo
Egypt--Ismailia (Province)
Egypt--Marsá Maṭrūḥ
Egypt--Tall al-Ḍabʻah
England--Berkshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cumbria
England--Devon
England--Gloucestershire
England--Hampshire
England--Kent
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Northumberland
England--Oxfordshire
England--Rutland
England--Shropshire
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
England--Worcestershire
England--Yorkshire
France--Angers
France--Caen
France--Creil
France--Mantes-la-Jolie
France--Nucourt
France--Rennes
Germany--Wiesbaden
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Germany--Bottrop
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Dorsten
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düren (Cologne)
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Germany--Munich
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Osterfeld
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Troisdorf
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Wesseling
Greece--Ērakleion
Greece--Piraeus
Libya--Darnah
Libya--Tobruk
Netherlands--Hasselt
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Scotland--Moray
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
England--Cornwall (County)
North Africa
Libya--Banghāzī
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Libya--Gazala
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1942-03-23
1942-06-10
1942-06-11
1942-06-12
1942-06-13
1942-06-14
1942-06-15
1942-06-16
1942-06-17
1942-06-18
1942-06-19
1942-06-20
1942-06-22
1942-06-23
1942-06-24
1942-06-25
1942-06-26
1942-06-28
1942-06-29
1942-07-02
1942-07-03
1942-07-05
1942-07-08
1942-07-09
1942-07-10
1942-07-12
1942-07-13
1942-07-15
1942-07-16
1942-07-17
1942-07-19
1942-07-20
1942-07-25
1942-07-26
1942-07-28
1942-07-29
1942-07-31
1942-08-01
1942-08-06
1942-08-07
1942-08-08
1942-08-09
1942-08-14
1942-08-15
1942-08-16
1942-08-17
1942-08-18
1942-08-19
1942-08-21
1942-08-22
1942-08-23
1942-08-24
1942-08-25
1942-08-26
1942-08-27
1942-08-28
1942-08-29
1942-08-30
1942-08-31
1942-09-01
1942-09-03
1942-09-05
1942-09-06
1942-09-08
1942-09-09
1944-05-06
1944-05-08
1944-05-12
1944-05-13
1944-05-27
1944-05-28
1944-05-29
1944-06-05
1944-06-07
1944-06-08
1944-06-09
1944-06-12
1944-06-13
1944-06-15
1944-06-16
1944-06-23
1944-06-24
1944-07-07
1944-07-09
1944-07-10
1944-07-14
1944-07-15
1944-07-16
1944-07-18
1944-07-19
1944-07-20
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-26
1944-07-28
1944-07-29
1944-07-30
1944-08-01
1944-08-04
1944-11-17
1944-11-18
1944-12-04
1944-12-06
1944-12-07
1944-12-12
1944-12-15
1944-12-18
1944-12-24
1944-12-28
1944-12-29
1945-01-01
1945-01-02
1945-01-05
1945-01-07
1945-01-08
1945-01-23
1945-02-01
1945-02-02
1945-02-03
1945-02-04
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-18
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-03-07
1945-03-08
1945-03-22
1945-03-24
1945-03-25
1945-03-31
1945-04-11
1945-04-13
1945-04-14
1945-04-25
1945-04-30
1945-05-05
1945-05-07
1945-05-15
1945-05-22
1945-06-08
1945-06-18
1945-08-03
1945-08-05
1944-06-06
1944-08-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
Observer's and air gunner's flying log book for Pilot Officer Godfrey from 3 of February 1941 to 25 of September 1945 detailing training schedule, instructional duties and operations flown. Aircraft flown were Dominie, Proctor, Wellington, Hampden, Anson, Defiant, Martinet, Stirling, Lancaster, C-47 and Oxford. He was stationed at RAF Manby, RAF Bassingbourn, RAF Harwell, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Downham Market, RAF Hemswell, RAF Wittering, RAF Abingdon, RAF Upper- Heyford, RAF Upwood, RAF Gillingham, RAF Cranwell, RAF Melton Mowbray, RAF Church Fenton, RAF Market Drayton, RAF Waddington, RAF Upavon, RAF Sywell, RAF Carlisle, RAF Linton-On-Ouse, RAF Newbury, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Brize Norton, RAF Exeter, RAF Andover, RAF Hampstead Norris, RAF Hythe, RAF Gibraltar, RAF St Eval, RAF El Dabba, RAF Shaluffa, RAF Abu Sueir, RAF Almaza, RAF Blyton, RAF Ingham, RAF Marston Moor, RAF Leeming, RAF Acklington, RAF Middleton St. George, RAF Newmarket, RAF Moreton-in-Marsh, RAF Leconfield, RAF Skipton-on-Swale, RAF Wyton, RAF Warboys, RAF Westcott, RAF Gravely and RAF Worcester. He completed 37 operations with 37 Squadron in North Africa and the Mediterranean and 59 operations with 635 Squadron to targets in Belgium, France and Germany. Targets included: Heraklion, Piraeus, Derna, Tamimi, Benghazi Harbour, Gazala, Mersa Matruh, Ras El Shaqiq, El Daba, Tobruk, Fuqa, Quatafiya, Düren, Munster, Mantes- Gassicourt rail yards, Haine St. Pierre rail yards, Hasselt rail yards, Rennes, Angers rail yards, Caen, Ravigny rail yards, Nucourt, Wesseling oil refineries, L’Hey, Kiel, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Notre Dame, Trossy St. Maximin, Karlsruhe, Merseburg, Essen, Ludwigshafen, Duisburg, Dusseldorf, Mönchengladbach, Troisdorf, Dortmund, Nuremberg, Hannover, Munich, Gelsenkirchen, Mainz, Wiesbaden, Osterfeld, Kleve, Wanne- Eickel, Chemnitz, Wesel, Worms, Hemmingstedt, Dorsten, Bottrop, Osnabruck, Berchtesgaden, Ypenburg and Rotterdam. Notable events are that Charles Godfrey undertook a search and rescue operation in a Defiant and during the operation to Trossy St Maximin 4 August 1944 his aircraft, Lancaster ND811, was brought down by anti-aircraft fire. Whilst he survived and evaded, his pilot, Ian Willoughby Bazalgette was awarded the Posthumous Victoria Cross. The hand written notes added to the end of the log book give a description to the crash, and his attempts to evade capture. Pilot Officer Godfrey also took part in Operation Manna, Operation Exodus and Operation Dodge.
11 OTU
15 OTU
20 OTU
37 Squadron
635 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
Bombing of Trossy St Maximin (3 August 1944)
C-47
Cook’s tour
Defiant
Dominie
evading
Hampden
killed in action
Lancaster
Martinet
missing in action
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
Proctor
RAF Abingdon
RAF Andover
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Blyton
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Carlisle
RAF Church Fenton
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Cranwell
RAF Downham Market
RAF Graveley
RAF Hampstead Norris
RAF Harwell
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
RAF Leconfield
RAF Leeming
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Manby
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Melton Mowbray
RAF Middleton St George
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Newmarket
RAF Skipton on Swale
RAF St Eval
RAF Sywell
RAF Upavon
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Upwood
RAF Waddington
RAF Warboys
RAF Westcott
RAF Wittering
RAF Wyton
shot down
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
Victoria Cross
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/470/8353/PBarrJ1506.2.jpg
3d1db7db014345120fe9c55f1048e568
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/470/8353/ABarrJ150731.1.mp3
a995ab5803cf7ebba163570998ee0065
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barr, Jamie
James Barr
J Barr
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Barr, J
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant James Barr DFC (159928 Royal Air Force) and seven photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 61 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by James Barr and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS: This is an interview with Flight Lieutenant Jim Barr DFC, a navigator on 61 Squadron. My name is Adam Sutch and the interview is being conducted at Ludlow on the 31st of July 2015 for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. Jim, thanks so much for agreeing to this interview. I’d like to set the scene by asking you to describe your life before joining the air force. A little bit about your home, parents, siblings, where you lived? That sort of thing.
JB: Yes. Well I left school when I was sixteen and went into engineering. Mechanical engineering. Went, and that, that was at the same place as I was living in Bellshill one word, Bellshill, Lanarkshire and I left and started to um get my mind to start working.
[pause]
JB: I went into an engineering factory which made switch gear and was doing, starting an apprenticeship in engineering and then the war came along and I decided to join the forces and became a, a, trained as a navigator in the er in engineering.
AS: What did your parents feel about you joining the forces?
JB: Um they were great. They were easy. If it was my choice - ok. They, they were happy for me to do that. Actually I was staying at home so of course. I wasn’t leaving so I was living at home and doing my apprenticeship and what happened then was of course that the, the war came along and I was busy doing an mechanical engineering apprenticeship and -
[pause].
AS: No worries.
JB: The apprenticeship was such that I um joined, um it’s difficult really to, to sort it out.
AS: Sometimes there’s a, there’s a word.
JB: Yes.
AS: Just out of reach isn’t there?
JB: Yes.
AS: Ok.
JB: Um.
AS: Shall we come at it another way?
JB: Right.
AS: What, what made you join the air force instead of the army or, or the navy?
JB: Mainly because it, it suited my apprenticeship to be an apprentice in engineering and it meant that I actually was learning engineering as well as doing something suitable for myself and they um when I came of age I then actually left the apprenticeship and actually er
[pause]
JB: Actually the apprenticeship brought me in to actually er -
AS: It started you on the path to the, to the air force. Yeah.
JB: To, yes more or less brought me along so I actually joined the air force which was suitable to my apprenticeship and then carried on doing an engineering apprenticeship as well as being in the air force and then from there I -
[pause]
AS: Can you, can you remember what happened when you actually joined the air force? Whereabouts was it?
JB: Yes I’m just trying to think actually.
[pause]
AS: Have a, have a pause.
[pause]
JB: Joined the air force I then, where did I go?
[pause]
AS: Did you -
JB: It’s amazing actually how -
AS: It’s a, it’s a long time ago. It’s -
JB: It is. Yes.
AS: It’s not unusual at all.
JB: I’m just trying to think where I
[pause]
AS: Did you go straight for air crew selection?
[pause]
AS: Jim, perhaps you could tell us a little bit about being selected for aircrew.
JB: Yes.
AS: And then your training as a navigator.
JB: Right.
[pause]
JB: When I joined, when I joined to, to um go in to the air force I decided to become a navigator in the air force and in order to I, I went to South Africa in order to learn navigation and I was stationed at a place called [Ootson] and we stayed there for, for a period of time. When my navigation was completed I then went to Port Alfred to be a, to learn gunnery and, which took place on the Indian Ocean and from there I then flew back to the UK um -
AS: You flew back to the UK. That would, that was unusual.
JB: [laughs] Yes.
AS: What was life like in, in South Africa when you were training? Compared to, to the UK that you left.
JB: Well it was, there was a, great, an anti-blacks and whites in South Africa where there was a line there. You had, you had, you really did, you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t step off the pavement for example. They actually, any time you were walking along if there was anybody who was not white then they, they had to move off to let me pass or let us pass and we worked, I stayed at a place called [Ootson] and then I went from [Ootson] I went to a place called Port Alfred which was the gunnery, the gunnery centre and we actually did the gunnery at the, on the Indian Ocean. When that was completed I then came back to the UK and I, from, from there we actually –
[pause]
AS: Whereabouts did you come back to in the UK? Can you, can you remember that?
JB: Is there a name there to, to give me a hand.
AS: That’s the, Port Alfred is, is there.
JB: That, Port Alfred, that’s South Africa.
AS: Yeah. And then -
JB: And then we went from there -
AS: To Dumfries.
JB: Dumfries.
AS: What, what were you doing there?
JB: And that was an intermediate station which only lasted for a month and the, the fact was that we were then from, we operated at Dumfries and then I was only there for a month and then I went to somewhere.
AS: North Luffenham.
JB: North Luffenham. North Luffenham. That was, that was a navigation school in North Luffenham which I was there for, I forget how long I was there, for some time actually at North Luffenham.
AS: So that was an OTU? Is that where you -
JB: An OTU yeah.
AS: Where you crewed up?
JB: Yes. So that I was there at the OTU, as a factor there I was there for some time.
[pause]
AS: You were there from October, is that ‘42? Yes it is. October ’42.
JB: Yeah ’42.
AS: Until it’s – no it’s got base in there so you were still flying Wellingtons so –
JB: Yeah.
AS: So you were there you were there until March, is that? March 1943.
JB: Yes.
AS: Gosh that is a long time at OTU isn’t it?
JB: Yes. Anyway I completed the OTU training there and then is there, is there a clue there?
AS: There’s, there’s a lot of fairly standard exercises.
JB: Right.
AS: And then there’s this little two words on the 20th of December.
JB: Yes.
AS: Bailed out.
JB: Bailed out.
AS: What was that all about?
JB: Yes. Well what happened there was that we, we actually it was the first night flight. We were actually doing our first night flying and there was my crew of five. The actual er the pilot and navigator of another crew and an instructor and we took off and climbed to ten thousand feet and I actually found the wind, gave the wind to the pilot and we then actually, the pilot then found that he was in difficulty with the plane so he, the instructor pilot actually run down the back, the plane to see if he could see what was wrong but couldn’t, found that a wire had broken so he then went back, took the pilot out of the flying position, took over the plane, flew it and then told us that we had to bail out and we actually we, we all bailed out which, but in actual fact the pilot in the meantime was fighting with the controls of the plane at ten thousand feet. And in actual fact we were all more or less out except the rear, the rear gunner and the rear gunner saw these people leaving the plane but there had been no intercom. It was all verbal, ‘get out’ and so forth so he actually ran up the plane to find out what was going on and the instructor pilot was flying the plane and told him to get out. Well, in the meantime we had lost so much height that when he did bail out he actually landed in the, in the WAAF quarters of an aerodrome and went to a hut, he didn’t know where he was but he had landed at Wyton aerodrome which was pathfinders I think.
AS: Yes.
JB: And he actually er he actually er -
AS: Gosh, he’s in the WAAF quarters.
JB: Yeah. That’s it. He went, he went to a hut, a door of a hut, opened the door and found they were all women. It was a WAAF, the WAAF quarters of RAF Wyton aerodrome and he actually made himself known and the, the pilot actually where the plane was unmanageable by a, a rookie but this instructor controlled, managed to control the plane and landed at parallel to the actual runway of this Wyton pathfinder ‘drome and we um -
AS: So everybody survived.
JB: Yes. We all, we all actually safely bailed out and, and all went to various quarters. I actually landed in a field of, a ploughed field which was lifting sugar beet and went on more or less came out of that field, on to the road, walked along the road until I came to a house, knocked on the door. A woman, actually I was carrying a parachute and had all the parachute on crumpled up under my arm, knocked on the door and a woman opened the door, slammed the door in my face and her husband then came to the door with a gun and by that time I realised that the thing was that they didn’t take me as being RAF. So I mentioned RAF and I showed them my hat cap and they then invited me in and gave me a cup of tea and went, the boy went in to the next door neighbour, their son came out and they, they then collected, these boys took the parachute and the harness and everything and they took me along to the local lord of the manor, to his house. And he then got his car out and took us around to the police station and the police by this time had been collecting as each member of the crew went to somewhere they then went to the police so that we actually all collected in the police station and the, the, a bus from the aerodrome which was in traveling distance we actually went to the, we were waiting till the bus came and took us back to the, back to the aerodrome. We, from there, we continued actually to do our training, learning and um -
AS: Did you, did you have any, any leave after such an experience or did you just?
JB: No. No.
AS: Did you just get on with it?
JB: No we actually well we did have leave but mainly because the pilot actually he actually somehow or other had damaged his head and he didn’t come with us, he actually went to a hospital and er, er we went on leave. The rest of the crew, we went on leave until the pilot was fit to come out and we actually then,
[pause]
JB: I’m just trying to think what we actually the wireless operator he, he, he didn’t actually take to the baling out part of it and he, his nerve went so he left the crew and we got a new wireless operator and we had then the pilot came out of hospital and we eventually, the rest of us had been on holiday during his period in hospital and we went back to the squadron when after, when he was fit and we then -
[pause]
JB: And I’m trying to think what happened then. We actually, we carried on as a crew. We did training. I forget actually what, what happened. Did we -
AS: A lot of navigation exercises and -
JB: Yes.
AS: And -
JB: So, well, we actually then formed a crew and continued training at this, I forget the name of the, the aerodrome.
AS: Oh at um North Luffenham.
JB: North Luffenham. That’s an OTU.
AS: Yeah.
JB: So we went to this North Luffenham OTU and continued training until we qualified as a crew.
AS: Yeah. What, do you know if there were any consequences for the wireless operator for deciding that he wouldn’t fly anymore.
JB: No. Actually he disappeared. We didn’t know what happened to him. He just left, he left the crew. We didn’t know what happened to him and we got a second tour wireless operator. A chappy who had got so many hours in and he then became our wireless operator and he made up the crew.
AS: So did, did you start the, the OTU course again or, or was it just a continuation with new crew members -
JB: We continued as a crew learning the job. I forget now which is, what’s the name of the, the place we’re at now?
AS: There’s Luffenham where you -
JB: North Luffenham yes.
AS: Bailed out.
JB: Yes.
AS: You’ve got your leave.
JB: Yes.
AS: Until the captain is well -
JB: Yes.
AS: And then you, you carry on with your -
JB: We carried on. Yes we carried on. Which place did we go to from there? From North er -
AS: Oh there’s an interesting one. Your last flight I think at the OTU. Almost.
JB: Yeah.
AS: Emergency landing at Colerne. What, what, can you remember what that was about? You’d done a nickel raid on, on Vichy.
JB: Oh yes that’s right. What happened was we did a, as a final test of a crew we actually did a, what they called, a nickel raid down into France and we actually then flew back up from France back and I don’t know where we actually landed. Did we land somewhere?
AS: Your log book says Colerne. RAF Colerne.
JB: Colerne. That’s right.
AS: Down in the West Country.
JB: We were more or less, we more or less I think we were called up an emergency call and we actually landed at Colerne which was, was an emergency landing and we then, but that actually meant that we had finished I think. We finished at Colerne and we -
AS: Yeah. Yes -
JB: Yes and went to somewhere else.
AS: When you, you called up with your emergency. Can you remember was it something like darkie that you called up or -
JB: Yes. We, no we more or less um mayday. Mayday.
AS: Ok mayday call.
JB: We called up mayday and were given permission to land. That’s right.
AS: Did you get any help with searchlights or anything like that from the ground?
JB: No. No. Well we could see actually that we were circling and they then put the lights up, put three lights up, up so that we actually landed in that triangle and more or less that, we then carried on training. I don’t know whether we, whether we went to a different, to a different -
AS: Ah. That’s, that’s it, that’s the, that’s the OTU -
JB: Yes.
AS: Finished.
JB: Finished. Yeah.
AS: Signed off the OC flight -
JB: Right. OK.
AS: And -
JB: Yes.
AS: Then to 1661 conversion unit at Winthorpe.
JB: Oh yes so actually we more or less progressed in our training to this Winthorpe which was the next stage of the training and we actually only stopped there for a short time at Winthorpe and then we went to somewhere else.
AS: Was this where you, oh it’s, you were flying in the Manchester there.
JB: Oh.
AS: Oh.
JB: So that was an intermediate stage. We actually flew in Manchesters at that particular place and then we went on to somewhere else.
AS: Ok. So, its April 1943 by then and you flew Manchesters and then you were introduced to
JB: Lancasters.
AS: The Lancaster.
JB: Yes.
AS: At the conversion unit.
JB: The conversion unit yes. We started flying Manchesters er Lancasters. So we started flying Lancasters which was what, what was the name of the place be?
AS: That was at, that was at Winthorpe.
JB: Winthorpe.
AS: On your conversion.
JB: Ah huh.
AS: Converting the crew to -
JB: Yes.
AS: To the Lancaster.
JB: Ah huh.
AS: And then I suppose you learnt operation procedures there.
JB: Yes.
AS: Did you?
JB: Yes.
AS: What, what was it like to navigate inside a, a bomber?
JB: Well as a navigator you, you actually you’re in a compartment more or less cut off from the rest of crew with curtains because you didn’t want the light from the navigator department to blinding the people outside so you were actually in a navigation area was a curtain cutting you off from the front of the plane and another curtain here. The wireless operator was sitting behind me more or less to my left. He’s sitting fore and aft and I’m sitting ninety degrees. So the wireless operator is sitting there facing front. There’s a curtain across and I’m sitting here in a compartment with two curtains, illuminated so that that was my actually all flying. The navigator was on his own with no contact with the, visual contact with the crew.
AS: Yeah. Ok thank you. So we leave the conversion unit.
JB: Yes.
AS: In, where are we? Oh there’s more. Oh a bullseye. What’s a, what’s a bullseye?
JB: A bullseye [pause] you have a target, I’m just trying to see
[pause].
JB: It’s a target actually that you more or less navigate the plane to a bullseye and then you actually instruct the bomb aimer to aim for the target.
AS: This is a training target.
JB: Training yes.
AS: In the UK. Ok. So that is May 1943.
JB: Yeah.
AS: You’re finishing at the OTU.
JB: You finished at the OTU so am I going to, which station did I go from there?
AS: To 61 squadron at Syerston.
JB: Yes that’s when training has finished. So I then go to 61 squadron as a member of a crew. The crew’s formed and that’s, that’s where, where the crew fly as a crew.
AS: Yeah. You’re leaving the conversion unit just about the time in May 1943 when 617 squadron -
JB: Ahuh.
AS: Did the dams. Can you remember hearing about that?
JB: Yes. I mean we actually, we, we knew all about it was spread in the actual area that the actual flight, the target was actually that that the crews are aware of this Ruhr navigated navigator and they were actually controlling the target to be aimed at.
AS: Ahum ok. Shall we have a, a pause?
JB: Yes.
[pause]
AS: Jim I’d just like to take you back a moment.
JB: Right.
AS: To something I’ve seen in your, your logbook here.
JB: Right.
AS: It’s in a Wellington and you’re saying, “Circuit and landing. Engine on fire. Landed at Swinderby.” That’s sounds like quite an exciting occurrence.
JB: Yes.
AS: What happened there?
JB: Well it was an unexpected occurrence where an engine went on fire. The, the engineer pointed out that one of the engines was on fire and we actually then had to take emergency action. So what happened was that we actually then called up to ask for permission to land at, at the nearest aerodrome.
AS: That’s Swinderby.
JB: Which was -
AS: Swinderby.
JB: Swinderby. Ahum. And we called up Swinderby and asked for permission to land as we were in an emergency position and we had to land for safety. Yes.
AS: And your pilot, Sergeant Graham Kemp brought it off and everybody, everybody survived.
JB: Yes. Yes survived because we, we,we we landed in a safe condition. No, no problem. Yes.
AS: Quite an exciting time in your training.
JB: Yes. Yes.
AS: Ok we’ll just, we’re just pause there for a moment.
JB: Right.
[pause]
AS: Jim we’re going through your logbook.
JB: Right.
AS: It’s May the 11th, 1943 and you’ve arrived at 61 squadron.
JB: Right.
AS: As an operational crew.
JB: Right.
AS: Can you describe to me the process of coming on to an operational station? What, what sort of things did you have to go through?
JB: Your, your station, you moved from where the, the training was completed. You’re then sent, posted to an operating base which is actually where you’re going to be operating from and you’re given permission, you’re given instruction where to go to operate and the, the, the crew are going to be operating as a trained navigation, a trained crew.
AS: Ok. Did you all live together? Were you all sergeants together? Or -
JB: No. No, well you were in the same block of, um -
[pause]
It’s you’re either you’re living in a, you’re living in an instruct, you’re not living in quarters. Either two of you or one but not three. Usually the pilot and the navigator lived together and the other members of the crew lived as a pair to keep the numbers down.
AS: Ok.
JB: So that we, I was flying, I was living with the pilot in the station that we were posted to -
AS: Ok.
JB: As a, as a group of, a group of um -
AS: As a qualified crew yeah.
JB: As a, yeah -
AS: Ok.
JB: Yes, crews, as actual members of the crew were broken up in to pairs and lived in a joint hut.
AS: Ok.
JB: Right.
AS: Did you see a lot of each other as a crew. As a unit? Or -
JB: You, usually what happened was that the pilot and the navigator usually were mates and the other members, the bomb aimer was with the wireless operator so that you actually broke up into groups of either two or three and operated like that and most lived separately.
AS: Ok.
JB: Yes.
AS: So your logbook here shows you arriving on the squadron.
JB: Yes.
AS: And some, some practice flying, low level bombing, air test.
JB: Yeah.
AS: And then your first operation.
JB: Ah huh.
AS: Can you remember what that was like?
JB: We’re at 61?
AS: Yeah. Syerston, yeah [pause].
JB: It’s um -
AS: It’s got ops Dusseldorf and then a boomerang.
JB: Ah, in actual fact what happened there was we were more or less instructed, all the actual, the squad, the group were actually broken, broken up into crews and the crew were actually instructed, were instructed to go to certain places.
AS: Ahum.
JB: But that, the actual, that was actually to form, where to, were instructed really to, to, to go on -
AS: A bombing trip, yeah. A bombing trip.
JB: Bombing trip, yeah. So that we actually then, as a crew, we went on a bombing trip.
AS: Ok.
JB: And –
AS: And this one was Dusseldorf.
JB: Dusseldorf.
AS: Yeah. But it says got boomerang. What, what is that?
JB: What happened was, some operation, some problem occurred -
AS: Ahum.
JB: With the navigation which indicated that we were not capable of carrying on and we actually, we couldn’t actually, you couldn’t carry on as you were planning to do. It was, what’s the word that, that we didn’t actually, we couldn’t carry on.
AS: Yes. So it was an early return.
JB: An early return yes.
AS: An early return. Yeah. Ok.
JB: Yes that’s right.
AS: And then a successful operation to, to Essen.
JB: Essen so.
AS: Yeah.
JB: Now, now we were actually operating as a crew and each trip was different to the previous one so that we were actually as a crew we were going to different targets in, in Europe as crews.
AS: These are, they’re Ruhr targets aren’t they? These were heavily defended.
JB: Yes.
AS: What, what was the experience like? Can you remember when you first started operational flying? With the flak and the searchlights? What -
JB: Yes. Well in actual fact it was mainly there wasn’t actually any actual er target. There was um -
[pause]
JB: Each crew were not being, they were being fired at as a crew, and we were actually being careful and looking out for what we were doing. So we actually, each crew went to the target or navigated to the target as an operating crew and we were actually taking photographs of the target to indicate the accuracy of the navigation. That’s right, yes.
AS: Looking at your, your logbook for your first few operations it’s, it’s all heavily defended targets isn’t it?
JB: Yes.
AS: Dusseldorf, [Borkhum], Cologne.
JB: Yes.
AS: And -
JB: Yes we went to these actual, these were targets that we were instructed to go to as, as, as individual crews.
AS: Ahum.
JB: The crew was, each crew was going to these targets independently. Not, not combined.
AS: And I see your, your skipper had been commissioned by the end of May.
JB: What, what happened in crews, usually the pilot sometimes decides he is going to apply for a commission. Sometimes the navigator decides as well. Quite often, actually, what happens sometimes is the pilot and navigator applied for commission as a, as a pair and usually the other, the bomb aimer and gunners don’t, don’t go with them. Stay as non-commissioned officers.
AS: Is that happened with, is that what happened with you two?
JB: Yes.
AS: So you were commissioned at the same time?
JB: Yes, and the bomb aimer and the others didn’t -
AS: Ok.
JB: So we split up and went to different messes actually. Yes.
[pause]
JB: Yes.
AS: Are there things that, that stand out in your mind from, from your bombing raids particularly?
JB: This, this actually after this number of years actually I’m just trying to remember [laughs]. What. If we had any problems. Is there any problems?
AS: Um you’ve got a long operation to Turin.
JB: Oh yes.
AS: Followed by an emergency landing at Colerne again. You must have liked Colerne.
JB: [laughs]
AS: Did you have a girl down there?
JB: Yes well in actual fact the thing was really that we actually decided when we were coming back from, from Turin that was, that was somewhere we knew so we decided to, to go to [Turin] in preference to an unknown target or destination.
AS: Ok.
JB: Yes.
AS: Ok. So you said emergency landing. Was that short of fuel after all that time?
JB: It would be actually. We were running short of fuel so we decided that we would make an emergency landing while we knew where we were. Yes.
AS: Now we’re on, talking about your operations. It’s, it’s the middle of 1943 what did you have to help you to navigate. Did you have Gee?
JB: The only thing that I had was we had um its um we’ve got, I’m just trying to remember what you would call it. There’s a picture that showed we more or less had [pause] it shows, it shows, a dot to tell us where we were so what happened was that we, the navigator really from starting off from base the navigator then tells the pilot what, what course to, to fly. So the pilot then flies on, on a particular course and the navigator tells him the duration of the, the time that they are on this course so as, as they’re flying along and more or less the bomb aimer is giving target pinpoints and we actually know from the bomb aimers instructions that we are on course or we are off course or we actually make arrangements. We know from navigation, we know that we are actually running off course so what we do then is that we extend the course that we are flying on by say six minutes so that you’ve got time then to more or less assume where you going to be and then you actually give a new course to tell them a certain direction. You give the pilot the new direction to fly so that they come down on to the new, new target.
AS: So you’re working out wind vectors -
JB: Wind –
AS: And new track, yeah?
JB: Yeah.
AS: OK. So you were busy all the time.
JB: All the time. The navigator’s always the only one who is really working and he’s working all, he works all the time.
AS: So back, back to this box was it Gee or H2S.
JB: Gee.
AS: It’s Gee. Yes.
JB: Well yes it could be either. Actually, the Gee was more basic whereas the H2S was a more accurate point so that you’re, you’re more or less you tell the pilot that in five minutes at so and so time you will actually will turn to X direction so that when you get to this point you say, ‘Turn now,’ and the pilot then has already put it on his
[pause]
AS: The, the compass.
JB: Compass.
AS: Yeah.
JB: He has already put a compass needle on the course to that you’re going to turn on to so what happens is at the time you say, ‘now,’ the pilot then turns over on to the new course and you fly along this particular course and as, as you’re going along you actually ask the bomb aimer to give pin points so that you have assistance from the bomb aimer who tells you that you’re on course or you’re off course and if you’re off course you’ve got, he’s got to say you’re off course and to give you an indication and you’d then more or less extend so many minutes to a new course, to a point where you turn on to a new course to get, to put, to put the plane on to the course that’s going to bring him to the right point at a certain time.
AS: So you and the bomb aimer were really a bit of a navigational team.
JB: A pair yes.
AS: Yes.
JB: Yeah.
AS: So did, sometimes I guess the bomb aimer couldn’t see the ground?
JB: Quite often. You don’t always but in actual fact what usually happens is they then assumes. They do an exercise er you turn the plane onto an assumed course so that you actually hope that when you actually get to the next ETA, estimated target, you actually will be able to see where the plane is from, from the bomb aimer. He tells you that we’re actually, in five minutes you should see so and so and usually if your navigation is good you do see the target that you are waiting for.
AS: When you’re giving course corrections to the, to the captain did you do it by voice or did you always pass him a note?
JB: No. Usually voice.
AS: Ahum.
JB: Usually you tell him that at a certain time, a certain time you, I want you turn on to X Y Z and he then when he turns on he says, ‘on new course’ and he tells you that he’s done what you told him to do and then of course the bomb aimer is more or less going to be the one who’s looking where, where you’re going and the bomb aimer then says X Y Z so that he’s checked that what you told the bomb aimer to do the bomb aimer actually then sees that the pilot’s done it and you then actually carry on and tell the bomb aimer that you should be able to see X Y Z soon because that’s where I planned that you’re going.
AS: So the bomb aimer is your spy in the front of the aeroplane.
JB: Yes. Yes.
AS: Yeah.
JB: Yeah.
AS: Ok.
JB: Yeah.
AS: So you worked very closely together.
JB: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
[pause]
AS: Another, another engine failure um -
JB: Ahum.
AS: On your air sea firing. Port inner u/s. Were the, were the aeroplanes generally reliable? Did you have confidence in them?
JB: Oh yes. Usually you always assume that the plane is doing what you tell it to do. And the bomb aimer is more or less, he’s, he’s got his own map which is a visual map so when you actually tell the pilot what to do he then actually does it and says, he’ll say, ‘On to course A B C,’ and then er, ‘On course.’ And then he’ll say in so many minutes we should come to so and so. So that each one, the pilot, the navigator tells the pilot and the pilot is then is telling the crew that the plane is now on so and so and he tells the, the bomb aimer that you should be able to see so and so in a five minutes or so many minutes to help you to correct what you’re doing.
AS: And when, when you’re correcting course, adding the wind vectors and what not did you use broadcast winds or did you calculate your own?
JB: You usually, you’ll calculate if you’re at A and when you arrive at A you should have told the pilot that when you get to A I want you to turn on to so and so and then you more or less give him a primer that says you’ll be coming to that point in a minute or two minutes. And then when you get there the pilot will say, ‘Altered course now,’ and you change on to a new course and then he says, ‘On course,’ once he’s turned, he’s on course and you also say that you will stay on that course until so and so. So many minutes. And you then tell them that you’re, you should now have turned and the pilot will then say, ‘I have turned on to the new course.’ So the three of them, the pilot, the bomb aimer and the navigator are more or less playing as a team.
AS: Yeah.
JB: And each one is checking the other and expecting and the other one is actually telling the other so it’s a team of three.
AS: Did you have, ever have to take real emergency action as a crew? Corkscrew or anything like that? And what, what effect does that have on your navigation?
JB: Do you mean the one um worry that you have sometimes as a crew is when, for example, the um the wind changes. You actually, you’re doing, the pilot is doing what the navigator told him to do and when the pilot is on the course that the navigator told him, when he’s on the course he then actually, it says on course if the wind changes and you’re actually, unknown to you or anyone else, you’re actually blown off course and you’re actually, you’ve, for example the pilot will be told by the navigator you should be in five minutes you should be coming to a railway crossing or something, a railway bridge or something. Once you actually, you tell him that the pilot will say he’s turned on to that course you say well in five minutes you should actually come to so and so then of course if he says if the five minutes come up and that hasn’t appeared the bomb aimer then says, ‘I can’t see where you instructed me,’ So you’ve then got to ask them to then look and see about - what can you see? Is there a river there, is there a railway or is there a road? Something. You can ask the bomb aimer to pick out to more or less assist you.
AS: And then reverse it back it to find -
JB: Reverse it.
AS: What the wind.
JB: Yeah.
AS: And then after the middle of August you, you get a new pilot.
[laughs]
AS: A Flying Officer Turner. What, what happened there?
JB: That’s it. Jimmy Graham. Jimmy Graham actually was grounded. His, his, he, Graham was actually damaged in this bailout and up to this point he had assumed he would try and carry on and in actual fact he decided that he was not capable of carrying on so what happened was that we were then transferred to a new pilot and he, this pilot took over from Graham and he then started. He was a second tour pilot who, he was more experienced than we had been used to, yes.
AS: And he takes you on a long cross country to get used to a new crew.
JB: New. Yes. Yes.
AS: But no break from operations. You’re still -
JB: Still carrying on.
AS: Now you’ve, you’ve flown in several different aeroplanes. Did you get your own aeroplane?
JB: Usually yes. You had your own plane.
AS: Ok and did, what aircraft did you have? Did you decorate the aircraft?
JB: You don’t usually er you didn’t actually you didn’t put anything. I think, I think we had actually. We put, yes we had a, I think we had a scantily clad woman lying on a bomb on the side of the plane. Sometimes once you got a plane you could do something like that and the pilot would maybe get a ground staff artist, you know, to do something to mark it to say it’s your plane.
AS: And this, this was Just Jane was it?
JB: That was, yes.
AS: And there’s one at, a Lancaster at East Kirkby.
JB: Yes.
AS: Marked up as Just Jane. Have you seen her?
JB: Jane. Yes. Yes.
AS: That’s your aircraft.
JB: [laughs] Yes.
AS: Were you a very well-disciplined crew in terms of communications in the aeroplane and -
JB: Oh yes. I mean, we, I was always lucky we actually had a good, well-disciplined crew where there was never any nonsense you know. We never had any bomb aimer or gunner more or less telling jokes and stuff. We never had anything like that. We always were on the job. So we actually told, the navigator told the pilot what course to go on and the bomb aimer would say he would, he’d noted that so that it was always very prompt and correct.
AS: Shall we have a pause?
JB: Right yes.
[pause]
AS: Jim, we were just talking. Everyone has their, their specialist crew positions. Did you ever change over? Change places with other crew members?
JB: Yes actually on occasion I did do a swap with a rear gunner. I actually called up the rear gunner and told him that I would like to switch with him so that I’m sitting in his rear turret and he will sit up here in my navigational position and so that when it’s convenient I’ll say, ‘Ready to change,’ or ‘Change now.’ So what happened was that I actually put all my pencils and so forth, made them safe on my drawing board and then left it. So I went back down to the rear turret where the rear gunner moved up and sat in my position and I went back into the turret, the rear turret and all you can do in the rear turret is slew from left to right. You can raise the gun and drop it but you are limited to do what you are actually trying to do. You can only move to the right to a point, to a stop and come back and swing around to a stop and you can actually vary it according to where you want to, to move and it’s a case of your position is purely controlled by yourself and nobody else can actually move whereas in actual fact other positions people are doing it from their own satisfaction and the pilot will more or less tell the rear gunner to change over with the bomb aimer and they’ll both say, ‘Well I’m disconnecting now,’ and tell the pilot what he’s doing. Both of them will do the same so that they tell the pilot and the pilot actually assumes that what is being done is correct and does it.
AS: What did you feel like, sitting there in space, going backwards in the rear turret?
JB: Not, not, not nice at all. I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t do it very often. In fact I doubt if I did it five times all the times we were actually flying.
AS: And this was all in training flights in, in England?
JB: Yes.
AS: Yeah. What did the rear gunner feel like?
JB: He also didn’t like it. He, he preferred to be there looking back and only, didn’t like it when he was up in the front of the plane.
AS: Was there anyone else on the aircraft who could make some attempt at flying the aeroplane apart from the pilot?
JB: Yes oddly enough actually we never in, in, in any crews that I flew in and I flew in quite a number we never really did a switch so I never actually went out on a training flight and changed over with somebody else. I never did that with our planes.
AS: Ok. That’s great. That’s great. We’ll have a pause there.
JB: Yeah.
[pause]
JB: The fact um that we did, I, I um on one trip we went to Berlin. We actually took off and went up and crossed Denmark. We went up, more or less flew up to Denmark then flew across the north of Europe until we came to a point where I would turn from my navigation. I would say that we were now about at a point where we were going to turn starboard and go and fly down to, to Berlin and on one occasion it happened that we decided, the reason we decided to do this particular exercise was on a foggy, cloudy night so we actually didn’t see anything and we were above cloud all the time so I was more or less, I, I before we actually er set off I decided I would navigate using um [pause] to do it by dead reckoning. So what happened was that we actually take off and we actually climbed up north east and but I flew at, got up below cloud base and decided to find the wind at that point so that I actually knew that I was starting off knowing what was happening and then we carried on and climbed up above the clouds and we navigated then across to the east and then when I estimated that we were north of Berlin I told the pilot to turn to starboard and we would fly down and when I estimated that we should be over Berlin I then told the pilot to start descending and we found out, of course. Then the problem then was to find out where we were which was quite an exercise because it was, it’s amazing really what happens when you’ve got, you’ve got a wind that is estimated from the Met Office. You estimate the wind at a certain directness, at a certain speed and you actually, what navigators, you think you know where you are and then when you actually turn south to go and come through to Berlin it’s amazing actually how far you’re off. It’s extremely difficult.
AS: Does there come a point where you can see the target on fire that tells you where the target is? Or -
JB: We, we, we never did any where we were actually bombing you know and I didn’t do any where we were actually going to bomb a target. Actually we never did that. So on training we never had the pleasure of seeing it. Yeah.
AS: When you’re, you’re tracking towards the target, following your course towards the target you’re in a stream with lots of other aeroplanes. Lots of other bombers.
JB: Yeah. We actually, we never, I actually um it was odd that we didn’t find that we could see, after we climbed up to operational height and so forth, you never find another plane. Although I mean the thing is you’re at an unknown height, and they’re at an unknown height I don’t know so of course you don’t really know where they are you know and you don’t see them so you never, we never actually saw other planes. It’s amazing.
AS: The gunners never saw any German planes?
JB: No. No, it was amazing. Yeah.
AS: Was it cold in the aeroplane at night?
JB: We never, we were warm, so we were plugged in. We had an electrically heated flying outfit so we never had the pleasure or the opposite but we didn’t have the cold. We always flew in heated suits so we never got the cold.
AS: Jim, looking at your logbook it seems most of your excitement was in training, with -
JB: Yes.
AS: Baling out and what not but I think you had an engine problem on take-off.
JB: Yes. On one occasion actually where quite unexpectedly we were taking off and we were, the tail, we were going at such a speed that we actually had the tail off the ground which meant that we were getting to the touch point where we were going to be airborne in a matter of seconds actually when we actually had the pilot then had the experience that two engines on the port side cut and he then managed to control the plane and bring, bring it to, to a halt after a lot of er well he was controlling the, the actual moving plane which was slewing to the left and he managed to prevent any danger where a wing could possibly have dipped and hit the ground and cause a lot of trouble. Nothing like that happened to us. We managed to slow down carefully and quickly and stopped the plane before it hit anything.
AS: So you were full of fuel.
JB: Full of fuel. Yes.
AS: Full of bombs.
JB: Yes.
AS: On your way to Magdeburg.
JB: Yes and, and we, we managed to, the pilot managed to hold things and, and prevented any, and dips of wings or, or damage, prevented which could have caused a terrific accident.
AS: Do you know if he got any commendations for that?
JB: Actually they were very, very loath to, to give commendations. You don’t, I can’t think of any occasions really where something like that happened and somebody took a pilot say aside and said, ‘Well done.’ That, that didn’t actually, I suppose when you think about it he was expected to do what he did. To, to have dipped and have the wing touch the ground and have a horrible accident really the pilots were capable of preventing that which really, thank God for, for the pilots really. I don’t know of any. I knew, I can think of one occasion where a chappy, it happened to, where he landed, where he actually came in and hit an air pocket and the wing tipped and touched the ground and caused the plane to well, really bounced badly and come to a stop safely without any, any great amount of damage happening to the plane. We know, I know of another one who, we landed. Syerston was a place which actually crossed the River Trent, came to the, came to the land inside and bounced the plane down. We actually did have one which actually did come down too low and skimmed on the water and fortunately the River Trent wasn’t actually too high and the banks so he did actually skim along the off side of the, of the river and without doing any -
AS: He got away with it.
JB: Yeah. But it was er quite easily done actually if somebody’s not really on the ball. Yes. Yeah.
AS: But as you say you were all grateful to your pilot for -
JB: Ahum.
AS: For pulling it off.
JB: Yes. Yes.
AS: I know it’s an awful long time ago but could we try and go through what happened on a, a mission from start to finish. I know they were all different.
JB: Yes.
AS: You’re called for ops and then what happens? Did you get a navigation briefing or -
JB: Yes what happens is that it depends whether, whether the actual um the weather whether it’s winter or summer or so forth. Assuming it’s like this time, the end of the summer, so that what happens is that we would always take off late. If you were actually going to bomb Germany you would take off late so that you were actually going to be getting across the North Sea, getting dark so that you’re, you’re not going to be going terribly far in to Germany otherwise I mean you would be in danger of having the Germans seeing you. So what happened was that you would take off, take off say half past ten so that you were getting close to the European coast by dark. Quite, quite, quite often you would actually, you be climbing then, hard as you could to get as high as you could without more or less um going into Germany, making it safe, making it easier for them. So you’d take off and get as high as possible before you were actually over Holland. And you would, quite often you would actually be getting up to your ceiling by the time you get over Germany and you’re more or less at a reasonably safe height if you could call any height safe but you would actually climb up and then you would get to the target pretty quickly before you actually start to come back because you don’t want to be over there. When you are coming home you want to be in a safe position so you would actually make sure that you were actually doing everything in the danger area as, which means you’re as high as you actually can be.
AS: Ok.
JB: We actually, I mean quite often you would actually, If you had any mechanical problems then that’s the time it’s dangerous really if you actually were to be in Germany and then start having mechanical trouble which means that you’ve got to lose height than you’re in, you’re in trouble. We never really had a situation like that because I mean usually you don’t get back.
AS: So did, I know squadrons were different. Did your squadron brief everybody together? Or did you have a pilots and navigators briefing? What, what happened at a briefing?
JB: At a briefing you’ve got all the, usually the pilot, the navigator and the bomb aimer are usually, they have a briefing before the rest of the crews come in so that you’re actually getting all the detail and you’re getting it so that you can ask questions and so on and so forth and make sure that you’ve got all the knowledge that you need before they open the door and let the other crew members in because there was no point in them sitting listening to what you get so usually the actual briefing is two parts and the final part is with everybody there and the crews have asked all, the navigator and bomber aimer and pilot have all asked the questions that they want and the answers too. Yeah
AS: And how long did you get to do all your calculations and do your [frack]?
JB: Sometimes, for example at this time of the year in actual fact it’s usually the briefing is quite often er very close to final briefing because you’ve, you’ve, you’ve got very little time between the briefing and then the take-off. It’s usually at this time of year it’s all very, very sort of crammed whereas in the winter time you’ll more or less have briefing by day so that you’ve got plenty of time to ask questions and so forth and without any danger really of running into or running out of time. Yeah.
AS: So are you, are you wearing you, your flying gear at the briefing time?
JB: No.
AS: So it’s -
JB: No. You go in more or less in you’re going out, your working, your working kit because usually it’s a case of you’ve got your going out kit which is posh, reasonably posh whereas the, the, the one that’s not so posh is the one that’s possibly if you’re briefed and you’re actually going to bomb tonight and then at the last minute they decide they’re not going well then quite often the, the crews would be given permission to go back and drop all your equipment back in the shed and then you can go into town but, and have a drink without actually being too smart that you’re allowed to go in and just go to the local rather than to be the, the, the final one.
AS: When you got kitted up um were you also issued with things like escape kits?
JB: Yeah. You got, you got there’s, there’s, there’s usually a kit that you actually take any time you’re going out where there’s a danger of not coming back. You go out later bombing usually if there’s any danger of you going out usually you’re not allowed to get ready because you, you, you wouldn’t be properly kitted out to go. I mean, I would say that in a, in a in a tour of crew for example we were on a squadron we were there for about nearly a year on a squadron but in actual fact in it’s in the summertime if you were on this time of the year you would, you would do your thirty trips. You know, you would do them in in three months whereas we, we, we quite often we were, we did, we were on our second tour so that we were getting messed around for quite a while where usually in the summertime and people were actually bombing in June, July, August you did it in three months.
AS: Were you the, the old men of the squadron then or were there other crews in the same position as you?
JB: Yeah. We were actually the old men because my, my, the pilot Jimmy Graham you’ve seen there changed over to Turner.
AS: Yes.
Well Turner was already on his second tour and he actually, Turner was more or less friendly with the squadron commander and he picked his, picked his targets meaning he would say if it was an easy one. I mean, he’d always go on easy target rather than going on a difficult one.
AS: This was your pilot?
JB: Yeah. He was friendly with the boss and sometimes we, we didn’t -
AS: When, when you kitted up. You go out, I suppose in a lorry or a bus to the aeroplane.
JB: Yeah.
AS: Did you have lots of checks or lots of time sitting about?
JB: No. We, we, we usually knew you would actually quite often it was a matter in the summer, I remember in the summertime when we were briefed we were, we were out sitting on the grass outside the er, the, the, where all the kit was. We would get our kit and more or less walk out and just sit on the grass for quite a long while before we’d get ready and go out to the plane. So you didn’t stay long outside the plane. You stayed quite a long time outside the briefing and that but you would actually, I mean, quite often it was a case quite often we would be sitting there and you would have WAAFs that were sort of there not going anywhere and their boyfriends were going to be flying they would, they would be down outside the shed talking to us you know where and we would then go and fly. They would more or less go back in to the mess and have a drink. They didn’t actually go out because they didn’t want to because you were the one that was going to be away and they didn’t want to go out without you.
AS: And so at this stage you all knew where you were going but they didn’t know where you were going.
JB: No. Well, yes that’s right. Oh yeah. Nobody knew. You kept it. Yes. I mean that was the one thing actually that they knew not to ask. You know, I mean it was a case of we knew, they didn’t but they knew not to bother asking us. We wouldn’t tell them.
AS: So you’re, you’re in the aeroplane. You’re, you’re fired up. You’re on the taxi-way waiting to go and you get the green light. You were talking earlier about climbing to height. Did you generally climb on course or did you go to Mablethorpe or something like that and climb before you set course.
JB: No, now you mention Mablethorpe but what happened often was that you would actually, because most of Bomber Command were actually on the east side of the country so what happened was that we would take off and we would climb up towards sort of [ ? ] if you like and then call it that and do it in such a way that by the time we get to the English coast and you’re almost at height if it’s, if it’s going to be a Ruhr, a Ruhr target you actually get to the actual height before, before the, you get to the English coast especially if the North Sea is a bit narrow you know and you, you more or less climb up like that you know. On one occasion we caught, when you get experienced you then take a new, a pilot who joins a squadron quite often if you’re on a raid they would ask you to take this pilot as an experience for him. Well in actual fact what happened actually is that the pilot actually we had a pilot sitting next to the flight engineer was actually standing where the second pilot is in his seat up next to the front, next to the pilot. The pilot is on the left and the other pilot, other passenger, is sitting there. We’ve actually had it one night we were, I’ll always remember, it was we were going down, it must have been to North Italy or somewhere. We were flying down through England and this rookie was sitting beside the pilot and he didn’t have his intercom on and he saw a plane coming to hit us and he, he actually, it was almost a collision and the pilot actually saw it himself and threw the plane out er and prevented an accident but it was a very, very close thing where the pilot, after that he actually then more or less told any passenger that, ‘When you’re, when you’re sitting beside me never actually, have your mic on, no, ‘Have your mic on so that if you see something you can speak.’ And so after that near, near miss which was early on in our tour, we um he nearly caused an accident. We very seldom, I don’t think we ever saw any collisions but there must have been quite a number which were near, near the mark. Yeah.
AS: Gosh.
JB: Yeah.
AS: On the, on the homeward trip um did you use Gee to navigate back to base?
JB: We usually, we, we, er, we, we never actually, we never, we never used Gee unless we were coming from north of Scotland down to maybe, to Norway or something like that, you know. We would possibly do it then but going across into Holland or France I mean we never actually left it to chance. We always more or less made sure that we were actually defending if you like. Flying in a defensive way. Yeah.
AS: On, on the way back what was your skipper’s habit? Did he want to be the first one home? Did he, did he pour on the petrol? Or, or -
JB: He did, we actually always tried to be first back [laughs] and I mean, I mean he was, I mean it was a case of, it was a case of being safe you know and it’s safer if you’re up front than you are at the back. You’re way worse at the back.
AS: What was it like when you were back near the airfield in the circuit?
JB: Yeah.
AS: Does it get very busy? Very –
JB: Yeah.
AS: Very scary?
JB: Yeah. It was actually because usually there’s two squadrons at each aerodrome you know. So it’s a matter of, you know, it’s dodgy, you know and you’ve got to be, you’ve got to be very alert because when you’re circling around, you know, it’s quite easy to be on the same sort of level as somebody else. I don’t think I, we never heard of anybody being in a collision but I mean there must have been a lot of near misses.
AS: In, in the circuit was it just the pilot that could hear air traffic control or could you hear it to keep a check on it as well?
JB: Everybody can hear, yeah. Yeah.
AS: So when he’s given a height to fly in the circuit -
JB: Ahum.
AS: You’re all listening in.
JB: Yeah. Yeah ahum.
AS: So that’s it. You’re in a circuit.
JB: Ahum.
AS: On the runway, finished with engines. What, what happened then?
JB: Ahum.
AS: You were taken off to a debrief? What happened in the debrief?
JB: Usually, usually you go in and there’s some WAAFs there dishing up coffee or tea. So you would actually, there was if you were first to get there, and then there’s a bit of a queue forms as the sort of bulk of them come in and they get, have a drink and then you go and they usually had quite a number of debriefings going on so that we weren’t held up too badly and usually the, the actual reporting back you, anybody who was really, had been in, in some sort of mix-ups or something you know they have to get all the time they need to report back so that it’s, it’s of advantage to any other crews as to what happens. Gets the, you know, that everybody’s sort of wanting to know how he got on or he, what happened to him and so on.
AS: So you were keen to know that your friends in other crews had, had got back.
JB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AS: That, that can’t have always been the case.
JB: Oh no. In the Ruhr, I mean when we did bombing the Ruhr I mean we, we lost six one night you know. There would be a, sort of, sixteen crews and we would have, we’d lose six in a night. No. It got pretty nasty and it was a matter of luck really. Yeah.
AS: Luck and -
JB: Yeah.
AS: Crew training and discipline. Yeah.
JB: Yeah. Yeah.
AS: In the, in the debrief did you, did they interrogate your, your navigation log? Did you need to -
JB: Usually it’s um we’re all, the three, we’re all, the pilot, the navigator the bomb aimer and the flight engineer they’re more or less the ones who’re the ones who were up in the front and the gunners and the bomb aimers they actually are not so that you’re, there’s some of them who were back leaving it to the pilot and the rest to do, do any reporting so that they they’re the ones who would usually have unless the rear gunner who had been attacked you wouldn’t actually have any assistance from a rear gunner. No. I mean it’s quite often, quite often that they do nothing actually because it may be a quiet night. Yeah.
AS: Well that’s a good trip isn’t it?
JB: Yeah. Yeah.
AS: I think we’ll pause there, Jim. Thank you.
JB: Right. Yeah.
[pause]
AS: Jim, we’ve talked quite a lot about navigation. The black art –
JB: Yeah.
AS: Of navigation and your, your first tour.
JB: Ahum.
AS: And some of the incidents that happened.
JB: Yeah.
AS: Can we, can we now move on to after April.
JB: Right.
AS: In 1944. When you’d finished your first tour.
JB: Ok.
AS: What happened then? It must have been a massive party. Was there?
JB: [laughs] Oddly enough you know it sort of, it fizzled. Yes, it’s amazing really. Yeah.
AS: Well relief rather than -
JB: Yeah.
AS: Very low key was it?
JB: Ahum.
AS: Ok. ‘Cause you must have been the senior crew on the squadron then.
JB: Oh yes. We were. Yes.
AS: What happened then? After your end of tour had fizzled. What, where did you, what happened next? Did you have leave?
JB: Well we, we, we, we moved out. We actually went various places. I, what, what have you got there? Um -
AS: 14 OTU.
JB: 14 OTU yes. That was, that was an instructing at 14 OTU and the next one along as well was um 12 or something. The next OTU.
AS: Ok. So the crew had, had broken up by then?
JB: Ahum.
AS: And you all went your separate ways.
JB: Separate ways yeah.
AS: Ok. Did you keep in touch afterwards?
JB: We didn’t actually. We, we um well in actual fact I did with one chappy but none of the rest of them. No.
AS: Ok. Who was that? Which one?
JB: Yeah. He was the bomb aimer. Freeth I think his name.
AS: Ok. Did, did you know him from before -
JB: No.
AS: Before you were in -
JB: No. No.
AS: Ok. But the others, the others just went their separate ways.
JB: Yeah. Fizzled off, yes.
AS: Ok.
JB: Ahum.
AS: Did you choose to be a nav instructor or did you just get posted?
JB: Well actually it was a case of you had, it was a case of um being posted because I was a navigator. You know it was sort of automatic.
AS: Did they teach you how to instruct or just -
JB: No.
AS: Throw you into the -
JB: No.
AS: Deep end.
JB: Just, that’s right. That’s the deep end. Swim [laughs]
AS: Um what, what were your duties? Did you, did you teach navigation from beginning to end or did you do the airborne piece? What, what were your duties?
JB: Well it was really what we, what we had, what was offered to us if you like with that than choosing. It sort of happened, if you like.
AS: A posting. So this, you were at an operational training unit so, so you’d have crews or navigators who knew how to navigate.
JB: Yes.
AS: And you were teaching them the operational stuff were you?
JB: That’s right, yeah. Yes. Yes.
AS: Did you feel safe flying with other crews?
JB: I suppose you did. Yes. You know, No, I never felt, I was never worried if you like. No. No. Yes.
AS: And then to, to 12 OTU. The same thing I guess.
JB: Yes, that was the same thing. Which one is 12? What’s the name of it?
AS: Chipping Warden.
JB: Chipping warden ah huh.
AS: Where’s that?
JB: Isn’t it, it’s down in that neck of the woods, same as, same as, as this one here. That one there is Market Harborough, was it? Market Har. Yes. Quite close, quite close to Market Harborough.
AS: Ok.
JB: Ahum.
AS: And on, on Wellingtons again.
JB: Yes. Right. Yes.
AS: And did the, by this time did the training aircraft have, the Wellingtons, did they have Gee as well?
JB: They were all Wellingtons. So, Wellingtons yeah.
AS: So that was a step backwards from the, from the Lancaster.
JB: Yeah.
AS: So you’re, you’re flying with a lot of different crews.
JB: Yes ahum.
AS: Do, do you remember what these mean 92/4, 92/1? It’s a long time ago.
JB: Now, I’m just trying to think now. [pause] No.
AS: No. It doesn’t matter.
JB: No.
AS: It could be anything couldn’t it?
JB: Yes.
AS: It could be anything. But no, no incidents so -
JB: No.
AS: You haven’t had to jump out of any more Wellingtons
JB: No [laughs] [Phone ringing in background] Gwen will take it.
AS: A lot of instructional flying and these
JB: Yes.
AS: Same exercises going on. When did you receive your DFC? Because you got a DFC. Was that -
JB: That was at the end of um, um [pause] it was because these ones 12 and 14 they were at the end and it was more or less about that time. Yes.
AS: So you got your, your DFC for your tour of operational flight.
JB: Tour of, yes.
AS: Yeah. Can you remember anything about the citation? What the citation said?
JB: I don’t.
AS: No. Ok. It’s a long, a long time ago.
JB: Yes. Yes.
AS: But that is, that is recognition isn’t it?
JB: Oh yes. Oh yes.
AS: Of, of good service. Yes.
JB: Yes.
AS: And your, your pilot had the, the DFM did he get the DFC as well?
JB: Well the DFM, he was that chap, he was a Scotsman which, his name, his name was -
AS: Turner.
JB: Turner.
AS: Yeah, I think it was Turner. Yeah. Flying Officer Turner.
JB: Turner
AS: Yeah.
JB: Yeah.
AS: Did he get a DFC as well?
JB: I don’t remember actually because if I, if I, if, I would have to put him in again but I don’t think he’s shown as a DFC DFM.
AS: No.
JB: No ahum.
AS: So, more instructional flying.
JB: Yes.
AS: Into December of, of ’44.
JB: Ah huh.
AS: And then I believe you joined an incredibly famous squadron.
[laughs]
AS: What was that all about? What happened there? You went back on ops.
JB: I, I actually that was um I think I was there. I think I was there.
AS: Ahum.
JB: You know and it was a case of push him, push him in there rather than somebody else.
AS: Ok ‘cause I thought you’d have been done with operational flying but did you volunteer for a second tour or, or you were pushed a bit were you?
JB: It was, it was a case of just of being there.
AS: Ahum.
JB: You know where, you know [laughs] yes
AS: So this by April, by April 1945 you were doing formation flying and bombing practice with 617 squadron.
JB: Yes.
AS: At Woodhall Spa.
JB: Woodhall Spa. Yes.
AS: With Flying Officer Frost DFC.
JB: Frost. Yes
AS: As your, as your pilot.
JB: Yes.
AS: Did you choose him? Did he choose you? Or –
JB: I think, I think I flew with him before actually so he was, it was a bit of um being there.
AS: Ok. So you flew with him when you were um at the, at the OTU.
JB: OTU yeah.
AS: Ok.
JB: Ahum.
AS: Ok. And so that’s April 1945.
JB: 1945 yes.
AS: And that was 617 squadron at Woodhall Spa.
JB: Woodhall Spa.
AS: And another operation almost at the very end of the war.
JB: Ah huh.
AS: Where’s that one to? What was that one all about?
JB: I’m just trying to remember actually.
AS: I think it was Berchtesgaden was it? That’s -
JB: Berchtesgaden. Yeah.
AS: And that was Hitler’s -
JB: That was, that was actually um right down south of Berlin, South Germany.
AS: South of Munich. Yeah.
JB: Yes.
AS: Yes. Was that, that was daylight was it?
JB: Yes. I mean it was, yeah, very late on. That was late on, yeah ahum.
AS: And did, did you come out from behind your curtain on that one to see all the aeroplanes in the air?
[laughs]
AS: Or did you just stay in your, in your little navigator’s hutch -
JB: I think actually I usually stayed in, stayed in the [laughs] the hut [laughs] as you call it. Yes.
AS: Sensible I think.
JB: Ahum yes.
AS: And that very late on -
JB: Ahum
AS: Was the, the end of your, your operational flying?
JB: Operational flying yes. Yeah.
AS: Can you remember when you heard that the war was over and what happened? I’ll be surprised if you could because it’s so long ago but -
JB: Yes.
AS: It’s, perhaps was there something that, that made a real impression.
JB: Yes. I don’t think so. I don’t think anything really sort of stood out.
AS: Ahum.
JB: No. It, it was, yes, it happened.
AS: Yeah.
JB: But ahum.
AS: But the, the flying continued.
JB: Yes.
AS: On, on the squadron.
JB: Ahum.
AS: But non-operational.
JB: No. No. Yeah. Yes
AS: But, but formation flying, fighter affiliation, high level bombing. So this is all keeping the skills -
JB: Ahum.
AS: For the crew isn’t it?
JB: Yes. Yes. That’s right.
AS: And onwards through to the end of May and still, still -
JB: Ahum.
AS: A lot of training flying.
JB: Ahum.
AS: And then incendiary dropping. Now was this the getting rid of the stocks of bombs?
JB: Yeah. Actually I don’t actually know why, as you say. [pause]
AS: Was this, was this dropping them in the sea?
JB: I don’t think so.
AS: Ok.
JB: No. No.
AS: It’s a, it’s a very, very long time ago.
JB: Yeah.
AS: Stornoway. That was, that’s back up to Scotland that is.
JB: Ahum?
AS: That’s a long, long way to fly. Back up to Stornoway from Woodhall Spa. And then your logbook showing for June at Waddington.
JB: Yes.
AS: Oh and a cook’s tour.
JB: Ah.
AS: Tell me all about cook’s tour. Please.
JB: Er -
AS: June the 26th 1945. Cook’s tour.
[pause]
JB: Gosh, er no it’s not.
JB: That says Gladbach, Cologne, Koblenz, Frankfurt, Darmstadt, Mannheim, Saarbrucken.
JB: Ahum
AS: That’s a real -
JB: Yes.
AS: Round, round robin.
JB: It is isn’t it?
AS: Was that to, to see all the damage?
JB: It looks like it really because as you say by the scatter of it. Yes. Yeah
AS: But nothing particularly sticks in your mind?
JB: No.
AS: From that.
JB: No.
AS: Ok. So -
[pause]
JB: Which one is that?
AS: This is still, this is the middle of July now.
JB: Ah huh.
AS: Loran cross country sticks out on that one.
JB: Ahum.
AS: So by that time do you recall the loran system being put in your, in your aircraft?
JB: Um.
AS: Long range navigation.
JB: Oh gosh. [pause]. What other ones are there there?
AS: There’s a bullseye.
JB: Ah huh.
AS: H2S cross country.
JB: Yeah
AS: Good lord. Formation flying and quick landings. Nine aircraft in three minutes.
[laughs]
AS: Now that is dangerous.
JB: Yes. That was going one.
AS: That is dangerous. Yeah.
JB: Yes. Yes. By Jove.
AS: One every twenty seconds.
JB: That took some doing you know. Now you mention it. Obviously, it was done.
AS: Ahum.
JB: You know. Yes. What’s this one here?
AS: High level bombing.
JB: Ah huh.
AS: It’s practice I think.
JB: Yes. That’s, that, that’s the only time that happened isn’t it? There.
AS: I think so. I certainly wouldn’t like to do it too often.
JB: No. Yeah but that’s, yeah.
AS: Maybe best not to look back on that one.
JB: It is. Yeah.
AS: Circuits and bumps with a Squadron Leader [Sawley]
JB: Ahum.
AS: The thing that, that stands out, is, is how much flying you did after the war-
JB: After the war.
AS: Was over. Just keeping current.
JB: Yes. Yeah. Yes. It is.
AS: So it seems the -
JB: Yes.
AS: The squadron very much wanted to be on top line even though it was peacetime.
JB: Yes. Yes. Yes.
AS: And did you, can you remember, you stay together as a crew over this period or did people start to drift away?
JB: Exactly. I can’t remember.
AS: Ok.
JB: No. [pause] Yes. No.
AS: And then a trip to, in September, still on 617. A trip to Gatow. Can you remember, can you remember flying to Berlin?
JB: Gatow.
AS: Ahum.
JB: Yeah [pause] No. No.
AS: Not to worry. Ok.
JB: ‘Cause that’s East Germany.
AS: It is now yes, well it was then, yes. It, yeah, it was one of the airfields, that was one of the airfields, that’s one of the airfields for the Berlin airlift wasn’t it? Gatow.
JB: Yes.
AS: I think.
JB: Gosh. Yes.
AS: No worries. So lots and lots of keeping -
JB: Ahum yes.
AS: Keeping current.
JB: Keeping. Yes. Same again.
AS: Ok.
JB: Yeah.
AS: All on 617.
JB: Ahum.
AS: B flight.
JB: Ahum.
AS: So, who was, who was the OC of 617 at that stage?
JB: I should have him down here on the signature, signatures.
AS: Ok. I can read your signature. I can’t read that one.
JB: Ahum.
AS: It doesn’t matter. It’s just - ah there we go. Operation Dodge to Bari. Can you tell me -
JB: Ahum.
AS: A little about Operation Dodge?
JB: Dodge.
AS: Yeah. This is down to Italy to um -
JB: To Bari in Italy.
AS: Yeah. And what were you doing there?
JB: There’s only Bari, I think it still is, Bari is only one that we ever went to um and the odd thing is that sometimes you went down to Bari and of course it’s on the east side.
AS: Ahum.
JB: So the thing is there that if we actually got there then the weather closed down. The, the mountains down the centre of Italy, you had to get to ten thousand feet above. You had to be able to fly at ten thousand feet or you couldn’t go.
AS: Ahum.
JB: And what happened was that on many occasions we got down there and then we landed in Bari and then to come home we couldn’t because of the ten thousand feet mountains. We couldn’t. We couldn’t actually, there was no means unless on the way and anyway we never did it. We used to go down and around because obviously that was quite a long way so of course we couldn’t do it.
AS: So you were, so you were flying down there on Operation Dodge.
JB: Yes.
AS: And was this to bring the prisoners of war back?
JB: To, yes, or to take our chappies home.
AS: Ahum.
JB: Who, who were actually had been down there on duty and to get them home quickly.
AS: The eighth army?
JB: Yeah, well no, more the, more the RAF personnel. Not so much the army. Yes, yeah.
AS: So how many people could you take at a time or did you take at a time?
JB: I think it would be about thirty in a Lanc. It meant that, the thing was that you were only taking some down this side and some on that side, feet inwards you see so that it was actually a very poor idea really but it was a means to an end. You know. You could do it.
AS: A bit like Ryanair nowadays.
JB: [laughs] Yeah, yes. These are, that’s the same is it?
AS: Yeah, I think so. And then we see some, some flights as a, as a passenger and a couple of flights as an engineer.
JB: Oh.
AS: On duty.
JB: [laughs] That was, that’s, they’re all the same sort of mixture are they?
AS: Yeah [local flying?] and we’re now up to, to January ’46.
JB: Oh.
AS: When -
JB: Ahum.
AS: I think. Do you, you’re down there as SHQ RAF station Waddington so, so had you come off the squadron by then?
JB: By then, well I’m at a squadron at Waddington.
AS: Ok.
JB: So I must have been involved in some way. Yes.
AS: And then in January ’46 you were posted away from Bomber Command to 1333.
JB: Transport.
AS: Transport TSCU. What’s, what’s that?
JB: TS.
AS: CU. Something. Conversion unit I suppose?
JB: Ahum.
JB: At Syerston again. Back to Syerston.
JB: Back to Syerston oh. Oh.
AS: So that was a conversion unit.
JB: Ah huh.
AS: And you were then crewed on Dakotas.
JB: Oh that’s also Syerston.
AS: Yeah.
JB: Yes. Yeah.
AS: For, for local flying.
JB: Yeah. That was, that was at the very end actually. That’s -
AS: Ahum.
JB: That was in, yeah.
AS: And so by, by the end of May -
JB: Ahum.
AS: You’d finished flying with the, the Royal Air Force.
JB: Ah huh.
AS: Or so you thought.
JB: I was Transport Command. Was it?
AS: Yeah.
JB: Yeah.
AS: So you thought you’d finished flying with the Royal Air Force but sometime later -
JB: Oh.
AS: In, was it 1999? I think -
[laughs]
AS: You flew again with the air force. What was all that about? Can you tell me about that?
JB: Now that there actually is, was that the Battle of Britain?
AS: Yeah. Battle of Britain Memorial Flight.
JB: Yes.
AS: RAF Coningsby. And in your logbook.
JB: Yes.
AS: Is probably the most famous Lancaster of them all.
JB: Yes it was.
AS: So, so you’ve flown in the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Lancaster.
JB: Yes. Yes.
AS: Gosh.
JB: Yeah. That’s right [laughs] Yes. That was the last time. Yeah
AS: That must have brought some memories back.
JB: Oh yeah. Yes, I mean it er that, that was the, I mean I think actually I had come out to Syerston especially for this. Yes. Gosh.
AS: How long did you stay in the air force after you’d finished flying and what did you do?
JB: I left. I left, I left the air force and I went back, I went back to the company that I worked for when I joined and I wasn’t, I was annoyed with them because I went back to the same job as I was doing before I joined up and I, I never really got on with the manager. He and I just didn’t, didn’t, didn’t mix and I actually, I left the company and I went back to a previous company that I had been associated with and I only stayed there only for a short time because I then, I always remember ‘cause I was, I was married then and I, I, I started going to the other side of Glasgow. I was travelling, leaving home at seven o’clock in the morning and not getting home till about seven o’clock at night because that was the only job that seemed to be available and I, and in the end actually I -
[pause]
And I’m just trying to remember what happened.
AS: Ahum.
JB: Because I always remember I was working down by the Clyde, is the river Clyde and I can remember, the one thing that I remember is something that that happened and I missed it and I missed it really annoyingly because what happened was that this factory that I worked for there was another shipyard adjoining and this shipyard adjoining was launching a ship. Well, all the time I’d worked on the Clyde I had never seen a launching of a ship and I remember that that particular company was launching a ship this particular day and I told the people that I was associated working for that I must, I must see that and you know, what happened and I’ve been baffled by it ever since and I’m still baffled today is that I never knew why I missed it and it was launched and I actually was, I was there, I was there and for some reason somebody diverted to me which must have been something important to, to miss it because obviously everything was lined up for me to see it and I, and I missed it. I’m still, and so I never saw a launch.
AS: But you got the navigation right.
JB: [laughs]
AS: You were in the right place at the right time.
JB: [laughs]
JB: It was amazing.
AS: Was it - I know, I know operation flying was a dangerous business and non-operational flying too but was it difficult to adjust? Did you miss it? Did you miss the air force life and particularly the flying or did you just file it away and get on with the next stage of your life?
JB: That second.
AS: The second one
JB: The second one yeah. It, it actually, you could say it was the same that happened with that launch. For some reason I mean I actually I missed the launch and I also missed other things as well afterwards and they never, it never, it never happened, you know. Something in life that didn’t happen and never will.
AS: You’ve never seen a ship launch.
JB: That’s right. Yeah.
AS: We talked earlier about the crew dispersing.
JB: Yeah.
AS: And you losing contact with most except for -
JB: Ahum.
AS: Your bomb aimer, yet you, I think you’ve come to the 50/61 Squadron Association and that has become quite important to you. When -
JB: Yes.
AS: When did you start coming in the, in to that reunion if you like? That memories -
JB: Yes.
AS: Side of life?
[pause]
JB: I went, I went back actually. I went back to the position I was in to work for a manager that I didn’t like.
AS: Ahum.
JB: That manager that I didn’t like and he didn’t have a very good opinion of me. So that was where things sort of didn’t happen. That’s right it didn’t go that way it went that way and that’s what happened and I went back to, right back to the sort of beginning.
AS: And just and parked the air force side of your life for-
JB: Yes.
AS: For a long time.
JB: Yeah. Yeah.
AS: But then, then at some stage you got involved with the squadron association didn’t you?
JB: Yes.
AS: Your tie there. And has that been fun? Has that been good? To meet other Bomber Command veterans and talk to them?
JB: I’m just, I’m just trying to think actually um I must have, I must have met some.
AS: Ahum.
JB: Yes I must have met some but I don’t. There seems to be a sort of a bit of a, well there wasn’t a join it was more something that should have happened and didn’t happen.
AS: Yeah.
JB: If you like, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
AS: Right. Well we’ll pause the tape there and then perhaps we can -
JB: Yes.
AS: Have a look at some of your navigation log.
JB: Right. Yes.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jamie Barr
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Sutch
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-31
Format
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02:26:09 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarrJ150731, PBarrJ1506
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Description
An account of the resource
Jim Barr grew up in Scotland and worked as an apprentice engineer before volunteering for the Royal Air Force. He trained as a navigator in South Africa and flew operations with 61 Squadron. He describes what it was like to be a navigator with Bomber Command and what it was like to re-enter civilian life after the war.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
South Africa
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
12 OTU
1661 HCU
61 Squadron
617 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
Cook’s tour
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
Gee
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Manchester
military service conditions
navigator
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Chipping Warden
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Woodhall Spa
RAF Wyton
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/476/8358/PBrettDT1501.2.jpg
118e663bc5324bf07e5a67487e6467b1
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/476/8358/ABrettD150522.2.mp3
81384cf913618625f74e822cf9a8f9c1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Brett, Dennis
Dennis T Brett
D T Brett
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Brett, DT
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Dennis Brett (b. 1924) and four photographs. He served as an air frame mechanic at RAF Carnaby.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Dennis Brett and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-22
2015-07-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MJ: It’s on.
DTB: Dennis T Brett. Born 4 9 24. RAF service 12 11 42 to 5 3 47. Tested and found to have mechanical ability and so trained as a flight mechanic airframe at RAF Locking. Served mainly in Yorkshire at Driffield on Martinets. Leconfield, Lissett, Holme on Spalding Moor and Carnaby. Carnaby -
[machine pause]
MJ: Go on.
DTB: Carnaby was used for emergency landings along with two others, Woodbridge and Manston. They were known colloquially as crash ‘dromes. A wide variety of English and American aircraft was seen at Carnaby and on very foggy nights FIDO was in operation. Soon after the war ended I was taken on a low level flight in a Halifax to see the extent of damage inflicted on German cities by aircraft of Bomber Command. My last six months of service was spent in Italy, Egypt and Palestine with a Dakota squadron of Transport Command. Right. In wartime Britain there were three emergency landing grounds a little inland from the east coast. They were Manson, Woodbridge and, in the north, Carnaby, about three miles from Bridlington in Yorkshire. Their purpose was to allow damaged aircraft, sometimes with injured crew, to land if necessary without warning. To facilitate this the runways were large. Carnaby’s being three miles long and three runways wide. The soft bituminous surface was to minimise friction caused by a rough landing. When I arrived [pause] we saw and serviced a variety of aircraft. English and American. Can you put that off?
[machine pause]
We saw and serviced a variety of aircraft. English and American. The US crews were not noted for their navigational skills. I recall seeing the three twin-engined Whirlwinds the crew of which seemed to be lost. One pilot remarked, ‘We thought we were in North Devon.’ When a damaged aircraft landed our fire crews rushed to extinguish any flames. The armourers checked for bombs and guns. And the riggers took, looked for any physical damage to the aircraft and then towed the aircraft away to dispersal. We were puzzled one night when after landing safely the crew got out of the aircraft and ran. They soon told us that there was a long delay fused bomb on board likely to explode at any moment. It was the armourers of course who had to be there to defuse the bomb before other workers were allowed near the aircraft. Can we?
[machine paused]
Sometimes I was on special night duty all alone in a small hut at one end of the runway. This was more than a mile away from the control tower. My bed was two or three feet away from an electrical installation which bore the warning, “Danger 11000 volts.” We were always ready to receive aircraft but on bombing nights we were especially alert. I’m sorry.
[machine paused]
My job was then to operate the lighting system. On receiving an order from the control tower I would pull a switch to turn on the sodium funnel lights. These were spaced in a narrowing V shape embedded near the foot of the runway and were a guide for aircraft approaching to land. The lights were arranged in the shape of a funnel. In bad weather and when many aircraft were expected the order would be given to ‘strike arc’ and I then had to pull a switch to activate the searchlight system. Searchlights were positioned, one each side of the runway, at its entrance. They were angled towards each other to form a cross so that incoming aircraft could enter through the triangular shape below the cross. Bad weather was a great danger to airmen returning tired and cold from a raid lasting eight or more hours. Fog was a major problem. As a counter measure a system of pipework called FIDO, Fog Instantaneous Dispersal Operation had been installed along each side of the runway. In operation, petrol was pumped through the holes in the pipework, then ignited to produce flames several feet high. This was meant to clear the fog and it probably did so but at the time I thought its great value was that the flames could be seen by pilots trying to land. In such circumstances a successful landing was a tremendous relief for the aircrew. This might seem far-fetched but I was a personal witness to a memorable incident when a Lancaster had come in to a halt the crew got out and some of them actually kissed the ground. Reminders of the darker side of war were frequent. Crash landings were a common sight. A faulty undercarriage was usually the cause and the result was what we called a belly landing. Some aircraft burst into flames when landing. Others were already on fire as they approached. The sight of a red gun turret is one that I cannot forget. Even our medical officer was seen to turn pale sometimes. But there was also a lighter side to life at Carnaby. Sometimes a bad landing would cause an aircraft to bounce not just once but in a continuing series from which the pilot could not escape until the laws of physics allowed. We called this a kangaroo landing. The Yorkshire winter was harsh. One night the wind caused my eyes to water and the intense cold froze my tears so that I could not open my eyes. This was only momentary and a good rub was all that was needed to solve the problem. The snow lay thick everywhere and this emboldened the local rats to come rather too close to our hut. We shot at them with our sten guns but I doubt whether we hit any.
[machine paused]
Our commanding officer was a very experienced pilot who was known to have seen much action in the war. His free and easy manner was in direct contrast to the usual strictly authoritarian attitude of the administrators. He would sometimes sit outside the control tower with his legs dangling through the railings swinging them to and fro. In this way he was exhibiting his persona for all to see. I happened to be on duty when he decided to take a Sunday afternoon trip with his young son. After I’d pulled away the chocks and motioned him out he asked me if I would like to come too and I gladly agreed. One fine day I noticed a large number of, to me, unidentified aircraft all flying eastwards. They were not in any kind of formation. They were towing gliders. These gliders were at a certain angle to my vision so that only one wing was visible. A strange sight. It soon became obvious to us that the invasion of Normandy had begun. The gliders were, I believe, Horsas and the planes were DC3, better known as Dakotas. I was soon to become much more familiar with them when I was transferred to a Dakota squadron. At the end of the war I was invited to go up in a Halifax to retrace some of the routes our bombers had taken and to witness the devastation. We flew low over a number of cities including Rotterdam which had been bombed by the Germans and battle areas such as Arnhem and Aachen. Our pilot was on a high, in high spirits after the ending of hostilities. He would approach a city from a certain height and dive bomb it at an angle of about forty five degrees. Then over the city he would pull up sharply out of the dive. This continuing sensation was too much for me and I was physically sick for most of the flight home and my muscles ached for a week afterwards. I still have a reluctance to fly though I had to do so in 1981 when I was seconded to the City University of New York. To my regret the airline did not provide a parachute. Large four-engined, large four-engined aircraft such as the Stirling, Halifax, Lancaster and Fortress were designed for level flight not aerobatics and for a Halifax to be flown in such a vigorous way says much for the strength and construction of this, this aircraft. My experience at Carnaby remained long in my memory. Forty years later I would sometimes wake up in the night. In my dream a large four-engined bomber coming in towards me to crash land.
[machine paused]
Well my elder brother was in Coastal Command and used to fly as the wireless operator rear gunner in a Beaufort and I think it was in 1942 when the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau German battleships made a dash through the channel. He was engaged in torpedoing the Scharnhorst but in the process he was badly wounded and received shrapnel in various parts of the body and face and managed to survive. The gun turret was badly damaged and for this service he was awarded the mention in dispatches. I think that’s all that can be said there.
MJ: What was your actual job in the RAF?
DTB: Well I was what was known as a flight mechanic airframe otherwise known as a rigger and we were responsible for the whole of the aircraft physically other than the engine and the guns. And we had daily inspections for which we had to sign from the safety point of view. We had to check brakes, hydraulics, the movement of the flaps, rudder, elevators and of course petrol filling and so on and we had to make body work repairs where necessary.
MJ: How did you do that?
DTB: Whether it, well on early aircraft it would be on [pause] covered in, the early aircraft, I think the wimpy as well was covered in cloth. Muslin or, not muslin, no. Irish linen and we learned how to make a repair for that. On most of the aircraft they were metal and we had to make a hole and rivet all around it and patch them in that way but that was it. The whole of the aircraft had to be inspected and many points inspected and then signed for for the safety of the pilot. The Lancaster which was the best. It was the fastest and could carry the heaviest bomb load. The Halifax was next and then the other one. I can’t remember the name of it you know.
MJ: Yeah. I can’t remember exactly what one it is but I know which one you mean so, yeah.
DTB: But of course, you know there are other aircraft as well. The Mosquito was the fastest aircraft in that war and it was a bomber and it was a fighter bomber.
MJ: Yeah. Didn’t they take off from the airports with the flame?
DTB: No. It wasn’t a biplane. No.
MJ: No. No. They used to take off in the fog didn’t they?
DTB: There were Swordfish in the early days, I think the Swordfish was in that battle with the Scharnhorst as well as the Beauforts.
MJ: Yeah.
DTB: Well there we are.
MJ: Here’s the end of the interview with Dennis Brett at Ruskington. The International Bomber Command would like to thank him for his recording on the date of the 22nd of May 2015. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dennis Brett
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mick Jeffery
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-22
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABrettD150522, PBrettDT1501
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
Dennis was born in 1924 and joined the Royal Air Force in November 1942. He trained as a flight mechanic airframe at RAF Locking and was responsible for the whole of the aircraft, apart from the engines and the guns. Dennis explained the emergency landing grounds at RAF Manston, RAF Woodbridge and RAF Carnaby, which were wider to allow damaged aircraft to land safely. His last six months of service were spent in Italy, Egypt and Palestine with a C-47 squadron of Transport Command.
Sometimes Dennis was on special night duty alone in a hut a mile away from the control tower. His job was to operate the lighting system on receiving an order from the control tower. He referred to a memorable incident when a Lancaster landed safely and some of the crew kissed the ground.
When the invasion of Normandy began Dennis was transferred to a C-47 squadron. At the end of the war he went up in a Halifax to retrace some of the routes the bombers had taken and to witness the devastation. He left the RAF in 1947. In 1981 Dennis was seconded to the City University of New York.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
United States
Egypt
Italy
Middle East
England--Kent
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
England--Somerset
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:18:19 audio recording
bombing
C-47
control tower
Cook’s tour
FIDO
fitter airframe
flight mechanic
ground crew
Halifax
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Carnaby
RAF Locking
RAF Manston
RAF Woodbridge
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/480/8363/ABrooksR151029.2.mp3
d0d059fc3e408586027f57552f30d5d2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Brooks, Edward
Edward Brooks
E Brooks
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Brooks, E
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Rita Brooks. Widow of Flight Lieutentant Edward Brooks DFC, DFM who flew operations with 12 and 460 Squadrons.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Rita Brooks and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS Right we’re in business. We’re ready to start. Ok, thank you.
RB Right. My late husband was Flight Lieutenant Edward Brooks DFC, DFM. Now Ted hadn’t meant to join the RAF. He’d already started work as an office boy in London and had joined the Home Guard, but he wanted to join the Army. So he went to the army recruiting office and all was going well, until with the innocence of youth, he stated that he wish to join the Oxford and Bucks, the regiment in which his uncle Company Sergeant Major Edward Brooks had been awarded the Victoria Cross in 1917. The recruiting sergeant looked up and said : ‘You can’t pick and choose sonny.” To which Ted replied : ‘Right, I’ll go and join the RAF.’ This he promptly did. His date of enlistment February 1941. But he was dismayed to learn that they were unable to take him immediately, but they gave him a lapel badge to indicate that he’d enlisted and that they would let him know. The months passed and although he must have been very busy, working during the day and Home Guard duties at night, he just wanted to be in the service, so after several months had elapsed he wrote to the Air Ministry [Shuffle of paper]. Two months later, two weeks later he was at Uxbridge. There followed the initial three months training course at Blackpool. There they were billeted in a former seaside boarding house. They had to surrender their ration books to the landlady and they were always hungry. Their meals were served in the dining room, but they soon realised that the Corporal in charge of the bul- billet had all his meals in the kitchen with the landlady, and was enjoying much better fare. On the day they all left, to register their dissatisfaction [turning of page] they nailed a kipper to the underside of the dining room table. Another memory of Blackpool was, before leaving they were lined up, sleeves rolled up and given multiple vaccinations. Then they were allowed to go home on leave before their next posting. Ted collapsed on arriving home and taken by ambulance to RAF Henley hospital, they lived nearby, where Vaccine Fever was diagnosed, and where he spent most of his leave. The chapter Ted contributed to “Lancaster At War Two” as wireless operator follows his training up to OTU where he said he met the RAAF. At some time during those previous months his mother, always concerned for her sons comfort, was worried that his regulations shirts were too rough. So she bought him officer’s shirts which she sent to him and which he wore on a night out to the local town. He was, however, picked up by the MPs and put on a charge for this offence. This was quickly followed by an individual posting to Northern Ireland to serve on a small anti-aircraft observation unit miles from anywhere. The isolation of this unit and the ever-present threat of the IRA made him sleep with his rifle alongside. They were a small group of young lads unused to cooking for themselves, so each one took their turn to be cook for the day buying meat and vegetables from the local farmers. Stew was the main meal of the day but Ted was horrified to see how it was being cooked. Meat and vegetables were thrown into a large saucepan, potatoes, carrots etc just as they had been lifted from the ground complete with the soil. Ted said that he’d do the cooking. Then to OTU at Litchfield where they crewed up. Five of the crew were Australian with the pilot being Murray Brown. I had the privilege of knowing Murray Brown and John Clarke, his 460 Squadron pilot in post war years when they visited the UK. The crew were posted to 12 Squadron at Wickenby, a satellite station of Binbrook. The Commanding Officer was Group Captain Huey Edwards, who was the CO of Binbrook [alarm sounding in background]. Many post war years later, Ted saw an article by Group Captain Basil Crummy[?] who said he was Wickenby’s first CO. Ted said he’s confirm the facts by writing to Sir Huey Edwards VC who kindly wrote at some length explaining that for a short while he was in charge of Binbrook, Wickenby and one other station, Basil Crummy taking over from him soon after. I realised a little while ago that these letters from Sir Huey should be in an appropriate archive, and I donated them to the RAAF Museum, Melbourne. And so Ted’s first com- tour commenced on 13th May 1943. The target being Bochum. The operation had to be abandoned after crossing the enemy coast due to an outer engine catching fire , and they had decided that would have to ditch but Murray went into a steep dive and mercifully the fire went out. When looking through their list of t- targets it illustrated Bomber Commands Battle of the Ruhr, known to the crews as Happy Valley. Also Peenemunde, Berlin, Cologne, Turin, Genoa and Hamburg. [Turning of paper]. Many years later in the 1950s we sailed along the River Elbe to Hamburg. As we reached our moorings Ted looked at the other bank where there was a large sign Blohm and Voss. Ted said that the shipyard had been their aiming point. Their tour finished with Stuttgart on 8th October 1943. After returning from Mannheim they were on their crew bus on their way from dispersal to the interrogation room when it collided with a petrol tanker which had broken down on the perimeter track. They were all pitched forward off their seats and were dazed for some seconds, Ted had been smoking at the time but when he came to he realised that it was still in his mouth but broken in half. They hadn’t realised, however, that a member of the crew had been pitched out they continued. Some considerable time later when he[stuttered] he they continued but some con - considerable time later [stutters] he appeared in the briefing room and amongst other things was asked for his escape rations. He said : ‘He couldn’t eat, he couldn’t as he’d had to eat them on the long trek back.’ On their leave on the 22nd of October 43, the crew made a BBC broadcast entitled : “Lancaster crew describes an operation.” I found in Ted’s papers a receipt from the BBC for three pound. Ted was then posted to Lindholme instructing. He said that one night in the mess Squadron Leader John Clarke came up to him and said that he was forming a crew to do a second tour, would Ted like to join him? ‘Yes,’ he said and so to his posting to Binbrook and 460 Squadron. The first operation there was the 22nd/23rd May on Dortmund and the last 16th September, Rhine which was the night of on [incomplete]. [Turning of page] The pattern of this tour was essentially supporting the invasion. On D-Day 5th/6th June 44, their target was the Normandy coastal bat- batteries in which over a thousand aircraft were involved. Their target being the battery St Martin de Varreville. The following night the important six way junction near, road junction near Bayeux and the Forest de Cereza. There followed oil plants, flying bomb sites culminating in their final operation 16th/17th September Arnhem. Bomber Commands main operations that night were in support of the following days landings. Several surrounding airfields were to be bombed 46- 460’s target was Rhine. However John Clarke’s crew was selected to remain behind after bombing Rhine [cough]. They were secretly briefed to carry out a low level reconnaissance over Arnhem, and told because of the importance [sneeze] of this assignment the radio equipment would be modified to take quartz crystals, so that the tuning would be spot on to transmit their observations. Just as Ted was about to enter the aircraft the Signals Officer drew up thrusting two small objects into his hands. ‘I don’t know how to use them,’ said Ted. ‘Neither do I,’ said he, ‘but you’ve plenty of time to find out.’ So ended his operational career. During this time, I’m not sure whether it was 12 or 460 Ted had been feeling very unwell during the day but they were told that would be taking two high ranking army officers on their night’s operations as they wished to observe the German anti-aircraft defences. During the flight Ted felt very sick but there was no suitable receptacle. He looked down and by his position he saw two upturned army caps, these he suitably filled and then despatched them down the flare shute. On landing the two chaps searched for their caps but they were told by the crew that very strange things happen at night. He always suffered from severe migraines in post war years, this he attributed to the fact that on one trip shrapnel had penetrated the fuselage and severed his oxygen tube. He didn’t tell his pilot at the time as he knew it’d been very dangerous to reduce height and did not do so until it was safe. However he said the pain in his head was just unimaginable. After Binbrook, I believe it was back to Lindholme, there they would take ground crews to see the destruction in Germany. On one separate occasion the flu had to [laugh] the crew had to fly to the Luftwaffe base on the Island of Sylt, purpose unknown. They dined in the mess with the German officers and I understand it was rather a tense situation. After time he flew to Brussels but burnt a tyre, burst a tyre on landing. They were there one month before a replacement tyre was obtained. He said that he had volunteered for Tiger Force and that he had crewed up. I believe that this was the plan for the RAF and USAF bombing campaign of Ger- of Japan. And I found confirmation of this in his 460 records. Finally, in summer 1946 he was demobbed at Swinderby. You will note that in the 12 Squadron crew list I didn’t named the mid-upper gummer gunner. This is because on July 28th/29th they were briefed for Cologne and during the outward flight he had collapsed very distressed and had to be physically restrained by other crew members. The operation had to be abandoned and they returned to base after dropping their bombs in the sea. [Sharp turn of page]. After that they had several replacement MUGs. He finally left the service in August 1945 from RAF Swinderby.
AS Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Rita Brooks
Creator
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Adam Sadler
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-29
Format
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00:14:54 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABrooksR151029
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Description
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Rita’s late husband was Flight Lieutenant Edward Brooks DFC, DFM. He was in the Home Guard before he enlisted with the Royal Air Force in February 1941, and sometime later went to RAF Uxbridge. Following his training at Blackpool the recruits were billeted in a former seaside boarding house. Whilst at Blackpool they had their vaccinations before going home on leave. On reaching home Ted collapsed and was diagnosed with vaccine fever and he spent most of his leave in RAF Kenley hospital.
Ted was trained as a wireless operator and was posted to Northern Ireland to serve on a small antiaircraft observation unit. Next he went to Operational Training Units at RAF Litchfield where they crewed up. His crew was posted to 12 Squadron at RAF Wickenby. Ted’s first tour commenced on 13 May 1943. The operation had to be cancelled due to an engine catching fire. The pilot managed to extinguish the fire by going into a steep dive. Targets included the Ruhr, Berlin, Peenemünde, Cologne, Turin, Genoa and Hamburg. On the 8 October 1943 the tour ended with an operation to Stuttgart. On their leave on 22 October 1943 the crew made a BBC broadcast entitled 'Lancaster crew describes an operation'. Ted was then posted to RAF Lindholme as an instructor but then joined a second crew and was posted to RAF Binbrook with 460 Squadron. On D-Day they supported the landings by bombing batteries. In August 1945 Ted finally left the service from RAF Swinderby.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Northern Ireland
France
Germany
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Staffordshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Stuttgart
Italy--Genoa
Italy--Turin
England--Lancashire
England--Blackpool
Germany--Peenemünde
Italy
Great Britain
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1943-05-13
1943-10-22
1943-10-08
1945-08
1941-02
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
12 Squadron
460 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Binbrook
RAF Kenley
RAF Lichfield
RAF Lindholme
RAF Uxbridge
RAF Wickenby
Tiger force
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/490/8374/PChineryDR1601.1.jpg
24ea6131656a7cc40953bc11c4d29e72
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/490/8374/AChineryDR160824.1.mp3
a0e263be47ec05ddaa15883d376f78fa
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Chinery, Donald
Donald Robert Chinery
D R Chinery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Chinery, DR
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Donald Chinery (1921 - 2017, 1465877 Royal Air Force) his log book, and the log book of J Millar. Donald Chinery flew operations as an air gunner with 61 Squadron.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Pam Winter and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Don Chinery today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Mr Chinery’s home, and it is the 24th August 2016. Thank you, Donald, for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Roger Winter, Don’s son-in-law, and Pam Winter, his daughter.
JH: Don, can you tell me when and where you were born, and something of your family and early years before the war? Can you tell me when you were born?
PW: When were you born?
DC: Well, I was in a little village called Upper Sheringham, that was just up the hill from Sheringham.
JH: And what date? What’s your birth date? Your birth date?
DC: If I told you, you’d know as much as I do [laughs].
RW: Give it a try, Don!
DC: 14th of August 1921, that was when I was born.
PW: He knows!
JH: And what did you do before the war? What were you doing before the war?
DC: Would you believe it, I was a baker.
RW: At Lushes, Lushes in Sheringham.
DC: Lushes at Sheringham which was right on the corner of [unclear] Street.
RW: And they had a tea room, didn’t they? Lushes Bakery and tea room.
DC: Yeah.
JH: OK, and did you have family at home, did you have brothers or sisters?
DC: I’ve got 2 brothers and 2 sisters.
JH: Were they in the family business?
DC: I don’t know where they are now, mind you.
JH: No, so you were the only one who was the baker? You were the only baker?
DC: Yeah, when I left school.
JH: Right.
DC: That was what I straightaway went to do.
JH: And so how old were you when you joined the war?
DC: When I joined the Air Force?
JH: Yes.
DC: Oh, I dunno, 20-odd?
RW: Yes, what year did you join?
DC: I joined in, er [pause], once I got in the air.
RW: No, this is only your flying, when did you actually join the RAF?
DC: I joined in 1960.
RW: No.
DC: 60 something.
RW: No, it would’ve been 1939, 1940?
DC: In 1940, I reckon, I joined up in 1942.
RW: Right.
DC: I reckon it was.
RW: Yep, and what did you do when you first joined up?
DC: [laughing] Got up to anything I could!
JH: Where did you do your training?
DC: I was trained the right way.
RW: Yeah.
JH: Where did you do your training?
RW: Where was your first station? Where was your first aerodrome?
DC: My first aerodrome was in Norfolk, RAF station Bircham Newton.
RW: Yes? Oh, North Norfolk, North Norfolk near King’s Lynn.
DC: I forget, it was in North Norfolk.
RW: Yeah, near King’s Lynn, near King’s Lynn.
DC: Yeah, next door. Just over the border actually.
RW: Yep, yep.
JH: And what did you do there? What did you do at that station?
DC: What did I do?
JH: Yes, what were you doing there?
DC: Like everybody else, nothing [unclear] [laughs].
RW: But was it basic training, was it? Basic training?
DC: Yeah [pause], I had several different aerodromes I was on, I forget half of them.
RW: Yeah quite. So what did you do before you became an aircrew?
DC: Well I was just an ordinary AC plonk, and I volunteered then for -
RW: Aircrew.
DC: Aircrew [pause].
RW: Yeah, so that’s early in ’43 then, [pause] so your first log entry is in August ’43? August 1943? [pause]. Up in an Anson, an old Anson?
DC: An old Anson.
RW: Yeah, yeah?
DC: I remember [unclear], I can.
RW: When you were flying in a Stirling. When you were flying in a Stirling.
DC: When I was flying.
RW: Stirling, the Stirling Bomber.
DC: Yeah.
RW: What happened?
DC: Bloody old thing!
RW: What happened?
DC: I got out of it.
RW: What happened before that?
DC: Well, [unclear] the old Stirling?
RW: Yeah, you were coming in to land with the Stirling.
DC: Well, come in, just touched down, and the undercarriage just packed up. So it landed, finished up on its belly and we finished up in somebody’s cabbage patch! Is that what you were getting at?
RW: Yeah, and did you go over - it went straight over the A10 I think, didn’t you?
DC: Yeah [pause], er, I had some good times.
RW: Yep, and was the aeroplane OK after that? Was the aeroplane OK?
DC: Yeah, apart from the undercarriage [laughs].
RW: It says in your log book you wrecked it, wrecked the aeroplane it says here.
DC: Yeah [pause] bits and pieces, here and there [laughs].
RW: Are there any other?
JH: What positions was he in, in that airplane?
RW: Where were you in the aeroplane?
DC: Where was I when? When it went down?
RW: Yeah, when you were flying.
DC: I was rear gunner, what was known as ‘Tail End Charlie’ [laughs].
RW: Where - so when you done your training, you then went straight to 61 Squadron?
DC: No, I was at, er -
RW: 196 Squadron? 196?
DC: 196 Squadron, yeah, that was at Waterbeach.
RW: Right, ok, and then from Waterbeach, you went onto 61 Squadron?
DC: Yeah.
RW: OK. What was it like being on an operational squadron for the first time?
DC: Bit scary.
RW: And you met lots of new friends?
DC: [unclear] Bit scary when I got onto squadron work, I mean before you got on a squadron, you was doing square bashing out here and yonder [pause].
RW: Yeah, so there was nobody shooting back at you then? There was nobody shooting back at that time before then?
DC: [laughs].
RW: Hmm, can you remember your first operational trip?
DC: My first operational – I think it was [pause],[unclear], I don’t remember which me first was .
RW: Schweinfurt? Schweinfurt?
DC: Schweinfurt, that’s it yeah.
RW: Ball-bearing factory, ball-bearing factory [emphasis].
DC: Skellingthorpe.
RW: Right, and you had some bombs catching fire on that trip? Your log, it says you had some incendiaries on fire, do you remember?
DC: Oh, I forget all that.
RW: Right [pause], can you remember the rest of the crew?
DC: I can remember the- er mid-upper gunner as though it was yesterday.
RW: What was his name?
DC: His name was Miller, Jimmy, Jimmy Miller and we had a terrible time one day, and we got diverted, and we got diverted up Scotland, a little place called Ayr, and ‘course we got – we got stuck there with the weather. And Jimmy Miller, my mid-upper gunner, he originated from Motherwell, which was just down the road from where we were diverted to, so of course we got stuck there and he asked if he could go home, ‘cause he only lived down the road, he said from here to Motherwell and they said ‘yes’. And I shall never forget his old father, the old man, we sat in a pub in Motherwell, couldn’t have knocked a pint back, Jimmy, I said to mid-upper gunner, the old fella looked at me and said [adopts Scottish accent] ‘Jimmy don’t drink’ ‘cause I had [unclear] quick. I said ‘no, he don’t drink anything alcoholic – I like a pint meself’, I said, ‘he’ll always have a glass of lemonade [unclear]’, the old man looked and said [adopts Scottish accent], ‘I’ll tek you doon ma clog’ so he took us to his Working Man’s Club, took old boy as well – Jimmy.
RW: How old was Jimmy at the time? How old would Jimmy be?
DC: He was my mid-upper gunner.
RW: Yeah, how old would he be, mid, early twenties?
DC: Same age as me.
RW: Right.
DC: Round about, you know, give or take a week or two. I shall never forget his old father, [adopts Scottish accent] ‘Jimmy don’t drink!’ [laughs].
RW: So did he buy Jimmy a beer?
DC: I think it was a long and straight one! ‘He don’t drink any alcohol’, I said, ‘I love a pint meself’, I says, ‘he’ll always have a glass of lemonade’. Old fella looked, ‘I’ll drink him down the club’, he says [laughs], so he took us down the Working Man’s Club, bought me a pint (which I loved) and he bought [laughs] a glass of lemonade for Jimmy!
RW: What did Jimmy say afterwards?
DC: Well, what did he call me afterwards, Jimmy [laughs], I’d hate to repeat his words!
JH: Did you play darts? Darts, in the pub? Did you play darts in the pub?
DC: Did I [unclear] play anything
RW: What
DC: I shall never forget that pub in Waterbeach
RW: In Waterbeach?
DC: Yeah, when I was stationed there. Went in this pub and [pause] ordered what I wanted to drink, [unclear] we was up Scotland at the time. Our man looked at me and said ‘Jimmy don’t drink?’ I can imagine him saying it now. ‘Course I had [unclear], I’d like a pint meself and he’ll always have a glass of lemonade, ginger beer. Old fella says ‘I’ll take you down me club’ and he took us down the Working Man’s Club. He bought me a pint and he got a glass of lemonade for Jimmy.
RW: Are there any of the Operations you done that really stand out? Are there any of the Operations that really stand out to you?
DC: You had all sorts of courses that you had to go through before you really started on Operations, but I shall never forget that time we went up Scotland.
RW: Are there any of the raids that particularly you remember?
DC: Remember?
RW: Any of the trips you did?
DC: Did I remember any [unclear] trips I done?
RW: Well, you got one here where you were badly shot up.
DC: Practically remember them all .
RW: Mmm, yeah, and is this the one where you couldn’t get over Beachy Head? When you’d been to Toulouse?
DC: Where?
RW: Toulouse? In France.
DC: Yeah, we didn’t mind them little trips, we always reckoned we got an easy one if we got a little trip over – just over Channel
RW: Yeah [pause] Do you remember having a collision over the target? Do you remember here you had a collision?
DC: That one, yeah.
RW: In France again, in Tours.
DC: [unclear] mess up then [pause].
JH: What happened?
RW: Can you remember what happened?
DC: No.
RW: Right, but you bent the aeroplane it says in your Log Book. It says you bent the aeroplane.
DC: Er, when I finished up in the allotments.
RW: Yeah [whispers] different one [pause].
DC: In the middle of these allotments and they sent a bloody tractor out.
RW: Right.
DC: An old-fashioned tractor.
RW: That was at Waterbeach?
DC: Yeah, and they hooked us up and pulled us off his cabbage patch [pause].
RW: Do you remember getting diverted to Exeter?
DC: No, we got diverted to Exeter didn’t we.
RW: Yeah, do you remember that?
DC: Yeah [pause] but I told you the one at Waterbeach was the best [unclear].
RW: [laughs] Right.
JH: Did you see Jimmy Miller?
DC: I was once at the bar and he [unclear] the other.
JH: Oh right.
DC: And I was well known at this pub and they says ‘tell you what, you can’t pull a pint from where you are’, ‘I know I can’t but I can still get one and I’m going to pull one, I’m gonna lean over the counter and put the pump’, I says, ‘I’m going to push it, I’m gonna push one’ and that’s the only time I remember pushing a pint.
RW: What – can you remember the first time you went to Berlin?
DC: First time I went to Berlin, can I remember?
RW: Yeah.
DC: No I can’t, not offhand.
RW: But would you have been apprehensive about going? Going all that distance? It was a long way to go wasn’t it?
DC: It what?
RW: A long flight.
DC: Yeah, I shall never forget Jimmy’s father, I shall [unclear] old fella [adopts Scottish accent] ‘Jimmy don’t drink’. No, no Jimmy didn’t drink, he’d drink me under the table.
JH: When you went up in the aeroplane, was it cold? Were you cold?
DC: That was bloody cold [laughs].
JH: Right.
DC: [unclear] when you got all your flying gear on, you got, er, an inner suit which was, er, more silk than anything, then you got another one on top o’ that, and then you got another one on top and you finished off you’d got about five layers of clothes on before you got all your flying gear on.
JH: And you were still cold, still cold?
DC: Bloody cold [laughs].
RW: He reckons his flying helmet made him bald! Is that right? Your flying helmet caused you to lose your hair.
DC: That’s what took me hair away.
PW: There’s a picture of him and my mum getting married there somewhere and he hadn’t got much hair then!
RW: He was the only one in the family with no hair!
PW: He’s still got more than you, Rog!
RW: No comment! Can you remember anything about D-Day? Can you remember about the trips you did on D-Day?
DC: D-Day?
RW: Yes.
DC: I don’t remember D-Day, I remember VJ-Day.
RW: Yes, but on D-Day you were involved in two Operations and it must’ve been very busy with all the ships landing and lots of noise, ships firing salvos. Can you remember anything?
DC: No.
RW: No? [pause]
JH: What do you remember then, do you remember VJ – VJ Day?
DC: [unclear] of equipment, I was [unclear] when we was getting demobbed they was asking for different things and you just sat them on the counter and pushed them to one side and when it come to the Log Book, I slapped mine on the counter and instead of pushing it over the counter. I pushed it back and it dropped in me kit bag.
RW: Is that how you managed to get Jimmy’s as well. You got Jimmy’s Log Book as well. You got Jimmy Miller’s Log Book as well. So did you do the same with Jimmy? [pause].
RW: He’s got no idea how he got it.
PW: No, he’s never sort of said.
DC: He has [unclear] Jimmy Miller
JH: Why, why have you got his book? Why have you [emphasis] got that?
DC: I haven’t got his book.
RW: No, you’ve got his Log Book.
DC: This was his.
RW: Yes.
JH: Why have you got it?
DC: Well, it was a souvenir as far as I was concerned and remembers old Jimmy Miller.
RW: Yes.
DC: ‘Cause he was, he was.
JH: Your friend.
DC: He was a good mate o’ mine [pause] and I told you when he took me home, I shall never forget that.
PW: So he obviously died then.
JH: Did you see Jimmy after the war? Jimmy, did Jimmy see you after the war?
DC: I lost all touch wi’ him.
JH: You lost touch?
DC: Yeah.
RW: Shame.
JH: He went back to Scotland! [laughs].
DC: [unclear] lost – lost touch with one another [pause], but there was just this – I remember this – old Jimmy Miller [pause].
RW: Can you remember the trip you did in the, in the [pause] -
DC: Old Jimmy Miller.
RW: Yeah.
DC: Never forget him.
RW: Do you remember the trip you did after the – after hostilities had finished you went on a sight-seeing tour, you took a Wimpey with Flying Officer Ratcliffe and you went on a sight-seeing tour, to Cologne? And you took ground crew I think, did you? Did you take some ground crew with you?
JH: Do you remember? [pause]
RW: The top one [pause].
PW: Has he got his magnifying glass?
DC: They – they was er trips we done after hostilities ceased, we took any member of ground crew and then let them go over and see the -
RW: What had happened?
DC: Devastation and so forth.
RW: And you took a photograph of Cologne Cathedral didn’t you? [pause}.
DC: I tell you where you not said anything about this, [spells out word] K O L N.
RW: Yeah, Cologne, spelt in the German.
DC: That’s how it was spelt there.
RW: Yep.
DC: But that ain’t how we spelt it!
RW: No, No, but you took a photograph, I think, of the cathedral? You took a photograph of Koln Cathedral?
DC: I, I [pause] I remember after the war finished and we was there taking people, ground crew, air crew, anybody over to see the devastation, various places, I [unclear] down here but can’t read them properly, there’s Antwerp, Bonn, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Essen [pause] Monchengladbach, [pause], Heysel and Tottenbank I think, [laughs], that’s worth a bob or two that is.
RW: A lot of memories there Don. So how did you end up at Bassingbourn? How did you end up at Bassingbourn?
DC: How did I end up, I dunno, I just ended up there when they asked you where you’d like to be stationed, you know, these places, I put in for Bassingbourn.
RW: But wasn’t that an American base at that time? Weren’t the Americans there at the time?
DC: [unclear].
RW: No, Bassingbourn, was it, I thought the Americans were there.
DC: Oh yeah [pause] they were dead funny they was. You went in [unclear] the mess hall, ‘course you queued up and got your grub, sat down, these Yankees used to come in and get their, mixed the bloody lot together, slinging [unclear] banging on the table, [unclear] the table and they just got down – you never, never think people be like eating grub, they used to go tackle it, go into it as though they’d never seen a plate o’ grub at all [laughs].
RW: So.
PW: Why would he have got stationed there if it was an American base?
RW: I dunno. So what were the Air Force doing there with the Americans there? What was the RAF doing on an American base?
DC: I know we went to the American – they were stationed there, we went to visit.
RW: Yeah, oh right.
DC: Of course when I went to visit we, well they got their plate of grub there, bang [emphasis] their bloody knife down stuck in the table [laughs].
PW: But he was stationed there, wasn’t he Roger?
RW: Yeah. How long were you at Bassingbourn? How long were you there?
DC: At Bassingbourn?
RW: Yeah, were you demobbed from Bassingbourn? Were you demobbed from Bassingbourn?
DC: Yeah and you know where I went then, where I went for demob.
RW: No?
DC: I went to Wembley.
RW: Right.
DC: We went to Wembley Stadium and went down and all your clothes were laid about, and you took what clothes you want and home you went.
RW: Right.
DC: Oh I – [pause] people have asked me many, many, many times if I enjoyed it, I enjoyed every minute I was in the Air Force because I wanted to go in the Air Force when I was a child, as I told you before I think [pause].
PW: I think he was the only one in his family that went in the Forces.
RW: What was it like when you qualified and went on to 61 Squadron and were given the best aeroplane in the world to go and fly? How did that feel?
DC: Well, you can’t explain it really, you got in the aircraft – I might’ve told you before you slid down a – like a plank which was over the rear wheel and into your turret. You get in the turret and let your legs drop in, and then you had to feel behind you, you could shut the doors, close the doors behind you and they’d lock and you was stuck in there [pause].
RW: What did you do before you went on an Operation, what did the crew do before you got into the aeroplane?
DC: Sat there smoking.
RW: Then what happened? When you got to the aeroplane?
DC: When you got in the aeroplane?
RW: No, before you got to the aero – before you climbed aboard you all stood round –
DC: [laughs] you know [unclear], put a bottle on your feet [unclear], your feet one on top o’ the other and you sat there, and you got to light a candle and hand it out o’ the bottle. If you didn’t light the candle, you had to pay for the next round [laughs] not [unclear] me.
RW: But what happened when you all got to their aeroplane before you went up the ladder, you all stood around the wheel?
DC: Having a natter and then you got up and you walked round the back, and you looked at the old tail wheel and you just had a piddle on that! All piddled on the tail wheel.
RW: And that was the whole crew did that? The whole crew did that?
DC: Yeah.
PW: Well, I’ve never heard that before.
DC: Lovely [pause] - I’d go back again, I will never forget it as long as I live when we landed in Scotland, when Jimmy took me home.
RW: What about one day when the phone rang and you answered the phone, you answered the phone one day? What was the Group Captain’s name?
DC: What was the?
RW: Group Captain, when he rang you up, you answered the telephone [pause] do you remember?
DC: No.
RW: You answered the telephone and pretended you were somebody else.
DC: No.
RW: No? What was the Station Commander’s name? Station Commander on say 61 Squadron? Who was the Station Commander?
DC: Bomber Harris.
RW: [laughs] yeah.
DC: He was the Station Commander [pause], wouldn’t ask any member of the crew to do anything he wouldn’t do himself.
RW: Yep and I believe you met Churchill once? You met Churchill once?
DC: Went where?
RW: Winston Churchill.
DC: Oh.
RW: You met him once .
DC: Oh Winston, he was a good old warmonger he was.
PW: Didn’t you meet Douglas Bader as well? No?
[pause]
RW: Did you get in the hoops at Bassingbourn? Did you get in the hoops at Bassingbourn?
DC: Yeah [pause].
RW: And was it the Waggon and Horses, the Waggon, that used to be –
DC: Waggon and Horses .
RW: Yes? Just outside the aerodrome. It was a pub built at the same time as the airfield.
DC: We never used to go to main gates, had to go there, we used to nip through a gap in the hedge, straight in old boozer [laughs].
RW: So what was it like when you’d finished with 61 Squadron and you were out of all that danger? How did all that feel?
DC: Well, felt great relief, you ain’t got o’ go through all that again. I said, I enjoyed every minute of flying.
[pause]
JH: How many tours, how many missions did you do?
RW: How many trips did you do, how many operational trips?
DC: How many did I do? Actually I done one too many [pause] instead of doing thirty, I went on to do another twenty, carried straight on, so I done fifty like that, and our governor, he said we want you to do one more trip, there’s an extra-special one. Well it was extra-special, we went to Peenemunde I think it was, that was the name of it and that was, er, Hitler’s birthday but when we dropped the bombs he’s scarpered, he’d gone into Berlin.
RW: Was that, did you overfly that and go to North Africa? Did you overfly and then go to North Africa?
DC: Yeah [pause].
RW: Can you remember that, look – where you’d been to Tours and you’d had the collision and went to Exeter. What does that say there? In your Log.
DC: Two engines out of commission, port main plane bent [pause] awarded a DFM. You know what that is?
RW: What’s that?
DC: DFM, Distinguished Flying Medal.
RW: Right, any idea what happened to that?
DC: That’s about here somewhere.
PW: I don’t think it is, that one’s missing isn’t it Roger?
RW: Hmmm. Who presented you with the medal Don?
PW: Hang on Roger, he’s looking for it, there’s a box there with three in there I think, but not the one Roger’s mentioned.
DC: Load o’ ol’ rubbish that is.
RW: What, the box? I made that! [laughs] That’s his darts box.
RW: Don, who presented you with the DFM? Who gave it to you?
DC: Can’t hear you.
PW: How many medals are in that box, Roger? Four, yes that’s all I’ve ever seen.
RW: They’re only just ordinary – [background noise]. Can you remember who awarded the DFM to you. Can you remember who pinned it on you, who presented it?
DC: Whatsername got the DFM, yeah, can’t think of his name now, he was a Welsh boy if I remember rightly.
RW: What, who got the DFM? Who won it or did you get it? [pause]. We can’t find any record of him receiving that. When I spoke to the chap about the Legion d’Honneur, he told me what medals he’d been awarded and that wasn’t one of them, so that’s a bit of a mystery, but Pam seems to think her aunt had it and turned it into a brooch, but we don’t know.
RW: When you were demobbed what did you do after that?
DC: What did I do after I got demobbed? I went back down in the baking trade for a time and then I got talking to a bloke in a boozer, he was a manager of the Atlas and I got [unclear] and he says,‘you’re a silly fool doing what you are, why don’t you come down and work [unclear]’, I said, ‘I don’ wanna come down to work as I don’ wanna do no shift work’. He said, ‘you come down here and I’ll give you a job, you won’t have to do shift work, I’ll put you straight on day work’ and he did put me straight on day work.
RW: That was the local asbestos cement factory. And you ended up there over 25 years, you got a long service award. You got a long service award at the Atlas?
DC: I got a – we had a bloke what worked down the Atlas, we used to call him Flipper, he used to walk [makes hand slap noise] and one foot used to - slap, slap, slap – but if you was walking behind him on any day you got [unclear] bloody water.
RW: [laughs] He wouldn’t creep up on you, would he? You’d hear him coming!
DC: Slap, his old foot used to go.
PW: He worked at the bakers in Royston when he first came out or when they first got married, he used to get up at four o’clock in the morning, and cycle four miles every day to get to the bakers, and unfortunately the habit of getting up at the crack of sparrows has never gone away. He’s up here and they’re supposed to help him get dressed and stuff in the mornings, they come to get him up, he’s up and dressed and sometimes –
RW: When he worked at the Atlas, he was always there over an hour before he need be in the morning, always.
PW: Habit of a lifetime.
RW: But he doesn’t remember being married or anything really.
PW: Well, he never, ever talked about my mum after she died, it was like he totally switched that bit of his life off.
RW: So then, didn’t you do ten-pin bowling when you were at the Atlas, they had a ten-pin bowling team.
DC: When I worked down the Atlas.
RW: You went ten-pin bowling.
DC: Yeah.
RW: You had a team from –
DC: Used to go down Mill Road.
RW: And Stevenage, Stevenage?
DC: We used to go to Stevenage then we got in at Mill Road
RW: That’s now a John Lewis store, it’s one of the depots.
PW: Warehouse.
RW: Is it still?
PW: I wouldn’t have thought so now they’ve got the big one at Trumpington.
RW: But you were quite good at it, you were quite good at ten-pin bowling, you were quite good at it, ten-pin bowling.
DC: Yeah.
RW: Did you win any trophies?
DC: Tom Burgess was manager there and I used to go fishing with his son, and he got on to me, why bike up Rawston, all [unclear] when you could have a job down the works, why don’t you come down works. I said, ‘I don’t want shift work’, he says, ‘you come down there you won’t do shift work, put you straight on day work’ and I went straight on day work.
RW: Better money as well, more money? Paid better than baking? Pay was better than baking? The pay was better than the bakehouse?
DC: It was.
RW: And nearer home, closer to home as well.
DC: Yeah, it was on my doorstep, weren’t it.
RW: Yep, what else did you do when you retired, no, before you retired, you were something to do with the church lads’ brigade at one time.
DC: Yeah.
RW: Do you remember any of that?
DC: I remember that quite well [pause].
RW: Can you remember any stories?
DC: I had a – they gave me a peaked cap, which I’d never worn in me life, this very peaked cap on, these church lads got marching down road and I had to walk infront.
RW: But you had the swagger stick, you had a cane.
DC: Yeah [unclear] a little stick.
JH: Ask him if he remembers any of his church lads.
RW: I was one of them! We’re all quite incestuous because my uncle is Pam’s godfather and my uncle played the - pumped the organ for their wedding, drinking a bottle of beer whilst he was doing it [laughs]. What about – you played football as well.
DC: I remember Jackie Woods playing football. We always called Jackie Woods when he was playing football – we used to call him the ‘ankle tapper’, oh he’d be a devil coming up behind you, get your foot out and he’d just give a tweak of his foot and hit yer ankle.
RW: His wife lives here now.
JH: Oh.
RW: And her granddaughter is one of the carers [laughs], amazing! And she’s in her nineties, yep. Do you remember any of the football outings or anything? Football outings?
DC: Do I remember any outings?
RW: No?
DC: No, can’t remember anything.
RW: There was a lot of people from the British Queen used to be in the team I think.
DC: British Queen?
RW: Yeah.
DC: Where’s that?
[everyone laughs]
RW: You spent enough hours in there [pause].
DC: Norman Clark, I remember him.
RW: Bert Gibson? Bert Gibson?
DC: [laughs] Bert.
RW: He was the landlord.
DC: Used to bang on the back of that old seat, Miriam would look in. ‘Bring us a lump of bread and cheese’, that’s what he used to tell Miriam, she [unclear] ‘here y’are father’, bring him a plate, got a great slice of bread about that thick and a bloody great onion, he used to [unclear] have a lump [unclear] bloody great onion and -
RW: But he was a landlord during the war and he wouldn’t serve Americans.
JH: Oh dear.
RW: He didn’t refuse them, they would come in and say ‘can I have a pint of beer?’ he’d say, ‘I’ve just sold the last pint of beer’ or ‘my last pint of beer’ which he was correct, he had just served a pint of beer, so he didn’t refuse them he just the wrong or different words so they assumed he hadn’t got any beer left, but he refused to serve Americans [laughs], yes [pause].
PW: What’s he doing Roger?
RW: He’s just had his drink.
JH: I’d like to thank you, Donald, for allowing me to record this interview today, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Donald Chinery
Creator
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Judy Hodgson
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-24
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AChineryDR160824, PChineryDR1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Format
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00:56:09 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Don Chinery was born in Upper Sherringham on the 14th August 1921, and after working as a Baker, he joined the Royal Airforce in 1942 serving as a Rear Gunner.
His first station was RAF Bircham Newton, where he did his training, and flew in Stirlings and Ansons.
He tells a story about how his Stirling landed and the undercarriage did not work, he mentions how he went over the A10 and landed in somebody’s ‘cabbage patch’.
After training, he went straight to 196 Squadron at Waterbeach, and then moved on to 61 Squadron, where he served on Lancasters.
His first operation was the ball bearing factory at Schweinfurt, but also completed operations to Antwerp, Bonn, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Essen, Heysel and Monchengladback, as well as taking part in operations on D-Day.
After completing 51 Operations, Don returned to his first job as a baker.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Belgium--Antwerp
Belgium--Laeken
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
Germany
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Germany--Schweinfurt
England--Stevenage
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Herefordshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
196 Squadron
61 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Cook’s tour
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Bircham Newton
RAF Waterbeach
Stirling
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8746/PGoodmanLS1501.2.jpg
4d6c119b0afafd239cd1395cc73a9296
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8746/AGoodmanLS160407.1.mp3
7215a8a462ca34501fb64632597de4b4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Goodman, Benny
Lawrence Seymour Goodman
L S Goodman
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Goodman, LS
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Squadron Leader Lawrence 'Benny' Goodman (1920 - 2021, 1382530, 123893 Royal Air Force) and a memoir covering his activities from 1939 to 1945. He flew 30 operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Benny Goodman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today we’re in Bracknell talking to Benny Goodman about his experiences in the RAF and today is the 7th of April 2016 and Benny is going to start off with his earliest recollections going through to what he did after the war. So what do you remember first Benny?
LBSG: When the war broke out you mean?
CB: No. When you, your earliest recollections of life.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: In the family.
LBSG: We lived, we’re Londoners from a long way back and I remember I was born in Maida Vale and lived there for the first five or six years of my life and then we moved to Hampstead and we lived there and we were still there when the war broke out.
CB: Keep going.
LBSG: Yes. I was -
CB: So you went to school locally.
LBSG: No.
CB: Right.
LBSG: I was a boarder. I was away at school.
CB: Where were you at school?
LBSG: In Herne Bay.
CB: In Herne Bay.
LBSG: Herne Bay College. Yes.
CB: Right. And if you just keep going on what you -
LBSG: Well, I left, yes, because my father -
CB: So -
LBSG: Had, I’ll keep going, an interest in an electrical engineering factory in Birmingham. It was considered that I should go up there and study at night and work during the day in the factory. I did this and found it fairly hard going doing, doing both things because there was no, very little free time. However, in September 1939 we all listened to a broadcast by the prime minister who told us that we were at war with Germany and so that of course made quite a difference to me. I decided to contact my parents. I was about a hundred miles from London at the time and discuss with my father what I wanted to do. I was only eight/nineteen, eighteen or nineteen at the time. It was agreed that I would go home and I decided I wanted to join the RAF. My father backed me up. My mother was horrified but in the end I went to a recruiting office at, in Brent, North London. It was the nearest RAF one and did all the necessary things to make sure that I would get in, get in to the RAF. Of course I said I wanted to be a pilot. And the officer, it was a flying officer who interviewed me raised his eyebrows. I didn’t really realise what that meant and I noticed he’d put down on the form that he was filling in for me ACH ACH/GD and I thought that meant that I was definitely going to start training as a pilot immediately. Of course nothing could be further from the truth. In due course I went for a general medical and when I passed that I was sent across to the RAF section to have an air crew medical which I passed and then we were, we had to be attested as we were volunteers and so we all had a little ceremony within the medical centre. About twenty of us took the oath of allegiance to the king and the crown and all the rest of it. I was then sent on leave for a little while, a few weeks, and got my call up papers and I thought this is it. I’m going to be a pilot in two weeks. Didn’t quite turn out like that. I went to Cardington, kitted out and we did a bit of marching which wasn’t really on the agenda. We didn’t realise we were there until we were posted and eventually, after about ten days we packed our kit bags and were marched off to a railway station and of course nobody had any idea where we were going but we ended up in Bridgenorth and we, and it was snowy, it was snowing, I beg your pardon and the roads were quite icy but we had to march up the hill from the station at Bridgnorth to Bridgenorth RAF camp and it was quite slippery but we all got to the top and we were all very wet behind the ears there’s no doubt about it. We had a flight sergeant barking at us and we ended up in a hut, about twenty of us, well maybe fifteen in a hut and there we went through six weeks of square bashing of every sort, type and description you could imagine. There was a corporal to every hut and he had a bunk to himself in the hut which was, part of our duty was to sweep his bunk out every day and make the bed and we did that of course. We had to. And we had various other delightful jobs as you can imagine. I can remember spending I think a week in the cookhouse peeling potatoes which didn’t impress me very much with, as you can imagine. However, we eventually got a posting, I and another chap and we were told we would be going to RAF Abingdon and we knew that was a straight through course on Whitleys. By straight through I mean you did ground school, you flew a Tiger Moth, and then an Anson and then a Whitley. So we had every hope that we were going to be on that course. There was no reason to suppose that we wouldn’t be. Things turned out rather differently. Instead of that we were sent to a dugout on the airfield and there was a nissen hut there with six beds in it. No, no sheets, no pillow cases, of course. Just blankets that didn’t smell very good and the latrine, latrines had to be dug out and there we lived for about six months and all thoughts of being pilots, we had become ground gunners. We didn’t know it until, until we had to learn all about ground gunning and how to take to pieces a cow gun, that’s a Coventry ordinance work gun, a Lewis watercool gun and so on and we did that pretty well because we were, we had to do it day and night we would, and the only part I remember, of course we had to name every part we, we’d handled but the only part name I can remember was the rear sear retainer keeper and I cannot tell you why I remember it nor do I really remember where it fitted. However, we were there for about six months and we were both quite fed up with it because it was four hours on and two hours off during the day and at night we had to patrol around the airfield every night and challenge anybody who was walking there. Well, we had to challenge, ask for the password and if we didn’t get the right answer we were supposed to arrest them. However, there was no option, we did have to challenge them because the station duty officer and the warrant officer and the orderly officer all at various times would come around with a couple of NCOs and if we didn’t challenge them we were in trouble and we challenged many more airmen and it was winter and they were trying to find their way in the blackout to a Whitley they were working on with their tool bag in one hand and to have some idiot airman like me challenge them saying, ‘Stop. Who goes there,’ And believe me we used to get some fruity juicy answers. We never got a password from them [laughs]. It would be more, would have been more than our life was worth if we’d really tried to try to stop them. I mean it would have been ridiculous. We could, we could see that. And the fear at the time when I was a ground gunner was that the Germans would invade by air at dawn. So at dawn we had to march around the perimeter track with, we always had, by the way one bullet up the spout. That’s one loaded in the, ready for firing but the safety catch was on and we marched around the perimeter track and for some reason we had to wear oxygen, I beg your pardon, gas masks. I don’t know why because if the Germans were dropping paratroops I can’t believe they were going to drop with gasmasks on. However, that was the order so that was it. Our food was brought out in hay boxes. Breakfast, lunch and a sort of tea, dinner and of course as warm as the hay boxes, hay boxes may have been by the time they got around to us on the other side of the airfield in a dugout it wasn’t very warm. But it is extraordinary, you get used to everything and after about three or four months this other chap and I had given up all hopes of becoming pilots or training and in our off duty by the way, we had a off duty half day and if we were lucky occasionally we’d get a pass in to the, go and walk into the local town, in Abingdon but if you could get past the SPs because you went to go, if you went to go out they had to inspect every inch of you and if they didn’t quite like the way your tie was tied or one button didn’t look properly shined then you were sent back and told to come back again so sometimes you never really got your half day off. I don’t know, we got used to it, it’s extraordinary and because we were very young I don’t think we took, I don’t think we got too, took too much umbridge about it and as, I think I’ve just said this other chap and I had given up any idea of being trained as pilots. We thought here we are and here we are going to stay but one day we were sent for and we wondered what we’d done but we were told we were going on a pilot’s course and we couldn’t believe it. It wasn’t at RAF Abingdon because the Whitley course that we saw was the last one that they, the straight through course was the last one and so we never had any hope of getting on that and we, I was sent to, this chap and I separated unfortunately. We’d become good friends by that time but we were separated and I went to a reception centre at Stratford on Avon. Now remember I’d been a ground gunner for six months and my uniform, to say the least, was tatty because we spent day and night in the, well, at night, walking around but days in the gun pit and sometimes we had, when we were off we, it wasn’t, we couldn’t get undressed, we slept in it. I mean everybody did and of course I looked really tatty and crumpled. There was no doubt about that. I walked in to the orderly room in the reception area at Stratford on Avon and somebody barked, ‘Airman you’re on a charge.’ And I looked around. I want to interrupt.
CB: Right.
LBSG: I want to interrupt.
CB: Oh you do. Right.
[machine pause]
LBSG: Am I? Are you ready? ‘Airman. You’re on a charge,’ and I looked around and there was nobody else, well there were people sitting there and working but and I thought, I think he means me. [laughs] So I got up to the desk and said, ‘Yes sergeant, reporting in.’ He said, ‘You’re on a charge airman’. And I said, well I thought it was me so I, ‘You are a disgrace to the service. Look at you.’ And I probably was because my uniform had been slept in and it was probably a bit muddy. I cleaned it as much as I could but you only had one uniform, two shirts, two pairs of socks and I think two pairs of underpants and that’s all we owned in life and no, certainly no other battle dress or cap and I tried to explain to him what I’d been and why I looked that way and he wasn’t in the least interested. He said, ‘You’re a disgrace to the service. You should have kept yourself in better condition.’ Something like that. In better condition. So I was, the next morning, I was, my feet hadn’t touched the ground there really. The next morning I was marched into the OCs office, he was a flying officer and he read the charge, he said, ‘What about this, Goodman?’ And I said, ‘Well sir what I’ve said is true. I’ve slept in the uniform in gun pits and all the rest of it and we don’t have another uniform to wear and that’s why it looks this way.’ He said, Well I do appreciate it but I’m afraid,’ he had to, obviously had to say this, ‘My sergeant is correct and you look very scruffy,’ and so on and so. I got seven days jankers but I wasn’t offered another uniform or another cap or anything so I still walked about. Anyhow, I was there for not very long fortunately. A week or ten days I think and I was posted to, to ITW at Cambridge. And this was really the beginning of the training for, to be a pilot and we had six weeks of intensive ground school and most of us passed out. One or two chaps failed and I felt jolly sorry for them because they had tried hard but I got through and by this time my friend, I think I’ve said this already, had separated. He’d gone somewhere else. I got through and really I’m afraid that’s what interested me most and I was sent to number 17 AFTS at Peterborough and did about forty eight or fifty hours flying on a Tiger Moth and when it was over I was sent for. I’m afraid I’ve always thought, the first thing that comes into my head, what have I done wrong because as an airmen there’s never any good news. If you are sent for there’s usually something wrong. And the flight commander who was a flight lieutenant said to me, ‘You’ve been posted to RAF Woodley,’ which was the Miles factory, the Miles, where they made the Magister, and all, the Martinet and all the rest of them and, ‘You’re going to be an instructor.’ And I thought I don’t want to be an instructor. I’ve only just learned to fly the Tiger Moth. So I went there and we flew Magisters and they of course had brakes and flaps which I’d never seen before in my life and I was supposed to be training as an instructor. Anyhow, I did my, I really didn’t want to be one but I was there and then when I finished there I was posted to, I was going sorry, I was going to Clyffe Pypard, I think it was, as a holding unit. Ok.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I went to Clyffe Pypard as a holding unit and from there we were posted to Canada and I was told I was going to, I think it was 33 SFTS at Carberry and I thought I was going to be instructor but I wasn’t. I was going to learn to fly twin engine aircraft. Ansons. And that for me, I’d only flown these very light aircraft and for me that was a real, absolutely really big step up and so I did the Anson course and night flying was included. The first time I’d ever done that and I must say I take my hat off to the instructor who was with me for the first night circuit because I was all over the sky. We weren’t taught instrument flying by the way, before, they, so I was looking at the instruments at night for the first time, the artificial horizon and all the rest of it never having really relied on them in my day training so for the first circuit I was all over the place, I really was, up and down and the chap just sat there. The instructor. He didn’t say a word and I thought this can’t be right but I managed a circuit of some sort and we came in on the approach and he gave me a couple of hints on the approach. Of course although I’d done quite a bit of flying on the Anson by this time in the day to do it first time at night first time you’d ever flown at night was quite different. Anyhow, I made some sort of a landing and he said, ‘Well yes, ok you’ll be on the, you’ll be flying tomorrow. Night. And if you improve a bit you can go solo,’ and the thought of that terrified me [laughs] I thought I’ve hardly had real control of the aircraft all the time and if the chap hadn’t, the instructor hadn’t been sitting next to me I think I might have given up but I knew he was there if I made any mistakes. Anyhow, we did a few circuits and bumps and he said, ‘You can go solo,’ and again the thought terrified me but he, he sent me solo and I think we did, I did one circuit and bump and came in and he said, ‘Ok Goodman. That’s fine. And you’ll be on the roster tomorrow night, on the duty, you’ll be flying tomorrow night,’ and you’ll do whatever else it was and that’s, ‘You’re well forward now on your completed training.’ And we had to do three cross countries as navigator because in those days when Hampdens were still flying and Wellingtons, I think Whitleys had stopped by then but Hampdens certainly were flying and Wellingtons were. The first fifteen trips when you were on an operational squadron was usually, not always, flown as a navigator, by the chap who was a pilot. I suppose they didn’t, in those days, have enough. I don’t know why but anyhow I think that was part of the pre-war influence. I don’t know. There were observers but I’m not sure in those days how fully trained as navigators they were. Please forgive me all you people who wear O’s because they were highly distinguished and my own bomb aimer was an observer and he used to put me in my place [laughs] that is when I got on the squadron, in 617, yeah. So I passed there and then I thought well I am on my way back now surely. Not a bit of it. I was sent to RAF Kingston, Ontario as an instructor but horrifyingly I was going to instruct acting leading naval airmen. Now, I didn’t have a clue about landing on, or jinking after take-off or dive bombing or any of the things they were being trained for so the flight commander was, they were all experienced chaps except me. I’d never been on ops and during the war that was really a black mark whether you could help it or not. If you hadn’t done an operational tour not even the students looked up to you really. However, there it was and we, one of the, we had a fleet air arm chap and one or two other seasoned pilots in the flight and of course the flight commander and he took me up and it was a Harvard by the way. An important point. It was Harvards. Now, I’d never flown an aircraft with a VP prop and a retractable undercarriage. The Anson was the nearest I ever got and we had to wind the undercarriage up so you didn’t wind it up unless you were doing a cross country so it was a whole new world to me and he took me up and he said, ‘Well you’re an instructor and that’s the end of it but you’re going to learn to fly this,’ and after about an hour and a half again he shook me to the core, he said, ‘Ok you can go solo.’ Do this, that and the other and, ‘I’ll be watching you.’ ‘Yes you will.’ And come in and we’ll have a talk. So I took this mighty beast off, this Harvard, which was a mighty beast to me. It was a beautiful aeroplane actually. I loved flying it when I got used to it. It was fully aerobatic which was wonderful and for me it had lots of ergs. Bags of power. And so I went solo and then he took me up a couple of times and said, ‘Right. You don’t know anything about naval training but you know about, you’re an instructor so I will show you you’re, the first lesson you’ll do and then you’ll go up and do it and then the second lesson, and so on.’ And so I progressed through the syllabus and by the time I left there I was teaching them about dive bombing and jinking after take-off. Everything you would get court martialled for in the RAF but of course it was the royal, it was the Fleet Air Arm and this is what they were being taught to do. And I had a thoroughly good time. I was a pilot officer. There was no room for me in the mess so I lived in digs and I bought a car. It was a, with a dickie seat. That is, it was a two seater but it had a flap you could open at the back and two people could sit inside, outside as it were but it was wonderful. I had a car of my own. I was only twenty one. I was living in digs. And I was a flying instructor in the air force. I thought I was dreaming actually. I did. Well I had a thoroughly good time of course there’s no doubt about that when I was doing it and we were then, myself and another few chaps who’d got no operational experience were posted back to the UK to go on ops. So we went back and we went to a holding unit in Bournemouth. Oh by the way on the way back, on my first trip back, twenty four hours out we were torpedoed. Fortunately, an American destroyer took most of the torpedo, it blew up with a lot of lives lost but we got damaged. We were going around in circ, the rudder was done. We had no rudder at all and other damage was done but when they had got it all fixed up we were going around in the Atlantic at that night in circles because there was no steering gear and we all thought he’s going to come back and finish us off, that U-boat but he must have run out of torpedoes. I can think of no other reason for him not sinking us. I really can’t. So we went back to Halifax, Nova Scotia and then we were put on a train which we stayed on for five days. Our food was supplied and it was just the ordinary compartment. When we all wanted to clean our teeth just the ordinary passenger way, we would go and have a pee or whatever, we would go to the lavatory or there was a wash basin so we took it in turns to clean our teeth and wash ourselves but nothing like a shower or anything like that and food was given to us and we went all the way from Halifax, Nova Scotia by train to New York. I think it took five days and there we embarked, [paused] I’ve left something out, did I say we were torpedoed?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And there we embarked on the Queen Mary and we were the only, there weren’t many of us, about a dozen I think, there was a, the OC troops was an American officer, a colonel and all the troops apart from us were Americans and so we were very much in the minority on a British ship and I can remember before we sailed the OC troops called us all together in one of the big halls that the Queen Mary had obviously and there were seats there and all of us, all the officers together and he said, ‘I want you to remember this. You’re officers and if anything happens, if we’re torpedoed you will be the last to leave.’ And the other few RAF chaps and myself looked at each other because we’d just been torpedoed [laughs] and we didn’t think much of that statement frankly but we got back safely and of course we had good food, being American and we were put through quite a rigorous, I remember when we arrived on board, a rigorous American medical. The fact that we’d got our RAF medicals didn’t mean a thing to them. We had a thorough, I don’t know whether it was army, yes American army medical I suppose and they passed us fit. I often wonder what they would have done if they hadn’t passed us fit. We were, by that time we were sailing, I mean, but anyhow they passed us fit and we got back safely to the UK. I hadn’t got, I omitted to say this before, but I hadn’t got any luggage of any sort. I just had my shaving kit and I hadn’t even got my logbooks or anything. They were all in my trunk which presumed were ruined and nobody knows what happened. They didn’t know whether they’d floated out or anything and so when I got there they asked me how many flying hours I’d got. I said well you’ll have to take my word for it but I can remember them roughly and I wrote them down in my new logbook and I went to, when we got back I went to Spitalgate, Grantham for what was called a UK, sorry -
CB: It’s ok.
LBSG: Can you switch off?
CB: Yeah.
[machine paused]
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Ok. So start again.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Or continue. Yeah. So you got back yeah. When you got back.
LBSG: When I got back we were sent eventually to RAF Spitalgate which was Grantham for an acclimatisation course which meant we had to learn to fly without any lights and without any help from anywhere. You couldn’t call up, apart from at night you had a system called darkie and if you really got lost at night then you called up darkie. Switch off.
[machine paused]
LBSG: And -
CB: No. No. No. No. So when you were lost you had to do a call sign and that said?
LBSG: Did I mention night flying or what?
CB: This is night flying isn’t it? Yes.
LBSG: Yes. Could I -
CB: So say it. Go on.
LBSG: Night flying of course was rather different in the UK because there were no lights, no aids. Scattered around the country there were, not very many, a few master beacons. They flashed red symbols, I beg your pardon, Morse code characters and if you were lucky, if you were lost at night, you might see one of these but there weren’t many in the whole country but you had to do this cross country at night in Oxfords with just a ground wireless op in the back in case you got lost. He would try to get a QDM to somewhere. And I always felt very sorry for these wireless men because they weren’t aircrew. They were ground crew and they must have hated it. Anyhow, most of us managed to do, get through this without any trouble and I was sent to, to Market, Market Harborough I think it was, Market Harborough to do a Wellington, Wellington OCU and across to and began my flying on Wellington 1Cs at Saltby which was the, which was the -
CB: The OTU.
LBSG: N. It was part of the [pause] satellite.
CB: Oh yes.
LBSG: Satellite for Market Harborough. Unfortunately I fell ill and I was sent to a hospital, RAF Wroughton, and didn’t get my full flying category back for some time. I lost my crew of course. They went on flying with somebody else and then when I did get a flying category I had to, I couldn’t go straight for training. The powers that be insisted I got some flying in so I was sent to an OTU to fly the Martinet which did dummy air attacks on, rather which did air, dummy air attacks on Wellingtons for the training, to train air gunners, would-be air gunners. I made a mess of that.
CB: That’s ok. That’s fine.
LBSG: To train would-be air gunners.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: In addition to that I did the drogue towing when they had live air to air firing which never made me very comfortable because they were all UT, Under Training that is and not qualified. Whilst there I met an observer who’d also been grounded and we struck up a great friendship and when the time came for us both to get our A1G1, that is the full flying category back we got it together fortunately and we asked if we could be posted together and for some, and it was granted which was quite unusual and then we were sent to, we were sent to an RAF station and pitched in amongst a lot of other air crew and there you walked around and spoke to people and believe it or not that’s how you chose your crew. True. From there we went to -
CB: So this was at the OTU.
LBSG: OTU yes. Did I say I’d been in hospital? I did, I think.
CB: You did.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And your OTU was Silverstone.
LBSG: Yes. That’s right. From there we went to OTU at Silverstone and thence to the Lanc Finishing School at Syerston. Syerston or Syston?
CB: Syerston.
LBSG: Syerston yeah. At the end of the course I was sent for by the flight commander and the whole crew said to me, ‘What the hell have you done now, Benny?’ And I said, ‘Well I can think of nothing,’ and they all laughed and said, ‘Oh yeah.’ Of course, they didn’t believe me, of course. Anyhow, I went in and I was horrified when I went in. There was the flight commander, wing commander flying and two or three other officers, squadron leaders and a wing, I think a wing commander and I thought I really am in trouble this time and I couldn’t think of anything I’d done, for a change, that merited this show of high, high class brass as it were. Anyhow, they asked me a few questions and I realised that this had, it couldn’t be to do with something I’d done wrong and then suddenly one said to me, ‘You’ve done pretty well here Goodman and your bombing results are good and your flying’s good.’ I said, ‘Thank you sir.’ He said, ‘How would you like to join 617 squadron?’ And I said, ‘What was that sir?’ [laughs] He said, ‘How would you like to join 617 squadron?’ I said, ‘I would be delighted and I know my crew would be.’ And that’s how we got posted to 617. Shall I go on?
CB: Ahum.
LBSG: When we arrived there of course we, we felt like mice there. All the famous names that had been on the squadron. One or two were still on it and I crept around really like a little mouse. I was frightened to show my face half the time because I thought I’m a sprog crew. I’ve never been on ops. What on earth are they going to think of me? And believe it or not, well not believe it or not I think you will believe it I was made so welcome by everybody that I felt pretty good in the end. Of course we had to do the squadron training. They had the SABS bomb sight which was the only, we were and still are I believe the only squadron that has ever had that sight but if you flew properly and that’s what 617 squadron was all about then you could guarantee if not a direct hit a pretty damn close one. Damn. Is that alright. I said damn. Yeah. Have to be so careful these days.
CB: Don’t worry about it.
LBSG: Yeah. We, we got through the training successfully and I did my first trip as a second dickie or co-pilot with flying officer Bob Knights and I couldn’t have been given a better chap if I’d chosen out of a hundred. To give you the feel of his value Bob was the flight lieutenant but had a DSO awarded and all those who understand that will know the real value of the man.
CB: Absolutely.
LBSG: The flight was to La Pallice. It was a French, a French port and we bombed successfully and came back and then I went to see the wing commander, Wing Commander Tait and he said ok. He’d spoken to Bob Knights obviously and Bob said ok or, ‘ was good enough’ I suppose, I don’t know and he said, ‘Ok. You and your crew will be on the next trip.’ I went back and told and everybody jumped for joy and our next trip in fact was to Brest. The U-boat pens at Brest. And of course being a sprog crew something was bound to happen wasn’t it? And halfway across the sea, on our way the wireless op said, no, I beg your pardon the flight deck filled with smoke and I said to the wireless op, ‘What’s going on at the back?’ He said, ‘Don’t worry. Don’t worry skip. The navigator and I are trying to put out the fire.’ [laughs] ‘The radios have caught fire.’ I said, ‘Oh great.’ Remember this was our first trip. I said, ‘Well the one thing we’re not going to do is turn back. This is 617 and there’s no way we’re going to turn back so you’d better get the bloody fire out.’ And I opened my DV panel. That’s the direct vision panel and tried to get the smoke out. Of course fortunately it was daytime but it was all over the, all over the flight deck. I mean, I could just about, I couldn’t see the instruments very well and but I could see out of the side panel, of course it was open and the DV was open so we managed to fly more or less on course until they put the fire out and then we continued on the op. And if anything was going to happen I suppose it would be on a first trip. After that we, apart from enemy action everything went very well, very well on the squadron. We had some, obviously brushes one way and another with the Luftwaffe and certainly with ackack and I always remember we had a wonderful bunch of ground crew and by the way I take my hat off to them. Nobody ever thinks about the ground crew but they were there day and night, winter, summer, pouring with rain, ice, snow or very hot they were always there when we came, before we left and when we came back. Always there to usher, to wave us into our dispersal and to look after us and to find out if there were any, if there were any snags and woe betide us if we’d been damaged by flak because they said, ‘What have you done to our aeroplane? Look at the holes in it.’ or whatever it was and all very good heartedly of course and they were the cream of the, they really were the cream, as far as far as I was concerned. They were the cream. Unsung heroes all of them. I don’t know anybody who got an award and they deserve some mention but as far as I know there’s never been a mention of them and it’s so unjust. Am I taking too -
CB: That’s alright. Just stop there a mo.
LBSG: Am I taking too -
[machine pause] 4019
CB: So with the ground crew you were getting on really well with them.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah
CB: And they were another part of the family really.
LBSG: Yes. Yes. The ground crew really were another part of our family and I can never understand why there was no tribute paid to them or no mention of them at any time in the huge part they played. Without them we wouldn’t be flying. And that still applies today. We did have one or two hairy trips I suppose on, on the squadron. I can remember so vividly still we deployed after the first abortive trip to sink the Tirpitz from a Russian forward base. We did one from Lossiemouth. We did two from Lossiemouth in fact but on the first one take-off was midnight from Lossiemouth and we were all lined up around the peri track, and people were, the perimeter track and people were taking off in turn and it was nearly our turn and suddenly my, I was looking around the cockpit just finally, everything had been done but you do, probably nervousness I don’t know, will keep you thinking about something. Not nervousness I don’t mean but just to keep you thinking about something and my flight engineer he used to sit by you in the dickie seat for all ops and he’d adjust the throttles or the props or anything you wanted. Synchronise them and of course he followed up on take-off and on landing. He used to, you’d call out the settings and he’d set, just minus four, minus two whatever it was and that’s how you’d come in but he suddenly nudged me, and he was a Scotsman who never used one word if half a word would do so I thought what does he want? He suddenly nudged me and he went like this and I looked up and there was the huge undercarriage of a Lancaster heading straight for us. Straight for us. It wasn’t maybe ten or twenty feet off the ground. Fortunately they cleared us and when we got back of course we found out what had happened and it was Tony Iveson who was taking off before us and he had an engine surge on take-off and so the aircraft swung off the runway and straight towards the parked aircraft which happened to be me facing him and but for the good background training and the alertness and the crew cooperation of his, he and his flight engineer there would have been a disaster but they straightened the aircraft by levelling the propellers above the throttles and then putting them up again and Tony Iveson just cleared the top of our cockpit. Just cleared it. That’s a very good start to a long trip. It was from Lossiemouth, it was pitch dark, it was midnight I think, pouring with rain and we were going low level over the North Sea all the way to the coasting-in point at Norway. What a good start. However, apart from that we all rendezvoused over the rendezvous point over the coast, Norway at daylight just as we were told to and Wing Commander Tait was leading of course and we formed up in to the gaggle and made our way to the Tirpitz and bombed it, or tried to. Unfortunately there was a lot of cloud. They’d put up a smokescreen anyhow but in addition to that there was a lot of cloud so it was an aborted trip. Thirteen and a quarter hours in total and we brought the bombs back. The Tallboys back. So the whole trip was thirteen and a quarter hours and that was the second Tirpitz effort. The third one was a repeat of the second one but the weather was clear and we bombed and I understand that Wing Commander Tait bombed first. His bomb made a direct hit on the Tirpitz.
CB: What could you see from that height?
LBSG: I didn’t see very much because we were following a Target Direction Indicator on the [combing of the] cockpit. It was the bomb aimer who was directing. He didn’t say left or right. He was adjusting his bomb sight and as he did so the target direction indicator came up and one degree looked about that big so he could, he could really show a one degree turn and you’d try it looked so big you would try to do it but you did do it, you’d try and that’s how we we kept within five nautical miles, five miles of our airspeed fifty feet in height and of course with the TDI we had to keep absolutely directly on track and that really I was only part of the team, the pilot. There was the navigator who had to make sure that the bomb aimer had the correct winds and the right temperature and that everything was set and he had the job of making sure when the bomb was to go. The navigator was very important with all the information he had and I was just sitting there like an auto pilot following this TD, Target Direction Indicator. TDI. So really I was the least important of them all. As long as I flew the right course at the right height and the right speed the others were doing the job and there it was, that’s how it was with all 617 squadron ops. With the SABS we did practice for a low level trip but that was a very, we practiced low level at night, five hundred or a thousand feet, on resin lights. They were the very very dim lights on the rear of the, on the, how do we describe it?
[machine pause]
CB: Right we’re just talking about lights.
LBSG: Yes. We did. Can I repeat?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: We practised a gaggle at night and had to, it was called a formation at night but it was very difficult to fly. We did it on the resin lights which were on the wing root of the aircraft you were trying to formate on. It was very difficult at night with a lot of aeroplanes but we managed to do it. It was all over Lincolnshire and everybody got back safely but it was deemed too dangerous to do again.
CB: In the night.
LBSG: Yes at night. Or operationally at all. I think, I think the feeling was we might have gone at night. The whole thing at night.
CB: I see. Right.
LBSG: But there you are. We never did it and I think everybody was thankful including, I believe, the squadron commander. Of course, it was really dicey. They’re a big aeroplane to throw around at night. A Lancaster. We just tried to formate but not too closely on the resin lights which shone so dimly. But there it is.
CB: You didn’t collide. Nobody had a collision.
LBSG: No. No sir.
CB: No. Ok. So in essence the Tirpitz raids were daylight because it wasn’t practical to do it at night.
LBSG: Well night day. We took off at night.
CB: Yes. But you arrived in daylight.
LBSG: Pardon me. We coasted in about daylight. Yeah. Excuse me.
CB: Ok. So coasting in means crossing the coast.
LBSG: Crossing the coast. Yes. And that was our rendezvous point. I think I said that.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I hope. If I made any mistakes please tell me.
CB: That’s alright. Yeah.
LBSG: I don’t know, where were we? Do I need to go -
CB: So this was on the second raid.
LBSG: I finished with that.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And the third raid sank it.
CB: Yes the third raid sank it.
LBSG: Yeah. It was a repeat of the second. There’s no point going through it all again.
CB: No. Ok.
LBSG: Right. Now, what else?
CB: So after that what did you do?
LBSG: I’ll have to get my logbook out to find out.
CB: Ok. But in principal after you’d done the Tirpitz there was nothing else to do there.
LBSG: No.
CB: But you were a precision bombing squadron so -
LBSG: Yes. Yes.
CB: What were you focusing on mainly then?
LBSG: Well we always had a particular target rather than area bombing but there weren’t many terribly specialised targets like the dams or the Tirpitz but we did what we were told to do and, I hope, successfully. We did have a shot at the Mohne, and Eder or Sorpe.
CB: Sorpe.
LBSG: Sorpe dams but with no result. We had Tallboys and they were absolutely not fit for the job. It was just a shot in the dark I think but we never did any damage. Or very appreciable damage.
CB: It was too soft.
LBSG: Yes, I imagine. Yes.
CB: Because it was an earth dam.
LBSG: It wasn’t the right bomb and it was built, I think the dam, the Mohne and the Sorpe were built in different ways, I think. I don’t know.
CB: Well the Sorpe’s an earthwork dam.
LBSG: Yes. Yeah. That’s right. Yes.
CB: So it absorbs -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: The impact.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Explosion.
LBSG: I don’t know. I can tell you about -
CB: So did you go on to U-boat target pens?
LBSG: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So was that immediately after that?
LBSG: I’d better get my –
CB: Well we’ll stop for a mo anyway shall we?
LBSG: Yes. Yes.
[machine pause]
LBSG: I think October the 29th
CB: So we’re talking about the Tirpitz now.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: And the date of your, the third attempt to get it.
LBSG: Second. Second attempt.
CB: Second attempt.
LBSG: I was in hospital for the third one.
CB: Ok. So that was what date?
LBSG: 29th of October 1944.
CB: Right. Ok.
LBSG: 29th. 30th because -
CB: Yeah. Overnight. Yeah.
LBSG: We weren’t we were talking about something else weren’t we?
CB: No. No but it’s just to put that into context.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: Because it can go back.
LBSG: What do you want me to say?
CB: Yes. And so on the first raid you did what was the date of that? On the Tirpitz sortie.
LBSG: Yes. The first raid that I carried out -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Was, on the Tirpitz was on October the 29th
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: 1944.
CB: Right. And then the next one. The second one you did.
LBSG: I was in hospital so I didn’t go.
CB: You didn’t do the next one.
LBSG: I didn’t do the next one.
CB: No.
LBSG: Unfortunately.
CB: Right ok. So after the Tirpitz.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Then what did you do?
LBSG: Well it’s what -
CB: What sorties did you, were they, because you were precision bombing all the time -
LBSG: Yes. Well we went, after the Tirpitz we went after various dams. The earth dam.
CB: Oh yeah.
LBSG: At Heimbach.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And then the E&R boat pens at Ijmuiden in Holland and then -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: It was quite a long night trip in December 1944 to Perlitz which is Stettin.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: To destroy the synthetic oil plant there.
CB: Right.
LBSG: To deny the Germans fuel for their aircraft and tanks and anything else.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And that was a long trip. It was, it took twelve hours and fifty and thirty five minutes.
CB: There and back.
LBSG: There and back.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Yes. Sorry. Erase that.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: That was, it took nine hours and twenty five minutes at night.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: It was a night trip.
CB: Ok. And on the long night trips what did you do when you got hungry? Did you take food with you?
LBSG: Well we were supplied with food and coffee but -
CB: What would that be?
LBSG: But I can never remember eating anything.
CB: Oh really.
LBSG: I may have drunk some coffee. I think on the way back from the Tirpitz I did but I don’t think I ate anything at the time because we had, we had something to eat obviously before we left but there was nobody to fly the aircraft if I was going to sit there drinking coffee and having a sandwich. Of course there was one pilot and of course no autopilot.
CB: No.
LBSG: So if I decided to let go of the controls it wouldn’t be a very good idea. There was nobody else to fly it.
CB: And so after -
LBSG: People did of course. They could, you could sup coffee and you could eat a sandwich but I never really, I had coffee I think but never, never took, never had a sandwich I don’t think.
CB: And what height were you normally flying?
LBSG: I can tell, it varied. Up to eighteen thousand feet. We flew anything between twelve or fourteen and eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Are we talking about a mixture of free flowing bombs or only Tallboys?
LBSG: I’m talking about only Tallboys.
CB: Right. Ok. So in that case you needed to be a certain height for them -
LBSG: Yes. That’s right. We did. Yes.
CB: To reach the speed that was needed didn’t you?
LBSG: And we needed to be, have I mentioned it, needed the correct air speed to be flown.
CB: No. So what, so tell us the envelope you were operating.
LBSG: Well I -
CB: So the airspeed -
LBSG: I’m fairly sure, without knowing, because we were just given the bombing heights.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: That we never, we certainly never bombed less than sixteen to eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Right. And -
LBSG: Are we being recorded?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: And what airspeed would you be going, roughly?
LBSG: A hundred and twenty five I suppose. I don’t –
CB: A bit more than that.
LBSG: What with the bomb doors open?
CB: Right. That’s what I’m asking. Yeah. So you approach, what sort of speed would you cruise first of all? On the way out say. Would you -
LBSG: I don’t know.
CB: Set it at a hundred and eighty or -
LBSG: No. Pardon me. A hundred and eighty miles an hour.
CB: Yeah. Or not?
LBSG: I just cannot remember. I’m sorry.
CB: It doesn’t matter. The reason I’m asking the question -
LBSG: That’s rather fast by the sound of it but it wasn’t –
CB: I’m just getting a feel for -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: What happens in terms of going out there?
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: And then do you change speed when you’re, because you’re doing such precision bombing.
LBSG: Yes, you, well -
CB: Do you have a different speed that is lower, faster or what?
LBSG: Well when the bomb doors are open of course it slows the aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: But you do have to settle down on a speed and I can’t remember it.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And we were supposed to be within fifty feet of height and five miles an hour airspeed.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And we all kept to that.
CB: Right.
LBSG: Without no doubt.
CB: So we’re talking about there’s a very -
LBSG: Precision bomb. Precision.
CB: Yes precision is very specific -
LBSG: Absolutely.
CB: On all these things.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: That are worked out in advance are they?
LBSG: Yes. [pause] No. Sorry they’re not worked out in advance. You have to fly within five miles an hour and of course it wasn’t nautical miles then it was miles per hour.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Of airspeed and within fifty feet of height and the bomb aimer would be given a set of settings by the navigator so that he corrected for temperature and height and wind and so on as much as the navigator could do it all. Obviously -
CB: Right. Yeah.
VT: So you were just told what to -
LBSG: Yes I -
VT: The bomb aimer was telling you wasn’t he?
LBSG: I could have been an auto pilot really.
VT: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: And the important people were the bomb aimer and the navigator really.
CB: Yeah but you were actually translating those instructions into a very -
LBSG: Yes I was but yeah.
CB: Specific held, tightly held speed and height.
LBSG: Oh you had to yes.
CB: So there was a skill in that that was greater than normal bombing.
LBSG: Yes but that’s why you were on 617 squadron.
CB: Exactly.
LBSG: Are we being recorded?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Oh. Ok.
CB: That’s fine.
LBSG: Yeah. That’s why we were on 617 squadron. All of us.
CB: Yeah. Yeah
LBSG: Once we passed the test if you like.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And of course if you weren’t up to scratch although I didn’t meet anybody who wasn’t but, but you could get kicked off and that would have been terrible for anybody.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: I mean you worked hard to stay, to stay on the squadron.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: There’s no doubt. Nobody wanted to leave it.
CB: No.
LBSG: Nobody.
CB: So how much by this time how much is daylight and how much is at night?
LBSG: At this time a lot more was in daylight although we trained for night bombing and we did, as I say, quite long trips. Nine hours and twenty five minutes to Stettin, Berlitz or, as an example. That’s quite a long trip of mine.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: Yes. I don’t know the long –
CB: So what else have you got on your logbook there?
LBSG: Well, of interest on January the 12th 1945. Are we recording?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: We were briefed for a daylight on Bergen. The port.
CB: In Norway.
LBSG: Bergen in Norway yes. The port. And we had an escort of fighters but they had gone down, we were quite high on this occasion, we were, well we were always high, but, and they’d gone down to try and silence the ackack guns. There were an awful lot of them around the port and as they did so a m I think they were outside of a squadron of Focke Wulf 190s which was the latest or a mixture of that and the Messerschmitt but certainly there were a lot of fighters over the target and that was when Tony Iveson got shot up badly and he got a DFC for getting everything home. Although three of his crew baled out they weren’t, there was no communication, they thought, they’d been told to stand by and when they heard nothing else they thought that the thing had been shot up so badly so three of them baled out but you couldn’t blame them but two or three of them remained with Tony and they got the aircraft back. They used ropes to tie things up and it was an extraordinary feat and Tony Iveson put it down, I think it was certainly it was in the Shetlands or around there, one of the islands and he got an immediate DFC and certainly earned it. Certainly earned it. It’s a pity that his flight engineer who did so much towards helping Tony fly it because he couldn’t move the rudders by himself for example, he had to have an oppy sitting down there moving the rudders. The flight engineer. But anyhow there it was. I’m not criticising anybody I mean -
CB: No.
LBSG: It’s as they saw it. Not the crew. That’s how the command saw it.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: And all the rest of it. But that was a dicey trip, Bergen. We were lucky to get away. I think we had three shot down altogether.
CB: Did you?
LBSG: Two or three yeah. Yes. Of course our fighters, they must have been Mustangs because Spitfires could never have made it to Bergen in Norway. They must have been Mustangs. And they went away and shot, went down and shot away the ackack and lo and behold these fighters came and really tried to make mincemeat of us. They did. Well obviously they did. We were lucky.
CB: It didn’t sound a very good tactic did it? You should have, they should have left some fighters up top.
LBSG: Well yeah.
CB: Anyway -
LBSG: Yes. I mean we weren’t told, we weren’t told about the fighter -
CB: No.
LBSG: What the fighter tactics were.
CB: After Bergen where did you go?
LBSG: Oh all over the place. Went to [?]
CB: Is that a port?
LBSG: That was the Midget U-boat pens.
CB: Oh yes.
LBSG: They were a great menace. And we did the Bielefeld Viaduct.
CB: Oh yes.
VT: Oh right.
LBSG: And it was the Beilefeld, yes it was the Bielefeld.
CB: We talked about Tallboys but did you also do Grand Slam?
LBSG: Yes, I, yes.
CB: Because that was Bielefield wasn’t it?
LBSG: I did. I dropped a Grand Slam. I was on, I think the second or third on the squadron. Not many were dropped altogether. Only forty one were made and certainly not that amount were dropped I don’t think.
CB: No.
LBSG: But anyhow I dropped a Grand Slam on the Arnsberg Viaduct in March 1945. Now, it was important for the winning of the war that all lines of communication were severed so our targets were viaducts, railway bridges which they are, ordinary bridges, railway lines and so on because that stopped them bringing up troops.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And food and ammunition and all the rest of it. So lines of communication were certainly the target.
CB: So how did that do on that viaduct?
LBSG: Well yes. It -
CB: Brought it down.
LBSG: Yes it brought, but then look what they did with the dams. They had that up and working again in two or three weeks. They were masters at repairing things quickly.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And then we went back and bombed it again but nevertheless they -
CB: It was disruptive.
LBSG: They were a pretty tough adversary. They were. And -
CB: Sure.
LBSG: Able to, they weren’t, they were not stolid. They were versatile in their thinking. If they needed something then that would be done in the order it was needed.
CB: So just for the background of people listening to this -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: The Grand Slam is a twenty two thousand pound bomb.
LBSG: That’s right.
CB: What modification was there made to the aircraft and did the crew amount change when you did that?
LBSG: Yes. It did. Well it changed when we went to the Tirpitz. We only had five people I think. If you could pass me what I’ve written I could tell you.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: I know it but it would be much easier.
CB: Yeah. But just quickly on the, you had to take, did you lose -
LBSG: Be careful with that.
CB: The mid upper gunner when you were doing -
LBSG: No. No. I’ll have that back. Doing what?
CB: When you took a Grand Slam which member of the crew -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Did you not take?
LBSG: The Grand Slam. One, two, three. No, we took, we took the, we took the gunners. We didn’t take the wireless op.
CB: Right.
LBSG: For some reason. We took the gunners and we, yes because they’re necessary in daylight but we did anyhow but sometimes we took even fewer. On the Tirpitz we took [pause] sorry about this.
CB: It’s ok. We’re just looking in the -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Logbook.
LBSG: Yeah. The Tirpitz. It was a full crew. No. I’m talking nonsense sorry. On the Tirpitz. Where am I? [pause]. Nothing. The Tirpitz. One, two, three there were five crew and not seven.
CB: Right.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So you would have, we’re talking about Tallboys.
LBSG: Five not including me sorry.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: We left-
CB: So six. Yeah.
LBSG: We left behind the rear gunner. Yeah. Unless, we took one gunner. He may have filled the rear gunner’s position but I can tell you.
CB: Well the wireless operators were often -
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: The wireless operators were often -
LBSG: Oh we took him.
CB: Wireless and gunner weren’t they?
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Originally.
LBSG: We took the wireless op because he was, not that it helped much but he was getting winds which weren’t as good as we were getting. I relied, I had a wonderful navigator and I took his word on anything rather than having command winds sent to us by -
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: Some Mosquito somewhere.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: I was looking for something here. You asked me to check.
CB: Ok. We’re just going to -
LBSG: And I can’t remember it.
CB: Well, we’ll come back to that.
LBSG: Yeah.
VT: Is your logbook as alive today as it was when you wrote it?
LBSG: What?
VT: Your logbook.
LBSG: Yes.
VT: Is it as alive to you today?
LBSG: Yes as I wrote it and when we came back from a trip.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Yeah. It’s a bit fragile but you can have a look at it if you want to.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: The interesting thing I think about the later times is what sort of targets you were talking about and what was the, the Grand Slam was used for a particular reason for a particular target.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So what was that?
LBSG: Well I dropped mine on the viaduct.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And that was a particular target but I suppose one Grand Slam certainly did make a mess. There’s no doubt about the targets but I can’t tell you the thinking behind it I’m afraid. I was a squadron pilot.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I had no, I obeyed orders and took what I was told to take. Nobody discussed the theory of it with me or -
CB: Right. No. Quite.
LBSG: The tactics.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Or anything else.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: The squadron commander knew but I didn’t.
CB: But the Tallboy was a big bomb in itself of twelve thousand pounds.
LBSG: That was a twelve thousand pound bomb. Yes.
CB: And had huge penetration as well.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And so was and of course the twenty two thousand pound was a huge one. There were only, I think, forty one made and I believe I was certainly the third or fourth on the squadron to drop one.
CB: Right. Well they worked.
LBSG: We dropped them. Hmmn?
CB: Yeah. They worked.
LBSG: Yeah. But a massive thing. And we did have an undercarriage, different undercarriage. I think we had -
CB: To get a greater height.
LBSG: We had, I think it was a Lincoln. I just, that’s what I wanted this for. Have a look.
CB: You were –
LBSG: Oh the Grand Slam. Yes. Just a sec. Yes, if you, are you interested?
CB: Yes.
LBSG: Well for the Grand Slam the Lincoln undercarriage was fitted rather than our own. They’d allowed for the increased weight.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: The mid upper and front turret were removed.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: That’s the gunners or one gunner at least and the wireless operator’s equipment and the wireless operator himself so we had a pretty skeleton crew when we -
CB: Simply because the bomb was so heavy.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: They needed to save -
LBSG: Well -
CB: Weight.
LBSG: Yes. The other thing that came out was the armour plating -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And that -
CB: Behind you -
LBSG: And the pilot’s union didn’t like that because we had armour plating behind us. However, it was all taken out and the ammunition load was reduced so we couldn’t, yeah, there we are and it was all to save weight. The bomb doors were removed and they were replaced with fairings and a chain link strop with an electromechanical mechanism release was fitted to hold the Grand Slam in place.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And the electric, electromechanical release worked very well. You could hear it. I know it sounds strange but you actually heard it go, in the air, eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Right. So you are at eighteen thousand and you lose that, you drop it.
LBSG: Oh well –
CB: What happens to the aeroplane at that time?
LBSG: I’ll tell you what happened to the aeroplane. Although I was prepared for something the aeroplane just lifted up. That’s right. It lifted up.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Like a lift. And my flight engineer who was sitting next to me said he heard a loud bang but I didn’t hear that. I think I was occupied wondering what was going to happen to the aeroplane. There was no -
CB: When you -
LBSG: The great thing about the war was these days you’d be on a course for everything but they just did all these modifications and put all these things on and nobody said even about the take-off run because nobody knew so it was all down to us but then we were on 617 squadron and supposed, we were all there because we would be, we had to be able to cope with these things.
CB: So you were stationed where?
LBSG: At Woodhall Spa.
CB: And when you flew with the Grand Slam -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Did you use the standard runway?
LBSG: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So what was the difference in the run needed for Grand Slam compared with using a Tallboy?
LBSG: There wasn’t too much difference. It was a longer run, take off run and it was a bit slower on the climb and I think the flight engineer said he saw the wings bend a bit more than they usually do but I don’t know but it was certainly a longer take off run obviously and it was much slower on, well much, it was slower on the climb but once you got going it was, the Lancaster was an absolutely superb aircraft. You could do anything with it. Is this being recorded?
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So what other, so how many, how many raids are we, so operations so far?
LBSG: Oh well. Tirpitz was, I mentioned, I mentioned Bergen haven’t I? That was –
CB: Yes. Then the viaduct.
LBSG: And the viaduct. Yes and the synthetic oil plant I mentioned.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: But I ought to mention -
CB: Did you do -
LBSG: If I can find it in the right place where we were escorted by an ME262 fighter.
CB: Oh were you?
LBSG: Which really put a bit of a jerk into us as you can imagine. I’m just trying to -
CB: Was he being aggressive or just curious?
LBSG: Well I’ll tell you about it. I’ll just find out when it was.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And I will tell you. [pause] Oh dear. Sorry. Do you mind the pause?
CB: No. I’ll pause it.
[machine pause]
CB: So we’re talking about the 262.
LBSG: Yes. We were briefed for a daylight raid on the docks and installations at Hamburg. The port of Hamburg and we carried out the bombing run and, [pause] let me find the right one.
CB: This is on Hamburg.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Yes
LBSG: I’m looking for the one with the 262.
CB: Ah. Well we’ll just pause it again.
LBSG: Yeah.
[machine pause]
CB: Right we’re restarting now.
LBSG: Yes. I hope this is the one. On the 9th of April we were briefed for a daylight on the docks and installations at Hamburg and we did drop our Tallboy. There was a hang up and unfortunately it didn’t hit the target but went into the port area and I think probably some of the housing which we could do nothing about and on that occasion there were jet aircraft sent up to intercept us and we were fortunate we didn’t get intercepted. However, on the way back I was horrified when my, when my flight engineer who was always sitting next to me in the dickie seat nudged me in the ribs and went like this and I looked out and it all looked normal so I shrugged my shoulders and he nudged me harder and went like that to indicate look outside and I looked outside and I was absolutely horrified to see a Messerschmitt 262 in formation with us if you please. Which, to say the least, is a bit unusual. Now, he had cannon that could open fire three or four hundred yards before our tiny 303s even hit the synchronisation point and so we were, I mean we were helpless and he, he was there. He didn’t, there was no friendly wave and we stared at each other and my flight engineer looked at him as well and suddenly he disappeared as quickly as he’d come.
CB: So he was out of ammo.
LBSG: Well hang on.
CB: Ah.
LBSG: When we got back we mentioned it and Tony Langston who was a navigator in the aircraft behind us, he said, ‘Oh it was you was it?’ And I said, ‘Yeah. What do you mean?’ He said, ‘Well, we’d been attacked by the 262 and he opened fire on us and he got nowhere near us and he left us,’ and he said, ‘So it must have been you he formated on to have a look.’ Of course I was all ready to do the 5 group corkscrew and I don’t know what to get away from him but he just sat there and he wasn't, he couldn’t possibly fire at me while he was in good formation with me and it wasn’t much chance of a mid-upper shooting him down. I mean, I don’t think we had a mid-upper then. Just a sec, I think we only had the rear gunner. Can you -
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Wait?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Sorry.
[machine pause]
LBSG: We shoot at him.
CB: Right so -
LBSG: Sorry.
CB: Just repeat that. So you didn’t, on this particular time when the 262 came along beside you there was no mid upper turret operating.
LBSG: No. We had, there was no way we could shoot at him. We had one gunner and we’d have shot at ourselves I think if we’d tried. He probably could see that. Well he just sat there and then disappeared.
CB: How long was that for?
LBSG: To me it was about five hours but I think it was about thirty, about a minute, yes. Well I was just waiting for him to start an attack and I was getting all ready to do a 5 group corkscrew and all the other things but I don’t think we’d have stood much chance against him frankly. Anyhow, when we landed you were debriefed by the intelligence officer and I told him this and Tony Langston happened to hear me talking about it. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘He went to you did he?’ I said, ‘Well yes.’ Apparently, he’d attacked Tony Langston’s aircraft. I think it was flown by Flying Officer Joplin, Arthur Joplin and although he’d shot at them he didn’t shoot the aeroplane down which was extraordinary and I only, can only assume he must have been a very young -
VT: Rookie.
LBSG: New pilot who’d gone through a crash course towards the end of the war and really were just firing the guns and of course he didn’t do any damage.
VT: This was quite late on then was it?
LBSG: Yes. I’ve just given you the date.
VT: Yeah.
CB: 9th of April.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah. And well thank goodness he didn’t do it.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: I mean, he could have shot us both out of the sky without any trouble.
CB: Thirty millimetre cannon. Yeah.
VT: I suppose given the situation and what was the potential in the situation that you didn’t really have any thoughts about the 262 at that moment.
LBSG: Well -
VT: About its –
LBSG: What I was thinking of, ‘What shall I do?’ Because he was there and while he was on the starboard wing he couldn’t do any damage.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: But if he peeled off and we could see he was going to attack I would have to try and do a 5 group corkscrew -
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Which we were told to do. I don’t know what the success rate is.
CB: Ok. Just on that topic.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Could you just describe what was the 5 group corkscrew?
LBSG: Yes. Certainly.
CB: How it worked. So –
LBSG: Well -
CB: You instigate it.
LBSG: The 5 group corkscrew was -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: If you were attacked by an enemy aircraft you did something called a 5 group corkscrew. And that was from where you were you’d dive, rolling to the right and then after a few hundred feet you’d dive, continue to dive but roll to the left and then you would climb rolling to the right and you continue climbing and roll to the left. Now that’s a 5 group corkscrew and as you did, from the time you commenced the corkscrew you told the rear gunner what you were doing and you knew what deflection, this is theory, he knew what deflection he should be allowing for on his machine guns. So that was our defence and I don’t, I don’t know, fortunately I don’t know if it would ever work. Other people would have found out but they’d probably been shot down. You’ve got an agile twin jet fighter after you and you’ve got a big four engine.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Petrol, I mean fuel, you know.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: We weren’t jet we were the old fashioned engine.
CB: Piston. Yeah.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: Piston.
LBSG: Piston engine. Yeah. Wonderful aeroplane. Wonderful engines. I’ve no criticism there but they were a step, a hundred steps ahead of us with jet engines but we got away with it.
VT: What did you know at that time about the 262?
LBSG: Very little.
VT: Very little. Had you seen them before?
LBSG: Very little. Hmmn?
VT: Had you seen them before?
LBSG: Not in -
VT: No.
LBSG: Not in anger. No.
VT: No.
LBSG: We were attacked by jets over Hamburg and I suppose there must have been 262s amongst them but we were on the bombing run and you –
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: You just, you just had to stay on the bombing. There was no, excuse at all. You wouldn’t last five minutes on the squadron if you didn’t.
CB: We’ve covered a lot of stuff you’ve done.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: So when did you finish the tour?
LBSG: I can tell you that. Well I waited until the end of the war. I’d already finished the tour. Thirty operations.
CB: When did that happen?
LBSG: Well it was right at the end of the war I think and I opted to stay, to stay on the squadron. Hang on a second please.
[machine pause]
LBSG: I did my last operation on the 25th of April 1945 and that was against Berchtesgaden. The Eagle’s Nest.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And that was my, but by that time I’d done thirty trips. That was a tour of, tour of ops.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: But I was staying on. I didn’t want to leave the squadron.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I didn’t know the war was going to end.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: So I‘d opted to stay on the squadron.
CB: Oh right. Which would have been another thirty if the war had continued.
LBSG: Oh no I mean, the war had, the next month, in May the war stopped.
CB: No. No. If the war had continued you would have done -
LBSG: Well -
CB: Thirty. Would you? By signing on for that?
LBSG: Well yes. Yes but on 617 squadron you weren’t time expired after thirty ops.
CB: Ah.
LBSG: On main force you were automatically but you went on on thirty, squadron, to any number of ops. There was no limit on thirty. No limit to thirty. I mean -
CB: No.
VT: So you -
LBSG: On the squadron. We could go on as long as the CO would put up with us and -
VT: So you would have gone on for leave.
LBSG: I would –
VT: And then -
LBSG: Well no I would have gone on if the war hadn’t finished. I would have gone on.
VT: Yes. Yes. So you would have had leave after that thirty.
LBSG: No. I wouldn’t because it was 617. Normally -
VT: You would have just continued on ops.
LBSG: Yes.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Normally, on main force, after thirty ops you had, you were rested. You automatically, you were -
CB: Yes.
LBSG: Posted and you became an instructor on something or other.
CB: Right. Ok so how much longer did you continue with 617?
LBSG: Good question that. I will tell you. I should have said. May the 10th ’45.
CB: Right. Two days after the end of the war.
LBSG: Yeah because they posted and I went, well yes I went into what would have, was going to be Transport Command. It wasn’t then of course and I think with another chap we flew the first two sorties that Transport Command ever did I think. What was the beginning. Hang on a sec. I’ll -
CB: So you were posted somewhere quite different then?
LBSG: Oh yeah. Well I was posted to Leconfield.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And then, I mean, oh at Leconfield it was awfully, we had nothing to do at all and so I went to the, there was a Halifax squadron there and I went to the CO of the squadron and asked him if I could be checked out on a Halifax because we were doing nothing all day and my crew, well one or two of the members of the crew I had left came with me and he said yeah and he, you know checked me out on a Halifax and I said, ‘Can I go on flying?’ And he said, ‘Yeah, if you want to,’ and before I knew it I was flying bigwigs around Germany showing them all the -
CB: Cooks tours.
LBSG: Yeah the Cooks tour of Germany. And it suited me, I was doing some flying. So that’s how I came to fly Halifaxes. And of course I’d flown Stirlings at OT, heavy conversion bombing unit and then when the war ended, I’ll see here flew, yes I did a bit of Fairey flying. Where was this? Stirling. Here we are I think. Stirling flying. Yes. I was posted to, oh dear, another I was posted to, what was I doing?
CB: After Leconfield.
LBSG: Oh 31. 51 squadron I think. Yeah. 51 squadron.
CB: Oh right. At Skellingthorpe.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: They were at Waddington by then.
LBSG: I’m not sure. I don’t know if they were.
CB: They were Skelly oh.
LBSG: This is what I was talking about. September ‘45.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And August.
CB: Otherwise Skellingthorpe.
LBSG: August ’45.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And I did the, what did we do? We did some, yes another chap and myself, called Saunders I think, we were the first to, what was the beginning of Transport Command. We, we could fly Stirlings so we went, we did a sort of proving flight out to Castel Benito if I remember correctly. Yes. And then did some, I don’t know, must have taken freight or something I don’t know. Anyhow, we went, I did quite a bit of flying on the way out to [Shima?] Maripur in Stirlings.
CB: So 51 squadron was on Stirlings was it?
LBSG: Well it must have been.
CB: Was this 51?
LBSG: Yeah. 51, it must have been. Yeah. And we did all sorts of things on Stirlings. Yes, we, I did quite a few hours afterwards on Stirlings. I’ve just realised that and we carried, believe it or not, twenty four passengers. That was all in the Stirling. Of course there was nowhere to put them except in the middle we were all, have you seen the inside of a Stirling? It’s like a submarine. You’ve got these big wheels. If the engineer wanted to change the fuel tanks he had to go halfway down the fuselage with these massive wheels and well it was just like a submarine really. They built them as submarines. And when you, when you took off, as part of the engineer’s duty as soon as you retracted the undercarriage which was like a bailey bridge, they were really, he had to go and check, there was a meter which showed you the amount of revs and each undercarriage and the twin tail wheel, twin tail wheel they had to be within five revolutions of the set figure given when they were retracted [coughs], excuse me, and if they weren’t then you were supposed to go back and land. What you did was you put it down and brought it up again in the hope, because the last thing you wanted to do you’d gone through all the trouble of getting airborne in a Stirling and then to find the undercarriage rev counter had stopped working so we never never had a boomerang for that. Never. But the tail wheel also had a, but it was extraordinary you had to go and check the rev counters to make sure. It was like a bailey bridge going up and down really. Extraordinary. The Stirling was a nice aeroplane to fly.
CB: Was it?
LBSG: It was and I did quite a bit of flying on it out to India and back with passengers. Shaibah. Lida. Cairo.
CB: This was –
LBSG: Went to Cairo.
VT: when you mention the Cooks tour. I’m just thinking for the tape should you not explain something about that? And also -
CB: Ok so -
VT: Who were the bigwigs.
CB: So what people were these bigwigs that you took on the Cooks tours?
LBSG: Well I think they were generals and admirals and air marshals and other probably highly placed civil servants and of course to see anything they had to stand behind you or look out of what windows there were. After all it was a Halifax. It was a bomber not a sightseeing aeroplane [laughs].
CB: No.
LBSG: But they didn’t mind. They stood there and of course there were all these devastated cities.
CB: So what height were you?
LBSG: It was a horror to see.
CB: Yes. What height were you flying?
LBSG: Oh pretty low for them to see. Well high enough for them to have an overall view but not up, not very high.
CB: No. What sort of height are we talking about?
LBSG: Oh a few thousand feet I think.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Yeah. We might come down lower to show them a specific thing but it was really, when I think about it horrifying. These huge cities. But it was great going to Cologne because everything was ruined except the cathedral and that was, and I am sure that was by sheer luck. I am sure. Because we were never briefed don’t hit the cathedral and at night I mean [ ?] I think it was sheer luck but anyhow it reflected greatly on the RAFs reputation and we’ve kept it that way. I’m sure you can’t blame, oh.
CB: Yes. That’s right.
LBSG: Oh no. Please.
CB: That’s fine.
LBSG: Oh no.
CB: We can wipe it.
LBSG: Oh yeah that little bit please.
CB: Right, so -
LBSG: Just -
CB: So -
LBSG: Just -
CB: So we were talking about Cooks tours.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: It’s about people who were -
LBSG: Bigwigs.
CB: Being shown -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: The effect of -
LBSG: Yes. Of the bombing.
CB: Of the bombing.
LBSG: On Germany.
CB: Strategy yeah. So what do you want me to say then?
LBSG: Yeah that’s just to explain. You’ve just said it yeah.
CB: The Cooks tour in the Halifax was for bigwigs and top ranking officers to show them how accurate the bombing had been and how right the RAF strategy was.
CB: Ok. That’s fine. Good.
VT: Wonderful.
CB: So just tell us about the crew then. So you had the same crew all the time did you?
LBSG: Yes. I had the same crew throughout -
CB: On the 617.
LBSG: My operational flying. I think I explained that we picked each other at random but it always seemed to work out. Very rarely did it, did it not work out and I had a splendid crew and they supported me all the way through.
CB: What mixture of nationalities were they?
LBSG: Well at that time they were all British but one was a Welshman. I suppose he didn’t, wouldn’t like me to call him, he’d like me to call him Welsh now but he was he was a rear gunner. The rest, yes, were all British. Were all English. But in those days they were all British.
CB: And the crew themselves at work, rest and play was it?
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So you did everything together.
LBSG: Not everything but we were pretty well bonded together.
CB: So what was the rank range? So you were by then -
LBSG: Flight lieutenant.
CB: What rank? Right.
LBSG: And -
CB: Any other officers -
LBSG: I had -
CB: In the crew?
LBSG: I think I had a flight, I think Tony Hayward, the bomb aimer, I’m not sure if he’d been promoted to flight lieutenant by then. The navigator was a flying officer. Tony Hayward was either a flying officer or flight lieutenant and the rest of the crew were sergeants or flight sergeants and became warrant officers as well.
CB: Yeah. Ok. Thank you. We’re going to stop there and -
LBSG: I’m glad to hear that.
CB: Pick up things later. Isn’t that amazing?
VT: Oh yeah. Terrific. Terrific.
LBSG: What?
CB: So that was really good Benny.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: That’s really good.
LBSG: You’re being nice to me there.
VT: No. No. No. No. No.
CB: I’m trying to be because I want to be able to come back. [laughs]
LBSG: Yeah. Certainly. Well I mean -
CB: Oh no. This is really good. I’m serious. Now the point here really is that we are going to read that. We’re rushing off because we’ve laboured you a lot but also -
LBSG: Oh that’s alright.
CB: We need to get back.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: And I’m coming down here again shortly ‘cause I want to go to Crowthorne and a ninety six year old lady whose husband is suffering from dementia -
LBSG: Oh dear.
CB: The last eight years and is now in a home but she was on intelligence at -
LBSG: Was she at -
CB: At Driffield.
LBSG: Oh Driffield, not on, was it -
CB: And, and later, later at Linton on Ouse.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: And she spent three and a half years at Linton on Ouse.
LBSG: But she wasn’t at the, where am I?
VT: Bletchley?
LBSG: Hmmn?
VT: Bletchley.
LBSG: Bletchley Park.
CB: No. No. No. No. She was a WAAF in the -
LBSG: Well there were lots of WAAFs there.
CB: Administration and cook.
LBSG: Yeah. She was a WAAF intelligence officer.
CB: Yeah. Not officer. Just -
LBSG: No WAAF on, yeah.
CB: She was asked -
LBSG: Well she’d have something to say. Things to tell you.
CB: They wanted to commission her twice but she refused because she wanted to be where the -
LBSG: Her mates.
CB: Where the action was. Yes. So thank you very much indeed.
LBSG: Well I’ll probably be -
CB: And –
LBSG: Talking, bored you to death.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Benny Goodman. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-04-07
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoodmanLS160407
PGoodmanLS1501
Conforms To
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
Germany
Description
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Benny Goodman grew up in London and hoped to become a pilot. He volunteered for the Air Force and was originally posted to RAF Abingdon as a ground gunner before beginning his flying training. After qualifying as a pilot in Canada, he became an instructor to Navy pilots. He survived his ship being torpedoed before he finally joined the Queen Mary in New York and returned to England. He flew operations with 617 Squadron and discusses a fire in the cockpit of his Lancaster, narrowly missing and mid-air collision and flying alongside a Me 262.
Format
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01:31:12 audio recording
51 Squadron
617 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Cook’s tour
Grand Slam
Halifax
Harvard
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Magister
Me 262
military discipline
military living conditions
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
perimeter track
pilot
RAF Abingdon
RAF Leconfield
RAF Silverstone
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
sanitation
Stirling
submarine
Tallboy
Tiger Moth
Tirpitz
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/540/8780/AGilbertAC161013.2.mp3
d34798a44bdedb497b506541d0fc1232
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gilbert, Alexander Charles
A C Gilbert
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Gilbert, AC
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Alexander Charles Gilbert DFC (b. 1921, 1336682, 186764 Royal Air Force) his log book, documents and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 9, 514 and 159 Squadrons. He was Awarded the Chevalier of the Légion d'honneur in 2020.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Alexander Gilbert and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2016-01-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 13th of October 2016 and we’re with Squadron Leader Alexander Gilbert DFC at Cheddington near Leighton Buzzard in Bedfordshire, and we’re going to talk about his career in the RAF, which was a long one. What do you remember in the earliest recollections then Alex?
AG: What do you mean? Going way, right back?
CB: Right from when you were really young.
AG: Ah, well, my father was a Hansom cab driver in London.
CB: Oh right.
AG: He joined the Army at the outbreak of World War One and served right through. And because he’d been a Hansom cab driver and knew all about horses they, he was assigned to what they called the Rough Riders, looking after horses, taking them across the Channel to France, and training horses and occasionally going down to Spain to purchase more horses and mules that were brought back for service in France. And at the end of the war, he was at this, this re-mount depot as it was called, at Swaythling in Southampton and he stayed there, and of course, he was married at the time. And from there, what could we say? I started school aged five, and I went to an elementary school and I left at fourteen, and then I was training or trying to become something in the art world, and I attended art school in Southampton. And then in November 1940, I volunteered to join the RAF and was called forward for service on the 7th of April 1941 and despatched to Uxbridge, where I spent three or four days being interviewed and processed, sworn in, all that sort of thing, and then assigned to a trade, and I was told I was to be trained as a Flight Mechanic Air Frames. From there, along with others, I proceeded to Blackpool where I carried out my recruit training on Blackpool sands, accommodated in one of the well-known Blackpool boarding houses. The training, as I remember it, lasted about four, four or five weeks. Recruit training and then we were moved to nearby Kirkham to, to carry out the trade training. The flight mechanics course lasted, as I remember, about eight, eight to ten weeks. At the end of the course, we had a final examination and the top third who passed out were retained to carry on to do a fitter’s course. I was in the top third so I stayed behind and completed the two courses, and at the end of it, I was a Group One Tradesman, Fitter 2A as they called them. I then had my, my first posting which was to what had been Exeter Airport, which was now a station that was occupied by a Spitfire squadron. I was only there about four weeks when the squadron was moved to an airfield near London. The air, the air, the ground crew were not required because the airfield that they’d gone to, already had ground crew, so we were dispersed and posted to various stations and I was posted to Calshot. Calshot was a very dreary place, it hadn’t changed, I don’t think, since World War One. The accommodation was pretty grim, I always remember the beds we had were iron plated, sort of, you know bedsteads. Very, very uncomfortable. The working hours, we worked, weekdays, every day, eight hours a day. We also worked weekends, Saturday mornings and Sunday mornings. We had the afternoons off at weekends, but because Calshot was rather isolated, there wasn’t anywhere to go anyway. So altogether it was a place that I, I really did not like at all. Anyway, apart from the work that we had to do, we also did guard duty at night along the Calshot foreshore, because there was the talk at the time about invasion and all this business, so we, we did these guard duties as well as our normal work. A very cold and uncomfortable place in winter time I can assure you, on the Calshot foreshore, very uncomfortable indeed. In early 1942, it was about March I suppose, a letter was pinned on the notice board. It said that the aircraft industry was expanding and there was a shortage of skilled tradesmen. RAF fitters were invited to volunteer for a short secondment to the aircraft industry. I thought to myself this is a way of getting away from Calshot so I volunteered. I didn’t really know what I was getting into actually. They told me I, yeah, I was to report to an office in Oxford, which I did. When I arrived there they said you will be working at the Cowley Motor Works. It was no longer a motor works of course, they were turning out parts for Lancaster aircraft, and they said, ‘You will work on permanent nightshift’. You start at 8 o’clock in the evening and you worked until 6 o’clock the next morning, with an hour’s break at night, and that was the routine. They gave me an address to go to where I would be accommodated. It was a house in the backstreets of Oxford that was owned by a young couple in their early thirties I suppose, and it was obvious from the start that they resented having a lodger, so there was no welcome at all. The woman took me up to what was to be my room, which had a bed, a table and a chair and that was it. It was a very depressing place altogether. I spent the night there, and the next morning, I had the same reception from this couple, not a friendly attitude at all, so I waited till they’d gone to work, packed my small bag and went back to the office I’d first reported to. The woman I saw, I explained to her about this place and I said, ‘I’m not going to stay there’, I said, ‘I am not going to stay in that place. Can you give me a new address? Another address to go to?’ So she said, ‘Yes, I’ll do that’. She said, ‘Here’s an address in Cowley’. I went there, a very nice street, the house very nice. Nice, nice couple, middle aged couple. The husband worked as a chef at the Randolph Hotel in Oxford. She showed me to my room, very pleasant and comfortable, so that’s where I was whilst I worked at Cowley. The next day I reported to the Cowley Works to start work. The chap I saw said, ‘You will be working with a team of four’, there was already four there, ‘You’ll be, you’ll be number five, working with this team producing spars for the fuselage of Lancaster aircraft’. The four chaps turned out all to be Welshmen, they all came from the same place. They all knew one another well and I was taken into the team and we all got on quite well. That was it for the next five months or so. Then in early September, I received a letter to say that I was to be recalled and to report to Scampton, RAF Scampton, which I duly did, and on arrival at Scampton, I was told I was posted to 49 Bomber Squadron to work on Lancaster aircraft. I worked, I was on, on 49 Squadron through the winter of ’42/43, then in early ’43, I suppose it was about March time, a further letter appeared on a noticeboard to say that more and more four engine bomber squadrons were being formed, and there was a requirement for flight engineers, so I volunteered. At the time, there was no flight engineer training course and they said you would receive your training at the Rolls Royce works at Derby, and you would do a two week course on the Merlin engine and that would be it, which I did. After that, I was promoted to the rank of sergeant, given my flight engineer brevet, and then moved to Morton Hall where I would be crewed up. I got to Morton Hall and found that there were crews already there. There was the pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator and the two air gunners and now they wanted a flight engineer. The way we were crewed up was the other engineers and myself were put in to a hut and told to line up along one wall. The pilots then came in and lined themselves up on the opposite wall, and the procedure was that the pilot would look across at the engineers, look at one that he thought would, would be ok and ask him, and I was approached by a chap called Colin Payne who said to me, ‘How would you like to join my crew?’ And I said, ‘Yes please. I would’, because I liked the look of him, and then he took me outside to introduce me to the other crew members and that was it. We were then moved to Winthorpe to do our conversion course on the Lancaster, which we did, and from there, we had our first operational posting and we were posted to 9 Squadron at Bardney. While we were there, we did ten operations, including the three to Hamburg [pause]. At the time the squadrons, the Stirling squadrons in 3 Group were being converted to Lancasters, and new squadrons were starting to be formed. We were told that a new squadron was being formed at Foulsham, and was to be called 514 Squadron. It appears that they wanted two or three experienced crews to start the squadron off and then new crews would be added. So we duly reported to Foulsham where we did four operations with the newly formed 514 Squadron. The last of the four operations was to Berlin and when we were briefed, we were told that when we completed the operation, ‘You will not be returning to Foulsham. You will fly straight to Waterbeach’, which was to be the home of 514 Squadron, which was a rather odd thing to do because we had our belongings and all that sort of thing, and in, somebody wrote up afterwards what this was all about and there’s the letter there. Is that the one? The top one. “Get on your bike” or something, it says.
CB: “Posted via Berlin. Take [take] your bike”.
AG: That’s it. “Take your bike”, yeah. Yeah. I mean, this was the thing which you normally, they would never allow you to take anything.
CB: No.
AG: But we took all our stuff with us to Berlin and then to Waterbeach.
CB: Because you were moving airfield.
AG: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that was that. So we arrived at Waterbeach, whilst we were at Waterbeach, we did another ten operations. So, so far we’d done ten at Bardney, ten at Waterbeach and I had done, and the four at Foulsham, a total of twenty four. The crew actually had done twenty five, there was one operation that I couldn’t go on because I had developed a nasty quinsy in my throat, and I couldn’t fly for three or four days, so I did one less operation than the rest of the crew. However, when they’d done twenty five and I’d done twenty four, we were then told that you had completed your first tour. Now this was five short of the normal thirty operations. The reason for this, I don’t know, whether it was because of the fourteen operations we’d done with 514 Squadron, ten of them had been to Berlin. Ten. Whether it was because of that, I don’t know but they said, ‘You have completed your first tour’ [pause]. The crew were then dispersed, of course, and posted to various training units. I stayed with Colin and we were posted as instructors to Number 3 LFS at Feltwell [pause], where we were until the, towards the end of the year. Well, we were, this was 1944, Colin said to me, ‘How would you like to go back on operations?’ I said, ‘Well I don’t mind’, so he said, ‘We will be posted to 149 Squadron at Methwold’, he said, ‘And I’ll try and contact some of the old crew members and ask them to join us’. He managed to contact the wireless operator and the rear gunner, and they duly arrived to join us at Methwold. We then picked up a new navigator, a new bomb aimer and a new gunner to replace the Australian. The Australian, by the way, was given a choice, having completed a tour of operations, either to stay in England or to go home to Australia, and he elected to go home. Now, among the operations we did with 149, we did the Dresden operation. We went to Dresden and we also did two Manna operations, dropping food. In our case, we dropped food to people in Rotterdam and The Hague [pause], and that was shortly before the war ended. At the end of the war, we started to get demobbed. I had been offered a four year extension, I didn’t know what I was going to do, by the way. I was married by that time, and my wife Dorothy had been a WAAF MT driver at Waterbeach. I wasn’t sure what I was going to do, and as I was offered this four year extension of service, I thought, I’ll take it and then make up my mind later about my future career or whatever. Anyway, I took the four year extension of service, stayed with the squadron until it was disbanded in January 1948, but during that time we did various exercises. We had a three, three, three or four day detachment to Trondheim in Norway, we did a trip to Juvincourt to bring back these chaps who’d been in the Army and been prisoners of war. We had an attachment to Gatow in Berlin, we did a tour of Germany by air, looking at some of the stations that we had bombed, some of the towns that we had bombed to see what it all looked like, and we had this trip to Pomigliano in Italy, and we had this two week detachment in the Canal Zone [pause]. And then, when the squadron was finally disbanded, there was no requirement, of course, for flight engineers, bomb aimers, air gunners or anything like that. The only aircrew they wanted to retain, were pilots and navigators, so I was transferred from the GD branch to the secretarial branch [pause]. I had two short, short postings, one to Watton and one to Bletchley Park which, at that time was the headquarters of Central Signals Area. You weren’t allowed in the house at that time, everything was all locked up and no one ever spoke about what, what was done at Bletchley during the war. No one ever said a word about it. One of the jobs I had to do whilst I was at Bletchley was opening the mail that came in, and one morning I opened the mail, opened this post gram, and found that I was posted to Hong Kong and I was posted to 367 Signals Unit, which was a Y station on Hong Kong Island. I travelled to Hong Kong by way of Singapore, on the troop ship Orbita, which took some five weeks to get to Singapore. I spent three of four days in Singapore and then boarded a Dakota aircraft to get to Hong Kong. We stopped on the way at Saigon to refuel and have something to eat, and the whole trip took eight and a half hours in this Dakota, and then arrived in Hong Kong. At the time, it was at the time that Chairman Mao was winning the war in China and people were flooding in to Hong Kong. Rich Chinese people who could afford anything, and any spare accommodation in Hong Kong was taken up by these people. So in our case, we were, I was occupied in the mess at Kai Tak, and it was a question of applying to get my wife to come and join me, which would take some time, and you just went on the married quarters waiting list, and again there were very few married quarters in Hong Kong, so you just had to wait a long time to get one. Anyway, my wife arrived in September with our newly born young girl, Janet, my daughter, and we were accommodated, like a lot of others, in one room in a hotel. Not, again, not very comfortable, waiting to be allocated a married quarter, but anyway, things in this hotel, it was hot, humid, again terribly uncomfortable, and every day I used to buy the China News, news, newspaper and see if there was any sort of accommodation being advertised. One day I bought the paper, and there was an advert in there which said there was an English family who worked in Hong Kong going home on leave, and their flat would be available. Offers were asked for, so I wrote, I sat down and wrote a letter which brought tears to the eyes of anyone who read it, and posted it off to this man called Alex MacLeod, who owned this flat. A couple of days later, he rang me up at the hotel and he said could I come over and have a chat with him and his wife, so Dorothy and I went across to the island, because our hotel was located in Kowloon on the mainland, and he took me up to the flat, introduced me to Joan, his wife, and after a short conversation they said, ‘We’re going to offer you the flat’. So we moved out of the hotel and into this flat, which we occupied for about two months whilst they were away in England. When they were due back, strangely enough, I rose to the top of the married quarters list and was offered a married quarter, so we moved in to the quarter and there we stayed until I completed my tour in Hong Kong in September 1953 [pause].
CB: We’ll just pause there for a mo.
AG: Do you want to go on there because we were now –?
CB: Yeah. Give you a –
[Recording paused]
CB: Ok.
AG: Right.
CB: So you’re in Hong Kong.
AG: In Hong Kong, completed nearly three years in Hong Kong, and when I came home, I was posted to 3513 FCU, Fighter Control Unit in Devonport as adjutant of the unit. We had an operational outstation at Hope Cove with a small staff at Hope Cove and [pause], I’m trying to get my thoughts right here. I completed a tour at 3513 and was then posted to 24 Group on the P staff. This was in Lincolnshire and –
CB: So what was P staff?
AG: P staff. P2 was Postings –
CB: Right.
AG: Postings of officers [pause]. I’d been there a short time and it was decided that the P staffs at Groups headquarters would be, would be closed down and they were no longer required, and so I was then posted to our headquarters, Technical Training Command at Brampton, again on the P staff [pause]. And whilst I was there my, I was then granted a permanent commission on the general list [pause]. From then I had various postings, I had two and a half years at SHAEF headquarters in Fontainebleau in France.
CB: What did you do there?
AG: I was the adjutant of the RAF support unit. Each of the nationalities at Fontainebleau, there were the British, the Americans, Canadians, French of course, they each had their own support staff and I was the adjutant of the RAF support staff [pause]. After that, my next posting was as recruiting officer at Brighton [pause], from there, I was posted to Headquarters Transport Command at Upavon, where I was the P1 staff officer responsible for courts martial boards of enquiry and all that sort of thing. I was there for only a few months when I was promoted to Squadron Leader and posted to the record office at Barnwood in Gloucester, where I was on the staff of the air commodore, the AOC [pause]. I did just over two years there and then I was posted to Aden on a twelve month unaccompanied tour of Aden. Whilst I was in Aden, they had a peculiar arrangement in Aden at the time. It was nearing the time when we were planning to get out of Aden anyway, to leave it and they had what they called continuity posts, which was a posting of two and a half years where you could be accompanied by your wife and family. A non-continuity post was a twelve month unaccompanied tour post which I, which I was in. Again, Aden, a dreadful place, we should have got out of Aden years ago but it wasn’t until 1967 that we finally left. I completed the twelve month unaccompanied tour, and on arrival back at the UK, was posted to Headquarters Strike Command at High Wycombe where I was on the aug staff [pause]. From there, I was posted to the Air Ministry on the staff of the director of manning. I did three and a half years at Adastral House in Holborn, which was part of the Air Ministry at the time. Nearing the end of my service, I had a final posting to Stanmore Park, where I was the deputy CO of Stanmore Park and that was my final posting, having then completed thirty five years in the service [pause]. Knowing that I was to be, leave the service in the October 1976, I had already started to formulate what I was going to do when I left the service, and I had applied for a job with the University of Buckingham, which I got. They had an offshoot of the University at Chalfont St Giles. By this time, of course, we’d bought this house in Cheddington, and the journey between here and Chalfont St Giles was twenty two miles. Anyway, which I had to do every day but I thought, well I’d got the job, and it seemed quite a good job looking after the admin side of the University of Buckingham at Chalfont. I had been interviewed for the job along with three others. They’d had a large number of applications to get this job, but anyway, there was three others and myself who were interviewed for this job. We spent a day at Chalfont, the morning we spent touring the place, and in the afternoon, the interviews were carried out, and the interview for each one of us lasted about three quarters of an hour or so, and we sat there then waiting to see who’d got the job, and at the end of the afternoon, the Vice Chancellor came in and said, ‘We’ve decided to give the job to Squadron Leader Gilbert’. So I thought, right. That was it. Now, this was before I had left the service. He said, ‘We will keep the job open for you until you leave the service in October’ [pause]. Shortly before I retired, I was in my office at, at Stanmore Park and I had a phone call from the Air Ministry, and they said, ‘We notice that you live near Halton’, they said, ‘Would you be interested in a retired officer job at Halton? The job would be for ten years after you leave the service and’, they said, ‘You’ll have to be interviewed of course, at Headquarters Air Cadets’. And I said, ‘Well, I’ll go there. I’m quite interested to find out what it’s all about’. So I, I went to Headquarters Air Cadets for this interview along, along with a number of others, and again at the end of the afternoon, the group captain, who was in charge of the interview board, came and said, ‘We’ve decided to offer the job to Squadron Leader Gilbert’. So I thought, right, I’ve got two jobs now. I’ve got the offer of a job at Halton and the job at Chalfont St Giles, and I thought, well to be very honest, Halton is quite close here, I would know all the routine of the service. I would still be in uniform as a squadron leader at Halton for ten years secure, secure employment, so I thought, well I will have to try, try and take this job. So I rang the Vice Chancellor at Chalfont and said, ‘Could I come down and see you?’ Which I did. I went down to him and explained what it was all about and I said, ‘To be quite honest, this job at Halton, I really know all about it. I know the routine of the service, it’s quite near my home and I feel that really, I ought to take this job’. He said, ‘I quite understand’, he said, ‘We will find somebody else’, and he said, ‘I wish you the best of luck’. So I started at Halton. I was the wing admin officer of Herts and Bucks Wing, Air Training Corps, and my job was taking care of all the ATC squadrons in Hertfordshire and in Bucks, and I completed that job for ten years. And that, I think, is the end of it.
CB: You decided to retire completely at age sixty five.
AG: At sixty five, I thought I have done enough. I have never been unemployed and I thought I’d, I’d done quite enough and that’s it.
CB: Very good. Let’s have a break.
[Recording paused]
CB: Geoff, thanks, sorry Alex. Thanks very much for all that stuff. What I want to do is run through some individual items. One of the things we touched on was Manna.
AG: Yeah.
CB: Now, this is quite important in a lot of ways, so could you just tell us how did you get involved in that and what, what happened and how did you feel?
AG: Well on the, towards the end of the war, we were told that the people in Holland were starving and a lot were dying. In fact, I was told eventually that twenty thousand Dutch people died of starvation, so we were told that we were to take part in what we was called Operation Manna. The word comes, you probably know –
CB: From heaven.
AG: The word comes from the bible, and when the Israelites and Moses were driven out of Egypt, they were starving and Moses prayed for them to get food, and it appears that a heavy dew descended on the land. This dew was sweet tasting and the Israelites were able to eat this stuff and so survive. And that is where, and Moses said, ‘This is Manna from heaven’, and that’s the way it came about. We did two food drops, one to Rotterdam, one to the Hague, flew to Holland with bomb bay laden with food and as we came in, in to the park at low level and dropped the food the people who’d gathered there all started shouting and cheering and all the rest of it. It was a sight that I will always remember, and it made us feel that we’d done something that was really worthwhile and that is the Manna story as far as I’m concerned.
CB: Then when you got back? So, you then got back and then what?
AG: Well got back and as I say, we did the two, two trips and then we just carried on with normal squadron duties.
CB: Right.
AG: But this happened, people don’t seem to realise that these drops took place while the war was still on. The Germans had agreed that they would not interfere with the Operation Manna.
CB: And what height and speed did you do this?
AG: We came in about five hundred feet, and the food was all in sacks on a wooden sort of arrangement. A pallet as they called it, a wooden pallet, and the food was all in sacks and the pallet was just dropped on to the park.
CB: A moving experience.
AG: Yeah. Very much so. Very much so. Never forget these people.
CB: No.
AG: Who were all so pleased to see us.
CB: And after the war did you ever go to Holland?
AG: No. No. No. Oh I went, when I was at Fontainebleau.
CB: Oh you did?
AG: I used to go, go up there occasionally. Oh yes. Yeah.
CB: Right.
AG: Yeah.
CB: Thank you.
[Recording paused]
CB: Now we’re just going on to your role as a flight engineer, because the flight engineer’s activities were actually quite busy. If we start with take-off, could you describe the take-off process and how the flight engineer gets involved in that, and what he does?
AG: Well at take-off, we go down the runway, the pilot takes the aircraft in to the air, and as he does so, the flight engineer gets the undercarriage up and adjusts the flaps, and that’s, that’s about it until you’re up. And er –
CB: But in fact, you take over the throttles at an early stage, so can you just describe that?
AG: And, and, yes, once you’re airborne at flying height, then you adjust the throttles to whatever speed, you know, the pilot wants, and the bombing height of course was between eighteen and twenty thousand feet each time. And that was it. Most of the trips took about four and a half to five hours, but of course, a trip like Dresden, we were airborne for eight and a half hours, and we went in across Germany but when we came out, we went north and flew over Denmark and came home, home that way.
CB: Right. So when you’re flying as an engineer, what do you do?
AG: Well, you’re doing really the log more than anything and anything else the pilots wants you to do, but normally, I mean, the whole crew would settle down really, and you were just airborne hoping you wouldn’t be attacked by a night fighter.
CB: Yeah. So when you fill in the log, what are you filling in and with what frequency?
AG: The frequency was about every half hour or so and you would put in what you thought was the fuel consumption at the time.
CB: So how –
AG: That sort of thing. Yes.
CB: How do you work out the transfer of fuel and what do you do?
AG: Yes. Well, you know that you’re on, say, a particular tank for a certain time and that it was time to transfer or refill that tank or whatever and you would do. It didn’t happen all that often of course, I forget now how many, how many petrol tanks there were on the Lancaster, I think it was two to three at each wing, something like that. I forget those details now, it’s too long ago and regrettably, all the booklets I had on the Lancaster I kept for many years, but with all my travels, eventually they were all discarded.
CB: I’ve got a pilot –
AG: Regrettably.
CB: I’ve got a –
AG: My daughter always swears at me, she says, ‘you should have kept all that stuff, Dad’.
CB: Yeah.
AG: You should have kept it all. Well I know that is true now but hindsight is all very well, isn’t it?
CB: Well perhaps it wasn’t so important then. I’ve got a –
AG: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: I’ve got a pilot’s notes, I’ll lend it to you.
AG: That’s right. Yeah. Well I had all the notes on the Lancaster, I could tell you all about it.
CB: Yeah.
AG: Yes. Yeah.
CB: Now, why are you moving fuel?
AG: Because of weight, weight really, to get an evenly balanced aircraft.
CB: So you –
AG: That’s the only, only reason I can recall.
CB: So you’re moving it from the outer tanks to the inner ones, are you?
AG: That’s right, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So we finish the sortie and you’re coming in to land. What does the, what’s the tasks, the role of the flight engineer?
AG: Well once we’re on the circuit and we were called in, then it was undercarriage down and just standing by the pilot, and that was it really, making any engine adjustment as we came in. That was all. Yeah.
CB: So back on the stage of taking off, at what point and how do you balance the engines? Synchronise the engines.
AG: Once you’d got to a certain height.
CB: Right.
AG: Once you’d got to a certain height, yeah. Yeah.
CB: And the purpose of that is?
AG: Well you stayed on that, on that engine arrangement whilst, you know, whilst you were in flight. You could have been on that for some time.
CB: But –
AG: Some time without any change. You weren’t constantly changing. I mean, let’s be honest about it, with these operations, a lot of the time, a lot of the crew were doing nothing. Nothing. I mean the bomb aimer, he was doing nothing down in the front. The ones who were working the hardest were the pilot and the navigator. The wireless operator wasn’t allowed to transmit whilst you were over Germany, and the two gunners were just sat there, hoping that the aircraft wouldn’t be attacked. So there were long periods of inactivity let’s say, on the part of a lot of the crew.
CB: So you did a complete tour and other sorties as well.
AG: Yeah.
CB: How reliable was the aircraft and what sort of snags did you come up against?
AG: The aircraft was very reliable because your ground crew were the same people. You had the same engine fitter, the same air frame chap and the same armourer who looked after your aircraft. So after an operation, normally, you would go down to the flight lines, and they would say, ‘We’ve checked everything over. Will you give it an air test?’ So just Colin and I would clamber aboard the aircraft, go up for about twenty minutes, make sure that everything was working all right and land, and that was the air test after they’d serviced the aircraft, and that used to happen practically every time. Yeah.
CB: Now going back to the beginning of your career, in volunteering to join the forces, there was basically an option between the Army, the Navy and the Air Force. What prompted you to make the decision you did?
AG: I just didn’t want to join the Army or the Navy, and I thought I want to join, join the Air Force and that was it.
CB: To what extent did the Air Forces activities in the early part of the war, inspire people of your age? So, Battle of Britain, that sort of thing?
AG: Oh well, yes. You see our home was in Southampton, and out of interest, while I was training on that flight mechanics course at Kirkham, I had a phone call from my sister who said, ‘Last night, our house was destroyed’. It was bombed. She said, ‘We’re all alright, Dad and Mum because we were in an air raid shelter nearby, a service shelter and so we’re all alright’. And when I was in, told my flight commander, he said, ‘So you’re family are ok, are they? Nobody’s injured. No?’ I said, ‘No’. He said, ‘Then we can’t spare you any time off to go home’, so that was that. But in Southampton, before I joined the Air Force of course, the Battle of Britain was going on. The first RAF fighter pilot to get the VC got it over Southampton.
CB: Nicholson.
AG: Nicholson. And he was the first one and I saw him come down.
CB: Did you really?
AG: And he landed near where I lived, yeah, and it was all that sort of thing that inspired one. Oh yes, you know, join the RAF. That’s, that’s, that’s the place to join.
CB: Exciting.
AG: Exciting. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, just across the water, the Itchen, was the Supermarine Works.
CB: In the Isle of Wight.
AG: Was the first place to build the Spitfire aircraft, because the Spitfire, when the trials took place before the war, took place at Eastleigh Airport near Southampton.
CB: Yeah.
AG: Yeah. So, and of course, the man who invented the Spitfire, RJ Mitchell, lived in Southampton at the time. In fact, there’s the plaque on the house now where he lived.
CB: What was the reaction of your parents to the destruction of their home?
AG: Ahh well, they, it was just one of the, I mean, this was happening all the time during the war and they rapidly found a place nearby. A house that they rented for the rest of the war.
CB: But they’d owned their own home before.
AG: No, it was a council house.
CB: Oh, was it? Right.
AG: It was a council, yes, it was a council house, and so that was that. So they rented this place whilst the war was on, and after the war, they rebuilt the council house where they’d lived and they went back to the same spot in a new house.
CB: Did they really?
AG: Yeah.
CB: And what about your sister’s reaction?
AG: [laughs] Well, well, you know it was all sorts of things. Strange things happening during the war and you just accepted it and, you see, you know in Southampton, I forget how many people were killed, between four and five hundred in air raids, and well this was what was going on. People, you know, in those days really didn’t complain as much as they complain today.
CB: Your sister is older than you or younger?
AG: Older.
CB: Older.
AG: Older. Yes.
CB: So did she have -?
AG: She, she, she, she, she was married and they lived in rooms in Southampton, because again, this question of accommodation, you know, wasn’t easy. Yes. And they lived in two rooms in Southampton.
CB: Was there a requirement by the government that people should give up space for people to live with them, because of the shortage of housing, or how did it work?
AG: I didn’t ever hear that was actually pressed all that much. No, no I didn’t, I didn’t. The only other thing I, I remember about the house being destroyed, was some of my belongings in it of course, and there was a compensation scheme and I got sixteen pounds compensation for the loss of my belongings in that.
CB: Right.
AG: When, when that happened.
CB: How did you feel about that?
AG: Sixteen. Well I thought, this isn’t much but in those days, again, sixteen pounds wasn’t bad.
CB: No.
AG: Wasn’t bad, no, so that was it.
CB: Changing now to when you joined the RAF and started your technical training.
AG: Yeah.
CB: How did that go? How was it set out, mapped out as a course and what did you do in the course?
AG: Well it, for each subject that you were taught, they had corporals as instructors, and you just attended this classroom and on a particular day or week they, you were, well they would talk about air frames or, or whatever. Yeah. I can’t, to be honest, I can’t remember a great deal about that.
CB: No.
AG: It was just that you attended class every day and that was it. Yes. Yeah.
CB: And then you went on to the more advanced operate, as a mechanics course.
AG: Yes. The –
CB: So how different was that?
AG: The fitter’s course was more advanced.
CB: Right.
AG: Yes, and again the detail, after seventy five years, I cannot remember.
CB: No.
AG: But we did this advanced fitter’s course and that lasted another six weeks or so, so altogether I was at Kirkham –
CB: Yeah.
AG: You know, for quite some time, doing the two courses.
CB: Yeah. Now when you were at Calshot then, on the board, a notice appeared saying they were looking for aircrew, what prompted you to –?
AG: No. At Calshot, they were looking for people to volunteer to work in the aircraft industry.
CB: Ah, that was the aircraft industry.
AG: That was the aircraft industry.
CB: Right. Ok.
AG: That’s right. Yes.
CB: So what prompted you to do that?
AG: Well I saw it as a way of getting out of Calshot.
CB: Yes.
AG: To be quite honest, I thought I’ll get away from this dreary place but I didn’t realise what I was getting in to, because the work in the aircraft industry was jolly hard. And long hours, long hours. I mean, 8 o’clock in the evening till 6 o’clock the next morning with an hour’s break in the middle of the night, and that was –
[phone ringing]
AG: Ah –
CB: Stop for a mo.
[Recording paused]
AG: Is that yours?
CB: No, it’s yours.
AG: That was, that was, that was as I said, I didn’t –
CB: This was at Cowley.
AG: I didn’t know what I‘d let myself in for.
CB: No.
AG: But if I’d, if I’d have known, I probably wouldn’t have volunteered.
CB: Yes.
AG: But however yeah, well it was because it was long hours.
CB: Yeah.
AG: And it was every night of the week except one. We had one night off at the end of the week.
CB: So, so what exactly were you making that was part of the Lancaster?
AG: These spars for the fuselage.
CB: Right.
AG: Yeah.
CB: So they’re effectively the circles of structure that hold the –
AG: That’s right.
CB: Skin together.
AG: Yeah. That hold the skin together. That’s it.
CB: Right.
AG: That was, yeah, yeah, along with these four Welshmen.
CB: But you got on well together so that was good.
AG: Oh we got along well together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So then you mentioned that you were recalled by the RAF to go back to a, to the front line as it were.
AG: Yeah.
CB: And you went to 49 Squadron. What did you do?
AG: Well I went to Scampton first.
CB: Scampton. What did you do there?
AG: Which was the base station.
CB: Yeah.
AG: As they called it.
CB: Ok.
AG: Yeah.
CB: Scampton so –
AG: One of the satellites was 49 Bomber Squadron.
CB: Right.
AG: And that’s where I went and –
CB: Doing what?
AG: Working on Lancasters.
CB: Right. What sort of things were you doing on the Lancaster?
AG: Well anything that needed doing to the fuselage or whatever, yeah, anything.
CB: How did the ground crews on the front line squadrons react to damage to the aircraft from flak and so on?
AG: Well, again, people just got on with it, you know. If there was damage, you just repaired it and that was it. Yeah.
CB: How did, how did you put patches on?
AG: Oh well with, with rivets or whatever, but again, getting into the detail of all this now, Chris, I’m afraid I can’t –
CB: That’s ok.
AG: I can’t remember it all.
CB: It’s ok. It’s simply that on some planes that had fabric.
AG: Oh yes, yeah, but certainly –
CB: So that I’m drawing a –
AG: But certainly not the –
CB: Differentiation.
AG: Lancaster.
CB: No.
AG: No.
CB: No.
AG: No.
CB: Ok. So there you are, working on the ground as a rigger.
AG: As a fitter.
CB: Fitter –
AG: Fitter.
CB: I should say.
AG: Fitter. Fitter Group 1 tradesman. Yes.
CB: Group 1 tradesman, and at that point, another letter appears inviting you to –
AG: At that point, another letter appears calling for volunteers.
CB: Yeah.
AG: To become flight engineers.
CB: What attracted you to that prospect?
AG: Well, I thought, well that sounds alright. Yeah. Yeah. I’ll give that a go. So I volunteered and as I say, after a very short interview, they said, ‘Right. There is no training course at the moment, at the present time for flight engineers, but you will do a two week training course at the Rolls Royce Works at Derby’, and that’s where I went.
CB: And that’s where you did your engine training.
AG: And I did on the Merlin engine. Price. Predominantly they talked about the Merlin engine.
CB: Yeah.
AG: And the engine handling characteristics and all this sort of thing. Yeah. That was quite good there, Derby, I mean two weeks wasn’t a long time really. It wasn’t a long training course, was it?
CB: No.
AG: But at the end of it, they said, ‘You’re now a sergeant, here’s your brevet’, and that’s it and, ‘You will be assigned to a crew’.
CB: So this officer selects you at the Heavy Conversion Unit did he?
AG: At, at the squadron.
CB: Yeah.
AG: At the squadron.
CB: At the squadron.
AG: You were just, you had this short interview.
CB: Straight to the squadron.
AG: A very short interview.
CB: ‘Cause they didn’t have a –
AG: Yes.
CB: Heavy Conversion Unit then.
AG: No. No.
CB: No.
AG: A short interview.
CB: Right.
AG: Whilst you were on the squadron
CB: Yeah.
AG: And then they said, ‘Right. You’re, yeah, we’ll take you as a flight engineer, and you’ll do your training at Derby’.
CB: Yeah.
AG: And that was it.
CB: So you join the squadron, you get in the aircraft. Now how do you feel about your situation?
AG: Once we’d started operations you mean?
CB: Yes.
AG: Ah. I think if you speak to anyone who’s done operations during the war, the first operation, you weren’t worried at all about it because you didn’t know anything about it, and off you went and you quickly, you quickly found out what it was all about, and it was thereafter that you felt a bit twingy at times. Yes. But not on the first operation because you didn’t know anything about it, about operations but thereafter, well. And of course, the whole thing about operations was luck. It was nothing to do with skill or anything else, it was pure luck if you got through a tour of operations. On 514, we were the first crew to complete a tour of operations. The first one.
CB: Right. Thank you.
[Recording paused]
AG: We were very lucky as I say.
CB: So, on, on operations then, these can last anything up to eight hours.
AG: Yeah.
CB: You did a whole tour and more.
AG: Yeah.
CB: So how would you describe the sort, the operations you went on? Were they eventful or quiet or what were they?
AG: No. The, to start with, the operations on Hamburg if you remember, there were three operations over a period of four days and we did three of the, we did all three of the four.
CB: Right.
AG: And after the first one, then a couple of days later, or perhaps it was the next night we went out again, but according to the logbook, you can see by the logbook, when you were a hundred miles away, you saw the light in the air, and that was Hamburg burning, and then you got near and you did your sortie and you did it. And then, as I say, we did three to Hamburg, three, three trips to Hamburg. Certainly you remember that well enough and –
CB: What was the reaction of the crew to that?
AG: Well, you know, they [laughs], we just thought, well there you are. In fact, in the logbook too, there’s the piece of paper which is a “News of the World” report who interviewed us. In the logbook.
CB: Yes.
AG: In the back there.
CB: Yeah.
AG: Somewhere. And that was after one of the Berlin trips, and I said to them, I said to this reporter at the time, ‘After the war, I’d like to go to Berlin and tour around to see what it looks like’, and it’s in the newspaper report.
CB: Right. So was it just a curiosity or –?
AG: Curiosity.
CB: Yeah.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
CB: To know how it had worked.
AG: That’s right.
CB: This, this article says, “Blood red pall –
AG: Yeah.
CB: Over the heart of Nazi Germany”. Right.
AG: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
AG: Yeah.
CB: And did you get attacked on any occasions or how did that work?
AG: No. No. Never, never got attacked. Never. No.
CB: So the gunners were keeping an eye out.
AG: The gunner was keeping an eye out, yeah, poor old Twinny in the, in the, the rear gunner, he often used to get off the aircraft with frost on his moustache. He was the only one who had a moustache and he had the frost on the moustache. It must have been pretty, pretty grim for him.
CB: Yeah.
AG: Yeah. Especially when the flight was eight, eight, we, as I say, the longest flight was the Dresden one. That was eight and a half hours, but then there was the Nuremberg one which was quite a long flight, and the Munich one was a very long flight. So there were quite, quite a few long flights where poor old Twinny was freezing in the back.
CB: The Nurem –
AG: There was supposed to be some sort of heating but it’s quite often it wasn’t working. It didn’t work anyway. There you are.
CB: The Nuremberg one was clear weather and the loss rate was very high. What do you remember particularly about that?
AG: I remember that very, a great deal, the loss rate of aircraft was nearly a hundred. Nearly a hundred aircraft and so you’ll, you know, well there again, I thought, good God, you know. What are we doing, doing this? But there you are, but that was, that was the worst night of the war for the, for Bomber Command. Yeah.
CB: In what way did you feel –?
AG: Well because of the, the loss rate.
CB: Did you see bombers go down? Other bombers.
AG: At times, at times, at times you did, ‘cause over the target, you were sort of going in there about eighteen, eighteen to twenty thousand feet, but the German night fighters would fly above you and drop what they called candle flares, and these things slowly floated down and lit up the whole area.
CB: With a view to enabling them to see.
AG: With a view, with a view to them picking out the aircraft to attack.
CB: Right.
AG: And you were lucky that you weren’t attacked. Yeah. And again, the bombing run was the hair raising bit, because you came in and you had to go straight and level over the target so the bomb aimer could put his sights right and drop the bombs, but that again, was the hair raising bit, that bit where you had to go the same height for about three or four minutes.
CB: And then –
AG: Over the target.
CB: After the bomb release you still had to go straight and level.
AG: After the –
CB: To take the picture.
AG: Yeah. That’s right and then of course you got out as quickly as you could. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Always one way? Predictably always left or always right or what was it?
AG: Not always one way. Normally straight out and away, but I know the thought at the time was let’s get the hell out of here but again, you had to do your job.
CB: Yeah.
AG: And do that bombing run correctly.
CB: Yes. So you talked about Munich, what was partic, apart from the distance, what was particularly memorable about that.
AG: Again, I can’t, well, well no, I don’t. We just went to Munich, did the operation and that was it. Yeah.
CB: And then you mentioned Dresden. What’s memorable about Dresden?
AG: Dresden, I remember Dresden quite well because there was a lot of cloud over Dresden. A lot of cloud.
CB: At your height.
AG: At, at, at yes, well and below us, cloud below us. Yes, cloud below us. I do remember that quite, quite well, but again, we did the bombing run and of course, as you say, as you know with the bombing run, you were aiming your bombs at the Pathfinder markers.
CB: Yes.
AG: Yes. You know.
CB: Were they clearly visible?
AG: Yes. The red or the green markers and you were told at the briefing which ones to go for.
CB: Ah, right.
AG: To aim the bombs at.
CB: And on occasions did the, depending on where you were in the bombing stream, did the markers become obliterated by the fires and the smoke?
AG: Oh yes, yes, well they, yeah, that could happen quite easily. Yes, oh yes. The Pathfinders could drop the markers but then the fires would overcome them. Yes. That –
CB: And did they re-mark?
AG: No. Well, you heard of tales that they remarked, you know. You heard of Guy Gibson and how brave he was at doing this, and they used to hover around the target for some time but there you are. Yeah.
CB: So thinking of the war in total, what was the most memorable point in your perspective?
AG: Memorable points about the war. To start with getting away from Calshot was quite memorable I must say, working at the Cowley works was quite memorable. The Manna operation was, I suppose, one of the most memorable because to see the way that those people reacted when you dropped the food. I guess that was one of the most memorable.
CB: Their appreciation.
AG: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the way, the way they all responded when the thing hit the ground, you could tell. There was cheering and shouting and all waving their arms and all this business. Yeah.
CB: And –
AG: I remember that very well.
CB: Yes.
AG: Yeah.
CB: So when you got back from a sortie, there was always a de-brief. What was the de-brief after Manna flights?
AG: Well nothing very much, they just wanted to know whether the thing had gone, you know, because there wasn’t any hindrance as there would have been on an operation, a proper bombing operation. I mean, everything was there, quiet and you just came in to the park quietly and you did your drop. There was no interference from anybody. As I say the Germans had agreed that they would not interfere with Manna.
CB: And did you make the drop of the food at a reduced speed or the normal speed?
AG: No. At reduced speed, reduced speed. Yeah.
CB: To what?
AG: Yeah. Well I forget, but we reduced it so we were above stalling height, you know. To make the drop. If you were flying in too fast, you might, you might not drop it on the park, you might drop it on somebody’s house, so you reduced the speed coming in. Definitely, yes. Above stalling height.
CB: Good. Thank you.
[Recording paused]
AG: I forget where we’d been.
CB: Now one of the challenges in the bombing war was getting back to the airfield.
AG: That’s it.
CB: And the British weather with fog.
AG: Yeah.
CB: Was a pain.
AG: Yeah.
CB: So how did you deal with that?
AG: Yeah. Yeah. Well as I say, we were, we were, we were quite fortunate really but there was one time when we came back and there was this fog, and it was a question of, this fog was going to hang around for some time so FIDO came into operation each side of the runway, you know, these flames and things, so we landed that way. It only happened once.
CB: So it was a popular airfield that day.
AG: Yes [laughs]. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Because not many airfields had Fido, did they?
AG: No. No. No. No. FIDO.
CB: Right.
AG: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: I forgot to ask you Alex, whether you had any links and what they were with the American Air Force or Army Air Force as it was.
AG: No.
CB: In those days.
AG: Nothing. Never. No.
CB: But their aircraft –
AG: No links whatsoever.
CB: No.
AG: No.
CB: But their aircraft, the Flying Fortress. What did you do there?
AG: What? Well he just took us up.
CB: So, so you went somewhere where you, what did you do? You flew somewhere.
AG: We flew to this base.
CB: Yeah.
AG: This American Flying Fortress base, met Colonel Jumper, the commanding officer and he, he gave us a flight in the Flying Fortress.
CB: So what was that like?
AG: Oh that, that was alright. Of course, he didn’t do anything drastic, we just went up and just flew, flew around for a while.
CB: Yes.
AG: Yeah. But we walked through, through the aircraft. Examined it, you know. Those, at the rear of the flying fortress each side, they had these machine guns, didn’t they?
CB: Yeah.
AG: Yes. Looked at all that and it was just a day out really.
CB: In terms of its sophistication and crew comfort compared with the RAF aircraft, what was that like?
AG: Oh I think that, I think we were slightly more comfortable than the flying fortress and the flying fortress crew, I forget how many there were, but I think –
CB: Eleven.
AG: There were about eight or nine of them.
CB: Yeah.
AG: Yeah. In this what was regarded, compared to a Lancaster, was a smallish aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
AG: Yeah but they had all these gunners on –
CB: Yeah.
AG: On the Fortress didn’t they?
CB: Yeah.
AG: Yeah.
CB: That’s why the bomb load wasn’t very big.
AG: That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As I say, there we are.
CB: Right.
AG: I’m trying to think of any other highlights.
CB: Well.
[Recording paused]
CB: That’s it.
AG: In about April 1945, the rear gunner and I were called in and we were told that we had also been awarded the DFC because of the number of operations. The ten trips to Berlin and all this business.
CB: Yeah.
AG: So that’s the way we got it. It was regrettable I thought, that the wireless operator didn’t get it for some reason. I don’t know why.
CB: No.
AG: But it was just the rear gunner and myself.
CB: So the pilot and the navigator already had –
AG: The pilot –
CB: The DFC.
AG: They already had it, yeah. At the end of the tour.
CB: Yeah.
AG: They had got the DFC.
CB: Right.
AG: The pilot and the navigator only. But in the April ’45, the rear gunner and myself also got it.
CB: Right. Ok. And bomb aimer, nothing either.
AG: The bomb aimer. Well, the bomb aimer, at the end of the first tour, as I say, was regarded as the old man of the tour.
CB: Yeah.
AG: He was aged thirty two. Once he went off to this training unit, having completed the tour, we never heard of him again.
CB: No.
AG: Stan Young, his name was.
CB: Right.
AG: Stan Young. The pilot was called Colin Payne.
CB: Yeah.
AG: The navigator was Ken Armstrong. Now that’s another strange story about Ken Armstrong. At the end of our first tour of operations, Ken went off to a training unit, but then I don’t know if you know this, they started training people to work on British Airways after the war, but they already started recruiting them whilst the war was still on. And he, he applied for this and was recruited to go on the staff of British Airways before the war ended, and after the war, he ended up at Hurn Airport near Bournemouth where he operated from with British Airways. Ken then rose up in British Airways, and British Airways eventually did away with navigators and just kept pilots and, strangely enough, flight engineers. They were the only two crew members. And Ken, they kept two navigators back at British Airways headquarters at Heathrow, and he became quite a star navigator with British Airways, and whenever there was a royal flight, even though they had all the navigation aids, they always took a navigator with them, and he went on a number of royal flights and he ended up with the MVO, Member of the Victorian Order. And he became quite well known in British, they all knew Ken Armstrong because he was one of the two navigators left in British Airways, because they didn’t want navigators anymore with all, with all the navigation aids on board. But he, he did become quite well known. Yes. I mean my wife’s husband, Clive, ‘Oh yes’, he said, ‘Ken Armstrong. We all knew Ken Armstrong’.
CB: Your daughter’s husband.
AG: Yes.
CB: Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Alexander Charles Gilbert
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGilbertAC161013
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:22:03 audio recording
Description
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Alexander Gilbert, DFC, joined the Royal Air Force in November 1940, and was called forward for service on the 7th April 1941, rising to the rank of Squadron Leader. Alex had a very long and varied career for the Royal Air Force.
Upon his call up, he was trained as a Flight Engineer Air Frames where he passed in the top third of his class. He became a Group One Tradesman, Fitter 2A. He was posted to Calshot and then spent time working at Cowley Motor Works, manufacturing spars for the fuselage of Lancasters before being recalled and sent to Scampton.
He served with 49 Bomber Squadron before taking a Flight Engineers course and working on Merlin engines at Rolls Royce Works in Derby.
Alex was transferred to 9 Squadron at Bardney where he completed 10 operations, including 3 to Hamburg, then helped form 514 Squadron where he flew on missions to Berlin, and completed 14 operations. He became an instructor at No. 31 LFS at Feltwell, before returning to Operations at 149 Squadron in Methwold.
149 Squadron were involved in the Dresden operation and did 2 trips in Operation Manna, dropping supplies to Rotterdam and The Hague.
Alex had various other postings and completed 35 years’ service in the Royal Air Force, retiring at the age of 65.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
149 Squadron
49 Squadron
514 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
B-17
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
fitter airframe
flight engineer
ground crew
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Bardney
RAF Calshot
RAF Feltwell
RAF Foulsham
RAF Halton
RAF Kirkham
RAF Methwold
RAF Morton Hall
RAF Scampton
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Winthorpe
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/565/8833/PEvansDC1602.2.jpg
86b05a1f1363b47b738718b23de31580
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/565/8833/AEvansDC160714.2.mp3
c2f2de6871b83db8ca8bdb70d47cefb5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Evans, Derek Carrington
D C Evans
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Evans, DC
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Derek Carrington Evans (1924 - 2017, 2207080 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 625 Squadron. Also contains photographs of model Lancaster and people.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Derek Carrington Evans and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2016-07-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM. Ok so this is Annie Moody and I am with Derek Evans today. Derek was born in Doncaster he’s living in York at the moment and I am undertaking this interview at the Offices of Worans in Doncaster.
DE. He was born on the 20th of June 1924.
AM. 20th of June ’24, erm and todays date is the 14th of July 2016. So, Derek.
DE. I am 92.
AM. You’re 92, getting on a bit, but still.
DE. I am getting on a bit, yes.
AM. Derek tell me, you have told me when you were born, tell me a little bit about where were you born and tell me a little bit about your parents?
DE. I was born in the village of Doncaster, that’s Edlington, I was born [laugh] about twenty past nine one Friday morning and, eh my sister went to school and she came back and she got a new brother, and eh I don’t know what her reactions were but I heard plenty about it at the time [laugh], yeah eh, yes there was two of us. I had a brother as well who died em but em, there was Doris and me who lived and she died just a few years ago with rotten cancer and she was as good as, as healthy as me, which seemed anyway.
AM. What did you, what did your parents do Derek?
DE. What did?
AM. What did your parents do, what work did your dad do?
DE. My father, my mother was a housewife, my father was an electronic, electric engineer and em pneumatic. That’s em, he worked in the collieries installing the machinery.
AM. Right
DE. And em, and he served in the first war and em he got some medals for that, ‘cause he, one day he heard somebody crying in no mans land, he went over the top.
AM. So he was in the Army?
DE. Yes, he was in, first of all he was in eh [pause] thousands in the Middle East, what do you call it, the Dardanelles and he got away with that. In fact, he brought a shell back that had burst near him [laugh] and I have still got it somewhere.
AM. Still got it.
DE. And eh, eh, then he was, oh he was quite an authority in the eh Scout Movement, and eh if, if they haven’t been destroyed, I’ve got letters from Baden Powell to him and from Lady Baden Powell to him yeah, he helped in the formation of that.
AM. So were you in the Scouts?
DE. Oh I was.
AM. Tell me a bit about your childhood?
DE. Well, I went to school as an infant and, eh it was at Edlington, and eh I think my father must have had a bit better job than a miner because we lived in the top village and it was new, it was all new that, but I had to go down to the old village to school. And eh I used to go dressed, I had a little suit and a tie and did I get some hammer from the scrubbing sods down there, and eh the only thing I remember about that is I got hold of one of these lads and I pulled him up to me, and me hand went up like this, somebody got hold of it. It was me father.
AM. This was at school?
DE. Coming home from school em, yes, and I had waited for that devil because he had taunted me quite a bit. And eh I, I cured him.
AM. Your Dad stopped you thumping him?
DE. Yeah, I would really have done something [unclear], knocked him about I would.
AM. So that was the village school, what about when you were older and in your teens?
DE. That’s eh, one day my father came home from a colliery, I learnt after it was Bentley and there had been an explosion there and he was filthy, his clothes were in rags. And em, I heard him say to my mother, ’that’s the last time I go down the colliery’, and eh he gave his notice in and eh he had no job. And then he managed to get a supply of electrical goods, he was an electrician he knew all about that job and he was selling those, he used to go round the streets selling them and he built a good business up and then the war came. He lost all his contacts and we had to come out of our nice house and get a cooperation house, council house, and eh I went to, I then joined Doncaster Council.
AM. Let me just ask you, so what age were you when you left school then, ‘cause you would be fifteen when the war started, you left at fourteen.
DE. Em.
AM. So what was your first job?
DE. I got a job taking papers around and eh I gave my mother my first wage packet of five shillings, yeah. And eh and then I got eh, and then I left school at fourteen and I was on the streets.
AM. On the streets looking for a job you mean?
DE. Well walking about looking for a job and somebody said to me, “oh, you know Taylor of Colbridge’, do you remember them? ‘looking for an errand boy’ so I went in there and said, ‘I have come for that job’ and they gave it me.
AM. So what did you do, what did you have to do, what did that consist of?
DE. Well first of all it was delivering orders of books round Doncaster, eh and inside three months there were three other errand boys in there, and inside three months I was in charge [laugh], bighead [laugh]. And em, I er carried on there and eh the boss said, ‘would you like an apprenticeship?’ I said, ‘Yeah I would’, so I took an apprenticeship with them at ten and sixpence a week. Ten and six a week, which was a good wage in those days.
AM. A good wage indeed.
DE. And eh I carried on there and er and at six er at sixteen em, I was a junior there and at sixteen I was senior. All the folks had been pulled out in to the War and they left me in charge of that ruddy shop, d’know, at sixteen.
AM. So we are 1940at the beginning of the war, the first year of the war.
DE. Oh yes it would be, wouldn’t it?
AM. Yeah.
DE. And eh I run that all right, eh there was a lot of turnover I maintained it, eh I think it was, about thirty thousand a year, which was a lot of money.
AM. A considerable amount.
DE. I was in charge of about six women [laugh] old women, they were all twenties and thirties and they were all old to me of course, but I ran it, I carried on with it and eh part of there was printing you know, and of course I learned the printing job. I was a stationer, printer and bookseller officially when I came out of there. Well, I was eighteen, at seventeen, I heard they wouldn’t take aircrew unless you volunteered.
AM. Why did you want to be aircrew particularly rather than Army, Navy.
DE. Well, I thought it was a bit cleaner than being shot in trenches [laugh].
AM. True.
DE. Well, me father told me about his, he did fourteen to eighteen in the Army and he was in France, he was in Passchendaele. He used to tell me all about them actually and somewhere in that house of mine, I have got a recording of him telling the tale of the Red Baron being shot down over the trenches yeah.
AM. Baron Von Reichthoven.
DE. I’ve got that somewhere.
AM. So you are getting to seventeen, they wouldn’t take aircrew unless you volunteer.
DE. And I volunteered at seventeen, I went down to the Royal Air Force Recruitment Centre and got signed on.
AM. Right, where was that in Doncaster?
DE. In Doncaster, yeah, well my interest [unclear] out the place. My interest in aircraft started, oh, in the thirties because I was only a kid and my father used to take me to see the aircraft at Finningley, and in those days, you could walk on and walk up to the aircraft you know and I used to talk to the aircrews that were hanging about them, and eh I got really interested in, and they were, now then, Vickers Vimmies, em oh I can remember them over, I will tell you what they were later on, Vickers Vimmies.
AM. It’ll come.
DE. Aye?
AM. It’ll come
DE. Oh, it’s there yes and the Handley Page, eh the Handley Page, it had the gunner on the, in the front nose and the two engines were at the side of course. And eh, I had a look round and I was dragged into one, one day just to show, show me and I remember they had thirteen there and they went off on a [unclear], what did you call it eh, eh countryside eh, travels so. And eh thirteen took off and they got two back they crashed the rest of them.
AM. This was before the war?
DE. This was in the thirties, when the Vickers Vimmies and Handley Page Heyfords, Heyfords, em yeah and from then I have been interested in aircraft.
AM. So, you are interested in aircraft and you want something cleaner than the trenches, so off to the RAF Recruiting Officer.
DE. Yeah
AM. So they signed you up, but then what?
DE. Well eventually of course, my eighteenth birthday turned and they called me up into the Air Force and em I got, I got into the Aircrew Receiving Centre, Aircrew Receiving Selection Centre and it was in the Zoo in Regents Park [laugh].
AM. Had they, at that point, done any testing or anything to decide whether you were going to be aircrew or Ground Crew.
DE. Wait a minute.
AM. Sorry, going too fast.
DE. Typical woman rushing away [laugh].
AM. I apologise.
DE. And eh we was in the eh, the melee of being selected and, and, and I passed the exams for Pilot and they, after a week or two, we were square bashing at that, we were feeding amongst the monkeys [laugh], the zoo and eh one day some sort of Air Force bloke, I didn’t notice what his rank was in those days eh, ‘does anybody know morse code?’ I said, ‘yes I do’, ‘why?’ I said, ‘because I have got a radio station meself and with another bloke, we rented an office, an office we were using in the middle of Doncaster for half a crown a week’ [laugh], and we got all the gear in there. And eh this bloke said, ‘we are short of recruits for radio officers, do you think you could, like to transfer?’ ‘Yeah, I don’t mind, it’s flying, I’ll come’, and I then went down into the radio school and eh I spent twelve months there, came out, it tells you in the book there, came out and qualified a radio operator.
AM. So it was twelve months?
DE. I am sure it was twelve months yeah.
AM. Don’t matter, so what was that like, tell me a bit of what the training was like, easy, hard?
DE. It was hard yeah, it was not particularly hard for me actually em, they could fire morse at me all the days of the year and I could take it then, it’s a good job ‘cause when I was flying on operations, I had, it was all the time morse was coming in from headquarters em, eh Bomber Command headquarters. Go on, you tell me?
AM. No I can’t remember.
DE. And eh it all came in code and you had to be taking it down, writing it out and I could take twenty words a minute then [laugh], and I used to say to the Pilot, ‘oh there is diversion on, we are diverted when you get to such and such a place’, and that is how a radio operator used to perform and weather reports used to come through.
AM. So you finished your training as a wireless operator, what happens next after that.
DE. Well, I got, I don’t know, I was selected and I was given a course of radio navigation and it was a month, and I had a what I call them ‘sprog pilots’, they had just qualified and they wouldn’t trust a good pilot with me [laugh], and I used to fly all over the country and tell him where to go and what city he is going to do. I did that for a month, I did it successfully and I was passed out as a radio operator one then, and then I went to gunnery school and I went to, majority of them didn’t but I was selected to go to Gunnery School and I have no idea why.
AM. Not as a trained radio operator, not when you were already a trained wireless operator.
DE. Well in Bomber Command eh, there were more WOP/AG’S because if anything happened to the rear gunner, he was shot, my job was to crawl down there, open the doors, chuck him out into the open space and get in, sit in the guns [laugh] and that was the procedure yeah. I went to gunnery school, I have got the results there, they are good results and eh [looking through papers].
AM. I am just flicking through the log book for the tape to find where we are up to.
DE. Let’s have a look at it please.
AM. So we are looking at, we are looking at the initial trips here and the results of the initial courses.
DE. You are nowhere near the operation here.
AM. No, I know, no, no.
DE. Ah this is it look, extra syllabus.
AM. So we are May, June ‘44 and we are on the gunnery course.
DE. Yes
AM. And the results of the gunnery course are above average a very keen Cadet.
DE. [laugh] and when I were in gunnery, I used to be in the top turret of an aircraft in the mid upper gun turret, and eh they used to fly, now then a master, or an em, they are Masters aren’t they? Single engined training aircraft towing a long drogue and we had to hit it. You had to fire at that thing coming over you.
ME. A bit like clay pigeon shooting, not.
DE. Oh, I have done plenty of pigeon shooting.
ME. Oh later on. So, I’m looking at the fact that you were given extra syllabus training, given in lieu of bad weather, which cancelled flying.
DE. Yes, ah and that’s Dominies, isn’t it? Yeah, Domini that’s it. The De Havilland Domini was a twin engined twin winged aircraft I don’t know whether you -
ME. No.
Unknown. A biplane.
DE A biplane yeah, it was a lovely aeroplane that, lovely.
AM. So you have done your WOP training, you’ve done your gunnery training. What next?
DE. Eh after gunnery, I don’t know what they call it, it was advanced flying school, oh that’s advanced gunnery course.
AM. You moved onto the Operational Training Unit I would guess.
DE. No not yet.
AM. No, was that later?
DE. [unclear] Wigton that is on the West Coast of Scotland and I don’t know what we were supposed to be doing there, have I made notes of it? [pause] It’s just the details of what we were doing, I don’t know. Anyway, that’s Advanced Flying School, and then I went to No. 18 Operational Training Unit. How I got to there was, we were paraded one morning and eh this corporal came out and he said, ‘I am going to read out names and say a place where you are posted to. You will find that some is going to Leuchars in Scotland’. The bloke next to me said, ‘I live at Leuchars’, he said, ‘the others are at Finningley at Doncaster’. I said, ‘and I live at Doncaster, what is your name, I will swap you names’. Well, this Leuchars name came up, put me hand up, join the queue for Leuchars. No, I, t’other way round, yes, and when it was all, come out in the wash, I was going to Bomber Command, so I thought I had dropped a clanger here, and he was going to Coastal Command, so anyway I joined 18 and we were, we were put in a big, we were put in a Hanger with four, and there was a desk in there and there were four candles. The bloke sat there he re [unclear] they got a seventy-two scale Spitfire if you like and he went, and you had to shout out, and I got everyone right.
AM. Right, so what were you looking at?
DE. I was looking at the aircraft.
[Unknown]. Aircraft recognition.
AM. I’ve got you actual recognition of aircraft, I’ve got you.
DE. An eh, Peter Russell, who was and who’d come and he was in this hall, and there was about four hundred of us and eh he came to me and he said, ‘would you like to become my radio operator?’ and he had done a tour.
AM. How did you know he had done a tour.
DE. He told me.
AM. Ok but he had a little brevet as well that shows that they had done a tour I think. He talks about that in his book that maybe at crewing up, people were happy to join him because he had already done a tour, so you are probably going to be safe with him.
DE. Yeah, he was good looking too.
AM. Right, so he decided.
DE. Couldn’t keep the girls off him.
AM. So at crewing up then, there’s you.
DE. So, there is a Pilot, Colin Richardson, Navigator, Derek Evans the Radio Operator and Titch Haldred the Rear Gunner, is that it?
AM. Yeah, I have got them written down.
DE. Where do you get that from?
AM. The book.
DE. Oh, I see and I did quite a fair lot, quite a lot of flying to a lot of places.
AM. And this was on Wellingtons.
DE. Wellingtons, we used to go wandering around the Continent you know and eh and from then -
AM. Sorry to interrupt, so at this point there is five of you, ‘cause you are in a Wellington and you are doing your training on Wellingtons based in, where were you actually?
DE. Finningley.
AM. You stayed at Finningley.
DE. Eh well we used to use the satellite at Worksop.
AM. Yes, I had scribbled down Worksop.
DE. Finningley was the base and em, and then what, what happened then. Oh, went to eh, four engined aircraft and that was Halifaxes.
AM. So this is heavy conversion unit to get you used to big boys.
DE. Yes, and therefore we had two crew, we had an engineer and a mid-upper gunner.
AM. And I think I’ve got the names here. Tim Cordon was your Flight Engineer and Tony Large was your Mid Upper Gunner. So you picked up your extra two and got seven of you.
DE. No, I am telling lies, he was a Dubliner. I said to him, ‘what the hell are you doing here?’ he said, ‘you don’t think you are fighting the war on your own’ [laugh].
AM. So you went to Heavy Conversion Unit I think at em, Blyton.
DE. Blyton yes, it was the base was Lindholme, but the airfield was -
AM. Was at.
DE. Yeah.
AM. And that was initially on Hali, on old Halifaxes.
DE. Yeah.
AM. So what was the wireless operator bit, room, not room, area like in the Halifax?
DE. Ruddy awful, in fact I, I wouldn’t say it terrified me but it frightened me to death.
AM. Why was it ruddy awful?
DE. Well, there was a staircase and em, the Pilot sat on the top of this staircase and I sat directly under him, in trouble and the aircraft spinning, do you think I got down those stairs? No, no, you were pinned in, no, you had no room, I had full radio gear there. I could do all the nice flying, I could do everything you want to but I wouldn’t have like to thought I was getting in operations in it. Anyway, then we went to Lancaster Finishing School at Hemswell, an eh -
AM. So how different, tell me how different was, the Lancaster was to the Halifax.
DE. Well, it is like coming, sitting in this room instead of a back passage somewhere yeah, you could walk about in a Lanc.
AM. And the wireless operator area was better?
DE. Well, there was the pilot, there was the bomb aimer, our front gunner and then there was the pilot and then there was the navigator and the radio operator, we sat together and that was a flight crew. You couldn’t take a four engined aircraft off without having a pilot, navigator and a radio operator yeah, three and eh good job as well, I will tell you later on. I pulled them out of the drink.
AM. Got some stories. So, you done your heavy conversion training, what did that consist of? Just basically up there?
DE. Circuits and bumps.
AM. Circuits and bumps.
DE. And familiarisation with the aircraft of course, but the radio gear was the same so I didn’t need any conversion to that because I knew that backwards.
AM. For your pilot of course, who was moving onto a completely different plane, to fly from what he had been used to on his first tour.
DE. Yeah, oh he used to fly Hudsons, that’s an American twin engined originally a civil aircraft and eh yeah, I’ll come to him in a minute if you like? [laugh].
AM. Sorry, where am I up to, we know where are you, so you have done your circuits and bumps, your heavy conversion training, got your crew.
DE. And then got posted to a Squadron, 625 Squadron.
AM. Yep, at RAF Kelstern.
DE. Kelstern, and the CO met us, because we were two crews posted there to replace two lost last week. So he says, ‘Good evening gentlemen, the only thing we can guarantee here is two weeks life. The crew, the other crew took off with us on the first operation and was lost’. They had one life em I went, well we went as a crew we went on, we went on, we did a tour, we did.
AM. When he said that to you though Derek, you are twenty years old.
DE. Twenty.
AM. You’re twenty. You have not done your first operation yet and he is telling you you’ve got -
DE. A years . .[unclear].. well
AM. I can’t imagine how that felt or what you thought about that?
DE. Em, well we were a little bit bravado, we said, ‘well we will bloody show you’ [laugh] yeah well Peter had done two years operational flying before that and our first operation was to Essen.
AM. Was this the, on your first one, well first of all, you start off, your pilot has to go as second dicky and not all of you went with him.
DE. I don’t know if I went on his second dicky or not, I can’t remember, but he normally took, this is the old, this is the experienced taking the new crew, they actually, they were the, he used to take, the old pilot, used to take the new pilot as second pilot, and he used to take his own navigator and his own rear gunner. So I wouldn’t go on that dicky, second dicky. I did a few of those when we took a new crew on ops.
AM. I’m just looking, so when you did your first one
DE. Was Essen.
AM. Right, let’s find it [pause]. Circuits, here we are. So, the very first one was HLB?
DE. High Level Bombing.
AM. High Level Bombing at Essen. So, tell me right, so this first operation you’re going to Essen, what was that like from the beginning. As in, you know, you are going, you start off, it’s going to be a night, night flight.
DE. Will you close your ears a minute [laugh]. Em the Battle Order, that’s an illustration of the Battle Order in there, it was posted in the mess in the morning and we had to go for breakfast, and eh we thought oh, tonight so what we did as a crew, at ten o’clock we used to go down to the aircraft and we used to go through it like a dose of salts. We used to make sure everything was working and the first thing we did was to say to the ground crew, ‘what’s loaded on here?’ and they used to say, ‘eighteen hundred gallons’ or ‘two thousand gallons’, and of course, if it was two thousand five hundred, we used to say, ‘a long one tonight’. Then we em, went back and had a meal and then we went to kitting out. Put our ‘chutes on and whatever we were going to wear. We used to find out by devious means the temperatures, ‘what are we going to wear?’” So, and then we went into briefing and eh I went into radio briefing, navigator went into navigator briefing and so on, and gunnery and then we had a briefing altogether where you saw the wall, and we used to think ‘bloody hell’ [laugh]. And eh we used to then get in the bus and took out to dispersal, where we climbed in our aircraft. And by ritual all aircrew before an op, had to wee on the wheels.
AM. That is better than doing it up in the air isn’t it?
DE. Yeah, you diverted me a little bit
AM. Sorry.
DE. It’s all right. It was really cold, I mean I’ve flown in minus fifty I, I, actually in conjunction with this, I’ll have to write you a story about Essen, I can tell you.
AM. Tell me what the story is?
DE. I can’t really without thinking about it but eh, Essen, we were up through the flak barrage but we didn’t enquire, we didn’t, we didn’t involve running into a fighter, and we came back on that and eh. That’s where that poor devil lost his life on that first flight of the next crew that we were replacing. So that was Essen done. Come back, you got a cup, a mug of cocoa and half a mug of rum.
AM. A mug?
DE. You could treacle it out the rum you know, if it was naval rum. I didn’t drink, it sort of thawed you out a bit ‘cause you come back from these raids, and I will say it quite bluntly, you were terrified. And em, and then of course you went to your bed and you slept very soundly.
AM. Did you speak with each other about how terrified you were or did you keep that to yourself?
DE. No, no, we, no, no, we talked about it. Because one was saying, ‘did you see that fighter, did you see that, did you see that going down on so and so’. Oh no, you portrayed the whole lot together because the pilot had a different view all together over the rear gunner. I had a different view of them all because I had the radar and I could, I could see every aircraft in, in the Bomber Stream.
AM. Is that the Fishpond?
DE. Fishpond, oh I have saved the, with that I have saved the crew on numerous occasions where I have said to Titch, in the tail, em, ‘aircraft two thousand yards astern, don’t know what it is but it looks quite small and it is going fast’, so we presume -
AM. So it is not a Lancaster then.
DE. It is not a Lancaster, well I can see all the lights around us em, because I used to say to the pilot ‘increase your height by about two hundred feet, ‘cause there is somebody converging on us’, and it would be another one of the stream, ‘cause we had a thousand in the stream you know. And he would raise the aircraft and you would feel the wash of something passing underneath and that was going to be a collision had we not had the knowledge. Mm, so, and then I would say to the, I would say to Titch in the tail, we called him Titch, he was about my size actually, and eh I would say to him ‘seventeen fifty yards, fifteen hundred yards, twelve hundred yards, you are now coming up to a thousand yards’, and he would say ‘I can see him’ and so, and once, I don’t know which. Well I do, I have got it somewhere down eh, I heard him say ‘bloody hell, there’s four of them’. and so they came in and eh the first one actually went up and he set a Lanc on fire above us. We saw them bale out and floating down and it exploded, and all the flaming petrol landed on the ‘chutes and they went, and the next one he decided to have a go at us. He went out to, he went out to starboard and was coming in like this, and I was counting out to Torrey in the top turret, ‘he is just above the horizon, em and is in within oh, he is coming up to about nine hundred yards now from us’, and I said to him, “he will, he’s a fighter and his guns point forward, he’s got to level himself up with us’. and I kept saying to him, “he’s levelling up, he’s levelling up, he’s levelling up’, and I heard Torries’ guns going brrrrr and this thing, so he got him, shot him down [laugh]. And em, the other time, our rear gunner never shot anybody down but he knew where they were, so they didn’t come in his range, but twice Torries came in because once a Junkers 88 came alongside us and he was stalking a Lanc in front of us, and he didn’t see us. Then I heard Torrey, and I heard Peter shout, ‘who’s firing?’ He said, ‘it’s me, oh I have just hosed a Junkers 88 down’. He must have killed the crew ‘cause it went straight down. Aye, I didn’t like to see that just the same, whether it was the enemy or what, but I do know if it hadn’t been the enemy, it would have been us.
AM. Exactly, exactly.
DE. And em, oh this went on night after night.
AM. Can I just ask you about that Cologne trip. So, it is your second one and I believe you, if I have got this one right, is this one where you had to land somewhere else?
DE. Oh, we were going, we were running in on the target and there was Kenny the Bomb Aimer just shouted ‘steady, steady, steady, steady, bombs open, bomb doors open, steady, bombs gone’, and the old Lanc, you know, we used to be at about seven or eight, yes, five hundred foot, it used to rise you know and then eh [pause], well heard, it was a god almighty bang, crash and lit the whole aircraft up and I thought [unclear], and eh we levelled up, Peter caught it again and we got it flying and [pause], no at that time he said, ‘I lost me, I haven’t lost me bombs’, so we went round again like stupid idiots, and we let our bombs go and him at the front said, ‘I haven’t got any bomb sight, the shell has hit it and destroyed our bomb sight’, so some wag in the back shouted, ‘let’s dive bomb them then’ [laugh] and we did, we used Cologne Cathedral as the sighting point and missed it.
AM. Was this the one where the compass and the chart didn’t match and you later found out that the compass had been shot up actually.
DE. Well what happened was that big flash [unclear], a shell had burst next door to us very, very close and had shaken all the navigation equipment that was fixed to the walls, onto the floor and Colin was groping round looking for it, and em we are flying along and em, I suddenly said to him, ‘Colin, you are running on about 230 degrees’, and I said ‘if my memories right, that’s heading for the Atlantic, yeah West’, you see, ‘no I’m not’. I said, ‘you are’, anyhow, I am arguing with him and I knew he was wrong.
AM. How could you tell?
DE. I could see all the bomber stream, I could see the fighters attacking them on the stream.
AM. On the fishpond.
DE. On my Fishpond and eh I saw the bomber stream converging north, and us converging west and eh anyway, Peter the Pilot he said, ‘what are you two arguing about?’ I said, “well we are off course, we should be wanting to swim back shortly because we are heading for the Atlantic’, and eh he talked to Colin for a minute or two and then he said to me, ‘Derek, take us home’, just that, ‘take us home’, and he dismissed Colin as navigator and eh I brought ‘em home, I brought ‘em home, and eh I got, I was given them the courses, I could read the courses off and I thought, thank god I had had some navigation training. We were, we were flying up country and I said I can’t get em, eh a beacon from Binbrook, because that was the local with the em, the pilots thing, that’s right, and if you keep those like that, you will get to where that is being transmitted from and if it collapses, you are on, turned over it. So anyway, I couldn’t raise Binbrook and I couldn’t raise Binbrook and eh we were flying up country, and our rear gunner shouted, ‘there is an aircraft below us, in car headlamps’. Because I had just said to Peter, ‘by god, you are flying low’, he said, ‘I am looking for a field’, he said, ‘we have no juice hardly’. Eh so I said to him, ‘you use your flight control radio’, it’s a little radio in the pilots cockpit and I said, ‘shout Darky on it’, and eh he shouted, “Darky, Darky’, and all the lights came on and he whipped it round like that and banged it down on the runway, and eh a car came and he followed us to dispersal and em it was an American, it was half American and half British, I can’t imagine.
AM. Falkingham.
DE. Falking.
AM. Falkingham.
DE. Falkingham yeah that’s right, she knows more than me about this.
AM. Oh I don’t.
DE. [laugh] I didn’t notice you sat at the side of your mam like.
AM. I am a bit younger than that.
DE. I would have thought, you are alright anyway [laugh]. Anyway em, we parked and we went into the mess, God, the food was beautiful. The Americans used to fly their own food in you know, and eh it was served like pigs. You walked past the table with all this beautiful stuff on it, custard, kippers.
AM. All together?
DE. All together a plate full of [unclear]. The next morning, as usual, we went to look at our aircraft, ten o’clock in the morning, we always used to gather round the aircraft and eh it was like a colander. There were holes in it and eh Peter said to a so called engineer, who was walking about there, ‘how long are you going to get this kite ready, how long is it going to be?’ and he said, ‘that’ll not fly again’. And eh there was an unexploded shell which lodged in the port outer engine, if that had gone bang, um.
AM. And what about the compass, because at this point Colins compass, you brought them home because the compass wasn’t working.
DE. I bought mine, yes, through my radio detection gear.
AM. What happened to the compass.
DE. It was lying on the floor.
AM. So that had been shot as well.
DE. It had shot off, well I don’t know whether the explosion but it was lying on the floor of the aircraft at the back because the, the rear, what do you call it? That compass anyway was lying on the floor and it was giving all sorts of bloody readings to him, ‘cause I couldn’t believe that Colin had lost us because he had run us into targets and kept the forty five second window that we got to bomb.
AM. So Colin was vindicated.
DE. Yes, I he grumbled at me a bit ‘cause I, I told him, ‘You are out of your mind, Colin, you are wrong’, [laugh] and I knew he was.
AM. But it was his equipment rather than him?
DE. It wasn’t Colin, no, no.
AM. So that was only your second operation and you had to get back. Then how did you, you get back from there [unclear].
DE. On a truck.
AM. And what did they say to you when you got back to your own base?
DE. First thing I done, I went into Flying Control and I said, ‘what happened to the comp. The transmitter at Binbrook’, I said, ‘I couldn’t get that for the last, we were half up the country’. And I could have brought Peter with that device over the airfield, and I couldn’t and fortunately, the rear gunner shouts, ‘there is an aircraft in the car headlamps’. Anyway, ah I walked into Flying Control, Peter Russell, Colin Richie and Derek Evans, there was a line through us. They had written us off, dead and they wouldn’t answer my calls, and anyway, we had that out with them with a little bit of fury [laugh] and we were alright with them then, I mean. The aircraft didn’t fly again for some months and we got it again once.
AM. Did you?
DE. Yes, aye, but there was a hole in the floor, hole in the floor between me, and I used to sit with the navigator, close as this and our table was here, and eh there was a hole in the floor, hole in the ceiling something had come through and missed the pair of us. And my father was right, wasn’t he, ‘cause when I started this he said, ‘don’t worry lad’, he says, ‘the Devil looks after his own’ [laugh].
AM. But somebody was.
DE. Yeah, my mother was a spiritualist and, on that night, it was three o’clock when we landed, and she wouldn’t let me father and her go to bed, ‘he’s in trouble’, and at three o’clock she said, ‘he’s alright’.
AM. He’s alright now.
DE. That’s fantastic ‘aint it.
AM. Do you want a rest?
AM. So I am looking at other stuff that I’ve got here. I’ve, I’ve so we have done the Essen, we’ve done the Cologne, then we have Düsseldorf, Bochum.
DE. Bottrop, we were attacked by about four ruddy German fighters there with that. It was a terrible job that, I don’t know whether, I got some, I got some, I got some good notes but I never carry them about with me.
AM. I have got some here where, I think it was on your third one, that was one where I think you saw and aircraft hit. Tell me about, there was one, there was one where you had a near head on crash?
DE. Oh god aye, we were flying, well, we did, no, not quite all night bombing but most of it. That’s the aircraft I got together and the only things I haven’t made are the wheels, I couldn’t do rubber wheels.
AM. We are looking now at a picture of a model of E for Easy, Derek’s second Lancaster that he made and I have got a photograph of that.
DE. Do you know how long it took to make that?
AM. A long time.
DE. Two thousand four hundred hours, because I built it from the plans, and all these engines and all the ribs and everything are all scale fifteen scale. Two thousand four hundred hours and it is a beautiful model and it is made to fly, and I put it on our drive eh, I opened the throttles and it shot forward and I closed them. I thought that’s not going into the air ‘cause [unclear].
AM. You wouldn’t get it back. Tell me about the operation where you had a near head on crash?
DE. Oh well, it’s in the Ruhr, we had done the bombing and suddenly, we were flying like that, suddenly we went down and I looked up and I saw an aircraft pass over the top of us. I thought ‘bloody hell, that was a close one’, and Peter says, ‘I was watching that aircraft come towards us’, he says, ‘and when the wings filled my windscreen, I thought I had better dive’, and that one went up and it was a German fighter.
AM. Right.
DE. So he nearly got his chop as well.
AM. I am looking at, I am looking back at Derek’s log book here, at all the various things. So, in November ‘44 now we are talking about. So, thinking about what is happening generally, we have had D-Day, the Army.
DE. No, not in.
AM. In November ‘44.
DE. Yes, yes, D-Day was, was it June ‘44?
AM. June ‘44.
DE. Oh yes.
AM. So the Army are working their way up towards Germany now and you are still flying over Germany.
DE. We are taking out important points eh Dortmund, Durkheim, [unclear], Dortmund, good gracious.
AM. I think you bombed quite a few railway, railway lines as well, railway yards.
DE. And also, oil refineries.
AM. What did you think, if you did think at all about, about the, the people on the ground.
DE. Nothing, afterwards yeah, I thought oh dear, we got reports back, you had killed so many on that night and eh, we as a crew had killed four hundred and fifty Germans or something, and I was sorry. I don’t like killing eh, we have had to kill ah, while these German fighters were levelling their guns up, we had to kill ‘em quick or it was the man who got in first.
AM. Kill or be killed.
DE. Yeah, but I didn’t like, I didn’t like it particularly. I am not a killing man but you are if you get in the right circumstances em, yeah [laugh] yes. Em just to jump a year or two, I was, I didn’t attend a meeting and I was appointed President of an Air Gunners Association over the north here somewhere, and I thought, ‘flipping heck’, and eh I then said to myself, ‘what did I do. I know, lets go see if there is any German fighter pilots still alive’. I went to Germany, I walked into a Luftwaffe station, I said, ‘does anybody know anything about flying here?’ [laugh].
AM. And they said?
DE. Oh, I got ever so friendly with them, as a matter of fact, it eh, em we got invites to, my wife and I, got invites to stay with them and we invited them and their wives to stay with us. It culminated in, I cleared a couple of fields, ‘cause I still have the farm and em, I got, I asked the, I knew the Army, a Major in the Army, Richard somebody or other, and I said, ‘do you do any manoeuvres?’ and he said, ‘why’, I said, ‘I have quite a few acres of woods and fields’, ‘Oh’, ‘the price is couple of marquees and a field kitchen on Saturday, such and such a date’, ‘yeah that’s easy, yeah I’ll do that’, and they arrived and I issued an invitation to British and German aircrews, a hundred and twenty eight turned up. The wife says how are you going to feed these? Well, we got a few sausage rolls and that, and I said, ‘oh I know something’, and I went into see the CO at Finningley, a David Wilton, he was very friendly with us and eh I said ‘can I borrow a Jetstream for an afternoon?’ He said ‘what do you want one for?’ I said ‘I’ve got a hundred and twenty five British and German aircrew starving in a field of mine and I know that’, what is the German station, closing one down [pause] and eh I will think about it and I had heard on the grapevine that there was chucking food away and stuff, and so to fetch all these bottles of whisky and food into Finningley, it wasn’t changing hands was it? It was RAF in Germany and RAF in England, and eh when we put the, when we put the piles of food down on pallets, my drive was eighty five yards long and it was full, we had tons. I was, I was moved of course, I got a field kitchen cooking and eh I thought, ‘I wonder where they make all the sausages in Germany’. Just as a thought, so I undid a big bundle and got down to a small package, a kilo or something and it said ‘in case of complaint, such and such a company, Burnley’ [laugh]. I held it up and I said you bloody Krauts can’t even make your own sausage.
AM. Can’t make a sausage. I am going to pause while we have some lunch.
AM. So we are back now, we have had lunch, a bit of refreshment and Derek is raring to go, I think.
DE. Raring to carry on.
AM. Raring to carry on. So, we, we have talked about his early life and we have gone through joining up, crewing up, squadron, some of his first operations em. I think just before we paused, Derek was telling us about the near miss when he nearly had a head on crash.
DE. Yeah, I looked up and saw this bloody aeroplane two inches above me, well it seemed like it.
AM. Not long after that em, I think your pilot became a squadron leader, your squadron leader.
DE. Yes, he was.
AM. What difference did that make to rest of you as a crew, did that make a difference?
DE. No, no, no, no he, all the crews were all a family, all the crews were a family.
AM. Right.
DE. The only time I couldn’t get near him was what I used to crudely call ‘Birding’.
AM. Playing out with the ladies.
DE. Yes, and he was very good at that.
AM. You don’t mean, you don’t mean bird watching with binoculars then?
DE. Eh I don’t think he would know one bird from another actually.
AM. Also just before we finished or maybe just after we switched off, you talked about a landing at Sturgate with Fido, tell me about that, what happened?
DE. Well eh, they put some eh pipes and they didn’t quite join them up, there were leaks in them on both sides of the runway and [unclear].
AM. Yes, so as you are coming back from, dropped your bomb load, on your way back and it is not foggy as you are coming back.
DE. And I am saying to Peter, oh I got it through the ‘we can’t land at Kelstern’, ‘Oh?’ ‘We have been diverted to Sturgate’. ‘What’s Sturgate, we don’t have been of there’, ‘it’s Fido, Fog Investigation Dispersal Operation’, and em we arrived over Sturgate, there was just a blazing mass, there’s the air and the fog had been moved up to about five thousand feet I should think, so it was above, above the runway and the runway was just a mass of fire actually and Peter said, ‘god [unclear]’. Anyway, he landed down there and we were frightened, we didn’t want to get a tyre burst or anything, and em we landed there and then we taxied back up the runway, and we picked up a truck with lights flashing and took us into dispersal. That was it, we stayed there for the night. It was em, it was a dangerous job landing on that job, if you got anything went wrong with you and you veered off, you were burnt.
AM. It went down both sides of the runway, didn’t it, all the way down.
DE. Both sides about six thousand gallons of petrol, a minute was burning oh, colossal, colossal amount.
AM. How many times did you have to land on a FIDO? Just the once?
DE. Just the once um [laugh].
AM. Good job.
DE. Yeah, we took off on it, we got, the next day, message came through that Kelstern was clear, so we said ‘right, we might as well take off and get on back’, and so we did.
AM. But it was still foggy where you were?
DE. It was still blazing so we actually took off amongst the blazing petrol and em got up to a reasonable height and cleared off then.
AM. And got back to Kelstern.
DE. Lovely station was Kelstern, it was a -
AM. What was it like, tell me what Kelstern was like?
DE. A field.
AM. But you just said it was a lovely Station, what was lovely about it?
DE. Em, it was a family, there were no rules and regulations, it was just a station carved out of the countryside and all we got round there was just fields and woods, and eh it suited me because I had been used to woods and fields. We spent a nice time there and eh everybody knew everybody, there was no ‘morning Sir’, in fact the boss there was Air Vice Marshall John Baker. I saved his life once and he always called me Derek, never airman.
AM. So how did you save his life. I think I know this story but tell me anyway?
DE. Well, we set of to bomb em some German positions that were holding the British Army up.
AM. You say we, so he was with you.
DE. Oh Aye yes, he was with us and em we were flying over the North Sea and I got a message from headquarters, eh position over run, return to base and take your bombs and fuel back. Thirty two of aircraft and bombs and I said to Peter, ‘yeah whip it round, we have a recall’, and he said ‘our position is to fly with the boss’.
AM. So he was in a separate aircraft.
DE. Oh, in a separate aircraft, we were the aircraft escorting him because Peter was high up then in rank, and em we were to fly in Vic formation with him. You have heard of Vic formation, haven’t you?
AM. Yeah, yeah.
DE. And we kept on flying and I said, ‘Peter. aren’t you turning round?’ He said ‘I can’t let him fly over ‘cause we’re getting near the Dutch coast there you see’. So eh he said eh, so I said, ‘go a bit closer to him’, and I got the Aldiss lamp out and I winked out the message, and that stupid radio operator said, ‘Why?’. And I signalled back ‘read your bloody bomber [unclear] broadcasts’, and he disappeared and he did and em just before the Dutch coast and the Dutch defences. There were rockets you know. We used to fly along and a rocket would be fired and we would steer round it [laugh], you can’t believe it can you? And em I saw him then turn and we flew back with him, and em he said to me, he says, ‘thank you for saving my life’.
AM. So neither of you had dropped your bombs, the whole lot had to land.
DE. We were loaded with petrol and bombs, thirty tons, and em Peter came in, came in last ‘cause we, they had all gone, they had all gone to land except for the gaggle, us and Peter said, ‘I will let him land and go back in after’, so we did an orbit or two and eh then he came in. His rate of sink was too much because a hundred mile an hour was the rate of sink of a Lanc you know, coming in to land. He was sinking a lot and he slammed the throttles forward and he came in a hundred, came in to land on full throttles and we [unclear]. I was in the astrodome, I thought, ‘bloody hell, we are not, we are going to be buried automatically in the field here, you know’, and em, he touched down and then, he was like this, wheel to wheel and he banged open the throttles and took off, and we went round and come and did a proper landing then. We got in the crew bus and we were detached, dispatched outside the Flying Control near the parachute section and all that, and there was John Barker, the Boss, he got all the air crew kneeling down on the hard runway and we were all with this.
AM. Bowing.
DE. Yeah, and Peter said to him ‘what’s all this’, and he said, ‘any bugger who can survive a landing like that is a god’ [laugh].
AM. I can’t, I can’t imagine landing with the full bomb load and how scary that must be.
DE. It was scary. A burst tyre would have made things hot.
AM. Very.
DE. Oh you wouldn’t have got away with it if you had burst a tyre.
AM. You know that Vic formation that you said, what does Vic stand for? I know what it is like and arrow head.
DE. Vee
AM. Oh vee, of course, yeah, but I was trying to work out what the I and the C stood for.
DE. Vic
AM. Vee, Vic, so it is the phonetic alphabet, isn’t it?
DE. Three aircraft.
AM. It is the point at the front.
DE. Yes, that the Vic.
AM. The ones that take the flak.
DE. Yeah.
AM. I read in the book that you led a formation of about two hundred at the front of that, and Colin got them all there and got them all back.
DE. Yeah, oh he was a good bloke was Colin, he was a bit shirty with me when I said, ‘you are bloody miles out, Colin’, ‘oh no I’m not, no I’m not’, and Peter says, ‘what are you two arguing about?’
AM. To be relying to, on his instruments. I am looking at, I am still looking at your log book here at some of the others “Gaggle Leader Training.”
DE. Yes, you are talking about Vic, aren’t you.
AM. Is that what, I am just looking at this.
DE. What do they say about a flock of birds?
AM. A gaggle of geese.
DE. Yeah.
AM. But it is got here that you actually did training for it.
DE. Yes that’s right, learned to fly in vics.
AM. Yes, got you.
DE. Because normally we flew alone, didn’t we?
AM. Yes within the stream.
DE. Yeah.
AM. And then you, what else have I got here, I’ve got one, I’ve got a little note about when you were attacked by some fighters near Nuremburg.
DE. Yes, yes.
AM. Can you remember that one, I might be jumping about too much now, and then the other note I’ve got is em that in April 1945 Kelstern closed, and you had to move to Scampton.
DE. Yes.
AM. And then your very last Operation was Heligoland?
DE. Heligoland yes, a submarine base. I remember running in over that and we weren’t leaders, we were in the main stream and eh we were dropping big stuff on there. Eh and I mean the ones with the em, ten tonners, they used to go through thirty eight feet of concrete and very often didn’t explode a few days later they would explode wouldn’t they. It was designed for that, what do you call it, delayed action yeah, ’cause we, we done one or two trips to em the Dortmund Emms Canal and eh we used to let the water out the canal [laugh] bad people.
AM. That’s one way of putting it.
DE. All eh, you see the submarine engines were made by MAN, M.A.N [spelt out name], you have seen the lorries and that was, that was down there anyway, Dortmund or somewhere and eh, they always used to use barges taking these submarine engines to Bremen to be fitted to submarines and they were all stuck there with no water in [laugh].
AM. That was the idea.
DE. Have a good trip, yeah, yeah [laugh].
AM. And that was it so that was April ’45, that last one.
DE. Yeah.
Unknown. When was VE day?
AM. VE Day was in May, early May, wasn’t it?
DE. Something like that, I know where it starts, the last operation and the next was delivering food.
AM. For the Operation Manna. How many of those did you do?
DE. How many?
AM. Did you just do one Operation Manna?
DE. No, we did two or three, did more than one anyway.
AM. ‘Cause you were flying really low level in Operation Manna weren’t you. What was that actually, after all that year of the full tour of dropping bombs and all the rest of it, now you’re dropping food?
DE. Well we was dropping food to this Hospital. I was stood in the astrodome and we were lower than the nurses standing on the roof.
AM. I know it was really low level, I didn’t know it was that low, I knew it was really low level.
DE. And you know, some years later, I take my wife to Buxton, to the theatre there, you know the theatre? I drove into this car park, lined up and got out and a Volvo came in and what a pigs ear he was making of trying to, so I got out and I am saying, ‘come on, come on’, you know, then I notice it’s Dutch number plates. So I said to him ‘are you a Dutchman then?’ and he said, ‘yes, have you been to Holland?’ I said, ‘I have been over it a time or two’, he said, ‘have you?’ I said, ‘yes, the last time I went I was delivering food’. He said ‘I’ve got some photographs’, he said, ‘I had hidden a box brownie camera’, and he’d taken photographs of us. He said, ‘I have got it with me and you can have them’.
AM. That’s brilliant.
DE. That was marvellous that was, wasn’t it?
AM. What was it, I can’t imagine what that must have been like to be flying so low that you could actually see the people waiting and, and for the food, because they were starving weren’t they?
DE. Oh, we would have killed them if we had dropped it on them, Aye, we were dropping six ton, lots and eh, we went along this low, we went Hague, I think we went somewhere else as well, I think it was the Hague.
AM. Yes, we’ve got the Hague here ‘Spam Droppings’.
DE. Spam Droppings, we call it spam yeah [laugh], and eh we used to, we dropped that and then we dropped, we went across low like that, if we could have put our wheels down landed on it, it was that low. Well, eh was perhaps thirteen, thirteen foot diameter [unclear] props they were and as soon as we let the things go, turned it over and went straight up. We was told not to fire at the defences because they had agreed not to fire at us and I remember Titch saying, ‘the buggers were going with us all the time’, their guns you know. He said, ‘and I got ‘em lined up as well’ [laugh].
AM. Just in case.
DE. Yeah, but the only one that was any trouble was an American. They fired at some of the defences and they shot him down. Serves him right, the agreement was made, it should have been kept.
AM. They called it ‘Chow hand’ didn’t they, we called it ‘Operation Manna’ and the Americans called it ‘Chow hand’.
DE. They would do. When we got a, we used to land at different places if there was fog like Sturgate, the Americans used to land with us in case, if their bases were fog bound and I remember once, this young airman, he attached himself to me, this American airman. ‘Will you show us a Lancaster?’ ‘Yes, I will show you a Lancaster’, and then there were the bomb trains starting and he said ‘where are all these going from?’ I said, ‘they are going to’, I said, ‘wait a minute, this is ours, look’. I said, ‘climb on one of those bombs and you will have a ride round’, so we rode round into the, into our dispersal and he lay on that aircraft until the last one was bombed. He couldn’t believe it, ‘cause I don’t know we eh, four thousand pounder, sixteen five hundreds eh about two and a half thousand pounds of incendiaries, that was a usual load you see. He watched every one hung cause he couldn’t have believed that lot would have done the whole lot of and American squadron, ‘cause their bomb load, maximum bomb load is four thousand pounds. Well, ours was twenty two thousand pounds.
Unknown. What on a Flying Fortress?
DE. Pardon?
Unknown. What on a Flying Fortress, American.
DE. And the German, what do you call that, Dornier 17 isn’t it.
AM. Dornier, yeah.
DE. That was four thousand pound load as well, they couldn’t carry anything.
AM. Well the Lancaster basically was a flying bomb factory, machine wasn’t it.
DE. That is what it was.
AM. And when you stand under it and look at when the bomb doors are open.
DE. Thirty three feet long.
AM. Yeah it is, so have I missed any stories about various operations. Can you think of any more that I have missed that you need to tell me about?
Unknown. The one that you were trying to get Derek was the fighter one, that was the one when Pete went into the Corkscrew, you know, the manoeuvres that got the fighters off the tail.
DE. Eh, I think it was Bochum, yes Bochum. It was a [unclear] because I have got a lot of.
AM. I think Bochum is just after the photographs.
DE. I see it, yes.
Unknown. I know you told me before, Derek, about how Peter had to turn, turn the Lancaster into, you know, the Corkscrew turn, upside down.
DE. We used to turn a Lancaster down like that and roll it, somebody says to me, ‘you can’t roll a Lancaster’. I said, ‘you bloody can with a fighter at the back of you’ [laugh]. I don’t know how many, I can’t remember how many fighter attacks I dealt with, because I dealt with them before the gunners saw them. Yeah look, ninety minutes to the target, Titch in the tail shouts, ‘fighter, fighter!!’
AM. Eight o’clock.
DE. ‘Eight o’clock level, corkscrew, left, go!’
AM. So describe that to me what that felt like from where you were sat?
DE. Where I was sat, I was glued to a screen, eh, well I used to do this with the armchair to hold myself there, ‘cause I’d be swung about and eh Its corkscrew left, right wing down, nose down, dive four thousand feet eh, and then eh, change the wing so that wing was down and then up and that’s why the corkscrew was like that you see, yeah. And that’s why we hoped that the fighters wouldn’t follow us em, and we through them off most we had, oh we had about twelve fighter attacks so we got used to it [laugh]. But with two very good gunners, they were, they were, I mean Torrey the Mid Upper Gunner shot two down, and he shot two down because em, ‘cause they got too close and he said ‘I waited’ and I was saying to him, ‘cause I was vectoring him onto this fighter coming in, and eh I said to him, ‘he has gone out to starboard but he is just, I can see him, he is just below the em, horizon’. He then said, ‘I can see him’, I said, ‘well watch him because he has no guns on top, he has got to fire out of his wings ‘cause he was a 110’, an eh we knew the German aircraft, we knew them very well, best thing for him to do was to study them. That, I can see him now, ‘cause I am up on top, looking, then I saw this fighter coming up and I said, ‘he is going to get his guns level on you, Torrey’, and Torrey let him have it, killed him, oh he killed him, killed him and eh that was five seconds to our demise. That coming up like that and he got him just before he got his guns level em, oh yes, em. Sometimes we got a bit of excitement.
AM. Ah, probably excitement you could have done without.
DE. Oh god, aye, yeah.
AM. And then it all just came to an end, VE Day, last operation. Just looking at your log book, after the Operation Manna, you did a couple of photographic em.
DE. Oh eh, yes in there you see, eh about ten of us nicked a Lancaster.
AM. Nicked a Lancaster?
DE. Borrowed one and then we, and what have I done now, called it?
AM. You have called it a Special Bombing Photographic.
DE. No, I didn’t.
AM. Was it later than that?
DE. Yeah.
AM. Let’s have a look.
DE. Oh we did a Cooks Tour as we called it, we borrowed an aircraft, well there were plenty [unclear] and I think it was about ten of us and we went round the Cooks Tour, up over the Ruhr and the targets we done and had a look at them, and we were shattered. We were shocked at the damage we’d done and eh fighter affiliation, that is you meet up with a Spitfire and it is trying, its got cameras and it is trying to shoot us down with cameras, yeah and that is where we learnt to fight night fighters. And then on 69 Reserve Flying School, I was, of all the flight crew, that was navigators, pilots, navigators, radio operators em, were given a five year call up if you like and em, they gave us an aircraft and we had a lovely time, this was after the war.
AM. Just before the after the war bit, so we have had VE day, you’ve nicked your aircraft and had a bit of fun going round looking at the bomb sites. How long, what, what happened to you then between then and demob, because it was usually quite a lengthy time wasn’t it?
DE. I don’t know why but eh I, I was posted to eh em, electronic school and I qualified as an electronic engineer then, and then I got on a fighter squadron, servicing their gear.
AM. In, in England.
DE. Yeah, and then I got posted to ruddy Scotland, Leuchars, do you know Leuchars?
AM. I don’t know it, but you talked about that right at the beginning.
DE. And eh -
AM. It’s Coastal Command isn’t it up there?
DE. Yes, it used to be Bomber Command and then it was Coastal Command. Because I think they took off from there and the adjacent station to bomb the ships in the fjords, that’s the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau and then em, I had been there a little bit and I was just about getting acclimatized I was posted to St. Leonards, the point of Cornwall.
Unknown. Penzance.
AM. About as far away as you could get.
DE. Yeah, and I thought to myself eh and I thought my demob number is number 53 and they are demobbing 45, ‘I’m not working’, I went. I went looking round the beach and I saw a bungalow for to let and I went in there and I didn’t turn up for work. But what I’d done was, I went into the, into the other aircrew that I was friendly with and I said, ‘book me into the mess will you, for each meal and sign Derek Evans’. Eh after a fortnight I thought, I wonder if they have missed me?
AM. So what did you do, just generally played about on the beach and had a rest?
DE. On the beach it was lovely, a bit of surfing and that, I was fit then and em, one morning I thought ‘I wonder if they’ve missed me?’ So I got on me bike and rode to the station, I went through a fence where the radar section was and somebody says, ‘the Adj. is looking for you’. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘Is he?’ I went in front of the Adj. and eh ‘you have been absent without leave’, I said, ‘no I haven’t, go and look at the meals register’. Well he couldn’t get anywhere so he said, ‘you had better go and see their Radar Officer in charge of the radar section’, and eh he said, ‘you have been absent without leave’, I said ‘no I haven’t’. Bit of an argument and I thought ‘bloody bloke, he has been here all the blinking war, telling me off’, and at the end of the argument, I said ‘what you need is a bit of air under your arse’ [laugh] flying.
AM. And he said?
DE. Put me on a charge for insubordination and I went in front of the CO, and he says, he says, ‘you shouldn’t demonstrate discipline like this’. He gave me a right ticking off. My demob came up then about a fortnight after and I went in front of the same Group Captain, and he says ‘will you sign on?’ I said ‘after what you have told me’, he said ‘I have got to talk in front of these buggers’. But he had the same medal ribbons as me and I knew what he’d done [laugh], then eh I went, I, I, left then and he says, ‘I’ll guarantee you promotion to Squadron Leader in five weeks if you sign on’. He says, ‘we are losing’, he said ‘you are experienced ground crew, experienced aircrew’. I said ‘you’ll be right now’, I said. He said ‘Squadron Leader’, and I said ‘no’ I said, ‘I am going back to my own patch where I served an apprenticeship’ and I did.
AM. And that’s what you did. Were you married by then Derek, did you meet your wife in the war, during the war or afterwards?
DE. After the war.
AM. It was after.
DE. I wouldn’t entertain [unclear]
AM. Of course, you are still only twenty two or twenty three at this point, you were still only a baby in relative terms.
DE. Twenty two and em yes, quite a few contacts with WAAFs especially in the, well that’s put it politely, and there was one or two wanted to marry and I says ‘do you know what job I am doing?’ I says ‘tomorrow I might be dead’, I said, ‘if anything happened you became pregnant’ [unclear]. I said ‘no, I won’t attach myself to anybody’ and I think I did right. I eh was posted to Verne, that is near Selby and there’s a Holding Unit. They had bods in there and they were saying ‘I need six so and so, right six out of these’, and eh I was, I was driving up past the racecourse in Doncaster which was, well my mother’s home was there, just near the racecourse and I saw this WAAF working, walking on her own and I pulled up and I says ‘hello, what are you doing here?’ She was one of the Kelstern teleprinter operators. She said ‘I have been posted to Verne’, I said, ‘that’s where I’m going, get in’, so I took her up there, and eh I did marry her actually, eventually. Me dad said to me, when I took her home the first time, ‘she’s no bloody good to you, you know’. My god, was he right, I didn’t last long with her.
AM. So this wasn’t Edna then. That wasn’t Edna then because I know that your wife that you have been married to for a long time, was Edna.
DE. No, I don’t know if it is for publication actually. She was a chemist was Edna and she was in, worked in Boots, just down, and I managed an office equipment shop, just above and we just used to say ‘hello’, you know, nothing and eh, I was living with me father and I was in the pub one night and I used to meet all the builders and business folks, ‘cause I used to collect business, you see. And em, ah, I am trying to think of his name now, Terry it was, anyway I said to him ‘Are you building any houses?’ He said, ‘I have got whole estate going at ‘em’. I said, ‘have you anything cheap?’ He said, ‘Well I have a very nice bungalow, er, next to the field which we are not building on’, I said, “oh, what do you want for it?’ and he said, “two and a half thousand pounds’. I said, ‘I’ll have it’, and I bought it off him in the pub [laugh]. I move in there and I was in there for a bit and eh I kept seeing Edna, I used to chat with her, nothing extraordinary. She said ‘What have you done then?’ I said ‘I have moved from me fathers’ place, I’ve bought a bungalow in [unclear], a brand new one’. ‘Oh’, she said, ‘what’s that address?’ Anyway, bless her, I am having my dinner one day, I used to go, it wasn’t far from where I worked. She knocks at the door, she had all her cases with her. I said ‘what are you doing?’ She said ‘I’ve come to live with you’ [laugh].
Unknown. That’s very forward.
AM. And that was that?
DE. Oh, I took her in and that was it, yeah and I was with her, I have been with her sixty odd years, sixty six years.
AM. How did the, you know, I know you, you talked about what you did after the war, but you know the model building, how did the model building come about?
DE. Well. I used to build models, I have built hundreds, ships, aircraft.
AM. As a hobby, this is a hobby, not as a job.
DE. Yes, and I eh, a friend of mine said, he was one of the officials at the brewery, John Smiths, and I said ‘have you got any property you are getting rid of for nought?’ And he said, “yes, got a nice one in Silver Street, a nice’, but he said ‘but Legards are in it’, but he said, ‘their things coming to an end’. He said, ‘so you had better put in a thing’, so I had a look at it and I thought, ‘this would make a good shop’. I don’t know what, I don’t know what I was thinking of, and then, and then I thought a model shop, yeah, a model shop. Em, the bloke who’s in it, what they call him, I don’t really know him now but, he says ‘Oh, your lease is coming to an end’, ‘cause I rented it from him for a week or two, and he says ‘the lease is, so your rent will have to go up’, so I said to him, ‘why, has your landlord put your rent up?’ ‘No, I am going to see him’. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘you had better come back to me and tell me how much you want more’. He came back to me and said ‘you cheeky bugger, you own the place’.
AM. You are the landlord [laugh] and I think on that note.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Derek Carington Evans
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-14
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AEvansDC160714, PEvansDC1602
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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01:42:07 audio recording
Description
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Derek was born on June 20th 1924 in Edlington near Doncaster, volunteering as aircrew at the age of 17.
After leaving school at the age of 14, Derek delivered books in and around Doncaster before going down to the Royal Air Force Recruitment Centre in Doncaster and signing up for service after developing a love of aviation after seeing Vimmies and Heyfords.
Derek passed his exams for a pilot, however trained as a wireless operator because of his knowledge of Morse code. When he was crewed up, his team flew in Wellingtons at RAF Finningley, with 18 Operational Training Unit.
Derek then was transferred to a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Blyton, where he worked on Halifaxes, before being posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern, flying on Lancasters.
He completed operations to Essen, Dortmund, Cologne and also targeted the oil refineries. Derek also took part in Operation Manna, dropping supplies in Holland.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Essen
Netherlands
Germany
18 OTU
625 Squadron
Absent Without Leave
aircrew
Anson
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Dominie
FIDO
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military discipline
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Blyton
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
superstition
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/569/8837/AForsythR160214.2.mp3
8c957767bac5297ef7b0921f68b6b9c2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Forsyth, Robert
R Forsyth
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Forsyth, R
Description
An account of the resource
Three Items. An oral history interview with Robert Forsyth (1921 - 2018, 201802 Royal Air Force) and two photographs. He flew 13 operations as a navigator with 156 Pathfinders before the end of the war, Subsequently he served on 35 Squadron and flew on the victory flypast in 1945.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert Forsyth and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2016-02-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JF: It was just at the beginning of the war, the war started and I did this three-month course, and he said if I go down every Saturday morning to Drem airport, and he’ll fly [unclear] and they had down there a Tiger Moth so I went down there on a Saturday afternoon. Drem was just a grass strip field, it wasn’t a major airfield.
I: No. Were you in the Sea Cadets?
RF: I was in the ATC Sea Cadets and I spoke to the pilot and he said, ‘Sure, up you come’. I climbed into this Tiger Moth, it was a two-seater thing you know, a bi-plane.
I: Yes.
RF: And we went off and flew around North Berwick, and I wasn’t interested in flying, we just flew it along, we run onto some cumulous. I can remember going to Harrogate anyway. Then we set off to er ‒, it won’t be in my file because ‒, how did I come to 156 Squadron?
I: You must have gone via an OTU.
JF: Yes.
I: Operational Training Unit?
JF: Yes. OTU at Warboys, I think it was called.
I: Warboys.
JF: And we did Pathfinder navigational training there and then I was sent to 156 Squadron at Upwood, which was an operational squadron doing pathfinding with the squadron over Germany usually, and that was of course an exciting time.
Q: How many ops did you do with 156 Squadron?
JF: I only did about thirteen I think, if I remember right. I marked them in this thing, and then the war came to an end.
I: That would have been late ’44, early ’45?
JF: Yes.
I: So, you did thirteen ops with 156 and then the war finished?
JF: Yes, from various places in Germany.
I: But then you might have been involved in flying back prisoners of war and all this sort of thing?
JF: I had written down the places that were marked. These were the operations; Gelsenkirchen and Potsdam and places like that, which was a long flight Potsdam. Then the war finished, it came to an end, and oh, just before it ended, we were used to fly food to Holland.
I: Operation Manna, yeah.
JF: Manna, that was it, and we had a BBC man with us and I did a report to the BBC for this Manna thing, which was very interesting because it was ‒, the war was ‒, it was the day before the war finished and we were flying at very low level and dropping this food and the people were all out on their roofs waving.
I: Waving, what a wonderful thing that was for the Dutch.
JF: Yes, I remember we got a sweet ration, when you were for so long, I made it into a kind of parachute with my hanky and dropped it out the plane, hoping some boy would get it in Holland [unclear], how nice that was. How much they enjoyed getting it. They were starving of course, the people, so that was that. Then there was an interim when we was in no man’s land.
I: Op Exodus.
JF: Exodus, yeah, and we did that for a wee while and so did flights with the crew to show them what ‒
I: That’s right, ground crews went on these Cook’s Tours.
JF: Cook’s Tours, that was it, these are in this book. We went round, just short flights, to let them see the ‒.
I: Then there was the Goodwood, wasn’t there? There was the raid on Caen?
JF: What?
I: There was the Operation Goodwood. The raid on Caen. You went on that as well, didn’t you?
JF: Yes, we went to quite a few places and then the war was coming to an end and they decided to reduce squadrons to a hundred, ‘cause we were in 156 and this started a very exciting time for me. We were sent to 35 Squadron, the whole unit was sent to 35 Squadron, which is that photograph there, Wing Commander Craig I remember, and we were fiddled about for a while. They got us doing formation flying, which was very difficult with Lancasters.
I: Especially when you were used to flying at night, not formatting or anything.
JF: This was through the day and we went down each day over Harris’s offices and we had to be there at a certain time and had to be in formation, and other squadrons were doing that of course, and all this was to do with a fly past on VE Day in London. And it was rather nerve-racking for a navigator in a big squadron, and you will see photographs of that flight over London. As a result of that success, and apparently, we seemed to be the best at it ‒
I: Oh, that’s a big fly past, isn’t it?
JF: Flying over London. That was on the way to Buckingham Palace on VE Day, I would be about here you see? Rather nerve-racking for the navigator. Although we had to get there at the right time and so on.
I: Right, of course.
JF: So we did that and I’m sure it was as a result of that the RAF got an invitation from America, American Air Force, to celebrate their 39th anniversary of the formation of the American Air Force, which American Army Air Force, which later became the Air Force and that’s ‒, I have a big book there and that was an amazing experience because we ‒, and the whole squadron went and we went all round America, stopped at various ‒.
I: Goodwill tour and showing off the Lancasters.
JF: That’s right, we stopped for a week at various places, we laid the aircraft open for inspection and a great deal of hospitality, and taken round until we got to Los Angeles, where the final ceremony was, and they took us about there and of course, we’d stayed a week at each place which was very interesting.
I: For a young man, it was a tremendous opportunity.
JF: Yes, the hospitality was very good I must say, in fact, I wrote a bit about that and also to an American. I’m a member of the Forsyth clan and it’s quite strong in America, and ‒
I: So, you got involved in all of that.
JF: And amongst the one who writes in their newsletter asked if I’d write something about this tour of America.
I: Oh right.
JF: Along the lines of all the good hospitality we had, so I did that and you’ll find that in there too. That was our squadron. That was the formation flying.
I: So, there you were at the end of the war, when were you actually demobilized and sent back to civvy life?
JF: It was in November of, is that ’46?
I: ’46. November ’46.
JF: ‘Because I remember coming up in a plane to Glasgow and going in that night to the university to see the professor, to see if I could start on the architect’s course.
I: And they said, OK?
JF: Although you had to have so many attendances by Christmas,’ If you do it, well, we’ll take you on all right’, and so I saved a year on others.
I: Oh excellent.
JF: At night and evening classes. The very day I came home, I was in the university.
I: Excellent.
JF: And got started and finally qualified or course as an architect.
I: Right, and that was your career?
JF: That was my RAF career finished. Now after that came the ‒, a Scottish air show, and I went down there to see that and I joined their club.
I: Is that the one at Prestwick?
JF: Yeah, they took part at Prestwick and they had aircraft there, and I’ve got a photograph of one of them too. After that, I joined the official club.
I: Right.
JF: You see? And there.
I: So, you’ve kept up an active interest.
JF: The official RAF Memorial Club and I joined that. That was just my crew.
I: So that was you, so you kept the interest in aviation and developed your career as an architect?
JF: That’s right, I did that ‘til I retired and as an architect ‒, I put it in here, one of the things I was proud of, the school I attended in Glasgow, that happened to be a circular school, a secondary school, a very large secondary school.
I: Smithycroft Secondary School 1968.
JF: Yes, I was very proud of that.
I: It’s a lovely building, very aesthetically pleasing. Is it still extant today?
JF: No. They knocked it down.
I: They knocked it down? Vandals.
JF: No, no [slight laugh].
I: It was getting a bit aged.
JF: Yes.
I: Still, it was pretty avant garde for its time, wasn’t it?
JF: It was, yes, it was well thought of at that time.
I: Excellent. You got an architectural award for that I hope.
JF: I enjoyed doing that and I was in my own profession I became President of the Glasgow Institute of Architects. That was our crew.
I: Yeah, tell me about your crew. At the OTU, at Warboys, sorry where you crewed up, when my uncle crewed up at the 11 OTU at Kinloss, sorry 1902 at Kinloss, they put them all in a big hangar, wireless operators, you know, gunners, pilots, navigators, bomb aimers and they just found people they liked, and they liked the look of them and did well on their course and they formed a crew from there.
JF: Well, that wasn’t what happened at ‒.
I: You were actually posted to Pathfinders?
JF: Posted to 156 Squadron and there was always one or two planes failed to return, it was rather sad really and ‒, or they had a need to piece together crews, which they did, they introduced us to various people and would you like to join the crew of this chap? And I did this.
I: OK, so it was more that you were selected to join certain crews.
JF: We got on well together.
I: It was a similar thing but more concentrated in your case.
JF: And we formed a crew and we stayed as a crew.
I: And were you all an officer crew?
JF: No, the pilot was, of course, I wasn’t at that time, I was a flight sergeant. The engineer was a flight sergeant, actually.
I: And there’s an officer there.
JF: That’s him, and there’s the mid upper gunner and the wireless operator, they were flight sergeants.
I: And you had a dog. Was that the mascot?
JF: That was the pilot’s dog. It was just a dog he had.
I: And they had a lot of dogs, didn’t they? Following Guy Gibson’s example.
JF: [Slight laugh] Yes that’s right so we stayed together as a crew and we did very well, and then we had this dramatic change to go to America and that formed another crew. I had a different pilot then.
I: So, when you came back in November ’46, you were demobbed.
JF: Yes, but the thing about America was, we had to fly to America.
I: Yes, of course, via Gander and all over that route. It would have been the old ferry route, wouldn’t it? It would have been the old air bridge ferry? Prestwick, Gander.
JF: Being navigator, we had to stop at the Azores on the way because of the petrol, and I had to find the Azores, which is a very small island.
I: Gosh.
JF: In the middle of the Atlantic. The Azores has a very high mountain in the middle.
I: Volcanic mountain.
JF: Called Pico and my pilot was getting very nervous about finding this.
I: There’s a lot of distance done and there’s a lot of sea down there and we haven’t found the Azores yet, come on nav.
JF: [Slight laugh] that’s right, didn’t like the look of it, but we got there all right, then to Gander in Newfoundland.
I: Was there, in those days there was no real navigational aids of any sort, a beacon and dead reckoning I suppose
JF: Yes, and using the compass.
I: The sextant.
JF: The sextant.
I: The astrodome a lot.
JF: I’ve got that among these papers, I’ve got the log that I used, filled it in as I used it, you know.
I: That’s fascinating.
JF: If you want to take that away with you.
I: Well, I’ll have a look now.
JF: You know what it is now, I’ve told you.
I: Well, I think that more or less finishes this, so we’ll stop that now.
JF: Right.
I: And I’ll play it back just to make sure it’s taken.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert Forsyth
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bruce Blanche
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-14
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AForsythR160214
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:15:17 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Robert was in the Air Training Corps (Sea Cadets). From the Operational Training Unit at RAF Warboys where he did pathfinder navigational training, Robert joined 156 Squadron at RAF Upwood. They did around 13 pathfinding operations, usually over Germany, including Gelsenkirchen and Potsdam. Robert participated in Operation Manna, Operation Exodus, Cook’s Tours, and Operation Goodwill.
His whole unit was sent to 35 Squadron to do formation flying in the Lancasters in preparation for a fly-past on VE Day. They were subsequently invited to America.
Robert demobilised in November 1946.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1945-05-08
1946-11
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--London
Germany
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Potsdam
United States
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
Vivienne Tincombe
156 Squadron
35 Squadron
aircrew
animal
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Goodwill tour of the United States (1946)
Lancaster
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Pathfinders
RAF Upwood
RAF Warboys
Tiger Moth
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/593/8862/PKempMWD1603.2.jpg
915316febaf8fa093e9e3d6664bf2e5a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/593/8862/AKempM160425.1.mp3
98c9f86b0b70f1dafa1862ce137aa0b4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kemp, Maurice
Maurice William Denton Kemp
M W D Kemp
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Kemp, M
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Maurice Kemp (1925 - 2016, 2221885 Royal Air Force), a list of operations and photographs. He served as a mid upper gunner on Lancaster with 115 Squadron in 1945. He carried out 9 operations and then took part in operations Manna and Exodus.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by aurice Kemp and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: This is Gary Rushbrooke for the Bomber Command Association, I’m with Flight Sergeant Maurice Kemp at his home near Boston in Lincolnshire, 25th April 2016. And Maurice could you just tell me a little bit about yourself, when you were born, where you born?
MK: Yeah I was born at West Keal near West Keal Church up up the top of the road there.
GR: Oh so local.
MK: And I was there till I was about six months old, and then we moved down to a well not really a smallholding but we’d a few acres of land, kept poultry, had a couple of milk cows to make butter, and that’s where I lived until I was about thirteen.
GR: So was mum and dad, dad was a farmer?
MK: Well he was a farm labourer, a farm labourer really but he did have a few acres of land.
GR: Oh right.
MK: You know which he did part time little bit on the side like as well as he went to work during the day and did that at night.
GR: Yes.
MK: I think we’d about eleven acres of grass and two acres of what you would call arable.
GR: Yes. Brothers and sisters?
MK: I had, I had a half-brother, he was seven years older than me, he was illegitimate, my mother had him when she was in the First World War, she was in London in service during the First World War and he was born in 1918. And I stopped there moved to New Leake in 1938, we’ve generally I worked on the land a little bit, I worked on Coningsby Aerodrome for quite a long time in the building process.
GR: So you helped to build?
MK: I helped to build Coningsby Aerodrome.
GR: The aerodrome.
MK: And I was there until such time as it was virtually completed. By that time I was getting on to be seventeen years and I got a driving licence and I started lorry driving the day I was seventeen. I did that for.
GR: Was that working for a local company?
MK: Yeah for a small, well a chap who had three lorries.
GR: Yes.
MK: And I worked for him until such time as I went in the Air Force, and I was in the Air Force a bit less than four years I think.
GR: Did you, obviously you volunteered?
MK: Yeah, yeah, because I was volunteered and I was deferred until my age because going in as a gunner it was
GR: ‘Cos most chaps.
MK: You weren’t allowed to do.
GR: You’d be called up at eighteen?
MK: Eighteen.
GR: And you were allowed to volunteer at seventeen?
MK: Yeah. I was called up at eighteen and a half because you wasn’t allowed to fly on operate operations under nineteen.
GR: Right.
MK: And it was a six month course from starting in the Air Force to get in there and that’s what I did.
GR: Was that always the case then during the war or was it something that came in later on?
MK: I don’t know it was always the case but it was the case in mine. I went to a an Aircrew Reception Centre at at Edgbaston in Birmingham on a three day course, and I was then deferred you know. I I passed as a wireless operator gunner you know for that for that category and I finished up as a gunner. And er I was, I joined up on the 17th January 1944, and I was a year training I went to, I started off at in Lord’s Cricket Ground that’s where I joined up.
GR: Right.
MK: And I went from there to Bridgnorth in Shropshire and that was you know sort of what do you call it square bashing and messing about you know general things. And I moved from there to Walney Island that’s at at Barrow in Furness.
GR: Yes.
MK: And I did an air gunnery course there. From there I went to Silverstone, I went on Wellingtons at Silverstone and that’s where we was crewed up.
GR: That’s yeah, so that would have been five of you on the Wellington wouldn’t it?
MK: Yeah, yeah. There was, no six.
GR: Six was there?
MK: There was two gunners.
GR: Two gunners?
MK: Although there weren’t a mid-upper gunner, there was two gunners ‘cos we was we was getting prepared for Lancasters really, well we was and I was there at, for I don’t a few months, and we was moved out to a new satellite aerodrome just up the road from Silverstone.
GR: You know when you actually joined up was it to be an air gunner or did you have any aspirations of?
MK: Well, when I was I volunteered for aircrew.
GR: Yeah.
MK: That’s what you could do and it it comes down to education.
GR: Right.
MK: My education wasn’t pilot navigator class so I was drafted in to wireless operator/air gunner and I finished up being put in the air gunner category, and you know we did these, it was three days at this test in Birmingham and they after you been and done all the courses they channelled you into what they wanted you to be and I was to an air gunner. And then we was told we wouldn’t be called up until we were eighteen and a half which I was eighteen and a half on the 16th January, and I was called up on the 17th. And then progressed through there and by the time I got passed out it was early ’45 when I got on squadron.
GR: Right. Did you end up going to Heavy Conversion Unit?
MK: Oh yes.
GR: Yes. Was it Lancaster Finishing School?
MK: Well the first, the first Heavy Conversion Unit I went to was at Stradishall and it was on Stirlings, now that was a bloody education never you mind. And it was the middle of us gunners privilege to wind the undercarriage up and down there’d no hydraulic, it was, it was a marathon of job.
GR: Right, well that’s something I didn’t know, so you had to wind up.
MK: Yes I did. [turning pages of book].
GR: We are just looking at the log book.
MK: And that’s Silverstone, it was just after that.
GR: Yes.
MK: Twelve and a half hours I was on Stirlings, there we are that’s what I did on Stirlings, and then we was moved from there to North Luffenham on Lancasters.
GR: Yes, so that was 1653 Conversion Unit?
MK: Yes that was the conversion Heavy Conversion Unit and then I went to North Luffenham.
GR: Yes.
MK: And that’s where I converted onto Lancasters.
GR: And that was a better aircraft?
MK: Oh Christ, the Stirling was, it really it was I mean I was well eighteen, eighteen near enough nineteen, and it was it was bloody horses work winding that undercarriage, and if you look at that they were all circuits and landings.
GR: Yes.
MK: You did a circuit, wind the undercarriage up, round you went, flew, wound the bugger down and by the time you’d done a couple of hours of that you was knackered, absolutely knackered.
GR: And presumably that was when they were using Stirlings ‘cos it had been taken out of frontline operations in 1943.
MK: It was a stepping stone that’s all it was, and I mean when we got on the Lancs well of course that was automatic, because that was hard word.
GR: [laughs] So I’m looking at the log book and I would say most of well yeah January and a bit of February you were at Lancaster Finishing School?
MK: Yes, that’s 115 Squadron.
GR: Then off to Witchford
MK: Yeah.
GR: Which is 115 Squadron and I think the first flight you took there was on the 21st February ‘45. How did you feel, I mean obviously at the time you probably knew war was coming to a close obviously we’d invaded Europe and we’re pushing up into Germany so was it a case of you wanted to get on to operations before the war finished or was it the other way?
MK: Yes you were keen to get on operations but what I’ve got to say in all fairness the twelve ops I did I was in nowhere near the danger the blokes had been in earlier.
GR: Yeah, yeah.
MK: I mean I saw aircraft shot down, one of the photos which was I shall always remember seeing a Lancaster going down in flames and you could see the silhouette of the aircraft down in the flames you know that was at Potsdam.
GR: Was that daylight or?
MK: No no.
GR: Night time.
MK: No night time.
GR: Night time.
MK: Somewhere, here we are Potsdam, that one. That was a gentle reminder we was taking to the Nazis that the war was about over we were just it was a bit of a persuader that was the last one thousand bomber raid of the war.
GR: Right, that was on the 14th April 1945.
MK: We was led to believe that it was the last thousand bomber raid.
GR: Last thousand altogether yeah. I was just going to say were all your operations at night but?
MK: No, no.
GR: Heligoland was a daylight wasn’t it?
MK: The three red ones were at night, twice to Kiel and once to Potsdam I think it was, and the rest was daytime. I was in 3 Group and 3 Group specialised on daytime bombing mainly, 5 Group round in the Lincoln area they was the main night time.
GR: What was the first operation like obviously?
MK: Well, I can’t really remember like, I can remember going on and flying and sort of been bloody pleased when I got back home again. But, I was never, I never used me guns in action, I never had occasion to to use ‘em.
GR: Yeah, and I would think I mean obviously towards the end of the war the Luftwaffe whether it was a night time or day time were pretty thin.
MK: We was getting on top.
GR: Yes you were getting on top but the flak.
MK: Yeah.
GR: And certainly around looking at Kiel.
MK: Oh aye.
GR: They were still going strong.
MK: We we we got hit with flak you know, not enough to damage, but we did get flak damage.
GR: Yeah.
MK: Yeah.
GR: Yeah so not excited about being on operations and not afraid but probably something?
MK: Well you was, you was shall we put it like this you was all in it together, I mean I wouldn’t going to do a bombing raid on my own all the aircrew on the squadron were going want they, so you was just one of a band it’s like a gang going to a football match.
GR: Yeah.
MK: You know, you don’t look at the dangers you can’t look at the danger.
GR: No no no. So er more training although by into May ’45. So where was you when the war finished?
MK: Witchford.
GR: You was at Witchford. Was you on ops or?
MK: Oh aye. VE night we walked down into Ely it was about two and a half miles into Ely. We walked down and had a night out on the on the beer and stuff in in Ely, and you know that was I actually remember it was everybody we was, there was a pub we used to visit in Ely we got down there and it was full we couldn’t get in but it didn’t matter because the people was handing us beers through the window.
GR: Yeah. Obviously in uniform?
MK: Oh yeah, oh Christ aye.
GR: How did it feel you know you’d done nearly a year’s training?
MK: Yeah.
GR: And flown on operations for a month two month.
MK: Yeah that’s right. Yeah I mean I’ve got to say I was one of the lucky ones I wasn’t in when it was at its worst, but we was there and.
GR: Oh absolutely.
MK: If I’d been sent out to the Far East I could’ve still at been at it longer but you know ‘cos the war in the Far East carried on a bit longer.
GR: Was you approached to go on it was Tiger Force wasn’t it they got together to send out?
MK: Well, it was, it was you know, we was getting boss of ‘em like. I’ve a friend from New Leake he’s he was on Liberators on the Far East and he was still at it a little bit longer than me.
GR: So then I’m looking again at the beginning of May you took part in Operation Manna.
MK: Yeah.
GR: Which was supplying food.
MK: Food to The Hague.
GR: Yeah to the Dutch.
MK: Yeah.
GR: How did you feel about that it was a pleasure I presume?
MK: Well It was yeah. It was very interesting after the war we did such a lot of different things, we dropped supplies there, and then we we was flying troops home for leave from Italy and flying them back, I did that I can’t remember how many times seven or eight times, and we really enjoyed that. And then we did what they called Baedeker tours flying over the bomb damage of the of Germany and taking a few of.
GR: Taking a few of the ground crew round yeah yeah.
MK: So I went over the dams and things, and then we did a trip when the launch was of the Queen Queen Elizabeth, one of the big liners she was launched and we went out to fly to her and fly round her and back you know on an exercise that was good.
GR: ‘Cos there was a victory fly pass wasn’t there?
MK: Yeah I wasn’t on that.
GR: You wasn’t on that one yeah.
MK: [unclear] It was after that.
GR: So all the training went into a lot of logs. I know obviously Operation Manna there was four or five food drops.
MK: I did a lot of flying after the war it was till I was demobbed like you know then. There was a dodge [?] to Naples that was a trip, that was the trip when we lost the pilot’s luggage.
GR: Go on then tell us a little bit about that?
MK: Aye?
GR: Go on tell us a little bit about that?
MK: I’ve told you about it it’s that what was on the bottom there.
GR: Go on just repeat it again that was the pilot releasing the bomb bay doors by mistake.
MK: Yeah, we’d been airborne probably half an hour and he required the toilet, so he stood up from his pilot’s seat and as he was standing up his intercom cable caught the bomb door lever and opened the bomb doors, out went all the kit, and when we got to Naples I’d the privilege of telling the blokes that all the luggage is lost and that was a bit of a hairy few minutes.
GR: How many servicemen was there, how many servicemen did you get into the Lancaster?
MK: I would say about I would say about twelve or fifteen they just sat on the bomb bay top, on top of the bomb bay.
GR: ‘Cos it wasn’t the most –
MK: Oh no.
GR: It was a cramped aircraft?
MK: Well, no they’d.
GR: All right for a crew of seven?
MK: But they had they had room but they were just sat on the bomb bay they had no no comforts.
GR: Oh.
MK: Well it well it wasn’t you know.
GR: And when you were bringing the prisoners back?
MK: Yeah they was the same.
GR: The same thing they just sat.
MK: Yeah, yeah they just sat on the bomb bay. Whether you’ve been in a Lancaster?
GR: Yeah.
MK: You know where the rear gunner’s, there’s the bomb bay like here, and then there’s a big drop down in’t there.
GR: Yes.
MK: And they were sat from there to where the navigator and wireless operator sat, on on top there was a big flat area there, quite comfortable, room for well I would say you could have sat twenty on but I don’t think we brought quite as many as that, I can’t really be sure of the number.
GR: No no.
MK: No not to be honest I’ve an idea I would have said twelve or fourteen but I would stand corrected on that.
GR: So you lost all the servicemen’s kit?
MK: Yeah, we lost all their, all their personal kit yeah.
GR: When was you demobbed?
MK: Demobbed well I can’t remember.
GR: ’46?
MK: Yeah it was.
GR: Yeah.
MK: I can’t remember looking in here.
GR: Yeah. Was you given a chance to stay in or?
MK: Well there was, I I couldn’t get out quick enough, but by the time I’d come out I I realised I didn’t ought to have done. I’d have stopped in because there was an opportunity to re retrain and I would have liked to have stopped in and trained as a better tradesman gunnery for you know what I mean, but I didn’t do I come out. [unclear] ’44.
GR: It’s 1947 isn’t it, yeah 24th June 1947. I know some chaps who came out who were demobbed but then went back in again a couple of years later. What did you do after the war then?
MK: I was lorry driving.
GR: Lorry driving yeah.
MK: I was lorry driving for I don’t know about ten or eleven year and I finished up being transport manager for a company till I retired.
GR: Yeah. But you enjoyed your time in the RAF?
MK: Oh I did, oh I enjoyed it, I wouldn’t have missed it, no.
GR: Well that’s excellent, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maurice Kemp
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-25
Type
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Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AKempM160425
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:20:25 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Barrow-in-Furness
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Rutland
England--Suffolk
Germany
Germany--Potsdam
Germany--Kiel
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-01
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Before joining the Royal Air Force in January 1944, Maurice helped to build Coningsby aerodrome. After attending an Aircrew Reception Centre at Edgbaston, he passed as a wireless operator gunner, finishing as a gunner. He joined up at Lord’s cricket ground, went to RAF Bridgnorth, followed by an air gunnery course at RAF Walney Island. Maurice crewed up at RAF Silverstone on Wellingtons where the crew had two gunners. He went to a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Stradishall on Stirlings. RAF North Luffenham followed and a Lancaster Finishing School as part of 115 Squadron. Maurice finished at RAF Witchford.
Maurice carried out 12 operations but never used his guns in action. Most of the operations were in daylight although he flew night-time operations to Kiel and Potsdam. He then took part in Operation Manna and flew troops to and from Italy. Maurice also participated in tours for ground crew to witness the damage in Germany.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
115 Squadron
1653 HCU
air gunner
aircrew
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Barrow in Furness
RAF Coningsby
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Silverstone
RAF Stradishall
RAF Walney Island
RAF Witchford
Stirling
training
Wellington